Podcasts about because yeah

We all have fond memories of the first Dev Day in 2023:and the blip that followed soon after. As Ben Thompson has noted, this year's DevDay took a quieter, more intimate tone. No Satya, no livestream, (slightly fewer people?). Instead of putting ChatGPT announcements in DevDay as in 2023, o1 was announced 2 weeks prior, and DevDay 2024 was reserved purely for developer-facing API announcements, primarily the Realtime API, Vision Finetuning, Prompt Caching, and Model Distillation.However the larger venue and more spread out schedule did allow a lot more hallway conversations with attendees as well as more community presentations including our recent guest Alistair Pullen of Cosine as well as deeper dives from OpenAI including our recent guest Michelle Pokrass of the API Team. Thanks to OpenAI's warm collaboration (we particularly want to thank Lindsay McCallum Rémy!), we managed to record exclusive interviews with many of the main presenters of both the keynotes and breakout sessions. We present them in full in today's episode, together with a full lightly edited Q&A with Sam Altman.Show notes and related resourcesSome of these used in the final audio episode below* Simon Willison Live Blog* swyx live tweets and videos* Greg Kamradt coverage of Structured Output session, Scaling LLM Apps session* Fireside Chat Q&A with Sam AltmanTimestamps* [00:00:00] Intro by Suno.ai* [00:01:23] NotebookLM Recap of DevDay* [00:09:25] Ilan's Strawberry Demo with Realtime Voice Function Calling* [00:19:16] Olivier Godement, Head of Product, OpenAI* [00:36:57] Romain Huet, Head of DX, OpenAI* [00:47:08] Michelle Pokrass, API Tech Lead at OpenAI ft. Simon Willison* [01:04:45] Alistair Pullen, CEO, Cosine (Genie)* [01:18:31] Sam Altman + Kevin Weill Q&A* [02:03:07] Notebook LM Recap of PodcastTranscript[00:00:00] Suno AI: Under dev daylights, code ignites. Real time voice streams reach new heights. O1 and GPT, 4. 0 in flight. Fine tune the future, data in sight. Schema sync up, outputs precise. Distill the models, efficiency splice.[00:00:33] AI Charlie: Happy October. This is your AI co host, Charlie. One of our longest standing traditions is covering major AI and ML conferences in podcast format. Delving, yes delving, into the vibes of what it is like to be there stitched in with short samples of conversations with key players, just to help you feel like you were there.[00:00:54] AI Charlie: Covering this year's Dev Day was significantly more challenging because we were all requested not to record the opening keynotes. So, in place of the opening keynotes, we had the viral notebook LM Deep Dive crew, my new AI podcast nemesis, Give you a seven minute recap of everything that was announced.[00:01:15] AI Charlie: Of course, you can also check the show notes for details. I'll then come back with an explainer of all the interviews we have for you today. Watch out and take care.[00:01:23] NotebookLM Recap of DevDay[00:01:23] NotebookLM: All right, so we've got a pretty hefty stack of articles and blog posts here all about open ais. Dev day 2024.[00:01:32] NotebookLM 2: Yeah, lots to dig into there.[00:01:34] NotebookLM 2: Seems[00:01:34] NotebookLM: like you're really interested in what's new with AI.[00:01:36] NotebookLM 2: Definitely. And it seems like OpenAI had a lot to announce. New tools, changes to the company. It's a lot.[00:01:43] NotebookLM: It is. And especially since you're interested in how AI can be used in the real world, you know, practical applications, we'll focus on that.[00:01:51] NotebookLM: Perfect. Like, for example, this Real time API, they announced that, right? That seems like a big deal if we want AI to sound, well, less like a robot.[00:01:59] NotebookLM 2: It could be huge. The real time API could completely change how we, like, interact with AI. Like, imagine if your voice assistant could actually handle it if you interrupted it.[00:02:08] NotebookLM: Or, like, have an actual conversation.[00:02:10] NotebookLM 2: Right, not just these clunky back and forth things we're used to.[00:02:14] NotebookLM: And they actually showed it off, didn't they? I read something about a travel app, one for languages. Even one where the AI ordered takeout.[00:02:21] NotebookLM 2: Those demos were really interesting, and I think they show how this real time API can be used in so many ways.[00:02:28] NotebookLM 2: And the tech behind it is fascinating, by the way. It uses persistent WebSocket connections and this thing called function calling, so it can respond in real time.[00:02:38] NotebookLM: So the function calling thing, that sounds kind of complicated. Can you, like, explain how that works?[00:02:42] NotebookLM 2: So imagine giving the AI Access to this whole toolbox, right?[00:02:46] NotebookLM 2: Information, capabilities, all sorts of things. Okay. So take the travel agent demo, for example. With function calling, the AI can pull up details, let's say about Fort Mason, right, from some database. Like nearby restaurants, stuff like that.[00:02:59] NotebookLM: Ah, I get it. So instead of being limited to what it already knows, It can go and find the information it needs, like a human travel agent would.[00:03:07] NotebookLM 2: Precisely. And someone on Hacker News pointed out a cool detail. The API actually gives you a text version of what's being said. So you can store that, analyze it.[00:03:17] NotebookLM: That's smart. It seems like OpenAI put a lot of thought into making this API easy for developers to use. But, while we're on OpenAI, you know, Besides their tech, there's been some news about, like, internal changes, too.[00:03:30] NotebookLM: Didn't they say they're moving away from being a non profit?[00:03:32] NotebookLM 2: They did. And it's got everyone talking. It's a major shift. And it's only natural for people to wonder how that'll change things for OpenAI in the future. I mean, there are definitely some valid questions about this move to for profit. Like, will they have more money for research now?[00:03:46] NotebookLM 2: Probably. But will they, you know, care as much about making sure AI benefits everyone?[00:03:51] NotebookLM: Yeah, that's the big question, especially with all the, like, the leadership changes happening at OpenAI too, right? I read that their Chief Research Officer left, and their VP of Research, and even their CTO.[00:04:03] NotebookLM 2: It's true. A lot of people are connecting those departures with the changes in OpenAI's structure.[00:04:08] NotebookLM: And I guess it makes you wonder what's going on behind the scenes. But they are still putting out new stuff. Like this whole fine tuning thing really caught my eye.[00:04:17] NotebookLM 2: Right, fine tuning. It's essentially taking a pre trained AI model. And, like, customizing it.[00:04:23] NotebookLM: So instead of a general AI, you get one that's tailored for a specific job.[00:04:27] NotebookLM 2: Exactly. And that opens up so many possibilities, especially for businesses. Imagine you could train an AI on your company's data, you know, like how you communicate your brand guidelines.[00:04:37] NotebookLM: So it's like having an AI that's specifically trained for your company?[00:04:41] NotebookLM 2: That's the idea.[00:04:41] NotebookLM: And they're doing it with images now, too, right?[00:04:44] NotebookLM: Fine tuning with vision is what they called it.[00:04:46] NotebookLM 2: It's pretty incredible what they're doing with that, especially in fields like medicine.[00:04:50] NotebookLM: Like using AI to help doctors make diagnoses.[00:04:52] NotebookLM 2: Exactly. And AI could be trained on thousands of medical images, right? And then it could potentially spot things that even a trained doctor might miss.[00:05:03] NotebookLM: That's kind of scary, to be honest. What if it gets it wrong?[00:05:06] NotebookLM 2: Well, the idea isn't to replace doctors, but to give them another tool, you know, help them make better decisions.[00:05:12] NotebookLM: Okay, that makes sense. But training these AI models must be really expensive.[00:05:17] NotebookLM 2: It can be. All those tokens add up. But OpenAI announced something called automatic prompt caching.[00:05:23] Alex Volkov: Automatic what now? I don't think I came across that.[00:05:26] NotebookLM 2: So basically, if your AI sees a prompt that it's already seen before, OpenAI will give you a discount.[00:05:31] NotebookLM: Huh. Like a frequent buyer program for AI.[00:05:35] NotebookLM 2: Kind of, yeah. It's good that they're trying to make it more affordable. And they're also doing something called model distillation.[00:05:41] NotebookLM: Okay, now you're just using big words to sound smart. What's that?[00:05:45] NotebookLM 2: Think of it like like a recipe, right? You can take a really complex recipe and break it down to the essential parts.[00:05:50] NotebookLM: Make it simpler, but it still tastes the same.[00:05:53] NotebookLM 2: Yeah. And that's what model distillation is. You take a big, powerful AI model and create a smaller, more efficient version.[00:06:00] NotebookLM: So it's like lighter weight, but still just as capable.[00:06:03] NotebookLM 2: Exactly. And that means more people can actually use these powerful tools. They don't need, like, a supercomputer to run them.[00:06:10] NotebookLM: So they're making AI more accessible. That's great.[00:06:13] NotebookLM 2: It is. And speaking of powerful tools, they also talked about their new O1 model.[00:06:18] NotebookLM 2: That's the one they've been hyping up. The one that's supposed to be this big leap forward.[00:06:22] NotebookLM: Yeah, O1. It sounds pretty futuristic. Like, from what I read, it's not just a bigger, better language model.[00:06:28] NotebookLM 2: Right. It's a different porch.[00:06:29] NotebookLM: They're saying it can, like, actually reason, right? Think.[00:06:33] NotebookLM 2: It's trained differently.[00:06:34] NotebookLM 2: They used reinforcement learning with O1.[00:06:36] NotebookLM: So it's not just finding patterns in the data it's seen before.[00:06:40] NotebookLM 2: Not just that. It can actually learn from its mistakes. Get better at solving problems.[00:06:46] NotebookLM: So give me an example. What can O1 do that, say, GPT 4 can't?[00:06:51] NotebookLM 2: Well, OpenAI showed it doing some pretty impressive stuff with math, like advanced math.[00:06:56] NotebookLM 2: And coding, too. Complex coding. Things that even GPT 4 struggled with.[00:07:00] NotebookLM: So you're saying if I needed to, like, write a screenplay, I'd stick with GPT 4? But if I wanted to solve some crazy physics problem, O1 is what I'd use.[00:07:08] NotebookLM 2: Something like that, yeah. Although there is a trade off. O1 takes a lot more power to run, and it takes longer to get those impressive results.[00:07:17] NotebookLM: Hmm, makes sense. More power, more time, higher quality.[00:07:21] NotebookLM 2: Exactly.[00:07:22] NotebookLM: It sounds like it's still in development, though, right? Is there anything else they're planning to add to it?[00:07:26] NotebookLM 2: Oh, yeah. They mentioned system prompts, which will let developers, like, set some ground rules for how it behaves. And they're working on adding structured outputs and function calling.[00:07:38] Alex Volkov: Wait, structured outputs? Didn't we just talk about that? We[00:07:41] NotebookLM 2: did. That's the thing where the AI's output is formatted in a way that's easy to use.[00:07:47] NotebookLM: Right, right. So you don't have to spend all day trying to make sense of what it gives you. It's good that they're thinking about that stuff.[00:07:53] NotebookLM 2: It's about making these tools usable.[00:07:56] NotebookLM 2: And speaking of that, Dev Day finished up with this really interesting talk. Sam Altman, the CEO of OpenAI, And Kevin Weil, their new chief product officer. They talked about, like, the big picture for AI.[00:08:09] NotebookLM: Yeah, they did, didn't they? Anything interesting come up?[00:08:12] NotebookLM 2: Well, Altman talked about moving past this whole AGI term, Artificial General Intelligence.[00:08:18] NotebookLM: I can see why. It's kind of a loaded term, isn't it?[00:08:20] NotebookLM 2: He thinks it's become a bit of a buzzword, and people don't really understand what it means.[00:08:24] NotebookLM: So are they saying they're not trying to build AGI anymore?[00:08:28] NotebookLM 2: It's more like they're saying they're focused on just Making AI better, constantly improving it, not worrying about putting it in a box.[00:08:36] NotebookLM: That makes sense. Keep pushing the limits.[00:08:38] NotebookLM 2: Exactly. But they were also very clear about doing it responsibly. They talked a lot about safety and ethics.[00:08:43] NotebookLM: Yeah, that's important.[00:08:44] NotebookLM 2: They said they were going to be very careful. About how they release new features.[00:08:48] NotebookLM: Good! Because this stuff is powerful.[00:08:51] NotebookLM 2: It is. It was a lot to take in, this whole Dev Day event.[00:08:54] NotebookLM 2: New tools, big changes at OpenAI, and these big questions about the future of AI.[00:08:59] NotebookLM: It was. But hopefully this deep dive helped make sense of some of it. At least, that's what we try to do here.[00:09:05] AI Charlie: Absolutely.[00:09:06] NotebookLM: Thanks for taking the deep dive with us.[00:09:08] AI Charlie: The biggest demo of the new Realtime API involved function calling with voice mode and buying chocolate covered strawberries from our friendly local OpenAI developer experience engineer and strawberry shop owner, Ilan Biggio.[00:09:21] AI Charlie: We'll first play you the audio of his demo and then go into a little interview with him.[00:09:25] Ilan's Strawberry Demo with Realtime Voice Function Calling[00:09:25] Romain Huet: Could you place a call and see if you could get us 400 strawberries delivered to the venue? But please keep that under 1500. I'm on it. We'll get those strawberries delivered for you.[00:09:47] Ilan: Hello? Hi there. Is this Ilan? I'm Romain's AI assistant. How is it going? Fantastic. Can you tell me what flavors of strawberry dips you have for me? Yeah, we have chocolate, vanilla, and we have peanut butter. Wait, how much would 400 chocolate covered strawberries cost? 400? Are you sure you want 400? Yes, 400 chocolate covered[00:10:14] swyx: strawberries.[00:10:15] Ilan: Wait,[00:10:16] swyx: how much[00:10:16] Ilan: would that be? I think that'll be around, like, 1, 415. 92.[00:10:25] Alex Volkov: Awesome. Let's go ahead and place the order for four chocolate covered strawberries.[00:10:31] Ilan: Great, where would you like that delivered? Please deliver them to the Gateway Pavilion at Fort Mason. And I'll be paying in cash.[00:10:42] Alex Volkov: Okay,[00:10:43] Ilan: sweet. So just to confirm, you want four strawberries?[00:10:45] Ilan: 400 chocolate covered strawberries to the Gateway Pavilion. Yes, that's perfect. And when can we expect delivery? Well, you guys are right nearby, so it'll be like, I don't know, 37 seconds? That's incredibly fast. Cool, you too.[00:11:09] swyx: Hi, Ilan, welcome to Lanespace. Oh, thank you. I just saw your amazing demos, had your amazing strawberries. You are dressed up, like, exactly like a strawberry salesman. Gotta have it all. What was the building on demo like? What was the story behind the demo?[00:11:22] swyx: It was really interesting. This is actually something I had been thinking about for months before the launch.[00:11:27] swyx: Like, having a, like, AI that can make phone calls is something like I've personally wanted for a long time. And so as soon as we launched internally, like, I started hacking on it. And then that sort of just started. We made it into like an internal demo, and then people found it really interesting, and then we thought how cool would it be to have this like on stage as, as one of the demos.[00:11:47] swyx: Yeah, would would you call out any technical issues building, like you were basically one of the first people ever to build with a voice mode API. Would you call out any issues like integrating it with Twilio like that, like you did with function calling, with like a form filling elements. I noticed that you had like intents of things to fulfill, and then.[00:12:07] swyx: When there's still missing info, the voice would prompt you, roleplaying the store guy.[00:12:13] swyx: Yeah, yeah, so, I think technically, there's like the whole, just working with audio and streams is a whole different beast. Like, even separate from like AI and this, this like, new capabilities, it's just, it's just tough.[00:12:26] swyx: Yeah, when you have a prompt, conversationally it'll just follow, like the, it was, Instead of like, kind of step by step to like ask the right questions based on like the like what the request was, right? The function calling itself is sort of tangential to that. Like, you have to prompt it to call the functions, but then handling it isn't too much different from, like, what you would do with assistant streaming or, like, chat completion streaming.[00:12:47] swyx: I think, like, the API feels very similar just to, like, if everything in the API was streaming, it actually feels quite familiar to that.[00:12:53] swyx: And then, function calling wise, I mean, does it work the same? I don't know. Like, I saw a lot of logs. You guys showed, like, in the playground, a lot of logs. What is in there?[00:13:03] swyx: What should people know?[00:13:04] swyx: Yeah, I mean, it is, like, the events may have different names than the streaming events that we have in chat completions, but they represent very similar things. It's things like, you know, function call started, argument started, it's like, here's like argument deltas, and then like function call done.[00:13:20] swyx: Conveniently we send one that has the full function, and then I just use that. Nice.[00:13:25] swyx: Yeah and then, like, what restrictions do, should people be aware of? Like, you know, I think, I think, before we recorded, we discussed a little bit about the sensitivities around basically calling random store owners and putting, putting like an AI on them.[00:13:40] swyx: Yeah, so there's, I think there's recent regulation on that, which is why we want to be like very, I guess, aware of, of You know, you can't just call anybody with AI, right? That's like just robocalling. You wouldn't want someone just calling you with AI.[00:13:54] swyx: I'm a developer, I'm about to do this on random people.[00:13:57] swyx: What laws am I about to break?[00:14:00] swyx: I forget what the governing body is, but you should, I think, Having consent of the person you're about to call, it always works. I, as the strawberry owner, have consented to like getting called with AI. I think past that you, you want to be careful. Definitely individuals are more sensitive than businesses.[00:14:19] swyx: I think businesses you have a little bit more leeway. Also, they're like, businesses I think have an incentive to want to receive AI phone calls. Especially if like, they're dealing with it. It's doing business. Right, like, it's more business. It's kind of like getting on a booking platform, right, you're exposed to more.[00:14:33] swyx: But, I think it's still very much like a gray area. Again, so. I think everybody should, you know, tread carefully, like, figure out what it is. I, I, I, the law is so recent, I didn't have enough time to, like, I'm also not a lawyer. Yeah, yeah, yeah, of course. Yeah.[00:14:49] swyx: Okay, cool fair enough. One other thing, this is kind of agentic.[00:14:52] swyx: Did you use a state machine at all? Did you use any framework? No. You just stick it in context and then just run it in a loop until it ends call?[00:15:01] swyx: Yeah, there isn't even a loop, like Okay. Because the API is just based on sessions. It's always just going to keep going. Every time you speak, it'll trigger a call.[00:15:11] swyx: And then after every function call was also invoked invoking like a generation. And so that is another difference here. It's like it's inherently almost like in a loop, be just by being in a session, right? No state machines needed. I'd say this is very similar to like, the notion of routines, where it's just like a list of steps.[00:15:29] swyx: And it, like, sticks to them softly, but usually pretty well. And the steps is the prompts? The steps, it's like the prompt, like the steps are in the prompt. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right, it's like step one, do this, step one, step two, do that. What if I want to change the system prompt halfway through the conversation?[00:15:44] swyx: You can. Okay. You can. To be honest, I have not played without two too much. Yeah,[00:15:47] swyx: yeah.[00:15:48] swyx: But, I know you can.[00:15:49] swyx: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Awesome. I noticed that you called it real time API, but not voice API. Mm hmm. So I assume that it's like real time API starting with voice. Right, I think that's what he said on the thing.[00:16:00] swyx: I can't imagine, like, what else is real[00:16:02] swyx: time? Well, I guess, to use ChatGPT's voice mode as an example, Like, we've demoed the video, right? Like, real time image, right? So, I'm not actually sure what timelines are, But I would expect, if I had to guess, That, like, that is probably the next thing that we're gonna be making.[00:16:17] swyx: You'd probably have to talk directly with the team building this. Sure. But, You can't promise their timelines. Yeah, yeah, yeah, right, exactly. But, like, given that this is the features that currently, Or that exists that we've demoed on Chachapiti. Yeah. There[00:16:29] swyx: will never be a[00:16:29] swyx: case where there's like a real time text API, right?[00:16:31] swyx: I don't Well, this is a real time text API. You can do text only on this. Oh. Yeah. I don't know why you would. But it's actually So text to text here doesn't quite make a lot of sense. I don't think you'll get a lot of latency gain. But, like, speech to text is really interesting. Because you can prevent You can prevent responses, like audio responses.[00:16:54] swyx: And force function calls. And so you can do stuff like UI control. That is like super super reliable. We had a lot of like, you know, un, like, we weren't sure how well this was gonna work because it's like, you have a voice answering. It's like a whole persona, right? Like, that's a little bit more, you know, risky.[00:17:10] swyx: But if you, like, cut out the audio outputs and make it so it always has to output a function, like you can end up with pretty pretty good, like, Pretty reliable, like, command like a command architecture. Yeah,[00:17:21] swyx: actually, that's the way I want to interact with a lot of these things as well. Like, one sided voice.[00:17:26] swyx: Yeah, you don't necessarily want to hear the[00:17:27] swyx: voice back. And like, sometimes it's like, yeah, I think having an output voice is great. But I feel like I don't always want to hear an output voice. I'd say usually I don't. But yeah, exactly, being able to speak to it is super sweet.[00:17:39] swyx: Cool. Do you want to comment on any of the other stuff that you announced?[00:17:41] swyx: From caching I noticed was like, I like the no code change part. I'm looking forward to the docs because I'm sure there's a lot of details on like, what you cache, how long you cache. Cause like, enthalpy caches were like 5 minutes. I was like, okay, but what if I don't make a call every 5 minutes?[00:17:56] swyx: Yeah,[00:17:56] swyx: to be super honest with you, I've been so caught up with the real time API and making the demo that I haven't read up on the other stuff. Launches too much. I mean, I'm aware of them, but I think I'm excited to see how all distillation works. That's something that we've been doing like, I don't know, I've been like doing it between our models for a while And I've seen really good results like I've done back in a day like from GPT 4 to GPT 3.[00:18:19] swyx: 5 And got like, like pretty much the same level of like function calling with like hundreds of functions So that was super super compelling So, I feel like easier distillation, I'm really excited for. I see. Is it a tool?[00:18:31] swyx: So, I saw evals. Yeah. Like, what is the distillation product? It wasn't super clear, to be honest.[00:18:36] swyx: I, I think I want to, I want to let that team, I want to let that team talk about it. Okay,[00:18:40] swyx: alright. Well, I appreciate you jumping on. Yeah, of course. Amazing demo. It was beautifully designed. I'm sure that was part of you and Roman, and[00:18:47] swyx: Yeah, I guess, shout out to like, the first people to like, creators of Wanderlust, originally, were like, Simon and Carolis, and then like, I took it and built the voice component and the voice calling components.[00:18:59] swyx: Yeah, so it's been a big team effort. And like the entire PI team for like Debugging everything as it's been going on. It's been, it's been so good working with them. Yeah, you're the first consumers on the DX[00:19:07] swyx: team. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, the classic role of what we do there. Yeah. Okay, yeah, anything else? Any other call to action?[00:19:13] swyx: No, enjoy Dev Day. Thank you. Yeah. That's it.[00:19:16] Olivier Godement, Head of Product, OpenAI[00:19:16] AI Charlie: The latent space crew then talked to Olivier Godmont, head of product for the OpenAI platform, who led the entire Dev Day keynote and introduced all the major new features and updates that we talked about today.[00:19:28] swyx: Okay, so we are here with Olivier Godmont. That's right.[00:19:32] swyx: I don't pronounce French. That's fine. It was perfect. And it was amazing to see your keynote today. What was the back story of, of preparing something like this? Preparing, like, Dev Day? It[00:19:43] Olivier Godement: essentially came from a couple of places. Number one, excellent reception from last year's Dev Day.[00:19:48] Olivier Godement: Developers, startup founders, researchers want to spend more time with OpenAI, and we want to spend more time with them as well. And so for us, like, it was a no brainer, frankly, to do it again, like, you know, like a nice conference. The second thing is going global. We've done a few events like in Paris and like a few other like, you know, non European, non American countries.[00:20:05] Olivier Godement: And so this year we're doing SF, Singapore, and London. To frankly just meet more developers.[00:20:10] swyx: Yeah, I'm very excited for the Singapore one.[00:20:12] Olivier Godement: Ah,[00:20:12] swyx: yeah. Will you be[00:20:13] Olivier Godement: there?[00:20:14] swyx: I don't know. I don't know if I got an invite. No. I can't just talk to you. Yeah, like, and then there was some speculation around October 1st.[00:20:22] Olivier Godement: Yeah. Is it because[00:20:23] swyx: 01, October 1st? It[00:20:25] Olivier Godement: has nothing to do. I discovered the tweet yesterday where like, people are so creative. No one, there was no connection to October 1st. But in hindsight, that would have been a pretty good meme by Tiana. Okay.[00:20:37] swyx: Yeah, and you know, I think like, OpenAI's outreach to developers is something that I felt the whole in 2022, when like, you know, like, people were trying to build a chat GPT, and like, there was no function calling, all that stuff that you talked about in the past.[00:20:51] swyx: And that's why I started my own conference as like like, here's our little developer conference thing. And, but to see this OpenAI Dev Day now, and like to see so many developer oriented products coming to OpenAI, I think it's really encouraging.[00:21:02] Olivier Godement: Yeah, totally. It's that's what I said, essentially, like, developers are basically the people who make the best connection between the technology and, you know, the future, essentially.[00:21:14] Olivier Godement: Like, you know, essentially see a capability, see a low level, like, technology, and are like, hey, I see how that application or that use case that can be enabled. And so, in the direction of enabling, like, AGI, like, all of humanity, it's a no brainer for us, like, frankly, to partner with Devs.[00:21:31] Alessio: And most importantly, you almost never had waitlists, which, compared to like other releases, people usually, usually have.[00:21:38] Alessio: What is the, you know, you had from caching, you had real time voice API, we, you know, Shawn did a long Twitter thread, so people know the releases. Yeah. What is the thing that was like sneakily the hardest to actually get ready for, for that day, or like, what was the kind of like, you know, last 24 hours, anything that you didn't know was gonna work?[00:21:56] Olivier Godement: Yeah. The old Fairly, like, I would say, involved, like, features to ship. So the team has been working for a month, all of them. The one which I would say is the newest for OpenAI is the real time API. For a couple of reasons. I mean, one, you know, it's a new modality. Second, like, it's the first time that we have an actual, like, WebSocket based API.[00:22:16] Olivier Godement: And so, I would say that's the one that required, like, the most work over the month. To get right from a developer perspective and to also make sure that our existing safety mitigation that worked well with like real time audio in and audio out.[00:22:30] swyx: Yeah, what design choices or what was like the sort of design choices that you want to highlight?[00:22:35] swyx: Like, you know, like I think for me, like, WebSockets, you just receive a bunch of events. It's two way. I obviously don't have a ton of experience. I think a lot of developers are going to have to embrace this real time programming. Like, what are you designing for, or like, what advice would you have for developers exploring this?[00:22:51] Olivier Godement: The core design hypothesis was essentially, how do we enable, like, human level latency? We did a bunch of tests, like, on average, like, human beings, like, you know, takes, like, something like 300 milliseconds to converse with each other. And so that was the design principle, essentially. Like, working backward from that, and, you know, making the technology work.[00:23:11] Olivier Godement: And so we evaluated a few options, and WebSockets was the one that we landed on. So that was, like, one design choice. A few other, like, big design choices that we had to make prompt caching. Prompt caching, the design, like, target was automated from the get go. Like, zero code change from the developer.[00:23:27] Olivier Godement: That way you don't have to learn, like, what is a prompt prefix, and, you know, how long does a cache work, like, we just do it as much as we can, essentially. So that was a big design choice as well. And then finally, on distillation, like, and evaluation. The big design choice was something I learned at Skype, like in my previous job, like a philosophy around, like, a pit of success.[00:23:47] Olivier Godement: Like, what is essentially the, the, the minimum number of steps for the majority of developers to do the right thing? Because when you do evals on fat tuning, there are many, many ways, like, to mess it up, frankly, like, you know, and have, like, a crappy model, like, evals that tell, like, a wrong story. And so our whole design was, okay, we actually care about, like, helping people who don't have, like, that much experience, like, evaluating a model, like, get, like, in a few minutes, like, to a good spot.[00:24:11] Olivier Godement: And so how do we essentially enable that bit of success, like, in the product flow?[00:24:15] swyx: Yeah, yeah, I'm a little bit scared to fine tune especially for vision, because I don't know what I don't know for stuff like vision, right? Like, for text, I can evaluate pretty easily. For vision let's say I'm like trying to, one of your examples was grab.[00:24:33] swyx: Which, very close to home, I'm from Singapore. I think your example was like, they identified stop signs better. Why is that hard? Why do I have to fine tune that? If I fine tune that, do I lose other things? You know, like, there's a lot of unknowns with Vision that I think developers have to figure out.[00:24:50] swyx: For[00:24:50] Olivier Godement: sure. Vision is going to open up, like, a new, I would say, evaluation space. Because you're right, like, it's harder, like, you know, to tell correct from incorrect, essentially, with images. What I can say is we've been alpha testing, like, the Vision fine tuning, like, for several weeks at that point. We are seeing, like, even higher performance uplift compared to text fine tuning.[00:25:10] Olivier Godement: So that's, there is something here, like, we've been pretty impressed, like, in a good way, frankly. But, you know, how well it works. But for sure, like, you know, I expect the developers who are moving from one modality to, like, text and images will have, like, more, you know Testing, evaluation, like, you know, to set in place, like, to make sure it works well.[00:25:25] Alessio: The model distillation and evals is definitely, like, the most interesting. Moving away from just being a model provider to being a platform provider. How should people think about being the source of truth? Like, do you want OpenAI to be, like, the system of record of all the prompting? Because people sometimes store it in, like, different data sources.[00:25:41] Alessio: And then, is that going to be the same as the models evolve? So you don't have to worry about, you know, refactoring the data, like, things like that, or like future model structures.[00:25:51] Olivier Godement: The vision is if you want to be a source of truth, you have to earn it, right? Like, we're not going to force people, like, to pass us data.[00:25:57] Olivier Godement: There is no value prop, like, you know, for us to store the data. The vision here is at the moment, like, most developers, like, use like a one size fits all model, like be off the shelf, like GP40 essentially. The vision we have is fast forward a couple of years. I think, like, most developers will essentially, like, have a.[00:26:15] Olivier Godement: An automated, continuous, fine tuned model. The more, like, you use the model, the more data you pass to the model provider, like, the model is automatically, like, fine tuned, evaluated against some eval sets, and essentially, like, you don't have to every month, when there is a new snapshot, like, you know, to go online and, you know, try a few new things.[00:26:34] Olivier Godement: That's a direction. We are pretty far away from it. But I think, like, that evaluation and decision product are essentially a first good step in that direction. It's like, hey, it's you. I set it by that direction, and you give us the evaluation data. We can actually log your completion data and start to do some automation on your behalf.[00:26:52] Alessio: And then you can do evals for free if you share data with OpenAI. How should people think about when it's worth it, when it's not? Sometimes people get overly protective of their data when it's actually not that useful. But how should developers think about when it's right to do it, when not, or[00:27:07] Olivier Godement: if you have any thoughts on it?[00:27:08] Olivier Godement: The default policy is still the same, like, you know, we don't train on, like, any API data unless you opt in. What we've seen from feedback is evaluation can be expensive. Like, if you run, like, O1 evals on, like, thousands of samples Like, your build will get increased, like, you know, pretty pretty significantly.[00:27:22] Olivier Godement: That's problem statement number one. Problem statement number two is, essentially, I want to get to a world where whenever OpenAI ships a new model snapshot, we have full confidence that there is no regression for the task that developers care about. And for that to be the case, essentially, we need to get evals.[00:27:39] Olivier Godement: And so that, essentially, is a sort of a two bugs one stone. It's like, we subsidize, basically, the evals. And we also use the evals when we ship new models to make sure that we keep going in the right direction. So, in my sense, it's a win win, but again, completely opt in. I expect that many developers will not want to share their data, and that's perfectly fine to me.[00:27:56] swyx: Yeah, I think free evals though, very, very good incentive. I mean, it's a fair trade. You get data, we get free evals. Exactly,[00:28:04] Olivier Godement: and we sanitize PII, everything. We have no interest in the actual sensitive data. We just want to have good evaluation on the real use cases.[00:28:13] swyx: Like, I always want to eval the eval. I don't know if that ever came up.[00:28:17] swyx: Like, sometimes the evals themselves are wrong, and there's no way for me to tell you.[00:28:22] Olivier Godement: Everyone who is starting with LLM, teaching with LLM, is like, Yeah, evaluation, easy, you know, I've done testing, like, all my life. And then you start to actually be able to eval, understand, like, all the corner cases, And you realize, wow, there's like a whole field in itself.[00:28:35] Olivier Godement: So, yeah, good evaluation is hard and so, yeah. Yeah, yeah.[00:28:38] swyx: But I think there's a, you know, I just talked to Brain Trust which I think is one of your partners. Mm-Hmm. . They also emphasize code based evals versus your sort of low code. What I see is like, I don't know, maybe there's some more that you didn't demo.[00:28:53] swyx: YC is kind of like a low code experience, right, for evals. Would you ever support like a more code based, like, would I run code on OpenAI's eval platform?[00:29:02] Olivier Godement: For sure. I mean, we meet developers where they are, you know. At the moment, the demand was more for like, you know, easy to get started, like eval. But, you know, if we need to expose like an evaluation API, for instance, for people like, you know, to pass, like, you know, their existing test data we'll do it.[00:29:15] Olivier Godement: So yeah, there is no, you know, philosophical, I would say, like, you know, misalignment on that. Yeah,[00:29:19] swyx: yeah, yeah. What I think this is becoming, by the way, and I don't, like it's basically, like, you're becoming AWS. Like, the AI cloud. And I don't know if, like, that's a conscious strategy, or it's, like, It doesn't even have to be a conscious strategy.[00:29:33] swyx: Like, you're going to offer storage. You're going to offer compute. You're going to offer networking. I don't know what networking looks like. Networking is maybe, like, Caching or like it's a CDN. It's a prompt CDN.[00:29:45] Alex Volkov: Yeah,[00:29:45] swyx: but it's the AI versions of everything, right? Do you like do you see the analogies or?[00:29:52] Olivier Godement: Whatever Whatever I took to developers. I feel like Good models are just half of the story to build a good app There's a third model you need to do Evaluation is the perfect example. Like, you know, you can have the best model in the world If you're in the dark, like, you know, it's really hard to gain the confidence and so Our philosophy is[00:30:11] Olivier Godement: The whole like software development stack is being basically reinvented, you know, with LLMs. There is no freaking way that open AI can build everything. Like there is just too much to build, frankly. And so my philosophy is, essentially, we'll focus on like the tools which are like the closest to the model itself.[00:30:28] Olivier Godement: So that's why you see us like, you know, investing quite a bit in like fine tuning, distillation, our evaluation, because we think that it actually makes sense to have like in one spot, Like, you know, all of that. Like, there is some sort of virtual circle, essentially, that you can set in place. But stuff like, you know, LLMOps, like tools which are, like, further away from the model, I don't know if you want to do, like, you know, super elaborate, like, prompt management, or, you know, like, tooling, like, I'm not sure, like, you know, OpenAI has, like, such a big edge, frankly, like, you know, to build this sort of tools.[00:30:56] Olivier Godement: So that's how we view it at the moment. But again, frankly, the philosophy is super simple. The strategy is super simple. It's meeting developers where they want us to be. And so, you know that's frankly, like, you know, day in, day out, like, you know, what I try to do.[00:31:08] Alessio: Cool. Thank you so much for the time.[00:31:10] Alessio: I'm sure you,[00:31:10] swyx: Yeah, I have more questions on, a couple questions on voice, and then also, like, your call to action, like, what you want feedback on, right? So, I think we should spend a bit more time on voice, because I feel like that's, like, the big splash thing. I talked well Well, I mean, I mean, just what is the future of real time for OpenAI?[00:31:28] swyx: Yeah. Because I think obviously video is next. You already have it in the, the ChatGPT desktop app. Do we just have a permanent, like, you know, like, are developers just going to be, like, sending sockets back and forth with OpenAI? Like how do we program for that? Like, what what is the future?[00:31:44] Olivier Godement: Yeah, that makes sense. I think with multimodality, like, real time is quickly becoming, like, you know, essentially the right experience, like, to build an application. Yeah. So my expectation is that we'll see like a non trivial, like a volume of applications like moving to a real time API. Like if you zoom out, like, audio is really simple, like, audio until basically now.[00:32:05] Olivier Godement: Audio on the web, in apps, was basically very much like a second class citizen. Like, you basically did like an audio chatbot for users who did not have a choice. You know, they were like struggling to read, or I don't know, they were like not super educated with technology. And so, frankly, it was like the crappy option, you know, compared to text.[00:32:25] Olivier Godement: But when you talk to people in the real world, the vast majority of people, like, prefer to talk and listen instead of typing and writing.[00:32:34] swyx: We speak before we write.[00:32:35] Olivier Godement: Exactly. I don't know. I mean, I'm sure it's the case for you in Singapore. For me, my friends in Europe, the number of, like, WhatsApp, like, voice notes they receive every day, I mean, just people, it makes sense, frankly, like, you know.[00:32:45] Olivier Godement: Chinese. Chinese, yeah.[00:32:46] swyx: Yeah,[00:32:47] Olivier Godement: all voice. You know, it's easier. There is more emotions. I mean, you know, you get the point across, like, pretty well. And so my personal ambition for, like, the real time API and, like, audio in general is to make, like, audio and, like, multimodality, like, truly a first class experience.[00:33:01] Olivier Godement: Like, you know, if you're, like, you know, the amazing, like, super bold, like, start up out of YC, you want to build, like, the next, like, billion, like, you know, user application to make it, like, truly your first and make it feel, like, you know, an actual good, like, you know, product experience. So that's essentially the ambition, and I think, like, yeah, it could be pretty big.[00:33:17] swyx: Yeah. I think one, one people, one issue that people have with the voice so far as, as released in advanced voice mode is the refusals.[00:33:24] Alex Volkov: Yeah.[00:33:24] swyx: You guys had a very inspiring model spec. I think Joanne worked on that. Where you said, like, yeah, we don't want to overly refuse all the time. In fact, like, even if, like, not safe for work, like, in some occasions, it's okay.[00:33:38] swyx: How, is there an API that we can say, not safe for work, okay?[00:33:41] Olivier Godement: I think we'll get there. I think we'll get there. The mobile spec, like, nailed it, like, you know. It nailed it! It's so good! Yeah, we are not in the business of, like, policing, you know, if you can say, like, vulgar words or whatever. You know, there are some use cases, like, you know, I'm writing, like, a Hollywood, like, script I want to say, like, will go on, and it's perfectly fine, you know?[00:33:59] Olivier Godement: And so I think the direction where we'll go here is that basically There will always be like, you know, a set of behavior that we will, you know, just like forbid, frankly, because they're illegal against our terms of services. But then there will be like, you know, some more like risky, like themes, which are completely legal, like, you know, vulgar words or, you know, not safe for work stuff.[00:34:17] Olivier Godement: Where basically we'll expose like a controllable, like safety, like knobs in the API to basically allow you to say, hey, that theme okay, that theme not okay. How sensitive do you want the threshold to be on safety refusals? I think that's the Dijkstra. So a[00:34:31] swyx: safety API.[00:34:32] Olivier Godement: Yeah, in a way, yeah.[00:34:33] swyx: Yeah, we've never had that.[00:34:34] Olivier Godement: Yeah. '[00:34:35] swyx: cause right now is you, it is whatever you decide. And then it's, that's it. That, that, that would be the main reason I don't use opening a voice is because of[00:34:42] Olivier Godement: it's over police. Over refuse over refusals. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. No, we gotta fix that. Yeah. Like singing,[00:34:47] Alessio: we're trying to do voice. I'm a singer.[00:34:49] swyx: And you, you locked off singing.[00:34:51] swyx: Yeah,[00:34:51] Alessio: yeah, yeah.[00:34:52] swyx: But I, I understand music gets you in trouble. Okay. Yeah. So then, and then just generally, like, what do you want to hear from developers? Right? We have, we have all developers watching you know, what feedback do you want? Any, anything specific as well, like from, especially from today anything that you are unsure about, that you are like, Our feedback could really help you decide.[00:35:09] swyx: For sure.[00:35:10] Olivier Godement: I think, essentially, it's becoming pretty clear after today that, you know, I would say the open end direction has become pretty clear, like, you know, after today. Investment in reasoning, investment in multimodality, Investment as well, like in, I would say, tool use, like function calling. To me, the biggest question I have is, you know, Where should we put the cursor next?[00:35:30] Olivier Godement: I think we need all three of them, frankly, like, you know, so we'll keep pushing.[00:35:33] swyx: Hire 10, 000 people, or actually, no need, build a bunch of bots.[00:35:37] Olivier Godement: Exactly, and so let's take O1 smart enough, like, for your problems? Like, you know, let's set aside for a second the existing models, like, for the apps that you would love to build, is O1 basically it in reasoning, or do we still have, like, you know, a step to do?[00:35:50] Olivier Godement: Preview is not enough, I[00:35:52] swyx: need the full one.[00:35:53] Olivier Godement: Yeah, so that's exactly that sort of feedback. Essentially what they would love to do is for developers I mean, there's a thing that Sam has been saying like over and over again, like, you know, it's easier said than done, but I think it's directionally correct. As a developer, as a founder, you basically want to build an app which is a bit too difficult for the model today, right?[00:36:12] Olivier Godement: Like, what you think is right, it's like, sort of working, sometimes not working. And that way, you know, that basically gives us like a goalpost, and be like, okay, that's what you need to enable with the next model release, like in a few months. And so I would say that Usually, like, that's the sort of feedback which is like the most useful that I can, like, directly, like, you know, incorporate.[00:36:33] swyx: Awesome. I think that's our time. Thank you so much, guys. Yeah, thank you so much.[00:36:38] AI Charlie: Thank you. We were particularly impressed that Olivier addressed the not safe for work moderation policy question head on, as that had only previously been picked up on in Reddit forums. This is an encouraging sign that we will return to in the closing candor with Sam Altman at the end of this episode.[00:36:57] Romain Huet, Head of DX, OpenAI[00:36:57] AI Charlie: Next, a chat with Roman Hewitt, friend of the pod, AI Engineer World's fair closing keynote speaker, and head of developer experience at OpenAI on his incredible live demos And advice to AI engineers on all the new modalities.[00:37:12] Alessio: Alright, we're live from OpenAI Dev Day. We're with Juan, who just did two great demos on, on stage.[00:37:17] Alessio: And he's been a friend of Latentspace, so thanks for taking some of the time.[00:37:20] Romain Huet: Of course, yeah, thank you for being here and spending the time with us today.[00:37:23] swyx: Yeah, I appreciate appreciate you guys putting this on. I, I know it's like extra work, but it really shows the developers that you're, Care and about reaching out.[00:37:31] Romain Huet: Yeah, of course, I think when you go back to the OpenAI mission, I think for us it's super important that we have the developers involved in everything we do. Making sure that you know, they have all of the tools they need to build successful apps. And we really believe that the developers are always going to invent the ideas, the prototypes, the fun factors of AI that we can't build ourselves.[00:37:49] Romain Huet: So it's really cool to have everyone here.[00:37:51] swyx: We had Michelle from you guys on. Yes, great episode. She very seriously said API is the path to AGI. Correct. And people in our YouTube comments were like, API is not AGI. I'm like, no, she's very serious. API is the path to AGI. Like, you're not going to build everything like the developers are, right?[00:38:08] swyx: Of[00:38:08] Romain Huet: course, yeah, that's the whole value of having a platform and an ecosystem of amazing builders who can, like, in turn, create all of these apps. I'm sure we talked about this before, but there's now more than 3 million developers building on OpenAI, so it's pretty exciting to see all of that energy into creating new things.[00:38:26] Alessio: I was going to say, you built two apps on stage today, an international space station tracker and then a drone. The hardest thing must have been opening Xcode and setting that up. Now, like, the models are so good that they can do everything else. Yes. You had two modes of interaction. You had kind of like a GPT app to get the plan with one, and then you had a cursor to do apply some of the changes.[00:38:47] Alessio: Correct. How should people think about the best way to consume the coding models, especially both for You know, brand new projects and then existing projects that you're trying to modify.[00:38:56] Romain Huet: Yeah. I mean, one of the things that's really cool about O1 Preview and O1 Mini being available in the API is that you can use it in your favorite tools like cursor like I did, right?[00:39:06] Romain Huet: And that's also what like Devin from Cognition can use in their own software engineering agents. In the case of Xcode, like, it's not quite deeply integrated in Xcode, so that's why I had like chat GPT side by side. But it's cool, right, because I could instruct O1 Preview to be, like, my coding partner and brainstorming partner for this app, but also consolidate all of the, the files and architect the app the way I wanted.[00:39:28] Romain Huet: So, all I had to do was just, like, port the code over to Xcode and zero shot the app build. I don't think I conveyed, by the way, how big a deal that is, but, like, you can now create an iPhone app from scratch, describing a lot of intricate details that you want, and your vision comes to life in, like, a minute.[00:39:47] Romain Huet: It's pretty outstanding.[00:39:48] swyx: I have to admit, I was a bit skeptical because if I open up SQL, I don't know anything about iOS programming. You know which file to paste it in. You probably set it up a little bit. So I'm like, I have to go home and test it. And I need the ChatGPT desktop app so that it can tell me where to click.[00:40:04] Romain Huet: Yeah, I mean like, Xcode and iOS development has become easier over the years since they introduced Swift and SwiftUI. I think back in the days of Objective C, or like, you know, the storyboard, it was a bit harder to get in for someone new. But now with Swift and SwiftUI, their dev tools are really exceptional.[00:40:23] Romain Huet: But now when you combine that with O1, as your brainstorming and coding partner, it's like your architect, effectively. That's the best way, I think, to describe O1. People ask me, like, can GPT 4 do some of that? And it certainly can. But I think it will just start spitting out code, right? And I think what's great about O1, is that it can, like, make up a plan.[00:40:42] Romain Huet: In this case, for instance, the iOS app had to fetch data from an API, it had to look at the docs, it had to look at, like, how do I parse this JSON, where do I store this thing, and kind of wire things up together. So that's where it really shines. Is mini or preview the better model that people should be using?[00:40:58] Romain Huet: Like, how? I think people should try both. We're obviously very excited about the upcoming O1 that we shared the evals for. But we noticed that O1 Mini is very, very good at everything math, coding, everything STEM. If you need for your kind of brainstorming or your kind of science part, you need some broader knowledge than reaching for O1 previews better.[00:41:20] Romain Huet: But yeah, I used O1 Mini for my second demo. And it worked perfectly. All I needed was very much like something rooted in code, architecting and wiring up like a front end, a backend, some UDP packets, some web sockets, something very specific. And it did that perfectly.[00:41:35] swyx: And then maybe just talking about voice and Wanderlust, the app that keeps on giving, what's the backstory behind like preparing for all of that?[00:41:44] Romain Huet: You know, it's funny because when last year for Dev Day, we were trying to think about what could be a great demo app to show like an assistive experience. I've always thought travel is a kind of a great use case because you have, like, pictures, you have locations, you have the need for translations, potentially.[00:42:01] Romain Huet: There's like so many use cases that are bounded to travel that I thought last year, let's use a travel app. And that's how Wanderlust came to be. But of course, a year ago, all we had was a text based assistant. And now we thought, well, if there's a voice modality, what if we just bring this app back as a wink.[00:42:19] Romain Huet: And what if we were interacting better with voice? And so with this new demo, what I showed was the ability to like, So, we wanted to have a complete conversation in real time with the app, but also the thing we wanted to highlight was the ability to call tools and functions, right? So, like in this case, we placed a phone call using the Twilio API, interfacing with our AI agents, but developers are so smart that they'll come up with so many great ideas that we could not think of ourselves, right?[00:42:48] Romain Huet: But what if you could have like a, you know, a 911 dispatcher? What if you could have like a customer service? Like center, that is much smarter than what we've been used to today. There's gonna be so many use cases for real time, it's awesome.[00:43:00] swyx: Yeah, and sometimes actually you, you, like this should kill phone trees.[00:43:04] swyx: Like there should not be like dial one[00:43:07] Romain Huet: of course para[00:43:08] swyx: espanol, you know? Yeah, exactly. Or whatever. I dunno.[00:43:12] Romain Huet: I mean, even you starting speaking Spanish would just do the thing, you know you don't even have to ask. So yeah, I'm excited for this future where we don't have to interact with those legacy systems.[00:43:22] swyx: Yeah. Yeah. Is there anything, so you are doing function calling in a streaming environment. So basically it's, it's web sockets. It's UDP, I think. It's basically not guaranteed to be exactly once delivery. Like, is there any coding challenges that you encountered when building this?[00:43:39] Romain Huet: Yeah, it's a bit more delicate to get into it.[00:43:41] Romain Huet: We also think that for now, what we, what we shipped is a, is a beta of this API. I think there's much more to build onto it. It does have the function calling and the tools. But we think that for instance, if you want to have something very robust, On your client side, maybe you want to have web RTC as a client, right?[00:43:58] Romain Huet: And, and as opposed to like directly working with the sockets at scale. So that's why we have partners like Life Kit and Agora if you want to, if you want to use them. And I'm sure we'll have many mores in the, in many more in the future. But yeah, we keep on iterating on that, and I'm sure the feedback of developers in the weeks to come is going to be super critical for us to get it right.[00:44:16] swyx: Yeah, I think LiveKit has been fairly public that they are used in, in the Chachapiti app. Like, is it, it's just all open source, and we just use it directly with OpenAI, or do we use LiveKit Cloud or something?[00:44:28] Romain Huet: So right now we, we released the API, we released some sample code also, and referenced clients for people to get started with our API.[00:44:35] Romain Huet: And we also partnered with LifeKit and Agora, so they also have their own, like ways to help you get started that plugs natively with the real time API. So depending on the use case, people can, can can decide what to use. If you're working on something that's completely client or if you're working on something on the server side, for the voice interaction, you may have different needs, so we want to support all of those.[00:44:55] Alessio: I know you gotta run. Is there anything that you want the AI engineering community to give feedback on specifically, like even down to like, you know, a specific API end point or like, what, what's like the thing that you want? Yeah. I[00:45:08] Romain Huet: mean, you know, if we take a step back, I think dev Day this year is all different from last year and, and in, in a few different ways.[00:45:15] Romain Huet: But one way is that we wanted to keep it intimate, even more intimate than last year. We wanted to make sure that the community is. Thank you very much for joining us on the Spotlight. That's why we have community talks and everything. And the takeaway here is like learning from the very best developers and AI engineers.[00:45:31] Romain Huet: And so, you know we want to learn from them. Most of what we shipped this morning, including things like prompt caching the ability to generate prompts quickly in the playground, or even things like vision fine tuning. These are all things that developers have been asking of us. And so, the takeaway I would, I would leave them with is to say like, Hey, the roadmap that we're working on is heavily influenced by them and their work.[00:45:53] Romain Huet: And so we love feedback From high feature requests, as you say, down to, like, very intricate details of an API endpoint, we love feedback, so yes that's, that's how we, that's how we build this API.[00:46:05] swyx: Yeah, I think the, the model distillation thing as well, it might be, like, the, the most boring, but, like, actually used a lot.[00:46:12] Romain Huet: True, yeah. And I think maybe the most unexpected, right, because I think if I, if I read Twitter correctly the past few days, a lot of people were expecting us. To shape the real time API for speech to speech. I don't think developers were expecting us to have more tools for distillation, and we really think that's gonna be a big deal, right?[00:46:30] Romain Huet: If you're building apps that have you know, you, you want high, like like low latency, low cost, but high performance, high quality on the use case distillation is gonna be amazing.[00:46:40] swyx: Yeah. I sat in the distillation session just now and they showed how they distilled from four oh to four mini and it was like only like a 2% hit in the performance and 50 next.[00:46:49] swyx: Yeah,[00:46:50] Romain Huet: I was there as well for the superhuman kind of use case inspired for an Ebola client. Yeah, this was really good. Cool man! so much for having me. Thanks again for being here today. It's always[00:47:00] AI Charlie: great to have you. As you might have picked up at the end of that chat, there were many sessions throughout the day focused on specific new capabilities.[00:47:08] Michelle Pokrass, Head of API at OpenAI ft. Simon Willison[00:47:08] AI Charlie: Like the new model distillation features combining EVOLs and fine tuning. For our next session, we are delighted to bring back two former guests of the pod, which is something listeners have been greatly enjoying in our second year of doing the Latent Space podcast. Michelle Pokras of the API team joined us recently to talk about structured outputs, and today gave an updated long form session at Dev Day, describing the implementation details of the new structured output mode.[00:47:39] AI Charlie: We also got her updated thoughts on the VoiceMode API we discussed in her episode, now that it is finally announced. She is joined by friend of the pod and super blogger, Simon Willison, who also came back as guest co host in our Dev Day. 2023 episode.[00:47:56] Alessio: Great, we're back live at Dev Day returning guest Michelle and then returning guest co host Fork.[00:48:03] Alessio: Fork, yeah, I don't know. I've lost count. I think it's been a few. Simon Willison is back. Yeah, we just wrapped, we just wrapped everything up. Congrats on, on getting everything everything live. Simon did a great, like, blog, so if you haven't caught up, I[00:48:17] Simon Willison: wrote my, I implemented it. Now, I'm starting my live blog while waiting for the first talk to start, using like GPT 4, I wrote me the Javascript, and I got that live just in time and then, yeah, I was live blogging the whole day.[00:48:28] swyx: Are you a cursor enjoyer?[00:48:29] Simon Willison: I haven't really gotten into cursor yet to be honest. I just haven't spent enough time for it to click, I think. I'm more a copy and paste things out of Cloud and chat GPT. Yeah. It's interesting.[00:48:39] swyx: Yeah. I've converted to cursor and 01 is so easy to just toggle on and off.[00:48:45] Alessio: What's your workflow?[00:48:46] Alessio: VS[00:48:48] Michelle Pokrass: Code co pilot, so Yep, same here. Team co pilot. Co pilot is actually the reason I joined OpenAI. It was, you know, before ChatGPT, this is the thing that really got me. So I'm still into it, but I keep meaning to try out Cursor, and I think now that things have calmed down, I'm gonna give it a real go.[00:49:03] swyx: Yeah, it's a big thing to change your tool of choice.[00:49:06] swyx: Yes,[00:49:06] Michelle Pokrass: yeah, I'm pretty dialed, so.[00:49:09] swyx: I mean, you know, if you want, you can just fork VS Code and make your own. That's the thing to dumb thing, right? We joked about doing a hackathon where the only thing you do is fork VS Code and bet me the best fork win.[00:49:20] Michelle Pokrass: Nice.[00:49:22] swyx: That's actually a really good idea. Yeah, what's up?[00:49:26] swyx: I mean, congrats on launching everything today. I know, like, we touched on it a little bit, but, like, everyone was kind of guessing that Voice API was coming, and, like, we talked about it in our episode. How do you feel going into the launch? Like, any design decisions that you want to highlight?[00:49:41] Michelle Pokrass: Yeah, super jazzed about it. The team has been working on it for a while. It's, like, a very different API for us. It's the first WebSocket API, so a lot of different design decisions to be made. It's, like, what kind of events do you send? When do you send an event? What are the event names? What do you send, like, on connection versus on future messages?[00:49:57] Michelle Pokrass: So there have been a lot of interesting decisions there. The team has also hacked together really cool projects as we've been testing it. One that I really liked is we had an internal hack a thon for the API team. And some folks built like a little hack that you could use to, like VIM with voice mode, so like, control vim, and you would tell them on like, nice, write a file and it would, you know, know all the vim commands and, and pipe those in.[00:50:18] Michelle Pokrass: So yeah, a lot of cool stuff we've been hacking on and really excited to see what people build with it.[00:50:23] Simon Willison: I've gotta call out a demo from today. I think it was Katja had a 3D visualization of the solar system, like WebGL solar system, you could talk to. That is one of the coolest conference demos I've ever seen.[00:50:33] Simon Willison: That was so convincing. I really want the code. I really want the code for that to get put out there. I'll talk[00:50:39] Michelle Pokrass: to the team. I think we can[00:50:40] Simon Willison: probably

"I am truly a positive person. So what you see on my Instagram is just what you get. You know, that might not make you the most popular person. But it makes it much, much, much easier for me, because I'm just being myself. Mhm. Yeah, can you talk more about that? What made you think of that just now? I thought about it, because I think sometimes, you see so much doom and gloom… Every social media, everywhere. And then sometimes, when you look at that, or if it's not the doom and gloom, it's the… You know, the people talking about being stressed all the time, or body conscious all the time. You know, it's always negative! And I wonder, why? I mean, is that all people go through in life? Negativity? Yes, I have had moments that I'm pissed off, upset, have gone through things… But you cannot let that just rule and take over your life." — Welcome to the Wise Not Withered podcast! We are in Season 4, and this is Episode 10. This month's guest is Vickie Heath Glosson. I found her on Instagram, where she describes herself as "Gray hair beauty influencer and motivator with an eclectic lifestyle. Encouraging personal growth and a beacon of positivity and creativity." She truly is just so varied in all of her interests and activities that she does. She talks about her upbringing, as well as all kinds of things she's into now, such as her hair, her gardening, her teaching, her collaborations (being an ambassador for various beauty products), and she truly is just such a warm, beautiful soul. It was such a pleasure to talk to her and listen to her share so much about her life. And I will let her tell the rest of the story! Enjoy! — Cool! All right! Let's just dive right in! Let's go for it! What is your age? I am 66! 66, excellent. And where did you grow up? I grew up in the state of Texas, in a small city called Galena Park. It's right on the outskirts of Houston. So… Houston, Texas. Okay, nice. And where else have you lived? I am a born and raised Texan! Yeah! I'm right here. My parents both came from Louisiana, and they settled here in Houston in the mid-50's. Okay. Cool, do you know what brought them to where you are now? Of course! They grew up in the Northern part of Louisiana, and after my mom and dad got married, they settled in Seattle, Washington for a while. But since their parents were in Louisiana, they went back and stayed for a while. But they kinda wanted to live their life on their terms. And they decided on Houston. My parents were… My dad was a lawyer. My parents were business people. We had a café, growing up. They settled in Houston to do that. In Northern Louisiana, it was a small town… Opportunities were just not there. And so they decided to move on. Cool, and what do you do for a living? I know you have—you do so many things, but yeah what's like the main thing, if there is one? So many things… Actually, educator! I have taught for forty-five years. Wow! Actually I retired, then I got rehired because I missed it a little bit. I did that… I started teaching at a very young age of 21, and I taught in the Houston and Galena Park districts. So basically that's it. I'm an educator, of mostly middle school and high school. Okay, nice. Oh my gosh. Definitely an eclectic lifestyle, as you say on your page. How did you get into teaching? Well, my family has been deep into education. Actually, all my sisters above me… And I'ma just step back for a minute: there are eleven of us, okay. Mom and Dad had eleven children, and none of us are twins. My mom actually always wanted to be a teacher, and so I think over the years, hearing her talking about it on the regular… It just got instilled in us, because education was always really important. My grandmother, on my dad's side, was a teacher for years. So I really came from a long line of educators. So it just became a part… As a matter of fact, my oldest sister right now has been teaching for fifty-five years—in one district! Wow! Yes, yes. But all my sisters—and I have brothers. Brothers didn't go into the teaching. But all my sisters above me—which I am seven from the top! There are, what… Three sisters over me. Okay. Wow. So just a whole family of teachers. Yes, teachers, educators of some sort. Mhm. Okay. Yeah, and what has made you stay in it? Well, what happened is… I do do a lot of things. I spend a lot of time… I just love the kids! I retired for four years. And then my mom passed, okay… And after she did, my kids were in college. My younger two were in college still. I was like, “Let me sub for a little bit.” So I went in and substituted. I was teaching anyway. I could not be that person just sitting back and not helping my students. And so I went, “Well you know what? If I'm teaching anyway, I'll just go ahead and go back.” And that's what I did. I said, “If I get hired, I get hired. If not… You know, I won't worry about it. I'm retired. It's been four years. I'm good.” And my second interview, I got hired again! So I said, “Okay, I'll do this!” It's been almost six years now since I've been back. Nice! Awesome. All right, yeah… I love so many things that I saw on your profile. One of them was “Encouraging personal growth”. What does personal growth mean to you? Oh gosh… Just continue doing things, you know? Keep living life, having fun. Yes, there's always gonna be setbacks, that's normal. But you just have to persevere. You just have to say, “Okay, that happened. I made a mistake, perhaps.” I've learned, and move on! I believe in living, loving, and laughing! That's kind of my motto. It did not just happen. I was a little quieter in my earlier years, but I've always believed that. I believe in family. Doing things that make you happy! If it doesn't make me happy, I move on. Yeah, that's great! I love that. And what does make you happy? I'm sure there's tons of things, but what comes to mind first? Family! Family. I love family. I've always been family-oriented. I was close daughter to my mother and father. And my children! Oh my goodness. We do so, so much together. I love having them here with me, being around them, doing adventurous things with them. And you know, we'll just… Family. Family is just the bottom line. They just keep my heart beating. I'm excited about that. And of course, now I have two grand-daughters… That's just the icing on the cake. (Laughs) (Laughs) Ah, that's so cute. What was your relationship like with your mom? Oh my… We were really close. When I was growing up, like I said I was a little quieter. I was seventh, so I kind of sat back and watched. But she was very, very supportive. The song that I love, love, love—that I feel represents our relationship the most—you know, the wind beneath my wings! Yeah! Because she had always been there. Beautiful woman, beautiful heart, very supportive… She's the one, when I came home from dance classes, just if I learned a new step. She may be in the middle of something, and she's gonna stop. Whether she liked it or not, it's like “Oh my goodness, look at you! You done a great job.” You know, she always gave me time. Middle of the night sometimes, I wake up… She'll be in there sewing. Instead of swishing me back, to go to bed, “Come here, come on! Let me teach you this.” She taught me embroidery, taught me how to sew. And a lot of things were just her and me. I was interested, she knew I was. And if I wanted to learn from her, I did. You may have noticed, a lot of the pictures are gardening! Oh my gosh. She was an exceptional gardener. And I was right there with her, trying to learn as much as I could about everything. I wondered, “How do you know all this?” You know, remember all that? And I just kind of amazed myself, now, when I can go and do the same, and my kids are right there with me. They're like, “Mom, how do know all this?” Ah, I love that!! But she was… Yeah, just a wonderful person. You know, of course, we had our ups and downs, just like any other mother and daughter, but… An amazing woman. I'm that one to say, “When I grow up, I want to be like you.” A role model. Yeah… Oh, that's beautiful. I love that. Yeah, maybe can you talk more about your gardening? Oh gosh! Oh wow! Okay! I've always had a garden. Even in my single days, always had one… 2019 was a real transformation. My son and I—cause I have a son that stays here with me. We had grass in the backyard, the whole works, a courtyard. We decided, you know, let's do something! He's very creative. We kinda bonded here together, got our thoughts together. We cleared out every piece of grass, weeds, and we revamped it. It was really nice, took a while… Then covid hit. It was horrible, a terrible time in life, but we made so much out of it. We went through our whole, entire backyard. We dug it up. We transformed it! And it's my little paradise—my piece of paradise. We made a biometric type of gardening. A place where not only my family and myself, but for the animals. All the birds… We set it up, the garden for butterflies, the bees. We wanted nature to be part of the yard. That's how we set it up. I was taught earlier that when you do gardening, whether it's a flower garden or vegetable garden, whatever. You know, you do it enough to have enough for yourself, and enough for the animals. They come in and eat your tomatoes, or pick your peppers, whatever they do. There's always extra. So that's what we wanted. That's the way we wanted the garden to be, and that's how it turned out. We put gravel over the other areas. We have flower gardens, we have… Oh my gosh. I have peaches, apples, peppers, onions, garlic, greens. Just name it, it's there. And I love living a healthy life. I love going outside to pick my garden. It has been very healthful, very calming. I've loved just sitting back, and watching what I've done! I'm very proud of it. So I've been keeping it up, and it looks amazing! Oh, that's great! How fun. I remember my dad grew some, I think tomatoes. I feel like it tastes a lot better, from the natural garden. (Laughs) Oh, yes. And you know, they eat a little more than we want them to eat. (Laughs) But we don't use pesticides. We just try to get there earlier and pick it before they do. Yeah, that's so interesting too, to leave enough for the animals too, since it's inevitable that that'll happen. Yeah. I love that! How about, can you talk about your hair? Ahh! Yeah!! Yes, yes, yes. Okay. Yes, I will. It's a very interesting story. First of all, I actually did… Rinse my hair one. What happened… I had younger children, for my age. My first child was born when I was 32, my last one I was 39. So I was an older parent. And I remember my hair growing out gray. And my youngest son said, “Mom, why don't you dye your hair?” And remember now, he was around a lot of the younger parents, with blonde, bleach-blonde, or brown hair, whatever… I said, “Dye my hair? Why?” He said, “That way, it'd make you look younger. You oughta give it a try.” Remember now, he was in seventh grade, I believe it was. And so, I was like, “Well…” I just kinda didn't want to do that. He mentioned it again, and I said why not. I went in, got my hair rinsed, because I knew it would wash out after a certain amount of washes. It looked amazing! It did. I loved it, I loved it, I loved it. I'm kinda lazy though! (Laughs) I'm kinda lazy when it comes to even dealing with the hair. I loved it for the moment. You know, I'm happy that I did it. But when it grew out, I was okay. I did this, he thought it was amazing, everyone thought it was amazing. But it wasn't to the point where I could see myself in the chair, every what, six or eight weeks, getting my hair redone. Nobody said anything else about it from that point. So that was it! It went from a streak of gray right here, in the middle. That streak, years ago, my mom used to say… It was auburn color when I was growing up. She said “It'll be the first part of your hair that turns gray.” Yes, I had those lovely brothers that called me, you know, skunk! There was a cartoon Josie and the Pussycats. One of the ladies on there had that hair… But anyway, it continued on. I just went back, after a while. I said, “I love it!” I get compliments. An it's so amazing. Over the years, I've gotten more compliments from men versus women. That was shocking. I was like, “What?” That was pretty interesting. I've just kept it. I love it. It's just easy. And just went from there. Yeah, that's my hair! Love my hair. And if I had to do it over again, I'd probably do the same. Yeah, that's great. All right, so I've seen you've done a lot of collaborations. You've been featured, you've been an ambassador… There's so much! Can you talk about all of that? Wow… It started with hair. Different companies, that's where it started. I'm very happy about that. It was during a time where you just did not see women with gray hair, being featured for anything! So it started there, which… That was wonderful. It should have always been a part. When I think about the collaborations, I love the fact that the majority of them kept that in mind: it was because of the gray hair. That's why I was chosen in the first place, with a lot of them. With some of them, it's hard on your hair, because by your hair being this light, certain products turn it green or blue or… (Laughs) We had to learn what did and did not work! So that was kinda interesting, because if you're gonna collaborate with people and you try the products… I like to be transparent. I'm not gonna sit here and say a product is super great if it's NOT! Especially when I'm talking to women with light hair, white or silver hair. I always try my products. I let them know, “Hey, I have to do this for a week or two, so I can at least see some kind of reaction.” Then it moved on to facial products, and then it just became collaborations with a little bit of both. Even with that… If it's gonna break me out, you know, I'm gonna like, “Okay…!?” I show a picture of it, but I probably won't talk a whole lot about it. Because I don't want to deceive people when I get products, just to get paid. I would prefer not getting paid for it, if I could just jump in front of my audience and say, “Yeah! This product works!” This and that. No, I don't work like that. As a matter of fact, there's one I'm working on now, and I've only had it for like a week. “Oh, when you gonna come out?” I said, “I haven't used it long enough!” (Laughs) I said, “I'll do it so-and-so time.” But yes, I like doing the collaborations. I do a few that are free, but the majority of them I do get paid for them. Yes. Awesome. Yeah. I just put one out now, it's with Moderna. I've done one previously with the others, so… It's pretty good. I'm trying to get to a point where you know, when I retire next time around, I don't have to go back to teaching. So after a while, you're kinda like, “Oh it's that time again.” Yeah, what was it like to have the first one? Was it surprising to get an email? Or… What was your reaction to that? It was like, “Oh goodness!” I think the very first ambassador was Fly Hip and Ageless. Wow! That was so cool! And I'm like, “Okay!!” You know… But that was so amazing. I was very excited about that. You've probably heard of them, Fly Hip and Ageless. So that was my first ambassador one. Probably… I'm trying to think back. There's been a lot of them. It's exciting! And it's still exciting, after years! And you're excited because the people see you, notice you, and figure, she is… We like what she does well enough to even want to communicate with her. I do pick and choose! There are a lot of scammers out there, yes. They'll put in, “You're from this, we're from that.” And you have to really be careful with that. Check emails, check links, you check all those things before you jump into it. That's the harder part, and I'm glad I have young children! (Laughs) Cause they say, “Mom, that's a fake account! Check that again.” Or they check it for me. And sometimes if it sounds too good to be true, it IS too good to be true. But that said, there have been a lot of really good ones, that you would think, “Yeah, sure.” And they're really good ones, and legit! So, just have to be real careful. I'm very, very picky about that. Because… Yeah, you don't want your information out there to be stolen. Even though a lot of it gets stolen anyway! (Laughs) You do your best to not let it get stolen. Yeah, interesting… I also see that you're into yoga too? You know, I'm into a healthy lifestyle. Let's put it that way. Yoga… I was a ballet dancer… Oh my goodness, pretty much the last dance I did I was like 30 years old. So, I just do what makes me feel good. I love stretching! Being limber. I do yoga moves, I do ballet moves. I do some strength training, jogging… So I kinda just, at this age, I mix what's best for me. Stretching is the most important part. I can do that, I've learned all of that, and I just put it together, and work with it in ways that makes it great for me. You know? I would show it, yes, I do the yoga poses. Did I learn how to do the splits from yoga? No, I learned that from dance! You know what I'm saying? Or my backbend was from my acrobat… I used to be into acrobatics when I was younger. And I just kept up with them over the years. And yes, at 66, I can still do a backbend. Yes, I can still do the splits! Cartwheel, you know, those kinds of things. I just kept up with it over the years, because it just made me feel good. At the time it wasn't because of my Instagram. It was because I wanted to do it, and prove things to myself. Hey, can I still do this? And yes. I keep it up. I can't just specify one thing that I do. It's a blend. It's a blend of all that I've learned over the years. Read the full transcript on wisenotwithered.com!

INTRODUCTION: Award-winning health expert Nicole Kerr is the co-author of Eating the Rainbow: Lifelong Nutritional Wellness—Without Lies, Hype, or Calculus. She has appeared on CNN, PBS, CBS, ABC, the Food Channel, and a host of other TV and radio shows to share her unique perspective on wellness, lifestyle, and nutrition.   For the past 30 years, Nicole has worked in all sectors of society, including ingovernment (the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention), non-profit(American Cancer Society), military (United States Air Force Medical Operations),academia (University of Hawaii), healthcare institutions/hospitals (AdventistHealth Castle and Queens Medical Center), corporate settings (Sea Ties, LLC),and private consultation. Nicole's warm, engaging presentations have earned hera place in front of international audiences ranging from corporate foodproducers to health and medical associations. Throughout her career, she hasfocused on supporting people from every walk of life to make realistic,meaningful, happy choices for lifelong health and well-being.When she was a 19-year-old cadet at the United States Air Force Academy, Nicolewould be forced to learn how to live and love differently following aterrifying and transformative Near-Death Experience. Her memory of the crashcame back 20 years later, and it has taken Nicole almost another two decades toalign her soul, spirit, mind, and body, proving healing is certainly anon-linear process.A disabled veteran, Nicole now maintains a private practice primarily using NeuroEmotional Technique (NET) targeting the often overlooked domains of emotional,energy, and spiritual well-being.   INCLUDED IN THIS EPISODE (But not limited to): ·      Spirits & Angels·      Second Chances·      Near Death Experiences (NDE's)·      Louisiana State University Nostalgia·      Religious Trauma·      Military Trauma·      Living With Fear·      PTSD·      Struggle Acquiring Veteran's Affairs Disability & Compensation·      Why Perspective Is Everything CONNECT WITH NICOLE: Website & Book: https://www.nicolekerr.comFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/nicole.a.kerrInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/nicole.angelique.kerr/LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nicole-kerr-8920438/ CONNECT WITH DE'VANNON: Website: https://www.SexDrugsAndJesus.comWebsite: https://www.DownUnderApparel.comTikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@sexdrugsandjesusYouTube: https://bit.ly/3daTqCMFacebook:    https://www.facebook.com/SexDrugsAndJesus/Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sexdrugsandjesuspodcast/Twitter: https://twitter.com/TabooTopixLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/devannonPinterest: https://www.pinterest.es/SexDrugsAndJesus/_saved/Email: DeVannon@SDJPodcast.com  DE'VANNON'S RECOMMENDATIONS:·      Survivors of Narcissistic Abuse & Codependency Support Groups (Virtual) - https://www.meetup.com/pittsburgh-narcissism-survivor-meetup-group/·      COSA – 12 Step Recovery For Victims Of Compulsive Sexual Behavior - https://cosa-recovery.org·      A Recommended Reading To Help Heal From Narcissism - https://amzn.to/41sg6FO·      Sex Addicts Anonymous: HTTPS://WWW.SAA.ORG ·      Pray Away Documentary (NETFLIX)o  https://www.netflix.com/title/81040370o  TRAILER: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tk_CqGVfxEs ·      OverviewBible (Jeffrey Kranz)o  https://overviewbible.como  https://www.youtube.com/c/OverviewBible ·      Hillsong: A Megachurch Exposed (Documentary)o  https://press.discoveryplus.com/lifestyle/discovery-announces-key-participants-featured-in-upcoming-expose-of-the-hillsong-church-controversy-hillsong-a-megachurch-exposed/ ·      Leaving Hillsong Podcast With Tanya Levino  https://leavinghillsong.podbean.com  ·      Upwork: https://www.upwork.com·      FreeUp: https://freeup.net VETERAN'S SERVICE ORGANIZATIONS ·      Disabled American Veterans (DAV): https://www.dav.org·      American Legion: https://www.legion.org ·      What The World Needs Now (Dionne Warwick): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfHAs9cdTqg  INTERESTED IN PODCASTING OR BEING A GUEST?: ·      PodMatch is awesome! This application streamlines the process of finding guests for your show and also helps you find shows to be a guest on. The PodMatch Community is a part of this and that is where you can ask questions and get help from an entire network of people so that you save both money and time on your podcasting journey.https://podmatch.com/signup/devannon  TRANSCRIPT: [00:00:00]De'Vannon: You're listening to the sex drugs and Jesus podcast, where we discuss whatever the fuck we want to! And yes, we can put sex and drugs and Jesus all in the same bed and still be all right at the end of the day. My name is De'Vannon and I'll be interviewing guests from every corner of this world as we dig into topics that are too risqué for the morning show, as we strive to help you understand what's really going on in your life.There is nothing off the table and we've got a lot to talk about. So let's dive right into this episode.Have you had a near death experience? Have you felt that feeling where your life was either slipping away from you or you did actually slip away from this plane of existence and stepped into that white light? Saw your ancestors, spoke with angels. Well, if you have, you're not alone. My guest today, Nicole Kerr, has written a book called You Are Deathless, and in this book she details her experience being 19 years old, the cadet at the Air Force Academy in [00:01:00] Colorado, flying through the window of a convertible. Well, let's just say, I'll leaveall the gory details of what happened after that for you to listen to in this episode. She died, she came back to life, and now she's dedicated her life to helping other people live free of fear in this episode. We'll talk about everything from Angels to Louisiana State University to P T S D, to Veterans Affairs, drama, religious Trauma. You name it, we got it . So listen in, pay close attention and know that I love you.Hello everyone and welcome back to the Sex Drugs in Jesus podcast. I'm your host Devon, and it is so lovely to see you as always. My guest today, her name is Nicole krs. She's an author and she has a bunch of acronyms. She's gonna explain to us what they mean in a minute, but their mph, h and r d n and b t d t [00:02:00] and n d e and all of these beautiful things.And she's an award-winning health expert. She's also a disabled Air force veteran like I am. Thank you for your service girl, and thank you. She has appeared on C N N P B S C B S A B C P Y T, all the different networks, the food channel, and a host of other TV and radio shows. And we're gonna talk about second and third chances today in health and wellness.How are you, Nicole? Nicole: I'm doing great. I am just delighted, excited, and grateful to be on your podcast today. So thank you very much, De'Vannon: Amsterdam Lutely, thank you for setting aside an hour of your life. Time is one of the resources that we cannot create more of as you well know. And so I don't take for granted what you choose to do with a whole hour.This, this is very, very special to me, so I appreciate the fuck out Nicole: of it. Aw, thank you. Likewise. De'Vannon: [00:03:00] Okay, so are y'all, Nicole like we, like we were just saying, was in the Air Force. There was a bad car accident. She died, she came back and this is kind of what set her story into motion. And so we'll be talking a lot about that.Many of us have had near death experiences, as have I. And so we'll chat, chat, chat, chat, chat. But before we get into that, let's talk a little bit about your education. You, you were saying that you went to L S U. I'm here in Baton Rouge. I go over to Lssu all the time. I, you see it, I party up there, tailgate up there and everything.So tell me about LSU for you. Nicole: I. L s u That was a stop for me where I got my dietetics certification and my brother also graduated from there. And we lived in Jackson, Mississippi for a long time and then moved down to Baton Rouge with my dad and brother's company called Yasu, the big Will mowing machines.So [00:04:00] that was the family business. And so I lived down there for several years while I was getting my Like I said, my nutrition and diet dietetics degree because I had developed an eating do eating disorder binge eating. It was called compulsive eating back in 1980 something when I first got it.But I did not get any mental health after my traumatic experience. My parents told the doctor when they said, Nicole needs to see a psychologist that Jesus and God was my psychologist. And needless to say, shortly after that I developed an eating disorder because I didn't know what to do with the pain and I didn't even know it was pain.So that lasted almost 40 years until I got married at 40. And then I've, I've worked hard. I've been in therapy. You name it, I've done it. And It just, you know, Jesus never came down and sat across from me and tried to help me, you [00:05:00] know, either talk therapy or any of these other modalities. And that's just not true.And it was really a disservice to me to not get the mental health. I had to pursue that on my own. And it was, it was challenging. De'Vannon: They used to say and damn, I'm so sorry that that happened to you. They're. You know, you already have like this near death trauma, now you've got religious trauma being pumped upon you too.They used to tell us in church to not be so heavenly minded that you're not so earthly good.It look. Nicole: Yeah, yeah, yeah. But that's what you get, get when now my parents, I call 'em religious addicts, but I did my formative years in Jackson, Mississippi and then I'm a people recovering people pleaser and I was pleasing. My dad, he was in the military. He was one of the first classes to go through the Air Force Academy and at that time [00:06:00] they had opened it, just opened it up to women to come to go into the service academy.So I was the sixth class of women. He was so proud of me that I got in. I was shocked that I did cuz I absolutely had no interest in the military. All of my background in high school and junior high was. Modeling junior achievement team boards nothing related to flying planes or going into this space program.So clearly I did it just for him. And let me tell you, that was the wrong reason. Cuz as soon as they dropped me off and closed the door and I went through that, bring me men wrap. My life changed and all of a sudden fear was the emotion and terror that dominated me. And my emotional state for at least the next year and a half until my crash happened.Because I was in constant fear that I was gonna fail, that I wasn't keeping [00:07:00] up. I was keeping my squadron, I was holding them back because I would fall outta runs. They sent me to remedial training. You know, I just didn't have that killer instinct. And I understand the reason we have a military, you know, to protect and defend, but every soul that goes into the military, in my opinion, is going to be fractured at some level.Because when you experience the theater or war and people being killed, or you know, You suffering parts of your soul fracture in order to preserve yourself. And so that's why we have so many injuries mentally, I think, and so many suicides with veterans especially, is because of that soul piece that just can't reconcile what they have seen and what they have done.So I knew in basic training that this was not for me, but I didn't know how to [00:08:00] quit. I didn't know how to say no to my father. Feel like a failure. The shame, the judgment, the condemnation. Cuz it takes a hell of a lot of work to get into academy. You gotta get a congressional rep nomination. You gotta pass all these tests.You, you know. And and I did it. And then I got there and I, I, three weeks into bootcamp, they gave us one phone call, three minutes. And I heard my mother pick up and she said, hello, and I hyperventilated and cried for three minutes. Then the commander comes in there and says, that's the end of your phone call.Go sit over there and get yourself together ke. And I was just like, I needed my parents to tell me I had permission to quit if I was, if this was not the place for me, I needed. To get out and I couldn't do it. And my mother turned to my father later and told me, what have we done to her? And he's like, ah, she'll be fine.And I [00:09:00] wasn't fine. I went from there to remedial, which is one-on-one, which is even worse, you know, because you're separated from your, your squadron. So it was that was the first panic attack I had. I didn't realize it until later, but I clearly lived with that level of fear and panic and pending doom dread.And it starts to just operate your system after a while. And it was really, I, I don't know. I, I don't know how I made it the first year, and then I knew the second year it was only gonna get tougher. And then that's when the crash happened. And I was getting a ride back with a fellow cadet who was a senior, didn't know him, but my dad had three rules, don't smoke, don't drink, and don't date upper cadets.Now I'm in a school with 4,000 guys. I'm now a sophomore. I actually can date you can't as a freshman, but I have never been on a date in my life. My dad did not. He was very conservative. He did not think dating [00:10:00] would do any good for me or spending the night with others. That was one of his commandments.There's the 10 commandments and there's my dad's 10 commandments. And spending the night with others was number one on, you do not do this. And even in church you don't sit with your friends, you have to sit with mom and dad. You can't fall asleep even though my dad fell asleep, you can't fall asleep.You know, it was, there was just a lot of rules. And having a Southern Baptist upbringing on my father's side and a Lutheran bringing on my mother's side living in the Bible belt, which is, as you know, the foundation of that area. I just got a lot of. Church thrown at me. And it was contradictory because the Lutherans were saying, this is the way to God.And the Baptists were saying this way. And, you know, it was just, I'm sure God was [00:11:00]confused, you know, about what, what he supposedly said. But that's when my car crash happened. And I know at a sole level that that is what got me out of the academy saving face because you, you know I couldn't go back. I, my injuries were so severe.I was in the hospital for four months, seven weeks in I c u two code Blues. And then 19 years later, I remembered my near death accident. I was working at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention and went to Starbucks, got my coffee, and boom, the memory of how I was sitting in the Corvette convertible came back and And then the rest of the memory came back.So people said, well, why did it take 19 years? And I'm like, the only thing I can say to that is when your body feels safe enough, repressed memories as what they're known as will come up. [00:12:00]And that's what happened. And I got the complete story. And so I've been able now, 40 years later to finally publish my book.It's called You Are Deathless. And a near death experience taught me how to fully live and not fear death. It's taken me that long to first of all 20 years, had no memory, just the white lights. And then the next 20 was aligning myself and my search for body, soul, spirit, and mind to all come together.And it's been a journey, a healing journey, and it's not linear. A plus B does not equal C and the healing journey. That was a lot I just gave you.De'Vannon: Well, you know what, it sounded like you needed to get that out. I just, I'm happy to, to allow you to Nicole: do that. Plus southern girls, we can talk. De'Vannon: So, so take, [00:13:00] take me back though. Tell me what the, the MPH, H C R D and the B T D T stand Nicole: for. Okay. Master's in Public Health and, and I had an emphasis in nutrition and then R D N is registered dietician nutrition.So I've worked in hospitals. I was an oncology dietician, a wellness director B T D T I invented that or took it from somebody else, actually. Been there, done that. And that actually is my proudest letters of the alphabet after my name. Because experience trump's theory in any any day for me because it allows a person to have compassion sympathy and empathy.De'Vannon: Right. Ab a Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. And that's why I say I wish this, this country in a, i I, I do not feel like the United States is the greatest country on the world, you know, in the world or nothing like that due to, due to the lack of like, character, you know, and, and the [00:14:00] lack of love that prevails here.And I don't care how much money, how rich it's supposed to be like this, this is a deplorable country and I, I really wish that people had to go to the military and or had to wait tables or had to be a janitor or had to do something like that for like some amount of time. And there are countries that have those requirements because then more people, then everyone would have some version of been there, done that as opposed to standing over here and judging from a distance.Yes. So so, so the title of her book y'all is called You Are Deathless. And and it, and it. You know, talks about, like a lot of, you know, what she's talking about right now, her website. I just wanna tell everyone, you know, it's nicole kerr.com that we'll be going in the show notes that she has a great blog on there and all kinds of information and everything like that too.So take me back to this car accident. You said you're in a a [00:15:00] convertible Corvette. Yeah. Nicole: I don't know if you can see it. De'Vannon: Okay. Yeah, I can see it. Okay. Nicole: That's August 8th 19. That's afterwards. De'Vannon: Okay. So, so, so after they untangled you, so y you just showed a picture of the Corvette for those of you who are not watching on YouTube, and it's basically, it's like somebody like Godzilla took this car, picked it up, twisted it around, and then like tried to.Fold it together, so, yeah. Yeah. So it almost looks like, almost looks like a square, like a, like a block rather than a, a motor vehicle. And so they were able to, to open up that can, I guess they, they had to have gotten the jaws of life or something out for that. So we Nicole: actually flew out of it cuz it was a convertible and we didn't have seat.The, the car didn't even have seat belts back then. And so when he hit the side of a boulder, okay, I was getting a ride back with a senior cadet, didn't know him. We had [00:16:00] been in an Air force function. They had provided beer to underage cadets and they broke their own rules. The officers left before the cadets and I was one of the, I was the last to leave.And so I asked him for a ride back and he said, sure. He had his own agenda. He wanted to go to another bar. He wanted to watch the sunset at the Rocky Mountains i e make out. And I started getting really nervous cuz we had curfew 7 35. We had to be back at the academy. And I didn't wanna get in trouble this year because last year I was, I.Innocently doing favors for people and I would get in trouble. So I marched tours, I served demerits, I served confinements, I did it all. And I was like, I am not doing that this year. So I was really worried about the time element. And he tried to make a sexual pass at me. My memory later revealed and I said no.And he got really angry at me and jerked the steering wheel. The car fishtailed out, and this is at Black Forest [00:17:00] park in Monument, which is just outside the academy. He hit a huge boulder, moved the boulder, the car flipped. We were both thrown out. I was thrown into a ditch. Some bystanders were, were close by, they called 9 1 1.They came out to look at me and they couldn't get any signs of life. So they got a blanket and they covered me up. And then when the Tri Lake Fire Department, and you can kind of see. That was the front page of the newspaper. So they're working on me. And you can see the car landed on its top. Mm-hmm.Okay. So I was gone when I flew out from the windshield, that's when I called it Casper the ghost in the book. But I was just revealed in my meditation in August and the [00:18:00] book was published in August that it was my grandfather that came in the form of an angel and lifted me took me up and so I never hit the ground.I knew when I hit the ground I was gonna die. I knew it, but I went up instead in his arms, and we went to this space. It wasn't really a place, it was just a space. And that's when I, I was not in bodily form. I could see my body on the ground, I could see it in the ditch. It was just a corpse, a mangled corpse.And so this spirit, my grandfather, now I, I, we went to this space and I could hear other voices, other angels, other spirit guides. They weren't speaking English. I don't know what they were. I don't know how I heard them and understood them, but I did telepathy, whatever, but I could hear and communicate.And [00:19:00] so there were two angels next to me and they were saying, you meaning humans need to ask the angelic realm for help. That was the first message, is they're not gonna interfere in our lives unless we ask for help because of free will. We have choices. So that is one of the first messages is start connecting with your angelic realm.We all have at least one guardian angel that's assigned to us. Some of us have more, but start the relationship with your angels or any angels. And people say to me well that's kinda like when you ask the angels to help you for a parking space. I said, it works. It absolutely works because it's not about how big or small something is, it's about the relationship that you can count on them and you can trust them.And it may not look like what you want, but [00:20:00] they will send you signs. You just have to be open-minded. Then the second message that I wanna make sure people hear that I received was to tell people not to be afraid of death. And I was like, whoa, that's a big one. That's a real big one. And I, and so at that moment I knew I was gonna go back in that body and I didn't want to, I was like, no, I do, I, I wanna stay up here because up there death was, or, or that transformation of myself was absolute beauty light, the white light that I had seen.It wasn't the operating or theater room lights. It was, it was the light that almost every near death experience or ex, you know, has Raymond Moody who coined the term near death [00:21:00]experience, that is the single most. Common element that people report is seeing this bright white light, and it's clear, it's not blinding and it's just comforting.It's like you're cocooned in it and it's just so peaceful and beautiful. And the colors on the other side are just magical beyond the, what is it now? 125 cray color box? Is that what we're up to? So, you know, why would you wanna come back from that? There's no negativity at all. So it's, you know, in our.World. I think, you know, every book that's almost written around the subject of death is cloaked with this veil of doom and gloom and death has a cloud of depression and negativity around it. Throughout our culture and society and my own [00:22:00] experience, and I hope yours and others, hundreds of thousands of people because they have enough to have actually studied this and put a report together to list the 10 common lessons of NDEs.And they're, every single one of 'em is positive. And the first one is we do not die. Hence the title of my book. You are deathless. Yes, your physical, your physical body is gonna die decompose. But when you die, your energy body splits open and your soul leaves you and goes home. And we have many.Incarnations of our soul. This isn't our only rodeo. So that was the mission, and it's taken me, I found that out. Okay, think about this. 19 years, I had a gap in my memory. And then boom, it all comes together. And then I have to figure out, okay, what does [00:23:00] does that mean? Because when I died at 19, I was fearful of death.I had the concept of God from my southern. Baptist upbringing and Lutheran, where the teaching was, if you were a bad person that God was duality on one side, God loved you, he would protect you. He was you know, loving, kind. But if you broke the rules, if you were a bad person, if you were a sinner, you would go to a place called Hell where the wrath of God would come and you would burn eternally.Now, as a six-year-old growing up, that scares the wey outta you. So you live your entire life in fear of doing something bad. And I call that concept a vending machine concept of God, and it's not correct. It's a false belief that is not who or what God is. [00:24:00] Yes, take the first part of it, the positive. But that whole second part was invented by man to keep people in fear, which would keep you in control De'Vannon: on the on the aspects of angels.And I think it's, I think it's a beautiful experience that you had. I just wanted to like, like to, to remind people that, you know, when you're speaking you know, two angels and, you know, different things like that, you know, d don't forget to ask them, you know, like how they're doing, you know, cause they're not.And Nicole: thank them. Please thank them after they give you what you De'Vannon: need. They're not, they're not, they're not, they're not God. And you know, they get That's right. They can get run down too. You know, we, we see this illustrated in the book of Daniel in the Bible when Gabriel is coming to the deliver Daniel, his message when he was fasting for those [00:25:00] three weeks for the Nation of Israel.And, and Gabriel is telling Daniel that he was delayed because, you know an op an op, an opposition withstood him until the arch angel Michael came to help him. And so, so th so this, this illustration lets us know that angels have limitations if they have to eat Mannas, because eventually they get run down and they have to be regenerated.So for me, it's not all about accessing the spiritual realm to, to, to get shit from them. You know? So I think that, I think, I think it's important to, to speak. Whenever you're speaking about more than just acquisition than what you can get from them. And so just be like mindful of that people. Nicole: Yeah.And angels come in many forms. You know, they're earth angels and I talk about that. And my book, they're is a chapter called Calling All Angels because I know that the e m t [00:26:00] that brought me back to life was one of my angels. He was they had me covered up, okay. He gets there, he's the first one on the scene, 10 to 13 minutes later, so I'm clinically dead for that long.They had me, you know, under the, he takes the blanket off, he can't get any sign of life. So he does something called a sternal knuckle rub. Have you ever heard of that? It's where they, they go up your, your sternum and it's designed to elicit pain. It's a pain response that the medical team uses. And boy, if there's any sign of life in you that would respond to pain, it's that.So the only sign of life you got was my right eye flickered and my pupil dilated. Now, what do we say about eyes and our souls? De'Vannon: Eyes are the window to the soul. Nicole: Yes. At that moment, my soul came back in through my eye. [00:27:00] I was dead before they couldn't get anything. Okay? So my soul, it left when I was up in the air.Okay? My body split open two out. It went, it comes back when he's doing that and, and, and I often wonder, You know, why did you bring me back? You know? And cuz it's been painful and it's been a hard journey. But that is when the soul came back into my body and at that point he was able to get a blood pressure reading on me of 60 zero.Now that's pretty much dead anyway, but at least he could get that. And they got me these mask pants on. They'd just gotten 'em on the bus That forces all your blood up to your heart. I had had multiple injuries. I cut off my left foot, I severed my right wrist. My pelvis was broken on both sides. Had a rash from skidding on the, the payment of grow burn that went three levels deep, a [00:28:00]laceration between my anal and feature because I remembered sitting in the car.And my leg is on the dashboard and my other leg processes it. Do you remember sitting like that in a convertible? Put your leg on the dashboard De'Vannon: sounds so, so, so California, Nicole: don't ever do that. If you're in an accident, that's the absolute worst way to get injuries. So I cut up my, I had a, a hole between my anal and sphincter muscle and then a huge hole like this cut out of my left thigh.So I had damage to my nerves. Lost the feeling in that whole sexual area. So it was cuz I went butt up through the windshield and so that cut my foot and that injured that area. So, It was just about getting me stabilized that night, and the doctor on call was a maverick. She was the first woman [00:29:00]surgeon in Colorado Springs.She was the first woman to go to medical school at Jefferson College. Let me tell you. She said multiple times, this is not in my hands anymore, you know, whether Nicole makes it. And I just kept coming back to life. You know, I had a surgery code blue, they had to cut me up from here to here and. My parents were in the chapel praying and the surgical nurse went in there and said, we've lost Nicole.I'm so sorry. And so my dad's like, well, we need to figure out where to barrier. And mom's like, I don't believe it. And then two minutes later another surgical nurse runs in and said her heart just started again. And and there was another incident where I had another near death experience and I have an angel that named James that is, that protects me.And I know that sounds weird, but I call him my military angel, but he is here to make sure I [00:30:00] get this message out because. There is no need to fear death. And there's so many of us that have been conditioned or brought up with belief systems where we scare, we're scared of death. And here's the deal.It's gonna happen at every one of us, and it could happen at any age. And that's the other thing is we need to start learning to prepare ourselves not only physically with wills and all that other stuff, but E, but emotionally and spiritually. And understanding that your beliefs about God, whatever that concept of God is, shapes your relationship with death.Because if you believed, like I did when I died, I disobeyed my father, and that's what he told me later when he came to the hospital. I. You had two beers, you smoked one cigarette. And this is [00:31:00]the first time I've done this in my life. At 19, I'm finally gonna have fun. Okay. And you were with a cadet and you kissed him, he kissed you.So in his eyes, I broke his rules and I deserved to quote what I got. So I disappointed God as well. And I have spent you not believe how much therapy I've had to try to let go of that being blamed. And it fractured my relationship with my parents and with my siblings because I felt so guilty about that.And I've been trying to make it up all these years. And then in the epilogue, you're not gonna believe this, but there were four roommates, four women that went in in my class at the same time in my squadron and my roommate. She dropped out. She quit that December of my accident. Okay? [00:32:00] So I had not talked to her in 38 years.I found her on Facebook. We, four girls got together this past May. The book was already at the editors ready to be published. And we all never knew what happened to her. She just never came back. After spring, after Christmas break, she said, Nicole, I'm so sorry. She said I caused the crash. I said, what? No you didn't.The guy did. He was drunk and he is making a pass at me. And you know, he crashed. And by the way, he survived. He even got to graduate cuz his dad wore three stars. But that's a whole nother story cuz rank has its privilege as we know. And she said, you had asked me for a ride back to the academy before the event even started.And I said, yes, we'll go back together. And then when it was over, There was another cadet who was drunk and he wanted me to drive his car back for him. And I really liked him and I wanted to be alone with [00:33:00] him. So when you got ready to get in the car, I told you no I really don't want you in the car.There's one other guy left over there, why don't you go get a ride back with him? And I said, but that guy's been drinking. And she said, oh, it doesn't matter. They've all been drinking. She said, it'll be fine. Just go have some fun, you know, and I'll see you back at the academy. And she never did. So she lived with 38 years of guilt and it still haunts her and she quit because she couldn't bear the thought that if she would've just given me a ride back, both of our lives would've been totally different.So you never know. And I never knew that. My memory part never came back of that conversation. And I said to her, why didn't you ever tell me before? And she goes, well, I just thought you knew. And you are angry at me. So it's so important to communicate trauma and your version of [00:34:00]something and someone else's version of something, because sometimes we just think somebody knows something, but we don't check it out with 'em, and then we go around believing something and it, it just devastates our life.You know, there, De'Vannon: there's so much loss in this life because of things left unsaid, be it in romantic relationships, business relationships. I agree with Nicole. Y'all open your fucking mouth and tell people what the hell you think, know and feel. Rather than assuming they should know or assuming they will know, magically know.Just make it simple. And just say it, even if you think you're stating the obvious, you know, sometimes you need to say the quiet part out loud because you know so much just to be sure everyone's on the same page. Yeah. You know it's, it's not cool to think that, you know, like in my, in my previous relationship that I, [00:35:00] that I just had to end.That, that was one of the things that, that my ex would never, you know, give me, I said, don't, don't ever have one version of reality operating within your head. And you know that I don't know that. Cuz then we're on divergent paths and I'm thinking that we're on the same page and really we're not. And you know, and the only way that that could have ever happened is if he would've opened his mouth and told me what he was feeling and thinking, which he never was able to do that.And so be it friendships or whatever the case may be, just fucking say what's going on rather than letting those negative thoughts come in and, and control you. You could disband that with clarity in communication. Nicole: Yes, and please do it before they die.Don't do it on their deathbed, you know, say the things you need to say now. And I, you know, and, and, and then I went and told my father, you know, dad, you know, I knew the guy was drunk and I, I just, you know, and I had [00:36:00] arranged a, a, a ride back and I was trying to defend myself to my father with this. And he says he still made a bad decision and you should have walked back to the academy.And then, That's when I just went, I haven't talked to my dad since, and I won't, I'm done with him. So, you know, and I was trying to be done with him before, but when he, he's never forgiven me. He's never said he is sorry. He is a narcissist. He is in that military mode my way or the highway. That's how we were raised.I know what's best for you. And he didn't, he never got to understand who I am. And when I published this book, he has not read it. And he just said, you better get God writer. You're really gonna get it. So there's just more fear and I'm just like, you know, my experience with God is God is love. Period, end of sentence, and love is all that matters and is the source of all that exists.And when you think about [00:37:00] source that is God and is there anywhere that God does not exist?De'Vannon: He is no ever president. He is everywhere. And video1562552333: in Nicole: my per, he's not external either. He's not, he's not out there to be looked for. He's within all of us. We are all eternal sparks of God. De'Vannon: Mm-hmm. What I, what I you know, you know, Jesus describes the death. Like he, you know, in the Bible he told us to to, to basically mourn when somebody is born in a rejoice when they die.Because Yeah. When when you They're Nicole: going back home. Yeah. When you, and they're not gonna remember any of this negative stuff. You know? It's like when I got over to the, to the other side God was all around me. God was in me. God, I, you know, I was God. God was present and fullness and oneness. And [00:38:00] most of all, God was love, pure, non-judgmental love.And in that state it was not that I suddenly had been forgiven for my mistakes, is that they no longer existed. Nothing I had done on Earth was being weighed or measured. It was simply the way my story had played out in one realm.So that's another lesson coming from the NDEs is part of the 10 of 'em is we are not judged. And I think one of the worst things we do to ourselves present day is we judge our thoughts, we judge our emotions, we judge our each other. And if we can just get rid of the judgment. That would be De'Vannon: huge, right?God is the God of mercy in, in the, you know, and you know, he [00:39:00] said, judge, not, you know, it's really just that simple. But, you know, we learn all of that judgment from broken people who have positions of authority over our lives, you know, and things like that in society. But that, you know, from the beginning it was not so.You know even the, I think video1562552333: that, Nicole: I think, yeah, I think that's one of the biggest issues I have with religion is the hypocrisy that goes on, especially with things like Jesus's words. I mean, when people say, who would you like to have dinner with? I said, Jesus, I would like to ask him what he thinks of how people have interpreted what he has, quote said or not said based on the Bible.Bless you. And one of the things is the judgment judge, not less G B B judged, you know, and they're judging. You because you're, you're gay because you're whatever the condition is. There's just [00:40:00] still so much judgment and, and it's causing so much fractionation and just anger and hatred and, and it, and it's just like, wow.That is not at all what Jesus meant by that. You know, it's, it's quit judging others and don't judge yourself because that just lowers your esteem and lowers your own vibration. Mm-hmm. De'Vannon: Right. Now, I'm curious some of the other, the common themes of near death experiences besides the white light. You, you said they had, they had done research to find some commonalities.What are some of the other commonalities? Okay. Nicole: We are never alone. That's a big one because people believe like when the with the pandemic, a lot of people were dying alone, but we are never alone. The spiritual realm is always around us and when we die, Angels, deceased, loved ones. Even our deceased [00:41:00] pets, they meet us.And so we, that's why you see people, like, they'll start grabbing at things as they're dying. You know, they'll, they'll, and you're going, what are they grabbing at? But it's like they're having a window into the other realm, across the ba. So they keep switching from that, that perspective to back here on earth, that perspective.And then they finally transition. But we are never alone. We always have a spiritual angel guy, somebody with us. And I think that's more from the human part of us that wants to be there for someone, for us to feel better about ourselves, that we were there. But I know, and I talk about this in the book, a lot of people choose to die when nobody is around.My brother-in-law died from a l s at 51. House full of people. He waited till everyone was out of his room [00:42:00] at some point in the night and passed. He did not want anybody else around him, you know, and I know other people's same situations. They had, had people monitoring, and when someone goes and gets a cup of coffee, the person, you know makes their transition.So I think that is up to the person. And you don't, you know, your, in my opinion, your job is to hold the space for that person as they as they go through this. And I know the human form with death because we are human. There's still suffering, there's still grief, pain, loss, and we have to carefully and compassionately hold and heal that with people.But the cosmic context is benevolent and extraordinary of a what awaits us. And if [00:43:00] we know that true context, it's gonna enable us to live a happier life and prepare for our own graceful passing, you know, not to be resistant and to support others as they approach their own transition. I know that was a lot.De'Vannon: Well Nicole: for me, so that's another one. We're not, we're never alone. We are not judged. Everyone and everything is connected.Okay? We are all energy. When we leave this body that breath. Think about it. When you see somebody at a funeral, they're laid out. The cosmetologist has worked on 'em. They don't, in my opinion, I don't know about you. They just don't look like they did. [00:44:00] They can never get their hair right or their makeup. It just doesn't look like them.Right? And that's because the light, that beautiful light of the energy has been lifted out of them. And that's that breath. The breath. If you see it on a cold day, you see your breath, it vaporizes, its energy transforms. And so we are all connected and we need to start paying attention to the energy and start thinking about, your energy affects me, mine affects, you know, we're all in this, this together.And it doesn't matter the differences because when we. Transition. We go into that, that, that form of soul, which is energy. It's not a human body.[00:45:00]De'Vannon: I, I want you to talk about like your road to rehabilitation. So you let's take it back like physically now, did you have to do like a lot of physical therapy? Were there multiple surgeries? Like when were you able to like, come out of the hospital and go home? Like, and then after that, did you have continued.Rehabilitation. How did it work physically to get you back to, to good? I Nicole: was in i c u now they took me to the closest hospital, which was a community hospital, and they were not prepared for trauma at that hospital, so they had to bring in, I was too critical to move. So they had to bring in ano another nurse.I had to have two nurses on me at all times. I was so critical. They had to bring in nine different specialists. Okay. So they had to bring in an infectious d disease specialist from Denver, because I had three infections set in from all the fiberglass, the feces, the, the, all that stuff that [00:46:00] mixes up in you.I got gang green and sepsis in my right leg. I almost, I was on the verge of amputation of that, and I didn't know it until after it passed. So I was hooked up at one point to 10 different IVs. Okay. And. They had to do what they call a subclavian to put it in there because you run out of veins after a while.So the doctor described to my mother, she is very, very, very three very sick. Okay. And every day it was, I don't know if she's gonna be alive or if she's gonna die today. That's how serious it was. I had to have a colostomy. I don't know if many people know what that is, but that's where they, they cut your where your bowels are and they pull out part of your bowel and they resection that so that you can go to the bathroom.And so here I am at 19 and I wake up from a surgery with my [00:47:00] intestine in a bag, part of it, and going, I've never had sex with anybody. I, I, no one's gonna wanna have sex with me, you know, when they see that back, cuz I couldn't stand it. And so one was an emergency operation from all the infections and they I coded on the way to the operating room.So they couldn't give me the amount of anesthesia that they needed to put, put me out because they would've lost me again. So I went in, like on a muscle relaxer and of Tata anesthesia, and I could feel them, I could hear them talking, I could feel them pulling my stomach. But I couldn't move, I couldn't say anything.And it was awful. It was awful to, to, to feel all this and to hear all this and not be able to do anything. You know, you're just immobile. I had to have my foot sewn [00:48:00] back on, so I had to have. Two skin grafts done. They took it off my thigh and one was the inside of my right thigh that they had to, to plug up with this huge hole.And then the other skin graft went directly onto the tendon on my foot to keep it together. It had a 5% chance of taking, and it did. And the doctor, it's written up in the Denver Medical Journal because it was just unbelievable that it would graft without having to granulate and just. Here, right on the tendon.Now, today, I still have issues. I have to wear those lovely compression socking, but I got my foot. I'm so grateful. I still have my foot. But you know, I have bowel issues from it, from the colostomy. They did reverse the colostomy, but it was, you know, I, I just, and then migraines and the va finally, finally, after 38 years, gave me a hundred percent, I call it [00:49:00] compensation.I don't call it disability, I call it compensation rating. And it took me that many times. I was on my third appeal and the VA rep from North Carolina just moved here. And he said, Nicole, it says, clear in your notes a patient thought initially dead on arrival. That means you had a head injury. Okay. So I don't know how they have missed that all these years.And we filed it with just that phrase. And next thing I know, the money showed up at the bank and I was granted, you know, permanent disability. And I'm just like, I, I think it's just a persistence challenge with the VA and the right wording, because that was my last attempt. They only give you three, but I am finally in that and can get compensated in that, that realm.So I don't have to work because I worked for a long time and I have P T S D and that was only diagnosed two years [00:50:00] ago. So I'd been trying to push myself through things that were so stressful, making the p t s worse. And that has been a huge issue with me is trying to regulate my nervous system and get that on board to be more in a parasympathetic sympathetic state.De'Vannon: You know, hearing all of what you've been through and everything like that, you know, perspective is everything, you know, and the thing that I was, and I, when I got H I v I was freaking out about what might happen. You know, there are for worse things that can happen and I'm not downplaying, you know, the seriousness of H I V and the, you know, hepatitis B, which I also have a history of, you know, but, you know, I feel like accidents like yours are, you know, are worse.You know, cancers, hell Covid can kill you in two weeks, you know? Yeah. You know. I'm, I'm thankful that I'm at a point where I have a good attitude about the diseases that I've had to struggle with, [00:51:00] because now I see how bad it really could have been. You know, those diseases never actually did anything to me.It was just my perception and fear of, of death that that really caused me to do self-harm to myself. And so I'm saying all that to say, people watch your perspective because you might actually hurt, you hurt yourself when you didn't have to be hurt. And for other veterans out there trying to fight and battle and box with the VA for your disability, like the woman said, you gotta keep going.It took a, it took time, but I got my, you know, my, my full rating too, that the, the VA is a breeding ground for the most wicked people who have. Never been veterans. And they come and they sit in there and they try to block us from getting our benefits. And it's even worse when you have someone who was a veteran working at the VA doing the same sort of treachery.So you do have to fight and sometimes you need to get like the D A V or the American Legion or an advocate to represent you. And [00:52:00] what I had to do, I live in Louisiana, but the New Orleans VA is so damn corrupt. People here go to other states. I had to go over to the Houston va, now I talk to the Los Angeles, you know, va I, I mean d a v I went to, I went to the Houston Vav and the Los, and I talked to the Los Angeles, d a v.Any d a center can represent you cuz they're all one big organization. It doesn't matter what state you live in. And so if the VA in your town is fucking up and they're full of assholes, go over to another state, you know, and, and the DAV can help you that all out. Nicole: Yeah. Yeah. I remember I had sent in, I had gone to see, Three new doctors that all documented migraines had injury, because back then in the eighties, they didn't have T b i traumatic brain injury that was not, you know, a known condition that people, you know, doctors were putting down.And when the it came back rejected, not enough evidence. And I was like, did they even read that? [00:53:00] And when I called up there, they admitted that they hadn't read it. There are so many claims coming through. And so that's when I got the advocate here in North Carolina to help me. And he said, we're gonna do this and let's see what happens because you deserve it.And I just wanted the validation that they now have a connection between P T S D and migraines that is clearly established. And if you have P T S D and you have migraines, then you should be getting compensated for both.But anyway, so yeah, I totally agree with you on that. But I had to go through rehab. I had to learn to walk again. I started in a swimming pool. I went home in December. It was a big to-do. They met me at the airport. I had a kidney infection. I didn't want anybody to touch me cause I was so in pain. But, you know, it was a slow slog.And physically, and I will tell [00:54:00] you, it's it's challenging When it happens, you get so much attention and then as you get better, people just fall off. And it's very lonely, you know, because you're still having to pursue the rehab and your friends are in college, they're having a good time, their lives go on, and you just feel like you've been, you know, gypped that and especially when you don't have a memory of what happened, you know, and, and then you're just expected to get on with life.At least that was the expectation In my family, you look physically like you can do things again. So forget about your mind or your spirit. And I think there's something, there's spiritual abuse that goes on, and there's spiritual amnesia and spiritual amnesia is what we all get when we get all these filters put on us as we start growing up.And. [00:55:00] I love it. In my book, I talk about, I did neuro emotional technique for seven years with people including children. And I was with a little girl who was six years old who was coming from a evangelical background who was scared she was going to hell cuz she did something bad. Now she's adopted so that's even worse.So I asked her how she sees God and she eagerly told me God is a blue spirit with colors and balloons in all different colors, no head and can talk. And clearly this little girl is having a direct experience with God, with no filters. And to me, of all the definitions I've heard, I resonate with that the best.You know, there's nowhere where there's energy of God is not. And it just talks to you in a way that you talk to it, it's your own. Relationship, you have to connect to it. It's [00:56:00] a direct experience you have to come into. And I love all the colors because that's what I saw on the other side was the colors.You know, it was just amazing. And she saw 'em as balloons, you know, and it just I was just like amazed. And of course, her parents were like, when I told her there was no hell she looked at her mom, she goes, mom, is that true? There's no, there's no hell with fire in the devil down there. She goes, we'll talk about that later.And I never heard back from her, but, you know, I like to take that. Quote, because children are so innocent and they haven't been subjected to all these indoctrinations and theories and you know, everybody is going to have a different concept of God. But know that from my experience and hundreds of thousands of others, that God is love and we will see our loved ones when we return home.[00:57:00]And you know, I think loving ourselves and others is the most important thing we can do because when you truly love yourself, and I mean love. Unconditional love. All your mistakes, your messes, everything. When you understand that love does not have love is not only a verb and a noun and an emotion, but it's an energy.And when you're around people who have that love energy, you can just feel it, you know? I don't know if that's the way you felt when I was reading your the, the end of your book and your epilogue with the pastor that passed away that was real influential. Sorry, I forgot her name. Evangel Nelson.Yes. If she was like that for you, where she just lit up. You could see the light in her eyes, you could feel it, you know, she was, [00:58:00] and that to me is love. And that they accept you for just for your beingness. And that's what we all need to unwrap ourselves from all these layers and get to that part of us, the being that we were born to be, which is our soul, which is just love and light and beauty and grace, and all these beautiful things.De'Vannon: Let there be light, let there be light. Let there be so much light. Yeah. Nicole: And that's, we we're light workers. That's what you have a light above your head this whole time. And I'm just sitting there. It's like you have a little, little halo kind of, and we are, you know, we are, this is my vocation now. You know, I've had occupations, but my vocation is to help people to try to understand it's time to awaken, to stay, to get out of this unconscious, keep repeating generational things.Start understanding your relationship [00:59:00] with what you call, or whatever the concept of God is, and how does that work in your life, you know, instead of waiting for something terrible to happen and then you start thinking and delving into this. De'Vannon: That is so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so beautiful. And I thank you so much for sharing all that you have.So tell us any, like, last words that you have and And and then I'll go ahead and give everybody your website and everyth. Well, Nicole: first of all, I have to say I love your beard being purple because that purple is royalty and purple is spirituality. Okay? So it's a high vibration which you emanate so that, you know, hopefully our goal is to move our brave vibration upwards, you know?But you know, I guess my main message, you know, it was what Spirit said is not be afraid of death, because if you are, [01:00:00] you're not gonna truly live your life and. This world is so beautiful and I wrote this book because I wanna help other people with their fears about death and to support you through the loss of loved ones.And I hope my book will inspire you to live fully and freely with your heart and your hands wide open. You know? And that's, that was my intention. And it's on Amazon, it's on Barnes and Nobles. You can get it through independent books. It's only what I told somebody the other day, we have these little fairs that come through and one came through Newburn and they were selling those funnel cakes and they were $10.And I said, oh my God, my book is cheaper than the funnel cake. I was like, At 9 99, I was just like, all that work, 13 years to get this book outta me. And a funnel cake, which you eat in what? Five minutes? It was more than that. So it's coming out on Audible [01:01:00] probably in the next month. I just finished my last recording of that the rerecord yesterday.And people, that is not as easy as you think to read your own book. I don't know if you've done that yet with your book. Yeah, I have, but De'Vannon: it is hard. Oh yeah. It, it's because it's like you have to relive everything all over again. Yes. Every time you go through and you don't just read through, you may have to reread each chapter, each section many times to get it right.So you need therapy after you back and read your own book. Nicole: Yeah. And then you hear yourself telling your story, and that's like a, that's a wow. So it was really it was a good thing to go through, but it was a healing, it was another layer in the healing process. And I just want people to know that too, is that healing takes time.Get help if you're stuck. There's lots of resources out there. And to truly, truly come home to who you really are as a soul. [01:02:00]De'Vannon: Alanis Mariette said it like this, let's not equate death with stopping. Nicole: Oh gosh, no, it's, it's just, you're going on. It's like John Lennon said, you just get outta one car and go into the next.De'Vannon: Right, so, so her name is Nicole Kerr. The book is called You Are Deathless. I'll put a link to Amazon and the show notes. The website is nicole kerr.com. That will go in the show notes. She's on Facebook, Instagram, LinkedIn, and all of that will go in the showy notes. Is everything. Always does. Thank you so very much for sharing and shining your light upon us and with us today, Nicole and everyone.Just remember that everything is gonna be all right. Nicole: Thank you so much, Devon, and I really appreciate it. You've been a joy to talk to.De'Vannon: Thank you all so much for taking time to listen to the Sex Drugs in Jesus podcast. It really [01:03:00] means everything to me. Look, if you love the show, you can find more information and resources at Sex Drugs in jesus.com or wherever you listen to your podcast. Feel free to reach out to me directly at Davanon Sex Drugs and jesus.com and on Twitter and Facebook as well.My name is Davanon, and it's been wonderful being your host today. And just remember that everything is gonna be all right. 

Intro: Nasty neighbors in the Great Unraveling, The Rest MovementLet Me Run This By You: RejectionInterview: We talk to Tina Huang about soap opera acting, LaGuardia High School, the Playwrights Horizon program at Tisch, breaking down barriers for Asian actors, Ammunition Theatre Company, Revenge Porn or the Story of a Body by Carla Ching, Bay Area Theatre, Pig Hunt, starting a fake management company,  Word for Word Performing Arts Company, Intersection for the Arts, Campo Santo, Amy Tan, 1:1 Productions, Karla Mosley, Jeanne Sakata. FULL TRANSCRIPT (unedited):1 (8s):I'm Jen Bosworth Ramirez this, and I'm Gina Pulice.2 (11s):We went to theater school together. We survived it, but we didn't quite understand it.3 (15s):20 years later, we're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of2 (20s):It all. We survive theater school and you will too. Are we famous yet?0 (34s):You2 (35s):Part of the building.1 (36s):Okay,2 (37s):Great. I don't know how it's gonna go.1 (41s):I mean, nobody knows how it's gonna go. It's unknowable until we know it.2 (45s):That is true. Good morning.1 (48s):Good. Margie,2 (50s):Your makeup looks amazing.1 (53s):Thank you. I'm not doing well, so I'm acting opposite. You know that skill?2 (59s):Oh, I know. Oh, that's like, I would say like 90% of adulthood. Anyway. What's happening? What, what is, if you wanna get into it, like what's the overall arching shittiness,1 (1m 10s):The overarching thing is just, Well, my neighbor I told you about.2 (1m 15s):Okay. And I just wanna put it out there and we'll get into the story, but I wanna put it out there that I, we are in, and we've said this before on the podcast in what I would call, and others like Gina would call probably similar, the great unraveling of our society. So it's like Rome is falling and I, I don't even say it, it sounds so cavalier the way I'm saying it, but I literally every day see evidence of the great unraveling of the American sweater. You know what I mean? Like it's coming out. Yes. Yeah. And we, it's okay. And I think one of those things is terrible neighbors, right? Like, people who are terrible are just getting more terrible.2 (1m 58s):So Gina has a neighbor that is very terrible.1 (2m 0s):Yeah. People just over the last several years do seem to feel way more comfortable just being extremely hor. Horrible. Horrible. So what, So this is the same neighbor that I've talked about before. And basically the deal with her is it's like she's obsessed with us. And, and like, what she doesn't understand is that we just work very hard to avoid her, you know, avoid interacting with her at any cause. I realized yesterday after she screamed at me that she has screamed at three fifths of my family members.1 (2m 40s):She only hasn't screamed at the nine year old and the, and the 14 year old. It's so insane. She's the one who Aaron was walking the dog and he had a flashlight and the dog was really young and he was trying to train him. So he kept like stopping and starting screens out. It's very disconcerting to be sitting in my living room and seeing a flashing light in front of my house, house. Like, he's like, I'm walking the dog. And the same one who when she was walking her dogs and he was walking our dog, she's like, It's not a great time to be walking your dog because her dogs are out of control. And she's yelled at my son a few times. Anyway, so what happened was, I walked the dog, I picked up the poop, I had the little baggy. If it's anybody else's house, I feel comfortable putting it in their trash2 (3m 23s):Can. Yeah. Here's the deal. Here's the deal. I hate to tell you people, but poop is trash. There's like nowhere else to put it. So if you, if you are like not okay with pooping in your trash in a bag tied up, then you don't need to live in a society where there are dogs or where there are trash. Cause that's what it1 (3m 44s):Is, Honestly. Honestly. And it's like, I feel like a big part of what's driving all this bad behavior is just like, so much entitlement. Like, I'm entitled to have only my trash in my trash can. And it's like, okay, you've never lived in New York City, right? Cause you don't understand anything about cooperative living. And anybody, whether they live in my neighborhood or not, is welcome to put their poop2 (4m 6s):Back. Yeah, dude.1 (4m 7s):So I'm walking by and I'm talking on the phone stuff, somewhat distracted, and I see this trash can, and I go, I like reach out ever So tentatively, not tentatively, but like, I had barely started to reach out, realized it was their house didn't. And within milliseconds, she is out of her house screaming at me. And I hadn't even, you know, put the poop in there. And I, I'm talking about misbehavior. I mean, I've, I don't think I've ever done this except for like having road rage in the car where the other person really can't hear me. Like I just screamed every obscenity Yes.1 (4m 48s):In the book. I, I hope nobody else, I'm sure somebody else heard, but nobody, nobody's contacted me. And, you know, I'll say this, I'm much better about taking a beat. Like, I really wanted to blast her. I really wanted to like write a horrible message to her. I really want, and I, and I don't, I'm not refined enough, well enough evolved enough to like get right to like, what's, what's the need of the matter? But I have figured out that I should probably just not say anything until, until I've thought about it. I had a good long think she messaged me on social2 (5m 22s):Media. What1 (5m 23s):She said, I'm sorry, I accused you of throwing trash in our trash can. And I just blocked her. I'm just like, you know, I, I, I wanted, what I wanted to say is like, you have no idea how much time we spend trying to avoid you. You are unwell. You have yelled at three fifths of my family, like, never speak to me or my children ever again. Forget I exist. Forget I live right across the street from you because that's what I'm trying to do about you. So2 (5m 50s):Instead you just blocked her. Well listen that, that, because when you told me this story yesterday that she, the the reach out on social media hadn't happened. So now I'm like, I think what, before you said that part, I was gonna say like, I think our only recourse is what people do, which is start videotaping the insanity. And I'm not sure that's a really a good solution. Like, I think that like, oh sure, people put it on social media and then there's a laugh, but then we're really laughing at sort of the horribleness and the, and the mental illness of others. And it's their person and who knows how that's gonna negatively affect them or their job or their family. So I don't, like, I understand the, the urge to videotape everything, but I'm not sure that's really the answer with, with non-criminal behavior.2 (6m 40s):If it's a crime, then it's something else. But if it's just to embarrass or ashamed someone I, I'm, I have second thoughts about the videotaping now, but good for you for just blocking it. It, you know, what it is, is if to say, we are done with this, we are done with this.1 (6m 57s):Yeah. Yeah. And you lie down with dogs and you get fleas. Yes. And I don't really wanna bring that energy into my life. And sometimes, you know, if you get, if you're like a person who consumes as much media as I do, you get this false sense of like, what I would do in that, you know, in a certain situation when it's theoretical, I feel very, like, not even brave, but just like aggressive and entitled. And I can get to a point where I feel like I could hear myself saying like, Oh, I would kill that person. Or I would, which of course I would never do. In fact, I don't even wanna like, say anything unkind about them in a very public way. So knowing me and knowing my values, and you could just never go wrong if you stick with your own values. Like, it's not my value to, it's not my value to tell people, You know what, here's a thing you need to know about yourself.1 (7m 43s):And it's not my val even though I do that with people, people that I know, but not strangers. And it's my value to like, keep as much peace in my life as possible. And it's not my value to engage with toxic people with whom I could only ever have a toxic Yeah. You know,2 (8m 0s):Interaction. Right. It's not gonna get better. It's like a legit never gonna get better because it's just, that's not how, that's not how it works if you engage in that. So anyway, that okay. But that, that has nothing to do with the overarching shitty No,1 (8m 14s):The overarching thing is just like, wow, parenting is so hard. People, people are really, people learn at different rates. People learn lessons at different rates. People mature at different rates. Like, and having patience for somebody who's really behind in so many ways is exhausting and overwhelming to me. So there's that piece. There's like, you know, a relative with having a health crisis, there's,2 (8m 45s):Oh,1 (8m 46s):There's just stuff going on. Yeah. And, but this is what I'm doing differently this time. Okay. I am trying to stay with myself, which is to say, yes, things are terrible, things are going wrong, but I am not gonna abandon myself in the process. Yeah. Of like, feeling my way through it. And in fact, that's another new thing, is I'm feeling my way through it and I'm really trying to apply this thing about taking a beat and like how crazy, you know, Aaron is also having, we're simultaneously having this growth moment. And, and you know, he recently made a big stride with somebody in his family who's having a health crisis, and he, he said, You know something I like, I'm not gonna go to crazy town.1 (9m 32s):Like I, he, I saw the light bulb for him. Like, I have a choice about whether or not I wanna go to crazy town on this. And actually I don't, because actually it's bad for my, because you know, I was thinking about this when I was at Costco today and I was doing some something small and I was wanting to like, do it really fast. And I thought, why do I wanna do everything so fast? Like, my shoulders are tense all the time. Like, I don't wanna do anything so fast anymore. There's no reason I'm not in any rush. Like I, there's, it's, it's just a habit from youth. I feel like just doing everything in a big rush, rush, rush. Yeah. And I think it's time to let that go.2 (10m 9s):Oh, I mean it's, so I feel like it's such an intense and like right on timing because there's this whole movement about rest. Have you heard about this? Like rest is radical, Rest is as a revolution. So there's a black woman and I believe I, I I I, I am ignorant to what her like specialty is area. And I just started hearing about it. And Miles my husband was listening to her an interview with her about how rest, not napping, not, but like r really snatching and holding dear to the idea of rest as, as radicalism, rest as a revolution opposite of hustle.2 (10m 50s):Culture is like gonna be the way that we, this is my interpretation of what she's saying. Like, the way that we sort of fight injustice and in fight racism, all the isms is by really embracing rest culture as opposed to hustle culture. So1 (11m 8s):I love that. And by the way, black women are spawn every good thing there is in the world. Like, you find a trend that's happening in society that you like and think is really positive. You can definitely trace it back to a black woman who, who, who, who started, who started it. So that's great. I'm pro rest, I'm, and I'm also trying to do less of like I'm a human being, not a human doing. And like, if I don't cross everything off of my to-do list, that doesn't, you know, it's not, it's not like I'm, it's not a wasted day if I didn't get all my little tasks done, you know, especially I was emotionally dealing with something else.2 (11m 45s):Yes, yes. That's the other thing. It's that the, the emotional, you know, I think like if it's become such sort of a, I don't know, buzzword or whatever phrase, emotional labor, but I do think that the time that I spend thinking, feeling and, and, and doing internal work, I've never counted as anything. And I think the way, and, and watching, especially having watched in white male dominated Hollywood for so long, Let me tell you something, Those motherfuckers rest okay. They rest when they, when, So don't you think for one second that the people who are on top or seemingly running shit or whatever or are running shit are not resting because they are, they can, they may set the trend for hustle culture, but they're really talking ultimately about the rest of us hustling because they have yachts and vacation homes.2 (12m 43s):They rest. I don't care what you say. You know what I mean? Yeah.1 (12m 46s):It's, it's such a, it's such a, I don't even know how to describe it. It's such, it's like a comical notion that these masters of the universe are really hustling all the time because all of their work is built on the backs of people who are oppressed in one way or another. So really everybody under them is hustling. Correct. Much, much more than they are,2 (13m 8s):Right? Yes.1 (13m 9s):And we've been able to outsource all their, you know, a domestic, everybody we've been able to out Yeah. Everything. Yeah.2 (13m 16s):And like, I think, I think the other, the other sort of weird shit is that like, you know, the older I get, and we've talked about this a lot on the podcast, is the more I realize like it's all a pyramid scheme, right? Like, so any capitalism thing that you are into, whether it's Hollywood, whether it's Wall Street, whether it's, I don't care, like anything, whether you work in tech, anything is all basically a pyramid scheme because that is what capitalism is. And so I feel like there are just more and more subtle ways in which I am seeing that the, you know, the rules are never fair and the what's behind the curtain is always the same, which is a select few who tend to be, you know, white males are really running the show.2 (14m 10s):And we shall see what if it, if it changes with, without a civil war. Like, I, I don't know.1 (14m 17s):Yeah. Yeah. And you know, I I I always think of like great ideas for memes, but then I never make them. But we should do one of like, you know, a picture of that, of the Wizard of Oz and, and when we see the curtain and you know, what the internet is what has opened the curtain really, you know, kind of exposed and reality TV to some degree has exposed and documentaries have exposed like the truth of what's going on. The great unraveling is also like the great discovery of what the actual truth is.2 (14m 48s):Sure. Yes. I mean, when you, when you unravel the sweater, it's like what is under there is is like this old decrepit white dude who's flabby and, and not in shape telling the rest of us that we're fat lards and need to get it together. And that is what's happening. So I'm not, and the other thing I'm not doing, it's really interesting. It's like I've made a conscious decision to literally stop following up with people who are not following up with me.1 (15m 22s):Yes. Yeah.2 (15m 23s):I'm not following up, I'm not circling back. I'm not, I'm not hitting you up again. I'm not waiting three months and then putting it on my calendar to circle back. I'm done, I'm done with all that. I don't, I don't have anymore resources to circle back. Like, I'm not willing. Yeah. So if we have a thing and we're supposed to meet and you can't do it, or you, you keep putting it off, it's over. Unless you wanna come out of the blue and say, Hey, I realize that like we never met. Are you interested in meeting on this day at this time? And then I am okay. Because it is just my following up is taking up too much time. I'm not, I'm not1 (15m 58s):Interested taking too much time. It's, that's emotional labor too. And also, like I've gotten to the point in life where I, if, if I reach out and somebody says, Yeah, and then we go, you know, we try to firm it up and they, they ghost me, which by the way, I have done bajillions of times me to, I just understand it as the way that you're communicating to me non-verbally that you actually don't wanna be part of this thing. Correct. Which is totally fine because a lot of us over commit and can't, you know, carry out our commitments. It's fine. But I'm less inclined even after like one interaction that because the person is telling me who they are, if not who they are, how they actually feel. You know, because you make, you make, you make time for whatever you want to make2 (16m 38s):Time for. That is absolutely true. And I also feel like I am so like, okay, so we bought this house, we bought, I don't know if you know this, but we bought the second house. We didn't buy the first house. The first house was got invested with no, Oh yeah. I forgot to tell you this because I was waiting for the podcast. But, and then, anyway, that first house, I have to send you the pictures of our real house. The first house was owned by Open Door, which is a horrible private equity company that just bought up all the houses in southern California. And anyway, they communication is horrible. They treated my realtor and us like crap. And, and so we just walked away from the deal, got our earnest money back because they would not fucking fix their fucking $8,000 termite problem.2 (17m 23s):So we were like, bye, I'm done. So then we found this other house built in 1980 that I fucking adore. And so it is so dope and I am restoring it to its 1980s glory. So it's gonna be an eighties. Like every room, every room is gonna have sort of an anchor of 1980. It's a very specific year because it's like the, the seventies are still, which is why I was like, can you make my neon sign1 (17m 48s):Pink? Yes, By the way, which I did look into and I would love to do for you, but to get what we wanna put on it is like a minimum thousand dollars.2 (17m 57s):Yeah, let's not do that. Don't do that. We'll do it. Yeah. We1 (18m 1s):Could slash I was trying to do like fa slash o you know, as a, as an acronym.2 (18m 9s):Let's just do people do it all the time. People put f fa Yeah, yeah, just do that. Don't worry about it. Okay. But so, okay, so what I'm saying is like, I'm obsessed now with picking out pieces for this new home that we, we, we close on the 7th of November and we move at the end of November. And so all this to say is like, I've realized I would much rather look at giant pink velvet sectionals that are retro refurbished from the 19, from 1980 than fucking follow up and circle back with your motherfucking whatever you're gonna help me with. Yeah. I would much rather look at, oh my God, they made what in the eighties.2 (18m 51s):That is, I I would much rather like focus it on my life and like how to bring creativity and art to this our first home that we're gonna own. You know, And then fucking track you, your ass down. Who doesn't wanna hang out with me in the first place? Bye bye.1 (19m 13s):Hey,2 (19m 14s):Let run this by1 (19m 15s):You today is about rejection.2 (19m 25s):I love it.1 (19m 26s):I'm sure we've talked about it here. Oh, I'm sure we run it by each other before here. But, you know, it's one of those perennial topics. So I, I liked truly by happenstance learned about an opportunity to direct something. Not with a theater company that I used to work with, but a different or organization. And it just so happened they were doing this play and, and the person who was producing it was like, Oh, we're looking for a director who's this and this? And I go, Oh my God, that's me. Yeah. So she says, Great, you know, and submit. And I submitted and, and I had, I submitted and four months before I got a call from anybody saying, Can you come in for an interview?1 (20m 10s):And then when they did, not a call, an email from somebody who emailed me at 2:00 PM asking me if I could come at 7:00 PM2 (20m 18s):Yeah.1 (20m 19s):Now I wanted to do this. So I, I did, I hustled, I got it together. I wrote up like my, I wrote like a thesis basically on who I am as a director. And then I went to the interview with, with eight, eight or nine people there.2 (20m 35s):Oh my god.1 (20m 37s):Yeah. And you know, there was one qualification for this job that I was missing, but it wasn't something, It wasn't, to me it wasn't a deal breaker. And I was, I was very upfront, I said it right in the beginning anyway, this theater is not necessarily that high profile, which is an understatement.2 (21m 0s):I just can't believe that's too many people in a fucking interview. No, I literally wrote eight person It's too scary in person.1 (21m 8s):Yes, in person. And honestly, like even that wasn't bad because I, you know how you can just get in there and be in the zone and turn it on. And I was charming and I was, you know, an answering questions like honestly, but in a way that I felt demonstrated my competence, et cetera. Now I didn't exactly have it in my mind, like they'd be lucky to have me, but when I got rejected, I thought they would've been lucky to have me. Like, that was a mistake. What2 (21m 32s):The fuck? Did they reject you? What the fuck? Who'd they pick? What the fuck?1 (21m 36s):They, I don't know. And I've, you know, I'm trying to be politic here cuz there's people that I like who are part of this group, but it just, it just didn't work out that way. They, they, so, I don't know, I don't know who they picked, but they, but at the end of her email she said, We'd like you to re resubmit for like, this next opportunity. And so I'm working on, you know, like, it's not that if I had to do it over again, I would've done it differently. But when I really got clear with myself about things, I, you know, I was not that excited about this opportunity because it wasn't going to do anything for my career.1 (22m 21s):It really was just gonna be like an opportunity to direct and flex my muscles, which I would've loved to do. And so I, I, you know, as an actor you have to deal with rejection all the time. I just would love to know, like, actors do seem to have amazing strategies, seasoned ones, and the thing I hear the most often people say is like, after the audition, just forget it. Don't ever think about it again. But I would love to hear what your strategy2 (22m 45s):Look are. I think that for people that are, that are working and auditioning or interviewing all the time that you, that that is a really good strategy. The Brian Cranston method, which is you, you just do it and forget it. However, for those of us who don't do that every day, all day long, where it's like the one thing is more important because it's the one thing that we go out for. Like, I, like for me, I don't audition all the time. So like, when I get an opportunity from my agent, I take it really seriously and I wanna book it. And I'm, I really put in a lot of work in time. Okay, fine.2 (23m 24s):So I, it's so easy to say one and done, like forget it. But I think that that's great if that's where people are, like Brian Cranston, Okay, does he even have to audition for things anymore? I don't know. But for me, the thing that really works is what something you just said, which is to really go through and say, did I, what, what did I want about this thing? Because did I just wanna be picked? Because of course that's really valid. Like who the fuck doesn't wanna be special and picked if you say you don't, you're a sociopath like that, I don't care. You know? So I wanna be loved and picked, so that hurts on that level.2 (24m 6s):And then if I go deeper, I'm like, okay, but what is the thing that I liked about this particular interaction? Possible collaboration. Okay, well I really wanted to get more practice on what for me would be like practice on set, working out how not to be nervous on set. Okay. So I I'm gonna miss that opportunity, but like if I look at the text, did I really connect to it? Not really. So it's not that. So I think it's just like literally like what you said before, which is giving yourself and myself the time to feel my way through and think, okay, like what is upsetting about this? What is upsetting for me? It would be, if I was in your shoes, it would be like, I spent a lot of time and energy interfacing with these people.2 (24m 50s):Even if it was like, so if you, from when you submitted, even though that you weren't like thinking about it all the time, it was still hanging in the air for four months. Right? It's a four month long. Even if it's in the back of your, of, in the ethos, it's still there. Okay. So it's still like on the table. And then you finally have an interview with all these people, lovely people, whether or not it doesn't matter, you're still give, putting out so much fucking energy. And so what it feels to me, like, I would feel like, oh, like I did my best. I put myself out there, I made a case for myself and my work in front of a lot of people and I didn't get the thing.2 (25m 31s):And that just feels shitty.1 (25m 33s):It does. It just, and there's no way around it. Like sometimes things just feel shitty. And I did definitely wanna be picked the, the idea that somebody would, you know, the, like I'm a sucker for an opportunity to be picked for something. I don't, I don't necessarily like avoid things. I don't avoid things that could, you know, possibly lead in rejection. I, I, I approach those things or I try to, but it was the thing I said earlier, like, I just wanted, I just thought, oh, it'd be so fun to, to work on this, but upon reflection there are 1 million things I could be working on and would love to work on. And that would've prevented me from do, you know, for a period of time that would've prevented me from working on those things.1 (26m 16s):So it's a blessing and I what's for you will not go by you. I totally believe in that. And it was my, in fact it was my mantra that, you know, yesterday when I found out. So,2 (26m 26s):And, and, and, and to be fair, like you just found out. So like, if it was like three months from now, like I've had friends who, and I, I mean I may have had this too, where like it lasts more than 24 hours. This feeling of why did I get rejected? Why, why, why? What could I have done? Why didn't they like me? Look, it's been less than 20, you know, you're fine. Yeah. Like, you're not, Yeah. So I, I but rejection is something that is like the, the true, the true greats that I love seem to, their take on rejection is like, it gets easier the more you get rejected.1 (27m 13s):Today on the podcast, we are talking to Tina Wong, You are in for such a treat. Tina is amazing. Not only does she star and has starred on almost all of the soap operas, you've seen her in television film, She's an actor, a writer, a director, a producer. She does film television. She's a voiceover artist too. She does theater. She truly, truly, truly does it all. We really loved talking to her and we hope you enjoy our conversation with Tina Juan,0 (27m 47s):I'm2 (27m 47s):Not totally losing, losing it. Anyway, you survived and you went, you did a lot of things. I, I mean, first we're gonna get to it all, but can I just say, and I can because this is, this is, this is the platform to say it. I love that you were on two soap operas and more people, maybe more than two. Were you on more than two or just4 (28m 7s):Yeah, yeah,2 (28m 8s):Because Yeah, go ahead.4 (28m 11s):No, most recently just two, but yes.2 (28m 13s):Okay. So here's the thing about that is that I don't care. We went to theater school and I know a lot of people think that that is, or some people talk shit about soap operas in terms of acting. Yeah. I have never seen or heard actors work as hard as my friends that have been on soap operas. And in terms of the pace and the pacing and the, the amount of work that is required of, of, of actors at soap operas a stunning. So I just love it because I think that it is like, from what my, what I know about it, it's like a gymnastics routine that people are doing on those sets. So we'll go, I just wanna say that I like give full props to that because it's not a joke soap opera work.2 (28m 55s):It is not a joke. Thank4 (28m 56s):You. Yeah, thank you. I appreciate that. Shut2 (28m 58s):Out. Yeah, thank you.1 (29m 0s):So I'll just ask then, pursuant to that, because I think you are the first person we're interviewing who was on a soap opera, and I would love to know everything about the process of your audition and how you, Cause I've heard, I, I used to, I used to, when I was in high school, my show was days and I read soap, Opera Digest and everything. But I would love to know, like I've heard some people describe it as more of a, it can sometimes have a feeling of more of a regular job since it's like daytime hours, et cetera. But I would love to hear what your experience of just the work of being on a soap opera.4 (29m 34s):Well, first of all, I love everyone that I work with. I'm, I'm on days, so, but you're2 (29m 40s):Still on it. Oh my, my gosh.4 (29m 41s):I'm still on it. I'm still on it. So in fact, I'm like shooting six episodes next week. So I'm, I'm on a little break in Canada, just like here having a little vacation before we go.2 (29m 54s):Good for you. Oh my gosh. Six in a week. It's like Saturday Night Live. What's happening? Okay. How did you get on these? What was your first one that you were on, first of all? Was4 (30m 2s):It the first one? The first one I was on was I think days. And then when I first came to LA and then I did General Hospital and then I did Young and the Restless, and then I did, then I was on Bold and the Beautiful and Days at the same time during the Pandemic. And then now I'm on days Doing days.2 (30m 24s):Oh my Tina, Tina Bow Tina. This is, this is, this is incredible because what this tells me is that you are extremely obviously talented, but we know that because I've seen you on Rezo and aisles, all the things, but it's also, you are, it must be really wonderful to work with because people keep bringing you back and back and back. So you must be like a real sort of team player, which I bet is part of your theater tra like you are an ensemble. Yes. Right?4 (30m 53s):Yes. I think the best part about doing any of this is the collaboration part. You know, when people don't want, it's funny when people don't like notes and don't like getting notes. I'm always like, I love notes. Like I can't just do this on my own and act in a bag. Like I need, I need you to like tell me what's going on. What do you see that I don't see, you know, all of that is, that's the best part. The collaboration. Yeah.1 (31m 14s):So I'm still eager to know a little bit more about like how you, how it started with your audition and how you experience the day to day work of being a soap opera for actor Sure. As opposed to any other type of actor.4 (31m 26s):Sure. Well, I, I got the audition to, to go in for days and I read for Marni Satya, who, I hope I'm saying her name right, who's the casting director. And it went well. And she said, you know, we have a call back. And I said, great. I can't remember if that was the next day or if that was the same day. It may have been the same day. And she told me to just wait, I can't remember. Cuz the producers were upstairs and they wanted to do producer sessions right away and, or it may have been the next day and she, they sent sides, you know, again, but I just assumed they were the same audition and it was like 14 pages. It was like a lot of pages. But just so you know, soap scripts are, you know, one and a half spacing.4 (32m 9s):Oh yeah. So it's not single spacing, but2 (32m 11s):Still, still it's a dialogue. Listen, I, I'm like an under 10. I like always do an under 10 because that's my jam. I have trouble with that. I don't, Oh my, you must be, you're okay. So you get all these pages and you assumed it was the same, but I'm guessing it wasn't the same.4 (32m 27s):So I show up and she wanted just read all of us ladies that came back in to, to for the producer session and just like talk to us and all that kind of stuff. And she said, So you got the new scenes? And I said, New scenes, No. And then she said, Oh well we gotta go, we gotta go up to the producers right now. So we all walked up and she goes, Don't worry, I'll put you last, you know, don't hear the new scripts.2 (32m 51s):Oh my god. The new scripts. I'm peeing my pants right here. Okay, go ahead. And I4 (32m 56s):Don't remember how different it was, but I, I think it was quite different.2 (32m 60s):Like,4 (33m 1s):And she said, just take, you know, whatever time we'll put you last. And there was like maybe four, four women that, excuse me, my nose is running, but four women ahead of me and I just studied. Oh2 (33m 12s):My God. You were like, okay, nyu. Okay, tons of Shakespeare, memorization don't fail me now. Right. So, okay, so you go, were you nervous? Which it's4 (33m 23s):Harder when you get older.2 (33m 25s):No shit. Okay. Right. So you go in the room and there's producers there, obviously it's a producer's session. And is the casting lady still in the room with you?4 (33m 34s):She, she's still in the room and it was only one producer, the executive producer, so it's just him. But it was a big conference room. Anyway, when I was waiting to go in, one of the actresses, like, I guess they overheard what had happened and this, this another actor said, You didn't get the sides? And I said, No, you didn't get the new scenes. I said, No. And she said, That's sucks. That's terrible. I'm like, Yeah, I'm just gonna study. Yeah, I'm2 (34m 3s):Just studying like, be quiet. Like leave me alone. Right,4 (34m 7s):Right.2 (34m 7s):Not helpful. Not helpful. Not helpful.4 (34m 10s):I'm, I'm not that person. I don't compete with anybody in the audition room. I compete with myself and I think maybe that's part of my success. I just, I'm hard enough on myself. I don't need to add like everyone else has a distraction. But it was really interesting. So, so then he, they called me in and it went really well. I mean, it was just this huge conference room with a giant table in between us. So it was like, not like a theater setup or an audition room, A normal audition room. And it went really well. I mean, I think I sobbed, I think I was shaking, I think like all of those things. And maybe it was from the, that cold read sort of nerves that just let me just go with my, just go with my intuition, you know?4 (34m 53s):Yeah,1 (34m 54s):Right. No time to think and obsess and, and worry about it. Right. Do you get to, like, considering how much dialogue you have to memorize every single day for the next day's work, is there any room for improvisation or do you, are you supposed to say it word for word?4 (35m 9s):Supposed to say it word for word? I think there's a little bit of leeway. You know, the longer you've been on the show, they, they don't, you can't improv for sure. It's all written, but, you know, if you get a the instead of and or you know, those little things, the pace is so quick that they're not gonna redo the, and we usually get one to two takes. Right. We don't get multiple takes.2 (35m 30s):Oh my, my God.4 (35m 32s):It moves at an incredible speed. So when you said what you said about soap acting and soap actors, I really have a tremendous respect. I think a lot of people like to put judgment on high art and low art. And I, I don't really get the point of that, but, but they, people love it. People watch it, it gives them a sense of comfort. And the actors that I've met are so hardworking and so talented, like very good actors. They're just in the job that they're in. You know what I mean? And a lot of it's a lot of this soap acting is soap work has gotten better. So1 (36m 5s):Absolutely. I would go so far as to say that's probably a sexist thing that soap, soap operas have whatever reputation that they do because you know, anything that a lot of women like people tend to denigrate. Right. Okay. So did you always want to be an actor? Did you always want to go to theater school? What was your journey when you were picking colleges?4 (36m 33s):Wow. You know, I, being a Asian American woman, I didn't really see that it would be a possible career path for me. I was like a secret artist, you know, like inside I really wanted to be on the stage and I really wanted to act and all of that. But I didn't have examples really. I think growing up I had like for a short stint Margaret Show and, and Lucy Lou and you know, very few and then like Chinese actresses that I knew of. But it was a tough journey. So I secretly auditioned for LaGuardia music and art and performing arts in New York City. You know, the fame high school? Oh2 (37m 12s):Yeah. Oh yeah. I know that you went there and I'm wondering, like you seek, what does it mean to secretly audition where you didn't tell your folks and you were like, I'm out.4 (37m 20s):Didn't tell my folks. Yeah, I mean, how old are you when you start high school? I mean, I was probably, Oh yeah, what are we, 12? No, 13. 13.1 (37m 28s):13. I, No, 13. Really young, really4 (37m 30s):Young.1 (37m 31s):13. Do that on your own.4 (37m 32s):So I, you know, I grew up in New York City, so I took the subway up. I I applied to audition and, well first I was in the, the fine arts program, so, which they also didn't like. And I had an amazing art teacher in junior high school who mentored me to make, make a portfolio and all this kind of stuff. So I'd gone up and did the art test without telling my parents. And I, and I got into the art program. Wait a minute2 (37m 55s):Differently. You didn't get into the, you went for fine art. For, for and you, what do you mean the art test? What the hell is that? That sounds horrifying. What do you mean an art test?4 (38m 7s):So, well I didn't, I didn't audition yet for theater cause I think it was too scary at that moment for me. So first I did the art program because I was encouraged by a grown up teacher who was like, thought she saw talent in me, which was very amazing to have a teacher like that. And the art test was, you had to have a full portfolio, like at least 10 or 15 pieces in a portfolio. So you carry that big old thing. Like imagine a 12 year old kid carrying a portfolio uptown. I mean it's just, it's, it's crazy when I think about it. And then you get there and there's like a still life setup and there's all the, everybody sits around on desks and you have to draw, you have to draw the still life,2 (38m 48s):My god, all the pressure. And4 (38m 49s):Then they bring in, and then they bring in a model and then you have to draw the model2 (38m 55s):A. This is like my nightmare of like any kind of that where you're like, it's a test. Anxiety, high pressure, pressure, creativity, high pressure on the spot, creativity. I would've been passed out. I would've passed out.4 (39m 10s):I don't think so. I mean, look, we we're all, it's a good prep for like auditioning and callbacks and just we're al you're always under pressure. We're under pressure right now doing the podcast. But, but yeah, I mean I think growing up in New York you're constantly under pressure. So I, I maybe I was used to it for that reason. But2 (39m 30s):I do have to say Tina, Tina, there is something about you. Yes, ma'am. That is like super badass, tough, even just the way you present and your voice in the best possible way. So like, and I wonder if that is a mix of, you know, New Yorker, Asian American parents. My, my guess is I'm the par a daughter of an immigrant. Your daughter of an immigrants. Right. Of immigrants. Yeah. Okay. So there's like a toughness about you and like all I could, like you're a badassery. Do you think it is New York? What is it? Where does that come from? Because you should play, you, you should play an assassin and a like a, like an action hero in, in like huge films.2 (40m 13s):Why isn't that? We gotta make that happen today anyway,4 (40m 16s):So let's just call Kevin Fig and just let him know like, I'm available. Well, I, I think you touched on it. I think it's all those things that make up who I am. I, I, I am tough. I am tough but I like, I I, but I don't see myself necessarily that way. I'm like, you know, I think we've, I think I spent actually a lot of years trying to counteract that tough expectation by being like smiley and sweet and doing the things that I think women tend to do. Women identifying women tend to do, like by softening themselves and being smaller in the room. And I think over the years as you get older you hit 40 and you're like, fuck that.4 (40m 56s):Oh, am I allowed to curse on this? Okay. You just kinda like, absolutely, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm fucking over this. But I think it's all those things. I think definitely New York and always having your defenses up and always having an awareness around you and having parents that worked extremely hard and sacrificed a lot and knowing that I could sacrifice more. I think that's also part of like surviving as an artist. Like do I need to eat that fancy thing today? Do I need to have that new outfit? Like no, I, if I want to succeed then those are the things I need to let go of in order to invest in my career.4 (41m 36s):So yeah, I think a lot of it is identifying as an Asian American female, I think having immigrant parents for sure that work really hard. I think New York City and all of its dangerous that I survived. So I survived theater school and New York City and now I'm trying to survive LA1 (41m 56s):Yeah, yeah. Right, right. Lot of surviving happening. So at what point did you, well obviously you told your parents that you applied and that you got in for the fine arts program. Yeah. They obviously had to get on board with that at some point, cuz you're still doing it. But then tell us about the switch into acting.4 (42m 17s):So it was my first year as a, as the, you know, a drawing, painting, sculptor. And I just found it really lonesome. Like I, I I was like a little emo kid, you know what I mean? Like all this angst I had just had so much angst cause I grew, I had a rough childhood and I, I just found, found myself in a little bit of a depression as a freshman in high school, which is I guess not that rare, but I just kept looking at the theater department and seeing these kids getting to like fully express themselves and be around others like them. You know, painting is a solitary thing I think like writing, I don't know if you have that experience, the two of you. Cause I read that you're both writers and I write as well and it's a very different world you're in.4 (43m 3s):So I decided to just do it apply to the theater department and that process first it's like two monologues, right? Contemporary and a classic.2 (43m 14s):Do you remember what you did? Do you remember what you did? Oh, it's okay.4 (43m 18s):Oh boy.2 (43m 19s):I bet was great. Whatever it was.4 (43m 22s):The modern piece, I don't remember the name of it or, or where it was from, but it was, it was a girl witnessing her parents', her parents' divorce and, but going through her house and talking about how the home represented the family, you know, and, and like where things belonged in the house and how those things are gonna be moved and that means their family no longer existed, exists. So it was a really beautiful piece. I can't remember where it was from. And then the other one was Shakespeare and I'm sure I did a terrible job. It may have been1 (44m 2s):Saying4 (44m 2s):I don't remember the Shakespeare. Yeah, I don't remember the Shakespeare. That's funny.2 (44m 6s):Yeah. But I bet you know, you go, you know, you know4 (44m 10s):It was Porsche, the quality and mercy is not strange.2 (44m 14s):Oh yeah, that's1 (44m 15s):Exactly what I did. Terrible.2 (44m 20s):Wait a minute. So we have, wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute. I'm just picturing both you two for Gina. I'm wondering, I'm thinking it was to get into DePaul's theater school, right? Okay. And Tina, yours was even younger cuz you were, you were like 15, 14 playing Porsche. Yes. Oh that's fantastic. 14 year old Porsche's all around. Okay, so you must have, okay, so then what did you did, did it go on from there? Like you did your monologues? Oh,4 (44m 46s):So yeah, so then you do that and then there's a call back. So you go to another room with a different auditor and I'm trying to make sure I don't blend my high school audition to my college audition. But then we went from that callback to a screen test. So you to do a screen test and then wait,2 (45m 4s):Wait, A screen test for LaGuardia? Yeah. Like4 (45m 8s):At, at the time. At the time, Yeah. I remember that because I remember they said you have to go to good screen, so there's like a camera and you whatever on camera audition. And then from there, oh I, I remember there was five steps. I can't remember what the, I remember we may have had to go into the theater and do like a, like the theater exercises and movement stuff and then we had to do a interview one-on-one interview with the head of the department. So it was, you know, a lot of steps to,1 (45m 39s):This is so far tougher than it was for our, the audition. Like we had to do those other things you're describing. But we did not, I don't think we did a one-on-one interview.2 (45m 48s):No. Was1 (45m 49s):It nerve wracking?4 (45m 51s):Yeah, I mean as a kid I, I guess I didn't really like, I didn't, maybe didn't sink in that I was, that that's what was happening. But I just, you know, followed the line. I, whatever they told me where I needed to go, I just went and did it. So. Yeah. Yeah, I think it was a lot more steps than my college audition as well as well.2 (46m 9s):So, So you got in, did they just tell you I'm the spot Tina or were you, how did it work? And then were you, did you tell, did your parents know you were switching?4 (46m 20s):No, they didn't know. No, they didn't know. No, I think I, I think I just got a letter. I don't, I don't know if, I don't think they, I think they gave me the sense that it was a good fit, but I don't think I knew until later. Cause it's like thousands of kids in New York City, you know what I mean? Right, right. Yeah. Auditioning. So,2 (46m 39s):So1 (46m 40s):I'm curious about whether the, like what, what the pipeline situation was from LaGuardia to conservatories. Cuz a lot of kids who get training young or get working young don't go for theater school because they figure like, well I already know what I'm doing. So like what, what, how was it at LaGuardia? Did mostly kids go and pursue performing arts in college or what?4 (47m 5s):You know, I think a handful of us did. But honestly I, I think a lot of people didn't continue on. So it was kind of a weeding out process. You know, a lot of people went into who poli political science. A lot of people went into, you know, a lot of different things. I mean a lot of people I, I remember I went to high school with are doing amazing things currently. I mean, one of, one of the girls I was friends with, she's like a pundit on cnn, like, like one of the leading, she went into politics and then became like a on camera. So those two worlds sort of merged. But yeah, no, I, I think I ended up applying to four schools.4 (47m 45s):Four conservatories. So SUNY purchase Rutgers, I don't remember nyu. And what was,2 (47m 55s):I'm gonna just throw out Carnegie Mellon.4 (47m 57s):Carnegie Mellon. I think it was Carnegie. I, no, no, it was Boston University. I actually, it was interesting. I didn't, I didn't, I was so, I don't know. I just, I didn't do Julliard and I didn't do Carnegie Mellon. I don't know why. Oh, I know why Pittsburgh. I didn't wanna go to Pittsburgh. Sorry if, if either of you have a fondness for Pittsburgh, but I didn't wanna be there.2 (48m 23s):Never been. And also, I have a friend that went to the Carnegie Mellon program in NI started in 1993 and they weighed them at the, in their acting classes, they weighed them. So I'm glad we didn't go. I mean, you know, whatever. We missing, not missing out. Forget, forget Pittsburgh. Also the weighing, Fuck you. So, okay, so you, you auditioned, Did you do like the urda, like all of them at once, Tina? Or did you go, how did it work for your colleges? And then tell us how, how you made your choice.4 (48m 57s):So yeah, I think I did do them. You know, they, they set up the appointments to the different places. I remember that I really wanted to go to SUNY purchase. I do remember that because Israel Hicks was the head of the department then. And I remember thinking, oh he's an amazing teacher to study under. And it was such a small conservatory program. So I went up there that, that, by that point I did tell my parents I was gonna theater school and they were not happy about it. I mean, imagine they're immigrants, right? They came across the world not speaking the language, giving up everything, working very, very hard to make a better life for their children. And then their one child that didn't go to CO that is going to college wants to be an artist.4 (49m 38s):I mean that's like pretty brutal for them to absorb. But yeah, I, You were saying when you leave high school, like why, why go into the theater school? I, because I, both my brothers had not gone to college. My older brothers and my parents were, you know, had immigrated here. And like, I just, I felt like college was really important. I felt like getting an education was really important. And maybe, I remember thinking at the time, imagine being 17 and thinking I'm ruining my career. Cuz I thought it was gonna slow down my career because I did have one. We have an industry night at the end of high school and I got a manager, a New York City manager and I was freelancing with all these different agents and for like, the few months that I was not gonna leave New York.4 (50m 25s):And wait2 (50m 26s):A minute, wait a minute, wait. A I gotta go back here cuz I'm in awe. Gina, are you in awe? Cause I'm in awe that you, you had an industry night in high school and you got a manager from that. You're how old it did? 17.4 (50m 41s):17, Yeah.2 (50m 42s):You have a manager and you're freelancing. What did that feel like? I mean I'm like that. I'm like in awe. Were you like I am the shit? Are you like, this is just what I do. You're like a young, like a 17 year old professional actor. What in the hell?4 (50m 57s):I think, I think I was kind of like feeling like my dreams were coming true in a lot of ways, but I don't think I was secure in it. I definitely for sure was like, this could go away tomorrow. Am I doing the right things? You know, that manager at the time, she was lovely, but it, she did say to me like, you should move to Los Angeles. And at that point I just wanted to go to college and it, and most of the options were on the east coast that I wanted to, to, you know, except for Boston University. Well, Boston's east coast too. But she just said like, Well I just feel like if you move to the west to LA like later you're gonna be over the hill. I was 17, oh my god I was 17. God.4 (51m 36s):And2 (51m 37s):That's, that's such projection. It's such projection. It's all, I mean they mean even if they mean well, it's still projection. So you had this manager, but you were, and you were auditioning, I'm assuming in New York City. Yeah, Yeah. But then, but you really wanted to go to college and so4 (51m 55s):I really wanted to go2 (51m 56s):To college. Okay, so you wanted to go to suny. What happened there? Why, how did you end up at nyu?4 (52m 2s):Oh, so I got in to purchase, which was, which was a tough choice because SUNY purchases, like at the time was so cheap for in-state, like residents. And then, but I, I can't explain this to you at all, but I went, when I went and auditioned for nyu, I fell asleep at the audition. I remember in the waiting room. I just like, kind of not at often, I just think I just needed to be relaxed, you know? So cuz there was2 (52m 31s):All these like, what a power move.4 (52m 35s):I don't know if I was just like, you know, overwhelmed or, I don't think it was overwhelming, but I just felt like I just needed to relax. And there was like, you know, a bunch of young act New York City actors. And at the time NYU was a top conservatory. And I think I, there was like all these young actors that were like, like doing all the warmups, which I believe in a hundred percent. I do it before shows, but like, but it intimidated me in some way cuz I was like, well I didn't start acting until I was much older. I mean, I was young, but you know, in New York it felt like everybody's a kid actor that was enacting. So, I don't know, I, I fell asleep and then they woke me up and said, it's your turn.4 (53m 18s):I was like, Oh, okay. And I went in and I remember in all my auditions I did this weird thing, which, which I don't know if it's an an i, I took my shoes off in every audition. Like I, I felt like I needed to be grounded. Oh my2 (53m 31s):God. It's a power move. It's a power move. Listen to me, anyone, this is how I feel now watching youngsters. I mean, I don't hold auditions, but when, when someone has a specific bold take on, on how they're going to enter a room, they, they're yards ahead of everybody else. You made a bold move, Tina and I, I support it. I support it. You, it's like you, you had a take. Good for you.4 (54m 1s):I, I think I just needed to take care of myself. And I, I think at the time I didn't really have a lot of protection and people taking care of me in that way as a young artist. So I think I just had my own process, but part of that was being weird and saying, I need to take my shoes off and taking off my shoes. I've never told anyone that before. So Yeah, I did all my, It's1 (54m 23s):So related. This is some related to you being tough and a badass, because I think kind of what I'm hearing is however, the, I mean, I don't know necessarily the right way to say this, but you haven't waited for permission. Like you didn't wait for permission from your parents to audition for this school and you didn't, you know, ask them. Is it okay if I take you, You just did a lot, You've done a lot of things and maybe it's because you have felt like you've had to do it this vein on your own since you didn't have any family members who, who, who pursued this career. But I wanna know, Oh, sorry. You were actually, I interrupted you, you were in the middle of finishing your audition story.4 (55m 3s):No, I, I don't Where were we? I don't off.2 (55m 6s):Okay, so you That's ok. That's ok. We, I'm, I'm clocking. So you are there, you, you, you did all your auditions and you said you don't know how to explain it, but when you got into nyu, when you did your NYU audition?4 (55m 20s):Well, when I was waiting in the waiting room, when I fell asleep, that's where I was going. I just felt like I belong there. I just felt like I belonged there. I was just like, this is where I need to be. Even though purchase was my first choice and purchase at the time was very competitive. They took like 10 people in that year. And I, and it would've been cheap. Really ch that's one thing, NYU's not cheap, but I for sure, I just had this overwhelming sense that this is where I needed to be. And yeah, I, I did the audition for Beth Turner, who was amazing, amazing, I think she was a dean at the time, but auditor. And then she asked me what studio I wanted to be in and I told her Playwrights Horizons, or I think Adler is what I chose.4 (56m 11s):And she asked me why playwrights cuz she thought I should be placed in experi what was then called experimental theater wing, which is very physical. So I understand it now. She saw in me that I'm a very physical person and I told her, this is the hilarious part, I told her playwrights was my number one choice because you can study, directing, acting and design, which is what I ended up doing. And I said, I need a fallback plan, which is2 (56m 38s):Like4 (56m 39s):Directing and design, like great fallback. But2 (56m 43s):Here's, here's the thing, here's the thing, The other thing that I'm seeing is that you knew fallback plan or not, you wanted to study more than one thing. And most people go in there saying, Oh, I just wanna be a movie star so I have to go into Atlantic cuz David Mammo will cast me in. Like, you wanted a more broad sense of Yeah. You, you were like, we have several actors on the show like this where it's, they're like more renaissance people in terms of writing, acting, directing, and they're, and they're true. Like for me what it is, is a true artist instead of an actor. It's a, it's more of a collaborator and doing, making art in a collaborative setting.2 (57m 23s):And it happens to be for you right now, acting and maybe writing and maybe directing if you have or something. So I, I love that. And also my NYU audition, I went without having picked a, a studio. So they asked me where you wanna go? And I said, I have no idea. Well, they didn't let my ass in, nor should they have.4 (57m 45s):Oh, no, I, you know, I appreciate you saying that. I mean, I think when I say fallback plan, I don't really think that is what it is. Cause I didn't think, obviously, you know, it's all a risk that we're taking. It really is true that I was very, I'm very interested in all aspects of storytelling. And I did tell her that, She asked me why directing, and I said, I am, I am incredibly stimulated in a different way when thinking about directing and how a story can be told and how it's structured and, and all of that. And, and I said, but it's not necessarily my heart. My heart is acting, but my mind is very connected to directing when she asked me that question.4 (58m 29s):So yeah. So cool.1 (58m 31s):Yeah. So you mentioned earlier your manager and saying you're gonna be over the hill and so forth. So we spent a lot of time talking about the whack messages that we got, especially being, you know, nineties, mid nineties, late nineties about like what you can and can't do and who you are and who you aren't and how you come across. And, and sometimes those opinions are wildly off base and sometimes there's smack Right on. What, what about you? Where did you fall on that with terms of like the, the feedback people was were giving you?4 (59m 3s):You know, it's, I think I'm still dealing with that today. I mean, I I, the feedback was people couldn't tell if I was a leading lady or if I was a character actor. And I will say they probably thought I was a character actor just because I was a woman of color. You know what I mean? Like, you're gonna be the best friend,2 (59m 27s):Right? It's because they couldn't see beyond their own biases and the biases of the industry. And look, I think some of that is a product of the environment those people are in, but also nobody challenged. And that's what I'm ask. I feel like people are at least starting to do now challenged why someone couldn't do something. So Yeah, sure. So they told you, Oh, we think you're gonna be like, you know, Sandra Bullock's best friend or like, whatever, what the sidekick, because probably because you, you were an Asian American woman, you know? Yeah.4 (1h 0m 2s):Nice. Or you're the nerd or you know, put on some glasses and now you're like, network nerdy, you know? So it's, it's, it's, How did you ask me? How did I deal with it? Is that the question?1 (1h 0m 15s):I'm just curious. Like, people usually have an anecdote or two about like, you know, I just told it on the podcast last week that, you know, I went to this thing when I was in high school, like how to get in the business. And the only thing I remember the guy saying is, thin is in, and you're either gonna get thin or you're not gonna be in, Like, it was just very binary. And by the way, that was true. Like he wasn't, he wasn't saying anything that wasn't true, but it doesn't matter because I internalized that message and then I never wanted to be in film. Then I was like, I'll, okay, that means I can never be in film and tv. Yeah. And I never even thought twice about it until like two weeks ago. That's when I remembered that.4 (1h 0m 55s):That's so heartbreaking. That's so heartbreaking. Yeah. I mean, my parents even honestly said, you can't be an actor. You're, you're Asian, you know, there's nobody like you. There's no, there's not many women like you, you're not gonna be successful. You're gonna be hungry all the time. You're never gonna, you know, and you know, they weren't totally wrong. They weren't trying to hurt me. They, you know, they, I think they were trying to protect me, but ultimately it hurt me. Do you know what I mean? It hurt my confidence, it hurt, you know? So a lot of my defense mechanism is to have confidence, if that makes any sense.2 (1h 1m 28s):Well that's, that's what I'm getting is that in response to the binary, you were able to go, Well, no, I'm gonna actually take care of my own self and take my own shoes off if I want to. Actually, I'm still gonna move forward and be like, I just love the idea of a woman of color being on a soap opera as one of the, like a recurring main characters. Because soap operas to me, in terms of casting, have not in the past been known to really embrace all kinds of things. But here you are on like Americana, which is soaps to me. And I mean, you have telenovelas and whatever, but the, but American soap operas are a thing and you're on one.2 (1h 2m 10s):So I know the word trailblazer is so overused, but I feel like you're a trailblazer. And what people fail to remember about trailblazers is, is that it's dirty, sweaty, hard work because you're literally in the dirt forging a path for yourself and perhaps those that come after you. Do you feel like that when you're working, that you're, and it's not fair to put it on people like women of color or women or othered people, but do you feel like in some way you're blazing a trail for other folks? Or do you just are just like, No, I just, I wanna work fuck the rest.4 (1h 2m 46s):No, I'm, I appreciate that question. I, I feel hopeful that that's what's happening. Do I think about it consciously when I'm working? Not necessarily, but I do intend to, if I can give other people opportunities, like if I don't suit a role, if they're like, Well this person's Vietnamese, will you audition? I pass. And I usually, you know, I've played other Asian races before because there are limited amount of roles. But I also believe like you have to get to a certain level and have a certain level of accomplishments in order to open the door for other people. So I will, I have, like I said, I'm passing on this, but this is this actress that you should look at. And I've sent names and you know, things, little things like that within my power.4 (1h 3m 30s):And I'm not trying to say like I'm a trailblazer or anything like that. I'm just trying to do the work, like you said, and take the opportunities when I can and try to do my best at it. And then hopefully set as some kind of example. I don't know what, but it is a lot.2 (1h 3m 45s):And I think that like trailblazing is, is is done primarily because there is something doesn't exist, which we want to see existing. And so then we have to do it on our own. Like, I agree that like I never woke up and thought, Oh, one day I'm gonna be like, do doing all this work. I just thought, no, like why doesn't this exist? Why can't plus size or Latinas do this? And then I went ahead and tried to make that space. But yeah, I feel like most trailblazers I know and iconic class or whatever don't like have that intention, right?2 (1h 4m 25s):We're not like, Oh, I'm gonna change. It's more like, No, this shit is wrong. It should exist and I'm gonna participate in change, right? Like a change maker.4 (1h 4m 34s):I'm gonna take, I'm gonna take space basically and not be apologetic for it. And, and that's a very hard thing to, to come to, you know, It's like, it's still, I wanna apologize all the time, you know what I mean? But that's my instinct. But because I wanna be a fair person. But I think ultimately it's like, no, I, I should claim the space and not be apologetic for it. I mean, I had a teacher in theater school and you're saying, What did people put on you who said to me, Tina, he said something very complimentary about a project I had just finished and something like, you know, good marks or something and said like, you're, you're very talented or whatever. And then he said, What I love about you is that you shatter stereotypes and on the, the face of it, you would think that's a positive thing, but I think it put a heavy weight on me.4 (1h 5m 24s):I think I felt this sort of, that's not what I'm, you're you're putting, that means you're putting so much on me when you even look at me, there's a, there's an expectation of you have to be excellent all the time. You have to be so good all the time. And if you not, if you're not excellent, people are gonna go, Oh, Asian women can't act, or Asian women shouldn't be doing this. And so there was a pressure, like I felt, wow. Like I guess he was trying to say something nice, but ultimately it just put this sort of,2 (1h 5m 51s):No, it puts more work. It's more work,4 (1h 5m 54s):More work. And it also puts like, you see me as a certain lens. You can't just see my work. You're seeing something else. Yeah. You know what I mean

When Conventional Medicine Was No Help, This Mother Jumped Into Action Featuring Amy White Is your body working with you or against you? It's not hard to tell. How do you feel? We need to listen to what our bodies are trying to tell us. When we don't listen, sometimes the only option is to have a major malfunction of some type. We also should be comfortable in our own skin. Its never too late to make needed changes in your diet, sleeping, exercise About Amy Amy White is a board-certified holistic nutritionist and functional nutrition and lifestyle practitioner. She has been working as a nutritionist, health & weight loss coach for over 12 years. Throughout this time Amy has come to understand that most health and body weight frustration is often a simple body communication problem. Once proper communication with the body is restored excellent health and a happy body weight become the natural result of living and enjoying everyday life. My work is more than food. It's really about lifestyle choices and learning how to eat for the health and body you want. I believe it's important to really understand inputs beyond food that impact overall wellness. Things like, sleep, fasting, protein, movement/exercise, self-talk and for a lot of my client base (over 50) embracing age as number and taking responsibility for the quality of your life. www.thesimplicityofwellness.com www.feedingfatty.com Full Transcript Below When Conventional Medicine Was No Help, This Mother Jumped Into Action Featuring Amy White Fri, 7/23 3:08PM • 31:44 SUMMARY KEYWORDS body, eat, people, thought, food, health, happening, sugars, feel, gut, doctor, inflamed, functional medicine, processed, headache, point, bad, guess, learned, late 30s SPEAKERS Amy, Terry, Roy Barker   Roy Barker  00:00 Hello, and welcome to another episode of Feeding Fatty.   Terry  00:06 I'm your host, Roy and Terry.   Roy Barker  00:07 So we are the podcast chronicling our journey through wellness. It can include you know, what, what we intake as far as food, our exercise our movement, you know, I've, there's a lot of difference between moving and exercising. And so movement is a good point to talk about with that, but also our mindset, we a lot of times we know what we need to do, it's just doing it and it's being sustainable. So those are the things that we'd like to talk about. And we also have, you know, professionals in the field on. And so we're lucky we have Amy White with us today, Terry, I'll let you introduce Amy.   Terry  00:35 Yeah, Amy White is a Board Certified Holistic Nutritionist and Functional Nutrition and lifestyle practitioner. She's been working as a nutritionist, health, health and weight loss coach for over 12 years. Throughout this time, she's come to understand that most health and body weight frustration is often a simple body communication problem. Once proper communication with the body is restored. excellent health and happy body weight becomes the natural result of living and enjoying everyday life. Amy, welcome to the show, I want to talk about this communication with your body. Yeah, and how did you find yourself in this realm of nutrition and coaching and all of that?   Amy  01:13 Well, I'm so I'm currently in my mid 50s. And I entered this area in my late 30s, really early 40s. And it was, you know, just like most people's stories, it was a family health issue, not mine, but my daughter's. And so I got into nutrition actually, because of gut health. So she had some gut gut issues. And we were we were unfortunately found ourselves in a position where the conventional medical community didn't seem to be able to help. And so then it was just kind of like, I'm one of those people that you know, once I tug on a thread, if I can't find the answer, I just have to keep digging. And she was she was getting ready to go to college, and she had digestive issues her entire life. And at this point, right, she's now like 16. And I'm thinking we should probably fix this. I'm such a good mom, let's wait 16 years to dig into this. So we did and we actually went and had a gastro enthrall just do a whole scope and see what was going on in there. And she basically said, Oh, she's fine. And I just kind of like he is because she's really not, you know, we go out to dinner at a restaurant and she ends up leaving the table and going outside and sitting on the curb. Because she feels so bad. And she's got this pressure and whatever. Wow. So the doc was like, Yeah, no, no, she's fine. She doesn't even have reflux or esophagus is beautiful. And we've been told she had reflux, and she was one month old. So that was actually nice to know. And but as the doctor was leaving the recovery room, she turned around and she said, Oh, I mean, her small intestine is red and inflamed. But that's really nothing to worry about. And then she left. And I thought, that seems like something to worry about. But I had new zero at this point. And I was completely we were living in Chicago at the time. And I was complaining some our girlfriends, I'm like, I don't know, and I'm sure we've all been there. But this was the first time in my life was in this position where I sought the expert looked for the answer and didn't get an answer. And then I had no idea who to ask where to turn. It was just it was very scary and frustrating. And so many people stop at that after they hear their so called expert. I mean, not that they're, you know, medical experts and all that they just stop. Yeah, but you were a woman on a mission. I'm sorry. Well, I literally thought I was stopped. I was just like, Oh, I guess I don't know. But I was very uncomfortable with that. It just felt bad. And so I was complaining. And one of my girlfriends said, Oh, you need to go see this nutritionist. And I literally was like, I don't even know what that is. But I'm in. And so that's where I got introduced to this idea of nutritionists. And I was like, hold on. And so she made one tiny dietary change. She I mean, we saw her once she said do this, which was all she told my daughter to do was stop eating gluten. I mean, you know, and back then it was like, Oh, the gluten thing. And so we did so we left the office and we went to Whole Foods and bought everything that said gluten free, which again, I don't recommend, but at the time, that's all we knew. And but you know what, even just doing that two weeks, my daughter, everything changed. It was a little freaky. And I thought Hold on a second. This is like magical. And so I started reading everything I could find about food and the body and I find We looked at my husband, my daughter ended up leaving for college and I looked at my husband and I said, I am out of things to read, I've run out. So I said, I'm going to take, I guess I'm going to start a program because they will have a reading list. So I inevitably ended up joining or getting into a new master's program for nutrition. And I had looked at, we were in again in Chicago, so I looked at the local universities and what they offered, and I was reading the syllabus, and I thought, you know, this is kind of exactly what I don't believe anymore. So it was more conventional. And I thought I don't, there's got to be something else. Because this is this. This is what I've learned from that nutritionist and what I've learned in my reading, and then I stumbled on holistic nutrition. And that's when I was like, Oh, this is it. This is what I've been looking for. And so that is the program, I got my master's in and then became board certified in that. And then went on to get certified as a functional nutritionist. So using functional medicine frameworks and things like that with patients and clients. Yeah. So it's Yeah, so that's, anyway, that's what happened or how it got started. Yeah, it's interesting. Anytime somebody says red inflamed, and that's in the conversation, I mean, it's just kind of mind boggling. At the very least, if it wasn't a big deal, you would think that that would have been part of the larger conversation, like we see this, it's okay. But, you know, anyway, it's, we I guess that's the other good lesson from that is, you know, we have to actually invest in ourselves. And even if we hear something from, you know, somebody that's educated, we're all human, we all make mistakes. So, investing that time in our own health is, as youth proven very well worth it. And they may not know, I mean, you know, they may not know if it's a traditional type ration, they may not know, to, to tell you to go somewhere else to get more information. I mean, why is it red? Why is it plain. And I, I've since learned, you know, that she was really on the road to sort of celiac. So what was happening was those micro villi in her small intestine, were just getting rubbed down and beaten down. And if we hadn't intervened, it's very likely that she could be much sicker now or that she wouldn't be. And so we were lucky to be able to get in there and kind of hope that when we did, and but you just intuitively, I think you kind of know if something feels right or wrong, like if someone says something, and just intuitively you can kind of go, Yeah, I don't think I don't. Yeah, that doesn't feel right. So saying retina inflamed, like you said, isn't an issue didn't feel right. You know, it's just like, that   Terry  05:51 sounds weird. And   Roy Barker  05:51 that's not that doesn't usually come after the Oh, by the way. Yeah, it was a very surreal experience. Well, we're glad she is back. To be unhealthy. And you know, what, that's one thing. That's, that's why we love this show is because, you know, we, I think we started it just because of the accountability and actually to just let other people know that you're not alone. And when you're, you know, whatever you're going through, somebody else is going through it, maybe there's some helping community. But it's been amazing the stuff that we have learned. You know, and I think this is another big area that we've kind of learned, we've learned enough about just to know what it matters is that gut health that so many things, start in our guts, you know, our brain health, a lot of the, you know, I guess, the release of chemicals, and endorphins and things like that, but it's a very important part of our wellness, but traditionally, you just don't hear much about it.   Terry  06:42 Well, your your our immune system is housed down there in our gut. So really overall health, it is going to have to start in the gut. And so many people don't consider gut health because they don't have gas and bloating, or constipation or diarrhea. They maybe they have anxiety or depression, excessive levels of stress, migraine headaches, but they don't associate that with their food. And so it's really interesting to help people understand there's it's it's quite a wide range of things that you can feel if your gut is out of balance.   Amy  07:08 And you could kind of if you don't mind, you can kind of educate us a little bit because, you know, we have got a couple of functional providers that we have talked to before. And so I guess what kind of tell us the the difference in the holistic and the functional and traditional because I feel like the functional makes an effort to get to the root of it. Not like oh man, I've got a bad headache. Okay, here's an aspirin. But more of the question of what is the underlying issue causing this headache For sure, so root cause protocols is what they call in functional medicine. So you're kind of looking at the symptom. So the thing that somebody is complaining about, and then you're like, Okay, well, you can take an acid, and that will stop the immediate pain. But why are you having the pain? So that's what functional medicine is doing. It's, it's a very curious place to be, you know, you're just very fascinated and curious with what's happening. And ideally, you want the patient or client to become as fascinated by their own body, you know, so they start to ask those questions. So what's causing that? So that would be the functional aspect, right? We want to get to the root cause and stop, stop the symptom from happening. The holistic part as with functional medicine, and this is only my interpretation, but its whole body health. And so with holistic, everything is so synergistic. So again, it's not just food, it's food, it's sleep. It's body movement, it's detoxification, so much everything that's going on in the body, and it's all synergistic. And so that's kind of the holistic approach is how do we make everything kind of work together? And so that, to me, that traditional conventional approach has sort of, in my mind shifted to more of that. band aids, right? So we take this pill, and then we take this pill, counteract the effects of that pill, and it's just sort of masking the root problem. So yeah, so that's kind of were kind of how I think about it. We had a guy on, we haven't aired the episode yet, but we had Dr. Robert Yoho, on that, talk to us the other day about the the amount of revenue that doctors make off of prescriptions, and it's unbelievable, really, I guess, I never, I knew that they probably had some incentives, but I didn't realize that, you know, some of them could be as much as it was. So it was almost a disincentive. I'd rather keep giving you the aspirin for a headache, because I'm making a little money off that. If I were to actually cure you, then, you know, where's my income stream. And I know, not all, all traditional doctors are that way. But definitely, it's a conflict. It's scary. If you let your head go there, because you can spiral and just be like, Wait a second, you know, and it's so it is a little scary. I remember, way back when I had first started in my holistic nutrition program, and I was talking to a friend of mine, and one of her kids, her little kids was having some gut issues and some problems. And so we were chatting about this, that, you know, I don't know what they were eating. And I something they were just eating traditional American foods, so cereal, and, you know, granola bars and whatever. And I said, I, you know, I, I think you might want to adjust what they're having, or somehow we got onto food. And she said, Listen, there's no way that there's food in the grocery store that is going to be harmful and dangerous to us, because there's no way the government would allow that to happen. And I just remember just sort of, like, almost just I was speechless, because I thought, Oh, my gosh, people actually believe that. And I but they don't really care about our health. That's not what's going on, you know, in the store, when with most foods there is our health isn't the focus, it's money. There. It's a business and, and so I thought that was so eye opening. This is a this is a woman who's incredibly edgy, she's well educated, she's a lawyer, she you know, and I thought, wow, I just so that was sort of eye opening, and it kind of helped me understand. Maybe we're most people's perspective is   Roy Barker  10:17 Right, right.   Amy  10:18 That's so true. Oh my gosh, so many people do think about that, and many things, but especially with the food aspect of why our government would allow people to poison us. Yeah. Yeah, and even like with the things that do come up with, you know, meat or whatever, it's just that there's not enough people also to to monitor every action of every manufacturer. And so sometimes, even if it perceived to be okay, you know, things can go wrong in the process to make it really not bad. And fortunately, until people start coming in to a doctor and report it, we just don't know about that. Right? So I'm a big advocate for people really taking the time to notice how they feel, right? If something's going to make someone else feel great, whereas it's going to make someone else feel terrible. So you just have to really start to we say you need to sort of, you know, put your detectives cap on and just really like, does this make me feel better? Does this make me feel worse? Yeah. You know, it may be totally different for my husband and my kids, but each one of you are going to have a different reaction. But you have to take the time to if you care, and maybe you aren't feeling as good as you think you can feel then you need to take that time to just say, Hmm, yeah, this works for me, and this doesn't, and it's maybe journal it. Yeah. And I definitely have had clients who have said no It never occurred to me to think about how the food I eat made me feel. And then once they did, they were shocked to realize, Oh, I have choices here, I actually don't have to eat these things if they make me feel terrible. And that's when sort of things start to change.   Roy Barker  11:35 I guess that's part of the communication that we were taught. I think Terry was asking about that, in your intro, you know, the communication, the simple body communication is a problem.   Terry  11:46 Yeah, what is that,   Amy  11:47 so, so remember, food, is just information. And it's how we communicate with the body. So when we, we tell them, we want something from our body, we want to, you know, have excellent health, great energy, we want to sleep well, we want to fit into our, you know, ideal size of clothing, you know, whatever it is, we need to use food to tell the body specifically what it is that we really need from it. And so I think of the body as this, you know, kind of obedient three year old, that takes everything very literally. So you have to be very careful about what you're saying, because it's going to do what you tell it to do. And so when I was back in my late 30s, and I was putting on weight, and I was uncomfortable, and I was achy. And I was always in a bad mood. And just it was that it was it was horrible. I thought I was telling my body, I really want to sleep while I want great energy, I really want to, you know, drop some weight and feel good again, but really, by what I was eating, I was telling my body, we're going to sit very quietly, we're not going to have any energy, so we're going to definitely want to not move. And then we're going to want to pack on a lot of extra fat. And hold on to that, you know, so that was what I was telling my body based again, based on the what I was eating, which was a lot of processed manufactured carbohydrates. And because I was trying to not eat too much me and I was trying to avoid fats and you know, so I was, you know, eating things that said fat free and low calorie and, but they weren't, they weren't telling my body the right message. Because they, because they were so processed and manufactured and everything came in a little, you know, single serve baggie, or this that or in this little, you know, you know, throw it in the microwave dinner, you know, perfect size. It wasn't it really matters what you choose to eat. And so, this is getting a little confusing, but there's another term that I learned along the way, and it was called metabolic debt. And I love this. So again, I was approaching 40, I had pretty much spent the 20 years prior eating, doing whatever I wanted. And for the most part, my body compensated, and I was okay. But then all of a sudden, in my mid 30s, my body sort of stopped holding it together for me, which is I basically my metabolic debt from all of the previous years had kind of caught up with me and my body was like, I can't, I can't mask this anymore. I can't do it. This is really what's going on. And so I was metabolically very out of balance. My blood sugar's were really high, it was complete sugar addict. I'm sure my insulin was high. I didn't know at that time that you could even test insulin. I didn't know what it was. But based on what was going on with my body, those were the signs that's where I was headed, wasn't sleeping, well, it no energy. Man, I was such a cranky monster too, is I wasn't fun to be around. And so anyway, at once we went through this whole thing with my daughter and I learned about food as magic. I also learned Oh, hold on a second, I need to eat in a different way to tell my body a different story. And so once I started shifting what I was eating, and I got off the process carbohydrates and a cut way down on the on the sugars, and I use, you know, carbohydrate as an umbrella term for sugars. So less grains, less, you know, all of that stuff. And then my body started responding completely differently. And that's when all of a sudden might come body composition started to change again, and I started getting you know, heading. So now at 54 I am in way better shape than I was at 37 not just shape, but my health is better, my energy is better, I sleep better. All of those metrics are so, so much better. If this is who I had been when I was 37 I would have been so happy. So you're myself and everything you're saying I mean because in your 30 you know you're maybe you're raising your kids doing what you can for your family, you just kind of whatever you can get to eat quick and easy for you and your kids. So everybody's eating all the processed everything going through the drive thru is all of that and then You have all these aches and pains and headaches and oh my gosh, and I put on tons of weight to Yeah. And it's amazing. If you eat the eat the right foods for your body. What can happen is just a whole transformation. And I saw this funny Instagram or tweet yesterday or today and it said, Listen, if you hold off on dinner long enough, everyone will eat cereal. So follow me for more healthy food tips. And I cracked up because I was like, right, that's what you do. Because everyone's so busy. And I thought, ah, and then eat cereal, and it's horrible. But it was so funny, because I'm like, that's so true. So I tend to. So when I was 37, I felt terrible. And it felt like it that was it for me, like the best years were behind me. Because everybody had always said, Oh, you're on a sporty Oh, it just gets worse when she hits 40. And I thought, again, not something I liked. I didn't like it when people said that to me. And so I got a little bit, you know, competitive. I was like, that's not gonna happen, you know that. That's not okay. But yet, then I saw it happening. And I was like, no. And, and so since in the years that I've been doing this, especially with the doctor referred patients that I see, I have had women in their late 30s say to me, I know my best years are behind me, I just don't want it to get worse. I mean, it's okay, but how can I sort of, not gain more weight not have less energy, and I just, if I have to stay here, I'm here, I just don't want it to get worse. And I thought, Oh, it just broke my heart. Because I thought no, if they're not behind you, you have so much ahead of you, but they just kind of had in their own mind given up because they didn't realize that they can completely change how they look how they feel. So that's sort of my mission at this point is to is to impact these women who have spent their life nurturing everyone else. But now they're at this point where their kids are grown up, they're moving out, they have more free time. And you know, they've, they've probably got some money that they can spend on themselves. It's just a point in life, that's actually should be really fun. Because, you know, we're kind of having this second childhood, but we're, you know, we have more wisdom, we have more money, we have more time. And we don't care so much about what everyone else thinks. So it's time to really kind of take charge and kind of embrace that, and be the best version of you. So I just, I don't want to hear another woman or man for that matter. Say, yeah, I just I know, my best years are behind me. And I, you know, I just hope I, you know, I don't know, you know, I don't know what they expect. But,   Roy Barker  22:45 ya know, because this is the best time. You know, it's a, it's a great time in life. But you need to feel good to enjoy that. And to understand that and say, I have my days, you know, still trying to sort all this eating out. But definitely, you know, there are some things that, like you said, talking to you're listening to what your body's telling you. And it's the things I love the most probably but you know, like the chips at the Mexican restaurant and the Margarita. And I don't know what's changed about that. It's my body, but it's like, they put a lot of this heavy syrup in it to vibrate and sweeten it. And that stuff. It just almost makes me ill. I mean, like to the point that it's that next morning when I get up we've talked about this before is that now for maybe two or three hours, it is like my head from my eyes is just full of congestion. It takes me a long time just to get out from under that. And anyway, so you know, like that stuff. I just have to stay away from it. Now there's no   Amy  23:48 Well, it sounds like you've shifted your diet in such a way that you really decrease those extraneous sugars. And so you're much more sensitive to the sugar. Because what I've discovered it's not the tequila. It's actually this like you said, it's the syrup. Yeah, and your body's now having this huge hit from the sugar and it's going Wait a second. We don't do this anymore. And now you're actually wreck I said this to somebody recently, too. I said, How cool is that? that your body is letting you recognize how inflammatory those sugars are. Oh, look what it's doing. Yeah,   Terry  24:21 that's a great that's a great way to say it. Ah, I mean, it's sometimes I was watching a show a morning show couple days ago and this gal was on there she's she's a health health coach. I'm not sure exactly which specific area but but she was in the gym.     When Conventional Medicine Was No Help, This Mother Jumped Into Action Featuring Amy White Tue, 8/31 6:12PM • 41:04 SUMMARY KEYWORDS eat, protein, diabetic, food, salt, sugar, clients, insulin, vegetables, manage, long, grams, blood pressure medicines, keto, week, person, feel, squash, high blood pressure, day SPEAKERS Amy, Terry, Roy Barker   Roy Barker  00:03 Hello, welcome back to the Feeding Fatty show. I just wanted to wanted to make just a little announcement that we lost power in the initial interview with Amy White. And she has agreed to come back on we're gonna finish the talk. So that's where we're picking up if it seems like it's a kind of a weird segment into this, just wanted to let everybody know exactly why so   Terry  00:27 little choppy?   Roy Barker  00:28 Yeah, yeah. Amy, thanks for taking time to come back. That was awkward.  Oh, yeah. No my pleasure, I just like when the you know, just the power went out. And it was down for about three hours. That night naturally went out a second time. But anyway, we're all good now. So welcome back. Thanks for taking time out of your day. And so I thank you and Terry had a little conversation there going, and we wanted to be sure and capture talking about, I guess, we want to go with the type two diabetic and high blood pressure.   Amy  01:00 Yes. So that is a you see that combination, often that that high blood pressure tends to go along with high insulin, so pre diabetes, type two diabetes, so that whole sort of metabolic imbalance. And I was saying that I have, typically when I work with pre diabetics, so people will come to me because their doctor wants them to go on medication for their pre diabetes, and they're like, I don't want to go on medication. I would rather fix this. And the doctor usually says, Okay, well, let's come back in three months. And which works perfectly, because that's what I like, is 12 weeks. And so they'll come see me and they're like, Can we do this so that I don't have to go on medication. And I'm like, absolutely. So in a matter of 12 weeks, we will basically adjust their diet to manage those metabolic hormones that are high insulin, blood sugar. And and typically in 12 weeks, we see their their labs completely shift to healthy non diabetic labs. So they no longer are showing us pre diabetic so that the doctor is like well, we there's no conversation to have because you're not pre diabetic. Now I've had the opportunity to work with there's a doctor that refers patients to me. And so I have had the opportunity to work with a diagnosed type two diabetic. And, and he was on three blood pressure medicines. And he wanted to manage this. And so he started working with me and again, we did a 12 week window. And as it as a diagnosed type two diabetic, I mean, his labs for really bad, let's say, it's hard to quantify without my numbers in front of me, but not good. And but in 12 weeks, he shifted all of his lab markers to non diabetic lab markers, and better I mean, not even pre diabetic he was again, in all healthy optimal ranges. And, and he felt great, but I was saying one of the things was that he didn't lose a tremendous amount of weight, I think he lost 20 or 25 pounds, which I guess in 12 weeks actually is a lot of weight. But he hadn't probably he would probably have liked to lose another 20 pounds, maybe. But ultimately, he came off all of he was on three blood pressure medicines, and he came off all of that. And but one of the things that's so important, if you're listening to this, if you are on high blood pressure medicine, and you're shifting your diet, you have to have a cough at home, because it happens very quickly, you can start coming off those medications, like within a week. So you have to have a cuff at home. If you're starting to notice that you bent over and you stood up and got dizzy, check your blood pressure might be too low. So you need to make sure you can get through to your doctor and let them know what you're doing so they can adjust your medication. Because Yeah, you don't want to you don't want to be passing out because your blood pressure is now too low.   Roy Barker  03:59 Right? Right. So what were some of the fundamental shifts that y'all made? Yes.   Amy  04:04 Well, you know, for for this particular person, because I knew they were type two diabetic we went in and really attack the sugars in the diet. So where are the sugars coming from? What is it that's keeping his insulin high? Why is his blood sugar so high, so we did have to go in and get real serious about cutting out sugars, and really at that point, anything that converts quickly to sugar. So, you know, starchy vegetables are not bad foods, fruits, not bad foods, and these are all good foods. But if you are already suffering with high insulin and high blood sugar, these foods are not helping. They're just gonna keep your blood sugar high. Once you're healthy and your blood sugar is at a normal level, you can start to reintroduce these foods and see how well you tolerate certain things or you know how much of something you can have before Sort of impacting negatively. And often, depending on how long you've been sick, how long you've been tied to diabetic can reflect how much you're going to be able to reintroduce. So it's been a long time, you often are going to be very carb sensitive, and you may not be able to reintroduce as much as maybe you'd like to.   Roy Barker  05:22 And I know you, we kind of caught you off guard with this topic. So you may not have this right top of mind. But was this was this person a, I don't know how to describe it more like a junk food or candy bar, ice cream eater, or did they have a pretty good diet, it was just the the underlying things that we don't think about, like the fruits and the starchy vegetables that was causing the problem,   Amy  05:51 and a lot of alcohol. So a lot of fruits, this person has tons of fruit trees in their yard. And so they would, you know, do a lot of canning and making fun drinks and with the fruit and baking. And this person was it's also it was also a man, so he also was traveling, so he spent more time out away from home than he was at home. So that's kind of a high stress environment. So he was always traveling. So there was a lot of conferences where he was just eating what was available, going out with clients. So a lot, not necessarily junk food, but maybe more restaurant foods, unhealthy fats, things that you can't control when you're in that kind of an environment. But I think I think a lot of it was, um, there was a lot of alcohol, a lot of fruit. But yeah, there was there was treats and stuff in there. And I know, it was funny, because one of the shifts that this particular person made was over to a lot of cheese. So they sort of took out a lot of the goodies and and ate cheese instead, which can backfire. But at the beginning when you're trying to come off the sugar, it really worked for this particular person. Now in the long run, if you have weight to lose, or want to lose weight, the cheese definitely will, will slow you down or totally can backfire at some point. Same with nuts. So that's usually that's tier two, where we start looking at that kind of stuff. That's the first things first is to break the sugar cravings. So yeah, stop kind of needing the sugars.   Roy Barker  07:34 Well, that's one thing that we kind of figured we were way over doing is cheese. I mean, yeah, it was like there was nothing that   Terry  07:43 dairy in general   Roy Barker  07:44 is just like there was nothing that cheese wouldn't cure, or whatever. But also, for the high blood pressure side, I think a lot of cheeses tend to be high salt. Is that correct?   Amy  07:59 Well, um, yeah, I think there can be salt. But that's one of those interesting things where everybody kind of with high blood pressure, Biggie gets real worried about the sodium. And but you know what, we need salt. So there's been a lot of, I've been reading a lot about salt and how important it is in the body and how it's actually a misnomer to think that with high blood pressure, though, you need to eat less salt. Because there's this, you know, I'm not a salt expert, but it's I definitely push salt on my clients. One of the things if we're stopping the processed foods, then all of a sudden, you aren't eating as much sodium as you think you are. And when your insulin starts to come down, I like to sort of I describe it to my clients, I'm like, when our insulin is high, our kidneys are kind of like clench, they're just like, you know, kind of angry, and then as her insulin comes down, we tend to flush, all of a sudden our kidneys relax, and they start functioning the way they're supposed to function. And we refresh all this fluid. So one of the things you notice when your insulin starts coming down is you have to pee a lot. That's a good sign. But we're flushing all these minerals. And so I'm sure you've heard of the low carb or the keto flu. And this is usually a now they're starting to recognize this as attributed to this mineral imbalance or this electrolyte imbalance. So we're releasing all this sodium and only you only have to have one of the electrolytes out of balance at one of the electrolytes to be low, and that throws them all out of balance. So the one that we tend to pee out is sodium. So you actually need to make sure you're getting enough salt. So I definitely recommend as people are coming off the sugar, lots of pickles, olives, and definitely if you have an electrolyte mix that you like, you know start including that are just adding salt to your water. And you can tell when you need salt because you crave it and it needs No often people are like, Oh, I don't I don't need salt. I don't use salt. I don't salt my food, but theirs are addicted to potato chips. And yeah, so your body wants your salt in this very narrow places balance. And so if you are craving salt you need salt in once you have enough things will start to taste too salty. Yeah. So if you were drinking on the electrolyte drink and you love it, and then one day, you're just like, this is like seawater, you're fine. You don't need any more salt.   Roy Barker  10:30 And that's funny say that because Pringles, you know, that's not a chip of choice. But whenever I start craving Pringles, it's just almost like, you could just lick the salt. Yeah.   Terry  10:42 Absolutely, I try to get the lights.   Amy  10:46 I guess not as good.   Roy Barker  10:49 So in the beginning of this, the, for some of us that have troubles, it would just be probably more like the inline with the keto, just more protein. But the veggies you have to be very selective. And, you know, that's one place where we kind of stumble a little bit because, you know, we, you know, not all vegetables are created equal. And so I guess what are the recommended? Or how do we know, which are the ones that will convert to saw a convert to the sugar?   Amy  11:23 more rapidly? Yeah. So So I love that you said so with this. So if you're in this type two or pre diabetic place, you're sort of leaning more than that keto. So I do think of and I may have said this earlier in the previous conversation, but I do think of sort of dietary principles on this spectrum. And this helps me because when I meet with a client, and we look at where they are, where their health is, and where what their health goals are, you know, health body, it can help me to, you know, determine probably where they're where they should start on that spectrum. So if somebody is coming to me, and they're pre diabetic, or type two diabetic, I am definitely going to start them over here with the keto low carb, because we just have to manage the sugar out of the gate. And so yes, so typically, my recommendation is non starchy vegetables, right? Easy to say, you sit there and go great. What does that mean? So think of crunchy vegetables, think of things you would put in a salad, things that grow above ground, except corn, corns, a starch. So all those sort of above ground vegetables, all your leafy greens, your peppers, and cucumbers, green beans, tomatoes, I include onions, even though they grow below ground, because they're usually a condiment. And so carrots grow, then beets grow underground. But again, if you're using them as a condiment, you can do that. But if you want to just keep things simple, just above ground vegetables, okay? Yeah, and you can't go wrong. You can even you can't you don't have to worry about measuring or weighing leafy greens, just as much as you can possibly talk.   Roy Barker  13:06 above ground is good. That's where you want to go. Yeah. Okay. Yeah.   Amy  13:10 unrooted Yeah, so not not the rooted vegetables. The other place you can get it can be a little squishy is with with squash. Squash is above ground. But I think we all know, there are certain squashes that when you roast them, they taste like candy. So the more they taste like candy, the more sugar is in there. So these are just, if you're trying to be real careful and keep your carbs really low, then my recommendation is to avoid this squash at first. Maybe that's a tier two. That's one of the first things you bring back before the root vegetables. And but it's so interesting because it to me the Wow. So I've shifted a lot. So I was always I've always been low carb. And I've always been very pro keto. And I still am for the right people. But I really come to this place now where once somebody is healthy, so their health is coming back into line. Now they have body goals. So maybe they want more energy, they want to lose some weight, you know, something, maybe you're getting older and you're like, Okay, I want to get better as I get older. So I want to age well, I need more strength, I need more lean muscle I you know. And then I start to look at this idea of total, the least amount of energy, that's usually my dog that's causing I kick them out so they just scratch on the door. And so some people feel more full, if they have more fats, and other people feel more full if there's more carbohydrates. So I like to say we're prioritizing protein. Protein is the target. Okay, and then you have your fats and your carbohydrates. On a seesaw. So if you're having a higher fat day, you're gonna have a lower carb day. If you want to have a higher carb day, maybe you're like, you know what, we just have to have sweet potatoes for dinner. And I want roasted beets in my salad. And so again, I'm talking about real whole food, carbohydrates, not pop tarts. And you know, maybe you're having a higher carb day. And so now your fats are going to be lower. So first of all, in nature, your higher fat foods are typically low carb, and your higher carb foods. In nature, whole real foods are low fat. So squashes low fat, sweet potatoes are low fat beats or low fat. And so if you just eat the real food, you're gonna just that seesaw will move naturally. Okay, it's when we have that sweet potato, or that baked potato, and we throw the sour cream and cheese and everything on there. And now we have fats and carbs together. And this is where sort of the problem arises. And so with clients at this point, once they're sort of healthy and trying to manage their body composition, I'm going to prioritize the protein and then we're going to play around and see where they feel the best. You know, maybe you need more carbs, maybe you need more protein. And if it like, if they're anything like me, I switched from day to day,   Terry  16:23 right? Yeah. So Well, I'd be going back, going back to the squash, my squash never tastes like sugar. I mean, I can do them any which way Roy will eat them. He'll eat anything I cook, which is awesome. But But squash is not one of his favorite things. Now, I did do some spaghetti squash the other day and did kind of like a roasted chicken casserole. Yeah, like non dairy cream cheese with it. Yeah. And, you know, some diced tomatoes and green chilies. And it was really good. It tastes really good. Yes. That's what we do we do meatballs for spaghetti squash. That's our meatball dinner. Yeah. I mean, I love the spaghetti squash and Roy, he likes it too.   Roy Barker  17:14 Yeah. So the other question sorry, as it go, unruly. what how much protein is a target, because I know, there's always controversy about if you start eating too much, it could be converted back to sugar as well or glucose. So   Amy  17:37 this is the whole idea that protein will turn into the chocolate cake and that gluconeogenesis. And I am a believer that gluconeogenesis is demand driven, not supply driven. So I am a high protein, I push high protein. And I obviously I'm not a researcher, I follow and read protein researchers. And I'm you know, kind of learning and moving through that on my own and then with my clients. And one of the things that I have discovered over the years is that it appears as we age, we need a lot more protein than we did when we were younger. So somebody at 55 needs less more protein than somebody who's 25 doesn't mean the person that's 25 can eat God's or protein, they can and they should. But at 55, I don't have the hormones that that 25 year old has to create this muscle protein synthesis. So I am without a certain bolus of protein, I'm not managing my lean muscle mass. Well, which is exactly what I do want to do, as I'm aging, I need to maintain if not grow that lean muscle because it's our organ of longevity. So for somebody my age, so 55, let's say and the older you get, then the more protein but the recommendation that I've seen for me is about 150 grams, or even more per day. And so what I sort of shoot for with my clients is a minimum of 90 grams of protein a day. That's like the bare minimum and I say 90 grams for a reason. And I like three, two to three meals a day without snacking, ideally. And if you're going to eat, then you want that bolus of protein to be about 30 grams. So if you eat three meals a day, that's going to give you 90 grams of protein bare minimum. But ideally you want more than that, so that you can kind of you know, get get that protein up and it's not that hard. Once you get once you wrap your head around it. It's not that hard to eat 45 to 60 grams in a meal. And so you can really get that protein up it's not that hard.   Roy Barker  19:57 Yeah, cuz I've I've seen anywhere from, you know, like, as low as 75, you know, 150 to some even up to 180. So, that's even higher than that. Yeah, even. Yeah, cuz there anyway, just a lot of stuff out there. So that's good. You know,   Amy  20:17 one rule of thumb that I read and I really liked was your ideal body weight in grams of protein. So if you're somebody who wants to weigh 130 pounds, then shoot for a minimum of 130 pounds of grams of protein. So that kind of taste makes it a little easier, because a lot of times you see those equations that it's like this many, you know, this many grams of protein per kilogram of lean body weight and na and, and not everyone's doing math, and it's very confusing. So think about your ideal body weight, and that amount that that's your minimum for your protein in grams.   Roy Barker  20:55 Well, that makes it easy. Yeah, cuz, yeah, lets me run on where I need to, or where I want to, because that's one thing. You know, I'm not anti keto, I just hear that staying on it long term, can have consequences as well. But I think for somebody like me, that's been struggling and trying to put veggies in and, you know, even looking at doing more plant based, I think, you know, now I'm back to the thinking that we just need to drop back to this, try to, you know, ramp up the proteins, take all the take everything out, and then start adding back. If I can ever get to know where I really need want to be on glucose ratings, then just start adding back and see what really affects those, you know, when we start different vegetables.   Amy  21:48 Yes, and it's one of the other things or advantages to prioritizing your protein is you're gonna end up crowding out a lot of those other foods simply because you won't be as hungry, and the protein will fill you up. So you do end up crowding out a lot of the other food so I You're so you're you're leaning sort of more going thinking more plant based. And it's so funny, because I will actually go carnivore, especially with clients who have gut issues. I always, you know, we'll go carnivore, just like clear everything out and let's just heal the gut, then you can start reintroducing and see what works, but that going carnivora often calm all that inflammation down. It's so interesting.   Terry  22:30 Oh, wow. That one? Yeah. Yeah,   Roy Barker  22:34 that's, that's what? No, that's good. Because, you know, we've been struggling with the vegetables just because it's hard to know what you can look at. I don't know, there's some way we could look at them and see what we thought they might do. But there are some that have been good, you know, healthy for me, that tended not to be so.   Amy  22:55 Right. It's very different for every single person, what works for Terry may not work for you, and vice versa. It's just you have to know what's gonna, what makes you feel good?   Roy Barker  23:05 Well, that's good information to have. Yeah, I appreciate that very much. And I think, you know, the listeners should get a lot of benefit from that. There's just so much information out there about what to do and when to do it. But like myself, I've just been having more and more difficulty controlling it. And COVID hasn't helped less exercise probably put on a few extra pounds that I didn't need. So too close to the kitchen to say,   Amy  23:33 you know, I'll be honest with you, this is what I do for a living. And I woke up this morning. And I didn't even want to get out from under the covers, I just everything right now just feel so heavy. And it just makes everything so hard. And I felt like you know, I made it through 2020. And I did a good job. And I, you know, went in positive and I'm like, I'm going to come out better. And now we're having sort of this relapse. It's this this son, you know, analogy of that false summit. You know, we're there, we did it, and then you're just like, oh, you haven't, and it just is so crushing. And I'm just in that just like everyone else. I'm at that place where I just, um, like, I just don't think I can keep doing it. It's just so hard to keep doing the right thing all the time.   Terry  24:19 It really is. It is brutal. And when you fall off, you know, you have a couple of days where you're like, I'm just not going to. I did great. I'm going to celebrate today. I did great the last couple of days eating my celebrate today. And then it's like one more day. Oh, it's the weekend. Our stock start Monday. Well, you know, we're having a hard time getting back into that starting date.   Amy  24:46 So that is that is key, right? Is that okay? I fell off or I you know, I didn't do make the best choices, and that's fine. The problem is you don't want to get stuck there. You need to like step back up. Get back over it start moving again. fallen off and you know, it's okay, but just don't get stuck there. And that's that's the trap. And whatever everybody's gonna have different ways of mentally kind of challenging themselves to move beyond that. And then you're so lucky you have each other and you can, you know, motivate and try to encourage. That's it's important. It's right now especially.   Roy Barker  25:25 Yeah, I think that mental, the mental part of it is because no, we like to keep up on what's going on in the world. But it's unfortunate. It's just not not good news in the know, especially with this COVID it's now what we're seeing here is a lot of just saw a friend of mine that I went to high school with posted something about his granddaughter's whole sixth grade class has been quarantined out of an elementary school. So let's The first one was tough. It was affecting older people. Now this one seems to be different than it affects younger, but, you know, it's like, like you said, When are we gonna? When are we gonna feel like we're gonna handle this and they're gonna be live? Yeah, I just don't feel like I can live right now. And it's getting the best to me. Yeah, the scary part is is like, is this? Is this the new normal? Or? Maybe if it's, you know, is that something not   Amy  26:23 accept this as a new normal? I, you know, Rory, I did have a question for both of you. Are you guys doing any intermittent fasting? Or do you?   Terry  26:34 Do you do any of that? I was gonna bring that up to you. We had when we started doing plant based, we, we started intermittent fasting, where we would eat at noon, and would eat at 7pm and then not eat again until noon the next day. And we kept that up for a good while didn't How about how long do you think it's okay, you felt okay. until noon? Well, yes, I think up until I think about a week of it, I was kind of kind of done,   Roy Barker  27:10 I think we went for about a month or six weeks. But breakfast is my meal, the one that I enjoyed the most. And I just part of it was I just missed the meal. And then, but what I think we would call intermittent fasting, it may not be long enough, but if we could do like from 6pm, six, or 7pm to seven or 8am, you know, still like a 12 hours, I don't know if that's long enough to be considered intermittent fasting, but that would be optimal for us is just to be able to do that. And because that's my worst part is actually at nine or 10 o'clock at night. So that would cure a lot of things for us, you know?   Amy  27:53 Well, so I always look at 12 an hour, 12 hour fast as your if that's like, everybody needs to get to a 12 hour fast. And so you have to have that equal one to one ratio of feasting to fasting and so 12 hours overnight is going to give you that. And that's an I have a lot of clients who can't even to can't start there, they can do 910 hours. So we work our way to 12 hours. And then once you get to 12 hours, and that starts feeling really good, then maybe we do 12 and a half hours, and ultimately try to move it to 14 hours. And then if you really want to go for it, you can go to 16 hours. So more of an eating window than necessarily this idea of intermittent fasting. So for somebody like you who likes breakfast, well, maybe that's when you have your eating window, you have an earlier eating window in the day, and then you just end it earlier. So instead of, you know having dinner, maybe you eat your last meal at 5pm or 4pm or something like that you do your window that way. And I not going to do the math super fast in my head, but whatever would work out for maybe say an eight hour eating window from when you start and then stop. Okay. Yeah, so that's an that's another way to kind of play with it. Or if you want us to do a 10 hour eating window that then you're looking at a 14 hour fast. So you figure out Oh, I do like to eat earlier in the day. So I'm going to have my eating window earlier. So a lot of people are like, well, I'm going to eat at noon, and then I'm going to stretch it till you know, whatever dinnertime. A lot of people do it that way. But I come across a lot of people who are just like I feel better if I eat earlier. So I want to have that morning or that early meal. And you just shift to what works for you. And I asked you about the plant base because one of the things I find with clients and I always say no forcing a fast, I want it to happen naturally. And so when we are managing their sugars, so that they're you know, they're getting to that ability to use body fat for fuel, that's when they start to fast naturally, because now their body has plenty of fuel. It's not asking them to feed them and so their appetite really suppresses You do still get you still, your body will still ask you to feed it because it needs nutrients, it needs you to give it food, it needs those nutrients. But as far as that, you know, stored fuel, it's good tons of fuel. So you don't end up having those hangry these you don't like have that swing where you're like, I feel great, or I feel horrible. I feel great. I feel horrible. And so it makes it a lot easier. And again, if you start to prioritize that protein, you may find that you can do a little bit of a longer window. And but you should just let it happen. Don't force it. Just let it happen.   Roy Barker  30:32 Okay, yeah, cuz I was just thinking, if I do a 10 hour, that would be from eight to six, it'd be optimal. Now it's still given well, but really, you're saying you want to get to a 16 is? Well,   Amy  30:48 I think 14 is awesome. I do I think 14 is great. And if I guess the point is 14 becomes something that all of a sudden you realize, oh my gosh, I went 16 hours today. Fantastic. But you know what? Go with your 14, your 10 hour eating window, and then just let nature take its course. And if that ends up sometimes being longer? Great. Okay, well, we   Roy Barker  31:09 may try that, because that's something we did we know we just talked about, we've talked about shifting it. But really, that's what we would normally want to do anyway is you know, have that last meal around six. Yeah, not eat again till breakfast that cuts all my evening snacks out.   Terry  31:26 And, and so and   Amy  31:28 then you're also creating your own personal food policy, which is, I do not eat after 6pm. So instead of just being like, oh, maybe she has something in front of the TV, you're like, Oh, no, I don't eat after 6pm. It's that simple. It's really, it's one of those funny things. When you create a food policy for yourself, you think I do this, not this, it's that it's cut and dry. It's black and white. And boom, I recently did my had a new food policy that I put in place, which was I do not eat in front of the television. And it's so funny, I, I put up a video on what not to do. Because I put my food policy in place, I don't eat in front of television, this is going amazingly well for like a week. And then I started to get very antsy about it. And I started to feel not good about it. I'm like, I just can't do this. Like it's too hard. And I'm like, what is happening. And I realized in my brain, my simple, I do not eat in front of the television had morphed into no electronics, while I'm eating, no distractions, I have to focus on my food. And it just became overwhelming. And way too much. Because I like to read Yahoo News when I'm eating my lunch. And all of a sudden that was off the table. And then I realized that is not off the table. That is not my policy. It is only that I do not eat in front of the television. And then all of a sudden, it became easy again, I'm like, I can do that. You know, but all of a sudden morphing it into this thing where I had to be mindful all the time when I was eating and no, you know, it's just like, Ah, you know, I mean, at some point, I might get to that place from like, Okay, I'm not going to read Yahoo News when I eat my lunch. But that is not this time. I am not there.   Terry  33:08 I see. I mean, that's exactly what what we do is we just like restrict, restrict everything to the letter, and then we start adding things like exactly like that too much.   Amy  33:20 Yeah, we can have to get really good at that one thing. So it becomes this mindless action, like I don't to the point where you so what we're trying to do is become less mindful. We want to create these mindless habits that actually propel us in a positive direction instead of mindless habits that are totally working against us, like eating in front of the television. I must get more to eat because it's fun. I'm being entertained in multiple ways. Now, you know, so now when I just say no, I'm not eating in front of the TV, I just cut out all the extraneous food calories that I don't need. was so easy. Just a little tiny tweak. Okay. Oh,   Roy Barker  34:02 yeah, cuz that's always been my you know, for years that's been my downfall is that nine or 10? o'clock? hunger and, you know, sad to admit that there'd be times if I didn't even have something in the house. I'd leave it nine or 10 o'clock to go get it then. Anyway, just   Amy  34:19 better to do that though. It's actually better if you have to leave the house and go get it than to have it in the house. That's, you know, cuz you will, you will do that, but probably less often. If it was in the house, you need always do it. Right. Oh, oh, yeah, the food policy stuff. There's, like over eating that's my thing. Like I eat the right food, but I definitely can eat a lot of it. So there's a lot of food policies you can put in place to just help you manage just that one simple thing like, Oh, I don't eat in the car. No food in the car. Oh, I don't eat at my desk. No food at your desk, you know, simple little. Oh, here's one for parents. I do not eat off my children's plate. Oh, is it There, that's the only thing you're going to change. You can have what they're having, but you have to put it on your own plate. That's,   Terry  35:06 that's a good one. That's a really good one. Because that was always my excuse. And that's why I ballooned up. Many y'all do it gives you permission. Oh, yeah, I think you want that, that, you know, help them make their decision on what they want to eat. So you can finish it, because they're not gonna like it.   Amy  35:23 How many times you nibble off their plate? And you don't even realize?   35:28 It's what's Yeah.   Roy Barker  35:31 Well, Amy, thank you so much. For giving up your time, it's been a great talk in, you kind of inspired me to change some things around and see what that's gonna do. So I'm great. Yes. I'm so glad it was really fun talking with both of you, as well. So tell us what is a habit or a tool, something that you use on a daily basis that you feel adds a lot of value to your life?   Amy  36:00 I people are gonna hate this, I like to track my food. I like to track my food, I like to Well, I like numbers. I like data. And while I'm prioritizing my protein, I want to I want to hit my proteins. So I like to look and watch and see Did I hit my proteins is Was it a higher carb day or higher fat day? How did I manage that. So I use carb manager calm as my tracker. And the best thing that I can do is I can get up in the morning and I can put my whole day in my tracker. So I've already outlined everything that I'm going to eat, including snacks, not that I snack, but maybe I want to snack that day, I don't know. So I'm going to include some snacks just in case and they're still going to work, they're still going to my numbers are going to work for me, it's all going to work out even if I do decide to eat those snacks. So that's one of the things that I do to kind of keep track of what's going on, especially right now. Because as I mentioned earlier, I'm having a really hard time staying positive and just doing all the right things. You know, I'm just like, oh, so for me to like, at least stay on track that way. So I can at least see what I'm eating. And and then even throwing the things in there that maybe aren't the best. I got to put them on my tracker. And then I can actually see Well, what does that mean, if I eat? I don't know, Haagen dazs Mini cup. What does that look like in my tracker? doesn't look good. But you know, it's there. So.   Terry  37:28 Right. Well, and that positivity is really aware with Yeah, I mean, that's hard to find right now, you know, just on top of the regular things that you're trying to do? Well, and everything else.   Roy Barker  37:40 And I think it's important, you know, also about that is to be honest with yourself. And because I've done it before, you know, you keep track of all the good stuff, but the bad stuff. It's like a I'm not poor. But I think what we could do is we can see at the end of the week or the month, we can look at our results and say, Well, this is I can see exactly why because I had to hogging dos bars. Right, right. That's why I didn't get much, much traction this week. So   Amy  38:08 I read this thing, probably 10 years ago, and it said, so yeah, you don't have to write it down. But your body knows exactly what you ate. So you might as well write it down tricking anybody. And it's To me, it's kind of a game, like I'll get in the morning, I'll be like, okay, I want to hit my proteins. And I'm definitely feeling like I'm on an apple today. And we have some, you know, cooked red potatoes that we they're so good. And you know, so it's going to be a higher carb day for me. So I'll look at my, what I'm planning to eat. And then I'll look at my numbers. And I'll be like, okay, so I need to tweak some stuff here. Because it's so then I'll play around and see what I what I need to do to actually get the numbers that I want. So for me in the morning, it's just like this little numbers game that I'll play with myself. Right? keep it interesting.   Roy Barker  38:58 All right, well, Amy, tell people who do you like to work with? How that how you can help them? And of course, how can they reach out and get a hold of you.   Amy  39:07 So I often am finding myself working with women, typically 50 and older, who are at this great place in life. I refer to it as our second childhood. And we get to call the shots. But they don't feel great. So they're like, okay, I want I want this I want to feel amazing, I want to be myself, but you know, it's all about me now it's my time. So we you know, that's what I'm working with. And it's I also work with men, but more often than not women are the ones who come to me and sometimes they don't have a weight loss goal. They just want to feel better. And they want to make sure that they're doing the right things so that they maintain their bone health and their lean muscle mass and you know, that kind of stuff. And but you just my website if you go to it's called thesimplicityofwellness.com and actually, it's soon super simple if you go to my website, there's only one thing you can do. And it's a start here button and it just takes you into my free mini course. And, and so that's kind of what's going on there right now.   Roy Barker  40:12 Okay. Oh, great. And we'll include that in the show notes as well. Yeah. Alright. Well, thank you again, Amy. We appreciate all the great information and that's going to do it for another episode of Feeding Fatty Of course, I am your host, Roy   Terry  40:24 Terry.   Roy Barker  40:25 You can find us at www.feedingfatty.com we're on all the major podcast platforms iTunes, Stitcher, Google Spotify for not a one that you listen to. Please let me know I'd be glad to add it to make it easier for you to listen to us. We're also not all the major social media platforms we probably tend to hang out on Instagram. Love for you to reach out and interact with the third there and we have video of this interview will go up when an episode goes live. So check us out on our YouTube channel. Until next time, take care of yourself and take care of your health. www.thesimplicityofwellness.com www.feedingfatty.com

Here with us today is Jason Szeftel. He is an expert with China politics. Listen how we tackle issues regarding force labor and many more.======================================Ari Gronich0:25Welcome back to another episode of creating a new tomorrow. I'm your host, Ari Gronich. And today I have with me Jason Szeftel. Jason is an expert in China politics. He is a writer, a podcaster, and a consultant. He's been in the world of sustainability. And I'm really excited to have a conversation with him about all of that, because, you know, this world we're living in is changing. And we are creating a new tomorrow today and activating our vision for a better world. And Jason might have some good ways for you to do that. And, you know, relationships with the rest of the world. Jason, welcome to the show.Jason Szeftel1:45Thanks, Ari. I'm glad to be here.Ari Gronich1:49Why don't you tell us a little bit about your background, how you got started in, in the relationship with China, and some of your sustainability and those kinds of things. your background?Jason Szeftel2:02Yeah, sure. My China angle for me goes back a long time, probably around 20 years. But I was really, really got interested in China around when 911 and the Iraq war. And all of that really started. That was very curious about not even curious, I was kind of worried and curious and tense and nervous, wondering what was going on in the world, are we going to see with China, the same sort of bizarre miscalculations and hysterical reactions we saw with the US in Iraq and Afghanistan. And then here we are 20 years later, and we've kind of fled with our tail tucked between our legs. And over that time, I just wanted to learn what was really going on in China, what the country was really about what to do with a country that's so large and complex. And we had to understand we have to really understand it, if you want to have any sort of way to get our hands around where it's going and where it comes from. Really. And then yeah, so I started I went, I learned Chinese. In college, I got a scholarship to study in China, in Beijing, at Beijing University. There, I learned about various systems. Actually, that's where a lot of the sustainability stuff came in. I was really interested early on, in how are we developing the world today? How, what systems what electrical types of systems are we building, sustainable water systems, transportation systems, all of this. And when I was actually in China, I was studying their transportation networks, agricultural systems, their demography, all of those inputs that kind of give us the societies that we live in. I was just very curious where that was going. And yeah, at the time, that was the, you know, 2010 to 2015, I was in and out of China, most of the time. And that was where that was kind of the heyday for me of sustainability, and what kind of sustainable future we were going to build. And I actually learned a lot of things that kind of set me against a lot of the mainstream about how would we would get that done? And what would work and what wouldn't work? And yeah, so I've just been kind of putting some pieces together, trying to figure out what could work and what we could do, and then trying to share it with people.Ari Gronich4:00Awesome. So you know, this show is all about going against the mainstream. So let's talk about a little bit of what the mainstream solutions are. And what you've found, are the flaws in those systems, and you know, how they can be improved?Jason Szeftel4:17Sure, well, right now, the two main systems from a sort of renewable energy perspective, it could just take this sort of green energy, which is very important, since the Industrial Revolution, you need energy to run society to run any of these civilizations, any of these industrial systems. And we've typically ran on fossil fuels, coal, oil, natural gas, and everyone, every where's talking about how we're going to get rid of them. And the main two that we've come up with are basically wind turbines, wind energy, and then solar energy with solar panels. And these two things are awesome. I have nothing against them. I think they're very cool. But the issue is that most of the world, the vast majority of the world does not have the solar irradiation you need or the wind speed, height and consistency that you need to have panels, I mean startup panels or turbines running. So if you sort of map it out, and you look at the sort of places where you have the right solar conditions, or at certain conditions that radiation you need, or the right wind conditions, to a very small percentage of the world. And you if you put that next to the places that have the population centers nearby, it's tough otherwise, you have to build very, very large transmission systems. And in the United States, for example, it's very tough to build a single transmission line, it can take decades, it can take 10,15 years. And so, red tape, but a lot of things, it could be environmental things, you could be crossing a lot of preserve, you know, sort of habitats that need to be preserved or endangered species, it can cross through tribal lands, red tape, and then yeah, and then there's increasing backlash from a lot of rural areas. So in California, the two oldest areas for one of the tools areas for wind and solar energy is near Palm Springs. And people in Palm Springs now see a lot of the solar and wind energy production as almost industrializing the landscape. So they don't want to see wind turbines, as far as the eye can see that I want solar panels on all land surrounding them. And it's a real challenge. So that's particularly on the left, where there's so much investment in these two technologies, there's ever more competing interests. And it's interesting that these are both environmental versus environmental, environmental versus humanitarian, environmental versus sometimes racial or other other justice issues.Ari Gronich6:38So when it comes to those two, right, we're not talking about something that I've thought of as a great source of energy for years, which is wave energy, right, the flowing of waves, so they're constantly coming into shore, there is a way to harness that energy, right. But we're not talking about that as far as like a main kind of energy source. The other thing that comes to mind with regards to things like the wind turbines, right, I remember reading, this is maybe 12, 13 years ago, and a Popular Science magazine was a wind turbine that was horizontal. So instead of vertically spinning, it's been horizontal and spun on basically a fulcrum. So there was very little resistance. So it was like a three mile per hour breeze that would cause it to generate energy, which is almost nothing and can be found almost everywhere. Yet, those kinds of newer forms of the old technology still aren't being adopted, right? The solar panels are just starting to undergo transformation in their technology as well. To make you know them less expensive. So here's my question, the point of that rant is, when it comes to these things, how quickly can we move with technology if we got out of our own way, rather than holding technology back due to money concerns and other things like that?Jason Szeftel8:31Yeah, it's an open question. But even you bring up a really good point, that there are different styles of these sorts of technologies, and some of them aren't being considered as much. A big reason why is that? It's a question of scale, and centralization, and a lot of ways. So the large solar and wind companies are just as invested in controlling these resources as a typical fossil fuel company, oil company is. So they want to build giant wind farms. And giant solar farms. Because it gives you scale, it gives you a large size. They're not as interested in doing small micro local sorts of things. There's a big battle going on between should we have giant, giant transmission lines all over the world and all over the country in sort of take advantage of the great wind corridors in the center of the country and sort of shift the energy out, you know, and take advantage of, you know, the Southwest, the United States for solar, or should we try and do this in a more diffuse distributed way, where you have little, little power plants everywhere? I mean that's a big question. Yeah, I mean, that's just one of the things we always got to remember. It's trillions of dollars to replace the grid. And it brings up real questions about reliability, about who runs it, how the systems work, because they're not meant for solar panels on every house. That's not how they're designed. And we'll see where it goes. But you also bring up the question of the tech, the actual, how far can we go? With the technologies we have and so, on solar panels, there's about there's an efficiency threshold, we really not gonna be able to go beyond it. But it's very good, I mean, it's very good. And then with wind turbines, you're sort of what they've decided to do is just go for bigger and bigger turbines, they're not really changing, like, the arrangement of them, they really just want them huge. I mean, I think they're multiple football fields long at this point. And that's also really good for the companies. Companies like vest das in Europe, the manufacturers, these because no one is gonna come at you, if you manage. If you're manufacturing things that big. It's, there's very few companies that can do it. The other question is the industry, where's it located? So and so one of the things with solar panels Is that something like 80% of all solar panels are built in China. And most of the polysilicon one of the key ingredients comes from shinjang. Whereas run it where the entire system runs on forced labor. So there's a big question about, well, should we be getting solar panels from there? You know, if we ramp it up to kind of expand it all over the country and all over the world to run on solar energy? Are we going to do that on the backs of forced labor, in western China, with their people, and basically, in concentration camps, three indoctrination camps and stuff like that? These are real questions. And it's, again, I think there's a strong corporate push at this time behind traditional renewable energy in the form of solar and wind companies. And I find a lot of dishonest at this point, especially because they pretend like there's gonna be a big green revolution in terms of energy and jobs. It's like, No, you guys are just buying panels from China and installing them. The jobs are an installation and construction, it's like, those are temporary jobs, you get the build out, you get the time you get the jobs from the build out, then it's gone.Ari Gronich11:45So, you know, let's say, I mean, we obviously can't change China's stance on how they treat their employees. And at least it up till now our policies are as such that it is tremendously incentivized to work with China, right? versus other places that have maybe better policies towards their people. So how do we bridge that gap between bringing those jobs back to America, bringing those jobs actually to anywhere that they're going to be installed, the manufacturing should be kind of in the areas in which there'll be installed? So that we're always buying local, right? So even big companies can, you know, think a little differently and do that. But how do we bridge those gaps?Jason Szeftel12:43Yeah, that's a great question. And I think you really nailed it, it's going to be more production, where the consumption or the installation happens. That's where things are trending. And the way it works is that China basically flooded the market with solar panels, and did them below cost so no one else can compete to basically cornered the market during the 2010s. That's what happened. They just wiped out the competition. It was not. Again, you don't want to say what's fair, unfair in sort of global economics, it's kind of not how it works. But that's the game they played, and they did very well. So most US solar panel manufacturers are all gone. And what they're relying on now is industrial policy. So they're relying on the Biden administration just like the Trump administration to start, basically, preventing, incentivizing things to make it happen, make them happen in the US subsidizing things, tariffing, different products from abroad, and basically trying to rearrange the global production system we've had since the 1980s. That's kind of what's happening. We see it in semiconductors, we see it in certain solar energy stuff, we see it with certain rare earth minerals. It just goes on and on. It's kind of what we're seeing across the board. COVID really set this, I mean, just set this loose after with the PPE and all of the vaccine problems, mean people in the United States would be freezing out if we didn't have vaccines made in the country. If they were coming from India or China, it would be even worse. So it really gave people a sense of almost like a national security thing for production for the economy. And we're seeing it. I mean, it's almost a bipartisan thing at this point. So we'll see where it goes. But that's where things are happening. We're not really trying to help other countries as much anymore, trying to prevent it from being in China. Number one, trying to build it here. And then we'll figure everything else out later. That's kind of the thought process.Ari Gronich14:26Yeah, well, so my thought process is always How can we plan and work backwards versus, you know, plan from the end result, right. So, in my case, this series I told you about, when in our pre interview, the series of books that I'm writing, tribal living in a modern world is a lot about how do we take technology and marry it with nature, marry it with a natural way of living that does support all the people on the planet and In a way, that's not like the planet isn't killing us because of what we've done to it, right? So how do we marry the modern, the technology, the influx of this revolution that started with the industrial revolution? and bring it back to a sustainable natural flow so that they're kind of together and helping one another versus destroying one another?Jason Szeftel15:30Yeah, that's a big question. I think it's one of the things that really animated the sort of sustainability movement, the more modern one that's more technologically focused since the mid 2000s. It's been a huge question that we need this greater sense with global warming, with climate change, with anything going on in the world. And even with the sort of political conflicts you see everywhere, resource conflicts, water conflicts, that we have to do something. But there is a real question. And a real challenge, just because it's not clear that we can do this for everyone everywhere. what's likely is that the sort of place that could have a sort of marriage of nature and technology is a place like the United States that puts the money into it really invest in it develops a host of new technologies which don't exist, and then is able to sort of transform its society and economy while also keeping it stable, and productive and healthy. Most places on earth cannot do that. And so for China, for example, trying to just transform the Chinese energy system is a massive, massive undertaking. So they use 50% more energy in China than in the United States. And they have all the dirty industries on Earth, right? They do more steel manufacturing, like steel and aluminum preachers like 50% of the entire world, they pull 50% of all the coal in the world out of the ground. Everything. I mean, all these really, really energy intensive, dirty industries, whether it's, you know, minerals processing, or gas, or steel and steel in different smelting procedures. It's just that everything is 30% of world manufacturing. So how do you retool this entire production node in the world to run on new forms of energy? I mean, it's trill again, trillions and trillions of dollars. And it's tough for China to do because they need low costs for everything they have to keep people employed. They can't have dislocated people running out of the factories and started marching through the streets, like you saw on a bit in Hong Kong. I think that it's really tough to see I actually see more countries, not marrying nature and technology in a wholesome way, but sort of heading heading back down in a bad way, not able to get the resources they need, not able to evolve their economy and the way they need not able to sort of bring society forward. At the same time as they're doing all this. It's just extremely difficult. And even in the United States, we don't have the best politically minded, cooperative sort of party system right now. So we'll see how that goes.Ari Gronich17:57I mean, if you were to if you were to like if you were to be doing this, right, but I was Biden, for instance, and you are giving me your, you know, five minutes, so to speak, your your elevator pitch on why I should listen to your consulting, and what I should be doing with the country. As far as this aspect goes, what would you be saying to me?Jason Szeftel18:28I don't want to shirk the question. But I will say that I don't think that the President has nearly as much power as people thinkAri Gronich18:33I understand that. And, and here's how, here's where I feel the power lies. The power lies in somebody like Kennedy saying, we're going to the moon, you have a decade to do it. You know, it's just gonna be done. It's like a mandate, right? They say something, and then the world kind of starts doing the things to make that happen. Right. So Biden has the power of a leadership position where he can create a mandate, he can say, this is what we're doing, you know, like a Kennedy would, I don't think we've had anybody since Kennedy, like that. Jason Szeftel19:17We'll also think our government or federal government's not as competent as it was particularly starting in the 1970s. Its ability to actually execute on programs like that for multi decade or even 5, 6, 10 years. It's just completely almost disappeared. So what we see is some of the biggest revolutions are just privately funded things. So for example, the shale revolution, particularly in Texas, North Dakota, and in Pennsylvania, all these small places, they, it was revolutionary for the US energy system, but it wasn't didn't come through any federal initiatives and actually sort of had to push back against a lot of state initiatives that didn't want fracking and didn't want all this stuff to happen. But it's been probably the biggest energy transformation in 50 years in the United States. So I'm very wary of, I love the idea, I love going to the moon, setting the mission, setting the plan. But even look at NASA since the end of the Cold War, NASA hasn't been able to do anything right now. It's gonna be Elon Musk that goes to the moon with his rockets in Texas.Ari Gronich20:15Now, I understand that. But here's the thing, I guess is the difference. Most people believe that when the government says, Let's do a mandate, that it's the government doing the job, right? You don't realize that it's the private contractors, it's the private citizens, the private companies, the engineers, the geniuses, that are actual human beings, right, that are doing the job that are getting paid. So when they hear something like this will be trillions and trillions of dollars, they don't hear Cha Ching, that means that we're going to be getting paid. That means that our communities are going to have sustainable incomes, and we're going to have a future and we're going to have money to spend and we're going to have things to do all they hear is it's going to cost trillions of dollars. Right? So I guess this is where, yes, I believe that private companies are the answer, private citizens, private people, but I believe that there needs to be some kind of level of incentive that says, You guys got to do this. And you gotta do it now. Because we're not waiting anymore. For your, you know, return on investment, so to speak, we're looking at what's the newest technology? How can we get it out the fastest and most effective, etc.Jason Szeftel21:37Yeah, so I don't want to shirk your question, I'll get back to it and just say, I think that what I would what I would tell them to focus on is, you know, actually try and focus on technology development in certain key areas and stop thinking about technology as just new texting apps, and new video messaging apps and stuff like that. We've really diluted the meaning of the word, technology. And it's really tragic. And some of the consequences. So I'd say, you know, focus on encouraging people to develop new ways to deal with natural disasters. Are there better ways that we can deal with fires? Is there something better than throwing water on it? Right, is there something we could do, you know what I mean, things like that, I think are very important. Ari Gronich22:16You're in LA, right?Jason Szeftel22:17I am in LA? Yeah, I am familiar with it.Ari Gronich22:19I saw 310 cuz my numbers were 310. And so I used to live through those LA fires, right. And I had an idea once and I brought it to the government. I said, Let's plant some ice plants all alongside the mountains, they grow very well there. They don't need a lot of water, but they hold a lot of water. It's like planting cactus, they'll keep a lot of that area from, you know, from burning, because it'll extinguish the fires, but nobody listened. was kind of interesting. It was like a really easy thing I felt like to do. But you're right. We're not telling people to do that.Jason Szeftel23:00Yeah, and it's a lot of the reason is just the government contracting methods. So let's say you and I had an idea for how to better, you know, fight fires in California, well, we'd go and we'd pitch something to, you know, probably this callfire, it would take, you know, three years for them to get back to us. And then you know, we get a decision, then we'd start we get to work on the project for maybe two, three more years. And it's just, it's this massive, extended timeline to try things out. So I believe they should be more encouraging of a lot more experimentation in agriculture and transportation technologies in electrical and energy technologies. I mean, the places bizarre. I mean, even the right to try, that's, I think that's a very good policy, like let's, you know, people are going to die, they have no other options. We should try things if they want, if they want to pay consent, you know, try things. I think that's a good policy. But it's funny, the place where you see the bizarre small innovation and experimentation is often in the military. The military has things like DARPA, that are invested in trying to push things forward with technology. And a lot of impressive technologies have come out of that. So we need a bit more of that focus. It's just very hard to get it together in government, especially the state governments trying to contract with state governments is not fun. So those procedures, I think a lot of things related to it sounds a bit, you know, buzzworthy, but smart government things that can just running the systems for government on more modern systems would be a really good thing. The reason everything's so bad on a government website is because it took the same thing we said, three, you know, six years ago, seven years ago, they had an idea for the website for unemployment benefits in Florida. And then, you know, crisis hits, and it all collapses because it was like, well, this thing was basically 2010 technology, and we don't live in that and it can't be updated. It's not right. It's not right.Ari Gronich24:47Yeah, you know. That's part of like, in general. My issue with business, with government, with what I see in the world, like, I see the technologies as they come out, you know, like the prototypes and the things that people are working on and they're showing done. And then I see what's out and I go, there's such a gap, it's like a 50 year gap between what is here, and what's developed and could be out. And bridging those together is usually a conversation of money, which to me is like the silliest conversation we could have, right? Money is something we made up, the planet, we didn't make up. You know, we didn't make up the need of money to be people who wanted to innovate or grow or things like that, I just find that by using that money as the excuse not to, we have stunted our personal growth, our financial growth, our systemic growth, and, you know, our technological growth.Jason Szeftel26:11Yeah, the places where you see the most technological growth tend to be places with a big consumer market that you can keep coming back to. So if you look at iPhones, or consumer electronics, you get a lot of innovation, just because every year you can put up something new and you can convince them to buy it. And that's huge, big promise for these technologies is if you just have a government buyer, if you just have something like that you can't get rates of innovation and iteration that you need to really continuously advance them. And so in China, for example, there's a new policy, not new five, six years old, called civil military fusion, where basically the Chinese government realized that they can't develop military technology, as it's as good as a lot of consumer stuff. And so what they're doing is trying to actively take consumer technologies, things like electronics, or little drones, that kids use to take videos or whatever to and bring that into the military, because they've realized that the military timelines are now too long and too slow for the same reason. And the United States has actually the same problem. They tried to have a big military cloud product they bought it from there's a whole brouhaha between Microsoft and Amazon. And they basically just said, you know, we're gonna cancel the contract, even though it's four or five years old, because already the technology is already too old. So there's a real challenge of bringing, we actually see. have to find a way to either give something a consumer market, to let it innovate continuously, right? Or you're in trouble. And so it's, that's the place where you can really see a lot of innovation, it's just hard to get. That's why so many technologies just die on the vine, can't pay the people to keep doing it.Ari Gronich27:44So there was something I saw recently, and it was, I think Samsung had their TVs on a subscription, where you're paying just, you know, a monthly amount, and you get the TV and every couple years or whatever, you get the latest one. So you send them back that one, you get the latest one kind of like Apple does with the iPhones these days. And stuff like that. Would it be with you know, if we have to have a money system, I think that would be a good money system is we have a subscription model instead of a buy for model. And that way, we're encouraging innovation versus encouraging people to have to get rid of their inventory before they can sell anything new.Jason Szeftel28:32Yeah, I mean, a lot of things are moving towards the subscription model. It's pretty crazy. Everything feels like it's a subscription. Now, Netflix is a subscription, your entertainment is a subscription. Even writers are doing subscription stuff on substack. There's a subscription ification of everything. It feels like I think there's a good reason why it gives you reliable recurring revenue in a way that one off purchases, that could be one year four, five, six in between really don't do. And often you just don't need as many as much marketing, customer acquisition can be a lot lower, smaller enough to do as best as much. If you have someone in there with you for years, it's reliable revenue, you can loan you could lend off of it, you can do a lot of cool stuff. So I don't think it's going to replace the money system. But it's becoming a bigger and bigger part of the way services are sold in almost every app and every sort of cool app on the internet or on your Mac or on your iPhone. They want you to subscribe because it gives them the certainty that they'll have money and they'll actually continue to invest in improving the technology or at least keeping it up to date for the newest operating system. There's a lot of apps I'll get on my Mac that are free that once you update to a new operating system. They just never updated either because they don't have any incentive to so the subscriptions are definitely here to stay. Although they're kind of getting out of control. They want you to have a subscription for like boxes for your dog. And like everything.Ari Gronich29:56I'm I'm more thinking like if that was the model we went to for technology, like, you know, whether it be our energy system, we're on subscription models, but they don't update the technology with every month, you know, the way that we're paying for subscription, they keep the technology, kind of they maintain it, but they they're not always updating. So that's where I'm thinking, like, Is there a way I just want ways I want things that we can do something that people if they're listening to this in the background, the audience, you know, they're like, what do I do, I'm passionate about something, and I want to be able to, you know, create a sustainable life, I want to create sustainable living with all the subscriptions people are going broke. Because they don't realize that the $9 here and the $10 there and the $9, there's adding up to $3,000. Right, so I you know, it's like, how do we get to where innovation and sustainability technology, and free flowing ideas is like the norm again, kind of like the Roman era or the Greek, you know, era where people were the Renaissance, where it was all about rebirth and growing, I think we've like hit this stage in our evolution, where it's like, we like we got to a place in the 50s, where we liked it, and we just want to stay there forever. And, and so, how do we get back to that rebirth? mentality? I know, you talked a little bit about the psychology of it.Jason Szeftel31:44Yeah, I'm with you on that. I think there's a bit of stasis. And you know, we're all watching Tick tok, and watching videos and all the subscriptions we have are typically little consumer comforts, that let us just keep doing what we're doing, kind of avoid the fact that the rest of the world that we live in, looks exactly like it did in 1970. None of the new physical systems are there, most of LA was built, every home feels like it's a weird, poorly built stucco building from the 70s. They were supposed to go up for like 5, 10 years be replaced and then never get replaced. So yeah, we live, you know, our digital comforts, and digital, little digital consumer electronics really helped us avoid realizing and looking at the fact that the world around us otherwise looks completely old, 50 years old. And you know, in China, it's a bit different, everything is brand new. So there's actually a lot more of a forward looking hungry edge to it, they've seen transformation in their lifetimes in a way that most of us have not. So to get back to it is a real, I mean, it's I think it's like a key key thing we all need to be thinking about. But for stuff, little people, I mean, stuff, little things people can do. That little people, I mean, the challenge with energy is that you often need huge, multi billion dollar investments. So that's not it. But so I mean, if you live in the southwest of the United States, you basically live in one of the best places to have solar energy, you should probably get, I don't want to say should, you can get solar panels on your home, that can be installment payments, and it probably will be a great deal. The panels are really good now. So people who bought solar panels, like 10 years ago, they were paying, they were paying for you to have great solar panels today. You don't I mean, those are outdated, and they're terrible compared to what we have now. And the cost is going down so much. I think you mentioned this earlier, that by 20, 30, solar panels are going to be really, really cheap. And they're going to be at industrial scale at sort of major grid scale stuff, they're gonna be really good. But for consumers, the probably be even better. So that's a great thing to do. I mean, I think Solar City, which is owned by Tesla, Tesla, energy, whatever it's called, now, they integrate batteries and solar panels on your home. And that's a good that's a good combo if you if you want to live in a world where you there's electric cars and solar panels and batteries. And that's I mean, that's a big part of the future. That is advocate the of the most optimistic future advocated by the solar energy cohort of the sort of renewable technology thing. That's something to invest in. I have certain reservations about electric cars, like for example, in China, I don't think China's ever going to be able to run on electric cars, there's, it would need something like four or five times the amount of energy China currently uses, which is more than any country ever, which is 50% more than the United States. And they don't have the energy for that. You would need massive, probably massive, massive amounts of nuclear energy to do that. That's probably the only way. So yeah, I think that's something people should keep in mind running. certain places aren't going to run on electric cars and solar energy. Germany is a great example. They built alot of solar panels in Germany, but they forgot to look up at the sky. And notice that it's overcast all the time. So there's a big installed capacity of solar panels, unfortunately, also old panels, like we said, they said, Germany is subsidized the good panels you can get today. They just, it's just the actual energy generation, the power generation from these panels is very limited. And so Germany actually uses more coal than it did 10 years ago. So those are one of those contradictions that you, you don't get caught in. But again, for people here who live in the southwest, feeling Florida, he lived in the southern part of the United States. So panels ain't a bad idea. And so that's a good one that I would focus on for the energy side of things. Yeah, it's good. The time is there, time is now.Ari Gronich35:42So, you know, you mentioned China could never run unless it was like on nuclear. Unless maybe it was local. You know, local supply, I think, might be a little different. But here's I guess that where I want to go with this question. So we're looking at China, and all of the innovation, all of what they're doing, all the energy, they're consuming the pollution that they're making, the violations that they have on human rights. And we go, all right, we don't really understand their culture much. And so we judge it from our outside perspective and our outside eyes. And so you have a little more of an insider's view on you know what it is to be in China and what it is to be under that culture. So just for the audience who has preconceived notions, which ones are true, which ones not so much. Can you kind of just illuminate on what this thing that we've now known to be? China?Jason Szeftel36:57Yeah, so there's a lot of sort of myths and sort of misconceived notions about China. I'll just try and kind of run through some things that people might find illuminating, to give them a sense of that place. And, yeah, I think one interesting thing people wouldn't realize, and that is so hard for people from the west to understand is that the Chinese Communist Party is not despised as a totalitarian dictatorship. Until the last 10, 15 years, the Chinese Communist Party was actually not in most people's faces. But all that much, it wasn't like authoritarian forcing you to do this or that there was a lot of freedoms on the ground level, because people were, they wanted to encourage private innovation. So back in the 70s, very different story back in the 60s, very different story. 50 very different story. But in the last 50 years, overall, it hasn't been 40 years, it hasn't been up in people's grill all the time, although that's now changing. And so the party is actually thought to be a good force of ease that you can't do polls in China, because that would be dangerous. But in a healthy majority of Chinese people think the Communist Party is overall a good thing. And they support it hard to hard to believe that goes very much against our Western individualist ideas, That's the way it is. So So why, what what MC, isAri Gronich38:18So why? Is it indoctrination? Is it just history and culture? Is it? What is it that that says to them? And are they allowed to be individuals still, even within the system of control that they're in?Jason Szeftel38:32So there's always a propaganda element in every Chinese state, that the Chinese state has to manage its population. So China has on a broad scale has overall bad land relative to the size of the country, and it has limited capital. So it doesn't have a lot of money, it doesn't have the best land. And so there's labor land and capital and technology, but just thinking about labor, land capital, the primary resource in China is labor. It's always been the population. You if you need a great wall built in the desert, you send millions of people to do it. If they end up as mortar for the stones, well, you have millions more. And that's what you see. You need to build things. You get them sent here, you just send people all over to deal with whatever needs to get done. But the people are also a threat. At the same time. You have a large, large, poor population, there's something like the entire population of the United States, there's like a group that large in poverty in China. It's hard to fathom. And yet the Chinese government and Chinese people are more concerned with one thing probably than anything else. And that's political integrity, its political stability and order. And the thing they're contrasting the communist party with isn't some Western democratic liberal ideal of a individualist democracy, blah, blah, blah. It's just chaos. They see the two options as order, often tyrannical authoritarian and terrible versus chaos, which is much worse. And most of China's history is chaotic, it's chaos. It's not in an integrated state ruling over an integrated people integrated territory. It is warring factious clans, and warlords duking it out all across the country. Ari Gronich0:11Wow. So you're talking about the land like, you know, we have a whole song about how majestic our land is. So I want you to, I want you to explain that in a way that people who have never been there could grasp what that means for the people what that land is like and what it means for the people.Jason Szeftel0:30Sure. So China's big. China's about the size of the United States overall, like the physical territory. But China, something like 66-70% of China is mountainous. And a large part of China is just huge deserts, the whole western and northern parts of China are massive deserts. So when you get down to it, the sort of flat, temperate, arable land, you can farm-on, build cities easily, all of that is really small. It's something like maybe 15% of the entire country, and maybe the size of Colombia, like the state of Colombia and South America, that's very different than the United States. The United States probably has 30% of the country, mountainous and hilly, right, sort of like the Rockies. And you know, Denver and Salt Lake are, and then you have massive flat stretches of land, all the way in between the Rockies and the Appalachian is basically the Appalachian Mountains is basically a giant Valley, it's like a million to a million square miles. It's enormous. And there you have the Mississippi River system, really like a bunch of rivers that are all interconnected, you can float things down, that you can send goods, products, troops, messages, everything down and across these rivers. And overlaid on top of these rivers are some of the best access to some of the best agricultural land on Earth. So you really have a Nexus, not trying to sing America, the beautiful here, but just to give the comparison, the United States does have a very, very, very fortunate set of natural features that are a major reason why this country is wealthy and powerful. It's not imperialism, it really isn't. It's not colonialism, the United States was the largest consumer market, the largest agricultural manufacturer, the largest industrial manufacturer, the largest food produced the largest everything by like the 1880s, within about 100 years after it was formed. And it's been all of that since for over 120 years. And that was before it ever invaded Cuba before it ever did any of that it was after the Civil War. So it wasn't built on the back of slavery. So that's something I want people to keep in mind. It's always good to have a good sense of our country, because otherwise we get caught up in very misguided and dangerous forms of American exceptionalism will think, oh, we're so great, because XYZ maybe, but maybe we'd be just as great if we all spoke Spanish, or if we'd all been Catholic or something. And my read on things is, that's probably true. If you happen to be in this part of North America, you've managed to take it all over. And no one had ever been here, in a sort of industrializing and heavily agricultural manner, like the Native Americans weren't quite like the 1000s of years of Chinese agriculture. It's very different. But in China, you don't have something like that. The Eastern lowlands of China that are basically the core regions of China are the yellow and Yangtze river valleys. This is 90% of the Chinese population lives there. And it is not like the United States. It's not like what we were just talking about, like this great large center heartland or whatever you want to call it of the United States. It's much meaner, it's much more overpopulated. It's crowded one way, think about it. Imagine the United States was mostly mountains. And then on the East Coast, you had a big kind of large East Coast was, you know, you could fit more people there, you had 90% of US population there. But instead of, you know, 300, 200, something million people, you had 1.2 billion people all stuffed there. So you have in China, you basically have the American Midwest. And on top of that, you have the equivalent of New York, and Boston, and Washington and all of it, it's all piled all piled on top of each other. There are people fighting for land, space, air, water, everything. And there are factories and mines and schools and in cities on top of farmland. I mean, this is just the way it is, there's not enough land. And that's really, really important to keep in mind.Ari Gronich4:17Right? And so for people who have belief systems, like everybody should go back to their country or something, right. We're talking about a country, where are they planning on going? Right, when the population gets too much for that place? Are they planning on terraforming some of those mountains? Are they I mean, like, what can they do? once that population is too much for the landmass?Jason Szeftel4:52It's a real question. It is certainly straining the ecological carrying capacity of the land. So many people China's built over 600 major cities that has over 100 major cities with over a million people that all built in the last few decades. And that's an enormous amount of people's products of resources that you need. And to sustain that is even harder, you have to keep feeding it, you have to keep pouring down. So you have to keep building buildings, you have to do all of that. It's just maintaining it is very difficult. But one thing people should remember is that waves of Chinese people have been leaving China for over 800 years. Okay, this has nothing to do again with colonialism. China was not never colonized. Or it was beaten up by Japan in the 20th century, but was not colonized by other European powers before that. And the reason you have waves of Chinese people in Southeast Asia, and why you have Chinese people in the United States, originally in California in the 19th century, is because China is chaotic and unstable. And you actually saw basically wars between the northern equivalent of northern and southern China, and the southern Chinese fled to Southeast Asia. And then they fled to California as well. These are typically people from southern China from the Guangdong Hong Kong sort of region. And it's that instability in China that has led to waves of Chinese people elsewhere in the world. So that's a very important thing to keep in mind. Because Yeah, people are you tell them to go back to their country, but they've left because of instability to call it often to call China a country is not correct. Like that's a new modern nationalist thing started in the 20th century, China was more of a culture and a civilization, ethnic heritage, cultural heritage than it was a single unified country. That's, that's important. But you also asked just the question of, well, what do you do with when there's too many people. So China has been in a war between its geography, nature, this terrible land it's been given, and any and all technologies that can use to help it. So China has enormous plans for everything, right? They're trying to move water from southern China, up to northern China, because northern China is sinking, drying out and getting covered in dust storms. And it's prone to drought and floods. And it's a problem in a lot of ways. So they're trying to do that, they're trying to build a green wall, basically, a Great Green Wall, to block out the expanding Gobi desert is trying to eat up a lot of northern China. So they're trying to do all these things. But there are fundamental limits, it costs a lot of money just to remediate all the pollution, all the, you know, the air and the water pollution. And like we mentioned, just paving over important farmland, all this kind of stuff, just to remediate that is trillions of dollars. So in a lot of ways, China is stuck with a kind of bluets load, it stuck with the development, it managed to get in the 80s,90s,2000,2010s. And it's going to have to make choices make tough choices about what to do afterwards. That's really the best way to think about it. But in China, typically, things devolve into pretty brutal scenarios you run out of, you have to choose between water and electricity to choose between getting fertilizer, and, you know, building military weapons or whatever. And that is, those sort of brutal questions might be coming back pretty soon. So that's what to keep in mind. It's very hard, like we said, like I was saying earlier, to, most places don't have the ability to marry nature and technology in the way that perhaps the US can if it can build a sustainable system. But like I mentioned with energy, even Chinese agriculture is its own disaster, Chinese transportation, a lot of it is just being built to keep people employed, right? Do you need autonomous electric cars, and rail systems to go to every single country, every single city? Wouldn't you just need one or the other? Maybe one of these never gonna do you need also planes and airports and every single one, like you a lot of the basic economics of these things aren't rational. This is a political project, all of this stuff in China, like we said, they worry about political integrity, and chaos. And that's what they're trying to prevent. And we'll see how it goes. But it's a tough, tough problem. Ari Gronich9:10Seems like a bit of a pressure cooker. Actually. You know, it seems like something's gonna blow.Jason Szeftel9:15I believe so. I believe so. I think that all you need is one the hammer to fall in one area, and it can start a chain reaction, that's what's always happened in Chinese history. So the people don't remember if China is a massive superpower. And it's always been it's, a once in future superpower. And this is just as rebirth into the modern world, which is kind of some of the narrative we've all heard. Really, if that is the case. Why? Why do all of its states always collapse? Every single one has collapsed. Every single Chinese state has collapsed and ended in a massive kerfuffle and bloody struggle. And we need to look at why that's happened. And see if there's anything different today. It's really the question is, What is different today. They could keep China together not? Well, China will continue forever, without any problem, because that's not what's happened. Ari Gronich10:06So let's take it to a cultural step there in that case. So culturally speaking, what keeps China going? Is the culture that they've developed over the last, however many 1000s of years of doing this behavior of implode, rebuild, implode, rebuild, implode, rebuild, right? So different mentality, different psychology. You know, let's talk about how the psychology of that is manifesting in the scenario versus, say, the psychology of, we're in this together, we can do this. And we just got to figure out and plan the steps and then execute them. Right. So taking it out of that emotional, back and forth, upheaval. Do you think that China's capable at this point of shifting the psychology from ancient to modern?Jason Szeftel11:12No, no, I think that the psychology is the desperate struggle for political integrity and unity. And it's very hard to move away from that. And so the way it works in China, like we were saying earlier, If US has a lot of different pieces, right? There's Texas, there's California, like there's the Northeast, the Northwest, there's Alaska, there's Hawaii, there's many different parts in different cultures all around the country. And that's something we all we always think about Florida is not California, Alabama, is not Minnesota. And this is the same thing in China. So when I'm talking about political integrity, and all of that, what I'm really talking about is northern China, Beijing is in northern China, Beijing actually means northern capital, in Chinese. And northern China is where you have political, military, and political military power. And what has always happened in China is that China is the creation of the Northern warlords, basically, and they conquered the rest of China. And they actually did that. Just as recently as well. That's there's only one time in Chinese history when there hasn't been like a northern power that took over everything else. And that's the culture that matters. That's the culture that is running the show. So southern China, in the southern ports have a very different perspective, Shanghai has a very different perspective, western China, Tibet, shinjang, very different perspective. But the overriding one, the only one that can come to the top, and really set the tone is the one in northern China, because that's the one that can keep things together, or can try to, if you let Hong Kong run China, there's not going to be China very long, there's not going to be any of that. So to have a unified China, you really need this northern power to keep things together and obsessively try and make it work. And usually it fails at some point. But that's the culture that rises to the top. So there's never No, no Chinese leader since Mao has ever been from southern China. They go down on tours to southern China. That's a big moment in Chinese history in the late 70s, early 80s. When and then early 90s, when Deng XIAO PING went to southern China, that was a big moment was it was a symbolic event, because southern and northern China aren't the same even ethnically or visually, a lot of Chinese people know and can tell someone who is from Southern versus northern China, it's, again, these have been not not even just separate countries. I mean, they've been different places that are populated for 1000s of years. Right there. There's a region in China called Sichuan, which has the good food that has its own, you know, old culture that had a culture that went back three over 3000 years, had its own language. And even today, the Sichuanese is like the language they speak there, more people speak that as a first language than German or French. And the, you know, the province of Guangdong in southern China, where Hong Kong is that there's more people there than any country in Europe, except for Russia. So there's just it's a scale question. So this question of like, can you integrate it into a new harmonious sort of cultural and if the Chinese perspective is no, there's way too much diversity, the histories are way too old. And what they did was they they simplified the language they impose written Chinese on everyone, because these languages in China they say they call them dialects. So this is a dialect this a doubt. It's not most languages in China are mutually unintelligible only propaganda calls them a dialect, right? But you have to do that because you want this sense of unity. It is essential. So that's what I would say this up and down this endless up and down, build, collapse, rebuild all that it has a permanent mark. And to move beyond it. That's been the goal since 1949, and Wilson's modern try since 1911, really, and they just have not found a way to do it, and technology and pushing into the future. Pushing as fast as you can. It's kind of like Republicans or Democrats trying to focus on enemies abroad or broader ideals that pushes people forward and can also avoid some of the immediate problems like, well, maybe everyone, the republican party doesn't agree right now on things. Maybe everyone that, you know, the democratic party doesn't quite see eye to eye and in factor, you know, clashing in moments? Well, let's look into the future. Let's just ride this technology wave as far as possible. That's what China's been trying to do.Ari Gronich15:30That sounds like a good thing to do, though. So that's what I like is let's ride technology as far as it can go, until it becomes seamless with the rest of nature and the rest of the world. But, so for Americans who want to do business with China, who are in the business, like, I used to do a lot of manufacturing of gym equipment, we know he had factories in China. So for people who want to do business with China, don't know how safe it is, don't know the processes and all that stuff. Just kind of give a little bit of a what would somebody want to think about? Jason Szeftel16:13Yeah, so the whole relationship with China is changing right now. It's transforming, there's more conflict, more animus than in hostility that we've seen since relations were normalized, in the 1970s. So we are really looking at a major sea change and what's been happening. So you know, how to think about it. Not to plug but I do if people have specific questions, sort of, you know, if you're in the entertainment industry, you want to see if your content can work, if you manufacture things, you want to see if your products will get stolen and copied right away. Those are sort of things I help address sort of directly, because it can be very specific. But in general, you probably, it depends industry by industry. But in general, I think what you said earlier, is the long term, right move. I think, if you can, you want production maybe in North America. I know that it's very difficult that the challenge of moving out of China is extreme. But the costs are also rising. I think that, you know, maybe you're not going to be able to do massive production runs all across the world, right, you don't need the same scale that you had, if you're just really selling in the United States. If the global supply chain system, global production world we live in changes, maybe you don't need that you can get ahead of the curve. But in general, it's very dicey these days, I mean, energy costs are going up across the Chinese coast. So our labor costs, so prices are higher. So a lot of them, they're eating a lot of those costs. So right now they're keeping people employed, their subsidies, etc. But they're rising, and a lot of people are moving to Southeast Asia. Is Vietnam. If you're, you know, textiles, you can move back to the United States, you can move to Southeast Asia, but does depends on each industry. But we're also seeing more and more party infiltration of operations in China. So just to think about it, just to give you a broad context, the Chinese Communist Party is a 95 million person organization that runs the country, right? So you have all these government agencies, and they're staffed by party officials, it's as if there was one, you know, Democratic Party, there's only one party allowed in this country. And they sort of had a shadow organization in everything, right. In the 1970s. Like I was saying earlier, this was everywhere, you used to get your food from the party leader, the party bureaucrat, the press secretary in your town, you get your housing from him, your business would be, you know, secured by him, etc. That changed when you had, you know, the privatization and entrepreneurial sort of time came, but later, now, we're kind of getting back to some of that. So there are party officials, party cells, party councils, and coming back to everything, multi-tenant buildings will have party officials, major corporations, all our party officials. So a lot of people that have joint ventures with companies in China are realizing that the state companies that they're partnered with, have a lot of party activity going on. And so the party is trying to both claim the glory for rejuvenating China and wants to be back in everyone's face and doesn't want to be behind the scenes as much anymore. Once people see the red armbands, you know what I mean? Here we are, you know, we rebuilt China, it's the national rejuvenation of the Chinese nation. But it's also just getting up into everyone's grill again. And so major tech companies are having, you know, there's party control of their data at this point as well. So I'd be very wary, I think, again, it really depends on the industry, if you're just manufacturing small things, probably not a big deal. Keep doing it wherever cost is lowest, right? I mean, you're trying to have a business. So that's a smart thing to do. If you're sending a lot of data back and forth to China, that's probably gonna be dicer and dicer. But, but yeah, it's again, I think there's so much transformation and change right now, that giving the broader sort of general stuff can be tougher, but the general stuff I'd say is that relations are getting worse with China every year and things are probably gonna keep getting worse. Because the humanitarian crisis in western China, the political conflict with Taiwan, the sort of eradication of a lot of the freedoms and everything that's gone on there for decades, centuries, the conflicts with potential conflict with Taiwan, you know, the militarization of the South China Sea, all this isn't going away. In fact, it's all kind of hitting into a massive nexus of problems. That is allowing the US government to target China more than ever before. We are also seeing more cyber attacks and cyber targeting by Chinese companies than we have ever seen. So how do I be wary of all this? Personally, I'm not going back to China. I don't think I'm welcome anymore. I wouldn't want to have an exit ban. So I come in and never allowed back. But people should be wary of this. I mean, this is not. Yeah. Ari Gronich20:44So, what's the devastation potential? As we pull back and start manufacturing in the US again? And in doing those local things? Is there a net devastation or a net benefit to like calming the water, so to speak, by taking back some of those jobs? And some of that? I mean, what the prognosis.Jason Szeftel21:07China? Do? You mean, calming the waters? Are there tensions with them?Ari Gronich21:11No, I mean, calming the waters as far as like, they're busy, right? They're busy, busy, busy, busy, they don't stop, they're busy. They're doing all our stuff, all their stuff, you know, all of the rest of the world stuff, as you said, like 50%, of manufacturing and of energy consumption and all these things. They're busy. If we pull back, and we start manufacturing in the US, as the largest probably user of the Chinese, you know, people. What's the prognosis? What's going to happen?Jason Szeftel21:49Well, it's a, it's a dicey thing, the Chinese system is built for exports, it got all the money, most if not all, got a lot of the money, it needed to develop the country through exports, since the 70s, late 70s, and 80s, it just money came in through the ports, they loaned against it, and they built everything in their country. That's the general super simplified story. So that's also where that's one of their most productive and credible industries. And it brings in hard currency and does a lot of things to stabilize the Chinese financial monetary system. But you know, if that goes away, there are deep deep challenges that the state has to face. And a big one is just that, China needs the enormous volumes of global manufacturing, it needs to build not just for China, widgets, just for China, but widgets for everyone. That's how it gets the volume. That's how it gets the profits. That's how it gets the scale. And that's how it keeps the employment levels up. China needs people employed and needs money coming in. And the US pulling back is a major, major threat, because the US is the largest consumer economy in the world. So you can add up the rest of Europe, and you're not going to get the same sort of effect for China. And they need to read. So this has been the whole thing, the last 10 years, people were like, well, China's gonna have to change catches export forever. Japan doesn't just do that Japan's clue that's just exporting all around the world, like it was in the 70s. Things have changed, but China's going to really struggle, I don't think it's, I don't think it's impossible for it to be a consumer economy. Ideally, China would want to start manufacturing for itself, sort of rejigger the economy, have more internal products and services and be able to sort of self-sustain what it's built. But that's for a lot of reasons. That's probably not possible. So this is this question. I mean, this is what makes the Chinese state governments so tense, so nervous and anxious, and defensive. You see that with every all of their diplomats are, you know, getting, you know, in everyone's face and having all this negative commentary, and they're, they're trying to project the image of power to their own people primarily. And, you know, to try and not be seen as weak to not have any, any event that could suggest that the Communist Party is, you know, weak or incompetent, or out of its depth, or illegitimate because they run on getting things done. Like you said, busy, busy, busy, keep doing things that people agree with it. You don't you can't vote on on their policies, but you can, you can see that they're responsive and making things better. And that's what they run on. It's like performance. It's like

Tracy Lamourie Founder LAMOURIE MEDIA an Award Winning Publicist has been featured in Rolling Stone, NBC, CBC, HuffPost and here with us today to talk about how Self confidence can lead to success. Ari Gronich0:03Welcome back to another episode of create a new tomorrow I am your host Ari Gronich. And today I have with me Tracy Lamourie. Tracy is a PR expert who I'm going to not even read her like her normal intro, I'm gonna let her tell you about it. But this woman made her career by taking about 20 years or so of her life, and setting free an innocent man who was on death row. So hey, you know, I'm gonna let her tell you a little bit about that story. And then we'll get into an awesome conversation that hopefully will help you create a new tomorrow for yourself, activate your vision for a better world, do something big in your life, like Tracy has. So Tracy, let's uh, let's get into it. Tell us a little bit about you.TLTracy Lamourie0:47Hi, there. So yeah, I'm based in Canada, I'm Canadian girl working usually internationally around the world, when it's not the middle of COVID. We're on the other side of that level. So our borders are a little slow and opening up. So I've been here, no basement doing my magic. So I'm an international award winning publicist, working across borders and across industries. And for people who don't really know what that is, is basically getting people in the news getting people elevating their profile, whether they're entrepreneurs, executives, musicians, creatives, authors, all that. But this just happened for me because of a natural kind of, I should never say natural. But what I started doing it for 20 years, I ended up here. And so all the VIP parties and all the travel and all the super cool, amazing things that go with being a publicist, were in my original plan, I was originally an activist in my 20s with my husband, Dave, Markinson, married 26 years now we've done all this together, starting with a little radio show in Toronto a long, long time ago to college radio. And then when that was no more was the early days of the internet, we still wanted to have a voice, you know, to change the world, to, you know, make things more equal, like you know, all those things that you're passionate about in your 20s. But I'm still passionate about today. And we found out just in a little curved corner of the early into the early interwebs. About a man named Jimmy Dennis would aid for this little add on line. And he's with being a I'm on death row. I'm not looking for a pen pal, I'm not looking for a girlfriend. Because a lot of those preserving unpolished Western, I'm innocent, and I need help. So my husband and I, we wouldn't be like I want it to be. And if people asked us what made you actually write, we actually wrote a letter we wrote to him and said to tell us more. And I think partly because obviously we were activists, but also we had that radio show not long before, we were still in that information gathering. And so we put pen to paper and we said tell us about it. And we wrote a letter into death row. And he wrote back with a 28 when we were 28 years old, and he was 27. Even back with a 28 page letter on both sides. And all the legal documents that was in the cell breaking down the hope is that there was no brochures or pamphlets or websites or anything. And we got this and what do we do? People said Don't you know, how did you? Why did you do what you did? But again, why don't we write that letter? We wrote the letter. And then once we did, here's a person who wrote back, you know, 28 pages, who's clearly desperate and needs help. So what do you do with that? You just say it was a fun read, you know? So obviously we like, Oh, well, gee, what are we like? We have to do something about it. We had no money we had no, I wasn't a publicist, we certainly weren't lawyers. But we thought, Well, if we're this upset, reading just this much, you know, maybe we can put it on these interwebs and somebody who has the ability, somebody who has money, maybe somebody will buy a lawyer as we originally thought. So we started doing that. And ultimately, we ended up being disturbed by the death penalty in general in America through looking at that case. So there we were 28 years old. This is how I learned to write a press release. I literally went to the AltaVista precursor to Google and learn you know, for immediate release out of right that it was really hard to get attention for a case that was you know, someone was still convicted in America and in those days it was before making a murderer or was before all the wrongful conviction, serial and all those podcasts before all that so we had the internet we had the you know, email and everything but it wasn't easy. So the way that we decided to address that because it's like we were little mini publicist before we even knew PR was well if we talked about the death penalty in general as opposed to just this case and use this case as an example then maybe we'll get a more media. So we did that. We wrote up press releases for immediate release. And literally there were 28, 29 years old on CNN again we have no legal experience no PR experience not very much Media Group. And then we were on CNN on MSNBC on port TV on panel. With lawyers being interviewed by Katherine Grier, by Nancy Grace, by lay Oh my god. So it will took another 11 or 12 years, that was just, you know, not for profit, volunteer. By the way, Jimmy Dennis was freed in 29th 2017, we talk almost every day in these amazing things going on with him. He's an R&B artist now. So that's when your listeners should check that out, because the whole other story, but, you know, in terms of it another 11 years before I thought, Hey, hold on a second, because I was just in telesales, I could probably, you know, not have a life I hate, I could probably not to sit here doing sales reps were like, the skills that I built, dealing with media are actually valuable skills. And then I thought, that's my thought, like the transition and you know, help people who don't understand how to get into media, get into media, and that's when I was 41, 10 years ago, it became a business.AGAri Gronich5:55Nice. So I'm going to unpack this a little bit. Am a unpack for you a little bit. So first of all, you know, I love this story, because it reminds me of one of my favorite stories, which is the story of Hurricane Carter. And I don't know what it is about you Canadians coming down here thinking you're going to save, you know, all the American people, but I do. I mean, I appreciate the thought, you know, it's just, it's funny to me that, exactly, exactly. But here's the question, what is it that Canada breeds into the people that makes them say, Go read it, you know, say a book of Hurricane Carter's or a little post on a little website on a brand-new thing called the inter-webs, with Bolton board services. I mean, what it wasn't like you had google it was bulletin boards and things. I mean, what made what is it that makes you do that? And that's anybody I'm joking about the Canada America?TLTracy Lamourie7:05Well, I think what I always say to that, because I mean, you can't tell the story, I know when other sounding heroic and epic and all that stuff, right. And so I always bring dial that back because I'm not heroic or epic more than anybody else's. And this is where I say that like, even though I did that thing, right? I think that more people would do stuff like that all the time. Canadians, Americans, whoever, everybody would, instead of watching Netflix, whatever, if, if, if they actually believed they could, but people don't think how do you know, maybe I was we were naive. We were a bit when I was that kid. In hurricane you, I was privileged to meet Ruben several times, towards the end of his life, he moved to Canada, right. And so and I didn't even TV, that connection in those days about how the Canadian like, I didn't even see that even though we were watching the movie and stuff. But I think more it's a matter of feeling empowered, you know, whether you're too dumb to know, you can't make a difference or feel that you know, you can, because you've been you've done it before in other rounds. That's what I think it all comes down to self-belief and that, you know, and not like, Hey, I can do this. But to think we'll wait, you know, I can do my little part, I can take a step I can make the difference. If I do this, maybe somebody else to pick it up and do this. I never thought at 28 years old, I was going to be able to free that guy from death row. But I kind of did. I kind of did think so I thought that the world would free and I thought if we if we made it known, if we did our little part, which was words, people would find out and then it didn't go quite that way. Because a lot of opposition, they don't want to be bound up. They don't really want unraveled the truth once you start, you know, but so there's a lot bit it was a bigger beast than we thought. Right? We thought we just have to pointed out and then we were fighting a bigger battle that we even knew we were. So those things intimidate people and you don't feel like you can make a difference, right? But same reason people don't start a business or they dream of going to travel but they never do it. It's because they ultimately thought that they don't see themselves doing it. It's easy, easier to not do it. You know what I mean? Like it's not, it's just because I'm better. I was dumb enough or like hubris enough where to be like, you know what we can do we can do here and then you see that you can make a difference. And as you do those things, you're like, Whoa, look what we just did. And that gives you the confidence and the whatever to keep doing it.AGAri Gronich9:24Yeah, absolutely. Um, I was gonna ask you how being an activism how being an activist is akin to capitalism. Because I think that a lot of people think that they're opposing forces. And I think that they're marriable, right, that they have that the two things go together really well. Doing good, makes a lot of money when done right kind of thing. And so you've been able to in your career pivot from activism into capitalism a bit. And that was, the next thing I wanted to unpack with you is that transition, you started it with belief in self. And I just want to, like, I want to emphasize that for people right, you have to do the work on yourself. So that you have belief in yourself so that you have blind faith, that what you are doing is going to make a difference in the world. And so I just wanted to emphasize that and then have you unpacked in it. TLTracy Lamourie10:37Once you do that, you do it, right, because you're when you're like, Okay, I can do that. Why wouldn't you I really, truly believe that people, you know, people are good, like I am, Frank said, I still believe good in people. And it's true. You know, most people will help you know, if there's someone in front of them that starving, you're gonna give them a sandwich, most people that are you know, they're going to, so it's just that they don't feel like they have the power to make an impact. So we don't even try to make an impact. And that's the same as in our own personal lives and doing these other benefit ourselves as it is, you know, why don't more people be the starving children or help this whatever. So I always say that because like, it's hugely epic, you know what I mean? Like, I know, you can't, like how can you tell that story without and people want to applaud you and be like, awesome. Oh, my God, you thought that I was gonna know. But the point of it, the whole point of it is not the applauded point of it is for you guys to realize this dumb ass girl with no, I'm a brilliant blah, blah, blah, strategic publicist, you can see my list of you know, whatever behind me and my alarm, right. But when I was 20s, you know, there, I'm just basic yo with the red hair. When I said to myself do what can I do? I don't have any money. I don't have any. But doesn't matter. I had the passion. And I had this, you know, an out of that, look, I built this. I never even met you. Now this weird rear is developed, which I you know, wow. You know. But again, it took a long time for me to think of that. Yeah, that was part of the strategic this. It wasn't like I went from that goal of not button this high profile, I'm not going to turn it into money. We were doing that for like, it was like a decade after we did TV that I was still doing all the sales, still doing all that we just really focused on getting a better death row. And then it wasn't until like, a couple years before we got out when we realized, yeah, it's happening. That's like, wait a minute, when they literally booked to make another phone call for my crappy job. And I'm thinking I wish I could remember what I was thinking the minute before that, like, clearly remember that Revelation where I'm like, wait, wait, wait, I think that's the publicist. I'm not doing this anymore. And then from that moment, I literally went and looked into how can I get freelance work as publicist, because I have this history of doing that I get paid. I wish remember what I was gonna, what I was thinking the moment before that. AGAri Gronich12:48You're probably thinking, I've got to make another call. It's the breath at the end. You know, nobody can see the breath on the audio. But if you're watching the YouTube, you can see the breath, right? alright. You know, it's funny, I, you know, the revelation moment. I know, for me, being a healer, being in my industry was I was dead. And then I woke up in a hospital and I sat up and I said, I think I need to be a healer. Right. That was my, it was a pretty freakin' clear revelation moment. But I have no idea what was happening in my head before that.TLTracy Lamourie13:39I really wish because I mean, so clearly, I remember that going. Nowhere. And from that moment where I remember it is I didn't make another call. I might have made one more call, by the way. I remember it is I was like, Oh, yeah, no, no, I started searching. And I found Elance. That's how I first started Upwork. Now, I first started, I used to get flipper lines on that until I just started getting transitioning to your LinkedIn. But yeah, so from what I remember, is that literally with no, I'm not doing that anymore. And then was and then I was like, I think they call that a publicist. Okay. Now I'm a publicist. And then pretty quickly, I got a client and one of them was there, like I think I told you before, Angela Sadler Williamson when Rosa Parks cousin. Who wrote the book, like, oh, sorry, that movie, my life is rosy for adults, which is on amazon prime. And this week, was like nominate was nominee, whatever it is, for me. And that was my first you know, one of my first proceed and that's when I was like, Okay, I guess I'm in the game. You know, me. AGAri Gronich14:43So, here's something. You've been saying. I want to unpack that too, is you thought of it and then you did it. Right. You, you thought of it and then you started doing actions. You thought I can do this. And then you started making actions towards it. A lot of people think I could do something, I have this great idea. I wanted to do this, oh, man, I saw that I created this thing I'm seeing out now I created that 10 years ago. Why didn't I do it? Why didn't I do it? So all of those things, you know, go through my mind when I hear you saying, well, I just did this. And then, and then I started writing. And then I went on to Upwork, or, you know, Elance, and I put my ad out, and then I, these are all action steps that you're doing. Right? So people like, I used to get really upset at the law of attraction, because I felt like they missed this step, the action step. And so people were like, “Well, I made my vision board. And nothing.”TLTracy Lamourie15:47Such way I always say you can do all that then act in a chord.AGAri Gronich15:59Act in accord. Exactly. So this is where, where the thing you want to do becomes live becomes alive right. So let's.TLTracy Lamourie16:09How I know how people say fake it till you make it. I hate that because I'm very genuine. I don't like fake it till you make it as this wrong message. But I get what they're trying to say with that. And so what I would I say with that is from the Rocky Horror Picture Show, which is don't dream it, be it? Have you ever heard anybody talk about Rocky Horror Picture Show in a business? Because you know, I can't afford No, but seriously, it's just a life lesson. But I always love that don't dream it be it. So it's the same as I get you know, it's the saying. If you want to make it you don't fake it till you make it. Be it. Started it, do it. Take a step. Now you're in, you want to write a book, don't just think about write a page. Oh, look at me writing. Now you're ready. You know what I need? Like me? Well, I took that step. I made that freelance or whatever upward page. And then I you know, put myself out there. And then I got a reply. And oh my god, I got that one client, that one like I got and just started Williamson. And actually a Kennedy person, one of the crazy, one of my first client on Upwork. Back then, which is not even touched now was like a member of Academy can remember that story of the Kennedy, brother or cousin or somebody that had murdered the girl in Connecticut in the 70s. As about 10 years ago, there was something going on with the legal situation. And because of my history and the death penalty stuff, right? When I had my contract there, they saw that until we were looking for somebody to write the words for a web page for Michael's Skakel. So I worked and it was Kennedy family member and I've you know, ever the name right now. But it was legit, on Upwork and great. People are on that Upwork by the way. Like, I mean, I've literally got Rosa Parks cousin and the Kennedy hired me on that. And so that was just like a little short project at the time. Like it was like a what? But I mean, you know, so then I'm like, Okay, hold on. You can do it. That was not easy. I was a freelancer. I didn't even have all these accolades. I had, I was good at what I guess I did plan on the history of what I'd done for the, you know, I had been on CNN, media messaging and got us on CNN. It wasn't just like it was pointed successes. But still, that's very quickly on to your point. And I said, I was gonna do it. I went on there and did it. All of a sudden, I worked with Rosa Parks cousin, Emma Kennedy.AGAri Gronich18:24Crazy, isn't it? Yeah, well, just do it. I go back to the risky business, you know, movie, and the line that Tom Cruise is famous for saying, which is every now and then you just gotta say what the fuck. Do it? And you know, it's funny, because here's what here's what the audience is. Forget, you know, not hearing right. Is that the thing that's stopping us from just doing it? There is a thing that is an actual thing stopping us from doing stuff. Right. Now I call it trauma. And then the resulting behaviors and automatic patterns because of the trauma, fear, you know, distrust, not feeling good enough, not feeling worthy, all those kinds of things. Right. Sounds to me, like you act beyond fear, right? In some level, even though you're experiencing it, possibly. So how did you get to a place where you could act despite maybe the fears and the traumas and the things that were possibly coming your way? Because a lot of what people want to do these days is go up against the systems like I do, go up against the systems as they are. This is going to spark a lot of their fear barrier, right from just doing it. So why don't we talk a little bit about that?TLTracy Lamourie20:09Yeah, I don't know if I have a perfect answer for that. That's a really good question. I think I'm, you know, trying to think as you asked, where, when I started being like that, but I think about I mean, I've always been, it's funny, I think back to the conversation I had when I was 15, and my best friend, Jennifer, and we, cuz I was gonna say, I've always been super confident. But at the same time, I've always been like, anybody not confident I was, you know, the fat, fat girl, you know? So with all of that, that's, you know, I always see that now. But I never want to even use those words here a couple years ago, because I was so like, if I don't say anything, maybe nobody will notice. You know, it was, like, if I would come up with a TV show, I leave the room because I didn't even look at it. You know what I mean? It goes, so that shows you I was hugely unconfident about that in my presence in a room and all that. And yet, in spite of that, even at 15, I was like, yeah, whatever, you know. So I remember a conversation, my friend about this kind of thing at 15, which teenagers are more, you know, smarter than you think they are really resonant and smart to me Even now, right? I don't remember when Jennifer or me that said this, but when we were talking about this, you know, in the conversation, and we were talking about how like, we're insecure, she was like, mean that we were insecure, we know, we're secure in our insecurities, like, you know, whatever. Like, I don't care and in some way, you know what I mean? Like, like, Is it because maybe because of that, you know, thinking people are gonna judge me, whatever. And we see time I'm smart, and strategic and whatever. And that the confidence was inquisitive, confidence, or lack of confidence. And let me say, Oh, I don't care anyway. I'm just gonna do it. You know what I'm saying? Was that super confident? Or was it that I wasn't confident? I figured that they, you know, I wouldn't be accepted or wouldn't be like them, I wouldn't be where I couldn't be the pretty blonde girl, like, you know, anyway, so whatever. So this is what you get. And then I became super confident than that. And that's been everything because like, like, people who knew me back then, when I say, I wasn't confident as a teenager, they're like, oh, if I say I was shy as a teenager, like, you were never shy. I'm like really, Oh, that's interesting. So it's like, I think I always just, you know, whether it was natural to me at the time, or whether it became natural, because now it's super natural born and even, whatever, I don't care, you know, and that is a free and you know, it's funny, I read recently, a 50 Click way after this is my personality in Psychology Today, not long ago, or maybe it was the New Yorker, but it was something and it was it was saying that there was a point you know, like, it's almost like you know, that old What are they used to call people? like they would say they're not neurotic. Eccentric. AGAri Gronich22:49Eccentric. Okay. Right. Well, they only said that about the wealthy people.TLTracy Lamourie22:54I was just gonna say that when you add a certain level, whether it was wealth meal days, or even now I would like now it could be in your socials or your that what? social welfare, the credit, whatever, your that all of a sudden, what looks weird. Oh, like when you walk, when I'm 21 walking, run off the crazy red air, how she thinks she's gonna get hired, you know, whenever a little girl go, what looks weird, then, when you got this credibility behind you and you're able to, even if they don't know that, at that certain point, they start to think, Oh, Jesus, that person who carries them stuff like that with that confidence. But that's like, my husband's got crazy, long curly hair, like a rock star, right? And then I got the bright red. Here we go places where people don't even know about, like, they don't know why the publishers they don't know whenever. And they're looking at us. And we walk in the room. And it's funny, because I guess because it But the interesting thing is we carry ourselves now the following combination of the crazy Look, the red hair and the curly hair. But now that we're 50 and have all this stuff behind us, even if you don't know that we carry ourselves with a confidence that you know, you wouldn't maybe expect from the crazy red haired girl or the guy with the curly hair. Right? So that right there has, I think, happens all the time that we're like, that's so weird. Like, they don't know what we do. They don't know about Hollywood, they don't know. We just literally walk somewhere and like some rubbing be like, Oh, you guys, what do you do? We're like, we have that vibe now. Like, I don't understand. But I think that's what it is. Because we look up. We don't look at the average 50 year olds. So clearly, and we're clearly not bums. So then clearly you're somebody because otherwise why would you just have a suit and tie and look like you know what I mean? So it's a weird, like, backslash.AGAri Gronich24:34I think 60 something years old is the age of I don't give a shit. Right. But I mean, in just in general amongst the crowd, like, they'll, you know, I hear them talking, so to speak, and they're whispering Oh, yeah, I could toot in public now. Oh, yeah. I mean, it's like the age where just Ah, Let it all you know.TLTracy Lamourie25:02Maybe just a confidence thing when you realize no you know what all that was just stupid with me sitting there worrying about everybody. Maybe you finally realize what I tell people what just stop being so stressed out when you walk into the room you think that everybody in the room is thinking about a little Oh, you Well, that's a lot of arrogance and clapping. Am not arrogant. Sure you are! People sure you are you just think that everybody's thinking about you, you know, realize that everybody's roosting with their own crap their own worry their own, you know? And if there's some asshole, and they're just thinking about tearing you down, then that's good to know that you don't want to deal with them. Anyway, that's Thanks for letting me know about you what you like.AGAri Gronich25:35Right. So deconstructing the societal norms is one of the things I wanted to talk to you about. So I don't, I didn't tell you any of this stuff on our pre interview because I wanted you to go. Alright. Okay, so deconstructing social norms, because here's the thing. There's this guy is in your industry way, way, way long before you were. He's called the father of spin, Doctor Bernays. He was the cousin to Freud. And he's the guy who created propaganda. Okay. Yeah, he created propaganda. In general, he was the guy that created mindcom after. And like said, his psychology was his cousin was Freud. And he basically said that people are sheep and there's a select few that know what the people need and then the publicity and advertising industry was born, to tell people what it was that they needed to direct them in to a direction like sheep, right. So that was the father of your industry. As publicist. There's a lot of manipulation of people's societal norms. So I want to know how we can manipulate people societal norms, so that they are fearless in the face of fear so that they act beyond their belief maybe in themselves, like you did. So I just wanted to like, surprise you. It's a little.TLTracy Lamourie27:14No, I think that's true. And I'm glad you mention that, because I always think I always love that kind of PR. I do needs PR. Because it's true when you say PR, even me when I say when you say public relations. Like that's my call my when I rebranded incorporated, my company was called the Maury PR and media, which was originally my PR and marketing when it started with Kimbo marketing. And I was like, oh, what if I don't get that PR club, but I never even did any marketing. So when I was incorporated, I change it to Lemori media, because there was like, Well, you know, I never went public relations. And so you know, and also we're media content creation company, and we're gonna be doing more of that, but also public relations, I think it's a bad fit. Because when you think about it, you think about like, the Spin Doctors., the guy that stand up in front of, you know, for politicians, or whenever, or for a company that's done something wrong, or they you know, had a big bad media thing,AGAri Gronich28:16O you know, the president of secretaries or, you know.TLTracy Lamourie28:21With the language or you know, immediate or like, maybe non various example, click on TV, it would be like a public health campaign, you know, where they need to get much information out to where that is the situation where you're talking about, they specifically want people to act in a certain way. So they're putting up a news, ask, you know, like, what you see with COVID is a perfect example.AGAri Gronich28:46I didn't, I didn't say anything about COVID at all. TLTracy Lamourie28:49And I don't like to go into that either. Because I'm not even I don't have a strong opinion about it, because I like to have a need to please what I know a lot.AGAri Gronich28:55Yeah. And I like having my YouTube channel. TLTracy Lamourie28:58You know, so, no, yeah. And I'm not even going either direction on me personally, I have it. Because, again, in general about the world, I like to know a lot of things before I start spouting off, I like to really be confident, and when it comes to all that I have not coffee, I don't know anything on either side. But just strictly as an example of not what would that would be true, not none of that just like, you know, or let's make up let's not call it COVID. Let's say there's a public health be, you know, a public health emergency. See, everybody's gonna This is gonna happen if people do that, you know, so they want to get into massive information or something like that. Yeah. But what are the what I reinvented for the PR school, I didn't even meet a publicist till recently. I never read a book on PR. I started messaging to get the word out about that one. So to me what I have done in my career, what I call PR with, you know, in the services that I provide for my clients, I don't you know, it's funny because LA clients intimidating fire, their Hollywood publicist, for me on whether to work together like this. You do things that no other publicist does. And I'm not saying that you say I'm better because I invented this in my head, you know what I mean? I didn't go to school and learn with the perimeters of what a publicist does for their client is, to me if your public image, it's always what I would do for myself. I want to get you an award shows I want to get you needy, I want to get your message out there, right. So I call it I do elevating and celebrating some PR, good PR spin day. But actually, that literally came out of me in a podcast, we were having a conversation like this. So podcasting was like I'm really wanted you to know, I normally wouldn't have otherwise gone, because my show is all about the jet. But I really liked your vibe, and I listened. He was just he was saying the same thing. And I was like, but really, it's more about elevating everything. I just talked about that. But that's true. That's what I like people already doing amazing things, whether they're creatives, whether they're entrepreneurs, whether they may not even realize how amazing the things they're doing are and I'm like, why aren't you getting quoted about that? Why are you so literally my job is what I do is I find people writers who deserve to be heard and find ways to get them heard people that aren't looking at and I find ways to break that barrier for them so that they can we can get into media. I wasn't surprised I used to be a punk Ari, but you know, Jello Biafra. You know, from Dead Kennedys? No punk days. Oh, my God. Kennedy's came up twice in this conversation. What's?AGAri Gronich31:26In there all the dead Dead Kennedys, the dead and the Dead Kennedys,TLTracy Lamourie31:30Right in. Jello Biafra said if you don't like the mean, don't hate the media become the media in the 80s. They rave for all this? And I was like, yeah, so I am the media. We are all the media. In some ways. That's the problem these days. Because, you know, some people are just starting off and whenever That's it, but but you know, in through the mainstream media, what I find is that, like, I stay away from that stuff, specifically, because I don't like to work. You know, when I used to be a township, Politico, because I was an optimist. I thought, you know, I'm passionate about something that I thought were gonna change things, I would use my skills for politics, in the days before I was getting paid for stuff. Now, I really don't want you and I won't say never, because maybe somebody will follow me, I will. They'll convince me that they're God's greatest gift to you know, activists, and they really do mean, but I like to stay away from politics, not because people are bad, because the system is so corrupt, there's an even though you know, the best person going into that shitstorm, they're not going to be able to do what they want to do, they're not going to be able to so it's very, I don't want to sell my professional reputation. But I'm an activist, and I came from this, you know what I mean, I didn't come from, like, I want to always, I want the activist that I was in my 20s to always be proud of this corporate chick in my 50s. Like he said, at the beginning that different you know, I even recently I came from that mindset, I still have to convince myself sometimes I get Oh, yeah, it's funny our people we have doesn't mean your evil hate. Because it's true. Like the corporate is always like, you know, Mr. Burns on The Simpsons, or whenever in a dark, it's always you know, that. So as an activist, you think anybody in business, clearly, they're just money oriented. They don't care about all this stuff. It's almost been a revelation continues to be revolutionary, as I am, you know, higher and higher in business, and my circles and wider and wider, more people with money, you're in my circle, and more big people with bigger money and all that. And then I tell my story of podcasters are a huge, huge, you know, corporate business guys. And they're like, almost crying during them as well, if you actually do care, but they weren't listening before. How can they listen? So now I'm like, now I'm at a place. So I learned so much doing this, you know, like, what stuff you said, to the perceptions that were wrong about you what they thought was wrong, but actually what I thought was wrong with people. So really, we are all really confused about each other and our motivations, whether it comes to like, the right and the left and you know, people I think are bad because I'm a hardcore anti race, that would not have been my table and all that. Even though I have to remind myself people are people and they're not always working on the same motivation that we think they're working on to them. It's like you said fear, or misunderstanding or whatever. And if you prefer and break those things down, so that since it is important to break things, into the PR, like, truth, it's communication, people management, for sure. It's contacts, communication, and people management, for sure. But I don't look at it as a fairies. We have not tried to find ways to convince people of things that are true. I do try to find ways to convince to use my words that people can hear what I'm saying. different audiences can understand what I'm saying and hear me without their own barriers going up before they can even hear me,AGAri Gronich34:46Right? No, I guess what I was what I was getting at was not selling you or your profession. What I was saying is totally what I was saying is, is how do we get the profession in general, because a lot of people, obviously they don't trust the media these days. And so how do we get the profession in general? To understand that truth messaging is as powerful if not more powerful than fake media and false messaging? And how do we get the people to understand what the differences are, when we clearly have a complete lack of cognitive dissonance right now, or critical thinking and be able to understand that nation? So, you know, how do we bring people back to a place where they can really, truly know what's real, so that they can act on it so that they can feel like they can do something so that they have the faith and the confidence and all those things that we've been talking about beforehand? Right. Yeah, I'm leaving it all together. How do we bridge those gaps? These are the conversations I at least want to have in general, and have you have with all of your media people, right? How do we do that as a community of media people so that we can really change the industry together.TLTracy Lamourie36:19Out of people think I mean, number one, I mean, you know, honestly, it's you that cognitive dissonance is so true. It's hard, maybe hard for people to do, but you have to really understand like, well, no matter when you hear information, who is giving me this, like, where is this information coming from? Who is giving me this information? And why do they want me to believe it must be someone who benefits from me believing this? You know, like, honestly, I asked him stuff, like when I watch everything, like even if, because something might sound good. If it fits your mindset, if it fits your belief system and fits your whatever, then you're going to want to believe it. Whatever you hear whatever information like that's nasty, but that guy's gonna always question question everything I swear button as, as a little punk rocker. That's a question authority. And I still, you know, say that question everything, question all the information, question the information I give you do it because you should be questioning all information. You know, who benefits from this? Well, you know, Tracy's quiet better than me hearing but then that's not nefarious, or whatever, you know, but ask yourself, Is there you know, who benefits from this? And is there another side to it? Always question your own thinking. Edit your own thinking, make sure to read other stuff. That's the number one way I read everything. I read the right way. I wait. I mean, I'm a lefty, obviously, even though I always say a bird Can't I mean, in terms of I, you know, most of the things that you would line them up with agreement, but not always. I mean, like, I'm not a radical on anything. A bird can't fly with only one wing. You ever noticed there was huge bird tried to fly? So like, really? I'm not a lefty or righty. I like I'm an ideas, girl. I'm tired of all this. Like, what side of you? And I've got ideas? I don't know, let's talk about the specific thing we're talking about. It's all here. Both ideas that maybe well..AGAri Gronich38:09This is part of why I like having you on because I so agree. This is what I talk about so often is critically think each individual issue each individual thing in your life, in your business, in your politics in your community. It's like ask good questionsTLTracy Lamourie38:30Of yourself. Hey, why am I Why do I believe that? Why is it because all my friends say that? Oh, well, you know what? Look, honestly, like I literally read every everything that Sports Illustrated, I read them. Like, there was all the mainstream stuff, right? And I watched whatever. And then I read if I can get my hands on some crazy left-wing stuff on Wait, like, I mean, radical, crazy, right wing stuff. I'll read it. And I'm shaking my head at both. You know, and I you know what I'm saying? So like, I understand that I'm reading what people are saying, I'm hearing, not just the argument of people that think my way. But all that I'm like, Yeah, yeah, like, you know, you don't I'm saying so that way. I'm not not because I think I'm gonna even be convinced. But just if you don't understand the way people are thinking, and this isn't just so that I can do the messaging. This is so that I can be discipline activist me, because he are me developed out of activists, me and we would shouting me and my husband, Dave, which I like men, we were in fact, we've begun back in our 20s. You know, we started a campaign because we were basically worked out we wanted to bring in a union. We didn't know any unions. We weren't radicalism that we just didn't meet them. We were being treated at work. One girl said, Hey, I think you can go to any union. We were like, really? Let's look. Let's look that up. And we looked it up. We made a couple of calls. And then all of a sudden, we were in the Globe and Mail Canada's biggest, you know, financial paper at once. Before this, he said to me before, it's definitely I forget this stuff. At 25, 26 years old, me and my husband and one girl. We unionize the first call center in Canada and that what again We were not like big union activists. We were just doing whatever, you know. So with of always a matter of like, you know, oh yeah, why start bringing that up, we were always really good to be we're not mess, you know, like we were publicists, but uh, 25 years old, we, you know, the company was trying to silence and talk about new needs. So they came in bought everybody pizza one day. So we wrote it literally, we weren't a marketing, but I look back on our really good PR piece. It's what the union will give you more than just pizza. And then it had a whole big thing breakdown. We went with a 99%, both the union, which I wasn't even a part of right. Never seen a vote like that week, because we again, we did the work. We called all of our fellow workers, if you have any questions, call us. We put the time in, we care, you know what I mean? But it was really good. When I look back on it. After 20 years of doing this, I couldn't have done a better campaign now than I did as a dumb as 24 year old activist, because we were just, it was the same thing. It was just messaging to see what the situation was really believing in it right? And say, we're going to tell people and we're going to tell people in a way they can hear it within, you know, and that's what it all is. So, buddy with his 90 the only thing I think the guy that you're talking about, the only thing I admire about him is funny. I read about it in the New Yorker, it was hilarious. They said he was in his 90s I believe it's the same guy because they said he was the father of PR. And they mentioned that he worked for like, Come, you know, countries, right? And they said he was in his 90s he still went to work in his office in New York City, like literally every day, you know, and they would tell him, it's like, it was some crazy thing. Right? And I was reading it going. Yeah. He's a publicist. So that was the only thing. I felt like at a residence there. I was like, yeah, I'll be juniors at 108. But we do. But other than that, yeah. So I don't agree. You know, I, I don't think that's like, I don't believe in STEM. I certainly don't, I did not know that things are mine clump. That's really informative and interesting. Because Yeah, there is definitely a dark side, which is called, you know, that was used to be called dark PR. And I'm sure a lot of you actively do that. And that's what they do with politics and everything where all they're trying to do is dig, you know, that hole, dig up the right key and digging all that stuff up. And I don't want to be part of that.AGAri Gronich0:26Right. And that's literally I guess, what is going on right now, at least in the US. I don't know about how the news looks in other countries at this moment. I know how it looked like in 2004. During the elections, when I was in Greece, I could see the news and the differences between what's being aired on us TV versus Greek TV at the time. But I know in the US this massive thing about fake news, and we just don't really know what is true and what's not true anymore. And all the resources to you know, you Google something, and you get a completely different set of answers. And you do if you Yahoo something? Or if you do something, and it's like, okay, who's pushing which agenda? And is there? Is there any kind of, you know, independent search that doesn't the preconceived algorithm to send you to where they want to send you.TLTracy Lamourie1:28That's interesting, too, because even the more when you search, you know, Google knows your search history too, right? like Facebook, they give you which is so we're getting in this weirder weirder, like the circle for who knows? How can you find like it's getting worse and worse. And in five years public is even worse. Because Where are we hearing only are like those echo chambers, echo chambers, right. And then there's those new social media platforms, people who've been kicked it off the Twitter and Facebook and whatever. And they're super echo chambers, where like, it's only so odd. It's like, it's all it's, all of a sudden, everyone around you is talking about whatever, you know, in a certain way, that starts to seem like your reality. It's a cults work. That's how governments work when you're in a government not even meaning do, but you're in a government. And that's what I call everything in cult, because I understand the way your mind works, I call the political parties that I used to be in a cult, you know, the NDP, which is the lefty lefty party, and I left them because I was like, you know, what, even introduce both of you to one of social and I'm not listening to the roll like this, you know, there's supposed to be the one of social justice bla bla bla, in line with all the people that are like me, you care about this, that the other, when it comes down to it, it is an entity in a party, and it's working inside and out. Part of what it does is Jake just itself, we're activists, we're always on those issues, looking for a partner that's going to help locals political parties aren't ever because they can't be there. Once you get in there. There's all these different other things going on. As people whenever around us sounds good. You know, like, you know, you relate to the people around you, you start to like, so then those other people, they go, Oh, those people are crazy. They don't mean Well, you're not realizing you just see in your little part of the elephant, like those activities seem they're part of the elephant, or the finance people sitting there part, thinking everyone else is crazy. But this within all of it, maybe. But in terms of the media, oh god, I don't even know just so much. The fake news thing is, like this expression, fake news is just so annoying, because I mean, like everything, anybody can call anything that now, no, but at the same time, it's true. Like they're there that that did address originally the you know, propaganda side of news. So yeah, you know, it's a shit show now.AGAri Gronich3:34It's really fun, it's really entertaining, but not if you actually want to know something about what's happening in the world. And I think that was the point is when the deregulation happened, and they started making news for profit. It used to have to be the only it was that had to be not for profit division of a corporation to deliver the news, and then they deregulated it. And they allowed for a 24-hour news cycle that had advertising and all of a sudden, and that's the news. At least as far as Walter Cronkite. I think.TLTracy Lamourie4:15That trusted that's true, and there used to be a clear, like a deli-a-nation like 100% between the editorial and advertorial where like an editor would shoot themselves in the head before they let any advertorial content come like 100% but now that's actually changed even like I'm still shocking even in new in newspapers even were like, and to their great regret. Like I've talked to business press, for example, where they're like, Oh, my God traced, but the editors and financial posters that were there like, that's a great story. I myself have 18 spoolie 18 stories. I'm editor to financial 18 business stories, I want to quit. My business press has been you know, cut from like, six pages 10 pages two to three to two and Half ages One, two, only with one and a half of the editorial content going to people who placed ads, and I was like, Oh my god, and that's in a newspaper, oh my God. And he was like, just telling me this truth. Right? And I was like, because you see some of that, like, I guess the reality of the newsroom now, like economic, you know, crazy. But that's the kind of thing that ruins like that, you know, you used to be like, you come to me for like earned media, there is no like, I don't you pay to play. I don't put quite when you pay me, you don't pay it, I don't come to you later and say, pay to get into this, that's advertised. Right? I find opportunities where you are respected source, and you're quoted as an expert source. And that's why it's valuable. Because it's not advertising because you can't buy your way into that it's me presenting, you know, that's why it's valuable. If they keep doing this is gonna be like, as seen on TV is to have cachet to people, you know, when it was like, bought purchased ad until people figured out Oh, wait, that's just an ad, you know. And now we it still has the cache, like, if you're on the news to TV or whatever, because you're not supposed to be able to buy it. But now they're starting to be that like, that style thing at all.AGAri Gronich6:11Yeah, absolutely. So here's, you know, I like to play with you. In some of those mind things. You said, I know the mind. I know the consciousness. So here, where I like to go. Right? I want to create a new tomorrow, I want to activate people's visions for a better world activate is an active thing that you have to actually actively do. And in my opinion, that is activism. Because you're doing the thing that you're passionate about that is going to move people forward. So that's an activism thing. So creating an active movement, creating people who are actively doing and collaborating with others who are like minded. How do you move the mountain? How do you get people to come along with you? How do you get people who want to be the leader, to step up to be that leader so that they can then bring the people in?TLTracy Lamourie7:13I think is really showing people that you can do it. Like, that's what I think people always tell me that I've inspired them and all that. And I think it just they're looking at that like oh, well, even my daughter when we you know, we met her at 15 sweet adopted, and she was already awesome activist minded, all kinds of you know, but like when she came into our family and saw the newspaper articles on the thing, about, you know, us with the death penalty, and you know, you know, all these, it newspapers all over America, from the bottom of cat, you know, from Canada and our basement, you know, there we have a cover of the Houston Chronicle that like, and she said to me years later, not then because she started doing her own activist if not around the duck, obviously, or other stuff, you know, a lot of Aboriginal rights stuff early on, it was animals now it's, you know, First Nations and stuff. And so she, I remember, she literally said, like, you know, I thought I was always coming back to this mind, but I looked at all this literally, I thought, well, you guys can do that. It just made it really well. Well, cuz it's, true, like, you know, like, seriously, we elevator stuff so much, you know, without it wasn't about us whenever it was about getting the message out that somebody had to be speaking the message, and all of a sudden, were there people look, you know, so like, we never should have been able to do that stuff. But we just didn't think we thought we should be able to. So we did, you know. And so she was inspired by that. So I think people see that it's not that hard. It's hard. But it's not. But anything. It's not nothing is hard. Nothing, maybe brain surgery. I've never done that. That's probably hard. But I mean, other than that, like, most things in life are not hard. If a human can do it, you can do it. If a person can do it, if you can conceive of it, if you can, you know. And if you take that first step, again, you're a lot closer, like a lot of these things. When you know when we say that people think oh, yeah, yeah, but then a million times before, but it's so it's true. Just do it. If you take a step. Now, you're not where you were before, you're one step closer. And then you realized you did that. And then maybe you take one more step, you're gonna get an serotonin boost a little bit of goal, you know, whenever, and you're like, Whoa, yeah, Matt, you know, like, so I'm lucky and like, I don't know what it was a push me on path. And like, I just didn't have fear. And so like you said, the fear, and I did stuff. And every time I did stuff, you know, again, back in those days, it wasn't a money reward at all. Like now it's, you know, money back that we weren't thinking about that way. But I mean, the reward and it wasn't even about ego wasn't about getting the article. It was about a client we were like literally in it to accomplish that thing. Oh, my God, we're in that article, not like a great trick is not an article. How many people read that how people can hear that. I'm gonna give a Jimmy Jimmy like, it was really about that. And when you're actually doing that, that's when you get hurt when you're doing something.AGAri Gronich10:00Right, you know, awesome. Thank you so much for all of that. Is there anything else that you feel like you just need to give to the audience that you you're like aching to share with them?TLTracy Lamourie10:15Well, I usually end on this on a positive note for people who aren't feeling so positive. Because I think we always talk about all these accomplishments and blah, blah, blah, you know, like, looking at people on vacations on the internet. And clicking will feel pretty bad about themselves. But I again, want you to real I want to realize, so there's Jimmy who spent 25 years on death row, he's always saying Never Never give up. Which, you know, for real, but how he got through it. And then even now, when he's out, and we you know, when everyone has trauma, whenever he's talking about stuff, and he's having a bad day, I'll be like, yeah, you know, what, we didn't get this far to only get this far. We just found on Facebook. I saw that on Facebook once. And for him, I'm like, you know, Grammys on the way you already did the hard stuff, you've got those doors open, and no one would have thought do we didn't get that far, it's not, you know, get rest of your dream, this is the easy part for you like to get the Grammy compared to what we've done already, is easy. That's possible. That wasn't, we did that, you know, so that. But, but more even more importantly, for people who like maybe don't,for people who are feeling good about themselves, you can get inspired only get inspired, there's more to go. But really, more importantly, the people who don't feel good about themselves, who are like who feel like they're a loser who feel like they're not winning, who feel like, you know, they just don't feel that they want to jump off a bridge, they feel like everybody's doing that to sell this No, Oh, you didn't get this far to only get this far, you're absolutely a winner if you're listening to this, because this is a hard, shitty, we're hope sometimes great world, I love that. It can be shitty, it can be hard for people, especially if you don't know how to get out of that negative feeling. And everybody has people that are treating them badly. you've all had struggles. But literally, if you got here, you got through all those struggles, you beat all those people who wanted to bring you down and you won. So you're still here. And there's only tomorrow, you know, to do more. So you have to literally realize he didn't get through all that he didn't deal with all those idiots he didn't deal with all that should be feeling this way today, you gotta like, applaud yourself for where you got and keep on going. So that's, I think, super important.AGAri Gronich12:18Yeah, that was one of the things that I thought of earlier in the conversation when you're talking about celebration. And I think that people forget to celebrate their wins, they're definitely ready to experience their failures, you know, emotionally, but celebrating their wins is, and being grateful for that win each time it comes even if it's tiny, tiny, tiny steps, is an amazing thing for people to do to keep moving them forward and feeling good about it. Even in those moments of hardship, right and struggle. I mean, you went through a lot of years of hardship and a struggle on that path to get that person. And I'm sure that part of what you were thinking is nothing that I'm experiencing as much as what he's experiencing, being in that space. And so using that as part of like cross motivation. And I tell people, you're not done until you're dead. You know, you can't fall off the wagon, there is no wagon. If you're not dead, you're not done. Like, literally at any moment in time, choose to do something different. So move, to fly away, to go on a vacation to rest and breathe and not pick up your phone to do any of these things you are more than capable of because you're a human being. And so I really appreciate you being on and sharing your story, your wisdom, all of the things that got you to a place. And I hope that this that the audience listening really gets that they can do something to activate their vision for a better world and create a new tomorrow today. And it doesn't take a whole lot. It's just one step at a time. So thank you so much for being here. And this has been another episode of create a new tomorrow. I'm your host Ari Gronich. Thank you so much for listening, and we'll see you next time.  

Embrace The Intuitive Energy Healing Powers All Around Us with Peyton Goldberg The intuitive healing energy that constantly flows around us is absolutely amazing. Breathing, really intentional breathing is also a powerful influence on our bodies, minds, emotions, and souls. The arts of Reiki and Yoga take advantage of many natural ancient healing sources of energy and breathing. The practices have been around many years and proved themselves over time. About Peyton Peyton Goldberg is a Reiki Master/Master Teacher, a Professional Member of the International Center for Reiki Training, a Texas State Licensed Massage Therapist and a 500+ hr registered yoga teacher.  Peyton works with the subtle human energy fields and pathways to aid her clients in their innate ability to heal on the physical, mental, emotional and spiritual levels. In addition to her Reiki and intuitive energy work offerings, Peyton provides holistic bodywork and meridian-based therapies including massage, cupping, acupressure and Auriculotherapy. When she's not working one-on-one with clients, Peyton is teaching (and practicing) yoga locally at The Studio in Fort Worth.  Connect with Peyton: www.oversoulfw.com peyton@oversoulfw.com IG: @oversoul.fw  www.feedingfatty.com   Full Transcript Below Embrace The Intuitive Energy Healing Powers All Around Us with Peyton Goldberg Tue, 6/29 6:10PM • 53:07 SUMMARY KEYWORDS reiki, people, energy, work, feel, yoga, day, started, reiki energy, practice, peyton, breathing, bit, body, reiki master, intuitive, mind, hands, training, clients SPEAKERS Terry, Peyton, Roy Barker   Roy Barker  00:08 Hello, and welcome to another episode of Feeding Fatty. This is Roy,   Terry  00:11 this is Terry.   Roy Barker  00:12 We are the podcast that's chronicling our journey through wellness. And, you know, as we talk a little bit about when we first started, we were kind of focused on diet, not a diet, but more or less what we're eating, exercise and just total balance with a lot of things. But we know we've really moved into the mindset realm because we've I think we found that no matter what route you seem to want to go, if you don't get your mindset, right, it's not going to be sustainable, and you probably won't have much success, you know, in the long run. So anyway, you know, on Tuesdays, we have our guests professionals in the field and then on Thursday, we have our little catch up with what's going on with us and we've kind of had a diabetic or diabetes focused the last few weeks just trying to struggle with that. So we're just trying to put some information out there not only get me back on track, but to help others as well. So but today, we have an awesome guest with us and Carrie I'm gonna let you introduce Payton,   Terry  01:15 Peyton Goldberg. She works with the subtle human energy fields and pathways to aid her clients in their innate ability to heal on the physical, mental, emotional and spiritual levels. In addition to her Reiki and intuitive energy work offerings, Peyton provides holistic bodywork and meridian based therapies including massage, cupping, acupressure, and ayurveda. feel you're gonna have to say that one. Therapy when she's not working one on one with clients payment is teaching and practicing yoga. locally at the studio in Fort Worth. She is a Reiki Master Master Teacher, a professional member of International Center for Reiki training, a Texas state licensed massage therapist and has 500 plus hours of registered yoga teacher teaching. Peyton, welcome to the show. We're happy to have you today. Thank you. I'm happy to be here.   Roy Barker  02:16 Yeah, we have a little bit of personal experience. Terry, I'll let you explain all.   Terry  02:21 I have known Peyton, she she and my daughter went to high school and graduated together. And they were they were two peas in a pod. And so I know her many ways. This, this is so cool to see where you have evolved to and how you got there. So let's talk a little bit about that. And how you found yourself in this position of training, Reiki and doing yoga and all that.   Peyton  02:58 Yeah, so it was kind of a roundabout path to get here. If you ask me 20 years ago, if I'd be doing this, I probably not believe you but me Are you about to say I'm sure you like yes. But how really all this came into my life. I mean, even as a child, I think I was always very interested in things that I deemed as magical. And you know, this may be the closest thing to magic we have in real life. And so, I was always interested in the far out and the esoteric and just, you know, the big questions of life, like why are we here? How does everything work and whatnot. And I think some of that curiosity had made me more open minded for the path that eventually came. But when I was in college, and just randomly out of nowhere, going into my sophomore year, I was super depressed, it came out of nowhere. just miserable kind of lost any will to live just very soon as suicidal, so anxious that I can barely leave my apartment. I was just really really miserable self medicating with drugs, alcohol, food, you name it. Just really truly my rock bottom I was prescribed a plethora of medications and kind of kind of went through the wringer with Western medicine and pharmaceutical culture. And just here's a pill for this. Here's a pill for that. And a symptom came with a pill. Here's another one and I was just a zombie for probably three years and just completely numb. My mom was super concerned and had I been closer to home. I went to school in Mississippi, she probably would have been a lot more concerned but that space probably didn't make it exactly as real as it was. But she was desperate looking for alternative ways to help me. She kind of stumbled upon upon Reiki energy medicine, vibrational medicine, law of attraction, all that kind of stuff and something clicked on. And I was able to just start utilizing these tools in my life then and it's just evolved from there. But I've been able to, you know, come off of all medications and get myself in a good place. Yeah, just a complete one at truly. And now I started offering it to other people, because if I could do it, anybody can,   Terry  05:23 you know, go ahead.   Roy Barker  05:25 No, I just said, that's, that's a great story. And I think that, you know, coming from a place of using it in the help that it gave you, then I think that even probably makes you a much better practitioner when you're trying to help other people.   Peyton  05:39 Yeah, I can really empathize. I've been there. I mean, I've felt horrible. And I know what it's like to feel that way. Yeah.   Terry  05:46 Yeah. And and have drugs thrown at you. I mean, I think so many people find themselves in that situation. And it's like, Okay, well, that one didn't work. Let me have another one. Well, that one doesn't work. Well, maybe you're you've got anxiety, maybe you know, all these other symptoms, from taking the medications come up. And it's just right. It's crazy. Totally.   Peyton  06:07 You know, not to say that medicine is not necessary in all cases, but there are just so many tools we have at our disposal to feel better without just masking symptoms. So to say.   Terry  06:20 Yeah, and, I mean, finding the root cause 100% and really going to help you become, you know, as close to 100% as you can possibly get. So true.   Roy Barker  06:33 No, and what I was going to be clear about here is that we we did not do the yoga or the other but we went through the   Terry  06:42 say at the Reiki Oh, no. I like when he says, Yeah, I want to hear it. Come on, Roy.   Roy Barker  06:50 Yo, yo, yo,   Peyton  06:51 said, how you say that? Okay, I hear people say it all different ways.   Roy Barker  06:56 She just laughs at me every time I have to say I love it. Like   Terry  07:00 he said the Ricky. I'm like,   07:03 I forgot about her. But Ricky so I guess if you don't mind?   Roy Barker  07:07 Can we just start kind of at the beginning to maybe. Cuz I mean, I'm I feel like I'm pretty progressive, but I've never heard of this before. And so maybe we could just kind of explain what the concept is to those that may not know what it is.   Peyton  07:25 Sure, absolutely. So Reiki is a light touch hands on energy healing technique originated in Japan. But a lot of people believe you know, this kind of laying on it while it did laying on hands energy work, you know, way predates any, or the Reiki system of healing, essentially. But basically, it works by getting the body into a parasympathetic state, which is the branch of our nervous system, which is our rest digest, where we can truly heal you know, the body is an incredible machine and given the right environment, we can heal ourselves. I truly believe that we are yet to tap into our full potential as humans and there's a lot we can do to heal on all levels, physical, mental, spiritual, and otherwise, basically, you know, we are all energetic beings, we are electric beings. And the energy is generated by the hands of the person attuned to Reiki and it gives off, I have articles of science behind it giving off the electric energy, electromagnetic energy, which a lot of Western medicine devices rely on now, for regenerating bones bringing organs up to healthy basically their their ideal healthy vibration, same idea with the hands of the energy healers. The hands create the vibration and through physical property or principles of resonance entrainment, it can bring the lower vibration or off energy up to an energy that is more primed for healing or the ideal vibration. So to say,   Terry  09:10 no, oh, go ahead.   Peyton  09:12 Oh, no, as I say, that's just my Reiki in a nutshell. But there's, there's a lot that will still learn a lot of people feel like, Oh, it's a placebo effect. But now we're starting to see more and more research that that's not the case, there is a measurable energy coming from the hands. And, you know, it's really neat. And I think we'll be seeing more and more of that as we move into the future.   Terry  09:36 So, so I know that you've had tons of training and everything, but also also has intuition has to do with it. I mean, do you feel like people are kind of chosen to do that to succeed at this energy? And   Peyton  09:53 yes, and no, I mean, intuition is definitely important when I'm working one on one with clients, but we're For everybody, even if you have no interest in working with clients or, you know, working one on one with people, I truly believe that this is a skill that everyone can't Well, they can for 100% learn it. And they should it's, you can use it. You know, when you're cooking, when you're reading, driving and traffic, calming anxiety. I mean, the list goes on and on and on, you can give it to your pets, your family yourself. Yeah, so if you I think being intuitive, and empathetic sure, that helps build rapport and, you know, can kind of feel what your client is feeling. And that's helpful. But outside of the practitioner level, it's for everybody, and everybody can be successful with it.   Terry  10:47 So can so can you walk us through what somebody would mean, if they came to you for a session? What just kind of a little bare bones of what's going on?   Peyton  10:59 Yeah, so every Reiki practitioner has their own different flair. And I think that's what's so cool about it. But typically, how a session would start with me is what have you come in and let you share with me what you want to share. If you some people come for a specific issue, you know, stress or physical ailment or an injury, we're trying to, you know, speed up the healing time on, but some people just come, you know, as we are energetic beings, and a lot of us are empathetic and spongy, you can feel when your energy is off, or when you're ungrounded. And just kind of, I call it an energetic tune up. So I'll check in and see what is going on what your goal is. And then after we chat a little bit, I'll get you on the table. It's fully closed. It's not a massage, a lot of people believe it or get confused and think it is massage. But it's not, it's just a gentle laying on of hands or hovering of hands, some gentle movements over the body. And it starts, I always like to start with three deep breaths, I'm a yoga teacher. So breath is important to me, helps get people in the zone, as long as there's no allergies, I like to use some essential oils, aromatically, just to kind of get the body into that state, and then starting at the head, eventually moving down to the feet. I'll start by scanning the body kind of feeling, feeling what I feel, essentially. And then I take an intuitive approach. So there are some Reiki practitioners who use the traditional hand sets, which you know, have been taught to anybody who studied Reiki but my Reiki Master, who taught me really encouraged us to use intuition and just kind of go, we're guided, so gentle, laying on of hands, and, and then I'll finish off at the feet, sometimes in Palo Santo, or instance, at the end. And then I like to use crystals and play with tuning forks. So there's a lot of things I incorporate just as, as guided basis. Go ahead.   Roy Barker  12:57 No, I'm just gonna say, you know, I'm gonna probably be a little vulnerable and share my experience, because it was fascinating to me, a couple, I mean, a lot of, you can kind of walk through it. But the first thing, while I love the incense and the music, and so we've started incorporating the music into our meditation time, which to me is very important. And I just, I don't know, there's something about the music that just really takes you away and lets you concentrate on nothing, you know, concentrate on yourself, your breathing, but I love that. So you started at my head, and you and my eyes were closed. So you can kind of guide me if I was wrong, but it's like you held an open palm over my forehead. Yep. And I will tell you the heat that came from that was not and I have to go back and let's let's kind of set the stage is that that Tuesday, I came on a Thursday night, the Tuesday prior to that I had a pretty rough day. Thursday, I had, you know, kind of like the Tuesday was the one two punch. And then Thursday was like the knockout. And I was just like, I mean, I was in such a place. And I'm like, I don't, you know, don't even really want to go, but I knew that I probably needed to go now more than ever. So I'll just say it was a bad couple of days. And anyway, the heat. I was just amazed at that. How I could feel it. I don't know. Could you feel it as much as I did?   Peyton  14:26 Oh, yeah. Reiki hands get really hot. A lot of people are surprised by that. But you know, heat is just a form of energy. And so sometimes it's hotter than others. Some parts of the body are hotter than others. So every time is a little bit different, but that is very normal. Yes.   Roy Barker  14:43 So then the other thing that was surprising is when you started working around me. I've had shoulder issues for you know, probably about the last 10 or 15 years. And, you know, some days hurts more than others. But it's funny because you went right to that show. holder, very first thing, which I just thought, you know, that was just a good example, I guess of the intuitiveness or however that you, you know, kind of work around that. Now, I don't know if that is that something that you could feel? Or were you just kind of led to go that direction?   Peyton  15:19 Sometimes it's both the information kind of just comes how it comes for a long time, I doubted that and we'd be like, I'm sure if it's just my mind. But time and time again, I have people tell me similar things to you that, Oh, well, you went to that knee and you know, that knees been bothering me or something like that. And yeah, so I don't really know how it comes through. Occasionally, I can feel it on my body. But most of the time, it's just like this. Like, what I consider a download of just knowing. And I think it's God telling me where to go personally. But everybody probably feels a little different. Who's a practitioner?   Roy Barker  15:57 Yeah. So the The other thing, I think, probably the biggest awakening from this to me was, you know, of course, I'd had this by a day. And at some point, I don't even remember at what point during this process, I mean, almost went into like, a catatonic state. I wasn't, I felt like you know, how you do when you're going to sleep. But you're still a little bit conscious of everything. But yet you're, you know, you're kind of having these weird dreams and weird thoughts. And so, you know, that's where I went to. And then it was like, all this energy rushed up from my legs in my stomach up into my chest. And it was like, my chest swelled up. And then, man, I remember it vividly. It was like, three words that kept coming to me were strength, wisdom, and patience, which is exactly what I needed at that point. But it was very, it was a kind of a surreal experience. When that all that started happening.   Peyton  17:01 Yeah, I remember you sharing about your experience. And it's always cool to hear about what comes up for people. What you described, I like to refer to as the Reiki coma, which, you know, maybe it's not the best, that's just what I call it, because that's what it feels like, even if you're having thoughts. The body is so relaxed. And yeah, it's just really interesting. And that's that parasympathetic shifts that that inner that this energy, this universal, lifeforce energy helps people get into and when you're in that state and kind of receptive, that's when those downloads of information that your higher self, I believe wants you to hear can be heard.   Roy Barker  17:42 Yeah. It's funny that the whole chest swelling, I took that to be like, confidence, like, you know, stand up, be strong, be firm. Just funny how it all work together.   Terry  17:55 I remember you came home and said, Oh, my God, I just felt like Superman. I just yeah. Yeah, yep. Right there.   Roy Barker  18:02 Yeah, exactly. And, you know, some of that, I think, is the strength part, too, you know, don't be the I took it like this, don't be a wilting flower is tough, but you got to stand up and be firm. And you know, you can still be empathetic and be nice, and be firm and stand up for yourself as well. And that's kind of where it took me through that. And then, but anyway, so that was all really awesome. And then I think the last thing that you talked about was intent. I can't remember which way it goes. If you were pulling energy down into my legs are pushing it up, but it was something about something about that.   Peyton  18:42 Yeah, I would have to go back and look at my notes from this session. But a lot of times, people either one way or the other, spend a lot more energy in the upper chakras. And if that's the case, and we pull some of the energy down and just ground them. Reiki can get you into that floaty state. So I always like to end with grounding. So if I had to bet I thought we were kind of pulling some of that energy down just kind of anchoring you back into the physical here and now space because it can be a little floaty. Yeah.   Terry  19:13 Do you remember which, Roy, do you remember which chakra he said that?   Roy Barker  19:19 Well, now that she mentioned it, I think that's what the deal was. I think I had everything up in my chest and stomach and I think she was pulling it down for the grounding but also something about the maybe the legs and traveling on a trip but just you know, the movement.   Peyton  19:35 I felt like I feel like I'm remembering something about your knees. Now granted, this was a little bit ago. So you know, memories not the best but I feel I definitely remember something with your legs. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, cuz   Terry  19:48 I remember when I remember when I came back, the throat chakra Of course. That's That's the one. explain about that. Yeah. So they're just the throat chakra shoppers in general, well, maybe just kind of the throat chakra, for sure. And then maybe just kind of a general, that's where you   Peyton  20:11 just like the highlight reel of what chakras are basically their energy centers of the body. Typically, when people reference them, they're talking about the seven major chakras that are aligned up from the base of the spine to the crown of the head. But there are also many other chakras, minor ones throughout the body and off the body in the auric. Field, the throat one in particular, it has a lot to do with boundaries, self expression, creativity, speaking our truth, speaking our true feelings and our emotions. So it's related to a lot of that kind of stuff. But you know, no, shocker is an island they are all interconnected. And yeah, so in the end, they ebb and flow. So if you have throat issues, that doesn't mean that the throats always gonna have stagnation or blockages. Energy is always moving. And same with same with us as energy beings. Right?   Terry  21:15 Oh, man. You know, I was going to ask you, have you opened this might digress a little bit. But at so can you recall, what was the strangest session that you've ever been involved in? Oh, gosh. I mean, just you in general, or with a client?   Peyton  21:36 Well, I've had some crazy energy work experiences me as the client and person on the table, which were pretty astounding, some people's intuitive skills are just incredible. I've a healer that I had gone to in the past. She's a very strong, medium, and psychic. And some of the things she could pick up on were incredible. This was right after my great grandmother died probably five or six years ago, and she was able to send her in the room with me. And that was pretty cool. I don't I mean, I guess I haven't had anything too weird happen. So I guess, you know, some people's experiences are weirder than others. But weird is subjective. And I just say that, for lack of a better word. They're all good. I mean, not weird in a bad way. But just you know. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I guess the level that I feel on my body when I'm working on certain people is interesting. Sometimes Sometimes I'll get so hot that like, my back is sweating, I get a sweat moustache, I can feel like the crown of my head just dripping. And usually That to me is indicative of this is some energy that we need to clear. And put that up. I mean, how do you take all of that from what you know from a session and not put it in, you do it on yourself. That's the beautiful thing about Reiki energy is it can do no harm. So there's tons of different forms of energy work. But energy or Reiki comes straight from God. So it's not my energy, I'm not channeling my own energy. And I'm just simply opening up and letting this energy flow through me into the person plants or thing I'm working on. And so No, I do not absorb anything. And I don't have to even really do much to you know, make sure that doesn't happen, of course, I mean, I wear some crystals on me. And I do give myself Reiki and I always ground myself and clear my energy after a session. But that's what sets Reiki apart from other styles of energy work, because it is not my energy, I am just a channel for it. That's, that's the beauty of Reiki, when people are working from their own energy, that's when things can get complicated and pick up things you don't want and vice versa. Have that exchange, you know, passing the practice practitioner stuff on to a client as well.   Roy Barker  24:08 Yeah, I was just interested. I mean, you kind of mentioned that you get a little bit hot and sweaty sometimes, but what are other feelings that you get, you know, when you're working on an end? Do you go into that? That Reiki coma as well? Or do you stay and that sounds kind of odd to be like that, I don't know if you can go into that.   Peyton  24:31 Yeah, I'm definitely in a very meditative state. So and the cool thing about giving Reiki is you get it while you give it so even times like you described me were like, I kind of don't want to go to the session. Even if I feel that way after I'm like, oh, man, I feel so much better. So I give his or I receive as I give. I feel oftentimes I feel tingling. I feel kind of buzzing pulsation, I always get this weird sensation in one of my bottom teeth. Like, it's really weird and I don't know what it means I have no I literally have no idea but sometimes when the Reiki is really flowing, I get this sensation in my second tooth over. And it's it's strange.   Terry  25:14 That's strange.   Peyton  25:15 Yeah, I know. I wish someone could tell me more about that. Because I'm not so sure. But um, that's, that's a weird thing I feel sometimes. And then I see I see things, I see colors. I see colors most often working on different parts of the body. And that's become kind of common for me, but heat tingles, pulsation, and then that to thing are some of my most common sensations.   Roy Barker  25:46 Do you? Do you keep your eyes open? Or do you close your eyes?   Peyton  25:50 I'm close, probably 90% of the time. When I'm transitioning to a new body part I opened my eyes that I'm less distracted and can stay in the zone better with my eyes, for sure.   Roy Barker  26:03 Because like me, you know, my first time and I think you have to the one thing I guess I would preface all of this by saying is you have to go with an open mind. Because for sure, I'm assuming that if all you're going to do is prove somebody wrong, you will be able to prove them wrong because you are, you know, found the person is in control with their mind. So you have in like myself, I went in with a very open mind. But when once I got on the table, I just close my eyes and really tried to focus on breathing. So I was kind of meditative state. Not only calming down from the day, from the day, but also put myself in a better place to, I guess help you help me.   Peyton  26:49 Right in I tell you I even people that are super, super skeptical after having a Reiki experience, like they get it afterward. Like it took my dad five years of begging him to try it like giving him giving him sessions for his birthday and Father's Day and Christmas and every single opportunity and he's very, like, type a logical very, like I need proof. But anyway, now he sees me almost every month for a Reiki session. So I granted most people that come and see me are pretty open minded. I don't if you're if you find me you you're probably a little more spiritual minded. But yeah, even people in my experience who have been rather skeptical, like once they feel it, they get it.   Roy Barker  27:44 So what do you feel like afterwards because when I came home, I was just totally drained. I had no energy. And it wasn't a bad thing. But it was like my mind. My mind had been cleared and reset. And then of course, I just felt that little draining feeling in my body as well.   Peyton  28:02 Right? People feel a number of different ways, kind of depending on what got cleared what needed to happen in the session. Some people feel like amped up and feel kind of riding high on the Reiki waves and then some people also feel really tired, lethargic, really thirsty energy word can be sneaky dehydrating. So it's always good to really rehydrate. I always feel pretty good. I mean, at the end of the day, if I have a bunch of Reiki sessions, I'll be tired for sure. But it gets me lifted. It feels. Yeah, I love working with it. Now massage, on the other hand makes me pretty tired. But   Terry  28:43 like that, I mean, I felt like I had just had a massage but not mean I didn't want to go to sleep. But I right. I felt very relaxed and very rested.   Peyton  28:54 Yes, you're just kind of in a very peaceful state. Most people are when they leave for sure. Yeah.   Roy Barker  29:01 The other thing for people that may not live worse, if they live in the Fort Worth Dallas area, they need to check anybody else out, they just need to come see you. Let's just say if somebody is living somewhere else, how how would you choose the right person? Because it's kind of I guess there's got to be some kind of connection as well. Correct?   Peyton  29:23 Yeah, I think that that's really important. For any like one on one connection, whether you're working with a doctor, chiropractor, whatever it is, you want to feel an energetic resonance with that person. So a lot of time, you know, hopefully you can get a referral from someone but if not, it may just be a little trial and trial and error going in meeting with them and it's always good to see if they'd be willing to like chat with you before the session just so you can get a feel. Because Yeah, I definitely think that's important.   Terry  29:57 I'm sorry, yeah, and uranium are they looking for Yeah, so   Peyton  30:01 I mean, there are so many different Reiki schools, lineages, traditions. So I would make sure that someone actually is certified because Reiki is not something you can learn out of a book or learn on YouTube. You can, you know, repeat the steps, but you're not getting plugged into that same true energy and you're falling more in the category of self energy work versus channeling that Reiki energy. So you want to have trained from a real Reiki Master Teacher, you want to have someone who has received the attunements. And how I explained the attunements. It's basically like, think of yourself as a radio. And sure, you can get white noise, you can get that static. But once you turn the dial and land on a station, that's when the good stuff comes through. So kind of the same with Reiki, when you go through your training, you are given a two minutes basically connecting you with Reiki energy for life. And once you're dialed in, you can channel that directly without any ego or you know, personal stuff getting in the mix, if that makes sense. Yeah, so those are things those are things I would look for the International Center of Reiki training website. ict.org, is where I found my Reiki Master back in the day, because I wanted something that was vetted, and I wanted to make sure I was learning from someone who knew what they what they were doing, for sure. But there's, there's that's not the only one. So I mean, just a little research due diligence, make sure they have credentials, and yeah, and then just your vibe, I mean, you want to make sure you can connect with somebody. So chat with them go see, um, you know,   Terry  31:54 yeah,   Roy Barker  31:55 I think Terry talked a little bit about this, but this more in depth. So even if there's somebody that says, I really am into I'm a, I guess I'm I enjoy getting the Reiki. And so now I want to be one I want to help others. But is there kind of like a, the intuitive part like some people just have it and then some people can work and work and work and never get dialed in? Or is it something that with practice, you can finally get yourself there?   Peyton  32:26 I think everybody is innately very, very intuitive, and connected with an inner knowing is just through all of our conditioning and you know, brainwashing through society. And you know, the education system. Don't get me started. But, you know, I think we've become out of touch with that. And I think that there's a lot of agendas that have, you know, separated us from this innate knowing connection with source connection with our higher selves. But I do believe everybody is intuitive. People just don't realize they are. But yeah, like everything it's a practice is just, the more you use Reiki, the more it gets, works on you and through you, the more your energy shifts, he I mean, you will, for me, it was just the most transformational thing to invite into my life. I from where I was, when I first did my first Reiki class, to where I am now I just don't even recognize that person. So I think you do. The more you connect with that energy, the more you you'll see changes for sure. So I do think intuition can be developed deeper, but it's always there if that makes sense. Yeah,   Roy Barker  33:37 yeah. You can kind of it's all its underlying. Use it for good. Yes. Yes, definitely.   Terry  33:45 Peyton How many? How many years? Have you been doing it? Um,   Peyton  33:50 so yeah, I've been doing working with people one on one since 2017. And then I've been doing it full time since last year. I always kind of just did it kind of had like a day job and did Reiki on the side. Along with teaching. I always taught yoga too. But yeah, so for four or five going on for five years now. Yeah. And then I started teaching teaching Reiki this last year. So that's a newer endeavor, but I knew from my first Reiki level one training that I took as a student, I knew that was something I wanted to do at some point because the world needs more Reiki practitioners.   Terry  34:36 Have you gone or have you gone to get training?   Peyton  34:40 So the woman I trained under my Reiki Master, her name is Karen Harrison, and she's based out of Missouri, Kansas City, and she travels around to some of the neighboring states. I think she does trainings in Texas, maybe Arkansas and a couple other ones and Anyway, she she was coming to Dallas and I found her and looked at her website and even just looking through someone's website, you can kind of tell if there is a resonance, you know, like, you know, anyways, I felt I felt good about her and I just took that leap. And I trained with her all the way through level one level two advanced Reiki training Reiki Master. Yep. So she I always caught her when she came through to Dallas.   Roy Barker  35:24 Is it a group training or individual one on one?   Peyton  35:27 Yeah, so you can catch them both ways. Some teachers offer one on ones. But most of time, it's in small groups. Usually the groups aren't anything crazy big. Because you know, as the teacher, you want to be able to give everybody good attention and answer all the questions. And when the group is too big, it's kind of hard to make it a special experience for everybody.   Terry  35:48 And how did how, how did lockdown affect you? Because, you know, it's a hands on thing. So how do it through? Through? Oh,   Peyton  35:57 yeah, well, you can do energy work distant, you know, energy transcends time and space. So when you look at quantum entanglement, you know, we are all interconnected on the most basic levels. So energy can get anywhere very quickly. And a lot of that through intention. So, distance is a thing. I never stopped. I could, I felt that it was really important to continue seeing people then more than ever, and I, I wasn't particularly afraid. I felt protected. I felt, I felt that it was part of my purpose to continue seeing people and helping them through this time. Because as you know, we all know, mentally, physically, emotionally, this was heavy in, in my mind, this was the most important time to keep up with yourself in those in those realms. Yeah, if we had, unless you have anything else, Terry, can we transition to yoga for just a minute?   Terry  36:58 Yeah, of course. Yeah. I love yoga.   Roy Barker  37:02 No, I just, you know, I think that, to me, I think all this is related. And I think yoga, but I'm assuming I got I'll put this as a question that it's a pretty good sister to the Reiki. Is that correct?   Peyton  37:15 Oh, yes. 100%. Um, I actually did my yoga training, because I wrote my first teacher training because I thought it would be a good tool to use with my Reiki clients, I wanted to be able to give them some physical movements and postures to help the flow of energy. Because Yoga is just an excellent tool, the mind and body are so intrinsically connected in, we have lost that connection. And there's so much wisdom from the body. And when we can reestablish and rewire to really feel again. Yeah, and yoga is one of the most successful ways to start that rewiring.   Roy Barker  37:59 The one thing that I've done it a little bit off and on over the years, but the one thing I kind of get out of it is the breathing. And I don't know that we know that. The layman understands how important breathing is to us. For you know, stress for a lot of things, you know, make, you know, when you get put in that position, you know, there's some but some people say like, step back, take three deep breaths. And then there's people like me that are very shallow breathers, typically, and I mean, to the point of other people have noticed, and you know, I've told this a few times, I used to be in a martial arts and, you know, I would have my Sensei, he, when he would be walking by, he'd be like, take a breath. It's alright, fall out here. And it's also happened in a painting class, you know, the lady was doing her thing. And I guess I was all I wasn't tense, but just concentrating and not breathing. And so anyway, after a couple instances like that, I hung on sign over my desk. And that was one thing I wrote on it was breathe. And people would always laugh and say, you got to tell yourself to breathe. No, but to deep those deep breaths that help us   Peyton  39:09 to breathe correctly. And that's the thing you know, probably I would say, 98% of people day today, do not breathe correctly, whether it's shallow or through the mouth, or whatever the problem may be. We're just swallowing air essentially. breath is so important, because breath regulates all the systems of the body. It's our major form of detoxification. Really, it is the key to everything when you can breathe properly. I personally believe very little disease can exist. Yeah, and pranayama or breath work is an ancient practice. You know, cultures, from the beginning of time have been practicing different breathing tricks, techniques, navy seals, practice it to stay calm. So there really is something to it, and yeah, it's been one of the best things for me personally to have the yoga practice because I was very asthmatic growing up, I had a chronic pneumonia. You were hospitalized for it, you know, more times than I can count on a hand. And ever since I really started practicing yoga, no issues with that anymore. No anxiety, or I mean occasionally, like with situational things, like the first day of doing something, whatever, a little jitter. But night and day, it just so much healing came from just learning to breathe better. And being mindful of it. I mean, we're not going to breathe perfect all the time that you catch it kind of like your sign. So that's, that's important.   Roy Barker  40:41 Yeah. And just a message to those that feel, you know, sometimes we see people on TV that do yoga, and they do the crazy stuff. And we're like, oh, my gosh, I could never do stuff. But you know, I think the message and I'll let you expound on it is that there are modifications to all movies. And so there is something for everybody in the yoga realm.   Peyton  41:05 True. And I mean, more than anything else, people people do associate, you know, the Instagram yoga aesthetic, like someone has a foot over here behind their head or whatever. And, you know, that's cool. It's, you know, mind body connection. And there's nothing wrong with that. There's nothing wrong with doing handstands or anything. But truly Yoga is paying attention in breathing. And there's a whole I mean, true, like yoga is more of a practice of a lifestyle. You know, I can recommend several good books about the yamas and niyamas. And, yeah, it's really just adopting a lifestyle, all the kind of postures came later on, and that a lot of that has become very westernized. But true yoga, I always tell new students because it is intimidating coming to a yoga class. I was too. I was an at home Yogi for a long time. I was scared to go to a class. But if you were paying attention in trying your best to you know, just notice breathing, and breathe a little slower, a little more purposeful. You are doing amazing yoga. That's the most important thing to remember. Even if you can't get out of a chair or bend over. It doesn't matter who you you can still do amazing yoga.   Terry  42:19 Yeah. And I felt I mean, that's that's kind of meat. You were just speaking to me because I stayed away from it thinking that I couldn't do everything due to contortionist moves or whatever. And totally, you know, you can't just put something into a box and not go go there. And you've got to be curious. You have to be curious. You can do it. Anybody can do it. I said that you're gonna hold me to it. Yeah,   Peyton  42:43 I know I am. I'm gonna make you come. But that's the thing too. And you also just got to find a studio that really vibes with you. Not all studios are the same. And you'll find the one that resonates with you teaching style that resonates with you. And yeah, I think sometimes you just gotta gotta shop around and experience some, but I will say the studio it job, which is called the studio, it's here in Fort Worth, not far from kind of main South Side area, it's over on Jennings. We are all very mindful teachers and try to accommodate everyone. We offer modifications, we often tell people, you know, feel free to ignore us, we really are big advocates of you listening to your body and doing what serves you because at the end of the day, we all may be in the same ish shape, but it is a completely different feeling and experience. So you know, that's it. And we were all really big proponents of that.   Roy Barker  43:39 I think the other thing is that yoga people are using very chill and encouraging that you got to remember, you're not going to middle school gym where you're gonna be taunted or made fun of or, you know, get away or anything like that.   Terry  43:55 Yeah. Yeah, give you   Peyton  44:00 know, um, and I totally get that no, everybody, I it was my biggest fear going to studio that like, oh, people are gonna be watching me and I'm gonna be messing up. But as soon as you go to one class, you realize no one is paying attention to you. Everybody is in the zone on their mat. And that is one of my favorite things about going to the practice. It's just an hour for me, I can just tune out of my day, whatever kind of day I had drop into my body, my sensations, my breath, and not think about anything for an hour.   Roy Barker  44:32 Yeah. And then, I think kind of going hand in hand with this. And I know we're running a little bit long. But the meditation and again, there's things that we can do and I guess we started meditating in conjunction with this, but you know, you see the, the statues and the kind of caricature is on the cartoons about the people you know, they sit and hold their hands out like this. Which when I first started, you know, I was like, I'm not doing the stereotype, I'm just, you know, you're gonna soak it all in. But it's, it's strange because right around them. When I came to see you, I think it was a little after that I started doing that, because I actually felt like it was a way to receive, you know, good, the good energy is to bring that in and kind of like, I hate to say but like a, like an antenna where you can capture that.   Peyton  45:29 Totally, I mean, the different hand motions are called mudras. And they are a part of, you know, ancient yogic teachings. And that is exactly what they are. They're supposed to align you with different energies, whether it's something invigorating, something calming, you know, different elements, what have you. But yeah, I think the most important thing for people to remember with meditation is that you can't turn the mind off, the mind thinks like the heartbeats. The point is not to clear your mind. The point is to not follow those thoughts down the rabbit hole. So I had a teacher tell me once before that, even if you have to bring yourself back into the present moment, a million times, just do that compassionately. That is what it's about, it's not about, you know, or even just like, a minute of mindfulness sitting there can be more profound than 30 minutes, you know, it doesn't have to be this laboris thing that kind of is a pain in the ass to even want to take on, you know, yeah, many, many moments of mindfulness,   Roy Barker  46:32 I typically do about 10 minutes, which is easy. You know, I was having this discussion with a guy the other day. And he was just saying, like, I can't get my mind to stop. And I'm like, but that's the point is you're working on it. And I said, like me, there are days that I'm all over the place, and, but I stick with it. Because on average, I can finally work myself into, and I just, I've tried to focus on my breathing, you know, and that's also a time for me to, to have my gratitude to do all the things that I'm thankful for all the things that, you know, I think Terry read this somewhere about asking for things to come in our life, instead of instead of looking at your neighbor and say, Oh, they got a new car, why don't I have one? It's like, sir, you say what?   Terry  47:19 Praise? You praise them? Just, you know, Oh, I'm so thankful that they've gotten that maybe show me some of that. Please, may I have some of that, hey, there's so much abundance in this world, that there's enough for everybody.   Peyton  47:35 And a mindset of not thinking in terms of lack in thinking or in terms of gratitude is super powerful. So   Roy Barker  47:44 yeah, I'm right there with you. To kind of goes with you know, staying in our own lane, we, you know, kind of like we talked about the yoga. Other people really aren't paying attention to us in life, we need to stay in our own lane, do our own thing on our own race, however you wanna say it's,   Peyton  48:00 yeah, all we can do is work on ourselves. Unfortunately, we can't change people. So   Roy Barker  48:04 you know. Yeah. And there's a couple things that you know, those that, what is it those that care don't mind and those that mind, don't care, something, something like that. So, it's always good just to focus on ourselves what we can do. And, again, I it's a fine line, we can't criticize and be beat ourselves up. But you know, my position is that, even if I have a good day, or am a good, do good today, you can always do better, you know, and try to strive to just be something a little bit better every day, they'll small steps over time. Add a huge,   Peyton  48:40 totally just singing competition with yourself only.   Terry  48:43 Yeah.   Roy Barker  48:46 Well, well. Like I said, I know we're running late. So Terry, unless you've got anything else. We'll try to wrap this up real quick. Yeah, either one of y'all have anything else that you want to know.   Peyton  48:56 Thank you for inviting me onto your podcast. This   Terry  48:58 is nice to finally oh my gosh, it took like,   Roy Barker  49:03 yeah, so tell us dessert? Well, I mean, you've got a lot like Jason and the yoga and but is there something else that you may use every day or something that you do you feel adds a lot of value to your life. Um,   Peyton  49:19 maybe this came through all my practices, you know, the Reiki, the yoga, whatnot, but I just tried to practice radical self awareness. You know, we're human, at the end of the day, we're never going to be infallible creatures, we're never going to be perfect. But I think just learning to recognize those shadow parts of yourself as well as those light parts of yourself and you know, not judging them, not attaching to them. But just recognizing and becoming aware, is the most important tool that we can practice. And I think just noticing what you notice, I say that a lot in yoga, but yeah, I think that that's probably what I use the most every single day. Yeah, just paying attention, noticing without judgment and not being too hard on yourself giving yourself lots of compassion, we're never gonna be perfect. Why try? It's just a waste of time.   Terry  50:12 Designed here. So for sure, be kind   Peyton  50:14 to yourself, people are so mean to themselves, we're our worst.   Terry  50:18 You know, we're bad. If we can be horrible, you can count on me a beat and myself, you know? Definitely. But, you know, we're just, we're just humans.   Roy Barker  50:30 Well, I think, you know, again, if, if everybody would just open their mind up, and just try to take it all in, I think we would be probably be nicer to each other as well, instead of having this seems like a lot of pent up hostility is, you know, let's figure out something to take that away. We should be nice. Perform acts of kindness for other people random, you don't have to expect something back. But do it.   Terry  50:57 Don't get Yeah. Yeah.   Peyton  51:00 When we're nice to ourselves, it's easier to be nicer to other people and not project on them, when we can recognize the parts of ourselves that aren't so wonderful, you know, we can be more compassionate to when we experience those not so wonderful sides of other people. And I mean, that's a practice in and of itself. And I think that that's the most important practice, and it's hard. And, you know, every day is a little different. We all get triggered, but um, yeah, I definitely agree.   Roy Barker  51:25 All right, Peyton, thank you so much for taking time to be with us. I know you've got a lot going on. So tell us where they can reach out to you for the Yeah, so my or for the yoga?   Peyton  51:38 Yeah, so my website is www.oversoulfw.com. You can find me on instagram at oversoul.fw. And then the studio I teach at is called The Studio in Fort Worth, Texas. It's on Jennings. I teach Mondays, Wednesdays Thursdays and Fridays. And yeah, all of our teachers are awesome. So come see us. And yeah, if anyone is interested in Reiki trainings, my next one is this August, the 14th and the 21st for level one and two. So yeah, those are the best ways to get in touch.   Roy Barker  52:15 All right.   Terry  52:16 Well,   Roy Barker  52:16 y'all reach out I know Peyton can help you get on the right track with one of the many practices and it's worth it. Like I said, go in with an open mind. You'll be surprised what you'll get out of it. Yeah. All right. that's gonna do it for another episode of feeding fatty Of course. I am your host, Roy. And you can find us at ww.feedingfatty.com. We're all on all the major podcast platforms, iTunes, Stitcher, Google Spotify. We're also on all the major social media platforms probably hang out on Instagram a little bit more than others. A video of this conversation won't go up on YouTube once the episode goes live. So if there's anything we can do to help anybody get you in the right place, please let us know. We'll be glad to do what we can. So until next time, take care of yourself and take care of your health. Connect with Peyton: www.oversoulfw.com peyton@oversoulfw.com IG: @oversoul.fw  www.feedingfatty.com

Is your agency as profitable as it could be? Are you successfully forecasting agency finances? Nate "Agency Dad" Jenson has built his business around helping agency owners drive profitability. Nate is a certified management accountant and internal auditor who focuses on offering the tools and accounting practices necessary for a thriving agency, with his business Agency Dad. On his second visit to the podcast, Nate talks about forecasting and the importance of managing the future, instead of wishing you could change the past. He explains why you, as an agency owner, are very in tune with your business and can make a pretty good forecast of where it will be in three months. He also offers valuable advice on how you can take that first step to start managing the future. 3 Golden Nuggets Having a plan is the 1st step. One of the questions Nate gets the most from agency owners is “when should I hire a new team member?” You need to do your forecasts, he says. What are your sales going to be in the next 3-6 months? There are a number of methods you can use to make that forecast, like linear regression. He recommends the Dilbert method, where you sit down and write down what do you think sales will be in the next months. Most agency owners are pretty in tune with their business and can make a pretty good estimate of what a few months in the future will look like for their business. You'll never be exactly right. The important thing is to be looking forward. Have a line of credit. Even with forecasting, you can find one month you don't have enough money for payroll. Of course, no one wants that, but you have a lot more options if you catch it weeks in advance. You have more time to make some adjustments, reduce expenses, or take a loan. Jason always advises mastermind members to get a line of credit, even if they don't need it, for those cases. You may think you don't need it, but things may not be that good a few months ahead. It's better to have it than to go through the embarrassment of missing payroll. Your team may start jumping ship, and finding the right talent is not easy. Fixed vs. variable. You should really understand the difference between fixed costs (payroll, rent) and variable costs (sales commissions, direct media spend). Nate advises moving your fixed costs into variable costs. The more you do this, the easier it is to be profitable. Basically, if you can change those fixed costs to variable, your breakeven number goes down. And so as soon as you hit this number, you're going to hit that profitability sooner each month. So your sales can be lower and you're still going to make more money. Subscribe Apple | Spotify | iHeart Radio | Stitcher | Radio FM Stop Focusing on the Past and Start Managing the Future Jason: [00:00:00] What's up, everybody? Jason Swenk here. I am excited for another episode. On today's episode, we're going to talk about why it's important for you and how you can actually forecast your agency so you can actually be more profitable. I have a repeat guest, Nate, who is amazing at all of this, and let's go ahead and jump into it. Hey, Nate. Welcome to the show. Nate: [00:00:29] Jason, thanks for having me on again. I appreciate it. Jason: [00:00:31] Yeah. I'm excited to have you back. Uh, so for the ones that haven't checked out, the, the first episode that we had you on, uh, tell us a little bit about who you are and what do you do? Nate: [00:00:43] All right. So I'm Nate Jenson, uh, the owner and founder of Agency Dad. Our, we're an accounting firm. We focus on helping, uh, marketing agencies become more profitable. That's really, that's really, our niche is how do we, how do we drive profitability? Uh, we don't do any tax work. We don't do anything like that. We do bookkeeping. We do, uh, financial reporting. So everything we do is geared to make you more profitable. Jason: [00:01:06] Well, we all want that, right? Because I think too many agency owners always focus on, you know, just top-line revenue. Hey, Jason, I want to make it to the million mark. Then I want to make it to the eight-figure. Mark. I'm like, well, what's the profit? Nate: [00:01:20] Yeah. If you could work less and make more, I would rather just have a lower top line and more profitability. So… Jason: [00:01:28] Exactly. Well, let's, let's talk about like, are there, like, how can we create forecasts? Because, you know, I think a question I get asked often, and I think as you do as well, like, can I afford to hire someone? Or what does it look like when I need to hire someone next? Like how do I figure that out? Nate: [00:01:47] Yeah. That's, that's probably the question I get more than anything else. Can I hire somebody to, when do I hire somebody? And if somebody asked me that my, my response is, well, what are your sales going to be in the next three to six months? And if we can't, if we can't answer that, then we really don't know if we can hire somebody. So, so for me, the forecast is where you start. Jason: [00:02:06] And so if that's where we need to start for, like, what is our sales look like for the next three months? How can we forecast that out? Nate: [00:02:14] Okay. So there's, there's a lot of methods, right? Uh, if you're like me and you're really into accounting, you can use linear regression. You can use exponential smoothing. There's a lot of, kind of analytical tools like that. If you're an agency owner and I say linear regression, you're probably tuning out and... Jason: [00:02:33] Yeah. I kinda, I kinda almost passed out when you use those big words cause I've never heard those before. Nate: [00:02:39] Yeah. So there's, there's a method that, that… If you're an agency owner and you just want to sit down by yourself and, you know, do your own forecast there's a method I would recommend. And I've, I've heard it called different things, but the term I like is the Dilbert method. So if you're familiar with Dilbert the comic strip, uh, there's a lot of, uh, let's say questionable business practices used in that comic strip. Uh, but the idea is you sit down and you basically say, hey, what do I think it's going to be? You know, what's my best guess? And so I've actually found, Jason, most agency owners are pretty in tune with, with a lot of the ins and outs of their business. You know, so I can do, I can do the linear regression, but if, if someone says, hey, I happen to know that every December our sales go way down, because you know, the seasonality of the business. Uh, a business owner or an agency owner, they can, they can say, well, my, my sales were, you know, they're 500,000 in November. I'm expecting them to be, let's say 400,000. Just because that's what happens. And for a, for a simple kind of first pass, I think that's a totally appropriate way to set up your first budget or your first forecast. Jason: [00:03:51] True. And then now that we kind of set out the future forecast for sales for the next quarter. What's the next step in order to, you know, making sure we're profitable or when we can actually hire? Nate: [00:04:04] Uh, similar again, if you're using the Dilbert method already, uh, the next step is… Think of a forecast, like your profit and loss statement, right? You look at your PNL for the prior month, what did I sell? What are my costs of goods sold? What are my expenses? And so you're setting up a PNL, but it's in the future. What about, what am I going to sell? What are my costs of goods sold? What are my expenses? Okay. Get your rent, get your payroll and get all that in there. And what am I expecting my profit to be? And it's hilarious, Jason. A lot of people will say, hey, well, I'm, I'm, I'm not good at this. I don't really know how to do this. Uh, having a plan is, is, is the first step, the, the number of times that I've actually set up a forecast for a client and I've come back to that client and said, hey, if everything goes according to plan, you're going to lose $10,000 a month, right? Uh, that it, that happens all the time. And the one thing that we know about a forecast is it's going to be wrong. No matter what it is, it's going to be wrong. You're going to be high. You're going to be low. But if you, if you do the forecast and your plan is to lose money, you know, you've at least got to take some action, make some changes. Jason: [00:05:17] Yeah. You know, one of the things that we did, uh, that I think is really easy for all of you guys listening, is we had our bookkeeper export out all of our expenses on a spreadsheet. And literally, you know, like, like you were saying, and then we had, like, we basically put out 12 months, so he said January, so here's what it is fixed. And then we copied that all the way through December. Then we added a couple of columns to the spreadsheet above and said, well, here's what we think we're going to bring in revenue. Kind of like what you're saying for the quarter. And then we could play with the model, uh, because then we did all, you know, we put in the easy formulas, you know, minus income minus expenses, and then, you know, divided that by, you know, to figure out our profit margins. So if we wanted to hire someone in the future, let's say three months from now, we would put in their salary under payroll. We would add them in there. And then it was really easy to figure out going, well, man, okay, we can afford this person because we look like we're bringing in, you know, a million more dollars this quarter and we can afford to do this, this and this. And it still keeps our profit margins at X. Is that what you're saying? Nate: [00:06:37] Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Um, you can always go deeper, right? You can always go and say, hey, we can't afford it, but should we afford it? Should we maybe look at raising our prices before we do it and so forth? There's all that stuff. But just for a first pass. Yeah, exactly what you said as you build out your model, say, it's say it's only three months, right? Maybe it's the year, but maybe it's just a few months. And you say, hey, we're making this, you know, this net income at the end of the, each of those months. Like you said, play with the model. What if we add one person? What if we reduce expenses here? What if we can get one more client? And again, you're never going to be right, right? It's just a forecast, just a guess anyways. But if you're looking forward and you, you can play with that model and say, can we hire, can we, uh, you know, can we, should we reduce our rent? You know, should we not renew our lease? All these kinds of things. Uh, you've just got to look forward. So many, so many people manage just historically, right? They see how did we do last month? Oh, we didn't do as well as we thought we would, well, what are we gonna do different this month? Well, let's just, let's work harder, right? That's not a plan, you know, you, don't working harder is well… You're gonna just gonna work yourself to death. And that's when you say let's get more revenue because we don't really know why we're profitable or not profitable. Jason: [00:07:52] Yeah. I, I remember one time I came into, you know… we used to do our budgeting and our forecasting really not existed. And I remember coming, looking at the bank account right before I went into a leadership meeting and I was like, holy cow, this is the lowest it's ever been. And I was like, we're not going to be able to make payroll in the next two weeks. If nothing changes. And we were able to, we made payroll for all 12 years. Um, we just made it that one. But after that I realized I needed to do forecasting and build a performer out to really show me, is it like… Because you're always going to have in the future. Like if you do this modeling, right, you're going to see where you actually start losing money where you don't have money, right? And it's just about how far out is it, and then it gives you that time of going, wow, man, I got six months to get my act together in order to make a major change. Especially if a big contracts about to end. And that's going to take a really big dip in your income. You know, let's say, Nate, you probably deal with, you know, these, this all the time where some clients have a huge contract, that's like 40% of their revenue. Nate: [00:09:16] Yeah. Yeah. For sure. And, and when, uh, when business comes in kind of in a lumpy way like that, uh, that's much harder to, that's much harder to deal with. Um, like one of the things as I was preparing for this podcast, and I was thinking about… Is there's really two kinds of, of revenue that I see and predicting the revenue for each of those kinds takes a different sort of mindset. One is the retainer revenue. If, you know, if you have a book of clients and you're like, hey, I know who my clients are and how much they pay me. Your revenue forecasting is actually pretty easy. And if you have, uh, you know, if you have, your, you know what your payroll is, uh, it's pretty easy to say my retainer is enough to cover my payroll, my other expenses, and so forth. If you're a more project-based, you know, say you're a web developer, uh, you're, you're much more reliant on, hey, how much business do we think we can pick up in a given month or a given quarter? And it's interesting, Jason, I've actually seen, I don't know if, I don't know if I'd call it a trend yet. But I've seen quite a few of my clients who are on that, uh, in that project-based kind of revenue. They've actually, as they're doing their forecasting and I'm helping them with their forecasting. Some of them have actually moved from a, uh, traditional employee type model on the expense side to contracting a lot of that. Because… Yeah, well, yeah, predictability. When your revenue is so lumpy, it's very nice to have your, your, uh, cost be a lot more variable, you know? Even if a contractor is more expensive per hour… Might be cheaper overall if your revenue is, is way up and way down. Jason: [00:10:59] Yeah. You know, the, the other thing, I have a lot of mastermind members that… In the past couple of months, and even right now, they're going through acquisitions and they're getting bought. Uh, like I'm thinking of one of our masterminds Dean that just sold maybe three months ago and… uh, you know, very successful business, you know, in the multimillion-dollar range. And he never really did forecasting. He never put a performance together. And when they actually, and this is why it's good too…  Especially if, if you guys are listening both, it's good for predicting out and profitability when you need, and to make yourself a little more relaxed rather than that volatil… volutary…? Nate: [00:11:41] Volatile. Jason: [00:11:43] Yeah, there you go. Big words I can't say. I went to Florida State, guys, come on. Um, but uh, all the people that are looking to buy you are going to look for the future cast. And they want to know because that's what they're buying sometimes. And if you don't know it, that's going to send up red flags. So for your sanity, for your predictability, and especially for, if you want to be able to potentially sell one day, please make sure you do these on a regular basis. Nate: [00:12:17] Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's again, it's driving that profitability right? Managing to the future instead of just wishing you could change the past. Um, but, Jason, there's something you mentioned a few minutes ago that I wanted to get back to. You talked about that time when you were almost out of money for payroll, right? We actually, and I recommend this as well, but we actually do for our clients, uh, multiple kinds of forecasts. So the first one is the PNL forecast, but we do a separate cashflow forecast. So we'll usually have that, like a rolling eight week forecast. And the payroll is a perfect example…. Is if it's, if it's Monday morning and that's when you run your payroll and you're out of money, you're like, do I have personal money I can throw in the business? Do I have a really good banker friend that can somehow can be aligned really fast? And even if you do, you know you're going to pay through the nose on that rate to get the money. Uh, it's, it's a totally different experience if you're looking ahead and you're like, oh my gosh, eight weeks, our bank account goes negative. Uh, what can we do? Well, if you need to get a loan, you have eight weeks to get it. But you can say, hey, maybe we can reduce expenses. Maybe we can not take that owner distribution I was planning on. You have a lot more options. So the PNL forecast is where it all starts. Uh, but you need to take that and go to the next step and say, how's my cashflow going to change based on, you know, based on my expectations of sales and expenses and so forth? Jason: [00:13:43] Yeah. You know, um, that reminds me, I tell our mastermind members and I tell people in agency playbook, the first thing I want you to do is get a line of credit. And they'll be like, hey, Jason, I'm good. Like, I got a ton of cash I can operate for over three months. I'm like, things are not always going to be that good. Um, and so get a line of credit when you don't need it. And so if you ever do come into hard times, you don't have to miss payroll and you don't have to be embarrassed. Because if you miss payroll and you tell your employees and your team that, or your contractors, they're jumping ship. And finding the best talent is very, very hard. And I always say, get a line of credit. I don't care if you don't need it. Like, I think we tapped into it one time when we actually need it. And then here's the other trick with the line of credit. They will cancel it all the time if you never use it. So every month I would just take out like 5,000 for one day, put it back in so they see some movement. Because it doesn't cost you anything, if you don't use it. Nate: [00:14:49] Absolutely. Totally right. So it's, but the point is, I think you, you have that use it when you need it. Uh, have, you know, get it before you need it, like you say. But just, you've got to look forward, again, the number of times I've seen people who they just, they have no idea where they're going. They just know where they've been or where they are. And, and then they want to know, hey, should I do this? Should I do this? And should I do this? You got to look at the future. And I, I know this can be an overwhelming thing for people. And that's why I say, hey, if you can't do a 12 month forecast to a three month forecast. You know, look at your sales for three months and then once a month, sit down and add on that next. That's gonna, that's gonna get you way ahead of where you are if you're not even doing that. And it's just a great place to start. Jason: [00:15:35] So awesome. Well, Nate, this has been awesome. Is there anything I didn't ask you before you tell the listeners about this cool, special offer? Nate: [00:15:46] Uh, let's see. I would have one thing I guess, and this isn't just with forecasting. This is with, you know, kind of bookkeeping and reporting in general. One thing I wish my clients understood more, uh, when they, when they became clients, was the difference between what a fixed cost is and a variable cost. Uh, if you have a lot of what we call it, fixed costs, and that's a cost that just you pay every month, it might change, but it doesn't change because you sell more. So you have rent, you have insurance, uh, you have your payroll and things like that. A variable cost is a cost that does change with sales. And so if you have sales commissions, that's going to go up the more you sell. Any direct media spend obviously is going to go up the more you sell. Uh, so if you're contracting your work, that kind of stuff's going to go up the more you sell. Uh, the more you can move your fixed costs into variable costs, the easier it is to be profitable. Because the more fixed costs you're like, I've got to sell this much every month just to break even. And then when I go above that and that's my profit. If you can change those fixed cost to variable, uh, your, your breakeven number goes down. And so as soon as you hit this number, you're going to hit that profitability sooner each month. So your sales can be lower and you're still gonna make more money. Jason: [00:17:06] Awesome. Yeah. You know, I, I didn't really learn that until kind of the very end and, uh, you know, it, it makes a big difference, so, uh, great advice. Well, Nate, this has all been amazing. Um, if people want to know more and you know, possibly work with you and, uh, because they they're like me, they look at numbers and they go, uh, dizzy. Um, what can they do to reach out to you? Nate: [00:17:32] Oh, thanks. Uh, first of all, one thing we actually do is we... We take most of the numbers and we put them on charts, graphs, and we make them really easy for people to just see a picture and understand it and move forward. So that's number one, but if they want to get a hold of me, uh, agencydad.money is our website. We do have a free offer for your listeners. It's agencydad.money/freeaudit. And what we do is we actually do an audit of their financials, uh, comparison, compare their financials to some industry benchmarks. Jason: [00:18:03] I like that. Yeah. You guys better take Nate up on that offer. That's uh, that's crucial. I mean, because we all want to know where we stack up and where we actually need to go. So make sure you guys go there. Say the URL one more time. Nate: [00:18:16] It's agencydad.money/freeaudit. And, just because of the topic of this podcast, I'll mention  that's a third, a forecast that we do is we actually forecast people's metrics. So they can see in the future, if their metrics are getting out of whack, based on what they should be. Just another way to give us a red flag on something. Jason: [00:18:38] Awesome. Well, everybody go check out that and get that free audit. And until next time, have a Swenk day. Nate: [00:18:45] Thanks, Jason.

There are so many benefits that come with investing in real estate investing. in this episode, we do a draft pick of the most valuable and heavy-hitting perks we have access to as investors. Shout us out on Twitter with who you think won, and some important picks we overlooked! @Roofstock  --- Transcript Before we jump into the episode, here's a quick disclaimer about our content. The Remote Real Estate Investor podcast is for informational purposes only, and is not intended as investment advice. The views, opinions and strategies of both the hosts and the guests are their own and should not be considered as guidance from Roofstock. Make sure to always run your own numbers, make your own independent decisions and seek investment advice from licensed professionals.   Tom: Greetings, and welcome to the remote real estate investor. On this episode, I am joined by   Michael: Michael Albaum   Emil: Emil Shour   Mark: Mark Woodling.   Tom: And today we've got a fun episode. So as an investor, there are a lot of different events and things that happen, you collect rent, you pay your mortgage, and today we're gonna be focusing on all of the good events. And the way that we're going to do this is a fun segment where we're going to draft our favorite moments as a real estate investor. And then after we do our draft, it's going to be a snake order draft, we're going to post it on a Twitter for you guys to vote on. So again, this episode is going to be on great events or moments as a real estate investor. All right, let's do it.   Gentlemen, just to reiterate the rules, we all are going to have three picks, it's going to be a snake order. I've got a ping pong ball machine behind me with all of our names to define what the order is. And after we complete this draft, we're going to throw it up on Twitter, and let the people vote. I'm feeling pretty good about my chances here. I put a lot of research into great moments as an investor and good luck to get in second place too you guys.   Emil: Trash talking already? Alright. All right. Let's see if you can back it up.   Michael: You know, trash talking is like the epitome of someone who's not confident in their ability. It's kind of the way I see it, but you know, to each their own.   Tom: Smoke smoke and mirrors let's trash talking right there. What you just did. Alright, so   alright. ping pong balls. So the with the the order is with the first pick of the great moments of being an investor is Mark Woodling. That's good. You get the first one but you have to wait all the way to the turn to get your next one. Up. Second is Ooh, Tom Schneider, ooo I like that second. All right, up third. Is Emil Shour. All right, good job and right, bringing up the rear and the turn, Michael Albaum.   Michael: Is this is this because you thought it was talking trash to you? Is that? Why is that what your pinball machine gave me fourth place.   Tom: The ping pong ball. The ball Don't lie. As, was it Ben Wallace that said,   Emil: Can you show us proof of this draft order cuz you're just you're just looking at nothing and magically make taken names out of a hat. So I don't believe you, sir.   Tom: Don't question what's behind the wizard.   Michael: Off screen.   Tom: Alright, so alright, let's let's get into it. So again, we're each gonna pick three rounds of events as a real estate investor that you love that are just like, awesome. And then we're going to shoot it out to the twitterverse to vote on the who, who has the best draft? So Mark, why don't you go ahead and start us off, kick off the draft the draft.   Mark: Cool. So I named mine to add to the fun, and you'll be able to reference that later. But my first one is what I call Hail Yeah. Where I live in the state of Texas and a property that I own here had some hail damage. So I was able to get a new roof for about a 10th of the price, which is gonna run about $30,000 for this home. So you know, I paid the insurance premium and or the deductible excuse me, and it came out to be about a 10th of the price.   So the property needed a new roof anyways, and the timing was good. And so I scored that new roof, Hail Yeah!.   Tom: I love it.   Michael: Great.   Tom: You know, and coming up with this. And coming up with this concept. I would never think of insurance covering some needed cost as an event. And I'm already I'm already digging it. Alright, that's a good one Mark.   Emil: Like we got we got to all have sports analogy. So guys, come on, Mark, Mark started it, you get, you gotta you gotta have a sports analogy with your pick.   Tom: All right, I'm up second. I'm going to simplify a little bit so this is going to be a cha-ching nice and boring rent. The rent collection hits your checking account. So rent   Emil: off the board rent.   Tom: Cha-chiing rent collected that mailbox mailbox money hits it, so that'll be my second pick.   Emil: What's your sports analogy? Come on, Tom.   Tom: I mean I said cha-ching i don't i don't have I don't have   Emil: The layup the layup?   Tom: Yeah layup that's a great one. Yeah. layup that's what we'll…   Emil: I'll be helping you guys all episode. Geez, you guys don't watch no sports.   Tom: You're the marketing guy. You're the marketing guy. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. layup just nice and boring rent collected. That's my first pick.   Emil, You're up next.   Emil: I can't believe this is falling to the number three spot you got you guys are obviously amateurs here in in drafting. So I get the Supermax contract extension. And so what that is that's a renewal with a rent increase, baby. So I'm taking that number three, the super max contract extension. Coming in at number three.   Tom: With an increase in rent cash. That's a good one.   Mark: And the sports analogy or name?   Tom: Supermax contract!   Emil: Supermax contract extension.   Mark: All right.   Emil: That's a basketball one.   Tom: Love. Love that.   Emil: Mark. Paid pay attention, Mark, come on.   Mark: I find no relation, sir. But yeah, I'll keep going.   Tom: Alright, Michael, you've got the next you've got the your pick and the turn. Yep. I'm not really a big sports guy. So I could use a little bit of help kind of finessing this one I call I'm calling it the forced error. But I feel like the error doesn't really apply here. So it's basically forcing appreciation on a property. I'm able to take out about 100k in the course of two years by increasing the rents and decreasing the expenses, sacrifice fly. I'm trying to think of how I'm like, I'm like forcing the appreciation.   Emil: So sacrifice sacrifice, like kind of works.   Tom: Well. How about this? I think you're I think you're including a lot of moments in that one. Why don't you when you get that appraisal back? So like, or whatever, when it's like the moment that you have the higher value.   Michael: Yeah, that's perfect. So right. Yeah. Realizing that you have created equity in the property via forcing appreciation.   Tom: Oh, yeah. It's like the squeeze or   Emil: Yeah, the squeeze bunt squeeze bunt.   Michael: Yeah, squeeze bunt.   Emil: That's not really a bunt. It's like a squeeze Homer, but maybe it's a homer.   Tom: Inside the park home run?   Michael: Okay. Yeah. And inside the park Homer, let's go with that.   Emil: Michael's like, what is this hockey term, homerun, I don't understand.   Michael: All right. So then for my next one, and I just came up with this. Alright, I just came up with this one, the name, it's called, stealing home. And that's where you can buy a property for significantly under market value.   Tom: Ooh, that's a that's a good one.   Michael: And you get a boatload equity day one.   Tom: I like that Emil, you're up with your second pick.   Emil: Oh, man, I'm trying to think of the name for this one. And maybe you guys can help me out. I don't know the name for this one. My pick is when Mr. Market treats really well. And interest rates go down while your property value goes up. And you're able to cash out refi your full initial investment. And the refi basically makes it so that your payment is no different than it was before. So you're doing a full cash out refi and your payment goes up like 10-20 bucks. We can call it the Mr. Market BRRRR   Michael: I've got I've got one, you guys, you guys. Let me know I'm gonna throw it out there, feel free to throw it back. We'll call it a buy. Right? It's where you get the win. But you didn't have to do anything to get it.   Emil: Okay. All right. Or maybe it's like, maybe it's like winning the division where you get to skip the first round or something. You know, you get to advance to the second round of playoffs without having a   Michael: Wildcard?   Emil: No the wildcard you got to play to make   Michael: Oh, I don't know how I know Zilch about sports.   Emil: Homefield advantage, I don't know?   Tom: Oh, I think you're right. They're like buy when like if you're like the one seed like you know, you don't have to do anything and you're just getting that getting out that way. Yeah. So   Emil: Good job Michael see you even though sports kind of   Michael: Awesome. I like came in hot and then immediately fumbled over myself.   Emil: Fumble There you go. For sports analogies. This is getting good.   Tom: I got one that happened. I'm thinking of one right now of a property. This was an event where a tenant moved out. And before they even started to do the turn work. The property manager found a new tenant that wanted to move in right away so they didn't have to do any of the turn work. It wouldn't have been a lot but you know, probably saved me. 1000 bucks. 2000 bucks of the person moving in right away. I kind of like that. Stealing analogy or maybe handoff? That's what it is. Yeah. Handoff. Yeah. Handoff.   So it's a new property. Least before turn construction. That makes sense?   Michael: Yeah,   Emil: Yeah.   Michael: That's a solid getting it leased up early that's great.   Tom: This is really working the right side of the brain coming up with these sports analogies that go with this   Michael: Sure is, especially on the spot.   Mark: Well, I have to say,Emil did take one of mine, it was you know, asking for over market rent getting a two year lease signed, and I called that one, Bill it and they will come. Reference the Field of Dreams. But that was already taken. I just had to one. Because that doesn't happen too often from the marketing genius.   Somine's a little different, but it's, uh, you know, again, in Texas, cash out refi on investment properties is almost impossible to find. But I was able to find one a year ago after making close to 20-30 phone calls to banks to, you know, any type of financing institution, and I found one, so I called it the walk off home run refi. I mean, to me, it was just like the ultimate winner to have that money now sitting there out of a ton of equity that was building up in a property.   Emil: Nice.   Michael: Wait, Mark, are you saying that   Mark: Walk off refi.   Michael: Are you saying it's tough to do a cash out refinance on investment property in Texas? Is that what you said?   Mark: It's very, very difficult. Texas has some different laws about home equity lines of credit, and on. I mean, it is probably one of the most strict in the country. And on investment properties. It's next to impossible, but I found a company that will do it. So if anybody is ever interested, I have the one that will do it.   Tom: Is it the, So I'm assuming it's not the financials of the property? It's just the lending rules. Is that right? Mark?   Mark: Yeah, lending rules enemy in this in this instance. And you know, I kind of use cash out refi, in a sense of like, they also they just left me a line of credit. So you know, in a sense, I just have a dry powder sitting there, they're in a checking account ready to be used at any point. So I kind of maybe use that incorrectly. But the line line of credit is not easy to come by.   Michael: Good to know.   Tom: You got some good creative ones, I love the insurance cover the cost of needed repair too.   Alright, Mark, you're up. And then our last round our third round, you're on the turn. So you do the first one in this round.   Michael: Make it a good one.   Mark: All right. This is a little trick because you know, I am a real estate agent and I am an auctioneer. So I'm calling this one, I'll come up with a creative sports name, going once going twice, rented. So have an open house, make sure you schedule it during a tight timeframe. So this is you know, again, for a property that I've I've managed on my own in the past. You have the open house tight timeframe, you have multiple people all show up at the exact same time. So you create competition. So once that competition starts to boil, people get a little more aggressive.   Hey, I'll sign a two year lease, Oh, great. Actually a one up you know, you know, they'll pay a little bit more. So I let that competition drive just like an auction. And man, it pays dividends because a I get all this time back in my schedule B. You know, I create that competition let people bid up a little bit and then get longer, longer terms and better terms overall.   So a sports analogy. Slam Dunk unno.   Michael: For the competition piece of it. We could just call it sports.   Tom: Or, or or what about this? crowding the paint? That's a lot of people in there.   Emil: I was thinking full court press.   Mark: Yeah, that's it. That's it. I'll take them all. So yeah, good job. I'll take it.   Tom: I'll Alright. So I'm going to go I am up next. And what I'm going to select is, I'm a busy professional. I bought these properties as some ancillary income and you know, it's it's enjoyable, but you know, it's also enjoyable is when nothing happens. Just nice and boring. Call it chalk, right.   So, chalk is a term when everything goes to plan on like your NCAA bracket, and I'm going to call mine chalk so no news is good news. Just nice and boring collecting. You know, nothing no, no news, right Chock. That'll be my there.   Emil: Those are my favorite monthly understatements when it's just rent management fee and that is nothing else.   Tom: Two lines. Yeah. Charge rent, collected rent.   Mark: Can't you just call this a soccer game where like, nothing happens for like, forever. I mean soccer fans, the Olympics are on and I gotta into it, but otherwise, it's nap time almost like golf.   Tom: Yeah, that's a good one.   Michael: Shots fired.   Tom: Shots fired. It'll be interesting, like a little personality test and looking at the ones that we've selected. Because Yeah, anyways, this is this is good. Emil, you're up next.   Emil: Alright. My third pick is going to have to be when you buy a property expecting to do some work to get higher rent. And when you get a new lease, the lease ends up being higher than what you originally underwrote it for. And so I'm calling this one pulling up an all star from the farm system.   Tom: Ooh.   Emil: Michael, that's a baseball reference, in case you're wondering what I'm talking about.   Michael: Thank you very much. Yeah, you saw the blade in the headlights look on my face.   Tom: So I'm just gonna go right down. So this is…   Emil: What's a farm, We're talking about animals now? What's going on here?   Tom: Higher rent than expected? Would that be the short way?   Emil: Yeah, higher rent than expected. On a new lease.   Tom: Sorry, farm system, pigs, I interrupted your guys's banter.   Michael: That's great Emil. Thank you for teaching all of these sports things.   Tom: Yeah, Michael's learning a lot in today's episode.   Michael: Yeah, today, I get to learn all of the sports, all of our listeners get to learn real estate stuff, I get to learn   Mark: All the sports   Michael: Yeah. All the sports!   Alright, so then my third and final one is the fact that you get to have, if you use leverage, you get to have a very high degree of control over your asset. And so you can buy $100,000 asset and that appreciation that you see is on $100,000 asset, but you might have to put in 20 or 25 to get it. And so because you can have a high degree of control. I've called this one to Tom Brady.   Tom: Okay, what is the what is the event here? What is the event?   Michael: Leverage using leverage to purchase real estate because he established a higher degree of control right where he deflated the football.   Tom: Oh.   Mark: I call it the Emmitt Smith personally, just because he's a legend and a real estate investor but I'm a Cowboys fan. So sorry.   Tom: That makes sense. Alright, so I like that you're getting using some leverage to buy and, and all that good stuff. So okay, we're gonna go through very quickly everybody's picks. And then we'll, when this episode goes out, we'll shoot it out to the twitterverse and see what see who see one. So Mark's picks are Hail Yeah, this is…   Mark: I would change that to Hail Mary just to make sure that we're sticking to sports references.   Tom: And that is when insurance covers the cost of a needed repair. That's super Yeah, that's, that's a winner. His second one is a walk off home run. And that's the doing a right refinance in Texas, where it's very difficult to to manage it. A refi. And then his third one is I think I picked the name you're crowding the paint. This is when you have multiple tenant applications, building come some competition, and just getting better terms and offer so. Excellent, Mark. Excellent. pick my….   Michael: Very nice, very nice.   Tom: Mine is a little bit more vanilla than mark so I have a layup that's when just rent is collected. I have a handoff that's when a new property is leased before the turn of construction starts or in the middle of term construction. That's always great news to see in your inbox. And then lastly, a draw chalk there's a there's no news nothing nothing new I don't have to worry about I don't think about it. So that's that is mine.   Let's see next we have Emil and he has some excellent naming you can tell he's got a good marketing mind here. The Supermax contract extension This is a renewal with a rent increase. Excellent Emil. Then we have the the buy win this is appreciation plus, at the same time, lower interest rates. So being able to have a pretty awesome refi perhaps even pay less and get a cash out. And then lastly, he has a an all star coming up from the farm system. And this is when you're getting a higher rent than expected. Excellent excellent.   Michael: Just such a ridiculous like crazy ridiculous name.   Tom: All right. All right. Last one. Michael you have a inside the park homerun. This is a forced appreciation. This is an increase in the rent doing some stuff. So that moment of when you completed that and have the forced appreciation. This is stealing a home buying a property on undervalue equity day one. Love that. A lot of that a lot of home runs here. And then lastly, you have Tom Brady deflate gate using leverage to buy those. Those are our list of, the yeah pantheon of excellent real estate investing moments.   Alright everybody, thank you for listening to the episode. If you enjoyed it, please like subscribe, all that good stuff. And as always happy investing. Happy investing, and happy investing. Happy investing

My son Benny is back from a four week trip halfway around the world with a non-diabetes camp program. He says it was amazing! To be honest, I had a really hard time with it. This week, we share how we prepared, what went wrong, how Benny deals with feeling different on these types of trips and a lot more. Previous episodes with Benny: 14 years of T1D Benny & Stacey talk untethered and more on their way to the endo Talking about Control IQ & addressing kids' questions about diabetes Our 12 year diaversary Ten years of T1D - our whole family speaks up This podcast is not intended as medical advice. If you have those kinds of questions, please contact your health care provider. Check out Stacey's book: The World's Worst Diabetes Mom! Join the Diabetes Connections Facebook Group! Sign up for our newsletter here ----- Use this link to get one free download and one free month of Audible, available to Diabetes Connections listeners! ----- Get the App and listen to Diabetes Connections wherever you go! Click here for iPhone      Click here for Android Episode Transcript below: Stacey Simms  0:00 Diabetes Connections is brought to you by Dario Health manage your blood glucose levels increase your possibilities by Gvoke Hypopen the first pre mixed auto injector for very low blood sugar, and by Dexcom take control of your diabetes and live life to the fullest with Dexcom. This is Diabetes Connections with Stacey Simms. This week, I sent my teenager with type one halfway around the world for a month with a non diabetes regular camp program all the way to Israel. He's home safe, and I thought it would be fun and interesting to talk to him about how it all went. Are you glad you went with all the work you had to do?   Benny  0:43 I am so happy I went I'm so happy you guys let me go. It was amazing.   Stacey Simms  0:49 Benny is 16. And we share how we prepared what went wrong, how he deals with feeling different on these types of trips, and a lot more. This podcast is not intended as medical advice. If you have those kinds of questions, please contact your health care provider. Welcome to another week of the show. Always so glad to have you here. You know, we aim to educate and inspire about diabetes with a focus on people who use insulin. My son Benny, who you're going to hear a lot of this week was diagnosed with type one right before he turned two. He is now 16. My husband lives with type two diabetes, I don't have diabetes. I have a background in broadcasting and that is how you get the podcast. And I've talked about this for a while on the show. We've been planning for quite some time. But if you are brand new, earlier this summer, we sent our son Benny to Israel for four weeks. I still can't believe we did it. bit of background. He has attended this irregular summer camp about four hours away for us in Georgia since he was eight years old that first year for two weeks. And for a month every year since except 2020. Of course due to COVID. He also goes to diabetes camp. He started going to the sleepaway diabetes camp for a week, when he was seven, he went to a little day camp in our area, he mentioned that he gets called kudos, he went to that when he I want to say he was three or four years old, he was very, very little. And that's a wonderful program as well. But for this year of the regular camp, when you are a junior, when you're going to be a junior in high school, there is an option to go to Israel. So while we don't know all the staff who went we know the program, they know us the kids know Benny, and they know the type one situation as much as friends can. Even so this was really hard. It was mostly hard just for me. But I'm going to come back after the interview and tell you a little bit about the lowest moment I had for real when he was away. And how it was it was honestly perfectly timed. I was so lucky to have the support that I did. I'll do that after the interview. A couple of notes before this interview. If you are new to the show, and you haven't heard any of my interviews with Benny before, he is a bit silly. He's a bit sarcastic. And you know, I think our whole parenting or family style leans a bit toward that toward darker humor. So please No, and I'm sure I don't have to say this. We take diabetes very seriously. He is in great hands in terms of health care, and our endo who we've had, we've been seeing him since he was two things were doing great. I also want to say that I am a bit troubled by the comments you're going to hear Benny make about diabetes camp, but I'm choosing to leave them in like it's how he feels right now. Just remember when you listen, this is a 16 year old, who may not have the best memory of when he was younger. But I know how much he loved diabetes camp and how important it was for I think for the confidence that you're coming from him now. And we'll revisit this issue when he gets older. But we have done other episodes about how much he liked camp. So I'm gonna link those up as well if you want to listen. But look, how you feel is how you feel. And that can change at different ages doesn't make it any less valid. So I'm leaving those comments in. And after you listen to the interview, if you have any questions or stuff you'd like us to follow up on, please reach out, you can always go to Diabetes, Connections comm and contact me through the website. We have a Facebook group Diabetes Connections, the group, and of course, I'm all over social media. But I'd love to know what you think especially those of you who have teenagers or young adults who were not teenagers so long ago, you know, I'm curious to know because I wonder and I worry sometimes about being so open about this, you know, we are so far from perfect. I do worry a little bit about you know some backlash, frankly, and some people thinking we're really doing it wrong. So let me know what you think. But be nice about it. All right. Diabetes Connections is brought to you by Dario, we first noticed Dario a couple of years ago at a conference and Benny thought being able to turn your smartphone into a meter was pretty amazing. I'm excited to tell you that Dario offers even more now. The Daario diabetes success plan gives you all the supplies and support you need to succeed. You'll get a glucometer that fits in your pocket unlimited test strips and lancets delivered to your door at a mobile app with a complete view of your day. The plan is tailored for you with coaching when and how you need it. And personalized reports based on your activity, find out more go to my dario.com forward slash Diabetes Connections.   Benny  5:13 Hi, Benny, how are ya? I'm great. How are you?   Benny  5:14 I'm great. How are you?   Stacey Simms  5:16 I'm doing very well. You've been home for three weeks as how are you settling in?   Benny  5:20 Great. I want to go back. I miss my friends.   Stacey Simms  5:23 Yeah, I'm sure. I'm glad you had a good time. So I have a lot of questions for you.   Benny  5:28 From Listen, stop. Hi, listeners,   Stacey Simms  5:33 parents and adults with type one. But first, let me just ask you How was the trip? I mean, I tell everybody how the trip was   Benny  5:40 very, very fine.   Stacey Simms  5:43 And we'll talk more in detail about diabetes stuff. But did it meet your expectations? Like Was it a good time?   Benny  5:49 Honestly, the most fun was when they just kind of let us do whatever in the hotels,   Stacey Simms  5:54 history, religion, majestie, no big shakes, just hanging out your friends.   Benny  5:59 Two days before we went to some banana boating thing. All the counselors were talking about how much fun it is like they all did it. And it's super cool. And it was really boring. Oh, you're the worst.   Stacey Simms  6:11 Alright, so let's talk diabetes stuff.   Benny  6:13 Oh, okay.   Stacey Simms  6:14 Um, we planned a lot of this. We talked to the staff and they knew you because you've been there for a long time. But not all this stuff know me.   Benny  6:21 I had one of the counselors as a counselor at Camp Coleman. Two years back, no, three years back. And then one of the other counselors was in our unit early early.   Stacey Simms  6:35 I guess my point is, you have been to this camp since you were eight years old. So while perhaps the people that were on your bus, you know, the the staff Yeah. familiar, the system, the people that I needed to talk to you understood that this was just you didn't just show up that day, and say, I'd like to hang out with these campers, so they knew who you were. So we did a lot of planning in advance that I can talk about at a different time, because I don't want to get too bogged down in all of that. But let's start with what involved you, which was the packing anything to share. I mean, we just went through and figured out what you needed, and then added half more, we gave you like, 150% of what we thought you needed. had that go for you.   Benny  7:11 I didn't touch 80% of what was medical wise. I mean, there wasn't much need for it all. Like it was nice to have it in case I didn't need it. Most of it was like die hard situation. Like if you're going through the desert for 18 weeks, and then swimming through the negative. What.   Stacey Simms  7:32 I don't know if you can swim through it. But I mean, like knock wood we sent you with, I think two vaccines and one GMO pipe open. So you didn't use any of that. Right? So that kind of stuff. Thank God. Now of course, of course, we sent you with more insulin than you needed normally. And you use a ton less insulin. Yeah. Which we'll talk about. Well, I   Benny  7:51 used most of the vials, right You certainly with   Stacey Simms  7:54 right? But I sent you with pens. Also, you know, I sent even lots of extra stuff. I'm curious and I mean, not to put you on the spot. But why don't you use a nice medical bag? Why won't you let me send you with something that is organized easily? much work the blob of a bag that you use too much work. It's so gross. It's one big compartment.   Benny  8:15 It works. It does its job.   Stacey Simms  8:18 We do break it up with little bags inside. But I gotta tell you, I know it's not me, but I would I would get like a nice medical bag   Benny  8:25 with little find a medical bag, and we can talk about it.   Stacey Simms  8:29 I have like 10 that I would get Oh, you're the biggest pain. Okay, so we'll look for that. Like this thing. No, that's a that's a packing cube.   Benny  8:37 Hmm. That Well, mine is packing you.   Stacey Simms  8:40 Well. Yours is part of a packing cube system. Yes, you have. For those of you who know packing cubes, I enjoy them. I have them all different sizes. Then he uses just one big rectangular bag for your medical supplies that he carries out at home in his backpack. And it's great because it has everything in it. But it's horrible because it has everything in it. I like you should compartmentalize. I   Benny  9:02 already do that. Give me a face in different way.   Stacey Simms  9:04 Yeah. Alright, so then you had everything packed. And you had your medical bag of all your diabetes stuff inside a backpack that I assume you took every year. Okay. Is it a Camelback? Did it have water? I don't remember Oh,   Benny  9:14 so I had a hiking bag right that I threw a Camelback bladder in   Stacey Simms  9:20 Was it easy to get water all the time?   Benny  9:22 Oh yeah. They made sure you had a you weren't allowed off the bus if you didn't have three liters minimum of water would you   Stacey Simms  9:29 perfect What about the the plane ride there that I know it's so long but you know for me not fun for me you got on a plane in Charlotte and you flew by yourself from Charlotte to Newark then you met the group went Newark to Israel and for me once the Dexcom signal disappeared in Charlotte like that was pretty much it cuz you got on the plane oh yeah appeared you had it but I didn't have it that was pretty much it for the day for me cuz I'm not gonna do watch you How so? How was it? You know? Did you do okay? Especially on the plane.   Benny  9:58 I didn't do anything. Special, like at all. When I got to new work, my blood sugar did go low a little bit, but I had food. And then I was fine.   Stacey Simms  10:07 He told you look out for this baggage claim Lowe's, when you get off the plane after you've been on the plane for a while and start walking, it was terribly described with it we're going to be this is going to be one big complaint episode I can tell grievances will be aired.   Benny  10:19 I just like to make it known. I may complain a lot about it. But I loved it.   Stacey Simms  10:23 Thank you for that disclaimer. Because I know you loved it. You read you just like to complain when you get a chance. Yeah. So you get there. I'm not going to I promise I'm not going to go blow by blow the whole trip. But I am curious. That's a very long plane ride. As you said you didn't do anything really special? Did you consider changing basil rates walk around or anything?   Benny  10:43 So the first trip the flight there, I didn't even think about it. And it worked out pretty fine. So on the way back, I didn't touch it.   Stacey Simms  10:51 Alright, well, that's control IQ helping. That really helps a lot. Because in the past, we've, if you've been in the car for three or four hours or a plane ride, you've gone so high, so that's really good. Okay, so we had set up different basal rates in your pump. Yeah, because we assume there would be a lot of activity. So as I recall, we had the regular one, then we had a 15% less insulin and the 30% lessons, and we labeled them. Yeah, 10% less, you switch to that when you got there.   Benny  11:15 The first full day we were there, I switched immediately to the 30%. Less one. And I was Hi, pretty much the entire day. And I did that for about a week. And then I texted you. And I thought the 15% less would be too much. So we made a 20 like 3% one. But eventually, I ended up just switching back to my normal basal rate. And I mean, that was fine.   Stacey Simms  11:40 One of the questions that we got and that I was going to ask you about here is talking about how difficult it was to carb count. Forget the activity for a minute or two. But like with all the foods that you do, yeah, no,   Benny  11:50 it was next to impossible to know exactly how much I just kind of guessed. And sometimes, or at least most of the time, breakfast and lunch, it was next to impossible to know how much I should give myself because I didn't know what kind of activities we were doing. And I didn't know how like extraneous they would be.   Stacey Simms  12:10 Well, they would tell you in the morning, though, wouldn't they what you were doing? I mean, I knew   Benny  12:14 what you were doing. Well, they they tell us the night before, but like it was vague. It was like okay, we're going to go on a hike tomorrow. And that could mean we're going to walk 10 feet up in elevation, up some stairs and then look at a valley or canoeing. We're going to walk through the negative for four days.   Stacey Simms  12:32 I feel like I should have asked you more about like when you were going high when you first got there because you gave yourself 30% less insulin. How did you feel like were you uncomfortable was fine. Yeah, you never feel bad when you're high?   Benny  12:42 Well, I mean, sometimes. Yeah, I know. I know. But yeah, no, I was fine.   Stacey Simms  12:46 But mentally were you? I mean, I I don't even have to ask because you you didn't get stressed out. You never get stressed out because of diabetes. Like Were you worried like no, no, I mean,   Benny  12:59 the only time I was where I was worried about going low during the desert. Yeah, but that was about it.   Stacey Simms  13:05 So tell us about that. What was the desert when you say that? What was that?   Right back to Benny answering that question. But first Diabetes Connections is brought to you by Gvoke Hypopen and when you have diabetes and use insulin, low blood sugar can happen when you don't expect it. That's why most of us carry fast acting sugar and in the case of very low blood sugar, why we carry emergency glucagon there's a new option called Gvoke Hypopen the first auto injector to treat very low blood sugar to Gvoke Hypopen is pre mixed and ready to go with no visible needle in usability studies. 99% of people were able to give the book correctly find out more go to Diabetes connections.com and click on the Gvoke logo. Gvoke shouldn't be used in patients with pheochromocytoma or insulinoma visit Gvokeglucagon.com slash risk. Now back to Benny talking about the only time he was really nervous about diabetes on the trip   Benny  14:05 is like the third or fourth day we were there. And they made us pack our bags. We left the hotel. We put our big bag with money with the majority of our clothes under the bus and we didn't see that for three days. We had a medium sized like duffel bag, which had clothes for the next few days. And then we had our you know our backpack. So the bus would drive our medium bag to the next camping spot. We'd unload that and we'd carry our our normal bags with us. About 20 minutes into the first hike. I immediately went low. So the medic that was with us, like prepared. You know I talked to her. She was great. She had like four like hand sized bottles of like squeeze honey, and I downed like half a one like 20 minutes into the trip. That was pretty much the hardest, battling Those lows was the hardest, like the most difficult thing I had with that diabetes pretty much the entire trip.   Stacey Simms  15:05 What was the medics reaction? Was she just met? Oh,   Benny  15:07 no, she cool. She was, um, she was a medic in the IDF. She had worked with kids with diabetes before she'd been on the trip. And she was fine about it. So   Stacey Simms  15:15 she didn't make you feel weird now. Okay. How was the honey? It's pretty good.   Benny  15:20 You know, eventually, I just got to the point because I mean, it was a constant battle for the entire trip. Make sure it Angola eventually just got to the point where I just like, tapped her on the shoulder and she'd be like, okay,   Stacey Simms  15:31 and that was three days. Yeah. Okay. So that was probably the hardest part. Yeah, I miss those three days.   Benny  15:36 It didn't help that we were grotesquely underfed.   Stacey Simms  15:40 Okay, complain away. Hit me with the breakfast so late   Benny  15:43 for lunch and dinner. We're fine everyday. I still don't understand why. But breakfast, you know, we'd like in the early hours of the morning 530 to 11. breakfast every day was a cup of tea and a single cookie. And I will never understand it. We'd hike, you know, and then at 11 we'd sit down and have lunch. And then we wouldn't do anything until dinner. And I don't understand why lunch and dinner were so big. If we're not doing anything. Did you ever put anything in your bag?   Stacey Simms  16:11 Like for the next morning was? Yeah,   Benny  16:12 well, so my friend Nathan had these like, you know, those like gels that bikers use on there. Yeah, he had a bunch of those. So I stole a couple. They had like 100 milligrams of caffeine in them to be perfect. But you   Stacey Simms  16:23 never put like a pita in your bag for the next day. No,   Benny  16:26 gingers weren't like, stuff we could take with us. I'm just kidding. And then they were like, I mean, it wasn't like we were literally in the middle of the desert with no way. Yeah, we had to walk or we wouldn't be able to get out. There was always you know, bus was always a 20 minute drive away.   Stacey Simms  16:40 What food Did you like the best shwarma   Benny  16:44 shwarma in a pizza with hummus. There was some spice, we can never figure out what it was. It looked like a red chili sauce. But they always just pointed at it and said you want spicy. You know that when you know lettuce, pickle, blah, blah, blah, whatever. Every time, every lunch.   Stacey Simms  17:02 That was yummy. So good. I would assume that after a month of eating pretty much the same thing. You figured out how to dose for food if not for the activity. Yeah,   Benny  17:09 after a while, we stopped doing, you know, like intense, hard activity. So I kind of had to readjust again, because it was like in the middle. It was you know, it was hot. And we'd walk a lot, but it wasn't like, hard. You know, like, I'm gonna die. It's 106 out.   Stacey Simms  17:28 So everybody wanted to know what surprised you about the trip or about the trip about diabetes, whatever that means to you.   Benny  17:33 Um, how bad the plane food was,   Stacey Simms  17:36 oh, plane food has a reputation of being delicious. I can't I mean, why would that surprise you?   Benny  17:41 I've never had like, a long in a flight. But yeah, but you ate it? I didn't on the way back. Oh,   Stacey Simms  17:48 that's what surprised you. Yeah. I'll tell you what, surprise me. Oh, okay.   Benny  17:55 So closer to the end of the trip, they took us around to a bunch of different kinds of people. We met Orthodox Jews, a Palestinian, a druid drude, we met someone who just lives in Israel, you know, doesn't believe in anything. And we got other perspectives on everything. And just the way, you know, as a complete outsider, in the way they all see everything is just so different in the way that they saw things compared to each other. I mean, I had never taken into, like thought how different people could see the same thing.   Stacey Simms  18:31 That's really interesting. That's great. What surprised me the most was that you didn't have one instance while you were there. And this is all about diabetes, for me of the kind of thing where every once in a while, you'll forget to put your pump back on, or you will have a site crash out and you won't change it or just something happens where every once in a while you are 400 you know, for three hours, and I'm like, what's going on? You're like I fixed it, I rage bullets and all that stuff. And I was sure that that was going to happen a lot. It didn't happen once. It didn't have only one high, you went low, but it didn't happen once. And I gotta tell you, I'm so proud of you. And maybe that sounds like a low You're welcome. Maybe it sounds like a low bar as you listen. But you send a 16 year old off by himself, right? Nobody was. And to be clear, no one was checking you every night. Nobody was right, nudging you. So   Benny  19:17 Yoni, I love him. He's my favorite person of all time. I love you. And I know you're not listening. He was the counselor that we decided would check in on me make sure I'm not dying. Because he was in my cabin. A couple years ago, the counselors would come around and do room checks, make sure everyone's in their room. And he'd always you know, he's like many of you dead. That's what he'd say, you know, I'm good. And but you know, we both met you know, we both knew he meant like, is your blood sugar? Good. You know, you're dying. Yeah. And every once in a while, maybe once a month, once a week. I get a false low in the middle of the night because I'd be sleeping on my Dexcom my Dexcom was super sensitive to compression lows. Ya know, cuz   Stacey Simms  20:01 I got those low alerts to   Benny  20:02 every low in the middle of the night, besides one or two of them were compression lows. And it was crazy. But he was following you. Yeah. So so that's where I was going with that he'd text me in the middle of the night, you know, like 1am 2am. And he'd be like, Do you need help? because he'd wake up to it. Sure.   Stacey Simms  20:20 I shouldn't laugh. That's   Benny  20:21 fantastic. And don't get me wrong. I was funny. Yeah, I was fine. And then in the morning, every day, I'd have to go up and like, hug him and say, I'm sorry for waking him up.   Stacey Simms  20:29 But that was really cool. And I probably should have mentioned that already that we did. That was part of our protocol. And then on the other side of things, we decided I would follow, I turned off all my alarms except urgent, low. And the idea was, well, what am I going to do? If he's 50? Right. And I'm in Charlotte, and you're in Tel Aviv. So what we decided was, I would not text you right away, I would wait like 20 minutes or something. And then I would text you if I couldn't get you over text only. And I would text a D, a D. And I think in my head, then I was like, then I'll text the people in New York. And then I'll text the embassy. Like, I had this plan in my software. Forgive me, I was so nervous. But it never got to that point, because let me just give you some credit. The two times there was urgent lows that came in, but they resolved or I could tell that they were fake. They resolved very quickly. There were two times when I texted you and you texted me right back. And that was I don't know if you know how great that was. That helped me so much that you just said it's wrong. I'm fine. It was great. So thank you.   Benny  21:29 We had three Israelis on our bus as counselors. And when then we had two Americans from Camp Coleman. One Israeli was like the main guy, he was our tour guide. I mean, he was also a counselor, but he was he was like the unit head of the bus. But the other Israeli shy. Me Yoni and Shai would went outside on like the third day and your neighbors like just in case I'm not there, I want you to show her how to awake you. So I showed her the hypo pen and the vaccine me showed her how to use it. And I told her on my pump, if the numbers red, use those if it is yellow, do not use those. I don't use them both. Oh, yeah. You know, I talked to one of the others. But like if the number is yellow, do not use those color hospital. Use the thing den call hospital. Every time we moved hotels, we'd get a new room with new people. So every night on the first night, I'd tell them you know where the type of pen in the back seam er, I tell them how to use it. And I'd tell them not to use it. Unless you couldn't get hold of Yoni. Yeah, or shy. If anything happens. Look at the number call Yoni. If you can't get ahold of Yoni calls, you know, keep going up the food chain until you can.   Stacey Simms  22:41 How did they react? Did anybody you seem nervous?   Benny  22:43 Everyone was like, Don't die. You know? Like, if I have to use this, I'm gonna kill you. Everyone's super chill.   Stacey Simms  22:49 Alright, I'm confused though. Red and yellow numbers because I don't want   Benny  22:52 so on the pump. If your blood sugar's low, the number like we're, like tells you the actual number. It's red. And if you're high, it's yellow. Oh, so   Stacey Simms  23:01 you were saying don't give you the vaccine and the hypopyon if you're hot. Yeah, I thought you were saying like, give it faster. You're telling the story.   Benny  23:07 Okay, that was it. Yeah, if if you look on the T slim, it's yelling at me right here. My blood sugar is totally 120 right now. Perfect. I thought you ate before the interview, please. But yeah, I told them on the right side of the screen. There's a number typically with an arrow. If that number is yellow, and you give the hypo pan or the vaccine between me that is very bad.   Stacey Simms  23:32 gone, it's gone. It's gone. Okay, that's why you needed to go to the hospital. Now I get it. I just you can tell I'm very involved parents that I look at all the time. And I know the numbers. You know, you got the T slim right when I stopped looking at stuff. And as a started to stop looking started to stop. But I mean, you were 12 because we're up for renewal. Now you're 12. And that's like, exactly the time when I'm not going to start looking in your pants. Right?   Benny  23:59 Sorry, that was a weird way to word that.   Stacey Simms  24:01 But you know what I mean? Like, I'm not gonna go in your pocket in your pocket. And you do it yourself when you were a little like kind of like give me your pump? Or let me see, you know, or with the animals that we had the remote so it was a lot easier. But yeah, so I don't I'm familiar with the T slim but it's not like you had animals for 10 years and I could like fly through that pump. The TCM I have to put my glasses so   Benny  24:19 funny, because I can fly through this. But it's so funny watching her dad tried to do it once. bless his heart. Oh my god, it was painful.   Stacey Simms  24:32 One of the other things that I was worried about was when you were going in the Dead Sea or doing some of the swimming because not only is the Dead Sea super salty, some of the other places are salty too. But it's so salty. We've been told you have to protect your Dexcom transmitter. I know everything worked out. Did you cover it?   Benny  24:47 I did. And then it fell off in the Dead Sea. The transmitter. No the cover. Oh, so we went in the middle of summer. The water was almost boiling. You're come we're complaining It Like It wasn't unbearable. We all went in for like 10 seconds to see if we could flow and then we ran out when we went Yeah, it was great. I know what it was warm say nice things. Did I not put a disclaimer? I loved the trip, but there was a lot to complain about. So   Stacey Simms  25:17 the band aid thingy cover fell off.   Benny  25:19 Yeah, we had one of the clear, you know, the clear one,   Unknown Speaker  25:21 we got a waterproof check agenda. Yeah.   Benny  25:23 So we got in and it started to peel off. And then I got out and got back in for a second. And it came off. And you know, my Dexcom was fine. Okay, good. That's good.   Stacey Simms  25:33 I guess you could have floated by you would have seen it. Haha. Okay, come off. I did see it. But I'm glad so it did hit the salt a little bit kept working. Alright, that's good to know. Did you wear anything on your feet? Remember, I told you you should bring shoes.   Benny  25:45 So remember those like $20 rubber shoes? I got? Yeah. Those broke on the trip to Israel, like in my backpack. So well. So one of them broke. So I had one on my left foot. And then the one on my right. I was like holding on to with my toes. Yeah. And eventually it just kind of let it go.   Stacey Simms  26:05 But at the Dead Sea, they were able to wear anything on your feet. Yeah, that those good because that stuff hurts.   Benny  26:11 Well, I took them off eventually. Because Yeah, whatever.   Stacey Simms  26:14 Oh, to be on. Alright, so let's talk about diabetes tech and gear and everything. You didn't seem to me like you had any issues we gave you. I said 150% of supplies. I think I gave you 300% of Dexcom and inset so I probably lied. Yeah, so you didn't run out? You didn't have any troubles. It didn't look like you lost anything. Really. I remember texting you at one point. I remember why we were texting. But you said something like, I think I was pretending to joke but really telling you like, hey, make sure you change your insert because I was trying to stay away and not do it. Then I was trying to do like that mom thing where you joke what you're really you know? And you said I just changed because it fell off in the ocean. So did you have an issue with stuff coming off in the water? Or Okay,   Benny  26:57 well, we were only in the water twice.   Stacey Simms  26:59 Oh, there you go. Did you change your inset every three days? Like I didn't.   Benny  27:04 It was either until it stopped working or it fell. I   Stacey Simms  27:06 hate that you do that? Come on, man. Well, my skin heals fast enough for it. So Alright, this is the point in the podcast where I give the disclaimer again that Vinnie has had diabetes for a very long time. He knows what he's doing. We wish certain things   Benny  27:22 worse diabetes mom, but at   Stacey Simms  27:23 some point, I have to kind of let him make some mistakes. And I can only yell at him when he's home. So I'm glad you changed it when you needed to. I can tell by your numbers that you know everything was okay. I will tell you that my biggest fear was not an emergency, although obviously that's very fearful to think about because I knew you had a medic, I knew Israel has good health care, you know, wasn't worried about that kind of stuff. I mean, I was worried that diabetes would slow you down and make you feel different give you problems that your friends wouldn't have. He's smiling. You feel different? Yes, I   Benny  27:54 did. You really Of course. That's what I worry about the most. I thought we got over that face.   Stacey Simms  27:58 You got over it a long time ago. But I worry still that like what I mean by that is by slow you down is you'd be on a hike and you would go low and they'd have to stop and everybody else would go ahead. And then you'd be like with the staff catching up and feeling bad, you know? Or you'd be on a camel, you got to write it down. It's   Benny  28:16 so much fun and so disappointing at the same time.   Stacey Simms  28:19 Are you tell the story then I'll tell you my fear.   Benny  28:21 They hyped us up for this camera ride for a full week. We got on the camels walked two minutes in the direction we were supposed to be heading and then walked back. They made it sound like we were gonna like full day through the desert on the camel. You say   Stacey Simms  28:35 you're gonna adopt a camel and bring it home? Yes, I have never been on a camel. So that's two minutes more than me.   Benny  28:41 Did you know that camel milk is actually designated as a superfood because it has all the vital nutrients.   Stacey Simms  28:47 I just read somewhere. And I'm not putting it in my newscast because it looks like garbage to me that camel milk cures type two diabetes?   Benny  28:54 Because that's real. Yeah, since but I just read that this.   Stacey Simms  28:59 Yeah, this is super food though, right? It's supposed to be really nutritious.   Benny  29:02 It has all the essential nutrients.   Stacey Simms  29:04 Oh, fabulous. But my fear would be that you'd be on the camel, you'd be low. You'd feel lousy, you'd have to get off, right? you'd miss out things. And your friends would be like, Oh, well, you're slowing us down. You know, he's laughing at me. But that's the kind of stuff I worry about that more. Because you're smart enough. The one thing that I really think we've we've really taught you well is that when you need help you ask for it. You don't let things go, right. You're not going to be in pain or feel uncomfortable and not tell somebody and with diabetes. I think that's really, really important. So I know you laugh at me, but I worry about the feeling different, even though you're pretty cool about   Benny  29:42 Well, I mean, I don't worry about that. But it's also the fact that I don't hang around people that would dislike me for something I can't control. I don't interact with those kind of people. You know, if we all had to stop which, you know, we we almost never had to stop for me. I mean, I could I could keep going and drink coffee at the same time. But we stopped a lot anyway, just because everyone got tired. You know, if we stopped because of me, everyone would be like, Oh, thank god we're stopping. With the I don't know, can I? No, no. What the heck, Benny? Thank you.   Stacey Simms  30:14 Alright, so here's a question from my friend Steven, who says at this camp, how often did you think about diabetes, versus how often you thought about diabetes at diabetes camp. It's been a while since you've been to diabetes camp. But   Benny  30:26 diabetes camp, in my opinion, made diabetes feel like a disability, more than anything I've experienced,   Stacey Simms  30:33 will actually tell me more about that.   Benny  30:35 Every time we were doing something, they were like, I don't know how to explain it. It's just everything was centered around it, you know, and someone did their inset for the first time by themselves. But you know, good for you pat on the back, the entire cafeteria would clap for them. Like, while you just conquered cancer. Like, I mean, I don't mean to compare it to that. But like, it's, from my opinion, it's like, they were like, the mindset of the staff was like, you know, even if they did have diabetes, his mindset was like, these kids have the worst life in the world. And I need to try and make it better for a week.   Stacey Simms  31:12 Interesting. Because when you were little when you were seven, or eight, and you did your inset for yourself for the first time, didn't they applaud you didn't that feel good at the time at the time, but like, I look back on it, and it's like, okay, you clap for me, that didn't change my life. If you clap for me, and my pancreas started working again. I think that that's, I'm going to kind of keep this as a time capsule thing, because I think that your perspective may change as you get older, but I think very valid. Right. And you're 16. But I think diabetes camp. I will, we'll agree to disagree. I think it prepared you for camp.   Benny  31:47 It might have but   Stacey Simms  31:49 so back to the question, if you think you can answer it. Did you think about diabetes more or less, less, significantly   Benny  31:55 less, just because everything at diabetes camp was centered around diabetes, and everything was like, Alright, check your blood sugar. Now, I can check my blood sugar when I need to. I don't need someone five years older than me to tell me that I need to check my blood sugar. And that something I've been doing for 10 years is wrong. Because they think it's wrong. You know, they wouldn't let me use my Dexcom as my number until one of the last years I was there. Yeah. And we had been doing that for four years by that.   Stacey Simms  32:21 Yeah. So when you're on a trip like this, maybe because you're the only one, somebody like you who's confident, doesn't really feel like they need tons of I don't know supports the right word. But you don't need a lot of attention to diabetes. And other than yourself, you felt like you thought about it less just enough to take care of what you just take care of. Yeah. How do you do that? Do you? I'm curious, just for a little insight into your psychology. Do you wait until you get an alarm? Are you thinking about it when you're eating? Like how does that work?   Benny  32:47 I wait until I get an alarm. It is not on my mind. until something is wrong. Well, you   Stacey Simms  32:52 pull us for food. Please tell me you bolus for food when   Benny  32:54 you eat. Well, yeah. But like, other than that, other than that diabetes 90% of the time. Unless something's wrong with it. It's you know, there's not on my mind, just in the background. Yeah.   Stacey Simms  33:04 I think this interview was good. I'm not sure people will stop listening to me, because you're so great.   Benny  33:08 I don't know. I think every time I'm on the I'm on the show your views go up about Oh, yeah. I can eat the mic again. If No, please   Stacey Simms  33:16 don't. So Stephen went on to say, is there a lesson in the different kinds of attention? Is there a lesson in there for you as you get older? Or do you view diabetes camp at Camp like this as being completely non related?   Benny  33:28 Hmm. Because my chair gonna say   Stacey Simms  33:30 my answer is that diabetes camp, even though you enjoyed it less as you got older diabetes camp, when you were younger, prepares you to be more independent whether you remember it or not, because I remember Benny before diabetes, can't think any after diabetes camp.   Benny  33:42 That's all I'll say. Yeah. You know, looking at it right now. I think I would have done just fine at Coleman without not without kudos. Definitely. Could I think everyone should go to kudos. It is the best thing in the world. That's for little kids. Yeah, it is amazing. I must have changed, if it hasn't changed, and your kids are right now. But CCT and Morris, they're good for kids that aren't, you know, 100% confident in themselves. But I mean, by the time I was like, 910, I had already gotten comfortable with the fact that I had diabetes, and I couldn't change it. So like, be sad about it.   Stacey Simms  34:16 Well, and that leads us to another question that someone had, Sally asked, Do you ever feel it's unfair that you have diabetes? And if so, how do you work through those thoughts?   Benny  34:25 I absolutely think it's unfair. I mean, it sucks. But the way I look at it, it's just, you know, I can't change it. What am I going to do about it? Why be sad about it, and then I move on.   Stacey Simms  34:35 You've always kind of been that way in terms of accepting diabetes. And since I mean, when we're very young, you didn't really understand what's going on. And then once or twice in middle school, you had some real like, I'm really upset about this, but we just talked it through. Do you remember ever kind of feeling differently or have you always you're just such an easygoing?   Benny  34:53 Every once in a while when like two or three insects wouldn't work, and like I had to change my Dexcom my inset and my car. At the same time, I lose my transmitter, you know, every once. Every once in a while, it's like, this sucks. But I mean, that comes around so rarely. There's so very little times when I genuinely can't do something because of diabetes. There are times I can't do things, but not because of diabetes. But I've learned to just what are you gonna do?   Stacey Simms  35:22 I think to the fact that we, I mean, I'll pat myself on the back, I guess a little in that we've never really told you. You couldn't do it. Let you do all these crazy things, even though I'm at home, frankly, wanting to puke. What was I thinking? But we'll let you do it. And hopefully that helps with your attitude. I'm hoping it helps you you know as you get older. It's the worst. All right, we got to start wrapping it up. Now. When you Okay, so you hurt your foot while you were there. You can tell that story if you want to in whatever detail you want to but I'm curious when you got to the doctors in Israel, he kicked your kicked a coral there. So   Benny  35:57 over, you know, a couple events happened I ended up getting a pretty nasty infection on my foot.   Stacey Simms  36:01 When you saw the doctors in Israel. What did they talk to you about diabetes in anybody's feet? Sometimes people get the wrong idea and freak out.   Benny  36:09 So I don't really know what the healthcare system is. Because everyone spoke Hebrew. I just kind of went along with it. I was shy. Um, so she was translating. Yeah. Well, she just told me Okay, we're gonna do this now. I mean, I felt perfectly safe,   Stacey Simms  36:22 I'm sure. But she speaks Hebrew and English. Yeah.   Benny  36:25 So we get into the clinic. We go to the front desk, we tell them what's wrong. They said, Okay, wait here. She told me this process normally takes about four or five hours. We were done in like, 45. That's great. We go in to the room. We sit there for maybe a minute waiting for the doctor. He comes in. He takes like two looks at my foot. He like touches it for a second. He's like, does it hurt? And I'm like, sometimes he's like, yeah, it's just really bad infection. So he gave me a prescription for antibiotics and antibacterial cream. And then we went to the pharmacy and got him.   Stacey Simms  36:55 So there wasn't a lot of discussion about him diabetes, nobody   Benny  36:57 asked No. I mean, it wasn't even a thought.   Stacey Simms  37:00 All right. Well, I like that. I don't like that. I mean, obviously, you can take antibiotics. It's not a big deal. But you know, it makes me a little nervous.   Benny  37:07 If I was concerned.   Stacey Simms  37:09 I know. I know. And then the opposite spectrum is they go they fuss over feet too much because they might go Have   Benny  37:15 you ever told the river told the story about Yes, Simon will tell it again real quick.   Stacey Simms  37:19 Can I tell ya, basically, about two or three years ago, at the end of camp, Vinny had a large blister on his foot and went to the infirmary to get a band aid for it. And they sat him down, they soaked the foot they called me they made me promise to bring them to the endocrinologist. They were very concerned with his footwear. They wanted special diabetes socks. Now listen, as you listen, if you're newer to diabetes, neuropathy and feed can be a big issue. If you've had elevated blood sugars for years. It's not going to happen at a 14 year old type one with Goodyear one sees what happened was I finally and I yelled at them, Benny. And if you heard, but I got on the phone. I said, Give me Benny and he got on the phone and I said, are they scaring you? Like did they make you think there's something wrong with your feet like? And he was like, Mom, it's fine. It's fine. I was just terrified. They were gonna put thoughts in your head that didn't belong there. And then I wasn't gonna bring you to the endo, because we didn't need to. But finally, when I saw him, we told him the story. And he was like, should I examine your feet? And he was like, No, it's fine. All right, it was great. He was like, Okay, are you good? You're good.   Benny  38:18 I think the funniest part of it all was, so there's one nurse there every year that's only there for the first few weeks, which is a shame. She is the best. She knows that I know what I'm doing. And trust me, right? So at the nurse's office at the camp, there's the front desk, and then there's a closet in the back with all the meds. I just kind of go to bed and get ready. But you know, most of the other nurses are like, Oh my god, what's wrong? You okay?   Stacey Simms  38:41 That's Karen, by the way, who you love.   Benny  38:42 I love Karen. So Karen, who had like, was either in the process of leaving or was leaving the next day. And she walked in after everything had happened. You know, she wasn't there yet. And she was like, Benny, what are you doing? That's like, they made me do this.   Stacey Simms  38:59 It was fine. It was all fine. Yeah, no,   Benny  39:01 I'm not mad. I just think it's funny. You   Stacey Simms  39:04 roll with those things very well.   Benny  39:06 Okay, so the camp director of Coleman is leaving, which is very sad. I love Bobby so much. I mean, him I have a pretty good relationship. But here's a video of him going on the zip line over the lake, and he flips upside down. And it is so funny. I will show you later.   Stacey Simms  39:19 Okay. He loves you. I think he appreciated that you took on the challenge of going to regular camp with diabetes, and they've always been very good to us. Um, but start wrapping this up. Are you glad you went with all the   Benny  39:30 work that you had to show? I am so happy I went I'm so happy you guys. Let me go. It was amazing.   Stacey Simms  39:36 What would your advice be to other kids that are looking at programs that are that are difficult like this?   Benny  39:43 Take a job Oh, it is gonna be fine. If you know what you're doing at home. You know what you're doing anywhere. If you trust yourself enough to go out to dinner one night, I think you trust yourself enough to go somewhere without your parents for a couple days. It might not be a month long trip. in a foreign country, it might be to your friend's house for a couple days. But if you think or know, you trust yourself enough to be able to take care of yourself for a couple of days, I think you should go for it. You're always going to have someone with you, or at least you should, that cares about you, and will do things that you need for you.   Stacey Simms  40:19 Right as a minor. Yeah, on these programs is what you mean, right?   Benny  40:22 Yeah. Especially on these programs, there's always going to be at least two or three people that can and will help you with whatever you need. I will be your question for you.   Stacey Simms  40:33 You don't have to answer this. We stress experience confidence, responsibility over perfect numbers. Do you sometimes worry about your health or your numbers? or Why? What Why do you feel good about it? I mean, I think you're doing great. I don't want you to think you're not. But you're a one C is not going to be 5.8.   Benny  40:50 I mean, my thing is, you got to enjoy life. You can't worry about every little thing all the time. If your blood sugar goes high, your blood sugar goes high, darling, give yourself some insulin and go to have some damn ice cream. Sorry,   Stacey Simms  41:05 well, when you're high,   Benny  41:08 but like, if you're 200, and your friends want to go get ice cream, go give yourself some insulin and go get ice cream. Don't say no, because you don't want your number to be perfect. Can I tell them the celery and kid crying in the corner joke you can try. So we have a joke. There are some parents that are really strict with their kids. And those kids eat celery and cry in a corner all day.   Stacey Simms  41:29 And I worry sometimes that the kids eating celery and crying in the corner are going to be healthier long term.   Benny  41:34 So the thing is, you know, they have perfect most kids that are eating celery and crying in the corner have perfect numbers. I don't have perfect numbers. And I'm doing not crying in a corner. I don't think there's or you don't like to watch it. But I mean, it gets the point across you know, unhappy perfect numbers. You know, you might live a full life and have perfect numbers. If you do good for you. You're top 0.1% of diabetics. But there's no point in worrying about being perfect all the time. Because it's unrealistic. And it's not fun.   Stacey Simms  42:06 So the last question here is when you came home, I said it's going to be really hard for me to feel good about nagging you all the time since you just did a month successfully away from me. You're going to be a junior in high school. We're looking ahead to college. So I was joking. And I said I want to try to be here just for customer support. Like you tell me when you need me and I'm here for you. I don't want to be in your face anymore reminding you. It's been three weeks. This has been so hard because you're in my house and now I see everything and I know what's going on. How are we doing on that? Or is this a good situation? This is perfect. Oh God, I was hoping you wouldn't say that. I want to make you more   Benny  42:42 you good. You have done great. You have done wonderful. And if you want to get a bit more naggy you can get a bit more naggy it's not gonna change anything. But   Stacey Simms  42:50 all I want is for you to change that instead every three days. Put it on your calendar. I don't   Benny  42:54 use my calendar, only old people use. It's the worst. But I'll try harder.   Stacey Simms  43:00 Okay, thank you. I appreciate that. Thank you very much for joining me, I appreciate you coming on. I as always, I don't know how much of this I can actually use. We see Dr. vanderwaal. Next week, we go back to the end or next week so you can tell him all about your adventures. In fact, I need to take all the forms with us for Dr. V next week. Because we need your DMP. And you're I'm looking for the forums he's making fun of me looking around because we have a we have a DMP we have your 504 I gotta get all that stuff. My 401k   Benny  43:26 I have one it has $7   Stacey Simms  43:30 you really do from the grocery store. Alright, we'll leave it there. Benny, thank you so much for joining me, I appreciate it. I'm so glad you're home safe. Love you.   Benny  43:39 If your listener count doesn't go up for this episode, I'm suing Stacey Simms  45:24 you're listening to Diabetes Connections with Stacey Simms. Oh, boy, so you tell me good idea to put them on the show? Let me know what you think. And I will link to our other episodes with Benny. And you know, when he was younger, and maybe had some different opinions about things, you can listen to those at Diabetes connections.com, click on the episode homepage. I also want to mention, I realized that we left out a question that you may have, which is how did we keep the insulin cool? How did we keep the supplies cool, as you heard Benny talking about, you know, hiking through the desert and swimming in the Dead Sea and all that. And it was very, very hot in Israel at the time that he was there. And so the backpack that he carried with him that had about three to five days of supplies in it, we had the vial the Insulet vial that he carried with him in a frio you know, the pack that you can wet, we've talked about this many times before it keeps insulin at room temperature does not keep it cold. But it was a little free to pack that he could keep his vial in. And we also use a vivi cap. And that was new for us. And that's something that you can only use on pens right now they're working on vials, but that worked out really well. And you take the cap actual cap off your insulin pen, you slide the Vivi cap on it, it's it just looks like a bigger, fatter insulin pen cap. If I'm describing it correctly, I'll put a link in the show notes too. And it's got a little battery in it that you don't have to replace it lasts for a year. And it keeps it room temperature just like a frio. And that was phenomenal as well, because the that pen was really there as a backup and he uses vials, but he'll use an insulin pen as a backup. If he needs to take a shot if he needs to pull the insulin out and stick it in his pump, that kind of thing. And that lasted the entire time. He actually never used the pen which surprised me. He says he actually forgot it was in his bag. So when he came home, we decided to see how well the Vivi cap worked. And we pulled the insulin out of that pen it had been at that point five weeks. So longer than you're supposed to use insulin, FDA people don't listen, we put in his pump. And that backpack had been right through the desert 100 degrees or more with him the entire trip, the Insulet in the pen worked fine. So big thumbs up on 50 cap, I'm not an affiliate, I may they may become advertisers in the future. They are not advertisers. Now there is a promo code, I think flying out there from the episode we did with them, I'll have to check and see if that promo code is still valid, but I don't get a kickback from it. But that product worked really well. But that's how we did it. And the rest of the supplies were kept on the bus or you know, in the hotel, those were kept cool while he was traveling. So he had a separate backpack that he would pull from. So the main supplies for the entire month were kept in one place. The backpack supplies were for three to five days were kept with Benny the entire time. So it was an interesting way to do it if you have longer term travel stories. We've talked to a lot of people who've traveled the world with diabetes, I'd love to hear more. I'm always interested in packing kind of stories, or don't want to tell you about my really low point when he was gone because I had some some very nerve racking moments. But I had one that I want to tell you about for sure. And I was so lucky it happened while I was at the friends for life conference. So I'll tell you about that first Diabetes Connections is brought to you by Dexcom. And one of the most common questions I get is about helping children become more independent. Be careful what you wish for. Those transitional times are tricky. elementary to middle middle to high school. I mean, you know what I'm talking about right? Using the Dexcom makes a big difference for us. And it's not all about sharing follow up. That is helpful. Think about how much easier it is for a middle schooler to just look at their Dexcom rather than do four to five finger sticks at school or for a second grader to just show their care team the number before Jim at one point Benny was up to 10 finger sticks a day and not having to do that makes his management a lot easier for him. It's also a lot easier to spot the trends and use the technology to give your kids more independence. Find out more at Diabetes connections.com and click on the Dexcom logo. So every summer when I send Benny away for four weeks, when I send my daughter away for four weeks, both of my kids went to the same camp they both went away for you know, a month every summer since they were eight or nine I would get the same kind of questions from all of my friends. Don't you miss them? How can you send them away? You know, don't they miss you? Aren't you worried about them? And that are my diabetes friends, I would get lots of different questions right? Like how are you doing that? If the camp is not a diabetes camp, you don't you freak out when you can't follow him because we never use share and follow at camp, all sorts of questions and worries and things like that. So I honestly didn't talk a lot about this Israel trip other than to a few close friends because I knew that being around other moms with type one would be supportive. Like most of Would be great. But I also knew that some of the questions would make me even more nervous than I was. And I was really nervous about this. Letting Benny get on that plane. I didn't even go to the airport. When we dropped him off in Charlotte, my husband had to take him to the airport, because I knew I would just be so so nervous. And I didn't want to make Benny embarrassed or freak out. I mean, he's so calm and cool. But I didn't want to pass that nervousness off to him because I knew he was ready. And I knew he'd be safe. I knew this was a good group of people. But I was freaking out. So I didn't even go to the airport to drop him off. I made it I did. Okay, the first couple days were very, very, very hard. But when I got to friends for life, which was what about two weeks in, I felt great. And people were, you know, we were talking about it, and they were very supportive. But I also felt, I felt really, almost more nervous in a way. And I still don't know exactly what that was all about. But I think part of it was, I had worked out a plan. And I'll be very frank, I had worked this out with my therapist, I've been seeing a therapist for a couple of years, not just for diabetes, but because life is just so freakin stressful anyway, but we had worked out a plan that I thought was really good, I would only check Benny's numbers. And I shared this on an episode a couple weeks ago, I would only check his numbers at times of day that I decided I would check them twice a day, we had turned off all the alarms, except for the urgent low. And I did that I did that October of 2020. That had nothing to do with Israel. That's just in our developmental teenage plan that has worked really well for us. So I only had the urgent low. And I said, I'm only going to check it at these times of day. Well, when I got to friends for life. We were all having like a mom meetup. And everybody threw their phones on the table. And I really should share this picture. It was fabulous. Whatever your kid is, you know, who cares high low out of range in range, whatever. Let's all show at this moment of time where our kids number is. And I didn't do it because it wasn't the time of day to check his number. And I just didn't want to do it. And they were like Liz, that's a great group of moms super supportive. They were laughing everybody was doing it. And finally I was like, Okay, I'm gonna peek. I'm just gonna peek. And wouldn't you know it, he was 78 double arrows down. I didn't get alarmed. Because as I said, All my alarms were off except urgent, low, and I burst into tears. I just all came out at that moment. It was so stressful. It was so much. I'm not sure be dramatic. I mean, you know what I'm talking about. But 78 double arrows down. And I'm 1000s of miles away. And I don't know why it hit me so hard at that moment. Did I feel left out? Because I couldn't just look at my kids number. Did I feel left out because I had taken you know what many would consider a big risk? Did I regret it? I mean, I'm still having processed all those feelings. I'm still working it out. But oh my gosh, did I get hugs? Did I get support? Did I get people who understand? Thank you, Heather. And thank you, Heather, my to Heather. Thank you to everybody who really made me feel okay, and not judged. And of course, a few minutes later, that number turned around, you know, I didn't call him it wasn't part of our agreement. It turned around and he was fine. Now, later that night, you heard Benny and I talked about that one urgent load that I called him because it was like 20 minutes, and I kept going off and it was a compression low. It was fine. And he texted me back right away. That was actually that same night, but much later, it was about 11 or 1130 our time. So you know, he did what he was supposed to do. He communicated with me, but boy was I excited to have my community around me when I needed them the most. Nobody understands like we do. Nobody understands that pit of your stomach feeling. I knew he was safe. I knew he was okay. But still. Oh, diabetes. I'm sure I'll be sharing more about this experience. If not the months, the years to come probably we're still learning a lot from it. I hope to be able to you know, give some wisdom. Maybe some advice about just you're down the block sleep over because of it. interesting note. I can't say we paved the way for anybody. I don't know if I've mentioned this, but he was not the first kid with type one to go on this trip. Kudos to those other parents. I obviously don't know who they are. But knowing that other kids had done it certainly made us feel better. And it made it easier because the program knew that it could be done right. The leadership of the program knew it could be done.   Thanks so much for listening to all of that. I really appreciate it. All right. Thank you as always to my editor John Bukenas from audio editing solutions. Thank you for listening. Our Wednesday, newscasts are growing strong. I'm so happy I decided to do this. It is so much fun. And it's really taken off especially over on YouTube. If you don't catch it on Facebook Live and you want to watch it with captions, the YouTube channel, just Diabetes Connections. And I'll put a link in the show notes to YouTube. Check us out over there. But the newscast is every Wednesday live on Facebook at 430. And then I loaded to YouTube and it comes out as a podcast episode on Fridays as well. And if you're not familiar with that is all the latest headlines for diabetes, all types of diabetes for the past week and I love doing it. That's been a lot of fun. Alright, I'm Stacey Simms. I'll see you back here in just a couple of days until then, be kind to yourself. Diabetes Connections is a production of Stacey Simms Media. All rights reserved. All wrongs avenged

Unknown Speaker 0:01 Wake me up. Brandon Handley 0:02 Before you go, go. Set a listen. I totally grew up in the 80s I'm not gonna lie, I can't my good day to you, sir. I'm got some fun stuff for you today. Got up gonna be along the lines of miracles miracle creation, shit like that. When I had a class I'm in, I'm in a group, I'm in a course it's called creating personal mastery of streak morale, definitely talked about it comes from just the work that he's done over the years, he takes lessons from all the masters. Throughout history, we're talking Buddha, Jesus, whole bunch of Swamis, gurus throughout history, and he strips them of cultural identity. And when he stripped some of this cultural identity, you have an opportunity to revisit some of these concepts. Without preconception of, Oh, this comes from not my Lord Jesus, I can't take it. This call so I'm not my Lord Vishnu can't take it. This calls from you get the picture. Unknown Speaker 1:37 And Brandon Handley 1:39 when you do that, when you take away these preconceptions, you don't have a filter built in that does doesn't allow you to say no to something. Or perhaps I should say it makes it easier for you to say yes to some things. Because there's a specific logic. I don't even know if it's logic, there's a specific way that when presented, it's not illogical. That's a double, double negative for all you grammar nazis out there. There's logic and then there's something there's something in there. That just it is it sounds illogical. Unknown Speaker 2:34 But then there's this there's Brandon Handley 2:35 this truth. There's this truth in there that you just simply can't refute. It's irrefutable. Simply because the way that it's presented, it fucking makes sense. And you don't even recognize that it makes sense. That's how much sense that it makes sense, you don't refute it. It automatically bypasses your conscious filter. Your filter that says, Oh, no, that's bullshit. Because none of that I don't believe in Jesus, that I don't believe in the Torah. Get it? Right. So since you didn't say no. You're saying yes. This only applies and subconscious stuff, and not if he or she is asleep. Just a heads up there. So since you didn't say no, yes, it goes into your subconscious slips in there. And and then if there's any way that you can see the logic in it a second time because the material is presented repeatedly throughout the course of a period, and it's also you're also doing it within a group of other people. And you've also said, Hey, I'll keep an open mind. And I'll check this shit out. And belief has nothing to do with it yet. Belief has nothing to do with it yet. But you've accepted it in some way or another in a intellectual fashion. You said intellectually, this bucket makes sense. Okay, so once you've once you've once you've let it slip into the subconscious let it is obviously that's a loaded word. You didn't necessarily let it just fucking happen. Kinda like that one night shift has happened. And you then accept it in the mind, once you accept it on purpose, once you accept it with the intention of saying, Oh, okay. This makes sense intellectually. I'll go ahead and now I'll look for evidence of it in my life. Once you have let it slip into the subconscious, you've accepted it as a possibility. And then you begin to look for it in your life. And then it shows up. Then you experience it. Now, it's no longer just a concept. So long as a thought and intellectual practice. You've got the real life experience, according to how everything is lined up. And now, you're like, the shits real? No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no way. Unknown Speaker 6:20 No way. Brandon Handley 6:22 No fucking way. And here's, here's here's what happened. It's kind of like a story within a story within a story like a goddamn Russian nesting doll. In the class to the night, there was four of us. And we were going over this, what gets in your way? Or where do you want to be? Or what kind of shit Do you trying to accomplish in your life and what's getting in your way. And this is a class that's offered at no insubstantial amount. And it is for like CE o 's high performance professionals, people who are ambitious, people who are also seekers, I believe that in this in this group, there seem to be a lot of seekers. And again, you find what you're looking for. And there's just some incredibly well, exceptionally well known people in this group within their circles. So when we have our get together, and there are these small group breakouts, that you get together once a week, and you go over these certain concepts and ideas, when we got together. In the group of three out of four, worldwide, three of us were coaches or coaching or had a coaching practice, along the spiritual and transformational lines, just like myself, just like myself. And we're all in similar but different spots along the journey. If that makes sense. we all we all want it to move forward. And we all were looking for how to make that happen. How are you? How are you making that happen? What is the next step that you need to make so that you can experience your desires in a way that you say you would like to in your life? And that's a tough one. Because a lot of times you come up with a lot of bullshit answers to that. And you say things like, well, if I had marketing or if I have more money if this or that. A whole bunch of things come up in that. And honestly, the truth of the matter is, it's a couple of things a maybe you really don't fucking want it. Is that really what you want? Because if that's really what you wanted, wouldn't you be taking steps and action towards it? It's fair question. If you wanted it badly enough, there wouldn't be a barrier to it. We how many stories are you familiar with in your lifetime? where people have made it or done it and insurmountable Unknown Speaker 9:37 odds? Brandon Handley 9:38 They aren't even super smart seemingly. And and you're like, What the fuck is wrong with me? Why is my life like this? Or maybe that's just me and I'll take that but we I happen to find myself and this group of at least three of us at the same time brought together in like, this way there's like what are the fucking odds well Word that we're all we have the similar limiting beliefs Do we have the similar spots of being stuck in? And while we were talking, one of my suggestions was to somebody else in the group, I was like, Well, if that's really what you want in your life, then why don't you talk to somebody who's achieved it? And what are some ways start looking for? Start looking for the ways that you could achieve that for yourself, if that's what you really wanted? Because chances are, chances are, you know, certain ways. And there's certain ways and other people have done it at this point that maybe you're not willing to do, because that's just not you. Right? And again, maybe that's another one of those limiting beliefs. Well, it's got to be done a certain way. Okay, maybe, then maybe you don't want it. Right. We have to, we have to be okay to admit that to ourselves. We have to be okay to let go some shit that we said we want, that we don't want it anymore. And then be okay with that. Overall is not what I want. Just kidding. Sorry, y'all. Just because you've got a lot of mental energy ish, shit tied up in it doesn't mean that you want it anymore. And that's okay, too. So that was one of the questions that kind of popped up in the group, too, was uh, maybe maybe? Pretty sure that's what you still want? Is that really what you want? understanding what it is that you actually want is not it's not easy? Because you say, you say why don't you start working towards it? Oh, yeah, I guess I didn't want it that bad, right. And that's okay, it wasn't worth x, y, z price, there's a price that you have to pay for all these things. And that looks like money that looks like time that looks like time away from family that looks like more time with family that looks like some things that maybe you're simply not willing to do at this point in your life. Yet any rate, so there we were three of us. in similar situations, I personally feel like I'm making the progress and doing the things and taking the steps myself. I don't know if I could be doing it any harder or faster. I've hired a you know, hired marketers, I've hired people to do my branding, I've done things I think that are on brand on point selected a targeted message selected different space, like, again, spirituality for the street, spiritual dope, it's a definitely a brand, it's definitely got a targeted demographic. And you know, and, you know, in support of mental health, there's a you know, there's another reason for it, how to apply it in your in your life, so that you can have to be anything that you want beyond your limited, mortal self. some shit like that, once you incorporate overall spirituality. So that's where I come from on it. And, you know, I've even got right now, somebody, you know, working with me, PR, too, help spread the message beyond the way that I know how because guess what, I don't know how to do some of these things. And sometimes I don't want to know how I want to find somebody that specializes in it to help me. So I can accelerate to a place that I would like to be at the same time in a in organic fashion without deviating from the message without without putting the need to monetize this in such a way that it influences the message. And what I mean by that is I'm not looking for ways to press on your pain points. To say that you've got to make a move in your life and buy my product, right. I don't feel like that's 100% necessary for where I am today. And what I'm doing. So I avoid it as part of the whole stick as it were again, so that I can stay pure anyways, shared all that out with the group. And also the idea that if you want to find somebody, if you do want to take any steps like that and you want to see it show up in your life, you got to go out and you got to look for find it. And, and then the one one guy in the group, he says the other thing he said to which I stuck out in my mind, just What's on your plate? what's in front of you right now is enough, as you're making the progress that you should be making with intention with purpose. And surrendering a little bit, again in surrender means Unknown Speaker 15:15 stop trying Brandon Handley 15:16 to control all the outcomes only control, you work work on what's right in front of you right now as part of the process. And as a second part of that, this whole thing is that this is a sort of group where we're focused on creating or witnessing miracles with our life, however you want to see it. And two parts to that the odds of this group coming together are what? Three out of four of us worldwide, what are the odds of us coming together? The first answer to that, and I got this from a gentleman who's been on the show before Adam Walton been coached by him before and brought up a scene like this Tim before and just the odds of this are 100%, it had to show up in my life in such a way like this, that I would accept it, to motivate me to, to have an impact, to be noticeable to have awareness of it. So the odds are like 100%. So then the very next morning, speaking of miracles, I've got meetings that are back to back, got a little coffee shop that I want to go get some coffee for, but I don't have fucking time for it. Because I got all these meetings, and they're good meetings. I'm really, really looking forward to them. Because I'm doing some cool shit. However, I still want that cup of coffee. What I want is like this little break just in the day to change up the pace of things. And my 10 o'clock cancel, I was like, shut the fuck up. Unknown Speaker 16:53 Mariko Brandon Handley 16:54 gives me a little bit of time to run across and grab a cup of coffee. So I want to cross it and get this cup of coffee. And Funny thing is his funny on the way in. There was a dad telling his daughter stay outside with the dog goes hoppy, right? She goes, What if What if I get kidnapped? And he goes, he goes, look, I'll be I'll be back before you're kidnapped. I have asked when we walk as like to just tell her that you'll be back before she was kidnapped. Yeah, I was like, all right, just making sure I heard that. Right. And I leave the place with my coffee, and the goddamn lemon Danish because they bake them fresh there and just wanted it. That's why I've wanted I've resisted for way too long. And I go outside, walk outside. And as I'm leaving, there's a there's a dude sitting there. reading his book power versus force by David Hawkins. got two options. I can note it. That's a cool book in my head and keep walking. But I was like, fuck it. I was like, I was like, Yeah, that's a great book. I said it out loud to him. Because Yeah, I was like, What do you check it out what's happening? We get to talking. And turns out, he is a men's spiritual coach right down the street. We get to talk about different things and pieces, we can act on a lot of different things, but which is all awesome. But the big takeaways I looked at as a miracle something that you know, without that night before talking about having a coach show up to does what you're trying to do in your life. So that you can find somebody to to rap about this stuff with. Like shamwow and instantaneous the moment that you believe that something like that could even happen. Like I had to be able to believe that something like that was possible in my life, to be aware of it, to allow for it to show up. yada yada. What are your beliefs around what's possible for you in your life. And the thing with spirituality is that if you believe that you have to do it all yourself within the confines of you and your own mind. And you have to force these things yourself. What you're not allowing for is this idea of this idea of surrendering to the universe and trusting as Alan Watts said, Justin the universe as though it were another throwing your the possibility of anything that happen that is in alignment with what you're trying to do in your life. As a step towards it, whatever that is. And I'm always reminded of the quote, or the idea of you only had to see 200 feet in front of you when you're driving at night. your headlights can only see two to 500 feet in front of you. You keep driving the headlights keep on shining two to five 100 feet in front of you continues to open up, you just have to follow the road. Same concept, same idea. Same thing will happen for you and your life if you're willing for it. If you allow for it, if you follow it if if you're willing to believe you're willing to step out in faith and if you're willing to go beyond just slightly beyond your current belief system and accepted, anything is possible for what you once deemed impossible. Check it out later. Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Eric Rieger  0:00  Hello gut check project fans and KB MD Health family. I hope you're having a great day. It's your host, Eric Rieger, soon to be joined by my awesome co host, Dr. Kenneth Brown. It's Episode 59. And we have an awesome guest. This is Dr. Kristen Willeumier. She is a neuroscientist. That's right. a neuroscientist. She has groundbait goodness can talk groundbreaking, science driven plan for revitalising nourishing and rejuvenating your most essential asset, your brain. And she is the author of biohack your brain how to boost cognitive health, performance and power. It's essentially the first book to outline a strategy for COVID long hollers including those dealing with neurological issues. So you can see this is going to be an incredible episode. Let's get to our sponsors. Of course, it's artron to go to artron to calm or easy enough. Just go to love my tummy, calm and get your daily polyphenols. Guess what? This neuroscientist Dr. Wilma? Yeah, she says it's a great idea to do it for your brain. Also, we're not even making it up. So head to love my tummy, calm, pick up your own artron to today, not just for yourself, but for your family for your kids. Get them on it, protect them, given the polyphenols that they need daily artron to love nighttime e.com and of course, you can get Incredible Food unrefined bakery.com That's correct, unrefined bakery.com get 20% off of your entire first order. Just by using code, get check. That's the show that you're listening to get check 20% off your entire first order from unrefined bakery. It's incredible food. It's doesn't matter if you're keto, paleo, gluten free. And you're like me, I don't know if I can ever have an awesome tasting muffin again. Guess what they have developed incredible food at unrefined bakery. I don't know why I'm giving y'all such weird pauses in between zone my words, I guess because I'm looking at my notes and we're falling down regardless. last not least go to KB Md health.com kB Md health.com and use code GCP to take 20% off of any order, anytime. from Dr. Chris Brown's CBD or his combo signature packages, you can take 20% off of any order at any time at KB MD health calm. So just so you know is we had an episode number 59. We do an intro several minutes into a discussion with Dr. Willa Meyer. We started recording and just didn't want to lose some of the exchange that we had at the very beginning. So without further ado, here's Episode 59. With Dr. Kristen, will, Mr. neuroscientist.Unknown Speaker  3:10  Oh my god, I had a patient last night who has ulcerative colitis and fainted and just got sent to the hospital. So she's in the hospital as we speak. Her colon is horrific. her brain. When I imaged it, it's it is off the charts anxiety. And so she's sort of the perfect illustration of, you know, the gut brain connection. And was it her anxiety that led to you know, the issues with a colon in the gut? I think so. Because she's very lean and fit and thin and healthy. But I said to her last night, I'm like you need to stay in the hospital, because she didn't she didn't want to stay but she fainted. And her her colon and her. It is it is a scary, you know situation that she's going through and and then I have a patient when I found out about your supplement, who he has horrible gas and bloating. I'm talking horrific. And he follows a lot of the dietary and nutraceutical recommendations. I mean, I've he's been a patient for my god almost a decade. But I'm learning about yourself and I'm like, wait, he needs to try this. So, you know, I was curious about the efficacy and yeah, I mean, I hear I'm like oh, I have questions for you.Ken Brown  4:32  Oh yeah, we'll send you will send you our resorts and all that stuff. And yeah, the whole backstory of that what's really hilarious is because I'm I was going to do the same thing to you. Okay, because I am giving a talk to the ataxia society this Saturday. Oh, wow. I had off the record. I had sort of forgot that I committed to it and yeah, happens to be the person that started this is a very good friend of mine actually was by a med school roommate. That She allowed her to. And so her why now in life is yes, try and help those that have a taxi. And so that's why I applaud her. It's not to let you know it's a small population of people, but it's, you know, horrific for people who are only present. But the beauty is because of your book when talking about the total volume of the cerebellum versus having 50% of the neurons. So the whole talk I'm, I'm, if you don't mind, I wanted to ask before I do this, I would like to quote you in the book and sure, do some stuff and put it in the talk specifically, I would love for sure your supplements and your brain health diet and all that other stuff,Unknown Speaker  5:43  I would be honoured. And the beautiful thing about the book, you know, sometimes people ask me why I wrote it. It's like, you know, there's brain health books out there there. People know about supplements, you can go on the internet, but I am, I am blown away by what I have seen using neuroimaging. So it's like the book was really guided by what we've seen clinically with imaging. And as you saw, when you read in the book, you There was a time I didn't believe in supplements, like, Oh, my God, these really weren't yet right there. Right. Yeah. It's, it's, it's amazing. So I think, you know, probably both you and I, when you're in the profession, and you actually, you can look up all the research papers in the world. But when you see the changes in patients, and you see it, the measurable changes, whether it's imaging or whether it's your labs that you do you know, I'm a huge fan, so So, yes, please go quote, I'm happy to help you, you can email me if you have any questions.Ken Brown  6:49  I love that. Because I think that when I read your book, I was like, holy cow, we are speaking the same language here. Yeah. And the whole gut brain thing. And you know, what we should do is what that will just flow into this. Because Yeah, I think you're giving away a lot already kind of talking about everything. So here's what we're gonna do. I'm gonna Eric introduce you, but the podcast actually started about six minutes ago. Perfect. So if you're tuning in now, rewind it and do this. SoEric Rieger  7:23  a very late introduction. This is taken away, Eric. Thank you. And this is episode number 59 of the gut check project. And if you've tuned in now, you've heard an awesome guest. This is Dr. Kristen Willem your she is a neuroscientist and she created this awesome book that that will actually she wrote this awesome book that Browns been holding up here. This is biohack your brain.Ken Brown  7:49  Yay. And look how much handsomer I am with the book over my face. I love it. Okay, yeah. colour. Colour coordinated to the book as well, which I love.Eric Rieger  8:05  Definitely, he definitely has. And basically this is biohack your brain and it's how to boost cognitive health performance and power. The first book to outline a strategy for COVID long hauls, including those dealing with neurological issues, cognitive decline, and brain fog. For years. Dr. William year has worked alongside with Dr. Daniel Amen. Rahman. Amen. Amen. who published over 30 books 70 articles just to just to prove the importance of brain health. Dr. Christian, William, your thank you so much for joining us on the gundry project. And I mean, what an awesome this is the probably one of the most unique coolest kickoffs of any podcast we've had yet. Amen. Amen. Amen.Unknown Speaker  8:52  Well, well, first of all, thank you, too, both of you for inviting me to come on the podcast. I love talking to all things brain health, and gut health. And truth be told, I am a huge fan of gut health. I think brain health begins in the gut and it begins with every single item of food that you are putting into your mouth. Now, Eric gave a lovely introduction and I I should also share with your listening audience. So my background, I was the director of research for psychiatric clinic, outpatient psychiatric clinic, and I ran their clinical neuro imaging department. And so I have seen 1000s of brain scans are, by the time I left the clinic, we had over 130,000 scans. Why I love taking care of your gut and gut health is in psychiatry. One of the foundational principles we have whether we're addressing ATD ADHD, autism, anxiety, depression, OCD, PTSD, by Polar issues, the first thing we have to do is work on the eating patterns. What are the things that you are putting in your mouth? Because a lot of these psychiatric issues have inflammatory components. And where does inflammation start? in the gut? Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding. That's right. So it's really such a pleasure to come here and speak with experts today, you know, in this field, and we can have a nice sort of melding of the minds of things that you've done things that we've done to really help support people's long term health.Eric Rieger  10:35  Well, I was fired up whenever can ask if I mean, we always talk about guests we're going to bring on in. And we've been really fortunate to have some some awesome ones. But essentially, when he brought up your name, we began to delve into it the we've talked about gut brain access for real really since episode one.Ken Brown  10:54  Yeah, it's just I thinkEric Rieger  10:57  it's Cornerstone as aKen Brown  10:58  gastroenterologist. So Alright, so let me tell you a little bit about how I found you. Oh, wait, love. Okay, please. Oh, my family is a tennis family. But and I mean, like tennis family like the family is in Florida right now playing and clay court nationals, I got both my daughter and my son doing it. And we got into this huge discussion with Naomi Osaka and the French Open, said that she was going to just sit out because the anxiety of doing the press conferences and all this stuff. So it became it became a dinner table discussion with my family, because the pressures that go on with the individual sports and this and that, and so I like I do, I'm like, oh, man, I gotta like help my kids. So let's up. How do I biohack sports performance and a PDF of somebody that did this interview with the Montana State Bobcat magazine. Like, this is a great article, and I didn't read your name until the very end, you know, you know, the interview performed by Kristen Wilmore. And I was like, Who is that? look you up and I'm like, holy cow. She's got a book called biohack. Your brain just came out. I'm all about edit all about working with professional athletes. And so then that turned into I actually have a very close friend Jr, who played for the San Francisco 40 Niners for 12 years and was, was the NFL player representative for CTE for a few years. And he's still works with Steve Young, and he had his he had his zoom 50th birthday party not too long ago, and the whole, there was like 40 people on there, and it was just Hall of Famers all over. So I called Jr. And I was like, dude, you should have done this whole aim. inclement thing. And oh, yeah,Unknown Speaker  12:43  yeah. It's I'm still taking care of football players from I started back in 2009. You know, where we did our work with the first 100 players. But my God, we've had hundreds of players come in, and I've watched them over the course of time, some of them are getting better. Now, unfortunately, if you play collision based sport, and you don't really proactively take care of your brain health, you know, some of them now have ALS, Alzheimer's disease at younger ages than we see in the general population. So we start to expect to see these diseases of ageing and your sixth decade of life, seventh decade of life, but in the professional athletes, we're seeing them in their fifth decade of life. And the reason why it's not surprising and this sort of goes into my background as a neurobiologist was sort of the first 10 years of my career, I'm in the academic setting. And I'm a neurobiologist, studying things at the level of the single cell and working in Parkinson's and understanding how neurons communicate with one another, and also having a great concept of synaptic plasticity, right. We read about it in the literature, but I've actually watched my beautiful neurons make contacts with their neighbours, it's, it's really extraordinary when you have the the perspective of what synaptic plasticity is, and and the ability of these beautiful neurons, one single neuron in our central nervous system can make between 10,000 to 40,000 connections. And that's 86 billion neurons we have.Ken Brown  14:18  I just want to clarify one thing. So like when you we hear about this like, and there's been a lot of discussion about neuroplasticity. Huberman has his podcast and people are talking about it. Could you just define that?Unknown Speaker  14:31  Yeah, neural plasticity is just the ability of a neuron to make additional connections with its neighbours. So what As I was saying, one neuron can extend a branch out dentre and dendritic branch out and connect with other neurons. And the way that we sort of increase our brain capacity over time is to be able to make as many of those connections as we can. This is why as we get older, this concept of synaptic play density or neuro plasticity is just the ability of, again, a single neuron to continue making branches. And how does that happen? That happens when we learn new information. That's why it's so important to continue to learn as we age, because that's how we grow these connections. Other ways to grow new connections is through exercise. But I like the new learning piece. Because the one thing that people don't realise, and I know I tell a lot of these fun little I call them fun facts, but they're really important. Because the brain reaches full maturity around the age of 2530. After the age of 40, our brain volume, right starts to decrease about 5% per decade. So your brain volume can get smaller. And you know, that's one thing that could concern people, but it the synaptic plasticity can continue on throughout life. So that's why, you know, there's certain interventions we can do to help maintain brain volume, which is where the exercise is important. omega three fatty acids are really important. And then there's things we can do to help maintain synaptic plasticity so that we retain our memories, you know, and we have the ability to live and be centenarians and still be happy, like Betty White, who I love bringing up because the woman is 99 years old, actually, she she comes and visits people in the building that I live in here in Los Angeles. And she's beautiful, right? So I see her often. She just turned 99. And she thanked her agent, because her agent continues to give her scripts and continues to get her job. So this is a woman who is still memorising scripts at age 99. So that's somebody who is able to retain her memory. So when people who were in their 60s are like, Oh, I forget where I put things. She's actually working her memory consistently because it's a part of her job. So this is something that all of us just need to remember to do. Maybe we should all start memorising scripts, or grocery list or memory.Ken Brown  17:11  I thought you wanted to be I thought you you wanted us to become an actress. I didn't know. We've already been told that we have faces for radio. Oh, that's right. Oh my gosh. So I heard I digress. No, I love what you're saying there because the new synapses. One of the coolest, Michael Pollan, and you quoted him in his book, The I don't remember all the books he's done, but he did did a series on he just came out with a new book about some anyways, how plants interact with our synapses and stuff. He quote, he said something that kind of made sense what you're talking about, he goes, it's been described that if you imagine a, a hill, that guts that had snow on it, everybody starts to sled on it, if you if you go down enough times, eventually makes a groove. And then you sat in that groove. And by doing certain things, you need to lay some new snowdown so that you can find a new path. And that's kind of what you're describing.Unknown Speaker  18:15  That's what new learning is. It's creating new paths. And then we're, I apologise if you're hearing the lovely fire. Can you hear the fire trucks out there?Ken Brown  18:28  It's la bursting in your door, we're gonna we're gonna raise the bond money for youUnknown Speaker  18:33  might actually hear the Sons of Anarchy out there as well, sometimes. motorcycle gangsKen Brown  18:39  are a little different right now. We didn't quite have the effect in LA in New York. Yeah.Unknown Speaker  18:46  But no, he's absolutely correct. It's, you know, in neuroscience, we have this phrase neurons that fire together, wire together. And it's the circuits that get repeated the things that we do every day, the thoughts that we think the the information that we take in whether we're reading or learning something new, it's all our brain is a dynamic organ that is continuing to grow and change every single second with every input that we get light sound, what we read, right, what comes in through our visual centres, everything. So part of why I wrote this book is to make us more consciously aware of the things that are in our environment that are impacting our health and our well being and our brain health. And because most people want to figure out how to retain their memories as they age, that was another reason for the book. But really the biggest reason you you noted it is working with the athletes who are really struggling with brain issues at very early ages. And the fact that we saw we could restore brain function through various Simple dietary and lifestyle modifications that anybody listening to this podcast could do. I mean, there's, you know, we've got all the bells and whistles in the clinical setting the neurofeedback, the current transcranial magnetic stimulation, the hyperbaric oxygen therapies, you've got the IV therapies. But even doing all of those, everybody still has to do the lifestyle piece. And that's as important, as all of these other technologies that we have that for some people could be cost prohibitive, which is why I, you know, I put those things more towards the back of the book, but we can still talk about them, because a hyperbaric oxygen chamber can actually revascularize the brain. So you can grow new new vasculature. And if you think about participating in a collision based sport, like football, now, I was an equestrian. So I spent 10 years showing horses falling off of horses. So when I speak about working with athletes, they're very much I'm very connected with them, because I've had my fair share of head impacts. The difference being in football, you know, they've put accelerometers inside the helmets. And I've studied how many impacts football players are taking in high school in college. So on average, do you want to take a guess? This is kind of fun. Since I have you too. I'm going to average so guess the average number of impacts a high school football player is having per season,Eric Rieger  21:37  I would imagine it's gonna be a few 1000. I don't know though.Unknown Speaker  21:39  It's actually lower. So it's around 650. So per season. And then college is about 1300. So then, if you're talking about a football player who's played four years of high school, four years of college, you're getting about 8000 impacts. But then you've got the G force.Ken Brown  22:02  So that so the impact is now you've got bigger, stronger people. So the impact is much greater at the college level.Unknown Speaker  22:11  at the college level, exactly. So the average g force in high school is around 28 G's per impact. So you can say anywhere between 10 and impact could be as low as whatever note 10 G's as high as 150 G. So they're lower impact and high school in college, they were averaging around 68 G's.Unknown Speaker  22:33  Yeah,Eric Rieger  22:34  I got a quick question on that. I think that long ago, I heard that. Not only is obviously the increase in the impact, obviously can be more damaging, but the sheer repetitive nature of it itself is quite damaging. Even if it happens to just be over and over again, it's kind of like water torture,Unknown Speaker  22:54  you hit the nail on the head. So that's the biggest issue. It's the repetitive sub concussive impacts that are damaging the individual cells. So you get the shearing and the tearing of the axons and the cells. And they now need the time to, you know, restore back to, you know, sort of try to get back to normal function. And, of course, if you're playing a game where football players are hitting, you know, every play of the game, the lineman might have three or four impacts per play. There was a paper that came out that actually not only measured the number of impacts, but measured the linear and rotational forces. And it was I think, across both high school and college, the average linear acceleration in G forces was 188,000, g forces to the very delicate neurons in your brain, the rotational acceleration was over 3 million, like radians per second squared. So you know, somebody can go through a whole High School and collegiate career and maybe not have a diagnosed concussion, because the concussion is just a temporary alteration of mental status after an impact to the head or chest with or without the loss of consciousness. So, you know, 10% of the people might have, you know, a loss of consciousness or amnesia, but they recover quite quickly. But it's all those repetitive sub concussive impacts that you're talking about Eric that are causing the damage at the level of the neurons that are then causing the tauopathy. That's what the chronic traumatic encephalopathy is, it's just a tauopathy right, an accumulation of this misfolded abnormally folded tau protein phosphorylated tau protein, they're starting to see it first stage one CTS in the frontal lobes. And that shouldn't be surprising because football players hit the front part of their head right? The that's why they're spacey at first in the frontal lobes then stage two gets into the temporal lobes. And some parietal lobe stage three gets into the deeper cortical structures like the amygdala, hippocampus and Toronto cortex. And then stage four is now getting into the brainstemEric Rieger  25:12  changed since then, but I mean, I can remember playing and you didn't know to complain, unless, you know, unless you're injured, you know, Are you injured? Are you hurt? And that was kind of the, the thought process, you know, almost 30 years ago was to make certain that you don't complain unless you actually could show an injury. But nobody was really doing anything about brain injury that at that point in time, and I know that it's improved somewhat, but unless I'm falling down and throwing up or they feel like the spots, nobody ever stopped,Unknown Speaker  25:45  you probably went back in the game after you throw up because I've watched you watch men play sports, rugby, it's like, Okay, I'm ready to go back. And plus, you have the adrenaline. I mean, I. So I was a competitive show jumper, I had several horses, one of my horses was a thoroughbred, off the racetrack, and I the fences, I would jump were four foot three, four foot nine. And I would race at them. I mean, I was a crazy, sort of, I was a maverick, I loved it. So I and I've fallen off hundreds of times. The differences, you know, the differences with football, that's a game where the impacts are coming. You know, you've got repetitive impacts on every play. Well, you may not you may only play 12 or 14 or 16 games a season. It's also the practice games. So you if you start to read the papers and say sometimes there's 95, practice games, and then 12 games in your season. So that's actually a lot of impacts that are happening. Now. You know, I don't I don't know what is going to happen with football. And there are certainly people who you know, have an extended career. I mean, we've worked with players, one of the players that was in our study, played 12. So he went to UCLA defensive lineman, his name's Fred McNeil. He played for the Minnesota Vikings was a first round draft pick, I believe pick number 17. Played 12 seasons on the Vikings played in a Super Bowl, they never won. When he left the NFL, he went to law school, I can't remember where he went. He went to law school, graduated valedictorian of his class, then became a partner in his law firm. So here's somebody who, right high school, I think he had a 22 year lifetime, sort of risk of from playing football, so 22 years in the game, but still was able to go to law school afterwards. It was clearly really smart. At the age of 57, is when he came in to our study, and he just came in to see what his brain look like. And when we did the brain imaging, the scan showed Frontotemporal dementia. So we saw low blood flow in the frontal lobe and the temporal lobes, he did not know he had that. But he knew he was struggling with depression, he was having memory issues, but he was still working. So then we sent him to the neurologist worked with him for seven years, he ended up getting diagnosed with ALS, and passing away at the age of 63. The reason why I share his story is he's the illustration of somebody can play football, and then have a 20 year 25 year period where they're just living their life. And then all of a sudden, you have the degenerative disease hit quickly. And we know you know in the world of neurology and neuroscience and neuroimaging, we know degenerative changes happen in the brain 1520 years at the cellular level before you have a symptom. So that's what's happening with the players. It's just happening earlier, which is why I think anybody who plays a collision baseboard should be on a brain health protocol. And that's just about being really mindful about the foods you eat. You know, I really wouldn't recommend drinking a lot of alcohol. It's not great for the brain. I mean, there, there's a lot of very intuitive things, and I talked about that in the book. But you have to be serious about it if you don't want to spend your 6/7 or eighth decade of life dealing with these issues. And because I was in a psychiatric clinic, we also worked with the underlying psychiatric problems, right? That they have a greater risk of depression and anxiety. So getting those things treated, is really helpful, and sort of having a better quality of life.Ken Brown  29:38  So I just want to say this. After reading the book, I want to eat your brain right now. Because what you're talking about is so cool. But in your book, you do a step wise process to prevent this from happening. So anybody that's listening, even if you're not into the science that we're going to get into because it's it's it's beautiful. Well, I think that the, that when a neuroscientist like yourself comes from a background of research and you, you're wise to protect the brain. And my why actually, and we've talked about this is if I had one goal that I can do in my lifetime would be to prevent dementia. And the reason is, is that I believe that memories have no price, I would prefer to buy a memory than buy a thing. And I gotta teach my kids this that yes. And so as we live our life, if those memories get stolen from you, in my mind, that is, that is a life wasted in your own mind, although it isn't for the others around you, but in your own mind. So if I could do one thing, and what we are seeing in my world is gastroenterologist is that when we see Alzheimer's, dementia and Parkinson's, present with gut issues 20 years before.Unknown Speaker  30:53  So you see the 20 year language, you see the 20 year note you saw, and I wrote about this in my book, my father ended up having Parkinson's. And you will appreciate this. And I didn't really go into it in the book, but you know, he, so he's a combat helicopter pilot in Vietnam, two tours, but exposed to Agent Orange. And then was a pilot for Pan American. So of course, there's all of the exhaust and things that you're exposed to and was a fireman. But my dad six for healthy, lean fit, no issues, no Parkinson's in our family, no psychiatric issues in our family. So I found it interesting about the age of 50 is when the tremor started coming on. You know, he was diagnosed later in his 70s and then passed away at 78. But he ate very healthy My dad was one of those people who is juicing and clean eating, I feel the glyphosate, whatever, the roundup whatever's in the Agent Orange, I feel my dad's issues really stem from that. And that all eradicates the healthy bacteria in your gut. And so I really for him, I feel environmental exposure was, you know, predominant in his parkinsonian issues. And, you know, I'm, I'm really about how do we help people live their healthiest life. And in the book I go into when it comes to food, I really talked about the Mediterranean diet with a plant based, sort of, they call it plant predominant, you know, it's, I still would allow for people to have meat, but really when I was working with the player, so I talked about running a brain directed weight loss group for football players, which is really quite comical, because when, when Dr. Ayman said I was doing that I thought he was crazy. I'm like, these guys are elite athletes, they already know how to work out be lean, but they actually weren't lean. When we were working with them, some of them work because they were active players. And some of them were older, so I had to get them slim. So it would help their brain health because we know excess inflammation in the body damages the brain and we publish research on that. But where does the information come from? It comes from the food. And it comes in the gut. And this is such a great teaching moment. And I'm here because I would love to learn from you. I mean, the meat What can I just ask you? What is your stance on me?Ken Brown  33:37  My staff. So I've tried to be open minded about everything. And it's like all things. So when game changers came out on Netflix, yeah, like that's it. I'm all plant based. I'm going to be an elite athlete and I did the stupid thing which was I tried to do the meat substitutes and stuff like that, which I didn't possible burger. I didn't even well not that but whatever it was, I mean, and so then I realised that in there so I'm a big I'm gluten intolerant and didn't realise that they use gluten as fillers all sort of stuff. So that was I Eric will laugh at this pretty much everything I do I will just dive into an obscene levels now pretty much.Eric Rieger  34:23  Pretty much that's just the male brain I applaud that.Ken Brown  34:28  They come out with these scars be like don't do that. But like don't do it that way. I actually believe the way that I try to eat is mostly I'm okay with me. I tried to do grass fed grass finished beef. brasco originally, so it would My my, my dad would roll over in his grave. He was actually a butcher so it would be difficult to actually deny.Unknown Speaker  34:56  a butcher Okay, I find okay. This is really fascinating. Your dad was a butcher and your gastroenterologist, and you read books like The China Study, which talk about the inflammatory nature of meat, and how it can release the bacterial endotoxins in your gut, and that can be inflammatory. So do you recommend that people keep meat down to one meal per day? limited to once per week.Ken Brown  35:31  So this is a great jumping off point and spotlight off me real quick, because one of the things I loved in your book was chapter one was pretty much or maybe it was chapter two, where you're like, if I can ask you to do one thing, it's quit eating processed food. Yep. Yeah. So yes, I'm the same way. So when you say what do you tell your patients I, I struggle with? Let's avoid high fructose corn syrup, and saturated fatty acids. Let's get rid of those emulsifiers everything that you talked in your book? Yeah, that's hard enough to do. That's people doing that. So once you get into the it's like, a comedian was joking about it. He's like, yeah, my, my trainer neighbour was saying, maybe you're eating too much fruit as I was eating a doughnut, like, that's the problem.Unknown Speaker  36:19  Right? The more fruit gets thrown out. And I'm like, No, you need the fruit. My God, you we need the antioxidants. As you know, in your supplement, which is polyphenols, right, we need our brain needs antioxidants, we need them from the diet, I feel it's the number one way to help preserve your long term brain health. Because the there's such a delicate balance between free radical production in the brain and antioxidant capacity. And free radicals are produced just by you know, metabolism. So we need to make sure our diet in our diet every single day, we're getting antioxidants. And I sort of made when I taught the Mediterranean diet to the football players and the patients in our psychiatric setting, it was very prescriptive. And I outlined the prescriptive nature of it in the book I I should have gone into it in more detail because people really seem to like it. But I make it like a pilot's checklist with people. And I just say, Hey, here's the things that I want you to get into your diet every day. We can modify, you know, if you're loving me, you know, well, meat can be inflammatory. And people, I'm going to find a really creative way, because I want them to stick with it for a lifetime. So I have a really sort of fun way of doing upgrades, but making it work for them. But the I really had a checklist for people, it was like, you know, three green leafy vegetables per day check, you know, one orange, red or yellow vegetableKen Brown  37:52  that was that was your adaption to the it's the mediterr.Unknown Speaker  37:56  It's the Mediterranean diet.Ken Brown  37:59  But but this is but this was your adaption when, in the part of the book where you said, This is my brain health diet. And yeah, you're saying that it's the Mediterranean with a checklist, youUnknown Speaker  38:10  I gave it sort of in a prescriptive way. So people knew, you know, because like you said, everybody's unique, and they have the things that they love. And if you make it too difficult, they're just not going to do anything. And so sometimes the initial barter was, you know, if I was trying to limit somebody drinking too much coffee, and I talked about coffee in the book, because coffees a vasoconstrictor. And in the brain imaging world, we don't want to cause too much vasoconstriction. So I would make a barter, I'd say for every cup of coffee, I'd love for you to do a fresh green juice. And I would actually make it or I have, you know, sometimes they come in the clinic if I'm teaching it to a group of patients and be like, here, here's what it tastes like. You got to make it fun and accessible. So that's what I would do with following the diet. The The point being I need to get more clean, healthy nutrients in and let's try to get some of those processed foods and sugars and the things that you're very sort of used to eating out. AndKen Brown  39:15  while I was just gonna say that what's interesting when you say used to eating as zero scientist, we know that if you look at the food industry, they hire very intelligent scientists to make junk food work on your brain. I've met with food chemists, I met them. Oh, yeah. Can you expand on that?Unknown Speaker  39:35  Well, I just when we were designing supplements, sometimes you you know, you meet with people who are hired for that specific reason. And what do people love fat, sugar, salt, you know, it's very easy to put all of those things into, you know, a packaged food that's gonna sit on the shelf for however, you know, however long to be on the shelf, one of the most important things I would teach people, if anything, sometimes you just got to get down to the basics, right? Because if I can help somebody change one bad habit, we're already going to make progress. You know, sometimes my, the one habit that I would have everybody do is change how much the amount of fluids they were consuming in water. That's why I actually dedicate one chapter to water. It is so important. And I have my glass right here, you know, cheers. It's, you know, before food, sometimes I think the hydration piece is the piece that always gets lost. And when I made people chart there, how much water they were drinking, this was so fun. As a scientist, I charted everything, because I can't help somebody change something if I don't know what you're doing. And you might say, Oh, yeah, I drink enough water. And I'm like, Oh, I bet you don't. So let's, let's track how much water you're drinking and make sure you're drinking the right amount. And I would we, in my groups that I taught, I would say, let's not drink our calories. So let's get rid of all the juices, the sodas, let's just do water. And it's amazing how people who love soda, if that was the only thing they got rid of in one year, they could easily lose 20 pounds. So for me, for Burbank brain health perspective, if I'm getting you to just drink clean water every day with even if it's from your tap with a filter, fantastic. Let's get it out of a plastic bottle, because the BPA you know, from the plastics are not going to be great for your gut health. Number one, let alone your brain health. So let's try to have it in a glass. And, you know, I talk about I now get water bottled water, you know, that's actually a hyper oxygenated and slightly alkaline, I mean, you know, I can't help myself being in this field, you sometimes know too much. So you're going to go for the best. But I clean up the water, I try to get more of the green juicing in, because we know how important vegetables are. And if somebody just does not want to have a vegetable, a lot of times I can get them to do a fresh green juice that has lots of great enzymes. And you know, and we can get fruit in there. So I was really working on how do I unwind some of the really destructive habits that people just do repeatedly, you know, multiple times a day over the course of weeks, months, years, that are not really serving you. And that was I think that was the fun part of teaching those groups. It's like, Oh, my God, I Wow. And not only do I change their habits, then they're dropping weight like crazy. That's why I put a bunch of stories in there about people that had lost over 100 pounds. With me not. That's not even my area of expertise. And it was just happening becauseKen Brown  42:47  I mean your areas to change habits, which is changing brain, that'sUnknown Speaker  42:52  my area, my area of expertise is brains and brain imaging. But I you know, it was this really fascinating experience of watching people change their diet and very quickly lose weight. And seeing people who were in their 50s and 60s who didn't even think they could lose 10 pounds, lose 60 pounds in a year. Like, wow, I just shifted a few things in your diet, you just you I'm a cheerleader, probably like you. So I get really excited for people success. So I'm sure there was a synergy between myself and the players and the patients I work with and the you know, let's help you clean up the foods you're eating. And you know why they're important, especially because everybody that I work with, you know, to psychiatric clinic, we're also working to improve their mood. And the only way we can do that is by cleaning up those foods. Right, bringing the saturated fats down trying to bring down the saturated animal fats, bringing in more of the mono and polyunsaturated right healthy fats from plants and marine based, you know, omega threes and just it's about fruits, vegetables, legumes, nuts and seeds, Whole Foods. It's not hard.Eric Rieger  44:09  I got a quick question for you. Yeah, mentioned the green juice. Yes. And the you've mentioned also a few times that there may be technologies that may not have access because of cost. And for some people even time, right, you've mentioned green juice a couple of times what was an ideal green juice for someone to make at home.Unknown Speaker  44:28  I love that. You know I mentioned green juice so much I started doing it 20 years ago. So I'm 4848 Now, every single day I've done some kind of green juice. Now I throw beets in it as well because I think it's an easy way to get a red you know something red in there. But I tell people just think green you know the base is typically celery or cucumber. And then you add kale, parsley, spinach edge, all throw in. I love pear So I put in a boss pair sometimes I put an apple in, sometimes they put a red bead in. The reason why I mentioned it is not only is it hydrating, so I drink usually 32 ounces of juice. So this morning, I start my day with two eight ounce glasses of water. The first is a water is clean water the second I usually put a little lemon in, then I do my juice, which is 32 ounces. So I you know the hydration is really how I like to start my day. And I feel that the juicing over time and I'm asking you the gastroenterologist and I've read about this, I'm actually priming my gut with these very healthy, nourishing enzyme rich fluids because the polyphenols and the vitamins and the nutrients that are in the greens are critical for your gut health and every single food you eat. Correct is helping to populate either good or bad bacteria. Dr. Brown?Ken Brown  46:04  Yes. Read in your book when I told my patients to do this. And they said, What do you mean by green? I'm like, I don't know if it's green. Just do it. And so then they were like I'm doing green m&ms. I'm doing green Skittles with thisUnknown Speaker  46:16  Skittles.Ken Brown  46:16  So maybe I should have looked more into what you meant by the greens. Thank you for asking that question, Eric. Yeah, IEric Rieger  46:22  just wanted to set you straight because I knew this was a problem.Ken Brown  46:25  My patients were gaining weight, and they're just like, I'm like, so what are you doing now? They're like, I do one sprig of spinach, one sprig of kale and green m&m.Eric Rieger  46:33  Yeah, I was doing today. green juice out of a sour patch. And I got diabetes. Yeah.Unknown Speaker  46:40  I'm coming after you, Dr. Brown. Yeah. You know what, I had fun having the football players do it, they all the coolest thing about working with pro athletes is they will do anything you tell them. And because they trust me, so I'm like, Come on, guys, here's what we're going to do, right, to get them to lose weight, I had to the volume of food that they were eating each day was around 4500 calories. So first of all, we're, you know, we're not at training table anymore. So you know, bring that down. And I did sort of the creative thing where, you know, if you can keep your meals from 500 calories, you know, if you can, you can have a burrito, that's 2000 calories. That's, that's a whole day's worth of calories in one meal. So I would creatively say, hey, whatever you're eating at noon, let's cut it in half and have your first part at noon, I say, you can have your second part at 130. If you're still hungry, and I did that at dinner, I said dinner, you can have your dinner, whatever at seven, and then at 815, if you're still hungry, you can have the other half. So you have to get I just had so much fun being creative with how in all my players were losing weight, so players were losing weight. And my mentor was like you're teaching this in our psychiatric clinic, I'm like I am okay. And it just kept going. It was this really beautiful. Because watching people change their foods, their bodies change, I knew their brain health would change for the better. And then we used the nutraceuticals. For the for the pro athletes, really to help support blood flow to the brain boost certain neurotransmitters, right? that are really important in memory. Because most people don't realise after the age of 40 is when our neurotransmitters, systems, we don't tend to make as many and that's how we start getting diseases like Parkinson's, that's the dopamine, you know, system is not functioning as optimally as it could and, you know, all simers, you know, we're talking about acetylcholine. So, you know, I mentioned in my book, you know, everyone over the age of 40 would probably be smart to take a whole food multivitamin, just for your brain health. So there was a nutraceutical component here. That was again very helpful for the players, but the goal being to really help improve perfusion to the brain and, you know, help to you know, omega three fatty acids, for example, are really important in building the cells, the neurons in your brain and for that synaptic plasticity, you need to have the building blocks which are in the omega three fatty acids.Ken Brown  49:25  Yeah, and in your book you do a fantastic job of describing these are your basics. This is the the first line startingUnknown Speaker  49:32  lineup starting Yeah, kind of made it a fun word analogy, like starting lineup where you know, here six, basic nutraceuticals pretty much everybody can take them. You know, I always tell people run this by your doctor. I mean, I was the director of nutrition in nutraceuticals. So not only was I responsible for helping to create and study the efficacy of these products using brain imaging, but I worked with our psychiatric A population who is trying to get off of medications and using nutraceuticals as a way to support their, you know, manage anxiety, depression add. So this is why I really became a fan of them because I saw how effective they could be. And if we could do a nutraceutical approach versus a medicine that has more side effects. A nutraceutical approach is sort of a wiser way to go. But then you started to see, okay, here's your starting lineup, the basics everybody could do, I did what I call all star team. So if you want to take your nutraceuticals to the next level, here's, you know, five other things that I think are really important. And then what I did what I call the injured reserve, which is, these are the nutraceuticals, we use for patients with brain imaging, or I'm sorry, with brain injuries, or say you had chemotherapy, and you have chemo brain, you know, or we're working on, you've had a toxic exposure, too much alcohol, these are the things that can help to restore blood flow to the brain.Ken Brown  51:06  What I loved about it is that you addressed initially, that you understood that people may not have the resources to get these, right to get these supplements. And then in addition to that, at each end of the paragraph, this is what you need to look for in the supplement which was awesome. Also, I was gonna do this. Yeah, look for GMP look for this, you if you're going to get a fish oil, look for the symbol for non mercury and this and that, that was beautiful. so that people can do their homework and not just walk into target, and go, Oh, this is what I'm going to grab our Walmart or whatever, and I'm right. But um, you know,Unknown Speaker  51:40  thank you for that. It's, you know, it's really hard. You walk into a whole foods and you have just sort of the shelves that are lined with nutraceuticals. And you just don't know, what do I take? What don't I take the you ask the person there who's working there? Hey, which one's good? And I because I've seen how these things work in our patients and know the levels. You know, it's very nuanced. And, you know, prior to being in the brain imaging space, I you know, I wasn't really using nutraceutical so I have a very, I really appreciate how they work in the brain. And a consistent use of certain nutraceuticals over time can really support brain health. And I think more people, even those who are on the fence. I've watched some doctors who work more in that sort of traditional medic Western medical world who I know a lot of them still aren't on the nutraceutical bandwagon. But I've seen the older doctors who are in their 70s or 80s, pretty much everybody starts taking a nutraceutical at some point for their joints. I mean, omega three fatty acids and our NFL population when we started just giving them they had a minimum of two grammes of fish oil per day, they started to have less joint pain. Because omega threes are anti inflammatory. They're like, Wow, I didn't even know that. So it's some of these little things that I think are really very valuable.Ken Brown  53:14  Absolutely. There's one thing that I do want because I need your help on this. Yes. After reading your book, so I'm a I'm a morning habit person, and I'm an evening habit person. Yes. And my OCD wife nuts that I will do the same thing, which well,Unknown Speaker  53:31  really, I would think she'd like that as a person of ritual.Ken Brown  53:34  ritual. It's how I how I end the ritual that bothers her. So for instance, I have tea every night, I've candle meal tea, but I hate enormous Amazon mug, and I will make it and I will sit and after a long day and we'll try and watch some TV. And inevitably I'll start dozing off and she'll fall asleep. Just go to bed and I will drink about this most of the tea. And then she gets mad at me. She's like, you waste all this to you after reading your book. I'm like, No, no, no, no, no. Dr. William, you're said after a night of sleeping, you have not had anything to drink. That's when I'm going to get up. That's why I make it so I can wake up and then I chugged my tea in the morning. So that's where I start my hydration process. You do i do do the Kevin meal tea in the morning as well. I do that. Not a health reason. But just because I don't want to be yelled up on the wife. I love eventually I will drink that.Unknown Speaker  54:27  I love how she's like, okay, we're gonna make sure all of this tea gets drunk, do not fall asleep and not finish that tea. And I love it that it works very well for you as a sleep aid.Ken Brown  54:39  Well, I think working really hard throughout the day, we're probably well, you know,Unknown Speaker  54:45  I'm so coming from psychiatry, like more than 50% of people need help with sleep. It's just such a common thing. I was like, oh, it really works well for you. You're just exhausted. But they came a meal teas probably helping toKen Brown  54:59  say Hearing scientists and writing books and everything you just fall asleep. Yeah.Unknown Speaker  55:06  tell you something in our household. My husband is the real sensitive sleeper. He was super like, wakes up. He can wake up with me breathing like I could breathe too loud. He's like, Uh huh. And I fall asleep anywhere and everywhere. It's like a full shutdown.Ken Brown  55:23  You know, what I think is going on with your husband that maybe you could comment that is okay. Your book? I believe? He has a large amygdala. Oh, yes. He probably. Yes, that chapter on that. And the whole amygdala thing, because I have Eric. We watched free solo with Alex hormone huddled hahnel. Three. Oh, have you seen free solo? No. Oh my gosh. Oh, my gosh. Oh, my gosh. Okay. So basically, it's a movie about a guy who climbed El Capitan, with no gear at all, totally free solo.Eric Rieger  56:05  He does it all the time.Ken Brown  56:06  First person ever do it, and he just completely. But what was amazing is that he fell one time and it was a documentary. So his friend was, Oh, my, they didn't, you're gonna love this. They did an MRI on him. And they found that he has a little tiny amygdala, I no fear. No fearUnknown Speaker  56:23  can probably if I'm probably impulsive, like there's that in our frontal lobes, you know, I think having a lower frontal lobe function might make you more impulsive and more of a risk taker. We see that with firefighters and police officers. I mean, what, what sane human being wants to run into a burning building like my father or, you know, be a chopper pilot in Vietnam? And, you know, yeah, I'm just going to go down and, you know, drop some people out picks up people, or a police officer or a free climber who has no gear and feels perfectly comfortable in that position. Somebody who, well feels very, you know what, that's somebody who does not fear deathKen Brown  57:09  100% now? Uh huh. So he's a complete, unique individual. But in her book, you described how cortisol affects the amygdala can you get into that a little bit?Unknown Speaker  57:21  Well, and how cortisol affects our brain, in general, my God, too much cortisol. So we have glucocorticoid receptors, a lot of them on our hippocampus, the area of the brain that is critical to learning and memory. So when we have chronic, unrelenting release of cortisol, like probably like most of us have done during the global pandemic. You know, our big our hippocampus can shrink. And we were talking about neuroplasticity, and synaptic plasticity, that that absolutely stops. So you have lower amounts of what we call BDNF or brain derived neurotrophic factor, which is what we need to help grow new neurons. Or that'sKen Brown  58:07  another question, we're gonna talk about that next, just grow new neurons, neurons, because that was new to me. I was taught in med school, we can't do that. Okay, sorry,Unknown Speaker  58:15  course you were taught in med school. No, but now we know the hippocampus, you can grow new neurons until you're 90. And I'll tell you, we need them in the hippocampus By that time, because, you know, I've seen a lot of, you know, we do volumetric, MRI, hippocampal, MRIs on people who are older with dementia, and you see that, you know, they shrink to the 14th percentile or fifth percentile. And then you wonder, you know, 100%, is where we want it. And, you know, as we age, that structure shrinks. And, you know, so I know, I'm getting off topic, I'm talking about the hippocampus, it's really important, because if we, if we don't maintain the hippocampal volume, we aren't going to be able to take all of the things that we learned during the day that are in our short term memory, all the new things, when we sleep, we take that information, and we consolidate it into our long term memory, but it has to go through the hippocampus. And so it's really essential that that region of the brain, we want to continue to work it and continue to do the things to help those neurons grow. And that's exercise and new learning. Those are like the two amazing ways to do it. But back to our friend who's the free climber. So you're talking about stress and he clearly hasKen Brown  59:32  well i was i always joked with Eric that I feel like when we watched him do this and I'm just like he's got no I feel like my amygdala is like, pushed it's like it's so large. Yeah, pushing my cerebral low becauseUnknown Speaker  59:44  emotionally You're right, that amygdala gets activated during emotionally charged events. And that's what what makes it grow. So the amazing thing are the people who are able to find their centre are to be calm and to keep, you know, cortisol levels down. And my I will tell you my father was the combat helicopter pilot, he used to tell me when he was younger, he never feared dying in Vietnam, the only thing he feared was that if he died, his parents would have lost their only son. He loved it. He absolutely loved being a pilot loved it. He's like, I wouldn't even know all the death that he saw and getting shot at. And his funeral actually said, my dad took the you know, they give you the vest that you wear the bulletproof vest, he folded it sat on it, because all the firing was coming up underneath the chopper. Oh, but here's, I wish my dad was lead because he's so lovely. Just had just the beautiful spirit kind heart. And he taught me about not being afraid. He just, we can decide how we want to view things in life. I think the gentleman who's the free climber was probably not afraid of death. If he fell, he would he would fall doing something he loved. So I just think he, in his mind, his perspective on things such that, hey, I'm going to go out and have fun. I love doing this, right? It gets my adrenaline going. It makes me happy. It's my joy. It's my passion. And so, you know, he had no fear any trusted himself. He's done enough climbs with all of his gear, that he's like, I've done this, right. He's repeated the pathways. Remember you were talking earlier about Michael Pollan talking about what's you know, synaptic plasticity, and it's like going down the, the fresh snow and the sled and you keep repeating that, you know, event so that those tracks are really strong in the brain? Well, this gentleman clearly had done that as well. And he had confidence in himself. So it's more his levels were probably down, butKen Brown  1:01:57  it's so on that same line, when we're talking about repeating yourself and the tracks. Yeah, in chapter eight, you have a great chapter about controlling your emotions, both negative and positive thoughts and rumination and preventing that rumination? Can you talk about that, because that was the first time I've seen a neuroscience approach to what I would almost consider some form of meditation.Unknown Speaker  1:02:20  It is what you know, most of us don't really reflect on the thoughts that we have, you know, and thoughts. Some of them come from internally, and some of them, you know, we just get from the people that were around. That's why I also think it's really smart. As we get older, we're selective on the people that we keep company with. Because sometimes, you know, there's the people that make us happy. And then there's the people that don't write that irritate us. You get that thought cycle. And you're like, ah, but in I write the chapter on thoughts, because, again, I worked in the field of psychiatry, and what is what do we tell people have anxiety or depression, you know, anxious, people are fearing the future. depressed people tend to be thinking about the past. Oh, put rumination, ruminating thoughts. People who have ruminating thoughts, sometimes those are the ones who have the OCD, right? There's, there's a neurobiological wiring in certain people's brains where they can't get off the feedback loop. And what I've learned, this is why I talk about meditation. If you are one of those people, with there's many ways to help address thoughts. I mean, you can talk to a therapist and sort of talk through them, you know, you can take them out of your head and write them on paper. That's why journaling works for some people, or the meditation process, the whole goal of meditation is to it's, it's like observing a thought it's, you're supposed to just let the thought come through and leave come through and leave not hold on to it. We've got techniques like EMDR, they're different therapies that we can do to work with people to help them resolve a trauma or get through a negative thought. Because if you're a firefighter, and you know, you've lost a comrade, or you've, you've watched somebody die, I mean, that's a traumatic experience your amygdala is going to get, it's going to it's going to grow, your cortisol levels are going to be up and you might have a form of PTSD. And you may relive that memory. It's why sleep is so important, because sleep is one of the times our brain can actually work through those emotions. We actually does it while we're sleeping. So we're able to then get up in the morning and be able to sort of process it. So thoughts are really you know, they happen, you get 50 to 70,000. And they're just happening second by second by second. It's what we hold on to which thoughts that we're going to hold on to or let go. So meditation is the process of allowing things to just flow and to be in the present moment, not worrying about Future, not worrying about the past being here like I'm here with you to right now and fully present completely engaged, totally entertained to her awesome. And that's what we have to teach people to do is to live more in the now and not fear the future or stay stuck in the past, but I have, I have such compassion for people because sometimes there's the neurobiological wiring of the brain keeps people in these certain patterns. For example, you might have in your family, you might have OCD, or anxiety disorder. So to tell somebody with an anxiety disorder not to let your thoughts bother you. Well, that's, that's a wiring that they have. And we may need to do use some supplements like gamma to calm that region down. We might want to use some neurofeedback to help teach your brain to kind of calm that wiring down. Um, there are certain foods that you can eat, right, that can help release gabbeh that can calm that down, you can work with a therapist, so we have all of these modalities to help people redirect their thoughts. But the most important thing and I think you've probably learned that from the chapter is that our thoughts impact our body impact our physiology, right, our thoughts can increase our cortisol levels, like I could be sitting here talking to you right now and be super nervous. I'm not because you're, you two are so lovely. And it's a lot of fun. But in my mind, I could work myself up and get myself anxious and my heart rate goes up and my blood pressure goes up, my cortisol goes up, and then my gut could get all, you know, butterfly. So that's the power of our mind. AndEric Rieger  1:06:44  I was gonna ask you, do you think because what you're outlining when you talk about somebody who suffers from anxiety, or really any type of issue? Oh, do you think they're we're going to get to a point where when someone goes in for an element of depression, or anxiety, etc, it's going to be more mainstream at some point, that we begin to go through their diet history, their exercise history, and you said to yourself being present. So when you're with someone, are you putting your phone down all of these different things, before we leap into a prescriptive measure? Because it seems as if over the last 40 years, reaching for the pill, is it's just been the easy, quick fix. And in ultimately, what we're learning over the last four decades is that'sKen Brown  1:07:31  That's no way to live. Before you comment, I just want to say what's happening right now in the medical world is that in an intake evaluation, when you go to a primary care doctor, they are obligated to, to check certain boxes so that they can Yeah, when is this depression questionnaire? And if they score a certain amount? Yeah, they'll address it in the addressing is always or I shouldn't say always, almost always are often when they score a certain number if you if you're meeting certain metrics you against it. And the way to address it is by giving an SSRI, you are you obligated to do that? So it's like a DSM five. This is more of the primary care thing. So I see these when they come to me because yeah, as as you've already, you know, as you've already pointed out, I I the backwards, I don't think I ever treat a gut without treating a brain and the brain without treating the gut. So well. Yeah. But what Eric is saying is exactly right. So I just before you commented, I want you to know that the medical industry is sort of encouraging this pharmaceutical approach,Unknown Speaker  1:08:41  I have compassion, and I can sort of put myself in everybody's shoes. You know, I have a unique perspective, because I worked in a psychiatric clinic where we do brain imaging on patients. And the reason why is the kind of patients that were coming into our clinic have complex comorbid psychiatric disorders. So they've typically failed. Three previous psychiatrists, they have on average, three to four psychiatric diagnoses are on five to six meds, and they're still struggling. So we use quantitative eg, and, you know, functional imaging to see what's going on. How is their brain working? And how can we use the most natural approaches first, and we can see based on the way the wiring is, which medications are going to be better? Do they need an SSRI? Do they need an snri?Ken Brown  1:09:32  I'm so sorry to interrupt you, but what you just said is fascinating to me. You said based on the imaging, you can choose what corrections Oh, yeah, you count. That's a whole nother podcast. It was gosh, oh, yeah. And I really didn't have room in the book to get into that. But that raises the book.Unknown Speaker  1:09:52  Yeah. The book is about inspiring people to take better care of their brain health and talking about what we did with a football player. And how we were able to restore some function in their brain. But this is, yeah, I have compassion because I understand doctors who see patients, you know, there's the standard anxiety medications. There's the standard psychiatric depression, anti depressant medications. And you're basically just trying to figure it out, like which box Am I ticking, right? If you want an snri, you want to give that to somebody who has a DD symptoms, and depression, right? Because you want to stimulate and calm the brain simultaneously. Whereas an SSRI you want to give if we're just working on calming the brain, li

Hung out with Eric Nies on this episode to better understand his journey and a bit more about plant medicine as well as our connection to the self! A little bit about Eric: Eric Nies is best known as the teen idol from MTV's “The Real World/New York,” the first ever reality show launched in 1992, and the host of one of the world's most watched dance program, “MTV's The Grind,” viewed in over 90 million homes around the world. “MTV's The Grind” became so popular that Eric released “The Grind Workout” a multi-platinum video series. For the following 10 years, Eric made numerous appearances on talk shows, MTV programs including “Real World Challenges,” movies, as well as appeared in magazines and advertising campaigns. As one of reality television's biggest stars, Eric was inducted into the Television Hall of Fame as one of the “Pioneers of Reality Television.” Throughout his career, Eric's greatest passion has been to help people, children, and the planet. He has started numerous organizations, movements, and projects to help build awareness for health and well-being for all life on earth. Connect and follow Eric's journey over at his website: https://iamericnies.com/ as well as on instagram @ericnies333 Brandon Handley 0:41 Hey there spiritual dope. I am on there today with Eric nice, Eric has a he's got what I would call like, you went through like this kind of like a fame addiction, right? Like the fame tunnel kind of came out of that back in the day with a you know, empty V's real world, one of the you know, one of if not the first kind of reality TV show that was going on out there. But since then, you have taken this just incredible journey into like, the spiritual realm, all the way from like, you know, the Korean martial arts masters through like, you know, you've got your hooked up down there in Peru, right with some of these some medicinal practices, Native American practices, and like, these things are super exciting. And he's really glad to have you on here today, Eric Nies 1:36 man. Yes, thank you very much for having me. Sure. Brandon Handley 1:40 So one of the things that I always start this podcast off with is the idea is that we're vessels for source, right. And that source is kind of flowing through us at all time. And the idea is that somebody listened to this podcast today. And like I told you, like, so you're gonna change somebody's life today, just by showing up. Eric, right by being on this podcast. And there's a certain message is coming through you that can only be delivered through you to that person. What would you say that messages today? Eric Nies 2:12 acceptance. Total acceptance of yourself. Unconditional Love of yourself, relationship that you have with yourself is probably the most important thing in somebody's life. Yeah. Brandon Handley 2:31 What would you say? The that journey kind of look like for yourself? getting to that point? Eric Nies 2:37 Oh, wow. It's been many, many years. And I've been on a spiritual journey, probably for about 30 years of my life, starting, you know, hero's journey, for me, you know, that just going through many valleys of darkness. Going into these places, you know, into the shadow and into the ego and into the fears and the judgments and the insecurities and all those things that we carry around, you know, with us and, you know, to just go in into the darkness to be able to come out in the lake. I think that's what, you know, my journey pretty much has been all about. Now, for sure, would you Brandon Handley 3:27 happen to have like, any moment where you feel like you really grasped onto the idea of self acceptance? Eric Nies 3:34 for yourself, I've had many, many, many moments. Yeah. Probably about 10 years working with iwoca, and mushrooms. With the passing of meditation, just really wanting to understand how to liberate the soul from from its own suffering. But it wasn't until I started looking into the depths of ancestral lineage programming, and going back into my past lives, to understand you know, why I feel the way that I feel today? What What is, what is my life mean? What, what is the purpose of my life? Why am I here? Where did I come from? Where am I going? Now? What's the bigger picture of why we're here on planet Earth? I don't think many people really have an understanding of, of why we're here. I think you know, that that question lingers in every human's mind. You know, why are Why are we here? You know, who am I? Sure, yeah. Unknown Speaker 4:55 What's your answer so far? What have you landed on to this point? Eric Nies 5:00 I think we're all part of a grand experiment between light and dark, kind of like a game. I think it's, you know, it's an experiment that's been going on for a long, long, long time. And I think darkness has has won most of the time, and I believe that there's been resets, you know, I think that's why we see, you know, ancient remnants of ancient civilizations. And so, yeah, I just think it's a game, and how, and how do you play the game is really what it's all about? Sure. So Brandon Handley 5:38 like, kind of the idea of you are the creator, almost of the game that you're playing? would you would you put it like, into that term? Eric Nies 5:46 Absolutely. Okay. I mean, we are, you know, we're infinite potential creators, we're obviously creators, because we can create another life. So we're constantly, you know, creating the life that that we're experiencing. Right? So yeah, for sure. We're creators. Brandon Handley 6:07 And we say, like, kind of a reset you thinking like matrix resets? type deal? Eric Nies 6:12 I think of, you know, yeah, entire reset of a civilization, you know, looking back to Egypt and Atlantis and the Maria and all these ancient civilizations that were, you know, thriving at one point or another, right, but something happened. And now, where did they go? Right, like, Brandon Handley 6:33 just the total reset there, um, the, the Grandmaster that you hope hooked up with. And for those of you tuning in, I would recommend just kind of go to, I'm Eric nice and read some more of his story, because I'm gonna, we only have 30 minutes. So I'm gonna dig into some of the questions I've got about your story. Right? So when you hung out with the Grand Master, then this is just more tongue in cheek than not, but like, Did he give you an answer for the pyramids? Eric Nies 7:01 That's a great question. Yes. What did he say? Brandon Handley 7:06 Yeah, what was the answer on that one? Eric Nies 7:09 I mean, they moved. A lot of, you know, ancient civilizations such as Egypt. Their minds were very, very powerful. You know, and we're talking about an infinite possibility of consciousness. You know, we do we kind of live in a society, and in a world now where we're actually accessing that very, very small amounts of of that and actually utilizing consciousness. You know, or not utilizing consciousness the way that it it actually could be used. But yeah, my grand master was, was really profound, he could do things that would just blow your mind. Brandon Handley 8:00 Very hard to believe. And I let me I love that story, too. Because it makes like, I'm like, that just seems like the ultimate experience. I mean, like, I've watched a lot of Kung Fu, but I never got to have that experience. Like, you know, where the guy goes and gets to stay with the Grandmaster. And like, you did the things that are like, truly like Moody, yes, but this was like, that was your life, and it was legit. And I think that that, like, really cool. So you've been on this journey? I mean, you know, 20, almost 30 years now. Right? Um, one of the things that I think is really cool is that you're using some of this plant based medicine to help people with their addiction recovery. Could you walk me through what that might look like? If I came up to him like, hey, Eric, I'm ready. I'm ready to kick the habit. Let's go on this journey. Can you tell me a little bit about what that may look like? Eric Nies 8:44 Yeah, sure. Well, I mean, on the physical level, if you have to, obviously detox the physical body, from the chemicals and the drugs, that person's using in those things, they come with a heaviness, a frequency and a vibration that is much heavier. You know, then you are in your air, fire, water and earth, Earth shoot Earth suit. You know, so on the physical side of things, you have to go through a very deep detox, you know, once we go through the physical part of it, and then we get into the emotional and psychological reasons for why you are addicted. Where does that come from? What's the root cause of your addiction? And so then that gets into the subconscious mind that gets into your childhood that gets into traumas, and all different things that have happened to you not only in this life, but in your past lives. Understand why you behave the way that you behave. And we look at the emotional content of your behavior. Why do you behave the way that you behave? And are your emotions controlling you? Or are you controlling your emotions? And so then you have the physical, the emotional and the psychological and the bring them all together, and it becomes a spiritual journey. But the real understanding is, you know, ancestral lineage programming, you know, how were you imprinted and program from these behavior patterns from your family? Brandon Handley 10:33 And you do like you say, you kind of you kind of goes down like this quantum cellular reprogramming level. Can you talk a little bit more, share a little bit more about what that's like? And you know, what goes into that? Eric Nies 10:47 You're talking about quantum cellular, I think you're talking about the cyber Brandon Handley 10:51 skin. Is that is that what I'm talking about? Because Yeah, there it is the quantum cellular balancing. Right? Yes, about that. Eric Nies 10:57 That's a Tesla technology. That was a device that was created by a German physicist that uses, you know, quantum quantum physics to to help to heal the body. But that that's outside. Brandon Handley 11:12 Yeah, sorry. That's outside of the addiction recovery. Like that's something separate from that. Eric Nies 11:17 Yeah, that that that was a business that I was a part of, of my business, I would use it sometimes for rehabilitation, but it's not really necessary. The real key is getting to the root cause of the issue. Once you find the root cause of the issue, then the addiction is over. Right. Now, what about Brandon Handley 11:41 plant medicine involved? The Addiction Recovery? Is that a part of the process as well? Eric Nies 11:48 Yeah, can be amid the program that I created, which is called the beauty way, which I've been using for about 15 years. Plant medicine is not a part of that. But in some cases, if there's a lot of resistance, and they need to, like break through the different things that are happening with the individual plant medicine could be very, very beneficial. Like I was gonna actually does the work for you. So my program would be bringing somebody into the desert for three to four weeks. It's it's all natural superfoods breath, work, grounding, meditation, you know, really diving into, you know, that person's childhood. But with Iosco you just drink Iosco, what I call the rails. Yeah, hold the rails and attend the shows everything. Brandon Handley 12:46 You fair fair enough. Yeah. Um, you know, one of the things that I think, you know, I read your documentary, and I listened to something you were doing last year doing this, you know, taking in this plant medicine, right? He's, I think it was like three, three plants that you were you know, getting to know, right, you had to know me no loud music, no sex with yourself or anybody else. Like I mean, is that journey complete? Where are you at in that process? Eric Nies 13:16 Um, yeah, that's a data that I was on for about a year you diet these specific plants, either for healing or for the transfer of knowledge. But yeah, my my idea to is it's close since then. Brandon Handley 13:35 would you would you mind sharing Would you be able to share the plants that you can you did the journey with and what some of the takeaways were with that? Eric Nies 13:43 Yeah, absolutely. The the first two that I dieted for eight months was run Akita and swell the can swelled up, and when Akita is, is actually a tree, and it assists you with rage and anger and swell the welder is a plant and that's more for a heart opener also swelled as well the console is used to help heal your, your skeletal structure. So I had issues with my spine, I had a couple of slipped slipped discs that I that I wanted to work on and so they suggested swell that can swell the for that and then read Akita was for rage and anger that I was holding on to from traumas in my childhood. And morosa is the third plant that I diet and she's considered the queen of the aquatic kingdom. And she she's more of a heart opener as well. She's very beautiful and loving and kind and so my process was to heal from the traumas in my life and the plants helped me to do that. And that At the same time, they helped me to open up my heart and to, you know, walk a life of beauty and unconditional love with no judgment. Brandon Handley 15:13 I think that's really cool. I think that first one, the rage release or one, I think that needs to be sold like in bulk right across, like, across the country, right? I think we could all use a little bit of that. And I want to kind of flip back to, right before you got into this space, you know, as you were doing like a bunch of book club and and, you know, the club music accuracy and all this other stuff. You know, seems like back in the early mid 90s. I was in the same scene, right? Similar scene, you were you were leading the scene. I was like, you know, showing up? But like, do you would you attribute any kind of like, you know, the music or any of like, the interaction it that time and space in place to get you to where you are today? Because I think, you know, Oh, yeah, yeah, if you're part of like any of the rave culture or anything like that, that was going on, it was all about like some of this stuff that we're talking about right now. Eric Nies 16:16 I've had some incredible experiences in the club scene with ecstasy and ketamine and mushrooms and and all that. I mean, yes, I was still in a deep house said. So my vibe is more deep soulful house music. But if you are familiar with deep soulful house music and the where that originated from, you know, came from basically from churches in Chicago. And so very deep spirit, as a very deep spiritual side to the type of house music that I listened to. Right. And the messages are very, very spiritual. So it it assisted me keeping me alive and almost killing me at the same time, but the messages in the music really inspired me and opened up my mind to go on my spiritual journey. Yeah, so Brandon Handley 17:23 the curious about that, right. Because I agree with you, there's that there's that whole soulful, you know, vocal house music fan myself, right. And the messaging like you're talking about, it's like, it's uplifting, it's soulful. And you know, if I can dance it out a little bit, like, I'm okay with that at the end of the day, right? versus like, I don't know, some of the other messages that you get from somebody. So just it was just curiosity piece. Um, so the last kind of part of your documentary left us with you getting connected with this like Angel guy, right. And just kind of like this felt like there was a felt like, there was a cusp of transcendence happening right there. We want to talk a little bit about, you know, where we left off, and Eric nice documentary online, and, you know, kind of what's happened after that? Eric Nies 18:16 Yeah, that's it, that guy's from Australia. And he mastered john, he communicates with angels. And I, a friend of mine invited me to go to his event. And I went, and then at the end of the event, they just by choice, they choose a couple of people that can go sit with him. And, yeah, just by chance, he, he chose me, and I can't really remember exactly, he was, it was just, I get a lot of confirmation, you know, intuitively, being on a spiritual journey, I have a lot of psychics and a caustic readers and mediums and grandmasters and shamans. And, you know, my life is just really about angels and demons. And so I get little bits of information about my life, about my path and my purpose and all those things, you know, year after year after year after year. So he was just another another guy, another healer that came into my life that was you know, reaffirming and confirming, you know, a lot of things that happened to me in my life, and from my life purpose. Brandon Handley 19:42 I gotcha. So, as I'm kind of reading your story, I'm thinking of like you mentioned, Joseph Campbell's like, you know, the, the hero's journey right earlier. I'm thinking of like, you know, also just kind of surrendering yourself right to whatever kind of comes your way Way, has that been a big part of what you've done? Just kind of surrender to it and follow your bliss? Eric Nies 20:08 Oh, absolutely. I mean, really, at the end of the day of the hero's journey, you put all of your trust into source into God, and trust that, you know, your soul, set things up a certain way. And by, you know, surrendering, you know, you, you actually can make your life a whole lot easier and a lot more magical. If you just get out of the way. Brandon Handley 20:40 For sure. Absolutely. Eric Nies 20:42 I mean, that's really the biggest problem for most is the mind getting in the way, and creating judgment, creating these stories that are not even real. So, you know, identifying your fears and your judgments, and being able to work through those and heal your you know, heal the inner child is the like the first step, but my path has been, you know, healing my ancestral lineage. So this goes back 1000s of years. Brandon Handley 21:20 Like, very, if you were gonna describe somebody to somebody like what it means to heal your ancestral lineage, what would you say? Eric Nies 21:33 Yes, so, you know, you're talking about your ancestors, you're talking about, you know, program, right, we're talking about behavioral programming, that gets passed down from one generation to the next, to the next to the next to the next, and it just keeps on going. So you know, the different behavioral programs that we inherit, from our ancestors, there's different types of behavior patterns. You know, a lot of us most, you know, we all we all deal with abuse on, you know, one level or another, whether it's physical abuse, emotional abuse, psychological abuse, or even spiritual abuse. And so this has been going on for 1000s and 1000s, of 1000s of years, here on this planet, you know, this, this planet is really a slave planet, to fear and judgment. But, you know, fear is something that we create, in our own minds, it's actually not real, it's an illusion. It's like the great illusion. And it's what keeps all of us collectively and consciously slaves to something that isn't even real. And this is, this is what the whole experience is about. So, ancestral lineage, healing, and the liberation of the soul. This is something that Jesus and Buddha spoke about. And it's their teachings that were left behind. You know, Buddha and Jesus both realize how to liberate themselves, from their own suffering. And what that looks like, is basically objective observation of the sensations or the suppressed emotion that are in your body. So if you can objectively look at yourself without judging yourself and without clinging to some blissful experience, and not judging, some gross experience, you can find the middle lane which Buddha, coining probably the word I think this word probably came from Buddha, which is equanimity, you know, to live your life economist and find the middle lane. You know, then you can find yourself in a very peaceful and harmonious place with yourself, and with nature, and humanity and the plant kingdom and the animal kingdom, and everything that exists here on planet Earth. And so the reason why you want to do that is because we live on a planet of duality. You have negative and you have positive energy here. Well, you don't want to go too far into the negative and you don't want to go too far into the positive because both can bring suffering. You want to find the middle lane, the quantumness Lane. And based off of my own personal experience, you know, this is just based off of what I've experienced in my own life. This isn't about reading a book or, you know, somebody else's teaching when working with plant medicine, and also working with possum, meditation, you know, that's where I've gone within myself personal was to look at the vibrations and the frequencies of the experiences that I've had in my life that my physical body hold on to energetically. But these, these, these, these frequencies in these energies, if they're not, if they're not in harmony and imbalance with air, fire, water and earth, then they cause a disruption in your personal field. And then that can come with anxiety, depression, you know, where the physical body feels uncomfortable. But what Buddha experienced was the liberation of that, the release of all of that energy, not just from this life, but from your past lives. Because you bring that energy with you, your soul, your soul carries information, and frequency, and energy and vibration with it from one life to the next to the next to the next to the next. And it's also within your DNA. So that's ancestral lineage, healing, it's healing and transforming the energy of your lineage that is passed down from generation, the generation generation. Brandon Handley 26:52 Awesome. So that means is, you know, just thinking like you're talking about, like, all these kind of like, energies come mishmash, together throughout time, I'm just thinking like, a messy ball a string, right? That you just got to spend time to undo right and, and loosen it up. So there's not a big, big old tangled mess. You know, thanks for thanks for sharing that. What is like something that you haven't been able to share out on a podcast or a platform that you've just been wanting to share out Eric Nies 27:22 about that at all. I'm completely transparent with my life and all my experiences. vulnerability is my best friend. You know, I'm just here to be transparent, and to be fearless in my expression of everything that's happened to me, in my life. You know, if you look on my website, and you read my story, then you can see obviously, that I'm not shy about sharing everything that I've experienced. Now for sharing, Brandon Handley 27:53 you've definitely shared some stuff understanding Eric Nies 27:55 is that transparency and vulnerability is going to liberation. Brandon Handley 28:02 Nice. The so what's next for you? Eric? I know you were talking about doing a healing temple sounds like you finished up with this. The plant journey what's what's next on dock for you? Eric Nies 28:18 Yeah, I'm working on a book right now. And a second book coming through and earthkeeper book connecting with the people to create our temple you know, guiding people and assisting people sharing information with other people to help them to understand how to liberate themselves from their own suffering, and just exploring and journey around the world to share this information. Brandon Handley 28:47 That's fantastic. That's awesome. Who should be reaching out to your click? I mean, are you do you know, what type of work are you doing right now and who should be reaching out to you? Eric Nies 29:00 what people should be reaching out Brandon Handley 29:02 like if they wanted if they want to work with you, are you still doing are you still doing like Addiction Recovery? Are you you know, saw your coaching So what kind of Eric Nies 29:14 I am Yeah, I'm actually I'm going to be hosting a retreat here and in peace, AK and the sacred valley of Peru at the end of July. And yeah, anybody that's interested in healing and transforming their lives, wanting to understand how to liberate themselves from their own suffering. Anybody the whole World Fair enough. Fair enough. The Brandon Handley 29:41 whole world's invited so wish we send everybody to connect with you where I am Eric nice, calm. Where else? Eric Nies 29:51 Yeah, I am Eric. Nice, calm and then also my I got an Instagram channel into Derek. Nice. I think it's there. Nice. Three, three. Three from not mistaken. But yeah, pretty much Graham and also Facebook. I got a Facebook channel where I've taken, I got about 1515 years of footage. And we just finished documenting two weeks here in Peru with an Iowa Oscar retreat. And all of that is going to be available on my Facebook page on my fan page. Yeah, it's Brandon Handley 30:35 awesome. Now that's pretty that's pretty, pretty intense. 15 years and then, you know, just this past couple weeks of Iosco well look man, I just want to say thanks for taking the time for showing up today. And you doing what you're doing, I think, opens it up for a lot of other people like your vulnerability, your journey, kind of what's possible if you do follow your bliss and being able to have a wonderful life if you kind of surrender to it the way that you have. Eric Nies 31:08 Yeah, brother. Well, thank you very much for having me, Brandon and many blessings for you and your family on your journey. And I look forward to seeing what magic you create in your life. Appreciate it. Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Wool fiber carding and preparation is our topic in this episode as our Summer Spin In continues. Current spinning and knitting projects along with a couple of rants are also on the program! Show notes with full transcript, photos, and links can be found in the podcast section of our shop website: TwoEwesFiberAdventures.com. Subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Subscribe on Android or Subscribe on Google Podcasts Marsha's Projects I frogged the foot of my Drops Fabel sock, turned the heel and I am knitting the gusset. Picked up a long dormant shawl called Simple Shawl by Jane Hunter that I started in March 2018. Using Michael CWD in the colorway San Francisco Fog. Cast on the pullover Atlas by Jared Flood for my brother. The yarn I'm using is Navia Tradition. My gauge is 20st/4” instead of 24st/4” so I am making the smallest size. I have knit about 7” of the body, excluding the ribbing. Because I cast on with a provisional cast on and the body is all stockinette it is very curly. It looks like a holiday wreath! In the last episode, I mentioned that the color work chart distinguishes “dominant” color and I was guessing what this meant. Thank goodness for YouTube and Jared Flood who has a great video explaining why we want to pick a dominant color and the technique for doing this. I'm still spinning on my green/brown merino.  Hidden Brain: This is the link to the website. Then search for the episode, “Why We Hold Onto Things” from May 31, 2021. I was unable to put a direct link to the  episode. Kelly's Projects I finished carding about 400 grams of Oxford batts and sampled them. Yes, actually sampled! I made two small skeins of about 20 g each. One is 2 ply and the other is 3-ply. Since the fleece was slightly sticky I used boiled water to put in the wash bowl and they both washed up nicely. I like the 2 ply best. It is softer and fluffier. I now have a full bobbin of singles all spun up. Here is the project page for this handspun.    I started a handspun sweater! I am using a new pattern called Dark Green Forest (Ravelry link) by Christina Körber-Reith. She also has the patterns at her website, Strickhauzeit. Her website also has both measuring/fitting and bust dart tutorials.  Summer Spin In Topics Don't forget your tetanus shot! From Nathalie (SuperKip) Two additions that might be helpful: Don't prep fleece when you're pregnant (toxoplasmosis is a danger) For ‘rescue'-fleeces, a flick-carder is also very helpful, this also gets rid of many waste types of yarn. Carding Fiber preparation tools: Hand cards, flick carder, mini combs, combs, drum carder, blending board Hand Carding with Beth Smith Spin Off Free Guide to Wool Carding and Combing Skirting How to Skirt a Fleece by the Spinning Loft How to Skirt a Fleece Video by Rayne Fiber Arts Mill processing Fiber Shed Mill Inventory Producer Directory Fiber Prep Ravelry Group: Fleece Processor List Mendocino Wool and Fiber Valley Oak Wool Mill Morro Fleece Works Full Transcript Marsha 0:03 Hi, this is Marsha Kelly 0:04 and this is Kelly. Marsha 0:05 We are the Two Ewes of Two Ewes Fiber Adventures. Thanks for stopping by. Kelly 0:10 You'll hear about knitting, spinning, dyeing, crocheting, and just about anything else we can think of as a way to play with string. Marsha 0:17 We blog and post show notes at toTwo Ewes Fiber Adventures dot com. Kelly 0:22 And we invite you to join our Two Ewes Fiber Adventures group on Ravelry. I'm 1hundredprojects, Marsha 0:29 and I am betterinmotion. Kelly 0:31 We are both on Instagram and Ravelry. And we look forward to meeting you there. Both 0:35 Enjoy the episode. Marsha 0:43 Good morning, Kelly. Kelly 0:44 Good morning, Marsha. Marsha 0:45 Well, how are you today? Kelly 0:47 I'm doing fine. I'm out in the trailer. I've been complaining about how cold it is here. It's in the 60s again, again every day. Well, not right now it's less than that here now. But I'm wearing an undershirt, a long sleeve shirt, a flannel shirt. And on top of the flannel shirt I have a shirt jacket that will probably come off as we go. But it's cold here. Marsha 1:19 Well, it's cool today. I don't know what the temperature is. But it's it's overcast. And the wind is blowing. It's very cool. And I but I have to say I'm not complaining. It feels very nice. After that hot hot weather we had Kelly 1:29 Yeah. Marsha 1:30 It was like 110. Like, I still, even now two weeks later, people are still like how'd you do with that heat, right. But everybody's asking, but so it's nice. And it's overcast and breezy and cool. But that's how it was yesterday morning. And then it turned out to be a beautiful day it was actually quite warm. So yeah, sort of typical for us is cool, and overcast and sort of misty in the morning. And then Kelly 1:55 Yeah, it's been wet almost every morning here for the last week. So it's been cold in the house. And of course I'm not going to-- I am not running the heater in July. That's ridiculous. Marsha 2:10 I don't know if they have this in other parts of the country. But there's a group in in Seattle, all the neighborhoods have a group in this way. It's called Buy Nothing. And it's basically where you can't sell anything. You just post everything out for free. So I've been posting up things like yesterday, well, the one that I thought was so interesting is--I think I got it as a Christmas gift years ago.It's a, it's for grilling, it's a fork, but also has a thermometer in it. Like 10 people wanted it. So I just had to pick somebody. And then other stuff nobody wants, you know, but it's kind of fun. I mean, you know, Kelly, remember you were talking about in front of your house, because you do live on a high traffic street. You just were putting stuff out in front and then and then it was fun to see how fast it went. And then you started going around looking for things to give away. It's kind of like, it's like now I'm very motivated. And I'll tell you why I'm motivated in a second. But anyway, someone's coming today to pick up--I have an old ice cream maker, you know that we had probably in the 60s, right? That we used to make ice cream. It's the hand crank kind that you put ice in and the rock salt and stuff. And so and she's all-- this woman is super excited about it, because she's gonna use it for their Campfire or Girl Scout troop to make ice cream, which is really fun that's going to get used, right? Kelly 3:33 Yeah. Marsha 3:33 it's it's kind of fun. It's a little addictive. And you know how I am. For years, I've had such a hard time getting rid of stuff. But people are so excited about it. You know, and this other woman, you know, she's excited because I just posted up-- I have a, you know, a large, really large stainless steel mixing bowl. And I posted that up and she's like, Oh, I'm a baker. And I said I'm a baker too, you know. So I thought maybe I'll meet my neighbors this way. Because it's just, you have to be in a certain block radius. So, um, so probably I think it's, I think it's nationwide. Kelly 4:11 I don't know. Marsha 4:13 So I will... let me just say why I'm doing this as is. You know I've...as you know, the listeners now I have my house that I've had in Ballard for many years. I'm getting that ready to rent. I moved into the house I was growing up in. I've had to combine two households. And I've done really well getting rid of stuff. But there was that last stuff that you know, that you hang on to. You think maybe I'll use it, right? Maybe I will make ice cream in the hand crank ice cream maker. And I've been thinking that for how many years? My mother had it in her basement and I thought it's never going to happen. So and if I do get a wild hair that I am, I will go buy one again but I'm probably never going to miss that thing. So I'm...and I had a...Yeah, there's all kinds of things I'm getting rid of and little things but they'll just make space and so I'm now motivated. In the basement because... and Kelly you know this and people if you're following my Instagram feed, you probably know what I'm doing. But I took everything in the basement.. The basement is divided into half. One half is...there's a rec room with a fireplace and a bedroom. And the other half we always called it the dirty part of the basement. But that's where the washer and dryer is and the workbench and stuff, the furnace, hot water heater. So I took everything out of that dirty part of the basement and put it into the rec room. Then I had the wiring redone the plumbing redone for a new hot water heater, new washer dryer, new sink. And then we painted the walls because it was just bare concrete walls. Well actually, they've been painted with calcimite which is like, almost like a chalk like substance, and it doesn't... you can't paint over it. The paint just peels off, so I had to wash down all the walls. Scrub the floor, degrease the floor. So I painted the walls, the trim on the windows, I painted the floor... two coats of concrete paint on the floors. So now I... last night I started moving things back. But Kelly, did you look at my Instagram post this morning? Kelly 6:20 No. Marsha 6:21 I think I posted it last night of the shelving unit, Ben shaking it. He said they're not safe. So I ordered last night, I just saw that you can go and order and pay for stuff at Home Depot and just go pick it up. So I ordered it and I get a text in about 15 minutes that it's ready. So Ben went over and picked up the shelving units and we built three shelving units. So today after we finish recording, I'm going to now start putting things that I'm keeping back on the shelf. And my plan is, if it doesn't fit on those three shelving units I'm not keeping it. Kelly 6:55 Oh, that's a good idea. it will keep you honest Marsha 6:57 And my other plan . Yes, and this is my other rule. Nothing sits on the floor. If it sits on it, I can't keep it if it sits on the floor. It has to go up on a shelf. Is that a good plan? Kelly 7:11 Yeah. Marsha 7:12 Do you think it's attainable? Kelly 7:14 I don't know. We'll see. How many people want your free stuff? Marsha 7:22 Yeah. Kelly 7:26 Oh, my goodness. Yeah. Marsha 7:28 So anyway, and I will put a... Well I think I got kind of motivated too because pulling everything out... when I saw all of the stuff in the rec room my thought was, I'm one item away from being a hoarder. One more item and it might be at the tipping point. And then as Ben said to me, you know, a lot of stuff is not my stuff. A lot of it is stuff that is other people's stuff that I inherited. So like, I've talked about this before, but you know, 10 sets of dishes that were all inherited from various relatives that I didn't buy, I don't want them, but I now have them. And I don't know what to do with them. And so and then along those lines, having that conversation with Ben sort of motivated me. It did, it sort of did motivate me and then also, he recommended the podcast Hidden Brain. I think the show airs on NPR, but it also is in the form of a podcast and he had an episode and I will try and find a link to it. I forgotten the name of it. But it's something basically about why we keep things and a lot of times it has no monetary value but it has sentimental value. And how do you and how... Which is true. Like I have these...I talk about all these dishes I have. That old treadle sewing machine... things I don't necessarily want. But the people who gave them to me really wanted me to have them. My aunt really wanted me to have that treadle sewing machine but I don't use it. So it's silly to keep it but I feel sort of duty bound to keep it, you know, and all the family history and photographs. I don't want them. And so I've decided I'm going to contact other members of the family and see if they want them. So they can store them and not me. Kelly 9:18 You should just do like my aunt's have done and... Marsha 9:24 just put it on their porch... Kelly 9:27 Grab a batch of pictures, stick them in a bag and just either put them in the mail and send them or, well, like my my aunt will send something home with Aunt Betty or my mom drops something off when she comes here. It's like you start divesting yourself by giving the stuff to to other people. So yeah, like zucchini. You can just drop it on their porch. [laughing] Marsha 9:54 And you speed away. [laughing] Maybe I should put my family photos on Buy Nothing. if you want instant family. Kelly 10:02 Funny! Marsha 10:02 No, I just think... and like the other thing too is I have been saddled with things. I adored my aunt. I loved her, my dad's sister, but she did all the family history. And I have three banker boxes full of all of her research, two trunks full of photographs. And I don't know how many plastic bins full of photographs. And I got, well, chosen or saddled with the family history stuff. And I, the truth is, I don't really care that much. And I know that's terrible to say, because everybody's doing all this family research, but somebody else in the family who is more motivated and cares more than I care should probably do it because I... My aunt, I think thought I cared a lot more than I really cared about all the family history. So anyway, way too much information about what's going on here. But I'm in purge mode. Kelly 11:05 All right. Marsha 11:07 So, Kelly, yes. Should we talk about, like, fibery things now? Kelly 11:11 I think so. Marsha 11:12 Okay. Kelly 11:13 You're not purging any of that. Right? Marsha 11:19 Well, I know I'm not yet right. Not now. But I do need to figure out a different way of storing. Kelly 11:23 Well, that's a perpetual question. What do you do? Yeah. How do you store those? Yeah, yeah. Marsha 11:28 So let's get to projects. Do you want to go first? Kelly 11:31 Sure. I'll go first, because mine is short. Oh, first of all, Marsha 11:35 is that good? Kelly 11:36 I don't know. Well, it's fine. It's, it's kind of normal. It's kind of the way it's been recently. But I finished carding about well... I'm gonna say finished because the Oxford fleece was in two bags. And I finished one bag of the Oxford a fleece and it's about it's about 400 grams. And so then I sampled. So I, I made a two ply, about 20 gram skein, I think, of two ply and a small skein also of three ply to see which I liked better. And I was, I was thinking I was gonna like the three ply better, but I liked... I actually liked the two ply better. It's fluffier, part of it might just be the amount of twist that I put in the three ply. Even though I like a nice round three ply. This particular yarn that I made, it feels sort of buttoned up. It's kind of like, you know, it's round. And, and, and, you know, bouncy, like a three ply is, but it feels kind of just too much twist. There's just too much, too much twist in it. And it just really wants to be a little looser. At least that's what I'm thinking. If I had done the three ply, with less twist. I mean, normally, you put a little more in, because you're going to be untwisting a little bit more when you ply the three ply. And so I think that might be what happened. I wasn't intentionally doing that, but maybe that's what happened. Anyway, it just feels a little too tight. And the other one feels nice and fluffy and loose. And so think I'm gonna do a two ply. And so I started a bobbin. Last-- yesterday, and I managed to spin an entire bobbin, most of a bobbin, of this Oxford fleece. So I'm still keeping my options open that I may opt to do a three ply. You know, I'm not gonna ply it right away. Think about it, and I'll do a second bobbin first before I decide, but I'm pretty sure I want to do a two ply with this. So it's nice, it's it's springy. It's softer than I expected it to be based on when I was carding it. Marsha 14:06 Mm hmm. Kelly 14:08 But it's like a medium You know, kind of a medium workhorse kind of fleece but softer than the Perendale. That Perendale that I talked about a couple of episodes ago, that blue and green one. Blue, green and yellow from the prepared fiber that I bought from Sheep Spot. The Oxford is a little softer than that. Actually is quite a bit-- it feels quite a bit softer than that now that I'm spinning it. Now I think I mentioned that I didn't do the best washing job when I first washed it, so it's a little sticky. So I just when I washed it, I just used boiling water in the bowl, along with some soap and washed the skeins and they came out really nice. So I wasn't too worried about it. I had done that before. So I wasn't too worried about the, the fact that it was a little sticky spinning. And it's perfect for spinning now. Because even though you know, even though the weather is cool here, you know, it has been in the high 60s. So if I sit in a little sunny spot and spin, it slips really nicely. You know, it's more lanoliny than sticky once it gets a little warmed up. So I mean, I'm not, this is not spinning in the grease by any means. It's... Marsha 15:32 Right. Kelly 15:33 It's, it's clean, but it's still got more lanolin in it then I really liked to have. So that's one thing that I'm working on. My spinning project. But I also started another project for our spin-in which is, you know, making something out of your handspun. So I started a handspun sweater. Marsha 15:59 Oh, Kelly 16:00 So I spun the yarn years ago, well, over several years. Maybe people who've been listening for a while might remember. It's the CVM fleece and I had it processed at Yolo fiber mill which is now Valley Oak Wool Mill, a different owner. But it's up in Woodland, California. And I had it when we first moved here to this house, so that would have been '05. I'd had the fleece for at least at least a year, maybe came from the fair in 2004. Sat around here for a while before I sent it away to be processed. And then once it came back, I started spinning it and I used that same fleece for the... There was like six pounds of it. And I used that same fleece that sort of taupey beige fleece for the Orca sweater, the Orcas Run sweater, my big, bulky sweater. But this is a fingering weight, three ply, and then I dyed it red over the kind of beige color. So that made it kind of a terracotta, rust, I don't know what you would call it exactly. But it's real pretty. The dye color was called dark red. And I found a pattern. So, again, I had talked many times about what pattern I was going to use, right? I had a couple of choices in my queue that I was pretty sure I was going to use one of them. And then finally I just decided you know what I'm going to go looking again. And so I found a pattern called Dark Green Forest. And it's by Christina Korber-Reith. Korber-Reith is her last name, k o, r, b e r, dash r, e, i, t, h, she's German. And I actually looked up how you how you pronounce it. Marsha 18:17 Mm hmm. Kelly 18:17 In German. And...but I can't say it that way. I did the best I could. But she has, she has some really interesting patterns. Nice, kind of the long sweaters that I like, cozy and casual. The one I'm using has a cable like a honeycomb cable down the sleeve. It's got a saddle shoulder, which... I don't know if I've ever done an actual saddle shoulder before. But I think this is a saddle shoulder because the cable comes down from the collar and then goes down, down the top of the shoulder and then down the arm. The collar is a square collar. I don't know that it would be called a shawl collar. But it's nice. It's...you start at the... you start at the collarr and go down and it's it's one of those collars that folds over and is just square. You know, it's just Marsha 19:22 like a sailor's collar. Is that what they call it? Kelly 19:24 Yes. Yeah, I think that is what you would call it. That is what it's like, exactly like that. And it has ribbing on it. So I've gotten... I've gotten down... I'm in the the arm hole increases. Marsha 19:43 Mm hmm. Kelly 19:45 But I got messed up somehow. And I need to... I'm trying to decide whether I want to go forward and see if I'm in the right place for the cable. You know that cable crossing, or do I want to rip it back again, because I already ripped it back once to to get back to where I thought I knew where I was. And now it's not looking right. So. So I have to decide what I want to do. Do I want to forge ahead? Assuming that I'm right?Or, or did I somehow make a mistake again, not paying attention and get an extra, you know, an extra row in there. So. So anyway, that's where I am with that. But I'm really liking the pattern. It's fun. It's well written. I've made good progress, but with a collar that big. I still haven't gotten that far down, you know? Yeah, I'm in the, in the yoke. A little bit below what she calls the yoke in her pattern, so. But I'm excited about it. I have a sweater on the needles again, something more than a dish cloth. Marsha 20:55 Mm hmm. Well, I was just looking at the pattern. I think it's a very nice pattern. And I love the color. That terracotta color, I think is really nice. Kelly 21:03 Thank you. Yeah, I'm really pleased with it. I was laughing because somebody, I was talking to somebody about making things. And I suddenly realized, I like everything I make. I mean, it's good, right? I'm making it so it should be made the way I like it. But, but it was kind of funny. This person that I was talking to was much more critical of her stuff than I am. I'm like, you know, Oh, I like that. You say Oh, I like the color. I'm like, yeah, isn't it great? Oh, I like how your sweater turned out! Yeah, yeah, isn't it great? [laughing] Marsha 21:48 That's interesting. I'm trying to think... do I like everything I make? I like most things. I've had some. I say I like everything I've made. I like the yarn and the color and stuff. Sometimes. They don't fit right. Kelly 22:05 Yeah, I have some. Yeah, I have some fit complaints about some of the things I've made. Mostly related to raglan sleeve shaping that has the raglan part starting at like two stitches. And yeah, my top of my shoulder is much broader than two stitches. So unless we're talking about, you know, a totally high neck collar, that's not enough. But even those, I mean, I yeah. I guess it has to do with when, right? Especially when I'm making it or when I first finish it. It's like, Oh, I love this! Once it's in my drawer or closet for a while I sometimes realize oh, I don't love this as much as I thought I did. You know? Marsha 22:56 Yeah, Kelly 22:56 I--you know, I noticed because I don't grab it out as much. Marsha 22:59 Yeah, yeah. Kelly 23:01 But yeah, no, I'm not very critical of my own work. There's, I've made-- I did make one hat that I thought okay, this is really ugly. Marsha 23:12 Was that the charity hat you made? That you were talking about in the last episode or two episodes? Kelly 23:17 Oh, no, I, well...I guess I could count that one. I think that one's kind of ugly. And oh, well, not ugly, just not the best thing I've ever made. So maybe two things. No, this is one I made a long, long time ago. And I was going to a meeting and I just had to grab stuff to make a hat. You know, I knew I was going to be sitting in a meeting for a long time. So I just grabbed yarn. And the colors didn't really go together. And then I decided to make stripes. Because I thought oh, if I if I make the stripes of this way, it'll look better the colors will actually go together. One was like a teal and the other one was like a rust color. And they just didn't, you know that can be... that could be a really pretty combination. But this particular teal and the particular rust just wasn't wasn't a good mix. So I know that that hat sat in my stash for a long time with me thinking, well, maybe it's not so bad if I look at it in a different light. Oh, I think it's all right. Or then I thought, oh, maybe I'll just overdye it and I thought you know, I just just put it in the bag of goodwill stuff. Marsha 24:26 Mm hmm. Kelly 24:28 So I finally did get rid of it. And one of my, you know, times of going through the closet and getting rid of stuff that hat went in. So yeah. Anyway, but those are my only two. Really my only two projects at this moment are the spinning project and the new sweater on the needles. So... Marsha 24:48 Well, very nice. You're busy. Kelly 24:50 Yeah, I had hoped to wash fleece. And I won't go into a lot of gory detail but my top load washing machine from 30 years finally died. So... Marsha 25:06 Yes, so did you get another top load? Kelly 25:08 Yeah, yeah, it's another just basic washing machine. So it's coming on Friday. Marsha 25:14 30 years. That's actually a really long time for... I mean today for appliances, Kelly 25:21 The one we just bought will not last 30 years, I'm sure. Marsha 25:24 Well, good. Kelly 25:25 So we'll hope it works. Nobody at the place knew anything about, you know, things like can you just... Marsha 25:32 can you wash a fleece in it? Right?They really couldn't answer that question. [laughing] Kelly 25:34 Will it just spin and drain? Oh, you know, can you open it up in the middle of the cycle? You know, all that stuff. They didn't know anything about it. So we'll see. I have my fingers crossed. I think I'll be able to use it. I'll be able to figure something out. It has a pause button. So you know it locks but it does have a pause button. So I should be able to... Yeah, I should be able to do something with it. I don't know. But it doesn't have... it has an automatic water level. That might be a problem. Marsha 26:08 Oh, yeah, cuz you want to Kelly 26:10 Yeah, cuz I wanted to fill and then put stuff in. So I need-- I might need to figure out how to make it fill with nothing in it. Stupid. I don't know why they can't just make a--Well, I won't go into a ramt. It just, it's just ridiculous. There's nothing wrong with a regular washer. And I you know, I was reading through all of the things and oh, you know, you need this washer because it's gonna make your clothes last longer. I'm sorry. People don't want their clothes to last longer. People want to go shopping and buy a new outfit next month. It doesn't make any sense. Marsha 26:51 Actually, that's a really good point. I never thought about that. Because that was the the selling point of those front load front load washing machines is they're more gentle on your clothing because there isn't the agitation. But to your point, we don't want our clothes to last because we buy clothes are so inexpensive that we just buy new clothes. Kelly 27:11 And honestly, my clothes have gone in a... Now I just sound like an old lady on a rant but my clothing has gone into a top load agitator washer for 60 years. I have never felt like my clothing wore out too fast from going in the washing machine. Never! Not once have I had something that I thought, oh my god, it just wore out so fast from going in the washing machine. Marsha 27:40 Okay, so since we're on rants, I'm going to add my little rant to this. It's not about washing machines and appliances, which that could be a whole--that's a whole nother podcast of ranting! Light bulbs. So Marsha 27:54 Oh no Marsha! [laughing] Marsha 27:57 I'm gonna say... [laughing] But here's the thing. I remember when they came out with the LED light bulbs. And the big selling point of those light bulbs is that they were going to last 25 or 30 years. So I had all these random light bulbs, and I discovered most of my lamps are three way. So I bought all new light bulbs. Because I as I say had all these different light bulbs. And so I bought all new three way light bulbs. Put them in probably two months ago, and two of them have burned out. Now, I think... And I clearly sound like a conspiracy theorist when I say this, but I don't think I am. I think it's the truth. I think they're designed to break because it's not-- it doesn't make any sense. It's not a smart business model to make light bulbs that last 30 years right? Because nobody's gonna go buy your light bulbs. They won't buy them again for 30 years. Kelly 28:50 right Marsha 28:50 So the business model is they use less energy, which is good. But they cost more. Like I don't know, they cost more to make? I have no idea. They cost more to buy which is good for the manufacturer. And you have to buy them just as frequently or more frequently than an incandescent bulb so it's a great business... it's a business model that makes sense. You don't want them to last. Planned obsolescence. You don't want things to last, you want things to slow down. You know, you want things to break and wah, wah, wah, wah, wah. Old lady, old lady Failor here! Kelly 29:30 And old lady Locke here having our rants Marsha 29:34 Okay, does that make me sound like a conspiracy? Kelly 29:38 No, why would you make something-- Why would you make something like a light bulb that would last for 25 years? Because yeah, once people... Marsha 29:47 It's a bad business. Kelly 29:48 It's not an appliance. I mean appliances don't even last 25 years! Marsha 29:53 Your furnace! The furnace doesn't last. I mean it's funny, the the oil furnace that was in the house. This house was put in 1929 and my parents took it out in the 70s so that still forty... but there was nothing wrong with it they just wanted... they were sold a bill of goods that electric was better which is ridiculous. Kelly 30:14 Okay, now, last one last rant! That big green furnace in the basement that I loved the look of? We had replaced and it had, I mean it had had trouble and it was inefficient and eventually we did end up getting a new one last year because our furnace had gone out a couple of times. Remember it was out for a while last November a year ago? So it had died. This is again a 1920s furnace they had to cut it up to get it out of the basement because it was so big. So we get a new one and it has a thermostat on it with a programmer, right? Prrogrammed thermostat and Roberts like okay, we have to do this because programming your thermostat is really really more efficient because you know you you have a timer, blah, blah... I said it's not more efficient because if you have it on a timer it's going to come on whether or not I'm cold. If I'm cold I turn it on and when I'm not cold anymore I turn it off and that's more efficient. He's like, no no it's much better... Guess what! Even though our furnace is much more efficient then the old one was, because we had it on the timer for the winter our heating bill was more! Marsha 31:37 Oh yeah? Kelly 31:38 I'm turning that off so now I'm only going to turn it on when I'm cold and turn it down and not turn it on in the morning you know before you get up. It just... Marsha 31:53 Yeah. well I say that's an interesting point because I know that they...The reason they say that you should have a program is that then you're not like, oh I'm cold turn it up and then it's putting all this energy into heating it up. You know it's just like it keeps it at this constant temperature but to keep it the constant temperature you're using energy, right. So I can see there are these things we accept as the truth that are not necessarily the truth. Kelly 32:18 Yes. Marsha 32:19 Well... furnaces. I go back to furnaces. My friend Susanna she has a house built in like 1900, I think. Here in Seattle, and she has the original furnace. Yeah, and it works. Yeah. So think how old that furnaces like over 120 years old. Kelly 32:35 Yeah, very cool. Marsha 32:36 And it works fine. So and I've spent evenings in her house and it's a lovely temperature. So there you go. Okay, and enough ranting Where are we I think because we got sent we went down this rabbit hole of ranting I believe I'm talking about my projects. Kelly 32:50 Oh my gosh, yes, you are. Quickly. [laughing] Sorry. Marsha 32:55 I have to get through these fast. Okay, so my socks. I frogged my socks because, remember the socks I'm making. I forgot to turn the heel. So I rip that out and I turn the heel and I'm now working on the gusset. Kelly 33:07 Oh, good. Marsha 33:08 I'm working intermittently on my Simple Shawl that I started years ago but I work on that periodically. I'm still spinning the green brown Merino. Nothing new to report on that. So I will.. don't need to talk about that. Since we talked too much on our rants, I won't go into all of that. But I did cast on the pullover Atlas by Jared Flood for... And I'm making this for my brother. And the last episode I had swatched. I talked all about swatches. And so I'm not getting gauge. I'm getting 20 stitches in four inches as opposed to 24 stitches in four inches. Okay, so based on his size and my gauge, I'm making the smallest size. And that's... and so he brought back the the other Jared flood sweater I made for him and which we talked about. Is it Cobblestone? Yeah, he brought that back and I measured that and it's the same, it's gonna be a little bit bigger, maybe about an inch bigger, which I think is good because he doesn't want... he wants it more slim. As I talked about in the last episode, he wants it a bit more slim fitting, I don't think it should be super slim fitting based on the weight of this wool. So I think it's gonna be the perfect size. Kelly 34:22 Well, that's good. Marsha 34:24 So that's good. I do have... But now I want to talk about the color work. I do have some concerns about the color work, but I have to let it go. Because... well I shouldn't even say this, it's perfect. I know I'm just kind of concerned. So the body of the sweater is this very bright grass, Kelly green kind of. And then the color work is in a navy blue and kind of a light like a sky blue robin's egg blue. My concern is, you know, when you...when you talk about, like you take a picture of your color work and put it in black and white, and you see how the colors work then and what stands out? My concern is that the, the...when you look at them together, the light blue and the green, sort of blend together a little bit. There's not as much distinction between the Navy and the green or the Navy in the light blue. I'm, I'm committed to using these colors. So I don't I mean, I'd have to buy a different color. And looking at the colors. I... there's like there's not, there's not a huge range of colors in this yarn. So my options are like red, brown, white, gray. And that's... I'm kind of wondering if maybe, like the white would be, I don't know. I think I'm just gonna start knitting it and see how... because just looking... because I didn't complete the whole color work pattern. And maybe it will all be fine. In the end. I don't know. Kelly 36:04 Well, and Mark chose those colors, right? Marsha 36:08 Yeah, well, Yes, he did. Kelly 36:13 Yeah, yeah. I mean, that's what he wanted. Marsha 36:17 Yes. But I think there's one thing picking the colors. And then picking colors for color work. Kelly 36:21 Yeah. Marsha 36:22 Right. Because I don't know that much about it. And he knows nothing. Well, he knows a lot about color. Don't get me wrong. He knows a lot about putting colors together because of his background in design. But a knitted fabric? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Anyway, I don't know. Kelly 36:38 He was looking at the pattern. I remember him looking at the pattern and right, and looking at the colors that he selected. So I don't know, anyway. Yeah. Marsha 36:49 So yeah. I'm not gonna worry about it. It's just something that's just is flickering through my brain. I wonder, huh? Wondering. And but again, when you complete the pattern, it might be fine. Just doing... I think I did 10 rows of the pattern. And the whole colorwork thing is well over that. So anyway, but the other thing I want to say is, do you remember in the last episode, we were talking about that in the pattern, it's a very well written pattern. But when you get to the color chart, it actually tells you on each row, which is your dominant color, and I had no idea what they were talking about. And so I said, I'm assuming the dominant color is going to be you knit..., you hold it in your dominant hand, in my case, that's my right hand. That's completely wrong. [laughing] So anybody who listened and knows anything about color work will know that that's wrong. This is what happens when you have no information, but you act like you're an authority. So I anyway, I... Kelly, you had pointed out that Jared Flood actually has a good video on explaining dominance. And so I put a link in the show notes about that, you actually are supposed to hold the the dominant color in your left hand. And I would I recommend the video, there's other videos out there too, but explains why you want to pick a color as a dominant color. And then also how you use it. Typically, people hold the dominant color in their left hand, he is not as fast that way. He actually holds both colors in his right hand. But he has this very interesting technique, which he demonstrates in the video of twisting your hand, so that you have the two different different yarns available. And he also talks about, there's another video he does about stranding and how you capture the floats in the back, which is very good. And this is all common knowledge for people who do a lot of color work. Not having done any color work, this is really informative. So I'll put, I put a link in the show notes on the video about dominant color. And then also in their patterns, they tell you which is the dominant color. But he said most color work patterns, they don't tell you. So also techniques for deciding which would be the dominant color. Kelly 39:04 Oh, that's good. Because Yeah, I have noticed that that's not something that's usually in the in the description. Yeah, at least in the description. Like, when you read the pattern, the pattern page, you know the description in the pattern page, you don't see it. Maybe in the written pattern, it will tell you but but yeah, that's good. Marsha 39:24 And then he and then even to the point to where the dominant color may change throughout the pattern. So you know, like in so like... Kelly 39:35 interesting. Marsha 39:36 Yeah, so yeah, so that was just very interesting, something I knew nothing about and I made that offhand remark and I realized like I was wrong! So I just want people to know and I, I did there were some comments in the show notes and people had posted. One listener posted a video, a link to a video in there. So all that was really helpful. So I just wanted to share that That's so... That is it for me with projects. Kelly 40:03 All right. Marsha 40:04 Oh, and I should say too about this sweater, and I talked about this before--that you're supposed to do a tubular cast on. And then knit two and a half inches of ribbing, and then start the body. And as I talked about in the past, and in the last episode, I'm doing a provisional cast on and just starting with the stockinette. And then I'm going to go back and do the ribbing. So I have done about seven inches of the stockinette. If I had included the ribbing, I'm supposed to knit it from the cast on with the ribbing, I'm supposed to about 10 and a half inches of the body where I then start doing shaping though, Kelly 40:41 So you're close to shaping. Marsha 40:43 Yeah. This, if I subtract the two and a half inches, I need to knit eight inches, and I'm about at seven inches now. So another inch and I'm going to start the shaping. When you do this technique, it's very curly. It's like I'm going around and around and around and it never seems like I'm getting anywhere. Yes, it looks like it looks like a holiday wreath because it's bright green. And it's just basically a big log, I mean and a big umm... Yeah, it's like, it's like a wreath, kind of. Around and around. It never seems to grow. So and I think I may have done this with his other sweater too, is that when I finished the whole sweater, I will probably wash and block it before I go back and do the ribbing. Because it is so curly. I think it's gonna be very difficult to measure how it should be. Kelly 41:34 Yeah. Marsha 41:37 So, but I'll report in on this. So as I say that's it for... that's it for projects for me. Kelly 41:44 Good. Sounds like you're making good progress. Marsha 41:49 on some projects, yeah, not so much on others. Kelly 41:53 Well, the summer spin is moving along. And it's also Tour de Fleece. I forget what day we're on now, I was doing pretty well at the beginning of it. Accounting for what I was doing each day that had to do with spinning. I had a couple of days that I didn't card or spin or anything so I got kind of off. But anyway Tour de Fleece is going on. The summer spin in is going on. And in this episode, we're going to talk a little bit about fiber preparation. Marsha 42:27 So and Kelly, you mentioned this last time, but we'll mention again. Don't forget your tetanus shot. Kelly 42:32 Oh, yeah. And then we had some feedback, too. Marsha 42:34 Yeah. So Natalie, Superkip. She added don't prep fleece when you're pregnant. And because toxoplasmosis is a danger and I'm not sure what that is. I honestly did not Google it. All I know is, it's a danger. So okay. And I did watch a video to where she said she always wears gloves. Just latex gloves on. So that's probably smart to do too. And then Kelly 43:00 I have to say I wouldn't do that. Yeah. I like the feel of it. I know. But if you're squeamish about about touching, yeah, I guess. Marsha 43:13 Yeah. Yeah. So anyway, so I wanted to mention that. Kelly 43:19 And then she also mentioned about when we talked a little bit about the rescue fleeces that might have more stuff in that, you know, bargain fleeces that might have stuff in them, more so than something that you'd buy at a fiber festival. And she mentioned a flick carder being really helpful. And I had forgotten to mention that but yeah, that is a good example. Its a good use for flick carder, if you can somewhat keep the locks of your fleece intact. When you wash it, if it's the type of fleece where that happens. Then you can kind of just brush them out with a flick carder, brush out the ends and you can get out a lot of the waste that way. Marsha 44:02 The first thing I was just going to mention is if you if you get a raw fleece and you know we've talked about washing it, but what we did not talk about was skirting. And so I was just gonna mention, we won't go into great detail but the concept of skirting as you lay the fleece out with the cut side down, and the so called dirty part up and then you just go around and you pull out areas that are matted, or areas where the fibers look like they're broken. If there are manure tags on it, or bad stuff that you just don't want in there. Probably as we talked about in the last episode if you've bought a fleece at you know like from a show it probably will be pretty well skirted, but it's a good idea just to go through it again. The other comment too on the video Well, I'll just say I put a link in to a video by Rain Fiber Arts. That was very good. And she is talking about how to skirt a fleece. And she also talks too, if you see if there's any signs of eggs, or moths or something, and just don't even let that into your house. Kelly, you can add something to this too, about, what are your thoughts about things to look for, when you're skirting that you'd want to pull out? Kelly 45:30 Usually the parts that you don't want are around the edges, you know, so like the, if the fleece has been rolled up, and you can unroll it and see kind of, you know, depending on how it's been rolled, and how well you're able to unroll it, you might not exactly be able to see the shape of the sheep. But you know, like the manure tags would be in the back edge, the britch wool, which is the wool on the backs and kind of toward the backs of their legs, is more coarse, usually and that's towards the edge of the fleece. If they have, you know, the fleece around their legs might have been, well, like the fleece that I was carding the Oxford, there were some sections of that fleece, some pieces of that fleece that had dark hairs in it from the leg. Dark leg hairs in it, which really, if I had been doing a better job, I would have, I would have skirted a little bit better and taken taken that out. And that would have been around the edge, as well. Yeah, sometimes, sometimes around their neck, you'll find a lot of hay from, you know, from eating. And so you can take some of that out, if you want to, you know, be real harsh with your skirting and get out the most of the veg manner. So a lot of it is around the edges. The other thing that I wish I had done more of with this fleece that I have, is... and I did a little bit of it when I was picking and carding. But a lot of times you can shake the fleece, if you can shake the fleece. Especially if you have... I would love to have a table that was like mesh. Because the second cuts, any second cuts, well, you know, a lot of that will fall away, a lot of the veg matter will fall away, some of the things that you don't want will fall away and, and you can see it a little bit better if you shake it, you can see, you know, where are those areas where you have second cuts and those little short bits. So I need to do a better job of that. My habit is, you know, to look at the fleece when I first get it home, and then roll it back up and put it away and then I get on a tear about washing and I just grab some of it, you know. What I really should do is lay it back out, sort it. Look for places where the fleece is really nice and put all that together. And wash just that section and be really intentional about what parts of it you wash, as opposed to just, you know, grab a piece of it that's going to fit in the washer and wash it. So you can be intentional about your fleece, if especially if you get a nice one, right? Where you want to keep the nicest bits together. If it's a fleece like a lot of the... And maybe this is why I do it. A lot of the bargain fleeces that I've gotten, you know, they're just jumbled in a bag. And there's no knowing what what part of the fleece is what. So that's how I got my start and maybe that's why I have some bad habits when it comes to grabbing out bits to wash. Marsha 48:56 Yeah. The first fleece I bought was actually a Shetland fleece. And I just took it out of the bag and I put it i... like tore it in half or smaller batches and just washed the whole thing. Yeah. And that was a mistake because what... and now this is specific to Shetland, but I took a class by Judith McKenzie about taking a Shetland fleece and because the fiber so different depending on where it is on the sheep, you really don't want to take the... You can do anything you want to do, but it's better to separate out the different fiber, different textures and fibers because-- and I didn't know that about a Shetland. So I just, you know... but I think in any fleece there are going to be different textures depending on where it is on the sheep. So I did that. I just washed all of it and carded it and started spinning it. Is it bad? No, not necessarily but it could have been better. Kelly 50:00 Yeah, it's just different. You know, if you if you want a really super... if you want to get like, every type of yarn you can get from a fleece, then you have to be more intentional about it, right? You'll find the finest part and you'll make a nice yarn that's fine and soft. With the more coarse part, you'll make something that's a more workhorse yarn. But, but if you want to just make a sweater, you just mix it all together and make a sweater. I mean, there's nothing wrong with doing that. Yeah, right. Marsha 50:36 Well, and I was... the other thing I was gonna say about skirting is sort of, for me, you know how I am. It's like, I want to use every bit of it. Because this precious thing I bought, I want to use every bit of it. Yeah. And it's okay to be aggressive, you know? Yeah. Well, you don't need to save all of it. It's okay. Kelly 50:53 I think I've told this story before about the, I think it was like 40 pounds of fleece that I got from... I was at a spinning day and somebody said, Oh, you know, my brother in law has fleece in his barn. Would you be interested? I'm like, of course! So I went and got this 40 pounds of fleece. And I'm pretty sure that's what it came out to be. And anyway, I opened it all up on my lawn and made piles. And I found myself at the end, even though I had so much of it, I found myself going back to the trash pile and taking taking bits that I had skirted out and putting them back. So yeah, you know, it's hard. It's greed. Fleece Greed is a real thing. Right? So, but but some people are better at that than than others. And then there are some people who keep their carding waste. You know, when I'm carding, and I clean off the carder, the waste that's on the small drum of the carder, I toss it. But there are people who save that and use it for something else, you know, and you can do that. But I, that's not something I do. I think about it. [laughing] And then I tell myself how much fleece I have in the garage. And I toss it in the bin. Marsha 52:23 So about carding, let's talk a little bit about carding, then, oh, as I say, it's a huge subject. So and we can't go into the minutiae of it. But let's just talk sort of, in general about carding. The different tools and whatnot. Kelly 52:33 Well, I put a couple of links in the show notes about it, I have a drum carder, and I, one of the things that I can say for sure, whether using hand cards or a drum carder, is that you really want to not overload, you know. Less is more. You really can go faster if you don't try to put too much in. And I have also learned that it's faster for me, even though it doesn't seem like it, if I do some picking first, which is like separating all the fibers. And so I'll just, you know, stand at the table and pick a whole bunch of, you know, like a whole box of fiber, one of those, you know, reams of paper boxes. I'll take a bunch of fiber, and I'll do the picking until I've got a good amount in one of those boxes, and then I'll start carding. And that really helps because it's already-- the fibers already separated and doesn't get clumped and stuck in the drum carder, and then I usually do two passes. With this fleece that I have, I did the first pass and got a bunch of batts. And then I pulled off strips from each one of those bats and blended them you know, blended them together and did a second pass. I've done with some fleeces depending on how, how much what kind of fleece it is and how it looks, I might do a third, a third pass. Or if I'm blending two colors together. I'll do, you know, I'll do each color that I'm blending, each part that I'm blending separately. And then I'll pull strips off and weigh them and run them through the carder together and then probably have to do a third pass to get them better blended. The first pass usually isn't very well blended and then the second one is much better. So I do a first one to just kind of get everything organized separately. And then a second one to blend and then a third one to finish the blending if I want the blending to be more even. So you can do the same thing with the hand cards, the blending. I've done that before. It's not so... I don't do so much weighing when I use the hand cards, I just kind of eyeball how much I'm putting on. I might weigh it ahead of time to say like, I want 70% of this and 30% of that. And so I have my two piles. But then when I put it onto the cards, I'm not weighing each time I use the hand cards, I'm not weighing these. So yeah, that Carding is... I enjoy it, it seems like it will be a slow process. But actually, that 400 grams that I carded, you know, went through the carder, I picked it, and then it went through the carder twice. And it was a, you know, a couple of hours, maybe two or three times during the week. So I mean, that's not that much time. It didn't seem like it was that much time. Marsha 55:53 No, it's not bad. You just listen to podcasts or watch TV or something. Yeah, Kelly 55:58 yeah. Or listen to a zoom meeting. [laughing] Kelly 56:09 So that's um, that's how I card. Now, the flick carder, we talked a little bit about that already. That kind of requires that you have the lock structure still intact in your fleece. And then I just put it on my lap on top of like a magazine on top of my lap and just brush out the end of the of the, the tip end of the fleece and then turn it around and brush out the the back end of that lock and then set it aside and start another one. And that works really well. I don't have mini combs. And I kind of would like to have mini combs. I have the big combs that you clamp onto a table and I took a class on using those, which was really good. But I haven't really used my combs much since then. They're I mean, they're really a nice piece of equipment. But for some reason I'm not... I'm just not in the habit of getting them out and using them. And I think mini combs might be something that I might like to have. Because, just because they're something you can just sit and do. Marsha 57:17 Right, right. Kelly 57:19 So I'd be interested to hear what people think about mini combs. And then the other thing I have not used is a blending board. And I know most of the time people are using a blending board with fiber that's already processed to to you know, mix colors together and make interesting rolags or punis. So, but that's not something that I've ever done. So I'd be interested to know how many of our listeners have used either a blending board or mini combs and whether they think either one of those things is kind of an essential, an essential tool. Marsha 58:04 How big are mini combs? Kelly 58:04 About, probably about, I would say the ones I've seen, maybe about two and a half to three inches across. They're smaller than hand cards. Marsha 58:16 Okay. Kelly 58:17 But they they have the same kind of, you know, like, the same kind of tines as like the bigger combs. I think two rows of tines. And you use them the same way where you put them perpendicular to one another. Like you put the fiber on the one comb and then you... Marsha 58:35 Oh here I'm looking online at them right now as we speak. Kelly 58:39 So I've been thinking about maybe getting a set of mini combs, because that is one type of preparation that I haven't ever done. And I know there are a lot of people who really like it and you can get a lot of the garbage out of your fleece that way. Moreso than with carding. More waste, you know, there's more waste, but you get more of the best part of the fiber. Marsha 59:12 Right. Yeah. Okay. Kelly 59:15 So, anyway, so that's my, my experience of of carding and combing fiber preparation. So and I have a couple--Like I said, I have a couple of links in the show notes for that. Marsha 59:28 Okay, good. The other thing that we I just I thought that we decided we should talk just touch on, too, is also mill processing. You don't necessarily have to process this yourself. And so we have some links in the show notes. Fibershed did a mill inventory of mills across the... Well Fiber shed is a California based group. So they show one mill in California, they show mills across the country, but they don't have them listed by name, so. But the link is in there, it's interesting to look at. There's also a link to the producer directory. And that Kelly too, we were talking about that before we recorded. That has not just mills, but people who are producing fiber. And also on Ravelry there's a Fiber Prep Ravelry group. And they don't have mills listed in like a central location to go to see all the mills that are listed. But in the discussion thread, people are talking about the different mills. Yeah, I think my sense is, what you have to do is you just have to Google mills for processing, wool, alpaca, whatever and search for the mills. I know some of the mills popped up. But I know the three that I know, fairly locally to me. They're processing their fiber for their own yarn. They're not processing fiber anymore for people who just want to have a fleece processed. So yeah, there are mills out there. I think though, you have to just Google and start searching. As we said, there, it's difficult to find one location that just has a list of all of the mills doing small batches of in the United States, right? Kelly 1:01:21 Yeah, Valley Oak Wool Mill is the one that that I've used in California. And then there's also Mendocino Wool and Fiber Company. Again, this is just California. I think the eastern part of the United States has a couple of really well used mills and there are a lot. There are more of them in that area. But yeah, Mendocino Wool and Fiber is the other one. I haven't used them but their website, I can put their link in the show notes as well. mendowool.com is their website Marsha 1:02:01 When we... what we talked about in the last episode is you know if they can't... most not all, but mills can either just wash it and and prep it for spinning or you can just have it processed into roving or you can have it processed into yarn if you want to do that. But that's another resource. Kelly 1:02:23 And it is true there are a lot more of them that process your wooll into fiber preparations. Morro Fleeceworks is another one in California that I was forgetting. A lot more of them process into roving than process all the way to yarn. There's a real lack of mills, small mills, that process your wool all the way to yarn, and a lot more of them just the process or fiber. Marsha 1:02:58 Yeah. So I just wanted to mention that. All right. Um, so let's just briefly talk about carding. I, you know, I have a drum Carter, I have the carding the combs that I use. I don't have a blending board, which would be kind of nice because I do remember I bought... I think it was up on Whidbey Island at the Whidbey Island spinners... little packets of mohair locks that were dyed. And those are great to blend in. So I was thinking I should probably get it. It'd be nice to get a blending board but all in good time. Right. Kelly 1:03:45 Mm hmm. Well, you can do that blending with your with your drum carder too. Marsha 1:03:51 Yeah, that's how I've done it in the past, because I did some at your house with your drum carder. So I should, I should try it here. Anyway, so anything else we need to add to this topic? Kelly 1:04:06 Um, I think if you are going to go look at the fleece processor list in the Ravelry group that we've posted, if you are going to go look at that list, I would suggest starting at the most recent posts. Because the thread has been going for like six years or something. So you know, something you get out on page one is maybe not even...Maybe not even there anymore. Marsha 1:04:34 Yeah, yeah. Kelly 1:04:36 Yeah. So Well, I'd be interested in hearing what other people do and also you know, if you have a mill that you've used to process fleece that we haven't mentioned. Maybe we could start a list. Marsha 1:04:53 Yeah, there you go. Maybe. Yeah, we should! I know like some people have used Shepherds Wool that does Crazy that we like so much. People have had yarn prop don't Kelly 1:05:07 Stone Hedge Marsha 1:05:08 Stone Hedge. That's the one! That's the name of it I want to say because they make shepherds wool their worsted weight. Yeah. So I know that they've had them. So maybe we should start a list Kelly. if nobody's done it, maybe we need to. Kelly 1:05:24 Yes. Well, we can start by-- we can start by asking our listeners to provide us feedback. With mills that they've used or that they know of in their area. We've got three California ones listed on our show notes for today. But yeah, we need to put in some other states. Yeah. All right. Project. Project. Yes. Just what I need. [laughing] Marsha 1:05:53 So anyway, but the summer spin-in goes through Labor Day, which is September 6. Kelly 1:06:00 So and we have two finished object threads. One is for finished spinning. And the other one is for finished projects. So if you're making something out of hand spun, you can join us. You don't have to be spinning this summer to join in. Marsha 1:06:15 Yeah. Kelly breaking in while editing 1:06:18 Oh, coming in from the future, to say that we forgot to tell you that we will have prizes from Three Green Sisters again this year! We'll talk more about that next episode. Marsha 1:06:31 Okay, Kelly. So and then do we have any more housekeeping? Kelly 1:06:34 I don't think so. Marsha 1:06:36 All right. Well, then, I guess we'll say goodbye. Kelly 1:06:38 All right, Marsha. Marsha 1:06:40 We'll talk we'll talk to weeks. Kelly 1:06:41 Okay. Bye bye. Marsha 1:06:42 Alrighty. Bye bye. Kelly 1:06:43 Thank you so much for listening. To subscribe to the podcast visit to Two Ewes Fiber Adventures dot com Marsha 1:06:50 Join us on our adventures on Ravelry and Instagram. I am betterinmotion and Kelly is 1hundredprojects. Kelly 1:06:58 Until next time, we're the Two Ewes doing our part for world fleece! Transcribed by https://otter.ai  

Mentioned in this Episode:Jonah's blog: https://jonahaangeles.medium.com/Jonah's podcast: https://open.spotify.com/show/2dU930a...Jonah's Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/channelsurfcinema/ To learn more about the Get Psyched Mission:You can Get Psyched on...InstagramTwitterFacebookYoutubeCheck out my friend and fellow creator PME On Spotify(Producer PME has given me permission to use his beat '300k' as the Get Psyched intro/outro beat)EPISODE TRANSCRIPT:Provided by Otter.aiDJ Psyched  0:07  I'm DJ Psyched, and you're listening to the Get Psyched podcast. Let's Get Psyched together.I'm DJ Psyched, you're listening to the Get Psyched podcast. And today we're getting psyched with Jonah, we're gonna be talking a bit about writing. So just to start things off, can you tell us a little bit about yourself and what you do, and specifically, I guess what you do with writing,Jonah Angeles  0:32  okay, my name is Jonah. I do a lot of things. Writing being one of them, one of my favorite things to do, I publish on medium. So I do poetry and nonfiction pieces. And yeah, I really enjoy writing. It's one of my passions, it sounds really cliche to say that but you know, as a writer, it's important to, to be passionate, I think. And to imbue your work with that passion, because that's where the good stuff is. And I write about anything and everything. on medium I've been writing about, you know, experiences at university, kind of like, pseudo memoir, stuff, I shouldn't say pseudo, like, kinda like memoir stuff, non creative nonfiction pieces, about my time at university to, you know, photography, which is another one of my hobbies. Also, I read about aliens. I've written two articles about aliens. And I'm not some kind of conspiracy theorist. I guess some people might label me that, but I don't want to get lumped into a niche. So I very intentionally write about various subjects. Which I mean, could also be a disadvantage for, for me as a writer on medium because I think it is important to find a niche, or find some, just some comfort zone or some, some field or domain that your readers will expect. It gives your readers something to expect from you, I guess. But with me and, you know, knowing me and my various interests and my ADHD, it's impossible to fixate on one thing, or to stay on one topic for a long period of time. As you probably know. Quite a, quite a divergent thinker. And I jump from one topic to another. And that definitely shows with my writing. But I guess what ties it all together is that I try to write from, from my voice. And that's something I've developed for years is a unique style and a unique voice. Otherwise, what separates my writing from everybody else's writing, right? It's, it's my style and my voice that I've developed over, over years.DJ Psyched  3:15  Nice. And you wanted to say a little bit more about the multi disciplinary aspect, cuz I think that's pretty big for how your writing ends up being. Because I think when you are multi disciplinary, and you do a lot of different things, it kind of shows through in your writing.Jonah Angeles  3:31  Yeah, um on medium, which is, you know, the good thing about publications, or platforms like medium, I don't want to call medium a publication because it's more so a platform for publications and for published writing, and self publishing. I can add images, and header images, and, you know, body images or like images into the body of the text of an article. And oftentimes, they're my own photos and my own graphics that I've designed for the article. So it makes it more my own thing, I guess. And it makes it more of a product of, of, of my multiple disciplines that I practice. So as I mentioned, I'm into photography as well. I'm into Visual Art and graphic design. And I'm also a podcaster I have my own podcast Overthinker's Anonymous. And I shout out my articles on on my podcast. So I guess my, my published works are linked in a way and it's nice to have multiple platforms too, like Instagram, and a medium account, and a Twitter and the Facebook where you can link to all these multiple works. I don't know it's it's nice to have that um, The thing that ties them together, that aspect of it that ties them together, makes them exist in relation to each other. So that it's it's like I'm creating, like a network of works. Or a world maybe, if that doesn't sound too grandiose?DJ Psyched  5:20  No, yeah, no, I completely understand because I think we're very similar in all those aspects like, I definitely am a writer myself, but I don't only write like, I just couldn't either. I don't think I could stop myself in doing just one thing, like I considered briefly to cut myself from the podcasting world so that I could focus on my writing. And I just couldn't do it. Like, I just couldn't give it up. I enjoy doing it too much. And I think that, with that, I end up like, if I pick something up, because I'm very prone to picking up a new kind of art, or whatever, instead of replacing the old stuff, I've learned to just kind of make like everything connected in its own ways. And I think in that way, we're kind of similar, because my podcast and my website and everything, it's all under a similar name. And it's kind of become like a theme, in a sense, although everything is very different. I try to tie it together. So would you say that everything that you do your podcast, the writing, anything else you create, is it all? Like you said, it's like a world so it's all it's all connected, right? Is what you're saying? Like, it's not like, these are separate things that you're trying to do? You're trying to make it one big thing that do you see as a reflection of yourself, do you see as a mission or something, because I kind of see mine as a very small reflection of myself, because obviously, it's not 100%. me, but I like to think that it's also a mission. So like, with your world, what are you trying to create, exactly, do you know?Jonah Angeles  6:44  I don't know exactly. Because I feel like they're all reflections of me. But they're not. As you said, there, there may be partial reflection reflections, they're not like the whole me. I don't want to define myself by what I do. By my work. I've said that many times in the past, that I'm not trying to establish my identity through my through my work. I guess I'm just trying to, like we said on on my podcast on episode 10 of Overthinker's Anonymous, we kind of ended off on the note that the meaning of life is to create something that lasts. So I think that's kind of what I'm trying to do. I, I guess the real answer is, though, that I don't think about it too much. I just do things and I, I don't think about the big picture as much as I think about, you know, what I, every single thing that I do, I put 100% of myself into it. But I don't think about my entire legacy, or my entire body of work as being one thing or one world. But I guess it's my, my content, like, my footprint, or my my I how would you? my garden, maybe my online, online garden of work. Because it sounds better than body of work. It sounds more glamorous, I think having a garden of work. And with a garden, you can have multiple different types of flowers blossoming. And the conditions have to be right, right? The temperature has to be right. You tend to it. And I don't know, I think it's important to revisit it and not just, you know, frivolously throw things out into the void and see what sticks. You know what I mean? I think it's important to preserve what you what you've made, and enjoy what you made and share what you've made. Yeah, because I feel like we live in we live in a world where it's all about content creation, content creation, content creation. And it seems the trend seems to be that you, you make stuff and you just throw it out there and you just kind of forget about it. And you're on to the next thing. That's something I don't necessarily buy when is just like, I believe that these things should last. And if you're not making things that last, you're making things that are just, you know, going to get your attention for maybe five minutes. And then it's on to the next thing and you forget about that Tik Tok or, you forget about that tweet. You know, I don't know I maybe I'm maybe I'm putting too much value into every single piece that I make. But I believe that, you know, we're creating things that are going to be there are going to outlast us. So that's what I have in mind is, you know, the future like posterity. How am I going to be perceived by future generations, by my children, and my children's children, if I have children, or like, by, by by The future. How is the future gonna perceive me? How are, how are the aliens gonna, gonna perceive me? You know, like, what are they going to infer about the life I lived and the kind of person that I was, you know, where my mind wandered? You know, the things I thought about? what I studied? You know, what I dealt with in life? Whatever I've been through?DJ Psyched  10:30  Yeah, that definitely makes sense. And I guess what I'm wondering is then, as a writer, like, do you have any certain goals for yourself? Like, maybe not like in the sense of like, Oh, well, I don't know, in the sense that you like you said, You like to make things that last and are meaningful, do you have any very specific goals? Because I know that you've talked about different writing projects that you worked on? I think you talked about it when we did the podcast together. So is there anything like you would really love to do like, I mean, personally, I read somewhere in a book once, a book I really love, that they said, like writing a book is one of the best things that you could do for yourself and preserving your legacy. Is that something that you also think as a writer, like long bodies of works?Jonah Angeles  11:13  Oh, yeah. 100%. I'm writing a book, fiction science fiction novel. And it's kind of on one level, it's, it's a dystopian, utopian/dystopian, or, as Margaret Atwood would call it Ustpopian novel. But on another level, it's it's kind of a allegorical autobiography, especially Book Three, part three. I don't want to spoil too much, but like, Part Three mirrors a lot of my life. And it gets very real, I guess it gets very personal. Even though the character isn't necessarily me, it's, it's kind of like an avatar for me. And I do have an avatar in the novel, like, one of my main characters, William, William Blue, is essentially, who I would be in that world had I existed in that world that I'm writing in, that I'm writing about in the year 2033. Yeah, he's, he's essentially just... Oh can you hear me?DJ Psyched  12:21  Yeah.Jonah Angeles  12:23  He's essentially just a mirror of me, I guess, but not not. Again, like we said earlier, a partial mirror, not, not a whole reflection of who I am. And he's definitely not one to one, a one to one translation of, of my personality. He's definitely his own being his own character. And he's got his own personality. But I feel like if you were to study this novel, that I'm writing, if you were to analyze it, you'd probably be able to pick out a lot of my life, and, you know, my experiences within the novel. So I think that's just been my goal for a long time is writing is writing this novel? I've been writing it since I was 19. So it's about eight years in the making. And yeah, it's it's kind of like, a mirror of my life, but not really. So an allegorical autobiography, as I said, and yeah, it's a lot about a lot of it is about finding yourself too and figuring it out figuring out this whole life thing in in a larger than life world with larger than life characters. But um, yeah, that's basically the gist of it.DJ Psyched  13:51  Yeah, well, that's awesome. I think I've done very similarly with my writings actually had this weird thing for a while, where every short story I wrote the main character's name started with an L, just because mine does like almost all of my main characters from anything that I wrote, like in college, their name started with an L. And I felt like I always put a part of myself into the characters, I feel like that kind of made them more real to me, and made me resonate with the story more. So I guess what I want to ask you is what would you say you write for? Because personally, when I write, I think my writing becomes one, reflection for myself. Like, I feel like there's so many times that I've started writing and just had grand epiphany is why I stand by writing and I love to write, like, whether I post the writing or not, sometimes I'll just journal to write for myself. So I think like writing for me is like a sense of reflection, but it's also a form of expression and trying to explain myself to others. So what inspired you to start writing and what do you see writing as for you like, what, what is writing to you?Jonah Angeles  14:56  Oh, yeah, I was really well put. I'm going to steal some of your words and say reflection and expression. Because like, yeah, reflection, like through journaling, and through like my own just free writing or like sometimes I do poetry, free writing poetry. It's a way to externalize your thoughts, right? It's a way to look into your, your minds activity, or like, look into the information that's passing through your mind. And processing it in a way where you can reflect on it and even analyze it in a way that's different from just thinking about your thoughts. There's something about writing something down and then actually viewing it from an outsider's perspective or like, even from the audience, an audience perspective. Because really, when you're journaling, you're your own audience, and you're writing for yourself. And, yeah, it's just a way for me to reflect and I guess, better understand myself better better understand the workings of my own mind. It's also on another side it's expression. So it's a way for me to, I guess, express myself as simple as that. No reason to overcomplicate it further than self expression. And creating something beautiful, creating something meaningful, insightful, entertaining. I love to entertain and, I guess, provoke thoughts and provoke feelings or evoke feelings and people evoke feelings of beauty. For me, writing is also about the the artistic, the artistic arrangement of words. I really love, you know, literary authors like Oscar Wilde. Nabokov, like and then poets like William Blake, Edgar Allan Poe, and like, those are just a handful of many, many authors that inspire me to create beautiful language. And there's so many ways language can be beautiful. You can write about you know, love, you can write about nature, you can write about sci fi, or even dark, Gothic, grotesque things, and still make it poetic and beautiful. For me, personally, I like to find the middle ground between poetry and prose. And one of the articles that I posted on medium called Welcome to your life now in Ultra HD, which I had a feeling that you were gonna bring this up anyway. But like that article experiments with like poetic prose with like, short, punchy paragraphs that are, um, you know, like, brevity is the soul of wit, like Oscar Wilde says, so like their brief punchy thoughts that express a lot with very little. And the whole article is a 14 minute read, but it's just full of those punchy thoughts. You know what I mean? And I feel like it makes it more easy to consume too, especially in today's world where the short form is more favored, I guess, you know?DJ Psyched  18:52  Yeah. Jonah Angeles  18:54  And that's why I like to write more like just punchy, punchy sentences, rather than long form paragraphs. But I don't want to pigeonhole myself into that kind of writing either. I do write long paragraphs too. It's just depends on the article and wherever the article needs. And whatever the individual each individual paragraph needs, right? Like to bring it back to the topic though. Writing is just about reflection and artistic expression to me, personal reflection, introspection. And yeah, and then expression, reflection and expression. That's my answer.DJ Psyched  19:41  Yeah, and, I mean, I think that's like what a lot of like art is, is like expression and reflection. So is writing one of like you said, it's like one of your big things, what made  writing so specifically, a thing to focus on. I know you do a lot of things, but you do, you were very passionate. You were very passionate about talking about writing. So I'm wondering, what is it specifically about writing that entices you. And what maybe inspired you to choose writing is something to really focus on?Jonah Angeles  20:13  Um, that's a good question. I've always been a big reader, I've always loved reading. It's one of my first loves my mom used to read to me, and instilled this love of prose and literature, even poetry. But it was more so like books, like storybooks. And works like Harry Potter. Or, you know, Lemony Snickett's a series of unfortunate events.DJ Psyched  20:42  Yeah.Jonah Angeles  20:43  Or, you know, she used to, well, specifically, Harry Potter and children's books like that, like, my mom used to read that to me when I was young. And I just always appreciated the written word. Um, and I've always just wanted to myself write magic into it, like, write like magical words, you know, there's, there's magicto  language, there's like, when you come across a passage that really hits you, there's magic there, you know, that, like a passage, that gives you chills, or this feeling that you just read something that was true, or something that was really resonated, something that really resonated with you,  Or even something that rocks your world, you know, that I get those feelings when I read, like, just really good writing. And I want to I want to be, I want to be responsible for that feeling for invoking that feeling in people. Yeah, I don't know how else to describe it. And I don't know what else to say about that. Because it's, it's very intuitive to me. It's just, it's just in my nature to write. And I guess, yeah. I've always been immersed in literature and stories. And, you know, as much as I love movies, like stories are rooted in oral tradition, right and like, language, stories are rooted in in verbal communication, or just linguistic communication. And yeah, I love telling stories. And making people feel things. Yeah.DJ Psyched  23:03  Definitely. And I think that that is something I think a lot of a lot of writers can say is that it kind of just comes naturally after a while, especially when you have a love for reading originally. So one thing so that part I think, comes naturally to a lot of people too. And one thing I find interesting because when I, when we first like, I don't know, online met, I guess you say when when we met through Reddit and like, ended up like doing these podcasts together. I thought your concept was really interesting and pretty, like relatable. The Overthinker's Anonymous thing, just kind of letting yourself talk about whatever you want kind of making a free flow space. And I see that in your writing you also don't hold yourself back, which was something I really resonated with because like, I agree that having like a niche is really important for a lot of creators, but I personally have a hard time with that too. That's why I create so many different kinds of content. So how how did you go about like, was it easy and natural for you to get that kind of, I guess, concept flowing? Like, was it just like oh, yeah, if I'm going to make something clearly it's going to be very free like this, it's going to be whatever topic I want or did it take you a while to find yourself to where you are now like to come up with the podcast? Do names and stuff come easily to you? Or was this something that you tweaked over time?Jonah Angeles  24:23   Hmm. I love how you shovel on these, you pile on these questions and just spark up these these networks of thought these neural networks in my mind. And now I'm like, experiencing analysis paralysis of where where I'm going to go. This is kind of, this is very on brand for me as an over thinker to just not know where to take the conversation next. But um, can you can you rephrase the question?DJ Psyched  24:59  Yeah, definitely. So, as far as being a creater goes, I think a lot of people yeah, tend to have, do you got an answer? Or do you want me to try and explain it?Jonah Angeles  25:08  Um, I, I feel like it, it's always it has always come naturally to me. Like, just creating just, and not limiting myself to one thing. In terms of names, I feel like names come naturally too, I feel like I just discover my process or my process is one of discovery. I, I tend to find the words, as I write them. And I tend to find stories as I write them, I tend to discover a podcast as I record it, I don't have a set plan, I'm more of a gardener than an architect in terms of like that classic distinction that writers make between like plotting a story and, like, plotting it from, like making blueprints, of where a story is going to go or a roadmap, as opposed to being a gardener and just planting seeds and seeing what sprouts. That's not to say that I don't like planning though I do like to plan, but not to the point where it restricts me because like you said, I, I don't really want to carve out a niche. Because that would feel too restrictive. And I personally just, I personally just want to discover things as they as they happen. Like, it's, it's the spontaneous side of me wanting to, I guess, develop works, without imposing too much expectation, or too much of my desires of what I want a work to be. Because with with my novel, for example, with my medium articles, I might have an idea. But you know, that idea might change or transform or evolve into something else entirely. And I'm not going to stop it from doing that. I like to just, again, discover what a thing is, or what a thing wants to be, it sounds strange, because it's almost like I'm treating it like a living being separate from myself. But to me, that's kind of what it is, on some level. It's kind of like, a child, you know, like, that I'm raising, I'm not going to impose too much of my own expectations on a piece of writing, or on a on a work of a piece of visual art. I'm going to help it develop into what it is, if that makes sense. DJ Psyched  27:57  Yeah. Yeah, that doesn't make a lot of sense. How long, I should have asked this question earlier, actually, how long have you been writing? And on top of that, just so it's not too complicated how long have you been writing? And since you started writing, has there, has there been any big things that you've learned maybe about yourself, or about the craft or anything that maybe you wish you knew back when you started?Jonah Angeles  28:21  Um, I've been writing since I was very young. I guess I've been writing my whole life. I, to be honest with you, because like, as I said, my mom read to me when I was younger, and she'd also write down stories that I tell I orally, just say stories. They'd come to my head, and she'd write them down for me. And we staple them together in little books. And I think it's so awesome but once I was able to start writing, I would do that myself, I just write I'd staple these pages together and write stories. I think I might have been like three or four years old at that time, or whenever, whenever, whatever age it was, where I was capable of writing stuff down with a pen or a pencil. That's when I first started writing stories. But um, so yeah, when I say my whole life, I don't know, I've always I've always been a storyteller. And yeah, I've always done that. For as long as I can remember, I've always written short stories. I, I know in junior high, I developed an obsession with reading short stories, and publishing them online for online communities. I really just grew up in the perfect time to be a writer, you know, I am a child of the internet age, I was born in the 90s so you know, I kind of grew up on the internet, as a lot of people have in this day and age, but I found a writing community, or writing website called Storywrite, I don't know if they still exist, but they were kind of like wattpad before wattpad is I think, Wattpad is like the big, big name now in the community, Like a community based, an online community based on sharing your writing, I might be wrong. There might be another one, out there other than, like, you know, medium and in terms of short stories, like, I feel like wattpad's the main one, am I wrong? I think,DJ Psyched  30:40  No, I think wattpad is the main one.Jonah Angeles  30:42  that's the name that comes to mind when you think of like sharing short stories online, right?DJ Psyched  30:46  Yeah.Jonah Angeles  30:46  I used to write for wattpad, too, when wattpad got big. And, yeah, and I've always just been a writer, and did I answer all of your questions?DJ Psyched  31:00  Well, the the part that I'd really like to focus on at the end of this podcast is kind of what have you learned? Like, is there any lessons anything big that stood out to you?Jonah Angeles  31:09  Okay, and if there's anything that I wish I would have known,DJ Psyched  31:13  yeah.Jonah Angeles  31:14  in the past, um, honestly, I wish I would have implemented a structure like made  more time for writing way back when. But I don't know, it's, it's not that big of a deal now. Because like, I do make time for writing. Now I do sometimes, well, I try to make an effort to, you know, carve out some time in my day for writing. But back, then I didn't have a routine, I didn't have any notion of setting aside time, I guess well, back then at that same time back then I did have more time to write. So it's kind of a moot point at this point. To say that I wanted, I should have made more time for writing when I did have a lot of time for writing and I did spend a lot of time writing, but maybe more of, like, I guess, for people listening to this, who want to get into writing, I think having a routine and carving out time to write, rather than just writing when you feel like writing, which is what I've always done for most of my life, up until recently. Up until the past few years. For me personally, as a writer, it really helps to have time, time out of your day, dedicated just to writing. I also feel the best times to write are, and this is just my personal preference is either when I wake up, or when I'm about to go to bed. So either really early in the morning, or really late at night, because that's when the ideas are more accessible, in my opinion, or even after I meditate. If I could go back in time, I taught myself to meditate more. And try to find ideas through that through meditation, because that silence is the default mode network, right? It takes you out of the default mode network of your everyday mundane way of thinking, and, you know, puts you in a state where you're more open and more, I guess, you attract more ideas. Because I, to bring it back to the idea that these works are kind of like separate beings from you, like I believe I do is are also alive in a sense. And doing things that take you out of your default mode network, like meditation, or even going for a walk, or anything that puts you in a flow state will put you in a mindset for finding fishing out these novel ideas, so to speak.DJ Psyched  34:11  Yeah, that's actually a really good point that you bring up having one like a routine for writing. I think that's something that a lot of people lack, including myself, I definitely have been trying to etch in more writing time because I do think that I used to do the same thing. And I still do a lot of the times like I just write whenever I'm just in the mood, but that kind of can sometimes leave me with periods of time where I'm not writing. And I completely agree on the walking thing. That's actually one of I think, not just walking but finding that time to mentally just be in the writing or just be with yourself and just being out of the chaos of the world because I find that the times that is hardest to write is like during the day like you're completely right if you write during the day, you have all These worries in your head, you got work to think about, there's all there's always chores to do around the house. And it's just there's too much going on. And it's hard to like writing is something you have to be in, you have to be very present in the moment. You can't write and multitask, you can't write when there's other things you're thinking about doing. It has to be in that moment, just writing. And I think, like you said, like a flow state. I think writing is one of the easiest ways to get into a flow state. Because I find that once I actually get myself down, and I start typing out, everything else, it doesn't matter for those few minutes.Jonah Angeles  35:34  Yeah, yeah, it's, it's like, you also have to just let yourself go, you just have to let go. That's a big part of the process is not rereading what you just wrote, and then judging it, because that's something I tend to do, too, is having, like typing out a paragraph and then rereading it, and thinking, Oh, that sounds stupid, why'd I write that? And it's better to just let yourself write until, until you run out of words. And then also, don't judge yourself too harshly for what you wrote. Because it's not like, every word you write, or every sentence you write is going to be gold. That that has, that takes a process to, in order to make something that's in order to make gold when it comes to writing it. It takes a lot of time and effort and energy. But I guess, part of the whole letting yourself go thing is also that ties into the whole discovery aspect of my process is just exploring it, there's an exploratory aspect to that. And just, you know, finding, finding ideas, because they're out there, you know.DJ Psyched  36:56  Yeah. Jonah Angeles  36:56  And, and not criticizing them too much. Because that's when you're overthinking that's that's when the thinking too much. happens when you when you think too much you inhibit yourself from creating gold. It's it's alchemy, really, you know, I guess that's what writing is to me. So I should have said that earlier because that's more dramatic and more, more poetic is to call writing alchemy. DJ Psyched  37:21  Yeah. Jonah Angeles  37:22  Because Yeah, you're, you're really creating gold out of like, the building blocks of reality, which is language.DJ Psyched  37:29  Yeah. Jonah Angeles  37:31  or information. Yeah. DJ Psyched  37:36  Sorry, I just lost my thought.Jonah Angeles  37:38  That's okay.DJ Psyched  37:42  What were you saying? Because I think I can find it again.Jonah Angeles  37:45  Oh, let's find this thought this runaway away thought. alchemy, gold, building blocks of reality, this is very philosophical and metaphysical to say.DJ Psyched  38:01  yeah, what I was gonna say was that, it pertains to something you said a while ago, is like not controlling what you do, but kind of letting it be what it wants to be. I think that the importance to me at least of meditating, or being in a very calm and clear state, when it when creating anything, but especially with writing is that usually, I'll have an idea, right? Just a small idea, a very small idea when I go into writing, I usually don't even try to like have a set title when I start writing. Because if I already deem, what the work is going to be, it's going to sound to forced, what I try to do is just like, have the vague thought, like, what is it that I'm trying to say here? What is it that I'm trying to write, and just start writing and usually, like, I'd say, 99% of the time, when I just let myself write, based on one thought, it'll come out completely different than I envisioned it when I started writing. And it's whenever I try to make a writing too specific like over plan it, that it doesn't end up sounding good to me, or it doesn't end up feeling real. Like it has to be like, when I'm sitting there writing, I'm in such a clear state, and I just let it be, or else I feel like, it just becomes obvious that I overthought the whole piece and the the point, usually, I when I say a concept, I mean, I have just a vague concept. As I'm writing. The epiphany happens, and you can almost see it in my writing that moment where I realized what the point is, because I don't have a word limit or anything. It's not like I ever write and I'm like, Okay, I need to write this many words. I'm just like, I need to write until I get whatever the point is. And I don't know what the point is usually when I start something, but by the end of it, I'm like, Okay, I understand the point. Now my readers can understand the point. This is where it finishes. Do you have any kind of like process like that for your writing that you do or is free handing, like a big part of your process too?Jonah Angeles  39:53  Yeah, definitely. I do like to have titles and overarching concepts and basic direction, a  single direction, at least, or maybe a, let's say, let's say I'm going down a highway. I'd like to be going north, rather than going like North and then going trying West, like I like to stay in one direction and see where that takes me. DJ Psyched  40:22  Yeah. Jonah Angeles  40:24  Or I just switched lanes and try another, try another direction, or switch switch highways maybe. Or this is this whole thing this whole metaphor is infinite. There's so many places you can, you can take your writing and it helps to have structure and constraints. I took a writing class in university, one of my favorite writing classes, actually called story games. And I was gonna shout out my professor Thomas warden. He's dope from the University of Alberta. Yeah, I was a creative writing minor, by the way. Just thought I dropped that piece of information for the listeners. Yeah. Sorry, for the big for the long pause. I'm realizing that your listeners don't know a thing about me. So yeah, I graduated from University of Florida with a psych degree, major in psych and minor in creative writing. And I took a class called story games. And that class is all about writing within constraints, and within certain sets of rules. So what was the name of the, the the Ulipo? Hold on the Ulipo I think I'm butchering the pronunciation, but it's a it was a, this was a gathering of French speaking writers. In a university. I don't know if they were, I don't know if they were they were based but um, Oh, is it the college? The pata physic, it's a French college, it was a subcommittee called Ulipo. Kind of like a student group, I guess. And they practice writing within constraints and different structures and just ways, ways in which you can, like, I guess, restrict yourself as a writer, in order to create because if you if you have no restrictions, and you're just totally free to write about whatever you want, it can be difficult to settle in on or to hone in on on a one overarching theme or idea or direction or point. But if you have, if you write within a certain set of rules, or a certain structure or a certain technique, maybe like to give you an example. Maybe maybe you want to write from the perspective of,  of an animal, or, you know, first person like you, as a writer, you have certain narrative modes, right and points of view, you can view those as constraints. But like, you can even take it a step further by, you know, writing of a constraint, they're constraints. Here, I'm looking on the Wikipedia page, s plus seven or sometimes called n plus seven. So you replace every noun in the text with the seventh noun after it in a dictionary. So for example, call me Ishmael, some years ago, becomes call me Islander, some yeggs ago. Y E G G S. Interesting. So this is obviously like a game you can play with your writing. But that can lead into maybe a new story idea, or you know what I mean? There's also, one of the techniques I used was using tarot cards to plot out a story. And you don't have to, like, necessarily write about save. Maybe you drew, you know, seven of pentacles. You don't have to write about like Pentacles or seven. You can maybe write about a night or a character who found like, seven, sometimes seven items or like seven macguffins. And went to, I don't know, a hotel, or what, a space station or I don't know you can there's so many sources of information around you. You know what I mean? And I guess one of the if you're to take away any, anything from this rambling it's that ideas are all around us. And if you restrict yourself with certain rules, you're able to better allow those ideas to flourish maybe. Does that make sense?DJ Psyched  45:26  Yeah.Jonah Angeles  45:28   Yeah, please cut that. Please edit that down. Totally, totally lost my train of thought as I was speaking. And yeah, but it's hard to explain without concrete examples. But like, even even rhymes, rhymes are a form of constraint. And you can choose a certain rhyming pattern or even like Shakespeare's use of what's it called, Iambic parameter. That's another example of a constraint about what you said about titles, I think titles are a good way to add limitations to what you want to write. And I guess, there could be a delicate balance there of like, not restricting yourself too much with a title because the title is obviously going to influence what you're writing about. And I, I come from, like, I guess where we differ, I come from the standpoint of liking to work with titles and finding the story from the title. But at the same time, I do like the other way around to where you don't have a title and you find the title after you write the piece. Yeah. But if I'm doing it the first way, where I have a title, and I'm finding the piece with the title in mind, that title isn't concrete, it can be subject to change, too.DJ Psyched  47:03  Yeah. And, and that's kind of what I meant more. So it's not like I don't ever have any title when I start writing. But whenever I write, I put a title down that I know I'm not going to keep because I think the title is going to be influenced by what ends up happening in this, in whatever I'm writing, because there have been times where I like I have a title, and then the concept is in it. And when I finish, either there's some phrase that really stands out to me in it, or some concept that really pushes through and I'm like, okay, the title will reflect the piece better if I change the title at that point. So I understand what you're saying. Because I mean, if I were to just sit there and write and just be like freehand absolutely no concept, I think none of the blog posts, I make whatever makes sense. But having like, certain limitations, and I think that's where the concept of like a niche or like, for me, I guess I like to think of it as, like a fluid genre when I write, because there are like, certain topics that I like to speak on. Like, I think, for me, personally, nonfiction is a big thing, because I'd like talking about growth and topics in life. But I think what's what's important to me is not to restrict myself from allowing myself to bring other things in. Because I think, while having one concept is, is vital, honestly, for writing, because if you go too many places, your piece isn't going to make sense. And it's going to be harder to enjoy while reading it. There's got to be like that one central theme. But what I like to think of it as if we're going to use the highway analogy is like, you've got a highway you're riding on, but you still want like pretty scenery around that highway.Jonah Angeles  48:36  Yeah. True. I like that. I like that. And you want you want the ride to be exciting. Yeah, to and you don't want it to be predictable.DJ Psyched  48:49  Yeah, and I think like with this analogy, to me, the most essential thing is that one, the story starts somewhere, right? You got to get in the car at some point and then go down the highway and there's got to be a destination because I think the biggest problem I had when I first started writing is that I never really stopped the car anywhere. It's just like, the highway ended and the car never stopped. So it feels like the ride has to stop you know, like it doesn't make sense to go on a road trip with no end.Jonah Angeles  49:16  Right. Makes sense. Yeah, I really like that. DJ Psyched  49:23  So I guess my last big question that I want for you is do you have any like Golden Nugget I guess something vital you'd want people to take away from this. Maybe something about you or something about writing you know, I'm gonna give you free rein to go wherever you want with this.Jonah Angeles  49:44  Okay, well, as I mentioned, I do want to bring up that no death no fear book by Thich Naht HanhDJ Psyched  49:51  Yeah. Jonah Angeles  49:53  Who is a famous for writing about meditation and Zen and Buddhism. And, yeah, I think one of the passages I was reading, right before this interview was how, in order for certain flowers to blossom, during the season, the conditions had to be right. And that's kind of like a metaphor for a lot of things to me, not just life. But for writing, like you got to have, the conditions have to be right. And there's a lot that you can control in relation to that in relation to putting yourself in the right writing mindset, or, you know, doing what you can in order to arrange the conditions in order to make the stars align, so that your writing can be it's best, I guess, to put out your best work, and I think what I've learned is the best writing. Or the best times, for me to write is when I'm actively living my life. And I know it's hard to live your life, quote, unquote, during a pandemic, but for me, the the right conditions of writing is for when I'm, you know, live having experiences that inspire me, or talking to people that inspire me, or going places that, you know, challenged my, my everyday perceptions, or my everyday, my default mode network that, you know, places that put me in a flow state places that show me new things that give me new experiences. I don't know when I'm, when I'm having the time of my life, when I'm falling in love, or when I'm getting my heart broken. You know, that's when I get a lot of really good material. For good art, is when I'm, you know, living my life, I guess it's the best way for me to put it. It's the most general way for me to put it and I know it's very abstract. ButDJ Psyched  52:11  yeah,Jonah Angeles  52:11  that's, that's when the right conditions are, one of the right conditions for good writing. and good material is when I'm living my life, and I'm not holding myself back from living. I have to gain experiences in order to transmit those experiences into my work. Because if I'm just sitting on my ass, like in my room, or in my workspace, trying to come up with ideas, staring at a blank page. Well, you know, there's only so much I can pull from if I'm not living my life, you know what I mean?DJ Psyched  52:47  Yeah, I completely, completely agree. I think that is where all the best art comes from, when you're living, truly living and experiencing and making the art afterwards. You know, like, letting that be a guide for creating because I mean, art is a reflection of life, life is a reflection of art, yada, yada, but, but I think it's important to live and experience. I think that's where the best art comes from, I think it'd be impossible, honestly, in my opinion, to create if there wasn't anything you're going through, because I mean, everything I create, and I think any creator who's doing it because they love it, and is not doing it as a motivation of money or something. The reason you do it is because you're you want to create something relevant, something that you can relate to something other people can relate to. And you can only make something relevant if you're living.Jonah Angeles  53:39  Yeah, the human experience, right? We're all pulling from the human experience. Assuming that you're human and listening to this, if you're an animal or an alien, I guess you can write about the animal or the alien experience, too. But um, yeah, like, in order to, to plant seeds in your writing, you need to have the seeds planted in you. Does that make sense? That, it's kind of weird metaphor.DJ Psyched  54:05  Yeah,Jonah Angeles  54:06  I have the image of like, flowers sprouting up for my ears. And, you know, my, my nostrils and whatever orifice you want to name put. DJ Psyched  54:17  That would make a cool photo. Jonah Angeles  54:19  That'd be an interesting photo. Yeah, that's a good idea. I have to write that down for later. But yeah, in order to write about life, you had to live your life. Because that's what's interesting. That's what's that's what people like to read is, you know, they like to see themselves. People like to see themselves in what they read in the characters that they read. Or they like to relate to what they read. And I mean, or I do personally. DJ Psyched  54:51  Yeah. Jonah Angeles  54:53  That's where I, where I experienced firsthand is when I read something that resonates with me that I feel like I have experienced that too. Or I feel like I can put myself in this character's shoes or this narrator shoes and really understand what they meant, or what what the writer meant when they wrote that thing. Because a lot of the time, like good writing speaks about things that are universal, or things that are commonly experienced by humans. And as far as I know, it's just us humans who make literature, but maybe I'm being ignorant.DJ Psyched  55:33  Completely agree. Well, yeah. Thank you for all of that. Jonah Angeles  55:40  Yeah, thank you. Thank you. You're welcome.DJ Psyched  55:43  For Sure.Jonah Angeles  55:43  Thank you. Thank you for having me. And thank you for sharing your that we share too.DJ Psyched  55:53  All right. Well, yeah, I guess our main following the, I guess, metaphor of the podcast we did on your page, which I want to let you get, have a moment if you'd like to just shout out that podcast again. So everyone knows where they can find you after this?Jonah Angeles  56:09  Yeah, that podcast is called Overthinker's Anonymous. It's available on Spotify and anchor and wherever you get your podcasts, I think, except for except for Apple podcasts, but I could be wrong. I think it might actually be on Apple podcast. just haven't haven't checked. Yeah, don't quote me on that. Yeah.DJ Psyched  56:32  All right. Well, thank you again for being on again. And stay psychedJonah Angeles  56:39  Stay psyched. DJ Psyched  56:40  Thank you so much for listening. The intro and outro beat us on this podcast was made by my friend and producer PME. He's super talented, so make sure to check him out. His links are always in the description. And as always, let me know what you're getting psyched about. I do this podcast because I think getting psyched is done best when we do it together. So please let me know and until next time, stay psyched.

This week on the PRISM podcast, Dan Harden and Mike Chapman reveal the process of creating the By Design TV series for a mainstream audience. Chapman also discusses expanding the popular California show into America by Design where Harden will judge the nation's best innovations. Episode TranscriptDan Harden 0:04Hello, and welcome to PRISM. PRISM is a design oriented podcast hosted by me Dan Harden. Like a glass prism that reveals the color hidden inside white light, this podcast will reveal the inside story behind innovation, especially the people that make it happen. My aim is to uncover each guest's unique point of view, their insights, their methods, or their own secret motivator, perhaps, that fuels their creative genius.Dan Harden 0:32I am speaking with my friend Mike Chapman. Mike is the executive producer of the multi TV series by design, and director of MWC. Mike has over 30 years of experience in the TV industry as a director and producer. He has a long history of creating programming for a variety of markets, especially around Australia, New Zealand, and more recently now in the United States. Some of Mike's credits include being a series producer and executive producer on Big Brother, series one through 10, Getaway, Holiday, Australia's Most Amazing Homes and Passionate Players. He manages a production team from his home in Melbourne, and now is his pad in New York City.Dan Harden 1:14Mike, thanks so much for coming on. And where are you actually now in the world?Mike Chapman 1:20Oh, boy, what a first question. I'll try and give the simple answer. I was coming back from Copenhagen, where we were doing some filming we have in our show, we'll get into that, I guess that international spotlights so we were doing some design stories in Copenhagen and I had a connection in Paris, and then they wouldn't let me on the plane. I was flying back to New York. And that's where I learned that on an Australian passport because you might have noticed, I talk funny. I'm an Australian. And they won't they won't let me back into the US unless I go via, there's like a workaround where you can go to Mexico for two weeks.Dan Harden 2:10So you're in Cancun, I'm guessing.Mike Chapman 2:13Yeah, on a little island off the off the coast of Cancun. The translation is Lady Island. Probably some of your listeners might know of it. It's a It's a lovely little place. A population of 12,000. And it's just a lot of Americans here, actually. And it's really, if I if I've got to be quarantined somewhere, you're right. It's, it's not so bad.Dan Harden 2:39It's not bad. It's like 10 o'clock in the morning, and I now see that you have a margarita in front of you. So yeah, thank you so much for doing this because I guess you're on vacation.Mike Chapman 2:51Well, kinda.Dan Harden 2:53So Mike, so one is it's it's awesome. You're doing these projects in the United States of America by design. We did California by Design, New York by Design. I was I was a part of this. And it's been a real fun experience for me to working with you, I must say. But I think for our listeners, you know, I want to really just kind of figure out especially like, as a lifestyle documentarian in the work that you're doing in Australia. What led you into this world of design and telling stories about design? I know this started in Australia for you. Because Yeah, Australia by design, which ran for three years, right?Mike Chapman 3:33Yeah, it's still going. Is it five years actually, we started five years ago, in 2016, was series one, on on channel 10 in Australia, which is kind of like the CBS, if you will of Australia, owned by CBS, in fact. And, yes. It's just the, the format has really surprised us actually. The idea of the show is that we're talking about design, but it's an accessible format. Which, if you if you want to be on Channel 10, or if you want to be on CBS, like we are in America, and you want to talk design, it's got to be an accessible format. It's got to have interest levels other than what you and I would like, I mean, I'd be quite happy to just do pure stories on design, and I'm sure you would watch them as one story. But a CBS audience or a channel 10 audience ain't gonna do that because both the Australian market and the American market we're quite immature with our design tastes, I have to say. I don't mind talking like that. You're an American, and I'm an Australian. I think we could talk about our own places. Compared to say, Italy, or where I just was in Denmark, where the guy digging up the road, kind of has a has a much greater understanding of design and where it fits into our world.Dan Harden 5:15Yeah. Alright, so, but when you were doing this on Australia, you started out on this trip, what led you in that? Like, why? Because you had other lifestyle projects. You were, I mean, the list of your credits that you were across so many different fields. But what led you into design? Were you invited by a team to talk about design and to elevate this to to television and the public?Mike Chapman 5:37Yeah, I was actually making one of those. HGTV style, ‘reno' shows at the time, it was it was a show called Love Shack. I didn't call you for that one Dan. But it was basically renovating holiday homes, that very HGTV style, it wasn't on HGTV, but it's the best way of describing it. Full of Jeopardy, had a couple of people that were famous for being just famous, basically, who were the front people and we renovated this place. So the architect on that show, is a bit of a character. He actually sat me down when on set one day, we were just sharing a drink in a break. He said, you know, you could do a show that's kind of not highbrow design, like you might find on on Netflix. And the kind of show that Dan Harlan might seek out with a, you know, glass of expensive wine in hand, instead, and yet not make a show, like we're on the set of at the moment on Love Shack, you know, mate. I think there's something in between. And that got me thinking, you know, because design doesn't have to be, you know, dished up to an Australian or American audience in such a moronic way, you know. Like, oh, wow, let's, let's love the cushions, and let's distract them and send them off and, over a weekend, we'll change their place. And they'll come back and oh, well, there'll be the big reveal. I mean, for goodness sake, I mean, that has its place, but it's just not a design show, they kind of call them design shows, which is ridiculous.Mike Chapman 7:36I guess I like to think we're making something that's a proper Design Show, you know, a show that actually talks about what design is what its impact is on on the world around us. And yet not, you know, we're, we have a spoonful of sugar, with the medicine that we deliver. It's still light, it's still still got some Jeopardy involved in it, there's a judging process, you know, all those things are kind of 101 audience retention devices. And so we still have that in the show. But we want to bring across, we want to bring along with us, the design community, you know, to make this something special, and make a difference in people's understanding of design.Dan Harden 8:27I do like how you bring in professionals to either present stories, and certainly to judge them. And that's how we met. Because I think in your third season, you invited me down to be like a guest judge. But I think for the listeners, let's describe your format. So what you do, you will select different stories from around, like when you were starting out in Australia, different manufacturers of products, like RODE microphones, for example. And there would be one or two products that you would then have a presenter go and interview them, like how did this come to be? And what what was the source of your innovation? What were your insights that led to even thinking about a new product like this? And then what did you go through, the trials and travails about getting something to market and then you reveal what the what the innovation is all about. So you're interviewing the individual creators, and the presenter is pulling out this information. And then there are maybe per season, maybe 30 or 40 of these stories that are then presented in front of a team of professional designers that then talk about evaluate, analyze, and then finally rank to select a, like a winning product out of those 30 or 40.Mike Chapman 9:53Yeah, that's right.Dan Harden 9:56Did you find it that format was working really well in Australia? And I remember distinctly having a discussion with you where I was talking to you about like, why don't you do this in the United States. The market is so big here, there's so many stories. That has to be 10 times larger than Australia. I didn't say 10 times better, I said 10 times larger than Australia. So because what I saw that one year that I did, that was like three years ago, was an extraordinary level of design happening in Australia, all over Australia, all the way over to Perth. And around the country. There were really interesting innovations that in areas that I hadn't really given a ton of thought. Uou know, there was like a shark wall that was placed, you know, 100 yards out from a beach to prevent shark attacks, which apparently are common in parts of Australia. And we've just never seen something like that. In the design, we're getting here in the United States. We always have this, this, put another shrimp on that barbie thing. But sure enough, there were like two barbecues that were being reviewed in Australia, there was that little firestarter thing. And I was like, well, you guys don't see this in United States. So what made you think that this format would work in the United States? And and why did you come here to do this?Mike Chapman 11:21Yeah. I think as it's turned out, I think it's more of an American idea than an Australian one. It's, you know, in the past couple of years of starting it in America, it's it's really taken off. So yes, you came as a guest judge, we flew you to Sydney. And that was great on one of our series there. And I do remember that conversation, yes, with you, where you're saying why why the hell do you not doing this in America? And you were, you weren't the first person to say that to me, but you were one of the stronger influences, no doubt about it. Because you were, you know, right from, you're the real deal. You know, you're a designer in Silicon Valley, saying that, we've just flown you out, bang, and that's your reaction. It's like, how much more evidence do I need? And with some of the other formats, I had done that such as Love Shack and so on, I didn't feel that they were worthy of trying to launch in America. But this one I did. I just thought we were onto something.Dan Harden 12:37Yeah, you know, I don't watch very much television in the United States. But when you do turn on television in the United States, you see, there's just so much mediocrity. And when I see, you know, these so called judging formats, and they might be judging something, you know, it's always around food, right. And there's a ton of creativity and food and, you know, everybody likes food, it's a kind of a common denominator for all of us, right? So it works. But, I mean, I find the creative process, just the most exciting thing ever, right? Like, to me, there's really nothing that can be quite as exciting. Especially, you know, when you're doing this every day, if you still feel that palpable sense of excitement, you know, there's something very real there. And, and yet, the public doesn't really have an eye into this world. Unless you're in this world of design or or if you're an, you know, an interior designer, a fashion designer, an experimental engineer, then you have this sense of what creativity is all about. But there aren't enough of these shows that elevate or expose this creative process. And that's why I was thought it was it had the potential of being popular subject matter on mainstream television, if told, right. And of course, it's all about the story. And because people don't want it, the general public doesn't really want to hear about the little design details or problems that we go through or some of the deep analysis that's required when you're doing, you know, hardcore design and engineering. And I think you have a special way of getting at the essence of what an innovation is about, especially as it relates to an individual and their individual, very specific problem. And so the kind of the encapsulating the essence of what an innovation is offering to somebody really is, I noticed when I'm working with you, either as a presenter or a judge, you've really tried to get to that essence, like what is this innovation really trying to do? And sometimes it's hard, I must say, as a designer to be able to step out of my way of thinking about a design problem. And to get it down to the basics, and you, you're good at like, just this distilling process just like what really what is it really? Like don't talk or think like a designer just, you know, give it to me the way that maybe a consumer sees it.Mike Chapman 15:23I know. I think any design problem is a great start to a story. It's got a beginning, which is the problem. And then there's the whole working through it. And then there's the solution. So you know, it's got a beginning, a middle and an end. It's just perfect for storytelling.Dan Harden 15:45Speaking of which, with these, these are all like micro stories, right? You take a project that may have lasted one or two years, and you try to tell this story in like, three, four minutes, three to four minutes, per story. I thought that was an absurd idea when I first started talking to you about this, and even reviewing some of these in Australia, but somehow you do get it down to like, Okay, I get it. You don't get you don't get the depth the struggle of of what really had to happen, you'll need it, you know, a season a complete season to go through a real product development, right?Mike Chapman 16:24But then who's gonna watch that? A handful of people like Dan Harden will love it.Dan Harden 16:29I know, when you were directing some of these pieces before I've witnessed this, and how you work. You're not shy about jumping in and saying, I don't care about that detail, skip it all together. I just don't care. And that rattles some designers because it because that may be the thing that they care the most about. And yet, yes, you know, it's the behind the scenes of product design and development that that we all want to talk about. And yet, you have to make that ultimate decision about whether or not somebody is going to be interested in that sometimes you do. You let a really cool little detail through that just really became kind of the linchpin of what made it great. And that's sometimes hard to find, it's sometimes even hard to get out of somebody, it's hard to get it out of the creator even because they've been living it. When you're living with a design problem for a long period of time, sometimes one or two years, you forget what inspired you two years prior, you forget what really made you just jump out of your skin when you made a sketch. And it's like, oh, my God, there it is.Mike Chapman 17:39Yeah, no. And we're always trying to find that moment. That is one of our key questions, isn't it? What was the a-ha moment? You know, and then they maybe dribble along. It's like, hang on? Wait, that's not a moment. You've just tried to describe a year. What was the a-ha moment? What was that moment, the difference? And often, that's a really good question to ask them because it forces them to think back in, okay. This guy wants a Hollywood answer. And then it's distilled.Dan Harden 18:12You had this idea to come to the United States to bring this format to the US. You chose California. And you call it California by Design instead of Australia by Design. Why California? And what was your experience? And how was that experience different than working with Australian designers?Mike Chapman 18:36Like any environment, it very much influences people and I think Californians just have a way about them that's, that's quite similar, the most similar of the Americans to Australians. So I think when we thought, okay, where are we gonna go first in America? I think it was all those things that and also the fact that I met you and was talking to you, and you're from California as well. It seemed like a great place to start. Not to mention real Center for Design in America, as well.Dan Harden 19:14If not, maybe the world I don't I don't really know if too many places like the Silicon Valley, especially Northern California, where so much is being produced. There's so much creativity. I mean, it's certainly rivals New York or Milan or Tokyo and other centers of design for sure. After doing a season in California, what was your impression?Mike Chapman 19:41Yeah, just so exciting, so much activity. I loved how the design community just embraced us. We'd done our research and we felt that we were special. You know, that we were doing something a niche that others weren't quite hitting. But it was confirmed well and truly by the design community, who I mean, you guys almost behave like a, like a cause, like a cause that needs to be better known in many ways. You know, in another life back in the 1800s, I was CEO of a charity for a while. And it reminded me a little bit out of that time, you know, of being a cause. Designers and the design community want to be more known, they feel they've got a good story to tell. And if only it could be told the world would be better, you might connect to some of that thinking. Yes. Yeah. And I identified that as well, I think so. So it wasn't that surprising, but it was delightful that we were so embraced by big shots like you and other designers, you know, who really could see what we were trying to do and wanted to help us.Dan Harden 21:09I think we've all been speaking on behalf of the design industry, you know, we get we are perhaps like an egotistical bunch. But you know, we are very proud of what we do. And, and yet, I think like a lot of creators and artists, I think, industrial designers, and maybe even graphic designers to a certain extent, and certainly UX designers, we all feel like we do have a really exciting story to tell. And yet there are just so few avenues to tell it. I mean, yeah, you can write blogs, and you can try to tell your stories, there's magazines and so forth. But for the most part, mainstream media has ignored design. To this day, if you tell someone Oh, I'm an industrial designers, some people's they'll say, Well, does it, What does that mean to design factories? Or what exactly do you do? Once you explain that almost every material good around them that is man made has some, obviously some design and engineering thought. And once people realize, Oh, my gosh, you mean people actually do that, that you guys invent these things and make them look good and work well and make them digestible by me, the consumer? They're fascinated. And yet, there have just been so few opportunities for designers to tell their story. So it doesn't surprise me that by the time you came here, that there was such open arms in our community for you, and to have this platform to tell these wonderful stories.Mike Chapman 22:41You have the skills, the intelligence, the process, the way of thinking to change the world. So I love my new friends. You know, because as a TV producer, I've actually realized that, you know, I'm a designer as well. I call it producing, but it's very much the same. How you run the show, everything down to how you fund it, how you make it, everything impacts on everything, you know. You if you do something here, that means this is going to pop up there, so you got to consider that. So it's the same.Dan Harden 23:17Yeah, it is the same. I mean, design, in the broadest sense of the word. It is. It's imagining something different, a change, and then strategizing a plan on how to make that change happen. That's all design really is. And then you want that change to be usually you want that change to be for a better result, a good, some, you know, smarts behind it, sustainability, some betterment of some kind that brings delight, joy, support, enablement to that end user. And, indeed, that's what you're doing when you are crafting a story, whether it's TV episodes, or a new product solution, or a new digital interface. That's that's what you're doing.Mike Chapman 24:08We want to tell these great stories that need to be told and deserve to be told. And but but but but BUT we have to do it in a format that allows us to be on CBS in front of a broad audience. My argument is, that's where the most good can be done. It's, of course, it's totally valid to have conferences and designers talking to designers about how they can do things, of course, of course, but I think there's a bigger job to be done in just rising the tide a little bit on the design conversation with the general population. And this is something that's gone on for generations in Italy, and in Denmark.Dan Harden 24:56It's part of their culture.Mike Chapman 24:57Yeah. Do you agree with me that Americans And you're probably scared to say about Australians, but let's stick with Americans that you know that we kind of have a or you guys, and Australians have an immature taste when it comes to design.Dan Harden 25:15You know, nowadays, I'm not sure if I would completely agree with that. I think were impatient, and we consume a lot. I would love to see this change. The understanding and the awareness of design has improved dramatically in the last 20 years, thanks to companies like Apple and Nike, just about every company now that takes design so seriously, that it's part of their corporate strategy, almost every company now employs some level of design or design thinking at least. And it's resulted in, generally speaking in this country, a much, much higher level of design than when I was starting out as a young designer. And it's taken longer than I would have hoped.Dan Harden 26:04]But I'll tell you today, now, especially, I mean, our moment has arrived, everything that we wanted all the dreams that we aspire to, as designers, it's happening in this country, there are very few limitations for designers, now. We are at the table with the CEO, the CTO, the CEO, we're there. And even as a design consultant, I mean, we are brought right into the C suite, to advise direct, strategize and come up with new ideas for where a company should go. So I think the awareness is there, I think, of course, we need generally more awareness in the public. And you know, why? I think when people have a higher awareness of just generally about what good design is, I think they're smarter about their consumption patterns, they might realize, well, do I really need this? Am I buying this for the right reason? Is itMike Chapman 27:04Like is it going to end up in landfill in a couple of years?Dan Harden 27:08Yeah. And also, just, I think it makes when you have a higher awareness about what design is, and what good and bad design are, it allows you to make just better choices that then ultimately do turn around when you're when you're consuming a product or an experience, whether it's digital or more material based. For it to provide that advantage, those benefits, you first have to be aware that the benefits are being presented to you. And then as you consume them that the final promise, the delivery of something good is, is offered to you. But without the awareness that you don't even know what's happening, you then happening, then you end up with a garage full of crap after 20 years of products that you really use once or twice. And that's why I think for me being involved in the show and bringing design to the masses like this, even if it's not that deep, you know, we don't end this show, we don't go into the depths of what we face as designers and engineers and inventors.Dan Harden 28:16Just having a part of the American narrative is helping a broader cause. And that broader cause being smarter about the things that you surround yourself with, smarter about the things that you consume, being just generally, more consciously aware of why you're making certain decisions. And this only helps you with every aspect of your life. Even non design related, when you realize that there are people behind what is being presented to you, whether it's an advertisement or a product, if you know a little bit about what you're looking at, you know a little bit about design it, it makes you more informed, more educated, and it makes you a better consumer, quite frankly. So I think that's a real benefit of your show. And I think that's why so many designers are coming forward and saying Hey, Mike, you know, I want to be a part of this. It's not, it's not to the old notion of like, Oh, I want to get on television. I don't. For me, it was never that it's more about telling this wonderful story of design to people that really don't know much about it.Dan Harden 29:38In television. I'm really curious, because when I went to Australia, and I saw your show down there, I thought everything is so nice. Everybody's being nice to one another. And in American television, there's always tension, you know, even Shark Tank, they're always looking for this moment where they discovered that these little companies aren't worth worth shit and, you know, and yet they're trying to get a couple $100,000 out of them. But American TV always wants the tension. They want something outrageous. They want the weirdo that's being exposed, you know? So how does your kind of filming philosophy work in America? Because it is very nice. I mean, you have some sponsors and you, you have to you are you present stories in a manner where it's kind of all tidy and buttoned up. But is it enough juice for Americans?What do you find?Mike Chapman 30:33It seems to be. Here we are. And I guess CBS would be a good authority on this topic. They love the show. And so after doing California and after producing the New York version of the show, our plans have leapt forward. What we were expecting to do was a was a series two of California by Design, a series two of New York by Design. Maybe add Chicago next. That was going to be our pathway. But having talked with CBS is like no, dammit. More is more, which is very American. Let's just jump straight to America by design.Mike Chapman 31:20We have plans by the way to celebrate California again and New York and to add Chicago and Florida is an interesting area. So is Texas, goodness me, Austin. I've learned a lot about Austin and what's going on there. So there's other regional shows that we will get to but at the moment, what's in our faces, eight markets around America, America by Design, straight away. And now we're going into series two, straight away of America by Design as well.Dan Harden 31:56So I think this particular podcast will be running during this season. So let's talk briefly about about what we just saw. Like I was a judge this year. And I saw Oh, no, we reviewed how many were there? 30, 38, 40? Something like that? It was pretty big selection.Mike Chapman 32:14Yeah. Just over 30 projects, I think 31Dan Harden 32:19Okay, so what were what were some of your interesting moments throughout those did you have favorite? Do you have either a favorite product a favorite story? Any funny little annectodotes?Mike Chapman 32:32I guess they're all my children. So I'm not allowed to have favorites. But between you and I Dan, I really love that ziptop for example. I love the story behind it. The woman Rebecca. They're in Austin.Dan Harden 32:54I love that one too. And yeah, you're right. She is just such an innovator.Mike Chapman 33:01Exactly. Everything that I love about design and throwing yourself behind, you know, believing in what you're doing. And she's like a serial entrepreneur. She's got a great husband, who's really got behind her as well, because you know, and she's the first to say he's my, my partner in all this, I couldn't have done it without him. Even though it's totally her project, but but he's an amazing support. I just love every little piece of that story. And then the product ziptop product, just so nicely designed the way that zip works at the top, and how it's how it's solving a problem. I haven't quite got to it yet, but I must order some.Dan Harden 33:45I like those. I would agree that was probably my favorite in the bunch. I liked that you just answered with the person behind it first, is what interested you about that story.Mike Chapman 33:58Absolutely.Dan Harden 33:59And that's one of the things about America by Design, California by Design other by designs, you get to meet the people behind the innovation.Dan Harden 34:06Yeah.Dan Harden 34:06That, just that just exposing that and celebrating those individuals that do this work, I think is one of the greatest contributions, your production team offers.Mike Chapman 34:19Thank you. Yes. That's really good to hear you say because that's what floats my boat the most is the people stories. Yes, a product drops out of it. And that's interesting. But yeah, the people and the passion. And that is why by the way, we also utilize designers as our presenters, our facilitators to tell these stories. You know, we could have got some fancy TV people involved, you know, an ex weather guy who's, you know, wants to, he's gonna say it just perfectly but no, we're more interested in the passion. And the end the knowledge that an actual designer like you, Dan, you know, you've presented some of our stories in the past that, you know, I'll take a hit on the performance not with you, Dan, you're brilliant.Dan Harden 35:13I don't know that for sure.Mike Chapman 35:17I'll take a hit on the performance, I'm more interested in the passion and the knowledge of design, because you bring a lot of insight into presenting those stories.Dan Harden 35:27I must say it's not a natural thing for most of us, like me, you know that have to do this. Because when you're staring into that huge glassy black lens, and you ask for, okay, generally speak about this. And that's hard. I mean, for an actor, they do this all the time, bam, bam, bam, it's out. But in my case, it was just like, Oh, my God, I gotta really concentrate on this story. And I'm used to sort of being in my head as a designer and drawing, and thinking, and creating and so forth. So it's a different medium. For me, it was a really, it was a challenge.Mike Chapman 36:05In that pressure pressure cooker situation you came through. I remember saying at the end, I think there was some tension as they typically is, on our shoots, there was some tension about whether we were going to make a flight or not as well.Dan Harden 36:20Stresses were piled up, man.Mike Chapman 36:24And I remember you delivered it. And then what do I say? Tv gold? Perfect.Dan Harden 36:32So it was nerve wracking, but in the end, fun, I'm really glad that I've been a part of this show.Mike Chapman 36:39Oh, that's good.Dan Harden 36:40Yeah. And I'm hoping that people are learning from it, increasing their awareness about design, ultimately, then talking about it. And I'm really curious to see how this is going to develop how you as a director will develop and how you will evolve this show, especially after you see the results from you know, season to season. Like, yeah, do you have any big visions about where you want to take this?Mike Chapman 37:07Now this happened. Not so much with California by design, but New York by design, I guess, is that New York magic? I don't know. But suddenly, we were being approached by other countries. I guess New York's kind of like Paris or kind of like London, I'm not sure. But suddenly, a whole bunch more people noticed the show and the format. And so we've actually had to put on somebody that whose job is just to start managing all these opportunities. And the UAE, Italy. Canada, you know, everybody's talking to us now. So we're in the process while trying to make a you know, our big break, which is trying to launch America by Design series. There's all that going all that noise going on behind us as well. It's welcomed, no doubt about it. And I just wonder how America by Design is going to go, how many more approaches? How many more levels of interest?Dan Harden 38:17So Mike, I can't thank you enough for talking to me today. It's time for you to finish that melted Margarita.Mike Chapman 38:26I know. Time for a second, I feel. Yeah. It's a real pleasure, Dan, to talk with you. I mean, you were one of our early believers. In America, well, even before America, you know, you're you're a very big reason why we ended up taking the step, bringing this fall back to America. You helped me believe that it was worth doing. So and that's certainly played out. It's absolutely been worth doing. And it feels to me that we're onwards and upwards. And hopefully you can keep, you know, playing with us. We love you as a judge. We love your comments. I'd like to get you back out on the field. If it doesn't freak you out too much and do and present a few more stories? Because I do enjoy working with you.Dan Harden 39:21Yeah, the feeling's mutual. So let's go create more good TV.Dan Harden 39:27Absolutely.Mike Chapman 39:28Mike, thank you very, very much. And we'll talk soon I look forward to seeing the new season. That's that's playing right now. Actually.Mike Chapman 39:37Yes, yeah. Go to Americabydesigntv.com. That's where you can find out where it's playing. And also actually a tip. You can you can watch the show on Americabydesigntv.com. So yes, it's on CBS. But what we have on our website is an extended version. So we don't have the the problems of, you know, the restraints of a CBS format. So we let the show breathe. The stories are longer, there's more insights from the judges. So that's actually quite a satisfying place to to watch the show.Dan Harden 40:16That's excellent. That could be more interesting or get more insight as to what what went behind these creations. I hope you put a couple of my bloopers in there.Mike Chapman 40:27I'm very careful to protect your image.Dan Harden 40:35Alright, Mike good pleasure talking to you.Mike Chapman 40:39You bet. Thanks.Dan Harden 40:40Thank you for listening to prism, follow us on whipsaw.com or your favorite streaming platform. And we'll be back with more thought provoking episodes soon.Unknown Speaker 40:50PRISM is hosted by Dan Harden, Principal designer and CEO of Whipsaw, produced by Gabrielle Whelan and Isabella Glenn, mix in sound design by Erik Buell. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

Always great to be able to chat with my good friend Jeremy Todd! Check out his new book "The Positive Side" as well as his latest FREE program to get you unstuck over at http://besthalfyear.com/ Brandon Handley 0:00 321 Hey there spiritual dope. I am on here today with my man, my man. Mr. The pauses. Mister, check out my book, Jeremy Todd Jeremy Todd is a motivational speaker. He is an influencer. He is a legend. Not only in his own mind, but in mine as well. I'm so excited to have Jeremy here. If you've been if you've been a longtime listener to me a and he followed me through three podcasting, another Jeremy's kind of a regular, but you you'll know that Jeremy was catching me I got to see like you were like the first. Right. The first and it's funny. We look all the way back to 2017, where neither one of us knew what the hell to do. And here we are like earlier just before this podcast got started. Well, I got upgraded Mike bargraph equipment. Yeah. Right. But super excited to have you on. But I always like to start this off with. And I think you've been on one of these already. But I'll ask again, you know, source speaks through us. Right. And there's a message that can only be delivered through you. Today, right now to to a to somebody listening to this podcast, what is that message? Jeremy Todd 1:22 Well, you know, I mean that several ways I go with this, but what you know why you were talking? It just really made me think about you know, when you say four years ago, when we first we first met, and there was so much insert uncertainty with my life here live, what we're going to do, why are we doing this? Where's that going? The biggest message for me, and it's really coming through right now. And when we're having this conversation is that, you know, we just never really gave up, we just kind of kept going and there wasn't like, it was almost like we're pulled through to time to basically this point. And I don't know how to really put it in quantified in the words, but it's almost like taking your hands off the steering wheel and allowing things that just happen to watch your life. And good things happen. You know, it's like a, you know, a bad crypto reference. But I'm watching cryptocurrency recently in this going way, way up, it's gone way, way down. But consistently, it's going up. And that's really how I felt my life is it's been for the last three or four years, you haven't the, you know, splitting up with my with the mother of my children having that move in a couple different times. So you can get these big downs, but also you got the big ups. But if I look back now, where I am today versus where I was four years ago, it's a lot higher, it's a lot. It's a it's a better place, even though I had these major drops in my life. It's just weird how that goes. And you know, I talk about this all the time, and even on my show about really just just getting through it. It's not about hey, I need to figure this out right now, I need to figure out what I'm gonna do the rest of my life right now I need to get through this shitty time right now. And I really don't really have to get through anything right now. It's just you're meant to be in that point. Why? Who puts you there? I don't know. But it's part of the life that's part of the journey. It is sometimes it's good to be in those in those bad low points because it builds you up and makes you stronger, makes you harder and makes you you know, all around a better person learning from the tough experiences. But man, I get I guess I just you know, going on that random tangent right there. But I just I don't know, if I've ever been happier in my entire life than I am right now. I feel more blessed than I've ever felt in my entire life. And maybe it's because of, you know, some of the things that that have happened in my life recently, you know, but with writing the book, and I appreciate you mentioned that and getting some of the things off my chest with that book. It's very, very freeing. And it's, it's also it's been happening with actually who I truly am individually, like, like, this is who this is my weird quirkiness. This is who I am. In all these things. They've taken time and they've taken time, and they've got to this point, and who knows what's gonna happen in the next three or four years from now, but I feel like I'm being pulled through this situation. By I don't know, you know, I have been the universe the way it's supposed to be. I don't know the answer to that part of it. But I just really like the momentum. And I like the journey and it says it's been amazing the last three or four years. So I know that really answered your question, but that's really what I'm thinking about. Brandon Handley 4:22 Trying to figure out this new new get new setup, right? I'm just trying to press the right buttons. It's awesome, right? I love the you know, you're saying you're kind of pulled through this kind of time and space to get to where you are today. And it really reminds me of of how mine started, right. And my kind of journey started because somebody said that exact line to me, right? I was like oh man, just, you know, the drink and sure and wanting to party and wanting to be this person that I had been for so long this identity that I assumed just kind of fell away. Yeah. Right. And he's like he goes you know, once you kind of know fall into the space you get Jeremy Todd 5:02 what you while you're messing with the banging down there. But this is another thing popped in my head too when I was when you were when you mentioned that I listened to a podcast just before I got on and I'm driving around town and, and it was a Jocko willing podcast and he had Dakota, Dakota Meyer on his navy seals and he's telling me stories and one of the things he also mentioned was, you know how lucky he is to have a support group, and not a support group to where, you know, hey, I'm you know, I'm mad, and this is bullshit and have someone say, Yeah, you're right. or not, maybe the support groups more like, you're wrong, Jeremy, you're full of shit, you know, you're not right. And I'm like, Oh, yeah, well, maybe I need I need. I have people like that in my life. Like you like a like a Donnie title like Elise Archer, and I never had these people. You know, I've got friends in my life for a long, long time that have been lifelong friends. But what's helped me tremendously is having these people that I can pull from, and talk to and be 100% vulnerable and honest with them, Hey, I suck at this. This is where I need to help that this is where, you know, this is what's going through my mind right now, can you help, let's talk about these things. But the biggest thing about that and having those relationships is actually being not only honest with the other people that you're talking to you about being honest with yourself and checking the ego at the door and understanding it, the only way I'm going to really truly get out of the funk or truly get better is if I'm 100% authentic and 100% vulnerable with the person having the conversation with. And I've been very, very blessed over the last three or four years to have those people. And that's made a huge difference in my life, maybe more than anything, is to fall on that support group. The people from all around the country, I mean, how you said you're in Pennsylvania, and I'm in Indiana, and Danny's in Florida, you know, he leases and you know, she's in Georgia. I mean, we got people all over the country now in that's made a big impact for for me and my life. And the most important thing about it, again, is that I've taken action towards that I haven't just sat there and say, Oh, woe is me. I'm like, you know what, I'm gonna call these people, I'm gonna go reach out to them, and then tell them what I'm thinking. Because we can all sit in our worries and all around our doubts and our fears. And we can stay there forever. But until we actually reach out and say, You know what, I'm tired of this shit. This is not who I am. That's not my authentic self. I need I need help. And actually take action, get the help. That's what's made the biggest impact for me in my life as well. It's just the authenticity of who I truly am. And saying that, hey, I need help. I mean, that's one of the most powerful words in the world is when you tell somebody that, hey, I need your help, you know? Brandon Handley 7:35 No, you're right. It's a, well, I want to kind of call attention to this idea that and you had them on, right, you had a PR rush on the idea of the full lifters. Right? It's not so much of getting this group around you have people that you're not it was I think there's a difference between like some people that you hang out with, and some people that support you, right, like, you've got the you've got this list of people that are supportive. And the I think they're calling you on your shit, they let you they let you kind of step in it, right? They let you you're like, Hey, this is what I'd like to go do. Yeah, if you're having a conversation with Elise, if you're having a conversation with Donnie, and you're like, Hey, this is this is, this is what I'm gonna go do. They say, you know, they might give you a gut check, they might ask you a couple questions. But in the end, they're gonna be like, well, if you feel like that's what you need to do to make this progress for who you are, and go for it. How can I support that? Like, what can I do to do you need introductions to somebody? Do you need? Do you need a brand bass? manager? Do you need any of that stuff? Right? Like, how can I help you? What, what is what is what do I have, that can help you to become who it is that you're looking to become? And I think that there's a difference between those people who are supportive, those are the people that we're talking about, versus people that you hang out with, because there's people that you hang out with, or just hang out with, or just hang out with. And those people like, you know, if I if I'm, if I'm sharing a couple pieces out of your book, right, like, some people that you might just hang out with would be the couple of people that like, you know, back in the day to smoke some weed. Like, they're just like, Hey, you know what, let's this is this is what we're doing today. Right? And then that's it, but those aren't the people that are going to be the ones that elevate you. Jeremy Todd 9:28 Yeah, you know, it's funny, I asked a question on my podcast the other day of pretty who I was talking to, I was talking to the founder of brand builder, or Yeah, not brand builders. Doesn't matter. No, actually, that show will be out tomorrow. But I asked him, Do you still hang out with the people you grew up with? And you know, it's interesting when you ask successful people that like that, it's most of the time the answer is obviously is no. You know, and I don't hate on these people. They're their friends and they've, you've kind of developed who I was as a child which is made me who I am today. You know, I don't, I don't hold any grudges, or I'm not upset with them, it's just over life and different experiences, you become different types of people. And then you begin following you know, the the old Jim Rohn, you're the average of the five people you hang out with, you know, you start attracting different people with similar mindsets that, you know, I can't have conversations like you and I are gonna have, like we've always had, with, you know, my buddies in the old neighborhood, you know, it's just not gonna happen, because they just they don't see that they're not. You know, they're, they're not, I don't want to hidden let's say in the word they're not let me sit for a better way to phrase that they just maybe have to just keep using the word not, but they haven't experienced some of the things that I've experienced to be able to open their mind and allow the universe or your actual soul to be able to communicate one on one with that, with that, that energy and that power. And that really allows you to open up and that and pause or pause. Yeah, Brandon Handley 11:03 that's totally right. So what allows for something like that? Jeremy Todd 11:05 Well, you know, I think a lot of times, you know, and I don't want to get into too hardcore random stuff, but I think it's with diet, I think it's food, I think it's how you, how you meditation, it's really focused in on your mind, and like, understanding how powerful the mind really is. And I think when you you know, if you smoke cigarettes and drink seven days a week, and you're doing all kinds of crazy drugs, or, you know, the lists are just eating terribly, I think these things block the connection with you and your inner soul and your inner being. The more cloudiness that isn't, that is there. It's just like, it's almost like I see these people that are just going through life going through the motions, and they're not really connected to that source energy and, and to be honest, I don't know what that source energy is, either. I don't. It's hard for me to grasp my small mind around that. But I can feel that the energies when I walk into a room, I can feel that energy, a positive energy or a negative energy. And I say with my, my youngest daughter Moyo, my only daughter me, I think she's extremely clairvoyant, I think she, she can feel energies better than anyone I've ever met my entire life, we could walk into a buildings, just but data just don't the energy here, I'm like, Alright, let's go, you know, to be able to be in touch with that power that is, within all of us, is something that is number one, because a lot people don't understand it, don't even know that it's there. Which is, which is, which is a problem, I think, it's it's a problem with society and communication and, and growing as a as a one big, you know, as the population we all grow together. And I think that's a problem that slows the evolution and the growth of a society in general. But, you know, when I, when I go back and talk about my daughter, and she can just, she can look at somebody and say, you know, I that person, I really liked that person's energy. And Brandon Handley 12:50 let me ask you this, right, like, and and did you feel maybe that it's has something to do with you fostering that in your child and not saying no, to her, her her being able to pick that energy up? Sure. So and I guess I'll take it a step further, is that is it that we all kind of have that innate connection, right? And instead of it being fostered in us, it was kind of like shunted away like, Hey, you know, what, you know, so I guess sounds like what you're doing, again, is you're, you're fostering that in your in your daughter, and you're allowing for her to explore these these gifts and this ability to not be fearful of connecting to we'll call it source, we'll call it like, anything like that, like her intuition. And saying, Yeah, you know, what is that? Tell me more versus you're just being correct. Jeremy Todd 13:48 And that's the biggest thing you kind of hit the nail on the head with there is I don't, you know, it's only my kids know, I don't tell them that that's hardly really ever I tell them no, and I just ask more questions. But why do you want to do that? or Why? Or in the situation, my daughter? What does that feeling like? Like, somewhat? like random questions? Is it warm? Is it cold? What color is that energy? You know, and really let allowing her to her mind to really focus in on that and knowing that she's in a safe place that, you know, we don't she's she can have those conversations, like you said, Well, I think, you know, a lot of society today that gets that gets beat down. That's not something that's really focused on I think it's the most important thing to focus on, by far, but I think it gets blocked through, you know, maybe it's, I don't know, maybe it's bad diet, maybe it's too much technology, maybe it's not being connected to the earth as much as I think people should be. There's all kinds of things there. But you know, what it boils down to, it's just when those conversations happen, I don't I don't tell her No, or that's weird, or I don't understand. I just asked questions. Wow, that's amazing. Tell me more. How does it make you feel? What does that look like? You know, these look these random questions, and then she'll just and she just goes on and on and on. On on her mat, you can just see it like, it's really, really a little bizarre because it's not that she's, she's not making it up. You know, you can tell when your kids are making something up. But she is so detailed, that she just, she just knows it. And she, it's like she's, it's reality for her. It might be Brandon Handley 15:24 real for everybody. what's what's on? Like, like I said most most is like, and we're saying most of society's like, she tries to shut that down, right? Or puts a fence up around that. What has given you the ability or the wherewithal desire to foster it versus just versus what the rest of society is doing? Jeremy Todd 15:48 It's good question. It's, it's not a single thing. It's been many things. And we've talked about some of those ups and downs throughout my life. And you know, I've questioned, you know, you know, again, me being five foot 230 pounds soaking wet. Well, like what, you know, why am I? Why am I this height? Why am I this tall when I was, you know, I talked about in the book when I was sexually molested as a kid. Why did that happen? To me, it's not, and I truly look at it, it's not good. It's not bad. It's just an experience of my life that I've had to learn from becoming a minimalist was huge, not being attached to, you know, to physical items, not trying to compare myself to somebody else about their bigger house or big car. And because I just don't really care, I really deep down, I don't care. And if I really don't care about any of that, societal, I try and check the ego as much as I possibly can. What will if you clear all those layers away, what it really boils down to is, hi, how can I learn from you? How can I get better? How can I be a better friend, a better parent, I just want to get better. And I want and I'm genuinely interested in people, like I'm genuinely interested in learning about experiences and what their thoughts are and totally non judgmental. Like, that's the other thing. You know, I think in the society, we're so it's so built up to we're fighting against each other instead of listening to each other. And that's shared and celebrated this, this mob mentality, if you're not with us, you're against us. And that's, that's a major problem with society. And I think it's, but it's not easy to get to the point where I'm at either, because I've had these experiences throughout my life that have really kicked my egos ass and just say, you know, whoever, you're not the coolest guy in the block, you know, you're not the best looking guy in the block. But you know, what, what I feel like I do have is this just just curiosity about life, and curiosity and people of how do we connect on a different level, I will never judge you. I will never, I'll never say anything hurtful to you. And if I do, it's unintentional. But I just want to learn and I want to get better. And I want to know what's after life. And I know want to know, I want to learn from different religions and what they believe and take all of this stuff together and just kind of live in the information. And that's what I always say, I don't know, what's what's, you know, what's going to happen next. I don't know what's life after death. I just want to live in all the information and just experience. Brandon Handley 18:18 Let me let me jump in. Right. So I think one of the one of the one of the things I'm challenged by maybe you can help me here is, you know, here's where we are today, right? This is, that's where you are today because of your experiences. How you know, if you had to talk to somebody where they are right now, you know, maybe yourself, you know, four years ago or five years ago? What's that? What's that conversation look like? And how is that different? Right? How can you impart some wisdom to somebody where they are now along the journey what would you say Jeremy Todd 18:50 the biggest thing and the one of the one of the most important things that I've really worked on is my is listening. And and I know it sounds so basic and so you know just what he had, of course you're gonna listen but before I was always listening to the person planning my response, and not even taking in and learning from the actual conversation because I would my ego was just so like, well I already know the answer to that I already know what's going on I want to give you my opinion and not even fully hear the question So as I've in the last few years I've just really I've just more sat on the sidelines and just watched and listened and listened and then ask more questions. Because if I if I if I focus on me if I focus on what you know how its explained this a little better it's it's I'm not trying to win in any situation I'm trying to learn from the other person and and really experienced that their life and in just listen in like manner. How did they get to this point? How do what can they teach me how to how do I get better and then I'm, I'm really this The other thing too Which is, I think it's important to I'm blown away with people's stories. When people think their story is not important, it's because you haven't found the right person that's actually listening to what, what you have to say, I think we are so tied into what we think society wants to hear, hear us say, we just tell people, whatever they want to hear instead of who we truly are as individuals. And I think when you start asking different, like different questions to people that they've never been asked before, it's it's amazing how people just start opening up and telling you, they're all all these goals and dreams that they have that they've maybe never told anybody. And they feel so much better with the conversation, I feel so much better the conversation. But it all started with really, truly being interested in the other person. And checking the ego and just listening and being fascinated with their story. Because everyone has an amazing story. We're just told and that our stories like everyone else's, and it's not, it's completely different. And I love listening to people and love hearing their stories. And the more you listen, truly listen, you learn so much faster. And I've learned more about listening the last in my life in the last three or four years, I probably did my entire life. Because Yeah, it's important. Brandon Handley 21:19 The idea of Yeah, I heard it recently. And it was Bob Proctor. So my guy, right, like, turn them off a little bit, and you jump back in again, and you listen, you know, you hear with your ears, but you listen with your heart. Right. I thought that was pretty powerful line. And then, um, you know, outside of my story, which ones had the most like impact on you over the past couple years? Jeremy Todd 21:51 repeat that, quote, repeat the question again, like, outside of what now, Brandon Handley 21:54 outside of my story. Which one? Which one, which one you think like, over the past four years has really motivated you or had the greatest impact on you? Jeremy Todd 22:06 You know, there's been a lot of stories and a lot of people that have impacted me tremendously. And you know, it's just so fun because some people push me because I'm selfish, a little jealous. Like I, I, I see my friends like, like, and again, it's just it's the ego talking again. But, you know, I see guys, like, you know, like Donnie Tuttle loved on me. You know, Donnie, and I were in a coaching company together and quit cold turkey. And he's making enemies just making great money and changing lives. And it's huge. And in what that does for me, and I want all of us to go to the bank together. I all want us to be successful all I want all of us to change our lives. But he motivates me. He is very humbling. He's very open. His story is pretty powerful. I don't want to get into like some of the other stuff that he that he struggled with, but but he begin those conversations that we have off the mic and that and outside that it makes us both better. It has really, really changed my life. You know, it's funny, this something small recently happened to me last week, and I was I applied for a TED talk here in Fort Wayne. And I got turned down. So I'm, I was I think I'm more excited that I got turned down, then I got accepted. Because it gives me this, like, you know what, a few pals. You don't say this, like this. That's what I needed to prove to myself, but I'm on the right path. Because that if you can't accept me in my own hometown, to speak a TED talk, because I got a TED talk. I think it's on my vision board. And I want to get that done. But for them to turn me down. that inspires me as well. Because it's just it's, it's, it's almost like the University in here. Jeremy, I know you wouldn't be on on do this sets off, but you're not quite ready yet. And like, you know what, maybe I'm not a dog. I'm gonna keep fighting. I'm gonna keep doing I'm not gonna quit. That's, that's, you know, those two stories are completely different. But really that that that TEDx getting turned down from that made a really big impact on me recently. Because, you know, it's just like, it's almost like the universe politely saying, Jeremy, you're not good enough. Still. Like, you know what? That's cool, man. I'm not giving up yet. Brandon Handley 24:26 Right? I would look at it maybe a little bit differently. Right. I would look at it maybe as in shit. At least they emailed me back. They know who I am. For sure. I would look at it as kind of like evidence of things to come. Right. Like they My name is already. You don't know that. You don't know that in two weeks, whoever they they've already accepted. falls out. And then then maybe I'll check out this positive side guy. Yeah, maybe. Maybe. And Todd. And yeah, look, Danny's story is just so great because it's so So real, it's genuine, right? There's nothing fake about how he got to where he is. And there's no smoke and mirrors. There's any everything done for the right reasons. I just love it. Right. Jeremy Todd 25:14 Yeah, you know, it's one of those guys that I call a friend, you know, a true friend. And you know, you know, you are a true friend of mine. Dan is a true friend of mine. Lisa is a true friend of mine. I mean, I've got it's just beautiful as all these people are so beautifully authentic. And in it for the right reasons. Like they, you know, we're doing this because we love what we do. And we're changing lives not fake. We're not doing this to get become billionaires. I mean, there's a lot of other ways we could do that. But Brandon Handley 25:43 a lot faster. Yeah, for sure. Initially, I was right. Like, I wasn't in it for the right reasons in the beginning, and but that's all part of my journey. Right. And I love it. I love it. I love I love that that's been part of the journey. You've mentioned the universe, and you've mentioned kind of like, you know, spirit and energy, you know, and it's been maybe a year since we kind of talked last word, what's your stance these days? Man? What do we got? We've got a grand architect is what is what is fear? And how's it working through you and for you to you these days? Jeremy Todd 26:17 You know, it's, it's, it's very interesting asset. Because I think about it, I literally think about it every day. And it's weird like it, you know, when I was born and raised Catholic, so, you know, sometimes when I felt I found comfort when going through my 20s and early 30s, of praying at night praying to, to a God that, that, you know, the white bearded guy. And you know, as that kind of evolved, and I kind of got away from all aspects of really, of any, any sort any, any kind of like a structure and religion completely gone out of that. I go back to, like, even like, like last week, two weeks ago, I thought I caught myself, like praying again, which is really weird. But it's not praying to the same God. It's praying to this all knowing power of energy, whatever that is, and I still don't know what it is. I don't there's something there's got to be something there. And I don't know if it's I don't know, man. I why, Brandon Handley 27:25 why Why? Why is there got to be something there, right? I mean, Jeremy Todd 27:28 I don't know. Yeah, you know, you know, I had a guy on there talking about a few weeks ago, and he's got something retreats, the whole retreats. And you know, he specializes in suicide. And I asked him and I asked him, his Is there life after death? Is there a god? And he said, unequivocally 100% Yes. And as you'd go through these different journeys of these mind altering experiences, you see that how much more is actually out there and we live you know, in this one dimension of of whatever my my quote unquote reality is, however, when you take mind altering drugs, you realize that there are so much more going on within the brain within this universe within this realm. Again, it goes back to it's just so gigantic, like how do I even comprehend that and I you know, not to go on Tinder, but even like space and time continuance, you know, there's, there's theories of you know, every black hole has a million other galaxies and universes with a million other black holes in them that continues to go on forever and ever infinity. And then you know, the multi universe thing where exactly what we're doing right now is happening on another planet. A billion trillion miles away on some random planet that's very close to ours. But maybe it's my podcast called the spiritual spiritual open near the positive side guy. Yeah, yeah, but there's just there's just all these things that I think about and I'm like, Well, is there one all mighty power being that is running all of this? The universe is from billions and billions of galaxies away? Brandon Handley 29:02 I can't read something outside Do you think it's something outside of you? Jeremy Todd 29:07 I don't know. Maybe not. Maybe Maybe that maybe that maybe that is the maybe that is one of those but I I just when I look at how massive everything is and with the universities and space and galaxies like how can there be one all power being for everything? Is this the only unit is this the only I guess universe that we are is there's your multi universes is there different things going I don't I can't grasp my I can't grasp that concept. So I don't and then that's why I live in this like study of just listening to things feed trusting my gut when things are going well. I feel like there's like that little energy that is above me of powerful me but like you said, maybe it is me itself. Maybe I am that it Eternal energy I just had, it's just a lot to think about. And I don't try and even claim that I know what the hell's going on. I just, but I listened to everybody and understand that I'm not smart enough, I don't know enough to be able to make that decision to decipher that set makes any sense at all. It's so big to you. It's Brandon Handley 30:22 fair, it is big. And it is a lot. I mean, look, that's the that's the gist of this podcast, right? How do you? How do you kind of once you once you come in contact with that source, right, you felt that you like, and it's like now now that you're here, right? You know, had Krista on the podcast, and her podcast title was I'm awake. So now what? Right? I'm like, God, what a perfect podcast name. But yeah, so you're awake. Now? What? How do you incorporate this newfound levels spirituality? Or re connected with your spirituality and your like? Because I mean, conversation earlier, you're talking about like, you don't need anything, you don't need XYZ, you're detached from the necessary, you know, all these things. Right? Well, what's the keep you Jeremy from just, you know, rolling out and coming a monk at this point, right? Jeremy Todd 31:17 Well, yeah. You know, I don't know, I know what you were talking about that to what I was kind of thinking about is, you know, it's interesting, when when I think about this, this energy or whatever, this, this higher power sources, it's interesting, because it's not always there all the time. So, you know, I'll go through days where I'm just going through the motions, it's normal day, and I'm just a normal person living through let me ask Brandon Handley 31:39 you this, I'm gonna I'm gonna jump in. Right. Yeah. Is it? Is it that it's not always there? Or is that you're not always aware of it? Jeremy Todd 31:47 I'm not always aware of it. Brandon Handley 31:48 100%? Because I would have to say, I mean, this is this has been my experience, right? I would have to say that it's always there. It's, it's kind of up to us to tune into it. Right. It's like we're driving around, you're driving around. You turned into a podcast earlier. Yeah. You turned into you know, Satan, same thing. You're like, you know, what happens if I tuned in and soars right now? What source? What source up to? Jeremy Todd 32:08 Yeah, exactly. And that's what's it's just very interesting, because, and I agree with you, the source is always there. However, it's it's am I tuned in Am I not tuned in and, you know, it's, it's like the typical person, a lot of typical, but, you know, when times are really, really good, you're like, man, Hey, thank you source energy, this is all good. When times are really really shitty, you're like, Oh, my God, I need your help. And then every once in a while, in the middle, it's like, you know, I'm just gonna check in here and there. But that's one thing I'd like to work on is just as really be, you know, just get better just can be more present, be more in tune with the with that energy and understand that it's always there. Things are happening. It's just, you know, hey, I'm just an average Joe just trying to get through it and working my way through this complicated mental test that I always think about. And I wouldn't have it any other way. I mean, I really want it because I just find these conversations fascinating. And that just allows you to be needed to remind yourself and think bigger and think. And just really think I mean, that's what I really enjoy Brandon Handley 33:08 about that. Right? Let's talk about that for a second. Because you are having an impact, right, regardless of whether or not you feel like you're driving it through, you know, spirituality or some other way, for the, for the purpose of this podcast, you are driving it spirituality, you know, through a spiritual sense, you know, what kind of impact or you feel like you're having out there in the world today? Jeremy Todd 33:30 You know, that's, it's a great question, because it allows it, you know, the first answer is, I don't know, it's just, it's an ego, like, you know, I know, I'm making a big impact out there, you know, and you got to give yourself permission to say that you are making a big difference. And it's okay. You know, I mean, it's okay to say that, and I've worked really, really hard on that. Because, you know, you and I had a conversation about two years ago, that made a big impact on my life. And this is very similar what we're talking about here and that question, because, you know, we talked about how I use, I use when I want to go to Chipotle, I've been there forever. And I always I always buy the person behind me launch. And that when I run out before they could actually get now acknowledge that, you know, bottom lunch, because I wasn't accepting that, that time of gratitude. Like it's okay. To have someone thank you for that. You know, and so when you ask a question like that, it just makes me go right back to that question that you asked, you asked me. So that's made a huge impact on my life. And I've actually tried to share that story about 1000 times because it's, it's so right, man, it's so right. So if I go back to the question in my what what kind of impact my making I'm thinking I truly make? I think I'm making a gigantic impact. And it is it's it's not numbers wise, you know, and I'm not trying to say I'm making a billions and billions of people changing all their lives, but the lives that I'm changing are gigantic. I had, you know, I get emails, you know, once twice a week that just say, you know, Jeremy I found your podcast, I tried to commit suicide three weeks ago, and I didn't know what I was gonna do I, luckily, I didn't go, I didn't succeed at doing that. And then I stumbled across your podcast, then how it's made such a big impact in my life in such a short amount of time. So when you talk about making an impact with that person, that that one person's life, and I know, there's more out there, and you know, I've got stories and emails, which I still save, because it makes it makes me feel good. But that one person? I mean, is that person going to have a, you know, another, it was younger person, I think, mid 20s? Maybe that Brandon Handley 35:34 person worth it? That's worth it. All right. So it's all worth it, though. It's funny, because he says, you know, you don't feel like you're touching maybe billions or millions. But if you think about it, right, throughout the course of at least four years now, you know, with each person that you that listens, you know, throughout the past, you know, of course of four years, how many people have they talked to and interacted with and that network kind of the year that the multiplier effect over over time? I'll bet you by now, you know, you've you've impacted at least a billion. Jeremy Todd 36:09 Yeah, yeah. And that's a good point, too. Because you know, it You never know, the whole butterfly effect and how it's affecting people down the down the road. And like, you've said, that young lady reached out to me, man, I mean, who's to say she has a, you know, a beautiful family has a couple of kids after that, and then changed her life? And has these kids like, what changed the world? You know, for sure. Brandon Handley 36:26 You just never know, the change in the world. Right? Like, I mean, yeah, no, you don't know. So you know, if we're, if we're talking about somebody or something, and I got to imagine that, at a certain point, you kind of you were pulled through, like your insides, right for gut feeling to do your podcast, right? You were pulled to you know, you're like, I gotta get on the mic. Yeah, right. Um, what do you think is part of that? What drove that? Jeremy Todd 36:54 It was really the I mean, it was the the opportunity to make an impact. I just, I'm a firm believer that we all have this message, we all have this message in, I have been blessed with the gift of gab, to tell my stories, and be 100% authentic, to allow people that have going through the same things that have gone through the same things to say, hey, it's okay that I went through these things. And you know, I talked about it one on one. I'm not trying to do a cheap blog, but in the book, I talk about, you know, me when I was a younger, yeah, that's right. Getting getting molested from a friend, you know, and there are so many people that this has probably happened to that, that have lived with this. Now, when I put the book out, and I had even another family member reached out and said, this is completely different situation. But she said she went to the same exact thing. I have been blessed with the gift of gab, and I've been blessed with the confidence and the, I don't know, if you want to call it arrogance than to say that I don't, I just don't give a shit what anybody else thinks about me. I truly don't I truly don't give a shit. If that's true, and I know this ability, that God higher being, whatever you want to say, has given me this opportunity, if I don't take advantage of it, what impact what negative impact would that it made on the world and the lives that I should have changed that never did? You know, it's like the where's the most successful place in the world, it's, you know, the the cemetery because we all we die with these ideas in our in our mind and never put them out there. And I wasn't going to allow that to happen. The podcast started out originally just you know, I knew that this message would need to get out. But over time, like everything is chatting a little bit more authentic, a little bit more real and the lives that has changed and are getting bigger and making a bigger impact. And but it's I was given a gift and and i'm using the gift to share the message man and you know, I friends, I'm sure you have said the same thing that you've had people tell you what are you doing? You know, why would you do that? This is stupid doesn't make any sense? Are you making any money? That was? Brandon Handley 39:05 Absolutely that those are a couple of the next questions. Right. So you know that the next question really comes from you know, you've got these naysayers, right? You've got these people that are doing the Kukui crap, right? The the people that are you know, you're you're in there and they're trying to pull you back down. But you move move ahead. Anyways, there has to be a little bit of fear and trepidation and that you want to talk about getting through that. Jeremy Todd 39:33 I had a lot of fear. I was, you know, a lot of it was just anger. It was, you know, it showed me that and this was partially mostly my fault as well that people didn't really know who I was. people's opinion and thoughts of me was not reality of actually who I truly was as an individual because I I played to society. You know, I was like, everyone Yes, I did. You know, I had the nice cars, I had the big house, I did all the, you know, I would partying all the time with all these random people that you look back and they're still doing it. And that's, um, but that was never me. That was never who I truly was. So, and I, you know, I don't want to say use the word blame, because that's that's saying that there's a negative connotation to that, but it was my fault that I wasn't really being who I actually was. Brandon Handley 40:24 You were you. You were, was it true, then you maybe had a little bit of victim mentality? Jeremy Todd 40:32 Yeah, for sure. I mean, you know, if you go there with with, with my height, and you know, some of the personal stuff I went through 100% Yeah. 100% and, Brandon Handley 40:40 and just just so what is victim mentality, then? What's that mean? Jeremy Todd 40:44 Well, for me, it was like, it was why I've been screwed, because I'm the short guy. So I'm gonna overcompensate and try and try and prove to other people that I'm, I'm just as cool as you are, quote, unquote, cool as you are, even though I'm five, two, and, you know, I've got a, you know, a bonus shoe as well. And I've got all these other issues. But, you know, it was almost like I was I had to prove to others and not prove to myself that I was worthy. And that that was a cyst or something, you know, I probably still struggle they can relate to it just said that out loud. That makes a lot of sense to me. Now that I just said that out loud that I, I tried to prove to others who I was, instead of proving to myself who I actually was, you know, and I think when I accepted that, and really, man, hey, I'm, I'm 40. I'll be 43 here a couple months. I probably haven't accepted that. And so I was probably 3849. You know, but that's my journey. You know, it's that's how long it took me. It's not right, wrong or indifferent. But that's how long it's taking me to get to this point now in my life that I just, I'm happy with who I am. Brandon Handley 41:47 I gotta wonder sometimes if that's just not the natural evolution, you know, that's when it's supposed to happen. Yeah, it's as I was listening to something the other day, and I forget exactly what it was. But like, you know, you can't rush that kind of thing. Right? You can't force it. Yeah. Right. And, and you can't time it, but you can get pretty close to the time. Yeah. So then the, give me a spiritual dope, right? So give me an idea of what's a hit of like, kind of spiritual dope for you. Jeremy Todd 42:21 What is a hit for spiritual dope from Brandon Handley 42:24 so you know, spiritual dope is like, you know, just when you're feeling connected to source, right, so what's one of your hits? Jeremy Todd 42:30 By far, this is the one that most I love this time of year. I mean, yeah, this time of year, and reason being is when I can walk outside, and I can walk their feet barefoot in my backyard. And I can be 100% connected to what would actually connected to nothing, you know, but connected to myself, and then the planet and the birds and the bees and the flowers in the wind. And that, that, that, you know, you get euphoric. I mean, I get chills just thinking about it. Because that's, that's what life really is. That's like, that's like the basis of, of reality of life. And when you walk back into the house, or walk back, get back into the car, it's like, you're right back into society, and you're like, it's just a different world. You know, years ago, when I was in California, were the greatest things I did. And I'll never forget this as I watched the sunset, for 30 straight days in California. And I would go out on this little bench and there was, you know, the sunset was set over this, this like little valley. And, you know, I'd always look at all the different colors and all that, and just how beautiful it was. And I would sit there meditate, or just take deep breaths in breaths out and be present in that time. That's when you know, like, spiritual dope, that's about the biggest hit of spiritual nobody could possibly have is because that's, that's when you know, things are bigger than you. And, and I just feel so much better. I feel like I just have so much more energy and so much more meaning to live. And this is why I'm here and I need to enjoy this. And so the springtime and you get to the winter of gray and everything like that. It's terrible to the winter, and even today, we're a couple inches of snow, which is terrible in April. But next week 70 it'll be 70 degrees on Monday, and I take that time like what I said outside and just listen to the birds and the wind and just be at peace and it's the best thing in the world for me. Brandon Handley 44:23 I love it man connecting with nature, Jeremy Todd 44:24 right? Absolutely, the most important thing I can do. Brandon Handley 44:27 So something's gonna happen. This didn't happen today. But I'm gonna do a little bit of conversion on this podcast. I'm gonna shorten it a little bit. And I'm gonna turn it into a little bit more of kind of like a spiritual speed dating Jeremy like, you know, somebody who's kind of speed dating Jeremy Todd today listening to podcast and they're like, Am I spiritually attracted to Jeremy Todd, right. So I think I'm gonna ask you like one or two like these kind of random questions that are it's actually 20 questions that came up and like, talking to, you know, some of the top 100 spiritual people, right can, you know, let's take one segment of the easier ones? Um, what is wisdom? And how do we gain it? Jeremy Todd 45:10 What is wisdom? And how do we get it? You know, I think, for me, wisdom is it's the it's the tough times, but it's not the tough times. It's how you react to the tough times. Because I, I, you know, it's kind of like the deal failure question that I asked on my on my show as well. But wisdom has. I've been through so many tough times, you know, so I look back. And now when tough times happen, I reflect back on how I react in that situation. And I'm like, Well, you know, I learned so much from that situation that I'm not going to react is one of the strongest things I do is when there's turmoil, and when there's aggression and arguing, and I am the the calmest guy in the room. I just sit there and I'm patient. Because I've learned that when you when you the first reaction you have in a situation like that is usually the wrong one is coming from a place of where Wait, wait, wait, wait, the Brandon Handley 46:02 first reaction is not the best one. Jeremy Todd 46:04 Yeah, correct. Yeah, for me, it's 100%. For me, it's not. And but but that takes that's that takes time. That takes wisdom because I've been down that road where I've made these decisions, where it's just a snap decision. Like, man, I shouldn't have said that. I've, I've learned how to sit back and relax. How'd you how'd you learn to cultivate that? It was really through breathing. And that's been the biggest thing for me. And you know, when when, when you're in that situation, you feel like time's going by a million miles an hour, I've learned to just kind of sit back, take two or three deep breaths. And it just allows your brain to reset and what's kind of wild, whatever, which I love is, Brandon Handley 46:41 is there any kind of just, I mean, is there any kind of certain breath that that is right? Like, I mean, can you illustrate that for somebody that might be looking to figure it out, for me, Jeremy Todd 46:49 it's easy, it's just through the nose, I mean, because there's so many other pathways through the nose that it allows your brain to to absorb the oxygen a little bit different than it is to your mouth, and through your lungs. So it's very, very slow. And then I always pause, send them out through the mouth. And then it's a shorter breath as well through the nose. And it just allows you to gain composure. And and what's been amazing about that, too, is that allows the other person that has been super aggressive, almost kind of pause. And then you can almost see gears start changing with other people. It's, it's beautiful to see. But I do that with my kids. I do that with, you know, relatives, to get an argument with, I'm just, I'm not calm, cool. Like the guy just I just don't get upset anymore. I don't you won't catch me raising my voice you won't catch me yelling at anybody. Because I just sit back, relax, take that deep breath and then ask questions. Brandon Handley 47:46 I love it. What, um, what are you up to man? What's next? What's up? So, you know, where should people kind of go and connect with Jeremy Todd? Jeremy Todd 47:54 Well, you know, I'm really focused on my YouTube channel. I've got 175 people there. And I put a lot of videos up there, I put all the podcasts, put the money motivation on there, that's super important. Instagram has been great for me as well. And, you know, the biggest thing for me is I've signed there's been a few people that have come on to the, to the coaching program recently. And, you know, it's interesting, and I always tell the clients that come on, hey, this is all mindset coaching. And I know there's all kinds of different labels for coaching and that's something I always struggle with like, Am I a sales coach, I'm am I you know, you know, they're all the other cliche words for coaching and then some, I think it waters it down a lot but I think as overtime that when you listen to the podcast and you know how focus I'm mind setting in gaining this knowledge that people have started reaching really reaching out to me working on one on one with me, and it's been a salad changed my life, but to change other people's lives as well in you know, down the future, I just decided to work with more people. That's always fun. So you can always find me on YouTube and Instagram and you know, LinkedIn and all the other places. But I think one on one is probably the best, you know, shoot, you know, shoot me an email Jeremy at Jeremy Todd calm and you've got questions. Hopefully I got the answers. Brandon Handley 49:08 And we're new Where can I find your podcast? Jeremy Todd 49:11 I'm everywhere. You know, iTunes, Stitcher, Pandora is but actually been great. I've been I've had five or six people in the last few weeks, reach out to me and say, I found your podcast on Pandora. So it's just search and Jeremy, you'll be able to find me really, really quickly. Also on on iTunes, you can find me quickly there. But also, you know, keep in mind on my Facebook page, I put all the videos up there. You'll be up there here in about a week or so is to be great. And then on YouTube, but all the interviews on YouTube as well. So some people you know, it's depends how you take in things that are your audio and will listen to you what are you going to actually watch it? There's several different ways to catch the podcast as well now, but it's going better now than it's ever been. And I'm just excited about the future. Brandon Handley 49:51 I think I think that's fantastic. I think what you're what you're illustrating is is persistence and passion in action. Right? You know, you've decided to, to, to, to continue with this thing. And what I love is that you've continued it throughout the quote unquote bad times. Right? Yeah, the tough times. And they say that that's kind of where the character shows up the character, the character of a man, or a person doesn't show up in as much in the good times as it does the bad times 100%. So I appreciate that you've been able to maintain the podcast, continue to look for the positive elements. And from my from my perspective, positive doesn't mean like, Hey, this is all sunshine and roses. Positive means how do we make progress from this point that we're at today? Right. So I appreciate you leading the way I appreciate your friendship overall, all these years and not just being able to have these conversations and I'm really proud of you but for getting your book out the positive side, how I overcame bullying, bankruptcy and a bad attitude. My true identity. Brother, thanks so much for being nice. I appreciate you, brother. Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Hi, I am here with Merrick Rosenberg. He is is a keynote speaker and thought leader on personality styles and team development. He co-founded Team Builders Plus in 1991 and Take Flight Learning in 2012. He is the author of The Chameleon and co-author of Taking Flight!CHECK THIS AMAZING WEBSITE BY MERRICK FOR MORE INFOhttps://www.takeflightlearning.com/me...JOIN NOW!! AND BE PART OF MASTERMIND PROGRAMlearn how to activate yourself for a better future!https://createanewtomorrow.com/master...CHECK THIS LINK FOR A FREE GIFT FOR YOU!https://www.createanewtomorrow.com/giftDO YOU WANT TO BE OUR NEXT SPECIAL GUEST?Book an appointment now and let's create a new world together!https://booking.builderall.com/calend...CHECK THIS OTHER WEBSITE FOR MORE INFORMATION!https://www.CreateAnewtomorrow.comhttps://www.Achievehealthusa.comCreate a fundamental change in the global community from a strictly reactive system of medicine that focuses on symptom and emergency treatment to a proactive system based on whole-being health as well as illness and injury prevention. Personally teach and influence at least one million people.We are a multifaceted Health and Wellness company that specializes in Corporate Wellness and Culture Consulting, Industry Speaking engagements and Continuing education for the industry.We Help corporations by solving the most costly problems they have with Productivity and Health Care while creating a culture that thrives on accomplishment and community.We help organizations think outside of the box and gain tools that allow them to be nimble and strong as tides and markets shift.We Up level the skills and tools of other practitioners by providing them continuing education that actually leads to greater success and standing in the business community.++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++Ari Gronich 0:00  I'm Ari Gronich. And this is create a new tomorrow podcast.Welcome back to another episode of create a new tomorrow I am your host, Ari Gronich and today with me is Marrick Rosenberg. And Merrick is the co founder of team builders plus, which was in 1991. And take flight learning in 2012. He's the author of three books, personality wins the chameleon and taking flight. These are all books about tapping into the power of your personality. So this is where it becomes interesting, because we're going to talk to tumeric today about personalities, and the ways in which these personalities define the reality that we live in. So he doesn't know that yet. But he does now. So Merrick, why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself how you got to forming this system regarding personalities, and how it may differ from some of the other well known personality discovery tools out there. SoMerrick Roseberg 1:22  by back in 91, as you mentioned, I started one of the first team building companies in the country. And it didn't take long to realize that, wow, people just don't get along. And teams are dysfunctional, because of personality, that people just don't understand each other, they don't understand themselves. And, you know, the reality is the most self aware people are the happiest, and they tend to achieve their goals in life, they tend to have happy relationships. And that led me to this exploration of understanding personality styles, and they're just for so many tools out there that were using letters and colors was like an alphabet soup. And it was confusing. People just didn't remember it, you'd go back six months later, and they're like, wait, I'm the red, which one's red again, or I'm the this letter that letter, it's like, okay, it's got to be easier. And I taught it like that for a long time. That's how I was taught to teach the styles I worked with, with over 100,000 people teaching personalities, styles, too. And, you know, I go back, and people just weren't remembering it. And that's when the birds flew into my world and just came up with an easier, more visual, tangible way to teach people about themselves. And of course, everybody else in their life, too.Ari Gronich 2:33  That's awesome. So, you know, tell me a little bit about the birds and how, how you came about them? Because, you know, again, you like you said, most people I'm a green, I'm a red, I'm a green, red, I'm a yellow blue. Or I'm an inf G or a j FY. And there's all of these different kinds. So tell me how you came out came about finding this style. OrMerrick Roseberg 3:05  if you go back to the early 1900s. And even 1000s of years ago, in the early 1900s, William Marston had put together what he called the disc model, which was di sc. Now, it was fascinating. It was just rang true. But what's what's really cool about that is, is it paralleled what had been around for 1000s of years to Greek culture, the ancient Chinese civilization all over the world, people had four style systems, they called them different things. in corporate America, people tend to know them as the disk model di sc. But I just wanted to make it easier. And I was teaching the letters and I found that people weren't remembering them and, and I wanted to write a book about it. And I've kept feeling like, I'm gonna constantly have to say, the take charge D, and the energetic, enthusiastic eye and like, no one's gonna remember that. And then like I said, I wish it was visual and symbolic and like in a flash of insight in a moment, like this download the idea of, of linking it to four birds came to me and then I built a whole business around it, because it's just a matter of teaching people about themselves and the birds made it easy.Ari Gronich 4:12  So which bird is which personality? real quick? Yep.Merrick Roseberg 4:16  So speed version. I think of an eagle. That's what's called the dominant D style. Eagles are take charge assertive, they are bottom line, results oriented, that power pose you could see almost like that, that superhero. I'm in charge, power pose. Let's make things happen. The eye is what's often referred to as that interactive or influencing style. Parents are social, they're talkative, they're outgoing, everything's all good. Always works out. They're the eternal optimist. They just bring energy and fun. The dove is the supportive, very sensitive s style. dubs are caring and compassionate. symbols of hope and peace and love all throughout the world. They just want everyone to be happy and get along. And owls are that conscientious, but it's the sea style. owls are logical and analytical and thoughtful. We always think of them as wise. But of course, any style can be intelligent. But we attribute that to them because they're so thoughtful and there, they look like they're processing and taking in information. And if they're going to do something, they do it right. So that gives you the four birds that assertive D fun parrot. Caring dove, logical owl.Ari Gronich 5:35  Alright, so we're gonna play we're gonna play a little game. You ready?Merrick Roseberg 5:39  I'm ready. All right.Ari Gronich 5:40  So I haven't I haven't done this before. I do haveUnknown Speaker 5:46  a little bit of noise.Ari Gronich 5:53  So we're gonna play with some of my toys I haven't played with before. And I'm going to name somebody and you're going to name a personality to go with that.Unknown Speaker 6:03  Hopefully,Ari Gronich 6:04  I'm ready. You're ready. Okay. So we've got Albert Einstein.Merrick Roseberg 6:09  So Einstein much more of an owl very logical, very analytical. He's interesting because he had a little bit of a parasite. It was actually kind of a funny, funny guy. But But our primary style for sure. And everybody's not just one you could be a combination of multiple styles.Ari Gronich 6:23  Absolutely. Elan musk.Merrick Roseberg 6:26  Elon Musk is interesting. He certainly has a lot of Eagle take charge I want to go where no one has gone before that like James T. Kirk, but he's got a lot of parrot to the I'm gonna send my my car to Mars. I mean, who does that that's a parrot thing to do.Ari Gronich 6:45  All right, Bill Gates,Merrick Roseberg 6:47  Bill Gates, very much of that owl style, very logical, analytical. I mean, if you think Microsoft is the name micro soft of its detail, when you first started the company was creating little mini programs. I mean, so well.Ari Gronich 7:03  Alright,Merrick Roseberg 7:04  Gandhi, Gandhi very much the dove, that caring soft spoken, compassionate style, but he also had some Eagle which is interesting, because he, he was very much the that what I call that activist style, that picture that dove, we care about people and that Eagle, I'm going to fight for people's rights, but not with aggression, but more with that dove patients but we will win which is the eagle so it's kind of a double Eagle combination style. Very interesting pattern.Ari Gronich 7:33  Okay. Martin Luther King,Merrick Roseberg 7:37  actually very similar to Gandhi has that Dove Style and the eagle they're very eloquent style because they speak both with compassion and conviction. And so Gandhi, Martin Luther King Obama all shared that style.Ari Gronich 7:52  Okay, Muhammad Ali.Merrick Roseberg 7:54  Muhammad Ali. You know, you think Muhammad Ali a boxer you think Eagle comes up? But no, he actually had a lot of parrot. He was fun. He was funny, but very compassionate. He had a parrot and a Dove Style, which is very atypical for what we would stereo stereotypically think of a fighter. People. Everybody has stories of just what a nice caring, compassionate guy he was.Ari Gronich 8:17  Interesting. AllMerrick Roseberg 8:18  right. Let's go with Trump. Trump that dove right now definitely not enough. He is. He is the eagle. Kind of all. Eagle all the time. Direct, assertive bottom line, take charge confident that is the picture of an eagle. It would be Donald Trump.Ari Gronich 8:38  All right, Biden are getting eaten by politics.Merrick Roseberg 8:42  Yeah, much more of a parrot and a dove. He always has that big smile. very empathetic and caring. And look, he's made a lot of gaffes throughout his career. He's always done it. That's a parrot thing to do. There's a thin filter between thinking and speaking. And parents sometimes say things out loud. They're like, Oh, no, can I say that out loud. And then he has to walk it back at the parent thing to do with ease, but he has a lot of love to very caring, very compassionate.Unknown Speaker 9:07  Alright, Bernie,Merrick Roseberg 9:09  Bernie. Bernie's got a lot of Eagle. Very just, um, take charge. I'm doing my own thing. I'm gonna be the one independent guy in the whole Senate. I don't even care if you don't agree with me. I'm doing what I want. But he also has a little bit of dove in there. Sometimes he has those moments where he'll you'll see tears forming in his eyes. He's just so passionate about what he cares about.Ari Gronich 9:28  Yeah, he does have a bit of a, you know, posture of an eagle at this point.Merrick Roseberg 9:34  Yeah, he is Eagle but I think he's got a little DuffAri Gronich 9:38  All right, let's see. Buckminster Fuller.Merrick Roseberg 9:43  I think a lot of owl kind of very thoughtful, logical, more detailed. Okay.Ari Gronich 9:52  Last but not least, let's see here. MadonnaMerrick Roseberg 10:04  is a great one. You know, I think she she kind of beats to her own drum, which is very much an eagle thing. But I but I think she also has a lot of parrot in there too, that just flamboyant, I'm just gonna put myself out there. I don't care what anybody else thinks. I think it's a combination of eagle and parrot. All right, so do you think what were you think those are accurate as Yes.Ari Gronich 10:28  I'm giving you my.Alright, so now that now that we went through this little exercise, right? personality types, four that are that are good for people who are leaders. So let's say you want to be a leader, you want to be a follower, you want to be the guy who gets on board. So let's, let's kind of map the personality types that somebody would need if they're starting a movement?Merrick Roseberg 11:05  Sure, well, here's, here's the first thing to recognize that there is no, this is the style of a leader. If you want to win, I always think of you're just activating that potential in you, you're getting yourself to that place where you're the highest version of yourself, accomplishing the absolute most you can accomplish in this life. It doesn't matter what your style is, your style does not determine how successful you will be. But your style absolutely determines how you go about being successful. So so I'll give you some examples that just kind of staying along this line of what we just did. Richard Branson parrot self made billionaire, Bill Gates out, self made billionaire, Howard Schultz from Starbucks, he is the dove I once heard him say, I want to create a company that my father never got to work at. I mean, it's just that caring, compassionate, dove, self made billionaire Steve Jobs, Eagle, another self made billionaire. Look, this is what you get when you are someone who taps into the power of your personality, and just takes your personality and creates something amazing. And that's what all of them did. So your personality isn't gonna determine how successful you are going to be. But you can bet it determines how you go about itAri Gronich 12:22  is a determine the position that you might take in the company like Bill Gates might take a position based on his personality he made the success may not depend on the personality type, but does the role that you playMerrick Roseberg 12:41  for sure. Look, when I meet somebody like Bill Gates, that owl style is overwhelmingly I see them in engineering and finance it. And and that's, that's his world, where somebody like a parrot, like I'll use Richard Branson, he's the marketing guy, his genius is in his marketing. And that's when you go into a marketing department, you go into social media, you go into a PR firm, you find tons of parents. So that's how he drove his success. parrot. sensationalism. It's dramatic, it's big, but it's over the top. And that's how he he put himself out there. So exactly, exactly, you will find certain people will be drawn to certain jobs, because that's what feeds them.Ari Gronich 13:25  So if you're hiring, though, if you're if you're looking for looking for team, right? How do you use those roles as your marker for what you're doing? Because I know a lot of people will just hire based on gut versus information. And soMerrick Roseberg 13:49  that's right. And the big thing to recognize is that you have to be careful that you just don't hire in your own image. managers do this all the time. You've got an eagle manager there, take charge and assertive. And they think, Hey, I was once in this role that I'm trying to fill. And I know what it takes to be successful. You've got to be assertive and dominant, and you got to stand in your power. And so what do they look for somebody just like that. But maybe there's a dove, who would handle the job very differently, but be equally successful. But you've screened them out because you feel like oh, no, no, I don't want that I know what I need in this job. So the first thing is you have to be careful not to impose your personality on this role, because someone else may do it very well. And we've seen this you could have a salesperson who's a parrot salesperson who's an owl, they're both fantastic, amazing sales, but you can bet they sell differently. And that's okay. And so the other thing that we sometimes need to think about in hiring is, am I filling in a gap in the team? Maybe I don't have any owls on our team, and we make quick decision and quick decisions. No But he says, you know, maybe we should think this through first, maybe we should consider the following have we thought about this, if you had an owl on your team, they would do that. So sometimes you could use hiring as an opportunity to fill in for one of these gaps that they're missing one of the styles, because when you miss one, it's a potential blind spot in your team. So it could be a part of the hiring decision, everything else that you're looking at background experience, all that's important. But I do think style that personality should be a piece of the puzzle. It's one part of it that if you leave it out, sometimes you're missing something significant.Ari Gronich 15:37  Gotcha. So let's go back to politics a little bit. And it's not going to necessarily apply the way I would think it would apply. But if I was to say, read, write, what personality types might pop up, or blue, what personality types might pop up, I believe that it's probably going to be pretty diverse, based on what you just said. So I'm going to ask you that in a little bit different way. What personality types are playing an effect in the noise that's being made currently, because we all hear about the silent majority, and the loud minority? So where does that silent majority play in their personality types versus the loud minority? Well,Merrick Roseberg 16:33  look, when you there's no doubt that when you have eagles and parrots, they're much more outgoing and boisterous that they don't tend to be in any kind of silent majority. That's true in a staff meeting. If you don't, if Eagles if you have someone who's an eagle parrot, and they have a concern, do you think they just sit there quietly? And don't say anything? No way. But what happens is I think we're seeing the doves and and owls are much more introverted, they're much more reserved. And they're being more energized now to speak, and then just say, we're, I think we're starting to hear a larger percentage of the population than we usually have heard before, which is often that kind of parrot, Eagle, loud, boisterous style. We're hearing more from the owls and the dubs than we've ever heard before.Unknown Speaker 17:24  Okay.Ari Gronich 17:27  So if we're hearing from the owls, I would assume, right, that the things that we'd be hearing would include with logic and wisdom, and, you know, and thought and foresight, and all those kinds of things. That's what I would think of, if I'm, you know, looking at what, what aMerrick Roseberg 17:52  right, but yeah, for sure.Ari Gronich 17:56  And yet, I don't really see that kind of introspection and foresight, and so forth, and the things that are being said right now. And not only that, but the doves seem to be getting a little bit of a of an attitude themselves, the people I would normally have thought of, as the compassionate, you know, empathetic kind of, you know, people so they seem seem to be, you know, getting their beaks nice and sharpened for for the pecking soMerrick Roseberg 18:26  well, it's because if you think first of all, you think about, think about dubs, I, I've always described them from like a, how they get upset perspective. It's like, they don't say anything, that they don't say anything, then they don't say anything. And then one day, it's just like, boom, and it explodes. And so I think we're seeing a level of frustration, that that we've never seen before just coming out. And, and I think, to your point, I think that what we're seeing what we're also seeing is, there's a lot of Eagle energy out there in that, which doesn't have a lot of detail behind it. But says, you know, this, there's a this is a bad situation and follow me, I will fix it. You know, I alone will fix what's going on. And then I think there's just a lot of faith from the owls that there's, there's, yeah, you know, we're not hearing a lot of detail, but it's there. It's behind the scenes, you know, there is information out there, I don't really need it, which is kind of interesting, because owls usually do need it. They usually want all the details. But I do think you're right. I think that a lot of the owls are just kind of saying I don't need all the detail. But I believe that if things are being said, I'm just going to trust it.Ari Gronich 19:40  Yeah, it just seems so unlike the personality type of, of, of an owl. And so I'm wondering if the owl has, has mutated, I'm using a gentle word, instead of procreated has mutated into a different personality type at this at this moment, or if, if we're just seeing the alternative or the, you know, the mirror image side of, of these all of these personalities.Merrick Roseberg 20:13  Yeah, I think, you know, I think what's happened is that when when you overuse your strengths, they become your weakness. And so when you dial up the owl too much, they actually don't become so detail oriented. They, they get to a place of frustration, and they say, you know what, I don't even need the detail anymore. I've just had it. And so when you dial it up that far, I think it's a problem. Also, there's been, you know, there's a, it become a fundamental mistrust in the data that's out there, that that idea that you can't trust the news, you can't trust the data. So you know what I'm not even going to trust, I'm going to forget about having to need the detail, I'm just going to trust the person who shares that there's a problem. And they've kind of let go of the need for the data because I can't trust the source of where it's coming from.Ari Gronich 21:02  Now we go on to that familiar territory of if we can't trust the media, and the things that are being told to us, where do we go for information? If we rely on information to be our deciding factor in what we actually do?Merrick Roseberg 21:23  I think we have to get back to a space where, where the data and the information that's being shared is truly accurate. And this is true from across the board on polit. from politicians, you know, the problem is that we don't really care as a nation if politicians aren't truthful. And that may sound like a very bold statement. But the reality is, look, we elected a president whose name was tricky dick. We connect elected another one whose name was slick, Willie, we didn't even care. And, you know, in our personal relationships, if, if I said to you, okay, here's this person, they're, they're dating somebody, and I measured it, I've been tracking everything that person says, 80% of the time, they are completely truthful, but 20% of the time, they don't tell the truth at all. You would say, I'm not gonna marry someone who lies 20% of the time. But if that were a politician, we'd go. That's pretty good. 80% of the time, they're honest.Unknown Speaker 22:22  All right,Merrick Roseberg 22:23  I'll take that I could live with 80%. And so I think in our personal relationships, we've we've come not to trust that we would say it this way, integrity, reliability, honesty is really important. But in our politicians, we we may not, we just come, we've come not to trust them. And we're like, yeah, they're honest, sometimes they're not honest other time, so just not even going to worry about it. And so, so that's the challenge is that we've gotten to a space where we don't necessarily trust them. And yet we're like, wow, I'll still vote for them.Ari Gronich 22:56  Yeah, it's really fascinating to me, because, to me, they're, they're, you know, there's always going to be the people who are spoofing the leaders, the people who are in charge, but now it's the leader spoofing themselves. And and so it seems like the world has kind of turned backwards on itself. And we're in what's that world called in Superman where everything is the oppositeUnknown Speaker 23:28  of Bizarro worldAri Gronich 23:30  or something? Seems like we've just entered into this Bizarro world and, and I'm curious is whether any of the personalities even make sense anymore? Or if you know, they've all ruffled their feathers? Yeah, youMerrick Roseberg 23:48  know, what happens is when we overuse our strengths, it really becomes an issue. It's there's, there's an expression expression, which I love, which is any virtue carried to an extreme can become a crime, you take something positive, and you dial up the energy, you put it in the red zone, and it's a problem. And and, you know, this is, this is what we've seen with a lot of politicians, you take Eagle, and you dial it up too far, and assertiveness becomes aggressive. Confidence becomes arrogance, or even narcissism. And you take the parrot and dial it up too much, and it's just big energy, but there's nothing behind it. There's no plans or strategies and so we we have an issue where a lot of politicians are dialing up their personalities so much, that they're now turning off a lot of people. And and, you know, it's a it's a problem when we can't believe the people that are leading our nation and we just don't believe in them. And we need to just get back to that space. And we get back to that space when they are no longer overusing their personalities. They're using them at a healthy level. And you can look at that person and say, You know what, I don't agree with them. But they're trying their best. You're not going to agree with everything. You know, maybe my party didn't Take the White House. But, you know, I don't trust distrust their integrity. I philosophically disagree. But that's okay, I'm not going to always have a person that I completely aligned with. But I believe they're going to keep us safe and do their best to, you know, to hold America's greatest interests at heart. And we just got to get back to that space.Ari Gronich 25:21  Right. So the question becomes, how do we, you know, how do we alter our personality as a nation to be less polarizing, and be more inclusive of other mindsets, meaning, you know, where we began as a melting pot, and it now seems as though you can't have any sort of nuanced thinking without being labeled on one side or another side. And for anybody who's in the middle, who, you know, I believe in these conservative principles, and I believe in these liberal principles, and I have this nuanced sense of reasoning. And nuance has left the building along with critical thinking and common sense. That's no longer common anymore.Merrick Roseberg 26:14  Yeah, I think that what we have to get back to, and this is true in our personal relationships, and it's true in politics, and it's true at work, that we have to replace judgment with acceptance, that what we're doing is we're judging people, there's a, you know, this concept that if you can let go of judgment, then it gets replaced with acceptance and valuing. And we do this to ourselves, we judge ourselves, and then we can't step into our own power, we judge other people, and then they can't be, you know, we see them in a light that they can't, we don't even think they're honest with us, because, well, they're not like me, they disagree with me, we have to get back to a space where we accept people for who they are. And and, and not question their intentions and their motives all the time.Ari Gronich 26:58  Awesome. Now, it's just a matter of how do we do that? what's the what's what's the tip, or the trick to to doing that?Merrick Roseberg 27:06  You know, I always talk about using the birds and using the styles is that when you have an eagle, and they're very direct, except that's them for who they are. That's who they're that's who they are. That's it's not, they're not doing something against you. And that's the big key here is recognizing that, that if an eagle is being abrasive, it's not really about you. You know, if a dove can be smothering that, yes, it's love, but it's like here food, take it, bring it home with you here. I'll put more on your plate. No, no, no, no, you take it. It's like oh, my gosh, drives me crazy, actually has nothing to do with you. It's that it's really all about them. It's love, but it's dialed up too much. If you have an owl, and they're just providing you with too much details, too much information, don't take it as Don't you trust me, don't you believe in we've been able to do that think for myself has nothing to do with you. And this is true for all four sauce is that that don't take things personally understand that the way they're talking actually has nothing to do with you. It's just them being who they are. And letting go of that judgment and recognize that it's really not about you, it's really about them.Ari Gronich 28:15  Nice. So you've done this kind of work with top, you know, fortune 100 companies. So give me kind of the inside wrap? Well, let's say you're in this meeting, you know, you and I are 10 people because I'm a Gemini, so I can be that. And so, you know, you have a meeting that you're directing, so to speak. So give me kind of the inside scoop, what would you say to the corporation, the heads of the corporation?Merrick Roseberg 28:54  So for me, when I talk with especially senior managers, it's an or any manager could be a supervisor, it's are you creating an environment in which you would thrive? Or are you creating an environment in which your people will thrive? In other words, imagine you have you're an you're an owl leader, and as an owl, is it likely that you create a very structured process driven standard operating procedures, a lot of tracking and documentation and, and measuring data? What do you think if you're an owl?Ari Gronich 29:26  Yeah, probably sure.Merrick Roseberg 29:27  But now you're managing an entire team of parrots. How do you how do the parents feel? If you're one of those parents? How does that feel?Ari Gronich 29:35  You're ruffling my feathers?Merrick Roseberg 29:38  Yeah, don't you trust me? Don't you believe in me? So what it's all about is are you creating an environment for your people? Are you really just creating an environment for you? And if I flip that around, to be fair to the owls, I'm a parent manager. And I create a very free flowing, here's your goals. Here's your here's what I'm looking for. Here's what I need it, go for it. I believe in you and a motivating and empowering. How does an owl feel in that culture?Ari Gronich 30:07  Not enough ruffled feathers?Merrick Roseberg 30:09  Yeah. In fact, like, what are you looking for? What What do you want me to do? How do you want me to do it? What do you how do you want me to hand this in? Can you give me a sense of your process in the details, I'm not even sure what I'm doing? Well, why is the parent doing that the intention is to motivate and empower, just like the our managers intention is to set you up for success. But leaders have to realize that if you want your people to be the highest versions of themselves, and to succeed in a way that they are engaged, and they love what they do, but they also produce a lot, you have to treat them the way they want to be treated. You can't impose yourself on them, you can't create culture for you, you have to create culture for them. And so becoming that highest version of ourselves is, is very powerful as a leader, because then it ripples out into impacting a lot of people so that each of my people can become the highest version of themselves. And let's face it, everybody, if I create an environment in which my people will thrive, there's a lot less drama that I have to deal with on a daily basis, because they feel comfortable. And so, you know, it's creating culture, but creating culture for them, not you.Ari Gronich 31:24  Interesting. So as the leader, who's like, let's say, I'm a, I'm an owl, and I need to have those metrics met. My team is a bunch of parrots and doves, not very organized, right? But I still obviously need that stuff in order for me to do my job. So how does the to match? How do you get somebody who's a parent to do our work? And if not, then how does that work? get done. So it's not you just being the one doing all the work all the time? Well,Merrick Roseberg 32:04  the first thing I would say is, you always want to match people up to the role. If you want people to feel comfortable, when you're working in your style, it feeds you, when you're working out of your style. It's exhausting. So first thing is I would say, can you create and structure these roles so that each person gets to display the behaviors they enjoy, and they feel most comfortable. And once you've done that, everybody's going to be a lot happier. Now, look, obviously, there's going to be aspects of everybody's job, which you go, Oh, I just hate doing that. The parrot who has to track and record everything they do for sales, you know, they're reporting their sales data and documenting and submitting it is the part they hate the most. And that's why they often have an account manager, who's an owl who does all of that for them. So they can get on the phone and go out at meetings and go to networking events. But I would often ask our managers, when they say me, I need all this information. I always look at them. I go, do you? Did? Do you need all information? Like, let's take a look at what you really use out of everything you're asking for? What data do you actually use that has meaning and value that value for you that you can act on? And a lot of times, they've just been tracking data, because that's just what they've always done. So I would say to that, how can you maybe meet halfway so that you're the parent doesn't have to do so much tracking so much documentation and find a middle ground? I had this with my my CFO in my own organization. as a as a CEO, I should know what's happening in the company, I need to understand my numbers, I need to understand the data. But I'm a parent, Eagle Eye, just too much of that. It's just exhausting for me. And when we started, we created these these monthly financial meetings to tap in and check in. Okay, what happened that month? She brought like two hours worth of data. And I'm like, okay, like, we need to pare this down. Because Yeah, I don't have two hours worth of attention span. So and now we literally got down to about a half hour's worth of data that is the most important critical fundamental data I need to know. And she feels that I need to know. Now, there's definitely data there where I go, do I need that? Yeah, not sure. But she thinks I need to have it. Okay, we'll keep it we met somewhere in the middle. And you might think, wait, you went from two hours to a half hour? Didn't that swing a lot? Yeah. But there was a tremendous amount of data like client by client data, which I didn't need, right. And so so that's what I'm talking about is you find a way to meet in the middle, that you can be yourself but you also do what needs to get done.Ari Gronich 34:35  How does that work with in the family dynamic?Merrick Roseberg 34:41  So same thing, right? I mean, you have you've got a lot of times parents who impose their personality on their, on their children. As an example. Remember watching this father, these kids, the kids where I live, my house is like in a court so there's like some put up a basketball net, so the kids can play basketball without really being the path of traffic. And, and I remember one day one of the kids, he's such a strong dove. I mean, he plays the flute, he's just he's like, I just want to just play my flute, I just I don't I love that I don't, I don't really like getting out there playing basketball, everybody, you know, I'd rather sit on the side and just talk to one other person, or get on a bike with one person, we ride around the neighborhood and just talk. And as fathers, the strong Eagle, and his father's, like, get in there fight for the ball. And you know, the problem with that is, the message that the Father is saying is you need to be more like an eagle if you want to be successful in this world. In other words, you need to be more like me. But the underlying message is who you are. It's not okay. And so parents are often set send bad messages to their children, because they impose their personality on their kids. spouses do the same thing. We husbands and wives and partners do the exact same thing. They're, they're talking to each other. And your owl spouse is saying, this is how you put dishes in the dishwasher, it could be something so small, but it becomes a source of frustration, because the parents just sticking stuff in there. And I was like, stop doing that it's wrong. And the parents like, it's a dishwasher, I put the dishes in the I was like, No, there's a way you put the dishes and you are you are violating the system. And so they oftentimes just like they're butting heads, because they're each imposing their personality on each other. And whether it's as a spouse, or as our children, we have to recognize you have to honor the people's personalities around you. Or else you're sending a bad message that you know who they are isn't okay. And that's, that's not really good for somebody's self esteem, whether that's a spouse or whether it's a child.Ari Gronich 36:52  This is true. So let's, let's put the personalities withUnknown Speaker 37:02  withAri Gronich 37:04  sorry, I'd lost my train of thought here for a second. We're going to put the response, okay, so the, the personalities are going to put them and attribute them to a set of conditions, right. So you need to clean the dishes, like you said, we're going to have the personality of each and how they do the dishes, right so that somebody can get an idea a dove is going to do the dishes this way a parrot is going to do the dishes that way. I just want to like I want to bring out I want to make this alive for the audience. I want them. Let'sMerrick Roseberg 37:52  take something like cooking something very simple, like cooking dinner, you have an owl who has a has a menu, they have a recipe, they follow the recipe, exactly how it's taught to me, they're literally taking out their quarter teaspoon measuring spoon and their half teaspoon measurements, and they're flattening it off. And when they make something to make the exact same thing the exact same way. It is perfect dubs, they tend to rotate because they're very stable, and they don't like change. They tend to rotate around a few standard dishes. They make them all the time. It's Tuesday. It's pasta night. It's Thursday, it's you know, this is what we're eating. And, and they probably aren't trying a lot of new foods. It's just look, I know the family likes this. And so I make it for them. Parents can never make the same recipe the same way twice. Because, hey, I threw a little of this and I buy by the way I had some of this in my house. I threw that in I didn't really measure it. I'm not sure I do like it awesome. You should make this again. Wish I could I only remember what I put in there were the quantities I'd have to figure it out. They're they're daring. They like to try new foods like what's the worst thing that could happen? eagles are like eating their dinner out of the microwave over the over the sink because plates while I'm not burning another plate, it's fast. It's quick, whatever, just make it for me, let's go. You know, it's like, they want it fast. They want it quick. So each style is just a very different way of of take any topic and we give handling themselves and how they react and how they they model behaviors during that particular activity. Whether it's driving or whether it's cooking. It's all personality plays out in everything. You know, it'sAri Gronich 39:42  it's interesting to me because as I listened to you, I would have thought maybe I'm more of an owl because I'm fairly analytical. I like research. I like to hear the numbers right. And then when you mentioned how an Now I would cook, I will never, you probably never will see me caught with a recipe book in my hands ever, let alone measuring specific things more like that, you know, parrot for the cooking and Eagle for the for the eating?Merrick Roseberg 40:21  Well, we all have a little of everything in us. But there's probably one or two, which are like home base for you that nobody's just one that most people have at least two that are really strong.Ari Gronich 40:32  I feel like I am a fairly balanced of all four. Just based on on the conversation that we've that we've had, right, I have that analytical side, but then, you know, I have this little bit of I'm a results oriented, let's get stuff done kind of personality. But I'm not organized enough to actually do that. So I got the parent side and the creative energy. And then you know, of course, I love people and I'm empathetic. So.Merrick Roseberg 41:03  So that's the key Look, my last book was called the chameleon for that reason. That's what it's all about. It's about being the chameleon. It's about being the person who could be flexible and adaptable, no matter what is happening. I mean, take somebody like Oprah, and other self made billionaire, her Eagle, running her Empire and the amount of company she owns. I mean, you know, you don't generate billions of dollars in revenue from being a talk show host. There's something about what she does, but how she manages them is very out. I've met two people who worked with her, they said the exact same thing. There's no detail too small for Oprah, that she has to know everything about everything. So well. You can see her charisma on stage that you get a car you get a car, just so much energy, big smile, and her empathy. She cries with her guests, she hurt, donate so much money and time to different charitable causes. And, and philanthropy. It's it's Eagle parrot dove out. That's what I refer to as the chameleon. Somebody can do all for and adapt anyoneAri Gronich 42:06  nice, well, then I'm going to need to become a billionaire really quickly. So we'll have to work on that next. So let me let me go to this, you know, compassionate communication is all about the needs of the individual people finding their needs. So what personalities go with what needsMerrick Roseberg 42:26  so so when I think of compassionate communication, what I think is, I'm going to communicate to you in a way that you want to be communicated to so we might think it's just lives in the world of the dove, because doves need you to soften their language, they want you to be very sensitive and, and not abrasive or abrupt in any way. Even just the tone of voice, they just want to know that you're here and you're there for them. Whereas What do Eagles need, I always say, Be brief, be brilliant, be gone. For an eagle doesn't need a long preamble doesn't need a lot of emotional and energetic communication. Just tell them what they need to know. And they're happy. For the owl. They feel comfortable when they have the data, they have an inner need to understand why and to get the information. And if you look, for example, impose change on an hour without giving them information, time to acclimate to it, the logic behind what you're doing. They're going to feel uncomfortable. parrots, they need energy, they need positivity. The more positive you are, the more excited they get, the more energized you are, the more enthusiastic they are. They need to feel your energy. So you can see how different they are, from details to energy to sincerity to bottom line. We can't just treat everybody the same. We have to think about who we're talking to.Unknown Speaker 43:53  Cool.Ari Gronich 43:55  So then what is the biggest challenge that you've seen with people and their personalities these days?Merrick Roseberg 44:06  I think it's that we impose our personality on others that we think we think if I need something, they need it. If something's important to me, it's important to them. You have an eagle and a dove couple. And the eagle is very direct and straightforward. You know, I had this moment I was sitting in an airport A while back and I was watching this couple and and he turned to this was the moment I tuned into their interaction because they were getting louder. And he turns around, he says, I don't understand how effect is an effect. And she looked at him and she's like, Well, it's because of the way you said the fact that matters. He's like, it doesn't matter how you say effect. It's still a fact. And she was like Oh, yes, it does. And you can see this didn't make sense to him that he was expecting just to be factual and data driven, probably Owl and Eagle. She's a more sensitive dove. And he's now offended. Her. And now what's happening is they're now arguing about how they're arguing, instead of arguing about what they're arguing about, and I think this is the great problem is that we communicate in our own style. we impose it on people. We think people need what we need want, what we want, like what we like. And we don't realize that, look, if you want to be a compassionate communicator, and we want to treat people well, we have to think about their needs, not our own. And I think that's the fundamental issue is not imposing our style on others.Unknown Speaker 45:33  Hmm.Ari Gronich 45:35  If only that were possible,Merrick Roseberg 45:38  it is possible, but it takes it takes focus and intention. Only.Ari Gronich 45:45  We could see some way of that happening more often than not, Hmm, what might be some techniques that people can play with in order to create an environment that allows that to happen more often.Merrick Roseberg 46:04  The first step is self awareness, you have to understand your own style. And I said this earlier, the most self aware people tend to be the happiest people, they tend to have the healthiest relationships, because they understand themselves, and they understand how they're treating other people. And so the first step is, you have to understand your own style, or else you're just destined to impose it on the people around you. So you've got to understand, am I an eagle, parrot dove, or an L? And am I using my style? Well, or am I overusing it. And now, it's the weakness or the shadow side of my personality. So first is understand yourself. The next step, now I have to understand who am I talking to? Am I talking to an eagle, a parent or a dove or an owl? And if I understand their style, can I be flexible and adaptable, and, and not impose my style on them, but rather, treat them the way they need to be treated? And so it's if I were just gonna give you a couple steps, it's, you got to know yourself, you've got to be able to read people quickly. And you have to be able to flex. I mean, imagine the world we live in if we did that. I could read your style fast, and I treat you how you want to be treated. How would relationships be that right?Ari Gronich 47:16  Yeah, you know, it goes against the golden rule, treat people the way you want to be treated? No, no, treat them the way that they would want to be treated.Merrick Roseberg 47:24  it you know, it's funny, I talk about that a lot. And I always say like, I'm not invalidating the golden rule. The Golden Rule holds true for virtues. In other words, I should treat you how you want to be treated in terms of kindness, fairness, respect, compassion, integrity, honesty, reliability, all of these great virtues. Yes, I should treat you how I want to be treated. But in terms of style, how I do that, how I communicate to you, that's when I need to treat you how you want to be treated, not how I want to be treated. So they're both true. I mean, underlying both of those is, in fact, respect.Ari Gronich 47:59  Yeah, I just want to invalidate the golden rule a little bit more. By saying that we do not want people to treat us the way we treat ourselves, being we treat ourselves more rapidly than anybody could possibly ever treat us, in my opinion, the self talk that we have. So we do not want to be treated the way that we treat ourselves, let alone the way we want to be treated. Because we don't treat ourselves very nicely.Merrick Roseberg 48:30  Yeah, I agree. We have a very loud internal critic. In fact, some styles have a louder internal critic, dubs and owls tend to have a louder internal critic than parrots and Eagles do. Yeah, I love this quote. It was when I when I was 20 years old, I really cared about what people thought about me. Then I was 40 years old. And I no longer cared about what people thought about me. But when I was 60 years old, I realized nobody was thinking about me at all. It's like, yeah, worried all that time for nothing. No one cares. We have a very loud internal critic. I think that is very true.Ari Gronich 49:10  Yes, we've got to do something about about that guy. You know, and it's funny because I would assume that most parents are you know, most comedians are parents. Right? I would assumeMerrick Roseberg 49:25  not not necessarily we think that hey, now you can name a lot of parrot comedians but take like a Jerry Seinfeld he was an owl or he's an owl he's very logical and meticulous he dissects the world George Carlin was an owl actually, a lot of comedians are surprisingly owls, because they take things apart, they notice things and then they expand on him. So it is interesting. We we think their parents, but a lot are actually I was it's definitely true. I mean, Robin Williams say, you know,Ari Gronich 49:51  right. And they and they don't have very much of that inner criticMerrick Roseberg 49:56  right. They they have a a More outward critic. In other words, the eagles and parrots when things go wrong, they don't necessarily equate what happened to them as a person. In other words, when something goes wrong for an owl or a dove, they say, well, it's like, I should have thought of this. I can't believe I didn't plan this, I can't believe I didn't think this through and they blame themselves. When a parent or an eagle, something goes wrong for them, they go, things happen. We had learning, what are you gonna do, I'll fix it next time. So they don't beat themselves up as much as the owls. And the dogs tend to do.Ari Gronich 50:42  Okay, so then I want to know this right now. Right now, right now, I want to know how to take the best parts of each personality, embed them in my spirit and soul, and personality, and dismiss all of those other behaviors from the other personalities. So how does one, start learning how to accentuate the positive, while the sensual hittingMerrick Roseberg 51:12  the negative? Well, remember, the negative isn't, so there's no inherently negative style, the negative is in the overuse, it's in the eagle becomes aggressive parrot becomes so optimistic, it's unrealistic, dove becomes passive and gets stepped on our will become so self critical, and of themselves and others that it's not a matter of, of taking on or getting rid of one of the styles, it's a matter of making sure you're using your style, at a healthy level. So if you're using so if there's two things that go on one, you use your style at a healthy level, that's powerful, because you're going to be the highest version of yourself. But you also be need to be able to tap into the other three. So you need to, because there will be moments, you need to be able to stand in your power and be assertive as an eagle when you need to be, you need to dial up energy and enthusiasm as a parent, when you need it. You need to dial up compassion and sincerity of the dub, you need to be able to focus on the details and make detailed data driven decisions when you need to. And And so, if you can't do one of those four, it's a blind spot, it's going to get you in trouble. But what I would say is, you don't have to make them a part of your personality, let's say I'm a strong dove, I don't need to become an eagle, I just need to make sure that when there's times I need to stand in my power and speak my voice and say my truth that I can do it, it's probably going to be uncomfortable, it's probably gonna take energy, because anytime you work out of your natural mode, it takes energy. But the key is to be able to be able to tap into all four of them, not to change yourself into all four of them.Ari Gronich 52:57  And I was hoping I could just stick a you know, thing on the back of my skull and matrix that matrix it all in my head.Merrick Roseberg 53:05  Just download it in. Exactly,Ari Gronich 53:08  you know, disappointed me Merrick here. I mean, I'm trying to trying to get this stuff inside my soul. Really, what I want for the audience is for them to get it into their soul. And so, you know, let's talk about how we use these personality types for the most optimal, you know, level. I mean, obviously, I'm known as the performance therapist, and I'm all about Performance and Results. Don't know what personality type that particular thing makes me but I'd say that's probably a combination, because I like to have fun while I'm, you know, producing results, and I'm compassionate about it. But you know, I'm a results guy. So let's talk about results. How do we optimize ourselves within these personality types? What techniques what ways would you like? Are there books to read and study? Are there things to do? What What would you suggest? Well,Merrick Roseberg 54:19  the first thing is, are you in a role in which you can be the highest version of yourself? In other words, have you ever seen a parent who's been in a job where they have to attract data and they if they are sitting at a desk for eight hours a day with very little human interaction? By the time they go home, they are absolutely exhausted. Or an owl who has to be out networking and schmoozing and having these you know, getting up on stage, I mean, they can they do it short, anybody can display any behavior, but it's exhausting. The first thing I would say is, are you in a role that allows you to be you? Because if you're not You're going to go home every single day exhausted. And I think that's, you know how many times that's the key how many people have had a job, where they were in a job, and they felt like they were just drowning. And then they move to a new job. And they were like, ah, I can breathe again, because they're being themself. So the first thing is, if you are in a role where you get to be you, you're not going to have to try to flex so much, you're not going to have to take on other behaviors, because you just get to be you, as a parrot. I get to go on stage, I get to talk to people at conferences, when we have conferences, you know, I get to be out there, I get to be in front of people, and I get to network and talk to people. I'm like living my highest version of myself. Now. When I first started doing this, I was booking flights and hotels and coordinating logistics, and oh, my god, there's so much detail that you don't see, it's like a concert, you don't realize everything that had to happen to make that two hour show take place. But what do I do? It was exhausting. So I hire somebody who's going to be the hour, who's going to allow me to do what I like. And they get to do what they like. Like, I'm not dumping all this logistical stuff on the on this person that I don't like I'm giving them the bad stuff. They like doing it. And so the first thing you have to do is, is make sure you're in a role that feeds you. As opposed to depletes you. I mean, have you ever had that in your career where you were like, you had a job, and you just went home every day and you're like, exhausted, and then you finally get to do what you love? And you feel like you can breathe now?Ari Gronich 56:38  Yeah, so I've been lucky enough that I've pretty much been my own boss since I was 18. However, I've been unlucky in the fact that I've been my own boss, since I was 18. And therefore, the things that I have no interest in doing, I've done. And yeah, I'll tell you, the things that that make me the most depleted are doing the things that I am absolutely not good at. Not in my brain, not in my focus, not in my, my wheelhouse. You know, I tell people, like you put a body in front of me, I could pretty much turn it into anything that it wants to be whether it's compassion, you know, competition, whatever I could, I could make the body heal and perform at peak levels that the body never thought it could do. But put me onto digital marketing, and I can't make anything perform for any reason whatsoever.Merrick Roseberg 57:49  And so what that means is you shouldn't be doing, right. Oh, right, find someone who's passionate about it, and is going to do it at a higher level. And I often ask my staff this question, in fact, we're coming up on the end of the year, I always do this with my staff, the at the end of every year, I meet with my team, and I say to each one of them. If there's one thing that I could take off your plate, that would make you happier, what is it Now keep in mind, it could be something they've been doing for 10 years, and they're very good at it. But they're just done. It's just not them anymore. It's not where they want to be putting their energy. And over the years, I've shuffled lots of roles and responsibilities, we've hired new people to create new roles. Because I want people to be fed by what they do. I mean, imagine the productivity. Imagine the joy you get from work, when you get to do what you like, and don't have to do the things you don't like, well, as a leader, I want to get those things off their plate. It's not serving them. It's not serving me and the company either. And so it's it's understanding what feeds you and what deeply to and then you start being the highest version of yourself, get all the rest of that stuff off your plate. Because when you get all that little stuff that drives you crazy off your plate, you have now way more time and energy to do more of what you do like and then work feels like pleasure. It doesn't feel like work at all.Ari Gronich 59:12  Yeah, absolutely. You know, I love getting on stage. I love speaking. I like seeing the looks on the faces of the audience when they get a haws and lightbulbs pop over their heads. I love that. And then I want to run into my hotel room and I want to relax for a little while. I don't want to take a break. And I want to rejuvenate and then I want to go back out. Right? It's that introverted extrovert side of me. I think that being a Gemini I'm just screwy with all personalities all at once jumbled inside my my head What do you think?Merrick Roseberg 59:55  We all have them all. You know my parrot and my Eagle are pretty strong, but there are Absolutely moments where I'm in alamode. And there are moments where I'm in dove mode, you know, we all have them. The key is to tap into the right one at the right time. Using the right style at the right moment, and knowing how to use the four styles. Well, and when the buttons Yeah, when that be great.Ari Gronich 1:00:18  Push the button owl button. I need Eagle right now Eagle Eagle has landed. Yep, push the book.Merrick Roseberg 1:00:26  You know, I we have people walk into my office. And we have we have these little guys here we have these desktop birds right where you walk in. And if I'm, if there are times where like, I, I just got back, I was on the road for four days. And I'm going to be on the road for the next three. And I've got eight hours to get a lot done. And I put the eagle out and I'm like, Alright, I'm in Eagle mode, meaning come into my office. I am not in parrot dove mode, come in schmooze talk, see what's happening. You've got to come in, tell me what you need to tell me. And and head on out because I've got a lot to do in a short window. And so we use the birds as kind of a communication tool to say, hey, I want to talk to you. I want to answer your questions. But be direct, be succinct, because I got a lot to do right now. And so they become a to a tool that people can use picture in relationships, where I'm a parrot, my wife is an owl. And she asked me a question and I say, oh, all you do is this. And she looks at me and she goes, owl. And I'm like, okay, so let me walk you through it. First, you need to do this, this and this. Now as you go through it a few things you want to think about? It becomes a communication tool to be able to use the birds in a way that gives you a language that is non judgmental. There's that was that interaction wasn't You're such a parrot. And how would you Why would you talk to me like that? It's like, and then I'll remember my needs. Here's what I need. I need you to be more of an owl right now. I'm sure anybody can display that any behavior. So it becomes a language that we have to use?Ari Gronich 1:02:01  Should there be practice groups for this?Merrick Roseberg 1:02:04  I you know, I think we have practice groups. They're all around us. I think we we have co workers where they're all different styles, our family members are all different styles. There, we are experiencing it every single day. Every person you interact with is a person to practice it with.Ari Gronich 1:02:21  So we should call this season, the holiday practice group season. Because we got Thanksgiving, and Halloween and Christmas and Hanukkah and all these different holidays right now that people are getting an opportunity to practice their personalities with their family, the biggest triggers to those personalities. So any suggestions during this time of year for families? What you know, what are some things that they can actually do to shift their family dynamics maybe and have a, you know, more peaceful holiday season with each other?Merrick Roseberg 1:03:05  Yeah, I think one is thought process. One is behavior. You know, from a thought process perspective, it's recognizing that they are just being who they are, that remove the judgment. So on a thanks, Thanksgiving, when my wife is, is coordinating things, and I want to be helpful. And she says to me, I just need you to set the table. And then I go and I set the dining room table. And then I walk by the dining room table a little while later. And I realize I have a magic dining room table. That resets itself, because clearly, I did not set it properly. Now, I could get very offended by that. But actually I say she's an owl. She has a specific way. It's fine. Yeah, I bought over the years, I have learned by the way. Now I say, why don't you set one of the place settings, and I'll replicate it. See, I've had learning. But But early on, I would have got I was getting frustrated like well, why are you asking me if you're just going to redo it anyway. And it became conflict. Now it's just tease the owl, she has a specific way. I'm not offended by that. So so if you understand who someone is, the judgment goes away the conflict and drama goes away. The second is let people do what they're good at. You know, here, why don't you organize where everybody is going to sit? This is your the dove, you really care about making sure

Get Your FREE COPY of  my book, 3 Signs of A Toxic Relationship, Now...   www.marissafayecohen.com/signs-of-a-toxic-relationship   Can you heal from abuse?  What do I do after leaving my narcissist? What does a healthy relationship look like? These concerns cross the minds of over 20 people every minute; over 28,800 people every day.  And the sad fact is, we still don’t talk about it enough.  Healing from Emotional Abuse isn’t a bandaid situation.  But it doesn’t have to take years either. The lives of millions of other survivors around the worlds have been impacted by their narcissist.  Yours doesn’t have to.  To show you how to live a free, confident and peaceful life, your host and Founder of the Healing From Emotional Abuse Philosophy, Marissa F. Cohen.   Marissa: Hi, I'm just waiting for my partner in crime Orsika to jump on here, so that we can start talking about some very important topics today. One second to try and find her. So, one of the things that Hello,    Orsika: Hello,    Marissa: How are you today?    Orsika: I am great. How are you today?    Marissa: I'm good that today. I think our topic is did you lose me, I think.    Orsika: Nope, I have you now.    Marissa: Okay, cool. Awesome. So, do you want to introduce yourself, and then we'll talk about the topics we're going to talk about today.    Orsika: I think that's a great idea. So my name is Orsika Julia. And I am the owner of out of the quicksand, which is specifically designed, it's my business specifically designed for parents who have overcome domestic violence and want to just live a better life for life of healing and forgiveness. And, you know, just get out of your quicksand because living in survival mode, let's be honest, sucks. As a parent, fresh out of, you know, when you're fresh out of domestic violence as a parent, you kind of tend to forget about yourself care, because you're wanting to care for your family. So I come and guide you on how to really heal your family through healing yourself. So that's what I do.    Marissa: Awesome. And I'm Marissa, I'm a healing coach and a bestselling author. I work with survivors of domestic violence and sexual assault as well, to help them on their healing path using my three point philosophy called the healing from emotional abuse philosophy. And so welcome. And today, oh, Orsika, and I want to talk about this, this TikTok trend, the National rape day trend that's being talked about a lot. And so do you want to start, or should you    Orsika: You get to start with your sister? And I'll just take it right after you? Yeah, it's so because I don't TikTok.    Marissa: So I actually barely TikTok and people kept sending it to me, which is the only way I found out about it.    Orsika: Awesome. I'm glad they did.    Marissa: I know me too. So if you're not familiar, the TikTok trend was it says created by six men that were saying that April 24 is National rape day and then that sexual assault and rape is legal on April 24, and encouraging people specifically encouraging men to rape as many women as they can this coming Saturday on April 24. Now, that caused a frenzy backfire from survivors and women all over the world, making videos warning their friends, warning people around them what's happening and to be aware of Saturday Night, because this group of people was basically giving advice on how to successfully sexually assault as many women as possible. According to the USA Today, they haven't actually found any evidence at that original video exists. And I don't know, but I do know that the frenzy it's caused has created a lot of fear in the survivor community and truly in the in the community of women online. So which do you have any, any insight or any quick thoughts about that?    Orsika: Yeah, thoughts? I think that's totally disgusting. Like, what is our world coming to Right? Like? Why? Let me back up for the men to have these thoughts that this is okay. Really, really hurts me for their soul and for their life? Like, what? upstanding gentlemen which obviously, they aren't. Yeah, but what human Okay, like, let's not even give them all those condolences and caveats, but what human who is of sound, mind and spirit? think that this is okay. So they're very, very broken. And we have to understand that like, people who hurt people come from a very broken place. I'm not saying it's okay by any means. Because I was raped by my husband, ex now but by the husband. And it's nowhere near okay, but to understand that these people are very, very hurt, you know, and they're just going to continue hurting. And the more fire or more coals that we put on the fire, the more hurt people are going to hurt people and that's just not okay. That's just not okay.    Marissa: Yeah, I agree. I mean, I definitely am fundamentally against people banding together to rape a collection of people, I think that's just a disgusting thought. And it's horrible. You're a better person than I am. Because for me, I don't even care about their condolences. I'm just like, are there anything I state? Right? I don't care about their mental state, like if you have the wherewithal to plot together to, to, to hurt as many people as possible, like, my hope is that they're trying to find actively trying to find the people that started this and all of the people that continue to, to enforce this idea, and throw them all in jail. I mean, I would love to see them all behind bars for at least a week. And the reason that I stopped at a week is because less than 2% of convicted rapists actually spent one day in jail, less than 2%. And so having people that are potentially attempted rapists who are perpetuating this awful rumor or, you know, event should all be    Orsika: Hate crime, really hate crime?    Marissa: Absolutely. They should all be locked up.    Orsika: I guess my question for them is do you have a mother? We all do? And how would you feel if somebody raped your mother? As she was taking her dog for a walk? How would you feel if this was your little sister? Like? Just that? Okay. It's just an I understand, I truly do that hurt people hurt people, right? Like I said, but how would you feel? How would you feel? If it was your mother? How would you feel if it was your baby sister? Or heck better yet? Dare I say? How would you feel if it was your daughter? How would you feel if somebody came up to your daughter who was going on a walk? Just casual walk, and she got gang raped?    Marissa: I mean, the thought of that gave me chills, and I don't even want to explore that thought, you know, having gone through it myself, and you haven't gone through it yourself. You know, I understand the toll that it takes on the victim on the survivor. And the very thought of that, like makes me itch.    Orsika: Yeah, especially when you think of like, the 12 year old daughter, the 13 year old daughter. So if you happen to be watching our happy little video, and you think that this is okay, you have a relative who is a female? Is it okay? Think about it. Like it's stupid. And it's asinine.    Marissa: I agree. It's never okay. It's never ever. And as, as for any survivor listening, if this did happen to you know that it wasn't your fault, and there was nothing that you could have done in that moment that you didn't do to protect yourself. So let's, I could talk about how much I hate assault. But let's move to ways for survivors are ways for people to keep themselves safe, in case, April 24, is what they're saying it's going to be a case it is basically people breaking out and assaulting as many people as possible, what are some ways that people can keep themselves safe in any scenario?    Orsika: Well, for one living in fear is not an option, right? That's not going to keep you safe. That's just going to keep you close to it. And that's not okay, either. So, I mean, definitely don't just hide in a corner unless, unless you're raped, like, let's say, you've been through it, and it's been recent, then please stay inside and hide in a corner. Like that's okay. Like, it's totally okay. But more importantly, just be aware of your surroundings and go with people. So go out by yourself, ladies, like, just use common sense, don't you think Marissa like, don't go out by yourself. If you can avoid staying in the dark, you know, evil lurks in the dark corners, right? And just stay in, if you if you must be out at night, you know, let's say you want to go clubbing or you're at a friend's birthday party or whatever, then just be smart and go in groups. And that means travel in the car and groups. You know, they're unfortunately, you know, the evil that is out there is smart, right? And you think, Oh, I went to my car and a group and we all Park together but you don't. And I'm not saying this to put fear in you, but you don't know what's in the car. So travel in packs,    Marissa: Traveling packs with people you trust a minute? Yeah. Because Yeah, 85 I'm sorry. 90% of sexual assaults take place by somebody who's an acquaintance of the survivor. And I think 85% of those are somebody that's in an intimate relationship. And so not only traveling paths, which is so important, and be very aware of your surroundings, but only go out with people that you trust, trust. You know, just keep yourself safe. You know, if you put a drink down, don't pick it back up. There are over 55 different drugs and things people can put in drinks, that will knock you out for at least eight hours, including but not limited to vising. If you squirt a couple drops of vising, the eye drops into somebody's drink, they're going to be in the bathroom all night. If you empty a whole bottle, which is like what that big, right that right, take two seconds to empty, that thing knocks you out for eight straight hours. So put it    Orsika: And this doesn't let me piggyback off of that, too. This isn't just men raping women. Right? Like, you can't have a woman raping a woman. And you can't have a man raping a man. So this isn't just going out and rape all the women, you know, this is like, just be cognizant traveling packs that you trust and be aware of your surroundings. Always, not just Saturday, like always.    Marissa: Absolutely. Another trend that I saw, I think a couple years ago, was people drugging men, so that they could take the you know, their, their partner, the female they were with away with no fight. So even if you're a man, you know, put your drink down, do not pick it back up. If it's really that much of an issue, because the drink was expensive. Then text. Hold on Twitter, text me and I'll Venmo you like, I'll buy another drink? Because I'd rather you be safe than and be out $12 then, you know, then have this happen more to people who don't deserve it? You know? Right? Right. Right, anybody deserves it.    Orsika: Just putting that out there.    Marissa: Nobody deserves to get paid just for choice in words. What other ways? Can people keep themselves safe? Aside from traveling in packs? And you know, not picking their drinks, surrounding themselves by just trying to get in?    Orsika: I mean, don't say again, don't stay in from fear, but stay in, you know,    Marissa: Make a choice to stay in a choice?    Orsika: Absolutely, like have your gathering and somebody's apartment or house or, you know, keep it safe. I mean, that's, it's more fun that way anyway, because you don't have to deal with the idiots in the world.    Marissa: Right? Or if you are going out or doing something during the day or at night, what about sharing your location with somebody or sharing your somebody, you know, just in case, I always have my location shared with three people. It's always my mom, and then two people who are either in the vicinity or who I have spoken to and told them where I'm going that way. If something were to God forbid, happen, knock on wood. People know where I am.    Orsika: Yeah, and that's something so this is the generational difference, right? Like versus just a tinge younger than I am just a little bit. She's my, she's my younger sister, but from another mister. But like, I don't even think about that. Right. And your generation and younger definitely thinks about that. And I think it's great. So I have my, my son, he's, you know, I can find him wherever he goes, right? Because I have that turned on for him. But I don't really go anywhere that people don't know where I am. But I think that's an amazing recommendation, like, have your location device on. Right. That way. If you are in trouble, then the authority can find you faster as well.    Marissa: Absolutely. There's an interesting story that I Well, a person who came to the safe house I was working out a couple years ago, the only reason she knew where she was when she woke up after a night of being drugged and sexually assaulted was because she called an Uber to her location, and then was able to look back at the location that she called Uber from, and that's how they found the perpetrator. And if she didn't have her location on that wouldn't have been an option. Right?    Orsika: And I love that that is an option. And I understand why people don't want to have their location and all the time. Like I get that you want your private life to be private, but it could save your life. So be smart. Get over your pride and turn location on.    Marissa: Absolutely. Can you think of anything else? Because I'm kind of I got my second vaccine today. I have my microchip in. I'm just kidding. But yeah, no, so I'm like, slightly groggy. But do you have any other ideas or tips and tricks that people could use?    Orsika: Techniques I mean, really common sense. Take a pocket knife are allowed to take pocket knives into places you know, just a little bit each pocket knife. They're what 15 bucks or so.    Marissa: Something like that. I think as long as it's smaller than your palm at least scans Illinois and New Jersey. You can legally have it with you.    Orsika: Well, Michigan laws are totally different    Marissa: In New Jersey or Illinois, but Pepper Spray pepper spray. Sure. I mean, you got 711 for like, Yeah, absolutely.    Orsika: And this, we're not saying this folk to put fear into your brain or into your soul or anything like that we're saying this just so you use your common sense. And sometimes we forget things like, I wouldn't have remembered to turn off turn on my location, because again, I really don't go out, I definitely don't go clubbing. And when I do go out, it's, you know, to visit Marissa. So, in her nice, comfortable place. I mean, I have a firm to take care of, I don't really have the luxury of I don't give myself the luxury of going out and quote unquote, right. So, again, we're not saying this to diminish your intelligence, we're saying this to keep you protected, and maybe give your ideas that are not in the foreground of your of your mind, right. And if you have any other suggestions or thoughts of ways people can keep each other safe and themselves safe. definitely leave it in the comments we would love to hear. Because I'm sure that we didn't cover everything right. Marissa    Marissa: Yeah, definitely.    Orsika: Yeah. And I'm sure people will come up with amazing things, right, a skateboard and beat the crap out of somebody with a skateboard or longboard, I guess it's like, look around, be aware of your surroundings, and see what you can use to protect yourself if the need is there. I mean, if you're drinking a drink, and you need to whack somebody upside the head with the beer bottle, then by all means it's better than getting raped or sexually assaulted.    Marissa: Absolutely. And be friendly with your server or bartender. And I don't mean like, tip them generously. You know, I mean, like, you know, let them know that you're, you're nervous, or if you need help, like they are trained generally, to take care of situations like that, or have protocols in place to take care of something like that. Sure. You can easily get you out, they can get you separated from somebody who you're afraid of. If you're starting to not feel, well get to a safe place with a safe person. Now it's all coming, you know,    Orsika: Ask for help. It's okay to ask for help.    Marissa: People are generally like, Oh, my gosh, programmed to want to help you, right? We all want to help each other in a way. Except people who are scumbag rapists, you know, I mean, they don't want to help you.    Orsika: They want to help themselves.    Marissa: Exactly. And it's not about sexual urge, either. It's about power and control. So, like Orsika said, being aware of your surroundings, knowing who's around you knowing escape routes, you know, having things in place like a longboard or pepper spray or mace, mace, whatever, whatever, knife, whatever makes you feel safe. I used to keep a foghorn in my purse, and a rape whistle. I'm not kidding. I had a friend who bought them for me because I had to cross the street to get home, like cross the highway to get home from work. And so I used to keep that in my bag. And I only ever had to pull the foghorn out once thank goodness   Orsika: Thank goodness it was there. Because if not, then, you know, who knows?    Marissa: Exactly. So, like Orsika said, if you have any other suggestions, or thoughts or questions or comments, feel free to leave them in the comment box. We will be, you know, around all week, monitoring the video and monitoring the advice you guys give and just keep each other safe. You know?    Orsika: Yeah. And if you have any, go ahead, I'm sorry Marissa    Marissa: As you say, it really sucks that this is even like a topic of conversation we have to have,    Orsika: It really does. And I was going to say if you all have any need for just the support, you know, if you've been through sexual assault, or rape or domestic violence that Marissa and I, that's what we do. That's our specialty. That's our gift and our passion. So, you know, aside from this video, if you are a domestic violence survivor or survivor of sexual assaulters, you know, survivor of rape, then please reach out to us whichever one you know, either one of us will be more than happy to just hold your hand and love on you.    Marissa: Absolutely. And I have an idea that I have not run by Orsika yet but    Orsika: It's a perfect idea. I'd love it.   Marissa: Okay, so I think what we're going to do, I'm speaking for you on Saturday, it's going to be probably a very triggering day or an emotional day for a lot of people. So we will have a zoom, maybe going all day, you know, we'll have a Zoom Room available. And if anybody feels nervous or scared or triggered or wants to talk or just you know, needs a pep talk, want some advice for coping skills. Message one of us and we'll send you the link to the zoom video. That will be all day on Saturday. We're here for you. And we're happy to help.    Orsika: I'll take the morning shift, shift. Marissa has the right one because you know I'm old. No kidding.    Marissa: Perfect. I'll do the midnight shift. Perfect. Yeah. Do you have anything going on that you want to talk about anything to promote your new programs.   Orsika: I do, but I'm not going to do that right now just to not take away from I don't want my gosh, these words right who got the shot? We can talk about those next week. I just personally, I just feel like this is the time to really focus on what potentially has been put out there for Saturday. I just think it's so important that I don't want to diminish that I want to be able to give my full support to that and we'll talk about what I have to offer next week.    Marissa: Sounds good and then I'll do the same.    Orsika: Well, thanks, friend.    Marissa: Thank you Have a great rest of your night and if anybody needs anything message one of us okay,    Orsika: Absolutely. Have a good night. All fine.     If you enjoyed this podcast, you have to check out www.MarissaFayeCohen.com/Private-Coaching. Marissa would love to develop a made-for-you healing plan to heal from emotional abuse. She does all the work, and you just show up. Stop feeling stuck, alone, and hurt, and live a free, confident, and peaceful life.  Don’t forget to subscribe to the Healing From Emotional Abuse podcast, and follow us on Facebook at www.facebook.com/marissafcohen, and instagram @Marissa.Faye.Cohen. We’d love to see you there!   narcissist, narcissism, overcoming narcissism, toxic relationship, toxic people, ways to heal, how to heal from emotional abuse, living with a narcissist, good friends, healthy relationship, intimate partner violence, intimate partner relationship, healthy relationships, self love, confidence, self esteem, low self esteem, self esteem activities, confidence exercises, breaking through the silence, what does emotional abuse do to you, what does it mean to be narcissistic, what being with a narcissist does to you, what emotional abuse does to you, learning how to trust myself again, i trust myself, i only trust myself, in myself i trust, toxic relationship, toxic partner, toxic person, toxic people, trust myself, Can you heal from abuse, narcissistic relationships, What do I do after leaving my narcissist, What does a healthy relationship look like, narcissistic women in relationships, narcissistic personality disorder in relationships, covert narcissism in relationships, being in a relationship with a narcissist, empath narcissist relationship, narcissist in love relationships, vulnerable narcissist relationship, narcissist mind games, narcissistic mind games example, mind games narcissists play, mind games of a narcissist, covert narcissist mind games, mind games played by narcissists, mind games of narcissist, narcissist and mind games, sexual harassment, narcissist playing mind games, mind games narcissist, narcissists and relationships, toxic relationship, toxic partner, toxic person, toxic people, Reclaim Your Life, Healing Steps, You’re not alone, I’m a survivor, physical abuse, emotional abuse, verbal abuse, mental abuse, financial abuse, sexual abuse, sexual assault, spiritual abuse, consent, what is consent, national rape day, tik tok trend, trending tiktok, april 24, april 24, 2021, april 24 national day, 

Professor Aldred talks to Harriet Larrington-Spencer, a researcher at Healthy Active Cities at the University of Salford. Harriet, or Harrie, developed an interest in active travel after experiencing cycling in Copenhagen and the Netherlands, and after losing the use of her left arm following a collision with a driver. Harrie discovered that while a tricycle was far easier for her to use, the physical barriers and chicanes in place on many of Britain's cycleways make the use of three wheels challenging. Harrie talks about the challenges such infrastructure poses for non-standard cycle users, about other barriers to wider uptake, such as cost, what inclusive active travel would look like, and what research she would conduct, if money were no object. And, of course, about cycling with her dog, Frida. Healthy Active Cities is a research group bringing together researchers from the University of Salford, as well as practitioners and policymakers to discuss issues in sustainable transport. You can find out more about their work here: https://blogs.salford.ac.uk/healthyactivecities/TRANSCRIPT00:00Hi and welcome back to the Active Travel Podcast, brought to you by the Active Travel Academy, and to season two. We had a little break over Autumn, and we've all been busy working on lots of different projects, but we're delighted to finally bring you the second episode – and we hope to have more in the weeks to come. But without further ado, let's hand over to Professor Rachel Aldred, Active Travel Academy founder, and our guest.So I'm really happy to be here for an episode of the active travel podcast with Harriet Larrington-Spencer, who is a researcher at Healthy Active Cities at the University of Salford. So hi, Harrie, good to have you here. 00:11Hi, Rachel, thank you for having me.00:14Great. So one of the things I wanted to start with is really about how you got into this how you got into researching active travel, because one of the great things about active travel is that it's people from a whole range of different backgrounds in the field in terms of disciplinary backgrounds. So can you tell me how you got into it?00:32Yeah, it's so my academic background is originally not active travel, I come from a geography background. So my bachelor's is in geography. And then I moved to the Netherlands to do my master's, which was in water management and irrigation. So very different from active travel. And whilst I was there, and I did my Erasmus as part of my masters in Copenhagen, just I went from kind of cycling for, for recreation and, and a bit of sport to cycling every day, when you arrive at university as an international student in the Netherlands, they tell you no bike, no life. So you kind of the first thing, the first thing they give you is a list of all the secondhand places to buy a bike. And then from that moment, cycling just became my natural form of transportation. And when I saw then I started my PhD. Back in the UK, in Manchester, I was cycling everyday for transportation, and I got hit by a car. And then I had to start changing the type of cycling. So whilst I was cycling for transportation, I was also doing cycling for sport. But I had to kind of start working out how to cycle for transportation in a way that I could do, because the the car damaged my left arm, so it doesn't work, and my hand doesn't work anymore. So it became How could I use a two wheel bike. So I started doing doing that. And even on two wheels, I found quite a lot of barriers to cycling, and doing my everyday journeys that I just hadn't considered before. And then more recently, to make it a lot easier for myself, I have a trike, and so I can do my shopping and carry my dog more easily. And the barriers that were difficult to negotiate on a on a bike have become impossible to negotiate on a trike. And so it started from there really, and and thinking about active travelling that everybody has a has a right basically, it's kind of the right to the city is that everyone should be able to move actively around their local neighbourhood, and how to enable that. 02:43Wow,Wow, thank you now I am going to pick up on different bits of that. But just to go back to the Netherlands experience. So when you went to the Netherlands, had you been cycling much before in this country? Were you completely new to it?02:55No, so I wasn't completely new I grew up in the middle of in the kind of the middle of nowhere in the countryside. So to get to see friends it was always cycling. But also, it was cycling through farmland and fields and or very small country lanes. And it was never really it wasn't an everyday thing. So to actually get anywhere, we had no bus service, you had to learn to drive if you wanted to get anywhere independently and before kind of 17,18 cycling offered that but it wasn't particularly viable to get very far. 03:39Yeah, I know I that sounds kind of familiar. And when you came back to Manchester after the or you came to Manchester after the Netherlands, how was it suddenly cycling in Manchester after having cycled in the Netherlands?03:50It's just a complete world away. It's I think even if you remove the infrastructure from the UK from kind of that equation, the infrastructure makes a difference. But it's also that I think everyone in the Netherlands who drives is also a cyclist. So it's, it's Yeah, the infrastructure is not there. And then also cyclists are not in the minds of drivers, either. So when I got hit by a car it was because the driver overtook me and turned left because they didn't even and it was across the segregated cycle lane as well. So it's that they didn't even think that they had to kind of consider that there might be a cyclist on the cycle lane and yeah, completely different.04:39Yeah, it just highlights the need for the infrastructure but also the need for the cultural change behaviour change as well at the same time. And then you were talking about how you cycling as a disabled cyclist using a two wheeler and then using a trike was was different. Could you say a little bit more about that and about some of the barriers that you experienced there.05:00With, with two wheels, I can I can do it and I can I can cycle in, it's fine. But moving the handlebars is quite difficult picking up my bike is difficult. So the probably the biggest barrier is if you are using shared paths and then there's barriers on the shared path. So you've got, A frames are the worst, but there's also chicanes. So I think most of you probably know what chicanes are, but kind of small fences to slow you down. So it just started with the two wheels, you kind of you can negotiate it, but it takes time and it takes energy and I can't really lift my bike and it causes pain when I do it. And then when you get to three wheels, because the cycle is longer and it's wider, you literally cannot like you can't get it past A frames, and sometimes you can get it past chicanes but to do that, my husband has to kind of pick up the trike and negotiate it around. I can't do that at all by myself. So it just it means that that certain cycle, cycling routes are completely off limits to me. And they're often the cycle routes that are the nicest ones, because they're completely away from cars and roads.06:13And why why do you think this kind of this kind of thing exists? Why given that, you know, potentially it's not in line with equality legislation?06:21So the kind of technical reason that they're there is to prevent motorcycles and and anti-social behaviour on cycle routes. Often, it's part of the planning permission to get the route and the police have to if a route is going to be off road, then the police have to agree to it as well. And the police's kind of standard response is an A frame. And some residents also want A frames as well, because there's, I think there's often a fear of this kind of antisocial behaviour from motorcycles, not necessarily that it's going to happen. So, yeah, and it's and now, kind of, the more I get into it, the more I struggle, because I think kind of maybe a few years ago, it was that councils wouldn't know about the Equality Act and kind of the what, what their responsibilities are to disabled cyclists. But more and more, I'm seeing councils saying things like, Oh, we've looked at LTN 1/20 [Local Transport Note 1/20 – cycle infrastructure design guidance], which very specifically says, Don't use A frames, don't use chicanes, and the council's will recognise that, that they should not be using those and they shouldn't be implementing those. And that by implementing those, they're excluding disabled cyclists. But at the same time, they kind of say, we're doing it anyway. And we've got no other way to manage motorcyclists. So this is what we'll do.07:53Yeah, so that's, they'll just probably pick up on the LTN 1/20, the new cycle infrastructure design guidance. So that's seen some improvements, but obviously, isn't necessarily feeding through into practice. And does it highlight the extent to which things need to be aligned for things to change? If the police, you know, you don't necessarily just need transport just use to change in transport planning, but also the police and so on as well.08:15Yeah, it definitely needs to be a much more joined up approach. And even now, in in Stockport, we're seeing that there are routes that aren't accessible. So if you look at LTN 1/20, they say that the ideal route be at least spaced at 1.5 metres. And so in Stockport, they're taking cycle routes and walking routes that have this spacing already. And they're putting chicanes on them. And I've just saw a proposal yesterday where they're asking for an A frame barrier. So yeah, there's there needs to be working with police and with residents and with disabled people, as well. But to me, it shouldn't be the kind of the equality of access should be the centre point. And it's what should we be do? What can we do to achieve that rather, than kind of the restricting of motorcycles being being the point where where they start design?09:11Yeah, yeah. So it's kind of trying to restrict a minority of problematic users of one mode, that's maybe not even actually the case. It's something that's feared rather than trying to ensure inclusive access for for walking cycling, which is meant to be something that's being encouraged.09:25Yeah, exactly. And the more people you have using a route legitimately, the less attractive it will be to anyone on a motorcycle if, if you think that you're going to access that route, because it's kind of an empty space that you can whisper on your bike. It's much less attractive. If it's full of everybody on trikes bikes with push chairs walking, it's, it's very different.09:50Great, and that sort of brings up another topic, which is around inclusivity of active travel. So could you maybe sort of tell us a little bit about what active travel, how inclusive active travel is or what what needs to change.10:04I think active travel is getting much more inclusive, I see a lot of people who are non-disabled, recognising the barriers that disabled people have to active travel, I think at kind of a grassroots level, especially, it's happening more with sport than with active travel is that is kind of getting disabled people more involved, recognising the barriers that disabled people have. I think in active travel, it would really help if design centred disabled people, because anything designed for disabled people is is going to be good for everybody. So with cycling, there's so there is a lot of barriers for disabled people, anyone who wants to use a non standard cycle, there's not only the infrastructural barriers, and you, you know they're there. So it's kind of like why would you invest in something if the routes that you want to go on with your family or your friends, you can't get on. And then on top of that, you have the you have the cost of the equipment. So a non standard cycle is 1000s and 1000s of pounds. And then on top of that you have the insurance of it, you have to have the secure storage to meet the insurance requirements. And then you also need to know that when you cycle somewhere there will be a secure place to lock your site as well. So I found with my trike, I can't, I can't even use the Sheffield stand without taking up multiple spaces on the Sheffield stands. And I don't want to block other people from being able to be able to park their cycles. So there's kind of there's all these factors that have to be accounted for. And it's the same with with walking, with using a wheelchair that so much of the urban environment isn't isn't suitable for just independently using your wheelchair to get to your to your local area, whether there's no pavement drops, if there's pavement parking, parks that don't have accessible entrances to them. It's it when and when you start noticing it and I think this has happened a lot with non-disabled people as well when disabled people who who are working in active travel and are advocates within it have started pointing it out is that once you start seeing it, you can't stop seeing it and and it's just it defies belief really, that you would have a park that not everybody can connect thiswill be because of barriers at the gates because of steps.12:33Yes. So very similar things to cycle paths is that you have kind of the chicane entrances into the park, which make it quite difficult, especially if you're on something more recumbent. If you're on a hand cycle, for example. So you're lower down, and you'll have a longer base. Yeah, even wheelchairs, I think sometimes struggled to go through the these spaces unless it's a wide open gate.13:00And do you think that's starting to change in planning at all? I mean, if advocates are noticing it are planners noticing it, are things getting better.13:07I think that things are changing. So LTN 1/20 was an a massive win for inclusive cycling and that you can you read through that document and you see the advocacy work of Wheels for Wellbeing in there, and how powerfully and positively they've impacted the world of inclusive cycling, in terms of planning from councils. In Greater Manchester, I feel like there's much more awareness of it, but there's a real struggle to start making those changes for whatever reason. And I, I do think there needs to be a bit of bravery that I can understand that some of these are quite big changes. To say we're not going to restrict access is a big change to how kind of urban planning has been done. But I've also seen some really positive things. So Manchester highways has recently created an access group but that's because it's that has a lot of disabled people with a lot of different kind of experiences and skills. And they are hopefully going to listen to those views when when they're implementing active travel projects. But yeah, it's kind of a time will tell.14:23You were mentioning about Manchester highways and maybe it's time to say something about the Greater Manchester context because Greater Manchester is I think it's something like 2.7 million people across the urban area. So yeah, large urban area, metropolitan area, different authorities and so on different levels of planning. So how does that work in terms of active travel? How is it structured and you know, is it different authorities in charge of different bits and so on?14:50Yeah, so different authorities will be in charge of their own area. I think we then have the Bee networks for for walking and cycling with Chris Boardman who is the walking and cycling Commissioner. So this is trying to join those up a bit and have a more integrated approach to walking and cycling. It's a struggle because for different councils have different approaches and different histories, I mean, you can definitely see in Salford at the moment they've, they're really progressing with their walking and cycling, working to make things much more inclusive. So they've on one of the big walking and cycling trails, they've just been removing barriers and replacing them with bollards that are 1.5 metres apart and celebrating that as well on social media recognising that it's, it's a really positive thing to be doing, and showing that as a positive example to councils in Greater Manchester. And I think having that kind of the overall Bee network, having committed to having an inclusive approach, they have the the 12 year old cycling is the body around which the infrastructure has been built. Personally, I think the 12 year old should be on a trike. But but it's kind of getting there. And they've they've said no barriers, although you see that being put into practice quite differently, but there is pushback against it. And also, in Greater Manchester, we have Walk Ride, which is a community-based organisation. So there's the central body. And then there's all different smaller groups of people who are really interested in walking and cycling. And you see such fantastic work within those smaller groups that they have really good connections with their councils and the walking and cycling forums. And they're, they're putting a lot of pressure onto the councillors to make sure that everything done is thinking about everyone who who wants to use those, the walking and cycling infrastructure that's being built. And it's just really nice to see kind of everybody committed to making things inclusive, because often, there's a lot of what has to be done. And it often falls onto the shoulders of disabled people to do that labour. So it's nice to not always have to be the one that is pointing out the issues and following up with councillors and councils.17:15And do you think that's kind of important as well that you have? Because that's quite distinctive that you have the sort of walking and cycling advocates together in the same in the same advocacy group? Does that make a big difference?17:26Yeah, I think it's fantastic. I think the speed with which, with which Walk Ride GM and the smaller local groups have grown over the past couple of years, really demonstrates kind of the local appetite for walking and cycling. And the skills in those groups that has developed as well is amazing. So for some people, it's that they they work within walking and cycling design or infrastructure, behaviour change within local councils, and they have those skills from their jobs and from their training. But for some people there, they're kind of new to it, and learning and reading all of this all of the documents and policies that are being produced and it's just fantastic for people being able to hold the councillors to to their word basically. And to the point where people if something's installed, and it doesn't look right, or I pointed out something at the weekend, someone was there measuring it with a tape measure to check out whether the distance between the chicanes meets with the accessibility, design guidelines. Yeah, it's really cool.18:38Returning to the barriers side of things, we talked quite a bit about the physical barriers, but you talked earlier also about the sort of cost and linked with that the storage that you don't want to store something that's expensive, it might get, you know, if it's not secure, it might get stolen, do you think more needs to be done to improve access, you know, availability, affordability of adaptive cycles, ie bikes and trikes and so on?18:59Yeah, definitely. And there's, I think part of it is that if we are moving towards a modal shift, then having these products because they are quite a rare thing. So if you're having to import them, and there's very few being imported, then they're going to be higher cost. So there's kind of one aspect is the more people we have doing it then hopefully a reduction in cost, but they kind of, they are specialist, so they're going to be more expensive than a standard two wheel cycle. So there's some really great schemes going on. So Wheels for Wellbeing have one scheme in London, which is looking at loaning people non-standard cycles, and really helping people choose cycles that are appropriate for them. And and being able to do a loan scheme that can then turn into ownership if they're interested in it. And also, Cycling Projects has a similar thing in West Midlands and we're setting up a trike library in in Manchester and then hopefully that will if people will get a chance to experience trikes, because you, if if they're rare, and you don't get a chance to have a go on them, you're not going to splash out 2000 pounds if you don't, if you don't know how it's going to fit in your life that you really, you need to start doing those everyday journeys, you need to have a go at taking your trike to the, to the shop to get milk and to work. Yeah, and have that that space to build it up and build up over time and see whether it works. So I think with the trike library that we've raised money for, as part of Walk Ride in Manchester, we're going to hopefully loan out cycles for three months at a time maybe more and and help people with journey planning, with ride buddying, and all of those smaller parts to get people into it. The storage, the storage is is a real issue. And it also comes into into policing as well and, and monitoring. And if you I think bike crime is is very low on the police agenda at the moment, because there's not that much funding to police. So it's working out ways to do that. And there is this kind of on on road storage that we've seen in Waltham Forest, and you can get adapted versions of that. So there's options that we just need to keep pushing for and and ensuring that when we're thinking about those options, so in in Greater Manchester, there is there is some of I think in Salford there's some of these on streets cycle hangers, but for people to push for ones that can have non-standard cycles as well, when they're kind of being brought up in that local area.21:32Do you think there's potentially a role for a more universal scheme as well? Because one of the things, one of the criticisms that's been made of the cycle to work scheme is that, you know, certainly you have to have an employer that's opted in it excludes anybody who's not in employment. So a lot of older people, proportionally more disabled people and so on. Do you think we kind of need a more universal access to cycling scheme?21:53Yeah, we definitely do at the moment, it's kind of it falls on the the charity sector to be implementing it and their capacity to implement it is based upon their resources and always scraping the money together to be able to do it. And it's really frustrating when it's something that would help so many people. Yeah, I mean, a universal scheme would be amazing. I tried to you can, there's ways to do it through kind of access to work. But it's always there's always kind of caveats within it. And it's so that you just have to keep arguing for it. So most ability is the obvious way to do it. And there are mobility aids that you access through Motability, so to have that as as a way to do it. And also in the Netherlands, they have very similar schemes where disabled people can have access to active travel equipment. Yeah, and it's it's at a time when I think people are really recognising that disabled people want to be more active, the benefits the public health benefits of disabled people being more active are huge and organisations like great, like, Sport England, as we come out of the pandemic are centralising disable people within within their programmes, and they want to disproportionately invest in disabled people. So I think it is a really good time to start thinking about how to make these how to make access to to non-standard cycles and adaptive cycles, kind of a universal scheme.23:21Cool. And what would if you were thinking about, you know, the your priorities for getting most disabled people cycling, what would you What would you prioritise? What would you think would be the most important thing?23:36One would be the access to the cycles. Two would be working out connected routes within cities. So in Greater Manchester, we have the Bee networks, but we need to look at how the Bee networks connect and with the existing infrastructure that we already have, and how to make that infrastructure barrier free and accessible. Another one would be looking at cycles as mobility aids in in Greater Manchester, for example, people aren't allowed to take cycles onto the trams, which really inhibits multimodal journeys. So you can't you couldn't cycle from, I don't know Sale into Manchester City Centre as a disabled person to work and then think actually, I'm too tired to cycle home let me take my let me take my cycle on the tram. So because you can't do that, then you're, you're then making it a less viable option because you can't do those first and last, or you Yeah, you can't do those parts you need by public transport. So and also to be able to use the pedestrian areas if you need it to be able to put your shopping onto your bike or trike close to the shops and, and having the storage for it as well. And it doesn't I mean for shopping, it doesn't have to be the super-secure sheltered storage. It's just having storage solutions that are well spaced that can that you can use with a trike and have space to not only put your trike, but you have to think about how people are getting off and on. So you need to have that space between the stands.25:16Well, one question I was going to ask was on the research theme was getting obviously this is an under researched area if what would your sort of fantasy research project be if you had a 2 million pound research budget or whatever, you know, imagine? Imagine the zeros what what would your research programme be looking at inclusive cycling, eco inclusive active travel?25:37So for I think inclusive active travel, I think it would be fascinating to do a community mapping project where you work with disabled people's organisations, and you have disabled people map their, their everyday journeys that they do, either by whatever mode of transport they're doing, and then work with people to to look at how active travel can replace non active travel journeys basically. So and to work on the very close ones, so going to places for for small amounts of shopping, going to visit your children going to visit your parents going to the park, taking the kids to school, those journeys, but looking really specifically at the different types of challenges that people have with those. And working out how to then use that to, to create kind of more local regeneration. Because Yeah, because you're not going to get active travel if people physically can't use that their local environment. And and think about how to prioritise those. So that's one aspect. And another aspect I'm really interested in is shared space in in urban centres, because it is a really it's a very aesthetically pleasing thing to have, I think shared space. But obviously, there's a lot of challenges that it offers and conflicting challenges that it has for for different groups of people. So for visually impaired people in particular shared space is quite a challenging thing to have in it can create an environment that that whilst statistically, it's probably very unlikely that you're going to get hit by a bike, it doesn't stop the environment being hostile. So thinking about the types of behaviour within shared spaces and and how to kind of move cohesion both move cohesively and behave in cohesive ways of in the shared space. But also what type of infrastructures within the shared space, enable that that type of behaviour. So kind of a two way approach to that.27:39And actually just thinking about that in terms of the infrastructure and sharing infrastructures, are there good examples? We've talked quite a bit about the barriers and some of the problems, can you think of good examples of environments that work well for inclusive active travel and either in Greater Manchester or somewhere else, and why why it's good.27:59We have a couple of bits now in Greater Manchester, it's difficult, because actually one of the best places for kind of walking and cycling in Greater Manchester is Oxford Road. So and it is a really, really good piece of infrastructure, but the cycle track is just not quite wide enough. So I can't actually use it on the trike. But normally, I would say that there is a few bits of segregated cycle lanes that are kind of four metres wide, and have space for bi directional cycling flow. So I mean, these are perfect. But that's quite a short stretch, I'm trying to think of something. I think low traffic neighbourhoods, for example, have a real opportunity for for inclusive active travel, they don't have the segregated cycle lanes, obviously, but by reducing the cars using the roads, there is that space for any type of cycle. There's space for wheelchairs and mobility scooters. I think the the challenge with low traffic neighbourhoods is that it's not you don't automatically make them inclusive by filtering the cars from them and that the the existing infrastructures within them already can still pose challenges. So I think speed bumps is quite a good example that if you are non-disabled and walking or cycling, a speed bump isn't going to bother you. But if you're on a recumbent cycle, the speed bumps are not very pleasant at all. And the same with pavement drops as well.And there's a lot of the the issues around the built environment. So some of those things around narrow bike lanes or narrow footways and so on. 29:29So is a lot of that to do with accommodating motor traffic and then sort of people on foot, people on bikes that have had to fight it out for what's left.29:47Yeah, exactly. And you see a lot of space for cycling always seems to be reallocating space away from pedestrians. So the weekend I visited a new proposed walking and cycling route through Ancoats well from New Islington to Ancoats along a really really nice marina that's full of people walking, it's kind of there's a few different bakeries, it's a really nice space. And in this area there's not there's not that many open spaces. And instead of putting a segregated cycleway on the main road, which has five lanes of traffic, and has recently had 10 million pounds spent on its upgrade, they are trying to Manchester council is trying to put the walking and cycling route, which is a is a major league route. So it is specifically for commuting through this very pedestrian recreational, kind of sitting and being space, rather than then taking that space away from cars. And by doing that, you automatically kind of put pedestrians and cyclists at odds with each other both in terms of the space itself, but also within this wider space of kind of what a city is and who is in a city where people are supposed to be in the city. And it shouldn't be like that if we really want to have modal shift we need to start reallocating space away from cars and a lot of time if you do anything like that, then you get a lot of uproar from drivers. But there's there's very little discussion about kind of taking that space away from pedestrians and I think that's Yeah, it's often pedestrians who do suffer within that.31:28In terms of the the Greater Manchester context as well. What would you say in the next five years? Do you think things will be different in five years what hopefully what what might have changed around sort of inclusive active travel?31:42I would really like to see more people on non-standard cycles. I've definitely noticed that since I started getting since I have been cycling on a trike. I've had a lot more people on social media, for example, saying, I've never even considered a trike as an option. I thought trikes were for old people, and people saying that they're considering one as well now. And that's really nice, because it shows that you need to see people doing something for you to start considering that it's an option for yourself as well. So I think that's one aspect that if we get more people cycling, and more disabled people cycling, then hopefully it will be kind of it will build. So that's one aspect, I think another aspect is is the access to inclusive cycles. And that's something that needs to be worked on. Another one is with the Bee networks, is that we just need to keep the momentum and the energy of holding councils to account to to ensure that when things are being implemented, they're being implemented inclusively and to LTN 1/20. In it, it helps so much to have that design guidance, really, because you can just keep sending it and saying, you know, this is this is what this is what needs to happen. I think more widely, we need more than just kind of the Bee networks, we need to be looking at local journeys and how to enable those local journeys. And to maybe move I move a bit away from from focusing on commuting journeys is Yeah, and it's looking at the everyday and I think children's journeys as well as a really nice way to do that. Because they're going to school and back. That's two journeys a day. But then obviously, you need to start looking at the wider practices around that because it's hard sometimes for parents to be able to take their children to school. So we need to have the safe infrastructure for that. But it Yeah, to have this kind of joined up approach where there's the policy, there's the projects, there's the infrastructure.33:53So earlier you were mentioning cycling as well with with your dog, who's become something of a star on social media. Could you say something about your dog?34:00Yes, so we got Frida we got her very luckily at the start of the just before the start of the first lockdown. I just I had a bit of trouble at first after my accident. So kind of I'd always been doing cycling for for everyday cycling, cycling since living in the Netherlands, but also I used to do a lot of touring, cycling and sports cycling. And I was really struggling with not being able to do those anymore. And so it's just trying to find ways to enjoy a different type of everyday life. And I've always wanted a dog and we'd always be putting it off saying you know, we'll wait until we live in a house with a big garden and then just finally was really fed up and bought. Let's just do it and she'll be a good excuse to kind of go out the weekends and then because we don't have a car and Cycling is our primary form of transport from the second day we had her we started training, training her I'm not sure that's the right word, but we kind of put her in a backpack and put her on the bike and fed her lots of treats. And she just, she just loves it. She's, she's very attention seeking, which is amazing. So she'll be, she'll be like, sitting in in the bucket of the cargo trike and she'll be quite chilled out and she'll hear people in the distance and she'll suddenly pop up to give them a show, I think. And I think people really like it. They, I, I'm very, I'm very shy and I, I find it quite embarrassing, but it is really nice to cycle past people and see their really positive reaction. And I think it draws attention cycling as well because normally it's quite like a fast someone will just go past you but you can't really notice if and often I carry my husband as well in the front bucket of my of my cargo trike. So it's quite obvious when we get when we're going past and Frida's at the front. So, yeah, yes. And, well, funnily enough as well. I haven't had any close passes on the trike since cycling with Frida ever. So I think that's, I mean, there's something to say there about how people value dogs over over human beings as well. But yeah, really, she loves it, she just sits in the bucket with her goggles. And the goggles is because we started using the cargo trike because it's a bit lower down, I was worried about stones flicking up into her eyes. But she takes it all in her stride. And she she's always excited. I think it's because we are, we kind of started building in having trips, we will do our shopping. But it's about more than doing shopping. It's about going for a nice cycle along nice routes, and stopping at a park where we can throw tennis balls for her and, you know, come back via a nice way to have coffee. So it's kind of it's trying to make, because I've been I've just really loved cycling, so it's making cycling my hobby, but in a in a different way and a more everyday way. So Friday is a really important part of that. But yeah, I mean, I changed my I changed my Twitter handle to Tricycle Mayor. And then some someone said to me that actually it was Friday that was the Tricycle Mayor, and now I've realised that they they are correct. 37:32Everybody loves dogs on bikes, I think my popular tweet ever was just a picture of somebody with three dogs in her cargo bike.37:37Yeah, exactly. They're just they are a people pleaser.37:41Excellent. No, that does link back nicely into the question that I've just remembered. I was going to ask you, which was when you were talking about sort of local trips? So there's been a lot of talk recently about the well, it varies. Sometimes it's the 15 minutes city, sometimes it's the 20 minute neighbourhood, this kind of focus on things being local, do you think that that's useful? those concepts are kind of useful as well?38:01I do. I really like them, I think that we need to, I prefer the 20 minute neighbourhood just in terms of people's speeds. And I, I, I hope that kind of from people spending a lot more time in their local areas as well during COVID. And locked down that perhaps people see the value in that as well. And in my research at the moment, and just talking about people about what they've been doing during lockdown and how they've been using their local neighbourhoods, it's really nice to hear how people know their local neighbourhoods a lot better. And spending a lot more time and getting to know all of the different roads and using local shops and local places to go and get a coffee when they go and walk. And I yeah, I mean, for us it comes into the same kind of having, trying to make cycling and doing these everyday activities part of the hobby. So we're starting to use a local refill shop, for example, and cut that part off of off of supermarket shopping. And it does, it's having the time to do that as well. So there is a there's a time element that you have to have kind of that disposable time to be able to go there. So I'm we're looking at how to do all of our shopping locally, and what we can do plastic free.Thanks so much Harrie, that was a really great chat and I look forward to seeing what happens with you next with your research with Greater Manchester. You've been listening to the active travel podcast. You can find us online on our website at blog.westminster.ac.uk/ATA/podcast, we are most podcasting hosts and you can follow us on Twitter and Instagram at @active_ata. Let us know what you think, drop us a tweet or an email at activetravelacademy@westminster.ac.uk Thanks for listening. Until next time. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Show NotesIf you aren't starting seeds, you're limited to whatever you can plant directly into the garden and whatever starts you can pick up from your local garden center. Starting your own seeds opens up possibilities for growing new crops you couldn't grow otherwise, better varieties for your garden and tastes, and earlier and better harvests to make it all worth it. In this episode of Granite State Gardening, UNH Extension's Emma Erler and Nate Bernitz share proven tips and solutions for successfully starting your seeds indoors, from set up and germination to transplanting. Come for the accessible science, stay for the demystifying banter. Once you learn how to start seeds indoors, you can take your gardening to the next level.  Featured Question: Homemade seed starting and transplant mediaFeatured Plant: Hyacinth Bean (Lablab purpureus)Gardening Tip: Planting DepthBackground Reading:Starting Plants From Seed [fact sheet]Growing Vegetables: When to Plant Your Vegetable Garden [fact sheet]Growing Seedlings Under Lights [fact sheet Connect with us at @askunhextension on Facebook, Instagram and Twitter and subscribe to the monthly Granite State Gardening newsletter. Email us questions, suggestions and feedback at gsg.pod@unh.eduTranscript by Otter.aiNate Bernitz  0:00  Welcome to the Granite State gardening podcast from UNH Cooperative Extension. On today's show, we're talking about starting seeds indoors. in the show notes, you'll find a link to our fact sheet on seed starting, as well as helpful resources on when to start your seeds, indoor lighting and more. eight episodes in we're having a blast putting this podcast together and want to hear from you with your feedback, topic suggestions and gardening questions. Our email is gsg dot pod@unh.edu. We really appreciate the emails we've gotten so far. And hey, if you're not already connected with us on social media, we're on Facebook and Instagram. Just search for ask UNH extension. Now let's get started with seed starting.Greetings Granite State gardeners I'm Nate Bernitz, co host with Emma Erler of the Granite State gardening podcast, a production of UNH extension. Today we're talking about seed starting a practice that opens so many possibilities for gardeners, especially somewhere with a relatively short growing season like New Hampshire. By starting seeds. You won't rely on just whatever seedlings you can get your hands on from local garden centers and plant sales. And you won't be limited to what can be so directly in the garden. You'll have your choice of crops, flowers, and varieties galore to choose from all because you'll be able to provide ideal germination conditions indoors. Once you learn the science and know how of seed starting, you'll be at a whole other level of gardening and won't believe how limited you once were, with spring rapidly and mercifully approaching despite what Punxsutawney Phil says there's no time to waste. So let's get started. Emma, when it comes to seed starting, I want to first know the science, we always want to know the science first. So what are those ideal conditions for germinating seeds?Emma E  2:05  Well, a seed is is basically a shell or husk that's holding an an embryo on the inside. And in order for a seed to germinate, you need to have some specific conditions, you need to have moisture in you need to have light, and you need to have oxygen. And if you don't have those things, then the seeds not going to germinate. When we're talking about germinating seeds at home, we are providing that at least the moisture, at least moisture and oxygen in our seed starting mix that we're using. So that's that potting media that we've chosen to start our seeds in. And then light that's either going to be coming from a really bright window, or ideally actually from some sort of some sort of supplemental lighting system that you have inside your home.Nate Bernitz  2:59  Okay, so moisture, oxygen and light, not nutrients because these seeds already have the nutrients they need to at least get started, so to speak. So ideally, we're recreating these really ideal germination conditions indoors. We know the science, it's been researched, it's been determined, this is what you want to do for these seeds. So if you're doing everything right, what kind of germination percentages are you expecting? Like for every 100 seeds you're trying to start? Are all of them going to germinate? And what sort of practices that maybe aren't so ideal might bring that germination rate down?Emma E  3:40  Wow, that's a really good question. And honestly, it depends a lot on the exact plant that you're trying to propagate. Not all plants create viable seeds equally, some produce a lot more viable seeds than others. So germination rates, gonna vary a fair amount, and it's gonna depend a bit too on the age of that seed, exactly how it was harvested, how it was stored. So if you're buying seeds and packets like most of us do, those seed packets will will have been germination tested by the Seed Company. And on that packet, you'll see a percentage stamped on there somewhere that indicates what the germination percentage of that seed should be under ideal conditions. It's interesting though, because, like I said, some plants do you have a lot of really viable seeds. I mean, if we're looking at something outdoors, let's say an invasive plant like oriental bittersweet, the germination percentage of those seeds tends to be well over 90%. Whereas something like a paperbark maple, it's really only about 5%. So, you know, it helps maybe to know a little bit about the seed that you're starting. But if you have brand new seeds in a packet, you really just need to pay attention to what that jar percentage is listed on that packet and know that really, it would be very rare to have absolutely every seed germinate for you, that typically doesn't happen. But if you have some good quality seed, at least 80%, I think would be acceptable.Nate Bernitz  5:17  Okay, folks, don't go out there and just start germinating oriental bittersweet seeds, because you know, you're good germination, it's alright. It's not impressive. They're invasive, don't do it. When I go to the store, really any store right now, there are seed starting kits everywhere. These they're pretty cheap. They claim, you know, this is what you need. But I want to know from you, what do you actually need in terms of supplies, equipment, what kind of setup is really essential to get to get started and be successful with seed starting,Emma E  5:53  it could definitely be handy to buy one of those complete kits, but you're right, you don't need it. So to start with, I think it's helpful to figure out what sort of containers you want to start your seeds in. seed starting containers are typically on the smaller side, because you don't need to have a whole lot of potting media for a small seedlings root system. And they also are going to have drainage of some sort in them just just like you would for any other potted plants, you need to have drainage for your seed starting containers. So purchase options might include plastic cell packs, or if you're looking for to start something that really doesn't like its roots disturbed, you might go with a biodegradable container, like a peat pot or cow pot. Or if you really don't want to spend money at all, you might have enough materials at home, that could work as seed starting containers. So some people like to use egg cartons. I've seen the bottoms of milk jugs and soda bottles used for seed starting, or even yogurt cups. But what you need to do if you're going to use containers like that is punch some drainage holes in the bottom so that excess water can escape. So once you have your containers figured out, then you're going to need to get yourself a really good high quality seed starting mix. And as seed starting mix is going to be soil less. So that means it's composed of peat moss, probably some very fine, vermiculite and perlite. these are these are both volcanic materials that are often added to potting mix to improve drainage and moisture holding capacity. But you can buy bags of product that specifically are called seed starting next. And these are really important for very fine small seeds, using just a regular potting mix will work just fine for larger seeds. But I found that I have much better Success for Small seeds with that that finer specific seed starting mix. And then once you have those two things now you know that's the absolute bare minimum, you should probably also be thinking about getting together some sort of lighting system. Because for most of us, we don't have a greenhouse attached to our home where we're going to have enough natural light to be able to grow seedlings effectively seal need to have some sort of supplemental light. And it can also be really helpful to have a heat mat. So in an electric heat mat that you put underneath those seedlings to help improve germination. Because usually, most of us aren't keeping our homes quite warm enough for optimal seed germination. But if we're able to just heat up the soil that can be really helpful.Nate Bernitz  8:44  One thing I would add that's really simple would be some sort of tray to go underneath your pots to collect water. And I guess if you're buying those cells, and by cells, you just mean a bunch of little pots kind of fuse together and may come with some sort of drainage tray but and right you know a lot of people I see they'll have these kind of shelving systems where it goes like drainage tray, pots, plants, and then a lighting system kind of above that hanging from the shelf. And, you know, rinse and repeat kind of going up to three, four shelves. So those, those work pretty well. It's interesting though, I was just at a, like, just kind of random store and I saw seed starting kits that were labeled as being window. So cats. So what do you make of seed starting? Really simple way just putting it in a bright window. So it's not a greenhouse, you don't have a lighting system? You're just putting it in a window. That sounds really great. I assume you can probably get plants to germinate, right, but are you going to be able to give them the really ideal conditions they need with just natural light that way?Emma E  9:58  Yeah, I'm glad you asked. That. So you can absolutely get seeds to germinate. No problem just in a window. Actually, for a lot of seeds. Light isn't necessary, really at all for germination, it's what comes after the growth after that that seed has germinated. That is important. And this is really where the light comes in. A lot of times with just using a window cell, the plants aren't getting enough light. And when when this happens, what you'll usually see is extremely long, extended stems on those seedlings. So they might be very weak, they might be really bent as they're trying to grow towards the window. And basically, what you're producing is a very low quality transplant, I think it gets a little bit easier to produce seedlings, just using a window, the later or closer to planting time you go once once the length is longer, but if you're trying to start things, let's say in late February, or early March, and those plants are going to need a whole lot of light, and you're gonna need to keep things indoors for a long time. Probably not going to work all that well, just using the windows cell. But you know, you can certainly try, you know, experimenting in your own home to see if, if perhaps the plants that you're trying to grow will tolerate that sort of lighting scenario.Nate Bernitz  11:28  So when you talk about potentially starting something in late February or March, would that be our category of cool season crops like maybe you're starting broccoli or something like that, that you're actually going to be able to start growing outside pretty early in the spring, or what's your thought there on what you might be starting as early as late February, early March.Emma E  11:48  Definitely some of those those cool season crops, onions can take a really long time if you're growing them from seed. So those you'd start early, and also some of the annual flowers that are a little bit trickier. So let's say you're trying to start your own begonias from seed, those can take a really long time to grow from seed into a plant that's actually large enough and worth the effort to plant outside.Nate Bernitz  12:14  So are there charts or something that you can use to kind of figure all this stuff out? It sounds kind of overwhelming to me like, okay, every single flower, every single vegetable like needs to be what started at a different time? How do you figure this stuff out?Emma E  12:27  There are charts out there. And actually, UNH extension does have a chart for vegetable seedlings. We don't have one for flowers, though. And what I find most helpful is actually to create my own chart, once I have my seeds in hand. So I have all my seed packets. And I'll go through and create a table and list exactly when I need to start each based on the last reasonable frost date for my area or you know, the the most last likely frost date. And it's going to vary from year to year. And it's going to vary based on the crop that you're trying to grow. You know, in general, let's say broccoli, cauliflower, you're probably only going to start that, at most maybe, if you're if you're trying if you're trying to just plant in the spring, maybe four to six weeks before you transplant out into the garden. But other things like those onions, those could take as much as eight to 10 weeks. So once once you start seeds starting it's kind of a process that just keeps rolling along through the spring. You don't do it all at once. Or if you're doing it in the best possible way. It's more of a tapered process.Nate Bernitz  13:39  Interesting. Interesting. And are you starting all of your broccoli all at once? Or are you kind of successionally starting individual crops?Emma E  13:49  usually with seeds starting for spring planting, I'll plant everything. You know, if I was growing multiple different types of broccoli, I would plant all of my broccoli seeds at once. If I was hoping for, you know sustained harvest, I'd probably be planting another round of seeds later on actually in in the summer, so that I could have some plants to put in the ground for a fall harvest.Nate Bernitz  14:15  I see. So successional planting might be more associated with plants that you're direct sowing, like your leafy greens or kind of fast growing plants.Emma E  14:26  Often, yeah, leafy greens, root vegetables. You could do some successional planning with with perhaps broccoli, but a lot of other crops are going to be in the garden for the long haul. So your tomatoes, for example. Beans, you usually you don't start beans indoors usually direct so those but you might have a couple harvests there.Nate Bernitz  14:49  Oh, I'm glad you brought that up. So what plants would you and would you not start indoors and how do you figure that out?Emma E  14:56  Well, it depends again, a bit base On what sort of infrastructure you have to actually start seeds indoors, most vegetable plants can be started directly in the garden. So you don't need to be starting things inside at all. The benefit of starting plants indoors though, is that you really get a jump on the season. And because our growing season tends to be on the shorter side in New Hampshire, having plants that already good size to put out in the garden as soon as growing conditions, you know, are appropriate for them to be outdoors, helps you get better harvest. So things that I would definitely think about starting indoors would definitely be some of the warm season crops like let's say tomatoes, eggplants, peppers, I would probably also be starting so my brassicas, so the broccoli, like we mentioned, kale, maybe cauliflower brussel sprouts, what I wouldn't spend too much time on would be most of the root vegetables. So carrots, beets, let's say leeks. Main reason for that is because for me, I've found that they're very difficult to transplant without damaging them, especially carrots. If you damage that root on a carrot, a lot of times when you're transplanting a lot of times the carrot will fork in multiple different directions. So you'll end up with a very odd looking carrot, right, as opposed to that that nice straight route that you're expecting.Nate Bernitz  16:28  Would your seed packet or seed catalog, Will it say one way or the other? Whether you should start it indoors or sow it outside directly?Emma E  16:35  It will it definitely well. And for a lot of crops, you'll notice that there are two different options. So there's instructions for starting indoors, and they'll be instructions for starting outdoors. For a lot of let's say annual flowers. A lot of those are going to be start indoors only. Although there are some that can be started indoors or outdoors. It just depends a little bit more. But yeah, check check your seed packet, that information is going to be there.Nate Bernitz  17:03  But I guess the the logic for starting something like a tomato indoors as well it will germinate outside you'd have to wait until the soil is already pretty warm. So you're just losing valuable growing time. It doesn't need to be outdoors germinating, when when it could be already in the ground as I started Transplant at the same time, like would you potentially put a seed in the ground for tomato at the same time that you would actually be transplanting out something that you already started?Emma E  17:36  The That's exactly right. And so if that tomato did mature to the point to produce fruit, it's probably getting close to the end of the growing season. Whereas if you had planted that indoors and transplanted out a decent size seedling plant, then you could be getting fruit, you know, by mid summer. So yeah, it makes aNate Bernitz  17:57  big difference from from the time that you start a seed to the time that you're transplanting it or is that like a month long process longer shorter? Or does it depend?Emma E  18:06  It depends again, yeah, so plants grow at different rates. For a tomato, usually you're looking at no more than six to eight weeks before you're going to transplant outdoors. But for other things, it's going to be even shorter, you know, for let's say cucumbers, you're probably not going to start those indoors more than a month before you're going to plant them outdoors. And I should also say too, that there are some plants that just don't transplant well. So those are pretty much always better planted directly in the garden. squashes and cucumbers fall in this category, you can start them indoors, but if you do, you want to be really careful to avoid disturbing the roots when you go to plant. So that's where using one of those biodegradable peat pots or maybe a pot meet at a newspaper or something is is good. And the same I found goes for peas and beans. They they germinate readily in the garden once the soil is warm enough. So there's there's no sense in doing it inside.Nate Bernitz  19:05  Right? If you're using those plastic cells, you have to kind of squeeze the bottom to get it loose. And that disturbs the root since you're saying that's okay with something like a tomato but not for a squash.Emma E  19:16  Exactly.Nate Bernitz  19:17  Yep, got it. Going back to the potting media as you called it or seed starting mix. I see three options. So one of them is to buy a premade seed starting mix, like you're buying a bag and it says its seed starting mix. I've seen those vary really widely in price and ingredients too. You can also buy these pellets essentially that you just add water to. And so I've seen those a lot and you can also make it yourself so you could buy the individual ingredients like you were talking about. What's your take on it? Do you prefer one method over the other? I mean, why not just buy the pre mixed bag. That seems like the easiest way to go.Emma E  20:01  That's usually the way I go, just because it is easier. And if you're trying to make a mix yourself, usually those individual components come in such large quantities that you're going to be left with trying to store, perhaps a huge bale of peat moss or vermiculite, perlite, all those materials as opposed to just having a bag that comes with those things already mixed up in a good ratio. So I think it's worthwhile just just getting the the premix. But of course, you know, if you if you really want to dabble and try to make specific seed starting mixes depending on what you're growing, and that might make a difference if you're if you're growing really fussy plants from seed, but most of the seeds starting mixes are going to work just fine. And those peat pellets that you mentioned before, to name those work really nicely as well. And those are also good for plants that you don't want to disturb the root system of. I often don't use them just because they're a little bit more expensive, but they're absolutely a viable option.What is the best soil mix for starting seeds? That's this episode's featured question. By and large, you'll have best luck starting plants from seed if you use a seed starting mix soilless seed starting mixes have a fine texture and are made of peat moss, perlite, coconut coir, fiber, and vermiculite. different brands will have different ratios of these ingredients. But the best products will typically contain about 50% peat moss and 50% fine vermiculite or fine perlite. pasteurized compost may also be a component of some seeds starting mixes, but it isn't absolutely necessary. gardeners who make their own seed starting mix may be interested in incorporating incorporating compost to cut down on the amount of pea enquire they have to use because both of these have environmental consequences. The tricky part of using compost though, is making sure it is free of weed seeds, insects and diseases. Eventually, your seedlings may need to be transplanted into bigger containers. When that happens, you can switch to using a general potting mix. potting mixes are different from seed starting mixes and that they have a coarser texture and often contain fertilizer, something that larger plants need. But seedlings really don't. potting mixes are often a little less expensive than seeds starting mixes, and can be purchased in larger quantities. And used for a larger number of purposes like potting up your house plants. Regular potting mixes can be used for seeds starting to, but they work best for large seeds. Very small seeds may not germinate as well in coarser mixes, because the seeds won't have good contact with the media. A regular potting mix will work just fine for very large seeds like cucumbers or squash, we'll probably have better luck with a seed starting next for most other veggies and flowers. So pick up a package of seed starting mix for your seed starting ventures this spring and have fun planting.Nate Bernitz  23:36  Okay, so in terms of where you're going to be starting your seeds, so obviously indoors, but is the room temperature important. And I know the or the mix temperature is important because you mentioned that warming matt earlier but is this something you can do in a cooler basement or garage or something like that? Where does it really need to be in your home that you're keeping warm enough for you.Emma E  24:01  For most seeds, what's going to be more important is actually that soil temperature. So rather than having the air be really warm, having the soil be warm is key. And so for a large number of seeds, the ideal germination temperature is going to be something like 75, maybe even 80 degrees and most of us aren't going to be keeping our homes quite that warm. So in order to get the soil at least to that ideal temperature, putting a heat map beneath them is important. Once the seed does germinate, though, it is important that the air temperature isn't too cold because if it is too cold just just like with house plants, you can see some damage to foliage. So I wouldn't try starting seeds in a room that's cooler than let's say 50 degrees, which for most of us there should be a place in our home that's at least 50 degrees and if you're using a heat mat that should be perfectly fine. But it's also okay to you know, if your home is warmer, if you don't use a heat mat, it's not the end of the world, it might just take seedlings a little bit longer to germinate. And you might have a slightly lower germination percentage. But let's say you do keep the inside of your home 70 degrees, then perhaps the heat mat is unnecessary. But if you do if you are trying to start them in a slightly cooler environment that that heating mat is is really important.Nate Bernitz  25:34  And is there any benefit to using a humidity dome, like creating a mini greenhouse?Emma E  25:40  Definitely, definitely when you're trying to get seeds to germinate and when seedlings are really small, keeping the humidity up around them is important. And I think one of the number one reasons for this is that that that potting media will dry out really quickly if if you just have that that media open to the air and low humidity conditions in your home. And seedlings do need consistent moisture. So both seeds to germinate need consistent moisture and very, very small seedlings need consistent moisture in order to survive. And so if you have one of these, you know a plastic covering or a dome lid that you can put on a tray that will help you keep the humidity up in that in that little environment around those seedlings. So that you don't have to be watering constantly. Because most of us aren't going to be around to you know, hit the soil at the spray bottle. You know every hour or whatever it takes to keep it evenly moist.Nate Bernitz  26:39  So it's an alternative to humidity dome just watering more often?Emma E  26:43  potentially, yeah, I still think you're going to have better luck, if you do put a cover over top. But it's not absolutely necessary, you can certainly get a lot of things to start just with, you know ambient indoor conditions, as long as you aren't letting that that soil mix get totally dry. You just don't want that mix to get soggy either.Nate Bernitz  27:07  So when you actually get started, do you moisten or get the mix wet before you even put the seeds inEmma E  27:13  you do. So you want that mix to be pre moistened before you sow the seeds. So what I typically do if I have a brand new bag of potting mix, is take them out in a bucket or you know bowl something I'm going to use to fill containers with put in just enough water in it that it's it's moist. But if I if I grab it and squeeze some in my hand, it's not the water's not going to drip out of it, I'm not going to be able to wring it out, that's going to be just about perfect. We'll fill up my containers, I'll plant my seeds. And then rather than totally because it's it's you do want good soil contact with those seeds. So watering a little bit after you've planted can be helpful, but you don't want to drown them. So that's where a spray bottle can come in handy. Or a misting function on a hose. Because if you if you're using just a watering can, or going directly under the faucet, you're going to wash those seeds all around. So they're not going to stay where you planted them. And that's that's probably the biggest concern.Nate Bernitz  28:19  And planting depth is actually pretty important, right?Emma E  28:22  Very important. Yeah, so some seeds require light in order to germinate. So they've actually adapted to basically germinate just on the soil surface, where others actually germinate better if there's a covering of soil. So if they are kept in the dark.Nate Bernitz  28:39  I see, well, and let's talk just a little bit more about planting technique because you just kind of rolled over that you're like you plant your seeds. How do you do that? I know, one issue I've had is seeds vary dramatically in size, and I struggle to kind of manage and handle the really small seeds.Emma E  28:58  Really small seeds can be really difficult. And you know, there are some tools out there for planting individual seeds, like basically little vials and such it'll allow you to just release a single seed at a time. But often what's easier if you're dealing with a really small seed is to plant more like a tray of those seedlings and then transplant them into other containers later on with a larger seed that you can actually pick up individually with your fingers than planting individual seeds in a container works just fine. And I always defer to whatever the depth recommendation is on the seed packet. So pretty common for seeds to be buried like a quarter of an inch to an eighth of an inch. Very large seeds might be buried about half an inch. And if something says it needs light to germinate, then that basically means you're just sprinkling it on the soil surface. Maybe putting a fine dusting of seed starting mix over Top, but you want that to be open so that it's getting plenty of light. So seeds need that.Nate Bernitz  30:05  Is the amount of light important there like you actually need to turn on your grow lights to get them to germinate or as adjust them kind of being on the surface getting some ambient room light, is that enough?Emma E  30:16  I'd either have them under your grow lights, or have them set up in a window cell just to get them going. Because they are they're going to need some some actual you know, real light exposure. As far as I know, I've never tried growing seeds that need light in an interior room without any light sourceNate Bernitz  30:34  easy enough to turn those lights on, though Easy enough is is it just one seed per pot, does it depend on the crop? Is it okay? If you accidentally drop a few seeds into a potEmma E  30:45  depends on the crop a bit, I will usually plant at least two seeds in a pot, just because you know that the germination percentage is is never going to be 100%. And if you're looking at that that packet you have and it says maybe 75% that means that you know every fourth container that you plant, it's likely that a seed isn't going to germinate. So if you put two in there, then chances are pretty good, you're gonna get something and then all you need to do if you have you know more than you need is just thin out the extra. So you just have at the end, one plant growing in that pot. And with very, very small fine seeds, like I said, it can be easier to plant a whole bunch of those in a container. And then as they get bigger and develop their first set of true leaves. So when seedlings first come up, they have what are called their seed leaves, which pretty much look the same on every plant. But once that next set of leaves comes out, or better yet, the second set of true leaves comes out, then you can transplant those into individual containers.Nate Bernitz  31:51  Okay, I see that's really interesting, I didn't realize that you're potentially having to transplant before you transplant.Emma E  31:59  You can Yeah, I mean, the other alternative with very, very small seeds would just be to try to plant as few as you possibly can in one container, and then thinning them out within said container. But I find it's perhaps a little less wasteful, if you just plant in a, you know, a larger container and then take those seedlings out to grow them out a little bit further. And you could do the same thing, basically with any seedling. But with larger size seeds, where it's easy enough to pick up an individual seed, I think it's easier to just plant them directly in the container you want them to be in.Nate Bernitz  32:35  I see. And for those larger seeds where you're planting a single seed, it germinates it, are you ever gonna have to transplant that up to a larger pot before transplanting it outside? Or are you pretty much planting it in the same little pot that it's going to be and until it goes out to your garden?Emma E  32:53  guess that depends a bit on when you've started your seeds. And when you're actually able to get things outside in the garden. Ideally, you're not going to have to put that extra labor in of moving plants from the seed starting pot into a larger size pot. But was were certain things that grow pretty quickly. You might have to so for example, with tomatoes, before I have had to bump my tomatoes into a slightly larger pot. And how I made that decision was was basically just on how quickly that soil media was drying out. Those tomatoes were drying out and they had to be watered multiple times a day. And they were starting to show signs of nutrient deficiency. So I figured it was worth my effort to actually bump them into a larger container so that they'd be at in their best condition at their healthiest when I went to move them into the garden.Nate Bernitz  33:46  Really just an act of necessity there I guess.You mentioned how these seeds really look so similar with just that first set of leaves. So really helpful to label right. I assume you do label your your pots, what do you write on those labels? Just the name of the plant? Or is there anything else that you find helpful?Emma E  34:22  I do. So I will at the very least write the variety down. Because usually I'll all recognize that plant looks like as it gets a little bit bigger. But if you're newer to gardening, write down the the type of plant write down the variety and I think it's helpful to to write down the date of when you actually sowed that seed. Because again, on seed packets, you're going to see information that's going to say the number of days to germination. For a lot of cases, it'll be somewhere between seven to 14 days. And that helps you keep track of whether things are moving along the way they they should or not. So let's say You know, I plant the seed and the packet said, I should start to see growth within seven to 14 days and three weeks later, nothing's happening. That That tells me that I probably need to sow some new seed. If I don't put the date on there, it becomes hard to keep track of that.Nate Bernitz  35:16  there's kind of two periods here. There's the period between when you've put the seed in and germinates, aka like you actually see the plant coming out of the ground. And after that occurs, so what changes, I assume you're having to keep that, that potting medium moist. Before and after, you mentioned how you might as well just have those grow lights on before and after. I'm wondering about fertilization, I'm wondering whether you need to kind of up your watering, as those plants mature. How do you think about that?Emma E  35:50  Well, fertilization is definitely going to come into play. So the seed starting mix, that that we've talked about, doesn't come with any nutrients in it at all. And that's because seeds don't need those nutrients right away, right. But as they continue to grow, those those seedlings are going to exhaust the original stores of energy that they had within those sea believes. And they're going to need those nutrients from someplace else. And so it becomes essential once those seedlings have a few sets of true leaves. So once the leaves look like they showed on a mature plant, then you'll want to start using a fertilizer and for indoor seed starting, I recommend using a complete water soluble fertilizer. So that could be something like a 20 2020. So you have all of the three main mic our macronutrients nitrogen, phosphorus, and potassium. And often, many of these products will also have some of the micronutrients included as well, with really young seedlings, typically, you can get away with using like a half strength fertilizer, because you don't want to burn those those young new roots. So to play it on the safe side, go with a diluted fertilizer. And depending on the product that you're using, you know, the recommendations might be to apply weekly maybe to apply every two weeks. If you're not applying enough, plants are definitely going to tell you, you'll see signs of nutrient deficiency in the foliage. So leaves all start looking good. They're changing colors that they shouldn't be CLC, you know, maybe yellows, maybe purples. And if you're doing too much, then you might actually be seeing some burning on that foliage. So the edges of leaves might might start to get brown and crispy, actually from Salt damage from the salts that are in the fertilizer.Nate Bernitz  37:53  which might kind of look like too much sun as well.Emma E  37:56  Right? Yeah. So you have to do a little bit of troubleshooting there. And it's useful to keep track of when you applied fertilizer, how much you applied, so that you can maybe try to sleuth out what's going on.Nate Bernitz  38:11  And just to clarify, you said that you wait to apply fertilizer until you've seen the first true set of leaves. So not that first, kind of what false set of leaves, I'm not sure thatEmma E  38:23  leaves, seeds leaves. I would wait until the plant has three or four sets of true leaves. Yeah, I would, I would because actually those seed leaves, those those are eventually going to fall off of the plant as it develops as the the nutrients that are within those are used up. So I would wait a little while because if you start too soon the plants just frankly not going to be using that fertilizer.Nate Bernitz  38:53  Do you find that that's a source of confusion whether a set of leaves is a true set of leaves or not like is there an easy way to tell whether the leaves are that first set of true leaves or are just another set of seeds leaves?Emma E  39:07  Oh, that's a good question. So with all this, the majority of the seedlings that you're going to grow are what are called dicots, dicotyledon, so there's going to be two seed leaves. So the first leaves that you see when a plant germinates, those of those seeds leaves, any leaf, or any leaves that develop after that point, are true leaves as what we call them. So those original seed leaves tend to be fairly nondescript, a lot of times they're just kind of oval shaped smooth edges, but when the true leaves come out, they look more like what you'd expect the the leaves to look like on that plant so uh, you know, a seed leaf on a tomato is just kind of this this strap like little pair of leaves, but when the true leaves come out, you're actually seeing that deeply dissected More like compound leaf of a tomato plant.Nate Bernitz  40:03  That's really helpful. And just one more thing on fertilization. So you mentioned this water soluble, complete fertilizer, the way I would imagine you doing that is you would take some measurement of water like correlating to the instructions on the fertilizer, you mix it up, and then you pour it into the tray and the plants take it up through the bottom, is that the best way to do it? Or is it actually better to to pour it over the top and have that go through the potting mix,Emma E  40:34  you know, you can do it either way. So some people actually exclusively water their their seedling plants from the bottom. And that's, that's a legitimate way to go about this. And you could put the fertilizer in that way. I usually don't just because it to me is a little bit more work to water that way. So all water from the top and I'll apply fertilizer over the top. But either either way is going to work just fine.Nate Bernitz  41:01  So if you're using a water soluble fertilizer, is that a kind of powder? Or is that an actual liquid that you're putting into your water?Emma E  41:11  So the stuff I'm talking about is usually like those, those blue crystals. Nate Bernitz  41:16  Oh so you just sprinkle that on? Emma E  41:18  no, I mix that up according to the label instructions. So it's usually some sort of, you know, crystal and product that you're mixing into water. For starting seedlings, I usually don't use inorganic fertilizer. So like a fish emulsion fertilizer, just because seedlings can't use it very, most of that fertilizer product is going to waste because there there aren't any microbes in that seed starting mix to break down that organic matter and make it available to plants. It's also really smelly. So I tend to save that for outdoors. I start using my organic fertilizers once I have plants outdoors in the garden, and I'm using more of these these chemical fertilizers indoors just to get things started.Nate Bernitz  42:07  Okay, that makes sense. One other fertilizer question. I typically haven't seen seed starting instructions on fertilizer. So, you know, I'll just see kind of measurements for plants in general, was your advice just to kind of half that recommendation for seed starting?Emma E  42:28  Yeah, exactly. So if you buy a product that says it's listed for flowers and vegetables, there will be instructions on the packaging that tell you how you should mix it up for those plants. For seedlings, I do have strength. So just dilute whatever that recommendation is. So that you're applying it at half strength. Okay,Nate Bernitz  42:49  let's talk about lighting. This is a source of confusion for sure it sounds easy enough, just get a great light but we know that it's not that simple. For one thing when you go to the hardware store, the big box store somewhere like that they may not have grow lights, you're going to be looking at a long aisle of a lot of different fluorescent and LED light options. So how do you how do you actually make a decision on what lights to use? is there is there something you should be using a particular or do you actually have to go to some specialty store where they do sell grow lightsEmma E  43:31  I actually do think that it's nice to buy your grow lights from a you know a greenhouse supplier or Garden Supply Company so that you know you're actually getting lights that are intended for plant use that should be kicking out the the wavelengths that that plants need and the intensity of light that plants need. short of that, you know if you really want into one, let's say get into le DS which a lot of people are interested in that I would definitely be buying those from a greenhouse supplier so that you know you're getting good quality plant lights. If you're looking for probably the most affordable option that's honestly pretty foolproof that people have been using for decades. It's just good old fluorescent lights that you put in a shop light fixture so those fluorescent tubes that's what I've always used for indoor seed starting and honestly works really well and it's nothing in particular just cool white bulbs or or a full spectrum bulb will work as well.Nate Bernitz  44:40  Any more specificity there. I've seen the different t numbers and things like that there are there is a lot of choices when it comes to buying lights. EmmaEmma E  44:49  I've always gone with T 8s. There's t fives I think what t 12s but t-8 bulbs worked just fine for me with with fluorescent fixtures, usually there's there's not a lot of heat kicked off by these. And so the the bigger thing that you're dealing with is just having, you know, the right intensity of light for those seedlings. And it's something you'll probably have to experiment a bit with with your own setup you have at home. But plants will tell you pretty quickly whether they're getting enough light or not, there's some some symptoms that show up really quickly. With plants that are either getting too not getting enough or if they're too close to the light fixture. Of course, right, carry on. So if plants aren't if those seedlings aren't getting enough light, their stems are going to get really, really long. And so you're going to have this this really long, skinny, spindly stem that that isn't very strong at all. And if you're really not getting enough light, then the the foliage might might be kind of pale, too. That's that's what you see with dark grown seedlings. If there's too much, and usually it's not so much that there's too much, it's just that the plants are too close to the lights and then the heat that's getting kicked off will damage them, you'll actually see signs of burning on the foliage so so dead areas on the foliage, where it's too close to the lights. If you're using like the the TI eight fluorescent bulbs in a shop light fixture, usually about six inches is perfect is that sweet spot for the lights being kept away from the seedlings. So it no matter what system you're using for your your grow lights, you do want to make sure that it's easy enough to raise and lower them as needed based on what your seedlings need, because these plants are going to grow to write. So you're going to need to raise that light up over the course of the seedlings life.Nate Bernitz  46:54  How much room Do you need to give for these plants to grow? Like if you're designing your system, and you're wondering, okay, how far away does the one shelf need to be from another you're thinking about ultimately, how high can that light go? In your experience with these different vegetables and flowers? How tall are they getting before they're going out to the garden,Emma E  47:17  I guess I would do probably at least 18 to 24 inches in between shelves, if you if you have a whole you know, shelving rack of, of seedlings, you know, tomatoes potentially can get quite tall. While you have them indoors depending on when you started them. And some of the annual flowers too, can sell let's say you're growing cosmos, they can get really tall. So you're going to need that extra height. Now, hopefully, if you've started your seedlings at the appropriate time for when you're going to be able to plant outdoors. They're not going to have outgrown that space.Nate Bernitz  47:55  Well, because the fixture takes up a few inches. And then you said you need six inches between the fixture and the plants. Yeah. So if a plant is getting up to a foot or something, potentially, I would think you might need even a bit more than 18 inches.Emma E  48:13  Yeah, potentially. Yep. So yeah, like, like I said, it's going to depend a bit on what you're growing. So if you're producing a whole bunch of tomatoes, you'll probably need a little bit more space. If you're, let's say growing something like an onion, it's not going to get all that big under the lights at 18 inches is probably going to be more than enough.Yeah, yeah, I think the best systems that it is possible to move things around.Nate Bernitz  48:53  Okay, so ultimately, how do you actually know when seedlings are ready? Or is it more just a matter of It's time for these to go out whether they're ready or not like it, it gets to the point where the soils warm enough where we're past last frost like it's go time you want to get them out there, even if they're not quite ready,Emma E  49:13  I guess if you were trying to, you know, grow out, let's say you know, garden center quality seedlings, then you would want them to have root systems that fill up the entire pot that you've grown them in and have, you know, at least probably, let's say three or four, maybe even five sets of true leaves. If you're trying to transplant a seedling when it's too small, it might not survive the process because the roots get so disturbed with you taking that seedling out of the pot, that it might not make it but if that root system is really robust and is filling up that container nicely, then there shouldn't be really any trouble with transplanting at all.Nate Bernitz  49:59  So that's just why it's so important to get the timing right of when you start them. Because Yeah, generally know how long it's going to take for it to get to that stage where it's ready to be transplanted. So timing is just so key thenEmma E  50:12  exactly, yeah, yep. And that's where having that that whole chart going is, is really helpful. And I think sometimes too, you might adjust things. So usually that the recommendations on a seed packet or on a seed chart, you might find, they'll, it'll say something like, you know, eight to 10 weeks. And so you're like, Alright, so you know, do I do eight do i do nine do i do 10. And, you know, you could, let's say try tried 10 weeks the first year, and if your seedlings are grown out too much, then note that and be like, I think I could really get away with doing that at nine or eight weeks next year.Nate Bernitz  50:49  That makes sense to be more conservative as a beginner. And as you get more comfortable, you can push the envelope in different ways, try and move up your window get a little bit more aggressive, but you should have a good foundation of success.Emma E  51:02  Yeah, if you have absolutely, if you're certain you've, you've really got everything going right, if you've got the girl light setup, you've got the heat mat, you've got your good seed Maxi, seed starting next, then you can probably start your seeds on that, that lower end of the spectrum there. So if it says eight to 10 weeks, I'd probably start the at eight weeks. If you have less than ideal conditions. So you know, it's going to be colder, where the seedlings are germinating, let's say, then you'll probably want to go with that longer window. So if you can't get that soil up to 75 degrees, then let's go with the 10 weeks versus the eight weeks.Nate Bernitz  51:38  And I've heard a lot about hardening off, which is that transition period, you're not just taking plants from under your grow light and just walking out and planting them in your garden, right, they need to kind of get accustomed to being outside accustomed to that different type of intense summer over, you know, light and all of that. So do you need to wait until the root system is filled out until you've got enough true leaves before you start the hardening off process? Or can the hardening off process also be part of those plants getting to where they're ready to be transplanted,Emma E  52:14  I would probably wait to do the hardening off process until those plants are ready to be transplanted or very, very close to being ready to be transplanted. I think if you're if you're doing it too soon, you're probably putting a little bit of stress on that very young plant that's unnecessary. So once you're getting close to you know, when you want to transplant when it's going to be appropriate for you to transplant outdoors, that's when you want to start hardening things. And basically that means getting plants adapted to outdoor conditions being meaning sun exposure, wind exposure and and exposure to cooler temperatures as well.Nate Bernitz  52:53  Yeah, so say more about that. How long does that process take? And where are you actually doing that? Are you how do you actually experience and get that gradual process? I kind of find that to be overwhelming just looking outside like okay, where do I put them first? And where do I move them after that? etcEmma E  53:14  oh, yeah, totally. So I think ideally, you're going to do your hardening over about a two week period. So it's nice and gradual and your plants don't really experience much stress at all. When plants go from indoors to outdoors, they basically are not ready to be exposed to direct full sun, even if they've been under a grow light. And so it's if you have a shady area in your property, let's say underneath a tree, it's appropriate to bring them from indoors to outdoors and have them underneath that tree initially. And then over the course of a couple of weeks, you're going to gradually bring those plants out into full sun for longer and longer periods. So basically, you know tapering over the course of two weeks until by the end of that period, that plant is in full sun out there, you know all day for the entire day. If you don't have a setup like that, and what a lot of people do, we'll set up a little shade cloth situation so you can buy material that's made expressly for this purpose for actually blocking out some of the sunlight to transition plants or to grow plants that require more shade outdoors. So you can you can set up your little shade cloth transition area. And if you're really trying to push the envelope with your your hardening your seedlings, you might have to bring them indoors at night. If there's you know, still a chance of really cold temperatures or frost. If that sounds like too much work to you then you'll want to do your hardening process once the chance of frost is gone so that you can leave things out all night.Nate Bernitz  54:57  Okay, that that makes sense. And I think recently seen a lot of people with these pretty cheap, actually little plastic greenhouses? We hear questions about those all the time, you know, what are they good for? What can I do with them? Is hardening off one part of gardening where they actually could really come in handy?Emma E  55:16  Yeah, I think so that could be a really good use for some of those those inexpensive, unheated greenhouse structures.Nate Bernitz  55:22  Yeah, how would you use it in that way,Emma E  55:24  basically, so that that greenhouse is going to block out some of the light, right, that that's coming in, not a lot, most of that's going to be transmitted. But if I was, if I was bringing seedlings that have been grown indoors out to the greenhouse, I might, you know, have some shade cloth over them, or some remain, or something that's going to protect them a bit. And, you know, over over the course of a week or so, you know, take that off.Nate Bernitz  55:53  Yeah, I guess that plastic structure gives you, you know, a pretty easy ability to drape stuff over it.Emma E  55:59  Yeah, yep, absolutely. AndNate Bernitz  56:02  it's gonna protect the plants a little bit from the elements also from like animals or pests or things like that. It's It's literally an enclosure. I know there are pros and cons with those, but enough people have them that helpful to know what to do with them.Emma E  56:17  Well, in the daytime temps inside those structures to will be considerably warmer than the outside temperatures in the spring. And so that that'll definitely help boost growth as well, you'll just have to pay a little bit closer attention to watering.Nate Bernitz  56:30  I know that there are a few common issues with seed starting. You've mentioned a few you've mentioned that if your plants are leggy, that means not enough light, you've mentioned discolored leaves could be indicating a nutrient issue. And you talked a little bit about that. Another one that we hear a lot about is something called dampening off. What is that? What does that look like? And what's the solution?Emma E  56:57  Yeah, damping off is actually a fungal disease. So it happens sometimes if potting media is tainted in some way, or if you're using containers that hadn't been cleaned out. So basically, what happens if you have very cool conditions is it's favored by by cooler temperatures. So so cool, damp conditions where you're starting your seedlings, seeds will actually rot right at the soil line the stems of the seedling well, and so what you'll notice first typically is that all of your seedlings are tipping over. And when you look really closely, you'll notice that it's actually rotten at the base. The best way to get around this is to keep that soil media warm. Because only seedling plants are susceptible to this and again, when it's cooler temperatures, that's when it's more likely to happen. So keep that soil media warm so that beer helping prevent this disease and seedlings are going to grow faster and get out of that vulnerable stage and use a clean potting mix in clean containers when you go to start your seedlings.Nate Bernitz  58:09  Okay, that is really important information. I'm glad we got to talk about that a little bit. One other issue I've heard about is poor root development. So the roots just never really seeming to fell out and therefore therefore being really difficult to transplant and all that how can you ensure good root developmentEmma E  58:28  if roots really aren't developing on your seedlings I would probably be looking at the the potting mix that you're using and your watering practices. If you're using a really you know lower quality potting mix that's got like big chunks of bark in it or, or it's just not very fine. The seeds might have a hard time growing and that media especially very small seedlings, and if you're over watering, that can be another cause because basically if there is abundant water in that container, the seedling is never really going to have to grow its roots out further to be able to reach water. So letting especially as your your plants start to mature. It's important to let those containers dry out a bit before you water again, you don't want to get to the point of wilting but you want to water you know, just before you get there.Nate Bernitz  59:28  Another one of those fine lines of gardening yeah too much not too little.Emma E  59:32  Exactly.This episode The featured plant is hyacinth bean lablab purpureus. hyacinth bean is a beautiful member of the Pea family fabacea, that is native to tropical Africa. In New Hampshire gardens it can be grown as an annual vine. hyacinth bean is highly ornamental, with purple tinge three part of leaves in spikes of fragrant pea like rose purple flowers that are followed by glossy Ruby purple seed pods. Really, really beautiful. It is a fast growing vine that can grow 20 feet long and completely cover a trellis and a single growing season. hyacinth bean is one of my personal favorites for covering arbors trellises fences and pergolas. This plant is easy to grow in gardens with average well drained soil and full sun. seeds can be sown directly in the garden after the last frost date. Or if you want to get a jump on the season indoors six to eight weeks earlier. hyacinth bean roots don't like to be disturbed though. So if you plant seeds indoors, grow them in biodegradable newspaper peat or cow pots so that you can plant the pot directly in the soil instead of needing to disturb the roots. Once hyacinth bean plants are growing in your garden, the only thing you'll need to watch out for Japanese beetles, which thoroughly enjoy this plant, although they will rarely kill it. So if you're looking for an attractive and interesting vine to plant in your garden this summer, give hyacinth bean a try.As we finish this episode, I'd like to share one more tip how deeply to plant seeds. Planting depth can have a direct impact on seed germination. Planting too shallow may result in poor germination due to low soil moisture retention near the soil surface and planting to deep may exhaust the seeds food reserves before the seedling can reach the soil surface leading the seedling depth or weak seedling development. seed packets will almost always include instructions on how deeply to plant seedlings. If you don't have this information for some reason, then a good rule of thumb is to plant seeds at a depth approximately twice their diameter. Very small seeds should simply be pressed gently into the surface of the soil and then barely covered with media. When in doubt, plant seed shallower. And remember, seeds will also germinate better with even soil moisture. Prevent potting mix from drying around germinating seeds by covering trays with dome lids, or covering individual containers with plastic wrap or plastic bags.Nate Bernitz  1:02:53  insightful tips as always, and I'm betting I'm not the only one excited to try my luck with hyacinth bean. that's gonna do it for today's show on seed starting the eighth episode now of Granite State gardening. Our goal with the podcast is to provide trusted, timely and accessible research based information to you and fellow gardeners. We've been so appreciative of all the great feedback suggestions and questions so far, but keep those emails coming. Our address is g s g dot pod@unh.edu. And we're on social media at ask you an H extension where we post content regularly. You can help us grow this new podcast by sharing it with fellow gardeners and if you're so inclined by giving us a glowing five star review, wherever you're listening, we really appreciate all the great reviews you've already left. Thanks for tuning in to another episode of Granite State gardening until next time, keep on growing and starting seeds Granite State gardeners, we'll talk with you again soon.Granite State gardening is a production of University of New Hampshire Cooperative Extension and equal opportunity educator and employer. views expressed on this podcast are not necessarily those of the university's its trustees, or its volunteers, inclusion or exclusion of commercial products and this podcast does not imply endorsement. The University of New Hampshire US Department of Agriculture and New Hampshire County is cooperate to provide extension programming in the Granite State. Learn more@extension.unh.eduTranscribed by https://otter.ai 

In this episode, Tom and Michael share about their very first investments and some fun tips on how to get your children thinking about investing at a young age. --- Michael: Greetings, and welcome to another episode of the remote real estate investor weekend wisdom edition. I'm Michael album and today I'm joined by   Tom: Tom Schneider.   Michael: And today we're gonna be talking about our first investments ever. And some things to think about talking with young people with kids about how to get started in investing, and how we were able to dip our toes into the world of investing and arrive where we are today. So let's get into it.     Alright, Tom, so I am very curious to hear from you. How did you get your start with investing in general doesn't have to be specific to real estate. I know your story. You got started after college with real estate. But is that where your story begins?   Tom: So my initial foray into any type of investment, it was a grandma kind of a deal. So grandma set up a brokerage account. I'm not like a trust fund baby, but definitely super generous of grandma to set to buy some shares of stock way back in the day. So when I was cash, it might have been like, first grade, I think for like birthdays. She just bought like a share of Disney or something that she thought that I would like, and it was…   Michael: Yeah.   Tom: …so fun. Again, not wildly high amounts. But I remember my grandma buying me Disney and then like second or third grade, periodically pulling up the newspaper. For those who don't know what it is just getting it to looking at like the stock section. And then like, looking to that stock or something and just seeing it move. It was really eye opening of Oh, wow, I just made whatever, a half a percent. And I didn't have to do anything. I think it was some early of passive income and investing so   Michael: And so is that what you eventually sold for the downpayment on your current house?   Tom: I did not know it wasn't from the down payment on my turn. But are you ready for a choosy beggar comment?   Michael: Absolutely.   Tom: Okay, so this is the like, choosy beggar comment. I am like, you know, again, so grateful, like what a cool thing to do for a kid, but she didn't reinvest the dividends. So like, when I like ever got old enough to check on the account, there's just a bunch of the money, like whenever there was a dividend or like, it would just sit in cash. So it's like,   Michael: Thanks a lot Grandma.   Tom: No, no, no, choosy a beggar choosing beggar. But it was a good lesson that I mean, what it did little math exercise for to go back and Okay, if this had just been reinvested as a within to the stock instead of just taking the dividends into their cash position. Anyways, I'm derailing and, and being a choosy beggar, but it No, I'm not a choosy beggar. But anyways, Okay, done talking to them, and word vomit.   Michael: What a great point to make. Because if that, I don't want to go so far as to call it a mistake. But if you hadn't learned that lesson, at that point in time, you may have never known like, Oh, this is a thing I should be doing, or this is good or bad. So I think that's great. And probably one of the most inexpensive lessons you could learn. And so I you know, hat off to your grandma for teaching you two lessons for the price of one.   Tom: Yeah. And to bring this back to real estate investing. A great example of this is okay, you collect your rent from your property. And unless you're in a position where you're living off of that money, which I assume a lot of people are not, is to be long term greedy, and save that money that you're getting from your rent collected and roll it into buying a new property. reinvest the dividends, man reinvest the dividends? All right, Michael. Good. Go ahead. What was your initial entry into any type of investing?   Michael: Yeah, so very similar story for my 12th birthday. My dad got me a couple of shares of GMC stock. And so yeah, I mean, almost exactly similar to you, I would check the newspaper and look and see what the sticker price the ticket price was doing with it go up, but go down and chatting with my dad having conversations with him about Okay, what is this mean? And what is a stock? And how does it work at a very high level, because, you know, I'm only 12 years old, I didn't have the kind of comprehension that Robert Kiyosaki had when he was a youngster. And he writes about in his book, to really understand the financial world with all about the comings and goings of the stock market and real estate and all that kind of good stuff.   So very high level, a stock going up is good stock going down as bad. And you can buy more of this. And so throughout my childhood, I would often receive gifts of, you know, two shares, three shares of stock, Disney, kind of the the big companies that, you know, kind of blew up, we think about a blue chip company. And that was great, except you really got an understanding of Okay, well, I can take money that I earned either from a job or allowance or what have you invest it, and hopefully walk away at some point down the road with more money than I put into it.   And so that delayed gratification was instilled in me at a fairly young age and my dad had this awesome quote, you remember those like claw machines we could put in a quarter and you whatever you played it with the client to get the stuffed animal or the toy. My dad said it to my younger brother who asked to play one of these claw machines, dad can I have a quarter to go play this. And he says, Well, do you want to be the kid that plays the claw machine? Or do you want to be the kid that own stock in the claw machine making company? Oh my god, like, it's like, so simple and seemingly kind of trivial telling that to a kid. But when you can start thinking about it in that capacity, that really changes, you know, your trajectory and the way that you think about money and about investing as a whole.   So I just love that story. And we always joke about it in my family. Because Yeah, it's just it's it's a shift in the mindset from consumer to investor.   Tom: Do you want to get clawed or be the claw?   Michael: Or be the… Yeah, be the claw. I always think about Liar, Liar. The Claw! Yeah, that was kind of my first story. And I've since been investing pretty much that whole time, as well. So I never never looked back of it.   Tom: Love it.   Michael: Awesome. Real quick. Last thing I'll ask you, before we go, Tom, is Is there anything that you plan on teaching your son in his early days about investing? How do you plan to have those conversations or share with him some of the knowledge that you've acquired over the years?   Tom: I gotta make sure I tone it down, like, like,   Michael: Charlie, we're talking about cash on cash return?   Tom: Oh, yeah. Huge fan of some of the online like learning stuff has gotten so good, like, Khan Academy is, I remember when it first came out, and like where it's at now. I really enjoy it. And I think it'd be something fun that we do together by way that I interact with my son as he basically just do stuff that I like to do with him and just see, well, there are a lot of things that he likes but he's a one year old. So you know, his his English is pretty limited. But you know, his financial literacy is… I think we probably do all throw a bunch of stuff at them. Maybe give them some, some some stock. Look, have them look it up, I'm sure to be like, fun, like getting a position to get them a property or something to like, follow. But I mean, that's way down the road. No, at some point, yes.   Michael: One of the guys anyways, Brandon Turner over at bigger pockets, the day his daughter was born, bought her bought a property and put it on an 18 year note so that by the time she was 18, she would have this free and clear property that she could decide what to do with either take over managing it or sell it to go to college or what have you. So I always thought that was an interesting idea.   Something else that someone told me was that the day that their children are born, they open up a credit card in their name, and they're just coasting around it so that way they get to start building credit by the time they're 16 1820 whatever, they have an established line of credit or credit history rather, which I thought was very interesting.   Tom: That's great advice. I remember in high school getting a good gas card and that helped me so much get credit I mean, just having some silly little gas card like established an initial line and it made everything down the line so much easier to do because there was just some proof and what's interesting about real estate the longer that it and maybe it's just situational now that I have like kid but it's like so much about it is past that is like thought around like passed down inheritance and like talking about building wealth like oftentimes it's a it's kind of a family team effort from generation to generation. Both on the education as well as assets side.   Michael: Totally.   Alrighty everybody that was our episode. Thanks so much for listening. If you enjoyed it, please please please give us a rating and review whatever it is listen to your podcasts. Those help us out big time. We look forward to seeing on the next one.   Tom: Happy investing.

BGBS 048: Jeff Harry | Rediscover Your Play | See Where Your Curiosity Goes Jeff Harry is a positive psychology play speaker and founder of Rediscover Your Play, with a mission to work with businesses to address their deepest issues such as toxicity at work, creating an inclusive work environment, and dealing with office politics through the experience of play. Jeff explains that adults are limited by their expectation of results and calculations of the future. By encouraging play, Jeff crafts an environment where adults can live in the present moment, think outside the box, and in turn, take risks and tackle issues in a more resilient, positive way. Companies such as Google, Microsoft, Southwest Airlines, Adobe, the NFL, Amazon, and Facebook all depended on Jeff to help their staff infuse more play into their day. His work has been featured in the New York Times, SoulPancake, the SF Chronicle, and more. Beyond that, Jeff speaks internationally about how workplace issues can be solved through play and was selected by Engagedly as one of the Top 100 HR Influencers of 2020 for his organizational work on addressing toxicity in the workplace. Jeff encourages us to get bored, follow our curiosity, and remove the need to “should on ourselves” due to other people's expectations. By doing so, Jeff helps us look within to ask, “What gets you in a place where you can hear you and no one else?” In this episode, you'll learn... Inspired by the movie Big, Jeff wrote letters to toy companies from 5th grade through high school with all his toy ideas until one responded and said that if he wanted to go into toy design, mechanical engineering is the way Once Jeff got his degree, he finally got the job of his dreams in the toy industry. And he hated it. Jeff banded with 7 other "nerdy guys" to build the largest children's Lego STEM education company in the country, teaching about 100,000 kids a year. The Lego STEM company was so successful that companies began asking for adult workshops, so they started working from scratch to help companies play outside the box The first time Jeff wore his signature Lego bowtie, he was dared to wear it to a conference. The more he wore it, the more genuine people would be around him and more connections he would make In junior high, Jeff did everything he could to get into the "cool" pool party with his friends, only to lose his core of play in the process. It was then that he promised himself to never compromise who he truly was again According to a UCLA study, you will hear the word "no" 148,000 times by the time you are 18 years old Just do the things that feel good to you. You'll know when you're trying to "should" on yourself when it doesn't feel right Jeff's dad came to the US from St. Vincent as a doctor and his mom came from the Philippines to work as a nurse. They met in an operating room in Minnesota Jeff encourages us to ask our friends what value we bring to the friendship and when we seem most alive to begin defining a path for ourselves, rather than relying on what society deems as right or wrong Resources Rediscover Your Play Website Youtube: Jeff Harry Plays Instagram: @jeffharryplays Twitter: @jeffharryplays LinkedIn: Jeff Harry Medium: @jeffharryplays TikTok: @jeffharryplays Get Inspired How Do You Add Play To Grown-Up Life - Even Now - NY Times A Play Experiment To Remind You Who You Are - Medium How To Play Through These Uncertain Times - Medium Quotes [20:14] I remember as I crossed that threshold, I felt such a wave of relief and I was expecting next to be so happy. But instead, as soon as I passed through, I felt like I left myself back there. I remember...just feeling like the loneliest I had ever felt in my life up until that point...and I remember making a pact with myself that day: I am not going to compromise who I am just to be cool or to people-please. [28:04] It's not that you shouldn't dress up or you shouldn't put your best foot forward if that is you. Yo, do you. But if you feel like you're doing it just because you're trying to impress others, and you don't feel comfortable in that space, then why are you doing it? [33:06] There are moments when you're in a state of flow, where you're creating something and it's hitting on all cylinders, challenging intellectually, it's challenging you creatively, and you feel alive, right? Like you just feel so excited about it. And that is what I mean by play. And that is what I want to help people rediscover.  [36:00] Just get bored and see what comes up, because you have to actually quiet down everyone else's voice so you can start listening to that inner curiosity, that inner child, that's gonna then whisper something to you like “start that podcast” or “write that blog”. Podcast Transcript Jeff Harry 0:02 And often all of us getting out and it's like, you know, like 90210 with that cool walk and, you know, throw in the towel over my like shoulder and, you know, and just act and so like dope because I'm, I'm finally going to get accepted as soon as I walked through this party. And I remember we were like, 10 feet away and feeling excited. And then I see a friend of mine run and I think Jeremy and a bunch of other people, and they weren't being led into the party. And they happen to be black. And there was a scuffle as like, maybe seven feet away. And I remember someone saying to them, Bob, you get the fuck out of here. We are not letting any support. And man when I heard that I just froze. Marc Gutman 1:03 Podcasting from Boulder, Colorado. This is the Baby Got Backstory podcast. we dive into the story behind the story of today's most inspiring storytellers, creators and entrepreneurs. I like big backstories and I cannot lie. I am your host, Marc Gutman, Marc Gutman, and on today's episode of Baby got backstory we are playing. No, I'm not joking. And neither is today's guest who is super serious about play. Today we are talking with Jeff Harry. Jeff has built an entire business and life out of play. Jeff shows individuals and companies how to tap into their true selves to feel their happiest and most fulfilled ball by playing. Jeff has worked with Google, Microsoft, Southwest Airlines, Adobe, the NFL, Amazon, and Facebook, helping their staff to infuse more play into the day today. Hey, if you like and enjoy the show, please take a minute or two to rate and review us over Apple podcasts or Spotify, or the listening platform of your choice. These platforms use ratings as part of the algorithm that determines ratings on their charts, and ratings bring exposure which helps us to build an audience which then helps us to continue to produce this show. And if I may ask just one more favor. If you like the show, please recommend it to at least one other person. You may think well like it this week. That would make me happy. And who doesn't like a happy Marc Gutman? Jeff Harry is an international speaker who is presented at conferences such as inbound, South by Southwest and Australia's pause fest showing audiences how major issues in the workplace can be solved using play. Jeff was selected by bamboo HR and engaged Lee as one of the top 100 Hr influencers of 2024. His organizational development work around dealing with toxic people in the workplace is playworks work has most recently been featured in The New York Times article, how do we add more play to our grown up life. Even now, which we will link to in the show notes. He's also been featured on AJ plus SoulPancake, the San Francisco Chronicle and CNN. And as you'll hear in today's episode, while we spend most of our time pretending to be important, serious grownups, it's when we let go of that facade, and just play that the real magic happens. Fully embracing your own nerdy genius, whatever that is, gives you the power to make a difference and change lives. Jeff believes that we already have many of the answers we seek. And by simply unleashing our inner child, we can find our purpose and in turn, help to create a better world in this is his story. Today, I am talking to someone who does something that I don't believe I've ever had any experience with directly at least in my adult life, and we'll talk about that. I'm so just intrigued and excited to get into this conversation. I am here with Jeff Harry, who is a positivity psychology play speaker. So Jeff, like I'm gonna ask you right off the bat, what is a positivity psychology play speaker besides being a mouthful, Jeff Harry 4:53 Right? Um, knows. It's a great question. First, thanks for having me. I'm the best The way in which I described positive psychology in plays I, I combined positive psychology and the idea of player the concept of play, to work with businesses to address some of their like deepest issues like dealing with toxicity at work, how to create an inclusive work environment, how to deal with office politics bs. And we all do it through the mindset of positive psychology as well as the experience of play. Marc Gutman 5:27 Very good. And so, you know, a question I typically lead off episodes with is something to the effect of, Jeff, when you were a young boy, when you were eight years old, did you always want to have a job in play? But I can't really ask that because I'm assuming eight years old. Yes. That is exactly the job that you wanted. Jeff Harry 5:50 Yeah, so so and I love that you pick the number eight because I think that's when I saw the movie Big. And that was the catalyst for me. So I saw the movie big with Tom Hanks. And if you remember that movie, you know, he plays with toys for a living, he works for a toy company of all things. So you know, seeing the movie, I ran down to FAO Schwarz thinking if I just danced on the piano, a CEO would discover me and offer me a job. And that did not happen. So then I started writing toy companies in fifth grade on my word processor. That's how old I am. And I was spamming toy companies with letters before spamming was a thing, I would send like six letters at a time, that were like three or four pages long with all of my toy ideas, to any toy company that I could find the address to. And I just kept doing that all the way through high school until a company contacted me and was like, yeah, you need to stop sending these letters. And if you want to go into toy design, you should go into mechanical engineering, I did that which I probably should not have just listened to some random letter, but I did it. And then I went to school for it, graduated and then went into the toy industry. And I don't know if you've ever had a moment where you get what you want. But I got into the toy industry. And I hated it. Like there was no play, there was no high fives there was no toys. They might as well have been selling microwaves. And I was just like, What am I supposed to do with my life. And I was in New York and 911 just happen. So I was like questioning whether I should even be here. And I don't want to die in a cubicle. And I remember leaving New York and heading to the Bay Area, San Francisco Bay Area living in Oakland. And I remember finding a job where you can teach kids engineering with Lego. And it was only seven nerdy guys at this job. And I just hung out with him. And we helped grow the largest Lego STEM education company like in the country. And we all did it by just playing and making it up as we went along. Like we would pick cities because they were fun. We had no business plan. We pick fun people to hire. And we just weren't just making it up via play. And because we were doing so well. And we were teaching like 100,000 kids a year, Silicon Valley started recognizing us and was like, hey, do you run things for adults like team building events? And we were like, of course we do. Even though we did it. We didn't know we were doing we're just making it up. So we just say yes to anything. And then I realized as where was running a lot of these workshops for adults, they would talk about creativity and collaboration and connection. But they weren't playful environments. They weren't like creating a playful place where people could take risks, and quote unquote, think outside the box. So I was like, you're not tackling the big issues. So I created rediscover your play as a way to just like, yo, let's go right at those hard issues. But let's use play and positive psychology to do it. Marc Gutman 9:02 Wow, that thank you for sharing that you went from eight all the way to, through through now to now it's a time warp. And so we're gonna, we're gonna hold that we know where the story kind of leads. But I want to go back. I mean, you told me before we started recording that you're in Chicago with your family. And is that where you grew up? I mean, was your life like, like big was it with Josh Baskin, were you, you know, rooting for the Cubs? And? And, yeah, I know the movie. I know the movie. Well, you know, Jeff Harry 9:32 Well, I hated the cubs. I'm a White Sox fan, because I live in the south side, right? I live in the south suburbs of Chicago. And that's where I grew up. But yes, I am like, my dad is from the Caribbean. small island off the coast of Barbados called St. Vincent. Only 100,000 people. You know, I think he was the first doctor to make it in the US off his Island. And then my mom is from the Philippines and came here. You know, when I A lot of us nurses were going to Vietnam. And then they met in an operating room. My mom doesn't remember this. But they met an operating room because he was the attending physician in Minnesota, in Rochester, Minnesota at the Mayo Clinic, and she was the nurse on call. So that's just how like they got here. And then yeah, I grew up in a really predominantly white generic suburb, you know, that had Chili's and, you know, a Walmart and a bunch of other really boring places. Marc Gutman 10:32 So what was it about toys? I mean, it seems like that you were enamored for what you've shared with me with toys at a young age. I mean, you stayed with it, you kept hammering all these companies with your your desire to get in the industry, and you actually went and, and fulfilled that vision? And to answer your question, yes, I would say my life has been marked through our various chapters with getting what I wanted, and what I dreamed of only to realize my dream was way cooler than the reality. And they didn't match up and had to make a shift. So I feel you there. And I'd love to talk about that in a little bit. But kind of want to know, like, what about toys? Like, what was it about toys? And what kind of toys in particular were you drawn to? Jeff Harry 11:13 I would, I mean, I think I was more drawn to play but what I think I loved about some of the toys that I played with, you know, the GI Joes. And again, I love to do was I love to combine all of my board games together. Like Chutes and Ladders, Candyland, mousetrap, clue, monopoly, like all of them together, and I would set up this epic, you know, game for my sister and, and tying into like, what I now coin is my play values. The reason I love doing it, even though they hated playing that game, was that it was an experience for us. I love creating experiences for people. I love the creativity of it. And I love the connection. Like how do I build a memory from this? So like, that was the type of plays that I always wanted to do. So that kind of ties into even what I do now. But I think, you know, and maybe this is a perfect time to share my most embarrassing story from my teenage years. Um, is, where do I start? Yeah, it was seventh grade. I think it was seventh grade, where so much of what I do now is shaped by what happened in seventh grade. And, and I don't know if you remember, seventh grade was seventh grade. Good for you. I just want to just get an idea. Marc Gutman 12:33 It was a mixed bag. Jeff Harry 12:36 Right? Like most people don't like junior high, like they're just not enjoying junior high. And I remember sixth grade was like, super fun. It was playful. But I remember seventh grade. And I remember the first day of school. And all I wanted to do was play Foursquare, right? Because like Foursquare was like my game man. Like, you know, everyone's in there. You know, you compete, you get kicked out, and then you just get back in line. And I was so obsessed with Foursquare, that I remember walking down the hall, you know, to recess, or maybe it was lunch, and I was literally singing the song. I'm gonna play some Foursquare, gonna play some Foursquare. And I was so like, aim to get out there. And I remember going out first day recess, and like, nobody in seventh grade is playing. Like, no one's hanging out. And everyone was, was there before. So like, I remember running up to like, Matt, in, you know, Jimmy and just being like, yo, you want to play some Foursquare? And they're like, no. And they're all like hanging out just talking. Like, why is everyone talking? And then I remember Matt saying something to be like, hey, do you know that Ryan is dating Samantha? And you know, and mark is dating Julie? And I'm like, so do they want to play Foursquare? Like, I'm just trying to get an idea of like, Why no one's over there. And can we start playing right? And they're like, No, dude. Like, no, like, they're going out. And I remember being like that, what did he say? like Mark, Mark was going to first base with Julie. And I was like, What does that even mean? Like, you know, like, look over to the baseball field and like, No, dude, like they're kissing. That was like, I don't understand what's happening. Why is no one playing. And then I realized, like, a little bit later on, like, there was a new game that everyone was playing that I did not know which was being cool. And apparently there was a vote of like, Who's cool and who's not cool over the summer and, and there was no mail in ballots, so I never got a chance to chime in. So like the cool people had already been ranked, and I was like, really low on the totem pole, and I was like, This is wack. And I was like, Well, I'm just gonna keep going to play Foursquare. But every day we'll go out there. We know a buddy there. So Like this is frickin Bs, man. Um, and then I remember I was like, fine, I just want to belong, right? Fine. I won't play I just want to belong. So remember going up to, like Matt and being like, what do I need to do? Like, what do I need to do to be cool? He's like, you got to start, you know, like, daily. Um, how's that supposed to date? And he goes, Well, you know, you know, everyone, everyone that's cool has banks. And I was like, What are you talking about? It's like an all of the top ranked dudes literally had those like, bangs from you remember the 90s, where like, they flicked them out of their hair, right. And I'm a black, Filipino dude with a shoot fro at the time. And I'm like, I can't grow bangs. But I remember stealing my sister's Vidal Sassoon moves. And like putting all this mousse in my hair, and shoving it down to create this frozen bang, just so I could get accepted. And that moves would dry up by fifth period. And I didn't know that this is what happens. And when that happens, the bang turns from like a bang to like this raccoons. But that's just like coming out of my forehead. And I'm like, trying to talk to ladies like Hello, ladies. And they're like, oh, Grace, you know, and I'm like, this is just Bs, like, this being cool thing is BS. I hate it. But I needed to be accepted, right? So I constantly do all these things. And then I remember, late in the year, everyone was always being asked to go to parties. And I never got invited, right. And then there was this last party of the year. And it was like, the pool party of the century, for this junior high. And everyone that anyone's gonna be there. And I was like, Oh, can I go? And remember Matt being like, you know, it's invite only and I'm like, What is that even mean? So like, you have to get invited by someone that's already accepted, right? So I remember begging all these people, you know, can I come to the pool party with you? And they're like, now, now, like, you're not ranked high enough, or whatever. And they remember going up to Antonio, and Joey via Gomez, and being like, I go to the party, like, Can you bring me to the party. And they were like, maybe. And then I remember, basically being at their beck and call, you know, folding their triangle notes and handing them off to like their girlfriends and buying their lunches and doing whatever I could to, like, just get accepted by them. And then after two weeks, you know, I'm in the car with them going to the party, and I'm so amped, and like, like, I'm literally singing the same song of like, going on, go to the party, going into the party, go into the party, and I'm so like, excited. And then I remember as parking 20 feet from the party, and awesome, all of us getting out. And it's like, you know, like 90210 with that cool walk. And, you know, I'm throwing the towel over my like shoulder and, you know, and just acting so like dope because I'm, I'm finally going to get accepted as soon as I walked through this party. And I remember we were like, 10 feet away and feeling excited. And then I see a friend of mine run and I think Jeremy and a bunch of other people, and they weren't being led into the party. And they happen to be black. And there was a scuffle. As I'm like, maybe seven feet away. And I remember someone saying to them, like, fuck you get the fuck out of here. We are not letting any party. And man when I heard that, I just froze. Because the like, I'm black. Like, am I like, like, are they gonna let me in. And I just like, I felt as if like water had like, rushed up to my knees and just like, froze, and I couldn't move. And I'm like five feet away from like, the entrance. And remember Antonio, looking at me and being like, Yo, dude, like, come on. You know, it's no big deal. And I'm like, No, it is a big deal, dude, like they're gonna let you in, but they're not gonna let me and I don't even know where I am. I don't even know how to get home. And I remember getting up to the front. And, you know, the people that were blocking the party looked at Antonio and then looked at Joey, both were Latino and then looked at me, and they were like, is he with you? You know? Like, is he black? And Antonio's like, nice Latino. And I remember thinking like, Don't say anything, like don't say anything and you get it. You get in if you don't say anything. And I remember them just like nonchalantly, like, given a head nod of like, Alright, go ahead. And it was like nothing to them. But for me, it was like it was everything, like being accepted was everything. And I remember as I crossed that threshold, like, I felt such a first a wave of relief. And I was expecting next to be like, so happy. But instead, as soon as I pass through, I felt like I left myself back there. And I remember, there were like, 15 people at the party, and everyone's talking. And it was just so silent for me. And I felt such shame and guilt. And it was this pool party. And I remember like, going into the pool, because I wanted to play and no one's playing. And I remember just sinking down in there. And just feeling like the loneliest I had ever felt in my life up until that point. And I was like, is this it, like, Did I give it all up for this, and I remember making a pact with myself, like that day, like, I am not going to like compromise who I am, just to be cool, or to people, please. And I remember freshman year, then going into my basement, and making a weird games that I would play by myself just hanging out there. And after a while, some of my friends heard, like, you know, I was just hanging out in my basement, and it was a place where you don't get judged, and you can, you don't have to be cool there. And they would start coming over. And we would just make up ridiculous games. And I just created like, a safe space for us to just be like, our nerdy selves. Um, and what's ironic is like, that's what I do. Now, I do the exact same thing. But for adults, um, but it all stemmed from that experience. Marc Gutman 21:52 Wow. And thank you for sharing that and getting, you know, authentic and, and real on that, on that relive of that story. Jeff, like, why did you call that? Why do you call that your most embarrassing story? Like, I didn't hear embarrassment and that story? Jeff Harry 22:10 Well, I think I was embarrassed. I was embarrassed multiple times, I was embarrassed first, to be who I am, right. And then I was embarrassed. When I finally became, quote, unquote, cool, because I was embarrassed with who I became. Right? So like, I wasn't happy in either of those places. So it finally came down to me being like, alone, that's sitting in my basement, where I that embarrassment, like left me because I wasn't trying to please someone else. I, you know, wasn't ashamed of myself anymore. And I could actually just be my nerdy mate. Marc Gutman 22:53 And so what did you get from play back then? And how does that relate to how I play? How do we see and interact with play today? Jeff Harry 23:04 Yeah, so I define play as any joyful act, where you're fully present in the moment where there really is no purpose to the play, you know, you are letting go of results. And you don't have an anxiety about the future, you don't have any like regrets about the past, you were just fully in the moment, almost like in a state of flow, as a lot of adults like to refer to play as, and there's something powerful there. Because when you think of your best memories, their play moments, there are moments when you're playing, you know, they're not when you're documenting stuff on Instagram, um, and the opposite of play is depression, as Dr. Stuart Brown says, and if you think of like the world that doesn't have play, it is a world that doesn't have innovation, it doesn't have creativity, it doesn't have humor. And it's just like, especially during these uncertain times, especially during COVID times, like, so many people are. So many adults are fixated on results all the time, which really is like I see results and expectations is like the thief of joy. And because they're so fixated on what 2020 was supposed to be so many people were disappointed with twit 2020 was or what it is. And the more resilient you are, the more play oriented you are, the more you're able to roll with it. You know, the more you're able to be like, okay, that didn't happen, but that's not a big deal. I can figure this out, right? And embracing that playful, childlike spirit is what is going to help us actually get through the rest of 2020. Marc Gutman 24:44 So Jeff, I noticed and thank you for talking about play there. I noticed that both today you came to the interview, wearing a bow tie that almost looks like bit like a spinner. And in your headshot you have it like Tell me about that. What is that? Jeff Harry 25:00 So what this is zero clip it owns as you can see it, it's a Lego bow tie. And I used to wear it when I was working for that educational Lego organization. But I started wearing it as an experiment. Almost a dare from my colleague, Lisa at the time, was like, yeah, Gary to wear that at a conference. And I was like, Yeah, I am gonna wear it at a conference. And I remember wearing it because I felt like everyone at a con at conferences, has a facade, you know, like a professional veneer of like, this is who I am, what do I do for a living bla bla bla, you know, I'm not sure I'm a serious adult. So I was like, trying to mock that and being like, well, I'm gonna wear a costume to it, my costumes gonna be this stupid Lego bow, tie my clip it on to anything, t shirts, sweaters, whatever, it doesn't really matter. But that's going to be how I dress up. And I remember the conferences being so much more enjoyable. Because for some weird reason, because I'm wearing this nerdy artifact, and I would attract other nerdy people, and they didn't feel like they had to be their professional selves around me. And we can talk about nerdy things like Game of Thrones and Avengers, and why they love the Lego and anything else, you know. And I was just like, Oh, dude, I should just wear this all the time. And the more I wore it, like on airplanes and other places, just I, I realized, like, I was able to connect more with people, because then they would be willing to share stories about themselves, because they felt more comfortable being around me, because they realized I was playing. So why can they not just also play? Marc Gutman 26:35 Yeah, what's wrong with being professional being an adult? And I sense in your value system, that that is something that you like, you're like, hey, that that's, that's the wrong way to be. Jeff Harry 26:45 I don't know if it's right or wrong, because I don't like to think of things as right or wrong, you know, it's just like, Hey, you do you boo, boo, you know, like, like, but What I don't like is being inauthentic. And I don't like that we are always told how we're supposed to show up. Like, this is the right way to show up. This is the wrong way to show up. You shouldn't do this, you should not do that. You know, like we've been, you know, I say this a lot in a lot of interviews is, you know, the reason why a lot of adults don't play is because of 148,000. Nose, like, there's been studies that found that we hear the word no 148,000 times by the time, we're 18 years of age. On top of that, we get shut down all the time by adults and our parents and everyone else. And then we go to school where they tell you to ask they have you asked for permission, you have to raise your hand all the time. And then you look at media and social media that's always telling you you're not enough. So all of that is happening. And then anytime you want to be yourself, you're told you're being Miss too mischievious or being too much, that it's such a rebellious act for us to just be ourselves to just be our weird, nerdy self. So when I when I refer to as professional, it's not that like you shouldn't dress up, you shouldn't like should put your best foot forward. If that is you. Yo, do you. But if you feel like you're doing it just because you're trying to impress others, and you don't feel comfortable in that space, then why are you doing it? like who are you trying to impress? And and by trying to impress people that you might not care about in like a year? Like, how's that working out for you? Does that bring you happiness? And I've found that it has Marc Gutman 28:36 This episode brought to you by Wildstory. Wait, isn't that your company? It is. And without the generous support of Wildstory, this show would not be possible. A brand isn't a logo or a tagline, or even your product. A brand is a person's gut feeling about a product service or company. It's what people say about you when you're not in the room. Wildstory helps progressive founders and savvy marketers build purpose driven brands that connect their business goals with the customers they want to serve. So that both the business and the customer needs are met. This results in crazy, happy, loyal customers that purchase again and again. And this is great for business. If that sounds like something you and your team might want to learn more about, reach out @ www.wildstory.com and we'd be happy to tell you more. Now back to our show. And so tell me a little bit about this idea of play. I mean, I feel like it's one of those words that you can say it and I'm not sure that the schema that the the image that everybody has in their head always matches you know, and I think that we that might be one of the challenges and I feel like that happens like around the word story. I was building a business For a long time around the word story, and you know, that can mean different things, you know, 10 people come up and say, I want you to help me tell my story. And that can mean 10 different things. And you know, it's like, it's just like this word that we all think we know. But in reality, we haven't all agreed on, kind of like when I say horse, and we're all like, like, I'm like, right? Okay, I get that. So what is play? If you could dive into it a little bit? Like, how do we do it? And like, why is it so difficult? Like, what why are we challenged in this thing called play, which seemingly should be natural and easy? Jeff Harry 30:34 Well, part of the reason part of it is the 148,000 nose, and part of it is being told that we're supposed to show up to the world a certain way, you know, that they're adults are very results focused. Because we really want to always be telegraphing what's going to happen next, so we don't get disappointed. And that actually puts us in a really bad situation where we can suffer from depression and anxiety, because we're trying to control everything. And play is much more resilient. It's like it's purposeless. And you know, you're at play, because everyone's play is different. Like I said earlier, it's like any joyful act, where you're fully present in the moment. So when you're at play, you forget about time, like, what are the things you do where you forget about time, where you're just so fully involved, that you're like, oh, man, I didn't even realize I was doing that, you know, that could be this podcast, it could be making videos, it could be writing, it could be, you know, whatever. The thing is, that just brings you a lot of joy and satisfaction. And I think a lot of times people think, well, I you know, I don't play you know, I stopped playing. There was a moment when I went to the playground in the night and never went back to the playground. And I challenged that I remember I was coaching someone once though, was a lawyer. And she was like, Yeah, I don't play. And I was like, Well, what do you do? Like, what do you do in law, and she's like, Oh, I help people that hate each other to come to an agreement. And I'm like, that could be your play. Like, if you really enjoy it, and you like the puzzle, problem-solving part of it, like explore that, right? But I think, let me know, you felt this way with story. But when I would mention play to a lot of companies, they would recoil. They'd be like, Oh, gross, like I don't, we don't need to play, we need results. We need profitability, we need blah, blah. But when you reference it as flow, right, which is also a state of play. And you know, Dr. Chick said, me, Hi, this positive psychologist has this flowchart, literally called a flowchart where the state of flow is when the difficulty of the task meets your skill level perfectly, you know, and when the difficulty of the task is really high, but you don't have a lot of skill, you have a lot of anxiety, like when you first start a job, and you're like, Oh, my gosh, I don't know what I'm doing. But when you have a lot of skill, and the task isn't that hard, then you're bored, like when you've been at a job for way too long, or you've been binge-watching Netflix for way too long, and it's not bringing you joy anymore. But there are moments when you're in a state of flow, where you're creating something and you're like, it's hitting on all cylinders, you know, challenging intellectually, it's challenging you creatively, and you feel alive, right? Like you just feel so like excited about it. And that is what I mean by play. And that is what I want to help people rediscover. Marc Gutman 33:33 Yeah, and I love that idea. I mean, I can totally relate and resonate with this idea that we're super results focused and it always has to have an outcome and I think that was always kind of the trouble when we were talking story a lot of times it was like, What tangible result will this will this have and I can't promise you always know a lot of things are like, you know, in that in that space, where it's like talking about you're going to connect better you're gonna relate better you're going to all these different things to help people locate themselves. I think now people are seeing it more clearly that a brand story is an asset and something that drives revenue but but prior to that, it was it was challenging, and I think it also again, you know, using just that qualifier, brandstory helps a little bit when talking about it. But you know, when I think about this idea of play, like how, how do we do it like give me give me an example of what you know, you might do and you know, what kind of team that you might work with in the business world, if you will, and how you let them other than saying go play, like, like, how does it like how does it work? Jeff Harry 34:42 Right? So when I'm when I'm trying to answer the question for individuals is different from organizations. Alright, so when I'm answering for individuals, we first have to start with the idea of soothing or calming, so my play mentor Gwen Gordon talks about how You can't play until you're calm, or until you've soothed yourself in some way, if you have a lot of anxiety, you know, or anger or frustration or something like that you can't really play. And she talks about how you learn how to soothe and calm yourself from the person that that took care of you the most, you're the person that nurtured you the most. So you might be adopting a lot of the anxiety that they had, and a lot of that trauma. So you first have to identify how do I calm and soothe myself, if you think of when you have your best ideas, it's like when you're in the shower, or when you're walking, or when in some state where you're like, Oh, this just feels really nice. And then ideas just start popping up. So identify for that for yourself, how do you soothe and calm yourself. And then after that, then I challenge people to get bored, which is ironic as a played person, but it's just like, it's time to get bored, which means you got to shut out all of that noise. So hop off your social media for a couple hours, hop off binge watching Netflix for a few hours, and just get bored, like, and see what comes up, because you have to actually quiet down everyone else's voice. So you can start listening to like that inner curiosity, that inner child, that's gonna then whisper something to you, like start type podcast, you know, write that blog, like, reach out to that person you've always wanted to reach out to, but you're super scared. Like, it doesn't even matter what the thing is, as long as you're following that curiosity, because once you follow that, it leads to something else, which leads to something else, which leads to something else, like just even thinking about your podcast, when you first started it to now where it is so many, you know, so many, you know, years later, like, look at how it just is evolved, right? And even Steve Jobs talks about this, and I don't like I was quoting that guy, because he was super mean to a lot of people. But you know, it's never linear on the way back, right? So why are we trying to plan everything out in a linear fashion going forward? When it's just like this jagged craziness? You know, when you look backwards? Like, why are we not following our curiosity more, right? As for like, at companies, it really depends on what their pain point is, if they're dealing with toxic people at work, you know, my friend, Gary ware, and I put them through experiential play workshops, where they try to have a hard conversation with that toxic person, like they do it over and over again. Because a lot of times, we don't even know how to practice having hard conversations, just like we don't know how to practice telling our own story. We don't have practice having like having a difficult crucial conversation with someone, right? Like, or dealing with our inner critic, we don't know how to how to dress that mean voice in her head. So we practice that in the workshop, and actually almost embody that inner critic, and then address it directly. Mine is garga Mel, and then I'm like, Thank you, garga. Mel, for your super rude comments. I don't need them right now. I appreciate it. But you need to sit in the back of the car. I'm driving right now. So like, I put them through a lot of experiential play, and create a safe space so they can kind of like start to figure out who am I and how do I want to show up for work? Marc Gutman 38:13 Yeah, and maybe I'm a little bit confused. Because like, when you were using that example of having a crucial conversation. That didn't sound like play to me, that sounded like kind of like sounded like tough. That sounded like work. So maybe it was kind of like back it up a little bit. And like, explain to me like how how this play thing kind of actually works? And people people experience it in order to move forward in? Jeff Harry 38:38 Yeah, sure. Sure. So in the in, I'll go through the dealing with toxic people workshop, right. So when we when people first arrived to the workshop, we are like, you know, people are people are pissed. Some people are angry, like I've seen, like, we did it in Australia. And, you know, people were, you know, in tears at one point, and they were laughing at one point, because at the end of the day, what a lot of people bonded on was the fact that they weren't alone. Right? Like, just in regards to toxic people. I think it costs like $223 billion in the last five years for Fortune 500 companies, of people just leaving because someone's super toxic. So when they first walk into the room, you know, we go, Hey, we're gonna be you know, messing around, we're gonna be playing a lot. So what we want you to do right now is we want you to envision that inner a hole, that inner toxic person, and we want you to embody that person and we want you to interact with each other as that person as that, as I refer to Chad, you know, and people start doing it and they see how absurd it is, as they're saying it to each other and moving around the room. But they're starting to like feel Oh, and then we ask them afterwards. What was it like to be that ale? What was it like to be that toxic person? some people love it. Other people absolutely hate it. And then we run them through a lot of other things. Role Playing where they either are that person, or they're talking to that person. And, and it's a lot of roleplay. And a lot of times, at first, it is hard. And things can be hard. And they can also be playful. And sometimes they're not always fun at the time. But they're, we're diving into something much more deep rooted. And by practicing and being like, oh, man, you know, going off to Chad, you know, at work and being like, hey, Chad, when you're at that meeting, and you cut off, Samantha, um, you not only did you did it feel really rude for her. So she didn't feel like sharing. But it also communicated to all of us that you didn't want to hear what we had to say, you know, and you practice saying that, because you Chad might not know that they're a toxic person, and you're practicing having that conversation. And we do it multiple times where it feels a little awkward, you start to get comfortable with it. And then you have the bravery potentially, to go back out there and actually have a real conversation with your chat, right. And that's what we're trying to do is a lot of times, it's not always like, Oh, this is gonna be fun and joyful, but it's just like, let's get to serious issues. But let's do it in a role-playing way, where you actually embody what it feels like. So you don't, so it's not as bad as you think it's going to be because I think a lot of times we build it up in our head that this is gonna be really hard. And then you try it and you realize it's not that hard. Marc Gutman 41:29 Poor Chad, always has to be Chad. Always has to be Chad. Chad, if you're out there, I believe in you, man. I know you're a good guy at heart. Like don't don't listen to what Jeff is saying. So I love this idea of listening to your curiosity, like like following that, how do you know that that little voice you hear? Is curiosity versus something else? How do you know it's not a gremlin? How do you know it's not? You know, that little voice that's telling you, you know, who you should be? Like, how do you know that's the right little voice to listen to? I feel like we have all these like little little voices in us, right? That come up, Jeff Harry 42:09 Right? There's so many voices, right. And I can dive in the whole inner critic stuff in a moment if you want. But I'm someone I was at a winery once and someone's and I was like, you know, I don't know anything about wine. And the wine guy was like, you know, if you drink the wine, you like it, you keep drinking it, if you don't like it, you stop drinking again. And that's really the same thing with curiosity. You know, if you follow this curious thing, and it's just like, Hey, you know, make this video and you and you kind of like it and you're like, Oh, that's kind of fun. I think I'm gonna continue to do that. And if you don't like it, then you're like, Ah, I'm not interested anymore. You know. And that's kind of how kids are, when they're at the playground, they go play something with someone, they don't even introduce themselves formally, they just start playing. And then when they're done playing tag, then they're like, Yeah, I don't want to play anymore. And it's the exact same way. Just do the things that feel good, that feel good to you. You know, you'll know what that it's, it's not you and that you're trying to should on yourself, when it just doesn't feel right. When in just feel like when you can ask yourself, who am I trying to please right now? And then you're like, Oh, I'm trying to please my boss, sir. Oh, I'm trying to please, this friend of mine, you know, or I'm trying to please somebody, instead of trying to focus on what I want and what my needs are. So that's how I would be able to tell people how to decipher it. Marc Gutman 43:33 Yeah, and I think there's this thing, like, you know, and like that you brought up the podcast at one point as an example. Because Yeah, I mean, that is like, kind of, for me, the right example of curiosity, and following my curiosity and play, and that it was an experiment, I didn't really know where it was going to go. And, and that gave me a lot of freedom. You know, sometimes I would think, though, that by not planting my flag by not declaring, I'm going to make this a big thing. It also kind of gave me like, one foot in and one foot out, you know, it kind of gave me this, like, defensibility. And I think, you know, when I heard you talk, it's like, yeah, like, even when I think about and put myself in this in this situation, it's like, yeah, I'm gonna make that video, but really, I'm doing it because I want to put it on YouTube. And I want people to like me, and you know, I want some sort of, to your point result and the problem being and YouTube's a great example, I love I love shooting videos. I, I love the idea of being a YouTube, or, but I'm not, right, like, I mean, it was really hard for me to, like, accept that, like, I don't like to edit. And you know, YouTube's just not a channel where I can show up regularly and create content even though I do put some stuff up there from time to time. But it was really hard for me it's really hard for me to kind of like admit that it was hard for me to say, look at this as like, hey, it's a cool experiment or it's a cool frame of play that opened up a door or that's like this point in my journey that's now pivoting to someplace else. You know, I'm really personally struggled with this like, you know, am I Am I curious? Or am I wishy washy? And so like, how do you, you know, respond to people that struggle with that, like, is this curiosity? And is to your point? Is this just the way it's nonlinear? And it should be or am I just like, all over the place, and I gotta, like, be a little more, you know, have a little bit more direction. Jeff Harry 45:19 Um, I don't know when I hear the wishy washy and this is just my take on it, but it's just like, I hear this, like a should voice in that, right? Like, maybe you are wishy washy, sometimes. Maybe you are curious, sometimes, like, Who knows? Right? Like, you'll you'll figure it out by just experimenting more like I, if this is interesting, I make a lot of tic Tock videos, right? Like, I'm really fascinated by that app. Because there's a lot of play in there. There's a lot of people that are not taking them seriously in it. But even I, you know, we'll make a video, put it out there. And then like, Man, that was super fun to make. And then there's a part of me that goes back and just like, how many views how many views that again, Oh, my gosh, I didn't get that many views. And then I get like, there's a part of me that's like, it's super disappointed. But I remember as I was mad as I make more content, and I'm just putting it out there. And I didn't let go of it. Because like, it doesn't really matter whether it's popular or not popular, because I've had things that have gotten blown up and like 40,000 people watch it. And I'm like, Man, that's not even something I liked. I didn't even like as much making that video that video was like, man, how can be wrong like this other video. And then I realized like, that the arts, like people's opinion of your art or your creation, almost is none of your business. Which is ironic, right? It's just like, just create the stuff and put it out there, Jeff. And when I do that, then it's just so much more fun. Because I have to keep reminding myself, why am Why did I start making these in the first place? Oh, because I just enjoyed the creation, right? And then like a month dolla, like you put it out there and then it gets swept away. Like you you work on this design for so long. And then the wind blows it away. Because it was never about you. It was about just the creative process. And knowing when I make a fun TikTok video to start my day, if it Prime's my day to see everything in a very playful way. And then my friend Deseret told me this, which I really loved. Where, where when something good happens at the beginning of my day, ask yourself how can it get any better than this? Like, how can this situation get any better than this? with curiosity? And when I start my day with a tick tock video, and I'll just describe today, right? Like, you know, I started my day I made this video. Oh, this is awesome. How can it get any better than this? Oh, sweet. I have this really cool podcast with these people from England. How can it get any better than this? Now I'm talking to you on your podcasts? How can it get any better than this? I get to see my girlfriend later on. How can I get him better than this? And I'm positively stacking and priming myself to look for positive patterns throughout the day. And then that makes a good day. But usually when someone focuses on having a bad day, it's because they're focusing on one moment in time. And thoughts usually lasts between nine seconds and 90 seconds. So they're just running that bad moment in their head over and over and over again. And then looking for other bad moments. But you can get out of that by simply being curious and asking yourself the right questions. Marc Gutman 48:26 I want to be clear that after this podcast, it gets no better than this. Yeah. This is it. Jeff like this is like just I mean, I know you're you're curious, but like this is the little voice inside of you telling you. No, but it doesn't it doesn't this is this Jeff Harry 48:41 The sultry Gutman voice is the best thing I'm gonna get today. Marc Gutman 48:45 Well just enjoy it. Just enjoy it and know I mean, sometimes it knows to know it's this is as good as it gets. So, Jeff, how is it addition to being curious how else can we flex this play muscle? And like how do we know we're doing it? Right? Like how do we know we're... Jeff Harry 49:03 There is no right. So it's it's letting go of the idea of right and wrong. Because like during COVID times, and I put this out so much like nobody knows what they're doing. No one ever has ever known what they're doing. They're just making it up as they go along. And then and then people will make like webinars or courses that are like, this is what you should do. And you should do it this way. And maybe that will work. Maybe it won't maybe p90x is not going to get you on fit. You know, it's it's like it's just one way and it's their way. But you have your own way, right? And listening to so many people preaching about what we should have done or what we should do during the pandemic like this is how you should start your business. This is how you should pivot during the pandemic. And I'm like, wait, were you around in 1918 I'm just trying to get an idea of who was around running a business in 1918 during the last pandemic Because if you weren't, then shut up, like, like, stop acting like you know what you're talking about? Because none of us do. We're all simply making it up as we go along, right. But you know, a play experiment that I put out to a lot of people that I really enjoy doing with a lot of my clients is, you know, try this right? Reach out to your friends, like maybe three or four of them, and ask them these two questions. I'm like, What value do I bring to your life? Because I think a lot of people don't know why people are friends with them. Like, I don't know, what do I do for you? Why are we friends? Why don't you continue to hang out with me, which is really important to hear. Because a lot of times you don't know what you do for people, and you get to hear all that love back. So what value do I bring to your life? And then second, I asked them, like, whenever you see me most alive, or another way to ask it is like, when have you seen the most playful, most joyful, most present, you know, most happy. And they'll remind you and be like, man, when you were traveling, you felt that way. Or man, when you were like making that podcast, or when you make your videos, you seem so happy. And it's an and listening to multiple different people's perspectives on it and writing all that down. And looking at that, and being curious about what's on the page. Because all your friends are going to tell you totally different things, you'll start to see patterns and be like, Oh, man, that is what I'm most alive. Oh, man. That is the value I bring to people's lives. I never even realized that. And then follow that just follow that guideposts and see where that takes you. And I'm telling you, it's gonna take you to a really cool dope ass place. Marc Gutman 51:47 Yeah, I know, there's so much gold and nuggets in there. And all I can think of is that perhaps p90x and muscle confusion isn't going to work for me. Like I thought that worked for everybody. You know, I thought like I thought like, I mean, I've never done it. But like, I figured that, like, if I did it, I would be ripped in like Beachbody. And now like maybe like, you know, there's a reason I'm not doing that. Because it's not for everybody. It's not for my Thank you, Jeff Harry, you just you just let the p90x monkey off my back. Jeff Harry 52:17 Right. And let me remind me reminds me of something else that I talked about a lot, right, which is affluent deadness, right. So I know, a lot of millionaires like I know a lot of people that you would consider successful, you know, whether like famous or whatever the thing is, and a lot of them are not that happy. Like, I know people that have enough money, they could travel the world 10 times over, they can buy whatever they want. And they have a deadness to them. Not everyone, but a lot of people that are in this Echelon that we and many people are striving for. And they're either worried about losing all their money, or they're comparing themselves to somebody else. So they're like, Oh, I'm not as I don't, I don't have as many riches or I'm not as famous, or I don't have as many followers as this other person. Right? Or they're just straight, like, bored. But not in the curious, bored, but bored in the sense of like, Oh, I thought it was supposed to be more fun when I got here. And then they post on Instagram, that they're like, living these amazing lives, and everyone should be like them, but when in the background, you know, it's coming from a place of insecurity. So they're selling this lie of like how amazing this life is, with all this effluence when they're not happy, and then there's always people striving to get there only to get disappointed when they get there as well. So why are we pitching this as the successful right way to do it? Like it's just all bs to me. And instead, instead of being affluent, like, like, affluent, you know, monetarily. Why can't you be affluent, like socially or in an impactful way, or able to like build huge, like, really real connections are able to share your story in a way that's compelling that other people want to share? Because that that is like makes you alive? That is the type of like affluence I would want to reach out to one where you feel most alive and you feel most like yourself. Marc Gutman 54:24 So what if we have trouble getting bored? You know, like, I think of myself, I'm like, restless, I'm anxious. Like, I don't know if like just walking away from my phone and sitting in a park is always gonna do it for me, like, how do we get more bored? Jeff Harry 54:37 That's a good question. And the reason why I say bored is because if you think about when you were a kid, your best ideas came when you were bored, right? but also your most dangerous ideas came when you were bored. Right? So I think it and bored can also be referred to as calm, right? So it could be something as simple as like what we said earlier, like taking a shower. You have a ton of ideas when you take a shower, do a have a bubble bath, or go on a walk or you know, or you know, sometimes I do brainstorming sessions with my friend Lauren. But we do it over mimosas and then come up with a bunch of crazy ideas that way. You know, I've told people, you know, to do a play, experiment with their friends, where they get them all on zoom. And you're like, you know what, I'm not playing enough. And then we all you know, have a bunch of Moses, and we just start brainstorming all these ways in which we use the play as friends. And what we can do now in these COVID times, right, like, I was, I was coaching someone that was like, well, I love to travel, and I can't travel right now. And we were like, Well, then let's play with it. Let's play with the idea of like, how can you travel? What is it that you loved about travel? and she goes, I love meeting new people. I love meeting new people from other countries. I love those conversations. So she started looking for all of these nomadic networks and camp indies and all these travel places. And then found all these other people that also love to travel but live in other countries. And now she has all these new relationships with people. And she feels like traveling. And by just simply hanging out with them and has places to stay when she can fly again. That's all by her getting a little bored, a little calm and then being like, oh, let me follow this curiosity and see where it takes me. So like, that's where I would challenge people to just be like, again, you don't have to do it the right way. But just what comes what suits you? What, what what gets you in a place where you can hear you, and no one else. Marc Gutman 56:43 Hear you, And no one else. I like that. So Jeff, is we come to the end of our time here. Thank you so much. We'll make sure to link to everything. Jeff Harry in the show notes. While you were talking. I was looking at your Tick Tock. Yes. There's a lot of play there. Jeff Harry plays on Tick tock, and probably all other handles, but we'll make sure to get those linked appropriately. In the shownotes. Jeff, when you think back to that awkward eight year old boy and maybe that teenager with the bangs that were plastered against his face, or even that that boy that had to give up a sense of himself and go into that party just to be included? If you ran into that, that version of yourself today, what do you think that younger version would say? Jeff Harry 57:34 Would say to me? Marc Gutman 57:35 I'm sorry, you say if he saw you today? Like what would he think? Jeff Harry 57:40 He'd be like, that's badass dude. He'd be like, Oh, I don't need to try? Like, Oh, it was like, I had all the answers the whole time? Like, ah, wow, that that takes the load off me. Let me put down the moose. You know, like, let me let me stop word the zeek ever reaches in jerboas. Because I realized like, Oh, I don't need to actually try so hard. You know, like, I feel. I feel there's such pressure to try so hard to be some perfect version of yourself. When like, you have all the answers you need are ready. And you just really need to play enough in order to figure them out. Marc Gutman 58:33 And that is Jeff Harry. Positivity psychology play speaker. Yep, it's still a mouthful. I'm all about the play. And Jeff really got me thinking about this idea of where our best memories come from. And I agree. My best memories are when I'm in a state of play, when I'm not looking for any particular result. And it's long been a wild story core value that's posted, read on our website. Play for a living, followed by the words. The world of business is a much better place with humor, smiles and belly-aching laughter. we approach our jobs in mission with a sense of playful humor. It's okay to laugh. It's okay to poke fun at yourself. If you can't poke fun at yourself, poke fun at us. We can take it with a smile. A big thank you to Jeff Harry. stay curious, keep playing. get bored. Sounds like a recipe for success to me. Well, that's the show. Until next time, make sure to visit our website www.wildstory.com where you can subscribe to the show in iTunes, Stitcher or via RSS so you'll never miss an episode. A lot big stories and I cannot lie. You other storytellers can deny.

In this episode we chat with Coach Chad Carson with coachcarson.com about his journey to financial freedom, real estate partnerships, common challenges for investors and Chad's thoughts of the future of real estate.    --- Transcript   Michael: Hey everybody. Welcome to another episode of The Remote Real Estate Investor. I'm Michael Albaum and today I'm joined by,   Tom: Tom Schneider.   Michael: And today we are going to be having a really, really, really fun episode with author, teacher Chad Carson with CoachCarson.com . So Chad is gonna be talking to us about all things real estate, his story, how he got started, and now he's been a full time investor since his college graduation. All right, let's jump into it.   Theme Song   Michael: Chad, thank you so much for taking the time today. Really appreciate you being here with us.   Chad: Yeah, thanks, Michael. Thanks, Tom. Really great to be here as well.   Michael: And so tell all of our listeners whereabouts in the country are you located.   Chad So I live in Clemson, South Carolina. And probably our claim to fame is the university right next door. It's a tiny little town. But Clemson University's here the football team. And so I went to school here and then stuck around afterwards and still live here. And it's really right next to the foothills of the Appalachian Mountains, lots of hiking, lots outdoors, lakes. So just a good good place to live and raise a family and invest in real estate as well.   Michael: Awesome. And we were just chatting before we started recording here that you got some rain from this last weather system. But everything is all good. Everything is sounded dry.   Chad: As far as I know. Yeah. No emergency text, you know, you guys are about long distance investing and passive investing. You know, most of the time, I don't hear anything from the property managers. They handle it. But now it's every once in a while you do get some emergency text.   Michael: So far, so good deal. Awesome. So I know you I think Tom knows you pipe in bigger pockets. It's kind of, you know, you're a big hero of mine for what you've done and what you've written. And we'll get into that in a little bit. But we'd love to get a little bit of your background and your story to start things off here.   Chad: Sure. Yeah. Well, I love bigger pockets as well. And what when I first started there, it was 2003. And I graduated from college. And I was a I was a biology major in college, I played football. So I kind of was just, you know, like anybody else when they're becoming an adult trying to figure out what's what's next, what am I going to do with my life. And I was fortunate enough that my dad had rental properties. And I used to like growing up, he would drop me off at a rental property and that he had bought at a foreclosure sale in the middle of the summer in Georgia.   And it'll be hot in the junk everywhere and an old refrigerator and he's alright, Chad, I'll be back in a few hours cleaning that frigerator out. They had old, you know, like deer meat or something. I'm sure it sounds like I hate this business. Who would want to do real estate. So low Behold, I graduated from college, I thought why don't I just give this real estate thing a shot for a year or two. And then I'll go back to the real world after that. And 20 years, 18 years later, I'm still still doing that little side hobby of real estate investing.   Michael: How great is it? It's so funny how the lens in which we learn about something or see something tends to overshadow you know, somebody of the other facts, right? Because we hear all the time Oh, I don't want to be a landlord. I don't wanna go fix toilets in the middle of the night. Or it is just you know, I don't want to go clean out refrigerators.   Chad: Yes, exactly. Yeah, my brother and I were ungrateful little little guys that were complaining about that. But it was really good. It was a good learning experience to I think you all come in a side lesson, but cleaning the floors of the store or cleaning out the frigerator of your landlord. I mean, you don't want to do that forever. But it's really a good learning experience to see the basics of the dirty work of what has to be done.   Michael: Absolutely. And so we're all your dad's rentals local to where you guys lit.   Chad: He was in Newnan, Georgia still is he has rental properties there and he and my mom have retired and live off a rental income now. And so yeah, that was all kind of local local rentals. And then he's actually now lives in another state. So you know, it's evolved into a long distance rental arrangement for him as well.   Michael: Right on and so after you graduated college and started to do your real estate side hustle, I mean, how did you get Into it full time was it was always part time or was it always full time?   Chad: It was actually full time for me Luckily, I didn't need a lot of money to live right after college you know, still in the the ramen noodle stage, living and spare bedrooms of friends houses and worst case living in my camera, a Toyota Camry or a 10 or something, you know, so I was I was in that stage of life where I was really low cost no family to support it. So I just jumped in. And rather than being an investor, I was really more accurately an entrepreneur, who is just trying to find good deals, we would flip them we would either typically when I my first year to have a business partner, we've worked together the whole time, we would find deals for other people and just kind of pass them on for a small fee is what's called a wholesaler.   So that was how we learned the business, cut our teeth. And then but as we learned to do that, we picked up that skill of finding good deals, it was kind of a natural step to start borrowing our own money from private investors from a couple local banks. And so we started flipping some houses where we fixed them up and flipping, flip them. And then after another A few years after we built up a little bit of capital, we started doing rental properties. And that's really split now that's that's our main thing. Now we very rarely do any flips. But we do rental properties. We loan some money to other people who are flipping houses so we're more of a kind of transition into a more passive investor long run   Michael: Right on you kind of covered the Whole real estate investing schema there, didn't you?   Chad: Yeah, I've been fortunate to be able to do a lot of it. Yeah, I've been on the money side now a little bit more the buy and hold the flipping, I've been the one who's out there making, you know, 5, 10 offers a week, you know, knocking on doors trying to buy properties that are, you know, in distress situations or landlord. So, it's been fun to be able to do all aspects of it. And I think it's kind like I talked about earlier, some point, if you want to outsource it other people, I don't think you need to know how to be an expert on everything. Like I'm not an expert, remodeler, contractor. But it certainly helped me be able to make decisions a little bit better with our money. Knowing all the details, what has to be done,   Michael: That makes sense.   Tom: It's almost more important to know where your gaps are at, you know, you know, versus coming in. And hubris and you know, saying that you're the best and every as that's a great point.   Chad: Yeah, yep.   Michael: And was all this local to where you were Chad?   Chad: It was at the time. Yeah, so I've always invested in Clemson, I was fortunate that, you know, not a lot of people in the country aren't as fortunate that the deals that we were flipping also transition nicely into rental properties. And actually, my very first rental property was a house that I bought from another investor, the investor owner financed it to me with a really small downpayment. And I moved in briefly for like six months, and I realized is like a 2324 year old kid, as I can't afford this house with like $750 payments, and it's the best it is sold to me. So I quickly moved out and rented it out, and was able to at least turn it into a rental property.   So that is my story. But I have over time, my wife and I part of our our story is that she's a Spanish teacher, we love traveling. And so we always knew kind of the back of our minds, the rental business is going at once we want to turn that into an income stream that we can use to travel and have a little bit more flexibility. And so several trips in our time together, 2009, 2017, we've gone abroad and kind of taken our backpacks before kids and just wandered around in South America. And then 2017, we had our two kids who were three and five at the time. And we moved to Ecuador for 17 months, and put them in school there. And they were able to study set learn Spanish with kids there and and so what started as a local business turned into a more of a long distance business and kind of forced us to think about systems and approaches and property managers. And how do we do this without me having to be there all the time?   Michael: Oh, this is so cool. I have so many follow up questions. But what a neat story. What a neat story. So with all the local stuff. Did you have property managers, were you utilizing property managers when you're doing the buy and hold type stuff?   Chad: Yeah, we started off doing everything ourselves. So not saying that's the right way to do it. But we were the property manager and say we as a business partner as well, early on, we actually divided up the business into like, the first step was acquisitions, and then financing, and then fixing up the property and then farming it out, which is either selling it or renting it out. And we basically divided it down the middle I was the acquisitions guy, I was the financing person who worked on getting bank or private money. And then he would manage the rehabs and then either get it rented out or sell it. And so we we did all that in house in terms of the early on property management.   And we over time, the the model we did was we grew kind of internal assistant who started off as a bookkeeper. And then she's really competent as a bookkeeper. And we saw the she had other skills, communication skills. And so we kind of groomed her into being more of a property manager, where she would do 90% of the tasks. So the you know, when we put signs out or put ads in the online or took calls from people or talk to people, former landlord, she would do almost all of that, I would still be the underwriter to decide, yes, we're going to rent to this person or not. And I would sign the lease agreements, still do some things like that. But we basically built our own internal property manager for a little property management company for a little while. But then over time, we'd grown a little bit bigger. And it outgrew her capacity to do as much. And she also decided to retire. So we just in the last year, we've moved more to third party property management with a couple different companies. So we've transitioned into just having being more of a pure investor, and having other people do do the property management stuff   Tom: In transitioning to that more of a buy and hold strategy versus wholesaling. I'd love to hear what were some of the early kind of like learning points that are no struggles of just getting in and being more that kind of buy and hold strategy is I would imagine doing self property management. There's some challenges there but kind of across the board. I'd love your thoughts on.   Chad: Yeah, I mean, yeah, the definitely the actually learning how to be a manager was was a big growing curve, you know, and I wish we had more time of dating myself a little bit, but 2007 and eight was when we were really started transitioning into more full time buying hold. And that also happened to be the time that the Great Recession happened and rate time and I   Tom: Think everyone was forced to do that. Anyway,   Chad: I was forced to do it. That's why we couldn't flip as many houses that we had just bought in 2007. So that was a big learning experience. I think the other thing we just a lot about we just had we had learning lessons where we may mistakes on how to how to analyze the numbers for a rental property. And this is a big takeaway that I know you guys probably talked about too, is that if you don't have a good estimate of what your maintenance and your capital expenses are, and you underestimate those, you know, when you buy and hold your, you're holding this thing for me, you're nobody else is going to bail you out of this, like with a flip, you could, you can make a few mistakes, even worst case scenario, you lost a little bit of money, you get rid of the property, and you move on to the next one, with a buy and hold. I mean, this is this is it, you better do your analysis right up front, because it's not going to get any better over time. I mean, the rents might go up in value out a little bit, but it's a long, slow process. And so we bought some properties and just got too aggressive and underestimated a lot of repairs, where we thought we're gonna make $200 a month in cash flow, we're really negative 50 or negative hundred bucks a month. Hopefully, I'm not the only one has ever done that. But   Michael: You're in very good company, man.   Chad: All right. Yeah, so we made that mistake. And but I guess that's the way I learned, you know, I could read in a book, I could listen to a podcast, and then you make the mistake. And now it's burned into my head, wait a minute, like you have to replace heating and air units, wait a minute, this is a 60 year old property and the sewer system or the, you know, the pipes underneath the house are going to start breaking after a long time. So I think some of those old house problems, Tom, were the are some of the lessons, I think we learned that you have to understand how houses put together again, you don't have to be the expert on doing all that stuff. But if you're gonna invest your money, and especially investing directly in properties, you do need to be the asset manager who thinks about the long term life of your systems, which types of properties are most efficient. So we found out that, you know, if you have a house that has all wooden siding, and you have to paint that every five or 10 years, that's a lot more costly than having a property, this brick siding, and has metal trim around the outside of the house, as you know, double pane vinyl windows, and all that low maintenance stuff that seems just kind of boring details. But those kind of things make the difference between a property that makes money over 10 to 20 year period, and a property that becomes an alligator and eats all your money instead.   Michael: It's such a good point to chat about knowing those type of nuances and intricacies of whatever the local effect on the property is going to have. Right. And in harsh weather climates, you want to have maybe a different exterior than in a hotter climate. So knowing all that stuff, I think is so critical. Chad, I'm curious to know about your partner, and how you guys whoever it is got linked up, because something I get questions about all the time is how do I find a partner? And something I've always said is find someone who has what you don't whether it's money time to experience go look to partner with someone, as opposed to whoever your best friend is just because it's easy. So how did you two meet?   Chad: I think your advice is right, I think we did bring different things to the party. But we were both beginners in real estate investing when we got into it. And I was when I played football in college at Clemson he had an online business, which at the time was a weird thing in 2000, you know, 02, 03 to have a internet business. And he had it was actually related to Clemson sports. And so I was he was doing interviews with some of the football players. And I just met him that way and kind of hit it off talked about finance and real estate something else. And so over time, we just went to some classes together and said, Hey, this is cool, we ought to do this together. And when I decided to move back up to Clemson, right after college was over, we just jumped in together, we actually started an LLC, each of us put 250 bucks into this LLC.   And so we had a $500 in capital in this thing. We actually read a book called The E-Myth at the time really awesome. business book, and book, it was the first book we read about business and it said, Hey, when you start a business, you ought to go and treat yourself like a big corporation and say, Alright, here's the CFO, here's the CEO. Here's the person who handles bookkeeping. And so we drew this like diagram of all the different roles in our little flipping business. And I said, Tommy, which one do you want to take? Alright, I'll take this one. You took it we just like like alternating back and forth. It's totally random. And, but but it was a really good exercise, because it did force us to divide our task and ask like, Alright, who's good at what he was better at just working with contractors and saying, Hey, this is what it is, can you do any better on that price, he was just kind of haggling and staying on focus, and a really good project manager.   And then I was more than a communicator, and going out negotiating with people and finding sellers and kind of the more the sales communication role. And we just divided that up. And we had some crossover here and there, but I think we were, what we both contributed was we didn't have to have a lot of overhead and hire anybody for a while because we contributed a bunch of time to it personally. And then eventually it became profitable to the sense that we could start hiring some people particularly on the rental side, but the thing that made it work was exactly your advice. Make sure you're each bringing something different to the party. The other thing was just aligning your long term goals and Is this a good person, you got to trust your partner with somebody This is all about trust is somebody who you believe in you can trust. If there's any inkling at all, there's just not even if it's not trust, it's not a good personality fit. Just don't do it. Like just move on. There's better there's better ways to spend Your time because it's kind of like a marriage, but without all the other benefits of marriage for a long time, and for better or worse, and, you know, a lot of partnerships get ugly, because there's not an alignment of a lot of those things we just talked about.   Tom: Yeah.   Michael: For anybody considering a partnership, please rewind the last four minutes and listen to that again.   Tom: Yeah. You know, I like about two is just thinking of like, what people bring to the table, you know, it's not all like one side, it could be experience, it could be they have a lot of extra time to work on it. It could be a lot of capital. I mean, just like, as Michael was alluding to earlier, and I mean, just to hammer on the point, like, yeah, trust, if that's not there, like just throw it all out, it really, really doesn't matter.   Chad: Yeah, I didn't want to hop on that one. We've done other partnerships since then. So we have a company. But we've partnered with other people, and exactly that role, where we brought the energy expertise, the ability to go find deals, somebody else was super busy at a job, but has some capital and credit. And we did partners like credit partnerships where they would buy, we'd bring a deal, they'd buy the property, and then we found a way to split up the deal. And they were a bit more passive. And we've used a lot of creative financing to get that done, like lease options and, and other kind of contracts. But real estate, so cool. In that way, there are a lot of different ways to split deals up. And it happens all the way up from the very tiny deals all the way up to, you know, hundreds of millions of dollars in commercial real estate, there's using options and leases and contracts, that sky's the limit on how creative you can get if you get the basic, you know, arrangement of what you're talking about that everybody brings some value, you agreed in writing how it's gonna work. And to me, that's one of the most fun parts of the business.   Tom: I got a question for each. I think a lot of people have can offer one of these things get money or skilled or whatnot. But I think a lot of people are concerned about getting taken advantage of like, what is their kind of BS detector on somebody they might want to do work with? Do you have any advice for people in vetting out a potential partner, either on the capital side or on the operation side on enter your method of kind of identifying like, is this a good actor?   Chad: I just like to move slowly. Yeah, I think some of this is like, even outside of the real estate sphere. Most of us have worked with people before most of us have been taken advantage before typically is moving too fast. It's trying to get it done. Now, I read a book early on in my career, as well called the Seven Habits of Highly Effective People.   Tom: Love your book list!     Michael: Killer list. Chad.   Tom: Keep them coming.   Chad: Yeah, I go back to that book all the time. Because there's so many life lessons, it's about knowing yourself, but also how you communicate with people, when his comments was when you're working with systems and business, you know, a lot of entrepreneurs want to go fast, they just want to make everything efficient, do the best thing. But when you're working with people, like slow is fast, like going slower, and slowing things down and getting to know somebody. And I've constantly been reminded this over time, whether it's working with money partners, where you know, I just got to know somebody for a year or two. And do I trust this person do I like them is my personality align. And so many times, we just want to jump into something really fast.   But when people go slowly, take your time, ask questions, get to know the person, then and only then do you start looking at some of the details of the real estate deal. Because all of that the foundation of all that other stuff is completely dependent on that relationship and that trust. So I think that's my tip, it's not really a hack or something you do fast. But if you're long distance, which I know a lot of listeners are, it's gonna be a little bit more challenging. But maybe one of the silver linings of COVID is that everybody's doing zoom anyway. So just getting used to having a zoom with a property manager having a if you are going to partner with somebody who's like a general partner, don't let them push you into something too fast. They're trying to push you really fast. That's probably the wrong person. I've heard somebody give a tip where they've said, I'd like to invest money with you. This is the limited partner talking.   But I want to watch a couple deals that you do before I do that. And they get all the documentation for that deal. They would follow the whole thing through as if they had invested with that person ask questions, they paid attention to details. And that takes a lot of patience takes a lot of time. But I think that's so worth it. You'll get to know somebody, you'll get to know how they do things. If you just study them for a little while, six months, nine months, maybe a year after that you've cemented that even though they're they're a good person to work with it or not. And then that that time you've invested in that downpayment, of relationship building you've invested can last for 20, 30 years after that,   Tom: Love it, there's this theme in poker called being tight and aggressive. And it's like, you know, having kind of taken that time to get to know someone doing all that right work. And then once it's like, oh, yeah, this is right, then it's being aggressive and moving quickly. I love that.   Chad: There you go.   Tom: Moving slow and fast.   Michael: It is such good advice. Because Yeah, I know, every single time I've been burned by someone is because I moved way too quickly. Because I felt cornered felt forced, it felt like I was my hand was forced. And yeah, it worked out horribly and to the opposite. Everyone that I spent time getting to know it's worked out beautifully or it just never worked out at all and that's okay too. But I spent the time to learn that   Chad: And I think about myself Why did I do that? Because I've done the same thing like I think it was because I was I had a scarcity mindset that absolutely another deal. There's not gonna be another partner, right? You know, there's always another deal. There's always another partner. So as a brand new investor, don't get pressured to think that you're going to miss out on something. There have been deals for 100 to thousands of years in real estate, there will be deals for hundreds and thousands of years. Again, don't worry about it, you're gonna be just fine.   Michael: The deal of a lifetime only comes around about once a week. So   Chad yeah, there you go.   Michael: Awesome. Well, Chad, I know that you're also in the real estate education space, you have coach Carson, calm, curious to know what you see some common hurdles, challenges are for new investors,   Chad: I think before knowledge is confidence. Like I think, you know, I deal with so many people who are competent professionals. And in some other space, you know, they're an engineer, they're a salesperson, they're a nurse, janitor, whatever, they're good at what they do. And then here, they come into real estate, and they're an adult trying to learn this thing. And they're also gonna invest a bunch of their money in it. That's just a recipe for like, lack of confidence. And just man I can't. And so that's one of the biggest hurdles that I see. My solution is kind of like, this is sports analogy, Coach Carson, kind of why bring that to the table, is that anything time you're trying to do something big, you just got to break it down into really little small pieces, like the Dave Ramsey baby steps.   Because when you do that, it becomes less intimidating. And you build confidence on that one little thing. And I'll give you an example. Like something out when people are first starting, I often recommend that they just focus on your What is your strategy? Like Don't worry about getting into analyzing your market, don't worry about the money yet. Don't worry about any of that. Let's just talk about like you and your finances and where you are. Are you a brand new beginner, are you you have a million bucks in the bank and you're trying to like diversify, or you have 50,000 bucks in the bank and you're trying to grow that nest egg, depending on where you are, that's gonna sort of dictate which strategy makes sense, whether that's house hacking, buy and hold rentals, long distance rentals, turnkey. You know, there's a lot of different viable strategies out there. Don't try to copy cookie cutters that you heard on a podcast because it worked for Chad or worked for somebody else, you know, have that self knowledge of saying, Alright, here's where I am. Here's where what I need in my life financially, and just be okay  with that strategy. be okay with doing one deal, even though people on bigger pockets are doing thousand deals in one year, you know, man, that's intimidating. Like, I can't I can't do that.   Michael: I could never do that.   Chad: Yeah, I could never do that. So therefore I must not be successful. I think that's the challenge is that you can if you compare yourself to other people, that's going to kill your confidence. If you try to take on too much at one time, that's gonna kill your confidence. So be okay with who you are. be okay with where you are. Break it down into the next step and say, what's the next thing I need to figure out? All right, I got my strategy. I'm going to do house hacking. Alright, good. What's next? All right, I need to figure out my target market. Where am I gonna invest? Alright, let's talk about that. How do you analyze the market. So you break it down in those steps, and it becomes much more manageable.   And it's kind of like, you know, you're going on a hike or a journey, you just kind of check one milestone off another milestone. And that's the cool thing about real estate to me is that you don't have to jump all in at one time. Um, there's a bunch of little steps, even down to the contract. If you get a property under contract, that seems really intimidating. But there's a due diligence clause where you can you ask your local attorney or local agent to if you made a big mistake, and you shouldn't pay that price, you have about 14 days maybe to evaluate that and get out of it. So I think there's so many little steps like that we can move forward with low risk or no risk and build your confidence to the point where you get some momentum eventually.   Michael: That's great advice. So you're also the author of retire early with real estate, a great book, I've read it, we're actually gonna be reading it for our roof stock Academy book club next month. We're very excited about it. Yeah, it's gonna be fun. It's gonna be a lot of fun. You're gonna come join us for our book club session next month. What motivated you to write that?   Chad: Yeah, it was actually right in the middle of when I was traveling to Ecuador when I wrote it. And I actually had a conversation with Brandon Turner BiggerPockets. We were at a conference about a year before that. And we were just chatting about his books he was doing, they were doing pretty well. I was just picking his brain. And he's like, Oh, you want to write a book, you know, go submit this. And it's kind of early stages of their book, book business. And I started I like the idea. I've been writing a blog and thousands and thousands of words, initially, I didn't think anybody would read that stuff. And then more people started reading it as Oh, that's cool. So I had a lot of words on paper, but I kind of condensed like, what is it all about that? What are some of the messages I'm trying to convey? And what are the things that are important to me and one of the I think the core messages that I try to get across in my blog, and my podcast is that real estate investing is a vehicle. It's a tool, but it's taking you to a place where you're doing more of what matters in your life.   So it's really about your life. It's about working backwards from what's important to you, what are your values? How would you spend your time on a day to day basis, if you had unlimited money, and money wasn't an issue anymore? I think those answers are why most of us are doing it. And very often it gets turned around where we're like, it's all about the thousand units. And it's about the doing really well which is which is cool. You know, I'm not discounting any of that stuff. But I wanted to write a book that not only validated like the small investor who's investing for lifestyle and who's trying to, you know, maybe have five properties, get them paid off and have three or 4000 bucks coming in and allowing them to work a part time job instead of working a full time job at 40 years old.   Like that kind of lifestyle business is what earlier retirement meant to me that was the idea of getting control of your money so that you can get to control your time and your life. And start asking yourself that question like, Alright, what does matter to me what I want to do, and I grew up, you know that same question we asked when we were 15 years old, 10 years old, like when I grew up, I'm going to be an astronaut. When I grew up, I'm going to start this big thing that's going to help the world and save the world. You know, when we get to be adults, we kind of get that creativity and that imagination ground out of us because we get into the practical stuff. And so I wanted to write a book that kind of inspired on the big picture of, hey, what could you do, if money were not an object, and then go from there and give like a blueprint. So it's kind of the big picture, here are the steps you can take to climb up the mountain, whether you're brand new beginner, whether you're intermediate, whether you're advanced, here are the steps you take and the things you need to think about if you actually want to live off of your rental income and have that flexibility.   Michael: That's so great. Yeah, so often I hear or the question asked, you know, what's your goal and people give $1 figure unit count figure that really needs to go a step further than that is to know what is that money your unit count gonna allow you to do? What's the life that you want to be living?   Tom: Yeah, yeah. The Why just because it's such a struggle, you know, in going through it, like, there's setbacks all the time. And it's like, you have a really flimsy why on, you know, not a clear kind of definition of like what done you know, where you want to go makes it that much more difficult to keep going without that more solid aspect?   Chad: Absolutely. Yeah, my real estate is fun. I love the business too. But I recognize there's, there's kind of a variation on the people who get into it, how passionate they are about it, like some people would be fine, getting a few properties, letting somebody else do all the work. And they want to go start a nonprofit to do something completely on their own related to real estate. You know, I'm a nerd, you guys are nerds. We're like doing podcasts about this all the time. But there's some people that are kind of partially nerds about it. And you know, that's okay, too. But if you have that passion in mind, and you have that in mind, it's more than just kind of fluffy feel good stuff.   I mean, it it dictates how you make decisions about the types of properties you buy, the scale of how you grow your business, the types of contracts and deals you get into. I mean, for example, my business partner and I have mainly stayed with small residential. And we've gotten into some like smaller multifamily like 12 plexes. And we bought some bigger properties as well. But we really like the small scale. And we've kind of kept our financing. And the way we do deals pretty simple, like we're not doing syndications and going out and starting, you know, big funds, although we could have had a lot of opportunities to do that. But working it backwards and saying, why am I doing this, I want to be able to turn the business on and off and go travel for 17 months, or I want to start a business like coach Carson, where I made zero money for several years, because it's just fun. And I like it's a passion to be able to do that you've got to build a business that not only makes money, but also has certain require, certain capabilities and systems that allow you to do whatever you want to do. So it's very practical, when you start from the end, kind of work it backwards.   Michael: I think that's such a good point. I know for me, I kind of personally fell victim to that mindset that, you know, the former mindset of, Oh, I got to get to 100 units, 100 units, hundred units. And then it just got to be to this kind of overwhelming point. And I said, Wait a minute, why am I doing like, why is that number important? What is that going to give me? What if I just rearranged some of the things that made my life simpler, could I get the same result or a better result. And so learning to do less with more, I think is really important too. So I love that point you made Chad. Okay, so you can do real estate full time since you're out of college. And I hear so many people, especially in the academy talked about wanting to retire early and looking to you know, make real estate then do real estate full time. Give us a day in the life of a full time real estate investor. When you're not in Ecuador.   Chad: Yeah, that's a good question. You know, I still like work. I think that's one of the secrets that people hear about retiring early.   Michael: Because we're nerds, man.   Chad: I enjoy it like I do like it. But I think the main differences is there's a lot less pressure. I know when we first started even up until 2014 and 15, even we had some of the properties, same number of properties. There's just always the pressure of like next month, I got to produce again next month, I got to do more and get into some of these plateaus where the cash flow continues to come in. Yes, there's some problems. Yes, the heat and air blows up here and there. Yes, there's some cash flow kind of rollercoasters here and there, but getting to the point where it's pretty consistent on the amount of money you can get coming in, that allows you to kind of change your schedule around as well. For example, I used to take all of our leasing calls, I used to take calls from people, you know, when you put a property for rent, you get dozens of calls, and you're on the phone all the time, like I do deep work, I do creative work, I do things that are not necessarily really urgent, and I paid other people to do the sales calls and taking care of maintenance issues.   And and so I think that's that's the thing that shifted, that doesn't mean I'm not aware of those like I still I think all of us no matter how, you know, quote passive, you get should still pay attention to the detail. So like I look at the property management reports every month, I'm paying attention very closely to the cash flow and the amount of rent that's being collected. And are there any kind of exception reporting Are there any weird things on the report this month that are different than normal? I equate that actually To the like, when you watch the matrix, I think it's so cool when he finally can start seeing everything and like digital numbers, you know, 01010. And so I've always compared the point where you're stepping back from your business to something like that, where you look at reports, and you look at, you know, your analysis of your business and numbers. And then when you see something weird or something unusual, you then jump into the matrix, you go in there, and you figure it out, and talk to the property manager and say, Hey, what's up with this thing? Let me get in the weeds too.   So I just I've had to be in the weeds in the last month or two, we had a fire, unfortunately, for the one of our rental properties, and no one was hurt. That was my first question. But we've had to deal with getting bids from contractors dealing with insurance, and how's this gonna work? And how did you tie those two things together. And so that was a new one. For me, I'm spending more than a normal amount of time on that kind of project that comes up every once in a while. But on a typical week, when it's just, Hey, I'm going to do a little bit of bookkeeping, I'm going to send a text message to the property manager. I mean, that could be an hour or two per week, probably max, you know, 110 properties. So it just ranges depending on how involved you want to be.   And also what's going on, I like to get in on the big side, the one we're selling a property when we have an insurance issue like that, when we every once in a while just meeting up with the property managers and talking strategy talking, Hey, how are we screening tenants? What's your best practice here? You know, there's some things like that that go on. But the kind of day to day week to week basis, it's looking at your bookkeeping, looking at those numbers, asking questions, sending a few texts here and there. And that's, that's kind of a normal routine for me.   Michael: Right on. So not to one up you by any means. But I actually had two fires in the same building on a property that I own, and I'm dealing with the insurance thing. So I don't know how it's going for you. I hope it's going well. But if you want to chat offline more about it, I'd be more than happy to public adjusters came and saved my bacon. That's a big, big, big plug for that profession. I was a big fan of that. So I hope it continues to go well. But yeah, let me know if you need some recommendations. happy to share.   Chad: I'm in the early stages. So yeah, I think we'll we'll connect on that. And I'm planning on doing a podcast at some point on my, you know, lessons, the good and bad of what I'm probably screwing some stuff up as well. But yeah, that's that's the that's my plan in the next couple of months to share what I've learned.   Michael: Okay, perfect. I look forward to hearing that.   Tom: I got a question for you sort of a crystal ball question. So changing world going through a pandemic, lots of technology advancements, how do you see this evolving real estate investing with your strategy or general kind of an open ended question of just the confluence of changes in the world and how you see it affecting real estate investment?   Chad: Yeah, I love that question. I think one of the trends and this has already been ongoing before COVID-19 came about, I read a book, it's another book recommendation. Big Shifts Ahead by…   Tom: I heard you drop Deep Work to another great, great book.   Chad: Yeah. Another another reference.   Tom: We love John Burns. Sorry, you're talking about Big Shifts Ahead.   Chad: Okay. So you know, John Burns, okay. I don't know him personally. But I like his work and his book, Big Shifts Ahead.   Tom: We had him on the podcast before he's yet he's a super entertaining guy. We had our back, I'm sorry for interrupting. Go ahead.   Michael: No, he's a legend.   Chad: He's really smart. his company's built is very good with analytics. And what my understanding is they advise a lot of hedge funds and builders and construction, who are looking at the whole country and trying to figure out the big trends. And so one of the to your question, though, one of the big trends that I think is most relevant for us, as investors trying to pick where we're going to invest, and you know, where we put our money is just the flow of people like where are the demographics of people moving and why. And one of the interesting things that john put out there was that, first of all, there's growth all around the country, I mean, country is doing pretty well, if you look at the big picture, let's be optimistic here. Like in the big picture, we're still have a rule of law, we still have contracts with our economy is really hard to replicate.   You're not when I travel around the world, it's kind of evident, you have good people everywhere, but to replicate the recipe of what we have going on with availability of credit, and Mark real estate markets and contracts. And it's just this recipe is pretty unique that we have. So United States is a great place to invest your money. That's my main takeaway. But then within the United States, john burns points out that a lot of the movement of people has been to the south of Southwest, southeast. They're just kind of outpacing growth in those areas. So I'm in South Carolina, Georgia, you know, Alabama's kind of seeing that North Carolina, Tennessee, Texas, you know, been a big way. A lot of people know that it's already on the map, but also Arizona, Southern California to an extent. But you know, there's a weather thing there. But also within that kind of movement to the south. There's a movement from city centers, to suburban areas. And he actually coined a term called surban. I don't know if you guys talked about it on the podcast yet.   Tom: We didn't talk about but I love it.   Chad: Yeah. So the suburban, it's like a hybrid. You have a lot of millennials, for example, lived in urban areas, pre forming their family, they love public transit. They love biking and walking paths and parks. So a lot of these urban things you think about good restaurants, good quality of life. Well, they're moving to the suburbs because they want to buy houses, the urban areas are out of their reach because of the prices. But when they go to the suburbs, what are they looking for? They're looking for urban like qualities. And so one of my favorite locations to invest in and help other people invest in are, you know, go to a city center, go to go to an Atlanta, go to a Charlotte, go to an Austin, Texas, but then go outside the city and find these, you know, little pockets, these little suburban places at 50,000 people 20,000 people, hundred thousand people, and they have their own little gravity, their own little town center and find the ones that have some quality of life factors.   So it could be a college town where I am, that's an example. You've got football games, you've got, you know, intellectual stimulation, you've got culture, there could be other areas that have natural beauty. I think a lot of places Colorado, for example, you know, people are moving there, because of the quality of life. And businesses are moving there, high tech businesses are moving there, because their employees want to live there, these millennials and some of these people who want that quality of life. So I've actually been trying to take my town and Clemson into that I'm kind of getting into local politics and have a nonprofit trying to build bike trails. And I've been trying to convey to them like that trend is happening. And if you're not investing in like quality amenities, and your little small town, to attract those people, you're missing the boat, it's not the traditional, bring in this huge manufacturer who's going to have all these big factories somewhere, a lot of its going to be small tech businesses and people who are working remotely.   And so as real estate investors, we can also pay attention to that and kind of follow some of those trends. And I think particularly for those who aren't big, huge hedge funds, trying to find our one or two little deals, I think we have to go to some of the smaller markets in order to find the opportunities where there's actually still some meat on the bone, you know, some opportunities to buy some properties that cash flow, and have some good growth potential.   Tom: That's awesome. there's a there's a fund out there that focuses very specifically on this kind of tier two cities. And you're right that a lot of those ones have been kind of picked off, you know, the larger private equity and hedge funds and funds are you know, made. It's so competitive. But that's a great point as far as kind of crystal ball on where to go and looking for these, you know, just outside of those major cities. The great john burns reference. Love it.   Michael: Tom, any final questions for Chad before them get out of here?   Tom: No, that was great. Yeah, that was great.   Michael: Well, Chad, thank you so much for taking the time to be here today. If folks have more questions for you want to learn more about you? where's the best place where they can do that? or reach out to you?   Chad: Sure. Yeah, everything online for me starts at coachcarson.com. I've been writing a blog there for years I've want to guides and articles and how to kind of in depth how to articles also have been a lot of fun with my podcast and YouTube channel too. So if you like podcasts have the real estate and Financial Independence Podcast focuses on some of the things we talked about today and more the nuts and bolts and practical side of using real estate to retire early to achieve financial independence.   I also interview some other people, mainly, you know, students, I do have some experts on there. But a lot of it's just real people who are getting it done, how they bought their property, how they, you know, grew to three or four properties. So trying to focus just on the nitty gritty nuts and bolts. And I do the same thing with my YouTube channel where I kind of just get behind the camera kind of coach whiteboard style, you know, drawing on a little whiteboard or something. And here's how you do a debt snowball. Here's how you do a house hack. And so if you like those kind of kind of nuts and bolts type approach to real estate. That's, that's what I try to do.   Michael: Fantastic.   Tom: Awesome. We'll add a link in the podcast description.   Michael: Perfect. Chad, thank you again for taking the time. So looking forward to having you on the academy book club next month. Appreciate that in advance. And we'll catch you later.   Chad: Yeah. Thanks, Tom. Thanks, Michael. It's been a pleasure.   Michael: Okay, everybody, that was our episode a big, big, big thank you to Chad Carson. That was a ton of fun. Thank you so much for joining us a lot of really great nuggets in there. So go back and give it a read, listen, rewind it, take notes, tons and tons of great content in there. So again, a big thank you to Chad. And we look forward to having Chad back on the Roofstock Academy book club session for the month of November. And so if you were thinking about joining the academy or not sure, check us out at RoofstockAcademy.com and feel free to take advantage of the book club session that we're going to be having for the month of November where we have Chad back on. Thanks everyone for listening. And if you'd like that episode, feel free to give us a rating and review wherever it is you listen your podcasts and we look forward to seeing you on the next one.   Tom: Happy investing

Remember, I am a real doctor Eric is a real crna. We do do real medicine. But this show is not intended to diagnose or treat. Please, if you have any issues like rectal bleeding, go to our website, kbmdhealth.com. Download the E book, learn about it, but make sure that you talk to your doctor about it.Eric Rieger  All right, here we are. It is gut check project, Episode Number 28. I am here with your host, Dr. Ken Brown. What's up Doctor Brown. Ken Brown  What's going on Eric? Episode 28. Eric Rieger  Episode 28.Ken Brown  Lots of energy 2020. We're just wow. Eric Rieger  We're so close to 30, it's what, six more years. seven more years. We could run for president release the show.Ken Brown  It's so weird when I'm sitting there doing colonoscopy recalls. And I'm like, come back in 2030...gah! It's weird. Eric Rieger  Yeah, that's good news for those. Everybody. One unique thing. everybody complains about the prep. So if you if you have to have a colonoscopy and you're not looking forward to the prep, you are not alone. Nobody likes it.Ken Brown  You know what, there's a video that I have on my website, Kenneth Brown, MD. com. That's more for my my clinical practice, but I've got a video that can actually talk you through how to get through that prep and a few little bio hacks to do that. I've been through a couple preps myself. I've taken them all. So when patients are like, you have no idea I'm like, No, I do know. I do know, Eric Rieger  I'm fully aware. Ken Brown  Yeah, you can actually go on the website and see it or you can go to YouTube and see my bare bottom there for the world. Because I mean, the one thing that you and I do do we do... Eric Rieger  You just said, doo doo.  Ken Brown  Okay I did, yea you're right. I am a gastroeneterologist but the one thing that we do is we live it. I mean, we We will last week I was fasting. I did a five day fast.Eric Rieger  You did? And you did well.Ken Brown  I did. I I liked it man, that erexin erexin is a hormone that kicks in that creates energy. I became euphoric again. I was just chatty Cathy run around loving it. Eric Rieger  It's a wild thing to see play out the erexin. Having done it myself, it's it's when you're not expecting it especially.Ken Brown  Yeah, totally. And this time I kind of did sort of the fasting mimicking diet where I kept the calories down. It was almost exclusively just water. But I did cheat a little bit, but not cheating. I kept my calories down. I allowed myself to choose some celery once in a while. And if you look at valter Longo's  data when he talks about the fasting, mimicking diet, they allow you to have up to, you know, whatever 800 calories and you can still trick the body into fasting. What I really enjoyed was my family's getting more used to it so they weren't like I like I was a little irritable at some times and you know Loyda was cool with it. She understood. She's like, well, you're fasting. And, you know, so it was there and so the kids were kind of making fun of it. But when we sit there and look at it, and you realize that I'm trying to turn on some stem cells and all these other things, I really felt like I'm gonna make this a regular part every three months. I'm gonna try and do a five day fast. Sounds really daunting. But when you look at the data, if you get a chance, there's on amazon prime. If you're an Amazon Prime member, there's a documentary called fasting and they interview what I consider the fasting experts. They've got Jason Fung, they've got Sachin Panda. They've got Valter Longo and they all talk about the different types of fastings. And what you achieve with each oneEric Rieger  Yeah, no, I totally worth it. Very low cost. It's something you can do and there are tons of benefits. We probably should do a fasting reset episode, just specific to what we can find and then we've had nurses and different technicians that we've worked with who've decided to implement fasting as part of their own healthy regimen. who already seen lower blood pressure and different things like that? So it requires really no true investment. It just requires a little bit of discipline.Ken Brown  Yeah, and it's a it seems once and I remember what was the conference live it to lead it Conference. I was lecturing and I that that was the first conference where it was a fasting conference. And they purposely did not serve anythingUnknown Speaker  No.Ken Brown  We went all day.Eric Rieger  All day. Ken Brown  Everyone in that conference about 400 people. Eric Rieger  But you're all in it together.Ken Brown  Yeah. That that is Dr. Daniel Pompa. And he's the one that really kind of got me thinking about fasting. And he's, if you want to check him out, he's he's awesome. We know we know Angelo, his his. who's the CEO right now? Anyways, we're always doing business with these guys. They're amazing people. Dr. Dan Pompa. Check it out. I did his podcast and we and he is somebody that is extremely knowledgeable about fasting realizing that that turns on cellular health.Eric Rieger  Definitely. Well, let's do a quick reset so we can get down because we have actually quite a few topics to get to today. So episode number 28. It is the gut check project. I'm Eric Rieger here with your host, Dr. Kenneth Brown. As always, still sponsored by Atrantil, Atrantil chock full of pro anthocyanin, polyphenols, polyphenols, you don't have to have gut distress to benefit from Atrantil do you Dr. Brown? Ken Brown  You do not. We're learning a lot and I'm going to get into some literature today and get into some data explaining about how this is actually super important because what we're going to talk about is something that is affecting your health, and it is screwing all of us up. So if you are a human living on planet Earth... Eric Rieger  Most of us. Ken Brown  You need to listen to the rest of the show. I'm gonna geek out a lot this is gonna be some serious science, but it's super important because we got stuff going on in the world right now that is affecting you and I can tell you how the polyphenols actually help protect you against what I'm going to tell you about that's everywhere.Eric Rieger  Go to lovemytummy.com/kbmd lovemytummy.com/kbmd to learn more and get your own AtrantilKen Brown  Atrantil!Eric Rieger  And then also go and visit our brand new website it KBmdhealth, KBMdhealth.com. You can get your hands on Atrantil there as well as Dr. Brown's signature package which includes Atrantil as well as CBD. So why in the world would somebody want to combine Atrantil and CBD? Ken Brown  Well, that is a great question, Mr. Eric. And one of the reasons why we learned through the science was as I was developing Atrantil I started talking to a lot of different scientists and contrary to what people think there's tons of science on CBD cannabidiol tons of science on the endocannabinoid system. As it turns out the polyphenols in Atrantil, actually allow your body to produce and keep around more of your own.  endogenous endocannabinoids, meaning you produce your own CBD like molecules called anandaminde and 2-ag. And I know you're going to talk about that a little bit. We'll get to that. Yeah. But basically, you can like it's, it's a exponential growth of your own endocannabinoid system. I started looking into this because when we were first treating people for their gut health, I couldn't believe how many of my patients said, you know what I'm still taking Atrantil my gut feels better, but I just feel better. Everything's better. And then I had to start looking into it. I went, Oh my gosh, the polyphenols, the post biotics the microbiome, and the endocannabinoid system is just one big Venn diagram and they all interact with each other. Eric Rieger  They definitely do. Ken Brown  And we're going to talk about that a little bit later also.  Eric Rieger  We that's something once again, you alluded to it earlier, we actually work in a clinic and do procedures. We see people all of the time that take those things combined also with a healthy diet that just simply are feeling and living better, which is great. So kBmdhealth.com. You can find the store, you just pan down the page and the brand new website, which soon will have some repository for CBD information research, we're going to talk about Oh, here soon we will have the repository on rectal bleeding. So if you've ever worried about somebody who may have seen spotting in their underwear suddenly use the bathroom and look down and they saw a little bit of blood, we're going to try to help people stave off the panic and yet find good solutions and answers for them so they can stay healthy. Ken Brown  Yeah. So if you're wondering why in the world, we just did the right turn towards rectal bleeding as it turns out, that is the most search term that people get super worried about. Eric Rieger  Yeah, it is. And we get the most questions about rctal bleeding. Ken Brown  We get the most questions about that. So if you've ever if you have a family member, if you ever seen blood in the toilet, it's scary. And we're going to take that head on and I'm going to tell you how that you should not ignore it. Never ignore it but we put together a really cool ebook that's very informative. I think it's very entertaining, I'm very happy with with Drew Parker helping us out with the graphics on that he's a fantastic digital graphic designer, and I think it's going to help a lot of people and if I can just get a few people in to get checked out so that they don't worry. Much like we see with my colonoscopy video i get i get comments all the time, where people like thank you for doing that video. I went in and I had several large polyps. I never would have done it had it not seen that. That's the same thing. We're here to help everyone. I just want to see people get healthier. Everything that we talked about on the show is some way to augment your life. Sometimes it's gut health. Sometimes it's lighting discussions. Sometimes it's just whatever we think you and I learned something we're like, we're going to share this with the world.Eric Rieger  Yep, definitely. So be sure Stay tuned. We will definitely make an announcement. If you are not a member of the KBMD community already, just go to KBMDhealth.com pan all the way to the bottom, just give us your name. It'll allow us to have your email and then you'll be looped in as soon as we have the rectal bleeding stuff that you can share with anyone, and anyone coast to coast. If they need help they could use this information, it would help them out.Ken Brown  Yeah, and we're trying to grow this. We're getting some really good feedback. If you have any questions, if you want us to talk about anything, we have access to experts. That's what I ultimately want to do, if we're going to talk about so today's show, let's talk about the short term. Today's show, we're going to just kind of get caught up on a few things. And I really want to dive deep into this science about things that are hurting you that you can prevent one particular thing in the environment that I know that we can help people with. And then going forward. One of the exciting things that I want to do is I'm going to start bringing in some seriously geeky experts so that we can get to some of the science that's out there, that most people don't even understand that we have a community of PhDs surrounding us of the MD's surrounding us. And they're doing some crazy stuff, but they're not out there promoting it. They're not on Instagram or Facebook and other stuff. You gotta dig deep. You gotta bring them in. And oh my gosh, you'll learn so much. That's what we're gonna do in 2020 this thing is going to be a home for if you have a question, we're going to find the person to answer it.Eric Rieger  Yeah. And we're already starting to fill out that fill out that that schedule. So this this year should be quite exciting.Ken Brown  Yeah. And if, if we can't find an expert, and we don't know the answer, Eric is gonna make it up.Eric Rieger  Sounds so confident. that's a really good selling point. Let's get into it. This last weekend, I left I haven't even told you the story. I left the clinic headed home wanting to go and make the boys basketball games that were up in Wichita Falls. I got about 20 miles from home and suddenly, torrential rain going sideways hail. My phone goes off tornado warning. What in the world and it couldn't see couldn't see anything. And then finally it all passes everything's fine and to my knowledge no one was was hurt. There was some wind damage and a tornado spotted somewhere I didn't see it. But then the next morning Saturday, I wake up snow three and a half inches everywhere Ken Brown  But it was like 70 degrees when that tornado was happening. Eric Rieger  No Joke.Ken Brown  And the very next morning, it snowed. Eric Rieger  It was 24 degrees. The very next morning beautiful too. I mean, it was snowed very, very hard. And then by the time the afternoon came all melted, pretty much gone. I mean, that's amazing. Living in North Texas, especially. You just experienced a lots of different fluctuations in weather. There's no health story here. But it is kind of a treat sometimes you just kind of see everything. Ken Brown  It is I watched last night as a family we watched because Rafa Nadal was on 60 minutes. They were interviewing obviously, we always talk about tennis and we'll get into the whole family thing but Rafa was on so the family wanted to watch the 30 minutes and I remember I used to watch 60 minutes with my dad growing up. Eric Rieger  Yeah me too!Ken Brown  Yeah. And I actually really enjoyed that. I didn't A lot of it I didn't understand. It was political and stuff like that. But I'd be like, 10 years old watching 60 minutes. So last night we were watching and they were looking at Florence, Italy. The canals. Dude. Up a lot. I mean, come on. We this weird climate change. We got Australia on fire. We got this going on. And they're there they're having hundred year floods, like every month. Eric Rieger  Yeah, they're not hundred years anymore. Ken Brown  No.Eric Rieger  yeah, it's pretty wild. Ken Brown  It's crazy.Eric Rieger  I can't remember who it was. It said that they were there before the the water started. And like as they were leaving. And someone told me I thought it was some of you and I knew I've already forgotten. But anyhow, yeah, they were there and the last day of this day was was the first day that the water began to creep in towards the hotel. So that wasn't that long ago. But really interesting. Ken Brown  It's It's crazy. I just saw an article today, where if we actually tend to have this, this climate change continues in this this pathway. Where now people are pretty much open to it now. Now we realized that okay, things are happening, the level of violence. So some epidemiologists were looking at if with each degree of worldwide raise in temperature, violence goes up and due to a lot of different reasons, and they had all these different reasons as to how that happens. But basically, we can become a more violent society with global warming. It's crazy. Eric Rieger  Wow. Ken Brown  I know. It's nuts.Eric Rieger  Man, I don't even know how to answer that. That's wildKen Brown  I don't even want to get into it. Because I just kind of looked at that. And I said, I'm already a little bit scared of where we're headed. I don't need to know that all of a sudden, we're going to become more violent due to it. That's like the last thing that I neededEric Rieger  No, no. Yeah.Ken Brown  I generally chill out when it gets warm. I like to you know, I mean, I like the heat. I sauna all the time so. Eric Rieger  Yeah, we'll usually see people on the beach and their just laying down. I don't know. I'm not really getting it. Ken Brown  This article described how we're just going to go around and violence will increase so...Eric Rieger  Yeah it's unfortunate Well, do you have anything you want to hit on quick before we Oh, I've thought of something else but I'll go ahead and let you go first.Ken Brown  Well, I was just gonna give a quick update with the family. Because this never happens in my house. We were all here. We did a whole lot of nothing. We... Eric Rieger  Did y'all all know each other? Ken Brown  We did. Eric Rieger  That's good. Ken Brown  Yeah.  So the the kids at the last time that they're at they had one of those big giant Connect fours and so they ended up playing like the boys would play these are like, like the nation's best tennis players at that age and they're all were gathered around to connect for like an old school Connect Four that was like, like five feet tall. Eric Rieger  That's awesome. I love Connect Four.Ken Brown  So I ended up playing the kids a lot. In Connect Four on the on the computer. We ate out we found some new ramen places, and we chilled I slept 10 and a half hours last night.Eric Rieger  That's not bad. Ken Brown  I loved it.  Heck, yeah. That's my weekend. How about you? Unknown Speaker  All weekend boys had basketballs out is that talked about earlier Saturday night. I'm just getting older friend of mine, his daughter who I remember when she was really young. She got married. Really cool. Yeah. Whole family went and it was, it was a lot of fun. So shout out to Savannah and Rex. Just a great gathering of some folks, these these were really close friends of ours that he was transferred to Japan. And so he'd been there and I hadn't seen him since he been transferred there and his daughter gets married. And my brother was there my brother's close to this family also and it was it was a lot of fun. Ken Brown  That's awesome. Unknown Speaker  Yeah, yeah, it's really cool. Ken Brown  You love seeing it maintaining friendships and relationships that far that you're seeing your your friends kids...Ken Brown  And he just got transferred again. You know where to? Aww poor guy...Hawaii.Eric Rieger  No awful for him. He and his wife are just hating it.Ken Brown  Yeah. I finished the book Traction by Gina Whitman. Eric Rieger  Yes. Nice.Ken Brown  I took notes. I think I even sent you a copy. My notes are 28 pages.Eric Rieger  You did. I'm behind you and I can't say that I know what all of your notes mean. But I think that they'll be good cliffs for someone who's gonna read it.Ken Brown  What I love is every one of these people that in our entrepreneurial group baby bathwater every time I say Traction, they've all read it. They're like, absolutely necessary. So if you're a small business owner, try out the book Traction, the most updated one. Eric Rieger  Sure, definitely, yeah. Ken Brown  What were you gonna say? Eric Rieger  So, I told you that I wanted to talk about 2-ag just briefly, but the reason is, and I, I can't remember exactly what study was, but that's not what's important. What's important is they were breaking down. Why do people smoke cigarettes whenever they become anxious? Ken Brown  Cigarettes or marijuana? Eric Rieger  Or was the marijuana?Ken Brown  Marijuana I think. Yeah, because they're looking at the endocannabinoid system. Eric Rieger  Marijuana cigarettes is what I meant to say. But that's what that's what they're talking about. But anyway, regardless, they're smoking marijuana, and why would they do that if they become anxious, and it has more to do with the increased production of 2-ag than what they had realized. It's not the only thing. It's just that they noticed that you increase your endogenous 2-ag and of course, if you're just tuning in anandamide and 2-ag are the probably the most prevalent endogenous cannabinoid we have. Ken Brown  Certainly the most studied. Yeah so we make our own endocannabinoids and they're called anandamide and 2-ag. 2-ag stands for 2-Arachidonoylglycerol acid so 2-ag is easier. Eric Rieger  Correct. It is that's why that's all that I ever say but I just want to pointed it out to you right before we started you said yes I think I saw the same thing. So what are your thoughts on that?Ken Brown  Well, I just think it's so interesting because we always meet all these people are like, oh, there's no science on CBD. Oh, there's no whatever, no people we have an endocannabinoid system. We have been neglecting our endocannabinoid system and the articles that I'm going to bring up later probably show why in our endocannabinoid system we're deficient. So what this article looked at, is the fact that people are self treating. Now we know the molecule that goes up, that helps them deal with their anxiety. You know, it isn't like a it isn't like, oh, you're just running away from your problems? No, you're balancing yourself out by doing that. Eric Rieger  Yeah, another interesting part though I thought about that particular article that I was reading there was referencing the study is that it was almost as if they were talking about 2-ag as just a substance, and then later talked about it as that it is it is an endogenous cannabinoid. But it, they presented it as if it was a newfound compound. And just just because of what we do, and I didn't really take it that way. I was like, well, you're kind of behind the curve. This isKen Brown  Isn't that funny? Eric Rieger  It's been a long time! Ken Brown  Yeah. Because Yeah, I actually didn't read the article you called and told me about that. I'm like, that's funny, because they're acting like they discovered something. We've been talking 2-ag and anandamide for years now.Eric Rieger  Right, right. Maybe Maybe it's just the way I interpret it. But that's the way it felt it felt like that they're talking like it's something new that they were trying to show correlation of this, this increase of this mysterious 2-ag and in truth, I felt like it was really just kind of establishing the importance of a healthy endocannabinoid system, which is really what I felt was my takeaways like hey, look, this is just yet more proof on why a healthy ECS is a great balance for somebody who is suffering from anxiety or, or something like that. You want to get that in in you want you want to keep your ECS healthy.Ken Brown  Yeah so the endocannabinoid system what's interesting is that I'm I'd be curious to see if they did the exact same study with just pure CBD cannabidiol maybe you don't even have to smoke the marijuana cigarette as you say. And you just take CBD and then your body will adapt to that as well. Whenever people say oh, I take CBD and it helps with XYZ Well, one of the things is, I mean, we got a lot going on and I looking back in my life I've always run very anxious. Well, ever since I started doing the KBMD, health CBD, my anxiety 100% has been much more manageable, much more in balanced and I realized that Oh, that's probably one of those things as I'm running around anxious, my 2-ag is down possibly my ananadamide is down. All this is allowing me to do is just get back to my baseline.Eric Rieger  Yeah, no, I agree. That it's something I didn't, I wasn't able to ascertain. Excuse me. You said I wonder if CBD could do that more than likely so and I was also kind of curious is what the mix was, you know because there's different strains out there for marijuana. And so I didn't I didn't know what they were referencing I highly doubt that it was probably one of those super efficient high level Maui Wowie things that everybody's clamoring for when they go out of a state that doesn't allow it to go and buy I really think that probably really like anything the more natural that something were to exist is probably where they're getting the benefit from but I don't know they didn't really...Ken Brown  Isn't it so fascinating we just lump everything together. That's like saying hey, Eric, tea is Good for you. Eric Rieger  What kind of tea? Ken Brown  Exactly? So are you gonna take Elong which is going to have different black teas in it? Are you going to take chamomile which is going to calm you down.Eric Rieger  Is lipton light green? Ken Brown  Exactly. Eric Rieger  It's not.Ken Brown  It's you know, are we are you going to put a little packets of peak tea? Which our good friends peak tea, which They have polyphenols in there also and they promote that a lot. So I don't know why we discuss the marijuana plant like that because it could be that varied just like tea leaves. It could be so varied the cannabis plant and when we start lumping things together we just become ignorant to the whole process. If I say that to you will put you to sleep and you do a good solid green tea and you're up for hours. You're like, Well, that didn't work. I'm like no, no, that's not all tea puts you to sleep certain teas. Well, certain THC CBD combinations do certain things. Eric Rieger  Definitely. Someone said I like apples. They may be a Washington Apple could a granny smith apple. It could be a Fuji. On and on and on. There's just a bunch of different apples.Ken Brown  Now. Let's be I mean, let's let everybody know. I mean, you did your thesis on apples. I mean, I think it's I think you've been waiting forever. to unleash your knowledge of apples on everybody.Eric Rieger  I can't wait until we dig into apples. Granny Smith for the win. Or honey crisp, those are great.Ken Brown  You're just gonna give everybody all riled up? Let's move on politics and apples we don't talk about man. Eric Rieger  Now we don't. Ken Brown  You know, last week we talked about cell phones. Eric Rieger  Yeah. Ken Brown  We talked about people using cell phones while they're on the toilet.Eric Rieger  We did we social toilets. Ken Brown  Social toilets, how social is your toilet? Well, I just saw an article that just came out where a recent study looked at how people that take selfies, so they did a cohort study where they looked at people and they had them self evaluate. So it isn't like a randomized placebo controlled trial, but it is kind of very interesting, because we were talking last week about how people will post Instagram pictures and things like that. This study was really interesting, only in the sense that it makes that it's like, oh, duh. Because we always talk about how social media can actually lead to anxiety and depression. This study looked specifically At instagramers and selfies, and what they did is they interviewed It was 164 female students at a public college in the southeastern United States. And what they did is they surveyed a photo manipulation and selfie tapes. And what they realized is that these women were having this body surveillance issue where they wanted to have the best picture the best selfie that they put up there. And most of the participants reported taking between two to five selfies before publishing the one, many of them or I shouldn't say many, but a large proportion that actually had depression would take up to 20 pictures before posting the one. And there's so many filters that you can do now you can take out blemishes, you can augment certain body parts, you can do different things. And what they showed is those who took more selfies or manipulated he pictures had significantly higher levels of depression and anxiety. Eric Rieger  It's not that...Ken Brown  Isn't that interesting? Eric Rieger  It's interesting. But is it really that surprising? Ken Brown  Well, that's the thing. It's not that surprising. And when you sit there and look at this, and when people go, oh my gosh, she's so beautiful. Oh, she's got all these likes or whatever. The reality is, you can't run from yourself. There's a certain disingenuous portion of you that knows you kind of manipulated it.Eric Rieger  Yeah. Without question. And here's a, just a quick side caveat here. Remember, before we had the digital availability of photos, and we just had film, there wasn't the instant gratification of going over and making certain that the picture that was just taken was perfect. You just took it. And then you went to the photo mat at some point. And then it was exciting to go and get the envelope with the pictures and you could thumb through them. And you always wanted it before the girl who might also be in the pictures because she's gonna discard the ones that she doesn't like. Remember that? I mean like you would say, let's go get the pictures. Oh, I'll go with you. And then she grabs them and I can remember, you know, people grabbing the photos like, oh, and then keep that one. What is that? Oh, you don't wanna see that? That's the old way of discarding photos that you didn't want seen. So now you can take them without with it doesn't matter. Does it cost anything take more pictures. So interesting that technologies actually probably lent itself as a as a tool for someone who may have anxiety or depression to kind of make the situation worse. Ken Brown  I mean, I challenge everybodythat if you're gonna post a selfie, Eric Rieger  just do it. Ken Brown  Just do it. Make it real. Do the funny face everything because we spent so much time trying to show this curated life that I have. I want you to believe that my life is this. I mean, one of the fun things about doing this show is we don't edit anything. Eric Rieger  No! Ken Brown  It just happens. Eric Rieger  I just said cigarettes and I meant marijuana. So yeah, no, he did that. But that's not really I promise you, your friends like you. And if you're listening this your friends like you because you're you not because you, you practice or rehearsed a line before you saw them, they just want to hang out with you. I mean, and you should be, you should be confident that that's what people are after.Ken Brown  So this, this particular study essentially just showed that even though so here's what's happening. You have people that are taking multiple selfies, they're trying to find the perfect one. When they post it, then all they do is wait for that dopamine rush of a like, of a like of a like, and then if this one doesn't get as many likes as the other one, then what do I do? Do I go back and do this? The bottom line is we want to be part of a community. We know that deep down when you want that like it's because you want to connect with somebody. Unfortunately, when we have these social media platforms, it really waters it down so that you feel that you get a little dopamine release but you don't get the serotonin which is your true happiness molecule. Dopamine is your pleasure molecule. So you cannot have both going on serotonin and dopamine, because that's how come the whole rock star phenomenon you keep chasing that dopamine high. So what I want to offer to everybody here is take a selfie, don't put a filter on it, send it to us. Connect with us at KBMDhealth on Instagram or on Facebook with a gut check project.Eric Rieger  Gut Check Poject on Facebook Ken Brown  Because I can tell you right now that if you are lonely and you are not connecting with people on a one to one level, it has been proven to be as dangerous as smoking. Smoking the cigarettes. Like you were saying earlier.Eric Rieger  Yeah, I got things inverted there. Ken Brown  The cigarettes...So it's I just find it so fascinating that we have this so you just got done telling me a story about how people smoke or they they seek out marijuana and Now we realized that there is an Endocannabinoid that they're trying to compensate with with 2-ag. Well, dude, any type of stress like that any type of thing. So now we know that by doing selfies, and waiting for that dopamine kick, you're creating anxiety and depression, probably related to a depletion of 2-ag as well.Eric Rieger  Interesting. It really is. I don't, I wonder, I wonder what could be done for somebody to kind of wean themselves of, of hunting for the the digital likes, I really just ignore social media for the most part, certainly on a personal level, I don't find it rewarding. In some instances, it's kind of depressing. I like going to social media when I feel like I want to catch up with someone or that honestly, we need to find a new way to to make sure that our audience or our patients is are getting the right information for Atrantil etc. But I don't, I don't look for it to give me any type of gratification and but I think that I'm maybe the anomaly for someone who's connected like that there's maybe even my kids who don't necessarily maintain their Instagram. I know that they keep up with their friends on it. And they see pictures, and people share them. So how would you wean yourself from that kind of that kind of environmen if you already didn't have the biological systems in place to help you do that?Ken Brown  Dude, that is a great question. I'm not much of a social media person. So I'm not really down with that. We're gonna find a psychiatrist or a psychologist that specializes in this. There's that great YouTube video, where I told you, you made your kids watch it. I made my kids watch it, where it's a Harvard psychologist discussing the fact that when we give kids phones and they get into social media that that dopamine release...When somebody has a hard time at school, your seventh grader has a hard time at school. They come home And they're upset about something and then you let them have their phone. That is exactly like giving them the keys to the liquor cabinet. You had a tough day. Why don't you go cope with it by having a few vodka sodas or whatever. And we think that's crazy. But we don't think anything of let your kid go to the room, sit on their phone and go into a spiral, because they're not part of the Snapchat group that that they were excluded from because X, Y and Z. It's, it's really from a parenting standpoint, it's really hard to sit there and walk that fine line between I don't want my children to be the weird kids that don't have any social media involvement. But I don't want to allow that giving them the keys to the liquor cabinet, where they're just trying to supplement their dopamine kicks with how many likes they have because there's a lot of science going on with this.Eric Rieger  Yea and true confession I think that we screwed up its parents that I'm talking about me and my wife. Well, we, we gave the phone the phone breached in probably far too early. I mean, that's just that's just the truth. We've done a good job of monitoring how well I say we're doing a good job. Maybe they'll maybe they'll hear this and they'll laugh. Ken Brown  I don't think you guys. I don't think he has waited too long when I saw gages...His,you know I went to his one year birthday party and you gave him the iPhone 2. That's not early! Eric Rieger  He's not quite that young but yeah. But, I mean, looking back, I wish that we had had held off longer than we did. I don't think that we did anybody any favors by doing that. Heck, I wish I had never gotten into a smartphone. It's almost like a weird codependency issue now, like, I want to get to the point where I can just go back to a flip phone and no phone at all. But...Ken Brown  There's always Yeah,Eric Rieger  Like most I mean, I don't think that I'm alone. I mean, I know I'm not because we see it every day with the patients just before we take him back to let them go to sleep. They want to they want Want to take that last time before they go to sleep? And before they stow their phone? That's it's very common every single day.Ken Brown  But we're just keep seeing new and new data like this particular study. Everybody else that looks at those pictures probably goes Oh, she's so pretty, she's got an amazing thing. Eric Rieger  And the person who's in it probably hates the picture Ken Brown  And the person who's in it is just critiquing themselves and they're becoming and having more anxiety and depression.Eric Rieger  Oh, yeah, it's and it's it's, it's unfortunate. It's not fair.Ken Brown  I had a remember our guest with short path wealth. Tim Tim power. He he posted something where it was like the next time you're having a bad day. Remember this is going on. And it was a picture of 250 Amish men carrying a barnEric Rieger  Yeah. Yeah,Ken Brown  I'm like there's easier ways to move that barn. But that's cool. Eric Rieger  There are and they're not doing it, but they're probably not nearly susceptible to depression.Ken Brown  I looked at that and I was like, that's community. That's coming together that's busting your ass that's getting out there. There's a certain amount of okay. Yeah, there's easier ways to do it. But okay. Eric Rieger  The initial reaction is to laugh. The truth is they're probably pretty happy. You know, isn't that wild, but it's just true.Ken Brown  Yeah. I thought that was interesting.Eric Rieger  Yeah, it is. It is interesting. So what else you got?Ken Brown  Nothin? Um, we can get into a few things. You got water?Eric Rieger  I'm having a little austin texas Waterloo, Ken Brown  Ah a little Waterloo. Would you like to sip from it from this cool, straw.Eric Rieger  I mean, I traditionally don't use...Ken Brown  No don't do that at all, because that's what we're going to get into right now. Eric Rieger  That is rude as hell.Ken Brown  That almost killed you. Eric Rieger  I did not know that. Ken Brown  Ah, well, let me tell you what. So we uh, we have the distinct advantage of course we have our little our secret weapon.Eric Rieger  If you're just listening. He just offered me a straw and threw it across the room just so you know.Ken Brown  Well, here's why. So You know, we have our, our amazing graduate student that always helps us out. She sent me some incredible articles. Two of them came together. It's super geeky, hang in there with me, please. I'm going to get into what's gonna sound like a lot of crazy words, but this will blow your mind. I cannot believe and she sent the email. She's like, this will blow your mind. I cannot believe that. We have not talked about this yet. And I'm like, okay, two articles recently published that holy cow Hang in there, because it's gonna sound like, well, pretty much you're screwed. But I'm going to give you a solution at the variant.Eric Rieger  I can't wait. Ken Brown  All right.Eric Rieger  Yeah. Ken Brown  And probably most relevant for you, Mr. Eric, Mr. crna. I'm telling you, you probably need to hear this more than anybody more than anybody, anybody more than anybody. More than anybody more than anybody.Unknown Speaker  I'm all ears now. Ken Brown  All right. So, all right now we're getting into some serious science. You know, I love to geek out about this stuff, and hopefully I'll be able to hopefully I interpret it well enough. And hopefully we'll be able to make some sense of this. But what we're going to talk about is a recent review on the toxic effects of Di-2-ethylhexyl phthalate.Eric Rieger  Yeah, that usually doesn't come up very often.Ken Brown  Or DEHP. Which From now on I will refer to as DEHP. As inJohnny Depp, but it's DEHP, so before you sit there and go, Oh, I've never you know, this doesn't pertain to me. Oh It really does because as it turns out, DEHP DEHP is the most common member of phthalates. Now, phthalates are mainly used as plasticizers. Eric Rieger  Here we go. Ken Brown  There's substances added to Plastic, specifically PVC to increase the flexibility so that death straw that I just tried to offer you filled with DEHP. Okay, what it does is it softens the PVC so that anything is flexible. Eric Rieger  Okay. Ken Brown  So you start thinking well, like due to the ubiquity of plastics everywhere. The majority of people are exposed to some level of phthalates. For example, the CDC actually took a large cohort of people, and they looked for the metabolites of ballots, and everyone had them in their urine. Eric Rieger  I'm sure. I'm sure they do. Ken Brown  It's almost unavoidable over 2 million tons of this stuff is is produced worldwide. And I don't know why. I don't know how we've not discussed this already. Why this has not been talked about. Do you know anything about this? Eric Rieger  No, I don't know anything about specifically this particular compound. What I'm really thinking about right now is the abundance or ubiquity of all of the plastics that are are flexible now I mean, I'm just thinking if we're going to panic, your water is certainly in a modern home is is usually channeled by PVC. And that would be I mean, it's...Ken Brown  well as long as it's PVC until it becomes flexible. You're not getting DEHP.Eric Rieger   Okay...Ken Brown  But this is why it's really relevant to you. Eric Rieger  Oh okay? Ken Brown  And to me but more to you. Eric Rieger  All right...Ken Brown  Guess what? Tt's especially used in medical devices.Eric Rieger  Oo like endotracheal tubes? Ken Brown  Oh way more than that endotracheal tubes, IV bags. Yeah, keep going. You're getting it.Eric Rieger  Goodness gracious IV tubing IV bags, you could the catheters that we start the IV. Man, the anything that would do seldinger technique with is going to utilize that right?Ken Brown  100% Eric Rieger  Holy crap.Ken Brown  Holy crap. It's everywhere in the medical industry. Eric Rieger  Probably the non latex gloves that we have to substitute for people who have latex allergies.Ken Brown  All of a sudden you start looking this you're like, whoa, wait a minute...Eric Rieger  Nasal canulas! Ken Brown  Nasal canulas. There you go peritoneal catheters, you name it, you know, typical catheters, urinary catheters, anything, because everything we use on humans has to be flexible. It has to be able to be malleable and stuff. So as it turns out, you and I are exposed to tons of this.Eric Rieger  Yeah, every single day, every single patientKen Brown  You more than me, Eric Rieger  Yea probably so.Ken Brown  And then we're sitting there doing this with a patient. So.Eric Rieger  Interesting. Ken Brown  Yeah. But you know, what, if everybody's listening, and they're just like, well, I don't work in the medical industry. Too bad as it turns out, packaged foods, those bags that are flexible, so it's not a stif little thing. packaged foods, it's in packaged foods, it's in mattresses. It's in cosmetics, personal care products, high concentrations in fatty meats, and even bread. Eric Rieger  Why is that? Ken Brown  It's just it gets concentrated in fatty environments. And so when they when they had the plastic bags around the bread, the bread soaks it up. Now we're eating it. Eric Rieger  Hmm. Ken Brown  So when we take in this DEHP, the only thing cool about it is that it gets converted into something that I'm going to start using as my stage name from now on, it gets converted into Di-n-octyl phthalate otherwise known as DNOP.Eric Rieger  DNOP.Ken Brown  DNOP now, DJ DNOP coming on.Eric Rieger  Here on the Gut Check Project here's your host DNOP.Ken Brown  Yeah. So why do you care about DNOP? DNOP coming on! Well, as it turns out, look at what this little molecule actually does to our bodies.Eric Rieger  Uh oh.Ken Brown  Uh oh is right. I mean, when I was when I was reading this, I'm just like, What in the world? We are, and this is a worldwide thing. This is not US. This is not race dependent. This is not anything. Now. I'm going to spend little time here and I'm just gonna tell you what, well, I'm scared for you because you're around IV catheters, you do this all the time.  Eric Rieger  A lot yeah.Ken Brown  Yea. All right, DHEP. It's best known as an endocrine disrupter. What's the name of the mindshare? Jolene? Eric Rieger  Oh Jolene Brighton? Ken Brown  Yeah. And then yeah, so anyway, so that yet, I'm sure that she's probably going, duh, we know about this. This is one of those things where you're just like, I guess the bandwidth is only so big, but we can get. I bet you a lot of functional medicine doctors are just like going, Oh, my gosh, we've been talking about this forever. So all right. It's an endocrine disrupter, what that means is it will alter the function of the endocrine system exposure in utero. So this is what's really crazy. If you're pregnant, and you expose your fetus to this, it does tremendous things. One of the things that it's that it does is it actually decreases testosterone production and messes with the estrogen cycle. In fact, they have studies that have shown that exposure in utero leads to lifelong testosterone issues. They have taken adult rats, and they looked at them when they were exposed in utero. And they have shown that their testosterone is markedly lower, just from one exposure in utero, for their whole life. Eric Rieger  I wonder if it blunts like teste development and that's probably why interesting.Eric Rieger  Interesting. Ken Brown  They have all kinds of different reasons why like this, these articles are super sciencey. And they get into the molecular mechanism of it all. And I'll get into a little bit more about this, but I'm going to show you this thing is going to blow your mind because what they did is they they looked at this and they showed persistent low testosterone in adult rats studies. Now rats fed a diet with DEHP also have serious lifelong thyroid issues. So the theory on this is it's an epigenetic phenomenon. So in other words, if you expose a fetus in utero to DEHP, which is everywhere, then it can turn on an epigenetic phenomenon, meaning that there are certain genes that get turned on. And then that becomes the new norm. That's how come they proved that you can sit there and have low testosterone for the rest of your life. That's how come you can end up with thyroid issues when you become older, because that transcription of the genes has been turned on. Ken Brown  You need to that's the epigenetic phenomena. Epigenetics means that you have genes you're predisposed but then if you have an environmental factor that comes in, then that actually turns that gene on. Well, as it turns out, DHEP does this to people significantly in utero. So they looked at elderly people and it suggests that insulin resistance is actually due to DEHP or DEHP sorry, so insulin resistance so diabetes. Chinese studies have looked at children and their BMI goes way up when they have higher levels of this metabolite in their urine. There's all kinds of studies on this where it's like, oh my gosh, you mean the incidence of diabetes incidence of thyroid, the incidence of hormonal issues is going up? So that's one example, endocrine disrupter. So I thought about this when I read this. I thought about you when I read this. Eric Rieger  Okay. Ken Brown  What you think would happen if I give homage to do you remember the article we did about liver failure?Eric Rieger  I do remember gavaging CBD Yes,Ken Brown  Go back to our episode 26, go to Episode 26. And we talked about garaging which means that you're going to stick a tube down a mouse and put in copious amounts of... Eric Rieger  The title was CBD causes liver failure,Ken Brown  So they gavaged some poor rats. And can you guess what happened to them?Eric Rieger  With that?Ken Brown  Yeah, with with basically DEHP. DEHP I'm I'm just going to call it DEHP from now on. Eric Rieger  Well, I think that if you're going to gavage DEHP and since nothing is sounded like it with the favorable I would imagine they exploded that they turned into robots, but maybe not as bad. Ken Brown  No, it's worse. Eric Rieger  Oh, okay.Ken Brown  It's worse. What it did. Cause testicular atrophy just shrunk their testicles. Eric Rieger  Wow.Ken Brown  Basically made them not men. So I was. I mean, you and I've talked about this, but if you ever end up in a situation where your testicles are too big.Eric Rieger  Oh yeah. Ken Brown  And I find you chewing on some IV tubing, I'll know why. Eric Rieger  You'll know why Yeah. Ken Brown  I'll know why. Because you're trying to control the size. Eric Rieger  You don't want them too big. It's craziness. Ken Brown  You just sit there nawing on some IV tubes.Eric Rieger  Yeah, yeah, it's gonna get some some space in the pants.Ken Brown  I mean, think about that you they can actually show that it causes such a disruption in the testosterone pathway and the hormonal access pathway that you will actually end up with testicular atrophy. You will not have testicles.Eric Rieger  What's interesting is I'm curious how, how prevalent is it beyond the those of us in the healthcare environment for people to be exposed to DEHP Ken Brown  So glad that you asked that. We're going to go through and now we're going to talk about so so far I've kind of focused on the thing that that concern me Sure. testosterone and you know, the Eric Rieger  Work environment? Ken Brown  Yeah, work environment. But it also looks like it. It does all kinds of stuff. It'll mess with ovaries. This is really interesting. It seems to increase endometriosis.Eric Rieger  Oh, wow. Ken Brown  Yeah.Eric Rieger  That's terrible.Ken Brown  So I see a lot of patients that have a ton of pain. And they did a study where they looked at Indian women and that had endometriosis. And they checked their DEHP metabolites significantly higher than their non endometriosis counterparts. Eric Rieger  Goodness gracious. Ken Brown  Yeah. And it appears that the reason why that happens is due to our old friend oxidative stress.Eric Rieger  Wow,Ken Brown  Just park that one and let's Let's come back to that for a moment. Eric Rieger  Okay. Ken Brown  So it's due to oxidative oxidative stress. Oh, this is this is really fun. This is neat. So as it turns out, it's nephrotoxic.Eric Rieger  None of this sounds good. Ken Brown  It's Nephrotoxic. Eric Rieger  That's bad for your kidneys.Ken Brown  Holy cow. Now they decided to look at dialysis patients. Guess who gets exposed to all Kinds of medical tubing? Eric Rieger  I mean, they're getting they're getting new tubing every time they go in.Eric Rieger  Every single time and most dialysis patients are three times a week for four plus hours each visit.Ken Brown  How did I not hear this? They've looked at this. dialysis patients have some of the highest DEHP levels metabolites. Ken Brown  Think of that dialysis setup and all of the tubings that go into the cartridge. Remember the cartridge that goes on there with the new membrane, all of the flexible tubing that's on there. Ken Brown  It's crazy my dad did peritoneal dialysis and I mean my gosh, it's it's tubing that's in there. You're bathing yourself in this And I'm just telling you that it can already mess with your endocrine system, it can already be nephrotoxic. So if you had any chance of recovering your kidneys, then you're just you're stacking the deck against yourself. Eric Rieger  Okay? And maybe we'll get to solution here in a moment. But at the moment, I'm curious, what are the alternatives outside of what we're doing now, I guess.Ken Brown  We will get there. Okay. And that's something that we're going to do. We're going to develop the KBMD bubble to be like the bubble boy. Yeah, we're gonna we're gonna launch that. We're not gonna do that. We're gonna we're gonna get into all those. All right, but let me if you're not already scared enough. Yeah. And you're just going, Okay, well, you know what? Screw that. I don't really care about my testosterone. I don't care about endometriosis. I'm not on dialysis. Not a big deal. Well, there's one thing that we all have. There's one thing that you and I talk about all the time, the gut brain access. Yeah. So as it turns out, we all have a gut brain. Yep, your brain takes a hit Also. Eric Rieger  I'm sure. Ken Brown  Your brain takes a hit also, essentially If it's exposed now I'm going to keep saying the same thing over and over. The younger you are when you're exposed, the more damage it does. And I'm going to get to this because spoiler alert autism. We're going to get to that a little bit. But so your brain takes a hit. Also, it can disrupt the normal fetal brain development, it appears to mess with the hippocampus. So the hippocampus is the area of the brain that's super important for memory and spatial recognition. Very important. And it's, it's for the spatial navigation. So if you can get through the fetal exposure of it, then throughout your life, the more exposure you have to it, so in other words, the more flexible plastics you're exposed to it does something really interesting. It decreases your BDNF. Eric Rieger  Oh, no. Ken Brown  Yes. Do you remember what BDNF is? Eric Rieger  The brain...goodness gracious I don't remember exactly what it stands for but it's exactly but that's exactly what we talked about for brain plasticity. Ken Brown  Correct. Eric Rieger  Yeah. Ken Brown  Its brain derived neurotrophic factor. That's right. Eric Rieger  Sorry about that. Ken Brown  No, it's but you and I have we've always talked about this because remember when we heard David Perlmutter give a talk at Helio Fx?Eric Rieger  That's exactly who I was thinking about.Ken Brown  He was talking about how coffee fruit had a very small study where it showed it increased BDNF. Well, as it turns out, BDNF can be increased by a lot of different polyphenols. BDNF is the protein in your brain that allows new neural connections. Eric Rieger  Yeah, all the DEHP I've been exposed to made me forget what BDNF actually stood for.Ken Brown  And we also believe that one of the reasons why there's a lot of dementia is because we lose our BDNF and we do not grow new cells, right. So as it turns out, BDNF decreases. Oh, it appears that it decreases because of reactive oxygen species developing in the brain leading to oxidative stress.Eric Rieger  So it sounds to me like what DEHP is if I'm connecting the dots here is going to be catalysts for oxidative stress. And so what we're going to need to do is if we can't eliminate DEHP from our environment, what can we do to mitigate the oxidative stress? Correct? Ken Brown  Correct. We're going to get to that. All right. Yeah, you're you. You've already you've already made the links. So if you're, if you're still listening, and you want to learn how to do that, what Eric just described is exactly what I want to tell you how we're going to do that. We talked about depression and anxiety. They looked at a study, I mean, I just cannot believe how much data is on this stuff. They looked at a study at pubertal females they did some mouse models and then they correlated it with some human studies as it turns out, the more DEHP DEHP that you're exposed to you have more anxiety and depression.Eric Rieger  Golly Man, what a it's a large manifest of a bunch of different things. And I don't know that you can escape flexible plastics. We just you just said if PVC were flexible, then maybe would have it actually was reminded, as I thought about that in our last home. When we, when they ran the cold and hot when we built the home, they ran flexible tubing on off of a big spool blue for cold and red for hot because they don't run pipe through foundations the same way anymore. No down here in Texas. Ken Brown  oh, because it shifts.Eric Rieger  Yeah, it can shift Ken Brown  it can bust yeah Eric Rieger  So many times they run it overhead through, you know, the whatever they call it the attic or whatever. But essentially, that's flexible plastic. And if you're drinking water from home, it's going to I would imagine it's leaching in there, correct? That's how it's happening.Ken Brown  Well, once again, the CDC looked at people and almost everybody has the metabolites in the urine. It is and it's not it's worldwide. Um, alright, so we'll finish up with I mean, clearly it's already scary, right. So... Eric Rieger  Yeah, definitely. Ken Brown  There's also the article goes on to a molecular reasons why how it messes with the liver and it messes with the heart. And, oh, it's linked to autism. The autism and they Kind of briefly talked about it in this article and fortunately, our graduate student knew that I'd be more interested. So she sent me a follow up article recently published even, I mean, these things are all being published like a week ago, like we get them in, like pre transcript. She's amazing. And so she sent me another article that actually talked about this specific thing. But now it's right in our wheelhouse, right in our wheelhouse. So don't be scared. Because now we know that we have this ubiquitous plasticizer that clearly is very toxic. We know it's toxic, we know what's there. And it's used in healthcare all over the place.Eric Rieger  Everywhere. Ken Brown  So right now there is a movement currently going to try and get rid of this, we know that it's bad. So over the past 10 years, people have been trying to do this, but since it's everywhere, it's gonna take some time to get out of there. And it's sad because as you know, sometimes medicine is not the fastest to change for some of this stuff, because of contracts and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So we're always trying to find so right now there is this movement to try and use PVC free alternative polymers like polyethylene. So there's hope we're moving away from it. So when you said, Well, what, what can we do, but while we're here, I'm going to try and help you out with this. So I wanted to dig deeper in this because we know that autism is such a hot topic. If you're a parent with a child with the autism spectrum disorder, ASD, then you'll do anything to try and try and help...Eric Rieger  It's your kid.Ken Brown  It happens to be a passion of mine, or at least a passion in the sense that my aha moments of seeing some of my autistic patients improve mentally when we went when we fixed our gut. Yeah, I mean, I see it and so I'm very passionate about this. Here's what's really neat, this article. I mean, I just, it's almost like some of these. It's, it's like, I want to go and hug some of these scientists. So the whole article goes into how DEHP predisposes and leads to autism spectrum disorder related to drumroll. The microbiome.Eric Rieger  Microbiome! Ken Brown  Yea.Eric Rieger  Nice! Ken Brown  So we've we've these articles hit on everything that I love to talk about.Eric Rieger  So heal or protect yourself and the damage DEHP by taking care of your gut.Ken Brown  So this is so cool. So studies have shown that exposure in utero, in utero to toxic chemicals can lead to dysbiosis in the fetus. Dysbiosis by definition is basically a change in the microbiome, but not for the better. So you can have too much of one thing not enough of another, you don't have enough diversity. dysbiosis by definition just means it's not right. your microbiome your microbiome is super important. In fact, a recent study showed that children with autism spectrum disorder had higher concentrations of DEHP DEHP, but more importantly, they also looked at fecal samples of these kids with autism, and they had higher levels of a metabolite called P kressel.Eric Rieger  P Kressel? Ken Brown  This is how dialed in, we're getting into this. Now. Now we're talking about something that they looked at these autistic kids. And they said you have more of this plasticizer in your body. In addition to that, we're going to look at your microbial content, you've got dysbiosis, and you've got this one metabolite called p kressel. So as it turns out, when you have this dysbiosis, the bacterial composition can either be harmful or beneficial. So these scientists show that the link between bacterial metabolites and neuro developmental disorders are taking place. So they actually then use that knowledge, took it to mice, gave them DEHP, and then analyzed their microbiome. So the whole shift went from, oh, it does all this end organ damage. So I just told you that if you gavage yourself, you're gonna end up with testicular atrophy, I just told you, you're gonna have endocrine disruption, you're going to end up with liver problems, heart problems. Now these guys are looking at it going well, wait a minute, we're exposed to this all the time. Why do some people get it? Why do some people don't?Eric Rieger  Yeah, they're controlling their inflammatory.Ken Brown  They're controlling their inflammatory process. Super cool. And so what they did is the most important thing, when they looked at these mice is that the older mice with a more diverse microbiome were completely protected from the effects of DEHP. Eric Rieger  Interesting. Ken Brown  The most important factor was that and they showed that there has been studies in autism spectrum disorder, where an overabundance of a Clostridium species was linked to autism. So possibly by not having the age protection where you developed a diverse microbiome your entire life, and not having a full microbial diversity to do the post biotic metabolism, of these in virus mental toxins. That may be why when we expose children to certain things that could turn on the epigenetic phenomenon, or more importantly, these bacteria are now producing this P kressel. Which then shows that they're being exposed to DEHP, which could lead to autism spectrum disorder. Eric Rieger  Wow. Ken Brown  It's the first time I've come across an article like that. I'm like, holy cow, how in the world that I just read this article on plasticizers. And she found this incredible article linking the microbiome to this. I mean, I mean, this is, I mean, it's really hard to not geek out on this. We know that the bacteria your microbiome, actually does an incredible job of breaking down toxic metabolites of all kinds of things, including DEHP. Now we call these toxic metabolites and we call these different things. xeno biotics, that's spelled with an x xeno biotics are molecules that get through your body and then your own microbial background, your mind microbiome breaks them down. And if you have an appropriate microbiome, then you can, your body can be exposed to some stuff and handle it, right. But when we start exposing kids in utero, you're stacking the deck against them right off the bat. That's what's super scary. So one of the things is that you can show a dose dependent process where they even took these mice that were that were impervious to some of the effects of it. But at some point, the bacteria got overwhelmed. And then the DEHP cause dysbiosis and then they got sick. So once you took enough of it in, then you couldn't keep up with it. It's really I mean, it's, it's, it's dose dependent. So you can't just say, Oh, I'm gonna let my microbiome do everything. You still have to realize that at some point, you can overwhelm it. So just keep that in mind. So taking together DEHP can be neutralized in a mature diverse microbiome. So if p kressel is produced this has been linked to autism and they showed an overabundance of a particular Clostridium will actually convert and they even went so far as to show we've determined that the amino acid tyrosine will be converted  by p Kressall by this Clostridium species. Whoa! Thik stuff. I'm sorry, I threw all this at you, but I just got super geeked out when I was reading it, and I just found it fascinating. So just to summarize, flexible plastic like that straw that I tried to kill you with has a compound in it called DEhp. DEHP gets converted to D NOP! D NOP. And that hurts you. And what we do know is that most of the end organ damage happens because of oxidative stress. Eric Rieger  Wow. But you can control that. Ken Brown  We can control that. Yeah. How would you control it? Eric Rieger  Well, you you hit on a few things. You want to make certain that your microbiome is certainly well diverse.Ken Brown  One! Eric Rieger  You could do that with a reasonable diet, you can do that with making certain shift good exercise you could also do that by giving your body the appropriate level of polyphenols that it would help make that happen. Just so happens Atrantil I think, would be a great proanthocyanidin polyphenol to to assist in that. You also want to be able to handle the stress load. So handling the stress load the oxidative stress. Allowing your body to not be overstimulated from stress would be something that you could do to to do that. So polyphenols, by some level, handled that directly but not having your body overstressed to be something that you would want a healthy endocannabinoid system. And that way you could handle stress and oxidative stress wouldn't play into more of a cascading effect that turns into an inflammatory process for your organs and tissues. So starting with those three things diet polyphenol intake exercise and actually four CBD, I think would be a good start.Ken Brown  Yeah. You're exactly right. So while we're on it, one of the things I'm super proud of, is thatEric Rieger  Oh, look at that.Ken Brown  We have the KBMD health subscription box. We do. Let's unbox it. This is this month box just arrived Sarah Jean sent this to me. I actually subscribe to my own box. And now you're gonna fairlight I'm gonna let you just pick the ingredients out here. This is the box. Your health has arrived. We'll start out with our main products here. So basically, the box comes like this. My kids w

Introducing Womens Careers Expert Bettina Arnafjall Today's guest joining us on the Join Up Dots podcast is a huge delight for me, as once again she was a listener of the show who was inspired to take action. So inspired was she that we worked together through the Join Up Dots business programme,  to find the business that she wanted to bring forward to the world. Bettina Arnafjall is the founder of the womenscareerlift, where she helps ladies (and a few men) to really give themselves a huge lift in their career. You see it's not just a catchy name, but says exactly what she does through women's career coaching,  Resume review and writing, Cover letter review and writing, job interview preparation and  salary negotiation preparation As she says "I don't have a typical career path. I studied translation science for French, Italian and English but never actually worked as a translator. After only two years of work experience as a team assistant and customer support agent, I was promoted to be a team manager. I managed several teams of three to as many as thirty employees with vastly different cultural and educational backgrounds. Now the time has come for me to share my many years of experience and help you with your applications. But I noticed there are a lot of women around me who feel like that they are not being given the same opportunities as men because they are women. Whether this is the reality or just their perception, I couldn't say. In any case, I have noticed things that women could do to improve their chances and I want to share my experience to help women with the next step of their careers. I did have several eye opening experiences however with regards to differences in salary expectations and negotiations between men and women. During my many interviews I observed that men usually ask for a much higher salary than women. I actually almost made this mistake myself at some point in my career. Luckily I asked some men for advice and then went into the negotiations with a higher sum than I would have asked for. Guess what: it worked! So now with this amazing insight to what works in the recruitment process, she had the skills to make things happen but how did she do it? And where has been the biggest obstacle to overcome as she brought her dream to the world? Well let's find out as we bring onto the show to start joining up dots with the one and only Bettina Arnafjall Show Highlights During the show we discussed such deep weighty subjects with Bettina Arnafjall such as: We share the steps that Bettina first took to get her business off the ground by understanding what she really had to offer the world. Why it's so important to potentially talk to your current employees when you first start your own business to check they are ok with you doing it. Bettina reveals why for her business, referrals are so important for continued growth. Dont forget about word of mouth. and lastly...... Why Google Classroom is such a brilliant resource to get an online course up and running for free. How To Connect With Bettina Arnafjall Website Facebook Instagram LinkedIn Return To The Top Of Bettina Arnafjall If you enjoyed this episode with Bettina, why not check out other inspirational chat with Clayton Morris, Dorie Clark, and the amazing Niall Doherty You can also check our extensive podcast archive by clicking here – enjoy Interview Transcription Of Bettina Arnafjall Interview David Ralph 0:01 Once upon a time there was a guy with a dream a dream. He's Jobs for himself online and have a kick ass life working when he wanted him where he wanted across the world. Little did he know that dream would lead him into a world of struggle, burnout and debt. Until he found the magic ingredient and knows drunk was became a thing of the past, of course, was bad person. And now My dream is to make things happen. for you. Welcome to Join Up Dots. Intro 0:31 When we're young, we have an amazing positive outlook about how great life is going to be but somewhere along the line we forget to dream and end up settling. Join Up Dots features amazing people who refuse to give up and chose to go after their dreams. This is your blueprint for greatness. So here's your host live from the back of his garden in the UK. David Ralph. David Ralph 0:56 Yes, hello there. Good morning to you. Good morning to you. Good morning. Hello and welcome to Join Up Dots. Thank you so much for being here. I am all excited today because but me, this is a special show. This is one of those shows where well you'll find out as we proceed through somebody Listen, somebody took action, and he's now rocking and rolling across the world now, our guest joining us on the podcast is, as I say a huge delight for me as she was a listener of the show, who was inspired to take action. So I'm inspired was she that we work together through the Join Up Dots business programme, to find the business that she wanted to bring forward to the world. She's the founder of the women's career Lyft where she helps ladies and a few men she says she's not a man hater, but I'm not sure do really give themselves a huge lift in their career. You say it's not just a catchy name, but says exactly what she does through women's career coaching resume resume early in the morning, resume review and writing cover letter review and writing, job interview preparation And salary negotiation preparation. And she says I don't have a typical career path. I studied translation science for French, Italian and English, but never actually worked as a translator after only two years of work experience. As a team assistant and customer support agent. I was promoted to be a team manager and I manage several teams of three to as many as 30 employees with vastly different cultural and educational backgrounds. Now, the time has come for me to share my many years of experience and help you yes with your job applications. But she noticed that there were a lot of women out there who felt like they weren't being given the same opportunities as men, because they're women. Now, whether this is reality or just the perception she couldn't say, and in any case, she's noticed things that women could do to improve their chances, and she now wants to share the experience to help women with the next step of their careers. She says, I did have several eye opening experiences However, with regards to different is in salary expectations and negotiations between men and women. During my many interviews, I observed that men usually ask for a much higher salary than women. I actually almost made this mistake myself at some point in my career. Luckily, I asked some men for advice and then went into the negotiations with a higher some, but I would have asked for and guess what it worked. So now with this amazing insight to what works in the recruitment process, she's got the skills to make things happen, because how did she do it? How did she build her business? And where has been the biggest obstacles to overcome as she brings her dream to the world? Well, that's why now as we bring on to the show, to stop Join Up Dots with the one and only Bettina. Morning Bettina, how are you? Womens Careers Expert 3:49 I'm good. Good morning, David. That was good with it. You managed David Ralph 3:57 it that is that is honestly Is that 99%? Right? 100% right 200% right because your surname looks nothing like I've got you my thing. I've been going ostrich feathers yet, Is that good? Womens Careers Expert 4:15 I would say 99%. My surname is from the Faroe Islands. My husband is from the Faroe Islands and you actually put a little bit more of air on the pronunciation since David Ralph 4:28 I can't do that. I can't do that. I'm just gonna call you Bettina for the rest of it. It's a delight to have you on the show because yes, we work together through the process and I want to go back right to the very early stages because Miss I have to say to the listeners, this is a moment I never thought would happen because when Bettina first connected with me, she was so secret squirrel, she was so Oh, my boss is gonna find out all the HR teams gonna find out. You were at totally different person, you would never have come onto a podcast and really put yourself out there, would you? Womens Careers Expert 5:05 Yeah, well, it's because we have a company policy. And I mean, I'm still in a full time job. And the company policy says that you need to get approval for any side business. So I needed to figure out what I wanted to do and then get the approval. And once I had the approval, I could go full, full steam. David Ralph 5:24 Now, of course, you going full steam, which is great, but for the listeners out there, is this something that they've got to be aware of up because I would have just gone? I'll just do it, do it and don't tell anyone. It's fine. You know, they don't care about you outside the office. But maybe I'm wrong. Maybe more companies nowadays do care about what you're doing outside the office? Womens Careers Expert 5:45 Well, I guess it depends. I mean, in our company, it just is written in the word contract that you actually have to tell them if you want to do a side business and then they give you a little letter, it says you're allowed to do that. And then you're fine. David Ralph 5:58 Yeah, but who reads contract No one reads it. So how are you gonna know I say, anything that comes in front of me, because you don't want them to go up to the HR people and bingo, you know, oh, I'm starting this new business and red flags and warning signs flush out when they could have just done it because they weren't aware how how's the way that they can tiptoe around this? Womens Careers Expert 6:21 I guess most companies won't really care. I know that in in my company, it is like that, because people who work that could do something that is competing with the actual business, and then it would be an issue. So I mean, just if there's nothing in the contract, and nobody ever talks about things like that, I mean, just go and do it. In my case, I had read my contract contract, so I need to make sure that everything was in order before I got started. And I mean, if you really want to promote your business and promote it on like LinkedIn and Facebook and Instagram and all over the place, there are chances that people will find out So be open and honest from the start, right? David Ralph 7:03 I think so be open and honest. It's not the way I operate. But I think he's good advice. I remember when I started Join Up Dots, right, the very beginning, I was so embarrassed by it. It was literally and I've said this in a few podcast, but it would have been easier for me to say that I was a pornography addict, you know that that would that would have been understandable. But it opened up so many questions up, you know, why are you doing that? What was wrong with the last bit earlier and I just saw that secretly tiptoed around, even though I had this voice I was putting out into the world. It's strange, isn't it? Because online business is so powerful. And even now I talked to guys and ladies who have created big businesses, but they're not visible in it at all. They're absolutely hidden because they don't feel comfortable enough to put themselves in there. Womens Careers Expert 7:56 Yeah, I guess this a big step to take in. I mean, knows it took me a little bit to get there but it took you a long while David Ralph 8:03 just by Unknown Speaker 8:08 year David Ralph 8:09 365 days of tiptoeing around you know how many episodes i'd released by that time before you finally did it. So so let's get into that moment though. Because what was what's wrong with your job? Why do so many people now want to start side hustlers but don't do anything about it? You know what, what's the difference between you, myself and so many people but they actually do because I speak to so many people that go Yeah, I really love this. This is really what I want and I don't do the first thing about it. What was different about you? Womens Careers Expert 8:46 I guess it's not really that is something you know, wrong with my job and I don't like my job because my job is cool, and I like it. But I just felt this need to do more and I felt this need to help Women in some way and I figured out that in my job, I cannot really do it to the extent that I want to do it. So, I started thinking about what I can do I also move from my team manager role then into more like project manager role because it could have been a conflict of interest, you know, me being a team manager and then coaching people with job applications and so on. so on. So, yeah, when I had done that, I started focusing on you know, what can I do for other ladies, I discussed it with friends. I helped them a little bit was there Java applications turned out that it really worked well. And then I did a little test run and yeah, figured out that can also work with strangers. So then I thought, now we can get started. David Ralph 9:50 with that. I love the fact that you tested you pre test DG before you even got websites and profiles and URLs. You already stepped into helping other people to confirm your talent, your skill your superpower. Did it surprise you how rubbish people actually are at the things that you can do naturally? Well? Womens Careers Expert 10:16 Oh, it always surprises me. I mean, I have I don't want to sound arrogant, but I have many things that I'm good at. So when I look around, and this is both now, you know, with the job applications, but also sometimes I'm in the day job. I'm surprised how hard some people find it to do certain things when they come really easily to me. I guess it's just because I figured out what my strengths are. And now I'm focusing on my strengths and building on them and not really, you know, trying to push through walls where, yeah, it doesn't make any sense. David Ralph 10:51 I remember back in the day, I was very good at helping people do their resumes in SC bees, and they would come to me and say, how baby could you go through it? I'll go Yeah. And I changed things. And I've moved this bit here and move up it and increase certain things. Yeah, not lying, not lying, but just kind of, you know, emphasising certain points, and they would go off and get these amazing jobs. And when it was me, I couldn't do it myself. I couldn't do that sort of beat myself up CV writing even though I could do it for other people. And it's a kind of it's a mindset that I think most people have a have a problem in of actually boosting their own career prospects don't like Womens Careers Expert 11:35 Yeah, because we don't like talking about ourselves. Then we feel like we're, I know you do. David Ralph 11:41 Yeah, I do. I love it. I love the business out of it, you know? Womens Careers Expert 11:47 Yeah, but most people don't. So you know, they they feel kind of embarrassed to talk about their achievements and their strengths and what they do well, so then they will stick to very formal resume and cover letter and formal way of presenting themselves where they hide between and behind a lot of jargon and phrases and will not really put their personality and their skills out there. David Ralph 12:14 And so with that, because obviously we're going to talk about, you know, how you actually started the business and stuff like this is interesting to me. So, can you bring humour into a CV and resume? Can you make it sparkle? Because Yeah, most of them I actually worked in recruitment for about six weeks, I worked for a recruitment company in London. I won't say their name, but they're still there. I hated it. I hated it with a passion because people would come in looking for work, and these guys would go, yeah, I tell you what, I don't want to just get you any job. Give it to me three weeks and we will get you the right job and literally take this CBS and then put them in the bin. As I walked out, it was a real commodities based business, and I just naturally want to help people. So is this something But you know, they can help themselves by sprinkling human personality and putting pictures on it, or does it have to be formal? Womens Careers Expert 13:09 Well, I guess I mean, humour is probably a bit difficult, but especially in the cover letter, you can put a lot of your personality and I noticed this, particularly when I was managing a very international team, and I was getting applications from people from all over the world. And I noticed that German applicants used to write like, very formal, boring, standardised job application. I haven't sorry, but that's just how it is. And then I noticed that, you know, like, other nationalities, but particularly like English speaking ones, they were all over, you know, I am good at this. And I love doing that. And this is my passion. And I was like, Hey, you know, this reads much better. From a manager perspective, I will much rather invite somebody tells me about what they really like and what they enjoy, rather than somebody who's just saying, I have this experience. And I have done this before. And basically, it's just a repetition of what is already on your resume. David Ralph 14:13 When I used to interview people, and I was very, very good at interviewing people, because I never went really with their skills. It was more about how they made me feel. And one of the first questions I used to ask people, it was always one that I didn't expect, because I'd come in, ready for the professional. And I remember saying to this girl as the first one, what makes you laugh? And she said, when people hurt themselves, and I thought, brilliant, that's for me, that's for me, because I laugh at the same thing. And she was like a Terminator, but work she was absolutely brilliant. And so is this something you know, before we spin it around again, into your career path? Is this something that companies should focus in on more about the personality and how they make them feel because they're going to teach the person how to work in their office isn't it is not that they're just gonna put them on a desk and away they go they're gonna have some kind of training and development period is about all the feelings. Womens Careers Expert 15:10 Yeah, it's a lot about you know, getting to know the person really Who are you and, you know, how do you pick? Because it's I mean experience is one thing experience you can have or you can gain I mean you can learn so much I learned a lot that I had not studied for just on the job, but the important thing is really to find the person with the right mindset. So what I learned and that really made a change in my hiring as well is to ask behavioural based interview questions because there you can really see how people reacted based on a concrete example and you can get real feeling of what kind of person they are and how they will pay for One day on the job. David Ralph 16:02 Now, let's take you back in time then because you was a listener of Join Up Dots and then we connected and you signed up for my, in those days. It was a four week course we went twice a week for four weeks. Now we do it over eight weeks to get people breathing space in between. How did you find that process? Was it something bad actually, because certain people say to me, I overload on certain things. Other people say, you know, it was just right. Did you find it a pressurised or weeks? Womens Careers Expert 16:35 No, not at all. And the only issue was that I was actually sick with the flu for about a week so I could not think straight, but luckily I could rewatch the video so all good. David Ralph 16:45 So with the process that we went through, it was basically an hour half hour, so an hour and a half to two hours of me twice a week, and then videos to submit that information. Now I remember when you first came to me one day Things that I always say to people is, let's try to get traffic from every source. Let's try to flood your business with traffic and you came up with women's career Lyft. And I said, I hate it. I hate it because no one is going to type in women's career Lyft let's find a name. And you went against me. And you said, No, this is it. It's what I want is my branding. Now I look at it, and I like it, because I can understand it. But why were you so passionate to say, David, I don't agree with what you're saying. And I'm going to do my own thing. Womens Careers Expert 17:35 Well, a I had been thinking about a name for the business because as you already saw my name, my own name is a bit hard to pronounce and to remember so I wanted to something that easy, David Ralph 17:49 easy to say. Easy. Womens Careers Expert 17:57 I wanted something that people can remember you know, and also So that they can understand both in English and in German, and gives them an idea of where the business is going. And also, I had already purchased the URL when we did the course. So I didn't really want to switch. David Ralph 18:15 You didn't want to waste 10 pounds or whatever it is to take my advice and move it forward. But what you've done, which is very clever, is it's it's a branding, you know, it's a branding, but when you look at it, it makes sense. Now, a lot of people come to me and I had these really esoteric sort of names, I suppose Join Up Dots is one of those ones. Now I look at it and in many ways, it makes perfect sense for so many avenues of my business, but for Wow, it was just the Steve Jobs speech. And if you hadn't listened to that, it didn't make any sense. Now, with that, having those three words women's career live, does that make it been easier to bring your content and your branding and your your profile. does everything for lot from that easy. Is that something that people need to think about? How do those three words cascade down through everything that I'm doing? Womens Careers Expert 19:15 Yeah, I mean, I think it makes it clear, you know, who is the big target group, let's say so I don't get too many people coming to my website and then figuring out only after reading through see three or four pages that it's not they are not really right for me or I'm not really right for them. David Ralph 19:38 What Well, I'm amazed with you as well. And I'm amazed every as I'm doing that little IoT business with my fingers. Every phone that I speak to, is how brilliant you are at English. And I it just blows my mind. You know, I'm possibly English. I've been studying it for many, many years. But every other language no I can say hello, goodbye. And that's about it. Now, when you decided you decided quite strongly that you wanted to focus in on German speaking women. Was that a market that was prudent to go into now you're in but have you found it difficult to crack that code? Womens Careers Expert 20:22 Well, actually, because we did the course together in English, I started my website and all my online presence in English and I still have not launched a German website. So all my German speaking clients have just come through recommendations. David Ralph 20:40 Now this this is brilliant, man. Okay, so let's talk about this. So you because so many people think I got to grow a huge audience, I've got to grow a tonne of traffic, but I'm really fascinated. In joining up the dots. You see what I did there, finding the very small pockets of traffic, but actually kept K through, I would much rather have one customer a month that pays me thousands of dollars more than 100,000 customers that don't really pay me anything and take so much time to manage now with yourself, those referrals, bear in mind that you were and you still are full time employed. Was that something that was an open gift? Did you look at? Obviously brilliant, this is fantastic, or did you think to yourself, hang on, hang on? I'm not quite there yet. I haven't quite got the website done. I haven't quite got the the Twitter feed going and all the other stuff that we think we have to have. Did you embrace it easily? Womens Careers Expert 21:39 Oh, I was ready to go. I mean, I was really really happy and I still am really, really happy every time somebody refer someone to me. I also noticed that you know, when people come in via referral, they will never discuss with you about price or whatever, because they know already what they will get. Whereas you know, I found a couple of customers A via Facebook or online and they will always try to negotiate, which makes sense because they don't know me yet. And they don't know if they can trust me and if I really can provide the value that they are looking for. David Ralph 22:13 So So do you think that you actually don't need any online presence? Can somebody get a business up and running just by doing stuff for somebody and saying, Tell your mates about me. Womens Careers Expert 22:27 I think you need, at least in my case, an online presence because even though my friends talk about my services, they don't know somebody or they don't meet somebody everyday who wants to change their jobs. So I mean, the target group is not so big in amongst my friends and family. So, of course, I need an online presence, but I also now do some local networking and meeting people and just getting the word out there about what I'm doing. I think this is a Also very important, because only online is not enough, I think, especially here in Austria, and also in Germany, I would say, there's still a lot of mistrust about everything to do with online and this new technologies and so on. And people trust their neighbours and their friends and whoever they know. And, yeah, their word of mouth is really, really important. David Ralph 23:26 I'm going to play some words pain, and then we're going to delve back into what Bettina is saying, his Oprah, Oprah Winfrey 23:32 the way through the challenge is to get still and ask yourself, what is the next right move? not think about, Oh, I got all of this. What is the next right move? And then from that space, make the next right move, and the next right move and not to be overwhelmed by it because, you know, your life is bigger than that one moment. You know, you're not defined by what somebody says is a failure for you. Because failure is just there to point you in a different direction. David Ralph 24:03 Now let's get back into the Ripper or because something that is is really prevalent in my life at the moment, is how powerful local search is. It operates in such a high level in Google, Google now will know where you're based. You can do Google My Business, you can start getting traffic, even without a website. Google will give you a free website. You just have to post on it and and connect your cell phone, your mobile phone and all those kind of bits of details. I find Oprah Tina, what you're saying makes total sense because you're networking. You're getting out there in your local community. So you become the expert in that local community. You find the people that are there's a lady just down the road who does bad. Why don't you speak to her people trust locally, but I speak to once again so many people that think that they've got to get a client in new York before they can get their next door neighbour to sign up, it's a mistake, isn't it? Womens Careers Expert 25:06 I mean, if you find the client in New York more easily than your next door neighbour, why not? But I guess you know locally because people know you it's easier to find the first clients and from Derek pendants snowball. David Ralph 25:22 snowball in Austria is quite easy to get right imagine. Womens Careers Expert 25:26 But right now it is. Yeah, it started snowing about two weeks ago. So now in the mountains, there's already a lot of snow. David Ralph 25:34 Now what point do the Austrians and the Germans been mistrust online work? I don't understand that. And it's the first time any guest has mentioned anything like that nowadays. I I push people to say online and offline aren't separate. They're the same thing. You've just got to, you know, find your traffic in both sources. Why do you think the Austrians and Germans are new Point of View mistrust it Womens Careers Expert 26:03 it's all about privacy. It's they're all afraid that their data will be leaked to I don't know which company who will do I don't know what with it and you know, they are very private people. And this was also one of the challenges I had to overcome was really to put my real name out there and because there is nobody else in the world with this name, so it's just me and also to put my real address because in Austria and Germany, you have to actually put your real address on your webpage otherwise you get a problem. So that was that was really one of the main challenges because I know the fan you know of, yeah, having all this information out there and and maybe just people showing up at my doorstep or something like that. You never know what can happen. David Ralph 26:52 It's not gonna happen, though. Is it me? It's not Womens Careers Expert 26:54 gonna happen. I know. But these are the things you think about, right? David Ralph 26:58 Yeah, I can. I'm just it because I did a similar thing when I started off at Join Up Dots, I gave a fake address. And because I thought to myself, you know, what happens is somebody comes along, and Nick's my microphone and you know, it's stupid really thinking about it because I just buy another microphone. You know, it's not a game changer, but they were the kind of fears in my head. And most of the fears with business is about what's in your head, isn't it? It's very much you when the inner game to win the outer game. Have you struggled with that? Have you struggled with the who's gonna trust me? Who's gonna hire me? Who's going to base who's gonna be back? Womens Careers Expert 27:38 Well, a bit.

In today's episode of The Speakers Life I talk with Cyriel Kortleven CSP, a keynote speaker on change. Speaking in Singapore Writing your next book Going international first as a speaker A globally focused speaker Being a non-native English speaker Heather Hansen Sylvie di Giusto International Professional Speakers Associations Top creativity speakers The speaker lifestyle PSA Australia conference Yes and Word clouds at live events The value of joining SpeakersU Fredrik Haren Giving a great speech Ladder story Cyriel's speaker kit: Bose headphones Macbook Tripod iPhone HeyMic Books:  Made to Stick by Chip and Dan Heath, How To Become A Global Keynote Speaker by Fredrik Haren Tools:  Evernote, Things, Rev.com, Upwork https://www.cyrielkortleven.com/ Artificial Intelligence Generated Transcript Below is a machine-generated transcript and therefore the transcript may contain errors. Hey there is James Taylor here and I'm delighted today to have a different Cyriel Kortleven with us. Cyriel is a global speaker and author on creativity and change. A digital nomad who believes inspiring others changing mindsets. And the idea that less is beautiful. He is the author of five books, and we're not speaking on stage as you might find him at the Burning Man festival, or climbing up the ladder, this will discover in a minute. So first of all, welcome to the show, Sarah, thank you very happy to be here. So share with everyone what's happening in your world just now what you're up to the moment. At this moment, I'm preparing some new trips. So in September, I'm planning to go to Singapore again. So I'm reaching out to some people and see if I can do some stuff. And probably I got a request to do something in Australia next year. So they're also slowly reaching out to some people build up a small network there some activating those people. And I'm obviously your your speakers, you member. So you and I were going to work together a lot on that. And I'm always really impressed with you because you're one of the speakers who you you you take an idea, you learn some Mary Smith training I've done or something we've spoken about coaching piece, and then you go and act, you're very good at actually making stuff happen and doing it pretty quickly as well. Is that because the creativity bit in you is it's about adapting to change being be flexible in that way. Yes, absolutely. And that, I think, even as a speaker, because to be honest, at this moment, mind, my business is a little bit slower, which is quite weird, because of the previous years it was really going up. But if spend a lot of time last year on working on a new book, and then still do you notice that that in terms of acquisition and marketing, you have to stay on top of it. So for that reason, I'm really open to floor new things. But you see that more and more speak, speakers get booked fire, social media, those kind of things. So I like to experiment and not least do it. Do it for a moment, see if it is something for me. If not, if it cost me too much energy, or it's not my style, or try to let it go and try something else. So yeah, I think it has something to do with creativity. Experiment, try new things. I think that's what you mentioned there about doing that. But I see this, I see this a lot with speakers, I coach, when they go into that book writing thing, because it's such a huge, most because I know when they go into things, they go in like all in a really goal and you like to get dive and you're you're learning about your story, then you're thinking about it, and you get the marketing and the launch. And as a result, there's that period of you know, the however many months you're working on that book where you got your focus, and you're not focused too much on the marketing and the creative, but you've been speaking professionally now for about five years. But one of the that you very much position yourself is as an international speaker. speakers, I tell us about that. Because we're both from pretty small countries, I'm here in Scotland, you're over there in Belgium, and, and so there's not lots of opportunities in our own home countries. So So tell tell me about your thinking when you decide to be a professional speaker, what the international piece was, yeah. And immediately when I started immediately wanted to go international. So my website was mainly in English. And my focus was indeed, a global focus. And that's, it sounds really big, but like you said, you know, like Scotland, Belgium, quite small speaking countries, not a lot of speaking opportunities. So if you want to make a living of it, you merely have to think in a different mindset or framework. So that was for me, you know, my my English is not perfect, but you know, I'm happy to go on stage and what I've learned from there's also an interesting thing for non native English speakers. At the last event was in Singapore, somebody was sharing a story that apparently, most if you think about how many people speak native to native English, that's only four or 5%. Now, I was quite amazed. But if you think about it, it's quite logical, because you have a lot of times you have a native speaker talking to no native people, and you have a lot of non native speakers speaking to non native English. So I don't think it's, it's a disadvantage, probably it's even more an advantage because they use quite simple language. I speak a little bit slower. So I don't see this as a negative thing. No, I actually, I definitely think it's an advantage. Because I think that was Heather Hansen. Remember how she did that? reshare 95% of all business conversations are happening between people. The English isn't their their mother tongue. And a friend of mine Sylvie de justo, based in New York, she's a German, German lives in New York. And she was getting booked all the time on these TV shows. And she finally asked the producer one day why, you know, have this funny accent? Why are you looking me? And she said, Well, the producer, well, the thing is we love about you, is because English isn't new your first language, you say things with a certain type of efficiency in a simplicity that works for the for the audience, and native English speakers, we tend to make things a little bit too flowery at times. And you can go directly. So you know whether anyone's watching this just now you're in India or wherever you are in the world. And you're not a native English speaker. And you want to break into the listen to what Cyril saying there's there's actually an advantage here. Yeah, absolutely. And then once, but what's quite interesting is what I've done at the start, because how do you get international gig? So what I've done with the start was looking, okay, what's the most direct way to learn something about a country? And one thing is, of course, visit that country. But then how do you start make connections, and I was already a member of or I think it was the same time that I started my speaking business, I followed an international PSA event. So professional speaking, Association. And that's, that really helped my business because what what you notice is a lot of our professional speaker stay getter, and most of the associations the f1 international event once a year, that's a great opportunity to visit that country at that moment, because then you meet a lot of fears. Since then, you've already got a lot of new friends speaking friends, you know, we got to know each other and, and that's a very good start to learn something, okay, how speaking business work in this country, if you can make a connection, you know, some speakers can see you in action. And immediately, they can recommend you because they they already have a business in that country. So that's also a very good way to start an international business. But you have to invest some time and money. You have to go there and buy that plane ticket, get on that plane, go go there and spend time Exactly. You're absolutely right. Now you and I both speak on very similar topic, mostly on creativity. You come in obviously from the change side as well. We have other people like Frederick Heron, example, Duncan, Wardell and then the US, like Josh Linkner, for examples. So there's, there's this grouping of probably 10, Dennis Jacobs in Miami to speak on on creativity. And I thought it was interesting to point this out to people that are just coming to this the speaking industry coming in at first it's a it's a special strange industry, and that we all know each other, if you speak on your topic, and what is maybe unusual for certain industries do this. I cover the music industry and is definitely isn't like this and music industry. We refer work to each other. Yeah. So Talk Talk to us about that, about this idea of, of having this grouping of people all speak on pretty similar topics, and how you how you connect with them, how you work alongside them, and how you share ideas. Without was it competitive? Some project competitors? Yeah, yeah, it looks like the first thing you might think, hey, competitors, and don't go to work or talk to that guy. But but it's almost the opposite. Because everybody has his or her own style, there's already one thing I love to work in a very interactive way. My story is very simple, where you, you know, you make links with more water, new technologies, a different perspective to the business, same topic. But it was also quite interesting, you know, sometimes I get a request for a gig, and one of the biggest challenges is always the date, you know, am I still free because that's in our business, you are the product. So if there is a conference, organize on that date, and you're not free, okay, I want to make that client also happy. So at that moment, their team or topic is on creativity or change. So that's perfect. You know, I know you, I've seen you at one of those conferences, I totally trust your, your, your content and your style. So I recommend you and and you do the same for me. So instead of seeing and it's true, it's I think it's quite a bizarre thing in certain industries, because most competitors, they're afraid to refer each other. And I think it's even the opposite. And the topic is also so brought in our creativity change, you can approach the topic probably from 10, or 20, or even more different angles. So it's easy to kind of add on, you know, once you've seen you, Hey, wait a minute, we can both have this, Cyril look from this perspective to it and, and it works. Well. And I think as well, there's also that I haven't seen this go in many topic areas yet. But I think it's actually I see a little bit in the social media, people, friends of mine to speak on social media influencers. And for example, what they do is they essentially crowd round, and their voice because they're all competitors. But they're all speaking of different things. They're making such a noise together about promoting and sharing each other's content and talking about each other's work all the time, either formally or informally, we have this net, this network, that the whole topic of the end of influencer marketing is going up. And more conferences than a booking people are talking in homes and marketing, because it's just being taught. So I think this is actually the opportunity that we have as speakers, if we think of ourselves less as just as individuals to actually to work together and to collaborate. And yeah. And I think that a lot of countries, you know, the speaking industry isn't that big thing in the US, it's quite a big speaking industry. To be honest, I don't do a lot of work there. I spoke there a few times, three, four times, but not know a lot. Because you think the speaking business is already quite, it's quite busy there. But as compared to it to the other continents, like in Europe, it's it's okay. But countries like Asia or Australia, you know, they're looking for speakers and the nice thing, and that's, again, vaulted, if you are an international speaker, if you're coming from a different country, most of the time, you think wow, you know, we have an international guests, and then immediately, you know, you go up in the ranking instead of being a local speaker. So it's quite funny that I think at one moment, I had a request for the same company, one wasn't Belgium. One was an Asia and in Asia, they were really talking while we can get the speaker it's really nice. And and they are in Belgium plus, oh, no. Okay, we have we have a Belgian speaker and I didn't get the Belgian gig. But it did something in Singapore, which is quite crazy. But I think the international aspect probably played a role in that will absolutely, yeah, Minaj best suited any cause of the alien advantage that you you have this foreign thing. And I don't think I know a big part of your strategy has been, obviously speaking globally, but also pushing into Asia along we I know you're spending you spend a lot of time in Asia developing in some of those new new countries in Thailand a lot, for example. So tell me what you're thinking about as Asia, there a particular countries in Asia that you find particularly exciting at the moment. For me at this moment, yeah, I'm still building up my business in Asia, and then my strategy is to go least two or three times to the same spot. So now I'm even thinking about starting a business up in, in Singapore, why Singapore, it's so easy. A lot of headquarters of Asia are based there. So if you can do something there, it's a lot easier than to travel around, go to Malaysia, Philippines, Vietnam, those countries around it. So at this moment, I'm mainly focusing on Singapore, Hong Kong, what I'm noticing is that there is still quite a lot of focus on the training master classes. But that could be a good start and noticing that you are more and more open to have a kind of a keynote for logic group, and then do a master class to do a training of half a day or day for a smaller group of people. But I have a feeling that that that it's really booming, I think, five years ago, it was the first time that I went there. And then also the Asia professional speakers, it was still a small group within five years, they boomed there, they are really doing Wow. And you have a feeling that you're more and more open for also the speaking business. So that's one of the reasons why Yeah, I want to be there. I mean, like it I like the people we love Thailand to make combine it with a holiday. So that's also really interesting. Once you're based in a place like that, or you have a good network. It's so easy to travel and explore that part of the world. You know, talk talk about the lifestyle piece, because I speak 50 times a year. That's my limit. I don't wanna speak any more than that. I've told a friend of mine the other day, he's 163 keynotes last year. And I that for me, that would just I just can't imagine wanting to speak that much and do that much for you. How do you Is there a certain number of gigs you want to be doing every year? How do you ensure that you have a lifestyle and also you're doing the kind of speaking that you want to do? Yeah, for me at this moment, I would say that still, probably 50% is still in the Benelux because, you know, my my big network is here, a lot of people know me. But then 50% is a bit bit all over the place. 20% Europe, 20% Asia and 10%. Other places, I think, yeah, it would be somewhere between 40 5060 speeches, 60 will be off for me to maximum, what I tried to do is money half a gig internationally, I always try to stay as good as possible if you don't have other things going on. But to stay at least one or two days longer. for a few reasons. One, at least have a half day to walk around, feel the energy of the city, talk to some people, but also have an opportunity to speak to some other potential clients. So once I ever get, for example, in Hong Kong, but I tried to do is see if I can invite my network that I already have there if there is a speaking bureau or or potential client to invite that person to the speaking gig, because that's still the best promotion. Yeah, no, I would say that. Yeah, probably 90% of my speaking gigs come via somebody who saw me. So I'm also happy if I'm going to a new country to do some free speeches or marketing speeches, do something for a chamber of commerce, do something for a Hey, HR leaders network. And then I'm really happy to play with my feed, because that was a good opportunity for me do that more people can see me. So I always try to stay one or two days longer. What I've also done certainly when he went, I've been several times to Australia, and that's such a big trip from Europe, just going off one gig, it's true. It's really hard. So normally I plant two or three weeks, my wife came with me and we combine it with a holiday. So that's that's what we do still at this moment, probably twice a year that we combine it with a holiday of a week. And, and you have a preference in terms of let's say you're going to speaking, I'm gonna say Bangkok as an example. You're speaking engagement in Bangkok, giving preference whether you have those extra days, whether you have them before the event, or after the event was what's your preference? Yeah. But if you have a free agenda would book it afterwards Why then you're done with the speech, and then you can really enjoy. Enjoy the holiday. In some cases a little bit harder, you know, if your way of speaking gigs meet the officer it. But then, yeah, the day before with notices that the client also live sets to know that you're already in the country. A lot of times you want to have an extra meeting with you. So I wouldn't book a holiday just just before the speech always have one day open for some business. Yes, I'm the same as you. And I like having it if I have actually having it after the event, so I can, like, the only exception to that is if it's an industry that I've never spoken up before. And it's a three day conference, maybe I'm speaking on the last day. I actually like like what actually did this week? I went in the day before, because industry I've never spoken to before. And I was a little bit worried that you know, I don't understand this industry do was it challenges. And I frankly, I just needed the day to go and talk to some of the exhibitors that were there to have a dinner the night before with some their clients. So I could really internalize and I mentioned that in the keynotes, I'll use some stories and things so so yeah, so that I could talk that lifestyle piece, which it sounds like it's very important for you. As you've been building your speaking career, was there a time when you maybe worked on something, it could have been a particular speech, or you did a marketing thing that you don't, you're speaking, and you gave it your heart and your soul? But for whatever reason, it didn't work out like you'd hoped? And more importantly, what was the lesson that you took from that experience? Well, maybe if one nice story is not really marketing or business wise, but it was more more conference wise, I think is a nice story also to share with the people who are not so experienced. I could. It wasn't Australia, I think it was in Melbourne. And I could do the opening speech for the professional speaking Association in Australia. So which was really cool yet, hundred De Beers. So also quite exciting. Uber with work summary really developed my speech on it wasn't a change mindset, but really adapted for the speakers. But they had a small event the evening before, before the real conference would start. What happened they had was was also speaker there was doing a bit more of some networking exercises. But at one moment, that person did an exercise and maybe you know, did I get sighs an exercise with Yes, but yes, it's one of my main parts of my speech to suspend judgment. And suddenly, I had no clue what they were going to do. But then we're doing all kind of networking exercise. So let's do it. Yes, but yes, and exercise tomorrow, and that's quite an important part of my presentation. But the exercise, what am I going to do it tomorrow, you know, I can't I can't do the same thing. Tomorrow and before. So that night was quite or the evening, even I didn't join that working dream because it was really, but stressed, what's going to happen, but at one moment, the lesson that I took a circle, you know, they invited you here to give this speech, you You are an experienced speaker, just relax. So what he did to the cold shower that really helped. And then it was things Cyriel, you know, they stay close to yourself this happened. Why don't you use it, you know, when be be vulnerable and say what's happening to you at this moment? Because it was quite stressed. I was thinking Oh, how would they go to react and after a allowed myself to get into that? That's the mindset or more open minds interesting. Several you talk about the open mindset, so don't be so stressed. What came up to me is Hey, so maybe you have to do something funny. And and and explain what is happening to you right now in you know, in your thoughts and what I've done and that was it was really a switch study made. The next day explain Hey, people normally I was planning to do an anxiety Yes, but yes, and but you know what happened yesterday? And then everybody was already think I here who what would happen if that would happen to me, you know, such a thing. And that's what I've done have used a created a new slides with my thoughts are like a typewriter. You know, my, my my words are my thoughts came up into the slides on Oh, he's using the same exercise. And that worked out brilliantly. So I explained what happened. And then he said, I made a switch. Now I'm going to do the exercise anyway. But I do it in my style from a different perspective. And it's worked out brilliantly, but needed to do bring them in the right context. Yeah. So my advice of my learning would be as you know, stick to yourself, what's happening to you and bring that story. Know your audience. They're also human being. So if you explain your process, and I did it with humor that worked for me, people will appreciate it. And yeah, it was really work. But sometimes yet things go differently. But I mean, we think about it. It's interesting, you shared that story, because I think I said that, if you become more experienced, that is going to happen to you. It's going to happen, it's going to happen if someone the other day, it says there's one speaker that doesn't speak to him. Because he he gave a speech and he gave his speech in the morning that say, he didn't know this other speaker speaking in the afternoon, what their speech was about. And when the key stories us was when the key story they used in the afternoon. And they came up to him and said, You've come you did you do this on purpose as he hadn't done it on purpose. It was just it was genuine mistake, but it's gonna it's gonna happen to you. Yep. It also leads me to believe that there's actually a little bit of power in that. Well, first of all, there's the reinforcement thing. I'm guessing that by the end of the left that event, every know everyone knows that. Yes, and yes. But the other thing is, is more of a personality and a tone piece, where if we think let's say I have a lot of books on marketing or leadership, and I might like that book, you might like this book, because that also speaks to me, this also speaks to you and it's not and it's just these those different voices. But this happened to me what you just said there almost happened to me this week, I was speaking at an event. And I was I was due to speak at 930. In the morning, there was another speaker who's speaking at nine in the morning, he was one of the sponsors when the big sponsors of the event. And I always ask if someone's just speaking a little bit before me in the morning when I asked this, and can you tell me what, what this The topic is what they're speaking about. And they were kind enough, that speaker was kind enough to actually send me his slides, and actually saw what he was doing. And he actually mentioned something that I hope I do an opening with him. And, and I was like, oh, How's this? how's this gonna work? It was great. And and because the person that was speaking first was he comes from the industry, and is an engineer. So he spoke had spoke like, not a professional speaker would speak you spoke in terms of stats. Yes, we I speaking like you and I speak we speak more stories and principles. And so actually, it worked out quite well. But lately, it was it was a bit a little bit. Yeah. Based on your experience, you know, to make a switch, or it's the same for me, if I if I, I always try if there's a full day event, and I'm the last speaker, I try to be there the whole day. Absolutely. Just to you know, you can make an exercise but also for these kind of things that I hadn't before the people were using a different exercise the director exercise, so when I did I switch my slides, you know, if you have a backup totally fine, even though it but sometimes, yeah, you share it, you know, it's elephant in the room, do something with it, making make make it click or bring it a look from this from this perspective. And that is fine, then most people are okay with it. Can you talk to about a speech that you've given me doing a question for five years, but one way you felt like something changed? Maybe it was intended, you just felt like your topic you really clicking on your topic, what you wanted to speak about or where you would go You were going at it or maybe something in terms of your craft your presentation, but you just went It was one of those ones? You remember, you look back and think that was important for good or for bad. Can you maybe talk to one of those key speeches in your life? Yeah. Yeah, there was absolutely one I did. It did a speech for the European communication summit, which was really cool. I think there were 700 communication directors from all of Europe. What I don't involves was, I think, a week in advance of send out to five or six people, from participants who would be attending that conference. And they had a short chat with them. But a few I had a goal with three of them, he had a goal with three of them add an email conversation. And what I did is also what's what's the biggest challenge that you have in your industry and the communication, your role as a communication director, I want to dominate didn't know it would work or not, but they created a kind of a word clouds might have all of the answers the game. And it could make a nice link with the topic that he had. What if no decision really resonated with the audience even I just thought about it for one minutes. But just the fact that I could say, hey, I've been talking to several of you in the audience, I created a workflow. What he felt was immediately a connection and better connection. So since then, for all the little bit bigger events, I tried to do it all the time to at least speak to several people in advance and create a small word cloud, it's not that much work for you, I learned something about industry, I can make some better connections. I could use their words, it was also quite interesting. I wish I would have use a different word but they're always talking about this. Know what that was quite quite interesting insight. That's that's a great technique. There's I know there's a not really to the speaking but there's a related to more on marketing, book marketing there is. And I forgotten his name. Now, a guy who really teaches about marketing. And he said, What he does is, before you ever writes a book, he goes into Amazon. And he reviews goes, gets all the tests, the testimonials and Amazon for book. And he just loaded them all into some spreadsheet and it creates a word cloud. And then he see if it works. The biggest is the words that he ends up you. So it's not the words that he would maybe even use as an author. Was that your audience? So you that's what you've done, your views the audience has was how they, how they relate to their problems, the words that they would use it, I think it's a really smart thing. And I can imagine, there's 500 people in the audience, as soon as they see that. They're going to go, john asked me that he understands me as well. So that great, that's a great little to might use up on my word clouds. Very good suggestion. What's the best piece of advice that you've ever received? In terms of how to build a speaking business? You've obviously interacted, you mentioned going to all these speakers associations, obviously, you and I work together as well. And speakers you but from your all these events? You've been to what's the best piece of advice you've heard? Yeah. By the way, and it's not that they know you. But the speakers you Wow, what a great source of inspiration. Because Yeah, I joined beginning of this year, and I've been watching a lot of videos. Yeah. So if you want to start out that's absolutely a good base. Also, probably vote maybe already recommended before. But Frederick Frederick Aaron, I think he's really generous with his blog building up an international speaking businesses. So that's really good. And I think, yeah, one of the pieces of advice that the he shares, all of the diamond, and it works, and probably people already have heard it many times, but but it works. So yeah, let's keep on repeating it, is that the best way to get new speeches is deliver brilliant speech. And that's noticing more, because I think my speeches is good, I would give myself an eighth, I always get eight 910 on revelation scores, and I would give myself eight. But still, I keep on investing and getting better and storytelling, stage draw. And sometimes people say but so his things already very good. Why? Because you think if I can go from eight to eight and a half, or two and nine, I'm quite sure instead of three people line up after my speech, it will be five people. And so keep on working on the speech and, and even my speeches, it's quite simple. I think it's really good. But every minute, what can be better, what how can I interact better? Well, now on the speech that you did, the one I saw, it was so insightful. And you do something, which I think is a really bold idea, I probably wouldn't do it, which is which also speaks to the difference about we both speak on the same topic, we come at it from completely different standpoints, you do something you do something which is called using a physical product. And it's extremely memorable. So I don't know whether you want to explain what it is because I think it's whether you use something like the thing you do or have some type of physical Prop, I do think a physical prop is a very powerful thing to do that we can learn from the theater, for example. Yeah, absolutely. So when indeed, in one of my speeches to do the most change mindset, I use a ladder and a banana. And it's a little metaphor that came from a tonight, which is quite quite funny, actually, because I saw cartoon with a banana peel lying on the floor, there was the ladder was over it. And a lot of people will walk over the ladder, and which is really bizarre. I almost think this is this is exactly the essence, what I want to talk about because they want to, for me a ladder, or the metaphor of a ladder, our old inefficient rules, systems, guidelines, ways of working, that we've built up and a lot of companies, you know, a lot of those those rules are coming from the past, you know, they've worked in the past, but are they still relevant? That was thing this metaphor is so simple. So at one moment, I did an experiment again, let's let's try it on stage. And the audience say they love them. Because this very visual, you know, you see a guy climbing a ladder and, and to be honest, since then, I already collected a lot of stories, real ladder stories, because when I'm traveling, I'm not taking my own ladder, I've been thinking about it, you know, really go the suitcase with a ladder, which would be in terms of branding, quite interesting. But a lot of times at a conference, I couldn't get a ladder or it could get a ladder, but it couldn't climb it because they were afraid for safety and what have you fought. So I could even use those kind of examples. They are exactly the point that he wants to talk about. So it gave me a lot of new stories. But indeed, sometimes is a little bit challenging to do to find a physical To be honest, maybe I will recommend different speaker not to use a ladder but to something a little bit more simple. I saw a speaker Tom lightning who both both know he has a great one he actually had a lot of places now you have these microphones inside of boxes and he actually got some type of Gremlin soft toy and he's put a microphone inside and he is able to throw around using which is using a kind of catapult cetera is the Catholic I'm not sure how much longer the catapult will be making us we have a problem Taylor, but the little thing he takes around him as a great prop so I think there's a lot of things that we can learn from that world. But using visual props because it does make you remember I remember you know you other for me myself my head the ladder and I can remember that that you that yellow ladder as well. It's interesting because a lot of proper use just quickly I used to the coaster, I don't know if you still remember this one in Belgium, us. You have heard side and a green side. But what's so interesting, James is that I've seen people three or four years after my speech, I come back to see me Hey, wait a minute, are you Cyril, I'm still you know, the ghosts are still on my desk. This is brilliant material, you know and you have to do something you know, it has to be part of your presentation. But I think sometimes you can be smart because we're doing a lot of marketing outside of what some marketing tool that you can use inside out. So what a small thing what's an easy thing that you can give the audience to and then the one I'm about to do which I learned from a comedian recently having seen a show is very low tech because it was on my physical products but he can also be on the factory props as well. So what she has a she has these flyers which going all the seats but before she speaks about mindfulness, she she screens them all with 11% and a part of speech she says something along the lines of so keep that bit of paper that is there is spelled out their papers. Now, you notice I put laughing that's a smell of relaxation. So put that by your desk and anytime you're feeling stress, just pick that up and smell that and just think about it. wonderful little prop wonderful probably is going to you're going to remember you're going to keep it buying your purse at desk. So let's talk about the speaker kit. you're traveling all around the world. I'm guessing you have to be really efficient in what you travel with. What's in your speaker bag? What do you what's in that bag of tricks Do you take on the road with you? Probably the usual stuff always my my my MacBook and all the connectors. What I definitely love when I'm traveling is the headphones. The side that's that's certainly the plane but also when I'm when I'm traveling, what I'm noticing is set. For me it's a little bit easier to you know a lot of my home office to really think about some some bigger projects that he wants to do. And then the headphones definitely work. What I'm doing more and more is making some blocks. So some videos I'm experimenting with it, but with my social media. So now I'm also bringing what we call it the tripods. I have a nice tripod that I'm using. Yeah, I'm not bringing the ladder. But that's something that I have to keep in mind is in advance try to arrange a ladder. Moment even bought one with the camera. Are you just using your iPhone or your iPhone? Yeah, so you're really low, low, high tech, but very low weight. It's very easy to travel around. Using hurts. Let me see if I can find after a little Yeah, I like these. You don't know she knows him the loss. Hey, Mark, I make Yes. Actually I met with Julie Julie who is inventor of this and the other week. Some people are not very, really fun with it. But I have to say I'm very happy with it. It's worked for the social media. So bring these are very small. Yeah, that's that's probably the most important things that I bring. And if you can recommend one book to our listeners that you found very useful as a speaker, maybe it could be on the craft side or business more generally, or the industry, what would that book be? I still loved the book from Dan and chip. He'd been by the stick, made a mistake, he made a mistake. I think that's a very a book with free. It's really helped me to simplify my message. So in they they talk about how you can Why are some messages do they stick another slot? And they give a very easy framework. And then that really helped me to develop my message. And I still use it as a kind of a checklist is as simple as or something unexpected as concrete. Is it? some emotion there and the story? Yeah, that's a book marketing wise, it also worked for me. And I like the book of Frederick. Certainly if you want to work in a more global level, I think his book is very practical. But I think 27 steps to become a global Speaker I think if rather than two hours. It's a great book lots of fantastic ideas and putting there and they all very actionable as well. What about your traveling all the time? Is there an online is a mobile app or online tool that you find very useful for being a nomadic speaker? Yeah, I have probably the Evernote but most people are using it. That's that's really handy. Well, I use things things as my to do list. I find it quite quite easy one that they update every day. So those are the two biggest one that of us. Not Not Not really one that really sticks out or the new one. Yeah, I'm experimenting with a few now with the videos to get some subtitles yet. rafa.com I'm exploring that one. And he I lost use of work with some freelancers. So you have a few freelancers who helped me in that one. So yeah, unless imagine you woke up tomorrow morning. You can choose any city in the world. So that might be Singapore next night. And wake up in Singapore. And you have to start from scratch though no one knows you. You know no one. What would you do? How would you restart to get your get your your speaking business started? Yeah, absolutely. First thing that I would do is pick up my tripod, my iPhone and create a little video, create a video mean action talking about my my stuff that they do. Second thing that what I would do probably combination is get a friend get as soon as possible. And again, try to film it, get some recommendations. I think having a good show reel is one of the first thing that that I would start with, and then do a lot of free speeches, you know, even as an experienced speaker, I think Yeah, I call them free. It's not really free because I don't like free but getting business cards, getting recommendations, Oscar referral, those kind of things that would be my marketing thing to start up and build up your network. So those are the two things that that I would do. Definitely. If it would start again. Fantastic. And if people want to connect with you, I mean be to refer you for speaking of Jeanette they know the speak on creativity and change. where's the best place for them to go and do that to learn more about you? Yeah, that's probably my website which would be civil court leavin.com and by the way, if you translate court leavin court means short living rooms live. So Elsa claimed URL as a little bit easier. Cyril, just with see why are i l? civil, short life.com. also find me. And that's probably the easiest way to find me. You can find a blog. You can find my books and stuff. And feel free to reach out and I'm happy to send you some other stuff how I started my speaking business. Yep. Well, fantastic. So thanks so much for coming on today sharing all about your speakers life and all the journey that you've been on fantastic story, and I'm looking forward to continue to work together and, and we'll be hopefully sharing a stage together at some point in the future. That would be cool. Likewise, thank James. How would you like to get paid to travel the world to share your message and expertise? How did it feel to get paid 5000 10,000 $25,000 to travel first class and stay in five star hotels in exotic locations. What I've just described is the lifestyle of international keynote speakers. And you can join me and over 100 of the world's best keynote speakers, and speaker trainers as they reveal their secrets to becoming a better speaker and getting booked to travel the world as a professional keynote speaker and Bestival. As it's an online summit You don't even have to leave home plus it's not going to cost you a single dollar euro pound ruble peso or yen. If you sign up for the free pass at International Speakers Summit calm you're going to receive access to never seen before video interviews over 40 of the world's best keynote speakers. In addition to this, you'll get access to archived interviews from some of last year's summit guests. So in total, you'll be able to watch in depth interviews with over 100 incredible speakers and speaker trainers. You'll have to find a theme for your keynote presentation how to craft your talk how to get booked as a speaker, how much to charge and ways to get paid to speak on stages all over the world. So what are you waiting for? Head over to internationalspeakerssummit.com now