The Naberhood

Guest: Danielle Peretore - Director, Sales Strategy & Analytics @Glassdoor (Formerly @NerdWallet, @LinkedIn, @BCG, @HBS) Guest Background: Danielle Peretore is the Director of Sales Strategy & Analytics at Glassdoor. Prior to Glassdoor, Danielle worked in management consulting and business operations in the tech industry. She graduated from Brown and Harvard Business School and has a soft spot for the East Coast. She spends most of her free time doting on her two rescue dogs. Guest Links: LinkedIn Episode Summary: In this episode, we cover: - Biz Ops Team Structure & Hiring - Best Practices - International Markets Selection Framework - Data-Driven Executive Decision Making - Executive Profiles, Challenges, Solutions - Translating Executive Strategy & Data to the Field - Sales & Customer Success - Building Commercial Structures for Scale - Company Superpowers - @Glassdoor, @NerdWallet, @LinkedIn Full Interview Transcript: [Naber] Hello friends around the world. My name is Naber Naber, welcome to The Naberhood, where we have switched on, fun discussions with some of the most brilliant, successful, experienced, talented, and highly skilled sales and marketing minds on the planet from the world's fastest-growing companies. Enjoy. Hey everybody, today we have Danielle Peretore on the show. Danielle's the Director of Sales Strategy and Analytics at Glassdoor. Glassdoor was acquired back in 2018 for $1.2 billion.  worked in management consulting and business operations in the tech industry. She worked for NerdWallet, who has a $500 million valuation, and $105 million capital raised. And she also worked at LinkedIn, who was acquired by Microsoft back in 2016 for $26.2 billion. Before that, they went public in 2011. Danielle graduated from Brown and Harvard Business School, and she has a soft spot for the East Coast. She spends most of her free time doting on her two rescue dogs. Here we go.   [Naber] Danielle, awesome to have you on the show. How are you this morning?   [Danielle Peretore] I am great, thanks for having me. I'm excited to be here.   [Naber] Thank you.   [Danielle Peretore] Although it's actually evening my time.   [Naber] (laughs) Well happy evening, and good evening. So what I think we'll do is first talk through a little bit of your personal story, get into you as a kid, some of the decisions you made, interests you had, et cetera, and then we'll start to lean into probably 80, 90% of what we'll talk about which is your professional jumps, and some of the superpowers that you've acquired, accumulated along the way, and some of the things that you're great at, and know a lot about. And we'll talk through some of the methods and mindsets that you have around those things. Sound okay?   [Danielle Peretore] Yeah, sounds great.   [Naber] Okay cool. Let's start back in Jersey, where it all started.   [Danielle Peretore] Oh boy.   (Naber laughing)   [Naber] 25, 35, minutes outside of Newark it seems. Tell us a little bit about you as a kid.   [Danielle Peretore] So, I think I was the ultimate nerdy kid. I read all the time and everywhere, and I was horrible at sports. I got kicked off of six sports teams in high school, actually six.   [Naber] You counted. [Danielle Peretore] About half for skill. Oh yeah, I mean about half of them were for skill and about half of them for having a bad attitude. So, you know, kinda evened out. But yes, I read a lot of books. I went to a lot of really nerdy camps. I went to computer camp, I went to science camp, I went to math camp, all of the above.   [Naber] Yes, this is so cool.   [Danielle Peretore] Is it, is it so cool, or did I have a tiger mom? I'm not really sure.   (Naber laughing)   [Naber] Fair enough, fair enough. So maybe both are true. This is great. Tell us about a couple of the camps that you enjoyed the most and why.   [Danielle Peretore] Which camps did I enjoy, actually I loved computer camp because you could play games all day. Actually, you weren't supposed to but I did. Do you remember that game Frogger that was really big in the 90s?   [Naber] Absolutely.   [Danielle Peretore] Of course, of course. Okay great. Yeah, I loved Frogger, so I played a lot of Frogger there. I also learned how to code in HTML, back in, this must have been like 1998. So I was ahead of the curve and then I totally lost it, never became a coder, you know my mom's dreams of me becoming a female engineer just went out the window. That's a story for later, but anyway I coded these, Danielle's home page, it was always rainbow and sparkles, whatever. So yeah, I loved computer camp.   [Naber] Very cool.   [Danielle Peretore] Yeah, yeah.   [Naber] And what was the first way that you made money?   [Danielle Peretore] First way I made money. The first actual paycheck I had for the summer before I went to college, my parents were, you know I'd been a nerdy kid just studying all through high school. And so they were very determined, they said that I needed to have a menial job. It was incredibly important to them that I understood what life would look like if I dropped out of college. And so they signed me up to work at a, it was like a shack that made french fries. So I made french fries and like chicken dinos. It was at like a, I think it was at a local pool. Yeah, it was at a local pool. And I spent my summer mopping floors, lots of clogged toilets. It was great, it was great. By the time I got to college, I was like, yep I'm gonna figure this thing out, I'm gonna stick it out. I don't want there to be any more clogged toilets in my future.   (Naber laughing) [Naber] That's a good story.   [Danielle Peretore] Yeah, my parents had a little bit of a shock and awe strategy in terms of raising us. They were like yeah, you don't wanna do the things that we think you should do, or that you should do, let us shock you. Like, throw you in the deep end.   [Naber] That's funny. Was that the way it was for all our siblings as well?   [Danielle Peretore] Oh my gosh, yes. I think my other sisters, one of them worked, she actually, she was going to Harvard and then she spent two summers scooping ice cream. Where she got in trouble because apparently her ratio of ice cream to sprinkles was not right, and it was pretty funny when then she had to explain to them, she's like, "I promise I can do this. "I'm going to Harvard next year."   (Naber laughing)   [Naber] All right, great. And one last question, and we'll move on. What was your personality like as a kid? How would you describe it?   [Danielle Peretore] Well, believe it or not, I didn't talk really, as a kid. This is shocking to anyone who knows me now, but I was silent. I didn't talk to anyone, except my parents, and I really didn't like other kids. I was not into it. I just wanted to hang out with the adults. I basically wanted to be left alone and reading all day. I didn't wanna sweat. Sports was just a no go, I didn't really wanna be outside. I was like an 80-year-old woman as a 10-year-old.   [Naber] Interesting.   [Danielle Peretore] Yeah.   [Naber] Were you always like that, like did your parents say that you were like that when you were really small, like when you were a child?   [Danielle Peretore] Yes, yes. Yes, I was always like that. I never, there's all these pictures of me as a kid where all the other kids are together and I'm in the corner by myself not talking to anyone. Yeah, but it's funny, as I got older, so my middle sister used to be the really talkative one and so she would answer questions for me and whatever, and then we totally flipped and now I talk all the time, I always wanna talk. And my middle sister is really quiet and wants to be left alone.   [Naber] Well, you're making up for lost time with words, I love it.   [Danielle Peretore] I mean, yeah it's been about half my life that I've been making up for lost time so I should probably pump the brakes a little bit.   (Naber laughing)   [Naber] Fair enough. All right, so you're getting out of high school, you're making the decision to go to uni, why Brown University? And why cognitive neuroscience and Brazilian Portuguese studies?   [Danielle Peretore] Oh God, that's the question of the century. Why Brown, I'm wearing my Brown sweatshirt right now actually. I went to Brown, well really 'cause it was the best school I got into and as I said I had a tiger mom. So there wasn't much negotiation there. However, I loved Brown. I loved everything about Brown. Brown is just such a weird, wacky, wonderful place. There are no requirements, you take whatever you want. The weirder you are the better. I was considered so normal at Brown. And it was not cool, you know, it was not cool that I was normal. My friends from Brown are, they're just doing weird cool stuff. Brown was the best. I just had my 10-year reunion and it was a dream, I loved it. I think I got there and I was like, oh it's a bunch of weird kids who wanna sit in a corner and read, like me, great.   [Naber] Why cognitive neuroscience, and why Brazilian Portuguese studies?   [Danielle Peretore] Also great questions. So cognitive neuroscience, as I've said like 10 times during this conversation, I had a tiger mom, she really wanted me to get a science degree, and I did not wanna take Organic Chemistry. So I literally found the one degree I could get that did not require me to take Organic Chemistry and I signed myself up. But that's the funny side of the story, which is very true, it's very true. But I also, I've just always been really interested in why people do the things they do. It's part I think why I work with sales teams, which we'll get into, but I love it. Like what drive people, why do people make this decision, why do you do this thing that makes no sense, that's totally irrational. And so I got there because I was trying to appease my mom and also not do what she wanted at the same time. And then I stayed here because I really liked learning about that.   [Naber] Very cool. And you're at Brown, thinking about making your move into the real world,  your first jump out of school. Tell us about your professional ride so far.   [Danielle Peretore] Sure, yeah. So I graduated Brown in 2009  and that just goes to say that the world was ending when I graduated. It was basically like, whatever job you got you held on for dear life. And so I got really lucky, I interned at BCG, the Boston Consulting Group, management consulting, during my summer, my junior year summer. And honestly I did 'cause that I didn't know what else to do. You know that's the thing that's, I'm not gonna say all of us, but so many college kids who don't know what they wanna do, they get tricked. It's like, go into management consulting, I'm gonna get to do a lot of things. When actually you're gonna get to do one thing, which is run an Excel model and put it into PowerPoint slides. So yeah, signed myself up on that train. I did my summer at BCG, and then came back and was like, well there are literally no other jobs. So I went there full time. I joined the BCG New York office, I moved right to Manhattan after I graduated college. It was actually, a funny sidebar, my roommate was, she an amateur boxer training for the Golden Gloves and her boyfriend who lived with us was the starting linebacker for the New York Giants. So it like a real, yeah, I know. And then there's me. You guys can't see me, but I'm under five feet tall. So it was a real trip.   (Naber laughing)   Otherwise, they were great, but yeah. So then I was living in New York, working at BCG, and frankly, I just didn't love the buttoned-up culture. It just did not fit me. So I did it, I got through kind of paying my dues there, and then I was like, I don't wanna wear a suit to work anymore. And I was a kid from New Jersey, I had big hair at the time, big hoop earrings, I had a Jersey accent, and I was like, this is not my scene. So anyway. I had a great experience there, I'm really happy, I learned awesome skills, but then I jumped from there. I had always loved California and had done a bunch of trips there when I was younger and loved San Francisco, and so  LinkedIn reached out to me. They were looking, it was right before they were about to IPO, and they were looking for someone who spoke Portuguese, and I studied abroad in Brazil in college, 'cause they were about to open the Brazil office, and so I was like, all right, I'm outta here. Flew across the country with two suitcases, lived in a basically condemned apartment building as you do when you're 22 years old and moved across the country. And it was super fun. So I was at LinkedIn for about two years through an awesome period of their growth. They went from I think about a thousand employees to about five thousand by the time I left, it was over two years, it was wild. LinkedIn went public and I was still trying to figure out where the cafeteria was. It was just such a crazy experience. And I had no idea how crazy what I was living through was at the time but I had the chance to work with really awesome people there. And then I decided that so, back to tiger mom, my mom had signed me up for the GMAT when I was in college during a  break. She was basically like, you don't need time off, you're just gonna take the GMAT. And so my GMAT score expired like I had to use it or lose it.   [Naber] Oh no.   [Danielle Peretore] So I applied to business school, went off to HBS for two years,  and then came back, after HBS I was recruited by my boss from LinkedIn, so a company called NerdWallet. And then I was recruited from Nerdwallet by another boss from LinkedIn, his name is Christian, he's now the CEO of Glassdoor to Glassdoor. And here I am.   [Naber] Excellent. So let's pull up here. And we'll talk about a couple of different things. One is, you've been at some great companies. And you've been at those companies through the prime of part of their hyper-growth phases.   [Danielle Peretore] Yes.   [Naber] And one of the things that I'd love to hear from you is around, specifically the biz ops and strategy superpowers that each one of those businesses have. So let's start with LinkedIn. What was LinkedIn's superpower, what is something that they did extremely well, better than the rest, that you said like, this is the thing that they were elite at, from a business opt and strategy perspective that you lived through, that every company should have, whether it is natural or learned?   [Danielle Peretore] Yeah, so I don't know if this is technically biz ops and strategy, so tell me if I'm going down the wrong path, but something that I think that LinkedIn did incredibly well, and credit to their CEO Jeff Weiner, is they defined a mission and vision, and managed to use that  both in communicating externally, like it was very clear what LinkedIn was here to do and what they were looking to be, and also internally. They drove it down through the ranks internally in a way that there is no way that anyone who worked at LinkedIn, from the most senior levels down to someone who was on a contract basis, didn't understand the purpose of what they were doing there every day. And I thought that was truly exceptional. When I first started at LinkedIn I was young, it was my second job. I didn't really have much experience at different kinds of companies, and even I knew from the minute I walked in that door,  this is what we're here to do. This is my job today, and this is how I'm impacting both LinkedIn and the world.    [Naber] That's great. Okay, while we're on LinkedIn. What were a couple of the coolest projects you worked on at that time? There's a lot of different definitions for biz ops and not necessarily for strategy, but a lot of different definitions and ways that one would kind of ring fence or define biz ops. And as we go through each of these companies and talk about what they're great at, I'd also love to hear some of the really cool one or two projects you worked on. So at LinkedIn, what were some of the coolest one or two projects that you worked on?   [Danielle Peretore] Yeah,  sure. So I worked for a guy at LinkedIn, he was a VP of biz ops, his  name was Dan Yoo. He's an incredible, incredible person. He's been my mentor for a long time. He wrote my recommendations for business school, recruited me to NerdWallet. And he, I think arguably, really did a lot of the definition of what biz ops is today. And there are two different types of Biz Ops teams. Biz ops evolved a bit later in the tech lifecycle, as tech was a bunch of small companies, you don't really get a bunch of MBAs running around.  And there've now been companies with two different versions of biz ops. One is the dedicated biz ops model, where you have a team that is, you have biz ops for all the different leaders of the organization. Biz ops for products, biz ops for sales, biz ops for marketing. That's Dan Yoo's view of the world, and what it looked at LinkedIn and NerdWallet. And Glassdoor is similar but slightly different. It's more of a centralized team that works on broad, cross-department initiatives instead of having a biz ops partner exactly devoted to marketing and only what the priorities are of that marketing leader or the sales leader. It becomes a bit broader and you've projects that really no one else can get done, 'cause they don't stay on all those different teams.   [Naber] What are the strengths of both of those models? Just quick interjection.   [Danielle Peretore] Yeah. I think the strengths, it's a really good question. So I think there's a lot of pretty obvious strengths to the dedicated biz ops business partner model 'cause then you are literally infusing really smart strategic thinking throughout the whole organization. What I always recommend, what I don't think is great, is when you do that and then have those teams actually report up through the functions, they report up through product or through marketing, 'cause then you lose that connection. What's awesome is to have a biz ops for marketing person thinking with the biz ops for product person, applying unified frameworks. So if you have a centralized team that's dedicated to the different parts of the business, what you end up doing is infusing that thinking through the organization, in actually a holistic way. But the downside of that model is, sometimes companies just kind of aren't big enough to bear it. If you think about the background of someone who's a biz ops or strategy person, they're someone who likely has, they may have an MBA, they've thought about leadership, they've thought about strategic thinking, they think about the path forward for any organization. Having a biz ops leader parallel with every single leader of a different business unit or a different function, it can be overkill. And so I think it's really dependent on both the company's stage and size, and also how the company functions. You know, do things really get done centrally, is there central strategic thinking, or is it more that you wanna infuse strategic thinking, but you wanna make sure that you're not overdoing it as well.   [Naber] Excellent. Okay, sorry to interrupt your thought, carry on.   [Danielle Peretore] Yeah, so at LinkedIn and NerdWallet, they were both run by the same guy,  by Dan Yoo, and so they were much more the centralized team, but dedicated business partner model. Biz ops for product, biz ops for marketing, biz ops for sales, and then teams underneath them. And then at Glassdoor, it is a little bit different. So it's a stellar team, it's super smart people, but they work a bit more on cross-functional products. So we'll have someone who's biz ops for all international, they own our international expansion strategy. Then they'll have biz ops for our jobs marketplace, and our jobs marketplace under rides, it touches product, it touches marketing, it touches sales. But really no one else other than the biz ops teams could own these areas, because they're centralized, they're super smart, and they're really close to the executive teams, they can get things done.   [Naber] Okay, let's wrap LinkedIn. So at LinkedIn, can you give us maybe an example of a really cool, nerdy project, fun project you worked on LinkedIn that you think was, maybe either the biggest project you worked on or the most fun project you worked on.   [Danielle Peretore] Yeah, the answer to those is probably the same. So I built our expansion strategy into Latin America, which it is was funny, I was originally hired to LinkedIn too, partially 'cause I spoke Portuguese, they were looking for someone who could work in Brazil, and then they kind of launched Brazil and let it run, so I didn't touch much of it from there, but two years later, they were deciding whether they should expand into Mexico and Argentina, et cetera et cetera, and I travelled down to Mexico, met with a bunch of different people down there to determine if we  should open up an office there. Did a bunch of research on Latin America and then eventually published our expansion strategy. But I think the coolest part of that was that I built a framework that I heard was still in use, probably not today, but a couple of years back was still in use. It was a framework to use for prioritizing markets for entry. You know to figure out where to go next. And I loved that, that was super fun. I mean it also involved me going to Mexico with these two amazing and hilarious Brazilian men and me. You know, so they were toting me around, so I'm in the back trying to take notes in these languages that I 50% understand. So that was pretty fun. [Naber] Nice, cool. And can you tell us a little bit about that framework? About the framework you built?   [Danielle Peretore] Yeah. So you're really testing the limits of my memory, 'cause this is now like six or seven years ago, but I'm gonna try. So what the framework had, it basically was evaluating in any decision to enter a new international market, I think something that I have seen companies get wrong is basically saying, there's a massive potential in this market, and therefore we should go for it. I mean the most classic example obviously is basically Google trying to enter China. Right? It's huge, you feel like you gotta be there, but the environment is just. There are really three elements. There's like, is it a big market, but is the environment hostile, and then also what is your, what are your consumer metrics like there? You know, when companies think about expanding internationally, the first, and web companies obviously, this is tech and internet companies, but the first thing that you do is you get a domain in that country and you start trying to build up your UGC, your User Generated Content. So for Facebook, they want members there, they want people posting. For Google actually I'm not entirely sure  that they want, what their UGC might be, but they're probably trying to launch Google Photos, get people using the platform. For LinkedIn, it was getting members there. For Glassdoor, it's getting people to post reviews and salaries et cetera. So building up that UGC pool. And then at that point, you can make a decision on entry. But really if any of those three factors are off, you're in trouble. One, market size. Two, hostility. Maybe not hostility as too punitive, but essentially how friendly this environment is, both to business just generally and also to your particular brand of business. And then thirdly, what does your own consumer penetration look like there? What do you have to build on?   [Naber] Awesome, that's great. Thanks so much.   [Danielle Peretore] Yeah, oh sure.   [Naber] So, let's jump into NerdWallet. What's the one thing they do extremely well?   [Danielle Peretore] Yeah, so NerdWallet is such an interesting business. I mean that business is just a crazy cash cow. It is nuts. I've never seen anything like it. I think I've always, the other companies that I've been at have been along the enterprise SaaS model, which I love. I love working in enterprise businesses, I think they're really interesting, a lot of people don't but I do. they get a kickback, and it's brilliant. And so it's really, what I thought was really cool at NerdWallet, they have two superpowers. One, the way you win that market, the way you win the search market, is just having, there are hacky ways to do it that everybody knows. There's Ask.com and whatever that Google's always trying to kind of take a hit at. But so, let's, assuming you don't go the hacky way, the real way to do it is you build an incredible content asset. And what NerdWallet has done, which I think is so cool, they have their head of content is this woman named Maggie, and she's super impressive. She has an awesome background in journalism. And they have hired a team of badass journalists. Really great writers, really badass people who are experts across different parts of the personal-finance spectrum. And they do two things, one is some writers have managed to marry writing on interesting topics with what that's actually going to mean for search results, like how is this going to appear in search results? How is this going to get your page truncation? And then secondly, they now have an investigative reporting arm. Which is so cool. So they've got a team that goes out and digs into personal finance issues, and potentially at their own risk in terms of not really ingratiating themselves to some of the financial players, they'll publish exposes. But they've built is amazing. I mean at least when I left it was, that team was probably almost a hundred people. A lot of them are remote, but really talented, really strong people. So that's one amazing thing they've built there. The second thing that again comes from Dan Yoo, who you're gonna hear me mention a lot, at biz ops, I'm sorry, in biz ops at LinkedIn and then of course at NerdWallet.  To some extent, we got this, by the way, from Jeff Weiner at LinkedIn. And so, just, I've never seen, or not that I've never seen in a sense I've worked for these guys for a long time, but in comparison, they are incredibly data-driven. And data-driven in a way that it flows down through the entire organization. Kind of like I was mentioning with mission and vision at LinkedIn as well, but they're data-driven in a way that every single person knows what metric they are driving towards, and what metric they are responsible for. This is really, really hard to do. Building a culture that is that data-driven. Not everyone you hire top-down throughout the organization. Data-driven executive decision making, and then translating that data and those insights and that strategy to the field is something you've had to do at multiple businesses, multiple roles, something you obviously get quite good at. Let's take each one of those one at a time. So firstly, can you explain data-driven executive decision making, and how do you think about it, what's your mindset, what's the method and process you use to go about doing that?   [Danielle Peretore] Yeah, no it's a great question. So that's something that we have, we have been working through really actively makes all decisions based on data, And the inherent thing about data is it will always contradict itself. Always. So you can have two metrics that are beautifully defined, the data can be clean and accurate, and I guarantee you, they will at times clash. If they're aiming to do the same thing or measure the same thing, they will at times contradict themselves. It's just how data works, and especially data in the world that we live today where tech companies collect a ton of data on their users, on their customers, et cetera. And so in the worlds where you've got a leader who wants a ton of data and a ton of metrics, you could often end up where you are both using too many resources to produce data and produce metrics. You're just spending too much time on it as a company. Two, you're actually confusing executive decision making, it's very hard to come to a consensus. And then three, you're just kind of at a point where you may truly not know what to do with the business. You need to have data limited enough that there's one or two metrics that you use to drive your  decision making, and you don't introduce all this confusion. And so I think those are the watch-outs in that first scenario. In the second, take a leader where you have someone who makes decisions based on their gut, you have to really train them to use and trust data. That's really hard to do. It's really hard to get someone who, and this I think especially happens with leaders who re founders, or leaders have been at the company and built the company for a long time. What you'll hear from them is, "I know the data says that, "but I've been here, I've seen how this company was built, "I know how customers buy X company, "how they buy X product." And so that becomes a real uphill battle. And in that instance I think what you need to do is spend a lot of time thinking about what are the few metrics that you know are indicative of the business,  and then even if it's not a focus of discussion, just bring it up, every single week, in the management meeting, we're gonna look at this metric. And then provide the appropriate level of commentary, so that what'll happen is, they'll see the business shift, and see the metrics shift in that direction over time. But that requires a lot of time, and there's really no way around just showing that this business went in this direction, remember that this metric was indicating that about 10 weeks ago, here's how you marry them.   [Naber] Okay, great. So, we talked about data-driven executive decision making. Let's say you get to a point where you're making a decision, you're going in a specific direction. How then do you translate that data, that information, those insights to the field?   [Danielle Peretore] Yeah. This is something I think about a lot. And the reason I think is, so I  think I mean it's obviously important for the reasons that I talked about earlier with both  LinkedIn and NerdWallet where I thought something that was so amazing was that every single person at those companies knew what metric they were driving and how they were contributing to the business. So it is an incredibly powerful thing to roll data, and specifically, not just data on how to do your job, be data on the core business metrics and how we as a  company are driving to that, down to the field, and down to the lowest levels of the organization. It's massively valuable. What you then end up having is, you're having a conversation with executives on noticing that a metric is up or down, and you know exactly what to go do to drive that metric in whichever direction you want. So let's say one of your metrics is down, and the question becomes, how do we fix it. If let's say your sales reps, or your customer success reps, or  whoever's responsible for that metric, is not only monitoring, but also responsible for, incentivize on that metric, all you do is say, "Great, we're gonna go talk to that team." It becomes like a really beautiful loop. That said, there are a lot of metrics at the executive level that are not really appropriate for the field. And so this is where it gets complicated. At the executive level, for example, the number of calls that a sales rep makes is really important for how good they are at their job. Super basic, super important. Should the CEO be tracking the number of calls that a sales rep makes? Absolutely not.  Should the CEO be tracking the sales rep's overall productivity in dollars? Absolutely. That said, you're not gonna drive, let's say, you're not gonna say to sales reps, "Well, the team you're on "has been less productive this year, "and we need you to drive that up." They're gonna be like, "What do you want me to do about it?" What they need to know is, make more calls, send more e-mails, have more in-person meetings. And so figuring out how to balance the need for at the executive level to have macro metrics, metrics that are large enough, that encompass essentially a broad enough swathe of the business that they're meaningful, and having metrics that go to the field that are actionable, something they can specifically drive. And so I think that balance is really important. And so as awesome as it is when you can find a metric that you can drive all the way through from the CEO all the way down to the field, that's amazing, sometimes you need modifications and tweaks in order to do that.   [Naber] So when you're doing that  for different types of teams, like marketing, sales, customer success specifically, in the commercial stack, do you have to approach that translation and that rolling out in different ways based on those types of themes, and if so, what are some of the differences?   [Danielle Peretore] Yes, definitely. There, I'm laughing as I say this, because definitely. Those teams, one of the great learnings that I've had of working on the go to market world, is just how differently these teams are driven, even though they work so closely together. So the most core example of that is, what does a salesperson respond to? They respond to more pay, basically, it just comes down to pay. So tell them how to hit their quota, so they can make more money, they're on board. Someone in marketing, not only are they not on a quota, and therefore you can't just pay them more, but also someone who goes into marketing, that isn't, they're just a very different person from someone who goes into sales. Especially I think in marketing, customer success, you get a lot of people who just really love working with clients, they love working with customers. They really thrive in the environment where they're thinking about, how do we get our message out there, how do we ensure that people understand who we are, how do we make sure that someone has a quality experience? The thank-you that they get from a customer can be as valuable as an extra $20,000 is to a sales rep. And so these teams work so closely together, but they're, not only are there incentives in terms of how they're paid so different, but literally their incentives they often share clients, but they are so different. And so for salespeople, again, it just comes down to, think about their incentives structure. Think about their compensation plan. Beyond these very early days of a start-up, you're going to be hiring salespeople whose behaviour will be driven by how you pay them. So if you pay them to just go out and get dollars, they'll just go out and get dollars. It doesn't mean they're getting dollars the way you want them to get dollars. “and here's what I'm gonna give you "if you sell this product." The same would go for if you want them to drive certain activity. It might be that for example, some companies have hybrid sales reps, and it is always easier to just go and try and sell more products to a customer that's already convinced, that already buys from you, than it is to go make a new sale to someone who has no sense of your company and who you  are. You may need to incentivize reps to go and do that new business motion which takes a lot more time, is a lot harder, than kind of going and fishing in the existing pools. So my biggest lesson of working with sales teams is incentives are everything. Customer success is a whole different animal. Customer success, I mean customer success obviously takes many different  forms and it can mean many different things to different companies, but typically the people  ho take a job We had a product where we had a very strong hypothesis, which I think by the way was the right one, which is that most employees when you sign up for a healthcare plan through your employer, you have literally no idea what you're choosing. You have no idea if it's the right plan for you, no idea if it's the right plan for your family. And so we built a tool that would plug into your healthcare plan options as an employer, and that you would then roll out for employees to use in onboarding so they could select, I go to the doctor this many times a  year, I need these kinds of specialists, I have this many dependents et cetera, and it would spit out the healthcare plan that was the most effective and efficient for you. And it was really cool, I mean I loved working on it. But we ended up folding it. And the big lesson that I took from that is one, healthcare is really, really, really hard. Regulated spaces are really, really, really hard, they're also where we're going to do the most good for the world, but they are so difficult. And you need to be really dedicated to figuring that out. And then I think secondly, I just learned a  good lesson there on what companies are willing and not willing to pay for. Which is a great lesson for someone who works in the enterprise business and has been working in SaaS-like spaces. Companies, essentially if we were able to say to them, we're going to reduce your healthcare costs by rolling out this tool, they'd be like, "Awesome, we're totally on board." But this was just a way to make things easier, and the value prop was just not quite as clear in that way, right. I guess I wouldn't say the value prop in the sense that there was value, there was clear value to it, employees loved it. But the specific value to the employer we couldn't quantify. And it becomes so important to quantify. If you can't quantify, it's basically dead in the water.   [Naber] Yeah, good one. Okay, Glassdoor, what is something that, what's one of Glassdoor's superpowers? What's something they do extremely well?   [Danielle Peretore] Yeah, Glassdoor's superpower is actually easy, and I should say, I love Glassdoor. I think it's an amazing company, I'm so happy there. Part of this is because Glassdoor, what Glassdoor does well is they are an excellent employer. And we should be, right, we literally collect data on what it means to be a good workplace. But we truly walk the walk and talk the talk in a way that I haven't really seen any company do before. I mean again, of course, this is our product, right, our product is talking about what makes a great workplace, what makes a great manager, how to ensure you're fairly paid. But Glassdoor lives those values to a  tee. Glassdoor has an exceptionable executive team, a really exceptionable executive team, who are, they're incredibly smart, they're incredibly talented and driven, but they care deeply about their employees and their employee's experience. Employee happiness surveys, we send Glint surveys twice a year. We have a full 360 review twice a year, there's a lot of feedback and a huge focus on how to be a good manager, how to treat your employees well, and then from the HR side, Glassdoor publishes studies of its own data on whether we're fairly paid, all the time, across all of the metrics, across genders, across races, et cetera. It is an exceptional and deeply thoughtful place to work, and we leverage what we learn in the marketplace to be a great employer ourselves.   [Naber] Wow, that's great. I love the proactive transparency behind all of it too. If you need to talk speak categorically about this, go for it, but an example of a really big or cool project that you've worked on, or are working on at Glassdoor?   [Danielle Peretore] Yeah, something I have thought a lot about is you first, and there are  companies that have inverted this and gone for start-ups first, but often you tend to go for large enterprise-type customers first, they've got budgets, they've got money, you sell a bunch of enterprise customers, you build, sometimes even a custom product, you definitely have a super customized service motion and model that you have for them, and that's how you get out and you get product-market fit, you start to build your base of customers. And then over time, the enterprise space is finite. There's only so many Fortune 100, Fortune 500, Fortune 1,000  companies out there. And something, and forgive me if I misquote this, but something like 60% of employers in the US have less than 10 employees. So tons of SMBs out there. That goes to goes to say the SMB space is huge, and then so you start to figure out how you can sell into the SMB space. And as you do that, and that is kind of, I am equating that with when a company scales, although of course as I mentioned, some companies will start small and go big. Either way, for your first initial customers, you likely are building a relatively high touch service model. They've got two or three people who are at their beck and call, they need anything we're there, providing super superior service. But over time, and as you scale, you can't do that anymore. One, because as your company grows, you just run out of venture money, you just get to a point where profit matters. Uber is Obviously defying all of these truisms, but for most companies eventually, you need to start turning a profit. But secondly, as you start to sell into smaller companies, or you have smaller deal sizes, it doesn't make sense to have a dedicated team servicing a really small customer. So what do you do? And that's where automation comes in. And I think that this is an interesting space in that a few years ago, automation was kind of super hot. Everyone was buying tons and ton of different products. it's been something that's been on the table at all the companies I've been at, 'cause all of the companies I've been at have been in hyper-growth.   [Naber] Okay, I've got one more question for you, and then we'll wrap. If someone's looking to build out a biz ops and strategy team,  or biz ops and strategy function, do you have a couple of best practices or a mindset that they just need to nail these one or two or three things that they're gonna build out that function and be really successful?   [Danielle Peretore] Yeah, that's a  good question. So I'd say a couple of things. One, your biz op, the person that you hire to lead your biz ops team, you want them to be a strategic thinker, So you need someone who's going to be able to walk into that room and convince a sceptical executive team of the importance and the value of data. So that first hire is really important. And then also as I mentioned, of course, they've gotta be a really strategic thinker. This has gotta someone who sees the whole picture of the company and can play ball with executives and those senior levels. And the reason they need to be a really strong people leader is the kind of people that  you wanna hire on a biz ops team, they're gonna be super data-driven, super strategic like their  leader, and they're also going to be pretty intense, and going to be people who are, they're  really looking to build a career, they wanna know what their next steps are, they've gotten, the   was never good enough for them, they got the A plus. And so enabling, you want someone who's going to enable the people who do both attract really strong talent and then manage them well. And managing people who are really high octane, really high output, sometimes it's easy to let them run, but they actually, they need a lot of support. They certainly need a lot of coaching, they're going to want a lot of guidance, they're people who are going to seek out their manager for help. So having someone who's a really strong people leader is incredibly important. And then I think in terms of who you hire next, something that I've found is really useful is I send a homework assignment. Again, maybe self-evident, but I think this is something that, send, obviously clean-up the data, make sure that the data that you're sending out is not proprietary, I don't want anybody getting in trouble, so these are not things in that proprietary  data, out a data exercise, someone on my team did, again, scrubbed, can't say that enough, scrub that data. And then I ask them to both manipulate the data, but also to put together a  presentation. And I do this actually pretty mu h across all levels. You learn so much from that.  There are so many people that you'll say, oh they've got a great background. But what you don't know, and I think one of the major flaws of interviewing and hiring in general, is you just really ever know, you're just asking questions. You don't know how someone would do with the job, to actually do in the job So send them a sample piece of work. See how they handle it. It'll tell you 90% of what you need to know.   [Naber] Hey everybody, thanks so much for listening. If you appreciated and enjoyed the episode, go ahead and make a comment on the post for the episode on LinkedIn. If you love The  Naberhood podcast we'd love for you to subscribe, rate, and give us a five-star review on iTunes. Until next time, go get it.  

Guest: Ryan Bonnici - Chief Marketing Officer @G2 (Formerly @HubSpot, @Salesforce, @ExactTarget, @Microsoft; Writer @HBR, @Forbes) Guest Background: Ryan Bonnici is the Chief Marketing Officer of G2 Crowd, where he's driving the growth of the world's leading B2B technology review platform that's helping more than 1.5 million business professionals make informed purchasing decisions every single month. With previous positions leading global marketing at HubSpot, Salesforce, and ExactTarget, Ryan's marketing and SaaS expertise has been featured in Forbes, Business Insider, Entrepreneur, and LifeHacker.  Guest Links: LinkedIn | Twitter | Facebook | Instagram How We Grew Our Organic Traffic to 1 Million Monthly Visitors in Under a Year The Most Important Marketing Metric You're Not Measuring Learn.G2.com Episode Summary: In this episode, we cover: - The Inbound Marketing Playbook - The Art & Science of Marketing Metrics - Ryan's Methodology - Hiring and Retaining World-Class Talent - B2B Brand Building - What can we Learn from B2C? - Social Media Strategy - Ryan Talk's the Talk AND Walk's the Walk Full Interview Transcript: Naber:  Hello friends around the world. My name is Brandon Naber. Welcome to the Naberhood, where we have switched on, fun discussions with some of the most brilliant, successful, experienced, talented and highly skilled Sales and Marketing minds on the planet, from the world's fastest-growing companies. Enjoy! Naber:  Hey everybody. Today we have Ryan Bonnici on the show. Ryan is the Chief Marketing Officer of G2, formerly known as G2 Crowd. They have a $500 million evaluation on $100 million capital raised, where he's driving growth of the world's leading B2B technology review platform that's helping more than 1.5 million business professionals make informed purchasing decisions every single month. With previous positions leading global Marketing at HubSpot (who IPO'd back in 2014, they currently have a $7.5 billion evaluation), also Salesforce (who also IPO'd, they have $124 billion valuation), and ExactTarget (who Salesforce purchased). Ryan's Marketing and SaaS expertise has been featured in Forbes, Harvard Business Review, Business Insider, Entrepreneur.com and Life Hacker. Here we go. Naber:  Ryan, awesome to have you on the show. How are you? Ryan Bonnici:    I'm doing well, Brandon, thank you so much for having me. Naber:  Good. It is amazing to...I can see you right now, see your lovely hair, and hear your lovely accent, which is always a treat for me. You're in Chicago right now, correct? Ryan Bonnici:    I am, yeah. I moved from Australia to the US a few years ago, and it's beautiful, sunny and warm outside, so I can't complain. Naber:  Awesome. I've done some solid research on your personal and professional, from all the content you've put out there, and I'm pretty convinced, based on the moves that you made, that you're doing your penance for growing up in beautiful, best in the world to live Sydney and Cronulla, by trying to attempt to live in the coldest, major market cities in the US - in Boston, Chicago. Ryan Bonnici:    Haha, yeah...this is true. Naber:  No slag on those cities because I love both of them. Lived in Chicago for about five years as well. Hey, let's jump in. So, I know that you've had such an amazing career and, in the intro everyone's heard a lot of your accomplishments as well as a bunch of the companies you've gone through. So, what we'll do, I think today is we'll jump into some personal stuff first, for maybe a few minutes, and go through what it was growing up as Ryan Bonnici, and then we'll hop into some of the professional, and that'll be the meat of what we talk about. Sound okay? Ryan Bonnici:    Sounds amazing. Naber:  Cool. Trinity Grammar School, growing up in Cronulla, going through all the interesting things you did in your childhood to become the person you are today - which I believe, a perennial overachiever, which I'll talk about in a second. But talk about a little bit about, maybe three or four minutes, on what it was like being Ryan Bonnici as a child and growing up. Ryan Bonnici:    Good question. Gosh, I think in one word, what it was like growing up as Ryan Bonnici as the child, would be "lonely" a little bit. Yeah, I was an only child. And, my parents wanted to have more kids, but they stay separated when I was young. And then I got back together, and they eventually divorced, but they didn't really want to have a second child because they weren't sure about what was gonna happen with their relationship. And so, I don't know. I remember just growing up and always wanting a brother or sister or someone to play with. And so, I definitely feel like I was a very different person then than who I am now. But I don't know, I think that shaped me to be honest, in good ways and in bad ways. So I think, early on and growing up, decided that I was going to put my self worth on my accomplishments, which I wouldn't recommend people do necessarily because you will always be unfulfilled because you're always trying to get the next best thing, or to make yourself better, or be better. And flash forward 30 years, and through a lot of therapy, I've been able to unfold a lot of that stuff. But, yeah, I don't know, that's probably the one word that would best describe me - maybe "lonely", and probably not very social. Which is bizarre, because I think across Linkedin, and Instagram, and Twitter, and different social networks, I probably have a few hundred thousand followers, which I share a lot of content with. So, I come across really social, but I'm secretly just an extroverted introvert. I grew up in Sydney, Australia. I didn't really focus all that much on school up until year 11 and 12, which are the two final years of high school, in Australia. And I don't know what it was, but something just clicked in my mind, and I was like, I really want to get a really good GPA because I want to be able to get into any University in the world. And so I worked my butt off and I got a 4.0... Naber:  Wow. Ryan Bonnici:    And then went to university for a year, and I was a bit burned out at university, and then I took a couple of years off from studying to be an international flight attendant, which kind is random. Naber:  That's pretty cool. Ryan Bonnici:    Really fun. It helped me save up to buy my first investment property back when I was 19... Naber:  Wow. Wow. Ryan Bonnici:    Yeah, and then I can jump into the career stuff, or happy to answer more questions on the growing up, or wherever you want to take it, Brandon. Naber:  No, that's good. That's good. Let's pause there just for 30 seconds, and then we'll hop into some career stuff. But, you mentioned, you mentioned the word "lonely", and you've talked about - in a lot of the content you've put out around mental health, mental health in the workplace, and how it shaped you professionally - can you talk a little bit about that? Because you're really passionate about it. And, I think that's probably a good place to start because you talked about how some of the events in your childhood had shaped you up until who you are today. Can you just give us a little bit more about that, and how it shaped you as to who you are right now? Ryan Bonnici:    Yeah, sure. So I think mental health is just something that, I think it impacts everyone to some degree. Some people have good mental health, somebody will have poor mental health. And I think everyone will experience poor a mental health, at certain times of their lives. I think for me, and my family anyways, there's definitely a genetic component because my mum, my mum's mum, there's quite a significant amount of depression and suicidality in our family. So I think some of my own experiences growing up, as well as some of just my genetics, I think predisposes me to have more issues in that space. Which I think I used to view as a problem, but now I just view it actually as something that needs to be trained in the same way that I train my body by going to the gym, I train my mind by going to therapy and doing different therapeutic modalities. And so, I think growing up as an only child and experiencing bullying when I was in primary school, just sort of...I think you attachment to your friends, your attachment to your family, your attachment to these key figures in your early years is really paramount in your formation of the world, and relationships, and whether or not you, when you interact with someone, whether you are going to over-index for them being trustworthy, or you're going to over index for them being someone who's going to take advantage of you, or whatnot. So I think for very good half of my career, I was definitely the latter. So I, unconsciously anyways, viewed everyone around me as a potential bully. And so that meant that I was super competitive and was always thinking about how people around me were going to, I don't know, get in my way, or take me down, or stabbing in the back, which sounds really dramatic. And it wasn't like I was going through my jobs and literally thinking that, and like planning behind the scenes. But I think what I've learned for therapy now, is that I think, and in some ways, I think I've grown a lot of empathy actually toward those parts of me that felt that way, and still sometimes do feel that way, because they were defensive and they were protective, right? They protected me when I was young by not trusting peopl..kids, when I was younger. It protected me from enduring more bullying. But once I was no longer at school, and in university, and at work where that doesn't really ever happen all that much, still sometimes happens, but not all that much, it's definitely less helpful of a strategy. So I think that shaped me in some ways and meant that I focus more on, I'll talk about it a bit later, but I think in career success you really need to focus on relationships and results, the two R's. And I think, it probably meant for me the earlier on in my career, I over-indexed on results. And I think now I do a better job at,equally indexing between results and relationships. Naber:  Wow. That's great. That's a really good framework for people to think about. Thank you. And then I really appreciate you sharing all of that as well. We're lucky enough to know each other personally and professionally, which is really cool. So, I wish we had three hours, four hours, 10 hours to talk about this stuff right now. So that's actually a really good segue. You mentioned getting into university and then getting into your first few gigs and over indexing on results. Can you walk us through some of your, just walking through your professional jumps in the roles that you've had? Maybe in three or four minutes, and then I'll hop into a couple of questions about some of the superpowers I know that you have, and some of the things you've written about as well, so we can get a little bit more of your mindset. Ryan Bonnici:    Sure. Yeah. So, I basically started, my career in tech started at Microsoft, into Microsoft for their, I forget what it was called, but it was basically their accelerator program, their leadership program. Microsoft either hires people that are fresh out of university that they identify as folks with leadership potential, and they fast track them to management, or they hire people with 10 plus years of experience. Microsoft almost exclusively never hired anyone with from one to nine years. So I entered through that leadership track, and that was my first exposure to Marketing. I always knew I wanted it to be a CMO. And weirdly, I always knew I wanted to be a CMO before 30. So yeah, I started my career at Microsoft. And then, after spending some time there and learning a lot about B2C Marketing, a company called ExactTarget, which was based out of Indianapolis, in the US, was growing internationally. And Microsoft was a really big user of ExactTarget's email Marketing platform, of which I was a user. And so when they launched Asia Pacific, they hired me as their first Partnerships Marketer. So I then joined ExactTarget, and spent a few years at ExactTarget. And there I really was able to move up, in both experience and in leadership. And so, I built out a big team there across Asia Pacific while I was at ExactTarget. And then ExactTarget was acquired by Salesforce. So I was able to then spend a few years at Salesforce running their Marketing for Asia Pacific. Again, a really remarkable super innovative company, but quite a bit smaller than...a little bit bigger than ExactTarget, but quite a bit smaller, the Microsoft. So I was running all of their B2B Marketing. And so, at ExactTarget, I suppose I was able to really refine, I would say my enterprise B2B Marketing playbooks. So how do you work with Sales to create net-new Sales opportunities for Sales, as well as nurture and accelerate existing Sales opportunities to move them through Sales process faster. So it's very high touch, low volume game, the enterprise B2B playbook. And I had done that for quite a few years and really enjoyed it, but I felt I had really pushed it to its extreme. And, at that time, I was really interested in the company called HubSpot because I was fascinated by how they were doing Marketing, and I love their product. And so I then moved to HubSpot, and was the first Marketing hire in APAC, and then built out their APAC Marketing Team across Sydney, Singapore, Japan. And what I loved about HubSpot, and what was really important to me in my journey, was that HubSpot was still B2B Marketing, but it was B2B at scale, right? So we were selling our software platform, which was an all in one Marketing and Sales platform to small and medium businesses. I think the average sale was about a thousand dollars per month, for HubSpot. And so when you're selling a product that, it's less about high touch and more about, high volume. And so that was really important to me because, eventually I still do want to start my own company. And while I love the enterprise playbook that I used at ExactTarget and Salesforce, when you're throwing big events and doing a lot of that high touch, high hand holding activities, it's really expensive, right? We're talking millions of dollars. Whereas at HubSpot, we had much tighter budgets because we were much more focused on ROI-focused Marketing, and the biggest driver and the most effective driver for ROI-focused Marketing and B2B, and in B2C actually in a lot of senses, is content Marketing. It takes a little bit more time than some of the other strategies, but once you build up traffic from content, the leads, and the MQL's, and the revenue just keeps flowing. So I love...probably prior to G2, my time at HubSpot, those three years, the most proud, time of my life. It was also really challenging, but I learned so much in that first year, about how to do scalable Marketing. So I'm so grateful to have worked there, and just genuinely love the team there so much. I then moved over from Sydney to the US with HubSpot to run their Global Marketing in the sense of digital, social, brand campaigns, PR - and that was fun because it exposed me to another part of Marketing that I didn't have as much exposure to in APAC. And then about, gosh, a little under two years ago, then moved to G2. And the reason why I wanted to move to G2 is that I love B2B, but I think eventually I realistically want to get back to B2C or a B2B / B2C role. And what I love about G2 and a lot of the most innovative businesses today - like Uber, Airbnb, they're all marketplaces... Naber:  Marketplaces, yeah. Two-side or three-sided marketplaces. It's amazing. Ryan Bonnici:    Yeah. And they're really fascinating, and super complex and difficult. But I wanted that challenge. I think, if you look at my roles from moving in B2C at Microsoft, to Enterprise B2B, to SMB B2B, I don't like it when I'm comfortable, because I don't feel I'm learning. And I find it takes me a year to basically, without sounding an arrogant douche bag, it takes me a year to become an expert at something. So, my first year at G2 I was hopeless maybe. First year at HubSpot, I wasn't hopeless, but I didn't feel I could add as much value necessarily as the other marketers on the team had been there longer. And I find, typically it takes me six to 12 months to learn everything from that industry and that company and the existing people on the team. And then at the six to 12 month point, I'm able to have a bit more of an integrative understanding of what we should do next because of all of the experiences that I've had. And so, yeah, I always find that when I do my best work is from years one to three, the end of years one to three. Yeah. Naber:  Very cool. That's actually amazing to know about yourself. You know, wot many people really have that self reflection, understanding of where their best work comes from, how long it takes them to be good at something, what the expectation of themselves, and how to manage that. That's, that's great. I've always been so impressed, impressed by your career, for a lot of reasons. You've accomplished more in a shorter space of time than most, and at really high velocity. But a lot of people that do that, they usually go usually a "T". As in they usually have a lot they have very thin breadth across a lot of things, but a lot of depth in one thing. You have depth and so many things across a Sales and Marketing spectrum because of you're unique set of circumstances, that you both put yourself in, and that you were put in a for the roles and responsibilities that you've had. All the way across, operations, digital, and Sales, and Sales Development. You actually, mentioned that, your job is part marketer and part Sales person and one of your articles. And I think that that's just a true testament to your background, your experiences, to have that mindset. But one of the things I want to talk about right now, you just mentioned, all the amazing businesses you'd worked with. I want to talk about talent. And how you think about attracting, pipelining, hiring, retaining great employees. So you and I both subscribe to the same mindset, I believe, from the content that you've put out there and from having conversations, that talent and hiring is the number one priority for every business. And should be for every single hiring manager as the CEO of that hiring process. So always be pipelining, even and especially when you're not hiring so you can get rockstars on your team, regardless of having readily available headcount or budget, regardless of of having those things open. So let's break those things down. attract pipeline, hire and retain. You talk about in some of your content, I think it was in an Entrepreneur.com article, you talk about not just thinking about Sales and Marketing from an inbound perspective, but thinking about recruiting, hiring and attracting talent from an inbound perspective. Can you talk a little bit about that mindset, and how you apply that to the way that you hire talent? Ryan Bonnici:    Sure, sure. Yeah. So, I think the reality is, and the way I think about recruiting is, most people that are actively looking for a job are actively looking because they're probably not good at their job, and that's the reality. And people that are good at their job, they don't look for jobs. They are constantly...they're working hard, they're doing a great job for the company that they're at, and it's businesses that intrigue them that they might want to speak to. So, I'm at a loss for words for the exact word that I described this. I did a talk on this once at a big HR conference in Singapore. But you've got people that are actively in the process, and then you've got your inactive folks. And you're active folks make up something like 10% of the pool, and inactive or dormant candidates, which again, that's not the right word for it, make up 90% of... Naber:  Passive candidates. Ryan Bonnici:    Yeah, your passive candidates are making up...they're the best candidates, but they're not the ones coming to job boards and looking for you. And so you really need to be focused on how do you attract them. And so I'm a really big believer in that, for really key talent. you need to be proactively meeting, and building relationships, and learning about people and what they're doing and working on. And so I probably do job interviews...I interview about, I don't know, maybe five to 10 people a week. Sometimes for roles and I don't even have open. And when I say interview, that's a very loose term. It's more so, 50% of those might be official interviews, 50% of them are literally just coffee catch ups - where I've sent a note to let's say, the Head of PR at a big marketplace that I won't say because I have spoken to someone recently in that space, and I'm like "Hey, I absolutely love the PR that you're doing at your company. I read a few of these stories, and they're fascinating. Would love to just sync up marketer to marketer and see if we could learn from each other and just chat" And I genuinely actually do, I just want to get to know these people and learn about them. And all of the best hires I've ever made have been passive candidates, because it's based off of their work, not them being actively in the cycle. So whenever I see a great company running a great campaign, I'll look at, okay, who runs campaigns at that company, and I'll then stalk them on Linkedin, Twitter, Instagram, and slide into their DM's, and work out a way to meet with them because I'm genuinely interested in their craft. And it's not a Sales pitch because I am genuinely interested, and they can see that and they get it. And that's how I open up. That's how I like to fill funnel right now. That's not to say I don't work with a recruiter. I have a recruiting of here at G2 that's constantly hiring roles for me. But most of my director and above level roles, I rarely, rarely hire...not because I choose to, but I find that most people that I will hire at director or VP level will be folks that I have found myself. Because I think that if you're a passive candidate...and I get emails all the time from recruiters and I'm passive in that I'm looking for a new job, but I rarely respond to them. But if a CMO or CEO at another company that I was really interested in, reached out and said, "Hey, love what you've been doing at G2, and how you completely changed the brand, and how you've grown traffic, and I listened to on a podcast - would love to catch up." That's something that I'm like, yeah, YOLO. I want to meet other smart folks, and I like to hear that the things that I'm doing are getting noticed, selfishly. And so that sort of thing - that works. And so that's how I think about recruiting. I'm pretty process oriented. When I'm going off after a candidate - a passive candidate - I'm a little less process driven because it's very much that I am just looking for great people out there. When I'm in Director-level or below interview, when someone's in our active recruiting cycle, and whether or not we've found them or they found us, I use a bit of a case-based method for how I interview. So I basically start off the interview, where I want to learn a bit more about them. But then I asked them a pretty simple question of, "What were you brought into your company to impact?" And so this has helped me really quickly understand, if they give me a really long answer or they can't answer that, it just shows me that they don't really know why, what their role is at the company. So I'll ask them that to understand. So if someone asked me that at G2, I'd say "Well, I was brought into G2 to drive more Sales revenue, increase our brand, and drive more traffic. And then I'll follow it with a specific task. So I asked them, "Can you please describe the task, or the challenge, or the project, or the problem that you were brought in to solve?" So they might say, "Well, I was brought in to to increase our MQL to SQL conversion", right? Or Blah, blah, blah. And then I will ask them, okay - after whatever they say - then I'ill ask them, "How did you measure your success on that thing?" And then they might say, and this is the worst response ever, they might say, "I wish I could measure it, but my company doesn't really care to measure those things." And then I would dig in further, "Oh, okay, that's okay. Let's say your company did measure those things, how would you want them to be measured?" And that way, I can work out is their brain thinking about measurement in the right way? And then after I understand the measurability component, I then go into action. So, "What projects or tasks did you specifically work on to reach success?" And what that helps me understand is - did they actually do the job? Because companies have lots of successes. We as a Marketing team have done a ton of success, and we talk about it as a team. So it would be easy for someone to take ownership, or pretend that they drove the success of the team, or something else. So this "actions" thing is important to me because it helps me understand, from start to finish, what was their involvement? Did they partner with someone? Where did the idea come from? Did they hit roadblocks? That's really key. And then I'll ask them, "What results we're actually achieved?" And then I'll go into timeframes, "So, how long did it take to get here?" and scale around what would they maybe do differently, or would they do it again or not? And so, that's just really quickly, at a high level, the case flow that I like to go through when I'm interviewing a candidate that has a core set of skills that I'm trying to get deep into and understand how they think. Separate to that though, I think, for me, I really care about people that are data-driven, growth focused - so they have experience in growing things. And the data stuff, the growth stuff, that will come through in this case method that I use. I want people that are lifelong learners, that are obsessed with...if you do want to work on my team and you aren't on social media, and you aren't obsessed with how ads work, and how tracking works, and how digital works - this isn't the right team for you. So I can tell from a lot of their online presences already, whether or not they're probably going to be right for me. And yeah, that's high level how I think about the actual nitty gritty process of it. And then when it comes to retention and growing employees, I have a pretty direct approach where I connect with most people on the team every other month. I connect with, obviously, all my direct reports every week. But I try and encourage them to really understand that transparency is the most important thing to me. And I try and mirror that to them. And by being really transparent with them and sharing with them, what I am working on, what I'm finding challenging, why I can't do what someone has asked me to do, and giving them the logic. And I think today with employees, that they crave to understand "why?" you as a leader make the decisions you make. And, I think, for a long time, leadership decision were made behind closed doors, and people were just told what to do. And I think Gen-Y's, and most employees now in today's workforce, want to be involved, and want to be able to share their opinion, and I'm really encouraging of that. But I also explain that this isn't a democracy. And I want everyone to share their opinion, so that I can make the best decision. And I might make a decision that is different to what you want, but that doesn't mean that I won't listen to you and respect your opinion. But I have to make a decision at the end of the day, and I might have a broader perspective than you because I'm getting all of your input, and then I have all the inputs from my job, and being on a leadership team, that you might not have. So yeah, that's really quickly, I guess how I think about, recruiting, interviewing, and then developing and retaining employees. Naber:  That was great. You did my job for me - all the way down to the method, and the process you use, some of the questions you ask, the examples you gave. I really what you said around the vulnerability and transparency of communication...openness of the communication within your team. You write about that and some of the things you read about making sure people can share. Ryan Bonnici:    I really think...I can always keep doing a better job, this is something that I need to work on - partly, it's something that I have needed to really focus on consciously, because it's so different than my style a few years ago. And I think that's partly through a lot of therapy, and a lot of my own work, I realized that some of those defenses that I used to have as a child that were helpful then, weren't helpful as an adult, as a leader in business. And so I've had to develop there further. But I think that...this is a bit of a, not a sad story, but I had a colleague yesterday who I love that they're on my team, they're amazing, who we were meeting for a one on one, and they texted me and they said...let's see if I have the message (*searches phone with Ryan Bonnici style, focus, grace, and precision)...it was basically, long story short, "Hey Ryan, I'm really sorry. I'm not going to be able to make our one on one right now. I think I'm having a panic attack, and I might head home." And naturally I was, "Please, do what you need to do for it, and take care of yourself." And I don't think an employee would have sent that to me previously. They might've said, "I'm out sick" or something. But I have said to my own employees in the past, over slack, when I was having an anxiety attack at some point, I just canceled all my meetings that day and took a mental health day, pretty publicly. And I was like, "I'm out today guys, I'm taking a mental health day." And I was in the office, and I had to go home because I just wasn't feeling it. And the amount of people that texted me after for that to say that they appreciated me being so public with that helped them feel they could bring their whole selves to work. And if they are feeling similarly, they don't need to lie about how they feel. They can just be open. And not to say that they have to, but I think again, it's all about sort of living it yourself, and showing others that they can do the same thing. Naber:  Totally. Setting the standard, demonstrating the standard, so you can hold the standard. I talked to someone about that, about culture the other day and I believe it's the exact same thing with mental health in the workplace and openness of communication. That's a really good example. Thanks for sharing that. And you keep that openness, from a retention perspective, I think the openness that you keep with the way that you talk to your employees and the way that you talk to your teams - it sounds from the way that you're writing and the example here, I read an article that you'd written the other day, sorry I read the other day that you'd written, talking about encouraging your best employees to consider outside job offers, and having that very open dialogue and open discussion. Can you talk a little bit about that mindset and what that means to you? Ryan Bonnici:    Yeah, sure. So I think part of it is that too many leaders and people in business tip toe around the idea that people are going to work for a company forever, right? And I think the reality is that the average lifespan of a marketer at a company is, gosh, two years maybe. And so yeah, if you look at my track record, it's three years on average. Naber:  I read the other day, it was something like - those coming out of college right now are poised to have something like 13.2 employers throughout their life. Ryan Bonnici:    Yeah, that makes sense. And, I'm really open with people because if you look at my track record, I've done the same. And so what I really want to encourage people to do, is if reaches out to you for a job offer because they think you're a good fit for a role, you should respond. I mean assuming you want, you don't have to, but you should...and I do this, I would always respond to them. So recruiters hit me up all the time, and they be like, "Hey Ryan, I have a CMO role or CEO role at this super sexy high growth company, blah, blah, blah." My first message back, I have no niceties, I'm like, "Thanks for your message. What is the company?" Because that's all I care about, right? Who is the company that we're talking about? Because there's heaps of roles out there, but I don't want to work for just anyone or for everyone. And so once they tell me that the company is, then if it's an interesting company, I might chat to them or their leadership team to learn a bit more. And I think why that's important is because it helps me solidify to myself if I am in the right role myself. By chatting someone else and seeing what other roles are available and by asking questions I can work out, "Oh gosh no, in my role today, I'm so much happier." But it also helps me have a baseline understanding of - what roles are out there? What are the typical skillsets that are needed,? How much are people paying for my skillset? Which helps give me visibility into, do I need to be asking for more money at my current company, or am I paid fairly. And so I think if you treat your employees really, really well, and be open and honest with them in that, they're not probably gonna work for you forever, and that you want the best for them in their career, because you understand that they'll then be an advocate for you and your company afterwards, then they're a little bit more open about these things. And so, and yeah, I just do that with my team, and I practice what I preach. And so it means that that encourages folks to feel open about that they can come to us and say, "Hey, I have this job offer from this company. I don't necessarily want to leave, but they're offering double what you guys are offering me." And if this is an employee that's amazing that we couldn't do without, then we'll try and do whatever we can to keep them. And that might mean more responsibilities, if they've shown that they deserve it. It might mean more pay. It depends on why the person's making the decision, right? And that's case by case, but I think you can get a better understanding of that, and help them see as well, by asking them questions about the role and the company...I often times find that I will uncover things that they don't know, or haven't realized. Like, they haven't asked how much budget they might, or who their boss is going to be, or if they were told that they could run a team - but is it going to be in writing that they will get to run the team? And just these things that they haven't asked. And they start to then realize, holy shit, I have so much more potential and bandwidth here on Ryan's team. Yes, the grass might seem greener on the other side because they're offering more money, but there's a reason why they're offering more money. It's because they can't get good talent. So, I don't know, and by doing that they may realize that, yes, they should leave, or not. And so, I think I preface always these conversations with my team with a bit of an asterisk, in the sense of that you might go through that process and come to us and say that there is this offer that you're going to take, and we might say to you, if we don't feel you are contributing well on the team or you're not someone that we want to change the situation for, you should take the role. Naber:  Take it. Ryan Bonnici:    Yeah. No, exactly. Naber:  That's the best case scenario for everybody too, it's great. Ryan Bonnici:    Yeah, exactly right. Yeah. You should take that role because we think that you are paid fairly, and as per your last performance review, we've made it pretty clear to you in terms of what you would need to do to get to the next level, and you haven't done that yet. So, we're happy for you to stay here and keep developing you, but if it's money that you want, you're not going to get that here until you put in the work that we've shown you. And I think just from having that dialogue, they can better understand how much more quality coaching and development they are going to get with you than another company. And they can then make their own decision. So that's how I try and think about it. Naber:  Awesome. Thanks. Thanks so much for the multiple, multiple layers you went into with that. And you've been, you've been at so many businesses where you've had just amazing people at those businesses, built awesome cultures. I think one of the things that people want to hear about is, how you think about talent. We just talked about that. And then also, a couple things around the science of what you've done. So building Inbound Marketing Engines, you've been at the Mecca of Inbound at HubSpot. And I couldn't even count on two hands how many amazing people I know at HubSpot, and how many reasons I love the culture there, as well as love the products. And so even people outside the business feel that way. But, tell us what you learned at HubSpot about building Inbound Marketing Engines that translates to G2 and how you've built that engine right now, as well as every subsequent Marketing engine you're going to build. What translates that everyone should be doing as they're building their Inbound engine. Ryan Bonnici:    Gosh, okay. So, I mean, as you mentioned, working for HubSpot has taught me everything that I know about Inbound. And that was actually, when I mentioned before why I was so grateful for work there, was I just was able to work with the smartest Marketing minds, and I just fucking love that team, and miss them so much. They're a big customer at G2 actually, and I got the chance to head back to Boston last month because we recorded this amazing customer success video with their CEO, Brian Halligan and Kip Bodnar, their CMO. And they were talking about all the value that they get from G2, and why they couldn't connect with their customers if it wasn't for G2. And so it was so fun to get to go back there and profile this company that I was so proud to have worked at, and that was a big customer of ours. It was really quite nice. Look, what I think what I learned there is that...HubSpot literally wrote the book on Inbound Marketing. And so, I think what I learned about was just how to take a really data driven approach to drive, to creating content that drives results. And I think, blogging and writing, Content Marketing is something that can be done really...most people do it horribly wrong. Because everyone can write, so everyone thinks they can be a blogger or a content marketer. And anyone can actually write good content, if they have the right training or if they use the right assistance tools. The problem where I think most people go wrong with content Marketing is once you've decided what you're writing about, if it's not the right topic, you can't optimize it for something whereby no one searches for that topic. So, optimization, SEO optimization when it comes to content Marketing, happens before topics are even selected, before pen touches the paper. And that's why my VP, Content & SEO is an SEO by trade. He ran SEO at Atlassian, and now leads SEO and Content for us G2. And the reason being is, you need to look at...you to just start with keyword research and work out, okay, where are people searching? And which searches indicate that this person is our persona that we are trying to attract to our website, blog, etc? And then you need to work out, okay, how high quality are the keywords in relation to the persona - like, is 50% of the traffic that we're going to get for this keyword with a million searches going to be our buyer persona, and if so, that means 500,000 of the 1 million is going to be out traffic. Or, alternatively, there could be a 700,000 terms per monthly searches that has a 90% percent alignment to your buyer persona, which is going to be higher than that 500,000. But if you just chose the biggest number, you might not get as much of the right people. And so we take a super data driven approach. And we, we literally published, just yesterday, I had the team publish a playbook. And it's a five part playbook - on learn.g2.com (https://learn.g2.com/hub/1-million/how-we-grew), which is our learning hub - which was literally the entire play by play that we created to create a blog at G2 just last year, around seven months ago, that went from zero visitors to over a million monthly visitors within seven months or something like that. Insane growth, right? This blog now makes up...this blog is driving millions and millions of visitors, and it hasn't existed - per month, I should add - and it hasn't existed for more than a year now. You know, HubSpot's blog drives about 6 million monthly visitors, but HubSpot been working on that bad boy for about 10 years. Naber:  Wow. That's a great proportional perspective for how fast your blog has grown. Ryan Bonnici:    Yeah. We are on track to hit 4 million monthly by the end of this year - that's goal that I set the team for the blog alone. Our total website, we'll be at about 10 million monthly by the end of this year. And when I joined G2 our traffic was around, it was less than a million a month. So, in two years to go from less than a million monthly visitors to 10 million, which is where we're on track for, that's fucking insanity. Naber:  That's literally 10x. That's insane. Ryan Bonnici:    And that's not just my work, it's not just the Marketing team's work. We have a great product team that we work with, we have lots of contributing content writers that create content...But majority that traffic's all organic as well, I should have said. We don't do any paid content. And so, yeah, that's one thing that I'm really frickin' proud about. Because, I mentioned earlier, relationships and results. Relationships are super important, but results are as well. I think, you said I was able to fast track my career. And, I was, I got the Cmo role at G2 when I was 29, and I couldn't have done that if it wasn't for really overindexing on results. And what I mean there, is if you tell me to hit a million monthly visitors, I'll hit four (million). And it's not because I'm trying to show off or anything, it's basically because I derive a lot of self worth through my work achievement. And, over time I'm getting better at disconnecting and finding self worth from who I am as a person, regardless of job, but that's still something that's really important to me. And so, I'm thankful for that part...that lonely boy role that I played when I was younger because it helped get me here, and I don't think I would change it looking back. Naber:  Wow, that's an excellent answer. I love it. I hope everyone...I don't think people could write down notes fast enough as they're listening to that. So can we dive in one more layer on that? So two things. One, what are the phases you go through as you're thinking about building a strategy - for one year, two years? If I'm listening to this as a Head of Marketing or Head of Sales & Marketing, and I'm thinking about - what are the phases I'm going to go through? You've directed this movie multiple, multiple times. So what are the phases you go through as you're building a strategy. And then two, what does your scorecard look like do that you know how to measure it? Ryan Bonnici:    So, I guess, it can be a bit different depending on if you've been doing content Marketing for awhile, or if you're just starting out, it's slightly different. If you've been doing it for awhile - and I wrote a big blog post Entrepreneur magazine called The One Marketing Metric That You're Not Measuring, which outlines this process in more detail. If anyone Google's The One Marketing Metric That You're Not Measuring and my name, they'll find it. But basically, if you've already been creating content for a while, step one would be explore all your Google analytics data, map it and connected to your CRM data, and worked out which blog posts are driving the most organic traffic, and what's the conversion rate of that traffic into leads, and leads into MQL's, and MQL's into revenue. And then you can start to connect, what content topics that I'm writing about? If I think of HubSpot, one content topic they might write about is Marketing automation, and another content topic they might write about is social media, another contents topic they might write about is Marketing budgets - because, all of those things are things that a Marketer would be searching for, and they sell to a Marketer. And so, you would then group all of your content in pages around those topics, and see, okay, in the aggregate how much traffic has the social media content driven to our blog organically, how much of those organic visitors to social media content have been converted into leads, etc. And you can start to work out what content topics are driving the most revenue at the bottom of the funnel. Yeah. Does that kind of make sense? Connecting the two? Naber:  Yep. Ryan Bonnici:    And then, so that would be what I would recommend you do if you've already got a lot of content, you are driving organic traffic, and you want to get a bit of an understanding of what is and isn't working. If you're just starting out fresh - and then once you've done that, you then can still do what I'm going to suggest now - but if you are starting out fresh, then what I would suggest is just, you know, your buyer persona better than anyone. Think about, sit down, and think about what does this person do in their day to day life. And I if use the HubSpot example again, the Marketing persona that we were trying to attract, I don't just think of about their job in the context of my software. So what I mean by that is, yes, HubSpot's platform does email Marketing and social media. So those were two of the topics that I touched on before. HubSpot product does nothing around budgeting, but we still created content around that topic because that was something that a Marketer needs help with. They create budgets - they go to Google, and they search for budget templates. So it's not just about creating contents that are close to your product, it's about creating content around topics that your buyer persona would be searching for regardless of whether or not they are looking for your product at that moment in time. Okay? And that's a really important piece because if you just create content topics around the things that are in relation to your product or service, they're way more competitive typically than other topics because that's, that's the simple "dumb" Marketer to thing to do. Sorry, that's a bit mean. I shouldn't say the "dumb" Marketer thing to do. That's just the thing that everyone does naturally. You don't have to be very creative to think about doing that. And so, and I'm not saying that you shouldn't do that, but you should be thinking broader as well. I feel bad now the saying "dumb" Marketer. Naber:  Ha, I think people will forgive you based on all the valued you're delivering, so don't worry about it. Ryan Bonnici:    And so, once you start to look into those different topics, that's when you start to do keyword research and using tools like SEMrush or Ahrefs. But, ideally come to G2, and search for the best SEO software, and we'll give you personalized recommendations. And then you can start to look at some content tools that are out there, and group these different topics to see what kind of volume of people are searching for the topics? How difficult is it to rank for these topics? So most of the different platforms will give a difficulty score of one to a hundred. A hundred - meaning it's impossible, you are never going to rank for this unless you are facebook.com. To one - any person that launches a new website can rank for it. And so you want to choose a mixture of difficult terms because they typically have higher volume, and a mixture of some easier terms because they typically have a lower volume. And the easier terms are good because they start to drive immediate traffic to your site because you can rank for them quickly. But also, once you start driving organic traffic, then you start to create the flywheel effect whereby, okay, all these new people that are reading your content are going to enter your subscription process. And then they'll be return visitors for email Marketing. As well as, they're probably creating, if they're marketers and that's who you're attracting, they probably have their own blogs. If they really liked what you wrote about, they might link to you. And then if they link to you, that helps you increase your domain authority, which then helps you rank for more difficult terms. So you want to be doing both. And I think that's a mistake that we made early on at G2, where...and it was my fault, I joined from HubSpot, and we had a domain authority of 92 out of a hundred at HubSpot. And so when I joined G2, I think we had a domain authority only around 80. So some of the terms that I wanted the team to go after very early on were just too difficult. And so we didn't drive any traffic to them until six months later. And the team was smart enough to say, "Hey, while we've created some of these really difficult, high volume content, we need to do some easier content that's going to be a quicker win in the meantime to get the flywheel going, to get Google noticing our site. I know I explained that really quickly to a certain extent, but I know we have limited time. And there's...I could talk about this literally for 24 hours. There's so many details to this, and it seriously...if anyone wants this step for step, they should just go to learn.g2.com (https://learn.g2.com/hub/1-million/how-we-grew) because we published the playbook for this yesterday. Naber:  Awesome. Do you remember, for the audience, do you remember what the title was? Ryan Bonnici:    I think the title of it is literally, how we grew our organic traffic to 1 million monthly visitors. (https://learn.g2.com/hub/1-million/how-we-grew) Naber:  Okay, sweet. Very original title - that's good. Ryan Bonnici:    Haha, yeah, very original. Naber:  For everyone listening, I'll put the link to in the description of this, of this episode. (https://learn.g2.com/hub/1-million/how-we-grew) Hey, last thing I want to talk about because I know we do have limited time, is one more superpower that I think is really clear to everyone - that both follows you on social, understands how your career trajectory has gone, as well as the businesses that you've helped build - is around brand building. You just went to Cannes Lions, and you wrote a Linkedin article about it being a big chance for B2B marketers to learn from top B2C Marketing strategies. And you talked about B2B brand building a little bit in that. You also have on social media, your following...you mentioned it a little bit earlier, but I couldn't believe the numbers that it was looking at. I mean, I could, but I couldn't at the same time. And you have 21,000 fans on Facebook, 56,000 followers on Instagram, 20,000 followers on Twitter, 32,000 followers on LinkedIn. Every single one of those platforms is extremely challenging to get even close to a fraction of that, let alone have that consistency. So could you talk a little bit about, building brand from a,B2B perspective, and then also from a social perspective where you can marry those two things together, however you think about it. But I think a lot of people are going to struggle with building their B2B brand because you mentioned, B2B is so far behind B2C and being able to do that. Ryan Bonnici:    Yeah. Yeah. So, I think B2B Marketers are traditionally the worst at building brands. And it's because, B2B typically, when you're selling to businesses, you're typically selling a higher value product. It's very logical, rational. You're solving a very specific problem. Which means that because it's so Sales driven, and because Sales focuses time on those pain points with prospects, Marketing just seems to always be quite clinical and boring and corporate. So the reason why I went to Cannes was because, I think the B2C world do a much better job when it comes to...When it comes to CPG, consumer package goods, and fast moving products, it's far less logical and rational, and it's far more emotional, and gut, and instinctual. And so their content and campaigns are always very visceral. They're very much about making you feel a certain way. They're about surprising you, delighting you, making you laugh, making you cry. And I don't necessarily think that, B2B should go completely down that path. But I think as a CMO it would be silly of me not to, it would be dumb of me. Here we go, I'll pay myself out and make up for my last comment. It would be dumb of me not to go to that event, at least once, because there's stuff that I can learn from that industry. And I think that's actually, funnily now that we talk about it, a very good proof of what I said before, that I am obsessed with learning from other people in other industries, selfishly because I want to steal all of their great ideas and apply them to my world, and integrate them better than anyone else. And I think I genuinely do a pretty good job at understanding many aspects of Marketing, more than I think other CMO's that have just stayed in one lane. And it's because I just push myself out of my comfort zone. So, yeah, I don't think B2B CMO's do a very good job at that. And I don't think we have done a very good job at G2. And so, I want to upskill myself so that I can help upskill my team, etc. I think, if you look at software today, right? There is something like 60,000 pieces of B2B software out there. There's probably, there's something like 250, maybe a thousand different email Marketing platforms. And so in the B2B space, B2B used to be a differentiator...so B2B software - SaaS - used to be, I think a thing that could differentiate you in terms of winning or losing. If you're a company that got in on SaaS and software early, that gave you an unfair advantage. And I think today everyone uses software. Everyone uses 50 different pieces of just email Marketing software alone. The software is less the differentiator today, and it's how you use the software. And so, once you move into a parody market where you're selling products that are similar to everyone else's...and not all software categories are like this. CRM certainly is, email Marketing certainly is, Social Media is kind of like that. These categories where there's tons of different options, they're all kind of similar. People, when they're making the decision, they're going to lean more into some of the emotive components because if your products are all the same, who wouldn't want to work with the brand that's a bit more fun, and is a bit more enjoyable, they like more. And so that's kind of my thoughts B2B branding, and that's why we at G2 went through a rebrand earlier this year, where we dropped the Crowd from our name, so we're just G2 now. We completely redid our logo, our brand colors, but it was more than just a visual refresh. It was more actually that we as a company changed our mission, and our focus, and shifted because we understood our buyers a little bit more. So that's what I would say on the B2B branding side of the house. On the personal brand and building your own brand on social, I talked about this at Drift's conference last year. I keynoted there and spoke about how to build your career and your brand. And I think sometimes people feel embarrassed to toot their own horn, and it doesn't need to be that. But I think the way I've always viewed it is that, the bigger my clout as a person, as a marketer, basically the more interesting I am to people so that they follow me, that they want to interview me, they talk to me, they allow me to talk at events - the more valuable I am to an employer. Because I already have a platform to talk to people, right? So, if you think of me in my current role, right? When I go into my next role at my next company - which no idea when that will happen because I love G2 - I've published content for HBR, for the World Economic Forum, for...fuck, there's just so many publications now. I all of these connections there because they trust me, and they know that I'm not writing Salesy content. I am exposing my flaws, and talking about wins, and I'm giving their writers something of value. And so when I go to my next company, now immediately I have this rolodex of companies that I can write for, and all the buyers they're going to say Ryan as the CMO, GCO, etc. of this new company. And I'll naturally...I'm a Marketer, so I'll naturally pull in a very natural, lovely way, a mention of that company that's super authentic to what I'm writing about, obviously - and, yeah, it's a win-win. And so, I think my lesson for folks listening that are yeah, okay, well it's easy to get press when you're a CMO and write for these companies - when I wasn't a CMO, I still was doing it. You just have to start smaller. And so the step by step process that I told people to do is - you probably already worked for a company, so tap on your content Marketing teams door and say, hey guys, hey gals, I would love to create some content for our company blog. And no content Marketers are going to say no to that because they have really big traffic goals, and they want more content. And say to them, hey, what topics do you guys need content around, and let's see if I can find a crossover of where I have a skill set and where you need content. And then work with them, publish some content, publish more content, that helps get you on the map. And then you then might get noticed by someone, and someone might ask you to write for them. But now at least you can at least proactively reach out to tier three publications, and say, "Hey, I write for insert company publication here', and here are a few links to some of my work. I just recently put wrote this piece of content about topic x, which I think would be a really good fit for your audience. I've pasted it in the email below, let me know what you think. And if you publish it" And that just kind of gets you up and running, you know? And so if that person doesn't reply, try another tier three publication. And that's genuinely how I did it. And then I went from tier three to tier two. And then when I started creating content for tier one, I referenced my tier two work, and you just slowly work your way up. And then after a while, you don't need to reference it anymore because people would just Google your name and they'll see all of the content, and that's the proof, kind of thing. So, yeah. Naber:  Excellent. You've been doing this for so long - personally and professionally. Ryan Bonnici:    Oh - The only thing I would add as well, Brandon, is that I think for...the biggest asterisk on all this before, and it's kind of like what I mentioned with content Marketing, if you don't have the right keyword and topic idea from the get go, you will fail. With building your personal brand and writing content. If you aren't authentic, and if you don't have something unique to say - that's key - no one's going to publish your bullshit. If I wrote a blog...that blog post that I wrote for Harvard Business Review about why I tell my best employees to seek other job offers - if I wrote why I love to run one on one meetings...like year, no shit, Sherlock. Of course we all know that that's important. Like, "Oh Ryan has a different view on career progression and letting people leave." That is interesting. So, that's where you need to be a marketer, and you need to think about storytelling. You need to think about your unique skill set, and how you can tell a story that people will want to read. Because I think if you don't have that from from the beginning, that no one will ever reply to you and this won't work for you. Naber:  Love it. Unique and authentic. I've heard that over and over from a few different businesses that are great at it, people that are great at it...You've just been doing it for so long, that's extremely valuable, and thank you for the examples and all the detail. You're running short on time right now. I want to get one rapid fire question, and then we'll wrap. Is that okay? Ryan Bonnici:    Sounds great. Naber:  Okay, cool. So this is a question, and I explained this to guests each time, this question I usually ask people on their birthdays. Your birthday's not until October, October 3rd, I believe, and we both have October birthday, so I got excited when I saw that. It's not creepy, maybe it is that I know that. But anyways, the question I was asking is, what's the most valuable lesson you've learned in the last 12 months personally? Ryan Bonnici:    The most valuable lesson I think that I've learned in the last 12 months... Naber:  Personally, we'll get to professional in a second. Ryan Bonnici:    Yeah, I was just going to go there anyways. It was probably could be more...to be kinder to myself. I think has probably been the biggest lesson that I've learned in the last 12 months. Because I think, this job and this challenge, which was bigger than I had ever taken on, definitely pushed me to my limits last year. And I think, and I'm in a really good place now. But I got pushed into...and I'm saying "got pushed" is maybe just a defeatist way of saying that I let myself get too stressed out, or whatnot. As tough as I am on others around me, I'm 10 times as tough on myself. So that little Freudian slip of "dumb marketers" means that secretly, I think that I am a dumb Marketer. And that's, like fact. Like, deep down I'm insecure that I am that persona. But, I think, I've definitely learned over the last 12 months, through a shit-ton of therapy, to just be kinder to myself. Because everyone is fighting their own battles, whether you can see it or not, and most often times the folks that piss you off the most or that activate something in you, have something deep going on inside of them, but that what you're seeing is just their defense mechanism to help them avoid dealing with whatever it is that they were trying to avoid. And I've been there. And so, I don't succeed at being kind to myself and others everyday. But I think it's something that I'm actively working on. Naber:  Awesome. Be kinder to yourself. I actually need to steal one more thing because I feel the extra two minutes is going to be worthy of the way that you feel after it, because you've given a lot of really good career advice. What's your best career...I think you're going to expand on it a little bit earlier. But what's some of your best career advice that you have for young professionals as they're navigating their career? Ryan Bonnici:    Well, I think my best career advice that people today, young and old, would be that, we're really lucky today because of social media, it's so easy to find interesting people. And so I touched on before, in terms of what I do when it comes to recruiting, when you see a really cool ad, or if you think about the brands that you love, or the companies that you'd want to work for, going to Linkedin, to Twitter, to Instagram, and follow all of the leaders at those companies that are doing the awesome work. They're sharing content on how they think, how they feel on all of those channels. And so you can learn so much more about them that way. And who knows, maybe you can reach out to them because you study them so well, and you have a really poignant question to ask them that they think was an impressive question. And then they'll take time to have coffee with you. And then you get a job offer...I really think that the best way we learn and can grow in our careers is by looking out there and finding who are the best people doing the best work. Let's learn from them, and let's copy them, and let's recreate what they're doing in a better way. And so that's probably my best career advice. And I think next to that is just, don't forget about the relationships in career. And I think, I would say that that was something that I needed to realize a few years back. I think most people though over-index on relationships, and don't over-index on results. I was the other way around, which wasn't great either. But I think you need to crush your results, right? If your boss tells you to jump here, you jumped double there, or you jump to where they are asked, and show them something else that you jumped to where they didn't know they needed to jump. But you also need to do relationships, I think, at the same time. I think you can burn bridges if you don't do that. Naber:  Awesome. Ryan, you the man. Thank you so much for being on the show. I really appreciate your time, brother. Naber:  Thanks for having me. Brandon was nice to chat. Naber:  Hey everybody, thanks so much for listening. If you appreciate it and enjoyed the episode, go ahead and make a comment on the post for the episode on LinkedIn. If you love the Naberhood Podcast, we'd love for you to subscribe, rat

Guest: Oliver Jay - Head of Global Sales & Partnerships @Asana (Board Director @Grab; Formerly @Dropbox, @NEA, @HBS) Guest Background: Oliver Jay is the Head of Global Sales & Partnerships at Asana. Prior to Asana, he scaled the Dropbox sales team from 20 to 100 people across multiple geographies. Previously, Oliver worked at Morgan Stanley and New Enterprise Associates (NEA) where he invested and worked alongside entrepreneurs in consumer internet, cleantech and enterprise SaaS companies. Oliver earned his B.A. from the University of Pennsylvania and his MBA from Harvard Business School.  Guest Links: Website | LinkedIn | Twitter Episode Summary: In this episode, we cover: - Top Talent: 4 Hiring Criteria & Step x Step Recruiting Process - The International Expansion Playbook - Upstream: Product-Market Fit to Freemium to Enterprise - Building Sales Engines - Self Serve, Online Sales, Enterprise, Partnerships & Channel - 3 Criteria for Picking Horses (the Right Hypergrowth Companies) - The Role of Unit Economics for Sales & Marketing Leaders Full Interview Transcript: Naber:  Hello friends around the world. My name is Brandon Naber. Welcome to The Naberhood, where we have switched on, fun discussions with some of the most brilliant, successful, experienced, talented and highly skilled Sales and Marketing minds on the planet, from the world's fastest-growing companies. Enjoy! Naber:  Hey everybody. Today we have Oliver Jay on the show. OJ is they call him. OJ is the Head of Global Sales at Asana, a $1.5 billion valuation company, a Unicorn with $213 million capital raised. Prior to joining Asana, he scaled the Dropbox Sales team from 20 to 100 people across multiple geographies. Dropbox IPO in 2018 $9.6 billion valuation. Previously Oliver worked at Morgan Stanley and New Enterprise Associates, NEA. We invested and worked alongside entrepreneurs in consumer internet, clean tech and enterprise SaaS companies. OJ is also on the Board of Directors for Grab, who has a $14 billion valuation and $9.1 billion capital raised. OJ earned his BA from the University of Pennsylvania and his MBA from Harvard Business School. Here we go. Naber:  Oliver Jay, awesome to have you on the show. Thank you so much for joining us. Oliver Jay (OJ):  I'm so glad to be here, Brandon. Naber:  Excellent. Thank you. It's July 4th. I'm sure you don't have anything better to do, so I'm really glad that you're spending it with me this morning. and I really appreciate your time. So we've got a lot to talk about. We're lucky enough to know each other personally and professionally, so I get to talk about some of my favorite things and hear about your story personally, and we'll hop into professional as well, hop through some of your career journey and ultimately, spend the bulk of our time in your professional journey, talking about a lot of the strengths, experiences, and ultimately superpowers that you've built up over time, that you've been able to study about, but also execute on that at several different, really, really high growth businesses. So let's start with on the personal side, little bit about you growing up, a little bit about what you were like as a kid. I mean, Hong Kong, Concord, New Hampshire, Philadelphia, New York, Boston, San Francisco, Sydney, San Francisco 2.0, been all over the planet. And I'd love to walk through you as a kiddo and talk about some of your interests, some of the things you're interested in, and then your journey through school. And then we can get into some professional stuff. Maybe in five to seven minutes, et's talk through what was OJ as a kid? Oliver Jay (OJ):  Awesome. Yeah. Well, so I grew up in Hong Kong. My parents are still there. And, I think even as a child I was always, I was the Lego kid, I was the builder. I was a total nerd throughout. And I excelled in math and science. Not a surprise. And it got to a point where my parents were , okay, math is only going to get you so much here. So they then sent me to boarding school in New Hampshire. Naber:  And that was St Paul's? Oliver Jay (OJ):  And that would be St Paul's. So I went there. That was my entry to the US was a ninth grade. Naber:  Nice. Excellent. So, what were some of the interests you had or the hobbies you had when you were a kid? Oliver Jay (OJ):  My main thing was tennis. Tennis was my major hobby growing up. And I think a lot of who I am came from just that sport, because that sport, just like any sport, requires you to be excellent. You just have to be, continue to grind away. A lot of, how I think actually came from that sport and competing, learning how to lose graciously, learning how to stay calm when there's, when it's things are looking rough. When you're down a set, what do you do? I'm thinking about how do you change your tactics in real time? That all comes from tennis. Naber:  Absolutely. Especially in an individual sport. We have to be so iterative. Where you do things a thousand times in practice, and it just becomes a transaction when you're in the actual match. That makes a lot of sense. So when you moved to St Paul's, and you were in Concord, New Hampshire, out of your comfort zone, tell us about that transition. And then let's talk about some of the things that you were interested in when you were in New Hampshire and high school. Oliver Jay (OJ):  Boy, so the interesting thing was Saint Paul's is one of the top high schools in the US, and that's pretty much all my parents knew. And my parents said, you're very strong in math and science, but your English sucks, and it's just really bad. And they're like, you need to supercharge that. And so they looked at the list, I think it was a US News and World Report list. And they had a couple rankings and some names that people have heard of, Exeter, St Paul's, whatever. And then so I applied and got in. And I mean St Paul's is a real school, in that it's academics is intense. And it's in the middle of nowhere. I mean, you're literally in the woods. I grew up in Hong Kong, I grew up in the heart of the jungle, a concrete jungle, and then I'm literally moved into a jungle. The school had, I think 200 acres. And I mean, it was nuts. But I learned to adapt. I learned about the American way. Yeah, it was tough, but it was certainly, also the best four years of my academic career. Naber:  Nice. Very cool. And did you play tennis when you were there? Or what were some of the activities that you were doing? Oliver Jay (OJ):  Yeah, yeah. I was on the tennis team, I was captain of the tennis team there. We were decent, we were decent. I did that, and then I was just lots of part of lots of clubs. But honestly, high school was tough for me. I didn't have that much spare time. Obviously, it should be clear, I have tiger parents, right? Obvious. So I did play a violin as well, but I was terrible at it. But I did the orchestra thing, but I was, I was so bad, so bad. But I survived, and I was okay. But I mean, I just, I worked so hard because my English level was far, far, far, behind my peers at school. Naber:  That must have been so challenging. Learning all that curriculum at such a high level, while you're learning how to master the English language yourself. That is immensely complex. Oliver Jay (OJ):  It was crazy. It was crazy. But, it changed my life. Because when I went to college, I studied philosophy, politics and economics. I went to Penn, right? So I didn't go to Wharton and just do a bunch of math and talking about strategy. I mean it's funny, I'm in business now. It's so easy compared to a career, or studying old philosophy texts, and debating, and writing papers or why you disagree with Socrates. I mean that's...But if I didn't go to St Paul's, and then of gotten out of my comfort zone, I wouldn't have done that. Naber:  That's cool. That's actually a really good way of looking at it. The most challenging class I think I've ever had in Uni was my logic class, my philosophy class - deductive reasoning, and logic, and going through all those different frameworks, and squaring everyone from old philosophers, and folks that...it's just almost, it feels it's impossible with their life experiences to contend and debate with. But that's, that's really interesting. You moved to U Penn. Why did you decide to choose U Penn? Oliver Jay (OJ):  Actually it was specifically because I really liked this program. So PPE, philosophy, politics and economics, is the most popular major in Oxford, in the UK. And Penn was one of two schools that adopted this program. It sounds fancy. Sometimes when I tell people that, it sounds I tri-majored. It's not true. It's more than one, but, it's this integrated curriculum of three disciplines that I think are really, really tied together. So that's why I went to Penn, for that program specifically. Naber:  Got It. So I won't tell anyone you didn't tri-major, but it sounds really, really stimulating. So you were at U Penn, What were some of the things you're interested in at U Penn? Before we get into your first job. Oliver Jay (OJ):  Like I said, Saint Paul's really opened my eyes to the world of humanities, and that's why I really loved that. But my interest had always been in business. You grow up in Hong Kong, you're going to be in business or you're a doctor, right? Or maybe a lawyer. It's just what you do, and it's in my blood. And so even when I was in high school, I was reading Peter Lynch books on how to invest. And so I've always been interested in business, but I took a couple of business classes and I was like, especially the management ones, and I was like, this is ridiculous. I'm not gonna pay this tuition to learn how to work as a team. Not to dismiss it, but I'm like, I don't think I'm going to have a chance again to, to read about Immanuel Kant, and how he thinks about the world. So in college, what I did was I spent most of my time academically on humanities, and then extracurricular was where I got scratch my itch on business. And my biggest thing there is I started the Wharton China Business Society. And back then, it was 2000. China had just gotten into the World Trade Organization, this was before China is the China we know it as today. But you knew it was going to be big. And it's cool, that society is still running now. I'm still getting their emails. Well they keep asking me to for donations. Naber:  That's how you know you made it. All right, cool. So you're you go through UPenn, you tri-major, obviously we talked about that. And you're interested also in studying business. I know you've always been interested in studying companies. I don't know if that's at the cost of studying people, but I know you've always been interested in studying companies. Is that when that started? Or did you get more practical with investing at Morgan Stanley, at NEA, at Harvard, before you started studying companies a lot? Oliver Jay (OJ):  I think the turning point was Morgan Stanley. I mean it was probably that summer internship. I just find it really fascinating. So when I got to Morgan Stanley, and I picked Morgan Stanley because I always liked tech as well. So I've always been a geeky, nerdy guy. And so at Morgan Stanley, I joined the tech team. And I ended up joining team that covered hardware. So companies Cisco, Juniper, and all the companies that died, Nokia, Motorola, they don't exist anymore, Nortel. But I just found it so fascinating to think about how a lot of these companies basically sell commodity hardware. A Cisco router is not that much better than Juniper router, or vice versa back then, at that point. Naber:  That's like a nightmare for software, I mean you're selling on features and pricing. Oliver Jay (OJ):  Exactly, exactly. And, but you were able to see very, very different trajectories. A lot of these companies no longer exist. A lot of them are still strong today. And that's just because of a different strategy that companies took. And I had the opportunity to go really deep. So that's why I joined equity research as opposed to a lot of my colleagues that joined investment banking to work on IPO's and deals. Because, it's probably my humanities background in education that I had led me to want to dig in deep, as opposed to more of a transactional finance job. And that's why I ended up in equity research. And through that experience I've really got to learn how to dig into companies. Naber:  Yeah. Very cool. That's a great transition. So while you're at Morgan Stanley...What's the top thing you learned from Morgan Stanley? The top learning you had, before you moved into NEA. And then we'll hop into NEA after that. Oliver Jay (OJ):  Ooh, top thing from Morgan Stanley. I actually, I have two things in my mind. So can I give you two? Naber:  Give me 10 if you want to, I've got time. Naber:  Yeah. Yeah. So the first, is I think of all places, I was extremely fortunate. And I had two great Managers at Morgan Stanley. They were my first bosses. And they say your first Manager really impacts you and your career, more than any other, right? I was just so fortunate because normally you don't get that on Wall Street. Naber:  Yeah. Statistics aren't on your side. Oliver Jay (OJ):  And I got placed with Scott Coleman and John Marchetti, and they were up and comers. And they rose through the ranks, and so they know what it took to move up. And they just had a very empowering mentality from the beginning. So they just pushed me, and I always asked for more. But every time, they just really gave me great feedback, pushed me, I learned so much. And they empowered me so much that by the second year I was they put me on stage at the Morgan Stanley tech conference, interviewing tech CEOs. And I was like 2 years out of school. And I think that was a very formative experience because I got to benefit from that, and I know what that did for me, and my career, and my confidence. And we'll talk more later about building teams and managing teams, but I've taken a lot of that philosophy from them. I was so lucky. I mean, that would be the number one thing. I will give you that, that was my number one thing I got from Morgan Stanley. Naber:  Nice. That's great. I mean, you're going to talk us through NEA. I mean you've worked for incredible companies, and you're on team building. Let's talk about that. Hiring great teams. One of the things that I know is your superpower from hearing from other people, from talking to you personally, talking to you professionally. But the result speak for themselves. You've hired incredible individuals that I know, because I used to work with them, or I know people that used to work with them, are just the best at what they do. And you consistently do it time, over time, over time. What's I'd love to hear is one, what's that hiring philosophy that you took away from those guys, as well as any additional things you've applied today? And then we can talk a little bit about your actual process. Because clearly there's something you're doing in execution that is better than most, if not better than almost all. So what is your philosophy around hiring that you took away from those guys as well as how you think about it? And then we'll talk through the process like, candidate profiling strategy, how do you attract and recruit, how do you close? So we'll talk about those things as well. So, what's on your mind? Naber:  I love building teams. I mean, it starts there...let me start with why I care about it. And I think for me, that's literally why I think...That's where I find meaning in my life. Bringing in high potential talent and seeing it grow, and creating opportunities. And I've always thought of myself, on my deathbed if I'm seen as the Y-Combinator of talent, I'll be really, really happy. And so because of that, I think that it impacts what I look for, because I really look for people who I believe we can go on a journey together, and they can learn from me and I can learn from them, and we're going to achieve great things together. That's the high level mentality that I have. I really don't look at...no matter how senior or whether someone's a fresh-out-of-school graduate. I think I can learn something. If I can't learn something from you, then I don't think you're a good fit. But that's how I see it. And so it's interesting, at Asana, we recently distilled down what are our Sales attributes, the hiring profile, not profile, but what are the attributes or values, depending on how you define it, that we look for. And I was very, very involved you can imagine, because in many ways I think I codified the things that I really value. So there are four pieces that I really care about in every single person that I hired. No matter, again, fresh out of school or you're going to run EMEA. The first is someone who really "pursues excellence". What I mean by that is, I want to see evidence that someone knows what excellence means. Because in high growth companies, you're growing 100%, 200% early on, 300% in the super early days. Every knows...information is everywhere now. So you can imagine you've got great competition. And so, you gotta go for people who really, really...Well, if you're not excellent, you don't even have a chance. You don't even have a chance to survive. And so, if you're fresh out of school, and I'm digging into your profile, and I don't see one thing...And I don't care, it could be a violin. If you've gotten really good at violin, I'm like, oh yeah. And this is sometimes why I think some of my best hires have been teachers. Because, gosh, if you can teach, especially if people from Teach for America, if you can teach math to inner city kids who have no interest in math, okay, you've pursued excellence here. And I think in this world, you either get it or you don't. You've either seen excellence, and you know what that means, and what it takes to be great, or you just don't. And it's very binary, and you can tell very quickly. So someone who does that is something I value a lot. The second piece is, we're calling it, you "lead with empathy". And in Sales, of course, if you don't have empathy, you're not going to understand your customer's needs, and you're not going to relate to them. You're not going to build a good relationship with them. But I think a lot of this is also empathy just in terms of how you work together, right? Like in Sales...you never win because of Sales. This is a huge thing, where a lot of times I've talked to other founders and they're like, oh, okay, it's time to monetize, but I need to hire some Salespeople. Those Sales people are gonna fail, right? Because Sales is just a part of a bigger engine, because you've got to work together. And working together is fricking hard. It's really hard. So if you don't lead with empathy, you're not going to know how to work together cross-functionally. In Sales, what do Sales people say all the time, every single Sales person, every single Sales leader, I need more leads. Marketing's not developing more leads for me. I'm like, okay, great. Tell me more. How could they be developing more leads for you? And why? Most people can't answer that. If you can't answer that, just like with a customer, you're not going to be able to partner with Marketing to generate the leads that you actually want, right? It's not transactional. So anyways, so leading with empathy I think is something really important. And really behind that, what I'm looking for is self awareness, right? In a fast growing company, you don't have the time to coach every single person. You really don't. I've got some Managers right now who are managing 14 people because we're just growing that fast. And I couldn't hire Managers fast enough. That means that of the 14 people, honestly, they're not each individually getting the top quality mentorship that, say, I got from two guys at Morgan Stanley. But, if I hire people who are self-aware, they're going to teach themselves. They're going to look for ways to learn. And that combined with pursuing excellence, you're going to get good people. The third piece is what I call, someone on our team defined it as, "do the hard". And this is simple, this is like, you've got to grind. I mean, no one has achieved excellence without grinding away. And Sales is really tough. I mean, literally it is the definition of a grinder job. But also, do you take shortcuts? Sometimes the hard way now is actually the easy way long term. And that's what I look for. Are you willing to do, the hard work today so they easier for you later. And the last thing we call it "ascending together", which is your ability to work as on a team. It's like, thinking like an owner, right? That's something LinkedIn, I think it was one of Jeff's big things. It's one of my big things too. I remember when I was Morgan Stanley, that's what John Mack said when he was running the company. Now this is a big bank, Morgan Stanley. When he first said that, I was like, yeah, how am I going to change the trajectory of Morgan Stanley as a first year analyst. But, I did think that way, I really did, and I love that. So, those are some of the high level qualities that I look for in anybody. Naber:  Nice. That's awesome. One follow up on that, that was really well articulated, thanks. And the one follow-up on that...Do you have a particular process you go through? Let's talk about hiring directly on your team, your team, your directs. Do you have a particular process you go through around candidate profiling, attracting that candidate, and you reaching out to them either personally, or the message that you craft? Going through the recruitment, and interviewing process, and then closing. Do you have any tactics that you think completely set you apart from, maybe what other people do, just based on the results that you've gotten? You know that they work. Oliver Jay (OJ):  I don't know if it's differentiated, but I'll tell you how I approach it. I think the first step is you really have to understand the nuances of the role that you're trying to hire for. This is a mistake I see a lot in companies. Especially early stage companies, at some point they have like 10 Salespeople, they're hitting quota, kind of. And then the Board's like, you need a VP of Sales. And then they go and the hire some kind of recruiting firm, and they load them up with VP Sales candidates, and they just hire someone to do VP Sales. And that happens every day. And, I think there's so many nuances to the rule. What kind of Sales? How do you want to build it? And, what types of talent would you want this person to bring in? And, so I am a big believer that you don't know how to hire for that role unless you've done that job yourself, for at least a quarter or two. I think as you get better, you use pattern matching and shortcut. But in the beginning, you have to do it yourself...in the Sales world, so you know what type of companies are you really, really going after and such. And so that's my first step. Because even though I'm desperate for bandwidth, and I would just love to hire someone right now to just take the job, if I don't dig in myself, I don't think I'll hire her right, the best person for that job. So that's first, and I think that helps a lot downstream, and I'll come back to it. Second is, I leveraged my network. So I leverage my network, and I go talk to people. You and I have talked. I'm like, hey, I'm looking for this person. And now I know what I'm looking for, right? Who's the best two people you know? And I don't need to recruit them, but I want to talk to them. Naber:  You do this a lot. You do this a lot. To the point where sometimes I know you're in the market for someone because either I'm close with someone that might be one of the best in the market, and I'm hearing that you had a conversation because he or she and I will talk, and hear that, OJ had a conversation. You do this, it is perpetual, it is in your nature, perpetually to do this all the time. Oliver Jay (OJ):  And I think part of it is, I find it interesting, right? It's like, you get to learn. It's free education, why not? And so I constantly do that, that's true. And then I get referrals. I remember when I moved out to Australia to run, to start Dropbox APAC, and back then LinkedIn when you were there, LinkedIn was one of the top SaaS organization. Smaller than Salesforce, but the talent was super high quality, right? I canvas the top three layers. I talked to every single person across Sales, Marketing, Talent Solutions, everybody...and that's how I met great people Gareth. So, that's step two. Step three is then obviously building that list and talking to people. And I think this is one where, I don't know if it's different, but I do it myself. I do it myself. I reach out. I mean, I'm looking for a Head of BD right now. I'm the one who's InMail'ing people. I don't outsource it to a recruiter. And I think that makes a big difference. Because if you're a top talent, you want to hear from...you want your best shot at this person, right? So I do it myself. And when I get in touch with these people, and I think this is where having done the job yourself for at least a quarter to really, really make a difference, because then now you can talk about the role in a much more sophisticated way. You're not like, I'm just hiring someone to run east coast...Someone is interested it when you're able to map the distinct qualities needed for someone to be successful in a certain role, and why that candidate is a perfect fit. Naber:  There's something ultra sexy about that. There's something ultra sexy about that from a candidate perspective. Oliver Jay (OJ):  Because the candidate, people have choices. There's so many great companies out there. And what candidates want to know, ultimately no matter where and who, is that they're going to be set up for success. And so I think that comes across when you actually know what you're looking for, and then you can talk about why that person...Hey Brandon, I'm talking about you, and you specifically, because of XYZ, and that XYZ is exactly what I'm looking for. And that makes it a lot better. And then I also think a lot, again, you gotta develop that relationship, especially if you're hiring General Managers...If you treat it as just a process, that's where I've seen these things fail. I mean, I've seen bad hiring practices, even at Dropbox where I was, where you meet a lot of hiring mistakes. It was when you make these critical roles that you just rush through a process. I'm gonna go find an executive recruiter from, they're gonna bring me 20, and then I'm going to whittle it down to three, bring people back onsite, pick one. Those almost never work out because you don't have that trust developed, or you can't close. Because that trust has not been built up throughout the process. Oliver Jay (OJ):  Those are great. Those are great. All right. I feel people are going to be furiously writing down notes in audience, much slower than you can talk about this stuff. All right, let's move into NEA...So you're at Morgan Stanley, you make the jump to NEA. Why do you make that jump? What are you doing there? And then I've got a couple of questions for you. Naber:  Cool. NEA was the world's largest venture capital fund. And back then they were, they had never hired pre MBA analysts before, so I was a guinea pig of the first class. Essentially all of these partners just wanted people to do their work for them. And fast forward, now NEA I think has 20 analysts because it's like, wow, that's great to get people to do great work, do all that work for them. NEA - why did I join NEA? Well, first why did I join venture, go into venture capital. And when I was in equity research, I got into the business of studying companies, and giving buy, sell, neutral ratings on every stock, right? You go to CNBC, and there's someone talking about their stock, that was me. Well, that wasn't me, I didn't go on TV, but that's the work I did. Behind that analyst on TV, there's some baby, junior OJ who is crunching numbers. What I realized about my job that I liked was actually understanding the company, the strategy of companies, and the technology of companies. Back then, that was right when iPhone came out. And I made a bad call, by the way. I was like, Blackberry, RIM, remember Research in Motion? Blackberry is for consumers. Remember this company called Palm - PalmPilot remember? Palm is for prosumers. When the iPhone came out, I was like, this is for consumers. Don't worry. Buy more Blackberry. Buy, buy, buy. Obviously I was wrong. But anyways, I love that analyses. What I did not care about was the actual finance. I can do the job, but whether Cisco is going to trade to 35 or 33, I just didn't care. It was almost too easy. It was like, okay, I can look at a stock chart, after a month be like, okay, it's going to pop back up. Naber:  Humanities OJ comes out again. Oliver Jay (OJ):  I think so. It's just not for me. It wasn't fulfilling. if I made a really great call, and I helped a client make a ton of money, I just didn't find that rewarding. So, venture sounded interesting because it sounded it was like, okay, I'm still leveraging some of my analytical background, but I can dig deep into strategy and technology. So that's why I learned to venture. And there was a really a crazy adventure where I got to work with a great farm. Also, so fortunate work with some such great Managers, who empowered me and challenged me. And that's when I got closer to entrepreneurs, and founders. And my job there was due diligence for deals that came in. NEA got great deal flow because it was one of the best firms. So the pressure was more on diligence, and then working with companies, which is great. And then as I worked more with companies, and if we fast forward, that's why I ended up working as, becoming an operator. I was like, wow, that seems fun. It was funny because it gave me that kind of exposure. Naber:  Nice. I read a quote that you had mentioned, in a couple places, that you saw the fun the operators were having, and you wanted to hop on that side of the coin. And I think it's well said. So when you were there at NEA, I've got two particular things that over your career, you've been good at...But since we're on NEA, and you've had a ton of exposure to a lot of different types of companies and deals, it could have been one of the places where the seeds were planted for these two things. The first one is around picking horses, picking the right companies that are going to take off, and understanding the process you need to go through in your mind for one, picking that business, and two, evaluating as to whether or not you would want to hop on board. You've done an amazing job with evaluating them for the companies that you've joined, Dropbox and Asana as an operator, as well as a bunch of businesses you've helped, either been a Board Observer, or you've been a Board Director on a bunch of different types of companies. So when you're thinking about picking horses, what is the criteria you think about for joining a company? And like you said, people have options that are the best...that it being worthy of one, you looking at it, and two, you hopping on board? Oliver Jay (OJ):  Yeah, it's I absolutely learned that from venture. And as a result of that, I look at everything from a investor lens now. When it comes to picking horses, I think...two of the most legendary investors in the valley, Dick Kramlich was a founder of NEA, and Forest Baskett who is still a GP there and just incredibly smart. Basically, when Tableau was founded, he worked with the early founders in the NEA offices to start Tableau. And I asked them, hey, what's what's the secret? Because there are some venture investors that are just clearly better than others. What's the secret? Naber:  Yeah, top quartile year over year. Oliver Jay (OJ):  What's the secret? I mean, when I asked them, I was amazed...Dick was like, find companies that are going after really large markets. And you're like, okay, duh. Naber:  Let me just write that down. Oliver Jay (OJ):  But as I've matured, and I've looked into different companies, and how markets have matured, I can't tell you how many times I've told people on my teams who want to go to some company gave them some VP Sales job, and it sounds great, but the category is just not that big. And I think that's number one, you have to pick a company that has an exploding market, and most importantly is timing. Is the market about to explode now. Let's take a couple of examples. Let's look at Zoom and Slack, two examples recently. Zoom was one of the best IPO's of all time. I mean incredible IPO. Messaging, I mean, I remember the days in 95 when we were using ICQ. I don't know if you ever used ICQ. I still remember my ICQ number, right? We were messaging. Slack versus ICQ, or later MS Messenger, is honestly not that different. And then there was Skype in the middle. So, why is this so different? Do I really believe that the UI is so amazing that that's the reason. Like, okay, maybe, but I don't know if that's a $20 billion difference. It's just that somewhere, in the B2B world around 2014, the market tipped. There was a need in the market for more dynamic communications because the pain of email was just too high, for that use case. And CIO's started believing in it. And that's when it tipped. And that market, the enterprise messaging market, basically tipped in 2014 to 2016, I would say. In those two years the winner, it's a winner take all market...There's good research that shows that when a category tips, you get a flood of competitors, and then within two years, 18 to 24 months, the leader ends up taking I think 78%, something that, call it 80% market share of the market. But if the market is huge, you can go into a big market and you'll still be okay, right? Remember there's a company called Jive, right? And remember Yammer? Remember there was a Chatter? All the still did okay, but if you want the get the $20 billion market cap that Slack got, you have to be the winner during that window when the market is ready to tip. And I would say the same thing about video conferencing. Zoom...this is nothing new. I mean, that's how my wife and I developed a relationship, right, over video conferencing, over Instand Messenger - AOL, by the way, another messaging tool. And look, somewhere between 2015 to 2017, maybe even later, was when the need really, really tiped, and now you see Zoom taking off. And you and I now, we're doing this podcast via Zoom, and we use it all the time. Same thing with file storage. Dropbox, is generating $1.4 billion in recurring revenue for file sharing. Naber:  Fastest company to $1 billion for a SaaS business ever? Is that right?...ARR. Oliver Jay (OJ):  That's right. That's right. And they didn't invent file storage. I remember when I first used Yahoo in 1995, I got to upload a file into Yahoo, and then download it when I was in the library. It was life changing. Yeah, it was amazing. So it's not new. Cloud storage wasn't new. It's just that the market tipped at that point where people were starting to move away from servers. And in 2013 to 2014 was when mobile adoption in the enterprise had hit a certain rate, and that's when you needed cloud storage. Because on mobile, you can't access files anyway. So number one, you've got to pick a huge market, and most importantly, you've got to join that market right before the market tips. And so you have to make a call. I joined Asana when people were like, what is this project management thing? I don't know what it is. Forrester and Gartner haven't written reports on it yet. But I asked the most progressive CIOs, what's next? They're like, well, I just put in Slack, and now all my work is fragmented even in more places than before. I need something to pull it back together. So I'm going to look into this project management, work management space. And I'm like, oh, interesting. So I developed this hypothesis that the capstone of the new modern collaboration stack is going to be something like Asana that pulls things back together, at least for the things that I really did matter to that company. And I'm seeing that market...we are in the heart of the race right now, that 18 to 24 month window. So that's number one. Number two is obviously what people generally look for which is technology, right? If this market is going to tip, does this company have the right technology to win? And this is very much a venture thing, where you need to some make some calls on the architecture, how they built it. What are customers saying about the product, right? That's when you get some feedback. So the second thing is, does this company have the right product to win the market. Because I do think, especially in the B2B now, SaaS more and more, is dictated by the end user and what they use. So you gotta make sure you're the one that people are gonna pick. And then the last part is, do you have the right team? Does this company have the right team that you're going to back? And that's probably the number one thing, besides the size of market, that venture capitalists bet on, is the people. Because early stage you don't really have much of a business yet. Or even a product. And I think in terms of picking companies to join, same thing, right? Let's say you join a Series C company, what is the management team? What are the dynamics? When things go south, which always happens, how does that management team work together to solve them? Or is there finger pointing? 90% of the time it's fingerpointing. 90% of the time Sales says Marketing didn't generate enough leads. Well, no, let me start...Customer Success and Support says Sales as closing crappy deals. Sales says well, what do you expect? Marketing is driving these bad leaves? Marketing goes, well, what do you expect our Product is missing all this stuff. Product goes well, that's because design is a bottleneck, and it's not shipping. We're not shipping fast enough because design is not ready. Design is like, well, you know what, it's not my fault. I can't hire enough designers, it's recruiting, right? Recruiting..it just goes on. And when I say 9 our of 10, I think that it's 9.8 out of 10. And I made this mistake myself. Before Dropbox, I joined a company that I probably shouldn't have. So a lot of people look at the company profile, and the executives, and where they came from. Oh, this person was at Google for 20 years. Well, you know what, so have like 10,000 other people. And you've seen this at LinkedIn, not everyone's a star at LinkedIn buddy. A lot of stars. But, quite a few duds too. Naber:  Totally. I mean, nature of large numbers like that, for every one of those businesses. Oliver Jay (OJ):  Totally. Totally. Or they haven't seen the right stage that's relevant for your company. So, finding the right team that you think you can bank on just to get through the hard times is really, really important. Don't just look at the profile. Naber:  Nice. Awesome. Great answer. Okay. So, we've gotten through NEA right now. At this point, I believe you jump into Harvard, correct? HBS. Oliver Jay (OJ):  Yeah. Naber:  Cool. So take us through the reason you decided to go get your MBA. Why Harvard, which may be self-explanatory. And then take us all the way up through your decision to join Dropbox. So through that period, Scientific Conservation, Harvard, etc, up through the point where you're joining Dropbox. And then we'll talk about what you were responsible for there. And I've got some, a couple of questions for that. Oliver Jay (OJ):  Yeah, sure. So I decided when I was at NEA that I wanted to be on the operating side. So I was like, they have all the fun. I didn't understand how much pain they had either, honestly, but I was like, it sure seems fun. And, the short answer of why I decided to get my MBA...I was like, okay, well if I got into a great school, I might as well take a break because I'm going to make this career switch anyways. So I'll just do it. And that's literally the logic. And this was mainly...I remember one of my mentors at NEA, John S., who's a fantastic guy, fantastic...Remember remember there was this company called The Ladders? Naber:  Yeah, of course. Yeah. The $100K+ jobs is their thing, right? Oliver Jay (OJ):  Yeah, yeah, yeah. What happened with them? Naber:  They died. I have no idea. It was almost overnight. Because I remember, I mean, I did a lot of research on ladders for at some point in my career. Anyways, I don't know, they just died at some point. Oliver Jay (OJ):  So we we're going to meet with The Ladders in New York. I remember this clearly. This was right around the recession starting, and John's just like, you need to apply to business school. And this was October, and the deadline was coming up in December. So I was like, all right. He convinced me that would be good. I mean, I might as well, I'm going to try it. John's like, you're probably not going to get in, and that's cool, but why not try? Because getting into business school, certainly getting into HBS, is a total crapshoot. It's a total lottery. Yeah. I got some friends who were way more qualified than I am and didn't get in. And I now know it's for sure a crap shoot. So anyways, I applied. And I only had time to apply to one school, and that was not the plan, but I just didn't have time because I had to take the GMAT, write the essays, get the recommendation, all that. I only applied to Harvard assuming that I didn't get in. And then I got in. Naber:  Stop it. Hold on. This is unbelievable. Hold on, hold on. So you only applied to Harvard and you got end up... Oliver Jay (OJ):  Yeah, it wasn't because I had so much confidence or that it was the only school that I would go to. I was gonna apply to like five. But dang it, man, these essays, they take like...I haven't written these essays in a long time, and they go back to humanities OJ. It took forever. I just didn't have time. I think the the application was due January 1st or something, and I remember over Christmas I was writing these essays and I was just like, I don't have time for this. And I just applied one. I really didn't think I was going to go to business school, and then I got it in. And I'm like, oh, okay. I guess I'm going. Naber:  No one can see me losing a right now. Laughing silently while I'm listening to this, and not believing it. This is a great story about getting into Harvard Business School. Such a good story. All right, so you're at Harvard, what's the biggest thing you learned there? And then take us through up to you joining Dropbox. Oliver Jay (OJ):  Ah, man. Yeah. So Harvard was great. Naber:  You must have met some really cool, interesting people. Oliver Jay (OJ):  I met some amazing people. And people that I considered to be my best friends today. That's where I met the co-founders of Grab, I'm on their board now. I met a lot of great professors.Look, I think the thing about business school...A lot of people poo poo on business school. They're like, it's expensive, you don't learn anything, it's just networking. I mean, I call bullshit on that. Because I'm a nerd, I to learn. And so I studied. I'm like, wow, this is interesting. And I'll tell you at that point I was going through this big clean tech phase in my life. I was really interested in clean tech. I was doing clean tech investments at NEA. I was part of the environment group at HBS. I was super active. I thought I was going to build a career in clean tech. And now that I'm selling productivity software for the past seven years, it's given me a different kind of perspective looking back. But I was so into clean tech. And I met some great people through that, through other who have similar interests. But I'll tell you, so my first job was Scientific Conversation - they basically sell building automation software to help optimize the equipment in commercial buildings to optimize their energy spend. Think of it as HVAC optimization software. I would not have been able...and I took a Sales role coming out of school, which is interesting because very few people go to HBS to come out to be a Sales guy. It's pretty rare. And I sold to real estate developers. And if I did not take a real estate class at HBS, I wouldn't know how to speak that lingo. Cap rates, and TNI, and whatever. I mean it's just, there's different things. I learned that from school. And then what was really interesting was then Scientific Conversation went through a big period of restructuring. And I had to be a big part of that. I took this class called turn arounds, because it's a new topic, when you learn about - how to turn around companies? How do you learn about bankruptcy law? You learn about how to negotiate with your creditors so you can live to die another day, so to speak. And then I used those skills. I literally looked up my notes on bankruptcy. Because I would call our creditors, and it'd be like, hey man, we're about to go under here. I'm going to give you, I know I owe you $2 million, I'm gonna give you $2,000, or you can have a shot at bankruptcy court. Anyways, long story short, business school was awesome. I met great people, and I learned a ton, got great exposure, and I actually implement the things that I learned. Naber:  Wow. That's great. Great Story. Okay. So Boston, Beantown, you leave. Scientific Conversationis next, you join in a Sales and Partnerships capacity. Every Harvard Business Schoolers dream, joining Sales right after that. Oliver Jay (OJ):  That's why you go to HBS. Naber:  That's right. #HBS. So what is the biggest thing that you learn at that business, and why did you join Dropbox? Oliver Jay (OJ):  Well, a lot of my lessons learned around the people, in part, was what I learned at Scientific Conservation. It had on paper, all the things that most people look for, right? I said, oh, pre rocket ship, hot industry, a team that looked really, really strong on paper. That's what I went for. You know, hypergrowth. I remember Kleiner Perkins, NEA, Accel. Everybody was like, this is the next one, this is the next OPOWER. This is the commercial version of OPOWER. I thought it was the best thing. But you know what, just didn't have the right team to execute going through the tough times. and that's what I learned. That's honestly the biggest lesson I learned. I met a lot of great people. But that's where I really realized, wow, so much of execution is the people, and the chemistry of those people. And that's what I learned there. So why did I Dropbox? Honestly, I mean...we had to do a big turn around in Scientific Conservation. Within a year we went from 30 people, to 180 people, and then I had to play a big part in restructuring down back to 90 people, and then down to 50 people. I mean it was a year that felt 10 years. So Dropbox, I showed up, people on scooters, drinking from coconuts...you've been to the office. It was just a different world. I'm over here trying to make payroll, literally. There was a payroll period where I... Naber:  And letting people go daily. Oliver Jay (OJ):  Ugh, brutal. People always ask, what's the biggest done, whatever. I'll say the biggest deal I've done was in...I broke my lease, the Scientific Conservation lease with a real estate developer...Because we had signed this Embarcadero Bay Bridge View Office for a seven year lease, even though the company was making zero in revenue, so that tells you something. But thankfully, the one thing that went in our favor was the rental rates have actually gone up in SF. Far, far greater than our committed rate of increase in her seven year lease. So they way I made payroll was, I went to the developer and I said, I will break the lease if you give me x amount of money. Well, they didn't know it was how we were going to make payroll. It was hilarious. And then negotiation, at the end the thing that clinched the deal was office furniture. I was like, I'll throw in the office furniture. Naber:  Stop it. I always find it mind blowing when in residential, someone rents someplace for like, a few grand more a month just because the furniture's included. And that was your deal with the developer. That guy has done tons of deals, tons of deals, and this guy closes over the furniture. Oliver Jay (OJ):  Honestly, I probably would have gotten it done anyways. I was actually in my head thinking, I don't want to pay to get rid of the furniture. That was what was going to be my head. Naber:  Oh, that's a good win-win. All right, so you join Dropbox. There's coconuts, there's cupcakes, there's all of it. So walk us through in one or two minutes, what you were responsible for and the jumps that you made at Dropbox. And then I've got a few questions around some of your super powers, okay? Oliver Jay (OJ):  Yeah. So Dropbox I went in as one of the first business generalists. There wasn't a role, it really just do everything. So, looking to our payments gateway infrastructure, looked into capital financing for our data center to help raise capital. I looked into real estate because they're like, oh, now you're a real estate pro from my background. So I had to try to figure out finding office space. Andthis was all in the first three months. We were moving so fast. And and then there was this business called Dropbox for Teams that was starting to grow really, really quickly. And the Head of Business, our COO was like, can you just take a look at that. Basically, do the Sales Ops work to see what's going on. And that's how I got into it. And then one thing led to another. So took that role on, started adding some visibility into the business. And then moved into actually managing part of it. And ended up running a lot of it, growing the North America Online and Inside Sales teams to 70 or so people. And then got the opportunity to co lead our APEC expansion efforts. Naber:  With Tony, is that right? Oliver Jay (OJ):  With Tony, that's right. And they're like, all right, figure it out. I mean, that was it. Figure out APAC, period. So then we did that, that led to both of us moving out to APAC for a year and a half. Started the Australia office, Japan office, I was gonna think about Singapore, but didn't end up doing Singapore. Also looked at Latin America, when the new CEO joined. He's like, well, there's another continent. Someone's going to look at it. And they just put it on our plate. And then did that for a while. And then when I came back to the US, transitioned into the Corp Dev team, so think about M&A at Dropbox. And then through that experience I realized I really missed building teams. Which is why I went back to the Sales world at Asana. Naber:  Nice. After hearing your story, and I saw a lot of firsthand when I was working with teams at Dropbox and I'm working with teams at Asana, now I get that, why you made that jump. Or at least why that was the right time in your life, and in missing teams to want to make that jump. Wow. That's really interesting. Okay. So a couple things about Dropbox. There is a theme, and you've done this really interestingly coming at it from, let's call it the Sales Ops angle first, and then jumping into manage these teams. Which some of the best operators I know from a Sales and Marketing perspective, have come from the Ops side. I look at them as the Ying to my Yang. They speak a beautiful language and I want to hear all of it. So as you're doing that, you're building things from scratch. And you are building at one phase at Dropbox, and you go through a lot of different phases of growth in your international expansion playbook. You're also going through phases you've been in before at Asana, and planning for phases that are things you've seen before, and things you know a lot about. So let's talk about your international expansion playbook. As you're going through phase by phase, and one, making the decision as to whether or not you should do it in the first place - Expanding outside of, let's call it the US for now, into other markets? And then two, once you decide yes through that evaluation process, you want to go about doing it. What's your step by step process you're going through in order to expand internationally? You can use the Dropbox example or the Asana example, or both, If you just want to say, hey, this is what we did then and this is what we did then. But either way, what's your phase by phase and step by step approach as you're executing on this expansion playbook. Oliver Jay (OJ):  So I think the first is understanding that international operations is not...Adding international operations is, honestly from management overhead perspective, it's the minute you go international, for every new region and office you add is equivalent of adding two, and the next one you add is like adding three. There's a complexity, the overhead is so much more, and sophistication is so much greater. And that's not to say it's not worth it, right? Obviously I do it, but it's something that I think you need to be really, really honest with yourself, with your teams on whether or when are you ready for that? Because honestly, one of the things that I think about is, most companies go international too late, right? I think Slack is a good example. Slack to me, and I have a lot of good friends at Slack, so maybe you have to delete this. But, international is only 30% of their revenue, or 35% of their revenue at this scale. And I think Microsoft got a jump on them internationally. Well Microsoft has a jump on everybody, but especially internationally. And so, you want to go fast, but you got to make sure you commit. So step one, before you commit 100%, what you can do is just play the digital game. Localize your product, localize your ads, localize your website. And I would say probably even in that order. Again, it depends on what product you have, right? But if you have a user facing product...and in Enterprise it starts with the product. In many countries you may have one or two people who aren't very comfortable with English, but the rest of the team may not be. And you're not going to get good adoption that way. So I think that's important, localize your product, as long as you feel you have enough confidence that it's worth the engineering investment. Because it's a big investment. There's a certain threshold where you're going to start seeing...Whether it's tickets that come in asking for your language, or your community, you'll get that ask. Yeah, I mean, maybe French and Spanish, the website, that's as an obvious one. But what's interesting is you can some good lift from just localizing the ads, in Dutch or Japanese, and it points to an English website. You're still going to get some incremental dollars there. So play the digital game. And then at some point, and you have to come up with a framework, and it's different company to company, and you don't have to be that Scientific. But at what point do you feel you're ready to go open an additional office? And almost always, you'll see English speaking markets adopt first - UK, Australia, are the next two, and Canada. Large markets that, for many reasons, and we're not gonna have enough time talking about them, but they usually are the next to adopt technologies. And so your next move almost guaranteed is going to be somewhere in Europe, right? And you pick between Dublin, Amsterdam or London and we can talk about which one, why, but it's going to be one of those three almost guaranteed, right? So setup your Europe hub. And then depending on the type of company, you can think about growing from there. So then the most obvious, next markets would be France and Germany in Europe. And so then you got to make that decision on whether you want to service those markets in whichever hub you've picked, or you go even more local. And I think that depends on the type of company that you have. We talked about Australia, that makes a ton of sense already. The minute you're looking into the UK, if you have the bandwidth, you should look in Australia as well. I would think that the market demand would be equivalent in terms of the time. And then Japan. Japan, people forget, is the second largest IT market in the world. And they're early in their cloud adoption. But for SaaS companies, it's really starting to take off. And so Japan is a market where investing in early can pay off dividends three, four years down the road. Japan is Slack's number two market. It's Salesforce's number two market. But it takes years to build up that market. And so you can start thinking about that. So the order of sequencing, I guess I'm not even...I guess I've done it enough now to just know the sequence instead. I mean the first time I did this at Dropbox it was like, okay, how many users do we need to see before we go green light here? How much revenue? How many businesses? How many domains we want to see? And, I've traveled so much in the last couple of years. This is the order that I would go in, Naber:  Good one. Awesome. You know what's really interesting about that, is you mentioned you've looked at the data, and from the data side it says to do this, this, and this. What you're saying is don't necessarily do the work that everyone else has has done. This is an all likelihood, the chronology of the markets that you will go into next. And that's really interesting. Don't redo all the work. Do not reinvent the wheel. I have two follow-up questions to that. One is how do you know whether to hire local, even more local, versus doing it from a regional hub? How do I know whether or not I should sell from Dublin or London or Amsterdam into France, Germany, Spain, Italy, some of the Nordic countries, etc? Or hire local in that particular market? And by that I mean, when do I do it? And I'll ask the other question after that. Oliver Jay (OJ):  Yeah. To me it all depends on your target audience. Who are you trying to go after and how? So if you're going after SMBs, this is primarily going to be Inside Sales function. You're not showing up. It's not a relationship sale. Then there is so much value in centralizing to the last minute that you can because you're still trying to figure it out. So Asana is small deals, we start with small teams and then we expand them. And, we essentially have a big machine in Dublin. Why? Because the French rep who has learned some new insight selling to Mid-market & SMB companies in France can share with the Nordic Rep, and those best practices when you're early in a region, you got to learn quickly, and you're gonna to learn from the field. And that information transfer is so valuable. And then eventually you go the other way. You launch a new product, you've got to enable the team. There's a lot of operational overhead to enabling lots of people in the field, versus you just fly into in one office, and you basically enable a team all at once. So huge, huge advantage to centralizing. However, if your Sales cycle and process relies a lot on relationship building, whether it's for bigger deals, whether it's a complex deal that relies on partners, then you need to go in the field. And that's where showing up makes a ton of sense. And what changes is the unit economics of that office, where if you open an office in Paris, now showing up at a mid-market opportunity of a 10K Pounds deal, normally is not going to justify a flight in, hotels, make it work. But now it's just, down the street. I mean not down the street, but now you can justify making that visit, and absolutely everything that increases the conversion rate. So there is benefit there too. But balancing operational overhead, learning earlier, I am a big believer that you should hold off as long as you can. Because once you're decentralized, there's no way you can centralize again. Or you can, but it's very painful. You gotta shut down offices, and it's really painful. So you want to wait as long as possible. Naber:  Nice. Great answer. Thank you. And then, second question is...So you're going through this process of massive expansion, within Dropbox and Asana, and you're going through different stages of growth. One of the things that you need to constantly think about...which I don't necessarily believe that a large number of Heads of Sales and Heads of Marketing are very good at this. One of the things you need to constantly be aware of...and coming from VC, you've got interesting perspective on this, and not all the people who have gone from VC to operator and done it with the amount of, not only success, but the amount of speed that you've done it...So a Head of Sales and Marketing needs have the right mindset, with planning and execution, with unit economics in mind. So how do you make sure that you have the right mindset? What is your mindset when you're thinking about balancing, things LTV to CAC ratios, versus booking in revenue growth rate expectations, versus the growing pains of teams and the engagement of those teams. How do you think about incorporating unit economics into your approach? And how do you think about that as a Head of Sales and Marketing? Oliver Jay (OJ):  Okay. So I would say there's a couple of things. First in terms of mindset, if you're leading Sales and Marketing, let's say your company is growing at 100%, right? My mindset, and I tell this to all my Managers, is that my job is to plan and execute as if we were 12 months from now. My Manager's job is to execute and plan as if we were six months from now. Your IC's are the ones who were executing to quarter to quarter. And I think that's something that I always drill into my team, and my Manager because most people manage to the quarter. And by the time you manage to a quarter, you've already forgotten about the next one, and you're basically accumulating debt. And I think part of what's challenging and exciting about managing in high growth, is you've got to balance executing and the job at hand, but at the same time develop the vision of where you need to get to - So if you're a line Manager six months from now - and you've got to do both at the same time. So as my leads, they got the quarterly number, that's great. I just assume they're going to hit it. I mean just tell me if you're not going to hit it, but I'm assuming you're going to hit it. What are the programmatic things you're building in right now as if you're six months from now? Because that is going to take time to build it. And then once you build it, boom, now you're ready. My job is 12 months. So right now, I'm thinking about what my team needs to be doing this time next year. Because, well, my team is getting pretty big now. It's hard to steer a big ship. And so if I'm optimizing for something for the end of the year, not to say that's I don't do that, I do that. But I also push myself to think longer because for me, and from my angle, what's going to happen in the second half of this year has already been shipped. Our performance, our unit economics, our, whatever programmatic infrastructure we build is going to be, it's already too late to change that. So I'm thinking ahead. I think that's important because, you mentioned about unit economics, your unit economics need to change over time. And so you got to work with your management team, your finance team, to understand what unit economics you need to have this time next year. So that you can slowly migrate there. Otherwise you're just hiring heads, heads, heads, heads, heads, and eventually you're like, oh, one day you wake up and finance is like, okay, you're going to get three heads next year, but you have the grow revenue revenue by 50%. So that's the high level mindset that I think is really important, to understand end state first, and work with finance to understand what that looks like. And so I know next year what my unit economics need to be. Now, I can start back filling. And then this is what I do to backfill. So what I do is, I ask my teams to now start thinking about, not unit economics first though, strategy. First strategy, then tactics, then numbers. So for example, my team in Europe. Right now, it's July, and it's the end of our quarter this month. The leads are going to come over to the US and present their strategy for next year, so basically the next 18 month strategy. What do I mean by strategy? Who's our primary customer? Who are we trying to win over and outserve everybody else. Why? And where are we going to focus? Because you can't go after everything. And when I think about Europe as an example, a microcosm of the world, the UK is very different than Germany, which is very different than Spain, and very different than the Nordics. So, if someone calls me and tells me this is my EMEA blanket strategy, I'm like, that's not a strategy. I want you to define what winning looks in the Nordics, and define what winning looks in Spain. Portugal, not as important to me, lump it into that region. Iberia, right? Or something. But, I think it's important that to have a view where you define success. Okay, this is what I'm trying to accomplish in Germany. Align on that first. That's a strategy. Then the tactics. How are we going to do that? Okay. in Germany we're going to go after this segment

Guest: Ryan Burke - SVP, International @InVision (Formerly SVP, Sales & Custome Success @InVision; Formerly @Compete, @Mainspring, @Goldman Sachs) Guest Background: Ryan joined InVision in 2014 as the Vice President of Sales. He quickly grew his remote salesforce of 3 to over 100 talented professionals responsible for identifying new market opportunities for collaborative design, developing new revenue streams and managing both enterprise and inside sales. Ryan was eventually promoted to SVP, Sales before taking on his current role as the SVP, International leading their international expansion efforts around the world. Prior to InVision, Ryan was at Moontoast as a member of the senior management team. He created and managed both enterprise and inside sales functions, selling both SaaS and custom solutions to clients including Toyota, P&G, GM, Microsoft and others. Prior to Moontoast, Ryan was the SVP of Sales at Compete which was acquired by WPP and later became Millward Brown Digital. He led all sales efforts, including a senior vertical enterprise team as well as an inside team selling the Compete.com SaaS product. Guest Links: LinkedIn | Twitter Episode Summary: In this episode, we cover: - The 3 F's to Build Your Sales Team from 1-50 - The InVision Story - InVision = 1,000 Remote Employees: How to Hire, Onboard, Manage and Communicate w/ Remote Teams - The Role of Sales in Creating & Cultivating a Global Brand & Community - Inside Sales vs. Enterprise Sales Full Interview Transcript: Naber: Hello friends around the world. My name is Brandon Naber. Welcome to The Naberhood, where we have switched on, fun discussions with some of the most brilliant, successful, experienced, talented and highly skilled Sales and Marketing minds on the planet, from the world's fastest-growing companies. Enjoy! Naber: Hey everybody. Today we have Ryan Burke on the show. Ryan Burke joined InVision back in 2014 as the Vice President of Sales. InVision has a $1.9 billion valuation and $350 million in capital raised. Ryan quickly grew his remote salesforce of three to over 100 talented professionals responsible for identifying new market opportunities for collaborative design, developing new revenue streams, and managing both Enterprise and Inside Sales teams. Ryan was eventually promoted to SVP of Sales before taking on his current role as a Senior Vice President for International @InVision leading their international expansion efforts around the world. Prior to InVision, Ryan was at Moontoast as a member of the Senior management team. He created and managed both Enterprise and Inside Sales functions, selling both SaaS and custom solutions to clients including Toyota, P&G, GM, Microsoft and others. Prior to Moontoast, Ryan was the SVP of Sales at Compete, which was acquired by WPP and later became Millward Brown Digital. He led all Sales efforts at Compete as the SVP of Sales, including a senior vertical Enterprise team as well as an Inside Sales team selling Compete.com SaaS solutions. Here we go. Naber: Ryan, awesome to have you on the show. How are you doing? Ryan Burke:     I'm doing great. I'm doing great. Thanks for having me. Brandon. Naber: I've seen you with a beard without a beard and a lot of my research I've been doing in the last few hours here. I like the beard and without the beard. It's very rare you can say that about someone you like it equally, and I typically lean towards beard by, I really like both. Ryan Burke:     And now it's the grey beard. Now it's the grey beard. Naber: It's like, you go from all bald on the face to some salt and pepper, to a lot of salt, and then you're just, it sinks in. This is just a grey beard. This is just a great, love it. Love it. You and I have gotten to know each other personally over the last few months professionally as well, which is quite cool. I'm happy that we get to, go through a lot of this, as content today with you. What I figured we could do is go through some personal stuff first. So start with Ryan Burke as a kid, what you're interested in. Then ultimately graduate into, pun intended, where are were in school with Baldwin the Eagle up in Boston, and then all the way through your professional jumps into your time at InVision. And in that time we'll just cover a bunch of superpowers as well as things that I know, people have said that you are very good at. And I know that you excel at given a lot of the places you've worked, and roles that you've had. Sound okay? Ryan Burke:     Yeah. Awesome. Awesome. Cool. Naber: So Westford, MA. What was it like for Ryan Burke as a kid? What were you like? What were you interested in? What were some of your hobbies? Let's go. Ryan Burke:     Yeah, definitely, definitely. So Westford is about 40 minutes northwest of Boston. Typical New England town with the centre of town, and the old church, and the common, and all of that. And it was great. Kind of prototypical New England childhood riding a bike around the neighbourhood and doing that whole thing. It was funny, my first job actually was, snake busters. So my buddies and I, when we were, I don't know, maybe 12, decided that we were going to rid the neighbourhood of snakes. So we would walk to people's houses, knock on the door, and charge a dollar a snake. It went well, it went well. It went well. We made all these crazy tools and t-shirts. We ended up just grabbing them with our hands, harmless garter snakes. But it went well until my mother came home one day and found a giant trashcan in the garage that had about 40 snakes in it. That was the end of, that was the end of snake busters. Naber: Did you call it snake busters? Ryan Burke:     Oh yeah, we did the tee shirts that we hand drew. I mean, it was right around, I mean, I'm dating myself, but it was right around the Ghostbusters days. So, that was, that was my first commercial endeavour. Got me started in, got me started in Sales. But. Westford was great. I was kind of the athlete, whatever, captain of the basketball and soccer teams in high school, it was great. National Honor Society, I got kicked out my junior year, and came back in my Senior year and won the leadership award. So, it was a fun time and nothing but good things to say about Westford. I had a great childhood. I stay in touch with a lot of my friends still from Westford, pretty close to the community. And the Grey Ghosts, which was our mascot, which I still think is a great name, and I was the 200th graduating class of Westford academy. So it was public high school, but 200. Naber: So, one more question then we'll, we'll talk about your move up to BC. What did your parents do, when you were growing up? And what were some of the hobbies and interests you had outside of sports? Because obviously, you were quite athletic. Ryan Burke:     Yeah, definitely, definitely. So my dad was, that day and age was still the time of the long runs at companies. And so my dad was that a Digital Equipment Corporation. So he was at DEC for shoot, 30 years, I think, a long, long time. He ran manufacturing for a couple of plants there. My mom worked there as well for about 10 years. Naber: Is that how they met? Ryan Burke:     No, they met outside of Hartford, Connecticut, in college. But my dad had a great run in Digital. My favourite thing was during his retirement ceremony, they renamed the big board room, the Bill Burke Board Room, and then they did a top 10 Bill Burke famous quotes. The number one quote for Bill Burke that I'm not sure what it says about him for his 30 years. There was f*ck 'em. I mean it was celebrated, and it was a quote on a plaque, and all of that. But for 30 years that was interesting, and it kind of describes my dad, in a nutshell, a little bit. Naber: It's funny because people that know your dad if you gave him 10 guesses, they'd probably guess it. People not knowing your dad, like myself, if you gave me a hundred guesses, that wouldn't have been it. I'm so glad that that just happened. Ryan Burke:     Yeah. So, and then the hobbies. Like it's interesting, you grew up in Massachusetts, but for whatever reason, my brother and I got really into fishing. And so, that's become a lifelong passion. I actually started and ran a fishing tournament for about 13 years on Cape Cod, kind of post-graduation. The Headhunt. The Harwich Headhunt. And yeah, it just became a passion, and I still fish all the time, and I've gotten my kids involved, and all of that. But that was one of the things that my brother and I would sort of hike through the woods, and find little ponds, and build our little boats or whatever, and float out there, and catch bass and perch and whatever all day. And then we got the bug and started to get closer to the ocean and do some of the offshore fishing, which has been great. Naber: Wow. Very cool. All right, we're going to get into BC, but I have to go rogue on this one. If you're not heavy into fishing, what's the best part about fishing? Like, why do you love it? Ryan Burke:     Yeah. I mean honestly now that we get out offshore and go out on the ocean, you're just so in such a different environment and a different mindset, and really things just kind of melt away. And just from the stresses of the world being 10-15-20 miles offshore in that type of environment, we go to tuna fishing, there are whales jumping, whatever's going on, it's just a real escape. The phone's half the time don't work, and so, it's just...a lot of times we'll go out for an eight-hour fishing trip and my wife will say, well, you didn't catch anything. What the heck did you guys do out there? You're in this small confined space with like three other friends. She's like, what do you guys talk about the whole time out there, not catching fish. And so, it is a fairly intimate experience as well with your buddies, and there are beers involved, and all of that. Yeah, I just liked the whole like mindset change when you kind of get out on the boat, and you're heading out, like everything else sort of melts away the further you get offshore, and I really enjoy that. Naber: Wow, that's great. And from your sons perspective, as they're growing up, that's so cool that you're bringing them into your headspace and that world, to truly disconnect like that. That's really special. All right, you're away from the Ghosts, you're moving onto the Eagles - Baldwin The Eagle, your best friend. Why Boston College? And maybe a couple of minutes on what you were looking like in University. Ryan Burke:     Yes. So, it's funny, BC was the only local school that I applied to. I really want to go to Duke, didn't get in. I almost went to Wake Forest. For whatever reason, I wanted to go and explore another part of the country, but I ended up, going to BC. Obviously great school, a lot of fun. And I'll say I'm really happy with the decision based on what it was able to give back to my family. And so what happened at BC, the football games and the tailgates. And so my dad, my mom would get season tickets and they'd come to every game. And they just developed a great relationship with all of my roommates and friends. Sometimes inappropriately with like, the conversations, they would hear were just crazy. And they get to meet other parents. And so over the four years, like my parents were really involved in my college experience. And for them to be honest writing the checks, like I felt like that was an opportunity for me to give them something back. And I always cherish that, bringing them into that experience. And we still talk about the glory days of the football games and beating another game Notre Dame, or whatever. So it was a great experience, and being in Boston was a lot of fun. Even most of the friends that I had at BC, were actually from outside of Boston. But yeah, BC was great. We were sort of in the heyday of sports when I was there too. We had some good runs, they're obviously terrible now. But I also, all things considered, I liked having a team. Me and my wife went to Holy Cross, and I kind of give her crap all the time because, it was great school as well, but like having a team and a brand that you can sort of follow. And I'd still all way too close to I know every high school recruit that football team is right now and I read it every morning. And it's a little creepy, I know, but I'm pretty involved. Naber: That's a job because they come from all the country to BC obviously. Ryan Burke:     And I did it, I did it as a job a little bit. So I got so involved after graduation that I actually started writing for a BC website that was all focused on recruiting. And so I did that for about three years, just on the side for shits and giggles, and go to the game, sit in the press box, interview Matt Ryan after the game on the field, and all of that. And I was when I was still trying to figure out if I was going to get into the sports, as a career. But it was a lot, it was a lot of fun to do that. Naber: You know, it's really interesting. We're going to get into your professional jumps. That's a really good segue. But what I find when I'm talking to a lot of these, a lot of folks in this podcast and a lot of the folks I really admire professionally with an entrepreneurial spirit, it comes out in so many different ways. And I actually don't think that the person talking about it really knows that it's coming out. So from snake busters all the way through to, like you have side hobbies you've turned into like organized things that you do. Like, getting into BC sports, writing about it, making an organized effort and project around that. Same thing with fishing, 13 years of running that tournament. Like, taking your hobbies and turning them into something organized, structured so that everyone can enjoy and you're the driving force behind it with your effort because effort is the great equalizer within entrepreneurship. I think that that entrepreneurial spirit always comes out in people's hobbies, and I don't think that most of the people talking about it often think about it like that. But it's coming out in your hobbies right now. That's pretty cool. Ryan Burke:     Yeah. And if you want, I can do a quick sidebar into a hobby that turned into somebody that, did you hear about my book club? Naber: Oh, don't tell me, scorpion something. What is it? Ryan Burke:     Scorpions. New Speaker:  Scorpions. Yeah. Tell me about it. Ryan Burke:     Something I'm proud of and something I will also say is potentially my biggest regret. But my wife was in publishing, and she'd go to these book clubs and she would come home have a couple of glasses of wine and saying, Hey, did you talk about the book? Nah, we just sorta talked, and chatted, and drank wine. And I was like, you know what, this is a bunch of BS. I'm going to go and I'm going to start a book club to spite your book clubs, and just show you that I can build a better book club than any of the book clubs you've been a part of. And she's yeah, yeah, whatever. And so I was all right, I'm going to call it the scorpions. I came up with a tagline that was "Read. Bleed.", and it was all sort of tongue in cheek. So in Boston, it was like the all hard guy book club. And so I got about seven or eight of my friends who were smart, a bunch of entrepreneurial folks as well, a few guys that have been CEOs and sold companies. And we all read. And so what we did was we would go to places like dog racetracks, or shooting ranges, but we would actually talk about the book. So we would actually talk about the book. We would do trivia about the book. And then we would typically end it with a physical challenge to see who could pick the next book. And so what happened was one of the guys that was in the book club worked with my wife in publishing, and he released a press release. Because my whole point was I'm going to create the Anti- Oprah Book Club. I'm going to create, where a woman can walk into a store and know exactly what book she should be buying her husband, boyfriend, or whatever with a scorpion stamp. And so we read a book, and then we released a press release just for fun and games. Scorpions select, I don't remember what the first book was. Scorpions select this book as their official monthly book club, Dah, Dah, Dah. And we did it a couple of times, and the next thing you know it starts getting picked up. And I get a call one day from The New Yorker. And the New Yorker says, Hey, we want to do an interview with you. We do a feature on a book club every month. And we read about the all hard guy book club, the Scorpions. And we're like, all right. And so, called and interviewed me, Dah, Dah, Dah. And they put it on their website. Called back the next day. Hey, this has gotten so, so many hits. We want to go front page tomorrow. we need more pictures. I'm like, I don't have any pictures. Like literally get up that morning with my wife, take my shirt off, put up World War Z, which we're reading the time up in front of me with a bottle of Jack Daniels, and she snaps a picture on her iPhone. And that next thing you know, that's on the front page of TheNewYorker.com next day. And so then it gets picked up, and Gawker picks it up, we had these magazines reaching out. And what happened was it snowballed very quickly where authors, I mean agents were calling me and saying, Hey, we want you to review our author's book. We want you to give it the scorpion seal. We made like a seal and all this stuff. And we're what is going on here? And we had people calling us from all over the country. Can we start a scorpions thing? A reality TV show reached out to us. My buddy called me at one point, my roommate from college, and he's like Hey, what did you start some stupid book club? I'm like yeah, the scorpions. He's like well I'm reading the 50th-anniversary edition of Playboy, and you guys are in here. And I was what? And so we picked up playboy and we're in there. So we almost got a book deal. We almost got a TV deal. And the whole thing sort of faded. It was at that stage, we're all just having kids. A couple of guys were going to sell their company, and so we really give it the attention. But finally I was able to go back to my wife and say, listen, I proved you wrong, I started a better book club. And now there's talk of bringing it back because I still think there's actually an opportunity in the marketplace for that sort of Anti- Oprah Book Club. And we actually read good, compelling books. And so that was my tie into the hobby question. Naber: You know, it's funny. One of the reasons I love doing the personal side before we jump into all this other stuff is, before you reach out to somebody, before you first have conversations and when you just look up on the pedestal of this person at this company with this title, and your background, your experience, I think it's quite intimidating before you start having conversations and humanize the experience. And that's one of the things I love about, about this section. But that's a perfect example. If you're hey, quick sidebar, I want to tell you about something and the entire Scorpion's book club, love it. It's great. So cool. All right. So that is, that is not a segue, but I'm going to create one, into, you're leaving Boston College. And so Scorpions Book Club, the best thing you ever did, but we'll talk about some of the second and third best things you ever did after, after that. You're leaving BC, and run us through your professional experiences, up through the end of when you're at Compete so we can jump into InVision. So just run us through, the companies you were at, and the roles that you're in, maybe like five to seven minutes so we can, we can get some detail on there as well. Ryan Burke:     Yeah, definitely. Definitely. The first job I had out of college...I still get amazed at the jobs and internships that today...I'm really impressed. Like back in my day, it was kind of like, all right, we're going to travel to Europe, we're going to screw around after graduation, whatever. And so when I was midway through my Senior year in college, a buddy called me - this is 1996 the Olympics in Atlanta - and he said, hey, I work for a staffing company, Randstad, I've gotta hire like 20,000 people. Do you want to come work for the Atlanta Olympics for the summer? And I was sure, I got nothing going on. And I became known as the kid on campus that, like, I'd walk into any party and be like, hey Burke, I heard you can give me a job with the Olympics. And I'm like, yeah. So people giving me their resumes to work at the Olympics. So I think I got 40 kids from BC jobs at the Olympics. So we all went down there, and we all rented condos in the same little complex. And this was back in the Buckhead days of Atlanta too, the bars were open till five the morning before Ray Lewis ruined it. So worked for the Olympics. Great experience. I ended up staying there for a year, working for the Olympic Committee for a year. And it was just a really, it was a really cool experience. And then randomly, again, I was still trying to figure things out, and I had a buddy call and say, hey, you want to move to San Francisco? And I said, yeah. And jumped in the car, and we moved to San Francisco and slept on a floor for six months, and tried to figure it out. Did some temp things, and then I ended up getting into finance. So I got into a small kind of Muni Bond Equity House, which was, which was really cool. It was a really small, company. I touched so many different parts of the business. from the trading to the operational side and it was good. Series 7, Series 63 the whole deal. And then I use that as a springboard to get into Goldman Sachs. Worked in the private client services group in San Francisco, with Goldman. This was sort of during the heyday too. So, managing some of the early Amazon folks back in the day, and making some of those trades. I was what am I doing wrong? So it was great, and I had a good experience at, Goldman. And then it just, I got to the point where there were some family pulls back to the East Coast and at the same time I was at that stage where I was, on a pretty good trajectory in finance, but it was just something about finance that wasn't really getting my juices flowing. And I just knew. I mean just the culture of it. It very, obviously, money-oriented, and people are doing very well. And I just don't know, it just wasn't for me. And so I knew, okay, if I didn't get out then like I was just going to double down, sell my soul, and do the finance thing. And so I pulled the plug. I found a job back East at a tech consulting company. So this is the tail end of sort of the internet boom, and I got into a company called Mainspring, which was really interesting. It was a really smart group of folks from BCG, and McKinsey, and Bain that basically wanted to create a digital strategy consulting firm. And this is just at the time when all these companies are trying to figure out a digital strategy, nobody knew what it meant. And it was also interesting, in that they had a Sales function. So I joined as an Inside Salesperson, which was, your typical cold calling bullpen environment, and weird because you're dialling for dollars for high-end strategy consulting. And it actually differentiated us in the market a little bit, but I really cut my teeth in Inside Sales there, and just opening doors, and prospecting, overcoming objections. I really liked it. Mainspring actually had a pretty good run for a little while. We ended up going public. And then, the market sort of tanked. And then IBM ended up acquiring Mainspring. And so, it ended up working out in that, it was kind of offered a package. I could have stayed at IBM. It was another one of those decisions where similar to financial services, it was all right, I can take a job with IBM, but do I want to do that long-term at this stage of my career when I knew I wanted to be in something smaller and entrepreneurial. And I liked the small team environment, even at Mainstream when I started it was only 100 people or whatever it was. And that's when I got into Compete. Naber: You spent 11 years there. There's a lot of learnings here. So if you want to take your time and go through the next few minutes to talk about some of the things you learned as you're jumping through each individual step that you had, that's all right because that's probably helpful. Ryan Burke:     Yeah, definitely, definitely. And so Compete was interesting because that was back in the incubator model days. So basically Compete was an incubated business. David Cancel, who's the CEO of Drift, was kind of the first employee founder there. And I journal joined early on. It was basically, we had a web-based panel that we aggregated data and sold back competitive intelligence to companies. So, Hey, my website traffic is this, how does this compare to my peers? My conversion rate is x on my site, how does that compare? And you know, there were some dark days early on. There was your typical start-up, really young management team, screaming matches in the glass-encased conference room that was like raised four feet above, so everybody could see it, you know. And there were a few turnovers of Senior Leadership early on. A few turnovers of the entire Sales team that I survived twice early days. And we did that for the first probably two to three years. I was kind of the top Salesperson. And worked with some really smart people. And again, that entrepreneurial environment that I like, we had trouble figuring it out. And then for us at that point, the inflexion point was really when we decided to go vertical. And obviously not something that I think every business needs to necessarily do, but from a competitive standpoint...I helped found a kind of the wireless practice, and this was back in the Nextel, Singular, AT&T days, and they were all so hyper-competitive. And so we had this really rich data set to show like, how much online traffic are each one of these sides getting. What is their conversion rate to get people to sign up for bill pay? What was their conversion rate for e-commerce? And really valuable data. And so we built some dashboards, we layered on a consulting component on top of that. And it was really, it was really interesting. And that started what was a pretty big catalyst. Wireless became the biggest vertical at the company. I sold the biggest deal with Sprint, which is $500k, when our ASP was like $30k. And it was interesting in the fact that as a Salesperson, what kept me there as well, is when I started that vertical, I was able to position myself as more than just a Salesperson. And I became a wireless expert. And I would go speak at conferences, I would write white papers because that always gave me the credibility when I wanted to go and sit in a room with Senior folks. I mean we would do crazy stuff like I had business cards made, different business cards for like the big wireless conferences, the CTIA's or even the CES's, and I'd get invited as press because I would write white papers, and so they would put me in as pressed. So like here I go to these things I get to sit down for 10 minutes with the CMO of Verizon and the CTO of AT&T to do briefings. And inevitably you share some data. And the other thing that we did at the time was we partnered with Bear Stearns, who was a big analyst in the Wireless space. And we created this really nice white paper that they distributed - a glossy cover, Bear Stearns, and it was all our data. And free data for Bear Sterns, whatever. But that became a little bit of every meeting we would walk into that was on somebody's desk. And so it was very easy to point to that and say, oh, that's our data in there. And they're like, oh really? We didn't know that. Tell us what you did. And so, building a brand beyond just being a Salesperson was really valuable to me from a career perspective. And partnering with somebody like Bear Stearns at the time was really powerful in the space from a wireless analyst perspective. And using that as a vehicle for content was just so big in building our brand at the time. And so, that was the kind of the earlier part of my career at Compete. And there are always times that thought about leaving, but every time it was sort of thinking about it, there was a new opportunity that would arise. And so then I moved into more kind of Sales leadership, and that was a new challenge. And building out sort of an Inside Sales and an Enterprise Sales team. Then `we were required. So the company was acquired by TNS, a big research firm. And then six months later by WPP, so essentially acquired by WPP, became part of that world. And that opened up a whole new world of opportunity and challenges, and that kind of put me into a new role. And then I became Head of Global Sales, SVP of Sales, across Compete. And that was within sort of the WPP, umbrella organization. So that was fun. So yeah, I was there a long time but worked with some really sharp people. My old boss Scott Earnst, I sort of followed him up as well, and he became CEO, and one of my mentors to this day. And so it was a really interesting ride. Definitely a really interesting ride. Naber: Very cool. And that brings, does that bring us to your jump into InVision at this point? Ryan Burke:     I did have a quick move, between there, I went to a company called Moontoast. Naber: Oh, that's right. Yeah, Moontoast. So, hey, before you do that, I want to talk about, you mentioned managing Enterprise and Inside Sales Teams. You've done this at three different organizations if not more if you've done some advisory work on this. But you've done Inside and Enterprise Sales at the same time. A lot of the people listening will either start a business, have started businesses, will be the VP of Sales, VP of marketing, whatever. And they'll either inherit Inside Sales or inherit Enterprise Sales. And usually, they kind of tack one onto the other or they graduate from Inside Sales Leader into Enterprise Sales. You've managed both at three different businesses. Let's talk about that for a few minutes here. What are the main best practices or tips that you have in managing Inside Sales as a contrast to managing Enterprise Sales? And we'll get into the top tips and best practices for that, but Inside Sales first. Inside Sales, what are the biggest differences between managing Enterprise and Inside Sales teams? When you're talking about Inside Sales, what are the best practices and tips for doing that? Ryan Burke:     Yeah, that's a good question. And I think the end of the day it's still, Inside Sales is obviously a lot more transactional and so it's a lot more around kind of that process. And Enterprises is around the process as well, but obviously very different motion, trajectory, timing, all of that. And so, with Inside Sales I would say one thing that's probably most important is figuring out what that customer journey is upfront, and really defining that path, and finding those friction points, and then building a process around what are the activities and behaviors that..like to me, everything kind of boils down to behaviors and activities when it comes to Sales. And that's relatable to Inside and Enterprise. And so performance in numbers is one thing, but you just need to figure out what the right activities are for Inside Sales. So break apart that funnel, figure out what those metrics are, and then really measure on those activity metrics. And that's been probably the most important thing. The other thing is, even when I started at InVision, we'll talk about it, making sure you have the operational infrastructure to define that for Inside Sales, whether it's hiring an operations person, like to me, you can never hire operations too early. I probably waited, I probably waited too long at InVision, and getting that in there early for Inside Sales, and building out, we even call them the leading indicators of what will drive you to a particular transaction. And so I think those behaviours and activities are incredibly important for Inside Sales. And then you just have to evolve it for Enterprise because that's a different motion, different ASP, whatever it is. And so same concept around leading indicators, behaviours and activities, it's just a different framework. And the hardest part is obviously, you sort of view Inside Sales as a stepping stone to Enterprise. And that's not really the case from a mindset standpoint. And that's, you almost have to break bad habits and rebuild them because the Inside Sales folks, currently really good at transactional, driving acquisition, boom, boom, boom. And then you move into Enterprise, you're like, whoa, slow down, let's talk. Now we're value selling, where before it's much more of a product sell. Inside Sales is much more of a product sell. Enterprise Sales is a value sell. And that's a big transition from a mindset standpoint where, step back, make sure you're asking these questions, figuring out obvious things like pain or whatever it is. And again, when we promote Inside Salespeople, sometimes there's that period where the onboarding for Enterprise is just as important as when you're onboarding them as a new employee for Inside Sales because it's a totally new framework and mindset. And if you're using the methodology like MEDDIC or Sandler or whatever it is, you've got to kind of break them down and rebuild them again. Naber: Yup. Yup. That makes a lot of sense. Okay. So moving from Compete to Moontoast, let's hop into why you moved to Moontoast, and then give us a summary of that, and then we'll hop into InVision and I've got a few questions on some of the superpowers that you have, some of the things you've done really well, and a couple that InVision has as well. Ryan Burke:     Yeah. And so Moontoast was a social advertising, kind of rich media, social advertising - rich media within the Facebook feed predominantly, or any social feed. Part of it was at the time I was looking to get out of Compete. Moontoast came along, social was obviously very sexy, they just raised some money. Kind of wanted an opportunity to go in and be the guy from day one, and build it up. And you know, everybody's got a miss on their resume, and this was a miss. I came in, and we had some good momentum, really enjoyed the product team and sort of the position we had in the market. But we also existed within the Facebook ecosystem, which I don't care what you say, they just own everything. It's really hard to do exist. They make one change in their technology and like 20 companies go out of business. So I built a really strong team. I've hired my top guy from Compete, brought him over. Hired some really good Salespeople, a few who I've actually taken to InVision. But the product, we had to re-pivot product, and we ultimately had to re-platform it to try to fill the gap with services while we got the platform, then Facebook changes. We missed it. We just missed the window and things got a little ugly. It was one of those startup things where it was a little messy. And so I ended up leaving. I ended up just saying, you know what, and Moontoast not seeing their Future, we'll leave it at that. But I left. It was a good learning experience, met some really good people there. Social space was interesting, I'll never go back. Then I left there and then that was when I had the opportunity at InVision. And I can tell you kind of how that's how that started as well. Naber: Yeah. So this is good. So people are gonna want to hear the story. You joined really early. You're employee number 35, I believe at InVision, you've got upwards of almost if not above, around the thousand employees or so, shed load of them remote if not all of them remote. Exactly, all of them remote. Like the largest, that I know of, tech workforce in the entire world that is remote - it's unbelievable. So, tell us about the story. Run us through the journey that you've been on so far, and then I've got a question around building your Sales teams from one to 50 that we'll cover, after you kind of tell us what the journey is up until now. Ryan Burke:     Sure, sure. And so the quick story of how I ended up at InVision was, I quit Moontoast so I was out of a job. I was in sort of this panic mode and got some opportunities right away. And I was I don't want to act, move too quick. And then, just really stressful at that time in life, couple kids, like the whole deal. I was like, what am I doing? And was really close, I had paper in hand to an offer as the CRO of another company in Boston. Ended up being out on a boat with a few folks for my old boss, Scott Earnst, goodbye from Compete, and was sitting with Dave Cancel, we're having a beer on this boat, and tell them about my situation. Naber: I've heard so many good things about Dave, by the way. So many good things through the grapevine. I'll meet him sooner than later. But as far as he's such a good guy. Ryan Burke:     Yeah, he is. And just sitting on the boat, and he was like, Hey, don't sign that paper. I was like, why? He's like, you need to talk to Clark at InVision. And I was I don't know anything about InVision. And he's like, design prototyping software. I'm like, I don't know anything about it. Just talk to him. So I didn't sign the paper. We had a couple of conversations, he introduced me to Clark the next day. Had a couple of conversations with Clark, Clark Valberg, the Founder & CEO of InVision, who is just an incredibly interesting, inspiring person. And so the way it went down was, it was like a Wednesday night at probably 9:00 PM in Boston. And Clark, who was in New York, calls me and he's like, alright, I want you to come down tomorrow and meet with the board and meet with me. I'm like, alright, what time? He said, eight o'clock tomorrow morning in New York. And it's like nine o'clock at night in Boston. I'm alright, I'll make it work. And so I go down there, meet with a board member. Clark comes in, and I've never him met in person or anything, and he just sits down and he said, all right, I'm going to spend the next two hours convincing you that this is the wrong job for you. I'm like, interesting. And so we ended up having about a four-hour session on design space, and how Enterprise might not work for design, all of these things. I remember at one point he was like, oh wait, when is your flight? I was well, I missed, it was like an hour ago. He's like, why didn't you tell me? And I was like, well, I want the job, this is super interesting. And so it was great. So we hit it off. Quick background, InVision before me had two VP's of Sales - one lasted a week, one lasted a month. And so I was pretty intimidated, and they were clearly a rocket ship. Even from the early days, you could just see the momentum. And that transactional business, like I had done some the Inside Sales stuff, but like not to that scale before, and build on it from a freemium model. So it was a pretty big leap for both sides and forever grateful for, for Clark taking the chance. And obviously it's been a successful path so far, and a lot of fun. But that's kind of how the whole thing kinda started, which was interesting. Naber: Great. Great Story. And so tell us, tell us about how many people were there when you got there. Like, what the Sales team can seem consisted of, which I'm pretty sure was like two people plus you. And then give us maybe a couple of stats on where you are right now as a company, so we can understand that growth trajectory. And then I'll hop into how you did a lot of those things. Okay? Ryan Burke:     Yeah, definitely. Definitely. So when I joined those 35 people, I think there were three people on the Sales team, that I inherited. And the Enterprise business really didn't exist at that point. It was kind of formally launched a few months beforehand, but really there wasn't, there wasn't much revenue there. But what we were doing is we were getting about a thousand people signing up for the product every day to the free service or the self serve plan .So just incredible product-market alignment, and that momentum, and those signals for the business. And so I came on, now we are about 900 employees globally. We work with 100% of the fortune 100. We are fully remote. Raised $350 million total. So it's been, it's been a ride, that's for sure. And it's been a lot of fun. Naber: Man. Unbelievable. You've got almost a $2 billion valuation on that $350 raised. You've been there for about five years now. Is that right? Ryan Burke:     Yup. Naber: Wow. Amazing. First of all, congratulations on all the success you guys have had. I just think it's an iconic company, an iconic story. And I think you guys are can't miss, can't lose, badass product company who is, building so fast, doing it the right way, which is great...From the outside looking in, and that's even before you and I started having conversations, I'm so impressed. So let's talk about a couple of things. One, you have, you talk a little bit, in the past around building your Sales Team from one to 50. And you talk about it using the story of InVision, so let's use that story. But you talk about, building your Sales team from one to 50, you got to think about the three F's - the First Five, the Foundation, and the Future. Let's walk through each one of those bullets if you don't mind. Why don't we talk about the First Five, first? Actually, you know what, if you want to tee this up at all, that's fine. But I want to hear about the three F's for building your Sales team from one to 50 because it's an excellent framework. Ryan Burke:     Yeah. And so, the way I was thinking about it when I kind of looked back and break it apart is really, figuring out the right people for each stage. Because it evolves and it changes. And then the customer journey changes as you mature, and the deals get bigger, and you move more into the Enterprise. And so you kind of have to chunk it up and hire the right people at each stage, address the customer life cycle at each stage, remove friction points. And so, the biggest thing for me early on was getting the right people in the boat early. And fortunately for me, my first two hires, two Salespeople, that one is now a manager for me in Amsterdam, the other one's the top rep in the US, still here. Which is good because right before I took the job, Mark Roberge from HubSpot, a buddy of mine, called me and he was like, on speed dial who are your two best Salespeople? And I gave him these two names because I have a job. And they both got offers from HubSpot. And they both turned them down. And thankfully...Roberge was like, what the hell? I'm like, I don't know man. And so then I got the job with InVision a month later, and it just worked out like, I called both of them, and I was like you guys are on the team, and it ended up working out really well. And I think, back to the First Five, I think some of the important traits for those folks early on is, they weren't necessarily just Salespeople. Like they were product managers almost at that stage and they just, they knew the product inside and out. And without having, proper Sales Engineer support, or any of that product support on calls, like it was a little bit of the wild west and we had to do our own thing. And InVision couldn't be further at that point, especially couldn't have been further from a Sales culture. Like it was a free product, free value to everybody, designers, it wasn't a push market, it was fully pull-motion, it was all bottoms up. And so we were definitely a little bit out there trying to figure it out. And so, hired these folks early on, that really could talk to the customer, understand their concerns, and their process, and their journey. And then ultimately we built the Sales process around that. And the other key thing about those first people are, you've got to get the people that are on the boat that want to join a company at that stage for the right reasons. If you want to make a lot of money as a Salesperson startup, like InVision at that stage and start, that's not the right place. It's just not, go work at Salesforce. And so, you need to find people that are there because of the opportunity. They want the career opportunity. They want to be co-owners and building something. And that's what the early folks on the sales team, I actually think to this day we still hire people with those profiles...with the trajectory of InVision, like it's still early. And um, that was really critical to find people that wanted to join for the right reasons and not just purely on the financial side. And so getting those builders in early, the ones that can have those product conversations, that was really important for us early on. Naber: Very cool. Yeah, I think in one of the talks that you do, you talk about focusing on key traits - resilience, adaptability and fighters; and then focusing on key motivations - opportunity, vision and ownership. Those six things I think are so important. Do you want to talk about that a little bit? Ryan Burke:     Yeah. And I would say resilience is probably the biggest one because, at any startup, you're gonna have so many challenges. And so, I mean, I've even made some decisions where we've hired people that have had really good runs at really big companies and their resumes are great, and you hire them to a place like InVision, and it doesn't work out, and they're not ready for it. We probably hired them at the wrong time, the people that are better off, like I even tell our recruiters like, go find people that had a big run at a company, at a really successful company. Then went to a startup that ran out of money or a startup that went out of business. And they've gotten their nose bloodied, and they know what it feels like because your nose is going to get bloodied at a startup inevitably at some point. And so you need the people that can take the punches and be resilient and battle through that. Not only can do it, but want to do it. And some of the folks we hired, like they just didn't want to do it at that stage in their career. I don't blame them either. So, you just gotta figure out that profile and make sure that things like resilience that is so important for those early hires. Naber: Yeah, absolutely. And I think it's incumbent upon the person hiring them to help those Salespeople to make that decision. Like oftentimes you don't know that you need to go get your nose bloodied, or you need to go have a failure somewhere else after your first jump from an organization or you've had a really good run or a long run. Like you have to go get that, that that failure, you have to go learn and have that learning experience. Like it is incumbent upon the person hiring those individuals to help those individuals realize whether or not it's the right time in their career to make the jump into that startup or not. Ryan Burke:     Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And so, yeah, that was really important early on. And then in, the only other thing was that I talked about is finding all of those friction points early. So, mapping out that customer journey and figuring out why aren't people buying your product. Is it the price? Did they not trust you? Not know who you are? They do not want to sign up for a longterm commitment? Is it particular features? Like, whatever it is, you've got a map that out, and then start to figure out how do you remove each one of those and address each one of those. And that's really important early on. And that will evolve once you move into the Enterprise, you're gonna have different friction points and you have to readdress them. Security and things like that all start to come in a little bit more, overtly. But early on, like just why don't people have the product in their hands? And do everything you can to remove those friction points to get the product in their hands. Naber: Yeah. Awesome. So there's a couple of examples that you use and some of your past content. Like, if the price is a friction point, using free trials and freemium, you are getting the product into their hands with free trials. Seeing the product in action, doing group Demos. You talk about understanding how they use it, pre-populating the assets and pre-populating the product. Lack of trust in your brand, building customer testimonials. Longterm commitments to a product, offer an opt-out, just get them on board. And then lack of features, sharing the roadmap for the product team, from the product team, getting them involved with that journey, and setting them up, setting the customers up with the product team to help evolve that journey. And I thought the examples you used and the solutions to them, I think those are extremely valuable as you're thinking about each one as different friction points, both as you get started and sometimes you don't solve those problem points with those solutions that you just talked about until mid-stage, late-stage and building Sales teams. So sorry to kind of steal some of that thunder. But I thought you've talked about this a bunch of times in the past and using those examples, I think that that's really valuable for people and it's just great content. Ryan Burke:     You did your homework. You did your homework, Brandon. Naber: Hell yeah, brother. I'm always doing my homework. It's all about the prep in my world. So that's First Five. Now let's talk about Foundation. Ryan Burke:     Yup. Yeah. And so the Foundation is sort of when really want to start building out the process, and that's when, like I said before, like that's when it's really important to hire operations because you're going to start to build out those leading indicators that I talked about - what are those activities that you want to measure? Because again, at this stage it's less about the results. I know that the results are important, but you really need to figure out like all of the specific activities and that'll lead to potential success. You can start to understand like what are the points, even in the Sales process, that you need to, that you're struggling with. And these aren't, these aren't things that are meant to beat the team upon. There's always like this head trash, and people are like, ah, I don't you to measure how many meetings I have a week, and I don't want you to measure many prospecting calls I'm doing, whatever. And it's like, that's not the point. The point is not to like manage you out if you're doing it. The point is to help identify the coaching opportunities for the managers to say, okay, you're not able to get people to respond to your emails. Like, let's go through those and evaluate. You're not getting enough meetings. Like, let's look at some of your other outreach. You're not converting meetings opportunities. Let's go through your talk track in those meetings. Their guidelines and they're really coaching opportunities is what they essentially are. Naber: Diagnostics. Exactly. Ryan Burke:     Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And so, building that Foundation. The other thing, for a specifically for a company like InVision early on, is, how do you offer value beyond the product? And I'm really sort of incredibly lucky and proud of what we do at InVision because we offer so much more beyond the product. But that's really important early because to some extent you need to build the trust and the credibility with your customers when your product doesn't always fulfil every promise. And that buys you time, especially early on. That's really important. So even when the Sales team, I never want somebody to prospect and try to set up a meeting to just talking about the product, it's like, offer something of value - a piece of content, whatever it is, but like offer value to somebody all the time. And you can, there are opportunities to do that beyond on the product. I mean, just a quick, a quick thing. I mean, our CEO is a brilliant marketer. And one of the things that we did is we made a movie. And so, even when I first started, Clark was Hey, we're making a movie. I was like, what are you talking about? And he's like we're making a feature-length film on design. It's like, you're crazy. And we hired this production company out of New York and flew around the country, and we made a feature-length movie called design disruptors. And it was an intimate look at companies that were using product design to disrupt entire industries. Google, Airbnb, Netflix, all of these, all of these companies. And we made this awesome movie, and we weren't in it. InVision wasn't in it, but it was brought to you by InVision. And so what we did was, we did a world premiere in San Francisco, Castro Theater, red carpet, press, the whole deal, VIP dinner after. Then we did one in New York, and we did one in London, and they were huge. And then what happened was, we were like alright, we're going to release the movie. But then people started emailing us and saying, hey, how can we do a screening here? I want my executive team at Uber or NBC or at Salesforce to see this. And so we sort of weaponized. And we didn't release it to the public. And we said, all right, if you want to do a screening or at your community, you know, wherever, we will host it. And I think we've probably done 500 screenings across the globe at this point. You name a company, we're doing...we're doing one next week in Europe with a company, and what an opportunity to one, reach out to somebody and say, Hey, we've got this incredible story that will help your management team understand the value of a design-centric approach. It's super entertaining. Why don't we come on, have some drinks, get a couple of hundred people in the room, whatever it is. Sometimes we'll even do a panel, we'll get people and product leads. We'll do a panel discussion after the movie. And it's been such a great a vehicle for us. I mean, now we have a full, we have a whole film team now at InVision, we did a documentary with IBM or called The Loop on their process, celebrated and evangelize their process, which, sort of strengthened our relationship with IBM. But again, offered value to the community, which the movie then ultimately did. Like it was a free offering from us to the community. Here's some really good content, best practices, examples, in an entertaining format that we are going to deliver to you as part of what our brand represents. Now we've got a new movie that we're releasing this fall. And it's been incredibly successful. It's just another example of how do you go ahead...And not everybody can make a movie, I get it. But although I've seen some good copycats over the last six months or the last year, it's coming. It's getting out there. But, Clark Valberg, this is yours. Valberg this is yours. It was a really powerful vehicle for us. Naber: Nice. Very good. And so you talked about adding value beyond your product. You talked about focusing on behaviours and activities. You talked about some of the activities. And you talk about hiring your first layer of management. You talk about hiring coaches, and not managers. Can you explain a little bit about that? Ryan Burke:     Yeah, I just feel like early, early days you just, you need folks that are, they're not about coming in as a manager for title reasons. And you get people in there that are really good at coaching because that's what is so critical. Using those leading indicators, using those behaviours and activities, finding those opportunities to help coach the team. And that's why your first Sales Director, or whatever it might be, they've gotta be a really good coach. Because it's gonna be all about the failures, and the misses early on, and the objections, there's going to be so many objections you're gonna face, whether it's product, price, competitors, whatever it is. Like you really need to figure out how do you coach the team on overcoming those. And so that's why it's really important from a profile perspective that you really dig in when you're interviewing in terms of, talk me through, talk me through an example of where you identified something with a rep, and coached them through it to an improvement. What was the result? Those types of things are really important when you're building that Foundational team. Naber: Nice. Awesome. Okay. So that's that's the First Five, then we just talked about Foundation. Now let's talk about Future. Ryan Burke:     Yeah, and the only other thing that I'll mention on the Foundation, now that you're kind of bringing up the topic, which is just one of the things that we did that was interesting at InVision, was it's so important to understand your customer and like everything about their customer. This evolves at every stage. And so, early on, like I hired one. And so I hired a designer onto our team instead of a Sales Engineer. I hired a designer, this person came on boards, still with the company, he's great, but just gave that credibility to the Sales team in terms of the day in the life of what a designer deals with. And could hop on calls and give us some credibility in terms of talking to designers, which is a very unique persona to sell to. They don't like to be sold to. They want to touch and feel the product, learn about it, and then use it, and if they like it they'll tell their friends about it. So, figuring out who your customer is and then hiring them was really important. The other thing that we do now, which is an interesting kind of nuance is around understanding the customer. We now have a program called delicious empathy. And every person at InVision anywhere, again, fully distributed company, we have people all over the world, and anybody at the company from Operations, to Sales, to Finance, has the ability to take a designer out to dinner once a month and expense it. And the only rule is you're not allowed to talk about InVision. And so it's just about, again, building those relationships, understanding the motivations, the personal motivations even of your customers. And that just feeds into everything that we believe in and do as a company. And so that's been another kind of interesting thing for us to do across the company to help people build empathy with our customers. Naber: Yeah. Yeah. It's great. You call it, I think you call it relentless focus on the customer. It's a pretty cool example. Delicious empathy. I love the Pun. Delicious, as in, take you out to dinner, that's good. I'm not usually a laggard on the jokes, that was a good one. Le's talk about Future. so you talk about a Foundation for building the Future. Go ahead. Ryan Burke:     Yeah. So the Future is, I feel like, at this point, this is where, you built the Foundational team, you've got some infrastructure in place, you're moving into the Enterprise. Like this is when things will break. Like things are gonna start to break. And you've got to kind of revisit the overall customer journey. You've got to revisit the friction points as you move into the Enterprise, things like legal process, security, all of those are going to be new friction points that you're going to have to learn how to address. And this is also, in a lot of cases, this is also when you make that shift from a transactional product-focused sale to the value-based one. And that's when you've got to hire a different profile of Salesperson at this stage. You've got to have all your motion at this stage. And so, now is kind of when you're, when you're really selling, and you've got to get people that are, again, stewards of your brand. Along all of this, your brand is so important these days that just, I think people sometimes underestimate the impact of hiring the wrong Salesperson on their brand. And like, you gotta think about is this somebody that you would want in a room with 15 of your prospects, your customers? Would the be someone you would want presenting at a community event on behalf of your brand? And if the answer is no, they're probably not the right person. Even if they're the best seller in the world because they are representative of your brand. And you've got to create that value through your Salespeople and that represents the value that you want to project in your brand. That's really important. And the other part about this stage is you've got to find people that are really good storytellers. And that's so important. Can they tell a story? Because at this point, people don't really care about your product. Like this is when the transition switches on the customer side as well. They don't care about your product. They care about what the promise of your product can deliver. They care about the results, they care about the examples of what other customers have done to drive tangible business value from the product. And so there's that shift, and this is where you don't need the product experts in the Sales team. And this is where you can introduce things like Sales Engineers, or Product Specialists, or whatever it is to fill some of those technical gaps. But this is where you need people that can actually tell that story and sell the dream of what your products and more importantly what your brand represents. And that's really important at this stage as you kind of build out the team. Naber: Nice. Okay, so I want to hop onto a different topic or anything else you want to talk about before we conclude on that? Ryan Burke:     No, I think that's good. Naber: Okay, cool. I've got two more topics I want to talk about and then we'll wrap. First one is, hiring, onboarding, and managing, remote Sales teams, and really remote workforces are what you guys have to manage as an entire business. But specifically hiring, onboarding and managing remote Sales teams. So there are a few different things that I'd like to cover. I think there's five in total. First one is hiring profile and hiring execution. How do you search for the right person that is a great person to hire as a remote employee. What are some of the things you look for in making sure that they can do that? And then what's your execution process look like considering you're hiring people all over the world, you're not necessarily sourcing them in one city or one industry. You're looking for them all over the place. So what's the hiring profile and how do you execute on the hiring process? Ryan Burke:     Yeah, and I think we are the single largest fully remote company in the world now. It's a little crazy. There's definitely cracks at times and things. And just a little, a little bit of context. It started where our CEO wanted to hire the best engineering talent. So we started to hire folks in different places. Even when I started, he was like, Hey, if you want us to open up a Boston Sales office, you can. And I did the whole tour of real estate in Boston, and almost pulled the trigger, but then it just in part of our culture. And so we started to hire some people from all over, and you could kind of place people strategically in these maybe lower-tier markets, or whatever. And so it became really, really, valuable for us. And it's a big asset. On the hiring, you've got to find people, not everybody is ready for it. The last person you want is the person that found you on a remote job site, and you ask them what they like about InVision, and they say, oh, I want to work from home. Like, they're out. You do need to find people that are proactive. Like you need to find people who seek help because sometimes it's hard, and you can get lost or and you can hide. And you've got to find those folks that are very proactive in their approach and sort of ask questions around that in in the interview process. That's really important. But the biggest thing in one of the biggest lessons we have learned here is onboarding. Onboarding is so critical because it can be very intimidating your first day sitting there and not having anybody to talk to. And so we've evolved our onboarding process, pretty dramatically over the last couple of years to, we kind of map out everybody's first 90 days now. And they need to know exactly who they're talking to, exactly what they should be focused on, exactly what the expectations are. And we can still improve that. But even from things like time management, like I think there are still opportunities for us to improve there, especially for some of the younger folks that come in. And they're living with four other buddies in San Francisco, or they're off on their own somewhere, wherever, and they get up in the morning like, how do I spend my day? And so we're getting a lot more prescriptive in terms of just even time management training. And what percentage of the time per week should they be focused on these types of things? What percentage of the times did we focus on these things? Even like learning and development. And so the onboarding process is something that it's just so critically important for a remote team, and there are still opportunities to improve, but I think we're doing a pretty good job now. Naber: Nice one. So you just talked about hiring profile and some of the things that you need to assess to make sure someone's ready for that. You've talked about time management. And you also just talked about

Guest: Daniel Dackombe - Head of Sales, EMEA & LATAM @Mixpanel (Formerly @LinkedIn) Guest Background: Dan is the Head of Sales, EMEA & LATAM @Mixpanel (Series B, $865M Valuation, $77M Raised), where is leading Mixpanel's rapid expansion into EMEA & LATAM markets.  Prior to Mixpanel, Dan was at LinkedIn as Global Sales Director - Search & Staffing focused on growth and strategy of the Search and Staffing vertical globally. Prior to this, during his 8 years at LinkedIn, Dan built, managed, and led the Search & Staffing vertical expansion throughout EMEA from scratch to a 9-digit ARR business w/ over 150 employees. Guest Links: LinkedIn Episode Summary: In this episode, we cover: - The EMEA B2B SaaS Playbook: Market Selection, GTM Considerations - Compete AND Compliment- The New Fragmented Market Reality for Sales - Hiring Profile Tips - Sales Reps & Sales Managers - Global vs. Regional Leadership - Influence, Focus, Consistency vs. Flexibility Full Interview Transcript: Naber:  Hello friends around the world. My name is Brandon Naber. Welcome to The Naberhood, where we have switched on, fun discussions with some of the most brilliant, successful, experienced, talented and highly skilled Sales and Marketing minds on the planet, from the world's fastest-growing companies. Enjoy! Naber:  Hey everybody. Today we have Dan Dackombe on the show. Dan is the Head of Sales, EMEA & LATAM @Mixpanel (Series B, $865M Valuation, $77M Raised), where is leading Mixpanel's rapid expansion into EMEA & LATAM markets.  Prior to Mixpanel, Dan was at LinkedIn as Global Sales Director - Search & Staffing focused on growth and strategy of the Search and Staffing vertical globally. Prior to this, during his 8 years at LinkedIn, Dan built, managed, and led the Search & Staffing vertical expansion throughout EMEA from scratch to a 9-digit ARR business w/ over 150 employees. Here we go. Naber:  Double D, Dan Dackombe. Awesome to have you on the show. How are you this morning? Daniel Dackombe:         I'm well. I'm well. Thanks, Brandon. Naber:  You've got your go-to tee shirt on. You're ready to rock in the morning and had your cup o'tea. I'm loving it. Hey, what I think we'll do in our chat, go through some personal stuff first, and talk a little bit about you growing up. What Dan Dan was as a kid. And we'll go through some of the decisions you made as a kid, and what you were like. And then ultimately, go through the bulk of where we'll spend our time, which is professional stuff. Sound okay? Daniel Dackombe:         Sounds great. Naber:  Awesome. All right, let's start with Dan Dackombe as a kid. So Crawley, England, I could have said that horribly, with the American accent. Totally understand that. However, Crawley, England, believe you grew up there. What were you, what was Dan Dackombe like, as a kid? What were you interested in? And what were some of your hobbies and things that you were doing when you were younger? Daniel Dackombe:         Oh, man. Yeah. So, I'm the oldest of three. Two younger brothers. Yeah, my parents divorced when I was about 12, and they both started another family each. So there are five brothers all in all basically. Which is, which is pretty cool. So I'm the oldest of five really. I was, I was pretty intense. My Dad was a rugby guy, so I played a lot of rugby growing up. So yeah, I'm not great at the kind of default, what's your favourite football team? I kind of have to take a bit of a back step in terms of my credibility around anything regarding football, more of a rugby guy growing up. I boxed through it while I really enjoyed that for a few years. But yeah, I was a pretty social guy, pretty social kid. I was, I was always...and this is quite an interesting dynamic actually because I've thought about a lot of these ideas. I was always the worst kid, in the top class. Okay, and so what that basically meant...And that has kind of scarred me and blessed me. Take sports. I remember being on again, my son's 14, so this is really like...I remember being 14, 15 in the cross country race. So you imagine a freezing cold, February morning in the UK, frost on the ground, and there being a big line of in my mind, giant 15-year-olds. And there'd be like, me, and I always got smashed. So I'd always be like, maybe not last in the top group, but I definitely went the champion jog. And so I was always frustrated that I'd worked hard enough to get to the top group, but I was never kind of capable in that sense. And likewise, academically, I always found I did pretty well at school. I wasn't the most gifted, but I was always in top sets, but I wasn't one of these people that were crazy naturally gifted. I had to revise really hard. And so, I think a lot of that translates to both, I think what helps set me up for future success, but probably also like, it has caused a lot of the scarring and imposter syndrome that we all kind of face. Maybe it'd be different if I was in the one class down and like, the top kid there. Yeah, it was great. I was, I enjoyed growing up with where I lived, had a whole bunch of friends I'm still in touch with. Probably half a dozen of them. You don't see someone for a year, two years, three years, and then you catch up in a bar or pub and telling the same mom jokes, or talking about the time that someone did something stupid. And you know what man, we just been repeating these stories for like 30 years. It's nice to maintain those types of relationships. Naber:  Oh, that's great. That's good, that's a really good start. You got me smiling a lot over here. It's great. And you always do. Okay, so, two more questions. What was the first thing you did to make money? Daniel Dackombe:         Yeah, I mean I've always had a pretty good work ethic. And so I worked from a pretty young, I mean I did like, standard, paper rounds at a young age, gardening work. My first actual employment I worked, cleaning the cars on the four court, on early, early Saturday mornings. So that when people are out looking at new vehicles, they can go in and again the cars don't look like they're covered in crap. But this was a show that was right in the middle of an industrial estate, right next to this great big dual carriageway. So I used to come into work every Saturday when these cars were like rotten. I was like, I gotta clean every single one of these calls again. It used to kill me. I just think maybe like, I don't understand how they get so written off. So I did that probably 14 or so. But yeah, I spent a lot of time, doing construction jobs. My Dad was a construction guy, ran his own companies. I mean, you wouldn't do it now. I mean, I would probably be, yeah, my first salaried wage. I could have been maybe 15, maybe 16, and you'd be working in a building site in central London. He'd like dropped me off. I mean he dropped me deep in. And so talking about learning confidence. And building relationships with like, grown men who are kind of in the construction stage, and I'm like 16. And my dad was the boss and no one knew this. So basically, I was the boss's son. He would drop me off, and at the end of the week. I'd meet him in the pub, as you do when you're 16. And everyone would be like, Oh man, you know...I'm like, that's my dad and all of these guys be like, oh man, we've been bossing this kid around for a week, and this is the boss's son. I, I've got a whole bunch of stories I can probably tell you in the pub about my time doing that sort of thing. But yeah. So I've done some different jobs and worked from a pretty young age. Naber:  The things that folks have done when they were younger that they don't think are that fascinating, or just normal, are fascinating to a lot of other people. So you're saying that you worked for your dad's construction company, you just got dropped off and then picked up. That sounds a crazy, interesting scenario for many people that didn't have that as their normal day to day as they're growing up. So maybe it doesn't come to mind, for you or for the folks that are talking on this on our show a lot, but it's really fascinating. That's really cool. It probably, I mean it forms and shapes you. Daniel Dackombe:         Totally, I mean I've got a really vivid image in my mind. Bearing in mind this would probably be early to mid-nineties. So it wasn't quite deep in the eighties, but there was still that 80s hangover of music, what people wore. And so the work that we did was a lot of, like, data centres and dealing floors. And so basically just as the trading community began to really digitize their business, and they used to have big data centres basically, that's what my dad did. He built out trading floors and data centres. So all of my work would be in the city. Okay, so you'd be all of these companies that had been doubling down on technology. And so I remember being in a bar in the city and there was like, two divides. I mean on one half of the bar you had all of these construction dudes, and on the other half, you just have all these traders. You know, handmade suits. And it was really interesting for me too because it was like, hey I'm here, but it baked this aspirational, I want to be on the other side of the bar, and I want to be with the traders crowd. Those are the guys that are drinking bottles of champagne, and you know all of the builder guys were pretty dismissive about them. And I kind of was looking at them in a fairly, sort of aspirational way. Like yeah, at some point I'm going to be, I'm going to be that guy on the other side of the bar. Naber:  I love that. Cool. That obviously shaped your mentality for a long time. Great Story. All right. So, you're making decisions about where to, about where to go to school. You head over to University of Surrey, in Guildford. Explain, why you went to University of Surrey, and then we'll hop through some of your first professional, gigs and up through, up through TotalJobs to LinkedIn. Daniel Dackombe:         Yeah, sure. I mean, I loved history and I loved...The A levels that I did, so I did English, I did history, and I did an early, what was called then, a media studies course. And in that media studies course, we studied a product and a principle called the information superhighway. Okay. And that was the first name of the Internet. So basically, I remember writing essays and stories and dissertations on potential outcomes and the impact that this would have in terms of like, they were really around personalization. I mean basically what we wrote about then, in terms of IoT and personalized content, seems so abstract because we didn't understand the hardware and the kind of infrastructure requirements, and that felt too advanced. If you can let go of the how you're going to make it happen, and kind of focus on the what, it becomes quite inspirational. So, so I did that. So I applied for two types of colleges. My number one choice was, nautical archaeology in North Wales. Okay. So my life could have been very different. Then the other piece, so the Surrey course was a BSc in media production and business. And so it was all in documentary making, filmmaking, radio shows, graphic design, web design and business around that. So a lot of my pals from college went on to do some sort of media production based job. And I, yeah, I mean, I loved it. It was great. It's a great course. It was really practical. I didn't really apply myself I think as well as I could've done. I think I did the classic, straight from high school, did A levels that were pretty intense. Then straight from there went to college, and at that point, I was just like, I wasn't there with a purpose apart from kind of having fun really. Yeah. It was a, it was a great course. Made some great friends there. Still in touch with those guys. And yeah, really, really enjoyed my time there, but it was mainly focused around media production and business. Naber:  Nice one. Awesome. All right, so you're leaving Surrey, you're getting into your first gig out of school. Walk us through the first few gigs you had a school and take us up through the end of TotalJobs, and then we'll talk about your jump into LinkedIn. Because we'll spend the bulk of our time in LinkedIn and Mixpanel and talking about a few of your superpowers and going through some mindset and method on some of the things that I know that, one, you're really passionate about, and two, that you're really good at. Daniel Dackombe:         Yeah. So, I mean, I didn't know exactly what I wanted to do when I left college. The career track if you want to kind of continue some type of media production based job is that effectively you leave college and try to effectively get an apprenticeship or an internship. And I just was too impatient for that. And to be frank, I needed the money. And I couldn't wait around, in terms of what I wanted to do in my life, and where I wanted to go. And so, I struggled. The idea of kind of like, dragging myself up into central London, to work for some sort of media production - pre or post-production business - for almost minimal wage with a view that at the end of a period of time they may or may not offer you a job. I was like, man, I don't know if I've kind of got that in me. And so I'll paint for you because it gives you a nice snapshot of the times. So I was in a pub smoking cigarettes. Back in the days when I used to smoke cigarettes and back in the days when you could smoke in a pub. I'm reading the Guardian, which is a pretty left-wing paper, back in the days when I was fairly left-wing. And it had hundreds of pages of job adverts, and this is pre job board, so the technology of job-seeking was sitting in a pub looking at a newspaper, which kind of suited me quite well. And there was an advert in the back of this newspaper saying, are you a graduate? Do you earn 30,000 pounds a year? I was like, yeah, that's an easy take on those two. Circle. I'll go and grab another beer. And basically dragged myself up to London for an interview. I had a phone interview, go invited it up for a second interview, and walked into this place that was basically a massive contract publishing business. And they had like two hundred people, on this huge Salesfloor. There was a huge amount of energy. There's a huge amount of fun going on. I used to get paid weekly in cash, which was hilarious. It was just a real boiler room basically. And basically the end of that first year, I was the number one Salesperson. I'd paid off my student loans, I'd bought a car, and I'd bought my first flat in my first year. And so basically, I used to get paid weekly in cash. I was living on my Dad's sofa at the time because I came out of college and I was like, I needed to get into London. My Dad worked in London. And I was like man, I'll just bunk up with you for some time. And that was it. The Sales bug, you're hit man as soon as you start moving into that world. So I did that for a couple of years, beginning of the .com boom. Headhunted for an Inside Sales role. Went over, joined that company, and that company went on and was rebranded to coming from Stepstone. And I stayed there for a number of years, moved into my first leadership role, managed a pretty big team there. So I moved on to managing probably 18 people. And then literally the DOTCOM bubble burst, share price completely tanked, we had to fire half the people. I kind of walked away from there being completely disillusioned with management and leadership because I just personally found it so hard. I left there, pretty bruised, to be honest, I'd kind of gone through a pretty tough time prior to me leaving there. Had burn out periods, took a couple of months off. And in many ways that's actually one the best things that happened to me because that has really helped me sort of, mediate and moderate my own thinking around work. Mental health in the workplace is another topic that I'd love to talk about. But maybe that's another, another topic for another time. Went over to TotalJobs, which was basically the digital division of RBI, a large publishing business owned by Reed Elsevier, a global FTSE business, Anglo-dutch company. Went to their digital division. Started off as a Field Sales guy. I'd spent, up to that point, I'd been an Inside Sales guy and Inside Sales Manager. Managed a team, then managed two teams, managed the channel team and the advertising agency and RPO team. So moved up the ranks there every period of time, had great fun. They're highly, highly competitive. Highly in the UK. So kind of learned a lot around just operating as effectively as you could against the backdrop of peak competition. And then really the big change for me at that point, I was then headhunted again by LinkedIn to basically be their first EMEA Enterprise Sales Manager. So I was responsible for and launched the UK business. And there's, there's a whole other chapter to follow on after that, I guess. Naber:  Excellent. So that's your jump into LinkedIn, first role at LinkedIn. So, let's pause there for a minute. You were at TotalJobs for eight years. I mean that's a long, long time. What were one or two things that were the biggest things that you learned that you took with you throughout your career from TotalJobs? And then we'll hop into your roles at LinkedIn and I've got some specific questions around your superpowers there. Daniel Dackombe:         Yeah, so I think, key lessons learned, there were one, around the importance of short term execution. This was a business that would operate with pretty strict deadlines. And so as opposed to the kind of annual quota philosophy, there was almost a monthly execution. And I think that created a good sense of kind of both urgency, and then how do you kind of manage a team to kind of operate so that there's like, twelve billings periods as opposed to one or even four. And so I would say that was definitely one of one of the key pieces. And then, actually the back end of my time there, the global credit crunch had really just started. And so actually it was a really, the year before I left, it was actually really quite tough. And basically we got to the point whereby if a bunch of headcount we'd removed from the business. And we were down to right, this is the skeleton crew that we need to run. But if we don't hit the following financial milestones, further cuts will need to be made. And I was quite transparent about that with my teams. I was like, look, this is where we are with it. And so I guess out of that adversity came a belief around the importance of honesty, transparency, authenticity, and then how the team then galvanized. And basically, you would get to a point whereby at the end of every month or the end of every quarter people were working for each other, working for a particular cause. And I come on to this, but I've always believed people work better for a cause than the company. And that cause for us at that time was like, we don't want to lose anyone from our team. And so, those were, I would say, the urgency of the billing, but then also the importance of galvanizing a team around a particular mission. Even if at that point that mission was pretty negative. But it still showed me the importance of relationships, and how to lead through adversity. And those, I would say probably the two things that really stand out. Naber:  That's great. Okay. So you jumped into LinkedIn, you're headhunted into LinkedIn. You've talked about what you're responsible for in your first role, so jump through maybe in two minutes, the responsibilities you had in that first role again, and then through your jump from Mixpanel and just run us through what you're doing at LinkedIn and what you're responsible for. And then we can jump into a couple of topics. Daniel Dackombe:         Yeah, sure. Okay. So, I mean, there were 30 people in the UK, probably no even many, 20 people in the UK. Maybe 50 people, not even 50 people in Dublin. There's now what, 3000 people in Dublin? So, one of the early guys. I spent my first six months literally interviewing, I think I did 133 face to face interviews in my first year at LinkedIn. Literally, I was just focused on building just building the best team I possibly could. And so we built a team of, 18 Enterprise AE's. And we covered the UK market at that point because we had no other Sales functions outside of the UK covering EMEA. My guys would also cover particular geographical territories. So I remember at one point, you had people covering like, all of public sector UK and the Middle East. You look at LinkedIn now, and you look at how many people are employed in those two sectors, I mean, it's hundreds. So, it's that greenfield opportunity, which in itself brings a number of challenges around prioritization. And so yeah, my first year was building up Enterprise AE team, and then help to launch a number of different offices. I helped hire the guys that and onboarded the guys in Sweden who ran our Nordic office. We opened the Paris office and helped with the training and support in getting that office up and running. The UK RM business was launched that point as well. And so, the business really started to kind of build, and grow, and scale-out. So my first year was around hiring, building, specifically focused around the Enterprise AE space. Moving into the second year, I then managed Senior Enterprise AE's. And so there was, those were guys that...we had different gradients of Enterprise AE's. And then also managed our first kind of efforts in regards to channel and partnership program, in terms of both re-sellers and lead referral program. That was, that was really interesting to see that, and there's a whole bunch of challenges around that. By then, started to diversify the Sales team to be focused on different verticals. And that kind of moves us into my third year at LinkedIn had the opportunity to put together a business case for a specific vertical and then spend the next four years building that business up in EMEA. And built that essentially from scratch to over 200 people, 163 million ARR, 12-13,000 customers, 33% growth year on year. Even bigger than that obviously, in the first few years. And then that took me to my last role at LinkedIn, which was effectively a global overlay role for that entire vertical. A fantastic opportunity. But those are, I guess, the the main broad chapters of my time at LinkedIn. Naber:  When you were at LinkedIn, and now at Mixpanel you've built out a playbook for building an EMEA-wide B2B SasS go-to-market strategy and plan. And you've done this over the years, you've iterated on it, and then you've obviously you added on the global remit you had at your later stage of being at LinkedIn. Let's talk about that playbook for building an EMEA-wide B2B SaaS go to market strategy and plan. So, I'd love to hear a couple of different pieces of it for the audience so they can hear how you think about it. So a couple of pieces being building strategy, selecting markets and when to start to expand into them, building product and enhancements to product, and then ultimately team and building out the structure and timing of your team - physical geography as well as hiring, managing them. So let's go through building strategy. So if you're thinking about building an EMEA-wide B2B SaaS go-to-market strategy, how do you think about building out the strategy and building out the market selection that you're going to then go execute on? Daniel Dackombe:         Yeah, so I think I would start off by thinking around, it's a case of having, you start off from directional confidence. And I think, at this early stage, getting to a point where you are 80% comfortable and confident in the decisions that you're making, is really how you need to operate. And so some people say, oh, you have to get comfortable being uncomfortable. And I think that's BS, because the nature of being uncomfortable is, it is uncomfortable. But my interpretation of that is you've got to be comfortable with being 80% confident, and it's okay to kind of...Because actually, the time it takes to get to the point of 100% confidence is actually dead time most of the time in a kind of scale-up phase, well, I guess I'm talking about both start-up and scale-up. And so in terms of that directional confidence, you look at really just triangulating a number of different data points. And those are both hard and soft data points. And so, those could be things like, do you have an existing customer base? Do you have an existing user base? Do you have an existing user base from customers who are billed outside that particular geography? So whether you're a consumer business or a B2B business, understanding where is the traction that's currently, in the product, that's currently being made. If there's an associated user base to it, what is does the user base look like? What are the growth rates geographically for each of those sectors? Have you got companies that are growing far quicker than some other sectors? The other pieces of information you'd probably overlay on top of that is looking at the existing customer base in terms of, are there any characteristics within that, in terms of company size, company type, industry? And so I guess it's a case of, really looking at all of the various different data points that you've got available to you in terms of what you understand about your products, the product-market-fit, and also the individual psyche of the marketplace that you want to sell into, and their ability to buy the products. And I think that's actually quite often overlooked, and it's quite often overlooked from a cultural perspective, certainly with North American, West Coast technology companies. And so I'll give you, I'll give you two examples of that. So number one, when we launched in EMEA if you looked at LinkedIn, one of the proxies we used for potential success was, well, how engaged is a particular geographical region in regards to LinkedIn.com? And the assumption we made on that was we'll actually if there's significant traction on LinkedIn.com we think we can sell the concept of that audience to people within a particular geography. So, for example, we had a high degree of engagement amongst members within Denmark, But actually the notion of direct sourcing and headhunting from your competitors from a cultural perspective, was something that actually locally in Denmark is like, really, that's not the case now but certainly 10 years ago, whatever, the principle of direct sourcing kind of from an ethical perspective was something that they were uncomfortable with. So unless you happen to know that, a bunch of decisions could be made in North America based around data, in terms of wow, okay we've run an algorithm based on penetration of membership, growth of online Sales agent within the product. We've identified Denmark as a top-four market EMEA. But actually, the reality of that is there are cultural blockers to that particular product that we weren't aware of. So another practical example of that as well, is you can have a customer that in principle looks they should really use the product. But actually, when you dig into the particular persona of that company, do they actually have the capabilities of using the product? And so, I find that in lots of technology companies or lots of technology that I've sold to, you can have on paper a company that looks the perfect persona that you should sell into, but actually, they've got no evidence of purchasing similar products before in the past. They've got no evidence of being a pro-technology company in terms of the investments they make. And in addition to that, from an organizational point of view, they didn't have someone internally that's the right person to use the product. So, an organizational understanding and sector understanding should be one of those data points that you kind of look at now. So you go back to my original point of like, directionally accurate. If you took the Nordic region and kind of made a series of assumptions, you're like, okay, yeah, we believe that that is a market that we want to be kind of going after. That is a core market for us. And effectively the way that I would categorize EMEA would be, what are your kind of core and emerging markets? And have a framework around how you define what your core markets are based on a bunch of data points that you triangulate to basically create an algorithm and a scoring mechanism. And then you can have a bunch of core and non-core markets. You then orientate Sales teams around those core markets with a percentage of their time focused on non-core markets that when they reach a particular tipping point, you kind of pull them into the fold and put more of a focus on them. Naber:  That's great. Thanks so much, Dan. This is a good transition and segue. As you started to think about it within your playbook, building out those teams, what's your mindset for hiring in EMEA in general? And then maybe even any regional nuances that you know that you need to go through, or process changes you need to have, or mindset shifts you need to have. Let's start with reps and then we can go to Frontline Managers. So as I'm starting to hire out my first few reps, within my Sales team. How do I think about going about doing that within my playbook? Daniel Dackombe:         Yeah, so I think one of the key things to think about is who do you need for the job that you need right now? And I think some of the mistakes that I've made before in the past is I've hired people that are the people that you would need in three years time. And so for me, I think, there's a whole bunch of challenges in selling technology now because companies have changed the way in terms of how they buy technology now. Technology purchasing has been, in many ways, it's been democratized by the employee. And so if you look at companies Slack as an example, you can have a company that's got 5,000 slack users, and they're not an official Enterprise customer of Slack. You've just got an employee base using a product. So you've got, companies now buy technology through individuals, through departments, and then at an Enterprise level. And so I guess the part of you understanding your own go to market strategy of, are you trying to go in at an Enterprise level? And is it a major infrastructure project? Or is it a rip and replace a competitor? Or is it land and expand? And so depending on your approach on how you want to go take a product to market, who your audience is, and the channel in how you want to introduce your products to that company, really depends then upon the type of persona, or personality, or experience of the person that you're looking for. So just being conscious of that I think is probably the first thing to think about. Off the back of that, you can then start to build out a whole bunch of skill sets and characteristics around what it is that you're actually looking for. I think one of the key considerations now is if you look at the backdrop against cloud computing and really the commoditization of every sector. If you look at, any business now needs to think about, okay, in three years time we will have five times more competitors. And all competing for the same budget, with the same decision-makers. And so, the very notion of that means the persona of someone that you need to be able to operate against that backdrop is really different. And so that's definitely something that I kind of think a lot about. And so the ability for people to then, be able to build relationships and network with an organization, help create consensus around how a decision is made, is key. The case of like, I'm going to try and sell to the CEO because he's the decision-maker, those days are gone. People don't buy like that anymore. Companies don't buy like that anymore. And so there's a whole different set of skills that you need from people in terms of their softer skills, their ability to market, their ability to communicate about how your product both compete and compliments their existing technology stack in the sector, is key as well. Customers, by the way, won't even know this. If you go look at, I don't know, the Sales industry as an example. Five years ago you had LinkedIn Sales Navigator and a couple of other pieces of technology maybe. When you look at that sector now, I mean there are literally dozens of players doing dozens of different jobs there. And if you look at marketing, jeez, I mean that's an even crazier marketplace. And so your ability to be able to articulate, to a customer who themselves may not fully appreciate all of these different pieces of kit, and how you can either complement, enhance what they've already bought, or actually how you can compete and say, Hey, I don't think you need these other three vendors because we can do the following things. And so that mindset and that skillset are different. So what you've got to be able to do to be able to identify...a, have an awareness of that. B, be able to work out what are the skills and the behaviours that you need to be able to do that. So there's a good book, The Sales Acceleration Formula by Mark Roberg is a great book around, scaling business. He's one of the early guys at HubSpot, and I actually think that's a really super practical book. So I definitely recommend reading that. For me, two things that stand out that I always look for - You've got grit and curiosity. And grit is to execute with passion and perseverance over time. Intellectual curiosity, someone is genuinely...I talk about this technology sector because I'm genuinely interested in trying to understand why are customers buying the products they're buying? What is it they're trying to do? And how can you help that? And then the ability to be able to articulate and communicate the reasons as to why you think your value proposition makes sense. Naber:  Awesome. So let's say I'm building out my first Frontline team. I've built out my reps, I'm hiring for the job I need now. I'm thinking about how they need to build relationships, build consensus, communicate internally around how the product competes, enhances and compliments within the market. And then I've hired against grit, curiosity, and communication. Now I need to build out my Frontline Managers. What's your mindset, some of the methods you use for hiring Frontline Managers? Daniel Dackombe:         I'm a fan of the core, strategic, and venture kind of methodology. Where you take a particular topic, and things that are core to that you assign 70% or seven out of 10, strategic is two out of 10, and venture is one of 10, 10% whatever you make to look at it. And so I think, for me, for a Frontline Manager, if you take the notion of, the science and the art of that. It's almost like, right, what are the core attributes, what are the strategic, and what are the venture? So what are the must-haves, nice- to-haves, and it would be good if but that is not as important? And so you're never gonna find somebody ticks the box on all of those things. There's always gonna be trade-offs. What are you not going to trade off on? One hasn't got or illustrates the following things, they're just simply are no. And that's across the two sectors of the science and art of management and leadership. So for me, it's having an under having a selection framework where you feel you're clear on exactly what the key skills and attributes are that you're looking for. Having an understanding or an appreciation of where you have a level of flexibility on that, and where you don't, are some of the key things. And actually taking the time to really go through that process in a pretty data-driven way, in terms of making sure is there a scoring mechanism against these things. Looking at other performers in the business who are doing really well, and how can you benchmark them against that particular person. And then also, hiring a leader for the role that you need now, and that you need in probably the next 24 months to 36 months are the key things. People talk about over hiring, and I think that's a good point, but if you overhire someone who has been a Frontline Manager, but then spent the last five years as a VP of Sales, and then you want to drop them back into a Frontline Sales Manager role because they've got lots of experience, that doesn't work out. Because actually what you need them to be able to do is to have the appetite and the energy to focus on the core nucleus functions of a Frontline Manager, which involves deep level forecasting, deal coaching. So, who do you need to do the best job right now is one of the most fundamental questions I think you need to ask yourself, separate Frontline Leaders. Naber:  Yup. Got It. Excellent. So we've covered a lot of the different pieces of the playbook than that you've built out, especially when you started at TotalJobs, built out even more expansively when you're at LinkedIn, now that you're Mixpanel. We've talked a lot about some of those pieces around building strategy, market selection, team and hiring across the different levels that you need to hire at. One more thing that I want to talk about is the difference between - and we talked about building these teams within EMEA - a lot of your mindset sounds globally applicable. However, I know that you have been in roles where you've had a global remit and managing teams that are in EMEA, both at the same time as well as consecutively. So can you talk a little bit about some of the best practices that change when you are managing a regional team in EMEA versus managing on a global remit? Daniel Dackombe:         Yeah, so I mean, I, I would say, so I would say having a clear set of expectations around what are the objectives, goals, and KPIs around the global piece of the job. And don't underestimate how difficult it is to influence and implement a global-wide initiative. And so I think, some of the things when you think about from a global basis, I think you've got to change your mindset in terms of, if you're a hands-on Frontline Manager or even regional Director, you're personally in the region, you've got a management team, you may not be on the Frontline with your reps or even front line Managers, but you've got people that are within touchable distance from you. I think when you were then thinking about, well actually if there's an international organization, you're relying on and going to be working with a whole bunch of people across different continents, different geographies, different roles. And so managing and leading through influence becomes then a completely different kind of skillset. And I think the advice I would give on that is, if you take on more than you can effectively deliver, you will fail. So say, this sounds crazy obvious, okay, we want to do three things. And people always say, pick one of them and do that really well. And then in the back of your mind, you're saying but all three of them need to be done. And so you kind of try and delegate two of them out, and whatever it may be. But I would have a clear set of expectations with whoever you're reporting into to make sure that you can identify, okay, this is the global initiative or global change that I want to put in place. And just have a far more thorough and intensive approach to that kind of either change management or implementation of that than you think you need to do. And then just when you think you're kind of there, double down on it. So really prioritizing, pick the one thing that's going to impact globally, and drive that. And then for the things that fall underneath that, you either need to be comfortable that you're going to park that for a period of time, or that you're going to allow that to be managed and interpreted in a different way across different regions. And so I think that was one of the things when you've got to a global overlay role, it's like, what are what's the systems, processes and methodologies that you want to see global consistency on. And actually, where do you want to ensure that you can encourage a more local dynamic approach. Naber:  Okay. That's a good time to talk about your jump into Mixpanel from LinkedIn. So why did you make the move to Mixpanel, and talk a little bit about what you're responsible for there. And then I've got two more topics and we'll wrap. Daniel Dackombe:         Yeah...I've got kind of like a Venn diagram answer to that question. And so effectively, the assessment process that I go through in regards to any opportunities. Number one, the first circle is like, is there a big enough macroeconomic backdrop driver that makes this product or company important enough to matter or viable enough? And if you look at the impact of industry 4.0, you look at the huge exponential growth around the app economy, you look through the digitalization that all companies are going through in terms of how their digital products are now their company. You talk to a financial institution, a major bank, their online experience for their customers is now no longer a nice to have, that is what their business is built around. So you've got these, this huge backdrop of industry 4.0, digitization, the applicant economy, consumer behaviour. It's never been easier for a consumer to switch any product. You look at how cloud computing has commoditized all industries and all sectors. There's basically this massive backdrop of opportunity around the digital economy. I've always been a big fan of, during the gold rush be the guy selling shovels, or pickaxes, or whatever. And so for me, that was a pretty big backdrop. The second piece is around, so how does the product that you're selling actually impact that major global trend? And so when I assessed Mixpanel, Mixpanel was already nine years old, 26,000 customers, 40% (four-zero) were based in EMEA and there were less than a half a dozen people in EMEA. You had companies from one person, digital-first companies in Finland, to major Enterprise companies in Turkey. And so you've got scalability of the product in terms of geography. You've got scalability of the product in terms of company size. And scalability of the company in terms of sector. And so that was the second piece for me. And then thirdly, it's around the people. And to be frank, this is more important, really, is around the people and the culture. Mixpanel has brought in a new CEO, a guy called, Amir Movafaghi. He's like, just one of the best leaders I've worked with, really inspirational. He's an ex-Twitter executive. He's was like the Mr Fix it at Twitter. He's an incredible leader to work for. And I believed in his vision of what he wanted to do to build and take the company to its next level. So those were the three criteria that I looked at in terms of assessing any opportunity. And for me, Mixpanel fits squarely in the middle of those three things. Naber:  Awesome. Okay. Just tell the audience what you're responsible for it Mixpanel, and then I've got two questions for you. Daniel Dackombe:         Yep. So, I'm basically the Director of international for EMEA and LATAM. So primary responsibility for building out the go-to-market teams in those two regions. I'm based in London, but we've just opened a new office in Barcelona, we've opened a new office in Paris, and we're opening in Amsterdam. Taking the team from when I joined at 10 people, to we've got a financial headcount plan for the end of the year, it'd be probably, 110, 115 people in EMEA alone. So 10x in the business in terms of headcount, and obviously trying to grow the revenue contribution pretty exponentially on top of that as well. So I'm at that early expansion phase. This year I've done a hundred interviews. We've now got ten AE's in the UK, four RM's. We've got 10 AE's in Barcelona, and four RM's. We've got a half dozen people across Amsterdam, and Paris. We've stood up an SDR team in Barcelona as well. We've got a whole bunch of pre- and post- technical Salespeople that we're introducing into the company. And so we're building the EMEA business from the ground up in terms of not just our Sales teams but all of the cross-functional partners that we need in place to be able to execute as well as we can. Naber:  Nice one. I love how your 10x'ing, the headcount this year. In three or four years from now, you and I are going to have a conversation about how early that sounded, and how early-stage that sounded for where you're going to be in three or four years. Okay, great. So thanks for that overview. And then the last topic I have is, let's talk about Mixpanel. What does Mixpanel do extremely well? That is a competitive asset because they're just excellent at it naturally. It's at the core of what they do. Daniel Dackombe:         Yes. I think there is an institutional belief and passion around what it is that we're trying to do and the impact that we are trying to have for our customers to help them be successful, to help them build better products, to help them operate against this backdrop of huge disruption that we see. And I think the passion and belief that runs right through this business is something that's both powerful and intoxicating, and absolutely a competitive advantage. So, belief in purpose, belief in the vision, and collective alignment around what it is that we're trying to do collectively creates a really powerful unified business. The power of the pack is the wolf, and the power of the wolf is the pack. This definitely, definitely feels like an aligned business. And that's one thing that is built by having good leaders in place, having a great vision, having a great mission, having a product team listens to customers. One of the things that we do better than any other company I've seen, this is the single best company that I've ever seen in regards to, how we truly listen to our customers and don't have this arrogant perception that we know better than what our customers want. And this is definitely a competitive advantage. Naber:  And what have you seen are some of the ways that the leaders in the business are making sure that you keep those core competencies? Daniel Dackombe:         Yeah, I mean it's kind of the notion of, to some extent it's the Jeff Wiener notion of Next Play. Whereas like, you don't allow your successes to become overly important, and you don't allow your losses to pull you down. If you think about ultimate performance is like a flat line, okay...that big spike up, the higher that spike up, the longer it takes to get back down to your optimal performance. If things go bad, and that drop falls through the ocean floor, it takes longer to get up to the optimal motion. So it's, recognize what you're doing well, be happy about it, move on. Something bad happens, learn from it. Don't do it again. Move on. And the quicker you can kind of go through that cycle - of celebration, recognition, learning, moving on, through to failing at something, learning from it, and then moving on - the quicker you can operate. Naber:  Hey everybody, thanks so much for listening. If you appreciated and enjoyed the episode, go ahead and make a comment on the post for the episode on LinkedIn. If you love The Naberhood Podcast, we'd love for you to subscribe, rate, and give us a five-star review on iTunes. Until next time - go get it.

Guest: David Katz - VP, Sales @Tessian (Formerly @Intercom, @Dropbox, @LinkedIn) Guest Background: David is the Vice President, Global Sales @Tessian - Tessian has raised $60m from legendary security investors like Sequoia and Accel and have over 150 employees located in New York, San Francisco and London. Prior to Tessian, David was the Senior Director, Global Sales & Customer Solutions @Intercom - Responsible for the Account Executive, Account Management, Sales Engineer and Customer Success teams (100+ people) Globally across the Americas, EMEA, and APAC. Before joining Intercom, David was the Director, Mid-Market & Enterprise Sales @Dropbox - Responsible for a regional direct sales team of more than 40 Mid-Market and Enterprise Account Executives working out of HQ (largest P&L globally).  Prior to Dropbox, David was Manager, Mid-Market Sales @LinkedIn. Guest Links: LinkedIn Episode Summary: In this episode, we cover: - The Art, Timing, & Tactical Guidance for Moving SaaS Upstream - Full-Stack Commercial Teams - Functional Hiring Best Practices - Team Prioritization & Effective Stakeholder Engagement - Mistakes, Lessons Learned, & The New Mindset - Talent = #1 Priority - Evaluating & Onboarding Top Talent Full Interview Transcript: Naber:  Hello friends around the world. My name is Brandon Naber. Welcome to The Naberhood, where we have switched on, fun discussions with some of the most brilliant, successful, experienced, talented and highly skilled Sales and Marketing minds on the planet, from the world's fastest growing companies. Enjoy! Naber:  Hey everybody. Today we have David Katz on the show, DKatz as he's lovingly known. David is the Vice President, Global Sales @Tessian - Tessian has raised $60m from legendary security investors like Sequoia and Accel and have over 150 employees located in New York, San Francisco and London. Prior to Tessian, David was the Senior Director, Global Sales & Customer Solutions @Intercom - Responsible for the Account Executive, Account Management, Sales Engineer and Customer Success teams (100+ people) Globally across Americas, EMEA, and APAC. Prior to Intercom, David was the Director, Mid-Market & Enterprise Sales @Dropbox - Responsible for a regional direct sales team of more than 40 Mid-Market and EnterpriseAccount Executives working out of HQ (largest P&L globally). Before Dropbox, David was Manager, Mid-Market Sales @LinkedIn. Here we go. Naber:  DKatz. Awesome to have you on the show. It's great to see your bearded face. How are you? David Katz:       I'm great, BNabes. And for those at home, you should also clarify what our full names are, although nicknames are great. I think I once called you just BNabes or even beautiful Nabes. Naber:  I dunno if you remember that. I mean that would've been, that's going pretty deep back into the archives of my history and memory. Naber:  Haha, that's pretty good. If you called me beautiful, first of all, I think I do remember you calling that, second of all, you may be the only person that's ever called me that. So if I don't remember, that's pretty bad cause that's an amazing story for myself. Thank you for that. Appreciate the confidence boost as we get started. And I'm just looking, I'm just looking to match your beard skills and your hairstyle. I feel like you've nailed the combo. I feel like you've really nailed the combo. David Katz:       So for those at home that are just listening to the audio, if you went and actually just googled David Katz at Tessian or found me on LinkedIn, you'd see this shiny bald head. And yeah, I mean when we worked together, I had some hair, but maybe one or two of the things we'll talk about is the high pressure environments I put myself in more recently that caused me to lose all said hair. But I say like, dude, this look without a beard and glasses to soften it up. Like, if you could imagine this, without glasses. I'll take them off so you can see and then imagine now, if you take those things away, you're getting into the Doctor Evil territory. And I don't know if that's necessarily all look that is inviting and encouraging of future conversations. So anyways, I appreciate that. Naber:  Yeah, it's an evolution. I'm sure that it feels right that Dr Evil is what you're moving towards in your life. But I'm sure you've perfected the morning routine pretty well with the head, the beard, the glasses. Like it's gotta be a pretty solid morning routine at that point. David Katz:       Less than five minutes. Naber:  Nice. Awesome. That's what I like to hear. Every, every guy wants to hear that. All right, so let's hop into a couple things. One, we'll go through some personal stuff first. Mr Smarty pants grew up in New Hampshire, went to Syracuse, some interesting history, interested in debate, and government, and voracious reader obviously, and I'm sure that started at a really young age. So we'll talk about all that fun stuff as a kid, what you were like, then we'll hop into the professional stuff, talk about some of your superpowers, talk about tech businesses you've worked with, and ultimately get into your superpower mindset as well as methodology, and some frameworks around some of the things you're really good at. Sound okay? David Katz:       Yeah, let's do it. Naber:  Awesome. let's start personal first. So 5,000 population town lake Winnipesaukee. I'm totally gonna screw up any one syllable that I'm sure. So, you grew up in that town. Let's talk about what was it like being DKatz as a kid? What were you interested in? And what were some of your hobbies and things you were good at growing up? David Katz:       I was a high energy and devious child, but not like in a malicious way. Like I wasn't getting arrested or lighting Barbie dolls on fire, per se. But I was a bit of a menace to society or to my teachers at least. I definitely was always pushing the boundaries of what I feel like I could get away with. And I feel like that's pretty much just continued throughout my entire life. Let's just see how far we can push this. And now I'm being penalized by having a two and a half year old that's doing the same thing. And what my mom used to tell me as a kid, whic is now coming true, which is, I hope you have a son just like you someday. For better, for worse, that's coming to fruition with my two and half year old. So yeah, I mean you said it, I grew up in a small town, 5,000 people. And it was an amazing, beautiful place to grow up. It just wasn't super diverse. Like there wasn't a lot of opportunity to be exposed to a lot of different things. It was a it was a very touristy environment that I grew up in. The population would grow by like 10x in the summer. People love to coming up to the lake. I mentioned to you earlier, Jimmy Fallon named his daughter after Lake Winnie, this lake I grew up on. It's just like a beautiful, nice, small town that kind of grew up on. But yeah, always interested in government, government affairs, and debate. I had this amazing teacher in high school, Mr Zoolof, who was very supportive and encouraging. I just felt a strong connection to. And, from taking classes with him, decided to really pursue a career in political science and public policy, or this thought I wanted to. So that's when I went to school for up in the upstate New York at Syracuse University. Naber:  Very cool. Shout out to Mr Zoolof off. I like that. So one more thing about, DKatz growing up. What were you interested in? What was the first thing you did to make money? Tell us a little bit more. David Katz:       Yeah. So, I was very interested in extreme sports growing up, or what I thought were extreme sports at the time. So it was a bit of a daredevil. I spent a lot of time in the emergency room. But I was very into freestyle skiing, wakeboarding, mountain biking, hiking, climbing, pretty much anything where I could lose a sense of gravity for some small period of time. I really enjoyed as a child. And it wasn't until my twenties where I started having real serious injuries that I didn't rebound from so quickly, and I decided maybe need to slow down. But yeah, I mean like I was a bit of a speed freak. I wanted to go, high and far in the air in whatever I was doing. So, outside of school and things I was interested in politics. I was really most first and foremost interested in just, thrill and just kind of chasing that feeling, as a kid. Naber:  Okay. So I have a hundred questions on that stuff, but we've got to move on so I won't indulge in my own curiosity. So you're going through high school, you're making a decision to go to, upstate New York, Syracuse University, The Orange, which I think is like one of 11 schools that have a mascot that don't end in "S", I believe, something like that. One of 10 or one of 11. We don't need to go through the trivia, but that's actually a fun trivia question. So why do you make that decision to go to Syracuse? Walk us through what you were like for a couple minutes while you were at Syracuse. David Katz:       Yeah, I mean, first and foremost, I didn't get into Georgetown, which was my number one. And I just, I didn't get it, and I was pretty bummed about that, honestly. I just really wanted to be in DC. I really wanted to be in that, that environment cause I really want to study political science and public policy. But I would say in hindsight, I was very fortunate that I didn't get in that I went to Syracuse. It was an incredible program that going to be part of, I met my future wife and mother of our son, and soon to be our second son. She's due literally any day now. And yeah, so it worked out for the best. One of the things that was really attractive to me about Syracuse was the curriculum for the public policy program was very hands on. It was actually a much less academic approach to learning. Most of the curriculum was made up of internships and kind of co-op style work. So you literally get thrown in the deep end. Even as early as being a freshman and a pimply faced 18 year old there I was working on different programs, like the Syracuse Housing Authority. And I'm getting to be involved in the community at a young age. Really kind of shaped the way I thought about learning and our education system more broadly, which is probably another topic for another time of things I'd like to do much, much later in life regarding education. It was just super hands on curriculum you actually got to get out there in the world and mix it up and meet people. But probably most importantly was, the Head of the Department Dr Bill Coplan, who I got to be a teaching assistant for, told me, I can't remember if I was either a junior or senior, he told me, he's like, Katz your wasting your time man. Like you're not, this isn't going to be a career. You're to be in Sales. And I've said this before in other podcasts, but I was like so offended by that. Because growing up in a small town in New Hampshire, I didn't know anything about Sales other than like the guy at the footlocker trying to sell me shoes, or like the guy selling my parents their car. That was my only in the sense of like what Sales was growing up. Naber:  Yeah. I always say that it's viewed as a dirty word often times. We're coming around as a society, especially in Western countries. But it's a bit of a dirty word as you're growing up. Yeah. David Katz:       And it was to me, certainly when I was a young student. But I'm fortunate that he did plant that seed and ended up coming to fruition years later. And I personally credit him for that. Naber:  Cool. Love it. And do you, what you don't say in that whole explanation is you were very good student. Obviously really intelligent, very obvious to people that have a conversation with you within seconds. So, you meet Shana, going through University, and you're gonna make your first decision on, what's next after uni. So why don't we do this. Walk us through. We're going to get up to LinkedIn. And then we're going to hop through LinkedIn, Dropbox, Intercom, and your recent move to Tessian. We're going to hop through those with some questions and going a little bit deeper on your playbook. But walk us through your decision out of school for the first job that you got, all the way through LinkedIn. and then we'll stop at LinkedIn and we'll pause for a couple of different things. I want to talk about that. David Katz:       Yeah, totally. So, coming out of uni as you said, and for the Americans, that also means college. But having led and worked with international teams, it's definitely called Uni or university outside of the states. Same as resumes, their called CV's, right? Or curriculum vitae. Naber:  I did a calculation on this. Like 5% of the world's population or so is in the US, and 95% is outside. You do the math, it's actually staggering as to how much the sociopolitical environment as well as, a whole bunch of other things that the US does and makes decisions on affects the other 95% of the world. But the disproportionate amount of people that actually vote for those things, which is like 1.7 to 2% at any given times, just depending on how many people vote, of the world's population votes on, and has say in what types of things happen in our environment in the US, then subsequently affect the rest of the world. And I just always think it's interesting when we talk about some of that terminology because when all of those folks are listening, they think to themselves, obviously it's called that, but it's just cause that's their mindset obviously. Anyways, keep going. David Katz:       And that'll come back later too, I think. When you new companies, part of the onboarding experience is just getting a sense of are we speaking the same language? Because every company I've joined, and I'm sure this has been similar for you, and more recently in your consulting experience, people use terms so interchangeably. And what I learned early on is like, don't take that for granted and make sure you're really clear. Like, when you say that, what do you actually mean? Like, especially if you're going to work with companies that have international teams, people interpret language very differently. And even like, when I say inside Sales and what that means here in the States, that's viewed very differently, and has a different connotation in Europe. So anyways, just a little point there. So yeah, coming out of school. So I had no idea what the hell I want to do. I just realized through my internships in school that I didn't want to pursue a career short term in the government and nonprofits space. And I honestly, through a weird series of events, just fell completely backwards into a very interesting small Executive search firm called J Robert Scott that was a wholly owned subsidiary of Fidelity Investments. I'd never heard of it. It's not something people go to school and study and say, I want to work in Executive search when I grew up. I had no idea recruiting was a thing, and an industry, and it's actually massive. And so I fell back words into it, and it was just like the biggest point of luck in my early career to have that type of opportunity because I got exposed to so many cool people in cool industries. So we worked with hardware, software, medical device, biopharmaceutical companies. We primarily worked with early stage venture-capital backed companies, and we were working to like bring additions into their Executive team as they were growing and reaching different stage of maturity. We would help them add different roles, and functionality, expertise to their Executive teams. And so I was like such a cool way to essentially get paid out an MBA, straight out of school. And I got exposed to a lot of very interesting people, and got a sense of the way the world works, at least as it pertains specifically to the VC world. Naber:  Awesome. I love the narrative to that value prop as well. That's really cool. Cause you say Executive search, it can mean so many different things for the value prop. I'd like that narrative a lot. So J Robert Scott, wholly owned by Fidelity Investments, and you're at J Robert Scott. What's the biggest thing you learned from there, and then why the jump to LinkedIn? David Katz:       The biggest thing I learned was, there's no reason that I can't aspire to be a successful Executive at a company at some point in time. And the reason I said that there say that is I had so many people, I was like, how the hell did you become CEO and president of this company? And it's kind of funny and to say it that way, but like it gave me a lot of confidence. I can do this. And I think when you're young, or if you're a Sales rep, or if you're an aspiring Executive within the commercial realm, or really any role, I think you look at these people and you put them on such a pedestal. And the reality is they're just humans like you and I. And getting to sit in on some of these board meetings and hear some of the things that they would discuss, I was like, these people aren't that special. In many cases, they really think they are. But there's no reason while others can't have the type of success that they are, at least perceived to have, if you just work hard and kind of pursue the right things. Naber:  Nice one. That's great. I liked that. That's a really good takeaway. And so you're moving into... David Katz:       Yeah, you probably weren't expecting me to say that. You thought I was going to say something completely different. Something that would've made more sense like, the importance of hiring the right talent, and talent is the key to everything. Yeah, I could have said that. But you know what, like, no, that's what I really learned personally and selfishly. Naber:  So, you're making the jump to LinkedIn. Why do you make that decision and kind of walk us through your journey at LinkedIn, for the time that you were there for each of the roles you subsequently jumped into. David Katz:       Yeah, so when I was working in Executive search, I had an opportunity to move to San Francisco and help our firm establish a west coast presence. And so we actually hired a partner from one of the big Executive search firms on the west coast...amazing firm, been around for a very long time, very successful. And I think, I don't know if they're public now, but they were at one point in time. And anyways, we hired this awesome partner, Eric Lund, and we had a great working relationship. We got to work on a couple of projects together and really establish like a good working relationship. And he invited me to come out to the Bay Area and work with him. So I leapt at the opportunity, convinced my then girlfriend, now wife to move out with me. But as soon as I got here, like it's just, the environment's infectious. It's so hard not to get excited about wanting to go and work for one of these companies. And I was just so envious being on th outside looking in. And after about a year of helping Eric kind of establish our west coast practice, hire some other folks to join the firm, I was like, I gotta go get into one of these companies. I started thinking, what do I want to do functionally, like what kind of role would I want to go for, and then what type of company? And I think given my more recent experience, when when I decided to leave J Robert Scott, I was doing selling and I didn't really realize it. I was selling candidates on thinking about opportunities outside of what they currently had. I was selling those candidates then on our clients that we're working with to help them kind of place people at the companies they were invested in and part of. And then I was selling other, potential clients on hiring us to do work for them. And so I didn't realize it because it wasn't like a less structured way of, I didn't have quotas per se. I'm like, you more traditionally did in Sales in a SaaS Sales role, but really I was in Sales. And it was a pretty challenging role, because it's not a business risk, it's a personal career risk, right? You're selling people on why they should think about leaving one role as an Executive for another one that might be much more risky. And so it took a lot of listening, and I really learned how to listen very carefully to what was really important to people and see if it would be the right opportunity. But anyways, so then I figured out, okay, Sales is probably somewhere I could play. Then I started thinking about what's a Product that I'm super passionate about. I spent all day on LinkedIn as anyone in recruiting, right? So, I decided I wanted to pursue a Sales career specifically in LinkedIn. I actually didn't apply anywhere else. I didn't even apply to LinkedIn. I cold called my way in. There was a guy...Tyler Hubs, who had a background similar to me, and I literally cold called, left a voicemail, and he actually called me back. And he invited me down for lunch, and I got to go down and meet in Mountain View with him, with some of the team, and our then VP of Sales, James Volpentest, who I know you're very familiar with and worked for. And it was at a point where, LinkedIn was growing like crazy and they're like, yeah, like we'll take a shot on this guy. And I think the opportunity cost was low enough that they were willing to kind of take on bet on somebody who'd never done software Sales before. And so I joined, I joined as a Sales rep and that was, let's see, I'd say, I think I accepted my offer towards the end of 2010. And I think I joined in January, 2011. Naber:  January 5th, 2011. That was our start date. Nice one. Okay, so you make that jump. Now walk us through your journey at LinkedIn for the different roles that you had. David Katz:       So I started as an Account Executive, and loved it. Learned mostly through trial and error. Just because it was such a fast paced environment and things were kind of like half-built as you would imagine they would be at a company in that stage and for how fast they're moving. But I was super fortunate given the kind of culture at that company. And it's still, the culture at the time was just so collaborative and so focused on development. And my peers around me were so willing to invest in me, and give me time, and let me shadow, and learn more about their processes. They would sit in on my process and give me advice. And so I was fortunate, I got off to a pretty quick start at the beginning of the year. And then about halfway through the year, we had this weird situation where, there was a cohort of us that were doing pretty well, and then there was several cohorts of people who were not. There's like this huge gap where there was either people like blowing out their numbers, or there are people really not even coming close to their targets. And we had pretty aggressive goals that year. and we were getting ready to file and go public. And so it was important to get more predictability in the business. And so they offered me and several other folks this opportunity to become a team lead. Which at the time I thought I was like the coolest thing ever, and if I actually think more critically about it, I'm like, wait a minute. Like, I was kind of taken advantage of here. They were like, hey, how does this sound? We're going to pay the same amount of money, but we're going to, quadruple your risk. And we're going to have you take on quotas for four other people. Don't worry about the fact that you've closed more revenue than all four of them combined in the first half of the year. Like this is probably gonna work out just fine. And when I joined LinkedIn, one of my mantras early on was, I wanted to like really be part of this journey, and I wanted to sign up and take risks. And I wasn't sure if Sales was the right thing for me. I wasn't sure if software tech was the right thing for me, but I told myself like, look, I'm young at this point. I wasn't married. I didn't have kids. I didn't have a mortgage. I'm just going to say yes, I'm going to take on as much risk, as an opportunity as I can and see what comes of it. And so I jumped at it. I didn't really think about it too much. And was like, great, let's see if we can figure it out. And we did, and that second half of the year, I'm proud to say that the team I got to work with were exceptional people and their willingness to listen to some punk kid, who didn't have a ton of experience in SaaS Sales, and work with me, and work as a team was incredible. And we turned around and we hit our second half targets. Three of the four folks actually hadn't achieved their annual targets. Some of them got promoted. And that was the big inflection point for me. That was when I realized like I had found my calling. And I'm so fortunate, and honestly just lucky, that relatively early on in my career I had this Aha moment, where I was like, this is what I was meant to do. Naber:  Very cool. Very cool. So, walk us through then your navigation into leading Sales Dev teams, and then your Mid Market Sales Management role that you had. And then we'll hop into one topic that I want to talk about because I know you started flexing your muscle pretty hard on it at LinkedIn. And then, we'll jump into Dropbox. David Katz:       Yeah. So, after those six months as a team lead, I jumped at any opportunity I could find to get into a management role cause I was like, this is what I want to be doing. And I was fortunate enough there was an opening for a role managing a Sales Development team in San Francisco, and I interviewed for and got the role. And we actually, this is where BNabes and I got closes, we actually were both peers and we're managing, Sales Development teams. And our boss, Jeff at the time, like I think somewhat begrudgingly gave me the role. Like, I think he had his concerns. And if anyone, this is a total inside joke, but if you knew Jeff, he would know like he's not afraid to just tell you his concerns early on, and just make sure they're out there and open. Which is something that I learned is actually, an incredible trait to have is just be open and transparent with people. And he told me why he gave me the role, but he also listed all the concerns he had, and things he wanted to make sure I avoided early on. And fortunately he gave me the role, and he gave me a lot of coaching, especially in the early days on how to be successful as a people Manager, as a first time people Manager. So yeah, I inherited a team. My initial team was 15 or 16 reps, which is like twice the size of the team you should give to a first time Manager. And on top of that, Jeff, who was my boss, but it was in Dublin. So like we had this eight hour time difference. So it wasn't like he was on the floor helping me all the time, or if I had like some in the moment need, I didn't have him to go to. Luckily had some amazing peers that I worked with closely in the San Francisco office that would help kind of guide me and make sure I didn't screw up too bad. So I did that for a year. It was amazing. I loved it. Working with, developing people early on in their careers who want to pursue Sales, which just like such a rewarding experience. And I quickly made my goal just to get as many of them promoted as I possibly could and get them on to the next role. And this is where I actually learned about the power of brand and being viewed as a multiplier in people's careers, and how that would always mean that I would have my pick of the most talented people to recruit. And so advice for any of you who are in a management role, at a slightly larger organization where there's a lot of internal promotion, you want your brand to be known as a multiplier. You don't want to be viewed as an empire builder who just hoards the best talent. That will serve you well in the short term, but in the longterm it's going to bite you in the ass. You want to be known as the person who is focused on the development career of others. And if you do that, people will be knocking down your door to get on your team. And I feel fortunate, like I was able to establish my brand that way. And look at served people well on my team, but selfishly, like it served me well too. I always had the most talented people wanting to work with and for me. So it worked for all of us. So I got to do that for a year. And then in my last year at LinkedIn I went back to actually managing the team I initially joined. Which is such a weird full circle to go through in my time at LinkedIn. And so I got to go manage Account Executives, SMB & Mid-Market Account Executives that next year at LinkedIn as well. And cool enough, got to bring some of the Sales Development reps that I hired along the way on that journey with me. Naber:  Awesome. Okay. So, I know that you started flexing really hard a muscle around hiring. Especially onboarding and hiring, and bringing on great talent. By the way, the skill that you just mentioned...it's talent, but the also skill that you just mentioned, but you're naturally good at it, so it's a talent...around making sure that you become and are known as a multiplier. Like that just has so much more effect on not just the people that, are coming to work for you. People that have worked with you, but like the people that are your peers, like your peers would want to come work for you also or the people that you've worked for would want to come work for you also and work with you because that's your style. It's given back to you company over company role of role. I mean, I feel that personally towards you and I know a lot of people that have worked with you feel that way as well, not just the people that are working for you. So it's got an amazing effect, and a big halo, including sideways and up. But one of the things I know that you started flexing your muscle on his hiring and onboarding great talent. Let's talk about, your philosophy around hiring and bringing on great talent, which you've done well beyond obviously those roles into Dropbox, into Intercom, and into Tessian now. So what is your philosophy on hiring great talent? And let's go through some of the methodology you have. If you have any best practices around each piece of that process as you try to bring them on board. From profiling the role, to sourcing and interviewing them, to evaluating, closing, onboarding, etc. So what's your philosophy, and what's kind of your methodology, and your processes you go through, with some tactics that you use? David Katz:       Yeah, first I would say I am a recruiter's worst nightmare as a former recruiter to work with as a hiring Manager . And if any of them were listening to us, they'd probably laugh. And I think ultimately we have good working relationships, but like to say, I expect a lot, and I have a very high bar for hiring is an understatement. I would say what I learned from my recruiting experience, and then what I learned from some mentors early on, was the two things I was hiring for were mentality and dynamic. And I think the second one is something that people don't pay enough attention to when they're hiring. And I think it's really important to be intentional when you're putting a team or teams together that you also need to be hiring for a team dynamic, and you have to have the right blend of backgrounds and experiences of people in that team. And if you just hire a lot of people with with the right mentality that are just high achieving people but won't create the right team team dynamic, that team's not going to be actually as effective as they could be. so I'm pretty quickly realized that you needed to hire for diversity and hire for a specific dynamic. And that ultimately meant that there were times where I passed on people that I knew would have been very successful individually, but wouldn't have an additive to the team and the team dynamic. I would say like that's a big thing I learned early on, at LinkedIn. And the second thing I learned was you have to be intentional. So what I mean by that is intentional around your recruiting process, and your interview process, and be consistent. I think the tendency when you're moving really quickly or an environment where you're hiring fast is you just need to just hire great people and set them free. And I think people don't spend enough time up front really defining and being intentional about what their hiring process should be. What are the types of interview questions and interview experiences and exposures you want to have for that person that's coming in to make sure you're consistently testing for certain things, to see if they're going to be successful in your environment, but also make sure that they're going to be happy in your environment and for the state that you're in. And I definitely learned the hard way several times that you need to hire for the current state of things, and don't oversell an opportunity or role. You should not be afraid to talk about all of the hairy problems that your company has. And the people that are going to be right for you, like when you mention all of the challenges that you and the team are facing, they're going to light up. You're going to literally watch their body language change if you're in the room with them, where they're going to lean in and be like, tell me more about that. Like they're going to be attracted to those types of problems and that environment. And so often I see people, especially at high growth companies trying to hire people, just been there and done that at larger companies, and have been, quote unquote, in the end zone, so to speak. And that's really risky because if you've hired people who've only worked at very large established companies, they might have great training, but they might not, possess the mindset to be successful in a fast paced, ambiguous environment. Naber:  Awesome. I like that. I've heard that consistently from great leaders that are excellent at hiring great talent, is the underestimation of the last thing you just mentioned around the importance of it. So, very quickly, you've hired a lot of people and a spectrum of different roles. Can you go through and talk about how you onboard really good talent as well? What are some of the things you've learned about onboarding great talent that you felt have been consistent, regardless of, of the role that you're bringing on? David Katz:       Yeah, that's a good one. I think a onboarding is a staged kind of sequenced process that you can't try to throw everything at someone upfront in the first two weeks. They're not gonna retain 90% of the information you give them. And so I think you need to be very specific and intentional around the prioritization of what they need to know and at what time you need to teach them it. And really make sure you get the sequencing right there. And that'll be the difference between like, an okay onboarding and a really rapid one, is like what's really critical in the first couple quarters for the person to know and learn, and really focused us on those things. And then get comfortable, not teaching someone some of the finer skills that they're gonna need, six or 12 months later and stage it out. Make sure that those things are things you focus on as like the next onboarding once they're six or nine months in. So really think about those things. The other thing I would say about onboarding is I'm a huge fan of situational leadership theory, or the Hersey and Blanchard theory on coaching. And for those, go Google it and check it out and you can watch a quick video or it's just a Google image on it and kind of map it out. But the other thing I realized early on is no matter how much experience someone has, they are hiring, they're early onboarding you actually need to be very explicit and very directive with them around what you expect and what you want them to do. And no matter how much experience they have, they actually find a lot of confidence in having this like blanket of you being really directional. And I think the hesitation people have is like, well, I don't want to micromanage someone. And like, I don't want to seem like I'm being overly burdensome on them. It's like, no, I know that's your instinct. We don't want to do that because no one really likes to be micromanaged. But early on when you're new to a company, people find a lot of safety and confidence in that. So I think it's really important to be directive early on. Also be very clear early on of around the expectations of the role. Define what excellence looks like in the role and how someone should be kind of conducting themselves, and what their performance should look like over time, and what behaviors they should exhibit, and how they match back to your culture or values. Really lay that out early on. I can't tell you how many people I've talked to where I'm like, what are your cultural values and how do you talk about them in the first, the first two weeks of onboarding? Or even just companies that I've interviewed, or spent time, with or advised, where I ask them what their cultural values are, if you can't name them off the top of your tongue immediately, something's missing and you need to go back and revisit that. Naber:  Awesome. All right DKatz, let's move into your jump into Dropbox. Why'd you move there? Walk us through, in a couple of minutes, the roles that you had. And then we're going to stop and talk about one or two topics there as well. David Katz:       So I moved there because of a lack of patience and a naivete, most likely. Like I think, I got my first taste of success at LinkedIn, and if we're being honest each other, I probably took it a bit for granted. Like I looked back on it so fondly, and I made some incredible friends and mentors and I learned so much, and like as I said, literally changed the trajectory of my career and it helped me find my calling. But like, if I'm being honest, could I have stayed for a couple of more years and learned a lot more? Yeah. Did I probably prematurely leave because I thought I'd figured out everything in the world? Yes. I was definitely in that category of millennial, first time people either who knew everything. And also just, assumed that all of my success was due to like my own skill, and it wasn't any element of luck, or just working for an amazing company with amazing Product. So like I definitely felt this sense of like, I'm owed this opportunity. And all of a sudden this company Dropbox comes along, and everyone at that point in time had heard of it. It's one of the hottest companies out there. They raised a stupid amount of money at a stupid valuation. And for whatever reason, like they were willing to give me this opportunity to come and build something. And that was an opportunity I wasn't going to have, immediately at LinkedIn, and I decided to go and pursue it. Looking back on it, it was the best thing I ever could have done, but it was also 10 times harder than I thought it was going to be. I was all of a sudden out there in the real world, and building something from scratch without a lot of mentors or people who could coach me along the way or provide a playbook to me that I could rely on. And I had a lot of really brutal hard lessons in those early days, and that's when I started to lose my hair most likely. So I don't regret it. It was amazing. The type of talent and the things I learned from that experience were just incredible. And I was so fortunate to work with such incredibly talented people at Dropbox. It's funny, so many of us stay in very close touch and look back at like this, this alumni association we have of former Dropbox'ers, and it's incredible how willing people are around the globe to just drop what they're doing and help you if you guys overlapped together at Dropbox, is just insane. It's just, it was really special. So, yeah, it was definitely the naivete. Naber:  And then, what were you responsible for? Walk us through your jumps to while you were at Dropbox. David Katz:       Yeah, so I came into help them build a outbound kind of direct Sales motion and go to market strategy for their SMB and Mid-Market segments. At that time when I got there, there really wasn't a business Product, they were just getting ready to launch it. They'd been playing around with like an early iteration of it, and they were doing pretty well, from a self serve perspective. And they had some early traction with a small enterprise team. Just going out and literally trying to just win logos. But no one was paying attention to or focusing on like SMB and Mid-Market at all as a segment. And so I was brought in to help them see if we could figure out a direct Sales motion to cover those segments in North America. And so early days it was about trying to understand the build out a playbook of, what did we think they're going to market motion was going to be? Why would people want Dropbox for business? What problems can it solve for them? And then why did they need that in addition to what they were getting for free from Microsoft or Google, or are they already paying for from Box? And so we're kind of figuring out what our value proposition would be. And then once we figured it out, we started thinking around what was the hiring profile of people we wanted to bring that would help us, figure out something that wasn't completely built. and so I spent a lot of time focused on those things. And then, I joined there, let's see, that was the end of 2013, and we did some light hiring early, but then we really hit the go button in 2014. And I hired, well in the first five quarters, so including Q4 of 2013, I hired 55 people. In order to hire those 55 people I must've interviewed, upwards of 500 plus. Yeah, definitely more than 500. So it was crazy, spent whole days and nights interviewing. But it was, it was wild. We had some early success. We've found something that felt repeatable. We found kind of our ideal customer profile. We started figuring out the value proposition, why they would need us, how we could make that Sales motion repeatable. And then we started to start training the team on it. Naber:  Awesome. Love it. Thank you for that. So, one of the things that you've done multiple times in your career is managing and building out that playbook for the upstream motion to go SMB, Mid Market, Enterprise. What does that playbook look like for you? And what are the steps that you need to take in order to be successful as you're building out, and executing on that playbook? David Katz:       Yeah, it's it's a really fun motion. And to to your point, I did that both at Dropbox and then at Intercom as well, where we were moved from a very down market, more self-serve, kind of motion, or at least certainly as an acquisition strategy. Where it's kind of like, get in, land and then through kind of viral organic growth, and strong Product adoption, and Product love, we'll see some natural kind of organic growth, after they become a customer. And we saw that Dropbox and at Intercom. In both cases what was also similar is, and why I joined in both cases, was there was this sense that you could just move that self-service very efficient, acquisition model up market and start winning larger and larger customers over time. And what they realized in both cases was no, that wasn't the case. And there's kind of a natural breaking point where you get to a certain company size where you have clear definition of roles, and subject matter experts, and decision making processes, where the buyer is now all of a sudden removed from the end user. And where those things start to separate is usually where the self-serve motion tends to stop working really well. And so what you have to do once you figure out you've reached that point of ultimate decision maker and end user are now separate, is start thinking about how are we going to go to these decision makers, outbound after them and get their attention and interest in, and tell them why they should start thinking about us. And also the way you market, the look and feel of your company. B2C Marketing is very different, it's much more user-focused than B2B. And then, the same can be said for more SMB, Mid-Marketing Marketing focus, and Product Marketing in general, and brand, are very different than Enterprise. And if you go and look at companies, you can see this where, with an SMB mid-market you're still closer to the end user. So you can be more playful. Like your messaging is more playful. People are more willing to take risks, there's less, there's less cost for picking, the wrong solution, right? The deal sizes are smaller, the deal cycles are less. And ultimately, if someone makes a mistake it's okay, and you can kind of move on. Whereas you start getting into these larger companies with a lot of legacy technology and systems, it's going to be very challenging to switch something on in their environment, and get the adoption you want at a smaller company. And so the risk is much higher. And so therefore also, the education around how you're going to make them successful, the trust you need to build with them, is much different. And what I always found interesting from Dropbox and Intercom was trying to figure out the timing of how fast you move up market. And there's no great scientific way to go about it. Anyone tells you that if you're at the science, I just think they're lying to you. There's an art to it, of trying to figure how quickly you can move your Product up to larger companies and win them in a repeatable way. And then also, what are the one off really large companies that you're willing to go way up market for to win, knowing it's going to take all ton of your resources and time to make them successful. And there you're gonna have to set the right expectations with them around what your Product can and can't do in the short term. They're going to want to have a very heavy hand in your roadmap, and you've gotta be willing to hear them out on that. But trying to figure the timing of, how quickly can you take a certain Product and a team up market because the Sales motion is different. So there's a lot of education of your Sales team and training to get them ready for that. Many times you're hiring in a different profile, as you're moving more market, of Sales rep. The way you do lead generation is very different. You go from a lot more online webinars to live events and industry events, right? All of a sudden you're doing things like talking to analysts, like Gartner and Forrester and those things are really important. Your up-market, large buyers, there's just so much more risk associated to them making the wrong decision. And so there's just so much education you need to do to make them successful. And so like I always love trying to figure out like how fast you can move up-market and that's the kind of experience I had, at both those companies. The thing I would say I learned from both experiences is, you have to really know your segments, really define your customers, and what the different customers will look like over time as you move up market. And you have to do a ton of upfront research for your larger potential customers around what the Product has to look like, and what feature and functionality you must have, if not immediately, in the near term in order to make them successful and for you to be very credible. So I would say the biggest lesson I learned there, is you have to know your Product inside and out, and know its capabilities and its shortcomings, so that you can accurately wedge in and figure out how quickly can we move up market. And then in terms of working cross functionally, how willing is our Product partners to move up market and to build these types of things that larger companies will just need, just to gain entry into them. And so like really developing those relationships and having lots of R&D conversations where you're talking about feature functionality and roadmap. And really aligning to what are the things we're going to build and in what order, that'll help us move up market. And if you're very close to your Product team, and you guys have a good understanding of what you need to build and over what time period, that will then inform how quickly you can move up market and take on larger potential customers. Naber:  Awesome. Love it. So we're on Dropbox right now. You've talked about a bunch of your experiences that transcend the companies you've worked at. So one quick question that actually, how do you make sure...so one of the biggest parts of this is making sure that you have a closed loop process, and a closed loop feedback system for Product. How do you make sure you do that from a Sales leader perspective? What does that stakeholder relationship look like? And kind of what's the cadence there? David Katz:       Oh, that's a topic I can talk about for a long time. This is something I learned the hard way at Dropbox. Cause I would say I set myself back by thinking about it wrong early days. So, you have to realize that when you move into a role, at a certain stage, your idea of your teams changes the order of priority changes. And so this idea of like different teams. So there's the company team, there's your peer team, and then there's your team that you're responsible for. And you actually need to focus on developing relationships in that order. And also your decision making process has to, has to be in that order. So you have to ultimately, first and foremost as a senior leader, I don't care what your role is you have to do is right for the company, right? And for your customers. Even if that means, pushing back or deprioritizing things, that short term would be really beneficial to you and to your team. Right? You have to nail that. And if you don't, you're going to have a very short stay at on the Executive team. The second thing is you have to realize your second team is your peers. It's your cross functional partners, and they actually come before your team that you're directly responsible for. And that's a weird thing to say. And if you haven't been in that role yet, pay attention to it and you'll get, you'll feel what I'm talking about. And at some point in your career where your number one priority is understanding the motivations and the priorities of your partners in Marketing, and Product, in recruiting, really every function in the company, and that's your first team, and you need to support all of them. Even if it comes at deep Productizing things that would be important for your team and your team is shouting for, you have to support each other. And so when I learned early from the Dropbox experience, that carried over more successfully to my Intercom experience would be, make sure you are just very clear on your intentions, and why you have the beliefs that you do, and develop strong relationships built around trust with your partners. You need them to understand your motivations behind the things you're asking for, or that you are lobbying for with them. You're not always gonna see eye to eye on the roadmap, as an example. Or, from a Marketing perspective, the qualification criteria for opportunities. Or where you should be investing your SEM and SEO dollars. And so you need to know first and foremost that you're here to help them and make them successful. And you have to show them, through your actions, that you're willing to put their priorities and their interests ahead of your own teams. And so if you do that really well, you'll get to a place of like deep understanding of each other, and a good working relationship. And so, like I said, I said to myself back by coming in and kind of guns blazing and a little too aggressive in Dropbox, and I kinda came in a little too aggressive and it was like, we need to build this, then this, then this. And they were kind of like, Hi, yeah, I'm sorry, what's your name? You've been here for what a minute. So I didn't realize that there was a lot of work I needed to do there. And fortunately I was able to rebuild those relationships over time there, but it helped me get off to a faster start at Intercom. And so, so much of it is like how are we going to focus on the roadmap that I think is going to be the most beneficial to our current and future customers. And so you have to approach this as a partnership and ask them what type of input they want from you. You have to make sure that you have an input in their roadmap process. And I learned quickly that R and d teams are much more interested in hearing about problems to be solved versus solutions. Don't tell a PM or Head of R&D, Hey, I think this is what we should build. Like, that's not going to go well for you ever. But talk about customers. Ultimately all of us are passionate about our customers and want to see them be really successful. And no Product hears when the Product they have is painful to their customer, and not doing what they needed to do. And so get out of the way, and let the voice of your customer just come through very strongly. In fact, take your R&D leaders if you can on road shows, and have them just meet with prospective customers, current customers, and former customers, and just get out of the way. Don't voice your opinion, just let the voice come through directly to them. and you'll have a much more engaged, and much more open to feedback, partner within R&D. Naber:  Love it. Excellent advice. Okay. moving into Intercom. Very natural transition and segue for us to leap into that. Why make the jump to Intercom? What were you responsible for? And I've got one more topic for us to chat about before we wrap up David Katz:       Yeah. So, I used to get this question a lot when I was interviewing people at Intercom as well, and it was foremost my boss. So I was very fortunate, to first meet a woman that you know, Laurabeth Harvey, goes by LB. LB and I worked at LinkedIn in a bunch of capacities. Naber:  Quick side story on this. I was LB's SD. Yes, that is how LB and my relationship started. I knew you love that. David Katz:       That's so good. So yeah, so I was really fortunate to get to be exposed to and work with LB in a bunch of different capacities at my time together at LinkedIn. And then when I left, we stayed in touch. And if anything, our relationship got tighter. We would just start to compare notes, share war stories, I went to her for advice on a lot of things as I was trying to figure out what the heck I was doing at Dropbox. And I just always really respected her, and took so much away from every one of our conversations. Funny enough, like I had some catching up with her that, after eight incredible years at LinkedIn, she was starting to think about, potentially going and doing her own thing as a VP of Sales at an earlier stage company. And it just so happened that I had been reached out to by someone I knew at Intercom, who was doing the Executive search. And I was like...he started describing to me what he thought Intercom needed, and I was like, that's LB, that's my friend LB. I remember I immediately texted her and I'm like, Hey, this guy's going to reach out to you. return his call. And one thing led to another. And I think literally within like a month, I was doing a reference call for LB with Owen, the CEO of Intercom. And so she joined. And I never would've recommended she take that call if I didn't think that Intercom was an incredible Product, solving interesting problems, and like really on to something new, and nascent, and interesting. And so she joined, and then she spent the next couple of months trying to recruit me to come over. And pretty quickly her remit grew pretty substantially. She initially joined to lead direct Sales, and then for a number of reasons, she pretty quickly became responsible also for the customer support team globally, which was a pretty big team, as well as the self service business, and was responsible for the self-serve revenue as well. And so all of a sudden she had a lot more responsibility and it was like, I really need someone to come help me with this direct Sales component of this. And I was like, well, that sounds fun. I've only ever managed, led, and built Account Executive teams, and I've really only ever done it in North America. And so to have an opportunity to come in be responsible for the full stack, so to speak, of building a commercial team, from Sales Development, to Account Executives to, Account Managers, and success Managers, and Sales engineers, and getting to build new offices, and new countries, which is like too cool an opportunity to pass up. And to get to do it with a cool company with someone that I loved and respected, and had worked with previously, I was like, how can I not do this? So it wasn't really that, I felt my time had come to an end at Dropbox. It was more like, this is too cool of a thing to pass up. And they didn't fight me on it. I think when I laid out to my former boss at Dropbox why I was going to do it, he was kind of like, yeah, that sounds pretty awesome man. I'm gonna miss you man, and good luck. Naber:  Very cool. LB amazing for so many reasons. so I love that story. I love the transition, and thanks for talking about, what you're responsible for. The last topic I want to talk to you about is best practices for building and maintaining those functions. You've had an interesting, spectrum that for in firsthand managing, all these different types of teams. Most the time people either inherit them or we'll take on one at a time. You have firsthand and frontline managed, and ultimately managed leaders of, all these different teams. So let's hop through them, and just talk about maybe one or two best practices for building and managing that team and the mindset you should have. and that's the last topic I want to talk about. So Sales Development, one or two best practices for building and managing those teams. So Sales Development, Account Executives, Account Managers, success Managers and Sales engineers. Sales Development first. One or two best practices as well as a mindset you should have when building and managing those teams. David Katz:       Yeah. So, and this kind of applies to all roles. I'll take a half step back is, at some point in our careers you get to a place where you're responsible for things that you are not an expert in whatsoever. And that can be kind of scary, but like embrace it because it's true of anyone. Like you're going to get to a level where you're like, yeah, I have no idea how this thing works, but I'm now responsible for it. And it's an exciting and terrifying proposition. And so the first thing I would say is, that's okay. You're not alone. And everyone gets to a point in their kind of journey and career where they ultimately might have that situation. So the best thing to do in that situation is, hire people who know what the hell they're doing. The first thing I would say is, and this is what's really scalable, and it's surprising cause it seems so simple, but so many companies get this wrong from my, my experience, is hire in really senior leaders that will scale and build that function for you. And so really make sure, like, this is what I did when I started building out a Sales engineering team at Intercom. You know, I had worked with Sales engineers, I knew what a great Sales engineering partner looks like, but I didn't know how to build that function. I didn't know what the right KPIs were. I didn't know what the right comp plans were. Like, I had no idea. And I was fortunate to have some friends that led those functions that I could rely on early days, and be like, all right, what the heck do I do here? Like, how does this work? But the sooner you can go and just hire us subject matter expert in, who's an incredible leader, who's probably overqualified for the role in the short term, convincing them to come onboard is the right thing to do because that person will scale that, not function for you. So that would be my first piece of advice is like, you're going to find a certain situation, like go hire an expert. And then just trust them. Like, let them run, create a framework for them, but just to let them go and do their thing. And if you've hired really well, like you're going to be fine. So that's what I would say. But back specifically to Sales Development. Like what are you looking for? Again, I would focus more on the leaders then, versus the reps and individual contributors. So I would think about what are the really important skill sets you need for these different roles for frontline or Manager of experience. To me, Sales Development is operational excellence. You need math whizzes. Like I think there's obviously an art to it, but there's also science, and you need data junkies. Like you really want leaders who love looking at conversion rates, open rates, response rates, measuring every little piece of the funnel, and the top of the funnel, and also really have an interest in Marketing, and Digital Marketing, and can develop strong working relationships with your Marketing partners. Like focus on people who look and feel like that, have that expertise, and they'll really help you scale that function. For Account Executives, it's not to say that operational excellence isn't still really important, but I would say look for very strong coaches. I think the mistake a lot of people make is they hire people who are really high performing in their own right as individual contributors and as reps. And like, I just don't think that translates often into people who are going to be amazing leaders. So you need to focus on finding people who are like exceptional coaches, really good listeners, very situationally aware, have very high emotional intelligence and self-awareness, and are very strong when it comes to hiring. You can test for all those things when you're interviewing people. But for AE's, and also for that matter, for Account Managers, that's who you need. You need really amazing coaches. And that's the areas I would focus on, those leaders, in your early days, is look for those softer skills and those people will be very successful. As long as you're getting the right guidance. For Customer Success and for Sales Engineering, they're more technical roles. And so you also now are looking for people who have a strong affinity for, and love for Product. And kind of geek out on Product, and they're builders, and they're tinkerers in their own right. And those are things that you see come through in their experience, and things they like to spend their time doing outside of work. And so I think, you need to look for people who are very biased towards Product, and working closely with Product, geek out on it, and are very excited about it. And blend that together with like an amazing ability to be good coaches and be strong people leaders. And if you look for those things across the different functions, you're gonna do well, and you'll be successful. And you'll also be more confident that you can be outside of your bounds of experience, and that those people are going to be doing the right things. I think something I see people do all the time is, when they hire people into disciplines where that's not their area of experience, their domain, their just like so paranoid about it, and they spend way too much time worrying about whether or not, are we doing the right things? Is this person really good? Is Our team really good? It's like, no. Define on paper and get feedback from others on what you're looking for, make sure you're clear on the on the skills you want in that leader, but then just them, let them run and do their thing. Naber:  Awesome. I have one more - what I think is a quick question - around, picking companies. You've done an amazing job, and this is a good transition for your move to Tessian, you've just gone through this process recently. You've done an amazing job of picking great businesses to work with at the right time, for both your experience, as well as what you can stretch and learn on, as you grow into the scope of the role and as you take it on. What are some of your career navigation and picking company best practices or tips that you have for doing the same? David Katz:       So first and foremost, look to the team. And if you are considering joining an early stage company as the VP of Sales, or in any leadership capacity, first and foremost, it's the team. And I think the older you get, the more experience you have, the more you know what's personally important to you. And I think what you're solving for later in life is more, the people I'm working with and for, do they have the same philosophical beliefs and values that I have? That's what I would tell you to look for first and foremost. Do these people believe in the similar things and put the same weight on things are just like so important to me. And I tell them all the time, like the older I get, the fewer things really matter to me, but the things that do matter me matter exponentially more. And so really you start getting a sense of what are your core things you must have. And you can start asking and testing for those. So first and foremost, I would say that. Second then is, it depends

Guest: Jenn Knight - Co-Founder & CTO @AgentSync (Formerly @Stripe, @Dropbox, @LinkedIn, @Bluewolf) Guest Background: Jenn has worked with hypergrowth businesses like LinkedIn, Dropbox, and Stripe. At LinkedIn (IPO 2011, Acquired by Microsoft for $27B in  2016) Jenn was the Manager of Solutions Architecture. After 3 years at LinkedIn, Jenn joined Dropbox (IPO in March 2018, $10.5B Valuation). She was there for 3.5 years where she was the Head of Business Technology, managing technical teams spanning financial systems, sales systems, web services (CMS), integrations, and business intelligence infrastructure. Over an 18 month period, she scaled her teams from 15 to 35 people. Jenn has since joined Stripe ($20 Valuation, $785M Raised) for the last 2 years as the Head of Internal Systems. Guest Links: LinkedIn Episode Summary: In this episode, we cover: - The Playbook for Building Business Systems, Tools, and Technology Teams - Mindset, Structure, Chronology, Methods, and Best Practices - The Internal Business Technology Team Superpowers @Stripe, @Dropbox, and @LinkedIn - How to be an End-to-End Process Thinker - Stakeholder Management Tips & Advice Full Interview Transcript: Naber:  Hello friends around the world. My name is Brandon Naber. Welcome to The Naberhood, where we have switched on, fun discussions with some of the most brilliant, successful, experienced, talented and highly skilled Sales and Marketing minds on the planet, from the world's fastest growing companies. Enjoy! Naber:  Hey everybody. We have Jenn Knight on the show today. Jenn has worked hypergrowth businesses like LinkedIn, Dropbox, and Stripe. At LinkedIn (who IPO'd in 2011 and was acquired by Microsoft in 2016), Jenn was the Manager of Solutions Architecture. After three years at LinkedIn, Jenn joined Dropbox (who IPO'd in March, 2018 and they have a valuation of $10.5 billion). She was there for three and a half years where she was the Head of Business Technology managing Technical Teams spanning Financial Systems, Sales Systems, Web Services, Integrations and Business Intelligent Infrastructure. Over an 18 month period, she scaled her teams from 15 to 35 people. Since Jenn has joined Stripe (who has a $20 billion valuation on $785 million capital raised). For the last two and a half years, Jenn's been at Stripe as the Head of Internal Systems. Here we go. Naber:  Jenn Knight. Awesome to have you on the show. How are you? Jennifer Knight: I'm doing well. Thank you for having me. Naber:  Awesome. Thank you for coming. It's amazing to have you. I'm excited for so many reasons. we know each other well and we've worked together in the past. But your brain, and getting to share that with people in the audience is really exciting for me. it's hard for me to contain some of the excitement with my emotions. But, I'm excited to go through some personal stuff today. So go through and dive into who Jenn is as a person. Start from where you grew up, and some stuff from your childhood. So people can get to know you a little better, like I do. And then, we'll hop into some professional stuff. Why don't we just get started. So, you grew up in San Francisco, you're smarty pants. Anyone that has met you for more than a minute knows that, but it's written in you DNA as well as your GPA, as well as your accolades. Walk us through, a few different things about what Jenn was like as a kiddo, and what it was like growing up with as Jenn Knight. Jennifer Knight: Well, I grew up north of San Francisco, in Sonoma County, in Petaluma, which was a ton of fun. It has changed a lot now, but in the early nineties, it was very rural still. Get on your bike, ride into a field, find some mice, hang out. I was a pretty nerdy little kid. I grew up in a house that didn't have a TV. My Dad is an engineer, so we were always puttering on things. He had a garage full of tools, and we're always being taught new things. I was always encouraged to be outside or around. Got a computer pretty early, which was neat. My brother and I, very nerdy, would love to do things like see how many files we could delete to destroy the operating system, and then rebuild the thing. Built a few computers growing up, but really enjoyed that part of life. Yeah, I was a kid who had a little bit of a different experience growing up just because of the nature of my house. And spent lot of time outside, and a lot of time building and poking on computers, and just hanging out. Naber:  Cool. Were you a particularly social kid? Jennifer Knight: That's a funny question. I always had good friends, a few good friends. I think I'm still that way. I'm someone who finds people that resonate with me and I keep a few close. I really enjoy the company of others, but I've always been someone who has had two or three really close friends, than whole big group. And growing up I had to change schools in middle school. And so at 12 years old I had to move across to a school across town. And that taught me one that you can make new friends but was pretty scary I think at the time. So you get close to people in elementary school and then didn't get a chance to stay friends with those people. I had to make new friends at 12, which was great in the sense of it taught me that you can, and you can survive. But it definitely meant that I had a few folks that I kept close. Naber:  Cool. I like it. A small, very close circle. And you said you were always building things, or tinkering, and having some nerdy fun. Tell us about a little bit of the nerdy, fun hobbies that had. Jennifer Knight: I think, I actually laugh when I look back on this...A very good example of this is my fourth grade science project was about different forms of energy, and it was about potential versus kinetic energy and the conversion. So my Dad had me worked with me to solder a little, wind mill thing that was powered by candles. That might give you a good picture of what my house is like. And then we did things like gardening. That was always fun in the summer. Petaluma was a great place to grow a garden in the backyard, so my parents did that. Just those kinds of projects. Those are the ones I remember the most, I think partially because you get pictures of them, and they're the stories that get told. But there were always a million little things we were playing around with. Naber:  Yeah. Cool. Love it. That's great. And let's see, quick stop on high school. What was high school like for you? Jennifer Knight: High School was a lot of fun. I wanted to get out of Petaluma. I knew that that wasn't where I wanted to be, and I knew I wanted to go somewhere for college. In my family education was really important. So, all growing up it was, you're going to go to school, you're going to do well. You're gonna learn a lot. You're capable of learning a lot. You're very smart. Put your head down and learn. Go get opportunity. So that was just the ethos of my growing up. One thing I will say is my parents were not obsessed with grades, they didn't push me to be perfect. I weirdly pushed myself, and at some point they were like, you need to calm down a bit. But high school was a lot of fun. I had a really close, like once again, handful of very close friends. We all encouraged each other to go after where we wanted to go next. Really great study groups. It was also for me a hard time. My Mom was sick when I was growing up, and she got really sick again when I was about 16. So that was hard at home. My parents dealt with it really well, but I had the mix of trying to be the kid who was studying and then dealing with some things at home. So I think once again, close knit group of friends is really important for me because they were people that I could lean on and really knew what was happening in my life at. And the rest of it, was just getting through it. Naber:  Interesting. Some things a lot of kids that age don't necessarily have to deal with obviously. So you wanted to get out of Petaluma, but you were trying to be perfect so you could have all the opportunities in the world to do that and chase your dreams. Your dreams brought you to Beantown Boston. So tell us about going to BU. Tell us about why, and what were like at BU. Jennifer Knight: Yeah, so, my parents had saved a bit for us to go to school, but couldn't go anywhere. So one of the reasons that studying was really important for me, was ultimately getting scholarships, and getting the opportunity to go to school. And I actually went to Boston site unseen. I'd never been there. I didn't know anything about the school. Yeah, it was funny. So they reached out to me, and they offered me a really amazing scholarship, and it actually brought the price of the college down to closer to what a UC would be for me. And so I was making a decision whether to stay in California, or go somewhere else, and my parents were very open to encouraging me to try something new. My Dad said...he always jokes that I was running away from them. He said to me, "Leave California now. If you don't like it, wherever you go, you can always come back. But if you don't leave now, you may never actually leave the state, and and you may not see what the rest of the world's like." So, I accepted to BU, and I had a choice for my parents to come with me for orientation or to help me move in. So my Dad came with me for orientation, and that was the first time I saw saw the school and saw Boston. Naber:  That's a very Jenn Knight thing to do. You're so adventurous and fearless. I love the courage and the fearlessness. It's cool. It's a good example. Jennifer Knight: Looking back on it, it's funny, I think I was mildly terrified. But I really wanted to study international relations, and or something along that, and the UC schools that I was looking at only had international economics, and I'm more interested in people problems than technical problems actually. So BU had an amazing international relations school, and that was ultimately what encouraged me to go. Naber:  Awesome. And international relations. And you also studied French in for a year in France, correct? Jennifer Knight: I did, yeah. So I was a international relations major. Foreign Policy and Security in the Middle East was the focus of my studies, but I also did a minor in French. Naber:  What was your experience like in France? Jennifer Knight: It was an amazing experience. Once again, it's a different time now. At that time there were cell phones, but not really. There was internet, but not really. I didn't have a laptop with me that could connect to the internet very often. So it was an interesting experience at 19 to get on a plane and fly all the way across the world, and then get a calling card and get on a pay phone at seven o'clock at night to call your family, to handle the time zone difference. I was ready in that I had studied French in high school. I was also not ready in that I had not studied it for a semester before I went. But I had an a pretty incredible experience on my way over there. Being from the West Coast, the program that my school ran didn't actually coordinate my flights because they coordinated everything for kids on the east coast. So once again, I was put on a plane, and my parents said good luck. And when I landed in Paris, I had no idea that Charles de Gaulle was kind of a mess. I was running through the airport. and I saw the group that I was eventually gonna study with being guided through the airport by an adult. And I was running for a gate, to miss my flight. But I got to the gate, and right behind me showed up a woman who's about my age, and she had actually been studying English and in the US during the summer. And I had no idea what to do. And she just grabbed ahold of me, and she took me to the ticket table, and she handled everything. And we went to a different airport, got on a flight together to Leon. And then her parents drove me to Grenoble with her because they were going home. And it was totally surreal experience, but also one that I think back on a lot that the world is actually a very generous place, and it's a very kind place often, if you're open to it. And I know it has its rough edges, but at a young age being able to travel over there and see that people are people across the world, and people are willing to help, was really incredible start to the journey. And that things don't always go perfectly, but they will end well, was something that was fun. And then it was a crash course in trying to navigate another culture, which I've always looked back on and really appreciated what the program gave me. So it was a fun year. Naber:  Very cool. Good story too. Good story. I always feel better when I talk to you, Jenn. You keep such an optimistic, positive light. So you studied at BU. Walk us through your first couple of gigs, up until before LinkedIn, so up through Bluewolf, and let's do some hops. Explain it. Typically we go through a few different things within those gigs. What I want to do is get to LinkedIn, Dropbox, and Stripe and talk through a couple of examples, and some of your superpowers, and we'll get there. But anyways, why don't you hop us through just so we have a good understanding of where you came from professionally. Hop us through some of those gigs and what you're up to. Maybe in like maybe like five, seven minutes. Jennifer Knight: Yeah. Seeing as I studied a bunch in high school, I actually entered college as a sophomore, finishing in three and a half years because I took a bit of extra time to go to France. So I graduated actually December 2006. For family reasons with my Mom being sick, and not being very clear how long she was going to be doing well, I decided I wanted to come back to the west coast. I had the most useless degree on earth to come back to the west coast. There, there is very little to do with international relations with a focus on the Middle East in San Francisco Bay Area. So I came back had to figure out what I was going to do. And I ended up just on craigslist looking at jobs. That was the way back then, that and the newspaper. Which was 2007, and it sounds crazy, but that's the truth. LinkedIn was, I suppose, kind of a thing, but it was very, very small, not really a thing. It's just starting out. Right. Naber:  It had volume of users, but not a lot of density and a lot of engagement. So it's just less useful at that point. Jennifer Knight: Yeah. So I just applied, I mean, toeverything I could. And then I ended up getting a job as an Office Manager at a solar company in Berkeley. And I, with my college degree, went and answered the phones and opened to the mail. But it was the thing that afforded to me to get my first apartment, and my first foray out into the world. It was a great community of people. It was an opportunity for me to be in an environment where I could just see how I could help. And so I learned as much as I possibly could. I had a lot of fun working with the outsourced IT guys who would come in and help with the servers. And then, we hired a Director of IT, and he was a bit overwhelmed and he asked me if I wanted to help him Administer Salesforce, and so I started doing that. I was there for two and a half years. The company's split, part of it was sold off - the residential was sold off, stayed with industrial side, learned Salesforce development. I was quite lucky in that I became a Salesforce Administrator right before Salesforce opened up as a platform. And then my boss at the time taught me how to program on the platform. It's very similar to Java. Apex is Salesforce is language. So I got to iteratively roll into this platform as it was growing. And I was one of the first 500 administrators certified, which is very...I look back on it, and it's a nerdy moment in that...but just a good timing moment. So I was doing that, but I was pretty stuck. And after two and a half years, I was pretty burned out actually. When the company split, I was the only person doing my role. And I enjoyed a lot of my coworkers. I have, actually, one of my best friends from that job. But I just wasn't loving it anymore, and I was too tired actually to really look for what was next and know what I wanted to do next. So I decided to take six months off, and this was in 2008-2009. So everyone thought I was out of my mind. But I did, and it was really fun. I moved to San Francisco. I worked in nonprofit, so I actually did nonprofit work at, Salesforce nonprofit, at a women's community clinic and at an urban garden. So the women's community clinic in San Francisco and at the place that does urban gardening in Oakland. Helped them set up their Salesforce instances. The urban garden one was amazing. We use Salesforce to track plants, and pests, and tools, and acreage, and all sorts of crazy stuff that you wouldn't imagine. Yeah. So I did that, and when I moved to San Francisco, Craigslist again, my craigslist roommates - one worked at Salesforce as a Sales rep and one worked at Bluewolf as a Sales rep. And my roommate Chris, who worked at Bluewolf said, hey, we're looking for developers. I don't think you want a full time job right now, but do you want to come contract with us, and check it out? ...did some contract work, and then after probably four months I decided to join full time. And that was the first time...and one of the reasons I did it, that was the first time I got to figure out if I was any good. And when you do something alone, you have a sense like I knew I could make things work, I knew I could solve the problem, but I had never been around other Salesforce developers where people with technical backgrounds, to find out if I was actually good at it or not. And I had an amazing group of people and an amazing support system at Bluewolf to help me grow and some great mentors there. So I couldn't be more thankful for them. They were extremely patient as I was plotting through things, and then also threw me at some really, really tough challenges. So I was doing a lot of the development for west coast projects, by the time I left. Did that for about a year and a half...um, I am not a consultant. I love the design. I didn't love flying in, building something, and then leaving it. I also didn't love being on a plane all the time. So I hadn't really known that I was going to do with myself, but I put my profile up on LinkedIn, and then LinkedIn found me on LinkedIn. And that's how I ended up at LinkedIn. Naber:  Nice. Awesome. Okay. We've got to LinkedIn. That's a really good story. You got to work on some, excellent cool projects, while you were trying to figure out your actual depth of your prowess around this new set of skills you were learning. But it's probably also really stimulating for you because you're such a smart person. You're also trying new things all the time, and wanting to build. So I'm going to guess that was really stimulating to learn this whole new world of technical bricks that you could build with. Jennifer Knight: It was, it was a lot of fun. It also taught me that that skill set around Salesforce is something it can be really can be used anywhere. And it's something I talk about with my teams now. It's quite fun, and I think a lot of skills in a lot of different areas of the business are transferable, but if you want if you want to work at a small company, if you want to work at a big company, if you want to work in nonprofit, if you want to consult, there's kind of a home anywhere. And that is pretty liberating because you get to go pick your family, and pick where you want to be. Naber:  Cool. Love it. All right. So, give us a quick chronology of what your responsibilities were, and what you're up to at LinkedIn. And then I have a couple of questions for you to follow-up and dig into your brilliant mind a little bit. Jennifer Knight: So I joined LinkedIn as the first Salesforce developer, joined the team that was in existence. There were five at the time, and the were two of us who joined, myself and a woman who was also doing Salesforce administration at the same time. So we grew to a team of seven. I still work with today, one woman from that team. I could not be more thankful once again for what they taught me in terms of how to approach an environment and how to approach work, just work. I was the youngest by far, and I was coming down from San Francisco, and I'd come from...Bluewolf was a really young environment as well. So that ethos of chaos, and running around, and experimenting, and trying new things, and to go from that to a place where people were far more measured, I hadn't seen that before. It was, yeah, we can do this. Like we're gonna think about it, we're gonna make a plan, and we're gonna go after it. It was really intense. We were building a ton, but it was very focused and measured. and it wasn't all over the map, and that was both due to the team that I had around me, and also a lot of the partners that we had at LinkedIn. So I joined as a developer, and then I helped grow out the Salesforce Technical Architecture and Development team over the course of my three years there. And so I was responsible at the end for our project work. We restructured the team, our lead structure the team as a Plan, Build, Run. So PMO, a business analyst doing the business requirements gathering, build was my responsibility - so those were the big project work, and then run was kind of the day to day administration, and keeping the lights on, minor enhancements, things like that. My team would do both technical development, but also if there was a administrative component of configuration, we might partner with an Admin to do that. Naber:  Nice. Very cool. One of the questions I have for you, and this is actually a good segue into that...you had a lot of experiences, at a lot of different teams, also built a lot of differe teams with LinkedIn, Dropbox, Stripe. You can go across those if you need to to pull experiences. But, is that the typical anatomy of a Internal Business Systems and Tools team? Or, if it's not, what is the typical anatomy, and can you give us a little bit of a breakdown? Jennifer Knight: Yeah. So those functions are the three behaviors that you see across the board. Alex, who's my Manager at Dropbox, said way back in the day...it's people, process, technology. And that is true always. So do you have the partner, does the partner know how their processes articulated? Do you understand how to reinforce, and support, or automate, or speed up, or whatever you're trying to achieve, that process with technology? And then there's the iterative, like, continuing to keep that alive and continuing to improve it. I think about the world in that framing all of the time now, that's how we approach it. And so our team is staffed for each of those areas. The plan side is always about, let's sit down with the people we're partnering with, and let's understand their process. Now that team on my team is responsible for really understanding the business partners' process, and then starting to think about who do we need to engage with from the technology side to support that process? Then the build side is the actual team that's saying, okay, now I've got the process. How do we empower this with the tools we have? Or what tools do we need to go buy? And run, of course, being the day to day maintenance. Those functions always exist. They are not always carved out as specific teams because depending on size, you just don't have the resources. When I joined LinkedIn, each one of us was a little mini plan, build, run. There were only seven of us, and we were supporting a lot. And so we would go sit down, and get the requirements, and then we would go off, and going to build something, and then you're the one who kept it alive. And and then eventually when you got a little bit burned out on that area, you'd switch it to one of your other team members. So I ended up with Sales Development work because April was done thinking about that problem...and then we've cycled through. But those, those pillars exist. They just evolve. And how you structure the team varies quite a bit. There is not a perfect way to do that. I think it depends a lot about where the organization is, what they're valuing at the time, and then who do you have on staff. But the core behaviors that remain the same across LinkedIn, Dropbox and Stripe. Naber:  Okay. That's awesome. That's a really good answer. Thank you so much. And while we're on LinkedIn, can you explain,what LinkedIn does extremely well from a Systems, Tools, Building leverage resources? And when you do that, could you lean into some of the things you do really well within the respect of Sales and Marketing? Because I think the audience is going to want to want to understand each one of these businesses, both what they were good at, why that's important, and how do they do it? Jennifer Knight: Yeah. So it's been a few years since I was there, so I'm sure it's evolved. But one of one of the overarching things that I remember from that time is actually just Focus. I think LinkedIn did very well...and as a partner to it, I appreciated it a lot after I left. There's always thrash. Nothing's perfect, the business evolves. Part of my responsibility is to be flexible enough to accommodate the fact that business has changed. They chart a course, but it's not like...Product Development is exactly the same way. Factors change and they can change fairly rapidly. And so the needs of the business can change fairly rapidly. That said, knowing more now and seeing, having seen different environments, in the face of that, I'd say LinkedIn did very well on remaining focused and what the core objectives that they were trying to enforce were. And then systematizing those. And maybe doing some experiments on the edges of other like creative things that we could potentially do to drive the business, but making sure that we were focused on being excellent at a few things, doing those very well, and those being backbone things for the business. So it was the first time that I had to work on some of the end to end workflows around Demand Gen. And how do you think about that, and how are you optimizing that? And not about a lot of bells and whistles and not always about crazy experimentation. It was first let's get it right. We have a core business objective, and the objective is not changing. It's reduce the time to touch. Okay, let's go like nail that one to the wall. And then once we get that one done, we'll be find the next one, and we'll like nail that one down. And those are the focus areas that don't change, right? Even if your approach changes, or your markets change, they're just really core parts of how you want to operate a business. So that was something LinkedIn did very well. One of the reasons that I left LinkedIn though, on the system side, is that at the time that I was there we were very silo'd. So we had a lot of autonomy in the space that we operated in, in partnership with our Sales ops partners. But some processes are actually cross business units. And some Systems work best when they're integrated across. A good example of this is a CRM to Oracle. A CRM to an ERP. So Salesforce to Oracle, or Salesforce to Netsuite, or I mean, no one uses anything besides Salesforce. That's not entirely true, but, Dynamics to SAP, any of those. Those flows were something that were interesting to me, and I didn't have the opportunity to work on as much. We could influence it. We could encourage. We couldn't work on it as much. When I got to Dropbox, that was the first place that I was able to think about end-to-end flows. And that was an area...because I had the autonomy to go own those. So that was an area...I think LinkedIn did very well on the focus, focus in depth in a particular system space. But we struggled a bit on the cross Systems, from where I was sitting. This is not a universal picture, but but from where I was sitting. So when I moved to Dropbox, I got the opportunity to think more cross platform, and that helped smooth some of the edges across teams, which was a lot of fun. At Dropbox we were in a bit of a different mode, so we were doing a lot of crazy growth. Naber:  Awesome. This is good. This is a good transition. So ell us what you're doing with Dropbox. Jennifer Knight: So I joined there to do Sales Systems. It was still really early days. We were still hiring out our Sales operations team. And so, I at that point, learned the importance of the people process part. When you put technology first, it it proves to be a bit of a challenge. That one was...I learned a lot more about meeting my business partners where they were. I actually leaned more into some of the operations and business analyst part of my role. That was not what I was doing at LinkedIn, but at Dropbox by necessity, you're saying there's these three functions, I was doing plan and build and run. And as I hired my team out, I hired them to do run first, and then started building from there, so that I could figure out what the needs of the business were, and then try to make some educated decisions around what we were going to invest in on the technology side. We had a ton of fun and we were building from scratch. There are things at LinkedIn, even by the time I was there, that had become so complicated that you kinda didn't want to touch them. When I got to Dropbox, it was the first time I got to build an order to cash process. And had amazing partner, who was also new. He had never built it before, and he was coming from the finance side. And he was really passionate about making this a really amazing experience for people. And so we just partnered really closely together to make that happen and thought about how we did it end to end. We ended up over the course of probably two years, building a flow that I'm still very proud of, but it was very focused on these business objectives again. We wanted the experience of someone who was buying Dropbox through a contract, from a provisioning perspective, to mirror the experience of someone who was buying with a credit card. And that was our goal. So we set that as our goal, and then we also set a goal that along the way that we had as smooth as possible process with the Sales team, so that there was a lot of transparency about what was happening. Contracting, as some of you know, can be very complicated from the Sales side because there are legal people coming in, there's financial approvals, there is these multistep processes, and it can feel like it's taking forever and you have no idea what's going on. And then maybe the thing is signed, and now you don't know why your customer hasn't been given the Product because it's fallen into another manual process where someone has to go into some backend system. Or in the case of, and this was happening when I got there, you as a Sales rep now have to go into some backend system that you maybe don't fully understand and punch a bunch of buttons, and then hope that everything works out, and that your customer gets the Product they want. So we started once again with that focus, and we were really successful there. And those kinds of activities were the things that made my team successful. When we could find those focus areas, through our rapid growth, those are long pull items. They take a long time to get right, and if we kept focused on it, we were able to drive impact. So we were really...I brought that from LinkedIn, that focus in our space. Naber:  Hey Jenn, can we pause there for a minute?0 So let's use the order to cash process that you built. Can you walk us through the phases you go through to build the case for it, plan out the project, resource and manage the project, you've got to have Internal buy-in, then you've got to have pull through for people, actually making sure that they do what they need to do in the field and the business? Can you walk us through using that as an example for number one, what the steps are? And number two, from a Sales and Marketing or just really from a stakeholder perspective, what are some of the best practices in working with your team so that we can be better at doing that? As you go through it. Jennifer Knight: Yeah, so, let's break it down. How do we approach it? So now, one of the things that I think a lot about when I'm approaching these types of projects is how do we think about, an ask, and it's end to end? So one of the things about working with a Systems team is that we're ultimately accountable for the overall health of the Systems. And it's an interesting process for us to understand what a business is asking for. And then trying to put that in the context of either another set of business asks or the platform on the whole. And we also have situations where, there are multiple stakeholders. And order to cash is a good example of one. Demand Gen flows is another good example of that. Where as a business owner, or as maybe a Sales Manager, you're saying, in your inner mind thinking, it's taking too long for my teams to get contracts out the door. And then on the other side, the finance Systems team is thinking, like, I need to be able to ensure that this contract has the correct margins, or is feeling good about that. And the legal team is sitting there thinking like, what are these contracts terms? Let's make sure that those make sense for the business. So when we get these asks, part of what we think about on the more complicated asks, but even on the smaller ones, is who are all the players in this ask? What is it in the context of the larger process flow? And what is it in the context of the larger Systems? And that's something that I've had the opportunity to do a lot, and something I quite enjoy is how do we put this in, frame it out, and where it wants to be. The other thing that we need to do on our side, is thinking about how we get from point A to point B? And can we do it in one shot, or to your point, does it have to be a multistep process? And some of these things are quite complex, and so we're not going to win it all at once. So for us, starting with that problem statement and then working through with our business partners to get an alignment on the overall problem statement, what we ultimately want to achieve, and then agreeing on how do we iteratively get there. So what are interim wins along the way, or something that we benefit from, and we benefit from that partnership. In terms of resourcing and implementing a thread...I'd say it varies wildly depending on your circumstances. And Systems tends to be lagging behind the business. I have yet to be an environment where we weren't coming in two, or three, or four, six years late. It's just the nature of it. I think SaaS has this sheen on top of it, where you're just oh, I can just get a Salesforce account and probably have one person manage it, and it's going to be okay. Like it's easy, right? And actually, that's not wrong for a period of growth. But then when you start to get into these more complicated asks , or you start to get into Architecture questions, or you start to need to do development, then that tool becomes something quite serious to take charge of, and you need a team that is dedicated to it and experienced. I talked to folks about this a lot, where there's a whole period of time where you really just go experiment, like try to find your way. You don't need to hire a technical architect, and a full team, and everything right out the gate. But as your business starts to take off, and you start to have those needs, having an experienced person, who's seen it before, come in can really help you figure out what you want to navigate over the course of the next two years. So I think the resourcing thing, it's very varied. But if you want to tackle a more complex workflow, or you want to really empower a part of your business, that's the point where you start to think about these dedicated resources. And that's when I'm looking at it...for my team, when I come in, I look...survey the landscape. What are our biggest challenges? What do we want to think about? And what are our business partners talking about? What aren't they talking about that is probably going to doom us anyway. And then how do we line those up, and what kinds of resources do I need? Do I need a lot of business analysts? I might need a lot of business analysts right out the gate because I may need to spend time helping the business articulate their ask. That actually is a weird one. Often I work with business partners, and they're like, where's where's the admin? And where's the developer? And I'm saying, well those are execution folks and you want a partner right now is going to help you think through your process, and then make sure that we're reinforcing the right behaviors. So I'm going to actually get business analysts to define that. And then once we have those definitions, we have a bunch of different levers we can pull in terms of execution. I personally enjoy building teams that are really dedicated to the business. So we always have a mix of technical and BA full time on the team. Most of our projects, the big ones take 12, 18, 24 months. So you really want someone who is excited about the end to end and will build the continuity. But there are amazing, I worked for one, they're amazing partners who will come in and help you with resourcing. And we also pull that lever a lot on our team. But we do it in the context of making sure that we have the business requirements anchored, and we know what we're going after. S to kind of rewind back to your question to how we approach these things. What's important for us is understanding what we're solving, and being able to really work with the business to understand what their objective is. And if it's a project where we know it's going to take more than a quarter of more than a month to go after, making sure that that objective is something that is very solid. And that's what I was talking about earlier. Your objective being speed to lead, your objective being speed to contract...there's those kinds of objectives where even as time passes, we're going to keep after that. So we feel successful together over the course of the year or two it takes, and that we can measure our progress against it. The failure modes that I've seen is when we don't know what we're solving for and instead we get the kind of partnership where it's, I need this field, I need this thing. I've already solved it for you, justt go build it. We can do that. The probability that it will ultimately build into the kind of system or process that we both want together, is not super high end. On the margin, it's okay. We'll put in a field, we''ll kind of get going. We are here to empower and enable the business. And that's something that I talk about with my teams quite a bit. Like, our responsibility is to empower the business, and so we should understand where they're coming from and then try to get them there. Ideally we do it in partnership, and process, and Solution design. Sometimes we just have to crank. Naber:  Cool. So that was awesome. That was an awesome answer. I love it. It's almost like you read it out of a book, so, and maybe you wrote the book. So, one more question, and then we'll move on to Stripe because you already gave an example with the order to cash and that was great. Actually, two more questions. You mentioned a couple things that Dropbox was doing well, but what's the one thing you think they do extremely well from a Business Systems, Internal Business Systems, Business Systems and tools, leverage resources that they're building, etc. What's one thing they do world-class? Why is it important? And how did they do it? Jennifer Knight: An interesting question. Naber:  I mean, LinkedIn was focus, if you had to say it in a few words, Dropbox is obviously world-class at a few things. Jennifer Knight: So what I would say, and it was very different in its approach. When I got there, like I said, I started to do Sales Systems, and I got to grow in my role and pick up other teams. And so that's where I learned about Finance Systems, and ended up taking that over and building that. I'd say, maybe the flip side of what I was experiencing in terms of rigidity at LinkedIn, Dropbox had an environment where if you wanted to go tackle a problem ,and you could rally your resources around it, and you could get get the team together, we can go tackle the problem. And that was super, super fun. Obviously from a system side, I think that was a strength there, where we had once again the autonomy to go try to solve these problems and could get sponsorship to go solve these problems. If you could find your partner on the other side, and shake hands, and go after it we could move ourselves forward. And there wasn't resistance to that. There is a push to, however we get to a better place, let's get to that better place. Not about who you are, or what team you're sitting in, or my priorities versus your priorities, and how our roadmaps, and all that fun stuff. It was hey, we have this problem, and yeah, it's going to involve like three or four teams. Let's go figure out how to do that, and we'll get together, and we'll go agree on the problem, and we'll go solve the problem. And so we got that was one of the things that helped us build some of this really cool stuff and these experiences. And I'm really proud of the teams that did that because we thought about not ourselves. We thought about what we wanted to achieve both for our customers, but also our external customer experience, and we were able to drive to that. Even when it wasn't easy, even when we weren't aligned on exactly how we planned, that was something that we did really well there. And I think the culture of the company of empowering people within the company to go tackle those kinds of problems made that successful. Naber:  Do you have any idea how they did that within the culture? Maybe it was like one or two things that empowered people to be able to go solve those problems, and have that autonomy? Jennifer Knight: Yeah. And it was that way pretty much from day one. I mean, so there's flip side. Anyone can buy anything, right? Which, on on the system side, is its own like special crazy. But there wasn't like a specific tenant that we followed. There wasn't anything like that. The one thing that, Dropbox also did well, and LinkedIn had this, but they stressed it in a different way, was this concept that we called cupcake there, which is let's have fun together in this. And so I think that that empowering you to go out and like build community, build team, and have fun with it, was something that Drew and Arash really instilled. But there's not a like phrase or a specific behavior other than encouraging an environment of community, and communication, and through that you could go find your people, and find your path. Naber:  Yeah. Yeah. It makes a lot of sense, and it's extremely empowering. I felt that when I was at Dropbox as well. But cupcake, it's a really good thing to add. Like having fun while we're doing it, and working on cool shit together That's pretty cool. And that's a good place to start for all the stuff you want to work on versus just what's necessary or having a less creative mindset around it or vantage point? Awesome. All right, let's move on to Stripe. So yyou're leaving Dropbox, you're heading to Stripe. Why do you make the jump to Stripe, and what are you up to there right now? Jennifer Knight: So, it's been a progression of scope actually. Something that I laugh...I love my job because I get to be incredibly nosy and learn everything about the back end operating of a world. So at LinkedIn I got to learn so much about how Sales and Marketing think, what they prioritize, personalities, what's top of mind, what are the pressures, what are the challenges? I mean I knew it because I actually interviewed for some Sales jobs. I will never be a Salesperson. That is a such a hard job. And being on the technical side, I also appreciate the challenges of a technical world. But having the opportunity to be in with Sales teams and Marketing teams, and see how they think was something that I got to do at LinkedIn. I got to Dropbox, it was doing that and then I got the opportunity to learn how accountants think because I took over finance Systems. But it dropped off, and it's totally different world. I took an introduction to financial accounting after sitting in our first CFO's staff meeting because, I was like, I literally understand none of the terms. And I had an amazing partner in our revenue accountant. She was Sarah, she was patient person. I took over the finance Systems team, and we were working on a project. And she was describing debits and credits, and she's walking everything through with me, and she's willing to repeat herself as I'm stumbling through it. And I got to really understand that the pressures in their world are really fundamentally different than the pressures in Sales and Marketing. And they have external pressures with GAAP, and all of these other requirements that they're marching to. And so it got to learn about that. At Dropbox though, there was no mandate when I was there for the Business Technology team, we were slowly picking up pieces. And that was a fun way, but it was also hard. Sometimes, I was picking them up and they were healthy, and sometimes I was picking them up, and they were in an interesting place. So I'm going through that, and we were getting pretty big, pretty stable as a team. And then through a friend, ended up chatting with the CFO at Stripe, and they were looking for someone to lead Internal Systems. And that would be Finance, Sales, Marketing Support, People, the whole set. And that's what ultimately pulled me there. Also the fact Stripe earlier reminded me, in tone and approach, to LinkedIn in the early days. There was just something about it that, frankly, just felt familiar. And so that was why I decided to take that opportunity. Naber:  It's amazing how often someone's tone and what they say...when you've been at a few different tech businesses, you understand what good culture looks like. And you walk into a place, and you're having all these conversations when you're going through the recruitment process. It's amazing how often it comes up where, some version of, it felt like I was coming home, or it felt like I was going to something that I already knew, and I could see like where the movie was going. I've seen this movie before. I've directed it. I like the culture because it feels like coming home. A few of those different things happen a lot when you're making your third, fourth, fifth jump into a lot of these businesses, you start to get a really good sense of the bullseye for what you want as well. Maybe I'm just ahead of my skis on that, but it sounds like that's you felt as well. Jennifer Knight: Yeah, I think it's very true. At some point...So, I think everywhere you go, you learn, right? Every situation you're in, you learn. And you learn what works for you, and what doesn't work for you. And it's not even a judgment call. It's just part of who we all are, and what makes us happy. We find our people, and we're successful with our people, and hopefully we get an opportunity to meet many, many people of many different approaches. But I think at the point that you're talking about, for me, I think about the fact that...Of all the three places that I've been, that are roughly similar shape, they all have the same problems. So you're actually solving the same base problems very frequently. Naber:  Can you run through some of these as you're thinking about them? Jennifer Knight: Yeah, so, actually the reason I talk about order to cash is that's a problem for everyone, everywhere. It's a really complicated, really tough flow. It's hard to get right. It's really frustrating when it's not supported. And that's one that I've seen everywhere as a challenge. Data models, everyone gets their Salesforce data model wrong, everyone - like, it just, it happens. One of my first projects at LinkedIn was fixing the data model. One of my first projects at Dropbox was fixing data model. That can be really hard to fix. You can be like, oh, like that sounds simple. But you put the wrong data model in place, and then you lock it in place with a bunch of integration, and a bunch of automation, and a bunch of tooling. So by the time you get to the point where you need to roll it back, you have to roll back a lot to get back to that place. Naber:  You're duct taped, and scotch taped, and glued everything together. Jennifer Knight: Yep. So in order to do some data model work at Dropbox, it took me 12 months to rewrite a piece of code that was running on a python script under someone's desk, so that we could unlock it. There's that kind of work. The exercising the capability and the muscle around planning, planning your Systems change. You're often in an environment where everything is moving extremely rapidly, and on the process side you're iterating, and you're iterating and iterating. And then Systems don't always benefit from that rapid of iteration. There's a point where you have to be able to experiment outside the system. And when you get closer, you don't have to be perfect, but when you get closer to your ideal process, then you want to systematize it. So when a team like mine comes in, one of the big challenges we face is not actually a technical challenge. It's working with our partners to say, I know this feels like we're slowing down. We're not saying no, we're not saying stop, but we have to take a step back, and we have to once again put this in context, and figure out how we rationalize this within the system. And so that muscle, it's a challenge for everyone. It's a challenge everywhere. So that's one we face. These problems are very similar. And to your point when I'm making a decision now about where I want to go, you're living with this community and in this environment for a pretty significant portion of your day or your life, over the course of time that you're at that company. And everyone that has worked in tech knows it's not nine to five. If you've managed to pull 9-5, you're lucky. So you're probably spending most of your waking hours for several years, in that environment, and that being one that you feel supported in, feel excited to go to, that resonates with who you are. And where you are in that moment in your career and your life, I think is incredibly important. You can't always get it right, and you're going to find an environment that isn't the perfectly resonant one, but that's okay because then you learn aspects of that. And I think even there, you can take aspects of those environments, and take them with you going forward. But I agree. Especially the third or fourth time around. I think it's true. We always try to find a place where we feel might be a bit more like home. Naber:  Cool. Good one. All right, Stripe. Two things - why don't we start first with an example of a major project you're working on, and maybe you could talk through as much as you can give us without giving confidential information obviously, but what are some of the really cool major projects or one major project even to give us an idea of the type of stuff you're doing at these different companies. So you've given really good examples so far. Give us a profile of Stripe and some of the things you're working on. Jennifer Knight: Yeah, I'd say actually I'll do a little bit of a different answer than a systems answer because I always loved the technical stuff. The project that I'm working on at Stripe, and that's been the thing that's so top of mind for me over the last two years, is actually establishing the team. And establishing a team that is proactive and not reactive. Understanding what our actual needs are. So to give you a sense, my team when I joined, there were a few people in the organization who were part time working on Systems. And so the Systems were pretty underfunded, and that was one of the reasons they asked me to join. But putting language around what it actually looks like to manage these Systems well, putting language around the fact that we have huge gaps right now, and with that language also still keeping my team motivated, is that dance of being able to say we're here, we're growing, we're here to support you, and in the same breadth, I appreciate and understand that there is a laundry list of things that we were not able to do. And keeping that dialogue going, and figuring out how we grow up into Stripe as an organization, and how we try to close that, as rapidly as possible, close that gap. Which on the surface frequently looks like we aren't moving fast enough because some of these things, I mean they're around hiring, they're around team structures, they're around normalizing as a team. They're around that the thing that I just mentioned about learning how to partner with our partners, helping our partners understand planning processes. The big project that I've, there's a bunch of technical projects, there's a bunch of these kinds of negotiations, but actually the big project that I've been working on at Stripe is around that area. How do we understand how to best serve the organization? How are we getting out of this proactive mode? How do we become, I think we always are a value add, but how do we really drive that value forward? And how do we become a team that is not a handful of people who are just heads down executing, and trying to like scramble to the next thing, and are more laying the foundations and partnering to lay the foundations with our business partners? Knowing that we're a couple of, frankly, we're a couple of years behind, so we have a lot to lot to catch up on. That's really been, if I look at it across all of my teams, and what my function is doing right now. We are working on technical projects, we're delivering things every day, we're trying to move those forward. Kind of core things, core capabilities that I've discussed before are projects that we're working on. But really more than anything right now, we're focused on - how do we partner? How do we partner for success? How do we understand what we should be investing in with our partners? And how do we really surface their underlying needs versus the rapid fire day to day? Naber:  So that is really interesting. I've got a question for that. So can you explain what the end result looks like? What does euphoria look like when you get to this place where...maybe not euphoria, you get what I'm saying though... you get to this place where you're being proactive, you're working with the business on the things you should be working on, and it is working like a smooth machine that is operating on all cylinders. What does that look like, and what do you guys accomplishing when that happens? Jennifer Knight: Yeah. So maybe I'll start with what it doesn't look like. There's no world in which we're done, and there's no world in which there's no backlog, and there's actually no world in which we are doing everything the business wants you...all 10 items, every sprint. That just, that has never happened in the course of my career, regardless of the team size or anything like that. There will always be needs. There will always be needs that we can't serve immediately today. And part of that is actually the right investment model for the business overall. So we're always looking at prioritization. I think when it's smoothly, the factors that I look at are..We have transparent and clear communication with our partners. They know what they're getting, and we're delivering that in the way that we've committed to delivery. They are actively engaged and partnering, and feel good about the prioritization. They know why. They know the business impact, because they're defining it. But there's a lot of really clear communications there. And then on our side, like I said, we're delivering on time or delivering in a way that is thoughtful and accountable to the rest of the ecosystem. So we're not breaking each other, and we're not breaking the system. That actually gets quite difficult at scale. If you have five developers on a platform, and sometimes they have overlap, you have to make sure that they're all developing the Product that is your CRM or the Product that is your Marketing automation platform in a way that is conscientious. So, we are, when we're operating smoothly, we are not blowing up each other's work. That's a pretty obvious one in my mind. I think when we're operating smoothly, we are responding to the right things, with the right urgency, in the right SLA's. So this is one of the reasons we end up with a Run function. Not every ask has to be treated like a project, but not every ask can be treated like a quick win. So you want to have varying SLA's and varying approaches, and when we're running smoothly we have an intake process that allows us to triage those, and be very quickly responsive where it's appropriate, and be thoughtful and measured in our approach, where that's appropriate. But not trying to do a one size fits all. Those are the core tenants that I look to when I think about how my team is running smoothly. I think that maybe one that we don't talk about with the business as much, is we also spend some time thinking about the technical foundations, and how those potentially need to evolve because our SaaS partners are evolving different features, and giving us different capabilities. So maybe we set up an integration one way four years ago because that was what Zendesk allowed us to do. And that might be really difficult for us to maintain and manage. And on the business side, it may look like it just works. And on our side, it may be a ton of toil and work to keep it alive. And Zendesk releases a new feature that simplifies that. How do we also continuously bring technical, underlying improvements, infrastructure improvements, into our roadmap. And then when we're working really well, socializing those up with our partners so they really appreciate why us doing that work actually improves their world and makes us more efficient together. Those are the high level things that I look for when I think about my team operating well. And like I said though, the work will never stop. It will always be there. Which is the exciting and fun part. So really it's about transparency, and process, and prioritization. Naber:  Nice. Awesome answer. Thanks so much, Jenn. So last question, and then we'll wrap. Okay. I've got one rapid fire question for you as well. So, one of your many superpowers, that you've alluded to a little bit, throughout your answers, but is...As you're going through every single one of these projects and all of your decisions, thinking as an end to end process thinker, where you're keeping the big picture in mind while you're able to zoom in and out of the details and the different requirements, and how do all these things stick together over an entire project over a sustained period of time. How do you bring stakeholders along with you in that journey? Because you're saying no a lot, you're saying yes a lot, you're saying no a lot more than you're saying yes. And you're also telling them, hey, please wait. Being a Sales and Marketing operator myself, I know that we could be inpatient every once in a while. So how do you bring stakeholders along in those conversations, and what are some of the best practices that you use for communicating with stakeholders? Because you're so good at that naturally, but that is not necessarily a Sales of Marketing operators forte as they're thinking about, just what they want to do for that quarter or that half of that year. Jennifer Knight: Yeah. Yeah. So I've had a couple of different approaches. I think once again, this is an interesting one...That you say it's a strength that I can think that way. And sometimes one of my weaknesses of getting it out of my mind, and onto a piece of paper. And so what I've gotten better at over time is making sure...everyone who knows me knows I love a whiteboard. I actually don't think that most people in these complex scenarios, there's a few of them that can, if you describe it with words, actually can follow along. I'm someone that, if someone starts, if I focus extremely hard and someone is describing something, I can usually think that I've understood. But sometimes when they put it on the board, I realized actually I didn't. So one of the techniques that I use, and I actually encourage everyone on my team to do, and I encourage our partners to do, is write on the board. Write your process on the board. On our side we will write then the system on the board. And let's all look at it, and then talk about the areas that we don't understand, or talk about the areas where we want clarification. In our side, when I start to think, okay, here's our end to end process, now you have all these Systems. Helping people come along, part of it is by laying out, here's the areas that maybe we're gonna be able to accelerate quickly, and here's the areas where I either don't have complete control - I'm going to have to negotiate with a partner, or is technically complex. So let's look at the whole thing end to end. But starting that visual from the process. And it doesn't have to be elegant. It doesn't have to follow all the fancy flowchart, actual diagrams. I do love that stuff sometimes, but get a pen out, sit down together, and make sure that you both are actually speaking the same language. And then that your priorities align. So I might get really passionate about some part of the process that somewhere else I've seen be really interesting, and that might not really be what you're passionate about. Or I might be able to bring some insight because I've seen this at a larger company. I can say, hey, two years, we don't have to face it today, but two years from now we're gonna need these kinds of controls. I'm telling you that I want to build this foundation in today because I'm looking forward. Do we agree that that's an okay thing to do? But even to get it out of your mind, get it onto a board. That's a huge one. Then, like I said, on the transparency side for our team, we have milestones. We are sending out sometimes weekly or biweekly updates on how we're progressing against those phases of the project. We're checking back in what has changed. Have our priorities changed? Have some more micro points within the plan, do we need to adjust? Have we learned something new that's going to shift something out? Those are the muscles that we exercise. But I think the first and most important thing is - can we all get in a room, and can we look at this thing end to end, and do we actually, are we speaking the same language? And I'm not going to say it verbally to you. I'm going to show you. And then pull out a pen, and mark it up, and tell me where it's crazy, or tell me where it doesn't work, or tell me where your world is different. And that way we on my side of the house, have the context of where you're coming from. And you on the business side, can understand how we're thinking about the approach. And no one is surprised. That would be the tactic that I think about a lot. Naber:  Man...I wish I could wrap that thought up and hug it because I loved it so much. You and I have a similar brain in some respects, and I'm loving that answer. Okay, last question. We're done with going through all these different examples, all this information. As you wearing like a tweed jacket and a hat right now, because you just professored everyone with all of your knowledge. So, one rapid fire question. So, I ask this to people on their birthdays every single year. It's not your birthday, but I'm asking anyways. Our audience has heard me say that a hundred times, apologies, but I'm explaining for the guests because they don't know. Maybe they've listened to all of them, nope they haven't. Most important learning or lesson you've acquired professionally in the last 12 months? Jennifer Knight: I would say, I've always been a patient person. But in the last 12 months, I've actually gotten much better at learning how to be both patient and persistent. Which is kind of a weird abstract learning, I'll give it that. But in environments where a lot of changes driven by influence or cross team collaboration, and everybody is under a lot of strainm under resourced in their own way...Figuring out how to navigate that in a way that continuously feels constructive, is not something that I would say was my strength in the past. I am definitely someone who likes to get things done, and I'm a bit principled in my approach. But same thing happens to my team. People are coming to me and saying, Jenn, can you do this thing? Can you do this thing? And I'm saying, no, we have to put it in this roadmap. Learning how to be the customer on that side. And how do I navigate that? And how do I continue to emphasize the importance of something or being respectful and patient of the process that I'm in? And being okay with that patient. Part of it is with my partners, and part of it for me is actually with myself. It's knowing that when

Guest: Nick DeMarinis - Director, Enterprise Growth @WeWork (Formerly @LinkedIn, @Yahoo) Guest Background: Nick DeMarinis is Director, Enterprise Growth for WeWork based at their HQ in New York City. Previously he spent 13 years in the technology industry with Yahoo and LinkedIn. At LinkedIn, he held various leadership roles across both North America and Asia-Pacific while based in Hong Kong.  Nick holds a Bachelor's Degree from Saint Leo University in Tampa, Florida and a Master's Degree in International Business from St. John's University in Rome, Italy.  On a personal note, he has identical twin boys that just turned one, and prays that one day the New York Knicks will be relevant again. Guest Links: LinkedIn | Twitter Episode Summary: In this episode, we cover: - The Trusted Advisor Equation - The Numerator, The Denominator - Recognition Mindset & Method - Gratitude, Strengths - The Power of Storytelling - Your Personal Board of Directors - Nick's Go-to Coaching Framework - The GROW Model Full Interview Transcript: Naber:  Hello friends around the world. My name is Brandon Naber. Welcome to The Naberhood, where we have switched on, fun discussions with some of the most brilliant, successful, experienced, talented and highly skilled Sales and Marketing minds on the planet, from the world's fastest growing companies. Enjoy! Naber:  Hey everybody. Today we've got Nick DeMarinis on the show. Nick is a Director of Enterprise growth for WeWork (a Pre-IPO Unicorn with a valuation of $47 billion). Nick is based at their headquarters in New York City. Previously he spent 13 years in the technology industry with Yahoo! (a $4.5 billion acquisition by Verizon) and LinkedIn (a $27 billion acquisition by Microsoft and they also IPO back in 2011). At LinkedIn, Nick held various leadership roles across both North America and Asia Pacific, while based in Hong Kong. Nick holds a bachelor's degree from Saint Leo University in Tampa, Florida and a Master's degree in International Business from St John's University in Rome, Italy. On a personal note, he has identical twin boys that just turned one, and he prays that one day the New York Knicks will be relevant again. Here we go. Naber:  Mr Nick D, in the house. Good to have you on the show, man. Thanks so much for coming. Naber:  Naber, anything for you my man. Wow, anything, I like that. Don't. Tempt. Me. So, I am so excited to have you on. You're a world-class dude. So many people in my inter and outer circle know who you are, have crossed paths with you, have worked with you, have worked for you, you've worked for, or just some sort of combination thereof, and there's just not enough nice things to say about you as a dude, let alone, as a professional. So, I'm excited to have you on. So one of the things I want to do is, we're going to jump through some of your personal life, a little bit about where you grew up, how you grew up, what you were like, all the way through school. And then what we'll hop into is, the bulk of what we'll talk about today, which is your professional experience. And both the strengths and learnings you've gained along the way, but some of your superpowers that you are just top 1% in the world at, and talk about some of the frameworks and principles that you think about. And then we'llget into some of the methods as well, and some of the process and examples. Sound okay? Nick DeMarinis: That sounds great. Excited to be here. Naber:  Awesome man. So basketball player, ice hockey, soccer, Jesuit high school, Tampa, Saint Leo, St John's in Rome. Hong Kong, New York, identical twin boys. We'll talk about all of it. What I want to hear as we go through that is, let's first talk about maybe four or five minutes on how you grew up. What was the life of Nick D as a kid? What were you like? Tell me about some of your interests, go through school a little bit, and tell me about some of your hobbies. And I'll interrupt you, hopefully not too rudely, to ask you maybe a little bit more detail. Nick DeMarinis: Yeah, totally. Well, before we kick off, thanks again for inviting me. The minute I got your email, I was excited to see what was in there and to reconnect. I know we've always stayed in touch, but it's been awhile since we able to connect, and really talk through what's been going on in life. And as you mentioned, you're putting this together to pay forward all of the learnings, and the coaching you've had, and I'm excited to do that as well. And every day I learn more and more, and it's just exciting to share all of my experiences and people that helped me along the way. And as you said, it starts for me at a very young age, right? Where and how I grew up. My parents grew up in New York. They met when they were 15, got married and they were 19, had their first kid at 20, and then had six children. Fast track six children. Irish, Italian family. We drink with one hand, we talk with the other. And you know, my dad was in Sales his whole career, right? My Dad was Sales his whole career. And he always valued relationships, and he was very successful, end to end and his career on the basis of relationships. Me being one of six kids, growing up, we're always very competitive. Who's the first one to get to the bathroom in the morning, take a shower? I was also a middle child, so I had to be pretty diplomatic in my approach, right? I couldn't be this authority as the oldest, and I couldn't be like, Hey, I can get away with anything. I was a baby. I kind of had to play both ends of the spectrum. So I learned that early on of how to manage relationships up, and down, and sideways. We just love sports. We love being competitive, all of us. And I never really got too deep in a single sport because I just loved the ideas of other sports, and trying those out, and getting good at those. And in particular I just love team sports, right? I think individual sports were fun, but I loved the idea of going into battle with others, with the team behind you. And you know, although I grew up in Florida, unfortunately my father raised me a New York sports fan. So I had to adopt the New York Knicks and the New York jets, which are horrible sports teams. Naber:  I saw Stephen A. Smith's video of his, basically a nervous breakdown, or his breakdown he had on TV. And I thought of you immediately. I felt miserable for you in that moment. Nick DeMarinis: Yeah. Yeah, it's been bad. But you know what it's taught me...and through my dad's professional career, through their marriage of over 50 years, through being in New York Knicks fan, as hilarious as it is this idea of loyalty. There's been a lot of lessons around loyalty through...and it might be tough times for a very long time, and there's gonna be ups and downs. But, that's what I learned a lot about growing up. It's just the value of family relationships, and loyalty, as much as it can hurt some times. Naber:  That's an amazing lesson to learn. I mean, it give back to you so much over time as well, loyalty over time. Nick DeMarinis: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Naber:  Cool. So, what was the first thing you did to make money? Nick DeMarinis: First thing I did to make money. I sorted through a bunch of baseball cards that I inherited from my older brothers, and I went through the Beckett magazines that showed how much these cards were worth. And I tallied all that up, and I thought I was going to make thousands of dollars off these cards. But I was kind of talked out of it to hold onto those as an investment for later in life. So that's not how I made money. I thought that that's how I was going to become rich. First way I made money, it was really concession stand at at the little league field. Spent a lot of time as a young kid playing baseball, and then once it got to that certain age, I think it was 13, which is when they allowed you to actually work the concession stand, and sell M&M's, making whatever the minimum wage was, that was it. So yeah, it was a very efficient way to make money because as soon as my shift was over, it's back to the field, back to playing ball. Naber:  Nice. Love it. Love it. So your middle child, you're going through school, you're selling M&Ms, and you're playing a ton of sports, competing on first to the shower, first to the bathroom, first to the dinner table, first inside if everyone's outside playing, totally get it. One of five kids myself, so that rings a bell for me. So when you were in high school, tell me a little bit about some of the things you're interested in outside of sports, and then we can get into why you went to Saint Leo, and what that transition was like. Nick DeMarinis: Yeah, I mean, it's funny, it was really all about sports in high school for me. A funny enough, it's funny to say, but I went to an all boys, Jesuit high school, right? So I was also really interested in girls. There was a sister school nearby, but we just didn't have a lot of interaction. So it was like, you're at that age of adolescence throughout your teenager years, and it's this fascination around your first date, and what does prom look, and all that fun stuff. But outside of that, what I was really interested in is the world outside of where I grew up. And I was really fascinated about New York, about where my parents grew up and I didn't, I grew up in Florida and I visited. I was really fascinated about where my grandparents came from in Italy. I was really fascinated about like, what's outside this world of Florida, of Tampa where I grew up. And I know that's kind of the case for a lot of people. So, throughout high school I really started to think about that, using sports as a way to be able to maybe travel, or get to another state, another country, and then think about that as I get into college. I made the decision to stay in school in Florida, nearby for a variety of personal and professional reasons. But then, as I've gone through University, that's where I decided to make the leap to study abroad in Italy, which really eye opening for me see the rest of the world outside of where I grew up. Naber:  Cool. Love it. That's a great transition. You make the jump to St Leo. Why Saint Leo? Tell us what it was like, maybe a couple of minutes about what life was for you in school in Uni. Nick DeMarinis: Yeah, totally. I don't have the greatest story actually about Saint Leo. I was a hockey player in Florida, and I was pretty good, in the state of Florida. You compare me against kids that grew up in Michigan, and I was definitely below average. But I wanted to play college hockey, and we we're on a few recruiting trips, and we decided that really the cost of schooling at some of these Northeastern schools versus the in-state tuition in Florida...I had to make a call whether I want to enjoy university and the life that comes with being a student versus playing a college sport, and struggling with tuition costs, and being at the mercy of 5AM practices. And I made a call there. And Saint Leo was a nice balance. Had smaller classroom sizes, it wasn't University of Florida or FSU, which you're in an auditorium. I wanted a smaller, more intimate environment where I could just get to know my professors, get pretty hands on with the curriculum, and that's how I went to Saint Leo, and enjoyed every minute of it. Naber:  Nice. Awesome. So, you had a life changing experience when you studied over in Rome. It's obviously kicked off your, not just to quench your appetite, but really over time when you live enough places you turn adventure into lifestyle, and then you just kinda never go back. But I'm guessing that was the start and the first step of that for you. So tell us about heading over to Rome to study there, and then we'll hop into your first role after school. Nick DeMarinis: Yeah, I mean, I couldn't have said it any better. That absolutely was a turning point in my life where I turned adventure into a lifestyle. And that adventure and overcoming it, as tough as it felt in the moment, has been the foundation of how I think about all future challenges and future adventures, as small and big as they are. Because for a lot of us growing up in the US, or anywhere in the world, for you to branch outside of your comfort zone, into a new world, with this new language, it can be really scary in the moment. But I decided, it was my senior year of college, and there was no time better than to make that leap. And I had roots in Italy, right? It's where family came from. So, there was a lot of self interest, and what I wanted to accomplish and get out of that experience, so that's what I did. So I made the move there. Funny enough, on day one, I met a girl there who was all studying in the same program, who's now my wife. Naber:  Whoa. That's how you guys met? Awesome. Nick DeMarinis: That's how we met. There was another girl that went to the same school and I asked her how's your living situation? I'm living with five girls. She said, I'll be there in two minutes. And when I got there I was introduced to Diana, and that was my future wife. So that was the best part of that experience. But I think outside of that as well, it was just, just opened up my eyes to, there's another world out, there's other cultures, there's another way of living life and doing business. And I enjoyed it so much in that study abroad program, which was one semester, I basically stayed there, and then applied to graduate school. Saint John's had a program there. Ended up staying in Italy for almost two years. I really just wanted to learn more business. I wanted to learn a language. I wanted to not just have this four month point in life. I wanted to embed myself. So it it was a great journey, expensive journey, but a great one. Naber:  Yeah. I mean, the Euro's not friendly to the USD at that point either. Great story about how you got how you and Diana met, and obviously now you have two beautiful identical twin boys, Luca and Max - is that right? We'll get into that a little bit later. I don't want to get you on a tangent here because you're going to turn into #prouddad. So you come back from Rome, walk us through your first couple of roles up through the point where you're going to make a jump to LinkedIn, and we'll pause there and ask you a couple of questions. But you had some really interesting, good, significant learning experiences before you got to LinkedIn. Let's walk through those. Nick DeMarinis: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So, what's not on my profile is I did work on Wall Street for two days. Actually it was a day and a half I think. When I was going through college, a little bit of a direction from my father was get into finance. You're going to make a good living, it's going to be stable. That should be your path, and you're pretty good at it. And that's what I studied, and I wasn't really sure if that was my path, it's hard to really understand until you get into the professional workforce. So I moved to New York, I worked on Wall Street. It was a small commodities broker. And I don't know how I realized this, but I realized pretty quickly it was not for me. Maybe it was this specific company, maybe it was the environment, it. I just got an idea that I don't think this is right, and my gut tells me that. I remember quitting. I called my father and I said, you're going to be really disappointed with me, but I just don't think this is the industry for me, I don't think this is the path, I need to do some searching here. And he was so supportive. He was like, I'm so proud that you've figured this out so quickly - to fail quickly is this thing that is really hard to do. So I did that, and went back to the drawing board. This is the first idea that I had around really building this personal Board of Directors. I started to think through, okay, who can help me figure out what is the industry I should be in? What is the job? What function should I be looking for? And I got some really good advice from some people in my corner. And I landed a job at a place called University Sports Publications. It married two things that I thought I'd be really passionate about, which is Sales and speaking to people, and sports, right? So, that was a good experience. It was kind of a boiler room setting. It was a lot of phone calls. It was a lot of rejection, you're selling advertising and it was Game Day sports programs to contractors and subcontractors. So it wasn't as glorious as the job description sounded, but what it taught me was resilience, right? This idea of following the Sales structure, of overcoming objectives, of the value of sharing peers and name dropping others in the industry that are using that. So it taught me a lot about the frameworks of a Sales process, and how to be resilient in that, if you have the right solution. So kind of sucked in the moment, but it taught me, taught me a lot there. Again, the culture wasn't something I was really looking for. It was very, very results driven, very cut throat. And I got a referral to get an interview at Yahoo!. And had a few interviews there, and really felt that was a company that more aligned what I was looking for in the technology space. And Yahoo!, the culture at the time, was way more accommodating to my type of personality. And yeah, joined Yahoo! in 2007. Naber:  Awesome. Walk us through the roles you had at Yahoo!. You were there for about four years. So walk us through a couple of those roles, and then I've got a few questions on some of the things that you learned while you were there. Nick DeMarinis: Yeah, so the roles at Yahoo!, it was primarily different Sales roles. So I was either selling recruitment advertising to recruitment agencies or to corporates. There was a little bit of an Account Executive, so selling to first time customers, bringing them on board, a lot of prospecting, a lot of Sales Development, a lot of cold outreach. And then later on in my career, Yahoo! was more around relationship management, and how do we help them, and make sure they're having success using our solutions, and make sure they're happy customers, and we're leveraging that to the best of it's ability. So that that was mostly the crux of my time in the four years at Yahoo!. Naber:  Nice. And what do you think was the number one thing that you think you've learned at Yahoo!? Nick DeMarinis: The number one thing I learned at Yahoo! would probably be, it's the value of your boss. I had some really great bosses at Yahoo!. I think, before that, my bosses were this dictator type figures. and the bosses I had at Yahoo! were very much more around my leadership philosophy, which is way more democratic, right? Anytime we were making decisions, we're thinking about a way to approach the business, or approach our customers, it was very much involving everybody. And there was always a sense of authority when they needed to have it, right? If we had a healthy the debate around something, that person also also knew when to come in and say, great, I value all the feedback, and this is where this is how we're going to move forward. But, really took the time to value everyone's opinion, and have it a team approach in terms of how we solve any types of questions, any types of problems. Naber:  Nice one. Good. Okay, let's hop into LinkedIn. I think actually, I'm going to save my other question for after you get through this. So walk us through the journey you had at LinkedIn over the next few minutes on, the roles that you had, the jumps that you made, and what you were responsible for in each one. Maybe three or four minutes. Nick DeMarinis: Yeah, absolutely. So jump to LinkedIn, right place, right time. Yahoo! HotJobs, which is the property I was working for, was bought by Monster that was going through a transition I wasn't incredibly happy about, and LinkedIn was opening up a new office on the east coast. I got introduced to James Volpentest and Scott Nelson. And we had dinner, and they were looking to build, a Sales team in New York. So I was part of the first Sales team in New York. There was about 12 or 15 of us in a serviced office. And and that was an incredible journey. At a tim, LinkedIn had about 80 million members. And we were really bringing on our earliest customers in terms of using this professional network as a platform to find passive talent. So that was a Sales role, pure hunter, selling the dream about what this professional platform was going to become, and how it can help companies solve a lot of their hiring needs. So the biggest jump from there moving to Hong Kong. So, you want me to go ahead and take you into that decision as well? Yeah, totally. So, I realized pretty quickly on at LinkedIn, this is going to be a global platform, no doubt about it. It's going to global network that a lot of people in professionals would really benefit from around creating economic opportunity. And we started to think about opening offices, and as you know as well, opening offices all around the world, in Asia, and Europe and going back to that adventure of living in Italy, I thought, how can I parlay that into an adventure somewhere else? Maybe a bit more of an intelligent risk for me. And I was thinking about different offices. There's Dublin, there's Sydney, and I wanted something a little bit more of a challenge. So we started talking internally about Hong Kong. And it was a very strategic market for us, as a gateway into China. And we wanted to be that first professional network into China. So, I spoke to my Manager time, I said, what does it take? We need people there. And this is about a year before that. And his advice was, just be great at your job right now, and then when the time is right, we can discuss that opportunity. So, that's what I did. I just put my head down. I tried to master the role I was currently in. I wanted to be very, very clear about, what value am I going to bring to a new market in terms of bringing that LinkedIn headquarters culture and DNA, and making sure that that's being spread through new markets and new cultures. And made the jump to Hong Kong in 2013. Naber:  Awesome, man. That's great. And tell us what you're responsible for in Hong Kong, and and how your role grew a little bit. Nick DeMarinis: Yeah. So initially a little bit of everything. I think of the role as, you're helping hire for the team, you're helping bring on your early customers, you're helping define your early culture. You're doing a little bit everything. And we were all doing it together. It wasn't a figurehead of the office, it a few of us that come together to drive that. So, I help bring on some of our earlier customers, help make a lot of decisions around our hiring and building out the team, setting some of the traditions around our office such as new hire introductions, and special talents, and costumes. Just things that lightened the mood that are consistent with the way LinkedIn does things. And of course as the business grew and the team grew, that evolved into a leadership position. And I was raised my hand of, hey, I'm ready to be a utility player in leadership of where you need help. So, at that time we were thinking about growing our teams in Southeast Asia. So I started to manage Account Executives in Singapore, and Japan, and start to build our business and build our customer base in those markets. Which was a great experience for me. Just being able to manage the remote teams, and all the challenges that comes with that, as well as managing multiple cultures. In Japan specifically, managing teams that hardly speak the same language, right? And it's really hard to be able to add a lot of value, even when I go on customer engagements, when it's speaking a different language as well. So I had to really think about where's the areas I'm going to be able to add value? A lot of that for me was like, removing a lot of internal barriers for them. I can't help them in how they're speaking to their customer, but I can help remove the process, and remove some of the friction that's helping them get their job done. So that was a lot of my learnings in terms of like, I gotta be really clear about where I'm going to be able to add value, and where I'm not right, when you're managing different teams and different cultures. And then, towards the end of my time there, it was managing more of a holistic team across the Hong Kong office. So, end to end from Sales Development, to Global Accounts, and how I brought those teams together, and I just went really deep within the Hong Kong market specifically, across different teams in different segments. Naber:  Awesome. It's it is an amazing journey, and you were doing it so early in the life cycle of people moving to international offices from one or another us hub. So from San Francisco, from Chicago, from New York, and you did early in that time, where you didn't necessarily see or have a playbook in order to be able to do that. It's kind of like, figure it out as you go and learn with other people as they go around setting up some of these offices, especially, in Asia. You've sold for a long time, and helped sell for a long time. I know from hearing from other people how hands on and close to the frontline you are with being able to help out with your Sales reps, and teaching and coaching them on how to sell, best practices, etc. And one of the things that I've heard both from you, and from other people, is this concept of becoming a trusted advisor. So when you're talking to your sales team, both at WeWork and LinkedIn, and you're giving advice, tell us a little bit about the concept of being a trusted advisor, and how you explain that to people. Nick DeMarinis: Yeah, absolutely. I couldn't be more passionate about the equation that comes with being a trusted advisor. And I think some people snooze off as soon as I start to give them an equation. But hear me out, hear me out. This idea of trusted advisor, it gets thrown around quite a bit, right? And there's different definitions, but I think this one I really subscribed to, and I really hammer it home as I think about our relationships, our Sales process, qualifying deals, qualifying our Accounts. And I think it's really telling as we break down the different parts. So, if you think about a trusted advisor, there's a numerator, and there's a denominator. Now in the numerator, there's really three parts to how you become a trusted advisor to your client. And that can be a client that you've worked with forever, or a client that you just met yesterday, right? And the first is credibility. Are you credible in what you're speaking about? The industry, your product, how it's going to perform, right? Like, you need to be able to get to be a subject matter expert on what you're sharing to your client. And this goes with sharing to candidates as well, and hiring, there's a lot of ways to apply this. So credibility is one. I think, on reflection for me and we work, I've been here four and a half months, that's an area of development for me. I'm in a new industry in real estate. There's a lot going on. We're transforming the industry. I'm not as credible as I want to be yet, and I'm taking a lot of steps to be able to build that. The second part of the equation is around reliability. So you know that's as simple as, are you following through with what you say you're going to do? Are you delivering on your solutions? Are you saying, Hey, I can get you that proposal by Friday at 5:00 PM - are you doing that? For me personally as well, if people do what they say they're going to do, then, you know that shows reliability, right? And the minute people start saying, we're going to do this, we're gonna do that, and they don't follow through with that, you start to lose not only your credibility, you lose your trust and becoming a reliable individual. Lastly...so we have credibility and knowing your subject, we have reliability, which is you're going to do what you say you're going to do. And last is around intimacy. I think this is the most important. I couldn't be more passionate about the idea that people buy from people, right? I do it all the time, and there's a lot of value and things that I buy, but I really like to know who I'm buying from, and why I'm buying from an individual, and getting to know that side of things. So I think a lot about intimacy, and how we approach our customers, right? How well do we know them? How well do we know how this is going to impact their personal lives. Do we know their dog's name? The more we can get to know, and get to intimate with our customers, and whether that's someone that's buying from us, or we're going to be hiring them, there's just that much stronger of a bond, that much stronger of a relationship there. And you can even ask for favors sometimes, right, as you get stuck in certain areas based upon that relationship. Naber:  Nick , let me ask as a question. Do you have go to categories that are attached to people's hearts, so that you can get closer to them, or more intimate with them more quickly? Do you have certain categories that you go after where you're like, ask questions about this, this, this, this, and this? Nick DeMarinis: A lot of it comes down a lot of it comes to research, right? Looking at whether it's there LinkedIn profiles, or checking them in the news, just finding out what they care about, right? And making sure that I can align that with the intimacy factor, right? If someone cares about wolf conservation, I've adopted rescue dogs from Hong Kong. There's maybe some parallels there. And just trying to get to know why they care about that. Family is an easy one, right? Me having twin boys. We did an Executive event last week in Chicago at the Rolling Stones Concert, and a lot of them had families, right? And I just wanted to really get to know about their families, their kids, the schools that they're looking to attend, and just really got to know them on an intimate level around their families. And I was able to share my own experience right now as my kids are very young and growing up. So there's not really specific categories. I just try to do a lot of research and understand their personal lives, what's going on, what do they care about? Naber:  No, that's good. That's good. All right. Sorry. Keep going. Nick DeMarinis: Yeah. So on top of all of that, in terms of trusted advisor, there's the denominator which is self orientation. So I think people can be very credible, they can be super reliable, and you can be very intimate, and really getting to know your customers. But the minute that self orientation is showing really high, that there's a lot more in it for me that I'm trying to gain out of it. That starts to ruin a bit of the trusted advisor type of relationship that you have with the customer. So, I think a lot of people try to focus too much on on the top, and then they don't think enough about self orientation and what's in it for them. And that's sometimes starts to shine at certain moments, which can really ruin the equation there. So I think that that's really important - taking self orientation out of the equation. If you're solving the right thing for your client, if you're incredibly reliable and intimate, they should be able to want to move forward regardless of what you're wanting to gain out of that. Naber:  I love the equation. Anytime someone breaks down something into an equation, or a framework, or a data driven approach, or something along those lines, I think people's ears perk up because it's repeatable, and you can also pass it on a more easily as well. So you've managed a lot of Sales teams. You've hired a lot of people. One of the things that I've heard about you from a lot of other people as well, is the power of coaching. And I know that you've gone through certification with Marshall Goldsmith, and I'd love to learn a little bit about, and have the audience to learn a little bit about some of the top learnings and the top takeaways you had from that Marshall Goldsmith training and learning process. And also how you apply those, maybe with some examples that you use across your teams. Nick DeMarinis: Yeah, absolutely. So yeah, Marshall Goldsmith was just an incredible investment that I was fortunate to be able to go through, go through that workshop, a world renowned coach. And there's a couple things that I've learned from that Executive course. And Marshall Goldsmith, his coaching framework is really centered around stakeholders, right? I think of coaching in two ways...there's firsthand observations, objective observations, and being able to coach that way about what's observed. Not about how I feel that person did, but I observed this, and I'll talk about that a little bit later. Marshall Goldsmith is really around, perception is reality. Let's find out what do your your stakeholders think about what you can do to improve, and perception is reality there. And let's use feed forward to be able to help an individual improve on that. `So here's how he breaks it down. I think, first around coaching is, making sure that that individual picks the one or two growth areas that they want to focus on, put that in their court, right? What do you want to focus on to get better at that is important to both, you, but also aligns with your organization, right? So let's say for example, it's managing through change, right? That's important for me. It's also important for our organization. This place is changing every three minutes. The next is, next is to lead the change and the coaching through stakeholders. So really involving your directs, your peers, your bosses. There's this idea of Marshall Goldsmith, which is, capturing feed forward rather than feedback. So, if I'm asking you to give me some feed forward on managing through change, I wouldn't say Brandon give me some feedback on how I've managed change in the past. We don't care about the past right now. I would say, Brandon, give me some suggestions on how I can get better at managing change moving forward. And it's a really cool, powerful tool around feed forward, which is like, you're we're not reflecting on what's happened, you're reflecting on what could be beneficial to us moving forward? And that's really the crux of it. The individual that's being coached then takes that, they've identified they want to get better at, they're getting feed forward from the people around them that they care about. And again, it's this idea of perception is reality. Whether they're right or wrong, these are people that have suggestions for someone to get better. Perception is reality. Let's take that. Let's put an action plan together. And then part of the Goldsmith plan as well, is to regularly check in to see how that person's performing moving forward. Naber: How do you build in the importance of recognition? And how do you think about recognizing others when you know it's both one the right thing to do, but two you may not want to do too much. Because a lot of Managers, they put a premium on recognition so they don't do it maybe as often as they should, or if they just don't do it that often at all. So how do you think about recognition? Because I've heard a lot of people both on your team, as well mentees of yours in the past, say I learned a lot about recognition from Nick. How do you think about it? What's your framework? Nick DeMarinis: Yeah, I'm probably in the camp that there is no such thing as too much recognition. I think that there's so much success that individuals and teams have because of the confidence that they're getting from other individuals. And whether it's a small task or a large task, if they're hearing that people are grateful for what they did, or they're proud of what they did, I think confidence is really what drives people forward, and creating that type of environment. So I try to build in recognition in so many facets, right? Whether in the way people lead, in the way they deliver results, in the short interactions that they have with individuals... I try to bake it into to my daily life. And whether that's a quick email, or over Slack, or whether it's a phone call...There's something that that I do every Friday, which is a 6:00 PM recurring calendar invite, which is actually more centered around gratitude. So it's more around, rather than recognizing an individual for what they've done. I try to do that as I go throughout my day, and it spurs at different moments. I don't really have a framework around that. But I do have a framework around making sure that I thank at least one or two people every Friday at the end of the week for what they've done. So whether that's an individual that had handled it difficult customer call, and I want to thank them for at least stepping up and showing leadership. Or for example, last Friday, I sent a note to a peer of mine who was really instrumental in helping me ramp here at the company, was really selfless in his time and walking me through the internal relationships, and how to think about now they gave him the company. And without that I probably would continue to be lost here at WeWork. So that's a few ways I think about it. I think recognition, it's never too much. I think that we should be recognizing small things, little things as much as possible. In my mind, I feel that just continues to build confidence in individuals, for them to continue to push themselves forward. And then I think about, gratitude as really powerful recognition. Not just for those that are making an impact to me and to the team, but also it feels good for my side to really be able to show that the impact that they're having on me, it's really meaningful. Naber:  Yeah. Love it. And two questions on that one. One, how are you doing this? Is it email? Is it verbally? Is it walking over to their desk? Is it a one on one? Is it closed door conversation? Is it in front of the team? There's so many different ways to do this. How do you think about that, and how are you doing this? What's your strategy around it? Nick DeMarinis: Yeah, so mostly around a recommendation, right? Naber:  Yeah, exactly. Nick DeMarinis: Yeah. So I try, I try to 100% of the time to do it in person. I'm a big believer in, I think this goes with every type of interaction, I try to be very, very conscious and mindful of the setting and the atmosphere, right? So around recognition, I try to make sure, whether it's in a walking meeting, or outside, or try to have it over...it's gotta be in person, for me. And it could be just hey, let's take a walk to the lobby of our office. I try to have it in some type of a warm, casual type type of environment. So mostly the recognition is always in person. I feel like it's easy for us to be able to use online platforms, and texts, and whatnot. But be able to look somebody in the eyes, and be able to tell them wholeheartedly...to be able to speak to them and really have that moment where, hey, you, you've made a difference, you made an impact. Whether it's small or large, it's important that we share this in person, and I thank you for that. That, 100% of the time in my mind, needs to happen in person. It's really easy for us to be able to use so many different communication platforms, and ways to connect. Being able to do that in person is for me is really powerful. Naber:  Nice. Good one. And my follow-up to that is, what have you seen is the pull through of that? What happens when you do that right? What are the next couple of actions, or what have you seen as some of the results from the people that you're saying thank you to, and your being grateful towards verbally, out loud? What does that do for both, them, for the team? What's the environment that it creates? So that people, that are going to be more conscious in the audience of doing this, like you mentioned it, what can they expect to be the output? Nick DeMarinis: Yeah, absolutely. That's a great question. One of my superpowers is positivity, right? So, I'm always trying to index on bringing in a positive atmosphere, positive feedback, as much as possible. And I'm also a big believer in focusing on strengths, not weaknesses. There was a Harvard Business Review podcast around constructive feedback is kind of pointless, and that we should be focusing on what people do great, and focused on their strengths. So, when I think about recognition, for example, there was an individual a couple weeks ago that really managed this Sales process in a short time frame really, really well. It was really tight around the beginning of discovery, understanding what the client wants to achieve, to understanding the deal leverage that we had in order to be able to accomplish it in a short period. And I recognized that individual, and what I'm hoping that the pull through that I'm hoping to get out of that is, I asked the individual to share that forward. Like, this is a strength of yours. I want to recognize you because you did a great job at that. How do we scale this goodness? How do you take that and share this experience? Share your deal review with other members around you. There's so much that people can learn from you. And what I hope to get out of that, which happens a lot of times, is that person is then...there's a ripple effect around the benefits of what that person accomplished, and they're getting so much confidence from that. They're like, wow, I did something really well. I'm able to share a lot of individuals.; And they're going to take that forward into their next actions, their next couple of days of work, with so much confidence around, I did something great, I was able to share that with other individuals, and I know how to bring this forward to the rest of my week. So those are a couple of things that I think about in terms of recognition is like, let's focus on the strengths. How do we take whatever you did really good at, how do we share that? How do we scale that across others? And recognition for me, and I think it's always to inject this amount of confidence in individuals that they can then just continue to find success in whatever they're doing, moving forward. Naber:  Love it. Love it. Good example too of the pull through. Thank you for that. And you alluded to this already...When you're thinking about developing others and also developing yourself in navigating your own professional development, you talk about focusing on strengths. Explain your mindset on that. How do you think about focusing on strengths? And how do you make sure that when you're talking to and giving advice to people around their professional development, their career development, how should they think about the strengths?...Sorry, How should they think about focusing on strengths as a strategy for moving forward? Nick DeMarinis: Yeah. So, there's a couple parts to that. I think there's a lot of different tests out there to figure out what your strengths are, and how does that compare to some of your weaknesses, and how do you think about the two of those? There's Clifton Strengths Finder, which I think is a really cool one that I to use with my team sometimes. There's also, Travis Carson runs Marketforce, and it really helps you understand your style, your style indicator. So for example, for me and my market force style, I'm pretty balanced, but I'm moreso power. And the strengths in that for business for me are sustaining relationships over time, and very focused on tangible results. So, whatever platform someone wants to use to figure out what their strengths are, I think they should harness that and figure out how they bring that to life in their daily environment. When it comes to weaknesses, I think that's just how you compliment each other, right? If I'm strong in certain ares, but...I'm probably not that good in terms of process, and driving process across a Sales team or a sales org, I look to be able to buddy up with somebody that's really good at that, right? So that's how I think about the two. I'm working on that right now, and there's a few individuals that I work with in my leadership group that are really good at thinking about structuring a Sales process, and thinking about daily inputs, and pipeline, and what that means. I'm just not good at that right now. So I try to learn as much from that individual, but continue to focus on my strengths, which is building connections, and building meaningful relationships, and being able to be deep and intimate with my team, and in what they care about, and how they want to develop. And that's how about that, the two compliment each other. Naber:  Awesome, man. That's great. All right, let's make a jump into WeWork. Talk about, when you left LinkedIn, how and why you made that jump, what you're responsible for right now, and then I've got a few more questions around some of the things that you, one took from LinkedIn into WeWork, and two how you're applying some of the things that I'm going to ask about at WeWork as well. Nick DeMarinis: Yeah, absolutely. So it's funny, it was about 14 months ago, two weeks before my kids were born. And a friend of mine from Yahoo!, he messaged me, he was now WeWork, and he said, we're growing crazy. We're looking for great Sales leaders in Asia. And I said, absolutely not not the right time, about to have twin boys. And I love what I do. I'm at LinkedIn. I love what I do right now. He was like, I think you should have a chat. So had a chat with them. His name is Nick W. and just absolutely loved the conversation. I said, okay, well let's speak to some more people that WeWork, had a few more conversations. And that was the crux at how this began, was that there was just some really talented, really thoughtful, really ambitious people that I kept speaking to. And that was number one reason of why I thought to move forward with this path to WeWork, was the talent. The second was really around the mission of the company. And as you know as well being at LinkedIn, super powerful, true north mission of connecting professionals to create opportunity. And we saw that manifest itself in so many stories, which is incredible. So I always told myself, if I'm going to to go to another company, it's going to be with one of the mission that I truly care about. And what I saw there was that LinkedIn was really good at connecting professionals online for them to make an impact in their career and their lives. And WeWork was really looking to do that offline, in physical space and physical environments. And I was like, that's really cool. It's almost like, it's almost going back in time. That should have happened first. But WeWorks actually bringing more of that personal touch and element back to networks, which LinkedIn did really good at scaling that digitally. And WeWork's mission of helping people create a life, not just the living. To be able to work in beautiful spaces, and accomplish great things. And when I when I was at LinkedIn in Hong Kong, we had a beautiful space, right? And we took it for granted. People would come in, and we bring clients, and groups, and students, all kinds of people. We turn them around, and 10 times out of 10 people would say, I would love to work in an environment this. And I started to think, man, everyone should be able to work in a beautiful environment. Everyone should be able to really enjoy the environment that they're working in. Not that's just aesthetically pleasing, but also has a community that brings it to life. So that that was a really big part of how I thought about WeWork. Lastly is the growth story, right? I think about transformation and the adventure of going to Italy. I just thought about how do I continue to learn and transform myself? And this is an opportunity to go back in time to a company, that still trying to figure out a lot of things, that has a really great growth trajectory. And I wanted to be a part of that, and take a lot of what I've learned, to apply it to this to the story. Naber:  Awesome. That's great dude. so, I have three questions about this, and then we'll wrap. First one is, you've been at a few different businesses that are known for having kick ass cultures, really good cultures. And that has gotta be ingrained into the fabric of what people do at all times in order for it to actually sustain and persist over time. What have you noticed as the common themes...and it's still the honeymoon period right now for WeWork, but at the same time, when you know what a movie looks and you've seen the movie before, it can be a little bit different, but you know that you it and you recognize the things that you seen in the other movies that you like. Right? So when you think about LinkedIn, think about the things you really to Yahoo!, what you're seeing right now at WeWork, what are some commonalities between those businesses, that they have in their cultures, that every business should subscribe to, and try to do really well? Because it makes all the difference. Nick DeMarinis: Yeah, absolutely. So I think, the first thing that comes to mind, which I think is probably most powerful is this idea of collaboration, right? This idea, at WeWork we we call it, "We over Me". There was such a team type of mentality, even though you were in individual Sales sometimes, at Yahoo!. And then at LinkedIn we talked so much about building connective tissue across our teams, and building collaborative cultures, and a lot of that manifests in the way we went to market, right? And a lot of the way we conducted our business. And it's our first value at WeWork as well, is "We over Me". Which is, there's no individual that can come in and try to accomplish great things themselves, right? The minute we can come together, and think about how to tackle big challenges, big problems, difficult clients, complex situations, collectively, that's how we're going to be successful. And that manifests in our products as well at WeWork, right? These beautiful spaces that we're delivering, we try to have this idea of community, where people can at some point come together and collaborate, and innovate, and discuss, and drive their businesses forward. And that's been the common thread, I think, across all these companies. There's no type of type of me or individual attitude, it's we're going to win and fail together, and that's going to be our mentality. Naber:  That's great man. Thanks. That's a good example. And when you're...This is specifically a WeWork question. When you think about the power of a workspace, the power of an office space, for those that are either doubters or neutral on the value of that to a team, from an engagement, performance, happiness, etc perspective, can you give us a couple passion points, or reasons why, or maybe points that would turn their mindset around? Or something that would say this is really important to think about, and this is why you should be thinking about it for your teams? Nick DeMarinis: Yeah, absolutely. So I'll give you, I'll give you two examples for me, personal first hand, around the two different space environments that I was a part of, at LinkedIn in Hong Kong, and now here at WeWork, at Chelsea HQ. Which is kind of a sandbox for a lot of our products. It's not what we advise for clients because it's absolute chaos...It's eclectic for sure. When I think about workspace, I don't think it is much as what it looks, and the feel. I mean that's really important, and having different types of areas for different groups or different cohorts - whether that's focused work, whether that's collaborative areas. I think more around the energy and the activation side of it. At LinkedIn in Hong Kong for example, we had about 14,000 square feet and about 50 employees. And it was really hard to drum up the right amount of energy because it was just too much space that we weren't utilizing. So put aside the financial aspect of like, I think we have too much space based upon our employee count. It was just really hard to get a lot of energy from that. So a lot of what we think about it WeWork is how do we create those right density levels that you're not on top of each other, but you're creating the right amount of energy. And we have so much data on so many companies that we're working with, especially our Enterprise customers which now makes up more than 40% of our customer base. We're able to design really cool spaces that activates, and creates the right amount of energy, at the right density levels for organizations. Corridors, we consciously put them in in a certain type of depth or whatever the metrics you want to use, so that people you have collision zones. And you might be able to say, hey, good to see you, haven't seen each other in awhile. And you create these interactions through how we design spaces. At WeWork, in HQ here, we've really pushed the envelope in terms of density levels, and there's a lot of individuals working in different types of environments. And what that's done is it's created an energy level that's infectious, right? That there's just a lot of excitement, a lot of excitement about what you do. There's constant interactions happening every single day because of how the space is designed. So, I think the takeaway for me in that, is really thinking about space in terms of what type of energy are you looking to have? What type of activation do you want to have from your employees? And being able to build beautiful spaces around that. Naber:  Nice. Those are some good little tips and tactics for how space can create, almost, not accidental, because it's purposeful, but a meaningful interactions between individuals between work, as well as while they work. That's really interesting. Okay, I've got one more for you, and then we'll wrap. So the last one I want to talk about is something that you pulled from, my guess, both your time at Yahoo! and your time at LinkedIn. And I want to know how you're applying it, at WeWork. So, you've talked about, and I know people on your team were big on...you've also gone through some training on this, is my guess...is the power of storytelling. And using that as a vehicle to inspire - inspire customers, inspire teams, etc. So how do you think about the power of storytelling? What's a framework that you use? And how are you bringing that to life at WeWork, maybe with a couple of examples, that you've applied since you've been there? Or just generally how you're applying it. Nick DeMarinis: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So I think storytelling is such a powerful mechanism to inspire, and to motivate, and to bring ideas and experiences to life. I learned a lot about the power of storytelling through when I was running the transformation theme for LinkedIn a couple of years ago. So every year we focused on one culture or value and we tried to drive that home across our global Sales organization. A couple of years ago, it was the idea of transformation. And we thought early on, how do we bring this idea of transformation to life? We're gonna bring it to life through storytelling. So we're going to create a framework for transformation, and then we're going to share that through stories throughout the entire year. The culture of transformation at LinkedIn, we talk about it as transformation of self, company and world. There was a particular story of transformation that was really powerful. This woman in Australia, she really struggled early on in her role. And she also struggled at home. Her son was very sick. And she had to overcome both of those challenges. And she was able to do that through the people that she worked with, and her leader, And through the support of the people that she worked with. And she told this fascinating story that ended up with her son becoming very healthy through support, as well as her becoming very successful in her role. And through through that story, people read and were able to understand how people's lives can be transformed both personally and professionally. And one way I'm bringing that to WeWork, is right now in the moment we feel like there's a lot on our shoulders. We're at a stage of the company, where there's a lot going on... Naber:  Massive compounding growth, $47 billion valuation, Pre IPO, rapido with employees, tons of stuff on your shoulders, lots of spotlight as well. I totally get that. Makes Sense. Nick DeMarinis: Exactly. So among all of that, it's hard to keep your eye on the future, right? And I try to always think about that. I think about the story that we're going to go tell a year, two, five years from now. And there's an exercise that I to do that I'm going to be doing with my leadership team coming up, which is, I might be getting the name wrong, but I think it's called "doom or boom" storytelling, right? So what we want to do is like, we're each going to tell a story around two paths. Let's tell a story about, let's just say this gets screwed, right? Where this is going to be a doom, what goes wrong? Okay, we're, going to hire the wrong people, we're going to miss all of our Sales targets, we're going to lose our culture. And I think I want to hear those stories of where things go wrong. And then the story of where things go really well, right? If we're going to be really successful in the next year or two, what has to go right? Well, we brought great people on board. We were selling some of the biggest contracts ever. Whatever it is. And what that does is it helps us really illustrating and picture what those stories could look like. More importantly, I think it helps us identify the trends. Trends in the bad story that we want to make sure we get ahead of now. So there's always a common trends you start to see in these really bad stories. It's like, cool, what can we do to resource and get ahead of these right now so this doesn't happen. Cool, let's do that. And then the story that goes really well, focusing on strengths, right? Let's make sure we double down on those efforts. Whatever's going really well, how do we invest more time and resources in that? So I think the power of storytelling is really important to bringing experiences to life as well as thinking ahead of what you want your stories to be. Let's think about those on two different tracks, and let's learn from both of those. Naber:  Love it, man. That's great. All right. You've been super generous with your time. I really appreciate it. And I've got two rapid fire questions for you, and then we'll break. Okay. First one, you've been in some really high stress jobs. You've been in some time intensive jobs. what are your best two or three tips on work-life balance? Nick DeMarinis: Yeah, I got two that I feel pretty strong about. One is, I make this place work for me, not work for this place, right? So I don't let a company or role dictate how I need to think about my family, my wellness. I make sure that I integrate that in, and I'm very vocal about that. That leads into the second part of it. Second part is just work life balance is to communicate it. I don't think there's really such thing as work life balance. I think it's harmony. Our lives are just way more connected than we possibly think. But a lot of us are afraid to talk about what we care about and what's matters to us outside of work. Whether that's my kids and dogs, whether that's someone that loves to go to to concerts or they have, they're really passionate about wellness. My biggest tip on that is just let's talk about it. Let's let's share with our peers, and our bosses, and those around us, what we do, what we care about and how do we can integrate that. Let's set expectations around how we work, and how we communicate, what's off limits, what are our pet peeves. And I think that's probably the two things that are more most passionate me. I don't try to find that balance. I try to find harmony in the two, and I figure out ways to make that work. And the second is, I over communicate. Everyone here knows that I try to get home for bath time by seven, because I really care about that with my kids. But I wake up at six, and I'm more than happy to take a phone call at six in the morning, right? Everyone's different. I want to get to know on my team, what they care about, how they to work. I think too many times we think about work life and we try to figure it out ourselves. I think we just need to get it out there, and let's talk about that with our team, let's talk about how we solve that. And it can be a really, really healthy conversation. Naber:  Nice, love it. Last question, it's got two parts. Because I want to talk about your twins for a second...and that'll be the second part. First one is - and my audience knows this, but I'm going to explain for the guests, I asked this question on people's birthdays every single year - what is the most important learning or lesson you've acquired in the last 12 months, professionally? Nick DeMarinis: Most important learning or lesson that I've acquired in the past 12 months professionally. That's a really great, that's a really great question. I would say it's gotta be around this idea of being vulnerable, and there's no such thing as a dumb question, something around that. I don't know the best way to frame it. But I think, for me, life and your career, you never have it figured out. There's never a role, or a company, or a function, where you're like, I've got it figured out. My biggest learning is to have just a really high sense of curiosity. To always be able to ask the questions, figure out how and why things work. Be very vulnerable to say, I don't know, I don't know the answer, or I don't know this yet. Can you help walk me through that? More so in the past four and a half months from WeWork than the previous...at LinkedIn I felt like I had a lot of it figured out. Where here I'm in this really uncomfortable situation where I'm trying to still figure a lot of it out. So being very vulnerable, and being able to be like, hey, I don't have it figured out. I have a lot of questions. Help me, walk me through this. That's the biggest lesson that I've learned in the last few months. Naber:  Good one. I like it. Part B is, you are a fresh, little over one year dad of twinsies - twin boys, identical twin boys. I read a statistic the other day that between 88 and 90% of the human population reproduces. So the odds of someone listening on this podcast, are that they have kids, will have kids, or at least they know someone very close to them. So, what is the most important learning or your lesson you've acquired in the last 12 months, being the father of one year old twin boys? Nick DeMarinis: Yeah. Good question. There's a lot. Can we extend this an hour? Naber:  Yeah, sure. Go for it. Get out your calendar, get ready audience, here we go. Nick DeMarinis: For me, I think the biggest parallel of being father and a leader is, is around sacrifice, right? I think I've always loved seeing others succeed, and be able to sacrifice my time to help others be successful, or trying my best at that. Becoming a father of the last year, you just realize how much you have to sacrifice to be able to support these tiny humans as they go through these different stages of development. And there's so many parallels there. And you do have to sacrifice a lot. Me and my wife, we've really had work together around what the sacrifice looks like, and how do we do the best for our kids. It's helped me realize the bigger picture, that the day to day of our lives and of work is trivial compared to the bigger picture of why we are here on this earth. Raising kids, and just getting so excited about each stage of development, and what their life is going to be like years from now. I think that same way around my team here, and what they're learning now, and what they're going through is really challenging. But they're going to get through it, it's transformation. And I can't wait to see what they grow up to be in their personal professional lives years from now. So I think, there's a couple things to unpack there. I think the amount of sacrifice that you have to to help yourself and to help others really starts to become apparent when you're a parent. This idea of just really looking at the big picture of development, and the story of of your children growing up, as well as the teams that you're working with, and what their careers could look like. It gets you to start thinking way further ahead than just the day-to-day in front of you. Naber:  Hey everybody, thanks so much for listening. If you appreciated and enjoyed the episode, go ahead and make a comment on the post for the episode on LinkedIn. If you love The Naberhood Podcast, we'd love for you to subscribe, rate, and give us a five star review on iTunes. Until next time - go get it.

Guest: Nicolas Draca - Chief Marketing Officer @HackerRank (Formerly @Twilio, @LinkedIn, @Infoblox) Guest Background: Nicolas Draca has over 20 years of experience in sales and marketing. He is currently the CMO at HackerRank. Prior to HackerRank, he was the Vice President of Marketing at Twilio. Prior to Twilio, Nicolas spent five years at LinkedIn, holding the position of senior director, global marketing operations. Before LinkedIn, in 2004, he co-founded Ipanto and served the same company as the chief marketing officer. Ipanto was acquired by Infoblox in 2007, where he spent another 3 years as a Director, building their Demand Marketing function globally. Nicolas holds a master's degree from ICN Business School, France. He is also an advisor and early investor in several startups and incubators (like Y Combinator). Guest Links: LinkedIn Episode Summary: In this episode, we cover: - The Science of Marketing Playbook - 4 Pillars (Talent, Insights, Operations, and Lifecycle) - The Formula for Hiring, Onboarding, and Developing Successful Marketing Teams - Critical Alignment w/ Your Manager and Stakeholders: What is your job? - Data and Measurement - Moving from Data to Intelligence - The Account-Based Marketing Method Full Interview Transcript: Naber:  Hello friends around the world. My name is Brandon Naber. Welcome to The Naberhood, where we have switched on, fun discussions with some of the most brilliant, successful, experienced, talented and highly skilled Sales and Marketing minds on the planet, from the world's fastest growing companies. Enjoy! Naber:  Hey everybody. Today we have Nicolas Draca on the show. Nicolas has over 20 years of experience in Sales and Marketing. He is currently the Chief Marketing Officer at HackerRank, who have raised $58 million in capital. Prior to HackerRank. He was the Vice President of Marketing at Twilio. Twilio IPO's back in 2016, and they currently have a $17 billion valuation. Prior to Twilio, Nicolas spent five years at LinkedIn holding the position of Senior Director of Global Marketing Operations. LinkedIn IPO'd back in 2011, and they were acquired by Microsoft in 2016 for $27 billion. Before LinkedIn. In 2004, he co-founded Ipanto and served the same company as the Chief Marketing Officer. Ipanto was acquired eventually by Infoblox in 2007, where he spent another three years as a Director building their Demand Marketing function globally. Nicolas holds a Master's Degree from ICM Business School in France. He is also an advisor and early stage investor in several startups and incubators like Y Combinator. Here we go. Naber:  Nicolas, awesome to have you on the show. How are you? Nicolas Draca:   I'm doing fantastic. Thank you for having me. Naber:  Yes, I'm so glad to have you. Hearing your French accent makes me think about the French holiday I just had, the French holiday that you just had, in addition to being in Greece and having all the amazing food. I am so excited to have you on. I've learned a lot from you in a short space of time when we've worked together in the past. Gotten to know you a little bit personally. Many of the people I've worked with have gotten to know you personally and professionally, and there's just so many good things to say about you, as a person and as a professional operator. So I'm more than excited for the audience to hear what you have to say. So why don't we jump in? What I think we'll do is, we'll get into some of the professional jumps that you've had through your career, talk about your career, as well as a bunch of the frameworks, the mindset you have, some of the methods that you've gone through and used in your playbook, if you will. But first, I think it'd be helpful, if it's okay with you, is to start to get to know you a little bit personally so that they can build up the same fascination as I have with you as an individual, and maybe we'll start back in the day, if you will. Maybe, we'll start in your childhood. So why don't we start with...I mean, you grew up in France, you were based in Strasbourg, you were born in Strabourg and grew up there, you were based in Frankfurt, then Strasbourg again, San Francisco, you've got so many global experiences. What was it like as a kid growing up as Nicolas Draca? And what are some of the things you're interested in? Nicolas Draca:   Yeah. So I grew up in France, in Strasbourg - border with Germany - East. And what was it to be Nicolas Draca? Well, I would say not much, pretty shy kid. Just following my friends wherever they would go. I was not the leader, that's for sure. I was average in every single sport. I was okay with it, no ego there. It's just, like, anything I would play, I was just average. I think that summaries what it was when I was young. I think school, I was average. Sport, I was average. I think great friends. I lived in the countryside. So after school, I was more about going outside, playing in the forest, playing with my bike. And that was my life as a young kid. Naber:  Very cool. And what were some of your hobbies, your interests as you were growing up? Nicolas Draca:   It was being outside, and I think this is still the case today. We lived in a small village. There were like 200 people, in my class were nine, on my level. Being with friends, outside, playing whatever, playing soccer, running around, jumping on our bike, whatever you can imagine. Naber:  Very cool. Very cool. And as you're going through high school, were there certain subjects or anything you acceled at where you thought at a young age, you were pretty good at it naturally? Nicolas Draca:   Yeah. I specialized pretty quickly in math and physics. I have boys. I was a boy. I was just going with the flow. I'm just no big plan, no ambition, no nothing. To be fair, ,when I talk to friends today, and they look like where I am today, they struggled to connect between what I was when I was young, and what I do today. Like, really? That's what you've done and that's who you are. So yeah, just I go back to that just an average kid. Naber:  It's funny, I'm laughing so much, and I have to hold it in because of the microphone, but I'm laughing. That's really interesting...What did your parents do for a living? Nicolas Draca:   My father was a Sales guy, and my mother was a teacher. And then my father moved from Sales in consulting to building his own company. Actually he created two companies, two startups. Naber:  Wow. So that was in your genesY Nicolas Draca:   Yeah, I think so. Yeah. Part of the education was you started in a job early, starting when you're 16 - it's like, first job, same for my sister, I have one sister. And you're going to have to work. Yeah, that was in our genes, that's for sure. Naber:  Very interesting. And what was the first thing you did to make money? Nicolas Draca:   The first thing I did to make money was to work in a restaurant as a waiter. And then the second thing, I ended up driving ambulance. Naber:  Whoa. Nicolas Draca:   Yeah. That was my summer job. So this was when I was 18, you'll can only drive in France when you're 18. That was something really unique, learned a ton from it, specifically on the people side. And I think if I didn't have started computer science at that time, maybe I would have moved into being a doctor or something in the medicine field. Naber:  Wow. What were some of the things that you learned? You're probably about to say that. Nicolas Draca:   Yeah. Wow. So when you drive when you drive an ambulance, you drive people from home to the hospital, or you drive them back. So quite quickly you understand and you see where they live, and you see all type of people, all social aspects of it. And so that was one part of it, which when you're young, I was like 18, 19, that's just wow, it was pretty surprise, I'd say. The other thing is, we will also doing ER type of thing, I don't know how we say it in English, but like we would go...there are car accidents, and we would go there and pick up the people. And yeah, we did a couple of ones where...once we went for somebody who committed suicide to pick 'em up. Naber:  Wow. Nicolas Draca:   so it's a, I mean a, you guys can go a little bit on it to give you an idea, but the, you arrive there and the person tried to, cut is they yeah. And yeah, but, but survived it. And so it was really a weird kind of set up because you arrived, you don't know the person, so you're completely disconnected. whereas there's a lot of drama going on around the seminary. You come here and you just try to do your job and then you have those weird part of the story where actually, which we have to do is to chase a cat with trying to leak the blog. We're story, but we ended up running in the k frame to chase that cat was trying to lead all the blog. yeah. Yeah. It's just kind of weird setup slash weird experience and we had many of those, which I'm not sure I want to share. Naber:  Oh Wow. That's an amazing short story. You walked into a storm on a bottle and you have to write into the bottle every single time. Yeah. Yup, Yup, Yep, Yup, Yup. Wow. That is, that's probably the most interesting answer I've gotten to that question. That's a really good answer. Nicolas Draca:   It says a, it was a unique experience actually. I a I still remember that, that job and I think I got lucky to get that job for a couple of months, a few years. And yeah. Do you find a lot? I think where I am today. Naber:  Very cool. Wow. You always learned something really interesting about somebody. You have these types of conversations, so you're in Strasburg, driving ambulances, working at restaurants, being, being, being, being a average, probably not average. You're probably overselling the average part of it. But, so then you're making decisions about where you want to go to school for university. how, what's the decision you make at that point? And tell us, walk us through, your decision around school. After, after high school Nicolas Draca:   I started, I had the chance of a started coding when I was young, like 11 year old. I'm 46 today, so 11 mean like in 84. at that time, you do not have access to computer, but we were lucky that intermediate school, we had computer. I think there was somebody who was passionate about it, was able to get a couple of computer for us. And so I'd have passion for it. Then decided quickly to move into computer science. I'm a major, and then got my bachelor in computer science. And then, my idea was you're going to find this weird, I wanted to work in a golf. I played golf. I loved it. I taught my other job, my third job on the weekend. And super weird. So I interviewed for a golf school, to be in management. And at the same time I interview for interview for a business school, meaning to go through the process to be accepted and went for business school and went from my business school aftermy computer degree, the master in business and then, took my first job. Naber:  Wow. Not In the Gulf company. Nicolas Draca:   no, not a in a golf company. I still, I don't play actually anymore. but at that age, I don't know. And my parents were highly supportive. They're hey, you want to go? Even though you graduated for computer science, who went to be in the gold business? Go for it. so I had the oldest support up to me to make some decision, super happy about what happened. Naber:  Nice. Cool. I wouldn't want to, I wouldn't want to compete with you on the links. I'm sure that you're much better than you're saying you right now. So let that, does that get us to GE Capital? Is that the first role out of school? Nicolas Draca:   Yeah. Out of school. My first job was, a Sales guy at GE Capital. And here I was selling infrastructure, so laptop, desktop servers, printers applications, for a large company in the east of France. So that's what my first job and that's where I met. I started the same day somebody called a Duchenne. Why cool. Founded a pencil, later on with Naber:  very cool. And so you were up, that's really interesting story. I'm sure we'll get to that in a second also. And you were obviously quite technical walking into that role. Was that really helpful walking in as with the quite technical mind to get into an account management slash Sales role at GE Capital and for it solutions? Nicolas Draca:   Yeah, it was, it was a, it wasn't nice to have actually two is not that complex. A, it was a new laptop computer, right? Yeah. To have a passion for it. So I had a passion for it, but not treating immediate at that stage. like here was really hardcore Sales. It was my first job, in back in the day you would start, there was no internet then I'm going to speak like an old guy. So actually you had the yellow pages. That's what I remember. And I was pretty shy. Like you have to remember that the, why am I in trail? Good question. and on a on day one, I get the yellow pages, which is not the best way to onboard somebody and say, hey, good luck and go and try to sell. And I had the number of to deliver on. Nicolas Draca:   the story is as well as the on friends factors actually what is happening in inferences. Sometimes they do a writing test where they analyze how you write. I think it tell them that country, I'm not sure. Yeah. Long Story Short, I started day one and then my boss come to see me and saying, hey, they just finished on an icing your the way you're right and we cannot keep you because more or less a summary, you get a report, three pages on the report. and the reports say you're a loser and you will never be able to handle pressure, and grow in your career. So are, you're going to have to leave tonight, and you can not stay. And I'm what? So it came back pretty upset to meet with the VP of Sales of GE. Nicolas Draca:   Excellent. its in Paris and then hey, that, that's not how it's gonna play out. Right. You were first from a legal standpoint, you're not allowed to do that. Number two, it's highly, disrespectful to onboard needs to get started to two and then decide after day one based on how I write. I agree with that. My writing is terrible, but then decide who I am as a person. so I kept that, I kept the report, and I showed it to my kids later. I'm yes, that's what your dad was. That's where happened. So that was my first job, actually. They one I came back home. Naber:  Well Nicolas Draca:   I'm I'm I was already withmy wife. Naber:  Yeah. Oh my gosh. so in a marathon you're not supposed to pre sprint from the start, but we are sprinting with good stories so far. This is hilarious and great. It's just excellent. So, what is the, what's the biggest thing you learned at GE Capital? And then we'll talk about your jump to CSC. Nicolas Draca:   Yeah. So a g tactical here was, so, I learned what it cost to be on the first real job and being a Sales person, what it took and how to be a, leave you smart. And what I mean by that is how can you make your quota the fastest way possible. and here we add professional services on one end, which was like 30% margin. We had a infrastructure which was 5% margin. And of course my quota was based on a much more genuine would bring to the table and decided where as we were in a selling hardware emotion in the company, decided to do all of my business in services, and professional services, sorry. This is my learning is what is the fastestto achieving, to beating quota was the learning of spending a couple of years at GE. Naber:  Yeah. Nice. That's great. Yeah. You've quoted a couple of times. whatever you're doing, somebody else's probably done it better than you. Don't reinvent the wheel, learn from others and be lazy, smarter. Yeah. I really liked that quote. And it's obviously something you can learn really early in your career. okay. Yeah, Nicolas Draca:   I actually have the, it's a, it's a big, big one is a, it's trying to look and does, this is what I did unconsciously though looking around me and there was one Sales rep who was highly successful and one was working really hard but not like I was working like 14 hours a day, but not being as successful. So I loved that the successful one. And I tried to understand the dynamic of the deals then and learn from it, then cloned it. Naber:  Nice. Excellent. Okay. So you're at GE Capital, you're learning a lot about what it's like to carry a bag, be a Sales person for the first time, you're making a jump to CSC. What did you make the jump to CSC, and what were you doing at that job? Nicolas Draca:   Yes, so CSC, one of my friends was leading one of the team at CSC, Computer Science Corporation, it was in the outsourcing business and it was focusing on transformation. And transformation at CSC will assign hundred of millions of dollars of deals where they will start outsourcing both infrastructure and people, and moving them into CSC. And our friend was putting a team together to help him through this transformation phase. And so you will work on an account for like 6 to 12 months max. And your job would be as fast as possible to be able either from an infrastructure standpoint, from a people standpoint, from a process standpoint, to migrate to CSC. So here it opened up to all of Europe because all of those contracts where across Europe or across the world and more of an international angle to what I was doing before. Naber:  Very good. Okay. And so you made that jump, and Program Manager. So day to day, what are you doing? Nicolas Draca:   Yeah, day-to-day the way it would work is we would be in charge of projects, all of those transformation projects. And depending on the project we had lined up, or our goal would be to work with a set of people...I had a couple of project manager working for me, you will have infrastructure people, you will have architects, you will have procurement, and so on. And just being able to orchestrate and to coordinate all of it to deliver on time. So the way it would work is as part of the process before starting on anything, you would send a quote to your customers saying this is a how many hours I'm going to spend, and this is how much it's going to cost. So you just ship within the hours you're committed to. Naber:  Are you creating that estimate or is someone else creating it and you're delivering on it? Nicolas Draca:   No, I have to create that estimate. And it was like massive, like millions of dollars every time. So, it was the first time I worked on really, really large contracts, so pretty exciting. Naber:  Yeah. Excellent. Okay. So you're at CSC, this is what you're doing day to day, and you are six and a half, seven years into your career at this point, your belt to make your first major entrepreneurial jump for Ipanto. Tell us about why you decided to start Ipanto, and the story for how it started, as well how you're ultimately acquired by Infoblox, which sounds like a great story. Nicolas Draca:   Yeah. So what happened is...one of the projects we were managing - so I was still working with my friend Eric from GE, we went together to CSC - and one of the projects we were working on is IP address management. So what was happening is people were trying to find a way to manage their IP addresses on their network. And they were using spreadsheets, which seems surprising, but that was more or less the go-to. And if you think about it like every single device, like your laptop here, your printer, whatever, has an IP address. And as you can imagine pretty quickly, you can not keep up. If you have 5,000 employee, and I don't know 3-4 IP addresses per employee, you cannot manage IP addresses in a spreadsheet. Then we looked at it for a customer and realized, that there was only one company that was doing that as a software, and they were charging per active IP per year, and it was $1.50. And with the explosion of IP addresses, we looked at it and were like, oh man, we have to create a company. So we started looking what other competitors were doing on the side, and at some point decided to create our own company...We had hired...So what we're doing is more or less, we stayed at CSC as consultants. So we work for them. So our daytime job was CSC. Our nighttime job was building our company, which many people do. So it was all bootstrapped and it took us like a couple of years to get an MVP and we started closing customers. And we did a decent job I think on the Marketing side, we did a decent job on our footprint where people believed we were a large company. With Skype you could open...we had, not fake, but we had numbers in Australia - a phone number in Australia, we have numbers in the US - phone numbers. So, as we had global reach, we will send quote like across the globe, and we would time our email to look like we were in the region. We also created a set of names, so I had multiple names. I was Shawn, the product manager. I was Nicolas, the CMO. I was also John, from support. And so emails we're going out, and we automated all of it, to make you believe that we were a large organization, but to ensure that people could engage with us through support, which we call customer success today. Or through the product team, saying hey, what do you think about the solution? And so on and so on. So, yeah, that's what we did. Naber:  So you're effectively like the equivalent of a chatbot with all of your names, and you are your own follow the sun model, as in like you did everything probably 24 hours during the day. How many people did you eventually have a on the team? Nicolas Draca:   So we went up to 10 employees, mostly engineers. So we build a small engineering team in Strasbourg. And then we had that rule, as a Sales leader you would appreciate it, and this was coming from my father. So my father, had a rule for a Sales rep that if you go to Paris at that time, you need to have three meetings a day. If you travel three meetings a day. We applied the same rule at the European level. So if we had people pinging us from any country, and we were able to secure a free meetings a day, we'll go and we'll take a flight. So we went to Dubai multiple times. We went to Saudi Arabia. We went to Turkey. Meaning that's where inbound was coming from. Was it rational in terms of like weighted pipeline and how much money we would make, it was not, we did not have that experience. What is it efficient in term of meetings? Yes, it was. And then we were having long meetings and we built partnerships across most of the Europe, which was pretty cool at that time, and got us to meet some great prospects. And then at some point, we decided...two things happened. I'm going to get you to Infoblox. One is...I don't know for what reason actually, I can not recall...we decided to raise funding. And the plan was, with my associate, he said, hey, you know what, you're going to go to the valley, and you're going to meet with VC. And I never met with VC before, nor have I ever put a business plan together the way a VC in the valley would expect it. So, one of the leaders in the space, Infoblox, just raised 20 million at that point. We send an email through some connection, and we end up with like 20 meetings in one week. I'm like, rule of 3, works. Jump on a plane. And I went there alone, when I think about it, it's pretty, I don't know if it was stupid, but it was interesting. Went there alone with my deck, seven slides. And my first meeting, I think it was Accel, I end up with like five people in the room, like partners. Tell me about your company and so on. I go through the meeting, I explained what I could explain. Was pretty weak on the finance side of the deck, which was the last part of the deck, focusing more on the customers we had, and the dynamic of the business, and the size of the market. But more or less, I did one meeting after the other like this. We didn't raise any funding, to be clear. Somebody told us unless I can call you at 11 first to have lunch together, we're not gonna work together...But we learn a ton through the process. We started discovering how people think here. How do they see the world? How do they manage their businesses? And actually, on the last two or three meetings, people just starting giving us advice, which I highly respect the US for...anybody, like trying to grow a company or be an entrepreneur in general. And people are really nice and friendly to give us advice about what we should do next, and how we should think about our business...And in parallel what we did is we ended up working on a deal with a company called PG&E. So coming from France, I have no bloody clue who PG&E was. It's not that I haven't done my homework, but we had all that inbound and we were just...And so we ended up in final on PG&E against a company called Infoblox. And we didn't win, whereas we had the support from the engineering team. And then Infoblox reach out to us getting really upset just starting to see us in deals, incuding that large PG&E deal. And the BD person, as well as the GM for Europe, Karl, ping'd us and said, I need to meet you. I need to spend time with you. I need to understand who you are. And this is where the initial discussion started. Naber:  Wow. Really interesting. Someone to reach out to directly from Infoblox and said, we need to meet you. Were you pretty guarded with those conversations? Did you feel like it was a com-partnership, or did you feel like it was more like them kind of feeling you out as competition? Nicolas Draca:   Yes. So we already had another competitor in the space who approached us, and our first feedback was we're not going to talk to. Like, we don't want to talk to you. And Karl, Karl changed our life somehow. We saw him at a show, and he's like, I want to see your product, like, show me, show me, show me. And we're nah, dude, we don't want to, we already had this. It happened two weeks ago. We were again pretty young, and we're like, no way, we're not showing you your product. That's not going to happen. Screw that. And then he pushed again and got the VP of Marketing and the VP of Sales to ping us and they say, hey, you know what we're going to do? Actually we're going to fly to Santa Clara. And you're going to come and present, and we're going to sign an NDA, pay for your travel, and everything. And at that point we're like, okay, again the rule of a couple of meetings, let's go to the valley. And then based on our learnings, meeting with all the VC in the valley, we were really set up for success in the meeting we would have there - understanding how they think, understanding how they approach things, and being able to engage in the right way through all the meetings. So it ended up being a successful week. There was really a good fit between their team and our team. They really love our technology and loved the way we were working. And then we quickly within a few months closed the deal, sold the company, and moved everybody in California, the engineers, and so on. Naber:  Wow. That's great. You've been a part of...you were required Infoblox at Ipanto, you had Talentoday that you're an investor in who was acquired by Medix in 2018, you've been a part of multiple IPO businesses. Do you have any advice for people going through that acquisition process, especially as a founder, especially as a Senior leader on the exec team? Nicolas Draca:   I think when when you go for that process you need to be...so a couple of things. One, we were pretty clear that based on our skillset, and based on our capacity to raise funding, we could not grow the company more. Okay. It didn't end up being a large company, it was a small startup, but we were aware and self aware that hey, we reached our limit. And so we decided to go on the path to...It's not like a week before Infoblox ping'd us we were like, we're going to sell. Like I think we built and designed the company for six months with a path to sell the company. So that was one. There was no ego involved on this one - that was the second one. And number three goes back to what you want to do as part of that opportunity. Right? You as a leader, do you want to be part of the adventure still? Or, I'm going to sell and stay six months and go. For us, again, we were clear we wanted to sell. We still believe in our product, and we wanted to push it and get that product / solution successful and growing, becoming the leader on IP address management. That's what our dream. And we executed on it. The last piece is of course, culture fit, or the fit with the team that are going to acquire you. Pretty often what you see, you get acquired and then everybody disappears, right? And you're not even sure your product is gonna survive that acquisition. And here for us it was really, really important that, we would get on well with the people that are acquiring us, that we were clear that we would be part of the adventure moving forward, and we could still execute on our vision to lead or yeah, to own IP address management, which was what we were doing. And this is what we did. Naber:  Nice. Excellent. It's a really good segue into Infoblox and you building the Demand Marketing function there. So as someone that went through an acquisition, you're founder or co-founder of the company going into that new company, tell us about what you were doing at Infoblox. And can you give it to us from the perspective of someone who just got acquired? Because someone that is thinking of their business with an exit strategy, it might be good for them to also hear it from a lens of, we were acquired and this was what it was like in the aftermath or the afterlife in the new company. Nicolas Draca:   Yeah. So first we were acquired. It took us some time to understand that...it was by a smart team. We did not realize - we just moved to the Bay, we had no sense of the dynamic here. It took me like a couple of years actually. I understood they were smart, but those people, it was their 4th IPO. They we're trying to go to their next IPO, they've done three of them. I was like, cool, what is an IPO? Congratulations. But the quality of talent that they assemble and the success they had in the past, I think just facilitated the vision of how we would work together. But again, this we didn't know about, right. I learned it later. But quickly, we agreed...We had a bonus structure based on revenue of our company, revenue of our product, sorry. And what happened, and I think you're going to love that one. So, Ipanto the IP address management product, was a highly successful lead gen product. Why? Because replace your spreadsheet to manage IP addresses was something everybody would understand and would get excited about, versus the other products that Infoblox that had at the end of the day are not that sexy, and actually you're competing with free. So it was kind of a Trojan horse. And the Sales strategy, which I didn't know, was to use our product to enter into accounts, to start a discussion. But the goal is to sell the other products. Naber:  You're the land. Nicolas Draca:   Yeah, I'm the land play, but on the discussion, not even selling it. And I got pretty quickly upset about it because again, we had with my buddy a vision that we wanted to lead IP address management, and they were using our leads just to do that, which is to land a discussion. And the piece you're gonna like is what I'm going to tell you now, is at some point this was also channel business. Okay. And they were not managing all the leads. And I found a channel partner to take over all the leads. So I went to see the Head of Sales, and I'm like, Hey, your team doesn't seem that excited. I have a bonus tied to it. And we went to execute on the vision, it's all good - and I was like, Director in that company, Director of Demand Gen, I was a nobody - and I'm like, I'm going to move over all the leads to that channel partner, and actually I'm going to Seattle to train them next week. Okay. And at that point, my boss, the VP, Marketing came andsaid hey, we are we going to have a timeout - like, you have to stop. And I'm like, why?...We understand you have a bonus tied to everything. We're going to pay your bonuses, we're good. And we are going to stick back to our strategy. But I think they did appreciate the commitment and the passion around that, saying, hey that's cool. Now can you do what you do to the rest of the business, and not focus only on your world? Naber:  Wow, really interesting. I mean you brought an entrepreneurial, founder mindset and you went in hot with an executive that's the Head of Sales. And that is not an easy thing to unlearn that mindset once you're running a startup, once you're a founder of a business, that is not an easy thing to unlearn when you go into a larger environments. I'm sure they really appreciated both the structure and method of the problem solving, as well like you said, the dedication to solving the problem, which is great. Nicolas Draca:   Yeah. And it's not being a jerk as part of the process. What I say sometimes to my team...we were at some point, agreeing in our disagreement on the vision, and it's about having a discussion saying, Hey, this is the issue, the way I'm going to solve is okay, I'm gonna move on. And I think being able to have that level of discussion in a constructive way, and agreeing in your disagreement, is always a good thing to decide what to do next. Naber:  Nice. Excellent. And I'm sure that'll play a little part of talking about some different pieces of your playbook a little bit here. So we're gonna jump from Infoblox into LinkedIn, Twilio, and HackerRank. Heavy hitting, awesome, really interesting hyper-growth organizations that you've joined at very different stages, and endured for very different stages. And you've just done such amazing things at these businesses. So why don't you talk about the jump into Linked, what you were doing at LinkedIn, maybe for a couple minutes. And then I'll pull up, I want to talk about a couple of what I know are your superpowers, as you're going through both that role...and you can jump into examples before you get to Twilio, before you get to HackerRank. But just jump into how you joined LinkedIn and what you did there. Nicolas Draca:   Yeah. So when I joined LinkedIn, I focused initially on the Talent Solution business. It was before the IPO, again, I know you're pretty familiar with that business. And here if the goal was to build a Demand Gen engine to support that Talent Solution business. And if I recall it correctly, I'm not 100% sure about the number, I think our prior year the revenue was like 80 million. And I come, I think their Marketing team was like 30 people all together, reporting into Nick, and my team was like two people. And I look after two weeks, and I put a plan together, super proud of how fast I did my plan. You'll see what happened next. I go and meet with the CMO of LinkedIn, and I'm like, Hey, here it is. Here is my vision, this is how we are going to grow from...I'm going to build an organization to support $500M, from $80M. And he looks at me, and he's like, I like your plan. It's a good plan. It's not ambitious enough. And I say, what? I'm like, 80 to 500. He's like, yeah 10x. Like the rule at LinkedIn was like 10x always. And I'm like, what about 10x? He's like, year, you need to build a plan for to support a $billion because Talent Solutions is going to be our first billion dollar business. And I'm like, you're joking, right? He's like, no, no, I'm not. Can you please come back next week with an update on your plan? And I'm like, of course. So I go back to my cubicle work on my plan. Then he pings me, Hey, can you come to see me in my office the day after. I come to see him the day after in his office, he's like, Hey, I really liked your plan. This was Talent Solutions. It's like I just hired a lead on the Marketing side for Marketing Solutions, and I love for you to help her to build a Demand Gen engine again. And I'm like, what are you talking about? Yesterday you told me to go from 80 to a $billion, now you asked me to to focus on this. I'm like, I cannot do that, I have two people. He's like, nah, figure it out. And this is how is has been since day one. And this is where you learn the scaling muscle, hyper-growth muscle. More or less, I mean you've been through that journey, being on a high speed train and building the tracks at the same time, at scale. Naber:  Yeah. Speed. The ultimate function of speed. Nicolas Draca:   Speed. I think it's the ultimate function of, okay, speed and demanding excellence, which is a core value. Because whatever you're going to do as an experiment, if it's works, you're going to have to 10x that experiment. And 10x can mean the same thing you build in the US is going to have to work in Europe, in Australia, in Brazil, or it's going to have to scale across the organization, across all business lines. And when you are initially...I remember the first couple of months being exhausted. But not exhausted because I was working, I wasn't working 16 hours a day, not in like number of hours. It's the intensity of the meeting. Like in half an hour, and again you've been through that, you'll have a meeting in half an hour, and you come with a V1 of something, after half an hour you would be at V5. And if if you had to check your phone for two minutes during the meeting, you would be lost. Like if you did not follow the discussion, you're like what are you talking about? That's level to speed, yeah, you went back to it. Speed, demanding excellence, and all the core values of the company. Yeah, it was incredible. Naber:  Amazing. Okay. So you're at LinkedIn and you're undoubtedly iterating on and building new pieces of your playbook. One of the things that you've talked about in a few different forums, you've been interviewed on this, you've been on stage talking about this, is your Four pillars of the Science of Marketing - Talent, Insights, Operations, and Lifecycle. What I'd love to do is start picking apart each one of those, because we're at LinkedIn now and I know you've developed quite a bit of muscle fiber putting together a lot of the playbook there, and then ultimately exercising it more and more, and iterating more and more at Twilio and HackerRank. Can you go through, the basics of those four pillars, and give us a little bit of sense for how your frameworks work within each of them. So maybe we can start with talent, and then move from there. Is that okay? Nicolas Draca:   Yeah, of course. So talent is about, I mean it's number one. And it doesn't come from me, it comes from LinkedIn as the driving force for success. And it's something I learned at LinkedIn. I appreciated at Twilio, and I appreciate it even more at HackerRank. It's about how you're going to build your team, who you're going to hire, and how are they going to be able to scale, right? Not having any compromise on who you're going to hire. And the process we had, and I think it was across the company, but you can tell me, was when you hire somebody...So first we want to somebody for their current job or their job description, but we're hiring somebody for their capacity to grow, and scale, and be in a job two years from now... But when you are in a high growing startup, you never hire people for what they're going to do the next six months. That's not gonna work. And the number one thing is, people who will go through the interview process will decide who will test on what, but at the end of the day when we will regroup after talking to a candidate, 100% have to be a yes. I know it was the same on your end, I think. 100% have to be yes. Otherwise, we'll pass on the candidate. It doesn't mean the candidate was a bad candidate. The guy could be like super smart, super...it's just, it did not work. But two things that are really important. Number one is people knew that if the said no, there will be consequences, right? Meaning that person would not get hired, right? So you have to work with people who understand that. Number two is if somebody said no, you can go back, if you have one out of seven people saying no, you had the opportunity to get back to that person and say, Hey, you are the only no, just doing one last check that you are 100% no, because we're going to pass on this candidate. And the person has to be, I'm going to say smart to even maybe come back and say, hey actually let me re check my notes. Let me check that, and maybe I was wrong, which not many people are able to say. Or I was right, and I picked my my view...And I was wrong, I'm actually a yes, and let's move forward. So first is no compromise on hiring talent and spend the time between needed to find the right person. The other one is hiring is a full time job. And initially when you build a team, it's not the thing you're going to do at seven at night. You just want to block your calendar to just have that muscle, and spend the time partnering with your recruiter, looking yourself in your network, and so on. But it's a full time job. And then when you've done all that job of hiring, next step is onboarding and after it's nurturing, right? It's how you going to help people understand who they are as a professional, and what are they good at, what are they less good at, and it starts there. And what is the path for them to grow? It can be a year plan, a 2 year plan. Whatever it takes to ensure that you assembled the best team possible, a team that is going to collaborate. I think collaboration is at the heart of it. I think specifically in Marketing, I'm not going to talk about other organizations, but in Marketing you are the center of so many things that if you don't have like collaboration / communication skills, it's going to be a little bit hard to succeed. So that's one. The second one for me is demanding excellence. Demanding excellence across anything you do. And the third one is passion. Passion for your job. I can talk more about it, but I think when people ask me what do you look for in a candidate? I'm like, okay, you look for the skills and so on. I'm going to look for culture fit and passion. And both are going to be equally important. Naber:  Yeah. Excellent. When you were going through these interviews...ABP always be pipelining, like you said, just building that muscle all the time. You're the CEO of the hiring process, you own the hiring process. As you're going through, and you're going through the interviews, what was the calibration exercise like after that? What were the nuts and bolts of that method you use to calibrate with the rest of the team after you were done with the interviews? Nicolas Draca:   Yes. So they way it was working is, we do this today at HackerRank, we have something called job guidelines. When we agree what are the skill set that are needed for the job. And we defined the skillset and what we expect from them. And the same way I love to had passion for the company, passion for the job, which I have two different, which are different. And then I had culture, values as part of the scorecard. Okay. What we do is everybody has to...so there no like, oh yeah, I didn't have time to update, and I'm just sending you an email and this thing is going to be okay. No, everybody has to [complete] the scorecard. It is super important. At HackerRank, and depending upon your entry level, if it goes Director and above, actually the entire package goes to our CEO, he wants to review it. And it's really, really... Like if you don't have the package ready, he's not going to approve it. Like he's not even going to interview with the person. And if he's not part of the interview process, he's not gonna approve the package. That person would never get an offer and a reference. So it's pretty core. So we have alignment and discussion, a pre-interview process. Not for every interview, but when start a job search. And then what we do, which takes time, but it's worth it, when you interview a couple of candidates is that meeting debriefing session. I do believe that often the first two or three candidates you're going to bring on sight could be for calibration, calibrating the team. What is happening when you are going that path is you have many new hires, and you're going to have to understand their interview style, and what they value, and what they don't don't value. And I think those post interview meetings, meeting with the team of interviewers and just agreeing and - saying, hey, I he was strong of that, and somebody else saying, no, he was like super weak, and ensuring that everybody's on the same page on what we expect, and how we value those skills, is really, really important. So calibration on a couple of first candidates is my take. When you have a more junior team or a new team within the organization. Naber:  Yeah, yeah, that makes sense. Your teams at such hyper growth businesses, those teams are always new, always getting used to the process. Also a smaller business, obviously always getting used to the new process. So as you're bringing people on board and you're onboarding them, do you have any couple of tactics you use to make sure you bring them onboard and starting to onboard them most effectively? Nicolas Draca:   Yes. So actually took me time to find the right onboarding process. Of course you want to put that document together. That's what you then have to do. And I think that recently, I finally, found a good way to do it. And what is happening now is on my team when you start, you know on day one, it's already on your calendar actually when you start, there is day 30 - you have to present to the entire Marketing team. Naber:  Very, very cool. Nicolas Draca:   And what do you have to present? So we provide them a template. I'm a big template guy. And the template is... What is your job - you're familiar with that - in less than 15 words? What did you understand is your job? Less than 15 words. To execute your job, I have something called Relationship 15 - who are the 15 people for you to be successful? We can go deep on that. And list those people. You have five people which are for you to be successful, five for your team, and five for you to grow in your career. Then a stop, start, continue. And people are surprised by it. They're like, I just started. I'm like yeah, but I hired you based on your expertise. If you're super junior in your job, I'm sure you have a point of view on what we should Stop doing, Start doing, Continue doing. Naber:  And fresh eyes. Fresh eyes. Nicolas Draca:   Yes. And give your point of view. And it's just to empower people to say, tell me what you think. Like actually, I'd love to know what you think. And the last one is, what are you gonna achieve at the 60, and what do you plan to achieve at day 90? So this is a forcing function for many, many things to happen before the presentation. Because by doing that, by presenting this to the rest of the..So they presented the entire Marketing organization, to my entire team. And the goal is not like to boo them, and say this and that. That's no what it is about. It is about the person to be accountable for what they are going to do. Number two is to understand why they were hired for, and just set a high bar. Like not day one, but it's kind of like you're going to have to do that. And people realize that that presentation better be good. It just sets the bar for how they're going have to deliver and ship moving forward. And three is, for people in the team to understand who they are, and what they're going to do, what the new hire is going to do. So it solves a lot of things, and have those meetings & milestone day 30...Wherever I go next, I'll repeat that because I'm happy with it myself. Naber:  It's in the infamous Nicolas Draca playbook. So there's so much to pick apart there. Two things I want to you to expand on just a little bit. One is, you talk about, what is your job? I think it's from Fred Kaufman's Conscious Business - 15 words to define it...That you talk about, and when looking at some of your content you've referenced that in the past. You talk also about how that as an exercise can be a good calibration and way of helping manage up within your job? Can you explain that a little bit? Nicolas Draca:   Yeah. So what is happening, and it happened to me at the Twilio. I worked with somebody called Francois that I know really, really well. And it took us four months to be on the same page on what my job was. And you might find it silly, it's not silly. It's just that, you come as a new hire and you have a vision for what you want to do. And when it grows that fast, and it grows at that speed, you're going to have to be pretty, pretty clear about what you're going to do. And I think you have to be more clear about what you're not going to do. It's as important. And I think the key to it is being on the same page as your boss on what is your job? And we spend four months with Francois discussing it, where even on my one-on-one, I would bring it on a biweekly basis saying, hey, this is what I'm going to focus on. And I will get that feedback saying yes, but maybe. And I'm like, wow, we really have to get to the end of it. And the why of the discussion is pretty simple. One is, let's assume you do that. You decide by yourself and what your job is without agreement with your manager, meaning without sign-off and really being on the same page. After 12 months, you're going to do a 12 months review, and you're going to claim victory! You're going to think you're going to claim victory. You're gonna say, Hey, this is what I did. It is amazing. And the person is going to look at you and say, this is not what I expected from you. And you're like, what? I've been working my ass off building that team, shipping A, shipping B, shipping C, delivering here, moving that KPI. And if you replay it in your head, I'm sure it happens to many people in the past, where the person is looking at you saying, yeah, Nah, that's okay, congrats. And so you want to avoid that type of gap or misunderstanding on what you need to solve for. It's not only about your personal review, and progression in career, and everything, it's just about being sure that you tackle and address things that you were supposed to, in alignment with your boss. Because he or she may have other things to solve for, and they have a bigger vision, they have information you don't have, that needs to be to be solved when thinking about the overall strategy - which you could miss a piece. I had another boss at LinkedIn, it was the same like Nick, where I'm kind of intense, and I move fast, and I love to do things, an so on. And I close on the topic in a meeting, and two weeks later he would come back and say, what about that? And in my head I'm like, I don't understand. We already talked about that. I thought we we closed on it. And then you need to - listening is a big, big thing - pause, listen, and say, okay, it looks like I missed it. And the goal for you is not to push it and just repeat what you need two weeks ago, it's more to clarify and say, okay, what is the gap? What is the issue? And what do you expect from me? And you will see that, and I've seen it multiple times...Where people, and I do it the same with my team...If I have something bugging me, I'm like how can you solve that? And they're yeah, of course. And then they don't do it. And two weeks after I'm going to come back to it because I had it top of mind for me. I'm like, what is the progress on that? And they look at me like, what are you talking about? And so I think driving that alignment, managing up...It's more about aligning than managing-up I think, and setting up expectation, is key to success in a collaborative relationship. Naber:  Nice. Excellent. And one more quick side note on that. You had mentioned, so thinking about managing stakeholders, and we'll get to that in a second here. But managing close stakeholders in your close sphere - managing up, managing sideways, and managing down. You talk about this also it has an application to managing sideways and managing your stakeholders, correct? Can you explain that a little bit? Nicolas Draca:   Yeah, yeah. thanks for that, I forgot to mention it. Yeah, good catch. Yeah...So by being clear on what is your job... So first you're clear with yourself, which is a good starting point and this is where you want to start. You have managing up, and then again when you're in a company growing that fast, everybody has priorities, everybody has work to do. And you want, and I ask my teams do that when engaging on projects, when asking for bandwidth, and time from somebody else on your team or not on your team, you want to explain every time the why. Okay, you want to spend time and say, hey, actually I'd love for you to spend time with me, or allocate x hours of your time to my initiative. And let me explain the why and impact it's going to have. It's kind of a Sales pitch internal, it is a sales pitch. And to ensure that that person is going to focus more time with you that they would on another project. And I think explaining clearly the why, and what is your job is part of it, people will appreciate it. And if they disagree, or if they don't understand, just pause, put yourself in their shoes, try to understand what they have to solve for, what are the issues they have and why they're not getting it, and spend the right amount of time on that. When you build a a big Initiative, large initiative, you want to ensure that people are inspired by the project you're trying to lead and push. And I think this will help one, you get successful, two, people understand why they should spend time on it, and three, deliver and ship at scale. Naber:  Excellent. Thank you for that. Really good tips and insight. And then the last one I want to talk about within Second last thing I wanna talk about within talent. You mentioned the Relationship 15. Can you explain a little bit more about that? You kind of grazed over it, but I do think it's important. So the five, five, five, can you explain a little bit more about that? Nicolas Draca:   Yeah. So, what we do here is we try to get a sense and invite people, I invite people on my team or I do this across the company, also sometimes I did it here at HackerRank...Is can you please list...And I invite everybody to do that. It's always an interesting exercise...who are the five people for you to be successful personally, that work in our company. Then who are the five people for your team - and the team can be the team you belong to within Marketing... - to be successful? And who are the five people to help you grow in your career. Okay. And all of these people are mutually exclusive. So they are like 15 different people, right? And afterwards you do a 2x2, everybody loves a 2x2. One is connective tissue - low versus high. And the other one is core versus strategic. And you put the 15 names in that 2x2. It's up to you to decide on low versus high and connective tissue. Connective tissue doesn't mean that you need to talk to them on a daily basis. Okay, let me be clear. But it means that if you contact them, or you send them an email, they would reply to that email and make time available for you. So when you do that, people came to come to a realization most of the time that they have gaps. The first they are sometimes unclear about who should be those people. They realize that they have gaps. They realize that, hey, actually those 10 people within the company, they don't know what my job is, and these are the people you should interact with and explain because they are key to your success. They'd better know what you're solving for. And then as people put together a plan to say specifically, there is a gap on the not in your company for you to grow. And they put together a plan saying, Hey, I need to force myself to go to user groups, to conferences, and make friends, or get to start knowing people and learn from them to be able to grow. Again, it goes back from the assumption...Meaning in my day to day life, when when I work on a project, if it's a big initiative, one of the first thing I will do is I will ping between five and 10 of my friends saying, Hey, I'm thinking about that. That's how I would like to do it. What's your thought? What's your 2 cents? And I can tell you like within a day I get everybody's feedback. I listen to feedback. That's really important. That's another part is just not asking for feedback for the sake of it and process it, package it, and get your idea from V1 to V5 or V10, and learn from it. Naber:  Nice. Excellent. That's great. Okay. let's stop into, so we talked about talent, talk about hiring, onboarding, talked a little bit about about developing a dart, developing that talent as well. Understanding them as people where they want to go. from a, from a development perspective, let's hop into insights. you've talked about, moving from data to intelligence and you also have talked about smart data versus, not just big data. Explain the insights pillar to your, of your science, of Marketing pillars. Nicolas Draca:   Yeah. So on the Marketing side today we are, we are lucky because we have more and more data. We have data for everything. There is no lag of a, of metrics. on, on one end we're lucky on the other end it's overwhelming. and why? Because there's too much data and now you can spend your days and just looking at spreadsheets to everybody and a, as far as they know, you don't need a business by just looking at spreadsheet. All right? 12 hours a day. So here are the eight year is first based on your priorities and everything. I come from the science of Marketing. it's to be able to, and dishpan how are you going to measure success early on? and maybe the first time you do it, you don't have the right number. But I invite everybody to try it. Nicolas Draca:   And they're, I'm pick a number. and maybe their first quarter is to test your capacity to deliver up to that number, but what you wanted a success as to being controlled and then descend the dynamic of how you're going to get there. And w w when you are able to do that, the first time, then you'd be able, you're going to be able to build on it and become, become better. But I believe for that, for whatever you do in general, there is a measure of success that you can apply. and you should apply that measure of success, learn from it. My framework all the time is I have a high KPI and then I have free metrics reporting that KPI. I know I'm saying conceptual than meaning is there so many, as I mentioned, you could apply and when you have these under control and when this is working and you are able to predict, okay. Plus minus 10% what you're doing, it's to move to the next level. And being able to leverage meaning machine learning, data science, depending on the, on the team you have, if you have good Ascentis working for you to be a model is a big drewhich is to predict capacity of people to buy or to predict something unless at the time predict capacity of a customer too to buy your product. Naber:  Yeah. Excellent. And when someone has very little data or limited data, what's the mindset that they should have as they're getting started doing that? Nicolas Draca:   Yeah, so I think they are. so I don't, so first most of the time of people I have the data,and why? Because you have historical data and so the feedback everybody's gonna share is oh yeah, but they stopped. I'm yeah, okay. But it's still really, that's it. And so every time I build something, I'm going to go like hardcore Demand gen here. You're okay, well many SQL Sales qualified qualifying today, deliver next quarter. And I invite people, I'm like back and they're it's sex. I'm yeah, I got that part. Look back, it doesn't matter. And try to make a guess about how many and then try to define a target for yourself and you show you the next quarter and how many you want to deliver and you will, you will learn. So that's one. because looking at historical data, you always add something to learn. Nicolas Draca:   There is no perfect data and nobody, no marketer will tell you like you have the best data in the world. So, you just have to put your ego aside and just process of past data to try to understand what's going on. Or you can look at benchmark. of course, they are, there is no lack of website with benchmark data. I think as a core, you should look at historical data. And my guiding principle here is you just want to become better quarter of a quarter, right? If your number was 50, the way you want it to become 60, like something higher and let's these 10%, that's how I look at it. And you need to take into consideration the cycle that it wouldn't take you like three to six months, which is okay to understand it and to be able to grow it. Success all the time is being in control. Agasomething I learned in many companies is you can miss something like the word assist mess and not being in control and not understanding the why. If you're in control, it's a great starting point for you to become better at what you do. Naber:  Nice. I love that. That's great quote. You can put that on a, put that on a license plate, put that on a, on a tattoo, something like that. So two more pieces I want to talk about with an insights. one is, I mean, I don't know if people know this about you. You have six U s patents. I mean that's, that's ridiculous. So one of those patents that comes from the use of data insights and moving back against an account based Marketing model, yeah, you've gone from a data to intelligence and applied that to how can I impact revenue as much as possible. Can you talk a little bit about, your account based Marketing thought process structure, the mindset? yeah, but let's start there. Nicolas Draca:   Yes. So on the ABM you want me to talk about the patents, like what we did, how did we get there? Okay. so what we do, I go back to the talent buckets that we ensure that we spend 20% of our time experimenting, always. and why is because we live in a world where things are changing fast. and whatever you did and whatever failed six months ago doesn't mean it's going to fail today. So we, we build a culture, all empowerment where you can succeed or fail. And actually if you fail, it's okay. As long as you know why? that's why we go back to, yeah. You need to know why you need to be in control. And so by doing that, there are some experiments that are going to fail and and died and some other that are going to be highly successful. Nicolas Draca:   And here we were working with a teon the Sales op side, data science side and business insights. Okay. We'd love to predict propensity of an account to buy. And what we did initially, we started on a a on a Friday putting on a whiteboard. Like how would we score an account? And and today everybody in Sales and Marketing you the framework, your called decision, a demon waterfall. And that demon wonderful framework as a little bit of an issue is there's not yet you move from it lead a contact I mentioned to an account I mentioned. So more or less he does not really connect because in a perfect 12 you want to do a funnel, which is a full account funnel from Marketing qualified accounts. That's where the new concept of the time up to your SQL and close one business. So looking at this, we're okay, we need to identify, defined something called working quantified accounts. Nicolas Draca:   I think we called it ais. I count into our score. Initially the idea was to say, okay, let's look at all the contacts associated to the account, their level of engagement, and do kind of a weighted nps average on how, the account score should be. I'm geeking out a little bit, but as you can see, it started more with a brainstorming with somebody on my team called fat and saying, Hey, how should we think about that? And then explaining the why as a vision, partnering with Sales operation, partnering with a data fence theme and some of the tewe assembled this team saying, okay, this looks pretty cool. let's put some science behind it. what we did is what started an experiment, ended up being a success because it was one of the dimensioned core to how we will plan into account or location or account follow up. Nicolas Draca:   moving forward, at LinkedIn and with all the support of the company. We went through the patent process and after I think, I'm sure, you also when on the product side, where people looked at it and maybe integrated it in their algorithm. I'm not sure about that. I don't know what they did with it, but, that it was a great story. There's a, an experiment on a Friday afternoon discussion culture of hey, let's push it to the next level, see if it works. Partnering with people who could operation and being able to put it together. Naber:  Yeah, the common, yeah, that's what I was thinking. The combination of collaboration, cross stakeholder management, cross stakeholder partnerships and projects that you had to work on in order to get that done. Plus it's the vision that you had in order to get that done. It was, it was really impressive. so, one more, one more thing I want to talk about around data. Let's pull it up a level and we're going to talk about stakeholder relationships for

Guest: Daniel Sanchez-Grant - Director, Strategic Sales @InVision (Formerly @LinkedIn, @Rungway, @CEB) Guest Background: Daniel Sanchez-Grant leads Strategic Sales at InVision ($350M Raised, $1.9B Valuation), the digital product design platform used to make the world's best customer experiences. He's part of the International Leadership Team responsible for growing InVision's business outside of North America, and leads a group of senior sales professionals who are fully distributed across Europe. Previous leadership experience includes launching a cloud technology business in the HR/Culture space called Rungway, as well as several years at LinkedIn (IPO, $27B Acquisition) from pre-IPO startup stage to the acquisition by Microsoft. Guest Links: LinkedIn | Twitter Episode Summary: In this episode, we cover:   - A Fully Remote Workforce - How to Recruit, Hire, Manage and Onboard Teams for Success - Building Great Cultures @InVision and @LinkedIn - Strategic Sales and Executive-level Meetings - Preparation and Execution Full Interview Transcript: Naber:  Hello friends around the world. My name is Brandon Naber. Welcome to the Naberhood, where we have switched on, fun discussions with some of the most brilliant, successful, experienced, talented and highly skilled Sales and Marketing minds on the planet, from the world's fastest growing companies. Enjoy! Naber:  Hey, hey, hey everybody. Today we've got Daniel Sanchez-Grant on the show, affectionately known as DSG. He leads strategic sales at InVision. InVision's raised $350 million in capital, worth $1.9 billion valuation - a Unicorn. They're a digital product design platform used to make the world's best customer experiences. He's part of the international leadership team there, responsible for growing InVision's business outside of North America, and he leads a group of senior sales pros, who are fully distributed across Europe. Previous leadership experience includes launching a cloud technology business and the HR/Culture space called Rungway as well as several years at LinkedIn, six years to be precise, where the IPO'd and were acquired by Microsoft for $27 billion in the acquisition. He was there for pre-IPO startup stage to the acquisition by Microsoft. Here we go.! Naber:  DSG! Awesome to have you on the show, man. Thank you so much for taking the time to come hang out with me for a little while. DSG:     Naber, always a pleasure. Looking forward to the conversation. Naber:  Cheers, buddy. You're coming from London today, is that correct? DSG:     That is correct, yeah, based out of the WeWork on Chauncery Lane. Naber:  Chauncery Lane - write it down, everybody. Put it on your Google Map. Naber:  it's hard to know with you. You are, you're everywhere. You are all over the place. When I'm looking at your Instagram or any of your social feeds, you're everywhere. So we'll talk about that in a little bit here. What I want to do is go into a little bit of your background, probably personally first, and then we'll jump into professional, and then we'll hop into some of your super powers and some of the things you've observed as well as lived and executed over multiple businesses and multiple roles. I think people really lucky to hear from you today, which is great. DSG:     Awesome. Naber:  Why don't we start with you growing up a little bit personally. So I know that you've been mostly London through and through, which is a bit ironic considering how much you are all over the world for snowboarding, traveling with family, traveling with the partner, traveling by yourself, traveling with friends, and with all the global businesses and roles you've had. It's pretty amazing that you've been almost always in London. Give us maybe five minutes or so on DSG, Daniel Sanchez-Grant was growing up, and what your childhood was like. DSG:     Sure. So, I guess come from an entrepreneurial background. My mum was very successful business woman. She setup a company in the recruitment industry, and went to build that during a time where recruitment, and particularly the agency market in the UK was a really successful industry. And so I grew up in an environment where a high work ethic, a successful achieving kind of environment. Two older sisters, who in their own right very successful individuals, doing different careers. And so grew up in-and-around London, actually from a place called Staines. It's probably most famous for Ali G, of all things. Naber:  A-mazing, a-mazing. Nothing could come out of your mouth that would make you more proud than that. He's unbelievable, unbelievable. He's an amazing set of characters, and he's an absolute genius for what he's been able to do. And the people he's able to get on this show - what's the email look like, or the message look like, that comes to get that level of success rate and conversion rate for getting those people in your show? It's unbelievable. DSG:     Yeah. He's he's definitely become synonymous with the place that I grew up, so, that's quite funny. But, so look, spent a bunch of time there. Left school, relatively young, and joined the family business and spent four years in that business. joined with the idea of being there for a couple of weeks to help out during the summer, and fell in love with the whole environment. And four years later was still there and going strong. And so I think that was a huge part of shaping my professional perspective, and work ethic, and just loved being in a entrepreneurial environment and building companies. And so yeah, that was a lot of fun. Naber:  And what were your set of responsibilities in that business? DSG:     I think, to be honest, there wasn't anything, there wasn't...when you're building a company of that stage, when I joined it was four people in a branch environment in a place called Teddington. So, you don't really have a set of responsibilities, right? whether it's fixing the printer, or going and covering a temporary assignment on reception for one of your clients. The role was so varied from that point of view and therefore it just gives you a flavor of all aspects of business - from payroll, to customer service, to candidate management, business development. From that point of view, it was super fun. So in the early favor I was 17, totally clueless, probably more of a hindrance than a help to a lot of the talented people I worked with during my time. But, I got exposure to different ways of working. And that was just a small group, but such a talented, diverse group within that environment. Such different styles amongst the three or four consultants that we started with that, as an early career professional, just really inspiring and energizing exposure at a young age. So, how to run a business, how to service as costumers, how to think about building teams and a great culture. It was a lot of fun. So yeah, that was the early parts of my four years there. And I look back with nothing but fond memories of that experience. And I think also, it being a family thing, I think it brings a different level of purpose to the feeling that you get from building stuff and accomplishing things on a day-to-day basis. I think that's hard to replicate in other types of environments. Naber:  Yup. And that was LPR, correct? DSG:     Yeah, it was a Litchfield's Personnel and Recruitment, it was called. It started in Teddington, and then grew to be multiple branches, and 20 to 30 full time staff at one point, and hundreds of people working on a temporary basis. So yeah, that was a fun ride. Naber:  And you went through the roles and ranks to General Manager that business, is that correct? DSG:     Yeah. My mum, at the time, got to the point where she'd stepped back from the business. It was doing really well and had gone into an early retirement, and me and a bunch of people were running and different branches, different customers at that time. And so yeah, it was exciting...Got to a point where I was fairly integral into the running of that company, and obviously at 20, 21 years old, that's a lot of really good experiences quite early into how to drive a company, how to make sure that people are happy, and all of that good stuff. Naber:  I want to go off the script from some of these tech businesses that you've worked for, to talk about this just for a minute. So as a young professional...there's a lot of young managers in tech companies and a lot of young leaders in tech companies because, oftentimes, they'll promote internally, or for a lot of reasons. Sometimes that's just what they've always done. Sometimes it's because of speed. Sometimes it's because they have brilliant people, and they're just the best people for that role. But there's a lot of young leaders and young managers. For someone that is a young manager, a young leader, that is either managing or leading people that are older than them, or more experienced than them - that sounds something you had to do when you're relatively young. Is there any sort of mindset, or way that you think about, or set of advice that you've given to other people that are in the same scenario so that they can alleviate confidence concerns or not overthink it? Any advice or mindset that you can deliver to folks that are in that same scenario? DSG:     Yeah, so I think the first thing is that it's totally okay not to have all the answers, right? If I think about all of the teams that I have and have managed, the best teams, I'm surrounded by people even today who are much better than me at a whole bunch of things, and I love that. And so I think, just firstly, acknowledging that you're always going to be running teams where there's people who have a different point of view, more experience, a better skillset. And I think it's really about embracing that and not being afraid of it. And so, I guess that first thing is like, that's okay, and think about what it is that you do really well and play to those strengths. And then think about what, how do you harness the skills of others around you to make sure that you're benefiting from that collective experience. So yeah, I'd say that would be one of the core things for me. And also just embracing the fact that you're always, if you're going to build great teams, you're going to be surrounded by people that all the time. And that's something to be excited about, not afraid of. Naber:  Yeah, good point. I mean, you're just constantly working with inspiring people that you'd love to learn from - on the left of you and on the right of you - that's a really good thing to keep in mind. Especially the fastest growing businesses in the world, the people working at those businesses the people listening on this podcast, people that aspire to go to those businesses. It's just going to continue to happen. It's not slowing down, no matter how old or experienced you get. You're exactly right. That makes sense. DSG:     Totally. And I also think just because someone's on your team, be vulnerable, right? If there's something that they do really, really well, it doesn't mean you can't go and talk to them about how they do it and what they've done to improve that skill. And showing that interest, and recognizing what someone is really strong at, then using that as a conversation to help me improve on this thing, I think can be a really great experience when you're managing people, and definitely brings those two individuals having that type of engagement much closer together. Naber:  Yeah, totally. I've got a bunch of things I wanted to get to, so we can get into CEB, but one more question on that. Is there any way that you found that you've been able to facilitate one person learning really well from another, either as they come onboard into the organization, or so that your team is learning from each other, or teams that you're managing are learning from other teams you're not managing. Is there any way you found to be able to facilitate that, or processes you've been able to put in place in order to make sure happens? DSG:     Yeah, sure. So I guess, if you think about InVision at the moment, we're growing really fast, right? So in the last two years in our international business, we've added 60 people across a whole range of different roles and levels as we've grown. That's a really exciting environment to be in when you're bringing on great people. And then you try to think about how, particularly in a fully distributed, remote environment - how do you ensure every individual that starts that they're setup for success. And so, we've learned a whole bunch of things over the last two years, definitely made some mistakes on that journey, but one of the things that we've really focused on is that onboarding experience. What are the steps in a remote environment that are required for someone to get up to speed in their role as quickly as possible? What are the tools they need? What are the skills and knowledge that we need to be able to provide them with? How do we, in this distributed, unique environment, how do, we get that to them as quickly as possible. And so, we spent a whole bunch of time talking to people that had gone through the process, and we built a fairly comprehensive 30-60-90 day checklist - where we detail out in week one, here's all the people that you need to speak to. Here are your buddies across different functions. Here are the tools that you need to embrace. And really tried to create a framework, so that in that first 90 days there's real transparency around the people that you need to have relationships with, the tools, and then the processes. And we found with a tool like that, where the manager and whomever it is that is joining are working through it in a fairly systematic way, we can just ensure that people have connections in to the things that can help them be successful in their role. Naber:  And obviously we're tweaking and changing this all the time because the business is just so rapidly changing. But that's probably been one way - create transparency around the leading indicators that are going to make someone successful, and then the relationships that people need within that. So that would be one example. Then I'd say one other example - how do you drive collaboration amongst a remote team? Just because we're remote doesn't mean that we don't care about things culture, and learning, and self improvement, and development. So we're really heavily invested in ways in which we can continuously bring the teams together, not just remotely, but in person, and what do those engagements look, and how do we orientate those agendas around specific things going on in the business that are going to enable these people to be more successful. So it's an ongoing process, but fascinating to do it in an organization that one, is so rapidly growing, but two, doing it, in a fully distributed and remote all over the world. Naber:  Yeah, it's unbelievable. I mean, you guys are the largest distributed remote workforce on the planet - at least for fast growing tech businesses, if not for almost everybody. It's pretty unbelievable what you guys have been able to build. I love the gold that just came out of your mouth for the prescriptive-ness or the prescript-ivity, if you will. I don't even know if that's a word, but I made it up. But the prescriptiveness, that you get down to the details on the first 30 days, first week, you know, who to talk to, conversations to be having, relationships to be having, tools, process, etc. I think that's great for a lot of people to hear, especially those listening on these conversations, because, I think too many people overlook the onboarding experience as an opportunity to not just check boxes and get them access to tools, and email, and hardware, and maybe a buddy here, or a conversation, or a mentor there. It just got to be extremely prescriptive, especially in remote or decentralize environments, like tech businesses are always in. And I think that gold just came out of your mouth is really valuable for all these tech businesses that are out there. It's great. Thanks so much DSG. Let's move on to CEB. So you went from, you went from LPR to CEB. Tell us about that jump and tell us about what you're up to there. DSG:     Yeah, sure. So, CEB was actually SHL at the time, which were a talent management, technology services provider. They specialized in psychometric assessments. So, ability tests, metric tests, and they were actually one of my customers at LPR at the time. And so we were recruiting for salespeople, who, interestingly had a psychology background. This was an organization that was a leading...a market leader in occupational psychology, and how to really get the best of your talent across the entire lifecycle of an employee. I was really fascinated by them at the time because I'd spent four years in this recruitment market place trying to find companies, just great people at great companies. And what SHL really specialized in is how do you bring science to that process, and give companies the tools that enable you to identify behavioral traits, and preferences, and strengths and weaknesses. And as I got to know them as a customer, I was at this interesting crossroads in my career where I've been working with the family business for four years. I was 17 when I started, four years later, do I want to be running this forever? Or are other things that I need to go and do to test myself, expand my skills. As you can imagine, my mom is still one of my closest friends and mentors, but tough conversations have with someone who I can imagine on a selfish level, it's like, "I don't want you to go". But then obviously as her son was super supportive in me progressing and exploring my career. And so joined SHL in an inside sales role and progressed fairly quickly into Enterprise, field-based sales for them working with large, FTSE 100 companies and helping them with things leadership development, and employee development, talent management, recruitment and how they used assessments and services as part of that mix. Really great experience, and one thing I really took from there is value-based selling. How to really orientate your conversation around the customer and the challenges that they face, and how to build more solution orientated-type agreements. So yeah, it was an awesome experience with some really good people that I'm still in touch with today. And yeah, it was a super tough decision to leave that to be honest. Naber:  Yeah, I bet. SHL is an awesome business, and becoming part of CEB made them even stronger as well. You have so many good experiences it sounds within that particular role, when you move to LinkedIn, tell us about that jump. DSG:     Yeah, it was interesting. So I was, let's see, at Wembley Football Stadium for an event that I think an applicant tracking system provider was running. I was there in an SHL capacity with clients. Great day. I was actually sent there as a development opportunity, and I just remember the overall content of the speakers was great. But at the end of the day, a chap called Ariel Eckstein did a keynote at the time - I think it was 2010 - on this platform called LinkedIn. Naber:  That's so early, so early. DSG:     Yeah, it was,. It was new at the time, and I think social media, still back then, was a that little bit misunderstood, particularly in businesses. Everyone was like, how do we understand social media? And so, Ariel did this talk and what they were doing, and I think they've hit 50 million Members maybe at that point in time. And just this rocket ship growth, and how they were thinking about the role of something like LinkedIn in the talent marketplaces. It orientates it's professionals and networking. And I just left, totally inspired. It was a 40-minute talk. I was like, this is incredible. And just started hitting up everyone on LinkedIn I could find that worked at LinkedIn, and met a guy called Pat Traynor. And yeah, the rest is history to be honest. So I wasn't, it was one of these things where I wasn't looking to leave SHL, but the LinkedIn message was so compelling that I wanted to find out more. And again, when the offer came, it was a tough decision to make because I had so many good relationships at that company, and everyone was like, yeah, social media and LinkedIn, it's a fad. We're not sure. And it sends shivers down my spine to think that I may not have taken that role when I did, given the the experience I had there over six years and how many great people that I met. And so yeah, just one of these things I want to take a punt on. And yeah, thankfully it turned out in a really good way. Naber:  So you moved into, that's a great story, you moved into the Senior Enterprise Relationship Manager role looking after a bunch of customers around Europe, Middle East and Africa. Is that correct? DSG:     Yeah, back then the London hub was the EMEA presence, and I moved into a Relationship Manager role, and it was a new role. LinkedIn had just started to specialize away from these hybrid-type, customer-sales professionals to a more new business, relationship management, customer success type motion. And I went in at a relationship management level, and we were still trying to figure out the playbook for it and what that looked like. And it was fun, but it was chaos at the time, right. Hundreds of customers, no real process, but just a great environment to be in as we figured that stuff out, and new products coming to market, and working through some of those challenges. Yeah, it was fun. Naber:  Awesome. So I'm going to look at LinkedIn as a whole experience before you jump into the Manager, Global Accounts & Head of Relationship Management scope that you had. Because there's a link between, no pun intended, but there's a link between the businesses that you've been across at LPR, CEB, LinkedIn, Rungway and InVision. The businesses you've been across to been at extraordinarily different phases of the development & growth of that particular business. I want to separate two things right now and ask you about them, because I think these are two of your superpowers, and you've had a ton of exposure that other people can learn from. I want to separate two things - building great cultures, and building & retaining world-class talent and great teams. Naber:  So let's talk about building great cultures. How do you think about building...because when you moved to LinkedIn, that exposure you had to those cultures, same thing at InVision - I don't know about Rungway culture,, but I do know about CEB's culture - you've had exposure now to so many great high performing cultures of some of the fastest growing businesses in the world. How do you think about building culture? Maybe a set of principles, or a framework that you use, or at least what's your mindset and then I can dive into that a little bit. DSG:     Sure. I guess, if I think about LinkedIn, Rungway, and InVision - the common theme across all of them is just the purpose in those businesses, right? LinkedIn - connecting professionals to opportunity. I think 600 million people on that platform. The mission that they're sort of living every day, it's great. Rungway's mission - really powerful around, leveling the playing field for people in enterprises and giving people a voice on sensitive topics and access to mentorship, irrespective of what you look or sound, in quite hierarchical cultures. And then InVision - just this really powerful platform that's disrupting the way companies think about digital experiences, right? Every company in the world today is arguably a digital product company. Whether you're in pharmaceutical or automotive, or finance. The user experience now via screens is a huge differentiator for businesses and how they think about reorientating what they're doing, given the competitive landscape. DSG:     All of these companies had great missions, but I think about the culture in these different phases and really tying that to what you're trying to understand or achieve as a business. So if you think about InVision at the moment, we've got this really exciting products used by 5 million designers around the world, from some of the biggest companies - 100% of the fortune 100 - but we're still building in international, right? That's a lot of great things. But there's also challenging things that come with growing a team at breakneck speed, and adding people and changing process constantly. And so, I think when you think about culture, you've got to pull in the context of where you're at as a company. And really think about defining that with clear vocabulary, so that people can understand what it is the culture represents and the types of behaviors that are going to help you succeed as a business. DSG:     At InVision we've gone through a company-wide exercise of codifying the values and making sure that that's integrated into how we define what it means to be at InVision and the types of things that are gonna help you be great. And we've gone as far as building that into how we do employee engagement, and how we coach people and how we celebrate people. And so I would say like, creating a vocabulary around the culture and the values is huge. Engage your teams, talk to your business stakeholders, find out what it is you're trying to achieve as a company, and then use that context to define a set of language that people can really internalize and understand. And then think of ways in which you can bring that into everything you do. This can't happen in a vacuum. Too many companies stick values up on the wall, and they're great, but no one remembers what they are. And so I think these businesses, like LinkedIn, like Rungway, like InVision, in my experience, have all done a really good job of understanding the power of culture and creating an environment where people can understand it, and thrive in it, and contribute to it. I think that's an important part. Obviously lots of learnings through those, like InVision, we've grown so quickly, we haven't gotten it all right over the last couple of years. But as you go through these mistakes, you learn, and you try and improve. And we've just got some great people here trying to figure this stuff out. Naber:  That's great. So when you're thinking about...you mentioned defining, put together a set of language that's common across the organization and applying that to everything that you do. That sounds, both intuitive and maybe not intuitive at the same time, but those are the steps in the elements that you think are very important within building that culture. Do you have any foundational things that managers and leaders need to do in order to proliferate that language and proliferate the documentation, or the definitions you've put together for what the culture is, and how to bring that to the people within their teams? DSG:     100%. Yes. I think the documentation is really clear, like clear definitions and as many examples that you can bring to what it means, that that are real life examples of people who are living certain behaviors all the time, right? And so how then you bring that into all aspects of when you're recruiting people. Are you identifying those types of behavioral policies in the people that you're interviewing, and how are you doing that, and how can you make sure that that's consistent right through your hiring. Because again, InVision's a great business and we're growing quickly, but it's not great for everyone, right? As sales professionals, we're at a stage where we're growing a pace where things break all the time, and you've got to embrace and love fixing that, and building process, and establishing the fundamentals of the company, not just the selling part. And so how we make sure that as part of our values and how we interview, we identify people who perhaps have got brilliant talent and skill on the sales process, but perhaps aren't quite ready for the stage that we're at as a company where there's a build component too. That's really important. We need to set clear expectations with people coming into this company that there's so much that's good, but there's also some challenging stuff. And if you're not the type of person that wants to thrive in an environment where you're having to build things as you go, and develop process, and help contribute to the sort of foundational things that are going to help InVision grow in international - it's not going to be a great fit, and you're not going to enjoy our culture. But people that look at it and say like, that's exactly where I want to be and I want to have an impact beyond simply the sale, that can obviously be quite exciting for some types of people. So yeah, document it, define it, integrate it into the types of people that you're looking to recruit, and then also set a standard for what great looks in your company too. How are people developing themselves against those examples? How do we celebrate them in one-to-ones...it's got to be throughout everything, right? And if there are people living certain characteristics everyday, as a leadership team and as peers, we've got to create environments for them to celebrate and recognize each other for those because it's those types of things, I think, that just add to the quality of what we're doing culturally, everyday. Naber:  So you've inched into, thank you for doing my job for me, inched into the land of the other two things. Remember I said I want to separate two things, one culture building. And that was an excellent answer with a bunch of specifics around steps and different pieces that people can use within the organization to then build up a great culture. Let's move over to team building. You mentioned, all the way down to interviewing, evaluating talent based on the different language and specific pieces of your culture you want to bring into the organization as well as develop. So when you're thinking about building great teams, what fundamental common things have you seen or executed - because I know you've executed these at both LinkedIn and InVision - what common things have you seen between LinkedIn and InVision that they do extremely well with building great teams and building high performing teams? DSG:     So I'd say, both organizations do a really strong job of standing, what it is that they're offering, right? What's the value proposition to an employee joining LinkedIn? And in the same vein, what is it at InVision? Obviously their two distinctly different organizations, and those things will look different, but you've got to understand what is it that you're offering. All of the great things, but also then you've got to be super clear on all of the challenges too, and make sure that as you're taking someone through a hiring process, if they arrive on day one, what they get in the hiring process is exactly what they feel and expected and in that one experience. So I think both companies do a really good job of understanding that a little bit in the context of where they are. And again, we've made mistakes, over the last couple of years, built the team really quick. There's definitely things that we've learned over that process, but we've got to make sure that when we're looking for people, the types of people that we hire are going to thrive and love what it is that we have to offer, and that people that understand it and choose to opt out, that's completely cool as well. And so I think definitely, some pieces there. And then I think InVision, and to a certain extent, I think LinkedIn did this well, how do you bring your teams into that process too, and give people a feel beyond, say a hiring manager, of the different types of individuals? InVision's got some really strong individuals in our teams and they play a big part in our hiring process. if I think about the last few hires that I've made, part of the feedback that we got from them, is they loved the sessions they got with people on my team. And that was a real opportunity for them to dig in on what it's really like. I think bringing your employees into that experience and giving candidates that perspective through someone on the team's experiences is another powerful tool for telling that story. Naber:  Yeah. Let's actually pause on that for a minute in drill into a little bit more. How does that work? How are you bringing the team in, what's the process, or how are you bringing your teammates into that mutual two-way evaluation process as they're evaluating the candidate and the candidate evaluating what it's actually to be in that role as well as the culture of the business. How are you actually doing that in the candidate experience? DSG:     Yeah, definitely. So I guess, we have set criteria through the process that we're interviewing people against. So let's say a candidate gets to a stage where I've had a couple of conversations and they're doing really strong, but there's an area that I'd love us to continue to dig in on. I'd provide that framework to someone on my team - give them all of the notes, the context - and they would then be equipped to go and have that conversation. But there would also be a flavor of like, this is a two way process, and I'm always pushing on candidates to own this experience a little bit too. Like, we can do what we can to share our perspectives, but they should be interviewing us as well. And I want candidates coming in eyes wide open to all of the great things and all of the challenges that we face. And I think setting those expectations and creating a framework for people to have them is a great way just to be transparent, and give the team access to the types of people I'm speaking to. And there's nothing better than an individual in the team coming back and saying - this person was absolute an rockstar, and having that cultural validation from other people too. Naber:  I love how you bring your team into it so explicitly. You've mentioned multiple times something around the candidate choosing just as much as the company's choosing. And I've seen a couple of the things that you've written about, and you're talking about that two way experience and the choices on both sides - the candidates have the power, the company has the power. Reminding themselves that mutual evaluation process is extremely important. You write about that, I think in one of your LinkedIn articles as well. When you're going through that process, what explicit questions or types of examples are you using or asking for to help the candidate evaluate whether or not they are right for the stage of business? Like you said, InVision's of kickass set of products, company, great people, great culture, really fast growing, raised a bunch of cash, high valuation. On paper, it's a badass opportunity. At the same time, it's just not right for people, you said at the, at different phases of a business because some people just aren't ready for that, or they wouldn't thrive in that environment. How are you asking questions or what types of questions or examples you trying to get to make sure the candidate can make that evaluation themselves? DSG:     Great question. I guess just speaking openly about some of the specific challenges, right? If I think about our sales process here, the designer is so important in our company. The role of design in businesses, we want to elevate that voice, and we see the role of design and having more and more strategic influence in an organization, in terms of when an organization gets it right it's driving true business outcomes. And so the designer is everything for us. But that's just one stakeholder and several that we have to work through. And our process, beyond simply a champion in design, also we'll have a security component, and a data privacy component, and the legal components, the sales process can be long and complex. And then there are some of the cultural norms. In Germany for example, cloud is still in new and challenging technology for a lot of big businesses. And so some of our sales cycles in those markets take a lot longer, and therefore the resilience to work through that time, but also the discipline to manage the process and the stakeholders step by step and do all of those leading indicators up until the point that we're able to work on a partnership with the customer and sign that off - those are certain qualities that not every cell's environment will have. And I think the more that you can be specific about those types of things and look for evidence and examples of someone being able to work through that in what they've done historically, but also thrive and enjoy that type of thing versus other sales cycles that might have fewer stakeholders and the less complicated paper process. And so I think the more that you can be specific on examples in your process and bring that to life for an individual...I'm always looking for people to opt in, sell them a little bit against it where the fight is, like, this sounds exactly what I'm looking for rather than overselling too much, and finding that some of this stuff becomes a shock to people. Naber:  Great tactic. I love that. When you were at Rungway and and when you were at LPR, when you don't have a brand behind you, and you're still a small business or even if you're really high growth business that's really great at what they do in tech, you are still an unknown quantity or an unknown entity to so many people, that you don't have the brand out there that says, come to us. We're going to attract people right away. So I think it's extremely important to remember when you don't have a brand that you still need...because your conversion rates at the back end and the middle end of the funnel for companies that have great employment value propositions and great employment brands like InVision or LinkedIn, those conversion rates are so much higher than a startup or or a midsize tech business. So I think that small and midsize tech businesses find it extremely hard to play the devil's advocate you just mentioned within the candidate interviewing and recruitment process to make sure that they're telling them transparently - these are the things that aren't rosy all the time, or these are the things that are really challenging that you may find difficult. I think it's even more important in those small midsize businesses when you don't have that brand equity, when it's really scary to do it, because you want to attract the best people and you're scared of someone looking in and seeing all those blemishes, if you will. I think it's even more important to do that. So I think that using that at InVision, using that at LinkedIn as a way to get candidates to, self identify the right opportunity, is is amazing that you guys do it, number one. Number two, I love the examples you used. Especially in different environments, different stages of disruption in the adoption for cloud based technology, as an example. And Germany versus the UK, as an example. I think those are great, nice examples. Solid. Thanks man. Naber:  Last couple things here, then we'll hop into some rapid fire questions. There's two more things that I want to specifically discuss. One is around building and reengineering a sales process so that it matches a customer facing, customer focus versus an internal focus. I think that you've gone through, in all likelihood in two different businesses both at LinkedIn and then maybe even more explicitly at InVision, where you've gone through a process of reevaluating and reengineering some of that sales process. What would you say to people that are trying to build a customer focused sales process and experience you've had engineering one towards that versus, focusing on yourself and your own internal process? DSG:     I think, if I take the InVision experience...InVision, has this really powerful brand in design, we love the designe. We spend a huge amount of time going beyond our product to thinking about how do we drive value in the community and the elevate this new growing community in businesses where designers now are differentiators for them. And so, if I think about that community piece, and we do things design leadership forum, which is a community for design leaders where we've got a thousand people around the world that we bring together for these intimate dinners. And it's about networking and it's completely tool agnostic, but it's like how do we create a platform for people that are going through rapid change in their organization where there's not a playbook for the type of growth that they're experiencing, the number of products they're having to design for, the number of stakeholders that are having to collaborate with. And so I guess the first piece is, how as a company do you recognize that you've got to drive value into the community that you serve beyond the products. To help just elevate the overall category and create best practice sharing and knowledge. So there's a piece around just making sure that you're heavily invested in that. And it's really inspiring to work at InVision because the content that we produce and the investment that we make into helping these individuals, and develop these new playbooks, and scale their design teams, and share that best practice - that helps. And I think from a sales process point of view, because the product is so strong and that we started as this self service business where, 5 million people sign up to InVision and now I use it to collaborate design ideas and stake holders, a lot of the conversations sometimes in the earlier phase would start at that product and feature level. And so one thing that we did to help in that early phase of the process was we've developed something called, we call it a value pyramid. Essentially it's just a research framework that starts at the company's most strategic goal, breaks down what their strategic objectives are and challenges, and then ways in which we can create value for that. It's an executive summary slide, and it's really just a framework for researching what's this company talking about online that relates to digital and trends impacting their company, and how can we start every single conversation with a customer around those types of topics as part of the agenda, so that we're not being pulled straight into the products and features piece, but more into how what we do impacts real strategic business outcomes. DSG:     And so that's one thing that's really helped us elevate our conversations beyond the products, which is important and we want to do, but connects us more to what a company is actually facing in their organization. And how does design play a role in fixing some of those things? That would be one example. Another is how do you then design processes outside of the design persona for us also to create value, right? We have more engineers on the InVision platform now than designers because so much of what's getting created in companies is this design idea that needs to be socialized across so many different business functions. Engineering being one, business stakeholders, legal, compliance, marketing. How do you get as many people involved around the design idea as early in the process so the end outcome is that much better. So for us, it's how do we go to different types of personas and have that value based conversation as well, outside of design, so that we can speak to the value of this operating system for all of that digital product, design, etc. And so lots of work around that. And the final thing, we've developed a customer business review framework, which is really a template for ensuring that in our existing customers we're sitting down at least once a quarter and having a conversation about what's new in their organization, what challenges they're facing as a function, and how we can bring value through the different things that we do. And so, I think these types of tools just give our customer teams, more ammunition to spend more time on the customer than they do on features and our products, etc. Naber:  Hey, one quick question to dive into a bit of detail on your review documents that you have with the customer. You've done so many of these with executives both at LinkedIn and at InVision, as an individual you have done so many, I know your team has too. Can you talk a little bit about what that document looks like? Either the length of it or the summary of what's in it, just so people get a sense for what you're including in that presentation or that document. DSG:     Sure. Yeah. I guess, before even getting to the documents, so much of it is about what it is you're trying to achieve as the outcome of the meeting and who needs to be there. So before you even get to the document component, what stakeholders do I need to have in this conversation to ensure that we truly move the conversation forward and are as connected as possible to the challenges of this business faces. So the preparation that goes into defining the stakeholders, selling the value of why bringing those different types of people together in a meeting. You win and lose in the prep and all of that piece. So just make sure that this isn't a tick box exercise, but a truly strategic tool to figure out who needs to be there, why do they need to be there, and how do I communicate the value of these different functional leaders coming together to have a conversation around their company? DSG:     And if you can get that piece right, selling the value and getting the right stakeholders, prepping to ensure that the outcome that you're trying to design for is the one that you've reach - that's a huge part of it. The framework itself, I think orientate it around a clear agenda that's aligned to the outcome. Make sure that the lion share of the meeting is spent on the stakeholders and the individual challenges that they face, and how those are barriers to the outcomes that they're trying to achieve as a company. If you can leave every single customer business review having understood the three core challenges that a company spicing and why, and what are those barriers to them being successful - To be honest, that's a huge part of it. The rest feels downhill. Obviously the more insight you can bring to those conversations, insights driven from what the industry are doing, perhaps benchmark companies that they look to and see as really inspiring, whether that's in their industry peer group or outside of it, ensuring that you gathered that insight as part of your prep and that you lead with that - particularly when you've get executives who are a key part of making sure all those types of engagements successful. Naber:  Awesome. Great Segue too. So the last thing I want to talk about is selling to power and selling to executives. You just gave me a great segue. One of your superpowers that I think a lot of people admire is your ability to have really smooth, easy, fluid conversations that are very substantive, while at the same time, hugely impactful. Ha, I'm giving you the feedback that other people have both told me and that I've observed myself. But the point is, those characteristics as well as your structure and your science behind it make you very good at selling to executives and selling to power. Do you have a framework that you use or a set of principles that you use when you talk to executives in executive meetings? You've just done that so much at CEB, at Rungway, at InVision, at LinkedIn, you've done extremely well. What sort of framework or set of principles or using while you're setting up the agenda and having that conversation? DSG:     Yeah, I would say the first thing that always goes through my mind is to try and look at the meeting from their perspective to try and put myself in as much as what I think is going on in their company. Again, from the research I've done from the conversations I've had. A recent example of someone on my team, they're working with a large financial services organization, and over the last six months I would say the conversations they've had across that organization with all types of stakeholders across the business, and the time they spent just listening and gathering insight and understanding - nothing to do with communicating what InVision does, but really what this business is trying to achieve and the barriers that are stopping them, maybe reaching those things in the context of an annual report or anything else that you can find out about what they're doing strategically - all of that enabled us to, when we sat down with the CMO, in 30 minutes communicate more insight to that individual than perhaps he had been exposed to in a little while. And so I guess for me, you've got to do the groundwork. There's no point turning up to these executive meetings with some sort of discovery conversation framework. You get short amount of time, they want to be educated, you've got to have some type of insight. And you've gotta be super clear on the outcome that you want from that individual. And so for us in that specific example, we wanted his sponsorship on something and we were super clear about that and had earned the right to ask for it because we had turned up with a very clear vocabulary, framework, ask and the insight based on a ton of ground work we've done in that business. And so, for me it's just do the research, do the prep, look at it from that perspective. Know that they've got a short amount of time where they could be talking to any type of vendor, and therefore if they can't leave that room feeling they've learned something or got something clear that they can action, I would say go back to the drawing board. Naber:  Nice. That's great. One quick follow-up to that. You mentioned prep and doing the pre work multiple times in this conversation. How important is it to have, or do you need to have specific examples within their company on what's going on, or a strategic insights from their business - from an annual report, or inside conversations you've had, or things you can find online? Or do you feel you can go in with some sort of, either your competitor does this this, or other types of organizations you have said x, y and z? How important is it to have something company-specific versus more general but that applies to their industry or their competitors? DSG:     Yes. It's a great question Naber:  One quick insert in here. The reason I ask that is because that is a product of a lot of time that someone spends doing the pre-work, whether it's hours, or whether it's an hour. And I know that they evaluate the time that they're going to spend as to whether or not they do it or not. And that's why I'm asking that question, because I know that comes up on a daily basis people sitting down doing that pre-work. DSG:     Yeah. Çompletely. I would say firstly, it's about the stage in the process & the ask. In the example that I gave to you, the ask was quite clear about how we can help them with a recommendation about their organization. Right? So it wasn't necessarily the start of the conversation where we we're looking to build a relationship. We had done a lot of stakeholder engagement across lots of functions at a quite senior level, C- minus one or two in some cases. And in this example it was like, here's our recommendation, here's how it's been validated across all of these people with all of this business case. Will you support it? So that, I would say in that stage is a different type of executive engagement, where you need to have done the ground work. In an earlier stage where perhaps the executive engagement is more at the beginning of a process, where you're looking to start top down and go straight in at that level. I think any type of insight that is anchored in what you know about the company, what you know about the industry, what you know about their benchmark peers - is really strong. If you're at the beginning of something and your ask is maybe introductions to more people on their team, or them to work with you on a specific problem that you solve really well as a company. I think that's a different type of ask, but equally requires the same amount of prep, right? And I go back to what's the size of prize and what is it you're trying to achieve in the context of the goals that you have? And if this is something that you genuinely believe with this person is going to move your business forward. There's no amount of timeframe on the prep that, in my mind, is not worth doing. If you truly want to meet the outcome and you've decided that that's a key priority for you. Naber:  Great answer. DSG, you've been excellent with your time. Let me run through some rapid fire questions and then we'll wrap up, that okay? DSG:     Go for it. Yeah. Naber:  Your favorite place to snowboard in the world? What is it? DSG:     Tahoe, dude. Easy. Naber:  Tahoe, nice! That was so fast! Why Tahoe? Naber:  I've just got so many great memories there. I learned to board in Tahoe. It became for me and just the group of group of friends, somewhere that we would try and go at least once a year as part of kickoffs that we did and stuff that. And so I've just got so many great memories of learning to board there, great days on the slopes, hanging out with friends. Yeah, it's absolutely awesome. Naber:  Oh, love it. Okay - second question. Best food city in the world? DSG:     Ooh. I'll say London. Naber:  That is such a cheating answer. That's so cheeky that you would say that. So I just saw that you were in Italy not too long ago and I thought to myself, you've been a lot of places with a lot of good food, especially in the last few years. So London is, London is still your answer. DSG:     Amalfi coast was incredible. Obviously loved the food and Italy, but London's just so international, so diverse, so many great restaurants. Yeah it's it's a pleasure for me. Best city in the world. Love living here. Naber:  Love it. Love it. Okay, your best one or two interview tips for someone that is going into an interview for a role soon? I know you've written about this, and you've done a shed load of interviews. You've also advised people and companies on this type of stuff. Any interview, one or two interview tips that you would deliver? DSG:     I would say, research the person that you're interviewing with. Look at the company, there's so much available online now to individuals, there's no excuse for it, right? So Glassdoor reviews, LinkedIn, people that work there, people with similar job titles, who invest in the company, what sort of portfolio do they have? Who's on the board? To be honest, there's so much available to everyone now, and so I would say all aspects of those things would be, would be really important. Naber:  Awesome. Do the prep. And then last question is around overcoming age in senior roles. You've had a lot of large responsibility at a young age, even in your teens and early twenties. Any advice for making that an asset versus a liability? A lot of people are...I know I asked a question similar to this...but any either general advice or advice to those that are younger with a lot of responsibility? DSG:     I would just say be yourself. Acknowledged gaps. From my point of view, again, there's still so much that I have to learn and improve on, and I think just be comfortable with that, right? Whether you are managing people that have more experience than you or not, whether you work in environment where your peer group, find common ground with people and just embrace who you are and take a level of enjoyment in what others brings to the conversation too. So I think as long as you're not trying to be something that you're not, then you'll be absolutely fine in my opinion. Naber:  Hey everybody, thanks so much for listening. If you appreciated and enjoyed the episode, go ahead and make a comment on the post for the episode on LinkedIn. If you love the Naberhood podcast, we'd love for you to subscribe, rate and give us a five star review on iTunes. Until next time - go get it.

Guest: Benny Gould - Global Head, Business Influencer Program @Facebook (Formerly @LinkedIn) Guest Background: Ben Gould leads the Business Influencer Program at Facebook ($517B Valuation, 2.37B MAU). With over 15 years international experience working across Asia-Pacific, Europe and North America, Ben has been instrumental in the growth of SaaS technology startups and silicon valley companies like LinkedIn ($27B Acquisition by Microsoft, successful IPO in 2011) and Facebook. Currently, he is focused on giving executives the tools, tactics and best practice to share their authentic voice across Facebook's family of apps. Guest Links: LinkedIn | Facebook Episode Summary: In this episode, we cover: - Building New and Emerging Markets at Hypergrowth SaaS Companies - Great Culture Proliferation at Facebook and LinkedIn  - Global Strategic Deal Orchestration - Selling to Executives and Power Full Interview Transcript: Naber:  Hello friends around the world. My name is Brandon Naber. Welcome to the Naberhood, where we have switched on, fun discussions with some of the most brilliant, successful, experienced, talented and highly skilled Sales and Marketing minds on the planet, from the world's fastest growing companies. Enjoy! Naber:  Hey, hey. What do ya' say there team? We've got Benny Gold on the show today. Ben Leads the Business Influencer Program at Facebook. Maybe you've heard of them - $517 billion valuation, 2.37 billion monthly active users. I would love to see the rounding error in millions on those monthly active users. With over 15 years of international experience working across Asia Pacific, Europe, and North America, Ben has been instrumental in the growth of SaaS technology startups in Silicon Valley. Companies like LinkedIn, who was acquired by Microsoft for $27 billion after a very successful IPO in 2011, and companies like Facebook, which he works for now. Currently, Ben is focused on giving executives the tools, tactics, and best practices to share their authentic voice across Facebook's family of apps. Here we go. Naber:  Benny! Awesome to have you on the show man, thanks so much for joining us. Benny Gould:    Thanks for having me. Naber:  All the way from London town. I've got so much that I want to talk about and explore with you today. Tons of stuff personally, tons of stuff professionally. We've known each other for a bit of time now, which I feel lucky to say, but I want to help the audience grow and get to know you a little bit more I do. So what I want to do is go through a little bit about you personally. I know you grew up in Melbourne, going through your childhood with interests like mountain biking, and playing football on the weekends, and you got into DJ'ing. And then you were at school, and you left school so you'd go into hospitality, and explore, and also do a bunch more DJ'ing. And you've lived all over the world and explored all over the world. Melbourne, London, a couple times backpacking, world traveling. So why don't we take a step back from all that and give us maybe a five minute synopsis or journey of what it was growing up in the life of Ben Gould? Benny Gould:    Yeah, thanks very much. And yeah, appreciate having me on the show again. I grew up in Melbourne, only child, Melbourne in the southern part of Australia, for those that don't know, comprises of mainly inland living. So we have a bay, but we also have the mountains. And so I grew up in the mountains as an only child, quite far from school and friends that I went to school with. So hobbies became a part of what I did. So Mountain biking, given the area that I lived in was something that I was really drawn to, and something you can do on your own and makes you buddies as well. So when I wasn't mountain biking, my dad would give me these chores that I absolutely hated. And that would be, packing the woodshed or picking up sticks on the weekend, which I still have nightmares about and fearful of doing any manual labor. Benny Gould:    Growing up was an awesome childhood, amazing family. Came from a family that ran their own business. My Dad had an entertainment company for 35 years managing initially original artists, and then went on to manage cover bands for the best part of 30 plus years. Wow. What are Australia's best well known, musicians and bands for many of which are probably over the age of 60. Naber:  Very cool. Benny Gould:    But yes, I grew up in a family where dad was very much entrepreneur and very much a sales guy, and mom was very much helping out in the business for the first 20 years of my life, and then went on to sort of support the family build houses and all those sorts of things around us. But yeah, amazing childhood. And then left Melbourne, the hills, to go and hit the big city really just prior to turning 18, actually decided that I wasn't going to go to college and finished actually high school a little earlier than, than completion. And then went to do I a apprenticeship in hospitality and was thrown straight into the kitchen for a stint working for a head chef. I learned very quickly not to any smart remarks or adolescent without being thrown something from across the other side of the kitchen. But it was the great start of a 3 year journey in hospitality in different parts of the hotel and hospitality business Naber:  The stories you have when you work in hospitality are just unbelievable, unmatched almost. Benny Gould:    Yeah, absolutely. The key learning from that was customer service, I think. Today that's purely embedded in the way I personally approach things and professionally approach things. But yeah, customer service was definitely the last skill that I learned through that journey. Naber:  Very good. And, since you moved to Sydney, well, even before you moved to Sydney, you've probably had travel in your blood for a long time. You've been all over the shop. I know that you have lived in Melbourne, you lived in London before. I think you went backpacking around Europe for six months. you've told me a little bit of story of stories about those, but tell us a little bit about your travel experiences and when that started for you, and ultimately what it means to you, up to this point. Benny Gould:    Yeah, so again, going back to family, my mom actually traveled at a very young age in the late seventies to Europe. That was sort of, consider 1977-78 you wouldn't get on a plane and have a short flight to Europe, she would take a number of stops. And so backpacking was a part of her life really when she was only 18-19 years old. So, when I was growing up, she'd always really throwing me into the direction of going to travel. And academia wasn't really front and center of our family growing up either. Neither mum or dad had gone to University. So they said, look, life skills are better learned, and the best way to do that is to get over to the other side of the world outside of your comfort zone. And so when I was 22 and had worked a couple of jobs in order to save enough money to go to London, I got my visa and settled in London working in a pub to begin with. Funny story - first job in London, obviously I was relatively nervous as a 22 year old going to a job interview...But strangely dressed in a suit, to go and work at a pub. And I think that she felt bad for me, to be honest. She gave me the job on the spot and was like, don't wear the suit to work tomorrow. You're living upstairs earning adding five pounds an hour. Naber:  It reminds me of the scene from Step Brothers. Benny Gould:    Ha, exactly. So, that was the start of the travel journey. And really, I lasted only one year in London / Europe traveling. It's probably partly the reason I'm back. It's just a proof to myself that I can last more than 12 months...So that was about life experience, and then I spent the best part of four or five months traveling throughout Europe and meeting a whole bunch of interesting people, and then landing a job in real estate - which was my first sales job, which was brutal. The worst and the best part of my life experience for sure, when it comes to work, but learned a bunch from that experience, for sure. And then found myself, after a year, bringing back to Australia a whole bunch of interesting personal life experiences and professional life experiences. And then, having a desire to definitely travel the world for the future was something that was going to be not too far around the horizon. Naber:  Awesome. I think that brings us to, does that bring us to Hays? Or were you the Acendre before that? Benny Gould:    Yeah, 2005 - Hays Naber:  So let's walk through for maybe three to four minutes a journey of your professional jumps, let's call them. Hays, Ascendre, LinkedIn, Bondi Yoga house - if you don't throw that in there I will, and then Facebook. So walk us through the journey and the steps that you took and why you went to each one, why you jumped companies as well as jumped roles - not jumping as in the negative way of jumping as a positive way, took advantage of the opportunities. And then we'll dive into a few of the things you've learned at each one of those places and talk about some of your super powers you've gained along the way and, and some frameworks that you've learned from both those companies as well as your experiences. Benny Gould:    Yeah, definitely. And, the saying that always runs through my mind when I talk through these examples - It's the man of many talents, master of none. And it completely applies to me. I'm sure in the dictionary if you had that, I would probably pop-up... Naber:  Your beard would pop up as a silhouette. Benny Gould:    There would be two photos - one pre-beard and one post-beard. Naber:  Haha, I prefer the post-beard, but I do like to pre-beard though - underrated. Benny Gould:    Yeah, probably another story we'll to when we get to the Yoga portion. Benny Gould:    So yes, I landed back in Australia, and for the first few months tried to find work as a 23 year old, having spent a year in London. Probably a little bit of the confidence out of London - oh year, it'll be easy to get a job back in Australia with the UK experience. But it wasn't the case. I think it was a very candidate heavy market, and not a job heavy market. So it was very reliant on skills, and particularly university qualifications, and all the things that I didn't necessarily carry. But I did have enough confidence, I guess, in being able to present myself in a way that I thought I could add value. And so I applied to a job, actually Hays were advertising at the time in FMCG. I think from memory, it was a sales rep for an alcohol company. And I thought this would be fun, young 20s working for big company, going and doing all the promotional nights and selling the product, that'd be fun. And some buddies that had been doing that, and I thought, great, you get a car with the job and you get a phone and all these fancy things you want in your late twenties. So I applied for the job, and then pretty much within a day, Hays the recruiting company had actually replied and said, "Hey, look, you're not of interest to the job." And so I ended up getting in touch with that particular manager that messaged me, and I ended up managing to get them on the phone and saying, "Hey, you guys are recruiting I see at the moment - I'd to apply. I have no experience. But it clearly sounds you either have no experience either because you don't understand the candidates that you're...I was probably too cocky to be honest, but called them out on the way that they were recruiting and said, well, I'm gonna apply for the Hays job, and I'll show you that when I'm, hopefully successful, that I can look at candidates in a different way. And so they said, well, fair pitch. And so within three weeks I got the job and I started my first day at Hays. So I probably talked that manager into giving me a job. Naber:  Ha, that's alright - he probably appreciated the candor. That's good. Benny Gould:    Yeah, that's right. And it was amazing because I think once I got to do the job, I really did understand the person on the other side of the conversation. And I think, being a candidate in a candidate-heavy market where it's competitive and there wasn't a lot of jobs around, I was able to, I think at that time, position with candidates that your experience on your CV isn't necessarily the most important thing. That culture and values is really important when it comes to who you are and how you represent yourself. So I felt that was sort of something that I started to learn and started to build on that muscle as part of the recruiting business. And in four years working for that company was really lucky and fortunate to have grown from a junior consultant on a very, very low wage to manage a team of seven people towards the end of my tenure. and have incredible life and professional experience meeting some of the most amazing people that I'm still friends with, more than 15 years later, today. Naber:  Awesome. We'll get back to culture and culture building in a little bit because I want to talk about that. I know that that's something that you're both passionate about and have a lot to say about. So let's go from Hays, through to Acendre, through LinkedIn. There's a few things I'm want to talk about with your experiences, both from Hays through Acendre, through LinkedIn that I think people want to hear about those key continue. So, why the jump from Hays, and so on. Benny Gould:    Yeah, so a buddy of mine now, that I worked with at Hays, he moved to this company called NGA.net, which now is called Acendre. It was a SaaS company, and the SaaS company was focused on applicant tracking systems. So the same ways in which candidates would apply for job in the recruiting business, this company built software. And they were a Melbourne-based startup. So my buddy that I worked with in the banking team at Hays moved across to this organization and said, "Hey, you should come join". And before you know it, I ended up working at NGA. What was amazing about that business, in a a short summary, was it was a small startup company in tech, in cloud. They were probably turning over a few million dollars a year, for such a small business. Had a list of clients in the government space that would blow your mind, from the Department of Defense, to the Australian Tax Office, to many authors. I suddenly learned that there was a really interesting way to learn from others that were outside of sales. And I mean that in the sense of the startup had everything from development, to engineers, to product, to customer success. A proper SaaS business as we know today. But coming from a service oriented organization, and the experience that I'd had for real estate and through recruiting, had meant that it was really taking lean in quite a different direction. And then also, the last thing about Acendre, was one of the most talented people I've ever worked with in my career, I worked with him, very closely with him at that company, and he taught me so much about presenting to a public audience, and to doing your research, and knowing your product, and a lot of things that are really about preparation and being ready to walk on stage and be your best. And so yeah, forever to this day, thankful to him, for coaching me in that way. But yeah, that was a great experience. Naber:  Let's pause there for a minute. Because you made the jump from a people services business to a software business. A lot of the sales and marketing leaders that are bringing people in and hiring from people services or non-software backgrounds, or salespeople going into software sales businesses, they're going to have to make that jump. And that is something that is either one scary for the person or too scary for the hiring manager, or the leader that's hiring those groups of individuals. Especially as I need to start diversifying, as I start tapping out some of the talent pools that are in the SaaS or software businesses that they've been recruiting from. So how does one keep the 1.) appropriate mindset and 2.) what are some of the principles or things that people should keep in mind as they're making the move from a people services business into software - as far as how you sell, and what your mindset should be while you're selling to those businesses? Benny Gould:    Yeah, for sure. So essentially for me, I look at it in a very different way. So I think, largely what we're doing business is all part of a supply chain. So when we think about process and how that works, if I'm in a service business that's a recruiting company, and I moved to a SaaS business that sells recruiting software. As part of the same supply chain, we're delivering to an end user or end customer. So instead of talking about the process to recruit talent, I'd be talking about the technology to recruit talent. So yes, they have upskilling in terms of product. Naturally, that came to me early when I was a teenager, early when I was building websites to make a few bucks here or there. So tech and internet technologies was of interest to me. So naturally learning a product coming from service business was something that I was passionate about. But fundamentally it's actually relatively similar. And ultimately I think it's more about aligning with the persona that you're working with, or managing the conversation. So if you're a people person, you're going back to the customer service experience I talked about, it's about understanding who your audience is and what resonates with that audience, whether you're selling a service or selling a product. I don't think it matters in my opinion. One of my most amazing managers gave me some advice, and he said, people buy from people they like. And that's resonated. Whether you're selling jeans at a retail store, through to know selling software, I think it exactly is the same thing. at the end of the day. And the transition seems a lot for many, but I think when you put your mind to it and you put, some of the basic fundamentals that we know growing up and the kind circles that we were working, I think that it's quite simple to make a transition, that seems quite different. Benny Gould:    Very good. Nice one. Keep going. Let's move on to LinkedIn. Benny Gould:    So one day, at Acendre, I got an email from LinkedIn. And strangely I used, well not strangely, I was in sales. I used LinkedIn a lot for business development. Strangely, I got an email from LinkedIn, and the recruiter was saying that the company at that point was only 800 employees, that they were building their SaaS business in the world of talent, and that he'd seen my background and that there was a nice balance between both service recruiting and understanding what it takes to recruit someone, also through to the technology and how to have a conversation about recruiting software. And so I was almost the perfect mix for them in terms of what they were looking for for what they call LinkedIn Talent Solutions. So, the role was to open up the office in Melbourne, back in 2011. At that point, they about 6 employees in total in Sydney - well there's, there's an argument between me and the second guy that joined, whether we're six or seven, call it...either way around, I say number six, he say number six. So when we have these arguments, when you have in a hypergrowth startup, and it's so early in the the chain, you do have a laugh about the number which means absolutely nother. Naber:  The conversations you have internally about tenure, I found, at software businesses, especially high growth software businesses, it's amazing. Someone will come in and be amazed by your tenure, if you've been there for a year, two years, three years, and it presents so much personal brand equity internally that someone's been there for x number of years. I've always found it fascinating how fascinated people are by tenure. And then putting that on the pedestal. I think there's gotta be a little a lot of good comedy sketches you can put on SNL about those conversations. Anyways... Benny Gould:    Exactly. Yeah. So I, got this email from LinkedIn. And I see myself, when I was back at his prior company as a bit of a Meerkat. I would look up around and I was hey, I think it's my time to go. And I was probably such a millennial at that point. So yeah, I'm, I've been here four years. I've done my tenure, which is absolutely no time at a company, for anyone. But, nevertheless I took the opportunity, which was incredible to move to LinkedIn. Brief story about day one, when I walked into this serviced office in Melbourne with my boss, at the time that hired me. And, in fact, another colleague started the same day as I did, and she and I walked in with a new boss, and it was a small two room office in the IBM tower, in Southbank in Melbourne. And this office looked it was from the 60s, like Madmen, but just without the liquor cart, and without all the people walking around. And we're like...is this really LinkedIn? Are we in the right office? Naber:  So all the bad stuff, and none of the good stuff from that particular scene. Got It. Benny Gould:    Yeah, exactly. And it was so bizarre, and anyway, so we walked in and we actually had no internet. So our boss had to take us in a cab to Costco, this is no joke, with a trolley, and load-up the trolley with a modem, a printer, a whole bunch of snacks, for our pretty miserable front room, within what would be our office. Although we did buy a mini fridge, we had some soft drinks. It was probably luxurious compared to the things I get offered in prior employment, but the Silicon Valley business that was... Naber:  Oh, the perks, the perks. Benny Gould:    Exactly. Though we did have a river view. So to be fair, we had windows. So, started there and the amazing thing was when I was given my laptop and my phone, plugging into the Internet and with that Costco Modem that we purchased, and having LinkedIn go live in Melbourne on day one, that was quite incredible. But starting off building a business for this Talent Solutions SaaS business in Melbourne, had no database of people that we'd worked with prior. It was purely the most fundamental baseline business development you can imagine. Right? In Sydney, same sort of team. There were a couple more, but they were pounding the pavement, getting out there meeting and networking with folks who had we done business with prior and and building a network of conversations in order to start selling this SaaS product that no one knew about. And so the other thing was, I guess back in 2011, the internet was very new to companies in terms of LinkedIn selling a SaaS product. They weren't used to bringing social media into organizations where social was going to be a part of how your employees and how your executives would show up. And so it was quite scary because they knew that social media was for social life. It wasn't for professional life. So we were building a business around a licensing model and building a successful hypergrowth business that, probably with selling one of the best products I've ever seen because no one had a competitive product. It was hugely impactful for an organization and it would save companies a hell of a lot of money. Naber:  So, this is a common theme. You've done this at multiple businesses, software businesses now. You were earlier stage at LinkedIn, you're a little bit later, proportionally, stage when you joined Facebook. You're coming in and positioning something that is on the, one of the polar ends of the scale of disruption - in that people are trying to think about using the same thing for a completely different purpose and using something that's personal, or in their professional-personal life or their personal life - and then using that in the business. Or said another way, they don't necessarily even know that they have the problem that you're trying to solve, let alone that the solution exists to solve it. How do you go in and sell differently when you were on that end of the polar side of this disruption spectrum? A lot of businesses are selling way before the time of the general adoption. So they're on the really early part of the curve. Benny Gould:    Yup. For sure. So I think the narrative that I was carrying into the LinkedIn role was just another chapter in the book. If you think about the recruiting chapter and then the SaaS recruiting chapter - when I go to LinkedIn, and I was sitting in front of HR managers, and they were saying, so you want me to buy this particular product off you, why should I buy it? And I would share with them, well I've spent four years working for recruiting company, charging companies yours tens of thousands of dollars to find talent. And then you're using technology in order to determine which talent is most important to you and then to prioritize of thousands of applicants, how you can determine which is important. And then still you haven't got a result on great candidates. So sitting here today and you still can't find a solution to the problem for the jobs you're trying to fill. So it was the narrative that was easily flowing, and I fairly passionate about it because that's what I believed in, right? It was my purpose. And I hate to say I like to help people find jobs, because helping people isn't really the direction...people already have the capability, the experience, the knowledge, and the purpose - it's just about unlocking that. So when I would be talking to HR leaders about purchasing the software, it was more a case of well do you want to personally have access to the best talent out there? Let me show you how you use this thing. If you think it's an interest then let's talk about it. But if not, then there's plenty of recruiting companies that will take your money. There are plenty of applicant tracking system companies that will tell you their software's better to find the right people. So at the end of the day, this is your decision. And not making a decision is a decision. Naber:  Yeah. So do you stripline like that? So striplining on any being that you say, you can do this if you want to. You don't need to do this one too. Or maybe you're not ready for this. Do you actually do that in your conversations with executives, and with buyers, and budget holders as you're having these discussions? Or are you more generalizing informally about how you had the discussion? Benny Gould:    So, I do now and I'll tell you when that changed. At that point in time, and I was probably, in that LinkedIn role, I probably wasn't as open and honest and as thoughtful. I probably was focused more on sales targets. You've got x dollars to meet before the end of the month, and you need to sell these licenses, so you would sell the licenses, right? Otherwise you wouldn't hit your target, and you wouldn't be successful, and you wouldn't have a job. So there was that pressure of the hypergrowth company, which, going into four years, I've been super fortunate it was an amazing business, going through that growth. But when I was the 6th employee through to the 356th employee, where it didn't matter what number you were, or what your tenure was, or essentially how loyal you had been to the company, to some it was really about what your number was. And I think that's fundamentally when I started to think differently and my behavior started to change. But yeah, we can you talk a bit more about sort of today my thinking. Towards the end of the LinkedIn stint, I was burning out and I was starting to see my purpose change, and that sort of shift in understanding between why you show up to work and the narrative that you're writing the book for, and the book starting to take a different direction, and when you start to lose control of the narrative. And so that happened more towards the end of 2014, and the opportunity that presented itself, at that point, was to take some time off, and to enjoy some of the time that I'd had at LinkedIn - putting some savings aside to go and travel. Benny Gould:    Awesome, so we're going to get into traveling in Yogi Ben for a minute here, in about three minutes. And I'm very excited about that because it's a really good jump in you taking advantage of an amazing enlightenment opportunity that you saw for yourself, both and your your partner, which is awesome - who's also amazing, Amanda...Quick step back, when you're thinking about...One of thene of the superpowers that I see you having, many, but one of them I see is that multiple times over you have built satellite markets and satellite offices from the ground up for businesses that have a relatively established either brand or entity, in let's call it America or their hub. So how do you think about the framework of building out that satellite market and building out those satellite offices for a hub that does have a brand in their local market at home, but doesn't necessarily - maybe especially as American businesses - doesn't necessarily understand that you don't have the same brand equity, you don't have the same product equity in the marketplace. What's the framework you think about or the principles that you think about as you want to build out those satellite markets and satellite offices? Benny Gould:    So, I'll talk about mainly the approach on mindset. Let's call it the mindset first, and then I'll talk about the practicality of that framework. Going into the job or any role - I think of taking a job - you need to align with your purpose. And I'll come back to this a bit later on when we talk about the other journey, but your purpose is how you show up, why you jump out of bed every day. You need to also understand the company that you're going to be working for and the role you're going to do and how you believe in that purpose - if you truly want to have impact. If you just want to take a job, and work nine to five, and rock up, and go home feeling accomplished, then there's plenty of jobs to do that, don't get me wrong. But if you want to have a super impactful career with a company that is there to support you and help you grow and push yourself into a direction that I focus on, is really life changing. So that alignment on purpose and values really then matters to how you build out your approach to build the market because you're the face of the brand at that point. So when I started at LinkedIn and I plugged my computer in and there's no, there's access to a CRM with no people in it. It's going back in the 70s where you would pull out a yellow pages and you would go through almost one by one and start calling people. But of course we had the network LinkedIn, and I'd been in the industry, and so you generally start hitting the phones. So the people that you use to have relationships with and networks with, you would call them and say, "Hey, I'm now on LinkedIn, and this is what we do and I need to talk to you about this amazing platform that we have. I think it'd be very much an interest. Let's grab a coffee." Now what's amazing, and super fortunate with the companies I've worked for, is that people know the brand. So you can easily get a meeting. So that's a huge advantage if you work for a smaller business that you don't have any brand equity, it's very challenging to get a meeting. The good side to that is that everyone wants to meet with you, and those that actually want to buy from you, can be very limited. So you end up spending lots of money, drinking lots of coffee, and having really nice lunches, but actually not getting much cut-through. So if you're focused on the framework, you've got the value proposition on where your product fits to market, you're focused on the purpose, and you're passionately aligned with the purpose. Then it's a case of, okay, how do you then go to market? And then how do you start to build a network and start to sell the product? And then you start to think about, okay, well who's the customer? Who's the actual buyer of the product that I'm going to be talking to? Who signs the check? Who's the key decision makers? How long does it take to sell the products? How can we speed up the sale of the products? All these things...deal velocity, and sales cycle, and conversion, how many meetings do I need to have in order to sell the product? How many proposals do I need out? These are all fundamental sales things, which you want to, as a sales person, you want to have the basics - for forecasting and all those things that are important. But once you fundamentally understand the basics, then it's a case level, and how do I influence the sale. And that comes down to you, and that comes down to your understanding, your research that you do with the customer, how you show up, how you present yourself, how you articulate yourself, all those sorts of things. Because at the end of the day, people buy from people they like. So you can read all the sales books in the world and, and believe me, I've got buddies that just don't put sells books down, and they're successful salespeople. and that's fantastic. So there's two ways, but I think fundamentally for me, at the end of the day, what I found successful in helping these satellite businesses grow from the ground up, is just getting the basics right, getting some wins on the board. The other thing is testimonials. So, very early when you win your first two or three deals in any market, whether you have zero customers or a thousand customers, get really close to those testimonials and have them tell 10 people they know in their industry to buy your product, or the reasons why, or the impact that it's had to date on their business. Because those testimonials will fundamentally help you scale your business. And the other we can talk about is channel partners, which I've more recently come to know. Naber:  On testimonials, do you feel it's more important to have them written down and documented, or do you think that just that they're out there with happy voices in the market - that's enough? Benny Gould:    Definitely note them, for sure. Anecdotal - I heard a comment, or a line here, or they said this particular thing. So anecdotal feedback we can provide in a verbal way, nothing that you couldn't put on the front of the newspaper. Of course, it doesn't have their approval. But generally speaking, people are comfortable, if they've said at a conference or over a dinner table, "What you've done for our company has been 10x valuable", then you can share that story. So those are the stories about the things that really matter. And storytelling is another incredible skill in people that I've come to learn do very well in terms of being able to sell a product or a service. Naber:  All right, let's make the jump. You're at the end of your tenure at LinkedIn. Benny Gould:    I'm on a beach, yeah. So burned out and wondering what's next, Amanda and I decided to go and take a journey overseas, starting with a yoga retreat in Nicaragua, in a tree house with no power, no Internet, and no running hot water for a month. And also becoming yoga teachers which I had no intention of whatsoever. Amanda says, "I thought it would be really cool. I thought you'd really enjoy it." Whereas I had no choice once we go to Nicaragua. Benny Gould:    What was the best part about living in a tree house in Nicaragua? And what was the worst part about living in a tree house in Nicaragua? Benny Gould:    The best part is living three feet from the ocean, jumping out of the tree house and being in the water. Worst part was not showering properly for a month, without bees and a whole bunch of other creatures. Benny Gould:    Nice. Okay. So that was the start of your journey. Keep going. Benny Gould:    Yeah. The four weeks, 200 hour teacher training, for me was not to become a yoga teacher. It was to really clear the mindset of a previous 10 years, 15 years in personal life, professional life, just to wipe the slate clean of all the different things that are blowing up in my mind and also bringing me back to the person that I probably was when I was back in working in a hotel, and and learning is an adolescent I guess. And being playful and all those sorts of things. So, yeah, kicked off the journey and then it basically became a 9-10 month journey of just knocking around the world backpacking, and just meeting amazing people, and cultures, and really being out of your comfort zone, a lot, practicing yoga along the way, which was a great opportunity to stay fit, but also to get yourself in a good mindset. We did amazing things climb Machu Picchu and the Inca Trail, as well as a whole bunch of other adventures, crazy stuff diving with the sharks in South Africa, and hiking through jungles, and all these sorts of amazing things that many of us do through a midlife crisis. Benny Gould:    Midlife excitement, midlife crisis. So let's break down some of the personal side of that. What has yoga brought for you to your business world? You're building sales and marketing engines, your sales mentality. What has it brought to work for you that has given back to you the most? Benny Gould:    Yeah. The Yoga Journey teaches you a lot about your internal voice, what I refer to as the way that you internally interpret yourself. And it unlocks that within you to then have an impact on your external self. So, we did philosophy for yoga. I didn't pay that much attention to it. So those that are listening are probably like that's the worst explanation Ben could probably give after 200 hours of teaching. That's how I would articulate that. The practice, the physical practice itself, gives you no other choice than to focus on present moment. And that present moment is incredibly important in personal life and professional life. But, when you then sit around a table for the next four weeks with people where there's no internet, you have genuine conversations and you get to meet people in ways that you get to understand who they are and the relationships that they've been through. And everyone at the table had been through some sort of traumatic experience. Whether it was a personal or professional thing or they were about to go through a big life changing moment. So it was quite interesting that everyone took this amazing journey to go and get out of their comfort zone to learn something completely new, in which, definitely changed the personal direction for me in the way that I thought about business afterwards. So what I shifted from in the last four prior years was this real business mindset around sort of numbers, And performance, and success. Opposed to what's important to you? What are your goals? How are you achieving them in your life? I think that that's the shit that that particular 12 months taught me. Benny Gould:    Awesome. So, one more thing on taking this journey. Because I think there's a lot of nose to the grindstone, hardworking, extremely savvy, elite sales and marketing leaders or future sales and marketing leaders that are on the grind right now trying to get to that next step, next two steps, next three steps in their career. Always telling themselves - it's a deferred happiness or a deferred mindset mentality - I'll be happy later when I can be. What would you say to them about what it's to take that break, have that mindset reset, and how that's helped you become even better than when you were before you took that mindset break? Because there's so many talented people that want to do that, but they do not. You have done that. What would you say that gives you when you come back, what's the reset like? Benny Gould:    So the reset - one thing that I learned out of the year off was vulnerability. So vulnerability is something in which people see in business as a weakness. The truth is, I see it completely the opposite, as a strength. When in business your told to sell a certain way, to be in business in a certain way, to show up in a way that in many ways is actually an authentic, and to present a mask of who you are isn't necessarily showing your true self. And so what the year out with the Yoga really started to teach me is to unlock that vulnerability. And the vulnerability when you come out of that, looking back into business, is then focused on actually authenticity, connection, mindset, love, compassion. So those sorts of things then play into - "Well, okay, this is an interesting direction. Now I've opened myself up to be more transparent. What actually do I want?" And so the second thing that we learned from our trip is Amanda and I were sitting somewhere on a beach, around seven or eight months into the trip - so towards the back third. And we were sitting on a beach somewhere, and I said to Amanda randomly, "Hey, what are the five things, three to five things that you're passionate about in life? That you could jump out of bed for and, and go and do a yoga class? Or you could go to work and do this job? What are the five things? She told me her five things and I shared my five things. And so we argued about you copied my five things, and you wouldn't have had those unless I said them. But we had our own five things. So specifically out of that, they all resonated from when I was a kid all the way through to where I was today. We both said to ourselves that we'd make this commitment that of these five things, professionally where we'd go and take the next job that would encompass one of those five things. Because we've just made this commitment to ourselves that you would jump out of bed and do this job without any problem. And yes, you have your good days and your bad days, and all that sort of stuff. But fundamentally, if you agree on this purpose, and this passion around what's most important to me, the individual, then that's going to be a commitment, and that's going to be something that is going to be easy for me to do, and something that I'll have no problem doing. So, the next step, and I'm not sure if you're ready to get into the Bondi Yoga House. But, what the next step for us was getting back to Sydney, and after we'd done this yoga journey, we wanted to take a punt into a startup. And so that was on one of my five things was, in my life I want to launch a startup. Going into all the odds that you hear about - nine out of 10 aren't successful, etc - we thought, well, let's give it a chance. We've been out of our comfort zone. Well, let's continue to go on that journey. So we launched a business called Bondi Yoga House, and we had no business plan. We had no financial plan, but it was bootstraped and it was mad, Crazy now that I look back on it. There were plenty of lessons, which is another way to say what stupid decision. But no, it wasn't, it was one of the best life decisions we've had. But we launched a business, which was essentially a boutique hotel in Bondi Beach. And what we wanted to do is recreate what we call an urban retreat, which is instead of going to Ubud in Bali, or in Mexico, or Costa Rica for a yoga retreat, you could go to what feels a yoga retreat in a city, but close enough to the great things that the city could offer. So you could still feel you're in Bali, but you could go and visit the Opera House, and you can visit Bondi Beach, and all those sorts of things. So we recreated this interesting concept of Urban Retreat, and it was a five bedroom house. And, we went and bought a whole bunch of really awesome furniture and really yogi stuff to fill out what was a studio of about 12 mats, which we didn't teach any local Yoga. It was mainly for particular events or for people that are staying. And we built a program over 12 months of people coming for these packages, and people coming to meet one another from around the world. Naber:  You must have met some really interesting people. Benny Gould:    Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, really interesting people. Different people around the world - one weekend to a girl getting married and hosting her fellow bridesmaids and her mom, and all these amazing different types of life experiences, to then hosting the community. One of the things that wasn't out on our radar but ended up becoming fundamentally the DNA of what Bondi Yoga House was all about, was the community that we bought into the space. So we found that there were a lot of people, entrepreneurs in the local Bondi Beach area, that wanted a space to be able to showcase their talent. And so for some it was a Reiki Master, for others it was Lunar Nights, where one lady would come in and talk about the particular moon - Lunar Nights. And it would be part meditation, part storytelling, in a really amazing inclusive experience. And so, we were just amazed by the fact that people wanting to come into our particular property and run these events. And so we were running them at no cost. We would literally lose on these events. But that wasn't the point of the business. And by this point we realized this was a more of a short term pop up, than it was really a long term real estate investment or, or a brand that we were looking at building. Just after buying multiple domains, London Yoga House, and LA Yoga House, and I probably need to get a refund on those at some point. Ambition and ideas had always outweighed my ability to probably execute completely, when it came to this concept of a startup. But the key learning out of this was, we didn't have the experience in running financial plans, in PR, or marketing. But, we did manage to be featured on CNBC Global Documentary, that featured 180 countries, alongside a seven star resort. The Virgin Australia magazine on in flight entertainment. All of these amazing publications ended up picking up this unique brand, so we knew we were onto something. But we realized that we were probably popping the idea too early. And I think that sometimes some of the best startup ideas, you're either really, really early or really, really late and, those that are right in the middle of are those that are probably relatively successful. But since then, it's actually become quite an interesting phenomenon. And there's many, many businesses that I've seen globally since we've launched that business, that have gone on to do much bigger and better things in that way. But, for whatever it's worth, we were that that small piece of the puzzle that, curated, hopefully an idea that we think is something that's valuable and worth sharing, and also had an impact to people in the community, which is the biggest takeaway for that business. Naber:  Love it. Very, very cool. All right. So, let's hop into that jump to Facebook. How did that decision work? And let's go through what you're up to. Benny Gould:    Yeah, so going out there looking for jobs - I talked about the five things that were important - those five things also focused on a few different aspects. So for me it was tech, that there was music, community was one of those, and a couple of others I've shared. So for me it had to be a tech company. My dad had been involved in music industry, so that was something of interest, and I DJ'd , through the late parts of my teens, early twenties - failed DJ by the way, in many ways. DJ Swift is somewhat retired. But we can get to that story another time... Naber:  What was the DJ name again? Benny Gould:    DJ Swift. I had a Suzuki Swift as my first car, for lack of a better DJ name, and then there was DJ Suzuki from Japan that was incredibly successful, and I couldn't steal his name. So I went with DJ Swift. Naber:  I don't know if there's a better or worse story out there about picking a DJ name then your first car's name. Benny Gould:    And it's not a great car, let's be honest. The range of Swift's, they haven't changed much in 20 something years. But yes, the short lived DJ career. So music was important. But then looking for a job, specifically having been a recruiter, I think backwards a little bit. So I would then focus on, okay, what are the companies that represent these five things that I focused on, and let's target 20 companies. And then I would reach out to the 20 companies, if they didn't have live jobs, and then I would reach out, introduce myself, and then start to hustle to get a conversation. Now I thought I would be relatively comfortable in doing that with the approach, but then I looked back on the last three years, I left LinkedIn pretty much three years to the day. So I've been doing the startup for three years and travel with the yoga journey. And then I'd realize, well no recruiter really wants to speak to me because I basically been schlepping it for three days with a backpack. Living with no shoes on. So they were probably wondering why in my professional experience? Naber:  Well, luckily Facebook and several of the businesses were smart enough to have that conversation. Benny Gould:    Yeah, so Facebook advertised a job, this job based in Sydney, called a Growth Manager for Workplace by Facebook, which is a product that they've built from within their company about companies better connecting internally with employees. And so it was a way to build a more connected company bottom up, and top down. And so I had applied for this job a couple of times, and the reason I applied for it was because I truly believed in the purpose and believe in the purpose. And the purpose was that they fundamentally want to change the way that employees can share their voice. Because companies, many companies have today still have traditional means of communication, and it's still very controlled in the way that employees can share their thoughts. And I think from the journey that I've been on, I've seen it so many other people have great stories to tell. And so if there was potentially a way that culturally we can shift the mindset to allow people bottom up to share their voice, and create ideation, and to be doing that at scale, and for executives in their companies to hear the amazing ideas and their contribution and their recognition, that would be something magical. And so that was what I'd read pretty much in the job description. I was like this is amazing. This is something I need to be a part of. The fact of building it is something else. So I applied three times. The first two times I didn't get an application response other than thanks, but you're not of interest, after four weeks. The third time, through my network, a guy that I used to work with at LinkedIn, was close buddies with someone that worked at Facebook, and so he referred me as, "Hey, I think you should chat to this guy. He's got this amazing journey, I think is be quite a fit. And then within 10 days, I had a few interviews and managed to land a role. And so yes, hugely thankful, for landing the opportunity at that point. And so for the past 18 months I've been focused on, on exactly the Workplace business. And so helping companies realize and, educate actually in many ways, that the importance of sharing your voice as an employee is important. And going back to the examples and anecdotes that other companies that adopted the platform, would share, it would blow your mind in the fact that - a particular supermarket in New Zealand uses the platform, and they've been using it for some time, but they've got stories about a lady in her sixties, actually saved somebody's life by running across from the supermarket to the gym across the street and this guy and having having a heart attack. And she was able to, based on first aid experience, able to put him in a good enough state until the ambulance arrived. Then shared that particular story on the platform, which then other people in the company we're sharing similar stories about how it's impacted their life, how it's been such a supportive network for people that have lost in their family, and it just opened up this can of worms, in a positive way, for people within the business to create commonality and connection amongst one another. That was something that I thought was, wow, this is fundamentally, phenomenally changing the way people work, and actually show up to work in a positive way. So, that's been sort of an incredible journey. And then, as you know, I've recently moved from Sydney to London in a different role. Naber:  Yeah. Very, very solid, abrupt quick summary that I'm going to have you expand on a second there, to end that. So this is a good pause point. When you're, when you're talking to businesses in your first role at Facebook and your last role as a Global Account Manager at LinkedIn, these businesses you're talking to are global, massive businesses. One of your other super powers that I think a lot of people - first of all, so many people love Ben Gould. There a seven degrees, you know seven degrees of Kevin Bacon, seven degrees of people who love Ben Gold. You can find someone, that can find someone, that can find someone, like tons of people just love you. But one of those groups of people that just love you is your customers, and not just people that have managed you, and not just people that have worked with - your customers love you, adore you. I'm going to guess that's part of this answer, but one of the super powers you have is doing global deal orchestration and decentralize deal orchestration, and working with companies that are very, very big on either local budgets or global budgets and orchestrating the entire thing. Do you have a mindset or a method that you use, or go about, in order to orchestrate and put together these amazingly successful, global deals? And is customers absolutely loving you, part of the ground up of you doing them? Benny Gould:    Thanks very much for the compliment. I also send that $50 later. I appreciate it, very kind of you. So I think that, in terms of the complexity in the way of selling, I think that you can't do it alone, first of all. So it's not down to me, it's down to the team. Down to the people that you work with, and also really just navigating the relationship and navigating the complexity in which people buy, the way people purchase. So in terms of these global companies, for others that are working in similar complex environments, there's so many stakeholders that get involved in deals. You never really have one central buyer, at least my experience, I've not had one central by that's has the wallet and they're able to just pay you for that product there and then. There is other influences when goes into any deal. So whether it's a huge, large multinational - it's procurement, it's the actual CIO, it's the CEO in many instances depending on your product. So from my experience, maybe the lack of a super power, but maybe the skill that I've tried to refine is, is just networking. Just the ability to build a relationship with people in your business and externally in the client business to better understand how to navigate your path through this sort of crazy, maze in many ways. So those relationships really matter because then you can start to, and naturally and authentically those relationships matter, because then once you start building that relationship, then you can help each other grow. Whether that's empowering somebody to be a champion to help them be promoted, or to help them gain a skillset. So one of the most important things that I've really focused on is how is this going to impact their career? Because that's important to them in many ways. Or how is it going to impact them personally? Maybe they've learned something out of it. That sometimes is more than enough. So provided that you can empower others to be their best selves and to show up as best they can, then I think we're all in it to win together. And then if there's not a commonality in that, then going back to the vulnerability example, there's a problem in the connection. There's the mask that someone's wearing, all this stress, or the pressure, or the anxiety that is overwhelming who they really are. So I think the better conversation to have sometimes, is just getting to know them better. The best leaders that I've ever had, have been those that talk less about the day to day more often, and more about the non work day to day. Because the closer relationship you can have with that leader, and they really understand you as a person, you are more than happy to show up and jump out of bed every single day to fight for their team. So I think that's one of the main key things. And I think going back to your point around navigating these complex businesses and multinational companies, the same applies. When I today meet with executive of some huge global companies, they are humans too. And quite frankly, they don't get treated humans, they get traded as big egotistical CEOs. Some of them are, don't get me wrong. but arguably at the end of the day they are humans too. And so it's just finding a commonality and a connection with them that you can appreciate where they're coming from. Benny Gould:    Nice one. Okay. That's a good segue into what you're doing now. And the global program, it's fascinating, that you're running right now and getting into. Why don't you give a bit of a summary of the program that you're running right now, and then I'll get into a couple things that I think people would want to ask you about this. Benny Gould:    Yeah, for sure. So really fortunate to be offered an opportunity to lead at Facebook globally, what we call Facebook for Business Influencers. So it's a program that was launched about four years ago, from an idea that Sheryl Sandberg, presented in terms of the same way that we would represent and manage partners - like athletes, celebrities, musicians - we also have a desire to support business leaders that want to be able to share their voice and share their story at scale. So for the last four years we've been running this program and launched over 400+ business leaders - like Richard Branson, Arianna Huffington Bill Gates, Sara Blakely, others as well Naber:  Small names, small names. Benny Gould:    Ha, yeah, some relatively small names, right?...with some of the amazing talent that the program support. So fundamentally, what the program's about is, is coaching these executives on really what social is. Because many of them use social media in their personal life, probably to connect with children, or grandchildren, or friends, but they're not so familiar with how they solve this in business. And so it goes back to the LinkedIn example, years ago, when I was talking about LinkedIn, when I brought it to companies, they weren't used to how social media would impact their business. It's kind of similar, but this is more from a Facebook and an Instagram perspective. So, today I look after a range of Global CEOs and coach them on why they should have a social profile, and the meaning behind and then the purpose behind connected leaders. And so when you look at some of the research, recently, Brunswick Group over here in Europe, brought out some research that two in one employees want to see their CEO on social media. And more than half of them actually use social media to research whether they want to work for a company. When you think about the demographic of the types of people that are joining their company, they're millennials mainly. The first time in history that we have five generations of people in the workforce. And so there's a different mindset to the way that we perceive information and the way that we see relevance in information. So there's different channels in which we are able to articulate that. So there's traditional media, there's of course professional media, and then there's social media. And so the benefit that we have with social media is, particularly with Facebook and Instagram, we have billions of people who are using our products every day. And so executive leaders either have two types of personalities - they have a very shy personality and not used to being a voice of their company, they're used to the PR engine or the communications engine and the teams that would support them in getting that message out; And then we have executives or startup founders that are the voice of their brand and that are passionate about leading change for their business, societal change, and having a real dent in the world. And so many of those leaders today, if you look at Jeff Weiner from LinkedIn, he does a fantastic job with that. Mark Zuckerberg does a fantastic job, of course, at Facebook. And then you've got other startup executives, Sara Blakely for example, from Spanx. Amazing founders that are so devil in the detail in of the importance of growing a business and want to go out there and have a huge impact on the world. And so that is more than just running a company, that is more about being able to empower other business leaders or, or women in tech is another example. And so the role that I'm doing is expanding on that, not only just to support their external presence, but also to coach them on their internal presence. And so when we're showing up with Workplace in some of the greatest companies in the world like Walmart, and Starbucks, and Virgin Atlantic, and National Australia Bank, and many others to name a few, use the internal platform to communicate and have a better connected company, but the executives also don't know what best practice looks in order to have an internal brand. So coaching them on what an internal brand looks at scale and giving them the framework around how to do that effectively. Naber:  Really interesting. Really interesting. It's just sounds like...I'm going to guess that it was a relatively smooth transition for you talking about this particular product and coaching and supporting executives to solve one of the internal challenges, as it was when you were selling to them in general, other products, or not even similar products, but just selling to power and selling to executives. Do you feel like...What is similarity between having those conversations you're having right now with executives at some of the best and biggest companies in the world, and the way that you should sell the power and sell to executives in the way that you structure those conversations? Benny Gould:    Yeah, definitely. So again, putting yourself in their shoes, that they're running a big company, they are busy, that they have no time for anything else. All those things are completely understandable given the roles that they do. So firstly you've got to understand in a very short amount of time what the business priorities are. Now you would have done your research and understand how to tackle that question, but from a framework perspective, understanding the business priorities and what's important. Then what's going to maximize their business value, but then also understand their personal impact. What is the contribution or the legacy that you wish to have on the company. And so we can understand that. Naber:  Are you asking that question explicitly or you navigating through and ask a couple of questions to get there? Benny Gould:    Sometimes. It would depend on who the person is. If they're a leader of a Fortune 500 company, some may be offended with the approach of the legacy you wish to live in the company. Some people you need to frame your questions with in the right way, for them the business priorities may be so important to them that their personal viewpoint is less important. Or their personal path is less important. So it depends on who you're talking to. But yeah, once you understand the what's in it for them or why should they be interested, is more the question, then we need to align on, well, if these are the true business priorities and important aspects that you're looking to elevate and to scale, then here's how I can help you. This is why you should be interested. And you've gotta be really clear on exactly what that value proposition is, so you're not wasting that time. And then for those that you're having to I guess, educate and influence. That's the approach I take. Others that are probably over enthusiastic with, more interested in learning the how, it's the opposite in me understanding why do they want to show up on social, what I refer to as their social purpose statement. So what is your social purpose statement or your purpose that you wish to articulate as to why this is important? Because having x amount of followers isn't necessarily, as an executive of running a business, the most important goal that you should have. It's aligning on the most important goals that you should align to and the objectives to reach them. And the objectives to reach them are focused on some of the key themes. So objectives could be, I generally break it into three, three themes. So company, self and world. So how would you articulate your storytelling when it comes to your company and what are the key things that are important? With self, how do you want to articulate what's important to you? Is it family time? Is it the books you're reading, or the podcast you're listening to? And then impact on the world - so is it sustainability or social impact? One in five millennials, won't stay at a company for more than two years, unless I have a social purpose. So unles

Guest: Robby Allen - Former Head of Sales @Mixmax (Founder @Buena Vista Ventures; Formerly @Flexport, @Zenefits) Guest Background: Robby was born and raised in San Francisco and knew from a young age that he wanted to build and scale companies. At Zenefits he took the outbound SDR team from 0-250+ reps. At Flexport he built a global outbound team across 3 continents. After that Robby was the head of sales at Mixmax, taking the team from a self-serve business to a B2B sales model. Currently, Robby runs his own consulting practice: Buena Vista Ventures. Buena Vista focuses on emerging technology companies, mainly SaaS businesses, looking to build and scale high performing and efficient sales organizations. Outside of the office, you can find Robby playing basketball or hiking to the top of a peak. Guest Links: LinkedIn Episode Summary: In this episode, we cover: - Scaling SaaS Sales Functions Across Multiple Growth Phases - Hiring & Onboarding Sales Teams at Massive Scale - Building Sales Development Engines - Sales Compensation Plans Full Interview Transcript: Naber:  Hello friends around the world. My name is Brandon Naber. Welcome to the Naberhood, where we have switched on, fun discussions with some of the most brilliant, successful, experienced, talented and highly skilled Sales and Marketing minds on the planet, from the world's fastest-growing companies. Enjoy! Naber:  Hey everybody. We have Robby Allen on the show today. Robby was born and raised in San Francisco and knew from a young age that he wanted to build and scale companies. At Zenefits, which had a $4.5 billion evaluation on $584 million capital raised, Robby took the outbound SDR team from 0 to 250+ reps. Then at Flexport, which had a $3.2 billion valuation on $1.3 billion raised, Robby built a global outbound team across three continents. After that, Robby was the Head of Sales at Mixmax. Mixmax has raised $13 million, and he took that team from a self serve business to a B2B sales model. Currently, Robby runs his own consulting practice, Buena Vista Ventures, Buena Vista focuses on emerging technology companies, mainly SaaS businesses looking to build and scale high performing and efficient sales organizations. Outside the office you can find Robby playing basketball or hiking to the top of a peak. Here we go. Naber:  Robby! Awesome to have you on the show today. How are you my man? Robby Allen:     I'm good. I'm good, Thanks for having me, Brandon. It's good to be here. Naber:  Good. Fresh off your recent trip to Europe. You're in a feel good mood. You've got good energy. I'm loving it. You and I have known each other for awhile, and I'm really happy and proud to be chatting with you today. I think there's a lot that the audience can learn from you. What I think we'll do, if it's okay with you, is we'll go into some personal stuff first - let the audience get to know you a little bit better. We'll go into a few different things around your basketball career. I want to talk about some of the things that you did growing up, get an idea for some of your interests, all the way from Robby as a kid and what you were interested in and what you were like, all the way through to the end of the end of school in Eugene. So, if you're okay with it, could you give us maybe five, seven minutes, and it will probably last a little bit longer than that because I'll ask questions, hopefully not too rudely, to explain a few things. But could you give us a few minutes on what Robby was like as a kid and what it was like being Robby Allen as a child growing up? Robby Allen:     Yeah, sure. And to start, I'm super excited to be here. Super excited you're doing this. and can't wait to see the first handful of these episodes released into the wild. I think, given your network and the people you know it's going to be fun. But yeah, a little on me. So I was born and raised in San Francisco. People tell me that's something unique that live here, because so many people scratch, and claw, and work hard to move to San Francisco because, in the world of tech, it's considered to be the land of opportunity. I was fortunate in some ways to grow up right in the middle of it. And I knew at a really young age that I wanted to build and scale companies. It was just something where when I was five years old, I used to tell my mom that I wanted to put a suit on and can go downtown to work. Obviously the suit thing has changed, people don't wear suits anymore in San Francisco, unless you're in finance or something like that. But from a young age, I've been very interested in this notion of building things from scratch, building wealth, building value for markets and that sort of thing... Naber:  Hey, can we pause on that just for a minute. Did you ever, did you have any businesses or ways of making money growing up? Well, actually there's a really good question that someone asked me the other day, and I want to pay it forward to the audience, and get your thoughts. What was your first way of making money? Robby Allen:     Yeah, that's a good question. So I used to hustle Pokemon cards, if you remember what those are. I had a little business that in elementary school - and for folks that don't know, Pokemon was a Japanese trading card game that got really popular in Japan, and then overtook my generation, I guess - and I went to a Japanese bilingual school in San Francisco called Clarendon. So everybody there was first generation Japanese where their parents immigrated from Japan, and I happened to grow up right around the corner from there. So I went to school there. And so there was a lot of popularity around that and I saw an opportunity, I think, that was one example. I got into sneakers, when I started to really get into basketball. And so I started to buy and trade sneakers that were,popular. I would buy them when they were released for a cheaper price and sell them for a little bit more. It didn't make a lot of money, but it was something where I was able to get good at it, so to speak. Those were, I guess those were a couple things. I think that eventually scaled up until I landed in the world of sales where I think I really enjoyed that because it was something where I could control my own destiny, so to speak. Naber:  Nice. Those are good examples. Wow. I mean...the purpose of the question, that comes from an executive that a at a company that I used to work at, but his take is that he believes that work ethic starts at a very young age and entrepreneurial spirit starts at a very young age. And that that is one of the hardest to teach in your twenties and thirties. And he feels that people don't necessarily develop that in their twenties and thirties. They actually develop it as at a really young age. So that was that's he purpose of asking that question. But you have some pretty kick ass examples. That's great. Quick insert here, what is your favorite sneaker you've ever traded for? Robby Allen:     Oh, man. Yeah, so I think it's kind of a random one that most people won't know, but it's the story here, it's a pair of Air Flight 89's and my younger brother and our mutual best friend, who grew up around the corner from us in the Haight-Ashbury in San Francisco. When I was really young, we'd sell lemonade on the corner on hot days in San Francisco, and we would play up the fact that my mom grew lemons in the backyard, but mostly it was just the concentrated lemonade that you'd get from Safeway. And so we'd sell this. And then I remember I'm, the listeners won't know this, but I'm very tall. And so at a young age I became really big, and the whole cute factor of selling lemonade certainly drifted away from me, and I was no longer necessarily somebody who was an obvious candidate to sell lemonade. So I, naturally the opportunity still being there, I recruited my younger brother and our buddy Ian. A I sort of operated in the background, refilling and getting them out there. And we made enough money one Saturday afternoon, a sunny afternoon in the fall in San Francisco, where we could all go to a sneaker store on Haight Street and buy a pair of Air Flight 89's. And so I guess you could say that was a trade of labor and lemonade for sneakers. But, I'll never forget that pair because all three of us walked out of the store with the same shoes. Naber:  That's a great story. Two things. One, what did you say something and lemonade? You said something and lemonade. Naber:  Labor and lemonade. Naber:  Labor and lemonade would be the title of your first book. Second of all, everyone of us mere mortals at six foot and under always wonders what it's to be tall. And, people always think of the upside, pun intended. But some of the downside could be you could retire from lemonade sales very early in your career. Which is, that could be a sad story. But it's a good story for you. Naber:  I had to let that drift away, yeah. Naber:  That's right, you're good. So let's talk about high school for a second. So you went to St I's College Prep in San Francisco, is that right? And played basketball? Robby Allen:     Yep. Saint Ignatius, that's where I really got into sports. And yeah, I played basketball and did high jump at SI. Naber:  Cool. What position do you play in Basketball? Robby Allen:     I was I played power forward. I was pretty new to it...I started playing basketball really in high school. I was a baseball player before that, but an injury prevented me from continuing that path. So, I was tall and I could jump and I was pretty quick. So I started to pick up basketball, and they stuck me in at power forward, and I didn't really have a ton of skill per se. I was just springy and my batteries we're always charged. So I did that for four years, and then I went to college up at Oregon, at University of Oregon. And I decided not to follow the basketball path, but after about a year, sort of missed it. Missed the organized sports, missed the competition, and was one of those guys in college who you could basically see me at the rec center seven days a week playing pickup basketball. So I actually ended up finding a local junior college called Lane Community College. I met the coach and I got to know him, and he gave me a full scholarship, and I ended up going and playing two years of basketball at a little junior college in town. I was still going to University of Oregon, and I went to the business school and took a full load of credits there. And then unbeknownst to most people I knew, I was also taking the bus on the other side of town and taking a full load of credits at Community College just to play basketball. And it ended up being this really fun thing because community college, most people, you and I work with and know didn't spend any time in community college, and this is a little secret I have. And it ended up being amazing thing for me. You get to meet, you meet a lot of people that are decades older than you, and they're just now getting to getting around to going to school to maybe get an associate's degree or something that, to up level a little bit. And so it was humbling in the sense that I, I really grew to appreciate what I had, at the University that I was going to across town, and I got to get my two years of basketball in at that level, and that was all I needed, and went back to U of O and finished up my degree. Naber:  Awesome man. Wow. Very cool. I love that you went after your passion, with a credits at this school, basketball at the school vengeance - missing your craft. One more thing, I think you've done some coaching in your, day as well while we're on the basketball. And when I say the basketball, I mean while you're on your basketball career? I got used to saying the basketball, or the football, or the baseball when I was in Australia. So sometimes I put the in front of a sport arbitrarily. Anyways, while we're on your basketball career. So let's talk about some of the coaching you did as well. What does your coaching career consist of? Robby Allen:     Yeah, so, after hanging it up so to speak, from a couple of years playing in college, I...one of my assistant coaches from my college team, actually took an off season job as the head coach of a local high school team for Mohawk High. It's about 45 minutes outside of Eugene, Oregon. And, to give you an idea, I mean this is high school, probably had 200 students and at the...and I come from a school where there were probably 65 kids who tried out for the varsity basketball team every year, and only about 10 or so made it, it was a big thing...Seven kids showed up to the tryouts, so all seven kids made it. And this is ranging ranging from kids who had played basketball to had never played in their life. So this is a very different challenge. I think the team had finished in last place out of 10 people for the last 10 or so years. And so myself, and I recruited another buddy who played on the team with me to come be an assistant coach for the team, and it was more than a challenge. Because you know, we did not have any real semblance of talent on this team. But you got to know this group of kids, and we would take a yellow school bus two hours north and south of Eugene twice a week to go play games. And in some of these towns that I probably never would have otherwise set foot in my life. And I actually remember, at halftime, there was a game in, I can't even remember the name of the city, it was a western Oregon town. There was a hoedown at halftime, where about 30 people came out in cowboy boots and did a cowboy hoedown. And they had a live auction, or so they had a live raffle. And so they drew a raffle prize. There's dust and hay now all over the court, these kids have to come out and play the second half still. And they draw a number and someone in the crowd wins, and they're going crazy, and we don't know what the prize is. And they walk like 1500 pound pig basically, from the locker room. And they auctioned off a full grown male pig and somebody took home the pig...just to give you an idea of the spirit of some of these games. But that was was a learning experience for sure. But, the end of the story is we ended up finishing in second place in the league, which was the best they'd ever done. And, while it wasn't necessarily the team I would have picked or recruited myself because, frankly, we had we had to take a...there wasn't enough interest in the school. I started to really figure out that coaching was something I was passionate about, and that was a takeaway I brought with me. And still to this day, it's a guiding thing for me in terms of looking for opportunities to coach. Because even when you're making a small difference in a group of kids that are never going to play basketball at a high level, you can still have an impact on their life in a positive way. So that was a fun experience. Naber:  Cool man. We're going to cover that in a little bit, a little bit more on coaching from a professional context. That's a great story. So that, that brings us to post-Eugene. You get out of sphere-O'Ducks in Eugene, and your first role after school is what? Robby Allen:     Yeah, so I'm actually at the time working for a craft beer company that was based in Eugene - a company called Ninkasi Brewing Company. Their CEO was a former Wall Street guy who came back to Eugene and built this really, really successful fast-growing craft beer company. And I was able to finagle a job at that company, which as you can imagine, was a really fun job to have in college, and it made me very popular, especially during the summertime. And part of me thought I wanted to pursue that post college, but the more I dug into it, it just wasn't, it was more of something that...I like the idea of building this business, but it wasn't necessarily the industry I wanted to work in. So I had some people that I was close with giving me the advice that, starting a career in sales would be a good place to start. And I ended up taking a job at this company called People Matter, which was an HR technology company. And frankly didn't really know a lot about the business, didn't really have a great why for why I picked it other than it was the first door when it was an opportunity that opened up to me. The role was just a straight up outbound SDR role., the first outbound SDR the company had ever hired, reporting directly to the VP of sales. Little to no training, threw you out into the wild. And I flailed a little bit for, for probably about a month until really starting to get the hang of it. And I think the thing that I liked about it was the challenge of being able to basically directly challenge and try to add value to people that were often 20 years my senior, and help book meetings and that sort of thing. And I did really well at it against all odds. It wasn't something where I was necessarily set up for a ton of success, and that was something that I remembered and brought with me in future roles where I was the one responsible for hiring and training folks in that role...and that office was a satellite office for a company based in South Carolina, and I'm remember I was on a camping trip with my wife, girlfriend at the time, and I came back and I turned my phone on and somebody, I had 15 will voice messages and all my colleagues told me, hey, they shut the office down. I was as Oh my God. So, they closed the office down. It was something that I think I just didn't have enough business aptitude or savvy to see something that coming, per se. I was just focused on my own success, but it ended up being a blessing in disguise. I got introduced to a company called Zenefits, where a friend of mine worked. I had been a successful AE for nine months and like any successfully AE of nine months was convinced I should be an AE, but decided to take a step back to take a step forward. So I actually came in as an SDR at Zenefits. And I was an early employee there, and it was an amazing atmosphere. I mean, it was the kind of place where the phones were ringing all day, and there weren't enough sales people to take the number of demos that we were setting and the deals we were closing. And, so I came in there and it was the start of a really, really interesting journey. And I, I went from the top performing rep to becoming a manager, and building out this outbound team. They were sort of an all inbound shop before that. I built out a team of about 20 SDRs in San Francisco, hired a manager and placed them there. And the CEO, Parker, approached me and asked me, "hey, do you want to move out to Arizona and build this at 10x the scale." And I remember telling him no at first. I was like I'm a San Francisco kid, my girlfriend's here, all my friends and family are here. And I remember he told me this thing that always stuck with me. He said, "Robby, once or twice in your career, if you're lucky, a big, maverick tidal wave will come up behind you. And it's your decision if you want to grab a surfboard and jump in and try to ride it or not. And when a CEO tells you something that, it's kind of hard not to get fired up...So about two weeks later I was on a flight to Phoenix, and was moving out there. And over the course of the next two and a half years I built, and this is always kind of wild to say out loud, I'd built and scaled out at an SDR team of about 250. So we were hiring 30 SDRs every month, and really going from product market fit to repeatability to full-on hypergrowth, in this really condensed time period. And there are a ton of learnings and I'm sure some things that we'll be able to unpack along that journey. And it was a big growth experience for me. I was 25 years old, in a room full of 200 people that I'd hired in this whole organization we'd built out. And so learning just how to grow, with this growing business, personally. And how to uplevel my skills, and understand what the things were that I could do to add value at the certain different stages we went through. I was an amazing experience. So we went on a journey from a zero to $70 million in ARR over those three years. Which was a lot, and an amazing journey. And when that journey concluded, I had done everything I've set out to do at Zenefits and wanted to move back to the Bay Area. And so I came back to SF and actually got introduced to a company called Flexport. My old, my former former boss... Naber:  Let's pause for a second because I want to keep your head space in the Zenefits zone for a minute because we'll hop into Flexport and a little bit. But there's just so much to unpack with Zenefits that while your head's on the space, I'd to keep it there for a few minutes. For those that are listening, you heard the amount of scale both from a hiring, bookings, and revenue perspective, and just an operational scale - just unbelievable. Somewhat unheard of hypergrowth scale you guys are operating at, and you being the spearhead of a lot of that operational execution for hiring to make sure that you're building pipeline and building the pipe for the sales team at scale. All the way through to making sure you have a pool of talent and a bench of talent to mobilize within the organization. All of that is obviously vitally important to the massive scale and results that you guys had. So let's pause on that for a minute. So first of all, let's talk about hiring teams. There's a lot of people that are going through either their version of hyper growth, or what would fit everyone's definition of hyper growth. Whether they're hiring a significant number of people in their head, or in reality they're hiring a lot of humans to do a various number of roles. So let's talk about that. So when you think about recruiting at massive scale, what are a couple of the fundamentals that people need to keep in mind and remember, or get right, that you think about as a framework for how you scaled that much growth for hiring? Robby Allen:     Yeah, a great question. And I think, with the benefit of hindsight, I can probably speak a little bit more intelligently to it, then I could at the time. Naber:  To all of our benefit actually, to all of our benefit. Robby Allen:     Yeah. So I think the first thing that's just so important that you hear time and time again, but I think that there is no amount of time that you can spend that is too much, is getting your foundational team - your founding team, you're first team - right. And in in my case, I had the benefit of building out a team in San Francisco, and was able to sort of, get a couple - two of the top reps, my friends Alex Snatch and Andrew Case, both of whom became very close friends, and were at my wedding. and to this day are still very close friends - top reps in San Francisco and were able to get them to move about the Arizona with me. And so having that institutional knowledge there on the ground made such a big difference because there's already this dynamic of what excellence looks for every new hire that comes in. And I think that that's really important, And I think that for folks that are, that are starting a new role or coming into a new environment, if you're in a sales leadership position, whether you're an SDR manager, or VP of sales, or a VP of marketing, or whatever the case may be, you should probably already know who the first two or three people that you're going to recruit and hire into the organization are going to be. And the reason for that is because you can create an environment that you've got a little bit more control over, and create a culture that you're comfortable with and familiar with and that you can help integrate your new people into. Because once you start to add new folk onto the team, if you don't already have that foundational culture in place, you can't go back in time and rebuild it. And that can be a recipe for disaster. And so I was very fortunate to have benefited from that without necessarily prioritizing it. But it's something that I've learned now over the years that you, you can't really spend enough enough time in the beginning recruiting and focusing on who is going to be my founding go to market team. Naber:  Yup. Yup. That makes sense. And then, let's talk about operationalization of that hiring as well. So your founding team, you need to get both the culture as well as that group right - the first few people on your team. Then we need to get into the actual operations of hiring that many people. Can you give us an understanding of...if you think about it this way - from the top of the funnel to the bottom of the funnel, or from one part of the operational execution to the other - what are some of the best practices from a recruitment perspective that you need to nail when you're hiring at scale? Robby Allen:     Yeah, so I think it's a great question. And we went through many iterations of this. We went through me being the sole owner of top to bottom recruiting for this organization to having an internal recruiting team of 15 recruiters that were sort of running an engine. And so I saw every evolution along the way. And I think there were a couple of takeaways that I recommend to folks when I talked to them. And the first one is, when you think about your role as a leader, at the end of the day, it's your call. And the success or failure of the sort of decisions that you make when you're hiring people rest on your shoulders. And so when you think about what is the highest point of leverage that you have throughout the entire recruiting process? In my opinion, it's two things. One, it's setting the tone in terms of what to look for, and what our criteria are, and making that very evident so that everybody who's involved with the recruiting process is aligned on the same page, right? So defining the role but also making sure that you walk the walk in terms of the team that you're building along the way. So it's self represented. And the second thing is when you think about the leverage that you have as a leader or a hiring manager, it's actually this final stage interviews and the decision of go/no-go, and the ability to close candidates and then everything that happens after that in terms of the successful ramp and management of the team. And so the thing that I suggest to most folks, is please negotiate with your CEO, or the leader, or the person who you're recruiting to, whether you've got internal recruiting resources or outsourced external resources. you need the support in terms of I prospecting and management. We've proven in so many different aspects of the business, and we can take sales as an example that specializing the sales process in terms of appointment setters, and deal closers, is just more effective. And from a recruiting standpoint, you should think about it in a similar way. And so there's just going to be...it's nice for all of us to think that we can take a sniper approach to recruiting and just pick the four people we want to hire, hyperfocus on them, and close three out of four of them. But the reality of situation is that it's never been more competitive to recruit, really in any market. And that it's a candidates market so to speak. And so you want to get recruiters working for you. And it is worth the cost of admission. And it's just something to think about when you're either taking a new role or managing up, that you really want to help define the amount of work that, that recruiter's going to do for you. And so in the beginning at Zenefits, we had a couple of SF based recruiting firms doing a lot of this recruiting for us in Arizona. And I would take flights out there twice a week and hold full on interview days where we would do upwards of 10-15 interviews, and do batch hiring. But it allowed me to really isolate and focus on being super present in the interview, and making conscious decisions to place the right bets on these people that we were hiring. And that combined with the support of the folks that I mentioned earlier who were already high performers being involved with the process, allowed us to get a lot of those early hires right, and that helped us along the journey. Naber:  Awesome, man. That's great. It's gold. One of the things that I always touch on with either my clients, or folks in groups, or keynotes, or whatever, is specialization. Once you get to specialization within the process of bringing great talent onboard and the operationalization of it - so bringing in sourcers, bringing in recruiters, and making sure you don't have generalists working on it, but specific people working on specific pieces of the process - it's a great analogy to sales that we've proven it out for SDR, for sales, for account management, customer success, the specialization across the entire spectrum. I mean it's just gold what just came out of your mouth. So I hope that people take that onboard. Two more things I want to talk about within Zenefits, and then we'll move on. So you're bringing in a shed load of those people all the time. And you're keeping your culture and your values in mind the whole time, while at the same time running at breakneck speed for bringing those people in. Two questions. One is, as you're evaluating talent at that scale - so some people that are listening are going to need to hire five people in a year, some people that are listening are gonna need to hire 500 people in a year, or maybe even 5,000 people in a year depending on,the level of responsibility that they have, listening on this conversation - So when you're thinking about bringing those people on board, interviewing all of them, sourcing all of them, what is the calibration method that you guys have used that has been most successful to make sure that you have multiple people inside the organization giving input on this person being the the right person to hire? So the right candidate, what's the calibration method that you found, that is most useful or valuable as you're going through that level of hiring at scale? Robby Allen:     Yeah, it's a good question because I think the thing that worked well for us in the beginning was not necessarily the thing that worked well for us on the pathway along the journey. And that transition wasn't super smooth. And so I was the single point of accountability, or single point of failure success, however you want to state that. And that I made the hiring decision for the first hundred or so sales reps that we hired, where I was in every single interview. And so, as you can imagine, this absorbed a ton of my bandwidth, but we were fortunate to have a lot of support in terms of ramping and making reps successful and then hitting their numbers, and we were able to stay ahead of that. So I was able to do that. Handing off that decision responsibility took quite a bit of calibration. And I think that at the end of the day with recruiting, it's nice for organizations to have a fully calibrated, well-oiled recruiting machine where you can predictably make the same decisions about hires based on an agreed upon set of criteria and principles. And I think that there's companies out there that do this really well. It's really hard to do during a hyper growth phase. And I actually recommend, to most folks, that you hold onto a single point of accountability or a single decision in terms of this hiring, as long as you can. And then as you get folks up to speed and you're able to delegate out some of some of the hiring responsibilities, do that. But I think it is really the single most important thing that you can do, when you're at a hyper growth stage. And narrowing that level of responsibility for decision down to the smallest group of stakeholders possible, it may sound counterintuitive because a lot of bigger companies do as well where it's delegated across many people. But in my opinion, I think it's better to hold on to it. And when you get to a point where you've got folks that are...Because when you keep in mind we're hiring 30 new people to start on the first Monday of every month, that by the time we've got a hundred people on board, the most ramped folks that we have on the team had been there for four months. Now this is an experience in scale that most businesses what won't necessarily have to deal with. But I think to some degree, many hiring managers have been in a position where next most tenured individual just doesn't have a ton of tenure. So you have to work with those folks, and help them become owners, and help them really understand that as an owner of the business these are the specific things that we look for, and here's how you embody those certain principles, and those are things you need to work on. But for me it would actually was holding on to that as one of the singular most important points in my job, as long as I could. Naber:  Yup. Solid. I like it. I lied, I actually have two more questions in addition to that other one. The next one in on onboarding. So, this is something that most people overlook and turn it into a checkbox exercise. What was it that you guys did to make sure that everyone - you mentioned this twice around setting them up for success - what did you do to make sure they were set up for success in the onboarding phase and anything after that? Anything you would include in that phase to make sure they're set up for success at massive scale, as you were bringing a lot of people on board in the sales function. Robby Allen:     Yeah, that's a good question. So a couple things. We, had an owner of the onboarding program from day one. So one of the things that we did was we hired somebody into a sales enablement capacity as one of the very first hires that we made. And they ran a two week bootcamp, where we put folks through everything from systems training, to market training, to competitor intel, to pitching, to live role play, and we actually would have folks get certificates. And this was something that we took really seriously because, two reasons...One, it allowed us to create a system of measurement where we can say, okay, if we are able to deliver x amount of training, what output can we measure with...months down the line, weeks down the line. And that gave us actually a feedback loop that tied back into our recruiting conversations were actually talking about ramp success of people that we had recruited three months prior, in recruiting meetings. And I think it's important that you've got that feedback loop of success on hires all the way back to recruiters that isn't just anecdotal, but it's actually looking at the data performance based on, based on how these folks got ramped. So one thing was just creating an owner early on with sales enablement was critical. Systematizing it and having a way to measure rep performance week over week and having benchmarks and then really sticking to those. Making it clear that if new hires didn't hit certain criteria along this journey in their first three months, there wasn't going to be a grace period. I mean, it really was you needed to perform at a certain level, even in the early days. And so that wasn't so much putting numbers on the board in the first month as it was showing competence, and learning, and demonstration of ability to be coached, and some of the things that we looked for. And so those were a couple of things. And to be frank, that onboarding program, we needed to tear it down and rebuild it every 90 days because what we were measuring and what we were coaching on needed to be updated based on how the business had evolved, because it was such a dense time period during hypergrowth. Then you really have to constantly be looking at it through the lens of, is the foundation correct, and do we need to rebuild it? And it turned out we needed to rebuild it every 90 days. And so it was a lot of work. But, it created a lot more relief for the managers of those people and for the people themselves once they were able to pick up their bag, so to speak, and know that they have the skills to succeed. Naber:  Cool. One more side question on that. Is there three things that you can say every person that is onboarding new sales development, sales talent, people within the sales and marketing org, or just generally onboarding...Are there a few things, maybe three things, that you have to put into or get right within your onboarding program or project? Robby Allen:     Yeah, that's a good question. So I think the first thing is it everybody needs a crystal clear understanding of what their role is, and what what the value is that they're adding to the business. And hopefully this is something you did in the recruiting process, and it sounds obvious, but helping people understand why, what it is that they're doing is so critical to the overall success of the company and the vision of the company, creates a lot of buy in early on. And for a lot of people it's one of the reasons why they consider and decide to take a job in the first place, is what's the impact that I can have? How is this going to help me grow personally, but also this business grow? And helping create that reminder is, I think, really important. And then helping people feel, helping people understand how they can fail and that failure is appropriate, I think is really important too. And I think you have to define what that failure means, but people need to feel safe, safe to fail. And by fail, I don't necessarily mean fail to show up to work,. What I mean is fail, fail in an effort to do the right thing, right? So maybe you decided to call the CEO of a company that you're prospecting into, and you get a connect, and maybe your pitch wasn't quite as sharp as you wanted it to be. But at the end of the day, you were doing the right thing, you were calling up in the organization. That's something that you want to celebrate and help people understand that that's actually something where you're doing the right thing here. Now let's talk about how we can perform better, in that specific scenario. And so creating that environment, I think is really important too. And I think the third thing is you have to create a rigorous system of measurement. So what a lot of sales leaders do is they'll pair up a new hire with the top rep on the team, tell him to sit in on demos and take notes, for as long as they need. And then after about four weeks, let's start funneling demos so that new AE, or if it's an SDR let's start or funneling leads to that SDR. And then it just becomes this sink or swim type of an environment. And you see this perpetuated I think get a lot of sales orgs, and it's understandable. I think that most of most sales leaders are great at what they do because they're looking at the bottom line results, not necessarily the top line inputs of pipeline or new talent. But if you're not really rigorous about these are the specific things that you need to do to be successful, you institute this feeling in a rep that there isn't necessarily a repeatable playbook for success, and it's actually their responsibility to create a path to success. And so what ends up happening is every rep does something different. And when every reps doing something different, you can't scale. And so you never cross that chasm, from product market fit, to repeatability, to hypergrowth. And so once you've actually got folks doing things repeatably, now you can really press the gas, and make things happen a lot faster because you've at least got the knowledge that everybody is executing and selling in a similar fashion. But you can't do that unless that folks are getting ramped up the same way. Naber:  Nice. Awesome. Man, great advice, Robby. Thanks. That's great. And then last question on Zenefits, and we'll move on after that. The machine that you put together, from a sales development perspective, from the outside looking in, just unbelievable - for all the different moving parts you had to piece together, and the best practices that you guys deployed while you were doing that. So someone that's building a sales development function, as you know, and as many people listening are going to have to do - either one, they're a sales leader and they're building sales development function. And a lot of people think that translates well, but oftentimes it doesn't. And number two, a founder, or someone that's never done this, or never been in sales before, or someone's the head of marketing, oftentimes they'll have to build sales development engine to try kick off and catalyze their first phases of growth, and then high growth, and then hyper growth. So when you're talking to people that are building sales development engines, like you did at Zenefits, and then ultimately you did at Flexport as well, which we'll get into in a second - what are the fundamentals, actually let's pull it back, not the fundamentals; What is your mindset when you're building a sales development engine, Robby? Let's start there. Robby Allen:     Yeah. Well I think, when we think about a sales development engine, your typically building this because you don't have a marketing engine pumping out leads, right? You aren't necessarily really building this engine as a first investment in the business, in a lot of cases. Typically you've already got some salespeople in the org, and closing some deals, and you want to scale that function up. But when you look at some of the other inputs into where the demand is being created, you don't necessarily have the level of confidence in what those inputs are to scale that. So you think about, okay, let's take this matter into around hands. And so I think you have to have a hypothesis about, okay, if we're going to make this investment, there's two things that we need to get right. And the first thing is the economics need to make sense, meaning we're going to need to know pretty specifically what kinds of deals and customers we're going after here, what what the win rates and conversion rates are going to be, so that we can understand if we hire one SDR how many AEs this is going to support, and ultimately how we can make the economics of the model work. So the first thing is just having a hypothesis about...and often for companies, if you're going outbound, that's going to be a slightly more upmarket targeted customer, a named account that you understand to be in your demographic of product market fit. That's pretty typical, but it can depend. And then I think the second thing is we're investing in building a talent funnel for for the business. And, this looks different at every company. If you're at a very technical enterprise sale, it can be really challenging to have a 20 year veteran AE and a one year out of college SDR, and how are you going to bridge that gap and promote that person. And in some cases you can't. So I think for the folks that are thinking about their own career paths, definitely look for the type of company where you can get promoted and elevate into full cycle roles and see growth there as well, where it's not such a big bridge to jump. But in any case, the business needs to think about what are we going to do from a talent perspective. And the best companies develop this talent pool, and and ended up recruiting directly out of their SDR organization. And, so for a much lower cost, and much faster ramp time,and typically much more successful rep, they're able to scale up the AE part of the business too. So I think about the economics of the role itself, and then the payoff being not just the output of the role, but the multi year promotion path that you're seeing for folks that you're hiring into that role. Naber:  Awesome. Awesome. Awesome. I mean, that's again, gold. Okay, cool. So let's walk Flexport now. So you get to a place where, you're ready to make a move. Why Flexport and tell us about that jump in a minute or so, and then we can talk about your experience there, and let us know what you did. Robby Allen:     Yeah. So my former boss and VP of sales at Zenefits, Sam Blond, who's now the Chief Sales Officer over at Brex, he was consulting at the time for Flexport, and was helping out specifically with their SDR team. And so he introduced me to Ryan, who's the CEO of Flexport, and I had the chance to meet Ryan and some of the other folks on the team. And, basically, Flexport is this interesting business where it's a SaaS business in a sense that they are building a software as a service product, but really it's a freight forwarding business. And I personally had not spent any time in the logistics or freight forwarding industry. So it was a new dynamic. I mean, I remember taking some supply chain classes that were required in college, and I was practically asleep the whole time. I didn't really understand contextually why it mattered, but Flexport really helped bring out that perspective, and maybe we can talk about that later. But, they basically, the business itself...Freight forwarding and logistics is an interesting supply demand business. where there isn't necessarily a lot of inbound demand regardless of where you are in the market. Essentially importers, people who make physical products overseas need to basically employ third party freight forwarders like Flexport to help them move those goods wherever they need to go in the supply chain. But they're not necessarily signing up for demos on websites the way that you would with Marketo, or Salesforce, or something like that. So they needed to have an outbound strategy for new logos. And at the time it was a little bit Willy Nilly. There were a handful of Sdrs in San Francisco. They were doing a good job, but it wasn't really set up to scale. And so I got introduced and it was a cool opportunity to be for me, one because it was a completely different industry and a new mental challenge that I was just interested in. But when I looked at the business, I saw a couple of things. One, it was growing really quickly, in spite of having basically no predictable demand generation model. So that told me that despite the fact that there's a gap here, the business is growing exponentially. And that was really exciting to me. And two, there was a unique opportunity, for me to learn, where I was going to get a chance to scale out a global team. So we needed to hire SDRs in New York City, and LA, and Amsterdam, and Hong Kong, and San Francisco, and a few other markets. And so that was, that was a unique opportunity where I had only really operated in the US before. So I came on board, shortly after leaving Arizona and coming back to SF and took a role there as the Head of Global SDR. Naber:  Very cool. So I have three things I want to talk about within your Flexport experience. Firstly, everyone has this moment, if they're going to look after global teams and businesses that have either global scale, global ambition, everyone has this moment where they move to a geographical diversification of focus and resources, away from just a single market or a single region within a market.This Is the first time, at least at scale, that you had had to do that, across different countries where you're diversifying both talent focus, resources that you're spending as well as using, and just your time management and decision making focus across multiple markets. What are some of the things that you learned, that someone needs to think about as they're diversifying across multiple markets, when you were doing this at Flexport? Robby Allen:     Yeah. So it's a great question, and there's a couple things that I learned, kind of after the fact, that I think I almost wished I'd known at the time. But the big question, and that we wrestled with Zenefits, or sorry, at Flexport, in regards to building this SDR team, was to centralize it or to decentralize it. And so at the time when I joined, we were centralized, meaning we were booking and setting demos where all of our global offices in one office in San Francisco. So we were calling out into all these different geos. And the thinking was that because it was centralized, we would be...there was a central knowledge hub. We could help ramp reps faster. We could institute best practices. We could roll out change faster. We can just generally move faster. And to remind, at Zenefits, we were a centralized model, right where we had this giant office in Scottsdale, AZ. But what we figured out was that these global markets were really different. Outbound in Amsterdam will look very, very little like does in San Francisco, or New York City. It's just, it's a completely different game. And, similar to Hong Kong, which is worlds away, in terms of being able to prospect into accounts. And so we ended up deciding to decentralize it, which was the right decision because most of the subject matter expertise for that local market lived in that local market. And so you had a GM and you had some senior salespeople in that local market who could partner up with an SDR to help target the right types of accounts. And so I think for me that was actually a big exercise and just letting go. And not being the one to control all the campaigns that we were running and all of the different messaging we were using. And the advice that I got from a senior executive at Flexport at the time was encouraging me to think about the function as a service to the global GM's that we were working with, as a service provider. And it a sales person, you're not, you don't typically think of yourself as a service provider. But basically what they were telling me was that to really focus on listening to what the unique problems where in each of these markets and provide expertise and consultation on how to solve them, but ultimately give that local GM the credence and responsibility to make that decision. And honestly, it was hard for me. I came from a place where I was successful because I was the one who is controlling and making decisions for this big organization at Zenefits. And so Flexport was a challenge for me just in the sense that, success meant letting go and I'm bringing subject matter expertise to the table and making recommendations and offering it more as a consultant, but ultimately leaving those decisions to the local GM's. And so, to come back to your question about how I'd recommend folks who have global geos that they're selling into. I think you have to treat each one its own unique problem set and hopefully get an expert in there to be the owner of that problem set sooner rather than later, and then just provide support. Naber:  Yeah, I see that a lot right now. Whether it is hyper growth businesses trying to scale from afar. So using SF or, or wherever their headquarters is, as a hub, and hiring a couple of people in a new office. Or whether they have a bunch of people in that new office or that new market and they're now moving to this model of having a GM where you have a local owner so that all of those issues, problems, and solutions can roll up through one person that understands the market versus multiple points of contact that need to then have multiple points of contact back at the hub where you've got different stakeholders that may or may not play ball, as well as others. And understanding that markets are different or situations are different. So I hear a lot of people talking about moving to that GM model as they, one, open up an office or, two, they move to it after they feel they've made enough mistakes with a non-GM model. I've heard a lot of tech businesses talk about that lately. How can you burn a lot of cash and a lot of resources as quickly as you make mistakes when you're in high growth or hypergrowth. So, I've heard a lot of people try to move away from that. The second thing I want to talk about with Flexport is Compensation Plans. So one of the things that - you and I have talked about this in the past a little bit - but one of the things that you did at Zenefits was you had to think about the construction, from a micro and mid macro perspective of putting together how people got paid, what the measurement was, and you guys have iterations and iterations of that over time. Especially as you scale, and as you either make mistakes or some things go well, and you doubled down, etc. So when you were at Flexport as well as at Zenefits - and you can talk about Mixmax too if you want, but don't move on to that too quickly - but from a comp plans perspective, what did you learn about putting together comp plans, and what are the landmines that people should try to avoid as they're putting together comp plans for sales and sales development reps? Robby Allen:     Hmm. Yeah. so the first thing I did at Flexport was I moved it from a quarterly payout to a monthly payout. And the reason that I lobbied for this, and frankly spent a little bit of personal capital on it, was that inside sales rep need quick feedback loops. And the quickest feedback loop is the direct deposit into your bank account based on the prior month performance. And because it was taking 120 days to get that feedback loop, reps weren't necessarily feeling the way that they were performing in the way that you really want folks to feel, based on these incentives. And so we moved it to a monthly program and overnight, you would see, the folks that were performing the highest behaving a certain way, and folks that weren't behaving a different way. And that's not to say that folks were coming in and being gaudy about whatever their OTE's were. But it's more just to say that you noticed a difference in terms of what the first of the month and the last day of the month, and everything in between, looked when there are monthly feedback loops. So I'm a big fan of feedback loops early and often. And when you can program one of the most important feedback loops in sales, which is incentives and cash comp plans, you want to have that happen pretty frequently. and I think especially for SDR roles, if anybody listening to this is doing a quarterly payout, or in hopefully not anything longer than that, I would consider what the operational burden would be to maybe move that to a monthly payout. And if it's not too high, I would do it. And the reason why, just because reps benefit from that feedback, especially in a hyper growth environment. So that's the first thing that we did. And the next thing that we did was we move the goals up. And that's always a hard thing to do, but the team was performing well and so we moved the goals up, and the OTE stays the same. And I think that that's always a challenging thing for a young manager to do in their career, is help people get onboard doing more work for the same pay, so to speak. But we are fortunate to have some really talented people on the team that just owned it, and went out and crushed their numbers and set the bar really high. So yeah, I mean there's a lot of specific things that I can talk about with regards to comp plans, but I'm always the belief of system of rapid feedback loops, uncapped upside, as long as it's not going to put the business at risk in any way. Those are the two things that I always try to make sure are built into comp plans. Naber:  Awesome, man. That's great. Great answer. And then, last thing, and this is more general because I know that you and I've had enough conversations where I believe that one of your superpowers is your, strategisation - that's a word... - for how you navigate your career and subsequent accurate execution...What I've always been impressed by is your ability to identify and understand very, very quickly - digest, ingest, and execute based on what you've learned, from a career development and a career navigation perspective - it's, it's fascinating to have conversations with you, especially over time. So when you're thinking about career development, career navigation, n your mind, tell us about your mindset for how people should be thinking about the next opportunities that they take - because you've had hundreds and hundreds of these types of discussions - and what actually matters. Robby Allen:     Yeah, that's a good question. So the framework that I've used that has worked well for me, is I think there's really two things that actually matter when you think about and you evaluate an opportunity in your career. And this is what I tell people who are interviewing, or how I use this framework myself. And I think the first thing is the name on the front of the Jersey. And so at the end of the day, in the beginning of your career, it's easy to get caught up in minute details about specific roles that you're in, titles, and small variances in compensation and things that at the time feel really important. And certainly to some degree are important - titles matter, comp matters. But five to 10 years after you move on from that role and you're doing something different in your career, what people are going to look back on is what was the story of that company at what part of that journey did you participate in, and what was your role in the journey? And so I think when you think about the opportunities that you're evaluating, the name on the front of the jersey is going to matter a lot more, when it's all said and done. And people associating your name with the type of companies that really matter and that are lasting go through journeys, are the ones that are going to grow your career actually quite a bit more than titles and compensation, early on. And the next thing is the people you work with. And this is a tough thing to evaluate, but when you're going through the interview process, it's really important to do a thorough evaluation of the folks that you're going to work with. Your boss, your boss's boss, your peers. If you're coming into a leadership role, the folks that are going to be reporting directly to you, and anybody around your peripheral. And the reason being is you're going to spend more time with these people than you are your family. You're going to be in there grinding it out, working with these folks hip to hip, going on a journey. And what you figure out after you go on a journey, and then start a new journey, and look back is that all of these people that you work with go on to do more journeys. And the network that you build internally, the people that you work with, can create so many opportunities for you in the future, or not depending on the quality of talent of people you work with. So I just recommend that people are thoughtful about choosing the type of people they want to sign up to work with. and it can be hard in an interview process to really get a thorough understanding, but you've got internet resources at your disposal - use linkedin. Understand are the people that you're working with active online and the type of people that are investing in their own careers, because that's gonna pay off later. And I can't tell you how many deals in my career that have gone a lot smoother because I have an internal contact with somebody that I used to work with at Zenefits or at Flexport, when we're able to open the door and get directly to the decision maker and get to a decision a lot quicker. And that's one example of hundreds. But, the people that you work with and the name on the front of the Jersey are, are really the two things I think at the end of the day that actually matter. Naber:  I love it. I love it. And, you mentioning that your network is your net worth is something that I think people remember and take away. That's awesome. So, let's hop into Mixmax. So you're at Flexport, you're making the move to Mixmax. Let's talk about that for a minute. Robby Allen:     Yeah, sure. So, my journey at Flexport was going really well, and I ended up actually getting an introduction to an early stage founder, at Mixmax. And Mixmax is actually a tool that we were using at the time, and something I was really passionate about because it was a sales productivity tool that some of the teams were using internally at Flexport, that I thought showed a lot of promise and it's really interesting. And they were looking for a Head of Sales. And so we had a dialogue going, and the opportunity presented itself for me to jump in and own the full sales process end to end, and get to build a team out from scratch. And this was a business that had gone from about zero to 5 million in revenue, all on self serve. And so they're looking to take this jump into more of a B2B sales type of a model. And I jumped at the opportunity. It was the right timing and the right place for me to go earlier than I'd ever been before, and wrap my hands around the full share of the B2B sales model at the business. And so I came on board and recruited out a team of 10 reps, so five SDRs and five AE's. And we built out an SMB, and Mid-market, Enterprise Sales team, and went to market with it. And it was an amazing journey. And we went from about zero to a million in revenue on the B2B side in about six, seven months. And it's, it's funny because I looked at the time at Zenefits, and we did,six times that or something that, in that same time period. But this was harder, and almost meant more. Just because the market that we were competing in was very competitive and going from a self serve model to a B2B model was more challenging than I could have imagined. Naber:  Okay. So, I wanna I wanna I wanna stay here for two specific topics. One of them is exactly what you just said. Going from a self serve business to a B2B or more towards an enterprise sales business - choosing enterprise loosely for the way that I say that, for defining it. But let's talk about that. Talk about the learnings you had going from that self serve business to a non self serve business as you were building at Mixmax. The learnings as in, what did you guys do well, and combining that with what do you wish you would have known at the time that you could have done differently. You don't need to define them in those terms, but comprehensively, what did you learn or what are your learnings from it? Robby Allen:     Yeah, so I think the first thing is that when you have to understand that, despite the fact that we were pretty well established, early stage SaaS business, humming it away at about 5 million in revenue, you have to look at this switch to a B2B notion as a completely new exercise in product marketing fit. And the reason being is that the notion of convincing an entire org, or at least an entire team, to buy an an annual license of your product versus signing up for a much lower risk, per se, at a slightly higher cost and doing a monthly, it's just a completely different notion. And so I think one of the things that we didn't do well early on was that we tried a bunch of different plays. And what I mean by that is that we, the product had brought applicability from recruiting, to account management, to customer success, and sales, and SDR, and we didn't necessarily nail our niche until about a couple months in, when we started to figure out that AE teams were the right team. Oftentimes they were using products that were more designed for SDR's, just by nature of inheritance and not having other options, and that these were the folks that were typically signing up on their own, and these are the ones we want to go after. And so I use this analogy sometimes when I think about scaling playbooks across different phases of growth. But, if you look at it basketball, and I use a lot of basketball analogies, so you have to bear with me. But in the product market fit phase, all you're really looking for is a mismatch that you can exploit. And so if you've got one, let's say, player on the court that's taller, faster, stronger, can jump higher or has one move that you can repeatedly go to to get a bucket when you need it, that's where product market fit is. It's not a whole range of plays. It's one play. And so we figured out what that one play is, and we went there, and we started to scale it. And, in the back of your mind, you're telling yourself, okay, I know that we're gonna have to broaden this playbook a bit more, but part of this product market fit is repeatedly running that same play again, and again, and again. Naber:  Hey, Robby - can you give an example from a sales perspective? Robby Allen:     Yeah, sure. So, I think in the context of Mixmax, the way that our business works was we would land in accounts through self serve model, we would identify the ones where we had traction, we would go outbound, so to speak, where we would reach out to the folks using the product and convert those into larger paying accounts. Very similar, I'm sure, to what you guys did with Sales Navigator at Linkedin, right? And, and so basically what we look for there is okay, we're running a range of different plays. We're running plays against recruiting teams where we're seeing similar things, account management teams we're seeing similar things, we're seeing the win rates with a AE teams just a little bit higher. And we started to figure out why and it's because of a couple things. One, the buyer who in this case is the VP of Sales, or the leader of the Sales org, typically has a budget and decision making power, and there isn't necessarily any approval process beyond them. ,And so if we can make a business case and the AE's can go to their boss and say, we need this tool to be succes

Guest: Gabriel Garcia - Global Head of Mobile Apps Marketing @Expedia, Head of Marketing - APAC @Expedia (Formerly @Newscorp, @CareerOne.com) Guest Background: Gabriel Garcia is Global Head of Mobile Apps Marketing for Expedia ($6/share in Nov ‘08 → $133/share yesterday). He is responsible for Expedia's Mobile growth and Apps adoption strategy across 35+ markets and helping define Expedia's investment plans across new app ecosystems. Besides his global remit, he leads Marketing for Asia-Pacific and is responsible for defining Expedia's marketing channel strategy and identifying growth opportunities for Expedia in the region. Prior to this role, Gabriel was Senior Director of Strategy and Business Development. Prior to joining Expedia, Gabriel spent six years at Newscorp in Australia holding several roles, including Product and Strategy Director, Director of Strategy, and National Sales Director for Newscorp's joint venture with Monster.com. Prior to this, he was Managing Director of the Latin American subsidiary of Monitoring Systems Technology, a leading European technology provider for the outdoor media industry. Originally from Mexico City, Gabriel holds an MBA from Macquarie Graduate School of Management; a Bachelor in Business Administration from ITAM University in Mexico City and studies at Hogeschool Voor Economische Studies (University of Amsterdam). Outside of work, Gabriel is passionate about travel, meditation, Buddhist philosophy, surf and his family. Guest Links: LinkedIn Episode Summary: In this episode, we cover: - The Scientific Method - Application to Marketing - Mobile App Marketing - The Customer Journey Design - A Mobile-First Marketing Mindset - Strategic Marketing and Channel Partnerships - Multiple-Stakeholder Engagement - Marketing Budgeting & Planning Process Full Interview Transcript: Naber:  Hello friends around the world. My name is Brandon Naber. Welcome to The Naberhood, where we have switched on, fun discussions with some of the most brilliant, successful, experienced, talented and highly skilled Sales and Marketing minds on the planet, from the world's fastest growing companies. Enjoy! Naber:  Hey everybody. Today we've got Gabriel Garcia on the show. Gabriel is Global Head of Mobile Marketing and Apps for Expedia, who's stock price in November '08 was down to $6 per share, but has gone all the way back up to $133 per share as of today. Gabriel's responsible for Expedia's Mobile Growth and Apps Adoption Strategy across 35+ markets and helping define Expedia's investment plans across new app ecosystems. In addition to his global remit, he leads Marketing for Asia-Pacific and is responsible for defining Expedia's Marketing Channel Strategy and identifying growth opportunities for Expedia in the region. Prior to this role, Gabriel was S Director of Strategy and Business Development at Expedia. Prior to joining Expedia, Gabriel spent six years at News Corp in Australia holding several roles including Product and Strategy Director, Director of Strategy and National Sales Director for News Corp's joint venture with Monster.com. Prior to this, he was Managing Director of the Latin American subsidiary of Monitoring Systems Technology, a leading European Technology provider for the outdoor media industry. Originally from Mexico City, Gabriel holds an MBA from Macquarie Graduate School of Management, a Bachelor in Business Administration from ITAM University in Mexico City and studied at Hogeschool voor Economische Studies at the University of Amsterdam. Outside of work, Gabriel is passionate about travel, meditation, Buddhist Philosophy, surf, and his family. Here we go. Naber:  Gabriel, awesome to have you on the show. Thank you so much for coming. Gabriel Garcia:  It's my absolute pleasure to be here with you today. Naber:  Excellent. It's our absolute pleasure to hear your beautiful accent. I can see your pretty face, but everyone else can't. They can hear your accent, which is definitely not a consolation, that is first prize. You and I know each other personally. We actually know each other more personally, than professionally. Gabriel Garcia:  We do. Naber:  So this is one of those of those fun conversations that I get to learn a lot more about you in depth professionally and how your headspace works. But, the good news is we know each other personally, and that's been really fruitful for both of us. What I'd love to do first is go through a bit of your personal story so people can get to know you like I know you. And we'll go through a few of the things how you grew up, where you grew up, some of the things you're interested in, and where you went to school, all that fun stuff. I know that you grew up in Mexico City, Colegio Greenhill School in Magdalena Contrarez, you went to ITAM in Mexico City as well. You spent time in Amsterdam, Madrid, obviously Mexico City, Sydney, Singapore. We're going to touch on your twin brother. We're gonna touch on your beautiful family. We'll touch on your other brother, although he sounds he's third place in my mind in that category, but we won't make him that. And we can talk about a few other things that are meaningful to you as well. And then we'll hop into the professional stuff, and that'll be the bulk of what we talk about today. That sound okay with you? Gabriel Garcia:  Sounds awesome. Feels we need six hours, but let's see how we go. Naber:  We won't, we'll keep it finite and not brief, but we'll keep it thorough but not too long. So why don't we start for maybe five to seven minutes on, what was it growing up as Gabriel as a kid? Where'd you grow up? What was your family situation like? What were you interested in, and then take us through school as well. Gabriel Garcia:  Sure. So I'm originally from Mexico City as as you mentioned. And it was fascinating to grow up in Mexico City, in a huge city full of opportunities and full of quite a diverse range of things to do. I'm one of four kids, so I'm in the middle of the sandwich. My twin brother and I are, so we have an older brother and a younger brother. And I was always very active, very playful, and spent a lot of time, a lot of hours playing sports at school. I remember that I loved winning. I think that's something that carried over throughout my life anyways. I'll say this humbly, but it was a maybe I see it as a gift in retrospective, where without necessarily studying too much, I was able to be top of the class more often than not, particularly in elementary school. Then things got a bit more complicated in high school. But I think also having a twin to share with made life just easier. You always had a buddy to hang out with, to share ideas with, to share concerns with. So that I think made both our lives pretty smooth at least in those early days of elementary school, and certainly through all the way through high school. Naber:  Nice. Awesome. And what were some of your interests or hobbies when you were a kid? Gabriel Garcia:  Football, football, and football, so played, played a lot of football. And that's soccer if we have an American audience somewhere in the world. I used to just do anything that was sports-related. I did karate for a few years. And did that to just one level short of being a black belt, which I regret not going through it, but that was just change of schools, and anyway that's a different story. But yeah, football, karate, those were certainly my hobbies. It was always very sports orientated for sure. Naber:  Nice. Awesome. So you said you have four brothers. You and your brother are the co-meat to the sandwich, if you will, or veggie burger depending on who's eating it. What were some of your first jobs, and what were some of the first ways that you made money? Gabriel Garcia:  Oh, I was lucky enough not to have to make money at that early stage of my life, so I was privileged enough to be able to go to school, and have an education, and our parents look after us. But I remember in high school, and that's towards maybe fourth grade of high school, I was dating this girl, and her brother was selling water filters of all things. And I met him, and he was a really cool guy. And when you're 15 years old and you meet a very cool guy that is making money, you want to be him a little bit. Particularly if it's your girlfriend's brother. So that's what I started doing. I started working with him, selling water filters. And that was the first time that I earned money. The first time that I realized that I could sell something. And the first time that I realized that there were other ways of making my girlfriend happy. Naber:  Good one, good one. Okay. That's a good answer. And so you went to school at Colegio Green Hills, southwest burbs del Mexico City. And you're going to ITAM, tell us about that journey through there. Gabriel Garcia:  Sure. So ITAM in Mexico City is the most renowned school of business and economics in Mexico City. So, when when I finished high school, it was a tough decision actually, because I was in between studying business...And I had a clear a view that if I studied business, I would go to this school, and at least go through the process of trying to get admitted to this school...But I was in between that or studying drama. Which was very different because I was really into drama and that started in early days of high school, and become a very important part of my life. And my drama teacher and Director at that time, told me to study business because I would be able to continue to work at an independent theater company, which I did for the first years of being in school until I realized that I couldn't do everything, it was too hard. So that was the reason why I studied at ITAM because I decided to start a business because it was the top business and economic school in Mexico City. I did an admission exam, I got accepted and yeah, that's how the mid nineties started, which is a period of my life where things changed a lot - from mid to late nineties. A lot of things happen. So I started university. I stopped doing drama, so that's 95-96. My Dad unexpectedly passed away in 96. In 97 I decided to do my take my first big trip to Europe, backpacking with a few friends for a couple of months. In 99, I decided to do an exchange program from business school and go and live in Amsterdam. And I came back from Amsterdam to finish my major and take on my first real job, working for a tech startup, where I ended up being the Managing Director of that business and growing it successfully. And did that for four or five years. Soon after I joined, I was growing a business, and closing rounds of financing, and building a team, which was very unexpected that I never thought I was going to be my first gig after university, but that came as an opportunity, which I took, and I'll never regret, and that's certainly cemented what my career is today. Naber:  Very cool. That's Monitoring Systems Technology, correct? Gabriel Garcia:  That's right. Yep. Naber:  So, did you bounce back and forth between Mexico City and Madrid in that role? Gabriel Garcia:  Yeah. Great question. So I was leading the Latin America...so we started expanding Latin America, so I was leading that. And then I was going to move to Madrid because I was dating a Spanish girl, and I was going to go there and study an MBA at IE Business School. And the company owners, the shareholders that I reported into told me, hey, you want to go to Madrid not because of your MBA. You want to go to Madrid because of your girlfriend. So why don't you go and try to set up the operation of this business in central Europe. The head office of this business was in eastern Europe, in Budapest, in Hungary. But we didn't have a presence in central Europe. So they made me an offer, which I couldn't resist. So I went to Madrid, moved to Madrid, did all research, etc - put a case together. But then some of the shareholders decided not to invest, and the Mexican shareholders asked me to go back to Mexico City. This is seven months later. And I agreed, not before asking for a three month a break, which I took and I went traveling to India, Nepal, and trekking in the Himalayas, which was yet another life changing experience. Naber:  Excellent. So, let's just briefly talk about some of the learnings you have from Monitoring Systems Technology cause that's a massive five year ride between two continents, and an amazing spectrum of early stage and then building up a business to having fully functional operations. So what are a few of the learnings you took away from that gig? Gabriel Garcia:  Well, first of all, I've learned how to pitch to investors, which I had never done before. And I realized that everything was possible. When you find yourself as a young entrepreneur, even when it wasn't my business idea, closing rounds of financing and seeing that there's people interested in investing in the business that you're trying to, you realize everything's possible. You realize that it's all about how you, build it, presented, wrap it up, and how you pitch. So that got me really excited. I also, I learned about people, I learned a ton about people. I realized since those days that if I was going to be a successful at all, it was all about the team that I was forming around me, and that the value that others could bring to the table was going to be way more, way higher than the value that I could deliver myself as an individual contributor. So I learned very quickly to empower people, to enable people to do their best. And it comes through...you know, there were obviously hard times for sure. But it also also taught me that when you're gonna do that, you've gotta start taking into consideration cultural nuances. Particularly when you start thinking about different countries. And I was relatively inexperienced back then. So that came at a price, it was tough. But also at a perfect age where all you want to do is spend time in the office, which is not the case today. Not that I don't love my work, but I'd rather spend times somewhere else. So those perhaps were the biggest learnings. The realization that everything is possible if you are deliberate and you're determined to do it. And how powerful it can be to enable people, even if you're young and you don't have a clear view as to what you need to do. If you surround yourself with the right people, they can make things happen. Naber:  Awesome, man. That's great. Thanks so much for that. And then MST, it comes to your time to make a move, and natural move, you move to Sydney, Australia. Classic. Tell about that move getting your MBA, and then take us through the journey of moving to Sydney get your MBA, and then takes us through News Corp and CareerOne, as well up to up to Expedia. Gabriel Garcia:  Sure. So, I wanted to study overseas. I wanted to do an MBA, and I wanted to be overseas. And my girlfriend back then, is my wife these days, Cecilia, also wanted to study a Master's. And we were traveling in Myanmar, of all places. And I remember we both said, well, if we ever live somewhere, outside of Mexico, where would that be? And we both, we both said Australia. Don't ask me why we'd never been before. But we were both really into outdoors. We used to spend a lot of time at the beach, a lot of trekking and diving, etc. And when the opportunity, well the right time came to actually go and study overseas, we were really focused on going to a top 10 business school, and by the book sort of discerning process. And suddenly we realized that wasn't necessarily what we were, only what we're looking for. So it was actually Cecilia that said, well, why don't we do some research about universities in Australia. There might be some good ones there. And we did. And that's how we ended up in Sydney. We've never been there, then we just committed to two years of study, which turned into 11 years. Naber:  Nice. That's awesome. Obviously, Cecilia bringing some sense to your decision making process. Shout out to Cecilia, because she's doing that all the time in your life. All right, cool. Keep going. Gabriel Garcia:  Yeah. So we moved to Sydney. Loved it from day one, living in Manly Beach, one of the most beautiful places in the world, I think. And after finishing our Master's, we loved it so much that we decided we would give it a go and try to find work opportunity. And we did. And I did, just a couple of consulting gigs, just very short term what I interviewing. And then this opportunity came up at News Corp. News Corp was going through a big transformation of setting up their digital business - News Digital Media it was called back then. And as part of that, a huge transformation of the classified business. So they were just growing, everything that had to do with digital media. So I started working with them in a commercial capacity, on the classified side of their business. And I did several commercial roles in a short period of time. So I was getting promoted quite frequently, which which was quite overwhelming. And I just didn't expect it that would happen that quickly. And then we ended up doing a joint venture with Monster.com, which back then was just the biggest online job board. And that was fascinating, it was a great experience. And soon after that happened, I got offered to Head Sales for the JV. And that was challenging. That was the first senior gig that I did in a Corporate environment. It was the middle of the global financial crisis. And it was hard, man. That's all I remember about that gig. It was really hard. I was just traveling around Australia and trying to keep the team afloat, and coming up with different Sales structures, and coming up with different value propositions in the market to try to, I was going to say unlock budgets, but there was nothing to be unlocked. It was just to keep the P&L afloat. And it it was great. It was tough, but it was great. And another important thing happened back then, which Cecilia was pregnant. So all this was happening while I was about to have my first kid, which was a fascinating adventure. Very quickly, a year and a bit after that, I was offered buy our CEO of the JV, a Strategy role. Which I took with so much passion because it was very different. It was very different, and suddenly I had time to whiteboard stuff. It was like, wow, I used to spend that time on planes, and talking to clients, and managing Sales Managers. So I loved that, and that grew into a Product role. So I ended up, Heading Product for the joint venture. And I did that for three and a bit years. Huge change, massive shift managing Product Managers and a couple of Dev pods, which I've had no experience whatsoever doing before. So I learned a ton out of that experience, until I realized that it was time for me to follow my dream, which was really getting into tech. And travel has always been a thing as you can see from my story here. And Expedia was always there. We'd go to conferences, and I would see people from Expedia presenting. And I had a buddy, one of my surfing buddies, that worked at Expedia, and I told him, hey, whenever something comes up, let me know. And he did. This role as Director of Business Development, heading the Partnership Business for Australia, New Zealand region came up, and I took it. And it's been a fascinating roller coaster since. Roller coaster in a good way. he downs have been amazing downs in a good way. Just learning, shaking you up, going through the company that invented online travel, to suddenly a marketplace that everyone wants to be part of with incredibly disruptive companies, and continue to try to revolutionize travel utilizing Technology, and doing that in numerous different roles. From Partnership roles in Australia and New Zealand, then covering Latin America as well, to then two and a half years later moving to Singapore to manage Business Development and our Partnerships team for Asia Pacific for a couple years before my current boss, our Chief Marketing Officer, offered me a new role, which was very different - just heading Marketing for the region, which I took. And it was a big challenge, completely outside of my comfort zone, which that's exactly the reason why I decided to take it. And that grew into what I'm doing today, which is by far the best thing of I've done, which is heading our Mobile Marketing function globally and our Apps Ecosystems, which changes every day, man, every day. It's different, and it's fascinating, and it's challenging, and I love it. Naber:  Awesome. Man, the amount of passion that comes through when you talk about your experiences, awesome. Thanks for the chronology. Let's dive into a few of a few of the strengths and super powers that you have, as well as...let's tap into some unique experience that you have. So the first thing, probably a natural segue, is you mentioned quite a few different stakeholders that you played, and quite a different few stakeholders that you obviously had at each one of those roles. So you've been the Sales stakeholder, you've been the Marketing stakeholder, you've been the Product stakeholder, you've been the Strategy stakeholder, and you've also been customer and the stakeholder on both sides of those conversations in years and years of different roles that you've had. When you're thinking about the mindset of talking to each one of those different stakeholders, can you give us some of the best practices about how one should think about interacting with Marketing, Sales, Product, Strategy as as you're having these types of conversations? Gabriel Garcia:  Sure. That's a, that's a great question. There's a lot there. let me start just by, by saying that, I don't have any superpowers. So I strongly believe that I don't have any skills that are unique. I think that everyone has a set of unbelievable qualities within them, it just takes longer to identify them and nurture them. So let me just get that out of the way. No superpowers here. Sorry. Apologies. But I would summarize perhaps, the pretty full-on question, with trust. I strongly believe that building trust is key when you're communicating with any of those stakeholders that you described. And you'll build by being empathetic. You'll build trust by listening. And it's not only when you gotta listen to customers, and you gotta listen to the partners that you're trying to do business with, and to other stake holders. But it's also about listening to yourself. You need to stay put and be true to yourself. And the moment that you do that I think is a moment where you let the best version of yourself shine. And if you are a leader, then that allows you to get the best out of the people that you're working with, right? And that just tends to have an incredible, incredibly positive impact on the relationships that you build with customers, on a direct basis when you're doing business to business, Marketing or Sales, the relationships that you have with with your team, with different stakeholders. So for the people that that I mentor, there is a common question that they sometimes ask, which is, how can how can I continue to build my brand? And I always tell them, look, focus on building your trust and then the rest will follow. So that's one thing that I would, I think it could summarize and those interactions. I think...less is more, right? So if we talk less, and we listen more, it's better. If we have less objectives or more meaningful ones, it's better. If we have less dependencies, and we're able to enable other stakeholders during those interactions to be able to execute whatever they need to execute. And that might be your team or maybe someone else's team, the better. So aim for less, aim for simplicity, while building trust. And that's a formula that has so far worked for me. Naber:  Nice love it. That's great. And one of the things that I've seen that is a common theme in the keynotes that you're doing, the content you're putting out, a lot of the quotes that I've seen you in the media, which you've had 30, 40 plus appearances in different media, whether it's interviews or quotes or events, etc. Just tons of stuff out there that you've talked about which is, which is great stuff. One of the themes that I see is talking about transforming the data quality and data-driven Marketing methods at Expedia specifically. You mention things around leveraging big data and machine learning. You talk about scientific method and the approach, as well as using VR within the Marketing scheme, Marketing Strategy. Let's take each one of those, if you don't mind. Could you talk a little bit about your mindset as you're using data driven Marketing methods? And then take us through, maybe a couple of key points around what businesses should be doing, and how businesses should be thinking about this? Gabriel Garcia:  Sure. So the first thing I would say is, this applies, in my experience, and at least something that encourage or push the teams to focus on. This applies not only on data driven Marketing. I think it applies in business in general. And that has to do with, the scientific method for sure. But I would, I would describe it better perhaps as just being scientific towards identifying growth opportunities. And that doesn't mean that you need to trade off creativity. That doesn't mean that it's just always a fall away formula. But it means that if you do it in a methodic way, you'll be able to discern what's meaningful versus not meaningful, faster. And once you're able to do that, you can iterate on it. And that's what drives growth. So, it just starts with an observation, or a data point. And again, this is where I said it doesn't necessarily have to be data driven Marketing, it could just start with a point of view, right? And that's fine, but once you have that, you need an overall objective or hypothesis that you can go in and test. If you don't have that, then if you're going to be very difficult to define some success. And also very important to understand within that objective what's in scope and what's out of scope. I've seen many, many times in business when there's a description of what's in scope, but there is no specific clarification of what's out of scope. And that just takes people in very, very, interesting paths where they spend most of the time trying to explain why they're not doing something as opposed to just focusing on what was supposed to be in scope in the first place. A good example of that could be, you're developing, I'm trying to be generic here, I can give you specific examples for Expedia, but if you're developing a new value proposition for your Product, and your success metric is engagement, then make sure that you perfectly articulate that driving incremental, customer growth is out of scope, right? Because when you look at your success metrics, that could be a quite normal questions, like, well are we driving incremental. It's like, well, no, because that was not the aim of this experiment, right? And have very clear key results. And if you think of the things I'm touching on right now, it's following almost a scientific method, right? But if you have key results, and you know exactly what's the expected output, then you can define what your success criteria is. Now, what are the primary and secondary measures of success or metrics of success. And that also allows you to identify what are potential risks or dependencies that that could become blockers into executing on that Marketing Strategy in this case. And of course, having an estimated business value always helps, right? When it's not only about the metric, but exactly how much value is that going to deliver to the business. So that's in general terms. Now when it comes to, more specifically, the application of that into Technology, or everything that we're doing with Marketing, or data science...Expedia went through this transformation a few years ago where there was just a focus on making data-driven observations and follow the scientific method. And the way that that allows us to operate today, has transformed the way in which we innovate in every single thing we do. Not only the Product, but Marketing, even as I said in some forums, even HR today follows the scientific method in the way they operat at Expedia. And you're pretty much taking real time information, and think of an e-commerce environment, and letting your customer tell you what they and don't in real time. Naber:  Interesting, can you give us some examples? Gabriel Garcia:  Well, the simplest example would be an A/B test, right? If you're a, if you're A/B testing something, what people don't realize is that you are actually getting real time feedback of whether an ad resonates more with an audience or not. How you take that feedback and how you iterate on that process is what then drives the success. But that's in the simplest example. There are obviously many other, more complex ways in which you can apply the scientific method, you can apply data science into the way that you're automating process, and learning from those data loops, and learning from your customers to improve your Product and improve your Marketing. But a few things that I would say are key to focus on, from a Marketing standpoint...if you think of how complex marketplaces have become - the multidimensional nature of the cross-channel Marketing world we live in today, there are multiple, storefronts and touchpoints, right? And I always say the same thing, which as marketers it's unacceptable to ignore the infinite amount of data that is coming our way. And everyone talks about big data, I know. But if you really take that data and ensure that the next customer interaction is being informed and dictated by the data that you've been gathering, naturally you're enhancing whatever you're putting in front of your customers, either a Product, or a Marketing message, or a value proposition, or whatever it is. And in the past, that linear path to Marketing was pretty simple, but today it doesn't work that. Today, we have different devices. Today, we have those multiple touch points. Today, we have complexities around, multi-channel attribution and cross-device attribution. And so it's a lot more complex. And the amount of customer data out there, means that the customer journey is quite fractured. So unless we find specific ways in which we can start to test with the data that we're gathering, it's very difficult to deliver on measurable results and iterate on those, which goes back to what I was saying before, right? And just following that simplistic approach to the scientific method. So what that means in practice, again, when it comes to my Marketing, when it comes to data driven Marketing and measurement, if you're truly thinking about the customer, then in order to drive sustainable growth you need to understand the value that that customer or set of customers brings in the long run, right? And I love this quote, which is from a guy from McKinsey, that I think is an Emeritus Partner now as they call them...but he says something like...I might look for you, and send it to you later....he writes a lot about capitalism, right? And the future of capitalism. And he says that the vast majority of most firms value, depends on the results three years from now, which, that's how it works. But yet Management is preoccupied with what's reportable three months from now, then capitalism has a big problem. And that happens all the time. So if I go back to what I was talking, on measurement and data-driven Marketing, we as marketers, we got to focus on the outcome, not on the metric that you're capturing, right? So some metrics like, cost per acquisition, etc, are great directional indicators. But they don't determine the value of our investments. So you need to look at what are the levers that you have in order to drive business outcomes, like customer lifetime value. And the moment that you do that, you will be challenged on your attribution models. You will be challenged on the shape of what your P&L looks like on a monthly, on a quarterly basis, even on a yearly basis. And at Expedia, we're starting to make decisions in those terms, which is, well you have one attribution model that will tell you the return on your ad spend, and you have a shadow attribution model that tells you that the mix might look slightly different if you start looking at lifetime value metrics. And not only in the 12 month basis, but even an 18 or 24 month basis. And if you're really about delivering business growth in a sustainable and future-proven manner, you cannot be looking in that short term. You gotta be, being scientific, utilizing your data and applying those metrics that look way beyond that monthly, quarterly basis. And then that keep the customer at heart. Because the moment that you do that, then customer centricity really kicks in. Because you're really delivering what the customer is interested, not only today, but 12 months from now, 24 months from now. And that drives loyalty, that drives business growth. Naber:  Yep. Oh, sorry, did you have something else to add? Gabriel Garcia:  You were asking about data-driven Marketing, and the one thing that is important to explain is why data is so critical, right? The more informed you are, and your organisation is, the more valuable your hypothesis becomes, right? And I was referring to the scientific method before. So data democratisation, and the access to it is fundamental to drive a test and learn culture, which is what drives that excellence, that iteration, at least in our business. And having the infrastructure and data warehouses, to capture the data, is an important foundation for sure. But having the right tools, and the analytics for different people to make sense of is obviously needed. Now what really makes the difference is acknowledging that unless every single person within the organization have access to the data, and there is a culture that drives an expectation of everyone having to experiment with it, the potential is not being maximized, right? So the sooner the data supply chain can be streamlined, and the data democratised for the consumer, the end consumer, that could be your Marketing Manager, that could be your Product Manager, the sooner that data become a strategic asset. So the test and learn culture at Expedia wouldn't really exist unless every single person in the organization had access to the data tools, to the performance dashboards, to the framework. But I think most importantly they were encouraged to fail all the time and make data driven decisions knowing that you're going to fail. About 70% of our tests fail. And unless you go through that journey, and the business is ready to invest on failing, then you won't be able to really make the most out of the application of the scientific method into all the experimentation to your Product and Marketing. The core there, is to just do it fast, right? You go experiment, fail, do to it fast, learn and move on to the next thing. Naber:  Excellent. And I want to go back to something you said before about longterm growth. Can you give us a bit of a sense for how that process works for you? So how do you define what that long-term growth looks like? What indicators you look for for longterm growth, and then reverse engineering, what leading indicators you look for in order to get to that place? Can you walk us through that process, the process, the step by step process. Gabriel Garcia:  Sure, let me walk you through the process, and I'll try to sort of share an example Naber:  That's what I was going to say. If you can do an example, great. If not, I understand. Gabriel Garcia:  Let me start with the process. Well first of all, you need to define...as I said, you start with, with defining, based on on observation, coming up with a hypothesis, right? And once you have your hypothesis and it's a strong enough hypothesis that you can go and test, then you start the testing process. And in terms of metrics, and to your question of what does that look in the long-term? It depends on what your objective is, right? So if your objective is to drive, for example, the shape of your P&L would dramatically change if you drive 90 day repeat rates of your customers. And the lifetime value of your platform mix varies. It's a tangible example. So customers on Expedia app are worth more, repeat more, our most loyal customers, than customers transacting on web, right? Process wise, you got to define that your objective would be to get a customer to transact on the app. Hypothesis being that if they transact on the app, they have a higher lifetime value because you know they have a higher liftemtime value by the way, but the hypothesis is because they repeat more, they are more engaged, and there's higher attach rates. As in you go and book a flight, the likelihood or probability of booking a hotel is higher. So that a process. So you go to your metric, which is 90 day repeat rate, which determines the lifetime value. You go to your hypothesis in place and you go on you test that. Now, what's happening in the analytics world behind it, I'm going to go get into the details of that, but that's just the way that you would set up your attribution model - look at the click stream and look at if a customer clicks on a Marketing link, most likely on Google, you've all got your money. Where does that customer click before you transact? How much of those clicks can you save? You've got a customer goes direct into your platform. How does that impact your costs per acquisition? How does that bring, what do we call our Marketing contribution, and if they end up because of that journey on the on the platform preference, how then the lifetime value increases. And you test that hypothesis. What are some of the challenges of this? Well, statistical significance, reaching statistical significance when you are applying some of these tests. Particularly when you're trying to do it in a small region. If you're trying to do it globally, that's fine. If you're trying to do it in the US that's fine. If you're trying to do it in Taiwan, it's not so easy. So, there are techniques to address those challenges where you can bundle together, similar cohorts that could comparatively allow you to reach that significance faster, or make certain assumptions. So that's the process that it would take. And I tried to describe the process with a tangible example, trying to simplify it, right. But a tangible example of you come up with a hypothesis, you have the metric that you know is the driver of that lifetime value, and then what follows after doing that is, or in parallel to that, is you need a predictive model. This is where it gets complex, that will allow you to tell you that in fact that's going to be the value, the lifetime value, of that customer in 12 or 24 months. Naber:  Right, there's a lot of art and science to that. Gabriel Garcia:  Yes. And hopefully you're still around 12 months later, then see how accurate your predictive model was. And once you have that 12 month cohort with a predictive model, stress testing it, you adjust the predictive model. And then life becomes a lot smoother. Naber:  Wow, that's amazing. Reverse engineering into a longterm objective from a Marketing perspective, and then testing it, stress testing. I come up with hypothesis, going through that entire process that's like, that's an amazing science and art to get right. But once you do, it sounds there's massive upside to doing it. Gabriel Garcia:  There is, there is a massive upside for sure. And it takes time, and dedication, and takes resources for sure. If you want to manage your entire Marketing engine in that way, which at Expedia we certainly aim for. And the investment into data science is something that requires a lot of resources, as you know, but it really pays off, right? That's when Marketing transformed into Marketing Technology. And either, you not only ride the wave, we believe we need to leave the way, as Expedia, when it comes to utilizing data science into our Marketing Strategy. Naber:  Love it. Awesome. Thanks Gabriel. So let's move it into something that's also a pretty reasonable transition from that particular topic, which is, which is Mobile Apps Marketing and Mobile First Marketing. So let's talk about Mobile First Marketing, mobile first versus desktop. And Asia is an amazing playground and bleeding edge petri dish for this particular topic. If someone's thinking about mobile first Marketing, and they want to either transform their Marketing Strategy into mobile first Strategy, or if they are currently in that model right now, but they want to optimize it, what are some best practices for a mobile first Marketing Strategy? Gabriel Garcia:  Great question, Brandon. The first thing I would say is, be ready to make tradeoffs. There's not such thing as free lunches, and you just got to make those trade offs. But if you are not thinking and operating that way, then you'll have to pay the consequence in the future. And to be fair, I mean we're not the pioneers of Mobile Marketing, or Mobile First Marketing. A company like Facebook, really took a stand on developing for mobile first and moving their whole company in that direction. We were kind of the late comers to the party from a tech perspective. But as the first thing, the trade offs. What I mean with trade offs, is, well, you just gotta recognize and acknowledge where your customers are spending time. Once you understand where your customers are spending time, you realize that marketplaces and mobile environments, at least to date, can be more expensive. And can be more expensive because market dynamics are different, because the cost per clicks might be different, and they're going to vary tremendously from country to country, and from region to region, right? There are some more advanced regions where the Marketing mobile ecosystems are very different. If we're talking about, what my team does with environments in Japan, you got to take into consideration Line as an environment. Or in Korea, Naver as a platform. Everywhere else is going to be highly driven by Google, for sure. But you gotta make sure that, when you're designing a mobile first Marketing, you have a mobile first Product to deliver to your customer expectations. And I guess it depends on what your business is all about and which industry you are operating in. But for sure, if you are operating in the online world, and certainly if you are operating in a two sided platform ecosystem as as we do, where you have consumers at one end and hotel partners, and airlines, and cars, etc on the other end, you have to tweak that engine, and you got to tweak that engine with a mobile first approach. If you tweak one side of the engine with one lens, and the other one with another lens, then things break...they don't break. They just cost a lot of money because you're not optimizing your Marketing spend as much as you could be. Naber:  Right, you're hedging on both sides. Naber:  That's right. So I touched on a couple things there, which are tradeoffs and acknowledging the relationship between Marketing and Product. The third thing, and I think it's all encompassing is design, right? And I say it's all encompassing because design touches Marketing, touches Product. The message that you would deliver in a mobile platform is not necessarily different to the message, per se - when you talk about specifically Apps it might be different, right? - but, per se is not necessarily different to the message that you would deliver on desktop. But the experience will be different. The design of the customer experience will be significantly different. How you optimize those landing page experiences in order to optimize your return on ad spend, in order to optimize the delivery of your Product, of your service, will be dramatically different. And if you try to do both...so there are two things very critical for me. If you try to do both, as in you try to put the same weight into one or the other, as in, desktop and mobile, as I said, you might fail. You need to trade off. But also very importantly, you can not assume that as the world has gone mobile then delivering the same experience in a platform agnostic way is going to solve the problem. And that's what makes it challenging. You still gotta A.) acknowledge that cross device behavior, but go and develop mobile-unique experiences for your customers. And once that you have that experience designed, then the bidding, the automation, the algorithms that allow you to optimize your Marketing spend, that's the least of the concern that just takes, again, time and iteration to continue for the machine to learn, and get better at, and particularly on bidding platforms. But it's connecting the customer, depending on which part of the journey it is, with a shopping intent, with how they are going to resonate with that message, with where the experience is where they're going to land is what really drives mobile first everything. Unless you see it in that lens, you won't be able to solve a customer problem. Naber:  Right. Okay. Got It. And as you were explaining that, one of the things...and that was great by the way. Thank you. One of the things you were explaining was creating those mobile specific journeys for the customer. When you're having those conversations, and you actually sit down in those meetings - when you're the Marketing stakeholder, sitting with the Product stakeholder, sitting with other stakeholders in the room, from Eng, or whatever orgs need to be in that conversation, or they happen chronologically back to back, whatever. What input should Marketing have, and how much input should Marketing have in those discussions around the actual customer journey creation? Gabriel Garcia:  Yeah. Love it. We're just going through all of that right now. Well, first of all, if you're going to go talk to a customer, or set of customers, or the world about what you stand for, you're going to deliver it on your Product, right? So the world in which Product develops Product, and then we find a way to Market it I don't think it's successful anymore. So Marketing should help define what do we stand for as a company? What do we stand for as a Product? What customer problems do we solve? What benefits do we provide to the customer? And that is based on user research. That is based on being close and having a full understanding of ecosystem, and environment, and marketplace that you're braiding in. And once we fully understand that and you articulate that value proposition, then you come out with Products that will fulfill that, right? One of the biggest mistakes that I've seen is what I mentioned in the beginning. It's the opposite. It's like, well, we build this great product, Marketing go and find a way of selling. Come up with a value proposition. I'm saying that it hasn't worked. But In today's world that tends to fail. Naber:  Right. Cool. That's good. I have like a hundred followup questions, but I think we should stick on that one because that's actually really good advice, and a good overview around the way a Marketer, and Marketing mindset, and Marketing leaders should be thinking about it. Okay. So, one last question from a Mobile Apps perspective, when you're thinking about principles or the framework that one should be using as they're thinking about mobile app Marketing in marketplaces, what are the set of principles or framework that someone should be using as they're putting together their Strategy? Gabriel Garcia:  First of all, is your business and app only business or not? If it's an app only business, it's completely different. As in the marketplace, the ecosystem that you're going spend most of your time are the app stores. And that's the biggest lever that you have, and then how you go and promote your app. I mean there are many different ways of doing it, through paid advertising and different networks, which, I don't necessarily recommend. There's a lot of fraud out there, and that continues to be a challenge for the industry. Now if you have a business, regardless if you have a bricks and mortar side of your business, but if you have an online business, and there's an app component, then it's slightly different. Because you got to define, how are you adding value to your customer through an app ecosystem. Remember when we're talking about the scientific method and the applicability of scientific method into testing your way through, and I mentioned the lifetime value of our app customers, it might look very different in another company or another industry. So what is the benefit, or what is the customer problem that your app is trying to solve? Once you have that well defined, then if you have a significant mass or the majority of your mass is coming through the web, hands down that conversion of web customers into app customers could be the most effective with the highest return Marketing Strategy that you could apply. You are leveraging your own assets. You're monetizing the traffic that you already captured, and driving them and converting them with no extra costs into a platform that would allow you to engage with them in more meaningful ways. Naber:  Cool. So you're avoiding initial acquisition costs. And you're taking someone and potentially even approving their longterm value based on a few of the attributes you said before around the hypothesis around why mobile app customers could have a higher lifetime value. Gabriel Garcia:  Correct. So, but again, you first got to define and understand, what is that customer journey? Where do they start? And depending on what your business is all about, right, the examples that I'm giving here are very e-commerce driven perhaps, and some of them very travel focused. But I think in general you have to understand the role that that your app plays. And also take into consideration when you look at the economics...and we spent years on this, even when I wasn't directly involved back then...the dynamics of the app stores are changing. So, Google and apple obviously figured out that there are ways of making tons of money out of them, as they do. So there is a lot to be said about app store optimization or ASO, as we call it, on having the right creative, the right copy when customers are searching for an app, within the industry,or whatever, they're looking for to make sure that based on that your app appears or features. So think of the SEO of app stores. But more and more so prevalence of paid ads within that ecosystem. So think of SEM, Search Engine Marketing, it's changing the rules of the game. Right? So now, now the application of data science, for example, within my team into these platforms is becoming critical to continue to optimize our spend on platforms Google, Apple, Facebook when it comes to driving app downloads. So those will be some of the fundamentals. App store optimization, and making sure that your, not only the creative on the app store, but the copy of your app store, is taken into consideration. So understand what Google is looking for or what Apple is looking for when someone is searching for an app. Understand the dynamics of that organic search result with the paid search results, so you can optimize your bidding of those ads. Take into consideration things your competitor will bid for your brand term. And that again changes dynamics, or adds challenges to those dynamics. And outside of that app store ecosystem, or organic view of the app store ecosystems is where the customers are gonna come from. And what are the different touch points that you can leverage in order to present your app? And let me say this, incentivized downloads incentivizing, incentivized installs do not work. There's a lot of fraud, and they don't drive lifetime value. So if you are a marketer, which is going to be assessed on how many downloads you drive, and that's it, you should challenge your boss. Because this is not about how many downloads you drive, this about what are the outcomes that a download is delivering, depending on what your business is all about. If it's transactions, if it's some sort of engagement, some sort of subscription, e-commerce, video games. Naber:  Awesome. Awesome. All right. I'm going to go, I have two more topics that I want to cover, and this has been amazing so far. Thank you. First one is a jump into Marketing Partnerships and Channel Partnerships. When I'm thinking about building out strategic Marketing partnerships and strategic Channel partnerships within my business, partnering externally, what does the planning process look in order to choose the right potential partners? And what do you think is the best way to start courting and having the right discussions so that you get the accurate partnerships that you want at the end of the day? So that the results are exactly what you want, to getting the right partnerships, and then ultimately to creating a ton of mutual value together. So what's the planning process look like? The coating process? And how do you make sure that you have the right aligned initiatives so you get the right results together? Gabriel Garcia:  So, there are a few questions there. So let me try to address one by one. First of all, unless there's the concept of value creation, there's no such thing as a partnership. So if you start identifying potential partnerships, or what you think will be apprenticeship based on the benefit that company would bring to your business, without thinking first of the benefit that you will bring to their business, you're on the wrong path. So value creation, number one. Number two, quite simplistic, but what's your objective of your Partner Marketing activity, right? Is your objective to create a marketplace that will allow you to tap into a set of customers that you cannot tap into otherwise? In our case, yes, hence I'm mentioning it. Is the objective related to a brand that will bring brand equity from a brand, from a PR perspective? That's very valid as well, thought economics and the commercial will look quite different. Is the objective to create a marketplace that you can go and monetize? And saying that in our case, we have partnerships, we call our hotels our partners, and airlines are partners. But then you have, Partner Marketing, which are companies, which is what I did for many years, and we would have a partnership with an airline in a different context. Which is the airline might want to have our hotel content for them to sell it in order to enhance their value proposition. Or a Telco that is interested in our loyalty program, in order to provide travel benefits into their customers. So, I mentioned value creation. Secondly, not only what is the potential business value, but what is the complexity on delivering to that partnership? I've seen many situations where when you go and scope out the business opportunity, it looks fantastic. And if there is an average, or not perfect, it's not only about average, it has to be perfect due diligence on what are going to be the technical requirements in order to deliver it to that partnership. Oh man, you can get into this 12 month, 18 month, 24 months project in which just the cost of delivering completely offsets any business value that that partnership was going to bring. Naber:  Do you have any suggestions on how much due diligence to do before you actually have the conversation with a potential partner? Or how deep to get into it with the potential partner before you go have internal discussions with your technical teams? Where's that balance? Gabriel Garcia:  Yeah. I would say starting with basic research about the company, it's important, but there's no need in my experience, unless you're thinking of an M&A opportunity, to go, incredibly, incredibly deep. You're going to learn a lot more by talking to people than what can you find publicly available. So obviously get enough information to have a meaningful discussion, and know if it's worth your time and their time. But certainly my experience engaging with a potential partner, the sooner the better. So that's one. Two, I normally or used to, coach my team on making sure that once they have that first discovery meeting, it's quickly followed by a meeting where, if you think of a pyramid you're bringing people from at least two different levels of that hierarchical structure. But more importantly that you get enough horizontal view, and you bring someone from Technology, someone from Finance, from very early days. If there's something to be flagged, or concern to be addressed, it's better that that happens early in the discussions, and these things tend to come up quite late, and they just add tremendous complexity when deal is already in progress. And thirdly, in terms of the people that you bring, just try to match them, right? There's no value of the potential partner bringing one of their engineering managers if your Biz Dev guy is not going to be able to fulfill their inquisitive nature on the tech side of the deal, right? So just match whoever is coming. Or even use as the leverage, the fact that you will bring someone, in order to get the other party to bring theirs. And then you start building relationships naturally, and organically, and accidentally, if you like. It's not accidentally, it's on purpose. But you start building relationships across organization, different levels of seniority. And suddenly that engineer will be having coffee, or more likely a beer or a spirit if they're engineers, with your engineer. And that goes a long way when it comes to getting a deal done. Naber:  Absolutely. I love the tactical guidance you just gave. I think that's gold around both encouraging, enticing and incentivizing, the other group to come to the table with the right cross departmental expertise. And making sure that you plan ahead for that in the first place. That is excellent tactical guidance.Love it. Okay. Hey, last one, Gabriel. So Marketing Budget and Planning process. You've gone through, you don't have enough fingers to count. I know, that's not a hint at you being old, but you're old. But the number of budgeting and planning processes cycles that you've been through is high volume, and you've got ton of experience. Do you have a process that you go through every single year in order to make sure you get that right? Gabriel Garcia:  Yes. Although the process has changed at Expedia, which makes everyone's life easier. If you're gonna utilize Technology and algorithms to predict a certain behaviors, why wouldn't you use it to predict what business cycles and financials would look like, right? So we do that these days, which very cool has changed dramatically the amount of effort and hours that we will put into. Having said that, once you have that initial view, it doesn't matter if it came from Finance, if it came from an algo, if you have the time, and your teams have the time, a bottoms up approach is always very helpful. Not in a level of granularity that would just kill your day, and weeks and months. But just to see ballpark, if the trend and the business trend, which the business thinks they'll be heading, actually make sense. And also, and the reason why I've done this over over the years, it gets your teams involved in the process, makes them accountable for delivering the number, and if they have any concerns, they will raise those concerns many, many times with incredibly valid business justifications. As opposed to that becoming a potential friction once the budgets are rolled out. So those are couple of things there. And I would say more often than not, when you get into the weeds of those P&L's, and try to make marginal changes, and put things up and down a notch, and convince other teams to be more aggressive or negotiate with your CFO why you shouldn't be that aggressive, or ask for more money...There's always, in my experience, a moment of oh, which is did a 360 here. So, over the years, whenever I'm realizing that I'm about to go into that moment, I go like, stop, just stop and drop it. It's easy to say because at Expedia, we go through those cycles every quarter. Every quarter we run our forecast, we adjust. Not our plan, our plan is our plan for the year. But we adjust our forecast, we change our Marketing mix. we manage it at a super granular level every quarter to bring into consideration market dynamics, the shape of the industry, competitors, geographical challenges, headwinds, tail winds, etc. So yeah, those would be the things I would leave the audience with. Bottoms-up if you can to get people to be a part of the journey. Don't get deep into the weeds, if you've done it before and you know that the change or adjustment is going to be marginal, it doesn't make a difference. It all normalizes in 12 months, more often than not. Naber:  Yeah. Good one. Good advice. All right. Amazing. Thank you so much, Gabriel. I've got two rapid fire questions for you. Gabriel Garcia:  Bring them on. Naber:  Okay. First one, best travel booking advice that you have? You work at Expedia, you've have to have said this 400 times. We've got a lot of travelers in the audience, so that'd be good. Gabriel Garcia:  Well, book in advance. Seriously. We do an air survey every year, and that's really we'll documented with a bunch of data points that we bring to look at different patterns, and what are the price differences in different times of the year in order to get the better price points, and be able to serve those to our customers, and give advice for customers. So rule of thumb, the earlier you book, the better, for sure. If you're going to travel economy, business is slightly different, but if you're travelling economy, more often than not you will find the better deals at least three months in advance to your trip. And I'm talking flights obviously. And better prices at least the last year, because it does vary year by year, not tremendously, but it does vary. Saturday or Sunday tends to be the best day of the week to book. That's what our data shows, right? Just looking at pricing trends. When it comes to hotels, and maybe this just sounds an Expedia pitch here, but hotels provide us with different types of hotel rates, right? And there's some that are called package rates. So the moment that you book a flight, that package rate is unlocked. So if you're going to book a flight and hotel, if you book the flight on Expedia, you're unlocking a hotel rate which is very unlikely you'll be able to find somewhere else. And that combo might actually result in significant savings. And that is big part of our value proposition to our customers. So those would be my top tips. Naber:  Gabriel, am I correct in that the unlocking of savings you get from the hotel bookings is actually valid for, not just right when you book the flight, but as also residual until a certain time after that ? Gabriel Garcia:  It is residual the day of your trip. So if you book a flight today, and your flight departs in three months, that preferred rate is valid until the day of departure. Naber:  Awesome. So cool. Okay, that's great. Thank you for that. And last one. I tell the audience this every single time, but I ask this question with people's birthdays. Actually, I've asked this question to you on your birthday. I think we were having a couple of drinks. What is the most important lesson you've learned professionally in the last 12 months? Usually I ask personal, but we'll go with professional right now. Naber:  In the last 12 months. Hmm, I have to say, and t's not new. I didn't learn this the last of months, but the last 12 months has been a good platform to put it in practice. And not only that, to share it with others...Is that things like empathy, and well being, and overall happiness are trainable skills. And the mind is trainable. So the reason why I say that in the context of the last 12 months is because this is something that I've been coaching and delivering a couple of courses, well some of the teams here, but also some of the people within my team in the US when I was recently in San Francisco, and some of the engineering teams there...on mindfulness, meditation, and the benefits of it. And the more that I bring into the workplace, and again following that scientific method, the more empirical evidence I have that that is factual. That it's true. Naber:  Very cool. Love it. I have to actually sneak in a bonus one here because you are very passionate about meditation. If someone's just getting started with meditation, can you give a couple of tips in order for them to get through some of the tougher times in the very beginning? When they don't think they're very good at it, inherently. Gabriel Garcia:  The fact that you are realizing that you're not very good at it, it means that you're on the right path. Because when you're trying to meditate and you realize that you're distracted, that's meditation. Meditation...normally the three very, very basic steps is that - you are trying to tame your mind...So the three steps are that you focus on something - and that could be your breath and then you will get distracte

Guest: Niji Sabharwal - Co-Founder & CEO @AgentSync (Co-Founder & CEO @AgentSync; Formerly @Zenefits, @LinkedIn) Guest Background: Niji was the Global Sales Strategy & Operations Manager at LinkedIn (IPO in 2011, $27B Acquisition by Microsoft in 2016), where he led global, best-in-class sales ops teams focused on driving sales pipeline for all of LinkedIn's B2B businesses. Niji then worked with Zenefits ($4.5B Valuation, $584M Raised) as the Head of Sales Strategy & Sales Operations, where he built the Sales Ops & Strategy function consisting of the CRM, metrics & insights, sales compensation, sales productivity, territory design and deployment, and deal desk teams; enabling growth from 20 to 500+ sales employees.  Niji is now the Founder & CEO of AgentSync, an application built on Salesforce.com that automatically enforces state producer licensing & appointment regulatory requirements through an integration to the National Insurance Producer Registry (NIPR) - Minimize your compliance costs and prevent regulatory violations before they occur by letting technology do the heavy lifting. Guest Links: Website | LinkedIn Episode Summary: In this episode, we cover: - The Playbook: Build Your Sales Strategy & Operations Function - Sales Systems & Tools Function - 1st Hiring Profile, Landmines - Sales Capacity & Resource Planning & Analysis Frameworks - Sales Metrics and Reporting - Leading & Lagging Indicators - Tips for Managing Sales Strategy & Operations Stakeholders - Maximizing Your Inbound Lead & Sales Engine Full Interview Transcript: Naber:  Hello friends around the world. My name is Brandon Naber. Welcome to The Naberhood, where we have switched on, fun discussions with some of the most brilliant, successful, experienced, talented and highly skilled Sales and Marketing minds on the planet, from the world's fastest growing companies. Enjoy! Naber:  Hey everybody. Today we have Niji Sabharwal on the show. Niji the Global Sales Strategy and Operations Manager at LinkedIn (LinkedIn IPO'd in 2011, and then were acquired by Microsoft for $27 billion in 2016), there Niji led global best in class Sales Ops teams focused on driving Sales pipeline for all of LinkedIn's B2B businesses. Niji then worked with Zenefits (who have a $4.5 billion valuation on $584 million capital raised). He was there as the Head of Sales Strategy and Operations where he built the Sales Ops and Strategy function, consistency of the CRM, metrics and insights, Sales Compensation, Sales Productivity, territory design, deployment and deal desk teams. They enabled growth from 20 to 500+ Sales reps while Niji was at Zenefits. Niji is now the founder and CEO of AgentSync, an application built on Salesforce.com that automatically enforces state producer licensing and appointment regulatory requirements through an integration to the National Insurance Producer Registry (NIPR). It helps minimize your compliance costs and prevent regulatory violations before they occur by letting technology do the heavy lifting. Here we go. Naber:  Njii! Amazing to have you on the show. Thank you so much for joining us. Niji Sabharwal:  Yeah, thanks for having me. Naber:  Yeah, no worries. We've known each other for a long time, almost nine years now, I think we've known each other. Niji Sabharwal:  A little too long. Naber:  Haha, that's right too long. That's right. We should, we should cut this off. We should actually, before it goes downhill too fast, we should probably cut it off. We really can only go down. So I'm pumped to have you on for so many reasons. We are close enough where I know you personally and professionally, and we've gotten to know each other on many different levels. One of the things I want to do is have people get to know you, a little bit more personally because I want their fascination to grow in you, as my admiration, and fascination, and inspiration from you has grown. So we'll talk a little bit what it was growing up as Niji, what you were like as a kid, all the way through to decisions you made around where you went to school, and some of the things you did, and interests, and some of the first jobs you had. And then we'll jump into the meat of it, which is talking about your roles at some of the amazing fast growing hypergrowth Unicorn businesses that you've been at. Because you've been at some of the fast growing in the world in some pretty senior, significant roles. So, why don't we start with first, Niji as a kiddo. So, I know you grew up in San Francisco, grew up in Palo Alto and your Mom and Dad are amazing. And you had so many different varied interests as a kid. You went to a bilingual school, high school in Palo Alto, you got went to uni at UCSB. Let's walk through some of that stuff. Give us maybe three, five minutes and it's going to be longer, because I'll ask questions, but what was it growing up as a kid in Niji's life? What was Niji life as as a kiddo? Niji Sabharwal:  Yikes. Naber:  Ha, that's a good start. Niji Sabharwal:  First off, my dad's from India, my mom's from France. I was conceived in Maryland, actually that's where they met. And they were both on foreign exchange programs, in Frostburg, Maryland. Quickly after news of conception was heard, they moved to San Francisco for better opportunities. My Dad actually went to Golden Gate State, basically a community college. I was born in San Francisco, basically first generation. And so I was raised speaking English and French, and I started school at Ecole Bilingue, which is a French-American bilingual school in Berkeley, California. Naber:  So tell us a little bit about that. You were learning in French, correct? Or were you learning in English? Niji Sabharwal:  Both, which is kind of crazy to think about now, until probably, when I actually went to high school, I can't remember if I if I thought in French or English. But even to this day, sometimes I'll think of a French word, but...I'll think of a word in French first, and the English word won't exist, for it. Naber:  Haha, that happens in French a lot actually. Niji Sabharwal:  Yeah, totally. Yeah. The languages come from the same place, but there's a lot of French expressions that you just can't do in English. Naber:  Right, right. So, you and your brother both went to the school, correct? Speaker 5:        Yeah. So five years, five years younger. Naber:  Cool. And then what were you interested in as a kid? What were Niji's interests? What were your hobbies? What were you doing? Niji Sabharwal:  I was really into Green Day, Green Day was my favorite band. Got into rock, and then punk rock in the early days. Naber:  Best best green day album? Dookie? Niji Sabharwal:  Dookie, for sure. Hands down. Naber:  Just making sure. Just making sure. Niji Sabharwal:  Yeah, and I was always into building things. Legos, and...and Sim City 2000. I don't know if you've ever played that chorus. Naber:  Of course, of course. It's a throwback. Niji Sabharwal:  There you go. Lemmings is my number one favorite game in the entire planet. Naber:  Awesome. So you're into building things, that makes a ton of sense for what you're doing professionally right now, and how your mind works. Tell us about going into high school, and how you were in high school, and some of the things that you're interested in as well. Niji Sabharwal:  Yeah. So going into high school, I had little bit of a tough time. I was diagnosed with an autoimmune disease when I was 13. So I was hospitalized, basically for a summer. It was an autoimmune disease that affected my nervous system. So I lost a ton of weight, had trouble with motor functions for awhile. So it took me a couple of years to get back into it as the beginning of high school. I've been fortunate, but luckily I got through it pretty much unscathed. I have trouble with balance still today. If I closed my eyes in the shower, I don't know which way is up. Yeah. Which it can be challenging sometimes, I still ride a motorcycle today, which, I'm just gonna make sure never to close my eyes. Naber:  And you've always been in a motorcycling, sorry, motorcycle riding. Can you tell us a little bit about that? Niji Sabharwal:  Yeah, there's nothing like being on a motorcycle with wind at your face. It's almost meditative in a lot of ways. When you're on top of a motorcycle, there's nothing else you're thinking other than the moment that you're in, every second. There's something really, really special about that. I've tried to meditate in a lot of ways, and never been been able to fully do it, completely unconnect. Except for on a motorcycle. On a motorcycle, you're not thinking about anything else. It's kind impossible actually, it's actually very dangerous. Naber:  Right, right. I mean, and Niji likes to go fast, on on a bike. Tell us a little about how motorcycle riding has played a role in high school, and as you were growing up. Because you were really good at it, and you did it with a lot of people, it was a big part of your life. Tell us a little bit more. Niji Sabharwal:  Yeah. So, it's a very dangerous sport, first of all. So we would, basically ride in pretty big packs, full leathers. We would go up and down the coast, and all the way out to almost to Nevada and back, through these mountain roads. And yeah, a few guys from the group, broke tons of bones. Luckily we didn't have anyone die on the team, but, had a couple of guys actually helicoptered out of the canyons from crashing. And so it was a pretty intense sport, and intense group to ride with. But, looking back on it now, now that I'm middle-aged and have have a lot more to lose, I would never go back to those days. But in the moment, there was was something just so excited taking life to the edge as much as you can. Putting myself back into my 20 year-old body, there was nothing more exciting. There's nothing cooler that you can do. I'm glad I made it through that period, and didn't die, of course. Naber:  Jenn's glad too, Jenn's glad too. Again, I've known you for a long time, I know you really well, but I always think that those stories are fascinating. And it's such an interesting hobby that so many people don't have, and not a lot of people know that much about. And again, I just think your story is fascinating. So you're in high school. You went to Palo Alto High School, and you're going to go to UCSB. Why UCSB? And tell us a little bit about you there. Niji Sabharwal:  Yeah. So, when I was in high school, I was in California, it was a very competitive time. I graduated in to 2003. It was a very competitive time to be entering the college candidate pool. And I applied to most of the UC's which, in California, they're public schools. They're still ungodly expensive, but, I knew I wanted to do that versus going into private school. It's a difference between $9-10,000 and $40,000 a year. So I was really vying for a state school. Either UC or a state state sponsored school. And there was insane amount of competition, and I didn't have the best grades. I probably didn't apply myself more, as much as I should have in high school, and a graduate with a 3.3 GPA. And my SAT's were pretty average, 1330. But I had a really, what I thought was an amazing essay. And the essay that I wrote was about my second chance at life, going through the autoimmune disease I had. Facing death at a very young age, especially entering high school, and having to really face that head on, and getting through it, and having full capacity coming through it. It really a second chance. And English professor, English is probably my worst subject. I'm terrible at writing, I barely know the English language, and I actually scored way higher. on my French SAT's than I did on my English SAT's, which is pretty funny. Naber:  Wow. Niji Sabharwal:  So my English professor in high school was a UC Santa Barbara Alumni. And he spend some time with me crafting the essay, and giving me notes, and helping me make it, you know, a pretty compelling story. So I think that's what ultimately actually got me over the edge. Because, UC Santa Barbara had a 1% acceptance rate, something crazy that. So luckily, 3.3 GPA, it was decent, but at the time there was they could have easily only accepted 4.0 and still had twice as many applicants as they had spots. And I was pretty fortunate there, it was an amazing school to get into, especially because my focus has been economics and business, and UC Santa Barbara had an economics professor that actually got the Nobel Prize for economics, in Finland. Naber:  Wow, cool. And that's an awesome segue, and it's a really good story for how you got in, and the essay around your second chance at life, and your mindset at such a young age. It's incredible. So let's talk about you at UCSB a little bit. What kind of student were you? And what'd you study? And then we can get into some professional stuff. Niji Sabharwal:  Yeah. So pretty terrible student. Yeah, I hated going to lectures. I hated the whole system of having...because UCSB was on a quarterly system. It was kind of this terrible cycle of just studying your nuts off, the day before midterm or final. And if you can master that you can get through college, no problem. Which is kind of a terrible way to do it because...it's really terrible. I kind of gamed the system in a way, and figured out that, okay, if I just really apply myself the week before midterms, the week before finals, I can get through the whole thing. So to be brutally honest, I kind of squandered my education, and didn't take out of it what I probably should have, had I known what I know now. And we'll spend...I would l ove to go back to college right now. If someone could, like, float my life to learn for four years, there couldn't be anything better for me. Naber:  That's cool, it's an interesting thought process Niji Sabharwal:  Of course. But at the time, the only thing I was concerned about what's next, and partying, and socializing, and all that good stuff. So I spent probably a little too much time partying. We bought a bunch of jet skis and we would, we would basically launch jet skits directly from the beach in Santa Barbara, and just launch them off waves. Tons of fun. But honestly, yeah, I definitely squandered my education there. I didn't spend enough time studying, and spend too much time partying, but got through it nonetheless. Naber:  Nice. Got through it. It sounds the thrill seeker in you still has an unquenchable thirst at that point. And so you graduate from UCSB. What's your first role out of school? Do you go into HP at that point? Niji Sabharwal:  So out of school...I did an internship at HP. It was an emerging markets business unit that they've formed, selling a PC to small villages in South Africa, and Brazil, and some parts of Russia - where it was a shared PC unit to provide internet connection, and the ability to communicate and create an e-commerce marketplace for small businesses within those communities. I did that internship for about two years. So basically two summers It was actually really rewarding, a really rewarding project. HP ultimately ended up sunsetting that business unit, but it was a great launch into tech. And you're coming from...in college, Facebook was just starting to get traction at that point. So at this point people weren't quite...the internet was just becoming a real powerhouse as far as connecting people and creating a a marketplace online. Naber:  That sounds like a really rewarding project. I mean, the goal and the mission of the project must've been really rewarding, especially as you're going through school and had your first types of professional experiences. This must have been really rewarding. Alright, so you go through those projects, and then you end up at LinkedIn. Tell us how you got to LinkedIn, and then walk us through what you're up to at LinkedIn. And I'll stop, and ask a bunch of questions on some of the things that I know you're both good at, as well as some of those experiences you had. Niji Sabharwal:  Yeah. So after I graduated, I graduated in 2009. The worst year that you could possibly graduate with an economics degree, as this was right after the economic crash. I couldn't get a job at Pete's coffee. I applied to two Pete's coffee's with a degree in business economics from UC, and couldn't get a job to save my life. But went on an ggressive job hunt for months after I graduated, and ended up landing a job as, basically, a front desk cashier at rubber stamp company in Berkeley. Yeah, Berkeley Stamping & Engraving. They did rubber stamps and trophy engraving. Naber:  Trophy engraving and rubber stamps. So what were you doing for them? Niji Sabharwal:  So at first I was manning the front desk, taking orders, accounts receivable, accounts payable, and then the owners of the business trained me up on how to actually make the rubber stamps and operate this this old school engraving tool that they had that was run on an old, very old, DOS system that had different fonts for engraving different surfaces. And that was honestly probably the funnest job I've ever had. A whole workshop of rally cool shit to play with. They still made stamps the old fashioned way with a photo emulsion. So, we'd do typesetting digitally, and then we would take the typesetting and convert it to basically a film negative. And then film negative to imprint onto photo emulsion, so that you actually get the crazy amount of detail versus just doing it fully digital. And Berkeley Stamps & Graving was one of the...if you ever look at a bag of Pete's coffee, they don't use stamps anymore, but 10 years ago, if you looked at a bag of Pete's coffee that had a stamp on it that said, dark roast, the odds of me physically making that stamp are like 99%. Naber:  That's cool. Niji Sabharwal:  Yeah. It's funny that I couldn't even get a job at Pete's coffee, but, they were keeping that business alive, more or less. They were based out of, Oakland, California, and they really invest in local businesses. So they would only use local businesses for things like stamps that they use for all the locations nationwide. And that was the account actually kept Berkeley Stamp & Engraving open for so as long as they were. Naber:  Would it be fair to say you couldn't get a job at Pete's coffee, but you really put a stamp on their business? Niji Sabharwal:  Oh Man. Naber:  I know, I know, I nailed it. Niji Sabharwal:  Typical Brandon. Naber:  Haha, typical. So let's move to LinkedIn. So you hopped to LinkedIn at that point, how would you make the move, and what were you doing while you were there? And just run us through very quickly the jumps you had while you were there. And then I'll ask you a few questions about them. Niji Sabharwal:  Yeah. So, I was working in Berkeley Stamp & Engraving, I was living Oakland with a crazy ex-girlfriend at the time. I was actually at, my parents throw this epic Halloween party every year - my parents are pretty multicultural, and have a pretty eclectic, group of friends - and I was talking to this guy at the party. It was one of my mom's friends, boyfriends at the time, and he just joined a company called LinkedIn. And he was telling me about what LinkedIn was, and at the time LinkedIn was 200 people or less maybe, a small company based out of Mountain View. And I was honestly pretty drunk at the time, and we had a pretty long conversation that I probably only remember half of. And a couple of weeks later, he reached out to me about a potential job for LinkedIn in their Sales department. Yeah, completely out of the blue, and I was obviously looking for a better job to really launch my career, and given where the economy was at the time and the job opportunities that were available to me, it was a really great lead. So, after months of interviews, finally landed a job as a Sales Development Representative selling LinkedIn's Recruiting Solution. Naber:  Love it. And in your Sales Development days, one of my favorite parts about your story is you're relatively self-taught for your jump into Sales Operations and Strategy, learning some of the tools and systems. Talk a little bit that self learning, and then we'll get into your Sales Strategy and Ops role. Niji Sabharwal:  Yeah. So, started off at LinkedIn and in Sales, and we were...and it as the wild, wild West back then. I was a junior Sales rep. At that point Sales Development was kind of a new idea that was really pioneered by a couple of folks at LinkedIn, Brian Frank being being one of them. And the idea was to have a junior Sales function that would do a lot of the lead generation, and tee-ing up qualified leads for Account Executives to run the Sales cycle through. The idea was to, almost like factory line the Sales process, which seems totally obvious today, but at the time it was pretty revolutionary to have this function tee up Sales leads for Account Executives to close. And I think honestly at that point, the issue was that people didn't want to invest in junior Sales folks knowing that the average return on investment for an Account Executive would...industry standard was about eight to one. Meaning, if your business is run really solidly, you can expect to return $8 on every $1 that that you spend on your Account Executives. So you hired junior a Salesperson, you're not gonna get that return out of them. But, the revolutionary idea that turn in Sales Development was that if you can basically make that Account Executive that much more productive, by offloading all the prospecting and lead generation that is, I wouldn't say administrative, but less strategic than runninga full Sales cycle. you can improve those efficiency ratios. And that's really what landed with me, and making Sales Development what it is today. So, at that point, I was doing Sales and realizing that the processes we had in place were pretty inefficient. At the time I was hired, I was I think the fifth Sales Development rep at LinkedIn, and the Sales processes we had in place were all over the map. It was kind of like, whoever could provide the most leads wins, and that was kind of it. You were given a loose lead list, and we were given the opportunity obviously to sell into LinkedIn's subscribers, their members. So that was the raw tools we had available at the time, but there was no real process to how you go get those leads. So at the time I partnered up with our Salesforce Admin, this woman who probably taught me everything I know about Salesforce. And she howed me the ropes of how we can leverage Sales tools to make myself and the team more efficient. And at the end of the day, I wouldn't consider myself to be a type A personality, and as I don't really enjoy selling, I don't see myself doing that everyday, all day long. So I pitched the idea to my boss at the time, that I thought my skills would be best used in Sales Operations, leveraging Sales systems and Sales tools that we had to make the Sales reps that we have more effective. And that whole process was maybe two days to pitch the idea. And he was like, I totally buy into that, let's do it. And two days later I was now in Sales Operations, or the Sales Ops person. Naber:  And how long were you doing that role at LinkedIn? Niji Sabharwal:  Which role? Naber:  Well, you were in Sales Ops, and then you're leading teams after that. How long were you in Sales Ops at LinkedIn? Naber:  Yeah. So, I was doing Sales Dev for a couple months, then converted myself into the Sales Ops function. Grew that function out. We built the Sales Ops team and the Sales Development team out significantly over the next few years. We were providing structure, strategic planning, building Sales territories, Sales process, prospecting process, prospecting tools, and ended up expanding from just a small office in Mountain View to, nine global offices. And from when I took on the Sales Ops role to that point was probably about two years. And then, once we expanded into Asia, Australia, EMEA - the office in Ireland, I pitched to my boss at the time, a new boss, that I wanted to expand my skills, and take an opportunity in Europe to build out the Sales Operations team there. So I was fortunate enough to get the opportunity to move to Ireland to build out Sales Operations function, and my pitch was to bring the North American rigor to to EMEA. Naber:  Nice. Awesome. And how long were you doing that? And then, tell us about the next jump as well. Because you were there for a little bit, and then you moved back to San Francisco after that. So tell us about when you were in Ireland, how long you were there, and then tell us about the move back to San Francisco as well. Niji Sabharwal:  Yeah. So, when I moved to Ireland, that's where I met your pretty face. Built out the Sales Operations team there, and learned a ton about how this type of business was done in Europe. And specifically the challenges of operating with multi-languages, multiculture...you know, learning the hard fact that if you have a thick Spanish accent, and you're trying to sell into the UK, that you're not gonna have a lot of luck. Americans are easy, they'll buy from anybody. But learning how to navigate the European cultural differences, was actually the biggest learning for me at that time. Naber:  Niji, let's pause there for a minute. If someone's going to go into, either running global portions of Sales Operations, or put global portions of Sales, what's some advice you would have around the mindset they need to have expanding into Europe and starting to own some of those markets that you learned, and maybe some piece of advice you would give? Niji Sabharwal:  Yeah, I mean that is a great question. So every market is completely different. I mean, my experience has taught me that if you know how to sell SaaS in the US, that doesn't mean you know how to SaaS anywhere else. Understanding the markets, the cultural differences, the differences in languages and how things translate, and thinking you can scale something from a US market to other markets just because the idea makes sense is not all that that's involved. You need boots on the ground to really understand what's going on. I mean, think of India as an example. Everyone thinks that because of the population and the amount of money that is potentially made in India...it doesn't translate that easily. There's an insane amount of language, cultural, behavioral differences from market to market. Naber:  Nice one. That's great. All right, keep going. This is good. So, you're in Dublin and then you're working on some of these projects. These are some of the things you learned. You're about to make the move back to SF. What are you doing there? Niji Sabharwal:  Yeah, so I was considering...I was planning on doing a stint of...It was open-ended, I was planning on doing about a year in Europe, or a year in Ireland specifically. I was thinking about my next plan after I'd built the team out there, and I was looking at a role in London for one of LinkedIn's newer business units. But, kind of a tricky situation, before I moved to Ireland, actually right after I made a decision, I started dating this this woman knowing that I was moving to Ireland, it was an eight month timeframe. Because I had to basically build a transition plan, hire a replacement to lead the North America team. So I had an eight month ramp time before I was gonna move. And so, I met this woman who completely blew me away, and we started dating. And knowing that I was gonna move away, it was a tricky...a tough concept to deal with. We ended up breaking up right before I moved over to Ireland. And knowing that the long distance thing is challenging and best - I was 28 at the time? We figured that it was just not worth trying to keep going. But while I was there we stayed in touched, and I ended up having to make this tough decision where, I was going to potentially move to London for this role with the new business unit with LinkedIn, or I could move back to San Francisco and actually make a go at it with this woman. I ended up moving back to San Francisco and moving in with my now wife. It definitely worked out in the end. So came back to San Francisco with LinkedIn, moved in with the wife. At the time, we dated for three or four years before we actually got married. But, I was back in San Francisco for about six months, and I was presented with an opportunity to work in a new startup in the HR technology space, a start up called Zenefits. Naber:  Yeah. Awesome. Awesome. So, let's walk through Zenefits quickly - some of the roles that you had...actually let's pause there for a minute. So while you were at LinkedIn, and while you're at Zenefits, one of the things you were known for is building Sales Operations functions, and having an understanding for all the different pieces involved in that. If someone's going to be building out their Sales Ops and Sales Strategy function, what's a framework that they should be using as they're thinking about the different pieces involved, as well as where to start and the phases that they'll go through in order to build that out? Niji Sabharwal:  Yeah, that's a good one. So, first and foremost, as you start thinking about Sales Strategy and Operations, the first question you've got to answer is what is what is the financial plan, or what is the go to market plan? So I think where a lot of folks get it wrong, is they have a product market fit that makes sense. They have a market that they know has demand, but the amount of demand is completely up to what the CEO's telling you exists. So, one of the key functions that Sales Strategy and Operations play is the ability to quantify that demand, and really put a plan together where you can really make the rubber meet the road. In taking...at an early stage you're not going to have a ton of metrics that you can really pressure test. But, good Sales Ops folks will take the data that you do have, identify the lead volume that you've been getting across the different channels, and put a strategic plan together, a go-to-market plan that quantifies that demand. And we'll extrapolate by channel what your conversion rates are going to look like, should look like. What are good industry benchmarks for those conversion rates? And then taking your Sales capacity, the AE's and Sales Development reps that you're going to hire, based on the amount of revenue that that they're gonna bring in - which is a function of the amount of leads, times the conversion rate, times your average selling price to get to a month over month extrapolation of what your business can actually do, versus just putting your finger to the wind on yeah, I think we could turn this into a hundred million dollar business overnight. Naber:  Okay. So that's the first step. And what are you doing after that? Niji Sabharwal:  So, I would say the core pillars to a Sales Operations team are going to be...Sales systems and the core Sales tools that the Sales team is going need, a function for that...and these functions can be carried by one or one or more people. I think over time you're gonna start to specialize these functions, but right off the bat you're probably going to have one to three people wearing a lot of hats. So Sales Tools & Sales Systems is going to be a pretty core functionality that you're going to wanna to knock out right up front. Second is going to be the strategic planning and analysis function, where you're going to want to want somebody that can think strategically about where the business is going, a solid partner with the Sales lead to understand what's possible and the demand that's out there. And then reporting and analytics. That's a really core function that you're gonna want to keep in place. So somebody that can set the metrics, based on that go to market plan, set the metrics, and provide the visibility to leadership team, and on an operational basis to the Sales team, so that they have a true north. I can't tell you the amount of businesses that I've seen that can't even tell you how much revenue they're generating every month. That's an enormous problem. And there are so many level setting activities I've seen where, I went through this Zenefits a few times, where we didn't set the right measurement capabilities in our system to be able to accurately represent how much revenue is coming in. Because as Zenefits was mostly funded by insurance commissions, and insurance commissions are...you don't fully realize them until month two or month three after you sold the deal. So when you have a situation where the company's in crazy hyper growth, if you can't fully realize those revenues until month three, you could be in a ton of trouble. So having measurements in place and having that true North is absolutely critical, and putting as much emphasis on that as you can. Naber:  Nice. Love it. And so let's go through each one of those things for a second. So you said systems and tools. If I'm going through systems and tools, and building out a SaaS Sales function, what should I be thinking about for the best practices for one, the person that should be doing that, and two, the types of systems and tools that I should putting in place? And your evolution for how that's gonna evolve over time, what you need to be good at in order to get that right? Niji Sabharwal:  Yeah. So that's not an easy question to answer. I think depending on the business, it, I'll have completely different answers. But as a general rule, experience is key. So trying to try to put somebody that has used Salesforce in the past...If you're an early stage company, generally the CEO or Head of Sales doesn't quite appreciate the importance of systems and tools up front. And they will put in place the person who they think has the most exposure to systems. So, putting somebody in place that has used Salesforce in the past, and they're not quite sure what to, what to do with them in that role, is probably the worst idea you can have. So if you're planning on building a business for scale, you're gonna want to put somebody who has war scars and has seen what good looks like, seen what bad looks like. You're gonna want to put that person in the role. And I've realized that by saying this I wouldn't be sitting where I am today because I wouldn't have gotten that opportunity. But, had I been in a decision making role, I never would have put myself into the role that LinkedIn put me into. Naber:  Okay. That makes sense. And what are some of the things that both LinkedIn and Zenefits are really good at from a systems and tools perspective? And maybe you can give a couple of examples. Niji Sabharwal:  Yeah. So I mean, LinkedIn was a pretty special case. They were a picture perfect example of what good looks like. Naber:  Yeah, describe that. Naber:  They had a very seasoned leadership team. As far as tech companies go, most tech companies do not start with a seasoned leadership team. If you look at the folks that were in charge of making decisions at the time at at LinkedIn, at the very beginning of it's hyper growth, all those guys knew exactly what the fuck they were doing before. They've done this before. They had a very clear vision. They didn't come up to off with with a cool idea, and then got the people that were closest to them to tell them with that. They were very thoughtful about how they put that leadership team together, and scaled the company, and really came up with that. They were true disruptors. Where, I think a lot of companies, like Zenefits which just grew way too quickly without thinking through all the systems and support that was needed to scale a company at the rate that both LinkedIn and Zenefits scaled at, I think that was probably the biggest difference between those two. Naber:  What are some of the mistakes, whether it's specifically or just generally, that most of those types of teams that either grow too fast, and don't take the appropriate amount of account for systems and tools, or they just get it wrong - what are some of the landmines you can step on? Niji Sabharwal:  Yeah, I'd say the biggest thing is doing fewer things better. And that was something that LinkedIn has imprinted on me, is don't get distracted by all the shiny stuff along the way, and focus on the things that are really going to be core. And if you can't nail on those things, don't do anything else. At Zenefits I was just as much a blame as anyone else for this, it was really easy to get distracted by all the shiny stuff along the way, and we tried to do everything for everyone. And that's not a recipe for success. Naber:  Fewer things done better. Focus. Love it. All right, let's hop into...you had mentioned resource planning and analysis. So let's talk about that. What's output, and what's the goal of resource planning analysis? Walk us through that process where you can give us a vision into how you think about going about the process of resource planning, and what the purpose of it is, and what the best case scenario is with your output? Niji Sabharwal:  Yeah. So I mean, I'm assuming the question is specifically for the Sales function, and building out the go to market plan from a Sales capacity perspective. So resource planning is always a pretty tough one, especially when you don't have a lot of data to go off of. So if you're talking about building a financial plan for the next year, when you've had three years under your belt, it's a lot easier to straight line. Naber:  Let's, maybe we should do some examples at LinkedIn. What would that process look like? And then at Zenefits ,differently, what would that process look like? Niji Sabharwal:  Yeah, so at at LinkedIn I was fortunate enough to be learning from a ton of really experienced folks and getting to take what they built and build on that. At Zenefits, we were doing everything from scratch, and the straight line was insane. It wasn't a straight line. It was an exponential curve where...when I joined Zenefits, the year prior we did just under 2 million revenue. And the year I joined we did 10 million. And plan for the next year was 100 million. So it was just absolute bananas, bananas growth. So we were operating with very little data, and almost, with a gun to the head, how much can we do if we really squeeze as much juice out of the lemon as possible. So yeah, that that planning process was...the best way to describe it was we would take all the different Sales channels that would provide fruit throughout that year. So the key ones I would zero in on are inbound leads - so how much coming Marketing, from both word of mouth, our SEM spend, basically all the contact us leads that we get from our website, chat leads we get from from the website, all in the one bucket. Second would be events - so webinars, trade shows, in person events, those kind of things. That would be our events bucket. And then content. So, we would generate white papers, data sheets, we would try to circulate them through every avenue that we could. And that would make up our requested content bucket. One more I would call out is email. So cold Marketing emails would be the fourth bucket. And that was a really important one at Zenefits, especially as we had one of the most ingenious email marketers, probably on the planet, at the helm of the ship that point. So, we took those four different channels and figured out, okay, how much can we squeeze out of those channels, how many leads, given the size of the market? So we did a total addressable market sizing exercise, and understood that okay, there's 8 million small businesses in the US that fit our demographic. How many do we think we can actually go get, and how many are within the general confines of what makes sense for our targeted demographic. Meaning, we wouldn't consider businesses that don't have email addresses or basic things like that wouldn't make them a good candidate for a technology solution. And that was basically our addressable market. And we figured, okay, well let's say we can get there in the next 10 years. So we would take all the different Sales channels that we have, based on the conversion rates that we knew we can get from those channels, and looked at both the costs and the resources that were needed against each channel to generate those leads. And that would be covered in the cost section in the analysis. And on the capacity side, we would figure out, okay, how many, for example, Sales Development reps who we need to qualify a hundred leads. And based on the conversion rates that we knew across the channel, how many of those leads would turn into wins. And so we would, we would take that analysis of total leads by channel, and have...there's a lot of art and science to this stuff. So it's not always going to be an equation where the left side equals the right. So we would take a total amount of leads that we generate by channel, and figure out, okay, how many, Sales Development reps do we need to generate those leads or even qualify those leads. And then how many Account Executives do we need to be on the other side to, to handle those leads. And what we would do to calculate the amount of Account Executives, which I think was one of the biggest faults to original model, was assuming that, okay, how many hours does an encounter executive have in a day to qualify these leads? And we were thinking okay, well it's not just new leads are qualifying, but how much of their day are they going to spend on the second touch, third touch, fourth charge of their current pipeline. So we, generally in that equation a lot of companies will underestimate the time it takes to actually follow up with the Sales cycle. And just think that you should probably spend most of your time on new leads versus following-up on old pipeline, which is absolutely the wrong way to do it. So a good way to think about it is, okay, a third of your time should be spent on new leads, two-thirds should be spent on following up with the existing pipeline. That's obviously a very peanut butter spread metric. And based on whatever that time spend allocation ratio is, you could figure out, okay, how many new leads can an Account Executive actually handle, based on Sales cycles and everything else. So, taking, taking that equation, you can figure out, okay, this is how many leads can go through the system. This is how much capacity each AE can take, and this is how many Sales Development reps we're going to need to support them. And then you play with both the inputs, mostly the inputs, to figure out, okay, at what point do we hit a breaking point in the system, where either you get diminishing returns by generating more leads...it costs you more money to actually generate those leads than it does to put numbers on the scoreboard. And so that was a very long winded way to answer that but yeah, that makes sense? Naber:  Yeah, of course. That wasn't long winded. It's a lot of detail, which is exactly, what we're looking for. It's great. I was actually hoping you go into some detail because your mind is brilliant, and I I'm glad that we got to see a little bit more into it. Let's say you go through that process, you come over with that Strategy, you've got your numbers, you got your Head count plans, you put the budget against it, you're going to deploy the Strategy next. Then you talked about reporting, metrics, and measurement. So what types of reports, or reporting, or metrics are you building out for each different type of stakeholder in the organization? So Marketing, Sales, maybe C-level, and then subsequently water falling down into management or director level, and maybe even down to rep level, but probably not. What sort of reports, metrics, and measurement are you putting in place, and how do you think about doing that? Niji Sabharwal:  Yeah, so, the way I usually think reports, and dashboards, and KPIs is leading and lagging indicators. So lagging indicators are pretty straight forward. I'm thinking okay, what was your conversion rate over this period of time? What was your win rate? What your ACV or average selling price? Those things can easily be calculated, based on the results that you see. I think what's a lot more interesting...Obviously those are going to be the key, really the KPIs that you want to put in place that you can measure business against. And those are the gonna be the KPIs that are built into your go to market model. So that if you're starting to miss on certain KPI's - conversion rate, win rate, ACV - you're gonna start to tend to see those results, on the scoreboard very quickly. But, by the time you start to see the revenue dip below where the plan is, you're way too late. So one of the keys is figuring out what those leading indicators are, so that you can suss out problems, and build almost like an early warning system, before it's way too late. What will tend to happen is...let's say your Marketing machine is starting to either hit its point of diminishing returns, or the messaging is just not landing anymore, or there's a new competitor on the market that your old demand, or the demand that used to get, is starting to go into this other competitor. By the time that you know that that lead, which would usually turn into a qualified lead that would be brought into a Sales cycle by an AE that would eventually close, by the time that that lagging indicator starts to go down, depending on what type of businesses it is this could be anywhere from 30 days to 180 days...By the time you figure out that that your revenue is going down, your 180 days too late to solving the problem. So, really understanding what those lagging indicators are and understand that you should be really fucking concerned if you're used to seeing, let's say, 3000 inbound leads, against that one channel of four channels for inbound leads. If you start to see that number go down by 10%, and the next month go down by another 10%, you should be really, really worried and you should address that right up front. And the only way you're going to do that is by having really good reporting and analytics against this. And the sophistication, or the support by leadership that, if you see that metric go down that you can call fire, and go address it right away. Or it's just having your leadership team say, hey, the numbers look good today. we're closing as much revenue, why should we be worried? Naber:  Yeah. All that makes tons of sense. Thanks so much for joining on the detail. And you just raised one of the super powers I believe that you have, is gaining the trust to be able to yell fire, and people listen, and act. How would you suggest, or maybe a framework you think about, or maybe it's a mindset you have, on how do you build that trust so that when you say fire people listen, take it seriously, as well as act on it? Niji Sabharwal:  To be honest, I would say that is probably one of my weak points. There's a politics to this that I've never been able to master. And I think that's actually one of the key things that people in my position need to figure out, is how to do better is articulate points in a way that will resonate with leadership team. When I see that kind of stuff, I see the numbers, I understand them probably...a lot of Sales Ops folks will understand them most better than most people will. And I will see a fire, and I'll yell fire, and I'll show them the numbers, but that's never enough, right. If you're gonna yell fire, there's going to be significant resources behind the firefighting effort, and potentially to scare to the rest of the company, it's not a very popular idea. So understanding how important the politics side of it is and the optic side of it is actually, something that shouldn't be undervalued. So building, upfront, way in advance from day one in the job, build the best relationship with leadership team, from the CEO to the VP of Sales, to the CMO, whomever, building those relationships up front there are absolutely critical. And that becomes really challenging, especially when if you have...In Zenefits case, leadership turning over over, every year, every two years...When you're at a company that has leadership changes more than one or two times, it's really easy to say okay, well there's gonna be somebody else. It's not worth the time to build those relationships. But it always is. Having that credibility, and the trust in leadership team's absolutely critical, regardless if you think there's going to be a new guy coming soon or new gal. Naber:  Yup. Yup. Got It. Awesome. And you hinted at it a little bit there. I've got just two more topics to talk about, and then we'll wrap. Thanks so much for your time. Actually maybe three, I think it's three. So the first one is, you hinted a little bit there, stakeholder management. When you think about stakeholder management, how do you manage stakeholders from Sales, differently than you do from Marketing, differently than you do from Eng and Product, etc? I mean, do you have a general thought process where, from a Sales Ops perspective this is what's important to Sales, from a Sales Ops perspective this is what's important to Marketing, and product and eng, etc? Niji Sabharwal:  Yeah, that's a really good one. So, yeah, I think the best way to think about it is to meet them where they are. The type of character, the type of person you're gonna deal with from Head of the Technical team, to a Head of Sales, to Head of Marketing, to a Head of Customer Support. Those profiles are enormously different, right? People are enormously different, right? And so having as much empathy, and I would say empathy is the key key thing that you should be thinking about, is figuring out what's important to them and making whatever you're trying to accomplish, aligning your vision with theirs. Can't stress that more. Naber:  Yeah. Let's look at an example. So if I'm going to Sales, what's your head space when you're going to someone in Sales, and we'll go through each example. Niji Sabharwal:  The number. Convincing your Head of Sales, I mean obviously this is very hypotheticaland not all situation here align up to this, but convincing your Head of Sales that what you're trying to do is going to provide the business value that's going to get them to their number. If it's Support, just getting them to understand that what you're trying to do in that moment is going to improve user experience, customer experience, and ultimately provide a better end to end customer customer journey. Naber:  Nice one. And what about Product and Eng, you've done a bunch of projects between liaising between Sales, and Marketing, and Product and Eng. What are some of the things that you need to think about in Sales Ops, Sales Strategy, Sales Tools, Systems, as you're having those types of conversations? Niji Sabharwal:  That's a good one. So, I mean, I would say it'd be very similar to, trying to hit on the same points as what would be important to, a CRO or Head of Sales, as well as, speaking to customer experience, and ultimately,customer retention. Interfacing with with CTO's, and Head of Product, Heads of Product can always be pretty challenging because they can have a much different vision, and be motivated by different motivations than, just, just trying to optimize profits. That makes sense? Naber:  Yeah, absolutely. How have you, any, do you have one or two tips on how to navigate that? Niji Sabharwal:  So yeah, this might sound a little cheesy, but honestly, just building relationships with those folks that our real. Having a beer with them, having lunch with them, having more personal connections with those folks, goes a really, really long way. Not trying to sound you're trying to buy their affection, but, that honestly to me has been the best way to actually navigate those situations, building personal relationships with them so that they can, they can trust where you're coming from. I mean, I'm assuming you are trustworthy person. Naber:  Fair enough. That's great detail. Thank you. So you're at LinkedIn, one of the fastest growing companies ever. You're in Sales Ops and Strategy. Then you move to Zenefits, also one of the fastest growing companies of all time. Two more things that I see as a bridge or a commonality between those two things. One is, something you had to do often. And the second one is something that they did as one of their, I think core competencies did really well. The first one is, you've had to sell a vision to a group very often. And my understanding, it's one of your fortes, and one of your superpowers. So how do you think about going about doing that? Getting people to, the right place with the business case, getting people to act, doing the right thing for the business based on the vision that you have, and even if it's not necessarily one of the things that they want to do, or if it's not necessarily within the scope of the way that they see things in their vision? Niji Sabharwal:  Yeah, I mean, that's a million dollar question. Naber:  More than that. Billion dollar question somewhat. Niji Sabharwal:  I'd say really thinking about your, wherever you're selling this vision to, making a shared vision. And that's really the key is understanding your audience, where they're coming from, and going back to the empathy issue, where you need to connect with them on a level where it means something to them. And it sounds super obvious, but tailoring that message to connect with them on a level that makes sense for their role and what they're trying to achieve. It's really hard to do obviously when you're, when you're pitching big business direction change for example, to the leadership team, where you have representatives from each side of the business. But thinking through how, not that you have to pretend that or change the mission or the initiative that you're pitching, but making it resonate with all the folks that are in the room, or all the folks that are going to be making this decision. And that's absolutely key. Naber:  Right. Awesome. And then do you have a process you go about doing that? To make sure that it's a vision. Do you have a checkbox list of things that you check off in your head, or maybe a couple of steps that you take in order to do that? Niji Sabharwal:  Yeah, so it really depends on the environment, the company. I think an easy to go to would be, thinking about the company's mission statement, or the company's key values. LinkedIn was really great about this where, every employee can on command recite the company's mission and value statements, at any given point. Even as those evolved over time. So those are really easy to go to's, where you can get everyone rallied behind that initiative, if you're able to hit on those values. Otherwise, thinking through, just to folks that are going to be in that room are the folks that you really need to get to, thinking about what is what is relevant to them in that moment or what is relevant to them, for that specific initiative. Naber:  Yeah. Nice one. Okay. Last topic, Niji, and and then we'll round it out with two rapid fire questions. So last topic is building an Inbound Engine. You've had to do this at LinkedIn with a significant amount of sophistication. You have to do this to build massive scale into Zenefits growth model. The way to operationalize a lot of this growth, is to make sure that you have a very sophisticated Inbound Engine. What are the steps you go about in order to build that out and make sure it's sophisticated enough from a Sales Ops and Strategy perspective? Niji Sabharwal:  Yeah, so there are so many tools out there today that that make this stuff a lot easier, as far as systems go. But I'd say the most important piece of operationalizing it would be speed to lead. So figuring out speed to lead. So figuring out whatever you need to do to minimize the time between once somebody raises their hand or submits an inquiry, to getting back to them. So, at LinkedIn, the process was somebody would submit a Contact Us form. We would usually respond within 48 hours. So pretty typical to a lot of Sales functions. But what we we figured out very quickly is that the inbound lead channel is by far the highest converting channel. Somebody raised their hand saying, I want something, give it to them. Why wouldn't you? And so providing as many those touch points as possible. Chats a really great example. Chat was extremely valuable when we launched at LinkedIn. When we launched it at Zenefits, same deal, it was gangbusters. If you're able to connect with your buyers, in a place where they're coming to you, take advantage of that in every way that you can. So I would say that that would probably be the number one thing I would think in operationalising and the inbound channel. Speed to lead. One more thing I would add there actually is...Speed to lead and also just making it stupid easy for people to come to you. If you have a contact us form that has 10 fields to fill out, you're gonna have a lot less people coming to you. If you have somebody coming to you where you just ask the basic question, give me your phone number, I'll call you back. You're going optimize conversion rates with the ease to get to you. Naber:  Hey everybody, thanks so much for listening. If you appreciated and enjoyed the episode, go aHead and make a comment on the post for the episode on LinkedIn. If you love The Naberhood Podcast, we'd love for you to subscribe, rate, and give us a five star review on iTunes. Until next time - go get it.

Guest: Gordon Tobin - Vice President, Commercial Sales @G2 (Formerly @Headspace, @LinkedIn) Guest Background: Gordon Tobin is the Vice President, Commercial Sales at G2. Prior to joining G2, Gordong was the Director of Enterprise Sales at Headspace. Before joining Headspace, Gordon was at LinkedIn for about nine years. He had six roles in four different offices spanning three different continents. Two of his most recent roles were, one is the Global Head of the Business Leadership Program, and most recently he was a sales leader in the Sales Solutions Business. About a year and a half after Gordon joined LinkedIn, they IPO'd in 2011, and then they were purchased by Microsoft for $27 billion in 2016. Gordon is based in San Francisco, California, originally from Dublin, Ireland. Guest Links: LinkedIn Episode Summary: In this episode, we cover: - The Prioritization, Mindset and Methodology of Building Your Culture Standard (Set, Demo, Hold) - The Talent Management Mindset - Interview, Hire, Coach - Leadership Cadence - Priorities, Time Spend, Meetings - Best Practices for Stakeholder Management   Full Interview Transcript: Naber:  Hello friends around the world. My name is Brandon Naber. Welcome to the Naberhood, where we have switched on, fun discussions with some of the most brilliant, successful, experienced, talented and highly skilled Sales and Marketing minds on the planet, from the world's fastest growing companies. Enjoy! Naber:  Hey there, team. Today we have my good buddy Gordon Tobin on the show out of San Francisco, California, originally from Dublin, Ireland. Gordon is the Director of Enterprise Sales at Headspace. Headspace has a $320 million valuation, they've raised $75 million in capital. Before joining Headspace, Gordon was at LinkedIn for about nine years. He had six roles in four different offices spanning three different continents. Two of his most recent roles were, one is the Global Head of the Business Leadership Program, and most recently he was a sales leader in the Sales Solutions Business. About a year and a half after Gordon joined LinkedIn, they IPO'd in 2011, and then they were purchased by Microsoft for $27 billion in 2016. Naber:  Gordon Tobin, awesome to have you on the show. Very privileged. Gordon Tobin:  The pleasure is all mine. The pleasure is all mine, I can assure you. Naber:  Cheers Buddy. The pleasantries are not just surface level, one of my favorite people. So what I want to do today is run through a bunch of different stuff. One of the more insightful business minds I've been around, had the privilege to work with, both on a few different projects, but also observe from both close and afar. What I want to do is probably start going through a little bit of your background, your personal journey. You've got a really cool, interesting family background. You've been all over the world, traveled all over the world. I've got an insert in here where one of the conversations you and I had long time ago helped change my life for the better, which is great. And we'll talk about all that stuff, but why don't we start maybe five, seven minutes around what Gordon Tobin was growing up. Maybe what you were like growing up as a kid, in school, then we can get into some interesting things you were interested in, or some jobs you had, etc. Gordon Tobin:  Yeah, for sure, and thanks again for having me on. I think, where should I start? Dickens - "I Am Born."? I think, for me the first, well my early memories, if you want to go back that far, are very, very happy ones up until about the age of about six or seven. Six or seven, won't go into all the drama, but parents parted ways, things financially didn't go so good, and I think at that age, very early on, I had to learn how to be self reliant, and self sufficient, and also had to learn how to adjust quite a bit because there was a lot of change in my life, because of the personal circumstances outside of my control over the next 10 years. So if I was in characterized Gordon, up to seven as very happy go lucky little child, from seven to 17, 18, I was a wild child, not a great academic...And so for all the folks who maybe didn't get an a plus plus in applied mathematics or economics, I can assure you that that's not the be all and end all. Whilst I was not a great academic, I think I thoroughly enjoyed my education. I had so much fun in school, when I chose to attend. And I think the turning point for me, was when I had just finished up the equivalent of my leaving cert in Ireland - by the way, I'm an Irishman, so if there's a difference between what you you hear and what you see on my LinkedIn profile, it's because my mother is from Trinidad and Tobago, which I'll touch on in a minute. I think for me, at 17, it was a turning point where I could have gone down one road, which was not a good one. That was the road of I have not achieved academically, I will go into or down a trajectory or a path that's not the most bright or inspiring. Or I could double down and really try, for the first time in my life, hard at studying and then just putting in my effort. And I probably, retrospectively looking back at it, put in about 80% effort, did pretty good. Got into the second best university, best I should like to say, but apparently according to rankings is number two, in the country, University College Dublin, studied English and Sociology, then I did a Master's there in Business. And what was a big turning point for me there was growing up, particularly during that turbulent period, being intellectual or academic or anything of the kind was not something that was celebrated. As a matter of fact, quite the opposite. And so I was a closet reader and intellectual. I read every single girls children's book there is because up until the period of seven we had a big library of girls children's books, and then after seven we didn't buy too many more books. Like I read every Enid Blyton - The Famous Five, The Adventures of Babysitting Club - I could tell you them all. Everything in the shop. And I used to remember reading veraciously under my covers. But the reason why I say this is because I hit that until I was 17 when I got to University, suddenly education was something to be celebrated. Suddenly people were not talking about jobs, they were talking in the context of a career, and they were talking about meaning and purpose. And the upbringing I had post-seven years old was very much, a little bit further down the Maslow hierarchy of needs, as far as just making sure the ship was steady. And so it opened up a whole new world for me. And after some time there I went, did some travel around the world is, which I think you might be aware. I lived in a 10 for nine months in Australia. I surfed all throughout the worlds, from right through Southeast Asia, Australia. I lived in a commune, I was in New Zealand, I was in the States, I was in Central America. Came home 2008, big recession, Lehmann brothers failed around that time, you might remember, Ireland fell off the side of a cliff, and lucky little old me I got plucked out of that recession by what was at the time a little known start up called LinkedIn. I was employee number six in the Dublin office. I think they're are like two and a half thousand now or something. So, I won the lottery ticket, and I was invested in by that company, and over the next eight and a half years, I spent time in Dublin and moved down to Australia. I opened offices there. I came to San Francisco, started-up that training program globally for all of our graduates. And then went back in around the Sales Solutions business for a few years. And then most recently to present day, in my last six months I'm in my new role leading Sales at Headspace, which is a mindfulness meditation app company. So, I'll pause there. That's the brief history of time. Hopefully that was brief enough and not two verbose, but gives you kind of a flavour for my journey. Naber:  Mate, that was great. That's great. And we'll hop through a few of those jumps you made both before LinkedIn, at LinkedIn, afterwards at Headspace. Headspace, $320 million valuation, $75 million raised, a rocket ship, really fast growing, incredible product-driven company, which is really cool. LinkedIn of course, $27 billion acquisition by Microsoft - you there very early. I was actually just looking at a photo that I saw, somehow I found this on Facebook, photo of Bob Moody taking a picture, it was eight and a half years ago of you and Adrian wrapping shoe boxes... Gordon Tobin:  Oh yes... that was a a holiday time thing. But that was back in the day when we were literally taking our laptops out of their boxes and setting them up ourselves, we didn't have IT at LinkedIn those days, if you can believe it. Naber:  I do believe it. A tech company not having IT, incredible. But the caption was hilarious, "Gordon and Adrian wrapping shoe boxes. Non-revenue generating activity". I thought that was hilarious. Anyways, the point is really, really early getting onto the LinkedIn ship, and lucky we both were...Yeah. So cool. Such a cool ride and then, and then your jump to Headspace - very, very smart move as well. We'll talk about that in a little bit. So, along the way, you've made a couple of jumps. So let's talk first about your...You just got back from living in a tent for a long time, I think Gordon Tobin:  Yeah man, a commune. Naber:  Amazing. We're going to talk about that a little bit later. But was your first role BOA - Bank of America, when you came back. Gordon Tobin:  Yeah, yeah. Yes it was... Naber:  Haha. Give me a short blurb on what you're doing at Bank of America (BOA). Gordon Tobin:  Yeah. I was in collections for a delinquent credit card debts, I was a collections agent. Naber:  Dream job, dream job. Gordon Tobin:  Of course. And then your primary, that was your primary remit. Your secondary remit was to, and this is part of I was an unwitting cog in a larger wheel, that was the securitization of debt against people's properties. So basically making sure that their credit card that was secured against their home and if they didn't pay their debt, they would lose their home. Naber:  Compounding effects. Compounding. Gordon Tobin:  Yeah. And I mean, we all know where that led, 10, 11 years ago. But, from my point of view, the day-to-day actually was really good because I sat with a headset for nine hours, the thing we go "bunggg", a bunch of notes would pop up in front of me telling me what the person's situation was credit-wise, and what we wanted to do. And I would deal nine hours a day straight, a half hour break, in some pretty difficult conversations. And I learned how to be compassionate. I learned how to really listen and not wait to but-in while the other person is speaking. And I learned how to be resilient and that kind of environment. And I think actually working there and having some tough experiences early in life really built in me a shield of spirit that has protected me from the things that have happened throughout my life, and that has just led me to relate to those experiences differently and construct meaning around them in a positive way. Naber:  I think it's both apparent professionally and personally and when anyone spends more than one minute with you, which is I think it's an amazing testament. Very cool. Okay. So from BOA you moved to Nomads World Hotels and you lived in Byron Bay in Australia for six months, and quote unquote on your LinkedIn profile, possibly the most fun job ever. What was your favorite part about that job? Gordon Tobin:  The sense of community. There was 150 of us. We woke up, we shared our resources, we surfed together in the morning, the early morning, catching the most beautiful glassy waves. The backdrop was tropical jungle, one of the most beautiful beach breaks in Australia. And we would come back, we'd eat together, we'd work in the hostile. I'm a salesperson. So we'd find ways to make money, think broadly. We tell anything we could from cold cans of coke on the beach to whatever we could. But I think it was that sense that we were all pulling together in unison in pursuit of a common purpose, which was really a community that was based on nothing else other than looking at it for your fellow brother or sister and making sure they were well taken care of. And we did that through surfing. We did it through music and we did it through breaking bread together. Meal time was a very important time where we pool our resources, to come up with the best meal possible. And for me it was just amazing. I worked front of house at the hostels so I knew everybody nearby. And then a small part of my job, I think you might read on my profile was removing poisonous snakes occasionally when they came into the hostel. Naber:  That's so scary. Brown Snakes are no joke. Gordon Tobin:  Yeah, snake capturing...So if the whole sales things doesn't work out, I do have a little bit of experience there, so don't forget that if you're watching this podcast you can find me. Naber:  Haha, so funny that I pulled the headphone jack out of my headphones. Can you hear me okay? Gordon Tobin:  Ha, yeah, I've gotcha. Naber:  That was at a Arts Factory, in Byron? Gordon Tobin:  Yeah, the Arts Factory in Byron, which I think most people who've gone up the east coast of Australia will have heard of it, if not stayed there. Naber:  It's a high traffic place. Okay, so you left there...What kind of, what music are you listening to at that point? You made a passing comment, but I'm, I'm interested. You said that music was connecting you. Gordon Tobin:  Yeah, primarily acoustic. So I play guitar. I brought the guitar with me, and that was a big part of what we did together. Actually, I neglected to mention as a community we would just make music together. So I don't actually learn songs. My brain is not wired that way. I don't have the intelligence to do it, but I can make stuff up as I go along. And so, there's a few people in there and I don't know if you've ever had the experience of just jamming with people, and some people you can just, you start playing and they start playing along, and it's it clicks. And those people were there. And so, there was a lot of music, a lot of guitar playing going on there as well. That was a big part of our experience. And still a big part of my life to this day. Naber:  Do you play by ear? You don't read music...you play by ear? Gordon Tobin:  Well, no, I can, I mean I can barely read upside down tabs. And actually, to be honest with you Brandon, I don't make, I don't to like to learn songs. I'm what I would call a bedroom player. I sit in the room, and I make stuff up. Or I sit in the garden, and I make stuff up as I'm going along. And I almost get into a trance-like meditative state, where I forget how much time is going by, and I suddenly look up at us two hours, 90 minutes, or maybe half an hour, but it's a very therapeutic, private thing that the introvert in of me loves to do. Naber:  Really cool. We're jumping ahead here, but would you view that as a form of meditation? Gordon Tobin:  So I think, yes it can. It's a definitely a meditative practice depending on the state of mind. I mean, meditation is really just a tool to be more mindful of what you're doing in your life, and to be more present in what you're doing in your life. And so anything that requires or summons your full attention and brings you into what some people might call a flow state, or where all your Gamma, Theta, Alpha brainwaves are going in straight lines toward one thing. That's a beautiful place to be in. and I find I get close to that place either through the act of meditation itself or things like playing the guitar. Guitar's actually probably the closest after meditation, in terms of getting me to a more mindful place...in my own mind and remaining somewhat in control of it. Naber:  Very cool. Very cool. And then, after that you went travelling for probably another six months or so, after you were in Byron? Gordon Tobin:  Yes, so after Byron, hit the road. We went up the entire East Coast of Australia. Then we went...we met a bunch of people in Byron, so the people we met with said come stay with us. So for the latter half of the six months we just couch surfed, and surfed literally, so double surfing going on - got a combo in...And we went up the East Coast, went all through Queensland. Got up...Did Frasier Island, did the Whitsunday Islands, all that stuff - which is, by the way, if you haven't been, one of the most aesthetically beautiful places on earth. Anybody who listens to this, I would strongly recommend you take a visit there when you get a chance. Naber:  Gorgeous. Gordon Tobin:  Then I went to New Zealand, we have pals there. We surfed down there old school in much, much, much colder waters, in New Zealand as well. Then went from there to Los Angeles, spent time in Los Angeles and Culver City, of all places, backward and forward to Texas because I made a very good friend from Austin, while I was in Texas. And then we went straight down into Central America and continued surfing through Costa Rica, Nicaragua, and Panama as well. So pretty awesome. Naber:  Wow. What a journey. Gordon Tobin:  Yeah, I think that the funds ran out. My father was a little bit ill. He's much better, thank God now. But all the cosmic fingers, if you will, were pointing towards Ireland and returning home and that the year travel had served as purpose in terms of my wanderlust and what I was after. Naber:  Wow. Okay. So you came back, followed the cosmic signs, and came back to work as a recruitment consultant in Dublin. Tell us, give us, give us a minute on that. Gordon Tobin:  I'll give you a bit of back context first. So when I returned back from a year of travel, as I mentioned, in 2008 Lehman fails, I think it was October 17, if memory serves. But I came home to an Ireland that was deep in a very bad recession. So if you were male, between the age of 18 to 25 there was a 50% chance you were unemployed. I have a core group of friends who I've known since about six years old. And for a variety of reasons, I'd say seven of the ten are still long-term unemployed since then. Naber:  Wow. Gordon Tobin:  Yeah. And so there's a tale of two cities I think in the Irish economic resurgence depending on which side of that city you're on, North or South Naber:  I was going to say North or South, yeah. The Liffey. Gordon Tobin:  But for me, for the first six months I came back I was on social welfare. And it was a decision. It was coming from this primrose path of Dalliance of surfing, and all that good stuff I was talking about in communes to Ireland, gray, dreary. And also, a communal consciousness of...it was socially acceptable to, not give up, but to congregate with your other unemployed friends and ,drink beer or do whatever, and complain about what was going on. And I think after a few weeks of reacclimatizing to that situation, realizing that I did not going to social welfare once a week, picking up 117 euros and trying to make that stretch for my mom's house. And that was not something that I was going to tolerate. So in a previous life I boxed quite a bit, and then I decided I was going to get up every morning and getting a job was going to be my job. And so I get up, I train in the morning. I would spend several hours online, LinkedIn, lots of other places trying to find jobs and then I would go to the boxing club in the evening, as opposed to doing what other people were doing, which is the socially acceptable thing at that time which was to say, "The government messed up, and it was outside of our control. The whole country is going pitfall, so I'm going to follow that." And I'm not saying not to blow my own horn, I just made a conscious decision that I was not going to get into that mindset. And so I trained physically and mentally every day and went through some really hard times. There was 17 euros extra per month for the Internet so I could apply for jobs. And that was a real expense in our household, that my mother had complained to me about. And so for me it was the period before I went into recruitment was six months of welfare, and then when I went into recruitment, I'm trying to call people to let me work jobs that don't exist, while the whole country is being laid off. So really recruitment for me was, I'm first of all eternally grateful that they gave me that job and I learned a lot about talent, which maybe we'll touch on that a little bit. But that's where I really learned the value of resilience and also gratitude because even though that job was terribly difficult in a macro economic climate, that was the worst in the history since the start of the Irish State in 1929 and then the first draft of The Republic in 1931, I believe it was. Even for all those hardships that were part of that experience, I learned so much. And so then, I don't want to fast forward and ruin the end of the movie, but you go into a place LinkedIn and they started talking about things career and all that good stuff going on there. Culturally, for me that was a little bit of a walk in the park compared to what I had experienced in the previous few years of my life. Songs, surfing around Australia. Naber:  So, a quick question because I want to get into LinkedIn, but there's just - I mean, I wish we had 10 hours for this episode right now - so, how do you remind yourself of that experience on a daily, weekly, monthly basis now when your circumstances are vastly different from what they were back then? How do you make sure that you remind yourself, what's the mental process or peg that you put in your calendar, or whatever it is. How do you remind yourself of making sure that you're grateful, from going from where you were at that time to right now? Gordon Tobin:  Yeah. there's a few ways. One I'm engaged in, I'm a bit of a meditation guy, so I meditate four times a day. And part of that is a gratitude practice. Second thing is I've very strong connection to my roots back home. I've always felt an otherness because I'm unusual no matter where I am. Even at home, I'm slightly unusual, given my mixed race background. And, I also never want to forget where I came from, and what my family did, and the sacrifice we had, to make to get me to be on this point that you can just be on top of this podcast with you. And the last thing, and this is one that I learned at LinkedIn and even had some coaching on it this morning, is the ability to zoom out. When you are in the weeds in the problem, your mind can be a school-sized prison and inprisonment can be so total that the prisoner does not even know they're locked up. And that is a very dangerous place to be. But if you have the ability to zoom out and say, okay, my momentary struggle, trouble, or strife, or turbulence, or whatever's going on at that time, if you can zoom out and say, well look on the spectrum of things in the grand scheme of life that will happen to me - like getting married or a bereavement or all the big life events - where this really stack up on a unit sense against that? And if you zoom out far enough and you think about it, you're like actually not at all. In most cases, if I asked myself, am I going to care about this in the same visceral emotional way now in a year's time, the answer to that question is always no. And part of the reason for that is, and I don't want to belabour the point, but our default settings, they live in our own heads. And our own emotions are so immediate, so available, so urgent and felt they have to be dealt with in that moment so urgently. But the reality is they, like all things in life, are passing and transient. And so your ability to step back and observe those and let that process happen, and not become the emotion, but observe it and be curious and learn from it, can help from the resilience path and bring you through almost anything in life, in my opinion. We have a choice in terms of every construct meaning around our experience. If you're aware enough to make that choice and stop. Naber:  And everyone listening just reminded themselves of what I just said around - if your around Gordon for more than one minute, you realize this guy is enlightened and deep and amazing perspective. Gordon Tobin:  Thank you, I appreciate it. Naber:  So you jumped into LinkedIn at that time, and that means a whole lot of different things for you personally and professionally. When you jumped into LinkedIn, you had a whole lot of responsibility thrown at you from a sales, a new market perspective, a new boss and everything was young. As you grew up, as you grew up at LinkedIn, you met an enormous amount of fascinating people. And one of the things that LinkedIn is notorious for is building an incredible culture and hiring great people. If I'm thinking about the people that embody that and I'd to hear, talk about it, your very high on that list of people that I'd to hear. What are some of the frameworks or principles that you think about at both LinkedIn, that you took away...of a business that is just world-class at building culture, as you go into and as you're now in Headspace. How do you think about building cultures, especially as you're building new teams, taking over new teams? How do you think about that? What's the framework that you use in your mind? Gordon Tobin:  Yeah. So the framework that I use is one I've learned at LinkedIn. And so for me, culture and values, if you are...it's really actually a question about integrity. So there you will have a set of cultural tenants and values, and they are things that are statements of self, both your current self and your aspirational self. And it's also a set of guiding principles, in terms of how you will govern your actions and your decisions on a daily basis. And I think, particularly in a sales context, but anywhere, I think Peter Drucker might've, I'm paraphrasing, but says "culture eats strategy" for breakfast. It's so true. And for me, it's doing business through values. Just because we're in corporate America or corporate wherever you, you can run a really good business and you can also teach people really good human values. And the right way to do it with integrity and through honesty. And so for me in building that, when I came in to the team at Headspace, I asked them those questions. We sat down, we took a full day because I wanted them to understand how important cultural, the cultural bedrock of everything we do, how that affects everything. And so we took a full day where we white-boarded it out. I was like, who are we today? I don't know exactly exactly, you guys know better than I do. Tell me who we are. Tell me who we want to be, and then let's talk about some ideas that will govern actions and decisions. And so, I mean, there's a bunch of them. I could give you examples. At LinkedIn, one of the big ones was Members First. So we're always going to put the free member before we put our customers. Because without a healthy member ecosystem, you don't have a B2B business to build on your B2C ecosystem. And so every commercial decision was not made at the expense of compromising that value. And so when I say it's an integrity thing, it's a question of - there's a list of things that we believe to be true, in terms of our current state and who we want to be. And they are things we are not going to compromise on, even if that hurts us financially in the short term. And we have to have shared agreement on what those things are. And then they manifest day-to-day in different decisions that you make, often that conversation will come up, and I will actually think about the culture and the values we've created, and is there a culture or value tenant that can drive or help at least guide the decision making process? And that for me is key. If you don't have that stuff laid down, it's it's not a very nice recipe for a very tasty dish, we'll put it that way. Naber:  Nice. Good analogy. I've heard you talk about set, demo, and hold the culture from the perspective of how to apply this from a leadership, management, and ground-up perspective. What does that mean when you say set, demo, and hold? Gordon Tobin:  Yeah. So culture in a lot of companies can just be a didactic little parable that sits on a polished thing on a wall that people don't know that it is. An awareness of something is different than commitment to it. And so for me, it's, it all starts, everything from a cultural standpoint starts at the top. And so if I as a leader say that, precision in execution on something is important, or compassion in how we collaborate with our cross functional partners and some of the more complex deals we're involved with is important, and we expect folks to live by those things, you know. And so I think, if you don't have that common set of rules in place, it can be really difficult and challenging down the road to manage the business. But if you do have it in place, you're setting yourself up for the right foundation. But that is after talent, that's the starting point. Naber:  Got It. And how do you, how do you bring that into measuring engagement and performance based on culture? How does that proliferate throughout the organization, both from a leadership and management perspective, and then trickle down? Because you mentioned it's top down. Gordon Tobin:  Yeah. So I think, on the top down it's, to your point, I'll just use the parlance, set the standard, demonstrate the standard, hold others accountable. Whatever cultural tenants that we agree to, it starts with me, or the CEO, or whomever is setting the culture. But if she says x is important, she's got to live that, and she's got to demonstrate them. And she can't live it and demonstrate it, then she's not in a position to hold other people accountable to it. That's where I think I'd round-out that answer. I think on the second part, can you remind me of part B of the question? Naber:  Yeah, sure. So how are you making sure that that comes out when you're thinking about measuring engagement and measuring performance of people? And then how does it, how do you make sure that proliferates throughout the business through leadership and management as well as bottom up - acting that out? Gordon Tobin:  Yeah. So I think, from an engagement standpoint, it's rewarding those behaviors that are befitting the culture and helping perpetuate, and grow, an inculcate the culture. Naber:  Can you give me a couple of examples? Can you give me a couple of examples of that on, how that would happen? What's the setting, what are you saying? What you doing? Gordon Tobin:  I can give you a really good example, only came up yesterday. So someone who was quite junior-level, not junior, wrong word, but a little bit earlier in career we'll say, wrote a direct email to the executive staff pointing out some things that she felt we could be doing a better job on. And there's a value within Headspace that I really love, which is courageous heart, and it's having the ability to step up and speak your mind if something feels a bit weird, even if you don't fully understand it, just flag it and have the courage to do that. I think, this particular individual was very brave in doing that. And just because, it's a normal human social hierarchical thing to raise the flag on something that, it takes a lot of guts, and I had a huge amount of respect. And it was called out at the all hands as something to be celebrated. And I also think then there's rituals and celebration around that. And so how do you reward that? And I do it through our staff meetings. I do it through all hands. And so if people are living out the cultural tenants of the company, I call it out first actually ahead of the results, because I believe the results follow the culture. Naber:  Culture breeds results, result doesn't breed culture. It's not chicken and egg. Fully believe it. Okay. So that was gold. That was excellent. And thank you for the examples as well. Gordon Tobin:  Yeah, thanks for reminding me of part B of that question when I trailed off. Naber:  Yeah, no worries. No worries. I reminded myself after you asked. So, you had a lot of interesting cool, gigs at LinkedIn. You went from Sales Development where you're building pipeline, you were in Account Executive roles, you were in Team Lead roles and temporary management roles when were in Sales Development, then you moved to the account executive roles. You're in Dublin, you were in Perth, you moved to San Francisco leading Business Leadership Program there - which was an amazing global program that you had set up. And then ultimately moving into a sales leader role in Sales Solutions. during that time, you have both me, a lot of amazing people, interviewed a lot of amazing people, spoken to a lot of very, very smart, influential people, and hired a lot of people as well. Let's talk about talent. Let's talk about talent. So when you're thinking about hiring great teams and a set of, maybe a framework or a set of principles you use as you're going through that process, how does that play itself out for you? What are the, what's the framework? What are the set of principles that you use when you think about making sure you bring the right person in, engage that person, and retained them? Gordon Tobin:  Well, let me say this first. If there's anything that anybody takes away from this podcast that talent should be the most important thing you're always thinking about it in your business. No matter if your CEO or Sales Dev Rep, and you're making referrals, or you're making big time hires, or whatever. Throughout your entire career, your ability to have the nose to pick talent is going to be the most important thing you do. Making the right hiring decision is P-1 in Gordon's opinion. And there's a lot of energy coming through now in my voice, but please, please, please believe me that talent is number number one. And in terms of frameworks and philosophies, how do I go about Brandon? There's loads of, I've hired probably in the region of about I think 400+ people directly or indirectly, and maybe 30+ directly. Anyway, point being, you need to align on a set of beliefs and competencies that you believe that if someone possessed these, that they will be successful in this role. That's actually really hard because the taxonomy of skills versus job titles, as I'm sure some of your listeners will be aware, is not exactly a perfect system. And so I think you have, that's the first challenge. But I would say getting really clear on what are the three to five things that this person must be able to do? And then it becomes how do we objectively test for those things in a consistent manner, which is extremely important. I also think you want to give yourself as diverse a candidate slate as possible, so you can hear a multitude of different perspectives asking the same consistent answers to questions. That will really inform the gaps you can and cannot fill. And I think, the other big thing on the hiring front, after you've agreed to those things and you have ways of testing for them, and I'll give you an example. So let's say you're hiring a salesperson - one of my core beliefs, with sales people or any people actually, anybody for that moderate is coachability. And whether you're running a huge big company and you're the CEO, or no matter who you are, you have to be able to coach people around you or else you're just going to end up doing their job for them. And so the way we would test for coachability is give you a scenario and say, "Hey Brandon, you're a an account executive, you got an inbound lead coming in, qualify this person - BANT, pick your thing - and then we'll listen to the call. And so we go through, we do a 20 minute thing, you give the call and then I'll give you feedback - immediately, I give you feedback on that call. And then what I say is, okay, I'm going to ask you to come back in a week and we're going to try the same or similar role play again. And what I'd to see is demonstrable improvement in the areas of giving you feedback. Does that sound reasonable? Okay, great. So now I've given them a week to prepare and recalibrate against some of those things. First thing I do when they walk into the second round is say, "What was the feedback I gave you?" And if they don't know the answer to that question close to verbatim, that's not a good thing - put it that way. But thankfully 99 times out of 100 they do. And it's really a question for me to say - how quickly and with what level of dexterity was this person able to adapt to the coaching I gave them, and what was their emotional reaction to that coaching? Because in the interview process when someone's trying to get a role is different from when someone's in role, and you're giving coaching and feedback on a weekly basis. So coachabiliity for me is key, and I think he can test that going week over week by just keeping it quite simple - that's one thing I would test for, as an example. Naber:  That's great. And as you go through that process of interviewing thousands of people, thousands and thousands of people to hire hundreds and hundreds of people, do you have a way of...what is the method that you use for calibrating with other people, and who do you include in that process for calibrating the candidates that you're interviewing? Gordon Tobin:  Yeah, first person is definitely the Talent Acqsuition (TA) partner, and then secondary spherical is all my cross functional partners will be involved. So I think anybody they would be involved in working with, we would want them to again and go through a score card of what the things that this person would need to be able to have already done and be expected to do in that job. And that'll be different for each cross functional stakeholder. And so making sure I calibrate each one of those. First port of call is always my TA leader. Then we speak to the people that interact with most frequently in a cross functional basis, have the things you want to test for, think through how we test for them objectively so we remain compliant and all that kind of stuff. And then it's a a matter of rolling out the process. And I think the big thing there is really, really the good candidate management. I think a lot of companies get applications - I think LinkedIn got somewhere in the region a million applications last year, which is a lot of applications, and it creates a management issue. And I think a lot of companies are quite good at sourcing and finding people that they think are good, but different things happen internally or competing stuff comes up, and they push an interview or they do something like that - that's terrible, from a candidate experience point of view. I go down and I meet people down in the lobby, and I shake their hand, and I walked them him up, and I walked them out, and I talk to them. And I actually asked people in the lobby - did they interact with you? I'm curious to hear how they interact normally when not under supervision in a contrived environment. Naber:  I love that. I love that nugget. I love it. Any one to two specific interview questions, or types of questions that you ask that are very telling in the interview process for what you look for? And I don't mean against specific competencies, but a Gordon Tobin special question, where I asked this all the time because it tells me something that no other questions or very few other questions will be able to answer for me. Gordon Tobin:  I'll give you two examples. One is a Gordon Tobin, one is not a Gordon Tobin one. So the not Gordon Tobin one, which I always find very interesting to learn about people's early motivations. and a lot of this stuff happens before the age of seven - you're programmed, or so they say. But I asked people, what's the, particularly in a sales context, what's the first thing that you did in life to make money? What was the first job you had? Naber:  That is a good question. Gordon Tobin:  And I'm curious to know, was that job a function of necessity? Curiosity? Just natural innate a entrepreneurial-ism? Was it something they absorbed from the environment around them, like osmosis? So that's one. And I think their motivations for that can be quite telling in the kind of work they did. That's one big one. And I think the other one, for me, if I think about it...Just a general framework or philosophy, I think when I bring anybody in that I'll share, that it's a little bit off topic, but I think is important is this idea of near perfect autonomy and accountability when you have the talent in the door. And so this is probably my main one. And this is...early in a role, people need direction because they don't know what they don't know, and then they get to stage two and they're like okay, now I know what I don't know, and they need more guidance. And then you bring them through the guidance period, and then they know what they're doing, and they're in the flow zone. Well, most managers, and I've made this mistake myself - oh that person's crushing it, they don't need my help anymore. And then they get bored and they become an attrition risk, and you don't know about it. And so for me it's being able to recognize where people are in that curve and developing their talent along the way. And paying hyper-attention to everybody, because everybody's in a different place in the competency curve. And so when you think about autonomy and accountability, I aspire to get people near perfect autonomy to make decisions as they want and consciously trying to divorce myself from as many decisions as possible. And the reason why I do that is I cannot hold sales people or anybody accountable for the end result or the output, if I have too much meddlesome interaction in the inputs. They are free to come ask for my advice, for my counsel, for me to remove barriers, resources, or get on deals, I don't mind. But I won't insert myself directively in doing that, unless of course there's a performance thing going on. But generally how do I give this person as much autonomy to do what they need? But also let them know that with the autonomy, will come accountability at the end. And where I've seen people thrive in those environments. But it's hard. The little analogy I'll give to explain it is, it's like if you had your kid and your teaching it how to ride the bicycle. And you've got the - what do you call them, stabilizers? The little wheels? Training wheels. And their on their training wheels, and you take the training wheels off, and they start to wobble maybe just a little bit. If they're in a park and there's some nice soft ground, and some grass, you might actually let them wobble for a little bit longer so they learn the lesson of balance. You may even let them have a little spill so they learn what happens if you don't keep balance, if you don't keep the wheels straight. But if on the other hand you saw your child veering dangerously towards some oncoming traffic, you would of course jump in and step in. And the challenge with the autonomy and accountability model is knowing difference between when to step in, when to allow the person learn from the mistake. And that's really dependent on how existential the risk is of the learning lesson relative to the mistake. But that's a hard one, and I'm still a student of that and will be until my last breath. Naber:  That's a really good one. Do you have any tips for that evaluation process? Gordon Tobin:  Yeah, I think for me, you've got to think about...usually this comes up where someone says, "Hey, I want to try this thing." Whatever new way they want to sell something, or go to market, or some new thing. And for me, it's like, I've probably seen this movie before and have an idea, an inkling of how I think it's going to play out. And kind of most of the time it plays out that, not always, I'm wrong - we're only human. And the question I always ask myself is, is this a one way door or a two way door? So if they're walking into a one way door and there's no way of backing out, I try and make sure I highlight that for them. If it's a two way door, and they can walk in and be "Ooh", this might not have been the right room, let's moonwalk back out, back through door number two. And the analogy I use. And this is where it goes back to autonomy. I'm not going to make that decision for the rep, I'll provide the frameworks to allow them think through the process. But I won't tell people the answer because that's not my job. My job is to hire really smart people and coach them and bring out the potential in them, not provide all the answers. And I couldn't if I wanted to, even if...I'm just not capable of providing all the answers. Very few people are, and anybody who tells you they are - I would veer very, very far away from them. That's just Gordon's opinion. Naber:  So, you've got all these smart, coachable, brilliant people that you bring in into business. You're building culture - set, demo, hold the standard. And you've got to bring these folks into a structured environment that they're going to be able to succeed. What is your - let's start with something simple. What is your meeting structure or your cadence, whether it be daily, weekly, monthly look like? Some of the meetings that you have, conversations you have, what's your cadence? Gordon Tobin:  For sure. So I think, maybe I'll speak about it just from the front line manager perspective, which might be helpful. I think, first of all, in my opinion, the two core operating priorities for anybody is hiring and coaching. I'll repeat that again, talent and coaching. 40% of your time as a frontline managers should be spent coaching. And I would, espouse folks on the call, if you haven't, maybe Google the GROW model - there's a bunch of them, but it's a way of asking questions to get the answer as opposed to just giving the answer. So you want to teach someone had to fish as opposed to just hand them fresh fish, every day - that's the idea there. Naber:  Love Fish. Gordon Tobin:  Yeah. Who doesn't love a good fishing. The other ways you've got to bring people along these curves is helping them...I see myself almost like a Sherpa that doesn't carry the bags. And so I can point the direction of up the mountain because I've climbed a bit of it, and I've seen where the pitfalls are, and I can tell people that. But I ain't going to carry your bags, and you got to walk up that mountain yourself. And you gotta be motivated to do so. I think if you find the right people and you give them the right set of direction, and you set the right cultural foundations, you're in a really good spot for people to thrive. But you must create the necessary conditions for success, which all begins with culture. Naber:  Got It. Awesome. And what percentage of your week would you bucket into each major thing that you're doing? Let's use the frontline sales manager example. What percentage of your time are you spending doing each particular thing? Either per week or per month, however you've thought about it. Gordon Tobin:  So, hour-long staff meeting once a week. That's where everyone through our operating priorities, our OKR's, and how we're pacing against them. We'll have a forecast meeting, which is your typical upside, downside, outlook - how we're pacing against that, any things we need to do to accelerate or decelerate what's going on. And then, I'll have an hour long, ideally one to one with every rep, where five minutes might just be spent, just double checking if anything changed in the forecast, if any swings happen in deals. But most of that time should be spent coaching. And then maybe toward the end of the quarter, with a couple of people, I put on my non-qualified therapist hat and support people through those moments that we all have in sales where we're like "Ooh, where's my, where's my number coming from? And the reality is nobody goes through a sales career unscarred. And so as a manager you need to be compassionate to that, and help support and guide people to those moments when it happens. Naber:  Awesome. Favourite or most impactful monthly or quarterly meetings that you have? Gordon Tobin:  Favourite, most impactful monthly or quarterly meetings we have. The All Hands meeting for sure that Rics owns. I think that gives the air traffic control point of view of what's going on. I think it's really important for a leader to, from a stakeholder management point of view, obviously up, down, and across, but down is so important. And for me, clarity and transparency are really important. And for a CEO, like Rich to build trust with 230 people, that happens with consistency over time. And so I think you get the same set of operating priorities, the same set of values or culture is consistent, and every month you're CEO, she or he is coming out and talking to those, and reminding people with reputation, reputation, reputation. Steve Gergen once said, former press secretary, "You got to repeat something until people are sick of hearing it." I'm a big believer in that. I'm a big believer in. And Rich comes out once a month, and has that meeting. And I think it's really, transparent. It's really informative, and it builds trust. Gordon Tobin:  Awesome. I think, Jeff Weiner used to say, "Only after you've said something a hundred times, people will have full of heard you." Then, after 99 times, they still may not have heard you, after the a hundred times, they may have heard you. So saying something over and over, it'll sink in. I subscribe to that. And then one of the other things, with your example - the all hands meetings - is the transparency that it applies to the entire employee base that allows those employees to go then be autonomous and make decisions because they know what's important and what are the highest priorities within the organization, all within the vein of the cultural and value tenants that, that are so important to the organization - well defined. I think that's a makes sense. It's really valuable as well. Gordon Tobin:  Yeah. Typically, the operating priorities, whether it's my staff meeting, all hands, whatever, it needs to be consistent across the board or else you're just be all over the map. Gordon Tobin:  Yeah. Yeah. 100%. Okay. And as you're, as you're going through some of the different roles that you've had both at LinkedIn and the Global Program that you ran. Actually, just give a one minute summary on the business leadership program that you ran because it was a mammoth. And I feel you skipped over that quite quickly. Give us the 30 to 60 seconds on what you did there, and then we can jump into what my question was. Gordon Tobin:  Yeah, totally. I'm happy to talk about it. Business Leadership Program, headline is we better, that's not the right word. We wanted to do two things. We wanted to up level the entry level sales talent across the sales organization of LinkedIn. And as a secondary, we wanted a longer term play in succession planning in potentially finding young talent and grooming it for more senior executive positions in the long-term. And so the idea was, if we had a different strategy where we went straight to the source, went straight to the universities, went all around the country, even we got to a point we were hiring people who hadn't gone to university - which is another big topic I'd love to get back on your show and talk about another day because talent and opportunity are definitely not equally distributed, for sure. But setting up that program was probably the six most difficult months of my career in that we were a startup within a very large company with high expectation. We were looking to compete with the Goldman's, and the people who already had very established university programs. And for me, I think coming from Australia, having little to no experience in anything akin to that role, and the remit of that role was, it was just a really hard climb. But I would posit to the folks listening today, if I can, from a career standpoint, I think, may be paraphrasing Richard Branson here, but sometimes you'll get an opportunity in life, which you may not feel you're ready for it, but you should jump on it. And that's what I did in that case. And I think, in building that out, we, I think we're, we've hired over 600 or something people now, which is crazy. Naber:  Massive, massive scale. Gordon Tobin:  The retention rate is in around 10%. You'll know millennials in college training programs going into sales, that's well below it, that's a good proxy for industry standard. And so I suppose for me it was, it was very difficult, but it was the most ultimately gratifying thing I've ever done because even now, several years later, they call me, they text me, thanking me, asking for advice, mentorship, all that good stuff. And I thrive on depth of human relationships and the quality of them, not the breath. And to have so many, which is breath, but that go so deep, it's just so gratifying. And to know that I played just a very small part in teaching them about how to go about business in a values based way. And about doing the right thing all the time, even when nobody's looking, even when it's unpopular, even maybe when it's a bad career move, doing the right thing is the right thing always. And that's what I tried to teach those folks and hopefully some of them it stuck. God knows I'm not perfect, but I'm a big believer in ethics, and values, and integrity, and sticking to those things, and that's what I tried to get across to everybody in that program. They were going to learn the skills anyway. All, most skills in almost any job are learnable, but it's the important life lessons that they'll take with them and how they'll treat their employees when they're CEOs of companies, that's what I wanted to get across. And that is when I think we had our biggest win. Naber:  Awesome. I know you only have another few minutes here and you've been really generous with your time. That program was immense, and it had a significant number of stakeholders involved, all around the world, all over the shop. And then your next role also had a lot of stakeholders. This role you're in right now, a lot of stakeholders. Regardless of the organization, you've dealt with a number of stakeholder management, both challenges, solutions, all that fun stuff. How do you think about stakeholder management and what are some of the most important things people need to do as they're managing their stakeholders internally? Gordon Tobin:  Yeah. I think it's typical frameworks - up, down, across. Know your audience. I think it's good to have a template, a format that again comes in the form of your operating priorities. It always starts with your vision, your values, your operating priorities, and then how your business is pacing. I think when you're going up the chain that's a little bit more brief and succinct. I think when you're going across, with your cross functional peers, is to make sure that they're aware of all the dependencies that exist, and maybe resource constraints that you have to have. Perhaps you have to have a joint OKR with them. And then when you're talking to the team, it's about rallying and inspiring them around any shared vision as it relates to your overall operating priorities and what you set out. And I think if you can do those things, you're in a really go place. Naber:  Awesome. Thanks Gordon. Do you have time for two rapid fire questions then we'll head out. Gordon Tobin:  Well, I have about 90 seconds left. Naber:  Awesome. I always ask this question on people's birthdays. but I'm gonna ask it - it's not your birthday today, but I'm going to ask it to you today. What's the most valuable lesson you've learned in the last 12 months? Gordon Tobin:  In the last 12 months? It's better to be loving than to be right. Naber:  Wow. That's a good one. Is that a personal lesson or professional lesson? Gordon Tobin:  Both. Naber:  Love it. Cool. Last question...Best career navigation advice you would have for young professionals. Gordon Tobin:  Build your professional life and your personal life, not the other way around. A lot of people take 30, 40 years to figure that one out. And by that stage in some cases, it's too late. If you've got the...I'll finish on this note, the loneliest, actually the wealthiest place in the entire planet, and I'm not going morose here, it's a graveyard. Because it's full of ideas, inventions, books, poems, people who loved other people who never tell them, and it's filled with those people. And so, I would say to anybody, it's never too early or too late to be who you want to be. And if you're listening to this call, don't join and don't increase the wealth of that graveyard. Give everything you've got, and follow what you want to do, not what others expect you to do. And I think if you do that, you'll live a very happy life. So build it around your personal objectives and make sure your professionalized supports those, and not the other way around. Which is unfortunate, I see a lot of people do that and go through too much undue suffering in their careers, and it's actually life doesn't have to be that, believe it or not. Naber:  Hey everybody, thanks so much for listening. If you appreciate it and enjoyed the episode, go ahead and make a comment on the post for the episode on LinkedIn. If you love the Naberhood Podcast, would love for you to subscribe, rate, and give us a five-star review on iTunes. Until next time, go get it.

Guest: Max Crowley - Former General Manager, Uber for Business @Uber, Employee #25 @Uber Guest Background: Max Crowley joined Uber in August 2011 as employee #25 (Uber has now launched in over 500 cities, and 75 countries globally; IPO in May 2019, $84B Valuation) During his time, Max launched and built two large businesses for Uber. His first role consisted of launching and building out Uber's business in his hometown of Chicago (Uber's 4th market). As Uber grew Max managed the entire Midwest Team of Marketing Managers and was responsible for hiring in the region. In 2014, Max relocated to San Francisco to work directly for Uber's Chief Business Officer. Along with a small team of engineers, Max spearheaded and launched Uber's first B2B Enterprise group, Uber for Business. There are now over 150+ people working on these teams globally and Uber have 75,000+ companies actively using our platform. Max has since left Uber - he is no longer associated with the company, and he does not speak for Uber Max currently lives in New York City, and he's an active world traveller, and Angel & early stage Investor  Guest Links: LinkedIn | Twitter Episode Summary: In this episode, we cover: - Uber: Launching New Markets at Record Frequency & Speed - Building Marketplaces - Early Days Best Practices - Creating B2B Businesses on B2C Platforms - Tips for Hiring at Hypergrowth Speed and Scale Full Interview Transcript: Naber:  Hello friends around the world. My name is Brandon Naber. Welcome to The Naberhood, where we have switched on, fun discussions with some of the most brilliant, successful, experienced, talented and highly skilled Sales and Marketing minds on the planet, from the world's fastest-growing companies. Enjoy! Naber:  Hey everybody. We've got Max Crowley on the show today. Max joined Uber in August, 2011 at employee #25 at the company. Uber has now launched over 500 cities and 75 countries globally. They IPO'd in May, 2019, and they have a valuation of $84 billion. During his time at Uber, Max launched and built two large businesses for them. His first role consisted of launching and building up Uber's business in his hometown of Chicago, Uber's fourth market. As Uber grew, Max managed the entire Midwest team of Marketing Managers and was responsible for hiring in the region. In 2014 Max relocated to San Francisco to work directly for Uber's Chief Business Officer. Along with a small team of engineers, Max spearheaded and launched Uber's first B2B enterprise group, Uber for Business. There are now 150+ people working on these teams globally, and Uber has over 75,000 companies actively using the platform. Max has since left Uber. He is no longer associated with the company and he does not speak for Uber. Max currently lives in New York City. He's an active world traveler, and he's an active angel and early stage investor. Here we go. Naber:  Max Crowley, good to have you on the show. How are you my friend. Max Crowley:    I am great. Thanks so much for having me. Naber:  Yeah, no worries. Thanks for coming on. I mean, the pleasure's on this side of of the table, of the desk, all of this side of of the ocean. e Max Crowley:    Exactly. I was going to say that side of the the pond, or whatever... Naber:  Ha, that's right, the massive Pacific Coast pond. You are in New York City right now? Max Crowley:    I am in New York City. I'm in a WeWork in Soho, Tribeca area. Naber:  Nice one. And you live around the area? Max Crowley:    I do, I do. I mean, I've been in Manhattan since November. So going on seven, eight months in New York. Naber:  Nice! So, I said that I didn't know that...you and I have talked for years, and I know exactly on your life. But everyone does. So, what's your favourite part about living in New York so far? Max Crowley:    The energy. I had a friend the other day describe it as, you could be sitting at your desk, and you need a pick me up. And literally in New York you just walk outside and it's just, it just hits you. And there's people...it can be any time of day, there's people everywhere doing everything possible. It's completely diverse. All walks of life, doing all walks of every possible profession, thing. It's the best. And so for me, it's a little bit of like feeding the beast. I mean I just sort of drink from the fire hose that is New York. So yeah, I love it. Naber:  You being the beast. Nice one. And we'll talk about...I want to talk about your personal journey. So we'll get into how you got to New York because you've been in a few different major markets. You've been all over the world, with both some of your traveling and for work as well. So, why don't we start there? Why don't we start with some personal stuff. And I want to go all the way back. I want to know Max J Crowley as a kiddo, for a few minutes. So could you give us maybe, five minutes, it's going to be longer than that, a little spoiler. I'm going to ask the questions, but it'll be longer than that. But could you give us five minutes on what it was being a kid is Max Crowley, what you were growing up, and then walk us through your childhood? Max Crowley:    Yeah. Well I was a total pain in the ass kid. So what it was like Max Crowley, and what it was like being my parents. So I'm from Park Ridge, Illinois. So literally grew up five minutes from O'Hare airport, about 20 minutes from downtown Chicago. So just on just on the edge of Chicago. Sort of a city vibe, but suburban vibe at the same time. Definitely sheltered community in some ways. Right on the edge of the city, but the first sort of suburb. And my parents scrapped and everything else to get us to that town, which was sort of a feat I think in their minds. And my mom didn't go to college. My Dad went to college...I think. My grandparents were blue collar people, south side, west side of Chicago. And so, I think my parents were definitely the first to push us to the next level. And everything was about my sister and I. Everything was about..Everything they could do to make us great and make us better than them. Just to an insane degree. I mean, the fact that my parents still have a mortgage on their house, and they bought it in 1983. It's basically, they just pulled money out of this thing for 30+ years, so we could go on a yearly vacation, and I could go to college, and my sister could go to college...And I probably had half of my tuition, paid off by them, so I didn't have that bad of loans coming out. My sister wanted to be a teacher, and that enabled her to be able to do that, but I'm having crazy amounts and so on. So I mean, truly a team. When I think my family unit, truly was a team effort of like, alright, we came from this...My grandfather through my mom out at 17. She was like...no college, basically no backing. I mean, my grandmother was great. She was pretty much out on her own, got sales jobs, just built an awesome career for herself, in a lot of ways. Then she quit to raise us. And just, again, it's this team family unit of, alright, let's pack together. We're going to have fun, we're going to do this. But let's see where we can take this thing. And it's at least, sort of the view that I've had of it. Super lucky, I've had some success by the time I'm 32, and been able to give back to them in a huge way. And so, I think, that's at least looking back on my...I can give you some specifics about me as a child, but that's sort of the high level of where I'm from, and in a lot of ways drives me now day in and day out. Max Crowley:    Cool, I love it. Can you tell me what your parents did for work? What your mom did for work before she was raising you guys full time, and what your dad did for work? Naber:  Sales. They met selling. My dad was selling. My dad was working for Tristar Pictures which became Sony Pictures, doing video to video stores, which don't really exist anymore. But even your big brands, we're buying videos direct from these companies, and putting them on shelves, or Blockbuster, or wherever else. My mom did the same thing with records, then it became CD's. So that's how they met. My mom was at CBS records, which became Sony records. My Dad was at, Tristar which became Sony Pictures. And yeah, they met calling on accounts. They're just hustlers, straight hustlers. Naber:  Cool...straight hustlers. When I look at your pics on social, you guys look such a unit together. Such a team. And it's so interesting to hear you describe your family that. It sounds like a less romantic story meeting at work, but usually those are some of the most romantic stories, as to how it actually happened. Do you know how they met? Max Crowley:    Yeah, yeah. I mean, they were working...they were still calling on accounts. I mean, they weren't working for the same company. Just was overlap in similar industries. So, I don't know, who knows. But yeah, we're definitely a unit. I mean, it's funny, when I got my big ,sort of success, professional win, I called my parents, and I was like, we made it! It was like when I watch the NBA draft, or whatever. That's how I felt, so it's just kind of funny. Naber:  Oh, that's awesome. I love it. Cool stories so far with the family unit. Now, what about Max as a kid? What was Max like? What was your personality? What was the things you were interested in? Max Crowley:    Disrupter, total pain in the ass, class clown. Had to be the center of attention - was Santa in the school play in first grade. I was always in trouble for running my mouth. Had a million detentions for insubordination. And then, I was not a great athlete, and I did plays, and musicals, and sang and things that. Which I don't ever talk about...Then to the point that I actually got thrown out of the senior year of musical for being a pain in the ass, which I can't imagine many people have been thrown out of a musical in high school, but I take that honor. Naber:  Yeah, no, that's both impressive, and probably needs a very short story behind it. How in the world you get thrown out of a musical that you're putting on? Especially as a senior - they're like, oh, this is, this guy's last shot, he's gonna have a good time...Nope, not Max. Max Crowley:    It's interesting, and a badge of honor. Then also completely embarrassing and ridiculous. I mean, there's no great story there. It was more just me, I was always pushing. I'm always pushing the envelope. I live on the edge. It's one of the things that I do, for better or for worse, which is a lot of the things about myself I think. And yeah, that has translated to the rest of my life. I think it's funny, as you get older you start to be able to go back and parse through things that happened to you. And there are things that become good traits later on, and things that you improve on, and whatever else. Naber:  Awesome. Were you a big sports fan growing up? Chicago sports, Jordan, etc? Max Crowley:    Yeah, year, of course. Yeah. I mean I was in 91-98. Yeah, I mean you grew up anywhere rooting for the Bulls, especially in the city there. Yeah, it was wild. Before we hop into, you being a Hawkeye - what was your star performance in a musical or in a play? Max Crowley:    A Little Shop of Horrors. The Dentist in the Little Shop of Horrors. Great role. I don't know if you've ever seen Little Shop of Horrors. I mean, Steve Martin played it in the movie. It's a comedic, fun, sort of villainous character... Naber:  So you graduate from high school, kicked out of your senior play, and you're going straight to University of Iowa. Why University of Iowa? And tell us a little bit about Max at University of Iowa. Max Crowley:    I wanted to go to a Big 10 school, that was just...growing up was the goal. That was sort of, if you do that, again it's sort of arbitrary a lot of ways, but I think if you go to a Big 10 school, that's a huge feat. And so I was looking at schools like Michigan State, Indiana, Iowa, sort of the mid tier, Big 10 schools. And yeah, it ended up being, it was great. Campus was beautiful, school was fine. I think in a lot of ways lucked into majoring in business. I had no idea what I wanted to do. I took classes all over the map. I was not a great student. And yeah, I sort of just did what it took to get by, which lucky enough was able to get me into a Big 10 school. And then when I got there, I didn't know what I was doing. I actually had a really bad first semester sophomore year. I had a couple of D's, it was just a disaster. And yeah, I took a microeconomics class...so I was in a fraternity, and everybody in it was majoring in business. And I had no intentions of majoring in business when I went to school. But something about the camaraderie with the group and starting to actually own some pieces of the fraternity...I was the kitchen manager, and I was managing getting everybody meals every day, and getting supplies in the closet. Then I became the social chair, there's managing the books behind that, was throwing parties all the time. So you had to think about how much does it cost to throw a party? How can you make money? You sort of get a feel for the fraternity, and work in a group, working in a unit. You've got, like, nine people that lead the fraternity, and it's the first time I'm in meetings and what not. And look, growing up, definitely sort of natural leader...I was the only youth on our Minister Search Committee at my church growing up. So just some random stuff that where, again, you sort of go back and think about your life, and I can't believe I did that. But obviously adults saw something in me that, that they appreciated even when I was bouncing off the walls, or whatever else. Half the time making them angry, and half the time, you know, ideally or hopefully, someone saw something in me and tried to pull it out. I mean, looking back at my life, those were the best people. The people that saw through the craziness, and we're like, all right, there's something with this kid. Let's help get him to the next level. Anyways, at school, when I was in my fraternity, we started to do more formal leadership stuff, and maybe my brain started to see that more, or it was more obvious - like, oh wait, this is a little business. We've taken dues, you have budgeting, my best friend was the treasurer. We're jamming all the time on how to spend money most efficiently. How to push it to make the formal the best formal we've ever had. And then I took a micro economics class, and then it was, I just, why would I not do this? And then I started to get competitive too, in that - wait, all these other people around me are majoring in business. If they're doing it and are going to get better jobs, or whatever else, well I'm going to do it. And yeah, I think it was one of the best things to happen to me. Even though, you learn whatever you learn, I don't think majors matter. For me, it was more about, putting me on the right sort of trajectory where I started to professionalize a bit. And so, I think up to that point, I had no reason to care about being a professional. And then I started to think, all right, what is the next level of this? And I was the Monster Energy drink rep on campus. I had a thousand cans of monster every month, and they paid me 200 bucks, and I had to throw events or whatever and pass those out. Was waiting tables, was doing all these things. And I think especially looking back now, I started to see this scrappiness, hustler, doer, maker. And I just never thought you could do any of that stuff professionally, and be successful. But that was sort of the beginning stages of me piecing these things together. And again, before I even knew what I was doing. And I had grown up carrying golf bags, I mean that was caddying at 13 carrying golf bags all summer. Always sort of hustling, making money, selling stuff on Ebay. But yeah, you're sort of doing it to get by, growing up. And then as you get older and you start to have, a little bit more of a outside the box, outside of your head mind space, you can think about things. That was when I started to just sort of get my mojo, and it started to become clear - wait, you can piece these things together into a thing. And so anyways, I ended up majoring in business, and graduated in four years, on time, finance degree, and set me up for whatever I was going to do next. Naber:  Awesome. I mean it's amazing how some people...it takes years and years and years to become an overnight success. And you and I, in our personal networks and professional-personal networks, have a lot of examples of that. And you're one of those examples of that in my life. But when you do retrospect on those individuals, and you profile those individuals, talk to them enough, you realize that they have that in them from a young person. The hustle, the entrepreneurial spirit, the scrappiness, the making cash, the energy behind all of that, the ambition. And you're one of those profiles that it sounds like, just looking back, you probably think to yourself, oh, I guess that kind of makes sense why I became the adult human that I am right now, and the place you are professionally. Max Crowley:    Yeah, I mean, I preferred to college tailgate where I set it up...We rented a house near the football game, paid off the owner, collected 50 bucks at the door, pre-bought beer, sold tickets at the front, made quick thousand bucks, then going to the football game. Like, that was a much better Saturday to me than getting drunk and going to the football game. Yeah, I think at the time...It seems obvious,yeah, when you started to go back and look at these things, it's funny thinking about it. I mean, fast forward to when I started Uber, it was like wait, these are all...the scrappiness was something that was sort of an ethos, that was sort of naturally in me, and just something you don't really think about. Naber:  Ha, absolutely. And you still have drinks and went to the football game, but you just do a thousand bucks in your pocket. Most people, most people that are you did both - had drinks, went to the football game, and then also made some cash. So, you did monster energy for a couple of years. You also said you waited tables, you're social chair in your Frat. You were also with the Krause Fund at University of Iowa. Tell us a little bit about being an equity analyst there, what you did. Max Crowley:    That was part of my finance degree. So, it was one of the last classes you do, where you actually...there's a pool of money that someone had allocated in a fund, and we were basically for a semester equity analysts. So you were looking at a specific sector, you owned a sector with your group. You studied it, and then you decided to either double down on the a couple of companies that you have in that sector, or sell them and replace them with something else. So we had the pharmaceutical sector, and so we went deep on that. But yeah, I think those were the things where, again, it was just parts of this, sort of, becoming more of a professional. And even in that, I think, I saw I was more of the motivating other people to do the work, and how do we professionalize our presentation, and have the best looking presentation, and go up to the group and nail our presentation, and sort of try and stand above the fold that way. So much more of the Marketing sort of showmanship, selling of that element, than the pure work. But that's fine. I mean, that's where, the other people that I was on that project with are two really close friends of mine, and now they're analysts. And they should be, that's what they're great at. I should have been probably more Marketing, or something that. But again, it was before I could have even known what my skills were in, or that you can even match those up. I mean, that's what's so crazy about college. We go way too early. I mean you barely have to know who you are as a human being. let alone know where your skill...how your skills match up to a degree or to a professional career. I was just trying to survive in a lot of ways. Naber:  Nice. It's so interesting. I think one of the things that you do really well, I actually think it's one of the superpowers, that not a lot of people are good at this, especially at a young age, and then turne it into massive, massive success like you have in a really high velocity way, is playing to your strengths. You've done a really, really excellent job across your entire time that I've known you, while you're at Uber, and afterwards, playing to your strengths. So, were going to go to Accenture for a second, then we'll hop into Uber because I've got a bunch of questions around what you were up to at Uber, and some of the roles that you had. And we'll have some fun. So you graduate from, from University of Iowa, you go into Accenture right away. Tell us what you're doing there for a couple minutes. Max Crowley:    Yeah. I mean, I was the only person from Iowa to get a job at Accenture that year. Because I was graduating in 2009, so I got that job in November 2008. Which is when everything was going nuts, in October. So, the stock market '08 was obviously the way it was, but by the fall things were looking really bad. And yeah, they pushed me back a little bit on my start date, but I was able to keep the job. And yeah, again, it was just more about hustling thing, I think, for that, it was more just competitive and maybe even the ego of just, I don't want to not have a job when I graduate and be that person doesn't have one. And the best people I know are out hustling for jobs. So I'm going to try out hustle them. I'm going to go do 50 interviews on campus, and meet every person, and go to the happy hours, and run around, and find anybody that I know at Accenture and ping them. Again, some things that I think we're just more natural to me, but I sort of just hustled my way and got that gig on campus and no one else did, which was just crazy. Naber:  That's a good confidence builder. Max Crowley:    Yeah. Because then you end up at the first day and it's, University of Illinois, which is a way better school than Iowa, Northwestern, Michigan, bunch of top tier East Coast schools, and then me. Naber:  Chip on your shoulder. Max Crowley:    Yeah. And also just, just I can do this. I'm going to always be this guy. I'm always going to be the dumbest guy in the room in some ways. But I'm down for that. They've got the analogy...yeah, chip on my shoulder, I can prove that I can do this. I can prove that me, from where I'm from, where I grew up, Iowa, I'm going to be...I can do this. Naber:  And then what were you doing at Accenture? Can you tell us maybe one, two minutes on what your job was? Max Crowley:    I mean, I was just a consulting analyst. It wasn't glamorous. The people were awesome. My managers were the best. My coworkers were awesome. Yeah, I was not very good at that. I mean, hopefully at this point I never had to go get a job as a systems integration consultant again. But if I do, and someone listens to this, they shouldn't hire me. I was pretty bad. Naber:  It would be ironic if that's your go to in 10 years. Max Crowley:    I get random LinkedIn messages where people are like, hey, we're looking for a systems integrations architect for Oracle, and I'm just like "ughhh". I was the worst. I was at the worst, the worst. I was probably the last employee at Accenture that year. Naber:  All right, so you were a terrible consultant at Accenture, which makes a lot of sense. And then after Accenture, you moved Uber. Your eyes light up, your world changes, and you're there for seven years? Seven years. I mean, there's endless number of stories to be told about what you were doing at Uber. So tell us about making that jump, and then just...I just want you to talk about that journey. What you were doing, projects you're working on, how you were contributing to those projects, what you were good at, what you weren't good at, and we'll go through, maybe each year, if that's okay. One step at a time. So you joined, you're employee #25. You joined in August, 2011. Why do you make the jump, and and what do you hired to do? Max Crowley:    Yeah, I mean, so going back to the Accenture stuff, I was a terrible consultant, to the point where...and again, I just can't say enough about how good the people, how amazing the people were at Accenture. And again, it just comes to this sort of thing in your life where, especially for me, just people just, you know...I'm a handful at times, but the right people just saw through it, and just helped me along the way in such an unbelievable way. I mean, I remember when I left Accenture, my boss sent me a note that was basically just something along the lines of if you put your heart and soul into this thing as much as you did in getting the job, you're going to be wildly more successful than if you were here. Naber:  That's good advice... Max Crowley:    Yeah. And I think just having that support...I just always felt a ton of support from a lot of people along the way. So I was working at Accenture, and I was not very good at it. I didn't love it. I didn't really like it at all. And I was reading about startups all the time, and I would ping CEO's and founders and such, and pretty much universally people would ignore me. And Groupon was really hot at the time in Chicago, and so Chicago had the startup bug a bit. And so, that was going on. I was pinging people, I read about Uber, and I just thought this is going to be...this is super cool, this would be so cool in Chicago. I read that they wanted to launch in Chicago, and just thought that this would be the most insane professional...my job could be to slang this cool car service company in Chicago. Get people in Chicago to use this thing, that would be a dream job. And so I wrote up a really simple business plan - why Chicago, why I would launch it there, tactics for launching there. And I found Travis Kalanick's email on the internet, and I sent it to him. And he ignored me, or he never saw it, he said. So then I Tweeted at the guy that was running New York at the time, and he responded. He only had 300 Twitter followers or something, so I was like all right, this guy might respond to me. And so he responded, and he got me in touch with Ryan Graves, and Ryan and I did a Skype call, and he was three hours late...And I waited on Skype, and we were about halfway through the call, and he just said, I don't think you know what you want to do. I don't think this makes any sense. I wish you the best, you seem like a good guy, but this isn't a thing. And so I was crushed, bummed. I'd spent a couple of weeks trying to get hold of these guys. I finally did, and I blew it. And a couple of weeks went by, and I was at work again, miserable. I was messing around on Twitter, and I stumble on Graves' Twitter profile, and I see he had tweeted, I'm going to be at this bar in Chicago for the next two hours, if anybody wants to come here and talk about Uber. And I was two hours outside the city. I tell my boss and we were working long hours at Accenture. I was like, I got to go. I barrel into the city, go home, change, run to the bar. And she's like, he's gone...but I heard him talking, and I think he might be down the street at this other bar. So I race over there, and he's there. Naber:  What?! Max Crowley:    And him and I, kind of, hit it off. And he's like, I'm so glad that you came, let's do this again soon. So that night or the next morning, whatever it was, I send him a thank you...I don't hear anything. Two weeks go by, I see him Tweet again, I'm in Chicago or whatever. I'm direct messaging him, hey, let's meet up please, please, please. He's like, all right, why don't you do this project for me. Write up every influencer in Chicago that you would get a hold of an how. So I do that. Write up a Marketing plan, do this, write a blog, start blogging personally and give me some set of blog posts. So this is now weeks and weeks and weeks of random things. And I'm doing these projects and would see them randomly. Met the other person they had hired in Chicago. And then one day he's like, I'm in this hotel lobby for the next 30 minutes if you want to come by and talk to me, come here now. Shoot over there, and then...funny enough, I'll never forget it. I rolled in, and he's on his computer, on his MacBook. It's just like, so cool. And I'm like, this is so cool. This could be me. I could be doing this job, versus I'm a consultant. I got all these laptops, I have like five laptops on me. I'm VPN'ing in, got my badge...And so anyways, he again basically says, no - we're taking a risk on you, and all this. So I called my mom and she said, screw this, you're great. You're a star, you've got a nice career ahead of you at Accenture. Flip it on them, tell them that they're the ones that...you're the one taking a risk, and sort of takeaway close a bit. And so she helps him write this email. I send it to him, and he responds 30 seconds later, and says, I'm on the next flight to Chicago, pick a place for dinner. So we met for dinner and it was Alan Penn, who was first hire in Chicago. He, Ryan, and I had a crazy long dinner, it was storming out, we're sweating - it was the middle of the summer. And then at the end of it he's like, we're going to hire you. And away I went. Naber:  I just got the chills, that's a great story. Max Crowley:    So, I mean, it was crazy. And it's crazy because obviously now the thing becomes so successful, and so you don't...and look, all this stuff's luck and timing and everything else. So, but I think, the process...I was in love with what the job was going to be, and I think the process when you can't get a thing, you become even more and more motivated. And Ryan Graves is awesome, and the coolest dude ever. I think that it was also just this bar that I really wanted to reach. And he had hustled and scrapped his way to get the too, which is now a famous story. And in a lot of ways I sort of saw myself in him, and it made me really, really want it. And then, the minute I had it, I mean it was, it was off to the races, it was crazy. Naber:  Awesome. Great Story. Wow. I got the chills twice in that story. It's great. Okay. So you're going full steam into Uber at the time. Is your first project launching Uber Chicago? Max Crowley:    Yeah. So, then basically the next day, it was Allen and I in a coworking space, box of iPhones, yellow pages, calling drivers, getting drivers in the office, basically telling people what a smartphone is. Naber:  Awesome. Keep going dude. Tell us about this process. So what I want to know, and I think what people want to know this...Two things I'd love for you to, while you're going through telling the story, talking about the specifics of what you're doing - like yellow pages, box of iPhones, get down to the specifics, and bring us to the place where you were. Launching new markets is one of the things that I want to talk about because one of Uber's superpowers is launching new markets, doing it really, really well through adversity, all odds, and having it be extremely successful. So when you're launching Uber Chicago, tell us about that process. Walk us through each phase of launching Uber Chicago as you would, launching a market. And then we can talk about Marketing, PR, Biz Dev, Social Media as you were owning those things. Max Crowley:    Yeah, I mean it was really simple. So at the time, Uber was in San Francisco, New York had launched in April. So San Francisco was summer 2010. New York was April, 2011. And then we were August 11, along with Seattle. Seattle actually launched in August. We did a soft launch in August, and we officially launched September 20th. And Alan and I were basically the first two employees in the field. Austin Geidt, who's the most amazing person ever, she was the first intern at Uber. She had just done every job, and then flew to Seattle and launched that market. So it's basically Allen and I, and Ryan Graves was helping us get Chicago going. So sort of simultaneously, it was sort of the first time Uber started to build the launch muscle. And, year, I mean it was as simple as you get a couple of drivers on the road. So at that time, you sort of incentivized supply to be on the road. In order to have a two sided marketplace, you've got to start with supply. You have to have supply. The only way you can ever have demand is if you have a thing to sell. So we would start by getting drivers on the road, giving them sort of a minimum, such that they would be on the road for the hours that we needed them out there, and incentives to make sure they were accepting dispatches and such. And so yeah, it was basically a week later, Ryan, Allen, and I were in a co-working space conference room at midnight, and he called one of his buddies to take the ride the next morning, and we sent out a email to probably 300 people that we had signed up in Chicago at that time, and said secret Uber's are on the road tomorrow. And the next morning we had the first ride. It was Tom Conrad, who at the time was the CTO of Pandora. So random, it was, no offense to Tom, but the most random rider-zero. We did a cool thing when we launched a city. Someone cool and interesting from that city would be rider-zero. But Chicago, we just hadn't done it. We just didn't really have a list, a launch plan yet. So last minute Graves was like, oh my buddy is in town tomorrow, we'll just have him do it. He had no affiliations to Chicago. I have no idea why he was even there. But, so he was the first dude to take a ride, the first person to take a ride, and then it was off. And so, you would email the few hundred people, and one ride happens, and then an hour later the second ride happens, and then the system starts to work. And so it was black car only, $15 minimum fair, it was about two times what a taxi costs. So it wasn't cheap. But it was still awesome, it was reliable, pretty much five, 10 minutes, press a button, the car pulls up, you can watch it approaches. And drivers were great, open the door, high end experience, and you only pay for as far as you go. So, that was the deal. We did that for four weeks, and then we did an official launch. We were very secretive or whatever, so it was secret Ubers for four weeks. So it was a beta period, which was also a unique sort of Uber innovation, which is basically taking the idea of a software Beta to the real world. Naber:  Yeah - online-offline exclusivity with a Beta. That's interesting. Max Crowley:    Yeah, I mean, I think it's something that other brands and such could definitely do. Yeah, you're just setting expectations, right? It's we're not ready for primetime, but this thing's in Beta. And we did that for four weeks, and it was great. We did another launch September 20th, invited a bunch of cool influencer type people and local entrepreneurs and what not to a dinner. Travis gave a really awesome presentation. Garrett Camp was there, the other cofounder, Graves obviously, Allen and I. And then we did some press that day, and then we've got a market live. So then it shifted into, alright, starting to build supply and demand in the market. Naber:  So tell us up to...You do the actual launch in September, you have the influencers in that dinner. And then, does the market just take care of itself after that...from an Uber perspective? Max Crowley:    You're doing things to incentivize supply to be on the road. Naber:  So tell us about some of those things. What are you doing to incentivize supply and how did that process work? Max Crowley:    So number one, the key to the marketplace to continue to grow supply all the time. So I don't even know if it was totally obvious at that point, but supply was the game. Because if there's a supply out there, people were gonna ride. People always need a ride. And it was so cool and such a game changer that virality starts to happen. You're going to tell your friends about this experience. You're going to either ride with friends, or you're going to...it's just the game that that starts to take place. And so one of the things that you can do is you can incentivize referrals. And so we had to give-get program. Give 10, get 10, give 20, get 20, give a ride, get a ride, -type program. But that juices supply, or sorry demand, it juices demand. But really it's about, you've got cars on the road, you continue to grow supply, demand starts to come in, and then you're growing this sort of referral engine. And then the other thing that we were doing was, if somebody couldn't get a ride for some reason...so we'd be looking all the time, hey, somebody requested and couldn't ride, or somebody opened up the app, and there was no cars around. I was sitting there, literally sending emails to these folks, all day. And so it was, hey, saw you tried to take a ride and you couldn't, here's five bucks...And to kind of cap it off, the baseline is supply, and growing supply, and ensuring supply stays on the road. So incentives to drivers to make sure they're out there. And also, you're not making money from this market yet. And so over time Uber is trying to condense the time from Beta launch, launch, and then profitability or theoretically profitability. And you're using those incentives at that point to just ensure that there's at least some cars on the road. And Saturday night there's a bunch of cars on the road. And this was pre- surge pricing and other things where, you're trying to build these markets up to a place where there is market equilibrium, or whatever the word would be...of this thing is actually working, and it's working on going, and it's growing on going. But at this point it's much more manual. Let's make sure there's cars on the road, riders are sort of natural using it. Let's incentivize them to tell their friends. Let's do a bunch of Marketing campaigns to get them telling friends or get them activating. And then let's be great at customer support. Every ride is rated. Let's follow up on every low rating. I mean, I'm sitting there all day, somebody had a low rating ride - "Hey, what happened? Let me know." Speaking to, Alan, "hey this happened in this car. Can we work on this quality thing? This person is tweeting about us, what's going on? Let me talk to them. This person opened up their app, couldn't get a ride, let's contact them." And so, we're just sitting there all day managing supply and demand of this market. And if you do that, then for the most part people are having positive experiences. Because even if they have a negative experience, they're likely coming back. And again, the underpinning of this is there are cars on the road. Even though you have to pay for that early, it allows you to actually build the thing. And the difference, well there's a bunch of obviously things that were different about Uber, but one of them was - it was reliable. For the most part, open your phone and get a ride within five to 10 minutes. And there was no other thing that had existed before that, where that was the case. And so these were different tactics that basically made that be a thing. And if and if, and if for some reason we missed the mark, we tried to be on top of it. Naber:  Wow. The thing that blows my mind is how gorilla it was. How how grassroots it was, in that you were sitting there with two, three, four, five and then obviously it grew to a lot more people, managing...managing social, giving that anecdotal feedback right away to the person that needs to know about what all of these different experiences are like. Same thing with managing a bad experience. Same thing with incentivizing. Same thing with giving people calls. I mean, there's just so much to do when you're running the operations at a really early stage, it sounds like, for an Uber launch. Sorry Max, did you want to say something... Max Crowley:    Yeah, you hit the nail on the head. And I think, I mean, what was cool about it was it was very entrepreneurial and scrappy. And so, in a lot of ways we owned our market, the P&L for that market, the supply and demand of that market. We owned the metrics for that market really more than anything...So you owned the the local unit, and then you had some freedom to test and to do things at the local market. And we were competitive with the other markets, but in a really positive way, in that we were still this deep comradery because we're all still trying to work...you know, one of the things I learned at at Uber early on was that it really wasn't about me. It was about, it was about the mission of the company. It was about this big thing. And it really wasn't about any individual. Travis wanted to change the world, and saw the world in a certain way, and thought that the world should be that way. And so, whatever you want to say about that, I think it was clear that he thought the transportation and reliability and these things were something that people should have an unlimited access to, and an unlimited right to. Aand again, there's obviously positives and negatives with individuals thinking that they can make the world a certain way, but that is sort of in my mind the beauty of entrepreneurship, and business building, and capitalism, right? And some of the greatest innovations that we've ever seen are based on one person thinking that they can shape the world in a certain way. And some people have a crazy ability to get close to that. But it was very clear early on that we were all part of something that was bigger than ourselves. And I think that has stayed with me to this day. And so what then cascaded down was, there was a culture that we were all in it together. It wasn't about the individual. And so we would work hard at at the local level, and we compete with each other. And it'd be how did Los Angeles onboard 20 SUV's this week. Screw those guys, but also how did you actually do it, and I want to beat you next week. And then they'd say, we did this...we rented out a hotel lobby thing, and invite the drivers there, and put up a craigslist post. And we were like, of course, why didn't we think of that?! We do it the next week, and we'd board 40 SUV drivers. Boston says we want to put the ice cream trucks on the system - genius, we want to do that. And then all of a sudden six cities have ice cream trucks on this system in a random Friday in July. And you're delivering ice cream. And so, there was this really interesting push and pull that I definitely think came from...in a lot of ways this stuff came from a mix of Travis and Ryan Graves were very different people. And they had a really good Ying and Yang that cascaded down that kind of created these sort of interesting petri dishes at the local level that again, shared info, competed, shared info, competed. And then, this thing just started to propel itself forward. I mean, we would literally have weekly calls where every city would have to show their numbers to every other city, and then account for why those numbers were that way and had leaderboards, and whatnot. But it was in a positive way, and again, it's a really tough balance. And I think a lot of that stuff was lucky, and natural, and whatever else. But it was done in a way that was positive. This was not a shaming thing. It was not a...it was gotta bring everybody forward. And again, I mean, it worked. Naber:  I love it. I mean the authenticity behind...the authenticity that is necessary for that to work, was probably something you identified with. So people that know you, know that one of the things you're known for is being authentic. I mean, it's just really clear and apparent, after talking to you for 30 seconds, especially that consistently over time. You must've identified with that in the authenticity that had to be...it was just necessary in order for that type of system to work, to have that pull and push and have it be healthy. Max Crowley:    Yeah. I mean, again, I think there was no, in the early days, no bureaucracy. Not a lot of ego. There was too much to do. It was too early. It was obvious there was product market fit, even though probably half of us didn't even know what that was. But people were using this thing and it was growing. And again, it doesn't mean that...every day was hard. This stuff was not easy - answering, I think I answered 20,000 support tickets in my first year. There was not one day for, for a year that I didn't open up my laptop and answer tickets, and tweets, and all these different things. But obviously, luckily...you can do that and have it not be awesome too. So, I feel very lucky that we put in that work, but it was something that became really successful. And I don't...I definitely took from that, that it doesn't always end up that way. And there was ups and downs too. So, again, this was not easy. It was not all rosy, by any means...so yeah, those were elements that I definitely took from the whole experience. Naber:  Very cool. All right, so we got into - this is great, you're getting onto specifics around support tickets, and answering tweets, and some of the things you did to get supply on the road, you talked about some of the launch tactics. Can you walk us through... I've got maybe two or three more things to talk about, before you moved in 2014 to San Francisco to launch Uber for Business. But maybe two or three more things. Can you talk about a typical launch plan Uber goes through in order to launch a city as much as you can? Max Crowley:    I mean, it was, it was some of the stuff I talked about. I mean... Naber:  Maybe how it looks different now versus how versus the way it looked back then. Maybe that's a good place to start. Max Crowley:    Yeah. I mean now I don't even know. I think, now it's much more centralized generally. So now there's less of a need for the local operations. I think the difference early on was you would actually drop somebody in, they would get to know the market. You had to know the the regulations at a local level. You had to know lawyers at a local level. You had to know all the influencers and the people that made that city, the city. You had to know what it was, the ethos of the city, that made it the city. This was a local thing. Transportation was inherently local. It was drivers in the city. It was rider in the city. If you're launching in Oklahoma City, which, we had a woman who went down there and did that, and she was a rockstar, Emily. She was flying in there, and living there for months, and eating, sleeping, drinking, whatever else Oklahoma City. And she had Nick Collison I think, who was on the Thunder at the time, as rider-zero. That was that. And so, you would drop somebody in, and they would do all these things. And again, it was a similar sort of four to eight week period ramp. You get to the market in a big way, and then you start to grow it, and you try and get a GM in place who's going to own it in perpetuity, and you get a couple of other leaders on the supply and demand side who they're going to own it in perpetuity. And so that was a bit of a launch plan. And then, that person would then jump to another market and those launchers would, would do that for basically as long as they could, which was oftentimes a year, before they were this is crazy. And then they would usually own a market after that. And so, yeah, we just had amazing people do that all over the world. I mean, we had a guy who did that in the Middle East, and he was a guy from San Francisco, and ended up owning massive parts of the Middle East, and was my age and owned a massive P&L. And that was because people, you know, strapped in and a lot of ways, and buckled down, and did these kinds of crazy things where they would go into these markets they have no context on them, and figured out how to make it happen there. So that was the early days. There's much more of the sort of local ethos. Now as you fast forward this thing is much more of a machine. A lot of things have been centralized, as they should. Process has been centralized, technologies have been centralized, support centers have been centralized. The only way that you can have a system that now does, I have no idea what the numbers are now, I assume definitely millions and millions of rides a week, if not per day. You have to have a massive operations, beast of a system that can actually, they can actually do that. Naber:  Love it. Okay, cool. That's great insight. I'm loving getting the curtain pulled back from your perspective and your journey. So, at this point, you're leading and managing Midwest team of Marketing Managers. Tell us about building that team. What'd you guys need to be good at? What you were good at? Tell us a little bit about that journey up until 2014. Max Crowley:    Yeah. I think again, it was really this local ethos. it was people that were...these markets we're getting big. Chicago was getting big. We had a lot of different people that needed to now do Marketing, Promotions, do local deals, continue to try and drive demand there. We also launched new products. We had also launched things UberTaxi, UberX. So the product portfolio was growing, and whenever you did that, you would need people that are owning those things, and figure out how to launch them and building a new pools of supply. And then you launching more markets too. So Indiana, Minneapolis, and a bunch of, Ohio. These were sort of offshoots of Chicago. And so yeah, there was about 65 people in the office by the time I left Chicago. so we grew from two to 65 in a pretty, relatively quick clip. But the complexity of the business had grown significantly over that time. Naber:  Yeah, I figured. So, a couple of questions. What's your scorecard look like, or what are the types of metrics that you needed to look at on a daily, weekly, monthly, quarterly basis to know whether or not you guys are doing a good job? Max Crowley:    I mean you're still looking at trips...And if you think about just the city, I mean it was sort of, and may be obvious, but you're looking at supply pools on a week over week, month over month basis. Retention on the supply side. You're doing the same thing on rider growth. Are you signing people up? If so, where are they coming from? A lot of things...we'd use promo codes a lot across a lot of Marketing promotions and whatnot to try and track what's performing, what's not. And then retention and such, on that side and some early versions of an NPS of just what is the customer satisfaction? Definitely, what are what are the rides being rated? Yeah, I mean it boils down to growth of supply and demand, retention of those things. and then is the market growing at a steady clip, and are these new products growing as well? Which was would vary from product to product. Naber:  Cool. That's great. And then one last thing and then we'll hop into your move out to out to the Bay. When you see marketplaces launch...there's a bunch of tech businesses that are trying to launch marketplaces and that is a massive, massive mountain to climb. But there are a few fundamentals that I'm going to guess that Uber absolutely kicked ass at from a Marketing perspective. When you're thinking about, some of the things that these marketplaces need to get right from a Marketing perspective, are there some best practices that Uber was amazing at that can apply to these other marketplaces as you build them? Max Crowley:    Yeah. I mean, the thing that stands out to me, I think the most, is the need to sort of simulate or stimulate, I don't know if the word would be simulated or stimulate, but one of those words for...making the thing happen manually. So, if you look at, and I don't know anything about these businesses, but a Flexport or something, that business is probably a lot more manual and a lot more sort of pieced together, and early transactions are probably way more offline. And then you're making them online-ish. And that starts to make the thing happen. And then you're saying, hey, we need supply, or this thing's never going to work. So let's, incentivize supply to even be on this thing, and keep paying them to stay on this thing while we're trying to get demand. And then you try and create this fly wheel effect. And it's basically, can you stay alive enough, long enough? Can you keep supply on this thing long enough to get the fly wheel effect? It's coming, unless there's no connection between product market fit, in which case, it's not going to work. But it's basically a game of, can I keep this supply on here long enough such that we can get the inertia that makes this thing a functioning marketplace. And so, I think for me that's a thing I've tried to translate to other people. Which again, it's it is it's either stimulate or stimulate. I don't know, maybe it's a cross between the two words...You have to make the thing happen a bunch, and then if you do that, it can grow. But you can't just throw stuff out there, and expect it to work. You really gotta you gotta do it. Naber:  Yeah, that's great. People almost always only see the end product and the mass machine that's built, and the automation that happens from a user perspective, and thus think that all that automation, and all of that smooth process is built into the how the company operates. And I think that manual piece is something that not just marketplaces take for granted, but even users take for granted, obviously. Because they don't know all the manual effort and set of operations that need to happen to grow these marketplaces. So your examples right now, we're actually, a good testament to that. All right. So let's jump into 2014. In 2014 you moved to San Francisco, and you are launching Uber for Business. There's a lot of people listening right now that are going to be B2C2B businesses, such that they've either set up a marketplace or they set up a B2C business that they want to grow into a B2B business. And I think that some of the best businesses, that are both most the largest value businesses in the world, as well as the businesses with some of the most potential in the world, are a lot of them, B2C2B businesses. Can you talk...walk through that launch of Uber for Business. Maybe you can take us through the journey of some of the different phases you had to go through in order to build it out. Max Crowley:    Yeah, so I moved to San Francisco in late April, early May, 2014. What was happening was...Uber for Business, in some ways, was almost more reactive to what was happening in the market. People were starting to ride for business purposes in droves. So you would use Uber on a Friday night, and then you would go to the airport on a Monday morning, and instead of opting for a taxi or the train, you were like, actually, I'm going to use that thing I used the last three Friday nights, and worked great, and I'm going to expense it. And so companies are actually seeing...you'd have a travel manager, or an expense manager, or an administrator in some capacity of some kind a company, and they'd see what is this Uber thing? Whoa, we've spent blank crazy amounts of money on this. Or it was blank crazy number of expense transactions last month. And then they Google it, and it would be Uber is illegal, insurance, craziness, getting shut down, getting shut down, getting shut down. And they would freak out, and they would send an email to the company and say, "Uber is now banned. You can't use Uber." And, so Uber for Business was sort of both a policy, Hey, we think your employees should be able to use this. Here's our insurance, here's our safety policies, here's everything else that you need to know about that will get you comfortable with us riding. And let's get on phones with your legal teams. Let's get on the phone with your insurance people, whatever else. Let's ink some, whatever that we need to to make sure you're good with this. And then let's actually launch an awesome policy. And then it was also, hey, there's a massive opportunity as for us to grow the business, if we make just awesome. And then, people are expensing this crazy. So let's build out some technology that makes it easier for people to use Uber for Business purposes. And so myself and a few engineers, a couple of other people, started to run at this project. And, yearh, we ended up building a big business - billions of dollars will go through this platform this year. It's global, we have hundreds of people on it. We've got multiple products, we've got integrations at the consumer level that make it easier for people to switch between rides. We've got easier ways for people to expense rides. We've got products for small teams, big teams. We've got enterprise products. We've got offshoots like Uber events where you can buy a promo codes. Uber Health, which allows you to ride, allows rides to be HIPAA compliant - rides from the hospital, or nursing homes, or something like that. And so, it's crazy. It's awesome. And it's definitely a thing. At the same time, it was crazy hard...It's not by any means...it's huge, it's great. Building a B2B business at a consumer company is surpremely difficult. And I think the speed and demand that naturally comes from people that are used to consumer stuff, versus how long it takes to build up B2B functionality is brutal. And so, I think what we got into with some tailspins at times, where the expectations were just misaligned. And the time it should take to grow a B2B product from scratch to working with a Fortune 500 company, is actually a long time. But if you've got a consumer mindset and you're one of the fast growing companies ever, the expectation is you can work with the Fortune 500 company on day three. And that's that thing. I think the other piece of that Uber was awesome, and so we were in some ways competing with ourselves. Was there really a need for an enterprise product? Which is a bit of an existential thing that, I still don't totally know the answer to. I mean, obviously I've got a lot of ideas for what it can be. But it was a very unique thing. And I think we did build a lot of those things that did work with the consumer side. It's a difficult challenge, we worked really hard at it, and learned a ton - it was a learning in a lot of ways, and it wasn't easy. Naber:  Cool. Give us two things that you did, that you guys think you ended up doing really well that were some of the difference makers. And then we'll talk about two of the biggest things you've learned as well. Max Crowley:    I mean, feeding the beast on the consumer side. People are doing a thing already. Make that thing easier, make that thing more awesome. Don't try and change behavior, or create new hurdles, or whatever. It seems obvious, but it's totally not when you're in the belly of the beast. I mean that's just again, no brainer, but very not obvious, when you're in it...All the other commercial applications of Uber was really fascinating because you're creating new use cases, not displacing or getting in the way of...And Uber is such a massive, crazy platform that...and no it's starting to happen, which is great, but partnering with Mass Transit, partnering with Commercial Real Estate, UberPool by companies to actually decrease traffic and actually get people pooling together. I mean those are some of the sort of...The Uber Health stuff, hospital visits, non-emergency medical transport is just...massive, massive businesses, that are unreliable today. I think these are areas that are really the commercialization of the Uber platform that's are just scratching the surface of what that is today. Naber:  Fascinating. Love it. That's great man. All right. We're going to round this out, and you have a few minutes left. We're going to do rapid fire questions. You invest in and work with a lot of businesses - at an early stage, mid stage, some later stage, and you're great at it. Using your experience from Uber, what are the two or three most common pieces of advice that you give to businesses that you invest in and that you work with? Max Crowley:    Act. Action. Move. Move. Do it. Sitting still is not a good idea. So, obviously you want to be calculated and try to not make a lot of mistakes and be sloppy, but if you can try and be in the details and keep moving, even though that's a different difficult balance, it's the right thing...it's the thing you need to train early, because it's if anything is easy, it's probably a mistake. If anything's easy, it's probably going to bite you in the ass. The thing that you need - your next sales person, or your next cofounder for your project, or your next hire, they're probably not calling your cell phone, right? They're probably not the next LinkedIn request you're going to receive. And so be wary of anything that come visit comes easy. But be in the details, build that muscle, and keep moving. And if you can try and do that, you're still gonna make some mistakes. People say action is better than inaction, and I believe that. And then simultaneously just be in the weeds being the details, put in the extra time. It's not easy. You're tired of times. I'm tired all the time. I don't want to miss out on things or, whatever, and I do. But always bites me in the ass. And so I learned it from my old boss, Emil Michael - the details matter, the details matter, the details matter. And so it's just keep moving but staying the details as much as you can. I mean it's almost a little bit of a shake. You've got to try and be doing that, or it'll bite you. Naber:  All right. Awesome man. That's great. Last question. You've hired a lot of people, Max, a lot of people,. at scale. What are your best one or two pieces of advice for those hiring at scale? Max Crowley:    I mean, referrals. Maybe it seems obvious, but I think when you're thinking about hiring, when I think about hiring, I just start to talk to a lot of people. So, again, it gets into this - your next hire is probably not your next LinkedIn requests. But your next LinkedIn request might lead your next hire. So, start talking to people, start getting your vision...by the way, your vision and your pitch, and all these different things are gonna be better by the fifth conversation from the first conversation. So get out there and start doing this, start getting your reps. And I think the best people, for the most part, have been people that I've met through other people, or you just start to weave this thing...or you just get smarter about what the profile is you're looking for. And so then maybe the resume you get, it'll be more obvious. But again, it's this action thing. So that I would say a is number one. And then number two is, integrity matters. I mean, it probably seems obvious, but you really want to try...I think it's basically, try to do the right thing, or at least feel you can defend it, that thing that you did. Because you don't want to draw sort of lines in the sand, but if you don't feel comfortable defending basically to the death, what you've done, it's probably not a good idea. And guess what? It's going to surface. Everything you do, every email you send, every thing you say, everything you do is going to come to the surface. And so the ready to defend it. You sometimes need to push the envelope. You sometimes need to do different things. You gotta do what you gotta do. You gotta make your judgments, you gotta live with your decisions, but you also need to be able to defend them. So, that could be that you break a rule, but be ready to defend it to the masses. And if you're not, then you shouldn't do it. So I think, judgment, self awareness, honesty, integrity - obviously obvious. Again, it's a details thing, and if you miss on that it will hurt you. So I just try to surround myself with people that are great. And you're in these relationships with these folks for a lifetime, oftentimes. So, I just try and surround myself with people that are, that are awesome and are better than me, and I love being around. Naber:  Hey everybody, thanks so much for listening. If you appreciated and enjoyed the episode, go ahead and make a comment on the post for the episode on LinkedIn. If you love the Naberhood Podcast, we'd love for you to subscribe, rate, and give us a five star review on iTunes. Until next time - go get it.