Podcast appearances and mentions of joe what

Episode 41 sees us return to discuss Intel after the recent update from their new CEO. In Episode 31 European DGI was unsure about the direction and leadership of the company. Has his sentiment changed?

Have you ever wondered why your product or service didn’t get much traction on social media even though you post all the time? According to Michelle Knight, it’s all about your personal brand (or lack thereof). Maybe you’ve heard the term before, but what does “personal brand” really mean? Luckily, Michelle has us covered! She’ll tell us all about why you need a personal brand and how to craft one. In Build Something More, we talk Star Wars in the pre-show and social media dos/don’ts, traveling, and schooling in the post-show. This has been one of my favorite conversations so far this year! (more…) View on separate page Transcript Joe:Real quick before we get started, I want to tell you about theBuild Something Weeklynewsletter. It is weekly, it is free, and you will get tips, tricks, and tools delivered directly to your mailbox. I will recap the current week’s episode and all of the takeaways, I’ll give you a top story, content I wrote, and then some recommendations that I’ve been using that I think you should check out. So it is free, it is a weekly, it’s over at howibuilt.it/subscribe. Go ahead and sign up over athowibuilt.it/subscribe. Intro:Hey, everybody, and welcome to Episode 210 of How I Built It, the podcast that asks, How did you build that? Today’s sponsors areMindsize,Restrict Content Pro, andTextExpander, who you will be hearing about later on in the show. Now, if you are aBuild Something Clubmember, if you’re subscribed to Build Something More but you happen to be picking up the normal feed, definitely get the Build Something More feed because we, Michelle and I, had a fantastic pre-show conversation, which is a show first. I’m sending out the pre-show because it was really good. Speaking of, my guest is Michelle Knight. She is the personal branding and marketing strategist over atBrandmerry. Michelle, how are you today? Michelle Knight:Oh, great. Thanks for having me. Loved our little pre-show chat. Joe: Likewise. Likewise. Thanks for joining me on the show here. Thanks for joining us. It was a lot of fun and nerd culture and WandaVision. First of all, if you’re not watching WandaVision, you should watch WandaVision. I guess by the time this comes out, we will actually be behind. So, if you haven’t seen it, spoiler alert. But if you’re all caught up, you know, don’t tell past us what happened. That’s what we’re talking about today. We’re talking today about how to market your business without relying on social media, which I’m really excited about. I was looking at your website, again, personal branding consultant. I think this is a really good topic to talk about because I feel like I was telling my students about this like 10 years ago. I was teaching at the college level, college freshmen a computer literacy course, and I’m like, “You need to have a personal brand.” And they’re like, “Who cares?” But now fast forward to 2021, I feel like that’s even more important. So before we dive into the kind of social media stuff, I suspect having a strong personal brand will help with that. Why don’t you tell us a little bit more about what you do there? Michelle Knight:Yeah, absolutely. I founded my companyBrandmerryright after my son was born in 2016 out of just the need to be home, to just not want to commute to work anymore. I had a background in PR, background in communications and I dove headfirst into creating my online business with really kind of wearing this coach consultant hat. I struggled a lot. I had no idea what I was doing. I felt like I was mimicking everybody else. I spent months creating a website that then didn’t look like or sound like me, which is highly relatable to a lot of people. About nine months into it, when I was planning on leaving my nine to five, I was like, “Something needs to shift.” So I started to do more and more research outside as well as some internal research to figure out who I was and what I really wanted to build a brand around. And everything really started to shift for me at that point in time. I started to show up in a different way, I started to really express myself, I did more live videos and I started to share more stories. And instantly, I saw connections start to happen. The same people who had been in my community for months were buying from me suddenly. And I didn’t change the offer. All I did was change how I was showing up and creating a brand that was a representation of that. So that’s what I really fell in love with personal branding and storytelling, and I spent, the next three or four years really focusing on that aspect, teaching entrepreneurs specifically how to figure out, number one, who they are and how they want to show up online and then creating a brand and a product suite that’s in alignment with that mission. And then I’ve moved in the last couple of years to focus on, now, how do we market that? Because you realize really quickly that you can have an amazing personal brand, you can have an amazing product, but if you don’t know how to effectively market it, then nobody else is going to know about it. Joe:I love that. And it’s so funny that you mentioned that because I feel like between the pre-show and this you must have been listening into the solo episode I recorded right before this, which wasEpisode 205, where I talked about my failed Patreon experiment. It’s the same thing. I started this podcast in 2016. I went self-employed in 2017 after my daughter was born, and I thought, “I need to launch memberships. I need to launch a membership for my podcast.” And I just copied everyone else’s benefits, everyone else’s levels. And I’m like, “How come no one’s buying?” And then I came to realize I’m just promising a bunch of stuff that I don’t even know if I can deliver or not. So I took that down, and I’ve changed directions. Well, now people are actually buying my membership because it reflects me and what I can offer. So I think that’s fantastic. Michelle Knight:Well, I tell people all the time that people don’t buy the product or the service, there’s a million products and services that are exactly the same across the board. If people really just focused on that, then they would just buy the first thing that they see. But it’s about that connection, it’s about that relationship. And that’s why personal branding is so important. Joe:Yeah, absolutely. As people listen to this, I know that’s something I struggled with early on when I was freelancing and making websites for people was, how do I write my copy? Do I write “I”? Do I write “we”? Who is this? Is it the royal we? So maybe we can start there? How you present yourself, as you said, is so integral to connecting with customers, with selling more products and services? I or we? Michelle Knight:I think it depends. I think when you’re starting a business and you’re the sole CEO and face of that business, I always recommend going with “I”. Primarily because, who is the “we”? You and your imaginary team, probably not in the beginning. You’re the decision-maker at that point in time. The “I” allows for more of that personal connection. If you’re working with a company, I think you go back and forth. If we’re speaking on behalf of the company, I have a background in nonprofit management, if you’re speaking on behalf of the nonprofit and the work that they do, it’s a “we”. But if your CEO is stepping out and saying something, sharing their story, sharing what they’re doing, it’s an “I”. And then I guess as your business evolves, and I see this a lot, especially as someone who has added more team members and is moving more into a company role, I go back and forth between the two. If it’s me, I’m showing up, I’m sharing a story, I’m focusing on connecting, I’m the one telling the story. But if I’m talking about the team as a whole and we made this decision, then I can share that. So right out of the gate, I say default to “I”. As you grow, incorporate the “we.” Joe:I think that’s great. And that’s generally the advice that I’ve recommended as well just because, you know, there are benefits to working one on one with a freelancer. And maybe they’re not available 24/7 but they are there to fully understand your business to be invested in a way that some giant agency can’t be. Michelle Knight:Totally. Joe:Awesome. So when it comes to building your personal brand, we’re not just talking about website copy and “I” or “we.” What are we talking about? If I wanted to start investing in more of a personal brand for me, where would I start? Would I look inwardly? Would I do some research into things I should consider? What does the process look like? Michelle Knight:It’s kind of all of that. I like to say that branding as a whole, and I think it’s important to say, is an experience. I think very old school and what I thought even just five years ago was like, “Let me get my website up. Let me choose my colors and my fonts. If I do that everything will be fine.” And we’ve really learned. And now that information is so readily available to us, that it’s not about those things. It really is about the experience that we’re creating. And those things can help with that process, but at the end of the day, it’s that voice, it’s that mission, it’s how we’re carrying through everything that we’re doing, from website design to coffee to our products and our offers. The method that I teach is first to look inward because as a recovering perfectionist, I have a tendency to go outward, and say, “Oh, what are you doing? That seems to be working. Let me just copy that.” And that’s what happened in the beginning of my business. So I recommend going inward first. The first practice that I love to guide people through is just what’s your story because one of the first pieces of copy that everyone should really write is their brand story. And it’s one of the most fun things that you can create in the beginning. So going inward and saying, “What is my story? What has led me to where I am today? What’s the purpose behind me wanting to put my work out in the world?” As I mentioned before, I’m from a nonprofit background. So I always recommend my clients establish a mission for their brand. What are your values? These are the things that you want to identify right out of the gate so that you can make sure that you’re always showing up in those pieces—your brand is always showing up. Then the second piece of this is, all right, now, who do you want to attract? A lot of people forget this step of the personal brand, and then we start showing up sharing content and stories and it’s not resonating with people because it’s just about me, me, me, me, me, me, me, I, I, I, I, when what we share needs to resonate with the people that we want to attract. So, you’re not showing up and just like writing your biography online. You’re building a business. So the stories that you share, the content that you share, even the colors that you choose needs to come down to, you know, how do I want my audience to feel? What are they seeking? What are they looking for? What’s happened in their life? That portion of it is where we get more into research, you know, the dreaded ideal client research that everyone hates. But I swear you have to do it. I personally love it. But that’s where that piece comes in. So then you combine those two things together, and you say, “All right, now let me decide what offer can I create based on my expertise that my audience absolutely needs? Because I know them so well at this point. What types of messages can I create that showcase my expertise and my strengths that resonate with my ideal customer. And so everything then kind of pulls on those two pieces as you build your business. Sponsor:This episode is brought to you byRestrict Content Pro. If you need a fast, easy way to set up a membership site for yourself or your clients, look no further than theRestrict Content ProWordPress plugin. Easily create premium content for members using your favorite payment gateway, manage members, send member-only emails, and more. You can create any number of subscription packages, including free levels and free trials. But that’s not all. Their extensive add-ons library allows you to do even more, like drip out content, connect with any number of CRMs and newsletter tools, including ConvertKit and Mailchimp and integrate with other WordPress plugins like bbPress. Since theBuild Something Clubrolled out earlier this year, you can bet it’s usingRestrict Content Pro. And I have used all of the things mentioned here in this ad read. I have created free levels. I’ve created coupons. I use ConvertKit and I’m using it with bbPress for the forums. I’m a big fan of the team, and I know they do fantastic work. The plugin has worked extremely well for me and I was able to get memberships up and running very quickly. Right now, they are offering a rare discount for how I built it listeners only: 20% off your purchase when you use RCPHOWIBUILTIT at checkout. That’s RCPHOWIBUILTIT, all one word. If you want to learn more aboutRestrict Content Proand start making money with your own membership site today, head on over tohowibuilt.it/rcp, that’showibuilt.it/rcp. Thanks toRestrict Content Profor supporting the show. And now let’s get back to it. Joe:This is the exact thing that I said, again, in that episode I just recorded. “I made the Patreon copy about me and I started my own business and I want to make content full time. And you should give me money so I can make content full time.” And I just read it back recently and I’m like, “What was I even thinking?” Who cares? Who cares that I want to make content? People want good content, and they will support good content, but they’re not just going to give me money to create it because I want to create, I should say. Michelle Knight:Exactly. Unless you’re a celebrity, and then maybe they’ll be so obsessed with you and your life that they’re like, “Yeah, sign me up to watch behind the scenes.” But the majority of us are not there. And I think too, just circling back to what you said, everyone wants to know what’s in it for me? What’s the benefit? So even if you are at a stage where maybe you’re sharing behind-the-scenes stuff, why should someone pay you to see that? What’s the benefit to them? So no matter what you’re doing with your copy with your content, even with storytelling, where you might be saying, “My son was one month postpartum when I started my business,” you still gotta turn it back around to your audience and provide value to them so it’s not like a talking head situation. Joe:Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I think that’s fantastic. And then looking inwardly, I think that’s really important. A book that has just resonated with me ever since the day I read it was “Start With Why” by Simon Sinek. And it’s what you said there. A lot of the same things. It’s figure out why you’re doing something. Establish your mission. And then everything should focus around that. Now, a lot of the listeners here are small business owners. A lot are in the WordPress space, but a lot aren’t. I guess that was a weird thing to say. That’s redundant. A lot of people are definitely small business owners who maybe don’t have the time or resources to fully invest in something like this. Are there one or two things that they should really focus on first and then maybe build out over time? Michelle Knight:Yeah. What I always recommend is get super clear on those two pieces that we just talked about. You understand, like I said, your mission, craft, understand what has led you to where you are. Because doing that story work allows you to pull on the strengths and the experiences that you’ve had, which then you can share through your copy and your content. And then you’ve got to do the ideal client research. Don’t tell me you don’t have time for it, because you’re going to suffer. People come to me and they’re like, “I don’t know what content to share.” And I’m like, “Do your ideal client research.” “I don’t know how to write a better copy.” Do your ideal client research. We always want to think there’s some mystery formula that we just have to follow. But it really is just like do the work, do the dirty work and you’re going to be set up for success in your business. I call it the foundation. One of my first coaches was like, “You shouldn’t use that word. It’s not sexy.” And I was like, “I don’t care.” It’s legit what I’m teaching. You build a foundation like you would a building so that you continue to add to it. And it just topples on top of itself. So those two pieces are key. I tell entrepreneurs all the time you don’t need a perfect website. You don’t need… Designers don’t come at me. But you don’t need to hire a designer in your first year of business. There are so many tools out there. Go into Canva, put some colors in there, and make a logo. You don’t even need a frickin logo, which branding people always come at me for that too. It really comes down to your copy and your messaging. If you can write clearly to your ideal customer, you can have a white background on a sales page with black copy and a photo and a button and you will still make sales. Joe:Yep, absolutely. What you said there really reminds me of like, get super clear on your mission. If you don’t do the ideal client research, you’re wasting your time. It reminds me of just last night, I woke up in the middle of the night. My son was hungry, he was crying. I didn’t want him to wake up my daughter. So I ran downstairs and I pulled a bottle out of the fridge. Now I knew I should have warmed it up. Because he doesn’t like cold formula. But I was like it’ll be fine. And I tried feeding him for like 10 minutes and he kept rejecting it and then I had to go back downstairs. And then he drank it all. But I wasted probably 20 minutes there. And I knew. So don’t serve your business cold formula I guess is what I’m trying to say. Michelle Knight:I love, love, love that analogy. And you wasted 20 minutes, but entrepreneurs waste years. Joe:Me too. I’ve done it. Michelle Knight:I start working with entrepreneurs and they’re like, “I have a website. I post every day on social media. I’m doing the things.” And when we nearly get down to it, there are gaps in their foundational pieces. That small tweaks fix and then suddenly it’s like, “Oh, sweet. Now I just need to show up and keep running with this and scale my business.” Joe:Yeah, absolutely. You mentioned social media. Part of the reason that I had you on the show, which by the way, Brittany Lin, and I know I’ve mentioned her on the show before, she’s helped me out. She’s helped me figure out my kind of ideal client stuff and the niches I want to be in, connected us. And the thing that caught me the most was how to market your business without relying on social media. I think I can speak for a lot of people when I say, “I learned a long time ago that if you build it, they will come. That field of dreams marketing does not work. As a developer, that was a very hard lesson for me to learn. But then I just moved on to another fallacy, which is if I tweet it, they will come. I thought if I launched a course, if I tweet that I launched the course, people will see it’s great and they will buy it. But that’s not really how it works. Michelle Knight:No, unfortunately. I mean, fortunately for me because I teach the strategies, but unfortunately for us as entrepreneurs. Like I said, I was right there too. I spent eight months with my husband trying to figure out this whole website thing. And then I launched it, like full champagne toast video on Instagram, like full thing, nobody came. My mom maybe. And that website even sat there for months and months and months and wasn’t getting consistent traffic. So, I think like you were saying, one of the first things is that we build a website, and then we’re like, “All the people will find my website.” But it doesn’t work like that. So then we go to social media, which is really the first thing that we’re taught when we want to start a business. “Just post on Facebook, post on Instagram, post on Twitter, and people will find you.” But the reality is that people are using those platforms to find things. They are using those platforms for connection. So a lot of entrepreneurs use social media solely as the top level for getting in front of their cold audience and attracting that. The brand awareness stage basically. When really social media at emphasis should be more on that connection stage, moving your audience through the buying process, the personal branding aspect, then watching you on Insta stories. Are you making a funny reel? Are those different things? That’s where it should be. But so many entrepreneurs were focused on it to find new people, and then build their email platform. And then they grow by like five people every two weeks, and they get frustrated, when there’s actually a better way as I have come to find out. Joe:Yes. We’re going to talk about that. Perhaps in Build Something More we can talk about maybe effective social media uses, right? Because like you mentioned reels, and I’m like, “I don’t know how to use reels.” Somebody just invited me to Clubhouse today and I don’t know what I’m doing there. In Build Something More, we’ll talk about specific social media platforms, what to do, what not to do. But you have a better way besides just tweeting or writing on Facebook, “Hey, my website. Come check out my website.” My friends and family don’t care that I sell podcast courses. They don’t really know I have a podcast. Michelle Knight:It’s not that I hate social media. And I tell people this, I actually love it. I love hanging out on there and having fun. But it should not be what we rely on to build our email list, to attract consistent leads, and convert to sales. You think of a triangle, an upside-down triangle, we’ve all seen it like a pyramid, you’ve got that cold traffic coming in the top. That has to be consistent. Otherwise, the bottoms just going to dry up. You’re not going to have anybody moving into a paying customer. So these more evergreen strategies that I love to teach are the strategies that allow those consistent leads to come in without requiring you to consistently create new content every single day. Joe:I was going to say you’re speaking my language because my wife, and listeners now, my wife’s a nurse, she works three 12 hour shifts a week, which means on those days I’m watching my kids. So I’m not working. I don’t have time to create that kind of new content. Evergreen strategies sound like exactly what I need. Michelle Knight:This came about for me on accident really, because I had done the things, as we’ve talked about, I built the business and I did hit six figures in my business in a year through a lot of exhaustive hustle. I was raising a baby, I was working nine to five for the first nine months. So I was optimizing my strategies, I had some systems in place, but I was like, “There’s no way I can grow past this, and maintain this same idea.” So that’s when I really started to look at things like Pinterest, search engine optimization, the power of Google and blogging, YouTube video, or more of the search engine platforms where people are seeking out support in these areas, getting them, hooking them and then nurturing and building my community through fun content. Sponsor:This episode is brought to you byTextExpander. It’s a new year and you can start off on the right foot by reclaiming your time. WithTextExpander, you can save time by converting any text you type into keyboard shortcuts called snippets. Say goodbye to repetitive text entry, spelling and message errors, and trying to remember the right thing to say. WithTextExpander, you can say the right thing in just a few keystrokes. Better than copy and paste, better than scripts and templates,TextExpandersnippets allow you to maximize your time by getting rid of the repetitive things you type while still customizing and personalizing your messages.TextExpandercan be used in any platform, any app, anywhere you type. Take back your time and increase your productivity in the new year. And let me just say that snippets is not all it does. With advanced snippets, you can create fill-ins, pop up fields, and much more. You can even use JavaScript or AppleScript. I can type out full instructions for my podcast editor, hi, Joel, in just a few keystrokes. Another one of my favorite and most used snippets is PPT. This will take whatever text I have on my keyboard and convert it to plain text so I’m no longer fighting formatting. Plus, if you have employees or contractors, you can useTextExpanderto manage and share snippets with them so you all get it right every time. I’ve recently started sharingTextExpandersnippets with my virtual assistant. This year, How I Built It is focusing on being productive while working from home.TextExpanderis the perfect tool for that. Plus, they’re providing resources and blog posts to help you make the most of their tool and be productive.TextExpanderis available on Mac OS, Windows, Chrome, iPhone, and iPad. If you’ve been curious about tryingTextExpanderor simple automation in general, now is the time. Listeners can get 20% off their first year. Just visittextexpander.com/podcastand let them know that I sent you. Joe:Maybe let’s pick one. Maybe let’s do YouTube, right? Michelle Knight:Okay. Joe:You said that you found YouTube as… that’s the number two search engine in the world. Google is number one, and then Google owns YouTube is number two. People go there to learn things. So if I’m trying to develop an effective strategy for building an audience through these evergreen strategies, is YouTube a good channel for that? Michelle Knight:It is. I always tell people to really think about how they like to create content. So some people love video. I’m one of those people. And I love video to be my core piece of content. So one of the things that I teach is repurposing. And people call me the repurposing Queen because I can take one piece of content and I can turn it into like 32 pieces of content. Joe:Awesome. Michelle Knight:So some people like video, some people write and so they prefer blogging. Truly the strategies are the same across the board. So that’s what’s cool. I mean, the way you upload your title, and maybe your keywords is different placement but the process that you go through is the same. And the reason that these all work, again, is because there’s search engines. Same with Pinterest, which a lot of people don’t think about. But Pinterest is where you go, you type in the search bar, it’s all keyword optimized and so people will find your content. I don’t know about you, but I don’t search for anything on Facebook. No. So when you’re thinking about these different platforms, and I’m happy to share some of the steps on that, but what I really want to drive home to is that you’re hitting people at every single stage of the buying process. So rather than just attracting somebody who’s maybe looking for content, we’re also attracting and getting in front of people who are ready to buy. So there’s the stages of the buying process. Someone understands they’ve got a problem, and so they’re looking for options to solve their problem. Then they move into the research stage, which is where people are googling and looking on YouTube and stuff like that, then they’re aware of a solution. So now they’re trying to explore, like, what’s the best solution for them. They’ve figured it out and now they’re shopping around to figure out which one they’re going to buy. And then they become a buyer. There are people who are at stage five, who are like, “I have my money, I want to give it to someone.” I’m telling you, they’re going to Google, they’re typing in what they want, and then they’re hitting up the first 30 people. And I know that because that’s where most of my clients come from is just searching in branding coach, and landing on my website, strong personal brand, investing the money. That’s what’s so cool about the whole concept of evergreen SEO optimized content is you’re able to get people in every single stage, whether they’re just looking for help with three tips to write a better story, they might land on a blog post, or they’re just ready to pull out their credit card. Joe:I think that’s fantastic. And it’s so funny that you mentioned Pinterest because I hadChelsea Clarkeon the show a few episodes ago and that was her trade secret. Michelle Knight:Yes, mine too. Joe:She was like, “Not enough people are using Pinterest.” So I think that’s so funny. I told Chelsea I would look into it now. I definitely will look into it. That’s incredible. This is really interesting that you say that. Because again, the conventional wisdom says like, “You need to get people at the top of the funnel and you introduce yourself. And then you get them on your mailing list and then you market to them for like 14 years and then maybe they’re right on. But people who are ready to spend money, those are probably the best people to directly market to in the short term. I don’t want to say that the nurturing is bad, obviously, because it’s great. But if people are willing to spend their money, they might as well spend it with you. Michelle Knight:Totally. The nurturing part is so fun. I’ve had things where I’m like, “Oh, you’re cool. Let me just see what you’re about and I’ll buy down the road.” But I think as a business owner, it’s important to understand that your ideal customer could be at these different stages. And when you create this evergreen type of content, you’re able to show up and pull them in no matter what stage they’re at, rather than social media, which is totally different. Not to mention actually getting it in front of people who are searching for it is near impossible. So that’s why these strategies are so helpful in sustainably growing your business, getting those consistent leads, and making that consistent sale. Joe:I think that’s super important. Again, if we’re talking about YouTube, just, for example, people are finding that evergreen content. I know because I see the comments come in on my YouTube videos, the most popular ones, and it’s like, “How to do separate audio tracks with Zoom.” Or my friends are like, “Dude, I searched on YouTube and you were the first one to come up. Great video.” How do I… how does one… I don’t want to make this seem like it’s about me. I was always that guy in class who raised his hand and asked a question because I knew I had that question but I assumed like half of the class also had that question. Michelle Knight:Totally. Joe:How do I get them from YouTube to mailing list? Or is from YouTube to mailing list even the right move? You say all these people are at different stages. What’s my call to action post-YouTube video? Michelle Knight:I always recommend email list. Because I always say an email is the first investment that someone will make in your business. And when we start thinking about email addresses as currency, everything changes. It pains me when people are like, “Come follow me on Instagram.” Or like, “Just like this video,” and that’s it. It’s like, no, if someone’s watched the end of your video for YouTube specifically and they’re engaged, they’re ready for the next step. So give them that opportunity. So across the board, no matter what you do, I always recommend some sort of lead magnet, some way to get somebody on your email list. And in service base, that’s typically something free. A free guide, a free video free something. But it can also be product-based. A coupon. Take a quiz. There’s all kinds of different things that you can do. But that’s really important because people are typically like, “This is great. I want more of this.” And we want to get them on our email list. Because although your email list is maybe on a platform that you don’t control, the reality is you do have more control over that information than Facebook or Instagram. If Instagram went down, and that was all that you were using to get in touch with your community, you would be screwed. But if you have an email list on the back end, you can download that spreadsheet, move to a different platform email, get really creative with it. So across the board, I recommend that. And because these pieces of content are evergreen, I very rarely recommend pitching a product or a service unless it too is evergreen. So if you have a course that you sell all the time or a membership site that people can join or even something that opens multiple times a year, and you’re just saying hey, “I offer this inside of my program, go here to learn more.” And then if they land their doors are open great. If not, they can join a waitlist. But yeah, across the board, always, always email list. I’m a firm believer in that one. Joe:Awesome. I’m really glad to hear that because that’s also what I’ve been preaching. I’m like, I’m a guy I know some things, but it’s always good to hear from the experts. But also I haven’t been good about that. I always end my YouTube videos with “like” and “smash that like button.” I’ve never said that for real. Michelle Knight:Thank you. Joe:“Like and subscribe,” and then my tagline. I’ll have like a card right so people can go, or the icon on the end screen. I’ve put a lot of time into my end screens, but saying it verbally in the video is super important, right? If you like what I’m talking about, get the free guide for whatever, 5 Zoom tips that’ll make you look even better. I just thought of that lead magnet now… Michelle Knight:I like it. Joe:By the time this comes out… Michelle Knight:It might be really valuable for a lot of people today. Joe:Yeah. I think that’s really important. And I really needed to hear that because at first, I wasn’t sure. But you’re right about owning your platform. I export my subscriber list like once every six weeks, which makes me sound like a crazy person. I use ConvertKit and I assume they’re not going anywhere because they’re really great. But if they disappear one day, I’m losing a bunch of email addresses. Michelle Knight:I use ConvertKit too. We do the same thing. We’re really adamant about our email list over here. I say we now because my team member actually does it. I don’t have to do it anymore. But we not only download but clean our list quite frequently. We get a lot of subscribers every day and I invest in advertising and some of those different avenues as well. I want to make sure that the people who are there actually want to be there. So we frequently like to clean our list to help with that as well. So there’s a little bonus tip for those of you. Sponsor:This episode is brought to you byMindsize. 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Or if you’re a freelancer or agency who feels in over your head or with an eCommerce build, their agency support plan is built specifically for you. There were a few times in my career where I really could have used that. They’ll take a high stress situation and help you relax while still delivering for your client. So check outMindsizeover atmindsize.comtoday. They will help you make more money, whether you need an eCommerce store, whether you need to improve your current eCommerce store, or if you build eCommerce stores for others. That’smindsize.com. Thanks so much toMindsizefor supporting the show. Joe:We are moving into the tips for listeners segment of the show. You’ve given us so much. But let’s say that somebody have taken your first two pieces of advice. Look inward, what’s your story, figure out your ideal client. What’s the next step? What should they do from there? Michelle Knight:I think from there, it really becomes creating content, we want to wait to create content until… I feel like I’m beating a dead horse, right? …we have the website up or the thing. But if you want to sell you need to have people to sell to. One of the best things that you can do once you’ve got a little solid ground with “Who am I? Who do I want to attract? What’s my mission? What am I offering?” then start putting content out there so that you can start building your audience. The first thing that I recommend is focus on quality content. Focus on things people are searching for. I’m holding my eyes right now—people can’t see me—because I’m trying to meditate. People always say, “What do I talk about? What do I create content about?” I’m like, “Go Google. See what people are searching for.” If you really want to show up, go into your niche and figure out what people need help with. There are so many free tools out there. I’m going to tell you some of them now.AnswerThePublicis an awesome free tool. All of these give you a limited amount of searches every day, but still just go do it every day for like five days, and you’ll be solid for 90 days.AnswerThePublicwill tell you the top questions being asked on Google. And you can type in your industry, you can type in your ideal customer, you can type in pain points, and they will tell you exactly what people are asking for. You can use a tool called Keywords Everywhere, which is a small investment but amazing when you’re wanting to do SEO. It’ll tell you how many monthly searches keywords get. You know you might be like, “This is great,” and it gets zero searches a month. It’s really going to help you. You can change even a little bit of the language, you can get thousand searches a month, and that’s amazing. You can even use YouTube specifically because they will autofill for you. So go to the search bar and type in something relevant to what you’re offering and let it tell you what the top searches are. So doing research and having that strong strategy in place to create content that people are actually searching for is important. And then you put your spin on it. I did a podcast episode the other day on morning routines. It was like pulling teeth from my team to get me to do this because I was like, “I’m not doing fluff content.” And they’re like, “Everyone keeps asking for this. Everyone wants this.” So I put my own spin on it. And it’s been a huge download. And I’ve gotten tons of messages that are like, “Oh my gosh, I love this.” You get to put your own spin on it, but you gotta make sure you’re getting in front of people. It’s the same with subject lines. If your subject line isn’t amazing, no one’s going to open your email, and no one’s going to know about all the goodness that you have. Same with titles of your content. So number one is focus on creating high-value quality content that people are actually searching for. Don’t just pull it out of thin air and be like, “This might be nice.” The good news is, you’ll have a lot of that information because you’ve done the ideal client research. Joe:I have been reminded… because I just do things I think are good ideas. I have been reminded that I am not my ideal customer. It’s something important to remember. This is great advice.AnswerThePublic. I’m definitely going to check that one out because I’ve never heard of it before. Really excited about that.Jennifer Bournwas on the show early on this year and she also talks about joining Facebook groups and even paid communities where people are asking questions of like… communities for your ideal customer, not communities of whatever you do professionally totally. Michelle Knight:Totally. And that’s what reallyAnswerThePubliccan also point you to forums and like Reddit and stuff, so then you can read through that. Full disclaimer. I actually hate Facebook groups. So I love them for paid stuff. Joe:Me too. Michelle Knight:But I don’t have my own account. I just stopped that a long time ago when I learned about evergreen content. But I will go into Facebook groups and just use the search function and just see what questions people are asking for support on and then write a blog post about it. So you’re totally right. It’s a great tool for ideal client research. Joe:That’s awesome. And then one more tool based on YouTube is vidIQ. Have you heard of this one? Michelle Knight:Yes. I love vidIQ. Joe:I think it’s really been helpful for me. I’ve only kind of used it superficially. Just like when I create a video, the extension in Chrome is there, and it’s like suggesting keywords. I really need to dive deep into it, though, because I think that it could be a really valuable tool for me. My channel is monetized now, and the amount I make is more than what they charge monthly. Michelle Knight:There you go. Joe:I think it’s a good investment. Michelle Knight:Well, it’s funny, because that actually is tip number two, which is to actually optimize your content. So you’re creating a high value content, you’re creating content that people are searching for, and then make sure that you’re actually optimizing that content. So no matter what platform evergreen platform you’re choosing will focus on YouTube, specifically, there are tools out there to tell you and give you tips on what keywords to use. Think about optimizing the title for search. The title, for instance, I might write a blog post that has a different title than a video of the same content that I put on YouTube, because I’m really paying attention to optimizing it for each of the platforms. Your thumbnail, right? Like making sure that these pieces are in place because they play a huge role in your content actually getting seen. We think like, “We’re going to have an amazing video, and everyone’s going to find it.” It really comes down to title and keywords and first impression. And that’s it. Those could be great and your video could suck and you’ll still rank as number one. We want it to be great all across the board so people want to hear more from you, but make sure when you’re creating this content, you’re taking the time to optimize it. Whether that’s SEO for blogging, writing your description, making sure your title and your keywords and your headers are in there. Same with Pinterest. Same with YouTube. Joe:Awesome. The YouTube thumbnail super-duper important. Michelle Knight:It’s crazy. Joe:I never thought about it until I noticed that all the people who were making similar content to me had them making a face and then pointing. Michelle Knight:It’s like a whole thing right now. Joe:It’s usually a screengrab of me that I like cut out and put but I just can’t… I saw one where I was like one finger up and looking like a teacher, and I’m like, “You look so unnatural.” But I’m doing my best. vidIQ is cool because it’ll show your thumbnail embedded with other thumbnails too in a search. Michelle Knight:Well, now you can do like gifs thumbnails. Joe:What? Michelle Knight:Yeah. You can do moving thumbnails. Joe:Breaking news. I did not know that. Michelle Knight:Breaking news. Joe:Awesome. I’m going to look into that too. I got a lot of homework for this episode. Michelle Knight:Sorry. Joe:Michelle, this has been so much fun. I do need to ask you my favorite question, which is, do you have any trade secrets for us? Michelle Knight:Oh, man. I’m going to bring it back to the beginning on the storytelling piece. This is my secret. This is my secret. Not enough people do it. I’m going to challenge you that every piece of content that you create has a micro-story in it somewhere. Now that micro-story can be in the introduction, where you introduce what you’re sharing, and why you’re sharing it. That micro-story can be in the actual education piece of it. It can be at the end. But the thing with storytelling that is so amazing is the effect that it has in our audience’s brain. So when you incorporate even just one single sentence of storytelling in your content, your audience is 22 times more likely to remember it. I don’t know about you, but I want people to remember my stuff. So even just that simple thing… There’s neural co… I nerd out on this stuff. But there’s neural coupling that happens when we hear other people’s stories. So our brains are activated, dopamine is released. We feel good. And it doesn’t have to be an earth-shaking story as I like to say. It’s so small relatable moments. So that has been my secret. Every piece of content that I create, every podcast that I’m on, everything that you will see for me has a tiny little bit of storytelling in it, whether it’s mine or my ideal customer’s, or what I like to call future casting, which is like a pretend made up kind of figurative story because it’s so, so powerful, and will serve you on both branding and the marketing level and selling honestly. Joe:That’s awesome. Micro story. I love it. As you say that, something has clicked for me. Because one of my most popular pieces of content right now is a blog post that’s titled “Why Gear Matters Least when You’re Starting a Podcast. I tell a story about how growing up my favorite baseball player was Paul O’Neill and I wanted to bat like Paul O’Neill, but me trying to mimic him and look and sound like him, quote-unquote, didn’t work for me because first of all, I’m not a lefty. Second of all, he’s very tall. So I just think that’s great. Challenge accepted. Michelle Knight:All right. Joe:As I write more blog posts, I’m going to include a micro-story in each. I’m glad you said in the educational piece or at the end. Mine was towards the end. And I was questioning that. I’m like, “Should I put it up front to hook the reader?” But I think the headline hooked them enough to keep reading. Michelle Knight:It always depends on what you’re presenting. Sometimes if you have to give a backstory, especially like we talked about, educational content does really well because that’s what people are searching for. Sometimes you want to set that up. If we’re sharing a misconception or mistakes or how to do something, we might want to share our journey with that. But sometimes you can just hook by asking questions or speaking directly to your ideal customer. But yeah, no matter where, put that story in there. I don’t care where it is. Joe:Awesome. Michelle, this has been an absolute pleasure. If people want to learn more about you, where can they find you? Instagram? Michelle Knight:Yeah, definitely find me on Instagram. You can go to my website, which is fully optimized. It’sbrandmerry.com. There’s links to all the things, tons of blog and video content on there, a freebie so you can join my email list You know, all the things. Joe:All the good stuff. Awesome. I will include that and all sorts of links that we talked about in the show notes over athowibuilt.it/210. If you want to hear Michelle and I talk more about the do’s and don’ts of specific platforms, maybe a little bit about travel because you mentioned something interesting in the pre-show, you can sign up for theBuild Something Clubover andbuildsomething.club. It’s a paltry $5 a month, and you get lots of really fantastic content, and a custom member chip—it’s a poker chip with a podcast logo on it. I love it. But in any case, Michelle, thanks so much for joining us today. I really appreciate it. Michelle Knight:Thank you for having me. Joe: And thanks to our sponsors: Mindsize, Restrict Content Pro, and TextExpander. Thank you so much for listening. And until next time, get out there and build something. Joe:Real quick before we get started, I want to tell you about theBuild Something Weeklynewsletter. It is weekly, it is free, and you will get tips, tricks, and tools delivered directly to your mailbox. I will recap the current week’s episode and all of the takeaways, I’ll give you a top story, content I wrote, and then some recommendations that I’ve been using that I think you should check out. So it is free, it is a weekly, it’s over at howibuilt.it/subscribe. Go ahead and sign up over athowibuilt.it/subscribe. Intro:Hey, everybody, and welcome to Episode 210 of How I Built It, the podcast that asks, How did you build that? Today’s sponsors areMindsize,Restrict Content Pro, andTextExpander, who you will be hearing about later on in the show. Now, if you are aBuild Something Clubmember, if you’re subscribed to Build Something More but you happen to be picking up the normal feed, definitely get the Build Something More feed because we, Michelle and I, had a fantastic pre-show conversation, which is a show first. I’m sending out the pre-show because it was really good. Speaking of, my guest is Michelle Knight. She is the personal branding and marketing strategist over atBrandmerry. Michelle, how are you today? Michelle Knight:Oh, great. Thanks for having me. Loved our little pre-show chat. Joe:Likewise. Likewise. Thanks for joining me on the show here. Thanks for joining us. It was a lot of fun and nerd culture and WandaVision. First of all, if you’re not watching WandaVision, you should watch WandaVision. I guess by the time this comes out, we will actually be behind. So, if you haven’t seen it, spoiler alert. But if you’re all caught up, you know, don’t talk past what happened. That’s what we’re talking about today. We’re talking today about how to market your business without relying on social media, which I’m really excited about. I was looking at your website, again, personal branding consultant. I think this is a really good topic to talk about because I feel like I was telling my students about this like 10 years ago. I was teaching at the college level, college freshmen a computer literacy course, and I’m like, “You need to have a personal brand.” And they’re like, “Who cares?” But now fast forward to 2021, I feel like that’s even more important. So before we dive into the kind of social media stuff, I suspect having a strong personal brand will help with that. Why don’t you tell us a little bit more about what you do there? Michelle Knight:Yeah, absolutely. I founded my companyBrandmerryright after my son was born in 2016 out of just the need to be home, to just not want to commute to work anymore. I had a background in PR, background in communications and I dove headfirst into creating my online business with really kind of wearing this coach consultant hat. I struggled a lot. I had no idea what I was doing. I felt like I was mimicking everybody else. I spent months creating a website that then didn’t look like or sound like me, which is highly relatable to a lot of people. About nine months into it, when I was planning on leaving my nine to five, I was like, “Something needs to shift.” So I started to do more and more research outside as well as some internal research to figure out who I was and what I really wanted to build a brand around. And everything really started to shift for me at that point in time. I started to show up in a different way, I started to really express myself, I did more live videos and I started to share more stories. And instantly, I saw connections start to happen. The same people who had been in my community for months were buying from me suddenly. And I didn’t change the offer. All I did was change how I was showing up and creating a brand that was a representation of that. So that’s what I really fell in love with personal branding and storytelling, and I spent, the next three or four years really focusing on that aspect, teaching entrepreneurs specifically how to figure out, number one, who they are and how they want to show up online and then creating a brand and a product suite that’s in alignment with that mission. And then I’ve moved in the last couple of years to focus on, now, how do we market that? Because you realize really quickly that you can have an amazing personal brand, you can have an amazing product, but if you don’t know how to effectively market it, then nobody else is going to know about it. Joe:I love that. And it’s so funny that you mentioned that because I feel like between the pre-show and this you must have been listening into the solo episode I recorded right before this, which wasEpisode 205, where I talked about my failed Patreon experiment. It’s the same thing. I started this podcast in 2016. I went self-employed in 2017 after my daughter was born, and I thought, “I need to launch memberships. I need to launch a membership for my podcast.” And I just copied everyone else’s benefits, everyone else’s levels. And I’m like, “How come no one’s buying?” And then I came to realize I’m just promising a bunch of stuff that I don’t even know if I can deliver or not. So I took that down, and I’ve changed directions. Well, now people are actually buying my membership because it reflects me and what I can offer. So I think that’s fantastic. Michelle Knight:Well, I tell people all the time that people don’t buy the product or the service, there’s a million products and services that are exactly the same across the board. If people really just focused on that, then they would just buy the first thing that they see. But it’s about that connection, it’s about that relationship. And that’s why personal branding is so important. Joe:Yeah, absolutely. As people listen to this, I know that’s something I struggled with early on when I was freelancing and making websites for people was, how do I write my copy? Do I write “I”? Do I write “we”? Who is this? Is it the royal we? So maybe we can start there? How you present yourself, as you said, is so integral to connecting with customers, with selling more products and services? I or we? Michelle Knight:I think it depends. I think when you’re starting a business and you’re the sole CEO and face of that business, I always recommend going with “I”. Primarily because, who is the “we”? You and your imaginary team, probably not in the beginning. You’re the decision-maker at that point in time. The “I” allows for more of that personal connection. If you’re working with a company, I think you go back and forth. If we’re speaking on behalf of the company, I have a background in nonprofit management, if you’re speaking on behalf of the nonprofit and the work that they do, it’s a “we”. But if your CEO is stepping out and saying something, sharing their story, sharing what they’re doing, it’s an “I”. And then I guess as your business evolves, and I see this a lot, especially as someone who has added more team members and is moving more into a company role, I go back and forth between the two. If it’s me, I’m showing up, I’m sharing a story, I’m focusing on connecting, I’m the one telling the story. But if I’m talking about the team as a whole and we made this decision, then I can share that. So right out of the gate, I say default to “I”. As you grow, incorporate the “we.” Joe:I think that’s great. And that’s generally the advice that I’ve recommended as well just because, you know, there are benefits to working one on one with a freelancer. And maybe they’re not available 24/7 but they are there to fully understand your business to be invested in a way that some giant agency can’t be. Michelle Knight:Totally. Joe:Awesome. So when it comes to building your personal brand, we’re not just talking about website copy and “I” or “we.” What are we talking about? If I wanted to start investing in more of a personal brand for me, where would I start? Would I look inwardly? Would I do some research into things I should consider? What does the process look like? Michelle Knight:It’s kind of all of that. I like to say that branding as a whole, and I think it’s important to say, is an experience. I think very old school and what I thought even just five years ago was like, “Let me get my website up. Let me choose my colors and my fonts. If I do that everything will be fine.” And we’ve really learned. And now that information is so readily available to us, that it’s not about those things. It really is about the experience that we’re creating. And those things can help with that process, but at the end of the day, it’s that voice, it’s that mission, it’s how we’re carrying through everything that we’re doing, from website design to coffee to our products and our offers. The method that I teach is first to look inward because as a recovering perfectionist, I have a tendency to go outward, and say, “Oh, what are you doing? That seems to be working. Let me just copy that.” And that’s what happened in the beginning of my business. So I recommend going inward first. The first practice that I love to guide people through is just what’s your story because one of the first pieces of copy that everyone should really write is their brand story. And it’s one of the most fun things that you can create in the beginning. So going inward and saying, “What is my story? What has led me to where I am today? What’s the purpose behind me wanting to put my work out in the world?” As I mentioned before, I’m from a nonprofit background. So I always recommend my clients establish a mission for their brand. What are your values? These are the things that you want to identify right out of the gate so that you can make sure that you’re always showing up in those pieces—your brand is always showing up. Then the second piece of this is, all right, now, who do you want to attract? A lot of people forget this step of the personal brand, and then we start showing up sharing content and stories and it’s not resonating with people because it’s just about me, me, me, me, me, me, me, I, I, I, I, when what we share needs to resonate with the people that we want to attract. So, you’re not showing up and just like writing your biography online. You’re building a business. So the stories that you share, the content that you share, even the colors that you choose needs to come down to, you know, how do I want my audience to feel? What are they seeking? What are they looking for? What’s happened in their life? That portion of it is where we get more into research, you know, the dreaded ideal client research that everyone hates. But I swear you have to do it. I personally love it. But that’s where that piece comes in. So then you combine those two things together, and you say, “All right, now let me decide what offer can I create based on my expertise that my audience absolutely needs? Because I know them so well at this point. What types of messages can I create that showcase my expertise and my strengths that resonate with my ideal customer. And so everything then kind of pulls on those two pieces as you build your business. Sponsor:This episode is brought to you byRestrict Content Pro. 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The plugin has worked extremely well for me and I was able to get memberships up and running very quickly. Right now, they are offering a rare discount for how I built it listeners only: 20% off your purchase when you use RCPHOWIBUILTIT at checkout. That’s RCPHOWIBUILTIT, all one word. If you want to learn more aboutRestrict Content Proand start making money with your own membership site today, head on over tohowibuilt.it/rcp, that’showibuilt.it/rcp. Thanks toRestrict Content Profor supporting the show. And now let’s get back to it. Joe:This is the exact thing that I said, again, in that episode I just recorded. “I made the Patreon copy about me and I started my own business and I want to make content full time. And you should give me money so I can make content full time.” And I just read it back recently and I’m like, “What was I even thinking?” Who cares? Who cares that I want to make content? People want good content, and they will support good content, but they’re not just

Going on podcasts can be a great opportunity for small business owners. You’re getting in front of a new audience to tell your story and show your expertise. But did you know there’s a whole other avenue you can explore? Kristin Molenaar does, and she tell us all about it! Plus, in Build Something More, she walks us through forming your podcast pitch. (more…) View on separate page Transcript Joe: Hey everybody, and welcome to Episode 207 of How I Build It, the podcast that asks, How did you build that? Today my guest is… I’m so terrible because I just asked you how to pronounce your last name. Kristin Molenaar. Kristin: You got it. Molenaar. Joe: Excellent. Excellent. I’m excited to be talking to Kristin Molenaar. She is the founder of YesBoss. And we’re going to be talking about why being a podcast guest is ineffective for many entrepreneurs. But before we get into that, I do want to tell you that today’s episode is brought to you by three fantastic sponsors: Mindsize, Restrict Content Pro, and TextExpander. You will be hearing about those fine folks later in the episode. Right now. Let’s bring on our guests. Kristin, how are you? Kristin: Hey, I’m doing well. How are you? Joe: I am doing fantastically. Like I said, I’m really excited to talk about this. Because I do feel like for a long time I didn’t take advantage of the fact well enough that I was going on other people’s podcasts and trying to build my audience, things like that. I know that a lot of my guests, this is a platform for them. Basically, what we’re trading here is you are giving me some of your time so I can create good content and I am putting you in front of my audience. So I want you to have people get in touch with you and stuff like that. So hopefully, this will be a good reference for future guests on this podcast and others. But before we get into that—I just said ‘before we get into that’ like three times—I want you to tell people who you are and what you do. Kristin: I run a company called YesBoss. We’re a podcast booking agency, essentially. So we help mostly service-based entrepreneurs, so online service providers, we help them get booked on podcasts so they can generate more leads in just an hour a week. My zone of genius is talking. I like to talk for a living, and we help other clients who like to do that exact same thing. Joe: That’s fantastic. And I’ve got to say you do a good job. I get lots of guest pitches each day and I have a pretty strong litmus test for if I’m going to respond or not or if I’m going to accept the guest or not. And you pass not once but twice or thrice, I think at this point. Kristin: A testament to our service, huh? Thank you for that. Joe: Absolutely. Because you get the pitches and it’s like, “Hi (name), I’m person…” And then like five paragraphs about why they’re so great. And I’m just like, “I don’t want you to just… I want to bring value to my listeners.” I don’t remember exactly what you said in your email but I read it and I was like, “I think this will be insanely valuable for both me and my listener.” Kristin: Well, I’m excited. There’s definitely a formula there. There’s definitely a lot of testing we’ve done to those pitches. So I’m so glad to hear your thoughts on it. Thank you so much. Joe: Absolutely. And thank you for taking the time. I feel like you’ve listened to the show and you knew exactly what I want to talk about. So, you don’t have to say whether you have or not, but it felt that way at least. So you are a podcast booking agency. There is definitely a lot of value in that. So maybe before we get into the main thing that we’re talking about, why should more entrepreneurs go on podcasts? Kristin: I would say that it’s like the simplest sales funnel I’ve ever built in my whole entire life. I feel like as entrepreneurs, you know, especially if you’re an entrepreneur that has ever been on Facebook, you’re gonna be hit with a lot of messages about how to do all the things. And I think what took me a while to really learn because when I first started in this entrepreneurial journey I was floundering for 14 months, and then I found a rhythm that really worked. What I really found is it all boils down to having a sales funnel that hits a few checkmarks. So at the top of that sales funnel is, how are you getting visible? How are you attracting those people? How are you then nurturing those people, selling those people, and retaining those people? So that’s just this basic sales funnel strategy. And there’s all these ways to do that. There’s ads, there’s social media platforms. There’s all these top level things to get new audience attraction, then there’s all these ways to nurture your clients, you know, email lists or people that are on your social media. How are you retaining those existing people and selling? So there’s all these different ways to do this. What I have found though is… I stumbled upon this honestly. When I started doing podcast guesting myself, what I realized is I was getting in front of new people and attracting new people, and forming relationships with a new person. So specifically the podcast host. And what happened afterwards was people were coming to me to ask about my services and they had already been pre-sold. Because the nature of a podcast episode is that you are building that trust factor really rapidly, you are attracting. You’re the nurturing by really sharing all of your genius on that episode. Like you already said at the beginning of this episode, you bring on guests, and you want to highlight all the ways that they know how to do what they do. So you’re providing a platform for me to talk to you about how smart I am. I mean, if you want to put it that way. Joe: Yeah, absolutely. That’s exactly what it is. Kristin: And by the end of the episode, you know how to work with me, you know who in your network to tell to work with me. And then as a ripple effect, so I see this as a secondary thing, as the secondary thing, your audience and the people that are listening to the podcast also know that. So I’ve just been kind of blown away at how effective and fun it’s been. Joe: That’s incredible. I love a lot of what you said there. I mean, if longtime listeners of the show will know I’ve said no trust a million times on this podcast. Because it’s so important. It’s why I teach people how to start their own podcasts to grow their business because it’s an easy way… not an easy way but it’s a fast way to convince people that you are likeable and trustworthy. And people invite me into their headphones every week. So they feel like they know me. And it’s a strong bond. So, when I have a guest on the show, I’m saying I trust this person enough to give them the platform of listeners I have teach me something. I learn something from every single one of my guests. So I love what you said there about how this is the simplest sales funnel you’ve ever built in your life. How do you figure out what shows you should go on? Kristin: I think this is a really good question. I think I’ve got to start it by saying this. I think that most people see podcasts guesting in one of two ways. They see it as a traditional marketing strategy. And that marketing strategy says, “Find the podcast with the biggest audience that you can attract and go there.” And then the other people see this as traditional PR strategy. And the PR strategy says, “Get on the podcast with the biggest name recognition so you can leverage that authority on your website, your social media presence,” all those places. For me, I see it a bit differently. For me, I have realized that being a profitable podcast guest has more to do with relationships than it does marketing and PR strategies. So when I’m looking at what podcasts I want to be on… You know, I looked at you, Joe, I didn’t necessarily look at your audience and who you’ve attracted but like, are you someone that I want to have a business relationship with? Are you someone who has a complimentary or similar message to that that I share? Do our business philosophies align? Do we think the same way when it comes to what we do for our clients? Because I have seen that when I focus on relationships, the ripple effects of every time that I show up are so much greater than what can happen when I just attract your audience. I’ve seen things being invited to be a guest inside somebody’s paid course or mastermind or whatever. I’ve had those opportunities arise. I’ve been invited to speak on stages, I’ve been invited to have JV partnerships, somebody that interviewed me is now an affiliate partner for me, so they make money when I make money. These kinds of things all come from relationship. And when you’re looking just at the person’s audience, you’re really missing out on that relationship aspect. Sponsor: This episode is brought to you by Restrict Content Pro. If you need a fast, easy way to set up a membership site for yourself or your clients, look no further than the Restrict Content Pro WordPress plugin. 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Joe: It becomes increasingly clear now why your pitch to come on this show stood out more than other pitches. Because, again, I really can’t stress this enough. I talk a lot. I try not to talk about myself a lot. When I get a pitch is just like, “Jim baseball, went to Harvard, and was the first of his class and all this and now he’s great. And here’s all the reasons He’s great.” I’m just like, “Cool. What does that mean for me?” I’ve had great people on my podcast, but I want my audience to come away with someone they can feel like they can form a relationship with. So I really love that. Kristin: There’s two things that I want to say to kind of expand on what you’ve just said. It’s the job of the podcast guests to deliver an episode on a silver platter to the podcast host. And that starts with writing a really good pitch. The pitch has got to include talking points that are not all about how I built a million-dollar business with a team of five people. Okay, cool. But what is that episode about? What is the value that you’re going to be bringing to the podcast host audience? So, the podcast guests, they should be focused on the podcast host. What they have to understand is a podcast host is looking for how to deliver the most value to their audience. So you’ve got to deliver to them exactly what the episode is going to be about. Because if I hadn’t written talking points that were valuable to your audience, we would get on this interview and you would be thinking, “Cool, I don’t know what to ask Kristin. I am not sure what her zone of genius is. I don’t even know what this episode is gonna be about.” No one would find value in that episode at all, and that would be me doing you a disservice. Joe: That’s a very generous way to put it. Because I also think it’s the host’s job to tee up things, really good things for the guests to ask. It’s a good back and forth, a good conversation. But like you said, you gave me topics, and I’m like, “Yes, this is really good for my audience.” If we look at the pitch and it’s like, “Yeah, I built a million dollars in 30 days with five people or whatever,” it’s like, “Cool. I want guests that my audience can relate to.” I’ve had really good big name guests, but the episodes didn’t do very well because the guest was not relatable. Whereas some of the episodes with maybe lesser known people, people who don’t have their own giant audience, but delivered huge value… downloads through the roof. So it’s definitely less about who is on the show as much as what you talk about on the show. Kristin: It also hits on the point that your accolades have to have relevance. Accolades for the sake of accolades are not interesting to anyone but yourself. Joe: Yeah, exactly. Kristin: There’s a place for it in the pitch to talk about the things that you’ve done, but the point of talking about those things are to just prove to the person that you have the ability to talk about those talking points. So if it’s where I went to college or something else, there’s no relevance there. There’s no tie into what the episode is actually about or what we’re going to be talking about. Joe: Right. Yeah. Unless my show was like, “People who went to Harvard.” Kristin: There you go. Joe: Especially the revenue one. This is my last ranty point. But the revenue one is always suspect to me, because if you have a million-dollar revenue business and your expenses are like a million in one dollars, you don’t have a successful business; you are making no money. There are at least better accolades than how much revenue your business makes. Kristin: Right. It’s a vanity metric. Joe: Yeah, exactly. Kristin: Revenue is a vanity metric. Joe: Yeah, exactly. Well, that was fun. I have strong opinions and I’m always happy for it to wax poetic about them. But getting back on course here, why should we go on a podcast? We answered how do you figure out what shows to go on. Let’s say now that the listener here has reached out to a podcast and they have successfully landed the guest spot. The topic that you reached out about, the reason why being a podcast guest is ineffective for most entrepreneurs is one that really rings true to me. Because it’s time that you should really take advantage of in some way. First of all, let’s talk about why is it ineffective for most entrepreneurs, then we can talk about how to not make it ineffective. How to make it effective? There we go. Kristin: Yeah, I think that’s perfect. I think that’s perfect. I do talk to people all the time and have said, “I’ve been invited to speak on a podcast and it didn’t yield any results for me. I didn’t get any clients from it. There were no results.” However, that looks to you. And at the root of it, I feel that there’s a common denominator here. And often that is that the person doing the guesting doesn’t really know what they’re offering. It’s probably too wide. I mean, really, this is like a business foundational thing, but it is so essential when you’re getting yourself out there and creating visibility for yourself. Yes, okay, maybe you’re a business consultant, business coach, maybe you’re a copywriter, but those are really, really broad things. You’ve got to know like, what are you specifically doing? So here’s the thing about what I do. People know that I booked people on podcasts. That’s not very wide. That is really darn specific. That same kind of specificity can be for even the business coaches or consultants that offer a wide variety of services, you have to think about what’s your point of entry. What’s the first thing that people do to work with you? What is that one problem or one solution that you can solve for somebody, that very first one that you can solve for them? If you’re a copywriter, I’ve talked to several copywriters, who because they’re really great copywriters and they’ve got great social media presences, they’ve been invited to speak on podcast and they’re like, “But it didn’t yield anything.” And I’m thinking, “Okay, when you got off that episode, did the podcast host, they probably thought that you were really smart, and they would love to work with you if they had some kind of work to give to you, but did they even know what to hire you for? Were they hiring you to write their sales pages? Were they hiring you to write their social media content? Were they hiring you to write emails for them? What were they hiring you to do?” Because there’s got to be that really specific offer that you know how to talk about. The way that I talk to my clients is, do you have a methodology for what you do? That methodology becomes so easy to get in the room and have an interview about how you do all the things you do. So, for me, my objective with a really good podcast interview is I’m able to talk someone else through how to do my job. So essentially, if you’re a DIY kind of person, you could do my job for me. And that’s okay because my ideal clients, the cream of the crop are the people that hear that I know what I’m doing, they know that they don’t want to DIY it themselves, and it becomes a no-brainer for them to work with somebody like me. Joe: Love that. Because something I think a lot of people are worried about, especially when they go on podcasts or when they blog, is that, “Well, if I just tell people what to do, they’re gonna do it, and they’re not gonna hire me.” But that’s not the case. Imagine if you hired somebody to remodel your kitchen. After he walks me through how he’s going to do it, I want to hire him even more because I’m like, “I can’t do this. I’m gonna mess this up.” Kristin: That’s a good example. Joe: It’s the same. I was on a podcast recently where we talked about four ways to monetize your podcast. And I told them everything that they need to do to monetize their podcast. And if they want to go off and do it, they can, but if they’re like, “Wait, I don’t know how to configure this tool that Joe talked about to do it,” or “I don’t know how to set up a membership site with WordPress,” now they know how to get ahold of me because… Well, I don’t want to spoil what you’re about to say, but they do know how to get a hold of me I suspect because of the way you’re going to answer this next question, which they don’t know what they’re offering. How do you begin Build an offering for a podcast? What are the steps that I need to take to make sure I am making the most of being a podcast guest? Kristin: There’s two things. There’s what happens before, which we already kind of touched on, and what happens after. So the what happens before is making sure that you’re writing those talking points that lead the conversation into that. The whole topic that we’re talking about right now is being an effective versus an ineffective podcast guest. You asking me that tees up all the talking points and the methodologies that I have to share. You are asking me questions where the answers are my methodology. Like I’m able to talk about that. This is something that when we work with our clients, we give them a really big questionnaire that’s talking… We ask them to tell us all about how they serve their clients and just tons of stuff. And then we use that information to write talking points that will really showcase their genius in the best way possible. So it all starts there. But then I think what people really miss out on is it follows up by having a connection with that podcast host. And starting that relationship after the interview has ended, after you stop recording, having a conversation about like, “How can I serve your audience? How can I be of value to you?” I think that that then formulates the snowball effect of a genuine relationship and showing up in a way for that podcast host where they know that you’re there for that relationship. Well, I think that some people would think that my answer would have to do all about the methodology and sharing about that methodology. The only real secret there is, when you’ve got to have one? And it’s going to be dependent on what you do. You’ve just got to know how to do what you do, and you’ve got to be willing to have a genuine pullback, all the curtains, talk about all the things. I mean, I tell podcast hosts when I come in, like, “I’m an open book. You can ask me whatever you want.” My mindset is that I don’t have any secrets. We live in a world where you could Google everything. Like me pretending if I don’t tell you you won’t know, who am I fooling really? So you’ve got to leverage on teeing up the conversation and being really genuine about having a goal of a relationship with the person that you’re in the room. Sponsor: This episode is brought to you by TextExpander. It’s a new year and you can start off on the right foot by reclaiming your time. With TextExpander, you can save time by converting any text you type into keyboard shortcuts called snippets. Say goodbye to repetitive text entry, spelling and message errors, and trying to remember the right thing to say. With TextExpander, you can say the right thing in just a few keystrokes. Better than copy and paste better than scripts and templates, TextExpander snippets allow you to maximize your time by getting rid of the repetitive things you type while still customizing and personalizing your messages. TextExpander can be used in any platform, any app, anywhere you type. Take back your time and increase your productivity in the new year. And let me just say that snippets is not all it does. With advanced snippets, you can create fill-ins, pop up fields, and much more. You can even use JavaScript or AppleScript. I can type out full instructions for my podcast editor, Hi, Joel, in just a few keystrokes. Another one of my favorite and most used snippets is PPT. This will take whatever text I have on my keyboard and convert it to plain text so I’m no longer fighting formatting. Plus, if you have employees or contractors, you can use TextExpander to manage and share snippets with them so you all get it right every time. I’ve recently started sharing TextExpander snippets with my virtual assistant. This year, How I Built It is focusing on being productive while working from home. TextExpander is the perfect tool for that. Plus, they’re providing resources and blog posts to help you make the most of their tool and be productive. TextExpander is available on Mac OS, Windows, Chrome, iPhone, and iPad. If you’ve been curious about trying TextExpander or simple automation in general, now is the time. Listeners can get 20% off their first year. Just visit textexpander.com/podcast and let them know that I sent you. Joe: Actually, to your exact point, the exact point that we’re making, I listened to Smart Passive Income some time ago. This is Pat Flynn’s podcast. And he had a publicist on there named Brittney Lynn. And I listened to that episode and I was like, “Well…” I hired her. I hired her to help me figure out my messaging. And she sent me a huge questionnaire and I honestly had to think about it for a week. And I’m like, “What do I want out of whatever? What is my messaging?” Now I have those talking points, mostly around podcasting and a target audience and things like that. I think that’s super duper valuable. I think also something that you’re talking about that I had not thought of, or I honestly didn’t think the conversation would go in this direction, so this is great, is you’re really leaning on the relationship you’re forming with the podcast host. So this is not just a call to action, go to my website/joe to get the free download. It’s like, “I just spent an hour talking to this person. We get along well. How can we help each other?” It’s almost like you’re creating public networking meetings with a podcast host? Kristin: It’s like speed dating for business almost. And I say speed dating on purpose because the idea is that we get past all the fluff. We’re not like, “How are you?” And we did do some of this. I know that you have kids. You know that I have a kid. We did a little bit of that before the interview recorded. But it’s like, let’s get down to like the nitty-gritty of how we’re serving our people and the meaningful stuff about our business to see if like, “Hey, maybe I can support your audience. Maybe you can support my audience.” We’re getting into the really important details that are essential when you’re having a good business relationship with somebody. Joe: That’s super interesting. I’ll ask you this then. This sort of, we’ll say strategy, works pretty well for you because you are in the business of podcast booking. So obviously, you go on a podcast, I like you, I trust you, now you know what the show is about. So if you have a potential guest for me, I am more likely to accept that, right? Kristin: That’s true. That’s true. Joe: What about people who aren’t necessarily in the podcast space. Again, let’s say I make or I fix bicycles or whatever. I keep using that example but it’s like hyperlocal. So it doesn’t really work that well. But let’s just say I make websites. What… Kristin: That one works. Joe: Yeah, that one works. Kristin: I can work with that. Thank you. Joe: Just to give you a really hard exam. How good are you? Kristin: I know, right? Joe: So I make websites, I’m booking myself to go on podcast to talk about making websites, how do I nurture that relationship with a podcast host if they don’t have…” Well, I won’t qualify? How do I nurture that relationship with the podcast host? Kristin: What we have found is our sweet spot is entrepreneurs that serve other entrepreneurs. No, I’m not saying that there is not a viable strategy here beyond that. But for us, that is really our sweet spot, and where I can just talk all day long. Here’s the thing. When you are an entrepreneur and you’re getting in front of somebody who has the same business philosophies as you do, you can riff and get passionate about the same exact things, which I know that you and I can do that. What happens is my network becomes open to you and your network becomes open to me because we know that if this friend of ours or this peer of ours, somebody… Well, I’ll just say it this way. Somebody else that has interviewed me, another podcast host, we know that telling that other podcast hosts that they should meet you, Joe, like, well, they like me and they got passionate about the same things with me as you and I got passionate about. So if they need websites, you’re the guy. And you know somebody in your network that you have hit it off with, they hit it off with you and you and I have hit it off, so they’re gonna hit it off with me. So it’s easy to make those inner network connections. This is where I think that the strategy in my mind or what’s played out for me and our clients is so different than PR and marketing because we’re looking at… You’ve said it. We’re looking at the relationship and we’re looking at, you know, is this somebody that would be an easy person for me to tell my network, “You’ve got to hear about Joe.” But also what that does is… This is not the answer the question, but it just came to mind. Another thing that does is when I go and fulfill my obligation to tell my audience about this interview, because I do think that if you’re going to be a guest, you’ve got to be willing to talk about the fact that you’ve been on the interview, that is bare minimum commitment in my mind, it’s easy for me to write something genuine on LinkedIn, like, ” You’ve got to listen to podcasts with Joe. He and I have so many things in common. These are the things that we talked about.” That excitement that comes from sharing that episode is genuine because of the relationship I felt. I see this as really tapping into each other’s networks. Another example that I like to give is relationship building also opens doors to bigger podcasts, and bigger mediums, and all of those things that you want to look at when you’re doing traditional marketing and traditional PR. So, the example you talked about Smart Passive Income, you know, there’s tons of people that would love to be on Smart Passive Income and they’ve come to me and said, “Can you get me on Smart Passive Income.” And what I say is this. “Look, you don’t just knock on that door and say, ‘Hey, here I am. Can you please have me on your podcast?'” What you do though, is you look at other people that are in his circle, and get in with those people to see who can open those doors. So a great way to drive this home is you don’t go and send a cold pitch to the queen and expect to be invited to visit the queen. However, there are people that know the queen that maybe you can get in with them. And if you really liked them and you have some commonalities there, they might invite you to come meet the Queen someday. This is a long-term strategy and it doesn’t stop at just my network and your network. It ripples. It ripples if you really foster these things. Joe: Yeah, absolutely. I think that’s a great analogy. And it’s proven too. A warm lead is more often likely to succeed than a cold call. If someone makes the introduction for me as opposed to me just saying, like, “Hey, I want to use your platform,” the warm lead is going to work out better more often than not. So we’ve talked about kind of tapping into the network through forming the relationship with the host, and the guest host relationship. Do you do anything to talk directly to the audience? If someone is listening now, they’re like, “Man, I really want Kristin to help me get on other people’s podcasts,” is there a strategy there for that as well? Kristin: On our end, if I’m asked what my call to action is, we do have that backend stuff in place. I will say though because I want to make sure everybody’s expectations are correct, I have found that not as many people wanted to come and get on my email list and take my DIY content. For me, that hasn’t been a huge… I don’t know, a huge success, I’ll say. Some people do end up on my email list but I think that… And maybe this is because my service is very done-for-you that the people who are attracted to a done for you service are interested in consuming your DIY content. Joe: Oh yeah. Kristin: So I think that you’ve got to be really creative about how your content is positioned if you’re a done-for-you service. I mean, you can touch on that DIY but you’ve got to be really concise about it. So for example, my opt-in is a 10 minute masterclass and I had a few clients review that and they were like, “I think it needs to be shorter.” It had been like 13 minutes and I chopped it down to 10 minutes. Because what I realized is, look, the people that want to hire me don’t want to hear me drone on and on. I’ve got to get to the point as quickly as possible. So I think you’ve got to think about that back end offer a little bit. And I will just say my experience has been that, that has not been the most profitable. So, like say 100 people end up on my email list. I am getting more value from meeting two people in the podcast host network than I am from those 100 people that got on my email list. And heck, those 100 people took a whole lot more work. Because that’s the kind of work that you’re like sitting behind your computer trying to… You know, you’re writing the content. For me, that’s harder. Joe: You’re building up. Kristin: Exactly. I would rather meet another podcast host or be invited to speak inside somebody’s paid mastermind or group coaching program. For me, those have gotten just greater impact because the people that want to say yes are quicker yeses, and I don’t have to nurture them as much. So I don’t know. Yeah, you can nurture but it’s not my favorite strategy. Joe: I think that’s a very interesting perspective. Because, again, longtime listeners of the show will know, I’m like, “Your call to action if you have your own podcast or whatever, build your email list, build your email list.” This is from a more product-centric approach for me. I sell $99 courses or whatever. I sell a $9 a month membership or whatever. So the nurturing and the adding value is a bit more important for me. Also, those people are DIYers. So my DIY opt-in is going to work a little better. But for the done-for-you service, I think that’s a really interesting and valuable perspective. Perhaps we’ll dig into that a little bit more in the members show. If you are not a member by the way, you can go to buildsomething.club to sign up. It’s just fantastic. It’s a hoot there. Before we get into tips for the listeners, I am distracted by something in your background. Is that a cigar box? Kristin: It is. It is. My husband and I found a bunch of cigar boxes in a thrift store. I don’t know, five-plus years ago, and I have them sprinkled throughout my house because they’re really great storage boxes, and they’re just kind of industrial and fun. Joe: Yeah, absolutely. They smell nice. I’m a cigar smoker myself. So I saw the box and I was like, “I wonder.” Kristin: Oh, that’s interesting. Joe: Yeah. Fantastic. I don’t have any empty boxes right now, but next time I have some I’ll let you know. Kristin: I mean, they’re perfect for storing things. They look cool in your house. I think so. Joe: Yes, they do. Yeah, absolutely. Sponsor: This episode is brought to you by Mindsize. 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Or if you’re a freelancer or agency who feels in over your head or with an eCommerce build, their agency support plan is built specifically for you. There were a few times in my career where I really could have used that. They’ll take a high stress situation and help you relax while still delivering for your client. So check out Mindsize over at mindsize.com today. They will help you make more money, whether you need an eCommerce store, whether you need to improve your current eCommerce store, or if you build eCommerce stores for others. That’s mindsize.com. Thanks so much to Mindsize for supporting the show. Joe: As we get to the end of this conversation, what are some tips for the listeners that you have? I think we talked a bit about how to get on people’s shows and the things that you should think about before you go on people’s shows. Maybe if they’re starting from square one, what’s one or two things that they should do to make sure they have an efficient podcast guesting experience? Kristin: Talking to this audience, the person that’s never done it before, one of the biggest apprehensions that I hear is, “Am I ready? I’m nervous. When I show up, is it going to be a good episode? It’s gonna get published and I don’t know who’s gonna hear it.” There’s some of those concerns that come with first time guesting. And I know that people that ultimately are going to be fantastic guests still have those apprehensions. I did. So I can totally relate to that. So I want to offer this piece of advice that I feel not a lot of people take into consideration. And that is that there’s still a ton of value in being featured on a brand new podcast. I talked to somebody recently, a podcaster, I was interviewed by her and she told me that she actually likes to be in that first episode because when somebody finds a new podcast that they like, they go way back to the beginning and they begin bingeing it. So maybe that doesn’t help prove by point that you should go after a smaller podcast because the barriers are lower, because I just talked about how everybody’s going to hear it. But the strategy for me has been, look, if somebody is serious enough about their business to decide to start a podcast, that’s a serious entrepreneur right there. You can speak to the fact that building a podcast, it is not a small logistical commitment. It is a big deal to decide that you’re going to be a podcast host. So if you are feeling apprehensive, but want to kind of test the waters, get out there a little bit, I would say there’s tons of Facebook groups, tons of communities of people learning how to launch their podcast. Get in with those people. I think that the barriers might feel a little bit lower because they’re not going to be expecting as much from you because they’re just starting out. You can kind of be beginners together a little bit. But I would also say with that, like, here’s the reality. This is a conversation. Joe, you’re asking me questions, and I’m answering them with things that I can just talk about off the top of my head. I’m not over-preparing for episodes. If you were to ask me things… “Well, here we go.” If you had gone with that bicycle example, I would have said, “You know, Joe, I would love to tell you how I’m smart enough to figure that one out but I don’t know.” Being okay with saying that and realizing like, “I know what I know really stinking well but that doesn’t mean that I know everything. And I’m okay with that.” So it’s just a conversation. Be true to who you are, talk about what you know, and be honest about the things that you don’t know or maybe even your failures. Some of those things are really inspiring as well. Joe: I agree wholeheartedly actually. One of the reasons that this show did so well in the beginning was because we did talk about failures a lot. And I think that makes starting a business maybe less intimidating, right? Because you see the gold medalist win the gold medal at the Olympics but you don’t see the years it took for them to train and fail and break their leg or whatever. You don’t see the struggle as often as the success. And I think that that’s important. That’s great. So get in with people who are learning how to podcast. Remember, it’s a conversation. I think that’s super important. Because some people want me to send them exactly the questions I’m going to ask ahead of time, and I’m always happy to oblige. But honestly, I genuinely don’t because I did a little background research on my guests, I know what you’d like to talk about and I mean, frankly, I’m gonna have any conversation. I talk a lot. I’m an extrovert, I’m from New York, and I’m Italian. So we talk a lot. So I’m most likely going to ask you questions that you’re prepared to answer anyway. I love that. I think that’s fantastic. Then, before we go, I do need to ask you my favorite question, which is, do you have any trade secrets for us? Kristin: Gosh, I’m trying to think of the best way to answer that. The trade secrets. Yes, I do have one. I do have one. So when you are pitching for yourself and you want to find podcast hosts that are in alignment with what you talk about, here’s a really cool insider secret. Find somebody who has done a podcast tour who has a message that’s complimentary to yours. I have a very easy example. I’m all about work less, make more. I offer a done for you service. So this is for people that are not interested in DIY, they’re cool with delegation and spending a little bit more to shortcut things. You know who talks about work less, make more? James Schramko who has a really great podcast and he has been a guest on a lot of other people’s podcasts. So what you can do is you look at that influencer, so James is my influencer, you find all the places that he has previously been featured. And guess what? There’s a gold mine of people that would probably be a good fit for you. Joe: What? That is an incredible… That’s a good trade secret. That’s legit. I love that. Like I said, we’ll talk a little bit more about kind of building your pitch and figuring out your messaging and things like that in the show after the show, the membership show. But for now, Kristin, this has been fantastic. If people want to learn more about you, where can they find you? Kristin: I personally hang out on LinkedIn. And because my last name is spelled with two A’s, got a unique spelling there, when you search me on LinkedIn, I’m the only one that shows up. Kristin Molenaar. So if you’re a podcast host, and you’re looking for guests, I mean, that’s not our paid service but we would be happy to hook you up with some people that have got their act together. Joe: Awesome. Kristin: And then if you’re interested in our services and just want to check that out, our website is yesbossva.com. And that has our 10-minute masterclass that I just briefly talked about here. Joe: Excellent. I will link to all of that and more over at the show notes. You can find those at howibuilt.it/207. Kristin, thanks so much for joining us today. I really appreciate it. Kristin: This was so much fun. Thanks for having me. Joe: Yes. And thank you to our sponsors, TextExpander, Restrict Content Pro, and Mindsize. Thank you, of course, for listening. And until next time, get out there and build something. Sponsored by:Mindsize: Your WooCommerce Partner Restrict Content Pro: Launch your membership site TextExpander: Get 20% off your first year by visiting the this link. Source

In today’s Solidarity Fridays episode, Kyle and Joe cover several news stories, including the University of Wisconsin-Madison creating a Psychoactive Pharmaceutical Investigation masters program, a non-profit called the Healing Advocacy Fund being created to implement therapeutic-use psilocybin in Oregon, legislature in Hawaii filing a new bill to legalize therapeutic-use psilocybin and psilocin (and remove them from their Schedule I controlled substances list), Cambridge, Massachusetts joining its neighbor, Somerville, in decriminalizing entheogenic plants, and the biggest story: Compass Pathways attempting to patent such common aspects of psilocybin-assisted therapy as soft furniture, muted colors, and providing "reassuring physical contact." This leads to a discussion on patents and what companies are really trying to do with this behavior.  They then discuss why mescaline isn't researched more, why psychedelic exceptionalism is a problem, Dr. Carl Hart, The Weeknd, and one of everyone's favorite topics: the drug war and why it sucks. And they let us know that seats for the next round of Navigating Psychedelics for Clinicians and Therapists (beginning March 11th) are about half full (so sign up!), the panel discussion on "Light Years" with director Colin Thompson is happening tonight (so hurry up and register for it!), Mind Bending, Mind Mending - A Series Exploring How Psychedelics Affect the Brain premieres on February 22nd with the first edition on Ketamine and featuring Kyle and Dr. Melanie Blair Pincus, and a new, cheaper, student-focused version of Navigating Psychedelics has been created and begins on March 2nd.  Notable Quotes “Are we in a little bit of a fantasy land when we’re trying to separate ourselves from the rest of drug culture? Big portions of psychedelic culture overlap with other portions of other drug cultures. And we’re not mutually exclusive. We’re prosecuted and surveilled by the same government agencies. Prohibition hits us all really hard.” -Joe “I think that’s how a lot of politicians win votes, is by being ‘tough on drugs’ when we should be tough on the drug war.” -Joe “What does it really cost to end the drug war? What do we save by ending the drug war? It’s probably actually better for culture to end the drug war than to medicalize psychedelics. It’s going to be cheaper, we’re going to have a lot of our citizenry back, we’re going to have less felons, ...much less racist culture, all of that. I know this is Psychedelics Today and once in a while, I feel like I’m going, “This is Drug War Today!’ but this is just a thing that keeps coming back to me, and I think it’s important that we examine our cultural baggage around our traditions. Should we really be demonizing people who use PCP? I don’t think so.” -Joe Links Vice.com: Can a Company Patent the Basic Components of Psychedelic Therapy? Psychedelicstoday.com: End of the Road - Navigating Psychedelics and Patent Law Dmtx.org University of Wisconsin-Madison’s Psychoactive Pharmaceutical Investigation, MS program Opb.org: New nonprofit aims to advise on creation of Oregon’s psilocybin-assisted therapy system Healingadvocacyfund.org Marijuanamoment.net: Hawaii Could Legalize Psychedelic Mushroom Therapy Under New Senate Bill Benzinga.com: Boston Suburb Votes To Decriminalize Natural Psychedelics Fieldtripping.fm podcast: #13: The Best Kind of Counter-Culture: Drug Using Criminal Rick Doblin, Pt. 1 Mescaline: A Global History of the First Psychedelic, by Mike Jay Drug Use for Grown-Ups: Chasing Liberty in the Land of Fear, by Dr. Carl L. Hart Chasing the Scream: The First and Last Days of the War on Drugs, by Johann Hari Support the show! Patreon Leave us a review on Facebook or iTunes Share us with your friends Join our Facebook group - Psychedelics Today group – Find the others and create community. Navigating Psychedelics  

Our crew today: Hosts Dr. Steph, Miami Rick, Captains Nick and Jeff, Producer/Director Liz. Join us for the latest in aviation news, your feedback, and this week's Plane Tale: "Flying the Red Flag." Photo Credit: Nick Anderson [00:03:04] NEWS [00:03:22] FINAL REPORT - Crash: Ju-Air JU52 at Piz Segnas on Aug 4th 2018, Lost Height in Spiral Descending Trajectory [00:13:24] A Man has Been Stopped at Vienna Airport After Hiding 74 Chameleons in Socks and Empty Ice-Cream Boxes [00:17:22] A New Startup Luxury Airline is Launching Flights Next Month with a Private Jet Like Plane [00:22:31] Incident: EAT Leipzig A306 at Brussels on Nov 26th 2020, Rejected Takeoff Above V1 Due to Difficulties Becoming Airborne [00:42:13] EasyFLY ATR42 Columbia — Not So Easy, Huh? [00:48:48] FAA Employee 'Maliciously' Caused a Communications Blackout Between 10 Planes and Air Traffic Control Over Hawaii [00:51:45] Pakistan Aviation Regulator to Outsource Licensing Exams [00:54:54] Longtime DB Cooper Suspect Dies at 94, Leaving Mystery of Daring Hijacker Unsolved [01:01:09] GETTING TO KNOW US [01:30:39] COFFEE FUND [01:32:32] FEEDBACK [01:32:42] Mark - Brand New Listener [01:37:41] David - An Old Incident But, Maybe, A Still Relevant Lesson [01:53:44] Joe - What’s the Speed Limit??? [02:04:03] PLANE TALES - Flying the Red Flag [02:29:28] Papa Tango - Tenerife & My 747 Connection [02:34:54] Gus - Capt Jeff Fini Landing Footage [02:35:37] James - Garmin Emergency Autoland [02:42:53] Steffen - Lufthansa Longest Flight [02:52:41] Av8rTony - Expectation Bias and ATC Instructions VIDEO Don't see the video? Click this to watch it on YouTube! Looking for the older episodes? You can find them by going here: All APG Episodes Feed ABOUT RADIO ROGER “Radio Roger” Stern has been a TV and Radio reporter since he was a teenager. He’s won an Emmy award for his coverage in the New York City Market. Currently you can hear his reporting in New York on radio station 1010 WINS, the number one all-news station in the nation. Nationally you can hear him anchor newscasts on the Fox News Radio Network and on Fox’s Headlines 24-7 service on Sirius XM Radio. In addition Roger is a proud member of and contributor to the APG community. Audible.com Trial Membership Offer - Get your free audio book today! Give us your review in iTunes! I'm "airlinepilotguy" on Facebook, and "airlinepilotguy" on Twitter. feedback@airlinepilotguy.com airlinepilotguy.com "Appify" the Airline Pilot Guy website (http://airlinepilotguy.com) on your phone or tablet! ATC audio from http://LiveATC.net Intro/outro Music, Coffee Fund theme music by Geoff Smith thegeoffsmith.com Dr. Steph's intro music by Nevil Bounds Capt Nick's intro music by Kevin from Norway (aka Kevski) Doh De Oh by Kevin MacLeod is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution license (https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/) Source: http://incompetech.com/music/royalty-free/index.html?isrc=USUAN1100255 Artist: http://incompetech.com/ Copyright © AirlinePilotGuy 2021, All Rights Reserved Airline Pilot Guy Show by Jeff Nielsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike 4.0 International License

Convenience is king. Everyone wants the easiest experience possible, but, they also expect that experience to be seamless and delightful at the same time. When it comes to shopping, ecommerce has been able to bring all those elements together better than in-store retailers. But even though brick and mortar retailers are facing an uphill battle, Joe Jensen believes that they aren’t going anywhere, and there are still massive innovations to be seen to make a more cohesive experience. Joe is a vice president in the Internet of Things Group and the general manager of the Retail, Banking, Hospitality and Education Group at Intel. He is helping brands across all industries and of all sizes become more nimble and data-centric. According to Joe, there are simple changes retailers can implement to solve big problems so long as you’re asking the right questions.. Like, what if you could solve all of your inventory issues with a simple technology that has already been in existence for years? And how can brands leverage in-store experiences as more of an enhancement to customers who typically enjoy online shopping but crave something more in-person?On this episode of Up Next in Commerce, Joe answers those questions and more. Plus, he explains how and why traditional retailers should be utilizing more data just like their ecommerce competitors, and he gives a first look into the technologies that will be making an impact on the future of retail.   Main Takeaways:Curation is the Cure: The role of retail is changing, and the retailers who lean into curated experiences will be able to better meet the new expectations of consumers. Rather than offering a little bit of everything, stores will want to give customers a deep dive into a specific brand experience, because that is what they crave when they are shopping offline.Bring On The Data: When digitally-native businesses start to open brick-and-mortar locations, they insist on having as much data captured as possible about the customers who enter their stores. Traditional retailers don’t want or feel they need the data simply because they’ve never used it before. But the nimble retailers that use all the data at their disposal will be the ones to win even against their data-heavy, digitally-native competition.Incoming Technology: From computer vision to full RFID implementation, technology is going to change the way shopping happens for both the customer and the business. But, don’t expect these changes too quickly. Despite the fact that using RFID technology would solve nearly all inventory issues, many brands are hesitant to implement that wholesale change. Why is that? And what will be the catalyst to finally change? Tune in to find out.For an in-depth look at this episode, check out the full transcript below. Quotes have been edited for clarity and length.---Up Next in Commerce is brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. Respond quickly to changing customer needs with flexible Ecommerce connected to marketing, sales, and service. Deliver intelligent commerce experiences your customers can trust, across every channel. Together, we’re ready for what’s next in commerce. Learn more at salesforce.com/commerce---Transcript:Stephanie:Hey everyone and welcome back to Up Next in Commerce. This is your host, Stephanie Postles, co-founder at Mission.org. Today on the show we have Joe Jensen, vice president and general manager of Retail Banking, Hospitality and Education Business at Intel. Joe, how's it going?Joe:Oh, fantastic. Beautiful day here in Phoenix.Stephanie:Good. Yeah, I'm glad to hear it. That is a mouth full title, but I feel like you deserve it when you've been somewhere for 36 years, I saw?Joe:Isn't that scary. I didn't even think I'm 36 years old, so it's weird.Stephanie:That's amazing, actually. I want to just start there. Tell me how did your journey begin at Intel and what are you doing today? What's your day to day look like now versus 36 years ago?Joe:Well, I started as a product development engineer at Intel, and I worked in a bunch of different product disciplines as an engineer. My original life plan was really to leave Intel at about year 10 and go to a startup, but by year 10, Intel stock options were so attractive that I ended up being so that fully handcuffed into the company.Stephanie:Yeah. As with most tech companies, I was this close to staying at Google for the same reason. I'm like, "Oh, it's hard to leave. I see my options vesting in year three and five and seven," and you can just extrapolate it out and it'll keep you there. But it's good-Joe:I shifted from engineering to the business side in about year seven, and I've done a ton of different business startups in the company. I think one of the things I'm most proud of, I've started three businesses that were at zero and have hit over 500 million a year.Stephanie:Oh, wow. So what are the businesses that you've worked on?Joe:Two different ones in an embedded space, and then now the Retail Banking, Hospitality. Education is added into that, but that business started, gosh, it started at single digit millions and we grew it to, well, we're the largest business within the IoT space in Intel I can say.Stephanie:That's cool. So tell me a bit about when you're saying IoT, and then retail banking, now education, how do I imagine what you guys are doing for your partners? What are you providing them? What does that look like?Joe:In our space, the IoT space for Intel is really where IT for an enterprise meets the real world. So in the case of retail, it could be digital signs, point of sales systems, inventory management, building management, time clocks, any system that might be connecting into IT. If you go into the manufacturing side, which is in my space, the manufacturing units, it's where equipment data flows in off of manufacturing side flows into the enterprise.Stephanie:And how many opportunities are being missed right now by not implementing? I would say data analytics like you're talking about. When it comes to inventory I know that Walmart for a while was trying to figure out how to track out of stock issues and it was really hard even when they had the cameras going around the lanes because they couldn't see behind what was in front of it. I don't know if they figured it out yet, maybe you know better than me, but what opportunities are being missed by not having this implemented into retail stores?Joe:As an engineer, I really think about root cause and what's the underlying problem, and we really believe that inventory inaccuracy is one of the underlying problems in physical retail. The problem we have is if customer can't find it in the store, it's out of stock. It doesn't matter if it's in the backroom, doesn't matter if it's hidden behind some items on the shelf, it doesn't matter if it's misplaced. If the customer can't find it, it's out of stock. We have data and research that shows that 1% of customers who experience an out of stock will go through the whole journey of they search on the shelf for it, they go track down a staff person to go find it, they dig through the rack or they don't find it. They say, "Hey, hold on. Let me go check in the back." They go look in the back and then come out and then maybe they go to the POS and they look to see if another store has it, or they'll ship it to your house. 1% of the shoppers are that patient.Stephanie:That's me. I'm that 1%. I did that the other day at Pottery Barn. But then I was very upset at the end because I was like, just like what you said, let me look in the back. Not there. Let me look at our partner stores. Not there. Let me look online. Ooh, it's not the size you want. And at the end I'm like, "Ugh. Okay, goodbye. I never want to come back again." I love Pottery Barn, but.Joe:Talk about a study that showed that if a customer experiences that out of stock frustration five times in a store, they stopped going.Stephanie:Yeah, I can see that. So how do you go about solving something like that to get all your systems on top?Joe:It's really tough. I still think RFID is going to play a key role. Japan has a huge labor shortage problem. They just said because of the aging of their population, they don't have enough labor, and the government decided four or five years ago to put a big push on RFID, and they're mandating by 2025, all consumer goods that are sold in China have to come from the manufacturer RFID tagged. They've also funded a kind of research-Stephanie:And that essentially keeps everything inventoried, right? Then you don't have staff to work.Joe:Yes. What happens is you don't even need staff to check out now because consumers will put their items in a basket, step the basket on the checkouts, and it'll read all the tags and then we'll just pay and go.Stephanie:So it's like the Amazon Go store where they're experimenting with, but I don't know whatever actually happened to that. I went into one in Seattle maybe two years ago, but are they still around? What happened with the Amazon stores like that?Joe:They're still running. They do a tremendous amount of business. I don't know how much of it's because of convenience and how much of it is the novelty. I suspect that they're augmenting a lot of that with human capital behind the scenes. I do think that you're going to find retail bifurcating into two types of retail. You're going to see the hyper-convenient side, which is you just want to take all the friction out. How do I take all the hassle? How do I take all the friction out for the shopper? And I think for staples day to day things, you want to go pick up fast food, fast food should be fast. I won't throw the chain under the bus, but there's a new location near our house, and I swear there's a three-hour wait all day, every day.Stephanie:Oh my gosh.Joe:Fast food just isn't that good for me. I'm not going to wait in line for three hours to get my fast food. And so I think on the hyper-convenient side, that's a big part of retail. Then on the other side, we're calling hyper experience. With hyper experience, shopping is an enjoyment and a pastime for a lot of people. And during the pandemic, obviously you can't go to the mall. You can't go shopping like you used to, but that will come back, and that you want to go and get experiences. You don't want to go to department store A and then walk down the mall to the department store B. And if you close your eyes when you walked in, you wouldn't know which store you're in.Joe:Now, if they all have the same assortment, they all have the same brands, they all have the same brand micro stores inside their department store, what's the experience that you're delivering to the consumer? If you go try to find a piece of clothing and it's out of stock, how's that experience? That's not a very good experience. So yeah, it's funny. I had one of my engineers in China explaining how he really has everything delivered. All his groceries, all his food. China is just hyper convenient from that perspective. It's cool and I love it.Stephanie:But they're used to it. They grew up like that, though. I feel like here, if you try and introduce some of those conveniences, it'd be like everything should be done this way. I don't know. I think Americans are a little bit more like, "Oh, that's weird," because we just know we have to do like this.Joe:It's really cultural differences, but I love this quote from him. And he said, "If I'm going to bother to put pants on and leave my apartment, it'd better be worth it."Stephanie:That's pretty great, and true. I feel that.Joe:It's like if I need batteries, do I want to get in the car and drive and go buy batteries? Well, if I do that and go to the store and they don't have that special battery, then it's really disappointing because now I spent 20, 30 minutes going out of my house to go get something because I wanted it right now and then they don't have it. This is why consumers do it a few times, they just start ordering online.Stephanie:Yeah. And I think the product, like you said, has to be worth it. How are you guys thinking about the experiences piece? Because we've had quite a few guests come on the show who've talked about their retail locations and turning them more into an experiential place, where you go there and you've got the certain music, and the vibes, and maybe you've got a yoga class going on over here and you're going there, not just to maybe pick up your product that you did order online during this time period, but you're also going there to maybe experience something that you wouldn't get elsewhere.Stephanie:A lot of people are saying retail's dead and I definitely do not see that happening. I'm like there is pent up demand to go in person and to go into stores, but I do think now there's going to be a new level of expectations of the consumers, not just going to want to go and shop around, they're going to want something else. How do you do that?Joe:I think that the role for retail is changing in terms of what experience means. If you go back 30 years ago, 40 years ago, shoppers didn't know what the new fashions were until they went to their favorite store and they saw what the new fashions were. So you went to your favorite store whether you're a Neiman Marcus shopper or Macy's shopper or a Target shopper, you went to the store to see what's available, what's in now. And there was that discovery and learning and value proposition that that store was giving you by bringing you things that fit your demographic. Today people know what's current as the store learns what's current. It's what the celebrities are wearing between social media and how quick things are in internet time. There is really no discovery value proposition for mass merchandise things.Joe:Where we see real success is curation. So you go to a store that's not a little bit of everything. It's a store that dives deep into a lifestyle or deep into a fashion style or deep into a demographic, and you go there and you immerse yourself in that brand, and then you immerse yourself in what that brand is about. That's the discovery. If you're someone who likes West Elm, and the style that West Elm delivers, you go to West Elm to see things that would be hard to find on your own elsewhere. If you wanted to go find your own curation, it would take you months of time on the internet trying to go discover all that stuff. But you can go to a store where their buyers have pulled that look together for you.Joe:If you're a Pottery Barn shopper, same kind of thing. You go to Pottery Barn and they've curated a set of things that fit a certain demographic and the lifestyle that they're looking for. So I think you're going to see a lot more of that curation. We did tour in New York City a couple of years ago, and the stores that were really doing amazing well were really deep into that curation idea.Stephanie:Yeah. I love that. I completely agree. I'm thinking right now about going into a Crate and Barrel or something like that, and I'm looking to find new things of a similar style, instead of going somewhere that's exactly the same that I can just find online. That's a really interesting take. How are you viewing the omni-channel experience of making sure that's frictionless when someone's looking online and then going into the store and having a good experience online and offline?Joe:I think a few retailers are starting to really get it right. I think in the beginning, omni-channel was a poor band-aid for I'm out of stock in the store, and I think most customers didn't see that as a good solution. I think the right way to think of omni-channel is there used to be a really consistent funnel for how shoppers and the shopper journey went from just initial discovery all the way through purchase, and that funnel, I think, no longer exists. I think people find out about products all over the place. You might see it on a television show. You might hear about it from a friend, you might see it on social media, and your discovery happens in your life. Omni-channel really ought to enable you to easily find something you're interested in whenever you see it, or whenever you want to. There was an old Burger King commercial Have It Your Way, I think 30 years ago.Stephanie:I remember that.Joe:I think the omni-channel today really means that shoppers ought to be able to engage with a brand or engage with a product wherever and however they want to.Stephanie:And I like the idea too of picking up where you left off. Like if I'm shopping online and then I enter the store or get near it, a subtle reminder of, "Oh, hey. You were looking at this and it's actually here on aisle seven," or whatever it is, directing me to complete the consumer journey. But I don't feel like it's there yet. I know we've got beacons and ability to see when people are entering your store and track that, but it seems like not a lot of retailers have fully leaned into that method to make sure that the full experience is cohesive.Joe:Yeah. I think that we're coming from the early days of that. One of my favorite stories years ago, we were shopping for a Tiffany lamp years ago, a couple of years ago, Tiffany lamp. And I searched online one night, looked at some options. We went to a store and we bought a Tiffany lamp. And for the next two months, every banner ad I had on the internet was for Tiffany lamps.Stephanie:Yeah. It's like I'm past Tiffany now. I'm onto the next kind of lamp.Joe:I think that what's happened is there's been too much of trying to use algorithms and online searches and data to try to target individuals with things that you think they might be interested in and not enough focus on helping people build a cart of things that you are interested in. So, for example, imagine if you turn it around for a minute and the brand for an item that you're interested in has an ability for you to put something that you're interested in, in a basket. And then when you pass a store that carries that item, that has it in stock, they flag you that this thing you're interested is in this store, and it's almost turning it all the way around from the store or the brand pushing to having the brand help guide you to where you find things.Stephanie:Yeah, that's really good. That's the kind of world I would like to live in where it actually is helpful and not annoying. I was just speaking with another guest about text messages and how certain retail locations will be like, "Come on in for 20% off," and I'm like, it's not helpful when I'm sitting on my couch, watching The Bachelor. It's helpful when I'm walking into the store and they're like, "Hey, you better make sure you buy that rug from World Market because here's a coupon now. So make sure you finish the journey and you don't just walk in and out." But yeah-Joe:You're reaching to the point that's one of the things I think the retailers especially are missing, and I don't know what a good analogy is, but I think that discounts and sales and coupons are an overused tool and they influence a lot of people, but not everybody. I think that for some people being first is more important than getting it on sale. For other people something scarce and having access to it before it runs out. So I think there's a lot of opportunity, even just convenience. Take a grocery store, nearly every grocery store I've ever been in, they put all the staples in the back, and they run with 19th century's retail logic of, oh, if I make people walk all the way through the store, they might buy some more stuff.Stephanie:Not me, I got blinders on. I'm like I need my milk and goodbye.Joe:It turns out that the convenience stores like 7-Eleven sell a ton of milk. I don't know if you've ever bought a gallon of milk at 7-Eleven.Stephanie:I have, yeah. Hey, my two year old, desperate times desperate measures.Joe:And it's about convenience. So if I were in a grocery chain, in fact, I talked to one about this big chain recently and said, "Why don't you take your house brands of the staples and put them in a section in the front of the store where they're super convenient and mark them up, make them the same price or maybe even a little bit more than the branded stuff." And the answer was, "Well, we tried that and it didn't work." I'm like, "Oh, when did you do that?" "It was like 10 years ago." I'm like, "People have changed a lot in 10 years."Stephanie:Yeah. I'd rather pay more to get right to it. So what are some maybe interesting stories like that, where they have listened to your advice and they've seen good results? Or anything where you're like, "Oh, I remember this one customer did this and they increased revenue a bunch because of this one subtle tweak in the store layout or how they did their products or inventory," or whatever it may be.Joe:We'll start a little bit maybe with I think that pretty much in every case when we've helped a retailer test or try a technology, the results always exceed the indicators that they put forward. And the very be wilderness thing to us is that even though these solutions look to deliver tremendous results and impact, they still don't scale them.Stephanie:I don't think.Joe:Years ago we had a partner that was putting cameras in the ceiling to measure shopper engagement, how long does it take for a staff to engage a customer? And they happen to have as an artifact of that, I won't say the brand, but they had a brand of popular, very popular Cola was in the camera view on the shelf. And they observed that this diet version, this Cola was out of stock almost all the time. So they went to the head of all stores for this giant grocery chain and said, "Hey, I think that there's an opportunity for you to..." Actually it was, I'm sorry, the brand, they went to the brand and said, "You got a not at stock problem in this grocery chain." The guy they talked to said, "Oh, there's no way. I was head of merchandising in Southern California. We have people in that store twice a day checking inventory. Its inventory are stocked twice a week. We are never out of product."Joe:And I'm like, "Oh, really? Here's some video of how much you're out of stock." And it turned out that within a half a day that they stocked, they would sell out and they would be out of stock all day, for two days. The problem we run into is you put process in place and you tell people to follow the process and it may or may not happen. So they look at this and they're like, "Well, there's tremendous value in having this product in stock. It's a driver product for the store." If they're out of stock, and the store cares that they're out of stock. The cost of deploying the solution was probably $30 a month per store, not a huge thing for one of their top 70 driver products, and yet it never scaled.Stephanie:Interesting.Joe:And you feel this thing. There was another one where the labor, they showed this 30% increase in tool sales in a major chain by tracking the staff and shopper engagement and improving that. It was really simple solution. Almost never scales. Now one that we have seen scale, Theatro makes a Voice over IP ear piece set up for staff. So if you go to, I think, well Bass Pro Shops, as an example, who's the one that does jeans and apparel for teams? They all have an ear piece and a radio.Stephanie:Oh, Alister? Gap.Joe:Anyway, it doesn't matter. A lot of retailers use radios, and there's a cost in the radios, and for a parody, they can switch over to this Voice over IP, and this is one where we're seeing people test it, and then in a matter of weeks completely changed all their devices over. The value in that if you look at it, if you're on a radio network, everybody that has an ear piece in their ear hears all the chatter from everybody all day. With this new solution, you can address a message to an individual person. So only the person you want to talk to gets the message. Then there's the ability to ask for stock and deliveries and things like that. So they've also built the ability, some of their customers, if somebody drives up to do a pickup, you order online, pick up at the curb, you don't want there to be a high friction experience. You want to be able to pull up, very quickly have somebody bring your item and leave.Stephanie:So where do you think then the future of retail? What does it look like with all these new... Some of them feel like little tweaks, a radio where you just talk to who you want. To me, some of those things feel little. Are there not enough incentives for these retail stores to change? I know you had mentioned Wall Street maybe beating up on retailers a little bit when it comes to wanting to try new and innovative things. What do you think is holding back retail right now?Joe:I think a big part of it is Wall Street, again, back to that root cause problem. There's a set of retailers that we think of as digital media, and these are brands that started as a purely online brand, and now they're going to open up stores and they realize once they get to about a billion dollars or so in revenue to get to the next level, they've got to go physically open stores or expand their reach.Stephanie:Yeah, like Warby Parkers of the world.Joe:Yeah, exactly. And these digital native retailers, when they come into the physical world, they expect access to the same kind of insights that they've been getting with their online entity. They want to understand how many shoppers are coming in and when? What's the dwell? When people are picking things up and putting them down and not buying them, it's like something in your cart that you took back out. And they come in with a long list of insights that they'd like to be able to get in the retail operation. The question in Intel is how can you help me find people that can bring these solutions or help me deploy these solutions? And when I go to more traditional brick and mortar retail, the conversation is trying to convince them they should have these insights.Joe:So I think that a part of it is the digital natives come from a world of when you're online only, the only insights you have into your shopper is through the data trail they leave behind them. I think if you go to brick and mortar, they're not used to capitalizing and utilizing that data. Talked to one partner recently, they haven't validated this, but they said that the amount of data that Walmart generates in a day would take 26 years to upload to the cloud, being given traditional techniques.Stephanie:Wow.Joe:So there's a tremendous amount of data created in the enterprise of retail every day. And we think with IoT and the cost of compute coming down so much, and the ability to use AI to get insights, you can utilize a lot of this data at the edge without incurring the costs of moving it to the cloud and trying to process it there. I think that if you imagine that you're moving petabytes of data to the cloud, and you're trying to find the needles in the haystack, it's a really big haystack. How about if I just try to sift through the insights real time as they're occurring in the store?Joe:We talked to a major fast food chain who prides themselves on fresh product, and one of their major problems, I won't say what the product is, but they were throwing away 40% of their product to maintain the freshness, and they wanted to have a short wait because they understood freshness was important, and freshness was important for the brand, but they were having a huge product waste problem, and they wanted to use predictive analytics to understand what's happening in the parking lot? What's happening in the drive through and what's my queue look like in the store so they could predict when to put product in the cooker versus cooking it always, and then having it there just in case.Stephanie:Were you guys able to help with that?Joe:Absolutely. That kind of change drives tremendous business cost savings, but also ensures that your product is fresh and that your customers are satisfied in having to wait for product. So when done well, we think these insights deliver not only customer satisfaction, but also tremendous business impact.Stephanie:I mean, that also makes sense for why a lot of the more Legacy Retailers are scooping up all these DTC brands and keeping them separate and learning from them to see like, oh, what are you guys doing over there? And then starting to integrate them into the org to maybe be brought up to speed a bit with how maybe retail should operate from a digital perspective and what are the expectations coming in from someone who's used to that? And how can it get implemented into the org? We had someone on from Kellogg's who said just that. They would acquire different DTC brands, but then keep them off on their own so they didn't get too mixed into the Kellogg's culture because they wanted the DTC brands to stay as their own brand. So they didn't, I guess, turn too corporate if it happens. I don't know.Joe:Maybe not say corporate. I think you don't want to turn them old school.Stephanie:Yeah, exactly.Joe:[crosstalk] We see that same thing, and you mentioned the expectations. One of the ways we explained this consumer expectations, every time you have a better consumer experience on your mobile, better app experience, in the back of your mind, you wonder why every experience isn't that good. I'm old enough that I used to travel where you had to go to the ticket counter to get your boarding passes before you could print it at home, and then they went to kiosk where you could print them at the airport and it was an amazing improvement, and then they went to actually really pretty good apps. So airline apps, you can see if there's a meal on the plane, you can pick your seat. You can do quite a few things, check the status of the incoming flight, et cetera. Airline apps are really pretty good, and I travel a ton and I stay in hotels all the time. Why are the hotel apps worse than the airline apps? Why can't I pick my room?Stephanie:That's true. Why? I'm sure you probably asked them before.Joe:Well, and actually it's interesting. It turns out that the most hotel chains are using a third party service to assign and block rooms.Stephanie:Got it.Joe:So they don't actually have control over that, which is kind of crazy.Joe:And so I think what happens is anytime you have this better experience as a consumer, then it raises the bar on your expectations for every other experience. Cabs were, I've never enjoyed a cab ride. Not once in my life, I think.Stephanie:No, never.Joe:Uber realized early that there was a huge amount of friction in getting ride and people hated cabs. You'd call for a cab, all they would do is throw it on the radio network and maybe a cab responds, maybe not. You didn't have any predictability. When you get to your location, the last thing you want to do is sit there in the cab on the street corner and spend two or three minutes paying the cab driver.Stephanie:Yeah, awkward.Joe:And they understood that there was this huge friction. Well, now that Uber has taken the friction out of getting a ride, consumers see friction elsewhere in their life, and like why do I have this friction? Why is this not as good as an Uber?Stephanie:So what areas do you think are the biggest friction points when it comes to retail locations right now? And what do you wish things were looking like maybe over the next couple of years? What are you guys planning for? Where are you hoping the world will be in like three to five years?Joe:Well, we think that you're going to see a lot more delivery. I think that grocery delivery was very slowly ramping, pick up at the curb or delivery, and with the pandemic, a ton of people jumped in and tried it that probably wouldn't have tried it for a long time. So the adoption curve for that took a real steep spike up, and we don't think that that adoption is going to slow down. So I think that the grocery, and the grocery business is tough. They run really slim margins, and we talked to one major chain and they said, if you pick up at the curb, that they lose $5. And if they deliver, they lose 10 to 15. So the chains have to figure out how they're going to deal with that. There are a bunch of startups that are building essentially dark store technology. So instead of having a retail location with a giant parking lot and a big square footage and employees, they'll end up with a small industrial space with all the same inventory, but some robotics that will pull stuff off the shelf and pack totes.Stephanie:We actually just talked to a company called Wolseley who talked about how they see the future being... They're B2B also for plumbing and HVAC and things like that, but they're like, "I'm not so sure if retail for us anyways is the way to go anymore," instead of just having a small guide shop out front, and then just having a micro fulfillment center or a warehouse in the back, and then they get your stuff and give it to you on the curb. But why do you need to come in for their business anyways and shop around when a lot of times these contractors already know what they want. They don't need to walk around like they would at Home Depot.Joe:It's funny, I was at a home improvement store recently, and I'm waiting in customer service to make a return, and they're on the phone with a customer who very wisely placed an order for like 50 things, probably contractor, but he did an online pickup at the curb order. They were on hold with this guy and they're talking to each other saying, "We don't have the labor to have somebody spend an hour running around the store to pick all these stuff." What a smart contractor? Why not have the home improvement staff eat that labor versus him send somebody? And he said, "Hey, can you please call me once it's all picked?"Stephanie:That's smart. I mean, how can-Joe:And of course they had to say, "Sure." The manager's like, "Yeah, absolutely." So I think what's going to happen is these expectations are going to keep rising from consumers, and the retailers are going to have to figure out how to adapt.Stephanie:Yeah. It seems it's the pricing thing, though. Right now everyone is expecting a curbside delivery or something to be free because it's new and that's the expectation now, but I could see eventually being like, if you want someone to shop for you, just like you would with any of these grocery delivery shopping apps, you're going to have to pay a little bit to have them go and-Joe:But look at it this way. We talked, again, one of these companies building these systems and we talked to a big chain that's testing it. If you go to the normal financial model for a grocery store, big piece of real estate, prime location, huge parking lot, a lot of physical assets tied up. And if you go to a dark store, really cheap, industrial space real estate, so the real estate model's completely different, the staffing model's completely different, and the financials could be such that, and again, I don't know, but it actually might be cheaper to deliver groceries that way. Now, it's a new build add, it's a new approach, but again it's a huge change, but it doesn't necessarily have to mean higher prices for consumers. And I think what's going to happen is some will try to charge more and others will figure out how to go do it in a way that doesn't cost more.Stephanie:That's a good point. I like that. So how do you think about-Joe:It's competitiveness, right?Stephanie:Yeah. Hey, that's economics right there. Someone will figure it out and put the other one out of business possibly, or not. But how are you thinking about new technology right now? I know we were talking a bit about AI and how it's impacting retail and retail workers. What are your thoughts around that or other technologies that are maybe going to disrupt retail?Joe:Well, still really believe a lot in computer vision, and I think one of the things I'm really proud of for Intel is we've always been huge advocates and protectors of consumer privacy, personal privacy. So as a company, our core culture, our philosophy, our lobbying efforts are all around protecting privacy. Our point of view in using cameras in retail, and we've been helping people do this for many years, we only want to do it in a way that's totally anonymous. So it's not like I'm trying to detect Joe when Joe walks in the store. I want to look at the pattern of behavior that this shopper has anonymously, and what have people in the past that had that similar pattern of behavior been interested in, and how might I go send some staff over to do the right thing there. So take me, for example, if we go to the mall and I'm with my wife or daughters, I'm probably hanging out with him and I'm not really shopping. So I'm wandering in the store-Stephanie:You're that personally couch just chilling.Joe:Yeah, or I might be wandering around in the men's department, but I'm kind of killing time, but I'm probably open for somebody to come show me something, because I'm browsing and you could observe that, oh, this person is slowly walking around and looking at stuff. There's other times when I need another white dress shirt for a business trip, and I know exactly which door to park at, that's the shortest distance to the white dress shirts. And I'm walking in a direct line to a section. Computer vision and AI could detect that this shopper's not browsing, don't bother him. Don't send them a discount coupon or don't send him alert to some new item they might be interested in.Stephanie:Do you have retailers right now who are implementing that? Because that sounds awesome and a really good way to personalize to the shoppers coming in. Do you have anyone who's trying anything out yet?Joe:There've been lots of things to experiment and test, a lot of partners building solutions like that. I think the world of privacy right now is way too fragmented. Too many different points of view, too many different state perspectives on it. You've got some places where cameras are banned. You can't use a camera at all. And I think that the governments really need to get their act together and understand how is the data going to be used? How is the technologies? How can it be done in a way to protect privacy? In the implementations, we advocate no data ever leaves the edge, the system. The only thing that ever leaves the system it's account. This kind of shopper did this kind of pattern of behavior. Everything's fully anonymous. Back in the early days, we actually went and talked to governments across Europe where the privacy is even more simple, and every government entity we talked to was totally comfortable with the approach we were advocating.Joe:I think the computer vision that we think is really going to be profound, and it'll be used for mundane things like trying to understand out of stocks or inventory situation. Years ago, I won't say the name of the chain, but there was a study where they're comparing Amazon to a giant big-box retailer. They went to 25 locations of the big-box retailer and bought these 40 items and then they priced it out on Amazon. The headline for the story was Amazon was more expensive than the physical retail location, which was big news at the time because everybody thought Amazon is just winning on price. But the subtitle of the article, the second message was, but 25% of the items on average were out of stock at the brick and mortar retailer.Joe:We happened to be meeting with the executives in that company about a week after that, story came out and their heads were exploding because they thought they had a 5% out of stock problem. And it turns out that they did in terms of it was in the store, but it had a huge congestion of stuff in the back room that wasn't on the shelf yet. And as we dug into it further, we did a lot of work with them using computer vision and whatnot, this is years ago, and it turned out that one of the behaviors they had that they had to try to break is the people stocking the shelves would bring a box of say large size mint shampoo out and they needed to have the small and the large, but they didn't have the small, so they just filled the shelf up in the large.Joe:So when somebody came to look for the small, it's out of stock, and the shelf looked full because they would face it all out so that every front was full of product, but they didn't have all the products on the shelf. It was really because the people stocking the shelves were not following the process and they're being lazy, and that's where we thought to-Stephanie:Use robots then. Robots aren't lazy and they listen to whatever you tell them. So that must just be the way to fix things.Joe:Yeah, maybe. I guess as a tech company maybe that's a good thing for us, but I think that, again, if it's a staple, you just want it to be convenient, and convenient means the fastest, easiest way possible. To me it's like when I run out a catch-up, wouldn't it be amazing if it was just at my door automatically the moment I needed it? Well, we're not there yet, but at some point, somebody's going to figure out how to make my running out of ketchup something that won't happen.Stephanie:Yeah. I thought there were brands or companies working on that to track what's in your refrigerator and then reorder it if it's out. Maybe that never came to fruition and that was more just that [inaudible 00:36:00].Joe:They've been a lot. We actually had some partners who were doing that years ago as well. The challenge ran into it I think is how do you know what's in your fridge? Does the consumer scan all the barcodes? Do you have the discipline to scan a barcode when you run out. These problems certainly aren't easy to solve. We mentioned earlier out of stock, so I'm working at that problem. We worked with probably, I don't know, more than 20 big retailers on trying to see how RFID could help solve their inventory accuracy. Then we would always start with taking one of their stores and we would do a really deep physical inventory. We never found any retailer that had better than 65% of their skews correctly counted.Stephanie:Wow. That's sad.Joe:Then if you want to be able to compete with an online-only retailer who gives free shipping, you probably have to give free shipping, but wouldn't it be ideal if you could deliver all of your stuff from a local store so that you minimize the shipping time, you minimize the shipping cost. But if you don't know what your inventory is, then you take an order assuming you've got really close delivery, but then it's out of stock in the store. We talked to the department store who was really aggressively trying to do this fulfill from store, and they were spending on average 20 minutes per item to find it on the floor.Stephanie:Jeez, if they're taking 20 minutes-Joe:That's [crosstalk 00:37:26], right?Stephanie:Yeah, that's wild.Joe:So they were looking at RFID to try to be able to help with that as well. With RFID, you would know where things are in the store. This is another one too. We talked to, gosh, I'm try to really keep people anonymous here, a head of stores executive who came from a large brand who had a lot of stores, and they deployed RFID in all their products in the branded stores, and they've got their sales go up like 60%.Stephanie:So why wouldn't everyone do RFID? We're talking about Japan's doing it with all their stores now, brands who are implementing it, are taking off when it comes to sales. Why wouldn't people? What's the holdup? Why are more people-Joe:That's the big mystery? So if you can figure this out through your interview, please share.Stephanie:I will have to start asking around. I'm like it seems like a no brainer. Is it hard to get your manufacturers to do it?Joe:I think there's a lot of processes that get touched, is one of the problems. There's your supply chain, there's your distribution center, there's all the staff in the distribution center, there's process changes at the store. So there's a lot of pieces of this that end up getting touched. We talked to one retailer, big retailer, who they made the change on the POS. It was a touchscreen checkout for the staff. They had to do a training class to train people on this change, and it was a two hour training class for like 170,000 employees. And they said it was all extra time. You couldn't do it on the floor. So now you've got 340,000 extra hours of labor to make a simple change on a user interface.Joe:I think when it gets to doing these kinds of changes, what happens when there's a return? What happens when there's a return but the RFID tag is no longer in the item? So there's a lot of things that have to change. I think what's going to happen is we're going to see branded retail do this first because they control the supply chain, and you're going to see some really tremendous results. The example I gave you when they were head of brand and retail at one brand, and then went to another one, the challenge with the second one is they had a lot more suppliers, so they had to manage a lot of factories to supply their stores, even though they were all their own brand. It was still a supply chain challenge.Stephanie:Well, it seems like Whole Foods and Amazon are going to be the first ones that can do it. They've got the ability to, especially with Amazon's operations and processes, and they've got the Whole Foods brand going on. They control all their supply chain.Joe:And the Amazon could decide to spend a gigantic amount of cash modernizing Whole Foods infrastructure and Wall Street wouldn't blink an eye. Kroger could never do that because Wall Street wouldn't let them.Stephanie:That's sad, and also just shows how there's, I don't know. It makes you wonder about how a lot of companies right now aren't going the IPO route, and I get it. I get it hearing and seeing the incentives like that, or lack of incentives of wanting to... They talk about destroy your business to make an even better one and how some of the best companies had to do that, whether it be the Netflix of the worlds. But yeah, it seems like a lot is held back.Joe:What do you mean? Private equity, we're seeing more and more where private equity will come in and the leadership of the company will be in favor of a private equity takeover because it can pull themselves off the Wall Street treadmill for a bit to make these fundamental changes.Stephanie:But isn't it usually a bad sign when PE comes in? Don't most of those companies end up going bankrupt when this happens?Joe:I think there's a couple kinds of private equity. Look at Dell. Not a retail case, but Dell they needed to retool Dell and they needed to not be under the scrutiny of Wall Street for a while, and Dell has done amazing things through the use of private equity. I think if the company is fundamentally unsound, private equity might be vulture capital, where they come in and strip things down to the bones and get rid of it. But I think fundamentally sound business that needs to make changes that aren't really possible to Wall Street, I think this is going to be one of the areas where I think there's going to be a lot of money made where private equity is going to go look at some of these really good retailers that fundamentally have to change. And if wall street doesn't change the model P&L expectations, I think private equity will become a much bigger factor.Stephanie:That's a hot take. I like that. That's very interesting. So if there was some data right now that brands should be collecting at their retail locations, that's not really hard to implement, but they should be doing from the start, what comes to mind? Where you're like, "Right away, you should be collecting at least these five attributes on your customers as they come in and you don't need computer vision. You don't need beacons or RFID, but you should at least have this to be able to give a better experience to your consumer." Anything come to mind?Joe:I think that the thing that is most fundamental, and it's still shocking that all retailers don't do this, and that's just counting your traffic. Not counting it daily, but knowing what's happening with your traffic every minute.Joe:But I think understanding your traffic, that's the most important thing for an online business. What's my traffic? Dwell. How long was this shopper in the store? How long was this shopper on my site? What things did the shopper browse? What was their click path for my online? What was their path in the store? For me, if I were going to leave tech and move into retail, I would start with how does an online retailer excel? And how would I try to get all those same insights for brick and mortar? One of the things to me that... There's a tremendous amount of demand created real time in retail. So we saw one study that says 60% of purchases in stores in the US and Europe are for things people didn't know they were going to buy when they went to the store. So a huge amount of real-time demand. You see something, you like it, and you decide you want to buy it. Well, how disappointing is it when you see something you like and then it's out of stock in your size?Stephanie:That's worse sometimes.Joe:That goes from being a point of excitement. You got a little bit of excitement to buy something and then you're let down. What we would say is rather than having mannequins displaying items that the brand is paying you to show this week. We talked to retail after retailer after two or three days of something on the mannequin that sold out, but they're paid to run it for a week. So they're creating demand for something that's sold out because the contract of the brand said you need to show this item for a week. It's funny. If you talk to a giant apparel brand about this problem, honestly, one of the C-suite executive was like, "Oh my God, that's why stuff's always out of stock in the store." I'm like, "Yeah, you have some flexibility and freedom to the staff to put what they have too much of."Joe:We talked to one major department store chain that made that change a few years ago where they said, "Instead of getting paid to run things on the mannequins, we're going to have our staff every evening look at inventory and whatever they have too much of, put that on the mannequin for the next day." And it's amazing how much they were able to sell through inventory before they had the market down. We would advocate that at the front of the store where you've got posters and prints, maybe it's a department store and it's prom dress season, so you're showing prom dresses on the poster, that isn't really relevant to most of your shoppers. Most girls are not prom dress age. Most moms are not at the age of having daughters that are prom dress age. Most dads don't buy the prom dress.Joe:Put a more simple thing in it. Put a digital sign at the front of the store with a camera that will anonymously look at age and gender. And then if you're really sophisticated, you could say, "Okay, well now I'm going try in inventory system and I have too many of something." Phoenix it was a really dry winter. We have too many raincoats. I see a guy coming in and I've got too many men's raincoats. Throw a men's raincoat on the screen. And even the next step, we can estimate the size of the shopper. So I've got a really big guy coming in, but I'm out of extra large raincoats. Don't show them a raincoat. These subtle things, and it's not like every shopper is going to buy a raincoat, but suddenly putting something that's possibly more relevant on the screen than a prom dress is a great way to use that valuable real estate. That's the kind of thing that an online retailer will do. Like Zulily, they introduce thousands of new products every day.Stephanie:Zulily? Yeah.Joe:We met with them one day at one point, and they said in the morning, early in the morning, they have one landing page, and by 8:00 AM, they have 280 unique landing pages. Then they know what demographic, what bucket you fall in for them as a shopper. So when you go to their landing page at 10 in the morning, you're going to see something that's full of things likely to be relevant to you.Stephanie:We were talking with Lenovo way early on in the show and they were saying they have 85,000 different landing pages going on at any one point. I'm like, "Oh my gosh, how do you keep track of that?" But he's like, "Oh yeah, that's just how you test and know what people want." So it's just very interesting. But I think Zulily though, when they say how many landing pages they have, they are all about talking about being personalized and stuff, but I think a lot of times they just think having a new name isn't being personalized and they count that towards a new landing page. That does not count just saying, "Hi, Stephanie," or, "Hi, Joe."Joe:The way they were explaining to us is if you shop for baby clothes, you often are buying baby clothes, your landing page would have baby clothes on it. If you don't buy baby clothes, your landing page would not have baby clothes.Stephanie:Yeah. That's more personalized. I like that. Very cool.Joe:The key thing here is that this is a journey. I don't think anybody's going to go make all these changes overnight, but there's the ability to start using this information. I think one starting, know your shoppers. It's amazing how many retailers when we talk to them about what are your shopper's pain points? What are your shoppers not happy with? They don't have a good answer, which is really surprising. For me, when we're out trying to define solutions for the market, the first thing we look for is what's a business problem. And if I go into education, what is the problem that educators are having right now that they're worried about? We go into hospitality, what problem do they need help solving? I often tell people at Intel, we have 3,200 PhDs. If we understand your problem, we can figure out how to solve it. And it's amazing how many retailers don't spend time really understanding what friction or what pain points do their shoppers have.Stephanie:Yeah. I think they're going to have to now. I think now with everything that's happened and you had the acceleration of ecommerce, there will be, like you said, new expectations. And yeah, I think the theme is now there's also all these new technology to use and utilize, and maybe implement if it's allowed, but then putting that extra level of human curation on top of it when needed is going to be the way of the future. So use the tech, but also have it curated and have the human feel to it that people are going to miss over this next year, especially with how much we've been at home all by ourselves.Joe:And after people have really radically modified their behavior for a year. A few months it was one thing, but we're coming up on a year where people have had to change pretty fundamentally how they shop and live. How much of that's going to stick permanently? Like I said, I think grocery, and some of those things are going to way more people will be doing that post pandemic than did pre pandemic and they'll stick with it. What else is going to fundamentally change?Stephanie:Yeah, I agree. All right. Well, I know we're running up on time, so I want to shift over to the lightning round brought to you by our friends at Salesforce Commerce Cloud. This is where I'm going to ask you a question and you have a minute or less to answer. Are you ready, Joe?Joe:I am ready.Stephanie:All right. What's the nicest thing anyone's ever done for you?Joe:Oh my gosh. Our twin daughters were born three months premature, and the amount of help and leaning in that we had as relatively young and new to Arizona couple was just staggering. Probably 80 families leaned in to help us, which is amazing,Stephanie:Man, I'm going to come to Arizona. That sounds like a nice spot to be. How old are your twins?Joe:They're 30 today. That was a long time ago.Stephanie:Nice. I also have twin boys, and I'm a twin.Joe:That's awesome.Stephanie:What's up next on your reading list?Joe:I'm really actually studying more around AI and frameworks and trying to get a bit smarter around the nerdy geek stuff. So I don't have any grade to casual reading. For me it's more about the tech.Stephanie:Hey, that's good. Well, I was just going to ask you what one thing do you not understand today that you wish you did? Is it AI, or are there other things that you wish you understood?Joe:I grew up as a silicon engineer and so I'm a hardware person and I'm not a software developer, I never have been. And so I'm really trying to understand the worldview of a software developer more than a hardware person. At least I think I know I don't know everything. So it's almost like the first step of the 12 step program, acknowledging that I don't know everything, I'm there.Stephanie:Well then maybe you want to check out the book I'm just starting to read. I think it's called Ask your Developer by the Twilio CEO. I just started reading it.Joe:That sounds good.Stephanie:Yeah, there you go. If you were to have a podcast, what would it be about? And who would your first guest be?Joe:My podcast would be on how technology is going to fundamentally transform shoppers' lives.Stephanie:I love that. Who would your first guest be?Joe:And my first guest, I would actually like to have Bezos.Stephanie:As do I. Let's go get him. Jeff, where are you at?Joe:See if he can help you with that.Stephanie:Yeah, I know. Is Moore's law dead?Joe:Moore's law, if you think about it purely as Silicon, which is when Gordon created that, it was really a silicon construct. We're no longer on that same track, but at a system level in terms of what a system does for you, we're on a similar curve. One of my favorite ways to explain this is, if you hold up your smartphone, the amount of compute in your smartphone 10 years ago was 100X the volume and the same thing's going to be true. So if you look at this amount of compute today is going to be one-100th the size in 10 years. Or you could say, "Hey, what would 100X?" It'd be a giant server room could be in your phone. And so if you think about it, it's not a matter of if I have enough compute to do something, it's a matter of when I have enough compute to do something.Stephanie:Got it.Joe:And I think that's probably to me the magic of Moore's law and some people really get it, and they really understand that it's just a matter of a few years until the compute is cheap enough to do what you want. We're talking about AI for a minute, if we go back 10 years ago at Intel, we had $100,000 computer workstation on every one of our factory tools and these are $50 million tools. Workstation and a huge number of engineers creating algorithms to optimize our manufacturing. So we were doing AI that was very expensive 10 years ago. Very few manufacturing processes can afford that. You jump forward to today and it's simple and cheap and easy to have that amount of compute, and the maturity of this AI computer environment is so much improved that anybody can really deploy what took an army of engineers and very expensive compute 10 years ago.Stephanie:Oh, I love that. I forget what show podcast I was listening to where they were talking about AI and saying a lot of the stuff that we have today, we had access to 10 years ago. We just didn't have the compute power and the ability to do it, but people knew it was coming. And I'd always be interested to hear from those people who could see the vision and be like, "I just need another five or 10 years of acceleration and then my product will work." It's very interesting.Joe:If you imagine the amount of compute that you can afford, whatever that number is, $1000, $100, whatever, but the amount of compute you can afford is going to double in performance every 18 months. Okay, double, you can imagine that, but you don't realize it's 10X in five years and 10X is really hard to comprehend.Stephanie:Yeah, it's hard to extrapolate things like that. Well, I appreciate you answering that question. I was like, "Hmm, I know Joe will have a good answer for this one, even though it's very maybe off of ecommerce." But Joe, thank you so much for coming on the show. Where can people find out more about you and your work?Joe:Well, I work for Intel, obviously. We do have a retail landing page at Intel. We actually don't sell anything to retailers. All of our work is done enabling suppliers to retail to build better solutions, and I try to spend all my time, if possible, talking to retailers to better understand the business problems they have so I can help guide my partners in building better solutions.Stephanie:Cool. Sounds good. Well, people will go and find you if they have any questions I'm sure then. Thanks so much.Joe:Thanks, Stephanie.

In today’s Solidarity Fridays episode, Joe and Kyle sit down and discuss some very scientific (read: hard to understand) articles. First, they talk about one on Salvinorin A and its interactions with a different receptor than other psychedelics (kappa opioid receptors) and what that could mean, and a related article from Wired- a first-hand account of taking salvia as part of a brain-imaging study at Johns Hopkins University. The biggest takeaway from these can be summed up in researcher Manoj Doss's closing quote: "Not only does this tell me how little we understand psychedelics, it also tells me how little we understand how to study them.” They then review a recent double-blind, randomized, placebo-controlled study on LSD, which showed results we expect to see, but the full details haven't been released yet. This leads to a discussion about intergenerational trauma and researchers finding that children of Holocaust survivors often display more trauma-related behavior than their parents, commonality between people of Irish and German decent (due to shared traumatic histories), the idea of "group soul," how the lymphatic system works within the brain to remove toxins and how this and the blood-brain barrier can be affected by a concussion, and the effects caesarian sections have both on an individual person as well as in higher concentrations of people per country. Do countries with more C-sections produce more traumatized people? Lastly, they talk about how psychedelics opening up people's brains and thought processes could possibly lead toward more conspiratorial thinking, which leads to discussion about QAnon, Alan Moore, a crazy story about 9/11 from Kyle, and the very idea of truth: what is your personal criteria for something being true? What do any of us really know? And one last reminder- October 28th is the premiere of the new 15-week online course offering called An Introduction to Philosophy and Psychedelics with Lenny Gibson, so if you're considering taking it, now is the time to sign up! Notable Quotes “Do we always need to seek ego death to have profound healing in psychedelic experiences? Could it be more gentle at times?” -Kyle “There seems to be this trend in the scientific world to say, ‘ok cool, our data suggests that this model of the world and how things are working is true, therefore this model is true’ and kind of sticking to your guns on that, and I think because we finally have our tools back where we can examine the psyche after decades of prohibition, that maybe let’s not rush- like, let’s keep them hypotheses, and perhaps we can be more fluid when new hypotheses come out about the world and the mind and the brain and these things. Perhaps that’ll help us not necessarily have to live in a certain paradigm for a super long time and we can be a little bit more paradigm-fluid maybe, or model-agnostic, and just kind of shift around as new data comes to light.” -Joe “What’s truth and how do you know what is true? ….How can you validate that that is true? And what do you know to be true in your world? It’s a hard thing to really understand. When I think about it, I think the only true thing that I know is this present moment.” -Kyle “It’s interesting. How do we know more? How does knowledge work? Epistemology, metaphysics-  these are massive questions, and as much as I appreciate science, I feel like science could benefit a lot from being philosophy-aware. Like, what are we really doing? What kind of metaphysics and epistemology underlies our go-forward here? Is there data to suggest that mind and brain aren’t the same thing? Yes, there is, including [from] top neurologists like Karl Pribram and others. Mind does not equal brain. And how do we transcend that and go forward? I know this is not what the establishment wants us to be saying, if we want to talk about conspiracies. Just look at scientism vs. philosophy and the humanist traditions- really, quite a battle that’s been going on for a long time, probably since the time of Newton or before.” -Joe  Links The Physicist and the Philosopher: Einstein, Bergson, and the Debate that Changed Our Understanding of Time, by Jimena Canales Wired.com: This Is My Brain on Salvia Nature.com: The Acute Effects of the Atypical Dissociative Hallucinogen Salvinorin A on Functional Connectivity in the Human Brain Psychedelics Today: Does Salvia Divinorum Have Therapeutic Potential? By Michelle Janikian Nature.com: Acute dose-dependent effects of lysergic acid diethylamide in a double-blind placebo-controlled study in healthy subjects Psychedelicreview.com: Ketanserin info Statista.com: Cesarean sections - Statistics & Facts Different Doorway: Adventures of a Caesarean Born, by Jane B. English The Concussion Repair Manual : A Practical Guide to Recovering from Traumatic Brain Injuries, by Dan Engle Nih.gov: Brain cleaning system uses lymphatic vessels Resonancescience.org (Resonance Science Foundation) Nytimes.com: Cleve Backster: He talked to plants. And they talked back. Support the show Patreon Leave us a review on Facebook or iTunes Share us with your friends Join our Facebook group - Psychedelics Today group – Find the others and create community. Navigating Psychedelics

In today’s Solidarity Fridays episode, Joe and Kyle sit down and discuss recent items in the news. They first discuss an update to last week's Michigan story: that this week, the Ann Arbor city council unanimously voted to decriminalize entheogenic plants. While this is great progress, remember that these substances are still illegal- just decriminalized, and as the saying goes: don't be the low-hanging fruit. This brings up the concept of likening the ability to get these substances to earning (and keeping) a driver's license, and the idea of temporary autonomous zones.  Next, they talk about the formation of a global group called the Psychedelic Medicine Association (PMA), formed to bridge the gap between the medical establishment, patients, and the industry in general. While there are already organizations doing this to an extent (like the very website you're on right now), most doctors don't have the time needed to really dive in, and shorter sound bites or articles vetted by those in the know could be very beneficial towards their growth in this new (to them) field.  They also report on a new study pinpointing exactly how psychedelics bind to 5-Ht2a serotonin receptors, which sets the stage for new kinds of antidepressants and antianxiety drugs, could help with cluster headaches, could even help explain HPPD (hallucinogen persisting perception disorder), and leads to a discussion of natural vs. synthetic drugs and the ethics of thinking someone needs to go through the psychedelic experience in order to heal. Lastly, they discuss Compass Pathways going live on the stock market, starting at $17 a share and hitting $38 within a week, which leads to a discussion on how larger companies sue each other over valuable information but regularly take information from Indigenous people and people who've been working in the underground for years. In order to pay proper respect to plant medicine lineages, should we "take" MDMA, LSD, ketamine, and other synthetic substances as part of a western lineage and categorize them differently? Notable Quotes “That’s the vision that I would like to see. More expanded access, less legal presence. Less Empire interfering with the rebels.” -Joe “Is it the case that people need psychedelic experience? No. I would prefer that more people have psychedelic experience, but I don’t think it’s an ethical obligation for more people to have it, or that ‘oh, in order to deserve healing, you need to go through that potentially tortuous or difficult experience [idea]'. Or joyous experience- it doesn’t have to be bad. There’s a lot there, and just thinking that people have an obligation to have the experience is a little whack to me.” -Joe “The hard problem of consciousness is still there. What is mind? Where is mind? What is consciousness? Where is consciousness? Really big questions. We know mind appears real. We know consciousness appears real, but what is that? There’s a lot of questions left. Philosophy of mind and neuroscience are not really communicating too regularly. I saw headlines: ‘Oh look! LSD finally solved! We know how it works now!’ Like, yea, kind of, but not really, because we don’t even know what mind or consciousness is. ...Most people are willing to say ‘mind equals brain,’ and use interchangeably. I think that’s pretty common parlance, but I suggest people check it out. Dig in a little bit to philosophy of mind and limitations of neuroscience and mind. I’m not trying to say we shouldn’t do neuroscience- we absolutely should. But, making conclusive statements like, ‘Oh cool, since neuroscience said this, then God isn’t real' [is] kind of a goofy argument.” -Joe “What it does it look like from a capitalistic point of view? X company develops a patent and then X other company goes over and wants to use that- what usually happens? There’s usually a lawsuit that entails, right? But if X company goes to an indigenous and underground community and extracts information and then they go use that to profit, what really happens there? Not much. The bigger company that has all the money usually will just dominate.” -Kyle Links Marijuanamoment.net: City Council Unanimously Votes To Decriminalize Psychedelics In Ann Arbor, Michigan Wikipedia.org: Temporary Autonomous Zone info Healtheuropa.eu: Psychedelics Association to Bridge Medical Establishment and Industry Gap Plantmedicine.org (Dr. Lynn Marie Morski's podcast) Psychologytoday.com: This Is Your Brain’s 5-HT2A Receptors on LSD or Psilocybin Narrative Medicine: The Use of  History and Story in the Healing Process by, Lewis Mehl-Madrona Genengnews.com: Scientists Solve High-Resolution Structure of Psychedelic Drugs Bound to Serotonin Receptors Realmoney.thestreet.com: Compass Pathways Takes Investors on a Trip to Higher Prices Support the show Patreon Leave us a review on Facebook or iTunes Share us with your friends Join our Facebook group - Psychedelics Today group – Find the others and create community. Navigating Psychedelics  

On this episode of the Quiet Light podcast, we speak with Dillon Carter about his path to launching a wholesale CRM, why he pivoted to a slighted different business model, and how his company helps their clients succeed. Dillon Carter is one of the founders of Aura, a wholesale CRM that helps you with repricing, managing wholesale suppliers, and growing your Amazon business. Tune in to hear our interesting discussion!   Topics:  How he floundered before finding his true passion. Launching a wholesale-based CRM software, before pivoting into repricing software. Explaining wholesale. Working with an antiquated business model. What happens when everyone is using Aura at the same time. How Aura works.   Resources:  Aura Dillon Carter's Website Quiet Light   Transcription: Joe: Hey folks, Joe Valley here from Quiet Light Brokerage and the Quiet Light Podcast sponsored by Quiet Light Brokerage, oddly enough. Everybody here is an entrepreneur. We've all built, bought, and sold our own online businesses. I sold my last e-commerce business in 2010. Things have changed a little bit since then. We've got to Dillon Carter on the podcast today. Dillon is one of those changes. He was; well, let's see, 2010, you were still in high school back then, weren't you? Dillon: I graduated in 2010, yeah. Joe: That makes me an old guy or you very good at what you do at such a young age. Probably just that, I'm going to call at Syed Balkhi right now. Syed I think might have just turned 30 years old and referred a client over to me so I was just chatting with him earlier today. Incredibly impressive at a young age and I'm looking at your LinkedIn profile, I'm looking at Vendrive, I'm looking at Aura Repricing and, man, you've got a lot going on in your life. Can you help people that are listening, who you are and what you do and summarize or give more detail to that summary that I just gave? Dillon: Sure. So I started out graduating high school not knowing what in the world I wanted to do, like most entrepreneurs. So, I kind of floundered for about four to five years, just testing a bunch of different things. I found myself being a personal trainer, working ridiculous hours and realizing I did not like a service based business because that's kind of difficult to scale. I realized okay, physical products is something that could theoretically scale in my mind at that time so I started playing around with the Amazon FBA model. Like most people, you get started with retail or online arbitrage, right? Low capital requirement, you could kind of test the waters. I did that and eventually me and the GM of the gym I was training at did not see eye to eye so I decided, you know what, let's go ahead and put myself in a corner and make it work. And so, eventually I decided retail arbitrage, although was better than being able to scale my time so I could not scale in the way that I wanted the business to. So like most FBA sellers, I decided to either go the wholesale or the private label route. I chose wholesale. It made a little bit more sense to me; low capital requirement, I could start paying the bills immediately because it was certainly an issue that I was faced with. I went that route and really spent a handful of years just crafting what wholesale meant to me, how I approached it. At the same time, I decided to go back to school full time for college. So it was one of those lingering aspects of my life where I was like do I really want to be that statistic where you took a few semesters, you kind of dropped out, and never went back. I'm like, no, I'm tripling down on my life at this point, no holds barred, and so that's what I did. And then eventually I met my co-founder, James. We eventually launched www.Vendrive.com, which is wholesale-based CRM software and then pivoted actually funny enough into repricing software. And that's our primary focus at the moment. So I've kind of traversed this world in a few different ways. I launched a podcast or two here and there. I shared all the knowledge that I've gained along the way and the podcast and blog posts and our Facebook group I mean, really just somewhat built an audience just teaching everything for free and I learned a lot from that. It's been a long journey, so to speak, but I feel like I'm just getting started. Joe: That's the way to do it. You help, help, and help some more. Give it all for free and make some friends along the way. It's amazing what you do when you help others, how it comes back to help your own business. In fact, we had Steven Pope on our podcast. I think he's www.MyAmazonGuy.com and so did you and he connected the two of us together. Strangely enough, I told you at the beginning of this call or before we hit record, that I sent a message out to the team that we just don't have enough wholesale guys; men, women, people, individuals, entrepreneurs on the podcast, because we have not historically sold a ton of wholesale businesses. But it's a funny thing, I come from the private label world. I didn't sell on Amazon. When I sold my e-commerce business it really wasn't much focused on Amazon. I did after that, but it was always my own products, always private label and some people look down on wholesale. At this point in my career; not that I'm going to change what I do, but if I were, I might look at wholesale before I look at private label. I might look at an agency before I make a private label. I might do a lot of different things. I might even look at content. But why don't you, for the sake of those that are listening, that are not as versed in it as you are define what wholesale is versus private label and how it works? Dillon: Sure. Wholesale is a very antiquated business model and I don't say that in a negative tone. What I mean by that is you are buying low and you are selling higher. You're literally finding listings on Amazon that are already doing well and you are doing what we call reverse sourcing. So you're finding listings already doing well, finding those brands, those products, and then you are going to the brand to open a wholesale account to purchase in bulk like pallets and stuff like that. It's actually very straightforward. There's nothing crazy to it. The difference here because you made a good point that a lot of people don't view the wholesale business model as a sexy business model. That's not your quote but that's kind of what I hear and you hear it a lot. And I think the reason why you have not sold a whole lot of wholesale Amazon business models is because the multiples are not that great. So, when I went back to school, I actually went to be finance major and so my focus was actually M&A. So doing a lot of valuations, some discounted cash flows, kind of nerdy stuff. But when you look at it, those businesses are easy to replicate. There's not a lot that you're really protecting, right? There's not a lot that I can really build up and get a decent multiple on. And so, I think they're very great in the sense of I can get cash flow positive within 30 days if you kind of know what you're doing and you're being serious about it. Right. Whereas private label is going to take a little bit more time. That's an investment for the future. I view a wholesale business model as a cash flow business where private label is more something you're looking to expand the value of your equity over a long period of time and potentially exit and so, it depends on what you're optimizing for. Joe: There's definitely a difference between the two, because the private label businesses that are growing like crazy, those folks are not taking a whole lot of money out of the business. They're constantly putting it back into inventory to try to keep up. But you said you said sourcing by looking out in the marketplace; Amazon, if that's what we're talking about, to see what other people are selling and then sourcing the product from the brand owner. So, we're talking about brands that have multiple sellers on Amazon in this particular case and you are then going to compete against the other sellers on Amazon as well, correct? Dillon: That's correct. Absolutely. Joe: All right, that doesn't sound very attractive. How do you compete against the others? How do you do a better job on your listings and your ratings and reviews and your pricing and things of this nature? Dillon: This is where it becomes an antiquated business model, in my opinion. And again, not in a negative tone where it comes down to relationships. So, a lot of people are jumping into the Amazon space want that lifestyle business, right. What a lot of people kind of project as this is what it's like to sell on Amazon. The reality of it is it's a lot of phone calls. It's a lot of old school relationship building. It's understanding that… Joe: We all have to do that. Dillon: I know right. Joe: It's now like rocket science. Yeah, it sounds much simpler than trying to figure out the thickness of a corrugated box that you're going to import from China. Dillon: 100%. I've said for the past three or four years that wholesale is simple, not easy. It's simple enough. I mean, we can sketch the entire business model on a napkin, and I've done that. It's not easy because it's a lot more work. Now, that's not a bad thing, right? This is not sending a bunch of emails to manufacturers in China and playing that kind of game. This is actually jumping on the phone and having a real conversation with somebody. What's different about wholesale and why it's uncomfortable for a lot of people is that you are essentially doing a sales job; you are calling a brand to sell them on allowing you to give them your money. It's a bit backwards, right? But that's kind of what it is. And so a lot of people get stuck where they jump into these relationships and they're trying to get these accounts and they're like I keep getting denied. Why won't they take my money? I'm trying to give them money. And what a lot of people have to learn, first and foremost, is the value add that you are bringing to the table is not your money, it's the relationship. What else can you do for that brand? Because what you're not doing is necessarily just jumping on the listing and taking another slice of the pie. You're strategically looking to increase the sales volume here, right? You're looking at running PPC campaigns, you're looking at listing optimization, and you're looking at how can I help my supplier negate other sellers. I keep going below minimum advertised price so, mat price. You're looking at this as a very strategic business model if you're doing it correctly and I think a lot of people view it too simplistically. And again, it is simple, but when you approach it from an operation standpoint as too simple, I think you negate the requirements that enable you to be successful. Does that make sense? Joe: Yeah, they're looking at the wrong things. Dillon: 100%. Joe: They're not looking at the most important thing, which is the relationship. With wholesale accounts, with wholesale clients, you've had friends; I mean, you're in the circles, people that you work with. How many wholesale brand relationships do they have or have to have; sorry, I know this is an unanswerable question with accuracy, in order to really make a good living out of it? Dillon: Sure. If you want to replace a job, the way I source, and the criteria I look for purchasing inventory, which is not super complex by any stretch of the imagination, 10 to 12 SKUs is pretty solid. I think you can get to a point where you're actually replacing job income and at least paying the bills. The cool thing about; so you have the spectrum, right, where private label is going to have like a handful; like a small amount of SKUs, in my opinion. One to two, obviously, you're trying to grow that over time, but if you look at the average it's probably a little bit less. Then on the other end of that spectrum, you have like retail and online arbitrage where it's like thousands upon thousands of SKUs. Wholesale is kind of somewhere in the middle, but leaning more towards the private label route. So a handful of great relationships is enough. You don't need to have 30 plus relationships. I think that's where you get really, really big but you don't really need that. You could do a quarter million in revenue with six to seven SKUs if they're the right kind of SKUs because it is repeatable and scalable. Joe: And what are your margins on that? What's left over for you at the end of the day, if you're doing a quarter million in revenue? Because if it's a private label, that's kind of doing a quarter million in revenue, there's not a lot left over. I guess maybe upwards of 50,000 maybe. But they're taking that money and they're putting it right back in inventory so there's not a lot of cash flow in that situation. Dillon: Yeah, it can vary. I've seen people have some pretty high margins. I've seen people take really, really slim margins. I look for at least 30% in gross margin. Obviously, the business expenses that's kind of going to be situational. But if I could do 30% outside of the business expenses, that's pretty good in my opinion. I think it's scalable. Joe: This is after Amazon fees. Dillon: That's correct. Joe: Okay, that's pretty good. That's pretty solid, actually. What about exclusivity? At what point do you get to be exclusive? Because in my view, that's going to make the business more sellable and have value. So, you're not only building cash flow but you're also building equity. Obviously you got to do better than everybody else and be really important to that relationship. Is that it? Dillon: For the most part, yeah. What's funny is it is that relationship and it's understanding that it just takes time; like any great relationship, it just takes time. So a lot of sellers jump in and say, hey, I just got this account, how do I get exclusive? You wait. You do a great job, you become their biggest buyer, you work with them, you add more value than just your money, and then you start to have that conversation over time. I had a friend, she started her Amazon business, it was doing well, and she followed up every two weeks for a year just to get an account. And not just like, hey, how's everything going? These are in-depth emails of, hey, I noticed this on your listing here's what I would recommend you do and gave them all of that knowledge. And eventually they let you know that that's a lot of work, what would it take for you to do that for us? Give me the account and I want exclusive rights. They go, you know what, let's test it for two weeks and if it if it pans out, we'll absolutely give you the exclusive rights. And she's got it now. Joe: Excellent. Yeah, I know that's the trick. Just again, help them. It is a ton of work so give it all the way and then they realize I really do understand the value of having you do it for me. Let's talk about competing on Amazon for the buy box and what Aura Repricing does because it's so very different than what most people have heard on this podcast because most people are content owners, SaaS owners, private label brand owners. They're not wholesale. Dillon: Yeah, so roughly 82% of organic sales come via the buy box. So that buy box is just that where you go as a consumer and hit one click purchase. That's what we call the buy box. When you're competing with other sellers on the same listing, you're not trying to optimize your listing to beat the other listings. That goes out the door. Now, it's about value. In terms of your price it obviously comes down to your competitive advantage in terms of getting cost lower from your supplier hence relationships matter. It comes down to seller feedback a lot of the times. So what we're having to do is stay competitively priced 24/7. And by the way, these things are changing every few seconds. Private label, you're used to set the price and maybe every now and then we'll change it. Joe: Yeah. Dillon: No, 24/7 here and so some of our larger users that have a few hundred thousand SKUs that are actively repricing, we're doing tens of thousands of price changes per second just for them. So, what we're having to do is say you can't do it yourself, it doesn't scale so let's hand that over to a computer with an algorithm with a set of rules that can say, you know what, the price just changed let's react to that as quickly as possible. And if doing so, we increased the amount of time you're in the buy box, which increases the amount of sales you get. Joe: What happens if you've got three products in the buy box, they're all the same brand, and two out of the three are using Aura Repricing? Dillon: Yes, we get this question a lot; what if everybody's using Aura at the same time? At that point, it comes down to two major things. One, your strategy because you have some control over that. Some people are willing to be more aggressive than others. And then number two, what's really more important, in my opinion, is your cost. A lot of sellers make the assumption that we got the same costs. I know what I paid for so therefore, I theoretically know what you paid for it. That's not true. I could have lower cost because I have a better relationship or I have more capital to play with. So, I'm purchasing in larger quantities, in which case I'm getting quantity breaks on my cost, in which case I can be more aggressive in my price. So, it comes down to those major two things. Joe: Okay, what else can people that are a wholesaler do to improve their rankings, listings, and so on and so forth on Amazon? Dillon: Yeah, one of the things we've seen; forecasting with wholesale is very important, just like it is with private label. However, it's a little bit different. So, if I'm not mistaken, a lot of private label people are purchasing like three months' worth of inventory because you have a lead-time for manufacturing. For us, it's like every two to four weeks we're placing restock orders. So, we're trying to get dense from when the capital goes out of the business to when it comes back with profits as small as possible. Joe: So, it's two to four weeks if you just average to three I mean that's a quarter of the working capital that you need for a private label business. Dillon: 100%. So, we're looking at stuff like that. What's important there was a lot of forecasting won't factor in regional distribution. And what I mean by that is a lot of times you can take a SKU that you're selling on and you have repeat sales and let's say you're moving a hundred units per month like clockwork. You testing increasing that to 200 can actually have a larger distribution in terms of where your SKUs are in the country and now you're starting to get access to what's called a regional buy box and you actually start to see a little bit more sales from that. I didn't believe it at first and then I tested it with a few selling friends, and sure enough, they increased sales by just doing that. So you don't have just the one global buy box, although that's what we're able to focus on as developers. You also have a regional buy box. Joe: And Aura Repricing can have an impact on that? Dillon: That's correct. That comes basically down to where is your inventory today, like right now. Joe: And how do you control that again with Amazon? Dillon: Increased inventory. Joe: Just spend more money and have more inventory and then you're going to… Dillon: Yeah, it's a test for sure. Joe: And you can do that over time, obviously, if you have personal overhead. Dillon: Absolutely. Joe: Okay, tell me about Aura Repricing and when did you launch it? To me, honestly, the development of this must have been crazy. I mean, you did finance and M&A; is your business partner a coder or a developer? Dillon: Yeah, so me and my co-founder, James, met actually via Instagram. So, we were both wholesale sellers, separate of each other and we just started to meet up once a week via Skype back in the day and just, hey, what's going on? What's new? He was kind of helping me scale my business because his was already at seven. Mine was at six figures so he was helping me understand some cash flow stuff that I needed to learn. And eventually he was like, hey, by the way, I'm at UMass and I am an engineering student. I'm already starting to work on some side projects. Do you want to partner up? And that's when we started to launch Vendrive. So, Aura, the beta took roughly eight to nine months of him by himself, because I'm not an engineer. I'm not a coder. I can script some stuff and that's about it. Joe: Yeah. Dillon: So that was him pretty much working 80, 90 hour weeks for eight to nine months, just grinding it out and we got the beta up. We tested with 20 to 30 users just from day one just to get that feedback loop going. Launched my winter break between semesters in December of 2018 and then we launched that and I had 50 users paying and we just started a feedback loop and scaling from there. Joe: And you both finished college? Dillon: We did. Yeah, we both finished college at the same time and now we're actually; we were fully remote. I was in Florida, now we're in Boston and we have our first like large office which you can see back here. We have the walls painted and the whiteboard is up, and we're actually hiring three engineers in the next month or two. Joe: Very cool. That's a great success story, man. Dillon: Yeah, thanks. Joe: I know that you said he was in college and you were in college at same time but developing it in college; doing seven figures in revenue while in college is pretty impressive. So let's say he's doing a million, he's doing maybe 300,000 in cash flow, in profit, even if you divide by two while a student in college, that's pretty damn impressive. Dillon: It's not bad. Yeah, it's definitely not bad. That's the thing about wholesale is I tell people, it can be at whatever scale you want. I think it's difficult to really take a private label brand and just be like, oh, I just kind of want to make a little extra cash. When I started mine again, I went back to school, and I was like if this thing just pay my bills and allows me to focus on school full time and get through that and not take six years to get through, it's kind of a solid win. And to be honest, that's kind of where I got it and I was happy with that. And then once I graduated, it's like cool now, we can go full force. And really I did like two semesters before because Aura started to really scale and outpace itself, which was awesome. But yeah, I think it's cool thing. Joe: Let's get back to the repricing part, because if I'm the wholesale owner, how am I going to work with Aura and Aura Repricing to determine how low it goes? Is this simply a matter of math and numbers and what my relationship is; how does it work? Dillon: So you have two major ways of setting a min max. We always require a minimum and a maximum price. This is the range of which Aura is allowed to play within because we don't want to go too low and not too high and all that good stuff. You can manually set that. Some people have their own formulas, some people just take current buy box price and reduce that by 30%. What I typically recommend is the second option, which is an automated option. So, you can set that based on an ROI. We'll actually import your cost that you give us or you're using a tool like Inventory Lab to store that. So, we'll import those and you'll say a minimum I want 20% ROI. What we'll do is we'll factor in your cost and then the Amazon fees, obviously factoring in that 20% ROI and say, okay, here's your calculated min price. We'll automatically set that for all your SKUs. So we create different strategies and those strategies can be assigned to a group of SKUs, one SKU, your entire account; it's really up to you. And then however you want to set those min max prices, you can definitely do that. Joe: That's pretty impressive. Dillon: Yeah. Joe: When it comes to wholesale, again, I'm a little ignorant on it, because it's probably a well-known brand; I would assume or a well enough known brand are people searching for the brand name and therefore there's not as much sponsored ads or are people doing sponsored advertising as well? Dillon: This is what's interesting, I know ads are very prominent and expensive for private label. What's interesting is when I started testing paid ads on wholesale, they were actually very cheap. And for whatever reason, the brands themselves do not seem to be doing that on Amazon. They don't. They just let the sales happen and they don't progress with it, period. The opportunity is that it's less competitive because from my personal experience, what I've done is I've created ads targeting the brand name and the product name and not the type of product. So the proverbial garlic fresh, right. Joe:  [Inaudible 00:22:36.5]. Dillon: Yeah, but we're going to do as an example, Nike, blah, blah, blah. When you're doing that they're super cheap and very scalable. I had a product that retailed for $329.95, it was costing me an additional $5 per sale via paid ads, and they're already doing 30 to 40 units per month organically. But that netted me $55 net profit so minus the $5 we're still doing 50 bucks. So I'm able to increase my volume. I'm trading five bucks for 50 bucks at this point. Joe: Sure. Dillon:  [inaudible 00:23:11.3] oh, that's expensive, five bucks. I'm like, not really when you do the math on it. Joe: Absolutely, you're paying five bucks and you're getting 50 bucks back. That's a good return. Dillon: Yeah, I'm not even very good at it. That's the important part. Joe: Are you doing any video ads; do you have the options to do whatever you want or can you not do video ads for wholesale? Dillon: I've yet to see any restrictions on that. I haven't done the video ads. There's this weird dichotomy where there's some things you should be willing to do for your brands and then there are some things that are just going to cost too much. It's very ROI driven. So, some brands are going to do that themselves and that's going to help you organically. Some sellers, if you have the right exclusive agreement, it can make sense. It just comes down to the math where it really will... Joe: We just had Judson Morgan on from www.Butter.la and he talked everybody through how to do videos from your iPhone or a Pixel, and it's not a lot of dough. An unboxing, if you will. You're making it natural and normal and he talked about the lighting and all that stuff. That's what I'm talking about. He talked about the bump in conversion rate with videos, either video ads or videos in your listings. I know that with private label, they get six or seven; maybe six to eight images that they're allowed to have and one of them can be video. Normally it's pushed to the very end. Do you do that with wholesale as well, the video, the unboxing, and things of that nature? Dillon: You do to a certain degree. So, part of the value add to the brand, again, is not just your capital. It's looking at where the listing itself can be optimized. A lot of sellers are hesitant to do that stuff because all that work is not just coming back to you. It's coming back to all the other sellers. And so that's where it gets kind of interesting, where there's some growth hacks, so to speak, that are only going to come back to you as the seller. So you're not really increasing competition's volume as well. I'm of the opinion if it raises all boats, I'm still probably willing to do it because I'm still getting a positive ROI on that it just depends on the person. So, I'm a huge fan of a growth strategy that I kind of created actually from Amazon affiliate sites. So, I was looking at different brokers. I'm just looking at what's for sale in the Amazon space. I'd like to keep a look at multiples and what's being sold. I was like, you know what, these Amazon affiliate sites are genius. They're there to make money and move inventory because that's when they get paid. So then I said, well, what happens when I start to reach out to these site owners and say, you know what, I sell a grill thermometer, you have a bestbarbecue.com Amazon affiliate site, what happens when I get you to replace your $200 grill thermometer with my $329 one, does that actually increase sales? And if we can structure the URL correctly, all of the sales are coming straight to me, not just anybody who happens to be in the buy box at the moment. It turns out you can. So, there's some more strategy there in terms of growth but that's where you have to really think through the relationship you have. If it's a very short term seasonal relationship, I may not be willing to go to that extent because it is a lot of work. However, if it's a brand that I want to work with for a long period of time, that's different. And I've always told people to approach it that way. If I don't in my mind think that I can work with a brand for the next 12 plus months, I really don't see the point in it. I'm not opportunistic in the way I approach wholesale. Joe: You're blowing my mind that you're 28 years old, I got to tell you that. Dillon: I appreciate it. Thank you. Joe: All right. So, Aura Repricing, anybody that does any wholesale got to go to Aura Repricing. Check it out and see what Aura repricing could do for them. Let's talk also about the two podcasts; I think you've got two podcasts or is it one? Anything else you want people to know about you and things of that nature before we wrap it up here? Dillon: Sure. So, I kind of got sick of the $3,000 courses. I'm not anti-course by any stretch of the imagination. Joe: We just launched one for $3,000. Dillon: So, I decided I was going to share everything that I knew, which is I'm not an expert in my opinion, but I know some stuff and so I'm willing to share everything that I do know. So if you go to www.Vendrive.com/blog, I've pretty much written some crazy in-depth articles on wholesale in terms of overcoming objections with suppliers, the cash flow management of it; all the fun nitty-gritty stuff. And of course, Wholesale Made Easy, which is the podcast. I'm not running that active anymore. That was structured to be like an evergreen podcast where it's not short-term tactics. It's foundational stuff like we're talking about here that if you listen to it a year from now, it's still going to apply. We do have the new podcast called Welcome to Growth, which is me and my co-host, Jonathan. It's way more casual and it's more just me and him going back and forth every Thursday on different topics. Joe: That's where I heard your first. I'm like I like these guys, they don't have any scripts at all. It's perfect for me. Dillon: We literally show up that morning. We might text the night before and say, hey, here's three topics that I would like to talk about. We'll pick one and just riff on it for about an hour. Joe: Yeah, it's awesome and you're a wealth of knowledge. We need to talk more about wholesale again someday. Thanks for coming on the podcast. I appreciate it. Dillon: Yeah, thanks for having me.

When a salesperson hears that line, it's a problem. And it's a marketer's job to fix that problem. Piece of cake? Hardly! On this episode of Brand Land, we invited Joe Staples, a go-to-market advisor for b2b companies with an amazing background as a CMO and SVP of marketing. Joe talked about how and why you need to conduct a brand audit.  What we discussed with Joe: What a “brand audit” typically consists of and what it accomplishes How often we should do brand audits and where to start Nontraditional approaches to conducting a brand audit Doing a brand audit on a limited budget You can find this interview, and many more like it, by subscribing to the Brand Land podcast on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify, or here.  

On today's episode, we speak with Justin Christianson, the Co-Founder and President of Conversion Fanatics. Conversion Fanatics helps businesses find additional revenue through conversion optimization strategies. Tune in to hear us discuss exactly what conversion optimization is and Justin's specific approach to helping companies increase their revenue.   Topics: Justin's work history. Explaining “conversion optimization”. Justin's favorite tools. Why directing traffic back to your homepage can make a huge difference. At what point the strategy goes beyond the customer's website. The importance of incremental adjustments. Keeping it simple. What is helping him through 2020.   Resources: Conversion Fanatics Justin's Social Media Quiet Light Podcast@quietlightbrokerage.com Transcription: Joe: Hey folks, Joe Valley here from Quiet Light Brokerage and the Quiet Light Podcast. As you know, we are online business brokers, a crew that has been there, done that. We help people sell their SaaS, content, FBA, e-commerce businesses and everybody's got a crazy amount of experience. Everybody's built, bought, and sold their own online business. Brad bootstrapped a company from 10 employees to 129 with three men ownership. He also acquired 26 companies or content sites in a six-year period and sold them to a private equity firm. Jason raised 10 million dollars in venture capital money and built a company. Amanda launched an affiliate business as a hobby, and it became the top four in affiliate in four months. Brian founded the world's first internet-based due diligence firm. There's a whole other crew; the rest of the team they've all got a ton of experience like that and now they're all advisors, brokers here in the Quiet Light team. I'm probably the least impressive of the crew. However, in the last eight years, I've sold close to 100 million in e-commerce transactions, probably at an average of about 1.1, 1.2 million dollars at a time. And we help first, that's the most important thing. We take that experience that we have and we help people around us, whether you are buyers that are listening or sellers. And we bring people on to the podcast like Justin Christianson so that he can help as well. Justin, from Conversion Fanatics and I'm stumbling on that a little bit. Justin, welcome to the Quiet Light Podcast. Justin: Hey, thanks for having me. Joe: One of the things that we don't do is read scripts as you can tell by stuttering through that but we also don't give fancy backgrounds on people. We love to hear it from them; what their story is and what their background is so could you introduce yourself to the audience here? Justin: Yeah, absolutely. So I have been in the digital marketing online world; I think this is year 19 for me. I started in my early 20s. I kind of moved up the ranks through affiliate marketing and lead generation and then became partners on a company and we exploded that company. I was actually the number one affiliate for it. We exploded it and grew it like… Joe: Just for the record, three ahead of Amanda. There's no question. She was four you were number one. Okay, I'm busting on Amanda right now, even though she doesn't listen to our own podcast. Continue. Justin: Yeah, we grew it like 500% in one year. We grew it almost 150 the next year. I sold it back to my business partners about; I guess it's been about 10 years, which is my time to leave. I started a private consultancy. I'm kind of teaching the implementation and optimization side of things. And then basically out of demand, I partnered up with my longtime friend Manish, who is my now business partner, and we founded what became Conversion Fanatics about six and a half years ago. Since then I've helped several hundred businesses. I think we calculated somewhere close to an additional hundred million in additional revenue for them through our conversion optimization strategies. Joe: Incredible. Justin: We just keep working every single day to be a little bit better and I'm fortunate enough to help some of the top companies in the world. Joe: And I know a few of them. I know a few of the folks that you worked with through Blue Ribbon Mastermind, our friend Ezra Firestone, and they speak very highly of you. And you actually helped Mark here at Quiet Light with his business Catholic Singles. Why don't you tell us though; I know the definition of it and I'm going to give a short story here afterwards but what is conversion optimization? Justin: Conversion optimization is really the understanding; well, I'm going to back up because conversion optimization, when you first say that, people often say, well, it's split testing. Well, split testing is just the vehicle that we use to prove or disprove whether we're right or not. But conversion optimization in and of itself is understanding the behaviors of the visitor; understanding their wants, needs, likes, dislikes, and where the key friction points are in an online journey and then doing what we can to answer the question why certain things are happening in that journey and then we split test to make sure we're right or not. So really, it just comes down to reading data and then executing on the ideas of why we think that data is telling us what it's telling us. Joe: And it's not just split testing, written content, or split testing images or videos or emails. It's a combination of all of the above, I would think. Justin: Yeah, we focus primarily on-site or on the ad side, but we're primarily; I would say 95% of our business is on-site, user experience, user interface kind of optimization. So, what happens on the website after they come from that ad and what can we do to make that experience better for those visitors and help those brands excel which will also lift up many other metrics in the business as well. Joe: So it's really perfect for the content, e-commerce owner, SaaS owner, and maybe the FBA owners that are trying to expand beyond Amazon and get some traction in their Shopify store or whatever store they might be using. Justin: Yeah. Joe: One of the things I have to say, I didn't understand what split testing was back in the day. I sold my e-commerce site through Quiet Light back in 2010. Mark, actually, Jason here was my broker at the time. I knew everything. I understood exactly what my customer wanted more than they did and kept doing these campaigns and putting them out there and putting out there, putting it out there. Finally, my web developer said, Joe, don't be an ass. Try split testing. I'm like, but this is right. And he's like, let's test it. Without a doubt every new campaign that I tested that I knew which one was going to win, I was dead wrong. And it would result in like 3% to 5% conversion rate differences and at a $200 or $300 transaction, that's a tremendous difference, isn't it? Justin: Yeah, I mean, we'll see; I'm looking at a test right now, it's like a 15% swing. Joe: Holy cow. Justin: I've got one running right now that's almost a triple-digit swing in terms of percentage gain. Joe: When you look at a client that let's say they're selling a physical product, are you looking first at their website to try to help speed up the website and improve it? What approach do you take with new clients? And I know they're all different, but give me an example of one. Justin: Well, really, I take the same approach with all of them, because my philosophy on that is at the end of the day, we're dealing with people. It doesn't matter what we're selling, they've all got wants, needs, buying habits, and decisions and pains and pleasure points and all of those things that go into that. So, I just try to understand and put myself in the shoes of that visitor. I look at the data and say okay, I'll look at their analytics and say, well, they're female aged 35 to 44, primarily they're shopping on mobile, they're falling off on this part of the website. And then I just put myself in the journey like what's stopping; what are the 10 things on this page that could potentially stop a visitor from going through the next step? What isn't clear? What can I add or remove to alleviate those friction points? And really what I'm trying to understand is what on that page holds the most weight in the eyes of the visitors? Because at the end of the day, you said you were proven wrong on a bunch of times. You were assuming something was going to happen. I've ran thousands of marketing split tests. I've strived for just pulling myself out of the equation in terms of my bias; my understanding, and I try to just really put myself in the head of the visitors. And once I do that, then it becomes much more apparent of what I need to test and where. And then as soon as I figure out what holds the most weight, I can then exploit that throughout the rest of the website. If they respond to social proof or they respond more to the benefits of the product or they need more trust aspect in the brand or they need to read more about the product or whatever, I try to figure that out. It could be copy-based. It could be image-based. It could be something as simple as moving a button off on a page. But I incrementally test those things to figure out what holds the most weight and once I figure that out then we just move throughout the site areas on the website and just keep going to try to continually evolve and scale and grow that business. Joe: Going back to the beginning, you said, you see when they drop off in their journey at a certain point. If they're looking at a product and reading an article and at some point, they drop off instead of actually placing an order, what tools or software do you utilize to see that path that the customer takes or potential customer takes to then drop off? It seems to me like that would be hard to access, that information. Justin: No, actually is not. It's one simple report in Google Analytics. Joe: I've been using Google Analytics for; how long have I been self-employed? More than a decade or more like 15 years, I don't know; something like that. Too long to the point where I still don't know how to do stuff like that. Is that training that Google provides you inside of Analytics and workshops or things of that nature or you've just learned it over the years? Justin: Well, it's literally a default report that I go to. It's under Conversions and you have to have e-commerce enabled. So it's under Conversions and then E-commerce and then Shopping Behavior. Literally, it's just a bar graph and it shows you the drop off points in that process and I just know how to read that and then you can dig in deeper and deeper and deeper from there. But generally, I'll get the understanding of it. So, I'll look at the landing page view and it's basically two reports. I'll look at the landing page behavioral report, so I'll see which landing page; their first visit interaction, what that conversion rate is. The Home Page is almost in the top three, almost always, even if you're driving traffic to a separate page or a landing page and the Home Page is generally underutilized by 90% of the businesses out there. Joe: What does it mean underutilized? Justin: They're not focusing on it. They don't care about it. They're focused on landing pages and product pages and checkout flow but yet I've seen campaigns double their return on ad spend by just turning some traffic to their Home Page versus a specific product page. But I look at the top-performing landing pages and then I look at that shopping behavior report and then I'll see okay, we've got this many people that are going on the Home Page, this many people have product views, this many people viewed the cart, this many people went to check out, this many people completed transactions. And usually, there's an outlier in that report. So, if it's on the product page like the product view one, I'll see okay they're in the product view and that means they're viewing a product page, but they're not adding to cart. And then I just go ask a few more questions of where you're driving the majority of your traffic, are you driving traffic directly to that product page or are you driving it to your home page or collections or whatever and then that'll give me a better understanding what those visitors are telling me. Joe: Okay, I got it. And at what point do you go beyond the website itself? Well, actually, let me back up, first and foremost. I talked to thousands of entrepreneurs over the years. Everybody listening to this podcast has a website. Please install Google Analytics because you're not going to be able to do any of this stuff that Justin's talking about. And just to dispel a myth that's out there, Justin, is Google stealing information from the people that are installing software on the website, or are they really just giving you the tools to help improve your business and make more money? Justin: I guess that's up for debate with who you ask but every single website… Joe: I don't want to debate that, by the way. Justin: No, I definitely don't want to go down that rabbit hole. Every website out there has it, I mean, has some form of Analytics involved. Joe: Yeah, I just sold a number of them where people have said they straight up don't use Google Analytics and they use some other unknown software or stat tracking data that doesn't do what Google does. So, please everybody install that. When it comes to AB split testing. So, you're figuring these things out. You get to the point where you decide you want to move a button-up or the order button up on a page. Do you just go ahead and do that based off of your experience or do you split test that always? Justin: Always split test it. I am literally proven wrong almost daily. Joe: Okay, it's not just me then. Justin: And we launch 50 plus new split tests a week for our clients. Joe: 50 split tests a week. Okay, always split test regardless. Here's a question for you. This might be tough to answer. When it comes to deciding the winner in a split test, my developer years ago gave me stats and he said, well, you've got to get to this number of total views and then statistically it's got to get here in order to make it a valid split test when you determine a winner. Is that still the case or just kind of do you wing it? Justin: Well, a little bit of both. I look at several different factors. I'll look at statistical confidence, which is one. You have to be statistically valid. You have to have a big enough sample size. You have to have a big enough separation. But I also look at the trend in the data. I look at is it flip-flopping back and forth or is it staying pretty steady as an improvement or a loss? How big of a loss is it out of the gate? And then I look kind of anything north of 25 conversions per variation then I'll start looking at the data. I always run it for at least a calendar week if it's showing promise or sometimes longer. Sometimes a test will run for a month. But there are also the times where you can run a test for six months and run millions of visitors through it and it'll never reach statistical confidence one way or another so you have to know when to cut it. Because if it's null or if it's flat or if it's bouncing back and forth, it's never going to reach confidence because there's not an algorithm on the planet that can factor that fluctuation. Joe: Confidence being the winner, one that's going to produce the end result that you want. Justin: Yes. Joe: What do you do at that point? Do you just flip a coin and decide whoever; if I'm the owner of the website and I like the images on one better than the other and if it's… Justin: So, if I don't know if it's a winner not, I'll generally call it a null result and I'll stick with the original. Unless it's not hurting anything and it's actually making it a better experience for the visitors. Meaning it's cleaning up a page or it's adding a function that might be beneficial that I can use to build upon. Or maybe if it's stripping down a page, then I can go in and then test adding some different types of elements back to the page and it just gives me some more online real estate to work with. So, it's kind of just sort of a guess at that point but I usually have an end goal in mind and I never want to push something that I'm not validating that it's an improvement. And I also don't focus just solely on conversion rate either. I focus on the bigger picture on engagement revenue per visitor, average order value, views on check out; all of those other secondary metrics just to make sure we're not; because you can improve conversion rate but make a lot less money or really dramatically decrease your revenue per visitor. So we just take a very holistic approach to the whole thing and I'm in it to win so I'm not going to push stuff just for the sake of pushing stuff. Joe: Yeah, so number one people have to have Google Analytics installed, figure out how to run the reports, and then always do split testing regardless. What are some of the; I mean you've been doing this for a long time, what are some of the other than I think you said which was people are not paying enough attention to their homepage? What other low hanging fruit is there that folks can do when they look at their own website where you see most common issues, where they can take a look on their own and try to fix things up? Justin: Well, there's a bunch of them, but generally visitors, we kind of live in this speed and this trap, I call it, of growth hacking and a lot of people just go in and say, oh, I think this looks better, let's go ahead and do it or let's change this or I saw so-and-so had it on their website can we do it on my website? And I've never seen that really go well. And also, I think that people think bigger is better so they feel like they need to completely redesign a page or add these big changes to make a big impact and the opposite is actually true. You need to incrementally adjust things to better understand those behaviors. The majority of people that I see are trying to cram too much stuff into a very small area. They're trying to over app their way to better conversions. I've seen stores with 70 plus applications and plugins and all of the stuff installed and they don't necessarily do the right things; adding more urgency and more timers and more pop-ups and things to your website isn't going to help you for a long term sustainable growth. But the glaring one that I see is people do not lead from a place of benefit to the visitors. They're screaming how awesome they are as a company instead of listening to the visitors and what their product is actually going to do for them. And I've said this in my entire career, it's kind of copywriting 101, it's you lead with benefits. So, benefit bullet statements. I go back to that all the time and then I use the features of the product to support those benefits. I've said this many, many times is I've got 16 gigabytes of RAM in my computer, which is great. It's a feature, but it's not a benefit. What does that do for me by having 16 gigabytes of RAM; a faster processing speed, faster video rendering, all of those things because nobody wants the feature. They just want what it's going to actually do for them. And a lot of companies just simply don't do it. They don't pay attention to it and I see it every single week on many, many occasions. Joe: I used to write ad copy for radio direct response stuff and it was 60 seconds and 18 of those 60 seconds were the call to action, which was the phone number; the 800 number at four or five times. We used to be able to get the features and benefits in 42 seconds; simple, clean, quick, clear. It's funny now we've got so much information and so many endless pages of websites that we feel like we do need to just jam more in and do more. Mike Jackness has been a regular guest on the show. He runs Ecom Crew and Ecom Crew Premium and he had a brand called Color It that we sold for him. And one of the things that Mike did very, very well is exactly what you're talking about when he reached out to customers regarding Color It. He had one of the biggest Klaviyo campaigns. He talked about it a lot on the show and that was giving them some benefit with every email that went out; helping them, teaching them, giving them some benefit, not hitting them up with a sales promotion every time. It's a help first mentality and that generally comes back to you. I think that's great. It's sometimes simple to do on a website, and I would think that sometimes it's a little more complex. Are you finding getting a little more complex with video for instance? We had Judson Morgan from Butter.la on talking about the increase in conversions from a static image to a video. Are you finding similar findings or do you split test those types of things as well? Justin: Yeah, we always split test it. I've seen the video go 50% improvement to a 50% decrease and everywhere in between. It just depends on the brand. I've got an auto detailing client that has all the gear for auto detailing and they're very video-focused so moving a video into the main spot on a product page in the carousel would prove really effective for them whereas other companies showcasing a shirt, for example, isn't necessarily as effective as a product that needs to be demonstrated so it's really a case by case basis. And if there's a video available, we'll try to leverage it as much as possible but I have literally seen swings go both ways. Joe: Have you been in a situation where you have been testing video and you're testing that less is more where it's maybe user-generated content versus high-end production and one outperforms the other consistently; probably not consistently, yeah? Justin: Not consistently. But I would say I do this with imagery too, is I kind of lean towards more of the user-generated real type side of things; the shaky camera, the ums and ahs because I think more people are relatable to that or they can relate to that a little bit easier. I've got a client right now that's got a product and all of their imagery looks like straight out of an Instagram model's website. Even their user-generated content is Instagram filtered and perfect and looks like they used a super high-end camera and I'm like, do you have anything real? Like some real, hey, this is awesome look at this. He's like, yeah, I've got all sorts of that. I'm like, well, let's test that because your visitors are literally saying we don't know if these are actually as good; the pictures are great, but we don't know if they're actually as good so we've got to build that trust that the product is great. And this is a site that sells 2,000 plus orders a day so they're doing volume, but their visitors are still screaming we don't know if we can trust this even though they've got 500,000 plus customers. So we're just trying to leverage that as much as we possibly can to showcase in different ways like, hey, this is real and it's not… Joe: Have you had the chance to split test that yet? Justin: We're in the process of gathering all the images. I'm literally going through this this week. Joe: And is that your role within the company or do you have other folks that help you? Justin: Well, I've got a team. Joe: Well getting down to the point where you're picking out those images, or do you let the company owner or your client pick out the images that you'd be choosing? Justin: A little of both, we're very collaborative. But I've got a big team of smart people; designers and developers and strategists and analysts and all of that stuff. But I'm very much involved and my business partner and I are in the overarching strategy. Some clients I'm more in the weeds with than others. This one I just happened to be going back and forth with because he was trying to push for one thing and I'm like, well, your visitors aren't saying they want that so I kind of had to interject and say, here's what we're seeing from that standpoint. Joe: And they're literally saying and you're; and I'm saying you and I know it's your team, but I'm saying it's so that the audience can go and do this themselves as well. You are literally going on to the reviews, to the Instagram comments and things of that nature, and seeing what the visitors are actually saying, or are these e-mails into the company that tips you? Justin: No, survey. This one is actually like just a type form survey saying here's the; we took the top three questions, like what questions do you have that we didn't answer? I do this with exit polling a lot too so almost all of our clients we've set up an exit poll. So catch the people that are leaving and just ask them what problem did we solve for you today or what question weren't we able to answer and give them that open-ended kind of outlet to tell us where we're falling short. And you'll see a trend very quickly of what that data is telling you. In this case… Joe: So somebody when somebody leaves the site without placing an order, if that's the objective, you've got the ability to have them fill out an exit poll form? Justin: Essentially, yes, just a one question kind of survey. Joe: Okay, that's fascinating. Imagine that, asking them why they didn't order and having them tell you and having you be able to fix that problem. What you're doing is not actually that complicated it's just hard work. Justin: Right. Joe: I guess you got to take the time in the detail to get to it, and it's funny, I find a lot of things in this e-commerce or online world that we live in not very complicated. It's common sense. Sometimes we just have to be told what we already know. Justin: Yeah, common sense is kind of lacking in a lot of cases these days it seems like. I mean, even in my career of almost 20 years, nothing's changed. Just the mediums have changed. So that's really it. Joe: True. Justin: People come to me and they're like, oh, hey, what's your framework and what fancy tools are you using and I'm like, I'm simple. I want to go down to the bare bones minimum possible to get the job done. I don't want to over-automate and over-analyze. I just want the visitors to tell me what it is and optimization in that. I mean, there's a science to it, obviously, but an understanding and an experience definitely helps but it isn't rocket science. I mean it's ask the right questions and my question just happens to be why. Why are they clicking on the button or why are they leaving that page or why are they watching the video or aren't they watching the video, why are they dropping off at that point in the video? It's just questioning everything and then looking for all the ways we can possibly test to improve that. Joe: It's a lot of whys in there and none of that becauses come from the founder of the company or the CMO or something like that. They come from the customer, which is smart. It's the mistake I made years ago when I thought I knew everything. I was dead wrong. It sounds like you are too most of the time when you're doing your split testing all week. So, listen to the customer, obviously, but you've got to get that information to the customer and ask them. Justin: Yeah, and I think as business owners, and it's why I hire coaches. It's why I hire people to get an outside, unbiased perspective because I see so many business owners often look at their business or even marketing executives for large, large corporations, they're in there every single day looking at the data, looking at the website, looking at the marketing message that they just get numb to it and blind to it. And sometimes the smallest little change and the smallest interaction or they're overlooking just some small lever they need to pull that's going to dramatically improve their marketing performance. And I fortunately and unfortunately see it all the time. Joe: I'm going to go on a short tangent here. You said you hire coaches. You've been self-employed for two decades in the online space. What kind of coach would somebody with your experience be utilized? What kind of coaches do you hire for yourself? Justin: So I started out; I'm a direct response marketer. I'm a B2C guy that for some reason started an agency. I have no idea how to run an agency. I never did when we started it so I've hired several; I've hired sales coaches, I've hired other business development coaches, I've hired lead generation coaches, I'm in a Mastermind right now for agency owners; all very top level just because there's a lot of stuff that I don't know from the inner workings of the process. I'm a forever student and I think I can learn how to do something and I live kind of by the motto that every day I need to be a little bit better than I was yesterday even if it's just one small incremental improvement. I'm a split test guy so I have to strive for that improvement all the time. And sometimes I have the wrong questions or I have the questions or I'm not asking the right questions on my own business and it's even helped me even through all of the stuff that's going on this year. There was a time where we had a lot of unknowns, even back in March and if we don't change this stuff we're going to be in freak out mode if we don't fix some stuff. So, I needed to lean on my coach and my crew and my circle of influence on the agency side to kind of help us navigate. Joe: Yeah, I think that's fantastic. And I ask the question because you obviously have done some things right over the last couple of decades and some of the audience members might just be leaving the corporate world and coming into this online world that we live in and one on one coaching is the equivalent of one on one therapy for people that need help but it's for you and your business. In many ways, it improves you as an individual as well as a business person and as an individual. We have David Wood on the podcast; he's a business coach, just talking about the benefits of asking certain types of questions and trying to make incremental growth as you've talked about here. And then the Mastermind groups like Blue Ribbon Mastermind, like Ecom Crew premium, like eCommerceFuel, like Rhodium Weekend, those are all group therapy, but it's group enhancement. Everybody shares their secrets with the other members of the team so everybody can grow and learn together. So I think it's brilliant, very, very smart things to do. Justin: There is a lot of; if you get in a room with people that are on that level or even above you and I don't always join into our monthly or biweekly phone calls on our Mastermind and all of the stuff and I don't always need help. I don't always have something to share but when I do, they're there. And I think there's a lot to be said about that, too. It's just having kind of that fallback and kind of a sounding board when you do have an idea or you're falling short in certain areas. Joe: I couldn't agree more. Justin, I appreciate it. Where do people go to learn about your business Conversion Fanatics; is it just simply www.ConversionFanatics.com? Justin: Yeah, www.ConversionFanatics.com. You can find all information about us. I've got a best-selling book that's also available on Amazon. If you go over there, find it. It has the same name, Conversion Fanatic. Joe: Awesome. Justin: And I'm all over social media so you can find me at www.onespotsocial.com/JustinChristianson and you can find links there; basically everything. Joe: Fantastic. Justin, I appreciate your time. Thanks for being on the podcast. Justin: Thanks for having me.

On this episode of our podcast, we speak with Kellianne Fedio, an Amazon consultant. She discusses selling her previous business for seven figures and the creation of her new podcast. Her journey is long and interesting, with a lot of twists and turns. Here, she shares her entire story and offers great advice to those who want to follow in her footsteps. Tune in to hear Kellianne's great insights. Topics: When she stumbled on Ecommerce, she realized it was a good fit. How Amazon has changed since she started. Why outside funding sources are necessary. The importance of Mastermind groups. Living through rocky periods. Explaining rebates. Kellianne's consulting methods.   Resources: Kellianne on LinkedIn Kellianne on Facebook Digital Shelf Strategy Quiet Light Podcast@quietlightbrokerage.com   Transcription: Mark: Joe, we know that first-hand experiences of people that have gone through the process of building a business, preparing it for sale, going through that exit, that tends to be some of the greatest stories and stories where we can get a lot of lessons back to us that we can apply and learn how to optimize our own businesses for a better exit. I know you had Kellianne on recently and she shared her story of building her business and going through that exit and now her current pivot where she's starting up a podcast on this very topic. Joe: Yeah, Kellianne is good friends with another good friend of ours, Paul Miller, who owns Cozy Phones and Kellianne had a seven-figure exit. Technically, I guess it would be early this year that she closed on the transaction; early 2020. And she's learned a lot through that process and now she's sharing that experience and the knowledge and the networking and the story of building a business on Amazon; all the resources and connections that you need to make in order to build it well and build it right with an eventual exit in mind. So she shares her entire story and gives real tips and advice from her own direct experience during the interview. Joe: Hey, folks, Joe Valley here from Quiet Light Brokerage and the Quiet Light Podcast, Today I've got Kellianne Fedio and I had to say that out loud several times to make sure I pronounced it right. Kelly is a former attorney, Amazon seller, seven-figure exit that she's had recently. And she's going to be moving into helping people build their Amazon businesses for a stronger exit down the road. Kelly, welcome to the Quiet Light Podcast. Kelly: Thank you so much for having me, Joe. I'm such a big fan of everything you guys are doing over at Quiet Light and have done for the past several years so it's a real honor to be here. Joe: I appreciate that. I did more of an intro just now than I normally do, but I didn't read from the script. But why don't you go ahead and tell us who you are and your story and where you came from and what you've done here? Kelly: Sure. So I started out as an attorney in a former life, and after having kids, getting married, I became very unhappy in that profession. That was just a lot of long hours, not enough pay at least for what I was doing, and I really wanted to be there for my kids. So I became a stay at home mom for a while and loved every minute of it. And then when my kids started elementary school, I was like, okay, what's my next chapter here? And I never would have guessed it would have been entrepreneurship. I was very traditional type-A personality in high school. I'm going to get all A's. I'm going to go to college. I'm going to go to law school. I'm going to be an attorney. And that was like my plan for the rest of my life. And so fast forward to several years later, after having practiced law for 10 years and now having kids and a husband and a wonderful family life, I was like what am I passionate about? What can I put out there into the world that not only is going to hopefully bring in income to our family but also that I could be excited about doing? And so I just knew it had to have something to do with online; being online and creating value online. And so, like a lot of other entrepreneurs getting involved in the online space, I tried a lot of different things, made tons of mistakes, had tons of failures, learned a lot, loved every minute of that experience, but sooner or later stumbled upon e-commerce and pretty quickly realized this is something that I really could see myself doing for the foreseeable future. And so around that time, Amazing Selling Machine had become pretty prominent in terms of the Amazon education space. So I was in ASM3 and of course… Joe: I got to ask, what number were you? The early ones were the good years. They're coming back around. They're doing good stuff again. I talked to them last week. Kelly: They are. They're always innovating, always doing new stuff so, I mean I always bring that out when I'm on podcasts or other interviews, because if it wasn't for that course my life would be a lot different. So I met an amazing group of entrepreneurs with the affiliate group that I joined. It was Ryan Moran and his tribe. I met a lot of amazing people. I'm still friends with them to this day, and really just dug in and had some pretty early success early on. So it was really, really exciting and I knew that this was what I was going to be focusing on, probably forever. Joe: How did you choose your first product? Kelly: I chose something that I thought I could build a brand around. So I'm very passionate about talking to other Amazon sellers about when they're thinking about how to start their business. You know, people always ask, well, how do you pick a product? First and foremost, you have to build a brand these days. When I started, you could throw up kind of anything and just with a little luck and… Joe: How many years ago was it that you started? Kelly: 2014. Joe: Okay. Kelly: Yeah, so it was a while ago. Things have drastically changed, right, in the Amazon space? Joe: A little bit, yeah. Kelly: Yeah, a little bit. And so even back then; and I had no branding experience or consumer product experience, but I knew that this first product, I could build a brand around it and actually wasn't a product that had a huge demand at the time, but it was a product that I knew that I would love and that I knew that other active women would love. So that's really what I built the brand around and just continued to develop products; not all winners, lots of failures… Joe: Additional products all within that brand, yes? Kelly: Exactly, that would serve a core audience and solve a problem or need. Joe: How many products did you launch initially, was it just one? Kelly: It was just one. Joe: And it was a success out of the gate? Kelly: Not right out of the gate. So I launched it in August but by that Q4, I had reached seven figures on top-line revenue so it was really, really exciting. Joe: Cool, very exciting. Kelly: Just with one product, one variation. Joe: And probably not working as many hours as you did as an attorney. Kelly: No, I mean, I definitely was working a lot because I was still in learning mode. I mean, the thing about Amazon and e-commerce is you're not only learning the platform itself, but you're learning how to source overseas, perhaps, and manufacturing and product design and advertising and marketing. So there's a lot of different skill sets you have to learn. So I definitely was really, really passionate about learning as much as I could. Joe: When you learn all of those things, do you think it's things you need to learn and then do yourself or do you think that there are certain experts that you can outsource certain things to like photography or listing creation or whatever it might be; importing from China, dealing with different things? Are there certain aspects to an Amazon business you feel that should be outsourced and things that you should do in-house as the entrepreneur that started the business? Kelly: Oh, absolutely. In the beginning, I think you should do everything with the exception of maybe photography. Super specific skill sets, like graphic design or photography certainly, you can outsource that early on. But everything else I would say you have to learn first and foremost yourself before you can effectively outsource it. And there are I mean, so many great service providers now that have obviously spawned in this Amazon industry not only software services but also other types of services, whether it's Amazon brand management or writing listings, things like that. So now it's all out there, but you should really learn the components and the strategy behind it first before outsourcing. Joe: How much money did you start with Kellianne? Kelly: I started with about $5,000. Joe: Okay, and did you have to borrow more to keep up with inventory? Because that's the story that I consistently hear. I started out with X and then when you dig deeper the business didn't fund the growth. Did yours fund the growth or did you have to go and borrow more? Kelly: In the beginning, it did. But yes, even if you reinvest all of your profits, there's no way you can grow initially without getting capital from outside sources. So about a year into it, I was able to get Amazon Lending so that was great. But before that, it was a lot of credit cards. And then early on, I actually was able to get a line of credit after the first year. But until then, it was really credit cards. And I wouldn't recommend people doing that but sometimes it's just a necessary evil to get where you need to go. Joe: Yeah, I was playing golf with a mentor years ago before I grab my head and one of the things he said to me was get a line of credit set up now; before you need it, get that line of credit set up because you never know when you're going to need it. And I see so many people that are struggling to keep up with purchasing more and more inventory for growth or developers if it's a SaaS business because they don't have the ability to stroke a check when it's necessary. They go hunting for that line of credit when they need it as opposed to getting it set up beforehand so I think it's great to get it set up beforehand. So you hit six figures you said by the end of Q4 your first year… Kelly: Seven figures, I was very lucky. Yeah. Joe: And did a million in revenue in 2004. Kelly: Mm-hmm. Joe: Don't you like how I could do the seven-figure translation to a million? That was really; okay, all right. Anyway was it all with one SKU or did you add additional SKUs as well? Kelly: By that next quarter of 2015 then I started adding more SKUs, but it was really just on one product. And so that talk about funding the inventory for that, I got to say it was just a lot of luck. I was able to forge a really strong relationship with my supplier very early on in China without ever having met him. And he gave me terms once he saw that this thing; and that normally doesn't happen that early on in the relationship. Joe: No. Yeah, I know. Kelly: He was able to give me terms. So that's another way that I was able to fund that growth so quickly that that first year. Joe: Yeah, if you can get to China, folks, we did a podcast with Athena Severi from China Magic and before that with Dan from Titan Network all about negotiating terms with your Chinese manufacturers, and it does exactly what Kellianne did, which was it gives you more cash flow for buying more inventory. And if you can get terms, it's a lot better than an Amazon Loan because the interest rate is very different. It's nonexistent in most cases. During that initial journey Kellianne if we summarize things so far, you took ASM3, you invested $5,000, you did a million dollars in revenue. Sounds easy, but I'm sure it wasn't, right? Kelly: It was and I know it sounds easy and like I said, there was a lot of luck in there too. I'm not going to like take credit that it was just all my superpower genius. But I did have tremendous tenacity because between the time that I launched the product in August, it was like pushing a boulder uphill; August, September, October, November. It wasn't really till November that it really took off. And I had the foresight and maybe just stupidity to order a bunch of inventory in anticipation of Q4 and early on recognize that I could market this product as a gift in addition to just the primary keywords that were related to the product. So that was something that I did very early on and that allowed me to scale too because I was able to secure top positioning for keywords such as gifts for women, top Christmas gifts for women, things like that, very early on. So all of that came from me putting in the hard work of learning and masterminding, I can't underestimate the power of masterminding as well. I found a small group of; there were all guys, actually, I was the only girl. They are all amazed… Joe: So you were in charge essentially, right? Kelly: Yeah, sort of but we just were kindred spirits and we became very close and we would meet once a week and we were all building Amazon businesses, others went on to build SaaS businesses and all other types of businesses. They're all super successful entrepreneurs and that really made a huge difference in making me feel like I could really do this because I had other people in my corner so that was all. Joe: There's nothing more valuable than that and it didn't cost you anything. It sounds like there are groups that can get together just to help share information or you can join more formal groups like eCommerceFuel or EcomCrew Premium things of that nature. Kelly: Exactly. Joe: I think it's incredible. So let's talk money; ASM3, launched million dollars in revenue within the first year, you must be rolling in cash flow, yes? Kelly: No, absolutely not. Joe: I knew the answer to that. Kelly: I wish. Joe: How much did you; other than distributions just to make you feel good to pay taxes that were going to be due, did you put yourself on payroll or take any money out of the business for you and your family? Kelly: No, not the first couple of years I did not. And I was again, lucky that I had a husband who had a full-time career and that's the money that we relied on to support our family. So starting this business, that wasn't the mindset that we were going to do this to support our family. This was hopefully something that we could build into something bigger and perhaps fuel some bigger investing goals and things like that. Joe: So you would not recommend someone listening quit their job and they've got $10,000 and they're going to do $5,000 to start the Amazon business and live off the rest until revenues start rolling; bad idea, right, because they're going to run out of money very fast? Kelly: Absolutely, I would never recommend somebody quit their day job. You really need to start any business, in my opinion, as a side hustle. I mean, even my husband and I to this day, like right now, I'm really getting into real estate investing and he's getting into day trading and we're going to wait until we become masters of that and really start making significant sums of money before he would ever consider quitting his job. Joe: Yeah, good advice. All right, so 2016 rolls around how do things go? Did you have any rocky periods where you thought this isn't for me or did revenue just continue to climb? Kelly: Oh, no. There was a lot of rocky periods. So back then there was no brand registry, there was no; just counterfeiters galore and the initial product that I had launched all of a sudden came on everybody's radar. I can't remember if by then there were tools such as Jungle Scout or things like that to look at what sales revenue these products were doing. But it definitely; people caught on and started copying my exact listings, the exact product. I mean, certainly, I didn't have any proprietary rights. The product was a private label product, but definitely, competition grew and revenue; I was able to maintain revenue because I diversified my keyword traffic and wasn't going with what everybody else is going for. Slowly but surely the market grew. But my market share also grew with it and then declined at some point because so many competitors came in. Joe: Did your margins tighten; did you have to drop the price too? Kelly: Yes, I did. I remember actually, so Q4 of my first year of selling, I think I sold that particular product at a price point of I think as high as $35. And now if you were to look at this product on Amazon it ranges between $10 and maybe $17 tops. Joe: Wow. Kelly: Yeah, and that happens. I mean you don't get to; that product was still a winning product by the time I sold my business but I knew that this couldn't sustain me forever. I needed to obviously continue rolling out products, right? Joe: And that's how you combatted it; you continued to roll out new SKUs? Kelly: Yes, absolutely. Joe: How did you determine what to do next in terms of SKU expansion? Kelly: I did make a lot of mistakes there. I launched a lot of products that failed. Joe: How many? Just out of curiosity. Kelly: How many failures? Joe: Yeah, after the initial launch out of the next 10, how many were successes, and how many were failures? Kelly: I would say I was probably at a 50:50 rate. Joe: That's good. Kelly: I would have liked it to be higher. And I think nowadays, with all of the tools that are available and with the mindset that you have to cut losers quickly; that was my biggest downfall, is it was so hard for me to give up on a product that I spent not only time but a lot of money on developing and then to just let it go. That was really hard for me. I was emotionally tied and that's one area that if I had cut those losers quicker, I would have freed up my cash flow and been able to expand and scale a lot quicker and more efficiently. Joe: Let's go into that a little bit further. Let's define a loser in terms of products. Is it one that is negative profit-wise or is it at 5% profit where the others are at 43% profit? How do you determine what a loser is and then what action do you take with it? Kelly: Well, it also depends on the time period. So when you're launching a product; everybody has their own time frame, but I kind of give it a three-month cycle of pushing it out, launching, ranking it, advertising, heavy on advertising so you're usually in the red. At least I was okay with being in the red at that point, but then it should start to pick up after that if it's going to be a winning product. If you've done everything right with your launch, and ranking strategy, it should just start to kind of take off on its own, really. Joe: A three month period is that what you're okay? Kelly: Yeah, about three months. Joe: Okay. Kelly: At least for me back then. I would say now it's probably a longer time window. I would say probably about six months. But there becomes this like intuitive sense of you're still continuously pushing a boulder uphill with your nose rather than it's starting to gain some traction and go downhill. And so you've got to know when is that point to cut it off and it definitely took me a lot of failed products and a lot of wasted money and time to finally realize. Even up until when I sold my business; I mean, the buyer who bought my business, there were quite a few SKUs that he was just like I don't want to continue with these because these are just not making enough profit. They were profitable but not making enough profit. So everybody has their own standards. Joe: So yeah, there's SKU balance that offsets risk. If you've got one SKU doing 60% or 70% of your revenue, some buyers will perceive it as more risk other buyers will perceive it as less work, and they like that. Kelly: Yeah. Joe: How do you; I mean, if you're at a six month period now in your assessment of really it takes that long to push that boulder uphill until it's profitable and then you determine whether or not you get to keep that SKU that you've worked so hard on or if it's not profitable enough and you move on. How often are you launching SKUs? It sounds like you're probably needing to launch them every couple of months just to keep up and stay ahead of the game. Is that the case or is that something you recommend? Kelly: Yeah, it definitely depends on your product mix and what your revenue goals are and what capital you have to work with and your cash flow; all those things. But ideally, if you could be launching a new product I would say at least every quarter but there are sellers out there that are launching products every week or every two weeks. It just depends. I did not have nor did I want to have some big, huge behemoth of a business where I had a million employees and I was doing all the product design in the beginning; myself, along with my manufacturers, maybe hiring some outside design people to create changes to existing products to make them better. That was always kind of my MO. And really, you have to have a certain amount of capital that is allocated to new product development and know where that line is because then you don't want to let your other product suffer either and that's what's bringing cash in and keeping the lights on, right? So there's a fine balance there and I really do think that comes down to cash flow management; knowing your cash flow. Joe: And that's something so many people fail at. I probably looked at 8,000 profit and loss statements over the last eight, almost nine years now, and I'll be honest with you, probably 70% of them are inaccurate; wrong cash accounting, not using Quick Books or Xero, but the audience knows that. I know that's my thorn in my side. Let's talk about favorite tools. I mean, you obviously have figured out the Amazon game. You must have used some tools along the way. Have there been any that have stood out that you kind of you think must have? I mean, you mentioned Jungle Scout a few minutes ago. What tools do you use in your Amazon business or recommend as you work with new Amazon owners now to help them fine-tune their business and get it ready to sell? Kelly: Well, I wouldn't say I would at this point in time recommend a specific tool because there's a lot of competitors in the Amazon SaaS space, right? But you want a good tool for first and foremost, keyword research and keyword tracking. So, for example, Helium10 is a great one for that. But there are many others out there that are very good. So I'm not going to say that Helium10 is the best. They are one of the best and I like that tool a lot. And then you're going to want to have a tool for launching and ranking. These days that's all about rebates and so I recommend Six Leaf. My good friend Joe Junfola created Six Leaf and he's got a very new and exciting rebate option in there now and I'm helping my friend Paul Miller with his business in using that. Joe: Really? He's my friend, too. Kelly: What's that? Yes, your friend too; our good friend. Joe: Our friend. Kelly: Yeah, and so if you don't have outside traffic that you can send to your listings and have like a system for that, you definitely are going to need to do some I would say giveaways but these days that means rebates. And so there are other platforms that can do that but that's the one I recommend for that. And then Helium10 basically has all the other components that I would recommend, such as product research and keyword tracking. There are so many different tools out there and they've all kind of evolved over time and they all kind of overlap and what was most frustrating to me by the time that I sold my company is I had so many different tools. And even though they did a lot of the same functions, one did one better than the other and so I felt like I just had a lot of bloat in there and a lot of things that I could cut out. And so I wish somebody would just like focus on one thing and just do it right. Joe: Yeah, because if you wasted a thousand dollars a month, that's going to cost you an awful lot in the sale of your business. Kelly: Yeah. Joe: Can we talk about rebates for just a second? I want you to educate me and educate the audience because a rebate to me; from a novice standpoint and I don't sell on Amazon, I did once upon a time but it'd be a conflict for me now as I see it. Plus, I don't ever want to import from China. Kelly: I don't blame you. Joe: Yeah, I don't want to; I was at Helium10 back when it was a man he had Illuminati Mastermind and I was at the event. It was in Cancún and somebody was up on stage and she was literally talking about importing from China, talking literally about the thickness of the corrugated box that your products have to be in. And I swear to God I felt sick three times and I thought never will I import from China. Rebates, you're giving something away. They're getting a discount back or they're doing a review and they're getting a discount. Explain how it worked because it sounds like it's definitely against terms of services depending upon how it's used. Kelly: Now, I don't think it's against terms of services. I mean there's a lot of rebate services out there now. Joe: What is a rebate? Kelly: A rebate is the purchaser gets to purchase the products and then they get reimbursed the full amount usually to be most effective or it could be some percentage of that amount. So traditional retailers have been doing rebates for years. I mean, it's a very common thing in marketing. Joe: So there's no hey, we'll give you 100% refund for review it's just buy it and we're giving you your money back and that improves the algorithm rankings; organic rankings. Kelly: It's a keyword ranking strategy. I would not use it as a review strategy; absolutely not. Joe: Yeah, okay the review strategy definitely gets against terms of services. Okay, thank you. I needed to hear that. Kelly: I mean, I wouldn't say it's necessarily against terms of service if you're asking for a review after the fact. But it just can be on that blurred line that you could potentially; and I haven't heard of anybody getting taken down for this but if you were to rebate a customer and then after the fact ask for a review then Amazon could potentially look at that as gaming the system. So you just want to be really careful and I would just recommend that sellers don't ask reviews for customers that they've given rebates to. Joe: What about is it cheaper or should it be a dual strategy of sending traffic from outside; buying traffic on Facebook that would drive directly using a keyword directly to the Amazon page, is that going to have a similar effect as rebates, cost less, cost more, or would you recommend a dual strategy of both of those or have you not sent traffic from outside sources like Facebook? Kelly: Well, that's a great question, Joe, but the rebate is just kind of like the end result of what the customer is getting but the traffic and the quality of the traffic is the most important thing. So a lot of these rebate services that are out there, they're just for using the same audience that they've built on Facebook over and over again. And Amazon now is so sophisticated they can tell that all that traffic is coming from the same source that's just this incestuous pool. So you really want to be careful of the services that you use. And ultimately, the best way is always to build your own list, to have your own audience whether that's a mini chat list or an email list or if you're a master of Facebook Marketing and you know how to target and you know what kind of audiences are really going to go and actually buy your product and if you have enough profit margin built into your product to do Facebook advertising. That's a whole another thing in and of itself. But for ranking purposes, you need to send high-quality traffic and a lot of these ranking or rebate services you just have to be careful of where they're getting their traffic from. Joe: Okay, so far we've established you as an Amazon expert; one that's been there, done that. I had to ask a couple of questions; dumb questions, if you will, to get us to where we are right now. Let's talk about digital shelf strategy, your business, where you're going to actually help Amazon sellers. If somebody out there in the audience is thinking that they want to exit their business someday in the future, or if they're just struggling and they're barely able to keep up with inventory demands, not taking any money out of the business and they're pulling their hair out, how are you going to be able to help them? Kelly: Great question. I started digital self-strategy when I was still a seller because I've over the years, I love Amazon. I live, breathe, eat, sleep, Amazon. I still do. And I would get questions from people anywhere from one-off questions to people wanting me to help them with their businesses. And so I have been very, very generous I feel like with my time wanting to help people. But sometimes if it needs to be a little bit more work or more time spent with somebody then I set up this agency just so I could have a way to work with sellers ongoing. And so between that and then another new business that I started with, Paul Miller, Amazing Exits, the consulting piece of that is really helping sellers with being able to look at their businesses holistically and help them figure out what are the strengths and weaknesses of that business. So kind of like a SWAT analysis and being able to help them with the things that are going to really move the needle and increasing the value of their business, whether or not they ever want to sell it because if you increase the value of your business, you're going to be spending out more cash flow. It's going to make you healthier in the long run. And then it'll certainly make it a lot more attractive to a potential buyer someday if you've got all your financials in order and you've got a really healthy profit margin and ROI and all the other things that go into having a valuable and sellable business. So it's a one-stop-shop, really, in terms of being able to look at a business, identify what are its strengths and weaknesses. For the weaknesses, we want to connect them with the resources that are going to help them fix those weaknesses and then ultimately be kind of their white-glove concierge along the way to a successful exit. Joe: And the Amazing Exits Podcast, that's where you're going to talk to people that have actually sold their businesses and have those resources, those experts on as well. Kelly: Yes, that's going to be both. I mean, we are looking for as many sellers as we can who have exited so we definitely want to have those as guests on. But we're also featuring top experts such as yourself to talk about exit planning. We're really trying to make exit planning sexy. This is what I say all the time and to really… Joe: Good luck. Kelly: Well, we're very passionate about it. And I think that if we couch it in terms of making your business more valuable now, like do you want more money now in your bank account and your pocket to feel your life, to feel your investments? Well, that's what it takes to build a successful business. And you might not ever want to sell it, but you should be building a sellable asset and realize why you're doing this. Joe: You're preaching to the choir. Making exit sexy again or sexy to begin with is; I had David Wood on the podcast and one of his visions was for people that are planning to eventually sell their business to imagine themselves on the beach doing whatever they want because they've got enough money in the bank to live off of and that's the sexy part of it. Or if you're building a better business, it's kicking off more cash flow. You are struggling less. You're able to do the things that you want because you've got the money and that part is sexy as well. Accounting makes most people's eyes bleed. It's the foundation of understanding cash flow and running your business successfully to get a strong exit. As you know, Kelly, anyone listening that owns any kind of online business at this time odds are that their business is their most valuable asset. Also, if it's an e-commerce business that's growing odds are that more than 50% of the money they'll ever make from that business will come the day that they sell it. All of that combined should kick start them into wanting to do more exit planning or coaching or training or things; whatever you want to call it, just getting in shape. As you want to work out and get your body in shape you should exercise your exit strategy muscles so that you're in better shape for your eventual exit because you will have a better path to it, a better exit as well, and be better off afterwards so that you can all go on to your next adventures, whether it be start another online business or do what Kelly is doing which is consulting and helping other people or where she was just a few years ago. Kelly: I couldn't agree more. That's so well said. And I would just add to that then, I truly believe, Joe, that one of the fastest ways to build wealth is to build a business and in this case an Amazon business and sell it. And that's the word that I want to get out to people, is that this is, like you said, your most valuable asset, most likely. And I didn't retire after I sold my business. I made a nice chunk of change and now I'm able to invest that into cash-producing assets but I will never stop being an entrepreneur. But I have so much freedom; clarity now that I didn't have when I was on that hamster wheel of running the business. So I want to just be able to express that to other sellers that there is another option to get off the hamster wheel and you can sell and do this again if you want so you'll have a lot more freedom and peace of mind. Joe: And cash in the bank throughout though. Kelly: Yes. Joe: Great. Kelly, thanks so much for joining the Quiet Light Podcast. I appreciate it. We'll put URLs up in the show notes for people who want to reach out. Kelly is there any other way that they can or should find you? Kelly: Yes, absolutely. They can connect with me on LinkedIn. I'm pretty active over there. @KellianneFedio on Facebook and then they can also go toAmazingExits.com and sign up for our email list for when we get ready to launch the podcast later in August most likely. Joe: All right, she rolled her eyes a little bit here folks for those not watching. She's got a hopeful goal of August. I think it's going to be great whenever you launch it. If it takes an extra few weeks is not a big deal. Kelly, thanks for being in the Quiet Light Podcast. I appreciate it. Kelly: Thank you so much, Joe.

On this episode of the Quiet Light podcast, we have the opportunity to speak with Jesse Kaufman, the CEO and founder of Shipping Tree. Though Amazon sellers often use that company's fulfillment services, some people engage a third party. 3PL's can do everything from start to finish or they can merely be used as a prep center. Regardless of how you use a 3PL, there are ways to optimize your expenses. Tune in to hear our discussion about how to negotiate with a 3PL.   Topics: The typical Shipping Tree client. Deciphering quotes from 3PLs. The best integration models for 3PLs. How using a 3PL can save money. Commerce zones. Different types of Amazon seller accounts.   Resources: Shipping Tree Jesse@shippingtree.co Quiet Light Podcast@quietlightbrokerage.com   Transcription: Mark: So within the world of Amazon FBA, a lot of sellers rely on Amazon's fulfillment services and simply ship all the product over there but there are other sellers who utilize a 3PL either to fulfill the product and do everything from beginning to end and there are also those that use it just as a prep center before sending it off to Amazon in a way to try and save on some of the fees. And I think we can all agree Amazon's fees for fulfillment are pretty high compared with a lot of other solutions out there. Joe, I know you had somebody on who owns a 3PL and you guys talked a lot about how to negotiate the rates with that 3PL and how you can optimize some of your expenses by using a 3PL as opposed to just sending everything carte blanche over to Amazon. Joe: Yeah, these are my favorite kind of podcast guests when they go on and they talk about everything that they do and give it all away for free on podcasts like this. He's not pitching their services. He's just like, if you're negotiating with a 3PL look for this, don't do this, throw that contract away, if you have recurring revenue shipments, this is how you save on your shipping cost. If you have a 3PL located in Southern California, here's the benefit; monetary benefit by way of example of shipping from Ohio and things of that nature. It was fascinating. We've had a lot of people over the years say hey can you recommend any 3PLs and that was the point of having this person on knowing that he would give it all away for free. I think it's going to be very helpful for those that currently have 3PL, very helpful for those that ship exclusively through FBA because it's convenient, and some of the benefits of having a 3PL for kitting, for doing so fulfill Prime to avoid what happened during the pandemic where there were delays from Amazon shipping because of shipping medical supplies first; all sorts of different things that I think will really help the current e-commerce business owners and those that want to buy improve their bottom line and improve their customer experience as well. Mark: Yeah, I think this is all about control, right? I think the pandemic is a great example. Those that were 100% reliant on Amazon often saw; many of those guys saw delays and disruptions in their supply chains and also their ability to fulfill orders. Those that were using 3PLs didn't because they had that outlet for everything. So this is an interesting topic and this is where a lot of ROI is made in acquisitions, is learning how to optimize the expense profile and especially on that Amazon side so I'm excited for this one. Joe: Me too and just as a teaser it gives away one example where I, based upon the numbers you gave me, probably added a million dollars in value to the company. Obviously a very large company but if it adds $10,000 or $100,000 in value just by doing little things that make a difference, it really adds up to the overall value so let's go listen. Joe: Hey folks Joe Valley here from Quiet Light Brokerage and Quiet Light Podcast. Thanks for joining us again. Today we're going to talk about 3PLs, how to save money on shipping, all sorts of different things in that regard. And today, we've got Jesse Kaufman from Shipping Tree. Jesse, welcome to the Quiet Light Podcast. Jesse: Thanks for having me. Joe: Good to have you here. As I said earlier, we don't do fancy introductions, so I don't have a big bio on you. No one knows you better than you so why don't you tell everybody listening who you are and what you do? Jesse: Yes, my name is Jesse and I'm the CEO and founder of Shipping Tree. A 3PL based in Los Angeles with facilities across the country. I'm Canadian and got my start in the fashion distribution business and quickly realized that the 3PL world wasn't where it should be, at least in North America, and that's why started Shipping Tree. Joe: And is your typical client an e-commerce client with lots of different SKUs like from your fashion background? Jesse: Yes, our typical client now are e-commerce direct to consumer-focused companies in the CPG supplement cosmetics space, actually. Joe: Wow. Okay, so lots of people picking, packing, and shipping. That's great. Jesse: Yeah. Joe: Okay, so let's jump into it. A lot of people; I've worked with 3PLs myself, I had a nutritional supplement company that I sold a decade ago if you can believe that; almost a decade ago, before I joined the Quiet Light team and I don't know if I negotiated the greatest deal with my 3PL because he was a friend of mine. Jesse: Impossible, yeah. Joe: We did recurring revenue shipments and the owner was a friend of mine and because of that probably either I got an amazing deal or I got a terrible deal; probably nothing in between. Jesse: You'll never know. Joe: I'll never know. No. And I was just going to go on the craziest side there but people do not need to hear that history. Let's talk about, first and foremost, what's the best approach to reaching out to a 3PL and not just simply accepting the boilerplate prices that you give or should they or is there a way that you can professionally negotiate so it's a really healthy deal for both parties? Jesse: Yeah, totally. So, I think most important in your 3PL search is kind of put as many feelers out there as you can, get your internal data together, and organize before you put out those feelers so you could give those prospective 3PLs the data they need to give you pricing quickly. Joe: What kind of data are we talking about? Jesse: It's really like shipment data. So like a pretty basic Shopify export of your orders that includes the dimensions and the units in the order. That should give any 3PL the ability to quote you really accurately. Then once you start getting those quotes back right away, it'll be pretty evident. Some 3PLs their quotes will have 30 line items. Others like mine and some of our closer competitors will have more in the neighborhood of three to five line items. So right away, all those 3PLs with 30 line items of potential charges throw those proposals in the garbage. There's no use even negotiating with those guys. The other ones with simple line items, three to five, maybe up to 10, those are the ones you want to focus on because, in my opinion, those are the ones that have the most merchant focused approach to the way they do business. And then areas where you can negotiate with 3PLs, in my experience, would be the initial processing fee on an order. So typically speaking, the most labor-intensive and expensive part of the work that we do are the individual picks. So 3PLs are rarely going to have margins to negotiate on the pick fees for your orders. Joe: And the pick is literally someone walking around and picking your product off the shelf and putting it on the proper conveyor belt to have the label put on. Jesse: Exactly. Joe: Okay. Jesse: Yeah, so you want to negotiate on the larger items on that list. So things like storage, processing fees, get rid of any minimums and stuff and kind of like frame your business as one that's even if you're just starting, it's ready to scale you're a smart team, you're going to scale it quickly, get rid of those minimums, focus on things like storage, processing, packaging, and you could kind of dwindle those down a little bit. Joe: Are there startup fees in most cases with 3PLs that I have to pay you $5,000 for the pleasure of doing business with you and that's just the setup fee and then it's going to be a monthly pack and ship fee? Jesse: If that comes across your desk, throw it in the garbage. Joe: Just throw it in the trash, okay. Jesse: Yeah, throw it in the trash. If you have really complex integration needs like an ERP system like NetSuite and a ton of different marketplaces, then there might be; you could expect some sort of integration fee and tech fees for that. But if you're just running like run of the mill, Amazon, Shopify, Walmart.com, maybe an accounting system; like all of that should be out of the box with the 3PL that you work with. Joe: Can you just dumb down what an integration fee is? Jesse: Yeah, so you're going to want your 3PL to plugin with whatever systems are running your business on the shopping cart side or the marketplace side of things and so you that you don't leak your sales channel. You want the 3PL to plug into there so data flows back automatically, your team has very little to do, that really is going to take the weight of shipping and fulfillment off your plate. And some companies charge for these integrations really like a setup fee, which isn't right because for Shopify, for example, we've built the integration already. We enter a couple of lines of code and the integration is done in five to 10 minutes so why would we charge you $500 for that? It's just not right. Joe: Good markup, $500 for five minutes of work. I like that. Jesse: I do like that markup, but we don't do it. Joe: Not if you want to keep the customer long term, I suppose, right? Jesse: Yeah. So, we've built out; and you want to find a 3PL that owns their tech stack. So what I mean is they kind of own their platform and they own the integrations. So we've built out these integrations so we've done the work upfront already and it's ready so we could just deploy it for the merchant. Joe: That makes a lot of sense because that's probably where the $500 charge comes from, is because they're using somebody else's software that somebody else is charging them and they're passing it on to the product owner. Jesse: Exactly, yeah. Joe: Is there a particular; I know that within Shopify, within the different websites platforms, there are different integrations for processing shipping. Is there a favorite integration that most 3PLs are comfortable with? And I cannot think for the life of me of a single one of them right now and I've used them before in the past but is there any particular integration that people like in terms of that processing of the order and having it ready to be shipped just to be shared with a 3PL or am I a little off track here? Jesse: A little off track. A little, so that's like if you just had a regular Shopify store, you would actually install the Shipping Tree app in your Shopify store. Joe: Okay, so you've got your app that you would install. Jesse: Yeah. Joe: Okay. Jesse: But you're talking about a product like Ship Station. Joe: Yes, that's the one I was trying to think of. Thank you. All right. Jesse: So Ship Station is great. We integrate with them also. Ship Station is great if you're selling on a ton of marketplaces like Etsy, Groupon; like if you're really marketplace heavy grand Ship Station is great because it brings all that in one place and then that's just one integration for us to run and manage. Joe: Okay, for people that are selling on Amazon is the largest marketplace and some of their own Shopify sales as well is there a benefit to using a 3PL to store inventory before shipping it off to Amazon, and do you provide those types of services? Jesse: Yeah, totally. So we do that a lot for our customers. We kind of run in parallel to Amazon like the verticals and the brands we serve and everyone needs to work with Amazon these days especially in CPG and cosmetics and supplements and stuff. So, yeah, our storage rates are generally cheaper than Amazon and more flexible. Joe: You can probably do kitting that  Amazon's not doing, right? Jesse: Yeah, so we could help prep your stuff to go to Amazon. So if your factory isn't putting the Amazon FNSKU barcodes on the boxes we could do all that work for you. Joe: And you happen to be in Southern California so if it's coming off a boat it just have to go very far, which is kind of a strategic location, I would imagine. Jesse: Exactly, yeah. Joe: I had a guy named Rocky Cliburn on the podcast in the last, I don't know, maybe it was a year ago and Rocky was just this great buyer in his 60s. He was a general manager of car dealerships, if you can imagine, for his entire life and then he bought a jewelry business; an e-commerce jewelry business from Amanda here on the team. And Rocky and his daughter ran the business and within months improved the margins by like $8,000 to $10,000 a month by working with their fulfillment center in terms of shipping rates and packaging and things of that nature. You and I chatted prerecording here about saving on postage in terms of improving the value of a business and so you understand we always talk about the value of a business and it's really based upon profit, which is actually called seller's discretionary earnings. It's not about topline revenue. It's about what you get to keep. And a lot of folks don't focus on the 3PL potential savings as they prepare an eventual exit of their business. So how do you end up saving thousands of dollars on your shipping and postage like Rocky did if you're working with a 3PL, what kind of recommendations have you implemented for clients of yours? Jesse: That's a great point; a great question. So there's two things there. One is choosing the right shipping methods and another is the packaging that you're choosing. So I'll start with the packaging and for example, a jewelry company they might have one standard box size for all their orders just to they think it's a good solution that's like a catch-all. Every order ships in the same box so it either might be too big or it might be too small. If you optimize that, especially for smaller weight items, every ounce is almost 20 cents with the Postal Service. So if you could figure out a way to ship in a smaller box, maybe a more efficiently sized box, even though you think it might be it's a bigger inconvenience to have to source two different sized boxes or whatever it may be, you're going to knock 5%, 10% off your postage just right there optimizing for box size especially for orders under a pound. Joe: How much do boxes really weigh I mean if we're talking about the size of a shoebox? Jesse: So a shoebox is quite like half; almost half a pound, I would say. Joe: Okay, so if you can save a couple of ounces, you might be saving $400 or $500 a month if you're shipping a thousand orders a month or something like that. Jesse: Easy, yeah. Joe: Back in the day, when I was doing what most folks do that are listening, we had a fulfillment center up in Maine, which is just crazy because I was shipping all over the country but that's where I was from at the time. But they had a subcarrier. It wasn't the US Postal Service. They had somebody else that was sort of a cheaper version of that that would take it to the US Postal Service and then the US Postal Service would deliver it for that last mile or so. I forget what that's called but is that something that a lot of 3PLs can utilize and how do you find out about it if you're working with a 3PL now? Jesse: Yeah, so those are called shipping aggregators or an aggregator service. A lot of the major carriers offer that these days. The FedEx one is called Smart Post, and then there's a DHL product called DHL E-commerce. So those guys would pick up from your 3PL, bring it as close as they can kind of to the customer, then USPS finishes it. So those are good and bad. They're great for saving money. They're bad for making first impressions. Joe: So they take a little longer to ship, right? Jesse: Yeah, exactly because there's more touchpoints. But I think what we spoke about was; like we have a lot of subscription-based companies. Joe: I think we did that. I think that's what we did, is did it on the recurring revenue aspect of it where it didn't need to be there in two days, you could get it in five. Jesse: Exactly. Yeah, so we could set it up. And always look for this in a 3PL to have flexibility with mapping your shipping methods. It's really important that they don't just like put all your orders like this is it, this is what you have to use because we work with all the carriers. We probably have over 100 available methods and we work with our customers to make sure they're using the best ones. So for a subscription-based company, that first-order should go out with like a fairly premium single carrier option like USPS Priority Mail or FedEx Ground or whatever it may be so that is quick and the tracking is seamless. And then once they get into that subscription funnel; the customer, you could set it up programmatically so that instead of the order shipping on the anniversary date, you ship the order like three days in advance and you use one of these slower and cheaper methods. So that way the order is going to arrive within one or two days of the correct window for the subscription renewal, you're going to save easily 30%, 40% on your postage that way, and yeah, everyone is happy. Joe: That could certainly add up, that's for sure. That subcarrier method, is there tracking with it as well or not? Jesse: There is tracking, but it's known to go dark the tracking sometimes. Joe: Okay. Jesse: It's not as reliable as a single carrier because yeah. Joe: Okay, do you have; actually location, does it really matter? As I just said a few minutes ago, my fulfillment center was up in Maine. I was shipping all over the country. Jesse: That might be the worst place, Sanford Fulfillment Center. Joe: Oh really? Okay [INAUDIBLE 00:19:30.4]. Why would that be the worst? Is it just zone wise is the best place inside of the country or is the best place in Southern California where you are? Jesse: Okay, so if you could only choose one fulfillment center or one location, middle of the country is best unless obviously, all your customers are west. Like, if you're a surf brand and all your customers are on the West Coast choose a West Coast 3PL. But if you're just a normal run of the mill brand and you could only have one facility choose something in the middle, that way shipments are never really going to go to the outer edges of the zone map. So if you just Google search a zone map, the country will be split up into kind of columns like a heat map with the further you go, the further the zone and it goes up to nine zones. If you're in the middle of the country, the furthest zone is like six or seven possibly. And so with Maine, the reason why Maine is not so great is New York, historically one of the biggest population centers in terms of e-commerce orders going to that area, that's a zone two or three for Maine. So you're not even getting the benefit of being that close to New York geographically and then everything in L.A. is a zone nine. Joe: Let's talk dollars, though. Jesse: Yeah. Joe: And you've seen this with clients that you've brought in. How much are we talking about? If somebody is; and I know it's hard to quantify, so maybe we're only talking percentages but… Jesse: I could give you an example. Joe: Please. Yeah. Thank you. Jesse: Yeah. So we opened our facility in Ohio last year and we had a customer; one of our better customers, the supplements company, they were shipping everything out of our L.A. warehouse, obviously. Right away they probably spent close to $100,000 a month on postage. Joe: Okay. Jesse: Or they did when we were; they still do it [INAUDIBLE 00:21:34.4]. Right away when we started shipping out of Columbus and Los Angeles; so now you cut it down to furthest the package is going is zone four. Right away they started saving $15,000, $20,000 a month. Joe: Holy cow. Jesse: Not changing anything and the shipping speed… Joe: I hope everybody is listening to this far just because in that situation, $100,000 a month, even if all you spend is $10,000 a month on shipping, you're saving 15% to 20%. Jesse: Yeah. Joe: Go ahead. Jesse: And your customers are getting their orders quicker. Joe: So they're happier too; you're getting no return rates, higher customer satisfaction. Jesse: Yeah. Joe: The value that adds to the company in terms of customer satisfaction is huge but the value in terms of the sellability of the list price of the company for that one spending $100,000 and it drops to $80,000 a month, that's $240,000 of real cash saved on an annual basis. Jesse: Yeah. Joe: The size of that business, I'm going to guess maybe it's at a four-time multiple. They just added nearly a million dollars to the value of their company by saving $240,000 a year. That's that net worth. It's pretty incredible. So as whatever, it's just shipping, I'm going to focus on revenue, just stop focusing on revenue alone and look at some of these other things, because it's just math and logic saves a tremendous amount of money. That's awesome. What other tips and tricks do you have here Jesse? Come on, keep throwing them at us. Jesse: Yeah, so splitting up inventory; that's a big one. So using multiple facilities and find a company that has a few facilities and if you could afford it, there's a lot of fulfillment consultants out there who aren't terribly expensive at all. But it could be a really daunting process for brands going through their whatever they use Excel or the ERP or their inventory systems and be like, how am I going to split up the inventory between two warehouses? I don't know where demand is, all that stuff. There's people out there and software tools out there that could help figure that out for you. Joe: It's not something that a 3PL will do when they've got multiple centers or you'd refer them on to these consultants? Jesse: Yeah, we could do it. For inventory planning, we're building tools for that. It's really complicated to do and to do properly. It's not our core competency. And it's a big responsibility to do that properly. We could totally look at your shipping data and tell you how much you would be saving by using Facility A, Facility B, or them in conjunction. Joe: Okay, so splitting up inventory to the right fulfillment centers you're saving like your client did 15% to 20%. Jesse: Yeah. Joe: Any other sort of immediate thoughts come to mind in terms of somebody that either let's assume that they don't even have a 3PL now what should they; I know obviously you want them to go to ShippingTree.co and work with you but if they're already in a relationship with somebody, how do they improve that relationship and any other tips that you can think of? Jesse: So always think of your 3PL partner not just as another vendor, but really as a partner and part of your business and kind of put yourself in their shoes when it comes to the way you send them inventory, the way you keep them in the loop on sales or promotions you're running. Like really consider them like an outsource or your shipping department that's just outsourced. So if you were doing your fulfillment, you wouldn't run like a flash sale and then call down to the warehouse 20 minutes after the flash sale launch and be like, hey, buddy you have 15,000 orders coming down the pipe. You would tell your people in your own company a few days in advance. So do that with your 3PL, help make their jobs a little easier, send them stuff that's barcoded, clearly divided. We deal with a couple of hundred customers and you could imagine how many different items we have in the warehouse. All our merchants are really passionate, but like, I can't tell the difference between print like bandana print 1 and bandana print 2 you know? Joe: Yeah, we always hear stories of Amazon messing products up. I'm sure it happens in 3PLs as well. It's not you. Jesse: It happens but there's things you could do to mitigate that. Like work with them as a true partner and if you sense any pushback in trying to improve the relationship, I would look elsewhere. Joe: Yeah. Can 3PLs do fulfill by merchant with Amazon Prime? Jesse: Yeah. Joe: And are you in that situation or is it not a 3PL, in general, it's more of the product at the 3PL, how does that work? Jesse: Okay, so fulfilled by merchants we could do no problem. And then there's Seller Fulfilled Prime, which is that is actually on the merchants. They have to get their accounts authorized for Seller Fulfilled Prime. Joe: Even if they're using a 3PL? Jesse: Yeah, so their specific Amazon seller account has to be authorized for Seller Fulfilled Prime. Joe: Is that a daunting task or something? Jesse: Yeah, it's at least 90 days, and yeah. Joe: And what's the benefit to that in your opinion? Jesse: So the benefit there is you get the prime badge on your Amazon listings, you kind of get all the benefits of winning the buy box that you'd get with using FBA but the package could be sent out in your own custom packaging. You control the whole process and generally, it's a little cheaper than Amazon; storage wise and stuff like that. Joe: You still have to abide by the terms of services I would imagine. You still don't own the customer, even though you've got all the customer data minus the phone number, I suppose. Is there any advantage to doing Seller Fulfilled Prime using a 3PL in terms of customer data that you get to keep versus just using FBA? Jesse: I don't think so. It's more like a flexibility piece. Joe: Okay. Jesse: So those sellers that were set up with Seller Fulfilled Prime when COVID hit and FBA stopped allowing shipments in, they didn't skip a beat, they kept their Prime badge, all that stuff. Joe: Yeah, okay. Jesse: It's a little bit more secure. Joe: Having control as opposed to letting Amazon have full control of it, yeah. Okay. This has been great. We're up against the clock here, but this is fantastic stuff. I think that anybody out there listening needs to dig deeper into their expenses on the 3PL side. If all you're doing is fulfilled by Amazon, you might want to look at at least a 3PL like Shipping Tree to do kitting and prepping and getting it shipped off to Amazon so you're not paying exorbitant storage fees at Amazon and then as your offline Amazon sales grow running a Shopify side so on and so forth, I think is great to do. So any last-minute thoughts in terms of other things that people could do to benefit themselves with 3PL negotiations and working with them before we wrap this up? Jesse: No. Just be aware of this. Like I said I think the biggest red flag are those proposals you get back that are like two or three pages long with a ton of line items. That's going to be a headache of a relationship for you to manage. Find someone that keeps it simple for you. It's a complicated process. It's my job to simplify that for our merchant customers and find someone that will do that for you. Joe: I got you. Okay, how do folks reach you and your firm, Jesse? Jesse: If you're going to reach out you could email me directly Jesse@ShippingTree.co or go to our website and fill out the form there. Joe: Awesome. I appreciate your time. We'll look forward to a lot of folks reaching out to you as well. Jesse: Cool. Thanks, man. Take it easy.

Joe Lonsdale is a General Partner @ 8VC and in the past has invested in many notable companies including Wish, Oculus, Oscar and Guardant Health. As a result, in both 2016 and 2017, Joe was the youngest member of the Forbes 100 Midas List. Prior to 8VC, Joe co-founded Palantir, one of the world's most impactful multi-billion dollar software companies. Joe also co-founded and serves as Chairman @ Addepar, which has over $1.8 trillion managed on its wealth management technology platform. If that was not enough, Joe is also a founder of Affinity, Anduin and Esper. In Today’s Episode You Will Learn: 1.) How Joe made his way into the world of tech and startups, came to co-found Palantir and Addepar and how that led to his founding 8VC? How does Joe believe the study of history makes one a better investor? 2.) Why does Joe believe that the best VCs are company builders? How does Joe think about, evaluate and put into action the incubator model? How does Joe respond to LPs that suggest it is a distraction? How does voting for incubations differ for investment voting? 3.) What does contrarian thinking really mean to Joe? What does Joe do to specifically engender contrarian thinking in the 8VC partnership? What is the relationship between contrarianism and political correctness? How does Joe think about the dangers of woke culture today? 4.) How does Joe advise founders to think through cash burn and runway today? What is going to happen to companies that sacrified growth for gross margin in 1 year? How does Joe advise founders on the balance of sticking to your vision and mission vs knowing when to give up? 5.) Why does Joe think it is important to not just start new companies but new cities also? Despite the insane cost of living, why does Joe believe the Valley has given rise to the insane levels of innovation it has done? Will the dominance of the valley remain over the next decade? Items Mentioned In Today’s Show: Joe’s Fave Book: How Innovation Works, A Time to Build: From Family and Community to Congress and the Campus Joe’s Most Recent Investment: Beacon As always you can follow Harry and The Twenty Minute VC on Twitter here! Likewise, you can follow Harry on Instagram here for mojito madness and all things 20VC.

In today’s Solidarity Fridays episode, Joe and Kyle sit down to talk about topics in the news including Mindmed’s phase one research into DMT, the intricacies of intravenous or infusion-pump administration, the potential clinical application of DMT, and whether or not mainstream science is ready to handle some transpersonal phenomena like entity encounters that sometimes occur during DMT experiences. They also discuss the projections for the psychedelic drug market and the intentions of the companies entering this space, and a recent tweet from the Drug Policy Alliance discussing how the war on drugs is a tool of racial oppression.  They dive deep into the war on drugs and racial oppression by discussing how sentencing for crack-cocaine is much harsher than cocaine (while basically the same drug), how NYC’s “stop-and-frisk” program was essentially put in place to put people in jail for cannabis possession, and how Breonna Taylor never would have died if police weren’t looking for drugs. They discuss the tragedy of Elijah McClain and what purpose a lot of police activity really serves, while looking at the “protect ourselves first” fraternity mentality that a lot of these power organizations have and how difficult it can be for a good person to become a whistleblower in those situations.  They also talk about revisiting philosophy through Lenny Gibson and how beneficial it has been to explore that world as more mature people and see connections to psychology, as well as learning the limitations of scientific explanations when dealing with deep, transpersonal experiences.Lastly, they mention their excitement in participating in the re-scheduled Philosophy of Psychedelics conference coming up next year in England. Notable quotes “I stopped doing research on near-death experiences at some point, where I was just like, ‘I’m sick of reading about [how] these are just physiological reflexes and responses within the brain, maybe the lack of oxygen, or all the different neurochemistry that’s going on within the brain at the time of dying…’ There’s something so interesting about that experience, that no matter how much mechanistic information I have, there’s still something there that eats at me… kind of like this lore… the lore of beauty and life kind of unfolding. It’s oriented towards growth and beauty, and I guess that’s what some of these experiences have really taught me- and it is that lore to grow, evolve, and move towards something. And I think when I try to put some sort of biological explanation to it, it almost halts that and says ‘that experience doesn’t really mean that much.’” -Kyle “Science has limited capacity to help people with meaning-making.” -Joe “Do we have enough spiritual literacy? Do we have an inclusive enough cosmology to handle all of these cases? ...Are psychologists willing to call in an exorcist of some kind? Or some sort of priest [who] can handle this kind of thing? …I tend to think shareholders might be a little creeped out if publicly traded companies are talking about spirits and entities. Are we ready for that?” -Joe “What does it mean that you have to put somebody in prison for 10 years for a non-violent offense, as a cop? Like, you pulled someone over, you found some drugs in their car, and now they go to prison. And their life is essentially ruined. And you made the decision to become a police officer and uphold laws. Like, can you sit with that and be ok with that, as an individual? Why do you think drugs are so bad that locking another person up in a cage for years and years and years is ok? …[They say], ’because they have meth or fentanyl, they are the most dangerous people out there!’ What about the rapists and murderers? What about drunk drivers that could kill 20 kids in one night? Why are you spending time on drug offenses when there are rapists out there? There are tons of untested rape kids at all these police departments across the country.”- Joe Links NeonMind Files Patent Application for Therapeutic Use of DMT Philosophy of Psychedelics conference MindMed investigating potential benefits of DMT in upcoming Phase 1 clinical trial collaboration Psychedelic Drugs Market Projected to Reach $6.85 Billion by 2027 Drug Policy Alliance's tweet about the drug war Aide says Nixon's war on drugs targeted blacks, hippies Jon Krakauer's "Missoula: Rape and the Justice System in a College Town" 2 Million People Want Justice For Elijah McClain And His Story Is Gut-Wrenching Support the show Patreon Leave us a review on Facebook or iTunes Share us with your friends Join our Facebook group - Psychedelics Today group – Find the others and create community. Navigating Psychedelics

On today’s episode we’re gonna talk about what our responses as fathers to the coronavirus, pandemic, and information tidal wave should look like. Does the Bible give any direction to our current chaos and what whiskey will be sip on while hashing this out.  Also, we welcome our first guest of the podcast, Joe Castaldo.  Joe is a cigar and whiskey aficionado, who you can find on IG @ofcaskandclaro. NOTES: Intro (podcast name, our individual names, what the podcast is about and the topic and or guest we will be talking with). This Weeks Whiskey: Knobb Creek 9 NOTES: Joe gives us a Whiskey 101 Questions for Joe: You Married? How long? Kids? What do you do for work Joe? What does single barrel mean? What does barrel proof mean? What is a finished whiskey mean Can a bourbon finished in another type of cask, technically still be a “bourbon” Is the term “cask” different than “barrel”? What does Bottle In Bond mean? Why bourbon? You a Christian? How do you feel like people are responding to this pandemic? Call To Action:  Follow us on our Instagram page “The Old Fashion Dad Podcast” for more content & DM us with any comments, questions or let us know what you would like us to talk about in a future episode. Don't forget to subscribe to this on Apple Podcast or your favorite podcast app, leave us a nice 5 star review would help us a ton and tell our friends and fellow dad to listen.

Neil Quinto and Chris Bernard are back to discuss the recent news that Joe Rogan’s podcast will be streamed exclusively on Spotify come September 1st. What does this mean for Joe? What does this mean for podcasters and the future of podcasting? Will Joe’s Experience be the same that he’s been sharing since 2009? The […]

On this episode of Quiet Light, we discuss Athena Severi's immersive Mastermind group, China Magic, and her work as an entrepreneur. Episode Highlights: Being a “connector of people”. The roots of China Magic. Why it's important to trust the wisdom of others. The China Magic schedule. Splitting the China Magic Mastermind into smaller groups. The Canton Fair. The percentage of women at Mastermind events. Transcription: Mark: I think one of the interesting things about the online world and online businesses is that online business owners tend to be more inclined to be a part of mastermind groups and to gather together and share information with each other. And these groups tend to range from small and informal; I know I'm part of a small mastermind group that would get together like once every few months for lunch to really evolve even to a point; Joe, I know you talked to Athena Severi is that right? Joe: Yeah. Mark: She takes people to China for 12 days as part of her mastermind group to educate and teach people and have people get comfortable with working in China, direct with Chinese manufacturers and teach them how to go about doing that. How did that conversation go? Joe: Yeah, well, great. Look, two things here, number one, it's so good to have a female entrepreneur on the podcast. There's just not enough in the e-commerce space and Athena is one of them. She's a terrific entrepreneur that connected with Kevin King, who we know, the Titan Network and her group, China Magic. At one point, she had an Amazon business and went over to China through a group thing and found it to be not very helpful, essentially abrasive and going about negotiating in a sort of Wall Street manner; the way that it really doesn't work. So she brought in some experts. She comes from the event planning world and she created China Magic and takes, I think its 50 people over to China for the Canton Fair for a 12-day event. Every night they have a mastermind group where they're talking about selling on Amazon. They have people go into the fair and walk around with you and help you find products, negotiate and talk with people in a way that builds lasting relationships. They travel to different cities. They do so many things and they brought in some amazing people that are mentors that go on the trip as well. And they also build lifelong relationships with the people that go. To top it off they stay at the Ritz-Carlton at like the 90th floor; it's pretty amazing. Mark: That sounds fun. Joe: And it's not unreasonably priced for a trip to China and all you get. I think she should be charging more. But one of the key things that I hear over and over and over again is that for an entrepreneur who has made the trip, made the effort to go to China and meet with their manufacturer, they come out with a better relationship with their manufacturer, better terms that improve cash flow, that allows them to invest more in more SKUs or more marketing. And what Athena does is she takes all the risk and mystery out of booking that trip to China. Personally, I would never want to do it on my own. She takes it all out. I would definitely go if I was an e-commerce entrepreneur through China Magic; I'll definitely do. Mark: Sounds great. Joe: Let's go through it. Joe: Hey, folks. Joe Valley here from Quiet Light Brokerage and today I have Athena Severi with me. She is the founder of China Magic. But I'm not going to say much more than that. Athena, welcome to the Quiet Light Podcast. Athena: Joe, it's an honor to be here. Thanks so much for having me. Joe: I didn't want to say much more because I want you to tell us who the heck you are. That's what we do here. I don't want to read a script. I want you to tell us what your background is, who you are, and then we'll go from there. Athena: Okay, cool. So I am naturally a connector of people. I build communities. And I've always created very unique event experiences where I connect people with people who are very brilliant, intelligent, and successful in their world. And because of that, I created some pretty interesting and unique experiences, including this will be called China Magic. Joe: Yeah, I think Kevin King introduced us for the very first time and he said, Joe, this lady collects people, which is an interesting thing to say. But then we talked about China Magic and you've talked about it and look, I've not run my own e-commerce site since 2010 when I sold. Now it's conflict, in my opinion, to online because I'm a broker, I'm between, in the middle. Even if I had my own e-commerce site I don't know if I'd want to get on a plane and go to China because it's just so overwhelming. But you kind of run this show and help people get over that overwhelming aspect of it. Can you talk about how China Magic started and what you do for people on the way there? Athena: Yeah. Joe: Because the audience is they're SaaS and they're content owners as well but for the e-commerce owners that think and know; we've talked about it, how to get better deals is to get on a plane and go to China and negotiate with the manufacturer, meet with them, becomes friends with them, become part of the family. But nobody really wants to do that. It's a big undertaking. So you help people with that. So tell us about China Magic a little bit. Athena: Sure. So just to kind of backtrack a little bit, I worked for a consulting firm in corporate America for some time and then I got introduced to the Amazon world. And I actually released a couple of products that went well. I actually quit my six-figure job selling on Amazon. So I would struggle quite a bit because I was actually in; I still am in the yoga accessory world and I dealt with fabrics and colors and sizes and different things that communication with China would always just take a long time. I get a sample sent to me if it was a bit off it would take a couple more weeks before they could actually remake it, send it back to me. And I was struggling with my own growth as a business because of that. And also, I always wanted to kind of design things a bit and not be the same as everybody else. So I think because of that, I was actually at a conference and someone mentioned going to China. And I never even thought of going to China before but I realized that's a big part of being in e-com is the quality of your products, the price point that you can get your products, like your supply chain and the suppliers that you deal with is such a huge factor when it comes to your business. And I noticed that there was a lot of Amazon sellers who were like very successfully and done millions of dollars on Amazon, but they weren't experts at sourcing and they had never been to China themselves. So I was actually quite intrigued by the idea of going on my own. Joe: How did you pull it off for the first time if you've never been, did you go with others or did you go by yourself? Athena: I did actually go with others. So the gentleman who is kind of pitching the idea of China, he really sold me on the fact that in order to really grow my brand, it's good to go directly and to meet suppliers. So I signed up for this trip and spent quite a bit of money. It was a three-day trip and we went to a place called Ebru. And even before we got there, I noticed there was a lot missing. Like no one told us what to pack, how to prepare for visa, how to connect with the fellow members; like there was missing a lot of pizzazz and being that I actually have a background in events and then networking and then taking care of people; I worked with celebrities, I've built huge conferences and events like my whole life; that's my background. Joe: Are you counting Kevin King as a celebrity right now? That's obviously… Athena: No. Joe: No? Okay, just checking. Athena: He's his own world but yeah, yeah, yeah. Joe: Okay. Athena: No, I mean like I worked with artists at a place that's called celebrities in revert for years so, like, I know how to red carpet people, how to take care of people, I know the power of connection and community so I was really expecting more of that. I was expecting to be mentored. And what I found when I got there is that they had a different point of view on how to deal with China. The person who was leading was talking about how you present yourself, this is big business and you really talk down the price and you go in there very hardcore, very aggressively, very western and… Joe: The opposite of everything I've ever heard. Athena: Exactly. So I was sitting there and I was not an expert in China whatsoever but I do know human beings and I thought this is very strange. So I actually wanted to do a test and one of the mentors that were on the trip was supposed to go to and source a few products using that method, going in and being the big dog and talking big things and I was like, you know, I'm going to go the other direction, I'm going to go very human being. So I went in, oh, my gosh, is that your daughter? Oh, how lovely. How are you today? Like actually building rapport and then talking about products, talking about the future, building a real relationship. And then towards the end, when things are already being sort of like that connection is there and the creativity and the future is there then I start talking about how can we do this and how could that work and what price point can we get this at? Do you see what I mean? Like a completely different way. They're going in and being like, how much is this and what can you do for me? And I was getting much better pricing. I was getting much better inputs and creativity and they were showing me things that they weren't showing everyone else. They weren't on the shelves and I was like, this is very interesting. So I noticed that also there wasn't much mentoring. They sent us out with these guys who were sort of high school students to translate for us and they didn't have a background in negotiating. They didn't actually understand sourcing so it's like I was brand new to the subject of China, these guys were brand new to the subject of negotiating and the blind is leading the blind. And so that was the trip I went on. And so I thought, you know what, this could be so much better. This could be amazing. And I went to the organizers and said, hey this is my background. And as it was, I was already bringing in the groups with me. I was like mentoring them I was keeping them upbeat, I was creating the networking, I was just that's who I am. So anyway, the point is that I offered to partner with them. I was like let's get together, let's make this beautiful. And they're like, you know what we're happy with the way this trip is. And I'm like, okay, cool. And I was like I'm going to just do my own. I'm going to bring in some friends and they're like yeah, yeah, cool. And so my first China Magic I brought 50 people to China and we extended it to a 12-day experience. Joe: Wow. let's talk about the benefit of going to China for an e-commerce entrepreneur and first, let's define who they are. Is it somebody that already has an e-commerce business that is going to meet with their manufacturer and work on new terms and so, so forth and find new products or is it, somebody that's just beginning, doesn't even have a website yet or a product and they're sourcing it for the first time. Who's the ideal candidate to join and go to China on China Magic's trips? Athena: Sure. So to me, if you want to be professional as an Amazon seller and you want to be able to have that sort of relationship and that creativity, it doesn't matter if you're brand new to Amazon or if you have scaled up to doing seven figures, eight-figures. Because what we've done in China and I can kind of tell you more about that in a bit is we actually cater to every sort of stage that people are in in their journey because you're going to be looking at sourcing in a completely different way. So, I mean, China Magic has progressed tremendously. We've already done six trips at this point. But to kind of backtrack a little bit and to kind of answer that question a little better I brought in people who were doing millions of dollars on Amazon and because they had never met with their manufacturer, they were actually able to get such a reduction on the cost of their products, such better terms, like these are people who've been working with the same supplier for two years, three years, and they would meet with them and by the end, like they were doing, 30% down 70% on shipping and they were able to get that down to like 10%, 20% down and then 30 days after landing, paying another 35% and then the rest 60 days or 90 days after. And what that does for someone's cash flow is amazing, especially when you're doing bigger numbers. And obviously coming from your perspective as a broker, that really helps with cash flow and it really helps growth. Joe: Yeah and it allows them to grow the business for sure. I think it's critically important. I've heard so many times how people go to China and really connect with their manufacturer and come up with better terms and better pricing. And even if it's just a dollar off cost of goods sold that you sell, 2,000 a month of that particular unit, that's $24,000 a year in savings. And then eventually when you do sell the business if it's at a three-time multiple, that's adding nearly $75,000 on the list price of the business. And you can put as many zeros before or after that as you want, it's important to do. All right so let's talk about the logistics of 50 people going to China but it's your first trip? Athena: Yeah, it was my first trip. And because I'm crazy, I booked every single person's flight myself. Joe: Oh my. Athena: Yeah, like I'm just a wild girl. Joe: You don't do that now, though, right? Athena: No, no, no. I don't do that now. Joe: Okay. Athena: Yeah, I mean, I think the thing that was most magic about China Magic is I connected with a gentleman named Marty Sherman who's been going to China for over 20 years. And this guy understands China on a level I'd never even come across before. And he really believes in developing relationships. And so the very first thing that we do in China Magic is we talk about the culture. We talk about how to really navigate the waters and how to actually approach people. And it's amazing, again, like these guys are professional entrepreneurs, they're professional business owners, they think they understand their suppliers, they think they understand how to do business. But then when you actually talk to someone who's been on the ground in China for over 20 years, the lessons he's learned and the things that he's been able to develop is so incredible. So that's really the power of finding amazing mentors and leaders when it comes to their field because they understand it better than any of us do, just the same way that you understand what you do so much better. Like maybe some guy sold his business or a couple of businesses or whatever versus someone who's actually seen the sale of hundreds, do you know what I mean? Like their professionalism that you gain from having done something over and over and over again. So what I was looking for when I started China Magic were people who were just absolute geniuses when it came to sourcing. So I actually met a guy; this is a crazy story but have you heard of Kian Golzari, Joe? Joe: No, I don't think I have. So does that make me uninformed; should I know about this? Athena: No, no, no. You're wonderful. You know, a lot of people. Okay, so one of the mentors that I had on China Magic asked if this guy could come visit and I was like, yeah sure. And he kind of hung out in China Magic and towards the end of our trip, he's like, do you mind if I put a little presentation together for everybody? I'm like yeah sure. So on this presentation, he starts talking; the guy's sources for the NFL, the NBA, Google… Joe: Wow. Athena: Inaudible[00:15:58.3] his own family's company that has at least 2,500 SKUs, I mean, he's literally a sourcing guide, right? And he became one of my closest friends and now he's my other main guys. I have got Marty, the one that's been going for over 20 years. And I've got Kian Golzari because the formula that I always used is like, if you want to fast forward your business a few years then you want to be around people who are extremely knowledgeable and successful because you can't even put a dollar amount on the value of having gone through so many mistakes, made so many bad choices, learn from all those mistakes; the network of these guys had like it's just crazy. So when people come to China Magic, a big part of the magic is connecting with people like Kian and like Marty and I think that makes a massive difference. Joe: Well, I just wrote down networking then you said there was connecting because we've talked about this before. There's a lot of time that 50 or 75 or 100 people that are going on a trip like this spend together. And the connecting of those relationships goes beyond just renegotiating or getting better terms and more SKUs with your manufacturers. A lot of people are making lifelong connections on these trips as well with fellow e-commerce entrepreneurs, right? Athena: Oh, gosh, completely. Like we've got people who met three and a half years ago at my first trip, they're still connected to this day. There's still some of them that have developed partnerships. And one thing that's very interesting is when you connect at that level Joe when you travel to a foreign country when you're with each other for that long, a lot of the social veneer comes off. You cannot get that relationship at like a conference in the hallway having lunch here and there. So because of that, people really start to open up and they start to share and that abundance mindset really clicks and that trust really clicks. And so I've traveled the world for five and a half years to build up this network. When you walk into China Magic like people come in as strangers and they literally leave as family and it's just like that gave me goosebumps. It is literally; you couldn't even; like you have to experience it to see the level of connection people have. And then those relationships are so valuable later on. Like you just see them helping each other and giving each other resources all the time; yeah, so it's a beautiful thing to see. Joe: So someone doesn't have to know anything about China; how to get in and out, you help them with that entire process from the visa to the booking of the hotel. So you may not do that yourself for their airline. Athena: Yeah. Joe: Is it you show up, you give them some guidance and they're off and on their own or is it pretty much they're told where to go and what to do all along the way? Athena: Okay, so we have kind of perfected this world. It's almost an art. We've got several group flights that we organize. We've got one from the UK, we've got one from the US, and we've got one from Australia. And it just depends on where our members are coming from. And so we organize our group flights. Everyone's on the same flight and then we have everyone get picked up in beautiful bus freight and then we get to the Four Seasons who love us to death and we are like their favorite humans. And they're waiting for us with Pellegrino and cappuccinos; they know how to take care of us. And so what we do on our very first day is we go and get everyone to the Canton Fair. We go to the Canton Fair by the way, and we go in there with mentors. I bring a ton of these mentors. And these are multi seven, eight-figure, we even have a nine-figure seller coming on our next China Magic. And so we walk in there with them, show them around; get them what it's like to see what it looks like. And then on the first night, we orient them to China, to negotiation, and then the next day, we actually go into the fair with them. So we are mentoring small groups of them throughout the trip. And then when they kind of graduate out and they feel confident, they kind of go on their own. But I have my guys on the ground constantly; we have a sourcing team of about 100 people. We've got connections to factories that are not on the grid; about 4,000 factories you can't even find in Alibaba or even at Canton. So if people are having trouble finding something, we actually utilize the vast network that we've built. So we really are very present for them the entire time. And a part of China that I didn't even mention is it's not just about China like we actually do content every single night about Amazon; so from A to Z, everything from branding to PPC to marketing to every single topic in Amazon is all covered within those 12 days. And we split everybody up into these itty bitty groups, and this is why we cater to everyone. We actually work with like if you're a top seller, you're going to want to talk to other top sellers about pain points that you're struggling with at that level. If you're new to your journey, you need a lot of hand-holding, you need a lot of help, and also, it's not going to mix them so we never do that. We have different content for different levels. And so you literally go in there and you're just going to be with a group of people that are in a similar part of their journey, being literally walked through the journey with some of the top brains in the entire industry throughout the entire 12 days. Joe: And is it always the Canton Fair? Athena: Yeah, so we always go to the Canton Fair. We go to Phase 2 Canton, which is amazing because you go and you're literally walking through booths and booths and booths of product, you're connecting with factories. Joe: What does Phase 2 mean versus I suppose Phase 1? Athena: Phase 2 is where you find like a lot of beauty products, a lot of kitchen products, a lot of household products, baby products. Phase 3 is more about travel, about sports, about different; so each phase of the Canton Fair has its own products and you can go to CantonFair.net and actually take a look at which phase is most appropriate. Joe: Okay. Athena: So what happens is like let's say most of your products are from Phase 2, you would utilize Phase 3 to go do factory visits which is another thing that we talk a lot about. It's like actually going and visiting with your factory, visiting with your suppliers, and we walk you through an exact way to negotiate and to project the future and create these amazing partnerships. Joe: So Phase 3 is a different China Magic trip where they're going to visit the manufacturers or was that a part of Phase 2? I was confused there. Athena: Oh no, no, I'm sorry. So Canton Fair is the largest fair in the world when it comes to sourcing and it goes through three phases. There's Phase 1, 2 and 3. We go to Phase 2 and then we go to Hong Kong for a few days and we go see global sources and do more sourcing there and we do more content there. Then we come back for Phase 3 of Canton. And so that's just a whole; like basically, they set up, they take away their products, and then a whole new world gets created in that next phase because they just got too many products to be able to do it all at one time. Joe: I got you. What about going out and visiting your manufacturers if they were off the grid or if they're not at the Canton Fair or are they all there? Athena: Oh, well, it just depends. Some people are there, some people aren't. But we highly recommend to go visit your factory and then we do a factory visit for those who don't have a supplier yet. And we actually went to a packaging factory that does packaging for like Adidas, Nike, Nescafe, or they got connections, this amazing world of like factories that we can take people to that we really recommend for people. We actually show them the exact step by step on how to go and visit with your manufacturer, how to go and like see the people that are building your products, how to actually build your products with them so that they can see you on the floors, you get an idea, and then Kian goes into like understanding how to like; let's say you're building a backpack, there's all these components, right? So how to look at each component over the world and there's ways to increase quality, to get innovative, to save money. So we teach people really that understanding of sourcing at a level to where you become an expert even within the first few days of China Magic. And this is stuff that like a lot of people are missing, like really, they're missing this within their business and they're missing a ton of product; I'm sorry, a ton of profit because there might be ways to save a lot of money on their products or there might be ways to innovate them and charge a higher premium for them or because they're not in there on the floor dealing with their products, understanding their supplier, it really might be leaving a lot on the table. Joe: How much time in advance do they have to plan a trip like this? Athena: I've had people sign up as quick as two weeks before but we get sold out so fast; like we're actually already sold out for our next trip months, months in advance. And the amazing thing about it is it's mainly word of mouth. We didn't even do any sort of advertising campaign or anything like that. We literally did a couple of Facebook Lives from China and we got like 90% sold out just from that. Because what we're doing in China Magic it is magic and I think people want to be a part of that. Joe: Are there any resources I assume on your website; what is the URL for China Magic that might be… Athena: They can go to ChinaMagicTrip.com. Joe: Okay, there's a trip in there. Athena: We have a waiting list, you can get on that waiting list. Joe: Do you have resources on the website for people that still are too scared to go to China or not ready or can't afford it yet or just starting out; any information that helps them with negotiation tips and things of that nature and dealing with a manufacturer from afar? Athena: Absolutely. So we do have a webinar series that we put together. So if they go to ChinaMagicTrip.com they can get on our list. And then also if they want to reach out to me, they can just go ahead and AthenaSeveri@gmail.com that's my personal e-mail if they want to. Joe: Oh you did it; you just gave out your personal e-mail address. Athena: I did. I don't mind. I have tons of people reach out to me all the time. They can find me on Facebook; they can find me on Instagram. I make myself very available. I actually talk to almost every single person that's ever been on China Magic. I've had a personal conversation with them before they even get going on our trip because I want to make sure that they're inaudible[00:25:48.6] abundance mindset so yeah. Joe: I don't doubt that for a moment. I can see it happening. Athena: Yeah. Joe: Every single person; just out of curiosity it's a woman, female-run operation, which is wonderful in this e-commerce male-dominated world that we live in. Athena: Yeah. Joe: But when it comes to ratios in terms of male versus female in terms of people that go on the trip, is it still heavily male-oriented or are there plenty of women entrepreneurs that go as well? Athena: I'm so proud of this, the trip I was on out of 60 people, three of them are women; the women that went on that wasn't my own. Joe: Okay. Athena: Today more than 50% of our trip is women. Joe: Beautiful. Athena: Because I take perfect care of them; I princess out the trip for them and they feel confident because they know me. They know I'll take care of them and I do. So, yeah, we've got amazing women on our trip. Joe: Excellent, and you've connected with Titan Network as well, right? And China Magic has kind of flowed into Titan. I had Dan on a podcast a couple of weeks ago talking about negotiating terms with manufacturers. Athena: That's right. Joe: So this is kind of a good evolution too. So what's the connection between Titan and China Magic? Athena: Yeah. Dan Ashburn is my partner with both China and Titan. So what happened was people would go for those 12 days and they would get so spoiled by the mentoring that we do because we do a lot of hands-on mentoring that the quality of our mentors are amazing. And so the only issue we were having with China Magic is that it would end after 12 days and we would see the amount of progress that was made. It's not just the sourcing, but like people that understand the rest of it and how to build a multimillion-dollar business; like you get to spend an hour with them talking about your business, the progress you make in that hour is just amazing. So what we did with Titan Network is we actually created sort of that mentoring and the magic of China but we did it all year long. So we added events and masterminds and weekly coaching and a lot of hands-on mentoring and Dan is just a freaking genius; I could not have built this without him. And we've basically recruited all of our top mentors from over the years and they're now part of Titan as well. Joe: Excellent. Let's answer the question a lot of people are asking; a ballpark, you can't give an exact figure because it's changing all the time but how much is it going to cost somebody to go on a China Magic trip, ballpark range? I'm putting you on the spot here I know. Athena: Yeah, because our pricing is changing. Honestly, we've been under-pricing for way too long. So I'd say a ballpark is around 8, we've done it as low as 6 for our… Joe: I was just going to say, even if it's 10, it seems like an incredible investment for people to make in their business because they're going to make that back in better terms, better cash flow, great knowledge, great friendships. And people go to mastermind events and spend an awful lot of money, here it seems like a 12-day mastermind event where you're really experiencing a completely different part of the world. Athena: 100%. And we also; I didn't even mention this but even before we get to China, we're doing training with them or mentoring them. We've got a Facebook group for connecting everybody so they actually get to know each other before they even head to China. So that's all included as well. So, yeah, I really I believe in what we do 100%, the lives we've changed; I mean, I have people who came on my original trip and they found a product that has been profiting them $30,000 $40,000 a month since inaudible[00:29:19.1] like it's just ridiculous that… Joe: I get the feeling, Athena, that you actually get more joy out of helping people than counting dollars, is that…? Athena: Oh, I'm terrible like Dan has to like keep me on track because I just have like a big heart and I'm always like, oh you want to come okay well let's work it out just because yeah it really is my happiest place. I think my happiest thing ever is seeing these amazing people that are like our mentors leaders, because a lot of them came from my attendees. A lot of these guys were attendees on my trip. They just happened to be more helpful, had bigger hearts, and had amazing success stories. So then I graduate them into being mentors and it's sort of the circle of life that's so pretty. And then they go and help other people and like, oh, man, it's like a dream come true to be in this industry, honestly. Joe: Oh that's fantastic. I'm going to wrap it up here. I'm glad we finally got you on the podcast. We were introduced I want to say three or four years ago and we keep bumping into each other. Athena: I know. Joe: So thank you for coming on. I'm excited here. Tell me again how people find out about China Magic; ChinaMagicTrip.com or net? Athena: Yeah so it's ChinaMagicTrip.com if they want to learn about Titan, if they're too scared to go to China, they can always go to TitanNetwork.com to connect with me there as well. My phone number is out there, like really, I give my heart and soul to my people and make sure that they're super taken care of. So I'm here for you guys and like I mentioned earlier, if you're beginning your journey, we can take care of you, if you're sort of in that intermediate zone looking to scale or even if you're very, very successful, even if you're looking to sell your business in six months you're like coming to China will benefit you in so many ways. Joe: I couldn't agree more. And for those that are wondering, yes, it is an add-back. If you don't know what an add-back is, reach out to us, we can help. You should know in an add-back is at this stage of listening. Athena: Joe, I just want to mention thank you so much for all that you do for the industry. You put your heart out there. I see how much value you add. It's like you could just do the thing that you're there to do but I see how much you help people grow and expand and it's just wonderful. So thanks for all that you do for community as well. Joe: Thank you for saying that. I very much appreciate it. Thanks, Athena. Talk to you soon. Athena: Yeah, thanks for having me. Resources: China Magic AthenaSeveri@gmail.com Titan Network Quiet Light Podcast@quietlightbrokerage.com  

One of the biggest challenges we face as business brokers is getting sellers to understand that we too are entrepreneurs. Getting people to do a valuation is one of the biggest hurdles because many think that just staying afloat is the goal, and the rest will come later. Sometimes later is too late. Today Joe and Mark are back sharing how to get valuation right. At Quiet Light we work hard to educate and help people find the growth paths that will get them the most value for their business in the event of a sale. We have a ton of experience in giving valuations and can guide current and future sellers to profit. When you build a great business with buyers in mind it will make the transfer so much easier. Episode Highlights: Why a business owner should plan an exit strategy early in the business building process. The benefits and tradeoffs of entrepreneurship. How long in advance someone should plan their valuation. How much it costs to do a valuation. The threefold beneficiaries of the valuation. The importance of the end goal while building. How the valuation process benefits the potential buyer. Ways selling a cohesively built business creates valuable relationships. The level of detail that is essential to a full valuation. Accounting tips for a better valuation as you go. How the valuation process gives owners paths hidden profits. The other three of a successful business How the invisible fifth pillar makes a difference in the overall value of your business. Mark's quick wrap-up of the importance of a valuation. Transcription: Joe: Mark, one of the biggest challenges that we have as business brokers is conveying to people that we're entrepreneurs first. We've all been in their shoes. We're technically still entrepreneurs, right? We run Quiet Light Brokerage. And getting people to get beyond the mindset of running their business and saying I'm not ready to sell I don't to have a conversation about exiting to actually thinking well in advance of an exit is one of the biggest challenges and honestly, it's frustrating. It's frustrating for me and that's why we work so hard to educate and help and we do this podcast so we can get more people thinking well in advance of their exit. But I want to ask you as the original founder of Quiet Light Brokerage, the man with so many stories to tell, why in your opinion should somebody even plan their exit and give it thought well in advance of selling their business; what are the benefits? Mark: Boy that's a big question and I could actually give you a number of benefits and since you put me on the spot I don't have them in order in terms of what I would think would be the most important. But I'll start with this one which I think might not be the most important reason but I think it might be the most applicable for most people. It will resonate with most people and that's this, having a business that is valuable in an exit usually means you have a very valuable business to own. That's the number one reason in my opinion. So let me explain that and flesh that out a little bit. Obviously, if somebody is willing to buy your business for quite a bit of money; let's say they're willing to pay a four-time or five-time multiple, what they're seeing there as a business that is desirable to own, it is going to grow, and it's going to kick off a lot of cash in the future which obviously if you come to me or come to any entrepreneur and say do you want to own a business that doesn't require a ton of work has a lot of upsides and is consistently throwing off money most people would say yes, right? If we talk about the four pillars which we do so often here, do you want to own a business that has a low-risk profile and good growth prospects as the two first pillars? Yes, most of us want to. So the first reason I would say is when you go through the process of planning to sell even if you decide not to sell your business the result of it is that you have a business which is more stable, you know the growth paths available to your business, and you have great documentation in place for the business. So that'll be my number one reason right out the gate. And I don't know if you want to discuss that or I can give you a couple of others if you want. Joe: Yeah well let's first tell the folks listening that there is no special guest today it's you and me and we're going to talk through… Mark: I'm special Joe. You're special. I am special. Joe: Actually, I just gave you hosting privileges on this. Mark: So we're special. Joe: Technically I'm the guest and then I'm not special. Hey, we're not having anybody on today because Mark and I have a ton of experience at this. We do valuations every day so we want to talk about the reason to have one done and then what we do. We'll talk about what goes into it, and what we discovered, and what we learned along the way. So yes Mark if you want to talk first about that first example that you gave an elaborate on it a little bit we can do that and then go into some details on what it's like to get a valuation and what we do here at Quiet Light Brokerage when we put someone through the process. Mark: Oh sure. Actually, I do want to get to the other reason because these are the two that were kind of vying for my attention when you first asked that question. The second reason is that you just really don't know what the future holds. In the 14 years of doing this; at the time of this podcast almost 14 and a half years that I'm doing this, the number of clients that I've run into that are unprepared for the sale is exceedingly high and the number of clients that are unprepared who wish they had planned in advance is almost universal. So if you find that you're unprepared to sell you you've reached that point where you want to and you realize you aren't there yet there's often some sort of regret. It's kind of like thinking about the person who goes into the dentist for a root canal wishing that they had visited the dentist more frequently before. That inconvenience at the time would have paid off. Or for the person reaching retirement age wishing they had done more to plan their retirement. There are so many of these examples where especially entrepreneurs would get focused on the here and now today which is important. Obviously, we need to take care of that without the eye towards tomorrow that when tomorrow comes it often takes you by surprise. For entrepreneurs, we're in such a really cool spot. We have an opportunity to generate income that frankly people in the regular business world or regular careers don't have the opportunity to make. The tradeoff is some of that stability that you would get in the corporate office world and maybe some of the benefits and everything else that goes along with that. But for us, the benefit; the gain is the income potential but also what most people fail to see is the value of the asset that they are building in and of its own right and that alone can lead to early retirement, that can lead to being able to invest in much larger projects, that can be catapulted into something significantly bigger. But it does not happen if you build an asset which can't be sold. And so not only is it good to own a business like this because it follows basic business principles of having a low-risk profile and high growth opportunities and is usually very well documented which is a good thing; it ties into those two elements but it also gives you financial flexibility for the future and also career flexibility for the future as well. And if you don't do it the flip side is you can build yourself a prison which I'm sure you've seen a few people build prisons for themselves and their businesses. Joe: That's very, very hard. You want the independence and life of an entrepreneur and you've built yourself a business prison that you can't get out of and you just can't get ahead. But let's ask this; people ask me these questions all the time, we have a conversation about exits and valuations all the time so I mean I'd just grow you with a few here. Number one how long in advance should somebody do evaluation and plan their exit? We always hear I'm not ready to sell, why should I talk to you now? Mark: At least 12 months, right? I'm working with a client right now and they wanted to do evaluations, see where they're at financially and I said that's great send me your P&Ls and your balance sheets and they did which is awesome. I had a chance to review them and I had some further questions for them. Nothing came back so I bugged them about it and nothing came back. I finally bugged them again and they said well you know what we're doing is we're actually going through and we're eliminating some of these discretionary expenses, we're going to be doing this, that, the other thing and alarms are going off of my head because I see them taking some tax that they probably shouldn't be, right? Okay, I understand where you're going. For example one of the things that they're doing is they're cutting back on advertising spending in order to grow their bottom-line earnings. Well, let me ask you, Joe, what happens when you cut back on advertising? Joe: That's a big no-no. It's convergent graph lines, right? Discretionary earnings go up and your total revenue goes down. Mark: Right. Yeah. Nobody likes that alligator going to the left. Because if you see a graph where the revenue is going down or earning is going up we know that earning is going to go down in the future or to regain the momentum you have to outspend on advertising in most cases. To make it a more efficient one thing but that's on another. So how long; sorry, you asked me a question and you know me, I won't shut up. 12 months at a minimum? I would recommend 24, even 36 if you can just because if there's big changes that you want to make; let's say that you really want to explore that new product line, give yourself some runway to be able to plan that out. Joe: Okay, how much does it cost to do a valuation? Mark: Well it doesn't cost anything. Joe: Why? If it's free what's it worth. I don't understand. What's the business model? You're doing valuations for nothing. Mark: Oh you convinced me. If somebody wants to do a valuation of myself you're going to be paying a lot of money. So for us, it makes sense, right? I mean the number of times when I've started Quiet Light and was working with clients in the early days so many clients were being turned away because; not in saying I won't work with you but I would do the valuation. They say I'm ready to sell my business and I take a look at it and Joe you know the conversation. You and I had this conversation. And I looked at your business and I said okay right now it's worth X but Joe if you wait a little bit time, do some of the things that you're doing right now, actually, you're doing a lot of good things, just wait a little bit you're going to add this much value to your business. Other people it's a little bit different, right? It's hey you know what you have your name, you are a doctor and you are selling an information guide about how to take care of athlete's foot. And your name is plastered all over this. Well, guess what? That's not a transferable business because everyone's buying it based on your name. So I'm going to have trouble selling your business and if we do sell it it's going to come at a discount. But Mr. Doctor athlete's foot if you take your name off of this and show us that it can run for 12 months just as well if not better than it is right now without your name plastered all over it instead of getting maybe a 1½ multiple you're going to get like a 3.2 or 3.3. Joe: And who does that benefit? Mark: That benefits the client. Joe: There are three parties that it benefits. Mark: I'm being quizzed here. Joe: You are being quizzed. So it benefits the guy who's running the business, it benefits Quiet Light Brokerage which is a weird model, right? We do it for free folks but in the long run, it benefits us because you're going to have a more valuable business. But there's this third party that benefits as well and that third party… Mark: Is the buyer. Joe: Right. They might eventually become our clients as well too. So it's an odd model. As my mentor said, Joe, it seems like you guys are giving things away for free on a hope and a prayer that they'll come back to you someday. And I said exactly Walter that's what we're doing and it works very well. We're building relationships and building trust and we're helping first. And strangely the more people we help the more our business grows and the more valuable their businesses become and the more buyers buy great businesses. And it's an endless positive cycle and works very well. With that said I remember being at eCommerceFuel a few years ago and I came back; I sat at the bar with one of the presenters, I cannot pronounce his name. All I know is he swore a lot on stage but he was really good. He was really good and I had a beer with him afterwards and he said something like well I'd have a valuation done but honestly it's free I'd feel like I'm committed to you. I'm obligated to you because I didn't pay you. If I pay you I can just walk away. And it's an interesting viewpoint but we are all about relationships and we want to help. We want to get it done. And the more conversations we can have well in advance of a sale selfishly it makes it a lot easier for us when it comes to the time to list your business. I'm in the middle of a valuation right now where there are two brands in one seller account and there's a royalty arrangement and they have a coaching business and different LLCs. It's just a mess and the add-back schedule is getting deep and long. It's almost as long as the P&L itself which raises the antenna of the buyers. We don't want that. We want to have this clean business presentation as possible. So I'm with you 12, 24, 36 months in advance. Have the conversation. Get an education on the value and the process of maximizing the value of what is likely your most valuable asset. I was having a conversation with Mike Jackness a few weeks ago and we're doing a presentation it was actually at eCommerceFuel and he said the problem is you can't talk too much about exits and planning with these guys. They're doing all they can just to keep the wheels on the bus, to keep revenue going, and not run out of inventory, and do all these different things. I'm like yes, yes, yes, but when they have a clear vision of the value of the business and the view of an eventual exit when the wheel falls off and they've got to put it back on it's a lot easier because they still know where they're going. Otherwise, they're just wandering aimlessly trying not to run out of inventory; solving problems without an end goal in mind which is it's exhausting sometimes. Mark: Yeah and I want to comment on one aspect here about the idea of benefiting the buyer because if you're a business owner you might be thinking well I don't really care about the buyer at the end of the day. I mean I care but when you talk to entrepreneurs and sellers sometimes the approach they take is yeah I hope that the buyer does well with it but that's definitely a footnote compared to what they get out of the sale and understandably so. I'm not criticizing anyone who has that sort of attitude. But in your opinion, Joe why should the seller care about whether or not the buyer gets a good deal? Not a good deal as far as discounted but a good business that they can make a good return on investment on. Joe: Yeah that's actually not very complicated. It's when you do the right thing you will be rewarded. If you build a great business that checks all of the four pillar boxes, that really highlights all of the financial key metrics in a very, very positive way; and these are things that we do in the valuation folks when all of those things are you know 8s, 9s, 10s or a really solid green light guess what? That buyer is going to pay you more for the business. They're going to pay a higher multiple with better terms and it's going to be an easier transaction for you. Most people that are selling their businesses sometimes it comes down to okay like Quiet Light Brokerage we had 2½ offers for every listing that we put out there in 2019. So buyers are liking our listings, they're liking the way the packages are put together because we work with our clients for a long time and sellers sometimes have a choice. And sometimes they want to choose who is going to be easier in the transition afterwards. When you build a great business and you think of your eventual buyer in mind that transition is going to be easy because you've got SOPs in place, you've got a long communication with your broker advisor here at Quiet Light that's going to talk to you about all of those different things and making that transition easier because that's one of the four pillars; the transferability of the business and all the things that generate revenue for it. So now you're asking a short question and I'm giving you a long answer, it's the buyer will pay you more, as simple as that. Mark: The buyer will pay you more. I would also add on there that I think we are quick to dismiss the power of relationships and the people that you're going to meet when you go to sell your business. These are really important things. I had a situation; as you know I have another business besides Quiet Light Brokerage that doesn't take up a lot of my time but I ran into an issue the other day. It was a really complex difficult issue but the seller and I are friends at this point. We know each other pretty well and I hadn't run into this before. So I sent him an e-mail and said hey how have we dealt with this before he came back with a nice long response and insightful and everything else. It was a really good resource for me to have and he and I are on good terms because he's treated me fairly all along and built a business that was worth buying, to begin with. He's a valuable asset and if I ever want to do new things in this space he would be somebody that I would look to partner with because he's already skilled in this area. And when you're selling your business you're typically selling to somebody who is highly skilled and a successful entrepreneur in their own right. Isn't that a good person to have you in your Rolodex? I don't want to overemphasize this point and say this is the only reason you want to do it. I think what you listed Joe what you explained I think that is really where you want to put the focus and emphasis. But there's a whole host of ancillary benefits to creating a transaction that benefits yourself first, the broker who is going to be working with you and your team your partner with you, and also that buyer making sure that they have a business that they're going to be able to succeed with. Joe: Let's talk about what we actually do in evaluation. Mark: Sure. Joe: I'm going to kick this off. One of the first things that; I've got a call this afternoon at 4:00 today I'm doing an initial valuation call with a couple of very experienced entrepreneurs. The first thing we need are financials. So as an entrepreneur, as a business owner, if you're not able to run a profit loss statement with a monthly view going back more than 12 months we're not going to be able to do a full valuation because the full valuation does a year over year comparison. I'm going to look at January of 2020 versus January of 2019 and hopefully ‘18 and so on. And that's part of the financial key metrics in terms of where the top-line growth trends are, where the advertising cost as a percentage of revenue is, and where it's trending. Is it seasonal? We're going to talk about the timing of listing a business sale. Even if you're looking three or four years out we're going to talk about some of those things and we're going to see all of that with the detailed financials. Now today Walker wrapped up a long email chain between all of us where he had a client trying to do a valuation and get his business listed for sale and all he had were quarterly P&Ls. What's the problem in your view Mark with quarterly P&Ls versus monthly P&Ls? Mark: It's just the level of detail, right? I mean I can go backwards. I can take monthly P&Ls and go over to quarterly and I didn't comment; we had a discussion about this within the company and I didn't comment on it before everything resolved themselves. There are some businesses frankly that I think quarterlies worked really well for and probably better for; businesses with lumpy income benefit from having a little bit larger of a lens that we're looking through to even that out so we can see what the real trends are. But it's good to have that option to be able to go to monthly because you have more detail. What you pointed out Joe and I think it's a very good point is that when you get into the transaction and let's say a buyer places an offer we get past a quarter and let's say that we're month one into the quarter, most buyers before they close on a transaction want to know what the business has done over the past month and that time that they're doing their due diligence. Did it completely blow up while they were doing that final piece of due diligence? So they're going to ask for these updated numbers along the way as they're going through the process. Well if you have to wait two more months in order to close to be able to get reliable updated numbers that's just going to extend your timeline, introduce further risk that something happens and the buyer has to pull out and will disadvantage you in that way. And again the lack of detail when I'm doing analysis on a business for a valuation I love looking at the trends I like looking at year over year trends and really I start to look at the different months. And it's surprising the number of businesses that obviously November December get a spike are pretty high but let's say like home and garden stores often get a bump right around April or May so that'll be a second quarter. Maybe it spans two different quarters and you really get a sense for how does this business breathe over the course of a year. Right? Joe: So we're going to look in great detail at the financials. So we want you to run a profit and loss statement for me to Quick Books or Xero with a monthly view going back as far as you can up through the most recently reconciled month. If it's an e-commerce business we definitely want to get those P&Ls on an accrual basis. If we can't get them on accrual basis because you do cash accounting at some point we're going to have to find a way to flip the land cost of goods sold to accrual. Why? Because if a business is growing like crazy you're taking a lot of cash flow from the business and putting it right back into more and more inventory and that's going to depress your seller's discretionary earnings. And your business is a multiple of seller's discretionary earnings which is net income plus add-backs equals SDE. Mark: Yeah I want to talk about this accrual basis because I'm seeing this more and more. People are hearing us, they're hearing this message, and I'm seeing more and more books delivered to us on a false accrual basis is what I would call it. So here's the problem, bookkeepers don't like to do accrual basis accounting because it's hard. It takes more work. It takes more reporting on a monthly basis. They need to dig in, see what you sold, tie that back to the cost of goods sold, and record that. What I'm seeing pretty commonly here is accountants who make a year-end adjustments for the cost of goods sold. And so what you end up seeing is cost of goods sold seems kind of flat or kind of lumpy all throughout the year and then in December all of a sudden everythings out of whack. It doesn't match up. Speaking about the monthly one of the elements that a buyer is going to evaluate when looking at your business if you're selling physical products business or even if you're selling; you can do this if you're SaaS business as well it's just a cost of sales numbers out of the cost of goods sold. One of the key metrics we want to look at is your business getting more expensive to run; in other words, if you're consistently bringing in 5 million dollars of revenue what does it cost to generate that 5 million dollars of revenue? Are your products getting more expensive? Have you had a discount on those products over time? Are there periods during the year where you have to do one or the other? If you are in SaaS business are the cost of sales going up; your commissions that you're paying out the salespeople if you're on a commission sales basis. You can't get these numbers unless you're on accrual basis accounting. And a buyer, a smart buyer, if you want to sell to a smart buyer will want to see this information to see is this trending in the right direction and if not then we need to work this into the valuation; so monthly accrual. Joe: When this false accrual practice is done it's generally done by a CPA not a bookkeeper because they're doing some adjustments for the end of the year. Although just to be clear everyone if you've got an e-commerce business with physical products you are going to file your taxes on a cash basis. But when you're looking at the value of your business we need it on an accrual basis. You should have a CPA for your taxes. You should have an e-commerce bookkeeper for your daily, monthly, quarterly profit and loss statements. You should not in my opinion or view do that work yourself anymore if it takes you three or four hours a month you're worth more than the $400, $500, or $600 a month that a really highly qualified e-commerce bookkeeper is going to charge you. Mark: Yeah and we've made this point before but I'll make it again. It all depends on how you enter the information or your bookkeeper how they enter the information into whatever accounting software you're using. If you enter the information as an accrual basis you can flip to cash with a click of a button. It's very easy to do. Joe: Very easy, yeah. Mark: If you enter your information into your books on a cash basis you can't flip it to accrual. I mean you can, you're just going to get the wrong numbers, right? The software is stupid in that way. It's going to try and it's going to calculate it but you've entered the data wrong. So if you entered it in as accrual you can file in cash, that's totally fine. But for the sake of accuracy, you should be entering it or having your bookkeeper enter it in as accrual. And ask your bookkeeper this too, when I hired our bookkeeper I asked them; I sent them an interview, a written interview and I asked them to explain what accrual accounting was. I know what it is but I wanted to see could they explain it. And I was shocked at the number of foot keepers that couldn't explain it in a clear, concise way. Joe: It's not hard guys. Just we'll move beyond this make your eye bleed accounting part of the conversation. Look up cost of goods sold accrual formula. That's all it is. It's beginning inventory plus purchases minus ending inventory on a monthly basis. That's ideal. But the point; one last point is that if you spend a million bucks a year on inventory and you're just doing adjustment or a guess we have to flip things sometimes to accrual. If you're off by 1½%, that's $15,000. If you're spending a million bucks on inventory, you're spending a lot of money; you may be doing 4 million 5 million dollars a year in revenue which probably means you're doing $750,000 in discretionary earnings. You might be at a four-time multiple at that point; four times the $15,000 that you got wrong on the inventory is $60,000 that you're not putting in your pocket in the sale of your business because you wouldn't spend $500 a month on an e-commerce bookkeeper. Or you're overcharging your buyer by that 15,000 times four because you guessed on the wrong side and things are going to fall apart or go off the rails in due diligence. So get it right, build trust, and move on. Okay, so first thing we need is a clean professionally done profit and loss statement with a monthly view. We're going to import that into the Quiet Light Brokerage import system. We're going to normalize the P&L. If you've ever looked at our listings folks you can see they look pretty much the same; our profit and loss statements. We do that because we see them in every shape, size, quantity, format, PDF, Excel. I mean it's crazy I'm surprised somebody hasn't mailed in a napkin at one point or another to Quiet Light. Mark: I had a notepad document once on a 20 million-plus business. Joe: We don't want our buyers to see that so we import it. We have an importing process where we're going to pull it in and we're going to analyze the key metrics; the financial key metrics that buyers over the last 14 years have told us this is what we look at. They're looking at top-line revenue trends. They're looking at gross profit, trends, shrinking or growing, and then they're looking at advertising cost as a percentage of total revenue and how it's trending. As Mark said earlier you could be spending a lot of money on advertising in the last six months to drive top-line revenue or the reverse and it all weaves together in a web, right? I've had a listing for sale last year and the seller said I handed my advertising off to a VA in late spring last year and I let him run it and five months in I realize things got out of hand and I pulled it back and took it over myself. We do a recorded interview just like we're doing right now on Zoom. We do it on video, we do it on audio, that's part of the package when a business is for sale. And that question may come up then it also may come up in the written client interview and then guess what it all weaves into the profit and loss statements and the financial key metrics when then you can go and look at the advertising trends going yeah look at that Joe was right in July, and August and September the numbers were up and advertising was 17% instead of the normalized 12% that it's been for the last three years. So you can see those different types of things. I had a situation just last week where I was looking at a profit loss statement where the ad spend went through the roof in December but revenue went down. That tells a story that he's struggling against competition and it's not really working out. He's spending a lot more money but sales are going down and lo and behold January and February are down as well. The numbers tell a story so the first thing we've got to get are the numbers, right Mark? Mark: Yeah. And I'm going to share something here Joe that I think was last week or maybe the week before, you actually did a valuation on Quiet Light brokerage. Joe: I did. Mark: Which was done not because we're looking for a buyer although if somebody wants to offer us 30 million dollars let's have a conversation. More importantly you wanted to look for areas of wasteful spending on our part and also key trends for the business as well. So let's think about this in terms of not selling our business, let's think about this in terms of business owners who want to run their business efficiently. Let's say you take the last three years' worth of your P&Ls and they're done on a true accrual basis and you take a look and you see that your gross profit margins have gone from 60% and they're dropping down to 52%. Now you might know why that's happening, you might know what's going on there but you can also identify that as a trend that if you were to correct that trend it's going to help the business. I worked with a client; I'm actually in the middle of doing a valuation for them and they keyed in on this on their own. They were very proud of this. They said look our gross profit margins are 42% right now but what we did over the course of the past year our revenue is down because of a very explainable reason but what we did is we found a product line. We found a method here to increase our gross margins from 42% upwards to 54%, 55%. We were able to test this on a singular product and it worked well and we plan to expand this. Well look what happened by looking at their margins and understanding the margins and understanding that's an area of opportunity they've uncovered a huge avenue to growth which is replicable and from a valuation standpoint it's great but from a business ownership standpoint, it's even better for them because now they can charge a charge more, pay less. Who doesn't want that, right? So let's exercise; again you asked why should we do a valuation beyond being prepared to sell should that they arise? It's a valuable exercise to do as business owners. Joe: I got an email the other day and it was from somebody named Anthony; let's leave it at that. And he wrote Joe this is really, really insightful. I had certain financial goals in the business and now I realize I'm that much closer to them than I ever was. This is making it so much more exciting to run my business every day which is exactly what it truly is. In that situation we determined, he determined; he came to the table with they've decided to charge shipping on items over a certain dollar value and that was going to add their estimate was $180,000 in additional discretionary earnings over a 12 month period. And then they had renegotiated cost of goods sold, they were going to save about $2 a unit and that was going to add $200,000 in total discretionary earnings over the next 12 months. That's $380,000 right there and with another $400,000 now they're at $680,000 they expect to be adding 2020. It's getting that much closer to their exit goal and it just defogs their window put your high beams on you can really see that much better when you're running your business it makes it that much more exciting. A lot of the things that we do talk about beyond the financials, Mark; it's not just about the numbers folks, it really starts with them. It's funny that it starts with them but that's pillar number four, documentation. Let's talk about the other three pillars briefly, Mark. Go ahead and tell me what the other three are. Mark: Risk, growth, transferability. Joe: It took me a while to remember what all four those are and I'm going to hold this up everybody; anybody that's on YouTube. I still have this on my desk after eight years. It says what they all are right there. Mark: I didn't make it memorable enough. Joe: Risk, growth, transferability, and documentation. Mark: How are you as a student in school? I'm just curious. Joe: Oh I fell asleep in accounting class I tell that story all the time. And the bottom part of that; oh look at that I forgot to turn my phone off you're hearing my Twitter. Mark: I heard a bird. Joe: The bottom part of that note there was that our business is relational, not transactional. I need reminders every day. Anyway, risk, growth, transferability, and documentation; we've talked about number four, risk. I've got a business that should be closing in the next few days and 70% of their revenue is from one SKU. What is that called? Mark: That's product concentration or a single point of failure. Joe: Or a hero SKU or a bad idea or a unicorn; all sorts of trouble. I had a conversation with somebody; a couple three years ago… Mark: Bad idea. Joe: Actually it's a bad idea. Mark: It's not a bad idea if it's sustainable just to be clear but yeah I get where you're going. Joe: Well here's the sustainable part, so there was a gentleman that I was working on a valuation for and he had one SKU that generated 90% of his revenue. And I'm like this is a bad idea. He's like well it's a lot less work Joe, it's very defensible, look at our reviews. I mean he had me convinced that it was actually a good idea. And then guess what happened? Facebook changed an algorithm and they're their ads that were working with no longer allowed and they never recovered. Their business was worth two million dollars one month and the next month it was worth like one maybe; two million, 50% cut just like that and I haven't heard from him so I'm sure it's gotten worse and worse and worse. It's a single point of failure. It's a hero SKU. It's a risk. So, therefore, buyers are going to decrease the value when it comes to the valuation. We're going to do it for you and we're going to tell you what buyers think but it's a decimal point or two or three. So instead of at a 3.2 multiple; I'm going to do some math for everybody, simple numbers at 3.2 if you've got $100,000 in discretionary earning you're at 320,000 in terms of list price. Two-tenths of a decimal point off because of a risk point you go from 320 down to 300 or 300 down to 280. It changes that quickly because of a single point of failure or because of risk in disregard. So that's part of the risk, it's the hero SKU; things of that nature. But there's also age, there are trends, right? So generally we want to have a business that's about 24 months old at a minimum. We sold them for less. There are exceptions to every single rule we talked about here. But 24 months is when buyers start to have confidence and they don't discount the value of the business because of age. The other thing to talk about is the trends, Mark, right? I just had a valuation call last night with somebody I've been talking to for six months. And I can't seem to get updated financials on a monthly basis. That's the challenge. And finally, I get them and we have a conversation. We're recording this on March 3rd. I don't have January and February's numbers. I finally have Q4 and top-line revenues down 25%, bottom line discretionary earnings down 30%. So the value of that business just went from three-point something based upon the numbers down to easily 2.5 on the top side. So it's risk because it's trending down and somebody has to jump in and fix that downward trend, right? Mark: Mm-hmm that's right; yeah, absolutely. And one thing with these downward trends you talked about how quickly the discount, just an observation multiples go down much more easily than they go up. It's hard to prop the value and that multiple upwards but people would discount much more aggressively when they start to see problems such as the concentration or as you said the bad idea. Joe: So it is a bad idea when somebody calls and says hey I'd like to sell, I'd say hey you really can't nobody else will buy it. Bad idea. So we touch risk, we touched on growth; these are the first two, let's talk about the transferability of the business. What are the key components to this pillar? Mark: Yeah, the transferability; the easiest way in my world to think about this is just can somebody step into your shoes today and run the business without having a significant decline. Or maybe another way to think about it would be what's the learning curve of the business, or do you have documentation in place that will allow people to be replaced if needed? The transferability is just that and it can encompass a number of things first of all that affects all businesses would be procedures. The procedures that you have within your company to run it on a day to day basis; how do you handle returns if you have that sort of business, what are some common customer complaints or concerns or questions and how do you handle those; do you have a process set up for that. If you're an inventory-based business what is your inventory ordering process and your forecasting process? That's something that should be in a standard operating procedure. So there's all sorts of SOPs. Outside of those elements, transferability can come into your customer acquisition process and I brought this example up before during this call. If you're a doctor and your name is all over the website for your great athlete's foot cure now you've set up a barrier to transferability because you're selling off your own personal reputation. And unless you're willing to give your name and reputation to somebody else which most people aren't and understandably so you need to get that off there and no longer be the key method for customer acquisition. And the last thing would be licensing issues or other requirements to run your business. We've seen this before. Joe you had a valuation I remember this clear as day at Rhodium Weekend when they were doing live valuations up onstage and somebody came with a business we were supposed to be working quiet with other advisors, everyone was going to do valuations so we could see what it looked like live on stage and what was the result; it was an e-commerce business, what was the result of that valuation? Joe: It wasn't transferrable because they were sourcing product from the old; it was the old school, they were required to have a retail space so the business was going to be very, very hard to transfer. And I want to comment on that. Mark: It used to very common where wholesalers would require that you have a brick and mortar store because a lot of the legacy brick and mortar stores were telling their suppliers don't let these internet people come in and just start selling this and so they would require that storefront but it still exists out there. The other issues that I've seen with these licensing issues would be not only the storefront issue but maybe if you actually have to have a license to run the business. And you see this like; we had this with somebody that was selling high-end hair products. And you think well, what's the problem there? Well in order to sell these hair products you need to have a cosmetology license. And so that's a transferability issue. It cuts both ways though. Transferability when it comes to licensing and then these hurdles does set you up with some defense ability that can actually help your risk profile be lowered; anytime that there's a hurdle to jump over a business if you jump over it you're leaving some of your competitors on the other side of that hurdle, so that's a good thing. But the element that we started off with the SOPs and the documentation of your procedures, it's something that everybody should be able to do and should have in place. What are your common procedures, how do you do it, let's make it easy? I know you have something to say here on this, the last thing that I would recommend people do and I actually just did this with Quiet Light Brokerage for your sake and for other people within the company, diagram your business. Write out everybody who works for your business. Write it out; you can draw it if you like to draw, you can use a graphing software. I used Lucid Chart; very easy to use Lucid Chart for this or just write it out and see who has what roles within your business and how does that look. I'll tell you what it's an eye-opening experience because what you find especially in small businesses is you have people who wear multiple hats. You might find some crossover there as well. So that's where I would put transferability. Joe: Too many people are focused on the top line and very proud of the total revenues that they're doing. But ultimately we're running these businesses to make money and to be profitable and we can help you hone in on that profitability and what your business is truly worth. So we've touched on what we do when we import and normalize a P&L and look at financial key metrics. We've touched on the four pillars which are risk, growth, transferability, and documentation. Within each pillar, there's five to six different points that we touched on in a valuation process and we really get to know this invisible; I call it a fifth pillar. Mark corrects me every time. You don't need to Mark, people know this. The person behind the business; the trust and credibility that they have is that invisible fifth pillar. It's the mortar holding it all together. Are you a good human? Do people trust you? Do people like you? Believe it or not, if you are people are going to pay more for your business. You do make a difference in the overall value of your business. So we do all of these things and then we create a profit and loss statement with a detailed add-backs schedule. We go through that with you and we firm up your seller's discretionary earnings and apply a multiple range to it. This is where it gets into the weeds and we won't do it today on this podcast. I'm actually going to go ahead and record a podcast following this one on the three levels of add-backs. There are six different points to each level and it's very eye-opening. A lot of people don't understand the importance of detailing the add-backs. A few folks are like why do I need a broker for I'm just going to sell to this consumer group that's buying up FBA businesses. You need to understand the add-back schedules so that if you choose to sell directly to them you're getting maximum value for your business or even better the real value for your business; not maximum, the real value. It's okay, you can choose to sell to whomever you want however you want but make sure you're getting your own numbers right and that's what I'm going to share on the next podcast. Mark: Fantastic. Joe: Okay, one more final thing. Mark: I was going to say we're getting close to time here. People are like my drive is done. I'm at the office. Joe: We are. You're so eloquent Mark with your words and your e-mails and all this. I say this all the time and people hear you speak. You speak very, very well so why don't you do one final wrap up on why you think someone should have a business evaluation done through Quiet Light Brokerage and how it's going to help them in the future and then I'll give my two cents as well. Mark: Flattery is not going to get you anywhere Joe. Joe: Tell them what I want you to tell them. Mark: Well that I don't exactly know, I'll tell them what I think. So the question is why should people get a valuation done to kind of wrap this up. Your business is most likely your most valuable asset and if it isn't yet hopefully it will be someday and you should know what the value of it is. More importantly, you should understand what drives the value of your business and also what's holding it back. My favorite part of evaluation when I'm doing one; and actually I've got a call here in seven minutes to do a valuation, it's going to be coming up soon, somebody is taking us up on this. My favorite part of a valuation isn't telling somebody what their business is worth right now because that's usually somewhat predictable. It's being able to tell them what I love about this business and what buyers are going to salivate over is fill in the blank, and this part you've done a great job here, the areas where you're going to have some friction in your sale and it's going to cause a discount on the business are these elements. Now what I'm doing there is I'm really giving some insight into where the business is today but I'm also laying out a roadmap for everybody that I'm doing that for to say if you want to grow the value of this asset work on these elements and you know what if there's an element of your business that's really good double down on it. One of the areas that we've talked about in the past is this pillar of growth, we want them to have lots of growth potential for the business; lots of growth prospects for that business and they need to be real. However, if you have easy obvious growth within your business take advantage of it because I would rather multiply a larger earnings number and get that going up because it's a lot easier to grow your value that way. Doing a valuation will help identify those aspects of your business; where is it valuable right now, what's holding it back, and what's the plan to be able to make it more valuable. You don't have to sell the business. If you do these things you will have a business that is more valuable and you're going to gain insights that you never really thought about. I will challenge everybody if you don't do anything else on this call we've talked a lot about finances so I'm going to change it up. Diagram your business and then feel free to email me if you thought it was a complete waste of time. Joe: Or you can go at Mark@QuietLightBrokerage.com. Mark: Tell me it's a complete waste of time. Joe: Mark with a K. Mark: Mark with a K. The only way it would be a complete waste of time is if you have like two people in your company. But then you know what? Joe: Send him an email. Mark: Yeah, right. But then if you're going to do that diagram out the other people that are supporting you. Your contractors, the vendors, the people that are key for your business to run and take a look at that and you might not gain a whole lot of new insights but you're going to see your business in a way that you've never seen it before. Joe: What you're hearing here from Mark is that we're here to help. We're sharing information with you and giving you tools to make a better decision for your business and for the future when you are ready. If you are ever ready to sell. In no way shape or form are we ever here to talk you into anything. We're going to share the information with you. And that was the reason I chose Quiet Light Brokerage back in 2010 to sell my own business. I talked to three different firms. Two were trying to get me to sign a contract. The third was giving me helpful information to build a more valuable business to sell when I was ready to sell. And that conversation was with Mark. Lastly, don't be embarrassed by the size of your business. Sometimes we'll go to Mastermind groups and someone will; I can tell they're uncomfortable talking to us because they're only doing $100,000 in profit. Are you kidding me? You're an entrepreneur, you've built your own business, you're doing $100,000 in profit which is 40% higher than the national average; I don't know the numbers, I'm going to get a correction on that Joe@QuietLightBrokerage.com. It's huge compared to the national average. Don't ever be embarrassed by the size of your business. The smallest one we sold in 2019 was $28,000. Yes, it was a pocket deal because Brad had a larger listing and the gentleman had two smaller sites he wanted to sell off. They're all shapes and sizes. Our average transaction size in 2019 was 1.1 million. It grows every single year but we go through all different sizes. We want to help you get from that hundred thousand dollar valuation to a million-dollar valuation. We've had clients where they first sold their business at 7,000 then 20,000 then 220,000 and now nine million and the next exit that that particular individual has set is 100 million. We want you guys to achieve your goals and we're going to help you along the way. But we're not going to talk you into a single thing. So reach out go to the website. It's the valuation form or sell form I think it is or it shoot us an email at inquiries@QuietLightBrokerage.com and we'll hook you up with one of the qualified advisors here who are all entrepreneurs themselves. Links and Resources: Quiet Light Brokerage

On this special episode with Russell’s first ever guest interview, we hear from Joe Marfoglio about the best things to do to grow your YouTube channel. Here are some of the informative things you’ll hear in this episode: Find out why thumbnails are so important to how many people watch your videos. Hear why Russell’s long intro on Funnel Hacker TV cost him views. And find out what tool you can use to not only track your own videos, but also the videos of your competitors. So listen here to find out Joe Marfoglio’s best tips to grow viewership on your YouTube channel. ---Transcript--- What’s up everybody? This is Russell Brunson, welcome back to the Marketing Secrets show. I hope you guys are excited for today. We have a special guest, and I’ve rarely, if ever, brought on a special guest to the show. But as we are getting closer and closer to the Traffic Secrets launch, I thought it would be fun to bring on Joe Marfoglio, who is the guy on our team who does all of our YouTube stuff. So we’re calling these tails of a funnel hacker, and Joe’s episode is going to be walking you guys through some of the stuff that we’re doing to grow our YouTube channel, and are following some things that didn’t make sense to me, like cutting out our amazingly designed intros and making thumbnails that look goofy because they increase viewership and a whole bunch of other stuff. He literally took one of our videos that had less than 1000 views, edited a couple of things and boosted it to over 100,000 views with no ads spent. So these are the kind of things he’ll be talking about on today’s episode. So I’m going to queue up the theme song, and when we come back you guys will have a chance to meet my friend Joe Marfoglio. Joe Marfoglio, Joe how are you doing, man? Joe: What’s happening man? Hey, glad to be here. Thank you for that awesome intro. Russell: Hey man, this is the first time we’ve done a live interview on this show before, which is really exciting. Very exciting. And I love you have your Funnel Hackers shirt on, and all your Two Comma Club awards in the back. Joe: That’s it man. I’m just waiting for the Two Comma Club X to come in the mail to kind of even out the set, it’s going to be awesome. Russell: Joe just won one last week, you guys, at Funnel Hacking Live he got one, which is pretty cool. Alright, so obviously we don’t have a ton of time, but I’ve got a lot of questions for you. So inside of the Traffic Secrets book, there’s a whole chapter on YouTube traffic. And most of it I pulled from you, because you are the guy who on our team is doing all of our YouTube, doing all this stuff, and you’ve done such an amazing job. So most of the things are there from you. So this is kind of to tease people a little bit about what’s happening inside the book, but also to just get them to know you and understand some more about YouTube. So why is YouTube, do you think, different than all the other platforms that are out there? You know, we’ve got Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, TikTok, all this stuff, why YouTube, why are you so passionate about YouTube? Joe: You know, so yeah you have Facebook, Instagram, and I see a lot of people, it’s very easy, it’s sometimes easier for them to build a big following on Facebook or Instagram, they kind of go to YouTube and they struggle a little bit. And it’s because YouTube isn’t just a social media platform, it is a social media platform, but it’s also a search engine where people are searching for a certain, you know, certain topics. Maybe they’re searching how to do something. You know, so what you have to do with YouTube is not only put up content that’s engaging that people want to watch that has value, but you also have to add kind of a story element to it. And the one thing that you don’t want to do, and I see people do this, is kind of repurpose your content. Like say you have content you put on Facebook, and then Instagram or a podcast and you like, you know, and you distribute to all these different channels. If you put it on YouTube, a lot of times you find that it’s not going to get that much traction. And think about YouTube like this, when you watch YouTube yourself, if you guys are out there and you’re watching YouTube, why do you subscribe to a certain channel? If you’re going to subscribe, maybe they’re showing you how to make money online, or how to grow your instagram, but there’s a ton of videos on there that talk about how to grow your instagram channel, but it’s like, what makes you subscribe and want to watch somebody? It’s going to be their personality, it’s going to be the way they engage with you. And it’s going to be the way the content comes across. So what I would say for YouTube, the difference is, is treat YouTube like it’s it’s own thing. Make videos just for YouTube and try to approach it not as a marketer, but as a creator. Not that you’re going to sell anything but that you’re going to build your audience and your following. Russell: Yeah, one of my favorite things about YouTube too, and I talk about this in the book a little bit, every social platform, like let’s say you do a Facebook live, like we’re doing right now, it’s happening and then it’ll drop, it’ll be  here for the next couple of days, then it will drop down the newsfeed, and then eventually just disappears and nobody will ever see it again. Whereas YouTube is the only platform where you create something and then it grows over time, because it’s not just social, it’s social and a search. And that’s why it’s so, it’s different because you create something and if you create it the right way, then it sits there and it grows throughout time, as opposed to everything else, which seems to diminish over time. So it gives, at least someone for me, who’s creating stuff, it gives me more incentive to create stuff that’s nice because it’ll last beyond the moment. Whereas Facebook live is there for a moment, and then it’s gone. Whereas YouTube it can last for forever. I mean, like we talked about earlier, the Overcome Pornography videos, overcoming pornography addiction, they still get hundreds and hundreds of views every single month, and we don’t even sell the product anymore, which is probably sad because you were an affiliate making money when it was there. Joe: No, yeah that video, I think I sent you a screen shot when you were doing the book, and it has hundreds of clicks on there, and what it does is the content builds on each other. So you put a video out three years ago, and if you keep putting content out, you’re going to keep getting leads, you’re going to keep getting people subscribing and watching your stuff, and yeah, it doesn’t disappear, it just builds on top of each other. Russell: Okay, I want to ask another question, this is off the questions that you sent me as pre-questions, because I’m excited about this one, I hope that’s okay. I’m going to put you on the spot a little bit. I think a lot of times people think YouTube strategies like, ‘Okay, I gotta make the most perfect video in the world.” And you look at companies like Dollar Shave club for example, where they made this video, and it goes crazy viral and then builds this huge company up, and he sells to whoever he sold for, for like a billion dollars. So we’re like, ‘Okay, I’ve got to make the perfect YouTube video.” And people stress about it and because of that, they never actually make something at all. Versus like, you told me, in the book we share the example, but you talked about the strategy of like Gillette or other things like that. Will you talk about that? Because I feel like that’s a strategy that more people like me could actually do. Not I gotta make the perfect video, instead looking at it a little differently. Will you talk about how Gillette did their strategy and how we can use that as well? Joe: Yeah, so here’s the thing. When you guys are starting your YouTube channel, think of it like in, the first thing you want to do is really go deep in your niche, whatever you’re doing. So for example, Gillette, what they did was they didn’t go out there and say, well, they did. They tried to make a viral video like Dollar Shave Club, and it flopped. So what they did was, they said, “Listen, we want to dominate for the keyword how to shave.” Because the people that watch how to shave videos buy our product. So they did how to shave your head, how to shave your back, how to shave your legs. They did all these videos that got hundreds of thousands and millions of views, and they were very targeted to their subscribers. So the thing I would tell people is, figure out what your niche is, figure out what you’re going to go after and go deep in that niche. Kind of like the way you explain the whole blue ocean strategy in Expert Secrets. Because, the one thing you don’t want to do is go and look at someone who has a million subscribers and follow what they do. So say you’re doing, because they’ve already been established, they already have a huge audience. So say you’re doing Amazon, what you want to do is go through Amazon and say, okay, make videos on Amazon, on Amazon FBA, on Amazon Drop Shipping, on Amazon Affiliate. And then go through and hit, every time, anything that someone is searching for Amazon, you want to make a video on. And it doesn’t have to be a perfect video, like you said. It just has to be engaging enough to get retention, but it doesn’t have to be this high production video. But what you don’t want to do, is you don’t want to make a video on Amazon, then make a video on how to make money online, then make a video on procrastination, then make a video on the Corona Virus. If you want it to, if you’re just starting, you want to create this traffic lane that like YouTube knows, “Okay, when Joe puts a video out, it’s going to be on Amazon.” And then they’ll start showing your video to more and more people that search like Amazon stuff, and then you can expand out from there. Russell: Very cool. Yeah, actually go look at Gillette’s. It’s funny, after you told me that story I went and looked in there and you see all the, there’s stuff that I never would have dreamt people are looking to shave. So, alright, there you go. There’s a video for that now too, which is awesome. It’s very cool. Okay, my next question for you is when someone creates, let’s say they’re creating videos and posting them on YouTube and they’re not getting any traction, they’re not getting a lot of views, what would be the best way for someone to look at that, and be like, “Okay, here’s how I tweak it or optimize it to get people to actually start watching my videos.” Joe: That’s a great question because I see this all the time. I see people posting their videos up there and they’re getting no views and they just keep posting the same videos. So here’s the thing, think of it like this, think of your YouTube channel, say you have a store, a brick and mortar store, think of your YouTube channel as, that’s your storefront. The videos that you create are your product, and the people that view it and subscribe are your customers, right, they’re raising their hand and saying, “I want that product.” If you’re putting videos out, and no one is watching them or subscribes, or very little people are watching or subscribing, you change up the way you make your videos, there’s something wrong with the way you’re making your videos. Don’t batch out your videos and just throw them out there. You have to see what videos are engaging. So what I would say is, the first thing I would start out is like I said, find your set of keywords, your content bucket. Start putting those videos out, see which videos start getting some traction, and then double down on those keywords. The other thing you want to do is constantly be testing your thumbnails. The two most important thing about your video is going to be your thumbnail and your attention. You get the best video in the world, but if your thumbnail stinks and your title doesn’t have a hook, people aren’t going to click on it. So the thumbnail is, that’s like the visual hook, that’s going to stop people from scrolling and saying, “What’s happening here?” So big faces, little bit of text, your title has your keyword in it, but it also has your hook. And then the video, the first 30 seconds to the minute is the most important part to your video. Because that’s where you want to hook people, and that’s where you want to keep at least 80% retention, and you want at least 50% retention all the way to the end. If you’re not getting that, the best thing to do is after you shoot your video, putting call outs, put in some b-roll, kind of do some pattern interrupts, to keep people visually engaged with your video. Because unlike say a podcast, when people are watching on YouTube, if you’re not visually engaging them, they’re going to look somewhere else. Russell: There’s like a hundred different options for them to click on around the video of like, uh, distraction. Joe: Right. A good example of this is on your channel, you had a video up on sales funnels and you know, you posted it a few years ago, it got a couple of thousand views, we took that same video, just added call outs and b-roll, I think that new video has 150,000 views. Russell: Wow. Joe: And the simple thing is, is even though it’s amazing information, it doesn’t matter who it is, if people aren’t visually stimulated, they’re going to go off. Russell: Yeah, interesting. A couple of things that I learned from you that were crazy is like the thumbnail one, like you said. We used to make these beautifully designed thumbnails, and then the click through rate wasn’t very high and then you made these, no offense, but these ones I’m like, “Ah!” and then it’s like 5x more click throughs. I’m like, ‘Oh, crap.” And it was interesting at Funnel Hacking Live, Prince Ea talked about that, he said when you do a shoot most people do the video and then they try to find a still to make the thing. He’s like, no, you bring professional photographers. That’s the most important part, the thumbnail. He says they’ll spend more time trying to get the thumbnail sometimes, than the entire video as a whole. So I think that’s one big thing. The second thing that I learned from you that was interesting, and we did 100+ episodes of our Funnel Hacker TV show, and I loved it, they were so much fun, but we never got tons of views. I was like, “Why are people not loving this?” and when you started looking at our stats, you’re like, “Well, the reason why is people watch the first little bit, then you have a 30 second cool intro that was amazing. It was the most amazing intro of all time. Any creator would be so proud of this amazing intro. And then it got into the content.” And you showed me like, “Here they are hooked and then the intro starts and then people at the end that make it through that stay gone.” And you went from like, “Take a 30 second intro and make a one and a half second intro.” I was like, “But it’s like, it’s so, on a tv show they have a huge intro and it’s amazing.” And you’re like, “They’re not watching TV, they’re sitting here with YouTube with a thousand things around them, distracting them. You’ve got to be focused and get to the point quick and engage them and keep them hooked.” So yeah, things like that, that I think creators like me are like, ‘Oh, look at my intro, it is so long.” And that’s not the right move. Joe: Yeah, exactly like, the best kind of format is like a 15 second hook, 4 to 5 second branded intro, 10-15 seconds who you are, your content and then a call to action at the end. Russell: So cool. Oh man. Well Joe, I appreciate you coming on man, this was fun, being my first live interview. I’m not the best interviewer, but you were a great guest and shared some super actionable, and important things. And I think what I would recommend, you know we’re funnel hackers here, so we’re good at looking and modeling what people are doing. So go look at our channel, and look at the videos that get a lot of views and ones that don’t get very many. And Joe’s in it always optimizing stuff and figuring things out, but half of this whole game is looking at what’s working and then be like, why is that working? That’s what I’m doing, that’s what you’re doing, we’re always doing that in all aspects. Why is that working, what was the reason? And then trying and testing and making little tweaks and changes. I would love if you shared one last thing, just because I remember the first time there was a plugin in Chrome, I think it was Chrome, that you told me to download, and I downloaded this 3 or 4 years ago, and now every time I go to YouTube I see all the stats and it’s so much fun to see all that stuff, and I think most people don’t even know that there’s stuff, tools like this available, to give you all the analytics and all the detail on the video. I want to talk about any of the tools like that, that you use right now that people can use as well. Joe: Um, yeah. So one of the ones is VidIQ, it’s the one I told you about, which is I love it because I do SEO. So the data in there is amazing. Everyone should get it. They have, the best part about it, you can put your competitors in there, you can see what they’re doing, you can see what videos are trending for them. So that’s a great video. Another one I think is Two Buddy, which is, you know, it’s okay. But My preference is definitely VidIQ, just because it has all that data. Especially if you’re constantly testing and looking at stuff. Russell: It’s great that it’ll show you your competitors videos. Like this video got added x amount of people to subscribe to their channel because of this video. And this is how many views it got. How many it’s getting per day, and all the… You’re just like, “How are they telling me all this stuff? This is amazing.” It shows you all the stuff that, and then you can reverse engineer it from there. As a funnel hacker that’s what we’re looking, how do we reverse engineer things? And this gives you like, it’s basically like, “Here’s what happening with the video.” And from there you can reverse engineer like, “Cool, now I know what I need to do. What do I need to create? How do I make something better? How do I make something that’s going to beat that one out so I get all those views coming to mine instead?” and stuff like that. Joe: Yeah. Russell: Awesome man. Well, thanks Joe. I appreciate you coming and being on the show. Everyone, if you had a good time with Joe, comment down below and say, “Thank you, Joe. We love you.” He’s been such a huge you know, support for me for the last, almost ten years. It’s been almost ten years, hasn’t it? Since we first met? Joe: Yeah, I think so. 2012, I think. Russell: That’s crazy. So a long time, and a huge help for us inside of Clickfunnels, growing our YouTube Channel and helping us get the message out to more people. So grateful for you man, thanks for being on the show. And everyone, please comment down below and tell Joe thank you for spending time with us today. Joe: Alright, thanks guys. Russell: Thanks man. Joe: Thanks Russell. We’ll talk to you later. Russell: Alright, see you man.

One year ago we listed a business that created a massive amount of activity, garnering ten offers, many above asking price. As part of our incredible exit series, today we welcome a seller who has had some time to reflect on all the things he did right in his sale and share what he has been up to since. Paul Anderson started his career as an accountant, taking the safe path and spending ten years in corporate America. An increasing lack of passion led him to start to build his own lifeboat. He avidly studied Amazon FBA and learned by following experts in the e-commerce space. Although his first launch failed he carried on, honing his awareness of product opportunities out there and eventually he hit it big. Today Paul delves into the building of the business, the pillars of his success, and the components of his path to becoming an exitpreneur. Episode Highlights: Paul's first product's failure to launch and what he learned. How he sourced the second product and what happened in the last quarter of 2016. Funding subsequent stock and the challenges of inventory planning. How Paul stands on all four pillars of a successfully built business as well as that invisible fifth pillar. The scheduling and nitty gritty of the sale process. How the final buyer was chosen and the deciding factors for Paul. Why the highest bidder does not always win. The toughest challenges of running the business. Why Paul decided to sell. What he has been doing since the sale. Tips for building a successful content website. Transcription: Mark: So almost one year ago to the date of the recording of this episode of the podcast I was on a car ride with Joe; you Joe from where was it? It was from Dallas down to Houston and then Houston back up to Dallas. We were meeting with a good friend of ours that lived in Houston and while we were in that car ride you had launched a new listing that went absolutely berserk. And I've referenced this; I think we've actually talked about this on the podcast a few times, I've referenced this deal because it was one of these outlier deals that seem to check every single box and the result was just a massive amount of requests for phone calls and I believe 10 offers within a very short amount of time. And it's been a year since that launched and obviously, the deal closed which we're super happy about but now you finally get to have the seller on the podcast talking about all the things that he did right. Joe: Yeah it's a great time because it's a year out so he gets to look back. And over the years of doing this podcast the people listening have heard us talk about the four pillars; risk, growth, transferability, and documentation and someone might go yeah ok whatever, the reality is that they matter. Paul Anderson sold his business; 10 offers, he checked off every one of these pillars and the six little subtitles under each pillar and then the fifth one which I know Mark there's no fifth pillar, but the fifth one is the man or person or entrepreneur behind the business. Paul being a former CPA turned entrepreneur who outsourced his bookkeeping to a bookkeeper is just a super likable guy, stay at home dad, buttoned up in so many different ways. The end result is I had to clear his schedule; he basically had three conference calls with highly qualified buyers for five days in a row. He was exhausted from it because each one was… Joe: So you had 15 conference calls then. Paul: 15 conference calls. Joe: And I remember again we were in the car going back up to Dallas and you were on the phone pretty much constantly telling people okay let me see if I can arrange a time for you. So there was a lot more requests for conference calls on this deal. Paul: A lot more requests and we say we had 10 offers but finally a few people dropped out because they just didn't want to compete because they knew what it is going to be. And the funny thing is people get concerned about that and we always say right up front look don't get caught up in the hype of multiple offers, don't go beyond your comfort level, offer-wise. We want you to make an offer that works for you and hopefully will work for the seller as well because we want it to go all the way from letter of intent through to due diligence and that's exactly what we wound up with. And oddly enough Paul did not choose as we always say they don't necessarily choose the highest price. He didn't do that. He picked the offer that was best for him and I think it was somewhere $150,000 lower than the highest price. So we talked about a little bit of that process, what makes a good seller, a good buyer, and then we talked about what he's doing today which is really interesting as well so hopefully, everybody will enjoy this podcast. Joe: Absolutely. Paul: Let's go to it. Joe: Hey folks. Joe Valley here from the Quiet Light Podcast and today I have an Incredible Exits client on the phone with me. It's Paul Anderson. We sold Paul's business I think; when was it, Paul? Paul: March of last year, so a little under a year ago. Joe: Spring of 2019; so a little under a year ago. So we're going to talk about Paul's exit. We're going to talk about what Paul went through when he built the business, sold the business after he sold the business, and what he's doing now so we're going to get the full picture. Paul welcome to the Quiet Light Podcast. Paul: Thanks Joe, good to be here. Good to talk to you. Joe: So for the folks listening why don't you give a little bit of background on your professional pedigree and your entrepreneurial journey? Paul: Yeah, sure. So I actually studied accounting and followed that path. I was kind of one of those people that never really knew what I wanted to do. Like some people I think they're just like hey I want to be a TV news reporter or a journalist, I never really had that strong thing tapped me on the shoulder that said this is what you should do so I took a pretty safe practical path. I went into accounting and got my CPA. I spent about 10 years working in corporate America doing accounting and finance jobs and didn't really ever feel like that passion and eventually it started to kind of wear me down. I got to the point where I had to think of something else to do and try to build my own little lifeboat to escape from that because something inside me just didn't feel right anymore doing that. So that's kind of what led into starting a business. So that's in 2016. Somewhere; I don't even remember where I started to hear about Amazon FBA and I kind of consumed everything I could about it like podcasts, there's this guy Manny Coats inaudible[00:06:09.6] Helium10, he had a great podcast back then, Amazing Seller; there's all sorts of good stuff online about the model and that's kind of how it started and I started really small. We can get into it from there but that was kind of the first step, learning about it and seeing like oh I think I could do this. Joe: So you learned about it from podcasts; you didn't pay for a course or anything like that, you were absorbing free information from experts in the space. Paul: I never bought a single course it was all podcasts, Facebook groups, Reddit forums, and I was just… Joe: I love it. Paul: Yeah I can tell you about the first launch which was a total fail but that was like my training course like the very first launch because I learned. Joe: Failure is a great lesson. How much money did you pull together to launch the business and were you working at that point in the CPA business? Paul: Yeah I was still working. It was 2016, I put $5,000 in to do; most of it was an inventory buy so I was on Alibaba like at night trying to find my suppliers talking with China and I put in probably about 5,000 bucks to start on my first product. Joe: Okay. And you just mentioned Helium10; did you use Helium10 to help you find that first product? Paul: Yes. So it's funny like almost all the products I launched I've kind of like encountered in the real world somewhere and the product that turned out to be my big business was I kind of got onto it from a discussion with my parents. We're just having a casual discussion like you would have many times a day and they mentioned this particular thing and I would always in my iPhone put down; anything that seemed interesting I would just like log it in there and then I come back to it. So I had a list of 20 to 30 things going and I went back and started doing some research. I actually was using Jungle Scout back then and I switched over to Helium10 for everything now. Joe: Oh they're both great products; both of them. Manny and Greg have both been on the podcast; great guys. Paul: Yeah, for sure. So I kind of punched it in there and said like oh this looks like; the numbers look good and that's kind of how it started but it really was that conversation being like; I think if there's a lesson there it's being aware, we have so many kinds of filters and blinders on like if you really put yourself in the headspace of looking for opportunities you'd be surprised how many little things you read online or you hear about through friends like this is really popular; there's just all sorts of those little things that pop up that could turn out to be big businesses. Joe: So pay attention to your surroundings; the stuff that you use every day, emerging products in categories and niches and try to pay attention to and think is there an opportunity? Did you use any tools to see if a lot of people were selling in that particular category and that particular product? Paul: I mean Jungle Scout helps with that but mainly you can just go on and kind of assess like if page one everyone's got a thousand reviews and they're really well-known brands or something that's probably going to be a tough place to break into. Joe: Tough barrier; okay. So tell us about your first test, it was an epic fail? Paul: Yeah, so I was really pumped and thought like here it is, this is going to be like my ticket out of full-time work and it's going to be amazing and it was actually an accessory. Have you ever heard of pour-over coffee? Joe: Yeah. Paul: So that was kind of just bubbling up, seeming like oh this is really a trending product… Joe: Too much work; I never bought it because… Paul: Too much work, yeah, but there's a lot of people that are really into the craft obviously a coffee one and having some artisan experience. So I sourced these little wooden coffee stands that's basically used to make pour-over coffee. And it was kind of a cool thing but it turns out products made out of wood can crack and can break and have issues and I was not an expert at sourcing at that point in time so the long story short a lot of the products ended up cracking and breaking. And then once you start getting all these one-star reviews and returns; like my garage was full all around with carts of returned inventory and there wasn't that much demand I think. At the start, I was thinking oh you really got a niche down into this little tiny space and own that and there just wasn't quite enough demand in that space either. So I kind of learned to be a little smarter on sourcing and just to look for ways that things can go wrong inaudible[00:10:31.6] thing that's just so niche that like even if you execute and everything is great like you're going to be selling a couple of units a day. Joe: So how much money did you test and lose on that first product launch? Paul: So that was about 5,000 bucks in and I didn't take to bad a bee but I think I lost about a thousand dollars on it which isn't bad. Joe: Oh that's not bad. Paul: Yeah. Joe: Not enough to make you go away and say okay this didn't work I'm done; I'm going to go back to the corporate world. You got a taste for it and you said okay I just picked the wrong product. Paul: Exactly. And I mean I was still in the corporate world and like 5,000 bucks it's not like a lot of money at the time so it wasn't like I was; I'm like yeah whatever it doesn't matter. At that point, the stakes felt real and high. Joe: Yeah. Paul: Because it definitely was like I can see the power here on Amazon it's just like finding the right thing to really get this thing spinning. Joe: Okay. So you learned a lesson; you only lost 20% of your money but you get an excellent education from it better than any course you could have ever purchased. You went out there tried it, failed, learned, and didn't lose so much that you couldn't do it again. So you came up with another product niche and decided to go at it again? Paul: Exactly yes. So then I was actually going over to; are you familiar with the Canton Fair which is the big supplier…? Joe: Yeah. Paul: So I had a trip booked to go over there and kind of in-between going there… Joe: Just out of curiosity did you book it with a group or was it just you? Paul: Just me and my wife went over. Joe: Oh okay, because I was just talking to Athena from China Magic and they have a group of folks that go on a regular basis for those that are terrified to go alone. So you and your wife chose to book a flight to China and go to the Canton Fair alone. Paul: I loved it. It was really, really full out and I'm eager to go over there. Joe: Okay. Paul: I actually ended up finding my supplier on Alibaba before I went so I can't really say that the trip necessarily paid off in terms of like… Joe: Did you connect with him in person when you got to the Canton Fair? Paul: No because it was still too early and he was pretty far away from the Canton Fair. I think it helped me really see kind of like the culture of China and doing business with China and I think just a little savvier about how things work. So it was a great education for that and just like a lot of fun to check it out; I mean the place is just massive, like multiple football fields. Anything you want to ever source it would be out there so it was a super interesting spot. But anyway back to your second question so yes I stumbled upon this other product and started kind of the wheels turning in 2016 to source it. I got it on I think in the fall of 2016 and I remember that Q4 for Amazon or e-commerce is like the prime time and I remember just refreshing that seller app that Black Friday, Cyber Monday, like all through up until Christmas and it was just mind-blowing the sales that were coming in off this new product. Joe: What was it like your first day that you got a sale, how many sales did you have all together; do you remember? Paul: Oh I mean it started slow. The first thing was probably just two or three units. I mean it's really; it was in such a momentum game like when you have no momentum it's hard to keep momentum and then once you get this momentum going and the wheels start spinning it can blow your mind like the amount of sales that… Joe: And that actually blew our mind within the first month or in that first quarter like what did you wind up with on the biggest day within a couple of months of launching it in the Q4 of ‘16? Paul: I don't want to say maybe like $8,000 of sales there. Joe: Oh, wow. Paul: Something big like and then when you look at the profits from that it's like wow I made more money like on this one day than; and I had a pretty decent corporate job, I'm like this is crazy like the potential. So the hooks kind of got in me right there and then '16 was kind of just getting off the ground and then the next year is when the ball really started to roll. Joe: When you started to get revenue in the fourth quarter of 2016 and sales started to come in you had euphoria with the fact that you were getting that kind of revenue and making more money in one day than you made perhaps in a month in the corporate world but did you also have the fear of oh my God I'm going to run out of inventory? Paul: I did. Joe: Okay. Paul: Yeah, inventory is like not something glamorous to talk about and you don't really hear about it that much in podcasts or anything else but it's like running a physical products company doing an Amazon business like the inventory planning is so difficult because your sales can change on a dime. inaudible[00:15:20.7] your supplier 30 days early to make something and another 30 days to put them on a ship to get it over here. So you've got these difficult variables to manage that can leave you stocked out or even a little bit too much stuck so that's always a tough thing to manage. Joe: Awesome. I don't think I've ever met an Amazon seller or an e-commerce business person that's been growing rapidly that's not run out of inventory at one point or another. All right, so you started with $5,000, did a test, failed, how long between the first failed test and the second product that took off; how many months was it? Paul: That was about three months I think. Joe: Okay, and all the time you kept your day job which is fantastic. So you've got some revenue, you've got some money in the account that's transferred to your business account, at what point did you order more inventory with and did you just use that money or did you sit down and talk as a family and say okay this is a winner we need to take a home equity line of credit; how did you fund the rest of the inventory purchases? Paul: It was all really funded with profits. Joe: It was? Okay. Paul: Yeah, it was. Joe: And you didn't have to take any money out for living expenses because you had your day job so that's perfect. Paul: Yeah. If I wouldn't have my day job it would have made it much more difficult but luckily I had some steady income coming in on the day job and then I was able to just take the profits and reinvest them back in and just go from there. Joe: Fast forwarding you had an amazing 2017, an amazing 2018; strong year over year growth, like huge year over year growth. For those listening, Paul's business was listed again spring of 2019 and it's those perfect situation folks where we talk about the four pillars of a sellable business and that invisible fifth one which is the person behind the business and that's Paul. We have a 30-month-old Amazon business with an incredible brand that's growing rapidly year over year. The financials we're set up impeccably. Paul is a CPA but he did something incredible which was what? You outsourced the books to an e-commerce bookkeeper; brilliant by the way. So those of you that are out there saying oh I can do this I'm not going to pay a few hundred bucks to a bookkeeper we've got a CPA here that chose to outsource to an e-commerce bookkeeper because he can do better things than bookkeeping with his time like grow a multi-million dollar Amazon brand which is exactly what you did. Your business checks so many boxes. It was SBA eligible. You were the owner behind the business. You built trust. People believed in you. During the recorded video interview, you're the first person; and I keep asking people to do it now, you're the first person that ever sat in front of the camera, reached down picked up the product and demonstrated the product. You showed the new packaging that you had just done. It was beautiful and the end result was an overwhelming request to buy the business, conference calls where you had to clear your schedule for a week. I said Paul cancel everything, right? We had to clear it and we ended up with I think three calls with qualified buyers every day for five days. We wound up with 10 total offers. I think we were at; the top one was something like $150,000 over asking price. Paul: Yeah, I think that's right. Yeah. Joe: Yeah, and we say this all the time that it's not always the offer that comes in with the highest number, it's the right fit more than anything else. We had; of the 10 offers, I think we had maybe six that were SBA and four that were cash. You ended up choosing a cash buyer and not just because it was a cash buyer but also the person behind the business. We did video interviews between the buyer and seller. How much did that matter and how much of a difference did that make for you? Paul: The interviews mattered a ton. I mean that was the deciding factor because when I went into the process I just thought like well it's pretty simple, right? You take the highest number and the highest bidder wins but as you get into it and talk to different people it's like a huge diverse set of backgrounds that people are coming through Quiet Light looking to buy, right? Joe: Right. Paul: And some people I felt like wow I could just hand this to them and they could run with it immediately and do like as good or better a job with this than I ever could. And others are like hey I really like this person and their heart is in the right place but I feel like the transition might take a little bit longer and then what if somewhere they dropped the ball and things get sideways like I don't want that somehow to come back to me. I don't know if that's a rational way to think about it but if there was a lot of comfort like feeling this guy or these guys I feel like really got it, they get it, they know what to do, they will hit the ground running from day one so to me that mattered a whole lot. Joe: Yeah. And I think given the fact that we're in this remote world where your buyers and sellers are all over the world literally sometimes doing a video conference call for that initial call breaks the ice. You're not reading the client interview anymore, you're not just talking to somebody on the phone; you can see the whites of their eyes and anybody that wants to see Paul we're recording this both on Zoom with video and audio and it will be up on the YouTube page as well. He does not look like a buttoned-up CPA today and I was making fun of him when we first got on the call. You've always looked like that but today you know what you're a successful exitpreneur. You got the sweatshirt on, a little stubble, working from home; I love it. All right so I want to you ask a couple of things just for the audience purposes. Number one back to running the business what was the toughest challenge in running the business? Let's start with that. Go ahead. Paul: Yeah. I'd say even at the start this isn't even a tactical thing but the hardest thing was just getting the momentum going. Starting an Amazon business is not like hey I'm trying to create an electric car and beat Elon Musk but even me like I had a lot of doubts at the start like is this is going to work, am I going to lose all my money? All of these doubts kind of creep into your head so I remember really kind of struggling to pull the trigger in a way thinking like I just don't know is this supposed to be my pathway? So I think that was really hard to overcome and you just kind of keep going one foot in front of the other and once you get a little momentum it just like brings all this energy and life into you that you just feel so energized to just keep improving and add products and make your products better and make the packaging better. Getting that first momentum can feel elusive and challenging so I think that was like a big thing at the start. Joe: And you failed and then you stuck with it and then you succeeded. Paul: Yeah. And I was kind of at an inflection point like should I keep going or is this just not meant to be and then you know. Joe: This may be a dumb question but are you glad you kept going? Paul: I'm very glad. It changed my life that I kept going. I mean I'd still be sitting at a desk in corporate America right now I hadn't kept going and like we've got a three-year-old son at home like the physical time we will spend with him and then mentally my head is so much like the stress is away from me. So I was always stressed working in corporate America so it's been the biggest blessing ever to go out and do this. It's changed my whole family's life. Joe: Okay. So let me ask the question that all buyers ask, why did you sell the business? Paul: Yeah, it was a tough decision to sell because I was having so much fun running it. And I think the honest answer is the value of the business became such that it really could provide a lot of security for our family. And it felt like if I was 23 and single and didn't have kids I'll like alright instead of going for this I might have just keep on going and try to sell it for three times this or five times this or just keep going. But knowing Amazon can be volatile and like I had all my eggs in that basket so it just felt like the responsible thing is to take some chips off the table and let go of the business but it was really hard. Joe: The responsible thing; I like that, the responsible thing. Your CPA background is coming out now. That's good. Paul: Yeah. Joe: All right so what was the toughest part about going through the sales process and selling the business; what was the hardest part there? Paul: Picking a buyer was really tough. Joe: It's a good problem. That's a good problem to have. Paul: I mean just even knowing how to approach it and you really helped a ton Joe in that process. When it's your first time through and you already have kind of these emotions like you built this thing and now it's worth something that people want it, it's a weird feeling and like how to value it and how to find the right fit and thinking about SBA versus cash; there's just a lot of things that are spinning through your head at that time so I think just getting a clear head and trying to identify what the right fit was the toughest part. Joe: Okay. I think you again exception rather than really had 10 offers, I think maybe one or two might have come in slightly under asking price but the vast majority was above. I think 2019 the average offers that we had on any single listening was two and a half so you are five times that amount which is pretty exceptional. That goes to the brand that you built. It goes to the way that you set the business up with its own entity. You didn't come and go books. You're a CPA but you hired a professional bookkeeper. You instilled so much confidence in buyers. They clearly came out of the woodworks to buy your business. All right, the toughest part was choosing the buyer; that's amazing. It's not what I would've guessed you would have said. Sometimes it's due diligence but with you, it was choosing a buyer. All right so now there's life after the sale, you were in the corporate world working 40, 50 hours a week or sometimes more in tax season and then you're an entrepreneur working from home spending time with your son now what are you doing? You've sold the business nine months ago, what are you doing with your time? Paul: Yeah so it's been nice to have a little; in life usually you're just like chasing after the next thing and I've had just the time to step back and think really what I want to do and what I want my life to look like so it's been like a real luxury. So I'm going into; I'm building a website, it's called WealthFam.com. Joe: Fam like family? Okay. Paul: Yup like family. It's brand new but basically it sort of like combines my background and what I like to do. So it's all about building wealth; becoming financially independent, starting and running online businesses. Basically, it's how to be smarter with your money and use the money to help kind of enable the life that you want to live whether it's being with your kids or going on trips or whatever else. So it's a content site which is a super interesting thing. I thought a lot about going back and doing another Amazon business but I just didn't feel the same spark for like starting it and it takes a lot of energy and mental fortitude to take something from A to Z and you've got to really want it kind of every step of the way. So this just kind of really energized me and there's been some great stories like Ramon's story; you featured Ramon. It like blew my mind the… Joe: His content site, yeah. Paul: And that happened in the content space so that was really exciting to me. And on top of that I just like doing this stuff so it feels like the right sort of fit. Joe: So what kind of subjects are you going to cover on Wealth Fam? Paul: So it's broken down a couple of categories like making money, saving money, investing money, financial independence, and then some stuff like how money intersects with having a kid and being married or buying a house. So I'm trying to make it like a modern personal finance site that people in their teens, 20s, 30s, can find well like at least from my experience like education society; like our schools and in general, there's not a lot of like real training about… Joe: There's none of it. There's none of it, yeah. Paul: And there's even a lesson mode like starting an online business and like the potential kind of betting on yourself. Joe: It seems like a great idea because you're taking your educational experience along with your entrepreneurial experience and marrying them together with a content site which is great. I love content sites. We work with SaaS, content, and FBA and content is just fantastic. Scott Voelker is really, really focused on helping people go beyond FBA and build content sites and some of them have great success and its driving more traffic back to FBA and getting their business products sold. For those that aren't familiar with content site monetization, how do you plan to monetize the site? Paul: So there's a couple of traditional ways that people will do it. So, first of all, you have to have traffic. I mean if I have traffic inaudible[00:28:43.3] selling eyeballs like it's tough to; getting traffic is really hard and you're playing like this SEO game and it takes a long time to rank in Google. Then there's a couple of primary ways, the first is affiliate links like you could be selling a course or selling something on Amazon or selling; the Amazon FBA thing is a really interesting thing for Amazon sellers to marry their inaudible[00:29:04.9] business with content. I love that idea. I think that's really smart. There's brand sponsorships, other partnerships; but it's like advertising and affiliate income are kind of the two main plays for monetizing. Joe: I got you, okay. All right how's life at home; what do you do with your time? I mean you've you don't have a job. You're starting a content site which might take a little bit of your time. You've got a baby. Paul: It takes a lot of time. Joe: It takes a lot; the startup phase is always the hardest, isn't it? Paul: Inaudible[00:29:38.4] the thing I underestimated about content is that like writing is really hard. Joe: Yeah. Paul: I think oh I can write something about Amazon, that's easy, I know this. It takes a lot of time to really do a good job at clarifying your thoughts but overall I'm just trying to optimize my life for happiness and contentment and I get that right now being with my son and my wife. So I spend a lot of time with my family. We do a lot of cool stuff together. And I'm really liking; I do some Amazon consulting because I'm still at the Amazon blog and I like to be involved in it so I'm doing some of that for some local companies which I love doing.   Joe: Good. Paul: And then this content thing really is exciting and fun and I'm going to see where it can go and… Joe: So you didn't make enough on the sale of your business to never work again but enough to give you a pretty long runway and you're enjoying your expertise in the Amazon space and doing some consulting while you're building up another content or a content business? Paul: Yeah that's a fair way to… Joe: Does that sum it up? Paul: Yeah and I'd like to go up those kind of shift too, right? I'm not sure how in-tune you are with the financial independence world, all the people that want to retire early and be financially… Joe: Oh yeah, fire. Paul: So like if your burn rate or you can live on 40 grand a year once you stacked up a million bucks, in theory, you can quote-unquote retire. Joe: Sure. Paul: But as you think about education and college and healthcare and all these other things that number maybe gets a little bit… Joe: It gets blown out of the water. I have an 18-year-old and we're 14 days away from knowing what he's getting into which is schools and I'm rooting for the in-state schools; I'm not going to lie to you, I'm rooting for the in-state. Paul: Hey, I went to an in-state school and… Joe: Look at how it turned out; pretty damn good. Paul: Yeah. Joe: All right cool. Well, listen Paul I always tell the story about you and your brand and the fact that that fifth pillar makes a huge difference. It's the person behind the business that builds a great business with the next owner in mind. You kind of did that, I don't know if you did it intentionally or not but you said I'm going to build a great business. I want to put it all in a package that's going to help the new owner of the business do amazing things with it. And Matt the new owner of the business as you know is doing amazing things with it. And it pays off when you think about others exactly what you did that paid off for you, it paid off for your family, and now hopefully through Wealth Fam, it's going to pay off for a lot of other visitors to your website as well so people can start young and start smart and get on the right path financially. So listen man thanks for your time. I appreciate the business that you've built because it allows me to tell a story of how the person behind the business makes a tremendous difference so thank you and I appreciate you coming on the podcast today. Paul: You got it. Anytime. Thanks a lot, Joe. Links and Resources: Paul's Website Jungle Scout Helium 10

What’s your superpower? What makes you tick as an entrepreneur and a human being? Entrepreneur’s in the early stages of building a business reach a “no man’s land” where they struggle to move forward and gain traction. Joe Trodden joins us in this episode of Just the Tips to talk about changing your mindset—and finding your superpower.  After following a traditional path and getting a degree in Law, Joe Trodden changed his life and studied Psychology. Joe is now the CEO of Mindset Experts and specializes in helping entrepreneurs change their mindset and find their superpower. If you’re ready to level-up and scale-up your business, listen to this episode! Outline of This Episode [2:30] Joe Trodden guest stars! [3:50] You must focus inward [7:15] You’re shaped by your beliefs [10:45] What is mindset? [14:15] Why is Dean Ebenezer Scrooge?  [17:55] Core strategies that help guide you [22:40] Set an alarm to practice mindfulness [25:55] It’s about knowing yourself [27:10] Cognitive diversity: multiple valid perspectives [30:35] Connect with Joe What’s your superpower? What is your unique ability? What sets you apart? What gets you in a state of flow? Joe spent years working with entrepreneurs working to launch their businesses. He found that it’s so much easier to identify strengths in other people, but hard to figure out your own. To create a strategy that will propel your business forward, you must leverage your superpowers. To do that, you need to know what they are. You need to focus on a couple of things that you do best—and build a team around you to handle the rest. Keep listening to hear some of Joe’s strategies for determining your superpower.  Change your entrepreneurial mindset According to Joe, “Mindset is every cognitive function that goes on inside your head that is shaping your entire perception and lens on the world”. It is everything that makes you who you are. Joe points out that there are 100 trillion potential (neural) connections in your brain. You are actively shaping your perception of the world and how it works.  I love the mantra “The world you live in is shaped by the beliefs you have. Change your beliefs and you’ll change your world”. What belief is holding you back? Is it motivated by fear? Are you afraid that if you step back from doing everything in your business that it will collapse?  Or that you’ll never find qualified people to join your team? It’s not just a thought experiment. You need to shift the way you see the world and change your mindset to see progress in your leadership abilities and your business. Core strategies that help change your mindset I believe that multiple perspectives can be had in any given situation. Knowing your superpower gives you a deeper appreciation of what others see. So how do you begin to learn your superpower? And how to change your mindset? Here are a few tips from Joe:  What puts you in a state of flow? Joe points out when you’re in a state of flow you feel energized, focused, and lose track of time. You’re at the height of your ‘superpower’.  Take the Myers-Briggs test. Learn how you tick and what drives you. Be hypervigilant. When emotions kick in, learn to take a step back and evaluate what is causing those emotions.  Getting to know yourself on a deeper level is key to change your mindset and worldview. It allows you to focus on what you do best. Then you can focus on building a team and scaling your business. Learn how to counteract your triggers Joe points out that to become an effective leader you need to be mindful of your emotions. Do you feel yourself getting defensive? Take a moment to step back and identify what’s triggering you, and change the course of the conversation. Take progressive action to become more consciously aware of what’s going on. Joe knows himself well. He knows his triggers and has learned to take moments throughout the day to check his emotions, figure out what’s triggering those emotions, and move forward.  In the end, a business is a group of people working together to reach the same goal. If you know yourself and know your superpowers, you are better equipped to help others find theirs. You’ll be primed and ready to become a better leader.  Joe talks in detail about mindset, flow, cognitive diversity, and so much more. Be sure to listen to the whole episode of Just the Tips! Resources & People Mentioned Joe Trodden’s Website Joe’s LinkedIn Rebel Ideas by Matthew Syed MBTI Personality Assessment Steven Kotler on the basics of Flow Music for “Just The Tips” is titled, “Happy Happy Game Show” by Kevin MacLeod (http://incompetech.com) Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License Connect With James and Dean James P. Friel: CEO Quickstart: https://jamespfriel.com/ceo-quickstart/ Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/hustledetox/ Site: www.jamespfriel.com Interested in being a guest on the show? Dean Holland: Blog: www.DeanHolland.com FB Page: https://www.facebook.com/DeanHollandHQ Billion Dollar Project: https://www.facebook.com/groups/BillionDollarProject/ Audio Production and Show notes by PODCAST FAST TRACK https://www.podcastfasttrack.com

We have sold over 120 businesses here at Quiet Light but this is the first time we've employed the term text list. Does texting make your business blow up? The young entrepreneur we are talking with today is at the forefront of mobile marketing with his company, Conversmart. When done right, mobile marketing gives customers using smartphones personalized information so that they can get what they need exactly when they need it. SMS subscriptions have begun to bypass email subscriptions with their elevated engagement and conversion rates. Arri Bagah was a computer science major who learned coding to make money as a side hustle in college. After college, he got into messenger marketing with Facebook messenger at an ad agency. He started Conversmart and began to explore looking outside traditional marketing channels for his clients. Arris has quickly become an expert in the mobile messaging space, helping his customers generate millions in additional revenue. Episode Highlights: The difference between message marketing and email marketing by numbers. The advantages of message marketing. How the tool allows for easy customer opt-in. Specific examples of the client conversion rates. Growth opportunities for potential buyers. Categories or spaces where message marketing works best. Ways to collect subscribers. Average return on ad spend. Messaging frequency of a successful text messaging campaign. Costs to get started in message marketing. The ins and outs of opt-in compliance. Advice for all types of eCommerce businesses looking to use message marketing. Transcription: Mark: Joe recently you asked me to make a change to our site; a pretty simple change. And that was to give some of our buyers, the people that want to know when we release a new listing and put it back up a little bit, anyone that's out there wanting to buy they want to know when we release a new listing and they want to know first, right? Everyone wants to be first in line for that. So you made a suggestion which we're going to implement here in the coming months which is to add text messaging; SMS alerts when we release a new listing. And I know this didn't just come from you sitting around and saying hey… Joe: Yes it did. I come up with all these great ideas in my head. I don't get any help from anybody else; just a clarification. Mark: You know I'm not sure I want to; okay fine, this was 100% your idea based on somebody that you talked to on the podcast. Joe: Alright, that's true. Mark: Alright who did you talk to and why are we talking about SMS texting? It sounds invasive to me. It sounds like something I wouldn't necessarily want but the data doesn't really agree with me at all as it often doesn't. Joe: Yeah, it doesn't agree with you at all or me. Talk to teenagers this is what they do. And actually, they don't even text now it's just a snap. But in Seattle… Mark: You have to get on the TikTok train, that's where it is now; Tiktok. Joe: Actually that's true. Mark: Yeah so there you go. Joe: I'm hearing about that as well. You have a teenage girl so you know. Should we be talking about our kids? No, they don't want to hear about our kids. Mark: So we talk about my kids will be on here forever. And like it's two minutes each that's like 15 minutes. Alright, SMS text messaging let's get back on that. Joe: I was at a Blue Ribbon Mastermind in Seattle with Brad and Chris and this young kid gets up on stage and he presents on SMS text messaging and how it impacts engagement with customers and he starts talking about 98% open rates and much, much higher conversion rates. And the average order value in all of this stuff and somebody we know, somebody we've sold a business to engaged with him afterwards and hired him afterwards and his business has blown up. I don't want to give his name because people want to talk to him and we keep referring people to him and he's just trying to make a living and people want to talk to him about how he's doing it. So I'm not going to give his name but his business has absolutely blown up. So I ended up connecting with Arri; Arri Bagah, he's a kid guys. Yeah, he's a kid to me. I got gray on my chin. He's like 24 or 25 years old but he's at the forefront of the next evolution of e-mail marketing which is SMS marketing. It's capturing mobile phone numbers, doing specific marketing directly to that mobile number, and it's amazing. When you're online shopping now; this is how he describes it now, if you're online shopping on your mobile phone and someone says subscribe and you click on it and it's the old school way to subscribe it's your email address and then you've got to go confirm in your inbox and then all these multiple steps. Now with SMS and if it's done right and you subscribe you can confirm it right there on your phone and then you get that coupon code right there on your phone and then you could place the order right there on your phone. It's like so quick; 15 seconds versus multiple steps in multiple places. So there is a little bit of that and a whole lot of you want to help your customers, you want to get good information in front of them. They want information to get to them in a way in which they live now which is on their mobile devices SMS is the way to go. You don't have to check your e-mail. It just pops up. There's a blue dot. I'm looking at my phone right now. There's a blue dot on my phone right now. I think it's probably from you Mark. Somebody texted me and if I want to make it go away I have to click it. I have to do that. Same with Messenger and Facebook; it shows up on my phone. I could get rid of it. So the engagement is much higher, conversion rate is much higher; gosh if I could just give a statistic here. He gave me something like a 25 time ROAS, return on ad spend. So if you spend a dollar you're getting $25 back. That's amazing. I think they guarantee a 15-time ROAS. It's incredible. That's all I have to say about it. Mark: That's amazing. I think the emphasis here because we; let's bring this back to what we talk about on this podcast all the time, we're talking about buying and selling internet-based businesses and for somebody buying we're looking at how can we grow what we're acquiring here. And look we know Facebook we know Google but let's face it Mark Zuckerberg has gotten greedy. It's really, really difficult to make Facebook pay well. And if you had a 25 ROAS on Facebook you'd be selling a course next because that's what people do. You're usually happy if you have that 3 ROAS on Facebook. Google is the same sort of thing. And I think it's important for us to look outside of what we think are the most profitable marketing channels. Look all the data does actually point the same direction. The most profitable marketing channels are the ones that you own; email and email we know is cluttered so SMS text makes a lot of sense if you have permission to be able to send SMS texting because no one else is doing it. So it's going to be a really great channel. I'm excited to listen to this because you asked me to add this as an option. I'd like to hear from buyers as well would you want to have text alerts when we release a new list and I think it's a great idea to do. Obviously, it would be opt-in only but it would be a great way to be right at the forefront of that. I'm excited to listen to this and also learn how to implement this as a system within Quiet Light Brokerage. It's fantastic. Joe: Yeah. You just said opt-in only; you can opt-in, you can opt-out. All of that is right there. So you just invited all of the buyers in the audience to reach out to you and let you know so why don't you give out your cell number so you can have them all text you and say yeah man implement this. Mark: Yeah. Joe: No, don't do that. Mark: Or just e-mail me, Mark@QuietLightBrokerage.com and then when I reply they'll have my cell phone number because it's right there at the signature. Joe: I want you all to harass Mark and stay on top of him on this one because I think it's going to be a game-changer for you the buyers to be notified on your phone that there's a new listing that's launching. Right now we're launching one in four hours. Wouldn't you love to be notified two hours in advance of the e-mail launch? It would be great. I think it's a great service that we can do for you and I think it's a great service that all the e-commerce SAS content owners can do out there for their audience as well. So let's stop talking and go to it. Here we go. Joe: Hey folks Joe Valley here from Quiet Light Brokerage and today we're going to talk about something I'm pretty clueless on which is text marketing, SMS marketing, we've got an expert in the area. I met him at Blue Ribbon Mastermind one Ezra Firestone's Mastermind groups. His name is Arri Bagah. Ari welcome to the Quiet Light Podcast. Arri: Thanks so much for having me, Joe. Joe: I'm so glad you're here and I'm going to call out where you are actually because Ramone Van Miller has been on the podcast as well. He's a good friend of Quiet Light. We're actually out filming in California now telling his story and you're sitting in his kitchen because you're working with him on one of his businesses, correct? Arri: Yeah. That's exactly why I'm here. Joe: So folks those that actually go to the YouTube page and get to see this, you'll get to see a Ramone's kitchen in the background; at least his guest house at the very least. Alright, Arri tell us about what the heck is text message marketing and tell us a little bit about yourself and how you got into it. Arri: So I went to Roosevelt University in downtown Chicago for computer science and before I started I met a friend who had like a really nice apartment in downtown Chicago and I just asked hey how did you get that apartment? And then he was like hey I code and build websites. I was like cool I want that apartment. That's how he got this and that's probably what I should do too; to code web sites for people and make money. So fast forward I learned how to code throughout like the first semester. And then it will be like do a lot of the homework just like to learn how to do it myself. And then I decided if I can learn how to code myself then I can just like keep doing it. And that's where like my entrepreneurship journey started. I built a couple of web sites and then got into Facebook marketing. So I decided to move to LA. I got a job at an agency and before that's when I got into Messenger marketing which is a way for brands to leverage Facebook Messenger to market. So at Facebook Messenger marketing, we're seeing really good results. And at this agency, I was running Messenger marketing for like 15 different e-commerce brands at once and it was pretty, pretty crazy. I learned a lot. I got a lot of experience doing it. And I decided to do it for myself. And that's when I left that agency and started Conversmart. And we've grown pretty much since and then got into text messaging this year. And I'm super excited about text messaging because it's a whole different way for brands to be able to reach their customers. It's more direct. And a lot of the brands that we work with have seen really great results. So that's kind of like how everything started. Joe: So we've had you know guys like Mike Jackness who we're friends with, I sold one of Mike's businesses for him. He's an expert in e-commerce space. He runs EcomCrew. He talks all around the world on e-mail marketing with Klaviyo. Talk to; for those that are new to the space and text message marketing, talk to us about the difference in terms of the open rates and conversion rates and how you're able to reach people and things of that nature. Arri: Yeah that's a great question. I think email marketing is great. It still works. Billions of dollars generated each year through email. But the problem with email is that everybody is doing it. Especially with this season; the Black Friday holiday season, people are sending like 3 to 5 emails per day so as you can see the open rates and performance just completely drops when everybody is sending that much volume in emails. So the difference is that with text there are not a lot of people doing it. And if people are; people are super-specific to like which text or which brands they subscribe to so there's not a lot of competition when you're able to reach that customer directly. And one of the things that we've seen is that if you look at the traffic split for your e-commerce store the majority of the traffic is probably mobile already. So if somebody is like on their cell phone browsing your web site and you want to get them on your list right now brands have pop-ups and really if you give somebody a coupon and they have to leave your web site and go to their email check that email, get that coupon and hopefully come back to site and you can see how many distractions there are in the e-mail inbox. Joe: True. Arri: So there is friction right there already. Whereas with text you get that customer, they're already browsing on your mobile, you get them to opt-in through text, you send them a text, they get the coupon, they click and they're right back to your site. So it's a more direct way to reach customers exactly where they are. And really what we found is that we're not asking people to stop doing email marketing, we just want people to supplement the email marketing with text. Because with text you get 99% open rates, 10 to 20% click-through rates and usually double or triple the conversion rate over convert to like email. I'm working with Ramone like you mentioned on his brands. Really like he was telling me hey like our texts always like performs four times better than our emails let's do more text. So he's sending more text messages now which is something that we help with. We can talk more about what type of content people like. So we come up with really good content that people like and we're able to send it directly to them. They come back to site. They make [inaudible 00:13:29.5] just so that's like I think the big difference between email whereas email has gotten really overused and then text is just like this new channel that allows people to reach their customers directly. Joe: Let's talk about some of the steps that someone would take if they were going to move into text message marketing. With emails there's opt-in and unsubscribe and things of that nature, what's the equivalent of that with text message marketing? Arri: Yeah, so you can't talk text marketing without compliance. So with text messaging, we have to get people to double opt-in. I think the reason why people have these misconceptions about text messaging is because they've probably subscribed to a list before and people are just like spamming them. Or they didn't even subscribe and then they got messages. So one of the things that we do today is that we make sure that people are double opting in and that's one of the reasons why we see these high open rates and click-through rates because people are actually expecting you to text them rather than somebody is going through like a form and then you get their phone number and by surprise they receive a text and they're like why is this brand or business texting me. So we make sure that people are consenting to receiving those texts and that's the reason why we see really good results with it because people are now expecting you to go. Joe: So it starts with the double opt-in just like e-mail and you're capturing then those customers where currently either on someone's website on a laptop, PC, Mac, or whatever it might be or on the mobile device where you've got that pop up asking them to enter their phone number I assume obviously to get a discount or a coupon or to get information in the future. I see pop-ups all day long when I'm on websites. That's what it would be on the mobile phone or mobile device when you're asking for a phone number is that right? Arri: Yes. So basically we mostly only do it on mobile and the experience is really great because we don't even have people typing in their phone number. All they do is they tap the pop up twice and it opens up they tap to pop up the first time it opens up their messaging app they send the message and they get opt-in and we get the phone number through that. That is all powered by our platform partner called Pop Script. So yeah you know… Joe: It sounds like a breeze. Arri: Yeah like when you ask someone to put in their e-mail for a discount a lot of people put in their fake emails and especially with phone number you can expect people to put in like 222 and then whatever to get that discount, right? Now we've bypassed that by getting them to like actually send a text. So that's another compliance step that makes sure that your brand is fully compliant. So they send a text, they get opted in, and that's when they get that welcome message and get opted into the automated flow, abandon cart, and all those different things. So that's kind of like how it's set up. Joe: Okay. So can you talk to us about specific examples where you've had a client that's just been doing e-mail marketing and they brought you on board and what the change was in terms of their open rate, their conversion rate, their total revenues, and things of that nature so people listening either as current owners of online businesses or potentially buyers of online businesses and looking at growth opportunities as a buyer as well. Can you help out with an example or two? Arri: Sure. Yeah, we have a lot of examples. So one of the things that I wanted to mention is that your e-mail list is an asset and your text list is also an asset. And those are people that you can reach out to get them to make a purchase even after the rising cost of Facebook ads and all these different things. These are people that you can reach out to because you own that customer list. So if you're buying a business and they have a text list it's a really great asset to own. Joe: I got to tell you I've sold 120 businesses in the last 7 years and I don't think I've ever asked the question do you have a text list nor has anyone ever said well Joe you're asking about the e-mail list what about my text list? So it's rare. I assume it's coming in the future and that's why I've got you on today. But is the text list usually the equivalent of any e-mail list; smaller, larger, how big are they? Arri: You can have like large text lists and they usually work way more than your email list just because of the difference in the performance like being able to reach someone directly. So a few examples I think I've been like working with Ramone like you mentioned like when we started working together they were doing a lot of emails. So everybody that we work with it's always hesitant. It's like you know what I've never signed up to receive texts from a business. I don't see why anybody else in the world would want to receive texts from a business. So this is one of the things that we get all the time. And one of the things that we say is that you're not your customer. Like your customer doesn't live the same way. There are people out there who are looking to get like deals sent directly to them so they can save money. And there are all kinds of people out there who are willing to receive texts and most customers are and we have data to prove it. So that's the first thing. And then when we started doing the text messaging, when we launched our promotions and stuff like that we saw that text was performing four times better than e-mail. So we started to like send more text messages. Joe: In revenue what we got four times more revenue than email? Arri: Yeah. Joe: Do the math on that. People if you're listening and you have an e-mail campaign gosh Mike Jackness that's; ColorIt was huge on the e-mail campaigns, text messaging four times the revenue. That's crazy. Crazy good and it's time that we sort of adopted text messaging. I know that it's hard to ignore when it comes through because if you want that blue or green or whatever color of dot you have on your phone when a text comes through if you want it to go away you have to open the text. Arri: Yeah. And the crazy part is that looking at the millennial group like over I think it was 80% or so opened that text within 90 seconds. I think it was something like that. And yeah people don't always open every text they receive. So that's one of the great things about this. So we send our texts even for this Halloween campaign and things that we just launched every single text that we sent we saw well above 10 or 15% or so click through rates and the conversion rate was at least like 6% or so. And with text like you mentioned people open it and then they want to take to action, right? It's very short. And one of the things that we do is that we add images and GIFs. We design all these custom-built before; our design team does all that stuff. And I think that's one of the biggest value propositions is that we do the creative for the text so that it's not like somebody is just receiving a text from you they're also receiving like engaging content. So we design these GIFs and we improve the conversion rate. So every time we send like a GIF and text compared to just sending text we see twice the conversion rate when we add the engaging GIF. So those are some of the designs that we do. Joe: So for all non-millennials out there the proper pronunciation is GIF, it's not JIF clearly. That's an ongoing joke in my house. Sorry, I'm sharing a joke, people. So it's a visual aspect to it, it's just not content, they can see the images which is proven to bring more emotions to the surface and obviously convert higher. Are there any sort of categories or spaces in terms of products; e-commerce where it works better than others or certain things that you've tried and it just wouldn't work. You know Quiet Light Brokerage we've got a list of; you and I talked about this, we've got people that want to be notified and get notified when we launch new listings. I would think that text message marketing would work brilliantly for them because they'd get instantly notified instead of having to check their email. In Ramone's space, in his category, it works obviously brilliantly. Are there any spaces where you find that; I'm sure there are people that are listening and going oh yeah but I run a such and such type of business, it wouldn't work for mine? Is there anything that; is there truth to that, any that you can think of, or some categories that work better than others? Arri: That's a great question. I think the reason why people ask that is that they probably think that their customer is different than like everybody else. And the answer to that is as a business all you're doing is providing a solution to a problem to a specific group of people. And if your product works and if you have happy customers those people would want to hear from you and that's the reason why I say text works for like any space. I don't think there's any sort of brand that we work with that we saw okay their customer is not responding to text. And the reason is like I said you're solving a problem for these people and these people want to hear from you. So every single time it doesn't matter what space you're in or what product you promoted. It has always worked for their target audience. Joe: Okay, so we've talked about how to capture more phone numbers on the mobile devices, how to reach them, what the conversion rate is, usually four times the amount of revenue in e-mail marketing, and the fact that it works for every category in your opinion. What about A-cost or return on ad spend or average cost per order, how does that compare to e-mail marketing or if you're familiar with the FDA space things of that nature, do you have a sense in terms of whether it cost less or more in terms of cost per order service text marketing? Arri: Yeah, that's a good question but I wanted to add on to the ways that we collect subscribers real quick. One of the things that we've been doing recently is actually like leveraging Facebook and Instagram ads; lead ads to get more phone numbers. So when we run these text campaigns we realize text is performing way better so why don't we supercharge our text list. So we started running Facebook ads to get people to opt into just text directly through Facebook and then they're able to get on your text list so you can put them through nurturing flows. This was one of the performance methods that we've been using. Going back to your question which I completely forgot. Joe: No, I love where you just went. I wrote my question down so I can look down and ask it again. But you're talking about what would be in e-mail flow that Mike Jackness has always talked about with Klaviyo. You're doing the same thing with text message marketing. Arri: Yeah. Joe: What did you call it; what was that flow you called it just now? In terms of like okay everybody, listening can remember but you and I can't; skip it. It's the flow of nurturing, right? Arri: Yeah. Joe: How you're going to nurture that customer along and help them, help them, help them, and then give them something that they could take action on. I was asking about average cost per order or return on ad spend; what are you seeing there? Arri: Yeah the average return that we see for the plan that we work with is a 25, or the minimum return is 25X and usually for brands that we work with… Joe: Cut it down, 25X? Arri: Yeah. Joe: So I spend $10 and I produce $250; is that right? Arri: Yeah. Joe: So I did that really good math. I spend a dollar and I get 25 back. That's easier math for you and me. Really 25 times? Arri: Yeah. Joe: I'm seeing on e-commerce businesses between when they're doing e-mail all sorts of PPC, Facebook, Google AdWords, whatever it might be but all of it combined with Google as well where the average cost as a percentage of total revenue is somewhere between 9 and 15%. You're talking an incredibly low number here. Arri: Yeah. Joe: It sounds too good to be true. I don't mean to talk over you but people I just want to like hammer home on it really 25 times? Arri: Actually I'm being super conservative here. Joe: Really? Arri: Yeah. So the reason why is that the way we do text messaging we're already like we're capturing for the most part people who are already interested in your brand. So people who are on your web site. So you have good website traffic. That's the reason why text works a lot because we're getting people who are interested and then we're able to reach them directly on their smartphones and then you create really custom automated flows and really great broadcast. So that's how we're able to get really high returns. Like I don't think we have like any brand that's getting lower than like a 50X, to be honest. But we like to say we guarantee a minimum of 15X return. But yeah we get really high returns. And I don't even want to go with the ones that are getting like 200X or whatever because that will scare people. Joe: There's going to be a limit to what they can spend if they're getting even a 50X or 15X I guess the limit would be the total number of phone numbers that you have and how often you send these messages, right? I mean with e-mail I know that with Klaviyo; Mike's campaign on ColorIt, he would send e-mails all the time. They were helpful educational e-mails and really in that regard and then there would be a promotion where they could get a discount or a sample pack or something like that. How often are you sending text messages on one of these nurturing campaigns or flows as you call them? Arri: Yeah so we break down the messaging by automated flows and one time messages which is basically broadcasting. So with the automated flows, we like to send; when somebody subscribes we can send them a message immediately with like whatever the offer was and then we can send reminders. We send like two reminders within 24 hours for them to take action. And then on top of that, we have the [inaudible[00:28:04.1] and if they do not take any action or purchase then we'd get them into the Welcome Series which we can send that every three or four days and we'd like to stop after like five messages. We always give people like the reply stop to unsubscribe because if somebody signs and just said then we rather have them unsubscribe and save us some text money. And there was always that option. And then if they get into abandoned carts we have two series abandoned cart recovery messages that we send out until they make the purchase and then we go in to post-purchase. So with post-purchase, you can do a lot of things with like product-specific flows. If somebody bought this product you can say hey; you can upsell them other sort of products are related. So we can get really nitty-gritty with that. And then we have the one-time messages. With broadcasting, we recommend sending at least twice a week. I've seen people who have like text lists and then never want to message them because I think they're scared that hey they're going to receive too many messages. I really talked to a brand yesterday and they're like yeah we sent only one text a month and I'm like yeah you guys need to be sending at least like 6 to 10 maybe 2 every week because you're just going to like double how much revenue you'll generate. Joe: Right. And if the customer doesn't want to hear from you they're going to opt out; as simple as that. Arri: Yeah. Joe: That was the approach Mike took with Klaviyo and ColorIt as well; send as many as you can, be as helpful as you can, and let them know if they don't want to get any messages they can opt-out. It sounds like your approach is the same with your clients. Arri: Yeah. And I think that content really matters too. It's not about just like blasting sales. I think people think that because we are having all these crazy resources that we're always doing sales but we rarely do sales. It's always like short and sweet content with like a GIF that kind of illustrate what we're trying to say that engages the customer more into taking action and in between, we add like sort of small discounts. So it's not always about sending like hey we're doing like a storewide 20% off or whatever. You can actually send like a content. Joe: Okay. Talk to me about the cost to get started with something like this. I mean with Conversmart your business; that's Conversmart, there's no T in there folks but we'll put it in the show notes as well. How does someone get started dollar-wise? What's a test look like in terms of giving it a shot and seeing if it works and how many times do they have to really test it? What do you recommend to new clients that are coming in? Arri: Yeah. So SMS at the very bottom of the funnel so I recommend having a good amount of traffic; at least 20 to 30,000 web site visitors in order for it to work if you just want to do bottom of the funnel but if you want to use the Facebook ads to start growing your list which is a really good strategy because with the Facebook ads you get people to opt in to your text list and those people who were opting in are also buying which is paying for the cost for you to acquire those leads. So you're basically getting free leads. Joe: That's something beautiful. Arri: And then we'll tell you about because that's probably we've been doing hey let's get more free leads. So that strategy works really well. So we get people to opt-in through the web site and then we also get people to send some automated messages. Those are some of the great ways to start. So first you got to get people to opt-in. You have to have the traffic. You get people to opt-in by having a pop-up or on your mobile device or you do the Facebook ads and once they opt-in then you have to send messages. I think Thank You messages is the most important part lke it goes back to e-mail, right? I've met some people and it's always the same situation; it's like hey I have this e-mail list but I'm not even e-mailing them. It's the same with texts. You have to text the people who have subscribed. And it's always great to text at least once a week so when are you doing your promotion so these people are not completely forgetting about your brand or who you are. So it's a great way to stay top of mind while generating revenue. Joe: But budget-wise though for people going should I try this, is something I can give it a go, do they have to have a thousand to 5,000 or 10,000 dollars set aside to test this with? What do you recommend? Arri: You can get started fairly easy. In fact with our partner Postscript which is the platform that we use; if you own a Shopify, it's the one that we work for Shopify but if you're on another platform we can definitely chat about that. But it's super simple to get started in fact I can give you guys like free 1,000 credit if you want to try out text messaging. You can give them the link or something like that. Joe: Yeah, great. We'll put that in the show notes. Arri: Yeah you get charged by how many messages you send if you want to do it yourself. There is no platform fee or anything like that. So once you get those credits you can start sending and see kind of like what the results look like. And like I said it's only going to cost you if you send the text messages and be able to tell if it's working or not. So it's very simple to start. Joe: Okay. So it's all about the number of texts that you send. First, you've got to capture as many phone numbers as possible and get them to opt-in. Like we've got a fairly large list after a decade of email addresses and phone numbers, we can't just use those phone numbers we've got to get them to opt-in first, correct? We're going to follow the law. Actually, they opt-in to receive information from us anyway via email would that apply for their phone numbers as well? Arri: No they have to have opted in for the text. Joe: I got it. Arri: So if it said like only for them we're going to finish up 5 today check here to opt-in for the e-mails it has to also say text otherwise they're not opting in for the texts. Joe: That's good to know. Okay, any last thoughts for people with e-commerce businesses in terms of text or actually I'm saying e-commerce but I would imagine this would work for SaaS and content businesses as well, right? Arri: Yes. In fact like even with like a B2B company. I got a text. I signed him up for like a demo and he's texting me and we actually had a conversation. So this is a great way to like follow up with people if you're like not even in the e-commerce space. You can text them… Joe: It worked for you and worked for Quiet Light too so I don't know why I'm thinking only e-com. Arri: Last words; if you're an e-commerce business I definitely recommend looking at text because it's going to be the number one way people are going to be communicating. As emails are being sent even more I think there's going to be like over 319 billion e-mails sent in the next year or whatever so text is a great channel for you to reach those customers and you don't have to go all in. You can do like small tests and kind of see what the results look like. So yeah I highly recommend checking it out and doing some small tests to kind of see what the results look like for you. Joe: Okay and it looks like they can reach out to you and get a free consultation as well. How do they find you? What's the URL that they'd reach you at or things of that nature? Arri: Yeah. So Conversmart.com, that's where you'll be able to find us, you'll kind of see like kind of an overview of what we do with text messaging. We take a really different approach to text messaging that people haven't seen before especially with the content that we send and the creative that goes along with that content. That's really what helps brands double that conversion rate when they send all these text messages. And also as an agency, we take over the entire channel for you. So basically you can sign up and basically, you just see like money come in from text messaging after a couple of weeks and then we just give you all the reporting. You don't have to do anything besides approving the content and everything. So we'll basically like take over the entire channel for you. And that's pretty much like what we do for every brand that we work with. We don't want them to like worry about getting 11% open rates and 1% click-through rate over email. We can supplement that by sending people text messages that they actually like. And people are going to convert from those text messages. Joe: Excellent. Well, I know that what you're doing is working because you're hanging out with the likes of Ramone and that is rad. So you're doing something right. There's no question about it. Anybody out there that's interested in reaching out to Arri just go to Conversmart.com. Arri I will see you at the next Blue Ribbon Mastermind event and when Ramone gets back from filming today which he's doing for Quiet Light thank you, Ramone, give him a high five. Tell him I said hello. Arri: Yeah. Joe: Thanks for your time. I appreciate it. Arri: Alright. Thanks for having me. Links and Resources: Conversmart Free 1000 Postscript credits

We always talk about the importance of community within the CRNA profession so let’s take it a step further by discussing how and why you should get involved. There are varying levels of involvement, as we’ll get into, but Joe Rodriguez will help us understand what your participation means to the industry.   ***CE CREDIT ALERT: Did you know you can get continuing education credit from the AANA for listening to this episode? Go to https://knowledgenetwork.aana.com/home to get the details and get your credit today! And see a list of other episodes that qualify for CE credit here: https://beyondthemaskpodcast.com/series-ce-credit   Show Notes: https://beyondthemaskpodcast.com/the-importance-of-getting-involved-with-joe-rodriguez-crna/2079/   Today's rundown: 2:20 – Introducing our guest today, Joe Rodriguez. 3:08 – His topic today is ‘getting involved.’ Here’s why it’s important. 4:07 – Participating in community at work versus neighborhood is a little different for Joe. 5:09 – Have you always been like this or did you develop this interest in getting involved?   7:25 – Should everyone be as engaged as Joe? What’s the happy medium? 9:18 – How many CRNAs total compared to AANA members? 11:16 – What is the average CRNA career worth? 12:17 – Do you remember MI 68? Their story shows why it’s important to be engaged. 13:00 – Sometimes people just need to be asked. 14:23 – Why Joe is so passionate about all these regulatory issues. 15:37 – How do you overcome an opponent that’s better funded? 19:12 – Highlighting the progress that Joe has seen through the years. 21:27 – How do you balance your time to get so much accomplished? 23:43 – If he wasn’t a CRNA, Joe would be a lawyer.                            26:30 – What advice would you give people to get them involved? And specifically for people at different stages of their career – early, middle, late.

Today we welcome Chuck (iii) Mullins, we are talking with him about his background, experience, his algorithm knowledge, ask him our rapid-fire questions, and pick his brain about the business. Chuck built his first profitable website back in 1996 when he was an impressionable 18 years old. He studied computer software engineering in college, which taught him the skills to analyze search results and implement strategies. Throughout his career of developing, managing, consulting, and investing in internet-based companies, Chuck has developed a keen ability to spot opportunities and develop strategies that lead to growth and profitability. Episode Highlights: Chuck's background, entrepreneurial experience, and success stories Web-based business ups-and-downs The difference in long-term cash flow from web-based businesses and get-rich-quick cash businesses Chuck's favorite web niches Chuck's favorite audience member (who is also a buyer) Websites that are more/less desirable The importance of knowing your Profit and Loss Biggest mistake buyers can make Best practices for buyers and sellers The importance of understanding the business and doing your research Quiet Light's vision and how we can help you Transcription: Mark: Joe, one of my favorite things about working with team Quiet Light is some of the camaraderie that we have with each other. The fact that we get to tease each other a little bit, egg each other on, but also help each other out; talk about deals, collaborate on our transactions because everybody at Quiet Light has so much entrepreneurial experience that it's like having this built in board of advisors for every single thing that we do. And one thing I think you and I need to do a better job of; I know we've had each of the advisors on Quiet Light at the Quiet Light Podcast. I think we need to bring them on a bit more so that others can enjoy some of the experience that they have. You had Chuck on recently and grilled him a little bit in this episode. Joe: I did. I want people to get to know Chuck for the fun experienced entrepreneur that he is. And so I mixed it up a little bit. I had some fun with him we did some rapid-fire questions. I intentionally; just let me get this upfront and out there for the audience. I intentionally mispronounced somebody's name. I butchered it intentionally. Again I did it seven or eight episodes ago and I got some email saying I think the person you're trying to find is so and so. I did it again. Mark: Same person? Joe: Same person; yeah, if he's listening. Mark: He needs to start listening to the podcast especially my episodes because frankly, I've got a leg up on you. Joe: You have overtaken me for the most popular episode on the Quiet Light Podcast. I will overcome that because I've got some great ones planned coming in here soon. Chuck is a fascinating individual. I've known Chuck for a long time and he's really, really smart when it comes to his entrepreneurial acumen. It's almost annoying to be honest because with a model that we have at Quiet Light Brokerage; we don't have employees, right? No one's an employee of Quiet Light Brokerage. We have a lot of entrepreneurs who work together in sort of a collective group. Well, one of the benefits to that is all the advice and feedback I'm able to get from people. And one of the most annoying things is all the feedback and advice I get from everyone. And sometimes; Chuck especially, Chuck is so thorough. What's the term he gives to himself? Whatever it is he just hyper focuses on the most minute little detail and I fear asking questions sometimes because of the level of detail that he's going to give to me in terms of what I have to fix and correct in a document that I'm creating. Mark: But at the end of the day even though sometimes it can be overwhelming like come on you think I'm doing everything wrong evidently because I keep getting his feedback, it's always on point. And I don't think I've ever received feedback from them where I look at it and say this is not worth considering or looking at; so a smart, smart guy. I'm looking forward to it. What are some of the things that you discussed in this episode? Joe: Well we talked about some of; he's got almost three years brokering now and over 20 years as an entrepreneur now. And he talked about some of his experiences; the pros and cons of A. being an entrepreneur, some of the things that he's found that certain buyers do better than anyone else, and how he wants new buyers to adopt that style, and then the biggest mistakes that someone's selling their business can make as well. And it's fascinating as I just said he's got 20 plus years as an entrepreneur. I'm in the same boat. You're in the same boat. So collectively the team at Quiet Light I'd say what 250 years of entrepreneurial experience that we share with our team with our clients and I think it's fascinating. Chuck is just the tip of the iceberg here in terms of the experience. So it's exciting to share this with him and we had a lot of fun. So that's the key to this one. Mark: Fantastic, well let's get to it. Joe: Hey folks it's Joe Valley from Quiet Light Brokerage on the Quiet Light Podcast. And today we have the most special guest. His name is Chucky. Now that's not what we call him. It's Chuck. I use his personal email address. I'm not going to tell you at what you can all haul in the mail anyway. You know his e-mail address its Chuck@QuietLightBrokerage. Chuck Mullins, welcome back to the Quiet Light Podcast. Chuck: Thank you, sir. Thank you. For any that's specific it's actually Charles Clifford Mullins III. That's my D-I-I-I. Joe: You know I am from New England I can't talk with a British accent; it's something about us. Chuck: Well I can't either. Joe: Alright. Well listen you know the routine. Normally on the podcast we ask people to give their own background; who they are, what they're all about so that we're not sounding like we're reading from a script which we don't. We wing these things. You know that. Our audience knows that. But before we get into that I want to ask you a series of rapid-fire questions; the first one so that people understand and establish your experience here at Quiet Light Brokerage, how long have you been brokering at Quiet Light Brokerage? Chuck: About two and a half; almost three years. Joe: Almost three years. Okay. So let's start with…I've got a total of six questions. Number one; and you've got to give me a quick answer. Number one, who's your favorite broker? Chuck: Joe Valley. Joe: Good, good, good. Alright, if you were stranded on an island with me, Brad Wayland, and Jason Yellowitz and a rash floated by and they would only carry three of us; there's four altogether, who would you leave behind and why? Chuck: Jason Yellowitz, because he would be able to burn his stacks of cash to stay warm. Joe: And he carries it with him, is that what you're saying? Chuck: Inaudible[00:06:25.8] Joe: Jason I know you all listen to the podcast so everybody make fun of Jason. That's your job here. Alright, this is a really important question. Who is the better podcast me or Andy Youderainan; I mean in Andrew Youderian? Chuck: I would have to go with Mark. Joe: You are… Chuck: Hello? Isn't it you that people come up to the Booze and ask for or is it Mark that they come up and ask for? Joe: That's me. It's me. Mark doesn't go to Booze. Alright, sid you know Walker Diabel wrote a book; and a best seller book? Chuck: Have you heard about the second book that he wrote? Joe: No. He wrote a second book? Chuck: Yes. If you go to WalkerDiebel.guru you can check out the second one that hasn't been released yet. Joe: Okay, Alright. So this is a tough question. This is not a trick question. I want to know if you can answer this one. What's the name of Walker's book? Chuck: Buy Then Build. Joe: You got it. Okay. Alright. Chuck: How can you not get it? I've heard it at every conversation. Every conference I go to there's these three books that are just floating around that conference and I'm like wait a second how did that get there? Joe: And it's the bottom of every one of his e-mail signatures. One of these days you're going to dig way back into the archives when he was actually an actor and find a clip and we're going to change his email signature line somehow some way. Alright, so as you know historically Quiet Light Brokerage does not recruit brokers. I have conversations three or four times a week these days with people who want to join the team. But we, for the most part, don't recruit. We have as you know or Mark has as you know recruited a few starting with Amanda back in the day. She was the first. And I think Brad was also recruited. And yourself was also recruited. Of all of the brokers that Mark recruited; last question by the way, what was his best decision? Chuck: Probably Brad. He's been killing it man. Joe: Man and give yourself some credit Chuck. Come on. Anybody but you would probably be the politically correct answer but essentially you just threw Amanda under the bus. But fortunately Amanda doesn't really listen to our own podcast either. Alright, enough of this nonsense; let's talk about you and your experience. I know all about you but for the audience members, Chuck has been on the podcast before Mark had him on when he first joined the team two and a half years ago, three years ago. And the focus of that podcast was a tiny little bit about Chuck but mostly about Chuck's due diligence experience. And I think you had a list of was it 25 due diligence tools? Chuck: Who can remember? Joe: Yeah, a lot. And it's all; if you Google Quiet Light Podcast, Chuck Mullins, due diligence you'll find it. It'd be at the top of the Google search engine and it's great stuff. And I learned a lot when I did it. But I would say I refer most people out for due diligence; buyers that is to our friend Chris Yates at Centurica. They do a great job. Well, let's talk a little bit about who you are and your life experience and a little bit of your brokering experience now that you're three years into Quiet Light. So who the heck are you? Tell us about your entrepreneurial experience. I know that you started way back when you were in college, right? Chuck: Yeah. I graduated high school in ‘96 and I always wanted a computer but we couldn't afford one. So finally for college I needed a computer so I got a computer and started a free website on it's like Angel Fire or Tripod or one of these things way back in '96. And I remember just putting up some content and that is an online library for college students. And I remember somebody offered me like 10 bucks at some point to put a link on my website. I'm like $10 awesome, I'm making money and then somebody offers me like a hundred bucks and I'm like what $100? So then I was; this is before I even had a domain so it was like AngelFire/blahblahblah. I started thinking about okay we'll buy a domain and back then they were like thirty-five bucks. I was talking to my mom and I'm like mom I'd buy a domain and she's like you're crazy you shouldn't buy you know like you're just wasting your money and why are you spending all this time in front of the computer and then it just started growing and then somebody offered me a thousand bucks. And before you know it I was making about sixteen grand a month off of advertising back in the ‘90s. Joe: In college, right? Chuck: In college; yeah, and so I was just… Joe: That's a lot of Jägermeister. Chuck: And the Internet bubble ended up bursting in like the 2000, 2001 and all that money like dried up overnight. So I was like okay now what? So I had to figure out how to pivot and myself and two other guys; we had different businesses. We all pooled together and started a membership site. The first month with our membership site we made like 60 grand. It was just like mind-blowing like oh my God we're in college. I didn't have keggers I had like full bottle; like full bar parties. Joe: Everybody wanted to be your friend, right? Chuck: It was fun and we'd stay at like the Ritz Carlton for Mardi Gras and like just do crazy things. We rented like a ski chalet; it was like a 15 bedroom house on the slopes and I forget where it was bit we then brought all of like; we had affiliates at the time, all our affiliates to come and ski with us and so we had a great time. And at some point, I was making a lot of money and I didn't really know what to do with it all. I was definitely wasting my fair share of it. Actually kind of going back, my mom, the whole thing with her telling me I shouldn't start the business and this and that in 2003 I think it was about my mom and sister cars for Christmas. Joe: I wrote that down when you said it because I knew that. You told me the story about Christmas and your mom went outside and there was a big ribbon on a brand new car. I guess she's happy you bought that domain name, after all, isn't she? Chuck: Yeah. Yeah for sure and I do not usually tell that story so maybe we'll have to edit that out. Joe: No. No editing. Tell the story. Chuck: I made two giant boxes and I had my mom like a box of some keys and she sees them and it had Lincoln in it which I had a navigator at the time and she's like oh it's a scavenger hunt he put his keys in here and she walks outside and sees this giant box and just like; my mom doesn't curse and she goes oh shit and she runs outside gets ready to tear into the box. And I said wait, mom, hold on hold on there's a card on there you've taught me better; open the card. And so she opens it and it says to my sister and my mom is like inaudible[00:12:57.1] my mom's like…well my sister is like to me? And again I wiggle the keys in front of my sister's face and she's like what?! So she runs and dives in and my mom looks at me like what this like WTF and I'm like you're over there. Then she starts walking and then sees it like buried on the other side of the house in a big box and like runs over and dives in. We're in Georgia at that time at a family house and it was cold and she didn't have shoes on. It was a great time. I've got the video. One day I'll have to share with somebody but I don't know that I want to share it. Joe: What a great experience and a great thing to do for your mother and your sister did. Did your mother get the nicer car or was it equal to both? Chuck: I was actually going to buy them the exact same car and then I was talking to my sister trying to like make sure that it was the kind of she would want and I said well what do you think Mom would like? And she said well my favorite car is a Sequoia and I ended up; my mom a Lincoln Aviator and my mom's Sequoia. They're about the same price. I think my sister was a little more but I did get some grief about that. Also the night before or a couple of nights before we went to Walmart and I bought every single piece of cheesy add on part you could get and added it to the car. So I got like a fuzzy steering wheel cover, dice, a little light-up things that go on the rims, and just totally like made the car look as ridiculous as possible and told them in order to get it they'd have to drive it with that stuff on it. Joe: That's hilarious. So for anybody that's listening instead of watching if you look at my chin and Chuck's chin you'll see some gray; there're probably a little more on mine than his of course. His is more his cheek mine's dead on center of my chin that's because of age and life experience. So you had some amazing times Chuck out of college making more money in a month than most people in this country do in a year; all web-based business experience. It's not always wonderful though. Chuck: No, absolutely not. Yeah, entrepreneurship is ups and downs. We've gotten hit by Google so many times I couldn't even tell you. And most of them were just algorithmic. But I have on one of my big businesses, we had about 12 that were all doing the same thing and one of my partners had used the same email address in our Webmaster Tools account and somebody from the spam team I guess noticed and went in and just manually penalized all of our businesses. I think except for two because those were the only two that didn't have those email addresses. And just overnight it's like poof gone and it's just like oh it's heartbreaking. At least when it's the algorithmic type of penalties it's easy to kind of; well maybe not easy but you're going to recover from that. The manual penalties, we hired somebody who used to work in the spam team. They told us what to do. We did it. We just haven't been able to recover from that on those other sites. Joe: Yeah I know it's always hard. Google algorithm updates I think are getting a little better, a little easier to handle and manage I think ultimately. I always used to say this actually if you do the right thing the way Google tells you to do it, ultimately it's not going to hurt you; the algorithm updates. And I guarantee there are people out there shaking their head no right now because a good friend of mine, he built a great business, a great, great content site, and sold it and there was a an update recently. And the buyer, another great entrepreneur bought it and did have some negative impact. What they both know is that sometimes when Google casts a wide net some of the wrong sites get caught up in it and over time that does get corrected but it does sting initially, doesn't it? Chuck: Yeah. And I will say like the reason we got caught up in a lot of the updates wasn't because we were doing the things that Google tells you to do. We were gaining the system and we deservedly got caught for doing those things and we would adjust our technique and then regain. So like one of our sites had like 100,000 pieces of unique content that we were in Google index for like 30 million pages. Joe: Wow. Chuck: So like how does one do that? Joe: How does one do that? Good Lord. Chuck: Trickery. Joe: Well the grey in your chin has matured you to the point that I think you're beyond the trickery because you look at the long term cash flow and benefits of owning an online business now it's not just a quick cash anymore. At least that's the way I look at it; you too? Chuck: Yeah, absolutely. And you're talking about like the algorithm updates and I feel like there's been so many and that most of the really garbage sites have probably gotten taken out by now. I feel like, and maybe I'm wrong but now it's more of like just tweaking the knobs a little bit. So unless you're in one of these like fringe business models I tend to believe and I could be 100% wrong but I tend to believe that most of the major algorithm updates have been already done and then now they're going after I guess like medical websites and things like that. Joe: Yeah. The updates are far further I'm sure in between and in many cases not as severe. Alright so I'm going to throw a question at you. I don't know if I told you this story or not or if you've heard it. Some of the audience members might have heard it so I'm going to just test your algorithm update knowledge. And if you answer within two seconds then I know you heard the story. So I bought a business, I sold my business in November 2010; yada, yada, yada. People have heard this a million times, or at least tens of hundreds of thousands of times if they've listened to every episode and keep downloading everything. No we haven't done 100,000 episodes that's totally inaccurate. I can't do math by the way apparently. Alright so I bought a content site. I sold a great site. The content was amazing. And then I bought a piece of junk. I had 42 amazing days. I bought it March 1st, 2012. I had maybe 3 or 4 keywords on the first page of Google and then boom they fell to the bottom of page 1 and then page 2 and they were gone and I lost over a quarter-million dollars in the course of twelve months. What happened? What algorithm update was that? It was; again I bought it March 1st, 2012; I had forty-two amazing days. Chuck: Panda. Penguin. Joe: Penguin. Alright, you're close. We're going to have to throw that quiz out there. Everybody in the audience wouldn't throw that quiz out there for a price. Chuck's wearing a beautiful Quiet Like Brokerage…is that a polo shirt? Chuck: Yeah. Joe: We need to get some of those packaged up and give away prizes for that kind of stuff. Alright let's jump on to your Quiet Light Brokerage life; your entrepreneurial life, amazing ups and downs, a lot of great ups and you did some good things for family and friends. The downs, we learn from them and we try to take those lessons and make sure that we are really bringing great listings to market so the buyers are making good safe investments and the sellers of those investments can move on with peace of mind to their next adventures whether that's another business or retirement. In your history of transactions here at Quiet Light, is there any particular niche that you gravitate towards and enjoy more than another because as you said a ton of content and affiliate experience, but I think some of your larger deals have been physical product e-commerce sites. But is there anything that stands out for you? Chuck: Yeah I mean so my heart is in like membership sites. I love recurring revenue. I think everybody does and that's why the multiples are higher because of that recurring revenue and the predictability. So I would say that that's kind of where I'd like to be but my biggest sales have been around physical products inaudible[00:20:53.3] an outdoor sporting equipment one that was great. One that I really love that I sold like six months ago was a company that did custom-tailored suits. That thing it's like awesome. Who doesn't want to say they have a business that sells custom-tailored suits? Like it's just; I think it's got the cool factor. Joe: That's the amazing thing about what you do and what we do at Quiet Light is that we come to this role with a lifetime of experience that; I was talking with Walker and Brad about this recently that we didn't know it but all of our entrepreneurial life was preparing us for this role. And now we get to experience so many cool different business models. You come to this role with a ton of membership experience but custom-tailored suits and you're like that's the coolest thing. Who doesn't want to say they own a custom-tailored suit business? I need to buy a custom-tailored suit. I know who bought it and I can reach out to him. I know who he is too. Speaking of that I do want to ask a random question although its timing is not very random and you have to answer this. There's only one answer to this. This buyer listens to the podcast and he comments and he tells us about us sometimes when he's riding his bike. So do you have a favorite audience member that also happens to be a buyer? Yes or no? You have to say yes and you have to say his name now because he's a… Chuck: Sure. Mike Nuñez. Joe: There you go; Mike Nuñez, this is just a shout out to you. Thanks for listening Mike. Chuck: Well I'll tell you it shouldn't just be a shout out to him. If anybody wants to know how to be a good buyer and how to buy businesses they should talk to Mike Nuñez because he is 100% the absolute best buyer I have. And not like just in a sense of like the actual acquisition of the company. When he gets on a phone call and talks to the sellers he makes them feel like they are the only person in the world; the most important person like he's just so smooth and he's not doing it as like a ploy or a gimmick. He's just a nice guy and he really appreciates these people and the businesses they've created. And it's just he's really good on a call. Joe: It's the unknown secret that we tell all the time to buyers. Look, when it's a great business it's a great opportunity. There are going to be multiple buyers. And it's not always the most money or the most cash that gets the letter of intent. In some cases, it's the buyer that the seller likes the most. And being likable on those conference calls is critically important. Mike does it very well. Chuck: And one of my businesses; actually I think two of them that Mike purchased, the sellers actually said like I want to sell to him. Make him buy this. It doesn't matter; I mean within reason, right? The price; but they were willing to take less than somebody else because they liked him so much. Joe: Oh boy. Now if Mike's listening and he paid full price now he's going to be like inaudible[00:23:49.1]. Chuck: That is the problem because of course I did make him pay more than the other people but they were willing to take less. And what's funny is one of my sellers told him as much oh like I would have taken less from you and I'm like don't say that to him. Joe: In his heart, he was willing to take less but his checkbook and his head was willing to take the highest bidder as long as it was Mike Nunez. That's the key. In your experience both as an entrepreneur and as an adviser here at Quiet Light you've seen a lot of businesses that have come up for first they reach out to us for a valuation, they start thinking about an exit sometimes the day before they want to exit, sometimes months or a year or so in advance. What do you see being the biggest thing; most consistent thing that those particular entrepreneurs do wrong time and time again that there's just if there's one thing you could just like shout into the microphone right now to everyone listening even though some of them are doing it right, what are the majority of folks not doing that that you want them to do to bring more value to their business? Chuck: Silence question. Joe: Yeah it was a long one. I kept rambling on in my sentences because I could see you thinking. Chuck: Yeah. Joe: Maybe I should have asked a little more. Chuck: What's weird about at Quiet Light is we actually get so many great businesses to sell. People bring us quality things. So what are some of the bad things people do? Joe: Let me just get some stats behind that though; because it's true what we bring to market, it's great stuff. But the reality is Chuck if you look at my numbers I've closed 105, 106 transactions in seven years. People say well that's not very many but in order to close those transactions; I've ballparked the math and I've talked to 2,500 entrepreneurs. That's 2,500 valuation calls. Your stats are similar. What is that consistent theme that if you could speak to somebody that someday may sell their business what should they be doing? Chuck: Sure. So when we talk about like specific like product-level things like when people are just selling random shots keys that aren't unique in any way; those are really difficult to sell. When you have an actual unique product that's got some sort of a brand to it that's not easily knock off-able that there's a moat around it like that makes it so much more desirable to people and so much more valuable. One of the things I also see probably is just P & L's; having clean P & L's. Oftentimes people's profit and loss statements are just a complete mess. They'll lump, they want to save; I was just thinking about a specific one, but you see people are just lumping things in because they know they had a cost but they don't really know when it was or where it was and they just kind of guesstimate things and put them in the wrong ones. So then you'll see like really lumpy P & L's. And we always try to work with people to flatten those out and figure out where the real costs are. So that often takes a lot of time to just figure out what the true P & L is on a business. And for doing add backs; what's a real add back? We fight with people a lot on what's a real add back versus something they think they should be adding back. Joe: Yeah I want to just step in and shout out that there's no question I think that preparing your business for sale is the number one thing that people don't do. They decide to sell as I say instead of planning to sell. That means they work their tail off. They launch this business. They work like crazy against all odds. They succeed. And it's producing solid revenue and profit for them. And they just burn the candle at both ends and then the candle starts to burn out. And they're emotionally tired, they're frustrated, they're exhausted, and they wake up one morning I'm just not into this. I'm going to sell. I didn't know I could sell but it just occurred to me. I'm done. I'm calling Chuck Mullins. And at that point because they're tired; because they're emotionally worn out they need to sell because trends will go down. They won't do the things that they need to do to keep the business growing and strong and in great shape for somebody else to take over. And so at that point you get those P & L's and you're like yeah Excel is not really accounting software. Ideally Quick Books and Xero or one of the other so that we can run a historical P & L and do year over year trend analysis and look at the metrics. All that is really hard and then there's the commingling. So I'm going to just mention a podcast; not ours, somebody else's. EcomCrewPodcast247. Chuck as you know I sold Mike Jackness' business ColorIt last spring. And Mike is a bright guy. Mike knew exactly what to do as most people in this audience do. They know what to do. And the mindset that Mike had was simply I'll get to it someday. What happens is you end up chasing too many rabbits and that someday comes when you get exhausted and in his case, he had four brands under one LLC and three of them were really not sellable at the time that we decide to list the business. So what does that do? You've got four brands all in one LLC, tax returns commingled, and you're only selling one brand. What does that eliminate? Chuck: SBA financing. Joe: SBA financing; exactly. Is it required to get an SBA loan? No it's not to sell a business; absolutely not. We sold multimillion-dollar businesses without an SBA loan. But what it does do is it casts a broader net; buyers. And even some of those buyers; I've had it. Have you had buyers that have more than enough money to stroke a check for a multi-million dollar business but they use SBA? Chuck: Absolutely why not leverage if you can? Joe: Yeah, so that's I'd say number one. I'm in total agreement on the documentation. We always talk about that the risk, growth, transferability, and documentation; gets your numbers right, get those P & L's in great shape and it's going to help you learn about your business and set goals and then that passion may get reignited and you may do more in the business and grow it and have a bigger exit someday down the road. It's not that I don't love it when somebody calls me and says I'd like a valuation and part of that is okay, what's your timeframe, when are you ready to sell, right now. Not that I don't mind that; I love that if everything's in great shape. It's just tougher to sell it when it's not. They get a lower value, right? Chuck: Yup, absolutely. Having those four pillars and the clean books it makes a big difference. Joe: It really does. I think I'm in total agreement. Buyers or sellers of businesses, get your documents in great shape. The best way to do that, just call, email inquiries@QuietLightBrokerage.com, Chuck@QuietLightBrokerage.com. Reach out. It's a service that we provide. I mean what do we do Chuck? We help, help, help, and then keep helping, right? Chuck: Build value. Joe: Build the value. It's my; I've got a mentor that I talked to long and hard about all my business opportunities and in this particular one as we chatted about the model and what we do here at Quiet Light he's like well it just sounds like you're giving away all your knowledge for free in hopes that maybe they'll work with you. And I' like that's exactly right. We help first and we're entrepreneurs so there are times that we wish we got good advice and we were too young to listen or there was nobody around to talk to about it. And now we share that when it comes to business values and planning an exit. The number one thing you can do is just reach out to somebody. It's free. Talk to Chuck, he's got a ton of experience. Chuck: I'll tell you kind of in my entrepreneurial days if I wasn't going to be an entrepreneur I always wanted to be a consultant and help other people. And I never had like the actual desire to go out and build a portfolio and charge people to help them grow their business. But like you said I've been do this since '96. I've met so many businesses; a lot of focus on optimization and SEO and just so many things. And one of the things I actually like about is giving unsolicited advice. So when I'm on all these valuation calls I'm constantly asking people like oh have you tried this, have you thought about this? So even if they're not ready to sell I'm often giving people advice on how to increase their business. And even when I do have listings like I think of one and particularly like I give him so many ideas and then he did those and the business just kept growing. That actually came to bite me because the business grew so much that we ended up pulling it off the market after getting multiple full-price offers because it just had grown so much and he wanted to just wait a little bit and we're going to actually getting ready to relist that here soon. Joe: It's a good problem, right? I mean I've been in situations that you say it bit you but ultimately this is a long term play for us; it's building relationships and that person respects and appreciates you obviously because he's coming back for some of your entrepreneurial life experience and it's benefited them financially. It's going to grow the business and ultimately they're going to get a bigger value and tell people about what you did. So that was a little bit more about the sellers and the things that they can do and then number one I think we both agree, plan that exit; call somebody, e-mail somebody, get a valuation. It's not going to hurt. What about buyers; biggest mistakes that buyers can make? Chuck: Disrespecting somebody's business. So getting on a call and like; I'm trying to think of a of a PC term that I could use that's not a profanity, just talking smack about somebody's business, trying to negotiate them down in price, and like trash-talking the business. That doesn't work. At least not at this size but maybe it works when you're dealing with a couple hundred million dollar business or something. I don't know. But at these levels, people care about their businesses at least the ones we sell. Inaudible[00:33:38.9] and when you talk smack like… Joe: It's personal even at the 15 to 20 million mark. Mark just closed one just under 15 million. It's owned by an individual. When you're talking about a hundred million, yes somebody is up there at the top like their shareholders and the CEOs and COOs and all that and big-time attorneys are in there negotiating. It's not you're talking to the guy across the table that actually built it and owns it for the most part, right? So he cares about it. Chuck: He worries about it like he's had the baby. I mean you wouldn't believe how many people I've talked to; sellers that cry on the phone about their business like it happens a lot. People are deeply invested emotionally in their business. When somebody comes in and disrespects it for no reason other than they're trying to negotiate, it doesn't go well. You need to be nice. That's what Mike does so well. And I want to keep talking about Mike. Well like… Joe: Should we talk about Walker again? Chuck: He's about people and he's nice. Joe: Let's talk about Walker again then. Actually you're absolutely right. I remember being at the Rhodium Weekend Conference before you were a member of the team here at Quiet Light. Now he's up presenting and talking and I could swear in that environment and I used the word that begins with an A and ends with an E; figure it out, folks. Everybody's got one. And what's the secret to being a great buyer? And I said don't be one; as simple as that. I can see you out there in the audience shaking your head up and down. And that's exactly right. Mike is very nice, very kind. When I sold my business I had people that were well I remember one, in particular, ripping my business to shreds on a conference call; initial call and I'm like why am I even talking to this guy. I'm not selling it to him even if he gives me an offer over asking. And then, strangely enough, the last call, the person that ended up buying my business first thing he said is thanks for creating such a great site. Your products have helped people exactly like me. By the way I took stuff like this and I ran the Boston Marathon actually the Chicago Marathon last month and it's because of products like yours and I said cool. It was actually a really short call; 20-minute call. I didn't ask any great questions I had going on. That was really nice but I don't see he's buying my business and he almost; he bought it almost full price offer. Chuck: I'll tell you what you just mentioned something that is often overlooked. When you get on these calls don't just wing it; do some research, educate yourself before the call, and ask the right questions. It's so important. So many times I get on a call and the seller or the buyer doesn't ask any decent questions and the seller just writes them off and says let's not take any more calls from that person. They weren't serious. So make sure that you understand the business and you're asking good questions that a good buyer would ask, right? Joe: Yeah. They don't have to be the most intelligent questions the seller has ever heard but that you've done your research and you care. I mean yeah Chuck you put there together a great package and all the great questions are in there. They just have to dig into them and digest it a little bit and ask the same question in their voice and see if you get the same or similar answer from the client on it. I think that's great. I think you're absolutely right. Too many times there has been a few buyers that they're not prepared for. You can hear them walking down the street getting in the car and it just feels like a complete and utter waste of everyone's time including the person who's making the call and asking the questions. Okay, is there anything else; before we wrap up is there anything else you'd like to say about Walker Diebel? Chuck: Visit WalkerDiebel.guru to check out his new book that's coming out in a couple of months. Joe: Let's do this; actually everybody do is too. Go to IMDB and look up Walker Diebel the actor and watch some of the movies he's been in. Add a review, let's see if we can boost that one-star rating up to one and a half. Chuck: Inaudible[00:37:37.6] tomatoes maybe. Joe: Alright Chuck, you're a good man. I appreciate you coming on. We'll wrap it up here with time. Any last thoughts for anybody out there thinking about selling their business or buying one; any last pearls of wisdom and I know I didn't prepare you but any last-minute pearls of wisdom? Chuck: Yeah. I would just say that reach out early. We're not here to be high pressure as far as trying to sign you to sell your business. We're here to lead with value. We're going to offer some hopefully some wisdom that's going to help you sell that business in the future. So don't think that like oh I don't want to reach out because I'm not going to sell it for six months or a year. Talk to us now. Let us help you get the business in shape to sell it later. Joe: Great advice. That's Chuck Mullins folks. We will be back in the next podcast. See you soon. Thanks, Chuck. Chuck: Bye-bye. Thanks.   Links and Resources: Chuck Mullins Chuck's LinkedIn Walker Deibel's IMDB

This week we are talking about add backs, what is a legitimate add back, and how they affect your business valuation. The value of a business is dependent on earnings but it is also dependent on the company's discretionary earnings such as the add backs of owner salary and benefits. Then there are those one-offs – those non-recurring expenses which are also known as add backs. Those are the add backs what we are dissecting on today's episode. A seller's due diligence when it comes to discretionary earnings can help buyers see their potential ROI without any grey area. Episode Highlights: Why we work off the seller's discretionary earnings and what that is. How discretionary earnings are a case by case calculation for each business. The three levels of add backs. Why it's important to take a scalpel to those third level add backs. Questionable add backs – what can fly what cannot. How math and logic are the key tools to determine legitimate add backs. Transcription: Mark: Alright, welcome back Joe. I know you just came back from Blue Ribbon Mastermind; Ezra's event. It was up in Seattle, is that right? Joe: Yeah, a beautiful city and a great event. On a personal level, I had a great time. I took my 17-year-old with me and just explored the city in off-hours. Business-wise I'm telling you Ezra Firestone is sort of the Tony Robbins of the e-commerce world in my view. He gets up there, he's real, he says it like it is, he shares his own information to the Blue Ribbon Mastermind members and it's such actionable, transferable information. And the level of entrepreneurs and intelligence at the Blue Ribbon Mastermind I think is nearly unmatched; it goes very politically correct I think, right, nearly unmatched? Mark: Yes. I think every conference that we come back from is our latest favorite conference. But Blue Ribbon and Ezra's events have been fantastic since we started going to them. And you're right he's just a fantastic guy. He gives a ton of information and has a ton of insight to share. So one of these days I'm going to get to go to the event instead of you because I want to get in on some of these. Awesome, glad to have you back, we do have a couple of conferences coming up. We will be sending these out in our email; our newsletters that go out every Thursday or Friday depending on when we get our stuff together so pay attention to those. Alright, this week Joe you and I are going to do the podcast. Joe: That's right we have two very special guests. Mark: Two very special guests; that's right. We're not bringing anybody else in on this one because we want to talk about add backs; what is a valid add back or what is a legitimate add back? And I know for a buying perspective this can be a little jarring the first time. If you're just coming into the acquisitions industry; if you're looking for your first acquisition and you look at a profit and loss statement that we provide you might be wondering well why are these guys throwing all these expenses back at me, these were on the tax returns shouldn't they be included? So Joe why don't we start with that? Why do we work off to this number of seller's discretionary earnings and what is seller's discretionary earnings? Joe: That's a good question and a great place to start. Just defining it simply is the best way to go. So when you're running a profit loss statement as a business owner; hopefully in Quick Books or Xero or something like that, you're going to get a net income line at the bottom. So let's say you do it for the trailing 12 months you get a net income. But there are certain owner benefits that you get as the owner of the business. You have an Internet-based business; you may write your car off in that business. You may pay yourself $200,000 salary in the business. All sorts of things like that they're generally owner benefits and then there are some one-time non-recurring expenses; these are things that do not carry forward to the new owner so they're classified as add backs. So net income plus add backs equals seller's discretionary earnings or SDE. It is what business is in this general category are multiplied by; they're valued at a multiple of the trailing 12 months seller's discretionary earnings. So that's the critical nature of an add back; it can make a tremendous difference in the value of the business when using a proper formula. If you don't do that the add backs properly you're either going to under inflate or in some cases, unfortunately, some inexperienced brokers might over-inflate the value of your business. So it's critical for both buyers and sellers to know how to calculate seller's discretionary earnings and what is a valid or legitimate add back. Mark: Yeah and I think on that the thing I would like to just add here and emphasize is that there are rules to seller's discretionary earnings. I know I've talked to some sellers, I've talked to some other brokers frankly outside of Quiet Light Brokerage and they feel as if well if you can make an argument for it then we can add it back and they approach this almost as if it's just a free for all as to who can make the best argument. The fact of the matter is there is an actual definition for seller's discretionary earnings and there are rules to follow. Now that doesn't mean that there aren't some situations that require interpretation. And we're going to go into some of those scenarios in this podcast today where you have to try and figure out is this a legitimate add back or not? But at the heart of seller's discretionary earnings when we are showing seller's discretionary earnings what we want to do is we want to show a baseline number for buyers to understand what is my potential return on investment? When you think about all the different buyers that are going to look at a potential opportunity, every buyer comes with their own set of assumptions, right? Some buyers might already have infrastructures set up to run a business; maybe they already have a marketing team in place or maybe they' already have a warehouse if it's an e-commerce business or if it's a SaaS business maybe they already have a development team in place. Those assumptions need to be worked into their own evaluation of the business. What we want to show is a baseline number so that you as a buyer can figure out what your potential return on investment is for you. And that's going to vary from one buyer to the next. So seller's discretionary earnings that's all it is; it's a baseline number, we want to be consistent from one business to the next that's why there are rules as to how we calculate this number. Joe: Right and even though combined we've got 20 years of experience doing this and have sold well over a hundred million in transactions just the 2 of us combined it's still a case by case basis and you got to dig into each particular business and get an understanding of the nuances of it to determine whether or not it's worth doing an add back based upon the size of the business and the total number of add backs and if it should be done. Generally speaking, there are 3 different levels of add backs; the first 2 are pretty standard, it's the third one that we want to spend the most time on today because of the nuances of them. But let's run through that first and second level. Mark, if you want to start off with that first level why don't you address the owner's salaries in add back. Mark: Yeah, absolutely. Joe, I like the format you put together here. You created these 3 levels of add backs; the obvious, the one time expenses, and then the ones that require a bit more interpretation. So the very top of the list here are these a level one obvious add backs. We have things like charitable donations; obviously, that's purely discretionary nature. We have accounting expenses such as amortization and depreciation. And then we have one owner salary. And I know there are buyers out there that look at this and say well why are you adding back somebody's salary; like you need to pay yourself some money? But this is a standard add back that we always include and it's part of the standard definition for seller's discretionary earnings. The reason for this is how you pay yourself as an owner, how much you pay yourself, and the format you pay yourself is completely discretionary. You could in theory not pay yourself any salary and just take distributions from the company from the profits. Or you can pay yourself a very large salary and run all your payroll tax through that which will show up on the profit and loss statement. What we do for the owner's discretionary earnings we do add back one owner salary. But there is an exception to this and that's if there's multiple owners that are working full time on the business. Because we know that if there's multiple owners working on a business you can't add back all of their salary. You can only add back one. Did I explain that well Joe or does that need more? Joe: Let's go a little bit more. What happens; what do you do Mark if you have 2 owners that are working a combined 25 hours a week, one is doing customer service and logistics, and the other is doing sales and marketing. Do you add them both back? Mark: I would add both those back. Joe: Okay. Let's flip it up; let's say that one is doing sales, marketing, logistics, and the other is a developer. And the level of work that that developer does still only takes 15, 20 hours a week but it takes a different skill set than the average person has. Do you add them both back? Mark: No, I would not add both those back. Although we will discuss this in Level 3 add back. I might adjust that second owner salary depending on what they're getting. But the reason I wouldn't do it is because of the specialized nature of it. So what we're assuming here is that the buyer is a single person who is coming in and needs to run this business. I wouldn't expect most buyers to have developer skills to run a business. So maybe you do; if you do, that's great you're going to do really, really well. But most people can't be that sales and marketing plus developer role. I've done this for over a dozen years now. I've run across that skill set a handful of times. It's not very, very common. Joe: That's right. So those are the; even though these are just Level 1 add backs there are some complexities to it that require some attention to detail on the nuances of one business to the next. The only other things that are pretty obvious in there are personal meals and entertainment, travel, mobile home…mobile phones; everybody's got their own mobile phone that expense doesn't charge for. You've already got that expense. Things of that nature are pretty much Level 1 add backs. Jumping on the Level 2 add backs it's really focused on those one-time expenses; things like a trademark or a copyright, patents, things of that nature. And then there are some that are a little bit deeper like legal expenses and lawsuits and enforcement letters and things of that nature even the thing that we have to do often Mark which is referring potential clients; people that we do valuations for that are not using a kind of software. We'll refer them out to a bookkeeper. So in this situation Mark, tell me if we're on the same page. We will get a call somebody has got a great business but they've got 3 years of data in an Excel spreadsheet that is not using any accounting software. Or they might be using Fetcher and piecing different pieces together. I would refer them out to a bookkeeper like CapForge, MuseMinded, Stellar Accounting, Catching Clouds; one of those and get them on Quick Books or Xero. And generally, that's a one time expense for them to build that, put that data in the software in arrears maybe $1,500, $2,000. To me, that is without a doubt a one-time expense and an add back; would you agree with that? Mark: Yeah I would and I'm glad that we agreed because if we don't it's just going to be an absolute brawl on the podcast, right? Inaudible[00:11:27.2] here is fighting with the microphones. No, absolutely that would be a one time expense. It's something that does not carry forward. But we have a great example of that with somebody who's been a friend of Quiet Light Brokerage for a while; Scott Deetz from Northbound Group. He's a strategic advisor who helps clients in a lot of ways. He does a fantastic job with his clients. Specifically a lot of Amazon stores but he also works with other companies as well. He does forecasting and a lot of preparation for an exit. And his fees are all one time expenses. Even though that you can see a monthly fee during that preparation, the goal is to prepare for an exit. So those are fees that get added back in the bottom line. So recasting books going back and trying to recast those books either in accrual format or just cleaning them up I would totally consider that to be a one time expense. As with the other things that you mentioned; the trademarks and the logo design, you shouldn't be punished for the expenses that are really necessary to be able to run the business or only occur once or will occur in the future.   Joe: Yeah. And there is again always nuances; sometimes an owner is going to buy a new computer. But it's their new laptop that they use and they're going to keep that and it's not going to carry for you then that's a one time expense; things of that nature, a case by case basis from business. So again nuances, deep-diving into the business, no 2 are alike. Mark: I have been hearing you say this for a long time our own kind of sliding into this Level 3. But in Level 3 you always say math and logic Mark; it's for math and logic. What makes sense? How does the math work out? And look this actually works out for Level1 and Level 2 as well. You have to use math and logic. But Level 3 is where we start getting into the interpretation of different expenses, right? Because these are the grey area ones where maybe it's not as straightforward as saying amortization and depreciation; that's a pretty obvious add back. Charitable donations; pretty obvious add back. So let's go into this Level 3 and get some examples on a case by case basis. Here are things that we've seen in the past which; look at Quiet Light we've actually had some pretty big discussions with all of the advisors of Quiet Light that we have this large group chats and sometimes we've disagreed in trying to work out how we should actually treat these expenses. And I want to start out with one that Joe you and I have talked about a lot and that would be events, trade shows, and Mastermind fees; how do you handle those? Joe: I almost moved this to the bottom of the list so we didn't start off with one that is pretty tough and it was talked about a lot. This is a case by case basis. If somebody joins a Mastermind group in the trailing 12 months prior to selling their business and they pay $20,000 to join that group, it's a one time expense; absolutely an add back, it kind of moves up to Level 2. But let's say they also choose to go to an annual event that that Mastermind group has. And they do that at their own expense; let's say they go to Seattle, I was just at Blue Ribbon, those people that were in Blue Ribbon; I'm sorry at the Seattle event not all of them were at the Miami event just 6 months prior and so it's definitely a choice to go to the event or not. Some people never go. There are lots of people that are in eCommerceFuel that we've never met because they never go to any of the events. So the choice to go to an event, it's an expense that doesn't carry forward. It's one that I see as an add back. Our team has talked about it quite a bit; that's an add back. But there are other types of Masterminds and events; we'll call them events in this situation that are not add backs that you and I have talked about. So if you are an advertising agency or any kind of company that's going to these events to build your company brand and reputation even amongst the people that are part of the Mastermind it's integral to your business. Like us, we go and we sponsor. That's integral to our business; our business models. We are sponsoring, we're getting our own brand and our own name out there; that's not an add back. An ad agency does the same but might just be a member of the Mastermind or events and is doing training courses in free valuations or free testing things of that nature we would have to really dig down into that one and determine if it's an add back or not. And it's probably not an add back. But for the rest of the folks most likely an add back; the only adjustment you and I have talked about that is we'd have to look at and say logically does it make sense to add this back? Do we have 2 lines of add backs? Is it a business that's valued at 250,000 or 2.5 million? Sometimes you say you know what at this level it's not worth adding it back; let's just leave it alone it's only going to add you another $300 per month back to it and you can play with a multiple in that situation. Would you agree? Mark: Yeah I absolutely agree. You have to pick your battles on this and if you have to really fight to be able to justify an add back you should look at it and say is it really worth it? Like is it is a big enough expense where I'm going to gain enough potential value out of adding it back and making that argument. I want to throw a little wrinkle at you, Joe. We have not discussed this before and it's a question that I'd like to get your opinion on. The difference I see between these Mastermind fees, events, travel-related expenses would fall under this idea of is it a personal development or business development, right? I don't add back the business books I buy. The business books I buy are personal development and I consider that to be just for myself. Obviously, there's a business application for that. I want to become better at what I'm doing but I think that's more personal related. So the line I see is again this idea between is it development for business or is it personal development? So if I go to Pubcon without really putting Quiet Light name on it I'm just an attendee I would consider that to be a valid add back. Let's go into a scenario where you have an employee; let's say that you have somebody who works specifically as a content writer for you and is possibly doing SEO and you send them to MASCON because you want them to become better at SEO for the purpose of your business. How would you handle something like that? Joe: It's off the top my head not an add back. But then you've got to look at the history of the business because that's business development, right? You got to look at the history of it; is that something that they're going to do every year, are they're going to get new information every year and develop their skills, are they going to send different employees, have they done it for the last 2 or 3 years? You got to look at all those nuances again and determine whether or not it's an add back. But because it falls in that business development versus personal development I think you and I know everybody on the team would lean towards no that's not an add back. Mark: I would agree. So again this is where you have to kind of take a fine scalpel here and kind of slice this up and really understand what's going on behind this add back. And again as you went out with this Joe math and logic and I think reason as well. You have to be sort of reasonable with some of these so that it's not just you're going through; sometimes I see sellers come back with their own add back schedules and they're super aggressive and every last dime is trying to be added back. And it's a question at some point where you have to ask them what can we really say is a reasonable add back versus just being as aggressive as possible? Joe: Right. So let's take that scalpel and dig down into a P & L for instance; of course we're not doing it live here, but one of the things that that when you peel back the different layers that we always ask the question okay you're spending a lot of money on advertising here; what type of credit card are you using for that advertising? And then are you getting points back on that, what are you doing with those points? 9 times out of 10 people are doing cashback credit cards or converting them over to travel but they're pushing all that over on the personal side of that's an owner benefit. It's income, right? You're getting cash back, you spend $10,000 you get $400 back. If you spend $10,000 a month on advertising and you get that $400 back and you slide it over to your personal side and it never shows up on your profit and loss statement we need to look at it closely. It's an add back. You can multiply that times whatever number you want and then make the decision, right Mark whether it's worth it to add that back or not. Jason and I had a listing that we worked on last fall where there were about $24,000 in cashback points added up over the course of 12 months and it was very, very measurable; clear and distinct because that person spent a lot of money on advertising plus he bought used inventory that was going to be refurbished. And he bought them from different places on the web. And all of that was done with a credit card. All of that was converted to cashback points that moved over to his personal side; amounted to about $25,000 on an annual basis. It's a significant number. The business was listed at a 4 time multiple. It was cash in his pocket so we did add that back and it bumped the valuation by $100,000. If we're talking about a business that's $4M but that amounts to $3,000 then maybe you don't add it back. You just got to play around with those numbers a little bit and again use more math and logic there. Mark: Yeah and I think here that the key that I would look at would be the consistency of it. If you're advertising budget is over $100,000 a month for example and you're putting that on your Amex gold card and part of your strategy is look I'm getting some margin from the points I'm getting back; that's pretty obvious in that category of its part of your existing business model. But like you said if you have just kind of a small amount of points, it's probably not worth the effort to put that in there and try and justify that. So I think that's pretty reasonable. Joe one question that we hear a decent amount would be website redesigns and we can also throw in here product development or even in the SaaS world development on a SaaS product. Why don't we start to unpack some of these and we'll start with the website redesigns. Obviously, most people who have a web-based business unless you're purely Amazon have a website and part of that is you're going to have to redesign the website every now and then. I mean there are some sites out there that have look exactly the same since 2000 but most businesses do update that and those can be expensive. You can easily drop 10, 20, 30, $40,000 on that if not more. So how would you approach website redesigns or website redevelopments? Joe: I would look at the history in the P & L to get a clue of the way the business has been run because that's the way it's going to be operated in the future. And if there's never been a website redesign and it's on a good current up to date platform like Shopify and the business is trending in all the right directions then; obviously there's been a website redesign because that's the point of this add back so let's say that it's been done in the last 12 months but had never been done before and the business is 7 or 8 years old and it's just been put on a new platform and they spent $20,000 on it I would say that; and I have in the past done 100% add-back on that website redesign. But again it varies from business to business. If I'm looking at a business that's operated like Quiet Light Brokerage just by example you have a tendency to redesign the website often. I think there's been 3 or 4 versions of it in the last 7 years that I've been with Quiet Light. So, in that case, it's either simply not an add back or you do some math and let's say you're going to redesign a website every 3 years you might take that cost; $10,000 website redesign and add back 50% of it or a third of it and things of that nature. Because if it happened in the last 12 months it's not an expense that's going to happen in the next 12 months so there has to be some mathematical adjustment there. And again math and logic; look how often it's been redesigned, do the math on when in the future would you redesign again, and just do partial adjustment more often than not. Mark: Yeah, I would agree 100%. And the thing to look for here obviously if it's on the last 12 months it probably isn't going to get looked at too closely. But I think you have to look at why. Like the Quiet Light website gets redesigned a decent amount and that's simply because I get anxious about stuff like that. That's just kind of what I do. I'm always tweaking; always thinking that I should dust scraps and start it over again. And so I actually do think with Quiet Light it's mostly discretionary in nature but again this reasonableness needs to come in. Joe: Not always discretionary but it takes 12 months every time that you start. Mark: It's absolutely ridiculous. Joe: Why don't you touch on product development? It's interesting you bring that up. I've got a physical products e-commerce business and I'm developing new products; do I get to add that cost back? Mark: Yeah I think again we need to use math and logic here, a little bit of reasonableness, take a look at what type of business you are in. Here's the thing about e-commerce; Chad Reuben when he was on the podcast about a year ago mentioned this, product development is the lifeblood of most e-commerce businesses; you rarely, rarely run across a business that is truly evergreen with its product or you never have to iterate. Apple comes out with an iPhone every year. Android products are constantly coming out with a new phone every year. Car companies constantly come out with a new car every single year. Product development is the lifeblood of businesses. So on that note no I don't think that you can add back product development costs. I do think maybe if you're coming out with like a large truly one time sort of burst maybe I would look at it. Joe: Maybe if there's a mold, right? If you paid $5,000 for a mold of that product that mold is going to last 10, 20 years perhaps. That mold maybe partial add back but yeah I'm 100% on the same page; product development is the lifeblood of a business. The molds thing is so rare; 105 businesses I think I've sold in the last 7 years and I think maybe only Sean van der Wilt's business has actual molds that are part of it and that he owned. In other cases, it's generally the manufacturer that has the mold anyway. So yeah adding back product development expenses can't really do it. What about the SaaS development? We're not all e-commerce here; we're selling content and SaaS and things of that nature as well. You've got a developer that's been doing some certain projects within the last 12 months; are you adding that back? Is that black and white? Mark: It is not black and white but I do think that if you are looking at for example your initial build of the software that's going to be very intense, very cost-intensive. That I think could be added back. Regular maintenance, regular feature updates; absolutely not because a SaaS business needs to have updates, needs to have new features added. If you're going to redevelop the entire SaaS product from the ground up; maybe you're switching technology stacks, that's something where I would take a look at that and again reason and logic need to really…math and logic really need to reign with this. But generally speaking no; just as product development is the lifeblood of an e-commerce business, software development is the lifeblood of a SaaS business. Joe: We are 100% on the same page. There is no question about it. Mark: No fights here, thank goodness. Joe: Yeah. We've got 3 points left and really the last 2 points I think are ones that get missed most often and can add a tremendous amount of value to the business. But the first one of the 3 here is pretty obvious and maybe we could have we actually talked about moving this up into Level 1 but it's a repaid relative. I sold a business a couple of years ago where the owner of the business paid his brother to do customer service. They paid him $20 an hour for 20 hours a week worth of work. I talked to the brother. I talked about his job and what he did. He said yeah I really only put in about 5 hours a week. Most of what I do is automated; it's canned responses with customer service. And so we talked about the work and the level of detail there and just added some logic there and some math and said look you are grossly overpaid. Your brother loves you. I'm going to suggest that he fires you; and again this is just before Christmas, of course, he didn't. Mark: Oh my you told him to fire his brother. We've talked about this before. Joe: I know. It was a $10,000 add back or whatever the number was. So we just did some math, right? We said alright how much does it cost to get a really good high-quality virtual assistant; $4 or $5 an hour. Okay, let's double that. We know you're only working 5 hours a week but we're going to go with you 20 hours a week times whatever the number is and we're going to add it back. So instead of the $20 an hour times 20 hours we took $10 an hour on those 20 hours a week and we added back the adjustment there. It's in black in white in the add back section with an explanation of why. So math and logic applied to a situation like that; that overpaid relative and it absolutely works and is am add back. And it has to be a big enough number to be an add back. In this case, the total add back was a pretty sizable number. So pretty clear there in my view would you agree with that on Mark? Mark: Yeah I had a guy who had a really cool business. His mom was doing his bookkeeping and he was paying her $250,000 a year for her bookkeeping services. Joe: What? Mark: That's a pretty expensive bookkeeper. That's a pretty obvious case of look it's a relative; he's paying his mom good for him, what a great son; better son than I am to my mom, and pretty obvious add back. And look I'm going to tie in something that we had from Level 1 here and that is where you have 2 owners and you brought up the example one owner is business development and marketing, sales and marketing and the other one is a developer. And I said well we should take a look at that developer side probably and probably not add back his salary but you've got to take a look at how much is he getting paid. I'm dealing with a client who has that sort of set up and the developer side; they're both getting paid the same amount of money and it's basically the profits of the business. We're going to add back in a reasonable and a pretty generous salary for a replacement development. And that's kind of the way that we would look at that is what is a replacement cost? You don't want to be super aggressive on that. It's got to be reasonable. It might be a little bit generous to say here's what the replacement of this person would cost. So you can do that with relatives. It can get a little bit tricky. I had one company that I dealt with where literally the company was basically run by this guy's family which brought up some issues with the transferability of the business. Because there were so many people involved that were family related but they were all getting these big fat paychecks. And so if we had gone to market; we didn't go to market with that one but we would have had to go in and try to find reasonable replacement costs for most of these people which will be then a little tricky. Joe: Yeah. Look, I can assure all sellers out there; all business owners that are smart enough to do some thinking and planning in advance of a sale, your buyers are going to be intelligent people that are going to be thorough and diligent. And doing that logical adjustment that Mark just talked about for that developer who's your business partner that is a non-transferable skill you've got to hire that out. You're just going to have to do that and it's going to help build trust and help you achieve your goals in getting your business sold. If we have to push the multiple if it makes sense because there's other amazing trends in the business then we can push the multiple a little higher as long as it's still within a reasonable area. The next add back is one that I just did this year as an example with Mike Jackness when we sold Color It. And I'm going to go ahead and mention the podcast series that Mike and I did because I think it's invaluable for both buyers and sellers to listen to and Mark I'm going to just tell you right now I think that you and I did a decent job in doing the intro for the podcast and then me doing an interview with Mike on our podcast. Mike did a much better job on his podcast. So I'm going to point people… Mark: They're actually pros at this. They're very good at it. We're just kind of fly by the seat of their pants. Joe: Yeah. He did an amazing job. And he actually did a series of 4 in total; 2 of them were with me and the one at the beginning one at the end was with his staff, his staff down in the Philippines before and after the sale. So he went through the whole arc. But it's episode 247 of the EcomCrew Podcast and the first one was Preparing Your Business For Sale and the second one was What It Was Like Going Through Due Diligence And Actually Getting It Sold. Now one of the things that we focused on in Mike's add back schedule was cost of goods sold. Let me give some just general numbers here; broad examples, these aren't actually from his business but let's say that what he did do was he renegotiated the cost of goods sold on one particular ASIN. He could have done it on more if he had planned in advance of selling his business instead of deciding to sell his business because he was emotionally ready to move on. We could have waited another year and he would have had a much more valuable business. But we didn't do that because he was ready. So in this situation again it's magic and loss; math and logic; oh my goodness, see this is why Mike's podcast is better…math and logic. Mark: Well I'm sure a lot of buyers out there look at sleaze and say this doesn't look like magic; it doesn't make sense. Joe: I said magic and loss; oh man, oh man. We're not editing that out. Chris, don't touch that. Alright, so Mike renegotiated the cost of goods sold on 1 ASIN. The reduction in cost was it came down $1.60. It was already on the books. He already had product in Amazon FBA and it was shipping and it's been in FBA already for 2 months. What we did; it was a $1.60, so what we did was we looked at the sales per month of that ASIN for the other 10 months going back in the P & L took that dollar amount and multiplied it times $1.60. Let's just say for simple math it was 1,000 units a month, right? I say simple math but here I am looking to the other calculator. If you got 1,000 units a month times $1.60 we're looking at 1,600 dollars a month times 10 months it's a $16,000 mathematical and absolutely legitimate add back; math and logic there. That times the multiple applied to the business; let's just say if it's 3 times that's a sizable add back, it's $54,000, no, $48,000. How's my math? Mark: We'll 48,000. On this I want to go back to where we started this conversation; why do we do these add backs at all? Again it's the idea that we want to show a buyer they're expected return on investment and we want to show a set number standardized approach so that you can interject your own assumptions. And the reason that this is completely valid to do even though you can take a look and say well the actual expenses were not this is because this is the forward-looking numbers that we know are going; the way that the business is going to be run in the future. Joe: That 10 months of expenses there will not carry forward so we needed to make an adjustment for that. Mark: Exactly the only thing we would need to verify would be in due diligence the supplier is going to give the same or similar terms to the new buyer. That would be the only thing that we really need to confirm there. So I think this makes complete sense. Joe: 100%. Mark: Did you get any pushback from buyers on that? Joe: Not an ounce and the buyer that bought the business is; I mean he went to Harvard, he's a very smart guy, he's bought 4 other businesses from Quiet Light Brokerage, and he understands all of this. And he's got investors that review everything so no pushback at all. Mark: Yeah. Alright, next one on your list you have here reduced fees times units sold. Joe: Look, everyone listening that's considering a sale of their business this last one is why you cannot have one conversation with a business broker for 30 minutes and decide that that's the one you've got to go with because if they're incredibly good at sales they're going to talk you into something in 30 minutes. Now I shouldn't say that because; well, look you've done research on Quiet Light, you've listened to the podcast, you've listened to different examples so maybe you can but you got to dig deep. This happened to me recently in like the third conversation on having in a review of the profit and loss statement. This is why we review profit and loss statements. We learned that the owner of this particular business that I'm talking about repackaged; worked on repackaging all of his product SKUs and in doing so it changed the level of pick pack and ship at Amazon. So he was at let's say Level 5 and he came down at Level 4; now these are costs. They're not called that but his fees at Amazon went down. Let's call it a dollar. So instead of $5 pick pack and ship fee, it was $4 because it was a smaller package, lighter package, things of that nature. So he did that. Again let's go to the same thing we did here with Jackness's business. He did it in the last 2 months, it's on the books for the last 2 months, so we're going to the prior 12 months and went okay how many units did you sell during those prior 12 months or 10 months times a dollar per unit and we're doing an add back for that because that adjusted expense in the past went away and it does not carry forward; same thing, different scenario. Mark: Yup, absolutely. So I think there's 2 ways when we're looking at some of these kind of I don't want to creative add backs but the ones that require a little bit more explanation. The one thing that I would just encourage people to keep in mind is that when we see some of these add backs which go back and recast numbers there are some situations where it makes sense to rather than going back and doing that add back bake in some of the value into the multiple as opposed to the trailing 12 months. If we keep in mind that the basic approach to estimate in value in a basic valuation approach would be your trailing 12 months discretionary earnings times some multiple, it doesn't matter if you increase your discretionary earnings by 10% or increase your multiple by 10%; the result on your valuation is going to be the same. And so I think there is a little bit of discretion and strategy that needs be taken into account by both the broker and the seller when it comes to determining where do we want to get this value in. The thing you need to always keep in mind is are you actually offering real value to a potential buyer? Is this really going to be valuable for the forward-looking future for that; I don't know if there's a backward-looking future, for the future of the new owner of the business and where are they going to get that value? So you might be hearing this and thinking this is pretty complex I don't know if these things would be really a legitimate add back or not. Look if you find this difficult that's because some of it is and some of it does require discussion. And as I said at the beginning we have these discussions at Quiet Light all the time. We will share something with the entire team and say what do you guys think this? Here's what I'm thinking, I should have it added back. And sometimes we disagree but we always are able to figure out where that line should be. So I'm going to just throw this invite out; if you have a question on whether or not something would be an add back ask us. Hound us and say what do you think of this; do you think this would be a legitimate add back or not? And that would be on the buy-side or on the sell-side. If you're look at an opportunity and maybe with another broker or directly with the seller and they're adding something back and want to know what our thoughts are let us know. We'd love to weigh in on it. Joe: Let's route another invite there and let's find a way to do an actual valuation; we'll do video as well as audio. We'll remove the client's names. We'll just use first name and we won't use the business name. And we'll do it sort of Mike Jackness, Ecom Crew Under The Hood Valuation and record it so everybody can hear the process we go through. Man that being in a 2 or 3 part series because it's such a long in-depth, detailed process. The only thing I want to throw is that we are developing webinars here at Quiet Light that will be up on the new 48-month long redesign that Mark's been working on. Yes that's a little wise-ass comment there but the webinars will be up, they will be available in detail for you folks to dig deeper and see us go through some of this add back schedule in the process of doing one that is titled “What's a Legitimate Add Back?” and all of this will be in webinar format where you can see actual profit and loss statements and whatnot. Mark: Sounds great. I look forward to doing those. I don't have anything else on add backs. I think we've just covered the entire topic as deeply as you possibly could actually no we could probably talk for another couple of episodes in some of these things but I don't have anything else to add for this one. Do you have anything Joe? Joe: No, we're good. It was great having 2 very special guests on the podcast; one much more special. According to Andrew Youderian, you're special. Mark: I like that guy. He's such a good guy, isn't he? Joe: Andy Youderian. Has anybody reached out to him with my little Easter egg stuff that I did on the video? But we're not showing the video yet, right? Mark: I had and actually we are showing the video and that's something for you guys to know. Subscribe to us on YouTube at Quiet Light Academy. These podcasts are now up in video form so you can look at our pretty faces while you listen to us argue about add backs. I don't think anyone has reached out to him about the little Easter egg we had in that podcast episode. Because I talked to him recently and he didn't bring it up. Joe: So for those that have no idea what we're talking about and have stuck with us at the end of this podcast here's the deal. I was driving down the road listening to the Quiet Light Podcast where Mark had Andrew on with state of the e-commerce. Mark: One of the best episodes I think we ever did. Joe: Whatever you say Mark. I think this is the best episode we've ever done. Alright, so Andrew says yeah you guys have been doing a really good job. I got to tell you Mark I think you have a bit of an edge over Joe. Because Mark and I always competing with who's got the best episodes and the most downloads. And I swear I almost; I had to pull over I was laughing so out. It was so, so funny. He's a bit of a prankster. So I figured I'd get him back. And so I had an Incredible Exit Series on, we had somebody; actually it was an Incredible Acquisition, right? Karl Selle bought Smart And Fresh and so we had Karl on a podcast about that and during the podcast I pretended that our producer Chris interrupted us and handed me a sheet that it was kind of an emergency, he was looking to get in touch with somebody named Andy Youderian. I could not pronounce Andrew's name properly. But for those that go to the YouTube channel you'll see that I have an EcommerceFuel t- shirt on and that the EcommerceFuel podcast is in the background; a mouse pad is in the background. So clearly I know Andrew Youderian. I want to call him Youderainan from now on. Clearly I know Andrew. My kind would call those Easter eggs. I think that's what they're officially called in Marvel movies. So I just threw in a few Easter eggs there. It was kind of fun. We did get one person that sent an e-mail to me and he goes I think the person that your producer is looking for is Andrew Youderian for EcommerceFuel. And I said well that was kind of a joke. I had to send a note back. But it was kind of fun. Mark: Well he was right though. It is the person we're looking for. We have an Easter egg coming up in one of the movie quotes so you guys have to dig deep on these movie quotes. And I don't know which episode it's going to be live on. Listen to the different intros. There's going to be one that you're going to have a really hard time finding but I'll tell you what I want you to find this one whenever it airs. That's really, really difficult and I will get with our producer next week's podcast and make sure that we give you a little hint as to which podcast to listen to for this movie quote because it's just an absolute gem. Joe: Awesome. Let's wrap it up with that. Links and Resources: ECom Crew Episode Quiet Light Academy YouTube

The more a seller expands his net, the more buyers he can catch. Often on the Amazon seller revenue lines we see the lack of traction on the international side of the game. How can you get your brand safely and productively into other Amazon Markets? The truth is that Amazon UK or any other country off the .com grid are potential revenue streams and expansion opportunities if approached in the right way. Today's guest walks us through that expansion process step by step so that business owners and buyers can envision the opportunities to be had. Kevin Sanderson is a multiple six figure seller with over three years of experience on Amazon. When he started out simply selling on Amazon he had one item and very quickly turned that into about 80 skus. He learned that by expanding into the international marketplace he could target products that he could plug into that market successfully. He has a passion for helping others successfully sell on Amazon's International Marketplaces via his website and podcast and is here to tell you how you can succeed beyond dot com. Episode Highlights: Which products are best for which country and where to start in the sell. Reasons Kevin recommends starting in Canada to get your feet wet. Where to go next and how to get over the translation hurdle overseas. Why Germany stands out in the arena. The recommended steps and estimated time-frame for the expansion process. What Amazon offers by way of help. Differences in taxation in the international marketplaces. How to approach the customer service aspect in those markets. Services that Kevin offers for someone looking to expand internationally. The importance of attending ECommerce events for opening doors and connecting. Transcription: Mark: Joe welcome back from your vacation, you've been gone for a few weeks and Quiet Light Brokerage absolutely nothing happened because you aren't here. Joe: Did you missed me at all? I think I had an email reminder, a notification in there that said if you really need me find me on Whatsapp and no one needed me at all which is very humbling. The reality is that we think we're really important cogs of the wheel and if there's enough cogs you're not so nobody missed you at all. Mark: Well the truth is actually people would email you and then they would get my email and then I was home that they don't want to work with you they actually want to work with me so I've just been picking off all your potential clients. Joe: I love it, no, take all those 10 million dollar listings. Thanks, I appreciate that. Mark: Absolutely I appreciate it too, very much, and so does my wife. Anyways this week I want to talk about something that we've seen a lot of with Amazon Sellers. We look at these P&Ls and oftentimes what you see are these revenue lines on the P&Ls where it's your typical Amazon sales coming through and then you see this Amazon UK or Amazon Europe or something like that and you see some revenue kind of pop and then trail off after a while. And when you talk to the client or the seller about this the backstory is always the same. I thought about expanding to Europe and UK but I didn't really gain traction there and it was just a lot more work than I really anticipated so we've decided not to really do that. The fact is though Amazon UK, Amazon Europe, Amazon Canada, and some of these other countries are really, really good expansion opportunities but you have to go about it the right way and that's not always as straight forward as putting the product up and launching that store. You talked to somebody who we guess went over exactly in that process how do you actually expand into in other markets on Amazon. Joe: Yeah it's Kevin Sanderson from Maximizing Ecommerce. He's affiliated or associated with Scott Voelker who we enjoy from the Amazing Seller and Brand Accelerator Live. And Kevin talks about just that. Okay if you're going to expand start here then go there and then go there so that you're getting your feet wet and doing it in a way where you're learning without getting so frustrated you just throw your hands up and walk away which as he said I see too often. Interestingly enough yesterday I'm doing a valuation call and exactly what you talked about revenue line for Amazon.com and Amazon Europe overseas and there were 3 or 4 months of revenue starting to climb, climb, climb, and then nothing because that particular individual just got frustrated. She didn't think she was going to get a bang for a buck there because it was so complicated and confusing for her. But the reality is she took on too much all at once. Kevin's approach is more methodical and I like it. It's simple. It's clean. It's logical. It's not going to be earth-shattering for anybody listening. But what it is going to do is going to give them reinforcement to what they probably already know and what they should do and hopefully will do as well. Mark: Yeah fantastic topic we do have a shout out to give to somebody who guessed the right intro to one of our podcast and you got that email, Joe. Joe: I did it's from Westin Woodelf, I've got a cold after this vacation, Westin Woodelf, he  sent me an email actually while I was on vacation. It is one of the very few emails that I checked. He guessed The Founder which is the story of McDonald's the movie clip. So shout out to you Westin and thanks for listening. I appreciate all the kind words and I assure you we will get more people that bought e-commerce businesses or online businesses from us and we'll get them back on the podcast 6, 12 months after that something that he said he enjoys listening to Mark and wants to hear more of. Mark: Yeah and you know I went to a meetup; a shout out to the people that I met up with for the Rhodium Minneapolis Red Calibers meet up just a couple of weeks ago. I got some good feedback on the podcast there as well you know the point here being not to say guys you have to praise us because we need it for our egos more what do you want to hear. And I got some really good feedback on that. If you guys have stuff that you want to hear or a style of podcast that really stands out to you, let us know, send us an email. We do insist that we want to create content that's useful for you and helpful. And again keep guessing those movie titles that should be fun. The Founder is a great movie as well highly recommended for anyone that loves entrepreneurship. Joe: And we actually respond to emails. Its inquiries@quietlightbrokerage.com Mark and I get those personally. We also have our own personal email addresses which are really complicated joe@quietlightbrokerage.com or mark@quietlightbrokerage.com and Mark as a K, not a C. Mark: I spell it the right way. Joe: You do spell it the right way, sorry everybody else. Alright, let's get to this Kevin Sanderson, Maximizing Ecommerce, how to get your brand safely and productively in other Amazon markets. Joe: Hey folks Joe Valley here from Quiet Light Brokerage and today we've got Kevin Sanderson from Maximizing Ecommerce on the podcast. Kevin, how are you today? Kevin: I'm doing excellent. Thanks for having me. Joe: Where in the world are you? Kevin: I am in south-ish Florida, about 35 minutes north of West Palm Beach. Joe: Alright so we're recording at the end of July so you're definitely inside the house as always, right? Kevin: Oh yes, it's nice and humid. Joe: So as I said in the pre-call here that we don't do fancy intros so why don't you tell the audience a little bit about yourself and what your background is. Kevin: Sure. So I've been an e-commerce seller for about 4 years. I remember when I got into the whole thing I just happened to be looking at my phone podcasts and this podcast called the Amazing Seller podcast came up. I was like this sounds interesting so I listened to it. I was like this sounds like something I want to go towards and I went out to Walgreens and they were closing out the summer specials of like whatever they're going to close out to make room for back to school and I bought a bunch of those blue cooler thingy's you'd use in your cooler to keep your cans cooled in the freezer. Joe: Okay. Kevin: And I remember sending some of them off to Amazon with a few other things. And I got an e-mail that my stock had been checked in and I was playing with the app like most people do once you start doing this for a while. It keeps saying this 0 sales, 0 dollars, all this and then all of a sudden I refresh it and there's a 1. I was like hey someone bought it. It was like the day it got checked in. I was prepared like mentally that it might take weeks or whatever but this just like rush of adrenaline came over me. And I went running into the living room and my wife and was like you have to see this and I almost like threw the phone at her. I was so excited. But at first, she thought it was insane just kind of like where is my husband who is this person but then she realized I was just excited about it and then she kind of got it. And so from then on, I've been hooked on the whole e-commerce game. Joe: So it's that easy just go to Walmart, Walgreens, buy some stocked out items and put it on Amazon and you're in business. Everybody succeeds that way, right? Kevin: Yes I came to learn there's more steps in the process for that. It was like one of the things I learned very early on in my resale arbitrage career which is short-lived was that I didn't like having to keep finding stuff and bending it in. So at least what it did was it clicked the switch in my head that like okay this is possible. It's not just I'm hearing someone talking about it. I actually saw like the 0 go to a 1 and it became real to me. Like okay now let's go after building my own brand. And so the fall was coming up and at the time I was a high school football official and I decided to take a year's worth of earnings and put that off to the side to go towards my 1st product. And so from let's say February of the following year which would have been 2016 I put up my own branded products and then I kept reinvesting into it. And then back in December of 2018, I left my job and it was like I'm going to do all this full time. And I now have about 80 products that I sell. 80 different SKUs as well as…I sell mostly on Amazon but still try to diversify as much as possible. One of the things that's been very successful for me is selling internationally; so I sell in Canada, the 5 European marketplaces, Japan, and I'm about to launch in Australia and Mexico. Joe: Okay and that's what we're going to dig into today folks is how to expand beyond Amazon.com into these other marketplaces. You know I have multiple valuation calls a week talking to people that are looking to exit someday and just yesterday I talked to somebody that we have…she's a friend of Scott Voelker from The Amazing Seller who you're friends with as well. And she tried to expand to Europe and found that it was just too complex and complicated. So it's funny one of the growth areas that savvy; not savvy, that's the wrong word because this person is actually very savvy. One of the growth areas that people with a kind of international experience see is international. They'll look at an Amazon business it's US only and they can see where it may plug into one of the European markets or all of them. Whereas others they try it and they fail because it's just at a level of detail that is not good for them and their business and they stick to one; focus on the US. You set up a business for that where you're helping people expand beyond the US. So talk to me about A. which country because I have a couple in mind I want to see which countries are the best or if it's not that simple that different products are better for different countries. Kevin: Well there's a little bit of different products are the best for different countries. But one simple thing people can do is if their product is selling in the US and they just look up the keyword of how someone might find their product, so if they are selling garlic presses as our friend Scott would use or fishing lures they could look up garlic presses or fishing lures on Amazon.ca or Amazon.co.uk which are the Canadian and UK versions of Amazon and just go to Jungle scout and Jungle Scout will give you an idea. Now don't get caught up in the numbers but what I would say is if you are making sales in the US and similar products to yours are making some sales internationally in those international marketplaces it's at least worth evaluating. You should at least try. Now to your point, there are some hoops you have to jump through. One of the things I recommend to people if you're going to start off with go into Canada because logistically I personally find it easier. They have what's called GST, HST which is their goods and services tax, harmonized sales tax, it's all kind of the same thing but for the most part most people are just going to register with the federal government there and it works very similar to how sales tax work in the US except it's simpler for most people. And in most cases, they're going to have to file for that sales tax once per year. Joe: So do you do that just for the exercise of learning how to go international because it's easy because it is Canada, are you going to get your bang for your buck there, right? The population is 10% of the US so you can expect 10% of your US revenue in terms of Amazon. How do you; is it really worth it? And I think I know the answer. I think I know what you're going to say but I want to hear you say it. Is it really worth it in terms of dollars or is it a combination of dollars and revenue and the exercise of going international and getting comfortable with it? Kevin: I would say all of the above. So the way I look at it is you have a net and as widen that net in the sea of Amazon you're going to catch more fish. And some of those fish are exclusive to; and by fish I mean customers, some of those are exclusive to Canada or they're exclusive to the UK. And as you catch more of those fish you're going to get more sales. So the way I like to look at it is if you said I'm just going to go into all the international marketplaces if you try to do it all at once it's going to be too much. Canada is relatively simple. I think it's a good place to get your feet. So what I did was I went to Canada and then I went to the UK that which is their sales tax is a little more complex and there's more kind of like landmines you could go hit on that you don't want to. So it's best to start off with Canada going to the UK. And then you can go into other parts of Europe and use UK as a base of operations. And the nice thing is if you go into the other marketplaces in Europe you'll most likely have to translate your listings but at least if you're starting off in the UK and Canada you're talking about 2 English speaking countries. So that also lowers some of the barriers. Joe: Okay, so you're saying a little bit of everything going into Canada so I think it's a great idea that people start there. And if all you do; if you're doing $100,000 in discretionary earnings or profit and you expand to Canada and all it does is add $10,000 it's not hard. Kevin will talk about a little bit in terms of how to do it and can help people do it but that additional $10,000 in discretionary earnings if your business is worth a 3 time multiple you just added $30,000 a month to the overall value of your business if you decide to exit someday. But I like that baby-stepping it doing one country at a time starting with Canada and then another English speaking country being the UK. As far as VAT it is complicated. We've done podcasts on it with Avask accounting; the folks over there. Kevin: That's what I use. Joe: Great. Folks use them as well. I know Melanie they refer people back and forth to us. Anytime we've got someone buying a brand that's selling in the UK we always connect people with them because they're good. And for folks, that's AvaskAccounting.co.uk A-V-A-S-K. In terms of the next country so you're going to go Canada then you're going to go UK where do you go next? Kevin: I would say most likely Germany. Germany outside of the UK is going to have some of the best sales in Europe. Now you're starting to get into a different language but there's translation services out there. Amazon has translation services but there are some asterisks that you might not actually be eligible for kind of strange. Joe: I don't think the automated translation services work all that well and here's why. I was just in France and Switzerland and used Google Translate. It kind of worked. I'm literally driving down the highway from I think at the airport to Paris and I'm in the car with an Uber driver and he's got Google Translate up on his phone. I've got it up on mine. I say something and it spits it out in French. We're having this weird conversation but it didn't quite fully translate it properly. So I couldn't imagine using a translation service, an automated translation service like that. What kind of experience do you have with that if you're going to translate something to German? Do you hire individual people that are native speakers or do you use a translation service? Kevin: So I've tried all kinds of different things. I've had Amazon help me with translations and theirs is essentially machine in most cases. Joe: I got it. Kevin: The ones I've seen it's machine translated and then a person checks it. Now the issue is who's checking the checker? So if you're English speaking and you're trying to check whether or not German is correct it's got to be a regular translator. I found a German translator that I've had good luck with and I had someone else check it. So if you find one let's say on Upwork or Fiverr or something and you have someone translate something for you, see if you can hire someone else to critique it. Or if you know someone who speaks German or Spanish or whatever language you want to translate have someone else verify it for you and then you know okay now I've got someone good. I've got; actually oddly enough in the office building, I work out of there's a translation company down the hall that actually they've worked with American Translator Association translators. They have contracts with all the court systems and they've done stuff for GE and Disney and a bunch of other companies. So I've found them to be pretty reputable too. But if you're not 100% sure always have someone else check it. Even if you're hiring let's say on Fiverr and you give like a paragraph of stuff, you can hire 3 or 4 people and have them check against each other. And whoever's getting the best load out of everyone else is probably the one to go with. Joe: Awesome. I think that's a great idea. There's been times I've looked at Amazon listings and I could tell it's been written by somebody that does not speak English as their native tongue and it's obvious and I lose confidence and I don't necessarily want to buy that product. And I imagine it's the same somebody is in Germany thinking it. As far as the countries go, I know that one product is not going to be perfect for all countries but from a brokering standpoint and what I've seen over the last several years is that Germany stands out amongst all of the European countries as the one that seems to bring people that are exiting that have the most sizable business, sizable revenue. Why do you think that is? Is there something about the German marketplace that makes it stronger and larger than the other marketplaces? Is it population? Is it because of the affluent nature of the individuals in that country or is it just pure happenstance? Kevin: I think it's a combination of several different things. So I think as; to take a step back as you go outside of the US and you have more hoops to jump through fewer people want to take those hoops. And then as you start getting into other marketplaces that aren't English now that's another hoop that you have to jump through of getting it translated. So fewer and fewer sellers I think are willing to do that from what I found and so you have less competition. So then combine with I think the population size and the people in Germany; I still do better in the UK than I do in Germany. It could just be my product but I've heard people say the opposite. So it just depends and you never know until you test it. Joe: Okay, Alright so 1st step go to Canada, give it a shot, 2nd UK, and then 3rd another country; Germany. What services are out there? How do you expand? What steps do you recommend someone take in order to go through this process of expanding? And like how much time would you give it? We've talked about 3 countries here so far, what kind of timeframe would you give that in terms of checking those off and moving and expanding into these countries? Kevin: Well if you're doing it alone what you would do is you would 1st register with whatever governmental agency you need to register with. So if it's Canada you go to the Canadian Revenue Agency and register for what's called non-resident importer status and also a GST, HST number. It's all basically the same number, it's just the programs that you're under. Joe: Can all that be done through your Amazon accounts when you want to expand to different countries? Because they're always asking you to expand to different countries, are they offering those services or connections? Kevin: So Amazon will often times help you. Here's my take on Amazon. If they're calling you, answer the phone. It's the way I look at it. See what they have to say. Now I don't want to disparage Amazon but what I've come to find is the people at Amazon they're always very well-intentioned but they're siloed. So no one fully understands the whole journey as a seller that you're going to go through like another seller. So I'm happy to help walk people through that. If people have other friends that are doing it check with your friends and get some advice as well. Just because there are a lot of pieces that even some services like let's say you know I know that there's freight forwarders that will help you get registered in Canada or another country but they may be not getting you into all the programs that you really should be in because they're looking at it from their standpoint of like okay to get stuff across the border you need this but maybe you also need something else that they didn't register you for because that's not necessarily their focus. And then Amazon, their focus is really in my experience the folks who are calling you saying hey sign up in wherever country they're just trying to get you into that country and then from there it's okay go for it. Joe: Okay. First, do the research on that country and make sure that your products are selling or something similar is selling and you've got buyers there. Okay, and how are you dealing with the taxes and registrations? Can you cover that a little bit? We had Avask on the podcast talking about that. Can you talk briefly about the differences on how taxes work on products in the US versus over in Europe? Kevin: Okay. Well, I think the simplest way to look at it is you have 2 buckets of taxes. You have sales tax and you have income tax. So income tax you're still most likely as long as you're using your US-based entity you're going to still owe Uncle Sam assuming someone's from the US, but you're still going to owe Uncle Sam for income taxes or whatever country you live in. So then in that country, there's going to be some sort of tax on the sale; so whether it's a GST, and the VAT; whatever. Joe: What does GST stand for? Kevin: Oh sorry goods and services tax which is the sales tax of Canada. So the nice thing about Canada is in most cases and a disclaimer here is I'm not a tax preparer so please make sure that you check with an appropriate tax professional about your own situation. But what I found is for most people and in talking to people that do this in the tax world is that you're most likely going to in Canada register for the goods and services tax and the harmonized sales tax. It's all just the same thing. Basically, federal tax and you file once per year. It gets added onto the sale just like here in the US. So if they live in a province where let's just say it's 8% and it's $20 then now 1.60 is added on and then you'll remit and file and then you actually in Canada have a few ways that you can save money on what you're giving to the government because if you pay GST at the border or some other way that you're paying you can get credits back. And then it works kind of the same way with credits back in Europe. Now Europe is where it starts getting a little bit more complicated. So the simplest way to look at Europe is where is the inventory getting imported into and where is it being housed. So if it comes across a border you have the requirement to file for VAT or to register and file for VAT in that country. If it's being housed in that country you're required to register and file for that country. So I think the simplest way to do it in Europe is to go into the UK and then keep your inventory in just the UK and they'll allow you to do what's called the European fulfillment network and have your products shipped to the other 4 countries from the UK. Now a lot of times what some people might steer you towards is what's called the pan-European program. It's a little bit of savings but I don't think it's really worth it because you save about a Euro per fulfillment fee and so you think oh wow that's going to add up over time. So the going rate is probably about 7,200 euros per year to be tax compliant, to have somebody do all the tax filings for you and then you end up with like Amazon will put some of your stock in Poland and the Czech Republic those aren't even countries where they have market places but they just store them there. So again once it's stored in a country now you have a VAT requirement and you might have to file; they're filing monthly for you and you have to pay. So you might have to pay the equivalent of like $10or $8 some months to the Polish government and it's just; it's almost like a little nap on your side and it's just like why am I having to do this. Joe: Right. Kevin: So it's expensive and what I came to learn is well I would say the best thing for most people is in Europe you want to sign up for what's called the flat rate scheme. Now when we think of taxes and scheme we think about handcuffs and going to jail. But in Europe scheme just means calculation method. So in most cases, someone who's listening to this is most likely going to be an online retailer and basically, the way it works is if let's say they sell a product in let's say the UK for 12 pounds. The price is actually 10 pounds and 2 pounds of VAT is included in that because the thing that's different about Europe is the price includes the VAT. So just to walk through that math there so you would owe 2 pounds for that sale to the government minus whatever you paid in at the border and whatever other VAT credits you had. Now if you're on the flat rate scheme you don't have to keep all your receipts for everything else. You just file 7½ % so that; just to make the math simple there using that 12 pound product you really just, it's 10 pounds is what you're selling it for so you would owe 7.5% of that which would be 75 pence which is like their pennies over there instead of having to figure out all that other nonsense of like credits and all that. What I found and I could be completely wrong on this is my accountants, they told me, there's not a flat rate scheme currently in the other countries. So if their VAT is 22 or 23% you owe that full 22, 23% as opposed to; because basically, the way it works is instead of like in the US tax is based on, sales tax is based on where the customer lives, in Europe it's where is it being dispatched from; so where they're shipping it from. So if everything is being shipped from the UK you pay the equivalent VAT to the UK. Joe: So that's a pretty substantial saving. You're saving if you're doing penny you're saving a dollar or a euro but the percentages that you're talking about could be pretty substantial in terms of saving if you're shipping off from the UK. Kevin: Yes. Joe: Plus it sounds like your life's going to be a little simpler too. Kevin: Yes. Joe: And I think that's why a lot of people don't expand or expand to the UK and then pull back because it is a little complicated if you do too much too fast. So I like your simple approach here in terms of the flat rate scheme and sticking to the UK. What are you finding in terms of customer service and things of this nature? How do you handle that aspect of it when you're dealing with the European market place if you're in an English speaking native? Kevin: A great question, so there are services out there that will do customer service for you. I've had translators make templates for me because there's a variety of issues that may come up if you've been doing this a while you kind of know what questions people are going to ask you. But also you can do and this is not necessarily something you have to worry too much about because at the end of the day Amazon requires that there's customer service for that customer in the native language. If they're fulfilling it they look at it pretty much as they're handling the customer service. So you will get some emails from time to time that you have to respond to within 24 hours just like you do in the US. And so I sometimes will take the message put it in Google Translate see what it is in English and then I flip it around. So if I'm going back from English to let's say Italian, I then write my response copy and paste the Italian or whatever language I'm using, send it to the customer and I've not really had anyone write back and say I can't believe you just said that to me. Joe: Alright, so it does work in many cases. I did like it. It was an in-depth long conversation about soccer and kids and family with an Uber driver in France where it doesn't work. But I'm sure that in customer service it does work fairly well. Kevin: Yeah like my product didn't arrive, okay we'll send you a new one, usually that that type of thing works pretty well and you can figure out and they can figure out what you mean. Joe: Pretty simple. So, Kevin, you've gone from living in the corporate world to being an entrepreneur. Now you've got 80 different SKUs and you're also; you've got the Maximizing Ecommerce podcast, you are helping other people expand internationally as well. Are you doing that through Maximizing Ecommerce? How does anybody listening that maybe just bought a business and wants to expand internationally is it a service that you offer to help people go beyond the US? Kevin: Yes. So what they could do is if they wanted to go beyond the US actually for your listeners I'd be willing to do a free 30-minute strategy session; no obligation. They could just go to MaximizingEcommerce.com/quiet and it will take them to a page where they can schedule something with me. Just looking for people of course that have an existing business, if they're looking to get started I'll give them a free checklist on how to get their 1st product kind of like how I did. Joe: We'll put that in the show notes as well. Okay. Kevin: Yes and then also if they wanted to hear more live you and I will be hanging out together in September in Fort Worth at Brand Accelerator Live and I will be speaking about selling internationally and then Quiet Light will be there as a sponsor. And then you, I will plug you as well. You will be on stage speaking about how to maximize your sale if you're looking to sell your business one day. Joe: Yeah for folks listening that don't know some of the names we've talked about, Scott Voelker is an entrepreneur, an influencer, a speaker, a motivator, he's got the podcast the Amazing Seller. Scott's local to me sort of in South Carolina. He's got a place up here North Carolina. And Kevin's working with him on Brand Accelerator Live which is Scott's 1st big event. He's bringing in the best people in the marketplace; Greg Mercer from Jungle Scout,  Mike Jackness from eComCrew and a whole lot of other folks. And I'm sort of in a very, very low tier of those folks. Greg and Mike and the other folks like that are very, very well known. Kevin: We're really excited that you're going to be there. Joe: Well thank you. But it's a place where I've heard in terms of the Amazing Seller podcast and what you're doing with Scott it's a place where I've talked to so many people who get such value to grow; and this is the thing, grow their Amazon business but take it beyond Amazon as well and learn about how to market off of Amazon and Shopify and e-mail marketing and Facebook or things of that nature and in the affiliate world and blog world and all that stuff. So I think Scott's done an amazing job with that. I love that you're working with him on this 1st and then we're excited to be there. Anybody that hasn't looked it up yet it's Brand Accelerator Live, is that right? Kevin: Yeah Brand Accelerator Live. They can go to BrandAcceleratorLive.com and if someone is listening to this and is saying well I've never been to a live event before whether it's Brand Accelerator Live or something else if they're listening to this in the future go to something. You never know what's going to come out of it. Joe: I'm going to interrupt and say yes that's absolutely true. You know when I 1st started doing what I do here in Quiet Light I had to go to an event and I think the 1st one I went to was in New Orleans. I can't even remember it but it was a big event and I hated it. Because I didn't like; I'm a bit of an introvert. Doing this right now, talking, podcasts, it's great. It's easy. I'm a bit of an introvert but I was at an event I forget exactly where it was and I heard the name Mike Jackness and I said to myself I'm going to find Mike. And I went to be pre-party and I saw Mike sitting there on a couch. I sat down beside and said hello and now Mike and I are really good friends. I sold his business. We've done podcasts together. We've got a lot of relationships in terms of people we know together. And I think he's made an impact on my life and my business and I've hopefully made the same on his. And when you see people; you go to an event like this and you see people standing around in a circle talking to each other and you don't know who they are, your instant thought is oh they all know each other I don't want to step in there that's really awkward. The reality is that they don't know each other. They're just getting to know each other. And I've been in a situation where literally I'm standing around like that somebody walks up and just sort of shoulders their way and starts to nod their head up and down and says hello and we had all just met each other and he came in and met us as well. So it's a hard thing to do but I think in this e-commerce world, listening to podcasts like this is invaluable but the most important thing you can do is get out there and meet people face to face and shake their hand. And then you can connect with them directly about what they're doing in their business and what you're trying to do with yours; and in this case with you taking Amazon businesses beyond the US and into the other marketplaces in a strategic process and how to do that so that you're going to have a higher success rate. So anybody listening get out there and go to a Mastermind event, whatever it might be, Brand Accelerator Live is not going to be a large one; it's down in Fort Worth in September; what are the dates on it? Kevin: September 18th through 20th and then we also have a Mastermind for high-level sellers on the 21st and we still have a couple of slots available for those mastermind folks. But yeah I definitely recommend that you go to something. So to your point like sometimes you will have that feeling like oh gosh it's going to be hard connecting with people, I remember the 1st e-commerce event I went to and I walked into the opening reception and I go to the bar and kind of have that feeling like okay there's safety at the bar, the bartender is giving me the drink. Joe: Unless you're in Mexico or the Dominican Republic but yeah, okay. Kevin: Right exactly. So I turned around and I'm like okay not to go or I do have to like talk to someone. So there was this woman standing there and it was like hi I'm Kevin and then we just started talking and you know I still keep in contact with her to this day. And I started talking to some other people. And so just a random story here is that at this live event I got to know Scott Voelker and met him in another live event because there's that power in connection where you're meeting people live as opposed to even on the phone or messaging and Facebook groups or whatever case is and he was talking about how you wanted to do more to help people in the intermediate to advanced stage. And I like to think of the world as kind of like a puzzle with pieces that all have to come together that's why I do this international thing and then things to work in hotels and conventions. So I told them I think you should do a live event and I can help you with it because I had that experience. And I was thinking like he's going to say oh no [inaudible[00:37:19.2] whatever thank you graciously because he's a nice guy. But he actually said yes tell me more how would we do this. And so this has become an opportunity that's opened up doors for me because I talked to Scott. And I know all kinds of people, maybe it's not Scott Voelker that they're connected with someone who opened up some door connected them to a supplier, they found out some like I never knew about that service or that whatever and it opened up their mind to something else because they were having a conversation over drinks, breaking bread, or just talking or someone in between sessions at a live event because e-commerce sellers for the most part especially the ones that are doing it full time if they're at their house or whatever and they're just in front of a keyboard all day they want to connect with other people. Joe: Yeah. Kevin: Or if they're doing it as a; they have a full time job they are like I don't know anyone else that does this and so all of a sudden he's like surrounded by people that all do the same thing and most e-commerce sellers are not surrounded all day by other e-commerce sellers so it's like a treat being in the same room. Joe: And you'll be amazed when you connect with folks like that how you figure out after a time that there's a half a dozen people in my surrounding area and then you can have a mini sort of mastermind group where you just get together for drinks once a month or something like that. So I think really important number one thank you for your time and helping people figure out how to expand beyond Amazon.com because it is going to bring more value for their bank account and an eventual sale as well. It's going to bring more value. But for those folks that haven't done it get to a live event, meet people face to face, it will make a difference in your business and in your life in my opinion and experience. It's hard to do. I tell you it is hard to do. It's what I do now that I've got this drink in my hand? You turn around and you say hello to someone and just take your hand out. Kevin: Exactly. Joe: And you end up being amazed with value you didn't get in that situation. Again MaximizingEcommerce.com, BrandAcceleratorLive.com, Kevin you're a good man. I appreciate your time and I look forward to seeing you in September. Kevin: I'm excited for it. Thanks for having me. Links and Resources: Kevin's Website Kevin's Podcast Listener Promo from Kevin Brand Accelerator Live 2019

When it comes to buying and selling a business, one of the first questions we typically get is how long it takes to complete the deal. These businesses are complex and looking beyond the multiple to see the potential value and return opportunities for return is key. Today's guest experienced a longer deal closing than expected but he is being rewarded for his patience. Some mistakes take longer to clean up than others but this is the story of how much the seller wanted to sell to this particular buyer despite the snags in the process. A born entrepreneur right out of high school, Karl spent over 10 years building a handyman business on his own. Right around the time he heard about Amazon and a local kid making a million dollars on the platform, Karl started to dabble and found his way in. After a few false starts, Karl became experienced in the Amazon marketplace. Today he walks us through his business buying process and his plans for doubling discretionary earnings in a very short time. Episode Highlights: The background on the business Karl purchased and how he knew it was the right fit for him. What happened with the SBA loan process and how that affected the deal. How Karl maintained the rapport with the buyer throughout the process. Why a price increase occurred during the process. The importance of keeping on top of the lender throughout. Karl's plan for doubling his margins and how he's implementing it. The importance of an in-face meeting with your Chinese manufacturer and how often to have one. Karl's advice to anyone planning a purchase. Transcription: Mark: Alright guys welcome to another episode of the Quiet Light Podcast. Real quick before I talk to Joe; if anybody out there hasn't left a rating on the Quiet Light Podcast, do me a favor go to iTunes or Stitcher or wherever you listen to us, leave a rating, we certainly appreciate it. Makes us feel good. Makes us feel like we're doing a decent job at this whole podcasting thing. So thanks in advance to everybody that has done that. Okay, so Joe, when we're talking to a potential seller or even talking to a potential buyer one of the topics that come up often, is how long does it take to complete the deal, right? And we have people wondering am I going to get this done in three months and what have you. The fact is these businesses are complex. On the upfront summaries what we see usually is pretty plain and simple. You see revenue, you see earnings, you see a multiple, and you kind of think well this should be nice and capsid and quick. And sometimes it is. But other times you have to look a little bit deeper. And you and I have talked about this before, right? For buyers to make sure you're looking beyond the multiple and the multiple is one point of data. And for sellers and buyers alike to also have patience with the process and understand that you're selling a complex asset. I know you had Carl on the podcast who is a recent buyer of one of our properties. And it was one of those situations where the deal took longer than expected and the numbers weren't as necessarily straightforward as maybe you would think when you just look at this. But the net result for him as a buyer and for a client were phenomenal by being patient and looking a little bit deeper. Joe: Yes, no question. This particular deal took I want to say from letter of intent to closing seven and a half months which is probably the longest I've ever had. There's really specific reasons for it. And Carl is partly to blame for it because he made a mistake on his application to the SBA lender. So we had to do the process essentially twice. The seller Kevin hung in there with Carl because Carl was a nice guy. It made a difference. And at one point when the deal fell apart, we had to go back. Well, my advice was to go back out to market for an awful lot more money because the business has grown a lot; probably worth $400,000 more. Carl and Kevin got along so well that Kevin said no I don't want to do that to Carl. Let's just bump the price thousand $160,000; crazy. Most buyers would walk away. They'd be like no. Yesterday it was this price today you want $160,000 more. Carl didn't do that and he's being rewarded greatly for it right away instant equity, in my opinion, a quarter of a million dollars in the business. And then some things that he's doing on his end immediately once that first container load comes in doubling the discretionary earnings because of a focus on reducing COGS. It's just fantastic what he's doing. And it's a great lesson for buyers and sellers to be patient, to be focused on helping each other, and not looking just at that multiple. Mark: You know I love this sort of story because I get it right from a buying standpoint you're looking at a lot of deal flow you need to evaluate businesses quickly. So the temptation is often to look at just the high-level metrics and to eliminate something based on that. But so many of these businesses and if I could just say you know maybe even a plug for Quiet Light you know when we bring a business to the market we usually believe in that company pretty strongly as being a good value play for buyers. And so taking the time to kind of dissect it and to understand more than the top-level metrics and what's going on underneath and look for those opportunities for that immediate win and again looking beyond that multiple. So this is a really good story of somebody doing just that and seeing a really quick reward on that. I want to listen to this. I want to hear all the dynamics. This is one of those more complex deals and I think a really good example of what happens when the deal isn't straightforward but still works out in the end. Joe: Yeah. Hey, one other thing. I had a really strange interruption everybody in the audience I want you to get 10, 15 minutes in. Chris, our producer asked me about a particular person. I'm trying to find out who this is. If you could just get that far listen in and shoot me a note. I want to try to track that person down. Thanks, Ben. I appreciate it. Let's go to the podcast. Joe: Hey folks Joe Valley here from Quiet Light Brokerage. Today I've got Carl Sally on the podcast. Carl recently bought a business from me and it was a long, long process. I think we; I'm going to throw a quick data to Carl, we originally went under LOI in October of 2018 and didn't close until June of ‘19 and we want to share the story of why with the buyers and sellers and talk about what happened during that period, how the business grew out, how we fell out of LOI, got back under LOI and eventually closed to the point where both you and the seller are thrilled and some of the things that you're going to do with the business going forward. Before we go over all of that why don't you give a little bit of background on yourself so the folks listening know who you are Carl? Carl: Sure yeah so right out of high school I basically started out a little handyman company; very artificial, just a smelting yard and painting walls for a long time, offered a few contractors to work for free until I got enough knowledge to do plumbing and electrical and basically do the house from the ground up. I did that for 10 years. So in my late 20's that's when I learned about Amazon and I always had podcasts and things trickling in my ears, self-help books and what have you while I was tiling bathrooms or roofing on a house. And I heard the 4-hour workweek and kind of the same time I heard about The 4 Hour Work Week I heard about this kid, he was making a million dollars a year on Amazon. And so I said man if she can do it there's gotta be a way I can figure this thing out. And I did some free work for him at his warehouse. And he taught me a lot and just basically pointed me in the direction of YouTube. I learned everything I could. I had a few failures in my first project; my first product on Amazon. I think me and my partner lost maybe 10 grand on our first product and that was all credit card money. And then the very next product that we launched we did it the right way and we're able to actually start a business on that foundation and eventually grew that to five, six million dollars in gross sales. Joe: That's amazing. Now let's just come back to this kid that was making a million bucks on Amazon. You didn't hear it online. It was somebody local in the area that you live in? Carl: Yeah, it was just some random kid from the community. Joe: And you tracked him down and said look man I'm here for free I just want to learn? Carl: I was great at electrical work and I knew he needed some electrical workers for his house so I just thought he could do a little trade with me. Joe: Fantastic. Carl: He was thrilled. It was nothing to him. Joe: That's beautiful. That's the way to do it. I remember hearing a story a long time ago doing the same; self-help books and everything like that where somebody was trying to develop a project, a real estate development but he didn't have enough money. So he brought in people with all of the expertise and gave him a piece of the pie and all that sort of stuff. Where there's a will there's a way. I mean that's exactly what you've shown here. And now you've bought a business that's quite sizable and you're running a business that's even much larger. So cool, good for you. That's a great story. Let's give a little background. Again just a review. We just closed the transaction. Today we're recording on June 26. I think we closed on the 12th of June but we went under LOI a long time ago. You and I've been talking for I guess it would be eight or nine months now. This is the first time we're on video folks as well. You might want to jump over to the YouTube channel and see what's going on there. The first time we've seen each other. We'd like to do a lot more video in the initial buyer-seller conference calls now. But this is our first shot together. So that's great. Carl: Yeah. Joe: But it's been a long time. We initially; a little bit of background on this particular listing folks; it's a listing that I had listed for sale I think it was in late ‘17. And the growth rate on it had slowed. The owner of the business had some competition and he reduced prices. And his sales went up, his total volume of orders went up I guess I should say. His revenue did as well but the margin shrunk because he cut costs. So growth had slowed to 1 or 2% and it concerned buyers. So for owners out there, sellers think about that aspect of it. It concerned buyers. Growth has slowed. He slashed prices. He had some great growth opportunities in the package but just hadn't implemented them out of fear. He didn't want to make a whole lot of changes before listing the business for sale which generally is right. But in this case, the combination of that slowed growth because of cutting prices to fend off competition turned buyers away. And we didn't sell the business. We had it listed for three or four months. And Kevin decided look I'm going to go ahead and implement these growth opportunities and come back at this in the future. And he did. He came back. He implemented those growth opportunities. He fixed what was broken and came back and the growth was phenomenal. Nine months later, 10 months later we saw a 25% year over year improvement in total revenues and discretionary earnings. We listed the business for sale. And probably within a couple of weeks, I think Carl you got the winning bid. We put that under offer at full price. You knew what you could do with the business which is fascinating because this one is it's in the home sector, right? You can do installation yourself and things of that nature. I didn't know there was a connection before with your background, how you grew up in that first 10-year high school. That's awesome. So it makes more sense now. But why don't we talk about it? This is we went under LOI and it was going to be an SBA loan and it fell apart. We were almost there and then we lost it because we didn't get a commitment letter. Can you talk a little bit about your process in terms of first maybe why you liked this one and then what the SBA loan process was like for you and then we'll get into how it fell apart? Carl: Yeah sure. So the business itself I really liked because well one the numbers were right, it had a very; like you said a strong year over year growth which I found attractive. All the products; it had a small amount of products for the amount of revenue so that that ratio of low amount of SKUs to high revenue was very attractive to me. So it's less management and I could handle it myself. Also, the review ratings were really high. It had a great historical keyword ranking for most of the SKUs and all of those things kind of checked all the boxes for me. And then next I wanted to talk seller because a lot of it has to do with the seller as well. I knew this would be a long process with an SBA loan and I wanted to work with somebody who was honest. So as soon as I got on the phone with them I realized this guy's a straight shooter. And I've dealt over the last 15 years with a lot of shady characters and I just don't like doing business with those kind of people anymore. So it checked every box at that point and I said okay I should definitely; I don't want to screw around. I want to give him a good offer. I felt that it was a good price for the amount of growth that it had left to do. So I made that full offer. And then we started to kind of get into my first SBA loan experience. Joe: I definitely want to talk about that. Let me talk about price. We're not going to give away the price here folks but we went with an aggressive multiple on the low side. I'd say we were at about 2.8 times even with that growth. But it's because we have listed it prior and it didn't sell. So we were able to list it for more than we did the prior time but at a multiple, that was relatively conservative at 2.8 times. And it's important to note that because of what we're going to get to at the end. So okay, back to the SBA process. Carl: Sure. So we started the process and of course, I think I approached two different lenders and they had said each one of them had said oh yeah we'll get this done for you in 30 to 60 days. And I'm like oh man that is faster than I thought. That's great. Let's do it. Joe: Yeah. Carl: So we got it going. And I think about three or four months into the process that's when we realized that I had actually screwed something up in the paperwork. There was a personal financial statement for those who haven't done SBA loans yet, you have to declare everything that you have as an asset on this paper. And so in good faith, I didn't want to commit a federal fraud. So I declared everything that I thought was an asset including two properties that I have been receiving rental on for the last three years not thinking anything out. And then they went to go do a title search on them and realized that my name's not on the deed. It's not on the loan. And to me, those have always been performing assets. But in reality, since I didn't technically own them and I just had kind of handshake agreements; paper agreements on the side with the other partners in those properties, they didn't check out. And it's almost like I was in danger of performing fraud even though I came from a place of honesty. I put assets there that I technically don't really own. So anyway the bank at that point couldn't lend to me. I was untouchable. And we had just wasted four months of time. And of course, the seller was furious. I was furious. And the lender was furious. Everybody is just mad because I screwed up. I still wanted the business. The business was growing hand over fist every month. And I realized there was no way at this point even if the seller decides to keep me on that I'm going to be able to pay the same price for it. So I reapproached Joe and the seller just to see if we can still make a deal happen. There was literally just this one little thing in the paperwork that I screwed up so I knew I had this other stack of 100 documents that I could just drop in the next lender and hopefully accelerate that process. And I think probably Joe knows better. You know better. But I think that the seller saw that I had been moving extremely quickly the entire time even though when the lender had been dragging their heels. It was probably par for the course. I see now. And so he knew that I would perform very quickly for the next lender and that there was no way that he was going to get another SBA buyer that would move faster than me. And we had also established a pretty good rapport over the over those four months. He's kind of like I am in that he likes to move fast. So I think we just kind of hit it off and he still was able to sell it to me even though we did raise the price which I thought was an extremely fair raise. I thought he really took care of me on that which I'm grateful for. We were able to make the deal. Joe: Yeah let me pipe in there because I have to; people are like what you raised the pricing? You kept going and you bought the business? First I want to touch on a couple of things there. When an SBA lender says yeah we can do this in 30, 45 days; definitely get that done. And you think yeah that's great, that's fast. You have to talk about from what starting point. Lenders have a different definition of closing, of starting; they're really talking about from the commitment letter; 30 to 40 days. And they're right. Sure. But we always want to talk that one language and that's from a letter of intent, right? We signed the Letter of Intent I think with the initial one was October 14. It's going to take anywhere from 60 to 90 days to close that deal. And by closing, we mean what? We clearly define that as money changing hands, asset changing hands, you taking control of the business, Kevin the seller getting funds; all of that is closing. So when anyone is ever talking to an SBA lender talk from the point of the Letter of Intent. Understand that there's going to be a time when you got to put that whole package together, submit it to them, it's going to go to underwriting, then you're going to get a commitment letter. That in itself can take 45 days. And then you're another 30 to 45 days to closing. So that's where we get that 90 days from the SBA side. It can happen quickly. We've got; I think Chuck did one in 45, 42 days something like that. But if it's a sizable deal and more towards the end of the year guess what they want to do it faster because they're trying to hit certain numbers. Yes, they could do it faster all the time right Carl? Carl: Of course. Joe: The other thing I just want to touch on. I'm on a podcast right now with a guy named Carl and I tried to talk my seller out of selling the business to Carl. It is pretty laughable, right? Carl: I don't blame you. Joe: Because when the deal fell through the first time I'm like look, Kevin, your business has exploded. It's worth a lot more now. We need to really jack the price. If we go back out based upon what's happening year to date and this is now, this was March 2019 at this point something. I gave a high number; a much bigger number, that the business is worth probably $350,000 more than we were under LOI with you. And you know what? He's like you know what Joe I really like Carl. We get along really well. I like him. All the paperwork is done. If we can just get it submitted the right way with another lender we could still fast track it. And you know what let's see if we can find a fair price that's going to work for Carl and me. So we did. We went back to you and we did jack the price. You ended up paying, and I'm not telling the list price, but you ended up paying about $160,000 more for the business. Carl: Right. Joe: Oddly enough the multiple still went down. Carl: Yeah, that's how good it was doing. Joe: Yeah. That's how good it was doing. You went from a 2.8 multiple to a 2.55 multiple. Yet you were paying $160,000 more. Now I'm talking about multiples here a little bit. Folks, one of the lessons I want you to get from this, Carl is looking at this business with an eye of what he can do with it, what he can accomplish, and how he can grow it. We're going to talk about that in a few minutes. Not the multiple. The multiple wasn't his main focus. It was wow it's doing this in discretionary earnings based upon things within the business I can correct, fix, shift and even with the same revenue, I'm going to jack up the discretionary earnings and have some instant equity. Speaking of instant equity we talked about it, I think that you have probably a quarter of a million dollars in instant equity in the business because I think it's worth at least that much more right now than what you paid for it based upon the growth. Okay, so there's my little two cents I wanted to go ahead…hold on a sec, my producer is poking his head in. What's up, Chris? This is odd. Okay, he gave me a piece of paper. He's asking me Carl have you ever heard of a guy named Andy Youderian? Carl: I did not. Joe: Okay Chris, no idea. Okay. Hey anybody in the audience listening, if you guys have any idea who Andy Youderian; sounds like somebody from Star Wars, have any idea who the guy is, reach out to me find him, let him know that our producer is looking for him. Alright, I'm sorry for that tangent guys. Back on track. Okay so we went out to another lender and it worked. Just touch on that in terms of how long that process was because you had to resubmit an entire package again. Carl: Right. I mean they want; as soon as they said they wanted to work with me I dropped a document stack on them about 50 pages long; no 50 documents, some of those documents were 20 pages long. Joe: Wow. Carl: I mean it was just a huge stack of paper and in my mind, I'm thinking now we can get this bank down in three weeks. But of course they; when you get legal involved I realize that that's the real linchpin is the lawyers. It just takes so so long to review and get stuff back to you. They would expect to document for me in a week. I hand it to them in 24 hours. They needed it by close of business. They'd have it in five minutes. So I never ever ever want to be the person who's holding the ball. I think with SBA loans you got to just keep the ball in the lender's court over and over and over again. And sometimes it would be even though I'd get it to them so quickly I would be waiting for seven days for a response. Joe: Yeah. Carl: And this just; that time compounds. Joe: You got to keep pushing. Carl: And I would push and I was always squeaky; always squeaky with the lender. Joe: Squeaky but nice folks. You can't put them off. Carl: Squeaky but nice. Yeah, you don't want to put them off because I still do want to do repeat business with these people. So it's a fine line you walk. But I think in the end we really did close that super-fast. It wasn't like maybe even within that two months that they normally promise. Joe: I think it was. It helped; we fast-tracked the package to underwriting which sometimes again takes 30 to 45 days. But because you had it we were able to get there fairly quickly. The other lender, by the way, helped out with that. He gave a lot of the package right over and helped out as well. Alright, so we did close it. Let's jump to the fun stuff so people can learn about what you're doing with this business. We closed June 12th; yeah 11th or 12th, then you and I had a conversation. And you basically told me that you're going to double the discretionary earnings. Can you talk about that a little bit and how you're doing it and what other folks should look at when they're looking at businesses instead of just looking at the top-line number in terms of the meat and bones of the business itself, what you looked at and how you're approaching it so that you know you can increase the bottom line number and the total margins? Carl: Sure. Well, oddly enough I didn't even realize this until maybe three days before closing. But I was really excited to close finally and I put the deal in front of my partner for my existing business who does most of the logistics for us. And he said hey this product is really similar to some of the stuff we sell, why don't we run it past our existing supplier and just get a price out of them before shopping it around to other people in China. And so we did and I think the main item that the seller of the business I was purchasing was paying for; I think he was paying 16.50 for an item that this new manufacturer was willing to make for us equal quality for $8.05. Joe: Wow. Carl: And so I said holy crap this can't be real. So we just got the samples in yesterday and it's pretty similar. I mean probably with another dollar tweak to $9.05 it'll probably be damn near the same product. And at that point—. Joe: How many units is that selling? Carl: I think that's about like 20 a day, 600 a month; 6 to 900 a month. But what that did to the EBIDTA bottom line is I think it increases it by between 80 and 90%. That's incredible. Carl: Yeah. Joe: We get a quarter million equity going in by— Carl: It was a huge windfall. I mean completely unexpected honestly. Joe: When it comes to relationships with your Chinese manufacturers, I understand your business partner from your other business spends a lot of time on that aspect of it. Do you find that it's important to get over there and meet with them face to face and spend a little time with them? Carl: Oh absolutely; 100% yeah. To be able to press the flesh with the Chinese manufacturer is night and day difference. I mean that big of a difference; completely night and day. You're just a number overseas even if you have big order amounts. They like the green but they also like the in face meeting a lot. It's part of their culture. They call it Guanxi over there where it's business relationships; a special word for a business relationship that you develop. And the more Guanxi you can develop with your manufacturer, the more seriously they'll take you even if you have smaller order sizes, even if you're ordering less frequently, they give you the benefit of the doubt many times if you screw something up they'll pick up the slack for you. And some manufacturers will negotiate on their terms as well which is something that for most people who buy from China they know that they're very inflexible on that. But if you meet them enough and bring gifts and you offer respect and just have a good time; just go out, have some cigars and some drinks with them, the more often you do that the more a friend you are they really blur the line between friend and business over there. And the more that you can step into that gray area the more freely the favors flow and the more freely they'll give you really good terms which is even better than in my opinion getting a better price. Terms is everything because your cash flow is helped out so so hugely. So I think it's hugely underrated I think everybody should see their manufacturer. Joe: For those that haven't traveled to China before, how complicated is it? Is it safe? Should you plan on spending three days there or five days, a couple of weeks and see multiple manufacturers? What would you recommend to people that haven't done it before? Carl: Personally, I think at least a week is good. And I think starting their relationship with your manufacturer. Don't just go in blind. Have at least a few months of history with your manufacturer where they see that you do pay and you're a real buyer, you're not just a maybe then they'll already respect you enough to want to extend…roll out the red carpet for you. And just saying that you're going to be there for seven days. They will take care of you. They're extremely honored to have an American guest come to their homeland and care enough to see the things that they like and care enough to see their manufacturing facility that they've spent so much time developing. So yeah they'll take you on tours. They'll pay for your hotels. I mean I've never had it where at least it wasn't at least offered to pay for most of my expenses. They bought my family gifts. I mean I didn't; these were things I was uncomfortable receiving. But I felt like I needed to receive them in order to develop that relationship and not become one-sided. Joe: I've heard that time and time again. I think one of the key things for buyers to take away from that is that if they've never been it's safe to go and people are honored to have you there. Carl: Oh yeah. I felt very safe. Joe: Business relations; Guanxi you call it, is that right? Carl: Yeah, that's what they call it. Right. Joe: So buyers that are looking at businesses one of the ways that if the seller of the business has never gotten on a plane, spend some time with the manufacturers in China. There's probably a good growth opportunity in terms of bottom-line maybe terms and do that. How often do you feel it's necessary to go over? Carl: Maybe once a year if that, if not once every couple of years even. The first meeting is the best. If you can spend a good week there. It makes a huge difference. Joe: You say [inaudible 00:28:42.4] every day or are they taking you beyond the manufacturing facility and recommending other things that you can see in China as a tour? Carl: So we had two manufacturers. Actually the first time we went to we sort of split our time three days with this one three days with that one. And we saw them every day while we were there. We didn't know anything about anything. And we totally explained to them look if you have a business to take care of we can take care of ourselves we'll walk around town and just entertain ourselves with the new sights. But they were pretty adamant about wanting to be with us every day. So that's just how it shook out. Joe: Terrific, that's fantastic. Okay, so a little bit of a tangent there folks but a great recommendation in terms of being a buyer and how to improve the bottom line numbers. Carl: Sure. Joe: Alright, so you're going to improve the discretionary earnings on this business that you already have a quarter-million dollars in terms of equity when you bought it by another 80 to 90%. How long is it going to take that to happen in terms of buying the product and getting it in? Carl: Probably two months. So in two months, we'll start to see those savings in two months. We already have about three or four months of inventory on hand so it's plenty of pad to get the new inventory up and running. But that's probably what's going to happen. And then it'll take another year to log that. A year afterward to log that in as actual recorded earnings. Joe: Right. You're thinking in terms of a resale of the business, total discretionary earnings on the trailing twelve. Carl: Days to log in the equity; right. Joe: The equity itself. Yeah, we have in the past when the cost of goods sold has been dramatically reduced then ordered hit FBA and sales occurred. We have been able to do an add back. And for folks that haven't already heard the podcast on the sale, I did with Mike Jackness on Colorit, Google Quiet Light Podcast Mike Jackness ColorIt or even eComcrew. Mike did a series and honestly, he's a fantastic podcaster if you haven't heard it. I think it's episode 247, 257. Just Google Quiet Light ColorIt eComcrew podcast and learn. Because you actually learn from somebody that's sold a business. And some of the trials and tribulations we went through when you've got four brands in one seller account under one LLC and you're only actually selling one of them. So sellers out there doing that please listen and learn because it's a major challenge. But we got through it. What other things Carl would you recommend to people that are buying a business when they're looking at things like you have and approaching it? You've done something I think really really impressive here; hanging in here for seven and a half months to get the deal closed. Building and maintaining a good relationship with the guy selling the business so he trusted you. We talk about the four pillars here at Quiet Light, well that's the fifth one right there. It's being a good guy, being likable, building good relationships with either your buyer or your seller. What other things do you think are critical when you're buying a business? As people are looking all the time they're looking at lots of things before they find the right fit. What would you recommend they do? Carl: The first thing that comes to mind is anything sold at 5 million we're really looking at SBA funds. I think what I said earlier about just being forefront on pushing the ball into the lender's court; that is so important. If you're lagging on documents then it can damage the entire transaction and the relationship with the buyer. They see that you're lagging. So I mean that is underrated. I've always been a punctual person but I never realized how much that really plays in the business on different levels. I think one of the things that helped me was having built an Amazon business before so I really was comfortable with all of the key metrics and some of the red flags on the account didn't bother me at all because I knew that those specific things were common given the circumstances. So I think it really helps to either have that background or start small. I would never have jumped into this with both feet at this dollar amount with no prior experience. I think I would have rather pick something maybe 10 times less or maybe five times smaller and just gone in with an attitude of this is my intuition and I'm going to learn here. The mistakes I'm going to make, at least I'll probably break even. It's going to be cheaper than college and more lucrative. I think going into a smaller deal is still a good idea even if you can't put up big numbers to show off to your friends. It's not what it's about, right? Get that experience under your belt and then you can make really good decisions down the road. So buying small is good, starting out from scratch I think is a great experience as well. It takes time but you're better off putting in time than losing tons of money I think. Joe: What about finding a mentor? You clearly did that. That's one of the things you mentioned. The kid in the neighborhood that was doing a million on Amazon. Carl: Yeah. To be fair he really just pointed me in the direction of YouTube. That was his biggest recommendation. And I mean you can learn a ton just by listening to people. A lot of my mentors don't know me. I get them in books. I get them in podcasts like this one. I get them in blogs. So there's a lot of free information out there I never took a course and I feel like I've done pretty well. Joe: Well, obviously you've done pretty well. I got to tell you just the YouTube thing I've got a 17-year-old and anything he needs to learn it's on YouTube. Carl: Yeah. Joe: I'm 63 so anybody my age, learn from Carl and those younger; anything you want it's on— Carl: It's crazy. It's information at your fingertips. Joe: At your fingertips and it's free; that's right. Alright, then this is great. We're just about out of time. I appreciate the last nine or 10 months. And I'm looking forward to working with you in the future on some other transaction as well. Carl: Oh definitely. That is not the end. Joe: Alright, thanks for all your time. I appreciate it, your patience and congrats on such a great business that you've got here. Carl: Thank you, Joe. I appreciate it. Links and Resources: Mike Jackness Episode

Making big purchases can be exciting and fun! It can also lead to stress and less wealth. Here's how to make the wise choice. - When is the best time to get a teenager a credit card (Joe) - What are some last minute interview tips (Antoinne, Atlanta, GA) - How can I insure a baseball card collection (Presley) - How can I stop splurging (Amaya, Kentucky) - My husband won't cut cable because of sports (Raegan, Jacksonville, FL) - Can I refinance a car I just bought (Athena, Maine) - How to save money on A/C bills - Have you done your mid-year tax review? - Never take advice from Jim Cramer on picking stocks - The benefit of owning a home to build wealth is forced savings Mentioned on the show: Get The Complete Guide To Saving Money FREE printed copy of Scott's new book - How to Save $1,000 This Week: http://bit.ly/2w30ZWs

Ignorance is not bliss when it comes to sales tax. Believe it or not, today's topic is an exciting one for all buyers and sellers. Our guest is Diane Yetter from the Sales Tax Institute and Yetter Tax. She joins us to talk to us all about sales tax, sales nexus, click through Nexus, and more. Diane is a niche entrepreneur in her own right, uniquely helping other entrepreneurs navigate the tricky waters of sales tax. Diane businesses focus exclusively on sales tax, helping companies learn what sales tax means for them and what they need to do to be in compliance with state tax laws. SalesTax Institute and Yetter Tax are educational consultancies, providing people with all the tools they need to learn the why, when, where and how of remitting sales tax for each state where they do business. Episode Highlights: What click-through nexus is. Where and how affiliate payments are made. The Wayfair decision and the resulting state actions. Physical, Economic, and Marketplace nexus. Where to find the economic guide by state. Educational tools Diane offers on her website. Are there advantages to learning how these nexus' work versus hiring someone to do it? The penalties for collecting sales tax and not remitting it. Concerns and risks in the acquisitions realm. The process each state goes through to identify sellers out there. We go over the risks to buyers if the seller has not satisfied their state economic nexus. The odds of something coming back to haunt the new owner of a business if there are unpaid nexuses. The resources the Institute provides to help listeners wade through all this. Transcription: Mark: Alright guys welcome to another episode of the Quiet Light Podcast. Real quick before I talk to Joe; if anybody out there hasn't left a rating on the Quiet Light Podcast, do me a favor go to iTunes or Stitcher or wherever you listen to us, leave a rating, we certainly appreciate it. Makes us feel good. Makes us feel like we're doing a decent job at this whole podcasting thing. So thanks in advance to everybody that has done that. Okay, so Joe, when we're talking to a potential seller or even talking to a potential buyer one of the topics that comes up often, is how long does it take to complete the deal, right? And we have people wondering am I going to get this done in three months and what have you. The fact is these businesses are complex. On the upfront summaries what we see usually is pretty plain and simple. You see revenue, you see earnings, you see a multiple, and you kind of think well this should be nice and capsid and quick. And sometimes it is. But other times you have to look a little bit deeper. And you and I have talked about this before, right? For buyers to make sure you're looking beyond the multiple and the multiple is one point of data. And for sellers and buyers alike to also have patience with the process and understand that you're selling a complex asset. I know you had Carl on the podcast who is a recent buyer of one of our properties. And it was one of those situations where the deal took longer than expected and the numbers weren't as necessarily straightforward as maybe you would think when you just look at this. But the net result for him as a buyer and for a client were phenomenal by being patient and looking a little bit deeper. Joe: Yes, no question. This particular deal took I want to say from letter of intent to closing seven and a half months which is probably the longest I've ever had. There's really specific reasons for it. And Carl is partly to blame for it because he made a mistake on his application to the SBA lender. So we had to do the process essentially twice. The seller Kevin hung in there with Carl because Carl was a nice guy. It made a difference. And at one point when the deal fell apart, we had to go back. Well, my advice was to go back out to market for an awful lot more money because the business has grown a lot; probably worth $400,000 more. Carl and Kevin got along so well that Kevin said no I don't want to do that to Carl. Let's just bump the price thousand $160,000; crazy. Most buyers would walk away. They'd be like no. Yesterday it was this price today you want $160,000 more. Carl didn't do that and he's being rewarded greatly for it right away instant equity, in my opinion, a quarter of a million dollars in the business. And then some things that he's doing on his end immediately once that first container load comes in doubling the discretionary earnings because of a focus on reducing COGS. It's just fantastic what he's doing. And it's a great lesson for buyers and sellers to be patient, to be focused on helping each other, and not looking just at that multiple. Mark: You know I love this sort of story because I get it right from a buying standpoint you're looking at a lot of deal flow you need to evaluate businesses quickly. So the temptation is often to look at just the high-level metrics and to eliminate something based on that. But so many of these businesses and if I could just say you know maybe even a plug for Quiet Light you know when we bring a business to the market we usually believe in that company pretty strongly as being a good value play for buyers. And so taking the time to kind of dissect it and to understand more than the top-level metrics and what's going on underneath and look for those opportunities for that immediate win and again looking beyond that multiple. So this is a really good story of somebody doing just that and seeing a really quick reward on that. I want to listen to this. I want to hear all the dynamics. This is one of those more complex deals and I think a really good example of what happens when the deal isn't straightforward but still works out in the end. Joe: Yeah. Hey, one other thing. I had a really strange interruption everybody in the audience I want you to get 10, 15 minutes in. Chris, our producer asked me about a particular person. I'm trying to find out who this is. If you could just get that far listen in and shoot me a note. I want to try to track that person down. Thanks, Ben. I appreciate it. Let's go to the podcast. Joe: Hey folks it's Joe from Quiet Light Brokerage and believe it or not this is an exciting topic. It is about sales tax, sales tax nexus, click-through nexus; a term I had not heard until today. Our guest is Diane Yetter or she's from the Sales Tax Institute. So let me try that again. She's from the Sales Tax Institute, see being a podcaster is not as easy as it sounds. She's also from Yetter Tax; both all hers. Diane, welcome to the Quiet Light Podcast. Diane: Thanks, Joe. I'm glad to be here with you. Joe: Alright, so that I don't stutter and stumble my way through trying to tell people what you do, why don't you help us out with that? Diane: Sure. What we do is we are a business that focuses exclusively on sales tax. And we help companies learn what sales tax means to them. So we are primarily an education business. And then we also help them understand what they need to do to be in compliance with sales tax. So we do that through helping them understand where they have nexus, what's taxable that they buy and sell, help them get appropriate systems set up so that they can handle that correctly, and then in the hopefully not event that they get audited we can help them with that. So we do that through our consulting side. And then we also provide a variety of educational courses through our Sales Tax Institute. Joe: And it's good stuff. I just looked at some videos this morning and I've learned a bit already just in your free snippets online. And let's just throw out one of those things because I'm sure the vast majority of listeners have not heard of and I'm going to look at my notes click-through nexus. Let's just give them something that they don't know about right away before we reinforce what they should know about which is overall nexus and collecting sales taxes and the risks of not and the rewards of collecting when they go to sell their business someday. So why don't you just tell us what click-through nexus is, please? Diane: Sure. Click-through nexus is a concept that New York started in 2008. And it's really just the attempt to move to a digital equivalent of paying salesman commissions which was found to be constitutional back in a case against Crypto Corporation in about 1960. And so what click-through nexus is is when a promoter or a seller and this really was intended to go after Amazon. Back in the day when all Amazon sold was books and people like you, Joe, if you wrote a book and you put a link on your website that referred people to Amazon to go buy your book that you would then get paid a commission; a referral fee or making that referral to Amazon. So Amazon was the seller. You were not. They paid you for sending somebody to them. Really no different than a salesman going around and knocking on a door and when they made a sale they would get a commission. And so what New York started and about 25 other states followed along over the years is that paying that commission to somebody in a state if they generated at least a certain amount of sales. Most states had $10,000 of sales from one or more commissioned agents that that created nexus for the out-of-state seller in this example Amazon. Joe: Yeah. And it's a term I hadn't heard of before. I'm impressed if the state of New York actually originally called it click-through nexus back in 2008. Just curious do you know if they call it something else then and have [inaudible 00:09:09.2] click-through nexus? Diane: Well what it was affectionately or unaffectionately referred to by the media was the Amazon Tax. Joe: The Amazon Tax, okay. So most people look at nexus says okay I'm selling a physical product I've got a warehouse or Amazon has a warehouse in how many different states that's where my nexus is. What this is it's for the content sellers, it's for the affiliate marketers, it's for people that are doing product reviews where you don't actually have a physical presence. You don't have the—I'm sorry, the physical product. You're writing content, you're telling the story, you're doing reviews, and somebody in Hawaii—no I'm sorry, if you're in Hawaii and you write the content and somebody buys it in Minneapolis and there's no call center, there's no physical—I'm totally screwing this up, and there's no physical warehouse there, does that mean that you've got to collect sales taxes from that person that bought it or on that sale in Minneapolis? Diane: So what it applies to is if the seller; so in this case, if you are not the seller of the content that you're just the person promoting the content for somebody else that's selling it. Joe: The person that owns the physical product [crosstalk 00:10:24.5] sales taxes. Diane: The person that owns the physical product is the one that would need to collect the tax if they make payments to you as the promoter of it. Joe: Okay, so if anyone listening sells a brand on Amazon and also chose to do the affiliate program through Amazon and is allowing others to sell that product click-through. You should be collecting nexus wherever those sales. Is it—I'm sorry it's not where those sales occur or is it where that person that wrote the blog is? Diane: It is supposed to be a combination of those two. However, that's often difficult to ascertain as to whether or not that affiliate payment generated the sale in that state. And so it really is going after where the affiliate payment is made to. Joe: I got you. Okay, we may need title this to stumble through podcasts because sales taxes are crazy and there's so much information and misinformation. And is it really gray or is it all black and white conversations going out there that I think just the more we talk about the more we'll learn about it. So let's talk about the big Wayfair decision and what has come from that. Can you touch on that; what it was and the end result of for sales tax collection? Diane: Sure. So the confusion that we just talked about with the click-through nexus actually is almost kind of going away because of the Wayfair decision and the resulting state actions. So last June 21st; so close to a year ago, the U.S. Supreme Court issued their long-awaited decision in South Dakota v. Wayfair which was a record-breaking case in terms of how fast it got to the Supreme Court. The original law was only effective in May of 2016. So for a law to be in essence validated and decided by the Supreme Court in just over two years is pretty amazing. But basically what the case was a test and when South Dakota passed their law they wrote it in such a way that they were in violation of the longstanding Supreme Court decisions and Quill Corporation and National Bellas Hess as well as the Commerce Clause. And so what the Commerce Clause said is that a state cannot impose a tax collection responsibility on an out-of-state seller unless they have a substantial presence in the state. Now what the Quill case and the National Bellas Hess case over the last 50 years had interpreted is they added a word into that Commerce Clause test. They said substantial physical presence. What the Wayfair court determined was that physical was never a word in the Commerce Clause and that the state or the prior courts had simply interpreted it to require that physical presence. So by their decision where they actually stated that their decision in Quill was wrong; and they actually said that in the decision, they were overturning that Quill decision. By doing that they said physical presence is no longer a requirement before a state can impose a collection responsibility on an out-of-state business. Rather it needs to have a substantial presence. The company has to have a substantial presence in the state. And the South Dakota law defines substantial presence as having more than $100,000 of sales or more than 200 sale transactions which we define as an invoice into the state. And so that is— Joe: Does this make nexus defined as having a 3PL or Amazon having a warehouse, does this make nexus go away and it flips to what you're talking about now? Diane: It does not. Physical presence is still the first test that needs to be identified. So if there is an Amazon warehouse and you have inventory if you're an FBA seller then the economic nexus really doesn't matter. And the thresholds that are set in the states with the economic nexus are not relevant because of the physical presence of the inventory in the warehouse. Joe: Okay but if there's no physical nexus it then flips to economic nexus. Diane: Correct. Joe: Okay, and how many states currently have adopted the economic nexus? Diane: So we have almost all; every state has either enacted it and it's effective, enacted it and it will be effective. The latest one we have going effective I believe is July 1 right now, we've got some October ones that are in propose. And we've got I think its six states left that are in proposed status right now. The only one that has rescinded and doesn't look like it will pass this year is the state of Florida. Joe: God I love the state of Florida. Diane: Right. Joe: Where on your site and which sites; Sales Tax Institute or Yetter Tax can someone go right now and figure out which states have economic nexus? Do you have something like that? Diane: We absolutely do. So you can go to SalesTaxInstitute.com and then go to our resources section and on that, you'll see a link to the remote seller nexus chart. And on that there are; that page will have all of the different types of remote seller nexus. So the click-through we talked about, affiliate, marketplace, economic, and the notice and reporting. There will also be a link on their specific economic nexus state guide which will give you all of the various different nuances of the rules for economic nexus. Joe: Look at that you've even got a video in there as well. Fantastic. Okay, part of what you do at the Sales Tax Institute is education. You're training people to understand and learn about sales taxes. Are these a combination of in-person training or is it online training as well? Diane: So we do a variety of different types of training. We have monthly webinars that are live in-person or live webinars where you can actually interact with me and ask me live questions. So we have a variety of different topics that you can look at. Joe: Is there a cost to the webinars? Diane: There is. Those cost $175 but you can have your entire team gathered around one phone line and it's a single charge. Joe: And you'll sleep better that night or maybe not at all depending on really. Diane: Exactly. Joe: When I was looking at your some of the videos I wrote down is ignorance bliss?? And I think it's not when it comes to sales taxes. And we'll get into that a little bit more but—alright so there's a monthly webinar; very, very reasonable price. Diane: A monthly live webinar, we also have some on-demand webinars, and one of the ones that might be very helpful to those of you listening now is we have a sales tax 101 webinar. And so that's on-demand. The cost of that is also $175 but you can watch it as many times as you want in 30 days. And that will go through and give you all the basic concepts and it was updated after the Wayfair decision so it's got a lot of the current information about what's going on today. So we've got I think it's five on-demands and then we also have live in-person classes. So we have a three-day basics of sales tax class if you really need to get in depth. That's held in June annually and then we have; it is usually in Chicago. Joe: Okay. Diane: And then our advanced workshop is for people with four or more years of experience and that is held annually in the April-May. We just had that this year in Chicago and next year we'll be out on the West Coast. We also have a; we've offered it twice now, a nine-week online class. We call it sales tax jumpstart. So we will offer that again in September. Exact date not yet defined. And that is really meant and who a lot of our attendees have been in our first two cohorts of that are people that are like your listeners Joe that are smaller businesses, can't get away for three full days of sales tax, and we give them basically all the steps and tools for what they need to do to be compliant. So we break it down into two-hour blocks over nine weeks. And we also share with them a lot of the tools we use in advising our clients. So we try to help them be more self-sufficient. Joe: You know it's interesting as you're talking I know that we're sharing your URL. I mean we're 15 minutes into the podcast and we normally don't pitch and promote the people that are on. It's not about that it's about education. But I think that this is education that you can't listen to it; this podcast and understand everything about sales taxes. So I think I'm having Diane's share this folks early because this information is so complex and so in-depth and changing on a monthly basis because new states are enacting the economic nexus and you need to have some sort of downloadable chart to understand it. Or better yet Diane what we do here often is tell people to outsource. Like you can do the bookkeeping yourself but you're probably a marketer so focus on marketing and outsource the bookkeeping. Yeah, there's legal stuff you've got to do for your business, don't hire an attorney and bring them in-house so you'd outsource that. Why in the world does an entrepreneur that's running a small business with let's say a staff of six need to go through the Sales Tax Institute and learn all of these things themselves when they can hire a company just to do it all for them. I know you don't do that; you train, you educate, you consult. Why not just hire a company to do it all? Again is that a little bit of ignorance is bliss you still have to know it or can you just hire one of these firms that we hear about that will help you set it up and collect and pay the states, what to do and you just don't worry about it. Is that a fantasy? Diane: It's not exactly. You could certainly hire. There are a couple of different things that you need to do. If you're selling on a marketplace platform there are less requirements that you need to worry about and that is because the actual tax calculation is going to be handled by the marketplace. Joe: Let's call the marketplace Amazon. Is that Amazon is going to collect them? Diane: Amazon is the marketplace; correct. If you're selling on Amazon you don't need to acquire software to calculate the tax because Amazon is calculating the tax on that order. Now Amazon is going to send you the data and the financial dollars that they collect in the sales tax. In some of the states, you are going to have to prepare the sales tax return and remit that tax directly to the state. Now the trend that we're seeing in 2019 is states are saying you know what we're going to remove the burden to the sellers that sell on marketplaces and put that tax collection and remittance responsibility on the marketplaces. And so we've got a vast number of states that already have enacted that legislation. And we've got a large number of states that have it still proposed this year. We call this our marketplace nexus on our charts. And so what we're assuming is that—I think there's only five or six states that don't have any legislation proposed to this year or passed yet. And the rest of them are really moving towards saying we're going to remove that burden. Joe: Okay I just want to say. I love that. I love all in capital letters marketplace nexus because that takes the burden out of the hand of the entrepreneur, right? I mean they're just— Diane: It does as long as they are only selling on a marketplace. Joe: Right. Diane: I think what we find is a lot of the sellers that sell on marketplaces also have their own website. Joe: They should. In my opinion, it'll bring a higher value. The problem is that Amazon is growing at such a pace. There are more businesses that used to be 75% let's say Shopify, 25%t Amazon and now it's flipped. Diane: Right. Joe: That will level out over time I'm sure. But yeah let's talk about that. So somebody that is selling on third-party marketplaces but they've also got an Amazon store—I mean their own website, even if they're only selling 5% of their total revenues. Diane: Correct. So where it gets challenging is most of the states require you to include the sales on the marketplaces along with your direct sales in determining whether or not you exceed the threshold to determine if you have substantial taxes. With most states its $100,000 of sales or 200 transactions. So if you're very successful on Amazon and only selling maybe 5 to 20% of your sales are on your own website then you still may exceed those thresholds. And now you do need to have some sort of solution in your direct sales to calculate the tax and then you'll have the responsibility for remitting it. So yes there are companies that sell software that can integrate with your e-commerce platform. Some of the e-commerce platforms have some of the software baked in so to speak so that you don't have to separately license it. Joe: Which ones have that baked in? Diane: So Shopify Plus has a baked-in version of Avalara. Magento I think has some baked in of either Avalara or [inaudible 00:23:58.2] depending upon the version that you're on but others you may have to pay a license fee for that calculation side. The second piece of it is once you calculate and collect the tax you need to remit that tax to the various different tax authorities. Those software companies also could do that for you as an outsource, your bookkeeper may be able to do that for you, and there are also other firms that we work with that are just sales tax outsourcing compliance, providers. My firm doesn't do that but we do work with other firms that do. Joe: Do you have references for those firms on your website? Diane: We do. Joe: Okay. Diane: We got those on our website. Joe: So what would happen if somebody signs up for Shopify plus they collect all this money and they don't properly set up the remittance or the payment to the states? How long is it going to take for the states to figure out and what are they going to do? Diane: Well collecting tax and not remitting it is about the worst thing you can do. Joe: Can we call that a crime? Diane: It actually is criminal fraud. It will earn you an orange jumpsuit. Joe: It is the new black so that's— Diane: It is the new black. You're right. Joe: Thank you. I have to say it. Sorry, everyone. Diane: You had to. Everybody does. So just as you never want to be withholding income taxes from your employee's paychecks and not turn those over to the government collecting sales tax and not remitting it is at that same level. Sales taxes when you collected are considered trust taxes. So you need to make sure that you are remitting the tax that you collect. How quickly will the state find you? That really depends. Often it can happen because an auditor bought something from you and then doesn't see you registered. Or it could be a customer that complains. Joe: That could just be bad luck. Do the right thing folks; do the right thing. Ignorance is definitely not bliss. Let's talk about this a little bit. We're 20 minutes in let's get to the meat of what—say potential buyers and potential sellers are concerned about with both marketplace nexus and economic nexus know, right? Alright, I'm going to just redefine the economic nexus. I get that's when you hit a certain threshold. What's the first nexus? Oh, it's physical nexus. Diane: Physical; correct. Joe: Alright. So yeah this is the stumble through podcast. I'm going to rename it all. Okay, so we've got a business for sale. They've done four million dollars in revenue in the last 12 months. Let's just say they're keeping 20% so the profits are $800,000. The business is for sale for three and a half, four-time multiple and they get three point two million dollars. And let's say that they've been around for five years. They're selling on third-party marketplaces at this point it's probably that 75% there and 25% elsewhere on their own Shopify store, Zulily whatever the case might be. If they're only collecting sales taxes where they have physical nexus and in their own home state and I buy the business; it's an asset sale, not a stock sale. Diane: Right. Joe: What's the risk to me if any? Diane: So I think the first thing is if they're actually collecting in all of the states who have physical presence; so where they've got inventory sitting in an Amazon warehouse they're steps ahead because that's where we're finding a lot of the risk is that these Amazon sellers are not collecting in the states where there is inventory in the warehouse. So if the only risk that they have are the states where there was economic nexus past which the earliest the state goes back on any of that for all practical purposes we have a couple of outliers is June 21st which is the date of the decision 2018 with New York. We've got Massachusetts and Ohio that go back a little bit further because they have something just to add a little bit more confusion to it Joe that's referred to as cookie nexus which is a digital present. So if you drop cookies which every Amazon seller is dropping cookies on their visitor's websites—on their devices so that they can track them. That was deemed to be a physical presence in both Ohio and Massachusetts so they go back a little bit further. Let's take those guys out. Joe: Okay. Diane: So if we're saying today we're selling our business we've been registered in all of my Amazon warehouse states and I've just got economic nexus going back almost a year. And if I haven't been registered in those states then there is a risk although we think that it's probably not a great risk if it is just the economic nexus. Okay? Average sales tax rate across the country is somewhere between 8 ½, 9% is the average rate. Of course, we've got some lower and we've got some higher. And so your risk is not 8 ½% of your profit but 8% of your gross sales. And so it's 8 ½% of—let's say 25% of your 4 million is in economic only nexus, 8 ½% of your million for the last year of sales. Joe: And then you've got to further divide it up into—you've got to hit that economic nexus in those individual states. And with where you've got the physical nexus we're going to count that money and see if we hit that average $100,000 threshold or 200 transactions. It's very complex. Almost to the point where it makes me wonder if that state employee in the sales tax division making whatever they make really cares and is going to dig deep to try to find you that sold a widget after you've sold all the assets of your business. What is the process the state goes through to identify people that are selling products that didn't collect sales taxes properly? Diane: So just as probably most of the sellers listening to this podcast are using data analytics to figure out what should they price their products at, what is a hot product to sell, the states are starting to use data analytics and advanced methods to identify sellers. They've also used methods including subpoenaing; their subpoena power to go to Amazon and ask for the list of the sellers in their states. So we've seen I think about eight or nine states that have done that including New York and Connecticut and North Carolina, Wisconsin, California, Washington. So those are some of the states that have actually gotten that list of those sellers. And we know sellers have gotten those letters from those states saying we think you should be registered. Joe: Okay, they can figure it out is essentially what we're trying to say here. Let's talk about the risk to the—you said the risk to the seller it's still minimum if you've been collecting where you have physical nexus. So great that's the minimum. Well, what about the person that buys the business? And I'm going to try to say this in simple terms and you tell me, correct me, or lead me back on the right path here. Diane: Okay. Joe: Let's say I bought a business. I buy that business for three million dollars and it turns out that you; the seller didn't collect and pay on all the economic nexus that you may have had during your ownership and a few states figure this out and they go after you; your corporation. They're going to go after Diane's brand LLC. First, they're going to try to go after the state after you and if it's an empty—well if the LLC is an empty shell if you ever pierce that LLC by running personal stuff with a business they can then go after you personally for that. And then if you can't pay it on either of those things you're going to go okay well the assets are still being sold, the brand is still out there. I wonder who bought it. Let's go after them. Is that the right path and can they get all the way through to me if they first go after your LLC, can't get money out of the LLC, it's an empty shell or you closed it, okay fine they go after you because you pierced that corporate shell at one point, you're bankrupt, you've got nothing. Can they go after me and if so what's the real risk to me the buyer? Diane: They can and to clarify just a couple of things. Even without doing anything to pierce the LLC all the states have provisions that allow them to go after the officers, the owners, or responsible parties whether the business has been closed down or not. Joe: But everything else was I generally on the right path there in terms of the way it would work? Diane: Correct. They can and there is also provisions that they have that are called successor liabilities. So that means that if they sell the business then they can go after the seller—I'm sorry after the buyer. Joe: Let's just put a point of clarification on that successor liability, you said sell the business. These are assets sales for the most part. They're buying the assets of the business, not the entity itself. Does that successor liability carry through in that case? Diane: It does. Joe: Okay, are they going to go to that successor first or is that going to be the last resort? Diane: It depends on the state and it also can depend on whether or not the rules were followed. Most of the states have something called a bulk sale notification requirement that applies on the sale of bulk assets. So this is not typically required on a stock deal but it is required on an asset deal. And so if you sell those assets there is a requirement that the state be put on notice that that is happening so that they can do a couple of different things. One they now know that this transaction is occurring. In some states, there might actually be a tax on the transaction itself. The second thing is that it gives the state the opportunity to give what's called the tax clearance certificate. So if they've recently done an audit let's say of the seller they can tell the buyer this is all clear. If there hasn't been a sale made or if God forbid the company has not been registered in the state then they can provide information to the buyer in terms of an amount to put into escrow and withhold from the purchase price. Joe: Again though I'm trying to just visualize how that heck the state is going to do this. I buy the assets of the business. It's Diane's brand. I go to the state of North Carolina to get a tax clearance certificate or—no that's for the past is that right? Diane: Correct. Joe: So I want to start collecting sales taxes on my newly formed corporation for Diane's brands. Diane: Correct. Joe: And I do that there's going to—and I actually think I know the answer here. I was going to say how the heck is the state going to know that they were everest passed sales. Diane: Right. Joe: There's a questionnaire that I have to answer that have there been past sales. A few things, I mean I've heard some people just say no or whatever, people in authority, people that are experts like you, I've seen attorneys on this bulk sale notification go yeah no we're not doing that. Are these people just flat out wrong or is it—look the key thing here is risk. I think what I'm trying to help people understand and I need you to throw out numbers for me. I'm trying to understand the odds because that's what these sellers and buyers are going to look at because you can't change the past. You can't change what you did four years ago in terms of sales tax collection. In some case, you don't have to because economic nexus didn't exist back then. But what are the odds of this carrying through in this scenario? Again I'm buying your brand. You've been around. You sold four million bucks in the last 12 months. And I know you can't do this everybody calls labor the legend and I remember just after college I was at a temp agency trying to get a job and had to take a typing test. Diane: Yes. Joe: And I did it. And I was terrible. Terrible was like 82% accuracy at the time and the guy tells me it was. But I'm like what are you talking about. Like Larry Bird shot 66% from the free throw line and he was a legend. That actually got me the job nothing else; my expertise and anything else nothing. But Larry the Legend got me the odds, percentages; that's what people want to know. So I'm buying it. How much—is this going to keep me up at night or is there like a five or 10% risk here that some of this may carry through? Diane: So I think it depends on a couple of factors. So I hate to give you a fudged answer but here's a couple. Joe: I have to put you on the spot. We are recording. Diane: Yeah. So here's a couple of things that come into play. If the only nexus is economic I think the risk is fairly low. If you have been an FBA seller you've got inventory in the state and you haven't been collecting. I think that risk is significantly higher because there is now ways that the states are getting that information. Joe: Fairly low is 3% is that what you're talking? Diane: I would say transactions happening within the first year, we're saying it's probably—you know will the state come after somebody for economic less than 20% chance. Joe: Okay but first I bought your brand; first I'm going to go after you. First, they're going to go after your LLC then they're going to go after you. If they can't get money from either of those then they're going to come after me. So is that 20% on me or is it 20% first to you and then you're all saying— Diane: I think it's about 20% that they're going to go and find that an economic seller did not register when they should have; an economic nexus seller. Joe: And unless you're bankrupt they're going to take money from you first. Diane: Correct. Joe: And how do they get that money? Diane: They will do an audit. So they will look at your books for reference and then they will calculate an assessment. Joe: And if you can't write them a check you're going to work out a payment program. Diane: Correct. Joe: They are attorneys that can negotiate that down. Diane: Correct. Joe: All that still applies? Diane: Yup that would still apply. Joe: Okay, so economic nexus pretty low. Diane: Correct. Joe: Physical nexus fairly high but again even though their sell-through nexus—is that what you call it? There's so many different nexus here. The physical first; they're going to go after you first. The buyers here the concern should be fairly low unless the seller of the business is ultimately going to be filing for bankruptcy and there's no money there, right? Diane: Correct. And how you would get caught as you said when you're filling out your registration application for your business because now you're going to be compliant. One of the questions that is on there is did you buy this business from anybody else. And that's on I think virtually every state application. And that's how it would be identified. Now if you choose to leave that blank the applications are signed under penalty of perjury. Although I have never seen a state actually pursue perjury charges on somebody that answered the questionnaire incorrectly; I got to advise you that that's what it says. Joe: Sure. Okay, and we are 35 minutes in and generally we want to keep this short. Honestly, I feel like I could talk to you about this for another 35 minutes but I don't dare because the listeners would just drop right off a cliff. So Sales Tax Institute, Yetter Tax, what resources; we talked about them at the beginning and I was writing down—I can't even read my own notes, what resources are you making available on the length that we're providing. You're giving us a link on the QoP podcast so we know it's there and you're providing some specific resources for anybody listening. What are those? Diane: Correct. So we're going to make it easy for your listeners Joe. We're going to give you a specific link, SalesTaxInstitute.com/quiet-light-podcast and we're going to load all of these great resources that we talked about right there so it'll be one place that your listeners can go to. And on there we're going to give them the ability to download our white paper that talks all about these different kinds of nexuses and what you need to do. We're going to give them the link to what we call our remote seller nexus chart which will include all the different types of nexus; click-through affiliate which is common ownership and agencies doing things on your behalf, the economic nexus, the marketplace nexus, and the one that we didn't have time to get into which is the awful notice and reporting which is when you don't collect tax. So that chart will be on there. We're going to have a chart for the economic nexus which is all the states and the different thresholds by state, their actual effective dates, what dollars do you include in doing that threshold calculation. We're going to give you a link to one of our greatest FAQs about what is nexus that has a little video about all of those nexus types explaining what they are. And then we also offer a service called our Wayfair Risk Analysis. We can take your data and go through and do the analysis to figure out what your risk is as well as where should you be right. Joe: I love that. I hate that we're at the end of the podcast for that part of it because a lot of people just want to have this done for them. So you can do a risk analysis as part of— Diane: Absolutely. Joe: And do they—is that through Yetter Tax or the Sales Tax; since it'd actually to be through the link but look people listen and then they type it in. So if they go to is it Yetter Tax would they be able to figure out that analysis? Diane: The easiest thing to do is go to the SalesTaxInstitute.com and then click on the consultation button. Joe: I got it. Diane: Then you will see a link to our Wayfair Risk Analysis there. Joe: Alright, Diane you know your stuff. You are a sales tax nerd. I see it. I'm not insulting you. I see that on your Twitter handle. Thank you for being such a nerd and understanding this and sharing the knowledge with everyone here. Ignorance is not bliss. Learn about sales taxes because if you don't it's going to come up and bite you somewhere unpleasant and that's in your wallet. Thank you for your time, Diane. I greatly appreciate it. Diane: Thank you, Joe. It's been a pleasure. Links and Resources: https://www.salestaxinstitute.com/quiet-light-podcast https://www.salestaxinstitute.com http://www.yettertax.com/ https://www.linkedin.com/in/dianeyetter https://twitter.com/yettertax?lang=en Economic Nexus State Guide: https://www.salestaxinstitute.com/resources/economic-nexus-state-guide Remote Seller Chart: https://www.salestaxinstitute.com/resources/remote-seller-nexus-chart Wayfair Risk Analysis: https://www.salestaxinstitute.com/wayfair-risk-analysis Sales Tax Software Vendors: https://www.salestaxinstitute.com/resources/tax-software FAQ: What do I need to know about the Wayfair Case and Economic Nexus?: https://www.salestaxinstitute.com/sales_tax_faqs/wayfair-economic-nexus FAQ: What is nexus? : https://www.salestaxinstitute.com/sales_tax_faqs/what_is_nexus Whitepaper: Nexus after Wayfair – What you need to Know: https://www.salestaxinstitute.com/resources/five-things-to-understand-nexus-whitepaper Sales Tax 101 On-Demand Webinar: https://www.salestaxinstitute.com/sales-tax-education/sales-tax-101-on-demand-webinar Sales Tax Jumpstart Live Online Class: https://www.salestaxinstitute.com/sales-tax-education/sales-tax-jumpstart Consulting Service: http://www.yettertax.com/about-us-services/

Comments on The Pez Collection Podcast? 888-563-3228 Description The Pez Collection Podcast is all about Pez®! Justin and Andrea are your hosts as they connect with the community and talk about the world of Pez! Go out and dispense some good today! Website https://www.thepezcollection.com/ Opinion The intro was somewhat ruined by Justin's horrible audio quality. It sounds like he is five feet from the microphone. Joe is the guest and he had better audio quality. You don't need to spend a ton of cash, but a Samson Q2U (www.schoolofpodcasting.com/q2u or www.schoolofpodcasting.com/q2upackage ) is a great microphone and would boost the quality quickly. I like the chemistry and the passion for Pez. You have the curse of knowledge here. You know how Joe is and seem excited that he is on your show and you start talking about his videos and other things assuming the audience: Knows who he is (we don't) Have seen his videos (we haven't) Know what Joe WHAT! is (we don't) So if you had explained who he is, why he is interesting, and why you are having him on your show. You didn't get to the first Pez question until about four minutes in. When he had issues with his headphones that could've easily been edited out, and his story could've have been tightened up. This wasn't horrible but would make a better flow of the podcast. I did an episode on editing at www.schoolofpodcasting.com/665There was a fair amount of information on "Joe What?" instead of the Pez talk (you didn't bring him on to talk about Joe What did you?).With improved audio quality, and a little more focus and editing, this could be a great show for the Pez Community. Get A Full Review If you’d like a full review of your podcast, check out Podcast Review Show or if you need Podcast Consulting, Book an Appointment Today Get Your Podcast Reviewed Sign up at Fiverr. comGet a full review on the Podcast Review Show. Free Subscription to the Podcast Rodeo Show Subscribe to the show and never miss another episode on Google Podcasts and Apple Podcasts. For more options see www.podcastrodeoshow.com/subscribe Work With Me Start your podcast with a membership to the School of Podcasting, or let me be your podcast mentor and guide and work side by side.

The purchase process for first-time e-commerce buyers is rarely stress-free. Today's guest is here to take us through his acquisition from inception to completion. He openly talks about the vetting, the financing, the due diligence process, and the seller/buyer relationship. We also discuss the wins and losses, and how they played off on each other in the six to eight months after the purchase. Finding himself near the end of his career, Rocky Cleborne was looking for something else. As an almost-retiree from the automobile industry, he decided to purchase his first business. Rocky reviewed numerous businesses and performed extensive vettings of fourteen of them before finally deciding on an e-commerce jewelry business. As we've mentioned before, surrounding yourself with smart, experienced people and being the right type of person yourself are often the keys to successful acquisitions. The highest offer is not always necessarily the one that wins the bid for the business. Episode Highlights: The vetting process Rocky went through before deciding on Novadab. How many offers he made out of the 14 businesses he considered buying. How using Centurica services helped Rocky through the process. The SBA lending process and how much Rocky had to come up with in his deal. Rocky's business model and where his e-commerce products are being sold (hint, it's not all Amazon). Mistakes he made in the early days of the transition to e-commerce and sourcing. The customer experience Novadab provides for their 12,000 orders each month. Rocky's email marketing strategy. The business's growth percentage since the purchase. How he's formed a partnership with a surprising partner and how that partnership is fueling growth both in Novadab and beyond. The losses and wins Rocky experienced during the transition process. Transcription: Mark: Joe over the past several years I have sat down and had coffee with people who are looking to buy their 1st online business and we talk a lot about what does that process like. How do you go about finding that right opportunity? How do you vet that opportunity? And then even afterwards what does it look like after you do the acquisition and are spending the 1st several months in there what you would be expecting as far as wins and losses. I love it when we have the opportunity to bring somebody on who has gone through this process and they're totally an open book willing to share what they did. You had Rocky on who you sold a business to to talk just about that. Joe: Yeah and actually I wasn't the broker. I had Rocky make offers on several of my listings and he wasn't the winning bid or the chosen one and eventually he bought one from Amanda and he openly talks about that process of buying the business, the successes that he's had, the financing that he did, some of his big wins and some of his big losses, and how they sort of played off on each other in the six to eight months after he bought the business. Mark: Well, it's great. Now we also have a really exciting announcement here. We had somebody guess one of the movie quotes from the intro Mike K. right? It was Mike K. Joe: Come on now. Mark: I can't pronounce his last name. I'm sorry Mike. Chris, our producer is in here with me; what's his name, Chris? Chris: Koregnept. Mark: Koregnept. Alright, so Mike Koregnept Big Short from the very first intro that we ran. Thank you, Mike, for doing that and hey guys if you're listening and you know the quote send us an e-mail. C'mon send it over. Let us know where it's from and if you use Google tell us; be honest because that's the only way I can ever guess any of these movie intros. I'm not going to at game at all. Joe: Let's do one more thing though Mike I want you to call me, leave me a voicemail message with the proper pronunciation of your last name and we'll air in on one of the upcoming episodes. Mark: That's a really good idea. So let's get back over to the actual topic let's talk about Rocky and the process that he used to acquire his business. Joe: I'm recording; you can see that in the corner. Hey folks, it's Joe from Quiet Light Brokerage and this is another episode of the Quiet Light Podcast and yes you heard me say I'm recording right at the beginning because I have Rocky on the line with me. Rocky pronounce your last name for me; go ahead. Rocky: It's Cleborne. Joe: Cleborne; so easy, spelled funny but so easy. Rocky and I have talked twice in the last week because yes I recorded the best podcast ever last Tuesday with Rocky but I didn't actually do what Rocky? Rocky: Hit the record button. Joe: Exactly! So we're back at it. In the podcast world, everybody has a story of at least one time forgetting to hit record and it happened to us last week. So I'm glad you're back; glad you had time but I think it's appropriate that we didn't do it two minutes after I realized when we were wrapping up that I forgot to hit record. Okay, enough babbling. Rocky Cleborne tell us about yourself; who are you what's your background? Rocky: Well, my name is Rocky Cleborne and after I graduated from college I ended up starting some businesses that I turned around and then sold. I got into the automobile business in the late '90s and became a general manager of a number of large automobile dealerships; some of which were selling over 600 cars a month. I've been doing that for over 20 years and then decided that I wanted to retire but knew that I didn't want to just sit around and do nothing because that's not who I am and so I decided that I would buy a business. At first, I looked at brick and mortar businesses and then I said I wanted to be more cutting edge than that and decided that I would look at e-commerce businesses. I did some vetting and some research. I came across Quiet Light Brokerage and the rest is history as they say. Joe: So you are an almost retiree that is in the automobile industry which is about as old school as it gets and you do what? You buy an e-commerce business and it's not only that but it's a jewelry e-commerce business. Rocky: Yes indeed and the company is called Novadab and I wanted to end up getting a business that had higher margins and that the jewelry business definitely has and I wanted to be able to end up operating the business with my daughter and so she has joined me in this venture and we really, really enjoy it very, very much. Joe: Well, good. So I want to take your life experience in terms of being in business and talk a little bit about the search process that you went through, the vetting process because I know you looked at a lot of deals; we looked at a few together, and then your financing; how you decided to pay for this business and talk a little bit about some of the wins and losses you've had along the way. But before I do that folks I want to say that you've heard me say it, you've heard Mark say it in the past that who you are as a buyer and how you behave as a buyer makes a huge difference in terms of getting the deal done not just with the broker. Well we're here to help both sides of the transaction no matter what and sometimes it does matter in terms of the likability of you the buyer because if we're in a multiple offer situation our client; the seller is going to say who do you like, what do you think, who are we going to get through due diligence with and all the way to closing, and they're going to say who do you think would be better to work with after closing in transition and training? And Rocky is that type of guy. You struck me … well, what you bought this last fall, in fall of 2018 and we've talked a few times before that and then lo and behold I hear you're under LOI and under contract with a deal that Amanda had and excited about it. I even got an e-mail from her and from the lender Stephen Speer about what a great guy you were; so good for you and folks this is what it takes some time. So again, alright Rocky tell us about your vetting process. How long did it take you to find Novadab and how many deals did you look at, and how many deals did you make an offer on? And I know you're going to come up with ballpark numbers because you probably looked at more than you can remember. Rocky: Well, that's true I did look at quite a number of them actually. I started the process February of last year and I looked at quite a few businesses. As a matter of fact, I did do some research and found out that I had actually in-depth researched over 14 businesses that I was trying to end up purchasing. I utilized a company called Centurica with Chris Yates. I actually did quite a bit of study for me because I learned early in life that you want to surround yourself with people that are knowledgeable of the businesses that you're looking to try to purchase and also know what you don't know and I certainly … and I was very, very glad to end up having Chris being part of this search process as well as helping me do the analysis because two heads are better than one and he provided me some great insight and as a matter of fact prevented me from … or didn't prevent me but certainly lend some insight as to why I wouldn't want to purchase certain businesses out there. So we did some due diligence together. I ultimately landed on Novadab and then through that same process and through a podcast I was introduced to Stephen Speer and Stephen really again if you want to surround yourself with really, really smart people that are hardworking and I give it back to you all at Quiet Light and also Stephen Speer and Chris Yates in guiding me to a purchase that ultimately I've been very, very happy with and have enjoyed as I say operating with my daughter. Joe: So you started in February 2018, when did you close on Novadab? Rocky: August 23rd. Joe: August 23rd, so just about eight months … no six months. Rocky: Six months. Joe: I always … I actually did this today, I talked to a buyer today and I said look man trying to find that perfect business is like looking for a needle in a haystack inside of a giant big ass haystack and he said absolutely. He's looked over 53 cases; he looked at 53 of our listings in the last I think probably 12 months, so a lot more than you've probably looked at. How many of the businesses that you looked at did you … you said you looked at 14 in depth; how many of those did you make offers on? Rocky: I actually only made offers on five of them and one of them actually was one of your offers where I was reaching for that brass rain if you will but because I hadn't been in the e-commerce business previously we felt that it wasn't something that we could end up doing and securing the financing ultimately with Stephen. So while I reached for it and wanted to try to do it I'm certainly glad that we ended up where we did in purchasing Novadab. Joe: Good. Alright so quickly and I don't mean to plug Centurica, we don't get any referral fees. They're not an advertiser but what I've talked about historically with Centurica is that once you're under a Letter Of Intent they will help you with due diligence. We give a great deal of information on our listings but no matter what you're going to want to dig deep. You're going to want to look at bank statements, vendor invoices, Amazon statements, credit card statements, all of that in due diligence and when you do an SBA deal like you did Rocky with Stephen at First Home Bank and they've got a 3rd party valuation team, they've got an underwriting team, and they're going to dig in and vet the business as well. So you've got lots of people that are helping but one of the things that Centurica did for you just to make sure if I understand it is that they didn't just help you with due diligence once under LOI, they helped you with the search process as well and it made sense in advance of making the offer and going under a Letter Of Intent; correct? Rocky: Yes, indeed they did. In fact, Chris and I took a look at a number of different businesses together and looked at the attributes, the positive things about the different businesses and how they might indeed tie into my skill set or not necessarily tie into my skill set. And by doing that he really helped guide me to purchasing a business that fit my skill set that I could then expand upon and ultimately grow the way that we actually have grown the business over the last six months. So he was involved from day one with the search for a business and really provided me that hand holding that when you're investing the kind of money that you invest in these businesses really gives you somebody to lean on and obtain incurred information. Joe: Cool. I want to get into the growth but let's hold off on that just for a moment because I do want to learn there. Stephen Speer of Bank United another great one that they're working with is Bruce Marks at Radius Bank for those listening. And if anyone listening has an amazing SBA lender please shoot me an e-mail at Joe@QuietLightBrokerage and make an introduction; the more the merrier. Bruce and Stephen though are top notch. I don't think you'd go wrong with them at all. Okay in regards to the SBA lending process we're not going to talk about the purchase price of the business here but generally, depending on the deal size the lenders are looking for something from 10 to 25% equity infusion and that can come from the buyer and the seller or from just the buyer. Rocky in purchasing this business how much percentage of the overall deal did you have to come up with? Rocky: I ended up coming out with approximately 20% of the overall deal including the inventory and there were some reasons behind that that I did not want to end up pledging my home is a security with the SBA which they looked to try to do and so in exchange for that I put up some additional equity in order to not have my home secure. And it was really quite interesting, the sellers also took back a note for 15% of the total deal and it was interesting in that when we did the interview as you mentioned previously on this podcast how important it really is to end up building a relationship with the seller. Everybody thinks that when they're a buyer that they're in the driver's seat and when you have as much demand for e-commerce businesses particularly the good e-commerce businesses that you really want to buy; you're the one that's being interviewed as a buyer to end up buying that business and you really should treat it as an interview because you are being interviewed by the seller. They've taken a lot of their hard work and really it's their baby if you will and they've owned it and brought it to where it is and now they're turning around and trusting you with it so you want to end up making a good impression and certainly during that interview process you want to make sure that you put your best foot forward. What ultimately happened for me is that I … like many others faced a situation where there were multiple offers on the business; mine was not the highest of offers, in fact, mine was about $50,000 less than the next offer. Joe: Wow. Rocky: He took my offer and it's great because the two of us are still talking with each other on a regular basis and in fact, we've formed another business that we could talk about later. Joe: Good for you, you found another business together in your retirement years. Rocky: Yes indeed. Joe: Crazy Rocky that's what I'm going to call you from now on. It's interesting being likable on those calls gets you … obviously, you got the deal $50,000 less than the highest bidder but also a 15% seller note. That's not standard. I think the highest I've seen and I've done a fair amount of SBA deals is 10% so good for you. This total 35% equity infusion is interesting; 20% from you, 15% seller note for the seller and it's news to me that the equity infusion that you brought to the table scratched the requirement by the lender to have your house as collateral on the business so that's fantastic, good news there. Let's talk about— Rocky: That was thanks to Stephen as well. He did the negotiation for me with that as well. Joe: That's terrific. Let's talk about the transition and training period here. You've got a physical product business, the business model itself is not your standard typical e-commerce business where you're selling on let's say a Shopify store and Amazon you're also selling on I don't want to call them daily deal sites, how would you classify Zoot Wulily; hold on let's just talk about my mispronunciation. I said Zoot and Wulily, I meant Woot and Zulily and Groupon, things of that nature. Okay enough, we can make fun of me all day long; it'll be a long podcast. Tell us about the model where your products are being sold so that everybody understands the business model itself. Rocky: Sure our biggest partner happens to be Groupon, and Zulily is our 2nd biggest partner. We only do at this point about 10% of our business on Amazon, the rest are on deal sites as you mentioned. We have a company called MobStub that we do business with, OpenSky and some of Walmart of course and some of the other platforms that really are great opportunities for growth for us but our … what's called a preferred vendor on both Zulily and on Groupon and it works out very, very well for all of us. Joe: We don't have enough conversation about deal sites like Groupon, Zulily, Woot; all of them and I think the key … tell me if I'm wrong and expand on if I'm right but the key to success on deal sites like that is SKU counts and new SKUs and being able to present new products on a regular basis. Is that right; is that what sets you apart and allows you to do business with them on a regular basis? Rocky: Very much so; they are looking for new products to list on their sites and what we do is we try to do three new products a week on each on the Groupon site as an example. And by doing that we can end up growing along with them and they can present fresh products to their customers on a regular basis. So we vet the products out, we put them on their site, and ultimately we get orders from their customers of course and it helps us grow our business on our home site because they'll order their initial product from say Groupon or Zulily but because we send our product out branded with branded boxes or bags they then could come to our website and we really have done quite a bit of growth through our website and our e-mails because of those different vending platforms. Joe: That's fantastic. So in this situation are you using a 3PL or are you fulfilling orders yourself? Rocky: We fulfill our orders ourselves. I've got a wonderful team of people here in New Hampshire. In fact, we moved the business from Texas to New Hampshire over the Labor Day weekend and did not miss any orders that were placed with those portals that were wired to ship within a certain period of time. And the women that fulfill our orders here do an awesome, awesome job and we're very, very glad to end up being able to provide not only jobs for them but also we take real care in presenting our product to our customers. And because we have control of it we really feel as though it gets into the hands of our customers in a timely fashion and also with it having looking its best. Joe: Did the company come with any outsourced VA's that transferred with the business or did you take it over with your daughter? Rocky: Well, my daughter and I took it over and she does the day to day operations but we ended up having a wonderful team in India. As a matter of fact, we're going through some of the mistakes that I made in why that team ended up being so very important to our ultimate success. When I bought the business we had just about 510 SKUs, during the last quarter of the year I increased those number of SKUs from 510 to over 800. Joe: Wow. Rocky: And it was … I thought pretty easy; you just go out, you source the product, you bring it in, you just get some pictures, put it online, put some marketing behind it and you're all good to go. Joe: Simple; I mean its e-commerce, that's all it takes right? Rocky: That's all it takes. Joe: So I'm sensing we're going to have a valuable lesson come out of this. Rocky: Yes very much a valuable lesson but out of a few mistakes comes your biggest opportunities as well and what happened was I would go out and I would source all of this product and be bringing it in and bringing in and it was a little bit overwhelming to our people at the warehouse as far as stocking it in; having the SKUs. You have to create those SKUs, you have to end up picturing them, get them on the website, and so our team in India provided us with all of that necessary grunt work I'll call it to be able to assign SKUs, to be able to get our pictures taken, to be able to help us with the marketing of the product, and ultimately our customer satisfaction as well because with this size of business that we have we ship about 12,000 orders on average a month. Joe: 12,000 orders a month; that's amazing. Rocky: Yeah and in doing that we certainly have customers that we want to make sure that are taken care of and so we have four customer service people in India, we have a graphics designer, we have a website developer, and a number of other people that help us really execute the plan. We couldn't be where we are today and have experienced the growth we've experienced without their help. Joe: Rocky, you're in 12,000 I mean that's 400 orders a day are you capturing e-mail addresses for every single one of those customers? Rocky: Almost all of them. Joe: Are you're doing any e-mail marketing? Rocky: Absolutely we have about 125,000 e-mail addresses at this time and we e-mail market every single day; Monday thru Sunday. Joe: What software are you using? Rocky: We're using Mailchimp. Joe: Mailchimp; you need to go to EcomCrew.com and listen to Mike Jackness talk about his e-mail campaigns that he does on one of his businesses. I actually just sold up listings of business of Mike's and it's that business that he talks about. He goes all around the world speaking about it. He doesn't use Mailchimp, he uses Klaviyo and the getting 400 new email addresses a day 12,000 a month is gold to somebody with the skill set to be able to send additional e-mails. And with the volume of SKUs you have I would think that that's a growth opportunity; a huge one for you. Not that I know anything about it, Mike knows everything about it. So EcomCrew.com for anybody listening that wants to do e-mail marketing and Klaviyo as well I think you should check it out. So I know you love listening to the Quiet Light Podcast but I'm going to point you over to EcomCrew too. Let's talk briefly about your growth, I mean 12,000 orders a month is great; how many orders a month was it doing when you bought the business eight months ago? Rocky: We've actually experienced about 60% growth overall. Joe: 60% growth and you used to run automobile dealerships; you had no … other than e-commerce websites for the auto dealerships, did you have any e-commerce business experience? Rocky: No, actually I do not. Joe: What is fueling that growth other than your wisdom and your brilliance Rocky? What is happening here; how are you doing this? Let's just say it's your daughter man because she's going to listen to this. Rocky: Yes; absolutely. It goes back to realistically I was able to purchase a business where the gentleman who sold me the business is still actively helping me run the business. And so that really helps quite a bit. It goes back to the relationship that he and I built when he was selling the business to me. Joe: Is he being paid for that beyond the sale of the business and the transition and training period? Is it a consulting deal or he's just a really nice guy? Rocky: No, he is a nice guy; I will say that he's not being paid to end up doing the consulting work. What happened was we ended up forming because of my mistakes of adding these 300 SKUs at the end of the year we formed some businesses; two businesses together and so he wants to end up helping me continue to run Novadab and the growth of Novadab and in turn the two of us are helping each other grow these two new businesses. Joe: I think this is a 1st where we sold a business and then the buyer of the business starts another business with the guy who sold it. I think that's fantastic. And it goes to the relationships and being likable and connecting. I guess it's not always going to happen for sure and sometimes people just want an exit. They want an exit; they want to be done. They go through that initial transition and training period which the standard folks is up to 40 hours over the 1st 90 days. And if you don't have a seller note like Rocky did there's something called a hold back; a certain percentage of the funds just reside in Escrow and then are released in 90 days after that transition and training period is over. Alright well, let's … you've grown it 60% is that what you said? Rocky: In the last quarter of the year, we grew at 60%; the 1st quarter of this year, year over year growth was 40%. Joe: Wow, unbelievable. Alright so … but those 300 and something SKUs that you added; the big win big loss, what was the loss and what was the win? Rocky: The loss was definitely that I overwhelmed the team. Again it's just to add that many SKUs in such a short period of time during the peak quarter if you will; a mistake on my part and it definitely was too much too fast. And while they were very, very helpful in trying to get them launched we actually didn't get them up quickly as what we would want to. At the same time three of the SKUs that we didn't end up launching I know it's not a great percentage but three of the SKUs ended up selling over 20,000 pieces during the month of December. So it really provided some real good growth to us and the other SKUs some of them are working some of them are not but you have to try. And ultimately we're going to end up having most of those SKUs work and retire some of the older SKUs. You have to refresh your product up on a regular basis. I just try to do it all too quickly that's all. Joe: Oh that's alright, that's just part of the learning process at least you know it's a product line that doesn't go bad and you can sell through them, discount them, and maybe retire a few but that's pretty awesome. The big win; let's talk about what you're doing with the guy who sold you the business. You have started two new businesses together, what are they? Rocky: We started two new businesses; the 1st one is called Profinac and it stands for Professional Financial Accountants. Joe: Okay, I just have to say that sounds like prophylactic; how did you pick that name? Rocky: You and my wife said the same thing actually. Joe: She's a brilliant woman let me tell you that right now. Rocky: I will have to say that's part of why we're partners. I did not pick that name, Ashish picked that name for me or for us but the reason it stands for as I say Professional Financial Accountants and so we ran with that and see we're having an impression on everybody just as this [inaudible 00:30:44.2]. Joe: It's now unforgettable to the thousands that are listening. So Professional Financial Accountants, you are doing online bookkeeping for e-commerce businesses? Rocky: Yes, we do online bookkeeping for e-commerce businesses. We also do sales tax management. We end up doing payroll services for people as well, income statements. We'll do anything that they need to in order to offload what I feel that many e-commerce and really small businesses don't want to end up doing. They get so bogged down in being a business operator they don't end up being a business owner and so by taking off the real necessary, you have to keep score somehow and if this way somebody else can do it it ends up being or allowing you to end up focusing on the growth of the business. Joe: And there's … in my experience I mean growth is important if and when … you know what it's really when; when you decide to sell the business and it may be 15 years from now, it may be passing it on to a family member but they're still going to want financials when you decide the business you've got to have good clean financials. You can't co-mingle it with other brands and things that you want to keep. You're just going to get less value for the business and the time to start planning that exit even if it's in 10 years is now by getting good clean financials. So I think the prophylactic company, the Profinac is a great business. I'm sorry I won't do that again. What's the other … is it Profinac.com I assume? Rocky: Yes, it is. Joe: Alright. We'll put that in the show notes. Rocky: Okay. I appreciate that. The other thing is that's what you and Stephen taught me as far as the businesses were concerned in the sense of being able to provide a clean settled financial so that when you end up wanting to sell your business you have those financials that can end up getting that SBA approval ultimately. Joe: Let me ask the question because I think it's probably on some folks mind in the event they need these types of services and are doing it a little bit themselves right now are you using Xero or QuickBooks? Rocky: We will use both. Joe: Really? Rocky: Yes. We'll do either one for them. The team is well versed in both. We feel though that Xero will end up providing them with much more in depth information. Joe: I agree; I hear that a lot. The one thing that I wish the developers of Xero would do is allow a Profit & Loss statement to be run with a longer date range than just 12 months. When someone sends us the Xero reports we have to merge all of the years together in order to get to a running P&L which we always want to present with Quick Books; it's easy. And also the Xero folks they're not US based, I don't think because all of the dates are reversed of what we do here in the States which is the reverse of everybody else in the world I'm sure. Rocky: Yeah very, very true. They're an e-commerce based platform and they were founded on the e-commerce platform or in the cloud if you will, that's one reason why we feel that it provides us with a lot of [inaudible 00:34:10.3] that way. Joe: Good, what's the 2nd business that you're starting with your new business partner? Rocky: It's called Supportab and that is S-U-P-P-O-R-T-A-B.com. Joe: Only one T? Rocky: Only one T. We don't know how to spell either. Joe: It's giving you support to your abs; that's what this one does. Okay, what does Supportab do? Rocky: Supportab basically provides again a lot of the necessary support that an e-commerce business needs. This is going back to my big mistake of introducing those 300 SKUs. I needed to end up having a team; a website developer, for example, customer satisfaction people, graphics designer, marketing person. That's what we provide to people that are in the e-commerce world. And what we do that's a little bit different than some of the other businesses out there is that we have it all and we call it omni channel instead of multichannel. And omni channel basically is the integration of all of those different facets under one roof where your customer satisfaction team or your customer service team, your website developing team, your graphics team are all working together and that way they communicate with each other and interact with each other as far as what the overall goal of the company is. Whereas if you do it multi-channel you might go out and hire a bookkeeper, you might go out and hire customer service people but they never talk to each other so they don't get that common feel of the business going forward. We have it all under one roof and we also provide the supervision and management of that team. So we interview the companies and we ask them what their goals are and then we then convey that and manage the team towards those goals, talk with the owner of the company on a regular basis, and then we make sure that we're doing what it is they want to end up doing and more to achieve their goals. Joe: Based upon my experience in doing thousands of valuations I would say it's a very needed service because a lot of people that sell their business sell because they're just pulled in too many different directions, feel like they're going nowhere, and just need to cash out and get some emotional satisfaction because they're not getting any. Because they're working in the business instead of on the business, so Supportab; support one T ab.com sounds great. But Rocky you don't have any e-commerce experience, you're an experienced business person who's been managing a very difficult niche in the automotive world for 20 plus years now you've got Novadab so I guess that brings that life experience to starting these two new companies which are essentially service agencies which are definitely needed. What about your business partner before Novadab, what kind of e-commerce world experience does he have? Rocky: Well, he founded Novadab and certainly brought it to fruition and then before that he works for AT&T for a period of time in website development and was doing a lot of computer work himself. So that's one of my partner's— Joe: So he's mature, he's not in his early 20's that started his 1st business sold and is doing more business with you? He's got some real world experience behind him as well. Rocky: Very much so and the other partner that we have is actually his brother who is located in India and is heads of the operation over in India for us so that we have someone who has experienced … he worked for Pfizer for a period of time and did marketing for them and spends the time building our team in India and sourcing all of our employees that we end up hiring in that area. Joe: Wow. Is he and his brother originally from the States or born in India and relocated to the States? Rocky: They were born in India and Ashish came over here. He came over here to go to college, graduated from college and wanted to stay for a period of time and has now located in Austin is where he is. Joe: Oh, that's great. That's great to have a direct contact there that is an owner of the business, a relative of one of the owners of the business as well so it's fantastic. Well, Rocky, this is a great story; we're running out of time here. I appreciate you coming back on and actually allowing the team to record this one. Thank you very much for your humor in that regard and your time. I'm very impressed that you've taken this and grown it to the level you have in such a short period of time just for your daughter's sake. He's given you all of the credit in case you're listening; Rocky is just showing up every day. I'm kidding of course. The next time we have you on I want another update maybe in another 12 months we can get you back on, maybe have a daughter on as well what do you think? Rocky: That would be awesome. I couldn't do it without her that's for sure. She takes care of the day to day operations and allows me to end up working these other businesses and really without the team that I have I wouldn't be where I am so I really appreciate all of their hard work without a doubt. Joe: And we appreciate the type of person you are, the type of buyer you are, and the fact that everything has gone so smoothly. I'm so glad to hear for your success. Thank you for coming on the podcast and I look forward to doing an update with you sometime in the future. Rocky: Thanks very much for having me, Joe. It's been a real, real lot of fun. Joe: Take care, you too. Links and Resources: Novadab Profinac SupporTab Centurica StephenSpears BruceMarks Austin Meetup

For our first entrepreneur acquisition update episode, we are speaking to Nathan Singh, a buyer who made a purchase through Quiet Light eighteen months back. Nathan is a great example of how a buyer can get a good deal and beat out other buyers just by being personable and investing in the seller. It turns out that it's not always the person who has an all-cash offer on the table that wins the deal. Having a Nathan was more appealing and likable to the seller, won out on a deal, and today we are hearing all about how the acquisition transition has gone for him. Episode Highlights: Nathan tells us all about the two WordPress plugins he bought and what each does. Any regrets regarding the multiple and the use of an SBA loan for the transaction. The company growth rate and any challenges Nathan's faced. Where the growth has come in and what he attributes that growth to. Staff retention and how the transition is going within the staff since the original transition period. Nathan's tips for an easier transition. The importance of involving the customer in order to create a relevant product road map. The biggest challenges and successes of the businesses. Things Nathan has implemented to ignite that growth. Way's Nathan keeps his relaxed disposition. Growth Goals for the next 12-24 months. Nathan's 3P's advice to entrepreneurs looking to strike out and acquire a business. Transcription: Mark: Joe, about a year ago you had Nathan Singh on the podcast. Nathan was a really good example of how a buyer can get a good deal, beat out buyers that maybe have a little bit of a stronger position with their offer or if they're a cash buyer just by being kind and generous and investing more importantly in the person that's selling the business. And I guess it's time for an update from him. Joe: Yeah, Nathan did a great job. His seller was Syed Balkhi. He owns Opt-In Monster. That's not the one we sold but we sold two of his WordPress plugin sites which are essentially SaaS businesses and Nathan beat out a full priced all cash buyer with a full price SBA deal where Syed agreed to carry a 10% seller note which was pretty substantial based upon the size of the business. And it's a story I've told often in the different events that we go to and here on the podcast so sorry for folks hearing it. I'm repeating it but yeah the first podcast we did with Nathan was all about that and the transition and training and things of that nature and we're doing an update. I think this is probably our first entrepreneur acquisition update. And he talks about what it's been like for the last 12 months; some of the wins, some of the losses, some of the challenges, the team and things of that nature. It's a great episode to see what people have done. I think really probably more like 18 months later. I think we sold it to Nathan in the fall of '17. Mark: Yeah, I get asked all the time like do you guys follow up with people that have bought these sites and what does it look like a little bit after. And frankly, we don't do enough update follow up with people who have bought so this is good. I'm glad that we are doing this with somebody we're doing on the podcast live so that people can actually hear how the acquisition has gone a year and a half later. Let's get right into it I want to hear from Nathan. Joe: One more thing I want to just shout out a reminder this new intro that we have, we've got some movie quotes in there. If you can figure out what the movie quote is for the intro go back and rewind, listen to it, put it down in the show notes and we'll give a call out to you in the next episode. Joe: Hey, folks Joe Valley here from Quiet Light Brokerage and today we have our first ever Quiet Light update or acquisition update. We've got Nathan Singh on the podcast; Nathan, welcome. Nathan: Hey Joe. Joe: Good to be back, good to have you back man. I tell your story often. I share the story that it's not always the person who has an all cash full price offer that wins the deal and that being likable is one of those intangible very, very important factors. And for those that didn't listen to the podcast that we did with Nathan, he … I want to say won a deal where someone was bringing all cash to the table at a full price deal and Nathan came to the table just being more likable. He happened to go to the same school as the seller Syed Balkhi. I know it's the Gators, is that … wait a second, hold on, I'm going to put on the hat because I have it. I have it. There it is. Nathan: There you go. That's the right one. Joe: And I didn't plan this I just happened to have the hat up in the cabin. It's been there since fall of 2017. So it's … I'm going to get it wrong and Syed he should … he sighed so loudly when I got it wrong. Is it Florida State? Nathan: No, I would have sighed again, real loudly. Yes, University of Florida. Joe: I'm sorry. Nathan: [inaudible 00:04:41.8] Joe: There it is. There was obviously a quick connection between you and Syed on the conference calls because you both went to Florida State. Nathan: University of Florida, not Florida State. Joe: Okay. Folks, obviously I don't pay attention to schools in Florida. I'm from the Northeast originally and we don't follow our college teams at all. Now for those watching the video, my hair looks great. Okay, I just took the hat off. You connected with him on the school but you also connected with him in terms of the way that you wanted to keep the staff in place and take care of them and that it becomes a family or an extended family. And that just really resonated with him and he didn't want to call the end with you whereas the all cash buyer it was all about the fact that he was all cash he could do a quick close and these types of things but it was a little rough around the edges. Syed believed in you, trusted in you, and actually took an SBA deal where he had to not be all cash, he got 90% and so he carried a pretty substantial seller note that won't be paid in full for … I don't remember the exact terms of the deal but probably a balloon payment in year five along those lines. Does that sound about right? Nathan: Yeah. Joe: Alright. So you bought Soliloquy and Envira Gallery. Can you tell the audience a little bit about both of those businesses and what they're all about and what they do? Nathan: Yeah sure. So both of those businesses are pretty similar in the sense that they are WordPress plugins. Envira Gallery is basically a gallery plugin. That's a really simplified way to put it but it's really a photo management system. And if you Google best WordPress gallery plugins you're probably going to see that in just about every result you see. Soliloquy same deal. It's a slider plugin. Essentially if you've ever seen sliding pictures and things like that in PDFs and videos that's what Soliloquy does. But essentially it just makes developers and designers lives a lot easier when they're developing this sort of thing. That's not something they really want to get into so it just streamlines the whole process. The whole gallery management system is there. And it can display multiple galleries in pictures and sliders in a very professional way. And especially for photographers, that's a big deal. And that's what Envira Gallery does. Joe: Did you have a lot of experience, direct experience in WordPress and plugins and things of that nature before buying the business? Nathan: Not at all. At least some people actually have worked in WordPress to some extent whether they've blogged or … I've had very minimal. I've looked at the backend years ago at one point I'm like no way. So WordPress has come a long way since then. A lot of people who have … who used WordPress and have been keeping abreast of that news, Gutenberg came out, what it did is essentially went straight for the head of Wix and Shopify and some of the really easy to use platforms for building websites. So Gutenberg is that which is a WordPress site builder. It's built in. It's made by WordPress. So that's the main thing for all users, now you can get in the backend. It makes it a lot easier. But no previous to that I was pretty new to it. I didn't really understand the dynamics and the market but the only thing that I had that was slightly close to that is I developed an app before in iOS. And so it was again it was being a part of this community and having some community standards when you have plugins that are uploaded to the depository. Joe: Okay. So you were an entrepreneur. You did sell a business. I sold it for you prior to buying this one but no WordPress experience. You bought it … this business with an SBA loan and it paid a what I would say is a fair multiple. A lot of folks might say I think it's strong. I won't say it. You're welcome to say if you want to. But do you have any regrets in terms of the multiple and the use of an SBA loan in the purchase of this business? Nathan: No I don't think so. Regarding the multiple, we did pay a strong multiple. I knew that going in but I also knew going in … I've gone through hundreds of business over the past few years, I talked to owner things like that. In order to get those businesses kind of like with Envira Gallery and Soliloquy where the churn was pretty good … it's essentially a SaaS business. It's been well maintained. It comes from a good pedigree by way of Syed Balkhi. So all those things played a huge part in me wanting to go ahead and stretch what I was looking to do in that multiple. But on the same end when you're doing an SBA it made that decision a whole lot easier as well. So given the SBA process, I mean I've talked about that in the last podcast that we did as well it was … it's come a long way. And so for me having gone through the trenches and years and years of trying to get SBA loans for businesses with no assets and getting to that point and seeing it streamlined with a guy like Stephen Speer and kind of what Bank United did, it's just … I mean it was like a dream to go through that really quickly. But yeah I mean we're here year later and I don't regret it. The only thing I will say that I kind of … was a thing I didn't sort of anticipate is how quickly the interest rate did change. And it does change year after year but it wasn't so drastic that it affected the business in any way. But it did increase just a bit there so. Joe: Your loan had a variable interest rate. Nathan: I think it was more as a result to the Fed increasing. Joe: Okay. Nathan: It was something that I was aware of but it was just political things happened and it increased a little bit there. Joe: Okay. Alright so why don't you tell us how things are going? Are you seeing the business … what, we closed in the fall of 2017 so it's been a little over 18 months, have you seen the business grow? Are you challenged by anything or is it growing year over year at this point? Nathan: Yes, so it is growing. It's a pretty healthy double digit growth. Joe: Double digit growth, okay. Nathan: So no complaints there. Challenges are really again coming and yeah I've been pretty much like industry agnostic every business I got into. Like I usually know nothing about it and I prefer it that way in some cases. And so coming in and learning it I've been attending the Word Camp. I went to Word Camp in US. I went to Word Camp Miami and really connecting with the people that are shaping where WordPress is going. And just some quick stats for people that like numbers, WordPress was around like 25% or so in all the websites in the world pretty much and now they're around 33 or 35% and that's continuing to grow. And just about every major web site that you probably visit is on WordPress. So the fact that that market share is growing there's … that's helped a lot with the organic growth as well. Joe: Is that US growth or a combination of US and international? Nathan: I think it's a combination of both it's like it's used in the world but definitely United States I think that WordPress has a pretty solid share there. Joe: You know it's interesting that's not something that we zeroed in on in the client interview with Syed in terms of WordPress growth. Is it something you thought about prior to and during due diligence prior to the LOI and due diligence or is it just worked out that way that you bought essentially a SaaS business on a platform that is growing? Nathan: Yeah, I think it was a little bit of both. So I understood that WordPress was … at that time the numbers haven't been released. The numbers are officially sold on Word Camp US or just before. So the actual numbers I didn't really know at what rate it was growing but I did know that just the nature of the open source WordPress community, the fact that they're building a bond and we talked about … a little about Gutenberg during the acquisition as well but just having seeing the route that they were going in relation to all these other paid sites, and what the paid platforms did to me it made sense that WordPress is going to continue to grow. It's got a foundation to expand on and so it did play a little … not a significant amount in terms of the actual business acquisition. Joe: Excellent. One of the big reasons why you and Syed are working together now was that you were going to bring the staff over, keep everybody involved and you worked remotely from a home office whereas everybody else I think does as well. How has that transition worked out in terms of the staff and you and are you still working together? Nathan: Yeah, great. Yeah, it's been great so we talked a little bit about this again in that previous interview but there was kind of a bumpy ride with the staff. Again full time they've been with the previous company for several years and they were part of a larger outfit. So there were some worry there that it's just going to be us, essentially four folks transferring over to a completely new owner; my smaller company, how is that all going to work out? I think that just … it was a trust thing and I think after a couple of weeks that they saw that I was in the trenches with them and I was really working to make their lives easier, making sure they're taken care of. You know we went on a retreat, we stayed in Austin, we stayed in a big house; an Airbnb together, really got a chance to bond and we're doing it again this year as well. I think those things all sort of helped build that trust. I mean from where we were to point one just like in any transition when you're taking people's livelihoods and basically giving it to this owner that's completely new and they've never met there's always that kind of anxiety and stuff. But we've come a long way in that time and I'm happy to say that pretty much the entire team is still in place. One person did move on to another opportunity but outside of that, the core folks are still there. Joe: Oh, that's great to hear. Syed is probably happy with that as well. As far as the training and transition goes I know that normally it's up to 40 hours over the first 90 days after closing is the standard in the asset purchase agreement, have you needed to reach out to Syed and other folks that are in the upper level management side or were of this business beyond that transition and training period so that you just reached out if you had a quick question that didn't come up in the first 90 days? Nathan: Yeah, I think it was that. It was the first maybe really the first month or two is the bulk of the questions and stuff. Syed was really good about it. We went through training together. Thomas the co-founder was there as well or actually the founder. And so we recorded those conversations, went through each one of the processes and so I had all that. That helped tremendously so if you are selling try doing that. Go through recorded conversations and go through the process of what you do day to day and that really helps for them to not have to ask any questions. They can just look at the video again. Joe: Oh, it's a great idea and we use a Chrome extension called Loom, L-O-O-M on a daily basis when a broker has a question for me or I have a question for someone else they often just record their screen and send that. What software do you use? Nathan: We use Zoom. Joe: Better. Okay. We're on Zoom now and we're recording. Fortunately, as you all will hear in an episode or two I just did a podcast this week. I jokingly said it's the best one I've ever done but I forgot to hit record. So we'll be doing it again next week but I'm sure the guest will bring that up in the podcast for sure. Alright, let's talk about the biggest challenges that you have had since buying the business back in the fall of 2017. Nathan: Yeah, I would say the biggest challenges for me just like with any other business is kind of getting on that horse and riding it. It was just that the day to day stuff, making sure there was no loose ends that I was missing. I think aside from that it was really that there was not a strong product roadmap going forward. So everything would have gone well until up until that point and I think the team was kind of like well we're just fixing stuff how long do we want to just continue just fixing stuff day to day? And so that was just like kind of shaving a product roadmap, again I'm coming in super fresh so there's not a whole lot I can bring to it in terms of this is exactly what we need to do to take us to the next level, right? But the great thing is since I run other businesses and you kind of get a process within yourself that you can apply to these other businesses and for me, it was like let's ask the customers. And that's exactly what we did. We went straight to the customers, put out a survey; short, less than 60 seconds to complete. What are the features you like most, what do you want to see, how are we doing, stuff like that and they let us have it in a good way mostly. Joe: In a good way, okay. Nathan: And so the great thing is that they were happy with this feature set and they provided some stuff that would make them much more happier. And so that is what we're working towards right now. Joe: So they gave you that product roadmap and then your team is working on that. You're not working on it, you're just visionary and they're actually doing the actual work itself, right? Nathan: Yeah, you're right the developers … you know what I did is basically help create prioritize the roadmap. And so the things we have to do first which is we got to rebuild some of our functions and things like that. That's the most important part; to keep … to build on that foundation. And then outside of that, it's going to be basically hitting those priority items and then doing those in truncheons as we move along based on that. Joe: What would you say are your biggest successes or triumphs? Things that maybe they were a challenge but you've overcome them and see that it's maybe something that kept you up at night but it's changed and it's a big part of your business now. Anything like that? Nathan: I think for me it's been a little bit of the marketing, kind of the way to take the market. WordPress is a little bit different in the sense that we have three versions that are on this .org repository. They've got somewhere in the range of 150 to 180,000 active users or active installs, probably more than that with Soliloquy. And so there's not a lot of data we can gather. And up until recently there wasn't a lot of … there's not a funnel that you can put them through to bring them over to the paid versions because again it's actively monitored and it's a lot different than if you have a trial version and you're moving them on to a paid version of the funnel. So I think the challenge was trading out ways to get around that and still playing by the rules. So again opt-ins we've recently put in opt-ins in the free version that wasn't something that we could do previously but things in WordPress community has changed. So that's going to be a huge boom for us. Aside from that kind of marketing directly to the WordPress base, a lot of designer and phyto developers that are used to a certain thing. So one thing they weren't used to was re-occurring payments, annual subscriptions and things like that but honestly, it's become something of paramount importance to anyone that's running plugins that they have to be running a SaaS type program in order to survive or else you won't be able to make it. Joe: Have you changed the payment system with these two products? Have you changed the way that the customers are paying for it? Nathan: The payments have stayed the same. I think a lot of it was showing them the value of continuing that. Joe: Okay. Nathan: Because again WordPress is a little bit tricky because once you pay for it once you basically own it for life. Joe: I got you. Nathan: So here that is really … is bringing in those value added updates and the value added support; the source support is probably like number two on our most celebrated feature of Envira Gallery and Soliloquy. We get it all and we saw it in the survey as well. So making sure that we're doing everything we can for that customer experience just from the support standpoint and not only at the stuff that we're doing as far as updates and things like that. Joe: So you really brought your marketing experience and expertise into the business and that's how you're triumphing in a sense. Is that what it is attributable to the growth that you've seen, the double digit growth or is it that it was going that way and you're just on for the ride and making sure you don't break it. Nathan: Yeah, I think there's a balance between those. So initially … mostly when I go into these types of acquisitions I'm looking for something that's like the first year I'm learning. It's not like I can insert myself and change things at day one like say if you got a content site when essentially you're dealing with software. So it's always very different, the base is different, and then the software base is different in terms of developers and things like that. So for me, it's applying the past knowledge of just making a great intuitive software, changing up the interface to what I believe is just a more … a better user experience, and outside of that applying some of those basic marketing things that just need to be done. In this case a lot of that, the basics have been done, but it's that out of the box stuffs that really needed to get taken care of. Joe: I love that first year just learning approach. I see lots of these businesses that are listed and sold. There's a certain amount of year over year growth and the goal is to at least sustain that. And I had a call this week with someone that blew up the SKU count dramatically and it was his kind of biggest failure but at the same time it turned out to be a little bit of a triumph as well because there are some SKUs that are now generating an awful lot of revenue. But there's also a great deal of loss there as well. So I like that learn in the first year process. And what kind of things are you working on now that were never done before in the business? Nathan: Yeah, so there's a couple of things that have also attributed to the growth outside of just again being a SaaS business with not a terrible churn. And the churn for WordPress businesses I think is probably a little bit above average of what other people see in WordPress. Again you buy one so you can potentially keep it. So outside of that, it's been growing. Our affiliate revenue, that's been increasing pretty tremendously. But we had a lot of articles that had been written that were getting pretty decent on the traffic, didn't have any ads on there, didn't have really any affiliate links things like that. So that's one of the things putting in those affiliate links, building more articles around those really high performing traffic. I think at the time this wasn't taken to do that and sort of nurturing that so that's … I've seen— Joe: Are these affiliate links for other plugins or SaaS products or physical products or a combination of all three? Nathan: So the shoe in for us really became the funnel editing tools. We did a lot of … there's been a lot of [inaudible 00:22:24.1] done, tools such as Photoshop and things like that. And so lot of traffic to that kind of stuff. And it just made sense to start saying hey if you don't have Photoshop and you want to do this stuff that you see in this tutorial here's where you can go. And that's pretty much it. And then building off of that and saying what are those Photoshop competitors are out there well there's Skylum Luminar, there is Capture One, there's all these different types of photo editing tools that are kind of riding on the coattails and maybe on the heels of Photoshop. So writing tutorials for those and the same type of strategy that was used and say hey if you don't have it you can go get it over here. Joe: That seems like such a logical thing to do, slow down and read the article, what are people looking for, what can we … Do you know what you're doing? You're helping the audience. They're reading an article about editing and you're then offering them the best photo editing tools right there within the article and you happen to be making money off of it as well. Nathan: Absolutely. And it wasn't the intention of just skyrocket the affiliate. It just made sense. I was like a rational person would mainly look at that and be like you know what this is already an article at Photoshop so you probably already have it. That's not true. There's a lot of people that wouldn't make something black and white and something color in the black and white picture but they didn't know they needed specifically Photoshop to do it. So they end up going … picking up the Creative Cloud plans 9.99 or 19.99 or whatever a month not three or $400 as it used to be. So it's just a lot more easier and accessible. Joe: How did you find the affiliate platform to use, those affiliate themselves? Nathan: Yeah. So share sell has already been in use in the previous ownerships so that's just one of those things. But in this case, it wasn't really even bad. It's just getting … just registering for the program and dropping them the wings and saying hey I should always focus on this some more too because it looks like to be growing. Joe: Pretty easy stuff then. Nathan: Yeah. Joe: Now you mentioned an e-mail list as well; you've historically had lots of free users, a huge e-mail list. Have you ever done anything with that and if not are you planning to do anything? Nathan: Yeah. So the free versions, there was really no list before because there's no way to collect emails from before. So we've started an opt-in for that which again I think is only … it's been a few couple of short weeks but already we're seeing the results come through. The only … the list that we do have is just essentially people that have paid the pro. But the great thing is we're able to cross sell with Soliloquy because generally if you need something like Envira Gallery you probably need something like Soliloquy. Joe: Yeah. Nathan: So that's continuing churn along as well. Joe: That's fantastic. Nathan you look so happy and relaxed and just chill, are you always this way or is it you're just in a good position in right now that you're running this business and see the trends and whatnot? I mean what's the deal? Let's get simple. Nathan: It's a little bit of both so I would be in positions where things were going absolutely terrible and so the short answer is I meditate every day so that I just accept things as they are so that makes life a lot easier for anyone listening. The second part is I think it is that I paid a higher multiple but I've got the security of if all else fails and I can't figure out what to do it will still follow some level of revenue that was expected. So outside of that, I was just building upon that success that's already sort of continuing as well. Joe: Excellent. What's in the works of … goal eyes what are you looking at in the next 12 to 24 months? Anything that if we come back for the second update in another 12 to 24 months what are you hoping to achieve? Nathan: At a minimum, I'd like to achieve that same double digit year over year growth. But I think again entrepreneurs try to go all triple digit all these different revenue channels. Again I opened up the affiliate revenue more and that's beginning to be more of a significant one. But a couple more like that I think would be interesting and just continued growth man. I mean the main thing is … this is one of the things we discussed earlier. It's just that focus on the customer; making sure they're happy, making sure that we're hitting all those needs and then the business kind of just takes off by itself if you're hitting all those things. Joe: That's it. A clear and simple plan; not too complicated. Focus on the customer makes a lot of sense. Any words of advice from one entrepreneur to others in the audience; people that maybe they're working in the corporate world and want to be the next Nathan Singh. Any advice that you can give in terms of running your own business and overcoming challenges and things of that nature? Nathan: Yeah, I would put it safely into patience, persistence, and presence; those three things. Joe: Alright. Patience I get that. Persistence I get it. Presence … meaning? Nathan: Meaning I think as entrepreneurs what we get into is too much looking around to see what someone else is doing or where they wanted to be in a couple of years and getting super stressed if they don't hit those goals. Remember that is just your perception of where you wanted to be, reality happens different things. And I think that if you're approaching everything in a present moment, I'm not trying to sound like a spiritual guru here. Joe: It's just natural though. I like it. Keep going. Nathan: If you're approaching everything in a present manner you're likely to focus on what you're doing at this point and not be so stressed about all those other stuff. Because essentially that's going to be what's going to mess you up; it is worrying about the future, worrying about how things are not going, things like that. Focus on what the problems are at the current moment and do those things at that minute, at that second and just kind of block everything out. I just feel like everybody is uniquely designed to run their own race. So don't look left and right just do your own thing and you'll get to where you're trying to get to. Joe: I like it. I like it very much. Nathan Singh thank you very much for coming back on and giving us the first ever Quiet Light update. I look forward to doing this again. I wish you the best of success. Nathan: Absolutely. Good talking to you Joe. Joe: You too. Links and Resources: Envira Gallery Solliloquy

These days Amazon businesses are getting more complex, and one way to add margin to your business is to extend to other countries. Today we are talking about the importance of understanding foreign exchange when buying and selling overseas. Since your business can potentially save a few thousand dollars, euros, or rupees, it is a good idea to use a broker for fx, where every little bit counts. Today we have an expert on to talk about the benefits of getting the best foreign exchange rates for your growing business and how having that broker can make a big difference. Jared Van Orden is a financial expert with GPS Capital Markets based in Utah. Since 2002, GPS has been the leading corporate foreign exchange brokerage firm dedicated to handling foreign exchange for companies, large and small. Jared's firm helps its clients exchange funds back into their working currency when selling overseas. Additionally, they exchange the currency of the country where clients are doing business and making foreign purchases. GPS Capital Markets deals in any type of transaction that has a foreign currency element to it and helps companies implement best practices. Episode Highlights: Jared explains the impact of WorldFirst Brokerage's US operations closing. The cost difference between using an exchange broker and being directly exchanged via Amazon. How getting the best exchange rates can affect an exit. Savings opportunities when purchasing goods from overseas, particularly China. Opportunities in other countries such as Thailand and India, a broker can offer. How the cost of a product going up or down can affect the exchange rate. Can sellers set up an EU bank account if they're a US company and what are the tax ramifications? The advantages of multi-currency accounts set up in the country where you do business. Understanding VAT and using an experienced accounting firm for taxation. Transcription Mark: Everybody for those of you that have been long time listeners of the Quiet Light podcast you've probably noticed that we have a brand new shiny introduction to the podcast. Let me know what you think. I like it quite a bit and there's a point in that introduction where there's a movie quote. We thought we would just throw this in there really for no reason other than it's somewhat fun. So here's what we're going to do, if you know what movie that quote was from send me an e-mail at mark@quietlightbrokerage or e-mail Joe at joe@quietlightbrokerage. For those of you that think that this podcast is actually Joe's podcast, you can do that. Let us know what movie it is from and we'll give you a shout out on one of the future podcast episodes. So what movie was that from? And Joe I got something just really funny. Just to tell you briefly I was just at Traffic and Conversion out in San Diego and we were talking about the different people at Quiet Light Brokerage and somebody actually told me that they thought that what you did at Quiet Light Brokerage was the podcast. So that's all that you did. Joe: That's all that I did? That's all I do? Mark: That's all you do. Joe: Oh. Well you know I wish it was all I did and my life would be a lot easier and I'd sleep better because the podcasting is the easiest part. All I do is talk and you and the content team, Chris, everybody else they do the rest. Podcast Motor; they make my life easy. So cool I wish … maybe that will come true someday. The other alternative versus mark@quietlight or joe@quietlight … you don't have to play favorites you can just send it to inquiries@quietlight and put movie quote in the subject line. And that way both Mark and I will see it and we can call you out and tell you we love you and that you picked the name of the movie. But listen we should talk about— Mark: Well on that be honest if you use Google like I do with every single one of these tell us that you used Google just to find it. Joe: Well when you were showing me this sample and you gave a movie quote I did, in fact, Google it. So don't cheat like I did folks. I knew what it was. I was pretty sure I knew what it was. And it was maybe people we can … I know I won't want to confuse them with the intro that is not pride to this. Anyway, we have a new guest; a person that specializes in foreign exchange. And it's something that you and I don't have a whole lot of expertise or experience in. His name is Jared Van Orden. He's from GPS FX. I met him at the Prosper Show last year and we talked a little bit about what they do. And finally because of some things that have happened with a company called World First we decided to get him on the podcast and talk about saving some money for the folks that do sell overseas and also buy from overseas manufacturers. Mark: Yeah. I'm sorry I thought you were going to continue talking. I didn't know you were done. I usually when you talk I just kind of tune you out so I— Joe: I know. I know. Mark: Well look the Amazon businesses are getting more complex and one of the best ways to expand and grow your business … any e-commerce business but Amazon specifically is to go into different countries. And when you do that there's going to be added complexity but also added areas for margin. And one of the very simple ways … and I talked to Jared before at Prosper Show is just that right? Looking at the foreign exchange this is an area where you can definitely add margin to your business. And it's an area that frankly I don't know much about so I'm glad that we have somebody who does know a lot about this to come on and talk about it. Joe: Yeah and let me just say real quick before we go to the podcast Mark is mentioning margin and it's important if you're going to save a thousand dollars a month on foreign exchange by doing it right. Or another thousand a month by using a foreign exchange company when you're placing orders overseas. That's $2,000 a month; $24,000 a year. That could result in an additional 75 … a hundred thousand dollars onto the value of your business so every little bit counts. Please listen to the entire podcast because Jared does a really good job of explaining the entire process. Mark: Awesome let's get to it. Joe: Hey folks Joe here at Quiet Light Brokerage and today I've got Jared Van Orden with me on the phone. Hey Jared, how are you? Jared: I'm doing great Joe. Joe: Awesome. Well as I said in our little chat before, today I've got a guest on talking about a subject that I know very little about which is great because I'm going to ask a lot of dumb questions. But before we go into those dumb questions that I'm going to ask and questions that I think will help the buyers of internet based businesses selling physical products and selling overseas; sellers of those save some money in the future why don't you give a little bit of background on yourself so folks understand who you are and what your company is and what you do. Jared: Sure. Thanks, Joe. So I'm with GPS Capital Markets. We're a foreign currency exchange brokerage that headquartered out at the United States; Utah actually to be exact. And we do all things foreign currency exchange. So we help companies specifically if they have revenues that are being collected in a currency outside of their functional currency, outside of the currency they use on a day to day basis. A US seller that's selling in to the UK; we help them to exchange those funds back into US dollars. Or a company that's paying for products in a foreign currency; we help to exchange funds from US dollars into those foreign currencies. And you know that it can be on a revenue cost basis. We help companies to acquire other entities overseas or to sell other entities; any type of transaction that has a foreign currency element to it. We really go out and try and help those companies number one to find the best practice solution to what they're doing. Sometimes that may mean not doing business with us but to help them find really what's going to fit best for their unique situation in dealing with foreign currencies. And then help them to implement that strategy if at all possible. It could be anything from just converting funds to locking the exchange rates for them. Joe: Excellent. I've dealt with this a few times over the years when we've got people that are not US citizens. They're … I just did one in Germany last year and the exchange rate was a major factor in terms of the timing of when we're going to close a transaction for him because it was being sold … purchased in US dollars. And I've had a lot of Canadian folks as well and folks from different parts of the world. But the big savings here and the way that people ultimately and this is what we look at can boost their bottom line discretionary earnings. There's many, many different ways to do it but the key here is a one or two or three percent savings in that foreign exchange. We're on this podcast because your team had sent me an e-mail. We met at the Prosper Show last year. I think you'll be there this year. We will as well. But you had sent me an email in regards to World First which is a very well-known foreign exchange firm that they're closing their doors. Can you touch on that a little bit for those folks that are currently using World First and may not know about this and what's … how it's going to impact their bottom line? Jared: Sure World First is actually a very good exchange brokerage. It has been around for quite a while and they had been helping a lot of Amazon sellers in the seller space to convert their funds from the foreign marketplaces back into US dollars. Basically, this is another option rather than using Amazon … to let Amazon convert those revenues for you into US dollars. And what happened is that World First is in an acquisition type situation where a foreign buyer out of China was looking to acquire the company. But because of some of the blocking that the US has done for Chinese financial companies purchasing US corporations that transaction didn't look like it was going to go through with World First US operations. And so World First sent out an email here back in January to all its clients saying that their US operations are going to be closing immediately. And that leaves a lot of our Amazon sellers in a situation where they're no longer going to be able to use that service with anywhere less than about a 30 day notice that after February 20th which is today you cannot use World First services if you are a US Canadian corporation. So those services out in US and Canada are no longer available to you. Now that doesn't mean that World First just quit doing business if you're a UK seller that's doing a business in the EU that services still can keep working for you. It's really only affecting the US companies that are based out in the United States and Canada. Joe: Okay so if we've got a US company or a Canadian company doing a $100,000 a year in revenue in the EU and they were using World First and they just default back to using Amazon what's the cost difference in terms of the exchange rate, what they're going to be left with? Jared: It's going to be pretty substantial. I mean if you're using Amazon, every two weeks Amazon sends your revenues back to you and if you have not entered an EU or UK based bank account those funds get exchanged by Amazon and sent to you every two weeks. And by default, the exchange rate that they're giving you is not what the market exchange rate is. It's actually the Amazon exchange rate they provide to you and it's over 3% off market. So if you're doing $100,000 in sales over there you can expect to only get $97,000 back or a little bit less than that because of the exchange rates that come that with your Amazon's platform. Joe: And if that same seller was using say you guys or World First what kind of rate would they have been getting? Jared: It would have been at least 3% better than what they were currently receiving at the time if they're through Amazon. Joe: I'm confused. Do the math for me. Jared: Amazon is around 3.75%. It's kind of where they come in at on their mark up on the exchange rate. Joe: Okay. Jared: Whereas if it's coming through GPS you're going to see significant or any other broker that is helping the Amazon sellers you're going to see significant reduction that oftentimes two to three or more percent back to you for those conversions. Joe: So you go from you're at 3.75% which is the default Amazon number … and these are just numbers that float and change I would assume. Are we looking at a full percentage point, two percentage points … are you talking 2% versus 3.75%? Jared: I would say for most of the brokers including GPS you're looking at two to three percent back in your pocket on the exchange. Joe: Yeah that seems really high just given that … I mean two to three percent. So you go from 100,000 if it's 3.75 with Amazon that's $3,750 you're going to save 3% by using GPS or if they were with World First is that only costing them 750? Jared: Yeah. Joe: Really? That's a huge difference. Jared: It's a huge difference. And that seems really high but in all reality that's actually pretty on par with a lot of other methods that are employed right now. If you're in e-teller and you have your own website. So you're selling on Amazon but you're also selling on your own website or in the UK your credit card processor is collecting those funds and oftentimes they're converting the foreign revenues into US dollars and placing them into your account. You're often losing 2.25% on that conversion and often a 1% to 1.25% cross border fee that's charged to you. And so that's 3.25 to 3.5% that you often lose on that conversion even if it's coming through a credit card processor that may be integrated to your Shopify account or some other online platform. So it seems really high but you'd be surprised that currency conversion buffer is in there for most conversions. Joe: Okay so a simple math again though if someone's doing $100,000 in foreign currency, a foreign land they're going to save 3% by using … if they were using World First or using a firm like yours. That's $3,000 for every 100,000. So if they're doing a million it's an awful lot larger. Just to break it down further for those that are listening if you've got a business and you're planning to exit in the next 12 to 24 months and you're paying these high numbers that Jared's talking about not only is it hurting your bottom line, taking money out of your pocket but you're also devaluating your business. If your business is worth a three time multiple of discretionary earnings, if you're losing 3,000 in currency exchange you're taking $9,000 off the value of your business. If you're doing a million overseas and that's going to be $90,000 off the value of your business in terms of these additional expenses. I had Mike Jackness on the podcast and hopefully, you guys listened to it a couple of weeks ago where we talked about his exit and one of his businesses. And he and Dave on eCom Crew always talk about that revenue is sanity… revenue is ego … I'm getting this wrong I know but profits are sanity. Too many folks focus just on the top line and don't focus on that bottom line profit; renegotiating cost of goods sold, looking at foreign exchange rates and making every dollar count will help you build a more valuable business. And it actually instills confidence in your buyers as well because they see that you're running a real business and you're doing what you can to make it as profitable as possible. All right so I ranted there for a moment Jared, sorry about that. You mentioned …at one point you said you can … if people are buying products in a foreign land are we talking about currency savings, cost savings if someone is buying product from China because a lot of folks have got e-commerce businesses are importing from China and spending tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands a year. Is there an exchange rate opportunity … savings opportunity there when they're buying from a foreign manufacturer or did I misunderstand that? Jared: There is and you know there are two parts to that answer so maybe I'll dig in a little bit. China is unique. A lot of these products are coming out of China and a lot of these companies in China they want US dollars when they're selling to you. That has a lot to do with in the past you know China has controlled the exchange rate between the US dollar and the Chinese or in the CNY CNH [inaudible 00:15:59.3] names for the currency; Yuan. When you are sending money over there in the past they have often wanted to receive US dollars. And in a time period where the Chinese currency is weakening, that's just an added bonus to these Chinese suppliers when they receive US dollars and getting it converted to their currency. They receive more for it. So in China most of the time you'll see that it's really hard to get any pricing outside of the US dollar and if you're being priced in US dollars because the supplier knows that they're not going to get your payment for 30, 60, 90 days they don't know what the exchange rate is going to be in 90 days. And so the Chinese suppliers will actually increase the price of your product to add a little bit of a buffer in there just because if the exchange rate fluctuates they don't want to be out one or two percent or more because the rates have changed between then and when they actually receive the funds. Now China aside looking at all other countries where companies may be purchasing your product, if you're having to pay a euro invoice to buy your product you probably hop on a banking platform to purchase those euro and you'll notice that the exchange rate that you receive on that transfer is not what you can see online on Google or any of these other sites that are recording grain rate. And that's because the rates that you're seeing online through Google and these other locations like Bloomberg or Reuters those rates are averaged rates of transactions of 5 million dollars or more. Some of these are 10 million dollars or more and those are referred to as market trades. And so if you're trading blocks of 5 million or 10 million at a time into these other currencies those are the exchange rates that banks are trading with each other at. Now we little guys who are not purchasing blocks of currency that big, when we go and buy foreign currency and go to send it to that supplier the reason we don't get that rate the banks are getting is because there is risk associated with us buying those funds. And so the banks mark up the exchange rate and it really have a lot to do with volume. Somebody who's buying a million dollars at a time, a million dollars' worth of euro at a time is going to get much more favorable exchange rate than somebody who's buying a thousand dollars' worth of euro at a time. Joe: What about some of the other countries that are more likely to be countries that folks would manufacture in like India, Thailand, maybe even Mexico? I've seen a few of those. Is there a … for folks that are buying in those countries, manufacturing in those countries, is there a currency exchange savings opportunity for them and if so how do they go about doing it? Jared: There is on those and again if you're just using a typical bank to do those transactions that may not be the best opportunity for you. Reaching out to a broker or one of these other companies, World First, GPS, and looking into what type of exchange rate that they give you on sending those wires, that could be really substantial savings. And there's a bank here locally near me that charges $50 per outgoing wire transfer and that is not the cost of sending a wire. That's part of the cost. So it might cost you anywhere from $20 to $50 to send an international wire to pay a vendor but then there's also that foreign currency element. Maybe your bank just doesn't have a great relationship when sending money to Korea and so the exchange rate they provide to you might be 3½ % off of market plus the $50 wire fee or $20 wire fee to send the funds to that country. And so the savings can be quite significant but it's going to be on a bank by bank, provider by provider basis and also looking at what currency that you're purchasing. Joe: So how does it work? If I'm manufacturing in India and I'm placing an order for $40,000 worth of goods, would I work with a GPS to lock in that exchange rate and you wire the funds over in whatever the Indian currency is? What is the Indian currency? I want to put you in the spot. Jared: Indian Rupees. Joe: Okay. Jared: So if you're sending … and you picked a good one, India has some very interesting tax laws over there and so if you're buying from an Indian provider and they're pricing you in US dollars you'll often see an INR price … Indian Rupee price printed on the invoice. And if you take that Indian Rupee amount and you just look on Google to see what the exchange rate is and you convert it back into US dollars well now you've got a US dollar cost on the invoice and then the US dollar cost that you back in to from the rupees. If you compare those two, you'll often see a very significant difference. I've seen up to 5% built in to the pricing for you to pay them in US dollars and that has to do with the way the funds get converted in the country and whether they receive a certain type of tax credit. But there are opportunities where if you pay them an INR … Indian Rupees you might get four to 5% right off the top in savings just simply because they're not dealing with the riskiness of achieving a currency anymore. Joe: So if I was manufacturing and buying $40,000 worth of goods from India for instance and I work through GPS I could save that 5% because you'd be able to wire over and do it in that. Is that $2,000? Am I doing the math right? Jared: There is very much that chance. And not just GPS I mean almost any institution in the United States that is doing it for you rather than sending over dollars. I mean in this case you're just sending dollars over there and it's being exchanged in country. Joe: Right. Jared: By simply paying the invoice in Indian rupees you might be saving 4% right across; four to 5%. Joe: Wow. So … and this can be done in multiple countries. China … maybe the opportunity is not as big in China because they want US dollars. Is that right? Jared: Exactly right. Joe: Okay. Jared: They typically want US dollars but some that's changing. China would like to become more of a global player and their currency is becoming one of the reserve currencies in the World Bank. You're going to see that change over the next few years. And there's real opportunity there but there's also a risk that comes in to it as well. If you decide to start purchasing Indian rupees to pay that supplier there is a chance that the Indian currency would strengthen 5% over the next year. Joe: Can you lock it in in terms of … because when people are manufacturing products they're putting 30% down and the other 70% when it's inspected and going on the boat. And that usually all happens within a 12 week period. Jared: I know. You're exactly right. And so the timing may not be really wide on those payments and so maybe the market isn't real significant but if you start paying a foreign supplier in their local currency and that may give you back some … a little bit of a discount on purchasing your product, but you also have to then take into consideration that you're now at risk that the Indian currency could weaken 10% in your favor over the next 12 months so going in 12 week increments but a year from now if the currency has weakened 10% then it's 10% in your favor but if the currency has strengthened over the next year, a year from now it's now 10% against you. And so you may have to make decisions on how to lock exchange rate ahead of time on those purchases you're going to make. Or you may have to go back to the negotiating table in order to get your pricing down a little bit with the supplier. Joe: And just to include it, the owners of these businesses their eyes are probably on the back of their heads right now because they've got so many things that they're supposed to be experts on but they don't have to be here. They can hire a firm like yours to do these things for them right? Jared: Absolutely. Joe: Okay. Jared: I would always look at what your costs are doing. Sometimes these companies and this … I'm glad you've mentioned that because there's a big misnomer here where a lot of companies think I'm buying my product in US dollars so it doesn't matter where the exchange rate go. That's not actually true because if I'm in China and I'm receiving your US dollars and it's a hundred thousand dollars today, if the Chinese Currency strengthens 10% at the end of next year I'm only getting $90,000 worth of [inaudible 00:24:11.1] when I receive it. And so I have production costs in country and if I'm no longer able to be profitable I have to raise your price. And so some of your clients here they may see that they've been buying the same SKU for the last 10 years and then we see that the price of that SKU has gone up and down over the years even though they're only buying it in US dollars. And that has a lot to do with the exchange rate. If the costs go up and down to the supplier they have to adjust the pricing even if it's in US dollars. Joe: Okay. You had mentioned something earlier about I think I heard you say EU bank account if you don't have one the funds are going back to your US account and charged in exchange rate. For those that are selling in the EU let's say via Amazon are you … or should they have an EU bank account and can you do that if it's a US institution or US corporation? Jared: Okay so that's a really good question. Let's look at that in a couple of parts. So one is if I'm selling into Europe, I'm selling into the EU, let's use Germany as example. If I'm selling my products into Germany on Amazon if I don't log on to my seller central account over there and punch in a Euro bank account Amazon automatically converts the funds to dollars every two weeks. So you have an option if you could go over and get an account in the EU set up. So you go to Germany and set up an account in country. You could have those funds go to that Euro account and pool into that account and if that account has online access you could manage it from here in the United States and send the funds back to you however often you want. Joe: Just to be clear you're saying … you mean a bank account not a Seller? Jared: A bank account, yes. Joe: Okay. Jared: So you can open an in-country bank account. Joe: Can you set up an in-country bank account in all of the EU countries if you're a US corporation or LLC? Jared: You're likely going to have to go over and register in country. Joe: Okay. Jared: So there is going to be some tax Nexus situations that are created by that. So another option you have is you can go to your bank here in the United States. You can go to a GPS and you can say I would like to get an account in-country over in EU. And so in the case of GPS, we would open an EU account for you in euros and this is referred to as a multi-currency account. And this multi-currency account is an account that is assigned to you. You're likely not going to have to register any country that you use this account. And then you can now take your euros and login to your Seller Central account and plug in that euro account into Seller Central and now those euros are going to pool into your own multi-currency account. One of the big advantages of that account is if you have cost in Europe so you have to pay VAT back. You can simply take those funds and pay those taxes out of your own account … this account, this multi-currency account. Or you can take all the funds and convert it back to US dollars. Joe: I got you. You know I … we had Avask Accounting on the podcast in 2018 talking about that. And I do know that they actually help people set up EU bank accounts as well as part of it. And folks can find them at AvaskAccounting.co.uk. And then use a company like Jared's for the foreign exchange as well. Just quick math if based upon what we've talked about is somebody doing $100,000 in revenue they're going to save a couple of percentage points; $2,000 by making sure they're using good foreign exchange. And then if they're not; if they're manufacturing overseas, if they can save another 5% on that $40,000 inventory purchase that's in India for instance that's another $4,000. Folks that $6,000in savings, money in your pocket and if you're selling your business for a three time multiple that's $18,000 added on to the value of your business. And you can adjust that number in any way that you want. But these are the things that matter when you are growing your business with an eventual exit in mind or if you're buying an interest … buying a business and you want to increase the discretionary earnings and build equity right away. These are some of the things you can look at. Jared, I appreciate your time here. It's a complicated subject. How do they find you? What is your web address and how can they reach out to you either via e-mail or finding your website? Jared: Okay so our web address is www.gpsfx.com and to get in touch with us it's just usually a phone call at 801-984-1080 and then I can send you my e-mail but I'll state it here as well. My email is jvanorden@gpsfx.com. Joe: Awesome. That's great. Jared: And if people just have questions I'm happy even just to answer questions that point you in the right direction. If someone has listened to this and they're like I think I have this but I just need some help on it I'm happy just to point you in the right direction as well. Joe: I appreciate that. That's why we have you on because you're here to help first and build value so I appreciate that. Folks I would encourage you to reach out to Jared and his team over there and see if you're overspending and if you've got some savings there. Jared, I appreciate your time. I look forward to seeing you at the Prosper Show. Jared: Thanks, Joe. You too. Links and Resources: GPS Capital Markets Contact Jared

Gary Myers: Hi. My name is Gary Myers. Joe Fontenot: And I'm Joe Fontenot. Gary: We're the hosts of the Answering the Call podcast. Joe: And this is the podcast where we talk to people who are answering God's call. Today our guest is Emir Caner. He's the president of Truett McConnell University. Gary: He talks about leadership, it's challenges, and where he finds inspiration. Joe: And so, here's Emir. Joe: Dr. Emir Caner, you are the president of Truett McConnell University and you've been there for 10 years now, since 2008. So it's really great to have you here. I had a question for you first. We're going to talk about some leadership things, but every single email and then on your website you say three words. Truth is immortal. Emir Caner: Yeah. Joe: What does that mean? Emir: I did my dissertation on Balthasar Hubmaier, who is my hero of the faith, not only for his strengths, but for his weaknesses as well. Ended up living his life the last 14 months before he was arrested and ultimately martyred for the faith, he had baptized six to twelve thousand people, and that's if you can imagine a church that baptizes 150 a more a week, and published 17 books at the same time. Ultimately was arrested and burned at the stake outside the gates there in Vienna, Austria. So his slogan I have plagiarized now some 500 years later. 'Truth is unkillable' is the literal translation from the German. Truth is immortal is the popular translation. It just reminds people that while truth can decay and truth can diminish, it can never die, because like the resurrection it will raise itself like our Lord. And as long as our Lord is raised from the dead, truth itself cannot die itself. Joe: That's a pretty comforting concept, I think, especially since we live in a truth is relative world. You know, truth is not only here, but it's immortal. So, I have a question for you. I was looking at your career and so forth, and something strikes me as kind of interesting, and it's specifically about leadership. So there's a lot of talk about leadership in the world, and all this kind of stuff, but I think a lot of time leadership gets generalized. So for instance, one of the things I found, came across, was this idea that there's a difference between being like number two, and being number one. In an institution, an organization, I'm talking kind of about responsibility and direction, not like in an ego sense. And you take the difference between number two and number three, and it might not be much. What is the difference between number one and number two? This is something ... You know, you're currently the president of Truett McConnell, that institution, but you've not always been at the top, in that case, and so you've had kind of both sides. Can you talk a little bit about some of the things that you've learned in the process of that? Emir: Yeah. Some of it's experiential. I had never intended to be in the spot I am. Never thought I was qualified. Many days still don't think I'm qualified to do so. But before this position at Truett McConnell University, I was at Southwestern Seminary, and helped found the College at Southwestern that's now Scarborough College. I think the number two, the greatest difference, and I gladly fit into that, is I wanted to give unfettered support to my president. And as long as everything, of course, was ethical and theological, even if we disagreed, and ultimately you do. In any position of authority you will disagree with those are in authority, my goal was to prop him up to encourage him and to do what God had put him in that place to do in every way possible, whether it was recruiting students or fundraising, whether it was in the classroom or sitting with students in my office like I do. In some ways there aren't many differences. I think the largest difference is the enormity of the task becomes clear from the chair because you start to realize, "Oh gosh. I've got 300 families who rely on me in order to make a living. I have 2900 students who have a desire in their life, and a call in their life, and in some minute way I am responsible for them as well." And so there is a gravity to the situation that you wake up and you realize ... If you don't realize at that point that you are inadequate, you are probably arrogant, because there is no possible way. The best piece of leadership advice I've ever received came from Dr. Charles Stanley. When he was asked how did you get where you are today? Right? He started first at Atlanta in 1971. Now he's got a potential audience of over a billion. His answer is, "I don't know. All I did was one step at a time." And I think that's a crucial issue of leadership is that those that I wish to emulate most never intended to be there. They only intended to follow the Lord, whatever the path was. And that was truly helpful, because when you get to the chair you start to recognize there's no way of doing this without the grace of God. And not in part, but really in whole, because any decision you make has an impact on every student. And the decisions you make will have an impact not just for tomorrow, but for decades to come. So that's also the joy of the situation, because then you get to see graduates. You get to see them do things far greater than anyone could have dreamed, and that's the joy of it. Joe: Was there a time when you looked at leadership, the way you described it here is almost as follow-ship. You are here to serve. You're here to follow. The one foot in front of the other on the path that God has laid out for you. Was there a time when you looked at leadership more in a, I would almost say stereotypical way? Like a lot of people look at the leader and say, "The leader has a plan, has a path. They're going. We're going to follow them. When I get to that position, I'm going to be the one making the direction." But kind of what you've described is something a little different in the sense that you were here to follow God, right? And so has that become like a change in your life? Did you always look at it like this? Emir: I just really never saw this coming. When I got called to ministry my dream was just to preach the Word. And I think that's enough. It's not just, it is the primary goal even to this day that I do. And then all of a sudden I was asked to become professor of church history and Anabaptist studies at Southeastern Seminary. And that's all I dreamed about in life was just to do that, and I got to do that for years. And then all of a sudden I got a call from Southwestern to say, "Would you think about taking this on?" I'd never seen that coming. So I gladly did that, and we purchased a home. My wife and I had a great church out at Forth Worth. Our family was growing, and young, and I thought, you know, this is it. This is where everything will happen. And then an email came in from a trustee at Truett, and thought, "No. I don't want this." And trustees can tell you even 10 years later, I waited until the very last minute to say yes, because there was no possible way in my mind that I could be what Truett needed. But when you get the unction of the Lord, you have to say yes. And so here you are 10 years later. And there is. There's a great joy. It's not hard living in the mountains of North Georgia. Joe: Right. Emir: Right? It's a beautiful place. It's a contagious place. So many of our students not only come, but they stay because of the mountains of North Georgia. But no. I think there is, Luther Rice Seminary has a professor who wrote a book on followership, and I guess that's part of it. I would only add most books on leadership are written of the perspective that those who have succeeded. I read a lot from those I can learn from who those who in the worlds eyes have failed, but they haven't. There was a missionary out in South America in the 19th century, I think about 1857. They found his diary. He went out to a remote island trying to win the tribe to Christ, and never did. Never won one to Christ that we know of to this day. But his diary says it all. In his diary, his last diary before he starved to death was, "I am overwhelmed by the goodness of God." And I think you can learn just as much from that faithful servant as you can from the successful story. In fact there's a great danger of only looking to those who ... They love the stories of Abraham Lincoln or Winston Churchill. They failed, they failed, they failed, but then they succeeded. But I wonder, would you really read Lincoln, or Churchill, or anyone religious life if they had just failed? And as a church historian, that's what I do. I love to study those who are the forgotten, are the grassroots. Joe: What are some of the main things you've learned from those forgotten? Emir: You know, as a church historian, history ... Less than 1% of history is ever written down. And history that we read, in fact, if you study church history in terms, even as you teach in Baptist life, Evangelical life, Protestant life, we still only teach it from the perspective of the successful. So you teach the church fathers nearly as cleanly as Roman Catholicism teaches of the church fathers of Jerome, Augusta, et cetera. But I look for the grassroots. And it's one of the reasons why I'm a free churchman. It's a reason why I studied Anabaptistica. Why they are our forefathers spiritually, and I would say historically as well is these are the forgotten. They were meant to be forgotten. They were martyred to be forgotten. But those, I think, are the true heroes. And you really can translate that into modern day church life. Where if you think about it, you walk into church, all the accolades goes to the person with the limelight. But the forgotten heroes of the backrooms, of the 3-year-old Sunday school, of the deacon who goes to the hospital. That's part and parcel of how we should look at church history. Joe: I think we're at a little bit of a disadvantage in the one sense of everybody puts the emphasis on the winners, right? Whether it's the person whose standing up at the front, you know, on and on and on. How does a person spot the forgotten who are not "losers" right? But they're the people that are being faithful and so forth, but the world has not validated them? Emir: Many times you can't, right? Because the eradication of history stops you from doing that unless you move into oral history, or you find some forgotten documents. But that's exactly what we should do. When you got The Evangelical Theological Society, there are many good papers being done, but sometimes you sort of get tired of the regurgitation of Martin Luther for the 17th hundredth time of the ... It just becomes insane that they think they found something. I love when you'd stated grassroots you find things you never thought. So for example, with Anabaptistica, one of my professors came over to the States, studied at Georgia Tech, got his bachelors/masters in PhD in aerospace engineering. And he was an agnostic, didn't believe, and then he got saved. And all of a sudden he did a master of divinity and doctorate, and did it in Anabaptistica. He's Italian, French Italian, and so he decided to go study the archives. And that's where I tell people they are. They're in the back rooms of families. They're in the archives of libraries. Every book written about Italian Anabaptists, and they were heretics. All of them. And they basically repeated secondary history over and over again. Well this French Italian then went into the archives and studied, and it was all a myth perpetuated by those who wanted to eradicate their history, call them heretics, because in the medieval times you had to prove heretics in order to put them to death. But you ultimately found is while there were some heretics among them, the vast majority of Italian Anabaptists were orthodox. They were Trinitarian, they were salvation by grace alone and so forth, and they were martyred for the faith. And so when I do my Anabaptist tour, like I'll do next summer, we go to Venice. No one else has done this in an Anabaptist, or the Mennonites don't do this. So we go to Venice. We literally go to the place where they would take the Anabaptists at night quietly, whole families, put them out into the water, drop them underneath the boats, let them drown, come back to dock, nobody knew them again. And one of the honors of being a theologian or historian is being allowed to tell the story of those who are forgotten, just like those guys. Joe: That's amazing. Do you think those forgotten people still exist today? Emir: Yeah. You know- Joe: I mean are alive today? Emir: They're not only alive, but they need to come more to the forefront of, for example, how we do issues of church planting, or ecclesiology. If you go to conferences, there are a lot of conferences on church planting. But church planting in urban Atlanta is radically different than doing church planting in the mountains of North Georgia. And there are different heroes for different situations. And the forgotten man who is sitting out in First Baptist, Lizard Lick, North Carolina, which is an actual city- Joe: It is. Emir: ... is doing as faithful work as the urbanite or the suburbanite that's in the larger church. And I think we've forgotten that the backbone of Southern Baptist life is not merely made up of the megas, but is made up of the smaller churches, and the yeoman's work that's out there, that a man that's in a community of 500 baptizing 30 is just as extraordinary as man that's in a community of 100,000 and baptizing 300. And those are the forgotten. Those are the ones I love to preach for, because you walk in to this remote location. I remember a few years ago I drove up, they didn't even have a parking lot. And they had this auditorium that sat about 300, and you pulled up to grass, and it was packed, and I went in. And doing that, being in Georgia, preaching under watermelon sheds, and old revivalist. I preached at a revivalistic facility that had had a revival service every year except for once since 1812. Joe: Wow. Emir: Those are the forgotten too many times, but I think we have to realize or maybe even re-realize what it means to have that differentiation between the segments of Southern Baptist life as we unify under theology. Joe: How we tell the difference between one of these forgotten heroes, the person whose doing the good work, and perhaps the world is not recognizing them, versus someone who is not, and they're basically sowing the seeds of, or getting what they're sowing. In other words, the difference between someone who is being faithful to the gospel, but not seeing anyone come forward, versus the person who is not being faithful and not seeing? You know what I mean? How do we know the difference between what the world is miscategorizing and what the world is categorizing correctly? Emir: Yeah. You know, I often ask the question in class when I teach on Adoniram Judson, would we talk about him if he had left after five years? Before he saw a convert? Before he saw people come to faith in Christ? And I don't think we would have talked about him. I don't. But the reason I don't think we would have talked about him is not because he was a failure, but because he walked away too soon. The faithful stay faithful. And that's how we need to consider who are the heroes of the faith is not merely by the recognition of success by numbers. I do worry sometimes that we diminish that so much that we're paying the price for it, right? Numbers do mean something. He who wins souls is wise. It's the recognition that someone cared enough to look at me as a Muslin and say, "I want you in church, and I want to you to be saved." On the other hand, the faithfulness is the reason why it's the ending as much as matters as the beginning. I think God rewards on the beginning as well. But the recognition comes, and I tell students, your greatest part of ministry is not when you're 20, 30, or 40. Your greatest ministry should happen when you're 50, 60, 70, 80 years old, because you're building upon the blocks of God's call that at one point you were a pioneer taking down trees, and now your faithful service, you can look back and see God's hand to such a degree that even if God doesn't do anything from that point forward, there's a joy and gratitude that lives within your heart that gives others who are doing the same calling, and encouragement to walk faithfully. Joe: Yeah. That's a very different kind of thinking. That's a kind of thinking that looks 20 to 30 years into the future, not a kind of thinking that looks two years into the future. I mean of course, we always consider- Emir: Yeah. I worry that Southern Baptists are into fads. But I worry about because just like parachute pants, they're going to go out faster than they ever came in, and for good reason. Joe: Sure. Emir: So when I hear statisticians and some leadership pundits say, "But you got to reach the millennials," my mind is okay, I get that. I understand the technicalities, but the millennial generations now gone. Right now you're dealing with another generation. Another generation. The fact of being faithful does not segregate a population into generations, whether that's an ethnic segregation, or whether that's an age segregation. Instead, the person sits in a neighborhood and says, "That 98-year-old in the nursing home is just as important as the 19-year-old in a college right over there." And many times we see successes reaching the younger and we forget what it is to reach the older who are closer to eternity in so many ways as well. And thereby we designate success by the sex appeal instead of by the sacrifice. That's part of what I think can be a problem with an evangelical life. It's not a denigration. We got to reach the youth, right? When in Georgia the number one number of those who are baptized as a youth is zero, we recognize we have a problem with the youth. But the statisticians never say what the number one number is for the older either. We concentrate so much on one generation, we forget the next, and that is not biblical in any regard. So I think the recognition has to be, all right. If you win New Orleans, then you've got to reach those who are in your community, whether that's in Slidell, or whether that's in an urban community. Whoever's around you, God's put around you. In the mountains of North Georgia, it's going to be different. But we have to be in some ways a generationalist church, one that cares as much as about one age as the other. Joe: You know, leadership obviously is about hard choices. We all know that, hard decisions. You said in an interview back in 2011 that a decision for Christ, this is talking about Muslims, could end in being kicked out of the family or even death. You didn't, if I have this right, you didn't have really much of a relationship with your father for most of your adult life because he was a Muslim. You became a Christian and he basically disowned you. Emir: Right. Joe: Do you think that Christians in America, and I'm talking about people, not Muslims, not your situation, I'm talking about just a person who grows up in a "Christian" home, nominal or whatever. Do you think Christians in America have it easier? Emir: Let me go back on something you said first, because I want people to hear this because when you're reaching out to Muslims, and I've taught Islamic evangelism so much now for the better part of two decades. I think people make ... There's a misnomer out that somehow you got to know Islam well to win someone to Jesus, and it's just not true. It's helpful. It's supplemental, but it's not essential. Those who know Mohammed well are not necessarily those who win Muslims to Jesus. It's those who know Jesus well that will win Muslims to Jesus. On the part of America Christianity, I would say we all have it far easier, not merely other Americans who didn't grow up Islamic like I did, but all of us including me, because while I was disowned by my father, I didn't pay the price that so many are paying across the globe. That usually happens, the demarcation line is with baptism. And at that point of baptism they see you as never returning. By the way, the statistics say that 75% of Muslims who become Christian go back to being Muslim. Joe: Really? Emir: Because of the heavy pressure. Because the fact that Islam isn't merely a religion, it's a 24/7 socioeconomic development of religion that involves every part and aspect of your life from the economy, to how you dress, to who you marry and so forth. But those across the globe, and you're starting to see this incredibly rambunctious powerful movement of God in places like Iran. And why I think that's happening is because the persecution is leading to others coming to faith in Christ, just like in the Anabaptist movement in Europe in the 16th century, just like the persecution under Communism, under my wife's country all the way through the Soviet Union in the 1940's through the 1980's is true of Islam today. The great persecutors of the church day are still Communists in China and North Korea and so forth, but are also, it's Islamism. Not all Muslims, because some Muslims come to America in order to leave the traditional elements of the faith. Not radical. I think people forget, it's not radical Islamic theology to put to death someone who leaves Islam. It's traditional. Mohammed said, "Whoever leaves the Islamic religion, kill him." Comes from Bukhari's Hadith. So that's why 85% of Egyptians say that anybody who leaves Islam should die. It's not radical, it's traditional. So it is. But it's where the church also seems to be growing most. I would just add one other thing. I always hear people say that under persecution the church grows the most. And that's true many times in history, but philosophically doesn't have to be true. Our greatest moments in American history with revivals came when we recognized our dependence of God came when we were polarized as a nation. It didn't come under persecution. It came under different elements. Freedom can birth revival just as well as persecution. It's just a matter of what is God's will in that regard. Joe: As leaders, what can we do to help people get to that realization, which I think is the key. As you were saying, persecution brings that realization that we need God, but there are other things that can bring that realization that we need God. As leaders, how do we get people to understand, or how can we shepard people to that point? What can we do? Emir: Yeah. I tell my students there's an old cliched phrase that says Christianity is not a crutch, it's a wheelchair. You cannot be semi-dependent on God, you've got to be fully dependent on Him. I think we wait for God moments. You know, essentially I tell my children, of whom I have three, you have to learn in one of two ways. You either learn through knowledge, which is to desire scripture, right? The reason God wrote his revelation is that we would read it and follow it, period. But unfortunately we are stubborn and fallen creatures, and so the only other way you learn is through experience. So the two ways that you put that into a person's life is that you preach it faithfully from the pulpit instead of opinionations and things of this nature that become so popular in today's pulpits. You faithfully expound the Word of God verse by verse, book by book. You will hit every topic if you touch every verse. For the second part, which is I would say is the majority of our church members, its experience, which means there are going to be God moments where they recognize they need God. There will be a loss of a job, loss of a family member, a brokenness in their heart and their mind. And that's at that point where the pastor, the shepard has to walk in, and he can do one of two things. He can either assuage their conscious and miss the God moment, or he can like a Barnabas convict and encourage at the same time and allow them to see a dependency on God that will become the pilgrimage. And it is. Revivals are an instant. And I study them faithfully. But faith becomes a pilgrimage. Far after the first great awakening was over, people were still walking faithfully with the Lord. They just weren't seeing the numbers they did under Jonathan Edwards in New England, or Charles Finney's Ohio, whatever it may be. That's just part of what I think it's going to take in America, and if we don't learn through this too, I think the intervention of God is just a matter of time, whether we want to see it as a cause or a permission, it really doesn't matter at this point. But when we put ourselves outside of the umbrella of God's protection by disobedience, what else is going to happen besides the consequences of disobedience that happens to a person or a nation? Joe: I've one last question. Anything you would do over? Emir: Ha! Golly! What would you not do over? I don't know. In some ways, as a historian, I would say no because your scars tell your story. In other ways, any disobedience to God, you'd always want a redo on that. I think the greatest mistake I made young in ministry was I thought I was teachable, but I wasn't as teachable as I thought I was. Joe: Oh, that's interesting. How did you recognize that? Emir: You don't. You wait. Joe: In retrospective? Emir: In retrospect. It wasn't as if I was obstinate. It wasn't like I was obtuse in any way. It's just that my confidence outweighed my humility. And looking back, I think most ministers would say, "I wish I had listened more and spoke less." In particular, one of the things I did, and even wish I would do more is, when I got called in the ministry in the 80's, I made it a point to listen to older preachers and actually to attend conferences where I thought, if this jokers near 90, I'm going to show up because he doesn't have long on the Earth. And so I would hear people that no one else today hear, because they're gone. Right? They've graduated to glory and their time with Jesus is now at hand. And I would encourage that of students is if you find those who are older, and they have been faithful in their walk, go listen to them. You'll catch far more than you know. One of the people I bring into Truett, and every time he just rolls his eyes at me, is Junior Hill. Joe: He was here not too long ago. Emir: Yeah. He's 80 years old. Every time he'll wrangle and go, "I don't know why you want an old codger like me." But inevitably after he's done preaching, the line out the door of students is much longer than he can stand. And it's because the students recognize it's not merely he's grandfatherly, I think there's a recognition of the intangible faith that he has walked with the Lord for decades and decades. And that's what I wish I could even do more is just listen to those who have walked the faith for so long. Joe: Well, thanks so much Dr. Caner for coming on the podcast. It's been great talking with you. Emir: Yeah. It was good being here.

Another one of the top 10 guests of 2018 is returning today to review the SBA process for both buyers and sellers. We'll discuss what's changed and things buyers and sellers need to look out for in 2019. Stephen Speer of ECommerce Lending, based in Florida, is a specialist in eCommerce acquisition deals. He offers a superior financing experience to buyers and sellers. Stephen urges sellers reach out to him to get their game plan ready and advises buyers to get pre-approved in order to get the ball rolling in the right playing field. Episode Highlights: What Stephen looks for in a business when prepping SBA on the seller side. Why co-mingling of multiple business can be problematic for a seller. His recommendations for cleaning up and consolidating financials when preparing to sell. What the the “debt service coverage ratio” (DSCR), also known as “debt coverage ratio” (DCR), is all about. Where the add backs come from and where Stephen's team looks for them. He advises companies to use an external bookkeeping outfit – for a great ROI! How Steve and his group think outside the box when it comes to SBA lending and refinancing in order to make the purchases happen. What he looks for in an SBA financing candidate. Just because you can write a check doesn't mean you don't have to be likeable. Situations or factors that can stop an SBA loan. The importance of reaching out to Stephen before starting to shop for the business that falls into your price range. Stephen reveals his lending sweet spots – the floor, the ceiling, and his averages. All the financing details – down payment, terms, and interest rate. Why sellers and buyers both need to go through the vetting process. Transcription: Mark: Joe last week we aired the episode with Shakil Prasla and we started out the episode with me basically having you fess up to the fact that I have the number one most downloaded and listened to episode. Joe: You're amazing Mark. Let's just say it right now you're incredible. Mark: But you're [inaudible 00:01:07.9] with Stephen Speer and at the risk of becoming a rethread podcast where all we do is bring back our top guests. We are having back one of our top guests this week again. Joe: Stephen Speer that's right. He's an SBA lender which is interesting in that the top two podcasts that we had had been about buying online businesses and we're brokers that sell online businesses. But hey … look you are amazing and you started this company 11 years ago and your focus was education and helping buyers understand the process and helping them as much as the sellers. So it's worked. And the fact that our top two podcasts are about buying online businesses has proven out that theory. We had Stephen back because last year there were a lot of changes in the SBA policies and guidelines. The dollar amounts came down a little bit, seller financing wasn't required on certain deals, and we recapped some of that and we reviewed the process both for if you're a seller what you need to do to get yourself in good shape to be SBA pre-qualified. And if you're a buyer out there looking to build that portfolio of businesses or buy your first one what you need to do in order to connect with someone like Stephen and get yourself in a position that you best be able to act quickly when that perfect business comes along. Mark: So yeah these rules do update on a yearly basis but fortunately this year it doesn't sound like there's a ton of new changes. With that said there's a lot of good information in this podcast because we get these questions over and over and over again about what does it take to qualify. And I think one thing that … I know we talked to Stephen the other day as a company. We had him and a couple of other SBA lenders come into the company and just— Joe: Yup. Bruce from [inaudible 00:02:47.2] bank, yup. Mark: Yup. Bruce from [inaudible 00:02:48.8] bank. You know I think it's important for people to understand that there is SBA guidelines. Yeah, that's one thing, but then outside of the SBA guidelines, there are some individual bank guidelines as well. And to understand that even though these rules and these guidelines that we're going to cover in this episode might be out there they're not hard and fast when it comes to finding an individual lender. Did you cover any of those guidelines from Stephen's group with the podcast? Joe: Yeah, we went over some specific things that he looks for and his firm looks for. He's with Bank One now … or I'm sorry First Home Bank but some of the topics that we touched on on the podcast and even when we talked to him separately and that you and I talked about is why is it important to pre-qualify your business for an SBA loan? Sellers may be thinking well it doesn't matter why should I do that. And the answer is because it casts a broader net and not a broader net of buyers. There are definitely some buyers out there that only want to use SBA funds because that's … they only have 10 or 15% to put down. And then there's another pool of buyers that could stroke a check for one, two, three million dollars but they're building that portfolio like Shakil and using SBA money so they're only putting 10 or 15% down each time. So it's really important from a seller's standpoint to understand the value of clean financials and getting prepared so you're pre-qualified for an SBA loan. And from a buyer's standpoint, it's a great way to go if you're comfortable with that option. Mark: Absolutely. All right let's get into the episode, let's find out what's changed in 2019 and then also recap some of the rules and some of the things that both sellers and buyers should know about SBA loans. Joe: Let's go to it. Joe: Hey, folks, it's Joe from Quiet Light Brokerage, today I have one of our top 10 guests back for 2019 Mr. Stephen Speer. Welcome back Stephen how are you? Stephen: I'm doing great. Thanks for having me Joe I appreciate it. Joe: Awesome. Man, well listen I want to go through all of the SBA lending practices, what it takes to qualify for a business, what buyer's should be looking for, and I also want to get an update on you and your team. I think you made some changes in 2019 … I'm sorry '18 I want to cover those as well. But for those that have not listened to you in the podcast in the past can you give us a little summary, a little background on yourself? Stephen: So I have an e-commerce lending team at First Home Bank. The bank happens to be located in St. Petersburg, Florida. Our team are lending throughout the country. As a matter of fact very few of our loans are actually in Florida but I made a transition months ago with the privilege of being able to grow my e-commerce team and we provide a level of support as we go into the new year. So I'm pretty excited about that. Joe: Yeah, it's exciting and I know that we've done a number of deals together and you've done a lot of work with Quiet Light and some of the other website brokerage firms. How big is your team going to get to? Where are you at now and how big are you going to be compared to where you were before? Stephen: So my team comprises of four people. Myself, a gentleman named Bill [inaudible 00:05:55.9] who is kind of my right hand man along with my underwriter and closing team. So I'm pretty excited about that. I plan to add an additional person in Q1 and another person who I have identified for Q2. So I plan to have three people do what I do. In other words, myself and two more and then stick with my underwriter as well as the closing team. Joe: That's huge. I always worried about you getting hit by a bus. Now you can get hit by a bus and we'll be fine. Stephen: Well yeah, my wife would love to hear that so. Joe: We don't want her listening to the podcast [inaudible 00:06:32.5] buy a bus and start driving around looking for you. That's great man, that's great. One of the things that I want people listening to this to understand is that we've dealt with a lot of SBA lenders over the years and you're a … you're not a banker. You don't come across as a banker. You don't have certain boxes that you must absolutely check every time when you speak our language. And you hang out with e-commerce entrepreneurs which is great. Let's talk a little bit about what it takes to qualify for an SBA loan from the sell side of the business. What do you look for from a business? When I send you a listing and say “Hey Stephen will this qualify?” what things are you looking for? Stephen: Well, first I'd like to … I would say I'd request financials. So first what I look for is what type of business is it? Is it FBA driven, is it 3PL, or do they provide their own fulfillment? So I look at that. If it's a product based business I look at the number of SKU's, type of product. I really do dive into that because one thing I try to avoid is having … trying to finance a single type business that's [inaudible 00:07:45.1]. So that's one thing I look at. So once I get past that I really kind of dive in to the financials. When I mean financials, the holy grail of financials are the tax returns. So for example now that we've entered 2019 I look for tax returns for 2017, maybe 2016 [inaudible 00:08:05.5] year, solid tax return for 2017, and solid year ending financials for 2018, and as we continue down the path of Q1 obviously 2018 tax returns. So basically back to your question a wrap up of … in 2016 of the business, solid year of 2017, and a strong trailing 12 month or strong and the word strong – Joe: Lots of people listening that are on their business will say “Hey that's not a problem. I got tax returns. Everybody files tax returns.” and then they give you a tax return and it's co-mingled with four other businesses that they're selling and they're only selling one … I'm sorry four other businesses that they run and they're only selling one. That's a problem isn't it, the co-mingling of multiple businesses under one tax return? Stephen: That is a problem and unfortunately, it's a problem that seems not to go away despite your best effort and your team's best effort as well as my team's best effort. They just seem not to follow that advice so that is a challenge. Now I do … with that coming up so often I do have a set of things I'm able to put in place, for example, I direct this seller back to his or her accountant and be able to income streams and expenses done in a professional manner. It can't just be Quick Books and I've been able to still get financing for businesses that do have co-mingling within a tax return. Joe: Does it just take a little bit longer to get those worked out and closed? Stephen: It does take longer. Generally, it adds roughly two months to the entire process. Joe: Woah. Stephen: It does take time depending on the responsiveness of the accountant. Especially as we enter Q1 and then start working on returns and start getting buried because [inaudible 00:09:52.5] season. It does take a little bit of time but it's not something that's not doable. The biggest recommendation I have either if you're thinking about selling a portion of your business now is to get on that and have your accountant provide or put together what I call consolidated financials. And basically what we do is we take the tax return and compare it to the consolidated financial which show a delineation of the different businesses and we're able to perform. Joe: Okay so for the sellers out there listening to that and going well I don't have to have an SBA buyer I can just sell to a cash buyer. You're absolutely right, there's a ridiculous amount of money out there in the landscape for people buying online businesses. The reality is though that you want to cast this broad of a net as possible for potential buyers. And we see this over and over again somebody that's from another country that is selling a business if it's a multi-million dollar business but you're not US based, not filing US tax returns. It is more difficult to sell because the buyer pool is not as large. There are buyers out there that I know personally that have the ability to stroke a check for five million dollars but they're smart and they don't want to. They want to keep as much money as they have … as they can and buy multiple businesses and maybe use someone like Stephen and SBA lending and only put down 10 or 15%. So you do cast a broader net if you can do the consolidated financials. If you're just starting off in business your best approach is to have one LOC for that line of product that eventually you may sell. We had Syed Balkhi on the podcast as well and Syed has a number of different businesses and every time he says “okay I'm done with this one” we're able to list it and sell it very, very easily. And the last one I think we did cash … actually, I think we did two SBA loans and it was very easy because he files separate tax returns for each business. That's the ideal situation. How do you feel Stephen about someone selling a business and they're coming to you with Excel spreadsheets for their profit and losses versus Quick Books? You don't really care about that you're looking at the tax returns and a P&L anyway that's in excel format right? Stephen: Primarily if we're talking just a single business, single return, single P&L's yeah that is fine. So that's not a problem at all. Obviously, the more … accounting is all about substance over form, it's kind of an accounting term. That is true but it can't be hand written or something very unprofessional I mean because ultimately underwriters look at that. If that's just kind of run together and it doesn't make much sense it's not done by someone who knows how to do a P&L or a [inaudible 00:12:47.0] but as long as it looks presentable that's fine. Joe: Well, you and your team are betting on the future success of the business. So first you want to see that the business is run properly. And if somebody is not using Quick Books or Xero or some form of accounting software it's an indication that it's not being run in as professional a manner as possible right? So that … okay, and the buyers look at that that way as well. And I could tell you from a brokering standpoint when you're using Excel spreadsheets for your financials and co-mingling it's much more difficult to get maximum value for it because no matter what things are missed. I had a call this morning where there was several thousand dollars that was buried inside of a marketing budget that was actually a personal thing. We had to dig very, very deep to find it. And that times three adds nine, ten thousand dollars up to the value of the business. So ultimately your view is you want to make it a safe investment in financing this loan and make sure there's a success down the road for the future. Is there a … some sort of multiple barrier that is a ceiling for you? Is it … how do you … it's … I can guess you call it debt to income ratios right? Stephen: Debt service coverage. So let's say … okay, so debt service coverage is primarily what we look at. We really don't look at EBIDTA multiple. I mean we do and we don't. The valuation piece definitely we look at that but primarily we look at a debt service coverage. So for example, if the overall loan is the obligation, annual obligation for a loan is $100,000 let's say, the bottom line number on the tax returns needs to reflect at least $115,000. Giving us a debt service coverage of 1.15. Now a lot of sellers run their similar personal expenses through the tax returns. I'm able to add those back so you can't just take a tax return and say okay it's a bottom line of 115,000. You got to take whatever the bottom line number is and then their add backs. Standard add backs would be interest, [inaudible 00:15:02.7], depreciation, amortization, those are primarily some of the add backs. Some of the seller discretionary add backs might be … especially if it's an FBA setup type business where there's run expense, well, the new owner probably will just run it as a home based business, some people add that back. Some people tend to run their car expenses through even though it's a home based business. I'm able to add that back. And any one time expenses, the revamping of a website or other ancillary things or a one time they could add those back. And I take that number and determine the means and debt service coverage. Joe: Do you pull those from our spreadsheets because we have add backs and do you look at those or do you dig into the tax returns for the add backs? Wouldn't it be hard to find them in tax returns? Stephen: Yeah so both, I look at what you provide in terms of your spreadsheet but some of those I'm not able to add back like typically insurance would be really hard. It'd be hard fought to have an underwriter add back insurance expense for example. Joe: It shouldn't be added back. I agree. If it's an expense that's going to carry forward it shouldn't be an add back. Stephen: Yeah and really those … so of your add backs, the ones you reflect typically on your spreadsheet I'm able to add most of those back and those … I use that spreadsheet as a roadmap. But I do go into the tax returns and make sure that the numbers are aligned. And then I'm able to really dig into a tax return and see if there's any other type of add backs that I'm able to find. Joe: Okay, so from a seller's perspective they want to do the best they can not to co-mingle multiple businesses under one tax return. Obviously, have tax returns and a good financial so we can dig into the add backs and make sure that debt to income ratio is going to work, anything else that they should be considering? I think you said obviously you don't want a business that's balanced on just one SKU doing 90% of the revenue. Ultimately the bottom line is you want to make sure that the bank is going to get paid from the person buying the business and it's going to be a success right? Stephen: Yeah and another thing we look at if there's any sort of declining revenue or a blip where … for example I had a client last year that completely lift Chinese new year and didn't have inventory to sell. So there was a blip but I was able to explain that to an underwriter. And obviously with the new buyer who felt that this business [inaudible 00:17:38.3] little bit higher. He was able to avoid any blips in the coming [inaudible 00:17:42.9] for example. So it's also an explanation there. The key for sellers is even if you're not considering selling your business now get these things in place so when you go to sell you're going to get the most amount [inaudible 00:17:58.5] of your business. I had a lot of sellers come to me and it's kind of like they want to list now and their financials are a disaster now. So I recommended that buyers kind of get on the ball. Maybe it's a new year's resolution to fire your current accountant and hire a good one and to really get the financials in place and put certain financial things in place now or pay dividends in the future. Joe: Yeah, I'd refer people to certain e-commerce bookkeepers, two or three of them on a regular basis and have them go back … they'll go back in this case to 2019 and import all the bank statements and vendor invoices and everything and get things updated and accurate. And Quick Books actually helps the CPA do their job better. On a go forward basis, it's the best thing in my experience for a decent sized business to use somebody else. Let them focus on the bookkeeping and you focus on running the business and doing … driving revenue and maximizing profit. I think that's really going to work. Stephen: Oh absolutely. And the return on that investment Joe, I mean you had a podcast recently that— Joe: I'm touched. Stephen: The return on that investment is enormous. Joe: And it's incredible. I've seen it happen firsthand where we've had P&L's in Excel spreadsheets and the deal fell through three or four times and then the guy took the same information, hired a bookkeeper, they put it into Quick Books and we sold the business for 50,000 more of that … I think we had again three or four LOI's and it sold quickly which is fascinating; a fascinating study. Let's talk a little bit Stephen about you. About e-commerce lending and your group and how you think outside the box. Because I want to talk about this a little bit. Not all lenders are created equal. You and I have a transaction going on right now where you had to really think outside the box. And I'm going to summarize it and I want you to then just talk about what your thought process was and how you approached it. We have a buyer at Quiet Light Brokerage that again has the money to stroke a check but he is in a situation where he's building a portfolio of businesses and he's using the SBA lending process. Buyers can take up to what … five million dollars in money right? Stephen: Primarily. Joe: So somebody could buy five … I guess that would be one million dollars I'd then be putting in loans right? They're liable for up to five million. So he's buying multiple businesses— Stephen: One loan or 10 loans it doesn't matter. Joe: Okay perfect. So he has two under a letter of intent with Quiet Light Brokerage now and mine is in the process first. And he's got the wherewithal but I think he had some pretty sizable loans that threw off his overall debt to income ratio. How did you work that out? Stephen: So … and that definitely took a lot of out of the box thinking in the sense that he had … he has an Amazon loan and I can't divulge too much personal information but the monthly payment on the Amazon loan was staggering. It was five figures on a monthly basis. I looked at debt service coverage and throw in a very large five figure monthly payment through all the numbers ROI. Joe: And this is on a separate business that he owns. Stephen: Separate business that he owns. Joe: Right, okay. Stephen: Because it does affect what's called global debt service coverage. So on a separate business that he owns which happens to be an online business. Joe: Right. Stephen: He has very large payment and then he purchased a bunch of inventory and financed it through Amazon. So it threw all the numbers off. So you kind of have to dig deep and say okay how about we refinance at that, take that monkey off his … that large knot off his back and be able to incorporate, be able to reduce that monthly payment and still get the new purchase done. And that's what I'm in the process of doing. His new purchase, his loan on his new business acquisition was just approved and I'm going to process at refinancing his Amazon loan. Joe: Now the Amazon lending loan is very prevalent these days with Amazon based businesses. And you and I have done just for the record content site, SaaS business, all sorts of [inaudible 00:22:00.5] certainly not just Amazon. But in this situation, this particular individual had several hundred thousand dollars in loans and the money gets withdrawn out of their Amazon deposits. Do you recall what the interest rate was then? What his payments were? What the interest rate was and compare it to what you're going to be able to do for him? I just want to emphasize you thinking outside the box and how much money you're going to save this guy on a monthly basis. Because he's thrilled right now I got to tell you he's thrilled. Stephen: So his monthly knot with Amazon was 48,700 and something. Joe: Holy cow, okay. Stephen: It's going to be a couple of grand. Joe: No way 48,000 down to $2,000 … that's amazing. Thank you for thinking outside the box. You're helping him and you're helping a couple of the sellers of the businesses that were doing deals on now. That's fantastic. Stephen: Yeah, and you touched on something really important now. I do have a fair amount of buyers out there, actually, currently 347 buyers out there looking for businesses to buy. And quite a few of them can easily [inaudible 00:23:03.5] for a two three million dollar business but they're building a portfolio. So back to your comment about portfolios a lot of buyers out there right now are building portfolios. They want to buy two, three, four different businesses … online businesses for the course of the next two or three years. And they don't want to use up all their cash. And the fact remains is that when you're trying to scale a business cash is king. You need cash to scale a business. You need to buy additional inventory. You need to grow it. And if you're cash strapped it's really hard to grow an online business. So I'm helping several of those buyers accomplish that. So an SBA loan is not just for the person who needs a little bit lower barrier to entry. An SBA loan is also for the person that could easily pay cash but chooses not to, to stay in line with his or her business goals Joe: Absolutely. Well, let's talk about the buyers a little bit and what you look for in a buyer? You and I have never had a situation where we brought a buyer and you said yes and then it turned out they weren't qualified. But I had a situation a few years ago where I had a couple of Harvard MBA graduates. They literally just graduated a month before from Harvard. They got their Master's in business and they decided to partner on an investment in an online business. And they had some funds. One of the graduates had some funds from a parent. It went through the process. They're pre-approved from a different lender and then underwriting said these guys have absolutely no real world experience we're not betting … I think the deal was two million dollars. We're not betting two million dollars on these guys. Yeah, their pedigree is good, their education fantastic but no and the deal fell apart. What do you look for? Are you looking for real world experience? Is there a certain asset value that they need to have? How do you handle it when somebody comes to you? What do you look for? Stephen: So first I look at … I try to determine and I do interview my buyers. So once you refer them to me I do interview them as you know and one of the first things I really touch on is experience; so first determining if they have direct experience or indirect experience. And then as I mentioned in a previous podcast it's almost like going for a job interview, even if you don't have direct experience you need to make the person real comfortable with hiring you. The same goes with a loan is that even if you don't have direct experience what business … what skill sets do you have that's transferrable and also who's going to fill the void of having direct … let's say SEO experience or direct experience in the space? So those two things I look at. So if the person has direct experience, pretty much a no brainer. A person that doesn't have direct experience it's putting together the narrative like paying underwriter even though here she doesn't have direct experience but indirect experience in these categories. And additionally, they're going to have support via an employee or a contracted employee that that fill a void. Joe: I got you. Stephen: So I'm able to … I've never … honestly, I've never had a deal where an underwriter has said gosh that's great they went to Harvard but they have no direct experience. Joe: We had a situation … I'm going to name a name here but I'm only going to use their first name; a guy named Rocky. Rocky was I think he was in his 60's. He retired and ran a General Manager for some car dealership something … somewhere in the country. I loved the guy. I thought he was amazing. Just as a broker, as a lender you just … you connect with somebody like I want to help this guy. I want to find him the ideal business. Although let me say I told him he's crazy. He didn't need to buy a business. He was retired. What for? You have plenty of money I'm like you're crazy just go play golf or something. But he ended up buying something from us and he didn't have any direct online experience. He was a GM for dealerships that yeah they had websites but he didn't run them himself. I find there are a lot of people in the corporate world that are putting in 60 hours a week that look at the e-commerce entrepreneurs that are selling a business when they're working 20 hours a week and they're making more money and they want to live that life. They want to spend more time with their family, with their kids, travel. Are a lot of the folks that come to you these types of people, and is that in direct experience still okay? Stephen: Yeah so to answer your question yes a lot are. Be it Rocky or any other, they don't have direct experience. So the thing about Rocky is that … first, off he is incredibly likable, incredibly well spoken, and have a very strong resume. The guy was successful in his professional career. Joe: Yeah. Stephen: And then unlike somebody working at a low skill job the guy ran the car dealerships which he was 60 hours. Or he was probably working 90 hours a week now but with a transferable skill set. And also he filled that void of not having direct experience in running an online business but was able to fill that void by bringing somebody in. So we felt very comfortable with that and he ultimately was approved. And the last time I talked to him he's doing very well. Joe: Yeah, I think he bought a business from Amanda. I didn't have one for him at the time but Quiet Light, in general, had one. And I think Amanda loved working with him as much as you did. So the likability factor that Rocky had, when buyers come to you is that important? Do you have to like them to do business or? Stephen: Well not like … I think— Joe: Make a difference with human right? Does it make it a better—? Stephen: They are human. So an underwriter is human and if they have a good dialogue with the buyer, for example, Nathan was incredible as well. Joe: Yeah. Stephen: One of the reasons Nathan's loan sailed through is because he was very well spoken and had the incredible background to be successful. So yeah it does. Joe: Okay so we're going to just touch on that thing that everybody knows but they don't talk about and that is if somebody comes to me, if somebody comes to you and they want to buy a business we want to sell you a business. But if you are 10 times more difficult than the next person and they also want to buy a business, my client … my seller is going to say okay well I've got an offer from each which one do you like more Joe, talk about the plus and minuses. And we've got to do that. And in your case you just said you've got something like 354 buyers on your list. They're looking for a business, they're not buying it from you, they're buying it from the likes of Quiet Light Brokerage. Stephen: Right. Joe: But you still have to work with them on a regular basis and you still have to go through the process with them and be likable. Simple thing guys, everybody listening just be likable. Just because you've got the ability to stroke a check doesn't mean that you can push a guy like Stephen around. There's lots of people that are trying to buy a business, lots of people that are trying to sell businesses and being likable is so-so key because this is an online world. We're not sitting across the table from each other and it makes a huge difference being likeable in the process. Stephen: We've kind of touched on that. I was recently … I have a buyer who's been looking for a year and a half. Not to scare new buyers out there but sometimes it does take a while. But he's not likable. Joe: Okay. Stephen: And he was on a phone call … I was on it as well with the seller and he was beating up the seller on the phone in front of me like I wasn't on the call. I don't know but … and the seller chose another buyer. Joe: It's not hard. I'll talk from personal experience. When I sold my business I remember being on one of these buyer conference calls. I had three or four. Jason Yellowitz here at Quiet Light sold my business way back in 2010. And I had three or four calls with potential buyers before it went under contract and sold it. But I remember sitting … I was in the car on a call and I'm sitting in a parking lot and I've got this guy just belittling my business and talking about all the negative things and I'm just to all I can do to end the call. It's you know … to not end the call and to be polite and it was really hard. And even if he made me a full price offer … all cash, full price offer I have to take into account, sellers have to take into account how difficult that particular type of buyer is going to be in due diligence and in the training and transition period. There's a cording, a relationship it's … it ends at a certain period but you're going to be in a relationship with that person and you want to make that as pleasant and as enjoyable as possible. So being likable is critical without a doubt. Stephen: Absolutely. Joe: What are the top two or three qualities that you look for aside from good financials from the buyer? Like, do they have to have a certain debt to income ratio? Do they have to have certain assets in order to buy a business? Stephen: As I would say assets it's more present driven unlike buying a house. I think we definitely look at what's called post-closing liquidity. For example, when all the dust settles is it broke after closing or still has a fair amount of cushion. So we definitely look at that. Is there outside income? Does [inaudible 00:32:09.5] have a … what I call a day job to … for outside income? That's another thing we look at. So those are two very important variables. Credit score is important but it's not like buying a home where you get to really perfect your lending terms. It's pretty much either get a loan or you don't get a loan in the SBA world. A recent issue … if the person is being down with a ton of personal debt that's something that we look at. Generally, that's a character … it's the ones living beyond their means that's generally not liked. So those are just some of the variables. And also what I look at is does this person have the skill set to be able to scale a business or is the business going to go stagnant as it transitions over to him or her. So that's another thing we look at but [inaudible 00:33:00.5] just some of the variables. Joe: So when someone comes to you and says I want to buy a business part of what you do is you look at their financials. You look at all those variables and you say okay great you qualify to buy a business up to a certain amount. Is that the process? Do you say okay … do you give him a guide as in terms of you can buy something up to a million or two million [inaudible 00:33:19.8] like that? Stephen: Yes and a lot of the determining factor is based on their … is it direct, do they have direct experience or indirect experience? So that is going to move— Joe: Noted. Okay. Stephen: Secondly, post-closing liquidity that's really what I focus on. If the person is trying to buy a million dollar business he has to inject or put down a hundred grand and he has 110,000 in the bank that's not going to work. So we kind of have to move the needle down. Joe: And in that situation, they wouldn't … it's not that they don't qualify to buy a business but in that situation, they wouldn't qualify for a million dollar business maybe a half a million dollar business. Stephen: Right, it would move the target price down a little bit. Joe: Okay so just let me clarify that so that somebody has a $110,000 and they want to buy an SBA business and put 10% down, for those listening that's generally the number 10 to 15% down, 110,000 you're going to be left with 10 grand; not going to work. So you got to look at a half a million dollar business. Stephen: Or 800, 750 something like that. Joe: Yeah and then you look at their debt, what they have, what they need to live off of and that smaller business is not going to cash flow as high especially after the debt service from your loan. So you look at all of that and help them with what they're capable of buying first and foremost right? Stephen: Yeah, most of my buyers have what I call a day job so most of their … in most cases their day job covers their personal debt so that's rarely a real factor. Now I do have an individual recently who didn't have a day job and had tons of personal debts so that kind of blew her out of the water. But generally we do look at that. So again back to post-closing liquidity what I do is … so for all of you out there once Joe refers a client to me for pre-qualification I'm able to have an interview with that person on a scheduled call and ask some questions and also they provide me what's called a financial statement. And then I'm able to in most cases issue a pre-qualification and give them a target amount. In the case … in the example that was well over 800,000 for example. And then that person goes back to Joe and says okay I'm pre-qualified with Stephen, he told me to look at businesses around 800,000 let's go. Joe: And then they have a path which is the most important thing. Somebody that doesn't know what they're looking for, doesn't know what they're buying capabilities are is less qualified from our view. So one of the things we want you to do folks if you're out there as a buyer reach out to someone like Stephen and get pre-qualified so that it will help you narrow your focus. And then the next step is to look at as many listings as possible from the online world and figure out what you like and don't like about the business. When you find the right one if it's a great business you want to be in a position where you're already prequalified to act quickly. Because if it's a great business guess what other people are going to be looking at it and making offers as well, really important there. Stephen: Absolutely especially since there are a lot of buyers out there and if you snooze you're going to lose. So you need to kind of get your house in order before looking. Joe: Absolutely, I agree 1000%. So let's talk quickly about the qualifications of the buyer. Do they have to be a US citizen? Stephen: They could be either a green card holder or a US citizen living in the United States. Joe: That green card holder or US citizen living in the United States, the business itself does it have to be a US citizen or a green card holder filing US tax returns? Stephen: In most cases yes depending on the structure of the business. Joe: Okay, there's always a sort of gray area in the situation. Stephen: Yes, it depends on the structure, you kind of different components as in the past few company on the foreign entity— Joe: Right. Stephen: Things that does affect that answer. Joe: Right. Okay and then your business and the size of loans that you guys generally do, are we're looking at you're looking for a half a million and up two, three million, where is your sweet spot in terms of lending? Stephen: So generally my personal loan floor let's call it is half a million dollars. But obviously, if it's a client I've been working with and happens to just look at $800,000 businesses I would grant one for 400,000 on that person. My average loan amount is about a one and a half million dollar range. So … and you know looking at my 2018 numbers that's close to 60 million, 40 transactions, that's about that number. Joe: I got you. I think we have 38 of them that were directed at me I think right? No, I'm kidding. Stephen: 41. Joe: So you're loaning on the value of the business. And what about if it's an inventory based business are you loaning for the value of the inventory as well? And then working capital … does somebody, do you always loan … give working capital money so that they— Stephen: Always. So a very good topic here so obviously I'm going to finance the business itself. I'm also … if the purchase price of the business does not include inventory I finance the inventory, the on-hand inventory. And what I do is I work with you Joe in determining what that number is going to be at closing. So I finance that. I also include working capital. And that working capital I generally work it into a loan in a sense that I'm able to include it in your market … not directly your market, so okay of that 100,000 working capital 50 is going to be for additional inventory above and beyond what's being purchased with the business. And the other 50 is going to be marketing campaign or advertising campaign, it could be for hiring support staff. Joe: Okay and then lastly I want to talk about the term of the loans. We're talking five years, 10 years, 30 years, what are we looking at? Stephen: It's a 10 year loan and of all those components, by the way, it ends up being all in one loan. It's not where you have separate loans for each. So it's all incorporated into a 10 year SBA loan. Joe: Okay and 5, 6%interest rate somewhere in that range; five to seven? Stephen: Base prime plus two and three quarters, right now it's 8.25. Joe: Prime plus two and three quarters. Okay so for those that want to run their own numbers 10% down, 10 year note, prime plus two and three quarters, do the math on that. Stephen: Yeah. Joe: The seller note in 2017 and prior to that in most of the transactions that we did or did together you required some sort of seller note. And that changed in 2018 so for … got a business that's a million and a half and somebody wants to put down 15% are you requiring a seller note on a deal of that size or are you not anymore? Stephen: So up to 2017 a seller note was required by the SBA and not by the invidual lender. Joe: Okay. Stephen: So typically it was 10% down payment let's call it from the buyer, 15 from the seller or vice versa in terms of the seller note for a total of 25% down payment rejection. Joe: Okay. Stephen: In '18 the barrier to entry was lower. The overall requirement paying on a deal is the minimum 10%. In terms of what lenders require, some lenders require a seller note. We do not. Sometimes I incorporate a seller note to strengthen the loan especially if the buyer does not have direct online experience. So it gives kind of the underwriter warm fuzzies in the sense that the transition will most likely go smoother. The seller has a little bit of skin on the game. So there are situations where I do incorporate a seller note for approval purposes. Joe: So for buyers, sellers, even other brokers listening to this, this is you know you're hearing Stephen say I incorporate this or I incorporate that to help the underwriter feel better about the loan and make sure it goes through. What I do personally is when I have a deal that's pre-qualified by Stephen or someone like Stephen when I get an offer on the business A) I want to know if Stephen knows who they are and if they're working with him and how they look qualification wise. But B) I really like to send the deal structure to you Stephen and say this is the deal structure is this going to float with your underwriters? And I think that's critical to the ultimate success of the loan and the transaction process. Because the last thing that we want … it's happened once or twice and I don't recall if it was with you or not but … where you've … actually no it was with you where the underwriter looked at something and they had to tweak it just a little bit, had to increase the seller note by 5% or something like that. That's not what we want to do so now I run everything by you prior to having a letter of intent signed. I recommend everybody to do that if they're going to do an SBA loan through Stephen and e-commerce lending. Stephen: Absolutely, so that's a very good point as we continue down the path of e-commerce lending I am constantly tweaking the way I do things. And that's one thing I do is I bet really hard upfront so there aren't changes on the backend. Fortunately some of my buyers don't [inaudible 00:42:26.4] the businesses that they're looking at prior to signing a letter of intent. It's kind of an after they do that they come to me and say hey I just bought this business and here's the deal structure I want you [inaudible 00:42:38.3] well that's not going to work. Joe: Yup they don't do that with Quiet Light they have to [crosstalk 00:42:41.7] so the whole process we require that conference call. Because we … it's not, we don't want people to go under a letter of intent just to tie it up and then make a decision. We want them to make the decision, go under letter of intent, and close and go through that process. It just saves everybody a lot of time and hassle. Stephen: It really does. Joe: Okay, any last thoughts about … you want to share with the buyers or sellers that are listening to the podcast today? Stephen: Yeah in terms of sellers even if you're not selling a business now please reach out to me in general and have us put together a game plan for future sale. It's really, really important and again it will be dividends on the backend. And then for you buyers out there reach out to me. I'm more than happy to pre-qualify you for a business. You can reach me at stephen@ecommercelending.com and the first name is spelled ph or call me at 813-766-4524. Joe: Thanks. I will put that on the show notes as well. The last thing I want to say is just to reiterate what you're talking about there with the sellers and it's called choose your pain. Go through the pain of getting your financials in good shape now and having a great transaction and a sale or don't do it and you're choosing your pain later because it's going to be difficult. You're going to be … you're bank account is going to be in pain because you're not going to get as much value for your business. So make the choice and hopefully you'll choose that first one. It's not fun, it's not exciting but it's the right thing to do. Do some valuation exit planning, reach out to Stephen; reach out to anybody at Quiet Light. Go to inquiries@quietlightbrokerage.com myself, Mark, anybody on the team is happy to help you even if you're not planning to sell your business for another two, three, four years. That's what we're here for. Stephen, you're awesome as always. Thanks so much for your time. I look forward to a great 2019 with you. Stephen: Absolutely, Joe. Thanks for having me. I'm looking forward to it as well. Joe: All right man, talk to you soon.   Links and Resources: ECommerce Lending Email Stephen Call Stephen 1-813-766-4524  

Is really possible to acquire 101 Amazon FBA businesses in 2 years? At least once a month we receive a query from buyers and sellers about the company this week's guest founded, 101 Commerce, asking who is behind it and if they're going to be able to pull off what they say they will. It is hard to undertake, but of all the people that we've worked with here at Quiet Light, RJ would be the one to do it. He is here today to talk about what that process looks like so far. Richard Jalichandra, known as RJ, got his start in digital entrepreneurship back in 1994 and has been working in the space ever since. He is a CEO five times over, has held senior executive positions, and has generally been around the digital block several times over. While getting ready to retire – which of course hasn't happened – he founded 101 Commerce under the premise that he and his group would buy, invest in, and relaunch 101 niche private label brands on Amazon. RJ has the experience, the funds, and the team in place to make it happen. Stay tuned. Episode Highlights: RJ shares a few of the impressive businesses he's been involved in launching and growing in the past. How he got involved with 101 Commerce. Why the FBA business model attracted him the most. The 101 acquisition plan and how it came together. RJ stresses that this is not a fund, but an operating company. How 101 commerce is striving to create a next-generation CPG company. What top 3 things RJ and his team look for in a business to purchase. Why the person and the story behind the business matter immensely. How long Richard projects it will take to acquire all 101. RJ stresses the importance of the seller's over package and presentation of a well-run company. Why he recommends using brokers and seasoned experts for efficient due diligence and transaction processes. RJ's shares thoughts on brand expansion potential and tariff hikes. Why solid, prosperous deals need both a good seller and a good buyer to make them work. Transcription: Mark: It's probably at least once per month that I get an email about a certain company in our industry that seems to be making waves and the general question that I get … and actually I've just got this email a few days ago from somebody else that has been our podcast and I won't say who it was but asking who are these guys over 101 Commerce and are they going to be able to do what they keep saying that they're going to try and do? Joe I know you talked to RJ over at 101 Commerce, people that we know pretty well at this point and you talked about what they're doing. Joe: Yeah you know it's pretty incredible. His ability to network and we've done a podcast on networking and I'm telling you just a year ago I spoke to him and he came out of the blue and called me and said this is what we're trying to do and I told him that he was nuts. We laughed a little bit. I really should have looked him up on LinkedIn before I told him he was nuts because he's one impressive guy. What he's accomplished, what he's achieved in the companies that he's built I had him rattle them off after he did his intro. And I said stop being humble name names here and everybody listening will know some of the names that he named. But yeah they're pulling it off. Their goal is to buy 101 Amazon FBA businesses. They love the platform. They love the fact that it's got built in traffic and easy advertising platform and all they have to do is focus on a few things versus driving traffic which Amazon does for them. And I think they're going to pull it off. It's not going to happen in 24 months which was the original goal but they're well on the way. I tried to nail him down on the time frame and he was a little wishy washy on the amount of time it would take. Mark: Well I know the question I get from people on this all the time is isn't even possible to do what they're doing? Buy 101 companies within 24 months or even if it's 36 months. I mean could you buy that many companies? And my experience in this has been that I've seen people try to do this in the past, I've seen people try to acquire multiple businesses and roll them together and build this portfolio and they always end up running into buying a dog here and there. Or having an issue come up or trying to expand the team that quickly. So my response to people, who's pretty much universal … and RJ if you're listening to this, hopefully, you're listening to this, I'll tell you exactly what I tell everyone. It's really really hard to do but out of the people that I've met, he's probably the one person I would bet on being able to do this. And so I'm like a lot of other people I kind of grab my popcorn and I'm sitting back and I'm watching because this is really fascinating to watch them go through. How many are they up to right now as far as acquisitions that they've completed? Joe: I think the last time we chatted and we didn't get into specific numbers on the podcast but the last time we chatted I think it was about 14 brands and they're trying to get their systems and their processes in place and bring on more and more people. We ended up doing I think eight businesses for 14 brands with a total of three people. And then they realized we need to have some operations here and build some systems and processes so they've been hiring like crazy; and some really really talented people. So I'm with you. I think if anybody can pull it off … there's a few that I think could, but I think RJ and his team are one of them. We've had some other folks that are doing similar things as you know that have purchased a couple from us; Brad, in particular, has sold two to them recently but I think they'll pull it off. I think it will take longer than the 24 to 36 months. And I'd be betting on more from beginning to end maybe a total of 60 months. It's a big undertaking. Mark: Yeah and folks I want to say that again how many in how long? Joe: 101 businesses. Mark: No how many have they done so far? Joe: Oh 14 brands. Essentially eight purchases but within that there are … I believe there are 14 brands. And that has been less than a year. I think the first one happened early in the summertime. So it's really less than six months. Mark: Absolutely incredible and we're seeing this from a few different places. I know we had Shakil Prasla on quite a while ago now. I'm talking about how many he's bought, and he's bought more since we had him on. At that point, it amassed eight different companies … acquisitions that he had done over just a few years. So there are ways to do this. And by the way, Shakil's method is different than what RJ and 101 is doing. So there are a few different paths towards building up this portfolio and really scaling up pretty quickly. A fascinating example of somebody doing this at scale within the industry and definitely I'm sure this going to pop up there as one of the more popular episodes. Joe: So let's you and I stop talking about it and hear what RJ has to say. Mark: Sounds great. Joe: Today's guest is Richard Jalichandra … actually RJ. How are you doing today RJ? RJ: I'm doing great Joe. How are you? Joe: I'm fantastic. Good to see you. Hey, let's do the thing where you tell everybody about you instead of making me read the script. Can you give everybody some background on yourself? RJ: Yeah I'm an old digital entrepreneur. I dig my gut onto the internet in January of '94 building my first website for an agency client and I've been doing it ever since. I've done a whole bunch of different things. I'm a five time CEO now but I also hold senior executive positions at a whole bunch of venture and PE backed companies. So I just kind of have been around the block for quite a while. And then I tried to retire last year and then something I think you're probably going to ask me about kind of like I got a bug in my ear and back to your podcast got in my ear a few times and maybe influenced my current gig. But yeah recently we founded 101 Commerce and essentially what 101 is doing is we're buying, investing, and launching theoretically 101 niche ecommerce privately. We're running it on Amazon and we're a little bit into it as you know. Joe: A little bit. I remember that first conversation we had. Some guy named RJ called me out of the blue. I should have looked you up on LinkedIn before I told you you were nuts because that's exactly what I said. Do you remember the conversation? RJ: Yup. Joe: You're nuts. You're going to buy 101 Amazon businesses and you're going to run them, operate them, build a staff around that. You're crazy. RJ: You weren't the only one. Joe: You might still be crazy but you're pulling it off. Well, listen you're being very humble here in terms of your background. Come on share some of the businesses that you started and you rank them. Its name dropping please do it so that everybody knows. RJ: Well some of the ones that are … I mean depending on what your flavor is whether it's fitness or video games or … yeah let's see a couple, I mean I've done a bunch of things but the one that have seemed to kind of ring a bell on everybody, the video game space I was one of the senior executives of the company called IGN Entertainment where we ran a massive gaming network that have reached 50 million dudes; 13 to 34 year old dudes at the month. And famously of all the acquisitions I did, they are the one that always delights people at cocktail parties with Rotten Tomatoes. So I did a bunch of acquisitions there but Rotten Tomatoes is kind of the one that I can throw out there. And also everybody is like wow you did Rotten Tomatoes. I'm like no I didn't found it but I did buy it. I'm really good friends with the founders of it still today. And then let's see … I ran something called Technorati which at one point was a social media darling until a small search engine company in Nutview did some things that made it very hard to compete from other search engines. And then I ran- Joe: [inaudible 00:07:56.2] name. RJ: No we won't name any names but yeah, just some small company in Nutview. And then let's see, after that, I did a fitness company called Map My Fitness which was then sold Under Armour. I mean that was a really successful fitness set of apps Map My Run and Map My Ride [inaudible 00:08:14.8] doing the cardio, a lot of people touched those at some point. And then I did a company nobody ever heard of. I was an enterprise media space … advertising media space; I'm running behind the brands. I sold that in 2014 and then I tried to retire then. And then I decided to do one more fitness gig and was the CEO of BodyBuilding.com and then that led to my second retirement attempt. Then here we go. Joe: Maybe the third time will be a charm. I think the list of businesses you just mentioned probably touched on 90% of the people listening know of at least one if not more of those especially the Map My Fitness and all that good stuff. All right so about … what 18 months ago now? Or no it's less than a year ago or about a year ago you and I had a conversation and you said hey look I'm reaching out, we're putting together a fund. We're going to buy 101 Amazon businesses. Why? Why are you focused on Amazon? Why are you not retiring like most sane people would do when they have the ability … no, I'll skip that, why are you buying 101 Amazon businesses? What's the theory? What's the plan? What's the concept? RJ: Well I'll back up a little bit and kind of tell you how I stumbled into it. Joe: Okay. RJ: So I mean I was going to try and retire. I'm still young enough though. I figured at some point I might jump back into a CEO chair or something like that but I promised my wife I was going to take two years off. No W2ing, just literally going to play golf, mountain bike, have some fund, raise my daughter, advise, maybe do some angel investing. And that was kind of the plan but I was also I go and I ever do want to get back in the chair will be kind of hard to do. I just was really on the beach for two years and not really educating myself. So I had this idea that I was going to buy a solopreneur 4-hour workweek business which I'm sure you've heard that one a few times in your job. Joe: A couple of times. RJ: A couple of times today but that was literally the goal. It was to buy a 4-hour workweek gig. Joe: Yeah. RJ: And so hence I wanted something that was at least a couple of years old. So somebody else has already done all the hard work, done the early stage startups. I know how hard they are to get things off the ground. I wanted something that was more matured and seasoned where I was more twisting knobs than actually lifting heavy boxes. Joe: Yeah. RJ: I looked at a whole bunch of stuff, not just Amazon businesses. I looked at SaaS, content; I have a lot of experience in content. I sold a SaaS company. I looked at lead gen, affiliate, and I looked at digital content. I was on the board of a company called Click Think which a bunch of your listeners have probably heard of as well. I was the chairman there so I knew a lot about NAT ecosystems. I was looking at all whole bunch of different things and I kept coming back to Amazon FBA. And the more I dug in on it I was just kind of blown away by the operating leverage that you get out of Amazon FBA. I mean essentially as I explained it to people when I'm trying to fish investors or just tell people I'm doing this you know my last real job we had 800 employees, 6 fulfillment centers, 500 people on the warehouse and you have to generate your own traffic. We had to spend tens of millions of dollars on advertising and all that. Essentially with Amazon FBA, you outsource all those hard things. You don't have to worry about fulfillment. You certainly don't have to worry about traffic because you have 300 million of the highest converting consumers there are. So … and then, of course, the advertising platform is built-in. The customer service system is built-in. So basically I kept meeting and hearing about and listening to [inaudible 00:12:01.8] podcast including yours, people who are essentially running these really good businesses had really good net margins. And I wouldn't be shocked you know there's a plenty of people kind of running sub 1 million dollar businesses but every once in a while I meet somebody running a 15 million dollar business and was essentially a sole proprietor with a couple of VA's and they're running at 30% net. I'd scratch my head and go wow that's a way better business model than setting up your own ecommerce site and got in your head against you know Google and Facebook and trying to get traffic as well as having to compete against an Amazon itself why not lean into it, take advantage of that operating leverage, and see if you can build something that was incredibly profitable at scale. Joe: What about the risks? A lot of folks that I talked to are saying no, no, no, I don't want to buy an Amazon business. I think there's too much competition. It's too much risk and Amazon might pull the rug out from underneath me. They may just decide someday they don't want any more seller accounts or third party sellers. What do you have to say to those folks? RJ: You're right. Just go away. Don't look at Amazon businesses. Leave them all for us. Joe: You know what my answer is there are people out there like RJ that are a lot smarter than me that are doing it so there must be something okay with it. RJ: Look I mean there is no doubt there's proper risk of course. But when I was out in the open web there was platform risk as well. I've had Google like I said destroy one of the highest profile companies that I was at. Oh did I say that name? I shouldn't have said that. But I mean in other places and I've seen it happen and- Joe: It's okay don't worry about it. RJ: Okay, all right. Joe: The panda update, the penguin update they've all have affected … those have affected probably again 90% of the people listening so it's okay. They're probably happy. RJ: So everybody knows what I'm talking about. Joe: Yes. RJ: There is platform risk wherever you go. And even in today's thing where Google doesn't have quite the sway they used to, now you have Facebook and Instagram risk because those are the big traffic drivers of other third party traffic sources and stuff. So you're always going to have platform risk. And I just got comfortable with it because the FBA and the marketplace ecosystem on Amazon is literally what's driving its growth right now. I mean if you look at all the stats behind the curtains or whatever, it's driving the growth. And if you look at 20 years of operating history and behavioral study on Jeff Bezos he usually doesn't throttle things that are growing like a wheat. Joe: That's true. He doesn't. That's a good point. That's the answer I'm going to use from now on when people ask me about that risk. All right so in terms of- RJ: But I will make it clear there's a lot of stupid things you can that gets you into trouble and then there's some inadvertent things that could happen to you that do present risk. I don't want to make it sound like- Joe: It's not risk free. RJ: It's not risk free and we certainly are going into this with our eyes wide open knowing that even the best laid plan, buy 100 of these things who knows what happens. There's a portfolio theory and it goes both ways; good and bad. Joe: Right now Mark had an expert on from a PE firm in the last podcast maybe and I actually listened to it yesterday. By the time this this airs it's probably 3 or 4 weeks ago and the concept was buy them at a certain multiple pull them together and it's worth more automatically. We've all talked about that concept. Is that what struck you initially in addition to the scalability because of the platform itself? RJ: Well the first thing you should do is you should introduce me to that guy and we should get to know each other because there may be something we could do. The second thing is … I mean there's more to it than that. If it was just a financial arbitrage I probably wouldn't be that interested in it. There's a lot of places where you can do financial arbitrage. I love ecommerce so first off that just gets me from a personal standpoint. But what I like is just knowing that they're with resources, working capital, domain expertise, specialty expertise, how much you can grow these things is really kind of what interests me. I guess I'm not just interested in the financial arbitrage. I would correct something else that you said kind of the outset that we raised a fund. A lot of people think that's kind of what we do because they don't understand the PE and venture markets. But I would absolutely categorize us not as a fund. We are absolutely an operating company that works closely with venture and private equity funds. Joe: Yeah it's fine. We're trying to put a label on you recently and what you do and what some other folks are doing and it's … I mean it's … well, what is the label? You're just a company that happened to get some that you went out and raised money and are investing it in Amazon businesses. Is there an official label for your type of organization or is there not? RJ: Well what we're trying to do is create a next generation CPG company. Joe: CPG stands for? RJ: Consumer Packaged Goods, more than a CPG because Amazon obviously sells more. But essentially what we're doing is we're putting together a portfolio … a wide and broad portfolio of niche private label brands that sell predominantly; not exclusively but predominantly on Amazon. And that's really what it is. It's a multi-brand platform. You could think of it as any multi-brand consumer goods company like a Procter & Gamble or something like that. Joe: Okay so not unlike our friend Bill D'Alessandro at Elements Brands and what he's doing but it's a little bit more specialty niche and- RJ: Absolutely. Joe: That's what you focus on on Amazon. Okay. RJ: No and I love what Bill's doing too but it's very similar. He has a multi-brand strategy although he's taken a little more narrow focus than we are. Joe: Absolutely. Okay, let's talk for the sellers that are listening what is it that you and your team look for? What pops out to make you go I love that opportunity? Is it brand, is it gross margins, is it workload, is it … what three or four things do you generally look for when you're looking at one of these opportunities? RJ: I mean the first three things that we look at when we're just doing the highest level screens like when you send materials out we're just looking for a couple of really broad things. Because there's a lot of this for sale, between your guy's brands … absolutely a great deal flow. Joe's probably going to work at the Senate at some point but of our first cohort, almost 50% of the deals set were from Quiet Light so thank you for that. You guys do a great job. Joe: Thank you. RJ: With that said, some of your competitors also do a really good job putting together great materials and all that. So we're evaluating stuff. We're trying to screen just the sheer volume of things that come through the door. So we look at gross margin and net margin that tells us kind of a lot about the health of a business and what the opportunities are. But of course on Amazon the currency there is reviews so we're looking for what we term review restructure. It's not really a good phrase because what it really means is your relative strength, the velocity of reviews, quality of the reviews, how the reviews were generated. But right up the bat what we're trying to do is look at those three broad metrics to decide if we want to dig deeper or not. Joe: Okay and once you find a business that checks all of those boxes do you then go and jump right to the financial conversations with the sellers or do you say okay what platforms, are they selling in the US or can I expand internationally? Is there something else like a growth opportunity that sort of takes it over the top? RJ: Well one of the other things I love about what the materials you guys send us and some of … again some of your other- Joe: Include the competitors because this isn't about padding Quiet Light Brokerage. RJ: No, no, no I mean- Joe: And I won't pull a quote out of this just for the record. No, I'm kidding I- RJ: No, I'm good sorry. It's not just you but the other top brokers and guys that really put together quality materials and stuff. It really does save us a lot of time because normally you got to do a screen call before you even want to setup a call with somebody. Because of the interviews that you guys do you get to hear a little bit of the narrative. I think this is something that people forget when they're trying to sell businesses or sell anything; story and narrative is really important. If you basically have a very good narrative for everything from how you originally … what you did before you even started the business and then how that morphed into a business that narrative is really important for me to hear. And it's really important when I'm out pitching our investors as well. There's a lot of investment opportunities, a lot of money floating around and whatever but they want to know … they kind of want to hear your story and how the whole thing kind of morphed into what it is. And the same thing when I'm looking at even the smallest Mom-and-Pop business I've ever bought, I want to know about them. Where they're from, what they did in the previous career, and then how all of a sudden this thing kind of caught fire. Because that's really the moment like most of the things that cross those three bars, the first initial bars. Joe: Yeah. RJ: Somehow or another they've gotten some critical mass. They figured something out. In spite of the fact they might not have a working capital, they might not be a rocket scientist or an expert on PPC or fulfillment or something, they figured something out and that's kind of what we want to hear in that narrative. Joe: And the person behind the business I think is what you're saying matters tremendously it's not the numbers. RJ: Absolutely. So in addition to that narrative, the way they present that narrative tells you a lot about them whether or not … and again you can get this just by reading your memorandums. You can kind of get whether they're out for a quick walk or they're kind of at the end of their line and maybe just running out of gas and it's time for them to kind of move on and hand it to somebody who has even more gas. And it's also part of that narrative is getting me excited about the product category or something like that. But it tells you and then, of course, you're going to get to the … I know you're going to ask this but by the time we actually get on the phone with somebody or in video or whatever one of the most important things that I understand if a person is … a person integrity. Are they honest? It's often kind of like when you get on that first call, it's usually not in the books. Occasionally it's in one of the books but usually, on that first call a really honest person is telling you okay here's all the warts, here's all the things that aren't going well, you need to be addressed, I wish I could do better that kind of thing. So I think that's really important. So narrative and then the integrity comes out in that and then certainly I want to know … don't ever try and kind of hide the bad stuff because if you tell a great story and then you get indulgence and then all of a sudden the warts start appearing and you're like well you didn't tell me about that then there's an integrity. Joe: Yeah and you lose that trust. And this is not rocket science for the maybe the other brokers that are listening or people that are trying to sell their own business on their own. It's important to act with full disclosure and ask those questions and answer them thoroughly so that when you do get on that phone call that trust is continued to be built. And as I say … look creating a great package is not the hard part, connecting with great buyers like yourself RJ is not the hard part. Going at a letter of intent is not the hard part. The hard part is getting from letter of intent all the way through due diligence to closing. And if you do everything right, free LOI that becomes easier. Things still go off the rails. You and I had one go off the rails a little bit this summer and it got back on but it helps tremendously with full disclosure and trust being built and the people behind the business acting with integrity. It's not just the numbers. RJ: Right and the other thing you get and by those disclosures too is we also start operating the business pretty close. And I think that's a really important thing. I mean you're not operating a business but you're starting to think like the operator. Joe: I was going to say we don't … you don't get any control of anything- RJ: No but you're mentally putting yourself in the shoes of having a steering wheel in your hip. Joe: Right. RJ: And I think that's really important because it gives you a lot more confidence to get to the finish line. Joe: So let's talk about that and 101's operations. When you buy a business from a solopreneur or someone who has a small staff or VA's are you generally … and I know the answer to this, are you generally taking it over completely or are you bringing them on to help operate the business with you? RJ: That's a TBD I mean it really depends on the entrepreneur and the situation. Frankly, there are some people that they're just done. They want to go do something else. Joe: Yeah. RJ: This was their side hustle. They really love what they're doing. They may have financial reasons that they want to get out. We are looking for the rare entrepreneur and then the other thing is they can even want to jump on our boat but they may not have the right personality to be in a really high speed tech thing where you got to work as part of a team and any time we put more people together. They're humans and things don't always work right when humans interact even with the best of intentions. So it really is a TBD thing. If there are … in our first cohort we were probably looking to just take the businesses and actually create kind of a sandbox with these where we can build what I call platformization of the company; people, processes, frameworks, technology that allow us to go do this another hundred times and a hundred times after that. So with that said the first eight businesses that we bought we now have … I wouldn't call, I call it two principals have joined us from those eight. One was an owner and one was literally the guy who's like the GM who is running the business. Joe: Okay. They're going to help you with the other … what 93 that you buy, is that the plan and the goal? RJ: Yeah. 93 is the next milestone and then we'll see what happens after that. Joe: You're going to do that in 2019 or is it going to take a little longer? RJ: It's probably going to take a little longer then. Joe: Okay, I'll help as much as I can. RJ: I know you will. Joe: Talk to us about the importance of having a good presentation at package together before you ever get on that phone call in terms of … look I mean to be blunt you and I talked about you coming on the podcast a while ago and I said no. I said it didn't make sense because I didn't want people reaching out to you directly. And then I saw you up on the stage at Brand Builders Summit, you advocate now of a few different things. One is working with brokers because everything is handed to you kind of on a silver platter but then I think also you've talked about specific attorneys and things of that nature. What are those few things that you say now that you've learned and you've got a certain amount of deals under your belt that you're going to sort of also not just in terms of the business three check boxes but your processes going forward for somebody that is also maybe building a portfolio even if it's a smaller content site portfolio things of this nature, what certain things are you trying to put in place like working with brokers, like working with certain attorneys, and things of that nature, anything? RJ: Yeah no gosh you just hit on the mother lode there. Let's go in no particular order but let's start off first with the broker no broker question. So people heard about what we were doing, the word kind of got out there and frankly, we had hundreds of leads that came in through our website. A very few of those were for a surprising number that would have crossed kind of our minimum thresholds and something we would have been interested in. But when we do a deal like that we have to do a heck of a lot more work. A lot more work. And it's kind of hard pressed to sift through that. If they don't come with their own package, financials, a really good narrative, good transparency, it's going to be a lot of work for us. And most people don't know how to sell a business. I mean let's just call it like they make selling business hard. So we're happy; very happy to work with brokers because we feel there's a couple of things that brokers do. You validate a deal for us. I mean basically, you're not just going to take … your time is valuable; you have other opportunities and things like that. So we know that you're already in a little bit of a quality … you're checking a quality box. And then, of course, you help in put together really nice financials and things like that; things that you know are going to make it really fast for us to kind of do that. And then I'd say another really important thing for a buyer to consider and then we're going to link with a lawyer or other professional services because frankly brokers pride in professional service. When you're selling a business for the first time or even a second time, third time, fourth time, fifth time, but certainly the first time … if you've never done it before it is going to be emotionally traumatic. Joe: I know you're going to go there. It is so emotional. RJ: And it's your baby. It's your baby and guys on the other side of the table they're professionals and they do this for a living or whatever and it's not that you're going to feel like you're outmatched. It's just you've never been through it before and it's incredibly stressful. And some buyers are going to ask … they've got investors and they require them to check a whole bunch of boxes before they actually write a check. So they're going to ask you to check all those boxes too and that can be incredibly stressful. So having a shoulder to cry on i.e your broker and play- Joe: Or vent to. RJ: It's not … no that's it, a lot of it is just like I cannot tell you … I mean I have bought a small business once, probably 15 years ago … 14 years ago. I bought a small business that wasn't represented by a broker and I am not exaggerating when I tell you I hired him a therapist. Because otherwise, we're not getting … neither of us is going to get what we want because the guy is going to fall apart. And so I have a feeling a lot of people probably underestimate just how hard the emotional side of getting a seven figure deal done. There's a lot at stake on both sides of the table and [inaudible 00:30:59.4]. So there's a lot there. Of course, you guys do a lot on just the sheer process side that is there but I would say that's an underestimated really big value thing. Just being the therapist through the whole process. Joe: Yeah it takes a good buyer too; a good broker, a good buyer. But what about the attorney side of it? You've had some experiences with great attorneys and maybe some tough ones too. What is your view in terms of that aspect? I think you actually … you and I talked to at one point where you're going to do … are you still considering requiring your sellers to work with a select group of attorneys that you know have ecommerce experience? RJ: Yes. So and before I even get to that I would just give this is a huge bit of advice to any seller. Do not use your family attorney. Joe: Well there's … I mean I have an unwritten rule that if somebody comes to me and they want me to sell their business I ask them point blank do you have an attorney and are they related? Is it your mother, brother, father, sister, cousin, aunt, uncle, etcetera? Because I had an experience where I had someone that was a few years out of grad school, they started a business in college. We got the business under a lot of intent, over asking price and it was a few years ago so I was fairly new RJ. But his mentor in grad school was an attorney, my trade. His fiancée was in law school and his mother and father were attorneys. The deal blew up. It was a one sided contract and there was absolutely no way to fix it. And the buyer was fantastic it was very fair. It was fantastic, it blew up, went away and I learned that lesson. So what you're saying right now to anybody that wants to have a relative as an attorney it's a really bad idea because they're going to fight like rabid dogs for things that don't necessarily matter and kill the deal for you. Is that what you- RJ: Yeah … no, I would take it even a step further. I actually wouldn't mind if they were your family attorney if they happen to be an ecommerce lawyer because the domain expertise is also really important. You can't just take somebody even if they've done M&A that they sold dry cleaner chains or something like that. Ecommerce and digital assets are just different and so if you don't have a lawyer who has the domain expertise we're probably going to have issues because we're going to have to spend a lot of time educating. So I would highly recommend … and look Joe can recommend, most of the brokers have their stables of good recommended lawyers. But just because you have a lawyer, maybe you have a good business lawyer don't necessarily use that one. Look for somebody with the exact domain expertise of what you're getting into. And then the last thing I'd say about lawyers is lawyers love to point score. I mean this is kind of what they got graded on in law school when they're doing all that. They like point scoring and the one thing … a bit of advice I give to anybody who hires a lawyer is remember the lawyer works for you, not the other way around. So you need to watch whether they're going into point scoring mode just for the sake of wining points. And you have to understand it's not 100 points in a deal. It's usually like four or five that matter. And yet there's the long contracts, it's four or five that matter and then may be one or that lean or important to you and that's kind of what you need to focus on. Make sure you that manage your lawyers so that they know what's important to you. And they're not worried in section 17 and 19 where it's [inaudible 00:34:40.3] and crossing tees and that some warranties and things. Joe: I agree 100%. If I could look back at all the transactions, for the most part, the buyers are good people, the sellers are good people, and if we lived in a different world they could shake hands and the deal would be done. RJ: Yup. Joe: You do have to have contracts. We do have to have attorneys but it needs to be a fair and balanced deal for both parties. It's … I've only had one deal fall apart because of the attorney and it was, in fact, that situation that I just mentioned. Let's talk for a minute and jump over to owning an Amazon business for the people that are buying. We talked about what you look for from sellers but from people that are buying what are your thoughts on if it's 100% US based Amazon business and they've got the capital? In your opinion and experience now should they look at either expanding these skews in the US or maybe looking at the EU and different market places or does it simply depend upon the brand? RJ: I think it's highly contextual. Every situation is going to be very different. There's a ton of these Amazon podcasts that say skew expansion and international expansion which both require working capital. I don't think it's as simple as that. I think you really have to kind of look I have met people literally in the last month where they tried to go overseas and failed miserably because their product category just wasn't appropriate for European market or whatever market. So I think it really is highly dependent there. But it's certainly worth investigating. One of the things I like about Amazon is that you can experiment relatively cheaply for thousands if not low tens of thousands of dollars where you may not get hurt too badly if you made a big mistake. Essentially taking existing products and doing a small MOQ and launching it in Europe, if it fails miserably again if you have the right gross margin structure you're probably not going to lose money [inaudible 00:36:36.9] an opportunity cost. But look if you're going to be successful … I mean you've said this on your podcast you got to take some swings at the play and you're not going to always hit the ball. Joe: Got you. All right let's talk about another big fear given that you're an expert in this space now and you own … I'm not going to say exactly how many and neither are you probably, let's say more than 10 brands and FBA businesses altogether. How big is your fear of potential tariffs getting your individual brands? Does it keep you up at night? Does it hit every single brand or certain categories? Can you just touch on that as an owner in the space now? RJ: Sure. It's really also is highly dependent on your exposure to Chinese manufacturing. So yeah … so we certainly have our fair share of products that are manufactured in China. It's certainly something that we are monitoring and we are thinking about. At the same time … and Joe you know this personally, we've expanded rapidly into Europe. We own two European businesses now and so we will look at it later to expand it even more with Chinese based products as we go into Europe. Look I mean- Joe: [inaudible 00:37:47.1] Europe and not being impacted. Is that … okay, and will you have an opportunity? Have you done the financials? Does it make sense if you do that and shift from China to Europe to then import from Europe to the US and avoid the tariffs or is that just simply too much cost shipping wise? RJ: Oh that's a great idea, Joe. You should come work for us in our supply chain. Joe: No thanks I'm not that deep though you've got smarter guys than me. I know one of them … a lot of them actually. Is it something you guys are already working on and something you've crunched the numbers on? Come on I know you probably have. RJ: I think it's still early days and look we're thinking about it a lot. We're thinking about well … I mean it's too Wednesday about it. Everybody gets it. Everybody is all level playing field but it's not that simple. If it changes the price dramatically where there's price elasticity of demand issues in the category that can just impact overall demand. So look we're worried about it. We're hoping that it gets resolved and most of the time what you see in these geo political things is they usually the small period of exposure and everybody actually finally sits down and see when we get to the problem fixed. So that's what we're hoping for knock on wood. Joe: Let's both do it. Everybody else do it now as well. All right let's talk about a first, at least a first for me and I think a first for Quiet Light Brokerage although we've got a second in place now and it may happen before we close. On a transaction that we did together we actually instead of selling or transferring control of the Amazon seller account entirely we tested and successfully moved a brand from a well-established existing seller account took VA's in and tested it in another account that you happened to own. Can you talk about that a little bit for those … and I'll tell you why, because there's always a fear. Some people want to keep their seller account in particular over in the European markets. For some reason, some people are a little bit more fearful in some other countries. For some it's a legitimate fear, others I would say not but we tested that and it … can you just touch on that and what you did there and what you prefer whether it's buying a brand and moving it into your own seller accounts or buying the seller account entirely? And what the difference is between the two for you got. RJ: Yeah no, no, no, we'll just talk about the actual experience. So yeah we were certainly … we had our own questions, the exact process that we used was we did a test. So we didn't move all of the Asense over at once. We took three Asense, a top selling Asense, a medium selling Asense, and actually, it was two medium selling Asense and one longer tail Asense. I didn't want to jeopardize or risk a top selling Asense and until we moved into this other seller account. It was not equal. It wasn't too far behind. But it was definitely a smaller seller account than the one where they originated from. Joe: Were the reviews on the second seller account that you moved it into were the seller account reviews better or worse than the one you were moving it from? RJ: Worse. Joe: Worse, okay. RJ: They weren't bad but that's a worse- Joe: 4 ½ to 4 or something, okay. Sorry I had to clarify. RJ: Yeah I think it was like 2000 like 1200 or something overall reviews. Joe: Okay. RJ: But look the product reviews go with the Asense. So that's a really important thing in a seller account. If you are selling 3rd party products, you're selling Nike's and there are 20 other vendors on Nike's and you're fighting for the buy box, then your seller rating is a heck of a lot more important than the case for your private label. I know that's important- Joe: The big mystery and big unknown that so many experienced Amazon sellers people that are doing half a million or a million dollars a month is we don't know how important those seller account reviews are. When you … I mean obviously they're important in some way but when you go from 4 stars to 4 ½ and 4 ½ to 5. So, in this case, you moved some of the Asense over, obviously the review … product reviews carried over and if … was it a … I think we did a three week test and talk about how it turned out and we ended up closing the transaction. RJ: It was a 15 day test and then we extended it for a couple of days so it was just under three weeks and the seller was awesome. He is super cooperative. We were also risk averse as he was risk averse. We are risk averse so we really cooperated well to see if we could make the test as well. The other thing we had to replicate is GPC campaigns so they were identical. Joe: Yeah. Was that an automated process or a manual process? RJ: I didn't do it myself Joe so I can't tell you the exact process. I try and keep my hands where they're good and that's not one of them Joe: Okay. RJ: But from what I understand the seller actually created these campaigns for us and literally proved that it was a cut and paste. And then our team put it into our seller account. And then he had access to our seller account too … or viewing access or whatever so that he could make sure that it was setup. Because like I said he always intended to make it work. Joe: Yeah. RJ: So he wanted it to work and we had a couple of checks in there on our side to make sure that there's no way [inaudible 00:43:15.2] the situation even though we didn't really have any fear with him in particular. But it is something that you want to like at least have a couple of safeguards that somebody is not running a big Facebook campaign and juice in the results or something like that. Joe: All right so just for point of clarification for everybody listening the typical way that an Amazon business transfers is that the entire seller account transfers. Generally, in asset sales, the new owner takes control of the seller account and you're left with an empty shell of your corporation. What we did in this situation was move the Asense from one seller account to another. All the product reviews carried over. The seller account wasn't as high quality. We tested it out for a few weeks in a few ways and duplicated the sponsored account. And it turned out great. The seller has to help and it's in their best interest. And this is the big picture thing here Richard, it takes … and you talked about it throughout here, it takes a good buyer and a good seller to make a deal work. It's … nothing is cut and dried, there is lots of emotions involved in the process when you're selling and even for a first time buyer. Some people are putting their life savings on the line and they want to make the right choice so emotions run high all across the board. And it's never a winner take all situation, both a buyer and seller have to be happy at the closing table. It begins way back at the initial call and building a good package and managing your own personal brand and reputation. Doing the right thing as a seller and thinking someday maybe you're going to exit; maybe you're going to pass it on to your kids. Either way, you want to pass on something really great because if your kids take it over you want them to be successful because it may be your retirement money. And if you pass it on to someone else you're willing as a buyer Richard … RJ to pay more for a company that is really tidy and neat and you're able to just take off with it as opposed to sifting through the details and fixing things first I would imagine, right? RJ: Yeah and I'm going to say something that my team would probably kick me into shins over but I fundamentally believe this. And my mentor who kind of trained me in my career he always said always be willing to overpay for a great asset because the good ones are hard to find. And as you were saying that … so again if somebody is really running a great business we're not going to get in a pissing match over a couple of tens of a multiple or something like that. Because ultimately that's a great asset, we know what we're going to be able to do with it downstream and those are going to be rounding errors or something when we look back. You mentioned as you were saying that one of the things I'd like to remind sellers too is that I'm sure you kind of educate them as you bring them on board but there's a lot of these businesses out there. In 2017 Amazon announced that there was 20 thousand 501 million dollar sellers so there's a lot of choices; even if we're only trying to buy 100 of them. Joe: Did you just read Walker's book? What's going on here? You just quoted him exactly. And maybe you guys are reading the same stuff. Walker Diebel has published a book called Buy than Build. RJ: Yeah. Joe: Yes Buy than Build, you're not quoting him you're just quoting- RJ: No, no, no, if you read my narrative you would hear that. But I think what I'm getting at though is don't be a pain in the ass because we've got that 400 businesses in 60 days and we put … in that first 60 days we put eight in the LOI and then we bought a few more and whatever. My point is that at some point in this when we had a couple of your early ones get difficult, I remember being … Keith and Chris, they're sitting there I'm listening to a conference call with a seller and a broker and I literally got up on the whiteboard and I got in giant letters and I wrote NEXT! and that became kind of a mantra. If you're not acting your job well … it's not even if you're a jerk or whatever but if you're not acting that you have your buttons up there's a lot of another choice out there. And the same goes if you're a really good asset there's a lot of choice for you to who you sell to as well. If you're a really well run business and you're dealing with a jerk tell your broker find me the next one. Joe: Well let me say this you're saying to the sellers don't be a pain in the ass. To the buyers, the seller does have choices. The first time I was on a conference call with Keith we were on the call late at night with Max. Max was over in Europe and Keith was so professional, so good, so likable to the point where when the call was done my seller wanted to Keith to be the buyer. He did calls with other buyers. He wanted Keith to be the buyer and 101 Commerce. That is what you want to accomplish buyers on those conference calls. You want that seller to go I choose you because you're not alone and the one that wants to buy a great business. And that's hopefully what a lot of folks listening that are owners of the Amazon FBA business, and ecommerce, and SaaS businesses, content business in general. It really doesn't matter if you want to build a great asset and build a great reputation for yourself so that guys like RJ and Keith and other great professional buyers are willing to pay you maximum value for your business in a seamless, painless, exciting process so everybody prospers at the end. RJ you're awesome. I look forward to working with you for the next 24 months no more because you're going to buy 93 in 24 months and then you're done right? RJ: Yeah [inaudible 00:49:05.2]. Joe: All right I'll work with you as long as you choose to work with us here at Quiet Light Brokerage. RJ: Or eventually at some point, I'm going to find somebody smarter than me to run this and then I'll come work with you guys. Joe: There you go. Well, it's a privilege talking with you. Thanks so much for your time. RJ: Awesome. Joe: I appreciate it. RJ: Okay, thanks, Joe. Take care.   Links and Resources: 101 Commerce  

Multiple streams of income bring more value to your business. One stream of income people often forget about is email marketing. Today's guest Ken Mahar, founder of Email Broadcast, has been in the sales and email marketing arena for many years. Business owners nowadays are quick to find an expert in other media marketing channels, but when it comes to email marketing, they often implement it unprofessionally, ignoring the potential for campaigns to generate income. Ken's company sets about optimizing your email marketing strategies by carefully preparing them months ahead and sticking with them, therefore nurturing that ongoing relationship with the buyer. Email marketing is the dinosaur of digital marketing tactics, yet remains one of the best. Ken has over 18 years of email marketing experience, going back almost to the dawn of the online space. Ken's experience, along with the expertise of his team, helps clients launch and maintain successful email marketing campaigns. Today he's sharing some of the mistakes people make and valuable ways to avoid those mistakes. Episode Highlights: Common mistakes people often commit with their email marketing strategies. What content planning takes place between the firm and a client before starting a campaign. How Ken helps clients bring a lead through the funnel. How often he refines the client's automation processes and tracks the campaign's performance. The importance of segmenting your audience. How personalization is important – to a degree. Tips for learning how to implement the technical side of an email campaign. Why outsourcing the email marketing side of your business can pay off. The importance of grabbing that email address! Why business should always offer something that people want (and not something they don't). Transcription: Joe: Multiple streams of income bring more value, right Mark? Mark: Absolutely. Joe: All right. One stream of income so many people forget about because it's hard, you have to learn things and it seems so old school is email marketing. But I understand you just had Ken from Email Broadcast on the podcast and he talked a lot about the benefits of email marketing. Mark: Yeah. One of the things he started out with in the call which I find to be just really poignant to so many entrepreneurs is we are really quick to hire people that are specialists in Facebook marketing or AdWords or different paid media but when it comes to email marketing a lot of us just say I'll take care of it. And then we make it like this after thought, right? It's kind of out there or is like okay we're going to send out a couple of broadcasts e-mails. In fact, the number of people I talked to that own businesses and we talk about their different marketing mix they tell me oh yeah you know if we would be using our email list that would be a huge opportunity for growth but we just haven't really done that yet. It's staggering the number of people that are doing this. And I think the reason why we are not necessarily using our email lists the way we should is because it's actually kind of tough to do. It's easy to send out a broadcast to our list of potential clients or customers that are signed up for email notifications. But it's really hard to actually sit down and say okay I'm going to segment that list. I'm going to set up automation sequences. I'm going to set up follow up sequences to these people. And I'm actually going to be intelligent about how I'm emailing my list. And so much of us just kind of give it this kind of head nod of like okay we're doing something with our email but it's not really optimized. And Ken from EmailBroadcast.com, that's what his group does entirely. They help people set up an email automation sequence, email broadcast like editorial calendar months in advance so that you're intelligently talking to your customers and your newsletter subscribers in a way that could actually nurture those relationships. One of the tidbits that he gave me which I absolutely loved was this idea of going to a conference. How many of us collect just dozens of contact cards at conferences and then what would we do with those? Maybe we send out an email after … maybe; most of us don't,  saying it was nice to meet you but what Ken does is he takes all of those and he drops them into a sequence with his email system. And so we talked a lot about these ways that we can look at email marketing in probably a more sophisticated way than most of us are doing. And if nothing else this is a pitch to saying you have an email list but you probably aren't using it the right way. And so I thought it'd be good to have him on since this is all his firm does to talk about some of the mistakes that they see in how entrepreneurs are running their email lists and what we can do to start to actually implement a few changes today and actually start utilizing that email list more appropriately. Joe: Yeah, I think people that are running their own internet businesses or buying one and wanting to grow it should seriously look at this. You know I've probably done a thousand valuations over the last six years and there are only a few … a tiny little handful, a fraction of a percent of people that focus on that and it makes a difference. Michael Jackness is one of them and he now travels around the country, actually sometimes the world giving presentations on his email marketing campaign that he does for one of his coloring books. It really is something that you can and should do and the customers actually when it's done right they appreciate it. When it's done wrong it's a problem. We are imperfect ourselves in this regard Mark. I think you've sent out some emails in the last few weeks where I get it and it says that it's … it's to me, to joe@quietlightbrokerage and still says it's dangerous, right? So doing it on your own even though it's coming from Quiet Light to a Quiet Light email address stuff like that can still happen so I think doing it on your own is … it's a gamble. So hiring somebody like Ken unless you've got the resources to really study it up and do it is a pretty smart idea. Mark: Yeah I mean just to bring it up into different sections; you have the technical side which is what we were running into. I had to setup the SPF and the DKIM records- Joe: What? Mark: Yeah right. Joe: I'm so glad you do that and not me. Mark: Exactly. So we had to go there but then you look at okay you have an email list but you don't just treat it as one big blob of people that you're talking to. You need to actually set up and start to segment that list. And then how are you actually interacting with these people. These things multiply. So if you segment your list into four segments which isn't that much. And then you would consider okay these four segments are going to get distinct emails and there's going to be an eight email sequence between this four segments. Now you have to write 32 emails in order to get all of these sequences in place. And then you have to measure and go back and do these and continually improve. It's a lot of work and honestly the fact that we're doing a lot of this on our own as entrepreneurs, is it a good idea? Maybe … maybe not; maybe it's the time to hire somebody out but I think if nothing else think about it. Think about what you're doing and how you're using your email list. Are you treating this audience as one big blob of people and sending them all the same message? If so you're leaving a lot of money on the table. Joe: I agree. If you can get a 2 or 3% lift in your discretionary earnings because of email marketing as long as it's a profitable lift; it's important. That adds a lot of value to your company. Jackness I believe you a little 50% of his revenue for his website comes from his email marketing campaign so that's something serious to consider for people that have the right type of product. So let's go to it, let's see what Ken has to say. Mark: Sounds great. Mark: All right Ken thanks so much for having me. This is Ken Mahar. Did I pronounce that right Ken? Ken: Yup. Mark: Awesome. Thanks for joining me. You come from EmailBroadcast.com so this is going to be an episode really focusing on email habits, some of the mistakes people make with email marketing, and we'll also wrap into this episode hopefully things that maybe what you should do from sell side to be able to prepare for selling your business and making sure that that part of the business has good opportunity and is well set up. But let's start out real quick, Ken, if you can provide everyone just a background or a bio on you. Ken: How much time do we have? I'll try to keep it short I guess. I'm Ken Mahar. I'm the founder and CEO of Email Broadcast. I've been running this company for 18 years so back before email marketing was really even a thing was when I got started. I actually have a sales background and I used email marketing for my own sales efforts. I found it to be tremendously helpful and successful. Itched it to some other businesses that I had worked for before, I'm saying you should guys really do this and then they're like we don't know how to do it so I started serving them. So yeah my background in sales is everything from retail to business to business. And then I got into inside sales for a high tech firm, I took over a territory. It was 11 states. We sold direct and through the channel. So I've kind of done everything there is in the sales arena. And the reason that I am still running Email Broadcast is because I found that email marketing is one of the best channels to impact sales. And so I kind of combined my expertise in the sales arena along with delivering email marketing from my entire team. We have the technical aspect; the writer's, the operations and all that stuff and then I do my part on the sales and the strategy part. So I guess that's a quick background on me. Mark: You've had the company for 18 years? Ken: Yeah. Mark: Holy cow man that's ancient in the world of internet businesses. You've seen a lot. Ken: Yeah. In fact I thought about naming my business Constant Contact or they ever existed and I just thought that sounds a little too aggressive so I didn't do that. But Email Broadcast is a pretty good name. Mark: Constant Contact aka we're always going to be in your inbox is really really what we're saying. Ken: Exactly. Mark: All right; pretty cool. You've seen a lot, 18 years is a long time. I've been online for about 20 years myself … actually, 2018; 20 years. I've been online for 20 years. I started my first site back in 1998 so that's a really long time; cool. All right, email marketing; there is a lot that goes on with email marketing and I want to get from you some of the common mistakes that you see people do with email marketing. Everybody knows that you should be doing it. I know here at Quiet Light we recommend pretty heavily that people establish a good list and use this as a channel to acquire more customers. Primarily because out of all the things, all the customer acquisition channels that are available out there email is one of the only ones that you actually own and have the ability to control. Google you can't control. AdWords you can't control. Facebook you can't control. Amazon you definitely can't control. Email you can, so let's sort out some of the common mistakes that you see people make with their email marketing strategies. Ken: Sure. Yeah, I think strategy is a good place to start. I think the big picture that I see people make mistakes around is thinking that email is about them. And what I mean by that is they look at email as just another channel for them to promote and to use their sales messages. When in my mind email is more of a relationship builder and a two way communication channel. And so I see a lot of people these people do a lot of mistakes made … in a strategy where people say okay let's talk about what we want to do in our next sale and our next promotion and us, us, us, us, us, and it just becomes a channel for commercials. And if you think about it email is a media channel. And in media channels you should have content that people are interested and excited to hear; whether it's educational or inspirational or whatever. And then you might have a commercial message every now and then. But if you are only commercials how long would you listen to that radio station? And people treat their email like that. They just promote, promote, promote, and they don't add any value to their audience's lives. So one of the big paradigm shifts that our clients go through is to realize this isn't about you, this is about your audience. What do they want to learn? What are they into? What inspires them and to get them to think in that perspective. So I think that's a pretty big mistake. What else? I think the second biggest strategy mistake I see is that people think that copy writing is email marketing. And they say oh yeah we need to get an email out, we haven't had one for a while. Let's get one out today and let's make it really good. And that's just a terrible, terrible strategy because the chances you'd be coming up with a great idea, creating great, well written, well researched content; actually having something so valuable to your audience that they're willing to forward it to someone … you know one of their friends, getting your … making sure that every single link works, making sure that it's grammatically perfect all like in 24 hours is just a recipe for disaster. So we look at it and go you should be planning this stuff out weeks or months ahead. My team is already done with November and we're scheduling December messages right now. And we've been working on the November stuff for a while already. So planning ahead and having like an overarching strategy is a big mistake that people make. Mark: Let me go back actually to your first point. Mark: Yeah. Mark: We had Mike Jackness on the podcast several episodes ago and he talked a little bit about their email marketing that they do. They see crazy open rates of 30% plus on their stuff and they're emailing their members almost every single day. So it's a pretty heavy and intense email marketing strategy but really the key behind what he's doing really isn't a surprise. And he's trying to offer ridiculous value with every single email so that people look forward to it. And your point about making it all about you, there's a great BuzzSumo article where they analyzed 100 million headlines to see what got shared the most. I love this blog post. I actually go to it once every few months just to revisit some of the concepts in this. But one of the big things that they do there and I found that these headlines is that headlines that get shared, the headlines they get opened, the emails that get opened are the ones that promise something to the user. Who is the person that's actually opening this? Is there a promise in that headline? And when you decide with this headline I'm going to promise something to the user that's a much better reason to open it up. Nobody really cares about your big news for the day all that much but they do care about what they're going to get if they're going to open that email. Ken: Yeah, it's funny when people put on their email marketing hat they're like … they disconnect from their own mind about what do I want in my own inbox, right? Mark: Right. Ken: It's something that I would really appreciate in value and go wow that was really good. And in fact, that's kind of our litmus test where we ask ourselves is this so good that you would forward it to a friend? And if that's a yes then you're probably on the right track. Mark: Right, so you got to start with that value prop, make it into something about the other person and let your subscriber know what are you going to get from this is email. If you take the time to open it if you're going to take the time to click it if there's a link in there you've got to get something in return and you got to make that promise up front. I'm sorry to step all over what you're saying. Ken: No, it's okay, and I think … and this is a really important point. So it's you take a page out of Gary Vaynerchuk's book right? Jab, jab, jab, right hook. Of course you're doing email because you have a strategy in mind and the strategy is you want a return on your investment right? But you need to think about the ratio, and 3:1 is a good ratio. Do you give, give, give between each ask or are you ask, ask, ask, ask, ask and maybe give once in a while, right? Mark: Right. Let's talk about that strategy of you guys just finished November and for a reference, for people that … because this probably won't actually air until maybe first day of November, it's October 25th today. So we're not even done with October. You guys have finished out your planning for your clients all the way through November. When you're planning that out are you looking at sort of like this rhythm to the emails as far as … like you said give, give, give, sell, give, give, give, ask, or is it also kind of moving along with holidays? What sort of planning are you doing on behalf of your customers to plan that far out in advance? Ken: Right. Yeah, so that actually opens up another great strategy idea that I think people blow it on. One of the first things we do when we onboard a client is we come up with … in fact I got a meeting in about an hour on this where we come up with 50 to 100 different content ideas before we even get this campaign started. So we have this giant treasure trove of content ideas. Once we learned about the audience we think we know who they are. We think about what would be important to them. And we come up with a lot of ideas. Some of them are just plain nuts but we document everything; we put it in a document. And so as we work with our clients, the November emails aren't just planned, they're actually planned, executed and already scheduled. So they're in the can just waiting for the days to tick by until they get released. So we actually started working in November last month. So yeah probably another big mistake that people make beyond if like not thinking of content ideas ahead is not planning for email work. And it is weird people will just kind of go oh dude I tried to sneak it in between something else because that is blocking out real time and saying this is an important part of my business, it's a huge channel for me. I've got to schedule time for this and they continuously under estimate how long it takes to write brilliant copy, have a copy edited, come up with great images, get it scheduled, think about how they can enhance it. And it's one of those things that if you put it aside for a second and then you come back to it you have fresh new ideas, a fresh perspective and you can always make it a little bit better. So scheduling that time, getting on a rhythm, and doing it ahead of time is big paradigm shift for a lot of people. Mark: Yeah let me ask you, I don't want to divert too much from kind of the thread we have going here but in the world of email marketing, we have a couple of different concepts as far as when people receive emails. Well if you start off at the very first contact with somebody who just joins your email list they might automatically be put into a campaign where they're going to get different emails at certain times versus your … maybe your entire block of subscribers where you might just be sending out broadcast to those subscribers on a regular basis. I want to ask you a little bit about that. How much emphasis do you like to put on one versus the other? In other words if I come to EmailBroadcast.com and you have a lead magnet there and downloadable resource or something else, how long are you going to put me in a pre-defined process where you're going to lead me through an arc and trying I guess funnel marketing right here but bringing you down that funnel to a certain point versus taking me out of that campaign where I've got this ready written emails that everybody else has received earlier and now I'm in your general kind of flow into your general broadcasts. Ken: Yeah well, I'll speak to exactly what's happening right now on our campaign. So we have a year-long champion going on right now that is a story format. We have some brilliant writers … in fact actual published and award winning authors and so we've tapped that and we've written out a fictional story about a guy who owns an RV lot and has a huge competitor move into town and is trying to figure out how to handle it with his marketing. And so right now when you sign up on our email list we kind of thought of it as kind of a Netflix situation where you binge on episodes until you get caught up. So right now when you sign up you get an email from us once a week until you're caught up and then we do a monthly broadcast. So I'm not sure that completely answers your question but it still kind of depends on when you join but I think we're in episode eight or nine right now. So for seven weeks in a row, you would get the next chapter of the story and then once you're caught up it comes out monthly. Mark: Yeah, that makes sense. So it sounds like again when you're planning out your broadcast schedule here for November and December as you go get into those months you really need to think about the fact the person that's been with you now through that time they've already been through that. In this case a year-long journey, that's pretty significant and they've already had that exposure to your company. And so you're going to write and create that general broadcast strategy with that in mind that these are not people completely new to who you are. Ken: Right and then what we've done is we did have an interruption in the story, like a commercial interruption like the old school radio shows or something. But we had a message on like July that was like hey here are a couple of things you might think about and there were something promotional. There was a blog post. There was a different value ad but it was just kind of a little interruption in the normal sequence. So if you think about it we actually planned … the emails that are going out on November and December we planned last year; last fall when we outlined our storyline and figured out what chapters were going to go when. And so right now we're working on our 2019 campaign which is going to be all different. We've been working on it for a month and a half or so and we're kind of finalizing our strategy around that and so we hit the ground running in January. Mark: Yeah so much of marketing and I don't think really matters what the format is whether it's AdWords or Amazon Ads or email marketing, so much marketing seems to be this idea of measuring, refining, repeating. So you're going back and you're taking a look at what worked, what didn't work, you're testing things against each other. How often is your team if you have a client on board and you've drafted this this kind of initial sequence that people are going to get when they enter into one of the many different funnels that you have set up. How often are you going back and refining that for them? Ken: Well, we look at it monthly. It's part of our process where … it's on our checklist to go and review the automation for instance. So if we've built an onboarding series or a welcome series for a client we look at it monthly and we kind of track the numbers and we start and we look at it. If it's not performing to our expectations then we'll think about tweaking it. And so we'll dig in in the messages and think okay what are people on the activity that we are getting what are people most interested in? Which of these has the best open rate? What clicks are … what things are people clicking on and maybe we should refine the message a little bit. So we look at it once a month. There's a danger at looking at it too much. It's like looking at your stocks every single two hour period, things go up and down and so you want to avoid the small sample bias and look at it over time but we look at it monthly. Mark: Okay. Let's talk a little bit more about some of the mistakes people make. I'm going to throw one in and then you tell me if I'm spot on or if I'm off base here. I would say one mistake that I see is people taking a one size fits all approach to their email list. So everybody gets the exact same emails regardless where they came from. Ken: Yeah and a good example of that is we are on boarding a new client in the cosmetic medicine practice which serves 90% females but we are … and so part of our strategy is that we're going to ask people to identify their gender when they sign up for our email list. And if they do say that they're male we're going to have a completely different first message for them making them feel very welcomed as a man in what is otherwise a woman dominated consumer market. And we think that's going to be a big deal. It's going to grow their practice through male audience without much effort at all. So yeah not segmenting your audiences is … you're right it's another big mistake. People think oh I'm just going to broadcast to everybody. Okay well, there are certain messages that are good for that and that maybe most of the time but really you should be thinking about your email lists thinking about what segments can I target. For instance, another example we have a large furniture retailer in Louisiana, Arkansas in Texas and we came up with this idea that we should target the people who have their private label credit card. And we also identified another sub market of people who are on their … so private label credit card is for people with pretty good credit and then they also have a kind of a buy here pay here market. So we get a different message to each of those segments. It turned out combined they were only 7.8% of the list but in one message to each of them we ended up driving $430,000 in new sales for the weekend for just that one segment. So by targeting a message just specifically to them with a specific offer that was really relevant; that we had huge response. Mark: That personalization is a huge issue right now. I saw one thing that was really cool. It was somebody who is qualifying their email subscribers before they signed up through a quiz. And the quiz was kind of fun and it was actually in the cosmetics field. So it was what's the shape of your face? And it just had cartoon characters. It wasn't offensive or anything like that. What's the shape of your face? What's the tone of your skin? And they went through probably about six, seven questions but then you were able to break out into this really cool like super segmented this is a female with this skin tone with this shape of face with this size of eyes this sort of thing and you can really cater the messaging. And this was more than … they were doing email marketing but also some other recommendations that is super super cool. Ken: Yeah, the danger around that … well, not the danger but the recommendation is don't ask for anything you're not actually going to use. So a couple of things around like I see a blast for last name in their email sign up forms and I think that's like one step too far of getting a little too personal a little too quickly off the bat. And unless you'd actually have a use for somebody's last name why are you asking for it? Even … but also people take that in the wrong direction as they say here sign up for our email list and all they ask for is the email address. Okay well, that's not enough, right? It's like at least get their first name because if you don't you're giving up on a huge personalization opportunity with putting peoples name in the subject line and addressing them by name and actually creating a relationship. When you're saying give me your email address what you're really saying is I'm going to blast you like I do everybody else on my list and I don't really care who you are or anything about you. So there's a check for your listeners if you're only collecting email address you're doing it wrong. Mark: Yeah and I'm going to make a plea here as well, this is turning into my great show here but one of the things I can't stand with email marketers when they're … when I get on a list is the hey buddy buddy sort of approach that comes without me even knowing who you are. Like there's a point where you got one of the so corporate and stiff to the point where it just feels stale and separate. But if you come in and pretend like we went to college together that's equally off putting to me. I want to have somewhere in the middle where I can get to know you a little bit and again kind of test out to see do you have value to offer. But I guess that's where that copywriter comes in, having a copywriter who's done thousands of these emails before. Ken: Yeah, and I would actually say that I would rather somebody do that if that's really their authentic voice and that's really who they are where they want to be buddies with you and if you're not ready for that then fine get the hell off my list. I think that's a better approach than trying to please everybody. You know I'd dig into authenticity around email marketing, it's one of the things that we really drive home with our clients is to say I want people to know who you really are not who you're pretending to be. So if you've only got six people on your team let's celebrate that. You're feisty and small and responsive and adaptive versus trying to pretend like you're some mega-corporation. But yeah everybody's different and you have to realize that. So really you should concentrate on attracting the people that you want to attract. Mark: Yeah. Ken: So if that's important to somebody that they'd be buddies with you and you didn't like that then maybe they did themselves a favor by not winning your business; who knows. Mark: Yeah, absolutely the authenticity is definite. I see sometimes with these people also lack of authenticity trying to win me over by being a little hokey. But if it is authentic to me then well so be it. The rest of the people buy me dinner first. So I want to shift gears really heavily here because I want to get to this before our time is up and I want to talk about the technical side of this. Ken: Yeah. Mark: This is just the hairy issue. There's a lot of systems out there. We use drip marketing at Quiet Light Brokerage. I like the system but we also have an external CRM which means we need to get these two things to talk to each other. What tips would you have for people on that technical side? I know that's really an open ended question but I'm going to have to throw it in your part as far as just the tips of working with the technical side. How much effort should people be putting into that sort of that technical side setup? Ken: Yeah, this will tie back into the strategy question too. One of the most under-utilized aspects of email marketing is the use of automation. When you can define what your sales process is and know where people are falling out of your funnel or use an automation series to take people from not step A to step B but from step D to step E. You know there are all kinds of opportunities to use email to kind of leverage your time. Basically having the platform do what you would do if you had a million hours in the day and all you did was write emails all day. Setting up the platform to do that is important. But you're right that does take some technical integration stuff. So my tips, I would say work with the bigger players in the market is probably a good tip because they've been around for a while. They likely have the integrations for some of the bigger … so if you're trying to choose an email marking platform and a CRM go … I wouldn't go with a guy that's brand new yesterday because he probably doesn't have a very well developed API and it's not a plug and play situation. So if you're trying to save yourself some headaches go with bigger players in the market that have been established that have an API that already potentially connect. Look at the integration possibilities. But I'd also say that it's generally worth it, right? There may be some pain involved in trying to figure it out but don't give up. Get help, hire somebody and figure out how to get those things integrated because it can really make a big difference for you. You mentioned the CRM right? So we've got ours dialed in so I can fill out a single form and it populates both my email marketing to start a drip series but it also sends that exact same data to my CRM to save me from double entry. So yeah integration is the key. There is a lot to integrate; getting your sign up forms cracked on your website, getting the email thing dialed in, connecting your CRM. We're going to be connecting in a medical records system for this latest client that we did and getting an API expert on that and we have that in house so we do not have that problem but it's important. Mark: Yeah, so when we get into the actual set up of these things … I have another company that I own, I know those folks that listen regularly probably know about it but we use a lot of automation on our email side there. And even with that I mean you talked about the multiplying effect here, right? Let's say that what you are going to segment your audience into just three different segments and then you're going to set up automation sequences with a series of 10 emails in each. Well now you're writing out 30 different emails with different email copy and on top of that you have your broadcast emails that are going to go out. And on top that may be some other campaigns and you have to try to make sure that these things don't duplicate where people are receiving multiple emails because they're accidentally subscribed to two different campaigns within our system and then figuring out how to make all the technology work together. So this is the part where I'm going to just make this quick pitch for the stuff that you guys do over at EmailBroadcast.com which is you guys do all of this. You are the full service sort of provider for this email automation of marketing right? Ken: Yeah, I have a team of people and I think that's the key thing because each of my team members is a specialist. So I have an engineer that thinks in bits and bytes. I have copywriters. I have a sales strategist which is me. I have an operations manager to help keep things on track and then an account coordinator. We designated an account coordinator for each account so they truly understand who our client is, what their business is, what their goals are, what they're trying to accomplish, and can really feel like a member of their team. So in effect, we are an email marketing department. Imagine a Fortune500 firm that had an entire department to handle email marketing. Well, we are that but for much smaller businesses who can get us for the cost of a part time employee. So yeah we handle everything from strategy to the copy writing, to the design, to the engineering, the mobile optimization, integrating it with the CRM, integrating it with medical record systems, setting up all the automation. Making sure things aren't overlapping and you have people getting multiple stuff and somebody looking at it; somebody thinking about your campaign a month in advance. Thinking about the seasonal stuff like Q4 for us is heavy so we've been thinking about Q4 since July about how we're going to get ready, which of our clients are going to want to do extra messages. That's the value we add. We're the people that you wish you had an entire department … and I think this is a different … I think this is an important point because some people go okay great this email something I'm going to outsource and I'm going to look for that one guy. Well, I've been doing this for 18 years and I'm not even that one guy. I'm not … I can't be the best copywriter, the greatest sales strategist, the engineer to integrate everything, the operations manager to get it all done. I mean maybe that person is out there but you're certainly not going to get them for a song. And so I think dividing the labor … you know divide and conquer and having each person in a team that's used to working together is a great solution. And a lot of people don't realize that this kind of solution is out there. They think that email marketing is something they have to do on their own even though they struggle. They've written the messages a bit inconsistent, the branding is not where they like it, they're doing stuff last minute, they know they're abusing their audience's trust, they have low engagement, they're like hell and they know there weren't any other options. So we are out there. Mark: Yeah, fantastic. Regardless of whether or not somebody is going to use an outsource solution like what you guys offer which would be like an outsourced email department as you said it is something that I think people need to really pay attention to that aspect of the business. And you're right, I look at a lot of businesses … I look at the health of a lot of businesses and see where they're putting their time and efforts. And sometimes I see this really just beautifully built out Facebook campaigns, this really beautifully optimized Ad-words accounts, but it's only been on a rare occasion where I see that applied in the email world. And when I do see it applied though it tends to be sort of a cash machine, right? All these other customer acquisition strategies are able to just funnel in there. And once they funnel in there those people are in because the systems are set up and ready to go. It does take time to plan. It does take time to refine. It does take time to go back there but this can be one of the biggest customer acquisition channels for pretty much any business that's out there. So I think the work that you guys are doing is awesome. I love some of the tips that you had in there. I know that there are a lot more tips that we didn't cover. I mean on one of our conversations you talked about hey what are you doing with the conference cards that you get? Do you actually follow up with them and is it just kind of one quick follow up or do you drop them into a sequence of some sort where they end up getting a series of emails; that's brilliant. There you go, look at that you- Ken: I just attended a conference so I'm holding up a fan of contacts that I have and I … you know we walk or talk. I put these people into a segment in our email list and we've already emailed them twice which is more than anybody else who went to that conference has done. We have a third message already scheduled so yeah that and we advise people about their offline activities. Like we have customers … I had this customer one time, he literally interrupted my … our phone call to take a call. I only heard his part of the conversation. He sat there for five minutes helping this person out, they sell this rooftop tent deals and I'm like how many conversations like that do you have a day and he's like I don't know 15, 20. I go how many people are you getting emails from? Zero. I'm like wow okay huge opportunity for you. Ask for their email address after you just spent five minutes helping somebody. They're going to give it to you. Put them on your list and now you've got a chance to market to them and then they'll buy a tent. So yeah there's a lot to email marketing and I hope your audience takes it to heart and really goes after it and figures out how can I add value? How can I make this amazing? And don't worry about the immediate payoff. Trust me it'll it will pay off in the end. What can I offer people that come to my website to actually get on my email list? If you're saying sign up for my email okay you need to rethink that. What value is there? People don't know what your email is. They probably haven't defined how often it goes out. They don't know what they're going to get in return and so sign up for our newsletter you know who wants to do that? But if you can give me the top five tips in selling my business in the next year oh okay yeah that's why I came to your website, that's what I want to know about. So that's the kind of thing you need to offer. Mark: Awesome so if people have questions about this or just want to bounce ideas off with you how can they reach you? Ken: Yeah, ken@emailbroadcast.com the phone number is 805-316-3201. And if you want a little branding tip or just have some fun call that number just to listen to our auto-responder. It's pretty funny that we put together. You could go to our website at EmailBroadcast.com and on there there's a pretty easy to find that you can schedule a 20 minute call with me free of charge just to be asked about your email. I can give you a couple of ideas, find out if … work out something that might be right for you but kind of get your head in the right direction. So hopefully that helps. Mark: Yeah absolutely. I'm actually going to call that number because that's a pretty good tease to get them to call the number. Well put links to that on the show notes page so feel free to go to the show notes page and you'll be able to see those links as well as contact information for you Ken. Thank you so much for coming on. I really appreciate it. Ken: Thank you, Mark, it's been a pleasure and I hope everybody here is reinvigorated to do great email marketing. That's why I exist in the world, to get people to up their game around email marketing. Good luck. Links and Resources: Email Ken Mahar Email Broadcast Website Call Email broadcast @ 805.316.3201  

What exactly defines an influencer in the marketing space? Do you need Oprah in order to sell your product? These days the term influencer is used so much as the concept spreads to become more of a “scope of influence” rather than just a celebrity endorsement. There are all kinds of influencers and within any industry, there are influential people out there, it is just a matter of finding them. When it comes to buying and selling a business, a company can add value to their business by diversifying their sources of traffic. The more diversity in traffic, the more the risk goes down for the buyer and the value goes up for the seller. Today's guest, Shane Barker, teaches the “Personal Branding – How To Be An Influencer” course at UCLA. He's a seasoned marketing consultant, who for the past several years has become an expert in using influencer marketing to boost sales for brands. Shane believes that nowadays companies have got to run an influencer campaign just like any other facet of the funnel in order to maximize their brand's reach. Episode Highlights: What exactly is influencer marketing? Finding that niche person for the product. Identifying real vs. fake followers and how feedback needs to be weeded. Measuring real engagement over just follower numbers. What is a good engagement rate to look out for. The influencer marketing software tools that are out there and how to use them. Aligning the influencer with the product. What is the typical cost per influencer? How can you track the influencer's impact? Why Influencer marketing works well. Tips and tricks on how to find influencers in your sphere. Cheaper alternatives to hiring a consultant to help with your IM campaign. Transcription: Mark: So this past weekend I was at Rhodium Weekend and we've talked a lot about Rhodium here on the podcast. It was out in Las Vegas and somebody that we know, somebody who's been on the podcast Shakil Prasla, a good friend of Quiet Light Brokerage happened to run into another Shakil; Shaquille O'Neal. And he has a great photo of himself on Facebook with Shaquille O'Neal and he told me and he said that Bobby Brobine called his attention and so Shakil just shouted out and said hey we share the same name and sure enough that called his attention and then resulted in Shakil our friend having a picture with Shaq; really really cool. It's always fun to be able to reach out to people who are well known and have some influence and obviously, this is something we can definitely use in business as well as in we are in a whole are of this in business and marketing called influencer market something I haven't done a lot of. Joe, have you done much influencer marketing? Joe: You do it all the time Mark. We do … you just did it. You just did it for Rhodium Weekend. How many people that have signed up for Rhodium Weekend have gone to Chris's centurica.com website for due diligence because you're an influencer and you talked about it? Mark: But I'm not on the same level of Shaq so you know. Joe: Oh I don't know. I don't know. Mark: I'm definitely not as big as Shaq in more ways than other knows because the guy's a big dude. I've seen companies use influential marketing before and it's crazy; the impact that you have on your business when you find the right mix. Joe: Well you know a lot of folks think influencer marketing is … I've had a couple of listings where Dr. Oz mentioned the product or the ingredient and the revenue went … sort of skyrocketed. I sold one earlier this year where the product was named one of Oprah's favorite things, that's like the golden ring. That was back in like 2008 and they still get traffic and revenue from it and it's 2018. So that is what a lot of people think about in regards to influencer marketing like you and Shaq. And by the way, Shakil call out that was a great photo thank you for that I showed my kids. But that's not really just the influencer marketing that I think a lot of our audience should be thinking about. We've talked about it all the time when you've got multiple channels of revenue, multiple channels of traffic it brings the risk that you're going to lose business down and increases the value of your business; the lower the risk the higher the value. Influencer marketing should be another channel. The next generation buyers people they're … my kids, I have 2 teenage boys, I cannot get them off of Instagram watching videos. My son, 17 years old, he learns everything. The computer I'm on right now he learned how to build it on YouTube through influencers. They're all about influencer marketing. So the next generation is going to be just that. We had Shane Barker on the podcast, that's who you're about to hear folks. He's a UCLA professor. He teaches a class on influencer marketing at UCLA. He's a consultant and he helps people. He'll take over their campaigns and he'll just tell you how to do it. He had some great advice in terms of tools to use to track your influencer engagements; how to find them, how to measure their success, and what to do in terms of maybe interviewing them and negotiating with them and writing up contracts with influencers and all these different things. The one thing I didn't touch up on was workload but he said that when you frame it up right and you put the right package together in terms of your plan through a consultant so you don't waste a whole lot of money it can then be handed off to a VA who should be able to run with it fairly easily. Mark: That's pretty cool. So is this going to help me get Shaq to a certain point in Quiet Light? Joe: Hmm … Shaquille O'Neal, no not Shaquille O'Neal but Shakil Prasla yes. He's already an influencer [inaudible 00:05:01.2] is what he is. Mark: I would rather have Shakil Prasla … actually, that's kind of a lie, sorry Shakil. All right let's get to it. This is actually a huge topic. I know this is going to be like the next big thing in marketing and this is one of those areas that people don't really know a lot about. Some people are doing it well. They're making a lot of money because of it. They're building their brands because of it. It'd be great to unlock this so why don't we go ahead and listen to it [inaudible 00:05:25.8]. Joe: Yeah I do. You've got to think about it just like an Amazon sponsored ad campaign, just like your content development for an SEO, just like your Google Ad Words campaign. You've got to run an influencer campaign the same way and Shane really talks about that in detail so let's go to it. Mark: Awesome. Joe: Hey everyone its Joe Valley from Quiet Light Brokerage. Today we're going to talk about influencer marketing with Shane Barker. Shane Barker is an expert in the space. How are you doing today Shane? Shane: I'm doing awesome Joe. How are you doing man? Joe: I'm good. You know back in my day there was no influencer marketing. It was pay-per-click and write good content and Google will reward you. Of course, my day wasn't that long ago. I sold my business back in 2010 but the world has changed dramatically since then and it constantly changed and you're on top of that and you are at the forefront of it which is one of the reasons that I will call it out right now why you haven't written a book about it yet because it's constantly changing right? Shane: Yeah that's the deal. We talked a little bit before the podcast started today. The thing is it is an evolving space. I mean it started off back in the day and I said back in the day as we kind of joke around about that but you know I'm doing this for a while but it's really word of mouth marketing right? Which back in the day the presentations that I do I always talked about like as an example would be like Tupperware. That was kind of like Helen who is a lady that she would have these parties and have everybody over and she was influential in the area because everybody loved Helen. She was a great wife and she'd have beautiful little kids running around. Everyone wants to be like Helen and they'll all come too. They'd have a few drinks and the next thing you know they're buying Tupperware right? So it's that influential type thing, that's how it kind of all started and then obviously we evolved to Beats by Dre and some other ones like that where you see this people wearing the headphones and they would go and give them the free product. And you see all these athletes that are wearing this stuff and I mean obviously they sold I don't know it's like 3 or 4 billion dollars to Apple so you know it's obviously some- Joe: I guess it's been around a while because celebrities have been endorsing products for years, for decades and they get paid for it. Shane: Absolutely. Joe: So that's influencer marketing right there let's do this. So Shane, I didn't tell you before we started recording we don't do fancy introductions. Obviously, we're a couple of minutes in already. Shane: Yeah. Joe: Can you tell those folks that are listening about your background, what you do, how you do it, and where you come from? Shane: Yeah absolutely. So I reside out of Sacramento California but I'm in Los Angeles quite a bit because I teach at UCLA. I teach a class called Personal Branding and how to be an influencer. It's a quarterly system so I do how to be an influencer on one side and the other side on how to work with influencers. We work with brands down there as well. So yes I've been in the digital space for 20 something years. I really jumped in the digital space because I had my own business. So it was one of those like hey I want to bootstrap this thing and I didn't have a lot of capital. This was a long time ago. I've got a company called Hotpad that I had a patent on it; a reusable heat pack. I had a cool patent on it and so I had to do everything. I had to do the logo, I had to do the website and this was this is probably 15 plus years ago. So we were jumping on the internet, there really was no SEO. We just put something up and something went on the 1st page. We didn't know how it happened or what happened. We were just excited that that was happening. There was no … there was just nothing, there was not a lot of software, there was … we were grinding this thing out and it was kind of wild wild west. And so I jumped into it and was working with this … once again probably 15 years ago on called getafreelancer.com and now it's freelancer.com. So I was stating hey, listen I want to manage projects and I want to go work with people that know how to do these certain things that I didn't necessarily know how to do. I was … at that time I was in school and I'd already owned my own business. Just as I owned a bar and I had done some stuff. It took me 10 years to graduate not because I wasn't smart. Well, I don't know … maybe because I wasn't smart but maybe the bigger the reason was is because I want to travel and do this and I had my own businesses. So I jumped into that and like I said for about 10 years I owned a bar and did some other fun stuff; all offline type businesses. And then when I was doing Hotpad the reusable heatpad company I decided to go back to school and that's when I really started doing outsourcing and kind of figuring out how to work with other people and I've been doing that ever since. I mean right now I have a 31 person team that's all over the world. I don't have them … yeah, I have all like project management software or like all front stuff in place. And so I have like where I'm doing this interview today is I have an office here in Sacramento that's strictly for content creation; for us putting content together. And my team is once again all over the place so they're … so it's kind of awesome. So that's kind of catapulting me out once again where I'm at today. We do heavy content marketing, we do heavy influencer marketing. And then I'll kind of talk about my story a little later about like how I jumped into influencer marketing and all that. But I consider myself like a brand and an influencer specialist and then also a digital strategist. Because it's just that's what I've done for so long when … it started off on SEO and then obviously a lot of social stuff and now we do influencer marketing. We're always trying to … the new stuff that comes along it always seems to knock on my door whether I want to do something new or not when it comes to marketing. So that's kind of where I'm at today. Joe: Well, our audience is full of people just like you and people that want to be like you; those that are leaving the corporate world. For influencer marketing, I want to go through some of the steps that you teach in that class at UCLA and the process. But let's 1st define it what exactly is the influencer marketing in your view? Shane: Yeah so influencer marketing in which I said a little bit earlier is in the back in the day it was influencer marketing was not called influencer marketing but really it was working with celebrities and getting somebody that had some kind of influence because they're an actor, or celebrity, or some kind of singer, or something like that and you ask them to endorse your product. But usually, it was for the Nike's, the Toyota's, these bigger brands because you had to have a big budget. And the deal was that you were going to do some kind of a commercial, maybe sometimes radio, but mainly a commercial where you would go and this person would say oh my god I have this kind of car this, I love my … whatever my [inaudible 00:10:57.3], I love my Toyota, I love my Nike shoes whatever right, usually bigger budgets and once again somebody that has a really really high influence. Well, last in the 5, 6, 7 years you've seen this switch of where really anybody can have influence. You don't have to have … you don't have to be an actor; you don't have to be a famous person to do this. And you'll see this obviously on YouTube, Instagram, Snap … sometimes on Twitter and then on Facebook as well. The idea is that an influencer is anybody that has influence over their sphere … over their community. So as an example you Joe obviously are an influencer because you have influence over your podcast and what we have here. So that makes you an influencer because people follow you, they listen to your podcast religiously, and they go and they get great information from it and they go and apply that in the real world. So if you were to say hey guys this is some software that I use and I've used it for the last 6 months. I've tested it its absolutely awesome then guess what probably a lot of people in your podcast are going to go hey that sounds like an awesome product. If Joe uses it then I should use it. And so everybody has this type of influence and we look at this. So as Instagram as an example I look at people, let's say you have 5,000 followers or 10,000 people I go well are those influencers? They absolutely are. I mean if I have 5,000 or 10,000 engaged … a heavily engaged audience I would much rather work with that person let's say as an example yoga mat. I'm a yoga instructor and you as a brand you're selling yoga whatever quick bed or something. And so you come to me, I would much rather work with a yoga instructor that has a 5 or 10,000 following that's heavily engaged than somebody who has a million or 2 million or 5 million. Because really at the end of the day what … in the beginning of influencer marketing was like hey I want to go with the people with the highest following right? They have a milion followers like that's how … it's who I have to work with because of the fact that you look at all those eyeballs. But the issue is this … and we all realize this thru marketing is that back in the day it was like if I can get a million visitors that'd be awesome. It's not the amount of visitors it's the quality of the visitors; the type of traffic that you're getting from that. So same thing with influencer marketing you want to really niche down and find the person that is really going to be best for your product. The reason why and we'll go onto this later but the reason why there's these issue with influencers and fake followers is because brands were paying influencers on the amount of followers they had. So you get a situation where they say, Shane, if you have 10,000 followers I'll give you a 1,000 bucks. If you get 25,000 I give you 2,000. But if you have 100,000, my friend, I'll give you 10 grand and then guess what happens an influencer goes man how do I get to that quicker? How do I get to that mark faster because obviously I'm doubling, tripling, quadrupling my money? Well, then what happens is now they're doing something where they're adding fake followers and doing some stuff that's obviously unethical to be able to get to the next price point. Joe: How do you measure engagement over followers? Shane: Yeah that's the deal and it's funny when you talk about back in the day because it literally when I talk to people I've influenced I mean I always talk about back in the day that makes it sound like we're like 100 or something; like I went to school with Jesus or something or Moses or like I was on the boat or something. But you know for us it's like when I look at this like we were doing influencer marketing 5, 6, 7 years ago there was no software right? So there was nothing out there to really … I mean what we would really do is we would go and try to find these influencers by search. Like go on Instagram and look up hash tags and stuff like that which is still relevant today and we still do that say obviously. And we would go and we'd put these profiles together and I would manually go look at them. Because that was it, like that was my … an engagement for me was not necessarily a number but it was more … we ended up coming up with an equation over time that we looked at of followers, engagements, likes and stuff like that. So we had a little bit of an equation or some kind of … and we call that algorithm because it wasn't that crazy but where we would go and take a look at that. And we would just have these Excel spreadsheets that I would just take tons of notes and we would do all this kind of crazy stuff. Now there's plenty of software. There's all kinds of softwares you can use. I mean we use … Grin is one of them that we use that you can do. There's another klear.com which is with a K. There's Neoreach, there's Revfluence … I mean there's all kinds of them. There's all kinds of different ones that you can go. Some of them are free, some of them will cost … I have, I mean I'm very fortunate since I have access to almost all the softwares because they want me to look at their software and evaluate it and stuff so I'm very blessed in that sense. Joe: You do? Shane: Well I mean you know it's so funny. I'm very humble about that and I don't think of myself as an influencer but over time you start to realize you're like wow I guess I am an influencer you know. I'm just not … I don't know I just don't think of myself that way, like when I go to conferences and speak and do stuff it's [inaudible 00:15:08.8] people come up to me like I've been following you for a long time. It's always really … it really kind of shocks me. Or like while walking somewhere and I'm not that famous by any means but they will come up and say are you Shane Barker? And there's been a few times I'm like God do I owe you money, are you VISA or like I'm just trying to figure it out right. It's like this weird … so you know an influencer [inaudible 00:15:25.1] come up I guess and things are good and I've got some good foundation and people are following me so I'm not mad at that by any means but- Joe: That's good. The software does it help you measure the engagements does it go that deep? What is this like Grin and- Shane: It does. So this is the thing you have to look at when it comes to engagement, this is the key and when you talk about software … so software is that 1st level. So the 1st level of when you're going in you go and you take a look at it, you can put in hash tags, you can put in keywords, you can do this kind of stuff. So let's say it's yoga, that's the thing I'm looking for and let's say I'm I can sell this yoga mats all over the world. So it doesn't necessarily have to be in Los Angeles or Las Vegas or something. So I go all over the world, so what I do is now I can curate these lists. I mean go take a look at them, you add them to whatever … some kind of a folder or whatever it is, you pull those people in. That's the 1st step and it'll say the engagement. And it'll say your engagement is 3.5%of 5.6% and software is the 1st step. That's where you're you curating the list and you're saying hey okay I want to find 10 good influencers so I'm going to curate a list of a 100 or 200 or whatever. And then the next step to this whole thing is you … software is lovely but influencers once again because they want to make money and I'm not saying all influencers are this way but … well, we all probably want to make money but there's ways to fudge your numbers. So that's what we have to look at. I can go on to Fiverr right now and I can add any picture on Instagram and I can get 10,000 likes for $5, $10; whatever the number is. Joe: Right. Shane: And that's not engagement. I mean somebody like if you came into my store … let's take this offline. I own a store and Joe you came in and you knocked and you said hey Shane I was wondering do you guys have this and I just went [thumbs up] that's not engagement right? You're like okay so Shane no … so say that again so what do you have this I'm looking for this- Joe: You just gave us the thumbs up. Shane: The thumbs up, that's right I forgot we go audio and video on this. So the issue with that is that's not engagement right? Engagement is like oh hey Joe thanks for coming in my shop. If you're looking for these blue widgets then you want to go over here or let me show you some … blue widgets are cool but the yellow widgets are the ones I think you need because of this this and this. So that's where we kind of get this thing of where the software is awesome go take a look at it but engagement is conversation. So if I'm a yoga instructor or a brand and you're a yoga instructor or either way you know vice versa. Joe: Yeah. Shane: Then what I should do as a brand I should go look at your profile and find out 1st of all how many other sponsorships you've had. We don't want somebody that has a new sponsorship every day because the audience is going to be a little unauthentic … not authentic right? Joe: You don't want somebody that has a new sponsorship every day you want somebody- Shane: No, because think about that like this is a thing, it's like it's like dating. If you wanted to date a girl that's had a new boyfriend every day for the last 15 years like you got to think well there's got to be something wrong with that right? Like there's … it's not … the numbers aren't working they're not … you really want to develop your brand, you want to develop a longer relationship with an influencer. But if they're talking about something every day the problem is then you get to a situation where people start to go okay does Joe the influencer really like this product or is he just doing this for money? Because it just doesn't feel like we want Joe the influencer that says listen I've tried this product for 3 months you guys you know I don't promote tons of products this is a product that I've used it's absolutely awesome this is why I'm promoting it. Joe: Okay. Shane: Right, so you want to get authentic- Joe: You're going to look at that engagement percentage and you're going to focus to see if they've had lots of different advertisers on a regular basis. Back to that engagement percentage so Shane, you had said 4 or 5% what they have … what is a good percentage? And I mean people talk about open rates and things of that nature in email campaigns, what is a good engagement percentage for people that are just starting off? What would they look out for; the number? Shane: I would probably say it's like probably 3 to 5 % is a good engagement rate. I mean anything higher than that is awesome. Joe: Okay. Shane: And here's another thing we talk about that engagement because I'll touch on this as well is you have to look at the comments. So we have this list of let's say its 100 influencers and let's say I'm looking for 10 great ones. You want to go through … you want to look at their profile; A. look if they've done a thousand sponsorships then I would get away from them or you look at the engagement. But you want to look at what people are asking for like hey Joe the yoga instructor. Hey, I want to know … it looks like you're using that new mat or you're using a new water ball whatever like where did you get that? Or hey Joe when are you coming to town or hey this … like what you want to show that people are engaged with the content and this is where things get … where people can fudge numbers where if you go to somebody and they have an engagement rate of 10% you're like oh my God this guy's crushing it, this girl's crushing it, you go and look at it and they have 1000 emojis, that's not engagement right? So you can … from software standpoint an emoji is engage- Joe: You want actual communication, people talking back and forth info and some responding, people asking questions. Shane: Right. That's the thing and that's when we talk about the … when I said I'd rather have somebody of 5 or 10,000 or 15,000 than a million. Joe: Yeah. Shane: That's where the engagement rate stays higher because Joe what I would look at is Joe the influencer. What I want is that if people are asking questions and you get 20 questions there should be 20 answers by Joe. Joe: Right. Shane: Joe, you should be going in there and saying hey … where I think is that's engagement. That's showing that you have an engaged audience. When you get to the … I'll use Kim Kardashian as an example, you have 20, 30, 50 million; they're not responding to anybody for the most part because they can't physically do all that. And so the engagement rate is a lot less. You have your audience that's … you get eyeballs so if you're Coca-Cola you're going to say hey I'll go with Kim because I know that she's going to get eyeballs. I don't really care about the engagement. I'm looking at overall exposure and they've got a big budget. If I'm a brand you really want to go take a look at that and say who is … who's on the come up. They don't have to have a million followers but who's engaged? Who seems to be really into it? What's a good product alignment? You're at this … is your product and this influencer going to align correctly? And then what I do … and this is a big one a lot of people don't do this, I interview all the influencers. I do a call just like you're doing here Joe. I get on there and I say hey Jennifer I've got XYZ product I usually have some questions and I say so tell me a little about yourself or what … who you've worked with. They should have some kind of a media kit so there's some 1st steps that we take. And then I go so tell me a little bit what have you looked in [inaudible 00:21:17.3] XYZ company and they go … I mean I haven't looked into it but I know that you guys are offering 1,000 bucks a post so I was interested. Joe: Right. And that's the thing I was just going to ask actually so thank you, you went there. How do you track this? How does it … what does it cost? I mean people do sponsored ads in Amazon, they do Google Ad Words, and it's a clear defined cost per click. What is it typically cost per engagement I guess or per influencer if they've got a 3% engagement and 5,000 followers? Shane: Yeah that's the thing is it's everything is negotiable. So this is where it becomes a little harder because you do for if you're going after the keyword Sacramento DUI attorney you know that it's $3 per click. It's very easy. If you're going up with Amazon there's a … they have a model that they put in place to be able to understand once again how popular it is and what they're going to charge. Joe: Yeah. Shane: Influencer marketing is different because you're dealing … each influencer is different. Each influencer, in theory, should own their own company or their own brands. So what you do … I mean there's certain websites and stuff and calculators you can go to and kind of what you think would be fair but what I always tell people is this, the analogy I use is like let's say if I have a Babe Ruth signed baseball card. And everybody tells you and all the big guys go hey man that's worth a million dollars Shane; guaranteed a million dollars. There's only 2 of those out there. Yours is in mint condition it's worth a million dollars and I go well I'm going to wait to get a million dollars. And then Joe you come to me and say hey Shane I heard around the campfire that you have a Babe Ruth card I'd love to buy it from you. And I said well it's worth a million and do you know what Shane I appreciate that but how about if I give you 75,000? And I go okay you know I'm actually not off. I guess I don't need to hold on to it. I mean 75,000 is a good deal. And that's a good deal right? It's a supply and demand type thing. The cool thing about brands is there's hundreds if not thousands of influencers. So everything is negotiable. There are some companies or some influencers that will do free product. There are some of them that will do free product plus some type of an affiliate link where they're getting some kind of residual sales. There will be other ones that just want a flat pay per post. But everything is negotiable so it's very difficult to say you should spend this amount. You have to figure out what you think is going to be fair. So if I go in and say listen I want to get to 10 influencers I have a $10,000 budget so in theory I have $1,000 per influencer. What you have to do is go in and figure out those influencers and talk to them and say what would you usually charge. Well I charge $250 per post on Instagram let's say. And so my mind I'm thinking I get at least 4 right? So I say how about this why don't we do this, I'll go and pay you $1,000 we'll do the 4 things but I also want you to do two Instagram stories and I want you talk about a Snapchat for 2 times. If I think that's a good deal and that can move some traction and you think it's a good deal then it's a good deal. So that's where everything is different with everybody but I think what happens with brands and what they don't realize is these influencers once the followers start getting honey because that's what brands still look at most of the time. Is that they get pitched 5, 10, 15, 20, 30 times not a day but a week- Joe: The influencers- Shane: The influencers do. Joe: Right. Shane: And especially if you're up there then you're getting pitched over and over and over right? So the thing which you have to do as a brand, you have to 1st you have to differentiate. So make a nice little catchy subject line. You want to get their attention, not just looking to work for you that's just kind of yeah okay I get it. But come up with something kind of flashy. But in the email, you're going to tell them, you want to make it a win-win right? Because influencers are used to people saying hey if you post 2 pictures I'll send you a shirt. And that's kind of like ah okay thanks. So you want me to A. the reason why you got in contact with an influencer is because you love their content. So they probably have a video, they probably have a video guy and a photo person and all this kind of stuff. They have like … it's a business and you're telling them that you're going to send them a free $20 shirt for 2 posts when they have costs. I mean there's a reason why you picked that influencer because they have great content. If they're a lower influencer what I mean by that lower followers and they're doing it themselves then maybe that makes sense. And maybe they love your brand and maybe they will do it for free. They'll say you know what I love you guys as brand why don't we do … you guys send me one shirt a month, I'll do two posts a month and that's going to be a win-win for everybody. Joe: Let me ask about tracking because you know with Google Ad Words you can track response at ads you can track … we know what cost per acquisition is. How do you do that with an influencer that you give $1,000? Shane: Yeah there's a number of different ways of doing it you know the ones that just want a flat pay per post … I mean that's … the difficult part is … I mean what I would recommend is so this's the thing if this is my company this is my brand this and what I do with my clients. There's a number of ways to do it. There's coupon codes, so you put Jennifer25 so they should put something on hey this is Jennifer these are these products by these companies I've used it in the last few months everything's awesome and I've worked out a deal where you guys everybody gets 25% off hurry it's going to be gone in 40 hours; whatever the message. Joe: The influencers, for the most part, is saying use my coupon code and being up front and saying I'm getting a commission I'm getting paid I'm- Shane: They're supposed to, FTC you're supposed to right? So the thing is because they don't want you like in theory fooling the public right? So it's no different than if you had whatever Snoop Dog talking about Toyota on a commercial at the bottom really low will say Snoop Dog was paid for this promotion. So there's … they want to make sure people aren't being fooled so you should put this as some kind of a sponsored ad or #ad or #sponsored something like that. Joe: Okay. Shane: They would put that in the hash tags it's … the FTC's there's always a little bit of gray area with that. But if you put some things like that you should be safe. The thing is that what you want to do when you have those like I said when those people reach out to you and you're trying to develop those time relationships. The thing is you have the coupon code so you can use something whatever that is the thing but one thing a brand realizes is just because you hire Jenny that has 50,000 followers they can't be a frequency deal. So email marketing if I want to go buy a Coca-Cola what I do is I see a commercial and then I see a banner and I see this when I go to the store I go, man, I feel like drinking a Coca-Cola for some reason. It's the same thing will influencer marketing, don't think 5, 6 years ago you could put up one post and probably make some great money; it's a frequency deal. So you don't … when you're negotiating with influencers make sure that there's 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 … there's multiple things that they're going to do for a set price assuming that's how you want to … but just make sure it's a multiple deal with the … so we have coupon codes, you have an affiliate link. So Instagram being the example there's only one place to put a link right so it's a very valuable valuable place. What we use … there's a number of different things you can use but with that you can either A. you can negotiate with the influencer and say hey we would like to give you an affiliate link that you put in your bio thing and we'd like for the next 2 weeks while you promote this product we'd like for you to have that affiliate link in there. So they can put link in bio or something like that. So it pushes them up there but you have to have a contract with that influencer and make sure they know what they're doing. That's another big thing with this is we have brands and if- Joe: Where do you find these contracts? Shane: You can look online. And we actually have some templates that we use that we could that I think … I'm sure I've shared them on multiple different posts but really just a brief right? You want a brief of like hey this is the hash tags you are going to use. This is the kind of content that influencers have used in the past that have been successful but give the influencer free reign to do what they want. Just give them basic guidelines. Hey, we're also looking for you not to do any anything within our competitors for the next 3 months so that you're not doing 10 different campaigns about the same kinds of stuff; just some basic stuff where you're covering yourself. We want to also want to make sure that our link is in your bio for at least 2 weeks or a month or once again everything is negotiable but you have to talk about those terms ahead of times and brands don't because they don't know. That's the reason why I always recommend hiring a consultant or somebody to help you with your 1st few campaigns because then they can … there's these things where you can lose a lot of money and not know what you're doing and just assume by hiring an influencer an influencer is going to do what's best for you. Most influencers aren't marketers; they aren't right? Joe: Right. Shane: The yoga instructor that just … he's a yoga instructor, he didn't go in and get his marketing degree and say hey I'm going to go and try to build this huge community. He just started doing what he does. Joe: So he needs guidelines given to him from you on what to do and how to do it. Shane: Yeah because if not then it … you just, you need some direction. Joe: Got you. And you've talked about Instagram; my kids are always watching videos in Instagram. Occasionally they snap back and forth and I don't know how they're ever going to make money on Snapchat but I'm sure they are. I'm sure they probably are. But what social media outlets are the best options for people that are selling yoga pads [inaudible 00:29:20.6]. Shane: So Instagram is where we spend a lot of time because it's like that lifestyle; everybody wants to like have the pink puppy and be doing yoga be … have the perfect little cute little babies around and the perfect relationship. And so it's that lifestyle type you know when I'm always on my jet I'm eating caviar and life's good. And then we have YouTube which obviously is awesome because YouTube's always going to be out there. What I mean by that is YouTube's the number two search engine. Joe: Yeah. Shane: So we work with an influencer that does a review of a product or talks about your product they'll go and put that content and they have a huge subscribership let's say it's 10, 15, 20, 30, 100,000, 1 million and that video literally goes out to all those people and then you get those eyeballs on you. Joe: So the software you mentioned before measure engagements on different mediums like YouTube and Instagram or? Shane: It can. Yeah, there's multiple … there's different softwares that do different ones. I mean there's one or two that can measure engagement in all of those. Or what you can do … what you want to do is you can talk to the influencer and say hey put this in the brief. I want to make sure that I'm getting all of the inside information on my campaign and how it went and what we did and that kind of thing. Joe: Okay. So Instagram number one, YouTube number 2, is there a 3rd that people should look out or a 4th or a 5th that you'd consider? Shane: I mean Snapchat is not bad and then Facebook and Twitter there's some stuff going on there. But really where we spend our time is Instagram and YouTube just because it's the amount of how many people around them. I mean people spend I don't know … I guess like 55 minutes a day on Instagram. I mean I think it's after … like after you die it's like 8 months or something … I mean it's … of your life time. I mean it's crazy right and obviously people spend a lot more time on there and then YouTube once again as always it's that evergreen content that's always going to be out there when people are looking for certain things. If you have a … once again I have this thing and this is a brand new patented product and I get someone to do a review on it on YouTube and they've got a huge subscribership like my sales could go through the roof because of that. Joe: Right we've got a number of transactions over the years where I've had businesses that had huge spikes because of Dr. Oz mentioning the product or the ingredient in the product. I sold one earlier this year … I think all these years have blended together, earlier this year where it was on one of Oprah's favorite things back in 2012 or 13 and that carried it for a long time. Would you recommend that the audience members that have the yoga mats of the world go after those big influencers or just focus on the smaller ones or maybe a combination of both because you might get lucky? Shane: Right. You might get lucky. I mean it really depends on budget as well. So if you're going to go after I mean Oprah being the example that you give. Like if Oprah talks about your product then all you have to do is hire somebody to count your money at that point. Joe: Right. Shane: You got to … you physically have to figure … you have somebody and get maybe 100,000 and just have … and just count the money and just probably I will organize it through serial numbers just to get something to do. Joe: I think these people would argue that you also have to scram like it's an inventory to fulfill those orders because that's what happens. Shane: Oprah is not going to promote anything without knowing that you've got some good distribution in place. Joe: A good problem. But that with free endorsement as well, it was sending products to that influencer looking for a free review and Dale called them one day and then said hey you're going to be in this issue and they're like oh my God that's two days from now. Shane: So I'll answer your question, so Oprah obviously being the mega of this whole situation but there's no reason not to ask bigger influencers or smaller influencers … I mean smaller following. They're going to be probably more apt because they're hungry and they're just either getting started and that kind of stuff. You see the prices can be a little lower. They're going to be more engaged stuff like that. But I'm not saying don't shoot for the stars. I'm not saying don't send something to Oprah if you have a patented product that really takes care of a need that nobody knows about because you'll never know. You're saying right there that all of a sudden Dale gave the phone call and said hey we loved your product and you're like you've got to be kidding me right? The thing is nobody is going to knock on your door if you're not out there and pushing. If you're not out there sending that information to Oprah or whoever you'll just never know. And so what I would do is do a nice … I mean I would once again just pull in what … figure out who your buyer persona is and if it's Oprah's people because you have a book that you just read and it's a self-help book and you think you can really help everybody, you have a different angle, you've got a great phenomenal story then pitch Oprah. Go for it. Like why would you not? She's not going to know about people that don't pitch her but I would also say the smaller influencers are … you know ones of medium size and all that go after them as well. The other thing that I always do is like let's say I'm a newer company I go and look at my hash tag. So let's say I'm #whitecoffeemug so … great I go and look that up and that's the name of my company. You might already have influencers in your sphere that love your product. Joe: Okay. Shane: That's a no brainer right? Like that's a … you go in there I'm already talking about your product I don't … you need to convince me of anything except how much free product I can send you to keep spreading the good word about my product. Joe: Okay, awesome. So for those that are listening again that are trying to sell yoga mats and use the medium influencers, forget the shooting for the stars and Oprah that type of thing. These people are usually entrepreneurs with maybe a remote contractor or 2 or 3 VA's here and there. They may take this project on themselves at 1st and then hire somebody to take it over once they've setup SOP's. What kind of time do you think it would take if it was me and I'm working 25 hours a week running my business which is pretty standard for the types of businesses that we sell, should we focus on a lot 5 hours a week to get started, 10 hours a week and what kind of budget would you suggest somebody starts off with that maybe they're doing a couple of million years in an annual revenue. Shane: Yeah, so what I would recommend and once again I'm not just saying this because I'm a consultant. I would hire a consultant and say hey what do we need to do here? Because there's people that have paid me a lot of money for me to learn what I learned … what I know today. I recommend that with anything, not just influencer marketing, with anything; like if you want to jump in and do your own PPC figure out somebody that's a PPC consultant and have them so you listen I just want to hire you for 5 hours a month or 10 hours a month or whatever. I want to put together my ideas. If you can go in and tighten them up it will save you so much money because as entrepreneurs we always go hey we'll do it ourselves right? I'm a grown ass man I'm going to go do this, I can do it. It's not a problem. I'm not going to delegate because I have at least 2 more hours in the day. I'm only working 22 hours in the day I have at least 2 more hours, sleep is so overrated. I'm going to do it myself. Okay, that's awesome; take it on. I'm not here to squash your dream but what I am telling you is that if you have a consultant that helps you along the way they'll help you with you know these … they'll potentially save you money, save you a lot of time. And because there's like plans I'll put together for people and say listen now you go hire a VA or let me show you how to do this or put the plan in place and now these people can go and implement it and they will come back after a month and hey what problems did you have? Hey, you kind of messed up here let's look at the pitch emails you sent. Who responded? Now, what do we respond back to them? Like that's a person that wants to take it on themselves. We have two ways of working obviously, one is hey we'll do it for you like don't worry about it. You sit back we're going to just ask you questions you give us the answers. Or the other way of like hey you want to learn right? And a lot of agencies don't do that like you want to learn because they don't want to give up the secret sauce. I don't have a problem giving up the secret sauce. I want to help you out and I just want to make sure you're successful. Joe: Well look I think what's going to happen is a lot of folks … you know we give up a secret sauce all the time. We help. If you help people they may say you know what I love this I think it's going to be great please do it for me because they're busy doing other things as well. So I think it's a great idea. Some of the people that are listening may want to give it a go and shoot from the hip and see if anything sticks which is probably not the greatest idea in the world. Others will hire a consultant to create a campaign and then they'll run with it, they'll hire the VA. And others may say look just please take this on and run with and we'll measure results with you and if you want we'll keep going. Shane: Also, we're doing that thing too is we're actually developing a course as well. We're doing of course for influencers and for brands. So now we're in current stages of developing that. So they'll also be an inexpensive option or a cheaper option than hiring myself as a consultant or hiring my company to do everything for them where they can go in and take a course for whatever $97 or $300. And they'll go in and they can go through it and once again they'll have enough information there to be dangerous so they don't have me on an hourly basis. Or if they want a bigger project they can do that as well. But we're developing that ritual as we speak. Joe: What's your timeframe? People are going to go okay great when is it going to be done? Shane: I knew you we're going to hold me by the fire Joe because I told you about the book earlier and so then you put me on tonight. Joe: I know. Shane: It will be done by the 1st of the year. Joe: Okay. Shane: That's right, I said it. Joe: When it's done make sure I get that link and we'll put it on the show notes of the podcast okay? Shane: I can't wait but by the 1st. If not by the 1st then I would just … I'll drop off as an entrepreneur and just go and do something separate that's not online just because I'll be so ashamed. Joe: 61, 71, you've got something like 80 days maybe to get it done okay. Shane: Now you're just trying to stress me out, Joe. I mean come on I just gave you a date I mean now I got to go talk to my people and go listen we're going to have to double our staff- Joe: [inaudible 00:38:00.2] for meditation for that stress. You'd be okay. Shane: Okay. Joe: You're not just … no, you're thriving on stress. Come on. Shane: I love that, like the fact you just told me that like secretly I don't even need any more coffee. Like I just got these goose bumps on my back that I said you know what I'm going to show Joe. I'm going to show him by the 1st he forgets this. Joe: Please do. Shane, I love the influencer marketing approach. So many people focus on one thing and you know when they diversify their revenue streams, their sources of traffic it de-risks or lowers the risk of the business and the lower the risk is for the buyer what happens the value goes up. So for those that are listening take a look at it. Take a look at influencer marketing. Hopefully, this episode of the Quiet Light Podcast has helped. Shane, tell the people that are listening how they would reach you if they want to talk to you about consulting or talk about maybe you taking over their influencer marketing campaign. Shane: Yeah so you can reach me at ShaneBarker.com that's S-H-A-N-E-B-A-R-K-E-R.COM and my personal email is shane@shanebarker.com just email me if you have any questions or if you need anything I'm here to help once again. Joe: And if they want to be an influencer themselves they can just head on down to UCLA and take your course right? Shane: Yeah, it's a really cheap course. It's UCLA, I mean it's only one of the top 20 universities in the nation. It's not a problem, just get a little bit of financial aid you'll be fine. Talk to your parents. Joe: You must be doing something right if it took you 10 years to graduate and now you're teaching at UCLA so good for you. Shane: I'll tell you. Thank you so much. Joe: I appreciate your time make sure you give me that link. I'm going to hold you to it. Shane: I'm on it. Joe: All right buddy, talk to you later. Shane: Thanks, Joe bye bye.   Links and Resources: ShaneBarker.com Shane@shanebarker.com Influencer Marketing SaaS: Grin.co Klear.com NeoReach.com

Today's guest is truly the epitome of what an entrepreneur looks like. As an immigrant to the United States, Ramon Van Meer spent many years self-employed, just making ends meet. So while a rags to riches story it is not, considering that he has been out of school and working for over 20 years, it's still somewhat of a surprise when you learn that someone in his position just signed a nearly 8 figure deal. Ramon is sharing his backstory today. A few years ago people wouldn't have invested a few thousand with Ramon, but today they are lining up to work with him. A high school dropout who came up with an idea for a niche business that has grown exponentially in just a few short years? The growth and subsequent sale of his company, SoapHub, is an incredible story, not just for the size of the transaction, but also because of what Ramon accomplished to get there. Episode Highlights: Ramon shares his difficult upbringing in Holland. How that time shaped his life and made him who he is today. The lesson here is not to quit school! Why a network and connections are so important. How this sale is 20 years of work in the making, even though on paper Ramon looks like overnight success. You'll hear the full roller coaster story of the sale from not one, but multiple buyers and offers that resulted in the final sale price being nearly double of what was originally set. What made the difference for the end buyer, both the buyer himself as well as the money behind the buyer. What Ramon has learned from his mistakes. Ramon shares his number one recommendation when preparing to sell a business. How essential the right lawyer is in these types of transactions. Transcription: Mark: At Brand Builders Summit back in August … that was August, right? Yes, it was August. Joe you brought somebody to me. You introduced me to somebody. We had dinner with him a couple of nights and he's a client of ours, we worked with him on multiple deals but he's just a quiet guy, very very nice kind of understated and didn't stand out to me too much; other than the fact that he was a client of course and I wanted to get to know him better. But it wasn't until lunch on I think the third day that we were there and you told me a little bit about his back story which was a heart wrenching, moving, inspiring, all those things in one and you have him now on the podcast sharing a bit of that story. Joe: I do. He's really the American dream. He moved to this country nine years ago I think. He had a really really tough upbringing. He could have gone down many different paths. He could have wound up in jail very easily. He dropped out of high school at the age of 15. He started becoming an entrepreneur, working construction, doing whatever he could, has been self-employed more or less for the last 20 years and even up to three or four years ago was living month to month as an entrepreneur. Overnight success? Absolutely not. A long long road but we just closed a transaction that was nearly eight figures and you would never know it. Unless you have an eye for picking out the guy that … I think you told me just pick out the worst dressed guy in the room and he's probably the best well off or they at least get the most money. This particular gentleman Ramon he was very chill, very relaxed, people just talked to him, got along with him and then heard his back story and just blown away with what he's achieved. A few years ago people wouldn't give him $5,000 now they're just throwing money at him. Of course, he's not taking it because he's going to do this all on his own but it's an incredible story not just for the size of the transaction and what he's accomplished but what he's overcome in life to get there. Mark: Yeah now well let's get to it. That's a really good story. Joe: Hey folks, its Joe Valley here from Quiet Light Brokerage. And today our guest is my friend and my client, Ramon van Meer. Ramon, welcome to the Quiet Light Podcast. Ramon: Thank you so much Joe for having me. Joe: It's good to have you here man. You and I have been working together now for … gosh almost eight months right? We started in January. Ramon: Yeah. Joe: I got a call from our mutual friend and former broker here at Quiet Light, Darren Harden. He sold a smaller business of yours a couple of years ago and he called and said hey look you're looking to sell your business and he gave me a number that you wanted and I thought okay well let's see what happens. I took a look at your numbers. I knew you had a good history from Darren about you. And we kind of overshot that number a little bit. It took a while but we did it and I want to talk about that process here today. I want to talk about your background, your history, the type of person you are, the things that you have achieved in spite of your upbringing, and the challenges that you've overcome. And I'm going to dig a little deep and I hope you don't mind because I think it's a great lesson. Ramon: Uh-oh, all right. Joe: So with that why don't you tell the people listening a little bit about yourself, where you're from; all that big story there. Ramon: All right very brief story. I'm originally from Holland, the Netherlands. I have a big accent so … but I came to the United States nine years ago. I now live in the Bay area close to San Francisco. I always have been an entrepreneur before I would say before entrepreneurship was a trend; even back home from construction companies, to promoting parties, to selling piñatas online, to running a … bootstrapping a site about soap operas of all topics. Joe: You seem like a big soap opera guy. You're really into them right? I mean just a passion that you followed. Ramon: Yeah because you know I have zero to do between 12 and four o'clock afternoon … no, and you know I know we go on that delay there down the line but I think it's really cool. A lot of people would say you have to really be passionate about the stuff that you sell or do. I have zero passion for soap operas and it turned out to be probably the biggest exit I have so far. Joe: Yeah and clearly folks I'm being sarcastic about that because it's an ongoing joke that Ramon has never watched a single full soap opera in his entire life. Are you going to go to your grave someday never watching a soap opera or do you think you might sit down one afternoon and just watch an episode of Days of Our Lives or General Hospital or whatever is airing these days; just one? Ramon: The problem is its … okay, so the show is one hour long. Of that one hour its 30 minutes commercials and all that 30 minutes is just very painful to watch. I'm sorry soap opera lovers it's just not really my cup of tea. I never spoke … said it out loud because of anyone, friends … you know my audience but it's … yeah. Joe: These are words from a guy that had millions and millions of people visiting his website and YouTube channel every single day and he never watched a single full soap opera. All right we're going to get into that a little bit. So as I said for those listening he would not go deep enough so we're going to go a little deeper. You moved here from Holland nine years ago. Let's talk a little bit about your upbringing so that people that I think have had some challenges in life and are hoping to do what you've done can hear your story. You at one point in your life were homeless correct? Ramon: Well. Joe: Briefly. Ramon: I think … well yeah. Well, it was more the fact that my age was very young but yeah I had to … I have slept on the streets. Not really on the street like I don't want to make it sound too dramatic and more- Joe: I did that for you. I started off with that question. So at the age of 12 you had to spend a few nights on the street at the age of 12. And then friends' couches and then eventually worked it out and did you move back in with your dad or did you stay with friends from 12 to 15? Ramon: Well yeah not to make it too long of a story my parents were separated. My mom eventually … I was living with my mom, eventually, she was not able to take care of me anymore so I had to move to my father's house. And he basically just kicked me out on the street when I was 12. He had a lot of issues with alcoholism and a lot of other issues. So I was … the first couple of days on the street then at some friends' houses and then one of the parents of one of the friends I was staying at tracked down my mom and my mom took me back in. But she was actually not in a state of mind to raise a child but there was no other way around it so … yeah. Joe: And I've made you very uncomfortable in the first five minutes of this interview. Ramon: Yeah thank you, Joe. Joe: I do it because honestly every time I talk to you and I hear your story, I'm blown away with what you've achieved. I think there must be something just ingrained in your DNA that made you believe that you were going to be a success in life. Is that sort of … you always kind of knew you were going to go off and on your own and overcome these challenges that so many would just give up on and go down a terrible different path? Did you have a belief in yourself that you were going to be a successful entrepreneur even at a young age? Ramon: Yeah and not every day but in the big picture I always believed that one day somehow I would be successful. I always had that entrepreneurial spirit in me. I was not good at school in that same phase of the stuff that happened at home. I got kicked out of some high schools and eventually just stopped going to school when I was 15 because … yeah and I started doing stuff for myself like as a business owner. So I always knew that with hard work and just being … keep on going. I think the stuff that happened to me in the past actually helped me. I almost now have a mentality that I survived all that stuff back then so the things that I'm dealing right now is actually nothing compared to back then if that makes sense. Joe: No it's certainly made you who you are today and a better person for it. For those listening just to get the full picture, we just sold Ramon's business for just shy of nine million dollars. It's the second business that we've sold for Ramon through Quiet Light Brokerage and he's a serial entrepreneur. And I think you said to me a couple of weeks ago Ramon that just two or three years ago you could not get someone to give you or invest $8,000 in you and now there are people coming out of the woodworks to give you money to invest and buy businesses on their behalf; which you're not doing, you using your own for the most part. But when you have such a big success like this you're looked at very very differently. And you've done some incredible things and on top of that all you're a good person which makes a big difference. And the buyer saw that and I talked to him yesterday and he repeated that several times during my interview with him. Now first off for the children listening if there are any young entrepreneurs don't quit school just because Ramon did and he sold his business for nearly eight figures. Don't quit school, stay there, please. Ramon: Stay there because look I'm 37 now right? So this is 20 years in the making. It's not that yeah I started this soap opera website three years ago so someone will say yeah you became … you went from zero to hundred in three years. But honestly, it actually took me 20 plus years to get this. So it's not the smart … it's not the easiest, it's not the smartest way to go about. The more and more now that I'm … especially the last year and I got to know a lot of other super successful entrepreneurs it's that networking and connections are so important. So if you are in school you will get all these connections and relationships with really key people that are going to be key people in your life and I had to do it the other way around. Joe: Yeah and I think something that you and I saw at the Brand Builders Summit and the other events that you and I both go to is the connections with the people that are attending those events and the relationships that you build in the masterminds that you join, sharing ideas. Everybody has a different experience. Everybody has a different level of expertise on different things and for the most part, they're willing to share. Unless you're a direct competitor which is really … it's such a vast marketplace, selling … doing content sites like you do which is your niche and your level of expertise versus even a physical product site like Moyes, he … great success; huge story … willing to talk to you about tax liabilities and things of that nature that you have to deal with now; a very good problem that you have to focus on. So let's back up a little bit. Let's focus in on your niche and your specialty. I think you've looked at now a number of different niches now that you've sold your largest business content advertising site in a soap opera niche. You had considered building a portfolio in either physical products or SaaS or content sites and advertising sites, have you narrowed down where you're going to focus on now for the future? Ramon: No, I have still not. So my dream is so to speak building a small … you know I call it like a private equity model where we have a small team, an in-house team where we can start or acquire or buy a stake into an existing company. Because our background is content and driving traffic, sales or viewers, eyeballs through content. And so using that strategy to either push sells for a SaaS product or for an e-commerce or for content. But yeah you and I have been going back and forth, I do think I need to specialize in one niche and every … e-commerce has its pros and cons and so is SaaS and so is content. And like you've mentioned to me many times before like the grass is always greener you hear stories, the success stories of people selling their e-commerce business for a hundred million dollars but it's not easy to do and there's a lot of … there are downsides of running an e-commerce and the same goes for content and also with SaaS. So I'm now taking the time to talk with as many people as possible and do research and then go from there. Joe: So let's talk about SoapHub and the site that you sold. Ramon: Okay. Joe: We don't have to get into too much in terms of specifics but I want to talk about the path so that business owner sellers out there understand what an emotional roller coaster it can be. Ramon: Yeah. Joe: We listed the business for sale in … I think it was February of this year. We had multiple offers. We listed it I believe at five million dollars and came pretty close to asking price and put it under a lot of intent. I was driving home from Georgia probably I don't know 20, 30 days into due diligence moving along very well. The buyer was very happy. He flew out there to see you. And things are going extremely really well and you called me on a Saturday afternoon. Can you recount that conversation for the people that are listening? Ramon: Yeah and I feel still … I still feel bad about that. So … but picture it as SoapHub was doing really well already, not just revenue wise but profit wise. And between the time that you sit down with Quiet Light and come up with a valuation and an asking price until that time you know, there's … time goes by right? Like I think we spoke first in December. It was the first initial and now we were at three months past and literally the revenue and profit of SoapHub was skyrocketing. And it took me a while to okay what should I do here? Should I keep going with this process and with this buyer that was under LOI with me or should I just say you know what let's hold off for a couple of months and increase the 12 month trailing? Because most businesses or all businesses that go through brokers their valuation is based on a multiple of the last 12 months of profit. So the more months of higher profit you can show, the higher the valuation. But yeah on that Saturday I also remember I was nervous. I didn't want to call you but I thought that's … when you're dealing with such a big event, this is a life changing event for me. Not just for me but also my family; my mom, my dad, my son, everybody involved, and the employees. I thought I had to do it. So I had to call you up and say “Joe, I'm really sorry but I think it's best for us to take the listing down for now and then and relist it again in four, five, six months.” Joe: You're having as much trouble telling … say we're just recounting the story as you did the day you called me on that Saturday. It's kind of- Ramon: I know. Joe: You still feel bad about it. I knew when that call came through on a Saturday I thought okay this can't be good. Ramon's calling me on a Saturday afternoon and that's really odd. And I knew it was going to be a tough phone call. So you had recounted that basically we went through the numbers on the call and you had said look just I got to think about my family. This could be … this is a lifetime event sale and the business is growing so much that this initial … I think we're at a four time multiple now is dropping so low that you feel like you're giving the business away. And I think you and I went through the numbers and we said all right look if we wait another six months even if we just held the same multiple we'd be at a valuation at around seven and a half eight million dollars. The goal at the end of the phone call was just to step back, run the numbers, talk on Monday, and then break the bad news to the buyer if we needed to. And we did that and it was hard and he felt bad. He felt … he was very upset because it's great opportunity. So we pulled it back and we were going to just wait right? We're going to take the listing down and wait another six months more to pass. We updated the financials just as a recounting of the story. The numbers jumped tremendously and we reached out to the backup buyers based on the conversations you and I had. At the very least we've got to tell the current buyer of the situation and what we're going to do in six months or so. And then of course two other backup buyers were constantly reaching out to me and said if anything changes please reach out. So we pulled out of that LOI, it was a non-binding letter of intent and we backed out of that and ended up having multiple offers. It pushed the value of the business up well in advance of that six month period because we ended up closing well before that time ended. Was that an easy process? You know a lot of sellers think oh I want multiple offers. Oh, I want to be in a situation where it's getting bid up over asking price. Was that an easy process for you? Was it comfortable? No stress, really easy to go through or was it emotional? Ramon: It was super emotional because you have multiple offers that most of the times are not identical. They're a little bit different and you also have to think who is this buyer? Of course, you're talking on the phone a couple of times but you have to think about “Okay who is most likely to close?” Because it's one thing to make an offer and sign an LOI but not everyone will be able to close. And then if the buyer at the last minute is not able to close then you lose two months of work. Due diligence periods and also lose that momentum where there are several buyers trying to outbid them. You know you have that momentum going that you are getting more over your asking price but if you have to go back after two months then you kind of lost that momentum. So yeah it was a very tough decision because especially the two top offers were from two buyers that I was … would like to work with them … both of them. Joe: Right. Ramon: So it was a difficult decision. Joe: All three buyers were highly qualified and heck of a lot smarter than I am and brought a really good offer to the table. The difference for those buyers out there that are listening when you're in a multiple offer situation, the difference for the one buyer that ended up eventually buying the business was that he had some investors behind him and he brought them to the conference call, Ramon, right? Ramon: Yeah. Joe: So we got to not only speak to the buyer itself but the money behind the buyer. We got to have conversations with as well. Did that make a big difference for you? Ramon: Yeah, definitely. Because that gave me confidence that this buyer is most likely to close and also close faster. People that are more experienced is more easier to work with. And so as a sellers point of view … because I've been sitting on both sides of the table, as a seller's point of view yes, of course, you look at the money, at the offer, the money … you know a mug money first but you also look at okay who is the buyer because you're going to have to work with this person for quite some time. How is he financing? Is this person being able to close this kind of transaction? So if you are in the race to buy something try to also make sure that the seller knows that yeah the seller goes with you that you're ready to close and you're able to close and you have experience and it will be a smooth transaction. Joe: So we were going to close in … I think it was going to be 30 to 45 days. It was investor money behind it and we were marching along doing very well and then it fell apart again right? You pulled out of one LOI and then the money behind our buyer disappeared. They're … it was a family fund for those listening. It was a family fund and the two people that came forward and were on the call with Ramon and the buyers were fantastic … are still fantastic and I would still work with them if they came forward to buy a business from Quiet Light with either this buyer or another but the general manager of the Family Fund made a decision that he never makes and he said soap operas no I don't think so kill that deal. Just like that, it was gone. And did you call me and let's say vent … did you vent to me on the phone shortly thereafter? Out of stress and emotion, you said that you've yelled at me a few times but I call it venting. How were you feeling when that fell apart quickly and we put it back together obviously because we're having this conversation today but I mean what was going through your mind when you were literally … I think probably what two weeks away from closing this transaction and having an enormous amount of money deposited to your account and life changing life for you and your family. How were you feeling that day? Ramon: Well it was two ways like of course I was disappointed because we put a lot of our work in to it. We were literally two weeks out right? So not only me but the whole team, everybody involved. We moved all our lives around that magic closing date of … in my case it was June 30 I believe or something like that right? It was the end of that month, we were two weeks out and then the deal fell through. So it was just more like man we worked so hard, we were so close and it now falls through. And it shows that there are so many moving parts and in my case or in this case everybody involved wanted to get this deal done but still, something small happened and out of everybody's control and that made the deal fall through. So there are so many moving parts in order to close a deal like this that yeah everything has to fall in place. Joe: It was tough for sure. Ramon: But it was tough and more also that a lot of the employees they got proper chance to sell and they were already in their mind shopping around. And I felt really bad to break the news to them because all this time leading up to it was like okay guys we're almost there, a couple more weeks let's keep the hard work going and stuff like that and then I had to break the news like oh sorry guys we have to move it up again. But I did … I did was you know … I knew that eventually, we'll be able to sell because it's a great website and it's you know … so. Joe: Yeah that's the thing it fell apart for the strangest reason. One, because it was growing so fast you made a very tough but obviously financially intelligent decision and you took a little bit of a risk but you pulled back and said this is growing so so fast. And we're not talking about 10% month over month growth here folks. We're talking 200, 300, 400% month over month growth. So it was an easy decision yet tough on your part because you were disappointing the buyer and making a tough call to me. And then it fell apart but we go back to the value of having multiple calls with buyers in advance of signing a letter of intent. Because this particular buyer he really wanted the business and he had other sources of revenue or investors and he pulled it off. He convinced you and I that he had another path that he'd been working on the whole time. He hadn't gone down to that out of respect for the other buyers but as soon as the other investors as soon as they were out he opened up that other path and went down it very quickly. You and I did the same thing again. We needed to jump on calls with other people to have them instill confidence in us that they could get the job done. And you're right it was June 30 was the initial close date with that buyer and then I think it was near the third week of August where we ended up closing so another six or seven weeks does that sound all right? Okay, so the downside- Ramon: Those were the longest weeks of my life. Joe: I know. But the downside is that they are the absolute longest weeks, days, hours of your lives. Boy that does sound like a soap opera; days of our lives. Ramon: Exactly. Joe: But looking back in the blink of an eye it's gone. The time passed. And you benefited financially from that because you got to hold the business for another let's call it 60 days and got the profit from that business for another 60 days. Ramon: Yeah. Joe: It's almost like a bonus because you closed anyway. Was it worth the extra 45 days, 60 days that it took or do you wish that you went back instead June 30th I would have taken it all day long even today knowing what the end result is closing 45, 60 days later? Would you do it all over again and close on June 30th? Ramon: That's a good question. Probably now, no I would have taken the extra because it's … we're talking about a lot of money. Two months extra of profit plus the buyer increased his offer a little bit as well when the deal fell through. He said I'm working on other things just give me some more time I will be able to close up if you give more time and then he increased his offer also a little bit. Now that everything fell exactly how it was supposed to be yeah I would have taken the money but it was a really good learning experience for me going into this. I've sold a bunch of websites; I bought and sold a bunch of websites but way smaller all in the … not even close to this one. I think the most was like around 200,000 I sold. And then dealing with an asset purchase agreement you don't really deal with attorneys, you don't really deal with a lot of things that now came on my plate. And it was dealing not just with my own attorney but then the other side's attorney and it's just so many people are involved and it was an emotional roller coaster. So I think now looking back its good because now it made me better for the next transactions if that makes sense. Joe: You know most people would hang up their shoes and say I'm done with your kind of transaction sale but you're already focused on growing other businesses, buying other businesses and building up portfolios so kudos to you. You're a young guy you can do that. Ramon: Yeah. Joe: What would you recommend to people that are listening that are in a position to sell their business for a lifetime event sale for them, whether that's 100,000 a half a million, a million, five, ten million dollars; what are the most important things to consider as they begin that process and go down that road, things that you've learned? Ramon: So the thing that I've learned and I did wrong … and you hammer on this on many podcasts is clean books. Clean books people, I made a mistake of having … it was not on purpose it was just out of laziness I think that I co-mingled different websites in what … so I had one LOC, one bank account, one account with Google. The issue is that Google does not allow you to have multiple AdSense accounts. So even if you have 100 websites with AdSense tags on it and all comes down in one Google account. But yeah I had … I bought different content sites in that last three years. I sold content sites. I invested in things all from that one bank account. So thankfully we were able to make it work but it was a lot of work from my end to really … I had to go back literally three years and every transaction I had to … oh this was for SoapHub, no this was not for SoapHub. And then whatever was not for SoapHub I also had to be able to back it up with proof or listing this was for this and here's the proof. And so it was a very tedious, long, stressful work including my CPA and my bookkeeper and thankfully it was able to … we were able to work it out. But I know for a fact in other cases that where people co-mingled and then they had real issues with their valuation. They were not able to get the top dollar because the buyers were not able to really dissect what is the real profit of that company. So that's … learn it from me, I did it. I learned it the hard way. So now I've set up different companies, different LOC's and run everything as clean as possible. Joe: Okay. Ramon: So that's one, the second is read on asset purchase agreements. The first time when an asset purchase agreement got sent to me it was so complicated for me, I didn't know what to look for, what did we have to be in it and then whatever my attorney advised me I basically say yeah well it makes sense why not you know. So the notes of my attorney I just blatantly copied and then send that to the buyer and said this is what we … I want to change in the asset purchase agreement. And then the buyer's attorney they came back with their notes and then went back and forth back and forth. I think now looking backwards now I kind of know what is important. I think attorneys try to … and I understand the reason but they try to overprotect their clients. So my attorney tried to overprotect me, the buyer's attorney tried to over protect them and somehow we have to find a middle. There are tons of examples where attorneys ruined the deal. You probably will have a lot of stories of that. So I think it's good if you kind of get advice from people, learn, read up on it online and see what is really needed and what not. So now I'm working on the deal right now with a great attorney but now I'm more experienced and I can say well this is what I don't want in attorney. I don't … I understand why you advised me that but it's not needed. I've done it before this is not needed and let's just keep it as simple as possible. Because … yeah, attorneys can ruin deals. Those are the two biggest advises. Joe: Well I can agree with you on the attorney part wholeheartedly. I've been in situations where a relative of the seller completely killed the deal. I had a deal where the young guy just out of graduate school and he had a great business that he started in his undergrad and literally graduating from graduate school about to start his professional career and we've got a business that was under contract with three quarters of a million dollars … way way over the standard valuation but there was a problem. The problem was that his mother and father were both attorneys and his wife was a law student and they took that asset purchase agreement, shredded it, and fought tooth and nail for the tiniest tiniest little thing and were completely unreasonable to the point where the buyer who honestly was very reasonable walked away, threw their hands up in frustration. At the Brand Builders Summit you and I attended in Austin a few weeks ago Richard Jalichandra from 101 Commerce got up and he's bought three businesses from Quiet Light in the last six months, eight in all. And their goal is to buy 101 hence 101 Commerce. They've got enough experience where they are going to say look you can only work with this group of attorneys, there's no conflicts … [inaudible 00:36:00.5] have conflicts with us and our legal team. But these attorneys understand e-commerce and contract negotiations you got to work with one of those. It's almost you've got to have a contract attorney that understands fairness and balance and that it has to be a good deal and a good transaction for both sides. So I agree 110% on both of those points. Ramon: Well just to piggyback up that also when you look for an attorney make sure this attorney not only has experience in internet space but also the niche where you are. Because an e-commerce deal is totally different than an asset … a content site where you're just buying an asset or a SaaS, so also try … if you find a … if you go out there and try to find an attorney that can assist you with an asset purchase agreement is see if they have experience in not just internet marketing but also the niche. Joe: Okay. So overall the moral theory is that when you're selling your business it can happen very quickly. We put it under contract very quickly and we could have been through the entire process from listing it to closing inside of 60 days, 75 days tops the first time around. But you made the tough decision to pull back because the growth was astronomical. You made a good decision and you ended up almost doubling your value and that's a pretty huge number when it comes down to it. And not only that you made a lot more money along the way because you still held on to a great business that was doing great numbers and growing. There were times where it was tough and we collectively said look there are multiple options here and one of them is to stop this process, hold your business, take care of your family, take care of your staff, hold the business and keep running it. It got that frustrating at times and that emotional at times because it is a big deal if you sell a business of this size. And again it's actually a big deal to sell a business whether it's 100,000, 500,000, a million, or 10million, it doesn't matter. It does get emotional. I think the number one thing that people need to look for in an advisor is one that will set realistic expectations and that can manage emotions. And not just their own but those of the buyer and those of the seller and sometimes the third parties that are involved with their investors involved as well because no matter what most of these deals go slightly off the rails and it's our job to get them back on. But I couldn't have done it without you, Ramon. You've been fantastic. You've set some new goals in life though so I want to kind of wrap up with this. You and I had a conversation so people understand a little bit more about who you are and what you've accomplished and what you're gonna do in the future. You have a goal to help a certain number of people be successful in life based on the goodness that you've received I think. Is that … am I somewhere along the ballpark? Can you touch on that just briefly if you are comfortable enough sharing that? Ramon: Yes. Joe: Am I embarrassing you by the way? Ramon: Everything I told you you're using against me, Joe. No, I'm just kidding. Joe: Not quite everything. Ramon: I just … as you might know, like I don't really like to be in the spotlight. I never really do podcasts or I had … I made one exception for a news outlet to do it but yes. So because I'm very entrepreneurial I think it's almost … it's your duty so to speak that when you quote unquote get to a level that you have to give back and help other people and which you can help … you know there are millions of ways of how you can help other people. I think for me is that I want to help people … like I see that I was blessed to achieve the American dream so to speak and I want to help achieve other people to to do that as well. And I have a number in my mind, I want to help 500 people not just by helping a … you can pay a year for school or something; no, helping to change really their lives how my life has changed. Like three, four years ago I was really literally going from paycheck to paycheck and not knowing where … how next month is going to look like. And three years ago and now three years later I'm in this position. So change can really happen and I want to help 500 people by … if they have a business idea by funding their ideas and helping them in starting their businesses or maybe I am able to acquire a business and then have somebody run that for me stuff like that. So it's more or less helping 500 people in achieving the American dream by starting their business or helping them grow their business. Joe: Do you write down these goals? I think in talking with Ben the other day when he said he came to visit you in your office that you had some stuff on a whiteboard and he looked up and he said man just incredible goals that you've set and he said it'd be foolish for anybody to bet against you. Do you write these down on a white board? Do you just think about them in your head? Do you hear about a goal setting? How do you … what's your process? Ramon: Yes so I write them down … actually, because I'm about to move today I'm at a house office and because I'm packing, I'm moving next week but I have notes almost everywhere of my goals. So for some weird reason I believe in re-civilization and so when I wanted to buy a specific house that was my dream I would print out pictures of my quote unquote dream house and I will just pin them everywhere. But I have a list of life goals so to speak and yeah I have printed that and that's in my office at the house. Joe: Amazing. Ramon it has been a complete real pleasure working with you for the last eight months. For those listening, we've got somebody that overcame some pretty serious challenges in life. He has been an entrepreneur for 20 years even up for the three or four years ago as he said living paycheck to paycheck, buckled down, worked hard. As my baseball coach used to say … and I was not very good, he always used to say the harder you work the luckier you'll get. And I think Ramon worked very hard, visualized those goals, wrote them down, put them up on the board, and has achieved them. He made some tough decisions along the way. It was not easy. I can tell you that now. Some of it was quite emotional but it worked out in the end. Ramon, it's been a pleasure. Thank you for sharing your story with me and with the audience of Quiet Light Podcast. You're a good man; I look forward to doing business with you for years to come. Ramon: Same here Joe, thanks a lot. Joe: Talk to you soon. Links and Resources: Ramon's Email

John began his career working in politics, including as a writer in the Clinton White House, Office of Presidential Letters and Messages. He was also a Speechwriter in the California Governor's Office during the Davis Administration, and later he became an Attorney. John gave up speechwriting and the law to become a blogger and podcaster! He helps business owners connect with anyone they want to connect with. And they find their businesses grow exponentially because of it. He also owns and operates a website and related Podcast called SmartBusinessRevolution.com where he shows entrepreneurs how to build and use relationships to build more value, revenues and profits in their businesses. John's take on the business: The number one, most important thing that will determine your level of success or failure in business is your relationships. In this Podcast episode John shares his insights on building stronger relationships, and connecting with people that can make a difference in your business. Episode Highlights: John's history as a white house intern, staff writer, attorney and entrepreneur Why “helping first” matters most. How to build relationships without being awkward. How to break the ice with a new group of people. Learn some basic mechanics of talking with people. Making connections brings more value. Why delivering value works best. How making introductions builds value for you. How does John make a living in “networking”. Events where “mixing” is required and new people are attending. How to monetize Podcasting Transcription: Mark: So I remember an event … I think it was three years ago, I was at Pubcon and I had hired a PR firm to be able to help with Quiet Light Brokerage and some things that we were trying … no was it four years ago we were trying to do and I had hired somebody to come with me from a PR firm and she was an awesome networker. I mean she was phenomenal at what she did. And she came out to me laughing at the networking event at Pubcon because she said this is so funny. She's like I'm so used to networking events where everybody's a professional networker and she said people here obviously are not because everyone was looking down at their phones and shuffling their feet and saying I don't really want to introduce myself to anybody so I'm going to pretend like I actually have something to do on my phone. And you know what that was also me. I'm a terrible networker. I'm not really good at it. I'm a natural introvert. Joe, I understand you had John Corcoran and he's a networker and you guys talked about networking. This is an area where I struggle so I'd love to learn a little bit more about what you guys discussed. Joe: You know one of the first things John said was don't fall asleep, don't tune out because it's networking. You can grow your business dramatically by meeting the right people and being introduced to the right people. You don't go at it with that approach ias John's thought it's more just building relationships and those relationships lead to additional connections and relationships that can help grow your business; double, triple the size of your business. It's helped us dramatically through what this podcast we've met so many people. It's broken down doors and they feel like they know us more because of it. The networking that John talks about is exactly the same. It's through all of the different events that we might attend to. And he kind of gives some tips on breaking the ice to make connections and really kind of the Golden Rule approach to networking. It's a fascinating story. John's actually a fascinating guy. He used to work as a speechwriter for … I think it's called presidential letters during the Clinton administration. He did not know Monica Lewinsky. For those listening, I did ask. It was pre-recording but he absolutely didn't know her. Yeah, everybody chuckles poor girl really, seriously. He went to law school after doing that and eventually became a lawyer, practicing attorney and replaced his income as a lawyer by podcasting and blogging and doing that through networking. Pretty impressive guy, great story and I think he can help a great deal with people that don't realize how important networking is in helping other people is to their business at the end of the day. Mark: Awesome let's go right on into it and learn a little bit more about networking. Joe: Hey folks it's Joe Valley from Quiet Light Brokerage and today I've got a very special guest. His name is John Corcoran and he has a ton of experience both as a writer for the White House, as an attorney, and as a networking specialist. John, welcome to the Quiet Light Podcast. John: Thanks to have had me, Joe. Joe: Quite heavy here man. We met at the Prosper Show you're doing that very thing, walking around with a camera and a microphone, networking, talking to people, helping James do a great job there which they always do and I think you've been a big part of that. But that's my intro right there. I need you to tell these folks that are listening all about your background, your experience, who you are, and what you're all about. John: Sure. Well hopefully, people didn't tune out when they heard oh networking I hate that stuff. That's a funny reaction that people have. It's kind of like sales right? We know it's important but we also kind of hate it. And oftentimes that's because we've had some kind of negative interaction or negative experience with it; some guy coming up and sticking you his business card in your hand, in your face trying to sell you on something at a networking event. I'm not an advocate of that. I think there's a lot smarter ways to do it, a lot of tools that we have available. My background you know when I was a kid I moved around a lot. My father lost a job three separate times and each time we had to move across the country 3,000 miles away; away from family and friends. That experience taught me the importance of building relationships in business and it's critically important. And as a result of that, I've had some amazing experiences in my career. As you mentioned right there in the White House, in the Clinton White House years, speechwriter with the Governor of California. I had my own legal practice for a number of years and now I've got a business called Rise25 and a blog and a podcast called Smart Business Revolution. That's really more of my focus now and we bring people together at live events and I really enjoy doing that. Joe: Tell us a little bit about your background in terms of … I'm looking at your bio here and it says you went from party school to the White House. Just for the sake of the people that are listening, how the hell did you make that transition from being at a party school to writing speeches for the president? John: It's strange I know. It's a strange trajectory. So yeah I mean basically I went from an English major, getting a BA in English at a party school to within a year of that I was a writer in presidential letters and messages in the Clinton White House. It's kind of like a second tier speechwriter. I'm kind of like a … you know as a speechwriter has pulled a hamstring then we would step in, that kind of thing. But it was an amazing experience. I had interned in the speechwriting office during college. It was an amazing experience and I went back to college. And networking lesson number one is keep in touch with the people in your network. And once you build a relationship with someone it's really important to keep in touch with them. And so I was back at college, I knew I'd love to get a job at the White House but not all former interns get that kind of gig and so I kept in touch. I would send things from time to time like speeches or articles or passages that I found that I would send to the speechwriters. Not as a way of saying like hey do you have a job for me? But they … it kept me top of mind and what do you know a month or a couple of months later, a year later something like that they reached back out and said hey we heard about this position for you and I ended up applying and getting it. So it was an amazing experience. Joe: Were you taught that or did you just intuitively share information, stayed in touch and tried to help with little bits and informa,tion that you found? John: Yeah looking back I think really it was part of how I grew up and having to be that kid who is new in the class. I remember what it's like to move in the middle of a school year into … I went from Southern California to Massachusetts which is a huge culture shock. From being a kid it was like out at the beach to like dock siders and button downs and stuff like that in Massachusetts. It's a very different kind of culture and showing up in the middle of the school year when everyone had been in the same group of kids for years and years. And so it taught me the importance of being able to go into a new community and be able to make friends essentially. And I did that a number of times growing up and so I just realize the importance of it. And also just with watching my dad struggle when he got laid off a couple of times, the importance of building a network before you need it. You need to have these things so that when the S-H-I-T hits the fan, which it does from time to time, the economy or your company going under or whatever you've got to have that network. You have to have built those relationships first so that you can use them when you need them. Joe: Yeah I think it's essential. There are several mentors in my life that have given imparted wisdom. One of them is along those lines and it kind of goes with what I've recently studied which is a DarrenDaily … they call them DarrenDaily it's a Darren Hardy program, you know essentially it sounds like what you do about speechwriters was you gave something to them first. You didn't expect anything in return. You were giving them something to help them. Hey here's an idea and you were on top of mind because of that. And then you kept giving throughout the year and eventually, you got something back. Maybe it wasn't your intention to get something back but you were there, you were front of mind and you were offering something to them. I find that the same thing applies to what I do. You talked about networking it'll gross folks, don't tune out because of that. Same thing with a broker man, I'm a “broker” right? I'm a business broker. People get sort of turned off by that if they go with the general label of business broker. But more than anything else we just simply try to help. We try to help people with whatever the issue is, with the experiences that we have, with the knowledge that we have, with the relationships that we have. I refer people out all the time helping them connect with bookkeepers, attorneys, whatever it might be expecting absolutely nothing in return. Eventually, we'll run into them at a conference and spend some time with them and build a relationship with them and then they may refer somebody to us or if when they decide to sell their business they'll think of us first. I don't like networking. I don't. I never have. I'm a bit of an introvert. I love doing the podcast because it's just you and me it's not a whole group of people here. I don't have to walk up in a crowded room. I'm a kind of a low talker so people can't hear me. I've got a big microphone now so that helps. How do you advise people to sort of break the ice with a new networking group or a mastermind group or if they're at an event like Rhodium Weekend like E-commerce Fuel like Smart Marketer, like Blue Ribbon Mastermind, and to just walk up to a group of people and start talking? How do you recommend they do that? Just say hey because obviously, they're strangers too? John: Yeah I mean there's a high level and then there's the mechanics of what you use in a physical … a face to face type of interaction like that which also applies to online. You know a lot of networking we do these days can be through tools like LinkedIn or Facebook or something like that where you can really leverage relationships. So I would say first you got to start with okay am I at the right event to begin with? And that requires some really deep soul searching. Are you going in the right direction with your career? And people do pivots all the time. They change, they just … they lose passion for something. So you have to be sure you're going in the right direction because you can't squeeze blood from a turnip. And if you're at the wrong event then you're not going to find the right people there who you're going to want to engage with or you're going to want to talk to. So start with that and then secondly I think you're right about the give approach. You've got to focus on okay I'm going to give, give, give as much as possible and then after that people are going to want to return the favor. And that doesn't mean you should be taken advantage of but it means you should try and deliver value to people first before you try and hit them with a sales pitch. We've all been hit with a sales pitch right off the bat where people tries to get something from us or tries to get us to buy from them and it just doesn't feel right. It sits in our stomachs. So don't be that kind of person. Be a giver first. And then [inaudible 00:11:08.3] talking to people face to face in an event or something like that. Usually, I think people struggle because they over think it and they think okay I want to come up with some brilliant thing that will be related to my vocation, that will get us in a big discussion around what it is I do so that I can sell them on something. Well, the truth is you should spend a lot more time on just more human conversation. It could about hey how about this crazy weather we've been having or when did you get in? If you're at a conference you know where are you from? Maybe it's something on their attire, maybe they have an interesting shirt on or something like that. A lot of times there are little tidbits that you can you can pick out of there and then that gets you into a conversation. And then people leave little breadcrumbs all the time they just require exploring. People will mention oh yeah I was a little delayed my daughter had a volleyball tournament and so I wasn't able to get here when I wanted to. Well, that's a huge opening right there explore that. Go a little bit further and say oh really where did she play volleyball, what was the tournament, what was … how is she doing, what position is she in? Just taking an interest in people will get you really really far. Joe: It almost goes back to our teenage days when our parents told us just to take an interest in the girls and ask questions and it would work out pretty well. John: I know. Joe: We were teenagers and we paid no attention and we got it all wrong. At least I did, I don't know about you though. John: Exactly. I don't even know if my parents gave me that amount of advice so [inaudible 00:12:37.8]. Joe: I'm trying to do with my kids and I know that you're doing something with your son. I saw it on LinkedIn. I love that you're helping him sell some- John: Yeah we're- Joe: It's … I almost said Girl Scout cookies. John: Yeah … oh no, it's Kab Scout. And it's funny he's like a natural born entrepreneur. He just turned eight and loves selling stuff, loves making money and so we're kind of using it as a teaching opportunity. But right there, there's a good example okay. You said I hate networking, a lot of people say that I hate networking but I love connecting with people. They'll follow it up with that and then I'll say okay well what do you think networking is really? I mean it's connecting with people. Maybe you hate being in a room full of strangers and not sure what to say, that's a given and that's fine. I totally get that. A lot of people get uncomfortable in that kind of situation. But me sharing my son's experience and experience we're going through with learning about setting up a website to sell Boy Scout popcorn as a fundraiser you know that's a way of remaining top of mind with people who are in your network on LinkedIn. And people see that and then it's also a way of teaching too because I'm also using it as a teaching opportunity as well. And it also personalizes me. I found … you probably found this too, when people they know more about you personally, a passion, or a hobby that you have or they know something about your kids or something they're a lot more connected to you. And I mean I discovered this a long time ago, long before I had kids. When I asked people about their children before I had kids I would ask too about their children because I notice they would light up. And it just breaks down these walls, breaks down these barriers, it allows you to really accelerate the connecting process so that you get to know that person a lot better and they're a lot more motivated to help you. They start to treat their interactions with you less transactionally and more like a true friend, a relationship; something that they actually are invested in helping. So that's why I do things like that is sharing a little piece … if you share a little piece about your life, it's not everything, but sharing a piece about your life it makes people more connected to me. It makes me top of mind and who knows where it might lead after that. Joe: Right, I couldn't agree more. I saw it and I felt it humanized you and I felt like I knew you a little bit better even though we've only met a couple of times. I was a guest on your podcast, you're a guest on ours, and we met at the Prosper Show. So I totally get it. By way of example a lot of people listening they're either buyers or sellers and they love to monetize things. They say well how can I monetize something? And I want to give an example, I got a text today about two hours before this recording where someone was at an event in Miami and I introduced him to somebody else. They connected and he said to me, he sent me a text and he's like thank you for introducing me to so and so. I feel like I got 1.5 million dollars' worth of value out of that lunch and I'm buying a business from him for much less than that so I feel like I've doubled my money. And they were able to meet face to face for the first time and just get that connection. And that particular individual is making a point of helping lots of different people. I can't give you his name but every time I speak with someone that has connected with him it's not about what they got from him it's what … which they did get it's what he did for them. And that comes back around and it gets monetized in a variety of different ways. Most people listening again are either buyers or sellers thinking how the heck is this going to help me? Back when I sold my business in 2010 there weren't really any Mastermind groups. There were certainly not any Facebook groups. There weren't any Smart Marketer events or Rhodium weekend, any of these things that we go to now and connect with people over and over and over again and it's eventually just a trip to hang out with our friends. Hanging out with those friends now and sharing that information without expectations or getting back anything else is what I think is the way to immaterially monetize it. You can monetize it but you have a hard time calculating it. Do you have any direct experiences or examples where you can say you know I introduced these two people … this person connected with so and so and their business took off because of it? John: Oh … I mean I couldn't narrow it down. I mean I have so many examples of that sort of thing and I do it more than most people. So I don't want to say that you need to spend all your time doing that. There are some connectors who spend too much time going out delivering value, connecting other people. But let me put it this way if you try the alternative … the opposite that certainly doesn't work. We know that doesn't work. If you just go out there and you don't try and deliver value and you just try and pitch people we all know that doesn't work very well right? So if you try the alternative, if you try the give first approach you will see dollars and cents to your bank account, others will see dollars and cents in their bank account. I can think of offhand two situations where I introduced two people to each other, kind of like you, you're just an introduction; no strings attached or anything like that. I just thought you two would get along and they started a business together. In one case those two individuals, they lived in the same state but opposite sides of the state. One ended up moving to the other part of the state so that they could work together and have a business together as a result of that one introduction. And you know those people will walk to the end of the earth for me after I've made that introduction. So it definitely turns into dollars and cents in terms of more clients, more referrals that sort of thing. Joe: But that wasn't your intention right? John: No … I mean it's not my intention but I will say this, look we're all in business, we're all motivated by making money, we want to keep the lights on, we want to keep food in the fridge right? So I don't say at all that you should go out there and you should just be randomly introducing everyone on the street or be doing it matchmaking or something like that. You should do it strategically. You should do it because it's good for your business. I'm not saying go on and do it because for charitable purposes although it is a great thing to do and it does great … it puts great good out into the world. I'm saying do it because it's good for your business. It's good for your career. And it has just been the experience that I've lived. There are great books out there by the way, Give and Take by Adam Grant, Dale Carnegie all the books that he's written. These books they give voluminous examples of people who have resulted in much value coming back to them as a result of the value that they put out in the world. Joe: And you got to a lot of events, a lot of networking events where you have got both business owners, employees, founders, and potential buyers attending them; are there any particular events that you love because specifically the way that it's organized for networking that you can … through off the top of your head, two or three of your favorite events? John: Is this cheating or can I say the ones that we do because they're- Joe: You know people are probably going what the hell does this guy do for a living? It's networking, how does he make money so … answer the question how do you make a living? John: Sure. Joe: You're a networking guy, how do you make a living? What do you do? John: Yeah. So … well, first of all, I was a practicing lawyer for many years. And even when I was a practicing lawyer I mean just introducing your clients is really valuable and giving … thinking about your clients because they will send more business back to you. Your referral partners would send more business back to you. So when I was actually full time practicing law I was practicing what I do today. Eventually, that pivoted into a blog and a podcast which replaced my income as a lawyer and I monetized both of those through a variety of digital courses and through affiliate promotions and that sort of thing. Today I run Rise25 with my business partner. We do live events. We go to conferences and we partner with conferences and hold on connection events like VIP receptions, like dinners, like all-day Masterminds at conferences. Again connecting people but we create the forum. We invite the people. We bring them in. Another thing we do also- Joe: Just to understand so you're not actually putting on the entire event, you're putting on a segment of it or a specific group of attendees. John: Right, and there's an important lesson in that because we've done our own standalone events but the reason that we do a lot of that now … an important lesson for others is it's a lot easier to go where the fish are already gathered to go fishing rather than try and pick some spot in the middle of the lake where there are no fish and attract them back to it. Go to the spot where all the fish are gathered which is what we do around conferences. The other thing we do is we do some Done-For-You lead generation as well. So we do Done-For-You lead gen so helping people with the process that we've used for years to generate leads for our self we help other businesses with that as well. Joe: What types of businesses? John: It's primarily professional services but e-commerce as well. So it's anyone who's … I mean who doesn't need leads right? Every business needs leads whether it's you're trying to connect with someone who might buy your business or whether you're trying to connect with new customers or clients or referral partners or strategic partners or whatever. You know there's a lot of different … the truth is everyone need … and like you're selling like a very inexpensive widget which is often the case with e-commerce there's often someone higher leverage who you are trying to connect with. So that might be other website owners or it might be other people who are selling on the same marketplace as you, or just other sellers that you want to connect with, or other professionals or something. It's a variety of different applications that we'd manage for people. But you asked … so you asked the question earlier was types of events that I'm preferable to. The type of event … and I want to answer that because that's an important question and it actually guides my decision making in what events I go to. I don't like going to events where the culture does not encourage people to mix with one another and what do I mean by that? Oftentimes you have events where at a local … this often happens on a local level like at a chamber of commerce or something like that where you have repeat people coming back month after month and they kind of know enough other people that there isn't enough mixing. I like events personally where I go to an event and I can just stick out my hand and talk to someone or someone else will stick out their hand and just talk to me where you feel free to meet other people. The other thing is I really like formats of events which breaks the mold. They're not just the boring, stuffy kind of reception type of format but I like the ones that are different. So actually just last night we had an event in Chicago which was a VIP food tour and we've done this a number of times, I did one in San Francisco a couple of weeks back and it's like a progressive dinner party meets a networking reception. We kind of combine the two and rather than keeping everyone in one room with watered down drinks and talking to each other all night or maybe being at a dinner table where you're stuck talking to the guy in the right of you and the guy in the left of you for the entire night, we take a group and we take them to multiple locations over the course of an evening. So you're up, you're down; you're sitting next to different people the entire time. You're walking or sitting on a bus next to different people. And we love doing that format because it gets people meeting more people which is really what we're about. So that's another piece of what we do. I realize [inaudible 00:23:45.3] to what we do but you asked the question what types of events so I really enjoy that format. Joe: All right. Tell us about Rise25 and the blog … the podcast and the blog. I want to know more about that. I have a feeling here John that people are going to want to listen to your podcast and learn more about what you do. John: Yeah. Joe: Just … let's hear it. John: Yeah so Smart Business Revolution I started it about eight or nine years ago now. It was a blog and a podcast, it still is. I continue to write there. I continue to publish podcasts. I started … this is an important lesson because now we do help clients with this as well so this is part of the lead generation piece is eight or nine years ago when I was a full time practicing law literally I had a client who came in and he hired me for a tiny little matter. It was $500 of writing a lease for him. I was reading about the guy and I was like wow this is a really interesting guy. He was an entrepreneur. He had started multiple companies one of which had gone public. So he's really successful. I was thinking how can I make … how can I turn this guy into like my best client? You know come back to me over and over again. Literally what I just did is I said hey do you have like 20 minutes I'd love to just like ask you some questions about your career and your businesses and everything. I'm going to record it and I'm going to publish it. I didn't even know how to do that. I didn't even know how to record or publish; podcasting wasn't even a thing back then. And so I ended up doing that, I asked him all these questions. What's amazing is you're publicizing that person. It's exactly what we're doing right now. But you're publicizing that person and you're also asking them questions about their challenges, their opportunities, you're figuring out are there other ways that you can help this person or deliver value to that person? And so what do you know he ended up turning into a great client. He ended up coming back to me and saying hey can you help me with this and this and this other thing too. And it's a strategy that I've used over and over again. I've done it probably three or 400 times with different people where you just simply take an interest in someone else. And you go the extra mile so you actually record it and you publish it and you give them a promotion, give them publicity, you send traffic, you send eyeballs to them. Again it's exactly what you're doing right now. You don't have to have a podcast to do it although podcasting is such an accepted and understood medium these days so that's really the best way to do it today. And I think everyone should have a podcast because it's so powerful. Joe: And you've figured out a way to monetize the podcast and the blog as well which is really weird if we think about the fact that you went to law school, quit to be a podcaster and a blogger and you replaced your income. How did you manage to do that? John: Well so, first of all, you can monetize a podcast … when people hear … I know I just wrote an article about this. I did a research study and I surveyed hundreds of podcasters and I asked them how they monetized their podcast. And so you can go to Smart Business Revolution and you can see the article now. It's at Rise25 also. And people generally thought … they thought of the traditional model, the old school media model. Like I'm just going to build up a big audience and then I'm going to sell ads or sponsorship. And that is only one of dozens of different ways of monetizing a podcast. It's actually probably the worst of all of them and yet everyone thinks that that's what you need to do. It's the most difficult to do. So I mean I've monetized my podcast in a variety of different ways including getting more clients, getting more referrals, filling live events, filling webinars, strategic partnerships; you name it. If you can connect what it is you do which is your business, your profession with the podcast which not everyone does a great job of connecting those two. Sometimes they are completely unrelated and if you have a hobby podcast that's fine that's not what we're talking about here. But if you connect those two and you use them to build more relationships with prospective clients, with referral partners, with strategic partners, you use that podcast in order to build more of those relationships and connect with SALT leaders and gurus and speakers and authors that you would never otherwise have a chance of connecting with then it's an amazing powerful tool. It's … I mean I've been able to have conversations with people who would never give me the time of the day you know what I mean? Like I can't email Gary Vaynerchuk and say hey man I would be in New York can you meet me at a Starbucks for 45 minutes? I want to pick your brain; I'm going to ask some questions about my business. Is that cool? [inaudible 00:28:00.1] like who are you I'm not going to do that but I had him on my podcast even though he's a busy guy because of the nature of the medium. So that's why I'm such a huge fan of the medium it's just … and it's a much better way to network. That's what we're talking about right? Connecting, building relationships, seeing how you can help each other, giving, all of those are encapsulated in the process of doing a podcast and everyone should do it. Joe: I agree 100%. It's what we do; it's why we do it. Because we're connecting with people like you that might be hard to connect to or with otherwise. John: Oh yeah absolutely, I wouldn't return your call if it weren't for that. Joe: I know you're never going to list it … and it personalizes things right? You can write an amazing article, give some amazing advice but without that personality behind it, it's just words on paper. We had people tell us that if they chose someone else to go with someone else it's because they felt like they knew them because they listened to their podcast. John: Yeah. Joe: So I think the personalization of it is important. I think that for those listening that maybe an expert on an advertising business, content, blog, or a SaaS business, or an e-commerce business and you're wondering how the heck do you benefit from this, how would you start a podcast and what … how is it going to work for you? You're going to connect with people that are going to be experts giving advice and you're going to benefit from it in your own business being able to apply some of that advice and being able to pick their brain as well. In addition to other people that have had great success that may come onto to the podcast and share their story and may want to do business with you as well. You just never know what's going to come of it if you just help others and give. And yes it is business we're all in this to put food on the table and hopefully put some money in retirement and stop doing this someday when were not capable anymore but it's fun and it's enjoyable. John: Yeah. Joe: And we get to make a living from it which is kind of nice too. John: Yeah and you know I say it's kind of personal and professional development that also doubles as marketing. Because you're enriching yourself, you're learning, you're asking questions, you're learning and you're also recording it and you're going to put it up on the internet and it's going to exist forever. So it's marketing that will be out there for you forever. And if you're asking well I sell a widget, it … I don't see how that's going to help me or maybe it's some other seller out there that you want to connect with or maybe it's potentially a buyer. I mean that's a great way to use that as a tool. It will help me with hiring, recruitment right? There's so many other ways that you can you can do it. I mean I'm sure Joe you've had this experience, I've had this experience when people come up to me and you have a conversation with them and they're just kind of like smiling as they listen to you talk because you know what's going on in their head they're thinking wow he sounds just like he does in the podcast. And people will say that, they'll be like man you just … you talk just like you do in the podcast. Well, guess what when I'm on the podcast that's me. I'm not putting out an act or anything like that I'm just actually being me you know. And we've had people that would go … a couple of people who came in to our event recently in San Francisco who had gotten to know me from the podcast and the funny thing is … and this takes a little getting used to, the funny thing is that they've been listening on their own time while I'm doing other things to episodes, past episodes, the whole back catalog and when they come up they feel like they've already built a relationship with you. That's wonderful because of the know like and trust process right? You are already that much further along so it then makes it just a lot easier to have a conversation with them around some kind of strategic partnership or a client … a relationship of some sort. It's just a lot easier. You'd move the ball a lot further down the field. Joe: 100%, I couldn't agree more and I would recommend that everybody does it. For those that are going to events and I've been to many of them and I have that stigma of being a broker. We don't pitch at Quiet Light, we're just here to help so we have to get around that stigma some way. But I was at an event last March I think it was and I've had a conversation with two or three other people and this guy walked up and he just stood there and he started to shake his head up and down and you know at the right moment he just stuck his hand out and introduced himself. And that I think taught me a lesson. It's the hardest thing to do when you go to some of these events like this, you see groups of people talking and you'd say damn they all know each other. I really don't know anyone. It's my first time here. The reality is that even though they're talking and having a good time and having a drink and laughing they may have just met. That was exactly the case that night. The three of us had just met and this person came into our conversation not knowing whether or not we really knew each other and he was welcomed into it and that's what these events are all about. You should never be shy about walking up to somebody and saying hello. You should never be shy about talking to someone like John, talking to someone like myself if we have something that we can help with that's our operation. That's exactly what we do. We're going to give you any and all advice we can. And if someone like John and myself try to get their hooks into you for a commission they're the wrong people to work with. Just walk away, get what you can, and move on. But don't be afraid to stick your hand out and shake your hand and just say hello. It starts a conversation. It's the hardest thing to do but it's also the best thing to do wouldn't you agree? John: I totally agree. Absolutely. Yeah. It's just funny as you're saying about having a stigma you know I think a lot of people feel that way. Especially when they're in business which most people are right? You're in business, you're at a networking event and you're thinking oh other people are thinking that I'm just going to try and sell them. I know this because people email me every day about this saying these things. And I think a lot of times we get stuck in our head a little bit and look I mean I totally get it. I worked for politicians. I've been a lawyer. I think I'm going to round up my career by working for the IRS or as a tax professional so just the most detested professions possible. So I'm used to being in that type of position. I totally get it but look if you approach not thinking about okay how am I going to get this person as a client as soon as possible and you approach thinking okay I'm just going to learn about this person. I'm going to learn what I can do if there's some recommendation I can provide. Maybe they're a huge fan of something else I'm a fan of and we can connect over that. That's it. That's all that matters. You're going to build up trust. You're going to get to know them. And then later there might be the possibility of doing business together but start with that first and that gives you a great foundation. Joe: I agree if you do that enough your pipeline of new business will eventually fill up and it will be continually flowing. John: Absolutely. Joe: John, how do people find out more about you and learn about your experience and get to listen to the podcast and things of that nature? John: Yeah, thank you sir. So Smart Business Revolution is the podcast on iTunes, Stitcher, wherever you listen to podcasts. SmartBusinessRevolution.com is the website. Rise25 is the other website and yeah reach out, I love hearing from people who heard me on a podcast so I appreciate it. It's a pleasure being here. Joe: You're a good man John. Thanks for your time. John: Thank you.   Links: John's LinkedIn Profile Smart Business Revolution Blog & Podcast Rise25 Book recommendation: Give and Take by Adam Grant

Two years ago, Brett Curry from OMG Commerce would not have recommended advertising on YouTube. But today, he sees it the way we now look back at Facebook. When cost was cheap and the audiences were huge. YouTube gets a billion views a day, a billion! Brett's company knows all about advertising on paid channels…be it Amazon or the multitude of Google channels. Recently Brett has seen opportunities on YouTube that allow his clients to advertise on a fixed cost per acquisition basis (my favorite)! In this podcast shares what he finds works and what does not. No need to hire his firm…if you want to learn how to do it yourself, good news! He's created a course with Ezra Firestone. See the show notes. Episode Highlights: YouTube has always been a great content platform. How recent ad types make YouTube much easier to monetize. Youtube is used as a product search engine more than people realize. Viewers (and now shoppers) on YouTube are actively doing something, these new campaigns can target people based on that activity. Nothing sells like video if it's done right. Brett explains the pre-roll and true view options. The key tips on how ecommerce business owners can approach the daunting task of video ad producing that can be profitable. Some companies use agencies and others are hiring full time video people in house. Search behaviors are different on YouTube than on google. The integration of the platforms allows for hitting more people in order to make more money. Why Youtube is an invaluable re-marketing platform. If you give Youtube the right audiences to go after and you and you have a video that's powerful, over the time the machine will start hitting that CPA target. These platforms can successfully follow the journey of the buyer. The importance of getting all the campaigns working together and connected. Transcription: Mark: The world of search engines has changed significantly since about 10 years ago right? Google has been the king for a long time. I believe they started around 1997, 1998 and they've dominated and kind of set the tone for what we think a search engine is supposed to be. But in today's world, if you're in e-commerce or if you're in online business in any way you have to think about different avenues for search. For example, Amazon is the number one search engine for products at this point. But the number two search engine in the world is also owned by Google and that's YouTube. For a lot of us especially those who have been in the online world for a long time we sometimes just think narrowly about Google because that's what we've always done. But there's a lot of other opportunities where people are actually searching and have that direct intent and that's going to be YouTube as one of these things that we need to look at. And Joe I guess you talked to somebody who's really been focusing on YouTube as an advertising channel to be able to acquire customers for a business and he gave you some insights into how to use this channel more effectively. Joe: Yeah I spoke to Brett Curry from OMG Commerce. I saw him do a presentation specifically on monetizing through YouTube. I guess the best way to explain this is once upon a time on radio I had a campaign, a niche model called Per Inquiry. And we would pay the radio station per inquiry that converted to an actual customer. It's cost per acquisition that we call it now. YouTube has that opportunity now. So Brett really honed in on advertising physical product companies and doing it cost per acquisition … I'm stumbling like crazy here folks sorry, cost per acquisition on YouTube. It's not something we think of out of the gate when we think of YouTube because we're just watching the latest sports, concert, whatever it might be but people are starting to really use YouTube for searching for products and then clicking that link and converting. There are video opportunities where you only pay if someone watches the entire 30 seconds. That's something else we talked about but the one that excites me the most is the cost per acquisition model when he gets into that detail. Mark: Now I think video is something that all of us need to start opening our eyes to. I think there's just tons of opportunity when it comes to video. And you know fortunately, I think it's a little bit intimidating for most of us. And I say fortunately because if you can get over that intimidation if you can get over some of the worry about “man this is actually pretty expensive to produce” there is a world of opportunity out there if you can start getting it. So I'm excited to listen to this because I've really only just toyed a little bit with YouTube advertising. I haven't actually gotten in and tried to understand it fully so this would be a good primer. Joe: Yeah it's great. And don't fear the production costs folks because some of the best converting videos according to Brett are the ones that are actually customer produced. So consider that in terms of presenting to on YouTube. That's it, I'm done talking. Let's go see what Brett has to say. Joe: Hey folks it's Joe Valley with Quiet Light Brokerage and today I have Brett Curry from OMG Commerce with me on the line. How are you Brett? Brett: I am doing fantastic Joe thanks for having me on the show. I'm excited to be here. Joe: You're also a podcaster too right? You've got a podcast what is the- Brett: Yeah. I love podcasting and usually I'm the one firing off the questions and listening. Honestly, I think listening is the harder job of the two here. So I'm looking for just to talking up a storm here talking about YouTube. Joe: Awesome. Well, I want to talk about a whole bunch of things because I think we met at the … for the folks that don't know we met at the Blue Ribbon Mastermind Conference in Denver. It's part of … I'm going to get that chain of events here wrong probably, it's part of the Smart Marketer Group, right? You guys … how long have you been part of that group with Ezra? Brett: Yeah. So I met Ezra Firestone at a Traffic and Conversion Summit event like six years ago. It was in San Francisco. It's a long time ago. I met Ezra there. He was just launching his Mastermind Group called Blue Ribbon and I thought to myself this is a dude that I need to know. And so we kind of striked up a conversation, I joined the mastermind group, the rest is history. So I think that was I think years ago believe it or not. Joe: And I've been going to mastermind Groups and we talk about them here on the podcast whether it's Rhodium Weekend or eCommerceFuel things of that nature. Blue Ribbon right up there for those listening if you can … if your business is big enough and you've got the revenue reach out. Find Ezra somehow through Smart Marketer probably right? Brett: Yes smartmarketer.com you got to consider it. I'm a huge eCommerceFuel fan as well. Andrew Youderian is a friend of mine. I think they do a killer job but yeah those two are right up there man. If you're serious about e-commerce and growing check out both of those and you're welcome Ezra and Andrew for the club. Joe: And for those listening if you're not in a Mastermind group or you're a buyer and you think how am I going to learn all this? It's through these mastermind groups. They didn't exist for me. I sold in 2010 as Ezra was saying I spoke to him on an earlier podcast. They really didn't exist when I started and now they're available for so many people to get so much more success I think than I had at the time. But listen I want to talk about OMG Commerce. I want to talk about you. You did a presentation at Blue Ribbon Mastermind on monetizing through YouTube and then kind of blew me away with the specifics of that and then all the other things that you do around that at your company. We want to talk about that. Can you give us … the people listening some background on yourself, on your company and how you started, what you do and then I want to jump into that. Brett: Yeah, absolutely. So right out of college in 2002 dating myself a little bit, I launched an agency; a small agency helping local businesses with TV, radio, and print; so kind of traditional old school media. I became a marketing junkie in college and I was introduced to Dan Kennedy and Jay Abraham and some of those kind of marketing gurus. I fell in love with the psychology of marketing and I kind of fancied myself as a copywriter for a little bit. And so I launched this agency, I started doing SEO in 2004 and somewhat just clicked. No pun intended it just fit my personality. I liked it and so I kind of became and SEO nerd. But still thinking about copy and the conversion rate and things like that. And then moved into AdWords and then really things took off in 2012 when I got hooked on Google AdWords and kind of … really we started our agency OMG, my business partner Chris Brewer and I we started the agency in 2010. But 2012 we kind of got hooked on Google Shopping. I wrote The Ultimate Guide to Google Shopping after months and months of testing and perfecting things. Shopify published that and then that kind of helped ignite the agency. And so since then, I've been speaking at events like Traffic and Conversion Summit and Ezra's events in social media marketing world and internet retail and things like that. And so really the agency is built on driving traffic to e-commerce stores and primarily using Google Ads; so Google Search, the text ads, Google Shopping, Display Network, and more recently YouTube. I've always been a fan of You Tube. Recent ad types make it much easier to monetize and much easier to track and create measurable results. So I'm doing a lot with YouTube. And then kind of the other side of the business is Amazon. Helping companies with their Amazon ads as well and so … but I spend most of my time in the Google Ads ecosystem. Joe: Well I tell this story and I'm sorry for the podcasters that have to … listeners that hear me repeat this but you know I spent a lot of money on Google Ads and I didn't have any experience. I didn't have any training. And I think there are too many people out there doing that. They were like me. The problem is that I've discovered is that you try someone who claims to be an expert and in fact, they're not. And they take your budget and they blow it up and you cost per acquisition goes up and your profit goes down and you know this is six months before you want to sell and all of a sudden the value of your business goes down as well. When you get up and presented … I knew first and foremost because you are at Blue Ribbon you are going to be top notch. But then I dug deeper. I sat by Chris, we talked for a while and you talked specifically about YouTube and I know that you can't do that alone and that you've got to package everything else in there. But some of the things that you talked about were … and I'm going to let you dig into it and tell us about it, some specific fix targeted cost per acquisition and only paying if somebody views the full 30 seconds and a whole bunch of things that I don't think is out there for the average person that's doing all of the marketing channels themselves to figure out. So tell us about that a little bit. Brett: Yeah absolutely and I think I'll just … I'll set the stage really quickly if that's cool just talking about YouTube in general. And you know I've been a fan of YouTube forever. It's always been a great content platform. Everybody is on YouTube. A billion monthly users, average session duration is like 40 minutes which is longer though on Facebook. And the cool thing about YouTube is it's full of a lot of learn, do, and buy moments. So if I'm on YouTube I'm actively doing something. I'm looking for how to fix my lawnmower, how to fix my washing machine although I try to avoid that at all costs and just pay people. But if I'm at pinch go to Google or go to YouTube to learn how to do things or researching products. That's something that a lot of people don't know is that YouTube is used as a product search engine pretty frequently where people are looking for unboxing videos and demo videos and things like that. And so … or just you know how to, my kids use YouTube all the time from everything to how to play the piano to … my 16 year old son now is looking at how to pick up chicks which will it make you proud or worried I'm not sure. But yeah you can learn anything on YouTube right? So when someone's on YouTube they're actively engaged in what they're doing and so the beauty of that is you can target people based on what they're doing on YouTube. But then like you alluded to now there's these ad formats that just really make it powerful. And so it's kind of combination now of better targeting than ever before so we can make sure we're reaching the right person better than we ever have before on YouTube. Everybody is there but how do we get to the ideal person for a particular e-commerce business. And then how do we have like a bidding and ad format that people want to click on and want to take action on and we're paying a rate that makes sense. And so that's kind of the backdrop. But yeah, so you talked about only paying if someone engages. That's called YouTube TrueView and so for those that don't know that's the pre roll or before ad. So if you go to YouTube to watch a clip from The Office or something and then there's an ad that pops up before that or the place before that you've got five seconds until that magical Skip Ad button pops up. And so the way that works is if a user skips the ad before the 30 second mark or before the end of the ad whichever comes first then the advertiser doesn't pay. So you know I could watch 28.9 seconds of an ad, click skip and the advertiser doesn't pay a penny for that. And so … or someone has to click through to the sites. If they're watching and they think ooh this is cool I'm going to click on the ad and go to the site and then the advertiser is charged for that as well but really an awesome concept. You know I used to in the previous agency days, I did quite a bit of TV and it was my favorite medium pre … before I got really deep in online marketing just because the power of video right? Nothing sells like video if it's done right and so … but if you're running a TV spot you pay for the spot regardless of if people walk out of the room or change the channel or whatever. With TrueView you're only paying if someone watches or engages so it's pretty powerful. Joe: Well let's talk about … for the people that are listening and that have a physical product and let's say they're just doing Google AdWords and they wanted to reach out to you how did that … how does it start, how … to me the idea of producing video if that's something you've never done is kind of daunting. How do you try to approach that? Brett: Yeah it really is and so this is what separates YouTube from say Google Shopping or Google Search ads which are just the text ads. You know a text ad that you can create in about three minutes. Or if you did research it takes a little bit longer than that but it's really easy. Google Shopping, the ads are pretty easy. There's just data feed involved, there's product feed involved which can be a little bit tricky. But a video, man that's tougher. You got to hire a video crew potentially. You got to hire an actor or you've got to be comfortable on camera, whatever. Ultimately though you really can create a video even using an iPhone if you wanted to but my advice on the video itself is be straightforward first. So I think … because we've all grown up seeing ads we have all kinds of ideas of what works and what doesn't work. So we know the funny Super Bowl commercials that we like and so we think we need to recreate something along those lines right? So I need to come up with something like the what's up guys from Budweiser. I'm a believer in direct response. So that's the type of ad we suggest that you run because most physical product companies if you're not huge a pure branding play is going to be tough so you want something that's direct response. And so I prefer a kind of straightforward approach. But a couple of things you can think about is one, you do need to hook someone immediately. So that Skip Ad button comes up in the first five seconds so hook them immediately. So what do you got to say, what question are you going to ask, are you going to be like running up to the camera, are you going to be doing something interesting to make someone say okay I was going to skip because I don't like ads but there's something about this that I need to watch. So hooking them in the first five seconds is key. I believe you got to lead with the strongest benefit. So what is the benefit that your product provides? Is it time savings or is it status or what is that major benefit and then dramatize that. Bring that to life even if it's just you talking and showing the product. So that's important. You also got to incorporate some social proof. So do you have a testimonial, do you have an endorsement, do you have something … are you endorsed by somebody that is trusted by your marketplace; some kind of social proof. And I think and kind of part of this you want to show don't tell you know. A talking head video can work but you want to show as much as you can. That is few of the things to consider to [inaudible 00:15:24.2] have to get in to but things like [inaudible 00:15:27.5] sort of moving the risk. What are the risks that someone has in their head before they buy? So if you're selling apparel or footwear or something what if it doesn't fit? Then what do I to overcoming some of those objections in the video is important. And then a really strong call to action, so like hey what do you … what do I want you as the viewer to do next? If you leave that … oh but this is just crazy to me, you know most people think “well it's a compelling ad people will naturally click”. Not necessarily, you kind of have to ask them to. Like go here, get this free shipping code, or check out this, or watch this further demo, or join our email list to get a discount; something, some kind of call to action and then push people to do that. And the nice thing is there are some new ad formats that really make those CTA's or calls to action pop. But that's just kind of few of the things that make for a good video. But I admit making a good video is much harder than other ad formats, it just is. Joe: Through your agency do you guys have a referral program … people that you say okay these guys have done a good job and you refer people to agencies or do you find that the entrepreneur is creative and ingenious and can create a video on their own and make it work? Brett: Well, yeah it's interesting. So we're seeing now a handful of our clients are hiring full time video people because of their product videos. So video can be useful on a lot of ways right and different types of videos. So maybe I just have a pure product demo video and I put that on my product detail pages and then I'm cranking out little short clips for my Facebook advertising and then I'm launching maybe YouTube content that I'll try to get to rank organically and then I'm running YouTube ads and I've got someone creating that. So surprisingly this is something that I don't think existed with the size of companies we're working with now. You know kind of two million to 10 million a year and really up to pretty 20 million whatsoever, a lot of our clients are in that range. Those companies now have full time video people. Joe: Okay. Brett: There are a few agencies I could name but we don't do any of the creative work ourselves but I can make recommendations. Joe: So let's go to that assumption then that the client has video … has access to it or produced their own, why YouTube though? Why … like when I go and I search … like I did a search today on how to export a profit and loss statement from Xero because a client said it can't be done and I'd seen it done. I get them all the time. Oh yeah? Well let me send a video. So I did that and I sent him, I skipped the Quiet Light Brokerage banner ad because we don't need to click on it. Brett: Yeah. Joe: But it never really occurred to me to buy through YouTube. So what … people know that when you do sponsored Ads inside of Amazon or you spend money on Google Ad Words or Facebook that there's going to be a certain volume you can get to in return on investment. Is it worth it to advertise on YouTube? I know it has a billion viewers but how many people are really thinking products? And is it worth it; a bang for the buck? Should people be paying attention to advertising on YouTube? Brett: Yeah, the quick answer is this; absolutely. And this is one of those answers that even just probably two years ago my answer would have been a little bit different. It kind of would have been a maybe. Like I said YouTube has always been a powerful platform. If you're a good content creator and you created good content and got organic traffic and then YouTube has always been a good source for running a business. But from an ad platform, I believe it's just become viable for a lot of businesses. I would say most e-commerce businesses should consider it and that's a relatively new development. So aside from everybody being on there and aside from people being actively engaged where like you're looking at how to pull a report from … it was Xero? Joe: Xero. Brett: So how to pull a report, if there'd been an ad related to something like that maybe it would have captured your interest or maybe not. But you can target people based on what they're doing on YouTube plus much more. So, of course, YouTube is owned by Google and so now you can target people based on their behavior that Google sees even off YouTube. So one of the options you have is keyword targeting. So if maybe I've got a new Xero alternative so better than Quick Books better than Xero whatever I'm going to … I want to woo people over to my new accounting software; which sounds like just the worst job in [inaudible 00:20:04.7] accounting software. But anyway we'll [crosstalk]. Exactly, I think I just fell asleep as I was mentioning it. But so then I could use keyword targeting and I could target people looking for Xero and Quick Books and Quick Books Online and Quick Books online tutorial. And maybe I'd even target things like why is Quick Books doing this; like some pain points around Quick Books like Quick Books keeps crashing things like that. So those are some of things people type into YouTube kind of just to find a fix. Well then if I've got the alternative to Xero and Quick Books then I run my pre-roll ad for somebody watching a video on how to fix a pain point inside of Quick Books. So there's this keyword targeting that's based on content on YouTube which is really powerful. But then going to what I alluded to a minute ago you can also target people based on what they're searching for on Google. So I think it'd probably be a toss-up like who has more information about you; Google or Facebook? I don't know really. They both know everything about us. And so I don't know about you, my search behavior on Google is different than it is on YouTube. Often if I'm going to YouTube I'm just watching music videos and stuff like that like sort of as in background even. But I search on Google for all kinds of stuff. So then you can target people on YouTube based on what they're searching for on Google. So if I sell running shoes I can look at a whole host of search terms that someone maybe typing on in on Google and I can build an audience around that and then target those users the next time they're on YouTube. Joe: So it sounds like if someone is doing any paid advertising on Google whether it's AdWords or Google Shopping or whatever it might be that they need to think of YouTube as just what it is which is an extension of Google. They're owned by Google. It is Google. Brett: Yeah. Joe: And all those same tools and resources are there that you just got to think visually. So it's really the last couple of years you started to see your advertising work better and get … Google's getting better at it to allow you to do a better job. Can you give me an example without naming any client names on in terms of what it's done for them so that somebody doesn't go “oh, wow, okay”? Brett: Sure. Joe: And what other channels within Google they're also spending money on? Brett: Yeah absolutely and so I'll kind of mention this first, I think YouTube is for a long time have been good at creating brand lift. So even kind of before some of the new targeting options and before some of the new ad options it was good at getting people to be aware of a product. So we'll use Boom by Cindy Joseph because Ezra wouldn't mind if I talk about it and we run all of the Google ads for Boom. But if we ran YouTube ads introducing people to Boom … let's just say we had no call to action I think at the end which we wouldn't do that but let's just say we did, that would likely cause a brand lift. More people would start searching for Boom on Google. After watching the video they'll be intrigued and say oh what is this let me check out a little bit more. And so that's always been kind of the platform or always been a benefit of the platform. But then kind of beyond that the next thing I would recommend someone to do is look at using YouTube for remarketing. So for people that visit your site whether they go to product detail page only or whether they add to cart and abandon, let's remarket to them. So let's use YouTube as a remarketing platform. And so that's what I've been doing for a while as well, taking our remarketing list like you alluded to all of this is built in the Google ads platform and it's now rebranded as Google Ads, not Google AdWords. So it's all in that platform so we can upload our remarketing list, we can start segmenting that and running YouTube ads to those people. So we typically segment break out site visitors, break out PPC viewers, break out cart abandoners, and kind of have different ads that we run from them. But then kind of beyond that we're looking at a new format called TrueView for action. And you kind of mentioned this before too where you're … this is where you're bidding on a CPA basis. So basically what we're doing is we're telling YouTube hey I'm willing to pay X, I'm willing to pay 100 bucks or 80 bucks or 50 bucks or whatever for a conversion and over time YouTube gets really good at dialing that in. So if you give YouTube the right audiences to go after and you have a video that's powerful over time the machine will start hitting that CPA target provided your site converts as well. Joe: Google TrueView? Brett: So as- what's that? Joe: Did you call it Google TrueView? Brett: It's TrueView for action. So it's a subset of TrueView. So you could just run standard TrueView which is the ad format I talked about before where someone has to watch 30 seconds or the whole video or you don't pay. So that's kind of standard TrueView. With standard TrueView, you're paying a cost per view. So you're telling Google I'm willing to pay five cents, two cents, 20 cents per- Joe: Yeah, risk … there's risk there but it sounds like the TrueView for action is look you're not going to pay unless it converts which is- Brett: Yeah exactly. Joe: But is there volume there? Brett: There is immense volume and that's one of those things where we've seen people be able to scale pretty quickly. So with Boom by Cindy Joseph, we went from not even really a channel to a pretty large channel quickly. And we were able to start kind of dialing in and hitting their CPA target within a couple of weeks. And then it will sustain that now for several months. Joe: What happens in the first two weeks when you're … if you're doing TrueView for action aren't you always hitting that CPA target? Brett: No. So you're not. And you give Google the CPA you want to hit and you set a daily budget. Joe: Okay. Brett: But the machine is experimenting in the beginning. And this is something where this is a little bit different than let's say Facebook ads as an example I know … and I'm not a Facebook ads guy. I don't run … I don't run our Facebook even but I know there is kind of this thought that with Facebook ads you build a bunch of an ad sets and you let them … you know each one spends 30 bucks, if it doesn't convert kill it, whatever. Really search pruning quickly. That doesn't work on YouTube, not with TrueView for action. You need to give the machine time to learn. So you're maybe going to be letting it run for seven or 10 days. Obviously, you could pause it if nothing's happening. But usually that CPA, it's going to be above the CPA initially and then it's going to start getting closer and closer to it. So we found again with the right video, the right targeting you can usually hit your CPA target if you let the machine kind of dial in. Joe: Okay, and you guys don't do any of the Facebook stuff. You're focused on most of the Google platforms and then you do the Amazon platform as well. Brett: Yeah exactly. Joe: And is it because that you integrate the Google Shopping, YouTube ads, Google AdWords, PPC whatever they've rebranded it you integrate them all together. Brett: Yeah. Joe: Do you think they help each other? Is it Google has gotten to the point where is it intelligent enough to pull resources from one to the other to help improve cost per conversion? Brett: Yeah absolutely and then one of the things that Google just really stepped their game up in the last couple years in the last six months even is audience targeting. So being able to apply some of those audiences even to your search campaigns and a few of the audiences to your shopping campaigns. But it is all connected because if you think about it if I'm in product research mode, if I'm looking at buying a new … let's say I'm buying a new [inaudible 0027:37.5] a couple of this things for a house and then I'm researching on Google then maybe after I find a few things I'm going to YouTube to watch a video or some unboxing videos or installation videos now I'm going back to Google. And so what you can do if you've got all of the campaigns setup and part of a … we call it a full funnel approach or a team of campaigns, we're not viewing search and shopping in YouTube as this completely separate entities but how do they work together because they do. So if someone finds us on search or shopping when they don't convert then let's use YouTube as the remarketing vehicle. If someone discovers us on YouTube and they watch a video and they become engaged with us but they don't purchase well then let's add them to a remarketing list and target them with search and shopping ads. Because maybe someone learns about your brand on YouTube they don't buy, their next activity is going to be I'm going to go to Google and search. I'm going to go search for this company now or find out more and so we can target them that way. So that's another piece we look at as we create a list of people that have viewed a video as an ad. And then we layer that into our search and shopping campaigns. And we've seen this … let's just go back to the Boom by Cindy Joseph example; we even created some campaigns where we only target people that have seen a video ad. And a lot of those people then go back to Google and they can't really remember the brand name but they remember seeing the video or whatever like something's caught their attention so they're just they're typing in a bunch of random things. Like make up for older women or you know things that would've been mentioned in the ad. And then we're able to target them because we built a list of people that viewed the video as an ad but actually converted them to research a shopping campaign. So if we just think about it, if we kind of step back and think about our own journey like what's my journey as a buyer? I really just click on one ad and buy. I don't just see one ad for a brand new product I've never heard of and purchase immediately. That doesn't happen. I'm usually going to search for something, be exposed to it, click around, visit, and then see another ad and then convert. So we would … we like to get all the campaigns kind of working together and connected. Joe: So let's say that someone is managing their advertising campaign themselves and business is getting big enough to they want to elevate themselves to more of the captain of the ship instead of a navigator if you want instead of just focusing on one part like the marketing are there resources out there to learn everything you need to learn about for the Google ads platform within Google and outside of it or is it simply your 20 years of expertise that … and what, staff of 17 that allow you to be better than any Tom, Dick, or Harry that's going to try to do it for their own business? Brett: Yes. So I mean there is a learning curve and I think the learning curve is a little steeper with Google ads than it is other platforms potentially. It's one of those things where learning the basics is not that complicated but then seeing how everything interacts and how one change leads to other implications is a little trickier. So there's a little bit of a learning curve but there are some good resources. So on the Google Shopping side, I wrote the Ultimate Guide to Google Shopping a few years ago. Shopify published that. It's totally free. Joe: Do you have to update that on a regular basis? Is it changing? Brett: Yeah, I just updated it a year ago. I needed another round of updates. The core of it is still good but it needs to be updated. Joe: Okay. Brett: I'm working on a course with Ezra Firestone. We launched the beta version on all of Google Ads. So it kind of starts with- Joe: Oh, excellent. Brett: -that foundation of Google ads. Joe: That's what I was looking for and I didn't know that. For everybody listening, I didn't know that by the way. Brett: Yeah. Joe: Because look some people are going to be hesitant to work with an agency. Brett: Sure. Joe: And historically I've been anti-agency although I owned one. I owned a media buying agency specifically for radio back in the day. Brett: Yeah. Joe: And my experience is as an agency owner is that you're going to work really really hard because you want to client to keep spending money because you get a percentage of that money that he spent. So you want them to be successful but as an e-commerce owner, my experience was … God, they blew it, my gosh my cost per acquisition went way up. Everything is destroyed. They're not paying any attention to anything that I said but what you did and what you presented was great and different. So that's … I wasn't going there but thank you for going there. So you've created a course on the Google ads platform with Ezra which will be done when? Brett: So probably by the time this … I don't know when is this is going to live but it will … it's launched in September of 2018 is when it will launch officially. Joe: Okay. Brett: So it should be available here pretty quick. Joe: So people can find that probably on smartmarketer.com right? Brett: Smartmarketer.com Joe: And OMG Commerce I would assume as well? Brett: Yeah well, have some links to it as well. Joe: Okay so let's assume that a certain group of people are going to be I'm never working with an agency and they'll Google and they find that there and they'll get that expertise and training which is exactly what I want. I want people to get the best advice and expertise. Brett: Yeah. And one thing I would maybe add to that is I would recommend that everybody get educated at least to a certain degree. Even if you plan on outsourcing it or hiring internally for it, learn the basics of the platform. Learn how everything kind of ties together. Because then you'll be able to analyze does this agency I'm going to be getting they know what they're talking about, is this person that I'm hiring do they know what they're talking about? So I think as a business owner you got to educate yourself at least on the basics and kind of see how the full funnel works and things like that. But yeah you don't have to hire an agency. You can hire someone in-house and train them up and that could be great for some businesses. Joe: Unless they quit. Brett: Exactly, yeah. That's true, yeah. Good to be diversified a little bit. Joe: I agree. Well listen, Brett I appreciate it, I appreciate your time coming on here just sort of unraveling the mystery of YouTube because again to me I've never thought about buying something there. Now that we've talked and I saw your presentation it's every time I'm seeing an ad and I've actually watched a few which is interesting but I haven't clicked through to buy yet. And I think that that's going to change. And I think that people will get ahead of it and start learning it now and being one of the early adopters of advertising on YouTube. They'll get ahead of the curve like those that focused on Facebook first. Brett: Exactly and I think it's … I think Facebook's going to be a viable ad platform for the foreseeable future. I think You Tube is going to be as well but I would liken where YouTube is now to where Facebook was a few years ago where it's pretty affordable to be on YouTube. Those costs will go up over time as more people hop on to the platform but it's a great place to be. And yeah we've seen from skin care to apparel to automotive to tech; all those verticals in e-commerce are getting good results on YouTube so it's worth exploring for sure. Joe: Fantastic, so YouTube is today where Facebook was a few years ago. Brett: I think so, yeah. Joe: That's a good way to end it. But for anybody that does want to talk to you, I think they can find you at OMGcommerce.com is that right? Brett: Yup OMGcommerce.com I'm happy to chat, happy to do an audit potentially of existing efforts and I'll let you know how we could potentially help. So yeah OMGcommerce.com. Joe: Well put that down in the show notes and if this is out before the course is done we'll go back and we'll put it in the course after the fact so that those that just want to learn on their own and maybe bring it in-house can learn from that as well. Brett: Yeah awesome. Joe: Thanks for your time Brett I appreciate it. Brett: Okay thanks Joe I really appreciate it. [inaudible 00:35:07.7] All right see you.     Links: OMGCommerce Website ecommerce Evolution Podcast – Get to know Brett How to Use YouTube to Scale Ecommerce Ads – Online eCourse

Panel: AJ O’Neal Aimee Knight Joe Eames Charles Max Wood Special Guests: Vitali Zaidman In this episode, the panel talks with programmer, Vitali Zaidman, who is working with Software Solutions Company. He researches technologies and starts new projects all the time, and looks at these new technologies within the market. The panel talks about testing JavaScript in 2018 and Jest. Show Topics: 1:32 – Chuck: Let’s talk about testing JavaScript in 2018. 1:53 – Vitali talks about solving problems in JavaScript. 2:46 – Chuck asks Vitali a question. 3:03 – Vitali’s answer. 3:30 – Why Jest? Why not Mocha or these other programs? 3:49 – Jest is the best interruption of what testing should look like and the best practice nowadays. There are different options, they can be better, but Jest has this great support from their community. There are great new features. 4:31 – Chuck to Joe: What are you using for testing nowadays? 4:43 – Joe: I use Angular, primarily. 6:01 – Like life, it’s sometimes easier to use things that make things very valuable. 7:55 – Aimee: I have heard great things about Cypress, but at work we are using another program. 8:22 – Vitali: Check out my article. 8:51 – Aimee: There are too many problems with the program that we use at work. 9:39 – Panelist to Vitali: I read your article, and I am a fan. Why do you pick Test Café over Cypress, and how familiar are you with Cypress? What about Selenium and other programs? 10:12 – Vitali: “Test Café and Cypress are competing head-to-head.” Listen to Vitali’s suggestions and comments per the panelists’ question at this timestamp. 11:25 – Chuck: I see that you use sign-on... 12:29 – Aimee: Can you talk about Puppeteer? It seems promising. 12:45 – Vitali: Yes, Puppeteer is promising. It’s developed by Google and by Chrome. You don’t want to use all of your tests in Puppeteer, because it will be really hard to do in other browsers. 13:26: Panelist: “...5, 6, 7, years ago it was important of any kind of JavaScript testing you had no idea if it worked in one browser and it not necessarily works in another browser. That was 10 years ago. Is multiple browsers testing as important then as it is now? 14:51: Vitali answers the above question. 15:30 – Aimee: If it is more JavaScript heavy then it could possibly cause more problems. 15:56 – Panelist: I agree with this. 16:02 – Vitali continues this conversation with additional comments. 16:17 – Aimee: “I see that Safari is the new Internet Explorer.” 16:23: Chuck: “Yes, you have to know your audience. Are they using older browsers? What is the compatibility?” 17:01 – Vitali: There are issues with the security. Firefox has a feature of tracking protection; something like that. 17:33 – Question to Vitali by Panelist. 17:55 – Vitali answers the question. 18:30 – Panelist makes additional comments. 18:43 – If you use Safari, you reap what you sow. 18:49 – Chuck: I use Chrome on my iPhone. (Aimee does, too.) Sometimes I wind up in Safari by accident. 19:38 – Panelist makes comments. 19:52 – Vitali tells a funny story that relates to this topic. 20:45 – There are too many standards out there. 21:05 – Aimee makes comments. 21:08 – Brutalist Web Design. Some guy has this site – Brutalist Web Design – where he says use basic stuff and stop being so custom. Stop using the web as some crazy platform, and if your site is a website that can be scrolled through, that’s great. It needs to be just enough for people to see your content. 22:16 – Aimee makes additional comments about this topic of Brutalist Web Design. 22:35 – Panelist: I like it when people go out and say things like that. 22:45 – Here is the point, though. There is a difference between a website and a web application. Really the purpose is to read an article. 23:37 – Vitali chimes in. 24:01 – Back to the topic of content on websites. 25:17 – Panelist: Medium is very minimal. Medium doesn’t feel like an application. 26:10 – Is the website easy enough for the user to scroll through and get the content like they want to? 26:19 – Advertisement. 27:22 – See how far off the topic we got? 27:31 – These are my favorite conversations to have. 27:39 – Vitali: Let’s talk about how my article got so popular. It’s an interesting thing, I started researching “testing” for my company. We wanted to implement one of the testing tools. Instead of creating a presentation, I would write first about it in Medium to get feedback from the community as well. It was a great decision, because I got a lot of comments back. I enjoyed the experience, too. Just write about your problem in Medium to see what people say. 28:48 – Panelist: You put a ton of time and energy in this article. There are tons of links. Did you really go through all of those articles? 29:10 – Yes, what are the most permanent tools? I was just reading through a lot of comments and feedback from people. I tested the tools myself, too! 29:37 – Panelist: You broke down the article, and it’s a 22-minute read. 30:09 – Vitali: I wrote the article for my company, and they ad to read it. 30:24 – Panelist: Spending so much time – you probably felt like it was apart of your job. 30:39 – Vitali: I really like creating and writing. It was rally amazing for me and a great experience. I feel like I am talented in this area because I write well and fast. I wanted to express myself. 31:17 – Did you edit and review? 31:23 – Vitali: I wrote it by myself and some friends read it. There were serious mistakes, and that’s okay I am not afraid of mistakes. This way you get feedback. 32:10 – Chuck: “Some people see testing in JavaScript, and people look at this and say there are so much here. Is there a place where people can start, so that way they don’t’ get too overwhelmed? Is there a way to ease into this and take a bite-size at a time?” 32:52 – Vitali: “Find something that works for them. Read the article and start writing code.” He continues this conversation from here on out. 34:03 – Chuck continues to ask questions and add other comments. 34:16 – Vitali chimes-in.  34:38 – Chuck.  34:46 – Vitali piggybacks off of Chuck’s comments. 36:14 – Panelist: Let’s go back to Jest. There is a very common occurrence where we see lots of turn and we see ideas like this has become the dominant or the standard, a lot of people talk about stuff within this community. Then we get this idea that ‘this is the only thing that is happening.’ Transition to jQuery to React to... With that context do you feel like Jest will be a dominant program? Are we going to see Jest used just as common as Mocha and other popular programs? 38:15 – Vitali comments on the panelist’s question. 38:50 – Panelist: New features. Are the features in Jest (over Jasmine, Mocha, etc.) so important that it will drive people to it by itself? 40:30 – Vitali comments on this great question. 40:58 – Panelist asks questions about features about Jest. 41:29 – Vitali talks about this topic. 42:14 – Let’s go to picks! 42:14 – Advertisement. Links: Vitali Zaidman’s Facebook Vitali Zaidman’s Medium Vitali Zaidman’s GitHub Vitali Zaidman’s NPM Vitali Zaidman’s LinkedIn Vitali Zaidman’s Medium Article JavaScript Brutalist Web Design Jasmine Cypress React jQuery Jest Protractor – end to end testing for Angular Test Café Intern Sinon XKCD Sponsors: Kendo UI Sentry Digital Ocean Cache Fly Picks: AJ O’Neal Continuous from last week’s episode: Crossing the Chasm – New Technologies from Niche to General Adaptation. Go Lang Joe Eames Board Game: Rajas of the Ganges Framework Summit Conference in Utah React Conference Aimee Knight Hacker News – “Does Software Understand Complexity” via Michael Feathers Cream City Code Chuck E-Book: How do I get a job? Express VPN Vitali Book: The Square and The Tower: Networks and Power, from the Freemasons to Facebook by Niall Ferguson My article!

Panel: AJ O’Neal Aimee Knight Joe Eames Charles Max Wood Special Guests: Vitali Zaidman In this episode, the panel talks with programmer, Vitali Zaidman, who is working with Software Solutions Company. He researches technologies and starts new projects all the time, and looks at these new technologies within the market. The panel talks about testing JavaScript in 2018 and Jest. Show Topics: 1:32 – Chuck: Let’s talk about testing JavaScript in 2018. 1:53 – Vitali talks about solving problems in JavaScript. 2:46 – Chuck asks Vitali a question. 3:03 – Vitali’s answer. 3:30 – Why Jest? Why not Mocha or these other programs? 3:49 – Jest is the best interruption of what testing should look like and the best practice nowadays. There are different options, they can be better, but Jest has this great support from their community. There are great new features. 4:31 – Chuck to Joe: What are you using for testing nowadays? 4:43 – Joe: I use Angular, primarily. 6:01 – Like life, it’s sometimes easier to use things that make things very valuable. 7:55 – Aimee: I have heard great things about Cypress, but at work we are using another program. 8:22 – Vitali: Check out my article. 8:51 – Aimee: There are too many problems with the program that we use at work. 9:39 – Panelist to Vitali: I read your article, and I am a fan. Why do you pick Test Café over Cypress, and how familiar are you with Cypress? What about Selenium and other programs? 10:12 – Vitali: “Test Café and Cypress are competing head-to-head.” Listen to Vitali’s suggestions and comments per the panelists’ question at this timestamp. 11:25 – Chuck: I see that you use sign-on... 12:29 – Aimee: Can you talk about Puppeteer? It seems promising. 12:45 – Vitali: Yes, Puppeteer is promising. It’s developed by Google and by Chrome. You don’t want to use all of your tests in Puppeteer, because it will be really hard to do in other browsers. 13:26: Panelist: “...5, 6, 7, years ago it was important of any kind of JavaScript testing you had no idea if it worked in one browser and it not necessarily works in another browser. That was 10 years ago. Is multiple browsers testing as important then as it is now? 14:51: Vitali answers the above question. 15:30 – Aimee: If it is more JavaScript heavy then it could possibly cause more problems. 15:56 – Panelist: I agree with this. 16:02 – Vitali continues this conversation with additional comments. 16:17 – Aimee: “I see that Safari is the new Internet Explorer.” 16:23: Chuck: “Yes, you have to know your audience. Are they using older browsers? What is the compatibility?” 17:01 – Vitali: There are issues with the security. Firefox has a feature of tracking protection; something like that. 17:33 – Question to Vitali by Panelist. 17:55 – Vitali answers the question. 18:30 – Panelist makes additional comments. 18:43 – If you use Safari, you reap what you sow. 18:49 – Chuck: I use Chrome on my iPhone. (Aimee does, too.) Sometimes I wind up in Safari by accident. 19:38 – Panelist makes comments. 19:52 – Vitali tells a funny story that relates to this topic. 20:45 – There are too many standards out there. 21:05 – Aimee makes comments. 21:08 – Brutalist Web Design. Some guy has this site – Brutalist Web Design – where he says use basic stuff and stop being so custom. Stop using the web as some crazy platform, and if your site is a website that can be scrolled through, that’s great. It needs to be just enough for people to see your content. 22:16 – Aimee makes additional comments about this topic of Brutalist Web Design. 22:35 – Panelist: I like it when people go out and say things like that. 22:45 – Here is the point, though. There is a difference between a website and a web application. Really the purpose is to read an article. 23:37 – Vitali chimes in. 24:01 – Back to the topic of content on websites. 25:17 – Panelist: Medium is very minimal. Medium doesn’t feel like an application. 26:10 – Is the website easy enough for the user to scroll through and get the content like they want to? 26:19 – Advertisement. 27:22 – See how far off the topic we got? 27:31 – These are my favorite conversations to have. 27:39 – Vitali: Let’s talk about how my article got so popular. It’s an interesting thing, I started researching “testing” for my company. We wanted to implement one of the testing tools. Instead of creating a presentation, I would write first about it in Medium to get feedback from the community as well. It was a great decision, because I got a lot of comments back. I enjoyed the experience, too. Just write about your problem in Medium to see what people say. 28:48 – Panelist: You put a ton of time and energy in this article. There are tons of links. Did you really go through all of those articles? 29:10 – Yes, what are the most permanent tools? I was just reading through a lot of comments and feedback from people. I tested the tools myself, too! 29:37 – Panelist: You broke down the article, and it’s a 22-minute read. 30:09 – Vitali: I wrote the article for my company, and they ad to read it. 30:24 – Panelist: Spending so much time – you probably felt like it was apart of your job. 30:39 – Vitali: I really like creating and writing. It was rally amazing for me and a great experience. I feel like I am talented in this area because I write well and fast. I wanted to express myself. 31:17 – Did you edit and review? 31:23 – Vitali: I wrote it by myself and some friends read it. There were serious mistakes, and that’s okay I am not afraid of mistakes. This way you get feedback. 32:10 – Chuck: “Some people see testing in JavaScript, and people look at this and say there are so much here. Is there a place where people can start, so that way they don’t’ get too overwhelmed? Is there a way to ease into this and take a bite-size at a time?” 32:52 – Vitali: “Find something that works for them. Read the article and start writing code.” He continues this conversation from here on out. 34:03 – Chuck continues to ask questions and add other comments. 34:16 – Vitali chimes-in.  34:38 – Chuck.  34:46 – Vitali piggybacks off of Chuck’s comments. 36:14 – Panelist: Let’s go back to Jest. There is a very common occurrence where we see lots of turn and we see ideas like this has become the dominant or the standard, a lot of people talk about stuff within this community. Then we get this idea that ‘this is the only thing that is happening.’ Transition to jQuery to React to... With that context do you feel like Jest will be a dominant program? Are we going to see Jest used just as common as Mocha and other popular programs? 38:15 – Vitali comments on the panelist’s question. 38:50 – Panelist: New features. Are the features in Jest (over Jasmine, Mocha, etc.) so important that it will drive people to it by itself? 40:30 – Vitali comments on this great question. 40:58 – Panelist asks questions about features about Jest. 41:29 – Vitali talks about this topic. 42:14 – Let’s go to picks! 42:14 – Advertisement. Links: Vitali Zaidman’s Facebook Vitali Zaidman’s Medium Vitali Zaidman’s GitHub Vitali Zaidman’s NPM Vitali Zaidman’s LinkedIn Vitali Zaidman’s Medium Article JavaScript Brutalist Web Design Jasmine Cypress React jQuery Jest Protractor – end to end testing for Angular Test Café Intern Sinon XKCD Sponsors: Kendo UI Sentry Digital Ocean Cache Fly Picks: AJ O’Neal Continuous from last week’s episode: Crossing the Chasm – New Technologies from Niche to General Adaptation. Go Lang Joe Eames Board Game: Rajas of the Ganges Framework Summit Conference in Utah React Conference Aimee Knight Hacker News – “Does Software Understand Complexity” via Michael Feathers Cream City Code Chuck E-Book: How do I get a job? Express VPN Vitali Book: The Square and The Tower: Networks and Power, from the Freemasons to Facebook by Niall Ferguson My article!

Panel: AJ O’Neal Aimee Knight Joe Eames Charles Max Wood Special Guests: Vitali Zaidman In this episode, the panel talks with programmer, Vitali Zaidman, who is working with Software Solutions Company. He researches technologies and starts new projects all the time, and looks at these new technologies within the market. The panel talks about testing JavaScript in 2018 and Jest. Show Topics: 1:32 – Chuck: Let’s talk about testing JavaScript in 2018. 1:53 – Vitali talks about solving problems in JavaScript. 2:46 – Chuck asks Vitali a question. 3:03 – Vitali’s answer. 3:30 – Why Jest? Why not Mocha or these other programs? 3:49 – Jest is the best interruption of what testing should look like and the best practice nowadays. There are different options, they can be better, but Jest has this great support from their community. There are great new features. 4:31 – Chuck to Joe: What are you using for testing nowadays? 4:43 – Joe: I use Angular, primarily. 6:01 – Like life, it’s sometimes easier to use things that make things very valuable. 7:55 – Aimee: I have heard great things about Cypress, but at work we are using another program. 8:22 – Vitali: Check out my article. 8:51 – Aimee: There are too many problems with the program that we use at work. 9:39 – Panelist to Vitali: I read your article, and I am a fan. Why do you pick Test Café over Cypress, and how familiar are you with Cypress? What about Selenium and other programs? 10:12 – Vitali: “Test Café and Cypress are competing head-to-head.” Listen to Vitali’s suggestions and comments per the panelists’ question at this timestamp. 11:25 – Chuck: I see that you use sign-on... 12:29 – Aimee: Can you talk about Puppeteer? It seems promising. 12:45 – Vitali: Yes, Puppeteer is promising. It’s developed by Google and by Chrome. You don’t want to use all of your tests in Puppeteer, because it will be really hard to do in other browsers. 13:26: Panelist: “...5, 6, 7, years ago it was important of any kind of JavaScript testing you had no idea if it worked in one browser and it not necessarily works in another browser. That was 10 years ago. Is multiple browsers testing as important then as it is now? 14:51: Vitali answers the above question. 15:30 – Aimee: If it is more JavaScript heavy then it could possibly cause more problems. 15:56 – Panelist: I agree with this. 16:02 – Vitali continues this conversation with additional comments. 16:17 – Aimee: “I see that Safari is the new Internet Explorer.” 16:23: Chuck: “Yes, you have to know your audience. Are they using older browsers? What is the compatibility?” 17:01 – Vitali: There are issues with the security. Firefox has a feature of tracking protection; something like that. 17:33 – Question to Vitali by Panelist. 17:55 – Vitali answers the question. 18:30 – Panelist makes additional comments. 18:43 – If you use Safari, you reap what you sow. 18:49 – Chuck: I use Chrome on my iPhone. (Aimee does, too.) Sometimes I wind up in Safari by accident. 19:38 – Panelist makes comments. 19:52 – Vitali tells a funny story that relates to this topic. 20:45 – There are too many standards out there. 21:05 – Aimee makes comments. 21:08 – Brutalist Web Design. Some guy has this site – Brutalist Web Design – where he says use basic stuff and stop being so custom. Stop using the web as some crazy platform, and if your site is a website that can be scrolled through, that’s great. It needs to be just enough for people to see your content. 22:16 – Aimee makes additional comments about this topic of Brutalist Web Design. 22:35 – Panelist: I like it when people go out and say things like that. 22:45 – Here is the point, though. There is a difference between a website and a web application. Really the purpose is to read an article. 23:37 – Vitali chimes in. 24:01 – Back to the topic of content on websites. 25:17 – Panelist: Medium is very minimal. Medium doesn’t feel like an application. 26:10 – Is the website easy enough for the user to scroll through and get the content like they want to? 26:19 – Advertisement. 27:22 – See how far off the topic we got? 27:31 – These are my favorite conversations to have. 27:39 – Vitali: Let’s talk about how my article got so popular. It’s an interesting thing, I started researching “testing” for my company. We wanted to implement one of the testing tools. Instead of creating a presentation, I would write first about it in Medium to get feedback from the community as well. It was a great decision, because I got a lot of comments back. I enjoyed the experience, too. Just write about your problem in Medium to see what people say. 28:48 – Panelist: You put a ton of time and energy in this article. There are tons of links. Did you really go through all of those articles? 29:10 – Yes, what are the most permanent tools? I was just reading through a lot of comments and feedback from people. I tested the tools myself, too! 29:37 – Panelist: You broke down the article, and it’s a 22-minute read. 30:09 – Vitali: I wrote the article for my company, and they ad to read it. 30:24 – Panelist: Spending so much time – you probably felt like it was apart of your job. 30:39 – Vitali: I really like creating and writing. It was rally amazing for me and a great experience. I feel like I am talented in this area because I write well and fast. I wanted to express myself. 31:17 – Did you edit and review? 31:23 – Vitali: I wrote it by myself and some friends read it. There were serious mistakes, and that’s okay I am not afraid of mistakes. This way you get feedback. 32:10 – Chuck: “Some people see testing in JavaScript, and people look at this and say there are so much here. Is there a place where people can start, so that way they don’t’ get too overwhelmed? Is there a way to ease into this and take a bite-size at a time?” 32:52 – Vitali: “Find something that works for them. Read the article and start writing code.” He continues this conversation from here on out. 34:03 – Chuck continues to ask questions and add other comments. 34:16 – Vitali chimes-in.  34:38 – Chuck.  34:46 – Vitali piggybacks off of Chuck’s comments. 36:14 – Panelist: Let’s go back to Jest. There is a very common occurrence where we see lots of turn and we see ideas like this has become the dominant or the standard, a lot of people talk about stuff within this community. Then we get this idea that ‘this is the only thing that is happening.’ Transition to jQuery to React to... With that context do you feel like Jest will be a dominant program? Are we going to see Jest used just as common as Mocha and other popular programs? 38:15 – Vitali comments on the panelist’s question. 38:50 – Panelist: New features. Are the features in Jest (over Jasmine, Mocha, etc.) so important that it will drive people to it by itself? 40:30 – Vitali comments on this great question. 40:58 – Panelist asks questions about features about Jest. 41:29 – Vitali talks about this topic. 42:14 – Let’s go to picks! 42:14 – Advertisement. Links: Vitali Zaidman’s Facebook Vitali Zaidman’s Medium Vitali Zaidman’s GitHub Vitali Zaidman’s NPM Vitali Zaidman’s LinkedIn Vitali Zaidman’s Medium Article JavaScript Brutalist Web Design Jasmine Cypress React jQuery Jest Protractor – end to end testing for Angular Test Café Intern Sinon XKCD Sponsors: Kendo UI Sentry Digital Ocean Cache Fly Picks: AJ O’Neal Continuous from last week’s episode: Crossing the Chasm – New Technologies from Niche to General Adaptation. Go Lang Joe Eames Board Game: Rajas of the Ganges Framework Summit Conference in Utah React Conference Aimee Knight Hacker News – “Does Software Understand Complexity” via Michael Feathers Cream City Code Chuck E-Book: How do I get a job? Express VPN Vitali Book: The Square and The Tower: Networks and Power, from the Freemasons to Facebook by Niall Ferguson My article!

Lianna Patch is funny. Not everyone can stand up in front of 150 entrepreneurs and make them laugh, respect her, and want to hire her all at the same time. Yet – that's exactly what she did when I attended the Blue Ribbon Mastermind event in Denver last month (August 2018). When Lianna shares her passion, which is writing copy infused with humor that converts, people make more money. How? Their customers stay on page, get engaged in, and actually read what you write. Oh, and then they buy your product, write reviews and spread the word about your brand. Humor makes people like you. So why not write copy infused with humor? Because you are not funny. Me neither, at least that's what my kids tell me (what do they know…). It is a skill we don't all have, clearly. Episode Highlights: What Lianna does to help clients who come to her with the need for something new. How her techniques to boost add-to-cart conversions as well as purchase conversions. Why it is important to message-match across the board, through the entire purchase and follow-up process. The importance of building the relationship so that if the product is a one-off perhaps that client will be swayed to purchase other items. Lianna shares the biggest mistakes people make when writing online copy. Steps business owners should take to improve copy and what should be first on the list. What makes certain checkouts places that people want to revisit again and again. The importance of grammar and how intentionally not using perfect grammar can work if done the right way. Why Lianna thinks being buttoned up is a thing of e-commerce past. How to grab people's attention with web copy content. Transcription: Mark: Joe you spent a lot of years in the direct response world specifically within the agency world and buying radio ads right? Joe: Yeah. Yes, I did brought a lot of copy. Mark: Brought a lot of copy and this is an area that we're going to talk about today, writing copy. I find for myself when I have to actually write copy it's a completely different mindset from pretty much everything else and it can be difficult to do. Lianna Patch and she is a professional copywriter for specifically conversions right? Joe: Yes Lianna Patch did a presentation at the Blue Ribbon Mastermind in front of 150 entrepreneurs and she writes copy that conversion … calls herself a conversion copywriter which I think is brilliant. I'm sure it's a phrase that lots of people have heard but for some reason, it is brand new to me. Although that's what I did, that's what my contractors did back in my radio days and my online days. But what she did was she infused comedy into her presentation and she infuses comedy into her clients' websites, their emails, their … all of their different campaigns and Mark it works. I'm telling you the presentation was fantastic she gave some examples of what the before and after copy was like and it just made me want to read it. When you go to her website it just makes you want to stay on the website and poke around and look at different things. And throughout the whole podcast, I keep going back to her website and giving examples that I think are just hilarious and make me want to keep reading. And I don't think enough of us e-commerce entrepreneur or SaaS entrepreneurs whatever you want to call yourself infuse the human factor and a little bit of comedy into your content so that people realize you're not just some big corporation that's sending your standard email. It makes a big difference I think. Mark: Absolutely, any time you can get somebody to laugh that's going to loosen them up and also to disarm them a little bit from that and accessible as well. That's fantastic. You need to make sure you send me her website so I can take a look and enjoy some of the copy as well. Joe: Yeah there's some great ideas there you can get right from her website. But this is important stuff, right? Our first line of engagement with our customer is content. There's going to be some visual stuff but there's usually some content as well. So anyone listening that has any online presence or hopes to buy one and do better than the previous owner I would strongly recommend they listen to this entire podcast. Mark: All right, well let's get to it. Joe: Hey folks it's Joe Valley at the Quiet Light Podcast. Thanks for joining us today. Today I have a very special guest, her name is Lianna Patch. Lianna, welcome. Lianna: Thank you so much for having me. Joe: You are apparently funny, you're from Punchline Copy. I saw you … I know you're funny because I saw you at the Blue Ribbon Mastermind. There's no question about being apparently funny. Lianna: Okay. Joe: You said some pretty vulgar sayings in front of a big crowd of entrepreneurs and you could have fallen flat on your face or they all could have laughed out loud. And you did it within like the first 60 seconds and I- Lianna: I did. Joe: We all laughed out loud so thank you. Lianna: I'm so glad. Joe: It made us very comfortable being audacious ourselves so thank you for that. And I've looked at your website and I want you to tell folks about yourself but then I'm going to just like comment on a few things as well. So the for the folks listening instead of me doing that introduction, that fancy thing, why don't you tell us who you are, what you do, and what you're all about? Lianna: Sure. So I'm a conversion copyrighter which basically means I don't just make stuff up I base my copy on customer research and what people need to actually hear. And on top of that, I use humor as a tool to help mostly e-commerce stores and bootstrap software businesses connect better with their customers and retain customers longer. Joe: Conversion copywriter, wow. Lianna: Yeah. Joe: I love that. Did you make that up? Lianna: I did not. Joe: Somebody else coined that phrase? Lianna: I believe we can attribute it to the great Joanna Wiebe. She is a fabulous copywriter. I'm pretty sure she came up with the term conversion copywriting. She's the most well-known one. Joe: Okay. Lianna: And I met her in her first copywriter mastermind. Joe: And we will attribute it to Joanna Wiebe. But conversion copywriter really stands out and tells people exactly what you do. It's pretty quick and pretty direct to the point. Lianna: Yeah. Joe: And you infuse it with humor so I just want for people that are not watching this video on the home page of your website … where is it, it says… oh, I've got to scroll down a little bit, where is it. All right there's something that says something along the lines of … oh my God it's gone I'm on the wrong page. Really. Anyway, it says something along the lines of blank blank blank AF and it's right there in your face funny as AF. And for those that don't have teenagers and don't understand … I'm sorry for those that don't understand what that means ask your teenager because they do. You have a knock knock joke on your website as well and it says “Knock knock who's there and the answer is a shitload of money.” It's all good. It's all funny and it converts. So tell us about some of the experiences you've had with people that have terrible copy and how you fixed it and what kind of impact it has on their end mind revenue which is what folks are really looking for. Lianna: Yeah. My favorite type of client to work with is someone that comes to me and says okay we did the thing where we hired a professional copywriter and we come off like really cool and corporate and solid and we hate it and it's not working and we need to be more personal and funny please help because they already know the value. They already know that humor is going to help them connect better. So one example that I have been talking about a lot lately because it's exciting … and it's an e-commerce brand that sells wedding rings, it's called Manly Bands. And I came in and worked on some of their product descriptions. And they already have a super fun brand. They were already using humor throughout. I like to think of them as like the Dollar Shave Club of wedding rings but their product descriptions were very short. And they were kind of funny but they weren't really converting. So I went in, wrote longer descriptions, which is funny for some people because they think oh short copy is better. People don't like to read, people will read if you give them a reason to. And we made them funny and we made them personable and kind of weird and they boosted conversions almost across the board; both add to cart conversions and purchase conversions. So that was a really great test result to just be able to point to and say “hey look it works”. Joe: That's great it's a … you know I'm old school direct response, I used to sell stuff on radio. We'd write a 60 second spot ad that had to convert with someone actually calling the 800 number. I started in 1997 as I said before but you have to write copy that converts and get an action. So I love the conversion copy and it's measurable. You also talked about not just on the website where people are looking at the product description, not necessarily in the cart things of that nature. But you really if you have a client and can touch every aspect of their branding campaign do you hone in on the and if yes what kind of things do you do? Lianna: I do try to so I work more on the … I work closer to the purchase and post purchase for attention. That's kind of my jam. So I do a lot of emails. And I really feel like emails are one place we can use humor the most because it's the ability to build that one on one connection. You can be so personal, you can be so weird and funny in email and people will … you know even if it's coming from a brand they'll be like I like this. It feels like a real person in my inbox. Of course, it's top of funnel, sometimes you can scare people away with humor if you go about it the wrong way. It just depends on your brand and how willing you are to test those kinds of things. But if I can I'll address all of those touch points because they should be cohesive. There's got to be a message match between the ad, the landing page, the follow up emails, you know the eventual sale or whatever it is that you guide people to. Joe: I think the instinct of an entrepreneur that's building a brand is to give the impression to the end customer. The first impression is to that hey we're a real company, we're doing things in a very professional manner; which kind of may be boring. I just had a business that won on a contract fairly quickly with multiple offers and his customer service emails and responses were “hey thanks for helping the little guy we're here just taking care of my son join us and really … really appreciate it” that kind of thing. Lianna: Yeah. Joe: I think that does resonate. I think using the word feel, it feels like a real person behind the email. Lianna: Yeah. Joe: And really reaches out and helps them quite a bit. So you will touch all aspects of it from … if you can. From the website to … I mean from the email to conversion, would you do follow up emails after the sale as well and work out as well all aspects of it there? Lianna: Yeah. That's actually one of my favorite things to work on. I was just talking to my friend Val Geisler, she's an awesome email strategist about this and we were talking about especially with e-commerce businesses so many people are neglecting the long term post purchase follow up sequence. So someone has bought once and then they just get thrown back into this regular newsletter or sales email cycle. And there's no like follow up and say like hey do you want this product that sort of corresponds to what you bought. You get the review ask emails every now and then or take a survey but there's like two to three emails max after the purchase and then you just get lumped into existing customers. There's no specific long term nurture track to get you back for that second purchase. So that seems like a huge opportunity for most e-commerce stores and for humor because again they've already bought from you once. Now is the time to build the relationship more. Joe: And it's not just spamming them with emails if you're writing good content that's funny and enjoyable and they like reading them. They're probably not going to unsubscribe. Lianna: Right. Joe: Perhaps. Lianna: Right and you can test your sending limits like if you start to see a higher rate of unsubscribes back off; that's not rocket science. Joe: So I did a podcast early in the week with a guy named John Warrilow and he's written several books and he has something called the Value Builder System. And it's all about creating recurring and repeat revenue in your business and I would think that what you're doing is helping build the relationship with the customer so that if they sell a one off product … you said earlier you know hey maybe you might be interested in this too, that follow up email sequence keeps them engaged and maybe perhaps will help them become a repeat customer and buy an additional product along the way. Lianna: Yeah. Joe: [inaudible 00:10:58.9] Lianna: Yes and even if it's something that they might not need to of … I hear this a lot from mattress companies, I've worked with a few mattress companies you know A. they have other product lines. They have bedding and pillows and things like that accessories. But B. even if you move into a different business completely, if you've built those crazy rabid fans they'll follow you to whatever you do next. Joe: So you've mentioned Man Rings was the first one or something like that. Lianna: Manly Bands. Joe: Manly Bands, I love it. Lianna: It's great. Joe: And a mattress company, so I mean very very diverse product categories here. What other kind of physical product companies do you work with? So that people listening can say oh yeah okay she can help. Lianna: Oh yeah, clothing … I like to work with clothing. Honestly, any consumer product I think is really fun. I have to obviously believe that there's a benefit to it. I've had people come to me. Especially in the supplement world, I'm a little skeptical sometimes of actual benefits. So I like to try the product first and say can I get behind this? And if I can then I'll happily write a copy for it not that I can't but I will. Joe: You know I wish we met …. what is it a decade ago now right? I sold my company in 2010 and boy you would had fun with that. I sold a colon cleansing product. Lianna: Oh great. Joe: We started selling colon cleansing on radio back in 2002 and a TV infomercial in 2003. It went 100% online in 2005 and ultimately built a digestive wellness center around it. Lianna: Okay. Joe: But boy you would have had some fun ones. Lianna: Is that like colon cleansing from the outside in or from the inside out? Joe: Well that's from the inside out. Lianna: Okay. Joe: No it wasn't [inaudible 00:12:39.2]. Lianna: That's easier to sell. Yeah, okay. Joe: And it was … you know for those listening I mean you can't … you think what's fun about my product? You can't … you have to be serious about it something like that. We try to be serious about it and I think it was okay. We got lots and lots of testimonials and people would actually love to be … strangest thing ever people, when we produced a TV infomercial we had a producer travel around the country following up people to give testimonials and they'll actually get on camera and talk about their bowel movements and it's just crazy. And you would have had a great deal of fun with it and we could have made more fun of it and made it more enjoyable for all I guess. But I mean you can … from what I've seen [inaudible 00:13:21.0] for your presentation you kind of make every little aspect of it fun so that the entire feeling of the company is joyful and fun. For instance, the 404 redirect that you put up on the screen at Blue Ribbon Mastermind, can you describe that for the people? Lianna: Yeah so that's one of my favorite places where people aren't expecting humor, to just give them a joke or something weird. And this is … what was it called? I think it was eventcenter.uk or something. The site's not there anymore but it's oh no you hit the wrong link this isn't here choose one of our developers to fire. And it's four guys and if you click one of them he puts his head down in his hands and the rest of them looks relieved and then it says oh no he's only been working here for six months. He was just an intern like you're so horrible. And then it redirects you back to the homepage. Joe: Keeps people on the site versus you hit a 404 redirect … oh my god, this guy is terrible and you leave. Lianna: There's so many great ones, NPR has one too that's oh there's nothing here but here's a bunch of other articles about missing things. And there's an article about like lost luggage, Jimmy Hoffa … you know our retirement, things like that. [inaudible 00:14:28.0] for them like. Joe: That's fantastic. What would you say from your experience and the clients that you've worked with, what would you say are some of the biggest mistakes that they make when writing copy? Lianna: One of the biggest mistakes no matter what industry you're in is making the copy all about you. One of the easiest ways to fix that is to go through it and say how many times do we say we or I versus you the reader because they should always know what's in it for them while they're reading. Joe: Ok so back on the focus of the customer, what kind of things have you seen happen when people … if they want to take one, two, or three steps and try to improve their own copy? Is that step number one? What are the things should they do to try to make a big change and what areas should they focus on first? Is it the tagline on their website? Is it the email? Is it something in the cart? What do you focus on first? Lianna: I'd like to focus on whatever is closest to the actual purchase. So that's going to have the biggest effect on revenue if you can improve your checkout, not just copy but UX. If you're using something that's not an out of the box thing like Shopify you might have some serious UX issues in your checkout that you don't know about. What else- Joe: You're infusing humor in the copy in the checkout? Lianna: If I can. Joe: If you can. Lianna: I was just talking about this this morning. It's interesting how things connect. I think it's Shopify doesn't really let you change the form instructions or form auto-fill like the placeholder text in the checkout but that can be hugely persuasive. And it's a great place to run tests because you can just change something like email address to your email address or your favorite email address and that can have a huge impact on conversions. And obviously changing copy on the buy button can have a big impact too. But all of those things come standard or you can't tweak them unless you're a custom coder. And I think even then it's hard to get that stuff developed so I don't know that's been like a pet peeve of mine with certain checkouts. Joe: You want to be able to touch everything and change it and make it better. Lianna: Yeah because there are … I've been through some check outs that are just delightful and it makes you want to keep going even if it's a multiple screen checkout. There's a … do you know Cards Against Humanity? I've mentioned that at the talk. They have actually a fortune cookie company. Joe: Oh they do? Lianna: It's called OK Cookie and the fortunes are horrific. I have one over there that says you will die at an Arby's in Columbus, Ohio. That's the kind of fortune you get from them. But their check out process is just written the same way that all their other copy is which is very informal. Like pop, your email address in here hit this button to whatever and it can be as simple as a verb change to make people think oh a real person touched this. This isn't just a robot that's going to take my money and maybe not send me these cookies that will make me sad. Joe: Again going back to how the end customer feels in the process. Love it. You talked about grammar and that it's not always best practices to have proper grammar. I think … you know I was in the remedial English class in high school. I didn't have Mrs. Henderson I had Mrs. Lane and she was a step down so my grammar is always kind of poor. We were at a friend's house, I've got 14 and 16 year old boys and the neighbor was copied on an email because … it has something to do with the kids, the kids who are here and she asked my son if he'd already sent that. And he said yes, she goes oh there was a grammatical error and blah blah blah. And it's still read very well, it felt good and it was like from a teenage boy. And you can tell it was from a teenage boy. And the intent was good and I never would have corrected it. And she tried to after the fact you intentionally will misspell things and misspeak or misspoke whatever the case might be from what I can hear and what I've seen is that correct? Lianna: Yeah. Joe: Can you talk about that? Lianna: Yes and if it's a weird thing to say because I spent so long as first a copy editor and then a content editor. So I've been like in the nitty gritty line level proofing and the overall structural editing for so long and I was such a stickler for such a long time. And then eventually I had to let go because my heart rate was getting nuts. It just wasn't … that was great for me physically. But I think it's important to do it intentionally so that it doesn't come across as an oversight. So for instance, if you're going to put in a misspelling like I just said gonna, I didn't say going to. Technically you know that's an allusion it's mashing two words together, cutting off the end of a word, that's intentional. It comes across as intentional. Misspelling a word in a subject line can be intentional done the right way. The example that I gave was spelling M-O-R-E more as M-O-A-R because that's kind of internet speak. That's obviously intentional. Even when subject lines do go out with actual unintentional typos they tend to get higher open rates. I just saw one from Wistia they're having an online conference called CouchCon. And there's a subject line with “its” and there should have been an apostrophe in “its” and I marked that unread in my inbox for days because I was like I want to know if they did that on purpose. I don't think they did. Joe: I don't think- Lianna: They got a bunch of replies. Joe: I don't think I would have known if it was proper or not but did I just hear you say that subject lines that have misspellings or grammatical errors actually have a higher open rate? Lianna: Sometimes I mean every … like if you're talking to any conversion copywriter they're going to be like it depends no matter what you ask them. So I have to just give that disclaimer right now; it depends. But I personally have seen it. Lower case subject lines often get a higher open rate because that's the kind of email we receive from our friends and family. We don't bother capitalizing subject lines, especially not title casing each word which I think that's officially dead now in the email marketing world. I haven't seen a ton of emails in my actual inbox so definitely in my spam folder. Joe: You've never inquired on a Quiet Light listing because I know that with my follow up drip campaigns I will capitalize the first letter of each word in the subject line. I need to stop that is what you're saying? Lianna: [inaudible 00:20:21.1] test for you just … yeah start running an alternative version of each of those emails with A. more [inaudible 00:20:26.2] well, if you were to do a true test you would just uncapitalize the rest of the sentence but you can try more conversational subject line. Then I could do a whole thing on subject lines so I like them a lot but yeah making- Joe: So it's the first point of contact- Lianna: Yeah. Joe: And it never occurred to me to chill out a little bit and be more casual even though you know we were … and hopefully anybody listening will take this and apply it to their own business but we are online business brokers. We're selling businesses for a million dollars or whatever the case might be and sometimes we think we've got to be buttoned up and serious. We're working with entrepreneurs. We all work remotely, around the country, around the world in Brian's case and we try to be professional and serious but we can be professional and casual and funny at the same time. Lianna: Yeah. Joe: [inaudible 00:21:09.9] on our subject lines. Lianna: There's a scale I think you don't have to go- Joe: Are you telling me to loosen up? Lianna: A little bit. I mean you … do you have that top button undone? Is that a- Joe: I do. Yeah. Lianna: See we're great, yeah, no tie. Joe: It's hot. Lianna: I don't think [inaudible 00:21:22.6] video so I just look like garbage so you know. Joe: I'm in North Carolina, Lianna is in New Orleans did I say that right? Lianna: No. I'm going to … no. Joe: Say it, give it to me. Go ahead. Lianna: New Orleans born and raised. Joe: You actually have to enunciate it? Lianna: Not New Orleans. New Orleans. Joe: New Orleans not New Orleans. Lianna: [inaudible 00:21:42.3] people say New Orleans. Joe: All right it's New Orleans. Lianna: Never New Orleans unfortunately. Joe: Okay all right. Well, we're both hot and you know figuratively anyway. And that's why I have my top button undone. What other things can people focus on besides of the subject line, some of the stuff in the first point of contact with customers, what other little weird places do you think that they could focus on and try to be a little bit funny or a little more personal that the average person wouldn't look at that you've seen? Lianna: One of my favorite places to look at is copy surrounding a call to action. So any time you're going to ask somebody to do something you should probably be addressing their objections and previewing what's going to come next. And it's really nice to see a human and funny touch around the ask. So I can't member if I mentioned this when you saw me speak but I wrote a call to action to start a free trial for a software product. And normally underneath you would see small text that says no sign up required or credit card required or whatever your information is safe with us that kind of standard objection reducing stuff. We wrote … oh I wrote a copy there that said we do ask for your credit card but it's just because we love online shopping. It's just a little reward for someone reading to feel like okay all right we're good. And obviously, that person has to have a sense of humor because if they take it seriously then they're not going to sign up but who is your target customer is that a person without a sense of humor? No. Joe: Again personalize it, make it feel better. I'm looking at your site now and I must have moved my mouse off the screen and something popped up and it says I'd love to email you and there's three O's in the word love. Lianna: Yes. Joe: Now what is down below there, it says subscribe now and then nah, fam. Lianna: Nah, fam? Joe: What does that mean? Lianna: It's a no thanks, it's another way to say no thanks. So you can just … it's good to know that it's not coming across entirely clear to everyone. Joe: Well. Lianna: It's like you can sign up or no, fam. Joe: But I can tell like a human wrote this which is again exactly what is supposed to happen. And for those again listening and not watching so this … all of you have this exit intent … exit pop ups on websites. This one is personal and funny and I'm actually reading it. Normally I just X out, but now I'm reading it because you spelled the word love wrong, no fam; I don't know what that is. And I believe it's you in the image. Are you drinking coffee out of a box? Is that what's happening there? Lianna: Drinking box wine. Joe: Yeah. So there's a picture of Lianna sitting at her desk, her laptop is open and she's got a box wine up above her head and she's boozing it up. It's very very entertaining and it made me stop and look at it where I go to all of your websites whenever I'm doing work with you and if there's a pop up I generally just quick X as quickly as I can. So very cool just one other- Lianna: Yeah that's a great place the exit intent pop up is so hard to get people's attention and people often think like you know I have only two sentences or I have to cut my offer just $20 off and it has to be no longer than that. But I worked with a client we … this is for my other business SNAP Copy so it's me and my business partner James Turner, we optimized his opt in offer to get people on his list for free planning. He runs a productivity website and the headline that we ended up going with was hey don't leave without your goodie bag. And it was boosted opt-ins by 129% and there was some additional copy and it was a pretty long paragraph of what they were going to get when they signed up. But people read it and signed up a lot more than they did when it said get free planners. Joe: Hey don't leave without your goodie bag and it was an online thing just to get people to sign up and was there like I [inaudible 00:25:19.8] a goodie bag as a swag bag when you go to an event like Blue Ribbon Mastermind. What kind of goodie bag was it? Was it just something you could get electronically? Lianna: Yeah it was a digital goodie bag. It was like free weekly agenda or a free monthly planner. He has a lot of free resources like that. Joe: But he didn't say free gift it said hey don't leave without your goodie bag? Lianna: Yeah. Joe: Simple. You think it's simple but it's- Lianna: Yeah. Joe: People get too buttoned up I think. Lianna: Finding new ways to say also the things that people are already accustomed to because we've seen free gifts so much, we've seen claim my deal a lot. I feel like that's kind of … it's still working because it's very clear but if you can find another way to say something that doesn't obscure the meaning of the copy then it'll get people's attention. And they're like oh I haven't seen that before. Joe: Okay. So pretty simple stuff but not something I think everybody can do. You have a special skill. You're funny, you actually do stand-up comedy as well right? Lianna: I do. Joe: You do. Are you funny? Of course, you are right? Lianna: People … you know I feel like I want to write a bit about that but it might be to hack because there have been better comedians writing bits about that. But someone did that to me the other day she was like so I don't get it you do stand-up but like you're not funny right now. And I was like maybe I'm not inspired. Joe: Ah. Lianna: You're not a good audience, I don't know. Joe: I'm glad I didn't say that. I think what you do is fantastic. You know back to my radio direct response days I would write 60 second ad copy and we would be able to get direct responses; how many people called in when we gave out that phone number after 60 seconds. And so we knew exactly how well the copy worked. You're a conversion copywriter so you found a way to do the same thing and boost conversion when somebody visits a website or open emails and things of that nature. Do you find your clients doing split testing with your copy against with the original copy or things of that nature or did they just say this is really good it's funny let's go ahead and just put that in place and then they see how it works for a week or do they do an actual split test? Lianna: If … so this is like this is where the cobbler has no shoes because I should be making sure that they do that but sometimes my clients are in that stage between small and medium business where they don't really have the team to split test appropriately or like they don't want to learn how to use Google Optimize, Optimizely, or any other split testing tool. So usually it's we see how the control over the original copy was doing then we implement the new copy and it sort of functions as the test and we see what the lift is; the uplift or downlift usually. Usually up. Joe: Usually up, okay. Well, I had an experience many many years ago where we had … when we take the phone calls and someone didn't want to buy the product we would get their name and address and would send them out this simple little trifle brochure. Really simple, black and white or I think there was blue and white and you could tell that it was somebody stuffed the envelope and we hand wrote it and it went out. It was from that person that you talked to on the phone. We had a consultant come in and say oh that's not very professional, we need to step it up, we need to get a multi unfold brochure, colors and charts and graphs and all this stuff and of course we have to print out the addresses and make a professional. And conversion dropped by at least 50% and it was a real eye opener because it was in that personal touch and feel. Lianna: Yeah. Joe: And so I think everything that you said up on the stage at Blue Ribbon Mastermind made me want to have you here because I've seen it firsthand and I know how much a word here and there and a feeling here and there converts. And it's really tough online, it's getting easier and you know hopefully some of your work is being tracked with before or split tested and so your clients know. But I think that all I know is when I go to a site like yours I want to stay on it and I want to look. Lianna: Good. Joe: As opposed to a pop up like I know you got a rubber chicken being cut in half and blood spurting, it's cute and funny so I love it. I think what you do is fantastic. How exactly would people reach out to you? Is it simply punchlinecopy.com? Lianna: Yeah. Joe: Can they get a sort of assessment? How do you work with your clients? Lianna: Yeah so I have different product test services on my site. Sometimes people just need … they want to use me as like an ad hoc email copywriter for instance. They'll come in and like buy one or two emails and they'll say rewrite my abandoned cart email because again it's close to purchase. Or rewrite my welcome email so I get fewer unsubscribes when I add someone to my list. So I have one off emails, I have something called upper cuts which is where I do an audit of your landing page from my heuristic perspective. So I'll take any customer research data that the clients have for these kinds of audits; the more the better. But I'll just look at it and say like this UX is garbage like this photo doesn't open, I can't zoom around the product, the call to action isn't visible enough from far away. And then I'll rewrite the copy line by line. And then I also do custom projects and I've got an intake form there. Yeah, there's a lot of ways to work with me. Joe: Can you be funny in a sponsored ad or a Google ad? Do you work with anybody in those regards? Lianna: I don't do a lot of top of funnel acquisitions. Joe: It's a little tricky. Lianna: I've tried … I mean I've done it. I haven't run ads for my own business in forever. I probably should but I'm the first result for funny copywriter so who needs to? Am I right? Joe: So one other simple clean example is again … and people could just go to your website and go oh that's cool, that's cool, that's cool, and get some ideas. Again punchlinecopy.com but you know folks you probably have a chat now talk to us little thing down in the lower right hand corner of your website so somebody can chat with you. Lianna's has a picture of her. Lianna: It's a bit [inaudible 00:30:59.5]. Joe: A caricature of you and it says you there and it has you looking up over the little pop up bubble as opposed to the standard stuff which is great. Again it's personal and makes it me want to click it just to see if you are there. Lianna: Awesome. I'm not because I'm doing this but I just- Joe: Everybody go to Punchline Copy and click you there and see what happens. Lianna: Or send me an email. Most of the stuff on my site that I think people like the most is just stuff that makes me laugh because I thought it was hilarious to have that little thing pop up in the corner. Joe: I like it. I like it all. Well, I think it would be great if some folks can use your sevices. Lianna: Yeah. Joe: And we have people on that I think can help more than anything else whether that's somebody that is in the process of trying to grow their business and make it more valuable or some of that's going to buy one and tweak it and make more valuable than what they bought it for. And I think copy is so essential because if it converts you are a … again conversion copywriter that just gets them more value for the money that they spent on advertising. Lianna: Yeah. Joe: So it is fantastic, we will put your details in the bottom of the show notes so people can reach out to you and any last minute thoughts on copy that people should think about [inaudible 00:32:18.1] got here? Lianna: I mean I always want to challenge people to just try a joke somewhere. Like take your most boring email in any of your series and go in and add a joke or add an aside, you know add a PS that's kind of weird and see what happens. Joe: Just to see what happens add a PS; I like it. Lianna: Yeah. Joe: Well PS folks thank you for listening to the Quiet Light Podcast, I appreciate it. Lianna, thank you so much for your time. You are awesome. Lianna: Thank you. And so are you. Joe: Well I appreciate that thank you. Links: PunchlineCopy.com Punchline's Facebook Page Lianna on LinkedIn

Ryan Daniel Moran was a preacher-in-training turned entrepreneur. He moved to Austin with little to nothing to his him name, and launched Amazon businesses that he eventually sold for over 8 figures. Ryan did us all a solid – really – by documenting and sharing his journey. The Freedom Fast Lane Podcast helps entrepreneurs at every stage of their business, from startup to exit. In this interview, Ryan shares his top three “mistakes”, or as discussed, things he wishes he did differently as he looks back. He openly shares his story and journey, in the hopes that other entrepreneurs do things to maximize the value of their business (and life). Through Ryan's conference, Capitalism.com, he helps bring like minded entrepreneurs and experts in the ecommerce space together to build brands and businesses that last. While he may be a preacher-school-dropout, Ryan still has a way of delivering the goods when it comes to advocating doing the right thing…so good things follow. Episode Highlights: [1:25] Who is Ryan Daniel Moran? [4:38] Is it better to buy or build? [6:43] Ryan thinks we're in a “seller's market” [8:05] What are Ryan's “mistakes” and what would he do differently. [11:30] Does it matter if you like your buyer? Does likability matter? [13:52] The likable buyer story…who won out over an all cash buyer. [15:12] Mistake # 1 – playing the short term. [17:25] Mistake #2 – telling people what to do and diminishing their talent. [18:51] Ryan shares his staffing team numbers. Inhouse and remote. [20:06] Mistake #3 – Ryan wishes he spent more money on advertising, customer acquisition, and brand building. [22:51] Why is a 100% Amazon business worth less than a Shopify store? [24:00] What channels would Ryan expand to – beyond Amazon.com [25:30] The first “nut you have to crack” [27:02] Ryan disagrees with Joe! [30:40] Brands last, product businesses don't. [31:06] Should you be thinking about a possible exit at all times? [33:05] What gives Ryan the “goosies”. Ok…he didn't say goosies, that was JLo. [33:58] Know what you will do with your money before you sell! [36:10] Should you plan your next brand before you sell, or stay focused? [39:29] How do you get more Ryan Daniel Moran Transcription: Mark: So if I could go back in time I would do a number of things different than I did in my entrepreneurial past especially before I sold my first company. And I have told you the story before that when I sold my first company I sold it for $165,000 only to find out that a year later the same person who bought the company got an offer for 350,000 without changing anything about the business at all. So … and there's a lot of regrets I have by not going back in time obviously I think anybody would like to have that ability. Joe: I'm glad it's that instead of saying you're bringing me on as a business partner. Mark: Well, you're here so I can't … I might not say that to your face. Only when you're on vacation and I have somebody else filling in as guest host. Joe: Well, Jason doesn't listen to the podcast, let's talk about him. Mark: Right. Exactly. Joe: Conversation … no regrets there. Yes and Daniel Ryan Moran was our guest and he talked about some of the regrets or as we called the mistakes because that's how he learns in life as many of us do by making mistakes and in trying not to make them over again. Fascinating … fascinating yes they're our podcast today Mark. I don't know if you recall … if you were there for his presentation at Smart Record over the last summer in Austin but he got up on stage and he spoke for 60 minutes with no script, no PowerPoint presentation and everybody was captivated. And the information that he has in it … volume of entrepreneurs that he works with and the velocities, and the approach, and everything about the way he does business and the way he literally … I mean not literally, preaches business. Okay, he's a … he was going to be a preacher so I want to say preacher school dropout. He chose to be an entrepreneur instead but the way that he talks about things is spot on with the way that we see the most successful entrepreneurs run their businesses. They focus on a number of different things and they implement those and maybe someday if they choose to exit they're in a great position to do so. Ryan talks about all of that including his own two exits that combined totaled over eight figures. Mark: Daniel Ryan Moran, same Moran that comes from Freedom Fast Lane right? Joe: Freedom Fast Lane Podcast where he talks about his story. You know five years ago he had a car and he drove to Austin, Texas and he decided he was going to launch an Amazon business and record his journey. And his journey is not over yet. It's on a new adventure, a different larger adventure but his journey kind of came to a new chapter after selling the last Amazon business that he had. But he talks about it all the way through on the Freedom Fast Lane Podcast. He got tired of seeing people do things the wrong way and learned ways to cheat at conferences and started to do his own conferences through capitalism.com and bringing good like-minded people together that build strong foundation long term value businesses and he talked about all of that today. Mark: Fantastic I can't wait to hear it. Let's go to it. Joe: Hey, folks, it's Joe Valley from Quiet Light Brokerage and today I've got somebody that a lot of you might know already. His name is Ryan Daniel Moran. Ryan, welcome to the show. Ryan: Joe thanks about having me in, let's make some magic. Joe: Listen I was having a barbecue last night we had some friends over and this is an absolute true story and one of them is an entrepreneur wannabe. She's in the corporate world and she bought some Amazon products and she tried something and it didn't work but she's going to go at it again someday and she's grilling me … she always asked me how things are with Quiet Light Brokerage and she starts asking about the podcast. I said yeah we're doing all right and hey have you ever talked to Ryan Daniel Moran just like that and here you are today we're talking to you. You're kind of a little celebrity I should say … little, you're kind of a celebrity; a rock star maybe for this … look it was a 50 year old woman. She's rather attractive and she knows who you are. Ryan: Well you know it's like my ideal market is attractive 50 year old women. We all know that that's the market I'm after right now. So tell her to give me a … maybe call me maybe. Joe: She loves listening and the fact that you're first and foremost helping people that's what she loves about it. She says someday she's going to get back to it but she loves listening and she's going to take that leap at some point in the future so good for you. And listen as I said prior to the intro we don't do fancy intros. So if you would … I know it's hard to talk about yourself but give folks a little bit of background about yourself; who you are, where you came from, and what you're all about. Ryan: Yeah. I invest in and I start physical products brands. And the way that I got to that point was actually as a pastoral student back in 2006. I built my first website and started my first business in between high school and college on my shared dial-up computer in my living room and hand coded websites using raw HTML in a software program called Dreamweaver. If you are old enough to remember Dreamweaver and you know it well. So what's funny is we hear a lot of people who are talking about building and … or selling businesses thinking about the good old or either like all the opportunity is gone now or the good old days have these … man, I was hand coding websites in Dreamweaver on a dial up computer. Do you realize how much more opportunity we have now being able to build websites on platforms and sell products on Amazon? So the opportunities are way way bigger now but I was just trying to find a way to supplement my … what I expected to be $30,000 a year salary as a pastor. Now fast forward a few years I did not finish the pastoral route for reasons that would be probably best left on a second podcast that you have Joe that's going to be called quiet skepticism. Joe: Yeah, some kind of … something where we're helping people, we're guiding them off that path right. Ryan: Exactly; quiet go to the light we'll call it. And I did not finish that route and I became a full time entrepreneur. So I was in really involved in the internet marketing space for many years until I really decided or realized I hated that crowd. I didn't like hanging out with those people. So I was like what a conference where those people hung out and I took the skill set that I had from Search Engine Optimization from Pay-Per-Click Marketing from Email Copyrighting and I applied it to physical products brands. And I've had a couple of different exits in the physical products world and now I'm an investor in physical products businesses because it's what I know. It's who I can help the most. And I think it's one of the biggest upside is in the market right now whether you are selling or building a business or buying a business, I think there's a tremendous amount of white space with the transition from big brands into more what I call micro brands mostly Internet based that's where I see the biggest opportunities right now. So that's a … I've had a couple of exits and the total over billed were eight figures in cash exchange. I still own a minority stake in a few of those businesses and have a portfolio business but my primary focus is investing in physical products brands and I have a media company for entrepreneurs at capitalism.com. Joe: Okay, so when it comes to investing people look at buy versus build. In fact, we had a podcast recently with our newest broker Walker Diebel who wrote about a book called Buy Versus Build and there's a really long subtitle and it was a … it quickly rocketed to the top 10 podcasts that we have. And you're talking about investing, do you think it's better to buy versus build at this point in your career or would you recommend somebody that's just starting out to scrape some dollars together and bootstrap something and start? Ryan: Yeah, it's better for me to invest but it wasn't better for me five years ago. In 2013 when I took my first sale on Amazon.com for a physical product I know business investing in physical product brands. I know businesses buying physical products brands now … back then I was buying a lot of websites. And you know what I was buying Joe? I was buying search engine friendly websites with email lists … social media followings weren't this big back then, but with audiences, followings targeting each market that sold affiliate products; because that was what I knew. Joe: That's what you knew. Ryan: I would have been a lot of people who are like looking for the system and that you are the system. You are the machine. And your machine is unique to you. So applying your machine to different opportunities is where value is created. So for me, I'm … at this point, I have more upside as an investor because I already have all the retail connections. I have the connections to sell businesses. I'm connected to other investors. That's my own skill set but the entrepreneur who I invest in is way better suited to start that company than I am and that's what capitalism is. Where I get the value that I bring in combination of the value that you bring and when we bring them together it's greater than the sum of our arts. And so for me yeah I'm … I have more value as an investor but to say like it's better I think would be a mistake. Joe: You know I think you're absolutely right. It depends upon the individual's situation without a doubt. I bought and I've sold and I've invested as well and I can say each were successful in their own way and each were very very difficult in their own ways as well. You'll learn along the way from the mistakes mostly. Ryan: If I could Joe I will add though, I mean globally I think we're in a seller's market. I think we're looking at buying versus selling if I give it a binary choice I do think we're in a seller's market right now. Joe: I have to agree with you 100%. When we have a good quality listing come … I had a conversation with someone this morning who wants to buy. And he's a referral from somebody who already bought and this guy is doing great so I want to do what he's doing. And the response is look when a great listing comes along you need to be prepared. So the more listings you look at the more you're going to know the right shit when it comes along. And you need to be able to act fast because you and a dozen other people are doing the same thing and they're going to make an offer on that business. So I agree it's a seller's market but at the same time, the multiple still don't get pushed too high. It's still the buyer to decide that. You and I as sellers, as brokers can pick whatever number we think the value of the business is but we don't make the final decision at the end it's usually the buyer. The seller's got a lot to say about it because they can say yes or no. But it's still the buyer makes the decision in terms of the value for the most part. But you just recently said you've exited a couple of different times in the last few years. What did you learn in that process if you look at the exit? Or maybe do you want to talk about the fact … the mistakes you made maybe building and what you can do to help the entrepreneurs that are listening or perhaps the exit and maybe a little bit of both. Ryan: Yeah well, there's one thing in particular that I think was on the stake if you will and it was thinking that the buyer had all of the control. By the way, this is C money right here or by a … my … he is the one who wants to make great on the Internet. Joe: For those listening and not watching somebody just walked into the background. Ryan: Yeah, so the mistake that I made was thinking that the buyer had all of the control. And if I could redo this Joe, the truth is if you built something, if you built a business you're the one with the asset. You're the one with the goods that money is chasing you, people want to buy you and so often the seller comes into market and is like the thing that I'm after is the check and I'm hoping that I get the check and that immediately puts you in the frame in which you're the after. You're the one who is not in the power position. So we share them with an offer and the seller is like thank you please oh please Mr. Money Pants I would like your money. And now they're in a position to beat you up over earnings, over … in the negotiations. So what I wish I had done was recognize the fact that I'm the one with the goods. I'm the one with the asset that people want. I'm the one courting the offers. People are making offers to me. There they want one I got not the other way around. So if you're in that position and you're willing to say no and you combine that with the turn ship that says here's what I'm looking for, that to me puts the seller in the frame of mind repair and the negotiating position. I didn't do that. I discovered that after the fact and I really could only have learned that by going through the process. I learned … I personally learned by making mistakes and paying for them later. Joe: We all do. Ryan: Yeah but that's a mistake that I wish somebody had told me before I went to market. Joe: Or is it … the buyer that you're referring to is it a strategic buyer or did you have your business officially listed and people came to you? Ryan: Yeah, we had it listed and we were acquired by an equity group. I still own a minority stake in that company and I'm in great terms with the equity group. I'm really happy with the buyer. I have become friends and obviously business partners at this point. But had I gone to the market with terms that I wanted I probably would have ended up in a more favorable financial position when it came to closing. Joe: Well, the next time you have a transaction you'll know that and you'll be able to make adjustments. Ryan: Right. Joe: Really I think like you said the check isn't the end all, it's more about … I think almost in many ways what your next adventure is going to be. I know that a lot of folks that I work with and myself included when I exited I was just … I sold too late. I was emotionally tired and I think that's the absolute wrong time to sell. You should sell … you should plan to sell, just don't wake up and decide to sell. But when you're emotionally tired you're not doing everything that you can to maximize the profits of the business and that's going to drive down the value. And you're going to get beat up at the end if you're so committed to that check that you can't negotiate a little bit more for something else and be willing to walk away from that buyer if they're if they're not a good buyer. And correct me if I'm wrong but just tell me how you think here, I always find that it makes an enormous difference if you like the person that's buying your business or the one … if you're buying a business from. It's not just about the check. It's not just about the money. It's the people you're doing business with. And I think that as a seller you can get more value if you're respected and professional and likable and the same as a buyer, if you're a buyer and you're professional and likable and complement the owner on the business that they built that you're going to get a better transaction out of it versus all the hard core raw street negotiations. What are your thoughts on that? Ryan: I don't know if you are right or wrong because I intentionally don't do business with people that I don't like. [crosstalk 00:15:45.7] Joe: So, therefore, anybody that wants to buy a business from you if you don't like them then you've got to do that to work with somebody you like. A classic- Ryan: I don't think everybody has that mentality though. I think I would even go as far as to say the majority of people are buying and selling based on numbers or like the deal and very few entrepreneurs get to find every purchase as a person. And so I think most people are approaching it by numbers and logically rather than is there a connection here. I personally … just like for the protection of my own lifestyle am willing to say no to anything that I personally don't like. And what that does is it always puts me in a strong negotiating position because if I don't like somebody I have no problem walking away. And the person who has … the person who is most willing to walk usually has the upper hand in the negotiation. Joe: I agree 100%. I find that from a buyer's perspective one of the questions I get a lot from buyers if I'm up on a panel or speaking or something like this is how do I negotiate up against an all cash buyer, somebody that's got more money than me? And the tried and true answer is really is be likeable. It's … you don't necessarily have to have more cash to get the deal done and I … the classic example is I sold a business last fall. It was about two and a $2.5M and the guy had two full price offers within the first 10 days. One was from an all cash buyer who was a little rough around the edges and was hard to work with. The other was from a really likable guy who was buying with an SBA loan and actually required 10% seller financing in that. The entrepreneur, the seller of this business had the choice; you could go for the all cash or you can go for the guy that he liked. He actually chose the full price SBA buyer and chose to carry a 10% seller note versus working with somebody that he didn't like. So in that situation, I think it makes a difference in terms of … buyers that are listening be likable. If you're working with a broker you absolutely have to be likeable because they're … as you said it's more of a seller's market. And there's a lot of buyers out there. There are buyers that are competing for that same business and when they're likeable they're going to build rapport and when you build rapport you sometimes learn about things before they hit the market as well. Ryan, talk to me about some of the mistakes you've made in your own business. Maybe two or three of the biggest mistakes that comes up at the top of your head. Looking back and learning damn I screwed that up if I ever do that again I'm going to it a different way. Ryan: Well, every time I've made a mistake it was because I was playing the short term. So when I have made short term decisions I usually make bad decisions. I like to say that the longer term that I can make decisions the wiser I am and the better decisions that I make. I said before that people forget that behind every purchase is a person … that goes for customers too and all relationships are long term relationships. Or the best relationships are long term relationships. So if you are aware that behind every transaction is a person and you play it like it's a long term relationship you end up building the better company. Sometimes in spite of a short term decision, meaning … for example as we're recording this there's a … in the Amazon there's a thing we're calling review gate where Amazon is coming in and hit them onto your businesses and removing their reviews. And it's been a bloodbath. It's been absolute bloodbath. And the people who are soaring through it are people who have been doing of the right things the right way for the longest. And the people who are being hurt the most are the people who are the most profitable over the last couple years because they played the tactic game. And like there's absolutely room for tactics inside of every business but those who have been building really solid brands and building audiences and building followings they're going to soar right through this and capture a whole heck of a lot of market share. So the mistakes that I made were always in saying what's the Band-Aid solution here rather than building for the long term. So we take a rule now in the business that we're building, we say okay here's the situation that we're in rather than talk about how we're going to fix it let's say what do we wish we had started doing 90 days ago and that would have made today a lot easier to get through? That's the decision that we need to make today which is a really hard conversation to have when you're in reaction mode. But we force ourselves to ask that question because it usually addresses whatever the root cause is that we need to fix rather than going for a Band-Aid solution. So that being mistake number one, mistake number two would be as a leader telling people what to do. There's a great book called Multipliers that really morphed my brain in terms of how I can affect [inaudible 00:20:52.9] people. And what I realize after reading that book was that I have been diminishing the talents on my teams by telling people what I wanted them to do rather than casting a vision and inviting people to build their piece of that. Now that seems kind of a nuance and maybe overly simplistic but I couldn't emphasize enough the accountability that this book brought me on how much I was diminishing the people that I was working with, And the difference in energy and growth that happened once I started correcting those issues. So as an entrepreneur, we often have like our baby that we're bringing in to our team and we're telling people how to build the baby when reality if we're working with smart people they'll probably own that area of expertise better than we can even if we can't see it. And the big distinction of that book highlights is someone who diminishes their team is usually the smartest person in the room but a real leader makes the rest of the team like they're the smartest person in the room. And that was a huge shift in my overall happiness and with the growth of my companies and it's something that I wished that I had done before I was building companies to sell them. Joe: What kind of staffing do you have just out of curiosity? Ryan: Well, the company that I just exited was a team of four. The portfolio of companies … of brands that I have is a team of five. And my media company capitalism.com is a team of six. Joe: And are all of those people in-house or do you do some … or the VA's are they working remotely or they come to the office every day? Ryan: I'm only counting in-house people so that does not count freelancers. But no not everybody … we have … there's, we are a distributed team. So like I'm recording this in my office right now, one of my team members is just right here my side. But people will come in and out. Some people … like we have a team member in Canada, we have a team member in Germany, but they're all full time dedicated to [inaudible 00:22:47.0]. Joe: Good. I asked that because you know most people that are listening would probably be considered lifestyle entrepreneurs and they have to outsource staff and VA's and people working remotely. So it's good to know that even though they're not coming into your office every day this is really important [inaudible 00:23:02.3] get their short term vision don't have that long term vision so that you don't have major major stomach aches with algorithm updates we'll review gates in that situation and then over managing of the staff you know let them be their experts; anything else that comes to mind? Ryan: As far as big mistakes that I've made … I mean we talked about the mistake in selling and as far as building the business I'll say I wished that I had spent more money on cold advertising. Like always like there's never been a business that was like ah you know I think I spent too much on advertising. I've only ever said I wish I'd spent more on advertising. Joe: Yeah, where would you have spent it because these are primarily Amazon based businesses correct? Ryan: The businesses that I personally built, yes. Joe: Right. So where would you spend that money? Ryan: So we just identified the problem because you said they were mostly Amazon based businesses so had I done things even better I would have doubled down on non-Amazon advertising. Because what … if you're an Amazon business which is like nails on a chalkboard to me because it means you're dependent on somebody else. Joe: Right. Ryan: It means that you're dependent on this channel and you've got to go double down on building a business has a different leg to the stool and that when you combine those things together magic can happen. If you've got an email list of 100,000 people that you've built from cold advertising or from buying tripwires and now you're combining that with the power of something like Amazon.com that's really really powerful. Most physical products sellers never make that [inaudible 00:24:32.6] or they get so myopic into one channel that they never spend the money and the time to go develop the advertising for another channel. I wish I had been comfortable losing my rear end on other advertising channels until I figured out those systems. It's interesting Joe, it's true that every channel you will lose for a while and then you figure out the systems and then you start to grow through it and you get profitable. The strange thing is that most people once they've figured it out and get profitable they're unwilling to go do that hard work in another area. So the way that Amazon worked in 2013, '14, and '15 was if you spend until you grab long enough you could outrank everybody else and go win but I never … I lost that hustle when it came down to Facebook Ads or influencers and people start looking for the immediate ROI. In what business is there immediate ROI? When you're building a long term brand that has sales potential … like buyers are buying the systems; they're buying profitable systems because you've already gone through that hard work of developing the systems that are profitable. But it requires you to go build them so I wish I had spent more on advertising, been more willing to lay it on the line, rolled more back into reinvestment. So I'll call that mistake number three. Joe: So for buyers and sellers that are listening, entrepreneurs that are listening it's that one legged stool, two legged stool, three legged stool. If you're 100% Amazon business it's riskier than if you also have a revenue channel from Google Ad Words and driving traffic to your Shopify store and you might be doing wholesale or B2B things of that nature but right away as I've said before if you've got a business that's just at within $100,000 in discretionary earnings that's 100% Amazon same business $100,000 in discretionary earnings but you've got 60% Amazon, 25% Shopify, I guess that would be 15% percent [inaudible 00:26:36.4] my math here, another percent of B2B that business on the other side is going to be worth 15 to 20% more. So you might be breaking even or losing a little bit of money on that land grab trying to grab more customers but if you can turn that into even the same discretionary earnings that business automatically is going to be worth 15 to 20% more because the buyers will pay more for a risk averse business that'll be around for the longer term so very very good advice. What channel would you go to first? Because there are so many options these days and building a channel off of Amazon is hard as you know. You've got to learn a whole new expertise. Where would you go first and what do most of your successful folks do? Ryan: Yeah and I'm actually going to cue on very creatively sidestepped this question because the obvious is Amazon. But where I would suggest is actually people double down on where the audience is. To me, this is the nut has to be cracked if their building a sellable company. And what that means to me it is for some people their audience hangs out following influencers. For other people that is they follow blogs or they have a blog where the audiences are already hanging out. Or some people they've got a Facebook where there's an audience. Now what most businesses, especially like a million dollar businesses, are doing is they're going channel first and trying to extract as much of it as possible. Like I'm going to go to Amazon try to rank and pull as much out of this pie as possible. Only a few people can win that game but if you switch it and you say where are my people who is the ideal buyer and where are they then the channel where you collect the order can always change. And that makes Shopify, Amazon, B2B a whole lot easier. The first nut that you have to crack isn't where the buyers hang out apart from the sales transaction and then you bring those buyers to the transaction. So the transaction to me … Amazon, easy no question. Put your product on Amazon the credit card is already there, people are already looking for it. No question, easy, done. The nut that needs to be cracked is what happens one step before that. And if there is … like if you don't have the influence, the list, the following, the traffic, the pay-per-click strategy that some way to go get those people and bring them into your ecosystem I think you are struggling from the get go and that's the primary question that I ask the entrepreneur. Joe: Yeah and I think depending upon as you say the product and what they're offering some of those different channels will make more sense. You know I had a conversation with someone this morning that has several brands and one brand has incredible numbers with email marketing and that same expertise applied to that different brand doesn't do as well. Ryan: Right. Joe: They're driving people to their Shopify store though Amazon keeps growing and out phasing everything else. So I understand identify where your customers hang out and then you've got to go find those customers. To own that list though you need to send them to your own store, not to Amazon. So are you sort of balancing between sending them to Amazon because it's all there or? Ryan: No, I just disagree. So I think that the loyalty to the brand is the customer experience. And you give the customer the ability to give you money wherever they are most comfortable making the purchase. I heard Brian Lee say where it's … Brian Lee is the founder of the Honest Company, the billion dollar brand with Jessica Alba, and I heard him say once that he considers it a win when the product is in the customer's home. That's when you've wo, not collecting it online e-commerce site, not getting into retail. It's when the product is in the customer's home. However, they get it and you want to release as little friction as possible getting the product into the customer's home. You will own the customer experience when you have their data. You have the ability to communicate a message in front of them. So if you've got the email list and you send them over to Amazon, Amazon rewards that and your conversion rate is probably going to be higher sending them to Amazon that sending them to your Shopify store. So there's a balance [inaudible 00:31:12.7] I know that I can get a higher immediate customer value sending them to my own web site because I can put them through upsells and cross sells to get their immediate data versus sending them to Amazon where I am going to have to work to get their data. I don't have any upsell experience. They might see a negative review. And so the entrepreneur is going to have to play the game of where the numbers make the most sense over the long term. But I think that the actual customer experience happens in when you communicate with them. And that's in the email message, that's in the outside of just a transaction, not just where their credit card is being added but words being communicated. Joe: Okay, I get and I'm just going to repeat it for those that are … well not smarter than me; let's put it that way. So it's capturing the customer information up front, building that relationship with them, and then simply send them to the place that they can buy the product and experience the brand with the least amount of friction and get it in their home. Ryan: Nailed it. Joe: Okay. Ryan: That's my opinion. Joe: And it all goes back I would say and it's kind of almost unspoken that the brand has to be pretty amazing so focus on that first. Build a great product, a great brand so they have a great experience and then do all that other stuff as well. Ryan: Yeah and let me address that because that often brings up the question how do I identify a brand? Like what exactly is the brand. And the brand is the way that trust is communicated to a very specific customer. Most Amazon sellers have no idea over their customers they know what their product is. If you know what you sell and not who you sell to you do not have a brand. Or you might have a brand but it's really lousy whereas if you know who the person is, it makes the product really really easy. I was just meeting with one of my team members today; we were expressing the frustration over one of our brands in our portfolio. Because when we acquired it, it sold a lot of product but it had no target market. And so we've had to do a lot of work to convert that brand into an actual brand where people are not just buying a product but they're buying something and it says about them sells. Those businesses last, product businesses don't because they're commodities. You forget about commodities and the minute that there's a better price or better customer experience their loyalty changes. But when you've got the brand people are very stingy with their trust. I want to give it to you, you have them for as long as you keep their trust. Joe: Very important message right there. Ryan, any thoughts in terms of whether someone should be building this business and always think about the future and possible exits; do you try to instill in them that they should know the value of their business in the event they wake up some day and want to move on or do you just focus on building that brand and when you're ready the time will come? Ryan: You know the real … the temptation for me is to say that no, you shouldn't be necessarily thinking about selling but I know that I'm in a different spot than everyone who's listening. So I would say if you are building this to make money, be building it to sell from day one. Because the very act of being in it for the money means that you will burn out, you will wake up and want to do something else. It's going to happen. So if that … and like let's just be real about it, if you're in it because of the payday, build it to sell because that's what you're in it for and the payday is the cherry at the end of the rainbow here. If you were in it because you've got a product you want to bring to the world then still develop the systems and processes that will keep you in the position to be in your zone of genius. And that will make you more sellable one day but I don't think it's necessary for you to know what it's worth or be making decisions based on that. So these are different goals. Now I build companies that I'm excited about and I am building them in the same way that we make something valuable because I want to be in a position where I'm just in my zone of genius. But it's a different mindset than if I'm building something because it's going to be profitable. Does that make sense Joe? Joe: Absolutely; excellent …excellent. Hey listen I know we're running out of time here I just want to say that last summer I was at the stock market conference and you got up and you spoke as did another dozen or so very very successful entrepreneurs. Each and every one of them had a PowerPoint presentation. You got up there with nothing. And you talked for an hour and the audience was captivated as was I. You have a gift thank you for sharing it. I appreciate it. Ryan: I just got goose bumps. Thank you so much, mate. I really appreciate it. Joe: How do more people get to experience that and listen to you and hear what you do share? Ryan: You know I'd love to answer that question, can I offer one more piece of advice before we go? Joe: You can offer a dozen more pieces of advice. Ryan: Wow, awesome. I'll leave it to one but if you are in this to please have a plan of what you're going to do with the money when you get it. Entrepreneurs are magicians. We remake things up here on thin air. We create value out of thin air. We create a bigger pie. We make money show up. And we also make things disappear. Joe: Isn't that true? Ryan: And if you do not have a plan of what you're going to do with the money it will slip through your fingers. I know you think you're the exception. I know you think all I have to do is invest this at 8% and I'm [inaudible 00:37:11.5]. I know you think that's how it's going to be. You will ball the money. I … right now I just heard you think “no I won't”, yes you will. So if you don't have a net for catching the money and allocating the money for your lifestyle you will be back in the grind very very quickly. I promise you, I know you don't believe me. I'm here to tell you that's the case. Have a plan for what to do with the money once you get the money. It's actually my favorite conversation to have. At some point, I'll probably have more chops [inaudible 00:37:45.3] about investing once you have a big windfall. But for now, it's like have a plan like a plan is better than no plan. And that plan would probably be best done after you sat on the money for about six months and you've gotten used to that money being in the bank account. Your second question or actually your only question was- Joe: Can I interrupt that? Ryan: Please. Joe: I definitely want to get to that but in terms of having the plan to exit, I'm always telling people look have your next adventure planned. Because entrepreneurs like you say they blow through the money, it goes through their hands like saying. I'm often saying maybe get that other opportunity started and launched long as it's not competing to get the ball rolling. So that you got some working capital maybe you're going to put it in … some of it you're not as bootstrapped although you'll be more successful probably if you are. Do you think maybe they should 100% focus on what they're doing on that brand before they sell it up until the day they sell or maybe when it gets big enough and good enough and they've done enough right they can take some of their attention and start Brand B while they're selling off Brand A? Ryan: Wow, Joe. The reason I'm saying wow is because my experience is pretty unique and that was I took about a week off and then I immediately went back to workaholism and it was the worst. It was a horrible experience. Now full disclose like at the same time I was going through separation and I'm going through a lot life changes. I threw myself into work right after the sale. I celebrated by reading books on my patio for like eight days and I was immediately back to workaholism. And I like … I roasted my body, I mean I so needed a break and I did not give myself that break. I don't know if every entrepreneur was as burnt out as I was. I was more burnt out than I [inaudible 00:39:40.5]. Joe: Most ideal [inaudible 00:39:42.8] they come to me tired, exhausted, ready to move on. Ryan: Joe, it's been over a year. I wouldn't even say I'm back now. You know I'm probably operating at 75% of capacity because I never really recovered. So should you go right back into it? I don't know. I think it depends on the level you're at and your own wiring. I make really good decisions when I'm relaxed and creative. I make terrible short term decisions when I'm stressed. And when I'm in that workaholic mode I'm a terrible entrepreneur. I wish I had just blissed out for like three months; I didn't. Joe: I don't know what the folks that listen to you every week would do if you would disappear for three months though. Ryan: Well here's the thing though Joe. I kind of did. Like my podcast sucked for like three months, three to six months and I was trying … like I'm sitting in front of mic trying to come up with things to say and I was uncreative as heck. So I sort of did disappear it was just a different way. And now I'm getting back to it and it's a completely different experience. But I actually think I did my listeners a disservice by not taking a break. And if have been just really upfront and be like guys I just got an eight figure check I am going to the beach and I will call you when I'm ready. My audience would've popped but instead, I was like operating from this place of like I'm so … oh my goodness I'm so tired and I turned off a lot of people. I know it's not the answer that you expected it's not the answer I expected to give you. Joe: No, I like it. Ryan: But I think it's true. Joe: I think sleep and rest and meditation or whatever it is to focus on is absolutely necessary. So back to that original question and you know finding out what they do with the money after they sell. How do they get more of Ryan Daniel Moran? How do they experience what that audience down at Smart Market and myself experienced where you just talked and everybody listened and took notes and all that? Ryan: Well, thanks so much, man, my media company is capitalism.com. My podcast is called Freedom Fast Lane. And I say things into a microphone and we hold events at capitalism.com that are specifically for entrepreneurs. And we're actually … we just rebooted the Freedom Fast Lane podcast. I feel as though- Joe: With fresh energy. Ryan: What's that? Joe: With fresh energy right? Ryan: Well yeah, I think you'd probably feel it from me. Five years ago I started this journey as a boy and I was … I just put everything I owned into my car, drove to Austin, Texas, started some new companies, I documented the whole experience from startup to sale. And then I kind of grew up while documenting the journey. And now there's a new journey and it's a much bigger one and so we just rebooted kind of the entire audience, the whole experience in the podcast. And my podcast is called Freedom Fast Lane. My company is capitalism.com. Joe: Okay. Well, I'll make sure those are in the show notes. I'd love to see you be more successful on this new adventure, this bigger journey. Ryan: Thank you. Joe: Let's stay in touch. I think I may see you at the capitalism conference at the end of August; let's see. At the very least we'll be to as many as we can be over the next few years. Ryan: Good to see you man, thank you so much for having me. Joe: Thanks for your time, I appreciate it. Links: Capitalism.com FreedomFastlane.com

Once upon a time I (Joe) had an AdWords PPC budget that hit $45,000 a month. Over 5 years I learned AdWords on my own, had no training, a half dozen campaigns and a handful of ad groups. I thought I was pretty savvy and successful. This was about 10 years ago and to be frank, I'm older, wiser, more seasoned and would tell my 10-year younger self that I was a novice and wasting a TON of money. Don't be like me. Since 2010 I have heard dozens of entrepreneurs tell me they outsourced their paid advertising unsuccessfully. So when Jason Yelowitz introduced me to Strike Social Founder I was a little skeptical. But success and growth speak for themselves. Patrick McKenna boot strapped Strike Social from his kitchen table in a rented home in LA about 5 years ago. In 2016 Strike Social was named on the Inc. 500 List for the fastest growing companies. Their rank? Number 17! Strike Social helps brands improve their paid advertising campaigns, dramatically. One example Patrick gives is an ecommerce company that had their CPA go from $80 dollars to $16. This created great problems for the client. The first was rapid growth and much better margins. The second was access (or lack thereof) to monies for inventory. As you likely know – running out of inventory is an issue. Rapidly growing brands lack access to capital, run out of inventory and lose ground on the path to growth. Strike Social does a free analysis of a client's paid ad campaigns, a free test, and when the client comes on board and grows so fast they don't have funds for enough inventory, Strike will provide working capital for inventory. If it weren't for the rank of number 17 on the Inc. 500 list and the fact that you don't get there without proving yourself, I'd say it all seems too good to be true. After chatting with Patrick on today's Podcast, I say try them out get a free review. At the very least you'll learn what you are doing right and wrong in your own paid advertising campaigns. Episode Highlights: Instagram's paid advertising platform is the next Facebook. It's working. In Google AdWords you should have 1,000+ campaigns, not 6. Facebook is content driven and ads need constant testing. Video ads in Facebook can be as short as 3-4 seconds. YouTube is great, but not for direct conversations and CPAs. Strike Social developed technology recognized by Techcrunch.com that helped propel them to #17 on the Inc. 500 list. Strike Social will provide working capital to clients so they can ramp up inventory to match growth. Transcription: Mark: So one of the things that I find most difficult and frustrating about running a business in today's internet world is this idea of having these coordinated campaigns across multiple channels and multiple platforms, and the degree to sophistication which you need to run each campaign across each platform. For example with Facebook and Google, it's not so much to do just [inaudible 00:01:25.5] a couple of key words and hoping everything works for Facebook bring up a couple of ads and hoping it works. You really have to delve in and get super detailed. I understand Joe that you talked to somebody today that's doing this for a living. And they started a company and not only have they just started and are doing well but they're ranked really high in the Inc. 500 list specializing in running these cross-platform campaigns that are really highly refined. Joe: Yeah. It's Patrick McKenna from Strike Social and about five years ago he bootstrapped a company, he was literally working from the kitchen table in a rented house in Los Angeles. And he developed software that would analyze paid advertising campaigns and then go way beyond what you normally do in an excel file and so on and so forth. Standard stuff right? Well, that's what I thought when he was introduced to me by our very own Jason Yellowitz, they're neighbors. Patrick's company Strike Social in 2016 was ranked number 16 … no number 17 on the Inc. 500 list. And I think you and I have talked about this that that's impressive, number 17 on Inc. 500 list, you don't get there by accident. You don't get there without being really really good at what you do. Over the years, the last six years that I've been doing what I'm doing I talked to dozens and dozens and I might want to say hundreds that [inaudible 00:02:49.9] of people that started their own Google Ad Account and developed it as their business grew and managed it themselves and then got to a point where they said you know what I should outsource this. And they found somebody online and they outsourced it and what happened? It failed. That cost for acquisition went up, the budget went up and they had to bring it back in-house. Dozens of times I talked to these folks. So when I first connected with Patrick I was skeptical but then we talked, went into detail and he gave me some success stories that are really truly just incredible Mark to the point where I need you to listen to this podcast and consider talking with him about Quiet Light Advertising. They do testing for free. They do an analysis with their software and they'll do a test for free as well. And then they prove themselves and then like every other agency they get paid on a percentage of spend. But here's the kicker they've taken some clients and grown their businesses so dramatically that clients run out of inventory. That's the number one thing we tell folks is don't run out of inventory. It seems so simple but when people bootstrap the company and they grow they don't have enough working capital. And I've listened to other podcast, you know the EcommCrew Mike Jackness podcast where they talk about trying to find sources of working capital for inventory. Well, Strike Social will be that source for their very own clients. Because they've run into it so many times where it was so successful the client ran out of funds to buy more inventory. So they became that working capital source. So really impressive story, I would encourage everyone to listen all the way through to the 31 minute mark where he starts to talk about the working capital aspect of it. But there's a lot of good stuff here. He talks about some basic things that everyone should do. A quick story and then I'll stop talking. But when I ran my own Google AdWords campaign for the company that you brokered for me back in 2010, the most I ever spent was $45,000 in one month on paid advertising. I worked my way up that, up up from that in 2005 to 2010. Of course, after the crash, it was much lower but at the max … at the peak, I had a total of 10 campaigns set up in Google AdWords. And I had it all done with my keywords and I used all the software at the time to find those keywords and develop them; 10 campaigns. So in talking with Patrick, he talks about that their clients have an average of 1,000 to 6,000 campaigns and that's for one product, Mark. And that just makes me think about … again, yet again how much money I lost in two ways, really on wasted advertising spending and on not making it so good that my cost for acquisition came down dramatically. And I just want to encourage everyone that's listening to think about it and listen to what they're saying and have a conversation with them because odds are you're not doing it as well as you could be if you're doing it yourself. Just like what we talked about with book keeping, Excel is not accounting software. The basic pieces that you pull together for managing your campaigns across multiple platforms is not as good as what these guys have either. And it's worth to listen to him, worth a test I think in my opinion and experience. Mark: Yeah and I really have to agree with the fact that if you're doing it in-house and look I'm running some campaigns in-house right now for both companies that I own. That for a variety of reasons … but you have to understand if you're going to run it in-house, if you're not going to have a specialist, chances are you're not going to be doing it as well as it could be done. Because AdWords is an environment that really takes specialization. Facebook is an environment that really takes specialization. Frankly, I'm saying up a good automation sequence falls in the same category as well. So I'll be interested to listen to this. I definitely will be listening to this. I'm always looking to pick up on some information. Joe: Yeah and look Instagram is also in there as well. It's something we talked about. You know when AdWords was it that was the player Facebook came along and started to become the second option. Well, Instagram is now that option to Facebook and it's really starting to work. So those that have not expanded to those channels, listen, take a look, learn. And the other thing look this wasn't a pitch for this guy's services. This was helping people understand what they may or may not be doing right or wrong in their campaigns. And he talks about three things that you can do and focus on. And at the end Mark, I didn't ask him for a contact information like at all. It's in the show notes of course but for those that only listen the company is Strike Social. It's strikesocial.com and you can email them at hello@strikesocial.com that's hello@strikesocial.com it's a … we didn't talk about it at the end so I want to throw it in now. Mark: Awesome well let's get to it. Joe: Hey folks its Joe Valley of Quiet Light Brokerage and today I've got Patrick McKenna with us from Strike Social. How are you, Patrick? Patrick: I'm good. How are you, Joe? Joe: I'm fantastic. Folks, anybody that knows Jason Yellowitz here at Quiet Light, you should, he's been around for I think longer than everybody except for Mark Daoust the founder of Quiet Light. Jason was my broker when I sold back in 2010 and he happens to live across the street from you right? Patrick: That's right we live in Reno, he's right across the street. Kids are always running in my house. Joe: Jason is a good man and I wouldn't mind having him as a neighbor. I often poke fun at Jason and his Bathrobe Millionaire book but it's a heck of a success story and I still don't have a piece of the bathrobe. Have you ever seen it laying around his house? Did he save it? Seriously is it like behind like a glass case hanging on the wall? Patrick: It's on the mantle sitting up there. He's very proud of that. Joe: Next time you're in I want you to take a selfie in front of it and send it to me okay? Patrick: [inaudible 00:08:47.7] Joe: Look in all seriousness Jason is top notch. He's my mentor. He's mentored to many. He's a terrific guy. And he introduced you to us. And as I mentioned before we started recording we do not do fancy introductions here at Quiet Light on the Quiet Light Podcast so I know it's going to be hard for you but I want you to brag about yourself a little bit because you have a heck of a success story. Tell us about Strike Social and what you do, what the background is and all that good stuff for us. Patrick: Sure, yeah we … you know Jason and I are sort of kindred spirits. We've been through the battle, it sounds like you have too … I mean a business is incredibly challenging. We did it like anyone else does it. We take the plunge, you bootstrap on a kitchen table out of our rental house in LA. And we started that process in March of 2013 and then we launched some technology and we got recognized in TechCrunch for this advertising technology, this analytics platform. By November after that article came out we're selling like crazy and that was some different challenges. You think initially that wow this is great and that my products rate and the market loves it. And then you start to realize that you're putting yourself out of business because you're trying to fund invoices and all those types of things that come up when you're running a business. So we went through all that stuff, raised a little money in 2014, raised a little bit more in 2015 and it's standed globally and by 2016 we're recognized in Forbes Fast 500 fastest growing companies in the US. Joe: What number were you? Patrick: Number 17. Joe: 17 out of 500? Patrick: Yeah. Joe: That's incredible. Patrick: Pretty amazing. That was up 2016 revenue numbers and we're excited to see where we land this year for Fortune List. It will be the 2018 release that will be 2017 numbers so- Joe: Got you. Patrick: It's that it so. Joe: It sounds exciting and painful all the same time. You've literally started on a kitchen table at a rental in LA. and then grew the business, bootstrapped it from there. Probably like many of the listeners who are you know the listeners that are sellers and entrepreneurs and listeners that are hoping to step into the entrepreneurial role that you're playing now. That's pretty incredible. Tell us about what Strike Social does and who your typical customers are. Patrick: Right. So initially we went out to the largest agencies in the world and we sold execution services around advertising. So initially we started with YouTube now we're across all the social platforms and search as well. But we would basically like take on and execute buys for their largest customers. So our customers will be X-box in PNG and pick any Fortune 100 brand, the big guys. And then we started doing that here in the US then we went to Asia and then went to Europe and I don't know if you know who the holding companies are but you know WPP [inaudible 00:12:17.3], the big guys that I mostly don't talk to a smaller company. So it was really nice to have that reign for us to go sell in to and it was a really profitable situation for us. And we kept building technology and investing in technology and people and locations. We have a location here in Chicago where we're headquartered. And then we have a location in Poland and a location in Manila. We've got about a hundred people here now and we've got boots on the ground from Japan, and Korea, and Australia, obviously the US, Singapore, Europe. So it's been a really really fun ride and yes you go through all of the emotional ups and downs of running a business when you're buying one. Joe: Yeah. Good problems with that kind of growth, really good problems. Talk to me about the technology that you developed that originally got you recognized in I think you said TechCrunch and you said analytics platform. Can you talk about the actual service and why someone would use … like why these B2B advertising agencies would use yours versus having an expert in-house do it. What does it do and what's different about it that made you the 17th fastest growing company in 2016? Patrick: Yeah I think when video first came out I think it was really challenging for companies to understand, it is kind of a new medium, how do I be successful here? So our analytics platform so they showed them how to be successful. But what we did is we executed the media guys. So we look like a typical agency, we don't really like that word because we built software solution to help us with that. And then overtime what we've done is we built this incredible artificial intelligence box that allows us to go across platform, plan and execute strategies. And so it's all … it's a human and technology solution combined. And like I talked about advertising now it's a complicated orchestra. And what you need at the end of that is execution so … and we can talk about that more but it's very challenging to stay up to date on these platforms and you need a partner and a technology solution to really execute and do well. Joe: Okay. And you started out with YouTube, so at that time there were not a lot of experts in the field of buying advertising, buying that advertising space on YouTube. Patrick: That's right. Joe: You know when I … when Jason sold my business back in 2010 I was spending a boatload of money on Google AdWords and I learned it from the ground up. I did it myself starting in 2005 and I … at one point I never had any training so I can't imagine how much money I wasted over the years. I mean it was a point where I topped out at spending $45,000 a month. I mean Jason loves to tell the story of how I got mad at American Express because I went above my average so I cut my advertising in half and it's the stupidest thing I've ever done. But I did it because I got mad. It is a ton of money; I blew a ton of money by not being the expert. But you guys learned that expertise in terms of buying ad space on YouTube and then you expanded to the other social media platforms. So are you now doing paid ads on Google AdWords, on Facebook, Instagram, Snapchat, things of that nature? Patrick: Absolutely DBM, Amazon, all the ones- Joe: What would DBM mean? You got me right there. Patrick: Sorry … Doubleclick Bid Manager is Google's DSP solution to get the rest of the web that's not … that you can't do in AdWords. Joe: And what's DSP stand for? Patrick: Digital Supply-side Platform, so that's how Google goes and buys display advertising on say the [inaudible 00:16:36.9] within New York Times. Joe: Okay. Patrick: Yeah. So it's another Google product. It's part of their Google Suite and actually it's interesting that you bring that up that's … that they had a tagging solution there that … and we find this a lot in companies that are running small businesses on just AdWords that you can get really good multi variant testing on that platform rebuilt technology to allow you to expand that. I don't know how extensive you got with your test. But one campaign maybe you have 40 different variables, maybe you're really good and you get up to a hundred. We'll do like 6,000 with their technology. Joe: Wow. Patrick: So yeah we're testing age, demo, interest, topic, keywords- Joe: Let's get really down to it. People that are listening, their ears might be perking up and this is why we're talking because you don't get to be number 17 on the Forbes fastest growing companies by screwing up. Patrick: Yeah. Joe: Because you wouldn't have the clients that would be referring and helping you grow your business further. Patrick: That's right. Joe: So my initial thought as I said on our first call was more often than not I do valuations and exe-planning for people and see that they were doing fine on their own advertising. Managing it themselves and then outsourced it and it totally blew it up as in bang and their cost for acquisition went up. And usually, in my experience, it's not a great thing. Your success in having people use your services changes my mind. So let's talk about specifically we've got folks that are … was their physical product owners and of course there's content as well but I think you said you don't really do a whole lot of content stuff. Correct me if I'm wrong but let's say we've got physical product owners that are mostly because of the crazy growth on Amazon doing Amazon sponsored ads our advice is always go well beyond Amazon grow your business so it's not one revenue channel. Your value is going to be higher but they are challenged with how to do that. So do you do an analysis on a business and you're looking at Facebook advertising for that physical products, do you take over the Amazon, sponsored ads, do you do Instagram all of these things? Patrick: Yes, all of them. And you know what before we start with any business we start with an audit to get to a genuine conversation. You'd say okay here in the platforms you're on tell us about your objectives, lets pull your data into a dashboard that you'll own and take possession of. And more so you … where we see some quick wins and easy gaps and then we'll go take you know what if you like what we're saying we'll go run a test for free to see if we can improve what you're doing. Joe: How much is the cost of the audit that you do? Patrick: It doesn't cost anything. Joe: Okay the audit is free and the test is free. Patrick: The audit is free, the test is free. That's right and we just rolled out this … the reason I'm talking to you and I'm just talking to Jason about this is you know we just rolled out this Strike Marketing Partnership. You know we have a very large e-commerce company under our belt right now and we are able to take that business and improve their cost per lead from $80 to $16 and it really grow their business. They were able to- Joe: Were they profitable at $80? Patrick: Yes. Yeah, they were. Joe: Okay. Patrick: Dramatically improved their numbers and now they're on a path to being a billion dollar company. Joe: And so you took it from $80 cost per lead … was it cost for lead or cost for acquisition or both? I guess it doesn't matter but you took it from 80 to 16 and then where they able to use the same budget or I mean- Patrick: They were able to increase it. Yeah you see that's the key and I think the one point I want to make Joe is that we are entrepreneurs here and we're in the advertising marketing space and like one of the guys that's on our staff started panatea until he started the March Air Movement and sold it to a very large Japanese company because he doesn't need to work. But he's passionate about entrepreneurs, entrepreneurship and he's an expert in building that brand. And when you said content you know content is critical in … when you start talking about AdWords and multi variant testing you can't apply that same learning over to Facebook. It's a completely different platform. Everything is grouped together. You have to be a little bit patient and let Facebook find that first customer for you. And then it starts to learn who your customer is and it's started in and it's off to the races. But if you're open at that platform and if you're doing it the same way you're doing it on AdWords whether it's YouTube or just AdWords so you're not going to perform there, you're just … you're not doing it right. Joe: Okay. Patrick: So- Joe: What are in that Amazon Seller account? Do you guys handle the sponsor ads as well? Patrick: That's right yeah and we have a seat on Amazon so we have a partnership with them. Seat means that we get a seat. Joe: You know I was going to ask that. Patrick: Yeah sorry. I can see it on your face, what's a seat? Joe: Okay. Patrick: And seat that means that we're in their partner program and we can log into their technology and buy inventory at stale. Joe: Sure. Patrick: So … yeah and that means we also have a rep, and that's the other thing to is that these platforms change all the time. And one of the recent ones was GDPR it's made a … GDPR oh. Joe: Come on now GDPR what's that? This is going to be the acronym show. What is it? Patrick: Yeah the acronym … I'm sorry, I spend a lot of time in advertising so you know neither all … there are all things … GDPR is a … it's a European Union situation where the user is in control of their own data. Joe: Okay. Patrick: And the platforms, you have to basically ask permission or I think you've probably seen on sites you go to now. They're saying a. so do you like content, you need to accept my cookie. And if you're in someone's database right now and you have a European client in your database you needed to e-mail them and say hey by the way I need you to okay the fact that you're in my database. Initially, don't do that, I mean don't be that; you can get fined significantly. Joe: Most of our … the people in the audience, the people that are listening I shouldn't say most I mean it's anywhere from somebody doing a hundred thousand a year in revenue to you know 40 to 50 million in revenue. So it's all over the map there a little bit. Let's give some stuff away for free here that I don't want this to be obviously you do the evaluation and you do the test for free. And then let me just answer that; let's answer the quick question because people are going to say well what happens after that? Do you get paid on a commission basis part of the advertising how does it … part of the advertise you spent? Patrick: Yeah I think that's why we fall in that advertising agent bucket because we get a percentage of the media. Joe: I did the same back in my Media Mind days when I used to buy time on radio; percentage of what you're spending. Patrick: There you go. Joe: And about the job you do on that cost for acquisition the more you're able to spend because the budget goes up. So it is the right- Patrick: Portion. Joe: Way to do it. Yeah. All right so let's talk about that aside do you have any sort of hot tips? What can someone do just on their own looking at their own advertising budget in whatever platform you want to talk about? Patrick: Sure. Joe: Give away some tips or what can somebody do that's using … let's start with Google AdWords. What's the biggest mistake people make and how can they fix it? Patrick: Yeah I think that one of the biggest mistakes, I mean you can kind of take this across all platforms is trying to figure out the audience and the actual attribution and then finding the adjacent audience. So I'll give you an example, and our artificial intelligence does this. The idea is that you need to expand your audience. So you find an audience that gives you a high lifetime value and you recognize that in keywords or interest in Google AdWords. For example, you might be targeting 18 to 54 year olds in AdWords. You need to break each one of those segments up and realize that 18 to 24 year olds aren't interested in the same thing as a 45 and through 54 right? So if you're trying … if you're targeting people who are interested in the NFL, the 18 year olds that also have that same interest are interested in the UFC. And so you have to find those adjacent audiences to lower your cost of acquisition. Does that make sense? Joe: Yeah. Patrick: You expand the reach of the audience size and that's something that our technology does and our big people are doing that. Joe: Okay so it's finding out their like audiences. I always hear something on the Facebook algorithm in the paid advertising part of that similar audience or look alike audience, is that what we're talking about? Patrick: Kind of, on Facebook it's different. So AdWords is a multi-variant test platform. You're basically setting up … hopefully, you're setting up somewhere between 10 and 150 different campaigns. We're going to set up about 1,000 to 6,000. Joe: I think I had five or six and I had multiple things underneath there. So you're talking about 1,000 to 6,000 campaigns? Patrick: What was what was your target audience age range? Joe: From the women 25, 54 but I honestly can't recall if I even know. No, not much. I don't want to talk about that because I lost a whole lot of money the more we talk about it. Patrick: Oh my gosh. Joe: Wasted money. But you're doing a thousand campaigns inside of Google Ad Words? Patrick: You can [inaudible 00:17:10.1]. That's the only way, get out to get that. No, no, no, that's my product. That's the only way to get down to how am I going to expand this audience? What does this audience …. what is this audience also interested in? So it … what you basically said, what you told the platform was I want women 18 to 54 is that what you said, 18 to 54? Joe: 25, 54 but- Patrick: 25 and 54 and you basically said they all have the same interest and they don't. Joe: No they don't. Patrick: And they're not even on the same device. So you've got to break it out by device; tablet, mobile, desktop. And you've got to break it out by each age group. You've got to break it out by each interest. And you got to break it out by each keyword. Because if you don't get that data in there you're science is [inaudible 00:28:04.6] value is. Joe: Okay so someone doing this on their own in an Excel spreadsheet doing … think they're doing fairly well odds are that they could be doing a whole lot better. Patrick: Basically. Joe: Right. Another … okay so the tip there was I keep, I want to call it look alike audiences but it's not. Patrick: Just call it multi-variant testing. In AdWords, you've got to multi-variant test, and you've got to get as granular as possible to get the learnings out of that, out of that platform. Joe: Multi-variant testing, okay. Patrick: Yes. Joe: Second so the tip, the next thing you'll sit down and tell somebody to look at? Patrick: So on Facebook, it's completely different. You can't, you have to bucket everyone together and then as soon as Facebook finds you that acquisition and that's you know obviously Facebook and Instagram then it starts to learn okay now I know who you're looking for and it starts to find all the people that look alike. That's where the look alike part comes in. Facebook's AdWord is working in the background to figure that out. When we first set out it might be looking at your return and saying oh my gosh I'm doing way better on AdWords. You have to stick with it. And one of the things that we see as well is that you have a longer sign up or click to buy solution in your platform. What you'll see is people will start that buy on Facebook and they'll get to your form and realize that they don't have enough time for this and they need to go sign up on the desktop. And they'll go to Google search, look up your brand and you have to be able to do that. And that's where that DCM code comes in to play; from double click. Joe: Okay. Patrick: It actually digi up and see the assist on Facebook to AdWords, give the credit to Facebook that was the person who … that's where they saw the ad. They'll just go in to the desktop to finish filling it out Joe: Okay. Patrick: That makes sense? Joe: I did evaluation maybe three weeks ago for someone that back in the first quarter they reduced tremendous volume in their business by Facebook advertising. And then the algorithm update hit in I think April, you know by May. And they went from let's say a half a million a month in revenue to 40,000 a month in revenue. Patrick: Yeah. Joe: Incredibly painful. Patrick: Yeah. Joe: They then jumped to Google AdWords and made adjustments on Facebook. But that type of algorithm update how do you and how does your agency … [inaudible 00:30:34.3] agency, how does your service address that, fix that, take care of that, and make sure that your clients are not going to be suffering from that major algorithm update that Facebook seems to be doing on a regular basis? Patrick: Yeah, it's a good point Joe I mean we're all sort of at the mercy of the changes that happen. That update may have been Facebook's response to Cambridge Analytics which was kind of like on the back end of that GDPR stuff I was talking about. So they have made changes and all these platforms change all the time. What we had is like when I was talking about Amazon with the seat, we're in Facebook's Ad Manager; we have a Facebook rep so we … those changes come to us before. Hey look here's how you're going to have to set these campaigns up in the future to be successful. Be prepared for this, this is going to be our algorithmic change and they'll never tell you what's in the science behind it. But you bring up a valid point about Facebook; it is a very content rich platform. You have to be testing instead of multi variant testing, different light items of campaigns. What you're really doing there is your multi-variant testing creative. So you have to look at an audience and you have to understand is the audience tired of my ad? They're seeing the same ad over and over again. Are they tired of that ad or is the audience exhausted with my product? They don't want it anymore and I have to go somewhere else. But typically what we're doing in Facebook is a lot of creatives popping. So well create a slot, 15 different pieces of creative image a week period [inaudible 00:32:19.0]. Joe: So with AdWords the campaigns you could have a thousand plus potentially. Patrick: Yeah. Joe: Maybe at least 6,000 with Facebook it's more about the creative and fifteen different creatives over a two week period. Patrick: Yeah that's right. Joe: And then you'll continue to test that and swap it out to just continually monitoring the click rate and conversion rate. Patrick: That's right. Joe: What about video on Facebook is that something you're doing and recommend? Patrick: Yeah you know [inaudible 00:32:46.1] there are working really well, there's video component in there. But yeah we're seeing great conversion off of short video. And you know you … on that creative side you have to have high quality images and the videos don't have to be very long; two, three … three to six seconds perfectly in there. Joe: I think the quality I think the audience gets because that's the number one thing in terms of their own website and the Amazon seller accounts is top quality photos that should be the first thing. All right so we talked about Google AdWords, we talked about Facebook, any other thoughts in terms of you sitting down with somebody having a drink and what they should look at if they're running an e-commerce paid advertising campaign? Patrick: Yeah I mean actually on the paid advertising side I … you just have to keep exploring the platform's interest, is that really good … if you know how to use that platform it's becoming a very good conversion platform. And it's interesting when you start to see these new platforms come out typically because they're new there's not a lot of complex decision there so if you can … it's kind of a land grab. It's kind of like what Facebook did to Google. Facebook was a new platform, they finally got their Ads Manager to work properly and Power Editor is what they call it. And people have done really really well. Same thing is happening with Pinterest now. They've got their advertising technology and algorithm is starting to do really well in the backend of collecting data and saying oh this person who bought this is also buying this and they look alike kind of thing. Pinterest is becoming a CPA platform. Joe: Okay, so AdWords, Facebook, Pinterest … and when we say AdWords when we say that we are talking about Google content searches plus I assume were talking about YouTube looped in there as well. Patrick: Yeah YouTube is very tough in terms of direct conversing. What you have to do on YouTube is you use YouTube as a mid-funnel driver to your branded keyboard search. So I know that that sounds challenging but your creating an awareness campaign but you're looking at how that's driving cheap CPA in AdWords because it's your brand and that costs less than say some generic term that like clubs or something like that; whatever you're selling. Joe: Okay. So when you work with a client do you work on … obviously, you've got a budget that you work on, goal setting with either cost per lead or cost per acquisition things of that nature. People … my point is that I know that when I was in the audience is just listening thinking about hiring someone that I was worried that they're going to blow up my budget on it. Patrick: Oh yeah. Joe: Do you work with them on all those goals as well? Patrick: Oh absolutely and everybody is logged in. We're typically buying on your account so nothing's getting taken out of there. And again like everything starts with that audit. But back to your point about I think what entrepreneurs do is they need that margin or store ad to be really high to afford the inventory. And what we go about with Dave and some of the other entrepreneurs here is we want to help you with that. So we'll [inaudible 00:36:19.8] with you so that you can take a little bit more risk on the advertising side. And we talked about this a little bit before the show and it's what I talked to Jason about- Joe: Yeah let me just jump in and get to the point so people understand. Patrick: Yeah. Joe: Part of the biggest problem that a bootstrapped physical products company has is amazing growth and lack of capital to buy more inventory; they're growing at 100% month over month, year over year. And they're taking all of that working capital and putting it right back in inventory and just trying to keep up. And what I do or anybody at Quiet Light does evaluation for that business we talk about planning. One of the simplest things to be more profitable is just don't run out of inventory. But it's kind of hard because they run out of money and can't keep up with that growth. So what you're talking about is as an agency, as a firm, as a partner- Patrick: As a partner. Joe: You're willing to work with them and lend them money to buy that inventory. Patrick: That's right. When we went from $80 to $16 CPL, we broke our partner's logistics. That … I can sum up what you're talking about in just amazing growth; we have the same problem. So you don't have enough capital, no bank is going to give you a decent loan, your business is too young in the first three years and so we recognize that. We're able to look at your advertising and we'll tell you what we can do on the execution side. But we have to make sure that you have the logistics down in the inventory to go take those risks. And we want to take those risks with you. So overall it's to grow your business as big as you possibly can. So that's the goal. That's how we make money. Joe: It's [inaudible 00:38:11.9] it's not all that different from Quiet Light, we're here to help. We have that … sometimes that stigma of oh you're a broker and that was the hardest thing for me going from entrepreneur owning my own business to entrepreneur that's a broker advisor is that those entrepreneurs they say you know I never want to sell my business. I don't want to talk to you. I don't want you to talk me into something. But we are here to help and help you grow your business and build that relationship so that when you plan to sell you'll exit and you'll exit well. Patrick: That's right. Joe: And what you're doing is the same thing is you're helping more than anything else. Of course, you're a business trying to make a living too and obviously doing it very well. But you're going to do the audit for free, you're going to do the test for free. Patrick: Yeah. Joe: And then you're going to dramatically reduce that cost for acquisition or cost for lead whatever the case might be in what the parameters are that you set with the client. Patrick: That's right. Joe: And they're going to have a problem which is dramatic growth and they're not going to be able to keep up with the inventory. They probably already can't keep up with the inventory purchasing and you're going to be there to help fund the inventory purchases and keep this growing which allows you to spend more money on their behalf and a great cost really a great cost for acquisition and make more money for yourself along the way as well. Patrick: Yeah. When we started our company we did it on American Express and Google AdWords buy in YouTube. It [inaudible 00:39:37.5] credit card every $700, so you know I feel your pain that you were feeling and we get it and it's real. Growth is tough to manage; very tough to manage. So for me, I like to consider myself sort of a scaling expert whether that embodies locations and sales. I'm good at that. I mean there are people here that will just do that … building a brand from scratch and selling it for hundreds of millions of dollars. Joe: That's amazing that you get that kind of talent that is choosing to work with you. It's kind of a great working environment for these folks. Patrick: Yeah. Joe: Ok look I never have to work again for the rest of my life but you're making it fun and we're changing people's lives so let's go ahead. Patrick: Yeah and think about Joe, I meant it's exciting. I mean you're in this business because you get to meet really interesting other entrepreneurs. And they all bring something interesting to the table. When they take a nap on we've all been in that battle together and this is a new sort of idea like why are you doing this so- Joe: It's great. Patrick: Yeah it's got to be a part where we're really excited about it and happy to bring it to the market. Joe: Yeah listen, I want to end it here simply because people should be reaching out to you. It's a very least they're going to learn something in the review process. They're going to learn at the very least what they're screwing up on, what they're doing wrong, and what they can do. Choose to do it themselves or- Patrick: Anything works, that's right. Joe: Have you test it and prove that you can do it better than they can. And then they can free themselves up for other things as well like additional product development and clean documentation on their financials. So I say that in every podcast episode hire a good [inaudible 00:41:23.0]. Patrick: That's right. Joe: And one priest, they've heard me preach before. Patrick listen thanks for being on the show. Thanks for taking time out of your day I know you're very busy. We'll go ahead and get this produced get it out to folks and share it with you as well so you can share it with your team. Patrick: Joe thanks for having me. Joe: It's great man, thank you. We'll talk to you soon. Patrick: All right man, take care. Thanks for listening to another episode of the Quiet Light Podcast for more resources from this episode head over to quietlightbrokerage.com. If you're enjoying the show please leave a rating and review on iTunes. This helps share the messages from the show with more business owners like you.   Links: Free review and test: hello@strikesocial.com Inc. 500 Ranking Strike Social

Chris got fired from his last job, thankfully! He was speaking with co-workers about his affiliate revenues he was making on the side and his boss found out and fired him! Fast forward almost 10 years and Chris is the host of the UpFuel Podcast and an expert in the Amazon Affiliate space. He is the owner of several businesses in the Amazon space, including affiliate, SaaS and physical product businesses. His opinions and recommendations are not theories…they are from real life experiences. Chris is humble…you'll get that in the Podcast. He didn't sell or pitch anything. He just shared his experiences being an Amazon Affiliate entrepreneur. One thing he said over and over when it came to being successful within the Amazon Affiliate space is to “differentiate” your site. Make sure that whatever product line you choose to pursue, that you differentiate your site from others…there needs to be a strong reason why the end user would review products on your site versus the competition. Episode Highlights: Chris has been self-employed for just under 10 years. His Amazon Affiliate income replaced his “job” income…before he was fired. He owns wordpress plugins, saas, affiliate and physical product businesses. Each niche has its strengths. Choose a niche that is of interest if you are starting out. If you are building a portfolio of Amazon Affiliate sites, then a system and process takes precedence over passion. Price point matters GREATLY within the affiliate space. Develop a product review site, not an information site to help buyers make decisions. Content is still critical, and Chris outsources much of it these days. Amazon's cookie length is 24 hours, allowing you to make money off products you are not reviewing. A long term approach is the key to long term success. Building links can accelerate ranking, but is no replacement for good quality content. When buying…beware of PBNs! Transcription: Mark: Joe how are you? Joe: I'm doing fantastic Mr. Daoust, how about you? Mark: Good. I'd understand you talked to a friend of Quiet Light and a friend of Brad one of our brokers here, Chris Guthrie. Joe: Yeah Chris is from UpFuel.com and AmaSuite and I mentioned those upfront because we didn't talk about it at all during the podcast. He's an entrepreneur, have been self-employed for about 10 years, went off on his own after he got fired. He was actually talking to his coworkers and bragging about how much money he was making doing affiliate marketing and his boss found out and fired him; probably the best thing that ever happened to him because he'd been doing very well ever since. And the subject of the podcast is really specifically focused on the Amazon Affiliate Space. Meaning you build the site doing product reviews on say vacuum cleaners and people look at those reviews click on one that they like and it takes them to Amazon, somebody buys it on Amazon and you get paid. And it's really Chris's … one of his areas of expertise and I mentioned Up Fuel which is his podcast and his blog that he talks about this on so I would recommend people tune in. But also AmaSuite which is a software service that he's built that helps people sort of narrow the path in terms of what they want to find, what products, how to … what niche, what category and he didn't talk about it at all. He didn't pitch. He didn't promote so I'm doing a little bit for him because what I was trying to get was a clear path for people that want to either build one from scratch or buy one and grow it or things of that nature. And I think that he was hesitant to talk about his own product because he's such a nice guy. He really … listen Mark I'm going to, don't let this go to your head but he reminded me of you a little bit which is he just wants to have conversations and help people. And when he helps people it comes back around. And it was a great great great show and I think it'll help a lot of people in terms of the Amazon Affiliate Space. Mark: He reminded you of me huh? Joe: Yeah just the better looking, a lot better looking. Mark: The poor fellow. Joe: All right well let's get to it … I mean if you … it's got to be good so let's get to it then. Mark: All right here we go. Joe: Hey folks it's Joe Valley from Quiet Light Brokerage and today I've got Chris Guthrie on the line with me. Hey Chris how are you doing? Chris: I'm doing well thank you for having me. Joe: Chris you're like a … you're a little bit of famous in my world you know. You are. You're like a star. I know you from your podcast and we've run in the same circles for years but didn't get a chance to meet each other until last October right? It's Rhodium Event Weekend out in Vegas. It turns out you're very good friends with one of our brokers here, Brad Wayland. You guys are in the same neck of the woods I think right? Chris: Yeah well actually he's an up and a little bit south to Seattle; he's over several states but- Joe: Okay so in the internet world I guess you're in the same neck of the woods because you're- Chris: That's right. Joe: You should like candies; you guys don't even if grocery's on. Chris: Yeah. Joe: But you talk to each other often? Chris: Definitely, yup. Joe: Well he speaks very highly of you. And I … as I said pre intro here we don't do fancy intros. I don't have your bio in front of me. I know about you. I know what you do a little bit. But I think folks want to hear it directly from you. So why don't you give us a little bit of background on how you got started in the internet space and what you do for a living these days. Chris: Definitely. Yeah so probably the reason why I try and put myself out in the first place is just because it leads to conversations and other different types of opportunities. That's kind of some eyesight a long time ago when I was digging into this online space that I wanted to blog about it and talk about it because it would lead to relationships and friendships that I count people out and they count me out. And that's sort of why when you said the famous thing I think … I don't really think that but it's more just that's kind of why I went with that direction. But yeah I pretty much just have been doing various online businesses now for about 8 ½ years full time. On the Amazon Affiliate Side of things that's actually how I was able to first leave my day job. I was just fired but I left ahead that job and was able to just keep doing online stuff because my Amazon Affiliate income had replaced my day job income. And so I just basically got to work the next day working on building more sites and growing the main primary site I had at the time. But yes so other than Amazon Affiliate thing I also run WordPress plugins, a SaaS company, physical product company, and other different types of Amazon Affiliate or well regular affiliate websites as well. So a bunch of different things along the way but yeah I've been here right for quite a while. Joe: So what's your favorite in terms of running the business? Do you like the physical product space which takes working capital and things of that nature or the Amazon Affiliate Space? Chris: It's tough to say because each one has its benefit. With the affiliate side of things, you don't have any … you don't have to deal with any capital it's just other than your initial capital to invest in the content creation and building a site out. There isn't going to be as many costs associated with that especially once you get up in ranks and start making money. And then there is … in many cases there's less ongoing expenses. But on the physical product side you're constantly putting in more cash and then a lot of cases it's just a matter of trying to lay the damage to yourself for as long as possible so you can continue to grow that business. I mean everyone has a different goal in terms of what they want to do with any business type but in the physical profit side you've got to do … you've got to re-invest so much more. So I can't really answer I guess one way or the other I think it really comes down to what people are most interested in. For me, I like both and so that's kind of why I still kind of have my feet in both areas; both on the physical product side and if the affiliate side and then also selling software and things like that. Joe: Got you. Well as we talked a little bit before we started recording, I've sold a number of affiliate spaces, businesses where they're selling Amazon Affiliate products and making money through Amazon Affiliates. And it's becoming more and more prevalent in some of the event groups like Rhodium Weekend, a lot of folks getting very interested in that. I've always been in the physical products space, I had a couple of content sites and my physical products site was actually write good quality content and Google will reward me was my methodology. And it happened but I sold physical products. But the affiliate space is fascinating for me and I think more and more people are wanting to learn more about it. So that's obviously why we're chatting today and want to really get your expertise on how do you get started in this space? How do you focus on growth? Can you ramp it up? Can you do pay per click? Do you do social media? Do you do the tricks and tactics that they do with physical products on Amazon, or what's the approach? And then maybe keep in mind that we have both buyers and sellers that listen to the podcast. So tell me from a starting point how do you begin in the Amazon Affiliate Space? Do you just simply research a product, pick one, and go with it? Do something you love? What would you recommend to those listening? Chris: Yeah definitely. So for the way I like to do things is I like to look into … it's more of a just general niche research. And that's of course … you said that where there's a lot of baggage because there's a whole different bunch of different ways you can do this. You can use various tools to help with the research process. You can just go out to Google based on things you're interested in and do research in that way. On the Amazon Affiliate side, that's what I'd spent more of my time doing was focusing more on areas that I was most interested in personally. So I had a site that was focused on like smaller computers and that was something that I was interested in personally. So that's kind of how I decided. I was looking at the various niches online and what people were ranking for and how they're making money. And it just seemed like a lot of the content they are creating wasn't really … in many cases at least for the niche that I was in before I sold that site, they weren't even actually reviewing the products that they're talking about. They are just basically writing articles and using CNET [inaudible 00:08:34.7] large conglomerates, larger websites to come up with the information they could write about. So what I did and so I was … you know contacted these companies and got them to send me products for free and I sent it back and do things like that. So with any site that I do whether it's Amazon Affiliate or anything else it's … for me, it's mainly about finding a way to differentiate. So looking at any niche is just okay what can I do to be better or to better serve the audience than the existing niches that are out there? So I usually- Joe: Okay. I would think it would matter that it's something you're interested in because with an Amazon Affiliate Space you're reviewing the products. You're writing content about it. You're sharing your voice and your opinion. It seems like it'll be important that is something that you like. Chris: Yeah definitely I mean that's … for me that was the approach. I mean I think that if the goal and this isn't something that I've done personally but if the goal is to really systemize and launch dozens of sites or something like that then you would need to just … you could really do just things your interested in because you can't potentially run out of those. But you'd be looking at different types of criteria just like what's the average sign price of a product, that's one of the things that you focus on as well is if you're focusing on a niche where the price is much higher then you can make more money in Amazon's Affiliate program because of the way they have the structure; their affiliate payouts. But that's something to consider as well is just the price of the items that are going to be sold. Joe: Okay so focus a little bit on something that you like but also look at the math behind it in terms of the Amazon Affiliate Payouts and the different categories that they have and the price points. Because you're going to get a paid … you get paid a percentage of the close transaction I assume; is that right? Can you touch on that a little bit, how you make money as an affiliate? Start from scratch and assume that people are tired of physical products or tired of SaaS products and they want to maybe buy one of these. How do you make money doing it? Go right into that a little bit. Chris: Yes, so the way that it's done pretty much is just focusing on … actually to see and try to pull up the actual charts that I have memorized it off the side of my head but each category will have different types of payouts. And pretty much the way you can … I would say and try and pull it really quick but I have it in front of me … yeah, so the way that I would that is find- Joe: So somebody reviews a product and let's say they're reviewing vacuum cleaners. And someone sells vacuum cleaners on Amazon; obviously, they do. And I'm talking about the reviews on those physical products and someone clicks on the link and goes to buy it on Amazon, I get paid a percentage of that but I never have to own the physical product that's the upside of this right? I get a percentage of the sale but never have to purchase the inventory, correct? Chris: Exactly yup and in pretty much the … and I was trying to find the category here, so every category is different and they'll show you which … what the fees are like I'd give you one example, so if it's outdoor tools for instance that's 5.5% as a percentage that you'll get. And the great thing too is any time that you send someone to Amazon you'll get a commission on any product that they buy while they're on Amazon. So even if you're referring people to vacuum cleaners then you can get sales on other types of these accessories as well within a 24 hour window. That's the cookie blank for Amazon. Joe: Excellent. So I know that with physical products you can get to the top fairly fast. There's different processes and categories and not just on Amazon but if you're selling a physical product all that you need to do is pay some PPC ads for instance with Google Ad Words. It's not a winning formula oddly … obviously all the time but with affiliate how are you getting traction? How are you getting up to page one of the search engines and is it a short term game or is it a long term game? Chris: Yes, definitely more of a long term game. With any website that I'm trying to build out and rank it's more of kind of like we say you're creating content or someone is creating content for you. Looking at what's ranking there and listing okay what can I do that's better than that? And then having someone or doing it yourself. Creating out that content and creating something better. Things that you can do to accelerate the process of trying to rank would be building links and doing things like that. For me most of the time it's more of an emphasis on the content creation side aspect but like in the case of the examples I was referring to before that I sold, I would do things like trying to … because mine was in the tactical category, I try to do things like breaking news within that niche. And I would contact larger sites to say hey this product is available on Amazon now. And like in gadget and other types of sites like that, I had a link back to my site because of doing that. So it's like another way to try and help with getting more link authority from external sites that would help with the content that I was creating for that site. But that's kind of the process that … and I would never do anything like pay advertising for affiliate sites. It's … and I'm not sure if any of Amazon affiliate person out there that's doing that. For me I just … it never [inaudible 00:13:30.0] just because I know that the margins you're getting from the sales of the products you're referring rather. Joe: Yeah. Chris: There's not really enough money actually if I'd like to drive then paid traffic to try and convert that paid traffic. Joe: Right. Chris: Years and years ago people would do just racked paid advertising straight to Amazon's website and you could do that before they banned it but that was like years and years ago. Joe: Got you. Well, they get smarter every year and fix the problems and make it tougher. And the people that are doing it right, I think survive in the long run and knows that cheating to get to the top end up getting kicked to the curb hopefully anyway. Chris: Yeah. Joe: So with an Amazon affiliate site, some people have the impression that if you've got a physical product site that you're constantly managing customer service, constantly managing inventory and that it's a grind, you get to constantly churn out new skews to stay on top of the competition and then, of course, grow beyond Amazon.com to the different countries. It sounds like and some people get the impression that it sounds like, seems like Amazon Affiliate would be build it and let it grow slowly and it's a lot less work. But from what you just said which is breaking news and staying on top of things you're putting in the same kind of effort on a daily basis I would assume with an affiliate business as you are with that physical products business or is that not the case? Chris: It's not necessarily the case. I think it really depends on the niche that you're in because you know it like before we hit recording you mentioned another mutual friend that does Amazon Affiliate things as well. Joe: Yuan Fitzner let's just say his name out loud. So Fitzner it's you and he's a great guy. For anybody who doesn't know him, find him through Rhodium Weekend; he's fantastic. Chris: Yeah so he's probably a good person at all as well but he doesn't do any link building, right? He focuses more on just creating the content and that's similar to the strategy that I do as well. But in the case of the niche that I was in specifically before I sold that site doing that as a strategy was … I knew there was a benefit there. Because I think one time Engadget linked to the site and they didn't change the affiliate link. I think it was like several thousand dollar affiliate fees that they … but in that case, it was more just like here is something that fits- Joe: You didn't point that mistake to the under laying and good backing. Chris: None of it, it's just like tip line and you just say hey here's this product that's out now and people are probably excited about it and it's available on Amazon now. And yes that was a nice little bonus but … so now it was more of like niche specific. I definitely think that … I'm probably more often than not actually. You're building out affiliate sites because I had other sites as well. I have other sites that it's not like that. Where we're not trying to break news or do things like that. It's just more niche specific. Even people in the technical space they don't want to do that approach and they don't have to. I mean that's just kind of the style that we chose for that site. Joe: Okay so good quality content, SEO friendly over the long run and theoretically you'll get rewarded. Is that the basic simplified dumbed down approach? Chris: Yeah I mean it does simplify it but that's really kind of the core. And I think I really emphasize just the differentiation aspect. Like any site that I build it's always like okay I don't really want to enter this area unless I'm willing to do something multiple times better than what's already there. So that's the approach I take for really building any site. Joe: What are some of the mistakes that you've made then in terms of doing these affiliate sites? I mean what did you learn the hard way? Chris: Yeah. So of the some of the mistakes I made was … at least for me personally, I do better having fewer sites and just focusing on doing really well with those sites as opposed to having many sites. Like another [inaudible 00:17:09.7] can find that was Spencer he … years and years ago he used to do like hundreds of niche websites and make money from Google AdSense. For me I never … she was interested in doing that type of approach and systemizing in that way. But for me at least it was just a matter of trying to focus on two small niches and so I can … I think I had one that was on HDMI cable reviews. Which was a fail because that was … HDMI cables are inexpensive and then it's also it's just kind of a small niche and … well, not necessarily a small niche but it was kind of a … it was hard to do well with that one then than some of the other niches I went after. Joe: That could seem like it would change a whole lot over the years either. Chris: Yeah I mean it was … well, that's the change in standards in terms like new for kay, signals and things like that. But yeah it was just like if you can go with higher price items that's helpful right? With the part that I was doing is computers and so it'd be you know … or small laptops rather that would be more of a payout each time. Joe: Okay, I had an example given to me maybe at December, January you know someone that was passionate about … I think it was salt water fishing and writing a blog about salt water fishing and within that doing the affiliate links on the different tackle and lures that you can get with salt water fishing. Would that be an approach that someone could take? You know if I have a passion like that whether it's salt water fishing or basket weaving if you will, to build a site based upon that passion and then just go with that approach? And then the follow up question is all right great how do I learn about SEO as you have over the years? What resources do you have? Because it seems again really simplified to say just build a site that you really are passionate about, find great products, review them, and off you go. But you're still got to build an SEO from this site and write good content that that the … your Google is gonna love, right? Chris: Yeah so going back to the example, I think if you're building out just a site that you're passionate about and then trying to then add Amazon Affiliate as like a monetization … kind of like an add-on, I think it's harder to make Amazon a larger portion of the revenue for that site. If the goal isn't from the start like hey we're going to build out like a more of a review type site as opposed to here's something that we're interested at about just general information and then here is while reading this article happened to may be interested in this specific lure or whatever the example is you gave. Joe: Salt water fishing. Chris: Yeah, so that just from what I've been looking at sites in the past it just seems like that's more challenging. What usually ends up happening in those types of cases, the website owner usually ends up making a larger portion of their money just from banner ads or other types of ad platforms like that and then Amazon is more of a supplemental as opposed to the sites that I build. It'd be more … really focused around the review side of things. And so it'll just be like people that are coming to this content are interested in reviews about this product and so then that traffic is more likely to buy something than people that are just interested in general information come to my site and then they may or may not be in a buying state. Joe: So a clear differentiate is a content site that's just giving information about products in general versus a review site when you're comparing a variety of different products. And when you choose one of those products it's going to Amazon and you get a percentage of that revenue. That'd be, right? Chris: Yeah and I don't think it's a bad thing to do … really your example where you're building out because it's great to generate revenue from ads and just have a lot of traffic as well just from various articles you're writing and all about salt water fishing and then also be able to make money from Amazon with the Affiliate Program. It's just there's two different ways that you might see sites if you're on the buying or building or selling side of things. Joe: Well on those three sides which do you like … do you think, let's just talk about two; building or buying. We had Walker Deibel on the show a couple of weeks ago talking about build versus buy or buy versus build. It's actually in a book. He's coming on the Quiet Light team as an advisor in July. Do you personally in terms of specifically the affiliate space, Amazon Affiliate Space do you think it's better to build or to buy? Chris: Well I've done all of them. Build, buy, sell, every aspect on the Amazon Affiliate Side. I prefer now at least … I've been doing this for a lot longer to … or that depends right? Because it depends on for me at least where my capital might be tied up; either I just recently bought something or I'm doing other investments that are outside the online space and I want it just free of capital. And so I'm not actively looking to buy something or I'm just trying to focus on okay now that I've got that other thing going on but I can try and focus on scaling up all my things and as well. I prefer, if I had to pick one I'd say I prefer building and then being able to sell after that because for me at least I'd like to be able to invest less of my own personal cash. I know you mentioned [inaudible 00:22:18.3] before, [inaudible 00:22:19.4], a lot of the buyers there they don't have access to capital that I don't have access to through … you know people have consider with more money that they can then use as investing partners. And so I suppose if I … given the opportunity I had more capital then I would probably be doing more buying. So I guess it's tough to say. If you don't have cash and you want to just get started then building would make the most sense and maybe you can sell once you get to a certain point. That gives you some capital to either reinvest and build more sites or maybe build or buy other things. But if you have access to capital from … for any reason then buying would be great because you're able to just start with something existing. Joe: How long has it been for you from that build to sell? Do you typically hold something for 12, 24, 36 months? What have you seen? What do you try to set as a goal for yourself when you're building something? I think okay I'm going to build this to eventually sell it if that's your goal, how long do you like to hold it for? Or does it just depend? Chris: Well, a lot of the times it's more just a … it really does depend. Because half the time I do this site … well most of the time actually when I do these sites it's more a matter of I'm building something up, I like the cash flow and that's kind of the main goals is just building our monthly cash flow from various websites, businesses, etcetera. So that's kind of more of what I'm after is just getting more cash flow and then rather than just trying to pull out my capital right away and just to sell. So for me, it's all about the cash flow and I am not always interested in exactly trying to sell. Joe: How many how many balls do you have in the inner; Amazon affiliate wise, how many sites are you juggling now? Chris: If I were to add up all the different sites it'd probably be … I had to look- Joe: You know it's more than a dozen or so when you have to look. Chris: Well, no it's more I was trying to get a specific number. I'll say it's less than a dozen but I also include in that other affiliate sites that just make money from other CPA type offers opposed to Amazon. Joe: Got you. Chris: Because kind of once … for me, Amazon was a starting point. That was kind of how I got into the whole space was building out this Amazon Affiliate Site, I was doing it on the side outside of my working hours in a completely unrelated job and just trying to find a way to earn enough money to do this full time. And then once I started making enough money from Amazon it opened up all these different opportunities to try and do other things as well. And that's one is going to software, creating tools for Amazon Affiliate Sellers or well affiliates rather and doing things like that. Joe: How long has it been since you were thankfully fired from the last day job you had? Chris: Yeah, I was looking it up. Actually, I have it on my calendar October 13th is the day and it was … it will be nine years this year, later this year rather. And then I'll be 10 years the next year but that will be sort of, that'll be what 2000 … I'm trying to think now what the year it is, 2018 so it's 2009 I believe. Joe: 2009. Chris: Yeah. Joe: It's a long time to be self-employed; it's impressive that you pulled that off. Chris: Yeah. And now for me at least it's more of a matter of just further building out multiple different income streams and revenue streams from a variety of different businesses. There's … well, that's a whole other discussion right whether you should focus on just one thing or kind of spread it out. For me, it was more like build something out that starts making cash. And it's like well I don't know if I can really sell this for enough to make it worth selling. It's not going to change my life in any meaningful way so I'll keep it and have someone help me out to run it. Well, that's kind of the approach I'm working with. Joe: So if someone is listening to this and they were in your shoes, you know where you were 10 years ago and they had a day job and they want to do what you've done which is building Amazon Affiliate Sites and make some income on the side what should they expect? Should they … if they pick a category they like, they do a review site, they sign up, they get involved should they … would your expectations that they're going to hit 1 out of 10 on sites that they do, 2 out of 10, 5 out of 10. What would you give them in terms of a ratio so that they can understand and of course these are all ballpark numbers and what kind of money can they really make? I mean we're talking about on the small side a few thousand bucks a month and the people that are big and really experienced at this you know what kind of money are they making? Chris: Yeah you know that's a tough … it's tough I think with the ballpark it's a challenge to give an answer to that because the experiences that people have may lend themselves to be able to be successful more easily. Joe: All right, well look everybody listens to me all right. And they're like Joe you're an idiot but I like you and you know would … I have people tell me like they feel like we're old friends from this nude podcast. But you know me through Brad, we chatted, if I was to do this … let's be specific. You could say … be honest say, Joe, you're going to do 1 out of 10. Just face it, Joe, you're not going to do well. I mean you're the expert what would you guess if people are going to do this with some these in experience on a thing that they love and they're smart and they're going to do research online, they're gonna go to your podcast, they're going to go read everything about Chris Guthrie and figure how you do it. What are they going to do, 1 out of 10, 1 out of 5, what do you think? Chris: Ah if they're learning from me it's going to be 100% right. Joe: You're a humble guy every time okay. Chris: Yeah and though I'd say probably it's … with a lot of things, you get into it and sometimes they'll hit and they'll do well. So for me, the best site that I have was doing over 10k a month. Joe: Okay. Chris: Worst site would be like $300 a month. And that's where I'll be some of the weaker ones and then some are them between where I have a few thousand or so. Hit rate would be more like maybe 25-50% with sites that would be doing pretty well. But it … yeah, it's just really tough to answer that question for me. Joe: You improved that hit rate I would assume with the research that you do upfront. Is that right? I mean just like a physical products business on the web, on Amazon or Shopify whatever it is if you do your research up front; what are the competition price points, how are you going to sell it, things of that nature- Chris: Yeah. Joe: And you're doing the same thing with Amazon Affiliate; you need to pick a product with a great margin, something that you can write about, something that has been up searches online. What tools do you use to help … even if you have a passion for something whether it's worth it on … whether it's worth creating an Amazon Affiliate Business? So are there certain tools that you use to help that hit rate go up? Chris: So well tools for like the research side of things? Joe: Yeah to help ensure that the path that you're going down is going to be as successful as possible. Chris: Yes, I use a lot of SEMrush actually. So I use that tool quite a bit because I just like to pull up a site, see what stuff is ranking well, where they're getting their traffic from and- Joe: Do you have the paid subscription for that or do you just use the free version? Chris: So I fluctuate off and on. So from the process of building or going back to yeah I'd more than all do the paid subscription, and then if it's okay we've got enough stuff on our plate let's just focus on what we have and not create anything new then it's like well I don't really need to pay extra subscription right now. So I fluctuate in and out. Ahrefs is another tool I use as well although that was another one that I just was okay I got a good sense of where our competitors are in their links, where they're getting traffic, and okay I cancel out as well. So it's like- Joe: I always get that one wrong, it's A-H-refs is that right? We did a giveaway when we launched the podcast on an account on a subscription for that but it was Mark's area of expertise. Can you spell it out for me? Chris: Yeah, it's A-H-R-E-F-S.com and I'm not even sure how you're supposed to pronounce that either. Joe: Okay. Chris: So I mean I met someone that works for the company at that conference as well. I didn't bring that up but yeah- Joe: Mumble what they said that'll generally work. If you actually … the way my 16 year old does, he just speaks confidently and I believe him when he's comp … no idea what he's talking about but he speaks confidently. I think that's the trick. Chris: Yeah. Joe: All right so Ahrefs- Chris: Yup. Joe: You went through it and that one is more of what links the sites have right? Is that what you're looking at? Chris: Yeah, so it'd be more like looking at both viewers and the lengths for me. I was merely just trying to see where my key rankings were and so I was kind of more just tracking how it is we're doing. For SEMrush that's why I would use just the tool for research. And the thing is that here's what … the thing with tools and especially the two tools I just mentioned they've been around for years and years and years so they have so many different things that I probably didn't even know. Like I probably didn't even need one or the other it's just like when you get comfortable using one tool for one thing you'd use it for just that one thing. And then you might use this tool for the other thing. But that's kind of what the approach I would do. Joe: Okay. So do that research upfront and what you're looking for is traffic, competition, links, things of that nature before you go down the path to increase success rate, any other recommendations that you'd give somebody just starting off? Chris: Just the main thing I would say is well … I mean if you're looking at what … just looking at larger sites that are doing well. Seeing … I try to reverse engineer a lot. So when you're looking at starting from now that you're doing your research process and seeing what sites are getting in the traffic beyond just like figuring out why are they getting this traffic. Is it because they have a bunch of links pointing at them? Is it because their content is much much better? That's … I guess I keep coming back to this like but it's always for me differentiation. What is it that they're doing that's really doing that is working really well for them and then how can I do better than that? And so in the process of doing that research and looking at that then you're going to see okay it looks like they're using AdThrive or something for their ad platform and then they're using Amazon's Affiliate Program and maybe they're using LinkShare so you link to Walmart and things like that. Joe: From a buyer's side if somebody came to you and said “Hey look I'm looking at buying this site can you give me your opinion on it?” What things should buyers look for that maybe somebody in the Amazon Affiliate Space has done this sort of cheat and it's not going to last, is there anything that stands out that people should be aware of or look for? Chris: It's not because … you want to look at where they … if they are building links you want look at where they're doing it because there's you know PBNs or things like that are definitely more gray area. Joe: If I were … go ahead and say what PBN stands for, please. Chris: Yeah, Private Blog Networks, that's where people build out like huge networks of blogs and then they use links on those blogs and point them at the site. And then those blogs are getting traffic or links part of them as well. So that looks like you're getting links from higher quality sites when in fact they're just sites people would construct pretty much solely for the purpose of pointing links at properties they own or properties their clients own. And I can't remember exactly how long ago it was but Google cracked down and quite a bit. From what I've seen people kind of just got it underground and so it's kind of the [inaudible 00:33:26.3] a lot but … so looking at that is helpful in terms of how a buyer can protect themselves from that. Usually, you're able to use some of these third party tools to help check that out. There's also things where if you're signing an agreement that's saying I haven't used a PBN and then you find out that they are because maybe you're ranking stopped or go down because they've stopped in turning to run that PBN and point the links at you then that's something that you could have legal recourse to go after them. But that might be something out of buying side that included- Joe: Yeah, that's what you definitely don't want to have to do is to go after them after the fact. Chris: Yeah. Joe: Because you're chasing them for money that you gave them which is never a good position to be in. Chris: Yeah. Joe: But certainly doing the research to see where those … where the traffic's coming from and see if there is a PBN and trying to avoid it as much as possible. I think a lot of the times Chris getting to know the person, trusting a broker that's involved if there is one involved, really getting to know the seller in a positive manner. I always recommend whether it's a $35,000 site and it could apply to 3,500 as well, or a 3.5 million dollar site, if you're buying it, it's your money, you worked hard for it, get on a plane, spend an extra thousand dollars stay in a Holiday Inn whatever and meet the person face to face. Do a Zoom or Skype conference call so you can see them and talk to them but meet them face to face before you close the transaction. You can go under LOI in advance but I just don't think there's a better substitute for a handshake, having a lunch or dinner or beer and getting a better feel for them. Of course, you've got to do that due diligence and that research and hire experts like yourself or [inaudible 00:35:14.5] whoever might do the research if you don't have it to protect your money. It's something you worked hard for and I can tell you right now that when you make an investment and you blow it, it's really really hard to pull the trigger again. I know a lot of people that have done that. I know more people that have been incredibly successful and then unsuccessful. But those that thought they knew everything and thought that everybody was kind and trustworthy like they were and they pulled the trigger and something changed in the world, there was a shift with an algorithm update or whatnot and things just fall apart. They can fall apart very quickly. So lots of research meet somebody face to face, use the tools that you're talking about, the Ahrefs and SEMrush, check for PBN things of that nature. You know most people are good but it's the few bad ones that you just want to avoid in my opinion, in my experience. As far as up the top line revenue you think you know if somebody that can do this maybe they're making $10,000 a month that they do really well, how many hours a week are we talking about that is going to take to operate a business of this nature? Chris: It's definitely if … so for I guess it depends. For me, I'll give … I can really only speak to my own experiences. So for that site that like my bigger site that I had before I sold it, it was probably 15 hours a week or so and then the rest of my time was on other projects. So it wasn't like a full time thing because I was doing it outside my day job in the first place and then I only added a little bit more time because then I thought okay well I've got this new time. I don't want to have all my eggs in one basket because now I have no job and just one primary site and then other sites that are also helpful but wouldn't be enough for me to cover my bills and for … at the time I was like okay I just want to make sure I could … I don't have to go back and get a job. Joe: [inaudible 00:37:01.3] Chris: And so that's kind of the approach that I took and it worked for that site. It really depends on me and a lot of times too with Amazon Affiliate Sites especially, you're able to hire out for a lot of aspects of the process of building; either building, maintaining, any aspect to that because it's just content creation and there are a lot of writers that you can find. They can cover that part. And so if you're not doing it yourself and you're finding ways to get yourself out of that process then it can be much further reduced. Now I try and just … for me it was I try to only come up with ideas and then work with people that can help implement a lot of these or to … it's more just about trying to really limit the amount of time I spend on actually like creating content for instance. I might like to write about something on a blog personally but if I can have someone else do it then it wouldn't make sense for you to do that. Joe: Yeah, content creation can take an awful lot of time. Chris, we're running out of time. Can you share any last minute thoughts or recommendations for those that are listening that are either building, buying, or selling Amazon Affiliate Sites; any last minute advice that you would give them? Chris: Yeah, I would just say that … well, actually I'd say if anyone is curious or has other questions feel free to … I would like to say feel free to email me. Joe: You know without a doubt I want to … let's talk about how they reach you. We'll put it in the show notes as well but you know throw out whatever email address, phone number, blog sites, anything you want to share right now I'd be happy to do that. But we'll also put it in the show notes so everybody can find it in writing and get a link there too. Chris: Yeah so to answer your question I'd say decide on what you want to do right? If you're trying to … and everyone probably has a different expertise or where they're at with their life, what they want to do. If you're limited by a capital and you have a lot of money to invest then it may make sense to just simply build something so you can build it up and then come to your brokers like you guys of course and then sell it and that can give you cash that would … you could then use to reinvest and do those things. And that might be something you would do while you're still at your day job. If you're already on a site where you have access to more money then buying something would make sense. And being able to then take where you're at and growing it from there. I'd really just say that decide which focus you want to go with. Make sure you find ways to differentiate. I mean I kind of bring out that this whole time but for me, everything that I've done with any business is always been for me differentiation and finding ways to do much better than the competition. Joe: That seems to be the good … best key word here is just be different. You don't want to be like everybody else; differentiate yourself. Still do all the things right, still build something that people want to come to and trust but differentiate yourself in whatever way that you can. Excellent. Chris, how do people reach you? How do they find you? Share any information you can now so that they can get in touch with you and talk about this. Chris: Yeah, so best place would probably just be UpFuel.com which is my site. We didn't talk about it much but I sell the WordPress plugin that helps people with Amazon Affiliate things as well and that's EasyAzon.com. Joe: EasyAzon.com? Chris: Yeah so if it's … if you're running WordPress and you know a lot of people do of course then that's a software you can use to help with creating links and earning more money from those links as well. Joe: Excellent. I will make sure that link is in the show notes as well. So UpFuel.com, EasyAzon.com anywhere else that you are in the world? Chris: Twitter @chrisguthrie and yeah so that's probably the main ones but I'm happy to … if any … if you're on the buying side and you're just looking for second opinion, I try and I've just done well with trying to provide value and people with no expectation, no return and then things work out so- Joe: I agree. Just help people have good conversations and it comes back around. All right man listen I appreciate it Chris thanks so much for your time. Hopefully, folks that are either building buying or selling Amazon affiliate sites will get some good resources here. Thanks for your time today I appreciate it. Chris: Thanks.   Links: Upfuel.com: An up to date article with respect to the Amazon affiliate niche. Easyazon.com: The plugin that a lot of WordPress users install as well (they have over 10,000 installs). AMASuite.com: Discover products and how to differentiate and source them inexpensively.

For those of you that don't already know Mike Jackness, he runs an ecommerce business approaching 10m a year in revenue, and is the co-host of the EcomCrew Podcast. On the Podcast Mike shares his direct experience with listeners to help them grow their ecommerce businesses. If you've tuned in to our Podcast regularly, you've heard Mark and I talk about how multiple revenue streams increase the overall value of your business (by de-risking it). So…if you want a more valuable business why not expand it to include email? But email marketing is dead right? All junk mail and spam. If that's true why does Mike get an open rate of 30% on his emails…and generate over 52% of his revenue for ColorIt from email? Because it works…and he does it in a “helpful”, customer friendly way. On today's Quiet Light Podcast Mike shares his process with email marketing using Klaviyo, and talks about how their Facebook synchronization feature enhances his customer reach and overall return on investment. The Facebook ads produce a whopping 1500% return on investment! You can learn about Klaviyo through their online training feature, and listen in to the EcomCrew Podcast and pick up additional tips and strategies. Mike and Dave also offer specific training such as importing from China, Launching on Amazon and finding your product niche. Episode Highlights: Using Klaviyo email marketing software to produce over 50% of revenues Add on the Facebook Synchronization piece and boost your ROI (1500% in Mike's case) Email marketing should be “helpful”. Treat the customers the way you want to be treated. The “trifecta” as a marketer includes an email address, a facebook messenger list and have the customer pixel'd. Google, Yahoo, AOL etc. look for a high open rate. Remove customers who don't open emails after 13 weeks. There are no “secret 10 step plans” that work for every model. Know your business variables and apply them to increase your success. EcomCrew Podcast has produced over 150 Podcasts. And yes..the best episode is #88. Knowing the value of your business and planning for an exit – is the smart thing to do. Transcription: Mark: Oh welcome back from Italy. Joe: Thanks man, it's good to be back. Mark: Ah is it really? Joe: Yeah that's a good question, I don't know. Mark: Well welcome back all the same. I'm sure everybody's glad to hear you instead of me for a change. Joe: I'm a little tanner and a little fuzzy. I haven't shaved in a couple weeks. Mark: Yeah. Joe: Haven't trimmed it a couple of weeks I should say. Mark: Haven't trimmed … are you missing the espresso and the- Joe: Oh man café, ginseng, the views of the ocean. We were at the coast for most of the times as you now we're in Rome as well but up in the north and coast of Italy is absolutely gorgeous. Mark: Hey I got a business idea for you. I think you and I need to start a podcast about traveling to Italy and of course, you would have to go onsite for that. Joe: I think it's a great idea. Let's do it. Mark: All right you guys we're going to shut down Quiet Light Brokerage and move on to a new business, new venture; a podcast about Italy but stay tuned for that. But in the meantime, we do actually have something related to Quiet Light Brokerage and that is … and to buying and selling online businesses; you talked to a mutual friend of ours, somebody who's been a friend of Quiet Light Brokerage for a while Michael Jackness. Joe: Mr. Mike Jackness from EcomCrew. Mike and I go back to him at e-commerce shield presentation he did on email marketing and a Klaviyo on what he does within his ColorIt Company, the adult coloring book company. And you would think email marketing is dead but this guy generates 52% of his revenue from email marketing. Has like a 30% open rate and just nails it, hammers it down and produces a ton of revenue that way and does Facebook synchronization. He talks about it all, on his Facebook synchronization that's part of Klaviyo, don't want to get too technical but he gets a 1500% return on investment. You and I have talked about this all the time, diversification of revenue streams does what to a business other than add more revenue; it's more valuable, right? Mark: It absolutely reduces the risk, increases stability, yeah. Joe: That's right. So we talked about that. We talked about the ability to expand beyond your typical just one source of revenue e-commerce business whether it be your Shopify store or your Amazon FBA site using tools like Klaviyo and Facebook Messenger, things of that nature. And then we talked a little bit about EcomCrew what they do there. EcomCrew is yes a podcast Mike and Dave have been doing it for almost three years now and they just simply help people. They've got a … my favorite subject is the under the hood section where they actually talk to an e-commerce owner about the problems within their business and try to help them right there right on the podcast sharing a lot of detailed information for people to help themselves. Mark: That is pretty cool. He has a ton of knowledge absolutely. The podcast they have is fantastic. I think the topic itself is really fantastic especially as people are trying to build up more integrated marketing systems. You know this idea of having their email coincide with a live Facebook audience and the marketing that you're doing there. Really really kind of advanced stuff but really good stuff and those numbers are staggering; 1500% ROI on Facebook. Joe: Yeah, huge. Mark: Incredible. Joe: Huge and he started small. He started testing little things just like everyone else. It's not like he had all this knowledge, he figured it out along the way. And just to put some numbers behind Mike and his expertise he's hoping that 2018 will be the year when his business overall hits the 10 million dollar revenue mark. So he's not a small player, he's doing a great job. Somebody that is now traveling around the world doing presentations and speaking on E-commerce Group Podcast subject and on email marketing and e-commerce in general, so definitely somebody worth listening to. Mark: You know one thing I do want to say before we jump into the episode, when people are listening to these numbers and hearing things like 1500% ROI, 10 million dollars breaking this year, I think it can be really intimidating for some people that are maybe at the beginning stages to hear this and to see all the opportunity and see so many advanced stuff these people are doing. We did an episode with Dan from Science of Skill who pulled about two million dollars of revenue from an email list of about 11 or 12,000 people. We've talked to Bjork Ostrom from Food Blogger Pro who is completely dominating that world. And I think the one thing just to keep in mind if you're hearing these episodes and seeing what some of these people are doing don't be overwhelmed by it and understand something that you alluded to Joe; he's done this over time. Focus on this continual improvement every day, small little group improvements and you can work yourself up. These guys didn't jump up to this in one month they did this over time. Joe: Yeah and on the podcast EcomCrew, he'll talk to and work with people that are doing 50,000 dollars a year in revenue and that's what they do under the hood and they help that. He'll also do it for folks that are doing half a million in revenue or five million in revenue but you know at all stages there's different tools and resources that can be used to help people grow their business. And bottom line is Mike's just a really nice guy. He's an expert in the arena. He's sharing the information. He's not afraid of competition. He says if I share information about my business and competition comes up and bites me in the heels it's because I didn't do a good enough job in promoting my own products. Mark: That's awesome. All right let's get to it. Joe: Hey folks it's Joe from Quiet Light Brokerage and today I've got Mike Jackness on the line with me. Hey Mike how's it going? Mike: Good man, it's good to be here. It's good to see you, I wish it was in person but it's … at least we're actually … we're in the same room. Joe: I agree. Good to see you as well and I know you've been traveling the world, good to be back in San Diego I hear right? Mike: It is man, like I can live anywhere in the world I want. At least we could at the time when we moved here I was like we had a virtual business but it's we're kind of anchored down here now but I want to be here and I feel sad whenever I had to go somewhere because it's San Diego, it's a pretty awesome spot. Joe: Well you got good problems. You're kind of a big shot now; you're travelling the world [crosstalk 00:06:51.0] all over the place. For those folks listening that don't know you why don't you, as you know we don't do formal introductions here at Quiet Light. Why don't you share a little bit of background on yourself? So what your history is, what you're doing now so that they understand who we're talking to today. Mike: Yeah no problem it's always [inaudible 00:07:07.3] to talk about yourself but I'll give it a shot. I've been doing this online marketing stuff for … this dates me for about 15 years. I actually quit my job back in 2004 and I've been doing this stuff ever since. Like some I retired in between a couple businesses that we were doing for a couple years and RVed around the country and got bored of being retired so we got sucked back into the business again and it was an e-commerce this time and we started doing that a few years ago. It's been almost five years now and are on the road to build an eight figure business this year. We'll get to crack eight figures this year or next year and along the way we've been documenting all that on EcomCrew. So it's been a much different environment than what I was doing before which was affiliate marketing where everybody was really guarded; you never talked about anything you did because everyone was kind of a competitor and going after the same traffic. But in e-commerce, it's like this multi-trillion dollar industry and you're never going to be the one selling all the things in your niche. And one of the things that we do is coloring for adults and I always say like I'm never going to select all the gel pens in the world. So talking about what we do and being open about it I think has been cool and yeah it might create some competitors but if they can catch me I feel like it's my fault. It's kind of been my philosophy plus I'm just more secure about everything I do now that I'm a little bit older. And I look at the things that come out of it positively, which is getting to meet people like you which would never happen if it wasn't for EcomCrew and speaking and all these things. So and for the most part like 99% of what we do; helping other people doesn't adversely affect us and for the one [inaudible 00:08:41.9] that does you know so be it whatever. Joe: Well you just touched on it what you do believe and I'm … for people listening EcomCrew is just that. It's what we do at Quiet Light, it's helping other people. Help them first then things come back to you. And I've seen you do presentations on the adult coloring books and the email marketing behind it. I've listened to the EcomCrew podcast; I worked with Dave as you know as well. So I want to talk about both but let's just answer the simple question first about email marketing; you know I'm an old school direct marketer, I've been self-employed since 1997 believe it or not. Mike: Nice. Joe: It was radio direct marketing back then and then the next evolution at that point was email right? As old isn't email marketing dead, are you making any money with it? Mike: Yeah and it's a trick question right, or it's a blue question, it's a softball question. You know when I first got into doing email marketing for e-commerce I felt the same way and I had drug my feet forever and it's probably one of my bigger regrets in this business for a couple reasons. Number one, I think its human nature to approach stuff in life and in business the way that you think about it yourself. So for me, I flipping hate email. It's my biggest nemesis. I cannot get to Inbox 0 no matter how hard I try. It … I'm unsubscribing for more things than I'm subscribing to just to try to get email under control and I just viscerally have this negative hatred in reaction towards email. So you know I didn't want to get into emailing people because I … you know how I am I like to treat others like I like to be treated. So for me, that was the conflict more than anything. It's like I'm going to start emailing people and I wouldn't want to even receive these emails myself. So that was the basis for the whole thing to start with so I was slow at doing it. But listening to other people talk and going to other you know a lot of these conferences and you still hear email as a prevalent thing and it's important; you should be doing email etcetera etcetera. So eventually I started dipping my toes into it and what I realize now many years later first of all email is 52% of our revenue. I was just looking before doing this podcast; it's 52% of our revenue for ColorIt. So it's a massive amount of our business. But our open rates- Joe: That's 52% of nearly an eight figure business. Mike: So just to … yeah [inaudible 00:11:07.1] that's just on ColorIt.com so we also sell on Amazon and Amazon is two thirds of our business so … but it's two thirds of a million dollar business because ColorIt.com does about a million dollars a year. And as a business overall ColorIt is bigger than that because you add in the Amazon component. But yeah what we do on ColorIt.com like when it's our own website and we control all of our own destiny; email marketing is a mass sort of part of that and it has a massive halo effect that you can't directly determine. But it has a massive halo effect on our Amazon business as well. Because people are reading these emails and they eventually go buy on Amazon. We have a lot of data on this but you can't … it's not empirical, you can't tell definitively like exactly what's going on there. But I mean totally you can look at the numbers and say okay by doing these things over here that it's affecting the stuff over here. So it definitely makes a big difference. Joe: Yeah for sure and then we're going to talk about open rates there in the email before I interrupt. Mike: Yeah. So our open rates are close to 30% so they hover somewhere 28 to 32% depending on what stage we are on scrubbing or list. So one of the things that we work really hard on is email deliverability; making sure things end up in the primary inbox, not in spam; that we are providing value to people so they want to open our emails. So that's been a really big angle for us so we kind of use the 80-20 rule here where at least 80% of our emails are helpful and they're not hitchy in any way of what we're trying to sell you something. And it's really more like 90-10. The vast majority of what we send out is helpful tips and tricks or things you want to know. So for instance in the coloring space; how to blend your shade with colored pencils, how to blend with markers or something like that, how to sharpen your pencils. Here's a time lapse video of how to draw this particular drawing and here's a free copy of it. Here's some stuff from our community other people submitted you might want to like it out as well. We're doing a giveaway this month or fan of the month contest. All these types of things that add value and every now and then once every six weeks or so or eight weeks we're releasing a new product and that will be a part of the sequence. Or maybe there's a Mother's Day sale or the month it's going to be come up soon it'd be a 4th of July sale. But very few of our emails are in that realm and most of them are in here are some helpful tips and tricks. So let's apply that to something besides coloring let's like it like tactical.com, your emails will be 10 things to bring on your next hiking adventure, how to prepare for an emergency, things to put in your bug out bag, what to do when the lights go out; whatever the types of things that we're doing in tactical world. Things that are like truly helpful for people especially I mean right now we're getting into hurricane season so we're going to be releasing a lot of content about that. And you know the fact of the matter is that most people just aren't prepared. Like a hurricane comes or an earthquake, a tornado comes whatever and you have no food and water or a flashlight that are is or all dead whatever it might be. It's actually quite helpful to people to bring us the forefront of their mind even if you just think about it for a second you can actually help save someone's life in this case. So these are the types of things we'll provide and every now in that cycle he check out on your products this might help you as well. So the vast majority we do is trying to train people to want to open our emails, to kind of like … you know and humans are very habit forming creatures. It only takes a few times of doing something to make it a habit. So we try to make this a habit for them and that's our approach. Joe: Yeah it seems to have worked with your open rate which is pretty phenomenal. Let's back up a step, what email software are you using; what do you prefer? Mike: So we're using Klaviyo for almost everything at least in the e-commerce space. You know Klaviyo is just heads and tails above everything else when it comes to e-commerce. It has a direct integration with Shopify, you can build segments within Klaviyo, people that have done particular things and then generate emails based off of that. And probably the feature that it has that's most valuable is the ability to then take those segments and synchronize those segments with a Facebook audience and then you can … it can currently run Facebook Ads to that group of people which is highly effective. And the thing that really got me going with this was actually a really funny story because I had just got done presenting at E-commerce Fuel; I think you might have actually been there. I was talking about email marketing and I was like- Joe: That was Savannah? Mike: Yeah. I think it was in Savannah. And I was like gloating about email marketing and all these cool things that we're doing and at the time that I was really … all I really focused on was mostly email marketing. And what I had said there was at the time our open rates where between 20 and 25% which is still double industry average and we've since improved that. But I was really proud of that fact and someone came up to me after the show. A good friend of mine, Kevin Stucco and he was like well what about the 75% of people that aren't opening your email? And I was just like … it was an instant like aha moment. It kind of knocked me down a peg because I was like all … kind of like in that gloating mindset but it was actually a really good point. Even … you know I was looking at it from one perspective of we're double or more than double the industry average on open rates on email. But what he made me think about was what about all these people that aren't opening email. And one of the things that Klaviyo at the same time was coming out with was that synchronization feature. So we started getting really heavy into Facebook Ads. And what you can do is if for instance there's like someone … let's say your average order frequency is 80 days so what we do as a win back sequence at 90 days we offer them a coupon; the comeback as an email. Well, why not run an ad to them, a Facebook Ad at the same time and Klaviyo makes that really easy. So yeah there's going to be basically three things that can happen; either they're going to open your email, they're going to see your Facebook Ad, or they'll do both. Some people going to see both of your email and your Facebook Ad. But either way, throwing the Facebook stuff into it is a much more effective approach. So it's been really successful for us and now we have these Facebook Ads that run 100 or 1500 to 2000% return on Ad Spend. Joe: Wow. Mike: But the most effective ads that we run are- Joe: It's incredible. Mike: Yeah. Because if you think about it I mean it's a super small audience, we're putting a really small budget together and these are like highly primed people. These are someone that's already bought from us. They kind of maybe forgot about us, you send and ad to them 10% off of course they're much more likely to convert than someone that's called traffic. It's way … this is what people forget about in e-commerce; it's way easier to sell someone something the second time than the first time. But the problem is that we all get our high off of getting new customers so that's what we always focus on is those angles. But what really brings the profitability to e-commerce is nurturing the existing customer. Joe: Lifetime value of a customer. Mike: Yeah. Joe: Repeat customer acquisition all that good stuff. So Klaviyo is the software of choice. Your emails separate yourself out from the mass emails that we get just by being as helpful as possible. So you don't wind up in the unsubscribe section and then combine and sync with Facebook which is great to go back out to those folks. On the emails themselves, how many are you sending on a day or week or things of that nature, and do you have any concerns about people opting out and do you make it easy enough for them to unsubscribe? Mike: Yeah. So we were sending millions of emails a month now literally; the number is actually crazy. We were just looking at our Klaviyo account the other day and it shows you the number of emails you've sent out. And in this particular account we're looking at it was actually just yesterday and it was 200,000 emails we had sent out and we were just like four days into the billing cycle. And I was like uh-oh like oh excuse me something might be wrong with … I think they were sending like … maybe people are getting two emails of the same thing or something. We kind of dug into it for a few minutes and realized just like the actual frequency, the number of emails we're sending is like in the millions a month now and it's actually accurate. And that's what we want to be happening it's just that we didn't quite have our … even have our heads around it. Joe: At the millions a month, how many is one individual getting? Mike: It really depends. It depends on how they came in to our system and what part of the sequences that they're in. There are some situations where someone might get an email from us literally every single day. So if they are coming in to one of this new lead magnet flows that we have which is basically I call this this the trifecta; this might be like a little bit of a version of what we're talking about today because we're talking about email but just as a real quick side note the trifecta to me as a marketer is getting them on a Facebook Messenger list, getting them Pixeled so I can also have their Pixel data, and getting their email address. So to me like- Joe: What's the Pixel part? Mike: So the Pixel part is just it when someone visits your website that's a piece of code that you have on your website that the Facebook Pixel or the Google Pixel and by having this script on your website you now know that someone has visited you and you know that they visit a particular pages or that they took particular actions. You don't know individually who they are like I don't know that Joe Valley visited my website today but I … you are in a bucket that I can say like I want to know all the people that did X, Y, and Z and you'll be in the bucket and I can then advertise to you in a particular way by being in that bucket. So what we do for Facebook campaigns or most of our campaigns is this whole … again the provide value first angle. So we'll offer people something for free whether it's free downloadable content, free drawings, a lead magnet whatever might be or offer them a free plus shipping off or maybe … so we start with these really compelling low friction offers and then send them to a Facebook Messenger flow. Which is basically are you definitely interested in this; yes or no. If they say yes we give them a link to a page and when they get to that page they're now Pixeled. So we have them on our Facebook Messenger list I can market to them that way. I have them Pixeled so I can remarket to them that way. And then that landing page will have a spot to give us their email address and I can market to them that way. And when they come through one of these flows for free downloads let's say we don't just give them all the free downloads in one day. We give them an email every single day for 30 to 45 days. It's actually a very long sequence where … so it's a 20 free download program or promotion I would say. And so we're giving them a download every other day and in between that we're giving them some other value. So and we tell them we're going to send you 20 free downloads, you're going to get one every other day. We don't tell them they are going to get another email every other day in between but they still open those as well. Joe: Yeah. Mike: And those other emails are still value, it's the how to blend or shade kind of emails or things like that, here are some stuff from our community and in it dispersed within there is here's a coupon for the book that you were just downloading these drawings from and things like that. So in that circumstance, their getting emailed incredibly frequently but the baseline minimum that people are getting email from our company is six times a month. That's the absolute minimum, someone, what would get. Joe: And that's fine. I've seen people … I've seen your presentation and I've heard people say man that's a lot of emails but if they don't want then they opt out. Mike: Yeah so- Joe: And your open rates- Mike: Exactly let me let me hit on that just real quick because it's a really important point. Again treating people like I'd like to be treated; I don't … if I don't want the email like I want to be able to number one at least [inaudible 00:22:39.8] easily unsubscribe so we make that easy for people. And I want them to be able to easily unsubscribe. What people … the shady email marketers don't get is you're actually hurting yourself more by trying to jam it down their throat because you want the open rates to be high. And Google and Hotmail and Yahoo all the different email platforms look at your stats of your open rates just like Google is looking at click to rates in inorganic search. And if your open rates are high, way higher than average; they're gonna say though this is content that people probably want we're going to put this in the main inbox. If you dip below a certain point you'll end up in the in the promotions tab, if you dip below even a certain point from that you'll end up in spam. And there's like no way to get yourself out of there. So we want to keep our open rates as high as possible probably for our own best interest right? So it's- Joe: Yeah. Mike: We make it easy to unsubscribe and if you don't open one of our emails for 13 weeks we unsubscribe you for yourself. So we figure after 13 weeks you know which is going to be probably something that range of 20 emails that we've sent out if you haven't opened one of those emails in that longer a time period you're probably just done with us and we'll just stop emailing you. And in that way … that's one of the reasons why our open rates continue to be as high as they are and we keep on adding our net gain every month is way higher than our unsubscribes or people we're removing. We've got something like 60,000 active emails on ColorIt where you know some people might look at that list and they would say it's 200,000 or something because we're not constantly scrubbing it. Our emails are active; these are 60,000 people that are actively open … we have 60,000 people that have opened at least one of our emails in the last quarter which is a much better stat in my mind than looking at the total number of people we've ever signed up. Joe: I totally agree. We're constantly asking that question in our client interviews and trying to drill down into the relative usefulness of those total emails. Yeah for those that are listening can you touch on, I mean it's probably overwhelming for both buyers and sellers that are listening in terms of if they've never done email marketing if they don't know how to do any Facebook marketing. I want to ask a question; let me first touch on the fact that for those that are not doing these now, for those that are getting revenue from one channel your business is going to be 20 to 30% less valuable than one from multiple channels and you also … and that's because of the risk. You're at a greater risk of a catastrophe if you're 100% Amazon business or 100% email marketing business, or 100% Facebook. You want to spread out and do all of them and have more sort of legs on the stool to balance out the business. Buyers will love that. They'll pay more for it. Mike: Yeah. Joe: And figure how to do it so what kind of training would you recommend for anybody looking to learn Klaviyo, anybody learning Facebook marketing? Mike: I mean we obviously do ourselves some I mean that's a kind of a loaded question but- Joe: It's funny, wasn't actually for people listening it wasn't a loaded question because I didn't know that. I know that you're doing … I know I've listened to EcomCrew you know I know Dave well, I know you well know and I love your Under the Hood sessions and I didn't really hear that you're actually doing the training sessions on Klaviyo and email marketing so let's … on Facebook so let's move to that. Let's talk- Mike: So we have a new thing called the EcomCrew Premium and what we were doing is like releasing a course every couple of months and charging 500 to 1,000 dollars per course depending on what the course was on. We did one on importing from China. Then we did another one on how to launch products on Amazon the white hat way without doing any black hat tactics. And as we kept on releasing courses we were getting emails of people just like this is getting expensive. It's like our core fans are like they're just buying everything we do, it was getting expensive and I also felt like starting to feel like a kind of a used car salesman in some respect because you're just constantly trying to sell them something different every couple of months. So we just said you know what like … because you know how Dave and I are like and we just we're not like that so- Joe: [inaudible 00:26:36.0] Mike: Well, thank you. Thank you very much. Joe: [inaudible 00:26:38.4] Mike: Okay well that makes more sense though he is Canadian so like by default he's just like already 40% nicer. Joe: It's it. Mike: Yes so we came up with this subscription model which is you just pay once a month, then you get access to everything that we've already done; everything that we're going to do in the future. And it includes webinars twice a month and the training we're about to release depending on this podcast will be released. The next one we're doing is on Facebook Messenger and we actually have a webinar later today as recording this on that topic as well. So we give those webinars to our EcomCrew Premium members as well. So we're constantly talking about this stuff and whatever's going on more current. The Klaviyo we don't actually have a course on yet I mean that was something that I learned on my own. I'm not really sure if there's one out there. We are going to be doing one on that but as a part of our subscription model, you also get access to us to ask questions so you can just email questions if you're having a hard time with Klaviyo as if for instance we would just help you with that as well. It's any type of e-commerce stuff we would help with. But Klaviyo is simple and it's complicated at the same time. Like I can understand why it would be overwhelming. I'm kind of a tech guy so I naturally kind of gravitate towards the stuff and figure it out. When I realize when it's complicated is when we hire a new employee and I had to explain to them how to do it and I see their eyes kind of glaze over. It's like I'm trying to explain the difference between a segment and a list or a flow and a campaign or how to synchronize something to Facebook and they're just like … you've been kind of giving that look and I … and then I understand that some things come harder to certain people. It'd be the same look I would give somebody if you asked me to do rock climbing or something. I'd be like yeah that's not going to happen. I'm not going to be able to do that. So yeah I don't know besides just Klaviyo's own website for that like what the best way to go about that is. Joe: So yeah you sell a very visual product you know with ColorIt and the tactical gear stuff you know common sense makes sense, between your connections with the EcomCrew and the Under the Hood Segments what's the strangest … I don't want to say, I don't want to call somebody's product or service strange but the thing that you would think would not necessarily work via email marketing that or Facebook that they get a shot and actually made a difference in their business. Mike: Yeah I mean let me start by saying give you like a whole another kind of answer to this real quick. What I always say when I when I speak at events or do these podcasts, whenever wherever I'm talking about and this comes up, one of the things that drives me crazy I mean you're in the same industry I'm in there is a lot of people out there that are like follow my secret 10 step plan, do these exact things and sprinkle this special dust in your business and you'll be a millionaire overnight. Those ads are on our Facebook feed like nonstop. We also go to events where some of these people speak and it drives me nuts. So I'm always cautious and tell people look like you have to use … you know your business better than anyone else and there's like all these variables that kind of go into it. You have a different margin than I might have or maybe there's a Facebook audience site that directly matches up with what you're doing. Maybe you have the ability to get user generated content really easily or you can make a lead magnet or a free plus shipping offer. If you have a lot of repeat business opportunity maybe you don't like I mean … so I try to talk about all these different types of businesses that we've been involved in and how we've approached it. And the thing that's cool about us now is we have four brands. We're doing things in coloring and hot and cold therapy we have a baby brand and we have a tactical brand. I'm gonna start talking a lot more about like our different approach for each brand but what your … the question you're asking is and I think that the answer to it really is that every business is unique. You have to follow maybe a basic outline of what people … like I'm doing with email marketing, here is like the different approaches we've taken with our different niches but you know it's hard to just say like do these exact 10 things. I mean there's a couple of things you want to do by default with email. You want to definitely have like an abandoned card sequence; that applies to everybody. You want to have a win back campaign; that applies to everybody. But what doesn't apply to everybody is 20 free downloadable coloring pages. That doesn't make sense for anybody else except for us. Joe: Right. Mike: Or like here's how to prepare for an emergency that probably doesn't apply to most businesses. You have to think out of the box and more importantly than anything is try a bunch of different concepts and don't be afraid to fail. This is where I think people get hung up like the human nature which I'm different in this regard for whatever reason. I'm wired differently. I just don't care about embarrassing myself or doing something that doesn't work. So you know I'll try 10 or 20 different things until I find the one that resonates and gives some traction where you know somebody else might try something once or twice and just give up. You have to keep on trying different concepts until you find the one that really seems to resonate and then with something in the world of Facebook when you find the thing that resonates or in email marketing it really seems to work. You'll get stats that are completely different than what you've done to that point. I mean 10 times better, 20 times better and you'll kind of hit that thing that kind of … that really works and I'm hoping that kind of answers the question. I mean I'm always reluctant to talk about other people's business specifically that we've run into at EcomCrew because I'm always pretty protective of the things that they're doing. Joe: Yeah. Mike: I never want to break anyone's confidence but I think that that is probably the best approach. And one last thing that I'll mention is when we got started in e-commerce with treadmill.com and I always talk about this. So it's like that's the most different thing that we've done compared to the other things that we're doing now. The approach there would be way different than selling something like a coloring book because you're only going to sell someone one treadmill. You've got no chance at a second sale. In fact, you just hope that they don't return it because it turns out to be like the most expensive clothes rack they ever bought right? Joe: Exactly. That's right. Mike: So I mean you have to take a different approach with that. And it's a much longer term sale cycle that you're not going to spontaneously sell somebody a 2,000 dollar treadmill. This is sort of like well long thought out, multi-year struggle with weight or whatever it might be that drives them to buying this treadmill, much different way to approach it so you've got to take a different approach there than selling somebody a sort of coloring pens or something. Because like yeah you can put an ad up, they're 30 bucks. Someone won't think twice about buying that and it can be a very spontaneous purchase versus the other way around. So you got the like … it's kind of like what you do, I mean people … like it's a very long sell cycle when you are trying to get someone to sell their business or purchase a business. That doesn't spontaneously just happen. So you're having to take a different approach with your email and your marketing than someone else that's actually selling widgets that are something that people just want to buy like that so- Joe: And it's interesting; it's the exact same approach you take in email marketing which is help as many people as you can. Be [inaudible 00:33:45.2] as you can and it generally is it's the right way to do it number one. But it generally works. You build relationships with either customers or clients like you sell from whatnot that they come around and work well. Mike: [inaudible 00:33:57.3] that works pretty well in life too by the way. Joe: That is [inaudible 00:34:00.6] life lessons from Mike Jackness. Mike: Yeah. Joe: We're running short on time but I want to talk about just EcomCrew briefly. I want people to now how to listen in because if you're in the e-commerce world you got to listen to Mike and Dave on EcomCrew because all they do is help people. Talk about that for just a minute; when did you start it, how do they download, listen to it, that kind of thing. Mike: We started it I guess it's been three years ago, three or four years ago. It's kind of hard to … I lose track of time. And we're out at Episode 150 something on the podcast as of recording this. My favorite episode we ever did was Episode 88 though, which was the Joe Valley EcomCrew podcast so- Joe: [inaudible 00:34:37.6] we talked today. Mike: I did. I just I was just looking on this great. But it's been a weekly podcast and we've now gone to twice a week. So twice a week we are talking about e-commerce stuff because between Dave and I we have plenty of things to talk about. We might even go to three times a week I just don't know if I have the time to do it. But as you're growing a business with the speed that we are there's plenty of talk about and I love talking about it because it produces a lot of cool stuff. I mean like I said it helps me meet people like you know but it also … it's really embarrassing to have to get on a podcast and start like you were … because I talk about my goals and the things that we're like looking to do. When you have to get on the podcast and say like I didn't get this done it's like there's nothing better than peer review and peer pressure. So I keep on pushing it till I get stuff done. So it's been very helpful for me as well. So yeah there's the podcast component so on iTunes E-C-O-M-C-R-E-W but we also have a blog which Dave does almost all of that content, EcomCrew.com all of that stuff is free. We even have actually a free … three free courses under the My Ecom Career Area none of that requires giving us a penny. It's just kind of us giving back. And you know I hope our long term strategy just like you is if we help people in they get an affinity towards the things that we're telling them and teaching that eventually they would want to become a premium member. But even if they don't like you were pretty financially secure and happy with what we're doing and all the other stuff is free. So definitely come check us out. Joe: It's awesome. Thanks Mike. I appreciate it. Anybody listening I would highly highly recommend you go to EcomCrew and check it out, download, listen to the podcast; definitely Episode number 88. Mike: Best episode ever. Joe: Ever. Mike: It actually was one of our best or highly rated episodes. And people are always interested in buying and selling their business. I mean it's something you should always be thinking about it's just I think people often wait too long to be thinking about these things and- Joe: Nine times out of 10. Mike: Yeah. Joe: Planning in advance should be probably number five. Mark doesn't like it but plan in advance you're going to understand the valuations and you do things like we talked about today which is [inaudible 00:36:41.1] email marketing and you'll [inaudible 00:36:43.6] business and get high value profit so [inaudible 00:36:46.6]. I appreciate your time today Mike I know you're a busy guy. Mike: No problem, thanks. Links: Ecomcrew.com EcomCrew Premium Episode 88 Klaviyo.com Klaviyo Facebook Snyc

In the last six years I (Joe) have only had two people tell me that Vendor Central is a great opportunity for Amazon sellers to grow their business. The first was at IRCE in Chicago in 2015 when an ex-Amazon Vendor Central executive told me his view of Vendor Central. The next time – was on this podcast. Both opinions were very favorable! And you know…I believe them both. If I owned an Amazon FBA business or was purchasing one, I would look very closely at Vendor Central and at least test it out with a SKU or two. That's right – you do not have to make the leap of faith with Vendor Central. At least not any more. According to our guest expert, Fahim Naim, Vendor Central is a viable option that most Seller Central sellers should consider. He openly states it is not for everyone, yet he took his first client from $4,000,000 in Q4 revenues to $16,000,000 by expanding the customer reach using the Vendor Central tools. Do I need to say more? Yes (apparently)…you do not need to be selling 4m per quarter to make Vendor Central work for you. Listen to Fahim's expert advice and make your own decision, it could be the best investment of time you have ever made. Episode Highlights: Hear firsthand how Fahim's Clients have done when engaging with Vendor Central. You don't have to make a “leap of faith” and leave Seller Central. If you haven't gotten an invite to Vendor Central – find your representative and contact them. Learn how to get more attention from a hugely overwhelmed Amazon representative. Vendor Central is not right for every product or seller. Some categories are more competitive and require higher volumes to be accepted to Vendor Central. Vendor Central is not just for brands…distributors can use it as well. “Seller Central” on steroids…that is what Vendor Central is. Links: www.eshopportunity.com LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/fahimnaim/ 10 Tips When Considering Vendor Central Transcription: Mark: Joe how are you? Joe: I'm doing great Mark. How are you, sir? Mark: Good, good I heard you explored the depths of the mysterious Vendor Central recently? Joe: Yeah. Listen, the good, the bad, the great Amazon sellers that we know…that we've talked to over the last decade for the vast majority they all say no way don't lose control to Vendor Central, don't do it, don't do it. When you when I went to IRCE in Chicago in 2015 I talked to somebody that was an ex-Amazon Vendor Central manager, he's the first person that ever told me that it was great and that he could double somebodies business using vendor Central and I believed him. We never reconnected afterwards; this guest today is the second one. His name is Fahim Naim, he's from…originally he was an Amazon Category Manager and he left and went and started his own company called ‎eShopportunity. And he gave me one example and this is a huge one so don't get scared away if you're doing $50,000 a month in revenue listeners. His first client he took and quadrupled the revenue in Q4 alone by using Vendor Central Tools. So he took it from 4 million dollars a quarter to 16 million by using Vendor Central. Mark: Oh wow, a huge growth. Joe: So that alone is reason enough to listen. And as firsthand information from somebody that's actually done it, and seen it, and uses it services and he's quite honest and open about it. It's not for everyone and it's not take a leap of faith and you no longer run Seller Central anymore. It used to be that way and I think that's why people feared it. He's got some great ideas on how to take just one skew and test it out and slowly move over and things of that nature. I'll make a whole lot of sense if I were a seller, if I were a buyer, I would very very closely at Seller Central. Mark: Fantastic. Well, I can't wait to get into this before we get into the episode though I'm going to make a public plea to the listeners out there. I want to know what conferences you guys go to because we like to go to conferences. We'd like to meet you so send me an e-mail at mark@quietlightbrokerage.com with your favorite conferences to go to throughout the year and I know that's completely unrelated to what we were just talking about but you mentioned the IRCE and it just sort of triggered that. All right with that, I'm actually anxious to hear this because like you I've heard the same sort of feedback from most Amazon Sellers. They're saying no way, I don't want to do it but it's really hard to ignore quadrupling revenues by jumping over there so let's get into the episode and hear what he has to say. Joe: Hey folks it's Joe with Quiet Light Brokerage and today I've got Fahim Naim with me on the call today. How are you Fahim? Fahim: Wonderful how about yourself? Joe: I'm doing good man. Welcome to Quiet Light Podcast. Listen, you've got a ton of experience from being at Amazon as a Category Manager and now running eShopportunity I was going to try to do the intro and talk about you a little bit but I just want to make sure it's done right. So if you could brag about yourself a little bit, tell everybody that's listening about your experience in e-commerce world, then Amazon, and now at eShopportunity that. Fahim: Wonderful. I was previously a Category Manager at Amazon, managed one of largest category at Amazon retail, managed a team of vendor managers, and one of the categories in Consumer Electronics, super sexy stuff like computer components and portfolios and things that are going to computers; very exhilarating as you can tell. Joe: That's exciting, yes. Fahim: All jokes aside it was tons of fun, it was over a half billion dollar business, they booked to double the size of my category while I was at Amazon even though the market was flat. Had a fantastic time but ultimately made the decision to leave and start my own venture. I started eShopportunity about a few years back, we wanted to help companies grow and be on the other side of the table of some of those conversations that happened at Amazon. Started off with one initial brand, hard time, we grew his Q4 business from four million dollars to 17 million dollars that year eventhough he's been set in declining he was excited, introduced me to a couple of other brands, I started tailing the team and I guess fast forward about three years we've worked with over a hundred brands to date. Some fortune 500 brands, some brands we've seen a shark tank, a bunch of startups and companies in between. Either brands that had been on Amazon for a while but really wanted to take it to the next level. Brands that have had successful businesses off of Amazon and finally wanted to launch on Amazon or a [inaudible 0:05:06.5] of the type. Joe: That's an impressive resume. You took somebody from four million to 17 million and he was only excited? I would think it'd be ecstatic. Fahim: He was probably more excited when we went on the phone. I think he did a good job keeping his poker face that I'd imagine based out of his expectations when we started he threw a pie in the sky number saying if you help me go to twenty million this quarter that would be beyond real and I was pretty angry that we fell just short of it. So my take is probably a little bit different than his. I was hoping that we could get to 20 and again his Q4 business the previous year was maybe…it was about flat to where he was that year so it was a…he had some phenomenal growth and the good news is that after I checked in whenever the project concluded the business had continued to grow. So I think a lot of Amazon is how do you start the right foundation, how do you get the things clicking, and then organically if you're doing the right things and you [inaudible 0:06:07.9] screwing up which is probably easier said than done you see that your business continues to scale which is obviously great for the business owner's standpoint. Joe: Right. Now you mentioned you manage a team of vendors and Mark and I talked in the intro about Vendor Central, you and I are here to talk today mostly about Vendor Central and your expertise in that area and why some people should start paying attention to it. As I told you I don't think I've talked to a single Amazon seller that has a seller account whether they're doing fifty thousand a month or a million or two or three or four million dollars a month in revenue, they all say there's no way I'm giving up control to Vendor Central, absolutely not and there's a huge paranoia about it. The only time I've ever heard that is a good thing is from you and from someone else that I met at IRCE in 2015. Tell us if you will with the basics what's the difference between Seller Central and Vendor Central and then let's get in to the details of Vendor Central and who's a good candidate for it and how you can help somebody grow their business by using it or how anybody that chooses to use it can use the cheat sheet that you and I have talked about that we're going to share in the notes and to go ahead and do it themselves if they want to go that route, the difference between the two as well. Fahim: Well first off, Vendor Central is often treated as a red-headed stepchild, people not very optimistic based off of what they've heard in the seller communities especially. I'm in the forums, at speaker conferences, I do a fair amount of publishing and I've similarly heard a couple of things. One is I think that's a misinformation that hopefully we will dispel at least a certain degree in just doing this podcast and some of it is probably warranted. I think the decision between Seller Central and Vendor Central depends so much on the specific details of that brand that anybody who says hands down this platform is better than that platform is probably doing you a disservice in that Seller Central certainly has some benefits, Vendor Central has some benefits. Back to the matter as most of the largest brands or the businesses that are doing the most amount of volume on Amazon all have Vendor Central. It seems to be working for people that are growing very quickly and have larger business. Yes there's probably some bias on it that a lot of those are large companies anyways and are Fortune 500 brands that sell across the board but I can't tell you the number of times we've taken a brand and got their business from a let's say a couple of hundred thousand, two or three hundred thousand dollars on Seller Central per month and got that business grow up three or four X when they made the transition to Vendor Central when all things align. Things don't always align and again we delve with the details and we'd get to that but there is certainly an opportunity. If you want to scale your business and become a five, 10, 15, 20 million dollar brand on Amazon and more, Vendor Central offers you a set of tools that are much tougher to get to than Seller Central or possibly not even available to Seller Central. So to answer your question more specifically, Seller Central you do have more control, direct control of the pricing and inventory. Seller Central they're starting to open up some of the things that used to be available just to vendors, things like A+ Content like me deals, catch deals. headline search, so certainly this becomes this a little more parity to come into the seller part [inaudible 0:09:29.8] but when you sell your products directly to Amazon Wholesale, a couple of things, one is it's not you sell it to Amazon and then take care of the rest of it. It's very similar to Seller Central in that you get a tool kit that you can use to grow your business but it's not Amazon's going to optimize your pages, Amazon's gonna run all these ads for you, Amazon's gonna give you higher search results and check out what the right pricing is for you and run promotions by themselves etcetera. Vendor Central is very similar to Seller Central in that it's how much you put in to it and you have access to tools in Vendor Central in many cases that you may not have access to on Seller Central. For example, let's talk about deals, lightning deals on Seller Central are recommended only and even that just we can't go build on the last year to; at the Vendor, you can submit a proposal. It doesn't mean it will always get approved but you can submit and be a lot more proactive on lightning deal on Vendor Central. There is something called Best Deals which most people on Seller Central don't have access to unless you have an account manager that's idea that you show up on Today's Deals Page which is the most popular page on Amazon after the homepage. And you can run a deal for up to two to even four weeks but they with less aggressive discount at the Lightning Deal. In many cases, Best Deals has been phenomenal for [inaudible 0:10:47.8] that's another option. Coupons just became available to Seller Central until a couple of months ago that had been a popular program that many vendors have utilized for a long time. Subscribe and Save Again started on Vendor Central before it became available on Seller Central. Programs like Amazon Prime Now, Amazon Fresh, Prime Pantry are primarily not exclusively focused on Vendor facing brands so that's another example. If you want to be on the homepage of the furniture page on Amazon to be…go to navigations click on Amazon Furniture Amazon Computers Components and Peripherals and there's a lot of people that search for products that way, most of those placements are available for vendors only. If you want to be on Gift Guide and Amazon has done a great job over the last couple of years holding some excitement over this idea of having a holiday gift guide we can browse through products. Because Amazon obviously has been a great place to shop if you know what you want, it hasn't been ideal if you want to browse for things and Amazon has [inaudible 0:11:46.8] most if not all the brands in many of the gift guides or vendor. So again there is a unique set of tools that vendors have of or have access to. That set is certainly not all rosy; things get a lot more complicated. You have a little bit less direct control on inventory, you get a weekly purchase sorted that Amazon cuts every week and that's the amount that you can send tens and more. You could send less although that's probably not a good idea unless you don't have inventory- [crosstalk] Joe: So you…holding on right there in terms of that inventory because as I know as people are listening to us they've probably written down twenty questions there hoping I asked. Let's just talk about that inventory for a minute. So many Amazon Seller Central folks send money to inventory directly from their manufacturer to Amazon, in this case do Vendor Central folks have to have a 3PL where they store the inventory in between and ship on a regular basis? Fahim: That's what most people do. There are some variants where you can get around that. Amazon and on the Vendor Central site has a direct import program where you can import all of your inventory likely from Asia directly to Amazon. Not the easiest thing to work with setup to be transcribed but certainly exists and I know some brands that have done well with that. I think the vast majority of brands on Vendor Central either have their own 3PL or use a separate 3PL to fulfill those orders. And in some cases, you could do a little bit of both. You can have some inventory and multiple warehouses and you get PO's from different warehouses and you have to send it to different places. So there is some level of flexibility although it tends to get a lot more complicated on how this passes works in Seller Central. Seller Central, I want to send 500 units I go on create a shipment, it will tell me what [inaudible 0:13:33.3] I want to use, I even have the option in inventory placement service dependent to just [inaudible 0:13:37.8] and I'm done. And then Amazon manages all the interactive shipments, Vendor Central doesn't- Joe: [inaudible 0:13:43.2] for [inaudible 0:13:44.0] center right? Fahim: Correct. On the Vendor Central- Joe: [inaudible 0:13:47.2] Fahim: Yes, no that's good. Stop me because I live in acronym words so if you will- Joe: Okay. Fahim: It's good to get clarity. On Vendor Central when you get a weekly Purchase Order or PO they can have you send it to eight or nine [inaudible 0:14:03.0] but sometimes less, sometimes more. So the process again works all over differently, for some brand that's not a big deal and for some brands that's probably a little bit more complex and they want to be…especially early on in the lifecycle of the business. Joe: Okay, so you just used the word brands this is in assumption maybe everybody already knows this or is thinking this that Vendor Central is really for brands, not resellers simple? Fahim: Yes or no, I think primarily most of the brand…most of the companies that are on their own brands. There are a good number of distributors that also have Vendor Central accounts. Some of the largest, most of the large distributors or many of the large distributors have Vendor Central accounts and they supply directly at Amazon. And even if you are a brand meaning manufacturer and you sell to Amazon, if Amazon consorts your product cheaper to a distributor they'll buy from the distributor in many cases. And that sometimes business pisses off brands but yes you…it could be either in the context of a lot of things I'm talking about I'm probably talking more down the brand manufacturer route but you, to answer your question you could be a distributor and have a Vendor Central account and you could be the company that's been selling Purchase Orders from a variety of different brands or distributor. I know some distributors that are doing 10, 20, 30 different vendors, different selling inventories for 10, 20, 30 different vendors- Joe: Okay. Fahim: That are not exactly their brand. Joe: Well the fear that I think a lot of the brand owners have that I speak with is that they lose control and going back to that you mentioned it they don't lose control. They still have control, they can…can they write their copy? Can they work on their keywords? Can they send organic traffic to it? Can they…and then do all of those discounts and promotions you talked about as well is it essentially Seller Central on steroids where they've just got access to more things? Fahim: I like that. I like the Seller Central on steroids, I'm [inaudible 0:15:58.2]. Yes, it's…I would argue, you probably have more control on Vendor Central than Seller Central. [inaudible 0:16:04.0] common that very often even if you're a brand registered on Seller Central, I hear it all the time brands say somebody changed my copy, somebody changed my picture, somebody changed my variation, even if you are the brand owner and you're on Seller Central there's a brand hierarchy in terms of who owns [inaudible 0:16:20.9] page edits and at the top of the list is vendors. So anybody who has an Amazon Vendor Central account has ultimate [inaudible 0:16:28.4] goes on. Even if you are the brand owner and you have a Seller Central account and you have brand registry but the distributor is selling that to Amazon and they have a vendor account, they actually have ownership over that page copy. In most cases over the brand that's on Seller Central. So I'd say you can change titles, you can change bullets, you can update images, it actually works much easier on Vendor Central than Seller Central. At Seller Central sometimes doing things like variations could be fairly complex with Vendor Central it could be as easy as a ticket and somebody would do it for you. Images similarly the turnaround time of Vendor Central is pretty good but ultimately up to you have at least as much control probably more control over your page copy, and content, and landing on Vendor Central than Seller Central. Joe: And then all of the other things that Seller Central folks do whether it's striving outside traffic, keyword optimization, discounts, reviews, YouTube social media reviewers that are talking about and driving traffic to that Amazon page they can do the same thing it's just an Amazon vendor page correct? Fahim: Correct. You can do all that and to the average customer, they can't tell the difference of a vendor and reseller. Joe: Okay. Fahim: Most people don't even realize it so yes it works the same way. You can send X number of traffic, you can run discounts, you can run promotions, all of the same- Joe: Okay. Fahim: As both cases the same way at Seller Central. Joe: Is…I mean we've got people that you know if they're doing a million dollars a month and running a lifestyle business meaning they've got some VA's and they work from home part time they don't want to really risk very much. There's no sense in going I'm going to just lose that million a month and I'm going to jump into Vendor Central. Tell us about if they're doing Seller Central what the leap is from Seller Central to Vendor Central? So they have to shut down the Seller account and then open Vendor or can they have both running simultaneously, is it a one way street? Talk to us from that perspective as if you were that guy running a lifestyle business making a million dollars in revenue on a monthly basis. Fahim: A couple of things, if I were running a lifestyle business and I was happy at my current run rate and didn't want to…if I was more risk averse I'd potentially keep it as is. If I wanted to grow that business and take it to next level I think Vendor Central becomes a lot more interesting. Joe: What's the risk part in terms of Vendor versus Seller? You said risk- Fahim: Well you know- Joe: More riskier? Fahim: Yeah if you're risk averse you already know what to expect, you know how to manage everything as the current process that takes on Seller Central. When you transition to Vendor things change. Typically for the better if everything aligns. But the way pricing works changes, the way pricing should work certainly changes, the way inventory fulfillment work changes etcetera, etcetera. At the end of the day once you get on boarded and in most cases not all cases but in most cases you do a good job in negotiating with your inventory manager which we'll talk about a couple seconds but imagine on your terms and you are not paying that net much more on Vendor Central than Seller Central I think there's a little bit less [inaudible 0:19:35.3]. If you are going into a category where your net margin expectations from Amazon is severely higher on Vendor Central than Seller Central there could be some risk that at the same amount of volume Amazon is taking a bigger cut of that. So I think there are some nuances but I think the risk is the unknown and it's a new process and you have to manage that. Joe: And do you have to shut down your Seller account or to open the Vendor Central obviously that it's not you lose days or weeks of revenue, I would assume that its very seamless. Fahm: It's semi-seamless. Amazon has changed their stance on this on the last couple of years. A couple of years ago it [inaudible 0:20:14.6] have both a Vendor and Seller Central account. And in many categories now and the Vendor Manager technically has the ability to shut down your Seller Central account if they want to. If you were doing anything to really damage your Vendor Central business, there's officially a clause that says if you sale wholesale and you have a Vendor account that they can shut down your Seller Central account. I actually haven't seen that happen although I've seen some threats but that exists for a couple of good reasons. In the last couple of years, Vendor Managers and teams at Amazon have been a lot more open to the idea of having both but being strategic about it. The idea is the Vendor Manager owns the retail or what they would call the retail part of the [inaudible 0:20:54.5] and Seller Central is almost a competitor to that Vendor Manager. And they do that to keep more competition on the platform so better for that costumer at the end of the day. So the Vendor Manager doesn't get a lot of benefit when you have a Seller Central account. If you're competing on the same skew and you have lower prices on your Seller Central it actually hurts this plus on the metrics, they're out of stock, their loss by box, a bunch of their metrics or sales are going to be a lot lower here. What many brands do today, they do which…a little bit more strategically with is I'm gonna have both the Vendor and the Seller Central account, I'm going to do some skews on Vendor Central to start. I'm gonna keep some skews on Seller Central to start and see how that process goes. Depending on how close that brand is with the Vendor Manager that person may push to get more and more of the catalog from Seller Central to Vendor Central. But think of it as like you're negotiating with a buyer at Walmart, or Best Buy, or Target, there is a lot of negotiation that goes back and forth. So maybe you decide that it's not a good idea to transition your entire catalog or maybe things are going so well and you want to everything overnight. I think that's where it's a very personal decision. For many brands the way they started, they open a Vendor Central account, get a couple of skews on Vendor Central, get used to the process and things work a little differently. One thing we should mention is pricing because a lot of people worry and I hear this misconception a lot that Amazon will lower your prices and you lose control of it. It's not really true, and what Amazon's pricing and there's certain things that I'm allowed to say and not allowed to say. Ultimately, Amazon [inaudible 0:22:23.6] in a game of let's proactively lower your price so we can sell more inventory and create a price war in the market. That's not Amazon's idea, that's actually what a ton of other retailers do and I can tell you firsthand many of the big box retailers like to put things on the go back and promotion and discount pricing. On Amazon Vendor Central if you have control over your pricing in the market, so externally and third party wise there's nobody undercutting your price, you have a lot more control on the pricing than many people think. Joe: And most of the cases I think the people listening to this podcast, they own their brand and they do not sell it to distributors so it's not going to be an issue. They're the sole person or company selling that brand so- Fahim: Yup. Joe: They're going to get their wholesale price from Amazon anyway. It doesn't really matter if the Amazon decides to sell it for two dollars above they're still going to get their wholesale price from Amazon correct? Fahim: Yes but it's a dangerous way to look at it because let's do an example. Let's say you're selling the gross sales price of [inaudible 0:23:24.6] but the price the customer pays is 20$ and I'm just making up some numbers. The price that you sell it to Amazon is 16$ net of all cost and whatnot. If you then have somebody selling your product on third party or let's say externally at Target. You have a small assortment that Target decides to lower that to 18$ or let's call it 17$, Amazon will match this 17$ likely and in your mind, you may say you know it doesn't matter Amazon paid me- Joe: [inaudible 0:23:55.9] they're not gonna buy any from you again obviously it has to be profitable. Fahim: Exactly. Joe: Yeah what I was referring to is that most of the people I think listening to this podcast are not selling to Target and Walmart retail big boxes display. I really like the idea for I just want to repeat it that you don't have to take a leap of faith from Seller Central to Vendor Central. You pick a couple of skews and you test Vendor Central with that. And you talked about negotiating with Vendor Central, do you actually get to talk to a live person and have that one person as your contracted contact, your trackling? For those that are not watching this on YouTube he smiled and he looked up to the left going oh my God could I tell you some stories I think, don't but is it a human that you get to talk to or is it email? Fahim: It depends, like with everything else it depends. There is a human that lives behind the desk that ultimately manages that and the team that manages that. It depends on if you're able to get a hold of that person. So sometimes the Vendor Manager is a lot more proactive especially for brands that have a larger business whether on Seller Central or externally and the Vendor Manager or somebody on that team reaches out and you have that direct line of contact. Sometimes people find the Vendor Manager Buyer on LinkedIn then and they start a relationship [inaudible 0:25:18.6]. That way sometimes a leverage, consultants and agents and people like myself, I get a hold of the buyer and broker a meeting and start some of those conversations, and many times the invite comes from a separate team. We get on boarded to Vendor Central and your business is not large enough in the eyes of the buyers [inaudible 0:25:38.1] you get a whole lot of time and attention. And you're often told to use Vendor Central's tools and file tickets to get answers so it does depend on the brand some of the brands that we work with…some of the larger brands or brands that more potential has better chances of getting some of that one on one relationships with the buyers. And some brands especially when they're earlier on their business isn't fully at scale form an Amazon perspective. They're often told to use Vendor Central, file tickets and try to leverage from the automated processes that exist. So it's possible but- Joe: Let's talk about that then. Two points, number one I want to hear your top negotiating tactic with vendor Central that you want to share with people today. Number two, maybe start with number two, size wise when…how big does a brand have to be in terms of let's just say that I'm going to peel off a couple of skews again what kind of revenue does that have to be producing in Seller Central to make a difference to the point when I can actually negotiate your top negotiating tactic? So if somebody is doing 50,000 $ a month is that enough, if they're doing 25 is that enough, do they need to be doing a hundred, what's the number? Fahim: It differs so widely by category as you can imagine. I'd say generally a lot of times I put the benchmark growth sales you want to be doing over a million dollars a year that will probably get the attention of the Vendor Manager. Again, it differs; if you're in a category, a huge consumer electronics category that number may need to be five million annual gross sales, if you're in a growing category, if you're in help and personal care, if you're in grocery, if you're in passion that number may end up being even lower than one million dollars. But I would say if you're doing less than a couple hundred thousand dollars annually on Amazon it's probably a lot of low hanging fruit to scale your business from Seller Central initially. If you're already doing north of a million plus dollars annually on Amazon then it depends on your category, it depends on your ranking and how big you are as a portion of that catalog but certainly the bigger your business the higher the likelier that you're gonna get the ear and the attention of that Vendor Manager. If you're doing some 10 million dollars annually in almost any category the Vendor Manager should not always does but should want to convert your business. Figure out how they can scale your business and they have tools again that you wouldn't have in the [inaudible 0:28:09.7]. So they really could if they wanted to help you grow that 10 million dollar business to be 15 or 20 million fairly quickly. Which is doing that on Seller Central is certainly possible but it's almost like you have one hand behind your back because you don't have access to the same set of tools. Joe: All right tell me about the negotiating tactics you and I have talked about. You're gonna create a little cheat sheet it's in the notes for people to download in terms of top negotiating tactics with Vendor Central. Can you give me one or two that we can share with folks? And I know it's going to be…it's going to depend upon the category and all that but throw something out. Fahim: Yeah, take them to dinner create a- Joe: Take them to dinner? Fahim: Yup take them to dinner or when you go to Amazon [inaudible 0:28:50.3] you want to create a relationship with that person and treat it like you are sitting from their side what do you want to hear. So it's less complaining and demanding it's more this is what I've been able to do so far I know you have the tools to help me really grow this business, I want my brand to be a big part of your business- Joe: You're not gonna say what I tell every buyer which is just be likeable. The more likable you are the more people are going to work with you is that? I mean this is part of the secret [inaudible 0:29:17.6] likeable? Fahim: I think that's certainly some part of it. I mean I think in the context of the conversation put yourself in their shoes again and why should they…this person literally has thousands of brands that technically fall under them. Why should they spend some time trying to invest in you? And being likeable certainly a part of it explaining why your brand has a big opportunity. Whether that's your growth rate on Amazon, whether that's things that you've done off of Amazon, whether that's new products that are coming on, whether that's quest and things that you've been able to capture externally, make them care. The more they care about it and certainly it helps if you likeable, although that's not always the case, the more that person is gonna want to invest in it. This person literally has to make a…there's not enough hours in the day for the Vendor Manager to keep everybody happy. And I know now being on both sides of the table how difficult that job can be and it can be very frustrating from a brand's perspective. But every day as a Vendor Manager you have to pick who are the 95% of people I'm going to piss off by not answering them by giving them the time of the day. Just because they have so many things going on and by creating a relationship, by understanding what they need, by taking care of the easy things yourself and not bothering them with things that you can complete by yourself by filing tickets on Vendor Central you're certainly gonna increase the chance that that person is going to invest in you. If they feel like their time on the phone with you, or in meetings, or doing annual planning meeting from Seattle, or meeting at trade show is valuable and they're actually helping you grow the business they're going to want to invest more. If most of the time you're talking to them it's about I filed this ticket and it's not working, or can you help me with this bank account issue, or I can't figure out why this [inaudible 0:31:06.8] of a thing is not working that person's again going to be stretched up and the answer is probably going to be file a ticket, reach out to somebody on Vendor Central anyway. So I think the more you can keep the picture on the long term and understand there's going to be some bumps along the road the better the chances that that buyer is going to want to invest in this relationship. So nothing, no silver bullet except for be likable, think about long term, think about it from that person's perspective. Joe: Got it, geographically where are you located? Fahim: In San Francisco and I spend my time in Texas as well. But between San Francisco and Texas. Joe: And the vendors, the Vendor Central Managers are they all up in Seattle, are they located around the country, where are they? Fahim: For the most part, most of the Vendor Managers are in Seattle yup. Joe: Okay and if someone wants to learn the basics of Vendor Central to make sure that they're understanding it as much as they can, is vendor Central on Amazon.com? The best resource and knowledge base to learn the basics out there or is there another resource that you'd suggest? Fahim: Vendor, so there's certainly less and this is a little bit frustrating I think for brands, there's less information about Vendor Central than there is for Seller Central externally, there is lot of tutorials, there's a lot of training, there's a lot of information, there's Seller Central's forums etcetera that exists for Seller Central and not a lot for Vendor Central. There is a lot of information on Vendor Central if you get an invite. The help section has tons and tons of guides probably not [inaudible 0:32:33.5] to go through all the different guides. So it's a little bit [inaudible 0:32:36.0] by fire. I would certainly spend a little bit more time on the operations and figuring out how inventory management works and if you want EDI support and what that looks like and managing that part of the process early on and getting a feel for it. There are some pretty good documents on Vendor Central again but they're pretty long and exhausting. So I think you have to scour Vendor Central support, talk to other brands that are on Vendor Central potentially, pop in to the Vendor Manager and kind of just learn by doing. The good news is that you- Joe: Sounds like there's a [inaudible 0:33:11.0] in the making here. Somebody should be creating [inaudible 0:33:13.7] and teaching Vendor Central. Fahim: Yup. Joe: And you and I get a royalty for that right? Now it's just an idea. Fahim: I like the idea. Joe: It's just an idea. Now, okay this is just a theory but I want to hear what you would say and this is really not just for sellers but it's for buyers of Amazon businesses. We're running short on time so I'm gonna just say I'm launching a listing this is all theory quote unquote for air quotes for those not watching, it's going out next week, the brand has been around for about three years growing quite rapidly, there's 12 skews and 60 variations doing about 1.3 million dollars in revenue in the trailing 12 months and there is a design patent on the product as well; Seller Central only. I'm going to come to you or I'm going to try to figure out Vendor Central myself. It's in a category of well I can't really say what it's in but it's not in a massive category with tons and tons competition. It's just something that you'd look at me if we were having a beer right now you'd say, Joe, you're nuts not to look at Vendor Central. Fahim: Potentially I think you could I mean within your interest to evaluate it. So maybe you're nuts if you're not thinking about it and evaluate it. Not necessarily that it's the right decision but you need to start doing your homework to figure out if it is. And the interesting thing is it may not be right now, it may be next year or maybe six months from now. But I think if you'd simply wrote it off and say it's too complicated I don't want to do it then I'll tell you're nuts. If you said I looked at it here's the pros here's the cons, ultimately Seller Central makes a lot more sense then I think you're doing exactly what you should do. Joe: What's the first step in evaluating it? Fahim: Getting the invite. So Vendor Express used to exist and fortunately that platform is retiring in this month. It was the idea that you can sign up…anybody can sign up to be a vendor on Amazon through this Vendor Express platform and you get a lot of the same tools, not everything, but a lot of the same tools with Vendor Central. Vendor Central is an invite only platform so you need to get invite from somebody at Amazon. Whether that's your category manager or there's a selection team or somebody who lives within that retail team. So it's tough to get a lot of information until you actually get that invite because when it comes down to look to your total margin, and what is this going to look like, what's your payment terms, you don't get that information until you get the invite. So I'll tell you the first step is starting to figure out who your Vendor Manager is and starting to have some conversation. Before that I think you could probably do some level of research and see other brands in your category; how many of them are vendors, how many of them are sellers. If you are continuously being ranked in the top 20 but never in the top 10 for your category look at…you should be looking at who those top 20 are on a regular basis, what are the brands, what are the skews, what are they doing that you're not doing. And if you find that 80% of them seem to be vendors and they have access to much better A+ content than you have and videos and they're all over holiday gift guides and you see them all over Today's Deal page, and they're getting Deals of the Day, and they're on Amazon Prime or Fresh and what not then I'd certainly be keeping that at mind. If you look at the list and say nobody's doing any of that everybody has the same tools as me, maybe you come out and say I'm not getting hurt or maybe you'd say there is an opportunity just for the go. So I get…prior to getting the invite and having a conversation certainly wanting to understand what you're dynamics are. I've seen categories like luxury beauty for example, where the vast majority of brands [inaudible 0:36:40.0] are vendors. And again it's because of a variety of different tools that they have access to that are not on the Sellers Central side. So in that category if you're a brand that wanted to do north of a million or two million dollars a year I would probably very heavily consider Vendor Central and start looking into the process of figuring out who the buyer is and what can I offer and how do I get a hold of them and what would this look like for example. So I think unfortunately there's not a whole lot of prep and information out there on exactly what your margins and your…would be ahead of time and some of those other details and how much inventory they're going to order or anything like that until you actually get the invite so just the first process is research, second process is find out who the Vendor Manager is, where you could get an invite off. Joe: Yeah if you can find out who your Vendor Manager is through LinkedIn or however you might be able to strike up communications and get that invite if need be. This may be a simple question but how do I look at Amazon and find a competitor and tell if they're Seller Central or Vendor Central, is there an obvious way? Fahim: So if you're going through a listing and you look under the price there's three different options that you'll see one of them for ships from and sold by Amazon.com, one of them will say sold by ABC and fulfilled by Amazon.com, and the third one will say ships from and sold by ABC.com. Joe: Gotcha. Fahim: The third one which says ships from and sold is a seller who is also doing their own fulfillment, most cases are not Prime eligible unless they're [inaudible 0:38:09.8] prime. The second option when it says sold by ABC.com and fulfilled by Amazon means they're a seller that's [inaudible 0:38:17.7]. And the first one that says ships from and sold by Amazon.com means that Amazon is buying that. In most cases that means that brand has a Vendor Central account but again there could be a case where the brand actually doesn't sell to Amazon but a distributor does. But either way that is what they would call retail or Vendor Inventory is a ships from and sold by Amazon.com. And a final tidbit is there's been a lot of research done that shows that it differs by category but customers have more [inaudible 0:38:49.4] when it that ships from and sold by Amazon.com and conversion could be significantly higher even than an FBA listing. Certainly, both a retail and FBA listing would have higher conversion than something that's not Prime eligible than something that's not SFP but in some categories I've heard the conversion could be 30-50% higher, all else equal for something that's been shipped from and sold by Amazon.com. Not all customers understand the difference but people are becoming a little more savvy and if you're on the fence and you say I've never heard of this brand but if Amazon is buying it it's a little bit easier. But [inaudible 0:39:23.7] work a little bit easier because the brand doesn't even need to get involved. I can just reach out to Amazon Customer Service, sometimes that's the difference [inaudible 0:39:30.9] when somebody is making a difference. Joe: I hadn't even thought of that conversion rate on things 30, 40% percent maybe that's just even if you divide by four and you get a 10% bump. That's a pretty big bump for a lot of people that are listening today. Well, listen Fahim you've been great, we're running out of time I know you're gonna put together a cheat sheet for negotiating with the Vendor Central, maybe you can throw in some links there for any place that people can learn about Vendor Central. You'll share some details about eShopportunity as well and how do people find you if they are listening to this now and are driving down the street and they don't want to go to the notes. How do they find you right now? Fahim: Probably the easiest way is going on eShopportunity.com and there's a contact us form. I also do go to a bunch of conferences so oftentimes I meet and talk to brands there. I'll be at IRCE, I'm the Chairman of the Amazon conference for this year so I'll be around all day so if anybody would love to have a conversation in person that's certainly possible as well. Joe: Fantastic. Man, you've been great I appreciate it. You've cleared up a lot of things I think a lot of people are gonna ask a lot more questions and hopefully look at Vendor Central more realistically both sellers of businesses and those that are investing in them to help take it to the next level. Appreciate your time, thank you so much. Fahim: Absolutely. Thanks, Joe, wonderful time. Thank you. Joe: Talk to you soon. Thanks for listening to another episode of the Quiet Light Podcast for more resources from this episode head over to quietlightbrokerage.com. If you're enjoying the show please leave a rating and review in iTunes, this helps share the messages from the show with more business owners like you.    

If you've ever wanted to sell or purchase a SaaS business, listen to this Podcast because Nathan Singh has done both. He sold his own SaaS business in early 2017, only to turn around and buy a bigger SaaS business in December of the same year. He's a former NASA Scientist who out-negotiated a full price, all cash buyer to win the deal and close on a multi-million dollar SaaS website. In this interview Nathan shares how he approached his listing review, initial seller conference call, due diligence, navigating the SBA process and the transition after the sale. Nathan also shares why he feels SaaS businesses are the right fit for him, and what other types of website business models he looked at during his search. Episode Highlights: Learn how to make a buyer love you – and want to sell to only you. Interviews should be conversational, friendly and flow naturally. Nathan shares his SaaS due diligence process for this business. Seller was meticulous using Asana and Dropbox with SOPs and a streamlined process. How to navigate the SBA process and the team he worked with. What was it like to take over a remote team that was loyal to the owner. How he took over the business, worked for three weeks and then went on a three week vacation. SaaS Businesses produce recurring revenue without product working capital. Seller worked part-time and Nathan is planning full-time to expand and growth the business. Nathan purchased this SaaS business with an SBA Loan. Tax returns matching the P&L is great, but not always the case for solopreneurs. Keeping the sale confidential is critical until the APA is singed. https://youtu.be/yj_XkpWdRKs Transcription Mark: Hey Joe, how are you doing? Joe: Doing great today, how are you doing today Mark? Mark: I'm still under the weather. Joe: I had somebody tell me at the prosper show recently that they obviously enjoyed the podcast they came out to pay this compliment, but that he could tell we were in different parts of the country. I'm not sure how, I said “Did you watch” he said “No, I listened”. And he knows that we're in different parts of the country. So where are you in the world just so people understand? Mark: How in the world did he know that? Joe: I don't know. It's your funny accent I think. Mark: I'm up from Minnesota, although people think that Minnesotans have an accent, we do, but especially up north. Not as much in the city. I'm in the Twin Cities the Saint Paul side. If anybody's ever coming to the twin cities just drop me a wine and be happy to get together. Where are you? Joe: I'm just northern shell at North Carolina out in Morris zone North Carolina, and the more people I talk to, there's lots of sellers around here, lots of buyers around here and I've connected to just quite a few so anybody in this area, reach out. Mark: I thought down in North Carolina you guys supposed to have a bit of a twang accent, aren't you? Joe: No, not from here. [inaudible 0:01:47] from here. Everybody moves here because they're too darn cold up north. I grew up in Maine. We fled to the south back in 2006. Mark: Ah, ah. Whoever that was that knew we were in different parts of the country, I want to know how. That's pretty good. Joe: Not only did he know that, he came up to me to thank you and me personally for doing the Podcast, number one, and doing it with Norm Ferrar on SOP's because he got to connect with Norm, and it helped take his business to the next level, and he said it has made a huge difference in his business and his life. Mark: That's fantastic! Joe: Yeah! It's a feel good moment at that time. Mark: We got to be careful; our heads are going to get really big. Joe: I know, I know. Let's talk about somebody who doesn't have a big head but should, because he's a really impressive guy. That's Nathan Singh. He bought a multi-million dollar SaaS site for a million. He has also been a client. We sold his SaaS businesses before. You remember Nathan well, right? Mark: Absolutely! Joe: Well, Nathan is one of the nicest guys, very humble. Former NASA scientist, NASA engineer, and turned entrepreneur. We worked together first on the sale of his business last spring, and then he purchased a multi-million dollar SaaS site I've closed in the fourth quarter. And in review, we're sharing on this Podcast a lot of the things that he did right to make a great impression on the buyer, to out-negotiate all cash buyers to work with the SBA and lender to literally, quote, Nathan is one of my favorite clients of all times from the SBA lender, and the under writer as well. He instilled confidence in everyone all along the way that made him the choice to be the buyer that they approved him overlooking at other buyers as well, and he has just done a great job. Getting the business sold and then he talks a little bit about what he has done since purchasing the business including going on a three week vacation within three weeks of buying a multi-million SaaS business. Mark: Wow that's pretty brave! I don't think I could've done that. Joe: He had it planned, he took it and things went well, and they continue to go well. Mark: That's really good. So I'm excited to listen to Nathan. Nathan is generally, one of the nicest guys I've dealt with in 10 years, and I've dealt with a lot of nice people but he rises at the top of the list of one of the nicest guys. I'm excited to see him in the video, because I don't think I've ever met him in person. Also, more importantly, listen to what he has to say. Mark: Let's go to it! Joe: Hey Nathan welcome to Quiet Light Podcast! How are you today? Nathan: I'm doing well, thanks for having me. Joe: Excellent man! We haven't chatted for a while. I know you've been traveling so welcome back. Listen, we've talked about this briefly but the tradition on the Quiet Light Podcast is that we don't read scripts and do flowing introductions of our guests. We'd rather hear it straight from you so, for the folks that are listening today, can you share some background on yourself as an entrepreneur and where you come from? Nathan: Yes sure. So, before I was even an entrepreneur, I started off doing software engineering, and mostly high level stuff on requirements and project management. Work on department of defense for a couple of years and then moved on to their space operation. So while I was there, I really got the bug, for trying to start my own business that we knew we have an idea what I was going to do, but I just happen to run across somebody who was selling an app and basically started his app and it was a screenwriting program called Scripts Pro, brew that out for a couple of years and then it got acquired, and I was like “I want to do this again” so it just rings and repeat. After that I had an online ordering platform called Order Zen and had the same with that. At that time was actually easy to broker. So I brew that out till what I can do, and then we got that acquired, of course with a seller for that one. Pretty much after that, we became very tight, and I monitored your listings specifically, very closely, and then we came across the listing for Envira Gallery and that's kind of have [inaudible 0:05:57] Basically, that's pretty much the background that I had since industry extinct and that's why I [inaudible 0:06:02] it over to this senior entrepreneur acquisitions have been online businesses. Joe: I think you sort of lightly flew, touched over the fact that you were a NASA scientist. I mean, come on, that's a glowing thing to have in your resume. Let's not make that too light. It's an interesting transition from a scientist working at NASA to becoming an entrepreneur. I guess once you get the bugs, you will get the bugging, and you can't stop. So that's great. So I want to talk a little bit about the process that we went through, and you in particular, went through in buying Syed's business. Syed was a guest on the Podcast as well, as you know. In terms of how it works for you and what we looked at, can you, for the people that are out there looking at businesses and building portfolios of online businesses, can you talk a little bit about your vetting process and how you went about it? Then we'll jump into how you handled the call of Syed and the whole process right through the closing. Nathan: Yeah, absolutely. So the good thing, I mean I had some pretty good time between the time that I sold my last business and the time that I was working. So I got pretty acquainted to what was in the market, multiples they were going for, and the kind of business that sell out. So predominantly I was looking at SaaS businesses. I've been it in before. I love the fact that it was recurring revenue, there's no product I had to deal with, so I really zero in on that as my primary, well, it's more left open to great businesses that had good year over year return, and Syed just sort of filled all those checkmarks. They had great in over a year return, it was growing. In his case there was kind of a lower owner involvement which is great because that allows me to come in at full time and really push at the growth. So those were some of the main key characteristics. But one of the biggest ones, I know that you're familiar with this one. First question I'll ask you is, “Joe, is this taxable?” and I wanted to make sure that was it, because I wanted to leverage my money as much as possible. It may not be for everybody but we certainly list, so I've been trying to pursue SBA business and the loans for a while, [inaudible 0:08:04] And as you know that's not been easy for the last, however many years. But I would say within the last year too, I've seen more qualified banks and qualified SBA folks come in and be able to really take that sort of thing with ecommerce businesses and SaaS businesses, know what they're talking about, and present it to their credit department, and make it happen, and I actually solve with Stephen Speer, he's not even a competitor, he's a guest as well. Joe: That's right Stephen Speer from BankUnited, for those that haven't heard the Podcast, he was a guest. Very informative, as far as lenders go, I'd say Stephen is top notch, the best, and he's an entrepreneur, sort of, himself. Yes he's a lender with BankUnited but he works from home often, more often than not, and lives our lifestyle which is really unique, and he understands ecommerce and so he is underwriter, really important. So for those not familiar with the SBA, it's Small Business Administration. If you're buying a two million dollar business for instance, you don't have to have two million dollars. You can have 200,000 dollars and really leverage your money. But note, is Austin a ten year note which obviously works very well in terms of these online businesses. Let's jump to the first call that you had with Syed. Nathan, can you talk about your objective was on that first conference call would start? Nathan: Yeah, so the objective is pretty much similar as with most sellers, you try to get a feel for the seller and knowing the business with its seller personally. You're going to be working pretty close to this guy or girl. So, the main thing is, I want to understand what Syed does day to day, what is his outlook for the business, you know, kind of that more, the regular things that you'll for even if you're buying a house, and how the thing was maintained. So with Syed, it was really, we talked about this before. He knew early on that I was a gator so that kind of help me knock a little bit there too. Joe: What do you mean gator? What does that… Nathan: For the gator, so quarter gator not [inaudible 0:10:11] it's seminal, it's two different things.. Joe: Did you see the Podcast by the way? Nathan: I heard the Podcast with Syed. Joe: I put the hat on and I have a gator said hold up… There it is right there folks.. Nathan: But yeah, it was really bad to understand, you know, kind of gains and knots in the businesses. I was a buyer, one of the specific things you're looking for is, is there anything I'm missing that wasn't in the perspectives, in terms of, what is the seller doing that if I remove him from this equation, will I still be able to do this? Because that taught something that you will rarely see at perspectives and even on conversation. You're kind of feeling out for that but at the main time, at the main thing, what I would advise, anybody that's listening that's looking to buy a business, because I've been doing this for a while, in terms of talking to sellers, and back and forth, and I've been selling my own business. You don't want this to be a stringent interview where you're just running through all these questions, you want to be very conversational and let it flow. I've gotten a lot of good results by doing things that way. I think that was the main thing, is that we kept it friendly and conversational instead of, “I'm trying to figure out why you're selling this because I don't trust you.” It was just a totally different approach. Joe: I can tell you that, with the conversation that you had with Syed, he has told me that on that call he wasn't looking forward to it being over. He enjoyed the conversation and the things that you had in common like the gators, but more along the line of taking care of the customers, and taking care of your people or your staff first, and he really enjoyed it. Where some of the other conversations that other seller have, they can't wait until it's over. I had that experience with one of the people that called me when I had my business for sale back in 2010. He was rude, he was abrasive, and I did all I could to stay on the line and be polite, and just wanted the call to be over. Even if he made me a full press offer I would have a hard time selling him the business. So that makes a huge difference, I think when you ended the call with Syed, his thought was, “Man I really hope Nathan makes an offer, loves to do business with him, and the people that are using my services and products, and the staff that I have in place, will really enjoy working with Nathan and thrives with him as the leader of the business.” Is that kind of what you were shooting for or it's just natural that you did that? Nathan: You know I think it's a little bit of both, I've sold being on the opposite side and being on Syed's then while I was selling my business, I've come across different buyers and newer party's conversations, when you just talk to them, you're like, this is not the right fit. Even if this guy came with a complete cash offer or whatever it could be, this may not be the right fit. With Syed, I kind of guessing here, I think he was sort of looking, not so much about the deal or the money but he was looking for a right fit because he was worried about his folks that were, i mean these are all permanent employees with no contract, there's really in this business, five of them, and so he really cared about them and he really cared about the customers. A lot of it came from me just doing things that were customer centered, I've always run companies like that, I've run teams that way, and I just sort of mentioned that, I was like, I don't know who else your other buyers are, but this is the way I do things, so I don't know if that fits within your battle, it just happen to be that way, and then I heard later on that these were his core values, and those are my core values, and we just sort of mesh over that. Joe: Yeah, it was exciting factor in choosing you over the, technically, two other buyers. Let's talk about, jump forward to your due diligence process, what was your goal in due diligence, how did you approach it, and how long did it take? Nathan: You know, it's funny. I've done more due diligence in past businesses that was much smaller. I'll sort of elaborate it on line. So the initial due diligence I've coarsely didn't know, returns on profit and loss versus statements and all that good stuff, what you're supposed to do. I did not do as deep with due diligence solely because of the talks that me and Syed did have, and just the reputation that Syed had. So his influence in the WordPress community, he has got a lot on the line. So I didn't really have to worry about him ripping you of and stuff like that. He was really worried about, they going to the right buyers, versus me worrying I've got the wrong seller and the wrong product and… Joe: But you still verified that financials that was to make sure… Nathan: Yeah, the basic stuff was all done but I didn't lose any sleep worrying if it's something was going to happen because, again, there's still background that you've parked over this. When you see that the tax returns are completely reflective with the P&L that got submitted and the perspectives, that right there gives me the warm fuzzy I need as I go forward. I don't have to kick and [inaudible 0:15:00] as much, trying to figure out where am I getting ripped off. You're going more with the mindset, okay the basis is there and everything else should just work flow and it did. But that was the main stuff, it's just making sure that everything wind up with ways that it was. Joe: You only note on the tax returns, for those buyers and sellers listening, Syed had a business partner, so often time with partners, the tax returns and the P&L's are very very clean. When you are a solo entrepreneur, your more things, personal things with the business, it can get a little bit messier. The SBA looks at the tax returns, first and foremost, they'll use the P&L's if it's halfway through the year, and three quarters went through the year, thanks for that nature. But the tax returns are first and foremost, and what they do, their valuations off of. So don't be completely afraid if you're a solo entrepreneur, that you cannot sell a business, then have it be, financed with an SBA loan because you absolutely can. With the lenders that we've worked with, they understand the add tax schedules and the personal benefits that anyone takes, and so do the underwriters within the group that we work with there. So, you didn't worry too much about the due diligence process, naturally, you verified the financials, you had several calls with Syed, and you went through the process with the SBA. Let's jump to that for just a moment, what was it like going through the SBA process and what did you had to do? Nathan: Yeah, the fun thing is that I had actually been through this process with previous businesses before, and so I've actually gone to that fun part of the business. We just had issues and pulled out. I was familiar going in. So first of all, kudos to Stephen, kudos to you, and kudos to Syed for just being an awesome team for making it all happen. That's probably why we had them work speedy close than what's usually expected. But you know, aside from that, I think having everything ready to go, I mean, Stephen was good about that, and pretty much gave me more or less the stuff that I needed in terms of, “These are things on the checklist, you should probably have this done because from my experience I know that it's more of that likely go through”. That helps, because a lot of times, there's always [inaudible 0:17:17] going on, a lot of times the buyer takes a long time to get stuff back. So we didn't really have that issue here. But you know, again, it really mattered. I've worked with SBA bankers before, and it really matters on who it is that you're dealing with. With Stephen's case, he just had everything down. He's done ecommerce, he's done SaaS businesses, there is no “Well how does this work or where is the? So tell me where the hard assets are in the business?” There was none of that. So that kind of straight lined the process really well for all of us. But I think just having that stuff done upfront, that's what helped us get really done at speedy line. Joe: You said that Stephen and myself and the underwriters all worked very well together and Syed and so on and so forth. I happen to have dinner with Stephen and the underwriter that worked on your business, they were both in Charlotte a couple of weeks ago, and they both talked about you being one of their favorite buyers. So for anybody listening, this stuff matters, Nathan brought a business, would that note to the seller, when somebody else made and all cash offer. The seller chose Nathan over that all cash offer at the same purchase price, because he liked Nathan and what he stood for. The SBA lender and the underwriter, both said that Nathan was one of their favorite buyers of all time which makes process easier. They're going to work harder for you when they like you. It's human nature, so really really important to understand that aspect of it. Let's jump now on to closing, training, and transition, and what's taking place since then. I think we closed just before Christmas. By the way it was probably from letter of intent to closing about 50 days which is fairly short for an SBA loan, and we had a full week of thanksgiving in there, so call it 45ish. What's transpired since you close, how was it going, what was training and transition like and so on and so forth? Nathan: Yeah, again, comparing it to the past businesses I've had and worked with the past sellers, it's been night and day. The great thing is that because of the level of business, you know that will add the seven figures, because Syed runs seven and eight figure business above, he's very meticulous. So the first thing he did was setup, you know when they found a project in a drop box to view list. With all other things that his team needed to do for me, everything I needed in there. So that made it a lot more extreme ride then. Again if you're selling your business and you're getting to that point, make sure you have something like that in place, because that's the other warm fuzz and that lets you know that “Okay it's stuff I'm not thinking about as a buyer, the seller informed about for me” and we kind of running through those checklist. So, you know, I would say the transition went pretty smooth, I mean not really that he cuts.. You know, I talked to the CTO, I talked to the CFO, we all had these one on one's where we talked about what they did, so I made sure that I knew exactly what each person role is because I was taking over a couple of people's roles… Joe: How did they feel by the way, the staff, with you coming in and taking over Syed's role? Were they excited? Were they scared? What was that like to tell them that news? Nathan: You know, I think that initially they were, like most transitions, they were maybe a little one sided, just because, there was a lot of grey areas up until the actual deal was inked. So they were a little one sided, they were a little confused about what was going to happen now, they are getting the impression at something else or did I keep the same things they've had. So from my end, it just took a little bit of, getting them all on, talking to them face to face and letting them know, “Listen, everything stays the same, I've liked the way that Syed have done business, I've planned to keep those same things in place, let me know if there's something you're customed to and that is done because those things have all been accounted for” and so I wanted to do it and make sure I went above and beyond what they were expecting what happened after this transition and just kind of talk them down on the fears of what naturally happens when there's a transition even in corporate out and serious stuff. We're good to go now and that's what kind of passed that. Joe: While we kept it confidential, we didn't want to let the staff know that the business was even for sale, until everything was finalized, inked, and really truly going through. That's something all sellers struggle with, when to tell the core people. In my case, when I sold mine, I think I waited until the asset purchase agreement was signed, because she was valuable to me and I wanted her to stick around for me and for the new owner of the business. So that's what we did here, and I know that Syed said you did a great job instilling confidence in the staff and making them feel comfortable. One of the attractive things about this business is it was one of many businesses for Syed so he wasn't working full time on it. How was the workload then for you, taking over the business? Are you working full time early on or you're finding yourself with more than full time? You're working less? What's that situation like? Nathan: Yes, I'll say initially, at first two weeks, just like any transitions, it was pretty much full time. But I had a pre-planned vacation that's about three weeks long, that I have to go to India. So for me, that was a big deal to make sure that I would be able to leave and just do the minor stuff in the background and have some question, to get things while I'm abroad. Joe: So just, you bought the business, we closed, and then you had two and a half weeks of being around and then you went to India for three weeks? Nathan: Correct. Yeah. Joe: And everything still ran smoothly. Nathan: And everything is still smooth. I mean, that was mentioned to me early on and that was again, that was a really attractive factor to know that. You know, I think you've mentioned that you could move and go to the Far East and come back. That's kind of what I did. So, it was good to come back and see that everything was still in place, that the team was, the team was phenomenal, that Syed did assemble. Each individual player plays a major part in what they do, and for that reason they're also very turnkey. That's a turnkey business, turnkey team. So, that's why when I saw where am I inserting myself, it was kind of learning the role to what's already being done. How can I improve, how can I make things better for them, and be the leadership that Syed has been able to provide and do his other businesses. Joe: Okay, so where do you see your workload now? You were working really busy, after just a couple of weeks you went away for three weeks… Nathan: I would say that corporate atmosphere, it's like still checking at 8:00 to 9:00, I'm out by 5:00 – 5:30 and I'm told, you know, the employees do the same thing. Let's not make this a full 12 or 14 hour a day, and I want to balance that, that work-like balance too. Because I came from that kind of environment and I know it pays good. I usually work the eight or seven hours, sometimes nine whatever it needed. Rather than that, at a certain time before my wife comes home or whatever, I'm usually done, closed out, and I'm trying not to think about it. Joe: Well, what are you working on? Syed didn't work in about a few hours a week on the business and now you're working 30-40. Are you fixing broken things or are you working on to projects and growth opportunities? Nathan: Now the great thing is he built a solid foundation so what I'm really doing is I'm working on the stuff that he wasn't able to do, which is the marketing advertising taking that further gain, the PPC's setup, optimizing on the SEO getting the right content writers in to put that detailed information that we really liked, that's been attracting the other folks and traffic. So it's been really centered around the business development, the marketing and advertising stuff, which has really been done, because again, he's got great and recurring revenue, we've got a great organic traffic through Google, so from that right now, it's the going above and beyond the PPC stuff. The stuff that he didn't have to give and didn't really have to focus on because the business is really self-sustained. Joe: Right, so you want to grow the business, you didn't buy it and just collect a check every month, you're trying to grow it so you're putting in more hours. Nathan: Aside from just the business development, it's also providing that the one on one with these folks. I mean again, these are not contracted. These are folks that have certain benefits and they've liked that type of attention and focus from a leadership. So that's what I'm enable to do, I'm enable to gear about the product road map, provide my input to that where we want to go, instead of just kind of them doing whatever, it's done and just see that the money reach the bank, it's not really that. Joe: As far as much, one thing we haven't touched on is where they work from. You've got five employees, are they all working from an office or they're all remote? Nathan: They are all remote, they have been doing that for many years, so again, I tried to focus and know what side has all of you been doing, since Syed has 40 plus employees, they've been doing this for years, and I think Syed began and has been doing it for 14 to 15 years. So I liked that idea, and I liked the fact that they're able to do this with milestones. I don't know, there's no… You know a lot of times, I would just set a meeting yesterday, but some other guy, they own a company here in Houston, and they were like, how do you keep track? I was like, I don't. There's a lot of trust involved, and there's milestones that are set, and as long as these milestones are being set, I don't care where they're working that 40 hours. Joe: What's your favorite software? What system are you using to communicate and track what they do and work with them? Are you using Slack or what are you focused on? For people that are running remote staff that are having trouble with it, what would you recommend? Nathan: Yeah for Slack it's been awesome. I'm pretty new to Slack, I used Skype on my last business. Slack is way better than that so I highly recommend that. We use Zoom, we do a lot of this, the face to face meetings. I think that matters a lot with the remote staff, was getting at Facetime, and again, letting them know you're just not an employee behind the computer that's just in another state. We're talking to each other, we're going to do once or twice a year meet ups. So we do team building activities, that's super important too. Yeah I would say that Slack, the Zoom, and also Asana. Those things are big key to really help with the project management and the milestones we've set, and Github as well for the developers. Joe: Okay, awesome. Alright Nathan because we're running out of time, how do you see the future of the business? What are you looking over that 12, 24, 36 months? You're going to hold to stay, you grow at 10%, you're going to grow 50%, what are you predicting? Nathan: Yeah, you know, I hate to throw a prediction at it right now, I'm happy if we're over the double digits, anywhere in the double digits will do triple digits in over a year growth, I'm a happy, happy camper. I think when possible again, got a great business, great team in place, and there's nothing but upsides so, I'm looking forward to it. Joe: We'll going to have to check in, in the future and see how it turned out. You have any last minute thoughts for multipliers and sellers? You've been in both shoes, you sold, you offer your services, business, you bought one, any last minute thoughts in terms of what they should do or focus on? Nathan: Yeah, I would say the huge takeaway from this and for me has been, you know, when you're doing these buyer and seller conversations, no matter what side you're on, keep it conversational. It's great to have your question beside, but don't run through it like a machine gun and keep it just robotic and mechanical. Because there's a huge human element here involved and this was a prime example that actually happened. Joe: That's great. Nathan, pleasure doing business with you twice now, I'm looking forward to hearing some great news, great success, with Envira Gallery and so on and so forth. I hope that really works out and maybe we can check in, in the future and do another Podcast update and let the folks know how you've been succeeding. Nathan: Yeah, I would love to. Joe: Awesome man, thanks for your time today. Nathan: Awesome, talk to you later Joe. Links: Nathan Singh – LinkedIn GitHub Stephen Speer @ Bank United for SBA Loans Asana – Making Teams Work

Tracklist : -C.J. Lewis : R to the A (1995) -Brooke Russell feat. Mr. Gentleman : So sweet (remix) (1999) -Destiny’s Child : Independent women (Part II) (Pasadena remix) (1999) -Mary J. Blige : Everything (1997) -Ginuwine : I‘m feelin’ you (1997) -D’Angelo : Lady (1995) -Joe : What if a woman (2001) -Musiq Soulchild feat. Aaries : Forthenight (2003) -Macy Gray : I try (1999) -Sisqo feat. Beanie Sigel : Unleash the dragon (2000) -Mya : Case of the ex (Whatcha gonna do) (2000) -Angie Stone : Brotha (2001) -Zhané : Request line (1997) -Toni Braxton : Un-break my break (1996)

Analyse the following debate and identify how well the debate unfolds — are there any fallacies involved, and what are they? Letty: Spiritual beliefs are irrelevant when it comes to philosophy. You can’t observe Santa Claus, and you can’t run a test for faith. I’ve never heard of a reasonable hypothesis test for faith, as it has to be investigated and evaluated. Philosophy is about testing and evaluating, so beliefs are not a part of philosophy. You either do Philosophy or you do navel gazing faith nonsense. Joe: Why not? I’m happy to debate the ethics of believing in Santa Claus! Just because faith isn’t the same as science doesn’t mean we cannot observe certain things about it. You don’t have to use sight to observe. Therefore, using rational reflection is a method of observation. Letty: But measuring a concept isn’t the same as measuring a real thing — an observation in terms of concept isn’t the same as that which is truly real in the world. For those reasons, scientific method applied to faith is just a mistake. If you start thinking faith and other unreasonable things are Philosophy, you’ll start thinking ghosts and fairytales are Philosophy and we might as well put Plato in the fiction section. Joe: What about the social sciences? It’s a combination of methods, not just science, to investigate different parts, changes and the sources of change. Philosophy is often found in the social science departments of universities. I therefore don’t see how investigating concepts such as faith, something outside of empirical testing, can’t be a part of philosophy. 

Is dating a celebrity different than dating a normal Joe? What if both of you are in the public eye? Are the rules the same? Find out on this episode of Single Smart Female plus the different types of men that women commonly overlook.   LISTEN HERE:   BONUS: OPEN UP YOUR OPTIONS IN GREAT […] The post 44 Are The Rules Different When You Date Someone In The Public Eye – Dating Advice With Single Smart Female appeared first on Have Him Your Way with Jenn Burton.

Is Jerry in love with Joe? What is Seeking Arrangements? Who is Breadface? These and many other questions answered on this week’s Lady Bits with special guest, Aria Marra!

Jewels talks about shifting into your wealth frequency as Dr. Joe (What the Bleep Do We Know) talks about the Power of the Mind to heal itself. Great Show!

  It's family visit time! Probst seemed intent on wringing every last bit of emotion out of this one, and we got closure for several story lines that were set up back at the beginning of the season for Jeremy, Spencer, and Joe. The most significant moment for this episode will surely be the end to a big story arc with Joey Amazing finally pushing himself to the limit and coming up short. No doubt, there were many sad Survivor fans tonight. What did you think about this family visit? Did it hit you harder than in previous seasons? What did you think of the decision to get rid of Joe? What are the chances that Kimmi's plan for an all women's alliance might happen? Which would be better for Tasha? Who do you think will end up being the swing vote: Keith or Tasha? Who do you think will be next to go? Here is the merged tribe after episode 12. OrKun :Abi, Jeremy, Keith, Kimmi, KWent, Spencer, and Tasha We've got several ways you can reach us. You can call and leave a voicemail at 206-350-1547. You can record an audio comment and attach it or just type up a quick text message and send it to us via email at joannandstacyshow@gmail.com. Listener Feedback is due by Saturday Noon PST. Please keep it to 3 minutes or less. 00:00 Date 00:04 Ancient Voices 31 Cambodia mix by Aaron from Granville 00:36 Introductions 40:31 NToS 43:06 JSFL Update 50:40 Ancient Voices 31 Cambodia mix by Aaron from Granville Links for Today's Show Paul's Visual Roster for Survivor Cambodia Second Chance Survivor Fans Podcast Fans group on Facebook JSFL SFP on Twitter Contact Info: Voicemail: 206-350-1547 Email: joannandstacyshow@gmail.com Survivor Fans Podcast P.O. Box 2811 Orangevale, CA 95662 Enjoy, Jo Ann and Stacy

Joe De Sena - CEO and co-founder of the Spartan Race and author of Spartan Up!: A Take-No-Prisoners Guide to Overcoming Obstacles and Achieving Peak Performance in Life. Joe is a legend in endurance and adventure racing.  He completed the 135-mile Badwater Ultra-marathon, raced the 140.6 miles of Lake Placid Ironman, and finished a 100-mile trail run in Vermont....all within one week! This week we learn about grit, determination, and the absolute need to live life to the fullest. "The thing that frustrates me the most is the fact that 99% of people are just sleepwalking through life. They are living in a bubble wrapped existence." - Joe De Sena Quotes from Joe: What we learn in this episode: What's it like to grow up in the organized crime capital of the world? Is it possible to learn to be more resilient? How do you get out of your comfort zone? What are some things you could do today to truly experience life? How to build obstacle immunity. Resources: Spartan Up!: A Take-No-Prisoners Guide to Overcoming Obstacles and Achieving Peak Performance in Life http://spartanupthebook.com/ http://www.spartanrace.com/ Twitter: @spartanrace This episode is brought to you by: Opportuniteas: Opportuniteas evolved with the mission to be better. They only use ingredients with proven benefits. They show you the research and list the exact dose of everything because you deserve to know! For 10% off your first purchase, go to opportuniteas.com and use promo code smartpeople.