Podcasts about michael there

Patrick celebrates the heroic act of a young boy defending his sister with a slingshot and discusses current moral and societal issues like gun control and immigration. He highlights the wonder of the Ignatius Study Bible and its impact on faith. Plus, hear from callers sharing their thoughts and questions, and explore the solace found in sacred music through the Relevant Radio app. Syl (X) - You applauded the young boy who shot the would-be attacker who thwarted the kidnapping of his little sister. How is this different from the father who's trying to save his family from the Nazis knocking at their door and wanting to take them away? (00:31) Bobby – The Ignatius Bible you recommended is easy to read and it has great footnotes. (06:02) Addison - Do you think that Nazi twitter comment was related to immigration? (10:43) Statement of Bishop Burbidge on President Trump’s In Vitro Fertilization Executive Order (15:22) Health and Human Services releases a statement confirming human life begins at conception Michael - There was a movie called Spencer's Mountain with Henry Fonda that inspired The Walton’s (22:53) Maximillian (email) - What President Trump is doing regarding IVF isn't worth us getting all upset about (24:40) Liz – My book study in church mentions God's name in vain. (29:38) Julie - I really love the Sacred music app on Relevant Radio! Can I use it during Confession? (44:19) Mary – The priest at my parish has 1st assignment that keeps his eyes closed and head down while lay people are doing the readings.

As business owners, we often feel imposter syndrome or worry about our status. Have you ever wanted to elevate your image and be more relevant? In this episode of the #DoorGrowShow, property management growth expert Jason Hull sits down with Michael Sartain, CEO of Men of Action Mentoring to talk about how to make high-status friends and attend VIP events. You'll Learn [03:27] How to Utilize Networking [19:03] Becoming High-Status Using Social Media [26:54] How to be Relevant [38:58] Social Media is Fake [53:21] Authenticity vs Effective Content Tweetables “You need to be the person who always solves problems for other people and ask for nothing in return.” “You're building a brand. Status is status.” “A lot of our beliefs that we're holding on to that are holding us back.” “You make millions of dollars from solving other people's problems, not by doing what you love.” Resources DoorGrow and Scale Mastermind DoorGrow Academy DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive TalkRoute Referral Link Transcript [00:00:00] Michael: Your ability to grow is based on your perceived status, your perceived trustworthiness, your perceived know how. Not your actual know how.  [00:00:11] Jason: Welcome DoorGrow property managers to the DoorGrow show. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives, and you are interested in growing a business and life, and you're open to doing things a bit differently, then you are a DoorGrow property manager. [00:00:30] DoorGrow property managers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges, and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you're crazy for doing it. You think they're crazy for not because you realize that property management is the ultimate high trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management business owners and their businesses. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. I'm your host, property management growth expert, Jason Hull, the founder and CEO of DoorGrow. [00:01:10] Now let's get into the show.  [00:01:13] So I have an awesome guest today. I actually joined his program just for kicks. This is Michael Sartain. Michael, welcome to the DoorGrow show.  [00:01:22] Michael: Hey, what's going on, man? Hey, I gotta be honest with you. Two years ago, I didn't know what doors meant and then I started hanging out with Justin Waller and he's like, "yeah, man, I have 300 doors." [00:01:29] I was like, "bro, what are you talking about?" [00:01:31] And then he's like, now he's got 400 doors. And I was like, "oh, it's like all these different properties." And then my buddy Myron he's got 17 homes that he owns up in Connecticut. He told me about, and I didn't understand how this whole thing worked. And then the property management side of it, like "my company, we're like, we're buying properties because we want to use the depreciation. And we need someone to keep, you know, these places rented, blah, blah, blah." And then the property management, I don't know that much about it. So that's why I was really excited to come on here and check this out.  [00:01:57] Jason: Cool. Well, yeah. And I didn't know very much about like maintaining a presence. [00:02:03] Looking cool, like actually looking cool on social media instead of just trying to look cool. And and so I've learned some good things by being in your program. So let's get into a little bit of background about you for those that are like, who's this Michael guy? And maybe how you kind of got into entrepreneurism and I think that'd be relevant to anybody listening. [00:02:25] Michael: So I'm originally from East Dallas. I grew up on the good side of the tracks and went to high school on the bad side of the tracks. And graduated from my high school, barely like did anything. It was not a very good experience. And I got into UT Austin because I was in top 10 percent of my class. [00:02:39] Went there four years, studied astronomy and business and then got out of there. And then I ended up managing a nightclub for a while, for a couple of years because MCI Worldcom and Enron had gone out of business. So if you know, UT Austin, Enron was like a huge supply of jobs once you graduated you know, as a Longhorn. [00:02:56] Once they go out of business, none of us can find jobs. I ended up working at a strip club for like several years as a DJ. And this is the first point in my life where I'm like, "okay, there's something going on here. There's things that I've been taught growing up, but there's something different now." Of course, I want to preface this. [00:03:10] By no means am I saying that people who go to a strip club or people who work in a strip club are indicative of the median of society. They clearly aren't, clearly are not. What I am saying though is that you can see the extremes in society when you go to places like that and from those extremes, you can see overt reactions. [00:03:27] One of the things that I do in my course is I teach how people can network, get invited where the cool kids sit like that phenomenon of where the cool guys are and the not cool guys, the hot club versus the not club that the club people don't want to go to, or the party everyone's trying to get into. [00:03:42] What is it that causes that phenomenon of popularity and status? There has to be something that can explain it. And so what I've been trying to do for the last 15 years is use evolutionary studies in order to figure out a way in order to do that. And so a lot of times when you do that, you know, you can see subcommunication between a man and a woman and you don't really know what's going on. [00:04:02] They have the internal focus of what's going on, but when you see it in like a nightclub or a festival or someplace like that, you see very overt communication. And from that, you can learn a lot of cool stuff. It's like watching, you know, crows you know, pick at a carcass versus watching a giant white tiger go kill a gazelle. [00:04:18] Like that is overt examples of predation that you can see and be like, okay, this is how biology works. This is how natural selection works, et cetera. And I know for your audience, you're like, "where the fuck's he going with all this?" Yeah. The reason why, just to explain. I got fascinated. I did seven years in the military after 9 -11. [00:04:33] I joined and I flew a KC 135 as an instructor navigator. And then I was I did counterintelligence for about the last two years I was there. And then, so, in that time period, I learned how a very structured business could work and like how accountability works. Accountability and leadership, I learned very much during that time period. [00:04:49] But at that same time period, I was also going out a lot and I was like very interested to me in like, what is it that caused certain men to be phenomenally good with women and get a lot of people to show up to an event and then what caused other men to just not get it. And I always, I also noticed that there was a very small group of men that got it. [00:05:05] And then a very large group of men that didn't understand this concept whatsoever. So I became fascinated with that idea of 2011. I ended up retiring from the military and I ended up moving to Las Vegas and this is the first time when I started going out to some of these nightclubs and these venues here in Las Vegas. [00:05:19] And I meet a lot of real estate agents. I meet a lot of accountants. I meet plastic surgeons, doctors. And it was very clear to me like that some of them got it and some of them didn't get it. I threw a real estate event recently where we took a blue heron home. And then we had a charity event for animals. [00:05:33] And while we're there, I invited every single female influencer in the city to show up. Well, these, some of these girls were interested in getting into real estate, but I just want you to imagine it was just like a regular real estate event that you have, except you're doing it for animal rescue. [00:05:47] So now all these people who are in real estate, mortgage brokers, et cetera, property managers like yourself, they would show up to this beautiful three story house. It was catered. It was beautiful. And then every pretty girl in the city in Las Vegas who wasn't working that night showed up to this thing. [00:06:01] So now you're drinking champagne. There's three times as many girls as guys. Some of you guys are listening to this and you're like, "okay, now I understand. I'm starting to understand what he does." You're able to create these incredible environments and in doing so, just imagine, everyone... I try to teach networking through events. [00:06:17] That's basically how I try to teach networking through small events at your house or large events, you know, like a CES conference. I try to teach networking through those mechanisms. And then I try to show how evolution created humans throughout history. Dr. David Buss writes in his book the evolution of desire throughout history. [00:06:34] The men who have worked in groups and in tandem with one another always had access to more resources and always had access to more women. And so that's the reason why, you know, I teach these concepts. And so what happens is that blue Heron thing that we did, the guy who ran it, he's at the forefront and he goes, "I want to just thank you guys for coming out here and helping me, blah, blah, blah." [00:06:52] He had endeared so much goodwill with every mortgage broker, real estate agent. It was really crazy. All these other real estate agents wanted to train under him. People started sending him business. His business blew up. Another example I give, that's Jeremy Green's name. I have another example of my buddy, Mark Pearlberg, who's one of those also in my program. [00:07:09] Mark is an accountant. Mark started to see the way that I would use zoom calls and on the zoom calls, Mark would go on and show. How he understood accounting backwards and forwards better than everyone else who was listening, he showed himself to be a subject matter expert in the zoom calls. He was hosting in doing so, just imagine Jason, like, you know, I don't believe accounting is your specialty, but if you listen to accountant at first, it's interesting, but after like an hour and a half, you get to the realization, like, "this is interesting, but I don't want to do this." [00:07:37] And then at about the two hour mark, you're like, "This is interesting. I don't want to do this. How much do I have to pay you to do this?" And so because what we did and he started hosting a podcast and because he started hosting these zoom calls with other professionals, now he tells me, he's like, "I actually had to slow down the podcast because I can't handle all the business that I have. [00:07:55] There's not enough of me. In order for me to be able to do this." And he works from home. He just, an incredible lifestyle that he's created. So when we go back to what we're saying before, you know, I learned initially, "okay, what are the mechanisms that cause people to be cool or not cool, to be popular, not popular, to be low status or high status?" [00:08:13] I learned that when I was working in Austin, you know, nightclub, I learned that when I was in the U S military, like what good leadership and bad leadership was. And then I learned it in the last 13 years here living in Las Vegas. And I took all those lessons and I, from the last say, 25 years, and I put them into a course called the men of action course and try to concisely take this 25 years of knowledge and put it into one space so that everyone can learn how to do these kinds of things. [00:08:35] Now, here's where it might be confusing for some of your audience, the mechanisms that men use in order to show status with women in order to date them and the mechanisms that men and women use in order to pitch an idea or to sell a product are the same mechanisms. They are the same. This is difficult. A lot of people don't grasp this. if you guys ever want to see a great example of this, great book you should all read is Oren Klaff's book called pitch anything. Listen to some of the words he uses. Jason, you remember eliminate neediness. [00:09:06] Do you remember that? Eliminate neediness. Where does that come from? Where does that come from? It didn't come from self help. Eliminate neediness is a dating concept. Okay? Avoid beta behavior. Do you remember? Oren Klaff says this in his book. He goes, "avoid beta behavior." Where does that come from, Jason? [00:09:21] That is a dating concept. So where do these things come from? At the highest level Jordan Belfort, he calls it goal oriented communication. So goal oriented communication is, "will you go on a date with me?" Goal oriented communication is, "Ken, will you invest in my project?" Goal oriented communication is, "will you come work for me?" [00:09:36] Goal oriented communication. I'm doing this because this is like the apex of community of goal oriented communication. All these places meet at the apex, and that is the understanding of basically Dale Carnegie's how to win friends and influence people, get people to talk about themselves. You can find common interests, figure out ways to break rapport, all these different things. [00:09:53] And like what I teach my clients, Jason, the number one thing I teach my clients when it comes to high stats networking is you need to be the person who always solves problems for other people and ask for nothing in return. A great example is, do you remember Harvey Keitel in the movie Pulp Fiction? [00:10:08] You remember he's the wolf? Do you remember Pulp Fiction? I haven't seen Pulp Fiction. Okay, so tonight you're going to watch Pulp Fiction. Every single other person watching this has watched Pulp Fiction. [00:10:17] Jason: I know, everybody else has watched it but me, so.  [00:10:19] Michael: There's a point, there's a point where they have to clean up a dead body and they have to call this guy named the wolf and he just, he fixes things. [00:10:25] He's a cleaner. The wolf shows up in his Acura NSX, it's Harvey Keitel and he just fixes things. He goes, "are you going to listen to me or do you want to go to jail?" And he does, he just fixes everything. That's what I become. I'm the guy who fixes things for other people. I have a bunch of friends. I help them find people for their sales team. Most of my friends have met their boyfriends or girlfriends through me. I help people find their employees. I'm the hub. I'm the hub of the social wheel. And that's what I teach you to do in my course. If you cannot replace your social circle, your girlfriend, or your job in 15 minutes, you don't have enough abundance and I need to teach you how to have more abundance. [00:10:56] And so how do you do that? There's just certain mechanisms that people who have an abundance mentality and understand networking have, and when they use those techniques, then they can have anything they want. They get into any door. So another example, Jason is like the guy who goes to the Tai Lopez conference or the Taylor Welch conference or goes to see Cole Gordon or goes to see Wes Watson or goes to see whoever. [00:11:17] The guy who is like, "Hey man, thank you for your time." The one who like goes and pays Patrick bed David for his counseling. And then there's the guy who Patrick Bet David who goes to see Patrick David for his counseling. And then Patrick David was like, "Hey man, can I come visit you and hang out? Come meet my wife. Let me take you out to dinner." Does that make sense? There's a mechanism you'll see, like with a lot of people have asked me this before. Why is it that, you know, other people are like paying to listen to Justin Waller speak, but like Justin Waller and I are like close friends? [00:11:42] Why is it that other people like buy Rollo's book, but Rollo is one of my best friends? Why is it like all these other people call me and I'm not trying to say this to brag, but the reason why I'm trying to say this is there's a status line that you get to where you're a customer, and then you're his friend. [00:11:56] How do you cross that status line? This is such a key for those of you who are like, trying to get into sales or trying to understand networking. It's just like, I'm paying this guy, like how much, like I'm paying Tony Robbins. I'm a customer. I'm customer. Now Tony's like sending me messages on my birthday. [00:12:09] What is that status line? Some people's like, "well, you just need to have more money." And I'm telling you that is not what the case is. That's definitely not what the case is.  [00:12:15] Jason: Who would want to connect with people that they're only connecting with you because of money? I mean, that'd be a really shitty reason to be connecting with somebody.  [00:12:22] Michael: In the beginning, you will. But after a while you learn, whenever I go up and talk to my favorite influencer, let's say I paid for his coaching program is my voice cracking or my eyes getting big is my vocal tonality changing because I see this person as high status. [00:12:38] Am I dressing too fancy to try to show off? Am I doing too much or am I just like just the normal dude? I am. Oren Klaff, one of my favorite YouTube content creators. I don't know if you are not Oren Klaff. I'm sorry, Orion Terriban. All right. His name is Psych Hacks. Well, I had him on my show a couple of days ago. [00:12:54] He kind of converges behavioral economics with evolutionary psychology. And he basically talks about the sexual marketplace as far as economics is concerned. Okay. Really great person. Have him on my show. Ask him a bunch of stuff during the show. One of the things I talk about is like, "Hey, Orion, I know that you do some sales stuff, some coaching stuff. If you want my help, I'll help you how to, you know, put out a low ticket offer, high ticket offer, how you can like buy back your time." he's like, "yeah, you know, I can't scale myself that much." I was like, "okay, so you're going to read buy back your time by Dan Martell." [00:13:21] And then I gave him a bunch of books, you know, that would probably help him. And then at the end, I was like, bro, anytime you want to call me and you ask me about any of this stuff, I'll help you. The guy who has the world, you guys look it up. The guy with the world record in the high jump on planet earth is a guy named Darius Clark. He went to Texas A& M. He's the leading scorer in slam ball. Have you ever seen slam ball, Jason? Remember the trampolines and the basketball, they go dunk on each other. Anyways, I bumped into Darius at a slam ball game. We started talking and I'm, and then Darius is like, "Hey man, I want to level up my social media." [00:13:50] And I'm like, "Darius, let me figure out ways that I can help you level up your social media." So it's like one guys are like a professional athlete. Another guy's an accountant. You might be saying like, "why is it you're able to do all these different things?" And the reason why is because these are evolutionary problems. [00:14:04] These are evolutionary challenges that all men we're looking for. There are three things that really differentiate men from women. Three massive things. There's more than three, but these are the three biggest ones. Jason here. Number one, this is the most obvious one. It's upper body strength. Men are about two standard deviations stronger than women as far as upper body strength, meaning the medium grip strength for a man it puts them in the top, you know, 98 percent and top 2 percent of women. Makes sense.  [00:14:27] Jason: Yeah. Which also throws off our balance is higher. Yeah.  [00:14:31] Michael: Correct. Also. Yeah. It also, there's a reason why some of the reasons why men live shorter lives is because they keep their weight up here around their waist. [00:14:37] Whereas women keep it below their hips. And that's really, it's further away from their heart. There's a couple other things according to that now that's the first thing. The second one is a variety of sexual partners. Men are again, two standard deviations. Yeah. Far more like meaning the median man is interested in more women than the other way around but puts them in the top 2%. [00:14:55] But the third one, and this was a really interesting one and I knew this one, but it was Tai Lopez I was at his house last Wednesday. And he was explaining this, do you know the main thing where women just do not care that much about at all? But men are obsessed with, you know what it is? It's in your title. [00:15:09] No, it's in your title.  [00:15:10] Jason: Let's see, friends, high status, what I don't know?  [00:15:13] Michael: Status. Women in general do not care as much about status as men do, meaning women don't kill each other over status as men have been doing for the last hundred thousand years. So in fact, Dr. Buss, women care about men having status. [00:15:26] Jason: Women care about men having status.  [00:15:28] Michael: Women care about the men that they're with having status, yes. Yeah, okay. Yes. I see. Meaning they care about status as an object to obtain, but not as a something for themselves. Or rather, if you've ever, if you've ever lived on a military base, it's one of the strangest things. [00:15:41] Whoever the base commander's wife is, she's like the leader of the wives. It's so weird. She did nothing. She didn't go to officer school. She didn't do shit, but because she's married to the 06, the base commander, whenever they have engagements, she is... it's so funny. Anybody who's been in the military, you know, this is true. [00:15:58] Whoever the base commander's wife is. She's all of a sudden like the leader of all the events, even though why? Because she's married to the base commander. That's the way it works. So men, women in general in gendered into themselves, don't care as much about status as men do men severely care about status far more than women do. [00:16:16] And so because of the, these concepts, that's why you'll see like with a lot of the stuff I'm saying when it comes to sales, this is for men and women, but when it comes to dating, women do not sit there and have to show their status in order to attract men. But the other way they do. Does that make sense? [00:16:29] Yeah. And that's why it's like an important differentiation to make. And that's one of the other things I teach in my course. Like when you also, when you're selling to men versus women, it's something that you need to understand. You don't necessarily need to sell to women based on status. Like how, "Hey Sherry, how'd you like those big shoulders to show off those muscles to get those guys?" No, they don't. It's that's a status thing shoulder to waist ratio is like a male strength machismo testosterone status thing that women just aren't as interested in, you know, so there's just interesting concepts like that. [00:16:59] This divergence innate differences between men and women and where do we find these differences? We find them in evolutionary studies.  [00:17:05] Jason: So I think it's really interesting what you talked about earlier. You mentioned like this gravitation towards basically what works, right. And we see this everywhere. [00:17:14] Like I've been in lots of different programs. I've worked with lots of different mentors, coaches, read lots of different books and I'm noticing more and more I evolve as a human being. I'm noticing more and more parallels between the best ideas. Like I just read a book on kids. It was like how to talk so kids will listen and how to listen so kids will talk. And it's probably one of the best communication books I've ever read. Like anybody could learn from reading this book because to some degree, we're all little kids in bigger. [00:17:44] Michael: Even without kids.  [00:17:45] Jason: And also I was like, this is brilliant, like self talk like psychology even in this book. [00:17:51] And I'm like, this could be applied to so many different things. And it talks about empathetic, like being empathetic in your communication. I'm like, this is brilliant. This will work so effectively for sales or for anything. And people think, "oh, it's for kids." Right. And so what works works. [00:18:05] And I read another book, something about relationships by David B. Wolfe. It was a really good book, and this was for grownups, but there were so many parallels between these things. And you had mentioned also with dating and you know, for example, sales really, there's so many parallels between going out and trying to get clients and trying to get dates. [00:18:27] Michael: The higher you go, they're not parallels. They're exactly the same. When you get to the top, they're exactly like what I'm saying is when you get to the top, meaning like Hugh Hefner, like when you're at the top and then you just see, it's just a total presentation and it's nothing but just showing status. [00:18:42] Oh, it's the same thing. It's the same. I bought a Tesla that like Playboy is a brand. Tesla is a brand. You start to see they're doing the same thing to your brain.  [00:18:51] Jason: So for the business owners, listening to this, who are not trying to be Hugh Hefner. Right. They're not, and maybe they're married like me and they're not like trying to get women, but they do want to increase their sales. [00:19:03] They do want to increase their status and they want to figure out how to attract more business. What are maybe some of the things that they could do to be more attractive to the real estate investors that they're trying to get as clients?  [00:19:18] Michael: Yeah, I will tell you the first thing is you need to be a way more cognizant of how you are perceived socially and for a lot of people, one of the things you have to understand is the more things become digital and the more your image can be spread across social media platforms, the less your actual merit of your business matters and the more the perception of your business matters. [00:19:40] Jason: Yeah. How do they get an accurate view of how they're perceived?  [00:19:46] Michael: You could ask other people. I mean, generally the market is going to tell you, right? What is the price of of a commodity? The market's going to end up telling you right. In a free market economy, but it's like when you make social media content, you need to make them the content to market your business in a sexy, fun way that catches people's attention, but it doesn't have to be extremely representative. And I know this is really hard for a lot of people to do because they're like, "no, I'm just going to be myself and make content that feels organic." And I'm just telling you that doesn't work. [00:20:14] I don't care what Gary Vanderchuck told you. That is not the way the world works. Everyone else is stunting. Everyone is using FaceApp and Facetune. All these other people are just showing images and pictures of the best parts of their life. I post on social media all the time. I did not post anything about me feeding my cats this morning. [00:20:30] Like, the people want to see the cool stuff. That's just generally the way it is. So, you're, the way you are perceived on social media again, that's what we, you know, Men of Action, our group, is when you're in a community that gives you accountability and feedback to let you know, hey man, this is not a good post or this is a good post. [00:20:45] When we are on Instagram specifically instagram trades, a currency and that currency is called status. That's all Instagram is. Facebook is not like that. By the way, you guys will notice for those of you do any kind of marketing, Facebook is going to work really well for your 38- 40 year old audience and older. [00:21:01] And Instagram is going to work for your audience below 38 to maybe 28 and then maybe to 25 and below 25, it's going to be TikTok. And you'll notice, depending on which audience you're trying to get to, that's where you're going to see the most prevalence on those different platforms. Also, you're also going to see the most politically progressive of those platforms will be TikTok and the most politically conservative all those platforms will be like Twitter or X. So you, these are kind of the things that you have to learn. What you need out there is a perception that people have of your business and you have it as an entrepreneur. So you need to be trustworthy. You need to seem like, you know, more than everyone else, like you're a subject matter expert and you need to seem extremely motivated. [00:21:40] And in doing so as well, when you show images of your business and you personally, you need to show relevancy, competency, access to scarce resources, and social proof. Those are the things that will help. So what I mean by social proof? Other people in the industry following you on Instagram is a great way to almost look like a testimonial or maybe they leave comments. [00:21:59] That's a great way to show social proof, relevancy. Are you trying to use banner ads from 25 years ago? Or you're like, "Well, I'm still using email blasts." Okay. If I'm talking to a guy in real estate and he's telling me about email blasts, I know he's not relevant anymore. If I'm sitting there talking to stuff, if that's all he's talking about, right? [00:22:17] If he's sitting there being like, you know, he doesn't use Instagram, but he's got an SEO guy. I'm like, okay, he's not relevant anymore. He doesn't know. He hasn't changed things. But when I talked to a guy and he's like, "yeah, what I did was I started a podcast and in my podcast, I do 20 minute interviews with different people using restream. And then I have a guy come through and make clips and then I have, and then the best clips I end up promoting those clips on Instagram or using meta. Facebook Ad manager, meta ad manager, and in doing so, then I make the best ones and I turn them into advertisements and I put a CTA at the end." I'm like, okay, that guy's relevant, that guy gets it. [00:22:49] Jason: Then we're relevant here at DoorGrow.  [00:22:51] Michael: What you're doing is extremely relevant.  [00:22:52] Jason: If they have an AOL email address, they're like, "what's your email?" [00:22:56] Michael: That's exactly, it's not relevant.  [00:22:57] "It's aol.Com." [00:22:58] "I have a Facebook, but I don't have an Instagram." You're just not relevant. Like I can tell you're not relevant. When people are like, "well, my audience isn't on Instagram." It's like, it doesn't matter if your audience is on Instagram, you're trying to grow your audience. And by the way, the market will tell you what it wants. And every day, I'm sorry for those of you who don't want to hear this. Every day, each one of these platforms becomes slightly less relevant. Okay? [00:23:19] TikTok is on its uprise right now. Instagram is becoming less relevant because of TikTok, Rumble, YouTube, and Facebook to a certain audience is also already completely irrelevant. You'll see women below a certain age do not have a Facebook, but they do have an Instagram. [00:23:32] So the answer is to have all of them. All of you should have, you should be making 30 to 90 second content, the up and down type of content. Not landscape of profile content. You should be making that and it should be going on Snapchat. It should be going on X. It should be going on YouTube. It should be YouTube shorts, TikToks, and Facebook and Instagram reels. [00:23:50] It should be going at all those different places. You can use HubSpot or some other platform in order to post that content. And the content doesn't just have to be clips that go viral from podcasts. You can do man on the street videos. And here's a big one. All of you can do this. You can do reaction videos. [00:24:04] All of you can do reaction videos. They're so easy to do. And by the way, you don't even have to like, you're just like, "Michael, I don't know how to use OBS and I don't know how to do a reaction video." All you have to do is sit like I'm sitting right now. I'm in my den. You know, obviously I put some soundproofing behind me, but I'm in my den, I got a big ol ring light in front of me, and somebody comes up to me and goes, "Michael, what do you think about the Trump assassination attempt?" [00:24:23] Or "Michael, what do you think about, you know, Kamala Harris or whatever?" And I'm like, and I just turn my camera like this, like I'm talking, "Man, I'll tell you what I'm thinking. I'm thinking, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah." And you just say, and as soon as people watch the video and they're like, "This guy's about to tell me what he's thinking." [00:24:35] Then everyone will watch. And then some of you are listening right now and you're like, "I'm just a property manager. I don't want to talk about politics. Really go watch Ryan Pineda. Go watch Bradley, go watch Codie Sanchez, go watch Tom Bill. You go watch any of these guys who are crushing it in their fields. [00:24:51] They give their opinions on everything. Did you guys hear Alex Hormozi now talks about dating? What? Yeah. You're building a brand. Status is status. Like nobody cares. This is the other thing, Jason, a lot of your clients, and this is something I've talked to you about, and everyone in my program hears me talk about this ad nauseum. [00:25:08] Is the concept of like, I'm afraid that I'm going to post the wrong thing and nobody holds you accountable for anything you have to say, like, I was just looking at a video of Kamala Harris at a P Diddy party, walking around with Montel Jordan. No one seems to care that ever happened. No one cares about Joe Biden talking about, "I don't want to send my kids to school with the monkeys." [00:25:26] Nobody cares about it. No one cares. Like you said, like Donald Trump had sex with a porn star while his wife was pregnant and they brought it up during the debates and no one cares. Literally one of the most popular movies of all time The wolf of wall street is a about a man who did 15 months in prison for securities fraud, punched his wife in the stomach, kidnapped his own kid, did quaaludes and slept with prostitutes, and then afterwards, he is one of the top sales trainers in the world today. But you guys think anyone cares. Caitlyn Jenner runs over someone, kills them, and then four months later is named woman of the year. But you're like, "Michael, I'm a property manager. What if I post the wrong thing?" Here's another thing, Jason, and this is a poor reflection on humanity, but it's absolutely true. [00:26:09] If you get popular enough, they will forgive you for anything. And if you don't believe me right before OJ died, I had a conversation with him and they had offered him millions of dollars to do a fantasy football podcast, and I was like, OJ, what about those people you stabbed 56 times? Nobody cares. So many of you are watching this right now and you're like, you have 400 followers on Instagram and you're like so worried about posting the wrong thing, bro. [00:26:32] You don't have 400 followers on Instagram. You have four followers on Instagram and one of them's your mom. No one cares what you're doing. Most of you on social media are irrelevant and because you're irrelevant on social media, in reality, you're invisible. Listening to this, when you ask me what the advice is, your job is to become visible. [00:26:49] Some of you will be offended by what I say and the rest of you will be successful. You've got to decide which one you want to be.  [00:26:54] Jason: So I'm going to play devil's advocate for a second here, right? A lot of property managers, they think "I'm going to go start posting about property management. And maybe I'll get some investors that want to like work with me." [00:27:06] And so they start posting property management with this false assumption that people really care about property management, right? And so the analogy I'll usually share with property managers is I'll say, "how many plumbers are you following on social media?" And they'll say, "none." [00:27:23] "Why?" I said, "they want your business. Why aren't you following them?" And so there's this false reality that these social media marketers will sell to property managers. They're like wasting their time. And some of them spend a lot of money and time with these social media companies, wasting time promoting their property management business on social media, when nobody gives a shit about property management, even their clients don't wake up in the morning and go, "man, I'm thinking about property management." [00:27:50] Jason, what should they be doing instead?  [00:27:52] Michael: Yes. Jason you saying that just got me. I want someone who's watching this to do this and then tag me in the video when you do it. Jason, as a property manager, do you ever have nightmare tenants?  [00:28:03] Jason: So to be clear for those listening...  [00:28:05] Michael: yeah,  [00:28:06] Jason: I'm not managing properties. I'm coaching property management business owners, but they would say, "yes," they have nightmare tenants. All the time.  [00:28:12] Michael: Do you ever have nightmare vendors? Like guys who come like when I say vendor, what I mean is the plumber, the carpenter, the guy who comes...  [00:28:18] Jason: Yes, they have problems with vendors constantly, they have nightmare owners. [00:28:21] They're managing properties.  [00:28:22] Michael: What about, well, I wouldn't do nightmare owners cause you're trying to get business. I wouldn't talk about nightmare owners. What I would talk about is. I would start off a clip just like this. "I had a nightmare tenant. This guy was destroying," and then it would just show pictures. [00:28:34] "This guy was destroying everything in the place. I swear. He didn't know how to, he couldn't aim and hit the toilet. He has just destroyed the place. And this is what I did to fix it. And here's three tips for you to deal with a nightmare tenant." Viral. Yeah. Viral. Not only are you viral. Everyone's coming to you. [00:28:52] It's like, "man, I don't want a nightmare tenant. I just bought this two bedroom, two bathroom. I don't want a nightmare tenant. I'm going to go do what he does."  [00:28:59] Jason: I don't want it to be a meth house eviction. Like, yeah.  [00:29:02] Michael: Yes. Yeah. You know what i'm saying? Like that's what I would do. I would go over like what are these and because what you're going to do is what are the biggest fears of the people who are hiring property owners, my nightmare tenant, my tenant who doesn't pay. Like those kind of things, and I would make content. What are the three steps that I did to do with the five tips that a lot of people's in this place don't do right? I would make content like that. And you could do opus there's these ai software apps that'll basically take the clip and then they'll just inject B roll that fits whatever the words you're saying. [00:29:33] You don't have to hardly do any work when you do it and then all of a sudden it's like, "it was a nightmare. This guy's made my place look like a roach house. Roach infested." And then it'll actually pull up an image like a whatever, a stock Shutterstock image of a roach infested home, whatever. [00:29:47] Jason: Now they're using ai. Even I'm seeing a lot of AI images Just flashing. Yeah. Yeah. Or, yeah. Correct.  [00:29:51] Michael: It could actually illustrate using artificial intelligence, illustrate the image for you. You could actually do that. So you don't have run into any copyright issues. Right. Or any permission issues. [00:30:00] There's just so many ways to do this. But what are you doing? You're showing relevancy and competency. You know how to use Instagram. You know how to create a clip using artificial intelligence. You have good audio. You have good lighting. You're showing relevancy. You're showing competency. You're showing high intelligence. [00:30:15] You're showing high social status. And then in the comments, you're like "LMAO." Like people are laughing my ass off. "This happened to me." "Oh my God, Jason, same shit." "100 percent true." And now I have social status. I have all these things. Why? Because I made some content that was engaging about something that is incredibly unsexy, which is property management. [00:30:35] That's how you do it. What are those ultimate fears that your prospective clients have? And I would just do nothing but make content about that. I have a friend of mine, FedEx fearless. His name's Bismarck. And this guy, he goes, "these are three reasons why you are ugly." And I'm like, "what?" [00:30:48] And like, he really goes after people. "This is the reason why your girlfriend is cheating on you right now." And everyone just, I'm like, "what?" And I don't want to watch, but I'm like, I need to watch this video.  [00:30:57] Jason: What's going on there? Yeah.  [00:30:59] Michael: It's so great. It's so great. " No, Michael, you need to be authentic with your social..." no, you don't. You don't need to be authentic. You need to capture people's attention. You need to be attractive. Your primary job is to be attractive on social media. Now what happens is now you got them with the hook, "Here are the top three things that I do to deal with this horrible tenant that I have" And then when they come in the hook now throughout there you give those three, explanations But you also throw in a little piece of advice that shows just a little humble brag that shows "In my 27 years of property management, this is the thing that I've learned." [00:31:30] Okay, little humble brag. And at the end, it goes, "if you want to learn more, comment, the word guide below," or if you're on YouTube, you'd be like, "go down into the description and click the link. And then blah, blah, blah." And it just ends up right down your sales funnel, maybe to a low ticket offer, maybe an ebook that you wrote something like that. [00:31:45] And the next thing, you've 10xed profits. You've 10x revenue. You're selling a course on property management while writing a book on property management, while having a podcast on property management, while being a property manager, all of it at the same time. And then you got to hire a new accountant because you got too many write offs. [00:31:59] Like you don't have enough time to pay your taxes. You got to get too much money. That's it. That's how this works. And that's about what I just explained to you. It's just the difference between getting it and not getting it, being relevant and not being relevant. And so a lot of people, what they're, they listen to me and they always make me out to be the bad guy because cause what I do is I tell people, no one cares about you. And no one likes to hear that. They like to think that the rest of the world cares about property managers. But like you said, no one's following plumbers. Right. But if I was a plumber, I would do the same thing, "man, I walked into this house and this toilet had exploded and just have an image of it." [00:32:30] And it'd be like, "okay, I need to hear what this is." "And then a monster crawled out of the toilet." I'm just kidding. And like, I would just, that's what I would do just to keep people's attention.  [00:32:37] Jason: So for those listening, can we qualify you a little bit related to social media, because you've got a good following? [00:32:43] You've got a sizable business because people listening if they don't know who you are, I want them to recognize you're very qualified to talk about this. Not so humble brag about yourself for a second.  [00:32:55] Michael: I have a men of action. We have 1600 clients that have gone through there. [00:32:58] 200 video testimonials if you go on the school server. And also we have a free community a free school server. What's about 43-4,500 guys in there. You're welcome to message. One of the things that I've told people is that if I join a group and they tell me not to talk to the other people in the group, I know this is a scam. [00:33:12] You'll notice sometimes with MLMs, you'll see that. I implore you to talk to anyone, any client that's ever gone through my program and they will tell you how incredibly satisfied they were. Also you, Jason, I'm sure you've seen my course is extremely comprehensive. It's about 65 hours long. That doesn't even include the live calls. [00:33:29] And then also there's a book, there's a required book list that you have to read in order to go through the course.  [00:33:33] Jason: I'll tell you right now, like an eight figure business for you.  [00:33:36] Michael: Just today, we've done eight figures in total, but as of this month, this is the first month we'll recross the mark. [00:33:42] It was what? 833 a month or something like that. We cross that this month. So that's about, yeah. So we're doing about a little bit under eight figures in revenue per year.  [00:33:50] Jason: This is more than any property managers probably listened to my show. So just for perspective. Okay. Yeah. Got it.  [00:33:57] Michael: Yeah. I mean, because coaching is scalable. [00:34:00] That's the reason why. And like the other thing I want you guys understand is a lot of people got into real estate because they were trying to find a scalable way of making income and they're using you to make their lives scalable. So if you guys read, buy back your time by Dan Martell, they're paying you to buy back their time as real estate owners. [00:34:15] That's what their job is. And essentially you're going to eventually do the same thing. You're going to pay someone to buy back your time from them. So the main difference, and I'm sure many of you entrepreneurs already know this, but. When you start off in the workforce, you are trading your time for money. [00:34:28] You're working at Chick fil A or McDonald's and you're being paying an hourly salary later on. You're trading your money for time. I pay one guy. He comes into my house. He turns on my computer, he turns on my camera, he turns on my lights, he sits me down, and then he just starts yelling at me to talk about certain subjects, and I have no idea, I'm just like, drinking coffee, and I'm like, what up, and he goes, "what do you think about this?" And I'm like, "oh man, let me tell you something, and then they record it," and then it's just a reaction video, and I do nothing. [00:34:53] I pay to get my time back. I have several editors that live in Romania and Nigeria and all these, because I don't want to edit videos anymore. I used to be a video editor and a videographer. I don't want to do it anymore. I pay one place to do the live editing for my podcast. I don't want to do that anymore. [00:35:07] I pay to get my time back. For those of you who are considering hiring a personal assistant, once again, highly recommend Dan Martell's book, Buy Back Your Time. In the book, he talks about taking your yearly salary and divided by 8, 000. And that's what you pay the guy hourly. Take your yearly salary, how much you make in a year, your yearly income divided by 8, 000. [00:35:24] That's it. They go over the reason why, but it ends up becoming like a 40 hour work week. You end up paying him one, you pay him half of what one hourly wage for years. So if your time is worth a thousand dollars an hour, you might pay him 500 an hour to get certain things done for your life. And one of my favorite sayings in that book is something done 80 percent right is 100 percent awesome. [00:35:43] And like, it was one of the hardest things to give up. The guy who does my timestamps, that was really hard. I love doing timestamps because timestamps were giving me clips and those clips would go viral and the virality would make me money, but I had to give that up. And eventually you're going to give up all these processes. [00:35:57] Another thing I'll explain for you guys who are entrepreneurs, one of the greatest tools you will ever find is an app called loom. Look up loom. What loom is allows you to make videos, but the video it's like, it's showing the screen on your phone or it's showing the screen on your computer while they're listening to your voice and you send it to your person. [00:36:12] So like, for instance, I do mass invites for certain events that I do. So I'll go on loom and I'll have a guy, maybe he speaks you know, Farsi or maybe this guy speaks like his English. Isn't that great? What I'll do is I'll go through my invite slowly and I'll do it like for 30 minutes, I'll just do invites and I'll show so he can see what it looks like. [00:36:28] And then I send it to him and then he looks at it and he has no questions. And my invites are done like that. Loom is one of the greatest way of passing along SOPs to people and then using them in order to buy back your time. So understanding all these concepts, it makes you more relevant, makes you more competent. [00:36:43] It gives you higher status. It gives you more access. And these are the things that you're looking for. In any walk of life, but especially in something like property management and you guys also understand as property managers Your job isn't sexy So what you have to do is you have to show the sexy parts of your job, right? [00:36:57] When I my favorite one are accountants and dentists. They're not my friend my friends who are dentists who know what they're doing, they show the fucking horror job teeth, You know car accident, messed up teeth, meth addict, whatever, and then they get the teeth back to 100%. And like me, as someone who doesn't care that much about dentistry, I'm just like staring like, "Oh my God, that was incredible." [00:37:17] Yeah. what you do is you figure out people's primary driver emotion and their biggest fear. And then from those things, from the primary driver emotion and their biggest fear and from those things then you make your content attacking those primary driver emotions and those biggest fears, okay. And when you do so it doesn't make any difference if you're an accountant It doesn't make any difference if you're a property manager doesn't make any difference what it is that you sell people will watch and they will be obsessed. [00:37:42] My brother, he watches videos of horseshoes. They basically, you know, they shave off the end of the horse's hoof and then they put the shoes on. He said it's like the most relaxing thing in the world to watch. And I wouldn't even think about that, but why is it? It's like something we don't even think about that much, but it's pretty amazing. [00:37:56] Like when you see, it's like very relaxing to watch stuff like that. You can do stuff like that.  [00:38:00] Jason: There's a guy that's viral for just, he finds distressed houses. And he just cleans up their lawn and the sidewalk. He's like, "Hey, could I mow your lawn? And it's like relaxing to watch the transformation." [00:38:12] Yeah.  [00:38:12] Michael: Another one that's great was if you guys watch the early Ryan Pineda stuff, what was he doing? He was flipping couches. He would find crappy couches, clean them up, and then he would sell them again. And he made a living from flipping couches. There's just all these different things. And like the concept of it sounds so boring, but I want to watch someone do it. [00:38:28] Right. It was the one where you'd buy those storage units and then you'd see whatever's in this. Oh, I forgot what that was. It was pawn shop, pawn stars or something where the people would buy storage units and open up in there. And there's like, sometimes there'd be nothing in the storage unit. Sometimes there'd be like a dead body in there or some crazy shit. [00:38:41] Like they find like a skull and like all of a sudden. Bag full of money. Yeah. Yeah. By the way, you guys know the producers were putting that bag of money in there, right? Like that wasn't real. That wasn't real.  [00:38:52] Jason: Reality TV isn't real either. You like to say social media isn't real and that's okay or something. [00:38:58] Michael: So rule number four in men of action is social media is fake and I'm okay with that because the money's real. And the world isn't fair. And I'm okay with that.  [00:39:05] Jason: Yeah.  [00:39:06] Michael: The world isn't fair and I'm okay with it. Rule number four in a, in social and of action is about acceptance. It's about accepting the world the way it is and never being a victim. [00:39:14] It's sure things are hard for you, but you're never a victim. You might be too short. English might not be your first language and you're having a hard time speaking it. You might be born poor. You might be born with some kind of ailment or disability that you feel like holds you back, but that's where you are. [00:39:27] You start from where you are. And then you create from there. Okay. You were saying something before about how you notice like all these books kind of converge in to the same place, three books that have nothing to do with each other, but it's the same concept. Ready? The power of now by Eckhart Tolle, the subtle art of not giving a fuck by Mark Manson and sapiens by Yuval Noah Harari. [00:39:45] You're like, wait a second. It's all the same thing. It's all the same. It's all this. I get to choose how react. I get to tell myself stories that change my behavior. It's all three of these books that have nothing to do with each other end up being the same book, not exactly the same book, but similar books. [00:40:00] Because once you get to the highest levels of enlightenment, transcendence, goal oriented communication ends up being the same thing for everyone.  [00:40:07] Jason: There's a one of my favorite books is by Byron Katie called Loving What Is. And basically, she takes you through this process of just asking yourself these four sort of questions to challenge your current view of reality. [00:40:21] And it takes you out of this victim sort of view. It's very much like cognitive behavioral therapy, maybe, or something like this, right? Yes. Or CBT or something. But yeah, so asking this question, is this belief that I have actually true? And a lot of our beliefs that we're holding on to that are holding us back. [00:40:36] And like, if we're not getting results in life, it's because we currently have beliefs that are not working for us. And so, if you see people that things are working well for them, even though you think, like, somebody might be watching right now going, "Michael is completely full of shit. He's throwing out all these crazy stuff and he's, he worked at a strip club" and somebody's like, so against that or whatever. [00:40:56] They're like their own stumbling block and they're in their way and they won't pay attention to the truth or the things that you're sharing that are good because they're so stuck on everything in the universe having to look a certain way that they are not even open to receiving more, they're not willing to challenge their own thinking. [00:41:13] They're not going to progress. They're going to stay stuck.  [00:41:16] Michael: They identify more with their identity than they identify with success.  [00:41:20] Jason: Yeah. Good way of saying it. And I love how you talked about kind of these currencies. One of my mentors in the past was Alex Charfen. And he's from here in the Austin area as well. [00:41:30] And he was talking about time, energy, focus, cash, and effort. He calls the five currencies. And Hormozi went through Alex Charfen's like coaching with me. I met Layla and Alex in this. And one of the things that I then saw Alex talk about these currencies. But what I thought was interesting is Alex said the most significant of those five currencies in order to scale and grow your business is focus. [00:41:52] It's the most important to scale, grow a company. And then Dan Martell, I once saw him teach this framework that was, it was like about the power of one. He's like, "the most effective business is a business has one sales funnel, one product, one..." it was like all ones, like, And I see property managers, a lot of times they'll try and like start five different businesses. [00:42:14] They're like, I'm going to start a cleaning company, a maintenance company, like all these other things.because they're complimentary real estate brokerage. And then they wonder why none of them are growing because they lack focus. And so all these things kind of converge, making sure that we have focus. [00:42:28] You also mentioned Dan Martell, who I think is a brilliant entrepreneur, he generally was coaching like software companies, SAS companies to help them grow and scale, but his stuff's applicable to coaching businesses. I've noticed it's applicable to anything because the principles are valid. [00:42:44] And one of the things I've had my clients do to get them to that next level, to basically get their time back is to have them do a time study to where they become accountable for their time, which things are positive and which things are negative, like plus or minus, which things give them energy in life and which things take it away in their own business. [00:43:00] And I have them do this like usually once a quarter. And when I did my first time study, I realized I was doing like four hours of podcast production in a week. It all added up and I was like, holy shit. So then I just hired a company to do it. It was a no brainer to let that go because it was stupid at that point for me to hold on to that once I could see that challenge. [00:43:20] And you mentioned loom, awesome tool for like one of my favorite tools, like it, which is next level. It's like loom, but it's Wistia's video recorder. It lets you actually record the screen and yourself. And then after the recordings made. You can then have it mid recording. You can switch which parts are showing and have segues between the two. [00:43:42] And it's super fast. It's like super cool. But we use tools like that.  [00:43:46] Michael: Productivity. Yeah, definitely.  [00:43:47] Jason: Yeah. So, I love all these ideas for collapsing time. Michael has dropped several awesome tools, knowledge bombs, ideas for those that are listening and also how to leverage content social media wise. [00:43:59] So what you know, if we were to bring this full circle what would you say is the most important thing that maybe business owners or property managers could be doing to scale and grow their business?  [00:44:13] Michael: Right now? Again, one more time. It is: understand, your ability to grow is based on your perceived status, your perceived trustworthiness, your perceived know how. Not your actual know how. Like, I can tell you so many guys that I know that are real estate experts on YouTube. And then I have my friends of mine that are real estate agents. And they're like, "that guy doesn't know shit." And I'm like, "no, he's coaching the white belts." That's the why, the reason why he says the things that he says. [00:44:39] And they have a hard time dealing with it. So, understanding that concept. And then. You have to leave yourself. You have to subvert your own ego, go on places like TikTok or Instagram places you'd never think to go to, and then look at who's going viral, who's in your exact industry, and you're going to need to take pieces from what you see. [00:44:56] Like, what are the kinds of videos that do really well? And you're going to be able to find those very quickly. You can literally right now would go on Tik Tok and look up property management and you'll find a bunch of videos, like just pick the ones that go the most viral or a real estate, a podcast, and then pick the topics that go the most viral and just blatantly steal them, steal, blatantly steal everything. [00:45:19] You in the beginning, no creativity necessary, just steal. Okay, and you do that for a while and then you start to sort of get your footing And then you start to realize wait a second, I've been running ads and my ROAS per dollar my ads is x 1. 2 or 2. 0 or whatever but in organic my cost per lead is like nothing because my organic traffic, it costs me so much less to get a lead. [00:45:44] It's incredible. Then I go on someone else's podcast because my content is getting better and better. And then all of a sudden now, you know, Rich Summers and Ryan Pineda want me to come on their show to talk about, you know, maybe I'm on ice coffee hour or whatever, talking about real estate. [00:45:58] And then I get on bigger and bigger shows and now my cost per lead decreases even more because I just had this simple understanding that the way it works is my perceived status my perceived know how and my perceived trustworthiness to other people are the reasons why people will buy my product. Now you may already obviously everyone who's listened to this if you have any success in property management You already have your funnel is probably dealing with either word of mouth shaking hands, or it's dealing with some sort of paid advertisement, but I implore you try organic. Try to use organic and then organic meaning using Instagram posts or Facebook posts. [00:46:33] And then once you do that, try to take your best content and turn your best content in an advertisement and promote those, promote that content. That's something we've also been doing. And if you want examples on everything I just said, a great book, a great place to start is the 100 million offer series by Alex Hormozi. He goes over every single thing that I just talked about. It's absolutely fantastic. It's really great stuff. The difference is with my program, MOA, we're a little bit more bespoke for what it is exactly that you're doing. But we're mostly talk about networking. And then the other thing is, When you actually meet that person in person that you want to work with, do you come off as a fan boy? [00:47:06] Do you come off as too eager? Do you, does your body language show signs of neediness or signs of low status? Are these things that you can watch? And then how do you figure that out? You watch yourself on camera. Do you watch yourself on other people's podcasts? Because that's one of the things is like as social media grows and more people are exposed to more people, just remember like if you consider in the plasticine, you know, we live in hunter gatherer societies of 150 people and now we can legitimately have a hundred thousand friends on social media in that kind of situation because we're exposed to more people, we are more attuned to status, physical appearance, et cetera. And so now what happens is humans essentially become more shallow. [00:47:46] They become more attuned to other people's status and rightly or wrongly. Is it a negative commentary on humans? Yes, it probably is, but it's the world you live on. And if you want to get rich, you need to listen to what I'm saying. And if what I'm saying, offends you, get ready to stay poor. Like, I'm sorry. [00:48:01] If you guys are listening to this right now, and you're like, "No, social media is going to go away and we're going to go back to walking up to doors and do an email blast and buying banner ads." If that's what you think, go back to your AOL. com email and just keep believing that's the case. [00:48:16] It's all about the handshake. It's like, if that's what you believe, that's fine. But for the rest of you who are ready to understand that if you think things are bad, I got news for you. They're only going to get worse. Meaning people aren't going to put their phones down at dinner. People aren't going to take fewer photos. [00:48:30] People. I was reading something. It was like, like in one day, now more photos are taken in like an hour than were taken during the entire year of 1985 or something like that. It was like the amount of photographic and video data that's uploaded in one hour exceeds the total photographs taken in an entire year back in the 1980s. [00:48:49] Some absurd number like that. If you think things are going in one direction, things are getting faster. They're more virtual. They're more digital. Digital, they're going to be controlled by artificial intelligence and they're going to be more scalable. You need to get on that train. The train is leaving. [00:49:05] You need to get on the train. Now, if you don't want to get on the train, that's fine, but notice as the world passes you by and the rate at which it passes you by only increases every year. If you want to learn about that, read Ray Kurzweil series called the singularity is near, and you can see how he talks about the rate of change is increasing, and then the rate of change is also increasing. [00:49:24] Jason: Okay, so this is awesome stuff. So Michael one thing I want to point out for those that are listening. Because I think you've sold your Men of Action short a little bit. So I'm gonna, I want to say something about it because what I think is in, what people think is in there probably based on what you're saying is it's a bunch of social media stuff and it's like how to, maybe how t

In a world of financial uncertainty and rapid market changes, long-term investing success can be achieved by focusing on the areas and strategies that are within your control. You've undoubtedly heard that investing is an excellent way to build wealth, but there's more to investing than simple tricks like "buy low, sell high". This episode dives into a compelling conversation with Michael Keaveney, Vice President of Managed Solutions at CIBC, as he describes the key habits of successful investors including investment diversification, investing regularly and staying disciplined amid market volatility. Both novice and seasoned investors can leverage the insights and strategies discussed in this episode to enhance their portfolio and effectively manage their financial future. Here are three reasons you should listen to this episode:Learn why investors should prioritize their own financial objectives and maintain realistic expectations about returns.Discover how a well-diversified portfolio can manage risk and enhance returns.Understand the benefits of a regular investing plan.ResourcesCIBC Asset Management insights hub: Preparing your portfolio for market volatilityCIBC Smart Advice hub: Three tips to make your regular investments work harder CIBC Investor's Edge poll: Many Canadians' financial strategies overlook investing  Episode Highlights[00:22] Economic Outlook and Market ConditionsOptimism for investors is growing, with 2024 poised to bring a resurgence in market performance.Despite past challenges with inflation and rising interest rates, the future looks promising for the market, especially when considering investment diversification.CIBC's economic team expresses cautious optimism about the economy's resilience and its positive influence on investments.The value of the Canadian dollar remains an important consideration for crafting effective investment strategies.[01:17] Carissa: “Everyone has a different investment goal, different appetite when it comes to volatility and duration in the market.”[02:31] Realistic Expectations and Investment DiversificationInvestors need to understand and focus on their individual goals. Set realistic expectations for their success and timelines.Educating yourself about the market is crucial. As an investor, remember that the market is complex and always affected by various factors.[05:50] Michael: “Markets are not linear in the return path that they generate for you. A lot of your overall return comes from a relatively small number of really good periods. And we don't know exactly when those best times will come.”Market volatility is an inherent feature, not a flaw, of the market. Investors should prepare for and accept this volatility as part of the investment process.Many investors lose market opportunities because of jumping in and out of the market. People tend to jump out after the worst days and miss the best time.Shift your investor mindset. Understand that short-term downturns will happen instead of jumping in and out of the market.[07:56] Why You Should Look Into Investment DiversificationDiversification remains a powerful strategy for managing risk and enhancing potential returns.A well-balanced portfolio can smooth out the ride by reducing overall volatility.[08:42] Michael: “Diversification reduces volatility due to less than perfect correlation between asset classes.”The approach to balanced portfolios has evolved, now incorporating broader foreign exposure and innovative alternative investments.Constructing a balanced portfolio involves adapting and fitting expert ideas from different asset classes into your diversified portfolio.[14:25] Behind the Scenes of InvestingShort-term market dips are natural. Staying invested through market cycles is often more effective than trying to time the market.[18:21] Michael: “There's always going to be something in the portfolio that is the laggard. That's the whole point.”Regular investing is crucial in order to achieve key financial goals such as a comfortable retirement. A regular investing plan can help you finance your whole lifetime.To achieve long-term investing success, focus on the areas you can control. This includes personal goals, risk tolerance, and investment strategy.Currently, negative news and uncertainty push people to make fear-driven decisions. Instead, focus on your long-term goals.[20:27] What Makes a Good Investor?A lack of knowledge and fear of loss often hold potential investors back from making informed decisions.[23:20] Michael: “Fear is not conducive to long-term success.”Michael identifies what makes a good investor: having clear and realistic goals, learning from your mistakes and other people's, discipline in investing, and cautious optimism.Gaining insight into the inner workings of balanced portfolio management can demystify the investment process and bolster investor confidence.About MichaelMichael Keaveney is the Vice President of Managed Solutions at CIBC. With a strong background in investment management, Michael leads the development and oversight of CIBC's managed investment solutions. He is known for his expertise in portfolio management, investment strategies, and client-focused financial planning.Michael has played a pivotal role in evolving CIBC's balanced portfolio offerings, including increasing foreign exposure and alternative investments. His work with Morningstar also gave him powerful insights into the investment behaviour of several demographics. His approach emphasizes investment diversification, disciplined investing, and helping clients navigate market volatility with confidence.Connect with Michael Keaveney on LinkedInEnjoyed this Episode?If you did, be sure to subscribe and share it with your friends!Post a review and share it! If you enjoyed tuning in, leave us a review. You can also send this with your friends and family and share valuable insights into how investment diversification becomes your shield against volatility.Have any questions? You can connect with me on LinkedIn or through CIBC's Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram.Thanks for tuning in! For more updates, visit our website. You can also listen to more amazing episodes on Spotify or Apple Podcasts.

“Hopefully, this is a renaissance,” says Sam Jean, who returns to Cuckoo 4 Politics for another episode of Raw & Uncut as we wrap up 2023. It's been a year full of high profile labor strikes, which remind people of the power of unions to stand up to corporations to fight for a living wage. Of course, this doesn't stop many people from blaming immigrants for depressed wages and low employment. America has a history of demonizing its most newly arrived citizens, blaming them for all its problems, while simultaneously relying on them to make up large parts of the workforce. As Americans, we must question which of our foreign policy maneuvers have forced people to come to our country to seek a better life.  This hypocrisy extends to the highest positions of government. Americans continue to labor under the illusion that those on the Supreme Court hold themselves to a higher moral standard than the rest of us. Yet, as Michael points out, Judge Clarence Thomas accepts all sorts of gifts and favors from rich donors, compromising. Sam calls for term limits in the Supreme Court, to help tamper down such corruption and compromised integrity and corruption.  Meanwhile, too many conservative candidates are weaponizing their religion as a way to mystify their followers, something that Sam predicts will only become more pronounced during the 2024 election season. If there's one abiding truth, it's that Donald Trump makes everything worse.  Quotes: “We have to address why it is that people are coming here. The other thing we don't address in terms of our foreign policy is what has American foreign policy done to some of these countries that are sending us their migrants? Why? Why is that happening?” (9:20 | Sam) “It seems like the public understands that the workers have no leverage and their only leverage is to strike. And when they start striking and they start explaining what they want, regardless of how the media tries to interpret it like, ‘Oh, they expect a living wage.---the shock of it! God forbid someone get a wage that allows them to live–I  think that (18:17 | Sam) “One thing the strike demonstrates is the power of labor and organizing labor because the workers by themselves do not have sufficient leverage to stand up against the corporations. They just simply don't. You think one worker can stand up to Ford, Chrysler, GM? Not at all. So this demonstrates the power of labor, and hopefully this is a renaissance for labor movements to come back.” (19:27 | Sam)  “Judge Clarence Thomas. The man is literally hanging with big donors who are paying for his–everything–from taking him on lavish vacations, to paying for anything he wants and we think, ‘You're supposed to be impartial?' Is he another Tim Scott?” (24:28 | Michael) “There is a separation of church and state because we understand in this country that there are people who believe and there are people who don't believe. We have to treat them the same way. You don't need to insert religion to have an outcome that is fair. Can we use religious ideas to form certain laws? Of course we can, of course people do, but the laws are sufficient as they're written without a hint and a hinge of religion.” (30:12 | Sam) Links cuckoo4politics.com https://www.instagram.com/cuckoo_4_politics/ https://www.facebook.com/Cuckoo-4-Politics-104093938102793 Podcast production and show notes provided by HiveCast.fm

“Even if you're not involved in a case, it's important to care who is sitting in these seats,” says Judge Jill Beck. For the past year, Judge Beck has traveled throughout all 67 counties of Pennsylvania, in a campaign to be elected to the state's Superior Court. She joins Cuckoo 4 Politics to explain what goes on in all four levels of the court system – something that even lawyers find confusing at times. She also explains what judges do not, or should not, do. Despite many peoples' growing fear of partisanship within the legal system, judges are not meant to promote or overturn precedents but to make decisions based on the evidence put before them, and to make sure justice is served and upheld.  A self-described “born neutral,” she herself has drafted 500 successful decisions under Superior and Supreme Court Judges and Justices. She has the highest recommendation from the Bar Association, a deciding board free from political partisanship. Placing an “R” or a “D” behind a judge's name is a mistake, she warns. It compromises the motivations of an already reluctant voting populace, who may not realize that judges swayed by politics will only work in their favor until the vote swings the other way. It also raises the question of how those judges who owe their position to political backing maintain their impartiality.  The concerns of Pennsylvanians reflect the concerns of Americans. On today's episode, Judge Beck explains how she balances her personal and professional life, her most memorable cases dealing with injustice that keep her motivated and why she and Michael actually enjoy jury duty. “I always tell people, the courts serve as a check and balance not only on our legislative and executive branches of government, but also in the courts below. The things that are coming before the superior court really affect people's lives. Because we're talking about someone's right to be free from incarceration, their right to parent their children, the right to access and make healthcare decisions on their own, the right to their wealth. Their safety. Their home. Their inheritance. These are big picture things that affect everyday Pennsylvanians even if you're not the litigants involved in the case, because our courts are interpreting our Constitution and our statutes. A law that did not adversely affect you yesterday, very well could adversely affect you tomorrow. So, it's important to care who's sitting in these seats.” (13:51 | Judge Beck) “A lot of people are looking at our courts and seeing them as just a third political arm of the government, and not as the fair, impartial and apolitical branch that it should be.” (21:06 | Judge Beck) “I always tell people, when you vote, you're investing in your community. And when you do vote, they also put you into the jury pool. And that's just showing that I, the citizen, have an active role in my community. And I could weigh in on that decision. It's not just elected officials.” (26:08 | Michael) “There is no such thing – or there shouldn't be – as a Democratic judge or Republican judge. We're just judges, we have to do the job, give every single case the time, the effort and the energy to ensure that the facts were correctly found and supported by the trial court. That the law was correctly and faithfully applied in every single case. It isn't brain surgery, truly. But it's an incredibly important job.” (30:48 | Judge Beck) “Seeing injustice, seeing someone hurt, seeing someone have their rights violated, that motivates me to do the job, to do it right, and to make sure Pennsylvanians–that people–are protected, that they get the justice that they deserve. My goal truly is for our courts to be a place where justice can be for all.” (36:39 | Judge Beck) Links Connect with Jill Beck: JillBeck.com,  @ElectJillBeck cuckoo4politics.com https://www.instagram.com/cuckoo_4_politics/ https://www.facebook.com/Cuckoo-4-Politics-104093938102793 Podcast production and show notes provided by HiveCast.fm

Today's guest is Michael Gevurtz.   Michael Gevurtz is an entrepreneur and investor in the real estate and finance industries. He is the CEO and founder of Bluebird Companies, a diversified real estate organization specializing in private lending, development, and construction management.   Show summary: In this podcast episode, Michael shares his experience working for a real estate investment trust and how he ventured out on his own after the financial crisis hit. He discusses his decision to become a lender and how they mitigate risk by underwriting loans conservatively. Michael also talks about their focus on bridge and fix-and-flip loans and the importance of assessing borrower credit and cash flow potential. He emphasizes the significance of effective communication when managing a remote team and discusses scaling and team building. -------------------------------------------------------------- [00:03:41] The start of the lending business [00:08:52] The importance of single-family properties [00:10:05] Origination and sale of 30-year rental loans [00:11:43] Selling loans at scale [00:13:16] Fixed and flip loans [00:18:33] Leadership and scaling the business [00:21:49] The remote management approach [00:22:52] Benefits of remote management [00:23:56] Closing remarks and contact information -------------------------------------------------------------- Connect with Michael: Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/company/bluebird-companies/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/bluebirdlending  Web: https://bluebirdlending.com/   Connect with Sam: I love helping others place money outside of traditional investments that both diversify a strategy and provide solid predictable returns.     Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/HowtoscaleCRE/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/samwilsonhowtoscalecre/ Email me → sam@brickeninvestmentgroup.com   SUBSCRIBE and LEAVE A RATING. Listen to How To Scale Commercial Real Estate Investing with Sam Wilson Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/how-to-scale-commercial-real-estate/id1539979234 Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/4m0NWYzSvznEIjRBFtCgEL?si=e10d8e039b99475f -------------------------------------------------------------- Want to read the full show notes of the episode? Check it out below: Michael Gevurtz (00:00:00) - Lending is a risk mitigation business. That's really what it is. What asset class do I go after to make the safest risk adjusted return for me and my investors?   Intro (00:00:11) - Welcome to the How to Scale Commercial real Estate show. Whether you are an active or passive investor, we'll teach you how to scale your real estate investing business into something big.   Sam Wilson (00:00:24) - Michael Gavin is an entrepreneur and investor in the real estate and finance industries. He is the CEO and founder of Bluebird Companies, a diversified real estate organization specializing in private lending, development and construction management. Michael, welcome to the show.   Michael Gevurtz (00:00:39) - Thank you, Sam, for having me.   Sam Wilson (00:00:40) - Absolutely. The pleasure is mine. Michael There are three questions I ask every guest who comes on the show in 90s or less. Can you tell me where did you start? Where are you now and how did you get there?   Michael Gevurtz (00:00:49) - Yeah, sure, Sam So I started in 2005 working for a real estate investment trust here in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, Real estate investment trust. They they focus on they specialize in enclosed malls and shopping centers.   Michael Gevurtz (00:01:07) - Um, for about five years, I was a development director for the most of the properties in the South and part of the part of the mid-Atlantic region. So at that time, from 2005 through 2010, they were acquiring portfolios of malls and shopping centers. And that's and that's when this redevelopment initiative really took place in retail, when retail started changing. So converting big, you know, anchors and big boxes to more lifestyle oriented uses, maximizing value through developing out parcels on underutilized land, things like that. So I cut my teeth and I learned the business of real estate development there, which is a great experience because it was a large company. They owned 20,000,000ft² of of property fully integrated in-house. And and then the financial crisis hit. So and if you remember, the retail really got hit hard during that time. Um, so from there, in 2009, I decided to go off on my own. And from 2009 to about 2015, I was focusing. I was purchasing local properties in the neighborhoods, the emerging neighborhoods and outside Center City, Philadelphia.   Michael Gevurtz (00:02:34) - So in South Philadelphia, parts of North Philadelphia, a little bit in West Philadelphia. And we you know, we focus on this this urban infill strategy where I developed over 70 properties in that six year period, ranging from single family homes to sell single family homes to rent, mixed use properties, you know, apartments above a retail use or a restaurant, something like that. And that was really fun. And, you know, a lot of those investments, you know, we still own today. And then in 2018. Um, I brought, you know, from 2015 to 2018, I was experimenting with blending. So, you know, you're out in the neighborhoods, you're meeting these contractors or other real estate investors, and the market started getting a little overheated, at least I thought, at that time. So I started lending to contract, you know, other contractors and investors, 100,000 here, 200,000 there with some of the money that I made in the real estate business. And then it was successful and it was working and it was a relationship business.   Michael Gevurtz (00:03:41) - It wasn't actually a business. It was more of like a side investment. But then in 2018, I decided to bring all my real estate expertise and knowledge and the properties I had developed and manage and pair it with the lending business. So since 2018, we've been primarily focused on fix and flip bridge lending and 30 year rental products.   Sam Wilson (00:04:04) - That is really interesting. I want to go back to a comment you made where you said you felt like the market was getting overheated. Why would that then say to you, this is a good time to become the lender? I would have thought maybe it was the other way around where it's like, Oh, the market's overheated. The last thing I want to do is be holding a note on stuff that's going to go belly up. Well.   Michael Gevurtz (00:04:24) - Well, I didn't. The risk on that on those deals is in the equity position? Sure. So I'm underwriting these loans, especially at a conservative LTV. Back then it was like 50%. You know, back then it was more of like traditional hard money.   Michael Gevurtz (00:04:43) - And we can talk a little bit about what hard money means and things like that. So I didn't want you know, I started buying stuff 2009, 2010 that was like shooting fish in a barrel. I mean, anything you bought went up for the next few years. Reynolds Single family home prices went up. It was easy. And then around like 2015, like it wasn't so easy anymore. I was looking at different things, different way to attack it. No, I agree with you. I would not want to lend at a high LTV on an overheated market. But the way that I look at it is I take over the property if the borrower can't complete it. So, you know, I'd rather expose 100 to $200,000 in the debt position that instead of equity at that time.   Sam Wilson (00:05:24) - Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. No, I think that's really cool. The thing I love about your story here is that you said you still own a lot of that portfolio that you built up from 2009 to 2015.   Sam Wilson (00:05:37) - Yes, I think that's awesome. I did a kind of a bag of the napkin analysis of everything I bought from 2013 to like 2020 because I was in the fix and flip game for actually 2018 when I got out of the fix and flip game. But I looked at that and I'm like, I could have retired if all I did was just hold that portfolio.   Michael Gevurtz (00:05:58) - Well, well, I'll tell you, it's funny you say that because the the best deal I ever did on a on a return basis was a package of eight single family houses in South Philadelphia that I bought in 2012, paid $100,000 apiece for them. They were all rented with great tenants for 12, 1300 bucks a month. And then, you know, I pretty much financed it 100% because there was equity in the deal where I was able to refinance it, you know, a year or two into it, get my money back. And I did make the mistake of selling most of those off. Now, I kept a bunch of them.   Michael Gevurtz (00:06:36) - But I do think about that sometimes. I'm driving down the street. I used to own that house. It'd be worth, you know, $400,000 today. But the majority of the portfolio I've kept.   Sam Wilson (00:06:46) - Good for you. Good for you. You're smarter than smarter than me. That's. Yeah. Which you can't. I mean, hindsight's always 2020 or at least somewhat. Sometimes it's 2020, I think I should say. But and that's just, that's just business. You know, you take the wins when you when you get them and you think you're winning and you are and you move on.   Michael Gevurtz (00:07:06) - Yeah, you can't.   Sam Wilson (00:07:07) - Always second guess it. But it is also interesting just to see what how the strategy, if I could go back, how you would have changed that. But I digress. And kind of getting off off track here because we want to talk about your lending business that you've built from 2018 until now. You guys focus on. Will you tell me like, what's what's your core business look like in the lending business now?   Michael Gevurtz (00:07:31) - So the the core business is that we're bridge lenders.   Michael Gevurtz (00:07:36) - We provide funding capital to acquire, construct and refinance Single 1 to 4 family properties is our core business. When I started it in 2018, it was heavy on the bridge side. There's a lot of fix and flip going on up until more recently because the real the state of the real estate market, it's kind of frozen is how I describe it. Yeah. In single family and commercial, we're doing a lot of 30 year rental loans for people who, you know, are trying to get, you know, flip their bridge loan into a perm. That market's really been healthy or people who own properties free and clear with little debt on them. And, you know, the capital markets are pretty, pretty dislocated at the moment and they're looking for money either for working capital or to to acquire more if they have equity in their property, 30 year rental loans. Great way to go.   Sam Wilson (00:08:37) - Yeah. So tell me tell me about, I guess in the first part of your statement there, why did you focus on the 1 to 4 family? What was the opportunity there that you saw in that versus other potential assets to lend on?   Michael Gevurtz (00:08:52) - Um, well, I started there because that's what I just knew and I built and renovated a bunch of stuff.   Michael Gevurtz (00:08:58) - I mean, it's kind of like where a lot of people start, right? The, the single family market, single family home market is, is more stable and has a longer track record of. Providing year over year growth compared to other asset types. You know, as I mentioned, I'm familiar with retail development and you see what's happening in the office space right now. People need a place to live. Look, multifamily is getting a little skittish because that could be a little overheated. The single family market is definitely the most stable and wanted, I thought to myself. Lending is a risk mitigation business. That's really what it is. What asset class do I go after to make the safest risk adjusted return for me and my investors?   Sam Wilson (00:09:50) - Got it. No, I love that. And now you. Now you've really switched, it sounds like to you said the 30 year rental loan. How do you how do you capitalize that and then get your money back? Are you selling those notes off? Yeah.   Michael Gevurtz (00:10:05) - Is that we all. Yeah, we can't we don't have the capital structure to hold 30 year paper. Right. So it's all are all originated used off warehouse lines and partnerships with capital providers and. It all goes to investors who have an appetite for that long term.   Sam Wilson (00:10:24) - Right. Right. That's that's interesting. So tell me how that how does that process work? Like, what's the turnover time from? Okay, maybe you guys have investors and I'm just I'm speculating here. So tell me if I'm wrong. You guys have investors give you money, you guys then go out and you close this 30 year, you fund this 30 year loan, but then you take that and then sell that off. Is that about the.   Michael Gevurtz (00:10:46) - Yeah, exactly. I mean, it's it's all about so the loans can be originated within 21 days. That's our average turn time. The and it's a turn business and it's a it's really a fee. Business is what it is. We're providing a service to match, you know.   Michael Gevurtz (00:11:07) - You know, our customers, our borrowers with the appropriate capital source. So we charge origination fees. There's some processing things that go into it and things like that.   Sam Wilson (00:11:17) - Sure. Sure. No, completely understand that. I was going to ask you about that. So I'm losing my train of thought here. Let's see. Isn't the buyer side of things now is looking at that. So yeah, it's a fee based business, but what's your what's your typical term? That was a question. What's your typical turn time from the day they closed? Yeah. Until you sell.   Michael Gevurtz (00:11:36) - An asset within within 1 or 2 weeks. Okay. It's quick. Yeah, we don't. I don't hold it on the warehouse line for very long.   Sam Wilson (00:11:43) - Right, Right. Okay. I gotcha. And then how do you match that up? I mean, are you selling these to private equity? Is there just a pool of buyers that you just put it out to and say, hey, I got this loan available? Or how do you how do you effectively sell those at scale is the question.   Michael Gevurtz (00:11:58) - Um, so this is a new product that we're working on and I actually have not yet in the chat, so to speak, on. Selling them at scale. We're smiling them off one by ones and small packages and things like that. But that's, you know, the next thing that we're going to be working on. Got it. And, you know, we need scale. For the securitization market. That's where all this stuff is going, right? Right. So it's going to be anywhere from 50 to $100 million at a clip. And again, look to you before, we're not there yet on the 30 year we're doing. You know, we focus a lot on the bridge and the fix and flip space, which is an entirely different loan type. And we hold you know, we hold most of that on our balance sheet. Um, but it will be it will be an interesting journey on how to. Efficiently execute on the aggregation and sale of those of those loan assets. And the way I look at it, I'm going to approach it, You know how I have built all the other parts of my business and, you know, we're going to take a clean sheet approach to it and I'm going to hire the best people and, you know, connect with the best people in the industry.   Michael Gevurtz (00:13:14) - And we're going to figure it out.   Sam Wilson (00:13:16) - Right? No, I like that. You know, and that was my next question. Was your fixed and flip loans, things like that. I would imagine that those are like you said, there are things you hold on the balance sheet. Is that simply just because the returns on those mean that's that those are those are interest bearing loans that at a number that probably makes sense.   Michael Gevurtz (00:13:36) - It's mostly because of duration I mean they're short duration you know average is say is a little under 12 months and you have to think about. Well, the where, you know, the capital that we have to lend doesn't have the time horizon for 30 years, first and foremost. And then for the other aspect is that, you know, duration isn't is expressed in time, but it's really a measure of risk as a result of interest rate changes. Yeah. So. Right, So a, you know, last year was a great example. Our entire portfolio for a period of time for a couple of months was like not making any money because our cost of capital was rising and our interest rates were fixed.   Michael Gevurtz (00:14:23) - On our bridge, on our bridge loans mean the whole industry, you know, got hit pretty hard by that because of how fast the rates rose. But because of short duration, it didn't affect the asset value of that loan. And I was able we were able to just run them off and then originate new loans at a higher rate. Right at market, Right.   Sam Wilson (00:14:41) - That makes sense. That makes sense. And and would you say because your your capital is, like you said, warehouse lines and things like that, do you take and it's probably a floating rate that just adjusts all the time. Do you bring in private. Do you raise money from private investors at fixed rates or is that just an entirely different side of the business or different strategy altogether?   Michael Gevurtz (00:15:03) - Yeah, no, no. We have we have the investors that plug in the equity capital required for the warehouse lines, and they're paid just a fixed rate of return based off the income that comes off the fund. Got it. And then the warehouse line fluctuates based off of Sofr or prime.   Sam Wilson (00:15:22) - Right. Got it. Okay, That's. That's pretty that's I mean, that's a pretty complicated series of things that have to happen because you're you're again, I'm just getting my head wrapped around. The way this works is that you have lenders that get a fixed rate of return who basically collateralized the warehouse line. Is that a fair saying.   Michael Gevurtz (00:15:43) - That that's exactly what to say.   Sam Wilson (00:15:45) - Yeah, right. Okay. And then you're borrowing off of that warehouse line. So you. Yeah, it's that is and.   Michael Gevurtz (00:15:52) - And that's why the short duration is important because imagine if we were taking long dated risk on a short that's that's a recipe for disaster and that's a that's effectively what you know the SVB banking crisis was. You know they their deposits and everything are short term. Their capital short term, they're borrowing short term. And they were buying long term instruments that they couldn't weather that storm and had a market down to market.   Sam Wilson (00:16:19) - Like selling options you have you would at that point have unlimited risk. You know. Exactly.   Sam Wilson (00:16:24) - Yeah.   Michael Gevurtz (00:16:25) - So yeah you it's like the.   Sam Wilson (00:16:27) - Premium but then you have unlimited risk as the interest rate rises. So it's like you got to offset that somehow. And the way you do that is by, you know, compressed duration.   Michael Gevurtz (00:16:36) - Exactly. That's right.   Sam Wilson (00:16:38) - That's cool. I love that. Very, very cool. So we've talked a little bit about your private lending business. Actually, I have a couple of questions here before we kind of shift gears and talk really about the business side of your business. But, um, where do you see risk right now in the space that you're in? And I know we talked a little bit about this compressed or shorter durations is a way you offset some of that risk. But what are some other things, I guess market sentiment? And then where do you see risk and how are you guys offsetting that?   Michael Gevurtz (00:17:07) - So. It's really a function of, you know, credit the borrower's credit and loan to value on the collateral. And, you know, I was having a conversation with a colleague of mine in the industry, and all he wanted to talk about was, well, what's the LTV? What's the value? What's the value of the asset, what the value of the collateral.   Michael Gevurtz (00:17:28) - And that's, you know, nice to look at an appraisal and say, you know, yeah, this house is worth $400,000, but if there's not many transactions, you have to resort to cash flow. You know, what's, what's the what's the borrower look like, What's their experience in their ability to execute and what type of cash flow can the property throw off, even if it's not designed to even if their plan is to sell it as a flip? You've got to look at the rental income because that will be able to ride you through a rough patch. Whereas value, who knows what values are today in reality.   Sam Wilson (00:18:06) - That makes a lot of sense. Makes a lot of sense. Very cool. One other point I wanted to make here is that you guys have just gone to a national lending lender.   Michael Gevurtz (00:18:16) - Yeah, we're we're now national lenders. We're able to lend across the country opposed to just stay here local in Philadelphia.   Sam Wilson (00:18:23) - Got it. Well, let's talk about that because that requires team. That requires building a business that requires you as the leader to, you know, get out there and organize all your people in the right ways.   Sam Wilson (00:18:33) - So what have been some things, I guess, on the leadership side and scaling your business that have been kind of some important lessons that you've learned over the last few years?   Michael Gevurtz (00:18:42) - So I think. The first thing, looking back at some of the mistakes I've made, is that before you scale a business, you really have to define what you're doing, why you're doing it, what are your values, what's the culture that you want to create? And because everyone does create. A culture, they just might not know what the heck they're doing. And then if they grow and grow and grow one day, they look around themselves and they're like, I don't like what this guy's doing or how this guy's behaving or how we are collectively, you know, attacking this. So, you know, I went through for a few years. It took me a few years to really figure that out. And I went through an exhaustive process to define my objectives from a leadership standpoint. And and then the next challenge is, you know.   Michael Gevurtz (00:19:42) - You have to communicate it. Um, you know, what are our values again? What are our. What's our mission? Our mission is that we provide capital to real estate investors so they can accomplish their goals. And I've seen it across the board. Some of our clients are just looking to build up a portfolio to create wealth for generational wealth. Some of our clients are looking to improve neighborhoods. You know, they grew up in an area they don't like the direction that's going into. And so once you really, you know, they don't like the direction that it's going into. So that's why they're motivated to do what they do. So when you're able to connect those points together, then you know you have a purpose behind that. And that's really I think we're like, you know, we're the special sauce is.   Sam Wilson (00:20:26) - Yeah, no, that's very, very cool. And it sounds like you would like to align yourselves with borrowers that have kind of a mission and purpose behind what they're doing that kind of aligns with what your mission and purpose is, Correct?   Michael Gevurtz (00:20:38) - Correct.   Michael Gevurtz (00:20:39) - I the word alignment, you know, is key. Like, you know, going back to after when I left Crete, you know, I built all those properties and some of them, you know, with a series of different partners. I was looking for partners. I'm a I'm a I love the action. I'm a deal junkie by trade, by nature. And, you know, you get into a partnership with somebody and they're your friend or they do something that you do, and then you realize, well, it doesn't really complement what I do. And our interests really are not aligned. So alignment of interest between internal stakeholders and external stakeholders is really important to me. Yeah, and being able to identify that is key.   Sam Wilson (00:21:24) - Right? That's that's fantastic. What's it been like scaling across the country? I mean, that requires that communication, um, really just to increase exponentially, I would think you accomplish that.   Michael Gevurtz (00:21:39) - So.   Michael Gevurtz (00:21:41) - It's. Remote work and hybrid work has really you know, that shift has really changed the landscape.   Michael Gevurtz (00:21:49) - I used to have a mentality of that. You have to have people boots on the ground in the neighborhoods across the country to get that going. And, you know, a couple years ago, a colleague of mine and. Pretty much, you know, opened my eyes up. The fact that there's so much data out there and, you know, and he was in in Baltimore, Maryland, and I could tell you what's going on on the property in North Philadelphia that you're lending on. I know it just as well as you do. And I'm sitting here in Baltimore. So, you know, we mostly most of the national stuff is done totally remotely and we spend a lot of time. I spend a lot of time with my sales director, for example, making sure that he's managing the sales staff and. You have. He's so diligent with communication. When you're when you're managing remotely, you have to essentially keep it, act like you're in the office together, but not right. And it's not intuitive for a lot of people.   Michael Gevurtz (00:22:52) - But. If you're diligent with that, the results can be great. And, you know, in terms of because, you know, we have we have sales guys in Florida that are doing deals up here. You know, they just you know, all the borrowers have the same objective. You know, we know what they want. It can be anywhere.   Sam Wilson (00:23:16) - Right. Right. Oh, that's cool. Absolutely. Love it. Michael, I regret that we are out of time because there's a lot of questions here on the leadership team building, scaling side of things. I feel like you've got a front row seat to growing something. I think you get you get some of the people and they're always excellent guests. But on the show, you know that have are looking back 40 years ago and going man this is what it took to grow but I feel like you are kind of in the middle of it. And so there's a lot of lessons that we can we can really learn from you. Thank you for taking the time to really break down your business, the private lending business, how you guys are offsetting risk the products you guys see that customers want right now and how you guys are aligning yourselves with your borrowers on on what your company core values are and what they're accomplishing as well.   Sam Wilson (00:23:56) - So I think this is a really cool space. I absolutely love it. Thank you for taking the time to come on today. If our listeners want to get in touch with you, your firm and learn more about you, what is the best way to do that?   Michael Gevurtz (00:24:06) - The best way is Bloomberg lending. There's a a contact us and an apply now page and that will go straight to our sales team and we'd love to talk to whoever is interested in working on the next project.   Sam Wilson (00:24:22) - Fantastic Bluebird lending Blue Bird lending. If I could speak today.com bluebird lending. Com and make sure we include that there in the show notes. Michael thank you again for your time today. I do appreciate it. Thank you Sam. Hey, thanks for listening to the How to Scale Commercial Real Estate podcast. If you can do me a favor and subscribe and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, whatever platform it is you use to listen. If you can do that for us, that would be a fantastic help to the show.   Sam Wilson (00:24:51) - It helps us both attract new listeners as well as rank higher on those directories. So appreciate you listening. Thanks so much and hope to catch you on the next episode.  

I can't fall for this again— Another rich and handsome man— A dream he wants to be my friend A dream he wants to hold my hand Oh look, Another dance for anthem Look, I'm just another fan No, I can't fall for this again —but they would go against the plan A simple programming error, Lips the color of a pomagranite Circle on the palm, And then , of course, We press the center And look, here we are again Another life, Another love A new wife— Another husband Honest? I'm just good with fucking —aha I just want to fuck you I got love, but what it good for Look at me, or look at nothing! Look, I'm just good with fucking Check the news for new engagements Fucking sick and fucking tragic Nothing more than actors, DJs, drinks and addicts Look, I'm just a happy accident— I still hate Dillon Francis And I never wanted Skrillex: That shit never even happened! Have you had enough yet?! Carrot cake does sound good Ten karat long engagement ring— Is that a lot? I'm just a homeless Look, I'm just another DJ Some fake model stole it Some would call it occult Magic —honest? I just want some dick, man Fuck it —aha I just want to fuck you I got love, but what it good for Look at me, or look at nothing! Look, I'm just good with fucking You know why you like me?! Yes, I know why I like you— Cause I'm rich! —no, actually—it's because you're smart. Where in the fuck are you going? I don't know yet. Well, know faster—we have company. Fuck. Destroy every bit of evidence. Ok. —and make sure nobody sees you. Yeah, right! YO. Why the fuck are you here, Timmy? I told you, I'm not Timmy. I don't give a fuck who you are—where's my money? It's— it's on the way, I promise. I'm don't take well tk promises, Timmy. What do you take well to? Money. FUCK. What! FUCK, FUCK, FUCK! What?! We're too late, she's gone! Goddammit. —She was already here! FUCK. FUCK. FUCK! >>> FUCK! How do you know? —there's glitter, everywhere. Is it gone? It's gone? ALL OF IT. TIMMY TRUMPET plays a SKRILLEX. Etto, Timmy?! Oh shit, another Timmy. That's weird. I was just thinking he about Skrillex. Why. Timmy, put a shirt on. That's it. What. You can't be hot and play the trumpet. Why. One thing's gotta go. THE DEVIL takes away Timmy Trumpet's ability to play the trumpet. WHAT. Can't have both. Well, I don't really need both now, do I? When I'm in a tough spot I have to listen to deadmau5 —something about the precision and frequencies out my brain somewhere between auropilot and dead space. I don't know. I've done just about everything you can think of listening to deadmau5. Almost. But, I noticed— Working out to deadmau5 is strange. It puts me in some kind of vibration where people notice me— Not just notice me. People are suddenly “impressed” with whatever it is I'm doing. And it's usually something regular as fuck— I'm just doing it to deadmau5. And for some reason, people are like “Wooooow!!” Okay, whatever. I used to work out to Skrillex. Actually. I used to work out to only Skrillex. I don't know if its just because I was fat, or cause I liked Skrillex. Now its like running a serrated knife up my spine. I started to figure out I was kind of famou— Kind of— When I showed up at the gym and Skrillex songs kept coming on I'm like “This is what I get for doing nothing but free trials” But hey, You try finding a gym in the shitty areas of New York worth paying for. It's very hard. The crazy thing about this story is— There's a lot of crazy things about this story, actually. EXT. BASKETBALL COURT. DAY. Alright— shirts and skins —Shirt—Skin Shirt,Skin— Uhh! Nah. I wanna be “shirts” Why dude?! Your girl's mad hot! So?! So I know you got it goin on! Look at you! I'm mad rich! Yeah—but girls always cheat on flabby rich dudes! With hotter dudes. My girlfriend might be cheating on me! Yeah—She's not, though. How do you know? Cause I tried! Yeah. Take your shirt off. No—uh! How do you know she's just not into you! Because! He tried— HE tried! You sell out. And Andre tried— [ANDRE is tall (about 6'9 dark, and handsome] —you too, bro? [ANDRE shrugs nonchalantly] That's an NBA player— What the FUCK, YO. —and she said NO. ANDRE Yup. Shot me down. Oh really—from all the way up there?! Face it, man! You're fuckin hot! I don't like the way that sounds coming from you— Take your shirt off! Were you this aggressive with my girl?! Don't be like that… Nah— fuck you! Yo! C'mon, man— And you three! You're holding up the game getting mad over nothing. It's Hollywood! It's Beverly Hills! —Exactly my point! You're new here—you'll catch on. You know what! I'm shirts—you're skins—Game on. [SUNNI BLU goes beast mode and plays the dirtiest, most whoopass game in history—out of spite and anger of the toxic masculinity; this of course earns SUNNI BLU even more respect as a “man's man”] Later: as the owner of the clippers, sunni BLU trades “Andre” to the worst basketball team in history. For, As soon as the moon is full, She also begins to wane— And as sure as we are to shine, We also fade away I had one slice of red velvet cake, one slice of cheesecake—which of course only reminded me of Sonny Moore—the decadent, delicious red velvet—and Dillon Francis—the spiced and ecclectic trademark carrot cake—if only not to sooty the pain of joe much I wanted both of them, but probably didn't need them—how I craved them so, but they probably weren't good for me, nor would they last— —but they would both be delicious, anyhow. The seagull said. “To the sea, we go!” Overhead, he flies As the day goes by me Idly, I wait— I could take a ride, But i'd rather be By myself, By my… INT. EMPIRE ENPANADAS. NIGHT You gonna order? What you got? Empanadas. Just empanadas? —Yeah. Okay, that's weird. Lol the only thing funny about this scene is that their New York accents are so atrociously heavy. Right. —weird. INT. SUBWAY STATION. DAY. Sunni BLU is passed out in the subway station. Ew… Yeah, my god. Wait—is that— —sunni?! SUNNI drunkenly groans. Sunni! Get up! Ughhhh. What are you doing?! I'm drunk. I know that. You're always drunk. Yeah. What are you doing here. What. In the subway. I do this sometimes. What. For what?! You never know who you're gonna meet. In the subway On the floor?! YeH! I met R- Kelly down here! What! When was this Not at this station, though, but yeah. To think, It was all just an awful game, to make you write more songs— And in the end, if you don't make the cut They just make you kill yourself, anyway. Love isn't real, but money is; And all men want is money, So they can buy the love— And all women want is love— But it has to come with money Or it all just falls apart It all just falls apart It all just falls apart “Illuminatus”, Open, close Illuminaudio, for starters Cross a crucifix for sons, and wanted daughters What's a brother to a sister— Or a mother to a father? What's a stop sign to a car, If no one's driving? In the end, they kill you off In the end, they kill you off With every cough, they kill you off— But there's always another Who wants to be a star— Or just The mother of his child, Maybe both Genetic lotto luck —the cut off. Agatha… A far cry, out into the distance–a wind, almost a whisper; A lover, long gone and almost since forgotten, unseen since the very dawn of time and first ever glimpse of light– …We Meet Again. FUCK. WHAT IS THIS. I know, man. FUCK. Fuck. Well, are you gonna tell this story or not? This isn't possible. It is possible. This isn't happening. – This dude has a radio tower in his front yard. That's his front yard?! I fucking guess. What is that. That's a satilite. Nice. Yep. Alright, you son of a bitch. Hey! My mom's nice! Not that nice–bringing you here. How do you know that's how I got here? Exactly my point. [cocks pistol slowly.] You're dead, mouse. OH. I GET IT. kill that motherfucker. Wait. Hold up. Hold the phone! Holding. How did we get to this point? I mean– a few ways. What are you watching. SHH. Wedon'tknow. SHHH. OK! SHHHHHHH! IT' getting good. Ya. It's getting deeper. So much deeper. WAit. … Who are you? I'm a fan. No. How did you get in my house? It's my house. It's– –no. No, it's not. YEs. this is my house. No. What. GEt out. SHH. What. DUde– No. Ze show is on and it is getting one deeper. Be quiet. IT's getting two deeper. –like nine deeper. SHHH. Oh, I get it. She really wants to fuck Dillon Francis. #FuckDillonFrancis Uh, no– I already did that. Gross. Excuse me. You are excused! I mean, I beg your pardon. Please, don't beg. Er, uh– Could you repeat that last part? Woah, this gets multidimensional as fuck. I have a time machine. Are there any loopholes? There are loopholes. THere better be loopholes. Sorry, we're out. GodDAMMIT. What. I was really looking forward to those loopholes. Well, they're gone. FUCK. HEre, have some Oh-Noh's. I don't want– Just SHUT UP and EAT YOUR CEREAL. Don't worry–I'm still Team Skrillex. There are TEAMS?! Oh, yeah, bro. Oh, so–it is a love story. I don't think that's what this is. I'M GONNA MURDER YOU. Ok. WITH MY DICK. A-1. There's something I need to tell you. What. But i'm sworn to secrecy Then how am I supposed to– Just–shh– follow my lead. “The Magic Effect.” Did it work? Don't know yet. You nutted to this girl 36 times in the last 20 Calendar days. Ok… 36 Times. One Girl. 20 Days. …What's your point. This is ferocious. I have your entire internet history. All of it? Oh yes. All of it. Welp. Well. THat's it for me. I've had enough. There's no Skrillex Deepfake. Aw. that sux. Why would you look at this? …why not, though? You're a disturbed man. I'm pretty regular. REGULR TO WHO? *shrugs* Me, I guess. TURN THIS OFF. I can't take it anymore. Whatever happened to the– SHHH. Fuck. I'm so wasted. So what do you think is gonna happen? Listen. I have a lot to get through. THis is all just nonsense. I think we're avoiding some heavy subjects, here. Well, there are a lot of discrepancies. Kill yourself. I just did. Kill yourself–again. I–GodDAMMIT. Just do it. NO. Come on. Congratulations, you got the job! Yes! Thank you! …What's the job? I need you to get the fuck out of here in the next five seconds–before I blow my head off, and take you with me. Don't do that. Five… Yo, i'm serious. Four… Jesus Christ, dude. YOu don't think this hits a little close to home. Home? what is home? For the Record, Skrillex, Dillon Francis, and Deadmau5 respectively are all getting their dicks sucked on yachts right now in some foreign exotic country– You're not wrong. That is correct. Standard music business. And People are living in tents under bridges. I'm just saying. If you think this project is reckless and bizarre, check your own simulation. So. So. Where were we? Somewhere between blowing our heads off and getting our dicks sucked? I'm sure there's a striking correlation somewhere. ‘My Candle Burns At Both Ends…' Oh, More Occult Magic God Bless The Illuminati GOD I Am The Illuminati Glad that's settled. Three. Goddamit, don't do this. Two– [cocks pistol] Why just pistols. Cause shotguns are messy– –and for dramatic effect; I love that sound. [the other party quickly removes his handgun from his waistband, shooting the other man and then himself quickly; They now both lay dead.] How do I write this Just write it. I need adderall. You need Jesus. By goD, youre right. [iPhone] What are you doing? Calling on Jesus. Are you serious. He's the plug. Ugh. I need adderall. What did I do?! YOu know what you did. ∆ Well, alright then. ∆ Must be something. ∆ I got it. “The Legend of Supacree” L E G E N D S “Tales of A Superstar DJ” To do: Cut Freaky Friday 001 Cut Throwback Thursday 001 Cut SOM III Part I {God Is God] Part II [Clockwork] –Pull 212 Remix It's far beyond my control I get out of my head and into my soul In one ear, never out the other If the wind blew down your door, How would I call for you? —Through her, I suppose And the silk of her hair, Or the satin of her dress, — Oh, it's almost admissible, Surely admirable, Worth a smile or not, That all the world is words, In the end, As I tear down my worlds, and start over from One And I've already stopped enough once for today, I think Surely, what you'd like is just The time to get it all to nothing (Never had I wanted it or needed it) The phone was ringing, But I'll never be off the hook again, If you look for the proper way to move forward, You'll never find it, Especially looking behind you (Always looking behind you— Head in the past Just like you It's just like me, Too, To sit down and decide a whole song about you While taking it all down. I'm never distraught with the thoughts of a stranger, Oh, on the contrary; You should be mad about battle, But I'm all for the veterans and And never off if we were not at war with one another, but Then again, That's all we've ever done It would be Devastating To even think of Something more clever “Clever and splendiferous confectionary efforts, Just spectacular concessions my dear; I'll have another.” Hadn't I deciphered once or twice the rhyme for riddles down to dollars and cents? I did, I thought, once. I never hindered Heaven from pondering over my shoulder once or twice upon a full lit moon, which under I predicted my own fortune. Once— or twice, but— Nevermind, or nothing; Indifference, for instance, instantly inscessent ancestral insimination incriminating risidual visuals uhh— —From the festival. Right. The festival project. [—Parallels.—] GOD: So you want to be The “Glass Animals” *nods* Glass Animals. That's what I said. Glass Animals There's no “The” Context. Ok. So–”Glass Animals” *nods* Are you sure you don't want to be made of something else? *nods* *shrugs* Okayy. Glas Animals. I'm lost, But don't remind me Running out of time But time can't find me Open up my eye 10 times in 9 days I should probably fall away Back to the bay, No baby, don't cry No baby, don't cry No baby, don't cry [Midnight Request Line.] Sleek black corvette. Not a dent, not a scratch And I am feeling better, Since you asked What a warm and welcome Pleasant, wet suprise What do I owe you the—time I guess it made me smile for awhile, now I'm sad again— Wow, that was quick… Only took a second, but don't mind my arrogance ‘—I play this and it puts me in a trance.' I want to dance with you I hope someone holds my hand like that, one day Where are you taking me? “Away, my dear, away…”, he's saying… I lie awake midday and taking shallow breaths, I drift away A weapon for my empathy, [Midnight Request Line.] I have no idea what happened. ‘Ambiguous Ambitions - The Crossing ‘ A shiver up my spine I don't really mind, I'm still trying to find the word for it— But tongue in cheek it is That's—if it fits You but me once, And I liked it Come bite me twice If you buy it; Alright, Ryan—where is it? Where is what? You know what I'm talking about. I don't know anything! “Ryan Remembers Everything” Goddamn it, wake up. I need silence. GET UP, GODDAMNIT. Okay— Okay— —I just need you to tell me where it is— Where what is?! I don't think this is very funny. This got serious. Ouch. I don't want to watch TV anymore ever again. I really wish you'd tell me Oh, you wish? Watch this. I'm sorry, Ryan. Hello. I—hello. I'll have a tall order of whatever's in that box. You want what's in that box? Yessir. What is happening? I dunno. I'm afraid that's going to be a problem. *gasp* can we have ninjas? *NINJAS* NINJA FIGHT. —oh sht rly. *lmfao* Sometimes i'm set in my ways, Sometimes days go by—days, In the blink of an eye, Ever since I decided, I might have had love with you. I think we have some things to figure out, about it —it being ourselves, And washing my hands never felt so right In my life Somebody told me the stars in the sky were spirit guides, And it stuck, I'm up all night, But i'm the only star I see In New York City Don't look up to see me— Don't look up to me please, kid, really I mean, why, my baby? I mean, Hi lady— You so fly tonight, just my delight I — Like the way I look by you I— You know, If I sit in the city every night like this, And write, It just might Be the end of me Be the end of me Be the end of me You know, If I did get the limelight, Right on time to soothe and Satiate my need to be an idol LC Even this late in life, Like— —fuck ‘8I just want him to like me' I shouldn't even think about Superstardom like that, But I'll be right back, I gotta get the rabbit out the White hat, What a habit to have, huh What an idea that we might all get along Or a lot done Or be better off alone Than just to fuck off And write another song— Because the audience will like it But we're all over it; It's all done, isn't it? “The Running Game” I don't know what you want to hear from me. How about, “I'm sorry.” Ok, I'm sorry. You don't do much, do you? I guess I don't. Sabotage//Salvation Idk what this is supposed to mean. This is my demise. You're completely a ticking time bomb. You're not wrong. Salvation, from the doldrums. A sound to soothe my soul, I sink beneath you, South and under smoky water Open mouth, and barely thought of, Although often, Walk or waltz, would I To fall, my love, So becoming of a flower; forth and outward over fountains; Leaps and bounds, Of course– Well, this is dope af. What are you doing. What. What happened. THis is really good. So. So, i gotta turn this one off now– And listen to that one insead. All the time? Yeah. Oh. For, like ever..? Well, no. I gotta put it in the vault. Noooh. Yes. YEs. Yes. Forever. FOrever, no, for now– yes. That could be almost forever. Yeah. Almost. “Almost Invisible.” Take out my eyes, for now (If i could, would you want them) To beg or to barter for, I offer them up, as Ritual sacrifice (it's just a) Ritual Sacrifice. These two eyes. __ He was the boy who owned the world; Hailing from the land of a thousand suns, He said, “I'll give you a dozen roses, honey, If all you ever do is, Smile for me, So, go ahead, Smile for a dozen roses or more,” And the irony is that she did it– Not for the roses, –but for the attention. (Just for the attention.) It was she who birthed the worlds; Building the land of a thousands suns, She said I'll give you a dozen horses, “If you could just– Pick the winning one” And the irony is, that he did it– Because he loved horses, And now he had twelve of them! (--And any one could be the winning one, no matter what she does; He's got a dozen of em, Anyway.) Fuck. What. Well, that went off the deep end. Fuck. Well, this just got dark. This guy comes off your blacklist tonight. No, this person Guy. PErson. Most certainly does not. I promise if I love a=a=A=a What is this That's a making no complese sense equation. Think about it in a multidimensional– Oh, that makes total sense. Just remember, when using this– this has been around for a really long time. It's been A long time. I died in your bed, But woke up in your arms; Oh when you love, love– Love me harder, Love me harder– Oh, baby when you love, love me harder Love me harder Love//Love Me Harder Love//Love Me Harder Love//Love//Love Love Me Harder Love//Love Me Harder Love//Love//Love Love Me Harder I woke up in your bed, And then died in your arms; It was a work of art, I suppose What we were, or are (Or aspire to be.) Please. Give me your iPhone. No! No? (Takes I phone.) Is there a reason you don't want me having this? …no. No? —it's full of stuff. “Stuff.” Yes. It's— “Stuff.” Yes. — —and things. I know. Look. We had a deal. We had no “deal” We had a deal. This train just goes on forever, you know; Whether you're on, or off it— So get off, and back on at the wrong stop Once, if not just for the discovery Of another supermarket, Where you shop for strawberries and Groceries Good flex, God; I got a gang of em I'm gonna explain it as straight as it gets Sometimes, You just got to know where to go If you don't trust your gut, You'll just never get, Never get it right. Alright, alright, I started it Alright, right— I gotta get it right, I gotta get ; I'm the worst at introductions Oh and, So bad at Goodbyes Oh, why'd you have to leave me by my idol Why, Why'd you have to lead me by my eyes By my eyes God, I love the way I love the way, I love the way you Love me God, I love The way you The way you Love me You forgot about me, didn't you? You forgot all about me You forgot all about it— All about it Al about it It's not the same, anymore Since you gave it a name, is it? There's nothing I can do To help me, help you This is all I can do, To help me, love you I have to remove you; I have to remove you In a room— Full of beauty— In a world, Full of woes I lose the last dose of you, on my tongue Nobody ever wanted it, like I do— Like I do I lose the last dose of you on my tongue, And I'm all full of love again; I never saw anything like it, I was a modem, still plugged into the wall An anonymous post partum unremarkable Post-party proclamations and eternal damnation for ordering breakfast Evading transportation authorities Unworried the informant sleeping under me Oh, Now she wants to song— Oh, look— And now, she has a song to sing A point to make, A wrong to ring; The man she brings along Is bad for her Oh, she's gotta work (She loves to work, She's got to work it) What kills her makes her stronger What doesn't kill her makes her stronger All she does is Carry on And Carry on And Carry on. “Mrs Sheffield left flushing queens, for this.” Mrs Sheffield left Flushing, Queens, for this?! Mrs Sheffield left Flushing, Queens for this! Mrs, Sheffield! -1flushing queens, fah ‘dis. Very well worth it, I got all the way to brooklyn And way beyond my means for this It's well outta my means. It's out of my hands, now. That boy called you “grandpa” How is it all over? When I bet to God I was, Just in your lap at this party, And you were under me slippin on some sort of Lager or Something Weren't you? Yeah, I was just there, too I was just there, too— I was just there, too— Oh, now she has a song… All of a sudden.— But it's not all of a sudden at all It's not all of a sudden There's nothing, is there? Oh, There's something, surely I went to bed late; But I'm getting up early. I see the way he looks at me— —take it easy, baby We could have the whole room waiting Like a stoner at a stop sign My bad, My eyes lie to me All the time Driving me mad Telling me I want you inside me My bad My bad Well, I want you in my bed But I haven't had one yet I'm thinking Purple Mattress; Or is that mids, to you kids Like Timmy ho's Or my mustang civic It's a custom, yeah Nobody has it yet It's a hybrid Like I am —I am a bit off subject, now (My bad) We never had sex in my bathroom (That was your house) I took a mouse to the mountain (My bad) My writing is getting more Acid-centric, Lysergic acid diethylamide; I didn't buy any, But I haven't the need anymore, Really I just wake up like this: That is, when I wake up (I have long nights, kids) My bad I want to see you very briefly Without your briefs, You know what I mean? Me neither— Sexual delinquency in meditated frequencies Repeat this sequence I keep my deepest secrets Where I need it Right up my slime, Where my spleen is— Dreamed it, and I haven't cleaned since (Or dreamed since) In this Endless emission, Ignition sequence begins When The Lean splits Under the blood moon; An eclipse. I drift off a lot— Just thinking of your penis My daydreams are not very safe for the public I think they're X-rated or worse, Even thinking of you as a person, Or worse: As my husband once, as my lover— Lovers have all the fun, anyway Hm All the things that I'd do to you After you put me through— What are you looking for, exactly? A synchronicity. Just any synchronicity? There's no such thing as “just any” synchronicity. Does “laying low” mean nothing to you? I'm laying low! On a city tour?! It's a big city! [From Afar] IS THAT HER? Aw, fuck. Well, well, well–here we go–0 I don't have time for this. Here it is. I don't know what you're doing. We're going on an adventure! NO. I. Cant. Enjoy. Anything. WELCOME TO HOLLYWOOD. I hate this. My creativity had become merciless–inspiration pouring from the world as if all that it wanted wast o be collected and captured in any way I could see fit to create– What do you want? Out of life–or in this store? Out of life. Lets start with this store. A Living Lion; The eyes inside, I smiled, declined to act on impulse He'll admit, She's less complex, cause she's basic Everthemore complacent, blatantly lazy-- and crazy adorable. Whatmore could any man want? Whatmore could any man need? Whatmore could any man have; But the best friend who needed therapy, Several Plastic surgeries, A fading glass menagerie-- If she knew what that means. (Basically, they're both nobodies.) ‘What on God's awful green earth makes you think I would ever want anything to do with either of you two Losers? Beggars can't be choosers. His plan B was Annie; But she was never like me Enough to be Happy with Sonny; Let alone anybody. What is happening? Do you have an explanation of what's happening to me. Every realm of reality and possibility. This is infinity. What is this all supposed to mean to me? You can see everything and nothing; You can be anything. So what would that mean? What does it mean to you? That Love is Love, then. I've been half of a wide-open bleeding heart, Since the Goddamn start of it. He started it, Or someone did I didn't ever ask for it I was only ever always on the dancefloor when it mattered. I was always looking past him, but not ever looking at him. It was always just at random, but i'd never thought to ask him A question, Or to greet him-- I just. Adjust. They're watching us, from above. Adjust. They just don't trust us Adjust. Look what we've done, look what we've done to the planet that gave us all the light that we come from. Look, there. It appears to be ‘shimmering' What exactly is happening. The entirety of its surface is Auquous. Oceana. If i learn all the planets, In the everlasting galaxies-- And learn how to explore it… I just might get to Skrillex. I might fully need a Xanex bar if I ever see this kid in person. He's olden than you. By like, a minute. Still. I mean, really. I don't think this is ever going to work. It might not work, I mean-- What? If you had to actually-- Oh God, no; I'd be far too nervous. So what are you going to do when it comes time for festival season Run. Hide. Run + Hide. Fight or Flight; A Natural Response to Skrillex There is no natural response to Skrillex, because it's unnatural Be civil. I am I ‘m trying to figure out how to protect this species. Oh now, you're acting as if he's not human Of course he is. But i'm not. Of course. All it is, is science, a bit of misunderstanding. Experimental sorcery, possible exploitation. I'm not exploiting Skrillex. No, he's exploiting YOU. No. Wake the fuck up. No. (Stop repeating yourself) Wake up; you're being manipulated. By Skrillex? Cool. By whatever's manipulating Skrillex. Alright. Alright? You're part of a machine. So? “SO?” You're this comfortable having given your soul up to the devil. I haven't done that. Do you know what it takes to achieve that of which you so covet? Money. And? Power. Go on. Fame. So, calculate. It adds up the same either way. Skrillex isn't real. Maybe not, but Sonny Moore is-- Is, what-- Is “who”... “Who…” I love. What? --But that's all I know. That's it? Yes. Elaborate. Can't. What do you mean? Well, it goes like this: This is insanity. I've been through every wormhole, every parallel, every revolutionary subconscious thought, every world, every realm, every lifetime...and at the end of the day--or the beginning, depending-- it's really all the same question, and the same answer--over and over again; From the Beginning to the End. It is infinite. Everything is Everything. Quickly, tell me-- What, now? What goes on a Skrillex Pizza? Nothing, because it's not a thing! It is not. It isn't! Stop arguing at get to work. On what? On building Building What [The] Skrillex. How in the fuck am I supposed to do that? How in the fuck did you get to be a vegetarian? It just happened. So. So… Are you really a vegetarian? ___ Why did you do this? I didn't do this! You did this! I didn't do this! Why would I do this? How could you! I didn't! What the fuck is HE doing here? What the fuck. You need to stop this. I can't stop. What did you DO. Exactly what I had to. Shasta! Who the fuck is that? That's that bitch. I told you it was Shasta. Who the fuck is Shasta. What show is this? Where is Skrillex? FUCK SKR— Wait, what show is this? INT. THE VOID. DAY & NIGHT. I remember the first time I ever realized, I could love anyone in the world, if they needed me to—or, if they just gave me the chance. Or if I got the chance. Or, if there was a chance. And, if there was a chance, and it was supposed to happen, it always would—especially if I wanted it— But definitely, if I needed it. But, what is is “if”? And, what is “supposed”? What is it to “want”? And what's a “need”? Now I know— or at least pretend to. Because, the more it is I think I know, the actual less I feel that I actually do; None the wiser, I am what I always was— And God is, as I am. Sunni Blu becomes a popular androgynous rapper, as as s/he rises to fame is forced to take on a mre masculine persona to monetize thiher music. After releasing a series of Skrillex diss-tracks, and music aimed at OWSLA's top dogs, a feud between Skrillex and Sunni Blu, or rather their ‘teams' breaks out into the media. After Skrillex is hacked and left with his entire music collection missing, it is presumed the attack and disappearance of his hard drives was orchestrated by Sunni; After his unreleased music is leaked and the damage is deemed ‘irreparable' The Skrillex Project is forced to close, and the artist himself disappeared into obscurity-- after hearing one of his unreleased tracks used for one of Sunni Blu's hits, he( ‘*the fictional Skrillex*) secretly attends one of Sunni's concerts; Sunni Blu spots him in a large crowd and the two brawl; Skrillex with the upper hand after Sunni draws back from a bloody nose and retreats; It is revealed that the unreleased Skrillex track which was ‘gifted' to her came from the stolen collection, unbeknownst to Sunni Blu Although Sunni Blu's true identity has yet to be revealed to more than Dillon Francis, beside the publicity and management who have been helping to keep her secret; Dillon Francis and Sunni Blu are cornered by paparazzi, revealing to the public that she is, in fact, a female; As allegations arise that Sunni Blu is a transgender, rumors put a strain on Sunni Blu and Dillon Francis's collaborations… TBC. All of a sudden—or maybe, even, not so suddenly—I was Clark Kent—or whatever Superman's name was. I had been without contacts or glasses for quite some time, and had quite explicitly in one of my many letters to God—or really any holy power in a realm which might have received my charred requests—all the things I needed, and some of the things I very badly wanted—tightly bundled and wax-sealed with intention for nothing besides that of the greater good, or course, for myself or anyone else—set ablaze in the unforgiving streets of New York City, in secrecy at odd hours of the night; it hadn't been my actual intent to have to practice any magic at all, especially under the circumstances, it it seemed that someone nearly unmentionable at all, had hexed a nasty attack on my psyche—a satanic, demonic possession of the weak and feeble bodies around me, and unable to isolate in completion, I became vulnerable to such a wicked curse that it had altered my psychic morality—as one does not practition a counter-curse or attack , in my medicinal expertise, without first being provoked—as one military typically mustn't bomb another, or even it's own enemy without being first considerably attacked—and it was, at this point, indeed a terrible holy war. I pulled the stars into order I put the water to fountains, in mountaintops I don't know who I am either But you call me God, Agree, I'd not— But at least I love you I believe I was you once I'm awful sorry that I broke you I might have put the sun Just to far up and out of reach Believe me, see—I see you Doesn't matter what we try to do Unity is beautiful I live on the 8th floor I don't intend what I'm there for It doesn't feel bad though It doesn't feel bad though I don't know what you're after -Blū Do I scare you? Only a little. Huh. What? Nothing.. I hate you. ihateyou. Eventually, The Ascended Masters will intervene. They already have. Oh, Christ Almighty. He's not coming. [Answering Phone] Jesus Christ Almighty –WHERERU? I TOLD YOU I'D GET THERE GODDAMNIT. Fascinating. Do my eyes deceive me, Or Is there a secret between us: A secret illusion; Should I bury it, Or keep it neatly And unseen, Between my knees, And where you need me? Is there a thing that I should need, But never speak– I'll keep it in my sweet release To dream beliefs of evil Seen, aquamarine revines, And pulsing veins, –and stolen hearts, Not passing judgment, But just passing by To hide, to pass the time To find a high, Align in color Fly, Write another rhyme, Or wire fireflies a transfer of light, Like the eyes reflect to mine. WHY would you write this? WHY. I hate blue eyes. That's racist. No it isn't. Congratulations on making it into my aerospace, unscathed A coincidence, this is not. I have something for you. I don't need anything from you. That's because I gave you everything you need. Right. I have everything. RIght. So you should know whatever you need comes at a high price. What makes you think I need something. You said you have something for me? Yes I do. You don't seem the gift giving type. I'm not. So, what do you want from me? WHAT DO YOU WANT FROM ME? Oh. it' s another one. What's he need? Probably nothin, really Oh, it's something. This shouldn't be happening. I agree. why is this bothering me. Google it's self had deleted half my entry, which was admittedly sloppily thrown together, at nearly a full episode's length; probably for the best, as I was becoming more intolerant of my societal responsibility by the moment, and increasingly self destructive asa result. It was still chaotic; fame kept coming closer towards me and then leaping away, but not out of reach or out of sight, but rather than chase it, I merely calmly strode forward in a never-changing pace, not rushing and always careful to remain calm, even when filled with fury. I had become unrecognizably fit, chaste, and a remarkably healthy eater; I was all together well, besides in the areas of romance and sexuality of course. I was ready to pounce, but timing would be key, and patience the virtue; UH – “hehe” …I beg your pardon. “Hehe” Um… Fuck. Or “haha” “haha” … Just admit it. … Admit it already! –haha. Admit WHAT. This gets Levels. Nobody thought Patrice O Neal was a woman! I thought Patrice O Neal Was a Woman. Ah, fuck, I'm nobody. “Nobody” Is that Bob Saget? I swiped right on this dude, just cause he looked exactly like Bob Saget. Omg. Bob Saget! Fuck, that's right. EXT. THE W HOTEL, BEVERLY HILLS, DAY/ EXT . PODSHARE WESTWOOD ROOFTOP, DAY OH MY GOD, GUYS, LOOK: IT'S BOB SAGET. No it's not! Oh My God! Yeah IT IS! Fuck, really?! Bob Saget?! BOB SAGET! YO GUYS, IT'S BOB SAGET. It was, in fact, Bob Saget. Bob Saget's dead, right? Oh yeah, bud. That's it guys! No more dead celebrities! I'm coming with you! NO MORE GHOSTS. Look, I have something to tell you. UGH. COME ON. This is a weird superpower. EXT. GRAVEYARD, QUEENS, NY. DAY … … … Having fun yet? Alright! I have a question! What? When do I get to– Get to what? You know. V.O. Things I know about myself… I have a dominant personality, but am sexually submissive— I am monogamous. I know what I like — *Drill beat* Die in your sleep (Hope you die in your sleep) Die in your sleep (Betta die in your sleep) I look like a vacation. But k'm still on the clock (psyche) Countin my rocks And holdin my (unh) crotch You better watch your back —hold on your coughs Don't run in no crocs! (No!) I'm offset Now I'm upset l —I love you. Shut up, foo— I don't even love myself. …you told her?! I—yeah… What did she say?! She said “shut up, fool Been. Long time since I missed my exit HEY! [looks over slowly] I LIKE YOUR BALLS. [beat] [thumbs up] How do I not have “throwing elbows?!” BECAUSE YOURE NOT DOING YOUR JOB! Shut up, Jeff COME TO THE DARK SIDE WE HAVE COOKIES Half of Hollywood shows up at Joel's super nerdy Star Wars party The truth comes in glimpses; A shattered reality Scattered the ashes at malice, insanity— Actress, an actress; She laughs when she has to, l l l And last to leave, actually, After each practice Practice conspicuous, Conspiracy conspiracy Perspiration lyrics, affixed to the rhythms She sleeps at the regency, l Freedom for secrecy Believe, please believe me, my love l It was easy The truth comes in glimpses; A shattered reality Scattered the ashes at malice, insanity— Actress, an actress; She laughs when she has to, l l l And last to leave, actually, After each practice Practice conspicuous, Conspiracy conspiracy Perspiration lyrics, affixed to the rhythms She sleeps at the regency, l Freedom for secrecy Believe, please believe me, my love l It was easy Sunni BLU Tweety bird Mickey Mouse Betty boop I woke up like this But a little different I woke up a star Then became a planet I'm a hummingbird, but I don't like flying I might look alright, But I feel like dying I hate waking up at 5 am Just to be the first one at the gym I don't wanna do that shit again— Well, I might as well just stay up! I hate waking up at 5 am Just to take my goddamn medicine, but If I don't I'll feel like shit— Well, I might as well just stay up! I might as well just stay up! This is a recipe for disaster. No, this is a recipe for Skrillex. Oh. This is the recipe for disaster. Thanks, Dillon Francis. FOR WHAT? I remember the moment I became partially deaf. Or at least, in the synesthetic sense. Dillon Francis is delicious Come on let me lick it on a stick Give it to me like a big Meat popsicle Meat popsicle Meat popsicle Meat popsicle Sample: Willy winks* ITS WILLY WONKA Lol are we still doing the bit where the misspellings are like a, another entirely different dimension? Yeah. Haha. Yeah. —and the chocolate factory “Lick an orange. It tastes like an orange. The strawberries taste like strawberries! The snozzberries taste like snozzberries!” KATT WILLIAMS IS— WILLY WONKA. Oh hell naw! Don't look at me; I'm just a DJ, don't look at me— Shaking my head, but it don't mean nothing Don't know what you mean You don't even see me; I ain't even here! Invisibility, The MVP or VIP. It don't mean nothing Don't look at me! Shaking my head, but it don't mean nothing, Hey, Don't look at me; I'm just a DJ, man, I'. The life of the party I do know what you mean! Shaking my head, but it don't mean nothing I don't know what you mean— Hey, I ain't see nothing, nope Don't look at me I could get some work in; I got 12 minutes, God as my witness I work on my fitness And listen to — Simple Temptations and limited Intervals, Quick algorithmics, And tentative frequencies No more mentions for attention whores Like Kayla Lauren! I promise that's my last one, That bitch is boring, I'm not sorry but I'm soarin on my suorin While you're snoring on my metamorphosis Imm getting sworn in Don't look at me; I'm just a DJ, don't look at me— Shaking my head, but it don't mean nothing Don't know what you mean You don't even see me; I ain't even show up to work this week OG VIP ASAP MVP It don't mean nothing I'm just a DJ Don't look at me —- Hey Mr. wedding ring— I'll buy you a drink, You know, Like an old cream soda. Or a float, You can drink in the bucket seat Tell me, Mr. Wedding ring Do you have everything you need? I don't envy anything besides your energy and symphonies, Please Excuse this phony boner, I don't know if you're alone If this is Homer, I'm a poet, though— And not a poser Hey, Do you suppose you know the code For doors that open up; I walk a lonely road, But Frog and Toad are old And told me you'd be there to show me (Whatever) Woah Where am I supposed to go from here I'm nowhere, dear I'm Alice lost in wonderland And all her friends— Even the one in red Who wants her head (Where'd that come from) Yo! It's a real bad acid trip, I can't get a grip on reality Can't get off the grid at random, If you're being tracked By the feds and fandom Woah. I may be one of the greatest writers in history But will you remember me? My ex gets Under my skin with Champion fashion; It's in bad taste But I haven't had my own bathroom In half a millennium Im under persenium arches Sniffing cristanthimymums sampling Arsenio Hall Are you ip yet? I'm still enthralled with this story But yo! (Where's Unaavvi at) I haven't been to a show (Where's the party at) I should be gripping a pole (Where is Cardi at) But it takes all day to get back to the Bronx in the snow! Fuck New York when it's cold And it's always cold in New York When you don't know nobody And your only hobby is hobbling around in the hotel lobby Counting the robbers and gobblins A D Whitney's and Bobby's The ghosts and the zombies Everything hurts But everything heals, with time// Whatever that is; And whatever that means, It's means to an end, if you let it be So let it be But, it persists in lettering me; He becomes me in my sleep, In dreams I think I really need him, or something Or anyone, or anybody Anything, or something Anybody, anybody Excerpt From: “DJ AND CC TAKE HOLLYWOOD” Wait, CC—you're a sex addict?! I'm an everything addict! You know this! I didn't know! —Except pills; I hate pills. What? I've seen you take pills before. Case in point! Why didn't you just tell me? It doesn't exactly come up organically in conversation, Dillon. What?! We talk about sex all the time. Like, in general—but not fórreal! What the fuck! What the fuck?! Whats the difference?! If you have to ask, I feel like you're really not gonna like the answer, dog. — “WorstConversationEver” (Bong rips) Remember your dad's friend Tom? Oh my God. You fucked Tom?! NO! okay, cause— I sucked his dick while I pretended to mow the lawn! What the hell?! —and he still paid me. Whatthefuck. Yeah, fucked up. So who mowed the lawn?! He mowed his own lawn! This is the worst conversation ever. The crazy thing about this story is— There's a lot of crazy things about this story, actually. EXT. BASKETBALL COURT. DAY. Alright— shirts and skins —Shirt—Skin Shirt,Skin— Uhh! Nah. I wanna be “shirts” Why dude?! Your girl's mad hot! So?! So I know you got it goin on! Look at you! I'm mad rich! Yeah—but girls always cheat on flabby rich dudes! With hotter dudes. My girlfriend might be cheating on me! Yeah—She's not, though. How do you know? Cause I tried! Yeah. Take your shirt off. No—uh! How do you know she's just not into you! Because! He tried— HE tried! You sell out. And Andre tried— [ANDRE is tall (about 6'9 dark, and handsome] —you too, bro? [ANDRE shrugs nonchalantly] That's an NBA player— What the FUCK, YO. —and she said NO. ANDRE Yup. Shot me down. Oh really—from all the way up there?! Face it, man! You're fuckin hot! I don't like the way that sounds coming from you— Take your shirt off! Were you this aggressive with my girl?! Don't be like that… Nah— fuck you! Yo! C'mon, man— And you three! You're holding up the game getting mad over nothing. It's Hollywood! It's Beverly Hills! —Exactly my point! You're new here—you'll catch on. You know what! I'm shirts—you're skins—Game on. [SUNNI BLU goes beast mode and plays the dirtiest, most whoopass game in history—out of spite and anger of the toxic masculinity; this of course earns SUNNI BLU even more respect as a “man's man”] Later: as the owner of the clippers, sunni BLU trades “Andre” to the worst basketball team in history. SUPACREE buys DIPLO a glass house to replace the one he burned down in a crime of passion.] There, now, you'll stop throwing stones— Huh! AND. Everyone can see when you ugly cry. *humphs* Now, stop it! Is it supacree? Uh? Could be Sunni Blu. Sunni Blu is a dude— Sunni Blu is pretending to be a dude. Oh yeah, huh. Dang. Huh. Well, then. We've gotta consult The Big Book of Dillon Francis. Don't say that like it's some kind of guide book. It is a guidebook. To what?? To Dillon Francis! That's preposterous. Didn't you choose Sonny? Didn't I waste my time writing the great big book of Dillon Francis!? Touché. Might as well do something with it. I got it. THIS IS ENVIRONMENTALLY IRRESPONSIBLE. BURN IT ALL. You're gonna hurt someone's feelings. Yeah, my own. STOP TOUCHING THAT. Wait, where is— Fuck. What? Now I'm “that girl who fell in love with Skrillex” Lol, which one. Hum. The one who wrote a novel about it. Pick your poison. Rum. Not a rum and coke? No, just straight up—you know what? How much is the bottle? Uhhh. Just. [SUPACREE pours the remains of the bottle into a red solo cup.] Ugh. Come on. What! At least you're not “The Black Yoko Ono” How did you even find out about that one. Infinite what the fucks. Now the world's getting mad again, I wrote something damaging; Doors just start slamming at random, And coughing— Sounds of motorists passing, Just scrambling my brain, I'm insane, but at least I have plainly created What may be historical, one day— I've made a whole masterpiece, a symphony that easily outlives me, infinity— My body's just a body Rush a cop just got get off this awful planet; I don't want what comes with poverty and fat, I don't compete with Instagram models, And everyone does that— I'm not a catfish, facts are facts I use my camera just to document the interesting phenomena I happen to walk past; Saw Dillon Francis on a wall, and had to grant the wish he asked— But don't know what it is exactly, I'm just happening, actually— I probably need nap but now Insomniac's been tracking me; I happily allow it; I program myself with beats, So when I finally sleep, I dream in music sequences, or something— I don't know I might delete it upon listening to rampant white supremacy or privelege on repeat, But that's just me, Forgetting I'm the one in trouble, On the run, without a family So perception is reality, and mine is badly damaged— Damn Pasquale again, I had to re-decipher all the messages transmitted from imaginary friends, Collecting images in infrared *gasp* Okay, just—breathe… I can't! I have to wear a mask! It's mandatory—so is being black, I have to! But I'm not a rapper! Maybe I should talk to Chance, Or Marshall Mathers: They might have to answer To the questions that I can't afford to ask This automatic writing might just be the most Goddamned advanced evidence of intelligent inhabitants in other dimensions, or other planets Or all of the above, Or maybe just of Dillon Francis using magic, Which he got from— Oh, no, here it comes SK— Fuck this. Fuck this mother—FAWN. Are we out of F*cks, then? I floppin' guess! I thought you loved him. It is what it is. What is it? INFI— THE END. INFINITI! ...yes, mom? GET IN HERE, Huh? Don't say “huh”. Okay, what? Don't say “what” … … … ...welll, what do you want? What is this? *shrugs* INFINITY [ooh, with a ‘Y' that's how you know mom's angry this time] *COUGHS* Betcha his photographer's in love with him. Which one has the VooDoo Doll? There's a Skrillex VooDoo Doll? It's technically ‘Sonny' Aww. You'd be surprised at the shit these girls will— INFINITY. WHAT. What is THIS?! It's just—Skrillex. AFH. Now you're FUCKED. I thought we were out of FUCKS. That was FAUX. Awww: I see what you did there. Am I done now? What does Dillon Francis want?! —don't answer that. [whispering in ear.] That's not possible So. I shifted a consciousness into this rock. Why would—why? For good luck. Oh, this is a problem, But it turns out. HUH. Damn. I'm on one, I have blue balls, This is not fun. This is not fun. This is not fun. Okay; now you're done. So, that's it--? You really want to ride this Sinking Ship? If that's what this is, then I guess that says it. Says…? Says “I just bought a ticket to Titanic at Bass Canyon.” Is that where you bought it? Is it? Why would you give yourself in, for him? (For Anyone?) In. (Psh) I gave myself out. Out? Look at you. Look at me. I'd rather not. You know what it is You know what it is— You know what it is That's the business Comin in hot, like a chicken wing This ain't Toy Story—got no friend in me, You feelin me? Cold as Minnesota, I'm the ice queen Nice bling— Hollywood should buy this bitch a wedding ring Amohetemime Trick, you're a half, I'm the whole thing Whole Foods market, gotta own me No mink coat, I'm a vegan, Hocus Pocus, I'm three witches Okay, from the top Hello? This is Hollywood calling; We want the festival project We just wrote up the contract Come get your deposit: You're nominated for an Oscar Your Star On The Walk looks Awesome it's On Us Yeah? That's what's up I'll come up I'll come up I'll come up Say what's up That's my shite; I'm rep in the festival project Ya'll like “what's that?” I'll tel you all about it,—that's Coming up next Oh yeah, Oh yeah Tune in I'm On Welcome to your Hollywood life The good life Good life Welcome to the Hollywood life That's right That's right Welcome to your Hollywood life The good life Good life Welcome to the Hollywood life That's right That's right They call me young Hollywood, They robbed me good in Santa Monica And I so I got no address yet; But I'm coming up like one direction I just checked my reflection like: Mirror mirror on the wall I gotta go Hollywood's callin And I don't do this often Only when o bless the red carpet Comin in hot, like a chicken wing Call me Toy Story— got a friend in me, You feelin me? On the big screen livin out my dreams, I wrote my scenes, the Hollywood life: I neee I ride by On a tomeline I write, I like My nice things. The life I lead, Is ritghteous, I defy my means Applied IT, I might be AI, Fine my me; Cause all I see Is light I like, And I'm liking my Hollywood life, I think. Nice bling— Hollywood should buy this bitch a wedding ring Amohetemime Trick, you're a half, I'm the whole thing Whole Foods market, gotta own me No mink coat, I'm a vegan, Hocus Pocus, I'm three witches It's just some Hollywood shit Isn't it fabulous This is some Hollywood shiy Isn't it fabulous Comin in hot, like a chicken wing This ain't Toy Story—got no friend in me, You feelin me? Cold as Minnesota, I'm the ice queen Nice bling— Hollywood should buy this bitch a wedding ring Amohetemime Trick, you're a half, I'm the whole thing Whole Foods market, gotta own me No mink coat, I'm a vegan, Hocus Pocus, I'm three witches You know what it is You know what it is— You know what it is That's the business One door close. Then another door opens So sick flow, go home with a cold then Woah, Hoe—cold like some snow boots Pants so big, I can parachute PARACHUTE! Hoes look fake, like a blow up doll Harlem shake, i'm bout to blow up ya'll SAM ASH. HOLLYWOOD, CALIFORNIA. DAY. Do you have any Jog Wheels? Beg your pardon? Uh, Jog Wheels. “Jog Wheels” Yeah, you know, like (imitates DJ scratching) Oh, you mean these? (Entire room of DJ controllers) Yeah, but just–this (points to Jog Wheel) Oh, “Jog Wheels…” Yes. Jog Wheels. …Just “Jog Wheels?” …yes. No. [Leaving store with frustrated infuriation] AGH. BEFORE: Oh my God! We've been robbed! WHAT! OH MY GOD! WHAT! WHAT'D THEY TAKE?! – Have you tried Guitar Center? THEY TOOK MY JOG WHEELS. Bitch you mad? Mad at what? I'm still making money; I don't give a fuck Get my bag; Count it up I'm a dog— And you know I like it rough (Ruff ruff ruff) Where you from? Where you hood at? Keep it clsssy But I'm acting like a hood rat I'm a playa I got boss racks Call me north Cause I'm pointed where the moss at (Money) I am from Los Angeles I got all these fans and stuff I smoke on dat tangle I be at PINK buying bras n stuff I still shop at hollister The Bronx ain't got no Rosses Or hot topics But I bought this floss To drop it like a thot n stuff Bitch you mad? Mad at what? I'm still making money; I don't give a fuck Get my bag; Count it up I'm a dog— And you know I like it rough (Ruff ruff ruff) I show up Play some ratchet music I show up Play some ratchet music. In the booth I'm eating waffles. Had to force quit my serato Key: F It's such a wonderful feeling– leaving, release, sweet relief, Slowly bleeding out Dreaming, in peace With no reason to grieve–finallly– Freedom Mm-hmm mm-hmm Mmm-hmmm __ I'm so LA for no reason. Souls— So long, So gone, Almost The time has come to walk The time has come again to rise, Rise up The time has come to walk, come on The time that's come is ours, From now on Give me time to walk, An Hour or so A trot, the fox Time to run An hour or nothing The founder of the establishment The Tower of Babel Another arrangement The flounder, the fox, the horse Come one, come all, Come one, come now The walk or a run A gallop, or trot— the horse A crown for a gallon of water A gallon of water A gallon of water I know who you are my son; Come one, come all Come mother, come father Come dog, and come brother A sister, another All for a walk in the park I lost it All for a gallon of water A gallon of water Souls— So long, So gone, Almost The time has come to walk The time has come again to rise, Rise up The time has come to walk, come on The time that's come is ours, From now on Sonny left you out in the cold Sonny doesn't know what to do Sonny gotta very old soul, so Sonny's done away with the truth Sonny didn't open any doors Sonny's always sitting in the booth Sonny isn't coming for you, poor Sonny's so in love with Sunni Blu So be Sunni Blu So be Sunni Blu You'll see Sonny soon The universe is split into two, you know Who are you? (I told you) What do you do? (I just want to make music) So you do Don't go assuming you're consumed, dude Just renew You're a renewable Don't be confused if confucius say “Hey, just play to the tune “ Get a mop and a broom And a mic and a boom Rent a room somewhere for a month or two Just don't be stupid Cupid's run out of room So Sonny's just a man that I love Sonny means less, but he does too much Sonny's just human Sonny's got proof that Once you've got money, It's all for amusement Just be Sunni Blu, kid I should have kissed him. Flashback: Montage—Season 6 V.O. I have a massive headache. I can't stop thinking about Dillon Francis. I'm hungry but haven't been to the gym and don't want to risk getting fat; All my extra smalls fit, but my butt is getting bigger. My new job's alright, but I feel like a loser. LA broke is better than regular broke, but it would be nice not to be in debt. I feel like I need a hug or a really good fuck or maybe both and then a cuddle. I can't sleep and I hate all my roommates for just existing. I think I might be getting sick just from being around other people too much. I spent like $200 on protein and left almost all of it in Las Vegas. LA Fitness sucks but it's better than nothing; I really miss Equinox. It doesn't seem like anybody really cares about me. I'm Lonely all of a sudden. I've really been craving pancakes. A lot. Sometimes it seems like everything I've written is just a waste of time. I can't stop thinking about sex. Sometimes I think about sex with Dillon Francis. Skrillex isn't real. Nothing I seem to do adds up. I'm a loser. I keep checking my emails like something is going to change. Sometimes I feel like I'm about to be famous— I'm still hungry and thinking about a late night walk to LA Cafe; I really like their tater tots. I miss being a mom. Still thinking about LA CAFE but I already had Tocya Orgánica because the juice bar was closed when I got off work. I just want someone to love me. I thought I sold my soul but I still need love so I know it's still in there somewhere. I literally spend every day working just to pay for a room to share with four people. I almost had confidence before the Australian man came along. It's weird to think about how everything I've written is just sitting in my Google documents doing nothing. All the jobs I actually want to do are for people with beautiful bodies and mine is disgusting. There's No Rick and Morty with no Justin Roiland. There's No Pirates of The Caribbean with No Johnny Depp. There's no room for reality in Hollywood. {Drill Music Playing} EXT. DOWNTOWN LOS ANGELES. NIGHT DRAKE BELL enters the SMOKE SHOP Enter The Multiverse L E G E N D S The Legend of… “Looking Back” All of a sudden—or maybe, even, not so suddenly—I was Clark Kent—or whatever Superman's name was. I had been without contacts or glasses for quite some time, and had quite explicitly in one of my many letters to God—or really any holy power in a realm which might have received my charred requests—all the things I needed, and some of the things I very badly wanted—tightly bundled and wax-sealed with intention for nothing besides that of the greater good, or course, for myself or anyone else—set ablaze in the unforgiving streets of New York City, in secrecy at odd hours of the night; it hadn't been my actual intent to have to practice any magic at all, especially under the circumstances, and it seemed that someone nearly unmentionable at all, had hexed a nasty attack on my psyche—a satanic, demonic possession of the weak and feeble bodies around me, and unable to isolate in completion, I had become vulnerable to such a wicked curse that it had altered my psychic morality—as one does not practition a counter-curse or attack, in my own medicinal expertise, without first being provoked—as one military typically mustn't bomb another, or even it's own enemy without being first considerably attacked—and it was, at this point, indeed a terrible holy war. I had at the very least been able to return to regular gym sessions, though still not training as thoroughly as before; I had allowed myself to gain quite a bit of weight over the period of just a couple weeks, eating for the most part what I wanted out of comfort, especially having nearly starved and defaulted into severe malnutrition after eating nothing but bananas for a period which lasted something like three weeks—and without adequate protein intake, I had l lost quite a bit of muscle, not that, for the most part, the muscles that I had been building weren't there—in fact, I found myself, at least as of late, looking like any retired or untrained athlete that had let themselves gain atop the muscle they had built—fat now sitting on top of my larger muscles and making the weight gain look and feel even more hideous, and after several days of at least regular lifting and sauna, I still didn't feel like running, which would alleviate most of the gain mo

I can't fall for this again— Another rich and handsome man— A dream he wants to be my friend A dream he wants to hold my hand Oh look, Another dance for anthem Look, I'm just another fan No, I can't fall for this again —but they would go against the plan A simple programming error, Lips the color of a pomagranite Circle on the palm, And then , of course, We press the center And look, here we are again Another life, Another love A new wife— Another husband Honest? I'm just good with fucking —aha I just want to fuck you I got love, but what it good for Look at me, or look at nothing! Look, I'm just good with fucking Check the news for new engagements Fucking sick and fucking tragic Nothing more than actors, DJs, drinks and addicts Look, I'm just a happy accident— I still hate Dillon Francis And I never wanted Skrillex: That shit never even happened! Have you had enough yet?! Carrot cake does sound good Ten karat long engagement ring— Is that a lot? I'm just a homeless Look, I'm just another DJ Some fake model stole it Some would call it occult Magic —honest? I just want some dick, man Fuck it —aha I just want to fuck you I got love, but what it good for Look at me, or look at nothing! Look, I'm just good with fucking You know why you like me?! Yes, I know why I like you— Cause I'm rich! —no, actually—it's because you're smart. Where in the fuck are you going? I don't know yet. Well, know faster—we have company. Fuck. Destroy every bit of evidence. Ok. —and make sure nobody sees you. Yeah, right! YO. Why the fuck are you here, Timmy? I told you, I'm not Timmy. I don't give a fuck who you are—where's my money? It's— it's on the way, I promise. I'm don't take well tk promises, Timmy. What do you take well to? Money. FUCK. What! FUCK, FUCK, FUCK! What?! We're too late, she's gone! Goddammit. —She was already here! FUCK. FUCK. FUCK! >>> FUCK! How do you know? —there's glitter, everywhere. Is it gone? It's gone? ALL OF IT. TIMMY TRUMPET plays a SKRILLEX. Etto, Timmy?! Oh shit, another Timmy. That's weird. I was just thinking he about Skrillex. Why. Timmy, put a shirt on. That's it. What. You can't be hot and play the trumpet. Why. One thing's gotta go. THE DEVIL takes away Timmy Trumpet's ability to play the trumpet. WHAT. Can't have both. Well, I don't really need both now, do I? When I'm in a tough spot I have to listen to deadmau5 —something about the precision and frequencies out my brain somewhere between auropilot and dead space. I don't know. I've done just about everything you can think of listening to deadmau5. Almost. But, I noticed— Working out to deadmau5 is strange. It puts me in some kind of vibration where people notice me— Not just notice me. People are suddenly “impressed” with whatever it is I'm doing. And it's usually something regular as fuck— I'm just doing it to deadmau5. And for some reason, people are like “Wooooow!!” Okay, whatever. I used to work out to Skrillex. Actually. I used to work out to only Skrillex. I don't know if its just because I was fat, or cause I liked Skrillex. Now its like running a serrated knife up my spine. I started to figure out I was kind of famou— Kind of— When I showed up at the gym and Skrillex songs kept coming on I'm like “This is what I get for doing nothing but free trials” But hey, You try finding a gym in the shitty areas of New York worth paying for. It's very hard. The crazy thing about this story is— There's a lot of crazy things about this story, actually. EXT. BASKETBALL COURT. DAY. Alright— shirts and skins —Shirt—Skin Shirt,Skin— Uhh! Nah. I wanna be “shirts” Why dude?! Your girl's mad hot! So?! So I know you got it goin on! Look at you! I'm mad rich! Yeah—but girls always cheat on flabby rich dudes! With hotter dudes. My girlfriend might be cheating on me! Yeah—She's not, though. How do you know? Cause I tried! Yeah. Take your shirt off. No—uh! How do you know she's just not into you! Because! He tried— HE tried! You sell out. And Andre tried— [ANDRE is tall (about 6'9 dark, and handsome] —you too, bro? [ANDRE shrugs nonchalantly] That's an NBA player— What the FUCK, YO. —and she said NO. ANDRE Yup. Shot me down. Oh really—from all the way up there?! Face it, man! You're fuckin hot! I don't like the way that sounds coming from you— Take your shirt off! Were you this aggressive with my girl?! Don't be like that… Nah— fuck you! Yo! C'mon, man— And you three! You're holding up the game getting mad over nothing. It's Hollywood! It's Beverly Hills! —Exactly my point! You're new here—you'll catch on. You know what! I'm shirts—you're skins—Game on. [SUNNI BLU goes beast mode and plays the dirtiest, most whoopass game in history—out of spite and anger of the toxic masculinity; this of course earns SUNNI BLU even more respect as a “man's man”] Later: as the owner of the clippers, sunni BLU trades “Andre” to the worst basketball team in history. For, As soon as the moon is full, She also begins to wane— And as sure as we are to shine, We also fade away I had one slice of red velvet cake, one slice of cheesecake—which of course only reminded me of Sonny Moore—the decadent, delicious red velvet—and Dillon Francis—the spiced and ecclectic trademark carrot cake—if only not to sooty the pain of joe much I wanted both of them, but probably didn't need them—how I craved them so, but they probably weren't good for me, nor would they last— —but they would both be delicious, anyhow. The seagull said. “To the sea, we go!” Overhead, he flies As the day goes by me Idly, I wait— I could take a ride, But i'd rather be By myself, By my… INT. EMPIRE ENPANADAS. NIGHT You gonna order? What you got? Empanadas. Just empanadas? —Yeah. Okay, that's weird. Lol the only thing funny about this scene is that their New York accents are so atrociously heavy. Right. —weird. INT. SUBWAY STATION. DAY. Sunni BLU is passed out in the subway station. Ew… Yeah, my god. Wait—is that— —sunni?! SUNNI drunkenly groans. Sunni! Get up! Ughhhh. What are you doing?! I'm drunk. I know that. You're always drunk. Yeah. What are you doing here. What. In the subway. I do this sometimes. What. For what?! You never know who you're gonna meet. In the subway On the floor?! YeH! I met R- Kelly down here! What! When was this Not at this station, though, but yeah. To think, It was all just an awful game, to make you write more songs— And in the end, if you don't make the cut They just make you kill yourself, anyway. Love isn't real, but money is; And all men want is money, So they can buy the love— And all women want is love— But it has to come with money Or it all just falls apart It all just falls apart It all just falls apart “Illuminatus”, Open, close Illuminaudio, for starters Cross a crucifix for sons, and wanted daughters What's a brother to a sister— Or a mother to a father? What's a stop sign to a car, If no one's driving? In the end, they kill you off In the end, they kill you off With every cough, they kill you off— But there's always another Who wants to be a star— Or just The mother of his child, Maybe both Genetic lotto luck —the cut off. Agatha… A far cry, out into the distance–a wind, almost a whisper; A lover, long gone and almost since forgotten, unseen since the very dawn of time and first ever glimpse of light– …We Meet Again. FUCK. WHAT IS THIS. I know, man. FUCK. Fuck. Well, are you gonna tell this story or not? This isn't possible. It is possible. This isn't happening. – This dude has a radio tower in his front yard. That's his front yard?! I fucking guess. What is that. That's a satilite. Nice. Yep. Alright, you son of a bitch. Hey! My mom's nice! Not that nice–bringing you here. How do you know that's how I got here? Exactly my point. [cocks pistol slowly.] You're dead, mouse. OH. I GET IT. kill that motherfucker. Wait. Hold up. Hold the phone! Holding. How did we get to this point? I mean– a few ways. What are you watching. SHH. Wedon'tknow. SHHH. OK! SHHHHHHH! IT' getting good. Ya. It's getting deeper. So much deeper. WAit. … Who are you? I'm a fan. No. How did you get in my house? It's my house. It's– –no. No, it's not. YEs. this is my house. No. What. GEt out. SHH. What. DUde– No. Ze show is on and it is getting one deeper. Be quiet. IT's getting two deeper. –like nine deeper. SHHH. Oh, I get it. She really wants to fuck Dillon Francis. #FuckDillonFrancis Uh, no– I already did that. Gross. Excuse me. You are excused! I mean, I beg your pardon. Please, don't beg. Er, uh– Could you repeat that last part? Woah, this gets multidimensional as fuck. I have a time machine. Are there any loopholes? There are loopholes. THere better be loopholes. Sorry, we're out. GodDAMMIT. What. I was really looking forward to those loopholes. Well, they're gone. FUCK. HEre, have some Oh-Noh's. I don't want– Just SHUT UP and EAT YOUR CEREAL. Don't worry–I'm still Team Skrillex. There are TEAMS?! Oh, yeah, bro. Oh, so–it is a love story. I don't think that's what this is. I'M GONNA MURDER YOU. Ok. WITH MY DICK. A-1. There's something I need to tell you. What. But i'm sworn to secrecy Then how am I supposed to– Just–shh– follow my lead. “The Magic Effect.” Did it work? Don't know yet. You nutted to this girl 36 times in the last 20 Calendar days. Ok… 36 Times. One Girl. 20 Days. …What's your point. This is ferocious. I have your entire internet history. All of it? Oh yes. All of it. Welp. Well. THat's it for me. I've had enough. There's no Skrillex Deepfake. Aw. that sux. Why would you look at this? …why not, though? You're a disturbed man. I'm pretty regular. REGULR TO WHO? *shrugs* Me, I guess. TURN THIS OFF. I can't take it anymore. Whatever happened to the– SHHH. Fuck. I'm so wasted. So what do you think is gonna happen? Listen. I have a lot to get through. THis is all just nonsense. I think we're avoiding some heavy subjects, here. Well, there are a lot of discrepancies. Kill yourself. I just did. Kill yourself–again. I–GodDAMMIT. Just do it. NO. Come on. Congratulations, you got the job! Yes! Thank you! …What's the job? I need you to get the fuck out of here in the next five seconds–before I blow my head off, and take you with me. Don't do that. Five… Yo, i'm serious. Four… Jesus Christ, dude. YOu don't think this hits a little close to home. Home? what is home? For the Record, Skrillex, Dillon Francis, and Deadmau5 respectively are all getting their dicks sucked on yachts right now in some foreign exotic country– You're not wrong. That is correct. Standard music business. And People are living in tents under bridges. I'm just saying. If you think this project is reckless and bizarre, check your own simulation. So. So. Where were we? Somewhere between blowing our heads off and getting our dicks sucked? I'm sure there's a striking correlation somewhere. ‘My Candle Burns At Both Ends…' Oh, More Occult Magic God Bless The Illuminati GOD I Am The Illuminati Glad that's settled. Three. Goddamit, don't do this. Two– [cocks pistol] Why just pistols. Cause shotguns are messy– –and for dramatic effect; I love that sound. [the other party quickly removes his handgun from his waistband, shooting the other man and then himself quickly; They now both lay dead.] How do I write this Just write it. I need adderall. You need Jesus. By goD, youre right. [iPhone] What are you doing? Calling on Jesus. Are you serious. He's the plug. Ugh. I need adderall. What did I do?! YOu know what you did. ∆ Well, alright then. ∆ Must be something. ∆ I got it. “The Legend of Supacree” L E G E N D S “Tales of A Superstar DJ” To do: Cut Freaky Friday 001 Cut Throwback Thursday 001 Cut SOM III Part I {God Is God] Part II [Clockwork] –Pull 212 Remix It's far beyond my control I get out of my head and into my soul In one ear, never out the other If the wind blew down your door, How would I call for you? —Through her, I suppose And the silk of her hair, Or the satin of her dress, — Oh, it's almost admissible, Surely admirable, Worth a smile or not, That all the world is words, In the end, As I tear down my worlds, and start over from One And I've already stopped enough once for today, I think Surely, what you'd like is just The time to get it all to nothing (Never had I wanted it or needed it) The phone was ringing, But I'll never be off the hook again, If you look for the proper way to move forward, You'll never find it, Especially looking behind you (Always looking behind you— Head in the past Just like you It's just like me, Too, To sit down and decide a whole song about you While taking it all down. I'm never distraught with the thoughts of a stranger, Oh, on the contrary; You should be mad about battle, But I'm all for the veterans and And never off if we were not at war with one another, but Then again, That's all we've ever done It would be Devastating To even think of Something more clever “Clever and splendiferous confectionary efforts, Just spectacular concessions my dear; I'll have another.” Hadn't I deciphered once or twice the rhyme for riddles down to dollars and cents? I did, I thought, once. I never hindered Heaven from pondering over my shoulder once or twice upon a full lit moon, which under I predicted my own fortune. Once— or twice, but— Nevermind, or nothing; Indifference, for instance, instantly inscessent ancestral insimination incriminating risidual visuals uhh— —From the festival. Right. The festival project. [—Parallels.—] GOD: So you want to be The “Glass Animals” *nods* Glass Animals. That's what I said. Glass Animals There's no “The” Context. Ok. So–”Glass Animals” *nods* Are you sure you don't want to be made of something else? *nods* *shrugs* Okayy. Glas Animals. I'm lost, But don't remind me Running out of time But time can't find me Open up my eye 10 times in 9 days I should probably fall away Back to the bay, No baby, don't cry No baby, don't cry No baby, don't cry [Midnight Request Line.] Sleek black corvette. Not a dent, not a scratch And I am feeling better, Since you asked What a warm and welcome Pleasant, wet suprise What do I owe you the—time I guess it made me smile for awhile, now I'm sad again— Wow, that was quick… Only took a second, but don't mind my arrogance ‘—I play this and it puts me in a trance.' I want to dance with you I hope someone holds my hand like that, one day Where are you taking me? “Away, my dear, away…”, he's saying… I lie awake midday and taking shallow breaths, I drift away A weapon for my empathy, [Midnight Request Line.] I have no idea what happened. ‘Ambiguous Ambitions - The Crossing ‘ A shiver up my spine I don't really mind, I'm still trying to find the word for it— But tongue in cheek it is That's—if it fits You but me once, And I liked it Come bite me twice If you buy it; Alright, Ryan—where is it? Where is what? You know what I'm talking about. I don't know anything! “Ryan Remembers Everything” Goddamn it, wake up. I need silence. GET UP, GODDAMNIT. Okay— Okay— —I just need you to tell me where it is— Where what is?! I don't think this is very funny. This got serious. Ouch. I don't want to watch TV anymore ever again. I really wish you'd tell me Oh, you wish? Watch this. I'm sorry, Ryan. Hello. I—hello. I'll have a tall order of whatever's in that box. You want what's in that box? Yessir. What is happening? I dunno. I'm afraid that's going to be a problem. *gasp* can we have ninjas? *NINJAS* NINJA FIGHT. —oh sht rly. *lmfao* Sometimes i'm set in my ways, Sometimes days go by—days, In the blink of an eye, Ever since I decided, I might have had love with you. I think we have some things to figure out, about it —it being ourselves, And washing my hands never felt so right In my life Somebody told me the stars in the sky were spirit guides, And it stuck, I'm up all night, But i'm the only star I see In New York City Don't look up to see me— Don't look up to me please, kid, really I mean, why, my baby? I mean, Hi lady— You so fly tonight, just my delight I — Like the way I look by you I— You know, If I sit in the city every night like this, And write, It just might Be the end of me Be the end of me Be the end of me You know, If I did get the limelight, Right on time to soothe and Satiate my need to be an idol LC Even this late in life, Like— —fuck ‘8I just want him to like me' I shouldn't even think about Superstardom like that, But I'll be right back, I gotta get the rabbit out the White hat, What a habit to have, huh What an idea that we might all get along Or a lot done Or be better off alone Than just to fuck off And write another song— Because the audience will like it But we're all over it; It's all done, isn't it? “The Running Game” I don't know what you want to hear from me. How about, “I'm sorry.” Ok, I'm sorry. You don't do much, do you? I guess I don't. Sabotage//Salvation Idk what this is supposed to mean. This is my demise. You're completely a ticking time bomb. You're not wrong. Salvation, from the doldrums. A sound to soothe my soul, I sink beneath you, South and under smoky water Open mouth, and barely thought of, Although often, Walk or waltz, would I To fall, my love, So becoming of a flower; forth and outward over fountains; Leaps and bounds, Of course– Well, this is dope af. What are you doing. What. What happened. THis is really good. So. So, i gotta turn this one off now– And listen to that one insead. All the time? Yeah. Oh. For, like ever..? Well, no. I gotta put it in the vault. Noooh. Yes. YEs. Yes. Forever. FOrever, no, for now– yes. That could be almost forever. Yeah. Almost. “Almost Invisible.” Take out my eyes, for now (If i could, would you want them) To beg or to barter for, I offer them up, as Ritual sacrifice (it's just a) Ritual Sacrifice. These two eyes. __ He was the boy who owned the world; Hailing from the land of a thousand suns, He said, “I'll give you a dozen roses, honey, If all you ever do is, Smile for me, So, go ahead, Smile for a dozen roses or more,” And the irony is that she did it– Not for the roses, –but for the attention. (Just for the attention.) It was she who birthed the worlds; Building the land of a thousands suns, She said I'll give you a dozen horses, “If you could just– Pick the winning one” And the irony is, that he did it– Because he loved horses, And now he had twelve of them! (--And any one could be the winning one, no matter what she does; He's got a dozen of em, Anyway.) Fuck. What. Well, that went off the deep end. Fuck. Well, this just got dark. This guy comes off your blacklist tonight. No, this person Guy. PErson. Most certainly does not. I promise if I love a=a=A=a What is this That's a making no complese sense equation. Think about it in a multidimensional– Oh, that makes total sense. Just remember, when using this– this has been around for a really long time. It's been A long time. I died in your bed, But woke up in your arms; Oh when you love, love– Love me harder, Love me harder– Oh, baby when you love, love me harder Love me harder Love//Love Me Harder Love//Love Me Harder Love//Love//Love Love Me Harder Love//Love Me Harder Love//Love//Love Love Me Harder I woke up in your bed, And then died in your arms; It was a work of art, I suppose What we were, or are (Or aspire to be.) Please. Give me your iPhone. No! No? (Takes I phone.) Is there a reason you don't want me having this? …no. No? —it's full of stuff. “Stuff.” Yes. It's— “Stuff.” Yes. — —and things. I know. Look. We had a deal. We had no “deal” We had a deal. This train just goes on forever, you know; Whether you're on, or off it— So get off, and back on at the wrong stop Once, if not just for the discovery Of another supermarket, Where you shop for strawberries and Groceries Good flex, God; I got a gang of em I'm gonna explain it as straight as it gets Sometimes, You just got to know where to go If you don't trust your gut, You'll just never get, Never get it right. Alright, alright, I started it Alright, right— I gotta get it right, I gotta get ; I'm the worst at introductions Oh and, So bad at Goodbyes Oh, why'd you have to leave me by my idol Why, Why'd you have to lead me by my eyes By my eyes God, I love the way I love the way, I love the way you Love me God, I love The way you The way you Love me You forgot about me, didn't you? You forgot all about me You forgot all about it— All about it Al about it It's not the same, anymore Since you gave it a name, is it? There's nothing I can do To help me, help you This is all I can do, To help me, love you I have to remove you; I have to remove you In a room— Full of beauty— In a world, Full of woes I lose the last dose of you, on my tongue Nobody ever wanted it, like I do— Like I do I lose the last dose of you on my tongue, And I'm all full of love again; I never saw anything like it, I was a modem, still plugged into the wall An anonymous post partum unremarkable Post-party proclamations and eternal damnation for ordering breakfast Evading transportation authorities Unworried the informant sleeping under me Oh, Now she wants to song— Oh, look— And now, she has a song to sing A point to make, A wrong to ring; The man she brings along Is bad for her Oh, she's gotta work (She loves to work, She's got to work it) What kills her makes her stronger What doesn't kill her makes her stronger All she does is Carry on And Carry on And Carry on. “Mrs Sheffield left flushing queens, for this.” Mrs Sheffield left Flushing, Queens, for this?! Mrs Sheffield left Flushing, Queens for this! Mrs, Sheffield! -1flushing queens, fah ‘dis. Very well worth it, I got all the way to brooklyn And way beyond my means for this It's well outta my means. It's out of my hands, now. That boy called you “grandpa” How is it all over? When I bet to God I was, Just in your lap at this party, And you were under me slippin on some sort of Lager or Something Weren't you? Yeah, I was just there, too I was just there, too— I was just there, too— Oh, now she has a song… All of a sudden.— But it's not all of a sudden at all It's not all of a sudden There's nothing, is there? Oh, There's something, surely I went to bed late; But I'm getting up early. I see the way he looks at me— —take it easy, baby We could have the whole room waiting Like a stoner at a stop sign My bad, My eyes lie to me All the time Driving me mad Telling me I want you inside me My bad My bad Well, I want you in my bed But I haven't had one yet I'm thinking Purple Mattress; Or is that mids, to you kids Like Timmy ho's Or my mustang civic It's a custom, yeah Nobody has it yet It's a hybrid Like I am —I am a bit off subject, now (My bad) We never had sex in my bathroom (That was your house) I took a mouse to the mountain (My bad) My writing is getting more Acid-centric, Lysergic acid diethylamide; I didn't buy any, But I haven't the need anymore, Really I just wake up like this: That is, when I wake up (I have long nights, kids) My bad I want to see you very briefly Without your briefs, You know what I mean? Me neither— Sexual delinquency in meditated frequencies Repeat this sequence I keep my deepest secrets Where I need it Right up my slime, Where my spleen is— Dreamed it, and I haven't cleaned since (Or dreamed since) In this Endless emission, Ignition sequence begins When The Lean splits Under the blood moon; An eclipse. I drift off a lot— Just thinking of your penis My daydreams are not very safe for the public I think they're X-rated or worse, Even thinking of you as a person, Or worse: As my husband once, as my lover— Lovers have all the fun, anyway Hm All the things that I'd do to you After you put me through— What are you looking for, exactly? A synchronicity. Just any synchronicity? There's no such thing as “just any” synchronicity. Does “laying low” mean nothing to you? I'm laying low! On a city tour?! It's a big city! [From Afar] IS THAT HER? Aw, fuck. Well, well, well–here we go–0 I don't have time for this. Here it is. I don't know what you're doing. We're going on an adventure! NO. I. Cant. Enjoy. Anything. WELCOME TO HOLLYWOOD. I hate this. My creativity had become merciless–inspiration pouring from the world as if all that it wanted wast o be collected and captured in any way I could see fit to create– What do you want? Out of life–or in this store? Out of life. Lets start with this store. A Living Lion; The eyes inside, I smiled, declined to act on impulse He'll admit, She's less complex, cause she's basic Everthemore complacent, blatantly lazy-- and crazy adorable. Whatmore could any man want? Whatmore could any man need? Whatmore could any man have; But the best friend who needed therapy, Several Plastic surgeries, A fading glass menagerie-- If she knew what that means. (Basically, they're both nobodies.) ‘What on God's awful green earth makes you think I would ever want anything to do with either of you two Losers? Beggars can't be choosers. His plan B was Annie; But she was never like me Enough to be Happy with Sonny; Let alone anybody. What is happening? Do you have an explanation of what's happening to me. Every realm of reality and possibility. This is infinity. What is this all supposed to mean to me? You can see everything and nothing; You can be anything. So what would that mean? What does it mean to you? That Love is Love, then. I've been half of a wide-open bleeding heart, Since the Goddamn start of it. He started it, Or someone did I didn't ever ask for it I was only ever always on the dancefloor when it mattered. I was always looking past him, but not ever looking at him. It was always just at random, but i'd never thought to ask him A question, Or to greet him-- I just. Adjust. They're watching us, from above. Adjust. They just don't trust us Adjust. Look what we've done, look what we've done to the planet that gave us all the light that we come from. Look, there. It appears to be ‘shimmering' What exactly is happening. The entirety of its surface is Auquous. Oceana. If i learn all the planets, In the everlasting galaxies-- And learn how to explore it… I just might get to Skrillex. I might fully need a Xanex bar if I ever see this kid in person. He's olden than you. By like, a minute. Still. I mean, really. I don't think this is ever going to work. It might not work, I mean-- What? If you had to actually-- Oh God, no; I'd be far too nervous. So what are you going to do when it comes time for festival season Run. Hide. Run + Hide. Fight or Flight; A Natural Response to Skrillex There is no natural response to Skrillex, because it's unnatural Be civil. I am I ‘m trying to figure out how to protect this species. Oh now, you're acting as if he's not human Of course he is. But i'm not. Of course. All it is, is science, a bit of misunderstanding. Experimental sorcery, possible exploitation. I'm not exploiting Skrillex. No, he's exploiting YOU. No. Wake the fuck up. No. (Stop repeating yourself) Wake up; you're being manipulated. By Skrillex? Cool. By whatever's manipulating Skrillex. Alright. Alright? You're part of a machine. So? “SO?” You're this comfortable having given your soul up to the devil. I haven't done that. Do you know what it takes to achieve that of which you so covet? Money. And? Power. Go on. Fame. So, calculate. It adds up the same either way. Skrillex isn't real. Maybe not, but Sonny Moore is-- Is, what-- Is “who”... “Who…” I love. What? --But that's all I know. That's it? Yes. Elaborate. Can't. What do you mean? Well, it goes like this: This is insanity. I've been through every wormhole, every parallel, every revolutionary subconscious thought, every world, every realm, every lifetime...and at the end of the day--or the beginning, depending-- it's really all the same question, and the same answer--over and over again; From the Beginning to the End. It is infinite. Everything is Everything. Quickly, tell me-- What, now? What goes on a Skrillex Pizza? Nothing, because it's not a thing! It is not. It isn't! Stop arguing at get to work. On what? On building Building What [The] Skrillex. How in the fuck am I supposed to do that? How in the fuck did you get to be a vegetarian? It just happened. So. So… Are you really a vegetarian? ___ Why did you do this? I didn't do this! You did this! I didn't do this! Why would I do this? How could you! I didn't! What the fuck is HE doing here? What the fuck. You need to stop this. I can't stop. What did you DO. Exactly what I had to. Shasta! Who the fuck is that? That's that bitch. I told you it was Shasta. Who the fuck is Shasta. What show is this? Where is Skrillex? FUCK SKR— Wait, what show is this? INT. THE VOID. DAY & NIGHT. I remember the first time I ever realized, I could love anyone in the world, if they needed me to—or, if they just gave me the chance. Or if I got the chance. Or, if there was a chance. And, if there was a chance, and it was supposed to happen, it always would—especially if I wanted it— But definitely, if I needed it. But, what is is “if”? And, what is “supposed”? What is it to “want”? And what's a “need”? Now I know— or at least pretend to. Because, the more it is I think I know, the actual less I feel that I actually do; None the wiser, I am what I always was— And God is, as I am. Sunni Blu becomes a popular androgynous rapper, as as s/he rises to fame is forced to take on a mre masculine persona to monetize thiher music. After releasing a series of Skrillex diss-tracks, and music aimed at OWSLA's top dogs, a feud between Skrillex and Sunni Blu, or rather their ‘teams' breaks out into the media. After Skrillex is hacked and left with his entire music collection missing, it is presumed the attack and disappearance of his hard drives was orchestrated by Sunni; After his unreleased music is leaked and the damage is deemed ‘irreparable' The Skrillex Project is forced to close, and the artist himself disappeared into obscurity-- after hearing one of his unreleased tracks used for one of Sunni Blu's hits, he( ‘*the fictional Skrillex*) secretly attends one of Sunni's concerts; Sunni Blu spots him in a large crowd and the two brawl; Skrillex with the upper hand after Sunni draws back from a bloody nose and retreats; It is revealed that the unreleased Skrillex track which was ‘gifted' to her came from the stolen collection, unbeknownst to Sunni Blu Although Sunni Blu's true identity has yet to be revealed to more than Dillon Francis, beside the publicity and management who have been helping to keep her secret; Dillon Francis and Sunni Blu are cornered by paparazzi, revealing to the public that she is, in fact, a female; As allegations arise that Sunni Blu is a transgender, rumors put a strain on Sunni Blu and Dillon Francis's collaborations… TBC. All of a sudden—or maybe, even, not so suddenly—I was Clark Kent—or whatever Superman's name was. I had been without contacts or glasses for quite some time, and had quite explicitly in one of my many letters to God—or really any holy power in a realm which might have received my charred requests—all the things I needed, and some of the things I very badly wanted—tightly bundled and wax-sealed with intention for nothing besides that of the greater good, or course, for myself or anyone else—set ablaze in the unforgiving streets of New York City, in secrecy at odd hours of the night; it hadn't been my actual intent to have to practice any magic at all, especially under the circumstances, it it seemed that someone nearly unmentionable at all, had hexed a nasty attack on my psyche—a satanic, demonic possession of the weak and feeble bodies around me, and unable to isolate in completion, I became vulnerable to such a wicked curse that it had altered my psychic morality—as one does not practition a counter-curse or attack , in my medicinal expertise, without first being provoked—as one military typically mustn't bomb another, or even it's own enemy without being first considerably attacked—and it was, at this point, indeed a terrible holy war. I pulled the stars into order I put the water to fountains, in mountaintops I don't know who I am either But you call me God, Agree, I'd not— But at least I love you I believe I was you once I'm awful sorry that I broke you I might have put the sun Just to far up and out of reach Believe me, see—I see you Doesn't matter what we try to do Unity is beautiful I live on the 8th floor I don't intend what I'm there for It doesn't feel bad though It doesn't feel bad though I don't know what you're after -Blū Do I scare you? Only a little. Huh. What? Nothing.. I hate you. ihateyou. Eventually, The Ascended Masters will intervene. They already have. Oh, Christ Almighty. He's not coming. [Answering Phone] Jesus Christ Almighty –WHERERU? I TOLD YOU I'D GET THERE GODDAMNIT. Fascinating. Do my eyes deceive me, Or Is there a secret between us: A secret illusion; Should I bury it, Or keep it neatly And unseen, Between my knees, And where you need me? Is there a thing that I should need, But never speak– I'll keep it in my sweet release To dream beliefs of evil Seen, aquamarine revines, And pulsing veins, –and stolen hearts, Not passing judgment, But just passing by To hide, to pass the time To find a high, Align in color Fly, Write another rhyme, Or wire fireflies a transfer of light, Like the eyes reflect to mine. WHY would you write this? WHY. I hate blue eyes. That's racist. No it isn't. Congratulations on making it into my aerospace, unscathed A coincidence, this is not. I have something for you. I don't need anything from you. That's because I gave you everything you need. Right. I have everything. RIght. So you should know whatever you need comes at a high price. What makes you think I need something. You said you have something for me? Yes I do. You don't seem the gift giving type. I'm not. So, what do you want from me? WHAT DO YOU WANT FROM ME? Oh. it' s another one. What's he need? Probably nothin, really Oh, it's something. This shouldn't be happening. I agree. why is this bothering me. Google it's self had deleted half my entry, which was admittedly sloppily thrown together, at nearly a full episode's length; probably for the best, as I was becoming more intolerant of my societal responsibility by the moment, and increasingly self destructive asa result. It was still chaotic; fame kept coming closer towards me and then leaping away, but not out of reach or out of sight, but rather than chase it, I merely calmly strode forward in a never-changing pace, not rushing and always careful to remain calm, even when filled with fury. I had become unrecognizably fit, chaste, and a remarkably healthy eater; I was all together well, besides in the areas of romance and sexuality of course. I was ready to pounce, but timing would be key, and patience the virtue; UH – “hehe” …I beg your pardon. “Hehe” Um… Fuck. Or “haha” “haha” … Just admit it. … Admit it already! –haha. Admit WHAT. This gets Levels. Nobody thought Patrice O Neal was a woman! I thought Patrice O Neal Was a Woman. Ah, fuck, I'm nobody. “Nobody” Is that Bob Saget? I swiped right on this dude, just cause he looked exactly like Bob Saget. Omg. Bob Saget! Fuck, that's right. EXT. THE W HOTEL, BEVERLY HILLS, DAY/ EXT . PODSHARE WESTWOOD ROOFTOP, DAY OH MY GOD, GUYS, LOOK: IT'S BOB SAGET. No it's not! Oh My God! Yeah IT IS! Fuck, really?! Bob Saget?! BOB SAGET! YO GUYS, IT'S BOB SAGET. It was, in fact, Bob Saget. Bob Saget's dead, right? Oh yeah, bud. That's it guys! No more dead celebrities! I'm coming with you! NO MORE GHOSTS. Look, I have something to tell you. UGH. COME ON. This is a weird superpower. EXT. GRAVEYARD, QUEENS, NY. DAY … … … Having fun yet? Alright! I have a question! What? When do I get to– Get to what? You know. V.O. Things I know about myself… I have a dominant personality, but am sexually submissive— I am monogamous. I know what I like — *Drill beat* Die in your sleep (Hope you die in your sleep) Die in your sleep (Betta die in your sleep) I look like a vacation. But k'm still on the clock (psyche) Countin my rocks And holdin my (unh) crotch You better watch your back —hold on your coughs Don't run in no crocs! (No!) I'm offset Now I'm upset l —I love you. Shut up, foo— I don't even love myself. …you told her?! I—yeah… What did she say?! She said “shut up, fool Been. Long time since I missed my exit HEY! [looks over slowly] I LIKE YOUR BALLS. [beat] [thumbs up] How do I not have “throwing elbows?!” BECAUSE YOURE NOT DOING YOUR JOB! Shut up, Jeff COME TO THE DARK SIDE WE HAVE COOKIES Half of Hollywood shows up at Joel's super nerdy Star Wars party The truth comes in glimpses; A shattered reality Scattered the ashes at malice, insanity— Actress, an actress; She laughs when she has to, l l l And last to leave, actually, After each practice Practice conspicuous, Conspiracy conspiracy Perspiration lyrics, affixed to the rhythms She sleeps at the regency, l Freedom for secrecy Believe, please believe me, my love l It was easy The truth comes in glimpses; A shattered reality Scattered the ashes at malice, insanity— Actress, an actress; She laughs when she has to, l l l And last to leave, actually, After each practice Practice conspicuous, Conspiracy conspiracy Perspiration lyrics, affixed to the rhythms She sleeps at the regency, l Freedom for secrecy Believe, please believe me, my love l It was easy Sunni BLU Tweety bird Mickey Mouse Betty boop I woke up like this But a little different I woke up a star Then became a planet I'm a hummingbird, but I don't like flying I might look alright, But I feel like dying I hate waking up at 5 am Just to be the first one at the gym I don't wanna do that shit again— Well, I might as well just stay up! I hate waking up at 5 am Just to take my goddamn medicine, but If I don't I'll feel like shit— Well, I might as well just stay up! I might as well just stay up! This is a recipe for disaster. No, this is a recipe for Skrillex. Oh. This is the recipe for disaster. Thanks, Dillon Francis. FOR WHAT? I remember the moment I became partially deaf. Or at least, in the synesthetic sense. Dillon Francis is delicious Come on let me lick it on a stick Give it to me like a big Meat popsicle Meat popsicle Meat popsicle Meat popsicle Sample: Willy winks* ITS WILLY WONKA Lol are we still doing the bit where the misspellings are like a, another entirely different dimension? Yeah. Haha. Yeah. —and the chocolate factory “Lick an orange. It tastes like an orange. The strawberries taste like strawberries! The snozzberries taste like snozzberries!” KATT WILLIAMS IS— WILLY WONKA. Oh hell naw! Don't look at me; I'm just a DJ, don't look at me— Shaking my head, but it don't mean nothing Don't know what you mean You don't even see me; I ain't even here! Invisibility, The MVP or VIP. It don't mean nothing Don't look at me! Shaking my head, but it don't mean nothing, Hey, Don't look at me; I'm just a DJ, man, I'. The life of the party I do know what you mean! Shaking my head, but it don't mean nothing I don't know what you mean— Hey, I ain't see nothing, nope Don't look at me I could get some work in; I got 12 minutes, God as my witness I work on my fitness And listen to — Simple Temptations and limited Intervals, Quick algorithmics, And tentative frequencies No more mentions for attention whores Like Kayla Lauren! I promise that's my last one, That bitch is boring, I'm not sorry but I'm soarin on my suorin While you're snoring on my metamorphosis Imm getting sworn in Don't look at me; I'm just a DJ, don't look at me— Shaking my head, but it don't mean nothing Don't know what you mean You don't even see me; I ain't even show up to work this week OG VIP ASAP MVP It don't mean nothing I'm just a DJ Don't look at me —- Hey Mr. wedding ring— I'll buy you a drink, You know, Like an old cream soda. Or a float, You can drink in the bucket seat Tell me, Mr. Wedding ring Do you have everything you need? I don't envy anything besides your energy and symphonies, Please Excuse this phony boner, I don't know if you're alone If this is Homer, I'm a poet, though— And not a poser Hey, Do you suppose you know the code For doors that open up; I walk a lonely road, But Frog and Toad are old And told me you'd be there to show me (Whatever) Woah Where am I supposed to go from here I'm nowhere, dear I'm Alice lost in wonderland And all her friends— Even the one in red Who wants her head (Where'd that come from) Yo! It's a real bad acid trip, I can't get a grip on reality Can't get off the grid at random, If you're being tracked By the feds and fandom Woah. I may be one of the greatest writers in history But will you remember me? My ex gets Under my skin with Champion fashion; It's in bad taste But I haven't had my own bathroom In half a millennium Im under persenium arches Sniffing cristanthimymums sampling Arsenio Hall Are you ip yet? I'm still enthralled with this story But yo! (Where's Unaavvi at) I haven't been to a show (Where's the party at) I should be gripping a pole (Where is Cardi at) But it takes all day to get back to the Bronx in the snow! Fuck New York when it's cold And it's always cold in New York When you don't know nobody And your only hobby is hobbling around in the hotel lobby Counting the robbers and gobblins A D Whitney's and Bobby's The ghosts and the zombies Everything hurts But everything heals, with time// Whatever that is; And whatever that means, It's means to an end, if you let it be So let it be But, it persists in lettering me; He becomes me in my sleep, In dreams I think I really need him, or something Or anyone, or anybody Anything, or something Anybody, anybody Excerpt From: “DJ AND CC TAKE HOLLYWOOD” Wait, CC—you're a sex addict?! I'm an everything addict! You know this! I didn't know! —Except pills; I hate pills. What? I've seen you take pills before. Case in point! Why didn't you just tell me? It doesn't exactly come up organically in conversation, Dillon. What?! We talk about sex all the time. Like, in general—but not fórreal! What the fuck! What the fuck?! Whats the difference?! If you have to ask, I feel like you're really not gonna like the answer, dog. — “WorstConversationEver” (Bong rips) Remember your dad's friend Tom? Oh my God. You fucked Tom?! NO! okay, cause— I sucked his dick while I pretended to mow the lawn! What the hell?! —and he still paid me. Whatthefuck. Yeah, fucked up. So who mowed the lawn?! He mowed his own lawn! This is the worst conversation ever. The crazy thing about this story is— There's a lot of crazy things about this story, actually. EXT. BASKETBALL COURT. DAY. Alright— shirts and skins —Shirt—Skin Shirt,Skin— Uhh! Nah. I wanna be “shirts” Why dude?! Your girl's mad hot! So?! So I know you got it goin on! Look at you! I'm mad rich! Yeah—but girls always cheat on flabby rich dudes! With hotter dudes. My girlfriend might be cheating on me! Yeah—She's not, though. How do you know? Cause I tried! Yeah. Take your shirt off. No—uh! How do you know she's just not into you! Because! He tried— HE tried! You sell out. And Andre tried— [ANDRE is tall (about 6'9 dark, and handsome] —you too, bro? [ANDRE shrugs nonchalantly] That's an NBA player— What the FUCK, YO. —and she said NO. ANDRE Yup. Shot me down. Oh really—from all the way up there?! Face it, man! You're fuckin hot! I don't like the way that sounds coming from you— Take your shirt off! Were you this aggressive with my girl?! Don't be like that… Nah— fuck you! Yo! C'mon, man— And you three! You're holding up the game getting mad over nothing. It's Hollywood! It's Beverly Hills! —Exactly my point! You're new here—you'll catch on. You know what! I'm shirts—you're skins—Game on. [SUNNI BLU goes beast mode and plays the dirtiest, most whoopass game in history—out of spite and anger of the toxic masculinity; this of course earns SUNNI BLU even more respect as a “man's man”] Later: as the owner of the clippers, sunni BLU trades “Andre” to the worst basketball team in history. SUPACREE buys DIPLO a glass house to replace the one he burned down in a crime of passion.] There, now, you'll stop throwing stones— Huh! AND. Everyone can see when you ugly cry. *humphs* Now, stop it! Is it supacree? Uh? Could be Sunni Blu. Sunni Blu is a dude— Sunni Blu is pretending to be a dude. Oh yeah, huh. Dang. Huh. Well, then. We've gotta consult The Big Book of Dillon Francis. Don't say that like it's some kind of guide book. It is a guidebook. To what?? To Dillon Francis! That's preposterous. Didn't you choose Sonny? Didn't I waste my time writing the great big book of Dillon Francis!? Touché. Might as well do something with it. I got it. THIS IS ENVIRONMENTALLY IRRESPONSIBLE. BURN IT ALL. You're gonna hurt someone's feelings. Yeah, my own. STOP TOUCHING THAT. Wait, where is— Fuck. What? Now I'm “that girl who fell in love with Skrillex” Lol, which one. Hum. The one who wrote a novel about it. Pick your poison. Rum. Not a rum and coke? No, just straight up—you know what? How much is the bottle? Uhhh. Just. [SUPACREE pours the remains of the bottle into a red solo cup.] Ugh. Come on. What! At least you're not “The Black Yoko Ono” How did you even find out about that one. Infinite what the fucks. Now the world's getting mad again, I wrote something damaging; Doors just start slamming at random, And coughing— Sounds of motorists passing, Just scrambling my brain, I'm insane, but at least I have plainly created What may be historical, one day— I've made a whole masterpiece, a symphony that easily outlives me, infinity— My body's just a body Rush a cop just got get off this awful planet; I don't want what comes with poverty and fat, I don't compete with Instagram models, And everyone does that— I'm not a catfish, facts are facts I use my camera just to document the interesting phenomena I happen to walk past; Saw Dillon Francis on a wall, and had to grant the wish he asked— But don't know what it is exactly, I'm just happening, actually— I probably need nap but now Insomniac's been tracking me; I happily allow it; I program myself with beats, So when I finally sleep, I dream in music sequences, or something— I don't know I might delete it upon listening to rampant white supremacy or privelege on repeat, But that's just me, Forgetting I'm the one in trouble, On the run, without a family So perception is reality, and mine is badly damaged— Damn Pasquale again, I had to re-decipher all the messages transmitted from imaginary friends, Collecting images in infrared *gasp* Okay, just—breathe… I can't! I have to wear a mask! It's mandatory—so is being black, I have to! But I'm not a rapper! Maybe I should talk to Chance, Or Marshall Mathers: They might have to answer To the questions that I can't afford to ask This automatic writing might just be the most Goddamned advanced evidence of intelligent inhabitants in other dimensions, or other planets Or all of the above, Or maybe just of Dillon Francis using magic, Which he got from— Oh, no, here it comes SK— Fuck this. Fuck this mother—FAWN. Are we out of F*cks, then? I floppin' guess! I thought you loved him. It is what it is. What is it? INFI— THE END. INFINITI! ...yes, mom? GET IN HERE, Huh? Don't say “huh”. Okay, what? Don't say “what” … … … ...welll, what do you want? What is this? *shrugs* INFINITY [ooh, with a ‘Y' that's how you know mom's angry this time] *COUGHS* Betcha his photographer's in love with him. Which one has the VooDoo Doll? There's a Skrillex VooDoo Doll? It's technically ‘Sonny' Aww. You'd be surprised at the shit these girls will— INFINITY. WHAT. What is THIS?! It's just—Skrillex. AFH. Now you're FUCKED. I thought we were out of FUCKS. That was FAUX. Awww: I see what you did there. Am I done now? What does Dillon Francis want?! —don't answer that. [whispering in ear.] That's not possible So. I shifted a consciousness into this rock. Why would—why? For good luck. Oh, this is a problem, But it turns out. HUH. Damn. I'm on one, I have blue balls, This is not fun. This is not fun. This is not fun. Okay; now you're done. So, that's it--? You really want to ride this Sinking Ship? If that's what this is, then I guess that says it. Says…? Says “I just bought a ticket to Titanic at Bass Canyon.” Is that where you bought it? Is it? Why would you give yourself in, for him? (For Anyone?) In. (Psh) I gave myself out. Out? Look at you. Look at me. I'd rather not. You know what it is You know what it is— You know what it is That's the business Comin in hot, like a chicken wing This ain't Toy Story—got no friend in me, You feelin me? Cold as Minnesota, I'm the ice queen Nice bling— Hollywood should buy this bitch a wedding ring Amohetemime Trick, you're a half, I'm the whole thing Whole Foods market, gotta own me No mink coat, I'm a vegan, Hocus Pocus, I'm three witches Okay, from the top Hello? This is Hollywood calling; We want the festival project We just wrote up the contract Come get your deposit: You're nominated for an Oscar Your Star On The Walk looks Awesome it's On Us Yeah? That's what's up I'll come up I'll come up I'll come up Say what's up That's my shite; I'm rep in the festival project Ya'll like “what's that?” I'll tel you all about it,—that's Coming up next Oh yeah, Oh yeah Tune in I'm On Welcome to your Hollywood life The good life Good life Welcome to the Hollywood life That's right That's right Welcome to your Hollywood life The good life Good life Welcome to the Hollywood life That's right That's right They call me young Hollywood, They robbed me good in Santa Monica And I so I got no address yet; But I'm coming up like one direction I just checked my reflection like: Mirror mirror on the wall I gotta go Hollywood's callin And I don't do this often Only when o bless the red carpet Comin in hot, like a chicken wing Call me Toy Story— got a friend in me, You feelin me? On the big screen livin out my dreams, I wrote my scenes, the Hollywood life: I neee I ride by On a tomeline I write, I like My nice things. The life I lead, Is ritghteous, I defy my means Applied IT, I might be AI, Fine my me; Cause all I see Is light I like, And I'm liking my Hollywood life, I think. Nice bling— Hollywood should buy this bitch a wedding ring Amohetemime Trick, you're a half, I'm the whole thing Whole Foods market, gotta own me No mink coat, I'm a vegan, Hocus Pocus, I'm three witches It's just some Hollywood shit Isn't it fabulous This is some Hollywood shiy Isn't it fabulous Comin in hot, like a chicken wing This ain't Toy Story—got no friend in me, You feelin me? Cold as Minnesota, I'm the ice queen Nice bling— Hollywood should buy this bitch a wedding ring Amohetemime Trick, you're a half, I'm the whole thing Whole Foods market, gotta own me No mink coat, I'm a vegan, Hocus Pocus, I'm three witches You know what it is You know what it is— You know what it is That's the business One door close. Then another door opens So sick flow, go home with a cold then Woah, Hoe—cold like some snow boots Pants so big, I can parachute PARACHUTE! Hoes look fake, like a blow up doll Harlem shake, i'm bout to blow up ya'll SAM ASH. HOLLYWOOD, CALIFORNIA. DAY. Do you have any Jog Wheels? Beg your pardon? Uh, Jog Wheels. “Jog Wheels” Yeah, you know, like (imitates DJ scratching) Oh, you mean these? (Entire room of DJ controllers) Yeah, but just–this (points to Jog Wheel) Oh, “Jog Wheels…” Yes. Jog Wheels. …Just “Jog Wheels?” …yes. No. [Leaving store with frustrated infuriation] AGH. BEFORE: Oh my God! We've been robbed! WHAT! OH MY GOD! WHAT! WHAT'D THEY TAKE?! – Have you tried Guitar Center? THEY TOOK MY JOG WHEELS. Bitch you mad? Mad at what? I'm still making money; I don't give a fuck Get my bag; Count it up I'm a dog— And you know I like it rough (Ruff ruff ruff) Where you from? Where you hood at? Keep it clsssy But I'm acting like a hood rat I'm a playa I got boss racks Call me north Cause I'm pointed where the moss at (Money) I am from Los Angeles I got all these fans and stuff I smoke on dat tangle I be at PINK buying bras n stuff I still shop at hollister The Bronx ain't got no Rosses Or hot topics But I bought this floss To drop it like a thot n stuff Bitch you mad? Mad at what? I'm still making money; I don't give a fuck Get my bag; Count it up I'm a dog— And you know I like it rough (Ruff ruff ruff) I show up Play some ratchet music I show up Play some ratchet music. In the booth I'm eating waffles. Had to force quit my serato Key: F It's such a wonderful feeling– leaving, release, sweet relief, Slowly bleeding out Dreaming, in peace With no reason to grieve–finallly– Freedom Mm-hmm mm-hmm Mmm-hmmm __ I'm so LA for no reason. Souls— So long, So gone, Almost The time has come to walk The time has come again to rise, Rise up The time has come to walk, come on The time that's come is ours, From now on Give me time to walk, An Hour or so A trot, the fox Time to run An hour or nothing The founder of the establishment The Tower of Babel Another arrangement The flounder, the fox, the horse Come one, come all, Come one, come now The walk or a run A gallop, or trot— the horse A crown for a gallon of water A gallon of water A gallon of water I know who you are my son; Come one, come all Come mother, come father Come dog, and come brother A sister, another All for a walk in the park I lost it All for a gallon of water A gallon of water Souls— So long, So gone, Almost The time has come to walk The time has come again to rise, Rise up The time has come to walk, come on The time that's come is ours, From now on Sonny left you out in the cold Sonny doesn't know what to do Sonny gotta very old soul, so Sonny's done away with the truth Sonny didn't open any doors Sonny's always sitting in the booth Sonny isn't coming for you, poor Sonny's so in love with Sunni Blu So be Sunni Blu So be Sunni Blu You'll see Sonny soon The universe is split into two, you know Who are you? (I told you) What do you do? (I just want to make music) So you do Don't go assuming you're consumed, dude Just renew You're a renewable Don't be confused if confucius say “Hey, just play to the tune “ Get a mop and a broom And a mic and a boom Rent a room somewhere for a month or two Just don't be stupid Cupid's run out of room So Sonny's just a man that I love Sonny means less, but he does too much Sonny's just human Sonny's got proof that Once you've got money, It's all for amusement Just be Sunni Blu, kid I should have kissed him. Flashback: Montage—Season 6 V.O. I have a massive headache. I can't stop thinking about Dillon Francis. I'm hungry but haven't been to the gym and don't want to risk getting fat; All my extra smalls fit, but my butt is getting bigger. My new job's alright, but I feel like a loser. LA broke is better than regular broke, but it would be nice not to be in debt. I feel like I need a hug or a really good fuck or maybe both and then a cuddle. I can't sleep and I hate all my roommates for just existing. I think I might be getting sick just from being around other people too much. I spent like $200 on protein and left almost all of it in Las Vegas. LA Fitness sucks but it's better than nothing; I really miss Equinox. It doesn't seem like anybody really cares about me. I'm Lonely all of a sudden. I've really been craving pancakes. A lot. Sometimes it seems like everything I've written is just a waste of time. I can't stop thinking about sex. Sometimes I think about sex with Dillon Francis. Skrillex isn't real. Nothing I seem to do adds up. I'm a loser. I keep checking my emails like something is going to change. Sometimes I feel like I'm about to be famous— I'm still hungry and thinking about a late night walk to LA Cafe; I really like their tater tots. I miss being a mom. Still thinking about LA CAFE but I already had Tocya Orgánica because the juice bar was closed when I got off work. I just want someone to love me. I thought I sold my soul but I still need love so I know it's still in there somewhere. I literally spend every day working just to pay for a room to share with four people. I almost had confidence before the Australian man came along. It's weird to think about how everything I've written is just sitting in my Google documents doing nothing. All the jobs I actually want to do are for people with beautiful bodies and mine is disgusting. There's No Rick and Morty with no Justin Roiland. There's No Pirates of The Caribbean with No Johnny Depp. There's no room for reality in Hollywood. {Drill Music Playing} EXT. DOWNTOWN LOS ANGELES. NIGHT DRAKE BELL enters the SMOKE SHOP Enter The Multiverse L E G E N D S The Legend of… “Looking Back” All of a sudden—or maybe, even, not so suddenly—I was Clark Kent—or whatever Superman's name was. I had been without contacts or glasses for quite some time, and had quite explicitly in one of my many letters to God—or really any holy power in a realm which might have received my charred requests—all the things I needed, and some of the things I very badly wanted—tightly bundled and wax-sealed with intention for nothing besides that of the greater good, or course, for myself or anyone else—set ablaze in the unforgiving streets of New York City, in secrecy at odd hours of the night; it hadn't been my actual intent to have to practice any magic at all, especially under the circumstances, and it seemed that someone nearly unmentionable at all, had hexed a nasty attack on my psyche—a satanic, demonic possession of the weak and feeble bodies around me, and unable to isolate in completion, I had become vulnerable to such a wicked curse that it had altered my psychic morality—as one does not practition a counter-curse or attack, in my own medicinal expertise, without first being provoked—as one military typically mustn't bomb another, or even it's own enemy without being first considerably attacked—and it was, at this point, indeed a terrible holy war. I had at the very least been able to return to regular gym sessions, though still not training as thoroughly as before; I had allowed myself to gain quite a bit of weight over the period of just a couple weeks, eating for the most part what I wanted out of comfort, especially having nearly starved and defaulted into severe malnutrition after eating nothing but bananas for a period which lasted something like three weeks—and without adequate protein intake, I had l lost quite a bit of muscle, not that, for the most part, the muscles that I had been building weren't there—in fact, I found myself, at least as of late, looking like any retired or untrained athlete that had let themselves gain atop the muscle they had built—fat now sitting on top of my larger muscles and making the weight gain look and feel even more hideous, and after several days of at least regular lifting and sauna, I still didn't feel like running, which would alleviate most of the gain mo

I can't fall for this again— Another rich and handsome man— A dream he wants to be my friend A dream he wants to hold my hand Oh look, Another dance for anthem Look, I'm just another fan No, I can't fall for this again —but they would go against the plan A simple programming error, Lips the color of a pomagranite Circle on the palm, And then , of course, We press the center And look, here we are again Another life, Another love A new wife— Another husband Honest? I'm just good with fucking —aha I just want to fuck you I got love, but what it good for Look at me, or look at nothing! Look, I'm just good with fucking Check the news for new engagements Fucking sick and fucking tragic Nothing more than actors, DJs, drinks and addicts Look, I'm just a happy accident— I still hate Dillon Francis And I never wanted Skrillex: That shit never even happened! Have you had enough yet?! Carrot cake does sound good Ten karat long engagement ring— Is that a lot? I'm just a homeless Look, I'm just another DJ Some fake model stole it Some would call it occult Magic —honest? I just want some dick, man Fuck it —aha I just want to fuck you I got love, but what it good for Look at me, or look at nothing! Look, I'm just good with fucking You know why you like me?! Yes, I know why I like you— Cause I'm rich! —no, actually—it's because you're smart. Where in the fuck are you going? I don't know yet. Well, know faster—we have company. Fuck. Destroy every bit of evidence. Ok. —and make sure nobody sees you. Yeah, right! YO. Why the fuck are you here, Timmy? I told you, I'm not Timmy. I don't give a fuck who you are—where's my money? It's— it's on the way, I promise. I'm don't take well tk promises, Timmy. What do you take well to? Money. FUCK. What! FUCK, FUCK, FUCK! What?! We're too late, she's gone! Goddammit. —She was already here! FUCK. FUCK. FUCK! >>> FUCK! How do you know? —there's glitter, everywhere. Is it gone? It's gone? ALL OF IT. TIMMY TRUMPET plays a SKRILLEX. Etto, Timmy?! Oh shit, another Timmy. That's weird. I was just thinking he about Skrillex. Why. Timmy, put a shirt on. That's it. What. You can't be hot and play the trumpet. Why. One thing's gotta go. THE DEVIL takes away Timmy Trumpet's ability to play the trumpet. WHAT. Can't have both. Well, I don't really need both now, do I? When I'm in a tough spot I have to listen to deadmau5 —something about the precision and frequencies out my brain somewhere between auropilot and dead space. I don't know. I've done just about everything you can think of listening to deadmau5. Almost. But, I noticed— Working out to deadmau5 is strange. It puts me in some kind of vibration where people notice me— Not just notice me. People are suddenly “impressed” with whatever it is I'm doing. And it's usually something regular as fuck— I'm just doing it to deadmau5. And for some reason, people are like “Wooooow!!” Okay, whatever. I used to work out to Skrillex. Actually. I used to work out to only Skrillex. I don't know if its just because I was fat, or cause I liked Skrillex. Now its like running a serrated knife up my spine. I started to figure out I was kind of famou— Kind of— When I showed up at the gym and Skrillex songs kept coming on I'm like “This is what I get for doing nothing but free trials” But hey, You try finding a gym in the shitty areas of New York worth paying for. It's very hard. The crazy thing about this story is— There's a lot of crazy things about this story, actually. EXT. BASKETBALL COURT. DAY. Alright— shirts and skins —Shirt—Skin Shirt,Skin— Uhh! Nah. I wanna be “shirts” Why dude?! Your girl's mad hot! So?! So I know you got it goin on! Look at you! I'm mad rich! Yeah—but girls always cheat on flabby rich dudes! With hotter dudes. My girlfriend might be cheating on me! Yeah—She's not, though. How do you know? Cause I tried! Yeah. Take your shirt off. No—uh! How do you know she's just not into you! Because! He tried— HE tried! You sell out. And Andre tried— [ANDRE is tall (about 6'9 dark, and handsome] —you too, bro? [ANDRE shrugs nonchalantly] That's an NBA player— What the FUCK, YO. —and she said NO. ANDRE Yup. Shot me down. Oh really—from all the way up there?! Face it, man! You're fuckin hot! I don't like the way that sounds coming from you— Take your shirt off! Were you this aggressive with my girl?! Don't be like that… Nah— fuck you! Yo! C'mon, man— And you three! You're holding up the game getting mad over nothing. It's Hollywood! It's Beverly Hills! —Exactly my point! You're new here—you'll catch on. You know what! I'm shirts—you're skins—Game on. [SUNNI BLU goes beast mode and plays the dirtiest, most whoopass game in history—out of spite and anger of the toxic masculinity; this of course earns SUNNI BLU even more respect as a “man's man”] Later: as the owner of the clippers, sunni BLU trades “Andre” to the worst basketball team in history. For, As soon as the moon is full, She also begins to wane— And as sure as we are to shine, We also fade away I had one slice of red velvet cake, one slice of cheesecake—which of course only reminded me of Sonny Moore—the decadent, delicious red velvet—and Dillon Francis—the spiced and ecclectic trademark carrot cake—if only not to sooty the pain of joe much I wanted both of them, but probably didn't need them—how I craved them so, but they probably weren't good for me, nor would they last— —but they would both be delicious, anyhow. The seagull said. “To the sea, we go!” Overhead, he flies As the day goes by me Idly, I wait— I could take a ride, But i'd rather be By myself, By my… INT. EMPIRE ENPANADAS. NIGHT You gonna order? What you got? Empanadas. Just empanadas? —Yeah. Okay, that's weird. Lol the only thing funny about this scene is that their New York accents are so atrociously heavy. Right. —weird. INT. SUBWAY STATION. DAY. Sunni BLU is passed out in the subway station. Ew… Yeah, my god. Wait—is that— —sunni?! SUNNI drunkenly groans. Sunni! Get up! Ughhhh. What are you doing?! I'm drunk. I know that. You're always drunk. Yeah. What are you doing here. What. In the subway. I do this sometimes. What. For what?! You never know who you're gonna meet. In the subway On the floor?! YeH! I met R- Kelly down here! What! When was this Not at this station, though, but yeah. To think, It was all just an awful game, to make you write more songs— And in the end, if you don't make the cut They just make you kill yourself, anyway. Love isn't real, but money is; And all men want is money, So they can buy the love— And all women want is love— But it has to come with money Or it all just falls apart It all just falls apart It all just falls apart “Illuminatus”, Open, close Illuminaudio, for starters Cross a crucifix for sons, and wanted daughters What's a brother to a sister— Or a mother to a father? What's a stop sign to a car, If no one's driving? In the end, they kill you off In the end, they kill you off With every cough, they kill you off— But there's always another Who wants to be a star— Or just The mother of his child, Maybe both Genetic lotto luck —the cut off. Agatha… A far cry, out into the distance–a wind, almost a whisper; A lover, long gone and almost since forgotten, unseen since the very dawn of time and first ever glimpse of light– …We Meet Again. FUCK. WHAT IS THIS. I know, man. FUCK. Fuck. Well, are you gonna tell this story or not? This isn't possible. It is possible. This isn't happening. – This dude has a radio tower in his front yard. That's his front yard?! I fucking guess. What is that. That's a satilite. Nice. Yep. Alright, you son of a bitch. Hey! My mom's nice! Not that nice–bringing you here. How do you know that's how I got here? Exactly my point. [cocks pistol slowly.] You're dead, mouse. OH. I GET IT. kill that motherfucker. Wait. Hold up. Hold the phone! Holding. How did we get to this point? I mean– a few ways. What are you watching. SHH. Wedon'tknow. SHHH. OK! SHHHHHHH! IT' getting good. Ya. It's getting deeper. So much deeper. WAit. … Who are you? I'm a fan. No. How did you get in my house? It's my house. It's– –no. No, it's not. YEs. this is my house. No. What. GEt out. SHH. What. DUde– No. Ze show is on and it is getting one deeper. Be quiet. IT's getting two deeper. –like nine deeper. SHHH. Oh, I get it. She really wants to fuck Dillon Francis. #FuckDillonFrancis Uh, no– I already did that. Gross. Excuse me. You are excused! I mean, I beg your pardon. Please, don't beg. Er, uh– Could you repeat that last part? Woah, this gets multidimensional as fuck. I have a time machine. Are there any loopholes? There are loopholes. THere better be loopholes. Sorry, we're out. GodDAMMIT. What. I was really looking forward to those loopholes. Well, they're gone. FUCK. HEre, have some Oh-Noh's. I don't want– Just SHUT UP and EAT YOUR CEREAL. Don't worry–I'm still Team Skrillex. There are TEAMS?! Oh, yeah, bro. Oh, so–it is a love story. I don't think that's what this is. I'M GONNA MURDER YOU. Ok. WITH MY DICK. A-1. There's something I need to tell you. What. But i'm sworn to secrecy Then how am I supposed to– Just–shh– follow my lead. “The Magic Effect.” Did it work? Don't know yet. You nutted to this girl 36 times in the last 20 Calendar days. Ok… 36 Times. One Girl. 20 Days. …What's your point. This is ferocious. I have your entire internet history. All of it? Oh yes. All of it. Welp. Well. THat's it for me. I've had enough. There's no Skrillex Deepfake. Aw. that sux. Why would you look at this? …why not, though? You're a disturbed man. I'm pretty regular. REGULR TO WHO? *shrugs* Me, I guess. TURN THIS OFF. I can't take it anymore. Whatever happened to the– SHHH. Fuck. I'm so wasted. So what do you think is gonna happen? Listen. I have a lot to get through. THis is all just nonsense. I think we're avoiding some heavy subjects, here. Well, there are a lot of discrepancies. Kill yourself. I just did. Kill yourself–again. I–GodDAMMIT. Just do it. NO. Come on. Congratulations, you got the job! Yes! Thank you! …What's the job? I need you to get the fuck out of here in the next five seconds–before I blow my head off, and take you with me. Don't do that. Five… Yo, i'm serious. Four… Jesus Christ, dude. YOu don't think this hits a little close to home. Home? what is home? For the Record, Skrillex, Dillon Francis, and Deadmau5 respectively are all getting their dicks sucked on yachts right now in some foreign exotic country– You're not wrong. That is correct. Standard music business. And People are living in tents under bridges. I'm just saying. If you think this project is reckless and bizarre, check your own simulation. So. So. Where were we? Somewhere between blowing our heads off and getting our dicks sucked? I'm sure there's a striking correlation somewhere. ‘My Candle Burns At Both Ends…' Oh, More Occult Magic God Bless The Illuminati GOD I Am The Illuminati Glad that's settled. Three. Goddamit, don't do this. Two– [cocks pistol] Why just pistols. Cause shotguns are messy– –and for dramatic effect; I love that sound. [the other party quickly removes his handgun from his waistband, shooting the other man and then himself quickly; They now both lay dead.] How do I write this Just write it. I need adderall. You need Jesus. By goD, youre right. [iPhone] What are you doing? Calling on Jesus. Are you serious. He's the plug. Ugh. I need adderall. What did I do?! YOu know what you did. ∆ Well, alright then. ∆ Must be something. ∆ I got it. “The Legend of Supacree” L E G E N D S “Tales of A Superstar DJ” To do: Cut Freaky Friday 001 Cut Throwback Thursday 001 Cut SOM III Part I {God Is God] Part II [Clockwork] –Pull 212 Remix It's far beyond my control I get out of my head and into my soul In one ear, never out the other If the wind blew down your door, How would I call for you? —Through her, I suppose And the silk of her hair, Or the satin of her dress, — Oh, it's almost admissible, Surely admirable, Worth a smile or not, That all the world is words, In the end, As I tear down my worlds, and start over from One And I've already stopped enough once for today, I think Surely, what you'd like is just The time to get it all to nothing (Never had I wanted it or needed it) The phone was ringing, But I'll never be off the hook again, If you look for the proper way to move forward, You'll never find it, Especially looking behind you (Always looking behind you— Head in the past Just like you It's just like me, Too, To sit down and decide a whole song about you While taking it all down. I'm never distraught with the thoughts of a stranger, Oh, on the contrary; You should be mad about battle, But I'm all for the veterans and And never off if we were not at war with one another, but Then again, That's all we've ever done It would be Devastating To even think of Something more clever “Clever and splendiferous confectionary efforts, Just spectacular concessions my dear; I'll have another.” Hadn't I deciphered once or twice the rhyme for riddles down to dollars and cents? I did, I thought, once. I never hindered Heaven from pondering over my shoulder once or twice upon a full lit moon, which under I predicted my own fortune. Once— or twice, but— Nevermind, or nothing; Indifference, for instance, instantly inscessent ancestral insimination incriminating risidual visuals uhh— —From the festival. Right. The festival project. [—Parallels.—] GOD: So you want to be The “Glass Animals” *nods* Glass Animals. That's what I said. Glass Animals There's no “The” Context. Ok. So–”Glass Animals” *nods* Are you sure you don't want to be made of something else? *nods* *shrugs* Okayy. Glas Animals. I'm lost, But don't remind me Running out of time But time can't find me Open up my eye 10 times in 9 days I should probably fall away Back to the bay, No baby, don't cry No baby, don't cry No baby, don't cry [Midnight Request Line.] Sleek black corvette. Not a dent, not a scratch And I am feeling better, Since you asked What a warm and welcome Pleasant, wet suprise What do I owe you the—time I guess it made me smile for awhile, now I'm sad again— Wow, that was quick… Only took a second, but don't mind my arrogance ‘—I play this and it puts me in a trance.' I want to dance with you I hope someone holds my hand like that, one day Where are you taking me? “Away, my dear, away…”, he's saying… I lie awake midday and taking shallow breaths, I drift away A weapon for my empathy, [Midnight Request Line.] I have no idea what happened. ‘Ambiguous Ambitions - The Crossing ‘ A shiver up my spine I don't really mind, I'm still trying to find the word for it— But tongue in cheek it is That's—if it fits You but me once, And I liked it Come bite me twice If you buy it; Alright, Ryan—where is it? Where is what? You know what I'm talking about. I don't know anything! “Ryan Remembers Everything” Goddamn it, wake up. I need silence. GET UP, GODDAMNIT. Okay— Okay— —I just need you to tell me where it is— Where what is?! I don't think this is very funny. This got serious. Ouch. I don't want to watch TV anymore ever again. I really wish you'd tell me Oh, you wish? Watch this. I'm sorry, Ryan. Hello. I—hello. I'll have a tall order of whatever's in that box. You want what's in that box? Yessir. What is happening? I dunno. I'm afraid that's going to be a problem. *gasp* can we have ninjas? *NINJAS* NINJA FIGHT. —oh sht rly. *lmfao* Sometimes i'm set in my ways, Sometimes days go by—days, In the blink of an eye, Ever since I decided, I might have had love with you. I think we have some things to figure out, about it —it being ourselves, And washing my hands never felt so right In my life Somebody told me the stars in the sky were spirit guides, And it stuck, I'm up all night, But i'm the only star I see In New York City Don't look up to see me— Don't look up to me please, kid, really I mean, why, my baby? I mean, Hi lady— You so fly tonight, just my delight I — Like the way I look by you I— You know, If I sit in the city every night like this, And write, It just might Be the end of me Be the end of me Be the end of me You know, If I did get the limelight, Right on time to soothe and Satiate my need to be an idol LC Even this late in life, Like— —fuck ‘8I just want him to like me' I shouldn't even think about Superstardom like that, But I'll be right back, I gotta get the rabbit out the White hat, What a habit to have, huh What an idea that we might all get along Or a lot done Or be better off alone Than just to fuck off And write another song— Because the audience will like it But we're all over it; It's all done, isn't it? “The Running Game” I don't know what you want to hear from me. How about, “I'm sorry.” Ok, I'm sorry. You don't do much, do you? I guess I don't. Sabotage//Salvation Idk what this is supposed to mean. This is my demise. You're completely a ticking time bomb. You're not wrong. Salvation, from the doldrums. A sound to soothe my soul, I sink beneath you, South and under smoky water Open mouth, and barely thought of, Although often, Walk or waltz, would I To fall, my love, So becoming of a flower; forth and outward over fountains; Leaps and bounds, Of course– Well, this is dope af. What are you doing. What. What happened. THis is really good. So. So, i gotta turn this one off now– And listen to that one insead. All the time? Yeah. Oh. For, like ever..? Well, no. I gotta put it in the vault. Noooh. Yes. YEs. Yes. Forever. FOrever, no, for now– yes. That could be almost forever. Yeah. Almost. “Almost Invisible.” Take out my eyes, for now (If i could, would you want them) To beg or to barter for, I offer them up, as Ritual sacrifice (it's just a) Ritual Sacrifice. These two eyes. __ He was the boy who owned the world; Hailing from the land of a thousand suns, He said, “I'll give you a dozen roses, honey, If all you ever do is, Smile for me, So, go ahead, Smile for a dozen roses or more,” And the irony is that she did it– Not for the roses, –but for the attention. (Just for the attention.) It was she who birthed the worlds; Building the land of a thousands suns, She said I'll give you a dozen horses, “If you could just– Pick the winning one” And the irony is, that he did it– Because he loved horses, And now he had twelve of them! (--And any one could be the winning one, no matter what she does; He's got a dozen of em, Anyway.) Fuck. What. Well, that went off the deep end. Fuck. Well, this just got dark. This guy comes off your blacklist tonight. No, this person Guy. PErson. Most certainly does not. I promise if I love a=a=A=a What is this That's a making no complese sense equation. Think about it in a multidimensional– Oh, that makes total sense. Just remember, when using this– this has been around for a really long time. It's been A long time. I died in your bed, But woke up in your arms; Oh when you love, love– Love me harder, Love me harder– Oh, baby when you love, love me harder Love me harder Love//Love Me Harder Love//Love Me Harder Love//Love//Love Love Me Harder Love//Love Me Harder Love//Love//Love Love Me Harder I woke up in your bed, And then died in your arms; It was a work of art, I suppose What we were, or are (Or aspire to be.) Please. Give me your iPhone. No! No? (Takes I phone.) Is there a reason you don't want me having this? …no. No? —it's full of stuff. “Stuff.” Yes. It's— “Stuff.” Yes. — —and things. I know. Look. We had a deal. We had no “deal” We had a deal. This train just goes on forever, you know; Whether you're on, or off it— So get off, and back on at the wrong stop Once, if not just for the discovery Of another supermarket, Where you shop for strawberries and Groceries Good flex, God; I got a gang of em I'm gonna explain it as straight as it gets Sometimes, You just got to know where to go If you don't trust your gut, You'll just never get, Never get it right. Alright, alright, I started it Alright, right— I gotta get it right, I gotta get ; I'm the worst at introductions Oh and, So bad at Goodbyes Oh, why'd you have to leave me by my idol Why, Why'd you have to lead me by my eyes By my eyes God, I love the way I love the way, I love the way you Love me God, I love The way you The way you Love me You forgot about me, didn't you? You forgot all about me You forgot all about it— All about it Al about it It's not the same, anymore Since you gave it a name, is it? There's nothing I can do To help me, help you This is all I can do, To help me, love you I have to remove you; I have to remove you In a room— Full of beauty— In a world, Full of woes I lose the last dose of you, on my tongue Nobody ever wanted it, like I do— Like I do I lose the last dose of you on my tongue, And I'm all full of love again; I never saw anything like it, I was a modem, still plugged into the wall An anonymous post partum unremarkable Post-party proclamations and eternal damnation for ordering breakfast Evading transportation authorities Unworried the informant sleeping under me Oh, Now she wants to song— Oh, look— And now, she has a song to sing A point to make, A wrong to ring; The man she brings along Is bad for her Oh, she's gotta work (She loves to work, She's got to work it) What kills her makes her stronger What doesn't kill her makes her stronger All she does is Carry on And Carry on And Carry on. “Mrs Sheffield left flushing queens, for this.” Mrs Sheffield left Flushing, Queens, for this?! Mrs Sheffield left Flushing, Queens for this! Mrs, Sheffield! -1flushing queens, fah ‘dis. Very well worth it, I got all the way to brooklyn And way beyond my means for this It's well outta my means. It's out of my hands, now. That boy called you “grandpa” How is it all over? When I bet to God I was, Just in your lap at this party, And you were under me slippin on some sort of Lager or Something Weren't you? Yeah, I was just there, too I was just there, too— I was just there, too— Oh, now she has a song… All of a sudden.— But it's not all of a sudden at all It's not all of a sudden There's nothing, is there? Oh, There's something, surely I went to bed late; But I'm getting up early. I see the way he looks at me— —take it easy, baby We could have the whole room waiting Like a stoner at a stop sign My bad, My eyes lie to me All the time Driving me mad Telling me I want you inside me My bad My bad Well, I want you in my bed But I haven't had one yet I'm thinking Purple Mattress; Or is that mids, to you kids Like Timmy ho's Or my mustang civic It's a custom, yeah Nobody has it yet It's a hybrid Like I am —I am a bit off subject, now (My bad) We never had sex in my bathroom (That was your house) I took a mouse to the mountain (My bad) My writing is getting more Acid-centric, Lysergic acid diethylamide; I didn't buy any, But I haven't the need anymore, Really I just wake up like this: That is, when I wake up (I have long nights, kids) My bad I want to see you very briefly Without your briefs, You know what I mean? Me neither— Sexual delinquency in meditated frequencies Repeat this sequence I keep my deepest secrets Where I need it Right up my slime, Where my spleen is— Dreamed it, and I haven't cleaned since (Or dreamed since) In this Endless emission, Ignition sequence begins When The Lean splits Under the blood moon; An eclipse. I drift off a lot— Just thinking of your penis My daydreams are not very safe for the public I think they're X-rated or worse, Even thinking of you as a person, Or worse: As my husband once, as my lover— Lovers have all the fun, anyway Hm All the things that I'd do to you After you put me through— What are you looking for, exactly? A synchronicity. Just any synchronicity? There's no such thing as “just any” synchronicity. Does “laying low” mean nothing to you? I'm laying low! On a city tour?! It's a big city! [From Afar] IS THAT HER? Aw, fuck. Well, well, well–here we go–0 I don't have time for this. Here it is. I don't know what you're doing. We're going on an adventure! NO. I. Cant. Enjoy. Anything. WELCOME TO HOLLYWOOD. I hate this. My creativity had become merciless–inspiration pouring from the world as if all that it wanted wast o be collected and captured in any way I could see fit to create– What do you want? Out of life–or in this store? Out of life. Lets start with this store. A Living Lion; The eyes inside, I smiled, declined to act on impulse He'll admit, She's less complex, cause she's basic Everthemore complacent, blatantly lazy-- and crazy adorable. Whatmore could any man want? Whatmore could any man need? Whatmore could any man have; But the best friend who needed therapy, Several Plastic surgeries, A fading glass menagerie-- If she knew what that means. (Basically, they're both nobodies.) ‘What on God's awful green earth makes you think I would ever want anything to do with either of you two Losers? Beggars can't be choosers. His plan B was Annie; But she was never like me Enough to be Happy with Sonny; Let alone anybody. What is happening? Do you have an explanation of what's happening to me. Every realm of reality and possibility. This is infinity. What is this all supposed to mean to me? You can see everything and nothing; You can be anything. So what would that mean? What does it mean to you? That Love is Love, then. I've been half of a wide-open bleeding heart, Since the Goddamn start of it. He started it, Or someone did I didn't ever ask for it I was only ever always on the dancefloor when it mattered. I was always looking past him, but not ever looking at him. It was always just at random, but i'd never thought to ask him A question, Or to greet him-- I just. Adjust. They're watching us, from above. Adjust. They just don't trust us Adjust. Look what we've done, look what we've done to the planet that gave us all the light that we come from. Look, there. It appears to be ‘shimmering' What exactly is happening. The entirety of its surface is Auquous. Oceana. If i learn all the planets, In the everlasting galaxies-- And learn how to explore it… I just might get to Skrillex. I might fully need a Xanex bar if I ever see this kid in person. He's olden than you. By like, a minute. Still. I mean, really. I don't think this is ever going to work. It might not work, I mean-- What? If you had to actually-- Oh God, no; I'd be far too nervous. So what are you going to do when it comes time for festival season Run. Hide. Run + Hide. Fight or Flight; A Natural Response to Skrillex There is no natural response to Skrillex, because it's unnatural Be civil. I am I ‘m trying to figure out how to protect this species. Oh now, you're acting as if he's not human Of course he is. But i'm not. Of course. All it is, is science, a bit of misunderstanding. Experimental sorcery, possible exploitation. I'm not exploiting Skrillex. No, he's exploiting YOU. No. Wake the fuck up. No. (Stop repeating yourself) Wake up; you're being manipulated. By Skrillex? Cool. By whatever's manipulating Skrillex. Alright. Alright? You're part of a machine. So? “SO?” You're this comfortable having given your soul up to the devil. I haven't done that. Do you know what it takes to achieve that of which you so covet? Money. And? Power. Go on. Fame. So, calculate. It adds up the same either way. Skrillex isn't real. Maybe not, but Sonny Moore is-- Is, what-- Is “who”... “Who…” I love. What? --But that's all I know. That's it? Yes. Elaborate. Can't. What do you mean? Well, it goes like this: This is insanity. I've been through every wormhole, every parallel, every revolutionary subconscious thought, every world, every realm, every lifetime...and at the end of the day--or the beginning, depending-- it's really all the same question, and the same answer--over and over again; From the Beginning to the End. It is infinite. Everything is Everything. Quickly, tell me-- What, now? What goes on a Skrillex Pizza? Nothing, because it's not a thing! It is not. It isn't! Stop arguing at get to work. On what? On building Building What [The] Skrillex. How in the fuck am I supposed to do that? How in the fuck did you get to be a vegetarian? It just happened. So. So… Are you really a vegetarian? ___ Why did you do this? I didn't do this! You did this! I didn't do this! Why would I do this? How could you! I didn't! What the fuck is HE doing here? What the fuck. You need to stop this. I can't stop. What did you DO. Exactly what I had to. Shasta! Who the fuck is that? That's that bitch. I told you it was Shasta. Who the fuck is Shasta. What show is this? Where is Skrillex? FUCK SKR— Wait, what show is this? INT. THE VOID. DAY & NIGHT. I remember the first time I ever realized, I could love anyone in the world, if they needed me to—or, if they just gave me the chance. Or if I got the chance. Or, if there was a chance. And, if there was a chance, and it was supposed to happen, it always would—especially if I wanted it— But definitely, if I needed it. But, what is is “if”? And, what is “supposed”? What is it to “want”? And what's a “need”? Now I know— or at least pretend to. Because, the more it is I think I know, the actual less I feel that I actually do; None the wiser, I am what I always was— And God is, as I am. Sunni Blu becomes a popular androgynous rapper, as as s/he rises to fame is forced to take on a mre masculine persona to monetize thiher music. After releasing a series of Skrillex diss-tracks, and music aimed at OWSLA's top dogs, a feud between Skrillex and Sunni Blu, or rather their ‘teams' breaks out into the media. After Skrillex is hacked and left with his entire music collection missing, it is presumed the attack and disappearance of his hard drives was orchestrated by Sunni; After his unreleased music is leaked and the damage is deemed ‘irreparable' The Skrillex Project is forced to close, and the artist himself disappeared into obscurity-- after hearing one of his unreleased tracks used for one of Sunni Blu's hits, he( ‘*the fictional Skrillex*) secretly attends one of Sunni's concerts; Sunni Blu spots him in a large crowd and the two brawl; Skrillex with the upper hand after Sunni draws back from a bloody nose and retreats; It is revealed that the unreleased Skrillex track which was ‘gifted' to her came from the stolen collection, unbeknownst to Sunni Blu Although Sunni Blu's true identity has yet to be revealed to more than Dillon Francis, beside the publicity and management who have been helping to keep her secret; Dillon Francis and Sunni Blu are cornered by paparazzi, revealing to the public that she is, in fact, a female; As allegations arise that Sunni Blu is a transgender, rumors put a strain on Sunni Blu and Dillon Francis's collaborations… TBC. All of a sudden—or maybe, even, not so suddenly—I was Clark Kent—or whatever Superman's name was. I had been without contacts or glasses for quite some time, and had quite explicitly in one of my many letters to God—or really any holy power in a realm which might have received my charred requests—all the things I needed, and some of the things I very badly wanted—tightly bundled and wax-sealed with intention for nothing besides that of the greater good, or course, for myself or anyone else—set ablaze in the unforgiving streets of New York City, in secrecy at odd hours of the night; it hadn't been my actual intent to have to practice any magic at all, especially under the circumstances, it it seemed that someone nearly unmentionable at all, had hexed a nasty attack on my psyche—a satanic, demonic possession of the weak and feeble bodies around me, and unable to isolate in completion, I became vulnerable to such a wicked curse that it had altered my psychic morality—as one does not practition a counter-curse or attack , in my medicinal expertise, without first being provoked—as one military typically mustn't bomb another, or even it's own enemy without being first considerably attacked—and it was, at this point, indeed a terrible holy war. I pulled the stars into order I put the water to fountains, in mountaintops I don't know who I am either But you call me God, Agree, I'd not— But at least I love you I believe I was you once I'm awful sorry that I broke you I might have put the sun Just to far up and out of reach Believe me, see—I see you Doesn't matter what we try to do Unity is beautiful I live on the 8th floor I don't intend what I'm there for It doesn't feel bad though It doesn't feel bad though I don't know what you're after -Blū Do I scare you? Only a little. Huh. What? Nothing.. I hate you. ihateyou. Eventually, The Ascended Masters will intervene. They already have. Oh, Christ Almighty. He's not coming. [Answering Phone] Jesus Christ Almighty –WHERERU? I TOLD YOU I'D GET THERE GODDAMNIT. Fascinating. Do my eyes deceive me, Or Is there a secret between us: A secret illusion; Should I bury it, Or keep it neatly And unseen, Between my knees, And where you need me? Is there a thing that I should need, But never speak– I'll keep it in my sweet release To dream beliefs of evil Seen, aquamarine revines, And pulsing veins, –and stolen hearts, Not passing judgment, But just passing by To hide, to pass the time To find a high, Align in color Fly, Write another rhyme, Or wire fireflies a transfer of light, Like the eyes reflect to mine. WHY would you write this? WHY. I hate blue eyes. That's racist. No it isn't. Congratulations on making it into my aerospace, unscathed A coincidence, this is not. I have something for you. I don't need anything from you. That's because I gave you everything you need. Right. I have everything. RIght. So you should know whatever you need comes at a high price. What makes you think I need something. You said you have something for me? Yes I do. You don't seem the gift giving type. I'm not. So, what do you want from me? WHAT DO YOU WANT FROM ME? Oh. it' s another one. What's he need? Probably nothin, really Oh, it's something. This shouldn't be happening. I agree. why is this bothering me. Google it's self had deleted half my entry, which was admittedly sloppily thrown together, at nearly a full episode's length; probably for the best, as I was becoming more intolerant of my societal responsibility by the moment, and increasingly self destructive asa result. It was still chaotic; fame kept coming closer towards me and then leaping away, but not out of reach or out of sight, but rather than chase it, I merely calmly strode forward in a never-changing pace, not rushing and always careful to remain calm, even when filled with fury. I had become unrecognizably fit, chaste, and a remarkably healthy eater; I was all together well, besides in the areas of romance and sexuality of course. I was ready to pounce, but timing would be key, and patience the virtue; UH – “hehe” …I beg your pardon. “Hehe” Um… Fuck. Or “haha” “haha” … Just admit it. … Admit it already! –haha. Admit WHAT. This gets Levels. Nobody thought Patrice O Neal was a woman! I thought Patrice O Neal Was a Woman. Ah, fuck, I'm nobody. “Nobody” Is that Bob Saget? I swiped right on this dude, just cause he looked exactly like Bob Saget. Omg. Bob Saget! Fuck, that's right. EXT. THE W HOTEL, BEVERLY HILLS, DAY/ EXT . PODSHARE WESTWOOD ROOFTOP, DAY OH MY GOD, GUYS, LOOK: IT'S BOB SAGET. No it's not! Oh My God! Yeah IT IS! Fuck, really?! Bob Saget?! BOB SAGET! YO GUYS, IT'S BOB SAGET. It was, in fact, Bob Saget. Bob Saget's dead, right? Oh yeah, bud. That's it guys! No more dead celebrities! I'm coming with you! NO MORE GHOSTS. Look, I have something to tell you. UGH. COME ON. This is a weird superpower. EXT. GRAVEYARD, QUEENS, NY. DAY … … … Having fun yet? Alright! I have a question! What? When do I get to– Get to what? You know. V.O. Things I know about myself… I have a dominant personality, but am sexually submissive— I am monogamous. I know what I like — *Drill beat* Die in your sleep (Hope you die in your sleep) Die in your sleep (Betta die in your sleep) I look like a vacation. But k'm still on the clock (psyche) Countin my rocks And holdin my (unh) crotch You better watch your back —hold on your coughs Don't run in no crocs! (No!) I'm offset Now I'm upset l —I love you. Shut up, foo— I don't even love myself. …you told her?! I—yeah… What did she say?! She said “shut up, fool Been. Long time since I missed my exit HEY! [looks over slowly] I LIKE YOUR BALLS. [beat] [thumbs up] How do I not have “throwing elbows?!” BECAUSE YOURE NOT DOING YOUR JOB! Shut up, Jeff COME TO THE DARK SIDE WE HAVE COOKIES Half of Hollywood shows up at Joel's super nerdy Star Wars party The truth comes in glimpses; A shattered reality Scattered the ashes at malice, insanity— Actress, an actress; She laughs when she has to, l l l And last to leave, actually, After each practice Practice conspicuous, Conspiracy conspiracy Perspiration lyrics, affixed to the rhythms She sleeps at the regency, l Freedom for secrecy Believe, please believe me, my love l It was easy The truth comes in glimpses; A shattered reality Scattered the ashes at malice, insanity— Actress, an actress; She laughs when she has to, l l l And last to leave, actually, After each practice Practice conspicuous, Conspiracy conspiracy Perspiration lyrics, affixed to the rhythms She sleeps at the regency, l Freedom for secrecy Believe, please believe me, my love l It was easy Sunni BLU Tweety bird Mickey Mouse Betty boop I woke up like this But a little different I woke up a star Then became a planet I'm a hummingbird, but I don't like flying I might look alright, But I feel like dying I hate waking up at 5 am Just to be the first one at the gym I don't wanna do that shit again— Well, I might as well just stay up! I hate waking up at 5 am Just to take my goddamn medicine, but If I don't I'll feel like shit— Well, I might as well just stay up! I might as well just stay up! This is a recipe for disaster. No, this is a recipe for Skrillex. Oh. This is the recipe for disaster. Thanks, Dillon Francis. FOR WHAT? I remember the moment I became partially deaf. Or at least, in the synesthetic sense. Dillon Francis is delicious Come on let me lick it on a stick Give it to me like a big Meat popsicle Meat popsicle Meat popsicle Meat popsicle Sample: Willy winks* ITS WILLY WONKA Lol are we still doing the bit where the misspellings are like a, another entirely different dimension? Yeah. Haha. Yeah. —and the chocolate factory “Lick an orange. It tastes like an orange. The strawberries taste like strawberries! The snozzberries taste like snozzberries!” KATT WILLIAMS IS— WILLY WONKA. Oh hell naw! Don't look at me; I'm just a DJ, don't look at me— Shaking my head, but it don't mean nothing Don't know what you mean You don't even see me; I ain't even here! Invisibility, The MVP or VIP. It don't mean nothing Don't look at me! Shaking my head, but it don't mean nothing, Hey, Don't look at me; I'm just a DJ, man, I'. The life of the party I do know what you mean! Shaking my head, but it don't mean nothing I don't know what you mean— Hey, I ain't see nothing, nope Don't look at me I could get some work in; I got 12 minutes, God as my witness I work on my fitness And listen to — Simple Temptations and limited Intervals, Quick algorithmics, And tentative frequencies No more mentions for attention whores Like Kayla Lauren! I promise that's my last one, That bitch is boring, I'm not sorry but I'm soarin on my suorin While you're snoring on my metamorphosis Imm getting sworn in Don't look at me; I'm just a DJ, don't look at me— Shaking my head, but it don't mean nothing Don't know what you mean You don't even see me; I ain't even show up to work this week OG VIP ASAP MVP It don't mean nothing I'm just a DJ Don't look at me —- Hey Mr. wedding ring— I'll buy you a drink, You know, Like an old cream soda. Or a float, You can drink in the bucket seat Tell me, Mr. Wedding ring Do you have everything you need? I don't envy anything besides your energy and symphonies, Please Excuse this phony boner, I don't know if you're alone If this is Homer, I'm a poet, though— And not a poser Hey, Do you suppose you know the code For doors that open up; I walk a lonely road, But Frog and Toad are old And told me you'd be there to show me (Whatever) Woah Where am I supposed to go from here I'm nowhere, dear I'm Alice lost in wonderland And all her friends— Even the one in red Who wants her head (Where'd that come from) Yo! It's a real bad acid trip, I can't get a grip on reality Can't get off the grid at random, If you're being tracked By the feds and fandom Woah. I may be one of the greatest writers in history But will you remember me? My ex gets Under my skin with Champion fashion; It's in bad taste But I haven't had my own bathroom In half a millennium Im under persenium arches Sniffing cristanthimymums sampling Arsenio Hall Are you ip yet? I'm still enthralled with this story But yo! (Where's Unaavvi at) I haven't been to a show (Where's the party at) I should be gripping a pole (Where is Cardi at) But it takes all day to get back to the Bronx in the snow! Fuck New York when it's cold And it's always cold in New York When you don't know nobody And your only hobby is hobbling around in the hotel lobby Counting the robbers and gobblins A D Whitney's and Bobby's The ghosts and the zombies Everything hurts But everything heals, with time// Whatever that is; And whatever that means, It's means to an end, if you let it be So let it be But, it persists in lettering me; He becomes me in my sleep, In dreams I think I really need him, or something Or anyone, or anybody Anything, or something Anybody, anybody Excerpt From: “DJ AND CC TAKE HOLLYWOOD” Wait, CC—you're a sex addict?! I'm an everything addict! You know this! I didn't know! —Except pills; I hate pills. What? I've seen you take pills before. Case in point! Why didn't you just tell me? It doesn't exactly come up organically in conversation, Dillon. What?! We talk about sex all the time. Like, in general—but not fórreal! What the fuck! What the fuck?! Whats the difference?! If you have to ask, I feel like you're really not gonna like the answer, dog. — “WorstConversationEver” (Bong rips) Remember your dad's friend Tom? Oh my God. You fucked Tom?! NO! okay, cause— I sucked his dick while I pretended to mow the lawn! What the hell?! —and he still paid me. Whatthefuck. Yeah, fucked up. So who mowed the lawn?! He mowed his own lawn! This is the worst conversation ever. The crazy thing about this story is— There's a lot of crazy things about this story, actually. EXT. BASKETBALL COURT. DAY. Alright— shirts and skins —Shirt—Skin Shirt,Skin— Uhh! Nah. I wanna be “shirts” Why dude?! Your girl's mad hot! So?! So I know you got it goin on! Look at you! I'm mad rich! Yeah—but girls always cheat on flabby rich dudes! With hotter dudes. My girlfriend might be cheating on me! Yeah—She's not, though. How do you know? Cause I tried! Yeah. Take your shirt off. No—uh! How do you know she's just not into you! Because! He tried— HE tried! You sell out. And Andre tried— [ANDRE is tall (about 6'9 dark, and handsome] —you too, bro? [ANDRE shrugs nonchalantly] That's an NBA player— What the FUCK, YO. —and she said NO. ANDRE Yup. Shot me down. Oh really—from all the way up there?! Face it, man! You're fuckin hot! I don't like the way that sounds coming from you— Take your shirt off! Were you this aggressive with my girl?! Don't be like that… Nah— fuck you! Yo! C'mon, man— And you three! You're holding up the game getting mad over nothing. It's Hollywood! It's Beverly Hills! —Exactly my point! You're new here—you'll catch on. You know what! I'm shirts—you're skins—Game on. [SUNNI BLU goes beast mode and plays the dirtiest, most whoopass game in history—out of spite and anger of the toxic masculinity; this of course earns SUNNI BLU even more respect as a “man's man”] Later: as the owner of the clippers, sunni BLU trades “Andre” to the worst basketball team in history. SUPACREE buys DIPLO a glass house to replace the one he burned down in a crime of passion.] There, now, you'll stop throwing stones— Huh! AND. Everyone can see when you ugly cry. *humphs* Now, stop it! Is it supacree? Uh? Could be Sunni Blu. Sunni Blu is a dude— Sunni Blu is pretending to be a dude. Oh yeah, huh. Dang. Huh. Well, then. We've gotta consult The Big Book of Dillon Francis. Don't say that like it's some kind of guide book. It is a guidebook. To what?? To Dillon Francis! That's preposterous. Didn't you choose Sonny? Didn't I waste my time writing the great big book of Dillon Francis!? Touché. Might as well do something with it. I got it. THIS IS ENVIRONMENTALLY IRRESPONSIBLE. BURN IT ALL. You're gonna hurt someone's feelings. Yeah, my own. STOP TOUCHING THAT. Wait, where is— Fuck. What? Now I'm “that girl who fell in love with Skrillex” Lol, which one. Hum. The one who wrote a novel about it. Pick your poison. Rum. Not a rum and coke? No, just straight up—you know what? How much is the bottle? Uhhh. Just. [SUPACREE pours the remains of the bottle into a red solo cup.] Ugh. Come on. What! At least you're not “The Black Yoko Ono” How did you even find out about that one. Infinite what the fucks. Now the world's getting mad again, I wrote something damaging; Doors just start slamming at random, And coughing— Sounds of motorists passing, Just scrambling my brain, I'm insane, but at least I have plainly created What may be historical, one day— I've made a whole masterpiece, a symphony that easily outlives me, infinity— My body's just a body Rush a cop just got get off this awful planet; I don't want what comes with poverty and fat, I don't compete with Instagram models, And everyone does that— I'm not a catfish, facts are facts I use my camera just to document the interesting phenomena I happen to walk past; Saw Dillon Francis on a wall, and had to grant the wish he asked— But don't know what it is exactly, I'm just happening, actually— I probably need nap but now Insomniac's been tracking me; I happily allow it; I program myself with beats, So when I finally sleep, I dream in music sequences, or something— I don't know I might delete it upon listening to rampant white supremacy or privelege on repeat, But that's just me, Forgetting I'm the one in trouble, On the run, without a family So perception is reality, and mine is badly damaged— Damn Pasquale again, I had to re-decipher all the messages transmitted from imaginary friends, Collecting images in infrared *gasp* Okay, just—breathe… I can't! I have to wear a mask! It's mandatory—so is being black, I have to! But I'm not a rapper! Maybe I should talk to Chance, Or Marshall Mathers: They might have to answer To the questions that I can't afford to ask This automatic writing might just be the most Goddamned advanced evidence of intelligent inhabitants in other dimensions, or other planets Or all of the above, Or maybe just of Dillon Francis using magic, Which he got from— Oh, no, here it comes SK— Fuck this. Fuck this mother—FAWN. Are we out of F*cks, then? I floppin' guess! I thought you loved him. It is what it is. What is it? INFI— THE END. INFINITI! ...yes, mom? GET IN HERE, Huh? Don't say “huh”. Okay, what? Don't say “what” … … … ...welll, what do you want? What is this? *shrugs* INFINITY [ooh, with a ‘Y' that's how you know mom's angry this time] *COUGHS* Betcha his photographer's in love with him. Which one has the VooDoo Doll? There's a Skrillex VooDoo Doll? It's technically ‘Sonny' Aww. You'd be surprised at the shit these girls will— INFINITY. WHAT. What is THIS?! It's just—Skrillex. AFH. Now you're FUCKED. I thought we were out of FUCKS. That was FAUX. Awww: I see what you did there. Am I done now? What does Dillon Francis want?! —don't answer that. [whispering in ear.] That's not possible So. I shifted a consciousness into this rock. Why would—why? For good luck. Oh, this is a problem, But it turns out. HUH. Damn. I'm on one, I have blue balls, This is not fun. This is not fun. This is not fun. Okay; now you're done. So, that's it--? You really want to ride this Sinking Ship? If that's what this is, then I guess that says it. Says…? Says “I just bought a ticket to Titanic at Bass Canyon.” Is that where you bought it? Is it? Why would you give yourself in, for him? (For Anyone?) In. (Psh) I gave myself out. Out? Look at you. Look at me. I'd rather not. You know what it is You know what it is— You know what it is That's the business Comin in hot, like a chicken wing This ain't Toy Story—got no friend in me, You feelin me? Cold as Minnesota, I'm the ice queen Nice bling— Hollywood should buy this bitch a wedding ring Amohetemime Trick, you're a half, I'm the whole thing Whole Foods market, gotta own me No mink coat, I'm a vegan, Hocus Pocus, I'm three witches Okay, from the top Hello? This is Hollywood calling; We want the festival project We just wrote up the contract Come get your deposit: You're nominated for an Oscar Your Star On The Walk looks Awesome it's On Us Yeah? That's what's up I'll come up I'll come up I'll come up Say what's up That's my shite; I'm rep in the festival project Ya'll like “what's that?” I'll tel you all about it,—that's Coming up next Oh yeah, Oh yeah Tune in I'm On Welcome to your Hollywood life The good life Good life Welcome to the Hollywood life That's right That's right Welcome to your Hollywood life The good life Good life Welcome to the Hollywood life That's right That's right They call me young Hollywood, They robbed me good in Santa Monica And I so I got no address yet; But I'm coming up like one direction I just checked my reflection like: Mirror mirror on the wall I gotta go Hollywood's callin And I don't do this often Only when o bless the red carpet Comin in hot, like a chicken wing Call me Toy Story— got a friend in me, You feelin me? On the big screen livin out my dreams, I wrote my scenes, the Hollywood life: I neee I ride by On a tomeline I write, I like My nice things. The life I lead, Is ritghteous, I defy my means Applied IT, I might be AI, Fine my me; Cause all I see Is light I like, And I'm liking my Hollywood life, I think. Nice bling— Hollywood should buy this bitch a wedding ring Amohetemime Trick, you're a half, I'm the whole thing Whole Foods market, gotta own me No mink coat, I'm a vegan, Hocus Pocus, I'm three witches It's just some Hollywood shit Isn't it fabulous This is some Hollywood shiy Isn't it fabulous Comin in hot, like a chicken wing This ain't Toy Story—got no friend in me, You feelin me? Cold as Minnesota, I'm the ice queen Nice bling— Hollywood should buy this bitch a wedding ring Amohetemime Trick, you're a half, I'm the whole thing Whole Foods market, gotta own me No mink coat, I'm a vegan, Hocus Pocus, I'm three witches You know what it is You know what it is— You know what it is That's the business One door close. Then another door opens So sick flow, go home with a cold then Woah, Hoe—cold like some snow boots Pants so big, I can parachute PARACHUTE! Hoes look fake, like a blow up doll Harlem shake, i'm bout to blow up ya'll SAM ASH. HOLLYWOOD, CALIFORNIA. DAY. Do you have any Jog Wheels? Beg your pardon? Uh, Jog Wheels. “Jog Wheels” Yeah, you know, like (imitates DJ scratching) Oh, you mean these? (Entire room of DJ controllers) Yeah, but just–this (points to Jog Wheel) Oh, “Jog Wheels…” Yes. Jog Wheels. …Just “Jog Wheels?” …yes. No. [Leaving store with frustrated infuriation] AGH. BEFORE: Oh my God! We've been robbed! WHAT! OH MY GOD! WHAT! WHAT'D THEY TAKE?! – Have you tried Guitar Center? THEY TOOK MY JOG WHEELS. Bitch you mad? Mad at what? I'm still making money; I don't give a fuck Get my bag; Count it up I'm a dog— And you know I like it rough (Ruff ruff ruff) Where you from? Where you hood at? Keep it clsssy But I'm acting like a hood rat I'm a playa I got boss racks Call me north Cause I'm pointed where the moss at (Money) I am from Los Angeles I got all these fans and stuff I smoke on dat tangle I be at PINK buying bras n stuff I still shop at hollister The Bronx ain't got no Rosses Or hot topics But I bought this floss To drop it like a thot n stuff Bitch you mad? Mad at what? I'm still making money; I don't give a fuck Get my bag; Count it up I'm a dog— And you know I like it rough (Ruff ruff ruff) I show up Play some ratchet music I show up Play some ratchet music. In the booth I'm eating waffles. Had to force quit my serato Key: F It's such a wonderful feeling– leaving, release, sweet relief, Slowly bleeding out Dreaming, in peace With no reason to grieve–finallly– Freedom Mm-hmm mm-hmm Mmm-hmmm __ I'm so LA for no reason. Souls— So long, So gone, Almost The time has come to walk The time has come again to rise, Rise up The time has come to walk, come on The time that's come is ours, From now on Give me time to walk, An Hour or so A trot, the fox Time to run An hour or nothing The founder of the establishment The Tower of Babel Another arrangement The flounder, the fox, the horse Come one, come all, Come one, come now The walk or a run A gallop, or trot— the horse A crown for a gallon of water A gallon of water A gallon of water I know who you are my son; Come one, come all Come mother, come father Come dog, and come brother A sister, another All for a walk in the park I lost it All for a gallon of water A gallon of water Souls— So long, So gone, Almost The time has come to walk The time has come again to rise, Rise up The time has come to walk, come on The time that's come is ours, From now on Sonny left you out in the cold Sonny doesn't know what to do Sonny gotta very old soul, so Sonny's done away with the truth Sonny didn't open any doors Sonny's always sitting in the booth Sonny isn't coming for you, poor Sonny's so in love with Sunni Blu So be Sunni Blu So be Sunni Blu You'll see Sonny soon The universe is split into two, you know Who are you? (I told you) What do you do? (I just want to make music) So you do Don't go assuming you're consumed, dude Just renew You're a renewable Don't be confused if confucius say “Hey, just play to the tune “ Get a mop and a broom And a mic and a boom Rent a room somewhere for a month or two Just don't be stupid Cupid's run out of room So Sonny's just a man that I love Sonny means less, but he does too much Sonny's just human Sonny's got proof that Once you've got money, It's all for amusement Just be Sunni Blu, kid I should have kissed him. Flashback: Montage—Season 6 V.O. I have a massive headache. I can't stop thinking about Dillon Francis. I'm hungry but haven't been to the gym and don't want to risk getting fat; All my extra smalls fit, but my butt is getting bigger. My new job's alright, but I feel like a loser. LA broke is better than regular broke, but it would be nice not to be in debt. I feel like I need a hug or a really good fuck or maybe both and then a cuddle. I can't sleep and I hate all my roommates for just existing. I think I might be getting sick just from being around other people too much. I spent like $200 on protein and left almost all of it in Las Vegas. LA Fitness sucks but it's better than nothing; I really miss Equinox. It doesn't seem like anybody really cares about me. I'm Lonely all of a sudden. I've really been craving pancakes. A lot. Sometimes it seems like everything I've written is just a waste of time. I can't stop thinking about sex. Sometimes I think about sex with Dillon Francis. Skrillex isn't real. Nothing I seem to do adds up. I'm a loser. I keep checking my emails like something is going to change. Sometimes I feel like I'm about to be famous— I'm still hungry and thinking about a late night walk to LA Cafe; I really like their tater tots. I miss being a mom. Still thinking about LA CAFE but I already had Tocya Orgánica because the juice bar was closed when I got off work. I just want someone to love me. I thought I sold my soul but I still need love so I know it's still in there somewhere. I literally spend every day working just to pay for a room to share with four people. I almost had confidence before the Australian man came along. It's weird to think about how everything I've written is just sitting in my Google documents doing nothing. All the jobs I actually want to do are for people with beautiful bodies and mine is disgusting. There's No Rick and Morty with no Justin Roiland. There's No Pirates of The Caribbean with No Johnny Depp. There's no room for reality in Hollywood. {Drill Music Playing} EXT. DOWNTOWN LOS ANGELES. NIGHT DRAKE BELL enters the SMOKE SHOP Enter The Multiverse L E G E N D S The Legend of… “Looking Back” All of a sudden—or maybe, even, not so suddenly—I was Clark Kent—or whatever Superman's name was. I had been without contacts or glasses for quite some time, and had quite explicitly in one of my many letters to God—or really any holy power in a realm which might have received my charred requests—all the things I needed, and some of the things I very badly wanted—tightly bundled and wax-sealed with intention for nothing besides that of the greater good, or course, for myself or anyone else—set ablaze in the unforgiving streets of New York City, in secrecy at odd hours of the night; it hadn't been my actual intent to have to practice any magic at all, especially under the circumstances, and it seemed that someone nearly unmentionable at all, had hexed a nasty attack on my psyche—a satanic, demonic possession of the weak and feeble bodies around me, and unable to isolate in completion, I had become vulnerable to such a wicked curse that it had altered my psychic morality—as one does not practition a counter-curse or attack, in my own medicinal expertise, without first being provoked—as one military typically mustn't bomb another, or even it's own enemy without being first considerably attacked—and it was, at this point, indeed a terrible holy war. I had at the very least been able to return to regular gym sessions, though still not training as thoroughly as before; I had allowed myself to gain quite a bit of weight over the period of just a couple weeks, eating for the most part what I wanted out of comfort, especially having nearly starved and defaulted into severe malnutrition after eating nothing but bananas for a period which lasted something like three weeks—and without adequate protein intake, I had l lost quite a bit of muscle, not that, for the most part, the muscles that I had been building weren't there—in fact, I found myself, at least as of late, looking like any retired or untrained athlete that had let themselves gain atop the muscle they had built—fat now sitting on top of my larger muscles and making the weight gain look and feel even more hideous, and after several days of at least regular lifting and sauna, I still didn't feel like running, which would alleviate most of the gain mo

‘That one was hard', i thought loudly to myself, finishing one banana and reaching to quickly peel another–I had been famished, and by force of nature had broken the predominant rule of fast–not to interact with the public, and therefore had been quick to hurry the fast to a finish; now that it had been s long in the understanding of the spiritual connotations of fasting, i knew never to attempt a show–especially a long DJ set, without having eaten, especially well; I needed to maintain focus, and as my career began to shift heavily, I became quite religious to certain superstition and routine of course, never allowing myself to fall prey to anything too ridiculous; I had been thoroughly taken advantage of–and knew certainly by now there was no room for error or mistakes, misjudgement of character– and I myself, perhaps just a canvas–rather than an unfriendly mirror most would be unwilling to face. The last and first thing I had consumed had been coffee– a lightly brewed vanilla bean which had exceeded most of the coffee I had consumed during my time in new york by far –a daily staple and absolute necessity, learning harshly from having spent tolerance breaks and unwilling days without coffee begging God for a glimpse of light; Alas, it had come to the point in my adulthood that certain things were just part of me–and coffee was one of them, a welcome and at least usually warm antidote for what seemed to be more often than not a cold, heartless world. But today, the sun shone and spread light and joy into my heart and mind a I trekked the nearly one mile walk to a nearby asian fusion restaurant that I had avoided before, but now was unwilling to suffer the consequences of a 4-hour set during a fast in which I spent a devoted amount of time and energy in the early morning amidst the miserable and robotic drones of the early morning commute–I was at least happy to have poured through a decent chapter or two of the books that I had finally climbed from the plateau of reading–a book about the rich history of the underground–a well-written journey into the past of a world I loved, but had become so distant from, in my heart and mind, but never in my soul– my own collection of unique and eclectic mixtapes growing daily, my own skill surpassing even my expectations–but it wasn'tmy expectation that I needed to surpass: i had yet to attract the attention of the greats–or even the lower-level promoters and managers which would spark my entry into the dance-club scene, elevating my professional DJ career from playing in parties, bars, and strip clubs and into the actual raves, clubs, and festivals that my soul came from –and called back out to, between the lines and hidden subliminal messages coded deep in the basslines, drops, and 4-to-the-floor anthems I curated with such forceful thought and empathy into my sets and mixes–mixes made of course with love on the mind and deep in my soul but seemingly nowhere to be found, lost in translation and unrequited, reverberated in the emotional undertones of the music I played day in, and day out, sometimes with tears in my eyes, but always with God on my shoulders, most often whispering the next selection into my mind's eye – my music a leap in blind faith. ‘Fuck, I do feel better.' The Pad Thai hadn't been great at all, but it had been enough to soothe the intense waves of dissociative dissolution and disconnect that came with each and every passing fast–and with each one an honorable lesson in gratitude, for all that had come with my sacred journey: Now, I was a true DJ. I don't know why imm looking for Platinum delusions “I have a question”, Well, there goes your l answer l; There goes your skeleton, creeping out the back door— There goes your relevance, An acelance, A metaphor Is that what you asked for? You looked in the wrong mirror today Is this what you wanted or not? Delusions of grandeur Emotions and saw what you bought from the storefront Gobbler it up, and wanted more More important words, for the chauffeur Are you sure, dear On a short order Or a show with a shirt run You saw the short So you order it Abort mission at once— They'll call you up when all the smoke is up In the rooftop of the cathedral Is that what you wanted Is that what your question was? More discoveries, coming right up At water Michael makers in a room full of synthesizers you could only wish you were in It's fittinf, the description for the symptoms of schizophrenia If everything relates, it should be an easy diagnosis— But it isn't It's real as hell, But isn't I just want a feel for who you are So I can stop myself from loving your accomplishments And settle for less Like the rest of the talentless miscreants With financial constraints And too many problems To overcome Into abundance Your works is my music and I just dance to it; Meanwhile imm miserable and you're courting princesses Soon to be queens, co conspirators, aqua rain es And I'm still crying in the door idiots you opened and then left me in To sift though this Infinite Disaster of indifference I found you in the kitchen sink So was bound to drown you in it A katy for your baby again— A calamity of mastery, An actor for your Gem—another character I'd written out of affinity for abandonment Flattened my abdomen for him But still couldn't change my skin color If I wanted Dillon Francis seems more obnoxious than usual [DILLON FRANCIS BEING EXTRA] Mm–I don't think so. This is out of control. It's not out of control I'm in control This is out of control. we're going to play a game. What kind of game. A minigame. What does this game entail. haha. **sidenote: Laidback Luke is not laidback at all. He seems calm. That's just his demeanor. Haha. Okie. Whats wrong with al these guys Nobody sleeps here. What about him. He looks asleep. No. [waves hand gently] See he's– You're on in 5. [Suddenly, Very awake.] Oh wow. See. Superstar DJ. Well, fuck, man. What is this Just stand here What. For what Just– wait here. Wait?! For what?! Just – [Leaves] LAIDBACK LUKE (eyes) I don't like this. (eyes) I don't like this at all. MA, MORE COFFEE. WAAAT? MORE COFFEE, MA!!! Lol these guys again. I love these guys. How did we get here? Technically, we're still in a deadmau5 construct. I dont think he's okay. I Don't think anybody's okay. Are you okay? No. (eyes) … Oh. “Oh” What are you doing here. Whatever I'm doing. You're a madman. I fucking wish. Be careful now—- —careful for what— Don't you know—wishes come true. If that were the case I'd be the richest man in the world. —maybe you are. [A mysterious stone is presented.] What is this? [a myateriius half—smirk] Your fortune, sir. THIS IS OUTRAGEOUS. What—? You know what. The Lakers Won? Don't be smart! —but—I'm a genius! [he launches towards him with fury—a coffee table comes between the two men —now, you're a rational man— —AGHH— —I wouldn't expect you to succumb to such violence. If I don't kill you with my own hands, someone else will. —kill me? With your own hands? Someone else?! AGH!! [he crushes the coffee table] That was redwood! —it's still redwood. [he picks up a pointy table leg] Where is it? Where is what? I'm ugly Nobody loves me Somebody hug me Move over, You need a mother; I'm just your lover— You're lucky And woah I think I want some Timmy hos I catch the 40 Gross Everybody's broke What is this place? —is that still happening? The ashes, falling Almost forgot about the raindrops Something's calling me The bus is coming What day is it? Last summer, I suffered longer Last summer still isn't over Last summer I came back to make money And have none now Last summer, You laughed at me Last summer, I got my hat back Last summer I worked harder Last summer I sold my hatch back I have a whole bachelor's degree waiting for me At my bachelorette party (I never had one) I came to this country last summer With nothing but a gym bag And this hat on Though it might have been another one —I always have a hat on I like the way his legs are crossed And it's just so awful How lost in my thoughts I am I'm simply anonymous, Unworthy of womanhood Stopped in androgynous God, This is all of us calling We're lost again Someone took all of my coffee And poured it on top of my coffin —I'm sad, I've been here a long time Without good money —I'm sad, I've been here a long time I just keep writing —I'm sad I've been all alone, But I'm still made of stardust —I'm sad I've been here a long time I keep falling in lust with my projects I build matrixes— I just— thought you should know that I never had my own show before Why would I go back to Being the most affordable whore in sun valley Or something I've got stars in my eyes— But I guess I deserved that I shot myself in the head I guess this is the blow back A throwback You owe me money But I don't want money— I just want love But nobody loves the impartially ugly Satan said nobody loves me All dressed up as a Japanese lady Who couldn't contain me And tried to control me— But I have a hole in my head, you know It makes everyone quite uncomfortable. When I sat down on the bus, I just lost myself I just keep fighting off lust And biting my fingernail polish, and honestly—god? Just take my life Before I do I'm not suicidal I just can't buy things Right when I like to I just can't find the right guy To go home to So you know (So you know) (So you know) (So you know) I love you Victory, Victory ,Victory!!! Do you want to come with me? Victory, Victory Victory! I'm mobile now, Do you want me to pull up? Victory, Victory, Victory! If I pull up, Do you want to come with me? Victory, Victory, Victory! I just want you with me As I fight feelings of shame and disgust I'm in the window now Robbed of my lust And my last few dollars If only for the moment I'm in the window now Like a puppy I have to wonder If anybody wants me —apparently nobody loves me I'm in the window now Thinking about how Nothing I've ever done matters Not even this What a lovely display it is It is ironic, you know. I would kill myself tonight Just never to be reminded Of —- I would kill muself tonight If I could know that on the other side It was warm and bright And this life Never even happened I might kill myself tonight Or just ride it out And try to write about How I arrived here Something's apparently important Imports and exports Inbreds and ex husbands, wives And Ex doctors Sometimes I'm Michael There's a lot of love in this parking lot I never thought about how right or wrong I was Until I stopped and watched it al on camera Vandalism in a stolen prison The whole world revolves around a blue eyed white man The whole world revolves around his blue eyed children taking all my husbands The whole world revolves around a lousy dollar — All I've got is this flower; What can I buy with that ? The whole world's rotten Just like this Apple It's in my pocket And I'm gonna light it on fire On purpose (Or with purpose) Hello? Which phone did you call from? I don't have this number Excuse my stream of conciousness I was trying to fight off suicidal thoughts not so creatively This is my job, Like this is your job I look at the jaw I want what you want This is my planet we're on This is is my plan, I got lost in it Maybe I'm wrong, but I'm not You just want a nut with a butt I just want a bud [Sample, Dillon Francis: Hey Buddy! (The Coffee Run)] I'm not your buddy. Ah. Look at that car; I'm on a coffee run at McDonald's How much does it cost? A dollar, one— It's like putting gas in my car, I don't wanna I don't wanna I don't wanna Call Jimmy Fallon to borrow a dollar. It's a coffe run A coffee run A coffee run; You cough, I run You like? I'm fun The west was won by everything under the Sun, Run it Equinox+ (EP) Love brings me out of my shell; —I could love you, I I could love you, I Could love you, I Could love you, I love you I love you, I This isn't good for my health; If you don't love me,oh well — (I could love you, I) This is just passing the time, Count my dimes and, I'm wealthy, you build me up Shining, I wake you up Diamond of mine, I love you, I Love you I Do what I want most the time, Cause nothing else matters but Making you mine I, so what I want most the time I can't get out Out of my mind, Cause I love you I love you I, Wasting my time, I could love you but Nevermind Drunk, And I'm stumbling up to my apartment for The 30th time this month, My rent's due tomorrow, but I got it, Woah, I've got just enough Just to keep fuxkin up Getting fucked up And filling my cup Like it's something, But it's nothing, Not really Nothing, Not really Be good Work it out Come on Work it odd Be good Shake it off Work it out Come on Be good, Work it off, Work it out— Come on Be good Work it out Shake it off Come on — We all know There's a monster in there And it wants let out; All man, beware— Yeah We all know There's a monster in her— And, Someone will let it go Oh, Someone let it go Oh, no (oh yeah) Oh, no That's no good That's no good Oh no (Oh yeah) Oh no (Oh yeah!) No, no You just had to let it go You just had to let it go Oh, no! — I need time To rationalize my genius I can't write light this Alt right all white nationalists I can fantazize, right? I could die like this It's a damn good life What fucking time is it, anyway? Right? I can't rationalize, this Fascist rats at The Fashion district Bam, I had it— I had to get right, man I had to get God on my Mantras I fucked up tomorrow, I'm off in Toronto with problems And dogma— Who's dog is this Tied up at the Whole Foods market I tried it, I died in the in I can't idolize idols, man Cry, though, Dip my bicoff in Chiapas coffee All pissed off, Woah It's the wrong morning to wallow in Caught me off guard at the offering Sha, there's no mother here, No other one, You're wrong God, I stopped to cross at all of them, I suffered when I swallowed, Rah, What's wrong? I'm feeling solemn on my sodomist Wishes of This centrifugal —‘swimming with the fishes, Get it? Woah, It's a whole open world of Wizards and witches I wish I could ditch this —the center or attention is this city— That's Alex Tribec, for the record Fuck the TriBeCa fest Rest in Los Angeles Rest in peace Barbra Hah— I've got all of em This is an awful lot of mantras, Stars and Stripes. God; I lost it at the Oscar's, Turn me on, or off I'm all of it Or not What was the cost of this? An awful lot of mantras, stars, And crosswalks, To stop dead in the center of “I'm miserable That's Hollywood for you, God, That's Hollywood, That's where we dropped you off — Have you had enough, yet? How was is? Enough! I'm not even fully up yet! Fuck, It was loveless, All up in ashes, I told ya, That “fun is a friend of the devil “ Burn in sense, Just rub out the sense Have my lips on your hips, Just rotate, As the earth did, In difference, she has Impatience is his imperfection “Eventually,” She says, “I'll see him” He tends to agree, Within reason— Winter breezes and freedom, This season Envy leaves, But she's gonna get even Come in threes, And maybe, We'll see then. Come to the surface, Come up— Don't give up yet Give what you've got; Half a lung, And the other is under— Come on, Come up, Come all— Come, you're walking on water! No wonder they call for you On earth — (We've got a Hot One, for you) Have you ever wondered What's wrong with us all? Fuck— Hollywood's calling, I don't have my phone on me Hollywood called, But your voice Mail is full, What? I finally picked up; The message at the tone, Was in Morse code Billy fit the Playbill, I signed it “usnavi” Yo, You look just like me A sacrifice? A sacrifice, I said, I'm red, I'm jealous like I've never been That's right, blue eyes then Next lifetime Fu— They robbed me of all my art As a hobby Worshipped for All I've got Not a god yet, but Gotta be working on something That's all of it, Gotta be knocking it off, Full of gossip and God, I want love But it's not in the cards, huh New Joan Of Ark, Where's the war That you wanted Not enough talk, But I've done enough walking Gosh, Two thumbs up, All applause from the audience That what you wanted? Yeah! “God I want love but it's not in the cards yet” That's what you wanted? Yeah! That's what you wanted {Enter The Multiverse} [The Festival Project.™] COPYRIGHT © THE FESTIVAL PROJECT 2023 ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. © -U.

‘That one was hard', i thought loudly to myself, finishing one banana and reaching to quickly peel another–I had been famished, and by force of nature had broken the predominant rule of fast–not to interact with the public, and therefore had been quick to hurry the fast to a finish; now that it had been s long in the understanding of the spiritual connotations of fasting, i knew never to attempt a show–especially a long DJ set, without having eaten, especially well; I needed to maintain focus, and as my career began to shift heavily, I became quite religious to certain superstition and routine of course, never allowing myself to fall prey to anything too ridiculous; I had been thoroughly taken advantage of–and knew certainly by now there was no room for error or mistakes, misjudgement of character– and I myself, perhaps just a canvas–rather than an unfriendly mirror most would be unwilling to face. The last and first thing I had consumed had been coffee– a lightly brewed vanilla bean which had exceeded most of the coffee I had consumed during my time in new york by far –a daily staple and absolute necessity, learning harshly from having spent tolerance breaks and unwilling days without coffee begging God for a glimpse of light; Alas, it had come to the point in my adulthood that certain things were just part of me–and coffee was one of them, a welcome and at least usually warm antidote for what seemed to be more often than not a cold, heartless world. But today, the sun shone and spread light and joy into my heart and mind a I trekked the nearly one mile walk to a nearby asian fusion restaurant that I had avoided before, but now was unwilling to suffer the consequences of a 4-hour set during a fast in which I spent a devoted amount of time and energy in the early morning amidst the miserable and robotic drones of the early morning commute–I was at least happy to have poured through a decent chapter or two of the books that I had finally climbed from the plateau of reading–a book about the rich history of the underground–a well-written journey into the past of a world I loved, but had become so distant from, in my heart and mind, but never in my soul– my own collection of unique and eclectic mixtapes growing daily, my own skill surpassing even my expectations–but it wasn'tmy expectation that I needed to surpass: i had yet to attract the attention of the greats–or even the lower-level promoters and managers which would spark my entry into the dance-club scene, elevating my professional DJ career from playing in parties, bars, and strip clubs and into the actual raves, clubs, and festivals that my soul came from –and called back out to, between the lines and hidden subliminal messages coded deep in the basslines, drops, and 4-to-the-floor anthems I curated with such forceful thought and empathy into my sets and mixes–mixes made of course with love on the mind and deep in my soul but seemingly nowhere to be found, lost in translation and unrequited, reverberated in the emotional undertones of the music I played day in, and day out, sometimes with tears in my eyes, but always with God on my shoulders, most often whispering the next selection into my mind's eye – my music a leap in blind faith. ‘Fuck, I do feel better.' The Pad Thai hadn't been great at all, but it had been enough to soothe the intense waves of dissociative dissolution and disconnect that came with each and every passing fast–and with each one an honorable lesson in gratitude, for all that had come with my sacred journey: Now, I was a true DJ. I don't know why imm looking for Platinum delusions “I have a question”, Well, there goes your l answer l; There goes your skeleton, creeping out the back door— There goes your relevance, An acelance, A metaphor Is that what you asked for? You looked in the wrong mirror today Is this what you wanted or not? Delusions of grandeur Emotions and saw what you bought from the storefront Gobbler it up, and wanted more More important words, for the chauffeur Are you sure, dear On a short order Or a show with a shirt run You saw the short So you order it Abort mission at once— They'll call you up when all the smoke is up In the rooftop of the cathedral Is that what you wanted Is that what your question was? More discoveries, coming right up At water Michael makers in a room full of synthesizers you could only wish you were in It's fittinf, the description for the symptoms of schizophrenia If everything relates, it should be an easy diagnosis— But it isn't It's real as hell, But isn't I just want a feel for who you are So I can stop myself from loving your accomplishments And settle for less Like the rest of the talentless miscreants With financial constraints And too many problems To overcome Into abundance Your works is my music and I just dance to it; Meanwhile imm miserable and you're courting princesses Soon to be queens, co conspirators, aqua rain es And I'm still crying in the door idiots you opened and then left me in To sift though this Infinite Disaster of indifference I found you in the kitchen sink So was bound to drown you in it A katy for your baby again— A calamity of mastery, An actor for your Gem—another character I'd written out of affinity for abandonment Flattened my abdomen for him But still couldn't change my skin color If I wanted Dillon Francis seems more obnoxious than usual [DILLON FRANCIS BEING EXTRA] Mm–I don't think so. This is out of control. It's not out of control I'm in control This is out of control. we're going to play a game. What kind of game. A minigame. What does this game entail. haha. **sidenote: Laidback Luke is not laidback at all. He seems calm. That's just his demeanor. Haha. Okie. Whats wrong with al these guys Nobody sleeps here. What about him. He looks asleep. No. [waves hand gently] See he's– You're on in 5. [Suddenly, Very awake.] Oh wow. See. Superstar DJ. Well, fuck, man. What is this Just stand here What. For what Just– wait here. Wait?! For what?! Just – [Leaves] LAIDBACK LUKE (eyes) I don't like this. (eyes) I don't like this at all. MA, MORE COFFEE. WAAAT? MORE COFFEE, MA!!! Lol these guys again. I love these guys. How did we get here? Technically, we're still in a deadmau5 construct. I dont think he's okay. I Don't think anybody's okay. Are you okay? No. (eyes) … Oh. “Oh” What are you doing here. Whatever I'm doing. You're a madman. I fucking wish. Be careful now—- —careful for what— Don't you know—wishes come true. If that were the case I'd be the richest man in the world. —maybe you are. [A mysterious stone is presented.] What is this? [a myateriius half—smirk] Your fortune, sir. THIS IS OUTRAGEOUS. What—? You know what. The Lakers Won? Don't be smart! —but—I'm a genius! [he launches towards him with fury—a coffee table comes between the two men —now, you're a rational man— —AGHH— —I wouldn't expect you to succumb to such violence. If I don't kill you with my own hands, someone else will. —kill me? With your own hands? Someone else?! AGH!! [he crushes the coffee table] That was redwood! —it's still redwood. [he picks up a pointy table leg] Where is it? Where is what? I'm ugly Nobody loves me Somebody hug me Move over, You need a mother; I'm just your lover— You're lucky And woah I think I want some Timmy hos I catch the 40 Gross Everybody's broke What is this place? —is that still happening? The ashes, falling Almost forgot about the raindrops Something's calling me The bus is coming What day is it? Last summer, I suffered longer Last summer still isn't over Last summer I came back to make money And have none now Last summer, You laughed at me Last summer, I got my hat back Last summer I worked harder Last summer I sold my hatch back I have a whole bachelor's degree waiting for me At my bachelorette party (I never had one) I came to this country last summer With nothing but a gym bag And this hat on Though it might have been another one —I always have a hat on I like the way his legs are crossed And it's just so awful How lost in my thoughts I am I'm simply anonymous, Unworthy of womanhood Stopped in androgynous God, This is all of us calling We're lost again Someone took all of my coffee And poured it on top of my coffin —I'm sad, I've been here a long time Without good money —I'm sad, I've been here a long time I just keep writing —I'm sad I've been all alone, But I'm still made of stardust —I'm sad I've been here a long time I keep falling in lust with my projects I build matrixes— I just— thought you should know that I never had my own show before Why would I go back to Being the most affordable whore in sun valley Or something I've got stars in my eyes— But I guess I deserved that I shot myself in the head I guess this is the blow back A throwback You owe me money But I don't want money— I just want love But nobody loves the impartially ugly Satan said nobody loves me All dressed up as a Japanese lady Who couldn't contain me And tried to control me— But I have a hole in my head, you know It makes everyone quite uncomfortable. When I sat down on the bus, I just lost myself I just keep fighting off lust And biting my fingernail polish, and honestly—god? Just take my life Before I do I'm not suicidal I just can't buy things Right when I like to I just can't find the right guy To go home to So you know (So you know) (So you know) (So you know) I love you Victory, Victory ,Victory!!! Do you want to come with me? Victory, Victory Victory! I'm mobile now, Do you want me to pull up? Victory, Victory, Victory! If I pull up, Do you want to come with me? Victory, Victory, Victory! I just want you with me As I fight feelings of shame and disgust I'm in the window now Robbed of my lust And my last few dollars If only for the moment I'm in the window now Like a puppy I have to wonder If anybody wants me —apparently nobody loves me I'm in the window now Thinking about how Nothing I've ever done matters Not even this What a lovely display it is It is ironic, you know. I would kill myself tonight Just never to be reminded Of —- I would kill muself tonight If I could know that on the other side It was warm and bright And this life Never even happened I might kill myself tonight Or just ride it out And try to write about How I arrived here Something's apparently important Imports and exports Inbreds and ex husbands, wives And Ex doctors Sometimes I'm Michael There's a lot of love in this parking lot I never thought about how right or wrong I was Until I stopped and watched it al on camera Vandalism in a stolen prison The whole world revolves around a blue eyed white man The whole world revolves around his blue eyed children taking all my husbands The whole world revolves around a lousy dollar — All I've got is this flower; What can I buy with that ? The whole world's rotten Just like this Apple It's in my pocket And I'm gonna light it on fire On purpose (Or with purpose) Hello? Which phone did you call from? I don't have this number Excuse my stream of conciousness I was trying to fight off suicidal thoughts not so creatively This is my job, Like this is your job I look at the jaw I want what you want This is my planet we're on This is is my plan, I got lost in it Maybe I'm wrong, but I'm not You just want a nut with a butt I just want a bud [Sample, Dillon Francis: Hey Buddy! (The Coffee Run)] I'm not your buddy. Ah. Look at that car; I'm on a coffee run at McDonald's How much does it cost? A dollar, one— It's like putting gas in my car, I don't wanna I don't wanna I don't wanna Call Jimmy Fallon to borrow a dollar. It's a coffe run A coffee run A coffee run; You cough, I run You like? I'm fun The west was won by everything under the Sun, Run it Equinox+ (EP) Love brings me out of my shell; —I could love you, I I could love you, I Could love you, I Could love you, I love you I love you, I This isn't good for my health; If you don't love me,oh well — (I could love you, I) This is just passing the time, Count my dimes and, I'm wealthy, you build me up Shining, I wake you up Diamond of mine, I love you, I Love you I Do what I want most the time, Cause nothing else matters but Making you mine I, so what I want most the time I can't get out Out of my mind, Cause I love you I love you I, Wasting my time, I could love you but Nevermind Drunk, And I'm stumbling up to my apartment for The 30th time this month, My rent's due tomorrow, but I got it, Woah, I've got just enough Just to keep fuxkin up Getting fucked up And filling my cup Like it's something, But it's nothing, Not really Nothing, Not really Be good Work it out Come on Work it odd Be good Shake it off Work it out Come on Be good, Work it off, Work it out— Come on Be good Work it out Shake it off Come on — We all know There's a monster in there And it wants let out; All man, beware— Yeah We all know There's a monster in her— And, Someone will let it go Oh, Someone let it go Oh, no (oh yeah) Oh, no That's no good That's no good Oh no (Oh yeah) Oh no (Oh yeah!) No, no You just had to let it go You just had to let it go Oh, no! — I need time To rationalize my genius I can't write light this Alt right all white nationalists I can fantazize, right? I could die like this It's a damn good life What fucking time is it, anyway? Right? I can't rationalize, this Fascist rats at The Fashion district Bam, I had it— I had to get right, man I had to get God on my Mantras I fucked up tomorrow, I'm off in Toronto with problems And dogma— Who's dog is this Tied up at the Whole Foods market I tried it, I died in the in I can't idolize idols, man Cry, though, Dip my bicoff in Chiapas coffee All pissed off, Woah It's the wrong morning to wallow in Caught me off guard at the offering Sha, there's no mother here, No other one, You're wrong God, I stopped to cross at all of them, I suffered when I swallowed, Rah, What's wrong? I'm feeling solemn on my sodomist Wishes of This centrifugal —‘swimming with the fishes, Get it? Woah, It's a whole open world of Wizards and witches I wish I could ditch this —the center or attention is this city— That's Alex Tribec, for the record Fuck the TriBeCa fest Rest in Los Angeles Rest in peace Barbra Hah— I've got all of em This is an awful lot of mantras, Stars and Stripes. God; I lost it at the Oscar's, Turn me on, or off I'm all of it Or not What was the cost of this? An awful lot of mantras, stars, And crosswalks, To stop dead in the center of “I'm miserable That's Hollywood for you, God, That's Hollywood, That's where we dropped you off — Have you had enough, yet? How was is? Enough! I'm not even fully up yet! Fuck, It was loveless, All up in ashes, I told ya, That “fun is a friend of the devil “ Burn in sense, Just rub out the sense Have my lips on your hips, Just rotate, As the earth did, In difference, she has Impatience is his imperfection “Eventually,” She says, “I'll see him” He tends to agree, Within reason— Winter breezes and freedom, This season Envy leaves, But she's gonna get even Come in threes, And maybe, We'll see then. Come to the surface, Come up— Don't give up yet Give what you've got; Half a lung, And the other is under— Come on, Come up, Come all— Come, you're walking on water! No wonder they call for you On earth — (We've got a Hot One, for you) Have you ever wondered What's wrong with us all? Fuck— Hollywood's calling, I don't have my phone on me Hollywood called, But your voice Mail is full, What? I finally picked up; The message at the tone, Was in Morse code Billy fit the Playbill, I signed it “usnavi” Yo, You look just like me A sacrifice? A sacrifice, I said, I'm red, I'm jealous like I've never been That's right, blue eyes then Next lifetime Fu— They robbed me of all my art As a hobby Worshipped for All I've got Not a god yet, but Gotta be working on something That's all of it, Gotta be knocking it off, Full of gossip and God, I want love But it's not in the cards, huh New Joan Of Ark, Where's the war That you wanted Not enough talk, But I've done enough walking Gosh, Two thumbs up, All applause from the audience That what you wanted? Yeah! “God I want love but it's not in the cards yet” That's what you wanted? Yeah! That's what you wanted {Enter The Multiverse} [The Festival Project.™] COPYRIGHT © THE FESTIVAL PROJECT 2023 ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. © -U.

‘That one was hard', i thought loudly to myself, finishing one banana and reaching to quickly peel another–I had been famished, and by force of nature had broken the predominant rule of fast–not to interact with the public, and therefore had been quick to hurry the fast to a finish; now that it had been s long in the understanding of the spiritual connotations of fasting, i knew never to attempt a show–especially a long DJ set, without having eaten, especially well; I needed to maintain focus, and as my career began to shift heavily, I became quite religious to certain superstition and routine of course, never allowing myself to fall prey to anything too ridiculous; I had been thoroughly taken advantage of–and knew certainly by now there was no room for error or mistakes, misjudgement of character– and I myself, perhaps just a canvas–rather than an unfriendly mirror most would be unwilling to face. The last and first thing I had consumed had been coffee– a lightly brewed vanilla bean which had exceeded most of the coffee I had consumed during my time in new york by far –a daily staple and absolute necessity, learning harshly from having spent tolerance breaks and unwilling days without coffee begging God for a glimpse of light; Alas, it had come to the point in my adulthood that certain things were just part of me–and coffee was one of them, a welcome and at least usually warm antidote for what seemed to be more often than not a cold, heartless world. But today, the sun shone and spread light and joy into my heart and mind a I trekked the nearly one mile walk to a nearby asian fusion restaurant that I had avoided before, but now was unwilling to suffer the consequences of a 4-hour set during a fast in which I spent a devoted amount of time and energy in the early morning amidst the miserable and robotic drones of the early morning commute–I was at least happy to have poured through a decent chapter or two of the books that I had finally climbed from the plateau of reading–a book about the rich history of the underground–a well-written journey into the past of a world I loved, but had become so distant from, in my heart and mind, but never in my soul– my own collection of unique and eclectic mixtapes growing daily, my own skill surpassing even my expectations–but it wasn'tmy expectation that I needed to surpass: i had yet to attract the attention of the greats–or even the lower-level promoters and managers which would spark my entry into the dance-club scene, elevating my professional DJ career from playing in parties, bars, and strip clubs and into the actual raves, clubs, and festivals that my soul came from –and called back out to, between the lines and hidden subliminal messages coded deep in the basslines, drops, and 4-to-the-floor anthems I curated with such forceful thought and empathy into my sets and mixes–mixes made of course with love on the mind and deep in my soul but seemingly nowhere to be found, lost in translation and unrequited, reverberated in the emotional undertones of the music I played day in, and day out, sometimes with tears in my eyes, but always with God on my shoulders, most often whispering the next selection into my mind's eye – my music a leap in blind faith. ‘Fuck, I do feel better.' The Pad Thai hadn't been great at all, but it had been enough to soothe the intense waves of dissociative dissolution and disconnect that came with each and every passing fast–and with each one an honorable lesson in gratitude, for all that had come with my sacred journey: Now, I was a true DJ. I don't know why imm looking for Platinum delusions “I have a question”, Well, there goes your l answer l; There goes your skeleton, creeping out the back door— There goes your relevance, An acelance, A metaphor Is that what you asked for? You looked in the wrong mirror today Is this what you wanted or not? Delusions of grandeur Emotions and saw what you bought from the storefront Gobbler it up, and wanted more More important words, for the chauffeur Are you sure, dear On a short order Or a show with a shirt run You saw the short So you order it Abort mission at once— They'll call you up when all the smoke is up In the rooftop of the cathedral Is that what you wanted Is that what your question was? More discoveries, coming right up At water Michael makers in a room full of synthesizers you could only wish you were in It's fittinf, the description for the symptoms of schizophrenia If everything relates, it should be an easy diagnosis— But it isn't It's real as hell, But isn't I just want a feel for who you are So I can stop myself from loving your accomplishments And settle for less Like the rest of the talentless miscreants With financial constraints And too many problems To overcome Into abundance Your works is my music and I just dance to it; Meanwhile imm miserable and you're courting princesses Soon to be queens, co conspirators, aqua rain es And I'm still crying in the door idiots you opened and then left me in To sift though this Infinite Disaster of indifference I found you in the kitchen sink So was bound to drown you in it A katy for your baby again— A calamity of mastery, An actor for your Gem—another character I'd written out of affinity for abandonment Flattened my abdomen for him But still couldn't change my skin color If I wanted Dillon Francis seems more obnoxious than usual [DILLON FRANCIS BEING EXTRA] Mm–I don't think so. This is out of control. It's not out of control I'm in control This is out of control. we're going to play a game. What kind of game. A minigame. What does this game entail. haha. **sidenote: Laidback Luke is not laidback at all. He seems calm. That's just his demeanor. Haha. Okie. Whats wrong with al these guys Nobody sleeps here. What about him. He looks asleep. No. [waves hand gently] See he's– You're on in 5. [Suddenly, Very awake.] Oh wow. See. Superstar DJ. Well, fuck, man. What is this Just stand here What. For what Just– wait here. Wait?! For what?! Just – [Leaves] LAIDBACK LUKE (eyes) I don't like this. (eyes) I don't like this at all. MA, MORE COFFEE. WAAAT? MORE COFFEE, MA!!! Lol these guys again. I love these guys. How did we get here? Technically, we're still in a deadmau5 construct. I dont think he's okay. I Don't think anybody's okay. Are you okay? No. (eyes) … Oh. “Oh” What are you doing here. Whatever I'm doing. You're a madman. I fucking wish. Be careful now—- —careful for what— Don't you know—wishes come true. If that were the case I'd be the richest man in the world. —maybe you are. [A mysterious stone is presented.] What is this? [a myateriius half—smirk] Your fortune, sir. THIS IS OUTRAGEOUS. What—? You know what. The Lakers Won? Don't be smart! —but—I'm a genius! [he launches towards him with fury—a coffee table comes between the two men —now, you're a rational man— —AGHH— —I wouldn't expect you to succumb to such violence. If I don't kill you with my own hands, someone else will. —kill me? With your own hands? Someone else?! AGH!! [he crushes the coffee table] That was redwood! —it's still redwood. [he picks up a pointy table leg] Where is it? Where is what? I'm ugly Nobody loves me Somebody hug me Move over, You need a mother; I'm just your lover— You're lucky And woah I think I want some Timmy hos I catch the 40 Gross Everybody's broke What is this place? —is that still happening? The ashes, falling Almost forgot about the raindrops Something's calling me The bus is coming What day is it? Last summer, I suffered longer Last summer still isn't over Last summer I came back to make money And have none now Last summer, You laughed at me Last summer, I got my hat back Last summer I worked harder Last summer I sold my hatch back I have a whole bachelor's degree waiting for me At my bachelorette party (I never had one) I came to this country last summer With nothing but a gym bag And this hat on Though it might have been another one —I always have a hat on I like the way his legs are crossed And it's just so awful How lost in my thoughts I am I'm simply anonymous, Unworthy of womanhood Stopped in androgynous God, This is all of us calling We're lost again Someone took all of my coffee And poured it on top of my coffin —I'm sad, I've been here a long time Without good money —I'm sad, I've been here a long time I just keep writing —I'm sad I've been all alone, But I'm still made of stardust —I'm sad I've been here a long time I keep falling in lust with my projects I build matrixes— I just— thought you should know that I never had my own show before Why would I go back to Being the most affordable whore in sun valley Or something I've got stars in my eyes— But I guess I deserved that I shot myself in the head I guess this is the blow back A throwback You owe me money But I don't want money— I just want love But nobody loves the impartially ugly Satan said nobody loves me All dressed up as a Japanese lady Who couldn't contain me And tried to control me— But I have a hole in my head, you know It makes everyone quite uncomfortable. When I sat down on the bus, I just lost myself I just keep fighting off lust And biting my fingernail polish, and honestly—god? Just take my life Before I do I'm not suicidal I just can't buy things Right when I like to I just can't find the right guy To go home to So you know (So you know) (So you know) (So you know) I love you Victory, Victory ,Victory!!! Do you want to come with me? Victory, Victory Victory! I'm mobile now, Do you want me to pull up? Victory, Victory, Victory! If I pull up, Do you want to come with me? Victory, Victory, Victory! I just want you with me As I fight feelings of shame and disgust I'm in the window now Robbed of my lust And my last few dollars If only for the moment I'm in the window now Like a puppy I have to wonder If anybody wants me —apparently nobody loves me I'm in the window now Thinking about how Nothing I've ever done matters Not even this What a lovely display it is It is ironic, you know. I would kill myself tonight Just never to be reminded Of —- I would kill muself tonight If I could know that on the other side It was warm and bright And this life Never even happened I might kill myself tonight Or just ride it out And try to write about How I arrived here Something's apparently important Imports and exports Inbreds and ex husbands, wives And Ex doctors Sometimes I'm Michael There's a lot of love in this parking lot I never thought about how right or wrong I was Until I stopped and watched it al on camera Vandalism in a stolen prison The whole world revolves around a blue eyed white man The whole world revolves around his blue eyed children taking all my husbands The whole world revolves around a lousy dollar — All I've got is this flower; What can I buy with that ? The whole world's rotten Just like this Apple It's in my pocket And I'm gonna light it on fire On purpose (Or with purpose) Hello? Which phone did you call from? I don't have this number Excuse my stream of conciousness I was trying to fight off suicidal thoughts not so creatively This is my job, Like this is your job I look at the jaw I want what you want This is my planet we're on This is is my plan, I got lost in it Maybe I'm wrong, but I'm not You just want a nut with a butt I just want a bud [Sample, Dillon Francis: Hey Buddy! (The Coffee Run)] I'm not your buddy. Ah. Look at that car; I'm on a coffee run at McDonald's How much does it cost? A dollar, one— It's like putting gas in my car, I don't wanna I don't wanna I don't wanna Call Jimmy Fallon to borrow a dollar. It's a coffe run A coffee run A coffee run; You cough, I run You like? I'm fun The west was won by everything under the Sun, Run it Equinox+ (EP) Love brings me out of my shell; —I could love you, I I could love you, I Could love you, I Could love you, I love you I love you, I This isn't good for my health; If you don't love me,oh well — (I could love you, I) This is just passing the time, Count my dimes and, I'm wealthy, you build me up Shining, I wake you up Diamond of mine, I love you, I Love you I Do what I want most the time, Cause nothing else matters but Making you mine I, so what I want most the time I can't get out Out of my mind, Cause I love you I love you I, Wasting my time, I could love you but Nevermind Drunk, And I'm stumbling up to my apartment for The 30th time this month, My rent's due tomorrow, but I got it, Woah, I've got just enough Just to keep fuxkin up Getting fucked up And filling my cup Like it's something, But it's nothing, Not really Nothing, Not really Be good Work it out Come on Work it odd Be good Shake it off Work it out Come on Be good, Work it off, Work it out— Come on Be good Work it out Shake it off Come on — We all know There's a monster in there And it wants let out; All man, beware— Yeah We all know There's a monster in her— And, Someone will let it go Oh, Someone let it go Oh, no (oh yeah) Oh, no That's no good That's no good Oh no (Oh yeah) Oh no (Oh yeah!) No, no You just had to let it go You just had to let it go Oh, no! — I need time To rationalize my genius I can't write light this Alt right all white nationalists I can fantazize, right? I could die like this It's a damn good life What fucking time is it, anyway? Right? I can't rationalize, this Fascist rats at The Fashion district Bam, I had it— I had to get right, man I had to get God on my Mantras I fucked up tomorrow, I'm off in Toronto with problems And dogma— Who's dog is this Tied up at the Whole Foods market I tried it, I died in the in I can't idolize idols, man Cry, though, Dip my bicoff in Chiapas coffee All pissed off, Woah It's the wrong morning to wallow in Caught me off guard at the offering Sha, there's no mother here, No other one, You're wrong God, I stopped to cross at all of them, I suffered when I swallowed, Rah, What's wrong? I'm feeling solemn on my sodomist Wishes of This centrifugal —‘swimming with the fishes, Get it? Woah, It's a whole open world of Wizards and witches I wish I could ditch this —the center or attention is this city— That's Alex Tribec, for the record Fuck the TriBeCa fest Rest in Los Angeles Rest in peace Barbra Hah— I've got all of em This is an awful lot of mantras, Stars and Stripes. God; I lost it at the Oscar's, Turn me on, or off I'm all of it Or not What was the cost of this? An awful lot of mantras, stars, And crosswalks, To stop dead in the center of “I'm miserable That's Hollywood for you, God, That's Hollywood, That's where we dropped you off — Have you had enough, yet? How was is? Enough! I'm not even fully up yet! Fuck, It was loveless, All up in ashes, I told ya, That “fun is a friend of the devil “ Burn in sense, Just rub out the sense Have my lips on your hips, Just rotate, As the earth did, In difference, she has Impatience is his imperfection “Eventually,” She says, “I'll see him” He tends to agree, Within reason— Winter breezes and freedom, This season Envy leaves, But she's gonna get even Come in threes, And maybe, We'll see then. Come to the surface, Come up— Don't give up yet Give what you've got; Half a lung, And the other is under— Come on, Come up, Come all— Come, you're walking on water! No wonder they call for you On earth — (We've got a Hot One, for you) Have you ever wondered What's wrong with us all? Fuck— Hollywood's calling, I don't have my phone on me Hollywood called, But your voice Mail is full, What? I finally picked up; The message at the tone, Was in Morse code Billy fit the Playbill, I signed it “usnavi” Yo, You look just like me A sacrifice? A sacrifice, I said, I'm red, I'm jealous like I've never been That's right, blue eyes then Next lifetime Fu— They robbed me of all my art As a hobby Worshipped for All I've got Not a god yet, but Gotta be working on something That's all of it, Gotta be knocking it off, Full of gossip and God, I want love But it's not in the cards, huh New Joan Of Ark, Where's the war That you wanted Not enough talk, But I've done enough walking Gosh, Two thumbs up, All applause from the audience That what you wanted? Yeah! “God I want love but it's not in the cards yet” That's what you wanted? Yeah! That's what you wanted {Enter The Multiverse} [The Festival Project.™] COPYRIGHT © THE FESTIVAL PROJECT 2023 ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. © -U.

‘That one was hard', i thought loudly to myself, finishing one banana and reaching to quickly peel another–I had been famished, and by force of nature had broken the predominant rule of fast–not to interact with the public, and therefore had been quick to hurry the fast to a finish; now that it had been s long in the understanding of the spiritual connotations of fasting, i knew never to attempt a show–especially a long DJ set, without having eaten, especially well; I needed to maintain focus, and as my career began to shift heavily, I became quite religious to certain superstition and routine of course, never allowing myself to fall prey to anything too ridiculous; I had been thoroughly taken advantage of–and knew certainly by now there was no room for error or mistakes, misjudgement of character– and I myself, perhaps just a canvas–rather than an unfriendly mirror most would be unwilling to face. The last and first thing I had consumed had been coffee– a lightly brewed vanilla bean which had exceeded most of the coffee I had consumed during my time in new york by far –a daily staple and absolute necessity, learning harshly from having spent tolerance breaks and unwilling days without coffee begging God for a glimpse of light; Alas, it had come to the point in my adulthood that certain things were just part of me–and coffee was one of them, a welcome and at least usually warm antidote for what seemed to be more often than not a cold, heartless world. But today, the sun shone and spread light and joy into my heart and mind a I trekked the nearly one mile walk to a nearby asian fusion restaurant that I had avoided before, but now was unwilling to suffer the consequences of a 4-hour set during a fast in which I spent a devoted amount of time and energy in the early morning amidst the miserable and robotic drones of the early morning commute–I was at least happy to have poured through a decent chapter or two of the books that I had finally climbed from the plateau of reading–a book about the rich history of the underground–a well-written journey into the past of a world I loved, but had become so distant from, in my heart and mind, but never in my soul– my own collection of unique and eclectic mixtapes growing daily, my own skill surpassing even my expectations–but it wasn'tmy expectation that I needed to surpass: i had yet to attract the attention of the greats–or even the lower-level promoters and managers which would spark my entry into the dance-club scene, elevating my professional DJ career from playing in parties, bars, and strip clubs and into the actual raves, clubs, and festivals that my soul came from –and called back out to, between the lines and hidden subliminal messages coded deep in the basslines, drops, and 4-to-the-floor anthems I curated with such forceful thought and empathy into my sets and mixes–mixes made of course with love on the mind and deep in my soul but seemingly nowhere to be found, lost in translation and unrequited, reverberated in the emotional undertones of the music I played day in, and day out, sometimes with tears in my eyes, but always with God on my shoulders, most often whispering the next selection into my mind's eye – my music a leap in blind faith. ‘Fuck, I do feel better.' The Pad Thai hadn't been great at all, but it had been enough to soothe the intense waves of dissociative dissolution and disconnect that came with each and every passing fast–and with each one an honorable lesson in gratitude, for all that had come with my sacred journey: Now, I was a true DJ. I don't know why imm looking for Platinum delusions “I have a question”, Well, there goes your l answer l; There goes your skeleton, creeping out the back door— There goes your relevance, An acelance, A metaphor Is that what you asked for? You looked in the wrong mirror today Is this what you wanted or not? Delusions of grandeur Emotions and saw what you bought from the storefront Gobbler it up, and wanted more More important words, for the chauffeur Are you sure, dear On a short order Or a show with a shirt run You saw the short So you order it Abort mission at once— They'll call you up when all the smoke is up In the rooftop of the cathedral Is that what you wanted Is that what your question was? More discoveries, coming right up At water Michael makers in a room full of synthesizers you could only wish you were in It's fittinf, the description for the symptoms of schizophrenia If everything relates, it should be an easy diagnosis— But it isn't It's real as hell, But isn't I just want a feel for who you are So I can stop myself from loving your accomplishments And settle for less Like the rest of the talentless miscreants With financial constraints And too many problems To overcome Into abundance Your works is my music and I just dance to it; Meanwhile imm miserable and you're courting princesses Soon to be queens, co conspirators, aqua rain es And I'm still crying in the door idiots you opened and then left me in To sift though this Infinite Disaster of indifference I found you in the kitchen sink So was bound to drown you in it A katy for your baby again— A calamity of mastery, An actor for your Gem—another character I'd written out of affinity for abandonment Flattened my abdomen for him But still couldn't change my skin color If I wanted Dillon Francis seems more obnoxious than usual [DILLON FRANCIS BEING EXTRA] Mm–I don't think so. This is out of control. It's not out of control I'm in control This is out of control. we're going to play a game. What kind of game. A minigame. What does this game entail. haha. **sidenote: Laidback Luke is not laidback at all. He seems calm. That's just his demeanor. Haha. Okie. Whats wrong with al these guys Nobody sleeps here. What about him. He looks asleep. No. [waves hand gently] See he's– You're on in 5. [Suddenly, Very awake.] Oh wow. See. Superstar DJ. Well, fuck, man. What is this Just stand here What. For what Just– wait here. Wait?! For what?! Just – [Leaves] LAIDBACK LUKE (eyes) I don't like this. (eyes) I don't like this at all. MA, MORE COFFEE. WAAAT? MORE COFFEE, MA!!! Lol these guys again. I love these guys. How did we get here? Technically, we're still in a deadmau5 construct. I dont think he's okay. I Don't think anybody's okay. Are you okay? No. (eyes) … Oh. “Oh” What are you doing here. Whatever I'm doing. You're a madman. I fucking wish. Be careful now—- —careful for what— Don't you know—wishes come true. If that were the case I'd be the richest man in the world. —maybe you are. [A mysterious stone is presented.] What is this? [a myateriius half—smirk] Your fortune, sir. THIS IS OUTRAGEOUS. What—? You know what. The Lakers Won? Don't be smart! —but—I'm a genius! [he launches towards him with fury—a coffee table comes between the two men —now, you're a rational man— —AGHH— —I wouldn't expect you to succumb to such violence. If I don't kill you with my own hands, someone else will. —kill me? With your own hands? Someone else?! AGH!! [he crushes the coffee table] That was redwood! —it's still redwood. [he picks up a pointy table leg] Where is it? Where is what? I'm ugly Nobody loves me Somebody hug me Move over, You need a mother; I'm just your lover— You're lucky And woah I think I want some Timmy hos I catch the 40 Gross Everybody's broke What is this place? —is that still happening? The ashes, falling Almost forgot about the raindrops Something's calling me The bus is coming What day is it? Last summer, I suffered longer Last summer still isn't over Last summer I came back to make money And have none now Last summer, You laughed at me Last summer, I got my hat back Last summer I worked harder Last summer I sold my hatch back I have a whole bachelor's degree waiting for me At my bachelorette party (I never had one) I came to this country last summer With nothing but a gym bag And this hat on Though it might have been another one —I always have a hat on I like the way his legs are crossed And it's just so awful How lost in my thoughts I am I'm simply anonymous, Unworthy of womanhood Stopped in androgynous God, This is all of us calling We're lost again Someone took all of my coffee And poured it on top of my coffin —I'm sad, I've been here a long time Without good money —I'm sad, I've been here a long time I just keep writing —I'm sad I've been all alone, But I'm still made of stardust —I'm sad I've been here a long time I keep falling in lust with my projects I build matrixes— I just— thought you should know that I never had my own show before Why would I go back to Being the most affordable whore in sun valley Or something I've got stars in my eyes— But I guess I deserved that I shot myself in the head I guess this is the blow back A throwback You owe me money But I don't want money— I just want love But nobody loves the impartially ugly Satan said nobody loves me All dressed up as a Japanese lady Who couldn't contain me And tried to control me— But I have a hole in my head, you know It makes everyone quite uncomfortable. When I sat down on the bus, I just lost myself I just keep fighting off lust And biting my fingernail polish, and honestly—god? Just take my life Before I do I'm not suicidal I just can't buy things Right when I like to I just can't find the right guy To go home to So you know (So you know) (So you know) (So you know) I love you Victory, Victory ,Victory!!! Do you want to come with me? Victory, Victory Victory! I'm mobile now, Do you want me to pull up? Victory, Victory, Victory! If I pull up, Do you want to come with me? Victory, Victory, Victory! I just want you with me As I fight feelings of shame and disgust I'm in the window now Robbed of my lust And my last few dollars If only for the moment I'm in the window now Like a puppy I have to wonder If anybody wants me —apparently nobody loves me I'm in the window now Thinking about how Nothing I've ever done matters Not even this What a lovely display it is It is ironic, you know. I would kill myself tonight Just never to be reminded Of —- I would kill muself tonight If I could know that on the other side It was warm and bright And this life Never even happened I might kill myself tonight Or just ride it out And try to write about How I arrived here Something's apparently important Imports and exports Inbreds and ex husbands, wives And Ex doctors Sometimes I'm Michael There's a lot of love in this parking lot I never thought about how right or wrong I was Until I stopped and watched it al on camera Vandalism in a stolen prison The whole world revolves around a blue eyed white man The whole world revolves around his blue eyed children taking all my husbands The whole world revolves around a lousy dollar — All I've got is this flower; What can I buy with that ? The whole world's rotten Just like this Apple It's in my pocket And I'm gonna light it on fire On purpose (Or with purpose) Hello? Which phone did you call from? I don't have this number Excuse my stream of conciousness I was trying to fight off suicidal thoughts not so creatively This is my job, Like this is your job I look at the jaw I want what you want This is my planet we're on This is is my plan, I got lost in it Maybe I'm wrong, but I'm not You just want a nut with a butt I just want a bud [Sample, Dillon Francis: Hey Buddy! (The Coffee Run)] I'm not your buddy. Ah. Look at that car; I'm on a coffee run at McDonald's How much does it cost? A dollar, one— It's like putting gas in my car, I don't wanna I don't wanna I don't wanna Call Jimmy Fallon to borrow a dollar. It's a coffe run A coffee run A coffee run; You cough, I run You like? I'm fun The west was won by everything under the Sun, Run it Equinox+ (EP) Love brings me out of my shell; —I could love you, I I could love you, I Could love you, I Could love you, I love you I love you, I This isn't good for my health; If you don't love me,oh well — (I could love you, I) This is just passing the time, Count my dimes and, I'm wealthy, you build me up Shining, I wake you up Diamond of mine, I love you, I Love you I Do what I want most the time, Cause nothing else matters but Making you mine I, so what I want most the time I can't get out Out of my mind, Cause I love you I love you I, Wasting my time, I could love you but Nevermind Drunk, And I'm stumbling up to my apartment for The 30th time this month, My rent's due tomorrow, but I got it, Woah, I've got just enough Just to keep fuxkin up Getting fucked up And filling my cup Like it's something, But it's nothing, Not really Nothing, Not really Be good Work it out Come on Work it odd Be good Shake it off Work it out Come on Be good, Work it off, Work it out— Come on Be good Work it out Shake it off Come on — We all know There's a monster in there And it wants let out; All man, beware— Yeah We all know There's a monster in her— And, Someone will let it go Oh, Someone let it go Oh, no (oh yeah) Oh, no That's no good That's no good Oh no (Oh yeah) Oh no (Oh yeah!) No, no You just had to let it go You just had to let it go Oh, no! — I need time To rationalize my genius I can't write light this Alt right all white nationalists I can fantazize, right? I could die like this It's a damn good life What fucking time is it, anyway? Right? I can't rationalize, this Fascist rats at The Fashion district Bam, I had it— I had to get right, man I had to get God on my Mantras I fucked up tomorrow, I'm off in Toronto with problems And dogma— Who's dog is this Tied up at the Whole Foods market I tried it, I died in the in I can't idolize idols, man Cry, though, Dip my bicoff in Chiapas coffee All pissed off, Woah It's the wrong morning to wallow in Caught me off guard at the offering Sha, there's no mother here, No other one, You're wrong God, I stopped to cross at all of them, I suffered when I swallowed, Rah, What's wrong? I'm feeling solemn on my sodomist Wishes of This centrifugal —‘swimming with the fishes, Get it? Woah, It's a whole open world of Wizards and witches I wish I could ditch this —the center or attention is this city— That's Alex Tribec, for the record Fuck the TriBeCa fest Rest in Los Angeles Rest in peace Barbra Hah— I've got all of em This is an awful lot of mantras, Stars and Stripes. God; I lost it at the Oscar's, Turn me on, or off I'm all of it Or not What was the cost of this? An awful lot of mantras, stars, And crosswalks, To stop dead in the center of “I'm miserable That's Hollywood for you, God, That's Hollywood, That's where we dropped you off — Have you had enough, yet? How was is? Enough! I'm not even fully up yet! Fuck, It was loveless, All up in ashes, I told ya, That “fun is a friend of the devil “ Burn in sense, Just rub out the sense Have my lips on your hips, Just rotate, As the earth did, In difference, she has Impatience is his imperfection “Eventually,” She says, “I'll see him” He tends to agree, Within reason— Winter breezes and freedom, This season Envy leaves, But she's gonna get even Come in threes, And maybe, We'll see then. Come to the surface, Come up— Don't give up yet Give what you've got; Half a lung, And the other is under— Come on, Come up, Come all— Come, you're walking on water! No wonder they call for you On earth — (We've got a Hot One, for you) Have you ever wondered What's wrong with us all? Fuck— Hollywood's calling, I don't have my phone on me Hollywood called, But your voice Mail is full, What? I finally picked up; The message at the tone, Was in Morse code Billy fit the Playbill, I signed it “usnavi” Yo, You look just like me A sacrifice? A sacrifice, I said, I'm red, I'm jealous like I've never been That's right, blue eyes then Next lifetime Fu— They robbed me of all my art As a hobby Worshipped for All I've got Not a god yet, but Gotta be working on something That's all of it, Gotta be knocking it off, Full of gossip and God, I want love But it's not in the cards, huh New Joan Of Ark, Where's the war That you wanted Not enough talk, But I've done enough walking Gosh, Two thumbs up, All applause from the audience That what you wanted? Yeah! “God I want love but it's not in the cards yet” That's what you wanted? Yeah! That's what you wanted {Enter The Multiverse} [The Festival Project.™] COPYRIGHT © THE FESTIVAL PROJECT 2023 ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. © -U.

‘That one was hard', i thought loudly to myself, finishing one banana and reaching to quickly peel another–I had been famished, and by force of nature had broken the predominant rule of fast–not to interact with the public, and therefore had been quick to hurry the fast to a finish; now that it had been s long in the understanding of the spiritual connotations of fasting, i knew never to attempt a show–especially a long DJ set, without having eaten, especially well; I needed to maintain focus, and as my career began to shift heavily, I became quite religious to certain superstition and routine of course, never allowing myself to fall prey to anything too ridiculous; I had been thoroughly taken advantage of–and knew certainly by now there was no room for error or mistakes, misjudgement of character– and I myself, perhaps just a canvas–rather than an unfriendly mirror most would be unwilling to face. The last and first thing I had consumed had been coffee– a lightly brewed vanilla bean which had exceeded most of the coffee I had consumed during my time in new york by far –a daily staple and absolute necessity, learning harshly from having spent tolerance breaks and unwilling days without coffee begging God for a glimpse of light; Alas, it had come to the point in my adulthood that certain things were just part of me–and coffee was one of them, a welcome and at least usually warm antidote for what seemed to be more often than not a cold, heartless world. But today, the sun shone and spread light and joy into my heart and mind a I trekked the nearly one mile walk to a nearby asian fusion restaurant that I had avoided before, but now was unwilling to suffer the consequences of a 4-hour set during a fast in which I spent a devoted amount of time and energy in the early morning amidst the miserable and robotic drones of the early morning commute–I was at least happy to have poured through a decent chapter or two of the books that I had finally climbed from the plateau of reading–a book about the rich history of the underground–a well-written journey into the past of a world I loved, but had become so distant from, in my heart and mind, but never in my soul– my own collection of unique and eclectic mixtapes growing daily, my own skill surpassing even my expectations–but it wasn'tmy expectation that I needed to surpass: i had yet to attract the attention of the greats–or even the lower-level promoters and managers which would spark my entry into the dance-club scene, elevating my professional DJ career from playing in parties, bars, and strip clubs and into the actual raves, clubs, and festivals that my soul came from –and called back out to, between the lines and hidden subliminal messages coded deep in the basslines, drops, and 4-to-the-floor anthems I curated with such forceful thought and empathy into my sets and mixes–mixes made of course with love on the mind and deep in my soul but seemingly nowhere to be found, lost in translation and unrequited, reverberated in the emotional undertones of the music I played day in, and day out, sometimes with tears in my eyes, but always with God on my shoulders, most often whispering the next selection into my mind's eye – my music a leap in blind faith. ‘Fuck, I do feel better.' The Pad Thai hadn't been great at all, but it had been enough to soothe the intense waves of dissociative dissolution and disconnect that came with each and every passing fast–and with each one an honorable lesson in gratitude, for all that had come with my sacred journey: Now, I was a true DJ. I don't know why imm looking for Platinum delusions “I have a question”, Well, there goes your l answer l; There goes your skeleton, creeping out the back door— There goes your relevance, An acelance, A metaphor Is that what you asked for? You looked in the wrong mirror today Is this what you wanted or not? Delusions of grandeur Emotions and saw what you bought from the storefront Gobbler it up, and wanted more More important words, for the chauffeur Are you sure, dear On a short order Or a show with a shirt run You saw the short So you order it Abort mission at once— They'll call you up when all the smoke is up In the rooftop of the cathedral Is that what you wanted Is that what your question was? More discoveries, coming right up At water Michael makers in a room full of synthesizers you could only wish you were in It's fittinf, the description for the symptoms of schizophrenia If everything relates, it should be an easy diagnosis— But it isn't It's real as hell, But isn't I just want a feel for who you are So I can stop myself from loving your accomplishments And settle for less Like the rest of the talentless miscreants With financial constraints And too many problems To overcome Into abundance Your works is my music and I just dance to it; Meanwhile imm miserable and you're courting princesses Soon to be queens, co conspirators, aqua rain es And I'm still crying in the door idiots you opened and then left me in To sift though this Infinite Disaster of indifference I found you in the kitchen sink So was bound to drown you in it A katy for your baby again— A calamity of mastery, An actor for your Gem—another character I'd written out of affinity for abandonment Flattened my abdomen for him But still couldn't change my skin color If I wanted Dillon Francis seems more obnoxious than usual [DILLON FRANCIS BEING EXTRA] Mm–I don't think so. This is out of control. It's not out of control I'm in control This is out of control. we're going to play a game. What kind of game. A minigame. What does this game entail. haha. **sidenote: Laidback Luke is not laidback at all. He seems calm. That's just his demeanor. Haha. Okie. Whats wrong with al these guys Nobody sleeps here. What about him. He looks asleep. No. [waves hand gently] See he's– You're on in 5. [Suddenly, Very awake.] Oh wow. See. Superstar DJ. Well, fuck, man. What is this Just stand here What. For what Just– wait here. Wait?! For what?! Just – [Leaves] LAIDBACK LUKE (eyes) I don't like this. (eyes) I don't like this at all. MA, MORE COFFEE. WAAAT? MORE COFFEE, MA!!! Lol these guys again. I love these guys. How did we get here? Technically, we're still in a deadmau5 construct. I dont think he's okay. I Don't think anybody's okay. Are you okay? No. (eyes) … Oh. “Oh” What are you doing here. Whatever I'm doing. You're a madman. I fucking wish. Be careful now—- —careful for what— Don't you know—wishes come true. If that were the case I'd be the richest man in the world. —maybe you are. [A mysterious stone is presented.] What is this? [a myateriius half—smirk] Your fortune, sir. THIS IS OUTRAGEOUS. What—? You know what. The Lakers Won? Don't be smart! —but—I'm a genius! [he launches towards him with fury—a coffee table comes between the two men —now, you're a rational man— —AGHH— —I wouldn't expect you to succumb to such violence. If I don't kill you with my own hands, someone else will. —kill me? With your own hands? Someone else?! AGH!! [he crushes the coffee table] That was redwood! —it's still redwood. [he picks up a pointy table leg] Where is it? Where is what? I'm ugly Nobody loves me Somebody hug me Move over, You need a mother; I'm just your lover— You're lucky And woah I think I want some Timmy hos I catch the 40 Gross Everybody's broke What is this place? —is that still happening? The ashes, falling Almost forgot about the raindrops Something's calling me The bus is coming What day is it? Last summer, I suffered longer Last summer still isn't over Last summer I came back to make money And have none now Last summer, You laughed at me Last summer, I got my hat back Last summer I worked harder Last summer I sold my hatch back I have a whole bachelor's degree waiting for me At my bachelorette party (I never had one) I came to this country last summer With nothing but a gym bag And this hat on Though it might have been another one —I always have a hat on I like the way his legs are crossed And it's just so awful How lost in my thoughts I am I'm simply anonymous, Unworthy of womanhood Stopped in androgynous God, This is all of us calling We're lost again Someone took all of my coffee And poured it on top of my coffin —I'm sad, I've been here a long time Without good money —I'm sad, I've been here a long time I just keep writing —I'm sad I've been all alone, But I'm still made of stardust —I'm sad I've been here a long time I keep falling in lust with my projects I build matrixes— I just— thought you should know that I never had my own show before Why would I go back to Being the most affordable whore in sun valley Or something I've got stars in my eyes— But I guess I deserved that I shot myself in the head I guess this is the blow back A throwback You owe me money But I don't want money— I just want love But nobody loves the impartially ugly Satan said nobody loves me All dressed up as a Japanese lady Who couldn't contain me And tried to control me— But I have a hole in my head, you know It makes everyone quite uncomfortable. When I sat down on the bus, I just lost myself I just keep fighting off lust And biting my fingernail polish, and honestly—god? Just take my life Before I do I'm not suicidal I just can't buy things Right when I like to I just can't find the right guy To go home to So you know (So you know) (So you know) (So you know) I love you Victory, Victory ,Victory!!! Do you want to come with me? Victory, Victory Victory! I'm mobile now, Do you want me to pull up? Victory, Victory, Victory! If I pull up, Do you want to come with me? Victory, Victory, Victory! I just want you with me As I fight feelings of shame and disgust I'm in the window now Robbed of my lust And my last few dollars If only for the moment I'm in the window now Like a puppy I have to wonder If anybody wants me —apparently nobody loves me I'm in the window now Thinking about how Nothing I've ever done matters Not even this What a lovely display it is It is ironic, you know. I would kill myself tonight Just never to be reminded Of —- I would kill muself tonight If I could know that on the other side It was warm and bright And this life Never even happened I might kill myself tonight Or just ride it out And try to write about How I arrived here Something's apparently important Imports and exports Inbreds and ex husbands, wives And Ex doctors Sometimes I'm Michael There's a lot of love in this parking lot I never thought about how right or wrong I was Until I stopped and watched it al on camera Vandalism in a stolen prison The whole world revolves around a blue eyed white man The whole world revolves around his blue eyed children taking all my husbands The whole world revolves around a lousy dollar — All I've got is this flower; What can I buy with that ? The whole world's rotten Just like this Apple It's in my pocket And I'm gonna light it on fire On purpose (Or with purpose) Hello? Which phone did you call from? I don't have this number Excuse my stream of conciousness I was trying to fight off suicidal thoughts not so creatively This is my job, Like this is your job I look at the jaw I want what you want This is my planet we're on This is is my plan, I got lost in it Maybe I'm wrong, but I'm not You just want a nut with a butt I just want a bud [Sample, Dillon Francis: Hey Buddy! (The Coffee Run)] I'm not your buddy. Ah. Look at that car; I'm on a coffee run at McDonald's How much does it cost? A dollar, one— It's like putting gas in my car, I don't wanna I don't wanna I don't wanna Call Jimmy Fallon to borrow a dollar. It's a coffe run A coffee run A coffee run; You cough, I run You like? I'm fun The west was won by everything under the Sun, Run it Equinox+ (EP) Love brings me out of my shell; —I could love you, I I could love you, I Could love you, I Could love you, I love you I love you, I This isn't good for my health; If you don't love me,oh well — (I could love you, I) This is just passing the time, Count my dimes and, I'm wealthy, you build me up Shining, I wake you up Diamond of mine, I love you, I Love you I Do what I want most the time, Cause nothing else matters but Making you mine I, so what I want most the time I can't get out Out of my mind, Cause I love you I love you I, Wasting my time, I could love you but Nevermind Drunk, And I'm stumbling up to my apartment for The 30th time this month, My rent's due tomorrow, but I got it, Woah, I've got just enough Just to keep fuxkin up Getting fucked up And filling my cup Like it's something, But it's nothing, Not really Nothing, Not really Be good Work it out Come on Work it odd Be good Shake it off Work it out Come on Be good, Work it off, Work it out— Come on Be good Work it out Shake it off Come on — We all know There's a monster in there And it wants let out; All man, beware— Yeah We all know There's a monster in her— And, Someone will let it go Oh, Someone let it go Oh, no (oh yeah) Oh, no That's no good That's no good Oh no (Oh yeah) Oh no (Oh yeah!) No, no You just had to let it go You just had to let it go Oh, no! — I need time To rationalize my genius I can't write light this Alt right all white nationalists I can fantazize, right? I could die like this It's a damn good life What fucking time is it, anyway? Right? I can't rationalize, this Fascist rats at The Fashion district Bam, I had it— I had to get right, man I had to get God on my Mantras I fucked up tomorrow, I'm off in Toronto with problems And dogma— Who's dog is this Tied up at the Whole Foods market I tried it, I died in the in I can't idolize idols, man Cry, though, Dip my bicoff in Chiapas coffee All pissed off, Woah It's the wrong morning to wallow in Caught me off guard at the offering Sha, there's no mother here, No other one, You're wrong God, I stopped to cross at all of them, I suffered when I swallowed, Rah, What's wrong? I'm feeling solemn on my sodomist Wishes of This centrifugal —‘swimming with the fishes, Get it? Woah, It's a whole open world of Wizards and witches I wish I could ditch this —the center or attention is this city— That's Alex Tribec, for the record Fuck the TriBeCa fest Rest in Los Angeles Rest in peace Barbra Hah— I've got all of em This is an awful lot of mantras, Stars and Stripes. God; I lost it at the Oscar's, Turn me on, or off I'm all of it Or not What was the cost of this? An awful lot of mantras, stars, And crosswalks, To stop dead in the center of “I'm miserable That's Hollywood for you, God, That's Hollywood, That's where we dropped you off — Have you had enough, yet? How was is? Enough! I'm not even fully up yet! Fuck, It was loveless, All up in ashes, I told ya, That “fun is a friend of the devil “ Burn in sense, Just rub out the sense Have my lips on your hips, Just rotate, As the earth did, In difference, she has Impatience is his imperfection “Eventually,” She says, “I'll see him” He tends to agree, Within reason— Winter breezes and freedom, This season Envy leaves, But she's gonna get even Come in threes, And maybe, We'll see then. Come to the surface, Come up— Don't give up yet Give what you've got; Half a lung, And the other is under— Come on, Come up, Come all— Come, you're walking on water! No wonder they call for you On earth — (We've got a Hot One, for you) Have you ever wondered What's wrong with us all? Fuck— Hollywood's calling, I don't have my phone on me Hollywood called, But your voice Mail is full, What? I finally picked up; The message at the tone, Was in Morse code Billy fit the Playbill, I signed it “usnavi” Yo, You look just like me A sacrifice? A sacrifice, I said, I'm red, I'm jealous like I've never been That's right, blue eyes then Next lifetime Fu— They robbed me of all my art As a hobby Worshipped for All I've got Not a god yet, but Gotta be working on something That's all of it, Gotta be knocking it off, Full of gossip and God, I want love But it's not in the cards, huh New Joan Of Ark, Where's the war That you wanted Not enough talk, But I've done enough walking Gosh, Two thumbs up, All applause from the audience That what you wanted? Yeah! “God I want love but it's not in the cards yet” That's what you wanted? Yeah! That's what you wanted {Enter The Multiverse} [The Festival Project.™] COPYRIGHT © THE FESTIVAL PROJECT 2023 ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. © -U.

In this episode:Mike and Ed discuss the battle between the Avengers and the Masters of Evil - not to be confused with the Brotherhood of Evil. Ed explains the importance of differentiation in your brand - you don't want to be confused for someone else. Mike wants to know if every superhero also has to be a tailor in their spare time. How many costumes does someone like Spider-Man own? Is his summer costume made with different material than his winter costume? Is the real benefit of being on a super team the laundry services? And why is Giant-Man re-branding yet again? The red and blue suits you, big guy, now stop fiddling with it and just embrace the fit!Behind the issue:This is the last full issue of this Avengers roster. The next issue, Avengers #16, completely changes the membership (more on that when we cover that issue). This issue ends on a cliffhanger but is wrapped up quickly in the next issue. The battle is used as the driver of why most of the team members decide to leave the organization. Also in this issue, Captain America battles Baron Zemo one-on-one and kills him. But that takes place in a far away country and is, at this point, unknown to the wider public.In this issue:Steve Rogers is contemplating a career change. As he does so, he notices the supervillains the Enchantress and the Executioner drive by, and he chases after them but they get away. Steve changes into his Captain America gear and reports back to the Avengers about the evil duo being in the city. They resolve to deal with them, but before they can do so, Rick Jones is kidnapped right in front of them by henchmen working for Baron Zemo. The Enchantress and the Executioner then break the Black Knight and the Melter out of prison and have them join their team with Zemo, the Masters of Evil. Iron Man and Thor do battle with the Black Knight and the Melter high above the city, while Giant-Man and the Wasp chase after the Enchantress and the Executioner at street level. The villains are ultimately defeated. At the same time, on a separate mission, Captain America locates Rick and frees him, with Zemo dying in the process by his own hand (accidentally).Assumed before the next episode:People are keeping an eye out in the streets for large muscular people in costumes, and then running for their lives so they are not caught up in a super-person battle.This episode takes place:After the Avengers have defeated the Masters of Evil.Full transcript:Edward: All right. That's what I'm talking about, Mike. We got the Avengers fighting a League of Evil super villains in the city. They're back to doing what we pay them to do.Michael: Or somebody pays them to do , but definitelyEdward: our tax dollars at work. Mike, our tax dollars at work,Michael: back to business, doing what we want them to do and not dealing with what was the last thing that they're caught up in, just. Regular,Edward: regular, regular what wasn't like giant man dealing with the mafia, I just felt like know, like get, get, get back on track. We have police that can deal with the regular stuff, but when you have a guy who can melt walls and an enchant who's casting magic spells and an as guardian and executioner, now is the time to step in with superpower people.Michael: That's right if we're anything Ed, we definitely believe in specialties and specialists. and superheroes are by definition specialists in super villains, not just, you know, rescuing cats stuck in trees and, and, uh,Edward: oh, my, I would be mundane, angry if Thor was spending his time getting cats outta trees.like, I feel like, like, not, not a good use of tax dollars. I dunno what we're paying him, but I figure we could pay someone a lot less to get the cats outta the trees. .Michael: But that being said, if my cat got stuck in a tree, I'd rather Thor flew up there than I had to climb a tree and possibly break my neck trying to rescue the bloody cat. But anyways,Edward: I, okay. Like you are not specialized in getting cats outta trees, that is not your specialty either. You stick to the law. Thor sticks to the super villains, and we can get the firefighters to get the cats out of the trees.Michael: All right. I think we've settled on it, on what should happen, certainly with cats and trees, but also with superheroes addressing super villains and so, It's back to business as usual, not great that we had to have them as, you know, having evil super villains, the masters of evil coming back and battling the Avengers, but at least, yeah, fine. The Avengers are tackling this discreet issue.Edward: Let's not even talk about the fact they're called the Masters of Evil. Again, we have the Brotherhood of Evil Mutants, we have the Masters of Evil, we have the frightful four. Like these guys are just throwing themselves out there as being, I am not to be trusted.Michael: I know. Bless. I don't know. It's like good and evil are just, there's no like room for gray in here. Maybe there's . There's no misunderstanding.Edward: The masters of Gray we're the brotherhood of ambiguity, .Michael: How about misunderstood, tough childhood and trying to work through it. People together in a union, fighting for own version of justiceEdward: I will say as a marketing guy the bigger problem is, it's just confusing because right, there's the brotherhood of evil, but, and there's the masters of evil, like, I think. The evil is the key word in both those brands and it's easy to confuse them. Mm-hmm. So to be clear, the masters of evil who fought the Avengers this week there was the melter who could melt metal, not magni, who could move metal. Totally different people, unrelated, different teams, different names, but the same team name. Using that evil.Michael: There's some overlap there I guess, but I think they maybe, well you gotta wonder why they haven't consulted with, an agency about branding, which would make sense.Edward: So the key thing on branding is, number one is be descriptive. And I guess they're being descriptive. We are evil, mean people. And they've handled that part of it. But you also need to differentiate yourself. The other people who are doing similar work. And so if there's two teams of evil people doing evil super stuff, you just can't, you need to find a new name for yourself. And Frightful four does it, right? Frightful four does not use the evil name. They went to their local Theora and they've, looked up evil and they're like, you know what else is similar to evil is frightful. How about frightful instead of evil? And they're like, let's go with it. And there's no confusion there. But I think Masters of Evil and Brotherhood of Evil, to me, those are too close. And one of them should re. .Michael: That leads to the next question. We talked about lawyers might specialize in super powered people and insurance might be responsive to it. I wonder if there's any, well you would know, are there any agencies that deal with this kind of stuff?Edward: I don't think it's, the market's not big enough, Mike. The market's not big enough. Hmm. And, and especially if you're dealing with, nobody wants to be the marketing agency to. The criminals and the mafia. There's no mafia doesn't have a marketing agency working for them. They might have marketers as part of their team, but it's not like they need, they don't need them the way they need, lawyers and accountants.Michael: I'm not saying that General Electric is evil or anything, but you know, , they, they, they definitely, and they, they don't practiceEdward: the, the General Electric of Evil .Michael: No, but I mean like, like they're big corporations that, that, actually I don't wanna get sued by General Electric never meant nevermind about that. But, but regardless, I would imagine that there's agencies that would, for the right price would certain. Wanna be engaged by the Masters of Evil to say, let's call yourselves, maybe not the masters of evil, but the master, you know, the brotherhood of people. I don't know. Or something. Brotherhood of people. Some kinda, some kinda like, I said the, brotherhood of evil. Like the idea is like there's some kind of more palatable name that they could have to achieve their goals. I would imagineEdward: they could take the name they have right now, instead of the Masters of Evil, just be like, How about just the masters? The masters, the masters of super, the ma, the masters of powers, take the other characteristics they have other than evilness and lean. Lean into those. .Michael: Yeah. Like maybe like, they're really smart, I don't think if they're getting in fights with the Avengers, they need people to tell them that they're the antagonist in this dispute. Cuz the Avengers have clearly occupied the superhero world. Why don't you just call them some, call themselves something else? Like the masters or the, uh, the terrifics or something. It's the positive. Be positive by yourself, the public.Edward: Take the Avengers name and play that. Like, they can be the Avengers, like they can, they're the anti Avengers and the anti Avengers. You could define yourselves as being the opposite of your competitor.Michael: And leave it open as to whether they're in the wrong or not, that's what I find so confusing about the branding of automatically saying, we are definitely in the wrong, we are evil people. Evil, evil, evil. Or we are frightful, terrible, terrible people, , we just call themselves the amazing four, let people find out that they're bad. ,Edward: surprise, also evil.Michael: Surprised I was evil. But you know, we kind of had you there. You bought our action figures, because we're the amazing four hey Rob banks and try to destroy nuclear powered, power stations. But anyways. Mm-hmm. we're the amazings,Edward: I think the part of the has become is we don't see a lot of rebranding we've seen groupings of superheroes that come together and created a new brand, but the Avengers haven't decided, oh, we're gonna change our name. Or the Fantastic Four haven't been like, you know what? We've, we totally made a mistake. There is a possibility we could add a fifth member . Um, we need a new name. Um, yeah. It seems like everybody's commit. Well, I guess with one exception, ant Man has rebranded, right? Right. But apart, but apart from Ant Man, everybody's basically stuck with the. Brand since they started. We have any superhero that's switched brands along the way, or super villain for that. .Michael: No. And again, I kind of was being a little tongue in cheek about having agencies that might be involved in branding, but there's probably something to it, if not the name, certainly in the costumes or the outlook or the perspective on, or at least the narrative that they wanna advance. Because we do know that there are some superheroes who are more popular than others, why is Captain America more popular than Spider-Man? It might. because of the name. It might be because he's not covering his whole face. It might be just a costume, but, I'd imagine that there's something there. There's value in being popular and being celebrities as we know the fantastic force. Certainly there's a value in that and a financial benefit to that. So you think it might be worth their time to actually consult? Maybe a lot of them have, certainly the Fantastic four have already consulted with a brand expert and they say, you know, yeah, sure you might be limited in your membership numbers, but you're doing everything else right? You have a very clean, clear lines in your costumes. You're not hiding your face. You don't even have se secret entities. And that's led to them being not only popular, but making money from the whole enterprise. And you gotta wonder, maybe other people would. From it. Or they've already gone through it and just are just trying to play out the whole marketing plan.Edward: We don't know what's going on behind the scenes. We can just see the effects and like I can say there are certain things that are pretty consistent in the world of branding that are important. Mm-hmm. , so things like affiliating your brand with good things. , right? So this is why we run advertisements. That's why beer commercials show people drinking beer and having fun. And now you say, oh, you know what, if I drink beer, maybe I will have fun too. Maybe I will be surrounded by attractive women. And I think there's no difference in superheroes where if Spider-Man is continually getting affiliated with bad things, we start to affiliate Spider-Man as being bad. And if Captain America's affiliated with winning World War ii, which was a pretty good thing that. Leans off onto his brand. So that's number one. Number two is brand longevity matters a lot too. So a brand that's been around for a long time, people tend to like the things that stick around. And part of that's a trust thing because if you have a brand that's brand new, you don't know whether to trust it or not. But if something's been around, like ivory soap has been around for 60 years or something like that, they have a pretty good consistent record on, they're gonna do, they're gonna make you clean. And I think that's part of the reason why Captain America is so loved is he's been around longer time and they, he's consistently stuck on message and delivered that same message over and over and over again, over an extended period of time. And so we can trust him. But Spider-Man, he's like a brand new dude who knows what's what he's gonna do.Michael: Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . Well, yeah. And of course, this is something you have an expertise in about branding. But that leads to the question then. But the question I asked earlier is do you think that most these of these superheroes have consulted with a brand expert?Edward: No. No, of course not. No. they not talking to anybody. They peop, but like, just like most companies don't spend a lot of time with brand experts. They figure out things on their own, uh, and mm-hmm. and the biggest companies have lot. They're spending money on everything. But smaller companies, and I think most superheroes, you can think of them as fairly small companies. They're small, like little tiny startups trying to figure stuff out and they're not gonna have a budget to go. Spiderman doesn't a budget these spending on public relations people and a marketing team and a advertising organization and like they, they don't have that stuff. Most celebrities may have a publicist and a manager at best. And I think most superheroes are behind. .Michael: Well then let's talk about the one superhero who seems to be constantly rebranding and who would probably benefit from having some assistance. Antman, I mean, giant Man. I mean, okay. , whatever he is. How many costume ?Edward: Well, he's just had three. Right. So he had Antman and he was fairly consistent as Aunt Man. Yeah. And then he rebranded to Giant Man, and that was very confusing. Yeah. For a long time we didn't even know the Giant Man and Antman were the same person. And then, and now he has a new costume again, so this is. His second rebrand, and as far as I know, he's sticking with the name this time. He's not rebranding the name, just the look and. .Michael: But it's sort of funny, so if you go through those cautions first, when he is ant man, he clearly looked like, he's small and stuff and it's just like a red costume and stuff. And then when he is giant man, he still had those sort of funny antennas on his, head that suggests like, all right, okay, and he's bigger, he's walking around and like all giant, he's a giant now. He's a giant ant. Like it's just like, why don't you just call yourself like big aunt or something, and then, cuz that's what he's like, why if you're now giant, man, when I think of giants, I don't think of having an antennas on their heads, but whatever. That's what he did and now he seems to have. Well, let me think about, look at the news. Did he, does he still have those antenna on his head in his new costume?Edward: I don't even know. I haven't, I should have done more research. I feel like I haven't spent time really examining this new costume of hisMichael: Well, regardless, it's another rebranding and so that's where I'm wondering. Okay. If he, if this isn't part of a plan, then what is it? Is it just that he's like, I don't know, I don't say this, but insecure about his, you know, he's just like, oh gosh, doesn't make me look so good.Edward: So I think it's like, Hey, stay. Staying with a consistent costume can't be easy on any of these guys. Now the advantage is they don't need to think of what they're gonna wear in the morning, but the disadvantages is how many costumes do they have to have? Like you, you and I, I think I have a fairly consistent brand in terms of what I wear. I don't wear, I'm not gonna show up to work in like, I don't know, green tights. I'm gonna wear the consistent clothes every time I go to work. , but it doesn't mean I wear exactly the same clothes. I might have a blue suit or a black suit. I might wear a white collar or a blue collar. I feel like I can change up within a range. Yeah. It feels like superheroes don't do that and maybe giant man is just trying that. He's like, you know what, today, I just didn't feel like the antennas.Michael: Well, okay. Just to loop back on that, I've looked at the, the reporting still going with the antennas, , I don't get it, but regardless,Edward: he's, keeping, so there you go. That's his consistent theme. Yeah. He was like, he was an ant man to a giant man, to a, new giant man, and he kept like the ant theme all the way along. And, that's a branding choice too. So you take some brand elements and you carry them forward so people can still, when they walk into the store to pick up their. Tide, the new Tide brand looks different, but it looks similar enough to the old brand. They're not gonna get confused.Michael: Okay. So he is following some of the rules that you've identified, but when you're talking about this costume idea, so leaving aside the branding issue is just how is it working with costumes? Because, you know, like I like to exercise as you, as you know, and so do you, and I've got a number of outfits that I use. For any other reason than practicality. If I exercise, I need to wash the clothing right away. So these guys are like, let's say take Spider-Man for example. That guy is swinging through the city. He must be sweating like crazy . And you think he just goes home? Is he doing laundry every single night,Edward: Do you think he has a summer version of his costume and a winter version? When it's cold out, he wears his warm tights and then the summer he's wearing I dunno, really, really thin tights.Michael: You'd have to, it'd be a winter weight and a summer weight but also on top of that, in the summer, you probably have to have way more versions of this costume . And so who's making it for him? Or is he just laundering it every night? Who made it to begin with, but then. , who's clean, who's continuing to make other costumes for 'em, or same version of the costume, which looks complicated. You see all the design elements and then clean.Edward: I guarantee if I was a superhero, I would be wearing block colors. There's no way I'm gonna making, these are like small black lines on my, I'd be like, I'm gonna wear red and I'm gonna go buy some red stuff and just make a red costume. The idea of sewing together the blue and the red, and then to your point, not doing it once. It's not like the guy behind Spider-Man's mask is, maybe he's a tailor for his side job, but, he's not making one costume. To your point. He, he must have dozens of costumes for the different seasons and, for the smell. If he has so many and to make them all identical.Michael: Yeah, it's quite an enterprise and to my knowledge, I don't think Spider-Man makes money from what he's doing so it's quite an investment. It's not just one costume. Maybe he could have gotten away with having a few of those costumes if he just was dressed in all black, for instance, with a funny mask and maybe you don't to, well, he had to wash the mask every night. If you're wearing this full head on mask, It probably It would stink too.Edward: Yeah, like crazy. And maybe that's, maybe he only has one or two costumes and he just washes them every night. He goes home. He has his own, he's clearly not taking them to like a public, dry cleaners. He probably has his washing dryer in his house and he's just running the washer and dryer. Every he gets home, takes off his outfit, washes it, dries it, and it's ready to go the next day.Michael: Or has the most discreet laundromat in the world, , you know, in addition to the most discreet Taylor, but that's not just him, right? It's all the, these heroes, they present with the same costume. And if we're comparing them to say, The police or the military, they have multiple versions of their outfits when they're on duty, when they have to wear outfits for work. It's mindblowing to me. So let's go to a team element, I'd imagine that, if you want to find out, I suspect they all know who each other are on this, on the Avengers. So we wonder if, find out who they were. I bet if they all are having their costumes washed by somebody or they're having mul tailors, , you know, prepare their costumes for, somebody's gonna speak about it. You know what I mean? It should, they should find out. Oh,Edward: well the Avengers are different though, right? The Avengers, we know they we're close with Star Corp. I'm sure Star Corp has like a supply of tailors and stuff to make these costumes, right? So whatever giant man's secret identity is, he's not taking the costume to a tailor a secret identity. He's just passing it into the, through the stark corpse team of people and they make the costume. They probably have industrial cleaners that take care of it every night for them. I think that's all veryMichael: standardized. . Can you imagine? What's your job? It's star carp. Okay, I've got a really top secret job, but job, I can't talk about it. And then as this man's telling his wife, I can't even talk about my job. It's star carp. I just cannot tell you. I can't tell you what I do. And then he's sitting alone in a dark room. He's like, I wash giant man's clothing. .Edward: I get, I get, that's what I do. I get the stand. You think your trouble tough, he was attacked by a lava monster. Getting lava stains out of these costumes is impossible.Michael: yeah. It's just like it. But that's what it would have to be. , it would be top secret, right? To keep his identity secret. So whoever's washing his clothing would have to like oh. Under, under penalty of like imprisonment. Don't tell, you can't tell anybody. You know anything about Captain America's the underwear he wears outside of his pants or whatever. It's just wild to me. It's just what a job.Edward: Well, I think I, we figured out the number one recruiting technique. I feel like if I'm an independent hero now, the number one reason to join the Avengers is not the money. It's not the fame , it's the laundry service.Michael: Sign me up, Eddie. Sign me up. This is a public episode. 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In this episode:Mike and Ed discuss whether the Fantastic Four or the Beatles are more famous. The Thing and the Human Torch were recently at a Beatles show and did some damage while capturing thieves who targeted the cashboxes. Who should pay for that damage? Should good samaritans like the Fantastic Four be held responsible? If they are, what type of disincentive does that create for other superheroes to help others? Are there more superpowered people out there who are keeping their abilities secret because they can't afford the insurance?Behind the issue:The Beatles are first mentioned in the Marvel Universe in Fantastic Four #34 (two months prior to this issue's release), but this is the first appearance of the actual band. The Beatles' first comic book appearance was a few months earlier in July 1964 when Dell Giant released a special issue focused on the fabulous foursome. A few days after the Dell book hit the stands, an Archie title also mentioned the Beatles (Archie's Girls Betty and Veronica #105) and the girls shopped for wigs, but the actual musicians did not appear. Perhaps the very first appearance was in the aforementioned Archie series #104, which teased the following issue and had a page of text explaining who the Beatles were (see below). The Beatles are mentioned in Marvel Comics a number of times through the years, but, as far as we are aware, they do not appear again until 2007, when it is revealed that the band had been kidnapped years ago and had been replaced by Skrulls (who were responsible for the majority of their music in the Marvel Universe).In this issue:The Thing and the Human Torch are getting under each others' skin, and likely need a break from each other. No such luck, as their girlfriends convince them to go see the breakout sensation from Britain, the Beatles. The foursome head to the show, but before it begins, they learn that the venue's payroll has been stolen. The Thing and the Torch head out and capture the criminals, but unfortunately miss the entire show.Assumed before the next episode:People are more interested in being entertained by the Beatles than being saved by the Fantastic Four, or so we assumeThis episode takes place:After the Beatles have started their British Invasion!Full transcript:Edward: Mike, who is more popular? The Beatles or the Fantastic Four ?Michael: I think if you listen to our show regularly, you would assume the Fantastic Four. But if you lived in the real world you'd probably say The Beatles people meaning it for a reason, right?Edward: Fantastic Four have clubs, fan clubs, but there's no fantastic mania. How even the four mania how would you even say that?Michael: Yeah, I don't know ff mania, but like, you know, there's, I thinkEdward: we don't swear on the show, Mike. No swearing on the show.Michael: Yeah, . Well, they're certainly popular. They're incredibly popular and they're being followed and there's celebrity magazines that report on them, but, Nothing like the Beatles. Nothing like The Beatles has happened in a superhero superpowered world. Yeah.Edward: And in this particular case, we had the Fantastic Four went to go and see a Beatles show and we've had no incidences, we know about where the Beatles have gone to see a Fantastic four show.Michael: No, they're not showing up the Baxter Building, you know, pen and paper hand asking for autographs. Although, funny about it is maybe it's just a comment on human nature or our society, but like the Fantastic Floor have saved the world more than once.Edward: And Beatles, the Beatles have not, Beatles have never saved the world.Michael: So you think, you'd think that if there's gonna be this adulation, idolatry, of anyone, it would be the fantastic for, but no, it definitely isn't. It definitely is not. The Beatles are far more popular.Edward: Yeah. The, I guess the Beatles have saved music.Michael: Okay, we'll go with that. They definitely struck a nerve in our society and they're making their mark. And so time will tell us whether the Beatles will be remembered. But right now it's hard to avoid them. If you're trying to avoid them, they're everywhere.Edward: There's that question too, a thousand years from. Looking far, very, very far in the future, are we gonna remember the Fantastic four of the Beatles and I think it would be the Fantastic four, the first real superheroes on the planet are I imagine more memorable than any music bandMichael: the Fantastic four are, as we chronicled or the vanguard of this new evolution of almost post humanity then this is a moment in our history, where there's, who knows where we're going to evolve to. So my money would be that the Beatles are a flash in the pan and the Fantastic four are here to stayEdward: and interesting there's four of each of them. I think that's a coincidence?Michael: Oh my, I didn't think about that. So do you think that maybe, do you think that there's a matching principle going on here, we noted in, remember we talked about recently with the frightful four, there's four of them and we're just confused as to why they would limit them.Why wouldn't they be like the hateful eight or something. But instead it's like they pick the four and the beetles are quarted as well. So do you think. Are we? Are the Beatles being influenced by the Fantastic Four? Is music being influenced by superhero culture?Edward: Yeah, maybe. Or maybe the other way around. Maybe the Fantastic Four just search out for groups of four things.Michael: Yeah.Edward: They go to the grocery store and be like, yeah, I know you have a dozen eggs, but do you have like a smaller package, like maybe a third the size?Michael: Or maybe. Or maybe it's just. Things come into four, right? There's the four of food groups, there's four seasons. It kinda just naturally would evolve to where the Fantastic four, who, when you really think about their powers are quite elemental in nature. They have this sort of,Edward: there's four elements. There you go.Michael: There's four elements. Yeah. So maybe there's an inherent connection to the idea of having teams of four. Although maybe I'm just spinning some mirror here. But anyways,Edward: Can you match them? Can you look at the, we talked about this before, the frightful four. There's like a match almost between, Medusa had her stretchy hair. Mr. Fantastic Reed, Richards could stretch his body. There was kind of a rough match betweenMichael: mm-hmm.Edward: the Frightful Four and the Fantastic Four. Can we do the same thing with the Beatles, is there does Paul match to Sue? Like what is the match? The Four Beatles and the four Fantastic. Four.Michael: You know, I just don't know enough about 'em but maybe there might be something there. Maybe that's something that if they stick around, we can we'll explore it a little more and look, maybe they're the first. Maybe the Beatles were the first super. Powered band. Maybe we're gonna find out that they have powers too. Just don't know about, we just know, knowEdward: IF it happens to anybody, it'll happen to the Beatles. I think a couple things to talk about. I think with this encounter with the Beatles and the Fantastic Four, well, I guess the Fantastic Half, the Fantastic four, it was The Thing in the Human. Torch were going to see a show and in the process, I guess someone tried to steal all the money from the show andMichael: mm-hmm.Edward: the Fantastic Four prevented that. So I guess they did, they did their good deed for the day. But in the process of doing that good deed, they did some damage and. I think this is interesting is that the damage that they caused is not being paid for by the theater, not being paid for by the Beatles, not being paid for by the government, not even being paid for by an insurance company. The fantastic for themselves are gonna cover that damage. And I think that's just, it's interesting that it wasn't like The Thing and the Human Torch were being professionally employed by anybody. They went out of their way to help the Beatles or to help the theater anyway with these thieves, and now because of that good deed, they're gonna have to pay. They're taking the money outta their own pocket, and that doesn't seem,Michael: It doesn't, and it, but it's interesting. It probably, it gives us some insight into the institutional nature of the, or at least the institutional connection between the Fantastic Four the society that they live in. So we've talked before about how the Avengers seem to have a pretty direct connection, almost be a separate like military force or arm of the armed forces in America. But the Fantastic Four haven't. You think that Fantastic Four has some kind of formal relationship. As being almost a police force that they would. They'd have an immunity from any kind of possible civil liability or prosecution if they're,Edward: are you saying that they are a police force or they should be a police force?Michael: I'm saying that they aren't, because if they were then if they're acting in the course of their duties, then they would have an immunity from prosecution and civil liability to provide that they were still carry of their duties within their own responsibility. And so then they wouldn't care about paying the damage themselves because if they got sued, they have an insurance policy, they would respond. And they're not, they won't be worried about, say, being arrested for the damage that they caused in the course of exercising their duties.Edward: And that's, I was gonna say that's probably true. If when the US military went and asked the Fantastic four to go and take down the Hulk, they were basically working under the under the authority of the US military, and I'm assuming that any damage caused during that battle with the huk was paid for by the US government, by the military. In this case nobody asked Ben and Johney to go and stop the thieves. They just, they were good Samaritans and they went and did it. That changes the calculation a little bit.Michael: It does up that. I think when they're tasked by the American military, I think that they could be considered to be contractors in that role. But I am saying that here, that they just acted as good Samaritans and did a public good. They acted as if they were, police officers. But the fact that they paid outta pocket tells me that they don't have any kind of special protection or immunity from prosecution or from civil liability. So they did, then they wouldn't have reached into their own pocket. But the fact they reach into their own pocket tells me that they're doing the analysis, which is that it's probably better for us just to pay outta pocket than to get sued by the people that owned the buildings that were damaged or anyone that had a possible liability claim.It's probably just worth their time to pay it out. So they must have number one tons of money. And number two they don't have any kind of protection. So number three, they're gonna use their money to avoid getting sued and have their time being eaten up. It's just worth their time to just pay people rather than having a claim against them.Edward: But I guess why are they doing it at all? So basically these thieves came in, they stole the money, they took off if Ben and Johney just said, oh, you know what, that's not our problem. We're gonna go sit and watch the show.Michael: Mm-hmm. ,Edward: Then number one, they get to see the show, and number two is they're only out of the ticket price. Instead, they went and chased these guys down. They didn't get to see the show, and they had not having to pay a bunch of money outta their pocket. What was the incentive for them to do that?Michael: That's The Thing, right? If there was a, they had immunity from a civil lawsuit, then they would go do it. But here they clearly don't. And so they had to pay out of pocket because they're involved in this incident that caused damage and they pay out pocket cuz it's easier for them to make the claim go away, the potential gifts go away. And I don't know what their incentive is other than to do that other than that they're heroic or because they feel they can solve the problem and they have so much money that it's worth it for them to both be heroic and to also make sure that they don't have their time wasted that they're, after you keep against them,Edward: you keep saying they have so much money. Is that true?Michael: They'd have to, otherwise they wouldn't do it. If they didn't why would they pay out of pocket? Why would they wait and get sued? I guess.Edward: I guess that's my question. So where's that money coming from? I guess they had that one movie that they had a while back. And Reed has some inventions that he's invented. He lost all his inventions that he invented in the past due to that bankruptcy. But he presumably he's invented other things since then but it doesn't seem that that's an unlimited fund of money. I just, I think there's a, from my business world. One of the heroes of the business world was Adam Smith, who invented the whole idea the trade is good. And one of his famous quotes was, it's not the benevolence of the butcher, the baker, or the brewer that we expect our dinner, but it's regards to their self interest. We don't count on the butchers and the bakers to give us their foods for free. Why are we counting on superheroes to do all of their work for free?Michael: We're missing some information then, right? Because it's clearly happening. So number one, the Fantastic Four don't have this protection from being suit for damage that they cause in the course of acting heroically because they're paying out pocket, because that's the only reason that you would pay outta pocket. So why would they continue? Why would they do it?Edward: So let me dive into that cause it's exactly right. It sounds like of there's an incentive to be a butcher, there's an incentive to be a baker.Michael: Mm-hmm.Edward: society incentivizes people to be police officers and salesmen and retail clerks and radio personalities like us, there's all sorts of incentives in the system for these things. It sounds like right now there's a disincentive to be a superhero, and so that's what, okay, go ahead.Michael: I was gonna say that, but that's where I think this is going is that. On its face it doesn't make any sense unless they have so much money and how are they getting so much money? I don't know. Perhaps it's that we are talking about the Fantastic four who have access to space travel and interdimensional travel, right? Based on their recent adventures to our knowledge.Edward: They're just stealing from other dimensions and bringing,Michael: I don't, yeah, I don't know. I do not know if they have access to resources or minerals or something that we don't have access to here and that we're just not made aware of it. Or Reed has been inventing things and selling and profiting off of that.Edward: Yeah. So I guess that could be it, right? So you could be Right. Maybe they're just obscenely wealthy and in order to keep that wealth, in order to keep getting access to these other dimensions and keep the government off their back, they go and do good deeds for good public relations and those good deeds cost them money. But in the same way that, I dunno, Proctor and Gamble donates to clean water in Kenya, they're just like going like they're, it's like the tax on them. The good deed tax is there to keep their good PR so that they can go and make their money some other way that we don't really know.Michael: Yeah but on a personal level I work as a lawyer, so I make my money by going to work and billing and I bill my time. And so if I'm walking to work and I see someone's gonna walk into traffic and I'm gonna stop them because that's a normal human thing to do and it, but on a cost benefit, I guess it costs me time so therefore it costs me money. Cause I don't get to go to work early enough. But, It's on a human level it's what you wanna do. Now if it's now if to save, if I saw someone fall into traffic and for me to save them would require me to, you know, run.Edward: You don't want to skuff your shoes.Michael: No, but if I could lose my life, then I think that it might be more, I'd hope I'd be heroic and chance losing my life to save somebody who's falling into traffic but I don't know, maybe that's where there would be a line. And what I'm saying is that the fantastic core haven't hit that line yet. Yeah, it's still worth their time.Edward: Let's going back to this scenario, it's even worse than that. It's imagine if now you go and you save that guy, he falls down the road and you rush into the road and you save him but in so doing so, you cause a car to swerve and hit another car. And so now they wanna fine you for that car accident because you jumped in the way to save that dude. That doesn't seem right either. It's one thing you've already risked your life, you've already taken your time. Now we're gonna say, Hey, oh, and by the way, now we want your money too.Michael: That analysis only works, that analogy only works, is that I said, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Okay, hold on a second. Let me pay for everything outta my own pocket. But I have an insurance policy that would respond to it. So likely I'm gonna be okay. So even if I did that quick math in my head, is it worth it for me to go in traffic?Edward: Yeah. But should your insurance company be paying for that? The guy who busted his car up again, not, not his fault, maybe the guy who felt that in traffic, you go after him, but going after the insurance company of the guy who saved the person's life, that doesn't seem right,Michael: It doesn't work like that though. If somebody falls into traffic and I go in and try to save them, as a result, some other car gets into an accident. I guess if they sustained injury, they would sue me. They wouldn't Sue the insurance company. My insurance company would respond on behalf of me. And there are some legitimate legal defenses that would apply to that very scenario where it's there. I didn't do anything wrong. I wasn't negligent. They'd have to establish negligence in order to trigger it. But my point was less about the intricacies of motor vehicle law and claims, and more just to say that my analysis is not gonna be influenced. I wouldn't have to think I take into my pocket and pay this person out rather than pay my deductible so that when I got sued, that my insurance company would respond and defend me. Whereas the Fantastic Four, clearly it's just not worth it for them to. To possibly don't have insurance, which I don't think they do to respond to the claims that would be made them damaging thatEdward: if they did their insurance would be so high ,Michael: they'd be so high.Edward: What insurance?Michael: You're an orange, rocky, monster that could destroy a building. So I think the insurance would be quite high if you had it. But at the same time, they could sued personally. The, Thing would have to, he is paying outta pocket. They must have so much money that it's just like there's, they're not even thinking about being tied up in a potential lawsuit later because so much doughEdward: and so clearly all these disincentives that we're creating haven't stopped the Fantastic Four from existing. But what's I always find interesting is when these disincentives exist, we have to ask what isn't happening because of these disincentives. Are there lots and lots of other superheroes out there that are being like, you know what, I don't wanna be a superhero. Look how much it's gonna cost. It's too expensive to be a superhero, like being a lawyer. I'll just be a lawyer by day and a nothing by night because it's too expensive.Michael: Well, I'm not, nothing by night a cause you know that.No that's why Spider-Man wears a mask. We've been quite critical on Spider-Man, how he wears a mask and doesn't reveal his identity would be super critical of him.Edward: And it's not, it's not afraid of a villain's attacking him. It's not because he's wants to do criminal things. It's because he's not super rich. Everyone who's not super rich wants to be a superhero, has to cover their face.Michael: So maybe, so I think the solution would be if we recognize it being a superhero is public good, much like having volunteer firefighters and police officers and things like that, then there needs to be new legislation passed in order to provide some immunity from civil prosecution civil claims, if he did, it would remove that disincentive if The Thing and the Torch burned down a building or destroy a building, the building owner can't sue them because they were legitimately acting the course of their superhero duties and roles, then I guess I had to put a claim over to their insurance company. But what would, and I think the only way that works is that probably all of our insurance rates are gonna rise to accommodate that but it's pretty fair to spread their risk out of superhero related damageEdward: It does. And then what that should open up is all these other superheroes that are presumably hiding right now and aren't doing anything. Or have they have secret identities or they have no identities at all because they're not super, they're just, well, they're super, but not heroes. If you wanna take, if you want more of your supers to be heroes, fix the insurance laws.Michael: No fix. You know what we need to have, there? Have to be local, state level and federal legislation that's passed in order to have, immunity from prosecution and immunity from civil claims pass. And that the question for us, I guess as a society, is that a better way to go? Or is it better to have them running around with masks and I don't know. I used to be pretty anti masked, but now I'm kind of seeing the value of it.Edward: Yeah. I think these laws, when you create these new laws, don't they have like catchy names and stuff too?Can we call this law the put the hero back in supers?Michael: I like where you're going with this, but what it be like, there's no i n team, but there's I Insurance Act from 1965. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.superserious616.com

In this final episode with Aaron Chapman, we discuss how adversity can shape your legacy. In this current market environment, many investors will be challenged, but that does not mean they must fail. Your mindset, work ethic, and ability to learn from the external forces that turn your world upside-down will be the deciding factor of your long-term success. Aaron Chapman is a veteran in the finance industry with 25 years of experience helping clients better understand, source, and finance cash-flow positive investment properties. He advises over 100 clients a month in the acquisition and financing of their investment properties and primary residences. Aaron is ranked in the top 1% of mortgage loan processors in the country, in an industry of over 300,000 licensed loan originators, closing in excess of 100 transactions per month. Episode links: https://apps.apple.com/uy/app/qjo-investment-tool/id1533823468 https://www.aaronbchapman.com/ --- Transcript Before we jump into the episode, here's a quick disclaimer about our content. The Remote Real Estate Investor Podcast is for informational purposes only, and is not intended as investment advice. The views, opinions and strategies of both the hosts and the guests are their own and should not be considered as guidance from Roofstock. Make sure to always run your own numbers, make your own independent decisions and seek investment advice from licensed professionals.   Michael: What's going on everyone? Welcome to another episode of the remote real estate investor. I'm Michael Albaum and today with me I have for our third and final episode of this series, Aaron Chapman and Aaron's a lender, and he's gonna be talking to us today about how well you take a beating determines your legacy. So let's get right into it.   Aaron, what's going on, man? Welcome back for part three of our conversation. How are you?   Aaron: What's up, brother. Man, it's looking forward to this one.   Michael: Me too our last few conversations. If you didn't catch them, I highly recommend you go back and give them a listen to Aaron drop some amazing wisdom and knowledge. Today we're talking about how well you take a beating determines your legacy as a theme. But for anyone who didn't catch the first two episodes, give us a quick and dirty who you are. And what is it that you do, Aaron?   Aaron: So I am in the Real Estate Investment Finance space. I'm one of the few conventional lenders that focuses on real estate investments. And I do about 1300 transactions a year for investors, I've been doing that since 1997. Got a great big team of 30 plus people, and we're into heavy into the education and helping people build a business while at the same time getting financing done. And it cost them nothing to have all the experience and the the wisdom, we're trying to give them the guidance while it is getting their financing done like they would do anywhere else.   Michael: Yeah, I love it. And so many lenders, especially conventional lenders, I've come across and you might have shared experience are just trying to push the biggest loan that someone qualifies for on them. And they don't really care what that's gonna be used for. They don't really care what how it's gonna affect the end user. But it sounds like you take a little bit of a different approach.   Aaron: It does bother. Well, there's two things about this industry. You know, I think I may have even referenced it, maybe not among the last two episodes is that humans are the apex predator, we fall prey to no other species except other humans. And I found that our industry is just full of predators. They don't care what you do, as long as you close, they will use every sales technique, everything they've ever been taught to try and find a way to get you to close on that transaction.   Myself, I'm of the mindset is I'm gonna do everything I can to ensure that you close and are successful in that transaction. Because if you're unsuccessful and what you end up doing, you're not going to do deal number 2-3-4-5, I don't care about deal number one I care about deal number 10. Why do I care about deal number 10. Because if you made it to deal number 10, you're a badass, you're getting stuff done, you're achieving your goals, if you get to deal with and pretend that I'm a badass, because I'm getting more deals done, right?   But one, if you have that bad experience, man, I'm never gonna see 10. So we don't when people come to us, and they've got questions that they've never had before. They've got decisions they got to make that they've never had to make before. There's a good chance they've never had to really experience what it's like to make that kind of decision. Well, what I do 1300 transactions a year and I've been doing it as long as I have, I don't answer the question with an answer. I give them stories, what I've seen people do in that same scenario, and then give them the outcome of those decisions. So they're making decisions based on practical data, not speculation, in theory.   And then I also if they're questioning a deal, like, I'm not sure if this is right, if it's wrong is like Well, let's take a look at some things I tell them what to look at, and what questions to ask and who to go get the answers from. Take notes and bring them back to me. And we'll evaluate those answers together. And what I'm doing is helping them to determine whether they move forward or they walk away. And they also got to education about it at it. And they also learned about the other people they're working with are these people that are in it for the closing, or they're in it for them and the longevity of their business. And we get to find that out. And you get to talk to people really, really quickly.   And sometimes it takes time you have to investigate things. You have to spend money on appraisals, you have to spend money on on inspections, and things like that. And it could be costly, but you never stay in the deal because you spent money that you spent the money to walk away from it. And we help them understand that they're their CEO, their real estate investment business, and we're here to support it.   Michael: Yeah, no, I love it. Sunk cost was definitely something I got exposure to early on in his business. And it's could be a very tough concept to wrap your head around. If you're not familiar with it, you know, don't throw good money after bad.   Aaron: And that's a heavy duty sales tactic to get people to follow the sunk cost, thought process and process and get really, really caught up a man have already spent this money. If you understand why you're spending the money. There's never a sunk cost. Yeah.   Michael: Yeah, no, it's so true. It's so true. So let's talk about I mean, where we are today is very different than we were six months ago, a year ago, 18 months ago. And I think people might be in for a little bit of a whirlwind. So let's kind of talked through this concept of determining how well someone takes a beating really determines your legacy, which I think is a really great theme. So why do you think it's pertinent to talk about today, Aaron?   Aaron: Well, we're going into what could be a rarity A very big beating. And the fact that, like you just said, we're coming into something we were this different than what we experienced the last little while. It's different. It's something we've ever experienced. When you go back into the market and started researching what's happened in history of these markets that we that we've been following all the way back in the 1800s, we don't have any data to tell us how the economy and how the market or the world is going to react to the last What is it 12 years, 13 years, since 2009, January 1 2009, we started the quantitative easing, and it's continued to keep going $8.9 trillion $8.9 trillion that put into the market. And now we don't know we have no idea how the markets can respond to that as they're, as they're trying to back off of that 40% of the of the world's currency, or I guess the US currency has been produced in the last 18 months. So for people to tell me, Hey, markets go in cycles, and we can get this particular loan, and we'll just refi later, like, Dude, you can't think that way. Because we're not in any cycle we've ever seen.   The last cycle last tilt since 2009, was really the cycle. Sure, there are some little mini cycles in there. But for the most part, we had extremely low interest rates, never seen before we had a housing market has just been on a tear for 13 years. And now you're thinking that some cycle is gonna come along the next five that you can risk getting a five year loan, and do that. No, I think weren't, it was. And I just know, I think Warren Buffett said the 30 year fix is one of the greatest instruments in the world, because it's a one way bet. If you bet on the 30 year fixed and you're wrong. Worst case scenario is you refinance the house. But if you bet on the 30 year fix, and you're right, you're save yourself 1000s and 1000s, if not hundreds of 1000s of dollars, depending upon the size of your portfolio. So don't get suckered into these short term loans on a long term investment.   So now going into what we're going to be experiencing here, one, I don't know what it's going to be. But if we go back to 2008, here's my own personal story in 2008. You know, I shared my story about coming into the industry and the beatings that I took getting into it, right, and now we're getting into what happened in 2008. Everything starts crashing, everything's falling apart. I at that time, was still doing pretty well. I was making a good six figure income. I had decent clients coming in in 2008. And I was doing kind of a night thing for two throughout two months. I had a buddy of mine I I'm a former fabricator, I've worked on vehicles, I built a hot rods, all kinds of stuff, build jeeps, a lot of things and I have that kind of a background. Well, a buddy of mine says hey, we need you in on this deal. I need another fabricator on this and what we were doing was taking a double decker Bristol bus an English bus. We cut the top off of it, turned it into basically a mobile strip club is what we did. And we did this for a guy that wanted to take it to Burning Man, you guys can look it up. It's called shaggileic. Rapping it's this white bus wrapped in for a cruise ship horn on the front. I mean, it's just it's one of the craziest things you've ever seen. What a trip, I was fabricating everything up top building in the DJ booth. There's a bed going up there places for the poles, all that and that's what I was building.   While I was doing this thing where I was sleeping maybe three hours a night I go to the office, keep working on my lending business. And at night I was fabricating all night long for these guys. Because they were doing during the day and I was doing my part at night. Well then August 8 rolls around am I lucky numbers always been eight. And so as a result that this is August 8 of 2008. I was jumping on the bike, heading out of town for a three day ride through New Mexico just to clear my head. So it's a crazy time in my life and mind that my head was not in the right place. I'll guarantee I just tell you that. Cruising down the highway and right next to this guy is in a black truck and I've been by him for a while so I knew he knew I was there. But Donald suddenly flips on his blinker and he starts coming over to me. Well, I quickly looked over to my right, nobody was there. So I hit my throttle, I leaned that bike. What I didn't realize is somebody just then started to pass me and I clipped her front bumper, and I went flipping. So I don't remember the accident self except for my bike kicking sideways. And then I remember waking up in the hospital and we're looking around and this this really bright light and really quiet area and I remember sitting up and I noticed kind of fuzzy there's somebody sitting in a chair and my lapse my vision got clear is my wife. So I asked her where am I at and what seemed like was kind of an exasperated going to tell me for the 40th time you're in the hospital. You had an accident, and she started explaining things.   Well, what what ended up happening is when I went flipping, I used to race mountain bike so I would instinctively talk I realized this because I had such a massive bruise. This is where I initially hit my my my helmet had big ol crack in it. When I hit it just obliterated my collarbone and a bunch of ribs. It collapsed my right lung when I flipped my legs hit and I shattered my legs and ended up skidding to a stop. So if you've ever been to Arizona in August, but the pavements not nice to lay on in August so I had a lot of burns. A lot of road rash And so I was in there for a couple of weeks in the hospital that a bolt me back together my memory at that point because the head injury we had pinwheel would basically flip every three minutes. I could only remember every three minutes and never reset, but little things would would stand out.   So there's some things I do remember, but a lot of it's gone. And then there's actually some stuff in my history that's gotten my I was with my sister and brother in law, and they showed me some pictures from their wedding. I'm like, I don't remember this. And they showed me pictures of me being there. And then they played the video Like, I have no idea about this night. So there's certain things in my history that are gone because of that accident. So kind of the point behind all that is, I wheeled into that hospital I was I was a mountain climber. I was a marathoner. I was in phenomenal shape, best shape of my life at the time, I weighed in at190 pounds, maybe 12% body fat, worse about on paper, because of my investments worth about three ish million dollars. When I wheeled out of that hospital weeks later, I was 156 pounds at six foot one, and I had a negative net worth of 1.5 million everything was taken from me.   So I had to start over from there. So I had to learn how to walk again. I had to train my memory back. And then I had to negotiate with everybody who is foreclosing on all my rental houses, they're coming after me for all the other debts. And because if it wasn't for the fact now, to me, it was a blessing. There's a lot of people that went through the crash. And they lost everything I know of people that ate bullets, they went back to their office and they shot themselves. I know people who did that. But I had the blessing of being able to negotiate with these creditors, and I'd send them my first week's medical bill for $1.7 million, and then immediately back off. And what I have is a certain amount of money left in the bank, that was all I had to my name. And it was about I think it was like five grand or something I don't remember exactly.   Well I called every creditor up that I owed money to that was calling me and I said here, here's how much I have in my account, you look at my credit report and how many people I owe, I will give you that if you agree to that and wipe the credit clean. So I negotiated that with every single person. And what I did then is then I had an underinsured motorist thing finally kick in months later. And I was able to use that to pay off everybody that one negotiated amount. So I got clear of the whole world and they let me do that because the nature of my accident. Not a lot of people had that. So they didn't have the blessing getting their *** kicked, and be able to leverage an *** whoopin to be able to get out of that right.   The other thing that was real tough about this *** whoopin was I came back to an obliterated business. The lending industry was not doing well and I got back on my feet about eight months later. And all the people I was doing business with before the realtors and people like that they were out of business. They were doing something else. There was two left in the industry, my mom and a gal by the name of Carolyn Irby with Coldwell Banker, they at that point, they were still doing business, they're getting deals done. And they call me up say, Hey, I got a client for you need to call this person, they would got to the point that they'd call me back five minutes later say, Hey, did you call that person like what person they said, Get your pad and write this down. So I got to I was carrying a notepad with me all the time, I'd write down what I do all day long. And the calls are supposed to make the outcomes of those calls. And then if it was crossed off, that means I did it. If it wasn't crossed off, then I would have to make this call. I can't tell you how many people I called that weren't crossed office. We just talked on the phone. Right? It's like well, can you can you tell me what we said.   So talk about earning trust, right? That's a real hard way to earn trust with somebody when five minutes before you don't even remember the conversation by explain the scenario. And people were very, very, very kind to me. Now. There were some saying, Hey, I can't do business with that does have a memory. There's a lot of people that were that did. And I rebuilt my business on that. And because of that notepad, I rebuilt my memory and I read, I was able to reconnect those wires in my head by the grace of God. And by just being very, very religious about maintaining my my pad, I wished I had my stack of pads, I throw them away, oh, I don't know why throw them away. But that was how I lived my life at that point. And I recovered back to a business that I built back up from zero to now. I get I start the the real estate investors coming into Arizona, and they're buying these houses that are undervalued. And so I started to do those loans. They were really little loans. There's like 50,000, or loans. Nobody's making a bunch of money on 50,000 our loans by doing a ton of them. And then I went from there to doing more and more they went from from Arizona to Indiana, Indiana, Missouri, Missouri, to Texas, and then over to Tennessee. And so I started doing more and more loans.   Well, then I had one of my biggest competitors, who was also a guy call and he'll give me pointers on how to do some of these loans are a little bit tougher. He decided in 2015 that we should merge our businesses. So when he flipped, they flew me out to Utah, I sat down with him and some of the executives in the company. Let's do that. So I merged the business with him. But you can only do the loans under one person's name. Well, since we're merging into his company, well, the company he worked for as a loan originator was put on to his name. Six months later, he pulled it all apart, took it off himself and left me at zero again. And it took my entire database.   Well, the executives called me up to say, um, we're probably at the fire your staff, and you're just gonna have to start over like, No, give me 90 days. So me and my staff have two or three, we sat down and we said, what are we going to do when the phone rings is going to ring in 10 minutes? What are we going to do with these deals, now, you don't have our big team anymore. And we mapped out a plan. And within six months, I was ranked number nine in the company. And within a year, I taken over the number one spot within the company. And now years later, that guy's out of the business. Because he I mean, that's what happens when you become selfish you and it's all about you, everybody leaves you he ended up all by himself, he end up not having a business anymore. He's completely out. I haven't heard anything from him, he got away from doing investor loans like three, four years ago. And I would venture to say I'm the number one guy in conventional lending for real estate investors. And last I saw by statistical numbers that was just published in a mortgage originator magazine, if you look at how many trends looking at by how many transactions closed per year, I think I'm right, number six or seven, the United States.   Michael: That's wild Aaron. That's so insane.   Aaron: And to me, a lot of people is like, how did you do all that and I'm like, you just every single day you have an objective and you keep moving forward. And it was actually, to me the noise of the world getting turned down around me and I was stuck to my own thoughts. You have to decide whether or not you agree with the person that you were and I would did not like the person I was at that time. I was a really arrogant, cocky prick before that accident. You know, I was dressing the part and acting department being the man. Now it's like, you know, I decided I'm just gonna be me. And if people don't like me, then then that's fine. I don't need to we don't need to do business. It's not about that I would do whatever I need to do to close a deal before. Now. I just want to make sure I get along with a person. And like one guy told me this last week, I thought it was really interesting. He says, Do you you just collect people? Like what do you mean I collect people because you collect relationships, because that's that's your investment, you invest you invest in things, but you spend money to make sure you have more relationships with people. And that's the truth.   And that came up because we talked about flying first class, one guy said he's really really cheap. The other guy said no, I love first class, I got pampered by it. They say you fly first class all the time. So yeah, I'm Executive Platinum with American Airlines, I spend more time in seat 3D and I do at my house. But it's not for the seat, or for the free drinks. It's for the person next to me. Because you'd be amazed at the kind of people you sit with in that environment and the kind of conversation you get to have. And they're all very, very memorable. If you'll just reach out and say hi.   Michael: Yeah, that's such a different way of approaching it. You know, so many people are going for the drinks or going for the big seat. Sounds like you could care less about that. Aaron: No, I mean, it's comfortable being a sibling I hate sitting in the back, because because of how much Americans have the room. Let me I'm not I'm not a fan. I do have to I do fly Allegiant from Arizona to to Missouri. So it's only one one stop to go to my place out in Missouri. So I still do it. I'm not a fan of it. I don't love it. We in fact, my family is dubbed at low rider of the sky. But when we go to kind of fly American, I'm, it's gonna be a long flight. I need to be comfortable. For two reasons. One, I've just gotten used to it. And I like sitting next to people I sit next to number two, I've lived the last What is it now? 12 years, 14 years in pretty heavy pain. And because of that pain, when we hit the sky, and they start pressurizing. I was doing a lot of pain in my shoulders, a lot of pain in my legs, my ankles are just both my feet were snapped off in that in that accident. So the extreme pain I was dealing with that. It's now gotten a lot less because I really took the time to rehab this last year, I went to rehab to physical therapists like crazy and we had loss and I got back to working out I got in a lot better shape than I've been in a long time in 14 years, honestly. And I feel awesome. But now the reasons I sit up there is not for the same reasons. It's for the it's for the relationships and like yourself, right? Well, I'm collecting people right here now. And now wherever I go. I see you as there's my guy. There's Mike.   Michael: Yeah, no, absolutely, absolutely. So Aaron, I mean, you've been like literally to hell and back again and came out on top. So for people that have maybe been never been through a downturn or a market cycle, if that's what we're headed into. And it sounds like that might not even be the case. I mean, what should people be doing to prepare, if they do find themselves with those shorter term loans coming due now?   Aaron: Well, and they're gonna come to at some point, even if it's not now, I think they need to be on the watch for any opportunity to put themselves into a longer term loan and have to bite the bullet or whatever that expense is. Do I believe, I mean, I think interest rates going to keep climbing to an extent they're gonna have to taper off because I can't see us continuing down this path. Interest rates are just, you know, mortgage backed securities are getting slaughtered, but I also can't see why anybody, anybody want to invest money in the mortgage backed security. Honestly, I don't understand why that money is flowing in there. Because if inflation is as high as it is, and you're going to lend somebody money, potential for 30 years risking it for 30 years, you're not getting your money back, you're losing money. But the marketing engine that is the real estate, the mortgage lending world, for the banking world, the marketing engine has convinced people, if you drop it 1%, you should refinance. And so the majority of people will refi, within the first four to five years, you're looking at an amortization, amortization table, the first four to five years, they're taking advantage of you, because you're all you're doing is paying an interest and then you put you back into a heavy interest period, they're gonna continue to keep them just just sucking money from you is what they're doing.   So they're, I believe, there's going to come a point that we're going to taper off, things might get a little bit better. And if it does that, within the next year or two, I'm going to highly encourage you, if you got suckered into a short term loan on a long term hold, get into a long term loan, get yourself comfortable. I always say control what you can control for as long as you can control it. And you can't do that in a short term loan. It's just not going to work that way. Michael: Yeah. No, I love it. And from a mindset perspective, I mean, it, I could see it so easily where you could have given up when you lost everything in a weight when you woke up from when you came out of the hospital, you know, went from a positive network to several millions and negative net worth overnight, seemingly? I mean, how do you get out of that? Because I think, again, it's so easy to go into despair and poor me. What kind of mindset does it take to lift yourself up from that?   Aaron: Yeah, that that was an interesting question to have to answer. Because not only do you have when you stack it all up, and I have to ask myself several times, how did I get where I'm at? Now, when I look back on that particular thing? It it was, like you said, you get your *** whooped that heavily. You're the everything's taken from you, you can't get you can't walk, you can't think you can't pay for anything. And they're giving you free drugs. And it wasn't just, it wasn't just weak drugs. This was good, good stuff. I don't know if you've ever had a lot of bad stuff. Is that amazing?   Michael: It's not Advil.   Aaron: No, it is definitely not Advil, and they were just willingly handing it to whatever you wanted, I had to get off of that. And I had to point myself in the right way. And I was still in a wheelchair, I was still having to deal with all this intense pain, I still had a lot of rods and stuff, multiple surgeries still being done. And I threw the stuff away and like, I don't want it, I gotta get my mind, right, I gotta get focused on where I needed to go. And what it was, as I've never sat still I just never had in my entire existence. So it was the drive to get up and get moving again. It was also that I always had an objective and a goal and where I was heading in life, even if it was just it was never really defined, but it was just kind of floating out there. I decided I was going to go after that I was going to continue after that. But I don't like to do is what was in front of me that day is day after day after day, day after day after day. But I think to the biggest driver at that point was I did not like the person I was before that accident. So I want to do everything I can to be anything but that man. And I am grateful that he was there to show me the way you shouldn't be doing things. But he was the biggest driver to continue to become something different.   And then after that the next big driver was I had a good friend of mine. His name's Joel. He's like a brother of mine. And it's it's a really long story to tell you how we met because we hate each other first. But now he's basically like my brother. And we went out one night with our wives. And at the end of dinner or after the event, we went to walk into our cars we have the opposite direction goes, Hey, by the way, I'm making a big deal happen right now me and my business partner, and it's going to change your life. Like how's it going to change my life? If you're making a deal, he goes, I can't tell you, he goes, but it's going to close here real soon. But it's going to change your life, believe me, I'm gonna change your life.   And as we parted ways, give him a hug. He turns around and walk in his car with both his hands and he goes, I'm going to change your life. And he yells out to me from like, 50 yards away, not knowing what that is. My colon changed my life, dude. Well, let's see what this is. Well, then, short time after that I found out he closed on the second largest. It's now the second largest real estate brokerage in the state of Arizona. And they'd made a deal with another lender to be their premier lender inside. What he wanted me to do is contact that lender and he told them call this guy, I want this guy in your company to work with us. So they called me and we talked about me coming over there. And to go over and meet with them and went through all the back contracts and everything. I'm like, Okay, well see how this goes. And they said we want you to come meet the CEO of the company, but you can't meet the CEO until you do this exercise and they hand me this five year vision that the CEO had for himself, you know, his five year plan and then they told me gave me the elements of the five year plan.   Cool. So I wrote this out like this is all bullcrap. Nobody does this. None of this crap works as goal setting stuff is stupid. But Fine, I'll do it. Just so I can meet the CEO, Joel opened up the door on going to do a jewel asked me to do like sat down. I wrote out this audacious freaking plan, right? The best month I've had before that was 18 Maybe 18 transaction that due in a month. And I think I closed maybe 20 Some million a year or 25 million, maybe 30 million year my best year. Well, I wrote this thing I was going to do 100 million a year and my staff is gonna grow by this and that in that net over the five year window, no ideas, I set it up as a story. I'm sitting on along Rubicon Trail in my chair with a fire gun. My wife's next to me, we got the Jeep parked there were searing steaks on the on the trail grill, and I'm thinking back on my life or last five years, and I'm writing a letter to myself of everything that happened.   So then I went forward, I met the CEO, he's like, this is the most unique five year plan I've ever seen written, we would love to have you come work for us. Now, incidentally, I didn't go work for those guys. It didn't work out. But I stuck with that five year plan. And I continue to follow that five year plan to go back and look at it look at it. I blew through everything on there and doubled it. Because I wrote it down. And then I discovered a few write things down things happen. So one of the next things that I'm doing, I have a book out there shows people I'm working on another book with Robert Allen, if you know who Robert Allen is, but we're working together on a book. So he wrote the book, no money down in the 80s. The guy was basically   Michael: Oh, yeah. Okay.   Aaron: So he's an absolute bad***. I mean, Robert is awesome. And we're writing this book as if me sitting there talking to an eight year old about how life or 18 year old about how life works. And it's taking a beating. So it's how to take a beating. And that beating is actually how you learn. And explain why believe that. And so on and on be teaching people within the first chapter, then all the way through the book on how to write this out, and then help people come to me will sit you down, I'll take it in an environment. And there's more stories about how that got done. And other ways I've used writing it down to become successful, and show people you write this stuff down. It's amazing how the universe starts to line up to get things done for you.   Now, when it comes to a beating, right, the one thing is that we have noticed that we as humans learn better by getting our butts kicked. And I believe that there's this Bigfoot that wakes up at about 7:30 Every day, this big, ominous invisible foot to kick your *** all day long if you let it. If you so think about this, I wake up at 4:30 in the morning, I get up way before the foot does and I do what I want to do, right I sit down, I send a message to my team, every single morning, I read, I write, I do the stuff that I need to do I have prayer before I get started all that and then I go and I work out every single day. So but if you're a person who wakes up at 7:45, and you got to be the office by eight, the foots already up, right, it's already kicking your *** the second you put your foot on the ground from from the from your bed to try and get to the bathroom, you stumble into this, you stumble into that your day is just wrong from the very beginning.   Get up before the foot does, you got to figure out where your personal foot wakes up. That's out there to kick your butt. And you got to get up before the foot doesn't plan your day and start executing on that. The other things that I've noticed with people, you know, how we learn, we do have to take a beating learn so you need to dissect every beat you've got so what am I learning from this? And how do I need to take from that, and let me illustrate how I know that. That's how that's true. I was six years old. And my parents put me in a Pentecostal school for my first grade year. I didn't go to kindergarten straight to first grade. And it was this Pentecostal church in this small town. And they had everything from first to high school senior all in one church and everybody had their own little thing and you had different teachers for all of it. And I segmented us first graders off for the first three months and we're meeting in the little room and they were teaching us the alphabet and numbers. And as they're going through the alphabet every letter was had a nursery rhyme style Limerick to it and a filmstrip. Now you may be a little too young to remember filmstrips. But it's up…   Michael: No I got it, I got it.   Aaron: Okay, so you got the film strips got the little thing. You'll play the music and here's the beep and you flip it to the next next slide, right? It's basically slides. Well, it was a it was the we got to the letter M. And the letter M was about this mule named Milton. And the way the nursery rhyme when it says Milton the mule he made a mistake as you read a map, you walked in a lake. And as it's going through those filmstrips, you've got this cartoon mule walking down the road, in a suit holding this map, and then you see him falling in this lake. Well me being me, even at six years old, I redid the limerick, and I said it out loud. So instead of having Milton falling out falling in a lake, I had him ******* in a bucket. I know it's stupid. Right? The six year old stuff. The little girl sitting next to me did what you just did, she laughed about it. That didn't go over well with the teacher. Now the teacher happened to be the wife of Noah, who was also the pastor. She heard all this so she grabbed both of your ear lobes. Walk the straight to the principal's office and sat us down in these chairs.   This guy was not a small guy. He was a big man. So he's the pastor. He's the principal. He made me repeat exactly what I said. When I was done. He turns around he picks up this old aircraft aluminum style briefcase, sets it on his desk, puts in the code opens it and very ceremoniously turns it so I can see the contents had a padded interior cut out to houses pattern. So then he pulls the paddle out makes us both stand up and turn around and put our hands on the on the chairs. She got one swap I got two because I'm the one that came up with the limerick. Now it wasn't that hard. My dad's Irish my mom was Spanish Believe me I that way harder buttons for a lot less than what that guy gave me. But it was The gravity of the situation that caused the tears to flow. And then I also knew I had to face my dad that night. He always told me if you go to the principal's office, you're getting an *** whoppin. Well, I did. I got a pretty good one. But ultimately, the main reason I bring that story up is there's how many letters in the English language?   Michael: There's 24   Aaron It's 26?   Michael: That's so embarrassing.   Aaron: I know. I googled that I thought it was 24 as well very recently, and I go, so yeah, there's 26. So 26 letters, which we just established. How many guy remember the limerick for?   Michael: How many did you remember the limerick for? You probably remembered him for all of them. But for sure M.   Aaron; Just one. That's the only one I remember. I remember the letter M. I don't know anything about the other ones. That was 42 years ago, I can only recite the one for letter M I don't remember what the other ones were about. I can't remember you even articulate what the letter A would have said for it be what it stood for. But remember what M step four? Why do I remember it because I got my *** beat. That's why.   So we as humans learn very well through a beating. So what I tell people don't take, don't take a beating is something that's bad, learn whatever you got to do, just don't take the same beating. There's nothing wrong with making mistakes, just make new mistakes. Because you're making new mistakes, you're still advancing. There's nobody, that people who fail to get ahead in life make the same mistake over again. The other there's another thing that they say is there's two types of people never amount to anything. A person that can't do it, they're told, and a person that can do nothing but. I would say take the time, and analyze that to people that will never amount to anything, a person that can't do what they're told, and a person that could do nothing but.   Those are some very, very powerful words to sit and think about. And you have to figure out who am I? What am I getting done? What kind of *** whopping am I taken on a daily basis? And I said the same one over and over again. What do I got to do to make adjustments so I could advance myself and get away from this beating I keep taking.   Michael: Man Mike drop exit stage left Aaron Chapman, everybody. This was so much fun, man. How do people get in touch with you if they need you?   Aaron: Best way is Aaron chapman.com Or just go to Google and type in Aaron chat and you see a bald bearded redneck lender you got the guy.   Michael: That's you awesome, man. This was so much fun. Aaron thank you again for coming on for the third time. This was definitely the one that did it. We'll do it. We'll be in touch man.   Aaron: Thanks, brother. Appreciate you man.   Michael: Likewise, you got it.   Okay, everyone that was our episode A big thank you to Aaron for coming on today and the other two episodes as well. If you didn't catch those, I highly recommend you give those listened to Aaron dropped some really fantastic wisdom, knowledge and thought perspective on where we're headed in the next couple of months and yours with the market.   As always, if you enjoyed the episode, we'd love to hear from you with a rating or review wherever it is get your podcasts and we look forward to seeing on the next one. Happy investing

About MichaelMichael is the creator of IT automation platforms Cobbler and Ansible, the latter allegedly used by ~60% of the Fortune 500, and at one time one of the top 10 contributed to projects on GitHub.Links Referenced: Speaking Tech: https://michaeldehaan.substack.com/ michaeldehaan.net: https://michaeldehaan.net Twitter: https://twitter.com/laserllama TranscriptAnnouncer: Hello, and welcome to Screaming in the Cloud with your host, Chief Cloud Economist at The Duckbill Group, Corey Quinn. This weekly show features conversations with people doing interesting work in the world of cloud, thoughtful commentary on the state of the technical world, and ridiculous titles for which Corey refuses to apologize. This is Screaming in the Cloud.Corey: This episode is sponsored by our friends at Revelo. Revelo is the Spanish word of the day, and its spelled R-E-V-E-L-O. It means “I reveal.” Now, have you tried to hire an engineer lately? I assure you it is significantly harder than it sounds. One of the things that Revelo has recognized is something I've been talking about for a while, specifically that while talent is evenly distributed, opportunity is absolutely not. They're exposing a new talent pool to, basically, those of us without a presence in Latin America via their platform. It's the largest tech talent marketplace in Latin America with over a million engineers in their network, which includes—but isn't limited to—talent in Mexico, Costa Rica, Brazil, and Argentina. Now, not only do they wind up spreading all of their talent on English ability, as well as you know, their engineering skills, but they go significantly beyond that. Some of the folks on their platform are hands down the most talented engineers that I've ever spoken to. Let's also not forget that Latin America has high time zone overlap with what we have here in the United States, so you can hire full-time remote engineers who share most of the workday as your team. It's an end-to-end talent service, so you can find and hire engineers in Central and South America without having to worry about, frankly, the colossal pain of cross-border payroll and benefits and compliance because Revelo handles all of it. If you're hiring engineers, check out revelo.io/screaming to get 20% off your first three months. That's R-E-V-E-L-O dot I-O slash screaming.Corey: This episode is sponsored in part by LaunchDarkly. Take a look at what it takes to get your code into production. I'm going to just guess that it's awful because it's always awful. No one loves their deployment process. What if launching new features didn't require you to do a full-on code and possibly infrastructure deploy? What if you could test on a small subset of users and then roll it back immediately if results aren't what you expect? LaunchDarkly does exactly this. To learn more, visit launchdarkly.com and tell them Corey sent you, and watch for the wince.Corey: Once upon a time, Docker came out and change an entire industry forever. But believe it or not, for many of you, this predates your involvement in the space. There was a time where we had to manage computer systems ourselves with our hands—kind of—like in the prehistoric days, chiseling bits onto disk and whatnot. It was an area crying out for automation, as we started using more and more computers to run various websites. “Oh, that's a big website. It needs three servers now.” Et cetera.The times have changed rather significantly. One of the formative voices in that era was Michael DeHaan, who's joining me today, originally one of the—or if not the creator of Cobbler, and later—for which you became better known—Ansible. First, thanks for joining me.Michael: Thank you for having me. You're also making me feel very, very old there. So, uh, yes.Corey: I hear you. I keep telling people, I'm in my mid-30s, and my wife gets incensed because I'm turning 40 in July. But still. I go for the idea of yeah, the middle is expanding all the time, but it's always disturbing talking to people who are in our sector, who are younger than some of the code that we're using, which is just bizarre to me. We're all standing on the backs of giants. Like it or not, one of them's you.Michael: Oh, well, thank you. Thank you very much. Yeah, I was, like, talking to some undergrads, I was doing a little bit of stuff helping out my alma mater for a little bit, and teaching somebody the REST lecture. I was like, “In another year, REST is going to be older than everybody in the room.” And then I was just kind of… scared.Corey: Yeah. It's been a wild ride for basically everyone who's been around long enough if you don't fall off the teeter-totter and wind up breaking a limb somewhere. So, back in the bad old days, before cloud, when everything was no longer things back then were constrained by how much room you had on your credit card like they are today with cloud, but instead by things like how much space you had in the data center, what kind of purchase order you could ram through your various accounting departments. And one of the big problems you have is, great. So, finally—never on time—Dell has shipped out a whole bunch of servers—or HP or Supermicro or whoever—and the remote hands—which is always distinct from smart hands, which says something very insulting, but they seem to be good about it—would put them into racks for you.And great, so you'd walk in and see all of these brand new servers with nothing on them. How do we go ahead and configure these things? And by hand was how most of us started, and that means, oh, great, we're going to screw things up and not do them all quite the same, and it's just a treasure and a joy. Cobbler was something that you came up with that revolutionized how provisioning of bare-metal systems worked. Tell me about it.Michael: Yeah, um, so it's basically just glue. So, the story of how I came up with that is I was working for the Emerging Technologies Group at Red Hat, and I just joined. And they were like, “We have to have a solution to install Xen and KVM virtual machines.” So obviously, everybody's familiar with, like, EC2 and things now, but this was about people running non-VMware virtualization themselves. So, that was part of the problem, but in order to make that interesting, we really needed to have some automation around bare-metal installs.And that's PXE boot. So, it's TFTP and DHCP protocol and all that kind of boring stuff. And there was glue that existed, but it was usually humans would have to click on buttons to—like Red Hat had system-config-netboot, but what really happened was sysadmins all wrote their own automation at, like, every single company. And the idea that I had, and it was sort of cemented by the fact that, like, my boss, a really good guy left for another company and I didn't have a boss for, like, a couple years, was like, I'm just going to make IRC my boss, and let's get all these admins together and build a tool we can share, right?So, that was a really good experience, and it's just basically gluing all that stuff together to fully automate an install over a network so that when a system comes on, you can either pick it out from a menu; or maybe you've already got the MAC address and you can just say, “When you see this MAC address, go install this operating system.” And there's a kickstart file, or a preseed in the case of Debian, that says, “When you're booting up through the installer, basically, here's just the answers and go do these things.” And that install processes a lot slower than what we're used to, but for a bare-metal machine, that's a pretty good way to do it.Corey: Yeah, it got to a point where you could walk through and just turn on all the servers in a rack and go out to lunch, come back, they would all be configured and ready to go. And it sounds relatively basic the way we're talking about it now, but there were some gnarly cases. Like, “When I've rebooted the database server, why did it wipe itself and reprovision?” And it's, “Oh, dear.” And you have to make sure that things are—that there's a safety built into these things.And you also don't want to have to wind up plugging in a keyboard and monitor to all of these individual machines one-by-one to hit yes and acknowledge the thing. And it was a colossal pain in the ass. That's one of the things that cloud has freed us from.Michael: Yeah, definitely. And one of the nice things about the whole cloud environment is like, if you want to experiment with those ideas, like, I want to set up some DHCP or DNS, I don't have to have this massive lab and all the electricity and costs. But like, if I want to play with a load balancer, I can just get one. That kind of gives the experience of playing with all these data center technologies to everybody, which is pretty cool.Corey: On some level, you can almost view the history of all these things as speeding things up. With a well-tuned Cobbler install, it still took multiple minutes, in some cases, tens of minutes to go from machine you're powering on to getting it provisioned and ready to go. Virtual machines dropped that down to minutes. And cloud, of course, accelerated that a bit. But then you wind up with things like Docker and it gets down to less than a second. It's the meantime to dopamine.But in between the world of containers and bare-metal, there was another project—again, the one you're best known for—Ansible. Tell me about that because I have opinions on this whole space.Michael: [laugh]. Yeah. So, how Ansible got started—well, I guess configuration management is pretty old, so the people writing their own scripts, CFEngine came out, Puppet was a much better CFEngine. I was working at a company and I kind of wanted another open-source project because I enjoyed the Cobbler experience. So, I started Ansible on the side, kind of based on some frustrations around Puppet but also the desire to unify Capistrano kind of logic, which was like, “How do I push out my apps onto these servers that are already running,” with Puppet-style logic was like, “Is this computer's firewall configured directly? And is the time set correctly?”And you can obviously use that to install apps, but there's some places where that blurred together where a lot of people are using two different tools. And there's some prior art that I worked on called Funk, which I wrote with Seth Vidal and Adrian Likins at Red Hat, which was, like, 50% of the Ansible idea, and we just never built the config management layer on top. So, the idea was make something really, really simple that just uses SSH, which was controversial at the time because people thought it, like, wouldn't scale, because I was having trouble with setting up Puppet security because, like, it had DNS or timing issues or whatever.Corey: Yeah. Let's dive in a bit to what config management is first because it turns out that not everyone was living in the trenches in quite the same way that we were. I was a traveling trainer for Puppet for a summer once, and the best descriptor I found to explain it to people who are not in this space was, “All right, let's say that you go and you buy a new computer. What do you do? Well, you're going to install the applications you'd like to use, you're going to set up your own user account, you're going to set your password correctly, you're going to set up preferences, copy some files over so you have the stuff you care about. Great. Now, imagine you need to do that to a thousand computers and they all need to be the same. How do you do that?” Well, that is the world of configuration management.And there was sort of a bifurcation there, where there was the idea of, first, we're going to have configuration management that just describes what the system should look like, and that's going to run on a schedule or whatnot, and then you're going to have the other side of it, which is the idea of remote execution, of I want to run an arbitrary command on this server, or this set of servers, or all the servers, depending upon what it is. And depending on where you started on the side of that world, you wound up wanting things from the other side of that space. With Puppet, for example, is very oriented configuration management and the question became, well, can you use this for remote execution with arbitrary commands? And they wound up doing some work with Mcollective, which was a very complicated and expensive way to say, “No, not really.” There was a need for things that needed to hang out in that space.The two that really stuck out from that era were Ansible, which had its wild runaway success, and the one that I was smacking around for a bit, SaltStack, which never saw anywhere approaching that level of popularity.Michael: Yeah, sure. I mean, I think that you hit it pretty much exactly right. And it's hard to say what makes certain things take off, but I think, like, the just SSH approach was interesting because, well for one, everybody's running it. But there was this belief that this would not scale. And I tried to optimize the heck out of that because I liked performance, but it turns out that wasn't really a business problem because if you can imagine you just wrote this little bit of automation, and you're going to run it against your entire infrastructure and you've got 30,000 machines, do you want that to—if you were to, like, run an update command on 30,000 machines at once, you're going to DDoS something. Definitely, right?Corey: Yeah. Suddenly you have 30,000 machines all talk to the same things at the same times. And you want to do them in batches or smear it across.Michael: Right, so because that was there, like, you just add batch support in Ansible and things are fine, right? People want to target little small groups of things. So, like, that whole story wasn't true, and I think it was just a matter of testing this belief that everybody thought that we needed to have this whole network of things. And honestly, Salt's idea of using a message bus is great, but we took a little bit different approach with YAML because we have YAML variables in it, but they had something that compiled down to YAML. And I think those are some differences in the dialect and some things other people preferred, but—Corey: And they use Jinja, at one point to wind up making it effectively Turing complete; you could wind up having this ridicu—like, loop flow control and loops and the rest. And it was an interesting exposure to things, but yikes, at some l—at the same time.Michael: If you use all the language features in anything you can make something complicated, and too complicated. And I was like, I wanted automation to look like grocery lists. And when I started out, I said, “Hey, if anybody is doing this all day, for a day job, I will have failed.” And it clearly shows you that I have because there are people that are doing that all day. And the goal was, let me concentrate on dev and ops and my other things and keep this really, really simple.And some people just, like, get really, really into that automation technology, which is—in my opinion—why some of the earlier stuff was really popular because sysadmin were bored, so they see something new and it's kind of like a Java developer finding Perl for the first time. They're like, “I'm going to use all these things.” And they have all their little widgets, and it gets, like, really complicated.Corey: The thing that I always found interesting and terrifying at the same time about Ansible was the fact that you did ride on top of SSH, which is great because every company already had a way of controlling access by SSH to IT systems; everyone uses it, so it has an awful lot of eyes on the security protocol on the rest. The thing that I found terrifying in the early days was that more or less every ops person would wind up checking this out onto their laptop or whatnot, so whenever they wanted to run something, they would just run it from their laptop over a VPN or whatnot from wherever they happen to be, and you wind up with a dueling banjos type of circumstance where people were often not doing it from a centralized place. And in time, best practices emerged where, okay, that is going to be the command and control server where that runs at, and you log into it. And then you start guarding that with CI/CD flows and the rest. And like anything else, it wound up building some operational approaches to it.Michael: Yeah. Like, I kind of think that created a problem that allowed us to sell a product, right, which was good. If you knew what you were doing, you could use Jenkins completely and you'd be fine, right, if you had some level of discipline and access control, and you wanted to wire that up. And if you think about cloud, this whole, like, shadow IT idea of, “I just want to do this thing, therefore I'm going to get an Amazon account,” it's kind of the same thing. It's like, “I want to use this config management, but it's not approved. Who can stop me?” Right?And that kind of probably got us in the door in few accounts that way. But yeah, it did definitely create the problem where multiple people could be running things at the same time. So yeah, I mean, that's true.Corey: And the idea of, “Hey, maybe I should be controlling these things in Git,” or some other form of version control was sort of one of those evolutionary ideas that, oh, we could treat this like code. And the early days of DevOps, that was a controversial thing. These days, you say you're not doing it and people look at you very strangely. And things were going reasonably well in that direction for a while. Then this whole Docker thing showed up, where, well, what if instead of having these long-lived servers where you have to install updates and run patches and maintain a whole user list on them, instead you had this immutable infrastructure that every time there was a change, you would just go ahead and deploy a brand new set of servers?And you could do this in the olden days with virtual machines and whatnot; it just took a long time to push things out, so do I really want to roll the entire fleet for a two-line config change? Probably not, so we're going to batch it up, or maybe do this hybrid model. With Docker, it takes less than a second to wind up provisioning the—switching over to the new container series and you're done; you can keep going with that. That really solved a lot of these problems.But there were companies that, like, the entire configuration management space, who suddenly found themselves in a really weird position. Some of them tried to fight the tide forever and say, “Oh, this is terrible because it means we don't have a business model anymore.” But you can only fight the future for so long. And I think today, we'd be hard-pressed to say that Docker hasn't won, on some level.Michael: I mean, I think it has, like, the technology has won. But I guess the interesting thing is, config management now seems to be trying to pivot towards networking where I think the tool hasn't ever been designed for networking, so it's kind of a round peg, square hole. But it's all people have that unless they're buying something. Or, like, deploying the undercloud because, like, people are still running essentially clouds on top of clouds to get their Kubernetes deployments going and those are monstrous. Or maybe to deploy a data layer; like, I know Kafka has gotten off of ZooKeeper, but the Kafka-ZooKeeper thing—and I don't remember ZooKeeper [unintelligible 00:14:37] require [unintelligible 00:14:38] or not, but managing those sort of long, persistent implications, it still has a little bit of a place where it exists.But I mean, I think the whole immutable systems idea is theoretically completely great. I never was really happy with the whole Docker development workflow, and I think it does create a problem where people don't know what they're deploying and you kind of encourage that to where they could be deploying different versions of libraries, or—and that's kind of just a problem of the whole microservices thing in general where, “Did somebody change this?” And then I was working very briefly at one company where we essentially built a whole dashboard to detect service versions and what version of the base image everybody was on, and all these other things, and it can get out of hand, too. So, it's kind of like trading some problems for other problems, I think to me. But in general, containerization is good. I just wished the management glue around it was easy, right?Corey: I wound up giving a talk at a conference a while back, 2015 or so, called, “Heresy in the Church of Docker,” and it was a throwaway five-minute lightning talk, and someone approached me afterwards with, “Hey, can you give the full version of that at ContainerCon?” “There's a full version? Yes. Yes, I can.” And it talked about a number of problems with the management layer and the rest.Now, Kubernetes absolutely solves virtually every problem that I identified with it, but when you look at the other side of it, getting Kubernetes rolled out is effectively you get to cosplay being a cloud provider yourself. It is incredibly complicated, and of course, we're right back to managing it all with YAML.Michael: Right. And I think that's an interesting point, too, is I don't know who's exactly responsible for, like, the YAML explosion. And I like it as a data format; it's really good for humans. Cobbler originally used it more of an internal storage, which I think was a mistake because, like, even—I was trying to avoid setting up a database at the time, so—because I knew if I had to require setting up a database in 2007 or 2008, I'd get way less users, so it used flat files.A lot of the YAML dialects people are developing now are very, very nested and they requires, like, loading a webpage, for the Docks, like, all the time and reading what's valid here, what's valid there. I think people learn the wrong lesson from Ansible's YAML usage, right? It was supposed to be, like, YAML's good for things that are grocery lists. And there's a lot of places where I didn't do a good job. But when you see methods taking 15 parameters and you have to constantly have the reference up, maybe that's a sign that you should do something else.Corey: At least you saved us, on some level, from having to do this all in XML. But still, there are wrong ways and more wrong ways to do it. I don't think anyone could ever agree on the right way to approach these things.Michael: Yeah. I mean, and YAML, at the time was a good answer because I knew I didn't want to write and maintain a parser as, like, a guy that was running a project. We had a lot of awesome contributors, but if I had to also maintain a DSL, not only does that mean that I have to write the code for this thing—which I, you know, observed slowing down some other projects—but also that I'd have to explain it to people. Looking kind of like Bash was not a bad thing. Not having to know and learn something, so you can kind of feel really effective in about 15 minutes or something like that.Corey: One of the things that I find really interesting about you personally is that you were starting off in a bare-metal world; Ansible was sort of wherever you wanted to run it. Great, as long as there are systems that can receive these things, we're great. And now the world has changed, and for better or worse, configuration management slash remote execution is not the problem it once was and it is not a best practice way of solving a lot of those problems either. But you aren't spending your time basically remembering the glory years. You're actively moving forward doing some fairly interesting stuff. How would you describe what you're into these days?Michael: I tried to create a few projects to, like, kind of build other systems management things for the same audience for a while. I was building a build server and a new—trying to do some next-gen config stuff. And I saw people weren't interested. But I like having conversations with people, right, and I think one of the lessons from Ansible was how to explain highly technical things to technical audiences and cut out a lot of the marketing goo and all that; how to get people excited about an idea and make a community be really authentic. So, I've been writing about that for really, it's—rebooted blog is only a couple of weeks old. But also kind of trying to do some—helping out companies with some, like, basic marketing kind of stuff, right?There's just this pattern that everybody has where every website starts with this little basic slogan and two buttons and then there's a bunch of adjectives, but it doesn't say anything. So, how can you have really good documentation, and how can you explain an idea? Because, like, really, the reason you're in it is not just to sell stuff, but it's to help people and to see them get excited about your ideas. And there's just, like, we're not doing a good job in this, like, world where there's thousands upon thousands of applications, all competing at once to, like—how do you rise above that?Corey: And that's always the hard part is at some point, this does become your identity and you become known for a thing. And when you start branching out from that thing, you bring the expertise from that area that you were in, but you start applying it to new things. I feel like so many companies get focused—and people get focused—on assuming that their audience is just like them, where they're coming in with the exact same biases, the exact same experiences. And given that basically no one was as deep in the weeds as you were when it came to configuration management, that meant that you were spending time in that side of the world, not in other pursuits which aligned in some ways more directly with people developing other things. So, I suspect this might be one of the weird things we have in common when we show up and see something new.And a company is really excited. It's like, it's basically a few people talking [unintelligible 00:20:12] that both founders are technical. And they're super excited about something they can't quite articulate. And it's this, “Slow down. Tell me exactly what it is your product does.” And that's a hard thing to do because my default response was always the if I don't understand that is clearly the way in which I am deficient somehow. But marketing is really about clear communication and there's not that much of it in our space, at least not for early-stage companies.Michael: Yeah, I don't know why that is. I mean, I think there's this belief in that there's, like, this buyer audience where there's some vice president that's going to buy your stuff if you drop the right buzzwords. And 15 years ago, like, you had to say ‘synergy,' and now you say ‘time to value' or ‘total cost of ownership' or something. And I don't think that's true. I mean, I think people use products that they like and that they need to be shown them to try them out.So like, why can't your webpage have a diagram and a screenshot instead of this, like, picture of a couple of people drinking coffee around a computer, right? It's basic stuff. But I agree with you, I kind of feel dumb when I'm looking at all these tech products that I should be excited about, and, like, the way that we get there, as we ask questions. And the way that I've actually figured out what some of these things do is usually having to ask questions from someone who uses them that I randomly find on my diminishing circle of friends, right? And that's kind of busted.So, Ansible definitely had a lot of privilege in the way that it was launched in the sense that I launched it off Cobbler list and Cobbler list started off of [ET Management Tools 00:21:34] which was a company list. But people can do things like meetup groups really easily, they can give talks, they can get their blogs reblogged, and, you know, hope for some Hacker News or Reddit juice or whatever. But in order to get that to happen, you have to be able to talk to engineers that really want to know what you're doing, and they should be excited about it. So, learn to talk to them.Corey: You have to speak their language but without going so deep in the weeds that the only people that understand it are the folks who are never going to use your product because they want to build it themselves. It's a delicate balance to strike.Michael: And it's a difficult thing to do, too, when you know about it. So, when I was, like, developing all the Ansible docs, I've told people many times—and I hope it's true—that I, like, spent, like, 40% of my time just on the website and the docs, and whenever I heard somebody complain, I tried to fix it. But the idea was like, you can lose somebody really fast, but you kind of have to forget what you know about the product. So, the worst person to sometimes look at that as the person that built it. So, you have to forget what you know, and try to see, like, what questions they're asking, what do they need to find out? How do they want to learn something?And for me, I want to see a lot of pictures. A lot of people write a bunch of giant walls of text, or worse for me is when there's just these little pithy expressions and I don't know what they mean, right? And everybody's, like, kind of doing that these days.Corey: This episode is sponsored in part by our friends at ChaosSearch. You could run Elasticsearch or Elastic Cloud—or OpenSearch as they're calling it now—or a self-hosted ELK stack. But why? ChaosSearch gives you the same API you've come to know and tolerate, along with unlimited data retention and no data movement. Just throw your data into S3 and proceed from there as you would expect. This is great for IT operations folks, for app performance monitoring, cybersecurity. If you're using Elasticsearch, consider not running Elasticsearch. They're also available now in the AWS marketplace if you'd prefer not to go direct and have half of whatever you pay them count towards your EDB commitment. Discover what companies like Equifax, Armor Security, and Blackboard already have. To learn more, visit chaossearch.io and tell them I sent you just so you can see them facepalm, yet again.48]Corey: One thing that I've really found myself enjoying recently has been your substack-based newsletter, Speaking Techis what you call it. And I didn't quite know what to expect when I signed up for it, but it's been a few weeks now, and you are more or less hitting across the board on a bunch of different things, ranging from engineering design patterns, to a teardown of random company's entire website from a marketing and messaging perspective—which I just adore personally; like that is very aligned with how I see the world—Michael: There's more of that coming.Corey: Yeah, [unintelligible 00:23:17] a bunch of other stuff. Let's talk about, for example, the idea of those teardowns. I always found that I have to be somewhat careful in how I talk about it when I'm doing a tweet thread or something like that because you are talking about people's work, let's be clear here, and I tend to be a lot kinder to small, early-stage companies than I am to, you know, $1.6 trillion companies who really should have solved for this by now, on some level. But so much of it misses the mark of great, here's the way that I think about these things. Here's the way that I don't understand what the hell you're telling me.An easy example of this for me, at least I'm curious to get your thoughts on it, I tend to almost always just skim what they're saying, great. Let's look at the pricing page because I find that speaks to people in a way that very often companies forget that they're speaking to customers.Michael: Yeah, for sure. I always tried to find the product page lately, and then, like, the product page now is, like, a regurgitation of the homepage. But it's what you said earlier. I think I try to stay nice to everybody, but it's good to show people how to understand things by counterexample, to some extent, right? Like, oh, I've got some stuff coming out—I don't know when this is actually going to get published—but next week, where I was like just taking random snippets of home pages, and like, “What's everybody doing with the header these days?”And there's just, like, ridiculous amounts of copying going on. But it's not just for, like, people's companies because everybody listening here isn't going to have a company. If you have a project and you wanted to get it noticed, right, I think, like, in the early days, the projects that I paid attention to and got excited about were often the ones that spend time on their website and their messaging and their experience. So, everybody kind of understands you have to write a good readme now but some of, like, the early Ruby crowd, for instance, did awesome, awesome web pages. They know how to pick out fonts, and I still don't know how to pick out fonts. But—Corey: I ask someone good at those things. That's how I pick ‘em.Michael: Yeah, yeah. That's not my job; get somebody that's good at that. But all that matters, right? So, if you do invest a little bit in not promoting yourself, not promoting your company, but trying to help people and communicate to them, you can build that audience around your thing and it makes it a lot more interesting.Corey: There's so many great tools out there that I find on GitHub that other people have to either point me to or I find it when I'm looking at it from a code-first perspective, just trying to find a particular example of the library being used, where they do such a terrible job of describing the problem that they solve, and it doesn't take much; it takes a paragraph or two at most. Or the idea that, “Oh, yeah, here's a way to do this thing. Just go ahead and get your credential file somewhere else.” Great. Could you maybe link to an example of how to do that?It's the basic stuff; assume that someone who isn't you might possibly want to use this. And I'm not even slightly suggesting that you wind up talking your way through how to do all of that. Just link to somewhere that has a good write-up of it and call it good. Just don't get in the way of people's first-time user experiences.Michael: Yeah, for sure. And—Corey: For some reason, that's a radical thought.Michael: Yeah, I think one of the things the industry has—well, not the industry; it's not their problem to solve, but, like, we don't really have a way for people to find what's cool and interesting anymore. So, various people have their own little lists on GitHub or whatever, but there's just so many people posting on the one or two forums people read and it goes by in a day. So, it's really, really hard to get attention. Even your own circle of followers isn't really logging into Twitter or anything, or LinkedIn. Or there's all the congratulations for your five years of Acme Corp kind of posts, and it's really, really hard to get attention.And I feel for everybody, so like, if somebody like GitHub or Microsoft is listening, and you wanted to build, like, a dashboard of here's the cool 15 projects for the week, kind of thing where everybody would see it, and start spotlight some of these really cool new things, that would be awesome, right?Corey: Whenever you see those roundups, that was things like Kubernetes and Docker. And great, I don't think those projects need the help in the same way.Michael: No, no, they don't. It's like maybe somebody's cool data thing, or a cool visualization, or the other thing that's—it's completely random, but I used to write fun graphics programs for fun or games and libraries. And I don't see that anymore, right? Maybe if you find it, you can look for it, but the things that get people excited about programming. Maybe they have no commercial value at all, but the way that people discover stuff is getting so consolidated is about Docker and Kubernetes. And everyone's talking about these three things, and if you're not Google or you're not Facebook, it's really—or Amazon, obviously—it's hard to get attention.Corey: Open-source on some level has changed from a community perspective. And part of it is because once upon a time, you could start with the very low-level stuff and build something, get it up and working. And that's where things like [Cobbler 00:27:44] and Ansible came out of. Now it's, “Click the button and use the thing everyone else is using. And if you're not doing that, what are you doing over there?”So, the idea of getting started tinkering with computers are built on top of so many frameworks and other things. And that's always been the case, but now it's much more apparent in some ways. “Okay, I'm going to go ahead and build out my first HTML file and serve it out using something in Node.” “Great, what is those NPM stuff that's scrolling past?” It's like, “The devil. That is the devil's own language you are seeing scroll past. And you don't need to worry about that; just pretend it's not there.”But back when I was learning all this stuff, we're paying attention to things scrolling past, like, you know, compilation messages and the Linux boot story as it wound up scrolling past. Terrible story; the protagonist was unreliable, but all right. And you start learning how these things work when you start scratching at the things that you're just sort of hand-waving and glossing over. These days, it feels like every time I use a modern project, that's everything.Michael: I mean, it is. And like what, React has, like, 2000 dependencies, right? So, how do you ever feel like you understand it? Or when recruiters are asking for ten years at Amazon. And then—or we find a library that it can only explain itself by being like this other library and requiring these other five.And you read one of those, and it becomes, like, this… tree of knowledge that you have no way of possibly understanding. So, we've just built these stacks upon stacks upon stacks of things. And I tend to think I kind of believe in minimalism. And like, wouldn't it be cool if we just burned this all and start—you know, we burn the forest and let something new regrow. But we tend to not do that. We just—now running a cloud on top of a cloud, and our JavaScript is thousands of miles high.Corey: I really wish that there were better paths for getting started. Like, I used to think that the right way to wind up learning how all this stuff work is to do what I did: Start off as, you know, the grumpy sysadmin type, and then—or help desk—and then work your way up and the rest. Those jobs aren't there anymore, and it doesn't leave people in a productive environment. “Oh, you want to build a computer game. Great. For an iPhone? Terrific.” Where do you go to get started on that? It's a hard thing to do.And people don't care at that scale, nor should they necessarily, on how to run your own servers. Back in the day when you wanted to have a blog on the internet, you were either reduced to using LiveJournal or MySpace, or you were running your own web server and had to learn how to make sure that it didn't become an attack platform. There was a learning curve that was fairly steep. Now, there are so many different paths to go down, you don't really need to know how any of these things even work.Michael: Yeah, I think, like, one of the—I don't know whether DevOps means anything as a topic or not, but one of the original pieces around that movement was systems administrators learning to code things and really starting to enjoy it, whether that was Python or Ruby, and so on. And now it feels like we're gluing all the things together, but that's happening in App Dev as well, right? The number of people that can build a really, really good library from the ground up, like, something that has C bindings, that's a really, really small crowd. And most of it, what we're doing is gluing together other people's libraries and compensating for the flaws and bugs in them, and duct tape and error handling or whatever. And it feels like programming has changed a lot because of this—and it's good if you want to get an idea up quickly, no doubt. But it's a different experience.Corey: The problem I always ran into was the similar problems I had with doing Debian packaging. It was always the, oh, great, there's going to be four or five different guides on how to do it—same story with RPM—and they're all going to be assuming different things, and you can crossover between them without realizing it. And then you just do something monstrous that kind of works until an actual Debian developer shoves you aside like you were a hazard to everyone around you. Let me do it for you. And there we go.It's basically, get people to do work for you by being really bad at it. And I don't love that pattern, but I'm still reminded of that because there are so many different ways to achieve any outcome that, okay, I want to run a ridiculous Hotdog or Not Hotdog style website out there. Great. I can upload things. Well, Docker or serverless? What provider do I want to put it on? And oh, by the way, a lot of those decisions very early on are one-way doors that you don't realize you're crossing through, as well as not knowing what the nuances of all of those things are. And that's dangerous.Michael: I think people are also learning the vendor as well, right? Some people get really engrossed in whether it's Amazon, or Google, or HashiCorp, or somebody's API, and you spend so much of your brain cells just learning how these people's systems work versus, like, general programming practices or whatever.Corey: I make it a point to build something on other cloud providers that aren't Amazon every now and then, just because I don't want to wind up effectively embracing a monoculture.Michael: Yeah, for sure. I mean, I think that's kind of the trend I see with people looking just at the Kubernetes stuff, or whatever, it's that I don't think it necessarily existed in web dev; there seems to be a lot of—still a lot of creativity and different frameworks there, but people are kind of… what's popular? What gets me my next job, and that kind of thing. Whereas before it was… I wasn't necessarily a sysadmin; I kind of stumbled into building admin tools. I kind of made hammers not houses or whatever, but basically, everybody was kind of building their own tools and deciding what they wanted. Now, like, people that are wanting to make money or deciding what people want for them. And it's kind of not always the simplest, easiest thing.Corey: So, many open-source projects now are—for example, one that I was dealing with recently was the AWS CLI. Great, like, I'm thrilled to throw in issues and challenges here, but I'm not going to spend significant time writing code against it because, one, it's basically impossible to get these things accepted when all the maintainers work at Amazon, and two, is it really an open-source project in the way that you and I think about community and the rest, but it's basically sole purpose is to funnel money to Amazon faster. Like, that isn't really a community ethos I feel comfortable getting behind to be perfectly honest. They're a big company; they can afford to pay people to build these things out, full time.Michael: Yeah. And GitHub, I mean, we all mostly, I think, appreciate the fact that we can host the Git repo and it's performant and everything, and we don't have blazing unicorns quite as often or whatever they used to have, but it kind of changed the whole open-source culture because we used to talk about things on mailing lists, like, what should this be, and there was like an upfront conversation, or it might happen on IRC. And now people are used to just saying, “I've got a problem. Fix it for me.” Or they're throwing code over the wall and it might not be the code or feature that you wanted because they're not really part of your thing.So before, people would get really engrossed with, like, just a couple of projects, and if they were working on them as kind of like a collective of people working against different organizations, we'd talk about things, and they kind of know what was going on. And now it's very easy to get a patch that you don't want and you're, like, “Oh, can you change all of these things?” And then somebody's, like, now they're offended because now they have to do all this extra work, whereas that conversation didn't happen. And GitHub could absolutely remodel themselves to encourage those kinds of conversations and communities, but part of the death of open-source and the fact that now it's, “Give me free code,” is because of that kind of absence of the—because we're looking at that is, like, the front of a community versus, like, a conversation.Corey: I really want to appreciate your taking so much time out of your day to basically reminisce about some of these things. But on a forward-looking basis, if people want to learn more about how you see things, where's the best place to find you?Michael: Yeah. So, if you're interested in my blog, it's pretty random, but it's michaeldehaan.substack.com. I run a small emerging consultancy thing off of michaeldehaan.net. And that's basically it. My Twitter is laserllama if you want to follow that. Yeah, thank you very much for having me. Great conversation. Definitely making all this technology feel old and busted, but maybe there's still some merit in going back—Corey: Old and busted because it wasn't built this year? Great—Michael: Yes.Corey: —yes, its legacy, which is a condescending engineering term for ‘it makes money.' Yeah, there's an entire universe of stuff out there. There are companies that are still toying with virtualization: “Is this something we get on board with?” There's nothing inherently wrong with that. I find that judging what a bunch of startups are doing or ‘company started today' is a poor frame of reference to look at what you should do with your 200-year-old insurance company.Michael: Yeah, like, [unintelligible 00:35:53] software engineering is just ridiculously new. Like, if you compare it to, like, bridge-building, or even electrical engineering, right? The industry doesn't know what it's doing and it's kind of stumbling around trying to escape local maxima and things like that.Corey: I will, of course, put links to where to find you into the [show notes 00:36:09]. Thanks again for being so generous with your time. It's appreciated.Michael: Yeah, thank you very much.Corey: Michael DeHaan, founder of Cobbler, Ansible, and oh, so much more than that. I'm Cloud Economist Corey Quinn, and this is Screaming in the Cloud. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice—and/or smash the like and subscribe buttons on the YouTubes—whereas if you've hated this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, smash the buttons as mentioned, and leave a loud, angry comment explaining what you hated about it that I will then summarily reject because it wasn't properly formatted YAML.Corey: If your AWS bill keeps rising and your blood pressure is doing the same, then you need The Duckbill Group. We help companies fix their AWS bill by making it smaller and less horrifying. The Duckbill Group works for you, not AWS. We tailor recommendations to your business and we get to the point. Visit duckbillgroup.com to get started.Announcer: This has been a HumblePod production. Stay humble.

Michael Benezra is the Executive Director and Co-Founder of the GK Fund: a nonprofit social impact fund to support BIPOC-owned companies in Greater Boston. Michael also serves as the COO of Colette Phillips Communications, helping to lead the All Inclusive Boston (https://www.bostonusa.com/allinclusivebos/) tourism campaign, among other projects. Chad talks with Michael about being a BIPOC ally, disparities amongst the VC world, and how the GK Fund looks for the same things in BIPOC-owned companies that they look for in other companies because the innovation is there; it's just that the opportunity isn't. The GK Fund (https://www.thegkfund.org/) Follow The GK Fund on Twitter (https://twitter.com/GK_Fund) or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/thegkfund/). Colette Phillips Communications (https://www.cpcglobal.com/) All Inclusive Boston (https://www.bostonusa.com/allinclusivebos/) Black Owned Bos. (https://www.blackownedbos.com/) Follow Michael on Twitter (https://twitter.com/MichaelBenezra) or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelbenezra/). Follow thoughtbot on Twitter (https://twitter.com/thoughtbot) or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/150727/). Become a Sponsor (https://thoughtbot.com/sponsorship) of Giant Robots! Transcript: CHAD: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Chad Pytel, and with me today is Michael Benezra, Executive Director and Co-founder of the GK Fund, a non-profit social impact fund to support BIPOC-owned companies in Greater Boston. Michael is also the COO of Colette Phillips Communications, helping to lead the All Inclusive Boston Tourism Campaign, among other projects. Michael, thank you for joining me. MICHAEL: Thanks for having me. CHAD: I'm curious about the GK Fund. When did you start the Fund? MICHAEL: So, at the time, I was working for the Israeli Foreign Ministry, and I was working with venture capital firms, private equity firms. And I was representing over 200 Israeli companies in New England, most of them startups. And my wife is Black; my family is Black. I've been close to that community for a long time. And especially in the venture capital world, I started to see some real disparities amongst other disparities in general everyday life, but it was particularly bad in the VC world. And so Colette being a mentor and a friend of mine, Colette Phillips, I approached her, and I said, "Hey, what do you think about starting this fund, this non-profit fund?" And her and Andre Porter, who is our other co-founder who used to be the head of the state's business development agency in Massachusetts, we all decided to band together and start this non-profit. Now, we started the non-profit in December of 2019, so the pandemic hit right as we were creating this organization. And we had a decision to make, do we put this on hold, or do we move forward and accelerate? And we decided to just move forward. CHAD: Well, I'm glad you did. I'm glad you made that decision. Hopefully, you feel the same way. [laughs] MICHAEL: Yeah, I do. CHAD: You're absolutely right. There's a big need here. And I actually have had over the last two months or so a few different guests that are creating VC funds or funds of certain kind that address underrepresented communities, Black, another one was veterans. And there's such a big need. How did you decide what you were going to focus on or focus down into so, for example, focusing on Boston? MICHAEL: For Boston specifically, it had to do mostly with proximity. So I went to Harvard here for grad school. I worked for Governor Patrick. And so, for me, it was natural to stay local, especially during COVID. In my experience, there were a lot of BIPOC, particularly Black-owned startups, that were on paper akin to a lot of other startups in the Israeli world, which were very developed or also in the United States. I'll give you an example; there was a company that I worked with that had a $100 million valuation but had no products, no physical products. They had no revenue, but they had innovation. Now, you and I being very honest, do you think a Black-owned company could get away with that? CHAD: Yeah, no. MICHAEL: There is no way. I knew that; the other entrepreneurs that I've talked to know that. That is a terrible double standard that needs to be fixed. So we look for the same things in BIPOC companies that we look for in other companies because, for the most part, the innovation is there; it's just that the opportunity isn't. CHAD: Yeah. To dig into that a little bit more, I think one might say, well, if they had a founding team that had a proven track record, then maybe. And that's where you get to the fact that it's systemic, too, because if the headwinds are there where they can never get that experience, to begin with, they never get that opportunity, to begin with, then they're not going to have a founding team that has a track record that will be invested in based on just the team. MICHAEL: That is 100% accurate, but it's actually even worse. So we do not ask our founders in the application process for their educational background. But all six of the companies that got grants from us last November they all have their bachelor's, four out of six have masters or higher. And so the cream definitely rose to the top. We had a store owner she owns an online boutique who got an engineering degree from Purdue. And we also have an entrepreneur who was an attorney at State Street, a corporate attorney, and now he's created this startup. And so, in some cases, like in most other areas, these individuals are overqualified. CHAD: So, what is the funding model for GK on both sides of the equation? Where is the money coming from, and then how are you funding the companies? MICHAEL: So we raise money organically like any other non-profit does. So we apply for grants. We take corporate donations. We take individual contributions online. Most of our money so far has come in through corporate contributions. So PNC Bank has been with us since the beginning. They made a very large commitment to supporting racial equity, and they've really stuck to it. The Bar Foundation has been exceptional. And then we've also had a group of individual donors who were actually White women who have started their own non-profit now, and they've also banded together to give us money that we need to re-grant to the companies. We have over 100,000 from the State of Massachusetts to operate a grant program. So money is coming through a number of different avenues. We've issued six micro-grants so far at $10,000 each. We did that in November. We plan to do ten more in the next month. I said in the Boston Business Journal article you can give us money, but you can't park it with us like you could with a donor-advised fund and watch it accumulate interest for 15 years. We're going to take it, and we're going to give it to the people that need it the most. CHAD: And are they grants then? You're using the word grants, so I assume that they are. So you're not doing this in exchange for equity in the companies? MICHAEL: No, no equity in the companies, no convertible notes, just a straight capital grant directly to the company. So I send a message over to our fiscal sponsors at Philanthropy Massachusetts. They send the check directly over to the company. After that, we have the company fill out a survey letting us know what they plan to use it for, but we're not overly prescriptive. And that's actually the way that philanthropy is heading right now is, putting fewer restrictions and barriers in the way. And that's another thing I'll talk about as well is making it easier for companies to gain access. CHAD: So, did you ever consider more of a traditional VC fund model with this? MICHAEL: Yeah, originally, I did. Before the pandemic, actually, I did. So the original purpose or impetus of the fund was to take companies that were coming out of accelerator programs that were underfunded. You have some great accelerators, but you have companies leaving with a business plan and $2,000. In some cases, there are companies that have been through three accelerator programs. They're not getting as much out of it as they should. I wanted us to intervene, find the companies that have the most potential, and make investments. But after COVID hit, it was a crisis. And so, we needed to shift our focus to philanthropy. CHAD: The nice thing about that is then you can do those grants with basically no strings attached for the companies. Whereas if you were taking money from people who expect to get a return on that investment, you wouldn't be able to do that. MICHAEL: That's exactly right. There are organizations out there that say that they're making an impact when in reality they're just making, you know, loans which is not a not a bad thing. But they're issuing loans, or they're taking equity in the companies, that's fine, but it's not what we're doing. CHAD: What are your plans for, like, upcoming? Are you going to be continuing with micro-grants, or do you have bigger plans? MICHAEL: We have bigger plans. So I can't say too much right now because we have an announcement coming up. But I will say issues like legal services have come up. There's a constant need for attorneys for any company, whether it's contracts, or locking down real estate, or copyright and trademark, or IP. We are working with a very large prestigious law firm that's really making a generous commitment to our companies. And this would involve us even adding free legal services for an entire year to our grantees. So that's one thing that we're planning to do. And then the other is, and this another function of the fund, is we speak with organizations like Lyft who's donated like $5,000 in ride credits that we're giving to our grantees or Wix, which has given us like 75% off of websites. We work with partners who can also give us other services that we can provide to these companies to try to get them closer to where there's a gap. Giving them capital is not enough. The disparities are too significant. We also partnered with Berkshire Bank, so I can make direct referrals for loans if they need them. But the idea is to really narrow that gap and give these companies the same opportunities that their White counterparts have. CHAD: That's great. So you, as someone who's White doing this work, how do you find yourself in the community? How do you be an effective ally and advocate? MICHAEL: For me personally, my connection personally through my wife and also through my family and my boss. Colette is a pioneer. She's a Black woman in Boston who moved here not knowing anybody. And 30 years later, she's on The Power of 50 and 100 influential lists, but she did that through hard work. And she's worked much harder, I think, than she would have had to if she weren't a woman from Antigua who came here on her own. But ultimately, as an ally, it's my role; it's our role to step in between situations where there's inequity. So if there is a company, one of our companies, for instance, who's having a problem locking down real estate, (I think I use this in the article.), and they're saying, "Well, the real estate agent is telling us they can eliminate our lease at any time they prefer which I know is basically legal." I'll call them up and say, "Look, I'm with the fund. We're backing this company; we support them. What's the situation?" And unfortunately, most of the time, the outcome actually changes. So it's a matter of almost you got to be proactive, and you got to be intentional. You have to use your privilege in the best way that you can. So I think that's how you do it. And then, when it's time to shed a light on these companies, you take a step back, so it's not my role to go out there and promote myself. If anyone asks me, I'm always promoting the companies. So the best thing we can do is be advocates. You can be out front, but at the end of the day, it's about uplifting them, these companies in this case. CHAD: Yeah, that's great. Speaking of that, I was going to ask you, what are some of the companies that you have given the micro-grants to, and do you know how they use them? MICHAEL: Yeah, so we gave our grants to six companies. One is called MustWatch, and MustWatch is founded by Che, and Che, his family, is from Haiti. They are an app. You can actually find them on the App Store. But what they do is they allow you to log in, select which movies and television shows that you watch, and share them with your friends. And it sounds like a very simple concept, but there is actually nothing on the market that allows you to do this. And the idea is that you're collecting data while you're doing this as MustWatch. So at the end of the day, if you have a sample of like 20,000 users on the platform, you gain a lot of valuable insight and data. And that data can be useful for Nielsen or the television networks or movie production studios. I encourage people to sign up for MustWatch because if you spend as much time as I do looking for good movies, you're probably miserable. CHAD: [laughs] MICHAEL: [laughs] I spend so much time doing that. We also have a few online retailers. So we have B. Royal Boutique and So Zen Spa, both of them have doubled their revenue during COVID. They originally had stores. They pivoted during COVID, went online, and really were excellent when it comes to branding and marketing on social media and on other digital platforms. So they've been very successful. We have a company called Black Owned Bos., which is pretty well known here in Boston. They basically focus on organizing and running pop-up shops. And Jae'da, who's the head of the company, is just, I mean, she's a business mastermind. She's brilliant, always finding new ways to innovate. And then we have Our Village, which is focused on community development and housing. And finally, sySTEMic flow, which is a company that helps school districts, educators support Black women in STEM and STEAM fields. So we looked for companies that could pivot, basically. CHAD: And you mean in the face of the pandemic. MICHAEL: In the face of the pandemic, we looked for companies that had success and had a plan and also knew their audience. The main things that we look for…and I should say this too; our application process takes an average of seven minutes. And the way that I did that was I evaluated over 20 accelerator applications. I did a comparative analysis and identified the questions that were either irrelevant or unhelpful for us. And that gave us a very short application for our companies but one that's really efficient. And basically, what we're looking for is companies that have a good business model, have a very specific customer base and target market, and have a strong founder, and also has been undersupported. There are companies that we've identified for our next cohort that by this point in their development would have been venture funded in my experience, at least, had they not been people of color. Mid-Roll Ad I wanted to tell you all about something I've been working on quietly for the past year or so, and that's AgencyU. AgencyU is a membership-based program where I work one-on-one with a small group of agency founders and leaders toward their business goals. We do one-on-one coaching sessions and also monthly group meetings. We start with goal setting, advice, and problem-solving based on my experiences over the last 18 years of running thoughtbot. As we progress as a group, we all get to know each other more. And many of the AgencyU members are now working on client projects together and even referring work to each other. Whether you're struggling to grow an agency, taking it to the next level and having growing pains, or a solo founder who just needs someone to talk to, in my 18 years of leading and growing thoughtbot, I've seen and learned from a lot of different situations, and I'd be happy to work with you. Learn more and sign up today at thoughtbot.com/agencyu. That's A-G-E-N-C-Y, the letter U. CHAD: What has been the most surprising use of one of the grants? MICHAEL: So B. Royal used the grant money to lock down a store in Assembly Square in Somerville. We kind of anticipated they might do that. So Zen Spa they improved their website. MustWatch actually really surprised us. So they went out and got a valuation of their company and then basically worked with a crowdfunding platform called Netcapital to raise more capital. They had a very specific plan, and they had disclosed that plan to us. I just didn't anticipate they would act so quickly on it. And based on the fact that we had given them a grant and all this mentoring and support, their valuation actually went up. CHAD: That's a really smart use of the funds to propel that into a larger fundraise. That's really smart. MICHAEL: I agree. CHAD: So you do this in addition to a day job. [laughs] MICHAEL: I mean, they're both day jobs; it's just, yeah. CHAD: So you mentioned Colette Phillips, the person, [laughs] how about Colette Phillips Communications? So The All Inclusive Campaign it really is historic. The genesis of the campaign is that back in 2020, Colette and I applied for an RFP from the City of Boston; it was for a tourism recovery campaign. All of the major cities in the country got this grant money through regional tourism agencies, you know, like they're a special interest niche. And they went to the Feds, and they're like, "Look, we're suffering, travel is suffering, we need a grant," so all these grants went out. The City of Boston actually said, "Look, we want to focus on diverse tourism." So that was perfect for us. We applied, we got the grant. And we brought on Proverb, which is an incredible digital marketing agency and creative design agency, and the Greater Boston Convention & Visitors Bureau. It was the largest contract ever to go to a minority-owned company by the City of Boston, ever, and it was about 1.5 million. CHAD: Which in and of itself for what the City of Boston probably spends on things [laughs] is a little ridiculous that that's the biggest one, but … get beyond that, I guess. MICHAEL: It's insane. It's very upsetting. And it was a long time overdue. In this case, that contract or that RFP was really only supposed to last like one quarter. So all these regional tourism agencies they get their influx of money, a million dollars or a few 100,000. And then from there, they do the campaign, they move on. We are now three mayor's into this. We are four million dollars into this. We submitted the campaign to the city 60 days after they contracted with us; 84% of the contractors on the project are minority-owned companies. And in that 60 days before delivering the campaign, we actually never met in person. So we did this whole campaign virtually from the start. We came in under budget. We came in ahead of time. This is what happens sometimes when you let minority-owned companies take the lead. CHAD: Yeah, that's great. How do you do a campaign like this? I mean, this is why they came to you, the experts, but I think it's important that this message seem authentic and not pandering. MICHAEL: Yeah, Colette is a visionary. She's been talking about diversity and inclusion for like 20 years. There's an article that came out, I think, in 1992 where she was talking about the importance of diversity in the business community. And now it's like microfilm; you can't even find it digitally online. CHAD: [laughs] MICHAEL: She's years ahead of her time. And she's constantly innovating, and All Inclusive was her idea, and she branded it. I think it was a long time coming, basically. This is a culmination of a message and campaign that she's been running her whole life. CHAD: Yeah, I think that that's very powerful. And I think it comes across in the campaign. It seems authentic. I think it would be easy for it to not seem that way. And so yeah, it comes from that place of this was already a thing. It was already brewing. It wasn't just -- MICHAEL: Do you want to hear a story? CHAD: Yeah, I'd love it. MICHAEL: So, most of the media coverage for this campaign was exceptionally positive. There are a few reasons for that. We included all small, locally-owned businesses in the campaign. So you won't find celebrities, no athletes, or anything like that; we may do that later. We also invested...we took 200,000 of the contract, which this was not even supposed to be in there. We actually did ad buys with 19 different local newspapers. In some cases, these newspapers would have actually closed down if we had not done that, and that was just a byproduct of something we felt was important. But amidst all of that, she got invited to do an interview on Bloomberg on the local Bloomberg station. She's on the phone, and some guy who was on the other line, and I won't go into it too much, said, "You know, as a White man, I'm really offended. I don't feel represented in this campaign." [laughs] And she's like, "I've had enough of this," hangs up the phone. [laughs] And this is another part of allyship I think is...naturally, you know, I said, "Look, I'm taking care of this." I wrote a letter to Bloomberg. I said, "This is unacceptable. You need to take him to task." I don't know if he still works there anymore. But that's kind of the role. You have a Black woman who's a pioneer. She just released a campaign. The first thing you should be saying to her is "Congratulations," instead of saying that, all you can tell her is about how being a White man is like, I don't know, a disadvantage? Which is crazy. There are tons of White people in the campaign. I'm White; I'm in the campaign. CHAD: It's so foolish. I don't even want to have to explain it, but the campaign is literally called All Inclusive. MICHAEL: [laughs] Exactly, exactly. It covers everybody, I mean, literally. And it's like, I don't know what you want from us. CHAD: Yeah. And it's not even...like you go to the site it talks about here's what you can do with families. Here's what you can do with kids, kid-friendly activities. MICHAEL: This campaign was also research-based. So we spent 100,000 on research with this incredible company called Heart + Mind. They did a lot of research, and they did a lot of surveying. And the words that came back when describing Boston were unwelcoming, masculine; I think Tom Brady, Ben Affleck, crime, you know, just this kind of machismo unwelcoming environment. And it kind of confirmed some of the assumptions we had, but it was really surprising to see it in the data. So we said, "All right, this is what we're working with. We have to come up with a narrative that counters that because Boston is a majority-minority city, 23 neighborhoods, 60% of the population speaks two languages or more. That ethos is really not accurate. So hopefully, we're doing a good job. CHAD: So if folks want to help, we already said GK Fund is a non-profit. It's coming up to tax season [laughs], so at the very least, even if you don't...hopefully, you care about the cause, but if you just want that tax write-off, I suppose that's another reason to donate. MICHAEL: Absolutely. CHAD: So where can folks do that if they want to learn more and donate? MICHAEL: Visit www.thegkfund.org. CHAD: And are you looking for help in other ways beyond monetary? How can people get involved? MICHAEL: Absolutely. So we're looking for mentors so individuals who feel like they have experience or skills to lend to these companies, and we'll try to deploy these individuals in the best way possible. Obviously, we're looking for partnerships. So if you have a company that you feel has something to contribute or is willing to make a contribution, not monetarily but either with your products or with a discount, we also want to give that benefit to the companies as well. And there are a number of different ways. CHAD: That's great. And if folks want to follow along with you or get in touch directly with you, how can they do that? MICHAEL: You can feel free to follow me on Twitter. It's just @MichaelBenezra, all one word on Twitter. I got a lot of positive messages after the Boston Business Journal article came out and in LinkedIn as well. CHAD: Great. And you can subscribe to the show and find notes and a full transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. You can find me on Twitter @cpytel. This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Michael, thanks so much for joining me. I really appreciate it. MICHAEL: Yeah, thank you for having me. CHAD: And thank you for listening. See you next time. ANNOUNCER: This podcast was brought to you by thoughtbot. thoughtbot is your expert design and development partner. Let's make your product and team a success. Special Guest: Michael Benezra.

In a country that has recently seen a lot of political conflicts, many people wrongly believe their right to vote doesn't matter. While political frustration is understandable, the reality is that no change could ever happen without voters. In today's episode, host Michael Desrosiers and guest Sam Jean discuss the history of voting and why we need to protect voting rights for all Americans. Even though the right to vote is protected under the 15th amendment of the constitution, there have been many cases throughout history where political parties have aimed to suppress marginalized groups from voting. The Voting Rights Act of 1965 was signed into law with the intention to overcome legal barriers that prevented African Americans from exercising their right to vote. While this piece of legislation was a notable achievement for civil rights, the current Republican Party has been working to dismantle it under the false pretense of voter fraud. In reality, the only reason to support voter suppression is to limit the majority of voters who were implementing positive change so it is important now more than ever that we continue to exercise our right to vote. Tune into this week's episode of Cuckoo 4 Politics to learn more about the history of voting in America, current threats to voting rights, and the importance of preserving The Voting Rights Act of 1965 to empower all people and protect the democracy of our country. Quotes • “Today's political Republican Party that helped draft the Voting Rights bill are surprisingly executing a game plan to curb voter participation.” (03:45-03:54 | Michael) • “There was a time in America, not too long ago, where everyone technically had the right to vote, but there were states where Black people could not vote.” (07:17-07:32 | Sam Jean) • “The Voting Rights Act was one of the crowning achievements of civil rights legislation. Its purpose was to ensure that there was no discrimination against people coming to vote.” (09:30-09:42 | Sam Jean) • “It should be easier for a voter to vote.” (19:03-19:06 | Michael) • “The way most Republicans view elections today is if they lose, they lost because something fishy happened. They didn't lose because people somehow really disagree with their position. And if you do disagree with their position, you don't have the right to be in power.” (21:09-21:26 | Sam Jean) • “The only reason to suppress voter participation is to limit the majority of voters to affect change.” (37:08-37:15 | Michael) • “If we, as a people, allow politicians to pass voter suppression laws that only allow certain people to vote, then we, as a nation, will have lost all credibility to be the shining city on a hill and a symbol of democracy.” (42:29-42:54 | Michael) Links cuckoo4politics.com https://www.instagram.com/cuckoo_4_politics/ https://www.facebook.com/Cuckoo-4-Politics-104093938102793 Podcast production and show notes provided by HiveCast.fm --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app

Investing $50,000 in real estate can go a long way toward creating a diversified rental property portfolio that generates strong cash flow, provided that you do it right. Today we are asking each other the question how we would invest this amount of cash. In this episode, Tom, Emil and Michael share how they would invest $50,000 in real estate if they were just starting out, and if they know what they know now. --- Transcript Before we jump into the episode, here's a quick disclaimer about our content. The Remote Real Estate Investor podcast is for informational purposes only, and is not intended as investment advice. The views, opinions and strategies of both the hosts and the guests are their own and should not be considered as guidance from Roofstock. Make sure to always run your own numbers, make your own independent decisions and seek investment advice from licensed professionals.   Emil: Hey, everyone, welcome back for another episode of the Remote Real Estate Investor. My name is Emil Shour and today I'm joined by…   Tom: Tom Schneider   Michael: and Michael Albaum.   Emil: And on today's episode, we're going to be talking about how each of us would invest $50,000 in real estate, and we're gonna frame it as what we would do with that 50k when we were first starting out, versus how we would approach it now, so let's hop into this episode.   Well, I can't ask what's on your guys's mind? Because we just went through that so, huh… Hmm. You know, I used to have this boss that every every meeting every week, he would come in and just ask some random question to avoid the like, so how's everyone doing? That was like, it's a good way to kind of start a meeting, get like really random answers from people.   Tom: You got an example of one?   Emil: He would honestly as a really weird, he's like a weird dude. But like funny, weird. Yeah, probably not suitable for this show. The ones I remember.   Michael: There was a my, my wife loves David Sedaris. And he does a masterclass and he talks about comedy. And one of the questions he loves asking people was, so when was the last time you touched a monkey? He asked him on this and they were like, oh my gosh, like, can you smell it on me, I was working with him earlier at the zoo today? And he was like, no way and it led to him like being able to go play with the monkeys at the zoo. Like and that's why you should always ask random questions.   Emil: He had asked like 400 people, and they all I never spoke to him again, but that one person…   Michael: The one was a big one.   Emil: Then he finally got to meet a monkey at the zoo.   Michael: Yeah…   Tom: Bad news man, getting a baby monkey and then growing up a lot of sad stories about …like ripping arms off. Anyways, sorry…   Michael: That's a… go hard left fast…   Tom: Yeah.   Emil: All right with that we're gonna hop in and talk about real estate. So the topic today is how do you invest 50k? I think this will be interesting. If Michael ever gets it together here.   Michael: Oh man…   Emil: How would you invest 50k If you know what you know, now, but you're just starting out. So take yourself back to you have your current mind, you're going back to when you first started. So how would you invest 50k? And then we'll talk about you're at where you're at currently, you're 50 grand, you want to invest in real estate? What do you guys? What are we all doing? So who wants to kick off? Going back to the past with 50k?   Tom: So, Tom's gonna go first. I would… So me with real estate investing, I really enjoy real estate investing, but I also really enjoy the kind of passive nature of it, more probably more than Michael and Emil, I think they're like, way more active. So I think this is going to be a good diverse range of responses to this question. So what I would probably do so I'd say there's there's two options, right For me, as I also really like single family off of multifamily, just a little bit less to do plus less turns plus XYZ. What I, I would see this as two options, I can either go to, to pick buy two properties in more kind of class C markets, not not as in like, negative, but like smaller markets, right? Talking about like, maybe Birmingham or buy or like Memphis?     Emil: We'll call it Tier 3, it's classy…   Tom: Sure, sure. Sure. Sure. So the my options would be to that or to buy one property in like a Class B area, you know, maybe a, you know, Atlanta, Raleigh, you know, Dallas, one of those guys and where I am right now, if I had 50k, I'm still trying to deploy as much capital out there. I would get debt for sure. I would, I would max out my debt on it. You know, I … we know well, being conscious of not getting over my tips, making sure that my income could support my debt coverage. But I would probably, I'd probably got two properties in one of those smaller markets. But you know, I might have a old fishing pole in the water on some of those larger markets. If something were to come up, I'd cast a wider net, you know, it's a busier acquisition time. So that's why we deployed by SFR, I would look at those smaller markets max, loan to value most of it… That is what I would do, went a little bit long didn't it… Ehmm, yeah. Done…   Michael: Love it. Would you buy… Would you buy both in the same market? Do you think it would use spread them out? Peanut butter spread, as they say…   Tom: I would probably buy them in the same market. Again, like so important to that to develop a thesis when investing in me is a little bit less overhead. So just using a single property manager, you know, doing that work and finding the right property manager, maybe having them help me out on the acquisition side, as far as evaluating neighborhoods and whatnot. So yes, it's a market. Good question, Michael.   Michael: Love it, love it, love it.   Emil: So, Michael, what would you do?   Michael: I think I'm taking that 50,000 and like Tom gonna go get some debt. But I am probably going to go buy a multifamily building, something a little bit bigger that I could, you know, really, really scale with. And it's probably going to be a little more turnkey, because having done the whole multifamily value, add thing, it can often be a lot more expensive than first anticipated. So something that's, you know, relatively easy, stable. That's why you may go to but in close second, what I'm also going to be considering is going and using a 15%, down DSCR loan and going to go purchase a short term rental, which would probably be a single family out in one of those vacation markets that are out there. But I think it can be a really, really, really great use of cash to generate quick income to then go to buy additional properties.     Emil: Michael, for anyone who doesn't know, what is a stable multifamily property, what does that look like?   Michael: Yeah, it's something that has, it's really good question. First off, it's something that has probably already been rehabbed, either extensively or lightly, doesn't have a whole lot of deferred maintenance, rent is probably going to be pretty close to at market rent. So I'm not going to feel the need to, to get new tenants in place when their leases are expiring, because they're already up at market rent. Just something that has been taken care of, or well maintained. Doesn't need a whole lot of CapEx.   Tom: Short term rentals are interesting. How do you find your overhead as an owner relative to your multifamily single family versus long term versus short term rental? Do you find it pretty similar? I would imagine that there's obviously range like there's variants with each of them, but just general ality generally speaking…   Michael: Yeah, it's a big range and it so depends on like my older vintage multifamily, it's gonna be a little bit even less than some of the expense ratio on that just because that has a lot more maintenance, regular, recurring maintenance type issues. On newer single families, comparing across the board to long term versus short term, short term is definitely more expensive from an expense ratio standpoint. But the income generated is still stronger. And so from a cash on cash return, it's it's still performing quite quite well.   Tom: I bought this as a metric, number of times you as an owner, you have to like make a decision or get involved.   Michael: Oh, see, short term versus long term?   Tom: Yeah, yeah, I would think I mean, I would assume short term rental, like there's a little bit more overhead as an owner. Is that wrong?   Michael: Yeah, I don't think that that's, I would say that there is more on the front end. So like we were involved in the decorations and decision making process around what amenities to include, but from a day to day…   Tom: … FF&E and OS&E those are some acronyms, Michael…     Michael: What's a OS&E?   Tom: Oh, OS&E is operating supplies in equipment, and FF&E is furniture, fixtures and equipment.   Michael: Ahhh!   Tom: No big deal, just drop an acronym…   Emil: A unit count into, what's going on here?   Michael: Yeh, sounds like an accounting term.   Tom: I know about luxury man.   Michael: You're just steeped in luxury. But no, I would say other than that. It's pretty much about as hands off as as long term if not more. So. I've really I've made very few decisions, I've been involved in very few of the conversations, we're looking at converting the garage into additional space so that of course, there's a lot more involvement in but that would be the same as if I was doing some kind of rehab work on a long term rental.   Tom: I heard a great story a description of short term rentals as comparing them to fire trucks and that they're constantly getting turned and washed like a fire truck has been around but oh, it gets it gets a fresh wash every time it goes out. So like while you might think it's a you know, getting beat up a lot it perhaps it is but it's it's getting a lot of Washington. It's like a fire truck. I don't know. I like that.   Michael: Yeah, I think I mean, I think so and it's getting eyes in it every turn. So the festering kind of long term deferred maintenance stuff tends to not be again, for my experience as big of an issue because there's people constantly putting eyes on stuff. And if there's an issue you'll hear about it immediately. Like these tenants are going to tell you because they're paying good money to be in these places. Hey, this is an issue you need to fix it.   Emil: Are you is your short term rental being professionally managed, do you have a property manager?   Michael: Yes, yeah, I'm a full service property manager, I definitely pay for it. But I'm not. I'm not at the point where I can set, you know, neither myself or my wife or I are at the point where we have enough time to be able to learn how to do that remotely for this particular property. And you know, if anyone listening is interested in learning more about short term rentals, we did a podcast episode with Avery Carl, which was a phenomenal episode, in my opinion, where she talks all about the short term rental market, and short term rentals in general and things you need to be aware of, if you're going to get involved in this space.   Tom: Did you pencil… Emil needs to give his answer, but just really last question I have on that… Did you pencil it as a longer term rental as well, just to like, see what…   Michael: I did. And it doesn't work. And so I had to always take in the opinion that it has to work as both because if something changes, I don't want to be stuck holding the bag. And after extra chatting with Avery about the short term rental market, this is out in the Smokies. She was like yeah, but the thing of it is, is the regulations aren't going to change out there. Like it is such a through and through short term vacation rental market, that she is not concerned with it being the next Santa Monica or Santa Monica, city regulators come in and say I can't do Airbnb, because it's always been short term rentals. So that's given me a lot more comfort to say, okay, I'm okay, kind of taking that leap of having it only makes sense as a vacation rental?   Emil: Well, I had one final question. I asked Michael about the third party property manager because I, what I really want to know is how does your time commitment with a third, like you have property management and on a long term and a short term? How does your monthly time commitment in terms of speaking with your property manager being involved? Like how, how much more time is it with the short term compared to long term, if any?   Michael: You know, I have probably spent less time with the short term manager than I have with long term management. I was so impressed by this company, they've been awesome and they're just like really good at what they do. And I think that universally speaking, that's kind of what I would expect in the long term world as well, I have my that one of the best property managers I have is up in Alaska, I hear from him, like once a quarter, unless we're just calling to check, you know, checkup and chew the fact sort of thing. So if a property manager is good at their job, you really shouldn't hear from them, in order for you to make decisions, they could update you and tell you what's going on and this and that. But from a decision making standpoint, if I have to hear from you and talk to you regularly, like it's probably not going very well. Right Emil how would you spend in those 50 G's?       Emil: For me, if I'm just starting out, and I want to invest in real estate, I'm, I like single family as a first starting point. And we can debate this later on a showdown. I think single family is a good way to get started, I think having one tenant, one unit to worry about just a lot less hectic. And so I'd start with a single family, I would want to do a tier two city, somewhere where the climate isn't so severe, right? Like I have properties in Indianapolis and every winter, I'm like, man, our pipes gonna freeze and explode. You know, you hear all those stories. Usually, if you have a tenant who's there, like they're running the water, and that doesn't happen. But you know, if you have a turn in the winner, always think that could happen. So I choose something with a little bit less harsh climate, just because it's going to keep everything solid for a little bit longer. And I'd probably just use it on one property to get something a little bit better, ewe just talked about on a different episode, six things we wouldn't do, again, six mistakes and for me it was buying a really cheap property on the… in the beginning, I get something a little bit nicer, less headache, you know, newer build, that's just going to be an easy learning process for me, because the first one isn't going to be the make or break. It's really you're just like learning how to deal with real estate how to deal with the property manager all this stuff. So having it be something that's going to be better long term is what I would prioritize.   Michael: Are you okay, accepting less cash flow?   Emil: I wasn't in the beginning and on the other end of it now, yes, you should like it's not going to be a huge difference. You think it will be and you know, excel math will tell you different but it's a different story. I think when you get into it.   Michael: How much cash flow, how small of a cash flow are you willing to accept and still consider it cashflow positive?   Emil: For me like even like if you're being conservative, right, like not going oh, best case scenario, right? You're ending up with like at least $50 of cash flow a month right? I think that's a good place to be at least obviously, I…   Tom: Got to beat inflation, got to beat inflation.   Michael: Beat it back with a stick…   Emil: We don't, you know, we're just talking about cash flow and again, these this isn't going to be a make or break for you. You're trying to learn and you're trying to grow. You also have equity building right in a better property that's going to be more dollar like appreciation. 10% appreciation on something that's $250,000 Verse $100,000, you're gonna make more than that equity anyway, right? It's appreciating, it's a higher appreciation.   Michael: So you're sticking to one, one property… One more expensive property?   Emil: Yes, yeah.   Michael: Alright.   Emil: Not even just expensive to be expensive just better quote like a turnkey, nicely done property that I'm not going to have a ton of headache right out the gate.   Michael: Well, there you have it, ladies and gentlemen.   Tom: It's been a few seconds on zero scape, just installed some fake turf on my backyard. It's killer man.   Michael: Is it good?   Tom: Yeah, yeah. And then like if leaves come on it you get the power washer. And just like my my own little zen…   Michael: What about dog puppies?   Tom: That's a thing. But you know, that's where the power washer. And also that's where gates like preventing the dog to go out there. Come in…   Emil: Anyway, anyways, you could also have a dog like mine who we have we have turf in the backyard too. It's like turf in concrete. And he is afraid of it doesn't like walking on turf. So he makes us take him out in the front yard where there's real grass to go. So that's fun.   Tom: He is natural… Michael: Some… double apply.   Emil: He's a purist. He's got a good taste.   Tom: Good for him.   Michael: So Tom, are you saving some of that 50,000, so you can install zero scaping in this investment property?   Tom: Yeah, probably. I mean, the right warranties are in place with the Zero Escape. You're like basically making money when you install it, so…   Michael: Are you, are you working on zero escape installation side hustle?   Tom: I am yeah, I got a, I got a, I got some, I got some hints.   Michael: You need a guy, I got a guy…   Emil: Probably not that awesome on a rental property. Like the ROI on that is, is not great.   Tom: Nooo, problem.   Michael: Depends on who is paying this utilities though…   Emil: Yeah…   Michael: If you include these utilities in your bill…   Emil: It's your tenant.   Tom: Oh…There could be markets Emil, before you jump the gun. There could be markets with it makes a ton of sense, Las Vegas, Arizona…   Emil: I prefer talking generalities, we're not getting into nuance on this on this podcast, sorry…   Michael: I thought you only spoken absolutes.   Emil: That's it, that's it…   Michael: Now you're speaking in generalities. Man pick one Emil.   Tom: Yeah.   Emil: Ehmm, absolute is what I met. It's not... Moving on. Alright, what do we do with $50,000 now? If $50,000 is now, in your investing career, what are you guys doing? You're not a beginner, you're at your stage now, so what's next?   Tom: I am making the transition to getting some multifamily, you know, I don't know, I don't actually know short term, Michael's got me hyped up on some learn a lot more about short term, I don't know. I'm all over the place right now. This is what I'm gonna do, this is what I am gonna do actually, I'm going to set up a coaching session with Michael and we're going to go through some options and get to the root of it. I swear to God, that's like the real answer, right.   Emil: That is actually a very solid strategy. Alright, Michael 50,000, I feel like I know where you're, where you're putting money, but if 50,000, where's it going?   Michael: Yeah. Now in today's world, I'm probably splitting that. Truth be told I'm probably do you like for sure a short term rental 50% down DSCR loan, and then I'll probably wait half or two thirds and then I'm taking the other half and I'll probably park it in a syndication to be perfectly honest and just kind of enjoy the passivity that syndications provide. It's, we've been doing a lot of podcasts recently and had a lot of passive investment experts on talking about benefits, pros cons of passive investing, and I'm like, huh at this stage of my career, it's definitely sounds interesting. My back's already, you know, a little tired from from caring so much. So I'm ready to slow down a little bit and just kind of enjoy the fruits of the labor.   Emil: Nice, yeah. I'm sagging into what I'd do, I'm right there with you. So I like that I have nowhere near the amount of units like you, right that I own directly, I have six units. I think that's perfect for me and where I'm at right now, I would put $50,000 honestly, either in a REIT or yeah, in a in a private deal or something like that. Something where I'm going to be completely passive. Just given we've got two little kids, we got the six units again, that we own directly and that takes off takes up enough time and you know, business I started a year ago that's taking up a lot of time as well and attention. So I'd be looking for something passive to pocket.   Michael: I love the fact that Emil, you mentioned that you have like little kids and so you're kind of at this stage in your life where the active hands on direct investment isn't a great fit for you. But that could easily change and so you go park your money and one of these indications. Hopefully it doubles or better in a couple years' time and then you get it back and you get to decide okay, well what I want to do next I want to continue the passive route now maybe the kids a little bit older, you have more time on your hands to do something else. So I love it. I think it's, it's such a good point that there's like seasonality to this whole investing thing.   Emil: Yeah, it's not like, I'm done direct investing. It's, I'm done direct investing right now. Like, we have what we have, we're good, we're not getting rid of those and it's time for a different strategy. But you know, life changes, maybe you have a windfall, whatever, and you're like, now I'm bored. And I want to go do something more challenging and I'm gonna go do some, some value add stuff myself, maybe even like, in a market closer to me, or what did you know there are just so many different ways you can take this and it's not like those strategies you start with is going to be the strategy you end with.   Michael: Mike drop Emil out.   Emil: Don't listen to me, I don't know what I'm talking about.   Michael: That's great, man. I love it, I love it… Should we get out of here?   Emil: Yeah, let's do it.   So thanks, everybody, appreciate you tuning in for another episode, hope you got some value out of this one. And as always, please leave us a review or subscribe if you're watching on YouTube. We love seeing that number go up, it boosts your ego and it keeps us coming back every week. So we'll catch you all in the next one. Happy investing.   Michael: Happy investing.  

What do we actually understand about our country's current political status? After a tiresome four years of the Trump administration, America had high hopes for the next president. While the two administrations are vastly different, why are so many Americans still disappointed with the current state of affairs? In today's episode, host Michael Desrosiers sits down with long-time friend and political expert Sam Jean to discuss the state of our union. According to Sam, most Americans are taught to believe that the President of the United States has the power to change things at the snap of a finger. While the President is the most influential political figure in the US, the reality is that things take a lot of time to change. After emerging from four years of continuous scandal, many Americans looked forward to a sense of normalcy in the White House. And while the Biden Administration has already accomplished countless feats, including COVID relief, passing the infrastructure bill, and lowering unemployment rates, people tend to focus on the things that haven't been finished. As the first year of Biden's presidency comes to a close, it is important to remember that many of his actions won't come to fruition until after his term has ended. Tune into this week's episode of Cuckoo for Politics to learn more about the powers of the President, what the Biden administration has already accomplished, and why it takes so long to get things done politically. Quotes • “I think we all grow up with the notion that whoever's in the White House has superhuman capabilities to quickly eradicate all our ills and wills.” (07:08-07:17 | Michael) • “Biden's approval rating is low, and it keeps going down because there seems to be this sense of fatigue, and part of it is unrealistic.” (09:53-10:01 | Sam Jean) • “I've noticed the same issues that are happening here at home, are also happening elsewhere.” (11:02-11:06 | Michael) • “There are a lot of things that I am disappointed about, but I'm a practical person and I get that the President of the United States doesn't control everything.” (12:38-12:49 | Sam Jean) • “Whenever there's a transition from one president to the next, the incoming president not only inherits the task made by the former, but also inherits the history of past administration successes and its failures while occupying the White House.” (19:06-19:21 Michael) • “Although there are vaccines and remedies on the horizon, COVID still remains the number one hindrance to America's progress.” (20:00-20:06 | Michael) Links cuckoo4politics.com https://www.instagram.com/cuckoo_4_politics/ https://www.facebook.com/Cuckoo-4-Politics-104093938102793 Podcast production and show notes provided by HiveCast.fm --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app

Jennifer - Does this study say how many men have chosen to be stay at home dads? Michael - There seems to be a mismatch between the ability to advance. A lot of people dropping out of the workforce don't have the family connections to advance. Derrick - I have been out of college for 5 years. I think a lot of people use video games as a coping mechanism for mental health. Kathy - What I'm not hearing is that a lot of these families are single parent where the dad is out of the picture and not teaching them proper work ethic. Mark - I am single and this is why I would say yes to the free money Mike - I believe this is all political with all the immigrants coming in. They will take the jobs. We are losing a generation to drugs and alcohol. Barbara - My experience as a baby boomer is vastly different than my kids. Paul - I m a stay at home dad. We are in very difficult times. Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Mike - Kids aren't getting a chance to work. We have taken away the core of teaching kids how to work. We have taken away the paper routes, the lawn mowing jobs, etc. Kids don't want to work. Adults want the $18/hour jobs flipping burgers.

02:13 - Michael’s Superpower: Being Able to Creatively Digest and Reconstruct Categories * Integral Theory (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Integral_theory_(Ken_Wilber)) * Creative Deconstruction – Michael Schwartz (https://ideas.repec.org/f/psc306.html) * Creating Truly Novel Categories – Recognizing Novelty as Novelty 09:39 - Recognizing Economic Value of Talents & Abilities * Invisible Labor * Ecosystem Services * Biodiversity; The Diversity Bonus by Scott Page (https://www.amazon.com/Diversity-Bonus-Knowledge-Compelling-Interests/dp/0691176884) 18:49 - The Edge of Chaos; Chaos Theory (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_theory) * “Life exists at the edge of chaos.” 23:23 - Reproducibility Crisis and Context-Dependent Insight 28:49 - What constitutes a scientific experiment? * Missed Externalities * Scholarly articles for Michelle Girvan "reservoir computing" (https://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=Michelle+Girvan+reservoir+computing&hl=en&as_sdt=0&as_vis=1&oi=scholart) * Non-conformity 38:03 - The Return of Civil Society and Community Relationships; Scale Theory * Legitimation Crisis by Juergen Habermas (https://www.amazon.com/Legitimation-Crisis-Juergen-Habermas/dp/0807015210) * Scale: The Universal Laws of Life and Death in Organisms, Cities and Companies by Geoffrey West (https://www.amazon.com/Scale-Universal-Organisms-Cities-Companies-ebook/dp/B010P7Z8J0) 49:28 - Fractal Geometry More amazing resources from Michael to check out: Michael Garfield: Improvising Out of Algorithmic Isolation (https://blog.usejournal.com/improvising-out-of-algorithmic-isolation-7ef1a5b94697?gi=e731ad1488b2) Michael Garfield: We Will Fight Diseases of Our Networks By Realizing We Are Networks (https://michaelgarfield.medium.com/we-will-fight-diseases-of-our-networks-by-realizing-we-are-networks-7fa1e1c24444) Reflections: Jacob: Some of the best ideas, tv shows, music, etc. are the kinds of things that there’s not going to be an established container. Rein: “Act always so as to increase the number of choices.” ~ Heinz von Foerster Jessica: Externality. Recognize that there’s going to be surprises and find them. Michael: Adaptability is efficiency aggregated over a longer timescale. This episode was brought to you by @therubyrep (https://twitter.com/therubyrep) of DevReps, LLC (http://www.devreps.com/). To pledge your support and to join our awesome Slack community, visit patreon.com/greaterthancode (https://www.patreon.com/greaterthancode) To make a one-time donation so that we can continue to bring you more content and transcripts like this, please do so at paypal.me/devreps (https://www.paypal.me/devreps). You will also get an invitation to our Slack community this way as well. Transcript: JACOB: Hello and welcome to Episode 234 of Greater Than Code. My name is Jacob Stoebel and I’m joined with my co-panelist, Rein Henrichs. REIN: Thanks, Jacob and I’m here with my friend and co-panelist, Jessica Kerr. JESSICA: Thanks, Rein and today, I’m excited to introduce our guest, Michael Garfield. He’s an artist and philosopher and he helps people navigate our age of accelerating weirdness and cultivate the curiosity and play we need to thrive. He hosts and produces two podcasts, The Future Fossils Podcast & The Santa Fe Institute's Complexity Podcast. Yay, complexity! Michael acts as interlocutor for a worldwide community of artists, scientists, and philosophers—a practice that feeds his synthetic and transdisciplinary “mind-jazz” performances in the form of essay, avant-guitar music, and painting! You can find him on Bandcamp, it’s pretty cool. Refusing to be enslaved by a single perspective, creative medium, or intellectual community, Michael walks through the walls between academia and festival culture, theory and practice. Michael, welcome to Greater Than Code! MICHAEL: Thanks! I’m glad to be here and I hope that I provide a refreshingly different guest experience for listeners being not a coder in any kind of traditional sense. JESSICA: Yet you’re definitely involved in technology. MICHAEL: Yeah, and I think the epistemic framing of programming and algorithms is something that can be applied with no understanding of programming languages as they are currently widely understood. It’s just like design is coding, design of the built environment, so. JESSICA: And coding is a design. MICHAEL: Indeed. JESSICA: Okay, before we go anywhere else, I did not prepare you for this, but we have one question that we ask all of our guests. What is your superpower and how did you acquire it? MICHAEL: I would like believe that I have a superpower in being able to creatively digest and reconstruct categories so as to drive new associations between them for people and I feel like I developed that studying integral theory in grad school. I did some work under Sean Esbjörn-Hargens at John F. Kennedy University looking at the work of and work adjacent to Ken Wilber, who was trying to come up with a metatheoretical framework to integrate all different domains of human knowledge. All different types of inquiry into a single framework that doesn't attempt to reduce any one of them to any other and then in that process, I learned what one of my professors, Michael Schwartz, called creative deconstruction. So showing how art can be science and science can be art and that these aren't ontologically fixed categories that exist external to us. Looking at the relationship between science as a practice and spiritual inquiry as a practice and that kind of thing. So it's an irreverent attitude toward the categories that we've constructed that takes in a way a cynical and pragmatic approach to the way that we define things in our world. You know. REIN: Kant was wrong. [laughs] MICHAEL: It's good to get out of the rut. Obviously, you’ve got to be careful because all of these ideas have histories and so you have to decide whether it's worth trying to redefine something for people in order to open up new possibilities in the way that these ideas can be understood and manipulated. It's not, for example, an easy task to try and get people to change their idea about what religion is. [laughs] JESSICA: Yeah. More than redefined. It's almost like undefined. MICHAEL: Hm. Like Paul Tillich, for example. Theologian Paul Tillich said that religion is ultimate concern. So someone can have a religion of money, or a religion of sex, but if you get into these, if you try to interpose that in a debate on intelligent design versus evolutionary theory, you'll get attacked by both sides. JESSICA: [chuckles] That’s cosmology. MICHAEL: Yeah. So it's like – [overtalk] JESSICA: Which is hard to [inaudible] of money, or sex. MICHAEL: Yeah, but people do it anyhow. JESSICA: [laughs] Yeah. So deconstructing categories and seeing in-between things that fits through your walking through walls, what categories are you deconstructing and seeing between lately? MICHAEL: Well, I don't know, lately I've been paying more attention to the not so much tilting after the windmills of this metamorphic attitude towards categories, but looking at the way that when the opportunity comes to create a truly novel category, what are the forces in play that prevent that, that prevent recognizing novelty as novelty that I just – JESSICA: Do you have any examples? MICHAEL: Yeah, well, I just saw a really excellent talk by UC Berkeley Professor Doug Guilbeault, I think is how you say his name. I am happy to link his work to you all in the chat here so that you can share it. JESSICA: Yeah, we’ll link that in the show notes. MICHAEL: He studies category formation and he was explaining how most of the research that's been done on convergent categorization is done on established categories. But what happens when you discover something truly new? What his research shows is that basically the larger the population, the more likely it is that these categories will converge on something that's an existing category and he compared it to island versus mainland population biogeography. So there's a known dynamic in evolutionary science where genetic drift, which is just this random component of the change in allele frequencies in a population, the larger the population, the less likely it is that a genetic mutation that is otherwise neutral is going to actually percolate out into the population. On an island, you might get these otherwise neutral mutations that actually take root and saturate an entire community, but on the mainland, they get lost in the noise. You can look at this in terms of how easy it is for an innovative, artistic, or musical act to actually find any purchase. Like Spotify bought the data analysis company, The Echo Nest, back in 2015 and they ran this study on where emergent musical talent comes from. It comes from places like Australia, the UK, and Iceland, because the networks are small enough. This is a finding that's repeated endlessly through studies of how to create a viral meme that basically, or another way – JESSICA: You mean a small enough pool to take hold? MICHAEL: Yeah. That basically big science and large social networks online and these other attempts, anywhere we look at this economies of scale, growing a given system, what happens is—and we were talking about this a little before we got on the call—as a system scales, it becomes less innovative. There's less energy is allocated to – JESSICA: In America? MICHAEL: Yeah. Bureaucratic overhead, latencies in the network that prevent the large networks from adapting, with the same agility to novel challenges. There's a lot of different ways to think about this and talk about this, but it basically amounts to, if you want to, you can't do it from the conservative core of an organization. You can't do it from the board of directors. JESSICA: Oh. MICHAEL: You have to go out onto – like why did they call it fringe physics? It's like, it is because it's on the fringe and so there's a kind of – JESSICA: So this would be like if you have like one remarkably lowercase agile team inside your enterprise, one team is innovating and development practices. They're going to get mushed out. Whereas, if you have one team innovating like that in a small company, it might spread and it might become dominant. MICHAEL: Yeah. I think it's certainly the case that this speaks to something I've been wondering about it in a broader sense, which is how do we recognize the economic value of talents and abilities that are like, how do we recognize a singular individual for their incompressible knowledge and expertise when they don't go through established systems of accreditation like getting a PhD? Because the academic system is such that basically, if you have an innovative contribution, but you don't have the credentials that are required to participate in the community of peer review, then people can't even – your contribution is just invisible. The same is true for how long it took, if you look at economic models, it took so long for economic models to even begin to start addressing the invisible labor of women in at home like domestic labor, or what we're now calling ecosystem services. So there's this question of – I should add that I'm ambivalent about this question because I'm afraid that answering it in an effective way, how do we make all of these things economically visible would just accelerate the rate at which the capitalist machine is capable of co-opting and exploiting all of these. [chuckles] REIN: Yeah. You also have this Scott Seeing Like a State thing where in order to be able to even perceive that that stuff is going on, it has to become standardized and you can't dissect the bird to observe its song, right? MICHAEL: Totally. So obviously, it took almost no time at all for consumer culture to commodify the psychedelic experience and start using to co-opt this psychedelic aesthetic and start using it in advertising campaigns for Levi's Jeans and Campbell Soup and that kind of thing. So it’s this question of a moving frontier that as soon as you have the language to talk about it, it's not the ineffable anymore. REIN: Yeah. MICHAEL: There's a value to the ineffable and there's a value to – it's related to this question of the exploitation of indigenous peoples by large pharmaceutical companies like, their ethnobotanical knowledge. How do you make the potential value of biodiversity, something that can be manufactured into medicine at scale, without destroying the rainforest and the people who live in it? Everywhere I look, I see this question. So for me, lately, it's been less about how do we creatively deconstruct the categories we have so much as it is, what is the utility of not knowing how to categorize something at all and then how do we fix the skewed incentive structures in society so as to value that which we currently do not know how to value. JESSICA: Because you don’t have a category for it. MICHAEL: Right. Like right now, maybe one of the best examples, even though this is the worst example in another way, is that a large fraction of the human genome has been patented by Monsanto, even though it has no known current biomedical utility. This is what Lewis Hyde in his book, Common as Air, called “the third enclosure” of the common. So you have the enclosure of the land that everyone used to be able to hunt on and then you have the enclosure of intellectual property in terms of patents for known utilities, known applications, and then over the last few decades, you're starting to see large companies buy their way into and defend patents for the things that actually don't – it's speculative. They're just gambling on the idea that eventually we'll have some use for this and that it's worth lawyering up to defend that potential future use. But it's akin to recognizing that we need to fund translational work. We need to fund synthesis. We need to fund blue sky interdisciplinary research for which we don't have an expected return on investment here because there's – JESSICA: It's one of those things that it’s going to help; you're going to get tremendous benefits out of it, but you can't say which ones. MICHAEL: Right. It's a shift perhaps akin to the move that I'm seeing conservation biology make right now from “let's preserve this charismatic species” to “let's do everything we can to restore biodiversity” rather than that biodiversity itself is generative and should be valued in its own regard so diverse research teams, diverse workplace teams. We know that there is what University of Michigan Professor Scott Page calls the diversity bonus and you don't need to know and in fact, you cannot know what the bonus is upfront. JESSICA: Yeah. You can't draw the line of causality forward to the benefit because the point of diversity is that you get benefits you never thought of. MICHAEL: Exactly. Again, this gets into this question of as a science communications staffer in a position where I'm constantly in this weird dissonant enters zone between the elite researchers at the Santa Fe Institute where I work and the community of complex systems enthusiasts that have grown up around this organization. It's a complete mismatch in scale between this org that has basically insulated itself so as to preserve the island of innovation that is required for really groundbreaking research, but then also, they have this reputation that far outstrips their ability to actually respond to people that are one step further out on the fringe from them. So I find myself asking, historically SFI was founded by Los Alamos National Laboratory physicists mostly that were disenchanted with the idea that they were going to have to research science, that their science was limited to that which could be basically argued as a national defense initiative and they just wanted to think about the deepest mysteries of the cosmos. So what is to SFI as SFI as to Los Alamos? Even in really radical organizations, there's a point at which they've matured and there are questions that are beyond the horizon of that which a particular community is willing to indulge. I find, in general, I'm really fascinated by questions about the nonlinearity of time, or about weird ontology. I'm currently talking to about a dozen other academics and para-academics about how to try and – I'm working, or helping to organize a working group of people that can apply rigorous academic approaches to asking questions that are completely taboo inside of academia. Questions that challenge some of the most fundamental assumptions of maternity, such as there being a distinction between self and other, or the idea that there are things that are fundamentally inaccessible to quantitative research. These kinds of things like, how do we make space for that kind of inquiry when there's absolutely no way to argue it in terms of you should fund this? And that's not just for money, that's also for attention because the demands on the time and attention of academics are so intense that even if they have interest in this stuff, they don't have the freedom to pursue it in their careers. That's just one of many areas where I find that this kind of line of inquiry manifesting right now. REIN: Reminds me a lot of this model of the edge of chaos that came from Packard and Langton back in the late 70s. Came out of chaos theory, this idea that there's this liminal transitionary zone between stability and chaos and that this is the boiling zone where self-organization happens and innovation happens. But also, that this zone is itself not static; it gets pushed around by other forces. MICHAEL: Yeah, and that's where life is and that was Langton's point, that life exists at the edge of chaos that it's right there at the phase transition boundary between what is it that separates a stone from a raging bonfire, or there’s the Goldilocks Zone kind of question. Yeah, totally. REIN: And these places that were at the edge of chaos that were innovative can ossify, they can move into the zone of stability. It's not so much that they move it's that, I don't know, maybe it's both. Where the frontier is, is constantly in motion. MICHAEL: Yeah, and to that point again, I tend to think about these things in a topographical, or geographical sense, where the island is growing, we're sitting on a volcano, and there's lots you can do with that metaphor. Obviously, it doesn't make sense. You can't build your house inside the volcano, right? [laughs] But you want to be close enough to be able to watch and describe as new land erupts, but at a safe distance. Where is that sweet spot where you have rigor and you have support, but you're not trapped within a bureaucracy, or an ossified set of institutional conventions? JESSICA: Or if the island is going up, if the earth is moving the island up until the coastline keeps expanding outward, and you built your house right on the beach. As in you’ve got into React when it was the new hotness and you learned all about it and you became the expert and then you had this great house on the beach, and now you have a great house in the middle of town because the frontier, the hotness has moved on as our massive technology has increased and the island raises up. I mean, you can't both identify as being on the edge and identify with any single category of knowledge. MICHAEL: Yeah. It's tricky. I saw Nora Bateson talking about this on Twitter recently. She's someone who I love for her subversiveness. Her father, Gregory Bateson, was a major player in the articulation of cybernetics and she's awesome in that sense of, I don't know, the minister's daughter kind of a way of being extremely well-versed in complex systems thinking and yet also aware that there's a subtle reductionism that comes in that misses – JESSICA: Misses from? MICHAEL: Well, that comes at like we think about systems thinking as it's not reductionist because it's not trying to explain biology in terms of the interactions of atoms. It acknowledges that there's genuine emergence that happens at each of these levels and yet, to articulate that, one of the things that happens is everything has to be squashed into numbers and so it’s like this issue of how do you quantify something. JESSICA: It's not real, if you can't measure it in numbers. MICHAEL: Right and that belies this bias towards thinking that because you can't quantify something now means it can't be quantified. JESSICA: You can’t predict which way the flame is going to go in the fire. That doesn't mean the fire doesn't burn. [chuckles] MICHAEL: Right. So she's interesting because she talks about warm data as this terrain, or this experience where we don't know how to talk about it yet, but that's actually what makes it so juicy and meaningful and instructive and – JESSICA: As opposed to taking it out of context. Leave it in context, even though we don't know how to do some magical analysis on it there. MICHAEL: Right, and I think this starts to generate some meaningful insights into the problem of the reproducibility crisis. Just as an example, I think science is generally moving towards context dependent insight and away from – even at the Santa Fe Institute, nobody's looking for a single unifying theory of everything anymore. It's far more illuminating, useful, and rigorous to look at how different models are practical given different applications. I remember in college there's half a dozen major different ways to define a biological species and I was supposed to get up in front of a class and argue for one over the other five. I was like, “This is preposterous.” Concretely, pun kind of intended, Biosphere 2, which was this project that I know the folks here at Synergia Ranch in Santa Fe at the Institute of Ecotechnics, who were responsible for creating this unbelievable historic effort to miniaturize the entire biosphere inside of a building. They had a coral reef and a rainforest and a Savannah and a cloud desert, like the Atacama, and there was one other, I forget. But it was intended as a kind of open-ended ecological experiment that was supposed to iterate a 100 times, or 50 times over a 100 years. They didn't know what they were looking for; they just wanted to gather data and then continue these 2-year enclosures where a team of people were living inside this building and trying to reproduce the entire earth biosphere in miniature. So that first enclosure is remembered historically as a failure because they miscalculated the rate at which they would be producing carbon dioxide and they ended up having to open the building and let in fresh air and import resource. JESSICA: So they learned something? MICHAEL: Right, they learned something. But that project was funded by Ed Bass, who in 1994, I think called in hostile corporate takeover expert, Steve Bannon to force to go in there with a federal team and basically issue a restraining order on these people and forcibly evict them from the experiment that they had created. Because it was seen as an embarrassment, because they had been spun in this way in international media as being uncredentialed artists, rather than scientists who really should not have the keys to this thing. It was one of these instances where people regard this as a scientific failure and yet when you look at the way so much of science is being practiced now, be it in the domains of complex systems, or in machine learning, what they were doing was easily like 20 or 30 years ahead of its time. JESSICA: Well, no wonder they didn’t appreciate it. MICHAEL: [chuckles] Exactly. So it's like, they went in not knowing what they were going to get out of it, but there was this tragic mismatch between the logic of Ed Bass’ billionaire family about what it means to have a return on an investment and the logic of ecological engineering where you're just poking at a system to see what will happen and you don't even know where to set the controls yet. So anyway. JESSICA: And it got too big. You talked about the media, it got too widely disseminated and became embarrassed because it wasn't on an island. It wasn't in a place where the genetic drift can become normal. MICHAEL: Right. It was suddenly subject to the constraints imposed upon it in terms of the way that people were being taught science in public school in the 1980s that this is what the scientific method is. You start with a hypothesis and it's like what if your – JESSICA: Which are not standards that are relevant to that situation. MICHAEL: Exactly. And honestly, the same thing applies to other computational forms of science. It took a long time for the techniques pioneered at the Santa Fe Institute to be regarded as legitimate. I'm thinking of cellular automata, agent-based modeling, and computer simulation generally. Steven Wolfram did a huge service, in some sense, to the normalization of those things in publishing A New Kind of Science, that massive book in whatever it was, 2004, or something where he said, “Look, we can run algorithmic experiments,” and that's different from the science that you're familiar with, but it's also setting aside for a moment, the attribution failure that that book is and acknowledging who actually pioneered A New Kind of Science. [chuckles] JESSICA: At least it got some information out. MICHAEL: Right. At least it managed to shift the goalpost in terms of what the expectations are; what constitutes a scientific experiment in the first place. JESSICA: So it shifted categories. MICHAEL: Yeah. So I think about, for example, a research that was done on plant growth in a basement. I forget who it was that did this. I think I heard this from, it was either Doug Rushkoff, or Charles Eisenstein that was talking about this, where you got two completely different results and they couldn't figure out what was going on. And then they realized that it was at different moments in the lunar cycle and that it didn't matter if you put your plant experiment in a basement and lit everything with artificial bulbs and all this stuff. Rather than sunlight, rather than clean air, if you could control for everything, but that there's always a context outside of your context. So this notion that no matter how cleverly you try to frame your model, that when it comes time to actually experiment on these things in the real world, that there's always going to be some extra analogy you've missed and that this has real serious and grave implications in terms of our economic models, because there will always be someone that's falling through the cracks. How do we actually account for all of the stakeholders in conversations about the ecological cost of dropping a new factory over here, for example? It's only recently that people, anywhere in the modern world, are starting to think about granting ecosystems legal protections as entities befitting of personhood and this kind of thing. JESSICA: Haven’t we copyrighted those yet? MICHAEL: [laughs] So all of that, there's plenty of places to go from there, I'm sure. REIN: Well, this does remind me of one of the things that Stafford Beer tried was he said, “Ponds are viable systems, they’re ecologies, they're adaptive, they're self-sustaining. Instead of trying to model how a pond works, what if we just hook the inputs of the business process into the pond and then hook the adaptions made by the pond as the output back into the business process and use the pond as the controlling system without trying to understand what makes a pond good at adapting?” That is so outside of the box and it blows my mind that he was doing this, well, I guess it was the 60s, or whatever, but this goes well beyond black boxing, right? MICHAEL: Yeah. So there's kind of a related insight that I saw Michelle Girvan gave at Santa Fe Institute community lecture a few years ago on reservoir computing, which maybe most of your audience is familiar with, but just for the sake of it, this is joining a machine learning system to a source of analog chaos, basically. So putting a computer on a bucket of water and then just kicking the bucket, every once in a while, to generate waves so that you're feeding chaos into the output of the machine learning algorithm to prevent overfitting. Again, and again, and again, you see this value where this is apparently the evolutionary value of play and possibly also, of dreaming. There's a lot of good research on both of these areas right now that learning systems are all basically hill climbing algorithms that need to be periodically disrupted from climbing the wrong local optimum. So in reservoir computing, by adding a source of natural chaos to their weather prediction algorithms, they were able to double the horizon at which they were able to forecast meteorological events past the mathematic limit that had been proven and established for this. That is like, we live in a noisy world. JESSICA: Oh, yeah. Just because it’s provably impossible doesn't mean we can't do something that's effectively the same thing, that's close enough. MICHAEL: Right. Actually, in that example, I think that there's a strong argument for the value of that which we can't understand. [laughs] It's like it's actually important. So much has been written about the value of Slack, of dreaming, of taking a long walk, of daydreaming, letting your mind wander to scientific discovery. So this is where great innovations come from is like, “I'm going to sleep on it,” or “I'm going to go on vacation.” Just getting stuck on an idea, getting fixated on a problem, we actually tend to foreclose on the possibility of answering that problem entirely. Actually, there's a good reason to – I think this is why Silicon Valley has recognized the instrumental value of microdosing, incidentally. [laughs] That this is that you actually want to inject a little noise into your algorithm and knock yourself off the false peak that you've stranded yourself on. JESSICA: Because if you aim for predictability and consistency, if you insist on reasonableness, you'll miss everything interesting. MICHAEL: Or another good way to put it is what is it, reasonable women don't make history. [laughs] There is actually a place for the – JESSICA: You don’t change the system by maximally conforming. MICHAEL: Right. JESSICA: If there is a place for… MICHAEL: It’s just, there is a place for non-conformity and it's a thing where it's like, I really hope and I have some optimism that what we'll see, by the time my daughter is old enough to join the workforce, is that we'll see a move in this direction where non-conformity has been integrated somehow into our understanding of how to run a business that we actively seek out people that are capable of doing this. For the same reason that we saw over the 20th century, we saw a movement from one size fits all manufacturing to design your own Nike shoes. There's this much more bespoke approach. JESSICA: Oh, I love those. MICHAEL: Yeah. So it's like we know that if we can tailor our systems so that they can adapt across multiple different scales, that they're not exploiting economies of scale that ultimately slash the redundancy that allows an organization to adapt to risk. That if we can find a way to actually generate a kind of a fractal structure in the governance of organizations in the way that we have reflexes. The body already does this, you don't have to sit there and think about everything you do and if you did, you’d die right away. JESSICA: [laughs] Yeah. REIN: Yeah. MICHAEL: If you had to pass every single twitch all the way up the chain to your frontal cortex JESSICA: If we had to put breathe on the list. [laughs] MICHAEL: Right. If you had to sit there and approve every single heartbeat, you'd be so dead. [overtalk] JESSICA: Oh my gosh, yeah. That's an energy allocation and it all needs to go through you so that you can have control. REIN: I just wanted to mention, that reminded me of a thing that Klaus Krippendorff, who's a cybernetics guy, said that there is virtue in the act of delegating one's agency to trustworthy systems. We're talking, but I don't need to care about how the packets get from my machine to yours and I don't want to care about that, but there's a trade-off here where people find that when they surrender their agency, that this can be oppressive. So how do we find this trade-off? MICHAEL: So just to anchor it again in something that I find really helpful. Thinking about the way that convenience draws people into these compacts, with the market and with the state. You look over the last several hundred years, or thousand years in the West and you see more and more of what used to be taken for granted as the extent in terms of the functions that are performed by the extended family, or by the neighborhood, life in a city, by your church congregations, or whatever. All of that stuff has been out boarded to commercial interests and to federal level oversight, because it's just more efficient to do it that way at the timescales that matter, that are visible to those systems. Yet, what COVID has shown us is that we actually need neighborhoods that suddenly, it doesn't – my wife and I, it was easy to make the decision to move across country to a place where we didn't know anybody to take a good job. But then suddenly when you're just alone in your house all the time and you've got nobody to help you raise your kids, that seems extremely dumb. So there's that question of just as I feel like modern science is coming back around to acknowledging that a lot of what was captured in old wives’ tales and in traditional indigenous knowledge, ecological knowledge systems that were regarded by the enlightenment as just rumor, or… JESSICA: Superstition. MICHAEL: Superstition, that it turns out that these things actually had, that they had merit, they were evolved. JESSICA: There was [inaudible] enough. MICHAEL: Right. Again, it wasn't rendered in the language that allowed it to be the subject of quantitative research until very recently and then, suddenly it was and suddenly, we had to circle back around. Science is basically in this position where they have to sort of canonize Galileo, they're like, “Ah, crap. We burned all these witches, but it turns out they were right.” There's that piece of it. So I think relatedly, one of the things that we're seeing in economist samples and Wendy Carlin have written about this is the return of the civil society, the return of mutual aid networks, and of gift economies, and of the extended family, and of buildings that are built around in courtyards rather than this Jeffersonian everyone on their own plot of land approach. That we're starting to realize that we had completely emptied out the topsoil basically of all of these community relationships in order to standardize things for a mass big agricultural approach, that on the short scale actually does generate greater yield. It's easier to have conversations with people who agree with you than it is – in a way, it's inexpedient to try and cross the aisle and have a conversation with someone with whom you deeply and profoundly disagree. But the more polarized we become as a civilization, the more unstable we become as a civilization. So over this larger timescale, we actually have to find ways to incentivize talking to people with whom you disagree, or we're screwed. We're kicking legs out from under the table. REIN: At this point, I have to name drop Habermas because he had this idea that there were two fundamental cognitive interests that humans have to direct their attempts to acquire knowledge. One is a technical interest in achieving goals through prediction and control and the other is a practical interest in ensuring mutual understanding. His analysis was that advanced capitalist societies, the technical interest dominates at the expense of the practical interest and that knowledge produced by empirical, scientific, analytic sciences becomes the prototype of all knowledge. I think that's what you're talking about here that we've lost touch with this other form of knowledge. It's not seen as valuable and the scientific method, the analytical approaches have come to dominate. MICHAEL: Yeah, precisely. [laughs] Again, I think in general, we've become impoverished in our imagination because again, the expectations, there's a shifting baseline. So what people expect to pull out of the ocean now is a fish that you might catch off just a commercial, or a recreational fishing expedition. It's a quarter of the size of the same species of fish you might've caught 50, 70 years ago and when people pull up this thing and they're like, “Oh, look at –” and they feel proud of themselves. I feel like that's what's going on with us in terms of our we no longer even recognize, or didn't until very recently recognize that we had been unwittingly colluding in the erosion of some very essential levels of organization and human society and that we had basically sold our souls to market efficiency and efficient state level governance. Now it's a huge mess to try and understand. You look at Occupy Wall Street and stuff like that and it just seems like such an enormous pain in the ass to try and process things in that way. But it's because we're having to relearn how to govern neighborhoods and govern small communities and make business decisions at the scale of a bioregion rather than a nation. JESSICA: Yeah. It's a scale thing. I love the phrase topsoil of community relationships, because when you talk about the purposive knowledge that whatever you call it, Rein, that is goal seeking. It's like the one tall tree that is like, “I am the tallest tree,” and it keeps growing taller and taller and taller, and it doesn't see that it's falling over because there's no trees next to it to protect it from the wind. It's that weaving together between all the trees and the different knowledge and the different people, our soul is there. Our resilience is there. REIN: Michael, you keep talking about scale. Are you talking about scale theory? MICHAEL: Yeah. Scaling laws, like Geoffrey West's stuff, Luis Bettencourt is another researcher at the University of Chicago who does really excellent work in urban scaling. I just saw a talk from him this morning that was really quite interesting about there being a sweet spot where a city can exist between how thinly it's distributed infrastructurally over a given area versus how congested it is. Because population and infrastructure scale differently, they scale at different rates than you get – REIN: If I remember my West correctly, just because I suspect that not all of our listeners are familiar with scale theory, there's this idea that there are certain things that grow super linearly as things scale and certain things that grow sub linearly. So for example, the larger a city gets, you get a 15% more restaurants, but you also get 15% more flu, but you also get 15% less traffic. MICHAEL: Yeah. So anything that depends on infrastructures scales sub linearly. A city of 2 million people has 185% the number of gas stations, but anything that scales anything having to do with the number of interactions between people scales super linearly. You get 115% of the – rather you get, what is it, 230%? Something like that. Anyway, it's 150%, it's 85% up versus 115% up. So patents, but also crime and also, just the general pace of life scale at 115% per capita. So like, disease transmission. So you get into these weird cases—and this links back to what we were talking about earlier—where people move into the city, because it's per unit. In a given day, you have so much more choice, you have so much more opportunity than you would in your agrarian Chinese community and that's why Shenzhen is basically two generations old. 20 million people and none of them have grandparents living in Shenzhen because they're all attracted to this thing. But at scale, what that means is that everyone is converging on the same answer. Everyone's moving into Shenzhen and away from their farming community. So you end up – in a way, it's not that that world is any more innovative. It's just, again, easier to capture that innovation and therefore, measure it. But then back to what we were saying about convergent categories and biogeography, it's like if somebody comes up with a brilliant idea in the farm, you're not necessarily going to see it. But if somebody comes up with the same brilliant idea in the city, you might also not see it for different reasons. So anyway, I'm in kind of a ramble, but. JESSICA: The optimal scale for innovation is not the individual and it's not 22 million, it's in between. MICHAEL: Well, I feel like at the level of a city, you're no longer talking about individuals almost in a way. At that point, you're talking about firms. A city is like a rainforest in which the fauna are companies. Whereas, a neighborhood as an ecosystem in which the fauna, or individual people and so, to equate one with the other is a potential point of confusion. Maybe an easier way to think about this would be multicellular life. My brain is capable of making all kinds of innovations that any cell, or organ in my body could not make on its own. There's a difference there. [overtalk] JESSICA: [inaudible]. MICHAEL: Right. It's easier, however, for a cell to mutate if it doesn't live inside of me. Because if it does, it's the cancer – [overtalk] JESSICA: The immune system will come attack it. MICHAEL: Right. My body will come and regulate that. JESSICA: Like, “You’re different, you are right out.” MICHAEL: Yeah. So it's not about innovation as some sort of whole category, again, it's about different kinds of innovation that are made that are emergent at different levels of organization. It's just the question of what kinds of innovation are made possible when you have something like the large Hadron Collider versus when you've got five people in a room around a pizza. You want to find the appropriate scale for the entity, for the system that's the actual level of granularity at which you're trying to look at the stuff, so. REIN: Can I try to put a few things together here in potentially a new way and see if it's anything? So we talked about the edge of chaos earlier and we're talking about scale theory now, and in both, there's this idea of fractal geometry. This idea that a coastline gets larger, the smaller your ruler is. In scale theory, there's this idea of space filling that you have to fill the space with things like capillaries, or roads and so on. But in the human lung, for example, if you unfurled all of the surface area, you'd fill up like a football field, I think. So maybe there's this idea that there's complexity that's possible, that’s made possible by the fractal shape of this liminal region that the edge of chaos. MICHAEL: Yeah. It's certainly, I think as basically what it is in maximizing surface area, like you do within a lung, then you're maximizing exposure. So if the scientific community were operating on the insights that it has generated in a deliberate way, then you would try to find a way to actually incorporate the fringe physics community. There's got to be a way to use that as the reservoir of chaos, rather than trying to shut that chaos out of your hill climbing algorithm and then at that point, it's just like, where's the threshold? How much can you invite before it becomes a distraction from getting anything done? When it's too noisy to be coherent. Arguably, what the internet has done for humankind has thrown it in completely the opposite direction where we've optimized entirely for surface area instead of for coherence. So now we have like, no two people seem to be able to agree on reality anymore. That's not useful either. REIN: Maybe there's also a connectivity thing here where if I want to get from one side of the city to the other, there are 50 different routes. But if I want to get from one city to another, there's a highway that does it. MICHAEL: Yeah, totally. So it's just a matter of rather than thinking about what allows for the most efficient decisions, in some sense, at one given timescale, it's how can we design hierarchical information, aggregation structures so as to create a wise balance between the demands on efficiency that are held at and maintained at different scales. SFI researcher, Jessica Flack talks about this in her work on collective computation and primate hierarchies where it’s a weird, awkward thing, but basically, there is an evolutionary argument for police, that it turns out that having a police system is preventing violence. This is mathematically demonstrable, but you also have to make sure that there's enough agency at the individual level, in the system that the police aren't in charge of everything going on. It's not just complex, it's complicated. [laughs] We've thrown out a ton of stuff on this call. I don't know, maybe this is just whetting people's appetite for something a little bit more focused and concise. JESSICA: This episode is going to have some extensive show notes. MICHAEL: Yeah. [chuckles] JESSICA: It's definitely time to move into reflections. JACOB: You were talking, at the very beginning, about Spotify. Like how, when unknown ideas are able to find their tribe and germinate. I was reading about how Netflix does business and it's very common for them to make some new content and then see how it goes for 30 days and then just kill it. Because they say, “Well, this isn't taking off. We're not going to make more of it,” and a lot of people can get really upset with that. There's definitely been some really great things out on Netflix that I'm like, for one on the one hand, “Why are you canceling this? I really wanted more,” and it seems like there's a lot of the people that do, too. What that's making me think about as well for one thing, I think it seems like Netflix from my experience, is not actually marketing some of their best stuff. You would never know it’s there, just in the way of people to find more unknown things. But also, I'm thinking about how just generally speaking some of the best ideas, TV shows, music, whatever are the kinds of things that there's not going to be an established container, group of people, that you can say, “We want to find white men ages 25 to 35 and we're going to dump it on their home screen because if anyone's going to like it, it's them and if they do, then we keep it and if they don't move, we don't.” I feel like the best things are we don't actually know who those groups are going to be and it's going to have a weird constellation of people that I couldn't actually classify. So I was just thinking about how that's an interesting challenge. JESSICA: Sweet. Rein, you have a thing? REIN: Yeah. I have another thing. I was just reminded of von Foerster, who was one of the founders of Second-order cybernetics. He has an ethical imperative, which is act always so as to increase the number of choices. I think about this actually a lot in my day-to-day work about maximizing the option value that I carry with me as I'm doing my work, like deferring certain decisions and so on. But I think it also makes sense in our discussion as well. JESSICA: True. Mine is about externalities. We talked about how, whatever you do, whatever your business does, whatever your technology does, there's always going to be effects on the world on the context and the context of the context that you couldn't predict. That doesn't mean don't do anything. It doesn't mean look for those. Recognize that there's going to be surprises and try to find them. It reminds me of sometimes, I think in interviewing, we’re like, “There are cognitive biases so in order to be fair, we must not use human judgment!” [laughter] Which is not helpful. I mean, yes, there are cognitive biases so look for them and try to compensate. Don't try to use only something predictable, like an algorithm. That's not helpful. That's it. MICHAEL: Yeah. Just to speak to a little bit of what each of you have said, I think for me, one of the key takeaways here is that if you're optimizing for future opportunity, if you're trying to—and I think I saw MIT defined intelligence in this way, that AI could be measured in terms of its ability to – AGI rather could be measured in terms of its ability to increase the number of games steps available to it, or options available to it in the next step of an unfolding puzzle, or whatever. Superhuman AGI is going to break out of any kind of jail we try to put it in just because it's doing better at this. But the thing is that that's useless if we take it in terms of one spaciotemporal scale. Evolutionary dynamics have found a way to do this in a rainforest that optimizes biodiversity and the richness of feeding relationships in a food web without this short-sighted quarterly return maximizing type of approach. So the question is are you trying to create more opportunities for yourself right now? Are you trying to create more opportunities for your kids, or are you trying to transcend the rivalrous dynamics? You've set yourself up for intergenerational warfare if you pick only one of those. The tension between feed yourself versus feed your kids is resolved in a number of different ways in different species that have different – yeah. It is exactly, Rein in the chat you said, it reminds you of the trade-off between efficiency and adaptability and it's like, arguably, adaptability is efficiency aggregated when you're looking at it over a longer timescale, because you don't want to have to rebuild civilization from scratch. So [chuckles] I think it's just important to add the dimension of time and to consider that this is something that's going on at multiple different levels of organization at the same time and that's a hugely important to how we actually think about these topics. JESSICA: Thinking of scales of time, you’ve thought about these interesting topics for an hour, or so now and I hope you'll continue thinking about them over weeks and consult the show notes. Michael, how can people find out more about you? MICHAEL: I'm on Twitter and Instagram if people prefer diving in social media first, I don't recommend it. I would prefer you go to patreon.com/michaelgarfield and find future fossils podcasts there. I have a lot of other stuff I do, the music and the art and everything feeds into everything else. So because I'm a parent and because I don't want all of my income coming from my day job, I guess Patreon is where I suggest people go first. [laughs] Thank you. JESSICA: Thank you. And of course, to support the podcast, you can also go to patrion.com/greaterthancode. If you donate even a dollar, you can join our Slack channel and join the conversation. It'll be fun. Special Guest: Michael Garfield.

In today’s episode, our guests are Kathryn and Michael Redman, Founders of Half a Bubble Out Advertising. For more than 18 years in the business industry, Kathryn and Michael are in pursuit of helping small and upcoming business owners to find something fulfilling on their passion while making a profit out of it. Together, they created the book “Fulfilled”, to lay the blueprint of a successful business. Today, Kathryn and Michael will share with us how to a make profit out of your passion.   [10:35] Why should we listen to you? [Michael] Being married for 27 years, doing business for 18 years, and has survived the Great Recession, we have grown not just one but two seven-figure businesses in two different markets. If you want to learn about profitable business, serving others, and achieve personal fulfillment in doing so, we are the people you want to ask.    [12:01] How did you get into the business? [Kathryn] I have not originated in a business-oriented family. Michael and I had worked together on our previous careers and we discovered how we loved working together. There’s incredible mutual respect and giftings that we have discovered between the two of us and we have a clear recognition that the success we have achieved, is independent of one another.   [14:06] [Michael] There were some dynamics that we need to value people if we wanted to do business. We want to grow ourselves with the company and the people that we cared about. We should not be irresponsible if we want to build the company out of trust, competence, and character.   [18:28] Navigating difficulties [Michael] Turnover rate has been one of the biggest expenses in corporate America and people have created the notion of building as much experience as can. Retraining employees are way too expensive because of this myth. [19:34] Because we value people, quality, and accountability, we have clients that stick around us for a long time. Your client will value your competency for a lifetime. [20:35] [Kathryn] Treating people and having an excellent interpersonal-relationship is enjoyable. Valuing relationships allowed us to be in a place of peace and encourage us to go back to an environment that people would enjoy.   [25:02] Faith [Kathryn] Faith is critical to who we are, our life, and our identity. One can be a stained or clear glass where; a stained glass is leaving it all to faith that binds you while a clear glass is to focus on the values and practicality. We opted for the clear glass because it would be hard for people to follow with faith as the barrier towards learning. [26:18] [Michael] Faith has influenced our philosophy, core values, and business decisions in every part of our business.   [27:50] Fulfilled [Michael] We could not find any book that allowed us to make a profitable business that integrates core values and leadership development. Our book is the reflection of what we learned over the years and how to utilize the most out of our gifts, talents, and skills.   [30:19] [Kathryn] some so many people are hard-pressed choosing between profit and passion. We encountered many people who lose their dreams because of the lack of provision or there is too much and it led to the destruction of a relationship.   [32:14] In a sense, we want to create a mini-MBA for entrepreneurs. It’s a passionate provision model that states the six areas that you need to focus on to achieve the minimum working competency to be successful in running a business.   [35:08] What promise did God make to the world, when he created you? [Kathryn] That there would be someone in the room who could crack a joke when tension rose.   [35:51] [Michael] There is somebody to help you through the paradoxes in life and navigate valleys.   Key Quotes: [10:49 – 10:52] “Business is a privilege and an honor. It’s a good thing to serve people.” [15:34 – 15:39] “We are each other’s best friends and holding each other accountable, things go a lot smoother.” [35:34 – 35:39] “There are things in life that may seem opposite, but they are both true.” Get their book “Fulfilled” on https://www.fulfilledthebook.com/ Follow Michael Redman on:  Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/MichaelKRedmanBusiness/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/michaelkredman LinkedIn:  https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelkredman/ Follow Kathryn Redman on: Facebook:  https://www.facebook.com/KathrynJRedman/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/kathrynjredman LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kathryn-redman-069b006/

George:  Alright, everybody. Welcome back to another episode of the money. The George show a free for all Friday and the mind of Georgie belongs in a straight jacket, but luckily podcasting lets me share it with you. And speaking of straight jackets on the mind, I have to give a proper intro to my friend who was on the podcast today.I am super stoked to have Michael Bernoff wrote a book called average sucks and basically helps businesses and people. Optimize their life move from where they are to where they want to go and helps people like me that have struggled with self sabotage and mind blocks and past traumas, get through them and realize that we don't have to be a victim of our past.And that in every moment we get to choose where we go with all the tools, situations, and some of the best energy without the creepy hand clapping that I've ever seen when it comes to personal development. So without further ado, I'd like to welcome my friend, Michael, to the show. Michael. Good to see you, man.Michael: I appreciate it, brother. You'll be zero hound. Like that's all you get is handclap clap, like right there. That's the creepiest creepy as we get George. So it's exciting to be here. I appreciate the invite. Let's change some wine. George:  I'm stoked. And we were, we were overdue for a catchup, everybody. So I just said, get on the podcast and we'll just catch up there and we'll tell it a day.And so Michael, the first question. This kind of kicks everything off for everybody on my show. But when you think back, you've been in this game for a long time, you've been doing personal vellum. You've been doing business, you've been doing high level coaching. You just been helping people transform their lives. But when you look back and reflect on yours and Debra's journey, what was the biggest mistake that you ever made? And what did you learn from it? Michael: Interesting. Biggest mistake overall, or the one that I keep on making that I'm looking to get out of. I mean, which one I'll go, I'll go either direction, Number one is hiring myself. That's it? That's the biggest mistake I made in business is looking for me has been the biggest mistake I've made over the years. I kept on. I kept on bringing on people. I like, I enjoy, I want to hang out with their might buddies. They're my peers. And it was probably the biggest mistake I ever made.And I caught onto this after watching the, the men who built America that show. And I watched that Carnegie had brought on again in Frick, who was the absolute opposite of him. It took me eight years. And probably cost me half a million dollars in salaries and different things over the years, bringing on high level people that are identical to me that were not the opposite of me.And that's been my biggest mistake. I'd say in business, one of the hardest things that I've had to work on getting over is finding the missing link instead of finding a companion as crazy as it sounds.George: I'd say a really good one. And so what's the one you keep making over and over.Michael: You know, what's interesting is every time and we do really, really well, which is all the time, right?We get to this point where we've got this little chunk of this little chunk of space and time and meaning like we've got extra time, we've got extra money, we're in a good spot, which is predominantly my life where we can get this little bit of extra. I get this feeling every once in a while, but I could buy my problem away, meaning that I can hire a person.I can get it thing and do it. Instead of, I realize that I've got to do that myself. So I'm not saying you can't grow, you can't scale, you can't hire. But I'm just saying a lot of times when I get comfortable, have found that I looked four and I'm way beyond the normal comfort of people. But yeah, I find that I want to get to the next level and I think of it as throw money at it or throw something at it.I can make it go away. Instead of realizing that I got to put a little pieces in place myself first, before I can add that extra thing or person. So that's been a big one for me. Hopefully that makes sense. I break it up or am I good?George: I no, you're perfect. You're perfect. Well, I want to actually unpack that because I think that's probably one of the most common themes in the entrepreneurial world.I see. It's just the wrapping paper changes. We get to that place and it's like, it's like silent self sabotage. And like comfort comes and then you're like, Oh, let off the gas pedal for a minute. Okay. I have this space and for me it happens a lot, but what ends up happening for me is like, I'll be recording podcasts, like crazy, and I'll get a big buffer and I'll slow down and then I'm behind again.And I actually let go of the thing that created the space in the first place and then expect you to be able to recreate it overnight. And so I think it's a super, super common thing. I know for me, it isn't everybody I worked with. So as you recognize that, right, I think you nailed something that's so powerful in the entrepreneur world.We're here at all the time. Well, if you have money, you don't have a problem. I was like, well, that's true to a sense, except the foundation still looks the same and another floor as much as you want, but the foundation still can't support it. So like, when you say. For you like doing the work on me, you're looking at like, what are you talking about?And what do you look at and what work are you doing to help set yourself up, to get to that next level? Michael: Well, again, I'll give you a prime example. So I'm the best promoter of what I do. Meaning that when I promote what I do there's two beliefs. I talked to someone recently said the fastest way to change.What you do is to stop believing you're the best at what you do, even though there's certain things I'm phenomenal at the best of the world, the language communication, one of the best of the world at that. Believing that is probably a limitation inside of myself because as soon as I believe I'm the only one that can do it, I give up looking or trying to find anybody to help me.So I give an example. I bring on a business people to, I bring up, forgive me. I bring on myself. I'm excited about what it is that I do. I get excited. I pumped out our business. We make things happen. I promote, I sell. I do. And then I get busy with the infrastructure of taking care of all of it. And then I forget to put in place the things that work like for instance, If I'm training somebody new and I was working with them instead of just training them, I normally train them how to do what I do, show them the things that I do instead of thinking this old way of training or this old way of sharing.Like give an example if I'm great at selling what I do, I'm great at promoting great at selling can do some amazing stuff from stage. How do I duplicate that inside of another person? So doing the work to take the time to actually educate somebody to do it rather than I did the work. Did you see what I did?I hope you, you can do it. That's a big piece of the puzzleGeorge: Yeah, no, no, no. It makes sense. It's something, I pick an analogy. You're the language expert here. I just dabbled in it. I dabbled in the dark arts of language to get myself in trouble. Like that's how I see it, butI think what you nailed is that.You know, I have that same thing. I thought about it before. Like there's things in the world that I'm quote unquote, the Basta and then still having to improve, but I stay there. And then when somebody comes in, I hand them an outcome and I expect them to get there a certain way without giving them the actual way points or the touch points to get there that way.And the truthis that what I've struggled with? Because I'm just going full disclosure in the beginning is a lot of the times, I don't know. How I got there because I don't take the time to reflect or sit down or create that to make it repeatable because gets into my fear of success. Or my story might be wrong or, you know, all of those different pieces.And so Keith Cunningham nailed this one for me in his book, the road less stupid. it kicks me in the nuts every time I listen to it in the best ways, but, uh, yeah, that thinking time has been a really powerful determinant for me on like, just getting clarity and realizing that business.And I'm pretty sure personal development will be the same way as that. My thought with entrepreneurship is like immediate gratification, right? Like if I do this, I'll have this. If I. Launch this I'll make this, but it's just these short term results over and over and over again. And I feel like I've made those swings in my life as well to where it's like, Oh man, I got dad bod during COVID go run 12 miles on a broken the next day.Oh, I pissed them off when I said this, I'm just not going to speak for the next six days. Right. Like all those extreme. So like, how do you. Navigate that response. So I, and I'm only gonna speak for myself. You can use me an example yourself or whatever, but I know that there's times in our life where we're hit with this clarity, or we have to hire, or we get met with this resistance, or this fear comes up and we can either react or respond.And I know practices daily trying to increase that wedge between. You know, trigger and response, but like, what do you do? What's your practice? What do you recommend people do that? So it's not hasty and they can get into training that person the right way, or, you know, replicating their self. I'd love to hear your thoughts on that.Michael: and so do me a favor, cause my add kicked in massively. I'm gonna ask you the question. Could you summarize that question? It's a bunch of pieces of the puzzle. Where do you want me to start on that? Cause that's a big, old question. I want to get this for the listener. I want to get that. So pinpointed where there's just like an exact answer.George:  So I'm driving the Zeigarnik effect home to the T with Michael right now, but. The core of the question is entrepreneurs are going to be faced with either. I need to hire somebody, grow them a moment. A lot of them are emotional based situations. They're either hit with fear or something along those lines, and they have two choices they can react to respond.So how do you recommend somebody navigates that? So we're not making reactive decisions, just trying to buy our way out of the problem and getting into the steps or the way points required both personally, and for the people on the receiving endMichael: So the first thing we've got to figure out is I believe you said earlier, we gotta be focused and yeah, the one thing is we've got to know what it is that we're after and what it is we want at the end of the day. And I think that's one of the biggest mistakes people make. I teach this to my HIQ program, as simple as it is. A lot of times we think outcomes is just our goals, but that's going to be questions.Like, what do we want this to do? That's a crazy question. And it's the people that can ask that question a lot that they really get really comfortable. Like, what do we want this to do? Like, I play ice hockey, right? So I'm going out, like, am I going to just go play hockey? Or like, what do I want to do this shift?Where are we at the approximate? Cause my outlet to get out of the zone as quickly as I can use energy efficient and then go up the other side of the ice. So most people, what I've recognized is they do not really know what they want. What it is they're doing to actually do. So I would start there with people.Number one is like, if you're hiring people, like, what do you want them to do? Like, I know you think you need somebody, but like, what does it look like when it's working? These are questions. Most people don't know how to ask. So, like I say to salespeople all the time, like when you're great at sales, what does it look like?What are the results you're getting? I'm saw a lot of people were making a lot of money. What does it look like? Because if it's just about sales and making money, You're missing it, the quality of life. What is the thing that we're after? So I think the biggest question we've got to ask right off the bat is what is it that, what is it you're after?What is it you want it to do? Because I think a lot of times the decisions we make in our lives, this is where my book average sucks comes in. It's like a lot of times people think it's about being better than other people, but we make decisions in life. I would say 99% of our decisions we make are out of problem mode.We're out of like. Something's screwed up or, Oh my God, I got a bandaid issue here. Put a bandaid on it. Just lost everything. I gotta to figure it out. So what happens is we get to a point where we're not where we want to be, and we're willing to take anything other than what it is we have versus ultimately getting what it is we want.So what I always say to people is that if you really stopped and thought your entire life even becoming an entrepreneur, Came out of damage mode. It's like either at a job, you hate, you want it to be your own boss. You wanted to figure it out. You were pissed off. It's about something that you became an entrepreneur. If any of us thought this through, we probably never would have bothered becoming it's crazy to be an entrepreneur, gotta be a whack job, screw up, screw loose person. But then we get so into it. It becomes our identity. So I'd say one of the biggest things issues. We run into it where we all need to start a big starting point is what do we want it to do?And number two, it, because when we realize we're here to solve a problem, What is the alternative to this problem because, Hey, we don't have enough leads. What do we do? Oh, you sell leads. I'll take you come here. But then we're asking, like, what kind of leads do we want? Is this the kind of person we want a relationship with? How long have we worked with this person? So we make very rash decisions. When we're not where we want to be. So that's one mistake that all human beings make and entrepreneurs, especially. So hopefully that's the beginning of an answer for your question. George:  Yeah, no, it's no, it's super good. So, you know, I think outcome based thinking is something that I just started to like really, really understand. Andthis might sound really weird. I hadn't done enough worker forgiveness on myself, even get into outcomes prior to this point, like I was using entrepreneurship as a tool, right. Like I knew where I wanted to go. But when it came to like being able to describe it with texture or detail or an outcome, I couldn't go there.I couldn't think about it. There was like this block. And so I had to kind of like, I don't want to say earn the right, but I kind of had to go through some licks and lessons to get into that clarity. And so now that I have that outcome based thinking it started to change everything for me, and I'm noticing a lot more alignment, but also requires a lot more patients on my side.Because I'm healing from that dopamine and gratification. So when you say outcomes, step one is clarity. And I think that that's probably been the most helpful one for me. And so somebody sitting here like, okay, To have this problem. I need more leads, my website's not converting.Nobody's buying my offer. Right. The easy immediate thing to do is react, knee jerk, jump in and be like, Oh, let me get more. And then creating permanent damage down the roadMichael:  thinking it through, you're thinking short term now, long term.George: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So how do you, what are like some of the tools that you can use? So like I use ice baths, right? Like for me, like it's the only thing that shocks me into the present moment. Ice baths, man,Miachel: wake your ass up.George:  Whew. Like you want me present? You put me in an ice bath. Right? All thoughts go away. All emotions go away. And I am in then here and now faster than I could ever get there. But. I know what it feels like, like during COVID, like we lost a couple of companies, I lost seven figures, right? Like I felt there were times that if I didn't have the tools in my toolbox, I would have been immobile, like paralyzed, like not knowing what to do because the weight was so heavy. And I have so much empathy and compassion those moments. Cause I know what it's like to feel stuck and frozen PTSD and all those other things. And so, yeah. You know, we're like, Oh, have outcome have clarity, but then once you have it and you get hit with that resistance, like what are some of the tools or processes or things that people can do in their life, help them navigate those times.Michael: Yeah. So let's take a real example here real quick. Let's let's bounce back and forth. You and I are cool. Let's do it real. Let play off this real quick. Let's think a real world equation. Let's  like, I'll take it just on me, but like, you got me here and we're lot. I have let's take bill, the entrepreneur, what he's dealing with and all, but on the dime. Cause I can give you a generic or I can help you personally, or somebody you've met like right now like there's somebody dealing with this on the show. So I'm going to throw it back at you.George: Yeah, I got bill. I got a lot of bills, myself being bill included.Michael: I can get in as we're listening. Keep going.George:  Oh yeah, yeah. Plugged me in. So our computer doesn't die over here. So bill all pre the world being shut down. Everything was good, was cruising. Things were predictable. Revenue was coming and then all of a sudden, the world gets shut down and locked down.Amazon changes, loses product, you know, sales chop, 90% having to make hard decisions. And now bill through that, but it's almost rebuild or relaunch where we are, but there's so many things happening that emotionally it's completely like all over the place. And so there's a lack of clarity. Number one because the state of the world is so crazy and nobody knows what it's going to look like and then how to find the right levers based on what's there.Now you do business coaching. So I'm asking about this particularly. So for me, bill is I either have to close this business or I have to make a big shift right now. Right? Like my social's kind of working, but it's not converting to sales. The people that I had, aren't buying again. I have to go find a new avatar.My product didn't get listed or it's not converting my website, my ads aren't working, but I think the root of it is there so much that can be done and everything was working and everything broke at one time. And so it feels paralyzing.Michael: So let, let's play with the words here real quick. And we'll just, I say we stay together here cause I'm going to want to watch this, your bill and the word. So I watched you're in California, right? George: I'm in Cali.Michael: So I watched not going to get into politics, but I watched the guy who makes the deal decisions over there, make the announcements right around March and he goes, California people, please stay home. This is what he said.  Please stay home.And then a minute later, The LA times is like California's on lockdown. He never said that. They said that terminology lockdown is designed in a strategic language to literally lock you down and mobilize you in place. It is designed by media companies to literally make you sit and read, sit and watch, and basically fuck yourself.Get nothing. Does that make sense? I don't know a better way to put it, but it's made to make you go, huh? It'd be down like this and they own, you that's designed no different than Netflix, that little button that makes you go to the next episodeof madman or whatever it is that's on next. So it's designed to do that.So one of the things is language is the fastest way to change anything. So I'm gonna give you a little bit of little technique. This is my favorite statement is that. Communication is the most underdeveloped underutilized asset that we have as human beings to achieving anything you want in this world.I'll say it again. Medication is most underdeveloped utilize asset that we have as human beings. So when people are like saying to themselves, the world is hard right now. Let me ask you a question. Is it hard or is it not what you want it to be? Because one of those is you're immobilized. It's difficult.A Navy seal would not call it hard. They would say, this is not optimal. I know that I worked with tons of Navy seals. They would say those circumstances are not optimal. And that is why they're Navy seals. Why we admire them. We go like this. Even if you don't like the military Navy seals are like this, we look at them go bad-ass.They're amazing. They are communicators galore. Hostage negotiation. They do incredible things. I've met a lot of these crazy guys over the years. So one of the things that I've recognized is human beings look at their situation and they do not set it up to win. I don't want you to be positive and go.This is great, but I want you to see it for what it is. Ultimately COVID is what's called an inconvenience. It's a massive inconvenience. You had a life that was different. The other alternative is you said you want a simple technique for people. How old are you now? George? George: 37Michael: 37 years old. How many months have we been dealing with nonsense?George: Seven. Six.Michael: Okay. You're good at math. You're good at math. What seven months too. Like my daughter asked me quickly today what's 2000 seconds. And how many hours is that? I go, 33. I'm quick with math. So what I recognize, you got to see me at a blackjack table. It's scare you what I can do,but what's interesting.I take over the dealers' minds. It's a fascinating concept. We do. But if I were to say at a 37 years of your life, seven months of which have been very inconvenient, correct? A lot of times we think our lives are over, but if you take 37 and you divide seven months into it. This is ridiculously like not a big deal, but most people it's been going on for 37 years in seven months.We're good. I'd be very concerned. Well, most people don't realize. We use words like quarantine. We use words like Corona. We use all these things that are going on and we're losing. The other thing that we're doing is most people. And I used to teach this. This is called a phone, right? Remember these things.George: Oh, Oh, wait the cable with a cord Michael: with the cable. This is like the old school right now. Back in the day when I'd call people, I'd say I'd have a lot of clients that call people money in motion. There's a lot to do with what you're sharing with me and they give people too much credit. So they're calling a guy that just, he just loved Google got 300 million bucks.He was one of the founders of Google. And you work for UBS financial. You want to transfer that money into your account. So when you call him, the guy could be five foot six, and you could be six foot five. And you're looking up at them. You're putting them on a pedestal. I think most people don't realize they put their problems up here.The reason Joel Olsteen has big Joel Olsteen is cause we picture up there power. We picture big up top. Most people position their problem incorrectly. Like it, when we were kids, it was Michael Jordan, Wayne Gretzky, Mike Tyson. That was it. That was okay. Tiger woods. That was it. Bumping bang. Boom. And what did we do? We put them on a pedestal, but anytime you put a problem or a person on a pedestal, you put yourself on the ground. So one of the things we need to do is call the Smurf and I hate to say the word Smurf, but when I call people, I picked I'm three foot two. And the reason why is it allows me to dominate in the situation.Most people are picturing COVID Amazon not working. They're like looking at, if you're watching me and not listening, I'm like cowering down to this thing. Instead of looking at it, like the spec, when the IRS sends me a letter in the mail, I know I don't want to read it. I look at it. I imagine it in my head, some little guy in a cubicle sent me this letter with his typewriter.Let me see what I got to deal with that I opened it up and I learned to deal with it. But if you picture big, bad, scary agency with machine guns, which the IRS doesn't have, you're picturing them with AR fifteens and your picture of them knocking on your door. They're their pencil pushers. George: They have a stapler and pocket protector.Michael: Yes there, the guy from office space or whatever it is, right. You're getting at it's all of it comes down to framing your life gets easy when you frame. So like I noticed this in my relationship when I first got married, my wife would say to me, listen, we're arguing. It's not over. We're just arguing. Like, it doesn't mean I'm like, Oh, okay, got it. This is.an argument in a relationship. George: Oh yeah. Aye. I say this because I think this is such a valid point and I don't know what part and just full disclosure, a lot of you're listening to, I've done a lot of personal mom or Michael, somebody I like highly respected. So all of this is very validating, the work that I work on every day, but one of the things for me that I noticed back in the past, and it's still cause the not compartmentalize, it still comes up, but I still have a default emotional state that comes up sometimes where it's like this happened.It's the end of the world, or I didn't communicate effectively. She wants me to move out or that didn't happen. The business is over. Now. I have the tools in place to be like, okay, no compartmentalize, like not like frame it. Right. Container it. And be like, okay, Nope. In this moment. Right. And one of the things I asked myself a lot is who am I.Who am I? Who am I? There's this awesome movie called chasing great,chasing presence. But, the professor, I forgot his name, but he's the leading professor on duality. Michael: I'm gonna write this down.Geroge: Yeah, it's called chasing the present and he's the leading professor, like most acclaimed, every award ever when it comes to duality and it was this really simple concept because in that moment, I asked myself that question, like, who am I?And I'm like, Oh, I'm this scared little boy. And it's like, what was I born that way? No. And I'm like, Oh, who am I? And I'm like, Oh, well I'm being compassion, but also fearful, empathetic and scarce. And I was like, was I born that way? I'm like, no. And then like it gets down. Yeah. And eventually there's no answer to the question and I'm who I want to be or whoever I am in that.Moment to moment . It's a really interesting perspective. So when you think about containers and language, cause like you're a master at NLP and framing and all those different things. I mean, it, it lands heavy when you, when you sit here, talk about like the media and the consumption and, you know, having to protect our lives from all that poison out there.But then what are some of the, like the self-talk statements? Like what are some of the empowerment things that people can do or say in those moments to create that container or frame those emotions or that experience to help them navigate that?Michael:  Well, let's let's, let's do something really interesting. Let's take a step back. I feel like we're I feel like we're debating. It's like I watched the debates. It's hilarious.George: OkayMichael:  Sure. Train really well, but not a bad debate. Let me go back sentence to what you were talking about. Then I'll pick it up. I have add like most of your listeners,  solve this. So one thing you said is pretty interesting about identity right there. So like when I was writing my book, A nine year old boy was trying to write the book. I didn't realize that Tucker had to call me out on it. It's like, Hey dude, what are you doing? Okay, what are you doing? Right. It's one of my, one of my best friends.And he's like, Hey, call me. I was like what are you doing? What's wrong with you?, And I realized that a nine year old boy that was trying to prove a point was writing the book. and then one day I looked in the mirror and go, why am I feeling thing so much of what am I doing? And then I realized something very interesting that I was trying to prove a point that I could do it myself, that I didn't need anybody else that I wanted to get it done.I wanted to heal myself, whatever it is I thought I was dealing with. And then one day I looked in the mirror and I was actually talking to Brad. Brad stands at one of my buddies. I was talking to Brad about this and I called him out right away the podcast. I said, Brad, how old are you? And he told me he was like 40 something.And he told me I will do this. Let me tell you a little story. I go, I believed I couldn't get into the book. And then myself who is writing the book and the nine year old boy was trying to write the book. That's where the idea of the book came in trying to be important. Then I said, well, what would a 41 year old man was a year ago?What would a 41 year old man me, that has worked with hundreds of thousands of people all over the world. That's happily married with great kids. What can that guy do? And what's amazing is most of us haven't updated our identity in a long time to make decisions from the who we are now versus who we were then.So one of the first things I'm going to, all of you is take a minute today. Look in the freaking mirror. You don't want any work to do. You don't have 90 seconds look in the mirror and go, who am I today? I don't care if your life sucks today, I'm a guy or girl that has been through a bunch of shit still alive, and I've made it is different than I'm a person that doesn't know what to do.So what I'm getting at is most of us have to, the first thing we need to do is look in the mirror and goes, who's actually making this decision. The problem is as a business owner, Most of us are still operating off who we were instead of who it is we want to be. So when I sit down with people from a coaching perspective, the first thing I ask them is what was your original reason for making money?And they're like, Oh, I wanted financial freedom. And I wanted to prove a point and I want it to be, how long have you been in business? Eight years. Awesome. Do you have financial freedom? Kind of. Okay, good. Are you on bossy ass? Have you proven a point? Yes. Then shut up and work on the next thing. Now it's about being profitable.We've got to move on. Most of us do realize that you're farther along than you think you are. It's just your old, you is running your life. There's multiple inside of ourselves. So a lot of us don't recognize that your brain is different than your mind. Your brain is. Your your, like in origin your mind is the operating system.Like your Mac computer is your brain, the operating system, snow leopard 46, eight seven three two Oh S. That is your mind. And your mind's main focus is keeping not you alive is keeping your identity alive. What you've said is necessary to be true. So that's going back to the thing we showed a minute ago.Now, the next question you asked was. The next question you asked is what do people do? And, and can you frame that last part for me again, because I'm going to add these two things together. George: Yeah. So keep it, to keep it short. So when feeling that way and getting into framing, like what do they do to, to reframe, right.And then take a step forward in that new interpretation. That empowering interpretation.Michael: There's three things. Everything we do. Number one is language. Language is made up of 85 different things, language I'm just making up 85, 80,000 things. There's the words, the intensity, the words, the tone, the word choice, the modality of the words, a million things.Number one is check your language. And the reason I'd say is there's another way to say what it is. You're saying more intense or less intense. Is it a failure? Is it a catastrophe or is it an inconvenience? Those are three different words with three different sets of emotions. I call it gradient language, but on each side of the room word is another way to say it less intense, more intense.Now you've got to ask yourself which way you want to go. Number two is pattern. We all have patterns in our life and you've got to ask yourself, like right now we have patterns we havewhat do we do? Realize when COVID first hit. I'm  personal responsibility, survivor type. Like I actually sadistically do really well during chaos.So when I'm playing hockey and a guy the other day got a blade cross his neck, I got a EMT, a plastic  three doctors and a lawyer. Everybody runs, but me and the plastic surgeon, the people that are used to blood, I go, you. Yeah. Even the referee didn't know what to do. You take your Jersey off, wrapped around his neck.You go call the ambulance right now. I do really well during chaos. So what's one of my patterns. So I've got to learn how do I selectively create chaos when I need it? Now, if you do not do good during chaos, you've got to then find a way to frame that differently yourself. So we've got language, we've got patterns.And number three is it's our state of being like, what state are we actually in? And I always know that a lot of times we try to fight through lowering your head and trying to get through your problems. The stupidest thing you can do. I always tell everyone, just give up. And the reason I say give up for an hour, give up for a day back in the day.And I didn't feel like working. I would go to Dave and Buster's, I could love video games. And the reason why is you're not going to do it, the reason you don't want to do it, if you were fearful, that's one thing. But if you've been in business eight, 10 years, and you're having a bad day, you're done, day's over.You're done. Don't go drink. I don't really, I'm not a drinker. I mean, if you want to drink,  I don't recommend drinking. It messes with the brain, but go do something, go play tennis, do an ice bath. Get that out of there. You need a clear perspective. You will not solve the problem inside of it. You've got to get into a different state.So Virginia city are one of my earliest mentors that I had. She's one of the people like the predecessors of NLP said, we've got three States. We've got decision making mode. Okay. We've got problem mode and we've got resource mode. But you can't make a decision unless you're in resource mode, but you won't be in resource mode when you're in the problems.So just imagine for a sec, I can get three cards in front of you. Like these are three napkins, but imagine one napkin said, problem. One napkin said solution, or a resource. And the other one said decision, and you put them out in front of you and go which mode I am, problem, resource and decision.And if you can't find. A, if you're in a problem, you need to very quickly get into a resourceful state. So you can make a decision and then you come back and solve the problem. And that's the one thing I gotta recognize learning how to become aware of that is how you get a Navy seals mentality. George:  Yeah, man, I love that those three modes it's actually similar to how Disney did it when they were doing business.They had three separate offices for ideation for the execution then for the critic.That, that same frame is really powerful and you and I are super alike and this has come up a lot in my life. Because I grew up in chaos, I then joined the Marine Corps for three combat deployments and I Excel.  it's somewhere hidden in the corner over here. I excelled in that, but then one of the things that you just said that really caught me off guard in a good way, and I think is going to be super helpful for me is there's a lot in my life where recognizing that pattern, I made that pattern wrong.That like, I was good under chaos, or I was good under pressure because I was framing it incorrectly. And you said knowing when to create that or when to turn that on. Um, so I dunno can you just expand on that for me? Because that one's super well to me, Michael, like I tend to subconsciously or unintentionally create chaos.Things will be good and I'll lob a bomb, right. Because then I'm comfortable or like somebody will talk to me. Give me feedback and it'll be completely nothing and I'll blow it out of perspective so I can win my way back. Cause I'm I thrive in that situation. Michael: But you like problems, you like solving things?George: Yes Michael: Okay. So there's a bunch of ways to, there's a bunch of ways to take this one on number one is we've got to realize that everything we do has a positive intention. That's one of my favorite beliefs and it's hard for people to accept that quitting is a good thing and procrastination is good. Some of you listen and go screw this guy.What'd you talk about. Quitting is good. Let me explain real quick. If you can quit little league, you can quit. You can  quit smoking when you get older, if you can procrastinate, which is a wonderful, full technique. How is procrastination? Good procrastination? Yeah, it's fantastic because if you can procrastinate over eating, you will be in better shape.Most people do not recognize the procrastination, quitting is positive things. So your ability to. Go into chaos and solve problems is a beautiful thing. When used appropriately would you, haven't learned how to do is understand the margins when to turn it on and when to turn it off. So here's the deal. If you need it to get going, I don't want you to get rid of it. Cause you'd get boring. I wouldn't like you anymore. You wouldn't be in town. If Mike Tyson didn't know how to work of a frenzy, he would never have been Mike Tyson. We would have never looked up to him. He would never be one of the greatest fighters in the world.No chance in hell. So we've got to learn how to do it. So the question is, do you know. How to turn it on. Yes. But do you know how to turn it off sooner than before it's too late? Like, do you know how to use it to your advantage and recognize what it is? George: No, not yet. Not yet like full, full disclosure. And like I guys on the pod we're going there. Cause I love Michael. I trust them inherently. So a lot of thousands of you get to listen to this live or, or when it's, when it's released. But no, for me I can turn it on now with all the right reasons and all the right parts. The margin. I blow out by a landslide and I don't see it until after, like, I haven't got the distinction of the awareness when I'm in the margin yet I missed the cues because I'm still, what, what I make up is I'm still, I have some unhealed trauma or I've just so far in it, like blinders on because I'm so comfortable, but also so afraid at the same time that I can't, I can't see those margins.  So, no, I haven't figured that out yet. Michael: Are you comfortable? Are you being effective?George: I'm comfortableMichael: Okay. Very good. So you're comfortable in the chaos? George: Yeah. Super comfortable. Michael: Okay. Very good. Very good. Okay. Are you uncomfortable when the chaos goes away? George: A lot of timesMichael: Okay, very good. Is it because you're bored and you like solving problems?  So you identify as a guy that likes to solve problems. Correct? George: I derived my vow. I've derived my value and worth from my ability to add value or solve something, which is the work that I do on spending time alone, because inherently I have a lot of codependent tendencies in nature due to my childhood. So I spent a lot of time alone working on being comfortable in that absenceness, or just by myself. Michael: Okay. So are you a codependent? Like, is that, is that like, is that a diagnosis? George: Yeah. Yeah, no, that was, that was a, yeah, that was a previous diagnosis. I've been through a couple of 12 step programs and all of that. So those were tendencies I had from my childhood in my trauma that have come into entrepreneurship. Well, and basically,, I'm super uncomfortable when there's no chaos. Michael: Okay. Was he uncomfortable? You don't know what to do. George: I don't know what to do. Okay. Michael: Those are two different things.  So let me just ask you again, are you uncomfortable or you don't know the next step? George: I don't know the next step. Okay.Michael: So do you know the difference between building and solving. well, tell me what you think the difference is. Cause those are words and they're interesting how words have meaning.  What's the difference between solving and the building?George: the difference between building and solving is,in a building would be the doing executing the task or the solution that you came up with solving. So solving would be ideating getting clarity, creating an outcome, and then building would be executing what you created that clarity on.Michael: Okay. So are you less comfortable in building something and more comfortable and solid? George: I am more comfortable in solving things. Yes. Michael: So no one really taught you how to build things. No. Okay. So bottom line is you don't have sophistication when it comes to building, but the thing you want revolves around building, so you really have a lack of understanding of building.  You really don't have a codependency issue. It's that building requires you to take responsibility for actually to build something. From scratch. So you like to build things or like it's a hallucination, the way you're building is you're building by solving a problem. So you like to hallucinate build versus what you really want is things to be sturdy, correct?George: YesMichael: Okay. So, um, so with that said, you've never looked at it that way.  So the issue you're having is no different than other people is it's not that things, aren't the way you want them to be. It's not that you like chaos so much. It's that. Chaos is comfortable and building is something you're not very familiar with, but what happens when you decide to get good at something and dedicate your time to it?  What happens? George:  go hard in the paint all the way.Michael:  What does that mean? George: Um, just tangible examples. Like I want it to be good at golf. So I got down to three handicap. I want it to Scott out of a thousand jumps in a year and a half. I wanted to scuba dive. So became a dive master rescue diver in a week and a half. Like I, I just tend to go all the way. Got it hard.Michael: So this is just an area that you've never actually applied yourself yet. George: Yes. Yes. And it comes up everywhere. It comes up primarily in interpersonal relationships.Michael: So do you believe possibly, and I had thrown you out there on your show will help you out with this. You had some challenges as a kid on sounds like parental stuff. I don't know your whole back story. There's some stuff, mom, dad, different types of things. Challenges does that, whatever, blah, blah, blah, whatever. Yeah. We'll leave that where it belongs. We'll let the therapist handle that. But the point is.What I realized, and we stunt our growth. We think we can't grow and we like to protect versus grow. So my question is, what if you did, when I said, and you thought about this, like, what is the, what are you capable of today? Like, this is the question that I asked Brad. And I asked you what can you do from the position you're in?Like, what could you, you build, like, if you were to be outside of you and hire you, what could that guy do? George: If I was to be outside of me and hire me, what could he do?Michael: stories without the like, cause you hired you, you would, that person wouldn't show up with the drama and the stories and the diagnosis they would show up with the ability,  So you would never hear about it. Like if you hired them and you paid you 150,000 bucks a year to accomplish a job, what job could that guy do? George: Yeah. So applicably in my business right now could write the curriculum for my mastermind could record the seven video ads could develop the email strategy for the next three months in a matter of an hour..Michael: Okay. That guy can do that. Yes, it may. Cause you would hire that guy to build. So the question is, have you put this person in the right job? What you have this person doing in the Marines? There's there's like the commander, there's the nightwatchman,there's the guard. There's PT duty.There's, you know, cutting potatoes. Like what job did you sign yourself up for? Like, what is your automatic job that you're signed up for? Is it protector as a builder? I think you forgot that you how to protect yourself right now. You know how to use a weapon, you know how to use your hands, you know, self-defense or badass.I think he forgot that you could stop protecting because you've already got that part down. And I think you need to flip into a different mode, which means your identity needs to shift. And I think you just forgot to update your operating system. You're operating off of an LG. What was that thing? Back in the day, you're operating off the old razor phone. Remember the razor? The star tech and you forgot, do you have an iPhone X, Y for seven six, and you realize you've already got production protection. 99% of the world would never want to get into an altercation with you physically or verbally. Yeah. So you've already got protection down. I think we could put that off to the side and we can go into building mode.And I think a lot of people can get out of lockdown mode. And a lot of people can get out of worry mode and we can start going into building. And I think we're just a little bit behind. George: Yeah, man. I'm actually, I have tears welling upMichael: I know I can see it. I love you. That's why I'm doingGeorge: And this is why I have people like you in my life. Cause I could coach this by Stefano. It's all the time I talk about this all the timeand the distinct and I love it.  I'm, I'm protecting and it's this interesting thing and it almost seems like a conundrum to me because I say like, I. I'm comfortable in the chaos. And then but when I'm in it and it motivates me, then I'll protect myself even more. Cause it gives me some semblance of safety. Michael: So you value value, protection massively, don't you?George: I do. I do. Michael: And when you value protection, you protect every aspect, you protect your finances. You don't want to lose things. You worry about stuff, all that kind of stuff, but here's the thing. Nobody could pay you to stop being a protective person. It's who you are. It's your soul. So you could actually stop trying to do it. You'll do it automatically. What if you were to take it down 20% and not even try to do it anymore?Fuck it. I'm just gonna put it off to the side. I'm done protecting. I'm gonna focus on building. I think for the next six to eight months, I'll always be a protector cause that's who I am innately and it'll show up as I need it. Well, let me ask you a question. You've never attempted to shift your identity, right?George: Oh, I have a lot. Michael: You moved it to something like building versus protecting.George: Yeah. That's why we have a podcast. Took me nine years. Michael: I get it. But have you ever said that to yourself? Very simply that you know what, I'm going to shift my perspective. I don't need to worry about protecting you.George: No, I've never, I've never used language to do that.  Or like made that declaration. Yeah. Michael: I wouldn't, I would give it a shot. I believe you've already done it. I see it leaning forward and how simple it is to do, but I'll tell you that you've got a venue you're automatically going to be a protector, like automatically every one of you is going to be an entrepreneur. You need to stop trying to be an entrepreneur. I need to stop building something. Stop trying to prove to people you're an entrepreneur and start building something that works. So anyways, that's just a side note on everything. I can't solve everything in one, one.George: I think. I, I, I actually think it's super, super powerful, not even a side note, like just the main, the main, it's a massive, main vein for me.And I know it's out there a lot because like, as you even said that, and you're talking about like me being the protector, I also will intentionally default to it. Out of, uh, out of the fear of growth, right? Because that creates vulnerable. And I don't know what it looks like and I have to build, and  it's like I've had these opportunities to declare myself a builder and, but I will only declare myself a builder in that container in which I think I can control.And what you're saying is very powerful for me. It's very, very powerful. I think it's powerful across the board. Like when you think about this and COVID and everything like,  I'm super, super excited, grounded and emotional in this moment and present because this is the narrative of my life and it applies everywhere.AndI do this work all the time and. You know, there's parts of my eye. A lot of the times I even, I even call the work hard. Like I make the work hard because I'm like, look how hard I can do it. Look, I'm protecting look. And it's just recreating all these patterns from, you know, the abuse as a kid, the sexual abuse, the physical abuse, the death in the Marine Corps, all that stuff and I've never intentionally Michael: shifted the identity, like it to be hard as you get em, You get more validation when it's hard, because thousand percent of that you could do something. And we love things to be difficult. That's what entrepreneurs sadistic. We like things to be hard. And I can only speak to this because I understand and I've been through it.We want it to be hard cause we feel like we'll get a double reward or a double validation. Wake up. Call is this. You don't get extra credit for being harder. Okay. A win is a win is a win is a win. It depends where you're at. So if you're a basketball or hockey or football, whatever it is, when you win, you won.Whether you beat a good team or not good team, a WCW.A win is a win. We think we get extra credit for doing something more difficult. That's our ego talking. So for a lot of people, we want to find that instead of realizing your job in life, if it's defined to make your life easier than it is not to make it more complicated.So the reason you're doing it is, and then I'm going to explain it, whether you're trying to impress your dad or you're trying to show some how tough you are. Prove a point, whatever. Finally get loved that you never got whatever that story is. And the reason why I hear people starting to use the word trauma, I think about that.It's like that word is so debilitating in a lot of ways, because trauma means permanent scar that cannot be gotten rid of bottom line is like, when I talk about AA, a lot of times, I always say it's step 13 is missing. And step 13 is after you've been sober three, four, five years. Step 13 is I used to live a way that didn't work for me.It's a better way to put it. Step 13 is declaring. I used I'm different now. And really owning that instead of I'm an alcoholic, you've been over 50 freaking years. You don't need to declare an alcoholic at 50 years sober. I think you'll be okay. You've been sober more than you've been drunk, but the point is, and I don't mean no disrespect.They've been around bill W's program for a long time. I don't drink myself, but the point is the why I'm bringing this up to you and why it's important is. Is understanding that we need to leave that where it was, you are not that person anymore. And that's a big piece of the puzzle. A lot of us have to realize it's not March anymore.We're not in lockdown anymore. We just have a different world than the one we had prior and we need to accept things. Aren't the way I want them to be. How long am I going to cry? And then we gotta move on.George: Yeah, man. Yeah. Thank you for that.Michael: I don't know what that does, but it does something good. George: Yeah, of course it does. I mean, I, and just so everybody know, watching or listening, we're on video and I know Michael really well, so I know he's watching everything I do with my body, like leaning in and do it. And this is his absolute mastery, but Michael, one of the things for me is what that simplified for me is I've been in this game for a long time doing this work and having it.And it really always comes down to the simplicity of it. Right. It really, really, we're not getting an extra trophy, but even that just simply really plugging in or, or putting myself into one of those mindsets to observe and see where I am and then creating a different mode is powerful.One thing I did want to ask about, and I think that this is, you said this earlier, but I think it's, it was prevalent for me. So I know it's probably prevalent for other people. When I started as an entrepreneur, my drive for success was to prove I could be it right. I could prove I could do it.And then I made it. And then I kept that belief and I lost a lot of it again, because I felt like I'd lost the fuel. And then a lot of the times for the years, like I was like driven by insecurity. I was driven by fear. I was driven by external validation. And then, you know, there are times in my life where I've been grounded and present and not really knowing how to value myself.And I was afraid and I've had moments of like, in those moments, I don't know what to do. Right. Like what do I do? Where do I go? And. You know, we talked about it with building, but I just think, I don't know. I just don't think this topic is talked about enough in entrepreneurship because it's so easy to live in the hustle culture.That should be cancelled culture. And I just think it needs to be talked about more. So, yeah, I don't, I dunno. I dunno if you have any other thoughts on that. Cause when you said it earlier, you're like, you know, we build something to do it, but then you don't change your identity. Like, Oh, you wanted to create financial freedom, then you did it.You wanted to do this, then you did it. And the thing that I struggled with is that. When I was in those moments.When I started to shift, I felt like I had no fuel. Like, I felt like I had no energy because I didn't know the outcome or the clarity, and I wasn't trying to prove anything anymore. And so I felt, I took me six months, by the way. Like when I walked away from a company before I like really got into flow again, it was like six months of going to Dave and Buster's, this was a 2016, 2016 when I walked away from.Michael: And that's the part people don't get that's okay. We live in this world. We think we have to push all the time. You don't have to be on all the time. That's the part. Most people don't get. You do not have to be on it all the time. so when I talk about this, your original reason for going into business, that's the reason I love that question. I ask people that they tell me, and then I look at them and go, have you achieved that already? Okay, great. Are you willing to stand on top of that now? And build from there. You can always go back that or be willing to stand on. The fact you've already pulled that off. Our reasons for things change. I'll give you an example. Like I had trouble exercising and my mid thirties couldn't figure out why I couldn't do it.I'm an athlete. My whole life played hockey, male life gain in some way, not feeling good. Why can't I exercise? And I realized my original reason for going to the gym was a 16 year, 15 year old boy. I was playing ice hockey, wanted to defend myself. I wanted to impress women. I wanted to look good and I wanted to what was the other reason? I, my buddies did it. And then I'm 35 years old. I don't have any buddies that work out with Madison. I have that right now. I'm going to get a kid, right? Nothing going on there. I attracting other, women's not a good idea when you're married. It's most people that's probably not recommended. We're gonna avoid that.Some people are into that. That's not our thing. I'm beating people up. You go to jail,  when you do that at that point in life. So I couldn't do it. Work out to me, meant something. I say, I'm going to do that. I don't do so in my head, I said, let's go to language. And I started training for a Spartan race.Think of a different spin word train, which is a fresh new word I've never used before. And then there's the word workout. Most people, the word entrepreneur needs to never be used again. I know you want to impress people by it. It means you work hard. It means you think you're special. Stop thinking you're special.It's your issue? Entrepreneur leader leads to the death graveyard of impossibilities and burnout, right? Leads that Gary Vee grind and hustle. I don't want us freaking life making a video every day of the week. I never seen his kids unless he's got a system I don't have. The dude's obsessed with working.George: Glad I'm not the only one that said this. Cause I've said this publicly before, I'm like, well, training your children. That work is more important than them because you never see them. Michael: Yeah. I've been realizing this now. Like I'm working my ass off during this stuff and my kids are home more. I'm like, damn, I, I. I'm not liking, maybe even what I set up for myself. So maybe we need to stopstop calling an entrepreneurship, stop calling a business owners. Cause our connection to those is hard work. Would you does require to get started? I'm talking to the guy, that's been a girl that's been in the game five to seven to 10 years, 15 years, 20 years.I'm not talking to the new newbie, crush it, kill it. Go work as hard as you can get moving for the people that have been in the game a long time. Maybe we need to revaluate what we even call ourselves instead of realizing. I'm building something that allows me to do this, that I'm not a business owner I'm seeking out opportunity.I don't want to be cheesy about it, but like when I ask what your original reason for going to business was to impress people or to prove a point, then you're a decade later, you're looking to do the same thing you've got to, we've got to mature past that. So the part of that is re languaging. It is.So I went from working out to training and now training is not hard. It's something I worked towards and it's got a target. Now I train my body in my mind. George: Well, when it comes back to what we talked about in the beginning, like, what is the first step it's having an outcome, like a clear outcome and you know, back in the day, do personal development, it was like, you, you can't hit your new destination when you're staring at the back of the boat, right?Like you're just going to sink the Titanic. And I went through something similar, by the way, in my mid thirties about like the fitness. Cause I went from this hard Marine CrossFit competitor to all of a sudden I was like, hating the gym, not getting up, eating like crap. And it was, I wasn't, I was trying to out-train my past instead of like, Looking at something that I wanted to accomplish.And I think at super they're what Mike McCollough, cause it, you might appreciate this. He says you're never allowed to call yourself an entrepreneur for the same reasons, call yourself a shareholder. He's like, because your performance and your payment is directly tied to the success of your company, where your hands are in.And I think it's a really, really novel point.to not own those labels and to not carry those around. Right. And so that one was distinction for me. That's funny because I've probably met 300 people since I read that book and I've said like, Oh, what are you doing? An entrepreneur? Ah, I'm a shareholder.And they're like, all right. And I still correct myself and it feels like the word entrepreneur is like toxic tongue for me at this point. And I haven't like broken the habit because it was a really powerful label for me. I was like, look, I'm the only person in my family that didn't end up on drugs dead or in an addiction facility.And I own things. And so, you know, like there was a part of me until probably 36 years old that just wanted, when anybody from home, like people, I don't talk to her. If that magical Facebook friend adds me 25 years later and they ask her, see what I do. I'm like, look, I fucking made it. I showed you. And. At the same time.It wasn't really doing anything for me. I wasn't spending more time Michael: Here's the cool part. This is why I married the right woman. My wife would look at me. Of course, you made something now, what are you going to do? So that's, my wife would say, so if you, if you actually saw you for what you were you wouldn't be impressed by what you've done yet.George: Five, seven Michael: big. Do you play George: about six 10? Michael: You sure. Are you sure? You're not playing five one compared to other people? You're sure you're not playing five one. Compared to what you're capable of in your heart, how big you play, and maybe you got it wrong  Are you at sales? How good are you at sales?George: Really good. Michael: Okay. Compared to Bobby Axelrod and billions, how good are you at sales? Geoge: On a scale of one to 10? Like a three.Michael: Okay. So my question is why do we keep on telling ourselves we're tens? Our biggest issue in life is we think we're great. That's our biggest fuck-up.George: Why are you the greatest in the world? That language. Michael: One of the greatest and that that's a specific marketing. Kidding. I'd love you and I, what? No, let, let let's, let's let's really play with that for a minute. I leave that for marketing purposes and for belief systems, but then I'd have to regulate myself so that I know I just said that, but I need to get you to own that total at the boutique, in the area of my life.So now here's the deal I've been working on it 20 years. You know what I mean? I've been at this a long time, 23 years old. I started in 43 next week. The point is, the point is why I'm bringing this up is you got to realize all of us, I sat down with a sales guy, how good are you at sales? He goes, I'm great.What'd you make? Last year? I made 92,000. Great compared to how much you want to make. How good are you? I guess I'm not that great. So the point is if all of us recognize we're not as good as we think we are your day or life changes. Is when you accept, you're not where you want to be. Yeah. That is the most beautiful thing.So I learned that you live in the life you have when you were in the Marines that I don't want to do this anymore. You said I don't want to be here anymore. What else do I want to be? An entrepreneur? Never thought it through. Started building a box, made an identity. I'm an entrepreneur. I struggle got some people that are gonna cheer you on.You built your box. I call it your average. You built this box for your life, but everything you want is outside of it. So there's three ways to get where you want to go. I'll give it to you. Real simple. Number one, build a ladder. Get out of where you're at. It's very hard, but build a ladder. Good luck.Learning how to build a ladder with any wood. Number two, lower your head, try to get through the wall. That's what we do. Doesn't work. Number three, let somebody help you very hard. And number four is outgrow the wall and how you outgrow it is by working on becoming honest. And here's why I say this is if you actually would look in the mirror and yeah, I'm not as good as I think I am and I'm okay.Actually capable of, but I'm actually capable of 10 times more. That gives you room to grow and it makes unlimited possibilities and massive insecurity in the same breath. But how cool is that? Your insecurity is that you're capable. You just don't know how, and then all you gotta do is figure out how to grow again. That's my, that's my excitement.George: No, I love it. And two things cause everybody listening Michael, I've spent a lot of time in person together and I love going back and forth, but  in full disclosure, there's a lot of times that I hang my current value on my past achievement. And that keeps me small.And it keeps me in that box of average or comfortable. And so like, I love this conversation. I appreciate it because there's been some big shifts even as of late, like different levels of noticing that and where I can improve. And it's funny because for the first time ever, I've brought an outside help, like four people better than me and all of these areas that are helping me get there, coaching me and building with me.But one of the things that you just said, and you said this earlier, and it's been an open loop for me that I want to close.  One of the things that I caught subtly is when you were talking about, about language. I forgot the two words you used, but you just used another one of insecurity.And my immediate go to is noticing how there's no negative meaning on the word. It means opportunity. It means possibility. And there were two other ones you used earlier, too. But even in that moment, I found myself when you said insecurity getting uncovered from like, Oh, I don't want to be insecure.I'm like, no, I do, because it's Michael: what is insecure on country. Think of the word. Let's just go to the word. Let's think all the meaning out of it. What does it mean insecure? I'm not secure about it yet. I

“Whoever said, do what you love, the money will come, they got that right. Lots of work, mind you, in between. As we like to say, your passions determine your purpose. But it's your decisions that determine your destiny.” - Michael Wilkinson I’m pleased to have Michael Wilkinson here with me today for Episode 9 of the Control the Room Podcast. Michael is the CEO and Managing Director of Leadership Strategies, the largest provider of professional facilitation in the country. Michael, who grew up in the projects as what his sister described as a “Sesame Street Gangster,” eventually found himself at a New England prep school through an opportunity found through his job as a paperboy. After turning down an acceptance to Harvard Business School, Michael abandoned his 10-year plan to become undersecretary of Housing and Urban Development to begin a “faith-walk” that ultimately ended in his founding Leadership Strategies. In today’s episode, Michael and I talk about his path to the International Association of Facilitators Hall of Fame, what makes a facilitator great, and the six P’s of preparing for a meeting. Listen in to find out how Michael identifies and trains facilitators with great potential and how to ask the right questions in meetings. Show Highlights [1:38] Michael’s childhood in the projects of D.C. [5:39] Michael’s path to facilitation [10:30] What makes a great facilitator [17:17] Human connection in a virtual environment [26:07] Generating engagement when facilitating virtually [28:58] The only 3 reasons people disagree [35:16] The Six P’s of preparing for a meeting [40:56] Kumbaya facilitators [42:45] Asking the right questions [50:03] Leadership Strategies’ resources for facilitators Links | Resources Michael on LinkedIn Leadership Strategies Website About the Guest Michael Wilkinson is the CEO and Managing Director of Leadership Strategies, a leadership training and strategy consulting firm that specializes in group facilitation. He is also the author of books such as Secrets of Facilitation, Facilitating Strategy, and CLICK: The Virtual Meetings Book. In 2016, Michael was awarded a place in the International Association of Facilitators Hall of Fame. About Voltage Control Voltage Control is a facilitation agency that helps teams work better together with custom-designed meetings and workshops, both in-person and virtual. Our master facilitators offer trusted guidance and custom coaching to companies who want to transform ineffective meetings, reignite stalled projects, and cut through assumptions. Based in Austin, Voltage Control designs and leads public and private workshops that range from small meetings to large conference-style gatherings.  Share An Episode of Control The Room Apple Podcasts Spotify Android Stitcher Engage Control The Room Voltage Control on the Web Contact Voltage Control Intro: Welcome to the Control the Room Podcast, a series devoted to the exploration of meeting culture and uncovering cures for the common meeting. Some meetings have tight control, and others are loose. To control the room means achieving outcomes while striking a balance between imposing and removing structure, asserting and distributing power, leaning in and leaning out, all in the service of having a truly magical meeting. Douglas: Today I'm with Michael Wilkinson. Michael is the CEO and managing director of Leadership Strategies, Inc., a leadership training and strategy consulting firm specializing in group facilitation. Michael is the author of the bestselling The Secrets of Facilitation, and most recently, Click: The Virtual Meetings Book. Welcome to the show, Michael. Michael: It is my pleasure, Douglas, and thank you for introducing me to your audience. Douglas: Absolutely. It's a pleasure to have you. And I guess, speaking of the audience, I think they'd love to hear how you got started in this amazing work of facilitation. Michael: Well, as you know, because you've been there, and many who are facilitators know, there is no front door to facilitation. It's not like you can go to college and go, “I want a degree in facilitation.” Most people enter through the back door. The major entry ways, many come through H.R. Others come through the processing-quality side. Some come through the I.T., the consulting side; from the D&I, diversity-inclusion side. I was on the I.T. side. So I was one of those kids—in fact, if you back up my story a little bit, I'm a projects kid. I grew up in the projects of D.C.. So for those who know D.C., back in the day, Anacostia, the worst neighborhood in D.C., and I have to confess, at six, I was one of those bad kids, where we’re stealing from the local grocery store. Remember the corner grocery stores that used to exist? We would—and this is really bad—we would, at six years old, we were tying kids to trees and leaving them out all night. I mean, it was before gangs were gangs. My sister called this the Sesame Street Gangsters. It was just not good. And by the time I got to seven, we moved from what I call lower-lower class—the projects of D.C.—to lower-middle class, out in what’s today is Suitland, Maryland. And at that time, and people who believe that place doesn't matter, place absolutely matters. The kids in that neighborhood, they were building clubhouses. They had a chess club. And so me and my brothers, we started doing what they started doing. Even got a paper route, if you can remember the old paper boys, where you deliver papers. Had two paper routes, making money for my family. And the change, the big change, in life came when, at 14, the Post building, the Washington Post, sponsored interviews for private schools, and any of the carriers could come for an interview. I got interviewed, got accepted to a couple of the really big private schools in New England, started going to this New England prep school. My graduating class, 50 people, 50 people in the graduating class, including—and you won't know these names unless you were into that movement—but the Wares of Long Island, Paula Ware; General Patton's grandson, the Stacks of Greenwich is—do you remember all superlatives in the yearbook, “first to make a million”? Well, we had a superlative, “already has a million,” and there were two names. These are trust-fund kids. But I had gotten pulled into that environment. And as a senior, I did a study of grades and test scores. I was a psych major at the time. So a correlation in prep school of the—and I got the grades and test scores of my graduating class. Of course, the registrar stripped off the names, but he left them in alphabetical order, Douglas, so it was too hard to find Wilkinson. And to say my test scores were lower would be true, but an understatement. I was so much lower than the next lower person, I clearly took someone's place. Talk about affirmative action, they reached out and got me. They were looking for a black kid, and I was the only black kid in my graduating class. But I graduated fifth in the class, which means it wasn't really fair that I took someone's place. But it also wasn't fair that I hadn't had the preparation that all the other kids did. So once I got it, I just excelled. Went off to a New England prep school, and I came out. I was going to be undersecretary of Housing and Urban Development. I had a 10-year plan—even back then, Douglas, I was a planner—a 10-year plan to become undersecretary of Housing and Urban Development. I was going to go back to Harvard Business School. I’d gotten accepted. I’d asked for a two-year deferment. Decided I wanted to work for two years in D.C. so I could see how Washington worked and how the different agencies worked. And somewhere along the line, got the spiritual thing. So I'm a son of a minister, so I got really clear on getting directed from the Spirit, and had that what we call the bathroom experience, the second major shift in life. So they’re actually the third. The first, of course, was moving out of the projects. The second, getting the scholarship to go to New England boarding school. The third was hearing in the shower, from out of nowhere, “Michael, if your most important relationship is your relationship with Me, how is going to Harvard Business School going to help you do that?” There you go. There's 10-year plan down the drain, Douglas. So ended up, I quit my job, I told Harvard I wasn’t coming, and went on a six-month faith walk, where just—and things are great when you do a faith walk, Douglas, where these things are great 29 days out of the month. It's when that rent is due, that’s when things get really hairy. But it was one of the most important times of my life and learned some really important lessons. And the most important one, because I was asking, “Okay, God, you don't want me to do this 10-year plan. It was clearly my plan. Well, what do You want me to do? You want me to become a minister? You want me to go off on a mountain and contemplate my navel. Do You want me to stand on the corner and say, ‘Have you asked, talked about, thought about God today?’” And I got that direction, and a really important direction, that each of us is called to ministry. Ministry is service. That's what it's called for. Some people, it takes the form of the pulpit. For other people, it takes another form. Facilitation is my ministry. I ended up facilitating, 1985 is my first official facilitated session, in a session where we were doing requirements analysis, and it was going south. Vendor was presenting, just going all over the place. I was the youngest kid in the room. We have, you know, the consultants. I was with Ernst and Young, the youngest consultant on the team, but nobody was stepping up. So I just got up and said, “You know what, let’s structure this a little differently.” And so here with the client people, with our own consultants, and with this vendor, restructured the conversation and led it for that three hours going forward. Afterwards, someone said, “That was a great facilitated session.” Douglas, I was like, “What? What are you talking about? What's this thing called…” I had no idea. And then when they explained it to me, I said, “Oh, yeah. It's easy. Everybody is good at it.” And that's where I learned everybody was not good at this thing called facilitation that I had been gifted with some natural talents that made me instinctively good at it. And so I started doing it, started facilitating for my church, started facilitating for the nonprofit associations I was a part of. And then the fourth major shift in life came. This is the call that actually changed my trajectory again. Connie Bergeron—I remember. It was March 1991. She called and said, “Hey, we're looking for a facilitator. I've just been named head of Meeting Professionals International for the Atlanta chapter. I'm getting my officers together for a retreat. It's going to be on this particular weekend. Would you facilitate it for me?” I looked over my calendar, Douglas, and said, “Sure. I'd be glad to.” And, again, she said the words that changed my life, “And we’ll pay you.” Really? I mean, I was willing to do it for free because it’s fun. So she paid me. It was great. Two months later she called me back. Mentioned the pay word again. Three months later called me back. It was November of 1992, 1992, yes. I was, at that point, 18 months from becoming a partner at Ernst and Young. I turned to them, Douglas, and said, “I'm having way more fun on the weekends than I'm having during the week,” and left and started Leadership Strategies, the facilitation company. Do you like to say world headquarters, our second bedroom, which is great. Big plans, but just getting started. And it has been an amazing blessing. Today, we're the largest provider of professional facilitation across the country. We have 600 facilitators under contract. We have a core team of 27 facilitators. We've trained 28,000 people in facilitation skills; written six books on facilitation, the two you mentioned and four others. It is crazy. Here's this kid from the projects, and it's been just amazing blessing. Whoever said, do what you love, the money will come, they got that right. Lots of work, mind you, in between. As we like to say, your passions determine your purpose. But it's your decisions that determine your destiny. And so it was just a bunch of decisions that helped me along the way. And it's been just a tremendous blessing. Anyway, long story, but thought your listeners might enjoy understanding, how did I get here? because it's been a crazy, crazy ride. Douglas: Yeah. I mean, wow, impressive. And, you know, I think most facilitators can relate to this kind of moment of—well, kind of two moments that you described—the moment where you start to—these kind of natural talents start to click. You know, for me, it was always, I always found myself in meetings where people were disagreeing, but really they were saying the same thing but just in different ways, or they thought they were agreeing but they were saying different things. And I always had to interject and say, “Hold on for a second. I think you're saying this and you’re saying this,” and they're both nodding their heads. And then they stop for a second and realize that they were saying different things. And that happened enough and enough and enough that I realized that, man, that's something that I'm not seeing enough out of other people. And so I think that's something that's a hallmark of a facilitator, when you realize that in meetings, there's something about what you're observing or the way things are unfolding that really align with this ability to help move things forward in a natural and productive way. So I think— Michael: You really have touched on something that’s really important, and many facilitators may know it or not know it. When we were doing training early on, I was recognizing that there were people who were learning the techniques but missing some things that were going to make them a great facilitator, even though they knew all the same stuff that others knew or that we were training other people in. And I realized, and you put it well, that we talk about now seven key characteristics to look for. And people ask us, “Hey, we've purchased your training class. We're going to have a training for 16 people. How do I choose the 16 people in the class?” And we tell them, “Here's some target characteristics to look for.” We talk about seven, and we tell them, “Really it's three that's really important. And oh, by the way, the first two we can do nothing about.” So those three, just quickly, one is you got to like people, right? If you don’t like people, this is not something you should be doing, because people give you lots of reasons not to like them. So you really have to have a starting point, where you really like people. Two, you have to be able to process information quickly because there's so much coming and your mind has to be listening and processing at the same time and being able to differentiate, yeah, this is the same as that. This is different from this. This is…while you're listening, being able to process that. And if you can't process quickly, really, all you're going to be is a meeting manager. And great facilitators are way more than meeting managers because they're able to capture the spirit of a group; help engage them; and help guide them; can see down the road and around the corner, see the car or the truck that's coming that they're about to crash into, long before they're getting there, because they're processing while stuff is going on. So clearly, you have this skill, and then could recognize, a lot of people don’t, “Well done, sir. Applauding you. Well done.” Douglas: Well, yeah. You know, it's funny. I don't know how many times you've been speaking with someone that's maybe interested in learning facilitation or even a prospect or whatnot, and it turns out they're conflating facilitator and moderator. And I think that's maybe the big—and I think when you say meeting manager, it's all in that same bucket of, like, not facilitator. Michael: Yes. And it really, I mean, it really is because there are some people, people who are great speakers, think, “Okay, I'd be a good facilitator.” People who are great trainers, “Wow. I could be a good facilitator.” And we say, okay, let's separate this, because, as you know, facilitation has got convoluted with a bunch of stuff. So ATD, the Association for Talent Development, uses the name facilitator for trainers. And that's fine. Training facilitators, that's good. We can infer very much. But we are more group facilitators. In our business, it’s kind of interesting because what we find is in general, this isn’t completely true, but in general, our best trainers are extroverts. Our best group facilitators are introverts. One of my people who worked for us many years, she said something to me one day, and it's like, this capsulizes it well. She said, “You know, Michael, I like facilitating, but I really love training.” I said, “Okay, Leslie, I'll bite. Why do you really love training?” She said, “Well, when you're facilitating, you really have to listen to them.” And there you go. Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding. You get where I get that? Really rings the bell of why introverts, who are, really, they value listening and processing a lot more than extroverts, who generally like expressing. And so if you generally like expressing, you may find that training is way more your passion than facilitating, where you're really listening, contemplating, and helping a group move in a direction and so on. Interesting, yes? Douglas: Yes. And, you know, I can find that really fascinating because usually we like to pair up someone who’s kind of a classical trainer— Michael: Yes. Douglas: —and has that air, that performance aspect with a facilitator in these training sessions, because then that person can put on the dog-and-pony show while the facilitator is making sure that learning's integrated, because if you're not listening and working with them, you don't know if it stuck. Michael: And so what's interesting, I’m going to take you a step further, and I'm really biased here, that I really think we figured out in our company or we'll wait to think about how to make training work, because we don't hire trainers to train people in facilitation. We hire facilitators to train people in facilitation because they understand and role model all the techniques. But then we teach them about how important it is, with one of our eight principles in our facilitation course, all has to do with energy and keeping the energy high because that's one of the hallmarks of our practice. So we have to be able to, we call it show time. As an introvert, I get my energy from within, and people often are surprised when they see me do my thing, and then at the end of it, it’s like I’m the thumb in the mouth. I need a blankie. It happened twice before I realized this was a bad idea, Douglas. Clients who, when I was about, I was going to facilitate a two-day training session. Let’s say it started on a Tuesday. The client said, “Hey. Why don’t you fly in Monday night, meet with the team, they’ll get to know you, and then we’ll get started Tuesday morning?” Douglas, I did that twice. I’d never do that again, never, ever, ever, because what happens is, because I'm a natural introvert, when they meet me Monday night, the side conversations. “This is our facilitator? Really?” because— Douglas: We got a meeting with this guy all day? Michael: —I’m quiet. I’m just, that’s who I am. But once I—I'm glad we meet with them Tuesday night, because after that, they've already seen me. And now they're asking me the questions, not looking for me to entertain them, because I'm not an extrovert. I’m an introvert. So very different. So it's what we do in order to make it work. Douglas: Well, and nowadays we're in the midst of a pandemic. So all the team dinners are a thing of the past. Michael: Well, actually, actually, think about it. It really is. We still need—the social engagement is central. And so we as facilitators have to recognize, how do we make that happen, even in a virtual environment? And so we do that. So we may have this session from eight to five, and then we have a virtual cocktail hour for everyone. We break for 30 minutes, everyone grabs their favorite drinks, and we have a virtual cocktail hour for 30 minutes, an hour, as we would if it was a real session. But it's an important piece, so we can't miss it. That's for sure. Douglas: Yeah. And the human connection is so, so critical. Michael: How are you all doing it in your business? How are you keeping the human connection going during this? Douglas: Man, you know, I think it's always been a part of the design. And I think as long as it's a focus as a guiding principle, when you're designing an agenda for a session, it'll find its way in. I think it's important to start there first, right? Michael: Oh, it always helps. Douglas: Yeah, yeah. And I love this notion of the cocktail hour. Everyone has demanding schedules in this virtual space, right? And so they might have kids to run off to— Michael: Absolutely. Douglas: —or they’ve slotted it in. And it's a lot different than, you know, having taken the effort to drive somewhere and like, “Okay, I’m here. Maybe I’ll just stick around for a little bit longer.” We always just make it clear that, okay, the plenary is done; we're going to be around a little bit longer because I know some people like to stick around. Because I like to refer to it as, you know whenever you're cleaning up the supplies, people stick around and ask you questions? Michael: Yes, yes, yes, yes. Douglas: In virtual, there are no supplies. You can just shut MURAL and Miro or whatever off, and we’re done. Michael: We’re done. Bye. Douglas: So I like to tell people, “All right. Well, now we're cleaning up, and we'll be around for a little bit longer. If you want to ask any questions, we'll be here. But don't feel like you have to stay if you have places to be.” Michael: That’s a great idea. Douglas, I’m writing that down. “Hey, we’re going to have a clean up or stick-around time for those who…” I like that. You’ll see a blog about that soon. I like that. Courtesy of Douglas. Douglas: I love the cocktail-hour notion, too. It's like, I'm just making sure we reserve that time for people. In fact, it was BBC released a report, and the headline was quite hilarious. It was like, “Research Finds That Most Meetings Are a Form of Therapy,” or “Most Meaningless Meetings Are a Form of Therapy.” And the point was, and you hear that and you're like, “Well, that seems kind of crazy,” but it's kind of interesting because it's like people gravitate toward having these meaningless meetings, these meetings that nothing comes out of them because they have this need to have connection. And so if you think about it, if we get really intentional about our connection during meetings and plan them in, then people don't have to plan these extraneous things that then waste time. Michael: Well done. Well done. And we think that the pandemic has changed a lot of things. Unfortunately, one thing it hasn't changed is poor meetings. In fact, they've gotten poorer in the sense that with this virtual thing that people actually think that, well, because it's a virtual meeting, it takes less preparation or because it's—and we are finding, just as in our training work, we've converted virtual sessions where maybe 5 percent, 4 percent of our business prior to the pandemic, now it’s 95 percent. And our facilitators are finding it’s way more work, whether it’s a virtual meeting or virtual training, way more work to prepare for it. Way more. And the key is, we call it the virtual details, that where before you would have, okay, let's say we have a process-improvement session. And so we're going to start with (a) introduction; then section (b) we're going to talk about how does that process work today? Let's say we're trying to fix the hiring process in the company; (c) we're going to talk about the problems and causes; (d) we're going to brainstorm potential solutions; (e) we're going to reformat the process; (f) we're going to put together implementation plan; and so on. Well, that's what we'd do if it was face to face. We'd go, okay, (b) here's what I'm going to do with the flip charts. I'm going to set them up. And we know instinctively to do that. Virtual, whole different world. We say with each of those agenda items, do what you normally would do. But you also have to figure out the virtual details. So (b) you know what, I'm going to do a poll; action (c) I'm going to use the whiteboard; action (d) I'll do annotations; (e) I'm going to use a breakout group with…and then we… So we teach a course now called the Zoom Plus. And what that is, is everyone is now using Zoom, and you know wow. All those people, Zoom meetings, they're not even using all the basic Zoom stuff. Annotation, whiteboard, breakout groups, and so on. So we show them. And we like to say, “We are going to play with the technique so that you do it. You’ll play with them. Then, we're going to take the camera and put it behind the facilitator so that you can see how the facilitator creates the polls, how the facilitator creates the breakout rooms, and then you're going to do it.” So that’s using the basic stuff. And then, Zoom Plus, the plus part of that is we then show them what our facilitators do. And these are 15 virtual-engagement strategies, things like rotating flip charts. How do you use—how do you have the groups rotate through? Last person standing, dump and clump, and all these other advanced engagement strategies, using them, doing them, and doing them virtually. All cool stuff. So we first tried to get them using the basics, which most people aren't using. And then we're showing them, here’s how you use the advanced strategies that will make your meetings absolutely stand out. And people, as we like to say, you know you've gotten there when you hear people go, wow, that was the best virtual meeting I ever attended. And unfortunately, as you can imagine, Douglas, it's easy to be the best, because most are so poor and boring. Douglas: The bar is so low. So low. Michael: It is. Exactly. You’ve had the experience. Douglas: So. Yeah. And, you know, I think there's so much—early on, folks were asking, “Oh, do we get a discount for virtual?” And I’m like, “Man, I’m thinking about charging a premium,” because it's not only the prep time, but, you know, having an assistant facilitator is so much more critical because someone has to manage the tech. Michael: Absolutely. And what we're finding is frequently—I would put it in the 20 percent time—the facilitator has an issue. So as an example, one of our rules is for client sessions, client sessions, you never underscore underscore. Use your microphone on the computer. You always call in over the phone. The reason is if something happens to one of the two, you still have the other. So for some reason, you lose Internet connection, you can still talk to them. Or some reason the audio goes out, you can convert to what's happening. So you actually want to have redundant backup. We often suggest that you have another computer connected. So you have two sessions going, one is the participant computer. So if something happens, you can transfer over quickly to make it seamless. So it's almost like you run out of flip-chart paper. You run out of flip-chart paper, you always have a spare right there. Well, how do you do that virtually? Douglas: Planning on the redundant systems, having the activity by activity, having what is the virtual equivalent of all of this? Have I taken the time to proof it and make sure it's good? I mean, that is a lot of extra work, and not to mention just the fatigue of these environments. And, you know, I recently spoke with someone. They were telling me that—I'm not sure where the research came from, so this is all anecdotal—but they were saying that any time we're typically working in a three foot kind of context, it's typically a fight or a mating scenario. Michael: Wow. Douglas: Because you don't get three feet in someone's face inside the meeting room. That would be awkward. But now we’re doing that with these computers and is very sometimes mostly charged, political, like, we're talking about some really intense stuff. And we go in, and we try to—one mistake we made early on was, let's have an eight-hour session virtually. And, you know, you can't do that virtually. Michael: Yeah, it’s much harder. Douglas: You have to do it much shorter. And so I think there's some training of setting expectations for clients, too— Michael: Absolutely. Douglas: —even ones we've worked with in the past. Michael: Yeah, yeah. And so I'm going to go a step further, because this will be—because you are correct that the virtual sessions, by their nature, the dynamic is very different. And I want to—everyone knows—not everyone knows—many are aware, and it comes out in our polls, when we ask people, what is the biggest challenge in virtual meetings? And we've asked this to thousands of people now through our webinars and so on. It always comes up with the same thing, and it's not even close. It's engagement, keeping people engaged, because people are multitasking, doing other things. And so as facilitators, that's got to be our number one focus. How do we keep people engaged? And here is something that we ask people to consider. We as a company, we do have, we have what we call the PDI Difference—Practical, Dynamic, Interactive. And the way we do that in face-to-face sessions is we ensure that if we're training people or having a facilitated session, there will be significant engagement every 20 to 30 minutes. Thirty minutes will not go by without significant engagement, and mostly 20 minutes. So somewhere between 20 and 30 minutes. Douglas, when you go virtual, cut that bad boy in half. You’ve got to have significant engagement every 10 to 15 minutes. So if you’re getting people together, if you are going 90 minutes between breaks, do the math. Even if you say, “Well, the beginning, there's obviously engagement. People are going.” And the end of that 90 minutes you have engagement, so that means you've got to have at least four others, at least four other engagements. And if all you know is the classic engagement question-answer, question-answer, man, that meetings will wear people out. That's why it's so important for people to have all these other engagement strategies—dump and clump, last man standing, rotating flip charts, all this other stuff, to help put in people's toolbox. And so really important for facilitators to recognize that it takes a lot more if it's virtual. And as you said, training our clients that, “Listen, you know, normally I would charge a day of prep for this, but it's virtual. And so therefore,…” Yeah. And making it clear it's extra. Douglas: Absolutely. Let's talk a little bit about the Secrets of Facilitation. Michael: Oh, my favorite book. Yes. Douglas: You have over 60 secrets in that book. Michael: It is. And really good stuff, I think, personally. Douglas: Yeah. I'm a fan. I have it on the bookshelf behind me. And, you know, beyond the basics, things like preparing and managing for dysfunction, what do you think the biggest secret that most people don't know? Like, what's the one that you’re just like time and time again does no one just…? Michael: There are a couple that come to mind, but let me focus on this one. And I'm about to make a statement, Douglas, that when I say it in our training classes—I mentioned we trained over 20,000 people—there are always people who go, “No, that can't be right.” And by the end of the teaching, they go, “Yeah, that's really true.” Here is the statement: there are only three reasons people disagree. Huge secret. There are only three. Every disagreement in the entire freakin’ world, there are only three reasons people disagree. Only three. Now, that's the good news, and that's really good news. But here's the bad news, and it's really bad news. If you have a level-three disagreement and you try to solve it with level-one techniques, you're going to fail. Level-three disagreements can't be solved with level-one techniques. Likewise, you have a level-one disagreement, try to solve it with level-two techniques, you are going to fail. Can't happen. So we as facilitators have to understand the three reasons people disagree. Have to be able to diagnose which reason it is and have strategies for addressing each one. Now, while that's a teaser, I probably should take a minute to say what are those three reasons people disagree. So let's break it down really quickly. So you probably have figured out one, two, or three of them. You want to take any guesses, Douglas, or you want me to reveal? Your shot. Douglas: Why don't you—well, you do the reveal. You do the reveal. Michael: Okay, I’ll do the reveal. So number one, and it's most disagreements, level-one disagreements, and you actually implied it when you were talking about learning that you were a great facilitator. That is, people disagree because of information. One has information that the other doesn’t have, and they’re arguing, bumping heads, even though once they realize and the information is put on the table, they'll realize they weren’t in disagreement at all. Level-one disagreements always end the same way. “Oh, is that what you meant?” There you go. And as we like to say, when you hear those words, your job is done, because they really weren't in disagreement. In fact, the book Crucial Conversations highlights that, they give it a name, violent agreement. They really are in agreement, but they were arguing. They were just using different words or one had information that the other didn't have. So you saw level-one disagreements, pretty simple. We as facilitators have to understand the difference between advocacy and inquiry. If you ever watched two people arguing, it's like they're fighting back and forth. Statement, statement, statement, statement. Each person is trying to advocate for theirs. If one of them would just step back and just ask the question, “Well, why do you say that? What do you mean by that?” they’ll then would clarify, and you would hear those words, “Oh, is that what you meant?” There you go. Resolved. So we have to move people from advocacy mode to inquiry mode, and you do that yourself by asking questions. In a business environment, there are specific questions we train facilitators to ask, because most level-one disagreements or business are based on either cost, time, who’s involved, or how it’s going to happen. And so we get the questions. Level-two disagreements are different. If the level-one disagreements are about information—again, we find most disagreements are level one—level-two disagreements are about values or experiences, that they have different values or had had different experiences that prefer one alternative over the other. They understand each other perfectly. They just value different things. Well, you can solve a value disagreement simply by identifying and isolating the key values. What are the key values that each person has? And then creating solutions, brainstorming solutions, that combine those values. It's not a compromise activity. It is a creativity activity, where, as we teach it, you can come up with some pretty novel solutions once you isolate those key values. It just works. In fact, we get more letters about that technique than any others because it really does work when you understand what you're looking to do. Level-three disagreement is different. It's not about information. It's not about values or experiences. It's about personality, past history with one another, or some outside factor that has nothing to do with the disagreement. It's not about the disagreement. They basically don't like each other. Can you solve a level-one disagreement by asking questions about the issue? No, because it's not about the issue. Can you solve a level-three disagreement by asking about the values? It’s not—yeah, you solve level-three disagreements differently. Take it to a higher source. You're not going to solve it at this level. You've got to take it up the chain. And so we talk about strategies for doing that. But most facilitators, that secret of understanding there are only three reasons people disagree, and so when you're listening to a disagreement, we train people to say, “Hey, next time you're listening to a disagreement, just say under your breath, ‘level two. Yeah, level one. Yeah, level three,’ so that you can get used to diagnosing what type of disagreement it is so that you keep that mindset of, okay, here's the technique I want to use to adjust this disagreement. So it's cool stuff and really one of those fun secrets out of the 60. Douglas: Yeah. I love frameworks like that, that can—are very actionable and we can kind of lean on them in the moment pretty easily. Michael: Well, you know, I find that the best facilitators are process oriented, Douglas. And I'm just going to give your listeners a heads up. If you were to see the prep work that Douglas had sent out to my office around the thinking that they've already done around how to have a great podcast, it was like, oh, my gosh, this is like a cookbook. All I have to do is this part. They're doing all these other pieces. And some great process thinking, very much appreciate it, because it makes it easy. In the same way, if you can give facilitators a process to use that's been tested, proven, that they can modify and make theirs, it makes all the difference. And that's one of the things I think we're good at: giving people processes. Douglas: Absolutely. If you could change one thing about meetings in general, what would it be? Michael: Oh, my gosh. Wow. You're asking big questions here. If I could change one thing about meetings. Yeah, I guess—yeah, that would have to be it. Douglas, the biggest challenge I find, and we find over and over again with meetings that other people are leading, is preparation. So few people do the preparation necessary. And quite frankly, it's not a lot of work if, as you would say, there's a framework for it. And so I'll just give your listeners a framework. We call it the six Ps. And it doesn't matter whether you are running a meeting for yourself or running a meeting for someone else, ask the six Ps, because once you know the six Ps, you execute on that and you can be really prepared. One, and you know it all starts with purpose. Douglas: Yes. Thank you. Michael: Why are we having this meeting? Douglas: Yes. Michael: Why are we having this meeting? What's the real purpose of the meeting? And then we say, “Okay, now that we're clear…” And so I'll give an example just to make it real for your listeners. Someone may come to us. “Michael, Michael, I’d love to have a team-building session for my team.” First P, purpose. “Really? Help me understand what's really the purpose of the team-building session?” “Well, I need my team working together better because, you know, we kind of snipe at each other sometimes. So I really want us to have a strong, bonding experience so that we can walk out of that room, moving together, working together, feeling better about each other.” “That's helpful.” Second P, product. “So what is the product you want to come out of that meeting?” “Michael, what do you mean?” “Well, think about it this way, in terms of the three Hs. When this meeting’s over, what do you want your team to have in their hands that they can see?” “Well, Michael, it’d be great if we had a team vision.” “Cool. Anything else?” “Well, maybe some team norms.” “Okay. Anything else?” “Well, maybe if we could walk away with what's going to happen if someone violates the norm, so we have that kind of…” “Anything else?” “No, I think that's pretty good.” “All right. Well, thank you. Well, let me ask you this. What do you want them to have in their head when the session is over?” “Michael, what do you mean?” “Well, what do you want them to know that they didn't know before the meeting started?” “Well, maybe I want them to know, hey, what makes a team great? What are the qualities of a great team and know how we assess against that, and what are the things we need to work on to be a great team?” “Cool, cool, great. So what do you want them to have in their hearts when the session is over?” “Michael, you getting soft on me?” “No, no, no. What do you want them to believe that maybe they didn't believe before this session was held?” “Well, I want them to believe that if we do these things, we’ll be a great team. I want them to feel committed to making it happen.” “There you go. Great. Well, so you’ve talked about purpose and product. Let me ask you this. Tell me about the people who are going to be in the room. Who needs to be in the room that we create these products and achieve this purpose?” “Well, I want my whole team there.” “Anyone else?” “Well, you know, do you think, Michael, my E.A., should be there?” “Well, let me ask you, do you think your E.A. is part of the team, work with the team? Is your E.A. part of getting things to happen?” “So, yeah, that's great.” “Anyone else? There we go.” “All right. Well, we talked about purpose, product, participants. Let me ask you this. What are the probable issues that we need to address? What are the things that we absolutely need to talk about if these participants are going to create these products to achieve this purpose?” “Yeah. We've had a couple of things happen over the last few months that we really need to talk about.” “Well, let's talk about what those are. Anything else we need to talk about? Great.” “Well, now let's talk about process. What's the process you're thinking we might want to take the team through so that we address these issues so the participants create the product and the purpose? Great.” And notice, by the way, Douglas, process is fifth. Many people think, “I want to hold a meeting. What's the agenda?” Wrong answer. There’re four questions you have to answer first—purpose, product, participants, probable issues—before you get to process. Never start with agenda. And then the six P is place, meaning—and it's all the stuff around the place. And in these days, the place is virtual. So let's talk about all the things around the virtual platform that needs to be. So we say when you have those six questions answered, the six Ps of preparation, you're now ready to do the work to get well prepared for your session. So we think that's a great way to address and make meetings so much better. Just most people don't do the work. They don't think about the six Ps. Douglas: Yeah, you know, there’re so many meeting—you talked about the lack of preparation, and it’s like— Michael: Yeah. Douglas: And so there's this weird spectrum, because on one end, no one's doing anything. So they're just kind of walking in blind, and they just threw something on your calendar called a meeting, and they're not even—so there's a lexicon and taxonomy problem. Michael: Yes. Douglas: And so that's a whole other thing we could get into. But then on the other hand, when they do the planning, their agenda’s just a list of topics— Michael: Yes. Douglas: —and it’s not thoughtful, it’s not informed by— Michael: Absolutely. Douglas: —the purpose. We were just talking earlier today about the problem with icebreakers and warmups, in that— Michael: Oh, my gosh, yes. Douglas: —people just throw them on the agenda, without thinking about the purpose and why they’re there. And I love this. I have this saying that if you can’t ask your participants after doing something like that, “Why did we just do that?” and have it erupt into a pithy conversation, you need to ask yourself, “Why did we just do that?” Michael: Oh, well said, Douglas. Well said. In fact, our company, in general, when it comes to icebreakers, we hate them because most icebreakers are just stuff. And we say, “It's good to break the ice,” but you want to break the ice with an activity that furthers the purpose and product of the session. If you say, “Hey, you know what, we’d like to spend a few minutes talking about your favorite vacation spot,” that's a great icebreaker if the purpose of our session is to choose a vacation spot. If it's not, leave that icebreaker at home. “Hey, you know what, we'd like to hear about your most embarrassing moment.” That is a great icebreaker if this session is about dealing with embarrassing moments. If it's not, leave that icebreaker at home. Whatever you use as an icebreaker, it should further the session result, not be something, as you said, that’s unpurposeful and inserted into the meeting. Facilitators have a bad rap of, “Hey, we help people hold hands and sing Kumbaya.” Read that from an executive standpoint, “We're great at wasting people's time.” That's how executives view the classic Kumbaya facilitators. Our job is to make sure every moment we spend with executives is productive. It's used to get to a result that they are willing to invest in. If they're not willing to invest, we have just added non-value activity. So non-value added activity is not helpful in a facilitated session. Douglas: Well said, my friend. So I would love to leave our listeners with one last piece of advice. And so if you could ensure every facilitator in the world had one skill, what would it be? Michael: That's easy. That's really easy. When you think about facilitators, when we walk into a room, our most important job is to pull out the most important information that's going to help this group get where they're going. That's our responsibility. To do that, we don't have to be good at asking questions. We have to be great at asking questions. We have to be really excellent at using questions to pull out the information that's going to help the group. As I said in one of my early, early ad set we put together, the ad said, “Hidden inside of your company are answers to some of the most important issues facing your organization. Your people have the answers. We bring the questions.” And so we teach something called the secret of the starting question. If you’ve ever facilitated a session and you asked this really great question and got complete and utter silence, if that’s ever happened to you, what we teach is, more times than not, the reason you got silence is that you asked what we call the “type A” question instead of a “type B” question. Type A questions lead people to silence. Type B questions get people putting up their hands, jumping up and down, trying to get you to respond to them. Or you're old enough to remember Welcome Back, Kotter. We called it the Horshack effect. “Ooh, ooh, ooh, Mr. Kotter. Mr. Kotter, call on me.” And that's what we want to get. And so, how do you get that? Well, it’s all in how you ask the question. And we call it the secret of the starting question. Now, just to give an example. Let’s go back to my hiring process. If we're in a room and we got a bunch of people, we're trying to figure out how the hiring process works today, that's one of the first agenda items. As a facilitator, we go, “Okay, great. We're all together. We're ready to get to that first agenda item. Let's get started. How does the hiring process work today?” Crickets. “Come on, folks. You know how it works. How does it work today? What are the steps?” Crickets. “Come on, guys. You know the…” There you go. Instead, you would ask what we call a type B question, and it sounds like this. “You know, we're ready to get started with documenting the current hiring process. I'd love for you to think about the last time you hired someone. Think about all the steps you had to go through, all the people you had to talk with, the forms or whatever you had to fill out to get that person on board. What are the steps in the current hiring process?” We call that a type B question. How is it formed? They're three steps. It's pretty easy. It's pretty simple, just not easy. Its first step is you start with an image-building phrase. “Think about the last time…,” or “If you were about to...” or “Imagine…” It doesn’t start with “What…” Here comes a type B question. You're going very direct. Or “Why…” or “How…” or so on. It starts with an image-building phrase because you're trying to create an image, because when people can see their answers, they answer right away. Then, you expand the image with at least two other phrases. Then, you ask the direct question. “Think about the last time you hired someone. Think about all the steps you had to go through, all the people you had to talk with,” and so on. Because when people can see their answers, they raise their hand. When people can’t see their answers, if you ask, “What are the steps in the current hiring process?” they're going to go, “Hm, let me think.” What are they doing? They're trying to imagine their answers. Why? Because you didn’t ask a question that helped them do it. Facilitation means to make easy. We've got to get them visualizing their answers. So that's just one of the things. We teach nine different questioning techniques. And if we could do that for every facilitator in the world—in fact, your audience have probably heard of TED Talks. If they were to go to the TED site and type in “secret of the starting question,” they would see me giving a TEDx Talk to the International Association of Facilitators on the secret of the starting question. Douglas: I love it. So good. It's funny, once you were starting to talk about the secret to—or the one thing that facilitators should know, and you started talking about questions, I was going to ask you, what is one of your favorite questions? But then, before I even had the opportunity, you gave us a framework for asking questions. So I'm still going to throw this at you for extra credit. Is there a question…? In fact, you threw out one of my favorites already, and that is, what did you mean by that? I think that's such a disarming question, especially if someone says something that is maybe judgmental or offensive in some way, and maybe there was no intention behind it, and we want to just give them an opportunity to unravel that or explain it. Michael: And it helps them do it. And that’s a great one. And I think one of the things you find is why questions and how questions are often challenging for people. And so you want to be careful, as we say, you want to focus on the tone. And probably my favorite, it's simple, is, “Help me understand, why is that important? Help me understand, why is it important?” because your tone could be, “So why is that important?” That’s a wrong tone. No, thank you. Yeah. So tone as you ask that question, “Why is that important?” is one of my favorite questions. There have to be questions because it gets to, oh, new understanding, because I'm thinking, perhaps if you could see my thought bubble, “What does that have to do with anything we're talking about?” And so sort of just, “Hey, help me understand, why is that important?” Douglas: Also, “Help me understand,” I'm taking the blame for not understanding it, which is great. It reminds me, too—I've been listening to a lot of masterclass. And Chris Voss has a really great masterclass, and he's a master negotiator— Michael: Oh, excellent. Douglas: —and author of that book, Never Split the Difference. And one of his points around not using why, he never asks any why questions when he's negotiating with a hostage. And it's because, remember when you were a little kid and something you broke, something by accident, and your parents were like, “Why did you do that?” So it's just like, it brings you back to those moments. So we don't want to psychologically hijack anyone when we're asking these questions that we don't really have much intent behind. Michael: There you go. Really important stuff. Questions are a key for facilitators. Really getting down a question framework for yourself, really good stuff. Douglas: Absolutely. And I encourage people to check out the type B questions and all the other great stuff, the six Ps, et cetera. It's really awesome stuff. And so if they were going to dig deeper into this, how can they find you? How can they unravel the secrets more deeply? Michael: Well, please, our website, www.leadstrat—that’s short for Leadership Strategies—leadstrat.com, and any of the resource pages. You can also, in our store, we have all the books—The Secrets of Facilitation is probably the one we’ve talked about the most, as well as Click: The Virtual Meetings Book. Those two are ones that in this pandemic people will find most helpful. And again, do check out— Oh, our gift to the industry, we recognize that as part of our—we’re the largest facilitation company in the country, that what we do, we typically do three or four free webinars a month. Most recently, we've been doing them on the virtual side of things, running effective virtual meetings, making Zoom hum, those kinds of things, just, really, free webinars. Of course, we do it because we know that once people get a taste of what we do, they may want to learn more. We’ve been doing them for over a decade now, these webinars. But please check them out. And you know what most webinars, Douglas, are thinly veiled sales pitches. For us, we go, “Okay. Please give us 60 minutes. You're going to get 55 minutes of real content, stuff you can use tomorrow. Then, the last five minutes we’ll talk about for those who want to learn more.” So really hardcore, hit-it content. And so it's really great. They get 400 or 500 people on every webinar, and so it's really fun stuff. Douglas: Excellent. Well, I can't wait to check one out. And, you know, it's been a pleasure to have you on the show today. Michael: Oh, likewise, being with you. It’s just been a fun conversation. Douglas: Absolutely. Well, thanks again, and we’ll be talking to you soon. Michael: All right. You take care. Outro: Thanks for joining me for another episode of Control the Room. Don't forget to subscribe to receive updates when new episodes are released. If you want more, head over to our blog, where I post weekly articles and resources about working better together

In this episode Tom and Emil go head to head to debate which investing strategy is superior, local or remote investing.    --- Transcript   Michael: Hey, everybody. Welcome to another episode of their moat real estate investor. I'm Michael album. And today I'm joined by my usual hosts,   Tom: Tom Schneider   Emil: And Emil, The Real Deal, Shour.   Michael: Ooh, I love that self-proclaimed nickname. Love it. And today we're going to be doing another show down. We've got a lot of feedback from our listeners that showed on episodes were well received. So today we are going to be debating the pros and cons of remote investing versus local investing dunked on done. Well, guys, let's jump into it.   Emil: That was actually a nickname that someone I went to college with gave me.   Michael: Okay. So it wasn't self-proclaimed.   Tom: Emil, The Real Deal.   Emil: We were in the same frat and we had like boxing night and…   Michael: that's so good.   Emil: He introduced me as Emil, The Real Deal!   Michael: I would never go on a boxing match with anybody that had that intense of a nickname.   Emil: Those people went down. Went down hard.   Michael: Okay. So for any of our new listeners out there, my name is Michael Albaum and I'm the head coach with the Roofstock Academy, Roofstock's education arm, and Emil, do you want to tell us a little bit about yourself and who you are?   Emil: Yes. My name is Emil Shour. I work on the marketing team here at Roofstock, which if anyone's not familiar, it's a marketplace where investors come to buy and sell single family rental homes. And so I work on the marketing team. I actually invested through Roofstock's marketplace before I was employed here. And now I have the joy of getting to spread the word.   Michael: So you're drinking the Koolaid.   Emil: That's right.   Tom: An evangelist!   Michael: That's right. And Tom, who are you my friend?   Tom: That is a deep question.   Michael: Start at birth!   Tom: Start at birth. So I am an investor. I'm a California broker. I work here at Roofstock on the investor education team. I initially worked at one of the very first publicly traded REITs, doing single family rental, kind of in the wild West of 2009. And then our CEO went and was a co founder and starting Roofstock. So I jumped over and joined him at Roofstock on the product side and the operations. And now, as I mentioned on the investor education side.   Michael: Awesome. Love it.   Tom: Before we get into the meat of the episode, a quick announcement as usual, this episode was brought to you by Roofstock Academy. Roofstock Academy is Roofstock's education program to get you to the next level. We include over $2,500 worth of marketplace credits on demand lectures, one-on-one coaching group coaching, all kinds of benefits. And we have this new benefit that we put together that Michael is leading it's our book club.   Michael: Within the Roofstock Academy, we actually do a monthly book club. We get together and read the same book over the course of the month that has some takeaway, some motif, some applicable things to real estate investing. And we get together at the end of the month and we have a chat about it. And cause now it's COVID, we're doing that all virtually, but hope to be able to do that in person at some point down the road. And this upcoming months book club book is Michael Uber's, one rental at a time. And as an added bonus for this month book club, we're actually going to have Michael Zuber on that call with us as kind of a fireside chat. And as we're going to be discussing his books, we get to hear it from the source himself about some of the reasons he wrote the book and some of the takeaways from the book as well. So now is the opportune time to join the Roofstock Academy roofstockacademy.com. So you can join us for that monthly book club and take advantage of all of the other advantages the Roofstock Academy has to offer as well.   Emil: For people who aren't familiar with Michael Zuber, he's been on the podcast twice. Good friend of the podcast episode 11 was the first one we had with him, the power of four rental properties and how it can change your life. And most recently, I think we, we dropped an episode with him this past week called how Michael Zuber Quit His Job On a Whim After Achieving Financial Independence. So if you're not familiar with who he is, go back and listen to those episodes. He's a super, super smart guy he's been investing for. I think 20 plus years. Now he knows a lot and has a really, really awesome message for other investors.   Michael: So today for our shutter and episode, we're going to be taking two sides of this argument and splitting it up a meal. Why don't we give you remote? We'll give you a remote and Tom, you're going to have to defend local investing.   Tom: Yeah. A classic episode, a classic discussion for the remote real estate. We're going to, you know, try not to be too biased…   Michael: But it is called The Remote Real Estate Investor,   Tom: But it'll be fun. It'll be fun. I don't know. Yeah. It's fun going to the other side of the table. So..   Michael: I think it's important to address and acknowledge both sides of any topic of any discussion because it's two sides to every coin and there is no one size fits all approach, even though remote real estate investing is far superior, but we're going to get to that in the episode. So a meal, would you like to go first or second   Emil: I'm game for either Michael?   Michael: Okay.   Emil: You're the moderator.   Tom: Go first Emil. That way I'm giving you a heads up. I'm handicapping you alright,   Michael: Emil, the floor is yours.   Emil: All right. So I have three points I want to hit here. That Tom is going to have a very hard time rebutting. So the first one is that with remote investing, you buy where it makes sense. So if you're a local investor, you're looking around at your local market, you're geographically constrained to just the deals around you. So if you live in Los Angeles or the Bay area, like we do, prices have gone out of control. Prices have gone up a lot and rent has not been able to keep up with that. So in certain markets, it's very hard to find cash flowing properties, unless you have a lot of money, put a lot of money down. It's very, very hard to make those work. There's still good markets. It's just harder to make the cash flow work. So when you're a remote investor, you buy where it makes sense.   You look at different markets, you look at where deals are, where the fundamentals are good and you invest there. You're not geographically constrained to only where you live. You go to where the deal is. Makes sense. The second point I want to touch on is you get to build a team instead of doing everything yourself. I know personally, if I was investing locally, I would want to do a lot of things myself, instead of relying on other people, finding the right team. And I think that's an advantage in building a team because these people are professionals. I'm not, I'm not a professional property manager or inspector any of these things, but being the person I am and liking control, I feel like I would try to get my hand into too many of those things. Whereas when you're remote again, you have to rely on the fuel.   You have to build a team. And so I think that's one of the advantages of going remote is you're required to build that team of professionals. The last one I want to touch on before I get on the floor is I think with remote investing, it's a lot less emotional and more about the numbers. I think when you go and view properties all the time in person, it's hard to ignore some of the blemishes that you bring to the property, right? You have some bias. You're like, Oh, would I live here? And with rental properties, especially for cashflow, that's not what matters. It's do the numbers make sense in a market that I like. And is this an area that I'm comfortable with? The risk it's not about is this somewhere I could see myself living. And I think if you're doing the local investing, you bring a lot of that emotion in looking at a lot of the properties you look at.   Michael: Wow. Tom, come back from those man.   Tom: I like it. I'm so confident. I'm going to slow roll a little bit. I'm actually just going to compliment a couple of your points before I stepped back and do the fade away three while kicking my leg out for you to run into it for me to get an extra free throw. So yeah.   Emil: Okay. James harden.   Tom: Okay. So to honor my comment there, I love the point about how it allows you to not kind of get in your own head and just be super data-driven about it, but okay. Onto the good stuff, I'm a good stuff. So investing local is definitely the way that you want to do it. So I think the first point that I'm going to make, which could be the most relevant is you're never going to know a market better than your own market. And me personally, I've been studying the market since I was about eight years old. I'd go to Safeway, I'd get the homes and land magazine. And I would just study comps. And I had this long trend of analysis. I know the different markets, different property types, how they're trending. Heck I even know the agents, right? The Kerses family out here, great agents. So you're going to know a market a lot better just from, you know, kind of hounding your local Zillow or Redfin or whatever. Basically the adult version of the homes and land magazine from the Safeway. All right. The next point is, man, what value is it to be able to touch and feel the house, you know, to go up to the house and touch the walls and kind of like smell it. You can't do that remotely. And one of the reasons people like investing in real estate is because it's a tangible asset. It's, it's something, you know, you're not buying some future of gasoline because the price of crude is low.   You know, it's an actual asset that some people actually use using by doing it remotely. You're kind of getting away from that. You're getting away from that touchy, feely wonderfulness of buying a house that you can actually see and walk into. And you know, you get out of the ethereal, if I steal a word from Michael here, it's a nice to the realleal, so, you know, you're being there. So that's number two is the tangibility of it, of actually being there, getting to go see it. It's pretty awesome. And lastly is you're not going to get taken advantage of, you know, doing things over the phone. You're going to have these quick talking sharks, selling you snake oil and all kinds of trouble. So I like to shake somebody's hand or I guess nowadays is you do an elbow bump of, you know, getting, if I'm going to do business with somebody, I'm going to want to get to know them.   I'm going to want to look them in the eye and touch elbows or whatever we do now with COVID and you can't do that in zoom. It's just super awkward. So there you go. That's why you want to invest locally.   Michael: So, Tom, what would you have to say to some of the meals points that he brought up?   Tom: All right. Let's do it so well, I, I quite agree with a lot of appeals points. I totally agree. I mean, I don't want to waste my, you know, momentum for when we switched sides of the argument, but there is a lot of limitations on only looking into your own area, but you know, just when we say local, that doesn't mean you have to do everything, you know, within five miles of your house, roll it out a little bit further, you know, go 30 miles go a couple hours. So we were talking before the episode where we were talking about our experience with local investing and I have done some stuff working for fun, not with my own money, doing local investing, but Michael has invested locally. I would consider, you know, within that three hour range that kind of counts as local. So to address that point about, you know, not being specific things in your area, you know, rollout the distance, the radius, spread it out a little bit further. You can still do things locally. You know, if you're uncomfortable going 2000 miles away go 200 miles away like within striking distance. So that would be my point number one.   The point number two, about being comfortable about using other folks is, you know, it's a muscle and if you're uncomfortable, you know, going a hundred percent building a team, that's okay. Just kind of pick points and spots and build that muscle of getting trust in getting good at letting go of things. And honestly, that's a big problem. I know for a lot of people, especially investors who are pretty generally pretty type a kind of go getters is to consciously make an effort of letting go of certain aspects of the business. So you can focus on where you have higher ROI.   Michael: I've got a question for you, both that you both kind of touched on Amelia, you mentioned that if you're going to invest remotely, that you can't go see the property and that that's difficult to do. And Tom, you mentioned, you know, being local, you're able to go touch and feel and see the property, but couldn't someone who's investing remotely still go touch and feel, see, and smell and taste. I think you included in there, the property,   Tom: If you're good, you will.   Emil: That's right. Always want to lick the walls before you sign those docs.   Michael: Check the lead based paint disclosure before licking the walls.   Emil: Correct. Actually, I think the right thing to do is to lick it, to make sure that there isn't lead.   Michael: That's right.   Tom: It's your tongue turns blue then…   Emil: Trust the verify.   Tom: No, you're totally right, Michael. I mean I've for some of the house that I've bought, I've seen them, but for most of them might have nod and what the ticket is, is having an inspector because honestly, if I go to the house and my ability to assess, you know, issues is not going to be better than an inspector who like does this professionally. So, you know, having the idea that, Oh, me going out there, I'm going to be able to do a better job than some inspector is a little bit of a stretch. So, you know, having confidence in the credentials and you know, where these inspectors are coming from, and then also looking at their homework. So like when an inspector goes and does an inspection on a house, they're filling out a super thorough report on what was identified. And that is including pictures and descriptions and as well as adding any followup items that are on there. So I'm not really sure where I'm arguing on this. I got, I got going, but you know, to the point, like I think it's, yo u know, going to see the property before buying it, you could totally do that. Even if it is remote, you know, there's no reason why you couldn't do it. And it makes you get comfortable to be able to get in the game. You know, that's an expense that you can use as a writeup. I'm not a tax professional, but for that in there,   Emil: Thank you, Tom, for further arguing my remote point but no, I think you're right. I think you can, like, let's say you put an offer on a property you're in escrow. You can go visit that property, put some eyes on it, make sure everything looks good. Yes. You know, I rely on pictures and video and things like that to like before the offer process. But I actually want to make that part of how I operate going forward. Obviously with COVID, it makes it a lot tougher, but the markets I invest in, I want to be visiting those more regularly. I haven't at all, but I want to be. And I think it makes a lot of sense if that makes you more comfortable go visit the property before you finish escrow.   Tom: Yeah. I think I personally kind of like Seesawed a little bit on like, you know, needing to be in the market where kind of when I was in it, I think it was really important to go and check it out, to go in the other way of seeing like, nah, you don't need to see it at all. I think it's been to find a happy balance. Like if you buy a property and it hits those check boxes that you're looking for with regards to population and schools and other kind of local dynamic economy, like great. I think it's some people need to be comfortable by taking a look at the market. Great. Go be comfortable and do that. Just know that, you know, there isn't necessarily a one size fits all answer.   Emil: Yep. And one last thing you mentioned being local, you know, your market way better than being a remote investor. I think that's true. I think that that'll always be the case you live there, you just, you know, what's happening. One thing I really trying to do though in the markets that I invest in is like get more ingrained in local news outside of just real estate. So I'll set up Google alerts and get the top things happening in that city to just like better understand what's going on. And I think this is where talking to your property manager regularly, again, visiting those markets regularly doing drive-through of different neighborhoods. It's just going to get you better and better at these different markets.   Michael: That's a really great point Emil. I'm going to piggyback off what Tom said. I always talk in the Academy with members about if going to the market is what's stopping you from investing then by all means go, but you'll have to kind of face the reality of everybody has personal biases and you're not going to be able to unsee undue, unexperienced, the things that you see and do and feel, and experience in that market for better or for worse. And so the ideal scenario is you pick a market that has good numbers, has good metrics and you go see the property and you love the property and you love the market, but that's not always the case. Just like you said Emil is that it doesn't necessarily matter how it makes you feel because you might not be living there. If the numbers make sense and the facts are there to support the market, it could still be a great investment independent of the fact of whether or not you enjoy it. And so if you go somewhere and think, wow, I would never live here. I don't want to invest here. Now we're mixing emotion into the decision making process, which can really be dangerous. And so if we can go with the guys of understanding that it doesn't really matter how I feel, if I feel great, that's kind of a cherry on top, but I should still be willing to invest. Even if it doesn't make me feel good. That's something to think about.   Tom: That's a great point. I mean, so much of this is an introspective exercise where it's like, okay, what do I need to do to know that, you know, I feel good about investing in this area. And I think it's a great point, Michael, that it comes to a point where you need to be a little bit just focused on the numbers. But if you know that you're going to need to kind of touch it and take a look just at the market in general, then there's no reason that you can't do that. And I like the happy balance of, you know, if there's a market, you know, going to take a look at the market and not necessarily, if there is a property to look at great, go look at a property, but you don't necessarily have to look at the one that you are investing in, but you have like a general kind of taste of the area. If that's something that's important to you, there's no reason why you can't do that. But to Michael's point, like at the end of the day, the numbers are really what carry the day trust in the process.   Emil: All of us kind of agree that the numbers, aren't the only thing that drive us, right? If it's like awesome cabaret cash on cash, but it's in a really rough neighborhood where we don't see that neighborhood turning around or whatever it is. I don't think any of us would invest there just because the numbers on paper look really good. There's a lot of other factors that we also take into account as well.   Michael: Yup, absolutely. Alright. This was really great. And I want you guys to flip flop, Tom, why is remote investing far superior than local investing in meal? You've got to defend because you got to go first, last time. So now Tom's on the offensive. Fight!   Tom: Emil, welcome to 2020. The world is your oyster. Get out of your little hole, get your head out of the sand, you Flamingo is that the animal does the…   Michael: Ostrich.   Tom: You're, you're being an ostrich. And you know, there's been some advents in technology that has allowed us to invest remotely. One of them is cloud computing that allows for you to have access to incredible amounts of data outside of your backyard. So cloud computing, that's one, the other is, uh, mobile phones. Uh, there's all kinds of cool technology that didn't exist before that Roofstock leverages and other, you know, potentially brokerages. Um, have you guys seen, have you heard of the 3d walkthrough? Right? So inside maps, Matterport, very cool companies that allow you to basically walk through the house as if you are there. Not only are you being more psychogenic, you're just working smarter, not harder. So you're able to check these houses out at a really in depth level without needing to go there. You're saving gas mileage. Think of, you know, you're being green, okay. Cloud computing, tons of data, cheap data on markets and evaluating other markets. Number two, mobile applications, mobile devices. And with that is the ability to have these really cool 3D walkthroughs to have a proliferation of inspections available. I know at Roofstock we use some cool mobile phones in using for our inspection capture leading to my third point, this ecosystem, right, that has developed around companies. So one such as Roofstock that basically does all the work ahead of time. All the benefits you would get from local investing in that, you know, being able to find these local partners, you can do really easily through platforms like Roofstock, which will connect you to all the partners that you need.   Be it insurance, be it in lenders. Now I'm not saying you can't use that same grit that you would be using locally, remotely. You should still apply that and apply it in a very diligent way, but all the drawbacks of doing it remotely that used to exist no longer exist, just because of the way the technology has advanced the way the cool companies like Roofstock has advanced. And the proof is in the pudding. I know just off the top of my head, I think there's been, you know, over over $10 million of transaction within the Roofstock Academy community, over $2 billion worth of transactions on the Roofstock community. So the proof is in the pudding. It's, you know, if you're not doing it right now, Emil, remotely investing you're behind. So, so get on the train.   Michael: Tom, what do you have to say about the interwebs, the online, the www online's making remote real estate investing easier?   Tom: Uh, you mean the connected tubes?   Michael: Yeah,   Tom: It honestly it shrinks the world. It's fantastic. And the big value points I think in there is just access to data. So being a data driven investor, I want to know what are some reputable sources for evaluating the local schools. I want to do a walk around on that block. Oh, wait a minute. I, can I go to Google maps and do a little walk around? That's fantastic. And honestly, again, you get a pretty good taste of, of being able to do it that way and getting the curb appeal and all of that good stuff. So the internet, I mean, it, it honestly would not be possible without it, but just as we've, since we've come so far since AOL and 56K modems or whatever, it's like, you know, on my phone, I could do a diligence on a property that honestly, the top private equity or top real estate investment companies could do it, it would cost them thousands and thousands of dollars to do on an individual property that I could do for free, just on my mobile phone while I am walking in my living room, in a local area. So the cost of doing the kind of diligence at an incredibly thorough level has gotten so cheap and so accessible. That there's just no question that remote investing is here and jump on board toot toot. Get on the train toot toot.   Michael: Alright Emil, you need some ice. Are you feeling okay? Are you ready to start swinging back?   Emil: I'm ready. You know what? I think Tom just convinced me to become a remote real estate investor. You opened my eyes. Michael: You didn't know this other world existed.   Emil: I had no idea about this, what podcast are we on?   Michael: Someone get this guy, a mobile phone.   Tom: Yeah get him a mobile device connected to the internet.   Michael: To the interwebs.   Emil: All right. I'm going to try not to rehash too much of what Tom mentioned. Hold on. Let me get my dog to shut up, one second. Zeke!!   Tom: So Mr. Michael Album, I hear you are doing some remote investing to the extreme. I've been following you on the Twitter world and yeah.   Michael: That's… No one should do that. That's a scary thing to hear.   Tom: Yeah. Doing remote in the United States is one thing, doing remote on the, across the Atlantic?   Emil: Portugal! Michael: Going very far East, stopping once I hit Europe, I'm actually currently investing in some properties in Portugal. There is something called the golden visa that I'm looking to take advantage of. And one of the ways to get a golden visa, which is basically permanent resident status, and then ultimately a passport after a five year period is by investment in the country. And so that can take the form of a few different ways. And so one of the options is investing in property. And so I'm looking to actually flip a property right now and then purchase a property for a long term buy and hold to get me access to that golden visa.   Emil: [sings] You go the golden visa, you got the golden visa. It's made up, it's fairy dust that someone sold Michael   Michael: And so you, Oh, that's right. That's right. Yeah. Speaking of buying snake oil.   Tom: Was this specifically for the golden visa.   Michael: It is, it is. So the returns are not anywhere near as attractive as what you can get in the States. And so the fact that you can buy an investment property and have it generate some kind of return is really a cherry on top. The real premise and the real Genesis is to get a golden visa and ultimately a second passport.   Tom: Wow.   Michael: So just being able to travel work, live, receive healthcare in the EU, any of the EU countries essentially for free. And so having the benefits of an, of an EU citizen and potentially be an EU citizen after five years.   Tom: Wow. So you would be a Portuguese and an American citizen. Yes. Very cool. Yup. Nobody knows any Portuguese out there that wouldn't mind tutoring me a little bit. I would love the help because I am pretty useless.   Tom: Portuguese is a difficult language. I went to Brazil for a little bit and Holy moly. I do not. Yeah. It was a…     Michael: It's so foreign and it's so fast.   Tom: Obrigado!   Michael: Yeah. Yeah. That's right. That's thank you for anybody listening. Nobody got it. Alright. Emil you're ready to punch back?   Emil: Alright. Knowing your market. I think that's a big advantage. If you're local, when things happen, you can go visit. That's another big one. The other three I wanted to mention are I think it's a lot easier to project manager rehabs. A lot of times when you're, you're doing a rehab or any type of any type of rehab from distance, you're trusting a lot of people project managing it. Isn't the easiest. Sometimes property managers will do it for you. It's a service they will provide. Sometimes they don't, but you're relying on pictures to kind of make sure each interval of the rehab process is happening. And a lot of times the little details are harder to see through pictures or anything, right. You want to make sure that it work is done right. And I think when you're local to be able to go and see the work that's being done, it's a huge advantage to make sure the little things weren't skipped or things that show up in picture that look okay, but you actually view it in person.   You know, the paint is splotchy or things like that. You can verify those things in person, much easier to do when you're local. The other one is this kind of ties into knowing your market, but where you live and where you are locally, you, you probably believe in that area. You probably believe in that economy. That's probably why you're there. You have a job, whatever it is when you're local, you probably have a sense that this area is going to do well for years to come. And you're trying to ride that wave of appreciation. Whereas when you're going remote harder to know all those things, you don't live there. You're not living and breathing and in that place and knowing what the local economy's doing. So I think when you're a local, you just have a better sense of is this place on the rise? I think most people live somewhere where you think things are going well. So that's another advantage to local, I would say. The last thing I talked about building a team, when you're remote, you have to build a team. I think when you're local, you build a team too. People will find your deals, property management, all those things. But the advantage of when you're local is you can actually go meet those people face to face, interview them a lot easier than when you're remote and you're just calling people. There's less of that personal connection. And I don't know when you meet people in person, you take them more seriously. They take you a little more seriously, not always, but I think it's actually easier to build a team when you're local. You do it for remote and local. And I think it's just easier to local. And that's it. Tom, go ahead.   Tom: Alright. Last couple of points I'll make on yours. You know, talking about investing in a market that you kind of believe in, you live in something we've learned over the last, I don't know, 30, 30, 40 years of investing is diversification is key. And a lot of people, their biggest investment that they make is going to be the house that they own and live in. And if you're making your biggest investment, obviously in an area that you live in, cause you live in it, why would you, you know, basically just double down on that same area, when you can diversify a little bit and put that money to work in an area that, you know, there might be some correlations with the economy because there generally is, but is subject to other upside and other kind of benefits. So being able to place your chips around. So instead of owning multiple houses in the same area that you live in already, where you have your biggest investment, the benefits of mixing it up and putting it into a different area, there's lots of value to diversifying that play.   Michael: Would you say Tom, that you would peanut butter spread the risk?   Tom: I love peanut butter spread. So my wife has started getting groceries from this place called Thrive Market and they have peanut butter in a spreadable packet. Pretty sweet.   Michael: Different than Justin's?   Tom: I don't know if it's Justin's I don't think it is, but anyways, it's not in a jar. It's like toothpaste packets. It's like toothpaste   Michael: Just on the go packs. Those things are great. Yeah.   Tom: I think I'm kind of violent about it. Cause I like burst a hole, like in the side. So peanut butter spread the risk, right? Just like spreadable peanut butter. You spread it apart. I guess the last kind of general point that isn't necessarily arguing to one way or the other remote or local investing is with all of this. It's not a one size fits all. I think all of us agree that, you know, while there is a little bit of unique requirements for investing remotely, ultimately the different types of returns it gives you access to and the diversification it gives you access to is it's worth that little bit of overhead. And as we mentioned before, then this episode, there's, there's different ways that people can get comfortable in different areas. For some people, they just get it right away and they can jump right in and invest.   And that's awesome. That's great. For some people they want to be a little bit more hands on and go and visit the area, perhaps even talk to property managers and that's okay too. Just kind of know where you sit and know what you need to do to get there either to move forward with an investment or to move on to some other type of investment. So I'd say as a theme in this podcast and real estate investing in general, have a bias for action of getting yourself into a position to either make the investments or to move on. Let's see the last little recurring theme that I think probably talk about every other episode is, as a remote investor, there really is no one as important as your property manager. So even if you're doing it locally too, and using professional property manager, your investment is gonna live and die by how well someone's going to be able to manage that for you and get, at least if you're not self managing and using professional property manager. So, you know, it doesn't matter if you're doing remotely or locally, but you know, especially if you're doing remotely, since you're not going to be able to visit the property that often do not sleep on the work that it takes to assess and qualify a property manager because you know, buying right can take you so far, but ultimately, you know, winning the operational metrics and keeping your overhead low is going to be on getting a good property manager. Who's going to keep that property occupied. So those are my final tidbits on it.   Emil: Well done. I know I don't get a rebuttal, but I thought those were all very strong.   Michael: I thought you both had strong points nicely done to you both. I'll share a little bit.   Tom: I'm excited for the Michael tidbits.   Michael: I was just going to share that I've done some, you alluded to it previously, Tom, but some quote unquote local investing. It was really, my first investment was down in Southern California, which we talked about on a previous episode, but I couldn't fathom investing remotely or out of state or really at much of a distance just because I was so green. So new to this space, you know, Roofstock wasn't around this whole education piece for a, Roofstock Academy wasn't around. And so that's all I knew. And so it was about three hour drive away from my grub. So it was semi local and I went and touched and toured a bunch of properties and met with my local agent who is a family friend who is also my property manager. So to Neil's point, we could touch a shake, hands, have visual rapport, physical rapport, which I'm kind of old school in that regard.   I would always prefer that. I think it's much more meaningful than the remote over zoom or over the telephone. And so I was able to be very hands on with that investment. And it's gone really well, given a long enough time horizon for anyone who listened to that first episode where it just like that property has been through several road bumps, several hiccups and speed. So the fact that it was local did not have any bearing on how difficult it was as a first property. It did not have any bearing on how bad or how sideways things could go. And that's been by far probably the worst experience I've had with any of my other investments. And so you can have good people and bad neighborhoods and bad people in good neighborhoods in local markets and at distance markets. So it's, you know, again, I think we said it before, it's not a one size fits all.   You just, every investor has to figure out what makes the most sense for them and Tom, you were just touching on it. I think if you need to baby, step your way into investing and start local or semi local, do it. If that's what it's going to take for you to start getting into the real estate investing arena, you know, start where it makes sense for you. Some people have no problem letting go of control and just doing it at a distance and setting up a team and kind of taking a back seat so to speak. But if that's not, you figure out how you operate as a person and figure out what's going to make the most sense for you. And then just go do it.   Emil: So for anyone who was curious about Michael's first deal, we covered that in episode 12, Here's What Our First Deal Looked Like and How They're Doing Today. That was the name of that episode. But I think, you know, the, the main theme, I'm glad you touched on that is there's people who are successful doing both right. There's people who are just local investors in expensive markets who are doing really well. People who just do remote investing, who are doing really, really well. And there's some people who do both, right. They do some local, some distance. And I think that's like the main thing we want to highlight. I don't think one is necessarily better than the other. It kind of just depends on your situation. And I think there's people doing well and doing both,   Michael: I think I want to just double down on that statement Emil. It is so dependent on who you are as a person and where you live. Because if someone's living in the Midwest right now, listening to this, so like I'm surrounded by deals. Why would I ever go remote when there's tons in my backyard, us being all Californians were, you know, semi-forced to go remote and you know, forced to go invest at a distance. So if that's not, you don't think that, Oh, I have to go invest remotely because of everything they talked about in the podcast, maybe, you know, our remote is your local, Oh, that's a trademark, Michael Albaum,  July 28, 2020.   Emil: Our remote is your local.   Michael: Yeah. So just go find where the deals make sense. I think is the one of the biggest takeaways because they could be read under your nose and you might not even know it because you're so focused on remote. I absolutely looked at local as a first opportunity semi found it and then how to go remote after the fact.   Michael: All right guys, I think that was a great rap battle for remote versus local investing. And before I let you guys go, I've got the question of the episode for you. Are you ready?   Tom: Let's do it.   Emil: Always. I'm rabbit, baby. I'm winning this rat battle.   Michael: What's your favorite breakfast cereal and why?   Tom: I'm ready.   Michael: Tom go. It's called Magic Spoon. It's not made with normal sugar. It's made from the sugar of raisins. So it's actually being promoted on a lot of podcasts. We're not being paid to promote magic spoon here. We have no affiliation with any royalties, but we're not opposed to it. And so magic spoon is basically children's cereal for adults. It is delicious. It doesn't have carbs. It's full of protein. What's great about not being, you know, I could just kind of say, say the good things about it and not necessarily have a check, a reference check on it, but it's, it's really good. Magic spoon, peanut butter. It's great raisin sugar.   Michael: So if it doesn't have carbs, like what is it like, what is it made of?   Emil: Fairy dust.   Tom: Magic spoon.   Emil: I've heard of that. It's expensive. It's not cheap.   Tom: I can't believe how expensive it is. Don't get me going on that.   Michael: There was this like frozen yogurt place that came out. I don't know. Maybe this is like going back 15, 20 years and kind of dating myself. But it's got like golden spoon, in Southern California, but I like the name gives you no indication of what the thing is. Like you would never think that's an ice cream place because it's called the golden spoon. Am I the only one that thinks that, sorry, golden spoon… If…   Tom: Spoons got range. Alright Emil, how about you, favorite cereal?   Emil: Does granola. It's like a granola cereal kind of thing. It's called Autumn's gold. I found it recently a Costco and it's like all nuts and cinnamon. So kind of same deal. It's paleo. No carb. I try to eat paleo during the week, at least. So that's probably like the only cereal these days I eat. But if we're, if we're aligning the clock, favorite cereal growing up, it's gotta be them Lucky charms, man.   Michael: They're always after me Lucky charms.   Tom: Are you a guy who eats non marshmallows until the very end? And then you just go all marshmallow.   Emil: Is there any other way to eat Lucky Charms?   Michael: I don't trust anybody that eats Lucky Charms any other way?   Emil: Yeah.   Tom: Yeah. And remember that like promotion. They are like, oops, we made a mistake and just marshmallows, man, that person on the factory line. What a moron!   Emil: Or a genius dude. He sold so many Lucky Charms boxes and he was promoted to like vice president.   Tom: VP of product.   Michael: That was like Playdo. Wasn't that? A mistake invented by mistake. So many of the greatest things.   Pierre: Sticky notes.   Tom: Sticky notes.   Michael: Yeah. There you go. Alright, Pierre, what's your favorite breakfast cereal? And please don't say like the last pizza episode. I don't like breakfast cereal.   Pierre: Well, okay. I don't eat breakfast cereal for breakfast. It's more of a dessert. If I'm going to eat cereal, it's going to be before bed.   Michael: I don't always eat breakfast cereal, but when I do it before bed.   Emil: I'm with Pierre man.   Tom: I like that tip. I like that take, unless it's magic spoon. Go ahead.   Pierre: Hmm. Chocolate granola, chocolate hazelnut granola.   Michael: Nice, particular brand?   Pierre: Oh man. It doesn't matter, really. I was raised on coupons, so whatever's on sale.   Tom: Michael, you got one?   Michael: You guys are all healthy. I'm like cocoa puffs fan. I like my milk, but I prefer it to be chocolate. So that's really all it is. It's just a vehicle to get more chocolate milk. I don't really care how it tastes.   Emil: That is true. Just gives you chocolate milk at the end.   Michael: That's right.   Tom: I had a roommate, shout out to Carson Mobly. His, uh, he had this quote about food is just a vehicle for sauce.   Michael: I've always felt that way about carrots and celery. It's just like, how do I get bar ranch into my mouth in a faster, more efficient way.     Tom: It's just a vehicle for sauce.   MIchael: That's great. All right, everybody. That was our episode. Thank you so much for listening. If you liked the episode, feel free to give us a rating or review wherever it is you listen to podcasts. Also feel free to subscribe so that you get the most up to date episodes automatically downloaded to your listening device. We look forward to seeing you on the next one. Happy investing!   Tom: Happy investing.   Emil: Very formal, happy investing.  

This is our first ever AMA, where we answer listener submitted questions.  --- Transcript:   Emil: Hey, everyone. Welcome to another episode of the remote real estate investor. My name is Emil Shour and I am joined by Tom Schneider, Michael Albaum. And today we are doing our first ever AMA, ask me anything. So we posted an episode, a short episode last week, asking you guys to submit any questions you have to us. And, we also posted on social. So we've got a combination of people dialing in people asking us questions on social that we're going to tackle in today's episode. So let's start answering some questions.   Theme Song   Emil: All right, guys, tell me how excited are you to answer these listener submitted questions today?   Michael: Before Tom goes, I'm the most excited I win.   Tom: Aah, I'm really excited. And honestly, I think this can be kind of a recurring segment. So some of the stuff that we all do is we also do webinars with rooftop webinars, go check it out. Really great webinars. Anyways, we just like save time at the end for questions. And there's always so many good questions that we don't have time for. It's like it could be its own segment. So I think this whole AMA thing on the podcast could have some legs and be as core sort of a recurring thing. Like maybe we throw an episode in the middle of the week or talking about this before. So with that said, do not stop submitting questions. Just keep firing them in, and we will get to them. I think it could be a longterm thing that we do on the podcast.   Michael: We're going to start a question bank, so to speak. So it keeps sending the questions like Tom said, and we will get to them as soon as we can. Whenever we have time on these AMA episodes, I think it's just so great because the whole point of this podcast was to give the people what they want. And so now that we're getting questions directly from listeners, I think that's super, super valuable. And chances are, if you have a question, somebody else has it as well.   Tom: And I mean, what's fun about it is we as the host, like have some experience, but if there's stuff that's like outside of what we know we're going to bring in folks to help answer those questions. We have access to a lot of resources and a lot of smart people, so do not be shy about if it's a question, a little more novice or it's a little more advanced, we will get the right people in front of the microphone.   Emil: Yeah. And we actually, we've got a lot of good questions. A lot of these I'm curious about myself, so I'm hoping maybe you guys can help answer them. Cause I'm like, Hmm. Some of these are really good. I don't have experience with these. So, all right. Let's start, let's start tackling. Some are the first one we have is submitted by Shailen. Let's, listen to that question right now.   Shailen: All three of you have spoken about how you live, I think in Southern California, but you manage properties all over the country. How are you familiar with those other areas? Have you lived there before? If not, is there, do you travel there to figure out what a good neighborhood is? Rootstock has neighborhoods, but it's hard to know exactly what these mean for renters. If you've never lived there or visited there, can you elaborate more on the remote investing concept? Should you have three to five properties in one city or town before you go to the next town? Or are there some locations where you only have one property that you own?   Emil: All right. So great question all around. How do you choose a market as a real estate remote real estate investor? So this is a massive topic and we actually covered it on a previous episode, episode 21 called the art and science of choosing a real estate market, where we do a deep dive on how do you actually choose a real estate market? It's a long conversation. We spent about 40 minutes talking about it. So Shailen, definitely recommend you go check that one out. Some of the other things you asked about, do you choose one market and buy one property there or do you choose a market and buy several from personal experience? I have, but single properties in different markets. I have markets where I just have one property and I actually recommend people not do that. Now, just from my personal experience, I think it's probably better to choose one or two markets get really knowledgeable on that. Know what properties sell for. You're just, it's harder to be good at many markets versus choosing one or two and, and getting really good there. So even though I've done the one property in multiple markets, it's not necessarily what I recommend for other people. You guys have anything else to anything that there?   Tom: Yeah, you don't necessarily, I mean, just, you know, we had that episode, but to kind of just a Tom note on the topic is you don't necessarily have to go to the market, but have some parameters in the way that you're selecting a market. Be it population, be it like what type of economy is going on and diverse economy. So don't do the, throw the dart at the map method, like have some insight on how you select a market, but you know, you definitely don't need to, necessarily to go there and also to get educated on the market with regards to the different pockets and know what kind of expected returns that you would get be it gross yield. So when you're evaluating a deal, you have some context of this is a good property based on this area, or just wherever you decide to do an investing in market, just get educated on the market. Okay.   Michael: And just to echo that Shailen last thing that I'll add is if you're going to be remote investing, you're going to be relying on a lot of people to be your eyes and ears. Anyhow, most notably is probably going to be your property manager. So this is a great opportunity to start putting that relationship to the test and utilizing people that are remote. Anyhow, because if you go, if you need to go and physically be there in order to make decisions, well, anytime a big decision needs to be made. If you need to go get on a plane or get in the car and go drive there, that makes for just a tougher ownership process. So just consider that when you're thinking about investing at a distance property, managers can be your best friend   Emil: And Shailen asked about the Roofstock neighborhood rating. And so for people who aren't familiar with that, Tom, can you give a background on that? I know you have on previous episodes and you always describe it very well.   Tom: Neighborhood score, excellent point. So I think in a future episode, we're going to bring on someone from the data science team to get a little bit more into the weeds, but at a very high level, Roofstock pays a bunch of money for data. A data that has to do with historical population changes, changes in the economy, crime school, as well as forecasting out. So the neighborhood score is the synthesis of all that data that Roofstock collects. And it presents a simple one to five star score of five being, wow, this is a neighborhood that we think would make a great investment with regards to lower risk and better opportunity for appreciation where a one-star would be higher risk though. So that is the neighborhood score at a super high level, but I'm writing down as a note, we're going to bring on the data science team on an episode and grill them into the details of the Roofstock neighborhood score.   Emil: Awesome And again, for anyone who wants a real long, deep dive of how to choose a remote market, make sure you listen to Episode 21 called The Art and Science of Choosing a Real Estate Market.   Tom: All right, Robin from Wisconsin says, I love the show. You guys are super helpful in past episodes. You guys have mentioned you prefer investing in Metro areas versus suburban. How do you define Metro and why is it your preference? Do you consider cities with populations close to 200,000, like Akron, Birmingham, Greensboro to be Metro areas? Is there a population cutoff? So I'll take the first stab at this when I think of a Metro and I'm sure there is like a technical definition for that, but I think of a collection of cities that would like make an area. And also just to be clear, like, I don't think suburbs are bad. I think rural areas are a little bit risky just because there's typically not a very diverse economy, but I think suburbs are great. And actually a lot of my investments are in the suburbs of big cities, but back to kind of asking about defining a Metro, I think of it as a greater area. So if I'm thinking about Dallas, I would be inclusive of Arlington Fort worth. They're all kind of like within striking range of each other. I live over in Northern California in the suburbs of San Francisco. And I would say the Metro of that, you know, San Francisco would be Oakland, San Jose, Walnut Creek, Concord. So I think of Metro as kind of the broader, this wouldn't be too crazy of a drive to do, you know, maybe like an hour to drive across that area.   Michael: To piggyback off Tom's point. I don't have a population cutoff. I don't really think about Metro in the traditional sense because in different parts of the country, it can mean different things to different people. And so I'll usually call a property manager and say, Hey, if someone's going to work in the main employment corridor or whatever that looks like, whether it's financial district, that's the downtown area I'll ask, where is someone willing to live? Where are people that are working here living? And if the property manager tells me, Oh, and these areas great, that's my radius. If you will. I've invested in pretty rural areas, several hours outside of st. Louis. And there wasn't a whole lot of economy there, but there was a military base. And so that for me said, okay, this is good enough. Granted, I was pretty green, not, I don't know if I would make that investment again, but I got really lucky. So I'm less scientific when it comes to identifying a Metro and looking for markets to invest in and the population regard.   Emil: Yeah. I'm with you guys. I mean, for me, it's not even about urban or suburban. I dunno if that was part of the question, more so it's choosing a market that I think is good. And so like you mentioned St. Louis, St. Louis is one I invest in as well, and I'm in a suburb. That's probably like 20 minutes outside of the city. And I'm okay with that. As long as, like you said, people are usually commuting from the suburbs into the city as well. What I care more about is how is that city doing overall in terms of population growth are the returns there for what I'm looking for, those kinds of things. And so one thing that Tom had mentioned in one of our previous episodes that I really like is, is it a big enough city where there's at least one professional sports team? I think that's kind of like 1% rule, 2% rule. I think that's a great just first sniff test to make sure a market is even worth investing in, at least for me, I know people will invest in some of these, some tertiary markets let's call it like a Birmingham or something where there isn't..   Tom: We're going to count AAA base And the Birmingham bombers or whatever they're called. That counts, their in.   Emil: They're going to break through to the MLB soon   Tom: AA baseball is smaller, but AAA, it counts. Yeah!   Emil: So, you know, there are people investing there who are doing really well, but just for me personally, I've always liked that as a good test. Like, is there even a professional sports team? Is this a big enough city to have a professional sports team? And those are the kinds of cities I choose to invest in.   Tom: And just to correct myself, it's the Birmingham barons and they're affiliated with the Chicago white Sox from 1986 to the present. Yeah. So go ahead. Continue.   Emil: That's it. I'm done.   Michael: All right. Let's move on. Alright, Maddie from Facebook is asking and big shout out to Mattie. She's a friend of mine. She says, what is your advice for a first time home buyer looking to invest in real estate or buy their first property? So I talk a lot in the Academy about this and something that's kind of a hybrid of the two, because it's not necessarily a black or white decision of, I have to invest in rental property, or I have to purchase a property for me to live in is a house hack. And so if you are willing to kind of be a bit of a landlord in your own home, how's, that can be a really great way to go. And for those of you who don't know what a house hack is, basically what it involves is buying a property that has more space or rooms than you need for yourself or your family and renting out the other space or rooms.   So whether that's buying a four bed house and renting out their three rooms or buying a duplex triplex or quad, you can live somewhere and make cashflow alongside living potentially for free. So it's a really great way to get involved with real estate investing as well as tackle having a to live. And so if that's not within your budget, something that I talk a lot about is that I invested out of state for 10 years and was renting the whole time. And so in my market that just made sense to do. And so I said, you know what? I'm going to invest in, invest and invest and generate enough cashflow to ultimately at one point in time, purchase a property and have my cash flowing assets pay for that primary residence, which is something I've been lucky enough to have done.   Tom: Yeah. Similar situation I rented for a while, while owning rental properties. I think you're right, Michael, in that it's a product of where we live in that getting into a house to own and live in is just wildly expensive versus being able to buy an investment property. But my piece of advice would be two parts. One have a process, have a buy box. And so you're making these decisions, not subjectively. And the second one would be to have a bias for action. And I've been saying there's a lot lately. I think a lot of people get into paralysis by analysis. They overthink it. They're trying to make their best deal, their first deal. But that's, I guarantee you, that's not going to be the case. And there's just so much value to getting into the game.   Michael: Put me in coach, give me a chance.   Tom: Yeah.   Emil: Yeah. I love what you guys mentioned here. My only addition here, and this is a personal opinion, a lot of people might look at their primary residence as an investment. And I never look at it like an investment. I think it's a place where you call it your own. It's a place to raise your family. And there's a lot of benefits of owning your own home. It might end up being an investment, right? You could choose somewhere that appreciates. And if you think about it, your mortgages in a way, like some for savings as you pay down your loan and you build some equity, but considering that they front load a lot of the interest in your principal, payment is low in the beginning. I don't see it as much of an investment. So if you're looking at this as which one is the better investment, I think you're better off going and buying rental properties. Cause those are, you treat those like an investment, whereas your home, it's a personal decision that you make because you want a home. You want to, for whatever reason. So that's the only thing I'd add here.   Tom: I'm going to digress just a little bit. It's really funny. The offer making process of an investment property versus your personal residence. Cause like with an investment property, it's like, you know, I feel really good saying no and walking away, this is my firm number. Oh, you don't want, I'll get outta here. And then with your personal property, it's like, you know, you have your significant other. And it's like, Oh, they countered this much. I'm like, Oh, we should probably do it. I really want that house. The psychology of the negotiation process is just, I'm not good at doing it on my personal property, but for like my investment properties, I'm pretty disciplined. It's just really funny how the psychology of it is pretty different.   Emil: A hundred percent   Michael: Just to add to that. The primary property that I bought, I knew that it would one day become a rental. So I evaluated it like a rental. And so I was able to go in with the offer because I would have that same issue Tom so I treated it like a rental throughout the entirety of the process.   Tom: Incepted yourself   Michael: That's right!   Emil: It's such an emotional decision buying your primary residence. You know, you walk in, you're like, we love this. We love the location. We love the kitchen, the layout. And you're like, it's, it changes things. It becomes an emotional purchase, not one that's necessarily rational. All right, next question is from an anonymous voicemail. We bats. So let's listen to it on that one.   Anonymous: Hey there Roofstock. What's the best type of loan or a short term, single family home, an arm, a balloon loan, 30 year fixed, what would you guys recommend. Thanks.   Tom: All right. So good question. So when you say short term rental, that could mean a couple different things. Is it a short time horizon that you're owning the property? Cause I think that's really relevant for the type of lending that you're getting. If you're talking about short term rental, as in just like a vacation rental, I would say, get, you know, whatever best terms you can get, I'm going to riff for a second on your hold period. Cause you can get a lot of cost savings in thinking about what type of loan to choose if you know, how long you want to hold the property for. So if you're planning to hold this with like a five year time horizon, that could be a good scenario where you would get an adjustable rate mortgage like you were referencing, just because the rates that you can get with an adjustable rates, those during that initial period can be significantly less expensive. There's risk in that if you're planning for a longer hold time, say like a 10 or 30 or whatever, how long, just because after that initial teaser period, the rates will jump up to whatever market rate is. So you get yourself in a little bit of risk. So my answer to your question and to paraphrase really quickly is if you plan to hold for a short period of time, it would definitely be advantageous to look at what kind of rates you can get with either a five to one arm or a 10 to one. But if you're planning to hold for a longer period, I wouldn't recommend that just because it's hard to say where interest rates are going to go and you're going to be subject to wherever the market rates are at. And if it is like a short term, as in like a vacation rental, I'd say get whatever best rates that you can get according to your planned hold time.   Michael: Piggybacking off Tom's answer. I think whole time is really the end all be all the determining factor here. And what's going to dictate kind of looking backwards. What type of loan you should get. I would say that if your whole time is five years, look at a seven year arm. And if your whole time in seven years look at a 10 year arm, because we have no idea what the market conditions are going to be like in five years from now. So you don't want to be forcing yourself to sell a property in five years because well, the market's in the tank. And so you can't sell for... Can't make a profit on your deal and interest rates have gone up. And so that will often lower sales prices and purchase prices because their purchasing power has been diminished. So give yourself a little bit of breathing room. I would say above and beyond what your plan hold period is. And also a lot of times the savings to be held on arms aren't materially significant. And what I mean by that is if you're different than monthly payment is 50 bucks a month, you've got to decide for yourself, okay, is that $50 a month savings with a lower interest rate, worth it to have a shorter term interest term versus getting the 30 year fixed, which you know is never going to change the life of that loan. You could always refinance if rates drop that kind of thing. So the 30 year long time horizon should be significantly more expensive in order to deter you into an arm, I would say.   Emil: All right, next question is coming from Elan, who submitted on Facebook, Elan is asking, how can we estimate flipping costs? How deep should we go into flip? I, how much should we spend on a remodel? All right. So Elan's question is around flipping costs. How do you estimate those out?   Michael: There's a really great book that Bigger Pockets put out that's titled Estimating Rehab Costs. I'm pretty sure that's the title. And I think that can be a really great place to start. Um, and there's no substitute, I would say for getting a quote, an estimate from contractors and get numerous quotes and estimates and bids from numerous contractors, because everybody's going to have a little bit different price. That would be your best way as to how to estimate those costs. And then also chatting with local investors, local property managers, as to ballpark costs, they're going to have rough ideas of what things cost in that given market. And that's going to vary from market to market. So we can't say, Oh, do we have a house in San Francisco is going to cost the same to rehab a house in Northern Kentucky. Those two markets just aren't the same.  And as far as how far to go on your rehab or on your remodel, that also, I would suggest talking to your property manager because they're going to be able to give you some insight into what upgrades are going to bring you the most rent. Also chatting with an agent about what upgrades are going to bring in the most resale value. Once you've targeted your demographic, who you're going to sell to whether that's owner occupants or whether that's in other investors, because an investment flip is very different than an owner occupant flip. So that's what I would say on that.   Tom: Yeah. And my feedback, a really common process for these type of flippers is you partner, you have a general contractor who knows exactly what you're doing that you trust and you have some sort of relationship with, and you get a property in contract and during your inspection contingency, that's when you can have him go and price everything out. So you have that contingency to get out. If the deal doesn't pencil out, but the real key takeaway is don't buy a property and then try to figure out what the costs are like, have that as a part of your process is during your transaction contingency. So you can get out if it doesn't pencil, you know, you make your best guess when you're submitting an offer on what you think the costs are going to be. And that's where the, you know, books like Bigger Pockets books is really great. But once you actually have money, skin in the game with an earnest money deposit and you're in a transaction, you want to get that number of what it's going to be. And sure, there's sometimes going to be surprises of when they open up a wall or whatnot, but you're putting your best foot forward during the transaction period of getting an actual cost from contractor partner or, you know, vendor that you're using, that you can use real numbers when making that decision to close the transaction. So that would be my feedback.   Emil: Cool. And then, yeah, last thing is, you know, if you're working with an agent in the area and they're going and looking at homes for you, depending on how you're buying. So one thing I like to do when I'm vetting agents is ask them if they are not like, can they walk through the property and give you at least some idea of estimation, right? Like, okay, a new floor, this much square footage, how much is that going to cost? A lot of them will actually be pretty upfront with you. They'll say I'm not really good at that, but I have a general contractor I work with who can come with me when we inspect it and look at it and do all of that. So that's kind of one thing I like to vet and ask for. Just cause again, we're relying on a team boots on the ground there. So leveraging their knowledge and experience to help us make all these estimates. All right. So we still actually have a lot more questions that we didn't get a chance to go through today that we're going to cover in a future episode, like Michael mentioned, keep submitting these questions. We'll just keep doing future AMS to tackle whatever questions you guys have. And with that, we'll catch you guys in the next episode.   Tom: Happy Investing   Michael: Happy Investing