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In this episode, Jeff Guylay focuses on the best practices to maximize after-tax proceeds from a transaction. Jeff is joined by featured guest Raj Rathi, co-founder of Rathi Singh Private Wealth Management, to share his insights from helping his clients understand the nuances of how best to manage their wealth. Jeff and Raj discuss the importance of diligently working to articulate one's long-term personal and financial goals and utilize the wealth created in a transaction to achieve those goals. Key takeaways from this episode are: • Planning matters; and the sooner business owners start thinking about these important topics, the better • Assembling a complete team, spearheaded by a trusted private wealth advisor, can materially improve the odds of achieving business owners’ lifelong goals post-transaction through wealth preservation In this episode, Colonnade Advisors addresses the following questions as related to maximizing wealth created in a transaction: Why and how did Raj make the transition from working with corporate clients to wealth management? (02:24) Raj: "My corporate life tended to be transactional, where I would have wonderful client relationships, but sometimes those relationships tend to fade after the transaction has transpired. I realized that I liked to keep those relationships, and I liked to have those flourish a little longer. Also, there is an incredible opportunity for my personal clients to get the value-added services from somebody that can look at their situation from a much broader perspective." "Corporate clients have the benefit of an M&A advisor giving them expert advice on how to navigate every nuance of a transaction. Private clients don't get that same type of benefit. They tend to do things by themselves. There is a tremendous amount of inefficiency that exists in the way private clients manage their assets." "Part of the reason for my transition was the opportunity to work with corporate clients on an individual basis and help them, as a trusted advisor, on the private side. To help them figure out the most efficient structure regarding what happens with their wealth after they sell their business." When should business owners start thinking about post-transaction wealth management structures? (08:35) Raj: The best structures tend to be implemented before a transaction takes place. Colonnade, as a sell-side advisor, is incredibly value-added. You focus on maximizing your clients' pretax return on a sale and also try to highlight that there is a maximization that happens after the sale with the estate taxes and structure." "No client has a crystal ball on exactly when they may sell a business. The best advice is pre-planning never hurts because you don't know when exactly the sale is going to occur." Can business owners work in parallel with an M&A advisor on a sale transaction and a private wealth advisor on post-transaction wealth management? (10:50) Raj: Yes, it can run on a parallel path, but it takes a little bit of work. Business owners will need a good banking team to assist on the actual M&A execution and have a good private banking team that can work with the estate attorney or other key advisors. The critical component here is the more time you have, the better, and if you don't have a lot of time, there are still things that can be done that are quite valuable." Why is it important to consider post-transaction wealth management before a transaction takes place? (12:18) Raj: "Knowing how much of the transaction proceeds you will need for your lifespan, how much of the proceeds you want to give to your children, and to charity, in advance, will allow private wealth advisors more time to research the best approach." "Protecting your kids from creditors or predators can be done pre-transaction, harder to do post-transaction, not impossible but a little bit harder." "With the right structure, the estate tax bill can be alleviated into perpetuity. These are the kinds of things that are better addressed ahead of a transaction." Who is typically involved in the private wealth management team? (14:41) Raj: "Private wealth advisor, accountant, estate planning attorney, and tax advisor." Are there structures to minimize capital gains tax on the transaction proceeds? (18:04) Raj: "Sellers should plan on how much they need in their lifespan. Then plan the amount for gifting to children, grandchildren, or charity. We can use gift structures that are right down the middle of the fairway with what is permissible by the IRS, etc. Sellers would need to check with their tax advisor and the estate planning attorneys, but there are many proven structures." "Marrying what we do on an after-tax basis with what M&A advisors do on a pretax basis can be a home run. With proper structuring, the assets are protected from creditors and predators and can be passed down from generation to generation with minimal tax consequences. What are the three main questions that business owners should be thinking about regarding post-transaction wealth management? (21:40) Jeff: "What are your lifestyle needs? What do you want to give to your kids and grandkids or future generations? And then philanthropically, what do you want to accomplish?" Are business owners generally prepared to answer those three main questions? (25:32) Raj: "Those questions should be asked year in, year out for generations or decades. Many business owners will stress about the transaction side, as they should, but they do not marry it with stressing about the after-tax side, which does matter a fair amount." As a wealth management advisor, what are key factors to consider to advise your clients successfully? (25:50) Raj: "Understanding the risk appetite of the client, which entails hardcore planning and analytics on the client and the family and what they need. We have structural conversations with the client to understand the constraints and navigate that on a real-time basis over many years. Also, building in the flexibility structurally so that clients can adapt over time." Can you give an example of one of your private wealth clients? (26:18) Raj: "One of my clients was a Fortune 500 company CEO who just retired. Over the past ten years, he brought down his estate tax from $30 million to $4 million. The wealth transferred successfully on a multi-generational basis, with charity benefits and tax efficiency throughout the portfolio. That doesn't happen by accident. It happened by continued conversations and being smart about pre-planning and post-planning." Ideally, when is the optimal time for business owners to meet with private wealth management advisors? (31:16) Raj: "A year or two before a transaction would be wonderful, but the reality is most people do not do so for various reasons. When business owners decide to hire an advisor to sell the business, that is a good breakpoint to engage an estate planning person and have a team on a parallel path. Another good breakpoint is when the seller is in the letter of intent phase in a transaction." "Even if business owners engage a private wealth advisor post transaction, there is still a lot of good work that can be done, but it just takes a lot longer." Featured guest bio and contact information: Raj Rathi Email: rajeev.rathi@ml.com Raj Rathi is a graduate of The University of Chicago and Dartmouth's Tuck School of Business. Early in his professional life, Raj was an investment banker with JP Morgan and Lehman Brothers, eventually serving as a co-leader in the investment bank's industrial practice. After working in banking for over 15 years, Raj shifted his business activities to private clients from corporations and co-founded The Rathi Singh Private Wealth Management practice. For the past 15 years, Raj & his team have focused on providing a coordinated approach to wealth management that overlays risk, estate, tax, and portfolio considerations to maximize outcomes for clients. Raj's clientele includes Fortune 500 CEOs, business owners, and individuals with generational wealth. Ultimately he views his role as helping clients understand the nuances of how best to manage their wealth with a purpose and how best to define that strategy based on their goals. Please note that neither Merrill Lynch nor Colonnade Advisors provides legal or tax advice. Please consult with your advisors as appropriate. Host Information Gina Cocking Gina Cocking serves as the Chief Executive Officer of Colonnade Advisors. She returned to Colonnade as a Managing Director in 2014. Gina began her career in investment banking at Kidder Peabody, was an analyst at Madison Dearborn Partners, and an associate at J.P. Morgan & Co. She was a Vice President at Colonnade Advisors from 1999 to 2003. She left Colonnade to gain operating experience as the Chief Financial Officer of Cobalt Finance, a specialty finance company. She went on to become the Chief Financial Officer of Healthcare Laundry Systems, a private equity-backed company for which she oversaw the successful sale to a strategic acquirer. Gina served as the Line of Business CFO – Consumer Banking and Lending at Discover Financial Services. Gina serves on the Board of Directors of CIB Marine Bancshares, Inc., a bank holding company based in Brookfield, Wisconsin, that operates banking offices in Illinois, Indiana, and Wisconsin. Gina received her BA in Economics and an MBA from the University of Chicago. Additionally, Gina holds the Series 24, 28, 79, and 99 securities licenses. Jeff Guylay Jeff Guylay is a Managing Director of Colonnade Advisors. Prior to joining Colonnade in 2000, Jeff was an investment banker at J.P. Morgan in the firm's Mergers & Acquisitions and Fixed Income Capital Markets groups in New York. He also spent several years in J.P. Morgan's Chicago office. Jeff has over 20 years of M&A and investment banking experience and has served as lead execution partner on over 25 M&A and financing transactions at Colonnade. Jeff received an MBA from Northwestern University's Kellogg Graduate School of Management and a Master of Engineering Management from the University's McCormick School of Engineering. Jeff received a BA from Dartmouth College and a BE from Dartmouth's Thayer School of Engineering. Jeff holds the Series 7, 24, 63, and 79 securities licenses. Jeff serves as a director of the non-profit Nurture, an organization dedicated to enhancing the nutrition and wellness of children and families. About the Middle Market Mergers & Acquisitions Podcast Get the insiders' take on mergers and acquisitions. M&A investment bankers Gina Cocking and Jeff Guylay of Colonnade Advisors discuss the technical aspects of and tactics used in middle market deals. This podcast offers actionable advice and strategies for selling your company and is aimed at owners of middle market companies in the financial services and business services sectors. Middle market companies are generally valued between $20 million and $500 million.

Without question, the last several months have accelerated ecommerce adoption and drastically changed consumer behavior. The entire sales lifecycle from finding a prospect to closing the deal has been turned upside down. Now two key obstacles lie in the path of ecommerce leaders… The first is the more obvious, more discussed problem: How do you operationally and technically need to change to meet your customers' evolving needs?  The second key obstacle is not as often addressed, but is equally as important: How do you then communicate to your customers that even in these changing times, you are equipped and ready to meet their new needs?  The binding and laminating business doesn’t sound like it would be ripe with insights into answers to both of these questions, but Jeff McRitchie, the VP of eCommerce at Spiral, is here to prove that assumption wrong.  Jeff has nearly two decades of experience in the ecommerce and digital space. Just last year, his own company, MyBinding.com, was acquired by Spiral, where he now helps lead ecommerce operations. On this episode of Up Next in Commerce, Jeff explains what it has been like merging his ecommerce business with a more traditional binding company. He shares some of the challenges he faced along the way, and what methods and strategies he’s leaned into to find success. Jeff also discusses tips for building out a winning SEO and content strategy, and how ecommerce is playing a larger role across the entire business, including in customer acquisition and content marketing.  Main Takeaways:   The Merge: When a primarily ecommerce company merges with a larger more traditional business, there are a lot of balls in the air to create a cohesive and efficient system. Most of the adjustments have to be made on the side of the acquiring company, which needs to learn how to compete in a digital marketplace. That means that education has to be a priority both internally and externally.    Use Their Words: Every industry has jargon and industry-speak. It’s easy to fall into the trap of using that language throughout your platforms and channels. Instead, you have to meet customers where they are with their own language, and use the words and phrases they use. This will ensure that your customers feel like you are speaking directly to them and it also helps create more longtail SEO opportunities. Content For Now that Pays Off Later: Some of the most-viewed content you create might be consumed after a customer makes a purchase. On the surface, that might make it seem like content-creation is not a good customer acquisition strategy. On the contrary, it’s actually a critical long-term strategy in the sense that good, useful content is critical for brand awareness and building trust, which customers will remember when they need to buy in the future. For an in-depth look at this episode, check out the full transcript below. Quotes have been edited for clarity and length. --- Up Next in Commerce is brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. Respond quickly to changing customer needs with flexible Ecommerce connected to marketing, sales, and service. Deliver intelligent commerce experiences your customers can trust, across every channel. Together, we’re ready for what’s next in commerce. Learn more at salesforce.com/commerce --- Transcript: Stephanie: Welcome to another episode of Up Next In Commerce. This is your host, Stephanie Postles. Today on the show, we have Jeff McRitchie, the VP of Ecommerce at Spiral Binding, My Binding and Binding 101. Jeff welcome. Jeff: Thank you. Stephanie: Thanks for coming on the show. I was excited when I was looking through Spiral's background. It looked like you guys started in 1932. Is that right? Jeff: Yeah. I mean, we've been around for a long time. Stephanie: Yeah. I think that'll make for a really fun conversation because I'm sure that the company and you have seen a lot of transformation over the years, so that'll be fun to dive into later. Jeff: For sure. Stephanie: Tell me a bit about Spiral. What is it? How do I think about what you guys do? Jeff: So Spiral is really a company and we've built ourselves around helping people to bind presentations and proposals. We do a little bit of laminating. We do a little bit of other things, but really we focus a lot on binding. We sell the equipment and the supplies for people to be able to bind presentations, proposals, books and training materials. Those are probably the primary things that come out of it. Jeff: We're a niche player in the office products market is one way to think about it. We're an interesting a hybrid of a company because we sell a little bit in B2B, a lot in B2B, a lot in B2C or B2B to C sort of space. Then we also have some really interesting national account sort of business as well. Kind of a little bit of an evolving company, we're a manufacturer and a distributor at the same time. We have lots of different faces which presents some really cool challenges from the standpoint of being in a digital transformation or Ecommerce role. Stephanie: Okay cool. So how long have you been at the company for? Jeff: My story is interesting, actually I'm co founder of a company called My Binding about 17 years ago. Last year we sold to Spiral. I've been with Spiral for just over a year now in this sort of digital transformation role but with My Binding, which was more of a pure play Ecommerce space. We grew and we were the largest sort of binding Ecommerce player in the market. Then all of a sudden we joined forces essentially with Spiral, which was the largest sort of B2B player in the market. Now we're one force together going after the binding and laminating market. Stephanie: Oh, interesting. What was that process like where you had your own company, you guys were selling online and then joining a company that maybe wasn't doing as much of that. What was that process like when it came to incorporating your company into an existing older company? Jeff: There's definitely some upsides. Suddenly you have increased purchasing power, you have more access to talent and capital. Those were amazing things, but the integration side of things is tough. Jeff: I mean, you're trying to merge systems and figure out how everything works together and learn the language of a new company. Some of that stuff is not as easy as it should be, as well as trying to figure out where exactly are they on the landscape of digital transformation and how do you navigate that when... We were pretty much an Ecommerce or digital first organization. That wasn't really their background. Now we're figuring out how do we be both? That's a pretty big challenge actually. Stephanie: Yeah. That sounds really difficult. What does the customer journey look like for Spiral or what did it look like compared to My Binding? Jeff: I guess the best way to think about it would be that in a B2B, B2C sort of Ecommerce experience, we were really building our business around a large number of transactions with a large number of customers, essentially small transactions to a large number of customers. On the more traditional B2B model, the traditional side of the Spiral business would have been around a small number of transactions to really big customers. Which is pretty typical when you look at this idea of traditional B2B and more like an Ecommerce B2B sort of experience. At least a B2B, to C sort of experience. Jeff: That was the really interesting thing is that we were dealing with customers from all over the country that in almost every industry that you can imagine, but most of them were rather small and we are filling specific needs for those customers. That was fine. On the spiral side you were looking and saying, hey, they had deep relationships. Relationships that went back decades, in many cases, with organizations where they were the supplier of choice. They had complex contracts and all those kinds of things. That was never really part of the Ecommerce world. Trying to figure out how do you merge those two together to get the best of both. It's not easy, but it's really fun actually. Stephanie: Yeah. I can imagine it takes a lot of training for their existing customers who are used to those contracts and used to things being done a certain way. How are you maybe going about training the customers who are used to doing things the old way to be like, Hey, we actually can do this online usually. Jeff: Slowly. Stephanie: Any lessons there that someone can take away if they're going through the same thing right now within their org? Jeff: You don't have to do it all at once. Our approach is really to allow customers to interact with us the way they want to interact with us by giving them better options. Really the priorities for this past year have been to try to integrate systems and then upgrade our footprint so that we can allow the company to put its best foot forward. Really starting with the E-comm side and getting everybody on the same platform and then tied into the same systems. Jeff: Now we're actually probably just a couple of months away from launching our brand new B2B E-com experience for the traditional spiral customers. Essentially we have been allowing them to continue to exist and deal with the company in the way that they used to while improving the experience and then bringing the platform up for the entire organization. One of the things about especially B2B commerce is that it gets really complicated as you tie in lots and lots of systems and a lot of interesting rules. Jeff: Customers want to deal with you in the way that they want to deal with you. What we've found is that we have to build specific experiences for our different customer types. That's the approach that we've been taking. I think that's a good approach from the standpoint of, you're not trying to force everybody into the same sort of experience because not everybody wants to deal with it in the same way. As a large organization that sort of deals with these sort of different challenges, we have to answer questions, like, do you display pricing on the front end of your website or is it a login only experience? Jeff: What pricing do you show people or what price pricing do people get and how do you control that and how do you manage that and how do you make sure that that experience is personalized for individuals? Then there's the age old question, which is really challenging in an organization that has multi channels and that is, how do you deal with the channel conflict? Whose customer is that? I guess it depends on who you would ask because everybody thinks that the customer is theirs. Yet ultimately the customer needs to deal with the organization in a way that the customer feels the most comfortable, not in the way that the organization feels most comfortable. Stephanie: Yeah. That makes sense. What kind of legacy or what things did the legacy customers get hung up on the most when you guys are making this transition and trying to show them that a new platform's coming? Is there similar themes of things that they're like, oh, I don't feel comfortable with that, or, I don't want to move because of this? Jeff: I think when it comes to customers, most customers want technology. I mean, they become comfortable. I think that they don't want to lose functionality. That's been probably one of the hardest things is that even if that functionality wasn't the best, they become comfortable with it and they don't really want to lose that. Yes they do want a best in class experience. One of the hard things that we all have to deal with in Ecommerce right now is that the bar has been raised. Jeff: There are people who want more and more features in terms of their online shopping experience. What you find is that you need to be able to roll these things out, but you need to make sure that it doesn't make things harder on those customers, especially long time corporate customers. They are really dependent on these things working smoothly and easily. That's actually one of the hardest challenges in this process has been, okay, well, we've done a lot of cool things for customers over the years. One off, you build a feature on the website just for that one customer. Jeff: Well, trying to then redo that and not lose a substantial amount of functionality for specific customers, especially large customers that you have these really deep relationships with, that's pretty tough. Stephanie: I was actually going to ask that next, when you mentioned that you were personalizing the experience for certain customers to make them feel more comfortable or hearing what they want and trying to incorporate that into the platform, how do you go about picking out what things you should maybe personalize or give to the customer without going down a worm hole of having a personal experience for every customer? Jeff: Ultimately, we're taking an approach of first saying, what's the best in class experience that we could build. What are the things that are going to be the best for all of the customers and then looking and saying, "Hey, can we in our roadmap put in the flexibility to accommodate for these many things that customers have asked for?" Jeff: How could we build this in such a way that we can add that on or this on? I'm not sure that we always nail it just from the standpoint of... It's pretty tough to keep everybody happy. But we're taking the approach of, hey, we can make it substantially better for everybody. It may not be perfect, but it should be a dramatic enough improvement that they'll recognize that we have their best interest in mind. Stephanie: It seems like some of those requests might also fit other customers as well or it might be something where they're like, oh, I actually wanted that and never thought to ask. It could be helpful when it comes to product development on your side, like technology development. Jeff: Yeah, totally. We had a really good team that we used to build out stuff and we're able to iterate fairly quickly. That's the good news because sometimes we miss something and so... But as long as you can respond fairly quickly to a customer's need, it gives you an opportunity to serve them better and to communicate. But the other really important part of this is really getting the account managers and your sales people involved in this process so you get some really good feedback because one of the challenges that we face at least is that sometimes as the E-com department and on the technology side, you don't always get raw feedback. Jeff: Maybe the stuff you're hearing is from the people who are yelling the loudest, not necessarily from the people who are trying to help you. You're not necessarily hearing about the features that are going to make the biggest difference for most number of users. Stephanie: That makes sense. With this whole re-platforming and new tech stack that you're going to be launching what pieces of tech are you most excited about showing to the customer or bringing online that maybe wasn't there before? Jeff: For us it's really about an enhanced user experience. We kind of been a little bit on the old school side on the traditional B2B piece of it. This gives us the ability to provide a really much better experience end to end in terms of transacting with us. Some of the things that we're aiming for, that are harder than I was thinking they would be, would be real time freight quoting. When you're a B2B company and you've got a distribution network across the country, and you're trying to figure out how much that pallet is going to cost to go to this customer. You think, hey that should be super easy. That's like in the Ecommerce world, until you start to realize, well, it's really important that you get that right. You have to first know where all that's going to ship from. Jeff: One of the biggest things is a really deep integration with our ERP so we can understand where the inventory resides and then how much it weighs and the sizes and all those kinds of things so that we can do that on the fly. Because right now we do an add back type thing. We'll tell you what the freight is later. Customers don't like that. Especially not in the Ecommerce world. Getting that upfront, same with sales tax calculation. Right now, a lot of that's done on the backend and people want to know upfront. That means building a system that has management for resale certificates and all of those pieces. Jeff: I need to understand where are you exempted, where you not exempted and what are you exempt from and all of those kinds of things so that I can quote you and tell you what the sales tax is going to be upfront before you place your order. That's another piece of it that we're excited about. Requisition list is another one where people will have their own custom price list in the system where they can quickly order. We're building a system where they can upload an Excel file with all of their items that they want so they can do quick ordering and quick reordering. Jeff: I guess those would be a few of the systems. Like a quote management system to allow people to request pricing on items and then for us to respond to them live and track that inside of our system is another one that we're building. Those are all areas where we're saying, hey, this could really enhance the user's journey and make it a lot easier for them to do business with us. Stephanie: That's great. Yeah that sounds like some great changes. Have you had any customers trying out the platform as beta testers and have you seen any difference when it comes to average order value or anything? Jeff: We're not quite there yet. We finished design and we're in the midst of development at the moment. I would say that that's going to be one of those steps prior to launch. Will be first to have sort of sales associates and account managers jump into the platform and test it for themselves and then to really get especially key customers in the system testing, and then also giving us feedback. What do they love? What did they not like and how can we make it better for them? That's on the roadmap before launch to be able to say, "Hey is this better for you?" It's funny because on a traditional B2C Ecommerce launch, you'd be focusing so much on the front end. Jeff: Like, the My Account pages are taking just as much time for this site because that's where our customers are living. They want to use the search, but they really want to use the my account pages. They know what they want, and they need to be able to quickly reorder it. They need to be able to see their orders. They need to be able to have the ability to upload those requisition lists. It's a little bit of a twist but getting them, especially into those my account pages so that they can spend some serious time understanding their accounts and telling us what they like or what they don't like is going to be really important for the launch process. Stephanie: Yeah. That's really interesting about focusing on my account page and how much time they're spending there. I'm sure that things like product suggestions or also bots might be very important on that page to help showcase items that maybe they wouldn't otherwise buy when they're just quickly uploading something or just reordering. Are you guys experimenting with some of the suggestion features? Jeff: Most definitely. Yeah. That's part of the vision is to try to figure out and say, okay, we have these deep relationships with customers and they buy specific sets of products. How can we expand to purchasing a product set? How do we get them and introduce them to complimentary products and show them the right pricing and the right place so that they can say, "Hey, I should totally add that on." That's something that I should consider. It's an interesting challenge for us because we have different personas or groups of people that we're dealing with. Jeff: On one hand we're dealing with dealers and they're really reselling product. You're trying to show them maybe categories of product, where do they need to expand because they're buying for specific purposes. Then you have end users and those end users you might want to show them a different size or a different color. We're experimenting with what the best algorithm is that we can use to show them the right products and then also in the right places too. Stephanie: That's great. What tests are you most excited about that you're pitching to everyone right now and some people maybe aren't sure about? Jeff: I'm actually most excited right now about the lead gen side of our business. Stephanie: Tell me more about that. Jeff: When you start to think about what the power of Ecommerce is for a B2B organization. Ecommerce can really become the engine that powers the acquisition efforts of a company. Especially because we can get in front of hundreds of thousands of customers a month, whereas the traditional B2B sales force might only touch hundreds of customers per month. Maybe thousands, but definitely not hundreds of thousands. Jeff: The idea of... What does it take for us to build a really cool robust system to not only bring these leads in but then to try to figure out how do I score these leads and then not only take them and turn them into an immediate sale, but to determine which ones of these really can be turned into those more traditional B2B accounts that we have these deep relationships with that are going to buy from us for years to come, many tens of thousands of dollars, right? Jeff: The really exciting part to me is looking at it and saying, okay we are on the Ecommerce side, on the B2B2C Ecommerce piece of it. We almost have too many leads. We get so much traffic that comes in. So then how do you figure out, take all those leads and build a really robust system where you can make sure that they're getting exactly what they need, and you're closing as many sales as you can, but then how do you figure out a way to pass those accounts up, the right accounts to the right people so that you can build them into a much larger long term sustainable program. Jeff: For us, that means building a really cool inbound sales team that makes sure that we take care of those leads and that we foster them and do all the things that we need to do, but then building an outbound sales team as well that's going to go in and then say, "Hey, let's take these leads and take them to the next level." Then also figuring out a system for passing accounts up and down inside of the organization. You really want to be able to pass a lead up or a customer up that has substantial potential to be either a national account or what we'll call an enterprise level account. Jeff: But you also want the reciprocity of getting those accounts back or the smaller accounts back from the team. I will say that no one wants to give up that account. That's a big challenge inside of an organization when you're trying to say, "Hey, I'll give you some, you give me some." The way usually ends up being is someone... Everyone wants to receive, no one wants to give. But the system only really works if you can give the best to the... But then also that you can receive quality back. For instance, handing back to the E-com team, only the accounts that don't do any business, isn't really a win. Jeff: You really want your enterprise salespeople focused on enterprise level accounts. We're having to sort of wrestle through what does that look like in terms of structure. I don't know that we really have it all figured out yet, but it's a cool idea. Stephanie: I'm guessing there's a way to automate that and create rules. So it, like you said, can go up or down depending on certain criteria from when they're coming in. How are you all thinking about automating that process? So it's maybe less of a salespeople having to give and take and whatnot, and more like, Oh, this is automatically routed to you based on these metrics. Jeff: That's exactly what we're doing. We're exploring machine learning and big data to try to figure out a really good way of scoring customers because using that scoring, you can figure out how to pass customers up. Then a set of rules as well that says if these customers aren't of a certain size or if they have this kind of profile, they really belong in this group. But it's an interesting challenge from trying to figure out where do you get all this data from, and then how do you process it? We're exploring different options right now in terms of what that might look like and how we can best approach that without spending a ton of money before we bet that it actually works. Stephanie: Yeah. That's really cool. So outside of the prospect giving that information, what kind of things are you looking into right now to find the information to help with that scoring process? Jeff: It's actually challenging. You have certain pieces of information that are given to you which you have usually a name and an address. Their email address usually has a domain associated with it, especially in B2B. So you can pull a lot of information from that and you can start to sort your domain, your customers by domain. But really we're looking and saying, okay, well we do know the purchase history. The idea then is, okay, if you were to sort all your customers out, you can sort them on a scale of, let's say a one, two, three. You can say my best customers spend the most money with me. My worst customers spend the least amount of money with me, but that really misses part of the point. Jeff: You almost need to add a second access to this, which is really about customer potential. When it comes to customer potential, we're looking at the idea of what would it take for us to add some big data to this? To understand the size of their company and the profile of the company that they come from, or the industry that they come from as well, because the industry can be really important to us. But then the other side of it is also looking at what they purchased. Like for instance, people who purchase specific equipment or supplies, they're going to have a much higher lifetime value with us because those are proprietary or have maybe a really good pull through rate. Jeff: For instance, it may not be that it's a proprietary supply, but when you buy that machine, you have to go through a lot of supplies to make it worthwhile. You look at the data and you say, okay, that customer has a huge amount of potential. Not because of the amount that they bought from us, but because of what they bought or who they are, the company that they work for or their position. We're looking at the possibility of maybe even extending that into some of the databases out there that help you understand whether people are in market and what their roles are as well. Jeff: Because when you're dealing with B2B, you're not really selling all the time to the company, you're selling to a person inside of the company and that person has a role. You have to figure out, okay, well what role do they play in this picture? That helps us to sort them into personas. If you're dealing with a really small number of accounts, you can figure this out, but we have to automate it because it's not really feasible to do that in a one off basis. Stephanie: Yeah, definitely seems like you're going to need a whole entire data or business operations team who can build those rules out for you and have dashboards. That seems like a big project, but well worth it. Earlier, you mentioned that you guys have more traffic than you know what to do with and lots of leads coming in. Of course my first question is how are you getting this traffic? How are you acquiring potential customers? Jeff: Sure. I mean... We're in a niche industry, right? So that's part of it. We've been around for a really long time. Because of that, at least... Spiral has been around 80 years, My Binding for almost 20 on the web. As you start to look at that, we created a massive amount of content. Thousands of videos and pages. We really have in a lot of ways, the best websites in our sort of space and industry. Because of that, people are finding us to solve problems. What you find is that we built out these websites and either through SEO or through paid search we're driving a ton of traffic to the websites because they convert and that makes a ton of sense. Jeff: We're essentially... We have all of this content and it's really designed around this idea of how do we solve these problems for customers? We can drive more and more of that content. The website deals with a certain number of those sort of leads and converts on its own. The challenge for us tends to be, what do you do with the people that are maybe a little higher in the funnel? You're now talking about making sure they have a really awesome call center that is going to be able to answer those questions. Live chat is really big. We've extended our live chat hours all the way to midnight which is unheard of in the B2B space. Jeff: I want somebody there to talk to somebody if they have questions about products. Especially really big products. We're experimenting with the idea of doing triggers for live chat. We did that and that was really successful for us. We turned on the trigger and said, with the idea of if I walk into a store, somebody says, "Hey, how can I help you?" We did that on the Ecommerce site and we had massive numbers of people that were engaging with us. But the surprise to us was that many of those people were actually much higher in the funnel than we were used to dealing with. Jeff: In other words, they were now engaging with us and they weren't ready to buy. They were in the research space and they had lots of questions. Which is really cool but it just changes the model a little bit and you all of a sudden have to figure out how do I step up for that? How do I make sure that I have the right person to answer those questions? That's part of it. Driving the leads really comes to how do you acquire traffic on scale? Really good high quality traffic for the site. Then the question is, well, what can you do with it? Driving the traffic is really exciting from a standpoint of it doesn't have to be done in one way but you have to be maybe a little bit creative to do it because you really are trying to get in front of people that have problems rather than... Jeff: At least in our space, you don't come to a binding website unless you have a problem that the binding website can solve. It's not exactly an impulse purchase. You're going to show up and you're not going to just browse around. I wonder what kind of binding machines they carry. You probably are on a mission to solve some sort of problem. Right. Whether that's like your bosses told you that you need to buy a binding machine or you need to upgrade the way that your reports or presentations are going to look, or you have a deadline of Friday and you need to get these reports out for the annual meeting. Jeff: These are all sort of really common sort of scenarios and so then the question is, will this product work for my specific needs? That's a question that our customers are constantly asking. Building to that has been a really great sort of acquisition model for us to build around the idea that every customer that comes to us comes to us with a problem that we can solve for them, and then figuring out how do you work backwards to that? What problems could we solve? Then as you start to get creative with that and build massive amounts of content, that content lives out there forever. That's been really a big part of our success, is really the longevity but also the content generation sort of machine that we've built over the years. Stephanie: How has your content... What is the style now today? Is it only educational? Is it humorous and how has it evolved over time? Jeff: We've tried a lot of things over the years. We've tried to be funny. I think we think we're funny sometimes. We've tried a bunch of different things. We've tried to be really educational. It was really hard to figure out the ROI of that. What we've really... If you were to look at our content, we do a lot of content that is really close to the bottom of the funnel, but that would be really helpful. We go with that sort of helpful thing as well as deep. So the idea of building out a really robust and large set of content over the years about products. Jeff: We spend a lot of time making sure that we have all of the details about the product, even to the point where our competitors come to our sites to look up products because they don't have as good of information as we do. That's one piece of the content side of things for us. We have a lot of how to videos. We did a bunch of experimenting around the videos. We found that the videos that people really cared about would basically answer a couple of quick questions. But mostly it was, will this product work for me? How does this thing work? Jeff: We made a whole series of those videos, almost five thousand of them that are really around the idea of how does this product work and a quick demonstration essentially. Usually around a minute long that takes the product out of the box, show someone how to use it. Those really work well for us because they show a customer generally what are they looking for. A lot of customers they want to see what it looks like or they have a machine already and they want to say, "Is that's the thing that works with my machine.? They don't understand our language. Those videos have worked really well for us as well. Stephanie: That's great. Are there any surprising pieces of content that you didn't think would work that did, or surprising sources of customer acquisition that you wouldn't have looked into before? Jeff: We've had a few blog articles that have found traction in the world and the web that I wasn't really anticipating. We've written a lot of content over the years. Most of the blog articles get a little bit of traffic. They're like evergreen content, little bit of traffic over a long period of time. But occasionally we'll end up with one like... Something about how to laminate without a laminator. Stephanie: That's a good one. Jeff: Amazingly, there's a lot of people that look up that and I was shocked. It consistently drives more traffic than almost any other blog article for us. Which is odd. I'm not sure it drives a ton of business because they don't want to buy a laminator, but if you think about it, there's a whole segment of people that have maybe problems that we don't traditionally associate with our business. That would be one thing and then the other piece would be the language piece. Jeff: It's always surprising when I discover that the language that we use internally for our business doesn't match the language of the customer. An example would be we talk about binding covers all the time because we're in the world of binding. A lot of people they just talk about card stock. In the paper world, the card stock doesn't even exist. It's not a thing. People will talk about it. It's cover weight paper. Index weight paper. Card stock is like this sort of crafting term. Yet it's sort of taken on a vocabulary of its own in the world. Jeff: When people search for binding covers, often they'll use that word. That's always surprising to me as well. There's a whole list of those things where people basically they choose to use their own words to describe things. Now you're trying to figure out how do I technically be accurate about this product but really use their language? Because if you don't use their language, then you're not going to show up in search for this stuff and they're not going to feel comfortable with it. Stephanie: That's a really good reminder, especially with generational shifts that the new consumer might be using completely different language than what you're used to. How are you exploring what that language might be? I mean, especially a company that has been around since the thirties, how are they figuring out, oh, this is what they call it now, this is what the kids are saying these days? Jeff: Probably the easiest thing for us is to look through our search results and especially the no results found once because often it's those things. When people are typing in stuff in the search bar and nothing's popping up. You look at that and you're like oh... A smart merchandiser, someone who understands your products really well, they start to make those connections and they're like, oh, wait a second. That's what they mean. Obviously a lot of that like spelling mistakes and things like that. You can fix those in your search engine but when you start to look at it, you start to see sometimes patterns. That's one of the easiest ones. Jeff: The other two that are really helpful for us would be Google autosuggest. Just start typing things in Google and then figure out what Google thinks that you should add to the end of it. All of a sudden you realize, okay, maybe people are searching for maybe a slightly different side of things than we thought they were. Then the other one would be Amazon. Amazon, their product terms are awful. Yet they sell so much. Why? Because they tie into language. They have usually products that have all these different words in the titles that you would never imagine. Jeff: As you start to look at products that are really successful on the marketplaces, you can start to realize, okay, well maybe they're onto something there. They've managed to call out even the most important attributes of that product in a very search centric sort of model or they have really been able to hone in on maybe key words that we weren't thinking of when we've been building this out. Especially because often you start with whatever... A point of reference would be the manufacturer's title. It becomes quite difficult sometimes to sort of detach from that, but Amazon detaches automatically because they let people come up with their own titles for stuff. Jeff: Usually it's the sort of ecosystem that will change the title to try to optimize. Sometimes when you find really successful products that you're realizing, Oh, maybe people do care about that. Stephanie: I love that. That's really good tips to remember about, finding those keywords and how to discover them because yeah, I think even longterm key words would probably be really good for your industry. I'm thinking, how would I Google something like that? I would probably be like how to create a hard cover book for my presentation or something really long winded like that. It's a really good reminder about the keywords importance. Jeff: Then obviously you have your paid search stuff too. You can look and see in your paid search accounts, you can say, okay, what keywords are actually driving? If it was a broad or a modified broad match keyword, you're going to start to dig in and you can say, oh, it actually matched on this keyword and it drove a sale. Again, driving back and saying, okay, what am I driving sales on? It tends to be a really good place to start discovery as well. The only thing, the problem with that is that you might be so far off that you're missing the boat completely. That's where it takes a really good merchandisers to sort of nail that stuff down. Stephanie: I also think it was interesting earlier when you were talking about how to laminate without a laminator and thinking about selling something through saying, oh yeah, you don't need to buy through us. Here's how you do it because I'm sure a lot of people, like you said, are searching for stuff like that or how to fax without a fax machine. I know I've searched that quite a bit, but making fun of it and you might actually be able to convert someone who's like, Oh, I actually just do need a laminator to do this, but having a humorous video around that. Jeff: Yeah. As well as maybe they decide that they want to buy some cold laminating pouches. The idea is, if you can be really helpful in the long term, going back to that idea of video. We've done a lot of videos over the years. We understand that many, many, many times people use our videos post-purchase not pre-purchase. People are going to the video to figure out how does this thing that I already bought work. Well, that doesn't really help us but it does help us in the long term. Jeff: As you look at it and say, it's not going to win us the sale today, but it will win us brand awareness. It does potentially when you do supply sales. Because we're a very supply driven sort of space. If you think about it, if you buy a binding machine, you got to buy some supplies for it. Longterm, we want to have an awareness and be in front of customers so they understand who we are when it comes time to buy the supplies that they need. Stephanie: Just like you said, it's really important to continue to stay in front of that customer so they come to you to buy supplies and remember you guys. How do you go about doing that and keeping a customer retained? Because it seems like it would be easier with these legacy customers who are maybe in these year or three year long contracts. Now when you're moving towards Ecommerce and they can hop around really quickly, it seems like you wouldn't be able to retain customers as easily. So how do you go about staying in front of them? Jeff: I mean, there's a lot to that, the question. To give you maybe a general overview of our thoughts is a big part of our business and something that's really important to us. Especially on the E-com side of things, it really starts with delivering a really awesome experience upfront. So you need to be able to help them find what they need and then deliver it to them in a really reasonable timeframe or meet their deadline. All that kind of stuff. To have the product in stock and all of those kinds of pieces. That's actually harder said than done when you deal with a really large niche category. Jeff: That's the beginning piece of it. Once you've given them that positive experience, or if they've had a negative experience, you use your customer service to basically earn a customer for life. That's actually the motto of our customer service group. Earn a customer for life. As you look at this idea, you say, okay, well, we now have a shot at their business longterm. Now the challenge for us is, okay, what's the best way to reach them? The easiest way is email. We have a ton of automation in our emails. We send emails based upon what you've purchased with replenishment. We send life cycle campaigns based upon... Welcome to the store anniversaries campaigns, and then also best customer campaigns, win back campaigns and reactivation campaigns. Jeff: We have all these automations that go out. They're really helpful. We also have sales that go out on a weekly basis that keep people engaged and keep things front of mind for them. You combine all of that on the email side, but then you recognize that that maybe only gets you half the customers. The question becomes... Because there's a bunch that are opted out in the B2B space, it's really hard on deliverability to get into the inbox. More and more people are using advanced filtering programs to prevent spam from getting through to their employees. Jeff: As you look at that, you say, okay, well, email only takes you so far. So then what do you do? The real question is, back to that conversation we had earlier about lead scoring, how do you determine your best customers or your best potential customers and make sure that you get somebody to call them? To send them a personal email which are easier to get into their inbox or to find another way of touching them. For us right now, the two other ways of touching them that we're sort of exploring, one would be SMS and then another would be direct mail. We're kind of in the process of exploring a test on SMS. Jeff: I'm not too sure how we feel about it, honestly. We have to figure out how our customers feel about it, just from the standpoint of as you look at customers giving their personal cell phones for business purchases and getting text messages. But you think about it, that's a great way to get in front of people and stay in front of them as long as you're going to be super, highly relevant. Then the other piece of it that we do a little bit of would be on that retargeting side of things. If you don't know who that customer is exactly, or don't have their ability to email them, you can at least sort of [inaudible] do it, make sure you're sending or placing ads more frequently into their feeds on different platforms through retargeting. Stephanie: That makes sense. It seems from, especially in SMS perspective, it seems like the only angle you can go about is being helpful. Like oh, you probably are running out of supplies, order now. I don't know, you can get a discount or something. It seems like there's not too many ways for B2B companies to use texting without the customer being like, "Oh, I don't want to be thinking about work right now." Unless it's a trigger for them to be like, "Oh, I need to reorder this or else we're not going to have it on the day." Is that true or are you seeing other avenues? Jeff: Well, the first step would be to be helpful with order cycle. For instance, think about what Amazon has done with allowing you to get a text when the item is delivered. Which is a big problem for a bunch of our customers, especially in pandemic, but even outside of that. It might be delivered to a central desk or to the shipping and receiving area of their company like an alert. Alerts are a pretty good option for us to sort of get our toe in the water a little bit and to stay active. Then yes, something that's personalized. Jeff: Then also, what we're struggling with is what is the best time of day to do this? Probably don't want to send it to them in the middle of their evening. They're disconnected from work, but you also need to make sure that... It's got to be time adjusted for the time that they're in and they also really needs to be followed in their workday probably. Those are some of the things that we're sort of figuring out and testing right now and saying how is this going? Then what's also the most appropriate way to collect where people don't sort of get freaked out. Because it's one of those things, do you want to get text messages from your binding company? I don't know. You got to ask it in an appropriate way. Stephanie: Yeah. That's a really good reminder. All right. We have a couple minutes left and I want to jump into a quick lightning round brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. This is where I'm going to ask you a question and you have a minute or less to answer. Jeff, are you ready? Jeff: Okay. I'm ready. Stephanie: I'm going to start with the hard one first for you because I feel like you're in a game right now. I got to keep it going. What one thing will have the biggest impact on Ecommerce in the next year? Jeff: Well, I think obviously it's COVID. It's pushing people online in completely new ways. It's shifting customer expectations around a whole bunch of different things. It's ruined the Amazon two day expectation, which I don't mind, but it's also shifted the way that people shop, where they're shopping, how they're shopping, and even their mentality. I don't know that we even really totally understand how it's affected everybody yet because everybody's still sort of in this scrambling mode. But ultimately I think as this shakes out, it's going to change the landscape of how we market, but it's also going to change the landscape of how our customers interact with us. Stephanie: I like that. What one piece of advice would you give a new Ecommerce entrepreneur? Jeff: I would probably say stick with solving the customer's problems. I know that tends to be a B2B thing, but it's not really a B2B thing. If you think about it, I need the right sweater for me. Really be customer centric. That becomes really cliche and that's why I go to the idea of solving a problem. You got to think about what sort of value proposition are you offering to this customer that's unique, that is going to allow them to accomplish something that they wanted to accomplish when they came to your site. Jeff: I think by focusing and being really focused on the customer problem, I think you can build out really awesome experiences, and then that deep understanding of your customer will take you really far. Stephanie: That's a good one. What is your favorite day in the office? I'm trying to imagine what a binding company feels like. What's your favorite day in the office feel like? Jeff: I mean, most of my days are pretty full of meetings. A day without meetings would be an awesome day in the office. Stephanie: That's a lot of people. Jeff: I think so. In the world of the binding company, a day in the office doesn't look all that much different than a day in a normal office. It might be a little bit like an episode of the office. Stephanie: That's what I had in my mind honestly. Jeff: Yeah. It's like paper company. There is a little bit of aspects of that, but I mean, we're just like any other company. We're a retailer, we're a distributor. We deal with customers all day long. I would say the other thing, the best day in the office is the day that you have customers that love you and that are just heaping praises, especially on the customer service people and your salespeople. When you have customers who are just singing your praises, those are great days. Stephanie: Yep. That's awesome. I'm glad you mentioned the office and I didn't have to. If you were to have a podcast, what would it be about and who would your first guest be? Jeff: That's a tough one. If I were to have a podcast. I am super passionate about entrepreneurship. I'd probably do an entrepreneurship sort of a podcast about starting a business, growing a business, and the creativity that goes around that. If I could get anybody on the show, I would probably pick an entrepreneur. Maybe I pick the person from lemonade stand or one of those organizations that's really making a big impact on starting up entrepreneurs with kids. That's something that I really love. Stephanie: Yep. I like that. Brings back the memories of my parents make me [inaudible] my neighbor's yard for 25 cents which is well below market. Jeff: I think you could make at least 50 cents for that now. Stephanie: I think so too. All right Jeff, this was very interesting, such a good conversation. So many good tid bits that people can actually use from this interview. Where can people find out more about you and Spiral? Jeff: Sure. You can definitely visit one of our websites. We've got SpiralBinding.com. We have MyBinding.com and Binding101.com. You can find me on LinkedIn as well. Shoot me a message and ask me to connect and I'd love to meet you. Stephanie: Awesome. Thanks so much for joining Jeff. Jeff: You're welcome. Thank you.

Jeff Grass, a serial entrepreneur, explains why it’s important to establish company culture early.PEOPLEGuest: Jeff Grass, Chairman & CEO of HUNGRYHost: Anil Hemrajani, Founder of Startup SidekickTAKEAWAYSDo not underestimate how important it is to set the culture early on versus have it evolve by defaultHave clarity around of who you are, why you exist, and how you want to operateHUNGRY’s 9 Core Values (entrepreneurial, simplicity, people centered, positivity, integrity, gratitude, urgency & determination, quality, efficiency)Tips on establishing culture in your startup: determine what’s important to the business and to the founders. Core culture should be set by founders and live by them (e.g. reference back whenever appropriate).TIMELINE01:00 Jeff: Background (born, school)01:43 Jeff: How he got involved with HUNGRY02:15 Jeff: The Why, How and What of HUNGRY03:25 Jeff: What culture in startups means and why it’s important (fabric of company, environment, mindset, glue, etc.)04:15 Jeff: Lessons learned on why to take culture seriously early on05:40 Jeff: What I would have done differently in past and have now done at HUNGRY (e.g.9 core values, shared expectations, intentionality)07:52 Jeff: What HUNGRY’s 9 core values look like in daily operations (e.g. positivity, reinforcement)11:02 Jeff: Advice on establishing culture in any startup14:27 Jeff: Handling issues (e.g. example of a conflict)16:30 Jeff: Personal time and work-life balance management (stay healthy, prioritize aggressively, turn-off work at/after dinner time, delegate)

Happy Halloween! Phil Hester returns to talk about his collaboration with Jeff Lemire on Family Tree through Image Comics. What is it like collaborating with Jeff? What has a comics veteran like Phil learned from Jeff about story telling and pacing?  We share memories of buying packs of comics at large retail outlets, coverless comics and the best hope for comics to continue entertaining and captivating young readers' imaginations.  Phil and I also catch up on the fate of his cancelled Blood Blister series (Aftershock), his contribution  to DC's Secrets of Sinister House #1 2019 Halloween Special and, finally, the release of The Wrench Omnibus published through Omaha Bound. We continue our Kicking Back With The Creator questions covering what really grinds Phils gears about some people working in the comics industry, his own regret and proudest accomplishment working in comics.    Please rate and review Creator Talks on iTunes To order The Wretch Omnibus More about Family Tree (Image Comics)

Jeff & Will talk about their past week of business decisions and the coming week they’ll spend at the Podcast Movement conference. They also remind the authors in the audience to check out the new Big Gay Author Podcast. The guys talk about the production of The Wiz they just saw as well as the current season of Pose. Together they review Lucy Lennox’s Wilde Love and Jeff reviews Dreadnought by April Daniels. Amber Smith joins Jeff to talk about her young adult novel Something Like Gravity. Amber reveals how the characters of Chris and Maia had been the main characters in different books before she decided they’d be great together in a single book. Amber also discusses how she got started writing, the trademarks of her books and the research she does to create her characters. Complete shownotes for episode 201 along with a transcript of the interview are at BigGayFictionPodcast.com. Interview Transcript – Amber Smith This transcript was made possible by our community on Patreon. You can get information on how to join them at patreon.com/biggayfictionpodcast. Jeff: Welcome Amber to the podcast. It is great to have you here. Amber: Thank you so much for having me. I’ve been really looking forward to this. Jeff: So I reviewed ‘Something Like Gravity’ back in episode 195 and it was the summer book that I didn’t know I was looking for. I’d like you to start us off by telling everybody, in your own words, what this book is about. Amber Well, this book is about a lot of things, but really, at its center, it’s a story about falling in love for the first time and finding yourself in the process. It’s told between our two main characters, Chris and Maia, and both of them are going through a really difficult time in each of their lives. Chris has recently come out as transgender and he’s really trying to figure out how to navigate his life now that everything’s suddenly changing, and he’s also trying to process this really terrifying assault that he survived the year earlier. Maia is dealing with the recent death of her older sister. And so both of their lives look very different, but the one thing that they have in common that brings them together is that they’re both trying to figure out who they are going to become in the face of these life changing events that they’ve been through. Jeff: What was your inspiration behind the book? Amber: There are various threads of inspiration, but it’s funny, I actually started writing this book as two separate books. Chris was the protagonist of one and Maia was the protagonist of the other. And I do generally work on two things at the same time because, if I get stuck on one I can sort of hop over to the other thing I’m working on. I always thought of these as separate books in the beginning and Chris’s story was primarily about coming out, and being queer, and being trans, and trying to figure all of that out. And Maia’s was a story about grief. At a certain point, I think it became too hard for me to continue working on these stories because both of them were super personal. I was drawing from a lot of my own experiences with coming out as a lesbian and also, you know, dealing with the loss of loved ones myself. At a certain point, I thought, you know what can I do to kind of make this easier on myself? And I thought about giving Chris a love interest. And when I started to think about what would be the kind of person that would be really good for Chris, and would kind of balance him out, and all of those wonderful things that happen in a relationship. I immediately thought of Maia – this other character that I was writing, and that’s when I realized, oh my gosh, I think these stories were always meant to be one story. And it just took me a while to realize it. Jeff That’s amazing to me on a couple of levels. I can’t do two projects at once because it makes my head want to explode. But also there’s – just coming back to the title, ‘Something Like Gravity’ is like gravity just pulled between these two stories and brought these two together from the disparate places that you had them. Did the characters fundamentally change when you brought them together or did everything just click into place once that happened? Amber: Well, not necessarily so. I think the biggest part was that I had been working on these stories for so long. I don’t think much of my original writing made it into the final book. I think doing that writing on both of the stories prior to lining them as one, really helped me to get to know each character in that sense because, I knew each of them so well, I knew their voices, I knew their histories. It was sort of easy to bring them together, but I had to rewrite everything better. I think it was almost like telling the stories of two people I knew really well already. Jeff: Any chance that those original stories get to become prequels or something? Amber: Oh my gosh I love that idea. Something to think about. Jeff: As you noted, I see both Chris and Maia have these weighty things that they’re dealing with on both sides. What was your process to present that authentically to the readers? Amber: I always, whenever I’m starting a story, I begin with my own experience and I always sort of view writing as therapy in a way. So like Chris and Maia’s experiences start out as something very real that’s happened in my life. But then as I write them they become something else. So, I don’t know. I think I just always have in the back of my mind the roots – like emotion, or the emotional world that I lived in as kind of the parameters for this story. And so hopefully that helps to keep things feeling real and authentic. Jeff: And then you put the love story in with this. The way that you counterbalance what they’re going through with this super sweet love story. It was unique to me how that worked because for some of the story at least, they’re almost not dealing with their issues because they’re finding this in each other. How did that kind of all mix together for you? Amber: I think one of the things I’ve realized as I was writing the book, separately in the beginning, was that I was focused so much on the pain that each of these characters felt. I’ve written about trauma, and assault, and grief, in the past and it felt like I was sort of rehashing – or reopening old wounds of my own. I just thought I really need to do something different here. And it took me a while to figure out that I wanted this to be a love story because, as you know, it took me a while to kind of wrap my head around why was I writing it that way in the first place? I had this switch flipped in my mind when I started to think about the love story aspect of, you know, what I’d love to do with this book is make love be more powerful than the pain that each of them were experiencing. And so that kind of helped me to steer this story in a different direction. And then when I really started thinking about it, that love, and connection, and relationships, those are the things that really helped me heal during the hardest times in my life. And so I think it can be so easy to focus on the darkness sometimes but, when I really thought about even my own life, I realized the things that really got me out of those dark places were my connections with other people, and learning how to love myself, and falling in love for the first time. And so that became something I want to do – explore more than that other side of things. Jeff: And it’s interesting too that essentially the secondary story for both characters is their relationship with their parents. For Chris it’s his parents coming to understand that Chris has come out as trans, and for Maia they’re going through the same grief that she is, having lost their daughter. How did you approach layering that in? Because, again, you’ve balanced this out so beautifully, how it just all kind of ebbs and flows together – but there’s a lot in play here. Amber: Oh thank you. You know, I think the family dynamics with each of the characters – I will say that’s the one thing that kind of carried over when I was working on these as separate books. In my original ideas for both Chris and Maia, one of the big things that they were dealing with were these really complicated family issues that were going on. Yeah. So I think I just I always knew from the beginning I wanted part of their journeys to be trying to work out all of this messy, complicated, emotional stuff with their families and with themselves. I don’t really know how I layered it in because I think it was just always in the back of my mind that that stuff needed to be there. And I had thought of Chris and Maia’s relationship, the way that they grow and discover more about themselves, as kind of the framework of getting to the place where they were able to deal with their family stuff because they evolved too. Jeff: Did you have to do a lot of research? In your acknowledgments in the book you list out a whole bunch of people and things that you looked at to help craft all this, and so it seems like there was quite a bit that went on to create the characters, and create the situations, and then, as we kind of talked about it a little bit, getting it authentically on the page. Amber: For this book in particular I really reached out to a lot of different readers and friends, people who have gone through similar things to Chris and Maia. So I had friends, who identify as trans or non binary, read different sections of the book looking at Chris’s perspective. I even had a professor at one of the universities here in North Carolina really go through the entire manuscript with a fine tooth comb because, while in particularly looking at Chris’s side of the story because even though I kind of started with a kernel of my own experience, for Chris as a queer person. I’m not transgender, so I wanted to be very careful that I wasn’t doing anything in my narrative, and my representation, that would be in any way harmful or misrepresenting Chris as a transman. And so that was super super helpful. I found that the areas that I was really worried about in Chris’s story, were not the areas that were pinpointed by my readers as being problematic. I think that goes to show, it really was important for me to seek out those other perspectives, because the things that I thought might be issues were not what they thought were issues. So yeah, that was a really big process… getting that feedback from those other readers. Jeff: One of the things I’d mentioned in my review, what struck me about the book, is a sweet love story, two characters with trauma, and yet the book itself kind of felt like this lazy summer vacation. I think some of it is because of where it set. So it’s a small town, and you’ve got Chris and Maia essentially living on farms and separated by this field, and I could just envision hanging out on the porch, and just kind of letting the summer go by. Bike rides, and these adventures they went on – where they went to the to the adjacent town to check things out. And it really kind of held the story together – and kind of kept it in this very innocent place. Was that deliberate, or did it just happen that way, because of how it all pieced together as you were going? Amber: You know, that part of this story really was deliberate. Once I started trying to figure out how to weave Chris and Maia’s stories together, I really sat down and I did a lot of pragmatic planning and plotting, which is not something I usually do at all. I think I knew trying to combine two stories, I really had to know where I was going because it could get really confused. So one of the first things I decided was the setting and the timeframe. I decided I wanted it to take place in a rural North Carolina town, which Carson is fictional, but it’s based on a lot of the small towns on the outskirts of Charlotte where I live. I knew I wanted it to take place across the course of one summer and I did that partially because of that feel that you’re talking about. I really wanted to give Chris and Maia a space where it felt like their lives and their realities are somewhat suspended for a little bit of time, so that they could have the freedom to figure out what they’re going to do, figure out how to process what’s happened in their lives. And I always felt, growing up, summer is sort of this weird Time Warp kind of area, where things just don’t happen in the same way as the rest of the year. And so I definitely wanted to bring in that kind of like lazy feel because it feels like we have all the time in the world, but of course, we know summer only last so long. That’s also a little bit of a ticking clock I could put in there. Jeff: What do you hope readers take away from the book? Amber: I really wanted readers to be able to look at Chris and Maia’s story and find pieces of themselves in each of these characters. Even if a reader isn’t trans, or queer, or grieving, I hope that they might be able to find some commonality with Chris and Maia. And maybe that’s just the simple fact of being able to relate to falling in love for the first time, but that for people who do identify with the things that Chris and Maia are going through, maybe if the reader is trans, or non-binary, or going through a major loss, or some kind of upheaval in their lives, I would hope that they could look at Chris and Maia as a way of knowing that there are people in the world who understand what they’re going through and they’re not alone. Jeff: Let’s talk a little bit about Amber Smith’s origin story. What got you into writing and coming specifically into writing these powerful young adult books? Because this is not your first one that deals with weighty material. Amber: I sort of came to writing in a very roundabout way – as a lot of people do. So, when I was growing up, I always wrote. I always kept journals. And when I was a little bit older, like a teenager, I wrote poetry, but all of my writing was very personal and not something I would ever show anyone. It was more like therapy. Like, even when I was a little kid, I remember the little diaries. And it was like I would just write about what happened that day, just sort of like dumping everything out of my head. So I was actually much more involved in the visual arts all throughout my life. That’s what I really focused on when I was in high school. I ended up going to college for painting. I had my BFA in painting and then I went on to get my master’s in art history because I had worked in some art gallery settings as an undergrad and I was like, “You know, I think I want to be a part of this whole art world in this way, maybe not as an artist, but as someone who kind of brings art to people.” And so I did that for a long time. I was working in my role as a curator, and during that time I was doing a lot of writing for my work, but it was more writing about art history and biography-type writing. Even though I loved what I was doing in the art museum world, I really missed working on my own creative stuff and so it was then that I really looked at writing as, not just a therapeutic outlet, but it became more of my creative outlet, and that’s when I started working on my first book. That first book actually started out as very much therapeutic writing and then the longer I spent with this story, it kind of morphed into something more fictional, and I’ve I guess I was sort of hooked at that point. I realized, “Wow, you know, I can really do a lot with fiction.” And it was really healing, just like when you read a fictional book, it can be a lot easier to sometimes relate to a fictional character and have empathy for their situation, and kind of see the big picture more so than we can sometimes do for ourselves. And that’s sort of what writing became for me very early on. That’s how I got here. Jeff: That’s a good story. I like how you went from essentially one creative expression to another – from creating works of art to now creating a different work of art, if you will. Amber: ‘Something Like Gravity’ is the first book where I’ve been able to kind of bring in some of my art background. So that was really fun. Jeff: Yeah, with Maia’s photography, I could see how that could bridge that gap a little bit. Amber: Yeah. Jeff: What would you say is the trademark of an Amber Smith book? Amber: I would say the trademark is the story is going to be emotional. It’s going to deliver some difficult stuff and it’s going to be very real. So I definitely don’t like to kind of sugar coat things all that much, so it can be a little gritty. Jeff: Gritty is a good word for it actually, having now read this one. Who are some of your author influences? Amber: Oh, you know, some of the authors who really influenced me the most are the authors that I read when I was in high school. I remember YA wasn’t necessarily a thing yet when I was a younger teenager, but in my senior year of high school I remember there were several books that came out right at that time and I was a big nerd, so I volunteered at my school library, and my librarian was like my best friend, so she would give me all of the books that were coming in – for me to take home and read her first, before anybody else. I remember reading ‘Speak’ by Laurie Halse Anderson. And that book really stands out for me. It just changed my life because I think it was one of the first times I remember feeling like a book truly brought me this deep sense of comfort. I was seen and understood. I was not alone. And that really stayed with me. And then there were other books that came out right around that time, ‘The Perks of Being a Wallflower’. That was a huge book for me that I read when I was in high school. Let’s see. Sonya Sones, her debut, ‘Stop Pretending’ came out and it was written in verse. And that was also the first time I had read something like that and it really made an impact. I think back to those books I read when I was a teenager, and the ones that really affected me were those ones that were about really serious issues, and they are the ones that made me feel like I was not alone. There was hope things could get better. I guess that’s sort of where I’m coming from now as a writer. What were the stories I needed when I was a teenager? Jeff: And what’s coming up next for you? Amber: Well, I’m not entirely sure. I have a couple of things in the works. I’m pretty sure what is going to be next is going to be a middle grade book. So, going a little bit younger. So that’s really exciting. I’ve been wanting to kind of explore different genres. I think back, middle school was actually a lot more traumatic for me than high school. So it’s funny I haven’t gone there yet. Jeff: I look forward to seeing what that could be because, over time, I’ve read some really compelling middle grade books. Amber: Yeah. Things that have been coming out recently too are just amazing. Jeff: What’s the best way for everyone to keep up with you online so they can follow along with what you’re doing and when new stuff comes out? Amber: I always keep updates going on my website ambersmithauthor.com, but I’m most active on Instagram. On Instagram I’m @ambersmithauthor. I’m also on Twitter as asmithauthor and Facebook as well. So definitely keep up with me there. I love hearing from readers, and I just I get so excited when I see messages come in from you guys. Jeff: Fantastic. We’ll link up to all those places, the books we talked about, and of course, ‘Something Like Gravity’. Wish you the best of luck with that as this summer continues this year. Amber: Thank you so much.

This week, we discuss the current state of the Bond market, how the larger, commercial institutions affect overall CTA Trend Following performance, how to deal with the fluctuations in currencies when performing backtests, and we also give our thoughts on various Trading exit strategies. Questions answered this week include: does the majority of CTAs get out of their equity positions when the S&P500 falls below its 200-day moving average?  Should you avoid trading markets that perform badly in backtests?  Can a system that is working too perfectly be a bad sign? What are the implications for trading every market in the same way?  What is the benchmark Sharpe Ratio for Trend Following strategies?  Is there a limit to portfolio diversification? Register your interest for our upcoming live event in New York here. You can download your free guide to Systematic Investing, and subscribe to our mailing list by visiting TopTradersUnplugged.com Get a free copy of my latest book "The Many Flavors of Trend Following" here. Send your questions to info@toptradersunplugged.com Follow Niels, Jerry & Moritz on Twitter: @TopTradersLive, @RJparkerjr09 and @MoritzSeibert And please share this episode with a like-minded friend and leave an honest rating & review on iTunes so more people can discover the podcast. Episode Summary 0:00 - Intro 1:45 - Macro recap from Niels 3:25 - Weekly review of returns 12:20 - Top tweets 34:40 - Question 1, Sam: What is the benchmark TF Sharpe ratio? 43:00 - Question 2, Sam: Can there be too much diversification? 53:15 - Question 3, Walter: Please discuss how you deal with foreign currency denominated futures. 58:10 - Question 4, Walter: Since most stocks don’t beat the index or T-bills, shouldn’t shorting be easy (versus the conventional wisdom shorting is hard)? 1:03:00 - Questions 5 & 6, Jeff: What are the risks of using larger (vs smaller) ATR multiples for exits? What kind of exits does DUNN use? 1:08:40 - Performance recap 1:09:40 - Live event update 10/26/19-10/27/19 Subscribe on:

Jeff & Will talk about their upcoming trip to New York City for the Romance Writers of America national conference and reveal the news that they will be among the presenters at the RITA Awards ceremony on Friday, July 26. Will reviews The Masterpiece by Bonnie Dee while Jeff reviews a book Bonnie co-wrote with Summer Devon called The Nobleman and the Spy. Jeff interviews Michael Vance Gurley about his new YA steampunk novel Absolute Heart (Infernal Instruments of the Dragon #1). Michael discusses the inspiration behind the story, what he did to build the world it takes place in and what he hopes for the trilogy. He also talks about what's coming up next for him. Complete shownotes for episode 198 along with a transcript of the interview are at BigGayFictionPodcast.com. Interview Transcript - Michael Vance Gurley This transcript was made possible by our community on Patreon. You can get information on how to join them at patreon.com/biggayfictionpodcast. Jeff: Welcome Michael to the podcast, or back to the podcast I should say. Michael: I'm super excited. Thanks for having me Jeff. Jeff: Yeah. We were talking before I hit the record button that we last had you on in Episode 42 and now we are at 198, it's kind of crazy. So like you did the first time we had you on, you've come up with a book that I didn't even know I needed to read when I first got to read it. So you've got this YA book called 'Absolute Heart'. It's the first book in the 'Infernal Instruments of the Dragon' series. Tell everybody what this is about, both the book and the series behind it. Michael: 'Absolute Heart' is above all else a steampunk book. It's an adventure set in a world where clockwork powered England - in 1880s Victorian era England - is at war, a sort of Cold War, when we first pick up the series, against the Magically Powered Ireland who's been kind of besieged by the Brotherhood of the mage. It's a clock. It's a warlock group that is sort of made the queen subservient to them in ways you have to find out when you read it. And it's really the story about two boys. Gavin the high councilman's son from England and his friends, following him when he has these terrible secrets - he thinks they're terrible - and when they're found out he could be executed for them, for at least one of them. So he does what all teenagers do when they have something awful happen and they think they're gonna get trouble, he runs away and his friend, his best friend Landa who's an art officer, which is a mechanic, a computer engineer and she's a powerful female character that I'm really proud of. And she has his back and challenges him and calls him foolish when he's foolish and she goes with him and some other people who have their own agendas on this quest. Then the other side, the Brotherhood, sends Orion of Oberon who is a young warlock of immense power because he's the nephew of the ailing Irish Queen. They send him off to get the most powerful weapon in the world - the dragon stones and there's a lot of mystery and history about the dragon stones and what they are and what they can actually do, but they want them to end this war in their favor. So of course they have a meet cute, or at least I hope people think it's a meet cute. They have to decide like, are they going to get together? Will they/won't they? Of course, there's the will they/won't they thing. I'm really excited about the steampunk adventure and it sets off and is set to be a trilogy so I'm really excited about that, and hopefully people will like it - the inclusion of fairies and the air steamships and all the wonder that is steampunk. Jeff: Steampunk it's so not really anything I read... I dabble in it periodically, but something about Gavin and Orion and the bad ass friend you gave Gavin. Full disclosure to the listeners, I read a very early draft of this. You have a lot going on in book one, what you've parroted back now, into a more condensed story, but how did all this coalesce and come together and what was the inspiration? Michael: You really should pat yourself on the back because your viewers should know that you read an early ARC and gave me notes, and edited, and really kind of dissected it for me - like, wherever it was messy you, like a good editor said, "That's messy." The research starts with reading steam punk books and reading a lots of YA, which is of course a terrible addiction of mine. In reading all of that steampunk and finding those characters that you like, and you want to write about - because I use Scrivener, you have the photo option to put your vision of the characters, the places, the ships - you put photos in there and I work with a split screen so I can always reference that, so I never really lose track of it. But yeah, it was great looking into all that steampunk stuff and going into like Cassandra Claire's 'Clockwork Angels' series or Scott Westerfield's 'Leviathan' series. And if I can get even a little bit of that spirit I'll be really happy. But it starts with loving steampunk. You really should write what you know and write what you love. I've never been an airship captain but I love reading about them and I love that whole idea. And you know, thinking about like 'Leviathan', that series has a powerful gender bending quality to it, with the girl because she has to, dresses like a boy and acts like a boy in order to have a career - and I love that. I hope I've engendered Landa with that a little bit as well. Jeff: What went into creating your world of magic in Ireland and steam power and clockwork in England, because there's so much that you can pull from to create the steampunk universe. What was your decision to make these things your universe? Michael: Steampunk is - one of the amazing things about it is, an amazing thing about worldbuilding as well, is you can go with historical fiction. You know, like my first book and it's wonderfully creative but you're also stuck with... you can't lie. It's historical fiction, you can make up characters and you can make up some things, but really if you get too far away from reality, people stop believing in what you're writing about with historical fiction. At least I think so. I stuck with the roaring 20s pretty well and that kind of thing. Steampunk is like a little bit to where you're in the 1880s Victorian era. But then you have these advances and you can get creative and wild and all of that. A lot of that came from traveling for me too, like I've traveled to Ireland and I kissed the Blarney Stone, which of course means I'm full of B.S. I guess, the gift gab you know. And then I went to England and I went to Stonehenge and I played around amongst all of the hinges there, because that's where they keep them, and how a lot of fun. And the idea of the magic stones and power and Irish magic and castles - and then of course the troubles with the war between Northern Ireland and England - and I just rolled that back 40 years or so, and brought all that magic and the Stones and the power, I brought all that together and that's really where the idea came from. I also wrote a comic book like 20 years ago that had a lot of the fantasy stuff in it and it never got published but I tweaked it and changed it throughout the years. You can almost say that this part of this book- the backstory, the fantasy magic side - is about 20 years in the making, which I guess makes this a labor of love. Jeff: That's very cool that it goes back quite that far. Michael: Makes me feel old saying it out loud. Jeff: You could have had the idea when you were 5 or 6. What do we have to look forward to as the as the trilogy progresses - without obviously spoiling anything necessarily - but what can you kind of hint at about the story arc? Michael: Well, you know I'm a big fan of sci-fi, and Steampunk is really an offshoot of sci-fi in a way, or vice versa I guess. But, you know 'Star Wars' originally was 'Star Wars' and then they added 'A New Hope' to the title when they were like, "Well, you know Darth Vader is still out there." I mean, you know they gave Luke and Han Solo some medals. But, you know, then you get Darth Vader out there. So I love that idea of there's always more. If you look for it, if you see the little bits, like there's actually Darth Vader and an emperor... we're still at war guys, so come back for 'Empire', and guess what, it's going to get darker and worse and that's really kind of what's happening here - the book sort of gives you an ending but - and I think so does every book [in the series]. It has an ending, but it really isn't. If you're reading it, you know there's a lot more that's about to come down, and we might lose some people along the way, and maybe find some new people that you love, who's together might not always be together. Jeff: So with everything, between the magic and the clockwork and the steam and everything, your story, your book bible for this must be huge. Michael: I used this great British author named Ellen Gregory who did some high seas adventure, and she read an early Edit 2 and gave me some criticisms - which I kept calling British-isms - and gave me some pointers in that, and we were joking about that too, that I have one hundred pages on the parts of a ship... hundreds of pages and you could just bore people to death writing about that. It's like giving that little bit to make it believable, and make it feel fantastic or whatever, and then let it go. And then I just use that incredible knowledge about mid ships and jibs at parties. I can talk about all that stuff at a party now, but you don't put too much worldbuilding in, but it is fun. I do have lots of stuff, like when I'm writing, there's fairies in the book and I did so much research about Oberon, the king of the fairies and all that history. And then my amazing editor Dawn Johnson at Dreamspinner/Harmony Ink - I mean the whole team has been amazing, and each person has challenged me. Which is really part of the deal, you have to kill your darlings right? You have to allow some of your characters to change with some of the professional feedback. And so, anyway, I was able to use that research and pull it in and I still miss stuff, and some of those editors were like, "Hey, you know the name of that person? Shouldn't it be this, for this reason historically?" I'm like, "Yep, I don't know what I was thinking." You know, And so it really takes a village, you know. Jeff: What do you hope people get out of this book? Michael: What I'm hoping to get out of it is enough people interested to get a whole trilogy out of it and to get an audio book. I really want to hear this story come alive - the swashbuckling adventure come alive. I hope people get entertainment out of it. I hope they feel empowered and maybe challenged on their beliefs a little bit, which is, you know, a lofty goal. And it sounds like hubris to say it, but I hope people read it and see the LGBTQ+ world is just like everything else. It's steeped in mystery, and history, and great characters with amazing depth, capable of heroic acts and terrible evils, and everything in between. You know, some people will write a character and be afraid to make the gay character or the trans character do something horrible, but that's wrong. They have to do everything that everyone else does in order to make it real. And so I'm hoping people will forgive me if I do something horrible to a character, or make them do something terribly wicked... you know, mustache twirling - and not, of course, hate the straight characters that do bad things as well. Jeff: Right. Now, you kept a lot of this book in your family, in some ways too, because your husband Jason Buren did the cover and interior art - and the cover is gorgeous. Michael: Thank you. I love the art. Jeff: How did he come to get involved in it an what was it like collaborating with him on those elements? Michael: Well, Jason's an amazing artist and graphic designer. We actually worked on the first one together and we worked on comic books together and what I realized through it - honestly working with Dawn and the great editors, kind of makes you realize some things - you have to back up and state your vision. Say what you want. Show covers of things you like, and things you don't like, and then not micromanage it. Because then what you're going to get is my artistry, which I'm a writer you know, not technically a graphic artist. So you really get your best work if you let the artist kind of figure it out and that's what happened. I let go of the reins of both books and I think that the covers are amazing, if I do say so myself. I think this cover is so exactly what I wanted to be, and I was unable to say it out loud. And that's what a good artist should do in the interiors too. I wanted so badly to have chapter art and I know that people don't have to let you do stuff like that, but [my publisher] Dreamspinner was so amazing. I pitched this idea of clockwork meets fantasy with the Dragon Wing and the clockwork gears together So I'm so excited to show some of that together with the dragon wings with the mixture. Anyway I'm so excited and geek about it. I even got a little gears as text breaks in the art, in the books, it's really fun. It's really gorgeous. But you, know let go and see what happens. That's the idea. Jeff: When you were here in Episode 42, we were talking about a historical m/m hockey romance called 'The Long Season'. This is a total departure. Unless you can talk about the fact that you're dealing with historical times. Had you always seen in your career switching genres so completely? Michael: You know that's a great question. I want to challenge myself to do something completely different every time. And so, like being a new writer, writing historical fiction was crazy. That's too much to take on. I said, "Well, whatever. It's a labor of love, you know?" So then for my second novel, a trilogy? Themed like science fiction? Like, "Oh you're crazy, that's too much. You're not going to handle it." And who knows what we'll see. The first one got picked up, thank you Dreamspinner and I'm super excited about it. I want to challenge myself and I love that genre. So I say, let's do something completely different. People ask me about doing a sequel of 'The Long Season'. We're doing another hockey book. You know, I'm really proud of the fact that I wrote a character, Maggie in 'The Long Season' who was Brett's best friend. Turns out Bret's best friend started off with John Paul, which I'm really proud that people want a Maggie story and I think that's amazing. Who knows when that might happen. I might do that. My grandmother certainly, when she read it before she passed away, she said it can't end here and she's right... another story. And I did all that roaring 20s research... who knows, I might go back, but I want to challenge myself to do something different. I could write another hockey book because I love it and I love the whole romance side of it and who knows. Jeff: I was thinking you need to find a way to introduce hockey into the Infernal Instruments universe. Michael: I mean, there might be some sports related in there a little bit, but like medieval hockey? That would be fun. I mean the 1880s isn't too far away from Lord Stanley, so they could theoretically run into Lord Stanley somewhere. You know that can happen. Good idea. Jeff: Do you foresee more in this universe, potentially if the if the trilogy works out and is successful? Michael: Yeah. I mean, you know, I think it's set up perfectly for a TV show. That's huge right. But I've even thought about - I have a friend who's a game designer and I even thought about... man, that would be amazing. That whole steampunk idea is a huge world and you'll see in book two, the world's even bigger than you see in book one because it's a world at war. It's a world half conquered by clockwork powered England and half conquered by magic powered Ireland. So everywhere you go France, and Germany, and Africa, and potentially the United States. Are they even the United States? It's a huge world, so the stories could go anywhere. You know I think of like, Gideon Smith books. 'Gideon Smith and the Mechanical Girl' I think the first is called. They, at some point, they end up in an airship going to the United States, and the Wild West, and Egypt, and all kinds of things. Steampunk is open. Jeff: I hope that just keeps going and expanding. So what's coming up next for you? Are you done with book two or are still writing on the trilogy ,and can you look beyond this first trilogy? What's next? Michael: Well, interestingly enough, it goes back to your last question. Books two and three, the trilogy, has a beginning, middle, and end in my head. Of course there could be more after that, much like 'The Long Season', but in my mind I've already started about halfway through writing a third completely different genre book, challenging myself with something completely different, which is a contemporary YA book built on my travels to Antarctica. So it's a YA, two young people who meet and fall in love on a cruise to Antarctica. Sort of a travelog and what happens, and the interesting things, and people, and penguins that they see. I won't give away too much, meaning - that's what I'm in the middle of now. Jeff: That's exciting. A little something new there. Again, totally disparate, but you mentioned what you want to keep mixing it up. Michael: So yeah. And we'll see how that works out. I'm working with a gender nonconforming character, which is really new for me, it's taken lots of research to get intersectionality in the forefront of the book, you know not as a ploy, but as a reality of the world that we live in, and people that need representation. So I'm really excited about that. Jeff: Hurry up and write that please. Michael: All right. Hopefully, if you're willing, you'll probably see it before anybody else as a proofreader. Jeff: What's the best way for folks to keep up with you online, to keep up is as 'Infernal Instruments' continues and this new contemporary book starts to take shape? Michael: If they go to my full name - MichaelVanceGurley.com. Go on there and there'll be links to my two book sites and to my Instagram, they can go to Captain Rhetoric on Instagram and find me, that's where I write self-involved book reviews where hopefully people care about what I think about these amazing books that I read, and travel pictures, and just little bits like that, not too much of me, just sort of what I see about the world. I like to do that on Instagram and that's the best way to keep up with me. Jeff: Well I wish you the best of success with 'Absolute Heart'. It's been great to talk to you a little bit about it. And when that contemporary is done you'll have to come on back. Book Reviews Here's the text of this week's book reviews: The Masterpiece by Bonnie Dee. Reviewed by Will.The Masterpiece by Bonnie Dee is a makeover story with Pygmalionthemes in a historical setting. Essentially, an irresistible gay version of My Fair Lady. The story centers on a guy named Arthur. He is the well-to-do gentleman in this particular scenario and, one day, he's out enjoying the good life with his bestie, a guy named Granville. Occasionally Arthur calls Granville, “Granny” and it totally cracked me up. Granville believes very heavily in the British class system. Arthur is a little more modern in views. He feels that if a man has the wherewithal and can pull himself up by his bootstraps, he can achieve anything with his life, no matter where he was born on the ladder of social hierarchy. In order to prove their different theories, they set a wager, and that bet involves Joe the shoeshine boy. Arthur must make Joe a gentleman in six weeks. It is there that he will make his debut at the biggest party of the social season. Joe moves in with Arthur who is very glad that to realize that Joe is not only very smart and very kind, he is hardworking and interested in bettering himself. Joe is undertaking this particular makeover because he has dreams of owning his own men's shop one day - with a focus on finely crafted shoes. They get down to work and, after spending several days studying and learning which fork to use, they decide to get some fresh air. So they go for a constitutional in the park where they unfortunately run into Granville, who's like escorting some demure young ladies. Joe does very in his first unexpected like test. Arthur and Joe now realize that they have definite feelings for one another. Their next test comes during an evening at the theater where they unfortunately run into Granville yet again (this dude's everywhere). Granville has befriended a professor of linguistics, and Arthur knows that Granville is only befriending this schlub because he plans on bringing the linguist to the party to expose Joe as some sort of lower-class fraud. Joe handles the situation admirably. He's proving himself time and time again, but Granny is not going to give up. He makes sure that Arthur's family is invited to the big soiree, and his family comes to stay, making it nearly impossible to have any alone time with Joe. Finally, the big evening arrives and everything goes swimmingly. Joe is tested but everyone is really charmed and quite taken by him. When it comes to Pygmalionstories there is usually a point in the narrative where the Eliza Doolittle character has to wonder if the professor is in love with her, or the person that she's pretending to be. We kind of skip over that in this particular story because it's really obvious that Arthur and Joe are like completely into one another. What ends up happening is that Joe feels guilty, his conscious getting the better of him. All these lords and ladies and debutantes are remarkably kind to him, and he feels genuinely bad that he's pulling the wool over their eyes. That guilt eventually leads him to leave Arthur's house sooner, rather than later. Arthur and Joe try to figure out how can they make their relationship work, but they can’t. Even though they've essentially won the bet and they've proven their point, the fact is that the class system is still very much a thing and the two of them are from two different worlds. Joe packs his bags and leaves and Arthur ends up going to India. He has been convinced by his brother and his father that he has to finally grow up and take part in the family business. While he's away, Joe uses the money that he earns from the bet and opens his own shop. When Arthur finally arrives back in England, there's a big declaration of love scene because they realize they are both utterly and completely miserable without one another. And they both vow to find some way that they're going to make it work. I really, really loved this book an awful lot. I loved these two characters that Bonnie Dee created I was rooting for them the entire time. The Nobleman and the Spy by Bonnie Dee & Summer Devon. Reviewed by Jeff & Will.Jeff: Bonnie and Summer are both new to me authors. The Nobleman and the Spy, which I would call a second-chance romantic suspense historical, was a complete delight full of intrigue and some steaming hot sex. Solider-turned-British spy Jonathan Reese is assigned to keep watch over German Karl von Binder. Jonathan knows Karl all too well because during the war Karl spared Jonathan’s life. It doesn’t take much for Jonathan to lose focus on his mission and pay attention to the man who has come back into his life. He’s also aware that he cares too much for Karl to allow anything to happen to him, despite the fact that his orders as the mission begins are a bit mixed if he should allow the man to be killed or not. Karl, despite the forbidden attraction to Jonathan, tries to keep the spy at length, sure that he can protect himself. As evidence piles up though that there’s someone on Karl’s trail, the two end up working together trying to figure out who’s behind it. It’s a tangled web that I didn’t quite believe even as it was all falling into place. The resolution was certainly something I’d never anticipated as I tried to solve it as I read along. It was quite a thrill. I loved the feel of this book. In often reminded me of a childhood favorite TV show, Wild Wild West, which was set in the same time period of the mid 1860s. While this isn’t set in the American west with some strange characters as villains, the time period comes through loud and clear in a rich setting and how the characters carry themselves. I also liked how Karl and Jonathan recognized that they couldn't give in to their attraction but the more they couldn't give into it the more they really want to. And then when they got together it was so intense. Narrator Todd Scott I have to say does a terrific job with the entire story but the sex scenes…off the charts! Will: What really struck me and what I enjoyed the most is that it's essentially a bodyguard trope and it has all the different things that go along with that but in a historical setting. So it was sexy and it was fun and there's lots of adventure and action. I really enjoyed this one as well. Jeff: Calling out the bodyguard trope is really appropriate. But what makes it a little different, at least to me, is that Karl doesn't really want to be guarded. But Jonathan certainly takes that role because he keeps reinserting himself even where he's taken off the case. He wants to keep Karl safe at all costs. So, yes, we both highly recommend The Nobleman and the Spy by Bonnie Dee and Summer Devon.

Jeff talks about going to the reading and Q&A for Frederick Smith and Chaz Lamar's In Case You Forgot. The guys also talk about their recent trip to see the musical The Drowsy Chaperone starring Bruce Vilanch. It's a Heidi Cullinan double feature this week as Will reviews Nowhere Ranch and Jeff reviews The Doctor's Secret. Jeff talks with Jacqui Greig, the creator and editor of Blush magazine. Jacqui talks about why she created the magazine and what sparked her love of all things romance. We also find out about the books that she writes and how she encourages anyone who is interested to start an online magazine. Complete shownotes for episode 197 along with a transcript of the interview are at BigGayFictionPodcast.com. Interview Transcript – Jacqui Greig This transcript was made possible by our community on Patreon. You can get information on how to join them at patreon.com/biggayfictionpodcast. Jeff: Thanks for coming to the podcast Jacqui it is so great to have you here. Jacqui: My absolute pleasure. Jeff: So Will and I have loved “Blush” since the first issue came out and. Jacqui: Thank you. Jeff: I love what one of the things on the website that talks about you where it says “I may or may not have started this publication and in order to fangirl my favorite authors without getting slapped with a restraining order.” Jacqui: Pretty much. Jeff: Which sounds so awesome. It’s like a mission statement. Jacqui: But it’s so true. I used to finish reading a book and then I just I loved it so much that I wanted to be best friends with the author. I wanted to know everything about them. I just you know wanted to delve into their heads I guess. And that’s kind of what “Blush” lets me do. Yeah without getting hit with a restraining order. Jeff: We feel the same way about the podcast it’s so great to just dive in with these folks. Jacqui: Yeah absolutely. Jeff: Tell us a little bit for our listeners who may not have discovered blush yet. What is the magazine kind of all about besides obviously of course romance books? Jacqui: So essentially, it’s an online magazine for romance readers. So I just wanted something that was specific for people who read romance and there’s already so many amazing blogs and podcasts that I just thought a magazine would be a fun way of getting that information across. And yeah. So it’s kind of interviewing authors, looking at the different books that are coming out at the moment, the different trends in the industry. I’m calling it an online digital platform. There’s even things like I imagine what a particular heroine in a book would wear. And I based a fashion page on that. So it’s just kind of interpreting the romance genre in different ways. Jeff: It really is because you go so much further than a Book Review blog or like what we do on the podcast because you do have, as you mentioned, the fashion thing or I believe in June it was the ‘book crush’ with Jamie Frazier which everybody can have that crush, right? Jacqui: Right? Jeff: There are elements of reviews that work their way in, but then you do some dives on the industry too, or talking about tropes and such. Jacqui: Yeah. I think that’s probably my background in journalism as well. I used to work on magazine in Sydney. I worked in a travel magazine and on a hair magazine of all things. And then I started my own magazine, a women’s lifestyle magazine, which was print – that was more than 10 years ago now. So the industry has evolved so much since then and it’s so much easier to do a digital magazine than it is a print magazine. Yes. So I just thought I’d give it a go. Jeff: How do you decide what goes in to each issue. Because there’s so many things to pick from. Jacqui: I know there’s so many things to pick from and it’s actually been a little – it’s getting easier every month because the magazine is getting more widely known and people are actually messaging me, emailing me, then giving me content ideas, which is fantastic, but it’s just whatever I like. Yeah. I don’t know. Whatever I’ve been reading or what I’ve seen or I am quite big on Instagram I get a lot of inspiration there. Jeff: Yeah. And I enjoy watching your Instagram just because it’s so creative. Jacqui: I’m a graphic designer as well so I see lots of cheeky quotes and things like that and I just redesigned them for my own purposes which is fun. Jeff: Your July issue will have been out a short time by the time this episode airs. What can readers find in July? Jacqui: So I’m super excited. In July I have three authors that I definitely fangirl over. So I’ve got Eve Dangerfield. I’ve got an interview with her. I have an interview with Sarah MacLean and an interview with Abbi Glines. Jeff: Wow. Three of them are all in the same issue. Jacqui: Yeah, well in my very first issue I had Beverly Jenkins and Kylie Scott and I thought, “Right, I’m happy to finish this right now. I’ve reached my peak.” That was epic for me. I think romance authors are so generous with their time and knowledge and it’s just such a beautiful, interesting industry to be in. Jeff: Yeah, it really is because there’s so many warm people who are just happy to tell their story and tell everybody about their books. What are the regular sections that readers look for each month? Jacqui: So I generally start with a ‘Lust-Haves’, which is just kind of products/bookish things that basically I would like to be spending my money on. I think in one issue I had a pair of cashmere socks that were like one hundred and ten dollars and I had a girlfriend calling me, she said, “You didn’t buy those, did you?” I didn’t. I’d like to. So yeah, we did ‘Lust-Haves’, we do an IG profile. I pick an Instagram account that’s really inspiring and has gorgeous images and profile them. We’ve got our author interviews. I generally have a couple of features. So for example, in the current issue we did one on the rise of rural romance. So it’s basically Australian authors writing romance set in rural settings… on farms which is really lovely. I live in a small country town myself, so I can really identify with that. We do a ‘Book Crush’ every issue. So that’s just a hero that we’ve got a bit of a crush on at the time and it’s really fun to contact the author and find out what they had in mind when they were writing that character. I get them to share their Pinterest pages with inspiration that they drew when writing, which I love. And there’s a bookshelf at the back, which features a lot of books, and it’s a really great showcase for indie authors I think. So yeah, that’s kind of it. Jeff: You say that’s kind of it, but that’s a lot. I mean, there’s a lot of stuff that goes into these issues. What kind of overall timing and process goes into creating a single issue? Jacqui: Well, having done in my previous life the print lifestyle magazine that was a whole circus. So I had staff and we had an office and because that I was spending forty thousand dollars an issue just to print it. So it was big. Right. So because [Blush] is digital – it’s online – my overheads are tiny, it’s literally me sitting at my kitchen table and, I have I don’t have it here, but I literally designed up on an A3 bit of paper for weeks and split it into the days and split the jobs across it and I laminated it so that I can write over the top of it – every issue. And it’s actually not too involved I think because I know what I’m doing. And I love what I’m doing. And I think as a working mother you become… I just have to get shit done. Like I just, I’ve got no windows in between kids being at school or ballet lessons or you know all of that kind of jazz. I just have to really, really be productive with my time and bang it out. Jeff: And I think the online magazine in a lot of ways gives you a much broader design to work with than if you were locked in to any kind of website format. Jacqui: Yeah, I think it’s fun because you can flip through the pages. It kind of it feels interactive and you can, you know, I can put gifs onto the pages so there’s movement, there’s different animations that you can use. And it’s just readers really like the tactile experience of a physical magazine. And because I can’t do that, I think a digital magazine – it is still something different from a blog post and not to say that, you know, there’s some fantastic blogs out there, but this is just a different format. Jeff: Yeah, it’s a different medium, but it’s going to be interesting, I think to see if other people move in that direction. I think we’re all so used to seeing blogs that this is another similar but different way to go. Jacqui: Yeah, it’s just a bit fun, little bit different. Jeff: July is also kind of a milestone for you because it’s six months old for the magazine – issue number six. What’s your favorite thing to write about so far in those six months? Jacqui: I think the interview with Beverly Jenkins, that was kind of amazing. She’s an icon in the industry and she’s so generous and I couldn’t believe that she’s giving me the time of the day, especially because I hadn’t published a magazine by that stage. I literally had nothing to show her. She just kind of said, “Yeah sure.” So that was really incredible. I do freelance digital marketing, which I’ve just stopped, and I’m focusing all my energy on ‘Blush’ because I really want to give it a go. I felt like I was building other people’s dreams, helping them build their dreams and I wasn’t really putting any time into my own. So yeah, I’m kind of all in with this. I got skin in the game now. Jeff: That’s awesome. It’s a good feeling. Jacqui: Yeah, it really is. And I do need to say my husband is super supportive and I’m very lucky. But yeah, like this is my gig now. Jeff: What’s surprised you over the six months. Jacqui: I don’t know if it was surprise. It was probably just reinforced how wide and how deep this romance genre is and how amazing it is. I mean, if Alexa Riley can beat Michelle Obama in the rankings on Amazon, that’s huge. Jeff: And you’re right about the romance genre being so big. I have found, so far, that you try to cover seemingly all of it. You’ve featured all kinds of romance including LGBTQ romance. Jacqui: Well, that’s a that’s a big sector and it’s valid and I know that, especially in the states, you’ve been having a lot of diversity talk at the moment – and so you should. ‘Blush’ is a vehicle for the romance industry and I want it to encompass all aspects of that. Jeff: And we talked a little bit before we started recording that it was ‘Blush’ that first put ‘Red, White & Royal Blue’ on our radar as the thing we needed to watch out for in the spring. Jacqui: Well, I’m sure you hadn’t seen it with me, you would have seen it very soon because it has been so well received and validly So like she’s amazing, Casey’s [McQuiston] she’s going places. Jeff: Yeah, absolutely. What got you into romance? Jacqui: So my parents owned a newsagent when I was younger. And romance novels were distributed by magazine companies, which meant that if they didn’t sell, it was cheaper to rip the cover off and throw it out than it was to send it back to the company. So I used to scavenge through the back bin and I just fell into it. I read to my heart’s content. The only problem was, that because it didn’t have a cover, I knew the title, but without that image on the top on the cover and the title, I can’t remember any of them. And probably I was reading so many of them, I was just kind of consuming them. But yes, so that’s how I got into it – scavenging. Jeff: That is awesome. What a great way to get books. Jacqui: I know right. I mean it’s so demoralizing and awful for an author to think about – that’s how some of your books may end up. I don’t know if that’s still the practice – I would hope not. But yeah, that’s back when I was 12 or 13. That’s how we did it. Jeff: On the other hand, I mean how terrific that it must be – Yes, they didn’t get paid for – but they inspired somebody to go out and create something like this later in life. Jacqui: Well that’s true. That’s a really nice way of looking at it. Oh, thank you. Jeff: You can’t remember some of the titles and authors obviously, but do you remember what tropes and what sort of elements of the story fueled your interest in the genre? Jacqui: I read a lot of the historicals, which I loved. But I kind of stopped reading for a while – going through high school and then university – and got back into it with Kylie Scott, who’s an Australian author who wrote a romance in a zombie apocalypse, which is very far removed from historical romance, but freaking awesome. She wrote two books and a novella and then found mainstream success with her Rockstar romances. But she kind of got me back into reading romance, her and Amy Andrews who is another Australian author. She’s got a ‘Sydney Smoke’ rugby series, which is a series of books set around a rugby team in Sydney and she just has the dialogue down pat, like she is so dynamic with her writing. Yeah, she is really, really incredible. I think those two got the ball rolling to get me back into it and now I don’t really have a favorite trope or a favorite genre. I will literally read anything you put in front of me. I will read it. Jeff: That’s awesome. I’m kind of the same way. Will has is his thing where he likes contemporary/low angst – may take a few diversions off that path… But if I like the blurb, I’m at least game to see where it goes. Jacqui: Exactly. Yep. I’m with you. Jeff: Now, since we are an LGBTQ romance podcast, what are some of your recent reads, kind of in that genre. Jacqui: So what I’ve really loved is that some of my favorite authors are diversifying. I guess they’re going into that queer space. So Kate Canterbury, she wrote The Walsh series – which I devoured I loved – and then it’s an offshoot. There’s a lobster fisherman who marries Aaron and Nick in book 6. And So the lobster fisherman he gets his own book and he falls in love with a tech tycoon. And honestly it was one of the hottest romances I’ve ever read. Like it was. She nailed it. And that was her first male/male book. And I just went, “Oh wow, you’ve done such a good job.” Also Tessa Bailey she wrote a male/male. What’s it called… I wrote it down. ‘Heat Stroke’. She wrote ‘Heat Stroke’ which is just really sweet. And the relationship between the two men, it was so believable and she’s really good at characterization. She’s fantastic, but my absolute favorite of mine is Sierra Simone, who wrote the ‘Camelot’ series. So it starts with ‘American Queen’ goes to ‘American Prince’ and I actually haven’t read the third one because I got a spoiler and I don’t have the emotional fortitude at the moment. Jeff: I understand how that it goes. Jacqui: But she just writes… So it’s a male/female/male, but the two guys, they’ve been in love for so long before Greer, the woman, actually comes into it and just the depth of their love for each other. And she’s, I mean, it’s kind of filthy – the writing, but awesome. It’s emotional and it’s just, yes, she’s fantastic. Jeff: Since you look at romance really from around the world for ‘Blush’, because you’re in Australia and have read so many Australian authors, do you see a difference of what romance is around the world – what gets written into the books from the native authors? Jacqui: I think that a lot of Australian authors are actually setting their books in the US. I don’t know if that’s a marketing thing or if that’s just what they read and that’s what they want to write, but then there’s a whole crop of Australian authors who are writing rural romance, which is set on an Australian farm as opposed to an American ranch. So you know there are differences in words I guess. I don’t know. Apart from that though, I kind of think everyone’s just writing their own happily ever after. And it’s and in different ways, using different tropes, different locations. I do wish that there were more Indigenous Australians writing romance novels. I think that would be amazing. There are some amazing Indigenous authors, just not so many writing romance, so that that would be really incredible to see. I actually am writing as well. I’m sure everyone who reads is trying to write as well. So I’ve just published my second book, but I would like to co-author a book with… I grew up in a small country town with a high indigenous Aboriginal population. So I went to school with all of these Aboriginal girls and I need to make contact with them and see if one of them will sit down with me and co-write a book, a romance from their point of view. I think that would be amazing. I don’t think that I would have the guts, I guess, to write from that point of view, even if I had a sensitivity reader come in and read it afterwards. I really do think that their issues and their worldviews and, you know, they have their differences and you’ve got to do justice to that. Jeff: So what do you write? Tell us a little bit about your books. Jacqui: Well my full name is Jacqueline, and my maiden name is Hayley, so they’ve written under Jacqueline Hayley. And second, which literally I published yesterday, it’s ‘Getting Under Her Skin’, and it’s set in Sydney. So they’re contemporary romances that are a little bit sexy, I don’t think I really want my mum reading them. Jeff: Yeah that’s awesome. Any chance of a male/male book in your future? Jacqui: Yeah, I think So but I think that, again, I would want to team up with a gay male author to help me do that. Like, I just I don’t want to presume that I would know their life experiences. So I think that would be super fun. Jeff: I hope you get to do that. We’d have to have you back on the show to talk about that when it comes out. Jacqui: Absolutely. Jeff: What can you tell us about upcoming issues [of ‘Blush’] for the rest of this year? Jacqui: Oh, the rest of this year. So I’m actually heading to the Australian Romance Writers Association, their annual conference is in Melbourne, and I have lined up some authors that I’m going to do video interviews with as bonus content for my readers. So we’re just finalizing the details of that, but I do think that video, which can be embedded into the magazine – in the magazine we also find YouTube clips and things as well, the digital magazine format allows for that, which I think is really fun. The video will start to become a little bit more of a thing with the magazine, as much as I don’t really want to see myself on video, I think that it would be really fun for authors, who are normally behind the pen – behind the computer – and you don’t see their faces or hear them. I think that that would be a really fun thing to do. Jeff: Very much looking forward to that. It’s great seeing how the video gets in there to really make this interactive magazine. What’s the best way for people to keep up with ‘Blush’ online and how do they get the subscription? Tell us all about that. Jacqui: So at the moment, to be able to read the magazine, you have to head to the website which is blushmagazine.com and sign up with your email address. So it’s free. And then the magazine gets emailed to you, well a link to the magazine gets sent to you, so that you can view the magazine. Previous issues are available on the website, so you can you can click through there, but probably I’ most prolific on Instagram. That’s kind of where that’s my jam. That’s what I like doing. So you know, for cheeky quotes and books that are coming up, all the behind the scenes of what I’m doing here, that’s Instagram, is where it’s at. Jeff: Very cool, and can readers of the magazine get in touch and suggest ideas? Jacqui: Absolutely. I love it. The interaction is one of the best things that I love about what I’m doing, so I get DMs on Facebook, Instagram, and my email is hello.BlushMagazine@gmail.com. Jeff: And what would you say to anybody who is like, “Gosh, I really like that. Maybe I should start my own.” Jacqui: Yeah. So I guess have a look at the different platforms that are out there to do a magazine on. I use readymag which I really love. But there’s also issu, which I’m kind of looking at as I get bigger. That might be where I go just because you can get more stats on what particular pages people are staying on longer. That kind of thing. So I guess just have a really clear view of what you want to put in your magazine, you’ve got to structure it like a real magazine. So go and get a physical magazine, you need a contents page and an editor’s letter and kind of build it from there, but just know that readers like continuity, so if you’re going to start a section, you’ve got to kind of continue it. So have a really clear idea of what kind of content you want to do. I haven’t done this and I probably should have build up content so that you’re an issue ahead of yourself so that, you know, just to for timing I guess, that would make life easier. I like making things hard for myself. Give it a go, like why not? Compared to the money that I used to put into print publishing, digital publishing… there’s barely any any cost. So yeah, give it a go. Jeff: Cool. Hopefully somebody will take up the inspiration because – at least the way we feel concerning podcasts, the more podcasts the better, the more magazines the better, the more blogs the better. Jacqui: Built this industry! Jeff: Yes absolutely. Well Jacqui, thank you so much for telling us about ‘Blush’, we’re going to link up to everything we talked about- the authors and the magazine – in the show notes, and we look forward to see what comes out in future issues. Jacqui: Thank you so much for having me. It was just the highlight of my week. Thank you so much. Book Reviews Here’s the text of this week’s book reviews: Nowhere Ranch by Heidi Cullinan. Reviewed by Will. Admittedly, I’m a little late to the party when It comes to this book. When I posted online that I’d finished reading Nowhere Ranch, I got a slew of responses, “Isn’t it the best?”, “That’s my favorite Heidi book.” So, for the few that haven’t yet experienced the sexy wonder of this cowboy romance, Nowhere Ranch is about a young guy named Monroe, Roe for short. He’s the prototypical lone cowboy who’s just landed a job at Nowhere Ranch. On one of his free nights, Roe travels several hours away to the nearest gay bar. To his surprise he runs into his boss, Travis Loving. After some flirty banter and surmising that they are both definitely into each other, they spend one wild night together in Travis’s hotel room. Roe tries to keep things professional with his boss, but Travis is just too damn irresistible. After a trip to the rodeo, he gives into his desire yet again. His hook-ups with Travis are so amazing that he begins to reconsider his ‘no relationships’ policy. When it comes to the bedroom, Roe likes things a little kinky. Travis is more than willing to give him everything he wants. After a rough and raunchy tumble in a horse stall on his birthday, Roe is so turned on and turned around, that he just doesn’t know what to do. Guys, this book is incendiary. I’m no expert when it comes to Heidi Cullinan’s books, but the few that I have read, have ridden that delicious line between sweetly romantic and utterly filthy. The kink explored in Nowhere Ranch isn’t your mommas 50 Shades style slap ‘n tickle. This is hardcore stuff in the best possible way. Back to the story. Hailey, the daughter of the ranch foreman, becomes fast friends with Roe and it becomes her personal mission to tutor Roe so he can get his GED. After learning some English composition basics, Roe writes an essay especially for his boss entitled, “Why Travis Loving Should Fuck Me”. What’s wonderful is that the entire text of the essay is included as part of the story. It’s sweet, it’s funny, and it leads to some more smoking hot sex for our two heroes. Unfortunately, the course of true love never did run smooth. A letter from the family that rejected Roe years earlier, forces him to examine what “home” really means. Home is definitely Nowhere Ranch. Some drama eventually forces Roe to make an unwanted trip to deal with the backwards, judgmental people he once called his family. With Travis and Hailey by his side, he sets things to rights and accepts that he is, in fact, worthy of his very own happily-ever-after. There’s a brief time jump at the end of the story to show us just how happy the happily-ever-after is for Roe and Travis. It’s wonderfully schmoopy and surprisingly sweet for a story that is so dang filthy. It just goes to show, that in the hands of a skilled author, kink doesn’t have to equal dark or angsty. The story of two hot and horny cowboys can be just as swoon-worthy as the lightest of rom-coms. The Doctor’s Secret by Heidi Cullinan. Reviewed by Jeff. This book had me at its cover with its clean design, heartbeat along the top and the handsome doctor. And I snatched the audiobook out from under Will because Iggy Toma was doing the narration. As with my other experiences with Heidi and Iggy, this one was above and beyond. The Doctor’s Secret brings Dr Hong-Wei Wu, or Jack as he tells the staff to call him, to Copper Point, Wisconsin. Hong-Wei’s left a high powered residency and his family in Texas to re-locate to this tiny town that needs a surgeon. He also hopes to lead a quiet life here. That’s derailed almost as soon as he steps off the plane because he meets Simon Lane, the hospital’s surgical nurse and the person who was dispatched to pick him up. Simon wasn’t quite ready for the attraction either. He’s in Copper Point working alongside his two best friends who all wanted to stay and give back to their home town–a place so small Simon’s sure he’ll never find a man for him. Hong-Wei is torn from the beginning because he came to Copper Point to get away from complications, but he can’t deny the immediate attraction to Simon. He tends to put himself under a tremendous amount of pressure to always do the right thing, even if that means saying yes to things he doesn’t want. As Simon learns more about Hong-Wei–from his love of classical music as well as his dislike for most pop music, his love of Taiwanese food and even the meticulous way he wants his operating room set up–only made him fall for the man more. Simon’s incredible from the get go. Instead of using “Jack,” Simon wants to use Hong-Wei’s given name and takes the time to learn how to pronounce it. It’s super adorable too how Simon can’t believe Hong-Wei might be flirting with him–their interactions at the hospital are super cute as they both easily get flustered. Their potential relationship comes with great risk. Copper Point is a small town with small town drama and shenanigans. St. Ann’s Hospital has a stranglehold on its employees with a hospital board that attempts to rule with an iron fist. This includes a no-dating policy. As they grow closer though, Hong-Wei’s having none of it, insisting he’ll protect Simon. Simon’s friends Owen and Nick, also doctors at the hospital, help the two get together in secret. As you can imagine neither men want to live in secret, and the more they fall for each other it becomes more difficult to keep it. Beyond Simon catching Hong-Wei’s attention, he starts to fall for the entire town of Copper Point. From the owners of his favorite restaurant to his co-workers to the local orchestra. It’s far more than he ever planned for and he’s not quite sure how to manage all the feelings of peace and happiness he has here. When a medical emergency forces Hong-Wei to reveal more of himself than he planned, the major power struggle begins around the dating policy and the future of St. Ann’s. Heidi does a tremendous job about making us care not only for Hong-Wei and Simon, but for everything that’s at stake for the town. There’s so much to love in this book between Simon and Hong-Wei, their friends, the citizens of Copper Point. The book also has one of the best grand gestures ever. It gave me all the feels. Kudos to Iggy Toma for a brilliant performance, infusing everyone with strong emotions and rich personalities. The tender moments between Simon and Hong-Wei are perfection. I’m looking forward to Owen and Nick’s books in the series. Owen’s is already out but I’m hanging tight for the audio and Nick’s book releases in August.

The guys talk about the television they’ve been watching so far this summer, including American Ninja Warrior on NBC, FX’s Pose, American Masters: Terrence McNally: Every Act of Life on PBS, Grand Hotel on ABC, Good Trouble on Freeform and What/If on Netflix. Jeff reviews In Case You Forgot by Frederick Smith & Chaz Lamar. Jeff interviews Roan Parrish about Raze, the latest book in the Riven series. They talk about the research she did for the series, including going on tour with a band, as well as the eclectic music she enjoys. The origin of Roan’s collaboration with Avon Gale is also discussed along with what got Roan started with writing gay romance. Complete shownotes for episode 196 along with a transcript of the interview are at BigGayFictionPodcast.com. Interview Transcript - Roan Parrish This transcript was made possible by our community on Patreon. You can get information on how to join them at patreon.com/biggayfictionpodcast. Jeff: Welcome, Roan, to the podcast. It is so great to finally have you here. Roan: Thank you. I'm so happy to be here. Jeff: And it's a perfect opportunity because just last week, you released raise "Raze," just the third book in the "Riven" series. And for those who don't know, tell us about the series and, of course, this latest installment. Roan: Sure. So "Riven" starts out with the book, "Riven," also the series title. And it's kind of an anti-rock star romance. It's about Theo, who's the lead singer of the band, Riven. And they've suddenly hit it big and are super famous. And everyone in the band loves being famous and their success. And Theo hates it. He hates being famous. He hates being the center of attention. He hates, like, people knowing things about him or looking at him when he leaves the house. So he loves the music, but he finds fame, like, the worst thing ever. And so he's about to go off on a new leg of the tour and is sort of, like, wandering the streets of New York, feeling a little bit sorry for himself. When he hears this song coming from a bar, like, someone just strumming guitar, and it's one of the most beautiful things he's ever heard. So he goes in the bar to see who's playing this or what the song is. And he meets Caleb, who is the one playing the music. And Caleb, we learn later, has been a musician for a long time, a working musician, but has sort of gone away from the scene and hidden himself away in his uncle's house out of town because he's had some addiction issues, and he's trying to stay clean by staying away from everything that reminded him of the scene, including music. So they start to talk to each other and they bond over music. And then little by little, they fall in love. The problem being, of course, that for Theo being in the scene and being public is kind of part of his thing. And for Caleb, everything about that just brings back a lot of bad memories. So they have to sort of work together to figure out how that's gonna impact their relationship and if they can get through it. And then it kind of takes a hard left, I feel like this is the thing that I should say for people who haven't read the series, is that the series really does hang together. It has the same secondary characters. It deals with a lot of the same themes, like, the themes of ending up someplace that you never thought you would be. But then in book two, we met Reese, or we've met Reese in book one, but we have a book about Reese who was Caleb's best friend and Reese's husband, Matt. And Matt has nothing to do with the music scene. And the book is told from his perspective. So for people who go in expecting that the whole series is about music, it is in some ways, like, music as a through line. And certainly, this idea of fame and this idea of struggling with fame is a through line. But book one is sort of anti-rock star. And then book two is like working musician and person who's not involved with music at all. So I feel like that's the thing I should say. Jeff: Well, they it does hang together because you've got the working musician. Roan: Yeah, totally. And Reese, who is the working musician is someone who toured with Caleb when Caleb was still playing music. So the characters all hang together and the series hangs together, but it's not a kind of musician book, if that make sense. Jeff: Yeah, that makes sense. Roan: And then "Raze," which is book three, it also hangs together. "Raze," it's similarly about characters ending up someplace that they never thought they would be. And in this book we meet Huey, who was in the first two books, and has been a sort of a little bit of a shadowy figure who we never knew his backstory, we didn't know who he is, he just pops in and dispenses wisdom, and pops out again, he doesn't say much else. And so he was Caleb's sponsor in Narcotics Anonymous. And he's still been working as a sponsor. And he is so used to taking care of everyone else being a sponsor, helping people work through their own addiction issues, dealing with his own, that he doesn't really ever focus on his own life. He's built up this kind of wall of focusing on everyone else, so he never has to think about himself. And we meet Felix, who is doing the same thing, taking care of everyone else but him himself, but through his family instead of through NA. So he grew up and help take care of his younger brothers and sisters, and always helped his sister get whatever she wanted, and has now found himself as his sister goes off to do her music thing, found himself kind of like, "What the hell am I doing with my life? Who am I? I kind of forgot to ever notice what I wanted." And so the two of them come together. And two people who are so used to looking out for everyone except themselves, as you can imagine, when it comes down to trying to make a relationship, they kind of don't know how to do it. They don't know how to ask for what they want. They don't even know what they want from each other. And so feelings kinda bubble up and nobody knows what to do with them. And then it ends really happily. Jeff: As all romance must. Roan: That's a must. And there's even a kitten. So, yeah. Jeff: What attracted you to writing this series? Roan: I think that there's themes that go together. I love music. And I've always been a huge music fan. And one of the things that I've always thought was interesting is that music is so personal, to me, anyway. And I know for many other people, like, each of us, listens to music and feels something - has associations that are deeply personal. And something about the weirdness of something so personal, experienced on a large scale of fame has always struck me as really odd. So you can be at a concert with the band and have thousands and thousands of people there. And each person has been hit with his music in a really personal way. And yet, we're all there together in a super public space, having kind of a personal experience, like, smooshed up together with each other. And I've just always found that really strange. And I know for people who make music, the process of making music is really personal. And it's really different than the process of performing music. And so I think I was interested in what would it feel like to do something really personal in front of a lot of people and then watch as this thing that you've made gets loose on the world, and you no longer have any control over it or what people think of it. And to me being famous seems like absolutely the worst thing I can imagine outside of, like, actual torture. And I know that for some people, that's not the case. But, yeah. So I was interested in writing, like, the genre of rock star romance is a thing. And I was interested in looking at it from the perspective of what would a rock star romance look like, if instead of rock star being a desirable thing, it was a terrible thing or a thing that caused a lot of problems for the rock star. Jeff: What was the process around some of the research, because, like, you talk about this very personal thing. How do you research that? And then how do you try to read and put it in a book so everybody else gets it? Roan: You know, I mean, I don't know. I can't really claim that I did it correctly. I've never been a musician. I like singing karaoke to Paula Abdul once with five other people very drunk in college. And that's about my performance level. But my sister-in-law, my sister's wife is a musician. And she's very personal and writes very personal music and then performs it. And, you know, I've been to many of her shows, obviously. And I went on tour with her in Europe once, like, carrying her stuff and hanging on for the ride. And one thing that struck me was, like, people would come up to her after the show and tell her like, "Your music has meant so much to me. I was going through such a hard time and your music spoke to me in these really hard moments." And so I would see that and I know that people are having these personal responses and have personal relationships with the music. And I know that my sister-in-law does as well. And then, like, the moment that the two of them would be having together would be personal. But there was still this whole performance element that I kinda…yeah, just seems like a very strange crucible of the personal and the public smooshed together, and maybe the performativity of that, in some way, like, hides the personalness…or not hides necessarily, but, like, you need a little bit of distance, like, the lights and the smoke machine, and the darkness, and the space between the stage and the crowd to insulate you a little bit in order to take something that's so personal and project it out in public. Jeff: I love how you kinda had the personal research going on there that you actually went on this tour and got to see all of it kinda go down about as close to it as you could without being the actual performer. Roan: Yeah, yeah, which is awesome. And I mean, like, I've had many friends who do music. So I knew that if I had, like, specific questions, you know, I had some questions about, like, the studio stuff and how you laid out tracks that I was able to ask friends about. But I really do think it's, like, the feeling of performing that I was trying to capture and the sense of what it felt like to have something that was yours, like, the music, and then watch other people make it theirs. And although I've never been a performer in any way, I mean, that's a little bit, like, what happens with books is that I sit at home in my pajamas, like, with cat hair all over me, and I write these books. And then when they're published, it's not mine anymore, it belongs to the people who read it. And I don't really have any control over it. So that part was easy to kind of understand. Jeff: Of course, you mentioned your love of music. And your bio actually mentioned that you listen to torch songs and melodic death metal. Now, I get eccentricity because my playlists are, like, wildly, you know, strangely hooked together in some way. But these two seem very different. What attracts you to these two individual styles? Roan: I think I was trying to write my bio in a way that was, you know, like on dating sites, you wanna say the two things that seem most opposed. So you can be like, "Listen, this is what you're getting as a human being who is essentially at odds with himself," maybe that's just me. Anyway, yeah, I love both of those genres. I think they're both simultaneously really raw and really beautiful. Like, torch songs, I love because they are heartbroken, and tender, and they tell a story, and they're so vulnerable, and beautiful. And melodic death metal is like, doing the same thing, only it can't be vulnerable, or, like, it needs a really harsh bass riff, and loud guitar, and loud drums in order to do something that's that tender and that personal. And I find not like screamy death metal, but yeah, melodic death metal. I find it like one of those puppies that growls at you until you get a little bit closer, and then little by little it sorta lets you pet it. And then by the time you're petting it, it's like, "Oh, no, I really do love this. Please don't ever stop petting me," but then, like, someone else walks in the room and they're all growly again. Jeff: I love that analogy. So awesome. Jeff: Now, speaking of music, with the "Riven" series seems such an obvious thing to perhaps you write to music if you're a writer who does that. Was there a particular playlist that sort of pushed you along in the writing of the series? Roan: You know, I actually didn't listen to music at all writing the series, which is sort of strange when you say it like that. I go through phases of whether I like to write with music on or not. And there have been books that I've written where I listened to the same music over and over. Like, when I wrote...what book was it? Oh, "Out of Nowhere," which is the second book "In the Middle of Somewhere" series, I listened like obsessively to "The Civil Wars" just over, and over, and over. And for some reason, the mood of those albums was, like, exactly the mood that I needed to be in to write that book. But with the "Riven" series, I didn't listen to music at all. Jeff: Interesting. Okay. Roan: Yeah. And none of the music in the books is real. Like, I made up all the band names and all of the music. And I wonder if maybe part of it was like, I didn't want real music in my head because I was making it up. Jeff: That would make sense. Yeah. If you're having to write any kind of song lyrics or anything inside the book, I could see where you would wanna, like, accidentally just pick up something. Roan: Right. Well, it was super adorable actually because one of my best friends who reads all my stuff first is, like, she likes music a lot, but she's like a top 40 radio kind of tastes music person. And so she thought that all of the musical references in my books in the "Riven" series were real, because she knows that I like lots of different kinds of music, and she just didn't know that they were fake at all, which is totally adorable. Jeff: Oh, that's awesome. So you could have an extra career then as a songwriter if you're writing lyrics. Roan: Maybe a band-namer. I like the band names more. Jeff: So I have to ask for the audio book then that you've got song lyrics - does that mean your narrator is actually singing the lyrics? Did you make Iggy sing and Chris sing? Roan: No. And, you know, I don't think that I have a chunk of lyrics long enough to be sung. They're like a couple snippets. But I didn't even think about the fact that I could have written a song of it for the audio book. That would have been awesome. Too late. Jeff: Something to think about maybe for a future book or another installment in the series. Roan: Yeah, yeah. I could do it as like an extra or something, I guess. Jeff: And speaking of the series, is there more to come in this series? Roan: There's not. Like, The Good Place that we were talking about earlier, I have decided that book three is the end. Jeff: Okay. Time to wrap up that universe. Roan: Yeah. And, you know, I say that and obviously maybe I would go back in the future and write another one. But I think the fact that the last book is about a character whose story we've kinda been wondering about for the whole series, it felt like a good place to stop because it's sort of the wrap up of, like, solving the last interpersonal mystery. So that felt like the right place to stop. And there are definitely tendrils. Like, people who've read a bunch of my books will notice that Riven, the band, is mentioned in another book, and that some characters from the "Middle of Somewhere" series are briefly alluded to in "Riven." So there's, like, little Easter eggs for people who have read all the books because I sort of think of everything as being connected in that way. So it'll pop back up, I'm sure. Jeff: I love that. I love the broad interconnected universe thing. Roan: Yeah, yeah. Secretly in my head, all of the books are connected in lots of ways that I don't necessarily put on the page. But, like, I like to get a couple in there. Jeff: Nice. Now, you also co-write with Avon Gale. What got that collaboration going? Roan: You know, that collaboration happened completely by accident, or on a whim, I should say. And I'm so glad it did. So I was living in New Orleans a couple years ago. And Avon and I were friends on the internet. And she offered when I was moving back from New Orleans to Philadelphia, she was like, "I love a road trip. What if I fly to New Orleans and drive with you," because it's a many day drive and you have a cat. I had like my truck and then I had my car hitched to the back of the truck, and it was a whole big thing. So I was like, "Oh, great. This will be fun." So we started driving from Louisiana to Pennsylvania. And it was, like, a torrential downpour. And we couldn't hear the radio. We couldn't do anything. And so Avon was like, "Okay. Well, I'll just tell you about this book that I've been working on. And I am really stuck on it. I can't get the plot right." So I was like, "Okay." And I'm pretty introverted and Avon is very extroverted. And we going in... Jeff: And it's very true, she is. Roan: Yes. And, you know, I really just love a clear communicator, so I loved it. She was like, "Basically, I talk constantly. And if you want me to stop, you have to tell me to stop." And I was like, "Oh, that's amazing. I run out of steam socially in approximately two-and-a-half hours, and I'm still listening to you, but I won't respond." And she was like, "Okay, great." And thus, it was. And so she basically narrated to me the entire plot of this book that she was trying to write, and she was having trouble with it. And I kept doing this probably obnoxious thing where I was like, "Oh, what if you did this?" Or, "What if you did that?" Or, "Oh, my gosh, it's so funny, because if that were me, I would totally do this." And she, instead of being annoyed, was like, "Well, you should obviously write this book with me." And that book was what it turned into "Heart of the Steal," which is the first book we wrote together. And it was so fun because then as we were driving, we just plotted the whole book. And she had her little, like, computer that she was typing on while we drove. And I drove the truck the whole way. And so I would like yammer at her and she would take notes, and then in the hotel rooms at night, we would kinda hash it out. And so it happened on a total whim, and then turned out to be really fun. And so we planned it on that trip. And then I went and visited her months later, I guess. Yeah, some months later, and we actually wrote "Thrall," which was the second book that we co-wrote together, like, in the same place. So we wrote it, like, together, even though we don't live in the same place. So it was two very different writing experiences, but both equally awesome. Jeff: That's fantastic. And I have to imagine it's a nice way to kill the time in a road trip to just write a book. Roan: Oh, yeah, totally. And it's really fun because I don't know about you or about other writers in general, but, like, I find that traveling is one of the best, like, brain, what do you call it? Like, catalyzers, brain catalyzers, something about moving through space constantly, whether it's, like, on a train or just walking or whatever. It's, like, the rhythm of moving through space makes my brain also work in a forward rhythm. And I find myself, excuse me, getting so many ideas when I'm just, like, walking a long distance, or on a train, or on a bus, or something. And so something about driving and plotting the thing together was, like, super, some word… Jeff: Awesome. Roan: Yeah, awesome. Jeff: Probably better than awesome, but awesome was the first thing that popped into my head. Roan: Yeah, yeah. Jeff: And then I totally get what you're talking about there, too, because I've done a lot of plotting and some writing on planes. Because it's like, yeah, there's something about just that that just you've got the time, and, like, the brain is working, so use it. Roan: Yeah. And it's, like, looking out the window of something moving through that kinda space with everything passing so quickly, it almost feels like it changes the rhythm of thoughts or something. Jeff: Yeah. And kudos to Avon for being able to type in a moving vehicle because I don't know that I could do that. Roan: Oh, my God, she has, like, motion sickness proof. I swear to God. Jeff: That's just crazy. Roan: Oh, I know. Jeff: But we definitely got to talk a little bit about "Thrall." I reviewed it back in Episode 157. I was just blown away by it. For folks who don't know, tell us about what that book is and what in fact does make it so special? Roan: So "Thrall" is our modern "Dracula" retelling, basically. And for anyone who's read "Dracula," you'll remember that "Dracula," it's an epistolary novel, so it's told through letters, and diary entries, and, like, newspaper clippings, telegram, stuff like that. And so we did "Thrall" in the same way, we made it an epistolary novel. But since ours was modern, and that one was 19th century, instead of letters and journal entries, and stuff like that, we have emails, and g-chats, and tweets, and podcast descriptions, and stuff like that. So the whole thing is written in that way, this combination of different print media. So we have the main characters that people will recognize from "Dracula." And Mina, and Lucy, who are the two characters that people will know from "Dracula," in our version, have a podcast, a true crime podcast in New Orleans. And they get caught up in basically trying to solve the mystery of Lucy's brother who seems to have disappeared. And so in getting caught up in that mystery, they stumble upon this a role-playing game kind of thing, where they use an app, and they go to different places, and they try to solve clues, hoping that it will take them to Lucy's brother. And so in addition to it being an epistolary form in general for the whole book, then kind of within that epistolary form, there's this mystery that they're trying to solve on a computer, I mean, on a phone app. So it's like a game inside an epistolary novel that's an adaptation of another epistolary novel. Jeff: And epistolary just not something you see very much. At least I don't, especially in the romance genre that I tend to read in general. What was it like as a writer, and just plotting to take on such a different narrative format? Roan: Yeah, it was awesome. It was really, really cool. I love form, like, I'm super interested in what different things you can do with form. And one of the things that, like, when I'm reading other things I'm always interested in is what form did this author choose, whether it's something simple, like, short chapters, or long chapters, or, like, flashbacks versus telling everything in order, all of that stuff, I think, has such an impact on the way the story gets delivered. And so I was really excited to play with the form. And I think that with the genre of romance, one of the reasons why we don't see epistolary stuff so often is that it's, like, an additional level of remove between the two characters. And romance seems, to me, to be all about intimacy and connection. And sure, it can be really romantic or sexy to write a love letter or love email, I guess, in 2019. But there's still something where you're not in the moment. There's no, like, tracking a touch as it happens, or a kiss, or whatever it is. And so I think that going into "Thrall," we were like, "How the hell do we make a romance happen when the characters essentially are never in the same scene?" Like, in order to be texting each other, they probably aren't together. In order to be chatting each other, they're probably not together. And so any evidence of an encounter, which is all we could show, also demonstrated their distance. So that was a challenge. And we got around it in a couple of different ways, including characters literally writing out sex scenes that they wished would happen like fantasies, having chats that were more intimate. But yeah, the romance part, I think, was actually the hardest to portray via the epistolary form because it introduces that necessary distance, which is sort of the anti-romance. It was much easier, for example, for the mystery, or the suspense parts because those things can be portrayed that way no problem. But, yeah, the romance part was tricky. Jeff: Well, as I said the review, I think you guys pulled it off so amazingly. If people have not read "Thrall," they should really pick it up and give it a try. Roan: Oh, thanks. Jeff: Because maybe a little much to call it a breath of fresh air, but it's certainly gonna be something very different than what I think most people tend to read. Roan: Yeah, it definitely is different. And it's one of those books that Avon and I knew going in, but it's not everyone's cup of tea. It's an adaptation. It's an adaptation of "Dracula." It's an adaptation of "Dracula" without vampires. It's a romance where you don't ever see the characters touch necessarily. But like, I feel, like, for people who are interested in form for people who are interested in Dracula or interested in suspense, and all that stuff, we were really excited to just do something totally new for us. Jeff: Yeah. It was super cool. Please do more of that sometime. Roan: I would love too. Jeff: So laying a little bit of your origin story, how did you get involved in writing M/M romance? Roan: You know, at the risk of making, it sound completely accidental, it was kind of accidental. My good friend from graduate school, got a job in Phoenix, and didn't know very many people. She didn't have many friends. And she and I both started reading both young adult and M/M mysteries in grad school. And so I went to go visit her and she was having a hard time. Like, I said she didn't know very many people, didn't have any friends, and she just wanted like, escape reading. And we were, like, in the kitchen cooking dinner or something, and she was saying that she just wished that there was, like, a romance novel that she could read about someone who was in her situation. So someone who was a new professor in a new place, didn't know very many people and was kind of struggling to fit in. And because she's my friend and I wanted to make it all better, I was like, "Oh, no worries, I'll write you a story. Everything is gonna be okay." So on the plane home from Arizona, I wrote the first chapter of what would eventually be "In the Middle of Somewhere," my first book, thinking that, like, I would send it to my friend, and she would read it and be like, "You are such a nerd. I can't believe you actually wrote me this story. I was just complaining. You're weird." But instead, she read it and wrote back and was like, "Oh, a story. Oh, my gosh. What happens next?" And, of course, I didn't know what happened next because there was no next. I thought that it was going to be a little one-off thing. But then I wrote the next chapter and I emailed it to her, and she wrote back and was like, "What happens next?" And I actually wrote the whole first half of the book that way just chunking out a chapter, emailing it to my friend, and I was really writing it for her. I never thought I would show it to anyone. I never intended to send it to a publisher. I didn't even have a plot, I just was writing these little sections. And around halfway through the book, I suddenly realized that, like, it was getting kinda long, and I should probably figure out how it was gonna end. Otherwise, I would just end up writing this, like, email missive to my friend forever, which was really fun. But also, I thought she would get sick of it eventually. And then when I finished the book, I thought that was gonna be the end of it. And it was my friend who was like, "No, you should totally try to publish it." And I owe it all to her, I never occurred to me to send it to anyone. And I would never have done it if she hadn't made me. Jeff: Well, kudos to her for making that happen. And that's the best accident story ever. I mean, just amazing. Were you writing before that at all? Or was this just really like, "Hey, I could write. I'll write you something. No worries." Roan: Well, you know, I've always written different things. I was a poetry major in college of all the super useful things to pursue. And so I wrote poetry or some short fiction. And then I did my PhD in literature. So, you know, I wrote a dissertation, I wrote nonfiction for years, and years, and years. But I've always loved to write. And I love reading novels. And so sitting down to write a novel, I think it actually helps that I wasn't thinking of it as writing a novel. I just thought of it as writing the story for my friend. So I didn't have any of the self-consciousness or like that internal editorial voice that I'm sure if I had planned to send it out, would have like, killed me as I was trying to start. And in terms of, like, as we get back to your original question, which I don't know that I actually answered in terms of, like, why M/M romance specifically. I hate misogyny, and sexism, and can't deal with stories where I read female characters and feel intensely alienated from them. And I find often in romance, not all by any means, there are some amazing, amazing, like, revolutionary really amazing people writing romance with women, but I've often found that reading romance novels that are, like, heterosexual romance stories make me feel alienated, and angry, and the opposite of anything that I associate with romantic. And so, yeah. Jeff: Who are sort of your author influences? Roan: Oh, man. Well, you know, growing up, I read everything. I'm a real, like, moody reader. So I go through phases. And when I'm in that phase, that's all I read. So, like, when I was in elementary school, I was obsessed with S. E. Hinton Hinton, "The Outsiders" and "Rumble Fish," those books. And she writes with this very kind of, like, spare style, but lots of sensory detail. And I think that that's definitely something that I've always really admired was the ability to evoke feeling even while being very spare. And then when I was in middle school, I was obsessed with Anne Rice, obviously, because middle school. And I read her books over, and over, and over. And I think that she is like the master of the kind of Baroque sentence structure that when you're deep in, reading one of her books, you don't notice that she's, like, in a strange Yoda way, like, flipping a subject and predicate to make things sound, more flourishy and purple prosy. You don't notice it because you're so deep in it that, like, of course, that character would talk that way. But if you go and you read another author or another book, you realize suddenly what she was doing. And so I think from her, I got just, like, I really respected this immersive detail-rich all the senses engaged kind of writing. Also, I really love long books, and the ability to sustain a story over 800 pages, and keep going with this level of detail. I mean, I know it's not everyone's bag, like, some people really like a short one and done, but I mean, I will read a series that goes on forever if I'm still engaged. And I just think that she does that incredibly well. Then, oh, gosh, I'm taking you on a tour. I don't know if this is actually answering your question, but I do think... Jeff: It is actually. Yeah. Roan: Oh, okay, good. The real answer is, like, I learned things from every single author I read. And sometimes, it's things that I don't ever wanna do. And sometimes, it's things that my mind is blown because I'm like, "Holy crap, I didn't even know you could do that." Sometimes it's like I feel like I'm weak in one area at a moment. And so I wanna go read someone who I think does something really well and try to learn it. Oh, Francesca Lia Block was a huge influence when I was a teenager. She writes this kind of magical realism that is, like, very urban set - in LA, deals with real world problems, but has this, like, pink fog over the entire thing. And I was really, really taken by that. That way of combining urbanity with fantasy, and so that's definitely something that I took from her. I went through a really deep, like, epic historical fiction kick, which maybe is that same kind of, like, very immersive detail, huge cast of characters, all that stuff. And, oh, gosh, I'm totally blanking on her. Oh, Sharon Kay Penman is her name. Okay. Sorry, this is maybe a tangent. But this story blows my mind and is, like, one of the more impressive things I've ever heard in my life, if you'll indulge me for a moment. Jeff: Of course. Roan: So Sharon Kay Penman writes these, like, hugely epic, 1,000-page long, British Isles historical fiction. And she wrote this book called "The Sunne in Splendour," in, like, I wanna say the early 80s, maybe mid-80s. And the book is epically long, and just detail, and hundreds and hundreds of characters, and like tons of things translated into Welsh. It's about Welsh civil wars, or wars with England. Anyway, she wrote the book and, like, on a typewriter, and had it in one of those, you know, the boxes that reams of paper come in…you would put your manuscript in this box. So she was going to drive her book to her publisher. And she stopped at the bank to, like, deposit a check or something. And when she came back out, her car had been stolen with the copy of the book inside, the only copy of the book, which I don't even know how that happens. So the car stolen, she's just sure she's never gonna get it back. And whereas, like, I don't know, I would probably immediately go home and, like, order seven pizzas, and you wouldn't see me for a month. She drove home and started writing the book again. Jeff: Wow. I would have done the seven-pizza thing and then walked away for, like, at least a week. Roan: Yeah. Like, I would have told every single person who would listen that my life's work had been ripped from me. And it was the worst thing that ever happened to me and which, you know, I think that's actually speaking pretty well of my life that that would be the worst thing. But, yeah, I just, like, that level of tenacity and dedication to a project, it just blows my mind. Anyway, she's amazing. Jeff: Yeah, that's awesome. And just, like, I can't even imagine, it speaks so well to these days where we're like, "Did you back that up on Dropbox?" Roan: Yeah, at least someone's like, "Oh, man, I just spent, like, 20 minutes writing that email and it got wiped." And I'm like, "Sharon Kay Penman." Jeff: So what's coming up next for you? What's yet to come this year? Roan: Well, do wanna be the first person to know because I actually just found out yesterday? Jeff: Oh, breaking news. Roan: Breaking News. Yeah, I just sold a new book, which I'm pretty excited about. Okay. The concept is, there is a guy who has a bunch of animals. He's like, kind of antisocial, kind of pissed off at the world for reasons that I will not divulge yet. And he likes animals better than people. So he has all these rescue dogs and a bunch of cats that hang around. And basically, all he wants to do is take his dogs on these long rambling walks and think about how fucked up his life has gotten. It's the only thing keeping him sane, it's just, like, rambling walks with these dogs. And one night he is walking with the dogs and one of them starts chasing something. And he starts chasing the dog and falls down a hill and breaks his ankle. So all of a sudden, he can't do the one thing that he's liked, which is walk his dogs. So he goes online, and he finds this app that, like, match makes pet owners with people who wanna hang out with animals, but can't have pets of their own, because he's looking for someone who could help him walk his dogs, since he can't do it anymore. Then you have this other character, who's super shy lives with his grandma is, like, husband saving up to try to, like, get a new apartment so that he could have a dog. And then his grandfather dies, he has to move in with his grandmother, and he can't have an animal because she's desperately allergic. So he goes on the matchmaker app, and gets matched with this dude who needs someone to walk his dogs. And so the Meet Cute is a dog walking app, and a grouchy meets a shy guy, and lots of animals, and love. Jeff: Well, this sounds awesome. When do we get to see this? I'm guessing 2020 sometime? Roan: I think so. I don't have a date on it. I'll start working on it soon. But, yeah, I think it's gonna be, like, cute-ish in tone. And I don't know, I keep, like, accidentally writing animals into every single one of my books. And I don't even mean too. And this time. I was like, "Well, I mean, I keep doing it by accident. Maybe this time, I'll just, like, actually do it on purpose." Jeff: And what's the best way people can keep up with you online and find out when this next thing comes out? Roan: Well, they can check out my website, roanparrish.com, where I post all things that exist. And then in terms of social media, I've been very active on Instagram stories lately. I just bought a house, my first house, like the first non-one-bedroom apartment that I've been living in. And I've been doing all these, like, garden planting, and baking, and projects, and stuff. So I've been really liking Instagram stories. So people should follow me there and tell me all the things that I'm doing wrong in my garden. Jeff: They may not think you're doing wrong. Roan: I mean, it's my first time and I feel, like, I'm doing everything wrong. But we'll see, it might grow. Jeff: I bet it does. And congratulations on the first house. That's such a huge thing. Roan: Oh, thank you. I really went, like, in the space of one month from a person who thought that they would always live in one-bedroom apartments to a person who bought a house. And so it was very shocking for me. I keep wandering to the extra room and being, like, "What's gonna go in here? I don't know." Jeff: It's part of the fun of home-ownership. Roan: Yeah. Mostly, it's like my cat goes in there. And that's what happened. So I mean, I'm on all the social media things. I'm everywhere as Roan Parrish and people can find me. But Instagram stories is totally the most fun. And for people who, like, wanna know about when books are coming out, but don't dig the social media vibe, BookBub is a great place to find me because they'll just get emails when I have books coming out or on sale. Jeff: Fantastic. Well, we will link up to everything we talked about in the show notes. We wish you the best of luck with the release of "Raze." And thanks so much for hanging out with us. Roan: Oh, thanks so much. It was a blast. Book Reviews Here's the text of this week's book reviews: In Case You Forgot by Frederick Smith and Chaz Lamar. Reviewed by Jeff Frederick Smith and Chaz Lamar are new to me authors and I loved reading their first collaboration, In Case You Forgot. Frederic and Chaz are two black gay men writing about two black gay men living in West Hollywood. This year in the life story left me wanting sequels because I want to read even more about these two interesting characters. Zaire James and Kenny Kane are in similar positions. Coming up on his 30th birthday, Zaire decided it was time to separate from his husband, even though a lot of his family and his friends thought Mario was perfect for him. Kenny, approaching 40, was dumped by Brandon-Malik via text as he was en route to his mother’s funeral. Both of these guys need a reboot. For Zaire that means moving into WeHo--it happens that he moves in across the street from Kenny. He’s got a new job at a social media firm and he’s looking for what comes next. He’s got a family that wants him to find it too--the James Gang siblings--brother Harlem and sisters Langston and Savannah--are always on him to get his life together and find his happy. Kenny, on the other hand, is working on getting his consulting business off the ground since he’s recently finished his doctorate. He’s trying to mostly focus on the business, but he also wants to find Mr. Right. Kenny also carries the weight of having watched his first boyfriend, Jeremy, die after a stabbing. He’s working on his life with some therapy. So what happens in this book? Life. Kenny and Zaire, at times together and at others separate, look for a good date that may lead to more, celebrate birthdays, experience success and failures. The last line of the book’s description captures this perfectly: “...they hope new opportunities, energy, mindsets, and connection will reinvigorate what is missing in their lives--drama and all.” That’s exactly what I liked about In Cast Your Forgot, the slice of life feel. It’s happy, sad, angry, messy and full of great triumph and really bad mistakes. It takes a lot to make this kind of loose plot work, especially since the two lead characters aren’t always together as the year progresses. Frederick and Chaz made it work though. One of the reasons it works is the cast of supporting characters from family, friends, roommates and co-workers. Among my favorite parts of the book was the use of social media to plan their lives and sometimes even to stalk their exes, at times to the chagrin of the friends trying to help them move on. There’s also a Labor Day trip to Palm Springs that was one of my favorite parts of the book because of the realness of how it unfolded and how it tweaked Kenny and Zaire’s relationships. The characters reminded me of Noah’s Arc, a show I loved that ran on Logo in 2005 and then was a movie in 2008. The show focused on queer men of color in various states of life and relationships. Kenny and Zaire would fit right in there. I do want to set some expectations around this book. As you may have figured out, it’s not a romance. It’s categorized that way on the Bold Strokes Books site as well as at retailers. I think that’s wrong. It doesn’t have any of the typical romantic story beats and, most importantly while Kenny and Zaire date for a bit in the middle of the book they don’t get an HEA or HFN as a couple….although the book does end with both characters in good places. If you want a great look at a year-in-the-life of some terrific characters who are trying to get their lives together, I highly recommend In Case You Forgot. And I’d love to see sequels to this book. Frederick, Chaz, please write romances for these guys...

The guys talk about their past week as Jeff worked on revisions and they saw a production of Oklahoma, which they both enjoyed. They also welcomed the new listeners that have found the show during the past month. Jeff reviews Something Like Gravity by Amber Smith and Will reviews Annabeth Albert's Arctic Wild. Will and Jeff talk with Annabeth Albert about the Frozen Hearts series, including getting a sneak peek of Arctic Heat, which comes out in September. Annabeth also talks about the research that goes into the Frozen Hearts books, the latest in the Out of Uniform and Rainbow Cove series plus she discusses her next series about smoke jumpers. Complete shownotes for episode 195 along with a transcript of the interview are at BigGayFictionPodcast.com. Interview Transcript - Annabeth Albert This transcript was made possible by our community on Patreon. You can get information on how to join them at patreon.com/biggayfictionpodcast. Jeff: We are excited to welcome back to the show, Annabeth Albert. She was last here, way back in December 2017 in episode 115, talking about "Wheels Up". You have written so much since then. It's so great to have you back to catch up. Annabeth: Hi, happy to see you. Jeff: Now, the most recent thing you got out is the "Frozen Hearts" series. Tell us a little bit about this series and what its inspiration was. Annabeth: So I started reading in the late '80s, early '90s romance. And I love the Alaska set Debbie Macomber's and Nora Roberts. And so my inspiration for this series would be, what if we went back to that sort of setting but made it LGBTQ and fun and that big, sweeping feeling - the big scenery, big emotions, mountain men? I wanted to capture all that feeling of Alaska. And also all the Alaska shows that I like watching, "Man Versus Nature," all those sort of shows. And so I thought, let's bring that sort of big scenery to life in a series that also has LGBTQ characters. And so it was really fun for me to get to bring that to life. And it's a three book trilogy, and each book stands alone really well because we kind of did it so that there's very little overlap in the storylines for this particular trilogy. With "Out Of Uniform", they were a little more closely linked, you saw more secondary characters popping up, back and forth. And here, they stand alone a little bit more. Will: Aside from the inspiration itself, did you have any experience with Alaska? Have you ever been there? Annabeth: That's what's the funny part. No, I haven't actually been there. I feel guilty admitting that right now. But I have done a ton of research. And I also had Alaska beta readers for each of the books. I had people who actually live in the area in Alaska, who are able to give me feedback. "Oh, this is wrong. The coast is over here. This is..." But I did a ton of reading books set in Alaska and documentaries and message boards. And then like I said, using the beta and the sensitivity readers too from Alaska. Jeff: It's so good to have readers in your readership who can be those beta people when you need them. Annabeth: Yeah. I think that it's really important. In Book Two, I have a hero who's native Alaskan. And so it was really important to me to get a couple of beta readers and sensitivity readers who themselves identified as native Alaskans so I can have that perspective come in. And so that's really important to me. Sometimes it takes a while to find the right beta reader for that particular project. Like with book one, we had some alcoholism and some eating disorders being dealt with in that book. And so what I was able to do is get beta readers for that issue. Like I had an eating disorder beta reader, I had an alcoholism beta reader, I had some sensitivity readers kind of about trauma and stuff like that. So I tried to really bring in a lot of perspectives, so that it's both authentic and it feels true to the character, but also is sensitively done. Will: I agree with you about the sensitivity. I mean, because you're dealing with some pretty, you know, heavy, serious subjects. But they're handled in an intelligent and thoughtful way that doesn't make it like preachy or a downer. So I really enjoyed that in the first book. And I wanted to go back to the second book, "Arctic Wild", which I really, really loved. Can you talk to us a little bit about the ideas and inspiration behind that particular book? Especially the themes kind of like, you know, there's like hurt-comfort going on, there's kind of May-December going on with that particular book. What was the inspiration behind book two? Annabeth: So each of the books, I wanted a different fish out of water, so different characters kind of coming. And so I wanted to do a character who was a little bit older, more settled in his life, and confident in who he is. And so I knew he was going to be older, I knew he was going to be a lawyer, I knew he was going to be fairly well off. And I wanted to do a silver fox sort of character, but I call him my silver bear, because he's also a little bit of a larger guy. I wanted something a little outside the norm for him kind of...and then I was like, "Well, so who is he going to get paired with?" Well, obviously, he's got to get paired with someone who's fun and younger, and kind of his opposite in a lot of ways. But I knew that I wanted the hook that kind of bonds them together to be this plane crash, because I knew all along that book two was going to have a plane crash, because every book kind of has its own thing. And I knew that book two's thing was going to be bush pilot, an emergency situation, we've got a crash landing. How are these guys going to deal with it, and who is the most unsuitable guy I could put with the bush pilot in the wilderness having to deal with this emergency? So I did that. And so that was kind of the thing that kind of spurred the book forward from that point. But as I started plotting, I realized that the bulk of the book was going to come after the plane crash. Because at first I was like, maybe I'll do a really tight timeline, I'll get the whole book into a week. And that just wasn't working for these heroes. They really resisted a tight timeline. So I ended up expanding it and I was like, okay, they're going to have to deal with this aftermath together. And so because they have to deal with it together, they kind of bond in a deeper sort of way, spending the summer together as opposed to just 24 hours in the wilderness. And so to me, that was a real joy to watch them evolve and change. And it's my longest book to date. You can see how thick it is. It's a monster. But part of why it's so big is kind of the scope of it. I was able to bring in the secondary characters, Reuben's daughter, and then Toby's sister and father. I have a lot of secondary characters happening in this one. And it was just really fun for me to take that initial idea--there was going to be a plane crash with these opposites attract guys, and they're going to have to deal with it--to this more sweeping sort of story where it does become, like you said, a hurt-comfort story. How do we cope with the aftermath? And the changes that it brought within each of us. So I think that's kind of what I think the book ends up doing. Jeff: You mentioned the Native Alaskan aspect in book two. And before we hit record, you mentioned that book two is also the most research-heavy of these. What kind of research did you do to get it all to work out right? Because I imagine bush pilot, plane crashes, there's research to do there, too. Annabeth: Yeah, each element, like each sort of...and a lot of times what I do is I work in Scrivener. And in Scrivener I'll have notes for each chapter. And in a short story, like I might have like a line or two of notes per scene. In something like this, I'll have a long list and it'll have the research questions for each chapter that's going to come up. Like, okay, I need to know how a pilot would handle this sort of altitude disturbance in his thing. And what would that actually mean? What do the instruments look like? What sort of plane is he flying and what's the weather like? I have to do a lot of research into that. For that, I look at message boards, I look at small plane businesses, I look at write-ups of past disasters, news reporting. I look at a lot of stuff to kind of get that one detail. Like, I won't just, you know, get one thing. I'll look at a couple of different things to kind of get a couple of perspectives. And the same thing with the Native Alaskan details. Obviously, it's not my own lived experience and I'm really aware of that. So I had the two beta readers who were themselves identifying as Native Alaskan. I did a lot of research with blogs, blogs written by people who identify as Native Alaskans. Autobiographies, I did a couple of phone interviews, I really tried to get a variety of experiences so that I could bring Toby to life in a way that was both sensitive and well-rounded and that reflected a variety of sort of different opinions and different ways that sort of their lives end up unfolding. And so I'm very proud of the amount of research that went into both Toby and the book as a whole because like you said, the bush pilot, the plane crash. I had a floor plan at one point of their rental house, I have a floor plan drawn on my office wall of exactly what this rental house would look like, where it's located, what the driveway...all this stuff. Like, I really go into the minutia. Jeff: I like that attention to detail. Because as you said, it just brings everything more to life as it goes. Now you did mention it was a trilogy, and in September, it wraps up with "Arctic Heat". What's coming in that book and can you give us a little sneak peek? Annabeth: So I am so excited for this one. I love the whole trilogy, each book was its own sort of joy to write. But "Arctic Heat" is the one that I was probably most excited about. It's close proximity. We have a ranger who's handed this volunteer and who's going to be snowed in for the season. And this does happen actually. In Alaska, there are volunteer positions where you can basically go and stay in the State Park over winter. And so you're able to basically experience an Alaskan winter with a ranger. And it's kind of cool. So I was like, "Yeah." When I heard about this, I was like, "Oh, yeah. This has got to be a romance." And so the one hero who comes from California, he's kind of a free spirit and he has no idea what he's in for. Even though he's been around snow a little bit, but he has no idea what he's in for. And then we have the older cranky ranger who also is like, he's lost his longtime partner. She's gone on to be back in the city and he's really kind of cranky about this. And he's been handed this guy, and so they're going to spend the winter snowed in together. And along the way, they're going to catch some feelings, and it's going to be really fun. And so they meet each other at training. And they're really not sure about each other. We have Quill, who's the ranger and Owen, who's the younger guy from California. And Owen has a feeling about Quill kind of from the beginning. And he's got his number. And so they end up going out to dinner. And at this point, Quill doesn't know yet that they're going to be snowed in together all winter. So Quill is kind of in the dark about that. But Owen is sure about kind of, he likes Quill, and he likes Quill a lot. And so I was going to give you guys...now if you read "Arctic Wild" in the back of "Arctic Wild" there's the first scene for this one, for "Arctic Heat". So I didn't want to read to you from that scene, because if you read "Arctic Wild" you've seen it. So I'm going to give you a little snippet of their first kiss. And it just kind of shows they're dynamic. I think it's just a couple of paragraphs and I'm just going to read it to you. And I'm not as good as my narrators, I have awesome narrators but we're just going to see. So they're leaving a restaurant here. "They each paid their share and then headed outside. The light had started to fade, the midnight sun of the summer long past. The crisp bite to the air making Owen wished he had grabbed more than his hoodie. 'Cold?' Quill asked as Owen rubbed his arm. 'A little, yeah. Warm me up, please. I know a shortcut through the alleyways back to the hotel. Lead on.' Owen followed him as he ducked down the narrow alley, both of them walking too fast for much conversation. 'Whoa!' Quill's arm shot out holding Owen back as an SUV unexpectedly backed into the alley. Yanking Owen into a dark doorway with him, Quill frowned at the vehicle which took it sweet time vacating the alley, long enough for Owen to sense Quill's warmth and nearness. More of that classic intoxicating scent, the harshness of their breathing that much sexier in the close quarters. The charged air around them was made worse with every brush of their arms. "You sure there's nothing on your bucket list?" As the SUV finally moved on, Owen turned to block Quill from an easy exit. 'Nothing I could help with?' 'Not sure,' Quill hissed out of breath which was decidedly not a resounding no. So Owen moved closer. 'I am very open minded and discreet. You could tell me.' 'You're something else,' Quill whispered. But his tone was more awestruck than censuring. 'So I've been told.' Taking a chance, Owen put a hand at his shoulder and was relieved when Quill didn't immediately flinch away or tell him off. 'Come on. Take a chance. Nothing you're curious about?' 'Like what?' Owen's voice with a harsh whisper. 'Mmh.' Owen pretended to think as he leaned in close enough to brush his lips against Quill's neck. Quill was taller but not by so much that Owen had to overly stretch. His skin tasted good, warm, ever so slightly salty. 'This maybe,' he moved to flip Quill's ear lobe with his tongue, 'Or this, so many delicious possibilities.'" And that's the look at kind of what's happening between them when they get started. And you'll have to see the rest. But I loved writing Owen and Quill. They were so much fun, it takes place over a couple of months. So we get to kind of see their progression. It's a little bit of a slow burn, each of the books in the series has been a little more slow burn. But once they get going, there's a lot of heat. And so it was a really fun one for me. And I really enjoyed kind of, whereas "Arctic Wild" had the bigger cast of characters, this is mainly the two of them, dealing with the elements of nature, dealing with each other, dealing with roommates issues. It's kind of the 'Odd Couple' in Alaska. And so it was just a lot of fun. I can't wait for you guys to get to see this in September. Jeff: Have you pre-ordered this yet? Because that forced proximity is so your jam. Will: I have enjoyed each of the books up to this point. But book three hits pretty much everything that I'm looking for in a romance. I mean, listeners, longtime listeners know, forced proximity is my absolute most favorite thing ever. So yes, that reading you just did it's like, whew, I can't wait. Jeff: I think you mentioned that this is a real thing people can do to opt to go snowed-in with a ranger. Annabeth: Yeah, they do. Yeah. So there's volunteer positions all year long with the Alaska state parks. And with the National Parks too, though, those are a little more competitive. But you can go for the summer, you can go for the winter, and they have like little yurts or tiny cabins. Pretty rustic conditions but they're looking for volunteers to basically help the paid rangers out because without the volunteers, they couldn't get nearly as much done as they can. So basically, you become a winter caretaker or a summer caretaker at one of these parks. And you get to help the Ranger but you also get to spend winter in Alaska, with all the snow and a tiny yurt. So stuff like that. And each of the sites has its own housing situation. And so that was some of the research I had to do was figure out, what would the housing situation be like at this particular site, as opposed to other sites? How are they going to get their heat? How are they going to get electric? Do they have access to the internet? All those little questions come up? Jeff: It's fascinating. Would you ever consider doing such a thing? Annabeth: I have small kids. And so sometimes that seems really appealing. Like, "Oh, I could go for three months." And other times, it's like, "No, they'd miss me and I'd miss them and the dog would pine." Jeff: Research trip. Annabeth: I'm going to say my next series is back to Oregon. We're going to be back in Oregon but we're going to be in Central Oregon. And so we are actually taking a research trip as a family towards later in the summer. We're doing a research trip to go into Central Oregon to see some of the places that will be in that series. So I'm excited about that. Jeff: Oh, cool. Not quite the same as snow in a yurt. But, you know, research trip nonetheless. Annabeth: Yeah. Well, I get to bring the kids on that one. So it'll be fun. Jeff: They might enjoy snow in a yurt. I don't know. Annabeth: They would. They would. Yeah. Jeff: You've had a prolific year, even before the "Frozen Hearts" books started coming out. You had new stuff in the "Rainbow Cove" and "Out Of Uniform" series. Are there challenges working across so many series that are so close together in release times? Annabeth: So what I tend to do is I tend to write in blocks. So all three Alaska books were written back to back to back. But in between two of them, I took a little tiny "Rainbow Cove" break. I gave myself five days to write a novella. I was like, "Okay, I'm kind of burned on Alaska, just a little." And so I was like, "Okay, I'm just going to give myself five days because I'm supposed to be writing these books back to back and I'm going to write a "Rainbow Cove" novella. And I did. I wrote 20k in five days. And that became "Lumber Jacked". And obviously editing it and stuff took more than the five days. But I got the basic draft down and then I worked on the edits for that while I went on to Alaska three. And that's how I worked a "Rainbow Cove" in. Because it's not a full length, it's a novella. And then the "Out Of Uniform", that wrapped, actually wrote that last April. So I wrote it April 2018. Then I started Alaska after that. But then it didn't come out until January because that's how publisher schedules work. And so I wrote it as part of Camp NaNoWriMo 2018. It was really fun. Loved writing "Rough Terrain". So it coming out in January was just a joy. But that kind of wrapped up a period of finishing up "Out Of Uniform" and then moving into the Alaska universe. And so I kind of go from universe to universe. I try not to hop back and forth anymore, because I've done that in the past. And I ended up having to reread a lot of my stuff a lot more when I'm going back and forth between series. And so I think the biggest challenge for me has been working in time for "Rainbow Cove" because that one doesn't have publisher deadlines. And so I tend to be overly optimistic with my publisher deadlines, and I'm like, "Oh, I'll get this book done early." And then I'll get another "Rainbow Cove" in. And lately that has not been happening. The books have been going long and complicated. And I love that. I love writing long, I love writing complex books. But it has made it a challenge in terms of working more "Rainbow Cove" in. Jeff: What is going on in "Lumber Jacked", that people who are reading "Rainbow Cove" might want to check out? Annabeth: So that one, like "Rainbow Cove", is set on the Oregon coast, and all the books are. So it has a honest to goodness lumberjack as the hero. He makes a brief appearance in book two but this stands alone. If you haven't read book two, you're fine. And it's just 99 cents and it's also in KU. It's a fun little...it's under 30K because I ended up adding a little bonus epilogue to it. But so it has a lumberjack who is an amateur photographer on the side. He likes to take bondage pictures, and so like rope, like Shibari pictures. Like, there's some really neat artwork done with Shibari. And so he meets this makeup blogger, and the makeup blogger is like, "Maybe I would like to pose for one of these pictures." And so their courtship kind of unfurls from there with photos and lumberjack plaid. And it's a lot of fun. But I really liked the chance to write my makeup blogger hero because there's been so many amazing male makeup bloggers recently, becoming even the face of some major brands and stuff. And so I wanted to show that sort of side of masculinity as well. These guys have embraced more of the makeup loving, glitter loving sides of themselves. And so I wanted to do a hero on that sort of spectrum. And so that was really fun for me to get to do him and contrast him with our big burly, older lumberjack guy. And so it's fun. Jeff: That's cool. And for "Out Of Uniform", is "Rough Terrain" the end of the line for that series? Annabeth: Well, I never say never and I do have more military in Alaska. One of my guys is a former Air Force pilot. And in the 'Heart To Heart' charity anthology coming up this fall - I'll have a marine in that one. So I haven't left military romance completely. But I think "Rough Terrain" kind of brought "Out Of Uniform" full circle in a lot of ways. It felt like book seven, a natural sort of stopping point for this part of the series right now. But I'm not ruling out more SEALs in the future. We'll just have to see what the future brings. There's a lot of things I want to explore and a lot of series I want to do. And so, we'll just have to see. But I think fans that like the "Out Of Uniform" will really like something that's coming from me in 2020, which is going to be smoke jumpers. So I've got the band of brothers again, but they're firefighters. And they're in Central Oregon, like I said. They're in Central Oregon fighting forest fires. And it's going to be really...I'm looking forward to the research and I'm really looking forward to being back with a band of brothers kind of group of friend heroes. And it should be really interesting and fun. Jeff: Is that some of the research you're doing on the Oregon trip this time? Annabeth: Yeah. So we'll be actually going to some Oregon fire stations. We'll look at like both the little towns that they live in. We'll also go to some of the state forest areas there, see some actual forest damage and stuff. I've got some different things planned for us to kind of really...I want to really get my five senses into that area, because I live in Oregon, obviously. But I live more in the valley. And so I'm going more into that Central Oregon terrain, it is way different, like you said. It's way different terrain. And so I want to really immerse myself in that to really get that flavor for readers. Jeff: That's very exciting. You've hinted at some stuff in the future like with "The Smoke Jumpers". Of course, "Arctic Heat" comes out in the fall. Anything else you can tease out in the universe? Fill us with what's coming up. Annabeth: So I have a book coming...so "The Smoke Jumpers" will be coming summer 2020. And in between, "Arctic Heat" and "The Smoke Jumpers", I have my first book with Sourcebooks coming. And it is a YA-NA crossover, little bit lower heat, but a lot of the same fun and energy that a YA-NA...you'd expect in a YA-NA crossover. I think fans who have liked some of the lower heat ones that have been rising up the charts like "Red, White, and Royal Blue", that sort of book, I think they might like this sort of tone. And it's a road trip romance, which I love road trips. Like I just said, I love road trips. And so I'm really excited. It's a road trip romance with gamer guys. They're in college, and they're going to a big gaming convention. Like imagine ComicCon, but it's for a card game that they both play. Like, Magic The Gathering, but I kind of invented a fake card game for them. So they're like these gamer guys who have to make the convention on time to get their chance in the big tournament. And it's going to be a lot of fun. I don't think they've gone public with the title yet. But it is coming in April 2020. And so I can't wait to see the cover they're doing and it's going to be really fun. It's going to be in bookstores, which is...I'm really excited about. So it's going to be in the trade paperback. Jeff: Yeah, we were excited to see...I believe it was the first of the "Frozen Hearts" series that we found in our local Barnes and Noble. Annabeth: I know. I'm so stoked. Readers keep tagging me in pictures in the wild of these books. And it makes me so happy. And readers, if you see the books in the wild, take a picture for me. I do love seeing them, I love...and if you like your local bookstore carrying more LGBTQ fiction, let the bookstore know. Even if you're not buying a book that day, say, "Hey, I'd like to see more fiction like this." Not just mine, but a lot of other authors that are coming into mass market and stuff. The more appetite there is for that, I think the more we'll see that in bookstores and stuff and airport kiosks and stuff. And so I'm excited for that. Jeff: Yeah, it's an exciting time. And it feels like "Red, White, and Royal Blue" may lead some of that too. I know that's not a mass-market book. But the fact that they're getting picked up in Target is pretty exciting. So definitely ask for those books. Annabeth: Yeah. I think the more you see that and my...and Sourcebooks has a lot sort of planned around the release of this road trip romance. That should take it to a broader audience. So I'm really excited to see some of what they've got planned and coming. And so it's been really fun to work on that. And that may end up being a series. We just have to see. Jeff: Cool. I'm thinking on your backlist, is this kind of a first for YA for you? Annabeth: Well, they're college age. And so I've done college age with a high heat level in "Winning Bracket". And then I did college age with a lower heat level in one of my freebies, "First In Line", which is set in the same universe as "Winning Bracket". And so that's a sweeter one, it just has a kiss. The one that I'm talking about is somewhere in between there. There are some love scenes, they're just not quite as graphic. And so it was kind of fun to go back to the college universe and kind of...I love that age of hero and I really enjoyed kind of being in that universe with them and that age for a little bit. And so that was fun. But it's not like YA is typically considered senior in high school and older. So that's why they're calling this kind of a crossover because they are in college but upper YA readers will probably enjoy this. Jeff: Cool. Awesome. I'm excited for that one. Will: Yeah, that sounds... Jeff: I love YA new adult so much. So what's the best way for everyone to keep up with you online? Annabeth: So I'm on Facebook. I have Annabeth's Angels as our Facebook reader group. I welcome everyone into there, whether you've read me or not. If you want to talk about fun books, we welcome people in there. I'm also on Facebook myself. I welcome people to follow me on Facebook. I'm on Twitter and Instagram, little bit less than Facebook. Facebook's kind of my big addiction. But I am on Instagram and Twitter. And I also do playlists for all of my books on Spotify. So if you're on Spotify, you can follow me on Spotify and see kind of the music that's influencing the different books. Jeff: Fantastic. We will link up to all that stuff in the show notes. For sure. Thank you so much for hanging out with us. We wish you the best of luck with everything you've got coming out later this year and into 2020. Annabeth: Thank you. Book Reviews Here's the text of this week's book reviews: Something Like Gravity by Amber Smith. Reviewed by Jeff. This was the summer book I didn’t know I was looking for. Not only is it set during the summer, but--in the best way possible--it moves like a lazy summer, filled with all the best things. It’s hard to explain that aspect of it, but it’s one of the things I loved about this book with the feel that with everything else that happens there was the vibe of the lazy summer. Something Like Gravity opens as summer break from school begins. Chris has just arrived at his Aunt Isobel’s where he’ll stay as he tries to reset after being assaulted the year before as he came out as transgender. Meanwhile, Maia, who lives across the field, is still reeling from the death of her older sister. Over the course of the summer, Chris and Maia find comfort and love with each other, reveal their secrets and are able to heal--although it’s far from easy. The meet cute for Chris and Maia is nearly fatal and sets the tone for how their early relationship works--rather adversarial. Chris goes out for a drive with the car that he gets to use for the summer and he practically runs over Maia, who was stopped on her bicycle in the middle of the road. The two hardly speaking in the aftermath but after that gravity starts to pull them together. In the hands of a lesser writer, building a story of first love set amongst loss and trauma would likely be a disaster. Amber, however, crafts a story that I had a hard time putting down because I wanted to see how things would go--both the cringy difficult moments as well as the super sweet ones. I enjoyed both Maia and Chris’s journeys. Maia’s loss of her sister looms large over her family--Maia, her parents and even the family dog haven’t figured out the way forward. Maia tries to learn more about here sister by looking through all of the photographs and the places in them. Carrying her sister’s camera nearly constantly has many in the small town thinking that she’s trying to become her sister. It’s even something she lets Chris believe--that she is a photographer and has been taking pictures even though the camera has no film. Chris’s family is also under stress. His coming out didn’t go well. Not only was he assaulted, but his mom hasn’t adjusted well and his dad seems to be overcompensating for that. He’s come to Aunt Isobel’s to figure out what he wants to do for the next school year, to give his parents time and to find himself--including getting back to running which he enjoyed so much before the attack. He also has to decide what he wants to share with Maia. Chris and Maia have a lot of internal dialogue and it works so well. There’s a lot for them to work out for themselves and it’s some of the most powerful parts of the book. Some of the lazy summer vibe plays into the romance between Chris and Maia. Amber writes their falling for each other in such a wonderful way. There’s a perfect build up as they learn more about each other--at the same time it’s complicated by big secrets. The moments of meltdown and tremendous emotional stregnth provide significant growth moments for them. The way Amber resolves all plots--Chris and Maia’s relationship as well as between them and their parents--were so well done. I loved the meaningful talks the teens had with their parents over the span of a few days. There was much to handle and, like the rest of the story, the pacing was perfect. Chris and Maia end up in a good place too as they prepare for another year of school. I’d love to see more of these two and how their story continues. Arctic Wild by Annabeth Albert. Reviewed by Will. Buttoned up east coast lawyer Ruben is forced to take a vacation by himself in the wilds of Alaska. Needless to say, the prospect doesn’t thrill him, until he meets Toby, his handsome bush pilot tour guide. Toby has dealt with tough customers like Ruben before, and soon enough they’re enjoying each other’s company while exploring Alaska – until an unexpected storm sends their plane crashing into the remote wilderness. After they’re rescued, Toby needs time to heal from his injuries. Rueben comes up with the plan that he’ll stay in Alaska for the summer, rent a house for himself and his teenage daughter and have Toby stay with them. Ruben can care for Toby, while Toby can come up with activities than Rueben can use to reconnect with his daughter, Amelia. Amelia is no cutesy romance novel kid, she’s realistically surly and constantly annoyed by her dad – but she gradually begins to enjoy her vacation, just as her dad is enjoying all the time spent with Toby. Love is definitely in the air for our two heroes, but both are unwilling to admit that it’s more than just a fling – primarily because they’re both stubborn in their own ways, as well as an unending number of outside obstacles to their happily ever after. Both of them have complicated family and work situations to deal with. After weeks of nighttime cuddles and furtive blowjobs, Toby’s injuries are finally healed enough that he and Ruben can sleep together, it’s magical – and then, as it must in all romance novels, the black moment arrives. A serious issue with Toby’s dad forces him to take a look at his obligations – he wants happiness with Ruben and Amelia, but that doesn’t seem possible. It takes some serious soul searching until Toby finally realizes that he can’t let a misguided sense of pride keep him from accepting help when needed. By the same token, Ruben can’t swoop in and solve everyone’s problems with his money and influence. As with the previous book in this series, the author takes the time to let the story breathe – giving the characters time to know and like one another, before falling in love with each other. This extra time spent on the story also gives readers a chance to know and understand the unique and complicated situation our heroes find themselves in, primarily concerning their obligations to their respective families. Annabeth Albert has written yet another winner with Arctic Wild, giving us a terrific romance featuring two dynamic and interesting heroes that readers are sure to root for.

It's the final week of Pride Month 2019. The guys wish everyone celebrating World Pride in NYC a wonderful time. Jeff talks about being homesick for New York and missing playing hockey. Pose's early season 3 renewal is praised. Will talks about the special Masterwork Experiment happening on The Story Grid Podcast where they are breaking down and analyzing the story structure of Annie Proulx's Brokeback Mountain. Jeff and author/blogger Lee Wind have an extended interview in which Lee discusses his debut YA novel, Queer as a Five Dollar Bill and how he's become engaged in discovering queer history. They also talk about the YA book blog I'm Here. I'm Queer. What the Hell Do I Read? that Lee began over a decade ago. Lee also recommends a couple of his favorite YA books and the queer history project he's trying to jump start on Instagram. Complete shownotes for episode 194 along with a transcript of the interview are at BigGayFictionPodcast.com. Interview Transcript - Lee Wind This transcript was made possible by our community on Patreon. You can get information on how to join them at patreon.com/biggayfictionpodcast. Jeff: Lee, welcome to the podcast. It is so great to have you here. Lee: Thank you so much. I'm really excited to be here, Jeff. Jeff: Now, I recently read your debut novel, "Queer as a Five-Dollar Bill". In fact, I reviewed it back in Episode 189. And absolutely love it. Now, tell people in your own words what this YA novel is about. Lee: So it's all about the fact that I don't have a time machine. When I went...in 2011, I went to a game in summer camp kind of weekend. And there was a guy talking about the letters that Abraham Lincoln wrote Joshua Fry Speed that convinced him that Abraham was in love with Joshua. And I just thought he was full of it. Like how could that have been possibly been true? It's the first time I heard about it. And I went to the library, and I got the letters and I read them and because the emotions Lincoln speaks about are the same emotions I experienced when I was closeted in dating girls and sort of judging it the right thing to do, but not feeling it, I had this moment of sort of goosebumps, and I was like, "Oh my gosh, I think maybe Lincoln was in love with speed." And I thought, "Oh, if I had a time machine and go back and tell my 15-year-old self that the guy on Mount Rushmore, the guy on the $5 bill, the guy on the penny, was maybe in love with another guy, I think it would have changed my whole life. I don't think it would have taken me until I was 25 years old to fully come out. I think it would have been a game changer. But I don't have a time machine. So "Queer as a Five-Dollar Bill" is my paying it forward. I'm a writer, I wanted to write the story about a 15-year-old who's closeted and bullied and dating a girl because he kind of judges it's the right thing to do, but he doesn't feel it. And then he's assigned a book report on Lincoln and he gets the same book that I got from the library, he reads the actual letter, where Lincoln is asking his best friend, after the best friend has gotten married to a woman, "Are you now, in feeling as well as judgment, glad you're married as you are? From anybody but me, this would be an impudent question not to be tolerated, but I know you'll tolerate it for me." And he ends the letter saying, "Please tell me quickly, I feel very impatient to know." And we don't have Joshua's answer, because Mary Todd burned all the letters on that side of the correspondence. But we do know it was only four weeks later that Abraham had married Mary. So to me, it felt like wow, that, like what would happen if a kid today found that out and decided that he wants the world to know? Because everyone loves Abraham Lincoln in our country. And he thought, "Well, okay, so if he tells - the main character, Wyatt - if he tells the whole world that Abraham Lincoln was in love with another guy, he thinks it's going to change how everyone feels about gay people, cue the songbirds and the rainbow and happy ending." I do think if in our culture today if someone was to go really viral with the information that Abraham Lincoln was, wrote these letters and was in love with Joshua Fry Speed, I think there would be a huge conservative backlash and media firestorm. And that's really that what I wanted to show in the novel, how this Wyatt, how Wyatt, this main character makes his way through this incredible maelstrom of fury that he's ignited by just sharing what actually is part of American history. And then to kind of ratchet the stakes up even further, I wanted to make it, like, how was it important for a teenager today? Why is Abraham Lincoln important? So I kind of situated him in Lincolnville, Oregon, a town I kind of made up. His parents own the Lincoln Slept Here Bed & Breakfast. And when the economy of the town kind of starts to tank and they're threatened with losing their business, they bring in a civil rights attorney to help and she has an openly gay son and sparks fly between the two teens. But the main character Wyatt can't do anything about it. Because gay kids saying Lincoln is gay is really different than a straight kid saying Lincoln is gay. And he's faced with his choice, does he follow his heart and see if something might be happening with this guy, Martin? But the cost of that is letting this secret fade back into history, and nothing will ever change in our world. Or does he sort of sacrifice himself and his own happiness, and persist with the story that Lincoln was indeed in love with another guy and see if he can change the world a little bit, even though it won't change for him? So that's the story of "Queer as a Five-Dollar Bill". Jeff: And I feel like even before I read this book that I had heard, you know, some of the rumblings that Lincoln may have had a relationship, may have been gay. So I think it kind of dances around the edge of what some people know, because I can't even begin to tell you where I heard it or anything else, just that it had been kind of back there somewhere in the memory of I don't know, something. Does that even make sense? Lee: Well, it's been a big thing on "Will & Grace", the revived series. They've been doing a whole run on jokes about Jack doing a one-man play called Gaybraham Lincoln, which is sort of all about Lincoln being gay, which I think has been good on the one hand, because it's letting more people know that this is something that people are talking about, but it's also doing so as if it's a farce, as if it's not true at all, and completely made up in a complete flight of fancy on the part of this bigger than life character. When in fact, if you read the letters, it is remarkable how to me it feels so clear that Lincoln was in love with Joshua. Jeff: What was your process for researching the history? Because there's more in here than just the letters themselves. There's a lot of Lincoln history, there's comparisons drawn between Lincoln and Martin Luther King Jr. In my review, you know, I kind of likened it a little bit, you know, you go see "Hamilton" and you get this big infusion of history, while you're wildly entertained. What was kind of your process around gathering all the pieces you needed? Lee: Well, first of all, thank you for comparing it to "Hamilton." That is like the best compliment ever. I need to embroider that on a pillow or something. I did a lot of research. I started out with the letters and then I realized that I just didn't know enough. I looked around and I live in Southern California. And it turns out in Redlands, California, there is an Abraham Lincoln Memorial shrine and museum. And it's like a three-room edifice that has display cases and a gift shop. And so many of the things that ended up being part of the bed and breakfast that Wyatt's parents own were kind of taken from that real-world experience of going to this place and seeing that they actually had, you know, civil war chess sets. And they had, you know, little teddy bears that were gray or blue. And they had, you know, Confederate Flag and a Union Flag. And that was hugely helpful. And then just starting to dig in deeper to some of the things I discovered there, there's a whole sort of subplot about how Wyatt feels that there's no one he can actually talk to. And so he's developed this strange internal dialogue with this image of a soldier in the background of one of their display cases. And I actually have a photo of it from when I went to this Lincoln shrine. And it was there, it was behind all these ammunitions. And I don't know that my gaydar works 150 some years later, but definitely, there's somebody in that, they're one of the soldiers in that photo does look like he could be gay. And I thought, "Wow, what if this was the only way that Wyatt felt that he could have somebody that recognized who he was, and how sad that was that he didn't really have a friend?" And that was why I was excited to create the character of Martin so he had somebody. Jeff: Were you a history buff all along? Lee: No, I hated history. And I'm sure that they're all these teachers that are like hitting their foreheads in shame right now. But like, honestly, I never had a history teacher that kind of got me excited about the stories of history, because I really feel like the way we teach history today, and my daughter's in 10th grade right now and her history textbook could have been my history textbook from the 1980s, where basically, it's the stories of rich, white, straight, cis-gendered, able-bodied men from Europe. And, you know, history is more than that. There are the stories of disabled people and people of color and women and men who loved men and women who loved women and people who looked outside gender boundaries in history. And I kind of feel like, we have to crack that facade of that false facade of history and let people know that that there's all this amazing light and you can see yourself in history. And, you know, Lincoln and Joshua are just sort of like the tip of the iceberg. There's, you know, Eleanor Roosevelt and Lorena Hickok, there's Mahatma Gandhi and his love for this German Jewish architect, Hermann Kallenbach. There's the pharaoh Hatshepsut in Egypt, there is Safa, there's so many stories that impact us today. But we don't really know them because they don't get taught, or when they are taught, they're not taught in a sort of, queer inclusive or respectful manner. So I kind of feel like now I love history. And in fact, I wrote this novel, but as I was writing the novel, there was so much history, there was so many things that came up, so many more pieces of evidence, so many more pieces of the pie, things that made me surprised, like, I didn't really know that Lincoln was sort of a racist, even though he's credited with freeing all the slaves, he had this whole plan that he signed off on with Congress at that time to sort of, you know, explore shipping all black people back to Africa. And I didn't know that. And the deeper I dug, when I found a piece of information that kind of contradicted what I knew, I really wanted to find a way to include it in the story. Because I feel like that's what we should be doing when we find things that show that history is complex, and that people are not black and white, that it just makes it all so much more real and so much more relatable. And if we can see reflections of ourselves in the past, like if we know that there were men who love men in the past, then we can believe that we have a place at the table today. And if we know that we have a place at the table today, we can envision a future that is sort of limitless. And I want that for everyone that doesn't feel like their history is included. I want it for all the women and all the people of color and the disabled people and the women who love women and the people who lived outside gender boundaries, too. Because that's, you know, we call it LGBTQAI+ or QUILTBAG or whatever. But really, the job is about being an ally to other people. And me as a gay man, I have to think, "Well, how can I be an ally to everybody else?" And hopefully, they're thinking the same thing. And that's how we start to create societal change. Jeff:: That is wildly profound. And especially, given that this episode of the podcast is dropping in the last week of June, as you know, the queer community celebrates Stonewall 50. Lee: Oh, yeah. Well, you know, I love that we're celebrating Stonewall, I love that the gender non-conforming people that were there, the transgender people, the drag queens are getting some respect now that they were part of that and they were in fact, the leaders of standing up to the police finally. But for many, many years, Stonewall had a banner, the Stonewall Inn had a banner outside that read "Where Pride Began". And I think that's really misleading. And we talk in the queer community in America as if that's where pride began, right. Like, pride, "Hey, we're celebrating 50 years of Stonewall, Hooray." But wait a minute, Karl-Maria Kertbeny came up with the word homosexual 100 years before Stonewall. Right? Like Lincoln and Speed were writing these letters to each other 20 years before that. You know, you can go back thousands and thousands of years and there's this beautiful story from China before China was unified, where the State of Wey that the guy that ruled it, his name was Duke Ling and he had a guy he loved his name is Mizi Xia. And they were walking through the orchard one day and Mizi Xia picks a peach off a tree and starts to eat it. And halfway through, he stops because it's so delicious. He wants to share it and he gives the half eaten peach to the Duke and the Duke makes a really big deal out of it. Like, "I can't believe your love for me is so profound that you would sacrifice your own happiness to give me the peach." And something about that moment captured the imagination of people in that pre-unified China. And for over 1,000 years, the way in Chinese that they said gay love was love of the half-eaten peach. Like we have this amazing, amazing history. And we just need to kind of breakthrough that facade and let all this amazing rainbow light shine through. So that's kind of what I feel my mission is to kind of let people know that we have all this amazing history, and we can start to dive into it. Jeff: Is this all history? Because you mentioned earlier that you're not, you weren't a history buff and you hated history. Have you gathered up all of this new knowledge since you were researching to write "Queer as Five-Dollar Bill"? Lee: Yeah. So while I was writing "Queer as a Five-Dollar Bill," like I mentioned, there was just so much stuff that came up, so much evidence that I was like, "I can't really cram all this into a novel, because at the end of the day, the novel is really about a kid today." And I didn't want it to feel like a historical novel. I wanted it to be this page-turner. So I realized that maybe it was two books, maybe there was the novel. But what if there's a nonfiction book as well that presents the primary source materials, like a popup video thing on MTV or VH1, whatever it was, helps interpret, or at least how I interpret the thing? So like, there's all this talk about Shakespeare's Sonnets, and how, while they're very rarely taught, over 100 of the sonnets, Shakespeare wrote to another guy. And these are love sonnets that include really, really famous lines that we all recognize, like, "Shall I compare thee to a summer's day. Thou art more worthy, yet more temperate." That's a line that Shakespeare wrote to another guy. For hundreds of years, they had changed the pronouns of that in one of the folios. So it ended up being that for hundreds of years, people thought that Shakespeare wrote all those poems to a woman, to the Dark Lady. But when "The Riverside Shakespeare" came out, the editor of that section, he talked about how, "Well, we've restored the sonnets to their original, you know, pronouns, but you shouldn't mistake that, you know, the affection men felt for each other in the 1500s was nothing like the homosexual attraction today." He wrote this in 1970s. And I'm like, "Really? Really?" Because, you know, "A man in hue all hues in his controlling, Which steals men's eyes and women's souls amazeth," it sounds pretty romantic to me. So what I realized what I wanted to do is to create a book that wouldn't be just a book about Lincoln and Speed, but it would be a book about the broader thing, about men who love men and women who love women and people who lived outside gender boundaries. So there's 15 chapters. One is about Lincoln and Speed, one is about Shakespeare. And then there's, like, you know, a bunch of other amazing people in history, and it really presents the primary source material. And I'm really excited because today - that we're recording this - is the day that I'm signing the contract for that book with a publisher. Jeff: Oh, that is exciting. Congratulations. Lee: Thank you. It's been a long journey, long and crazy journey. Because the book originally was set up at one of the big five publishers, and I worked on it for a year and a half with them. It was approved, we were talking cover design. And then two weeks after our current president was elected, they canceled the book. I think they were concerned that it was going to be too controversial. They just didn't have the courage to proceed. And that was really devastating. And it took a long time to find a new home for it. There were a lot of shenanigans, a lot of plot twists. The agent I had had at the time turned out to be a criminal who, well, she was telling all her clients she was submitting things and that they were having all these pending book deals. She was lying. And the book was never submitted anywhere. Even after it was returned, the rights were returned to me. And the novel, "Queer as a Five-Dollar Bill" ended up getting crowdfunded because I thought that I was being, well, stonewalled by the children's book industry and they didn't want word to get out about Lincoln and Speed so much so that no one would even respond to the submissions. So I crowdfunded it. I have a blog, I think we're talking about that a little bit later. But I have a bunch of people that know who I am and what I was trying to do, and they all supported me to not just publish the book professionally, but also, what I wanted to do is raise enough money to donate at least 400 copies of the novel to LGBTQ and allied teens, and the Kickstarter funded in six days, it was amazing. And then it went on for another 24 days. So we ultimately raised enough money to give away 910 copies. So that's been really, really gratifying. Jeff: That's incredible. I mean, it's really one of the great things about publishing today is that there's really no more gatekeepers out there. Anybody can publish, get it on Amazon, get an audiobook done, etc, and get their messages out there. Lee: There still is the thing, though, that being with a traditional publisher, you generally can reach more, especially when we're talking about like middle grade, you know, or books, where you go into libraries, which I think that this nonfiction book really is a, you know, hopefully, it'll sell like hotcakes. But also, I do think that to get it adopted more broadly into schools and into libraries, I think that coming from an established publisher is really useful and really helpful. So I'm excited about that. I do think that yeah, that there are many, many fewer boundaries than there used to be - or barriers than there used to be. But at the same time, we have the additional challenge that while access to the marketplace has never been easier, the marketplace has never been bigger. So getting noticed in a marketplace, where there's over a million books that are published every year now in the U.S., is a challenge. And that's why it's so important to have safe places to find out about these things, like your podcast, and my blog. Jeff: Yes, absolutely. To spin back on "Five-Dollar Bill" a little bit and talk a little bit more about it. What were your inspirations for both Wyatt and Martin and the type of teenagers they would be? Lee: When I was growing up, or when I was coming out, I think it felt like you couldn't be gay if you lived anywhere except for one of the big cities like San Francisco or New York. And I really wanted to have a character that felt connected to nature. And that one of the thematic subplots would be, 'Could he be himself where he was? Could he be himself in small town America, in a rural community, was there a way through for him to be successfully himself and authentic?' I feel like I spent so much of my life being inauthentic, that I want to do everything I can to help teens be authentic now. So on the one hand, Wyatt was the study of a kid that was on a journey to be authentic and Martin was the flip side of that. Martin was the character that already was authentic, and was already reaping the benefits of that level of confidence. And you know, as soon as you, for me, when I came out, it was like this huge burden off of me. And suddenly, I realized the weight of it was on everyone else, right? Like, if they had a problem with it, that was their problem. But it wasn't me hiding or holding back, or pretending or acting, which I did for so long. My husband and I have a joke, where when you go to a Starbucks or something, they're always like, "What's your name?" And every time my husband changes his name. Like he just makes up different names every single time. And they ask me and I'm always Lee because it took me 25 years to even start to like myself and to accept myself. And I finally got here. And I'm like, "Yeah, I'm not anybody else. I am me. I am Lee." It's funny. I take a spin class and as a motivational thing the spin instructor does, "Who do you want to be today?" I'm always like, "Me, I want to be me." I spent so long being other people. And then also, it was really cool when I was creating Martin's character, to think about him being African American. And that being an opportunity for me to talk about the complexity of Abraham Lincoln and him not being so perfect and explore those themes a little more. And it's funny because I hear from a lot of people how much they love Martin. And yeah, he's pretty lovable. Jeff: Yeah, I really liked them both in their individual ways. For sure Wyatt...I grew up, I spent like middle school, high school, college in Alabama. So I could totally relate to where Wyatt was in his journey like he knows, but there's no way he's telling anybody. And I didn't have a Martin for a best friend. So I also loved Martin, because he was the ideal friend to have for Wyatt in the moment to show him what could be. Lee: Yeah, exactly. Jeff: What do you hope the audience takes away from this kind of history/fiction mashup? Lee: So I think a lot about words, you know, being a writer, and I think that the word homosexual isn't helping us. I think that if we, because we're so reactive and weird in our culture, in America about sex, and we are obsessed with it, and we don't want to acknowledge it. And especially we don't want to talk about it to teens. So when we talk about homosexual rights and homosexual history, all straight people are hearing, you know, to paint with a broad brush, is they're thinking about sex and that we have sex differently than they do and how do we have sex. And I just don't think that's particularly helpful. And I think that if we talked about love as sort of the binding element that makes me and my husband and our teenage daughter a family, or the love between you and your husband, if we talked about HomoLOVEual rights and HomoLOVEual history, I think we'd have a very different cultural conversation. So what the tagline of my book is, "What if you knew a secret from history that could change the world?" And I love this because it gets a little meta. But it's the challenge that Wyatt faces, right? He finds out the secret about Abraham Lincoln writing these letters and maybe being in love with Joshua Fry Speed. And he decides that he's going to tell the world because it could change the world. And then it's the same challenge that I faced because I knew the secret from history and I thought this drumming sense of responsibility, like I had to share it, I had to get it out in the world. And because I wasn't getting anywhere with traditional publishing, I thought, "Okay, well, I'm going to crowdfund it, I'm going to get it out in the world, myself." And then what I am really excited about is that it's also the challenge that the reader faces. Because when you've read the book, or you even heard me talk about the book, you know that there is something more to the story of Abraham Lincoln that has been taught to you. And it's that first crack in that facade of history. And it makes you think, "Well, wait a minute, when you see the picture of Mount Rushmore, or when you pick your kid up at the Lincoln middle school, or you're driving on Lincoln Boulevard, you know, does it occur to you that, you know, our culture has not shared that part of who Lincoln is? And does it make you feel a little more pride about the fact that you know what, we do have history, queer people, and we need to lean into it? And we have the opportunity to because there are hundreds of years of historians that are going to argue with us and that are going to say, "Yeah, yeah, it's not true. It was very typical for men to share beds on the frontier." Not that Springfield, Illinois was the frontier. But for four years, you know, Abraham and Joshua shared a bed long after Abraham could afford his own bed. "Well, it was cold." Okay, yeah. But they shared a bed for four years. It's not proof. But it's interesting. And I think that as all those things add up, we can all make our own determination of what we think, you know. Is it important for me that I convince the world that Abraham Lincoln was in love with Joshua Fry Speed? No. I think a lot about Anne Lamott, she's a writer, and she writes about writing. She has a beautiful book called "Bird by Bird". And in that book, she talks about lighthouses, and how they don't run all over an island looking for boats to save, they just sort of stand there and they shine. And I think a lot about that. Like, I need to be a lighthouse. Like I found out this amazing, cool stuff about history, and how it relates to today, and how empowering it is. And I just want to shine. And if people are interested, they can come closer to the light. And if they're not interested, no worries, you know, watch out, there's some rocks over there. Jeff: Any chance of a sequel? Because I know I would love to see more of Wyatt and Martin at some point Lee: I haven't really come up with a good angle on a sequel, I had this funny idea for...one of the other pieces of history that really struck me was Mahatma Gandhi and the story of his love for Hermann Kallenbach. And we talk a lot about Gandhi having this sort of breakthrough where he talked about it doesn't matter whether you pray facing left and I pray facing right - I may have that reversed. We're all praying to the same God. Like he had this huge breakthrough, not just in terms of, you know, a peaceful protest, Satyagraha. He changed our world in such profound ways. And at the same time, he was in love with this German Jewish architect named Hermann Kallenbach. And if he was in love with a Jewish guy, like that's actually really interesting and really germane. Like maybe that's why he had that inspiration, that insight about it doesn't matter who you're praying to, because it's, we're all sort of bonded by this sense of spiritual connection. Like, that's really exciting. And I feel like there's so many stories like that, like Eleanor Roosevelt and Lorena Hickok. Eleanor Roosevelt was the woman that after, you know, her husband died, she went to the UN and became this advocate for the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. And would she had done that if she didn't have this experience of being in love with another woman, and feeling that sort of outsider status, while at the same time being this empowered woman in our world? History starts to open up like a flower. So I don't have an exact idea for a sequel for Wyatt and Martin, but I will put it in the hopper as ideas. Reason I brought up Hermann Kallenbach and Mahatma Gandhi was that I thought, that would be an interesting thing to talk about a kid finding out about that, and how that would have changed their life. And then about, "Wait, that's the exact same story over again, I don't need to do that. I already wrote that." So for now, I'm going to focus on the nonfiction piece and some other fiction writing that I want to get to that, actually, I'm very inspired by your book too, by the "Codename: Winger" series, because I love the idea of mashing up a gay teen with a sort of spy thriller. Jeff: And I can't wait to read what you might do with that. So please, bring that to the marketplace. Lee: Thank you. I keep thinking, "Is there a way I can get gay history in here somehow?" I haven't figured that either yet. But, you know, I'll work on it. Jeff: You'd mentioned earlier that you've got your blog, which I was so excited to find right around the same time as finding the book. You've been a YA blogger for more than a decade now. I believe you said it'll be 12 years in September. And the blog is called "I'm Here. I'm Queer. What the Hell do I Read?" What led you to starting that? Lee: Thanks. Yeah, there was no safe space to find out what were the books with queer characters for kids and teens. And I remember, there was a review on Amazon for a really sweet picture book called "The Family Book" by Todd Parr. And it's sort of a cartoon-y book. And there's like one page, it says, "Some families look alike." And it's a bunch of dogs that they all have similar features. "Some families look different." And it's a tree with all these different kind of animals in it. "Some families adopt children." And it's a bunch of ducks. And on the back of one duck is a penguin. And then you turn the page and it's, "Some families have two moms or two dads." And it's a picture of two women and two men. And then it continues, and there was a review, pretty high up that said, "If you tear out the page with the two moms and dads, then this is a lovely book on diversity." And I thought, "Wow, way to miss the entire point of what diversity is." And I got so upset and so hurt, you know, because I'm a gay dad. And I thought this was an amazing book for my daughter, but also for all of my daughter's classmates to see and recognize, "Yeah, yeah, you know, some families do have two moms and two dads." And to Amazon, that wasn't hate speech, it didn't violate their terms of service, it was just somebody's opinion. Albeit kind of, you know, nasty, or at least I interpreted as nasty. And it got me thinking about how there really needed to be a safe place online, where a kid could go and find out what are the books that were out there. And when I started, there were maybe 30 books total that were inclusive of LGBTQ characters and themes for kids and teens. And what's happened over the years is that by keeping this curated safe space, where I'm not vetting all the books, but I'm making sure that no nastiness is happening on the site. We have over 500 books now in many, many categories. And it's been really exciting to see that sort of explosion of content. And yet, it's that sort of similar problem again. Like now, suddenly, there's so much content, how do you make your way through it? How do you find the things that you want? So the idea behind it was to post about the books, what's queer about the books, and then let readers add their own reviews. There hasn't been a lot of review, there's just too many places for people to leave reviews these days. So I don't see a lot of that. But I also didn't want to make it, you know, "Lee's favorite book site" because I think that that has a limited value, I thought that there was more value in it being a site that felt really comprehensive. And that's what I aim for. And then it just became a place where I could talk about the stuff that I really care about, that I want queer and allied teens to know about. And over the years, what I've discovered is that the readership is split into thirds. There's about a third, queer teens and queer and allied teens on it. There about a third of librarians and teachers and people that work with LGBTQ teens. And then there's a whole bunch of adults that are sort of reading the books for themselves and sort of healing their inner teen. And I think that there is a healing that happens. Every time I read a queer book that has a happy or even a hopeful ending, there's a healing that happens. And I think maybe that's part of why romance as a genre is so popular. I know Will was saying in a previous episode that people get on his case for like ruining the ending, but it's all romance, you know it's going to be a good ending. And I think maybe that's why people turn to it. So I know how empowering it is for me when I read something where I see a reflection of myself, and it's a positive thing. Because when I was growing up, there was nothing to read, nothing positive. The only queer characters were like evil pedophile villains, it wasn't particularly helpful. Jeff: Yeah, that's, unfortunately, the case in the history that you and I have from that era when we were growing up. In the decade-plus that you've been running the site, other than just more YA, how have you seen it all evolve? Lee: There's more, and there's better and there's deeper, and there's less preachy and there's room for it all. It's funny, there was a kind of push a few years back for...well, maybe we're beyond the coming out story. And I kind of got my dander up a little bit on that. And I felt like, "Well, we're never going to be beyond the first love story when it's, you know, a straight romance. So, Andrew Solomon has this great book that he wrote called "Far From the Tree" and it's a nonfiction piece. And he talks about how, you know, when your identity is...where you're the apple that does fall far from the tree, or falls from the tree and rolls across the, you know, down the hill and across the orchard, when you're queer, most likely your parents were not. And so you have this moment where you have to find your sense of community outside of the family that you grew up in. A lot of other identities, you share that. Like, usually, like me, I was raised Jewish and so I would, you know, my parents were Jewish. So I sort of shared that identity. For all of our identities, we sort of are either sort of close to the tree or far from the tree. And when you're far from the tree, there's more work involved. So coming out, I think is going to continue to be this universal thing. Because just like, you know, my daughter has two dads, but she's straight. So in a funny way, she's going to have to, you know, she had a bit of a coming out where she had to tell us, sort of, you know, abashed, hoping that we'd be okay with it, that she was straight. And we had a good laugh about it. Because it's not that big a deal for us. We just want her to be her authentic self and to be happy. So we do want to have coming out books, and we also want to have books where being gay, like your character Winger, Theo, where it's the least interesting thing about him. I loved when you said that in your interview. Because yeah, we want those stories, too. It's like in acting, right? In improv, the rule is yes/and. So we want these books, and we want those books. We want the fantasy, we want the romance, we want the science fiction, we want all of it because truly, if you look at the numbers of books that are published - traditionally there about 5,000 books published a year for kids and teens. And then, if you look at the world of self-publishing, let's say that 5,000 are doing it really beautifully. And the books are indistinguishable with the quality of that from traditional publishing. That's 10,000 books a year, a year. And you have all those years going back too. So what we want is the opportunity to sort of have all of those books and right now we still only have like 500. So we have a long way to go. We need lots more books, we need lots more voices, we need people writing their own voices, stories, we need more diversity included in everybody's stories because truly, you're not going to have a classroom today that doesn't include someone that's LGBTQ, we need it all. Jeff: That's very true. Given that you had the blog, did you always see yourself eventually writing the YA novel that you did? Or did that just kind of manifest itself because you have the story to tell? Lee: I've always been a writer. I've written...I remember one summer when I was like between 9th and 10th Grade in high school, I was like, "I'm going to write a novel." I sometimes think of those poor characters still trapped in the broken space station that was orbiting the Earth. And I'm like, "Oh man, I have to do something with that someday." I don't think I will. I've always written. I think that for the last 14 years, I've really focused on writing for kids and teens. I also write picture books and middle grade. And when I found out this thing about Lincoln and Speed, it really inspired me to focus on writing that as a novel. I think that the blog has been a way to have my voice heard in a more direct way, and not wait for somebody to tap me on the shoulder and say, "Okay Lee, we're ready for what you have to share." So that's been really empowering. I remember, when I started the blog, there were very few people reading it, and I would get all excited, I'd be like, and I'd tell my husband, "Hey, 15, people went to my blog today." And I was so, so excited. And now, all these years later, we passed 2.6 million page loads. I get between, you know, 15,000 to 25,000 page views a month. It's remarkable, and humbling, and also a really cool responsibility to continue to maintain this safe place. And at the same time, I'm trying to keep writing and work on the new stuff, which has been really a good thing, because balancing the day job and the blogging, there's a lot but I have stories I want to tell. And I'm going to keep trying to tell them. Jeff: Good. Yeah, keep putting it out there. Because we always need more, to be sure. For people who haven't seen the site yet, and we're certainly going to link to it in the show notes. It has an amazing hero image across the top of the superhero. Where did that come from? And where did the name come from? For folks who might question the name too, because I have a pretty good idea where the name came from. But let's hear it from you. Lee: Sure. So "I'm Here. I'm Queer. What the Hell do I read?" is a play on words of something we chanted in Act Up in the '80s and '90s. The chant was "We're here. We're queer. Get used to it." And I thought, well, my issue is a little more "What the hell do I read?" Because I felt so starved for any books that included somebody like me. I mean, you know, I grew up and I really and truly thought I was the only person in the world that felt the way I felt about other guys. And which was super ironic, because I have an older brother, who's five and a half years older, and he's gay too, but we never spoke about it. We are the children of immigrants and when my parents came from Israel, they sort of brought all their homophobia with them. And the American culture at the time was super homophobic, especially where we lived outside Philadelphia. It was not a safe place. And it's so amazing to think that you can grow up and feel like you're the only person and everything I read, I was obsessed with the series by Anne McCaffrey called the Dragonrider series. And there was this super between the lines, sort of thematic thing that you could maybe interpret that there was gay stuff happening in that world, but you had to really stretch for it. And looking back, I think, well, maybe that's why I was so obsessed with that book, with that series, because there was some faint, not even mirror reflection, but like the gleam of a tarnished piece of silverware. I was like, "Wait, wait, maybe that's me." So that's where "I'm Here. I'm Queer. What the Hell do I read?" came from. The image happened a few years later. I had been running the site for about two years, it had been doing really well. And I realized I wanted to have a customized image. And yet, it's a pretty wordy title. So I realized I needed an image that didn't have any additional words to it. So I contacted someone I knew, an artist I knew, Jim DeBartolo. And, I said, "Look, I need an image that says empowerment." And he came up with this sort of superhero moment of like ripping the denim shirt off. And there's this sort of T-shirt underneath with the sort of superhero logo, which is the website, which is leewind.org. And it was funny. We tried to play with the sort of partial face that you see, we tried to, you know, could we make it a person of color? Could we do some things with you, know, the physique? But ultimately, it was sort of an avatar of me, and it took me years to admit it that's sort of what of course it is, it's an avatar of me, but I don't have that good a jawline. But at least in my mind, I think that it's been this sort of symbol of empowerment. And that's really what I hope that people get from visiting the site, from reading anything I write. I want them to feel empowered. Jeff: I like that. That's a great story behind that. Lee: Thanks. Jeff: So relying on your...I'm going to call it a YA expertise because of the site that you run. What are three or four titles of current YA that you would recommend our audience to take a stab at? Lee: Sure. So I have to start with "Carry On" by Rainbow Rowell. I know it's not super recent. But this is the gay Harry Potter book that I wanted so badly. And I was so frustrated that JK Rowling didn't include Dumbledore as being gay in the canon. It sort of was outside the books that that revelation happened and you can go back and sort of, you know, read subtexts and stuff. But I really was hoping that there would be some sort of, you know, on the page, queer love or something, and it didn't happen, there was really nothing. And, you know, Rainbow Rowell, she wrote two books, one about the girl that writes the fan fiction, which is called "Fangirl", which is really good. And then there was this book, which was the fan fiction, that ended up being a huge success on its own, called "Carry On". And I don't want to say too much, but it is absolutely brilliant. And if you are queer, or love queer stories, and you had any connection to Harry Potter, and that sort of world of magic, you've got to go read this. It's just wonderful. Jeff: Excellent. Her books have been on my TBR forever. And I actually need to take the leap and read them. Lee: Read this one first. It's just you will be so happy you did. Jeff: So you mentioned the nonfiction that you've just signed the contract on and other stuff noodling around in your head... anything else you want to shout out that's coming up soon for you? Lee: So there are a bunch of things percolating. But nothing has come to full boil yet. So I will let you all know when it does. Jeff: That is fair. I can't wait to hear what they are. Because I think that, yeah, having read the one book from you, I'm looking forward to reading so much more. So where can people keep up with you? There's leewind.org as we talked about, which is the "I'm Here. I'm Queer. What the Hell do I read?" site. Anyplace else people should be looking for updates? Lee: Yeah. I mean, I'm playing around with Instagram. I'm trying to do this thing. I had the idea that we could do a #queerhistoryiseverywhere. And I wanted people to upload photos of Abraham Lincoln or the word Lincoln wherever they saw it and just start posting it on Instagram. It hasn't exactly caught on yet. But I still like that idea. Jeff: Maybe our podcast listeners will play along with that. Lee: Oh, yeah, that would be really fun. And also, I mean, as, you know, more queer history happens. I was speaking at the Bay Area Book Festival recently and someone came up after my panel and they said, "Did you know that Bābur from the Bāburnāma when he was a teen he was in love with another boy?" I was like, "Really?" Totally, I have sitting on my desk right next to me right now the "Bāburnāma" and indeed, when he was 18, he was in love with this other boy. And it's so exciting to find out this stuff. So I feel like because it's been hidden, the more we can crowdsource this information and share it and then all amplify each other. I think it's very, very exciting. Jeff: Very cool. So we will link to all that stuff, the books we talked about - everything else - in our show notes. And Lee, I'm so glad we got the opportunity to talk, spread the word a little bit more about this book and the website and thank you for all you're doing to get more out there about YA literature too. Lee: Thank you, Jeff. I really want to say thank you to you and to Will. I'm really a fan of the podcast and getting to be on it as a real thrill. So thanks.

Jeff opens the show talking about the work he's doing on the manuscript for the Hat Trick re-release. New patron Lucy is welcomed. The guys talk about Tales of the City on Netflix and the new season of Pose on FX. Will reviews Anticipating Disaster by Silvia Violet while Jeff reviews Prince of Killers (Fog City #1) by Layla Reyne. Jeff interviews Layla Reyne about the new Fog City series as well as how it felt wrapping up the Trouble Brewing series earlier this year. They also talk about Layla's RITA nominated book, Relay, and the upcoming fall release, Dine with Me. Complete shownotes for episode 193 along with a transcript of the interview are at BigGayFictionPodcast.com. Interview Transcript – Layla Reyne This transcript was made possible by our community on Patreon. You can get information on how to join them at patreon.com/biggayfictionpodcast. Jeff: Welcome Layla back to the podcast. It’s great to have you here. Layla: Thank you for having me back. Jeff: I had to have you back to talk about this new series, “Prince Of Killers,” as listeners will have heard right before this interview, blew my mind to pieces and back. Layla: That’s what I wanna hear. Jeff: Tell everybody what this new series is and in particular what they have to look forward to in “Prince Of Killers.” Layla: Sure. So the series is “Fog City.” It’s set here in San Francisco. It’s a new romance suspense series. You don’t need to have read any of my series before that. I won’t say that there aren’t some Easter eggs for those that have, because we are all existing in the same place and time. But, this is a little different because this is following a family of assassins. So in books one to three of the “Fog City” trilogy, starting with “Prince of killers,” you’ve got Hawes Madigan, who runs a cold storage business by day, a very successful family kind of business in the city. And then by night, the families, they’re assassins. And he and his two siblings, Helena and Holt, are kind of the triumvirate that is currently the heir apparent. He’s the heir apparent and they kind of all run it together. His grandfather is ailing and so that’s kind of the setup and fairly successfully he is making some changes in the organization. And so in comes…in the first scene, which is actually set at one of my favorite restaurants in the city, Gary Danko, walks Dante Perry who kind of has this strut about him, you know, long hair, looks like a rock God. But he’s carrying a gun, which he immediately notices, Hawes does, and Perry tells him, “There is someone trying to kill you.” And Hawes kind of laughs it off to start with because, dude, he runs an organization of assassins. That’s what they’re paid for. But then as Hawes and the family come to learn, it does look like someone is trying to stage a palace coup, so to speak. And so “Prince Of Killers” involves sort of the first stages of that and them trying to figure out who it is. And Dante has his own motivations as well. You know, he is trying to find the killer of someone who was close to him and Hawes doesn’t want him to find out who that is either. So I will leave it at that without spoiling too much. Jeff: Let’s talk about the elephant in the room a little bit, and that is the fact that while you have left, for example, the books of the Whiskeyverse on some subtle cliff hangers, this one’s bigger than normal for you. Layla: Yeah, I’m not hiding anything, guys. This one’s got a cliffhanger. I wouldn’t say anyone’s life is in jeopardy, but it’s definitely a cliffhanger. I have made no bones about that “The Usual Suspect” is one of my favorite movies. So hello. And, you know, I grew up in TV land and so I love cliffhangers and I kind of embrace it with this. And, you know, the good thing is the plan is for all the books to be out this year. All the covers are done. By the time this airs, book two will be in the hands of editors and I should be working on book three by then. So, they will all come this year and it’s in the blurb. So you know, everybody, fair warning. I’m not trying to hide it here. So… Jeff: Yeah. And I love how you make the analogy to TV because I would put the cliffhanger that you did on the level of like the mid-season break. Not quite the end of season break, but that mid-season, it’s Christmastime, we’re gonna go away for a while and we’ll have a big thing when we come back. Layla: That’s right. It’s the end of November sweeps. Jeff: Exactly. Layla: That’s where we’re at, not gonna lie. And then book two picks up right where it ended and goes on in there. Jeff: Yeah. Which I’m super looking forward to. Layla: I’m writing. It’s been a…It’s fun and, you know, I can’t…yeah, I can’t spoil anything. Jeff: Yeah. Don’t say anything else. I don’t wanna know. I don’t want the listeners to know. Layla: Okay. Okay. Jeff: What was the inspiration for “Fog City” overall? Because since you’ve gone with this family of assassins, it’s certainly different from what we’re used to in the Whiskeyverse where you’ve got all the, you know, FBI agents and other kinds of, you know, law enforcement as your main characters. Layla: So ironically, I was wandering through Wander Aguiar’s photography website looking for covers for a different project and I saw this picture of what will be the book three cover. And I had to know what the hell is their story. I mean it just jumped at me and I was like, I have to know the story. And then one of my good writer friends, Allison Temple said, “You can’t buy the pictures until you have a story.” She’s like, “Do not spend the money.” So by the end of the weekend, I had the story. I had all three of them and then I was like, “Okay, so let me piece together the three covers.” And so that’s kind of how it, in its original, came about, you know, thinking about doing it. So art really did inspire art in this case because the photos were just amazing. I wanted to branch out and do a little bit of something different. There have been hints of the people in the gray area, you know, Jamie, good guy, but some of that hacking is not exactly on the up and up. Mel, I think we saw go more and more, you know, in her bounty hunter business and be a little bit more flexible once she left the FBI. And so kind of going from there and wanting to play more in that gray area and having read books too, L.J. Hayward’s “Death And The Devil” series, in particular, you know, it’s fun and it’s to some extent pretty liberating. I don’t think it was…it wasn’t harder. There are less rules. Right? I don’t have to check the FBI’s hierarchy chart every day to make sure I’m naming someone the right position. So in that regard, it’s actually been a bit easier. Jeff: Your shades of gray is 100% right because it’s not a spoiler to say that Hawes, not only did he have the legit business on the side, but he’s even trying to modify the ways that the family does the assassin business to make it, I guess, less bad maybe. Layla: Yeah. So, there’s an event that happened three years ago that kind of drives a lot of the series and when you read you’ll find out what that is and to the extent it drives Hawes’ three rules, which are in the blurb, which is no indiscriminate killing, no collateral damage, and no unvetted targets. So, if they’re not…He is turning the organization away from kind of the killing machine that his grandfather, Papa Cal, was. And his parents were very methodical, very efficient, not a whole lot of emotion in it. And so, he’s trying to find the balance between those two of it being, you know, I don’t wanna say the killer with a heart of gold, but he is a killer with a conscience. And so he doesn’t even like the moniker Prince of Killers and what that stands and how it came about, which you’ll read about in the book as well. So, he’s definitely a great character. And then when you look at the broader picture of everyone in the series, Holt is, you know, this…he has a kid and he is, first and foremost, a father, right? And he is a hacker and he, because of where he’s at in his life, has pulled back to being kind of the digital assassin of the bunch. And then Helena, who is the sister, who is my typical female complete badass, love her, she works for…she does a criminal defense work in her day job where she is actually working for people who are wrongfully accused. And so there’s some shades of gray in her as well. And then even one of the other side characters is the chief of police who has an interesting relationship with the Madigans and he knows that there is some benefit to what they do and you’re gonna find out there’s some backstory with him as well as to where he is. So, there’s a reference to him in…If you’ve read “Trouble Brewing,” there’s a reference to him in “Noble Hops.” It’s the same chief, for those who are watching, that read that. So… Jeff: That was one of the Easter eggs that I missed. Because you and I have talked about the Easter eggs and there was some that I caught it and some was like, “Dang it.” Layla: So that’s one of…he’s the new chief, you know, that’s a little bit more flexible in the way things are done. And so everybody…and then Dante is also, you know, playing in his shades of gray as a PI and how far he’s willing to go and what he’s doing personally and professionally. Like where’s that line for him? Jeff: Helena is the one that I found the most interesting in her shades of gray because here’s an officer of the court who occasionally does some, you know, very illegal things, which isn’t to say that, you know, all lawyers are, you know, on the right side of the law. But for her, it seemed like really… Layla: Right. And she makes a line about balancing out her karma, right? That’s kind of how she approaches it to some extent of, you know, part of what they’re doing and why he…particularly Helena and Hawes are so well aligned like that, you know, Hawes wants the contracts of the people the law can’t reach or that escape the law, you know, who get around it, let’s just say, because of who they know or who they pay. And that’s kind of who their targets…that’s the targets he wants. People that have, you know, skirted justice for nefarious reasons. And her day job is the people who justice has wrongfully done. And so they kind of work hand in hand and her feeling on it plays to both of her careers. Jeff: You mentioned in this book you had less rules, so like, you’re not looking upon the FBI flow chart and things. Were there challenges to coming at these characters who had these shades of gray or was it…”free for all” is a little bit much, but certainly more freeing I guess. Layla: Yeah, certainly challenges. Though, I mean, you still have to balance the fact that, “Hey, they’re killing people.” Right? And how you balance that with their conscience, with the people around them, particularly Kane, who was the police chief, has a lot to deal with and going on kind of. So yeah, I mean it is definitely there. There were different challenges for me, I kind of liked it because I got to go a little bit more, even though it’s a shorter book than usual, I think going into their heads more than I typically would because there’s a lot more internal conflict – while still having tons of external conflict. I felt like there was more internal conflict about what they’re actually doing than, you know, being an FBI agent and knowing you’re on the right side of the law. So this was more…they had to kind of walk that line, particularly Hawes. Jeff: One of the things I like most about the book that is…in a lot of ways, it’s separate from the romance and it’s separate from the suspense element a lot is the family unit. And it’s a recurring theme, at least in the books that I’ve read of yours from, you know, Irish And Whiskey and their families. And then what we see of the families in “Trouble Brewing” of the main characters. And here I really feel like maybe it’s because we’re so much closer to the family that we really, even in the shorter book, get a lot about Hawes and Holt and Helena and their interaction with each other. What was your plan as you like populated this family and the characters that you wanted to put on the page? Layla: So, it kind of, I would say, came about organically to an extent. The first scene I wrote like that weekend when I saw the pictures, I wrote it and then I posted it in my little reader group’s like, “I hate you.” And in that first scene, actually there’s a reference to the siblings, but you actually don’t see them, but then they pop up. And part of it too was I had already found their pictures as well. I kind of knew who they all were, but, I also knew who we needed to do X, Y, and Z from a plot standpoint. I also didn’t want Hawes to be an island to himself. Right? And to some extent, giving the life that he lives. And, you know, the two aspects of his life, that family is gonna be the only…like they can’t really let anyone else get close. Right? And so, they’re so tight with the family. That’s the only people they trust. And so, that’s, I think, particularly why, you know, that’s who he debriefs with. That’s who they’re planning with and everything because that’s kind of it. And then, sort of, you have in that expanded family, you also have Holt’s wife, Amilia, and you have the grandmother, Papa Cal’s wife, and like that’s the tight-knit crew. And it has been that way for that family for three generations. And that’s kind of what you find out is that, this is what they do. And because of that, they have to keep it close to the vest and the families who they trust. Jeff: But even through that, you’ve got Helena pushing on Hawes to make the connection to find somebody. Which I love because even as all hell’s breaking loose, it’s like think about doing that because you could have what Holt has. Layla: Yeah. They both…you know, Holt’s happily married with a kid. And I think for both, for Hawes and Helena, you know, that’s the ideal. Their parents were happily married, right? Papa Cal and Rose were. So you can have happiness, right, in this. You just have to find the person who accepts it and where’s that line? And Dante is someone who could be that person, right? He comes in and he seems to know what they do. He seems to be okay with it. And it’s got a hint of insta-lust for sure. Like they’re immediately attracted to each other, but it’s not until later where Hawes kind of starts to think, “Huh, here’s this person who maybe gets it and is okay with it,” the way that Holt and Amelia ended up working out. And Amelia is part of the group, she actually has her own specialty with pressure points and being kind of a perfect Trojan horse for the group because she’s not as out there as the rest of the Madigans are with the business. So yeah. So, he starts to see that. And Helena is kind of also walking a thin line of, “I wanna be happy, but do we know who this dude is?” Right. “Hey, Buddy. Okay, go have fun. But be careful.” So, he’s trying to be the rational one in that scenario. Jeff: So, we know that this is a trilogy. How far does “Fog City” go overall? Do you have a grand plan? Layla: I do, I do. Hawes and Dante will have a trilogy. So they’re the main characters through books one to three. And then Helena will have a book and then there’s another fifth book, but I’m not gonna say who that is because that’ll spoil things. But everybody will get their HEAs by the end of it. I’m looking at five and then I’ve got some ideas for spin-offs and I may already have some cover photos bought for them. I would say I like building big verses, right? I mean, I grew up…I mean my intro to really reading a lot of romances, Kristen Ashley, and I love that big verse concept. And so I like building them too. Jeff: And if you, you know, put it back on TV, I mean, you look at things like the Arrowverse and all of its characters or all of the Chicago shows on NBC, you can have all of your one big, huge comboverse. Layla: Yeah. No, and that’s kind of like that. I grew up in all that too. I was a TV person first. I come from that world where it is all intertwined like that. I like doing that. I like cameos and seeing characters and it’s fun. And you know, Mel runs everything, just remember that. That’s all you need to know. Jeff: Even if the characters don’t know that, she’s really in charge. Layla: Everything. Yeah. Jeff: Now, we gotta give you a congrats too because in the midst of you getting this ready, it was announced you’re a finalist for the Romance Writers of America RITA Award, for the book, “Relay.” Layla: Yes. Yes. Jeff: Which is awesome. For those who don’t know, tell us what “Relay” is about. Layla: “Relay” is book one and the “Changing Lanes” duology, which is “Relay” and “Medley.” So, two books. The duology follows the four men who are on the U.S. men’s medley relay team, swim team. And so, the first book, “Relay,” which was nominated, is about Alex Cantu and Dane Ellis, who had a little summer love affair at a training camp 10 years ago and didn’t go well because Dane is the son of an evangelical minister and very closeted. And so he ends up on the same Olympic team with Alex, who is the team captain, who’s worked his tail off basically to get where he’s at and he is…you know, it’s enemies to lovers to start. Obviously, there’s a lot of friction there from what happened in the past. And then they end up on the relay team together, have to work together. And so then you’ve got a bit of a second chance love story. That’s what it rolls into. And so you see up through the first two legs of training camp and Olympic training in the first book. So you see the two domestic sites. And then in the second book, “Medley,” which follows the other two characters, Boss and Jacob, that’s a mentor-mentee. A little bit of an age gap, like 26 to 19, I think. And Jacob’s this lovely like pirate-quoting cinnamon roll. I love him. He’s so much fun. And two bi characters. Jeff: Pirate-quoting cinnamon roll? Layla: Yeah, he’s a cinnamon roll character, like, he’s a total dork. Jeff: I love that description of him. Layla: And so, then you see international training in the Olympics in that book. So they go hand in hand. And I’m really…you know, there are definite problems with the RITA awards has been brought up with getting better representation. I am happy this book got through. Alex is a character of color. And, you know, when I wrote this, I wanted to say, you know, “This is the U.S. Olympic team, a representation that I would like to see,” right, that’s diverse in sexuality and race and, you know, I’m glad that it did get to the finalists because that’s at least out there. Jeff: And again, congrats for that. That’s cool. I’ll have to go pick that up now because I have not picked up your sports books and I’m certainly like a sports romance lover anyway, so… Layla: One of my good friends was a competitive swimmer up through college and so I talked to him a lot and then one of my other friends swam up through high school and then a little bit in college too. So, it was something different, you know, and I think it was right about the Olympics time where we started talking about that idea and then it just rolled. Jeff: As I mentioned, there was some research involved there too, just to know what the training program was like and where it happened. Layla: And then some of it was my own, like, but too, they go to Vienna for training and I studied abroad there. And I’ve kinda always wanted to put it in a book. And so that was a lot of fun – everywhere there is somewhere that I went and even the fight that happens up in the wine country kind of happened to a friend. And so it was interesting like to see kind of, it was a different source of the fight, but you know, I was traipsing through this little village in the middle of the night going, “Where’d you go?” Jeff: That’s awesome. Drawing from real life events. You’ve got a bit of a con schedule going on this year. You’re headed to BLC so you’ll be at the first incarnation of Book Lovers Con in New Orleans, but you’re also making your very first trip to GayRomLit this year. Layla: I know, I can’t wait. It’s finally back out here, relatively close to us on the West Coast. I’m so looking forward to that. You know, I loved…I’ve been to an RW International and then I went to RT last year and I love the reader interaction like that. I like that part of it so much. And so that’s why I’m going back to Book Lovers Con to get more of that, but then I really want to go to GRL because those are particularly our readers, right, and my favorite authors, so I can’t, you know, wait to meet some folks. See folks that I met last year, meet others, and then like… two of my closest writing friends I’ve never met in person, they’re both going to be there. So I can’t wait for that. Jeff: So name drop a little bit. Who are these people you’re meeting in person for the first time? Layla: Well, what’s cool at Book Lovers Con is that I’ll get to meet Annabeth Albert, who’s been a sprint partner, publishes with the same…with Carina Press too. So that’ll be awesome. But then, yeah, at GRL, it’ll be Erin McLellan, who you actually reviewed “Clean Break,” and Allison Temple. So we’re looking forward to that. Jeff: Very cool. Now, of course, “Fog City” continues through this year. I know you’ve got at least one other book sneaking it’s way out there. What else is coming up this year? Layla: So there’ll be the three “Fog City” books and then “Dine With Me” comes out in September and it’s very different from everything else. So, well, I guess not, you know, if you read my books, and even in “Fog City,” there’s food, there’re restaurants because I am a complete and total foodie. And so “Dine With Me” is kind of my love letter to restaurants that I’ve loved, to food experiences that I’ve loved. And it follows Miller Sykes who is an award-winning chef who gets a diagnosis, a medical diagnosis, and basically if he gets treatment, he will lose his sense of taste. It’s a high likelihood that the treatment and surgery will compromise the sense of taste. And as a chef, dude, how? Like even as a foodie, you know, God, I can’t imagine and I can’t even…as a chef, wow. And so rather than get treatment, he decides to go on the last tour of his favorite meals. And it’s not just high end, you know, it’s dive bars and, you know, there are high-end restaurants also all across the spectrum for everything a different place offers. And that’s partially my experiences too, everywhere there is based on somewhere I’ve been. And then Clancy Rhodes who is the financial backer for this effort is kind of along for the ride. He’s a total foodie, experiencing it, and how he starts to piece together what’s going on and also starts to realize they have a lot in common. Despite, you know, a bit of an age gap and coming from different places in different worlds, they are both kinda facing these great expectations and how to handle that. And he has to convince him that, you know, life is more than just your taste buds, right, and that love’s worth it. And so it’s the book of my heart. It’s been in my head for years. I’ve sat on the first chapter since 2015, 2016 it was on the initial list of blurbs I gave my agent, and we finally found a place to make it happen. So I’m super excited about it. Jeff: That’s awesome because it’s always good to get the book of your heart out there. Layla: Yes. Yeah. Like I said, it’s different. You know, there is a ticking clock aspect to it given the diagnosis and what’s going on but, there’s not a car chase, which is unusual. But it’s a much more internal book and a lot of food gushing. So, you know, I generally say have snacks and tissues, just FYI. Jeff: That’s not really a bad thing for any book to have the snacks and the tissues nearby. Layla: You’ll really need it. So, I’m excited. That comes out September 16 and that’ll be from Carina, that one will. Jeff: Cool. And I have to ask before we wrap up, how was it to wrap up the Whiskeyverse for now – as “Trouble Brewing” wrapped up earlier this year? Layla: Yeah. I mean, good. Right. I like where everybody got to. I loved writing that last scene in “Trouble Brewing” and “Noble Hops.” You know, it was just kind of a nice – everybody’s where they should be. Right. I was glad to give everybody their happily ever after there. I did see some things, which are in the pipeline. And so, things may happen in the future depending on time and whatnot. But I’m excited for it and I’m glad Nick and Cam and Mel and Danny and Aiden and Jamie all got their happy. They definitely deserved it. Jeff: Yeah. Yes, they did. They worked for it. Layla: They worked for it. Jeff: Yeah. It was such a satisfying read. If anybody hasn’t picked those books up, they need to for sure. Layla: Thank you. Jeff: So what is the best way for folks to keep up with you online so they can keep track of all the “Fog City” releases and the upcoming “Dine With Me” and everything else? Layla: Yeah, so probably my Facebook group, Layla’s Lushes is where I’m at the most. And you can find a link to that on my Facebook page too, which is just Layla Reyne. So, that’s me on pretty much all the platforms on Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram. I’m on Instagram a fair bit. There’s a lot of food and my pugs there, so just FYI. I would say the reader group and the newsletter too, which is on my website, there’s a banner, so it’s laylareyne.com and you can follow and find it there. Jeff: Yup. We will link to all that in the show notes along with all the books. The reader group is the place to be because it’s where you find out about like, oh, the first chapter of “Fog City” well before anybody else does. Layla: Yeah. I kind of like…I have a hard time sitting on stuff. I ran one of the big “X-Files” spoiler sites back in the day, so if that tells you anything, I’m a bit of a spoiler junkie and have a tendency to spoil things though, just FYI. Jeff: Yeah. Everybody should go join up with that if you’re into Layla’s books in any shape, form, or fashion. Layla: Yes. Jeff: All right. Well, Layla, it’s been so good talking to you. Thank you so much for the great read that is “Prince of Killers” and I look forward to keeping track of “Fog City” as the year progresses. Layla: Excellent. Thank you so much for having me again. It’s been fun. Book Reviews Here’s the text of this week’s book reviews: Anticipating Disaster by Silvia Violet. Reviewed by Will Nice-guy Oliver enjoys his quiet bookish life – so he’s less than thrilled to be attending a family reunion at a ski resort. He braves the frigid temperatures and disapproving attitudes of his extended family to please his grandmother, who he adores. Irresistibly sexy bisexual outdoorsman David is in town to help his friend mend a broken heart. While his bestie distracts himself with a pair of slope bunnies, David sets his sights on klutzy Oliver, offering to give him private ski lessons. Flirtation leads to friendship and to David accompanying Oliver to some of the planned reunion activities. When certain family members mock Oliver’s nerdish tendencies, David fiercely defends him. Can’t they see how smart and sweet and kind he is? To give Oliver a vacation from his relatives, David takes Oliver to Anticipation, the picture-perfect mountain town that he calls home. The more time that our heroes spend together, the more they think this might just be the real deal. The problem is that neither one of them does casual relationships. David has his life in Anticipation and Oliver has his life back in Florida with his grandmother. A long-distance arrangement doesn’t seem particularly practical and they sadly part ways. Oliver returns to his real life and, after some time apart from David, he realizes (with some help from grandma) that his quiet existence might be more about hiding from life than truly living it. He decides that David is well-worth the risk and heads back to Anticipation to start a new adventurous chapter in his life story. I really enjoyed Anticipating Disaster. The author takes some familiar character types and story tropes and crafts a really compelling story, while at the same time giving the romance her own twist. The set-up might be pure category romance, but let’s be real, this is a Silvia Violet book, so you know that the heat level is going to be cranked up to 11. Oliver has a penchant for lacy undergarments and, over the course of the story, David discovers he likes cute guys with a penchant for lacy undergarments – like, A LOT. Also, in the bedroom, David has a talent for turning some particularly filthy turns-of phrase. So the time our that heroes spend together do not disappoint – these aren’t the kinds of sex scenes you’ll skim over. This book is the first in a series with the quaint town of Anticipation serving as the backdrop for future installments. A few side characters are introduced in Anticipating Disaster and I look forward to the new romances that will unfold in upcoming books. Prince of Killers (Fog City #1) by Layla Reyne. Reviewed by Jeff. Anyone who’s been listening to the show over the past year knows that I’ve fallen hard for romantic suspense, and in particular the stories that Layla Reyne writes. As soon as I offered the chance to read an advanced copy of Prince of Killers I jumped on it and devoured it in just a few days. Not only is the suspense tight but the budding romance had great sizzle. I’ve never read romantic suspense where someone in law enforcement wasn’t at least one, if not both, of the central characters in the love story. In this book, our main character is on the flipside of the law as the leader of a family of assassins. This provided an interesting twist and I loved the ride. The titular prince of killers is Hawes Madigan who has recently come into leading his family’s business because his grandfather is on his deathbed. One evening, just before a job, Hawes gets information that someone inside the organization is looking to take him out and possibly targeting others inside his family. The bombshell is dropped by the mysterious Dante Perry. The news of betrayal from the inside throws Hawes for a loop. He figured some associates might take issue with the new rules he’s put into place, which include no indiscriminate killing, no collateral damage and no unvetted targets. He introduces these rules because of past incidents that haunt him. The introduction of the Madigan family and how they approach their line of work fascinated me as much as the suspense of the internal sabotage and the romance that blooms between Hawes and Dante. Hawes has a twin sister, Helena, and younger brother, Holt who has a wife and baby daughter. Holt’s the tech wizard for the organization and Helena has another career as an attorney helping those who are wrongfully accused. Hawes’s life revolves solely around the family businesses–both the legit refrigeration business and the not-so-legit assassin game. The interplay of the family members as they try to sort out the traitor in their midst while dealing with their dying grandfather is so sharply written. There’s barely time for them to process any one thing that happens and yet the do make time to support and care for one another. Helena even pushes Hawes toward Dante as a potential partner because she wants her brother to have someone. Hawes taking the leap to trust and fall for Dante is one of things I love most about the book as he finds the strength to overcome the fear of putting his family at risk. Even though Holt has made a family for himself and his parents and grandparents had a successful family life, Hawes feels that he needs to be cautious since he’s the family leader now. Dante also goes out of his way to get Hawes and the family to trust him with not only their brother’s heart but aspects of the business as well. Hawes using Dante as his rock as the plot against the family unfolds, exposed his vulnerabilities perfectly. Meanwhile, the bombs that dropped in the final quarter of this book were ones I hadn’t seen coming and got my heart thumping. This is book one of a trilogy and as was the case with Layla’s other books I can’t wait to see where she takes this story. Similar to the Irish and Whiskey and Trouble Brewing trilogies, the Hawes and Dante’s story doesn’t fully wrap up at the end of the book. Of particular note, Prince of Killers ends with a significant cliffhanger. I don’t mind cliffhangers but if you are averse to that kind of ending you might want to wait until book two’s out so you won’t be waiting long to see what happens next. For me Layla’s redefined what a family of assassins looks like with this book. Fog City kicks off with some mind-blowing twists and I can’t wait to see what happens next.

The guys open the show congratulating the winners of the 31st Annual Lambda Literary Awards. They also discuss the podcast’s inclusion in Apple Podcasts’ Pride Month recommendations. Jeff also talks about some of the past week’s happenings with his Codename: Winger series and Will asks him what it was like wrapping up the series. Jeff and Will discuss the new Tales of the City series on Netflix. Will reviews the first two books in Piper Scott & Susi Hawke’s Redneck Unicorn Series. Aidan Wayne is interviewed about their three new books out this year: Hitting The Mark, Play It Again and the forthcoming Stage Presents. They also talk about how they decide what goes into the books, how they got started writing, author influences and what’s coming next. Complete shownotes for episode 192 along with a transcript of the interview are at BigGayFictionPodcast.com. Interview Transcript – Aidan Wayne This transcript was made possible by our community on Patreon. You can get information on how to join them at patreon.com/biggayfictionpodcast. Jeff: Welcome, Aidan, to the podcast. It’s great to have you here. Aidan: Thank you. I’m excited to be here. It’s an interesting experience for me. Never done this before. Jeff: Oh, cool. First podcast. Always fun to have people doing their first podcast with us. Now, you’ve had a busy few months of releases and we wanna talk about the most recent one first, which is “Hitting the Mark.” Tell us a little bit about that book and what inspired it. Aidan: Okay. So “Hitting the Mark,” in a nutshell, it’s about a famous movie star named Marcus Economidis, who used to train in martial arts when he was really young and really shy. And that helped him come out of a shell and then he moves. And being in martial arts actually helps him become more confident and he ends up getting a movie role, and that spirals, and then becomes a famous…10 years later, he’s a famous movie star who is also famous for doing his own stunts. Meanwhile, in Marcus’s hometown essentially, his original school – Choi’s Taekwondo Academy – is now run by Taemin Choi. Taemin was Marcus’s kind of assistant instructor growing up. They’re about 10 years apart. So Marcus was 10, Taemin was, like, in his early 20s and Taemin runs the school now. And Marcus happens to be coming back into town for a shoot and he decides to pay a visit to his old school… kind of nostalgia. He lost contact with Taemin when he moved. And so, he kind of wants to bridge the gap again, just like say hi, see what happens. And then they do meet with Marcus being an adult and, you know, there’s kind of an instant connection. The entire book is essentially about them navigating, first, relearning each other because they knew each other for several years, but it’s been several more years since they actually talked again. So they’re relearning who they are as people, especially Marcus as he’s grown into his own self, and that turns into a romantic relationship. And they’re just figuring out how to be in one considering that, you know, Marcus is this famous person and Taemin is a very busy man who runs his own school and takes care of a lot of things. And just, that’s the story basically. I do a lot of character-based stories where the plot is kind of, like, playing the course as opposed to, like, a person antagonist sort of. So it’s kind of like another one of those things for me. Jeff: Okay. And it ticks so many boxes because there’s friends to lovers, and second chances, and an age gap. Aidan: I tend to, when I write, sometimes I have several different things that I wanna include in various ideas. And so, sometimes when I have, like, the base, I’m just like, “Let’s just squish them all together. Let’s just push them all in one thing and see what happens, and if I can pull it off.” Jeff: And you mentioned when we were emailing to set this interview up that this is one of the books you didn’t have to do a ton of research on because… Aidan: Thank God. Jeff: …movies and martial arts, you had the knowledge there. What aspects of your background, you know, play into that? Aidan: Well, I’ve been involved in martial arts for about 20 years now, primarily Taekwondo and that’s the style that I had Taemin doing because I know the most about Taekwondo in Korean style. I technically have my black belt in two disciplines. One is Taekwondo and the other is a mixed type of martial art that I actually ended up teaching. I used to run a school. So a lot of my experience did transfer over into Taemin’s experiences in running a school and dealing with students and various endeavors that are required. And with movies, I actually majored in media production in college. I was on movie sets a lot both behind the camera and also growing up, I kind of dabbled in acting and I’ve been in front of the camera a lot too including on some big sets. Michigan used to be a pretty big movie hub before the tax thing happened and a lot of places moved away from it. And I was actually on a few different, like, SAG films. So I got to kind of be both in front of the camera and behind the camera. So learning about that aspect was…It was fun to basically shove as much knowledge as I could, especially the martial arts into one book because I have such a love for martial arts that it was like, “Let’s include inside jokes and inside knowledge. And I’ve never had to spell this Korean word in English before. So I have to probably look that up.” And fun fact actually, I’m not gonna spoil anything, but one of the plot points is Taemin working towards the Olympics. He’s qualified for the qualification and that entire piece is actually based on a co-worker of mine I used to work with who did qualify for the Olympic matches. Jeff: Incredible. You did stuff a lot in here in terms of all of your knowledge kinda went into this book. Aidan: Yeah. It was kinda, it was a nice break. I still had to do research obviously because I had to, like, fresh some things and again, like, Korean, making sure that I got that right. But for a lot of it, like, I have another book that I released late last year, “His Two Leading Men,” which takes place in New York with a Broadway star, and I’m like, “I like Broadway, I can just write about plays, that’s fine.” No, I ended up having to map out the entire city to figure out distances to whichever…I’m crazy…whichever restaurant he’d like to go to, which is closer, where is laundromat was. Like, I’m absolutely ridiculous when it comes to stuff like that. Nobody is gonna notice but me. But, like, I care. Jeff: But the native New Yorkers might. And so, it matters. Aidan: Yeah, yeah. Jeff: I have stopped myself of books going, “That’s not right. I know where that is and that doesn’t work that way.” So you do work Michigan into a lot of your books. “Hitting the Mark” is in Michigan. “Play It Again,” which we’ll dive more into in just a second, has a Michigan element simply because you have somebody sending Dovid, the main character, some Faygo Red Pop and some other Michigan treats, some Mackinac fudge included. Obviously, you live in Michigan. Is it something you try to work into the books, a little Michigan angle? Aidan: Kind of. Half of it is ‘write what you know’ because I’m thoroughly uncreative when it comes to that and it’s way easier to just, like, I don’t have to make something up, I don’t have to do more research. I just can set it in Farmington Hills or wherever it is. But sometimes it’s because I have, like, certain places in mind or I want to include certain things like, with Dovid receiving a care package, I wanted to make sure that I had a care package that at least was state-based and was really cool and could include especially a lot of food because a lot of…Dovid being blind, a lot of his things are food-based, it’s part of his schtick. So he reacts to taste and stuff. So knowing that I have my own experience with various Michigan cuisines and snacks and stuff, I could include that pretty easily and know that it would ring true but also be kind of funny. And even if the person didn’t necessarily know what things were, it would still, like, be something that they could get. Jeff: Speaking of “Play it Again,” that I reviewed back in episode 186 and really, really loved it. It was like the book I didn’t know I needed at the time. Aidan: Thank you. Jeff: And it’s quite different from “Hitting the Mark.” What was the inspiration behind this tale of two YouTubers who managed to find love even though they live half a world apart? Aidan: Well, going back to my ‘I have various ideas, but squish them all together into one sometimes.’ I really, really wanted to showcase a blind character. A lot of the characters that I do showcase are disabled in some way or have, you know, different aspects of their life that aren’t typical, you know, part of normative parts of society, etc., etc. And I apologize if my verbiage isn’t the best. And I really want to showcase a blind character, but obviously, I didn’t wanna fetishize that I wanted him to be successful and happy, and not be just blind as his character if that makes sense. And I thought YouTube would be a fun angle for that. And on the other side, I really wanted to focus on, like, a Let’s Player because I thought that it would be fun to try to, like, figure out how to write that because it’s so much narration and video-audio-based. And I like playing and like, “Can I do this? I will see if I can.” So making it a long-distance relationship was also kind of something that sort of happened because long-distance relationships, specifically internet-based ones, are very important to me because I have several relationships that started being internet-only and I consider a lot of these people some of my closest friends and I’ve met many of them in person now. One of my friends, I’ve only ever met them once, and it was in our first meeting ever…we then spent two weeks together, but our first meeting ever was in Narita Airport in Tokyo where we both flew separately and then spent two weeks in Japan together. So, like, yeah, there’s a lot that can come from internet relationships and I really wanted to showcase something like that too. Jeff: And I’d imagine here that the research was more than “Hitting the Mark” because you needed to make sure that Dovid was portrayed in the way that you wanted to where, you know, he wasn’t necessarily defined by the blindness. Aidan: Oh, yeah. I do extensive research whenever I write, especially disabled characters, because, you know, there’s so much misinformation out there and it’s so easy to fall into the trap of what the media has portrayed a person to be like or to do as opposed to actually reading experiences and watching experiences about, you know, real people. I kind of posed this question to myself on Twitter a while back, but it was basically, how does one write about a successful blind YouTuber? Watch a lot of successful blind YouTubers basically. So I watched a lot of, like, “The Tommy Edison Experience” is a man who is blind and he has a lot of Q&As; on YouTube. A lot of his videos are older and he’s an older gentleman. But it was still, you know, very informative. He has, like, an episode about cooking, which Dovid is the chef of his little family where he lives with his sister, Rachel. So it was interesting to, like, make sure that I was, you know, portraying his ability to do that correctly and, like, different tools that he’d use. Molly Burke is also a YouTuber that does makeup and fashion. But how she interacts, you know, with her audience and interacts with herself, and the things that are important to her – her experiences – because she does talk about that as well. It was very important. There’s a Tumblr called “Actually Blind” that did Q&As; and did a lot of commentary on different things and responded to different situations where, you know, there’s one impairment affected daily life that was not considered. And “Actually Blind” was a huge help in doing a lot of research because even when I didn’t actually ask the question myself, sometimes they just talked about things that I hadn’t thought about before. So that was a really good thing to notice. Like for instance, they had a post about the fact that the face touch thing in so many books and so many movies is absolutely ludicrous and no blind person really does that. And because it was made up by a sighted person who thought that it was kind of like romantic and intimate to have the blind person, like, touch the other person’s face to see what they look like and “Actually Blind” was like, “No, no. Uh-uh.” So it was something that I didn’t include then and I might have if I hadn’t read something like that. Jeff: The research is oh, so important. Aidan: Absolutely, absolutely. And I do a lot of sensitivity readers too. I have a short story that is going to be coming out probably in October, because I’m spacing it out a little bit, where one of the main characters is in a wheelchair. So luckily, I’m like, “Hey, sibling, I’m gonna ask you some wheelchair questions.” And know about how my experiences in, you know, living with somebody who uses a mobility aid and all that. So proper portrayal is really important to me. Jeff: And you have still yet another type of story coming out with your upcoming YA novel, “Stage Presents.” And I’m fascinated by this way because you’re taking us to Disney College Program. Do you have experience in that or was that a ton more research? And of course, what is this book about because it sounds just delightful? Aidan: Oh, well, thank you. I hope it is delightful. I hope people enjoy it. And to your question, yes and yes. I did experience, I did do the Disney college program many years ago, but I also did do a lot of research for the story in part because, you know, Disney updates and changes things. So some of the things I had to look up were the current menus and stuff because, again, it’s like a tiny little detail that only I will notice but I cared about. But I also had to make sure that I was getting details right in terms of characters because one of the main characters, Ashlee, with two Es, is a Disney princess literally. I did a lot of research into behind the scenes of that a little bit. I watched a lot of ex-princess interviews and posts about the experience of being a character performer. I didn’t have a lot of experience in that capacity. I knew some people who are friends with characters while I was in the program and I did ask, you know, I did learn about it that way. But princesses, I had to learn a little bit more. And, oh, yeah, what the book is about. Two girls who both get onto the Disney College Program and end up his roommates. One, Dana is a kind of, you know, calm, cool, collected, very down to earth, logical girl who is going into international business, she’s excited about working in a Fortune 500 company. She’s looking forward to living away from home. She’s trans. So, you know, that’s just another aspect of who she is as a person and she’s kind of like not sure about how she’s gonna get along with people. But she kind of has the mindset of ‘judge people before they judge you’ sort of thing because of past experiences. Meanwhile, on the other side, Ashlee, with two Es, loves Disney…I know, it’s a very important detail. She loves Disney, she’s a Disneyphile, she loves all the movies, she loves all the songs. She gets cast as an actual Disney princess. This is her dream come true. She’s been dancing since she was little. So one of her goals is to be a parade performer Disney princess, essentially, and she’s super excited. She’s from good old Southern Georgia and has never really, you know, met somebody who’s not exactly like her and her little clique, you know, popular, excited, happy group. So she doesn’t really know what trans means and she was born around…she knows what the internet is, but still, it’s different from knowing and meeting and, like, actually talking to somebody and interacting. And then so, Ashlee is kind of ignorant and Dana is kind of standoffish, and they hate each other. A good portion of the book is just them hating each other, and eventually, of course, a couple of different things happen and it turns into a begrudging friendship, which turns into actual friendship, which turns into more. And it was, you know, writing the evolution of enemies to lovers, which is something that I hadn’t done before really, and integrating different aspects of their situation and being roommates and living in such close quarters and, like, what constitutes that kind of relationship too, especially while you do not like each other and then as friends, and then, you know, once you’re more intimate as well. So that was, like, a whole encompassing aspect of the story itself. Jeff: And now, it sounds even more delightful than when I read the blurb. Aidan: Okay. Good. I had a lot of fun. I like my stories, which is, you know, a fun thing to be able to say because a lot of them I think, just kind of get defined as ‘fun’. There are obviously elements of angst and stuff and, you know, negativity that happens, but I have fun, you know, writing them. I hope that people have fun reading them. Jeff: What got you into writing and M/M romance in particular? Aidan: Well, I’ve always been a storyteller. My dad also, when we were kids, he would make up bedtime stories. We got read to a lot too, but he would make them up. So I grew up with the elements of imagination as something that you could play with and figuring out different elements of what characters could do. Really, you know, being totally honest, fan fiction. I was really, really interested in “Elfquest” as a kid. It is a fantasy novel by Wendy and Richard Penny. And man, I was an “Elfquest” fan. I read and actually own, I’ve collected almost all of the books and volumes and made up as a tiny little 9-year-old, self-inserts in my head as being an elf with such and such power, and being part of that self-insert stuff. And as I got into more media growing up, I really enjoyed reading and writing fan fiction because it was a way to interact with something that I enjoyed so much past where the media itself went. And sometimes things happen that you didn’t like. So you could make them better by writing it yourself or reading it by other people who did a good job or further exploring the world that had already been created with characters you already liked. And from there, it was kind of like, “Oh, I could do this with my own characters and make whatever I want to happen, happen. What? Oh.” And the kickoff was when I was, I don’t know, like, 15, I participated in my first NaNoWriMo and that was the first, like, write a lot of words and also write them really quickly. So you can’t think too much about what you were doing, you know, “wrong.” I wrote 50,000 words in the 30 days. And man, I still have it and it really portrays what I was into, what I was learning, and what I was experimenting with as a 15-year-old because it is a lot of stuff. And I really enjoyed doing that and I kind of just kept at it. And eventually, I had a friend who I really admired, Mina MacLeod, who was also a writer that I was friends with at the time. And she talked about an anthology and encouraged me to also, you know, submit a story, a piece, and I did. And we both got in and I still have the copy of the book, but we’re both in the anthology, both me and this writer that I really admire. And, like, that was really cool. And from there, I went, “Oh, wait, publishing is possible, that this is a thing that actually can happen to, like, real human people as opposed to just authors who are these untouchable people on pedestals.” So my next book that I wrote was written with publishing in mind. That was “Loud and Clear.” And it was technically my first original, original piece. Speaking of smooshing everything together at once, that book is about a man who is so dyslexic, he is essentially illiterate and a businessman who has a stutter so bad that he is a selective mute, falling in love and entering into a relationship. So you got someone who can’t read and someone who communicates through writing and I was like, “Let’s just make this as complicated for myself as possible. That’s a good idea.” But, you know. Jeff: Yeah. For a first book, you took on a lot there. Aidan: You know, it suffers from an overuse of italics, but it’s still something that I really appreciate that I did as a writer. I really like it. I had a lot of people really like the fact that I, you know, portrayed people that way, and of course, it does focus on non-normative people with disabilities and challenges in, you know, typical normal society. The illiteracy was actually based on a friend of mine who is illiterate. His dyslexia is so bad, he is effectively illiterate. He’s also an engineer. So, you know, it doesn’t stop you. It doesn’t have to stop you as long as you have the right elements and encouragement and resources. And that’s what a lot of people do struggle with. Like, he had to be homeschooled because his school that his parents had put him in originally were like, “We don’t know what to do with this child.” So being homeschooled allowed him to learn and actually grow and actually learn. Jeff: I have a suspicion a little bit where this next question at least will go a little bit given the “Elfquest” things, but what authors and genres do you tend to read? Aidan: Basically everything, but gore horror to be honest. I really enjoy contemporary pieces. I like fantasy. I really like nonfiction. I love learning stuff. This is probably not a surprise considering my need for research, my favorite author in the entire world is Terry Pratchett. That probably will never change. The man was absolutely brilliant and his ability to tell stories, and well-rounded characters, and development in plot, and his care in structure, and how he’s able to tie things up neatly with, you know, no questions except for like, what could happen next? He’s absolutely amazing. I really admire him. If I like a tenth of his ability to just, like, story weave, I’d be content in my ability to create. One of the other authors I really enjoy, he’s a very lesser known author, but Barry Hughart. He wrote “Bridge of Birds.” That is a Chinese fantasy mythology story, which basically happens in a historical China, but is written as if mythology was real. And he’s also, like, a very unknown and should be more known author for what he’s able to do with creativity. Other books that I appreciate, I enjoy a lot of Tamora Pierce’s work, especially the “Keladry” series because I really enjoyed her portrayal of a woman, a girl growing up and wanting to be a knight and fighting and dealing with a lot of the prejudices that come from, you know, girls trying to do anything that boys like to do. So, those pieces and she also is essentially…she’s written as not really interested in amorous connections, so to speak, and Tamora Pierce did end up saying that she did write her as asexual even though she didn’t, like, really know the term at the time. So that was really appreciated. Oh, that dovetailed a lot. M/M romance, yes, okay. There is a lot of het romance out there and that’s fine, you know, it’s got a market for a reason. It can be very well done. Me personally, it’s done by other people well and I gravitated more towards queer characters. M/M romance was easier for me to write because it was easier for me not necessarily to identify with the characters, but write about them in ways I wanted to, you know, with gentler portrayals and different effects. I wouldn’t say that I particularly write, like, alpha man male sort of things because it’s not really something that appeals to me personally as an author or as a person. I like people who are settled into themselves and know who they are and may be confident, maybe inconfident. For instance, in “Play it Again,” Dovid is a very confident individual who knows who he is and is really happy with himself. And Sam is much shyer and he’s wracked with anxiety all the time. But they’re both human. I like portraying clear people as human and I think that’s why I gravitated towards it first. I’m not super sure why I write M/M mostly. It’s just because it is a little bit easier for me to…I guess, it does come back to identification. I’ve written one…I have one published female-centric romance, which I do really like. It’s called “Making Love,” which I think is one of my favorite titles ever. It’s about a succubus and cupid falling in love. I was very proud of that, and it’s adorable. It’s very cute, it’s very loving, it’s really soft. And Carla, the cupid is just, like, made of cotton candy and love, sweet, and is really happy and bubbly. And Leeta, the succubus, is kind of cool and had reason to put up a lot of walls. Carla melts her heart and it’s so cute. It’s very silly, a lot of my reviews were like, “It’s cute, but cheesy.” And I’m like, “Yes, that was exactly what I was doing.” It’s called “Making Love,” what were you expecting? And then, same thing with “Stage Presents,” both the main characters are female. Dana is trans. I really enjoy portraying again, like, different aspects and different facets of queer people being human. They make coffee and they’re grumpy, and they might have disabilities or other challenges in life. And they also like stuff and are bad at things, and aren’t just, like, one cutout of a representation that, you know, people have one idea about. I like character-driven stories. Queer people deserve happy endings too. That’s the other thing. Jeff: Yeah. Absolutely on that one for sure. So we know “Stage Presents” is coming up here soon. What else is coming for you this year? Aidan: Well, I’ve mentioned it briefly, I have a short story that I had been kind of working on off and on. I was calling it “Baker Story” on Twitter and I did name it “Not So Cookie-Cutter” or something terrible like that because every single one of my titles…you may or may not know this, every single one of my titles are puns or play on words because I’m ridiculous and I love it. Yeah. So the book, “Bakery Story,” is called “Not So Cookie-Cutter.” I’m probably going to release it around October. It’s about two POC characters, which I did get sensitivity readers for because that was important to me. Jerel who is a baker at like, a cafe/coffee shop and Rafi who is a client who falls in love with Jerel’s pumpkin cheesecake essentially, and romance. They’re cute, it’s cute. One of my favorite things about the story is Rafi uses a wheelchair and Jerel is so smitten by Rafi that he doesn’t notice for, like, two chapters because Rafi is sitting down when he’s, you know, at the cafe and Jerel is just like, “Oh, my gosh, this handsome, amazing human being who is talking to me, like, he thinks I’m cute, okay.” And then, like, when Rafi actually, like, moves in front of him and he rolls away, Jerel’s like, “Oh, my God. I’m an idiot. This is fine. I’m an idiot.” So… Jeff: Nice. That will be one to look forward to this fall. Aidan: Yeah. I think, you know, it’s cute, cute and dumb. That’s kind of my mode. Jeff: What’s the best way for everyone to keep up with you online? Aidan: Twitter is mostly what I use, @aidanwayne is my Twitter handle, user name thing, and that’s primarily where I am. I have a website too and if you go to my website, there’s an option to sign up for my mailing list and mailing list is kind of how I send out information about releases to people. But I don’t like inundate people with mail. It’s just like, “I have a release, yay. Here it is, yay.” Jeff: Cool. We will link to those as well as all of the great stuff that we’ve talked about in this interview. Aidan: Cool. Jeff: Aidan, thank you so much for hanging out with us. It has just been a delight talking to you. Aidan: Yeah. Absolutely. Thank you for having me. Again, I’m ridiculous. So I appreciate being able to be ridiculous on a podcast. That’s cool. And, yeah, this was a lot of fun. Thank you so much. Book Reviews Here’s the text of this week’s book reviews: Seriously Horny (Redneck Unicorns #1) by Piper Scott & Susi Hawke and Dangerously Horny (Redneck Unicorns #2) by Piper Scott & Susi Hawke. Reviewed by Will.Seriously Horny Unicorn shifter Isaiah is pure white trash. How do we know? We’re introduced to him as he’s settling in for the evening, in his trailer with a bottle of his pappy’s moonshine – but he’s also an expert tracker. He’s tasked with finding a missing teenage dragon shifter. He runs into the kid’s college age brother, Eric, an irresistible dragon omega. They go to search together for Eric’s brother. One night, in a motel room they give in to their desire, and trust me, the scene lives up to the book’s title. Eric has the power of second sight, kind of like Faye Dunaway in Eyes of Laura Mars, and he ‘sees’ where his brother lays injured. Isaiah and Eric find him and bring him back to the dragon compound where he can heal from his injuries. Eric is with child after his night with Isaiah, and months later we find our heroes happily in love with the beginnings of a new family. In Dangerously Horny, Unicorn shifter Bo Luke finally gets up the nerve to tell Mitch just how he feels. But broken-down dragon is a less than ideal match for someone so young. The rejection hits Bo Luke hard and he runs off, straight into the clutches of a crazed woman who has uncovered the secret of the unicorn clan, and desperately wants to touch Bo Luke’s horn – and yes, that euphemism means exactly what you think it means. Mitch and some of his dragon buddies are sent to find Bo Luke. They rescue him and subdue his kidnapper. Because this is a paranormal shifter Mpreg romance, omega Bo Luke finds himself in an uncomfortable situation, and alpha Mitch is the only one who can scratch his particular itch. They fuck and it’s hot and amazing and (of course) totally magical. Mitch’s misgivings were unfounded, they are now fated mates. While waiting for their child to be born, Bo Luke’s stalker escapes custody and attempts to kidnap her unicorn obsession once more. In an action sequence that I thought was particularly bad-ass, Mitch and the entire dragon clan literally reign down fire upon her, rescuing Bo Luke once again. The story wraps up with a hilarious scene in which our heroes experience a very memorable wedding/birthday. The covers of these books tell you everything you need to know. The hot cover models clue you into the sexy times ahead, while the titles, which are decidedly camp, tell you that these romances also about the humor – humor with heart. I loved both of these stories and think they’re a fantastic way to kick off the new series. While ‘Redneck Unicorns’ is a continuation of the author’s previous dragon series, they stand alone just fine.

Happy Pride Month! Jeff discusses the awesome Pride Month video from the NHL. He also talks about all the things that happened during release week for Netminder. Members of the Queer Sacramento Authors Collective had a reading this past week at the Lavender Library and will be reading again this coming week at Time Tested Books. The live streams are available on the podcast’s Facebook page. We talk about the Coastal Magic Convention 2020 lineup of m/m romance featured authors. We review the Elton John biopic Rocketman. Jeff reviews Max Walker’s A Lover’s Game. Will recommends books for Pride month: Pride: The Story of Harvey Milk and the Rainbow Flag by Rob Sanders, Stonewall: A Building. An Uprising. A Revolution by Rob Sanders, The Stonewall Riots: Coming Out in the Streets by Gayle E. Pitman, Stonewall: The Definitive Story of the LGBTQ Rights Uprising That Changed America by Martin Duberman and The Stonewall Reader curated by The New York Public Library. Jeff interviews C.B. Lee about the latest book in her Sidekick Squad series, Not Your Backup. We also discuss the origin of the Sidekick Squad, what C.B. hears from readers and what’s coming up next. Complete shownotes for episode 191 along with a transcript of the interview are at BigGayFictionPodcast.com. Interview Transcript – C.B. Lee This transcript was made possible by our community on Patreon. You can get information on how to join them at patreon.com/biggayfictionpodcast. Jeff: Welcome C.B. to the podcast. It’s great to have you here. C.B.: Hello, thanks for having me. I’m so excited to be here. Jeff: Yeah, it’s very exciting. We got to see you last year at the LA Times Festival of Books for a little, teeny, tiny interview. But we’re thrilled to have you back as we start to talk about “Not Your Backup” which will come out on June 4th, just the day after this airs actually. C.B.: Oh my gosh, that will be really exciting. I actually got to touch the advanced copies for the first time last week at YALLWEST, which due to this fun time jumps of podcasting… Jeff: Well, actually a bit about a month ago. C.B.: Right, right. But, yeah, it was really interesting just to, like, hold it for the first time and see it in print. Granted, the advance copies have typos since, you know, I went through and did all the pass through the typos. But it’s fun, it’s fun. It’s great that, you know, it exists, it’s in physical form, hasn’t quite felt real till now, but now it’s a real book or will be very soon, or tomorrow for your listeners and readers. Jeff: There is something about holding that physical copy, even if you see it, you know, even if it’s on your tablet as an ebook. It’s like there’s nothing like that paperback when it gets there. C.B.: Yeah. Jeff: Now, “Not Your Backup” is book 3 in the “Sidekick Squad Series.” And, for those who haven’t experienced this series or heard of it, tell us what this series is all about. C.B.: Sure, it is about a group of queer teens that take on a corrupt government superhero agency. And they live in this sort of post-dystopian world where superheroes are kind of treated like celebrities. And there’s, you know, shadowy government organizations and mysterious heroes, league of heroes, that kind of dictates who gets to be a hero and who gets to be a villain. And our protagonists all kind of uncover this huge conspiracy, and then they work together to build a resistance and take it down. Jeff: It’s quite the world that you’ve built here. I mean, you hit so many things that are dystopian, U.S. future, superheroes, villains. What was your inspiration for all of this? C.B.: So I’ve always been fascinated by kind of the, like, post-apocalyptic or dystopian worlds. But a lot of the media that I’ve read mostly focuses on kind of the…when you’re in the middle of the disaster, when you’re in the middle of the catastrophe, when everything is going wrong, how are people struggling to survive. So I really wanted to see a world that was…you know, so this is more of like a solarpunk take where the world has started to move forward, where it’s 100 years after all of these disasters have happened – kind of the impetus for the superpowers. And my book is a really extremely intense solar flare that catalyzes latent gene in people. And then after the flare, which knocks out a bunch of nuclear power plants, also, it starts kind of a chain reaction of a bunch of environmental disasters. So 100 years later the governments of the world have kind of shifted and changed, there’s been wars, there’s been fights over resources, so the United States is now part of the North American collective, which is the entire continent of North America, which is now the habitable places. There’s, you know, 24 regions, which is, you know, kind of what’s left of the states. So there’s different areas all across North America, which are now the regions in which people live and, you know, continue to move forward with, like, their amazing technology, and hover tech, and all this amazing, clean technology. But, at the same time, you have all of these like high-tech cities, but outside of those regions, everything else is like the unmaintained lands. So, you know, the government is claiming there’s radiation danger and don’t venture out, but, of course, our heroes are like, you know, what the government tells us isn’t necessarily true. So a lot of…actually, the fun of writing “Not Your Backup” is one of my working titles was “Not Your Road Trip,” because there’s a lot of road tripping in this book. Jeff: Yeah, I noticed. There’s a bit of a road trip in the sneak peek that I got to read too, that they’re out on this road trip, essentially on a mission. C.B.: Right, right. Yeah, there’s the heist in the beginning of the very first chapter. But, yeah, there’s a lot of fun. We get to see a little bit more of the country outside of the cities in this book, so that’s exciting. Jeff: Now, each of the books deals with one of the main heroes, if you will, or the sidekicks, if you will, given the titles of the book, but they’re really the heroes. In “Not Your Backup”, we focus on Emma, who is really the only one of them without the powers. What’s happening to our heroes this time out? C.B.: So at the end of “Not Your Villain,” we have destroyed the registry, which…the big name of everyone who’s ever registered with powers that Captain Orion was planning to use to kidnap people and use for experiments. At that point, our heroes have been looking for the resistance the whole time. And they find a mysterious group that’s been leaving messages on encrypted channels. But then, at the end of the book, they realize that this is actually like a group of nerds that have been joining together to watch movies like “Star Wars,” and “Harry Potter,” and stuff. So they realize that they need to start the resistance. So that’s where we are at the beginning of “Not Your Backup,” where Emma and Bells are back in Nevada, and they are kind of in the midst of this fledgling resistance group – meanwhile, Jess and Abby are at the villain’s guild hideout in the Rockies and they’re trying to corral all the other meta-humans into taking action. So, the beginning of the book, you know, where kind of everyone has different goals, but then they all come together. It’s more about like building the resistance and finding… For Emma, it’s her journey in finding who she is. And, really, she’s a very natural leader, she loves coming up with plans, and she’s definitely a Gryffindor. She’s the first to jump in and try to take action. Her default is, like, fight me. But she also is, as you mentioned, she doesn’t have powers, and so when she’s trying to take a more active role in the resistance, she kind of butts heads with a few of the other members as they have different ideas about who is and who isn’t part of the resistance. Jeff: She just needs to remind them that Batman didn’t have powers either. He just had a really good utility belt and brains. So she could definitely fill that role. What’s been the driving force behind deciding the type of character that you have at the forefront of each book? Because the three books have very different, distinct character types and personalities, and just everything about them is just…they’re just very different from each other. C.B.: So, from the beginning, I wanted to tell this story about, you know, this fun adventure story with queer protagonists. So each book would center on another one of them in the main four. So there’s…and then after “Not Your Backup”, there’s one more book which will be Abby’s story, and so she will round out the quartet. But each of their…you know, they have very different personalities, but it’s been interesting writing their stories because each of them are on their own journey in what makes them a hero and finding how do they define success, and how do other people see them, and how do they see themselves. So, for each story, because we’re moving forward in time, as we get to see who is really, you know… It’s been interesting, because all four books will fit together as a series, but in each book, everyone gets to have their own journey. Jeff: Which I really like because we’ve been introduced to all of them all the way back, you know, back in the first book, but then they get to their own story, which could essentially be read as a stand-alone, if you wanted to, I guess, although reading all of them together is much better. What was the bigger challenge to come up with the trajectory of these four diverse characters or to build this alternate universe of the U.S., or were they kind of equal challenges? C.B.: I feel like the challenge for me is I’m not like a great outliner or I haven’t ever really been a planner. So I’ve always been more of the pantser in the writing style. So when writing a series, when I wrote “Not Your Sidekick,” I didn’t know, up until I think I was about 50,000 words in when I realized that I could not basically solve the problem in that one book, you know, because when I pitched it, it was one book. And then I was like, “Well, I really love all of these characters.” There’s a huge…there’s a bigger story here that I’ve introduced, and I will need more than one book to solve it. And so, from the get-go, I knew the next story after Jess would be Bells because you get into, like, the backstory of the meta-human training and the heroes, league of heroes. And so, I think, overall, just planning a series is really challenging. Some people are great at it, where, you know, they have very detailed outlines, they know, from the very beginning to the very end, what the key points are going to be. And so, as I was writing book 1, I kind of had a panic attack and I was like, “Oh, no, I have to figure out what’s going to happen in each of the books.” And then as I restructured things and then writing book 2 and then 3, it’s kind of come to a point where I’m working on book 4 and now, like, everything that I… One of the reasons why it took me a longer time between book… So “Not Your Villain” came in 2017 and “Not Your Backup” is coming out in 2019. So I didn’t have a book come out last year because I was still working on crafting the storyline because whatever I did or didn’t do in book 3 would determine what would happen in book 4. So everything had to fall into place, and I had to like figure out a lot of stuff. So it was challenging, but I think, you know, it’s still challenging, but that’s part of the joy of writing is to figure out how to tell the story you want to tell. Jeff: If you do a series again, do you think you’ll try to do outlines more in the upfront or now that you’ve had this experience, do you kind of know how to do it and keep your pantser ways going on? C.B.: I don’t know if I’ll ever… Like, I feel like with each book, I’m like, “Oh, do I know how to write a novel now?” But like every book is its own challenge. I do have a better sense of like, okay, you know, how do I plot as a pantser? And then plotting for pantsers, and like learning how to like… For me, I just tend to think of an outline like a road map where I have these destinations I wanna hit, but I’m not committed to – I don’t have to see everything and if I go off track or take a different route, that’s okay as well. So as long as I kind of get the same…like, it’s all in the journey of how I get there, and then the destinations that I pick along the way, if I get to them or not, that’s cool. I kind of have these benchmarks that I want to reach. But I really like thinking of the framework in which I think about my books as a roadmap. So I’ll try to plan out, you know, all the cities I want to visit, but I’m open to discovering places along the way and kind of building up on that. Jeff: How does the pantser sort of method work while you’re world building? Or do you try to, at least, before you start writing, “No. This is my world. This is what’s happened. This is what the U.S. looks like now, and how all that works?” Or does that come organically as you go as well? C.B.: I actually thought like, really early on established the world and what it looked like. I drew a map of which countries were left and which, how, who, what alliances were made in probably much more detail than you’ll ever see in the books because basically I plotted out what happened in that World War III, and what areas were no longer habitable, and all of these things, and all the different lines of, like… I probably spent way too much time figuring out the socio-economic holes, ramifications of which country is now aligned with what country and which countries refuse to join a union or…and they’re all new countries. So there is this whole political backstory of, like, which country fought….you know, which alliance was at war, which alliance and what’s still happening overseas. Some of which you’ll see, but it is the world itself. I’ve always enjoyed world building, and I think it’s really fun to come up with the…I think once I wrote book one where I established, like, how do the powers work. Every power level is different. For example, like the A class, B class, or C class, depending on how…basically, I wanted all the meta-humans in my world to…their powers basically are dependent on…like, they have a limited number of time per day that they can use their powers. So once they’ve used it, then they can’t use it for the next 24-hour period. So it’s a different sort of look at superpowers and abilities because you have to be more mindful about how you use your powers. And so that was an element that I established early on, but overall, I think for me, world building, there are some details I discovered along the way, but I pretty much plotted the world building which is a funny like…and it’s interesting to think about, even though I do consider myself a pantser, how much of this series I did very much envision out from an early stage. So like some of the confrontations and the fight scenes, and the stuff that… I’ve been planning one particular scene in book 3 since book 1, and I didn’t get to do it until… And, so that was like a fun way to be like, “Oh, yes, I’m finally going to like write the scene that I’ve been waiting for.” But I’d had a lot of these moments in my head, and just planning it out and getting the opportunity to like, “Okay, yes. Now, I’m getting to that chapter. I’m getting to the point in the whole series where we’re getting…you know, it’s coming full circle.” So that’s very satisfying. Jeff: It sounds like you’d have a lot of bonus material too if you ever wanted to release it, if all the stuff that you’ve got of the world itself, and the disaster, and how it’s split up. C.B.: Yeah, I mean, potentially, I have a whole timeline that I could release. And then I did these fun… For “Not Your Villain,” I did all the deleted scenes, well, deleted as far as they were cut for length. But I still consider it part of the story, the cannon. So those are an extra that are available on my website. I’ll probably do something similar for Backup, but I’m not at that stage yet. Jeff: Right. It’s good to know about the Villain extras. I’ll be going to check those out. C.B.: Yeah, yeah, they’re fun. They’re all in one PDF. And my book designer, C.B. Macera, was amazing. And she formatted them the same way as the book because we have a lot of extra art as well because she does these amazing, like, chapter headers for each chapter. She’s so talented and amazing designing the covers and the interior of the book, really, you know, capture that feel. And so, “Not Your Villain” actually, in the edits, went from…yeah, it was cut a lot. So, you know, it’s really sad as a writer to kind of see these scenes go, but, you know, as far as, yes, and my editors are great about, like, “This scene is great. But, you know, it kind of slows down the pacing,” or like, “This scene takes us in a different tone or direction, and, like, while they’re great, they don’t fit in the story at that moment and kind of take us away from the main action.” So I understand why they had to go. And, yes, the story is stronger overall, but I like them as an extra. Jeff: Yeah, we’ve all gotten used to those on DVDs over time, so there’s really no reason books can’t have them too. C.B.: Yeah, yeah, it’s a fun extra to have the deleted scenes. Jeff: So you mentioned one more book in the series, the fourth one, is that gonna be it for these heroes? C.B.: Yeah, I can’t say for sure that the door is completely closed. But for this arc, this storyline, that will be the series. It will be completed with Abby’s book. Jeff: We could treat it like the Marvel Universe. Now, if phase 1 is over, and there could be a phase 2 eventually, once you figure out what that is. What got you started in writing? C.B.: I love telling stories. And think I was very young when I tried, like, writing a story for myself. I had an old notebook that I would scribble this adventure story in when I was in sixth grade. And then I’d kind of start and then every recess, I’d pick it up or I’d work on it when I was supposed to be doing homework or stuff in class. And so I’ve always wanted to tell stories. I didn’t really think of it seriously as a career. And then, after college, I went to school for science. And so I was going to get a PhD and do all this stuff, and I, you know, ended up going a different route. And really writing has been a journey where it kind of comes…it ties back to, and I guess like the “Sidekick Squad Series” and the titles were all, you know, the titles are all about, like, hey, I’m not who you think I am, I’m not the person that you’re claiming that I should be or expect me to be. It comes back to where, as a queer woman of color, I didn’t really see a lot of myself in books growing up. And so what I really hoped to write was, like especially when I was writing Sidekick for the first time, I wanted to write a book for my 16-year-old self. So this is the book that I wanted to read. And I wanted it to exist. And so writing…and then I also just like telling stories. So I wanted the story to be fun, I wanted them to be happy and have, you know, there’s drama in them. But overall, I wanted to see kids like myself, and kids who looked like me, and other kids, that reflect the world that we live in because trans kids exist, asexual kids exist, mentally ill kids exist. And there aren’t enough stories where they get to be part of something that’s a superhero adventure, or something fun and fantastic like this. And so I wish that I hope…and I think there are definitely now, in the past, you know, 5, 10 years, there’ve been a lot more stories, and I think that’s great. So I’m just really excited that now people are writing more and more and reading more and more, and there’s a lot of great books to come. Jeff: And one of the things to not…I don’t want to knock the coming out story because those are very important and very needed. But in these books, that’s not really part of it. I mean, this is a much bigger adventure these teenagers are on that just doesn’t revolve around their sexuality so much, that just, there’s so much more going on, which I think is awesome and gives everybody something different to read. C.B.: Yeah, I love that…like, I want us to have the breadth of different types of genres and stories that there are for, like, able-bodied heterosexual people. Like, I want there to be so many stories to choose from. And so, you know…and I really love…I think there’s a lot of power in having joyful stories as well and stories where, yes, sexuality is a part of it, but, you know, who I am is not just my sexuality. Like, every person is multitudes where who you are is made up of so many things like your passions, your dreams, your hopes, your hobbies, your friends. Who you are as a person isn’t just one thing, and we’re all…I love being able to explore that and getting to see… I want people to see that people in the LGBTQ community are like fully nuanced people that get to be complicated and have flaws and go on adventures, or fall in love, or discover more about themselves in the way that all straight people can. Jeff: Well said. I like that for sure. Who were some of your author influences as you got started on your writing journey? C.B.: So I really love the “Harry Potter” series growing up. That’s a huge influence for me. That was one of the first ways I started writing was “Harry Potter” fan fiction because I loved that world so much. And just a lot of…I read so much fantasy like Ursula Le Guin, Diane Duane, Eoin Colfer, like tons of fantasy, Jane Yolen. I started to read a lot more widely. I think when I was a kid, there was a point when I would like go to the YA section and just read like everything in the library. So I would pretty much read everything, but I tended to love fantasy and sci-fi the most. Jeff: Nice, and now you get to write your own. C.B.: Yes. I’m really lucky. Jeff: Is there a genre you want to branch into as you close up the “Sidekick Series?” C.B.: I’m excited to write more fantasy. So the “Sidekick Squad” is more sci-fi, speculative. So I’m working on some fantasy stuff. I’m excited to share it. I have some contemporary stuff. I have a short story coming out next year in the next “All Out” anthology. So that’ll be fun. It’s like a very fluffy high school romance that’s just set in like… The only magic is the friendship and the romance so… Jeff: Aww, sometimes that’s all you need though. C.B.: Yeah, yeah, it’s fun because when I was writing it, I hadn’t written just contemporary in a long time. So that was really fun to try and explore that. Plus, I got to put a lot of puns in there, so it’s all good. Jeff: You seem to travel a lot. I feel like every time I see you on social media, it’s like, “I’m going to this event” or, “Here I am at this event, come see me over here.” What drives you to be out on the road so much? C.B.: So I like the opportunity to see, meet readers. I live in Los Angeles, and I’m really lucky to have the opportunity to go to a lot of events that are fairly local. I also think it’s really important to travel when I have the opportunity to, and I’m lucky that I’ve been able to, and sometimes I will just commit to doing it out of my own pocket because I want to meet readers in those areas. So I love…yeah, I already said it, I love meeting readers. But, especially in places where you don’t get a lot of, you know, LGBTQ resources, or teens don’t necessarily get to see a lot of authors or books with this content come their way and getting to meet teens in, you know, small towns or getting to meet people even though I do a lot of web chats. And so that’s fun chatting with libraries or classrooms through the power of the internet, which is amazing. But, part of being on panels and having these conversations is important to me just because, you know, I get to share with people that might not have heard of my books before or are just learning about it for the first time. And so that’s always a very special moment to me when someone’s like, “Oh my gosh,” like, “This is exactly what I’ve been looking for. I didn’t know it exists, but now I do.” And so that’s very meaningful. And sometimes I get to meet people who have already read the books, and that’s very important to me. And that’s a part of the most rewarding things to me as a writer is knowing that your work has made an impact on someone, whether it’s just making them smile, or, you know, to the depth of having someone like… I’ve cried over several really long emails just because sometimes people are really sweet and talk about like, “Oh, this is my coming out experience”. I want people to see that they’re valid. And so knowing that someone else has read my work and recognize themselves, that’s one of the most rewarding things I’ve ever done. I was in Seattle recently, earlier this year, and one of the events I did was with the Seattle Public Library where we went to the LGBTQ Youth Center. And that was really powerful just to, like, hang out with kids and chat with them and what are they looking forward to as far as like, “Hey, what’s powerful to me, what’s fun to me?” A lot of this is stuff that I totally resonate with when they connect with a character on TV or are upset that, you know, that character got killed off in one season or whatever, because of TV. But, you know, it’s always great to chat with people. Everyone’s always going through something. Jeff: Yeah, for sure. So we’ve hinted a little bit about some stuff that’s coming up for you. You’re working on Sidekick 4, you’ve got a short story coming out next year, anything else we should know about? C.B.: I’m also writing the new “BEN 10” original graphic novels with BOOM! Studios and Cartoon Network. So one is already out. It’s called “The Truth Is Out There.” It’s where “Ben 10” is part of the Cartoon Network show where Ben can turn into 10 different aliens. So it’s fun. It’s a fun, middle-grade romp. So I’m doing a number of those graphic novels with BOOM! So those will be available throughout…I can’t recall the dates off the top of my head, but another one is coming out in July, and then one more in October of this year and then the next year, there will be some more coming as well. Jeff: What’s it like writing for graphic novel because, I mean, that’s a different sort of animal, a novel that, you know, is 60,000 or 70,000 words long? C.B.: It was definitely a new experience. It was a lot of fun trying a different medium. Like, definitely writing a script goes differently as far as…and I catch myself like “Oh, I’m being too descriptive. This is literally…the only person who will see this is the artist.” And it’s also a great collaborative process. So it’s really fun to work with the artists and editors and bring together this story that exists in its own medium. It’s not just me, the writer, but what the artist is bringing, and collaborating with them, and getting to like…you know, I’ll write the dialogue and the action. And then they’ll imagine it in a certain way of like, “Oh, I didn’t think of that,” and that’s really fun. I really like the graphic novel format. I’m hoping to do more. I’m really excited to be working on these projects. And, yeah, hopefully, I’ll be able to share more upcoming projects. Jeff: Pretty cool. And speaking of, what is the best way for people to keep up with you online? C.B.: You can always find me on Twitter and Instagram at, C-B-L-E-E_C-B-L-E-E, because it’s double the trouble. My website is cb-lee.com, and then you can find more links to other ways you can connect with me. Usually Twitter and Instagram, where you can find me the most – that’s where you can connect with me. So in my website, it has like fun stuff. I try to update it with writing resources and my upcoming events. And I also have a newsletter, which will have some special tidbits probably like the deleted scenes, which is the very first place I offered the “Not Your Villain” extra scenes. Jeff: Pretty cool. Well, C.B., thank you so much for hanging out with us. We wish you all the success with “Not Your Backup” when it comes out on June 4th. C.B.: Thank you so much for having me. And I really appreciate it. I’m so excited. And I hope everyone enjoys the book. Book Reviews Here’s the text of this week’s book reviews: A Lover’s Game by Max Walker, narrated by Greg Boudreaux. Reviewed by Jeff I was so happy that this fourth book in Max’s Stonewall Investigations series released in audio just a couple of weeks ago. I’ve been eagerly awaiting the final installment of the series and I was not disappointed. The series has been working up to the final showdown between private investigator Zane Holden and the Unicorn Killer. The Unicorn has loomed large over the series–a serial killer that terrorizes the gay community in NYC. The killer’s gone after partnered gay men and Zane’s husband was aomng the victims. In the first book we find out the Unicorn’s returned and now in the fourth one Zane’s obsessed with bringing the reign of terror to an end. At the same time, Zane is preparing for his wedding to Enzo, the defense attorney who captured his heart in that first book. Unfortunately, Zane is so occupied with the case, he’s missing things, like cake testing and venue selection, and he hasn’t told Enzo that he’s even back on it. Zane thinks he’s protecting Enzo by keeping his activities a secret, but Enzo feels it puts him more in danger not knowing. And boy does everything hurtle towards a massive, satisfying conclusion. Max had me super stressed in this installment. He always does a great job of creating suspense. Here though I suspected everything. Is the Uber driver a killer? Is that bottle of wine spiked with something? What does it mean that someone looked at them on the street? Is the person providing information or misinformation? I suspected everything and also never figured out who the Unicorn was ahead of the reveal. I love that! While Zane and Enzo have been featured in the middle two books of the series, it was great to see them returning to the spotlight. Their dynamic as the move towards their wedding date was wonderful to watch. The quiet, sexy moments they share along with their wedding planning and time they spend with Enzo’s family shows their strong relationship and amazing friends. And, man, are there some super sexy times in this book. There’s always steamy scenes in this series, but these were the best yet. Max contrasts these happy times with how they handle the increasing threats–they want to be strong for each other and also do what’s necessary to keep the other safe. They find it’s hard to maintain the balance and that only increases the tension. I both hated and loved what Max put them through because it was so realistic. Is it weird to say that I liked the terrible choices were made? Despite being great at their jobs, Zane and Enzo sometimes do things that are terrible choices and what makes those so good in the story is that I could see myself doing the same thing. These two are flawed and make bad decisions like anyone can. It makes them human. It makes you scream at them to not do something. It makes you cheer when it all works out too. Kudos to Greg Boudreaux. He’s done a great job with this series overall but I have to shoutout his work voicing the Unicorn. It’s a creep, calm yet evil voice that made me shudder. The spin off for Stonewall Investigations Miami is set up here too. That first book, Bad Idea, just released last week and I can’t wait to pick it up as soon as there’s an audio version.

Jeff Brown – Authority on podcasting with over 265 episodes of his podcast Read to Lead, discusses how he began the pursuit of his calling to empower people to take the leap of faith away from traditional employment. Jeff Brown is also an author, speaker, course creator for podcasting, digital conference creator, and coach for podcasters to launch, grow, and monetize their shows. Learn strategies for making time for self-care and self-expansion, how to overcome barriers that could be blocking you from realizing your blessings, and which books that this reader leader recommends.   Episode Highlights: How does Jeff Brown define having a calling? How did Jeff Brown began his calling journey? What is Jeff Brown’s background leading up to where he is now? How was Jeff Brown able to double his “side hustle” income in the first 30 days after being let go? What was the moment when Jeff decided to work for himself? Jeff explains the importance of maintaining valuable equity with your employer. What were some difficult opportunities for character-building for Jeff? What are the natural next steps forward for what Jeff is called to do? What was the barrier to Jeff originally asking for help sooner? What was involved in building his Boss-Free Virtual Summit? Jeff discusses his industry-leading Digital Course on Successful Podcast interviewing.   What is Jeff’s Daily Success Routine that helps him perform at his highest level? Out of over 300 Books Jeff has reviewed and featured on his Podcast “Read To Lead” what are the top recommended reads? Why is it mission-critical for men to pursue their calling? What are the three non-negotiable pieces of wisdom that Jeff Brown would pass on to future generations?   Key Points & Quotables: There is an opportunity cost of not focusing on where you are most needed when you don’t delegate tasks to others. Jeff Brown recommends creating a morning routine of rituals with each one written down in a planner. “Going forward, I see myself continuing to be called to help more people to realize that their calling is something other than traditional employment.” – Jeff Brown   Resources Mentioned: www.bossfreesummit.com Readtoleadpodcast.com Jeff Brown: Facebook Twitter Instagram heedyourcalling.com

Jeff discusses a deleted scene he’s offering this week from his upcoming book Netminder (Codename: Winger #4). He also recommends The Queer Creative Podcast. Will and Jeff discuss the second season of Netflix’s She-Ra and the Princesses of Power as well as Pose, which has just arrived on Netflix ahead of the new season coming to FX in June. Jeff reviews Queer as a Five Dollar Bill by Lee Wind. Gail Carriger talks to Jeff about her new novel, The Fifth Gender and some of the interesting stories about its creation. They also talk about how Gail went from archeology to writing romance, her process for world building and her travel podcast called The 20 Minute Delay. Complete shownotes for episode 189 along with a transcript of the interview are at BigGayFictionPodcast.com. This interview transcript is sponsored by Dreamspinner PressDreamspinner Press is proud to publish Hank Edwards and Deanna Wadsworth’s new book Murder Most Lovely. Check it out, and all the new mystery and suspense titles from your favorite authors like Amy Lane, KC Wells, Tara Lain, and Rhys Ford, just to name a few, and find a new favorite author while you’re at it. Go to dreamspinnerpress.com for everything you want in gay romance. Jeff: Welcome, Gail, to the podcast. Gail: Hello. Thank you for having me. I’m super excited to be here. Jeff: I’m so glad we finally got you on the show because I’ve been, you know, reading since back with “The Sumage Solution” and it’s like, “We gotta get Gail on. We need to get Gail on.” Gail: I am delighted. I am a devoted listener and so I’m quite honored to finally get to be here. It’s great. Jeff: And you’ve got a book coming out or you’ve just had a book come out actually, “The 5th Gender” just released. Gail: I did. Yes, “The 5th Gender,” it’s my like crazy, ridiculous, silly, happy yet cozy murder mystery on a space station with an alien with five genders and tentacles and purple. Jeff: You don’t often get cozy mystery space station together in one package. Gail: It is…it’s great. It was totally one of those spontaneous, I had like a strange thought/dream/idea to do this. And a bunch of us were joking on Twitter about the craziest mashups of genres we could come up with and somebody was like, “Barbarian noir,” and so on and so forth. And I was like, “Well, I wanna do space station, cozy mystery.” And then I started thinking about it and then it happened. Then I was like, “Oh, okay, I’ll write it, I’ll write it.” I was supposed to be writing something else, of course. But sometimes I succumb to the lure of the ooh, shiny. Jeff: And it was a purple shiny too. So how could you resist that? Gail: I could not. And he’s adorable, the alien character. And I, you know, I have a background as an anthropologist. I have an archaeology…couple of archaeology degrees. And so I just love the way if you’re doing an alien character, you can comment on human social structures and culture and interactions. And so I might’ve had a little too much fun with that. Jeff: Well I was actually gonna get into that. I’ll hold that. Because we should at least tell folks, because I want to talk a little bit more about the origin story on this because you wrote about it. So just like, “I had this idea in the middle of the night, and then I tweeted it, and then it was a story,” which I love, but then there’s the fact that you went away to a retreat and worked on it and had to talk to other people about it while you were writing it. Gail: Yes. So for those…I should preface this by saying that for those who don’t know, I have two names I write under. So I write under Gail Carriger and I write under G. L. Carriger and the G. L. stuff has a much higher heat level. So it’s super sexy. And this book, “The 5th Gender” is a G. L. book. So warning for anybody who doesn’t like nooky because one of the things I realized through the course of that particular writing retreat was that if you’re writing about a species with five genders, human curiosity wants to follow them into the bedroom to see what it’s like down there. And so I thought about trying to kind of clean it up a little bit and it just…it didn’t work. So I was like, “Okay, we are going into that realm.” So I was supposed to go on this retreat and write something else entirely, and instead I just spent the entire week writing this book. And one of the funniest stories from that was me being like, “Oh shoot, what does alien jizz taste like?” Because we all know, at least we do if we’ve been reading my San Andreas Shifter series that wizard or mage jizz is fizzy and werewolf is spicy. And I was like, “Well, what do aliens taste like?” And this meant that I literally had to go and you’re never…on a retreat, you’re never supposed to disturb the cooks in the kitchen. But I was like, “If there was ever a question for cooks, this is it.” There is a crazy author running into the kitchen in the middle of them making shepherd’s pie and being like, “Oh, you guys, what does alien jizz taste like? Debate.” So we had a long debate about it and we finally decided, and you’ll have to read the book to find out. Jeff: Yeah, I wasn’t gonna ask you to spoil that, but I do have to know what exactly did the cooks make of this question? Gail: The cooks were quite game actually. I think they were pretty charmed because normally like they’re doing their art form and we’re doing our art form and never the twain shall meet until meal times. So it’s really rare for one of the authors to actually want the cooks’ help on something. So I think they were kind of pleased to be asked. Jeff: That’s very cool because some of them might have been like, “I’m sorry, what?” Gail: Oh, they know what I write. We’ve been going for a long time with the same cooks for a while, so. Jeff: So this group knew you so they weren’t necessarily surprised by… Gail: No. Well, it was a little out of the blue. I haven’t been writing the super sexy stuff for very long. Like normally my questions are like, “What’s the most ridiculously named, you know, Victorian dessert you can think of,” kind of thing. But yes, it was a little different from my usual questions. Jeff: And tell us what this book is about, this cozy mystery on a space station. Gail: Well, the tagline is an alien race with no word for murder has a murderer aboard their spaceship. And essentially the galoi are the aliens in question. And they are these purple…they’re these adorable sort of purple tentacled kind of, you know, High Elf, slightly looking alien creatures. And they are super isolationist. And the only thing that humans know about them is occasionally they will kick one of their genders. It’s always as one of the examples of the fourth or fifth genders and they’re kicked off and they’re in exile, and those galoi, which is the name of this alien race, go and live amongst humans. And humans actually adore them because they think they’re like sweet and cute and adorable. And they have no…they’re pure exiles. So they have no national allegiance, they have no planetary allegiance. And so they make really great attaches. They’re kind of really kind of comforting and lots of different alien races like to be around them. So they often become attaches to like ambassadors and stuff. So a lot of space stations….space stations consider it really lucky if they get one of these. And the main character, Tristol, he’s one of these aliens and he has a mad crush on the human security chief/detective that’s onboard the space station named Dre. But he doesn’t really get kind of like human flirtation and courting rituals. So he’s sort of…the book sort of starts with Tristol trying to figure out what cats are and why you would wanna keep them as a pet because he’s been asked by some human friends to cat sit. And then, of course, the cat escapes and hijinks ensue on the space station because what happens when the cat gets into zero gravity. Nobody wants to find that out. Anyway, and then the galoi are like super xenophobic, so they never reach out to humans. And then suddenly a galoi ship approaches his space station, which is crazy in many, many ways because they shouldn’t be approaching a space station that has an exile aboard it and they never talk to humans anyway. And they have this incredibly complicated non-pronoun language that kind of indicates status and has to do with all of these different genders. And so the humans are kind of panicking and freaking out. They don’t want a war. They don’t know what’s going on. And the spaceship basically says, you know, “We have a murdered galoi and we don’t know what to do. We don’t have security, we don’t have murder investigations. We don’t. So we came to you, violent humans, to figure this out for us.” And of course Dre, the human love interest is the detective. So he and Tristol have to team up because he needs Tristol’s help to explain how the galoi work. And so the two of them gonna figure out who done it and that’s basically it in a very large nutshell. Jeff: How did you go about creating the galoi? I mean, five genders, no term for murder. There’s like so many things that kind of click into this. Is there like…? Gail: I just, so like I said, I have an anthropology background. I mean, archaeology is blank, so obviously the biology and skeletal structures and things is what I mostly studied via anthropology, but you get a lot of like gender studies and cultural representations of gender and all that sort of thing as part of an education in the United States if you do an archaeology degree. And so it’s always been super, super fascinating to me. I have a minor in classical mythology with a focus on gender. It’s just something that has interested me. It’s really hard to tease out in the archaeological record. It’s prone to misinterpretation by archaeologists and historians and anthropologists. So there’s a sort of storied history with our own relationship from a scientific perspective with understanding gender. And so I just took a lot of that both kind of my education and, you know, how the world now is changing. I spent far too much time on Tumblr, so I have a lot of like non-binary and gender fluid and gender queer fans. And so I’ve just been kind of reaching out to friends and acquaintances. One of my best friends in the world is a bioethicist and a medical ethicist. And so she deals with training doctors in how to talk to people appropriately about gender. And so I’ve had all this sort of stuff messing about, and I was like, “Well, a way for me to explore this and have this kind of conversation with myself and the world is through an alien lens.” And so I just…I love thought experiments, and I was like, “So what if we have a race with five different genders and how would their language evolve? How would their culture evolve? How would they treat each other?” Like all of these, you know, archaeological things to think or anthropological things to think about. And then how would humans, even future humans, react when encountering that? And so that’s kind of where the conception started. And then I just made them purple because I like purple. Jeff: Why not? I’m a big purple fan too. Was there a lot of research kind of building this? Gail: Yeah. I actually have multiple blog posts that either I’m releasing them right now or I’ve just released them recently, speaking from the past into the future. But I have a bunch of blog posts about like a bunch of the research that I did and like some book recommendations and stuff like that, both from a fictional perspective and a nonfictional perspective and different blogs and stuff like that. But I like that. I like researching a lot. I try not to rabbit hole too much because the point is to write the actual book. So mostly what I did is I did that intensive week where I sort of just vomited forth this whole book. And then I went back and like teased it apart and looked into different…almost as…I almost treated it a little bit as if it were a nonfiction piece to go back and see what sources do I need to look up, what like different pronoun terms might be being used in hundreds of years, you know, by humans. That sort of thing. And it’s…since both the humans involved… I try to be complex in my races, whether they’re werewolves or aliens in that like…and to not either dystopian or utopianise either race, either humans or aliens. So both races still have issues. Both are still dealing with how the cultures have evolved and all of that sort of thing. So I’m not setting the galoi up as like the perfect model of a possible future. They have a different evolution, a different model. And they’re merely a vehicle for which we can examine perhaps some of our own biases and prejudices now. And that’s getting very, very serious because mostly what I want my books to do is make you happy and cheerful and be excited, delighted. And if it makes you think a little, that’s great. But really I just want to make everybody happy and hopefully Tristol will do that because he’s delightful. I love him. Jeff: What kind of, I guess, beta reading did you do to see how your various fans handle the gender discussion? Gail: Well, I have trans and gender queer and gender bending characters already, both in my main universe and in my traditionally-published books and in all of my…like my independent and my self-published works and in my novellas and stuff. Some of the main characters, some of them side characters. And so I know that they’re open to it, and I also know that the one that, you know, for lack of a better term, I have like a queer-centered, progressive kind of comfort food brand or business model or whatever, however you wanna explain it. And so I feel like most of my super fans are gonna be excited because what they want from me is that comfort, is that sort of upbeat, fun, slightly fluffy, slightly thoughtful, but ultimately, you know, everything’s gonna be all right. I’m never gonna depress you. There’s never gonna be like scenes of torture. It’s never gonna be angsty, you know, all of those things. It’s always gonna be delicious, I guess. Jeff: I like that as a term for a book. That’s just really fun. Gail: Yeah. It’s just gonna be tasty. Yeah. So they know that and that’s the part that they trust and generally I feel like they’re pretty open minded about how I’m gonna go there and explore that. I don’t think I would’ve done this book, you know, five or six years ago because I wasn’t sure. I had to kind of test the waters with the San Andreas books and some of the other stuff. But I think they’re pretty open to it. I don’t know. You never know. We’ll see how everybody reacts. Yeah, so I mean, and I have beta readers and some of them have read it. I was more careful with this book in making sure that like I had sensitivity, what I call delicacy readers. So people within kind of the gender nonconforming community, again, for lack of a better term. That was more important to me really. I don’t wanna offend, although, you know, everybody’s opinion is their own and everyone is entitled to it. So I’m sure if you come to any book with the idea of being offended, you’re probably going to be unfortunately. So, but I did put essentially a naked purple dude on the cover as a kind of like, “Be aware, there’s gonna be sex in this book. We’re gonna go there. We’re gonna go far out there.” Jeff: It’s cozy with sex and it’s funny and it’s sci-fi. It’s got a little bit of everything in it. Gail: Exactly. Jeff: Do you think you’ll revisit this later as like as a continuing series? Gail: I’d love to. Actually, I have another murder mystery and like I don’t consider myself like a mystery writer at all, but I have this thing as a writer where I don’t write a book until I’ve had what I call the epiphany, which is I need to actually see a scene with characters in dialogue. And it might not necessarily be the first scene or whatever, but until I see that I have that crystal moment, I don’t feel like I can write the book. So I have a lot of books that I’d like to write, but I’ve never had the epiphany with. So they’re just sort of sitting there. And I’ve had an epiphany for a second book in this series with Dre investigating another murder and Tristol still there and everything. But I don’t know how people will receive this one, so I don’t know if I will write that one, but it’s definitely there percolating already. So it’s a possibility. Jeff: It’s a possibility. Gail: Yeah. And the universe on the whole, because it is a science fiction universe, actually does have another, of all things, young adult series that’s set at it that’s kind of been on the back burner for a really long time which kind of has nothing really to do with this series except that the same conceits in terms of faster than light travel. And human…like colonization and planetary evolution are the same. And there’s like a couple of crossover alien races, but that’s about it. But it is the same sort of basic far future. Jeff: If you’ve got the universe, you might as well keep using it. So you don’t have to just keep reinventing the wheel. Gail: Precisely. Yes. That’s my feeling. Jeff: What do you hope readers take away from this romp? Gail: Well, like usual, I just want them to be like… My favorite thing is somebody writes to me and says, “You either humiliated me because I was laughing loudly on public transport,” and I’m like, “Yes.” “You kept me up all night.” “Yes.” Or, “You just left me with a big smile.” So that’s really what I genuinely want is a big smile on people’s faces. But it would be nice if people who read it thought a little bit about…a bit more about gender and how we intimately link biological sex with gender and that perhaps that’s not necessarily the…I don’t know, ethical thing to do – that perhaps gender is in fact a social construct. Or cultural construct. It’s something that anthropologists just accept. Like if you’re an anthropologist, you just accept that as a fact. Like we know, we have seen all of these different ancient and modern races or cultures with varying different interpretations of genders and it just…I don’t think it would ever occur to an anthropologist to like not be like, “Yes, gender is cultural,” but it seems that in the world today that isn’t an accepted principle. And so I guess, if anything, I want people to kind of get it, to maybe think a little bit about pronoun use and all that sort of stuff, I guess. Jeff: Now, as both Gail and G. L., you run across a lot of genres. You’ve got your urban fantasy, you’ve got some paranormal. Now you’ve got cozy mysteries in space. Comedy definitely cuts across all of them. Is there a genre you like most? Gail: I would say I have wheelhouses more than anything else. So there’s a podcast called “Reading Glasses” that talks about as readers we tend to have wheelhouses and if you read heavily in romance, you define those often as tropes. You know, like, “I like the enemies to lover,” or whatever. But a wheelhouse kind of has other things. So, and I would say that there are definitely wheelhouses I gravitate to. So I always write the heroine’s journey. I never write the hero’s journey regardless… Again, this is the gender thing, right? Regardless of the biological sex or stated gender of my main character, they’re always heroines’ journeys because a heroine’s journey, it doesn’t matter who’s undertaking it. So I would say that is one of my things. I always do ‘found family’, and I realized recently I had this big revelation that one of the reasons I strongly gravitate to reading gay romance in particular is because found family is a really popular trope within gay romance for obvious reasons because if you come to the queer community, it’s usually partly found family that brings you there because real family rejected you, at least often did when I was younger. So yeah, and I just love that as a trope, for lack of a better word. And so I have found family in my books all the time. I tend to have extremely strong female main characters except when I’m writing gay romance, of course. Yeah, and lots of queer. I was thinking recently that a slogan I really embrace would be queer comfort because I feel like that’s kind of in all of my books even the books that have heterosexual main couples. It’s really hard. At this juncture, I guess you could say that I trust my readers enough to relax and just write what moves me. I wouldn’t have written this book if I didn’t think at least some of them would enjoy it. I mean, what a privilege and kind of a blessing and a joy to get to do that. But it has been 10 years. So it did take a while. Jeff: And you mentioned that you’re not known for mystery, certainly. So you’ve taken this turn now to at least explore it once. Are there other things out there like, going after and trying to write a mystery, that are still things you want to do, things you’re looking at towards the future? Gail: Absolutely. There’s always… Like I adore high fantasy. Obviously, I’m really into world building. And so like I have a young adult high fantasy. It’s actually techno fantasy, kind of like the Pern books or “Darkover.” And so, you know, I’d like to do that. There’s a bunch of stuff that I kind of am excited and interested, and I’m a pretty voracious and pretty wide reader. So I think that makes you, generally speaking, a relatively wide writer. I think it’s unlikely I would ever break the trust contract that I have with my reader base and write anything dark. I certainly would never write anything gritty or gruesome. I don’t like to read that, so I’d never write it. And I think I’m out of my dark phase now that I have left high school. I don’t do the really kind of dark or angsty stuff. I was thinking about contemporary recently actually. And I don’t think I could write contemporary. The moment I start to think about writing something that’s just a contemporary romance or like women’s lit or even something, you know, Heaven forfend, like proper lit fic, it immediately just goes fantastical. I can’t, I have to inject. And if I were to describe myself as anything, it is, you know, science fiction and fantasy rooted, I like the world building a lot. And so I think it’s unlikely that I’ll ever write something that doesn’t have at least that as part of the component. Jeff: So how did you go from studying archaeology and getting these degrees to now becoming full-time author, writing all these books? What was that path? Gail: Oh my goodness. So I’ve two master’s degrees and I was working on my PhD and I always thought I would be an academic. I genuinely love archaeology. I’m one of those incredibly lucky people who left one career that she adored for another career that she adored. So, you know, tragedy of choice. And I was about to do my defense and I was about two years out which would have been my thesis years finishing my PhD. And I always wrote. I just grew up on what essentially amounted to kind of like a hippie commune kind of thing, and surrounded by artists. And the only thing I had learned really from that is that artists never make any money. And so being an author was really a bad idea. So I was like, “Okay, I’ll be an academic because, ooh, profitable.” At least it’s quasi reliable, right? But I always wrote, I just had that need. It’s kind of like breathing or something. And I figure if I write, I might as well submit. And so I was submitting, writing and submitting. And then I wrote “Soulless” as kind of a challenge to myself. I’m a bit of a perfectionist. I have a propensity for rewriting things over and over and over a million times and never actually finishing anything. And so “Soulless” was like, “You will take six months, you will write this weird book.” This was during the paranormal romance and urban fantasy bubble of the late ’90s, early 2000s. And I was like, what I really want from…I want a bunch of things, right? I want women to write funny stuff in genre, commercial genre. And that’s pretty rare. Most of the writers I knew who wrote funny stuff were like Terry Pratchett, Christopher Moore, Jasper Fforde, like a bunch of dudes. And I was like, “Where are my ladies writing funny? Where’s my urban fantasy set in a historical time period?” You know, I wanted all of these things and nobody was writing it. And finally I was like, “Well, that means I have to.” Jeff: Take the challenge. Gail: Take the challenge. And I really did write it as a challenge. And “Soulless” is a mashup. It tends to be what I write, obviously. I mean, I’m here talking about, you know, space, cozy mystery romance. So I obviously like mashing up things. And so “Soulless” is steampunk, urban fantasy, comedy of manners, romance. It’s a bunch of these different things. And I was like, no one will buy this because I had been in and out of the publishing industry and submitting short stories and I was like, “This…it doesn’t have a place in the market. There’s no shelf it sits on, like, no one’s gonna buy this. But I wrote it so I might as well send it out.” And I had one of those slush pile telephone calls from New York where they like…within a month somebody wanted to buy my silly little bit of fluff. And I was like, “No, you’re joking.” And so “Soulless” was a slow burn. It hit the market and it was really word of mouth. The librarians and the independent bookstores were like behind me 110%. They just loved this crazy little book. And I think it was mostly the funny, but you know, super strong heroine and, you know, like gruff, overly emotional werewolves and queer characters from the get go. And it just appealed to, you know, a kind of segment of society. So I was right about to do my defense when “Changeless,” my second book, hit the hit The New York Times and that kind of seed changed everything. It changed marketing, it changed how much money New York was willing to offer me and my partner at the time was like, “I make enough money to support us. Why don’t you see if this…why don’t you take a break from academia and see if this writing thing works?” And I did and I haven’t been back. Jeff: Well done. Ten years on. Gail: Yeah, a lot of it’s serendipity. And a lot of it is good friends. And then a lot of it was also like, I am super…I’m an archaeologist. Archaeologists are like the organizers of anthropology departments. You know, we’re logistics, we get large groups of people into foreign lands and then make them shovel dirt around, you know. We feed them and house them and blah, blah, blah. You know, we’re big on spreadsheets and organizing. So I already had that kind of part of my personality that I think not a lot of authors have. And so when I was successful, I was ready to be like, “Okay, let’s figure out how many books I can write in a year. Let’s figure out, you know, like… I like trad, but maybe this independent publishing thing is interesting. Let me go research that and experiment with that. You know, let’s try this thing.” I’ve always been like that. Even with my traditional publishers, like they would be like, “You sell really good in eBooks.” And I was like, “That’s because I have romance readers.” And they were like, “How do you feel about maybe doing this strange BookBub thing?” And I was like, “I think that’s a great idea. Why don’t we do that?” You know, it’s like I am game. So I think that has also helped is I’ve always been willing to take a risk, partly because I have a safety net. It’s like I can always go back to being an archaeologist. That’s fun too. Jeff: What’s your overall process? I mean, it sounded like, if I understood from our “The 5th Gender” discussion, it almost sounded like you did the first draft of that book at the retreat. Gail: Yeah. I work really well, it turns out, in a competitive environment. I didn’t realize, but if…I really am one of those writers who I’m social in terms of I like to sit across from somebody at a cafe and just type and just the act of having another writer or a bunch of writers around me also typing is really helpful to me. And part of it is kind of looking over and being like, “How many words have you done? Oh shoot.” And then just typing some more, you know. But yeah, so I do this one retreat every year and I know I can do 40,000 words at that retreat, which is either one novella or most of one of the G. L. books. So I usually sort of get prepared ahead of time with that preparation is writing the first 10,000 or just get…I’m an outliner, so I’ll get all the outline ready. I’ll get all the world building ready. And once I hit the ground there, I can just turn out a bunch of words and that’s great. I try to do a couple of other kind of long weekend baby retreats. I’d love to find other week-long retreats. But the style that I like is pretty rare. And the style that I like is just a bunch of writers writing and no workshops or critiques or anything. So I do that and then most of the rest of the time I am not somebody who can handle multiple projects. I learned that about myself the hard way. So I have to be working on one book and then close that book out and then move to another one. And so if it’s an independent project, what I’ll often do, so if it’s something that I’m gonna be self-publishing, I’ll often write the whole thing on a retreat or over the course of a couple of months. And then just put it to bed and then focus on incoming copy edits or a proof pass or writing a completely different project, and let it sleep if I can. I find that that marination really helps. And then I’ll go back and do a reread. And I’m a multiple editor. I think a lot of comic writers have to be because I do passes for like different kinds of comedy. So I’ll do like a word play pass and then I’ll do a sort of a slap stick pass. And then I’ll do like rule of three descriptive passes to try and get as much different kinds of humor back into a book as possible. And so, and then I have an alpha reader or two and they read before it goes either into my New York editor or off to my beta readers. And then I actually hire and use a developmental editor for my independent stuff as well probably because that tends to lean more romantic. And when I first started writing it, I didn’t really think of myself as a romance author. So I wanted to make sure that I was getting kind of the beats right for romance. So I have an editor who specializes actually in gay romance, who reads all of my romances and gives me feedback. And then it goes to beta readers for the Parasol-verse in particular because they’re like, they’re 25 books in that universe and there’s lots of crossover characters. So most of my beta readers are actually just super fans who are obsessed with the universe and have written me like either critical letters about mistakes that I made in terms of like getting character names wrong or eye colors or something. And usually I’ll be like, “You, would you be interested in being a beta reader?” Jeff: Right. Put those people to work. Gail: Exactly. I was like, “If you’re going to do this anyway, how would you like to get everything ahead of time?” And I give them lots of extra perks as well, special editions and stuff. Yeah, so it’s quite a process at this point. But my beta readers are killer. I’ve got just a team of four now and they’re really fast and great. I love them. And then I have a couple of awesome copy editors that I use and then a proof. The Parasol-verse gets a woman named Shelley Adina, who’s a fantastic steampunk author in her own right and a regency and who’s really, really good on the Victorian era. So it gets a world – like historical proofing basically. And then I have a formatter. I’m a big fan of finding people who are really good at what they do and hiring them to do it for me. Like I could change my own oil, I’m sure, but I’d really rather find a good mechanic, you know. And that’s how I feel about the book world as well. So I have a fantastic cover art designer I love working with and I just got to put my team in place and then hope that no one gets sick. Jeff: Right. That’s the key. Nobody can get sick. Not right now. Gail: Nobody get sick. Nobody can leave me. Very floored when that happens. Jeff: So you mentioned that you read a pretty broad swath of stuff. What are you reading right now that you’re loving? Gail: So I just did a reread on Amy Lane’s “A Fool and His Manny,” which because it got nominated for the RITA award and it was one of the few that did that was queer. So I had read it before, I just did a reread on that and I still love it. It’s very cute, and I love Amy. Amy’s one of the nicest human beings in the world. So that was really fun to redo. And I’m a huge fan of Mary Calmes. I don’t know how to say her last name. Jeff: You actually got it right. Gail: Did I? Jeff: You did. Gail: Oh, good. Yes. I will read… Pretty much she’s an auto buy for me. I just find…I know that there are tropes in place that…but I just find her stuff really…she’s a comfort read for me and as somebody who writes what I hope is comforting for others, like I’m always hunting for authors that give me that same sensation. One of my like constant of all things, comfort, reread rotation is Alexis Hall’s “For Real,” which is a fantastic BDSM, but it’s just like, I don’t know what, the writing is so good. And I will reread R. Cooper until the cows come home, the “Being(s) in Love Series,” which I really, really adore. So, which is an urban fantasy basically. Jeff: So you’re a podcaster also on top of all this other stuff. Gail: I am. I know. That is like completely not connected to anything, side project. Jeff: Well, I’m looking at you, I’m reading the website, getting to know kind of what I wanna ask about. I’m like, “A podcast? Wow. Okay.” And it’s about travel hacks called “The 20 Minute Delay.” How did this come about? Gail: So one of the things that happened to me in the course of this career is I went from being an archaeologist, I traveled a lot as an archaeologist, to being an author where it turns out I travel like five times as much. When I was booked, where I’m regularly, I was doing two book tours a year at least. And that was not counting all of the conventions and stuff I was doing. And a book tour is like 10 cities in 10 days. I mean, it’s crazy traveling. So I turned into a frequent traveler and I’m an organizer and I like to hack things and figure out the most efficient way to do everything possible. And I realized I was doing that with travel. And there are two things that I can talk…well, there are three things that I could talk about, books that I love, like literally until the cows come home, food that I love to eat, and travel hacks. And then I met my friend Piper. And Piper has a day job that has her traveling 80% of the time. And she has, if possible, more travel hacks than I do. I was basically like, “Piper, let’s do a podcast. It’ll just be like 20 to 30 minutes and we will just get on and we will chat about a place that we’ve been recently, and some like delicate matter of etiquette when traveling, like whether you recline your seat or not and how you deal with that,” or recently we did a really good one actually on rental cars. I don’t rent a car that often, but Piper does all the time. And she had some awesome tips for like how to get the best rental car and, you know, what apps to use and all that sort of stuff. And then we do a little gadget where we’re just like, we test a gadget, like a new neck pillow or something and then we talk about, you know, what is that little gadget thing. And sometimes it’s just like, I like the snacky bags. Like you should always have at least two plastic snacky bags with you because they just always come in useful. So sometimes it’s a gadget like that, but we have a really, really good time. And I’m a voracious podcast listener. Like when we started, I’m a fan of this show. So I figured, generally speaking, you eventually become a podcaster if you are a big fan of listening to them. Jeff: That’s probably true. And I think for any of our listeners who are, you know, thinking about, you know, their trips to GRL come October, start listening to “The 20 Minute Delay” now to get all your travel situation put together. Gail: Because Piper and I are both authors, like we don’t…we try to couch our tips as much as possible in terms of anybody can use it. But we are both women. We are women who travel alone and we are both authors. So we will tackle things like how to travel with a bunch of books, like how to fly with 50 bucks or what have you. And we also talk about like safety when you’re staying in a hotel by yourself and that sort of thing. Jeff: So what’s coming up for you next this year with the writing? We’ve got “The 5th Gender” out, what’s coming next? Gail: Next, I have the final book in my Custard Protocol series coming out, which is “Reticence.” And that’s book four of the Custard Protocol that comes out at the beginning of August. And that’s actually rounding out the series in the Parasol-verse for a little while, my steampunk universe. I’m not ruling out doing another series in that universe, but I think I’m gonna take a little break. And I’m on proposal for a new Young Adult series. So who knows? It’s traditional, so it could take forever, could suddenly happen. You never know. And then in October I have a special collector’s edition coming out from Subterranean Press called “Fan Service,” which is for my super fans, which has my 2 supernatural society novellas bundled together with an exclusive short story that’s a hardcover fit, super fancy addition that there’s only gonna be 526 of those printed. And so that’s my October release. It’s so pretty. They can be very pretty covers, Subterranean. Jeff: That’s cool. And what’s the best way for folks to keep up with you online so they can keep track of all this? Gail: Well, in addition to everything else, so in case anybody’s in any doubt, I kind of have no life. I just did…this is like what I…like, I listen to podcasts, I read, and I play online, and occasionally I write, you know, because that’s my job. So I am on all the things online. I genuinely like social media. I know. I know, it’s crazy, but you can pretty much find me on any platform that you like. If you google Gail Carriger and then the name of the platform, I will probably pop up. And I try to use the platform in the way that it’s best suited. So, you know, there are pretty pictures on Instagram and there are lots of pinned gorgeous dresses on Pinterest and historical dresses and crazy aliens. And then I also have a newsletter. The newsletter is definitely for super fans. So it’s very chatty and it’s full of like sneak peeks as to what I’m actually writing and not talking about online yet. And I do freebies and giveaways and stuff there. Jeff: We’re going to link to all that good stuff in the show notes, of course, so people can find it easily. Gail, thanks so much for hanging out. It has been so much fun. Gail: Oh, it’s been a real pleasure. I can’t say how delighted I am to be on and I can’t wait to listen to this from the other side.

Jeff talks about the upcoming release of Netminder (Codename: Winger #4) and a blog post he’s written that talks about the impact the series has had on one reader. The guys also talk about the FX series Fosse/Verdon. Jeff reviews With A Kick Collection #2 by Clare London with narration by Joel Leslie and The Whispers by Greg Howard with narration by Kivlighan de Montebello. Will reviews American Fairytale by Adriana Herrera. Jeff & Will interview Adriana about the Dreamers series, including the soon to be released American Fairytale. Adriana also discusses the food that goes into her books, writing diverse characters, how her job as a social worker plays into American Fairytale and what’s coming up next in the Dreamer series. Complete shownotes for episode 188 along with a transcript of the interview are at BigGayFictionPodcast.com. Here’s the text of this week’s book reviews: With A Kick Collection #2 by Clare London, narrated by Joel Leslie. Reviewed by Jeff.Back in episode 144 I reviewed the audiobook of the first With A Kick collection. Now with collection two, once again the writing of Clare London combines with the narration of Joel Leslie to make a super awesome experience. We’ve got two stories in this collection–Pluck and Play and Double Scoop. In Pluck and Play delivery person Curtis is saved from a homophobic attack by cowboy/singer Riley. It’s an interesting meet cute since moments after Riley dispatches the attacker, he and Curtis fall into some delightful banter. Once they meet, they continually run into each other. Riley occasionally performs on the sidewalk across the street from the With A Kick ice cream shop, which is where Curtis often makes deliveries and hangs out with his friends who run the shop. The difficulty for Curtis and Riley–and I love how Clare handles this–is that they have to decide if the thing between them is just a one-off bit of fun or something more. Riley’s supposed to go back to the States eventually, plus he’s got issues going on with his family. Meanwhile, Curtis is hesitant to let anyone get close to him again after his last relationship was so disastrous. Clare does a wonderful job of finding the moments of tenderness for Curtis and Riley while also dealing with their troubles. I think I’ve developed a thing recently for the bodyguard trope. Riley has a protector streak that I loved so so much. As soon as he finds out what Curtis’s ex is up to, he wants to put a stop to it. The same can be said to for Curtis because he wants to help Riley deal with his family. It’s so clear these two are meant to be together and once they figure how to get out of their own way–and take care of their pasts–to get their happily ever after to they are golden. With Double Scoop, Clare has written my favorite of the With A Kick stories. This one centers on shop owners Patrick and Lee. As the story opens an explosion rocks the shop, injuring Lee and leaving Patrick in a fit of concern for his friend and their business. These two have had an ongoing business and flirty relationship through the series and now they get their moment in the spotlight. Patrick, as the slightly older one, can’t imagine why the younger Lee would be interested in him. He doesn’t feel particularly accomplished, despite the business, or particularly attractive. Lee, however, knows exactly what he wants and keeps going for it even though Patrick doesn’t make easy for Lee to get and stay close. Clare toys with them and the reader in the most delicious way–bringing them together and then causing a rift. It made for a fun yet tense read going back and forth. Luckily the amazing cast of characters that Claire has developed over the series come together to help get the shop reopen and bring the two men together. Their friends know what’s best for them even if they can’t figure out how to make it work. Both With A Kick collections are great for sexy short romances that have the best happily ever afters. You can’t go wrong picking it up on audio either. Joel Leslie does a tremendous job with a large cast of characters, particularly in Double Scoop since almost everyone who’s appeared in the series shows up here. Joel deserves a special shout out for Riley, who is the only American accent and it’s a southern one too. I enjoyed listening to him go back and forth between Curtis’s British and Riley’s southern. So if you’re looking for some fun reads, that will surely make you want some ice cream this summer, pickup With A Kick Collection #2 by Clare London … and grab the first one too if you haven’t already. The Whispers by Greg Howard. Narrated by Kivlighan de Montebello. Reviewed by Jeff.This was a quite an unexpected middle-grade gem that often surprised me with the depths it explored. I’ll caution as I get into this that the end packs a lot of emotional punch and some readers may want to tread lightly on this young man’s journey because it’s heartbreaking while it does conclude in a very satisfying and fulfilling place. Eleven-year-old Riley is missing his mama. She’s been gone for a few months and Riley doesn’t know why. He’s one of the last to see her and he meets regularly with a police detective to try to fill in pieces of what he knows. However, he gets frustrated with the speed the case is moving. He remembers the story his mama used to tell him about the whispers, little blue fairies who live out in the woods. He can’t help but wonder if the whispers might be the key to getting her back. What I loved so much about this book is how strong Greg made Riley’s narrative, keeping true to how an eleven-year-old might perceive the world. Riley already knows that he’s gay. He refers to that is one of his “conditions” that he has to keep secret, and this is not his only one. He also crushes on Dylan who he refers to as the redneck superhero. Dylan’s in eighth grade and he keeps up his superhero status by actually acknowledging Riley, and occasionally defending him against the school bully. Riley convinces his best friend Gary to go on an adventure in the woods to find The Whispers. Again, this trip reveals so much about Riley as he has to deal with a hobgoblin (or was it), the fact that Dylan may not be a superhero (or maybe he is) and the consequences of saying the wrong thing to your friend all the while trying to do the right thing so The Whispers will help him. One of the extraordinary characters in this book is Tucker the dog. Tucker is Riley’s faithful companion, always at the boy’s side to nudge him in the right direction and keep him safe. The dog has an amazing personality that shines through Riley’s narrative. I don’t think I’ve ever read a dog on a page quite like Tucker and I absolutely loved it. It’s a credit to Greg that he had me so invested in Riley that I didn’t try too hard to piece together what was happening. As the plot hurtled toward its conclusion I was constantly surprised and pivoted between sadness and happiness as the revelations came fast and furious. Kudos to Kivlighan as well for capturing Riley so perfectly. It was a very satisfying audiobook experience. This was my first Greg Howard book and I’ll definitely check out his other titles. I do very much recommend The Whispers if you’re looking for a superb read featuring an eleven-year-old who is going through a lot but comes out stronger and wiser on the other side. American Fairytale by Adriana Herrera. Reviewed by Will.When Camilo, a NYC social worker, goes to an absurdly swanky charity event that his boss can’t attend, he’s intent on enjoying the special evening, which includes chatting up the hottie he meets at the bar. After a few drinks and some suggestively flirty banter, he and Mr. hot stuff find a dark corner and make the night truly memorable. The next morning, Camilo’s boss introduces him to Tom, the millionaire who’ll be financing their agency’s major renovation project. Tom also happens to be Camilo’s hot charity gala hook-up from the night before. Aware how awkward the situation is, Tom agrees to keep things strictly professional from now on, but also asks that Milo be the point man on the project, keeping him up-to-date on the renovations. Their weekly meetings begin to look more and more like dates – a meal at a fancy restaurant, a walk through the botanical gardens. Camilo is no fool, but as he gets to know Tom better – he’s certainly not your average philanthropic millionaire, there is more than meets the eye – the pretense of “keeping things professional” begins to hold less and less appeal. When they can no longer deny the attraction, Tom takes Milo back to his place. The sex is amazing (of course), but the afterglow is short-lived when Tom’s ex drops buy with their daughter. Tom shares custody of Libertad, his daughter, with his former husband. Learning of all of this (which Tom failed to mention up until that point) briefly throws Milo for a loop, but it’s hard to resist the precocious the little girl, and Milo falls even harder for the millionaire and his ready-made family. A situation with Milo’s mom has him taking on more work and financial responsibility and, in addition to that, he’s working overtime as the massive renovation project is wrapping up. He’s stretched almost to the breaking point. When Tom offers to help, the fiercely independent Milo insists he has it all under control. Tom quietly takes care of things. It’s better to ask for forgiveness than permission, right? In this case, no. Camilo is furious. As a reader, it’s hard not to feel frustrated by Milo’s stubborn streak. Your boyfriend is a millionaire for god’s sake! Get over yourself! But it eventually becomes clear that Milo is, of course, right. Tom’s intervention robbed Milo of his own autonomy. It’s Milo’s choice whether or not to ask for help – no one else’s. This is a deal-breaker for Milo and it causes a major rift in their relationship. Tom has to find a way to fix things, by doing the hard work and not using his money to solve their problems. This is a romance, so Tom figures things out, and pulls off a grand gesture that is less grand, and more heartfelt and considerately thoughtful – which is exactly what Milo needed. It all wraps up with swoon-worthy family vacation to the Dominican Republic. This interview transcript is sponsored by Dreamspinner PressDreamspinner Press is proud to publish Hank Edwards and Deanna Wadsworth’s new book Murder Most Lovely. Check it out, and all the new mystery and suspense titles from your favorite authors like Amy Lane, KC Wells, Tara Lain, and Rhys Ford, just to name a few, and find a new favorite author while you’re at it. Go to dreamspinnerpress.com for everything you want in gay romance. Jeff: Welcome, Adriana to the show. Thanks for being with us. Adriana: Thank you for having me. I’ve been looking forward to this for weeks. Jeff: So have we, to be honest, since we’ve read “American Dreamer” that we loved so much. So, a good first question is, what was the inspiration behind the “Dreamer” series? Adriana: So, basically, I think I wanted to write Afro-Latinx characters. I’ve said this in a couple of other conversations I’ve had about the book. It was really a specific time, a couple of years ago, right after the election when there was just a lot of negative conversation around the place of immigrants in the U.S. And I just really felt compelled to write a story that I felt can honor my identity which is Afro-Latinx, and the Afro-Latinx immigrant experience. And I think representation has also been an issue for me, with romance specifically. There are stories of people of color in gay romance, but I felt like they were either really surface characters or there was like a real, like, toil story. You know, the person had to go through every kind of horrific thing. So, I wanted to write something that could be nuanced and also show the joyfulness and the beauty of being a person that’s Afro-Latinx and all the amazing things that we come with. So, that was kind of where I was coming from. And I also really, really wanted a book literally full of…just like the gayest, most black and brown book I could write. Jeff: That should almost be a quote on the cover. Will: That’s funny. Adriana: Yeah. I wanted it to be super gay, super black, super brown. Jeff: So, right before we did this interview, Will raved about “Fairytale.” Tell us, in your own words, what that story is about, and kind of how it falls in the series. Adriana: So, it’s the second book in the “Dreamer” series and it’s set in New York City, which is different from “Dreamer” which is set in Ithaca. And it’s about Camilo Briggs who’s one of the best friends of Nesto from the first book. And he’s a Cuban-Jamaican social worker. And he works in the domestic violence field, which is the same field that I work in. And he meets this, like, very hot stranger at a gala and he turns out to be a big donor for the agency that he works for, that Camilo works for. And Tom is an interesting character because he’s a billionaire, which we love in our romances, but he’s also Dominican and white-passing, which is something that I really wanted to explore in a book. What it means to be Latinx but also kind of have the privilege of presenting as a white person, and what that means, and how hard that is to navigate. So, I guess, it’s about… It’s a fairytale, it’s a modern-day fairytale but it’s also, again, like a different side to the Latinx experience. And it’s sweet and fun, and cute and sexy. Will: Yeah, it definitely is. First, before we get to the next question, I want to commend you on the sort of…what I found really enjoyable about not only “American Dreamer” but “American Fairytale” as well is the group of friends, the sense of found family that comes across really strong in this series. I think it’s exceptionally well done. And especially in that first book because, like, right at the beginning, from the get-go, you introduce this, frankly, a really large cast of characters. And I think, with a lesser author, that could frankly get confusing. I know when I read a book, I get confused easily if there are five, six, seven people, you know, names and personalities all thrown at you at once. But each of your characters, each of the friends in that group are so clearly delineated and…especially in that first book, in the opening scene, you give us the briefest glimpses of who they are, and we understand right away where they kind of fit in the group of friends. And of course, they’re all wonderful, and interesting, and funny. They give each other shit like good friends do. I love this group of guys so much. Adriana: Thank you. I have to admit, they’re not my friends, but those four guys are very inspired on my, like, really core group of friends in my early 20s in the DR…when I was still in Dominican Republic. My core group of friends were mostly gay men because my cousin, who’s like my brother, who’s 14 months older than I, is gay. We kind of just like started hanging out with this group of, like, queer kids in the DR. Which in the ’90s was kind of an interesting crowd to be in just because it wasn’t really okay to be openly gay. And we had so much fun. And we did so much, like, crazy stuff together. And I just kind of really wanted to kind of like write a love letter to those friendships and those years. And a lot of them ended up coming to the States at the same time I did, in my early 20s. So, I think they feel so real because they are, like, real. Jeff: These books are getting so much praise. What do you think is resonating with the readers? Adriana: I think people are more open now, or I think there were always those that were open to reading about those different experiences. But I think there’s a particular appetite now for reading more characters that are bringing with them a different lived experience. And I think that might be part of it, like why people are interested in the story. And I think everybody can connect to a striving story, you know. I think Nesto, and Jude, and Camilo, Patrice, Juan Pablo, all of them, they’re just striving to be who they know they deserve to be – for the lives that they’re working for. And I think everyone can relate to that and that struggle of fighting for what you want. Jeff: Did you also intend to make everybody hungry with “American Dreamer?” Adriana: Yes. Yes. Jeff: Was that part of, like, your side plot? Adriana: Yes. Yes, I did. I wanted because…also that’s the other piece, like Caribbean food is very similar but very different in many ways. And I talk about that a lot in “Dreamer.” And it’s the…I wanted to just show people, like, all the different flavors and how we’re all connected. So, I think it’s something that doesn’t really get talked about as much, the wide variety of our flavors. So, I did intentionally want people to be very interested in Caribbean food. I wanted people to Google Dominican restaurants and it sounds like I succeeded. Jeff: I think you did, yeah. I haven’t gotten into “Fairytale” yet. Is there food there also or do we break away from the food a little bit? Will: A little bit. Jeff: A little bit. Adriana: Yeah, a little bit. It’s not as much food. It’s more of…I feel like “Fairytale” is more about, like, Harlem and The Bronx. I have a lot of places in Harlem and The Bronx because again, there are a lot of romances set in New York City. Not many of them are set in Harlem and The Bronx. So, I wanted to go to the places where…like, the diaspora that I belong to, came to. So, I think that’s more… I’m hoping people Google places to go in The Bronx and Harlem with this one. Will: That is a good goal to have, most definitely. Now, with this group of characters, they come from a lot of different backgrounds, what is your process for basically ensuring accurate representation? Is it all from your own personal experience or something else? Adriana: Yeah. So far in this series…and I’m sure that as I write more, then I’m gonna have to go outside of that, but so far in this series, I’ve really gone with origin stories that I know of or from people that are, like, my friends or things like that, like Camilo’s mom, for example, is a Marielita, which was a specific group of Cuban refugees that came at a specific time to the U.S.. And I kind of touched upon that because that’s a very important influx of immigrants that came at a specific time. And they’re all particular experiences that I have been connected to through my friends or family. But I do think writing diaspora is something that people need to be more thoughtful about. So, I try to think a lot about like when did this person come, how did they come, what was the political situation in the U.S. at that time, how they would’ve been received. Like, with Patrice, you know, he’s Haitian and he’s black. His experience and the way he was received would be different than, for example, Camilo’s mom who came as a Cuban refugee and had protected status as she came in to the U.S. So, it’s very…like, there’s nuances there in the context that really needs to be thought about because it really impacts how the person can integrate into American life. Will: And speaking of writing from experience, you have a job in social work and advocacy, did you use your own personal experience when writing about Camilo’s work? Adriana: Yes. So, Camilo’s work and my work…I mean, I really drew from what I do every day to kind of build Camilo’s agency. I mean, kind of like my wish list almost. I wish we could have a guy that just wants to drop $2 million on my agency and tell us, “Do whatever you want with it.” So, I think it was like my fantasy of what it would be like to be in an agency that is just being well-funded, and, like, resources are just there to do the work. So, I think it’s like my own fairytale of what it would be like to work, and just have a millionaire just drop money on us. But, yes, it’s very, very connected to my own work and kind of like my philosophy around the domestic violence field and how the work should go. Jeff: I like how you set the books in our extremely modern times too. And I think in “American Dreamer” as Nesto faces the discrimination of the, who I like to call the evil woman, how he deals with it because I think that it tells a story that not everybody necessarily thinks about all the time. Adriana: Yeah. And I really wanted to contrast, even in the book like Jude’s own reactions to the racism and the obvious discrimination and sabotaging and Nesto’s reactions to it, and the reality that there are different consequences for some people than to others. And that that’s a reality you kind of just have to work with. Jeff: And I loved how he dealt with it too, taking that high road. I just like, “Go, Nesto.” Adriana: Right. I mean, it’s a reality, like, it could have a consequence that was like very, very difficult for him. So, he couldn’t just like get into a thing with this lady. Jeff: Right. “American Dreamer” was your first book. How did you come into writing romance and specifically MM romance? Adriana: So, I’ve been toying with the idea of writing an MM romance for a long time. I’ve been a MM romance reader for, like, a long time. I was at the first GRL (Gay Rom Lit Retreat). I’m like an OG of MM romance. But I was a lot more involved in the community, and then kind of stepped back. I got busy and I just kind of kept reading, but I had it in the back of my mind. I find that what MM romance brought to my life, in terms of dynamics and relationships, and seeing…like I said, having friends all my life that were gay men, and me being so close to so many men who were like looking to fall in love and not being able to see love stories. I remember when I started reading LGBT books, they were very, like, sad, very sad stories like in the ’90s, right? I mean, I grew up in the ’90s. And so just finding your romance was something that was so incredibly wonderful for me. And I thought, “Wouldn’t it be even more wonderful if I could actually find my particular experience and the particular experience of the people who I love in those books?” So, it was kind of like a combination of going to a place…like the type of story that had been really meaningful to me, and then kind of putting my own experience into the space. Jeff: What was it like to write the first book after having read so many? Was it kind of an easy process or was it crazy and hard and took years or…? Adriana: So, it didn’t take me that long, if I’m honest, but I had been thinking about it for a long time. So, before I actually started writing, I kind of did a whole year of reading a lot of craft books, and going to workshops, and trying things. And I actually started a book set in Ethiopia, which is also a gay romance. And I got through a third of that and I was like, “I cannot write this book. I am not equipped to write a gay romance in Ethiopia right now.” And I decided I wanna do this story, this “Dreamer” story. And then that’s when I started it. But it was like a year and a half before I actually felt brave enough to actually write it. Yes. Jeff: I’m so glad that you found that bravery. Who would you say your author influences are? You say you’ve read, you know, MM forever even before it was truly MM, back in the sadder days? Adriana: Yeah. I have a lot of authors that…I mean, I’ve loved a lot of authors from the beginning that I think, I don’t know if I emulate, but I think about a lot in their…kind of how they render a story. Like K.J. Charles, I think, is a wonderful author. I think she just does things that are like phenomenal in writing. E. Lynn Harris was probably the first queer romance that I ever read. I think it’s really sad that he’s not, like, in the canon of what we talk about when we talk about queer romance. So, yeah, but I mean there’s a lot of writers I like. Amy Lane’s early work was super significant for me. I thought her…some of her early books are really some of my all-time favorites. So, yeah, there’s a lot of authors that I kind of go back to and read just to kind of be inspired by the way that they render a story. Does that make sense? Jeff: But what is it about those books that resonated for you so much? Adriana: I think…well, first of all, it was they felt familiar in a way that was like a discovery almost, because I didn’t really ever know any people…a black man who was really exploring the falling in love and the feelings, and the struggle, and the conflicts of trying to make yourself happy, and to find the love that you have…to keep the love that you’ve discovered, right? So, I think his (E. Lynn Harris’) books thought were just so beautifully written, and so tender, and so heartbreaking. It was just wonderful. I think being raised in Dominican Republic where there’s, toxic masculinity on steroids, like, the tenderness of his books really was something that I hadn’t read before. I think it just was kind of like eye-opening to me. Will: Now, so far in your “Dreamer” series, we’ve had Nesto and Jude’s story, and Camilo and Tom’s story. There is, of course…thank God, there’s going to be a third book. Whose story are we gonna get in that one and what can you tell us about that one? Adriana: So, it’s Patrice’s book. Patrice is Nesto’s friend who is a Haitian-American man, who’s a professor. It’s set in Ithaca. He conveniently gets a job at Cornell in the economics department and moves to Ithaca. And he reconnects with Easton Archer who is a character that we meet in “Dreamer” who’s a prosecutor, an assistant district attorney in Ithaca. And Easton is white, so it’s an interracial romance. Yeah. Jeff: When does that one come out? Adriana: That one comes out in October. I just saw a proof for the cover last week…or no, earlier this week, and it is so nice. I love it. I think it’s my favorite one, and I really love the covers for both books so far. I’m calling it my Black Lives Matter romance, although it’s not super intense, but it’s definitely…like the conflict between Patrice and Easton is definitely revolving around kind of having to navigate both of, like, their positions in life. Will: We got a brief glimpse of Patrice and Easton, like you mentioned in that first book. And then in “American Fairytale,” there was a scene with all of the friends together and Patrice sort of like phones in on Skype while they’re, like, dishing about Camilo’s love life, which was very, very funny. So, I’m genuinely looking forward to Patrice’s story. I think it’s gonna be amazing. I can’t wait. Adriana: I know. I’ve been revising it, like I said, and I think it’s a sweet story. And then, there’s a little bit more of two characters that people have been curious about. Ari and Jin, who are employees of Nesto, and they are in their little tiny young person romance. So, they’re like a little cute element for a love story. It’s called “American Love Story.” It’s the title of Patrice’s story. Jeff: Cool. And then you mentioned before we started actually recording the interview that you’re writing the fourth book right now. Any teasers on that? Adriana: So, that one is not an MM. It’s an MF, actually. It’s Juan Pablo’s story. And Juan Pablo is…it’s like a, I’d say, a second chances story. And the heroine is Priscilla who is Nesto’s cousin, who’s a police officer. And it’s called “American Sweethearts.” So, the book starts with a wedding in the Dominican Republic, but I’m not gonna say whose. Jeff: Oh, such a tease. Will: Oh, man. Adriana: Yeah. I’ll tease a little more when I have…I feel like I can’t tease too much on this book because it’s not even halfway done yet. But right now, I’m writing the first few chapters and they’re all in this wedding in the DR. So, everybody is there. Jeff: But I do like how you…we’ve seen with some traditionally MF series where an MM book ends up in the series. And I like how you’re kind of spinning that around too, you’ve got an MM series so far and you’re putting an MF book in it just to, like, broaden that universe out. Adriana: Yeah. So, my kind of little tagline is like, I write romance full of people who look and sound like my people. And there’s a lot of my people who are gay men, like so many of them. But not all of them are. So, I wanted to, in this series at least, have one story where, you know…like both Priscilla and Juan Pablo are queer. Like, she’s pan, he’s bi. But it’s also like a different type of, you know, experience because they’re both engaging in a straight relationship, which brings in…has its own privileges in terms of how it appears. So, I also wanted to explore that a little bit. Jeff: And I think exploring the pansexuality too will be interesting because that doesn’t turn up in a lot of books, at least the ones that cross my radar. And I think it’s nice to see that representation alongside the ethic background representation that you’re bringing as well. Adriana: Yeah, yeah. And it’s something that I think it’s…because of their age, I’m trying to kind of like engage a little bit in even Priscilla arriving to a place where she’s like, “Oh, actually, I’m pan,” as opposed to like, “I thought I was bisexual,” and how she arrived at that. Because I think that’s something that, for people my age, like I’m 40, it’s something that we arrived because we didn’t even have the language for that. Like, 15, 10 years ago, we were like, “Oh, I think I’m gay.” But then it’s like, “Oh, but there’s a whole spectrum of sexuality, gender identity.” And I think there’s so much that we didn’t know – that we know now – that should be coming up in books. Jeff: It’s great that you’re leading the way to kind of get some of that out there, too. Adriana: Yeah. It’s a great time to be writing romance, I think. Jeff: So, besides the “Dreamer” books, is there anything else coming up that you’re looking to write in the coming…I’ll say years since “Dreamer” has you going for the rest of this year probably, if nothing else. Adriana: Yeah, yeah. So, I do have a couple of things that I’m working on. I’m in the process right now of getting out this…I did write the gay romance set in Ethiopia, and I’m in the process of…like, I should have some good news about it soon. And it’s a romance set in Ethiopia, and it’s a Dominican-American relief worker. I did international relief work for a long time. And I lived in Ethiopia for about five years. And so, I really wanted to write a book set in Ethiopia because I have a lot of love for Ethiopia, and my years there were very significant in my life. So, it’s a gay romance. It’s not legal to be in a same-sex relationship in Ethiopia so there are complications. And it’s a Dominican-American relief worker and a colleague who’s Ethiopian, and they fall in love. Jeff: I am so glad you finished that book. You kind of left that off back there when we were talking about it before, because that will be great to see… I have, you know, no experience in any of those spaces. So, to read a romance set there will be an adventure. Adriana: Yeah. It was wonderful to write. Like I said, I have a lot of love for that country. And I think people’s perception of it is like, you know, people starving. And there’s just so much richness and so much beauty and magic in Ethiopia, that I really wanted to just show a different face to it. And I think it’s like a really sweet romance, too. And the setting is interesting. It’s more like a new adult. They’re in their 20s. Jeff: Do you think it will be out this year, maybe? Adriana: I don’t know of this year, but definitely early next year. Like, for sure early next year, yeah. Will: Very cool. Fantastic. Definitely looking forward to that. Now, you’ve given us a lot of amazing information about all of your amazing books, but if our listeners want to learn even more, where can they find out more about you and your books online? Adriana: So, they can go to my website, it’s adrianaherreraromance.com. I’m pretty active on Twitter, and my handle is @ladrianaherrera. And Facebook, I’m also there, Adriana Herrera. So, those are the places…and I’m on Instagram but not as much. Jeff: Very cool. We will link to all of that, plus all the books in our show notes so that folks can easily click on that stuff to find you. Adriana, thank you so, so much for being with us. It’s been awesome talking to you. Adriana: Thank you. It was so much fun and just as amazing as I thought it was gonna be to chat with you guys.

April was our most downloaded month ever. Thank you to our listeners! Jeff and Will discuss their upcoming travel schedule. They will be at the Romance Writers of America national conference, Podcast Movement, Dreamspinner’s Author Conference and GayRomLit. Jeff reviews Top Secret by Sarina Bowen & Elle Kennedy and Red, White & Royal Blue by Casey McQuiston. Jeff interviews Casey about her debut novel. They talk about the inspiration for Red, White & Royal Blue and the impact the 2016 election had on the story.  In addition, they discuss the recently announced movie adaptation, what got Casey into writing romance and what she’s working on next. Complete shownotes for episode 187 along with a transcript of the interview are at BigGayFictionPodcast.com. Here’s the text of this week’s book reviews: Top Secret by Sarina Bowen and Elle Kennedy. Reviewed by Jeff. I’ve been a huge fan of Sarina Bowen’s for some years now. Her Understatement of the Year is among my favorite books of all time and I also love Him and Us which were co-written with Elle Kennedy. Sarina and Elle are back with their first m/m romance in three years with Top Secret. They’ve written an extremely satisfying enemies to lovers romance that sizzles but also has some extremely sweet parts as well. Keaton’s a college junior from a privileged family whose been with his girlfriend since high school. For her birthday, she announces that she wants a threesome. After brief thought Keaton agrees. He lives in a frat house where one of his frat brothers is Luke. Luke basically keeps to himself barely gets along with anyone in the house. Luke’s a townie, going to school on an academic scholarship and as a despicable mom and older brother who only want to take advantage of him. He lives in the frat because it’s cheaper than a dorm and he’s running for president because that means free room. Keaton looks to an app to help find the right guy for this birthday present. He signs in as LobsterShorts and soon ends up talking to SinnerThree. Once SinnerThree finds out it’s Keaton’s first three way, he wants to make sure Keaton would be cool with him in the mix and to start considering what the rules would be. SinnerThree even gives sexy homework. This gets Keaton thinking because he’s buried his feelings about guys for a long time. Of course, SinnerThree is Luke, who lives right across the hall. What makes this book work so extraordinarily well is the two sides of Luke and Keaton we see between their public personas and their chats on the app. Luke wants to escape the town and the life he’s known growing up. He strives to excel in school so he can get the high-paying job and never be reliant on anybody again. Meanwhile, Keaton knows he’s got all the privilege but he also chafes at the expectations that his family and friends put on him and he keeps all that to himself because it’s what he’s supposed to do. When they’re chatting as SinnerThree and LobsterShorts the conversation occasionally drifts from figuring out what Keaton’s boundaries actually are to discussing their realities and what they want out of life. Their emotional shields fall away. The way Sarina and Elle transition from sexy to sweet and back again is perfect. Of course, the night finally comes and Keaton and Luke find out they’ve been talking for weeks. The night doesn’t go as planned, but they don’t stop exploring their sexual feelings or sharing closely guarded secrets. Both guys have great growth as Keaton comes into his own, embracing his true sexuality and the career he wants after college. I’m particularly happy this wasn’t a gay-for-you story but rather about a young man figuring out who he is. The battle for Luke is about his sexuality at all–he’s proudly bisexual. He can’t fathom that anyone could love him because of his terrible family. He’s been so battered by them, that he’s hesitant to accept help from anyone because it would surely come with strings. Thankfully, even though Keaton bungles quite a few things with Luke, he also works to make it right. It’s a credit to Sarina and Elle that they have created such fully fleshed out characters who evolve so much through the story. I was invested in so much more than the romance because I wanted these guys to find their way too. The motley crew of frat brothers also brought some great depth to the story as they were a mix of those who were genuinely kind and others were douchey. The parents were also an interesting contrast between Luke’s trailer trash and Keaton’s very well-to-do. Keaton’s father and mother are far more than meets the eye too. I don’t want to get into spoiler territory, but I have to call out them out too. It’s an example of Sarina and Elle creating multi-dimensional characters. Another extraordinary part of the story for me was how the black moment played out. A lot of stuff goes down and there were plenty of opportunities to cheapen the story. The way the last twenty percent of the book played was perfect even while it provided me with quite a few moments of stress. We’re headed into summer and this book is perfect for vacation reading. I highly recommend Top Secret by Sarina Bowen and Elle Kennedy. Red, White & Royal Blue by Casey McQuiston. Reviewed by Jeff I knew this book would be exactly right for me. I have a thing for the royal trope and the idea of an American first son and a British prince getting together made this a must read. What I didn’t expect was how Casey McQuiston elevated the material putting this enemies to lovers romance on the list of my all time favorites. Alex Claremont-Diaz is the first son. Henry is the prince. They have secretly crushed on each other for years. They developed an enemies vibe at the Rio Olympics when they had a less than good encounter, especially from Alex’s point of view. Move forward to today and a near international incident set off by the two at a royal wedding. As part of PR disaster control, a story is created that Henry and Alex are actually the best of friends. After some forced outings to appease the press they start talking to each other more and get past their public personas. One of the things that makes this story works so well is Casey has created an alternate history that many of us would like to see. Claremont took office from Obama so the Trump nightmare never happened. And it’s wonderful that her son is Mexican-American given the current hate filled climate around immigrants. There’s even a couple of lines in the book about how it’s not lost on Alex that there are some people who hate that a Mexican-American took the job of first son. Alex and Henry talk a lot about the lives they want. They’re both expected to meet family obligations and be leaders for their countries–it’s not really what they want though. The texts, emails and phone calls as Alex and Henry reveal more and more of themselves are absolutely priceless. At times funny and others heartbreakingly honest, they talk about how they feel trapped. As the first sparks of romance blossom between them their enemy side is quite fiery as they have rage filled kisses before succumbing to the fact that this is something that they both desperately want. The back-and-forth between sweet romance and the slightly angry romance enhanced the story as they fight against their feelings. The reality stays firmly rooted throughout the story and I loved that. Sometimes the royal trope, as much as I enjoy it, is far more fantasy than reality. It’s part of what makes the trope so good–that chancea prince might be your neighbor. This world could exist–a prince and a member of the first family. Casey gives them all the trappings, including secret rendezvous’s that are partially orchestrated by their security teams. Of course, as must happen the romance is horribly revealed and damages them both. The guys had to really work for the happy in this book, which makes the ending so sweetly satisfying. There were a lot of ways the end could’ve played out, but I can’t imagine one that would’ve been more perfect than what Casey gives us. I haven’t felt as overall thrilled by a book as I have by Red White & Royal Blue in quite some time. It reminded me of reading Becky Albertalli’s Simon vs. the Homo Sapiens Agenda and the wonder of such rich, vivid characters in a charming story that deserves to be real. Casey captured not only an America that I desperately want to live in but a romance that was everything that I ever wanted. I could gush on and on about this book, and will more in the upcoming interview. For now I’ll leave this by saying that I beyond highly recommend Casey McQuiston’s Red White & Royal Blue. This interview transcript is sponsored by Dreamspinner PressDreamspinner Press is proud to publish Hank Edwards and Deanna Wadsworth’s new book Murder Most Lovely. Check it out, and all the new mystery and suspense titles from your favorite authors like Amy Lane, KC Wells, Tara Lain, and Rhys Ford, just to name a few, and find a new favorite author while you’re at it. Go to dreamspinnerpress.com for everything you want in gay romance. Jeff: Casey, welcome to the podcast. Thanks so much for joining us. Casey: Thank you so much for having me. I’m very excited. Jeff: So, before we got to this segment, I spent a ton of time just going over “Red, White & Royal Blue” as being one of the best things I’ve read this year and one of my top books maybe in the “ever” category because it’s everything I needed in a romance with the prince trope and essentially royalty in the U.S. with the first son. And, I mean, Alex and Henry are so awesome. Tell us what your inspiration was behind this book? Casey: Yeah. So I first started…actually, it’s weird. A couple of days ago, I was going through my Timehop which shows you, you know, what you tweeted two, three, four years ago, and I realized that, a few days ago, which is April 13th, was the day that I tweeted, “Hey, I just had this idea for a book.” And it took me back to that moment of the exact lightning strike moment when I knew what I wanted to write. And this is a question we’ll get into later, but it was one of many attempts at a book I had started and none of them had really taken hold of me like this one did. So it was early 2016, I was obsessively following the presidential election, which, you know, we all were at the time with a lot of optimism. And, at the same time, I was reading two books. I was reading “The Royal We,” which is by Heather Morgan and Jessica Cocks, and it’s basically almost a novelization of Will and Kate with a bunch of different things changed about it. So I was reading that. And I was also reading a super dry Carl Bernstein Hillary Clinton biography, which was a fun little juxtaposition. And I had this idea in my head of I want to do… I’ve seen so many sub-versions of prince charming trope, but I feel, as a queer person, I’ve never seen one that seems the most obvious to me, which is, you know, what if, he wasn’t the perfect, going to produce a million heirs, prince, you know. And then on the other side, I was I loved “Chasing Liberty” when I was growing up and “My Date with the President’s Daughter” and I was really into the idea of a rom-com starring this rebellious first kid, and I couldn’t decide which one I wanted to do first, and I was like, “Wait a minute. If I put them both in the same story, I don’t have to pick.” So, honestly, it was me being indecisive that led to that decision. And on a wider scale, a bigger scope, I just really was looking for the perfect, fun escapist tropey rom-com that was so undeniably fun that the fact that it was also queer wouldn’t keep it out of the mainstream, you know, because a big thing that I want to do as an author and as a queer person is push those stories into the mainstream and be like, hey, you know, it’s kind of what they say in “Love, Simon,” everybody deserves to have a great love story, you know. And so everybody deserves to have a big shiny tropey, fun rom-com, you know. So, yeah, that was kind of where it came from for me. Jeff: And there is so much rom-com-y goodness floating in this book. I think you pulled a little bit from everything. Without giving spoilers, because there could be some depending on what you pick for this, what are the rom-com moments that just sticks out for you as one of your favorites among all of them? Casey: Wow, that’s a good question. I have pulled so many tropes from so many of my different favorite rom-coms. But there is this one thing that I love in every rom-com which is the gratuitous karaoke moment, which is actually if you ever watch “Crazy Ex-Girlfriend,” it’s a song on “Crazy Ex-Girlfriend” like “Shake Me Up.” Okay, yeah, that. So it’s like “27 Dresses” does it, and “10 Things I Hate About You” does it where it’s like somebody gets up and sings a song in front of a bunch people for no reason. And it’s like, “No, this doesn’t happen in real life, but it’s super fun.” And so writing the whole karaoke scene, which I don’t think is a spoiler, that was so much fun for me because I was, you know, as musical theater kid in high school, we all were, and so I got to be so indulgent with that, and it was such a blast. I loved it. Jeff: I think you picked a great one right there because you’re right, there is that moment. There’s even that movie, which of course I’m blanking out on right now, that was like…it was a Rebel Wilson movie earlier, I think this year, that she’s, like, there’s always the karaoke moment that she ends up trapped in the karaoke moment in her own little thing. Casey: I love the karaoke moment. Jeff: That says a lot about people, the songs they pick. Casey: It does. It’s character shorthand for sure. Yeah. Like when Bea gets up and sings “Call Me” by Blondie in the book I’m like, “This is what she’s about, you know.” Jeff: Yeah. There have been so many accolades on this book before it even got published. I mean, we were reading about it, I think in “Blush” almost two months ago now. What’s resonating so much with all these pre-readers? Casey: God, you know, I mean, just to start off, I’ve been, completely blown away by the response to it. When I wrote this book I was like, “This is so niche.” It’s a queer political rom-com with royal elements. And also we talk about gerrymandering in it, and I was like, “This is so niche,” no one’s gonna care, no one’s going to publish it. I was like, “I’m going to try and query this for a month, and then I’m just going to self-pub,” you know. And the fact that people have engaged with it so much and that it has gotten, I think three-star reviews now which is just blowing my mind completely, so beyond grateful for those. It’s just been so staggering and incredible. But, I don’t know, I think that right now the world is really depressing. We live in a world right now that is at times literally on fire, you know. And it is so important to have these little oases or moments of respite and little escapist things because when I first started writing this book, I’m so neck deep in the news cycle and I really couldn’t finish it until I pulled out of it because I realized that wasn’t what it needed to be. It didn’t need to be mired in all of the negativity and all of the darkness that was going on in the world. It needed to be this spark of hope, you know, that would kind of feel… I think about when Obama won re-election in 2012, and I was with my friends. I was in college at the time and we went out on the balcony, and popped a bottle of $60 French champagne, and I think about how I felt in that moment and I was like, “I want this book to feel like that moment,” you know. And I think that a lot of people have been missing that feeling. I think that we have so few things, especially when we look at the political sphere right now, to be excited about and to be hopeful about. And I think that we’re all just nostalgic almost for when we had hope. And I think that what this book does is it lives in the space of being here and now and still having hope, you know, and I think that’s really resonating with people. And then I also think that people are just excited to see…we’re seeing it with Helen Hoang and Jasmine Guillory who are writing romances that are integrating, you know, neurodiverse characters and just racially diverse characters. I think a lot of people are tired of seeing, you know, the same two straight white cisgender, neurotypical people falling in love, you know. And so I think that people are hungry for something that’s different in rom-com that can show that different types of people can have that same big, huge, escapist magical love story. So that’s kind of where I think it comes from. Jeff: You noted that you started writing this in 2016, essentially before the election happened. Do you think you would have written the same book had Hillary won? Casey: That’s a great question. And the book I had planned to write before the election went the way that it did was a different book. There were so many threads that I ended up dropping. I, at one point, had…and this was before anything about Russia had come up. I, at one, point had… a Russian double agent involved in the campaign and I was like, “This is too unrealistic. No one’s going to buy this. I’m cutting this,” you know. And now I’m like, “God…” But, yeah. I mean, it definitely…I think it would have been more lampooning the Democratic Party…not that I have anything against the Democratic Party as someone who is registered as Democrat, but it would have been more of “Veep” style, you know, that we’re all on the same side here, so we’re going to send each other up kind of thing. And instead it’s still very tongue in cheek, and it still has that “Veep” side to it, but it needed to have more of…. it needed to be less cynical, basically, you know, because I don’t think that we can really afford a lot of cynicism right now beyond what, you know, roasting the President on Twitter is cynical, I guess. But, yeah, I think that there are certain things that happen in the plot that never probably would have been explored if the results of the election had gone differently because I don’t think I would have felt as much of an urgency to put those into the story. So, yeah, it definitely would have been different. It definitely would have been a lot different. But the President was always the same. President Claremont was the same character from the moment I came up with the idea for the book. She’s like Tami Taylor, from “Friday Night Lights” meets Wendy Davis, the politician from Texas, meets a tiny bit of Selina Meyer from “Veep” and probably every strong female in my life, you know. So, yeah, long story short, yes, it would have been different.  Jeff: One of the things I like about it so much, and you touched on this a little bit, is that it’s not two white guys getting together because Alex is Mexican-American. And certainly given how things have played out under the current administration, having that element in the White House as first son, it says a lot. And Alex comments on this, you know, periodically as he’s kind of going through things and how that aspect of his heritage plays into things. Did you have that set early on or did that kind of manifest as we saw how immigrants were being treated post-election and even during the election cycle for that matter? Casey: Sure. Well, the minute…it kind of was, like, the plot itself that informed what Alex would be because, like I said, the first character I came up with was the president and everything kind of formed around her. And I’m from Louisiana, and I have this huge chip on my shoulder about democrats, and liberal people, and progressive people in red states because I was one for so long. I live in a purple-y state now. But, you know, I feel they’re so often written off and discredited, and I can probably count on one hand the number of actual presidential candidates who came and campaigned in my hometown, which is the capital of Louisiana. And people just don’t see anything worth investing in. So I wanted to do a southern Democrat. I didn’t think that a Louisiana Democrat was that realistic, so I did a Texas Democrat. And from the minute I knew she was from Texas, I was like, “Well, it would make sense for her to have married a Mexican man, or a, you know, a first or second generation Mexican man.” And it just kind of went from there where I was, like, “You know, I really do like that idea of that.” I spent so much time in Texas, I know so many people from Texas, I know so many Tejanos and people… it just made sense to me. And then, you know, the more that the rhetoric kind of got really vitriolic about Mexican immigrants around the election, I was like, “Yeah, fuck you. Actually, I am gonna put some Mexican people in the White House.” Yeah, that’s what’s gonna happen. I did as much as I could with it. Obviously, I’m white, and I did a ton of research, I talked to a ton of Mexican friends of mine, and especially Tejano first or second generation people. And then what I’m really excited about with the movie is that we have the opportunity to bring in more people on the creative side who are Latino who can offer more of that voice, that can go farther than I could go with it and that can explore more things with it. So, yeah. It just felt really natural to me, he’s from Texas, of course, he could be half Mexican. That’s just so typical there. So, yeah, it was a very natural progression of the character for me. Jeff: And in a weird twist, I’m actually interviewing you from Dallas. Casey: Yes, I know. I was just thinking about it. That’s so funny. Yeah. I feel like that’s appropriate. I feel the stars aligned to have you interview me from Texas. Jeff: And finish the book while I’m in Texas. It was kind of crazy. Casey: Yeah. That’d be so appropriate. I’m really excited because my second tour stop is in Austin, and I’m so excited. I haven’t been to Austin, like, a year or two, and it’s just feels so right to go back with this book. So I’m so excited. Jeff: There is a ton of history in this book. Henry goes into a lot of history of the monarchy. And one of the things I loved is in the emails that Alex and Henry are trading, they end up and quote a lot of literature or other letters of historical people. How much of that was in your head, and how much was “I need to go off and do a ton of research?” Casey: So, for me, a lot of…when I was talking about… there’s parts where after Alex starts figuring stuff out, he starts, like, develops independent research of, like, let me remediate myself on queer American history, and reconnect with it, which I think is something that a lot of queer people in their 20s do. Especially for me when I was 20, 25, and then I started to figure myself out, I was like, “Wow, I need to know the first thing about my own community.” And so I went back and really read a lot and educated myself. And so a lot of the American history, American queer history was stuff I was already familiar with because that’s something that I felt was my responsibility to learn in the past. But, yeah, I definitely didn’t know a lot about queer British history at all. And so that was a lot of reading for me, a lot of, you know, finding history threads on Twitter, and then okay, I’m gonna go look up all these stories individually, and find out what’s the real truth, because things get twisted online. But, yeah. The letters kind of started with…and this is gonna date when I started writing this, but I was really coming off the “Hamilton” high, you know, which I think we all were in early 2016. It was like, “Oh, man, I’ve been mainlining Alexander Hamilton history for six months, you know.” And, you know, I was really interested… I love all of Hamilton’s love letters with Eliza, but there was also his letters with Florence that were really fascinating to me, and I had started looking into that and that was how I found this book called “My Dear Boy” by Rictor Norton. And I found that because I was researching the Hamilton Lawrence letters, and that was where I found a lot of the letters that are featured in the emails. And then I also was looking into Virginia Woolf, and Eleanor Roosevelt, and all those figures from history who also have a lot of archive letters that are very interesting. And, yeah, honestly, it was almost…I had a blast with it because it was just a queer history, like Easter egg hunt. And, you know, I intentionally did that in the book because I pictured this book…I pictured it being something that a lot of people at different points in their journey with queerness would read, and I would want…let’s say some 19-year old who’s just figuring things out, and they don’t really know anything about queer history, I’m like, “Well, here’s the name of something that you should go look up.” “Here is ‘Paris Is Burning,’ go watch it,” you know, kind of thing. And so it was, it’s really, a bunch of sneaky history lessons. I’m a nerd, and I was like, “You should know this, too.” But, yeah, I had a blast doing that. And then just research, in general, was just so much fun. I spent so much time poring through the royal collection archives online, just for throwaway jokes and stuff. I was a journalist for six years before I quit to do this full time. And so, yeah, I’m a huge nerd and I love historical context for everything because that’s just what I’ve been wired to do for so long. So, yeah, that’s kind of where it all comes from for me. Jeff: And my musical theater geek self loves that “Hamilton” had a play in that because I kind of felt that I was reading some of it’s like, “This seems very ‘Hamilton’ in some ways that they’re using this.” Casey: I battled with myself over whether “Hamilton” was a thing that existed in this universe, and if I should mention it in the book, and I was like, “I’m not gonna,” because it’s still so fresh and I feel it’s gonna date the book a lot. But it’s definitely, like, there’s this undercurrent of we’re doing colonial rap battles under the text, you know. Jeff: That’s one of the things I like about this so much is that it is current revisionist history, you know, because, I mean, most of it, and this doesn’t get to a spoiler, most of it is leading into the 2020 election, with Claremont being President in the here and now and having succeeded from Obama. Yeah, its current revisionist history. It’s very interesting how that plays itself out. Now, I think we mentioned that this is your first book that’s out there in the world. What got you into writing romance and specifically m/m romance? Casey: I mean, I have always consumed all types of media and this is my one sacrilegious answer that I give in interviews which is I’m really more into movies and TV than I am into books, and that is the most media that I consume. It’s not what I write, I’m not a screenwriter, I’m not good at that type of writing, but it is where I pull most of my influences from, and what I consumed the most as a kid, I mean, unless you count “Harry Potter,” which everybody read… Jeff: Which does very much exist in the “Red, White & Royal Blue” universe, which I also love. Casey: Oh, yeah, very much so. But what I engaged with about all of those things was the relationships in them. I’ve watched “Lost” and I was like, “I don’t care about Dharma, or the clues or what this island actually means to the polar bear,” I was like, “I care about that everybody’s gonna end up together that I want to end up together in the end, you know,” and it was always like that with everything I watched. I’ve watched “Buffy,” and it was always about that for me. It was like, “This is cool, mythology is cool, whatever, but, like, Spike,” you know. And it really that was just what grabbed me, and so I knew that was what I was always gonna wanna write. And I tried to write other genres. Every other book I tried to start writing was young adult, magical realism, or young adult fantasy, which is clearly not my genre. And I tried a bunch of different false starts in those genres, and it didn’t pan out for me. And this was, like I said, the first time, I had an idea that completely grabbed me. And I think, like I said earlier, I gravitate to writing queer fiction for the same reason that straight people gravitate to writing straight fiction which is that I’m a queer person, and it’s my experience, it’s what I know. I didn’t really come into this book with an idea of what the gender should be more than what the story would be and it formed around that because I didn’t think that the story would take on all of the same qualities. If it was two women, you know, I thought that it would be a little different tone. I felt if it was two women there’d be a porn parody within 15 minutes of it coming out, you know. And so it’s just, there’s just different ways that lesbian couples and gay men couples are perceived by the world I felt, and for this story it made more sense with two men, and I also wanted to do that prince charming trope sub-version. And so it just kind of told me what it wanted to be. But my next book is…it’s about two women, and it’s a completely different story. And so, yeah, I really…honestly, it’s just me trying to make queer rom-coms a mainstream thing more than anything else. Jeff: More power to you. And, so far, it looks like you’re doing a great job with that. Casey: Thank you. Thank you so much. Jeff: This question may not have a good answer based on what you just told us about your kind of TV and movie thing, but are there authors who influence you? Casey: Well, yeah, I mean there are definitely authors that influence me. I loved Oscar Wilde growing up which is, you know, I was 15, my sisters, I remember being at my sister’s college graduation with highlighter and sticky tabs going through “The Importance of Being Earnest.” So, yeah, I did my term paper in high school on “The Picture of Dorian Gray,” and I was like, “This is straight behavior.” But, yeah, Oscar Wilde was a huge influence on me. The “Harry Potter” books, yes, of course, they influenced me. I read a lot of non-fiction and a lot of memoirs actually because I love the voice of them, and I think that’s what helps me to have a good narrative voice. So I love Carrie Fisher’s writings, I love…Nora Ephron’s memoirs are all incredible, Mary Karr. Let’s see, what else. I’m looking at my bookshelf right now. What else do I read? Jane Austen, obviously, the classics of romance, you know. And then more recently, my favorite author right now is Taylor Jenkins Reid. “The Seven Husbands of Evelyn Hugo” is my favorite book I’ve read in the past couple years and definitely has earned a spot on my all-time faves shelf. And so that’s definitely… And I loved how she does a lot of…she does a lot of what we call in journalism alternate story formats, so epistolary style things that are threaded into the book, which is something that obviously I really love too. And then yeah, that’s…I mean, I read a lot…at least I read a lot of non-fictions like Rebecca Traister and Roxane Gay, those are those are all my faves. But then I pull from a lot of a lot of TV and movies. The biggest influences on this were “Veep,” “Parks and Rec.” There is this web series called “The Gay and Wondrous Life of Caleb Gallo” that I love, and it’s so millennial absurdity that it really kind of like… there’s a shout out to it in the book because they play the song, “Loco In Acapulco” by The Four Tops in that show, and I put that in the book. Yeah. So I’m kind of all over the place. I have a lot of influences and a lot of things that kind of all feed into what comes out of my brain. Jeff: So let’s talk movie. You hinted that a little bit ago. Amazon and Greg Berlanti picked this up before, you know, again before it’s even published out to the world. What was your reaction when you first heard that that was a done deal? Casey: Well, I mean, it was so many stages of reaction because what people don’t see behind the scenes is that the process is crazy. It starts with I have a Hollywood agent, and she sends it out to people and then one producer expresses interest and then more producers can if they want to, and then it turns into you’re on the phone with, you know, such and such from whatever huge production company, and it’s like, “I’m not qualified to do this.” And you talk to those and you pick your producer, and that’s how I picked Berlanti. And I was just really excited to even have a chance to work with them because I’ve loved so much of their work, not even just looking at “Love, Simon,” and going back to “Political Animals” which was a six episode series that’s on Netflix. It’s got…honestly, I have to say one of my touchstones too because it’s got Sigourney Weaver is the president in that which is just amazing, and they’ve got Sebastian Stan as one of the president’s kids, and he’s very tortured, and recovering from addiction, and he’s gay, and he’s Sebastian Stan so he’s crying, you know, and very beautiful. But, yeah. So I just knew that he had the range for it and I also knew that based on “Love, Simon” that production company had the chops to get an unapologetically queer rom-com into the mainstream. But also it was on a personal level, I just remember going to see “Love, Simon” in the theater and that was probably a week after I signed my book deal. And I showed up with an entire eight-inch Jimmy John’s sub in my purse because I knew I was going to cry and I like to eat my feelings. So it was literally me alone. I had to drive 15 minutes out of my city because I was living in Louisiana at the time to find a theater that was playing it, and it just me alone in the theater with my sandwich and was just weeping to Jennifer Garner, you know. And I just remember getting in my car and thinking if my book could make people feel half as seen as I just felt by watching that movie, then I will be so, so happy. And so I’d have the chance to do, to kind of pay forward what that feeling was for me to the next round of people, especially queer people, meant so much to me. And then yeah, Amazon, they just care so much about the project. They’re so passionate about it. They want it to, you know, really…they’re actually really invested in diversifying what is in the market, and taking some risks, and doing projects like this. And it’s just so incredibly mind-blowing, and it really doesn’t feel real yet to have people want to invest those kinds of resources in a story that I wrote. More than anything, I’m just so excited about what it could represent and what it could mean to people. I think about like…and not to at all compare the histories of these communities, but I think about “Black Panther” and “Crazy Rich Asians” and what those movies meant to have as big cinematic events geared around a demographic that wasn’t usually catered to by the mainstream, you know, and what it meant for those people and what it represented for the future of storytelling for different groups. And I like the idea of being able to make any kind of similar impact with movie is incredible. And I really hope that we can do that, and I really hope that it can be the beginning of a lot more queer rom-coms, you know. So, yeah, it’s amazing. I’m so, so humbled, and amazed, and really excited to see what comes next with it. Jeff: As you were writing, I think all authors tend to cast their books to some degree. Do you have in mind, and knowing this is totally separate from anything that Amazon and Berlanti might do… Casey: Sure. Sure. Jeff: …do you have in mind who Alex and Henry are, at least in your head, as you were writing if you had to assign them an actor? Casey: Well, it’s so hard because…and this is kind of an indictment of the state of Hollywood and that is slowly beginning to change, but there really aren’t a lot of young Latino actors out there choose from, you know. And so it was… there really wasn’t a definitive Alex in my head because I have looked and looked and it was so hard to find someone that fit. And that’s what’s exciting to me about the movie is I think that we will get a chance to kind of give a star making role to some young unknown Latino actor, which would be amazing, and I would love to do that. And Henry is just very elusive. There’s five million charming white British men, but in my head, he’s just so specific-looking, and I have not yet found anyone that matched him. But the parts that were, I think, easiest for me to assign an actor to were like… I always pictured Daniel Day-Lewis as Richards with like the silver foxy and then, Ellen Claremont in my head from day one has been Connie Briton. And then, I mean, Rafael Luna in my head is Oscar Isaac for sure, you know. Jeff: Oh, yeah. I like that. Casey: There’s some characters that I came up with the character first and then tried to figure out what they looked like, and there are other characters where… with Rafael Luna I was like, “I want a character who looks like Oscar Isaac. What’s he going to be?” you know, and that was kind of how that came to be. But, yeah, I’m really excited casting is going to be so much fun, and I’m very excited about it. And I’m really, really excited about just getting to see, you know, what we can do for some…I think there’s gonna be a lot of unknowns in the lead roles, and that’s going to be amazing because they’re going to be able to really step into and embody those characters without it being distracting, like, “Oh, that’s like so and so. I look at them and all I see is the character they played in ‘Game of Thrones’ or whatever.” Yeah. so I think that’ll be, you know, a fun thing. But, yeah, that’s kind of it for that. Jeff: Do we get to see more of Alex and Henry in the future do you think? Casey: I think that I would not rule that out, and that’s all I can really say about that. Jeff: Sure. Casey: Yeah. I think that that would be amazing. I would love to do that. Jeff: And you mentioned your next book is going to be a female pairing. Casey: Yeah. Yeah. So it’s completely different from this. It’s a much smaller scope of a world. It’s just a girl who moves to New York, and she’s from the south. I don’t think I will…I don’t know if I will ever write a protagonist that’s not from the south because that’s just so deeply ingrained in me and in my voice. But she’s from south, she moves to New York, and she kind of stumbles into this roommate situation where it’s just sort of ragtag band of misfits kind of thing. And she develops this huge crush on this hot chick who’s on her subway commute every day. And it’s kind of based on the idea of that way that you fall in love with something on public transit for like 20 minutes, and then you step off, and it’s like they never existed anywhere other than the train. They’re just there for 20 minutes, and you never see them again. But the thing is that she sees this girl every single time she’s on the train. And there’s kind of a twist as to… I will say there’s some light rom-com-y style time travel shenanigans that happened, and the girl on the train is not exactly everything that she seems. And so the whole book is about their relationship and at the same time trying to figure out what’s going on with this girl. But it is rom-com, and it’s super fun, and, of course, it has a gratuitous karaoke moment. Jeff: Excellent. Casey: Well, it’s more of like there’s a gratuitous karaoke moment, and there’s a gratuitous drag show moment. Yeah, so, range. But I’m really excited it. I’m hoping…I mean, obviously, we haven’t set a date for it yet, but it is super, super personal, book of my heart for me, and I’m really excited for people to read it. Jeff: Fantastic, definitely looking forward to that. Casey: Yeah. Yeah. It’ll be awesome. I’m excited. Jeff: What’s the best way for folks to keep up with you online so they could track your progress with what’s up with Alex and Henry and also the new book and everything else? Casey: Yeah, Twitter for sure. I’m kind of been taking a step back lately because since we announced the movie my notifications have been busted, you know. But, yeah, I’ll definitely be back on more especially during tour. I tweet out playlists and a lot of little trivial information like their birth charts and things like that on there, and then also Instagram. That one is more for like I’m here for this tour date kind of thing. So yeah, those are my big two ones. It’s casey_mcquiston on Twitter, and then casey.mcquiston on Instagram. Jeff: Very cool. Well, we will put the links to all of that in the show notes. Casey: Thank you so much. I appreciate it. Jeff: “Red, White & Royal Blue” comes out on May 14th, and we wish you just continued success because it’s been so much already and look forward to seeing the movie and everything else that comes from it. Casey: Yeah, thank you so much. I’m so, so grateful, and it’s been so much fun. So thank you so much for having me on.

Jeff Adler, Vice President of Yardi Matrix share his view of the latest state of Multifamily commercial asset class. Show: Achieve Wealth Podcast  Guest: Jeff Adler  Title: Multifamily State of Union with Jeff Adler  Host:  Hi Audience, welcome to Achieve Wealth Podcast, a podcast where we are tuning in to learn as much as possible. Today, we are bringing in an awesome guest, who is the keynote speaker at many conferences, many high-level conferences, so was able to get his time to spend with us today to go to as what I call the state of the Union of multifamily real estate. So today we have Jeff Adler who is the vice president of Yardi Metrics. Yardi Metrics is a US multifamily office, industrial and south storage as an information toolset in coordinating underwriting and asset managing commercial real estate investment.   So if you have subscribed to Yardi metrics report, which is awesome, very, very data rich and I think it should be part of your decision making in selecting markets and looking at trends in terms of a commercial real estate, especially on multifamily. Your mail would have come from Jeff Adler. So I'm very pleased to bring Jeff on board. Jeff, why don't you tell my audience something about yourself and your company that I would have missed out?  Jeff:   I'm based here in Denver. You already made fixes. Basically the data division of Yardi systems, which is well known in the property management sphere, across all different asset classes, we cover the multifamily office, industrial self-storage in all those different other asset classes. But my background was primarily in multifamily. I was the chief operating officer of a [01:49unintelligible] in Denver,  for about 10 years from 2002 to 2009 and I joined matrix about five years ago. So that's kind of what we do. And some of the work that I do is the basic products, the tool kit that helps you identify opportunities under find deals, underwrite deals, understand markets, understand entities and players in those markets. And then on top of that work, I have a team along with Jack Kern that talks about investment strategy, investment themes and the overall economy.   And so we try to put everything into context from kind of what's going on in the global economy, straight down to which deals should you buy that fits your investment strategy. And that's kind of what we do. So happy to be on the podcast and give you any information about what it is we're thinking.  Host: Yeah, I'm really excited because I read the reports that are created by Yardi Metrics on whenever you guys send by-market, by-economic at high levels so it's very, very informative and I love it.  Jeff:  As a part of what we do to get our name out, you can go to yardimatrix.com/publications and for free, sign up for our [03:16unintelligible] reports where we do those 10 multifamily markets a month, six office markets a month. We also do a monthly report that's free on the multifamily market nationally, the office market nationally and self-storage market national. So there's a lot that you can plug into that kind of can set a context so we provide free. And then if you want to learn deeper then you can talk with us and go deeper into the data service. So that was the resources that are available to all of your sort of listeners.  Host: Yeah, yeah. I would encourage all your listeners if you want to do commercial real estate, especially multifamily or an office or self-storage, go and subscribe right now. It's an awesome, awesome tool and information is free and it's really good.   Jeff: What else can I do for you? Let's get in there and let's start talking.  Host: Yeah, yeah. Correct. I mean I know we talk a lot about multifamily because I'm a multifamily operator. We own 1400 units in San Antonio, Austin, Texas. But I want to always understand about other asset class. I mean, recently I launch a book, it's called Passive investing, Commercial Real Estate, which I also talk about other asset classes. So I'm very happy to ask you questions about other than multifamily, you know, as a start. So compared to multifamily office and self-storage, what are the good and bad about each one of this asset class from your perspective since you look at all of this?  Jeff: Yeah, personally, I think multifamily is in an incredible sweet spot. So let me take a multifamily and we can compare it to other asset classes. The reason is is that there is an overall shortage of housing in the United States, which to a greater or lesser degree in different markets. And then it's really kind of an overhang from the kind of the crash. So we had a surplus of housing in going into the crash. But really now we have deficits, on a cumulative basis since '06, we've got a 200,000 unit multifamily and single family deficits. If you go from the bottom of the crash, it's about 2 million units. So how is this being expressed? And we also have, we have a number of demographic trends; people getting married later, having kids later, having fewer children, having student debt.   So if you look at all the divorce rate, look at all of these demographics, we seem to have like a secular shift in the number of renters and the renter households population in the United States overall. And you see that expressed in very high occupancy rates since the crash that are still hanging in the 95, 96 level at the national level, which is very, very high and rent growth that historically if you look at, and I've done this back in 1970, CPI and the rent growth are very, very tightly coordinated. Since the crash, the rent growth has been about cumulatively five to 600 basis points higher than CPI, it is an anomaly so it's not like the normal cycles you can go back to, this is fundamentally different. You can look at the extent that there is new supply coming on, about 300,000 units a year.   It's Class A, kind of an urban core or in places that are sort of urbanizing notes. There's the big opportunity for, I'll call it non-institutional investors, it's been in class B and Class C I would probably say 50 unit to 100 units where there's not a lot of institutional competition. There is a deep need for housing and the price umbrella of the new supply is so big; I mean the new stuff that's coming in is five to $600 a month different that is coming from the masses, sort of majority of the workers and renters can afford and are paying so you're really insulated from new supply pressure. And so again, if you look at the demographics in terms of the demand and job formation is really pretty good and then you look at the fundamentals of supply, it’s very expensive to bring new supply to market. There is a labor shortage, material costs are going up, impact zoning fees are high so you have the kind of the recipe for a great demand-supply balance and multifamily and this severe problem is happening on the coast.   So just talking to your maybe constituency in Texas, right? You can look at the severe problems that are occurring in California with job growth and affordability, there is a significant out-migration from New York, New Jersey, Illinois, and California. They're moving into all of the markets in North Carolina, in Texas, in Arizona, in Nevada and so you have in addition to the tailwind of organic economic growth happening throughout Texas you have relocation; and in a relative business-friendly environment  with a very high level of supply response relative to other parts of the country. So you have a lot of very positive things. So I'm very, very positive on multifamily as a sector, particularly class B and C assets; C is a little tougher because only just until recently you began seeing finally a wage growth at the bottom end of the skill sector, people would traditionally go into a C class asset.   B class asset, in my mind, is a little bit better because there's more income growth there and there's more sort of to work with. C class assets, generally speaking, you make your money on having very low expenses, very low turnover by picking your customers very, very carefully so that you get a community that's going to stay there and can tolerate maybe 2% rent increases, but you really can't push rent five, six, 7% in that group, they just don't have the income. Whereas in class B, you can push rents higher, expect a higher level of turnover because there's a deeper pool of people who can kind of pay the rent. Those strategies, particularly for the non-institutional investor are very attractive. And I really find there's a deep market in terms of demand and I view the economy as in pretty good shape.   There are some pressures; we're late into the cycle here so the biggest issue I see short term is that potential end version of the yield curve. Long-term rates are two- sevenish, they were at three- two and now they are two-seven again, short term rates are at two and a quarter. There's not a lot of room between the 10-year and the overnight rate. The importance of that is, is that if the short term rates go higher, bank lending will pull back, the data has been historical and you're 12 to 18 months from a recession; we're not there yet, but it's a tight rope.    My best guesstimate right now is we probably have another, I think in 2021ish is when it's likely to have a recession. I don't think it's going to be a big one, I think it's going to be kind of a mild one and the reason I think that is we did a big blowout in '09. And if you go back historically, and I'm bouncing around on you a little bit, but if you go back historically, the best analogy is what happened in the 1930s versus post role, World War Two recessions, they're different animals. So I think we're coming off of a big blowout, really a depression we got through very quickly because of great action on the part of the Federal Reserve.  So I do see a recession coming up, but I do think it's going to be a mild one. So really multifamily is best positioned, in my view, to serve right through this recession. And so I think, again, multifamily is a great asset class; its guard a tremendous amount of institutional and investment capital and will continue to. There are other asset classes out there. So office has traditionally been, I would say a big kind of institutional asset class requires tremendous amounts of capital and it's really viewed as a bond alternative. If you think of that as a bond alternative, it's bought largely for cash; if it yields 4- 5%, that's great. Again, we're viewing it relative to bonds and it requires a tremendous amount of capital to keep those assets fresh.  If you're an opportunistic office investor, you really have to take something like a suburban office, which is really beat up to hell and change its fundamental character connected to transit, make it into a canvas, and create a place. Now that has tended to require a tremendous amount of capital in order to play there. So I kind of view office is just really more of an institutional capital play because of all the capital requirements that are required for it. And it's hard for a non-institutional player, in my view, to have success in office unless you are riding off the coattails of a smaller building attached to these other investments; it's just a very hard thing to make work.   Now, the big playing industrial, you know, and I'll slip over to storage in just a second is really kind of what's going on with e-commerce. I mean that's what's driving industrial is the commerce need and really the pullback and retail. So retail is littered with strip malls that we just don't need or it can be repurposed to other uses. So what I do see often is people who are opportunist to be looking for sort of beat up retail assets that are distressed and changing the nature of that asset or for industrial what's driving the market is not knowing so much manufacturing, which really isn't driving space requirements, but it's really ecommerce and those tend to be very large facilities. I mean like 500, 300,000 square feet, a million square feet that are in near population centers to handle the demand. So there's active development pipelines and industrial. Again, it's very hard I think for a non-institutional player to sort of access the action because of the capital requirements that are needed in the industrial.   Self-storage is very much a different place; it is historically owned mostly by small owners and non-institutional players. The capital requirements to get into the sector are, generally speaking, much lower than multifamily or any of the asset classes. Right now, the issue at the moment is that there's been a significant level of development. Self-storage to the sector did incredibly well during the downturn. And the reason it did was that most of the people who have stuff and only about 10, 11% of the population use storage but most of the people who did use it, needed it to store their extra stuff; in a downturn, they didn't stop using it. In fact, in some cases, people use more of it because if they were going through struggles in their homes, downsize in their homes or apartments, they moved their stuff into a self-storage facility.   So the sector did incredibly well in the recession, has attracted a fair amount of capital and now more and more institutional capital is trying to get in. There's been a lot of development that's been going on and so the big issue in self-storage is finding an asset that's not under supply pressure or finding pockets. And then self-storage is a very local kind of asset class but the bottom line is the world is within three to five miles, that's it. Somebody could use somebody across town and it just doesn't matter. It's really that three-mile pocket or like a 10 to 15 minute drive time because people are using storage only to the extent that is near them. So a lot of storage developers basically track new development in multifamily and will plot the deal down close by or they'll look for new home construction and plops something near there.  They will look for pockets where there is less than about seven square feet per person and that's the tools we provide, where you can actually find the pockets of population that are not currently served. It is a good asset class for a non-institutional investor to get in and it does complement very nicely with multifamily because they're a complimentary kind of asset classes. I would say though, that we don't necessarily cover single-family rentals per se, but I would say, again, single family rentals along with, kind of 50 to 150 unit multifamily in self-storage, they're all complements of each other. They were around people who need space to live but don't have the capital to actually get into buying a home. And so I find we kind of track, we cover self-storage, we cover multi-family and we track single-family rentals because I view it as a complementary asset class.   I know a lot of people in that sector; I actually was in that sector myself for a year and I just knew that entire space is very good for, kind of the smaller institutional player and the non-institutional investor. Kind of a long expedition but [18:27unintelligible]   Host: Yeah, I didn't know that you guys have some tools to look at the self-storage demand analysis, which is very interesting so that's a really good explanation. So coming back to multifamily, so what you're saying from what I heard from you is the 2008 crash, the whole crash is equal into 1930s crash and that's a huge crash and we don't expect to see that in the next coming crash, right? Because a lot of people have that short-term memory about 2008 and everybody's like, okay, I'm not buying it. It's going to go down like what 2008 happened, is that correct?  Jeff: I mean, 2008 was an 80-year event. We're not going to see something of that magnitude in our lifetimes. What we're likely to see on a go forward basis, is something akin to the recessions that occurred prior to 2008, 2001 recession, the '91 recession even further back. So these were typical kind of recessions that we're not driven by debt blowouts, but what connotes a depression is that they are fuelled by overleverage in assets classes. A typical recession is where there's inflationary pressures and goods and services, which then lead [20:00unintelligible] kind of cooled by rising interest rates and it's kind of a minor. deleveraging.   So if you want to kind of get deep into this, for anyone who's on this, Ray Dalio, who's the CEO of Bridgewater Associates, has a great video on YouTube, a 30-minute video on how the economic system works. And he pretty much lays out basically the notion of a minor debt cycles, which occur every seven to 10 years and a major debt cycle which occur every 75 to 100 years. We just went through a major kind of blowout so we're unlikely to see a major blowout again in our lifetimes. We'll now do normal minor recessions and so you've got to be forward-looking as opposed to sort of backward-looking.   So with that in mind, right, the debt position of households and businesses are actually in pretty good shape. The issue we have is that the debt position of the federal government is the thing that's a concern. Now, fortunately, and again, I'm taking a bit of a tangent, our debt is denominated in our currency. So the debt really isn't going to be a problem because it can get inflated away. Other countries don't have that luxury and if you're worried about potential inflation, well you want to be in real estate because it basically marks to market on inflation and our debt is denominated in $6.   So paradoxically in a weird kind of way, real estate is very attractive because it's yield relative to current interest rates is high. But even if, God forbid, we had inflation, a recycle that came back, if your debt is denominated in $6, you make money because your debt depreciates and your income goes up nominally because your rents are sitting in nominal dollars. So I would say, real estate is kind of like, it's a win-win. Like if there's no inflation, it's good; if there's lots of inflation it's still good but I wouldn't do it, make sure your debt is in fixed. It's fixed versus I wouldn't go with a floater right now in terms of floating rate, interest rates, that wouldn't be a good idea.  Host: What about floating rates with hedge? I mean some people they say there's a cap on the floating rate. A lot of people do bridge loans or short term loans or they do a hedge.  Jeff: Again, I'd say, a bridge loan is designed because you have a value-enhancing program that you're going to execute. It's usually a  one to two-year bridge loan and for that purpose, it's just fine, right? Because you're going to do something different; you're going to create value, you're going to add cap or you're going to reposition the property so that makes perfect sense. And then you want something that gives you your payments as low as possible while you're executing your value-add.   When you're done with that value-add repositioning, if you choose to hold the asset, that's when you have to think about permanent financing and you don't want to be kind of on a floating rate, IO forever, in that case, because you're not getting the advantage of what might happen in the broader economy. You're basically, maximizing current return but you have an exposure. So I kind of view bridge loans as appropriate in the context of a value-creating program. But outside of it, it's very dangerous, you've got a lot of risks you're taking on.  Host: I'm out of all my short term loan so now I'm on long-term fixed rate loan, all agency loan, which is good but I know a lot of my listeners, have this notion of, hey, let's go do a bridge loan, I mean, it's easy to make deals work under a bridge because you get higher leverage. But there's also a notion of, oh, now we're going to hedge the bets on the interest rate hike by having an edge and there's a cap that they can do.  Jeff: But I would say here, but if the cap came into play, it's a cap per year. Suppose there is a lifetime cap is at a very high level if you have to get out of a bridge loan, what do you have to get into is going to be very unpalatable at the time. So I do think, again if I was giving advice to an investor is to say a bridge loan is great for a specific objective you're trying to accomplish, but it is not a long-term old strategy or if you're doing it, just understand you're going to maximize current income but you are taking on an asset risk that's rather significant. You know, everyone will make their own decisions and if they choose to do that, then they choose to do that but you should be aware of the risks that you're taking and not kid yourself about it.  Host: Yeah. Especially on syndication where we are raising money from private investors and we just have to make sure we communicate that to the investors and that he's okay with that, right?   Jeff: Yeah.   Host: Interesting. So you're talking about yield curve inversion, right? Where the daily yield curve might be higher than the 10 year Treasury, at high level so what is causing that?  Jeff: Well, what you have is an interesting kind of situation here and this is more geopolitical if anything, but it has deep implications for us in real estate if you're trying to understand the demands side. So this is the issue of, again, demand looks great, the economy is expanding, jobs are being formed, unemployment's low, wages are rising, all sounds great. So what happens in these periods of time? Well, normally, you would begin to see inflation; it would kind of rear its head and the Federal Reserve executing its mandate to try to kind of make sure the place doesn't get out of line, would tend to be pushing up rates on a short term basis to quote-unquote cool the economy. But what we're seeing very interestingly is, we're having economic growth, but where's the inflation? You're not seeing inflation really be systemic above a 2% rate. Which is what their stated goal for price stability is and why is that?    Because growth isn't that great in Europe, growth isn't that great in Japan and the trade pressures that the administration is putting on China is basically hurting the Chinese economy, which is why they're at the table in the first place and so there really isn't the system long-term inflationary pressures. So as a result, long term rates, it's your step in the market, the Federal Reserve has no influence really on long-term rates. They set short term rates but long term rates, they can't set directly. They can try to influence it and they did try to influence it in the past by buying up mortgages and other long-term securities but there's a lot of where generationally, and some folks get it simple and don't quite realize it, we're in a demographic period of time where there's a lot of global savings.    And you can look at those global savings, they are going into bonds. And if you look at Europe or Japan, because their economies are actual have declining populations, they're in a saving mode significant significantly. They're not in a consumption mode, they're in a saving mode, and they’ve got a lot of capital to deploy. The interest rates in Germany, for 10-year German government bond, are negative so our 10-year notes, a 2.7, the equivalent of what Italy is paying. So if you're a European investor, do you want to put your money into Italy or the United States? Because that's really the choice so if I had a choice between Italy and the United States, I'm putting money in the United States and so we are attracting a lot of capital on a long-term basis, which is keeping our 10-year rate pretty low. And there's no real evidence of inflation to justify an investor saying, oh my goodness, I need to be compensated for inflation and so I should get out of bonds and other assets that would cause the long-term like [29:24unintelligible]    So if long term rates aren't rising that much and there's not a lot of inflation, the Fed pushed up short term rates to the point where the fourth quarter, when the stock market meltdown was really a function of the market saying, well if the Fed keeps raising short term rates, they will create a yield turn version. And what happens is that short term rates are higher than long term rates. Well, if you're a bank, banks are in the business of lending money, borrowing money on a short term basis and lending money on a long-term basis. Well, if there are not enough margins in there for them to do that, they have costs, they stop lending because they would lose money if they borrowed short and lend long, it's not profitable so they choose not to lend money. Well, what you're talking about there is a contraction of credit in the economy. Well, when credit contracts, guess what? You know though it takes a little bit of time, you get a recession, you'll get a recession tomorrow or within 12 to 18 months you get a recession because there's a contraction of credit and that's worked its way through the system.   So if you think about us as in real estate, we deal in metrics that are rents, occupancies and things like that, our cash flows, those are lagging indicators. So what's happening in the real economy, what's happening in the economy is wage growth, employment. Those are the things that happen in the real economy. I look at the capital markets as a precursor to what's going to happen and then we have an economy which is then a precursor to what's going to happen with real estate operating metrics.   So by paying attention to the capital markets, I tried to keep our clients and our organization two years ahead of what will eventually show up in rents and occupancies and cash flows in real estate properties. So that's why I kind of dwell on the yield curve because if I looked at it, there are five models that we look at in terms of capacity, utilization, wage pressure, and of the five, the one that is, I'll call it the current binding constraint is the yield curve. So it's not the only thing I look at, but it is right now the key thing that I look at.  Host: Yeah. So that's the best explanation on yield curve and how it's going to impact because I wrote so many reports and listened to so many webinars by brokers and all that, but that's the best explanation, I get it completely. So what you're saying is if there's a yield curve, banks stopped lending bridge loan is more dangerous because if you are predicting that's going to happen by 2020 or 2021 and if you are initiating a bridge loan right now which has three year span, you are going to be landing in a spot where you may not have any funding at that time if the banks stopped lending,  Jeff: Right. And also you don't the maturities come up in a crash, right? Because what's going to happen, what happens in a downturn, even if it's a minor recession, is people withdraw from the market in terms of transacting, they don't transact. So what transactions do occur tend to be at a depressed level, not depressed level then it's considered quote-unquote, it's a current market value.   If you have a bank loan or a line of credit is coming due, they are going to revalue your loan devalue based upon an artificially depressed evaluation. And then they're going to say, oops, your loan devalue is a mess so basically they're going to squeeze you out. They're going to force you to add in more equity or to basically liquidate the line. So you do not want to be in a situation where your debt, if you have a five year term, you're going to see through this problem or seven-year term, but your two to three-year term right now, you bear a risk that you're going to have to come for refinancing when there is an artificial kind of re-evaluation of your assets.   And what's great about real estate is it really is a long-term value. That if you can last through a problem and not get squeezed out, generally speaking, you're going to be fine. Particularly in multifamily where the cash flows are much more durable, you may see a dip in occupancy of a few points. Your new leases might transact with lower rent, but you've got a lot of existing cash flow; you can always squeeze back on some of your expenses for six months, you can ride through a problem as long as your debt isn't coming due. That's the main thing, don't be squeezed out in the downturn. So you're dead strategy and multifamily is critical to your survival and value creation.  Host: Absolutely. That's good advice. Coming back to what you call the level of players in the market, right? So if you look at it in the past before coming back, what do you think about the high loan? Because I think in 2015, the lenders have loosened up, giving up more IOs to a lot more people. It is become default to have like three year IO, four year IO. When I started at that time, I know it was hard to get even one year IO and one year IO was sort of attractive because valuable then, but then 2000 was when lenders started opening up the flood gate and now it's like five, six years, seven-year IO kind of thing. What do you think about that? How would that impact [35:19unintelligible]   Jeff: Yeah, from a cash flow perspective, if you have an IO to an interest-only payment and you can get that for five or six years but it's still fixed; so on the conversion, it's a fixed rate kind of conversion, then great, you just got a great deal. You want your IO to be at a fixed rate and you don't want it to be floating. So if you can get a fixed rate IO for a certain number of years and you're guaranteed to convert to an amortizing loan at the NBIO period at a fixed interest rate, well, you kind of got your cake and eat it too, right? Because you got the benefit of not paying down the principal during the IO period, but you didn't expose yourself to the risk of having to go through a negotiation.    So great; if you can get it, go for it, right? I mean, that's fantastic. You guys can put that in your pocket or put that into the property so that you're going to be able to expand your cash flow. It really depends upon who your investors are and what their goals are, whether it's cash now or value appreciation later.   Host: Yeah. Where I was going with that question was a lot of people have justified the deal, doing deals because the numbers with IO, it looks much better now and it looks really good, right? So a lot of investors are coming in, especially at the level where we are right now, where there's a lot of syndicated commercial real estate deals are happening. There are very less sophisticated people who just look at as [37:18unintelligible] cash and cash, you get 8% cash, they just jump on investing in but that 8% could be IO and in the next three years, let's say rent doesn't go up or you have a deep in occupants, it's what you're talking about that 8% and once the IO kicks in, that 8% becomes 3% right? [37:36unintelligible] become negative so your basic concern is the loan. So I think, I don't know, in my perspective, there's a lot of deals happening right now in the past since 2015 with IO, especially at the less sophisticated level right now.  Jeff:  I would say, IO, it should be gravy, it should never be the main dish.  Host: Okay. [38:01crosstalk]   Jeff: If you're expecting the IO to make the deal work, your betting that by the time the amortization kicks in, the rents will have grown high enough to cover the amortization. I haven't run the numbers on that, but that would be the thinking, you have to get comfortable around is okay, what has to happen when amortization starts since that it actually was a good deal. And then say, well, the rents have to grow at 1% a year or 2% a year, 3% or 4% a year so you really need to stress test that assumption. But you know, this is where people take risk and so if you're taking this kind of risk, understand that in a downturn, that's going to be the first people who will basically get shut out.  They can't make their principal, they paid too much and when I had to start amortizing, they couldn't make a go of it. So I view that just as similar as the equivalent of a debt maturity; it's like, okay, if you've got an IO period of two years that you bought the deal on the assumption that in order to get your hurdle, the IO period is what made the hurdle work for you, you're basically are sitting at a two year refi’ and you better understand that what your debt service requirements are when you walk in into that. I know we're spending a lot of time on debt strategy here and I think that's kind of okay because the fundamentals are good, generally speaking. There's not a lot of too much supply so the demand is decent, the supply is decent and your death strategy. So there's one part of this, which is your value added, your value creation strategy; what are you doing to create value for your residents, to make your property more attractive to them and a better living experience so that you'll be at high rents and high occupancy? And that's entirely valid and I think, my view would be in terms of enhancing the resident experience, I think there's a bunch of IOT upgrade packages to existing properties that I think add a lot of security issues that people will pay for, not so much to manage your thermostat, but if you kind of know that your kid can come in and you can see on your phone when your kid came in from school and that they're safe, there's value creation there.  So I think we as owners have to look critically at how are we adding value to the living experience? Not just the four walls, but stickiness, right? Creating stickiness that keeps people kind of in place and so I think there's a whole set of strategies there. The debt strategy used to make sure it's honestly to make sure that you don't get kind of shaken out. That's really my goal as data strategy is not to get shaken out in a downturn. And if you could protect yourself from being shaken out in the downturn, then the fundamentals will basically bail you out. And so as we're talking about IO, which is people reaching to make the deal work when in some cases, I'd rather you focus on what can you do to add value, you can increase the revenues so you didn't have to go that crazy out financially.   Host: Correct.   Jeff: So focus on the value creation part that they had provided the increased rents where you don't have to go five years IO and kind of crazy kind of amortization and you're sort of sitting on a time bomb. So that would be kind of my take is; we're talking about debt, but it's more in the nature of put yourself in a situation where you can ride out a storm.  Host: Yeah, that's awesome, absolutely the right thing. Just make sure you're on a fixed rate loan, and the other thing that is very subtle is even though you're on a fixed rate loan, make sure if you have IO and make sure you have enough buffer when the principle kicks in. Because from my calculation at 80% leverage, you need at least 5% cash on cash buffer and on the 75, it's like 4%, in terms of return; you need to make sure you're still able to service that debt. Let's move on to a bit more different topic. So selecting a marker; so let's say, someone who wants to start in multifamily, multifamily real estate is very local, at the same time, multifamily is an asset class where it's very, very intensive in terms of property management so how would you recommend, how do they select the market?  Jeff: I look at a number, I'll call it very basic kind of fundamentals and it's on our website and in our materials, we only have a four-box model and that attractiveness of the city. And first of all, we come from the perspective of, how is wealth created in this economy? And I would tell you that I believe wealth is created in this economy based upon the force of ideas and the creation of new products and services, which tend to have an intellectual capital component. So where and in which cities are new ideas being formulated into new products and services? We call that intellectual capitals notice strategy. So we want to be in cities and within that, in or adjacent to the parts of major metropolitan areas where there's a concentration of people who are doing work with their heads, primarily.    And then within that context, we use a four-box model. Well, one is first of all, how business friendly is the state within the United States, in the state, at the state level, and at the city level, how friendly is the environment to the formation and creation and continuance of business. Next, we look at how many people are being educated in this area. So it's universities, community colleges, maybe even trade schools, but we're looking for, where is intellectual capital being created? So basically higher education and also, I focused on the quality of the K through 12 school system as well as alternatives for quality education for the port, like charter schools.   A third component is amenities; what kind of amenities and culture is being fostered that will attract and retain folks who are highly creative intellectually? So you're looking for arts and recreation and culture and music and trails and things that sort of like people who are active, healthy and thinking with their mind; where is that in your community or any community?   The fourth box is really the quality of the public-private partnerships. They're going on attempting to foster this environment that makes it conducive for the creation of intellectual work and the attraction and retention of talent, which then powers the growth in a market. Well, we have found, we've done this for the top 40 cities metropolitan areas in the United States is that these cases happen inside metropolitan areas and they don't happen everywhere. it's not uniform, there are clusters of them in any particular metropolitan area and we'd gone actually through the work of mapping those.   Now all of that is you kind of sort your way through that; we do this all across the United States. I track also very clearly domestic migration; you've seen a tremendous amount of domestic migration out of high-cost cities and into cities and states that our score well on these kinds of, all these four attributes. So for Texas; Austin, Dallas, Houston, and to a lesser extent, San Antonio all score well in these areas. And that is where, if you look at where people are moving from and where they're moving to and where businesses, moving from and moving to, that's why, getting a view of the entire country, that's why Orlando, Tampa, Las Vegas, Phoenix, Atlanta, Raleigh, Salt Lake City, are all doing incredibly well because they have a combination of good governance, good weather, which helps.   Plus these other condition where businesses are moving and where talent is moving. Now it's not to say that if you're in a core, we call it global gateway city, these cities aren't going away anytime soon, they are major centers of intellectual capital, but they are in places and in circumstances where you're kind of swimming upstream as a real estate investor and there is an increasing level of political risks associated with that as well. So among the core cities, the top six, and usually you can think of these cities as generally speaking--I'm I on the right track, Jim, with what you wanted to hear?  Host: Yes. Absolutely, go ahead.  Jeff: I could keep going on this [48:41 crosstalk] the core cities are viewed as Boston, New York, Washington, Chicago, LA, San Francisco, and sometimes I'll cross Miami because it operates as a core city. And if you look among those core cities, Boston and Miami are kind of like the best positioned and the other ones less so because of a very high cost and the tax bill and the tax law isn't helping.   So those areas were bleeding people anyway and now they're bleeding more. So Boston is pretty well positioned, Miami is pretty well positioned. But even with Miami, there's significant out-migration from Miami to Orlando and Tampa. So I like Orlando and Tampa in that regard and I know there are certain markets that I think are great markets but there's a lot of supply currently. Dallas is an example in Texas. Houston is how you diversify the economy but there's also a large supply response. So in Houston, I would say you have to be very localized; you want to be in places where there's some traffic congestion and you're very close to places where either the Anderson Medical Center or the energy corridor where people want to be and there's a certain level of stable demand so that's, that's kind of the story of Houston. But there are also other cities, Seattle, Denver, Charlotte, these are great cities; they do have a lot of [50:18unintelligible]  if I was talking to someone in the Midwest, I would say Minneapolis is a really good city because the weather goes against it, but it's a kind of a core, a great market, particularly in the suburbs.   Indianapolis and Columbus; their downtowns are sort of emerging and in creating something because of their good intellectual capital and very low-cost position. So they are kind of like the king of that hill as it were and they're getting benefits of outflow from Chicago. Most of the Chicago outflow is going to Florida or the Carolina's not so much inside the Midwest. So this is the way I think about cities;  you want to be in places and so if you're a smaller investor that says, look, I'm only going to invest wherever I am, I'm going to only invest to the extent that I can drive to it and I'm two hours away. Okay, fine, that's great. Go and look for the locations within your two hour driving radius. Go look for those locations that have these conditions, where is intellectual work happening and some of the best strategies are to be in an area and find that area and then find an area that's low cost to rent adjacent to it.   So even though you have a cost advantage that's within 10 minutes of drive time of intellectual capital note and intellectual capital notes or sound honestly in most of the top 40 US cities, you can find them, they're there. We do this for our clients, but anyone can do it if they do have the time to spend, and again, if you're investing within a two hour radius of where you are physically located, then your job is to get to know your economy, your regional economy and understand where interesting work is getting done. That's where you would tend to spend your time, that's how I think about it.   So when I come back with certain cities that are attractive or certain studies that aren't attractive, it's first looking at the basis and its intellectual capital work and then layering supply conditions on top of that.  Host: So are you saying that an investor in Texas should not go to some of the other cities and look for deals?  Jeff:  I mean understand that when you sort of non-institutional investor go out of your immediate ability to touch the real estate, if you have to get on a plane and you're a non-institutional investor, you are eroding your returns. So what is your competitive advantage as a non-institutional investor? So you have to be very sort of upfront with yourself and I would say your competitive edge as a non-institutional investor is not going to be necessarily a cost of capital because they're going to low cost of capital. It's going to be that you can have more intimate knowledge and you can get to the real estate more closely and you can provide more attention to it than anyone else can, that's your advantage or investing in assets that a large institution would not attempt to invest it, maybe a 50 unit property because they won't want to touch that. It’s a little subscale scale and you can't have a major property management company manage it; it just doesn't work in their strike zone.   So you've got to look for assets that you're not going to have competition from institutional investors and where you can bring a competitive advantage. And if you have to get on a plane to see it and you have to have a third party property manager who you eventually can get to it, where's your competitive advantage?   Host: Yeah, you're absolutely right. A lot of people think that where they are they kind of start finding deals and they start going somewhere else and they become out of state investor, right?   Jeff: [54:35unintelligible] out of state investor, I would say if you're at the point of having a big office and a large staff and a big discretionary fund, then you have the infrastructure to go across geographies, across the United States. If you are someone who doesn't have those advantages, well, play to your strengths; which is, go to places that those investors can't go or won't go and focus on your intense knowledge. The local economies that you can get to within two hour drive time and depending upon the cities in the region you live in, two hours is not slim tickets; focus on where you can add value. I think all of us have to focus on where we are going to add unique value and that's what we should spend our time on.  That is definitely how we, as an organization, decide how we're going to spend our time. And if I can't find a way to add competitive value to create value, I'm just not going to go do that activity because someone else can do it better. I need to focus on what I can do uniquely better that no one else can do or very few people can do. And that is getting, if you're a multifamily investor is being in asset classes that are smaller, that institutional investors and knowing where the nodes are and being in an adjacent place to those nodes with a class B or C asset and focusing on value creation to the resident that makes your property more desirable, more valuable because you don't want to be just a box.   But then you're in a commodity market, you want to create differentiation; either in the living experience, the things that you offered and ideally like IOT upgrades or other sort of a upgrades where people will pay you for these additional services because they add so much value to their lives and that's what you want to focus on.  Host: Awesome advice. Let me ask you one more question before I let you go. So between the primary, secondary and tertiary marker so I think we have to define primary very specifically; primary means, the entire coastal city that gateway cities, right?  Jeff: So the way I define primary, primary i snot a good term. We kind of US international gateway cities so there's seven US international gateway cities. There are primary markets, which are really the top 30 metropolitan areas. And primary in my mind would include places like Dallas and Houston and Austin, they're big markets. Then we have, I would call secondary markets where the economies are not nearly as diversified and then you're getting into smaller and smaller metropolitan areas. That makes sense?  Host: Okay. Yeah, it makes sense. So people go nowadays to look for Yale on the tertiary market, secondary and tertiary markets so do you think that's a good strategy?  Jeff: I've seen people go to Huntsville, Alabama and they've gone to very, very small markets in a search for yield because their investors are looking for current returns. First, is the metropolitan area you're investing in going through a process where it's changing its fundamental character. So if you were able to identify that Denver 15 years ago was going to go from a tertiary market to a solid kind of viewed as a major metropolitan investment-grade market, you made a lot of money because in that transition of the city, it was able to attract in a new group of investors who had a higher willingness to pay.   So one strategy if you're going to a smaller city, is the city in a process of changing its fundamental nature? That's a key issue because if it is, then you're going to basically riding on a trail. And I would say there are some cities like believe it or not, Orlando and Tampa and Phoenix that is changing the fundamental nature of their city to be less volatile and have a broader and more stable kind of basis to their employment. If you're going to a really tiny market, and I again, I've seen an investor go to Huntsville, Alabama and buy an asset next to a NASA facility, well that would mean a lot of sense, right? You have found a very interesting special situation in a very small market with good intellectual capital characteristics.   But the city, let's say Huntsville, I may be doing dishonor to Huntsville, I'm not familiar with what's going on in Huntsville but if the city is not fundamentally changing, it's character, then your issue is that there's not a lot of other people for you to sell to when it comes time to sell. It's the asset is what it is and you are basing your return on what overall capital market conditions are when you decide to sell. And if you never decide to sell, it may be a great cash flow play; I'm not saying it wouldn't be. You need to be kind of honest with yourself; if you're going to a smaller market than you've been in the past, are you going there because you think that the city is changing its fundamental character and will change to have the characteristic of a bigger city and will grow to that bigger city? In which case, I would say it's a very viable strategy, very worthwhile strategy.   If you're going only because you're getting a higher cap rate and that's it and you are taking on a lot of risk and you want to be honest with yourself and not kid yourself.  Host: Also I've seen in the past when the recession hits, the tertiary market is the first one to get hit as well, is that right?  Jeff: Because, the exception of this asset that's near NASA, those economies are not broadly diversified. They are generally the basis that local economy, it's usually one or two industries and there's a greater likelihood that one or two industries will get hit and you will have exposure that you can't get around and there's nobody else for you to rent too. So yeah, it is very clear so you do want to understand what's the basis of the local economy and do you understand what that basis is and are you willing to accept the exposure that comes with your renter pool being dependent on one or two industries?   Yeah, you might pick right and say these one or two industries will not be affected by changes in the broader economy. Okay, but I will say generally speaking, that these other industries in a smaller city will tend to be more focused on manufacturing and extraction, mining, and then some kind of extractive industries, which are generally because the real estate cost is lower. So there's less intellectual capital work being done, it's more extraction or manual or transformation of things and those do tend to get hit pretty hard in a downturn. So I just think you're taking on more risk.  Host: Got It. I don't want to take up too much of your time, I got so many other questions but I have to respect your time.   Jeff: We'll have to set up another time and you may do round two. It's been a pleasure being on your podcast.   Host: Yeah. Do you want to let people know how to reach you or how to subscribe to Yardi?  Jeff: Sure, the easiest way to do is go to www.Yardimetrics.com. That's one word and on that website, you'll see the publications department, you can sign up for stuff, you'll see my contact information if you want to reach out to me personally or any of my team and that's really the best way to kind of get in touch with what we do. And hopefully, this has made some sense to you and I wish you all much success in your investing.  Host: Thank you, Jeff, for being with us. Thank you.  Jeff:  All right. Take care now. Bye. Bye.    

New movie and TV deals are discussed with both Casey McQuiston’s Red, White & Royal Blue coming to Amazon and a Love, Simon series to the Disney+ streaming service. Jeff talks about seeing The Lightning Thief: The Percy Jackson Musical. New patrons Rhonda and Regi are welcomed. Will reviews the Netflix original Special. Jeff reviews Jay Bell’s Straight Boy. Jeff & Will discuss their trip to the LA Times Festival of Books. They also share the interviews they did at the festival with Julian Winters, Kim Fielding & Venona Keyes and S.A. Stovall. Julian talks about his upcoming book How to Be Remy Cameron. Kim discusses her Stars in Peril series and Venona also tells Jeff about her co-writing with Kim. S.A. gives the origin story of her Vice City series and how she uses caricature to encourage people to read the first chapter (she also did a super cute caricature of Jeff & Will). Complete shownotes for episode 185 are at BigGayFictionPodcast.com. Here’s the text of this week’s book review: Straight Boy by Jay Bell, narrated by Kirt Graves. Reviewed by Jeff. I went into Straight Boy without knowing much about it other than it was a young adult story involving Andrew, a gay high school student, who develops a crush on Carter, a straight (or maybe not-so-straight) boy. What made me buy the audiobook was the fact I’m a huge Jay Bell fan because of Something Like Summer and also for Kirt Graves’s narration. I knew these two together would give me a great read. And they did. With Something Like Summer and its sequels, Jay proved a master of telling a story with many characters and many plot lines that involve an array of emotions. He’s upped his game with Straight Boy. Two things happen right away–Andrew, a recent transplant to Chicago, discovers a boy who lives down the street having an argument with his parents and saying things like “I was born this way.” Andrew thinks he’s found a gay friend. The next day–his first day at his new school–Andrew comes out as he introduces himself in class. This makes him a target of the school bully, Bobby. Andrew goes off on Bobby, despite the bully’s threats and ends up getting sent to the guidance office. Here he meets Carter and discovers that’s the boy he heard arguing. Both of them end up in a special program at the school where learning happens outside a traditional classroom Andrew’s year is now set. Everyone–gay, straight or otherwise–inevitably has that phase where you want a romantic relationship that you can’t have. Andrew longs for Carter but also doesn’t want to wreck their friendship, which seems to grow stronger by the minute. The thing is, Carter seems to be a little experimental too and that only makes things more confusing for them both. In the hands of a lesser writer, this would end up a disaster on the page, but Jay deftly weaves the emotions and circumstances for both guys as they figure out the place they’ve got in each other’s lives as it evolves through the school year. I cheered for the good and wanted to protect them through the bad since my fifty-year-old self could vividly recall how confusing seventeen was. Bobby’s integrated deeply into their year too. He’s a friend of Carter’s and that mean’s Andrew is around Bobby far more than he likes–and he ends up putting up with more crap that he should. Andrew accepts dealing with that because he doesn’t want to lose Carter. It’s made even harder when Carter starts dating Bobby’s ex, Olivia. Along the way another of Bobby’s friends, Jackson, becomes tight with Andrew too, creating more bonds in the group. The evolution of Andrew and Jackson’s friendship is as interesting as Andrew and Carter’s. Things get rough in the last quarter of the book. Bobby doesn’t like the changes happening to his group and he plots revenge. I have to warn here that not only does bullying happen throughout the story at varying levels but as we get into the last act there’s also off-page sexual assault and a pretty epic final battle where Andrew, Carter and the group are in way over their heads. Again, Jay does an excellent job of telling the story, ratcheting tensions and putting characters–and readers–through the wringer. The epilogue was the icing on top of this cake. Jumping twenty years into the future, we find out where everyone ended up. There were some surprises here that made me go “awwww.” It provided the perfect ending. What this book excelled at was showing friendships up close–what makes them grow, what rips them apart, and most importantly, what can make a true friend for life. It also shows, perhaps too intensely for some readers, the lengths people can go to in order to protect a relationship even if it’s toxic. I can’t commend Jay enough for how well he did all of this. Kudos to Kirt Graves too. I know well from TJ Klune’s Green Creek series that Kirt can handle a large cast of characters and high emotional impact. Kirt is perfection here handling the emotional rollercoaster without sending it over the top. His performance adds perfectly to what Jay had on the page. I highly recommend Straight Boy by Jay Bell, just make sure you’re ready for the ride. Interview Transcript - Julian Winters, Kim Fielding & Venona Keyes, S.A. Stovall This transcript was made possible by our community on Patreon. You can get information on how to join them at patreon.com/biggayfictionpodcast. Interview with Julian Winters Jeff: We are at the LA Times Festival of Books with Julian Winters. Julian: Hi. Jeff: Who I’ve just had a major fanboy moment over. Julian: I had fanboy moments. Jeff: Okay. We kinda both had the fanboy moment. Julian: Yes, yes. It is equal. Jeff: Because I had to get him to sign my “Running with Lions.” Podcast listeners know that was one of my favorite books of last year. Julian: Thank you. Jeff: And you’ve got a little sneak peek… Julian: I do. Jeff: Right now of “How To Be Remy Cameron,” which comes out September 10th. Julian: Yes, yes. September 10th, yes. Jeff: Tell us what this is about. Julian: Remy is a very personal book. It’s about an out and proud teen in high school, who has always felt like he’s known himself until he has this AP lit course. And one of the final grades he has to write an essay about who am I and it’s like the make or break essay. He’s trying to get into Emory University, and he needs this course in order to get there. And so, he has this kind of panic mode of, “Okay, but who am I?” Because he’s always been defined by, “Oh, he’s the gay kid who came out at 14,” or, “Oh, he’s one of five black students that go to our school,” or “Oh, he’s the big brother to this character,” and he’s just all these labels he wears all the time. He’s, “This is who I am.” But then he starts to realize, “Is that all I am and do these labels really define exactly who Remy Cameron is?” So, it’s kinda an exploration of what labels mean to us, but it also has a great family dynamic. A couple of secret mystery parts I can’t tell you about but there’s a lot of guessing games going on in it. And of course, it wouldn’t be me if I didn’t have like a dorky romance in there. So, that’s in there too. Jeff: A dorky romance? I like that because that’s… Julian: Yes, that’s exactly what I promise you. It’s so geeky, it’s so dorky. Jeff: That’s kind of what “Lions” was as well for sure. That’s a good label for it. How would you say that your writing has evolved from first book to second? Julian: Oh, it’s a lot. A lot. With the first book, I just kinda wanted to write the feel-good story, and that was my goal, and touching on certain issues throughout the book. And it also was written in third person and “Remy’s” written in first person. I’ve never, not even when I was like a small child, wrote in first person. I love reading books like that, but I thought, I just can’t do that, it’s just too personal. And so, it was a challenge doing that, but it was a lot of fun. And “Remy,” like I said, it’s very personal, so exploring parts of myself and things that I see throughout, you know, our community and things like that. It really helped me grow as a writer to really say, Okay, you can challenge yourself and you can fail at it, but you can also improve. And that was great. So, to fail, I struggled so much in the beginning, but to have that under my belt now, it’s I think I could write a lot of different stories. Jeff: So, you think you’ll visit first again sometimes? Julian: Oh, yeah, yes, yes. The next book I’m working on, first might be where I’m stuck now. I think this might be my calling. I don’t know. Jeff: Okay. I could tell you, first is a nice place to be. Julian: Yeah, it is. Jeff: What are some elements of this book that are so personal to you? Julian: Growing up. So, I grew up in Upstate New York where I was one of five black students at my school. And then when we moved to Georgia, I was one of 400 that went to my school. So, it’s very personal in the sense of, I went through a lot of phases of am I too gay? Am I black enough? Am I too perfect as a friend? Am I good enough friend? A lot of things that I went through, Remy goes through in the book. It also explores my love for a lot of geeky things and how for a while I wouldn’t let that define me because I thought, “Oh, no, this is bad, people are gonna make fun of me.” And Remy goes through that because he had a lot of geeky moments, but it’s almost like he’s scared to show them now that he knows that these are the things that I’m defined by. Jeff: I love that you point out the geeky thing because I saw on your Instagram earlier today of the comic books that you read into here at the Festival. Julian: Listen, I almost had to leave, you know, our booth just to go, you know, bow down at the comic book booth and just say, “Listen, thank you. I love it.” Jeff: Now, let’s talk about “Lions” for a second because you’ve had an amazing year. I mean, you started out of the gate that the book was blurbed by Becky Albertalli. Julian: Yeah. Jeff: And now, just within the last week or two, you’ve won an award for it. So, tell us a little bit about that. Julian: It’s been a wild journey because, first of all, like, I never thought I’d meet Becky Albertalli, I never thought I’d talk to her, I never thought, you know, I would become friends with her. And then just meeting all the other people along the way that I’ve met and growing in that area… I always felt like I was the kid sitting at the table in the corner where I peek over at all the cool kids and say, “Yeah, I’m never sitting at that table,” but it’s been kinda really awesome being taken in by so many different people and I never thought I’d be an award-winning author. Like, I wanted to write the book for queer kids to enjoy, to see themselves and know that, you know, you’re not some other subcategory, you’re just a normal person. It’s just that…this is just a part of you, it doesn’t define you. And to win an award, I broke down crying. It wasn’t something I was expecting going into this because my journey has always been about the reader but to have something for myself was amazing. It still is amazing. I’m not over it. I guess I won’t be over it until I actually hold the award in my hands and say, “This happened.” Jeff: This actually happened. And the cover too, which was a stunning cover, also won. Julian: Yes, the cover won for best cover. And that was so great for me in the sense that I love our cover designer, C.B. Messer. She’s amazing. She reads all the books cover to cover. And so, she knows these characters, she knows their stories, and what she did with that cover just blew me away. What she did with the “Remy” cover, I’m still in complete awe of just how well she knows these characters. Jeff: When we talked back last year, the book had hardly been out. Julian: Yeah. Jeff: How’s the reader response been to it? Julian: It’s been amazing. Today just alone, just so many people will walk by and say, “Oh my gosh, ‘Running with Lions,’ I’ve heard of that book.” And I’m just like, “What? Of all the books that came out in 2018, you heard of that book?” The response has been amazing. Going to the events and having people walk up to me and say, “Thank you for writing this book because I played soccer all my life, but there was never a queer soccer book.” Or, “Thank you for writing this because there weren’t a lot of books with bisexual main characters, or characters that were gay and Muslim, or black characters, or whatever.” It’s been amazing, the response I get. I get teary-eyed every time. I’m like, “I’m not strong enough for this, we can’t talk about this.” But it’s also been so cool to know that I’m helping someone see themselves because I didn’t always get that opportunity growing up. So, to know I’m getting to be a part of their journey, it’s just been amazing. Jeff: Fantastic. And what have you thought of the fair, of the festival? Because it’s your first time up here. Julian: Yes, this is my first time here for the festival. And I was talking to another friend about it because I went to YALLWEST last year. YALLWEST is this…it’s nice little corner and then this is like a whole city. Like, I get lost every time I go either to the bathroom or get something to drink. But it’s amazing because it brings so many different publishers, so many different books together, so many different genres, so many different kinds of authors are here. And that’s the amazing part to me, just to know how influential books are because there are people everywhere all the time, stacks of books in their arms. And you don’t really get to see that in, like, media, like how impactful books are, how much people really enjoy the art that we put out there. So, this has just been amazing to watch how excited people get when they see the books. Jeff: Yeah, it’s been very cool here. So, thank you so much for hanging out with us. Julian: Thank you. You know, I love you guys. Jeff: Best of luck on “How To Be Remy Cameron,” coming out September 10th. Interview with Kim Fielding and Venona Keyes Jeff: We are at the Los Angeles Times Festival of Books with Kim Fielding and Venona Keyes. Thanks for being here. Kim: Thanks so much. Venona: Thanks for asking. Jeff: We’re excited to have you both here. And now, Kim, of course, within the past couple of weeks, we’ve raved about the “The Spy’s Love Song” and the new “Dreamspun Desires.” Where did the inspiration for this book come from? Because it was so good. Kim: I think a big part of the inspiration came from my travels in Eastern Europe. So, you know, thinking about the way things used to be in Eastern Europe and how things are changing, plus politics as they’re happening right now. And so, yeah, I think that was the main thing. Jeff: What kind of research did you have to do to develop your spy and your rock star who becomes kind of…along on this mission without even knowing he’s on it? Kim: I didn’t have to do too much research on the spy part or on the travel part, but rock stars and music is not something I know anything or have any talent or anything else about, so that was where I had to do most of my research because I don’t know what it’s like. I don’t know what it’s like to be a rock star. I can’t even sing. Jeff: Does that mean you what it’s like to be a spy? Kim: Hmm, I’m not…I can’t divulge. Venona: You have kids. Kim: Yeah, I have kids. Jeff: And you wrote song lyrics too? Kim: I did. Yeah, I know. And it was really fun. And then in the audio version, my narrator Drew Bacca sang them, which was so cool. And it’s like, this is the closest I’m ever gonna get to being a songwriter. And it’s so much fun to listen to. And I can pretend, you know, like, I’m the next thing. Jeff: Which actually raises the question, did you give him an idea of what the melody for it was or did he just kind of make that up? Kim: I had no melody in mind. I didn’t know he was gonna sing. When I write a book, I’m sorry narrators, I don’t think about what I’m doing to my narrators. And so, sometimes I torture them, and I wasn’t even thinking about a narrator singing it. So, that was his idea and I was so pleased. Jeff: And this is a little different in “Dreamspuns” as well and I noted it in my review that you are a single point of view here. Did you go into it deliberately that way or just kind of organically discovered it was the way to go? Kim: It made more sense for this book because there’s some surprises about our spy character and I think it’s a lot more fun if we kinda discover the surprises along with the other character rather than knowing right from the start. So, you know, for some books, the dual point of view works really well, but for this one, I think this works well. Jeff: Yeah, I totally agree on that. Now, this is part of a bigger series that’s happening within the “Dreamspuns.” Kim: It is. Jeff: Tell us a little bit about the series overall. Kim: Sure. So, this series is called “Stars from Peril” and this is the first book in it. The second book comes out next month, and that’s “Redesigning Landry Bishop.” And the third book, I just finished the first round of edits on. It’ll be out in October and that one is “Drawing the Prince.” We went over several titles on that one. And so, what all three of them have in common is the main characters are from the same small town in Nebraska called Peril, Nebraska. And all three main characters have made it big in some way. So, our first guy is a rock star, our second guy is kind of a Martha Stewart type, and the third guy is an artist. And so, they’ve made it big in the world and they meet someone. And so, you can read each of them as a standalone and in any order you want to, but you’ll kind of see the characters appearing a little bit in one another’s story. Jeff: It didn’t even click for me that it was the name of the town too because peril plays into their own peril. Kim: Exactly. And I honestly cheated a little bit on that. There is a real town, a tiny little town, I think there’s like 60 people in it, in Nebraska called Hazard, Nebraska. So, Peril. Jeff: Peril, Hazard, it works. Kim: And it’s a great name. Jeff: Now, people may be wondering, why do we have both of them here together? Well, Venona and Kim also co-write. Tell us about that book. Venona: “Running Blind.” I will tell you this came about some years ago in Portland at our Dreamspinner meetup and she pulls me aside. Now, you have to understand that I was such a fan of Kim. I love “Brute”, I loved all of her stuff. And then she’s talking to me and I’m like, “You sure you’re talking to me because, you know, I don’t, like, co-write. I’m really bad at, you know, doing it by myself.” And she goes, “Oh, yeah, I heard on NPR…” And that’s how it started. Because Peter Sagal who’s out of Chicago hosts, “Wait, wait, Don’t Tell Me.” He is a running guide for blind people for marathons.” So, she had the idea and we came up with “Running Blind.” Kim: And the reason why Venona was such a perfect choice is because, unlike me, she does triathlons. So, I didn’t have to do the research on marathon running. Venona: No, or running guides either. Stuff like, “Yeah. That’s your department,” I’m like, “All right, we can do this.” And it’s a wonderful book and we decided that we wanted to have a second story because in the beginning, and it’s not giving a spoiler away, is Kyle and Matt who have been friends, who went to college together, were friends, became lovers, and now they’re in a comfortable pattern, and they really love each other but as brothers rather than lovers. So, when something happens to Kyle, Kyle breaks it off and he goes, “You gotta go do stuff.” And Matt’s reluctant, but this story is about Kyle and how he deals with the things that have happened in his life. So, the next book that we’re writing, the working title is “Playing,” is Matt’s story about how he finds romance after the breakup. Jeff: And when do we get to see that one come out? TBD. Venona: TBD. Kim: Well, that one is still in progress. Venona: It’s still in progress. It’s now in my hands. And so, we switch back and forth when we write, and I need to get it back to Kim. So, hopefully soon. Jeff: And you’ve got some other co-writing coming too? You’re working with Shira Anthony as well. Venona: Shira Anthony, it is another story. It’s actually about a farmer and a city boy. So, that one is coming up soon and that’s an honor of a friend of ours from GRL. So, we’re writing a story about a farmer which he is and who’s not out and a city boy who is. So, it’s a lot of fun. We already have the outline and we’re just getting started on writing that as well too. Jeff: Very cool. Anything else coming up we should know about? Venona: Yes. “How to Become a K-pop Idol,” I am writing that one by myself. We might get a co-writer on that one, you never know. But that one is, if people aren’t familiar with this, I love Korean culture, a lot of Asian culture, Japanese, Korean. I’m learning Korean. I’ve been a K-pop fan since 2009 proudly with the Big Bang. Jeff: Before it was cool. Venona: Before it was cool. And my bias is right now, because Big Bang, if you don’t know in Korea, you have to go in for military service mandatory by the time you’re 30. So, a lot of the K-pop idols are going in. So, new ones are coming up. So, the third gens right now is BTS, if you’ve not heard of Bangtan Sonyeondan, BTS, they’re really big. They’re the band that I’m following right now. Jeff: Very cool. Anything coming up for you, Kim, a part from the Peril series? Kim: Yes, start of the Peril series at the end of this month, so April 30th. I’ve got a new novella coming out. So, if people who are following my “Bureau” series, there’ll be a new novella in that. And I wanna push that because I give all my royalties for that to Doctors Without Borders. So, this is the fourth story in that series, but you can read them as standalones too. Venona: And they’re awesome stories too, I love those. Kim: Thanks. Jeff: And what have you guys thought of the festival? Venona: You know, this is the first time I’ve been here, and it is awesome. There’s just so many people here, there’s so many different books, and you get to browse them all at the same time instead of in a little bookstore somewhere. So, yeah. Kim: And it’s been a lot of fun just kinda hanging out with everybody, LA is fun. So, it’s been a lot of fun. Jeff: Very cool. Well, thanks for hanging out with us for a few minutes. Kim: Thanks so much. Venona: Thanks for asking us. Interview with S.A. Stovall Jeff: And we’re at the LA Times Festival of Books with S.A. Stovall. Thanks so much for being here with us. S.A.: Well, thank you for having me. It’s super exciting. Jeff: Now, you’re the author of “Vice City,” it’s currently two books in the series. Tell us a little bit about what the series is? S.A.: It’s a crime thriller like a noir style. Ironically, if you’ve ever read “Sin City,” which is a graphic novel, it’s kind of similar to that. I used to work at a courthouse and I got a lot of green, was an attorney and all that. I don’t do that anymore because it’s a little depressing, but I used some of my experience in that to write the series. And I really like redemption stories and like criminals turning it around. That’s what I did in the courts is I helped a lot of drug addicts get to rehab and turn their life around. And so, I’m really into that kind of story. So, the series follows an ex-mobster who like, you know, leaves the mob and then becomes a private detective, and then, you know, shenanigans ensue. Jeff: Shenanigans ensue? S.A.: Yeah. Jeff: And he’s consistent through the series? S.A.: He’s the main viewpoint. There’s a romance a subplot in which he falls in love with like a police academy cadet, and obviously, that’s his in to the police and you know, again, more shenanigans ensue that way. In the sequel book that just came out, one of the subplots is that a police officer suspects the main character’s actual identity, that he had connections to the mob and used to be a mob enforcer. And so, he’s out to prove that it’s him. And so, you know, it’s a thriller story so it’s got lots of thrills. Jeff: Mystery, suspense, thrills, it’s all there. S.A.: Yes, exactly. Jeff: What got you into starting to write these books? S.A.: So, I had a friend who really likes Dreamspinner Press and I used to write just books like short stories for my D&D group, because they really liked, you know, fantasy, all that kind of stuff. So, I wrote short story fantasies and she was like, “My God, you should write me a Dreamspinner-style novel, like, that’s what you should write for me.” And I was like, “Okay, I don’t know if I can do it as good as all these other people, but I’ll try.” And I wrote “Vice City” for her specifically. I even put that in the dedication. I’m like, “It’s just for you.” I didn’t think that it would go anywhere because, you know, I was just like, “Okay.” But I got an agent after I wrote this and then the agent sold it to Dreamspinner and then they published it for the DSP line because that’s where they do genre stuff. Jeff: It doesn’t necessarily have the romance in it, right? S.A.: Yeah. Well, mine does but it’s not the focal point. The focal point is the, you know, mystery and the mobster story. So, I was very surprised. I didn’t think it would go anywhere but it totally went somewhere. So, every time somebody is like, “Oh, I don’t know if I should write a novel,” there’s a piece of me that’s like, “Man, I just wrote that novel willy-nilly. So, you should try, you should do it. You should try.” Now admittedly, you know, I was writing before I wrote this because I wrote other stories and short stories, but still, if you’re thinking about it, you should just do it, you know. Don’t even think to yourself, “Oh, nobody will read this,” because I kinda thought, “Nobody’s gonna read a crime noir.” You know what I’m saying? Like, I was like, “That’s old school, nobody reads that kind of stuff anymore.” But no, people do, and people like it. So, I was really happy. Jeff: And you noted that the second book just came out. Do you have plans for third? S.A.: Yeah. Jeff: What is yet to come? S.A.: I’m about halfway through the third book and it’s a true series in the sense that it could go for as long as I want it or, you know, that kind of thing. It’s not like a trilogy or a set thing like, “Oh, something needs to happen.” But, you know, as a private investigator, anything can happen, you know, all sorts of shenanigans can ensue. Jeff: Very true, very true. S.A.: But there is a connecting theme. The whole reason that it’s the vice enforcer is that the mob that he used to work for was the vice family, and they’re still around by book three so you can kinda see the, like, he’s trying to take them down one by one. And so, I guess I could be limited to and then it got the whole vice family and then the series is over. But, you know, there’s that connecting thread too. Jeff: Now, that you’ve been writing in this genre, do you wanna expand out to other genres or is noir thriller kind of your sweet spot? S.A.: Well, it’s just a thing that I like a lot, that I thought, you know, nobody likes this anymore, but I like it. I wrote “Modern Gladiator” which is just a pure romance for Dreamspinner. It was a sports romance with UFC fighter. Jeff: Oh, cool. S.A.: I, a few years back, was dating a guy who was in the UFC. And so, I just used all of that experience to write a sports romance. And I know a lot about, you know, wrestling and all that kind of stuff just from him. And I put a lot of that kind of information in the book and it literally just came out about two weeks ago. Yeah, “Modern Gladiator” came out. And then I do a lot of fantasy and science fiction on the side as well. So, I mean, all sorts of things, all crazy things. Jeff: Very cool. Now you’re also an artist? S.A.: Yes, that’s true. Jeff: While she’s been here doing her signings and such, she’s also been doing caricatures of people who get their book signed. And so, we had this one done of us. It is so freaking adorable. How did this get started for you? S.A.: I’ve just always drawn things. I like doodling. I was really into comic books at a point in my life. I mean, so many comic books and manga. I mean, anything that was drawn and kind of that like storybook style with the panel, super loved. But I didn’t really intend for it to go anywhere. I went and got my history degree, I got a law degree. I wasn’t like, “Man, I need to study art.” But I did at least doodle enough that I was like, “I’m mildly good, you know.” And when I went to my first ever book fair, I thought, “I can’t just be the schmoe who’s standing in a booth trying to peddle their book, because I’m gonna be like 50 other people in the road doing the exact same thing. I should try and do something that’s at least enticing or to get people to read my stuff.” And I figured, “Hey, I could try a little caricature, and while I’m drawing them, they can read my book. And if it’s enticing enough, you know, they’ll buy the book, or they’ll feel guilty enough to buy the book, you know, I don’t know, whatever gets them to buy the book.” And a lot of people usually give me comments right away. Like, the first line in “Vice City,” everybody always comments, well, not everybody but like 80% of people. The first line is, “Getting hit with a wrench hurts.” And, so many people either laugh or comment like, “Oh my God, what a good line,” and I’m like, “Yeah.” And the first chapter in “Vice City” is an interrogation of that police cadet. So, Pierce, the mobster, is interrogating this guy who he thinks is a police mole. So, it’s really intense, you know, high stakes going on. I really like that first chapter and it usually hooks people. So, they read that first chapter while I’m drawing them and, bam, that’s my sales strategy. Don’t steal it. I’m joking, everybody can use it. Jeff: It’s all her’s. S.A.: Anybody can do it. Jeff: But the key is, like, I could never draw. There’s no way I’d do this, I’d have to find another hook. S.A.: I’ve been successful with it. People typically like that. And the caricatures are free. I just give them to people. So, even if they don’t buy the book, you know, it’s fine. Jeff: And it’s awesome watching her do them. We watched as she did ours. It’s like, “Oh my God, there we are just manifesting on the page.” It was very cool. Well, thank you so much for hanging out with us a little bit. One last question, what have you thought of the fair? S.A.: It’s good. There are a lot of people here though. I mean, just thousands of people all over the place. Going to the food trucks was fun, although not during lunchtime. There’s like a mile-long line from here to the sun and back. Nobody wants to do that. But the food trucks are good, the people seem to be really nice, and I don’t know, it’s just a good time. Jeff: Excellent. Well, thank you so much for spending a little bit of time with us. S.A.: Thank you for having me again, like, super awesome.

Jeff & Will talk about their upcoming trip to the 2019 LA Times Festival of Books. They also discuss two series they’ve been watching: Comedy Central’s The Other Two and Freeform’s Pretty Little Liars: The Perfectionists. Books reviewed this week include Kim Fielding’s The Spy’s Love Song, Ari McKay’s Take Two and Erin McLellan’s Clean Break. Jeff interviews Erin McLellan about Clean Break, the second book in her Farm College series, and about why it’s important for her to tell stories based in her home state of Oklahoma. They also talk about her Love Life series, what got her started writing, her author influences and the TV she likes to binge watch. Complete shownotes for episode 182 are at BigGayFictionPodcast.com. -------- Here’s the text of Jeff’s book reviews: The Spy’s Love Song by Kim FieldingRock star and secret agent on a mission to a foreign country to topple a dictator all wrapped up in a Dreamspun Desires package. That combination pushed all of my romantic suspense buttons and I had no choice but to pick up this book. And I loved it every bit as much as I thought I would. I was in tropey goodness heaven with the rock star thing, a bodyguard vibe plus lovers on the run and some occasional forced proximity. Jaxon Powers is a jaded rock star who’s at the end of a long tour. After waking up in a hotel room barely remembering what happened the night before, he might also be ready for a change in lifestyle. He gets a lot more than he bargained for when his manager brings him to a meeting with the State Department. It seems the dictator that runs the small country of Vasnytsia is a fan and wants Jaxon to perform a private concert as well as a large outdoor one for a worker’s festival. The U.S. wants Jaxon to do this because it’s a chance to improve US relations with the Russia-supported dictator. The only person going with Jaxon on the trip is secret agent Reid Stanfill. Besides keeping Jaxon safe, Reid’s got an agenda that has global ramifications. I fell in love with this book right from the beginning. Kim plays with expectations from the beginning. While Jaxon appears to be the spoiled rock star we quickly find that’s not what he wants to be. He’s a small town boy, doing what he loves to do but he wants more substance to the way he’s living. The trip to Vasnytsia does exactly that as his world view gets a complete makeover. Not only does Jaxon end up traveling without the entourage he’s used to, as Reid’s mission goes sideways the two end up on the run. Reid’s mission is to try to destabilize the country and force elections and that makes him an enemy of the state. Despite his fear, Jaxon won’t leave Reid to fend for himself. Jaxon knows his celebrity can protect both of them and he sticks by Reid even as Reid tries to force the star to safety. Through all of the crazy events that could result in either of them dying, Jaxon and Reid manage to start a romance. Reid tries to keep it from beginning since they’re in a country where homosexuality is illegal but they give in to their passions. That’s just the beginning as they share stories about their pasts, which only endears them more to each other. The mix between the romance and suspense is perfect, giving our guys time to fall in love even while things around them go crazy. I liked that Kim avoided the usual Dreamspun scenario of having alternating points of view. Everything in the story is Jaxon, which works perfectly so we don’t know Reid’s mission or anything else too early. It makes for a very snappy read going on the roller coaster that Jaxon experiences. Kim brings Vasnytsia to life through its people. It starts with the guides taking Jaxon around the country, giving him peek behind the propaganda. As he meets fans who must covertly speak to him as it wouldn’t be proper for anyone to talk with the American he begins to understand why Reid’s mission is so important. Ultimately it’s these people who shelter Reid and Jaxon and help complete his mission–with a particularly awesome assist from Jaxon. Drew Bacca does a great job on the audiobook, including having to sing a couple of Jaxon’s songs. This is the first book in the “Stars From Peril” series that Kim has in the Dreamspun line. The second book, Redesigning Landry Bishop, comes out in May and I’m already looking forward to it.  -------- Clean Break by Erin McLellanI almost didn’t pick this book up because I couldn’t imagine reading a book that included the characters taking care of Madagascar hissing cockroaches. I’m not a fan of bugs and the trigger warning page discusses more about the bugs than anything else. However, I’m glad I listened to the re-assurances I wouldn’t be creeped out because this is a terrific book–and the bugs really are a non-thing. This book, the second in Erin’s “Farm College” series, throws together Connor Blume and Travis Bedford–two guys who very much don’t like each other in the aftermath of an awkward, failed hookup. As their final college term begins, Connor and Travis are taking Entomology 101 and because the professor likes students to sit alphabetically, they’re next to each other and end up becoming class partners. Their dislike for each other radiates from them during that first class. Connor’s OCD and anxiety flare up just being near the guy, who he’s still wildly attracted to and wants to have a real discussion with. Travis has the attraction too but carries the anger from their previous hookup. It only gets worse as they get the assignment that they’ll be caring for Madagascar hissing cockroaches for the semester or that they’ll have to answer discussion questions together. It doesn’t take long for the sparks of dislike to turn into sparks of desire and they end up spending time after class in a storage closet making out. Neither of them is particularly happy that they’re giving in to their desires, which makes the scenes cuter and hotter. Travis wants the fussy farmer and Connor very much wants the stand-offish English major. Even as their make out sessions start to cool their hatred, they realize they’re constrained by time. At graduation, Connor is set to take over management of his parent’s farm, even though he doesn’t necessarily want that. Meanwhile, Travis can’t wait to get out of the small town for his legal aid internship and then on to law school. The guys have their futures mapped out and there’s no space for the other. That doesn’t stop them from getting emotionally entangled. Erin does a terrific job of bringing these two together. As they move their hookups to the bedroom, Travis discovers he likes Connor’s controlling side and gives himself over to it. Connor though never takes advantage, making sure that he’s always got Travis’s consent and that Travis enjoys himself. That continues as Travis reveals he’d like to be spanked. Both guys discover this is exactly what they need. Beyond the sex though, their efforts to not get too attached aren’t helped by their post-sex talks. Travis usually wants Connor to tell him a story and it’s here that he opens up bit by bit about his anxiety, his OCD and his pre-determined future. There’s so much going on for him, as a reader I wanted to wrap him in a hug and do whatever I could to ease the load he carried. Travis talks a lot too and over time we learn what makes him so driven–it turns out he lost one of his dreams due to an accident and he doesn’t want to let anything or anyone cost him this one. Just a she was great at bringing them together, Erin tears the guys apart just as expertly. It’s a tough go as Connor and Travis force themselves apart as graduation nears. Erin does a number on the characters as they emotionally hurt themselves and each other as they keep to their plans. Both guys want to talk to the other so badly and yet they’ve promised not too. For Connor, this is particularly bad for his OCD. Of course, this is a romance, so all must end happy. Thankfully how Erin gets the guys back together his as satisfying as everything she did earlier in the book. There is a way for them to be together–it just takes time for them to get there. -------- Interview Transcript - Erin McLellan Jeff: Welcome, Erin, to the podcast. Erin: Hi. Thanks for having me. Jeff: Very excited to have you here. You’re a new-to-me author and I just finished reading “Clean Break,” which I have to tell you, I adored so much. I’m reviewing it right before we get into the interview segment I’ll have reviewed it to kinda tell everybody about it. Erin: Yay, thank you. Jeff: It is the second book in your “Farm College” Series. So before we dive into “Clean Break,” tell us more about what the “Farm College” Series is about. Erin: Okay. So it’s just two books so far like you said and they are set in a fictional college in Western Oklahoma. And I would say kind of the overarching themes are… Since they’re college stories, they’re new adult that’s kind of coming of age and self-discovery, finding your authentic self, finding a home is kind of a big one. I think that’s kind of important at that age. You’ve moved out of your parent’s house or wherever you grew up for a lot of people and kinda figuring out what is home, what is family, that kind of thing. So those types of themes are kind of follow both books. They’re both kind of angsty to be honest though “Controlled Burn,” more so than “Clean Break” actually. Jeff: Oh, my goodness. Erin: So be prepared. But, yeah, and I think in terms of… The setting is really important to me at least as the author and those books is important to me. I’m from Oklahoma. I live in Alaska now, but I’m from Oklahoma. And it’s important to me to write stories that are set in Oklahoma that have, you know, LGBTQIA+ characters in Oklahoma. And I know as somebody that reads a lot of romance, I don’t see that very often. I don’t see romance set there or it might be… I have seen it where it’s, you know, characters that are like, escaping Oklahoma which certainly is the case for a lot of people, but it’s also the case that people live and love, and make their lives there. And I kinda wanna show that. Jeff: Does a farm college like this exist in Oklahoma? Is it based on a real place? Erin: No. Kind of I guess. A lot of the kind of small details mirror Oklahoma State which was my alma mater for undergrad, but Oklahoma State is so much bigger than the college that I created. So Farm College is kind of a smaller college in Western Oklahoma that I’ve created, but in terms of being, you know, having a strong agriculture program, but also kind of having this liberal arts situation that’s going on and a pretty vibrant LGBTQIA community, I’ve kind of made most of that up. So… Jeff: And I agree that we don’t see, I mean, besides books set in Oklahoma, really the more rural settings kinda, it’s always escaping from those places. And I like that you kind of built a place as if this is what you’d like to see even if it doesn’t quite exist there now. Erin: Right. And I think it’s kind of funny when I started writing “Controlled Burn.” It was pre-2016, right? And I kind of had this, you know, I kind of had this idea that it’s getting better, right? It’s looking up for lots of communities and I’m not sure if that’s necessarily the case anymore. I hope it will be and I hope it is eventually. But, you know, there’s good and bad, I think, about places like Oklahoma and Kansas, and Texas. And, you know, Oklahoma is really special to me. It’s really important to me. Kansas is the same, but there’s also problems and, you know, I wanna kinda write those stories. And I also, thinking about Oklahoma or Texas probably more so, a lot of the romances that I’ve read that are set there are like, ranch, you know, the cowboys, the farmers which there is kind of a farmer in “Clean Break.” But there’s a lot of people that live in Oklahoma and in Texas, in Kansas that aren’t cowboys. So I wanted to tell that story too. Jeff: Right. And you really hinted that a little bit with some of the dialogue between Travis and Connor in “Clean Break” too as they kind of talk about the difference between cowboy and more the farmer type that Connor and his family are. Erin: Right. Jeff: And so, as we kinda move this direction, tell us what “Clean break” is about and kind of who Travis and Connor are. Erin: Right. So “Clean Break” is about Travis and Connor. Travis is…he’s the best friend in “Controlled Burn.” So if you read “Controlled Burn,” you see quite a bit of him. He’s an English major. He’s from Houston, Texas, very ambitious. He’s got these kind of life plans and nothing’s gonna slow him down, right? He wants to go to law school. He’s got an internship after for the summer. He’s planning to move to Saint Louis eventually to work at this legal aid charity. He has this very, you know, set goals and he’s also kind of a unique, quirky, funny character to me. And then you have Connor who comes in and I don’t know if I would say at the beginning of the book, it’s more like pre-book before the book happens, they have a little bit of a failed hookup in a lot of ways. Some misunderstandings and so, they don’t like each other very much. And then in the first chapter, they get paired together as class partners in a class. And Connor is a farm boy. He’s kind of a townie, right? He’s from Elkville which is the city that’s it’s set in. He’s expected to take over the family farm and so, he’s got this, you know, he kind of his future plans are set, right? He doesn’t have a say over them and he’s… I have a big soft spot in my heart for him. He’s got anxiety, he has OCD. I really wanted to kind of write against the archetype of the like, lackadaisical cowboy or even like, the kind of the hard cowboy or, you know, that kind of archetype that I had in my head. I wanted to write a sensitive farm boy who’s in therapy and, you know, it doesn’t really match some of the people or the characters that I have seen written that way. And kind of the main issue between them, first is that they don’t like each other, but they’re attracted to each other, right? But the kind of the main two things that I wanted to do with the book is I wanted to write a complex authentic characters that are really well-rounded and hopefully, I accomplish that. And then the other thing that I really wanted to do was kind of write to people that are heading towards their future which is graduation and then, you know, the future beyond. And then their futures don’t mesh. There’s not really a way to come together at the end of graduation. They’re moving in different directions and I think that’s a really universal thing for people in college that are dating and dating seriously… do you compromise your future for somebody else? Do you change it? How do you make it work? So those are kind of the two things that I really wanted to hit on and of course, there’s, you know, there’s some kink that happens in the book and kind of self-discovery with that especially on Connors’ part. So there’s a lot going on, but those two things. The characterization and the conflict there with their futures not meshing are the two things I really wanted to hit. Jeff: And I think you did them both, I mean, really well. This book has so much going on in it and yet it never…the story also never gets way down either with the weight of everything that’s kind of moving around here. Erin: Thank you. Jeff: And really, you started them off as enemies who sort of move to friends to sort of get to lovers. Erin: Right. Jeff: Just that progression was so fun to watch unfold as they both pick at each other and then also help each other grow at the same time. It’s like, they lift each other up and kinda tear each other down at the same time. Erin: Right. And I hope that that is realistic. I think people… Because in a lot of ways they are kind of mean to each other at certain points and people can be mean to each other in real life. Especially, they’re not very old, you know, they’re 21, 22. So they kinda make stupid mistakes sometimes and say things that can be hurtful and then have to figure out how to make it better. Jeff: And I think with Connor too, you talked about writing against the archetypes and just having kinda the anxiety plus the OCD. And being, you know, a young gay man in that setting really just sets up so much for him in that situation. Erin: Right. Yeah. He has a lot going on. He’s bi actually and… Jeff: Right. I’m sorry. You’re right. Yes. Erin: And so, kind of a lot. I mean, it’s just a lot and I think it’s a lot for him to kind of deal with all at the same time. Jeff: What was your research on the mental health side of it to kind of figure out what traits to weave into his personality? Erin: So I did a lot of research and I had some readers too that read it for me. One of the main things that I really looked at was kind of the myths especially with OCD, kind of the myths surrounding OCD. I think a lot of people think it’s just, you know, a cleanliness thing or even an organizational thing where they, you know, people with OCD have an impulse to organize or clean. And that’s not really how it presents for a lot of people. A lot people have intrusive thoughts which he has or, you know, they have checking where he checks the expiration dates on food and he can’t kind of stop doing that even though he knows he shouldn’t be doing it, and it’s not healthy for him to do. And so, I did a lot of research about the myths and the different ways that it presents for people and kind of the hardships that it causes them. And I also really wanted to make sure that I kind of made it clear. It’s something that he’ll always deal with, right? It’s not going away and so, it’s really… I did a lot of research on how to manage it, how, you know, how to kind of continue life dealing with a mental health problem like that. Jeff: Yeah. I just… So often I wanted to just give him a hug when he was starting to lapse into it. It’s like, “Oh, I’m so sorry this is happening.” What you did through the black moments and I don’t wanna give spoilers for folks who, you know, need to read the book. But what you did to the black moments for both Connor and Travis as they dealt with their emotions and for Connor how those emotions kinda manifest themselves in his OCD was really just, I really liked seeing two young adults kinda come to grapple with all of that. Erin: Yeah. And I think it’s pretty normal when you’re more stressed, right? Or when there’s more and more stress for, you know, the OCD to kind of build on itself. The same with anxiety like, whenever I am really stressed about my anxiety, it’s gonna be worse about small things, you know, you can kind of blow them out of proportion. I know I do that and so, I was kind of trying to show that how it’s like as things got more stressful for him with graduation moving and with kind of this relationship with Travis, that’s not going away he wants it to go. It does kind of snowball for him and it kinda snowballs for Travis too just in different ways because he doesn’t, you know, he doesn’t have anxiety or OCD of course, but, you know, he struggles just kind of the same way. Jeff: Yeah. When you were talking about with this books about you left out one of its major points. Erin: The bugs? Jeff: That is the inclusion of the the hissing cockroaches. Where did that idea even come from? Erin: So I knew I wanted to put them in a class together and I wanted them to be class partners. But Travis is an English major and Connor is agriculture sciences, agribusiness major. And so, I knew it had to be like a gen ed class for at least one of them. And so, I really started thinking about the gen ed class that I had taken as an English major whenever I was an undergrad trying to figure out what class would make sense. And then I realized that I actually had taken an ag class that was Entomology 101. And I loved it, I, you know, I held like, tarantulas and I held millipedes. And I could see myself being that like, weird bug girl a little bit. I just loved it. And so, that’s kinda how I decided to put them in an entomology class. And it’s funny because, I mean, I do think that college is one of those times to take the weird class and do the weird thing. And so, I think it kind of made sense there and I also felt like, I gave a degree of what kind of humor and lightness I thought it would to the story. But I realize now that a lot of readers maybe don’t like bugs. So it’s something that’s like a little distracting to some people. When I had took the entomology class, we had an assignment where we had that exact assignment with the Madagascar hissing cockroaches where we had to take them home and observe them. And so, you know, for an entire semester, I had a Madagascar hissing cockroach in my dorm room with me. I never took it out of its box. I like, you know, I fed it, like, carrots through the little hole that it couldn’t get out and so, that would be fun to put that in the story. And I can tell you for the readers, the cockroaches do not escape ever. They never… There’s no, like, unexpected cockroach scenes. I promise. Jeff: Yeah. And I can vouch for that. There are no unexpected scenes and in fact, I had to check… I had to ask about that before I took the book to read and I’m like, “Bugs, I don’t know about that.” Erin: I know. I have put it in the trigger warnings for the book and on my website, it really does lay out kinda scene by scene where they’re at and kind of the degree that they’re on the page. And they’re not on the page that much. Jeff: No, they’re not and I never got squirmy reading it either because I really don’t like bugs. But I was totally fine with how this turned out. So… Erin: Yeah. I know. I don’t know why it hadn’t occurred to me that it would gross people out. At that point it was too late when it, like, finally hit me. I was like, “Well, I can’t do anything about it.” But I kind of thought that they were funny. Jeff: Well, I think it really fits with the whole ag culture of the college that of course, they’re gonna end up with bugs or whatever and have to learn about them. So it all meshed in together and like you said, there’s no point where they’re escaping or, you know, being gross. They’re just kind of there. Erin: Right. And students… Jeff: I like to, you know, those classes sometimes you take in high school where you’re having to take care of the doll for a week or whatever. And in this case you’re hanging out with a cockroach. So… Erin: Right. It’s kinda like a little pet for them for this semester. Jeff: So is there more plan for the Farm College Series? Erin: I have not kind of set plans. I do want to write a story for Alex. He’s in both books. He’s not in “Controlled Burn” for very much though his part is kind of important in “Controlled Burn.” He’s a friend of Connor’s really in “Clean Break” and I do wanna give him a story and I will. I’ll probably start writing that soon. Kind of be on that. I don’t know how much more I’ll write in the Farm College Series though I do wanna do a spin off that’s kind of several years in the future. So they’re not really in college anymore and I want to do an F/F romance for Desie and Lena. So I would start there for them. Jeff: Yay. Yeah. I would totally read that book because one of the things you did in “Clean Break” and I’m sure you established it back in “Controlled Burn” too, was just the tight community of friends that Travis and Connor both have, and even, like, the strong family presence of Connor’s family and how they support him. So it would be great to see more of all of that. Erin: Yeah. So… Yeah. And I definitely… I think I did a little bit more successfully in “Clean Break” for sure where they have very supportive families and they do have kind of a big wide friend group. And so, yeah, I’m glad that you like that, but I do want to do the F/F romance for Lena and Desie kind of. But Lena is quite young in this book. She’s 20 and so, I wanna give her a little bit of time to grow up, I guess. Jeff: Yeah. That’s cool. Now, you’ve got another series out there called “Love Life.” And tell us a little bit about what goes on in that series? Erin: Sure. So that’s also, they’re both male/male romances. Set in Oklahoma, Eastern Oklahoma for the first book, “Life on Pause.” They’re kind of small town romances there. The first one is about a guy that works at a homestead kind of prairie museum. They’re kind of common in Oklahoma where the people that work there have to dress in like, historical costumes of the time. So he works at that type of museum and then he is paired with a high school choir teacher. And it’s kind of them trying to fall in love and figure out how their relationship will work. It’s definitely kind of lighter in tone than the farm college series, but it’s still a little angsty. The second book in the series, “Life of Bliss,” is more novella link that’s a little short and it’s very tropey. It’s kind of two people that don’t like each other very much, but are fooling around kind of behind their friends’ backs. They agree to be fake boyfriends for a family wedding in Arkansas and Arkansas kind of, well, it has this… Historically in the area, it was the only state that didn’t have a waiting period for marriage licenses. Now, most of the states don’t, but back in the day, you know, they made you like, test for syphilis and all kind of stuffs. But extended the marriage license period. So Arkansas is kind of the place where people go for their shotgun weddings historically. So this is going back quite away, but in this book they go to a wedding in Arkansas, they get drunk at the wedding and basically, end up getting married themselves. It’s set in Eureka Springs, Arkansas for the wedding part and I don’t know if anybody would be familiar with that. But you can get married practically anywhere in Eureka Springs. It’s kind of an economy there. So it’s quite easy to get married and that’s what happens. So it’s kind of fake dating to accidental marriage. Jeff: Fake dating to accidental marriage. I like… Those are favorite tropes right there. Erin: Yeah. It’s a fun one, I think. Jeff: So what is your writing origin story? You’ve got these four books out. How did all this start? Erin: Well, I was a creative writing English major in undergrad, but then I ended up going to grad school for library and information studies. And I was a public librarian. And I had… I kind of had a lot of big changes in my life. I just graduated grad school. I just got married, I just moved away from home like, all of these big changes. I had a full time job for the first time and I had… I was living in Houston, Texas and I had this horrible commute. It was like, an hour and a half each way and… Jeff: Yeah. that’s pretty horrible. Erin: I think most people that have been in Houston know what I’m talking about. And I had all this time to kind of think and I basically on my commute started plotting a book. And some of it came from, I missed kind of the creative outlet writing research papers and stuff like that from school. And so, yeah, that’s kind of how I started writing as I plotted this book on my commute and then finally, I decided that I was gonna sit down and write it. And that book was “Controlled Burn.” Jeff: That’s an awesome story. Erin: Thank you. Jeff: What led you into putting this creativity towards M/M romance amongst all of the genres that were possible? Erin: Yeah. Some of it I think is that I was reading a lot of it at that time, I kind of got into M/M romance I guess if we’re going further back by reading Suzanne Brockmann, right? So she has the “Troubleshooters” series and that has Jules Cassidy who’s the gay FBI agent, right? He’s got that kind of the secondary romance through several books and then the primary thorugh a novella. And then whenever I was in grad school, I kind of didn’t have time to read for pleasure very much. So I wasn’t reading very much and then I took a class about reader’s advisory that we had to read like, the books from the best books of the year for “Publishers Weekly” and “Kirkus,” and stuff. And I just kind of… I can’t remember what year it was, but I grabbed kind of a random book off the romance list and it ended up being “Brothers of the Wild North Sea” by Harper Fox and I didn’t really realize that it was a male/male romance. So I just kinda grabbed it and started reading, and then it became quite clear, you know, very early on what it was. And it’s a beautiful book. Harper Fox is, you know, is a beautiful writer. Everything that she writes is really awesome and so, I kind of gobbled up everything that she had written and then it kind of hit me at that time. There has to be other writers that are doing this and, you know, they weren’t the books that were in the libraries. They weren’t in my libraries. So I kind of started searching them out and, you know, read a lot of K.A. Mitchell and Z.A. Maxfield, and some of those authors at that time that were the most prolific. And I was just very excited because I felt like there are all these authors that I had never heard of that I didn’t know about and they were all really, really good. And they were writing, you know, stories that kind of the themes were very important to me. And so, then when I write finally, eventually, decided to sit down and write a book. I think probably the main thing for me is that I wanted to write characters who are LGBTQIA in Oklahoma and it just happened to be that the first book that kind of came to mind, and that I plotted fully was an M/M romance in “Controlled Burn.” So that’s definitely how I got started. Jeff: That’s very cool and some great authors there to get you introduced to the genre as well. Who do you count as your author influences? Erin: Well, definitely, you know, my gateways were Suzanne Brockmann into romance in general and then Harper Fox. Kind of on a wider scale, I really like Alisha Rai. She kind of, she writes the heroines that are the type of parents that I just love. They are raunchy and rowdy, and wonderful. I would say also Annabeth Albert in terms of contemporary romance. Alexis Hall, I think kind of teaches or his books are like a master class on first person point of view if you look at “For Real” or “Glitterland.” And so, I really, really like his books too. Jeff: Now, your bio mentions that you like binge worthy TV shows. So of course, we have to know what are you binging these days or have binged recently that you would recommend? Erin: So my husband and I have been rewatching “Game of Thrones” of course, because the last season was about to come out. So when you binge that show, you just kind of realize how many awful things happened back to back to back because the first time we watched it, we didn’t binge it. We are watching it week to week, but when you’re binge watching that it’s like, “Oh, my God. That’s so awful, these things that keep happening.” Other than that, I really like… I like true crime, but I’m not watching any kind of true crime right now. And I like comedies. So I’ve watched “Schitt’s Creek” recently which I love, “The Good Place,” “Brooklyn Nine-Nine,” “One Day at a Time,” all these sitcoms that I think are really good, “Crazy Ex-Girlfriend” because I love musicals is really good. And then I also watch a lot of like, reality TV. So I like, like, “Tiny House Hunters,” and “Instant Hotel,” and “Project Runway,” shows kind of like that. Jeff: Very cool. Yeah. Some good stuff on there. Erin: You can tell me I watch a lot of TV. Jeff: “The Good Place” is a particular favorite. Erin: Yeah. It’s so smart. It’s so different than like, yeah, it’s very, very unique. So this is a great list for everybody who’s looking for something to binge the spring right here. So what’s coming up next for you in your release plans? Jeff: So I don’t have anything kind of set in stone. I’m not very good at planning. [I”m working on one about] tornado chasers or storm chasers. That’s a male/male romance that I have on submission right now to a publisher that I’m hoping will pick it up. If they don’t, then, you know, it’ll keep going out and hopefully somebody else will want it. I’m currently writing a book about a rec league softball team and I want this to be really, really tropey and kind of fun and light. The first one is using kind of the one bed trope. So I hope that that would be a lot of fun. I’ll write Alex’s story pretty soon and then I have a book that I wrote. But I’m hoping to put out at Christmas, it’s called “Stocking Stuffers.” And it’s a M/F romance with a bi heroine who sell sex toys. You know, like the Tupperware parties, but it’s like the, you know, the sex toy Tupperware parties kind of. And so, she works for a company kinda is the marketing person for a company like that and she’s hosting one of those parties, get snowed in, you know, with a big red bag of toys basically. Jeff: Yeah. That’s like an interesting forced proximity story. Erin: yeah. So it was a lot of fun to write. Jeff: And I’m very interested in the storm chasers one too because I’m kind of a weather geek at heart. So you kind of got me on that one. Erin: It was a lot of fun to write. Growing up in Oklahoma, you know, tornadoes are such a kind of a constant really. I mean, my parents have lost a house in tornado. I know lots of people that have lost houses in tornado. It’s so common. It’s just kind of a part of your life especially if you’re from Central Oklahoma like me and so, it’s… Yeah. It was a really fun one to write because you are just kind of entrenched in bad weather in Oklahoma in the spring all the time. So… Jeff: Very cool. And how can readers keep up with you online to keep track of all these projects? Erin: So I have a Facebook group called Erin McLellan’s Meet Cute. That’s a good one if you kind of… I do giveaways and book recs, and stuff. On Twitter my handle is @emclellanwrites and I’m on Twitter pretty often. On Instagram it’s @erinmclellanwrites and on Instagram, I would say it’s about 70% Alaska stuff like, every moves that I’ve ever seen and then 30% books. Unless there’s a book released and then it flips. But it’s a lot of Alaska if you follow me on Instagram. And then my newsletter which you can get too on my website or through any of the social media too. You would be able to kind of find the link to my newsletter and that’s probably the best way if you just want like, to know about new releases or sales, or things like that without having to kind of trudge through Twitter. Jeff: Well, fantastic. Well, I thank you so much for coming to talk to us about “Clean Break” and wish you all the success on that one and the upcoming releases as well. Erin: Thank you so much. It was so fun.

Show Notes Jeff: Welcome back to EMplify, the podcast corollary to EB Medicine’s Emergency Medicine Practice. I’m Jeff Nusbaum, and I’m back with my co-host, Nachi Gupta. This month, after a few months of primarily medical topics, we’re talking trauma, specifically Blunt Cardiac Injury: Emergency Department Diagnosis and Management. Nachi: With no gold standard diagnostic test and with complications ranging from simple ectopic beats to fulminant cardiac failure and death, this isn’t an episode you’ll want to miss. Jeff: Before we begin, let me give a quick shout out to our incredible group of authors from New York -- Dr. Eric Morley, Dr. Bryan English, and Dr. David Cohen of Stony Brook Medicine and Dr. William Paolo, residency program director at SUNY Upstate. I should also mention their peer reviewers Drs. Jennifer Maccagnano and Ashley Norse of the NY institute of technology college of osteopathic medicine and UF Health Jacksonville, respectively. Nachi: This month’s team parsed through roughly 1200 articles as well as guidelines from the eastern association for surgery in trauma also known as EAST. Jeff: Clearly a large undertaking for a difficult topic to come up with solid evidence based recommendations. Nachi: For sure. Let’s begin with some epidemiology, which is admittedly quite difficult without universally accepted diagnostic criteria. Jeff: As you likely know, despite advances in motor vehicle safety, trauma remains a leading cause of death for young adults. In the US alone, each year, there are about 900,000 cases of cardiac injury secondary to trauma. Most of these occur in the setting of vehicular trauma. Nachi: And keep in mind, that those injuries don’t occur in isolation as 70-80% of patients with blunt cardiac injury sustain other injuries. This idea of concomitant trauma will be a major theme in today’s episode. Jeff: It certainly will. But before we get there, we have some more definitions to review - cardiac concussion and contusion, both of which were defined in a 1989 study. In this study, cardiac concussion was defined as an elevated CKMB with a normal echo, while a cardiac contusion was defined as an elevated CKMB and abnormal echo. Nachi: Much to my surprise, though, abnormal echo and elevated ck-mb have not been shown to be predictive of adverse outcomes, but conduction abnormalities on ekgs have been predictive of development of serious dysrhythmia Jeff: More on complications in a bit, but first, returning to the idea of concomitant injuries, in one autopsy study of nearly 1600 patients with blunt trauma - cardiac injuries were reported in 11.9% of cases and contributed to the death of 45.2% of those patients. Nachi: Looking more broadly at the data, according to one retrospective review, blunt cardiac injury may carry a mortality of up to 44%. Jeff: That’s scary high, though I guess not terribly surprising, given that we are discussing heart injuries due to major trauma... Nachi: The force may be direct or indirect, involve rapid deceleration, be bidirectional, compressive, concussive, or even involve a combination of these. In general, the right ventricle is the most frequently injured area due to the proximity to the chest wall. Jeff: Perfect, so that's enough background, let’s talk differential. As you likely expected, the differential is broad and includes cardiovascular injuries, pulmonary injuries, and other mediastinal injuries like pneumomediastinum and esophageal injuries. Nachi: Among the most devastating injuries on the differential is cardiac wall rupture, which not surprisingly has an extremely high mortality rate. In terms of location of rupture, both ventricles are far more likely to rupture than the atria with the right atria being more likely to rupture than the left atria. Atrial ruptures are more survivable, whereas complete free wall rupture is nearly universally fatal. Jeff: Septal injuries are also on the ddx. Septal injuries occur immediately, either from direct impact or when the heart becomes compressed between the sternum and the spine. Delayed rupture can occur secondary to an inflammatory reaction. This is more likely in patients with a prior healed or repaired septal defects. Nachi: Valvular injuries, like septal injuries, are rare. Left sided valvular damage is more common and carries a higher mortality risk. In order, the aortic valve is more commonly injured followed by the mitral valve then tricuspid valve, and finally the pulmonic valve. Remember that valvular damage can be due to papillary muscle rupture or damage to the chordae tendineae. Consider valvular injury in any patient who appears to be in cardiogenic shock, has hypotension without obvious hemorrhage, or has pulmonary edema. Jeff: Next on the ddx are coronary artery injuries, which include lacerations, dissections, aneurysms, thrombosis, and even MI secondary to increased sympathetic activity and platelet activity after trauma. In one review, dissection was the most commonly uncovered pathology, occurring 71% of the time, followed by thrombosis, which occured only 7% of the time. The LAD is the most commonly injured artery followed by the RCA. Nachi: Pericardial injury, including pericarditis, effusion, tamponade, and rarely rupture, is also certainly on the differential. Jeff: In terms of dysrhythmias, sinus tachycardia is the most common dysrhythmia, with other rhythms, including PVC / PAC / and afib being found only 1-6% of the time. Nachi: And while conduction blocks are rare, a RBBB is the most commonly noted, followed by a 1st degree AVB. Jeff: Though also rare, commotio cordis deserves it’s own section as its the second most common cause of death in athletes < 18 who are victims of blunt trauma. Though only studied in swine models, it’s hypothesized that the impact to the chest wall during T-wave upstroke can precipitate v-fib. Nachi: Aortic root injuries usually occur at the insertion of the ligamentum arteriosum and isthmus. Such injuries typically result in aortic insufficiency. Jeff: And the last pathology on the differential requiring special attention is a myocardial contusion. Again, no standard definition exists, with some diagnostic criteria including simply chest pain and increasing cardiac enzymes, and others including cardiac dysfunction, ecg abnormalities, wall motion abnormalities, and an elevation of cardiac enzymes. Nachi: Certainly a pretty broad differential… before moving on to the work up, Jeff why don’t you get us started with prehospital care? Jeff: Prehospital management should focus on rapid identification and stabilization of life threatening injuries with expeditious transport as longer prehospital times have been associated with increased mortality in trauma. Immediate transport to a Level I trauma center should be the highest priority for those with suspected blunt cardiac injury. Nachi: In terms of who specifically should be transporting the patient, a Cochrane review evaluated the utility of ALS vs BLS transport in trauma. There is reasonably good data to support BLS over ALS, even when controlling for trauma severity. Moreover, when airway management is needed, advanced airway techniques by ALS crews were associated with decreased odds of survival. Regardless of who is there, the message is the same: focus not on interventions, but instead on rapid transport. Jeff: And if it does happen to be an ALS transport crew, without delaying transport, pain management with fentanyl is both safe and reasonable and preferred over morphine. Post opiate hypotension in prehospital trauma patients is a rare but documented complication. Nachi: And if the prehospital team is lucky enough, or maybe unlucky enough, i don’t know, to have a credentialed provider who can perform ultrasound for those suspected of having a blunt cardiac injury, the general prehospital data on ultrasound is sparse. As of now, it’s difficult to conclude if prehospital US improves care for trauma patients. Jeff: Interestingly, the system I work in has prehospital physicians, who do carry US, but I can’t think of a major trauma where ultrasound changed any of the decisions we made. Nachi: Right, and I think that just reinforces the main point here: there may be a role, we just don’t have the data to support it at this time. Jeff: Great, let’s move onto ED care, beginning with the H&P. Nachi: On history, make sure to elucidate if there is any chest pain, and if it’s onset was before or after the traumatic event. In addition, make sure to ask about dyspnea, fatigue, palpitations, and lightheadedness. Jeff: And don’t forget to get the crash details from the EMS crew before they depart! As a side note, for anyone taking oral boards in a few months, don’t forget to ask the EMS crew for the details!!! Nachi: A definite must for oral boards and for your clinical practice. Jeff: In terms of the physical, tachycardia is the most common abnormality in blunt cardiac injury. In those with severe injury, you may note refractory hypotension secondary to cardiogenic shock. But don’t be reassured by normal vitals, especially in the young, who may be compensating well despite being quite ill. Nachi: Fully undress the patient to appropriately inspect and percuss the chest wall - looking for signs of previous cardiac surgeries or pacemaker placement, as well as to auscultate for new murmurs which may be a sign of valvular injury. Jeff: Similarly, as concomitant injuries are common, inspect the abdomen, looking for ecchymosis patterns, which often accompany blunt cardiac injury. Nachi: Pretty standard stuff. Let’s move on to diagnostic testing. Jeff: Lab testing should include a CBC, BMP, coags, troponin, lactate, and T&S. In one retrospective analysis, an elevated troponin and a lactate over 2.5 were predictors of mortality. Nachi: Additionally, in patients with chest trauma, a troponin > 1.05 was associated with a greater risk for dysrhythmias and LV dysfunction. Jeff: And it likely goes without saying, but an EKG is a must on all trauma patients with suspicion for blunt cardiac injury in accordance with the EAST guidelines. New EKG findings requires admission for monitoring. Unfortunately, on the flip side, an ECG cannot be used to rule out blunt cardiac injury. Nachi: Diving a bit deeper into the data, in a prospective study of 333 patients with blunt thoracic trauma, serial EKG and troponins at 0, 4, and 8 hours post injury had a sensitivity and specificity of 100% and 71%, respectively. However, of those with abnormal findings, all but one had them on initial testing, leading to a negative predictive value of 98%. Jeff: Well that’s an impressive NPV and has huge implications, especially in the era of heavily monitored lengths of stay... Nachi: Definitely. In terms of radiography, a chest x-ray should be obtained as rib fractures, hemopneumothorax, and mediastinal free air are all things you wouldn't want to miss and are also associated with blunt cardiac injury. Jeff: Keep in mind, however, that the chest x-ray should not be seen as a test for pericardial fluid as up to 200 mL of fluid can be contained in the pericardial space and remain undetectable by chest radiograph. Nachi: Which is why you’ll have to turn to our good friend the ultrasound, for more useful data. The data is strong that in the hands of trained Emergency Clinicians, when parasternal, apical, and subcostal views are obtained, US has an accuracy of 97.5% for pericardial effusion. Jeff: Not only is US accurate, it’s also quick. In one RCT, the FAST exam reduced the time from arrival in the ED to operative care by 64% in the setting of trauma. Nachi: That’s impressive -- for expediting patient care and for managing ED flow. Jeff: Exactly. The authors do note however that hemopericardium is a rare finding, so, while not the focus of this article, the real utility of the FAST exam may be in its expanded form, the eFAST, in which a rapid bedside ultrasonographic lung exam for pneumothorax is included, as this can lead to immediate changes in management. Nachi: And assuming you do your FAST or eFAST and have no management changing findings, CT will often be your next test. Jeff: Yeah, EKG-gated multidetector CT can easily diagnose myocardial rupture, pneumopericardium, pericardial rupture, hemopericardium, coronary artery insult, ventricular septal defects and even valvular dysfunction. Unfortunately, CT does not perform well for the evaluation of myocardial contusions. Nachi: This is all well and good, and certainly accurate, but let’s not forget that hemodynamically unstable trauma patients, like those with myocardial rupture, need to be in the operating room, not the CT scanner. Jeff: An important point that should not be understated. Nachi: And the last major testing modality to discuss is the echocardiogram. Jeff: The echo is a fantastic test for detecting focal cardiac dysfunction often see with cardiac contusions, hemopericardium, and valve disruption. Nachi: And it’s worth noting that transthoracic is enough, as transesophageal, despite the better images, hasn’t been shown to change management. TEE should be saved for those in whom a optimal TTE study isn’t feasible. Jeff: Great point. And one last quick note on echo: in terms of guidelines, the EAST guidelines from 2012 specifically recommend an echo in hemodynamically unstable patients or those with a persistent new dysrhythmia without other sources of ongoing hemorrhage or neurologic etiology of instability. Nachi: Perfect, so that wraps up testing and imaging for our blunt cardiac injury patient. Let’s move on to treatment. Jeff: In terms of initial resuscitation, there is an ever increasing body of literature to support blood transfusion over crystalloid in patients requiring volume expansion in trauma. There are no specific guidelines for transfusion in the setting of blunt cardiac injury, so stick to your standard trauma protocols. Nachi: It is worth noting, though, that there is literature outside of trauma for those with pericardial effusions, suggesting that those with a SBP < 100 have substantial benefit from volume expansion. So keep this in mind if your clinical suspicion is high and your trauma patient has a soft but not truly shocky blood pressure. Jeff: Operative management, specifically ED thoracotomy is a heavily debated topic, and it’s next on our list to discuss. Nachi: The 2015 EAST guidelines conditionally recommend ED thoracotomy for moribund patients with signs of life. The Western Trauma Association broadens the ED thoracotomy window a bit to include anyone with no signs of life but less than 10 minutes of CPR. The latter also recommend ED thoracotomy in those with refractory shock. Jeff: Though few studies exist on the topic, in one study of 187 patients, cardiac motion on US was 100% sensitive for predicting survivors. Nachi: Not great data, but it does support one's decision to stop any further work up should there be no cardiac activity, which is important, because the decision to pursue an ED thoracotomy is not an easy one. Jeff: And lastly, emergent pericardiocentesis may be another option in an unstable patient when definitive operative management is not possible. But do note that pericardiocentesis is only a temporizing measure, and not definitive for cardiac tamponade. Nachi: Treatment for dysrhythmias is standard, treat in accordance with standard ACLS protocols, as formal randomized trials on prophylaxis and treatment in the setting of blunt cardiac injury do not exist. Jeff: Seems reasonable enough. And in the very rare setting of an MI after blunt cardiac injury, you should involve cardiology, cardiothoracic surgery, and trauma to help make important management decisions. Data is, again, lacking, but the patient likely needs percutaneous angiography for appropriate diagnosis and potentially further intervention. Definitely hold off on ASA and likely nitroglycerin, at least until significant bleeding has been ruled out. Nachi: Yup, no style points for giving aspirin to a bleeding trauma patient. Speaking of medications, the last treatment modality to discuss here is pain control. Pain management is essential with chest injuries, as appropriate pain management has been shown to reduce mortality in pulmonary related complications. Jeff: And in line with every acute pain consult note I’ve ever come across, a multimodal approach utilizing opioids and nonopioids is recommended. Nachi: Perfect, so that sums up treatment, next we have one special circumstance to discuss: sternal fractures. Cardiac contusions are found in 1.8-2.4% of patients with sternal fractures, almost all of which were seen on CT and not XR according to the NEXUS chest CT study. Of these patients, only 2 deaths occured, both due to cardiac causes.  Thus, in patients with isolated sternal fractures, negative trops, ekg, and negative cxr - the patient can likely be discharged from the ED, as long as their pain is well-controlled. Jeff: And let’s talk controversies for this issue. We only have one to discuss: MRI. Nachi: The fact that MRI produces awesome images is not controversial, see figure 3. It’s role, however, is. In accordance with EAST guidelines, MRI may be most useful in differentiating acute ischemia from blunt cardiac injury in those with abnormal ECGs, elevated enzymes, or abnormal echos. It’s use in the hyperacute evaluation, however, is limited, in large part owing to the length of time required to complete an MRI Jeff: What a time to be alive that we even have to say that MRIs may not have a hyperacute role in trauma - absolutely crazy... Nachi: Moving on to disposition: any patient with aortic, pericardial, or myocardial injury and hemodynamic instability needs operative evaluation and likely intervention, so do not hesitate to get the consults coming or the helicopter in the air should such a patient arrive at your non-trauma center. Jeff: And in those that are hemodynamically stable, with either a positive ECG or a positive trop, they should be monitored on telemetry. There is no clear answer as to how long, but numerous studies suggest a 24 hour period of observation is sufficient. For those with persistent ekg abnormalities or rising trops - this is precisely when you will want to pursue echocardiography. Nachi: And if there are positive EKG findings AND a rising trop, they should be admitted to a step down unit or ICU as well -- as ⅔ of them will develop myocardial dysfunction. Similarly, those with hemodynamic instability but no active traumatic bleeding source - they too should be admitted to the ICU for a STAT echo and serial enzymes. Jeff: But in the vast majority of patients, those that are hemodynamically stable with negative serial EKGs and serial tropinins, they can effectively be ruled out for significant BCI after an 8 hour ED observation period, as we mentioned earlier with a sensitivity approaching 100%! Nachi: Though there are, of course, exceptions to this rule, like those with low physiologic reserve, mobility or functional issues, or complex social situations, which may need to be assessed on a more case-by-case basis. Jeff: Let’s wrap up this episode with some key points and clinical pearls. Cardiac wall rupture is the most devastating form of Blunt Cardiac Injury. The sealing of a ruptured wall may lead to a pseudoaneurysm and delayed tamponade. Trauma to the coronary arteries may lead to a myocardial infarction. The left anterior descending artery is most commonly affected. The most common arrhythmia associated with blunt cardiac injury is sinus tachycardia. RBBB is the most commonly associated conduction block. Commotio cordis is the second most common cause of death in athletes under the age of 18. Early defibrillation is linked to better outcomes. Antiplatelet agents like aspirin should be avoided in blunt cardiac injury until significant hemorrhage has been ruled out. An EKG should be obtained in all patients with suspected blunt cardiac injury. However, an EKG alone does not rule out blunt cardiac injury. Serial EKG and serial troponin testing at hours 0, 4, and 8 have a sensitivity approaching 100% for blunt cardiac injury. An elevated lactate level or troponin is associated with increased mortality in blunt cardiac injury. Perform a FAST exam to assess for pericardial effusions. FAST exams are associated with a significant reduction in transfer time to an operating room. Obtain a chest X-ray in all patients in whom you have concern for blunt cardiac injury. Note that the pericardium is poorly compliant and pericardial fluid might not be detected on chest X-ray. Transesophageal echocardiogram should be considered when an optimal transthoracic study cannot be achieved. CT is used routinely in evaluating blunt chest trauma but know that it does not evaluate cardiac contusions well. In acute evaluation, MRI is generally a less useful imaging modality given the long imaging time. There is evidence to suggest that a patient with an isolated sternal fracture and negative biomarkers and negative EKG findings can be safely discharged from the ED if pain is well-controlled. Trauma to the aorta, pericardium, or myocardium is associated with severe hemodynamic instability. These patients need surgical evaluation emergently. Hemodynamically stable patients with a positive troponin test or with new EKG abnormalities should be observed for cardiac monitoring. Nachi: So that wraps up Episode 26 on Blunt Cardiac Injury! Jeff: Additional materials are available on our website for Emergency Medicine Practice subscribers. If you’re not a subscriber, consider joining today. You can find out more at ebmedicine.net/subscribe. Subscribers get in-depth articles on hundreds of emergency medicine topics, concise summaries of the articles, calculators and risk scores, and CME credit. You’ll also get enhanced access to the podcast, including any images and tables mentioned. You can find everything you need to know at ebmedicine.net/subscribe. Nachi: It’s also worth mentioning for current subscribers that the website has recently undergone a major rehaul and update. The new site is easier to use on mobile browsers, has better search functionality, mobile-friendly CME testing, and quick access to the digest and podcast. Jeff: And as those of us in the north east say goodbye to the snow for the year, it’s time to start thinking about the summer and maybe start planning for the Clinical Decision Making conference in sunny Ponta Vedra Beach, Fl. The conference will run from June 27th to June 30th this year with a pre-conference workshop on June 26th. Nachi: And the address for this month’s credit is ebmedicine.net/E0319, so head over there to get your CME credit. As always, the [DING SOUND] you heard throughout the episode corresponds to the answers to the CME questions. Lastly, be sure to find us on iTunes and rate us or leave comments there. You can also email us directly at EMplify@ebmedicine.net with any comments or suggestions. Talk to you next month! Most Important References 7.* Clancy K, Velopulos C, Bilaniuk JW, et al. Screening for blunt cardiac injury: an Eastern Association for the Surgery of Trauma practice management guideline. J Trauma Acute Care Surg. 2012;73(5 Suppl 4):S301-S306. (Guideline) 22.* Schultz JM, Trunkey DD. Blunt cardiac injury. Crit Care Clin. 2004;20(1):57-70. (Review article) 23.* El-Chami MF, Nicholson W, Helmy T. Blunt cardiac trauma. J Emerg Med. 2008;35(2):127-133. (Review article) 27.* Bock JS, Benitez RM. Blunt cardiac injury. Cardiol Clin. 2012;30(4):545-555. (Review article) 34.* Berk WA. ECG findings in nonpenetrating chest trauma: a review. J Emerg Med. 1987;5(3):209-215. (Review article) 64.* Velmahos GC, Karaiskakis M, Salim A, et al. Normal electrocardiography and serum troponin I levels preclude the presence of clinically significant blunt cardiac injury. J Trauma. 2003;54(1):45-50. (Prospective; 333 patients) 73.* Melniker LA, Leibner E, McKenney MG, et al. Randomized controlled clinical trial of point-of-care, limited ultrasonography for trauma in the emergency department: the first sonography outcomes assessment program trial. Ann Emerg Med. 2006;48(3):227-235. (Randomized controlled trial; 262 patients)

He's a libertarian, anarcho-capitalist. He hosts the biggest conference, Anarchapulco, for anarcho-capitalism. He's The Dollar Vigilante. Originally from Canada, hailing from Mexico. Jeff Berwick   Stefan: Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the show, Respect The Grind, with Stefan Aarnio. This is the show where we interview people who achieve mastery and freedom through discipline. We interview entrepreneurs, athletes, authors, artists, real estate investors, anyone who has achieved mastery and examined what it took to get there. Today on the show, I have a very special guest out of the norm, Jeff Berwick. He's a libertarian, anarcho-capitalist. He hosts the biggest conference, Anarchapulco, for anarcho-capitalism. He's The Dollar Vigilante. Originally from Canada, hailing from Mexico. Jeff, good to have you on the show today. Respect The Grind, my friend. Jeff: It's a pleasure. Thank you. Stefan: Yeah. I really appreciate having a guest like you on the show, because we normally talk about like business and making money, and real estate. A lot of people listening to this show, they want financial freedom for themselves, and they're trying to make money. They're trying to invest, whatever that means. It's cool to have a guy like you on the show. We had a mutual friend of ours, John Sneisen, on the show a little while ago, and I love talking to guys like you, because we end up talking about the money system. We talk about freedom in the free world, free speech, all this kind of stuff. For the people at home who don't know you, Jeff, can you introduce yourself in your own words? Who are you, and why is this a relevant conversation for us to be speaking? Jeff: Sure. Yeah. Actually, it's a totally relevant conversation that's everything that I talk about. I've been doing that for about nine years now, since 2010, with The Dollar Vigilante, which is a anarcho-capitalist financial newsletter talking about how to free yourself. Not just financially, but in every way possible. Of course, for people that don't understand the word, "anarcho" means anarchy, of course, and that's a Greek word which means "an," without, "archy," ruler. I just believe that no one should have a ruler and no one should be a slave. I don't know why that's controversial at all, but that's the government indoctrination camps that people have had for about 12 years that most people have been forced into. Jeff: Then the capitalist part, a lot of people actually misunderstand that word, too. They think that what you have in the U.S. today is capitalism. There is a small part of capitalism still remaining, and that's why the U.S. is still standing, but it's mostly fascism, and crony capitalism, and what I call crapitalism. Really, when I say "capitalism," I just mean free market. I've been, and completely free market, so no government involvement whatsoever, no taxation, no regulation, no central banks, and no fiat currencies and things like that. I've been doing that for about nine years. Jeff: I also do a podcast called Anarchast. I've been doing that for about seven years, and it's grown quite a bit. It's nothing too huge, but it's actually spawned an entire conference now called Anarchapulco, as you mentioned. It's now the world's premier liberty and freedom event held in Acapulco, Mexico, every year. It's coming up in February 14th to 17th. We're expecting about 3,000 people, because the freedom, the idea of it is actually growing, believe it or not. I've been doing all that stuff for about, as I said, about eight or nine years now. Stefan: That's tremendous, Jeff. People like you, I really got to salute a guy like you, because it's not easy. It's not easy going against the grain. It's not easy speaking out about this stuff. It's not a popular table topic at the Thanksgiving table or the Christmas table. I remember when I was telling my family years ago about the money system at like at Christmas dinner or Thanksgiving dinner. Everybody got up and left. The average person doesn't want to hear about how they are enslaved. They don't want to hear about the money system. I remember years ago when I was 21, 22, I read a book called Atlas Shrugged by Ayn Rand, and that's the capitalist bible. The communists have Karl Marx, Das Kapital, and then the capitalists have Ayn Rand's Atlas Shrugged. It's number two most influential book in the United States. Stefan: Can you explain to the people at home, that's where I've first heard the word "libertarian." What's a libertarian? Because people, we're from Canada, or I'm from Canada, in Winnipeg, today, and people hear "libertarian," and they think libertarian is liberal, because it's L-I-B. They don't know the difference between the two words. What's a libertarian? Jeff: That's interesting you're up there in Winterpeg. I'm originally from what I call Deadmonton, so up in Canada. Stefan: Dude, that's the other Winnipeg. I'm giving that a gong. Bang. Just gonged it up. Deadmonton and Winterpeg. Jeff: Yeah, so the word "libertarian," I actually didn't even really know the word until about 15 years ago. It's become quite popular. It's become fairly popular since Ron Paul ran for president in 2008. Really, what the word means is, well, it's pretty simple word, "libertarianism." What it means is that if you're a libertarian, then you hold as one of your highest principles liberty or freedom. If you truly hold that as one of your highest principles, then you should actually be a anarchist, because an anarchist believes in complete freedom. It believes in the freedom of the individual that no one has the right to enslave and say they own another person. Of course, whenever you have a government, you're just born somewhere, and they go, "Well, you're ours now," especially in the U.S., where every baby born today in the U.S. has a quarter of a million U.S. dollars worth of debt and liabilities overhanging it from the government that it's supposed to pay off. Stefan: My God. Jeff: That's absolutely criminal and absolute tyranny and slavery. That's what we have in every country today, as well as Canada and every other country. A true libertarian truly believes that no one should be ruled or owned by anyone without their permission. Of course, there's a lot of people who don't mind being owned or being slaves. They're called statists, and if they want to do that, that's fine. I have no problem. As a libertarian or as an anarchist, do whatever you want. Just don't aggress against me. The only problem is, when they get these governments going, they always seem to include us and seem to think that, "Well, you are now owned by whichever government in whatever area you're in." I just completely disagree with that. Stefan: Yeah. I saw Jordan Peterson. You're probably familiar with Jordan Peterson, right? Jeff: Yeah. Stefan: I saw Jordan Peterson speak in the summer. He was speaking here in Winnipeg, Winterpeg, at the Burton Cummings Theatre, and he said something interesting that I thought something that I think people need to hear more often. He said, "The human race for most of history has lived under tyranny. We used to have monarchies. We used to have feudalism. For most, most of the human race, we've had tyranny, and for very brief times, we've had democracies or republics, but democracy lasts for about 250 years. Then it turns into a tyranny, usually, and then after that, turns back into a monarchy." Why do you think monarchies and tyrannies have existed throughout history, and why does it always seem to consolidate power like that? Why can't we just stay as a democracy or republic all the time? Jeff: Well, first of all, I'm not so sure about human history. I think most things we're told about history are lies, and so really, anything beyond a couple of hundred years ago, I really have doubts about what really happened. I really don't know what happened, but I don't trust anything that we're told by the media, or the governments, or the schools, which are all sort of the same sort of people running those sort of things, but what I understand happened is, a few hundred years ago, there was things like kings and queens, and they were doing that quite a bit. They were going around doing similar things that governments do today and say, "Hey, you were born here, so now you have to pay us a certain percentage of whatever you make," and that sort of a thing. Jeff: Really, a few hundred years ago, and it sort of seems to have happened in France, which is kind of interesting, because there's a bit of an uprising happening there again right now, is a lot of people said, "This is crazy. Just because you're born, this whole idea of kings and queens is so insane." I love the Monty Python, I think it was in the Holy Grail one, where the king's walking around, and he's like, "I'm your king." They're like, "You're who?" He's like, "I was born of this mother," and everyone's like, "What?" He's like, "I found a sword in the lake, and therefore I'm your king." They're like, "You're crazy," but for whatever reason, people kind of fell in line with that. Jeff: Of course, a lot of these monarchies were really tyrannical, and they would really, if you didn't pay them, they would kill you, that sort of a thing. That's very similar to governments. A few hundred years ago, people kind of woke up from it, and they said, "Well, this is stupid." The people who were in control at the time really realized they're going to lose a lot of power, and so they came up with an absolutely ingenious idea. That ingenious idea was democracy, which is a totally heinous, evil system of mob rule. If you have 51% of people decide that legally they can kill the other 49%, then everything's fine. Jeff: It's absolutely insane and just keeps people battling each other, but it's absolutely ingenious, because they've managed, through the government indoctrination camps, and through the media, the mainstream media, television, propaganda programming, to tell people that, "Oh, when you have a democracy, then you are the one who rules yourself, and you get to rule yourself by voting once every four or five years. You get to tick a box," and then some guy goes somewhere, and he makes decisions about what you're going to have to give up and how much they're going to extort you and things like that, but it's absolutely an ingenious idea. It's worked now for a few hundred years, and people have really fallen for it, but they're starting to wake up to it. That's what we're starting to see across the world, really. Jeff: We're starting to see that in France right now. Again, they're starting to realize, "This is absolutely insane that we have people ruling us without our permission, and taking our money, and things like that." Even Donald Trump, in the U.S., was to an extent an awakening of people going, "This system is horrible. We've got this total political class that is totally ruling us and just totally enslaving us." Jeff: What they thought was, "Well, we have democracy, thank God. We have democracy, so we can elect someone else," so they elected a kind of a bit of an outsider, Donald Trump, who's best friends with the Clintons and has been involved with central banks and with the Bush family for decades. His family's been very involved with the Bush family, so he's been very involved in the political class, but he came in as sort of an outsider, and you kind of see a lot of people saying, "Oh, he's an outsider, so he can fix things." He's not an outsider whatsoever. It's another sort of ruse in the whole democracy game, but really, that's what we've got today. Jeff: Now, what we've got at The Dollar Vigilante, I cover how bankrupt all these nation states are, how the central banks are printing money until we're going to be, hit hyperinflation very soon, so we're very near the end of this sort of system of these big nation states, of these big welfare states, warfare states, Big Brother nanny states, where everything is controlled, and regulated, and extorted, and taxed, and that sort of a thing. It's all going bankrupt right now, so even if people didn't wake up to what I'm talking about, we're still going to go through a massive amount of change in the next few years as all these systems all go down because they're all bankrupt. Stefan: Yeah. Well, there's a ... Man, Jeff, you said a mouthful there, man. I don't even know where to start, but I'm going to try to weigh in on what you said there at the end. Now, I wrote a book here called Hard Times Create Strong Men. I'm holding it up here for the camera for the people at home, and the cycles of history, as I understand it, goes like this. Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. Weak men create hard times. That whole cycle takes about 80 years, and every 80 years, there's a major war, a major crisis, a major reset. 80 years ago was World War II. 80 years before that was American Civil War, and you can trace this back in history. 80 to 100 years, every 80 to 100 years, is a major reset. Now, if you trace that out to the future right now from World War II to now, 2020 is the next "hard times create strong men." Stefan: That's what the book's about is, the men are becoming weak. When men become weak, the backbone of society falls apart. The family falls apart. The churches and the freedom of that falls apart, and what we end up with is some sort of major crisis. Would you say something like that's coming up? Jeff: Oh, absolutely, and I think those cycles are very true. If you just look at anyone who's like a rich kid, so his father most likely worked really hard his entire life and amassed a fairly large fortune, and then the kid comes along, and he's just pampered, and he never does anything. He never learns how to do anything. He never has to learn anything about life, and they usually become idiots, and they actually end up usually wasting or losing most of their money. This is a very natural sort of a cycle that can happen if you're not smart, if, as a father, if you make a lot of money, you don't just give it to your kids. That's absolutely ridiculous. Talk about a really great way to destroy your children, but the big problem with that cycle that you just mentioned that's been going on now for centuries is the government. Jeff: When you get the government involved, it's not just people who are destroying themselves through the cycle of people having to have hard times to get better and actually learn skills and work hard, and then they get soft afterwards, and then their kids get really soft and that sort of thing. That happens all normally, but when you add the government into it, it gets way worse, because then what, that's exactly what we're seeing today in a place like the U.S., which used to be quite capitalist. It has been fully capitalist, really, since its inception. It hasn't been, definitely has not been capitalist since 1913 when they first put in the Federal Reserve and the income tax acts in the same year, which is no coincidence whatsoever. It's been kind of a mix of the socialism, and communism, and fascism since then. Jeff: About what you've seen because of the capitalism, because of the free markets, there was quite a bit of free markets in the U.S. There isn't any more, but there used to be quite a bit. You build up all this wealth, and when you have a government, it always seems to skew to these people going, "Well, now that we have quite a wealthy place, we should be quite giving." Yeah, that's great. Give, but what they're talking about is, the government should steal money from everyone, extort everybody, and then give some of it to some people, which is absolutely heinous, and evil, and destroys everything. Jeff: Even the welfare system destroys the people on welfare, but as I was mentioning, like that whole cycle would happen probably quite normally unless people start to wake up and realize what they're doing, but the fact that we have governments today makes it so much worse, because that's what we're seeing in the U.S. You even see communism is really catching on in the U.S., because you've got all these pampered little kids. They sit there on their MacBook Pro at Starbucks ranting about how evil capitalism is and saying they want communism, and they don't even look up the last 100 years of what communism has brought a lot of places, like the Soviet Union, or Cuba, or Venezuela, and places like that. Jeff: They just, because they're so soft, and they've never really done anything, that's why they call them little snowflakes and things like that, and they become social justice warriors. Really, they're just non-player characters, NPCs, but yeah, the big problem with that whole cycle is government. If we can get government out of the way, then you'd have families destroying themselves over time over and over and not realizing the problems that they keep creating for themselves, but they wouldn't force it all on the rest of us through government. Stefan: Yeah. Wow. I mean, this is some really good stuff, and the snowflake thing, the snowflakism's a reason why I wrote Hard Times, because I had some of these snowflakes in my company. I have a company. I got 13 employees, and these little snowflakes were crying, "Oh, you're mean, and I don't love this. This isn't my dream job, and you make me feel like a piece of shit," and I had people showing up late. Just snowflakism all day, and I said, "Where does this come from? Where does the snowflakism come from?" I started writing this book Hard Times, and it's interesting, because what you said is absolutely true. Stefan: We've had some communist subversion come in from the Cold War into our schools, into our churches, into our militaries, everything, and we got this virus in our brain that thinks that communism is going to save inequality, but in history, communism has never worked. It has never worked once. It ends in massive, massive killing and massive death. There's something like 100 million people slaughtered in the last 100 years with communism. It's something brutal. It's the biggest cause of unnatural death, and every 80 years, we think it's going to work somehow. Somebody somewhere's trying communism. Stefan: As an extension, I've been studying communism, I was watching a show with Stefan Molyneux on Freedomain Radio, and he was talking about how feminism actually spawned out of communism when they started talking about equality, and men and women are equal, and next thing you know, in communist Russia, in 1917, when they switched over to communism, you had all sorts of major problems, where there was one crazy stat was, more babies were aborted than were born. You think about that, it's just a big, crazy, evil system. Why do we get this idea that we think that communism's going to save us from our own poverty? Like why does that idea keep coming in every 80 years into different societies around the world? Jeff: Yeah. That's a good question. I wish I knew the real answer, because it makes no sense. Obviously, these people don't look at actual history. As you pointed out, there's never been one ... It's not like there's been one that really worked out well, and they're like, "Oh, we screwed it up a few times." It's like every single one turns into disaster. It actually makes total sense why, because of human nature. For someone like yourself who's read books by Ayn Rand, you kind of understand the individualist sort of a thing, and that people will always do what's in their best interest. That just makes total and normal sense as human being. When you have this system that comes in and you say, "Okay, the guy at the top decides everything that we're all going to do," you don't keep anything from your work, so that makes it so a lot of people don't really want to work anymore, because why would you work if all the incentives go away to ... Jeff: I don't know about you, but when I do work, it's because I know I'm going to get something from it. I'm not just doing it because for no reason whatsoever. A lot of these people, especially ... Well, what's really happened in the West is that they've really pumped it up in the government indoctrination camps. That's why I say to people, "Get your kids out of the government schools. There's nothing that can be worse than that than having government actually teaching you ... " Not teaching, actually indoctrinating your child for like 12 of its most important years of its building of its sense of self, of its intelligence, of everything. Even Vladimir Lenin, of all people, said, "Give me your child for four years and the seed I plant will never be uprooted." Jeff: It starts a lot there, and then you go home in places like the U.S., or Canada, or a lot of places, and you turn on the television programming, and it's called programming for a reason. You get pro-cops, and pro-presidents, and, "The government saved us today," and turn on the news, which is total fake news. It's just government propaganda, and they're like, "Well, we saved this today," and all that sort of stuff. With the cycles that you're talking about, and we're in the snowflake cycle now of sort of this millennials that have never seen anything hard their whole life. To them, the hard thing they've seen is like when there's a long line at Starbucks or something like that. Stefan: No Wi-Fi on the plane. There's no Wi-Fi on the plane today. Darn. Jeff: Yeah, like that's the hardest times they've seen. Because they've gone through this indoctrination and that they're really, I actually stay away from colleges and universities, because it freaks me out to hang around, like they're all zombies, and they're the stupidest people I've ever met in my life. They're all indoctrinated and programmed. You go there, and half the classes are talking about communism and socialism, so they've got them in this sort of thing, and they're all going out there now. We've seen that ... What's that, there's that U.S. politician, some young girl, is just complete and total moron who's just got selected or elected into Congress. It's called Congress because it's a con game, and it's called the Constitution because that's also a con, and all that sort of stuff. Jeff: You've got those people out there pushing this stuff, and these kids just go out, and they think, they don't know anything better. It's very unfortunate, but that's why it's really important that we continue to push out what we push out, which is more free market stuff. A lot of people do catch on to it. It's not as bad as it seems. The worst place that it really is in the world today is the U.S. They've got everyone ... Not everyone, but most people, they're so indoctrinated, and so brainwashed, and so propagandized, but you go to a lot of other places like Mexico here, and a lot of people are pretty free market. They don't like government and things like that. That's why they make Mexico look so bad on the news. That's on purpose, because it's a lot more free market down here. Stefan: It's amazing. I mean, you moved to Mexico. I have this prediction that Russia right now is a freedom-growing country. They're getting more freedom over there. It's like the 1950s U.S. over there, and then over here, it's like we're a freedom-losing country in Canada and the U.S. It's interesting with, you're talking about the universities being scary. When I get a stack of résumés, and I'm hiring, I throw the ones with degrees in the trash. Yeah, they don't- Jeff: Yeah, me too. Stefan: The people can't think for themselves. I remember I went out with this 18-year-old girl, and she wanted a job, so we went out for lunch, and I said, "Okay, look. What do you want to do?" She goes, "I want to start a social media company." I'm like, "Great. Start it." We're eating lunch. I said, "Great. Start it." She says, "Well, I'm in the business school, and I'm going to get my MBA, and I don't think I can start, because I don't know how," and I said, "Well, go google that. Just start." "Oh, I don't think I know how. I'm not qualified." The school system literally disabled her mind from figuring out how she could just start a social media company. Stefan: I mean, I got some guys running my social media. They're 18, 19 years old, and I just met them at a restaurant. Boom, they're banging out my social media like crazy, doing a great job, but this same girl in the government indoctrination camp, as you say, the universities and the schools, can't think for herself. I also think it's interesting in the colleges and universities right now, the number one read book on economics is Karl Marx. That's just like, that just doesn't make sense. Why don't you tell me a bit, Jeff, why does Karl Marx as the number one economics book not make sense? Jeff: Oh, my God. First of all, he knows nothing about economics. He was a homeless guy who had no money, and he wrote a ... If I was around when he wrote the book, I would have given it a few minutes, or even maybe a few days, maybe even a month or two, of thought, because it sounds really good. Right? Like what is the communist sort of slogan? It is, "Give to-" Stefan: Seize the means of production? Jeff: No, but they have this slogan like, "Someone's needs ... " Stefan: Oh, "To every man's need," or, "To the best of his ability and every man's need," or something like that. Jeff: Something, but basically what it's saying is ... See, that's how stupid it is. I don't even memorize the stupid quote, but basically, it sounds nice. It sounds like, "Yeah, if people can't do things, then you help them." It's like, "Yeah, sounds great," but the way they're talking about is, you have this giant government. They come around. They steal things from people, and they decide who gets your money, essentially, and things like that. Yeah, and it's shocking that ... It's really mostly caught on in the U.S. Like obviously, if you go to the ... You brought up Russia. If you go to Russia, no one wants to read Karl Marx. They'd probably burn that book if they saw it, just because they'd be so angry at it. Jeff: Anyone who's actually lived through communism, a lot of the old Soviet Union, the Eastern Bloc, Poland, and a lot of those places, even Germany to an extent, they still remember a lot of that. That's all you need to know about communism is live through it, and you realize it. That's one thing that I always thought that's funny is, you have all these people like Bernie Sanders and all these people, and they're so pro-communism and socialism and all these sort of things. It's like, have you ever even just gone to Venezuela even for a weekend? Because I was there like a year and a half ago, and it was pretty bad. Jeff: I remember being there about 15 years ago, and it was really nice. In fact, you can look up Venezuela back in the '60s and '70s. It looked just as nice as what you see in the videos of the U.S. People got around in nice cars, looking all nice. Everyone's looking good and happy, and they have lots of food and all that sort of stuff, and now it's just a complete and total disaster, so ... Yeah, you have some people still ... It's mostly in the U.S., though, I have to say [inaudible 00:23:04]. Jeff: I meet a lot of people from the U.S., and they say, "Man, this whole world's going to hell." It's like, actually, it's not too bad. Most of the world is pretty good. It's really the U.S. is like, and Canada is almost just as bad now, and when you go to the universities, as you pointed out, and I do the same thing, I have only hired one university graduate ever, and it turned into the biggest disaster I've ever had. He was actually a producer at CNBC, I hired him in 1999 to head up a video department of a internet company I had, and he was a total disaster. He was an MBA, and I had all the, all that stuff, and I ended up having to pay him out like two years' salary to get him to leave, that sort of- Stefan: Oh, my God. Jeff: But yeah, so I just stay away from the universities. As you pointed out, if I ... I've got a number of businesses myself, so if someone's interested in working with us, I'll ask them what they do, and if they go, "Well, I just spent the last eight years in university," I'm like, "Well, you don't make very good decisions, do you? You [inaudible 00:24:00]-" Stefan: Bro, I'm going to give you a gong for that. Boom. I want you to instant replay that for the kids at home. "If you're hanging out in university the last eight years, you don't make very good decisions, do you?" Tell me why that's a bad decision in 2019. Jeff: Well, I'm sure there's probably a couple courses you could take in college that make some sense somehow. I've never seen them, though, but I ... There must be a couple, but the reason that it makes no sense in 2018, 2019, is because we have the internet now, and all information is on the internet. You don't have to pay $100,000 a year to go sit in a room with probably a unionized teacher who's never done anything his whole life, that's why he's a teacher, he doesn't know anything, and sit there with a bunch of other idiots like you, because you don't know anything, they don't know anything, and learn about socialism-type stuff pumped into you. It's a complete and total waste of time. Really, the best- Stefan: You mean it's a virgin sex therapy class, so the guy teaching, it's a virgin, but he's teaching sex therapy to everybody? Jeff: Yeah, that's one good way to put it, but yeah. It's just a waste of time. I think trade schools or something, where if you're going to become a mechanic, so you have to work on cars, so you can't really do that over the internet, I think that makes some sense, but 90-percent-plus of what you go to college for is just a complete and total waste of time that you could just totally learn much better stuff on the internet. It actually just came out, I don't know if you heard this, but Google and Facebook just said that they've removed university education as one of the requirements to work there. I think they're really slow and late to do that, but I think they're starting to realize, it's like, "Man, the people we're getting from the schools are just brainwashed idiots, whereas the young guy who's sitting at home just hacking away, and going on the internet all day, and figuring everything out, those are the kind of guys you want." Stefan: Yeah. I got a policy in my office, and when people come to me and ask for stuff, I say, "Google it, or handle it." Those are the two things, handle it, google it. Google and ... I think it was Google, Apple, Facebook, they don't need degrees anymore. I think that's been going on for some time, but it's an official statement now. Right? That's like super, super official. Jeff, let's go back to collapse of society and things like that. One thing that's common in history, and I've studied it over and over again when these collapses happen, it's usually, the people can't buy bread. The nonsense can keep going on. The ... Stefan: I've got the numbers in my book here, Hard Times, about minimum wage, and minimum wage in 1968, indexed to gold, is 103,000 dollars U.S., so you work at McDonald's, you made one cheeseburger, one hamburger, French fries, Coke, and a milkshake, you made 103 grand in purchasing power back then, indexed to gold. Same guy today making a cheeseburger, hamburger, French fries, well, he has to make 150 items down at McDonald's. They got a crazy menu. Stefan: Same guy at McDonald's makes 13,000 a year, so he's lost 90% of his purchasing power indexed to gold, and this shenanigan with the money system where the banks and the government rob people through inflation every year, and then suddenly, at some point, it keeps going, going, going, going until the average man can't buy bread. That's when the Russian Revolution happens. That's when the French Revolution happens. Why does that pattern keep happening over and over again? Jeff: Well, first, let me just mention that the reason that these jobs have gone so far down in value is because of the central bank. It's because of money printing and inflation, and that's why you pointed out those numbers in inflation terms. You have a lot of people out there today who are like, "We need to raise the minimum wage," which is, what you're saying is, "We need these people who extort us, called the government, to go out with guns and force businesses to pay us more because we can't afford to live." Well, the reason you can't afford to live is because you've had most of your stuff stolen from you by the central bank, and the central bank, by the way, is a tenet of communism, and that's why I say the U.S. is nothing even close to capitalism today. Jeff: Actual communism has already destroyed most of these people. You ask about revolutions, and yeah, it seems that people, this is one thing you can say about anarchy, a lot of people think about anarchy, "Well, if there was not government, it'd just be chaos, and horrible, and everyone would just kill each other." It's actually not true. Your average person, and this relates to your question, your average person just really doesn't want to do too much. They want to have a nice little life. They want to have a family or whatever, or they don't, but they want something nice, and that's about it. They don't want to go out and rock the boat too much. Your average person just does not want to rock the boat, and that's what ... Jeff: That's one of the problems we have today is, we have the statist system, and most people are just too scared to change it, but it appears, at some point, when you finally run out of even just food, and you can't even eat anymore, that's when finally people start to wake up, and stand up, and demand some sort of change. When I say demand, the problem is, they're demanding from the government change. What they should really realize is, the government caused it, the central bank caused it, and just break away from this system and stand up and become their own person and not be a slave to the systems, but yeah, it's unfortunate that your average person, for whatever reason, will wait until they're basically starving before they actually face the real problems in the world. Stefan: It's interesting in history, I think Putin kicked out the central banks. Is that right? Jeff: I'm not sure if Putin did, but the ruble basically collapsed. I don't think they had a central bank, definitely, at the start there. Stefan: Well, I've heard Putin's kicked out the central banks. I think it's interesting is, Hitler did that back in the day. I guess Germany was so poor, and they were so messed up, and they couldn't make their war reparation payments. They just couldn't pay, and that's how World War II started is, a bunch of people, super poor, couldn't pay their payments, boom, world war starts. It's interesting, because somehow, in the system, the political system, they go right versus left, and the right versus the left, and the left versus the right. Really, it's the same kind of thing. Nobody points the finger at the central banks. Stefan: One thing I love about America that still stands is, there's 300 million guns in the States and 300 million people, and they keep that gun amendment in there because they know that tyranny's going to come at some point. They left that in there, and if people can't buy bread, or they're really hungry, that's where those 300 million people with guns are going to rise up. Do you think we're going to see something like that in our lifetimes? Jeff: Yeah, definitely, because the U.S. is going to collapse in the next few years. It's not going to be decades, because it's so bankrupt. We have 22 trillion dollars' worth of debt now, so we're basically ... I said when I started The Dollar Vigilante that the U.S. dollar will collapse by the end of this decade, so we've got about a year left. I think we're pretty close to on track. That's how close we are to the end of this system. Yeah, we're definitely going to see collapses anyway. As far as people in the U.S. having guns, I think all people should have the right to defend themselves, obviously. I don't think anyone should be able to say, "You can't have this," if you're not hurting anyone else, and that's what government does, of course. It's very good. That's the only thing left in the U.S. that is keeping it from being complete and total carnage is that the people still can protect themselves, so the government has to be very careful about how they enslave everyone, but they've done an incredibly good job of enslaving people. Jeff: When you think about how the U.S. started, it started over the Tea Party, where it was a tax from England on tea, and that was it. It wasn't a tax on everything else, income tax, and capital gains tax, and smoking tax, and hotel tax, and food tax, and all this sort of stuff. It was just a little tax on tea, and that started the so-called American Revolution. Now you have people in the U.S. today where you have taxes that are over 50%. It's probably closer to 60 or 70% when you add up all the taxes, because literally every single thing in the U.S. is taxed today, including death. Death has a tax, and so when you die you get taxed. You still don't have people wanting to revolt. It's because, again, people are fairly, if they have a decent life, they don't tend to want to change things too much. You look at the U.S. and your average person, even poor people have a television. They probably even have a car. Even poor people have cars in the U.S. Jeff: That's how much free markets, even the poorest people are still ahead of a lot of other people in the world, and so because of that, they don't really want to have a revolt or anything like that. Plus, they don't even ... Because of all the years of government indoctrination and all the war propaganda about how they're trying to save the world by spreading freedom by bombing the entire world in the War on Terror, war of terror. It's absolutely insane, but your average person just doesn't seem to want to even break out of this system. Jeff: What's going to probably happen is, that system's going to collapse on its own because of all the debt and go into hyperinflation. Then hopefully, and you brought up about how Russia's become much more free market now. That's what happens. The same cycles that you mentioned before when you have countries, they usually start off quite small and poor. Even the U.S. was like that when it first started. Because it had a lot of freedom, it becomes quite rich. Then they get soft because of that and because of government and statism, they start doing socialism and all these sort of things which start to destroy everything. They start putting kids into the government schools and all that, and they get worse and worse until they eventually totally collapse, like the Soviet Union. Once it has a total collapse, then you can actually have free markets again. The U.S. actually, once this collapse happens, and after a few weeks or months, and that's sort of what happened in the Soviet Union as well, it takes a little bit of time, like weeks or months, definitely not years, then you can start to rebuild immediately again with free markets. Jeff: We've seen how the free markets, if you just allow people to be free, you just have to look at places like Hong Kong. That was a fishing village like 200 years ago. Look at it now. I don't know if you've ever been there. It's amazing to even go there. Singapore, even 100 years ago, was a fishing village. It's now one of the most luxurious, wealthy places in the world. Dubai was just desert. They just started doing like low-tax, no-tax sort of stuff, and all of a sudden, there you got like indoor ski parks in the hot, 150-degree desert. Once you have like all this tyranny, it will eventually collapse. Then once it collapses, you have freedom again, and then things take off again. Jeff: Really, that's the whole point of what I do at The Dollar Vigilante is, that's our actual tagline, which is, "Helping you to survive and prosper during and after the dollar collapse," because if you can hold on to some of your assets, and if you can get through this collapse that's coming, we're going to go on to amazing, prosperous times again, but if you have no assets, you'll have to work a lot harder to get back up, but if you have kept some of your assets and things like precious metals or cryptocurrencies, once everyone else gets wiped out, and all the banks close, and the currency becomes worthless, you'll be one of the richest guys around, and then you can start rebuilding the new free market. Stefan: Yeah. There's two cycles that are coming to an end. I wrote about this in my book, Hard Times. One is the 2020, which is that 80-year cycle of war. That's an important one to watch. Hard Times Create Strong Men. Then the other one is the 250-year cycle of democracy. Democracies only last about 250 years, so if the U.S. was born in 1776, it's going to be dead by 2026, so somewhere between 2020 and 2026, we know there's probably going to be an end of democracy, probably usually goes democracy into tyranny, and then tyranny back into monarchy usually is what happens. We'll see something happen. Do you think it's going to go back to tyranny and monarchy, or do you think it's going to go just to open freedom? Jeff: Yeah. A really good question. I don't know how it's going to play out. I could definitely see the tyranny part coming after this. What will likely happen, and probably be Trump will be in, his regime will be in as this collapse happens. As everyone's gets wiped out, as the banks close, as it's complete, way worse than 1929, Great Depression, someone like Trump will become sort of like Hitler-like in that sense, in that he will be the strongman who will lead the country out of this. Because of that, we're going to need more laws, and of course, Trump has been pro-asset, civil forfeitures, having the police just take whatever they want. He even came out recently and said that he's okay if the cops go and just take everyone's guns and then figure out if they did the right thing afterwards and go to court in that afterwards, so no due process and things like that. Yeah, I could totally see that we have this collapse in the next couple years. Jeff: It leads into a very sort of like Nazi Germany like sort of like tyranny type thing, and perhaps war, because the U.S. does have a massive amount of military just sitting there, and of course, if you're desperate, and if you're broke, and if your people are all crying out for something to be done, and of course, what do they always say on the news, the television programming? "Well, it's always Russia. Russia's always messing with us." Russia's not doing anything to the U.S. whatsoever, but they've been putting this into place, and they also mention China a lot. Yeah, they'll probably go into some sort of major war at some point. The key for people like us will be to stay outside of it and let them all go through this, again, if they want to go through this again, which is unbelievable. Jeff: There's lots of stories of people surviving through all of these, World War II, World War I, the Great Depression, and coming out way ahead afterwards, and even surviving quite well through it. A lot of them would go to places like Argentina or whatever for a few years, wait till all the craziness dies down with their assets and things like that. That's really the key, and to me, it's, we can't change everyone else. I wish we could, but we can't. Jeff: Actually, I don't wish I could. That'd be a huge responsibility, to change everyone else, but I wish that they would be a bit more able to see what's going on, but if they can't, really all that's left for us to do is to take care of ourselves and to keep spreading this information the ways that we can do it, but if they're going to go ahead and destroy the whole world with their statism, and their craziness, and their communism, and socialism, and fascism again, then it's really just up to us to survive and prosper through it and then try to be there to help rebuild once they get through doing it all again. Stefan: There's two interesting things that come to mind when you say that. There's the Hitler-Trump connection, which I think is super interesting. There's two things I want to allude to. There's the Hitler-Trump connection, and then there's another one, an Abraham Lincoln and Trump connection. When you look back in history, so if we go back 80 years to World War II, Germany was one of the most advanced civilizations on the planet, probably actually was the most advanced in science and medicine. They were so broke, they were so poor, they were so hungry, they were so messed up that the Nazis became popular, because Hitler was offering them a better life. He said, "Look, here's a better life. We can have a better way." People got behind that, the most sophisticated, probably, society on the planet went into absolute terror at that time. Stefan: I think there's a similar thing going on in the U.S. You've got a huge amount of people on food stamps. People are poor. People are pissed off, so they elect a strong leader. It's not ... It's interesting, like if it wasn't Hitler back in World War II, it probably would have been somebody else leading them, because the people were so poor and so messed up ... I like what Jordan Peterson said in the summary. He said, "You don't have an idea. An idea has you." That idea had Nazi Germany. I think there's a similar idea in the Brexit right now. There's a similar idea in the United States, and then that's the 80-year cycle. Stefan: If you go back 80 years before, you got the Civil War, the American Civil War, and Abraham Lincoln got shot. It's interesting, because Lincoln was a guy that wasn't totally popular with half the country. He got assassinated, and those things are all kind of floating around. You got a Trump, Trump-Hitler-like ruler there. I mean, I actually like Trump, personally, but at the end of the day, there's a sentiment in the country and a feeling around that that's Hitler-like, and then there's also an Abraham Lincoln kind of feeling where do you think he could get assassinated? Jeff: Look, I think it's possible. I think most of those sort of things, they're all actually orchestrated. JFK, for example, I believe that was Lyndon B. Johnson and the CIA who took him out. Ronald Reagan, that was the first Bush, the one who just died, George W. Bush, or sorry, George Bush, who was behind the assassination attempt, so-called assassination attempt, on Ronald Reagan. It's usually like an inside sort of a thing. It's really controlled. It's really theater. They actually keep all these things, including Putin, including little Kim in North Korea. They're all controlled by the same people, and it's just this big theater to keep people just mesmerized and watching their CNN and, "Oh, what did Trump say today," and all that. It's just no different than people in North Korea like, "What did little Kim say today? What are we supposed to do today?" Jeff: That sort of a thing, but anything is possible, but it is pretty tough to assassinate the president, as an outsider, but as an insider, it's not that hard, but they also seem to have some sort of weird like almost like protection around them. Like even George W. Bush, when he was in Iraq and the guy stood up at the media thing, and he was very mad, because Bush had been destroying his country and killing his family and all that sort of stuff, and he threw one shoe, and Bush just did the little dodge and just missed him, and then threw another shoe, and he just ... It's like, I don't know what it is with these people. They're kind of like, I don't know what it is, but it seems like he can't really get to them that way, not physically violent sort of thing. I think the only way we get rid of all of this is for people to wake up and realize that these people don't own you, and start to move away from these systems, and these people just go away and have to get real jobs. Stefan: I think one of the problems with human nature and people, I mean, you were talking about human nature and communism, where human nature doesn't work inside of communism, and then there's also another side of human nature, which is, I think humans have a hero worship, innate hero worship ability where we see someone, we see a leader, and we just want to worship them, and we want them to handle our problems. We want to have a personal Jesus. We want to have somebody we can just give it all to. Somehow, that's going to be the easy button. It'll all be solved, and then we don't have to think or deal with anything. Would you say that's true? Jeff: Oh, absolutely. That's exactly what government, it really is. That's what government always does. You look at every election. They come up there, and they give all these promises. "I'm going to solve this for you. I'm going to solve that." They never solve anything. They're just extorting you and destroying everything in the process, and making everything worse in the process, but yeah. That's absolutely the case is, your average person just won't take responsibility for themselves and just say, "I don't need this person to run this entire country for me. I can run myself," and that sort of a thing. Of course, it gets a little interesting how that would all, we've been in statism now for hundreds of years, so to actually break away from it's going to be difficult. Jeff: That's actually why we're starting up numerous sort of countries across the world now, so we've started Liberland in Europe, which is near Croatia and Serbia, which is a new sort of anarcho-capitalist country that's just being started, and there's some few others working on buying some islands, and we're going to start some totally anarcho-capitalist free sort of places there. We're also seasteading, so we're trying to start up in the ocean, start up our own little, what you call countries. None of them are really like countries, because there's no real government, but it's a place that we're going to start up that it's going to be completely free. Then through that, hopefully we could show the world, because they've never really seen it, what life would be like in a true free market. Jeff: If, all evidence seems to point to when you have a totally free market that it's incredibly good for most people. It just increases the wealth dramatically, as we've seen, as I pointed out, in places like Hong Kong, Singapore, Dubai. Whenever you have a lot of freedom, everything gets a lot more prosperous. The only sort of question a lot of people have is, "What if you have total freedom? What would happen?" We don't really have any good examples for that yet, so we're hoping to start do that in the next couple of years and try to show the world the light that, really, this governmental sort of statism system with central banks, and all these sort of things, are just absolutely terrible. The best thing for all humanity is to get rid of those sort of things and not have a belief in their authority. Stefan: Sounds like a page out of Atlas Shrugged right now. You got all the productive smart people wanting to go start their own country or start their own island. This is, it's just human nature. It's all written down in the book. It's all happened before, and here's a thought, Jeff. I don't know if you thought about this. At some point, there probably was some nice, true freedom in the Wild West, maybe, Wild West America or some place, and then at some point, the people organized themselves. At some point, there's a government. At some point, there's a king. At some point, there's a good king. He dies, and then you got his son, the bad king. Stefan: Do you think we've had freedom in history at some point, like true freedom, and then it just got consolidated into power? Because it seems to me that whether you look at a market like a real estate market, or you look at a Monopoly board, or you look at anything in life with humans, it seems that there's like always a consolidation going on. There's a consolidation at some point where somebody just ends up taking over, and we just end up in that over and over again, and the dominoes fall down at some point. We reset. Do you think we can actually exist as free people, like truly, or do you think someone's going to seize power at some point? Jeff: Well, the thing is, if you have enough people who actually believe that freedom is the way to go, and they want to do that, then no one can seize power, because there's nothing there to seize. You pointed out rightly that over history, it appears that people have always been okay with giving away their power to someone else and hoping this guy takes care of them all, and that never works out for the best, just like communism, it just never works out well. Jeff: Yeah, that's actually been the case over time is that people seem to have always sort of gravitated into these sort of things, but at the same time, when you think about life even today, we actually live in a state of complete anarchy right now. It just so happens that there's a lot of governments on earth which you can just consider to be criminal organizations who are stealing and extorting people, and kidnapping people, and forcing them to do things they don't want to do, but we actually live in a state of anarchy. Jeff: Your average person, actually, every single day of their life, pretty much lives in anarchy. When you're in your home, or you're talking to your friends, or you go to work, that's just anarchy. That's just day-to-day life, and there's no one there telling you what to do, except for a street cop or whatever, a road pirate who might try to extort you if he thinks you're going a little too fast over a arbitrary speed limit or things like that, but generally kind of already live in anarchy. Really, the important thing to understand is that the word "government," what it really means, "govern" is, the word "govern" comes from the Latin [Latin 00:46:24] which means to control, which makes a lot of sense, and the word "ment." Jeff: There's a lot of different sort of where that came from, but I lived here in Mexico, Spanish, [Spanish 00:46:34] is mind, so really, government is mind control. It's controlling people's minds to make them believe that this thing has authority over them and that it's sort of taking care of them as well. This is where we get into Stockholm syndrome and things like that, where people actually begin to really adore their kidnapper, the person who has basically kept them enslaved. I see [inaudible 00:46:56]- Stefan: I wanted to give a gong. At some point, you got to stop for me to give you a gong. I didn't know that "government" meant mind control. It's really interesting, because if you control the information, you control the thoughts, and if you control the thoughts, you control the stories. You control the stories, you control the beliefs. If you control the beliefs, you control reality. It's almost like ... In Hard Times, I talk about we almost live in a 1984 future from George Orwell, and some of it's like Brave New World, Aldous Huxley, which was Orwell's mentor. We got half of our stuff is the American Aldous Huxley Brave New World future with orgies, and synthetic music, and all these women with narrow hips that don't bear children anymore, and we have alphas, and betas, and gammas, and deltas and all that stuff, and epsilons. Stefan: Then the other part of our world is like the 1984 future where there's three gigantic powers that are always at war with each other, and it's like a Stalinist future. What do you think about those two books right now, Jeff, like 1984, Brave New World, and what we got going on right now? Jeff: Yeah. Both those guys, both, I think they went, both went to Oxford or one of those major schools. They hung out with the same people like the Bush crime family and all those, so they hung out with what you could call the elites, or some people call them the Illuminati or whatever words you want to put to these sort of secret societies that mostly sort of are in these schools like Oxford and stuff like that. They were actually good friends, as you pointed out, and it's really amazing that that long ago, what is it, like 60, 70, 80 years ago, they wrote- Stefan: It was 1945- Jeff: ... these books. Stefan: ... I think. It was like right after World War II the books came out. Jeff: Yeah, so I can't do the math. I went to government schools, but 70 years ago, whatever it was, and they've really just roadmapped the exact both ways that we're going. Actually, they're both happening at the same time. The Aldous Huxley, Brave New World, that was a lot of bread and circuses. The people would be too dumbed down, which we're seeing, through fluoridization in the water, through all the government indoctrination camps, through the television programming, all that sort of stuff. People are just watching the Kardashians and all that. Jeff: The sports, so the sports ball games, and that sort of thing, so people, that's what Aldous Huxley was saying is, people would be too dumbed down and too into these things like sports and entertainment to even notice that they're enslaved. That's what we have today, especially in the U.S. Then on the other side, there was Orwell went the other way with a bit more it's like a hard, top-down dictatorship. You can't say anything. Everything's the opposite of what it means in political speak, which is what we have today. You brought up about how there's these certain sectors of the world that always at war. East Oceania's always at war with whatever the other one was. That's what we have today. It's like, who's at war with who? This War on Terror, it's a war on a feeling. It's a war on, it's like terror is a feeling. It's like, "I was terrified when I saw that. We need a war against that." It's like- Stefan: Well, we got the- Jeff: ... "Who are you [inaudible 00:49:47]" Stefan: ... War on Drugs which doesn't work. We got the War on Terror that doesn't work. You got the War on Cancer that doesn't work. You got all these wars. They keep just funneling money into a couple dudes' pockets, and the War on Drugs makes drugs worse. The War on Cancer makes cancer worse. The War on Terror makes terrorism worse. It's pretty scary how those things just simply don't work. Jeff: Yeah, and it's all by design, like the people who really do these things know this is what's going to happen. It's just sad that people keep falling for it, but people are slowly waking up thanks to the internet. Yeah, I even saw like, who's that blonde, fairly not attractive, woman on U.S. TV who's like a really mean, nasty sort of ... Anyway. She just came out, and she just said all these wars are just stupid. They're just like, like we shouldn't be doing them. She was like a total war sort of a person. This just came out. Jeff: People are starting to wake up, but the biggest issue is, they don't know what the answer is, and so that's why they keep going back to what you pointed out, which is this false left-right paradigm, which they tell everyone that's all there is. There's left or right or somewhere in the middle and there's nothing else, but that's a very narrow range of political spectrum. That's basically statism right there, and you can have left or right in statism, but there's a whole other spectrum of just not having governments whatsoever that could really free a lot of people. It's really growing, actually, like when we first started Anarchast, Anarchapulco, Anarchapulco started five years ago. It was 150 people. We're now expecting about 3,000 people. It's doubled every year. Stefan: Wow. Jeff: My show, Anarchast, a lot of people said no one had ever watched the show, but anarchy, that's crazy. They think anarchy is throwing bombs and all this sort of stuff, but it's catching on. People are catching on to a lot of this stuff now, so we're going to see what happens. We're at an amazing time in human history, because all these things are coming to a head all at the same time. All these governments are bankrupt. The central banks are about to go into hyperinflation. Then we have people waking up and starting to realize what's going on, and then you still have all these people in the universities who think that communism's the way out, so they'll probably try to push for that. Jeff: It's just amazing, incredible time, and there's going to be so much change in the next 10 years. I don't think anyone will believe what happens over the next 10 years. I couldn't even imagine what will happen, but I know it's going to be mind-blowing what happens. It's going to be that much change. Stefan: Yeah. It's unbelievable. Now, Jeff, I got to wrap up the show, but I want to ask you a couple questions I ask every guest, because I think they're cool. If you can go back in time to, let's say, 15-year-old Jeff and give yourself a piece of advice, what's a piece of advice you'd give yourself? Jeff: Oh, man. That's a good question. I would say work on yourself. I really just started working on myself over the last couple of years. I'm like 48 years old now, and it's changed my life dramatically. I didn't deal with a lot of my past issues, childhood issues, a lot of the programming that we get from our cult, our culture they call it, but our cult, through our younger years. That still stays in your head. I think if I would have, if I could go back, I'd say, "Buy Bitcoin as soon as you hear about it," and I'd- Stefan: [inaudible 00:52:55]. Jeff: ... say, "Work on yourself," like- Stefan: [inaudible 00:52:57] man. Jeff: I'd probably also say, "Don't go to the bars that much. Don't be having a lot of drunken sex. It's a total waste of time. Try to find a good girlfriend. Try to fix yourself and work on yourself more than anything." That's what I'd tell him. Stefan: Wow. Great answer. Top three books that changed your life. Jeff: A good question again. We talked about G. Edward Griffin earlier. The Creature from Jekyll Island was one of the first books that got me looking into all this stuff that I talk about today. That was a really important to my life. I'd say The Lord of the Rings is, I read it when I was very young. I used to love to read. I was probably like 12 or something. This giant book, it's even bigger than your book there. What I didn't realize about The Lord of the Rings that is interesting, I love the book, and I loved everything about it, and it wasn't until a couple years ago I realized that that ring of power was actually a metaphor for government power. I actually looked- Stefan: Wow. Jeff: ... into it a couple years ago, and J. R. R. Tolkien, who wrote the book, called himself an anarchist, so that entire book was an allegory about the problems caused by government. Those two books are pretty good. I guess the third book that I thought was really interesting, and it's like a pamphlet. You can read it in about two hours. It's called The Market for Liberty. You can actually find it online for free in PDF format, and it shows what the world could be like without government. When I read that book, it just blew my mind, because I'm sure if you even read it, you'd go, you'd be like me, you'd be like, "Wow, I never thought things could work that way or that ... " Jeff: They actually thought about how things would work without government, so there'd be like private security companies. Well, how would that work? Well, there'd be insurance as well, so the insurance companies ... For example, like people go, "Well, how would you put out fires without the government?" Which is kind of funny, because the government rarely puts out fires [inaudible 00:54:34]. Stefan: Fire insurance. Jeff: Yeah. Fire insurance, and then the insurance companies have all this insurance money, and they'll have to pay out a ton if there's a giant fire, so they actually put out fire stuff, and fire stations, and all that kind of stuff so it can all work in the free market. I think that book really, in just such a small amount of time, can really just show how the free market can handle everything. Stefan: Yeah. Well, that's great. I always, people say, "Well, who's going to pay for the roads?" Well, you just tax cars and gasoline. If you got a car and gas- Jeff: Not even tax, right, but like the businesses would own the roads. You would never put up ... Let's say you're Walmart, and you want to put up a Walmart somewhere and there's no road there. You're going to build the road, because you want people to get to your thing. Plus, not to mention there's already all roads. All roads that already exist. I don't know why people think they'll just disappear, but obviously like gas stations would have a giant interest to making sure there was roads, so they would probably do something. The gas stations would all work together and say, "Okay, let's take 10% of all of our money that we make every month and put it into maintaining the roads." Right? It's fairly basic sort of stuff. Stefan: Right. All right. Second last question today, Jeff. What's the one thing that young people need to succeed these days? Let's talk to the snowflakes. Let's talk to the millennials, the guy with the MacBook Pro at Starbucks. What's something you want to say to h

Toby Mathis and Jeff Webb of Anderson Advisors are here to answer all sorts of tax-related questions that focus on everything from applications to forms and QuickBooks. Do you have a tax question? Submit it to Webinar@andersonadvisors.com. Highlights/Topics: Will income earned by lending money to real estate investors reduce Social Security benefits or increase taxes on them? Income vs. earned income; until full retirement age, benefits are reduced; when full retirement age, it doesn't matter what you make How do I get the 20% deduction from Trump's Tax Plan? The 199A Deduction is a 20% deduction on qualified business income, but you need a pass-through entity; QBI 20% deduction vs. 20% of taxable income are compared, and you get whichever is less When you make a contribution out of your own account to your LLC as a member, are you taxed on contributions? No. It’s a contribution to an entity that becomes your capital and money you can take back out tax-free, if you haven't used it to recognize losses What is the best business structure recommended against asset, structure, and personal protection? With any passive activity, use a passive entity - LLC taxed as a partnership/limited partner; whomever has control of entity decides what's distributed What is the best way to set up QuickBooks when I have a Wyoming Holding LLC and several other LLCs holding real estate in other states? Create one set of books with Wyoming LLC as the primary; do a classified income statement for other states What are the tax forms for 501c3? Use Form 1023 to apply to be an exempt charitable organization; yearly recording forms include 990-N If someone has rentals in their self-directed IRA, how are they impacted as UBIT - does it make a difference on the number/dollar amount? No UBIT, if it's a rental; UBIT is for an active business inside an IRA; passive income is almost always exempt Can I have recourse debt in a 401K or IRA? Can I have non-recourse debt? You can’t have recourse debt, but you can have recourse debt What are my options to re-distribute funds from one LLC in several entities to separate investments? You can always move it from one to another with no tax implication Can I write off costs for rehabbing out of the country? Yes. Worldwide profits; if it's income-producing property, you report it to the United States I lent money to a real estate flipper. She gave me a promissory note, but it wasn’t recorded with the deed of trust. Now, she is in default. Can I foreclose? Document it because you can’t foreclose until you file your secured interest Is there anything I can do to reduce my taxable income? Yes. There are lots of things you can do - make contributions to qualified retirement plans, charities, and C Corp I purchased a new computer that cost less than $2,500. Is that a straight expense in the current tax year or some weird depreciation thing? Section 179 deduction; you can buy up to $1 million and write it all off For all questions/answers discussed, sign up to be a Platinum member to view the replay! Resources U.S. Social Security Administration Trump’s Tax Plan 199A Deduction QuickBooks Tax-Wise Workshop 501c3 Unrelated Business Income Tax (UBIT) 990-T 990-N Section 179 Deduction 1244 Election Kiddie Tax Anderson Advisors Tax and Asset Prevention Event Toby Mathis Anderson Advisors   Full Episode Transcript: Toby: Hey, guys. This is Toby Mathis with Jeff Webb again. Jeff: Good afternoon. Toby: If you don't know, Jeff Webb's a tax manager here, and I am one of the partners. I'm not an accountant but I'm an attorney. Jeff is actually a CPA. This is Tax Tuesdays. If you've never been on Tax Tuesdays before, all we do is answer all sorts of questions. Let me see here whether I've got the right question field up. Look at that. We've got a bunch of people asking questions. Let's see. We'll get to all your questions, making sure you can hear us in the question and answer part. Just say, "Yes, I can hear you loud and clear," to make sure that we're getting through to everybody. If you do that, then we appreciate it. There we go. I'm getting a whole bunch of "loud and clear", "loud and clear", "loud and clear". All right, if you don't know the format if Tax Tuesday, it goes like this. We answer a whole bunch of questions. We answer the questions that people ask via the email that I'll be giving you at the end of the webinar, and we grab a whole bunch of them, and we just start answering them. If we can't answer the question or the question that you ask is too complicated, too specific, too long, then I grab it and kick it off to a staff or we answer it the following week, depending on how cool a question it is. That being kind of the overview, this is where we're at. We're going to go through these and we're going to make sure that we're answering all the questions. Let's see if I can actually make these slides advance. Look at that. That's weird. I didn't even know what that W there is. It's kind of cool. "Will the income I earned by lending my money to my real estate investors reduced my social security benefits or increased my taxes on them?" That's an interesting question. There's, "How do I get a 20% deduction?" I'm picking these literally from people's emails so don't yell at me for the typos. "When you make a contribution funds to your own account to your LLC as a member, are you taxed on contributions that you contribute to an LLC?" "What is the best structure–" and that is the weirdest thing I've ever had. "What is the best structure recommended against asset, structure and personal protection for a Multi-Family Home Investor acquiring and holding rental properties, especially if working–" and I'm going to go through each one of these. "What is the best way to set up QuickBooks when I have a Wyoming Holding LLC and several other LLCs holding real estate in various other states?" Those are our opening questions. We have a few more. We're going to go through a ton of them, and I'm already getting a bunch of questions on the Q&A portion. We will get to those but, first, we're going to knock these ones out. The first question: "Will the income earned by lending money to real estate investors reduce my Social Security benefits or increase my taxes on them?" The first thing is there's the benefit itself. In this particular question, I looked it up and I believe there were 61, so they're receiving Social Security benefits before they reach the full retirement age. Full retirement age varies between 65 and 67. The reason this is important is because, once you reach that age, it doesn't matter what you make. Until you reach that age, you will have your benefits reduced on what you're receiving. When you're pulling out Social Security early, 50 cents on the dollar once you get over $17,080.Of course, it's indexed for inflation, but it's a little bit over $17,000. I think this year it's $17,080 or something like that. What that means is, if you are lending money, then that would be counted as income. However, if you're under the full retirement age, they only count earned income. The question here is, "Until you're at full retirement age, will the income earned by lending money to real estate investors reduce my Social Security benefits or increase my taxes on them?" The answer is a big, resounding, "No." This will not hurt you in any way. Once you hit full retirement age, now we have to be worried about how much of your social security becomes taxable. When they look at your tax ability of the benefit, now we're looking at all sorts of income, everything that you make, and it's going to push it up. That's the one where it's not that you reduce the benefit but it becomes taxable. Jeff: Fairly quickly, additional income starts making your Social Security benefits taxable. They're never going to be more than–85% of your benefits are never going to be taxable. I'm saying this totally backwards. Toby: What it means is that the most they're ever going to tax your benefits is 85% of them. If you're getting $20,000 of benefit, the most you'll ever pay tax on is $17,000. You'll still get $3,000, tax-free. The sad part is you didn't get, really, a deduction when they took it out the first place. That's the old double tax that you hear about with Social Security. Anything else you want jumped into? This is kind of stuff. It makes your brain go numb so you're doing it right. You're actually asking good questions. Jeff: Just the matter of when you should take Social Security is such a huge question. Toby: Because you can start taking it. When is the earliest, is it 64? Jeff: I'm going to say 62, but maybe it's earlier depending on their age. Toby: It does depend on their age. There is a before-a-threshold and after-a-threshold. Now, I forget what the threshold is. What you do is you go to the Social Security Administration and you run your scenarios and they'll give them all to you, or you can contact us. We have folks we could send you out to that have software because it is complicated. Depending on what month you were born in and all that stuff, how many days–all of this gets factored in as to what's the earliest you could start receiving benefits. Once you start receiving the benefit, they let you receive that benefit only so long as your income is low and it's your earned income. If you're trying to get the benefit when you're 62 and you make too much money, you're going to lose a bunch of the benefits. If you start making–if you're 62, start pulling out the benefit and you have passive income, not that big of a deal; it doesn't reduce it so that's really cool. Enough of that. It makes my head hurt, Social Security. Do not rely on Social Security. There, I said it. Yeah, Social Security is one of those things that, when it was set up, the average life expectancy of people on Social Security was two years. It was really there to catch you if you're really old and didn't have any other benefits. Now, we use it almost like it's a retirement plan that's not what it was intended for. That's why it doesn't work to do it. Here's the next one. "How do I get the 20% deduction from Trump's Tax Plan?" First off, it's not Trump's Tax Plan. It's the Tax Cut and Jobs Act and it was passed by our wonderful Congress because, technically–though, they seem to forget this–Presidents don't write laws. Now that we got that out of the way, they did put this thing called a 199A Deduction, which is a 20% deduction on qualified business income from pass-through entities. Follow me here. The first thing we need to have–and I'm going to write these up–is we need to have a pass-through entity, and you can be an LLC taxed as–this is a 1065 that's partnership, a sole proprietor or as an S Corp. Those are your choices. Technically, it could also be a trust. Then, you look at other entities, S Corps and just flat out partnerships, including limited partnerships, all that fun stuff. It's passing through; it doesn't pay its own tax. Then, you need qualified business income. I'm just going to call it QBI, which just means income. Generally speaking, it's active income, but they also include real estate, if you are making money on real estate in which you participate in some fashion. The only type of real estate that's not included as far as we can tell–because they're still giving us regulations on it, but the proposed regulations make clear that real estate, rental real estates included, is if you have a commercial building and triple-net leases that you're giving out where you're not really taking on much of the risk, then they're not going to let you have the qualified business income. Then, they compare that qualified business income 20% deduction versus 20% of your taxable income, whichever is less. Why is this important? Because if I'm a sole proprietor–let's say I have $50,000 that I'm making–that I would get a $10,000-deduction under the QBI. Let's say that I take and contribute into my retirement plan–a husband-and-wife sole proprietor is still the same thing, and they both put in–what's a good number–let's just say $10,000. Then, my taxable income is actually $40,000 because I rode off–I made tax-deductible contributions into my IRA of $10,000 so I would take the lesser of that. Then, they do this wonderful thing, is they then say, "Well, if it's a special service company, we're going to put a cap on how much QBI you can actually make." It's not really QBI; it's actually your taxable income, and they say, "We'll only let you ride off so long as your taxable income is below a threshold." If you're single, that threshold is $157,500, and there's a phase-out for the next $50,000. To make your head spin, it goes from $157,000 to $207,500. That's the easiest way to look at it. If you're married, filing jointly, those numbers are $315,000 to $415,000. Jeff: What's an example of a special service? Toby: Special services are something that it is you and your skill that makes the money, and they use–it's going to be doctors, lawyers, accountants, engineers, real estate agents who are solo, somebody who–it's their skill so like a carpenter who doesn't have a bunch of staff. That's going to be a special service. If you get above those thresholds, you are done. Somebody's asking a question which is pretty interesting. A single-member LLC counts. You have a flow under you so that's when you're sole proprietor or just going under your tax return that's passed through entity so you're fine. The interesting here is that you can control your taxable income. Even on those thresholds–and when we teach this in the class, we actually go through a learning chart where we say, "If this, then this. If this, then this." If you're a special service, we just need to make sure that we can control your income, and the way you control your income is by splitting it with tax-free, tax-exempt or separately-taxable entities. Let me give you an example. If I have a C Corp and it makes a bunch of money, great, that's not income to me. I don't want to pay myself a whole bunch of money and make whatever my other business is that is or where I'm going to meet the threshold taxable because I'm losing that 20% deduction. Let's say I have $200,000 coming in. As an individual, I can get some donations and deductions into a retirement plan and I get myself underneath that $157,000 and I have another $200,000 in C Corp that I pay myself. If I leave the $157,000 as is and I don't take any money out of the C Corp, I'm going to get a 30-something thousand dollar deduction. It's just going to come off the top. It's a 20% deduction so almost like I spent. If I took the money out of the C Corp–and, by the way, that C Corp is a flat 21% tax rate now so it's going to pay 21% so it's not horrific. If I paid myself that money, I push my taxable income over the threshold, now I get 0 deduction on my qualified business income. That's why it's important. If it is not a special service, then those thresholds trigger something else. It takes us to an area where we can write off up to 50% of the W2 income or 25% of the W2 income for the business plus 2.5% of the assets. Jeff: No, you're right. I'm just jumping ahead of you. Toby: Yeah, so what we're looking at, then, is you better have a regular business that actually has salaries. If you, for example, as a sole proprietor, single, are making–what would be a good example–$200,000 and you're over the threshold, you're phasing out, you'd have to go to the second test. You're over the 157 and the second test is now pushing you at 50% of W2 wages, and you have zero so your deduction is going to be zero. You're going to get literally nothing. You might get a few dollars because you're not quite at the 207, which is the top line of the actual phase-out so you'd be phased out about 90% plus of the benefit. Now, let's say you converted that sole proprietorship to an S Corp and, instead, you paid yourself a salary, so same situation, $200,000. Let's say I paid you $75,000 of salary. Then, the QBI or the monies that's flowing through is actually the net income and net profit, so you'd subtract the 75 off. It would be $125,000. You compare 20% of that number, which I should grab the calculator, whatever that number is. Jeff: It'd be 25,000. Toby: Yeah, 25,000, and we would compare it to one-half of the W2 income, which would be 37,500. You'd get the lesser of the two. You'd get a $25,000-deduction just because of the type of entity. That's the one I have to do. Somebody just said, "I have almost 300K in real estate and other income. Is there anything I can do?" A single person? Yeah, there's something you can do because, remember, it depends on whether you're special service and then it depends on the business, and there's one last thing: It always comes down to your taxable income. "What other ways can I use to control my taxable income?" The most obvious is I split it with a C Corp, I give it to charity–and it could be my charity–or I deduct it by putting it into a tax-deferred retirement plan. For example, same situation, I'll use the $200,000 and they do a 401K. They put a husband and wife each–they're under 50. They each contribute 18,500–or, actually, the example I used was a single person so I would have to say I put 18,500 and in, and they get a 25% deduction on the 75,000. They would put in–again, I'm using crazy numbers so what would that be? About $18,750 or whatever that is–around under $19,000. I can put, in essence, about $37,000 right into the 401K, and that reduces my taxable income. The taxable income goes from 200 down to almost the threshold, and now I don't have to worry about it. It makes my life so much easier. I'm just going to get a nice big, fat deduction and I'm happy as a clam. That's how this stuff works, but if you don't do it before the year ends, you're toast. This is going to be my–this is why you need to have some sort of somebody doing tax planning. How do I get the 20% deduction from the new tax act? Very deliberately. You make sure that you have the income flowing under your return and then you make sure that, if there's a disqualifying factor that would cause you to lose it, that you look and say, "What's better? To just walk away from it and not worry about it or would I be better to take a couple of actions to allow myself to take advantage of the deduction?" It's a freebie, guys. If I make $20,000 in real estate, that rental real estate–that's my net after all my depreciation–I get a $4,000-deduction. I'm only recognizing 16,000 under this taxable income so that's a nice little benefit especially if I'm a high-income person so that's what I'd be looking at. Jeff, do you want to do this one because I'm […] barding the answers again? Jeff: No, that's alright. "When you make a contribution out of your own account to your LLC as a member, are you taxed on contributions that you contribute to the LLC?" No, actually, you're not. That is a contribution to an entity that becomes your capital, your owner's equity–we can call it a lot of things–your owner's capital in that company. That's actually money that you can take back out also tax-free assuming that you haven't used it up to recognize losses or maybe other things like that. Toby: We get that a lot. I'll give you a real-life example. Some guys were doing a syndication on apartment buildings and they were telling people, "Hey, we're going to return your capital out of the profits and you're not going to have to pay any tax on the money that you receive up to your investment." I said, "Hey, that's not really the case." Here's how it works: I can always get back my contribution, and it's tax-neutral; it means nothing. If the company makes zero, no profit, it can always give me back my money and I pay no tax, but if the company makes money, I'm taxed on my portion of that gain no matter what even if they're giving me extra. I was like–what they were doing was they were saying, "Here's a little thing. We'll make some profit. We'll just give you your money back. You want to pay tax on it?" I was like, "No, that's not how it works. You actually have to pay tax on the profit in proportion to your ownership, and it's a little bit funky." Jeff: This is a case that, sometimes, we see where a client will tell us, "I had deposits of $100,000 into my business," and what they fail to tell us is that 50,000 of it was their own money. We want to make sure that we're able to differentiate what the owners are putting into the company versus what income they're making in the company. Toby: There's a couple of questions. Somebody says, "My head is spinning." We do record this. If you're platinum, you're going to get a recording of it in your little platinum area. Somebody asks, "Is this pre-recorded?" No, it's not. We're doing it live but I'm answering the questions that people have emailed me first and, yes, we have about 50 questions that are in the queue that we're going to go through here in a second. Jeff: We don't have a three-second delay or anything? Toby: No, I don't think so. I could give you a 10-second delay. All right, "What is the best business structure recommended against asset, structure and personal protection?" I don't know what that means. I'm going to assume they mean to protect the business–for a Multi-Family Home Investor acquiring and holding rental properties, especially if working as a team member with other investors? Here's what I'm going to say: Anytime you have a passive activity–that is, when you buy the property or the cash flow and the appreciation–you're going to want to use a passive entity, meaning an LLC taxed as a partnership or a limited partner. Don't do anything else. That's it. There's maybe some really weird exceptions but I'm going to say, 99% of the time, you're going to end up using an LLC, and it's either going to be disregarded even if you have other people in or it's going to be a partnership. If anybody does anything differently, they're doing some weird stuff. If you have other investors, then it depends on your relationship with those investors. I'm not going to going to get into securities, Reg Ds and all that but, generally speaking, you're going to have it taxed as a partnership, but the most important consideration is always going to be control, who has control of that entity, because that's who decides what's distributed. That partnership agreement or the operating agreement of the LLC is really going to be important. You do not want to do this stuff half-arsed. You want to make sure that you're actually really addressing this stuff. At Anderson, we tend to be very protective of the manager, meaning we want you to have control. If it's your project, we don't want people to force you to do stuff and, on the flip side, if you're investing and you're a client, we're always going to say, "You don't want to be forced to kick in more capital against your will." Those are the things we always look at. Where does that one go? Here we go. "What is the best way to set up QuickBooks when I have a Wyoming–" and this is going to be so you, Jeff, because Jeff loves QuickBooks. "What is the best way to set up QuickBooks when I have a Wyoming Holding LLC with several other LLCs holding real estate in various other states?" I'm going to draw this. There's my Wyoming LLC. It's either going to be a 1065 or disregarded, and it holds all these cute little LLCs in other states. Let's say this is Texas LLC, Washington LLC, Nevada LLC, Georgia LLC, and they're all going to flow up to that Wyoming. I want to keep my books straight because, if you know QuickBooks, they will sell you QuickBooks for this one, this one and this one. You'll end up with four sets of QuickBooks and you'll drive yourself crazy. What do you do, Jeff? Jeff: Here's what we like to do: We like to create one set of books with the Wyoming LLC at the top being the primary set of books. Then, what we do is what we call a classified income statement where each of these four LLCs below the Georgia, Nevada, Washington and Texas where they're all kind of their own set of books within your Wyoming LLC books. All this income is going to flow from those bottom four up to the top one anyway and, while we need to keep the entities separate so we can report them that way, ultimately, what we're reporting is what's coming through the whole kit and caboodle. Toby: Yeah, we only need to worry about setting up QuickBooks for this guy right here, and then we set up these guys as classes. All that means is we have one set of books. Jeff: Yeah. You can still pull an income statement for your Georgia LLC or your Texas LLC to see what's just in that but, all in all, you still have one set of books. It makes it easier and you don't have all these inter-company transfers that you have to track. Toby: Oh my god. I'll tell you, we're horrible on that. He's giving me the look. See, here's the problem, is if you have different companies with different sets of books, you've got to close out the previous sets of books and then open up the new company. It's a process and it takes a few minutes and it's really annoying when you're trying to enter stuff into it. It's going to save you a whole bunch of time to use one set. Jeff: Yeah, then you don't run into things like, "Well, I transferred money from Georgia, the taxes that I did it, I record it in both companies." When you record them on one, you end up re-recording it in both. Toby: Yeah, and there's some fun stuff. Some of them just ask for a basic QuickBooks question, jump in the line. It's hard to set up classes in QuickBooks, not horribly, but if you don’t want to learn–QuickBooks is one of those things where you're going to spend some time with it. You just have a bookkeeper do it. Anderson does that if you want. All right. If you have questions–you guys, I know you do because there's a ton of them already in the little queue here. Here's how it works: If you want to ask a more detailed question, if you have a question that you didn't hear answered on the webinar, you can just email them on in to webinar@andersonadvisors.com, and, that way, we can put it in that queue and we can answer it just like we just did. We're going to break those out. Those will be separate little videos, each one of those, so that you get your answer. Somebody was saying, "My head was spinning about 199A." You can go back and listen to that. Better yet, you can come to some of our other webinars or come, actually, to the Tax-Wise Workshop and we go through this stuff. Spend some time with us. If you invest a little bit of time in taxes, it will pay off in spades. Other questions–some people just answered this stuff. "Can you go over the tax forms for 501c3? Jeff: There's a couple of forms for the 501c3. To apply the BF 5O1c3, there's what's called the Form 1023. It's the application to be an exempt charitable organization. Then, there's several different yearly recording forms. The 990 is the primary one where you report, among other things, what your income was, what your balance sheet looks like, your plan, your purpose, who you've dealt with. What were you going to say? Come on. Toby: Basically, if you're making less than $50,000 in your 501c3, you're doing a 990 post-note card. You're just doing a real basic here. Literally, it looks like a postcard. Jeff: They don't do that anymore. Toby: I thought they're still– Jeff: All these old people still call it postcards, but it's a… Toby: They do that in the 10… Jeff: But it's a 990N and it's filed electronically. Toby: Yeah, I know but it's the same thing. Jeff: It's still close. Okay. Toby: It's a postcard. Oh, my god. Yeah, you do it electronically now but it's really simple. You go above that, then you're going to be filing a little more detail. You get about 250, you're filing very detailed. Never do it yourself. Just hire an accountant to do it, and those guys–we do them. They're not horrifically complicated unless you have a huge void that everybody's taking money. You go American Red Cross, you can go look at the actual tax forms that everybody files because they're all public record. You can go in there and take a look at anybody and see just how complicated it is. What you'll realize is that the more the stuff they're doing, the more complicated it gets, and not doing ton it is pretty simple. We have ones that are $5 million non-profits and it's a few pages. Then, you have ones that are $1 million but they've got everybody and their mother with their hands in the thing, and you're doing a lot of reporting. That one might be more complicated. If you're a church, you don't file anything. If you're religious and you're a religious organization, you don't file anything; you file zero tax forms. Jeff: When you have an accountant do these 990s for you, they're going to ask you a lot of questions because there's a lot of questions on the form that they don't have the answer to, basically about what it is the non-profit does and things like that. Toby: All right. "If someone has rentals in their–" basically, again, if you have those tax forms, this is one other thing, is that's the tax compliance on an annual basis. If you're setting up a 501c3, you are doing–more than likely, 501c3 is an application called a 1023. If you're doing a 501C6 or some of these others, that's a 1024. Jeff: Wow, I'm impressed. Toby: Yeah, sorry. It's stuck in my head. Those are the applications for exempt status. Your business, your non-profit, is in existence and it's considered exempt from Day 1. Even though you haven't gotten your exemption approved, you actually have 28 or 29 months to get approved, and it relates back to the day that you started. You can actually do a 501c3 and be up and running in a matter of weeks if you want to. All right, from Lisa: "If someone has rentals in their self-directed IRA, how is it impacted as far as unrelated business income tax (UBIT) and does it make a difference on the number or dollar amount?" You want to do this one or would you like me to? Jeff: Why don't you do this one? Toby: All right. Self-directed IRA and it has real estate? You have no UBIT if it's just rental. That's not unrelated business income tax. Unrelated business income tax is when you're doing an active business inside an exempt organization, inside an IRA, or church, or something else, and you're running a mini-mart then they tax you on it because it's unrelated business income so not related to your exempt purpose so they tax you on it. Passive income's always going to be–I shouldn't say "always"; it's almost always exempt. I guess there's possible–if you have some royalty stuff, it's possible, if you're advertising, that the exempt organization tax, but for your IRA for rentals, don't worry about it. Here's what you worry about when you're doing an IRA with rentals: It's usually the case–this is what we've seen–is that people will oftentimes want to lever that real estate. In an IRA, you have something called–I'm just going to blank on it–unrelated debt financed income. There we go, UDFI. Unrelated debt financed income means–or just call it debt finance income–the portion of the profits that are coming from the debt. If I have a piece of property, I have a 50% loan on it, then 50% of its income is going to be taxable to the IRA. It's not allowed to have that type of loan and not pay tax on it. A 401K is allowed to have that type of loan, and it doesn't pay tax on it. It's one of those weird things where you're like, "Hey, should I be an IRA or 401K?" More often than not in our world, you're going to want to be the 401K. It has different rules, and one of the big ones is the ability to use debt. Now, here's something for you. I think I had poll questions on this. This is fun. I'm going to send a poll out to see whether you guys are listening. You guys can answer this, and what it is, "Can I have recourse debt in a 401K or IRA?" Let's see about that. Isn't this kind of cool? Jeff: It is cool. Toby: We're going to see whether or not you can have recourse debt in a 401K or IRA. For those of you who don't know what recourse debt, recourse means, "I can go after you. I have recourse, and I can go–" basically, a personal guarantee, personal guarantor. We got a lot of people voting. I will share the results with you once we're there. Jeff: What if Lisa is flipping instead of renting in an IRA? Toby: Then, we don't have any cases on it. Jeff: Great. Toby: What we always say is do five at a max. Here's the thing: If you disqualify an IRA, the whole thing's disqualified. What I want to do is if I'm flipping in a self-directed IRA, I want to make sure only that money is in that IRA so if I have a disqualifying event, it's only for that one little IRA. So, I may have two or three IRAs. Good news: People are listening. That's always good news. We have about–50% of you guys voted. I'm going to go ahead and close this thing in about a few seconds. Let's see. There, I closed it and now I'm going to share it with you. Do you want me to tell you the answer? You cannot have recourse debt. 36% of you guys just disqualified your plans, and you have a 10% penalty plus it's all taxable. Sorry to say that you just destroyed your plan, but you cannot have recourse. This is half the fun. What's the next question I could ask you? I could throw up another poll at you. Let's see. Get out of there. Let me see if I can do this. All right, what's the next one? Here's a better one: Now that you know you can't have recourse debt, I'm going to launch a new poll. "Can I have non-recourse debt in an IRA or 401K?" This is where accountants and tax lawyers have– Jeff: Disagreements? Toby: No, this is where it's so much fun. Are you kidding? Let's see. Somebody's saying, "No." What is non-recourse? Non-recourse means you can't hold the person responsible. There's no personal guarantor. You can only go after the property so the property is truly asset-based lending. There's nobody on the hook for that loan if it goes south. A typical non-recourse loan in a plan–this is kind of cheap because it's going to give you the answer–is they're going to look at the other plan assets and so they're going to secure the other plan assets. They're going to make sure that they're not over-leveraged. In other words, they're not going to give you a 99% loan to value; they're going to give you a 60% loan to value or 50% loan to value. We'll see if you guys still get the answer even though I just basically gave it to you. This is fun. I'm just going to stop this one and I'm going to share it because the numbers are pretty done. It looks like 86% of you said, "Yes." Can I have non-recourse debt? 86% of you are correct. You can have recourse debt. Here's the trick: In an IRA, that non-recourse debt creates debt finance income so you have to pay tax on the portion that you're making but it doesn't disqualify your plan. In a 401K, you do not pay the debt finance income, and some of you guys are not too pleased with me for that, but I'm getting giggles out of it. That's enough with polls. I could have polls all day long and we would have a lot of fun. Last one: "I hold some assets in LLC–"and, by the way, this is the last one from people that have shot it in but it says, "You don't pay tax until withdrawal, correct?" No, if you have debt finance income, you're paying it in the year in which the debt finance income–you actually file a 990 T. You actually have to report it. "I have some assets in an LLC that is a day-trading entity." You're brave. "If this generates sizable profits–" I just love traders. "What options are out there to re-distribute funds from one LLC in several entities to the separate investments?" You can always move–if it's yours, it's like–an LLC is a safe so I can always move it from one safe to another, no tax implication. This is one of the questions we had earlier. I can always put money in, take it out. Somebody was talking about an opportunity zone. The opportunity zone's awesome. It's where you take capital gains and invest them in the opportunity zone. It's actually called the growth opportunity zone, and you defer the tax on that income. The max amount you can defer that tax is until 2025 right now. Then, you get a portion of that as non-taxable. Then, the growth–if you leave it in the opportunity zone for 10 years, all that growth and the gains on the investment itself are tax-free, and that's pretty interesting. Growth opportunities, we'll be talking about that as they give us more information. Somebody says, "Can you take the poll down?" I thought I did. I'll make sure polls, hide. There we go. Sorry about that, guys. Everybody's telling me, "Flip off the poll." I'm flipping it off. I like your opportunity zone discussion, and think about a bank, and loan out funds to other LLCs you use. You could do that. Then, it's interest unless it's all you. In which case, you don't charge yourself interests. "I am told that funds in an LLC are much like funds in a savings account. I pay taxes on the gains my funds make, and funds can be withdrawn at any time." That is true as long as it's disregarded or taxed as a partnership. I want to make sure that we're very clear. LLCs that are partnerships are disregarded. Yes, you can do that. If it's an LLC taxed as a corporation or LLC taxes in S Corp, little bit different. An S Corp probably has a huge difference. Jeff: Yeah. You can even pull securities out–even if it's a partnership–pull securities out and put them somewhere else. Like what Toby's saying, if it's an S Corporation or corporation, if you pull securities out of a corporation, you have to recognize gain immediately. Toby: It sucks. Appreciated assets is considered wages, right? Use an example here. Jeff: We had a client who had a couple of $100,000 of securities in a corporation, wanted to move it somewhere else, and we tried to explain to him that if he pulls securities out that are now worth 250 and he's only got a basis of $100,000, he's going to have capital gains of $125,000 in that corporation. The corporation will pay gains and then, for you to take it out, that's got to come from somewhere else, so either a salary, roan repayments or dividends. It doesn't work out well. Toby: No Bueno. The other one is people that real estate in an S Corp and then they need to take it out to refile it or something. All that appreciation is wages. It's horrific and so we have oftentimes say, "Hey, if you're going to do this S Corp, it's cool." The capital gains still flow down to you; it's just that you can't take it out. You've got to leave it in there. Jeff: Can we  re-running into that more and more where the banks are running to take it out of the LLCs and stuff? Toby: They got horribly hosed during the downturn of people doing weird stuff. What happened is I would do a financing in an entity. Say I'm the owner, and then I would sell Jeff my ownership and the entity and the bank had no idea that I'm no longer the guy that they were dealing with that they gave the loan to in their mind and had sold his interests. They had no idea. One day, Jeff comes back in and says, "By the way, I'm the owner of this LLC, not the guy that you loaned the money to." No Bueno. They don't like that. All right, we got a lot of questions to go through so if you have questions, you can always email them in. I'm going to start going out through these things, and we have questions from almost an hour ago. People were asking questions before we even started. "I did a cash-out refinance from my residence to invest in private lending or to buy rentals. California only allows 150,000 to deduct interest expense for residence." That's actually the new federal rule. "For the portion that is more than 750, can I deduct the interest as investment expense?" All right, so here's the rule–and, Jeff, I'm [...] barding, but I deal with this stuff all the time. Your new limit is–unless you owned your house prior to–during 27 and perhaps during the first quarter of 2018 if your loan was already in process before December 15th of 2017, don't try to remember this stuff; just know that if you're in that weird period, you may qualify, then you're up to a million, but it has to be for acquisition indebtedness. Acquisition indebtedness means, "I bought the house," or, "I improved the house." That's for the mortgage person to be deductible on your Schedule A, which is your itemized deduction. If you're using the money for something else, then it has to be deductible on that something else. For example, if I am buying rental real estate, then the interest–you'd be writing off the interest on your Schedule A, essentially, against the income from that rental real estate. You are no longer writing off your mortgage interest personally as the individual residing in it; you are now writing it off as part of an investment. Anything you wanted to add on that? Jeff: No. If we're talking about buying a piece of investment property like you're just going out and buying more land, hoping that it'll go up in value, then it would be considered investment interests and go back on Schedule A. Typically, we want to keep it–if it's in a business interest or rental property, something like that, we want to keep it there. Toby: Again, the Canadians have been dealing with this for a lot longer than us guys. You cannot write off interest if it's not for your home in Canada unless it was used for an investment. People actually have to go re-file their houses, they get all the cash they could, pay down their house, re-file it so they could show that they used it for an investment so they could actually write off the interest. I think it was called Scotts transactions. It's weird. Hey, I'm not Canadian. This is another question: "Say I deducted a newsletter subscription in 2017 but received a refund for it in 2018. Do I need to add this back as income in 2018 or no?" If you wrote it off and it means your basis is zero, give you the money back, what does that sound like? Jeff: Income. Toby: Income. It is income. At the same time, I see people saying, "Hey, what if I reimburse myself from my cell phone out of two companies?" Now, each reimbursement represents–I said, "Well, you can reimburse yourself up to your expense. Anything above that is income so it becomes taxable." Fun stuff. Yes, you would report it, but only–your cash basis tax first. You report it in the year that you received the money back. "You've saved me so much money. I call y'all my friends." I love that when I get stuff like that. That's not really a question but I'm going to repeat it because it's better than, "Flip off the poll." Not that I had too many of those, but I had a few. "Can I write off costs for rehabbing out of the country?" This sounds like something for Jeff. Can you write off? US taxes. Jeff: Yeah, you do have investment in another country. Toby: Worldwide profits, baby. Yes. Jeff: If it's income-producing property, you're going to be reporting that to the United States. Any expenses you have on that property will go towards that also. Toby: If you're rehabbing a property, it sounds like dealer activity and active business. I may be little interest–I probably want to be looking at structures in the Bahamas if that's where it is. I'd be looking at something that's taxable there so you don't get into treaties and all sorts of fun stuff. "Do I have to pay $800 off the top to the franchise tax board when we start our corporation?" Jeff: No, California has an exemption to corporations that are first year only. Toby: Yeah, and that $800–this is, if you like tax cases, there's Veritas 1, there's Veritas 2, there's Northwest Energetic Services, there's Bakersfield Mall, and they're all versus your friendly–what is it called? Not the franchise tax. No, it's whatever. I forget what they're called. Jeff: We know what it's called. Toby: Yeah. Anyway, I'll remember it as soon as I could. I'm trying to think about it, but they keep suing the Board of Equalization, the BoE. It's $800 and they say that's the minimum tax, but they say, really, it's a fee because if it was a tax, then it'd be an unconstitutional tax because it's not attached to the income. They keep trying to call it a fee. They lose and then they change it a little bit and they lose again. That's just an aside. California is kind of evil. "We live in Washington. We have a Nevada C Corp which fully owns a watch and LLC and employs the kids. What are the recommended strategies to optimize for college tuition?" Wow, so you're doing a great thing. You are going to run them through payroll. When you're applying for things like scholarships, if it's going to be based on income, you're going to show that income. You're going to show those returns, but those kids should–most of that income is going to probably be underneath the standard deduction. Right now, it's $12,000. They're going to pay zero and they're going to pay very little on any amount over that. Plus, if you're smart, you're putting some of that money in a Roth IRA and they're never going to pay tax on that. It's smart to do this with your kids. If I paid tuition out of my tax bracket, it's coming out of my highest tax bracket. If I'm in the highest tax bracket, that's 37%. If my kids pay for their tuition and are working for the company, and they have to do something, then they pay at a third tax bracket, which, quite often, is zero. I do this with my own daughter. Last year, I think we paid $500 in taxes total for the year when it cost me $8,000 if I was doing it, but she has to do something. She has to actually work for the company and do stuff for the company. Other stuff you could do to optimize is dump it into–defer it into a retirement plan. If you want to do a 401K, they can put the first 18,500 of their income and they can defer it. You're still reporting it. I'm not sure it'll have an impact on scholarships or not. I have not seen it have much of an impact, but that's what I'd be doing, is the benefits far outweigh anything with this on the scholarship side. It is huge. Here's one: "I lent money to a real estate flipper. She gave me a promissory note, but it was not recorded with the deed of trust. Now, she is in default. Can I foreclose?" When you loan money to a flipper with no deed of trust, that's called a gift. I'm just kidding. You need to make sure that you're documenting it. You cannot foreclose until you actually file your secured interest. You got to have it filed and then, yes, you can actually start foreclosure proceedings if you want, if they don't pay it. You definitely want to make sure that, when you're giving notes–there's something called "first in time, first in right". You want to make sure you know it's recorded and you have your deed of trust against that house. Otherwise, somebody else could go slap theirs on first. There's also places where they get priority. In Nevada, for example, the HoAs get super liens. They actually step in front of the primary lender. It sounds weird but it's true. You want to make sure that you're documenting your loan and covering yourself as best you can, make sure that you're getting a personal guarantee and, if they have any other assets, you may want to slap a lien on those, too. All right, "With a new company, there's quite a lot of expense reimbursements. Since I don't have a lot of revenue yet, I haven't paid it back. Is it okay to carry it over a year or should I go ahead and pay it back even though I'm still in the red?" Jeff, this sounds like you unless you're zoning out there. She has a new company, she has lots of expenses, she doesn't have any money that she's made yet, so should they pay it back, carry it forward? "Can I pay myself, reimburse myself in the future year?" The answer is yes, you could reimburse yourself whenever. The question really becomes, "Do I want to capture all my startup expenses in the first year?" Jeff: Yeah, I think you do. You want to capture as many expenses as possible even if you're not getting directly reimbursed right away. Toby: Yeah, you have two choices whenever you fund a company. You can fund it with your cash and then it's going to have a loss and it's going to carry that loss forward if it's a C Corp. If it's an S Corp, you can actually take that loss. I've contributed $20,000. That's my basis and it loses 20,000 and, technically, I'd have a $20,000-loss with an S Corp. Usually, we're seeing this in C Corps, and you just carry it is a payable and a receivable. It's payable to you, you would say, "Hey, it owes me some money. It's kind of like this." I always use Krispy Kreme in my examples. I go out for Anderson and I bring in 12 dozen Krispy Kreme for a meeting or something, and the others say, "Hey, I'll pay you back but we don't have the money right now." It doesn't mean that it goes away; it means that I'm sitting there, waiting for them to pay me back. If they pay me back in two years, all it means is they can't write that off as a deduction until they pay me back so they're not going to have a loss if I'm carrying it as an IOU. If I give them the money to buy the doughnuts and they buy the doughnuts, they get the loss right away even though they haven't returned my money to me. They could return that money to me at any time. For me, it's always going to be tax-neutral. "Do I need to be on payroll with my real estate income or can I just take distributions from my LLC?" This is regarding Trump's 20% deduction on the plan. If it's investment real estate, you never have to take a seller as long as it's rental real estate. If it's flipping and it's in an S Corp, then you would have to take some salary if you're taking distributions. I don’t want to twist it. This sounds like it's just an LLC with rental property. You do not have to take it. The 20% is for 2018 onwards. If they think that it has a sunset clause, the end of 2025. Is it the end of 2025 that it ends? Jeff: Yeah. Toby: Yeah, so 2025. Here's a really long one. Boy, this is a really long one. Let me see if I can condense this. "I have a Wyoming LLC that is the sole member of a second LLC that is disregarded entity. I funded the Wyoming with 8,500 and the Wyoming funded the other bookkeeping QuickBooks balance sheet shows an owner equity 100% of 16,500. This is offset a balance sheet with capital contribution. While this does end up with net equity of 85, it gives the impression of the equity, which is incorrect. Is there a different way of handling?" Do you see what they're doing? Jeff: This is what we call–anytime you have combined financials or tax returns, you're going to have a–you may have a payable from one to the other where you've lent money to the other company, but when you do the combined financial or tax return, this is what you call an eliminating entry. If you lent $8,500 to one, those two entries are going to offset each other and it's going to be zero on your tax return. Toby: He's looking at it and saying, "Hey, they took the eight that I put into the second and added it to the 8,500 that I put in the first," and it's only 8,500 and then 8 went to the second LLC. Jeff: Yeah, I think you just need to clarify that it was the same money that– Toby: We're doing it and we'll take a look at it. We'll grab that name and, when we can, I'll print this out. "Can SMLLC, single-member LLC, disregard an entity under an MMLLC, which is a multi-member LLC taxed as a partnership, be converted to a single, multi-member LLC taxed as if–" you guys are killing me, "And would the tax changes be implemented?" What you're really saying, Billy, is, "Can I spin off a single-member LLC, make it into a multi-member LLC and change it to an S Corp?" The answer is yes. We just have to make sure that we follow the S Corp rules, which means there's got to be natural persons owning it, resident aliens–if it's somebody from out of the country, that they reside in the United States in certain trusts and even certain single-member LLCs. All right, to the question about–this refers to qualified business income. Sorry for lack of a better–no, Janet, you've already got it. "Since rental real estate is included for the 20%, are you also required to be a rep for that to be true?" No. You automatically get it. "High-tech network engineer, does it qualify as special services?" If you're not a network engineer and it's just you, then I would say probably yes. If you have a company and it's not so much you but your company has its own–like it's lots of people and it's just known, then the answer is no. Then, you're not. Jeff: Yeah, there were some specific carve-outs. I think the architects got a carve-out of this, but there's a few industries that have been specifically exempted from those specialized industries. Toby: I'm not sure but software engineer–I would say that if it's just you, chances are going to be under the special services. "When I file taxes, the taxes for the rental property show up on my tax showing a schedule form that is Schedule E. I almost $300,000 with my real estate and other income as a single woman." I think we already talked about this one. "Is there anything I can do to reduce my taxable income?" Yes, Janet, you can make contributions to qualified retirement plans. You can make contributions to charities, including your own. You can make contributions to C Corp if it has a business relationship. There are lots of things you can do or, if you have anybody that you need to pay salaries to like kids or somebody that's working with you, that would be something else you could do to lower the taxable income. "If you were writing out another slide, it's not showing up on my computer." Sorry, Sir. I think that's where all they go. "What about an IOL as a tax-deferred compensation for my property management income?" That would not work. An IOL is tax-neutral although you can do tax-deferred compensation where it's taxable to the entity and it's not taxable to you under certain circumstances. If I do tax-deferred income like, "Hey, I'm taking deferred compensation," I need to be at a losing. Usually, non-compete is going to be the thing that makes it work. We use these especially in the non-profit world where somebody says, "I don't want to be paid; I want to work, but I do want to get paid eventually for all the work I'm doing now. Rather than pay me this year, pay me when I'm 65 and maybe I wipe it out or not, but as long as I have a non-compete with that–" it's saying, "Hey, basically, if you go work for somebody else in a competing industry, you lose all that deferred compensation." You should be good. "I purchased a new computer that cost less than $2,500. Is that a straight expense in the current tax year or some weird depreciation thing?" Dean, it's called a Section 179 deduction. You can buy up to $1 million, you're good. You can write it all off. Otherwise, that would be depreciated. They also have 100% bonus depreciation, so we're going to catch it no matter what. Bonus depreciation is, if it's less than a 15-year property, you can write it off this year. You're not required to. Somebody says, "Is 199A or that 20% a 20% tax deduction or a 20% reduction?" No, it's a 20% deduction against your qualified business income. The net effect could be much more than 20% depending on your tax bracket. If you're not in a high tax bracket, then the net effect won't be huge. If I'm in the highest tax bracket in a state that's taxing me where I'm at 50%, that 20% deduction could be worth a ton. It could be worth significant amounts especially if I'm in a company that's not a specialized service and I meet the requirements. I could have hundreds and thousands of dollars of qualified business income being exempted, and that could be worth hundreds and thousands of dollars to me from a tax standpoint. We already did this one. Somebody who had their spinning left. You can go in bite-sized pieces, guys. We're going to break these things down, and I understand that we're going through fast, but that's half the fun. We're not dwindling around here. "My self-directed IRA received a K1 for net rental loss for a passive investment of $50,000. Do I need to file a 990 T to show loss? Does the IRA custodian sign the return or can I sign?" Jeff: Here's what happens: If your IRA is a partner in a partnership, that partnership is required to issue a K1 to all of its partners. That doesn't mean you have to do anything with the K1 in your IRA. You're not going to recognize any taxable income until you actually start taking money out of the IRA, especially since this is a rental property we're talking about. Toby: Cool. Hey, this is a really good one. By the way, if you ever do a 990 T and it says self-directed IRA, your custodian does have to sign, and they like to charge you for that. "401K, 401K." "I have a C Corp with accumulated losses and would rather close it than repurpose it. Is there a way to direct the loss of my personal taxes? Is it possible?" The answer is yes. It's called a 1244 election. It should have been made when you issued your stock. If Anderson did your C Corp, we already did that because I do it with every single corporation. You can then write off as a single person up to $50,000 or up to $100,000 if married, filing jointly, and then it could be used to offset even your W2 income. Jeff: Going back to one of the earlier questions, this is one reason we want to start recognizing reimbursements and stuff as early as possible to establish those debts to you early on. Toby: Yeah, I had this happen and we actually had–the one time this was ever audited was because this accountant refused to give him a $67,000-deduction. It was one of our clients who was a trader who was ready to launch and go into his business and then his employer made him an offer he couldn't refuse and gave him a whole bunch of our money. He took a $67,000-loss. He had never made a dollar in the corporation. We went under audit. We won. Yay. It took two seconds because it was a single letter and we gave him the law, and it's a statute. The IRS is just a policing agency. If there's a statute that's clear, they don't sit there and fight with it. I think it was a $38,000-reimbursement–what do you call it–refund. Awesome first-timer. We love first-timers. Thank you for joining us. "I want to receive an invite, a reminder to a different email." We can give you that. You can always use this when you register for the Tax Tuesday. Just put in your other email. "Interested doing sandwich lease options. What is the best business structure and what document can you provide to protect myself from sellers suing me if a tenant or buyer stops paying rent or if a tenant or buyer trashes the home?" That's a tough one. You're literally leasing it and then re-leasing it with the right to buy. Let me think about this one. How am I going to do this? I'm going to be doing that through an entity. The way you protect yourself is to keep very little amounts of asset in that entity so that if you're sued, it's not you; it's the entity itself, and the entity doesn't have much to lose. That's a tough one. I tend to stay away from stuff like that. I want to buy the property and then you do a lease option in an LLC. Jeff: Make sure you have insurance. Toby: Yup, make sure you have insurance, too. That could happen so the tenant trashes the place and somebody else says, "Hey, wait a second." That's why there's always risk. What you do is you just keep it to a low. "Is it hard to set up classes in QuickBooks? Does Anderson do this?" It's not hard and, yes, we do it. "How long does it take to set up a class in QuickBooks?" Jeff: No, you'd have to ask bookkeepers. Toby: Jeff's such an accountant. Yes, it's actually very easy. Jeff: Actually, the bookkeepers are really good at it. They do it all the time. Toby: It's literally all you're doing, is setting up another class. It's almost like a revenue class so you might have revenue that comes in from plumbing and then selling products in your plumbing business and then, "Hey, I have one that's a consulting," and that might be another class. It literally takes two seconds. "What if the Wyoming LLC owns a C Corp which owns an LLC?" I don't know what that means, but what we mean is–I imagine for the 199A. We're just going to look at it is the C Corp owns an LLC that's not going to be qualified for the 20% deduction. The LLC that owns the C Corp, if it's doing other activities, might qualify for the deduction. Here's the problem: In the qualified business, the part I didn't tell you about is what is qualified business income. Dividends, interest, capital gains are not included in that definition so if you're issuing interest from a C Corp to the LLC that flows under your return, you're not going to be getting the 20%. "If you set up QuickBooks with a single entity and use class as a separate income, can you also print a balance sheet by class?" Jeff: Yes, you can do it if the balance sheet is also classified. Toby: Okay. See, we're good. We're getting there. We only have about 200 more questions to go. I'm just teasing you. We've gone through about three-quarters of them. "What is Jeff's last name?" Webb. "I have a rental company. This will be my first year doing taxes. What can I expect to pay on my capital gains? What are some determining factors?" Isaac, if you're a rental company and you're selling–like if you have capital gains, it's going to be depending on whether you sold it within a year or after a year. If it's less than a year, it's going to be ordinary income to you. If it's over a year, it's going to be taxed with either 0%, 15% or 20%. If you make over 250,000, you're going to get to add no another 3.8% and then whatever your state tax is. What are the determining factors? How much you make. If you're married, filing jointly less than 77,000, your capital gains rate is zero. All those things come into it. You can always write us at webinar@andersonadvisors if you want to ask specific questions. "I'm in the process of setting up QuickBooks account for my C Corp. I have a construction business and a hair salon that are DPA-ed as C Corp. I am flipping single-family residents in Wyoming LLC? I have sub-expense and sub-income accounts for those." This is getting long. This one, we may want to answer next week because this is kind of cool. It's talking about sub-accounts. I'm just going to table that one unless you want to jump on it. Jeff: No, I think there were a couple of issues in there. Toby: Yup, "But you don't pay tax until the withdrawal, correct? That was just with regards to the IRA." Steve, you do need an account and, yes, you don't pay the tax until you withdraw, add up in IRA. If you have unrelated business income tax or debt finance income out of an IRA, you'd pay it in the year that it was generated. "Can I set up an entity to receive W2 income and max out top […]?" Yes, but you can't do it out of a self-directed IRA. The reason being is that you are a disqualified person so you cannot do that unless you do something called a ROBS transaction, and that's going to be a major topic for another day. That's if your IRA invests in a C Corp that you set up and there are ways to do it and then you could actually pay yourself, so there. "I recently rolled over a 401K to equity trust IRA account, lending funds to other investors charging interest. Is interest income taxable to the IRA?" No, you can do that all day long, and equity trust is having to sign all your docs. My recommendation would be to set up your own 401K so you can sign the loan documents. Somebody says, "How many times a year can you roll over from 401K to IRA or reverse rollover?" It depends on whether you're doing a direct rollover. Jeff: You can do a trustee to trustee every day if you want, meaning you're going from TDM trade to Bank of America. You can do those as long as it's directly being transferred. You can pull the money out once to yourself once every 12 months, and it's a rolling 12-month period. If I pulled it out today, then I wouldn't be able to do it again until next October. Toby: Somebody asks, "Can I roll individual stock holding into Roth trading account if the current value is under the 550 limit, and how?" The answer would be, really, no; you're going to have to liquidate the holdings, open up a new account in the Roth IRA and then contribute the 5,500. It's a pain in the butt, I know, but I don't make the rules. It's this whole Bank Secrecy Act and all this stuff since they flew planes into trade centers. "Is the old rule dead on personal residences two out of five years?" No, that's still the rule, and we still use it like crazy. That's exception 121. Jeff: Yeah, they were talking about making it five out of eight years, and that got thrown out so it's still the old two-out-of-five rule. Toby: Yup. "Do my startup costs carry over two years if my net was negative?" It's actually 20-something years. Jeff: 15 years. Toby: 15 years now? Nate, you can carry forward your startup costs. Is it 15? Jeff::Yeah. Toby:  "Hey, wait a second. I have an S Corp. They keep charging me the 800 fee ever

Chris Greenwood has had an amazing career as a musician with his band Manafest. But jamming out on stage as a Christian rock star isn't enough for this high achieving entrepreneur. In addition to selling a ton of records he has built an amazing online business. So amazing he currently makes $50k+ PER MONTH from all of his digital products. Here's his story. We have to start with the fact that Chris was a musician first, then became an online entrepreneur. Chris: I actually started as a network engineer before I even started my music career. Doing the 9-5 and driving an hour each way to work. I am still doing music full time, but I kind of got tired of constantly traveling. My streams had gotten big enough where I didn’t have to tour. Then I learned how to market my music online. This led to me creating courses to teach other musicians how to do the same. I started using Facebook ads and YouTube ads to sell my music with upsells on posters, T Shirts and other merchandise. When I would travel I would check out local thrift stores and look at books. I found a book called The Millionaire Messenger by Brendon Burchard for $0.50. This book taught me that I could teach what I know and get paid for it. This led to many more books that taught me all about marketing and selling my products. Jeff: Once I get ideas and start implementing I am looking for immediate success. But what usually happens is crickets. It takes time. But when you do get that first check no matter how small it is still exciting. So at what point did you feel like ‘oh wow, this is real?” Chris: I learned a lot from a lot of different sources, books, podcasts, etc. It did take some time to start implementing things. I remember creating my course and putting it up on Udemy. I didn’t make a lot of money in the beginning, but I was selling my course and making money. It took off from there. My wife is an artist and she teaches others artists how to sell and market their art. She also started with courses on Udemy and Skillshare. Her name is Melanie Greenwood and you can find here here: https://visioncity.biz/home18695682 We have so much more freedom now which allows us to spend time with our daughter. It’s not always easy, you have to work for it, but it is so worth it to push through. Jeff: What was the evolution of the things you offered and the ways that you were able to monetize the online business. Chris: When I took my course off of Udemy and started hosting on on my own platform, then I increased my prices and my value. Then I started getting around people that were doing similar things. I hired them to help me get to where they were. Get into that coaching program or mastermind. Shorten your learning journey. You will get there faster and avoid some of the mistakes. You can find Chris here: https://www.manafest.com/gohttps://smartmusicbusiness.teachable.com/  

Show Summary: Tech Abilities is back in the studio and Serina, Andy and Jeff talk about Smart Devices. From Smart Switches, Smart Thermostats, Smart Smoke and Gas Detectors, Door Bell Cameras and the Google Hub. But is the Apple Home Kit App good enough? Check out this entertaining and informational look at the devices watching you and putting some convenience into your life. How did we get by without it? Hmmm. You can follow Tech Abilities on twitter @AbilitiesTech Contact: Tech Abilities is part of the Blind Abilities Network and be sure to check out all of our shows and podcasts. Thank you for listening! You can follow us on Twitter @BlindAbilities On the web at www.BlindAbilities.com Send us an email Get the Free Blind Abilities Appon the App Store.   Full Transcript: Tech Abilities: Hey Portal, You Watching Me? Smart Home Devices and the Smart Shadow Enters the Thought Bubble Serena Gilbert: It's called the Facebook Portal. Does anyone here trust Facebook? Andy Munoz: Other than the fact that we're tech nerds ... Serena Gilbert: Nope, I don't think I'm going to upgrade, and both of you did in a week. Jeff Thompson: Yeah, an accessible thought bubble. Serena Gilbert: Do you have a smart phonograph, Jeff? What the heck is that? Andy Munoz: Google's your friend, look it up. Serena Gilbert: So, you want a smart shadow. Jeff Thompson: Yeah. Andy Munoz: Having these smart devices, they are truly game changers. Serena Gilbert: Silver. Andy Munoz: Space gray. Jeff Thompson: Gold. Andy Munoz: I smell smoke. Is your Nest going off, Jeff? Serena Gilbert: See what happens when you tell me I'm getting fat? Andy Munoz: I said you could grow into that Blind Abilities t-shirt. Jeff Thompson: Boom, music comes on and six sheets of toilet paper pop out. Serena Gilbert: Exactly. Serena Gilbert: All right, you guys ready? I'm not going to count down. I'm going to make you look for when we start [inaudible]. Good luck. Andy Munoz: Three, two- Serena Gilbert: No. Andy Munoz: One. Serena Gilbert: Nope. All right, I will count down. I'll be nice. Three, two, one. Welcome back to Tech Abilities. This is Serena Gilbert and I am, of course, joined with Jeff Thompson and Andy Munoz. Jeff, how are you? Jeff Thompson: Sorry. Serena Gilbert: Apparently, Jeff is choking. Jeff Thompson: I'm doing great, Serena. Glad to be back. Serena Gilbert: We haven't been around for a while now, but we are back and we've got a great episode. Andy, how are you? Andy Munoz: I'm good. I'm good. I'm actually glad to be back. Serena Gilbert: And, Andy's not choking for the record. Andy Munoz: Nope. No choking here. Jeff Thompson: Ouch. Serena Gilbert: Ouch. You'll be okay, Jeff. You're a big boy. Have you guys heard about the latest news about Facebook? Jeff Thompson: Oh, do tell. Do tell. Serena Gilbert: Apparently, they have a new smart device coming out called the Facebook Portal. Jeff Thompson: I'm got a feeling somebody's watching me. Serena Gilbert: Right? Andy Munoz: Cue the Michael Jackson song. There we go. Serena Gilbert: Perfect timing, Jeff, as usual. Everything about it is ironic from the name of it to all the press surrounding it. It's called the Facebook Portal so theoretically I know what they were going for there. It's like you're in the same room, but does anyone here trust Facebook? Jeff Thompson: How about you, Andy? Do you trust Facebook? Andy Munoz: You know, can you trust anything, honestly? Jeff Thompson: Right. Andy Munoz: Yet, we still use it. The way I look at it is I don't put something out there that I don't want somebody to know 'cause even with locking it down and doing all that stuff, there's people, they want it ... Where there's a will, there's a way. Don't put nothing out there that I don't want nobody to see. Serena Gilbert: The weird thing about Facebook is there's already a theory that we think Facebook listens to us when we're not in it. We've tested this. Start talking about childcare and all of a sudden, you're going to have every childcare center ad in your newsfeed that you ever wanted to see. Andy Munoz: Yep, yep. Serena Gilbert: There's something to it. I really do think that there's something that they're listening to. Imagine putting that in your living room where they're not only able to listen but see what you're doing. Jeff Thompson: Yeah, we could really paint this into a corner if we want to, but when you look at other companies such as Target and Home Depot and various other ones on the internet that have had hacks exposing people's identification and personal information, it's inevitable that stuff like this is going to happen, I imagine. It seems like when something like this happens to Facebook, it seems like it really gets a lot of attention. Andy Munoz: Usually, if you have a big name and something happens ... We've all got these high expectations so then they lose credibility, but it really can happen to anybody. Serena Gilbert: Well, let's hear about the specs on this Facebook Portal and then tell me what you guys think about it too. It's funny when you think about it. There's two different versions. There's the standard one. It will be $199. The Portal Plus, as they call it, is a much larger screen and then it's an HD. That will be $349. Both of them say that the camera essentially will follow you as you're talking to somebody or video chatting with them. Serena Gilbert: They initially said that no data was going to be stored and that everything was nice and secure. They then came back and said, "But, wait. We will the information to target ads to you." Yeah. So, the camera's following you in the room and they're targeting ads at you. Still like it? I don't know. Andy Munoz: Regardless of whether you like it or not, there's just no getting away from it because you get the ads even on Facebook itself. I can go right now and I can do a search on Amazon for smart home devices and I guarantee you as soon as I click into Facebook, it's going to show me what I last searched for. For me, it's more or less going to be about what all can it do? What are all the different features? What's going to sell it to me that's going to allow me to really overlook that targeting commercial stuff to me? Serena Gilbert: You're not taking it off your Christmas list yet? Andy Munoz: I wouldn't say I would take it off. It doesn't matter what you do, you're not going to get away from that stuff. As much as you'd like to, as much as I'd like to, it's there. At this point, again, it's going to go back to, what are the features? What's going to make me want to buy this thing that I can't do with another device? Serena Gilbert: Yeah. Jeff, you have this on your shopping list? Jeff Thompson: No, I don't have it on my Christmas list yet, but I should get that started. The thing is, with all these different devices and ecosystems out there, I'm starting to wonder if someone should start with one ecosystem and stick with just one such as yourself. What benefits does the Facebook Portal have over your Amazon Show? Serena Gilbert: I don't think it offers anything different because they both do the video chatting. The screen does appear to be a little bit larger on the Facebook Portal. I think that the entry-level price on it is cheaper because the Amazon Show is, I believe, $229 and the Facebook Portal would be starting at $199. There's a $30 difference there. Serena Gilbert: It's really funny because I saw the ad on Facebook, of course, and the comments ... I just had to read the comments 'cause they were so funny and everyone's like, "So, why can't I just FaceTime?" Jeff Thompson: Yeah, right? Serena Gilbert: You're offering me a speaker that you say I can make all these calls on, I can just do that on my phone already, so what's the point? 'Cause they're not boosting that it has this awesome sound quality, they're not advertising that it's smart. I guess it will have Alexa built into it. Sorry, guys. It will have the 'A' lady built into it, but why would you spend the money on a third-party device to have the 'A' lady when you can get that straight from Amazon anyway? Andy Munoz: The other part of it too is you can actually video chat via Facebook Messenger just depending upon what device you're using. If I'm sitting at my computer, I've already got a 19" HD display so why would I want to invest in something different other than the fact that we're tech nerds and we like to know these things and we never know when we're going to run across something where we're maybe going to have to maybe troubleshoot something like that. That would be maybe its sole purpose. Jeff Thompson: Well, I think that Facebook is coming late into the game in this. The newness of the new products coming out, everyone wanted to experiment or explore these new gidgets and gadgets and now we all have probably multiple ecosystems in our house. You might have a Google or Amazon or an Apple device going right now. Is it time right now to add one more to the mix that we have in our house? That sometimes I think it's not doing exactly what I thought it would. So, I think people are being desensitized from the thrill of it all, the newness of these types of gadgets and Facebook is just a little late into the game. Serena Gilbert: Yeah, it always makes you wonder, is there really room on my shelf for one more smart device? Where would I even put it? Jeff Thompson: I wonder what we're going to have to say to invoke the Facebook Portal, "Mr. Senator," or "Yo, Zucker." Serena Gilbert: You say, and does this sound at all familiar, "Hey, Portal." Jeff Thompson: Really? Serena Gilbert: Yeah, which those of us who are super lucky enough to have HomePods ... Jeff Thompson: Super lucky. Serena Gilbert: Super lucky. Jeff Thompson: Super. Serena Gilbert: Super- Jeff Thompson: Lucky. Serena Gilbert: ... lucky. We know what the wake word is for that. Very similar. Jeff Thompson: It'd be funny if it was Mr. Senator. Yes, Senator. Yes, Senator. Andy Munoz: What kind of responses does it give if you call it the wrong name? Jeff Thompson: I have no idea. It's not out until, what, November? Mid-November? Serena Gilbert: It says November. It doesn't even have a specific data, it just says November. I predict ... I think this is going to be a big, huge flop for Facebook. I think this is going to be a lot of lost money because who knows how many they've already produced. They'll probably sell maybe 100,000 which is nothing when there's how many billion users on Facebook? Jeff Thompson: Yeah, plus the fact when I looked it up. I think ten things came up when I did my search, nine of them were about, "Is this a good idea? Should they pull the plug now? Should they save their costs? Are the stocks falling on Facebook?" and, "Do you trust Facebook to secure this information that it's gathering?" I don't know. I don't think it's going to be on my Christmas list, Serena. Serena Gilbert: I know one thing that I keep trying to get you to add to the Christmas list, but I don't know if you will. Jeff Thompson: What's that? Serena Gilbert: Remember? I told my bestie that you wanted a HomePod. Jeff Thompson: Oh! And you want to go to CSUN. Serena Gilbert: You know it. Jeff Thompson: That's coming up. That's around the corner. Serena Gilbert: Better get to planning. Jeff Thompson: The more we talk, the closer it gets. Serena Gilbert: There's a really good Christmas gift right there. Andy can go too. Andy Munoz: Hey. Jeff Thompson: There you go. Serena Gilbert: We'll get in all kinds of trouble. It's in Anaheim this time. Jeff Thompson: Someone's got to run that Colorado show out there though. Serena Gilbert: We'll be okay. Andy Munoz: We'll survive. Jeff Thompson: A new device that's out from Google is the Google Home Hub ... Yeah, the Google Home Hub. Serena Gilbert: The need a better name for that one. Jeff Thompson: I was wondering if this was the answer to anybody out there that has collected a few devices, one for their Google Home that works on their ... One works on the Amazon Device. If this is the answer that will solve some of the problems of bringing everything together. Serena Gilbert: How does the Hub work? I don't fully understand it. Jeff Thompson: Okay. A hub is also known as a bridge and what it is is a central location device that actually can control all the different smart devices that you have located throughout your house. If you have smart plugs, smart switches, smart doorbells, smart thermostat, you can actually connect them up all to one spot, which is a hub and then access that. Jeff Thompson: Typically, what people do is access it through an iPad or something so they have one control. From there, you can set up groups, you can set up different modes for things to be on that come on at certain times, go off at certain times. You can group lights together, you can have full control over all these devices in one location rather than using the TP app, the WeMo app, and the Nest app and figure out everything else. You can actually tie them all together and that's what a hub/bridge does. Jeff Thompson: The HomeKit app, that app was put out, is something that was trying to become a bridge in your wi-fi system to tie all these together. Now, you've got to remember that everything has to be able to reach the wi-fi system. You might have a plug or a switch far enough away where your wi-fi isn't that great, so you'll have to do an extender. Whereas, you can get pretty elaborate. You can go into the Z-Wave system, which actually every device that's hooked up becomes a little transmitter too so it can chainlink all these together so it can reach a further distance. Jeff Thompson: Interesting stuff once you get interesting stuff once you get into the high-end of homes, but as for affordability and everything, I think Google Home Hub is an idea. It might be something that works good for you, but I think HomeKit really has the advantage here in wi-fi in the future. If you're just talking about adding some conveniences to your house and not really going into the major planning of a full day operation of automation going on. Jeff Thompson: Shades open. Lights on. Mood setting. Thermostat adjust and someday turn on stereo system. Play phonograph. Set the mood. The possibilities could be endless. You can do some of that with HomeKit, but yeah. Basically, that's was a hub/bridge does. It ties everything together under one physical device that you can access and control everything. Serena Gilbert: I'm just so distracted because I'm pretty sure you said phonograph. Andy Munoz: He did say phonograph. Serena Gilbert: What the heck is that? Andy Munoz: It's a record player. Serena Gilbert: Do you have a smart phonograph, Jeff? Jeff Thompson: I'm just saying, yeah, there probably is one. You can get one to skip and ... Andy Munoz: Yeah, you can get it to do some scratchin'. Scratchin'. You know? You know? Jeff Thompson: Yeah. Serena Gilbert: Yes, Jeff. You are definitely the old man right now. Andy Munoz: Well, it's funny because my kid's now into buying vinyls and I'm like, "Why are they even still making those," and come to find out yeah, they're making record players again. Jeff Thompson: I have two record players and I collected albums back in the day and I still have them. They're popular again. It's kind of neat. Andy Munoz: It's kind of interesting how technology's going full circle. Serena Gilbert: Jeff, for the young ones listening to our podcast, what's an album? You going to tell them that? No, I'm just kidding. Andy Munoz: Google's your friend, look it up. Serena Gilbert: On your smart speaker. Andy Munoz: Ask the 'A' lady, she'll tell you. Serena Gilbert: I am curious, because this is all about smart devices, if we could go around, I guess the virtual table and let's hear about what smart devices you have in your home right now and what you like, what you don't like, maybe, if you're on the market for a new one. We'll start with you, Andy. Andy Munoz: Okay. So, right now, I don't have any. I'm in the market. I've got a pretty archaic thermostat. The thing is huge, but the problem is I can see the numbers, but I can't see how it programs. I certainly want something that I have a little bit more that I can do with it then having to rely on somebody else to set it up. Jeff Thompson: What you're saying is you want to be the master of your own domain. Andy Munoz: There you go. Jeff Thompson: There you go. Serena Gilbert: Seinfeld reference. Andy Munoz: Primarily, I'm just looking for a thermostat. Ceiling fans would be nice. Serena Gilbert: They make smart ceiling fans? Andy Munoz: Yeah, they make ... Serena Gilbert: I didn't know that. Andy Munoz: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Serena Gilbert: That would be really cool. Jeff Thompson: Oh, yeah. They invented the ceiling fan right after the phonograph. When I was looking up the Google Home Hub, the GHH, they claim that it can connect up to 5,000 different devices. So, that probably includes the phonographs and let's see, what came out right after phonographs? Ceiling fans, Serena. Yeah, there's probably a smart gidget or gadget out there for pert near anything. Andy Munoz: Oh, yeah. When I was working with Apple, I got a guy that called in that was setting up a smart garage door opener. Serena Gilbert: Now, why do we need that? I really don't understand that. What does it recognize your car when you drive up to it? Jeff Thompson: Well, when you have your smart Amazon Drive in your car, you can then just say, "Open, sesame." Serena Gilbert: Oh, my God. Jeff Thompson: Lower the drawbridge. Serena Gilbert: Secret passcode, right? I really don't understand what a smart garage door would do that a regular garage door ... You push a button and it opens. What else do we need it to do? Jeff Thompson: You have to actually move your arm to push the button. Serena Gilbert: I get it because ... We laugh at how lazy this is making us 'cause we don't have to leave our couch to turn the light on or off or adjust the thermostat, but it truly does open up accessibility for tons and tons of people with disabilities that have mobility impairments or maybe even a cognitive impairment where it just makes a life a lot more independent and affordable. Before, doing something like this would be thousands and thousands and thousands of dollars, now they can just get it right on the market. Andy Munoz: Or, even just the simple fact that you either make some sort of adjustment cosmetically or what have you so that it could be used or you stay reliant on somebody to help you with that. Having these smart devices, they are truly game changers. For the rest of us, yeah, it makes us lazy. Jeff Thompson: As long as your wi-fi doesn't get knocked down. Andy Munoz: Yeah, that too. Yeah. Serena Gilbert: I was just thinking that. I was just about to say, "Until somebody hacks it." Then, it will drive you crazy. Jeff Thompson: One of the concerns I would be looking into is if I was going to get the Canary or the HomeSafe alarm system that hooks up to your wi-fi and is a smart device, that, just like the bridge and the hub, are these connected to just your wi-fi or if someone cuts your wi-fi cable, will it give you an alert through cellular or run off the cellular? Andy Munoz: I believe that they do because actually my brother-in-law just made some changes. He gave up his business-class wi-fi and went back to residential and they bundled it all and got the security system. Yeah, if the wi-fi goes down it then does go to cellular. Jeff Thompson: Oh, that's nice. Serena Gilbert: Yeah, 'cause we have a Honeywell Lyric. With got it for free from our home owner's insurance company and they gave us four of them. What it is is you put anywhere that there's water that could possibly leak and it's connected to wi-fi. It also puts this obnoxious, loud beeping sound A, when there is water that it detects and B, just when the battery is dying. Andy Munoz: Does it go onto the floor? Serena Gilbert: Well, you can do it two different ways. We have one on the hose of our washer and it's got this cord that you can wrap around it that if it detects the water then it will set off the alarm. Or, you can just set it on the floor and you don't need the cord then. As soon as it detects water it will start beeping and it will send a notification to your phone. Serena Gilbert: When we changed our wi-fi, we never put them back on the new wi-fi 'cause I frankly couldn't remember how to do it. When we changed our router out and had to get a new wi-fi network put up, it sent emails to me saying that they were offline. That's really cool because your hot water heater could be leaking for days and you'd never know. Ours is in the basement. We don't go down there but maybe once a month. Jeff Thompson: That's neat. That's less invasive. There's a more invasive one that actually goes right into your plumbing system. You cut the line and you put this device in there and it will notify you if the pressure drops. If you're on vacation, your lines should have no open valves so there should be a constant pressure and if that pressure drops significantly, then it will give you a signal and notify you that there's been a change, possibly a leak, that could really devastate your home. Serena Gilbert: Yeah, that could save a lot of money. Imagine if you came back from vacation and there were six feet of water in your basement. Jeff Thompson: Swimming pool, yeah. Serena Gilbert: Yeah. Andy Munoz: Well, I was talking to somebody that they were out of town, but their son was there. He didn't realize it, but there had been a leak. So, their basement flooded and, on top of it, they ended up with a $5,000 water bill. That was in the course of three weeks. Serena Gilbert: Oh, my God. I would cry. Oh, my God. Andy Munoz: Yeah, it was pretty crazy. Jeff Thompson: Oh, wow. I think a lot of these devices, like you're saying, for someone that has a speech impediment of some sort or something, that there's alternative devices now that through your wi-fi, making the home smarter. We just usually think about these devices that we're using today, but a lot of these switches and commands that we're using are pretty versatile and available to other people. Like you said, it used to be tens of thousands of dollars to make a home accessible for someone with a disability that it may help them open a door or turn on lights as you said, but now, these devices are stuff we buy off the shelf. Jeff Thompson: You can get the Hue lights and dim your lights and do other things and the switches and put everything on a timer. My driveway lights ... I have a WeMo light switch that my driveway lights come on when it gets dark, sunset, and goes off at a certain time. Then, I have some lamps in the living room that come on at the same time and go off at the same time. I have three switches working like that, plug in switches and one light switch. I like that automation because kind of get it. The lights come on. Oh, it's dark out, if you can sense that. If someone comes over, the house isn't just totally dark. Andy Munoz: Well, it's nice especially in today's society, you definitely want to have those lights on on the outside. You don't want people creeping up on your house. For me, I look at the negative side of that just because it is real. You definitely want to make sure that you have some light so your house can be seen, and I think it detracts from people wanting to do anything to it in a negative manner. Jeff Thompson: Plus, when you're away from home ... When I was in England, I could actually turn the lights off or on just from a flip on my phone, from the app. Andy Munoz: Right. Jeff Thompson: Something to remember about some of these home devices, it seems so great. Hey, just put a light switch in, but to put a light switch in with the WeMo and other ones, you do need all three wires there. You need your positive, your negative, and your neutral wire. Andy Munoz: Right. Jeff Thompson: Typically, a house that was built pre-90s, I believe, somewhere around there, switches were interrupters. So, they only ran the hot wire down to one side and to the other so when you switch is down, it breaks the connection. Lot of houses either had them drop down from the ceiling or they came up from the basement. The switches were not the place to run all the wires. They ran those to the lights above and just dropped down the ones. Jeff Thompson: That may be a problem if you want to add a light switch or a dimmer switch, but you will need to have all three there. If you don't, then you have to have an electrician come in and run a neutral wire up and facilitate it that way. So, that could get expensive. Andy Munoz: Right. It's good just to know that in general. Jeff Thompson: Oh, for sure. It also might justify spending the money for a smart light bulb where you can control that specific light bulb or a group of light bulbs with a command from an app or a voice command directed at one of your personal devices such as an Amazon, Google, Apple device, your smart speaker device. Jeff Thompson: Another device that I'm kind of interested is the Look or Nest makes a product, a couple other people make these products, they're cameras on your doorbell. When motion happens at the front door, you'll get a message on your phone that says, "Motion at front door," and that solves the problem of thinking, "Why do I need a camera at the front door?" Well, the camera does give the indication that there's motion, which then triggers the notification that you'll get, but these two need the existing wire that the previous doorbell used because they need a transformer. So, that's something you want to look into. Jeff Thompson: If you don't have a doorbell, then you'll have to install this pre-wiring beforehand. If you do have one, you have to make sure that it's 24 volts running to it because all these devices do need a power source to be running. Just beware, when you're thinking and considering and buying these products, read the small braille. Andy Munoz: Love it. Love it. Small braille. Serena Gilbert: Oh, man. Isn't all the braille small? Jeff Thompson: There is jumbo braille for people with neuropathy. Jeff Thompson: Serena, what kind of devices are you working with? Serena Gilbert: I have a WeMo plug. One thing I wanted to share with you guys is that, if you have Amazon Prime, there's been a few times just in the last few months where they sent out a deal where you can get a smart plug or a smart light bulb for only $10. We bought one when they did that and, sad to say, it's still sitting in the package because I need two and I've just been too cheap to buy the second one for my lamps downstairs. Serena Gilbert: It was summer when I bought them, so I was like, "Oh, we never need the lights on anyways." Now, it gets dark at like 6:15, 6:30 and it would be nice to just go on my phone and turn them on or use the Echo to turn them on. Jeff Thompson: Yeah, I noticed and that's how I've got ... I don't know why I'm coughing. Serena Gilbert: You're just getting too old over there. Jeff Thompson: Geez, you're sticking with this one. Serena Gilbert: See what happens when you tell me I'm getting fat? Jeff Thompson: I didn't say that. I know not to say stuff like that. Serena Gilbert: Would you like to share what you said? Jeff Thompson: I said you could grow into that Blind Abilities t-shirt. Serena Gilbert: No, you said I'm going to grow into it because of the shake that I had. Jeff Thompson: Why don't you tell the listeners what you put in your shake tonight? Serena Gilbert: Shameless plug for Five Guys Burgers and Fries. I had a shake and I added Oreo to it and Oreo cream and Double Stuff Oreo. I see nothing wrong with that. Jeff Thompson: Plus, some ice cream, right? Serena Gilbert: Milk, with sugar. Jeff Thompson: Yeah, so I'll repeat it. You'll probably grow into that t-shirt. Serena Gilbert: This is not helping you. You're going to get some hate mail from all the ladies out there. Jeff Thompson: If anybody else would like to grow into a Blind Abilities t-shirt, email us at info@blindabilities.com. Andy Munoz: Yeah. Serena Gilbert: Oh, my goodness. Not very nice, Jeff. Andy Munoz: But, it is funny. Serena Gilbert: I'm telling my bestie on you. Jeff Thompson: You do have a HomePod, right? Serena Gilbert: I do. If anyone's ever listened to me on any podcast, they know I absolutely adore that HomePod. Jeff Thompson: Yeah, I hear it is good sound. So are the Sonos. The Sonos are pretty good and with the smart device built into those too. The thing is, with API on those since it's not a true Amazon device, you only get partial use of the full functionality of what you'll get out of an Amazon device like the Dot or the Echo. Sometimes you forget that you only get that limited usage out of them. I wonder how much the Facebook Portal will have? Serena Gilbert: It's probably the same API that they have on the Sonos because the Amazon's got to give you some reason to buy theirs. Why would you ever buy the Amazon one when the Sonos clearly sounds way better sound-wise. There has to be some incentive. Jeff Thompson: Yeah, just be aware when you're buying these devices what they connect up with. Some connect up with more than one platform. It might connect up to Amazon or it might connect up to Apple, but just check that out. Jeff Thompson: With the HomeKit app in your iOS device, that application is your hub, your bridge, and that might be the thing of the future, using your wi-fi. Whereas the hub, it just may be ... Serena Gilbert: I feel like it's another way for them to get you to spend- Jeff Thompson: More money. Serena Gilbert: $100. With me, 'cause I have the HomePod, I have the Amazon device, I'm trying to be smart about the devices that I choose since we don't have a smart home yet where either I can find some that work with both or depending on where the device that I'm buying is going to be, it works with whatever is closest to it. Andy Munoz: Definitely some strategy into it. Serena Gilbert: Yeah. One weird thing that I noticed when I did get the HomePod is, for some reason, and I don't know if it's the way that Apple's system is so locked down, but the devices that say they're compatible with HomeKit, they're never the ones ... They're always more expensive it seems. The ones that are compatible with the Amazon devices, there's so many of them that the price has come down on them. When you look at the ones that say HomeKit, it's like upwards of double the price for the same functionality. Andy Munoz: I'm guessing you're right that Apple is so locked down with everything that they do and you don't have a lot of choice as you do with Amazon or Google. A lot of the coding and development and stuff that goes into all that stuff is open source. Not to dog Google in any way, shape, or form by saying this, but their standards are more open than what you get with an Apple. I would venture to say that you're right on that. Jeff Thompson: When I first started down this path of adding smart switches and smart plugins, outlets to the house, I went with WeMo and I stuck with it. It seems to be doing good and just lately, I got an update and now the WeMo switches, the smart, mini WeMo switches, are able to work with the HomeKit, which is the native app in your iOS device titled, "Home," H-O-M-E. Jeff Thompson: The new ones that you get, they'll have a little code on them and you just scan it and it will register right into your application of your HomeKit and boom, there you go. That is very similar to my Nest Protect because all I did there was scan in the product and boom, it was connected up into my app, which just makes it very nice. Jeff Thompson: In the app, it does incorporate that these devices can now be synced up together. I have them synced up with my Amazon device, my google device, my iPhone. I can make my iPad, which stays at home basically, as the hub. By me invoking the HomeKit as my hub, do I really need a Google Home Hub? Do I really need a central device? I think I'm okay. Andy Munoz: I guess if you look at it from most people's perspective, we want it with generally a handheld device. Let's face it. There's times that we're not going to be in our home, when we want to be able to have that remote access, that remote control. I think that the hubs are a nice thought, but I don't know how realistic it is. Jeff Thompson: Serena, you had mentioned that you were considering a basement remodel. Have you thought about incorporating the smart home features? Serena Gilbert: It would be nice kind of thing, but yeah, we haven't officially done that. All I really want in the house right now is a smart thermostat because I really struggle with what temperature it is in the house. The house is only two years old. I meant the builder if they could put in a smart one for me and then I just spaced it. I regret that. Serena Gilbert: I really have to rethink it 'cause I know that my husband would like a doorbell camera at some point. It's like do we go with Ring; do we go with Nest because I'd like it to just all be the same brand just to make life easy. Jeff Thompson: I have a Nest Protect and that's a smoke alarm that mounts to the ceiling. If I buy another Nest Protect, they communicate with each other and announce their location. In a case of an emergency, you will know where the smoke is coming from. Speaker 4:           Emergency. There's smoke downstairs. Jeff Thompson: If I do get a Nest thermostat, that too will connect to the family of Nest products. If there is a fire, it will shut off the furnace so you don't have the air blowing around and flaming the fire ... Flaming? Wafting the flame. Serena Gilbert: Good job. Your old brain worked. Jeff Thompson: Oh, it may not be as quick as a Millennial, but it's wiser. Jeff Thompson: So, having items from the same family, the same Nest products in my situation pays off for me. I would also like to mention that the Nest Protect, the smoke alarm that's in the ceiling, has a glowing light on it and it comes on when it senses motion. So, in the middle of the night, if you walk past it, it will glow brighter. Serena Gilbert: That's cool. Jeff Thompson: Yeah, so that's a neat little feature that will help family members as well. Serena, you mentioned the doorbell with the camera. Now, some people may say, "Why do I need a camera when I can't see who's out there?" However, the camera senses motion and then it will send you a notification that there's motion at the front door. Serena Gilbert: That's very cool. Jeff Thompson: I see the benefits in that as well. Jeff Thompson: Now, a friend of mine, just to be fair, has the Honeywell thermostat. Serena Gilbert: Is the Honeywell app accessible? Jeff Thompson: He says it is, however, he doesn't use voice over but he tested it and he says it is. I haven't put it through the rigors, but it's $100 cheaper and Honeywell is a good product. It has high ratings on it as well. However, being in the same family and interconnecting as such, I think Nest makes a good line of product that really should be considered. Plus, Nest is owned by Google, right? Serena Gilbert: Is it? Jeff Thompson: Yeah. Serena Gilbert: [inaudible] conspiracy. Andy Munoz: I have to say though, I'm with Jeff on the whole ... Usually, if I buy a brand, that's usually what I like to stick to and keep it consistent. A lot of it, I think, has to do for me about what the previous experiences have been. If I bought something like a Samsung TV and it's worked well for me, I'm going to be more inclined to go back out and buy that same brand just because I've had that good experience and I trust it. I think too, part of it too is if they can communicate with each other in some way, shape, or form, all the better. Jeff Thompson: Yeah, safety first. That brings up home security systems in your house that hooks up with wi-fi from doors to windows. I'm starting to wonder how many devices you can have connected up to your wi-fi system before it becomes over-weighted or strained. That's probably where a hub comes in because it would take that load. Until you get to that point, I think that's when you start wondering about a hub. Jeff Thompson: I just want to use the apps that each thing comes with. Set it up one time and move on. I don't want to have to pull that out all the time and say, "Honey, let's set the mood lighting for this movie," or have all my Christmas lights on my iPad so I can spell words or have special designs going across. That's not my bag. I just want these devices to work out of their own app. I just think the HomeKit, the home app, will suffice for most people that are venturing into the smart home devices. Andy Munoz: Well, because I think too we all have this thing where we generally know when we're going to be home and when we're not unless you have something where you're out of the norm, you have a function that you're going to go to or what have you. In my house, I generally know who's going to be home and when they're going to be home. To be able to say, "All right, yeah, let's have a heat come on at this time. Have it shut off at this time," that kind of stuff is super convenient. Andy Munoz: Because right now, it's one of those things where because I can't program it the way that I want and my wife isn't able to program it, she's [inaudible]. It's just an archaic thermostat. There's times she'll say 8:30 at night, "It's cold." I have to turn it up because yeah, it shut down when it really should have been on. There again, it would be nice to have something where definitely have that control and to be able to do that and know that it's going to be consistent. Jeff Thompson: Serena, do you want the Amazon Bathroom where you walk in and the lights come on, the toilet seat heats up, and boom, music comes on and six sheets of toilet paper pop out? Serena Gilbert: If you can find a way to heat my floor in my bathroom, I'd be happy. Jeff Thompson: Oh, they have that. Serena Gilbert: I don't know if I need the toilet seat heat. I'm okay. But, I was thinking about what you guys were talking about and I was just thinking of the cost savings with that. Just the heat alone to save it ... 'Cause right now, our heat's just either off or on. Then, we all know the theory behind how long it takes to raise the heat so many degrees. It's more expensive then to keep it steady. Serena Gilbert: Then, there's also the cost savings of if you own your house. Especially with the smoke detectors that you have, Jeff, I'm sure you're saving money on your home owner's insurance too. Jeff Thompson: Yeah, that's great, Serena, because if you contact your insurance company you can find out so much more about what you could be doing to your house for safety-wise that will ultimately save you money in the insurance policy premium. Serena Gilbert: It'd be totally worth it. Jeff Thompson: Oh, yeah. You want to tell them you have a smoke alarm. Don't call them and tell them you don't have any. Serena Gilbert: What do you mean you didn't have one? Hold on a minute. We need to raise your premium a little bit. Jeff Thompson: Back pay. It's just really nice that there's devices out there that we can implement into our lives. Like you said, Andy, just make it more convenient and ... Especially the doorbell. I'm really intrigued about that, the camera. I was the one that would always say, "Why do I need a camera? I can't see blah, blah, blah," but that it alerts you, you know? Serena Gilbert: Some of them have it where you can speak to them. Jeff Thompson: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Serena Gilbert: And, hear the sound. Jeff Thompson: That's a neat alert. You know someone's at the front door. Andy Munoz: Yes, I was just going to say, "And, they have no idea that you're not even home." Jeff Thompson: Right. I'm going to get one before trick-or-treaters come out. This will be fun. Serena Gilbert: Scare them. Oh, my goodness. Well, it will especially help during the holiday season when you're expecting your Amazon packages 'cause if there's sound with it too, there's pretty distinct noise when the UPS truck pulls up. Jeff Thompson: I think if you do it right ... We should appeal to all the truck drivers that deliver packages to wear little bells on their shoes so we know it's them. Serena Gilbert: It's like a code. That reminds me though. I was watching Shark Tank a few weeks ago and there was a business on there and they didn't get a deal, but it was a smart device that it was a box that the driver would scan the code on the package, it'd open up the box, they'd put the package in there, and then it would close back up again. They didn't get a deal for obvious reasons because, frankly, the UPS drivers probably aren't going to scan it. They're just going to sit the package on top of the box and keep going. Serena Gilbert: It did bring up an interesting thing though. If they could have licensed that to UPS or FedEx or USPS, made it part of their flow, that could really curb porch pirates. Jeff Thompson: I got a question for you guys. What device isn't out there yet, but you would like to have a smart device as? Serena Gilbert: Oh, you know what I'm going to say as my son always says when I ask him questions. I want my smart self-driving car. Jeff Thompson: That's coming. Serena Gilbert: But it's not accessible. There's too many laws. Jeff Thompson: They'll probably have a little screen to open the door and it will be like, "Everything's accessible except you can't get in the door." Serena Gilbert: Yeah. You have to put in this passcode that's on this touchscreen. Jeff Thompson: They'll have a Captcha. Serena Gilbert: God, I hate those things. Then, you try to listen to it. Jeff Thompson: Oh, yeah. Four seven three apple two orange W. Serena Gilbert: You're like, "Are you in a call center doing this?" I don't understand. Jeff Thompson: I know it's crazy. It's like, "Gosh, I had good hearing until I heard that." Andy Munoz: If you'd get you a tin can that would sound so perfect. Jeff Thompson: Yeah. Serena Gilbert: I hate those things. Jeff Thompson: I was on a website today. I know this is off topic. I was on a website today. It was all about accessibility. It's supposed to be an educational accessibility thing and all this stuff. It was really interesting. I was actually intrigued with the layout and stuff and they had a Captcha that was inaccessible. It's like, "Really? You did all this and now that." Andy Munoz: Somebody did not think that through. Jeff Thompson: No. Serena Gilbert: #accesibilityFail. Jeff Thompson: They have accessibility in their name. Serena Gilbert: Did you send them an email? Jeff Thompson: No. Andy Munoz: Wow. Jeff Thompson: I got off of it and I just sat there for a minute thinking, "That's so stupid." Serena Gilbert: You didn't make your trademark noise? Andy, what's the smart device that you're hoping for? Andy Munoz: Wow. That could be plenty but something that would open up my dryer and pull out my laundry and hang it up. Serena Gilbert: Oh, so you want the robot from the Jetsons. Andy Munoz: There you go. Jeff Thompson: That's be Judy wouldn't it? Serena Gilbert: Just your luck 'cause wasn't George always getting all this technology failing for him? Andy Munoz: Yeah, she malfunctioned one day and she did a bunch of different weird stuff that was all backwards. Jeff Thompson: I think for a device that I'm looking forward to and I hope they have it someday, is really a personal assistant, but not a physical one that would actually do things for me but you know how you think of to-do lists and you think of all this stuff? Something that follows your thought like that. When you wake up the next day, it's like, "Jeff, remember the garbage." Serena Gilbert: You want a chip implanted in your head. Jeff Thompson: Just call it the thought bubble or something. Serena Gilbert: Thought bubble. Jeff Thompson: Yeah, an accessible thought bubble. Just like, "Lori told me three things yesterday. What was that?" "Jeff, you weren't listening where you?" I want that companion, that thing that actually helps me move along. Serena Gilbert: Jeff, all you have to do is win the Powerball and then you can just pay someone to follow you around for the rest of your life. Jeff Thompson: But, I think this would help people. We're talking about old age, but people who have memory issues and stuff. That seems to be a prominent thing in today's world. Everyone knows someone that might be going through it or someone that is affected by it. Something that could shadow you, your shadow. If your shadow could talk, it would remember. Serena Gilbert: So, you want a smart shadow? Jeff Thompson: Yeah. Do you guys think that's far off? Andy Munoz: Time wise maybe. I don't know. Technology's so rapid that anything's possible at any given point. I think, for me, it's even pointless half the time for me to put stuff even as reminders 'cause I just ignore them. Serena Gilbert: I'm the same way. Andy Munoz: For work and stuff, obviously, I pay attention to my calendar and that sort of thing, but outside of that, I'll say, "Yeah, I put it in my calendar. I'll do this, that, or the other." It's like it's there but nine times out of 10 I'm just going to blow it off and ignore it anyway. Serena Gilbert: I have a reminder on my phone right now that's 19 days old but I still didn't do it. Like, "Oh, I'll just ignore it and it will pop back up in a couple weeks." Jeff Thompson: Avoid shakes from Five Brothers. Serena Gilbert: Five Guys, get it right. Jeff Thompson: Avoid shakes from Five Guys. Serena Gilbert: You guys don't have Five Guys up in Minnesota? Jeff Thompson: No. We only got three guys. We're working on it. Serena Gilbert: You don't know what you're missing. You don't have Dutch Brothers. You don't have Five Guys. God, how do you live? Jeff Thompson: Well, you're in the fastest growing city in the United States right now. Serena Gilbert: It's 'cause we've got all these Millennials. They love it here. Jeff Thompson: Really? Serena Gilbert: That's why we're getting all these cool home deliver things. We just got Prime Now here. We can get Whole Food delivered in two hours for free. Jeff Thompson: That's awesome. Serena Gilbert: Yeah. Jeff Thompson: How big is Cold Spring? Serena Gilbert: Old Spring? Jeff Thompson: Colorado Springs. How big is Colorado Springs? Andy Munoz: The general city is like 400,000, but then you've got the surrounding areas that make up more and we're probably closer to 650 to 700,000. Jeff Thompson: Really? Serena Gilbert: I think they said by ... Do you remember what year it was, Andy? Maybe it was like 2050, which sounds far away, but it really isn't if you think about it. We would actually be bigger than Denver technically. Andy Munoz: That's what they're saying. Serena Gilbert: Yeah. Andy Munoz: It's ridiculous to think because when you go to Denver, you go to downtown Denver and you see all the big high rise buildings and stuff and then you come to Colorado Springs and you look at our downtown. It's like no comparison. I think the highest building we have is maybe 20 stories. Serena Gilbert: I don't even know if there's a 20-story one, honestly. If there is, then it's one of the hotels. Jeff Thompson: Which leads into is Colorado Springs going to be a smart city? Serena Gilbert: I don't think we will. Just politically, our city and then the other city, there's another small city that's in between Denver and Colorado Springs called Castle Rock, our two cities had the option to be part of the light rail system that's in Denver and they refused. Every time that it comes back up, they keep resisting and keep refusing because they don't want light rail here for some reason. I don't get it. Andy Munoz: Smart city means that you have to have some intelligence and Colorado Springs operates on the motto, "If it doesn't make sense, do it." Jeff Thompson: Yeah, it's really neat here because we do have the light rail running right through Fridley and it's neat. Even our buses and our light rails now have wi-fi while you're on them. Serena Gilbert: Very nice. Jeff Thompson: Yeah, we're not a bustling city anymore, but it's a big area. I think two-thirds of the population of Minnesota is located right in the twin cities, Saint Paul-Minneapolis and the seven-county area. It's nice that you get those little amenities like that but I always thought Colorado Springs was a ... Well, it's not Denver. It's a quaint little town. But, wow, number one in the United States for growth. Serena Gilbert: Real estate too. Andy Munoz: It's really been in just the last several years. It's just really kind of just took off. Serena Gilbert: Well, a lot of it is the people from Denver have moved down here so they're still making their Denver wages. So, they move down here and we're buying Colorado Springs waged houses and then that's driving it all up, but then they're still commuting to Denver for work. That's contributing to the traffic problems too. The commute's about an hour, hour and 10 if you go early enough. Andy Munoz: Yeah, if you go early enough. Jeff Thompson: They need to get that tunnel. Serena Gilbert: I still want my hyperloop. Jeff Thompson: That's ready to open up, isn't it? Serena Gilbert: No. There's a test track in L.A. it's either two minutes or two miles. It's probably the same difference, but they're going to open that up and let people actually be able to test run it. Like, regular people. Jeff Thompson: As opposed to the irregular people? Serena Gilbert: Hey. Jeff Thompson: No, I think it's really neat that smart cities are coming about. A lot of devices are happening. A lot of transportation things like you want the car and I think everyone's been thinking about that and dreaming about that and wondering. Now, we say it's right around the corner, but that's a long ways to that corner sometimes. Serena Gilbert: You know, it will be interesting though because you just told me the NFB conference next year is in Vegas. Vegas is testing a... Lyft is testing a whole fleet of driverless vehicles on the strip there. Jeff Thompson: So, beware. Serena Gilbert: That would be interesting. Andy Munoz: Stay off the sidewalks. Jeff Thompson: Tap widely. Serena Gilbert: But they're safer than human drivers you guys. The accidents they have are only when the human does something to it to cause it to happen. Jeff Thompson: Well, I think ideally it's all going to be safer when there's more and more of them because they'll be able to communicate with each other just like my Nest will be able to communicate with things. Those cars will communicate with the other cars so it will almost be like a light rail once you get a stream of them going in a sense. Serena Gilbert: The only thing I worry about is because obviously to get where you're going it's reliant on some sort of GPS. So, you know there's a couple things that go with that. When the network's down, what happens to the cars? Or, when you're like my house where you weren't on the GPS for two entire years, where does it go? Does it stop somewhere and say you're there when you're really not? Those are things they'd have to definitely fix. Jeff Thompson: From smart devices, smart houses, it will be interesting to learn more about smart cities and smart automobiles. Probably by next show we could get a smart host. Serena Gilbert: I guess I'm coming down off my sugar high. Andy Munoz: She's thinking, "I smell smoke. Is your Nest going off, Jeff?" Jeff Thompson: Maybe the wi-fi went down and the house is burning. Andy Munoz: Uh-oh. Serena Gilbert: Oh, my goodness. I could just see a comic right now where there's a drawing and there's clearly smoke and fire, but the person's just looking at their phone and it says they are like, "Nope. Smoke detectors say that there's no fire." Serena Gilbert: Well, I have had tons of fun talking with you guys. Hopefully, we've got some ideas for our Christmas list right, Jeff? Jeff Thompson: Mm-hmm. CSUN. Serena Gilbert: Still haven't sold you on the HomePod have I? Jeff Thompson: Well, I'm going to be here to look under my tree or I'll just listen under my tree. Maybe it will tell her how to set it up too. Serena Gilbert: But, it's Apple. It just works, right? Jeff Thompson: Oh, yeah. Andy Munoz: There you go. Jeff Thompson: I have to say that I sit amongst an orchard of Apples. Serena Gilbert: You've got every color Apple there is. Jeff Thompson: Oh, by the way, what color is your iPhone X? Serena Gilbert: Silver. Andy Munoz: Space gray. Jeff Thompson: Gold. Serena Gilbert: You got a pink one, Jeff? Jeff Thompson: No, I didn't get rose gold. I got gold. Serena Gilbert: Are you sure you didn't get rose gold? Jeff Thompson: Well, I don't know. I got the case on. I'll never know. Serena Gilbert: Exactly. I just find it so funny with the last podcast we did how much you guys specifically said, "Nope, I don't think I'm going to upgrade," and both of you did in like a week of each other. Jeff Thompson: I walked into the Apple store. That's what went wrong. Andy Munoz: Yeah, I walked into the Sprint store with my son and there we go. I have to run guys. I do have an errand that I need to run. Serena Gilbert: That sounds awful suspicious considering that it's like 10:00 at night. Andy Munoz: Got to go to the pharmacy. Serena Gilbert: I don't even want to know, Andy. Serena Gilbert: Anyway, I enjoyed talked with both you guys and I can't wait to record the next episode and until next time, bye. Andy Munoz: Peace. Jeff Thompson: Bye-bye. Serena Gilbert: Get off the phone. Andy Munoz: I want to thank you for listening. Be sure to follow Tech Abilities on Twitter. That's @AbilitiesTech. A big thank you to Jeff Thompson for the beautiful music. Once again, I want to thank you for listening. We hope you enjoyed. Until next time, bye-bye. [Music]  [Transition noise]  -When we share -What we see -Through each other's eyes... [Multiple voices overlapping, in unison, to form a single sentence] ...We can then begin to bridge the gap between the limited expectations, and the realities of Blind Abilities. Jeff Thompson: For more podcasts with a blindness perspective, check us out on the web at www.BlindAbilities.com, on Twitter @BlindAbilities. Download our app from the App Store, Blind Abilities. That's two words. Or send us an email at info@blindabilities.com. Thanks for listening.

Mark Wellman is a nationally acclaimed author, filmmaker and motivational speaker. Despite being paralyzed in a mountain climbing accident, Mark has inspired millions to meet their problems head-on and reach for their full potential. A two-time Paralympian and former Yosemite Park Ranger, Mark's NO LIMITS philosophy encourages individuals to adventure into new horizons; to go beyond the seeming unreachable. Mark is used to being on the road since he travels throughout the year, bringing his adaptive climbing wall to companies, organizations, and schools. We caught him during one of his road trips and he agreed to swing by Golden, Colorado to the No Barriers podcast studio and catch up with his old friends, Jeff, Dave, and Erik. Mark is unbelievably accomplished but also reserved and humble. He talks about his legendary, groundbreaking athletic achievements with the same tone most use to describe what they had for lunch. But there was a time in Mark's life where he was unsure, depressed, and hopeless with no clear path ahead. Mark discusses his near-death injury that he sustained on a climb that left his paralyzed from the waist down. He spent months in the hospital unsure of how to go forward and lost. That was, until he received some wisdom. I had this one physical trainer, she was from Germany, and she said: “You need to train like your training for the Olympics!” And I just really took that to heart.” Mark first was determined to find employment where he could stay connected to the outdoors. So, he went back to school and got his degree in Park Management. He worked as a Park Ranger in various capacities, already shattering people's ideas of what he was capable of, but that was just the beginning. He soon discovered the world of adaptive sports and threw himself into learning more and designing his own adaptive equipment to get back out into the field. It was then he came up with the crazy idea of climbing the sheer granite face of El Capitan. He found a partner, built an ascending rope pulley system, and started to train. Now, folks of many different abilities have climbed El Cap, but until Mark, this was unthinkable. He pulled it off and became the first paraplegic to make the ascent. “Are you crazy to take this paraplegic guy up El Cap? Seems like a really stupid idea. Something could go wrong,’ but fortunately we didn’t really listen to that.” Mark went on to gain tons of media attention, made national and international news, met the President, lit the flaming torch up a 120-foot rope at the Paralympic games in Atlanta; a fun story he shared with us, and continued on to break even more records of athletic achievement, like being the first paraplegic to sit-ski unassisted across the Sierra Nevadas. Listening to Mark describe his epic achievements it's easy to forget he has a disability or about all the struggle that led him to this point in his life. But for Mark, it's about mindset. “I learned my disability wasn’t a death sentence - let’s get on with life, dude!” But Mark wanted to share what he learned with others. He details the spark of an idea he had with a friend that led to the formation of the nonprofit, No Barriers, and the humble beginnings of an organization that is now becoming a movement. He uses his time to speak to groups and offer inspiration, as well as lead hands-on adaptive activities that get people out of their comfort zones. “Let’s get out and enjoy life.” Read Mark's Autobiography Here Visit Mark's website: No Limits Learn more about No Barriers autobiography Climbing Back. The first paraplegic to sit-ski unassisted across the Sierra Nevada Mountain Range, --------------- EPISODE TRANSCRIPT ------------------------- Dave: Well welcome to our No Barriers podcast. We are thrilled today to have Mark Wellman with us, who's one of the founders of No Barriers. Can't wait to hear some of his stories about what this organization was founded upon. He's really the heart and soul behind why many of us are here at the organization. Before we get into that conversation, Erik, you just came back from a really interesting experience, why don't share with our listeners a little bit about it? Erik: [00:00:30] Yeah, I was at a conference with all these authors. There were four of us, and the first was a lady, she was the author of Hidden Figures, this great book that was made into a movie, these African American women who were behind getting us to the moon, didn't get any credit at first, but then their stories were really illuminated by her book. And this guy who is falsely sent to death row for 30 years. He was incarcerated- Dave: Wow. Erik: In a five by [00:01:00] seven room, had to kind of go into his mind and think about how to expand his mind. He said in his mind he married Halle Berry. They were married for 25 happy years. Dave: When was this set? Erik: Recently. Literally just got out of ... he got out of jail, no apology from Alabama. But he wrote this amazing book, so ... And then a lady who wrote a book called Beauty Sick, mostly [00:01:30] about girls who struggle with body image, and how much productivity is lost in the world because girls are having to pay attention to makeup, and weight, and all the things that they worry about. Guys too, but mostly the focus was on girls, and I have a daughter, so I was sitting there just hanging on every word, thinking about my daughter and her struggle, so it was really book because it was four very No Barriers... Dave: That's a lot of No Barriers. Erik: ...authors right there. [00:02:00] Maybe we'll get them on the podcast at some point. Dave: That sounds like perfect fit for the kinds of topics we explore. Erik: Yeah. And I am totally thrilled... this is great. I'm so psyched to have my friend, all our friends, Mark Wellman on the podcast today. Dave: The legend. Erik: The legend, the dirt bag... is that okay to say? Mark: Yeah, yeah. Dave: You embrace it, right? Mark: It's great to be here. I embrace everything. Erik: Mark almost doesn't need an introduction, but Mark is [00:02:30] a world class adventurer, and an innovator, and is the key founder of No Barriers. Has done amazing things that blow your mind as an adventurer. Has skied across the Ruth Gorge. Has traversed the Sierra Nevada mountain range. Has mountain biked the White Rim Trail. Has climbed El Capitan, Half Dome. We were just talking this morning, your Half [00:03:00] Dome ascent was 13 days? Mark: Yeah, it was. Erik: On the wall. Just, Mark, a hero of mine for sure. You're a few years older than me. When I was a teenager and you were just a little bit older climbing El Capitan and doing all these amazing adventures, you were a huge part of my motivation, so I'm psyched right now. Mark: It's great to be here, thanks a lot Erik. Yeah I guess I could [00:03:30] start off with... 35 years ago I was an able bodied climber and we were climbing a peak called Seven Gables, which is pretty close to the Mount Whitney area. We had a 20 mile backpack to get into the base, and this is back in 1982, I was 22 years old. My good friend Peter Enzinger and I were back there to do this climb. [00:04:00] We set up a base camp about 10,000 feet, and the next morning we got up pretty early, grabbed our technical rock climbing equipment and left most of our provisions at the base camp, our sleeping bags. Sure would have been nice to have that sleeping bag with us but didn't have it. And we climbed Seven Gables. It was sort of technical, kind of a mixed route. There was a little bit of ice, a little bit of rock, and made [00:04:30] the ascent. By the time we topped of it was a little bit late in the afternoon, about five o'clock. We just embraced this beautiful view from the summit. American Alpine Club places sometimes these cairns, or climbing registers, at the top of the mountain. It was kind of cool to see this. In this case it was just a pile of rocks with a Folgers coffee can. And I opened up the Folgers coffee can and dumped out the little pieces of paper, and there's my [00:05:00] hero Royal Robbins had climbed it. "Cool man, I'm gonna put my name next to Royal." Did that, and then we decided we're gonna go down a class four descent on the backside, just scrambling, not roped. We were just kind of walking down a tail of slope. I'll be the first to kind of admit my guard was down. My partner said, "Hey, maybe we should put a rope on [00:05:30] this one section here." I go, "No, no. I wanna get down to base camp, I'm really hungry. There's some really good freeze-dried food I wanna eat." You know that wonderful Mountain House stuff. Erik: And 35 years ago. Dave: Delicious. [crosstalk 00:05:44] Mark: So next thing I knew, I slipped on some scree, and I pitched forward and I started rolling. I made a couple of somersaults and I rolled off about a 100 foot cliff. When I landed I broke my lower back at T 11, T 12. Of course at the time I didn't know it. [00:06:00] I was 22, I didn't even know what a wheelchair was. That happened, and my partner thought I possibly could have been killed. But he heard me yell back at him. He got down to where I was... he said he spent a couple hours with me stopping some bleeding on my legs, and some other stuff. Jeff: What's your recollection of that period of time... Mark: He said he was with me for two hours, it felt like ten minutes. Erik: Right. Mark: And then he left. [00:06:30] He left an orange, an extra jacket, and some trail mix and said "Man, I gotta get out and get some help." So after 30 hours, the best sound I've ever heard in my whole life was the sound of this... [helicopter sounds] ...coming up the canyon. Erik: You almost froze to death. Mark: It was cold that night. Yeah it was real cold. I was laying on some ice. That probably helped because it kept the swelling down in my back. So I'm an incomplete [00:07:00] para. I have a little bit of movement in my legs. They said that might have helped me, the swelling. But the helicopter got up there, it was actually a ship from the Forest Service. They were gonna just go up and see if it was more of a body recovery, but fortunately I waved to them and the helicopter disappeared. About an hour later, a second helicopter came up and this time was from Lemoore Navy Base, and they did [00:07:30] a technical rescue. Flew in, brought the rotors within several feet of the cliff surface, lowered a navy medic, got me in a stokes litter, got me back up into the ship. I was down at a trauma center, they were cutting my clothes off, and a nurse said, "Who's your insurance company?" And fortunately I did have insurance, I had Kaiser. I went through stabilization of my back with Harrington rods. I was in the hospital in 1982 for seven months. Dave: [00:08:00] Wow. Erik: Including rehab? Mark: Including rehab and the whole nine yards. And nowadays, a paraplegic if you go to Craig Hospital, it's kind of the factory up here in the west. A paraplegic will be in the hospital for about six weeks. It's pretty dramatic... in those days, it was a much longer hospitalization. Learning how to take care of yourself. And then... Erik: More time is better, right? I mean, [00:08:30] would make sense right? You can develop more time? Mark: Yeah, a little bit. I think seven months was a little excessive. Erik: Right. Mark: But you know, there's a lot to learn. Your life has really changed. Your spinal cord runs your body, and you're paralyzed from your waist down. You have bowel and bladder issues. You have skin issues you have to be careful about. So all those things were really important, and I had this one [00:09:00] physical therapist who was from Germany and she goes, "You need to train like you're training for the Olympics." I just really took that to heart and started lifting weights. Was ambulating with long leg braces. This was sort of the beginning of the wheelchair revolution where wheelchairs weren't a stale piece of medical equipment, they were a lightweight piece of aluminum that was more of an extension of your body. And the wheelchair [00:09:30] could take you from point A to point B. Fortunately, in 1982 was really when these wheelchairs... they started making lightweight chairs. And I was a part of that. Erik: Not the clunky Vietnam-era things, right? Mark: Exactly. The old Everest and Jennings chairs were more obsolete, and they were using... well there was a woman who started Quickie wheelchairs, Marilyn Hamilton, she got hurt in a hang gliding accident. They took hang gliding technology, clevis pins, aluminum, powder coat. [00:10:00] And they kind of messier of manufacturing these wheelchairs sort of like... taking the technology from hang gliders and applying it to wheelchairs. Erik: We're still less than ten podcasts in here, but we've already heard a lot of stories of people... these No Barrier stories of people who go down deep into these dark places. I don't want to bring you down, but you have a lot of experience right now and so you can look back. You went to a dark [00:10:30] place, obviously. Mark: Yeah. It was close to saying goodbye to this Earth. Fortunately I made it through. I remember getting back into rehab, then I met a state rehab counselor who said, "You know Mark, you have this great love, this great passion for the outdoors, why don't you become a park ranger?" And I'm thinking, "How's somebody in a wheelchair gonna be a park ranger?" I'm thinking [00:11:00] law enforcement, search and rescue, and she goes "No, there's many hats in the National Park Service, or many different jobs." She took me down to Fort Funston where I met a ranger who kind of showed me the ropes and said "Hey, you could maybe do a job, this would be an entry level position, but you could help us plant dune grass and work in the nursery, or you could go to the entrance gate and help out there." [00:11:30] So I did that for a summer and then I went back to school and went to West Valley College and studied park management. Erik: Cool. Mark: And became a ranger at Yosemite. I remember my first job wasn't exactly my idea being a ranger. There I was sitting in this little kiosk, this little booth, at Big Oak Flat, the entrance to Yosemite. In those days it was a three dollar entrance fee and I'd collect the money and be breathing in auto fumes all day long. That really wasn't [00:12:00] my idea of being a ranger. But it was entry level. The next summer I went down to Yosemite Valley and started working at the visitor's center doing interpretation. Interpreting the natural processes of the park, the public. Bear management, geology, climbing was a big subject too. I'd give programs on climbing, talk about A climbing versus free climbing. Jeff: Were you transparent with people that would come through the park, with how your injury took place? [00:12:30] When you'd talk about the [crosstalk 00:12:31] Mark: I was, I was. I would start my climbing program off with my accident, actually. And bring that in, because I think that was a big part of it. They might say, "Well who's this guy in a wheelchair, what does he know about climbing?" I'd kind of bring that in. That was before I climbed El Cap, I was doing those things. Jeff: Were you percolating on doing something like that when you were there? Mark: I was. It's kind of an interesting story. There was a magazine called Sports And Spokes, it was a wheelchair [00:13:00] athletic magazine. On the front cover on that magazine was a DSUSA chapter, a woman who was being lowered down a cliff in a wheelchair on a river rafting trip. The river went over a waterfall, and then you did portage all the equipment around the waterfall. They had a swami belt and a climbing rope and they had a helmet, I guess they wanted to put a helmet on her for safety, sounded like a good idea. And they lowered her down this cliff in this wheelchair, [00:13:30] and it was on the front cover of this magazine, Sports And Spokes. I got the magazine at my little cabin in Yosemite and I had it on my lap. I was wheeling over to the visitor center to open it up in the morning, and I bumped into my future climbing partner Mike Corbet. And Mike's nickname was Mr. El Cap back in the 80s, he had climbed El Cap more than anybody else in the world, over 50 times. And Mike had never really talked about climbing to me because he knew that's how I got hurt. But when [00:14:00] I showed him this picture, Mike's eyes got really big, and he got really excited. He goes, "You know what Mark, I wanna start climbing with you, but what I really wanna do is climb El Cap." And we had no idea how we were gonna do it. Dave: That's great. Mark: That evening, we were sitting at the mountain room bar, we might have had a beer or two. Dave: Or three. Jeff: That's where all good decisions are made. Mark: Where all good decisions are made. So we had a little beer napkin and we started writing down notes. We said, "Okay, [00:14:30] we're gonna take a jumar..." A jumar is a rope ascender, this was back in the day, kind of like what Kleenex is to tissue. So we took a jumar, and we mounted a pull up bar and a jumar, and then we had a second ascender on a chest harness. And we put a rope up right by the Ahwahnee Hotel. Church ball tree. It was an oak tree. We had this rope and we started ascending up into the tree and then he'd lower me back down. So we go, "Okay, [00:15:00] so a paraplegic can ascend a rope using their upper body strength. Now to get on El Capitan, we got to actually protect your lower extremities from the granitic rock." We knew we were gonna be up there at least a week. I don't have feeling in my legs, so I really needed to protect my legs from any kind of abrasion or any kind of sore that could have occurred up there. We went down to this hardware store in Fresno, California outside [00:15:30] of the park. We bought some leather, a speedy stitcher, some closed cell insulation foam, and we just started making these rock chaps and they sort of evolved over a course of six months. We were climbing Jam Crack, Warner's... Erik: Weren't they... what was the material of those? I've felt your chaps before. That sound's weird... Dave: The truth comes out. Jeff: Hey, we're all friends here. Mark: The original [00:16:00] rock chaps were made out of leather and canvas. But the pair of rock chaps you felt were actually made out of some kind of silky material. No, no... Dave: Oh that was lingerie? Not chaps. Jeff: This was the first No Barriers improv meeting, what you're talking about, with your buddy Mike. Mark: Absolutely. Jeff: That was it, that was the genesis of what... fast forward to today, that was the beginning. What [00:16:30] year was that? 1980... Mark: That was 1988. Jeff: 88. There you go. Mark: Yeah 88. I was 28 years old. Erik: So if you think about it that way, No Barriers began in the Ahwahnee bar. Jeff: Yeah, on a bar stool. On a bar napkin. Dave: I know you guys are all dirt bag climbers. I'm not a dirt bag climber. For our listeners who are not dirt bag climbers, someone paint a picture, because we're getting to the El Cap story. Which is a phenomenal story. Paint a picture of El Cap for us, because not everyone knows what that is. Jeff: Yeah, well. El Cap [00:17:00] is probably the most revered, iconic, monolith in North America if not the world. Uninterrupted, over 3000 feet of granite. It is... when you're in Yosemite, you look up at it and it's got this perfectly symmetrical flank apron on both sides that comes out into this promontory called the nose. And [00:17:30] you can't take your eyes off it. If you look away for a minute, you have to look back at it just cause it's so magnificent and powerful. And it represents so much too. If you want to call yourself a climber, you kind of have to climb El Cap at some point. Erik: When you stand in the meadows below, which is just clogged with tourists just all driving by gawking. What I've heard, is you have to look up and up and up, way higher than [00:18:00] you think you have to. Dave: And if you see a person climbing, as a person who's not a technical climber speaking, you think "Those people are crazy. They're insane. What are they doing up there?" Jeff: Erik and I climbed El Cap. And his dad, Erik's dad, and future wife were down there in the meadow with telescopes watching us. We had one of those little lighty things, little sticks, and we were shining our headlamps down at everybody. It's [00:18:30] a magnificent thing, but it's also very intimidating. It can be very cool when you stand up and look at it, but then the idea of going and climbing it I think is a whole different story. Erik: And as a quote on quote gimp, and that's a word by the way that Mark taught me. I never even heard that word before. It's one of those words I guess you somehow have the license to use if you are... Mark: If you are. Erik: If you are in a chair or you are blind. So what did, when you talked about this out loud, what did people [00:19:00] think? Are people like, "You're nuts." Mark: Yeah, we had kind of a mixture of both. People that knew us, were "Oh yeah you guys should go do this." Mark's been training, he's always skiing, always riding his bike, hand bike around... well in those days it was more of a row cycle. And then we had people say, mainly not to me so much but more to Mike, "Are you crazy? Take this paraplegic guy up El Cap? Seems like a really stupid [00:19:30] idea. Something could go wrong." But fortunately, we didn't really listen to that. We just started training, we made these rock chaps. Like I said, they kind of just evolved over about a six month period. We kind of have a little circuit in Yosemite Valley that we climbed together. We did Jam Crack, the Prude, Warner's Crack, The Rostrum, we went over there. Erik: Oh, wow. Mark: So we did some stuff in the Valley [00:20:00] just to really warm up. And then I actually went up and spent a night on El Cap. Because we wanted to feel what that was like. Jeff: Up at sickle? Mark: We actually went to Heart Ledge. Erik: Wow. Jeff: Over on the south. Mark: Yeah, over on the south. The route we were gonna climb was a shield. So... Jeff: Cause it's overhanging. Mark: It was overhanging... once you get over the shield roof it's overhanging. The beginning of it's not. It's pretty low angle. Jeff: Were you scared at all before you did this or [00:20:30] were you just super fired up and kind of naïve? Mark: I was scared the night before. Jeff: You were. Mark: Yeah. Jeff: Like really scared? Mark: Yeah I was... couldn't sleep. This kind of what happened was... really Mike, about two weeks before we're gonna blast off, Mike goes, "Man we've trained so hard for this, I'm gonna write a letter to Tom Brokaw..." who is the national NBC News guy, who is a climber too, a little bit. And, I'm going, "Okay... " so basically [00:21:00] Corbet just wrote out a note with a pencil. He was a janitor at the Yosemite Medical Clinic to support his addiction to climbing. He just wrote a little note to Tom Brokaw, and I think three or four days later he's talking to... Tom Brokaw called the medical clinic and talked to Mike, and said "We want to come out and do this story." Erik: Gosh. Mark: And all of a sudden the pressure was on. That's when I really was thinking, "Wow you're telling national news, this is gonna add [00:21:30] a lot more pressure for myself." But as soon as we got to the base of El Cap and I touched that granite, all that training and preparation really got into par, and I got relaxed. I started doing pull up after pull up, dragging myself up the largest unbroken granite cliff in North America, El Capitan, and the first night... we do something called, we fix pitches. So we were fixed [00:22:00] up about 800 feet. So we had... Mike used to say, "It's always nice to kind of have a jumpstart." Erik: Right. Mark: You know, fix those lines, get all your water, we had 250 pounds... Erik: It's like a trail of ropes that go up 800 feet so you can just... Mark: The next morning... Erik: Start on the ground and zip up 800 feet and have like a jumpstart on this gigantic monolith. Mark: Exactly. And have all your water, all your gear up there. So he had to work three or four days to make that happen prior to us [00:22:30] leaving. Once we left Mammoth Terrace, we were on our own. We went through the Gray Ledges, and we went over... the roof was really tremendous. Because Mike is basically climbing upside down, and then gets up onto the pitch above it and fixes a rope. Then I kind of untied myself and I swing underneath that roof, and you can hear the cheers of the people down below. It's like [00:23:00] what Jeff was saying, It's quite a scene at the El Cap meadow. You really have to have binoculars. It's hard to see climbers up there, because they're so tiny, they're like little ants up there. If you don't know what to look for, it's hard to see these people. The crowd was yelling, and the green dragon would come by. It's a tour vehicle that has it's open air shuttle. Erik: "If you look upright you will see a nutcase [00:23:30] climbing El Capitan." Mark: We could actually hear them talking about "Mike Corbet, Mark Wellman, first paraplegic..." So that was kind of interesting. Finally when we topped out, it was seven nights, eight days of climbing. This was before digital technology on El Cap, when national news came out. They had a mule train, they brought out a satellite dish that was like five feet wide, and we were live on top of El [00:24:00] Cap talking to Tom Brokaw. Jeff: Sick. Mark: And we've got... between the Today Show and NBC News, and in a week we were on TV for like several hours if you took all the time that they played this. There wasn't really much going on in the news, so they really kind of played this story up in a big way. As soon as we got off that climb, about a week later, we're sitting in the Oval [00:24:30] Office talking to President Bush. It was myself, Mike Corbet, "Writtenaur" who was Secretary of the Interior, and Jack Morehead, superintendent of Yosemite. The four of us are in the White House, in the Oval Office, talking about bone fishing because President Bush loved to bone fish and we presented him with a flag that we took with us on the climb, and it changed my life. Erik: Mark, so you're not that old, but I see [00:25:00] you sort of as the father of adventur e sports for people with disabilities. I want people to understand that the idea to climb El Cap back in the 80s... nowadays, I think... how many people have climbed El Cap in chairs, paras? Mark: Oh the chairs? Erik: Dozens, right? Mark: Yeah, dozens. Erik: But you sort of unleashed that. You opened up this door. And now, quote on quote gimps are doing everything, right? Mark: Every summer there's [00:25:30] a paraplegic. Erik: But you opened that door for all of us. So, it's sort of a crazy thought to me. Mark: It is. You can't take the first ascent of El Cap, you can't take that away from me. That's something I'll always remember. It was a huge accomplishment for both Mike and I, and there's been different paraplegics who have gone up it. A gentleman with cerebral palsy, Steve Wampler, was probably the most [00:26:00] disabled person that's been up there. Lots of amputees. I call them amputees, hardly disabled. Paraplegics wanna be amputees. Erik: Those will be our first complaint letters. Dave: Exactly. [crosstalk 00:26:15] Mark: Quadriplegics wanna be paraplegics. Everybody has their differences. There's been a quadriplegic, incomplete quadriplegic, climbed El Cap with Tommy Thompson, good climber. [00:26:30] Steve Muse. Erik: There's that kid who climbed The Chief, he was inspired by you. Mark: Yep. Erik: He was a quad, and he climbed The Chief. He invented kind of this, almost like a contraption with wheels if I remember right, that kind of rolled up the face. Mark: Yeah it was... the premise was taking the Dolt cart. A climber by name of Dolt had this cart and he used to use it for a hauling system on El Cap. Brad "Szinski", the Canadian guy you're talking about, he came up with this [00:27:00] cart. His hands didn't really work as well as a paraplegic, he lost some muscle mass in his hands and fingers. So he had a different type of system where he could ascend a rope using a crank, and developed that. So there's been all kinds of different adaptations that allow people that are wheelchair users to go rock climbing. Jeff: This sort of set you [00:27:30] on this course to being an improvisational pioneer, those are my words. Were you like that always or do you feel like your accident cued you up for this opportunity to then over the past thirty years... Mark: Thirty five. Jeff: Yeah thirty five years. Now you've continued this trajectory of being this pioneer when it comes to just making it work. You make it work, right? Mark: I was so young. When I got hurt [00:28:00] I was 22. I wasn't climbing big walls, I hadn't got to that point yet of climbing El Cap. Finally, when I did have my accident it kind of made sense. The steeper the climb for somebody in a chair the better. Mountaineering is gonna be really tough. There are ways of doing mountaineering. We got four paraplegics on top of Mount Shasta. Erik: Yep. Mark: And there was a guy named Pete "Rikee". It's funny... people [00:28:30] come to me if they've got an idea, a lot of times they'll want me to be a part of the project. Least... Erik: That was a pod that they were in, that had almost like tractor wheels, right? Mark: Exactly. What we did is we took a snowmobile and cut the snowmobile track in half and made a tractor stance. So you have two tracks and a seat with a bicycle crank, and we actually crank our way up Mount Shasta. We had to get special permit from the Forest [00:29:00] Service. You can only be on Shasta for three days, and we knew we were gonna be up there for a week. So I had to drive up... I was trying to explain to this district ranger on the telephone, he really wasn't getting it. Erik: Sometimes they don't get it. Mark: And he wasn't getting it at all. He was thinking mechanical device... Jeff: Motorized... Mark: Right. He knew who I was, so he said "Come up and bring the machine with you so I can take a look at it." So I brought one of the snow pods up there and I met with the district ranger [00:29:30] and a couple of his back country rangers, and they got it. They said, "This is cool man, we'd like to let you guys do this." They gave us a special use permit. The big thing about the Forest Service and wilderness, or National Park Service wilderness, you cannot take... supposedly mechanized devices cannot go into the wilderness. But if you have a disability, your bicycle could almost be considered a wheelchair, or your snow pod can be considered [00:30:00] a wheelchair. Long as it doesn't have a Briggs and Stratton engine on it. That was the big thing, it has to be a manual piece of a gear that's human powered. So we got that, and we got four paraplegics on top of Mount Shasta. Erik: And El Cap really launched you into being able to do all these amazing things, right? You pretty much became a professional climber, adventurer, doing these things around the world. I know you lit the torch for the Paralympics, right? Mark: I did, I lit the Paralympic torch in Atlanta in 1996. [00:30:30] Muhammad Ali lit it for the able bodied Olympics. They had this torch, and the night before we're training for it... it's a big surprise, they don't want to see the person light the torch the night before, no media, so we're out there. I was gonna climb an 80 foot rope doing rope ascension, doing pull up after pull up. And North Face made me a little, kind of a... we envisioned this Robin Hood thing with... behind [00:31:00] my shoulders, this arrow quiver where I put the actual torch in. I didn't wanna burn my hair, what's left of it, so... Erik: You had a lot more hair... Mark: So I said, "Let's make this torch holder so it comes off your legs." So they made that for me. That night we're training, I get up the 80 foot rope, and I lit the fuse and the fuse blew out. Erik: Oh no. Mark: And the pyrotechnics guy goes, it was windy, and the [00:31:30] next day it was gonna be windy too. So the pyrotechnics guy guys... "Okay Mark, I'll make sure this fuse doesn't go out the night you do it." And I go, "Great." So I get up there in front of 80,000 people, I'm climbing up this rope. Liza Minnelli is singing this song and she's going "Go Mark, Go Mark." The whole stadium of 80,000 people is going nuts. So I lit this fuse, and literally the thing blew up. There was fire all over me. And I'm leaning back, hoping I'm not gonna catch [00:32:00] on fire. Then the fuse went up and lit the actual cauldron, and that was the start of the 1996 Summer Olympics. Jeff: You did not combust. Mark: I did not combust. I had the best seat in the house. Erik: You'd be like a Motley Crue drummer. Mark: Exactly. So that was fun. Erik: Takes us on a little tour of what you did. All those amazing adventures that you did after that. Takes us on a little tour around the world. Mark: What a lot of people don't realize, which I think is harder than climbing [00:32:30] El Cap, or spending 13 days on Half Dome was another big ascent we did years ago... but was doing the Trans Sierra ski crossing. I've done it twice now. I did it in 1993, it was a big winner, and I did it in 2011. So we took a cross country Nordic sit ski. You sit low to the ground, you have two skis mounted underneath a frame with a seat, and you're sitting maybe a foot off the snow. And you have two [00:33:00] poles, and you actually double pole. So you're double poling to make this device go down the trail. I was on the US Disabled Nordic Ski Team. Competed in two Paralympics, in France and in Norway. Got beat up by the Finns, the Norwegians, they're so passionate about that sport. Jeff: And they're vikings. Mark: And they're vikings, man. They're so tough. My best finish out of 30 guys was of fifth place, that was in France. [00:33:30] In Norway, I got even more beat up. I wanted to actually get into Nordic ski racing because I had other things I wanted to do. I wanted to try to get into the back country in a Nordic ski. Back in 93 a guy named Jeff Pegles and myself was also on the US disabled Nordic team. We took sleds, little polks, behind our rigs. We had our bivy gear. And we skied 55 miles from Snowline [00:34:00] on the east side of the Sierra on Tioga road, we got someone to open up the gate. Guy that worked for the power company opened up the gate. We got up to Snowline and we skied from Snowline to Crane Flat, which is 55 miles. Jeff: Wow. Mark: Following the Tioga road. Jeff: Just the two of you? Mark: Well we also had Pearlman with us too. Erik: Filming. Mark: He was filming, yeah. Erik: And, you gotta tell the story about the White Rim. So you biked the White Rim, I think you were on one off mountain bikes? Mark: [00:34:30] Yep. Erik: Or some kind of devices, hand crank mountain bikes. And it was so sandy, the story I heard, you had to get out and you had to pretty much pull yourself on your arms and pull your chair, did you pull the other guys chairs too? Or were the other guys' bikes... Mark: It was an epic, groveling adventure. Seems like everything I do turns into that. Jeff: Yeah. [crosstalk 00:34:50] Mark: If you're not suffering, you're not having a good time. That's kind of how it is out there. We had these one off mountain bikes and [00:35:00] we actually did a Jeep tour to kind of check it out a couple years prior. We did have it a little easier, we didn't carry all our water and food with us, we had a swag wagon out there. Suburban, follow the four paraplegics. Myself, Bob Vogel, and Steve Ackerman. We rode this, 52 miles is the full circumnav of the White Rim. There was times, [00:35:30] yeah, it was an interesting experience out there because some of these washes were like moon dust. We couldn't get our bikes through it. So I had a pair of rock chaps with me and I threw the rock chaps on and did some crawling. Had an 11 mil static rope and dragged the guys behind me. Did a few epic things like that. Jeff: I mean, If I'm riding my mountain bike and I come up on that scene in the middle of the White Rim, who knows what to make of that? Mark: [00:36:00] You can walk man, so best thing to do is just walk your bike. Jeff: Like, "You guys are good right?" and they'll be like "Yep, we're good man." Erik: Leave us alone. Jeff: Leave us alone. Mark: Don't touch me. Jeff: There's nothing to see here. Yeah. Erik: Yeah. Jeff: Wow, that's rad. Mark: And then recently, just a couple of years ago... in the winter we had a drought in California and Tahoe, so I circumnaved Lake Tahoe in a kayak in winter. And that was a really amazing adventure. It was 72 [00:36:30] miles, two nights of camping. But the cool thing was, and it was cool at night, it was really cold at night. There was no power boats. In the winter you don't have any power boats on Lake Tahoe, it was kind of like being out there in the 1800s. Seeing bald eagles, none of the tourists were on the water, it was really a fantastic trip. Dave: So Mark, you are someone who really embodies the spirit of No Barriers and you helped [00:37:00] start the organization. So tell us, all these adventures, all these things you've done to challenge what's possible, what people think is possible. Why No Barriers? Tell us that story. Mark: You know, No Barriers... I did a movie called No Barriers, and I got a poster out called No Barriers. It was a word that really meant a lot to me. My wife and I, we were down in San Francisco at a fundraiser... in those days it was called Yosemite Fund, now it's called Yosemite [00:37:30] Conservancy. We were at this dinner, and I met this kind of wild old character named Jim Goldsmith. And Jim came up to me, knew who I was... we started talking. He had a cabin in the subdivision I live in called Tahoe Dawner. So Jim and I, and Carol, and his wife Connie would get together, we had a couple of dinners together. And then Jim started talking about the Dolomites, and his [00:38:00] son-in-law and daughter. And he said, "Man, it would be really neat to kind of do something for disabled people and able bodied people if we did something in the Dolomites." And I go, "Man, I know a couple of guys who I've done some stuff with, a guy named Hugh Herr, double amputee who's done some rock climbing with him, and Erik Weihenmayer." This was probably after your Everest... Erik: Yeah, after. Mark: This was after your Everest climb. And I said "Hey, these [00:38:30] guys..." we did a climb out in Moab Utah, the three of us, it was kind of gimp helping gimp, it was this real magical event out there. Which was really cool... Erik: Climbing the Fisher Tower. Mark: Yeah. The Fisher Tower. Ancient Ark. Erik: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Mark: And it was this really fantastic climb. I'd like to get these two guys involved with what we're talking about. SO I called Erik, I called Hugh, and we ended up putting our first [00:39:00] little... in those days, it was more of a festival, we called it, instead of a summit. We did it in the Dolomites. It was a very obscure little place up in the mountains, this real beautiful location, but nothing was really accessible. The hotels weren't that accessible, everything was kind of difficult to put this together. But it was this real magical place in the mountains... Erik: I remember the chair operators didn't even know how to get people with disabilities on the chairs. Mark: They didn't have [00:39:30] an idea. They didn't... yeah. Erik: On the ski lifts. Thank you. Yeah. Mark: They weren't doing adaptive skiing in those days in that little village. It was actually the home of the 1956 Olympics. SO that was kind of my envision was to start this, and who knew it was gonna get into what it is today. It's just amazing what you guys have done, and all the different things No Barriers has to offer people. Erik: What do you think about when you think about the evolution? You had this little germ [00:40:00] of an idea to go to this town and start talking about accessibility and innovation, and some of your lessons about how you've broken through barriers, or how the three of us had broken through barriers. And now, when you look at it today... Mark: [sighs] It's kind of mind boggling how it's grown so big and how many different people it affects, it's not just the disabled community, it's able bodied community bringing everyone together. Trying new experiences. The youth programs [00:40:30] that you guys have been doing is tremendous over the years. Soldiers to the summit. We're having all these guys coming back doing ten tours, they're not adjusting back into society very well, and taking them out into the outdoors with Jeff and different mountain guides, it just changes their lives. Brings them more back into a reality where they can really kind of adjust back into society. And then the summit is just... I love [00:41:00] coming to the summits. I've been to every one now, I haven't missed one since the beginning. It's gonna be fantastic in New York, I'm really looking forward to that. Erik: And you bring your climbing wall, your portable climbing wall. Mark: I'll have... Erik: Almost to every summit. So that's your mission now, right? To go around and use your climbing wall as a No Barriers tool to help people break through barriers. Tell us about that. Mark: Absolutely. Climbing has been such a big part of my life, that I just like to introduce different [00:41:30] people to the sport. A lot of times, somebody that's... we don't say electric chair, electric chair is something you die in. Power chair. A power chair takes you from point A to point B. A power chair user, a lot of times doesn't have all the... there's not as many things out there for a power chair user to participate in. Climbing on my wall, they can. We have these harnessing systems [00:42:00] that support your core. It's almost like a Bosen's chair, pulley system. If you have the desire to get on the climbing wall, we can facilitate that. We don't turn anybody away. We've had people that weigh 500 pounds on my wall before. Very obese wheelchair users... it doesn't matter. I had a gentleman that had spina bifida and he was unfortunately caught up in the American society of drinking a lot of soda, [00:42:30] and became really big. We got him on the wall, it was really difficult for him. We would talk to him and he wouldn't really look at you eye to eye as we were talking. I saw him a year later, he dropped 150 pounds, quit the soda, got into a training, cut his hair in a mohawk, and it just changed his life. Got out of the power chair and was in a manual chair. So climbing was kind of the responsibility of really changing this guys life, and now I see [00:43:00] him down in Los Angeles. I probably take the wall to Southern California maybe seven or eight times a year, San Francisco, Bay Area. I sort of have different groups hire me year after year, once they experience the wall they really want to have it be part of their event. We bring in, mini El Cap I call it, and we get people on it and we have a great time. Erik: And you're traveling around with your wall, full time. People bring you in to create this experience for their [00:43:30] rehab hospital or organization or team, right? Mark: Exactly. All those venues... I do adaptive climbing seminars. So a gym might call me and wanna know, "how do we get an adaptive climbing program going?" So I do that. And a lot of times I'll do not only a seminar on adaptive climbing, but then maybe that evening do a show and tell about adventure sports and where adventure sports have taken the disabled in the last 35 [00:44:00] years. Erik: And you are like Kleenex now, because... you talk about the pulley system, it's not a pulley system, pull up system, a lot of people say, "Oh yeah, Mark Wellman system." Mark: Yeah, it's... yeah it's kind of getting that way. Jeff: You're like Beyonce now. Mark: I'm like Beyonce. It's just kind of neat that my passions over the years... everybody should have a passion. And my passion has always been [00:44:30] to be out camping, doing something in the outdoors, coming up with new ideas, new technologies... and some of these technologies are more like a backyard technology. It's not that fancy. Sometimes some of the most simplest things can change something. Like mountain bike tires on a wheelchair can change a chairs getting into the back country tremendously. Mounting a pull up bar in a sender can allow a paraplegic [00:45:00] to do 7000 pull ups in eight days to go up El Cap. Just simple little technologies can really change peoples' lives, and you can take that backyard technology, garage technology, put something together that works for you that can help a whole bunch of people. Dave: I'd like to go back to that... You've told us a story, sort of the arc of your life, and when I look at you Mark and think about what you've accomplished I think "God, this is incredible. [00:45:30] This is an incredible human being that very few people who had what happened to you would ever have chosen the path that you have chosen." And I think, when I think about our No Barriers community, every so often you get folks who will say "Yeah, that's Mark Wellman but that couldn't have been me. You're putting someone in front of me that's so incredible, how could I possibly do this?" Erik: Yeah, you're de motivational. Mark: Right, right. I know, I get it. Dave: I'd love to hear, what do you think we can... 'cause this is what we do at No Barriers. We... If you're [00:46:00] listening to this, it's not like we take everyone up mountains, but we try to remind them about something in their spiri t... Mark: Yeah. Dave: ...that teaches them anything is possible. So talk to us a little bit about, Mark, how did you get to that point? Is it just sort of who you were from the beginning, was it an evolution? It just seems like everything you encountered, you are like, "I can do more." Mark: I think it's really important for people to get out of their comfort zone. Nowadays, it's so easy for young people to get... they get into gaming. And they [00:46:30] just, you know... it's stagnant. You're not getting out of your comfort zone. And the outdoors has a way of getting you out of your comfort zone. And you can make it safe... you don't need to think about what I do, it's more about finding, maybe getting some different experiences. And that's what's so cool about the summit. You have all these different activities going on where you just get a little taste of it. And hopefully [00:47:00] that little taste will inspire your imagination to want to try it again. And that's where I think it's really important if you're facilitating skiing or climbing, or whatever you're facilitating, you have to make sure that these people, their first experience is a good one. If they don't have a good experience, most likely they're not gonna go back to it. And, it's really important that the very first time... One of our board members, Sasha. [00:47:30] He was an academia guy, a professor. He came to the No Barriers event in Squaw Valley, the first one. Never had tried climbing before, and we took him to Donner Summit and got him up on this road cut climb that's 80 feet with big exposure, and it changed the guys life. It was something he was real nervous about, but it was getting him out of his comfort zone, and him [00:48:00] really having, you know... it was exciting for him, it was thrilling, it was challenging not only physically but mentally challenging at the same time. All those things combined. Kind of changed his life. And he became a board member of No Barriers because of that. Dave: Yeah. Mark: And there's stories like that all the time. Or Mandy, I remember her... wonderful singer. She got on my wall, it was 25 feet, and she [00:48:30] was really scared. It was a really scary moment for her where she had this big fear of heights. It wasn't like she was on a 1000 foot rope, she was on a 24 foot wall. But she might have well have been. Jeff: Relative for her. Mark: Could have been a 1000 foot climb. But she made it through. And came down... I got a guy that helps me, Wes, he's a search and rescue guy, kind of a big guy. He's just magical with [00:49:00] people, and really helped her a lot. So, you have all these different experiences... Erik: And I think that experience, by the way, gave her the courage to go out and do something completely non-climbing related, which was to write music and to go on to America's Got Talent, and... Mark: Exactly. Erik: Get into the finals, and now skyrocket into stardom. Mark: To fame. Absolutely. Making a better quality life for herself. [00:49:30] A lot of times when you say, somebody that's a wheelchair user... what is it, like 90 percent of the people in wheelchairs don't have jobs. And it's always kind of bummed me out, I'm thinking, "Wow." Why would you wanna be caught in a system like with Social Security and be basically poor your whole life, because "Oh I have Medicare, I have my Social Security disability," So you're trying to live on six to eight hundred dollars a month. And you're caught [00:50:00] in this kind of vicious circle. You've got to get away from that somehow, and get into the workforce, be productive. You're gonna feel better, you're gonna be a more productive citizen in this country, and you're not gonna be wrapped up in this vicious circle of never getting ahead and always having the government thumb you down, so to speak. Erik: Last question for [00:50:30] you from my end, this is Erik, and I wanna know, I've made it kind of clear that I look up to you. Tell me, who are the people that you look up to? Tell us about that guy Larry, tell us about some people who influenced your life. Mark: Oh man. There's been a lot for sure. There was a guy named... actually I think you're thinking of a guy named Mark Sutherland. When I first got hurt, Mark was a quadriplegic ten [00:51:00] years post to my injury. And he was back in the hospital. He had a bone spur, the spur was touching his spinal cord, and he was losing some of his action. Some quadriplegic can move their arms and they can push manual chairs, and he was one of those. But he was losing some of his arm strength, so he was in the hospital, and my room was next to his. We would talk at night. 'Cause I was really bummed out when I was first injured. To me, being a paraplegic was a fate [00:51:30] worse than death. I was on the sixth floor, if I could have crawled over to the window and jumped out I would have cause that's how bad I felt. I was just thinking, "Not having the use of my legs, I'm not gonna ski again, I'm not gonna climb." I was 22, I was just like, "Why didn't the mountain just take me." Those were the kind of thoughts I was having. But then I would go into this guys room, Mark Sutherland, and he would talk about, "Oh I had this milk truck that I converted, and I had a stool. One time I was driving it with my hand controls [00:52:00] and I fell off the stool, and I was on the ground and I had to throw my hand on the brake to stop it so I didn't kill anybody." Jeff: And you were like, "That's the greatest story ever." Mark: Yeah. I wanna do that. So I was just hearing this stuff from this guy, and he was talking about girlfriends, and how he was running around doing this and doing that, and I'm going, "Man, this guy has a life." And it was really inspiring to be... so where I was really depressed and laying in the hospital bed, and couldn't feel [00:52:30] my lower extremities, and "What's a catheter?" And I'm just like, "Man, this is horrible, what did I get myself into." And this guy was really upbeat and uplifting... Jeff: Showed you it wasn't a death sentence. Mark: Yeah. Showed me it wasn't a death sentence, and let's get on with life, dude. And it was like, boom. That just changed me. Then we went into rehab together, we were more in a hospital setting and then we both went into our physical rehab. That's [00:53:00] when it just started clicking for me, and that was it. Dave: Well, just to wrap up this excellent conversation that we're having about the history of No Barriers and all that you've done as well just individually, you've seen No Barriers be this thing that started in the Dolomites in 2003, we're 15 years into this. What's your dream for what it becomes? Mark: Wow. I would just consider it to be... I'd like to see maybe a couple summits a year, possible. [00:53:30] More, smaller clinics would be really cool too. I think you guys are really on a good, good path. But maybe some smaller events too. Just keep growing it. Keep doing more of these kinds of things. More technology. Bringing in more people, better speakers. Better people that are... or people that are doing more things that inspire others that give the ideas [00:54:00] to do more things. I'm amazed in 15 years where it's come to. Who knows where it's gonna go. Another 15 years from now, man this could be a huge, huge organization that could affect a lot of people and bring a lot of people together. This whole family, bringing the tribe together. It's always fun at the summits, and seeing people I haven't seen for a year, [00:54:30] spending time with them. I love getting people out climbing, so that's my passion. Erik: What if people want to learn how to get in touch with you, how to work with you, how to bring your wall to their organization? Mark: Yeah. Google Mark Wellman or just go to my website, No Limits Tahoe dot com. Give me a call. Erik: Although they won't talk to you, 'cause you're never home. You're always out [crosstalk 00:54:55] or something. Dave: Always on the road, right. Mark: Well, no, yeah I'm easy to get a hold of. Talk to my wife, Carol, [00:55:00] and I can get back to you. Erik: Right. Mark: Send me an email. I'm better on the phone, I don't like to email tons. Love to talk to you, if you have ideas lets talk about, lets see you at the summit. Lets get out and enjoy life. Erik: Cool. Well thank you so much Mark. Jeff: Listen Mark, I know you well enough to know you don't need to hear what I'm about to tell you, but, I think it's important for you and the listeners to know [00:55:30] in conversations like this, it becomes so clear how you are sort of the upside down pyramid. And you're the point on the upside down pyramid. And it all sort of funnels up from you, really. And I know there's others, but you're the man. And I know it's important for you, it is important for me to know that you know how many thousands of lives you've impacted. Erik: Tens of thousands. Jeff: Thousands of lives dude. You have been the kick starter [00:56:00] and the imputes. And you're just one of the most wonderful pioneers. I know you know it, but you need to hear it more, because you're the man. Mark: I appreciate it man, it's humbling. And, to take a passion that I had and a dream... and like I said, just simple adaptations, a pull up bar on a jumar. Man, how that changed other people to go climb up El Cap, or do Castleton, or whatever [00:56:30] mountain you want to get up, it's been a pretty cool experience. It's been fun to work with other companies. We're making more adaptive climbing equipment now. It's really kind of evolved from just handmade rock chaps to a real sophisticated pair of rock chaps that allows people to get out there and do a lot of cool stuff. Dave: Well it's been an honor to have you here Mark, I know many of our listeners are part of that No Barriers tribe. Many of them will know you, but a [00:57:00] lot of them won't. The movement has grown so big that it's well beyond you. But per what Jeff was saying, it's so important I think for the people of our community to know where this began. Mark: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Dave: And you are the point that Jeff mentioned where it began, and so, thank you so much for joining us, we appreciate having you. Mark: My pleasure. Erik: What did you guys take away from that? Might take us a while. Dave: Yeah. Exactly. Jeff: Might be a lengthy debrief on that one. Dave: I guess for me, as someone who's helping to build [00:57:30] this movement, like I was ending with there, just to remember the roots of where No Barriers began which is individuals coming together in small communities around creative ideas to do stuff that people didn't think was possible. And as we start to move to tens of thousands, maybe millions over the next ten years of people that we impact, that there's something in that special sauce that's still about the [00:58:00] individuals getting together having a fun, creative idea and going out and pushing their comfort zone. Erik: Yeah. I think that, No Barriers recipe is sort of hidden right in the story of El Capitan, which is... Mark's a smart guy, but he's not a scientist or anything, he's not Hugh Herr, who's inventing stuff where you go, "I could never do that." What he said is a pull up bar and a jumar. These are commercially available things. I think he had to adapt a few things, but [00:58:30] not all that crazy technology. Pretty simple. You combine that series, that innovation with the human spirit and a great friend or great support system, a great rope team, you do this amazing thing that opens up the door for a lot of people. It's a pretty simple recipe. Dave: It is. Jeff: All the big things that have happened with regards to our species all started with this small [00:59:00] germination of somebody sitting in their theoretical garage just being like, "How do I do this? Hmm?" And head scratch, and start piecing these things together, and then, boom, the movement begins. I think Mark embodies that, and what a great cornerstone for this organization. Dave: Well, and the movement continues. So if you're sitting there listening saying, "I wanna be a part of this organization, I wanna be a [00:59:30] part of No Barriers," please go to our website, No Barriers USA dot org. You can join us at the summit that Mark mentioned that's coming up in October in New York. There are many more ways you can join us but please, No Barriers USA dot org is our website. You can also share our podcast with your friends and colleagues and families, and follow us on our Facebook page. Thank you so much for listening. Erik: Live No Barriers. Dave: Thanks.

Jeff:  Welcome back to Emplify, the podcast corollary to EB Medicine’s Emergency Medicine Practice. I’m Jeff Nusbaum, and I’m back with my co-host, Nachi Gupta and we’ll be taking you through the September 2018 issue of Emergency Medicine Practice - Emergency Department Management of North American Snake envenomations. Nachi: Although this isn’t something we encountered too frequently – it does seem like I’ve been hearing more about snake bites in the recent months. Jeff: I actually flew someone just the other day because the local ED ran out of CroFab after an envenomation in Western PA. Nachi: Yeah, this is definitely more than “just a boards topic,” and it’s really important to know about in those rare circumstances. In terms of incidence, there are actually about 10,000 ED visits in the US for snake bites each year, and 1/3 of these involve venomous species. Jeff:  That’s a good teaser, so let’s start by recognizing this month’s team – the two authors, Dr. Sheikh, a medical toxicologist, and Patrick Leffers, a pharmD, and emergency medicine and clinical toxicology fellow. Both are at the University of Florida Jacksonville, and they reviewed a total of 120 articles from 2006-2017, in addition to reviews from both Cochrane and Dare. Nachi: And don’t forget our peer reviewers this month, Dr. Daniel Sessions, a medical toxicologist working at the South Texas Poison Center, and our very own editor-in-chief, Dr. Andy Jagoda, who is also Chair of the Department of Emergency Medicine at Mount Sinai in New York City. Jeff: What a team! But, let’s get back to the snakes. As some background, from 2006-2015 there were almost 66,000 reported snake exposures and 31 deaths from snake envenomation in the US.  Of course, this number likely underestimates the true total. Nachi: And there are two key subfamilies of venomous snakes to be aware of – the Crotalinae – or pit vipers – which includes rattlesnakes, copperheads, and water moccasins; and the Elapidae – of which you really only need to know about the coral snake. Jeff:  And while those are the only two NATIVE snake subfamilies to be acutely aware of, don’t forget that exotic snakes, which are shockingly popular pets -- they can also cause significant morbidity and mortality. Nachi:  Oh, and one other quick note before we get into the epidemiology – most of the recommendations this month come from expert opinion, as high quality RCTs are obviously difficult.  In addition, many of the studies were based in other countries, where the snakes, the anti-venoms and their availability, and the general healthcare systems are different from those that most of us work in. Jeff:  Unless we have listeners abroad? Do we have listeners in other countries? Nachi: Oh we definitely do... but we are going to be a bit biased towards US envenomation today. In any case, venomous snake bites occur most frequently in men aged 18 to 49 during warmer months with provoked bites occurring more frequently in the upper extremities and unprovoked bites in the lower extremities. Jeff:  In one study of poison center data from the last decade, nearly half of all victims of snake bites were victims of unknown type snakes.  However, of those that were known, copperheads were the most common, while rattlesnakes caused the most fatalities – 19 of 31 in this dataset. Nachi:  In a separate study of snake bites in the early 2000s, 32% of exposures were from venomous snakes and 59% of those resulted in admission. That’s remarkably high. Jeff:  Snake bite severity depends on several key factors: the amount of venom, the composition of the venom, the body size of the bite victim, the victim's clothing, the size of the bite, comorbid conditions, and the timing and quality of medical care the victim receives. Nachi:  To be a bit more specific - First, the amount of venom will depend on the species of snake, with variations even occurring within the same species.  Secondly, while there is a correlation between rattlesnake size and bite severity, there is much more at play.  Some snakes can even vary the amount of venom based on threat risk – with defensive bites having different profiles than bites to strike prey. Jeff: I found it pretty interesting that  an estimated 10-25% of pit viper bites are considered dry bites, that is, ones in which no venom is released. Nachi:  Right, this is just one reason why all victims shouldn’t immediately get anti-venom, but we’ll get there. Jeff:  We definitely will.  As we already stated – venom composition varies greatly.  Pit vipers produce a predominantly hemotoxic venom.  Systemic effects include tachycardia, tachypnea, hypotension, nausea, vomiting, weakness, and diaphoresis.  Neurotoxicity is rare and is usually due to inter-breeding between species. Nachi:  While rattlesnake bites are associated with higher morbidity and mortality, the more common copperhead bites typically only cause local tissue effects.  More serious systemic findings such as coagulopathy and respiratory failure have been reported though. Jeff:  So that’s a solid background to get us started.  Let’s talk about the individual snakes.  Why don’t you start with the crotalinae family – aka the pit vipers. Nachi:  Sure – the crotalinae includes rattlesnakes, cottonmouths (also known as water moccasins), and copperheads.  These make up the vast majority of reports to the poison centers.  They can be identified by their heat sensing pits located behind their nostrils (hence pit vipers).  As a general rule, you can also identify the venomous snakes by their triangular or spade-like head, elliptical pupils, and hollow retractable fangs. Jeff:  wait, so you want me to walk up to the snake and ask to see if their fangs retract… yea, no thanks. Nachi: Haha, of course not, I’m just giving you some of the general principles here. In contrast, non-venomous pit vipers have rounded heads, round pupils, a double row of vertical scales, and they lack fangs. Jeff: In terms of location, rattlesnakes are found in all states but Hawaii, and cottonmouths and copperheads are distributed mostly throughout the southern and southeastern states, with copperheads also extending further north, even into Massachusetts. Nachi: Moving on to the Elapidae –  there are 3 species of coral snakes, only two of which you need to know about, Micrurus fulvius fulvius or the eastern coral snake and Micrurus tener or the Texas coral snake.  Of the two, the eastern or Micrurus fulvius fulvius produces more potent venom. Jeff:  As you may have guessed by their names, the eastern coral snake is found in the southeastern united states, specifically, east of the Mississippi -- whereas the Texas coral snake lives west of the Mississippi. Nachi:  Venomous North American coral snakes can be recognized by the red and yellow bands around their bodies whereas their nonvenomous counterparts can be recognized by their characteristic black band between the red and yellow bands. I’m sure you’ve heard the popular mnemonic for this… Red touch yellow kill a fellow, red touch black, venom lack. Jeff:  I have heard that one, and it’s not a bad mnemonic. Just remember that this is more of a guideline than a rule, as it doesn’t always hold true. Nachi: Coral snakes also tend to chew rather than bite thanks to their short, fixed, hollow fangs.  Locally, bites can lead to muscle destruction thanks to a certain myotoxin.  Systemic signs of infection include nausea, vomiting, abdominal pain, and dizziness.  Jeff: The venom also contains a neurotoxin which can lead to diplopia, difficulty swallowing and speaking and generalized weakness. Nachi: Complicating matters even further, the onset of these symptoms may be delayed for many hours. Jeff:  Alright, so I think that about wraps up the background.  Let’s move on to the meat and potatoes of this article, starting with the differential. Nachi:  For differential this month, we are really focusing on differentiating a venomous snake from a non-venomous one. Jeff: Oh yeah, this is where you want us to ask the snake if it can retract its fangs, right? Nachi: Ha very funny – Although the type of snake may be obvious if the patient owns the snake, for most cases you see in the ED, the type of snake won’t be clear. Try to get a description of the snake and consider your local geography. Some patients may even bring the snake in with them. Jeff: yea, no thanks. As for prehospital care, it’s actually pretty interesting stuff as recommendations have changed many times.  You may have heard of the recommendations for incision / excision, use of venom extraction devices, tourniquets, chill methods and even electroshock therapy – well these methods are all OUT. Nachi:  Not only are they out, they actually worsen outcomes, so definitely don’t pursue any of them.  Instead,  since no treatment has been shown to improve outcome, you should prioritize prompt transport. Jeff: And while we definitely don’t want to encourage ill-advised attempts at capturing the snake, taking pictures at a distance may be helpful in identifying it.  Oh and the authors do note- pretty terrifying stuff coming up here so brace yourself - even if the snake is dead the bite reflex is still intact… Nachi: And that’s why I work in city hospitals… Jeff:  There’s also a bit of controversy here with regards to pressure immobilization, which is definitely something I thought we were supposed to do in the prehospital setting. Apparently in other countries, like Australia, prehospital providers frequently employ pressure immobilization – that is, wrapping bandages proximally up a splinted limb to impede lymphatic toxin spread. Nachi:  Right, but in Australia, not only are the snakes more venomous but the hospital transport distances are much longer, so, basically they sacrifice the limb to potentially save a life.  In the US, with our current indigenous snake population and the relatively short transport distances, this isn’t justified at all! Jeff:  Take home: based on the current literature, the American College of Medical Toxicology, other experts, and Drs. Sheikh and Leffers recommend against pressure immobilization in lieu of prompt patient transport to definitive treatment. Nachi:  Good to know – alright so now we have the patient in the emergency department, let’s begin ED care.  As always – IV, O2, Monitor including end tidal CO2 if you suspect a neurotoxic or exotic snake bite.  Of course, avoid using the affected limbs for vitals… Jeff: If not done already, remove any constrictive clothing or jewelry and mark the leading edge of pain, edema, and erythema both above and below the bite.  If EMS has placed bandages, leave them in place until antivenom and resuscitative equipment is ready. Nachi:  And definitely involve the poison control center or a medical toxicology service early as they are an amazing resource. It’s an easy number to remember.. 1-800-222-1222. If you just type “poison control center” into google, that number will come up immediately. Jeff: Hypotension should be treated with isotonic fluids and, as usual, anaphylaxis should be treated with the usual cocktail of antihistamines and epinephrine at first IM and then via infusion if refractory. Note that antivenom will NOT reverse anaphylaxis on its own. Nachi:  When eliciting a history, there are a number of important factors to look out for, including – time and location of the bite, description of the snake, tetanus status, comorbid conditions, medications and allergies, any systemic or neurologic symptoms, muscle cramps, perioral tingling or numbness, metallic taste, history of previous snakebites and any reactions to previous envenomation or antivenom treatment. Jeff: Moving on to the physical exam, when examining the wound, look specifically for local tissue effects which occur in over 90% of patients after pit viper envenomations.  In such cases, you would expect pain, erythema, swelling, tenderness, and myonecrosis beginning at the wound site and then spreading via the lymphatic system. Nachi:  In addition, specifically with pit viper envenomations, monitor the patient for possible compartment syndrome as the venom can lead to local tissue destruction, increased cell permeability, third spacing of fluids, and bleeding.  And remember that while the local compartment may be hypertensive, the patient may also have systemic hypotension. Jeff: Just to reiterate what I said before – hypotension may indicate severe anaphylaxis and its not necessarily just due to third spacing.  Regardless, the treatment is the same – epinephrine. Nachi:  Good point, but let’s focus on compartment syndrome for a minute.  True compartment syndrome is actually quite rare --- its really subcutaneous hypertension with preservation of otherwise normal compartment pressures that you’re most likely to see.  Compartment syndrome should therefore only be diagnosed by actual compartment measurements and not just the exam.  However, if you are dealing with compartments that can’t be measured, like in the fingers, you’re only choice is to be guided by the exam… Jeff:  Risk factors for compartment syndrome in the setting of a snake bite include envenomations in small children, involvement of digits, application of ice or cold packs, and delayed or inadequate antivenom administration. Nachi: In terms of respiratory effects of envenomations – they aren’t common.  Both bites to the head or neck and neurotoxin containing venom are potential causes. In the setting of respiratory failure, be prepared with advanced airway maneuvers like nasotracheal intubation or cricothyroidotomy. Antivenom will not reverse respiratory failure. Jeff: Neurologic effects may be present upon arrival but may also be delayed up to 12 hours in the case of eastern coral snake bites. Nachi: It’s noteworthy that in one study of almost 400 eastern coral snake exposures, the onset of systemic symptoms occurred on average 5.6 hours after the bite.  So definitely remember that repeat exams and observation will be tremendously important. Jeff:  The actual neurologic symptoms to look for depend on the snake.  Coral snake venom can produce a descending flaccid paralysis characterized by motor weakness, especially of the cranial nerves.  Similarly pit vipers, especially the Mojave rattlesnake, have also been associated with muscular weakness of the cranial nerves and even respiratory insufficiency. Nachi:  Pit viper envenomation can also lead to myokymia which is repetitive small muscle fasciculations.  Unfortunately, this myokymia may not respond to antivenom administration and myokymia of the chest well and torso can necessitate intubation in extreme cases.  Both myokymia and myonecrosis may lead to rhabdo in the case of significant envenomations. Jeff:  Pit viper envenomation can also cause hematologic effects.  Fibrinolysis and platelet consumption at the bit site can lead to decreased fibrinogen and thrombocytopenia.  In severe cases this can lead to systemic bleeding and even hemorrhagic shock.  Those on anticoagulants and anti-platelet agents are at increased risk. Nachi:  Dermal effects such as edema, ecchymosis, bullae, and bleeding are not uncommon, but up to 50% of coral snake bite victims may have none of these. Jeff:  And to round out this section – just be aware that rare effects such as osteonecrosis, ischemic stroke, massive PE, and septic shock have all been reported. Nachi: Let’s move on to diagnostic studies.  Most patients require a CBC, coags, and a fibrinogen concentration.  Those with systemic toxicity should also have their electroyltes, CPK, creatinine, glucose, and urine tested. Jeff:  And while the data is somewhat mixed, one study suggests that all patients with pit viper envenomations need their coags checked, not just those with severe symptoms as in one series nearly 90% of patients had missed coagulation abnormalities.  The clinical consequences of this aren’t clearly explained, so the authors don’t make a specific recommendation. Nachi:  In terms of imaging, a chest x-ray should be obtained in those with respiratory symptoms and ultrasound may even have an expanding role here for tracking edema, looking for fluid collections, and assessing deep muscle compartments and vascular flow. Jeff: I feel like we should get some entry music for every ultrasound reference because it seems to make its way into just about every episode. Nachi: What would it sound like? You bring this up every month. I’ll look into something for a future episode. If any of our listeners have a suggestion, shoot us an e-mail at emplify@ebmedicine.net. In terms of monitoring and observation, this is important, ALL patients with suspected pit viper envenomations should be observed for 8-12 hours with the leading edge marked every 15-30 minutes. Jeff:  In addition, serial diagnostic testing may also be needed as such changes will be used to guide treatment.  In those with systemic symptoms, lab testing will be required every 4-6 hours prior to discharge. Nachi:  Before we move onto treatment – let me quickly mention grading.  There is no universal grading system.  The snakebite severity score, the minimum-moderate-severe score, and grade 1-4 score which consider symptoms, exam findings, and lab abnormalities have all been studied.  None have been validated and none track changes, so the authors recommend relying on severity of symptoms and progression of symptoms to guide treatment. Jeff:  The crux of treatment for pit viper envenomations is with supportive care and anti-venom. Nachi:  FabAV or CroFab is the antivenom of choice for pit viper envenomations.  This antivenom is made from extracting the Fab portion of anti-venom antibodies from envenomated sheep and processing them with papain. Jeff:  Since the sheep are injected with venom from the western diamondback, eastern diamondback and Mojave rattlesnake as well as the cottonmouth, the FabAV is most effective against venom from these snakes, however it does have cross reactivity to other immunologically similar venoms. Nachi:  Indications for FabAV include a more than minimal local swelling, rapid progression of swelling, swelling crossing a major joint, evidence of hemotoxicity, signs of systemic toxicity including hemodynamic compromise, neuromuscular toxicity, and late or recurrent new-onset coagulopathy. Jeff:  Initially, dose FabAV as a bolus of 4-6 vials, IV.  With life threatening envenomations or those with cardiovascular collapse, double the starting dose to 8-12 vials.  The goal is arresting progression, improvement in coagulation abnormalities, and resolution of systemic symptoms. Nachi: Although FabAV will reduce the duration and severity of symptoms and lab abnormalities, it will not reverse tissue necrosis and may not reverse neurologic effects. Jeff:  Once the symptoms have been controlled after the bolus dose or a second bolus dose, maintenance dosing of 2 vials every 6 hours for 3 doses is recommended to prevent recurrence. Nachi:  So to reiterate.  4-6 vial bolus to start, doubled in severe cases and then 2 vials every 6 hours for 18 hours after that. Jeff:  You got it. Nachi:  And like most, maybe all medicines, there are side effects and contraindications to be aware of.  Hypersensitivity reactions and serum sickness to FabAV have been reported as 8% and 13% respectively.   Most are mild and can be treated with your standard bundle of steroids, antihistamines, fluids and epi. Jeff:  Risk factors for developing allergic reactions to FabAV include  a known allergy to papaya, papain, chymopapin, pineapple enzyme bromelain, and previous allergic reaction to FabAV. Nachi:  Although FabAV isn’t produced using copperhead venom, it may be effective in severe envenomations and in one study, FabAV reduced limb disability compared to placebo. Jeff:  Therefore, the authors very reasonably advise that you should use the patient’s clinical picture and individual factors rather than the snake species to guide your treatment. Nachi:  Interestingly, compartment syndrome should be treated with the initial 4-6 vial dose of antivenom and not necessarily a fasciotomy.  Fasciotomies have not been shown to improve outcomes and are reserved only for those failing anti-venom treatment. Jeff:  The reason for this is that antivenom may reduce tissue pressures obviating the need for fasciotomy.  In addition, fasciotomy wouldn’t affect muscle necrosis that is occurring so fascia removal really doesn’t solve anything. Nachi:  And just as anti-venom can be used to treat elevated compartment pressures, it can also be used to treat coagulopathy. Jeff:  Blood products should be used for those who are actively bleeding or severely anemic as venom does not discriminate and will destroy whatever blood it comes across. Nachi:  Recurrent and late onset coagulopathy after FabAV treatment has also been well described.   Although not exactly clear why, some speculate that it occurs for one of 4 reasons. 1) because the half life of FabAV is shorter than that of the venom, or 2) because the venom is initially stored in the soft tissues and then slowly released over time or 3) because the venom has a late onset component, or lastly, 4) there is delayed dissociation of the venom-antivenom complexes.  Regardless of the mechanism, late onset coagulopathy can be treated with FabAV. Jeff:  Luckily, bleeding associated with coagulopathy and bleeding associated with late onset coagulopathy are both extremely rare.   Nachi:  Moving on to coral snakes.  Coral snake bites should be treated with NACSA or North American Coral Snake anti-venom.  This antivenom halts or at least limits the progression of muscle paralysis and shortens the clinical course. Jeff:  Most experts recommend NACSA treatment with the first signs of systemic toxicity and not for all comers.  This recommendation is backed by the literature as in one observational study those treated with prophylactic NACSA did less favorably as compared to those who got it only after symptoms onset.  This is probably because NACSA doesn’t reverse neuromuscular weakness and only limits progression. Nachi:  And it’s not like you are just sitting by and watching while doing nothing – focus your initial treatment on wound care, pain control, and then observation for the development of systemic symptoms.  The exact length of observation will depend on the snake, but should be somewhere between 8 and 24h. Jeff:  As for dosing – the initial NACSA dose is 3-5 vials IV for both peds and adults with a repeat dose if the initial symptoms don’t improve. Nachi: Side effects and adverse reactions occur somewhere between 8-11% of the time with dermal reactions being most common and anaphylaxis being the most severe. Jeff: There is also one last anti-venom to be aware of – Coralmyn, for coral snake envenomations.  Coralmyn is a polyclonal antivenom F(ab’)2 coral snake antivenom, developed because the current lot of NACSA has technically expired although the date has been extended numerous times.  It’s currently in a phase 3 trial, so keep your eyes out. Nachi:  Other non-antivenom treatments that have been tested include acetylcholinesterase inhibitors and trypsin at the bite site – both should be considered experimental at this point. Jeff:  To wrap up the treatment section, let’s talk exotic snakes.  You may recall from the intro that these have a higher morbidity and mortality compared to native species. Nachi:  You will have to rely on your local poison control center or toxicologist for advice and you may even need to turn to the zoo or aquarium for antivenom, if it exists at all.  Patients with bites from exotic snakes should be monitored, likely in the ICU, for up to 24 hours as toxicity from some venom may have a delayed onset of up to 20 hours. Jeff:  Scary stuff, hopefully the patient knows which type of exotic snake they own and you don’t have to sort through a million google images to try to get to the bottom of this.  Anyway, there are 3 special populations to discuss.  First are pregnant patients. Nachi:  The authors cite a 1.4% incidence of snake bites in pregnant patients.  They note that this is low, but from my perspective, this seems shockingly high – why would a pregnant person ever get anywhere near a snake, seems just ill advised… Jeff:  haha, true.   But regardless, treatment is the same with antivenom as needed for all the same indications.  With fetal demise rates as high as 30%, in addition to maternal monitoring, the fetus should also be monitored. Nachi:  That number may seem high, but keep in mind that that’s from studies in other countries with more venomous snakes, so it’s likely to be lower in the US.  But the point remains, that antivenom is generally recommended to be given if the mother has indications for treatment, as poor fetal outcome is tied directly to the severity of envenomation in the mother. Jeff: Continuing right along, the next special population to discuss are pediatric patients.  Because dosing is based on the amount of venom delivered and not on patient specific factors, dosing is the same for peds and adults. Nachi:  How rare – so few meds seem to be the same for peds and adults.  The last population to discuss are anticoagulated patients.  Patients on antiplatelet or anti-coagulants are at increased risk of bleeding after pit viper envenomations and therefore should have their coags checked every 2 days following the last dose of FabAV. Jeff:  I think we’ve at least mentioned most of this months controversies, but it’s probably worth quickly reviewing them since they mostly dispel common myths. Nachi:  Good idea.  Incision and suction of snake bites is nearly universally not recommended. Jeff:  In the absence of ischemia, fasciotomy for snake bites is not recommended, even with elevated compartment pressures.  Instead treat compartment syndrome with anti-venom and save the fasciotomy for true cases of ischemia refractory to antivenom. Nachi:  With a known or suspected coral snake envenomation, due to shortages of NACSA, wait until the patient develops symptoms instead of empirically treating all bite victims. Jeff:  Maintenance dosing of FabAV continues to be debated.  The manufacturer recommends 2 doses every 6 hours for 3 doses while some experts recommend only maintenance dosing as needed.  It’s therefore probably safest to punt this to whatever poison control center or toxicologist you speak with. Nachi:  I feel like we are plugging the poison center a lot, but it’s such a good free, and usually very nice consult to have on your team. Jeff: Nice consultant – what a win!  Moving on to the cutting edge.  There is a new Crotalidae antivenom called Crotalidae Immune F(ab’)2 or, more simply, Anavip.  It should be available in the next few months.  The dosing will be 10 vials up front over 60 minutes followed by an additional 10 vials if the symptoms having been controlled.  4 more vials may be given for symptom recurrence.  Patients must be observed for a minimum of 18 hours after initial control of symptoms. Nachi: This would be a really nice development as Anavip has a longer half life and therefore should reduce the rates of late coagulopathy and decrease the need for maintenance dosing, follow up, and repeating coags. Jeff:  And finally, like we mentioned before, injection of the trypsin has been tried as a bridge to antivenom, as has carbon monoxide, which may mediate degradation of fibrinogen dependent coagulation. Nachi:  Alright, so let’s talk about the disposition next. Victims of pit viper envenomations should be monitored for 8-12 hours from the time of the bite.  They will need baseline labs and repeat testing ever 4-6 hours.  IF there is no progression of the symptoms and repeat testing is normal, the patient can be discharged. Jeff: Victims of coral snake bites should be admitted and observed for 12-24 hours regardless of symptoms. Nachi: Victims of rattle snake envenomations who initially develop hematologic abnormalities and are treated with FabAV should have repeat testing done in 2-4 days and 5-7 days. Jeff:  Wounds should also be closely followed to avoid complications and long term disfigurement and disability.  PT/OT may be necessary as well. Nachi:  Perfect, let’s round this episodes out with a review of the key points and clinical pearls from this month’s issue. There are about 10,000 ED visits in the US for snake bites each year, and 1/3 of these involve venomous species. Pit vipers produce a predominantly hemotoxic venom. Both local and systemic effects can occur. Systemic effects include tachycardia, tachypnea, hypotension, nausea, vomiting, weakness, and diaphoresis. In general, venomous snakes have a triangular or spade-like head, elliptical pupils, and hollow retractable fangs. In contrast, non-venomous snakes have a rounded head, round pupils, lack fangs, and can have a double row of vertical scales on the tail. Venomous North American coral snakes often have adjacent red and yellow bands, whereas their nonvenomous counterparts usually have a characteristic black band between the red and yellow bands. For prehospital care in the US, the following strategies are not recommended: incision or excision, use of venom extraction devices, tourniquets, chill methods, and electroshock therapy -- and they can all actually worsen outcomes.  Prehospital providers should focus on rapid transport. Be cognizant of compartment syndrome, but measure compartments when possible, as some envenomations present similarly but have only subcutaneous hypertension. Neurologic effects can be delayed up to 12 hours after coral snake envenomations. Symptoms can include a descending paralysis. For diagnostic testing, consider a CBC, coags, fibrinogen level, electrolytes, cpk, creatine, glucose, and urine studies.  All patients with envenomation should be observed for at least 8 hours. Mark the site of envenomation circumferentially to monitor for changes. Management of patients with snake bites should be treated with supportive care, pain control, and specific antivenom when indicated. FabAV or CroFab is the antivenom of choice for pit viper envenomations. Although FabAV will reduce the duration and severity of symptoms and lab abnormalities, it will not reverse tissue necrosis and may not reverse neurologic effects. Be aware of the possibility for a hypersensitivity reaction or serum sickness to FabAV. Treat with steroids, antihistamine, IV fluids, and epinephrine as appropriate. Coral snake envenomations can be treated with NACSA, which halts or at least limits the progression of muscle paralysis and shortens the clinical course.  Side effects to NACSA include dermal reaction as the most common -- and anaphylaxis as the most severe. Patients with bites from exotic snakes should be monitored, likely in the ICU, for up to 24 hours as toxicity from some venom may have a delayed onset of up to 20 hours. You may have to turn to your local zoo for help with anti-venoms here. Management of pregnant patient\s is the same as nonpregnant patients with regards to snake envenomations. Dosing of antivenom is based on the amount of venom. Dosing is the same regardless of the age of the patient. All patients requiring antivenom or with suspected envenomation should be admitted.  Seek consultation with your regional poison center and local toxicologist Jeff: So that wraps up the September 2018 episode of Emplify. Nachi: As always - the address for this month’s credit is ebmedicine.net/E0918, so head over there right away to get your credit.  Remember that the  you heard throughout the episode corresponds to the answers to the CME questions. Jeff: And don’t forget to grab your free issue of Synthetic Drug Intoxication in Children at ebmedicine.net/drugs specifically for emplify listeners. Feel free to share the link with your colleagues or through social media too. Next month we are talking sepsis and the ever frequently changing guidelines so it’s not something you want to miss.  Talk to you soon   Most Important References 4. *Lavonas EJ, Ruha AM, Banner W, et al. Unified treatment algorithm for the management of crotaline snakebite in the United States: results of an evidence-informed consensus workshop. BMC Emerg Med. 2011;11:2-227X-11-2. (Consensus panel) 6. *Bush SP, Ruha AM, Seifert SA, et al. Comparison of F(ab’)2 versus Fab antivenom for pit viper envenomation: a prospec­tive, blinded, multicenter, randomized clinical trial. Clin Toxicol (Phila). 2015;53(1):37-45. (Randomized controlled trial; 121 patients) 7. *Gerardo CJ, Vissoci JR, Brown MW, et al. Coagulation parameters in copperhead compared to other Crotalinae envenomation: secondary analysis of the F(ab’)2 versus Fab antivenom trial. Clin Toxicol (Phila). 2017;55(2):109-114. (Ran­domized controlled trial; 121 patients) 8. *American College of Medical Toxicology, American Acad­emy of Clinical Toxicology, American Association of Poison Control Centers, European Association of Poison Control Centres and Clinical Toxicologists, International Society on Toxinology, Asia Pacific Association of Medical Toxicology. Pressure immobilization after North American Crotalinae snake envenomation. Clin Toxicol (Phila). 2011;49(10):881-882. (Position statement) 10. *Wood A, Schauben J, Thundiyil J, et al. Review of eastern coral snake (Micrurus fulvius fulvius) exposures managed by the Florida Poison Information Center Network: 1998-2010. Clin Toxicol (Phila). 2013;51(8):783-788. (Retrospective; 387 patients) 48. *Cumpston KL. Is there a role for fasciotomy in Crotalinae envenomations in North America? Clin Toxicol (Phila). 2011;49(5):351-365. (Review) 75. *Walker JP, Morrison RL. Current management of copper­head snakebite. J Am Coll Surg. 2011;212(4):470-474. (Retro­spective; 142 patients) 81. *Kitchens C, Eskin T. Fatality in a case of envenomation by Crotalus adamanteus initially successfully treated with polyvalent ovine antivenom followed by recurrence of defibrinogenation syndrome. J Med Toxicol. 2008;4(3):180-183. (Case report) 118. *Hwang CW, Flach FE. Recurrent coagulopathy after rattle­snake bite requiring continuous intravenous dosing of anti­venom. Case Rep Emerg Med. 2015;2015:719302. (Case report)

This week, the Grue-Crew check out some artificial intelligence, head into the forest to search for a missing person, and follow Father Riley to an Irish home for 'fallen women'. Yup, we're doomed. First up is the anthology feature A.I. Tales from directors Nelson Lee, Kristen Hilkert, Amir Reichart, and Vitaly Verlov. The second film, Calibre from director Matt Palmer, features a pair of terrific performances from Jack Lowden and Martin McCann. Rounding out the show is the found footage film The Devil's Doorway from director Aislinn Clarke featuring a suspenseful blend of supernatural and demon possession. The hunt is on for the diamond in the rough. Doc Rotten from Horror News Radio and Jeff Mohr from Decades of Horror: The Classic Era are joined by Rafe Telsch and Vanessa Thompson.  Gruesome Magazine Podcast - Episode 028 The Devil's Doorway - Calibre - A.I. Tales SHUDDER MOVIE RECOMMENDATION Use my promo code - GRUESOME - for an extended 30-day FREE trial of Shudder to check out Downrange and Still/Born! Enter the promo code at http://gruesomemagazine.com/shudder to get your first month free. A.I. Tales Titles include SEED by Nelson Lee, IN/FINITE by Kristen Hilkert, PHOENIX 9 by Amir Reichart and REDUX by Vitaly Verlov. Hewes Pictures is excited to announce the theatrical and digital release of A.I Tales on July 13. The theatrical season kicks off at the Black Box Theater in Los Angeles, July 13-19th. The VOD will be available via Amazon day-and-date. "See this anthology! … I really enjoyed this. All of them are very strong! They all have great writing, great direction, great acting. All the characters are believable. All the situations they’re put in are believable." - Vanessa "I really enjoyed this gathering together of four short-form films and I don’t think there’s a weak one in the bunch. … I think they are all quite fantastic! " - Rafe "I thought they were all very well done in almost all aspects. … I think the phrase of the day is going to be ‘thought provoking.’" - Jeff Director: Nelson Lee, Kristen Hikert, Amir Reichart, and Vitaly Verlov. Cast: Pom Klementieff ("Guardians of the Galaxy", "Avengers"), Eric Roberts ("The Dark Knight"), Neil Jackson ("Westworld") Calibre (Netflix) Two lifelong friends head up to an isolated Scottish Highlands village for a weekend hunting trip. Nothing could prepare them for what follows. Calibre is currently playing on Netflix (US) beginning June 29, 2018.   "(Calibre) is suspense at its finest." - Rafe "(Calibre has) a lot of tension, a lot of skin-crawling scenes, and excellent acting, a very well thought out, well-made film. You should check it out!" - Jeff "Your knuckles are white, wondering what is going to happen and what does happen is, I think, equally horrific. I was really caught up in this!" - Doc Director: Matt Palmer Cast: Jack Lowden, Martin McCann, Tony Curran   The Devil's Doorway (IFC) In the fall of 1960, Father Thomas Riley and Father John Thornton were sent by the Vatican to investigate a miraculous event in an Irish home for 'fallen women', only to uncover something much more horrific. THE DEVIL'S DOORWAY opens in select theaters and on all VOD platforms  Friday, July 13, 2018, from IFC Midnight.   "I should expect that IFC Midnight is always going to put out quality work and they really did this time. … I’ve never seen a found footage film that I have enjoyed the way I enjoyed this one." - Vanessa "I had some serious jumpscares, and they weren’t the cat-jumps-out kind of jumpscares, they were scared-the-crap-out-of-me jumpscares and some really good hair-raising kinds of things." - Jeff "What’s really impressive about it is the character and the attention to the characters which I think is part of the (direction). It’s handled much differently than other found footage films." - Doc Director: Aislinn Clarke Cast: Lalor Roddy, Ciaran Flynn, Helena Bereen

Take Full Advantage of Transition Services: Enhancing Opportunities for Success - Meet Kylee Jungbauer (Transcript Provided) Kylee Jungbauer is a rehabilitation counselor at state services for the blind. Her concentration is transition age students. We talked to Kylie about what services they provide for students.  Transitioning from high school to college and to the workplace. State services for the blind has a Transition Unit that facilitates a path for students, providing guidance and opportunities for success. From assessments to training, the transition Team offers as much or as little help as needed while promoting self advocacy and independence along the way. Kylee talks about the importance of Summer Programs and how the Transition Team provides opportunities with employment, career exploration and access to training on the tools that will help bring about a successful transition.   Full Transcript Below   Check out below for a list of Summer opportunities and programs.   Check out your State Services by searching the Services Directory on the AFB.org web site.   State Services for the Blind of Minnesota We offer tools and training for employment and for helping seniors remain independent and active. As Minnesota’s accessible reading source we also transcribe books and other materials into alternative formats, including audio and braille. We assist Minnesotans who are blind, DeafBlind, losing vision, or who have another disability that makes it difficult to read print. I hope you find what you need here. We've also created a Tips for Using Our New Website page. If you’d like to apply for services, learn more, or have more questions, just give us a call. You’ll find contact information for all of our offices on our contact page, or you can call our main office at 651-539-2300.   2018 Summer Opportunities for Teens Learning skills related to blindness, low vision, and DeafBlindness The programs listed below are of varying lengths during the summer. They offer training in independent living and job readiness skills. The program descriptions that follow are taken from each organization’s website. If you’d like to pursue any of these opportunities, please speak with your SSB counselor:   BLIND Incorporated  (Blindness: Learning in New Dimensions) offers an 8-week Post-secondary, Readiness, Empowerment Program (PREP) designed to prepare students for academic, employment, and social success.  The PREP curriculum is designed to empower blind youth with the alternative techniques of blindness they will need to be successful in the college and the career fields they choose, and to give them the confidence and belief in themselves they need to find and keep a job. Additionally there are three one-week summer programs focusing on independent living, post-secondary success, and navigating the world of work.      Career Ventures, Inc . offers resources in: Job Seeking Skills training, Volunteer opportunities, Paid-work experiences, Job Shadows, Internships (on a case by case basis), Job Placement, and Job Coaching. Contact Wendy DeVore at wdevore@careerventuresinc.com for more information.   Courage Kenny SHARE Program  is a resource that provides people of all ages and abilities the opportunity to achieve physical and emotional fitness - and just have some fun. SHARE is a service of Courage Kenny Rehabilitation Institute, part of Allina Health, but our list of services includes those offered by other organizations. It's a one-stop shop for activity listings and registration details in Minnesota and western Wisconsin.    Duluth Center for Vision Loss  offers summer camps designed to sharpen skills needed for success, including Workforce Readiness, College Readiness, Self-advocacy, Mobility, Technology, Independent living, and much more. Students will learn core workforce readiness and adjustment to blindness skills.  They will also be given the opportunity to socialize with peers from across the state and to participate in a wide array of recreational activities. The Lighthouse Transition Program is built on the understanding that “now is the time” that youth need to be developing certain core skills that are essential for their future    Helen Keller National Center  offers programs to students who are DeafBlind which enable each person who is deaf-blind to live and work in his or her community of choice. HKNC offers individualized evaluation and training which will assist students in achieving their own definition of success. The emphasis for the student in the program is to participate in learning opportunities which will lead to successful employment and a full, enriched and independent life in the community. The philosophy of the Center is one of self-determination for all.   Minnesota State Academy for the Blind  (MSAB) offers Summer School programming for elementary, Middle school and high school age students.  Elementary School programs focus on elementary level academics as well as individual goals identified in student IEP’s. Middle and High school students will participate in activities encompassing the three areas of transition (postsecondary, employment, and independent living).  National Federation of the Blind offers of variety of local and national opportunities. The NFB BELL Academy is designed to provide intensive Braille instruction to blind and low-vision children during the summer months. EQ is a week-long learning opportunity that gets blind students excited about STEM by offering hands-on learning experiences. Visit www.nfb.org and www.nfbmn.org for more information.    Stone Arch Employment Solutions, Inc. Email Cori Giles at cori.giles@comcast.net for information.   Summer Transition Program (STP) provides experiences to address the specific transition needs of students who are Blind, Visually impaired or DeafBlind. STP complements each student’s core curriculum at their local school by providing individualized opportunities in the three transition areas identified in their Individualized Education Program (IEP). These unique transition activities, as part of the Expanded Core Curriculum, give each student the opportunity to increase independence in their school, home, community and work environments. Dates for 2018 are June 13-25.  Email Julie Kochevar at julie.kochevar@ahschools.us for information.   Thank you for listening. You can follow us on Twitter @BlindAbilities On the web at www.BlindAbilities.com Send us an email Get the Free Blind Abilities App on the App Store.   Transcript   Take Full Advantage of Transition Services: Enhancing Opportunities for Success - Meet Kylee Jungbauer (Transcript Provided) Kylee: State Services for the Blind can be included in on that plan but then we will also have an employment plan for the students as well. Jeff: Kylee Jungbauer, Rehabilitation Counselor for Transition Age Students. Kylee: We like to keep our students busy during the summer, that's what I tell all of my students so yep, if you're working with us we expect that you're working your plan and obtain that job goal. Jeff: Voices from the success stories of transition age students. Student 1: State Services for the Blind played a role in helping me figure out, for one thing what I wanted to do after high school, and then where I wanted to go to college, and then also they assisted me with helping me find a job. Student 2: Training in stuff relating to technology and all your use of computers and phones, what's the best way that works for you. Student 3: So I was very lucky to have an IEP team that was familiar with working with a blind student. Jeff: Learn about the transition unit at State Services for the Blind. Kylee: I think another way a parent can be involved is just to have that expectation of their student that they will work, and have that expectation that okay yes, they need to learn how to cook, how to do their own laundry, how to clean because the parents aren't gonna be around forever right. Jeff: Kylee is part of a team at State Services for the Blind in their transition unit. Be sure to contact your State Services and find out what their transition team can do for you, and for more podcasts with the blindness perspective, check us out on the web at www.blindabilities.com, on Twitter at Blind Abilities, and download the free Blind Abilities app from the app store, that's two words, Blind Abilities. Kylee: But I think more importantly, is taking a step back and saying, okay, do you have the skills to actually go to college, do you have you know, the advocacy skills, do you have the technology skills, do you have the technology that you actually need? Jeff: Kylee Jungbauer. Kylee: Yep. Jeff: Is that right? Kylee: Yep, yep. Jeff: Welcome to Blind Abilities, I'm Jeff Thompson. Transitioning from high school to college to the workplace, it's a journey that most of us have taken, or some of us are looking forward to, and we'll be talking to Kylee Jungbauer. She's a transition counselor at State Services for the Blind. Kylee is going to talk about the services that you can receive to enhance your opportunities whether in college or gaining employment in the workplace. She's going to talk about the transition unit at State Services which will help you navigate your transition journey and make available all the resources, training, and skills, and confidence that you'll need for the journey. Kylee welcome to Blind Abilities how are you doing? Kylee: I'm great, how are you? Jeff: I'm doing good thank you. I really appreciate you taking the time to come down to the studios to share with us what you do for clients of State Services for the Blind. Kylee: Yes of course. Jeff: So Kylee, what is the transition unit at State Services for the Blind? Kylee: We work with youth about 14 to all the way up to 24, so college students as well, and we help them move through their transition from high school to either college or high school to just starting off with their first couple of jobs, we look at what their job goal is, or if they don't have a job goal, bringing them to that, with looking at different interest, inventories, or getting different work experiences so they can try different jobs and see what they really like. Jeff: When you say 14 to 24, so 14 you're talking about students who are in high school? Kylee: Correct yep, so when they're in high school we work with in conjunction with their schools and their TBVI's to supplement what they're already getting or maybe give suggestions, expose them to some different technology, and things that maybe they aren't getting in their school. Some schools provide a lot of adjustment to blindness training, and some schools do little, so we like to supplement especially during the summer when they're out of school. Jeff: And why is that? Kylee: Just to get them prepared for life, like I said transitioning out of education, you know high school, a lot of the services are provided for them, they aren't really having to advocate hopefully too hard for those services versus when they're an adult, they're kind of on their own and they have to learn how to do those things and advocate either in college or in their first jobs. Jeff: And what kind of options are there for the summer? Kylee: We have a lot of summer programming that some of it we provide, a lot of it the various vendors provides anywhere from more social to adjustment to blindness training, where, you know learning Braille, learning orientation mobility skills, a lot of Technology in Duluth, since it's so far away they have some online courses where you can work with them remotely I guess from anywhere in within Minnesota, so there's a lot of different options. Jeff: When you were talking about the TVI's teachers for the visually impaired, you're talking about the district teachers? Kylee: I don't know if they're considered district teachers or not but the district's hire them, yeah the schools provide that service. Jeff: And that's where they start their individual educational plan. Kylee: Yep yep, the TBVI's, they're included in it, the students will also have a case manager that kind of runs the whole thing and makes sure that the goals that are written on the education plan are being obtained or maintained or changed as needed, and State Services for the Blind can be included in on that plan but then we will also have an employment plan for the students as well with their job goal, or if there isn't a job goal then we, we just put something generic while we're exploring different careers. Jeff: So they actually have a simultaneous education plan segueing into a employment plan? Kylee: Correct yep, they'll have an education plan and an employment plan at the same time up until graduation of course, and then it will just be an employment plan with State Services for the Blind, and that will bring them through either their first job or college. Jeff: Well that's a good segue. Kylee: Yeah. Jeff: How does State Services or the transition work with the districts or the Department of Education in Minnesota? Kylee: We like to be invited to all of the IEP meetings so please invite us, that doesn't always happen, just because sometimes they get thrown together really last minute and as long as the parent and the student can make it they kind of just go on with it but, it's good for us to be there so we can see what the school is providing and maybe advocate for more, maybe make suggestions, or see where we can supplement in during this school year, you know sometimes students have time on weekends or after school, or especially during the summer time when they're on break. We like to keep our students busy during the summer that's what I tell all of my students, so yep if you're working with us we expect that you're working your plan and obtain that job goal throughout the school year and then especially during the summer when you're on break and you have that extra time, Jeff: Are there internship programs available to transition-age students in the summer? Kylee: Yes definitely we can work with a vendor but we also have our work opportunity navigator, Tou Yang, and he works with a lot of the students that I'm working with to get them internships, paid summer jobs, if they're interested in working during the school year that's great too, or doing Job Shadows so they can check out different jobs. Some students have this career goal, they know they want to do it but they haven't really talked to somebody who's in the work field actually doing that job, and they may find that oh it looks like it's a lot more data entry and paperwork versus client contact and so maybe they don't want to do that, or maybe they want to be a photographer but they don't want to have to figure out their own taxes or anything like that, so they'll look into working for a company versus going out on their own. So different things that they just don't know because they haven't had that experience. Jeff: Experience that will help them formulate their career goals. Kylee: Right exactly, yep so each career goal on our end has to be looked at, explored, and we have to determine if it's feasible, so if we have a student who wants to be a dolphin trainer for instance but doesn't want to leave Minnesota, that's probably not going to be something that SSB will support just because once they graduate you know, they won't be able to find a job here in Minnesota, so yep. Jeff: Maybe moose training or something but not dolphin training. Kylee: Yes. [Whoosh Sound Effect] Jeff: So if someone wants to explore a career, is there a resource here to help them do that? Kylee: Yep work with Tou, and also we've got a couple different websites that we can either send to our students or sit with them and work one-on-one with them to do some exploration that way, and hopefully the student are getting that in their school as well, hopefully. Jeff: So Tou, you say he's the employment navigator, he actually contacts companies, works with companies to know what they want and educate them on what to expect probably, and then brings people in for opportunities? Kylee: Yep, yep he has a background in working and doing job placement for other companies in the past so he has those employer connections which is great as well, but yep he brings students out to look at people out doing the actual job that they may be interested in so they can see the intricacies of it and still interested in that after learning the ins and outs or if maybe it's not for them and they want to explore other options. Jeff: So Kylee, how do parents get involved, do you have contact with parents of transition students? Kylee: Definitely, parents can be as involved as they want to be of course if their student is a minor, they have to be there for any signing of documentation, but after that they can be as involved as they want to be, kind of feel that out with both the student and the parents. Sometimes I just meet with my students one-on-one during the school day or whatever is convenient for them, but sometimes the parents want to be there, sometimes I can send an email to the parents after a meeting just giving them a recap. If I'm sending internship opportunities or things that need to be filled out with the student and maybe the student isn't the most responsive, I'll just CC the parents on the email just to make sure that everybody saw that it needs to be sent back. But I think another way that parents can be involved is just to have that expectation of their student that they will work, and have that expectation that, okay yes they need to learn how to cook, how to do their own laundry, how to clean, because the parents aren't gonna be around forever right, and they also hopefully won't be following their student to college, so if they need those skills just like any other person. But on the flip side of that, we understand that for a college student, or college bound student it is normal for them not to have those skills. I think college bound students kind of figure out how to do their own laundry once they show up and they dye a white shirt red for the first time and then they're like, okay maybe I need to figure this out, so that's totally normal but I think yeah, for parents to have that expectation that their students work and most people I know had to have a summer job so they could pay for their gas, pay for their the clothes that they want, or the new phone, or you know what have you, so yeah just having that expectation that their student will go on in transition just like any other visual person, so yeah. Jeff: You brought up a good point about you know, the parents are probably their first advocate that they have coming along in life, and there's comes a point in that transition process where a student has to start considering taking over that advocacy, advocating for themselves, like when they don't get a book on time that they can't always depend on their TBI or disability services, they get to a point where they start to have take responsibility for laundry like you said, all that stuff. Kylee: Yep yep, we have a whole Student Handbook that we go through and it has expectations of you know all the documentation that we need before semester starts, but I think more importantly is taking a step back and saying, okay do you have the skills to actually go to college, do you have you know the advocacy skills, do you have the technology skills, do you have the technology that you actually need, the knowledge of the different apps, you know to get your books online, right now it's Jesse that's working with all of our students, but getting our transition tech involved and they come in for a tech assessment to see what they have right now and what they'll need with both technology and technology training. So I have a student right now we're getting her tech package in but also we're planning for the training that she'll need in preparation for going off to college because surprisingly, her typing skills aren't that great, so that's something she knows she really needs to work on because all of those papers that she's gonna be writing, she's gonna need those skills, yeah super exciting, skills that you'll need right. [Whoosh Sound Effect] Jeff: I've seen reports where like colleges said that people are coming in and they're not prepared, and I've also seen where people come in but they end up being like a week or two behind because they're just trying to use this new technology that they don't understand yet and you have to be able to hit the ground running when you enter college. Kylee: Right yes, I talk a lot about that you know, college is high school times ten, you know you don't have a whole week to learn about one chapter in a book, and then have a test on it maybe a week later, it's like five chapters in one week, so you have, yeah right exactly, you have to be able to hit the ground running. So making sure that they're connected with the disability services at their college and they know the ins and outs of how they ask for accommodations, if they need extra time with test taking, anything like that, knowing how to get all that stuff before they go into college. I talked to my students about how some teachers are fabulous with accommodations and some just don't want to deal with it, or they haven't really had to deal with it in the past, so having those advocacy skills are huge. Jeff: Yeah I always suggested when I went in, I learned right away that, send in an email to each teacher, each professor, six weeks in advance if you get that opportunity, to start setting up that communications, and get that underway, rather than trying to set something, because everyone's busy that first week. Kylee: Definitely yeah. I know when I went off to college for the first time, I was terrified to talk to any of my professors, but you don't have that you know option when you need accommodations, you just have to go for it, and feel you know, be comfortable, or maybe you don't have to be comfortable with it, but you have to be able to at least do it, so yeah having those skills is huge. Jeff: Yeah and it does get more comfortable, and as long as you do get comfortable with it, it just puts it back, you just move forward from there. Kylee: Right exactly. Jeff: What words of advice for someone who is transitioning from high school to college to the workplace? Kylee: I would say make sure that you have all of your technology training down, your orientation and mobility, make sure that you're comfortable with that. I think a lot of students are comfortable in their school settings, so some that have some vision may not even use their cane, but I think it's important when you're out in public especially when you're learning new locations to have those orientation mobility skills down, because yeah you will need them. Advocacy skills as well because you need to be able to talk to your employer and let them know what you need and feel comfortable with that, yeah it's very important. Jeff: Yeah because most colleges aren't that one building school. Kylee: Exactly yep, and a lot of the students that I work with we offer orientation mobility skills, multiple semesters so they can learn their new path, you know each time. After a student's been on campus for a couple of years they pretty much know the layout but, I have no problem each semester bringing in orientation mobility, you, just right away so they feel comfortable with where they're going. Jeff: Well that's great, Kylee how does someone get in contact with State Services for the Blind for the first time? Kylee: The best way to do it is to contact, if you're in the metro to contact our St. Paul office, and they will get you connected with Meredith Larsen, and Meredith does all of our orientation and intakes, and orientation is provided twice a month at different times, so you can come in, learn about all of our services and decide if this is the right program for you. If so then she'll meet with you one-on-one and do an intake and have you sign an application at that point and that kind of, your signing saying yes I'm dedicated to this program, and then from there you'll start working with a counselor. If your you're in the metro it'll be either me or Ashlyn, and if you're in Greater Minnesota there's different counselors out in those areas that also work with our transition youth. Jeff: That's perfect, well Kylee, once again thank you so much for taking the time out of your day to come down to the studios here and sharing with us, believe me it's been a wealth of information, so thank you very much. Kylee: Yep, thank you. Jeff: It was a real pleasure talking to Kylee and be sure to check out the show notes where you can find out how to contact State Services for the Blind, and you can find the summer programs that are listed, and some job opportunities you could have for helping out at the summer programs, and to contact State Services in your state be sure to check out AFB.org where they have resources where you can find the services offered in your state. This podcast is produced in part by State Services for the Blind, live, learn, work, and play. [Music] And a big thanks goes out to Chi Chow for his beautiful music, and that's LChiChow on Twitter. Thank You Chi Chow. Once again, thanks for listening, we hope you enjoyed, and until next time, bye-bye. [Music] [Multiple voices] When we share what we see through each other's eyes, we can then begin to bridge the Gap between the limited expectations and the realities of Blind Abilities. For more podcast with the blindness perspective, check us out on the web at www.blindabilities.com, on twitter at BlindAbilities, download our app from the app store, Blind Abilities, that's two words, or send us an email at info@blindabilities.com, thanks for listening.

Join Jeff, Greg and Forrest as they talk all about the new Cummins Repower motor options on this episode of the High Sierra 4x4 Podcast!! What’s up everyone, welcome to the High Sierra 4x4 Podcast!! This is the best off road podcast on the internet!! I’m your host Greg Bakken and hanging out with me today is the awe inspiring fullsize guy Jeff Bakken and the micro machine Forrest we are here to share our passion for off roading with you!! Episode 171!! This podcast episode is brought to you by Northridge4x4.com the best online store in the industry for your 4x4 parts HIGHSIERRA4X4 - 10% off and free shipping on orders over $70 to the lower 48. What's up Jeff? What’s up Forrest? What’s up Greg? Announcements: Reader Rides: We want to hear about your rig. Email us or post on the forum details about your rig and we might share it on the show!! Main Topic: Cummins Turbo Powered Jeep!! https://cumminsengines.com/repower Listener Feedback: Send us your questions and comments!!! podcast@highsierra4x4.com Events and Happenings: SEMA!! November 1st - 4th Outro: HIGHSIERRA4X4 - 10% off and free shipping on orders over $70 to the lower 48 podcast@highsierra4x4.com www.highsierra4x4com/podcast Leave us a review on iTunes!! www.facebook.com/highsierra4x4 https://www.instagram.com/hs4x4/ www.highsierra4x4.com YouTube Channel

Episode 121 - On Board Air vs Compressor What’s up everyone, welcome to the High Sierra 4x4 Podcast!! This is the best off road podcast on the internet!! I’m your host Greg Bakken and hanging out with me today is the awe inspiring fullsize guy Jeff Bakken and the mini me Forrest we are here to share our passion for off roading with you!! Episode 121!! This podcast episode is brought to you by Northridge4x4.com the best online store in the industry for your 4x4 parts HIGHSIERRA4X4 - 10% off and free shipping on orders over $70 to the lower 48. What's up Jeff? What’s up Forrest? What’s up Greg? Announcements: Main Topic: On Board Air We all need air!! But when choosing an air system for you rig, what should you choose and why? What are some of the uses for air systems? What do you plan to do with your air system? There are many types. Portable, Tanks, “On board”, Compressors What does it take to run air tools? Listener Feedback: Send us your questions and comments!!! podcast@highsierra4x4.com Thread of the Week Front end is squeaking!!! Events and Happenings: Moonlight Madness poker run Weekend of june 24, 25 and 26 2016 Outro: HIGHSIERRA4X4 - 10% off and free shipping on orders over $70 to the lower 48 podcast@highsierra4x4.com www.highsierra4x4com/podcast www.facebook.com/highsierra4x4 www.highsierra4x4.com

Episode 120 - Four Wheeling Newbie Orientation What’s up everyone, welcome to the High Sierra 4x4 Podcast!! This is the best off road podcast on the internet!! I’m your host Greg Bakken and hanging out with me today is the awe inspiring fullsize guy Jeff Bakken and the mini me Forrest we are here to share our passion for off roading with you!! Episode 120!! This podcast episode is brought to you by Northridge4x4.com the best online store in the industry for your 4x4 parts HIGHSIERRA4X4 - 10% off and free shipping on orders over $70 to the lower 48. What's up Jeff? What’s up Forrest? What’s up Greg? Announcements: Main Topic: Newbie Run What’s point of newbie run? Why are they beneficial? Listener Feedback: Send us your questions and comments!!! podcast@highsierra4x4.com I have taken to listening to you guys on the podcast and it has me and another buddy getting the itch to try some overland stuff this year sometime to. Hey, while I got you, my jk is my daily and I am finding my 2.5 coil lift is not enough for my long rig with the lower break over angle. So I am thinking of going to a 4" kit with my 35's and was wondering if you would recommend a short arm kit or long arm kit. I hear the long arm kits are hell for a daily driver. What do you guys think? Nathan Thread of the Week Front end is squeaking!!! Events and Happenings: Moonlight Madness poker run Weekend of june 24, 25 and 26 2016 Outro: HIGHSIERRA4X4 - 10% off and free shipping on orders over $70 to the lower 48 podcast@highsierra4x4.com www.highsierra4x4com/podcast www.facebook.com/highsierra4x4 www.highsierra4x4.com

Episode 119 - Behind the Scenes of the Silver State Adventure What’s up everyone, welcome to the High Sierra 4x4 Podcast!! This is the best off road podcast on the internet!! I’m your host Greg Bakken and hanging out with me today is the awe inspiring fullsize guy (DO WHAT I SAY NOT WHAT I DO) Jeff Bakken and the mini me Forrest we are here to share our passion for off roading with you!! Episode 119!! This podcast episode is brought to you by Northridge4x4.com the best online store in the industry for your 4x4 parts HIGHSIERRA4X4 - 10% off and free shipping on orders over $70 to the lower 48. What's up Jeff? What’s up Forrest? What’s up Greg? I’ve decided I’m just going to build my dana 44s for now. Announcements: Main Topic: Planning an Adventure Planning a trip What kind of event are you planning? How many people are you anticipating? What’s the purpose of the event? Goals to meet along the way? Listener Feedback: Send us your questions and comments!!! podcast@highsierra4x4.com Great podcast guys!!!!! Best ever!!!! I have a q for forest. Trying to run with all my buddies and their Toyotas built and I can do well but I'm also on a budget. Can I or should I get a lock rite for the rear of my sami and weld the front? I daily mine 100+ miles a day and not to be boastful none I can see on the road cruise at 65 in a 1.3. Any advice is good advice. All my buddies say go toy axles but I want to stick sami. Thank for all you hard work guys!!!!! Rob - Thread of the Week Front end is squeaking!!! Events and Happenings: Moonlight Madness poker run Weekend of june 24, 25 and 26 2016 Outro: HIGHSIERRA4X4 - 10% off and free shipping on orders over $70 to the lower 48 podcast@highsierra4x4.com www.highsierra4x4com/podcast www.facebook.com/highsierra4x4 www.highsierra4x4.com

Episode 118 - Silver State Expedition What’s up everyone, welcome to the High Sierra 4x4 Podcast!! This is the best off road podcast on the internet!! I’m your host Greg Bakken and hanging out with me today is the awe inspiring fullsize guy (DO WHAT I SAY NOT WHAT I DO) Jeff Bakken and the mini me Forrest we are here to share our passion for off roading with you!! Episode 118!! This podcast episode is brought to you by Northridge4x4.com the best online store in the industry for your 4x4 parts HIGHSIERRA4X4 - 10% off and free shipping on orders over $70 to the lower 48. What's up Jeff? What’s up Forrest? What’s up Greg? Announcements: Main Topic: Silver State Expedition Listener Feedback: Send us your questions and comments!!! podcast@highsierra4x4.com Events and Happenings: Moonlight Madness poker run Weekend of june 24, 25 and 26 2016 register early Outro: HIGHSIERRA4X4 - 10% off and free shipping on orders over $70 to the lower 48 podcast@highsierra4x4.com www.highsierra4x4com/podcast www.facebook.com/highsierra4x4 www.highsierra4x4.com

Episode 117 - Rig Problems What’s up everyone, welcome to the High Sierra 4x4 Podcast!! This is the best off road podcast on the internet!! I’m your host Greg Bakken and hanging out with me today is the awe inspiring fullsize guy (DO WHAT I SAY NOT WHAT I DO) Jeff Bakken and the mini me Forrest we are here to share our passion for off roading with you!! Episode 117!! This podcast episode is brought to you by Northridge4x4.com the best online store in the industry for your 4x4 parts HIGHSIERRA4X4 - 10% off and free shipping on orders over $70 to the lower 48. What's up Jeff? What’s up Forrest? What’s up Greg? I’ve decided I’m just going to build my dana 44s for now. Announcements: Main Topic: Jeff’s truck Planning a trip Listener Feedback: Send us your questions and comments!!! podcast@highsierra4x4.com Thread of the Week Front end is squeaking!!! Events and Happenings: Moonlight Madness poker run Weekend of june 24, 25 and 26 2016 Outro: HIGHSIERRA4X4 - 10% off and free shipping on orders over $70 to the lower 48 podcast@highsierra4x4.com www.highsierra4x4com/podcast www.facebook.com/highsierra4x4 www.highsierra4x4.com

Episode 116 - Lockers and Feedback What’s up everyone, welcome to the High Sierra 4x4 Podcast!! This is the best off road podcast on the internet!! I’m your host Greg Bakken and hanging out with me today is the awe inspiring fullsize guy (DON’T PRACTICE WHAT I PREACH) Jeff Bakken and the mini me Forrest we are here to share our passion for off roading with you!! Episode 116!! This podcast episode is brought to you by Northridge4x4.com the best online store in the industry for your 4x4 parts HIGHSIERRA4X4 - 10% off and free shipping on orders over $70 to the lower 48. What's up Jeff? What’s up Forrest? What’s up Greg? Going over the jeep preparing for our silver state expedition adventure. Announcements: Main Topic: http://www.highsierra4x4.com/forum/high-sierra-4x4-podcast/8177-episode-115-lockers-and-questions Listener Feedback: Send us your questions and comments!!! podcast@highsierra4x4.com So I was listening to this week's podcast and you mentioned the poly performance (synergy?) sector shaft brace on your Jeep, and was curious what made you decide to use that? When I was researching that I got mixed reviews basically leading me to the conclusion that it was a stop gap to eventually having hydro assist which was the only true cure to this issue. Thoughts? Just curious Thread of the Week Rubicon Run in June?? Events and Happenings: Moonlight Madness poker run Weekend of june 24, 25 and 26 2016 Outro: HIGHSIERRA4X4 - 10% off and free shipping on orders over $70 to the lower 48 podcast@highsierra4x4.com www.highsierra4x4com/podcast www.facebook.com/highsierra4x4 www.highsierra4x4.com

Episode 115 - Lockers and Questions What’s up everyone, welcome to the High Sierra 4x4 Podcast!! This is the best off road podcast on the internet!! I’m your host Greg Bakken and hanging out with me today is the awe inspiring fullsize guy Jeff Bakken and the mini me Forrest we are here to share our passion for off roading with you!! Episode 115!! This podcast episode is brought to you by Northridge4x4.com the best online store in the industry for your 4x4 parts HIGHSIERRA4X4 - 10% off and free shipping on orders over $70 to the lower 48. What's up Jeff? What’s up Forrest? Pre packing forend of the road What’s up Greg? Going over the jeep preparing for our silver state expedition adventure. Announcements: Main Topic: Lockers The good, the bad and the ugly… Can you add arb lockers and change gearing later? Or does it need to be done at the same time? What’s the benefits of running a locker? Would you get front or rear locker and benefits? Why is a spool so much cheaper? What’s better solid locker, a lunchbox locker or a selectable locker? Should I go air or should I go electric? How important is a locker? Why wouldn’t I want a locker? Listener Feedback: Send us your questions and comments!!! podcast@highsierra4x4.com Is a 2016 SEMA build going to happen? What’s better, coils and shocks or coilovers? Thread of the Week Front end is squeaking!!! Events and Happenings: Moonlight Madness poker run Weekend of june 24, 25 and 26 2016 Outro: HIGHSIERRA4X4 - 10% off and free shipping on orders over $70 to the lower 48 podcast@highsierra4x4.com www.highsierra4x4com/podcast www.facebook.com/highsierra4x4 www.highsierra4x4.com

Episode 114 - Get to Know the Hosts!! What’s up everyone, welcome to the High Sierra 4x4 Podcast!! This is the best off road podcast on the internet!! I’m your host Greg Bakken and hanging out with me today is the awe inspiring fullsize guy Jeff Bakken and the mini me Forrest we are here to share our passion for off roading with you!! Episode 114!! It’s transition time... This podcast episode is brought to you by Northridge4x4.com the best online store in the industry for your 4x4 parts HIGHSIERRA4X4 - 10% off and free shipping on orders over $70 to the lower 48. What's up Jeff? What’s up Forrest? Tow rig tear down What’s up Greg? Fender install, then fender uninstall… Announcements: Main Topic: Get to Know the Hosts Many of our listeners have been around for a while and they want to get to know us. What was your first vehicle? Your first 4x4? When did you first go offroad? What was the first trail you ever went on? When did you know that you couldn’t shake the 4 wheeling habit? Do you prefer day trips or overnighters? What’s your most favorite vehicle you’ve owned and why? Would you rather daily drive your rig or have a daily driver? What’s one of your most favorite off road memories? Worst trail break? Most embarrassing off road moment Listener Feedback: Send us your questions and comments!!! podcast@highsierra4x4.com Hey guys, Just wanted to take a minute and say thanks for being so diligent with the twice a week podcasts. I have a 2015 jku that I'm building/saving to build and it's great to be able to tune in and get educated before dropping that kind of coin. I also wanted to rag on Greg a little bit because it cracks me up how much he says, "and all that fun stuff" and "quote unquote"! I think Jeff and Forest should have a clicker or something to keep track of how many times an episode, and Greg should have to pay a nickel for every one. Not sure what you guys would do with the boat loads of change, but if you can't think of anything I'd be happy to put it towards my build lol. Anyway just wanted check in, I'm a first time emailer. Thanks again, I really enjoy the podcast and the addition of Forrest, keep up the good work! Hope to see you guys at an event sometime! -Jason from Portland 2015 willys jku Thread of the Week Steering Questions Events and Happenings: Moonlight Madness poker run Weekend of june 24, 25 and 26 2016 Outro: HIGHSIERRA4X4 - 10% off and free shipping on orders over $70 to the lower 48 podcast@highsierra4x4.com www.highsierra4x4com/podcast www.facebook.com/highsierra4x4 www.highsierra4x4.com

Episode 113 - Racing on a Budget What’s up everyone, welcome to the High Sierra 4x4 Podcast!! This is the best off road podcast on the internet!! I’m your host Greg Bakken and hanging out with me today is the awe inspiring fullsize guy Jeff Bakken and the mini me Forrest we are here to share our passion for off roading with you!! Episode 113!! This podcast episode is brought to you by Northridge4x4.com the best online store in the industry for your 4x4 parts HIGHSIERRA4X4 - 10% off and free shipping on orders over $70 to the lower 48. What's up Jeff? What’s up Forrest? What’s up Greg? Announcements: Main Topic: Racecar on a budget Want to race in the limited classes of ULTRA4 Racing? Smittybilt Everyman Challenge and 4500-4800 races throughout the season are our limited classes! Here’s a step-by-step guide to help make it happen! 1.Make sure your vehicle meets our tech rules and you have proper safety equipment. There are three classes racing in the EMC which runs on a modified course the day before KOH itself. Classes are Stock (4600), Modified (4500) and Legend (4800). You do not need to pre-qualify for the EMC but your vehicle must meet the tech and safety requirements outlined here: http://ultra4racing.com/racers/rulebook/. See Section 6.3 for Stock, Section 6.4 for Modified, and Section 6.4.11 for Legend. 2. Create a driver profile at www.ultra4racing.com/races and register. You have a couple of options when registering for the race, specifically whether to commit to signing up for an entire Regional Series as well as KOH or not. If you choose to sign up for a Series as well as KOH, you will receive significant savings throughout the year compared to those who enter race by race. See the race entry pages for more information. The race registration process is straight forward, but should you get stuck, we have created these step-by-step registration instructions. If you already registered to race with ULTRA4 before, please use the same login and password. If you have any questions registering, please email Shannon Welch at Shannon@ultra4racing.com 3. Pay for your race The address to send checks to and online payment options are all available once you have registered online and signed up for the event. 4. Sign up for USAC Insurance All drivers and co-drivers MUST have either annual or single use USAC insurance purchased. Pre-purchasing your USAC insurance online saves tons of time on site. Costs are still being determined and will be emailed to already registered drivers once they are known. 5. Be prepared for additional mandatory costs At KOH there will be additional mandatory costs (including USAC insurance mentioned above) including but not limited to: IRC trackers, pit crew bands, tech fee (included in an annual USAC membership, or charged separate if not paying for an annual USAC membership). Payment and pricing for these costs will be emailed to you as they are known. 6. Show up and race! See you soon. Pending you had a 10K budget, how would you build your rig? Greg: Forest: Jeff: Listener Feedback: Send us your questions and comments!!! podcast@highsierra4x4.com Thread of the Week Rubicon and Fordyce Events and Happenings: Moonlight Madness poker run Weekend of june 24, 25 and 26 2016 Outro: HIGHSIERRA4X4 - 10% off and free shipping on orders over $70 to the lower 48 podcast@highsierra4x4.com www.highsierra4x4com/podcast www.facebook.com/highsierra4x4 www.highsierra4x4.com

Episode 112 - MetalCloak Stampede What’s up everyone, welcome to the High Sierra 4x4 Podcast!! This is the best off road podcast on the internet!! I’m your host Greg Bakken and hanging out with me today is the awe inspiring fullsize guy Jeff Bakken and the mini me Forrest we are here to share our passion for off roading with you!! Episode 112!! This podcast episode is brought to you by Northridge4x4.com the best online store in the industry for your 4x4 parts HIGHSIERRA4X4 - 10% off and free shipping on orders over $70 to the lower 48. What's up Jeff? What’s up Forrest? What’s up Greg? Announcements: Main Topic: Metalcloak Stampede Metalcloak Stampede April 8th - 9th Ultra 4 racing What did you guys think of the event? Vender show? Favorite part of the day? Favorite group to watch? Favorite racer? 4400 Stock 4600 Stock mod 4800 Listener Feedback: Send us your questions and comments!!! podcast@highsierra4x4.com Thread of the Week Rubicon and Fordyce Events and Happenings: Moonlight Madness poker run Weekend of june 24, 25 and 26 2016 Outro: HIGHSIERRA4X4 - 10% off and free shipping on orders over $70 to the lower 48 podcast@highsierra4x4.com www.highsierra4x4com/podcast www.facebook.com/highsierra4x4 www.highsierra4x4.com

Episode 111 - Wearable Parts What’s up everyone, welcome to the High Sierra 4x4 Podcast!! This is the best off road podcast on the internet!! I’m your host Greg Bakken and hanging out with me today is the awe inspiring fullsize guy Jeff Bakken and the mini me Forrest we are here to share our passion for off roading with you!! Episode 111!! This podcast episode is brought to you by Northridge4x4.com the best online store in the industry for your 4x4 parts HIGHSIERRA4X4 - 10% off and free shipping on orders over $70 to the lower 48. What's up Jeff? What’s up Forrest? What’s up Greg? Preparation for a the Silver State Expedition Adventure. Prepping the jeep... Announcements: Main Topic: Wearable Parts Jeff and I have always preached maintenance for your rig. Well, what does that mean? What needs maintaining? What are parts that will last a long time, but need attention every once in awhile vs a part that might need maintenance once a year? What do I need to monitor on my rig? Jeff seems to have had some serious issues that he has discovered. Luckily he found them before the where major problems. Budgeting for rebuilds and repairs? Sounds like Jeff needs to upgrade to a HP Dana 70 front or build a custom 14 bolt front. What brand gears is he running that he keeps chipping teeth off of? Listener Feedback: Send us your questions and comments!!! podcast@highsierra4x4.com Hi guys love the show and the addition of Forrest hope everything's going great. I particularly loved the episodes you did on overlanding and off-road trailers. Would love to hear more content on overlanding in general. Have you guys thought about an episode on roof top tents? I'm in the market right now and have been considering the local brands like CVT and Tepui. Any suggestions? Do you guys run a RTT? Thanks again keep up the great work. Nick K. Thread of the Week Rattling sound from my jeep! my 2011 Jeep Wrangler Unlimited started making this rattling sound a few days ago. The sound reminds me of a baseball card on a bike spoke. The first day the sound started in was only when pressing the accelerator and now 2 days later it's only when idling. i haven't got to do much investigating yet to attempt to find out where exactly the sound is coming from but I'm doing that tomorrow morning. I am pretty much clueless when it comes to automotive stuff but I'd really like to change that. Anyone had something similar happen and maybe have some advice? Lisa, Cool, CA Events and Happenings: Moonlight Madness poker run Weekend of june 24, 25 and 26 2016 Outro: HIGHSIERRA4X4 - 10% off and free shipping on orders over $70 to the lower 48 podcast@highsierra4x4.com www.highsierra4x4com/podcast www.facebook.com/highsierra4x4 www.highsierra4x4.com

Episode 110 - Transfer Case Tech What’s up everyone, welcome to the High Sierra 4x4 Podcast!! This is the best off road podcast on the internet!! I’m your host Greg Bakken and hanging out with me today is the awe inspiring fullsize guy Jeff Bakken and the mini me Forrest we are here to share our passion for off roading with you!! Episode 110!! This podcast episode is brought to you by Northridge4x4.com the best online store in the industry for your 4x4 parts HIGHSIERRA4X4 - 10% off and free shipping on orders over $70 to the lower 48. What's up Jeff? What’s up Forrest? What’s up Greg? CB Installed, thanks Jeff. Tuning it? Hate Mail!! Sorry to break your hearts, but this really isn't hate mail - just having some fun and busting your chops. I listen to your podcast on my phone using Stitcher. I really enjoy listening to you guys. I wanted to shoot you an e-mail and add to the automatic transmission conversation. One thing you guys didn't touch on is how the first gear in an automatic really isn't fixed. For example the JK's WA580 (also known as the NAG1) automatic has a 3.59 first gear ratio. However, the effective first gear ratio is actually between 6.46 and 8.97 because of the viscous coupling of the torque converter. The only time the stated gear ratio on an automatic holds true is when the converter is in lock up. There is some good reading in the below link. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torque_converter One last thing. If I remember correctly, I think Jeff kept saying automatics had belts in them. This is not correct, I believe the word Jeff really meant was bands. Old automatics did use bands with friction pads. The new automatics like the WA580 do not use bands. They are hydraulically actuated and use electronically controlled solenoids for their operation. Regards, John Announcements: Main Topic: Transfer Case Well, if you’re into four wheeling at all, at some point, you’ve thought about your transfer case. What does it do? How does it do it? What’s the benefit of upgrading your transfer case? What kind of upgrades should I do? Gearing? What’s a doubler or dual cases? Is there a difference? When should I gear vs dual cases? How about an aftermarket transfer case? What does twin stick mean? Listener Feedback: Send us your questions and comments!!! podcast@highsierra4x4.com Important to note that NV gear is out of business. As the 3500 becomes harder to find used the similarly rated AX15 is still available new. Other than the early jeep and bronco 4 speeds I think you covered the big manuals to be worried about. As to auto's I think the popular Jeep slush-boxes being the AW4, 32RH and 42RLEs deserve mention. AW4 was found in XJ cherokees with the 4.0L engine. Great transmission if you keep it cool. Not as efficient as modern units but it was also used in v8 landcrusers so it somewhat underrated behind the 4.0. Add a transmission cooler and they last 200k miles. Jeepspeed guys thrash these things so there is decent aftermarket support for them. 32RH was a 3 speed unit found in early 4.0L TJs. Durable transmission based on the 1970s 3 speeds that sat behind V8s. Lack of an overdrive hurts dual purpose rigs on the highway. Dead simple hydraulically controlled auto is great for dedicated trail rigs and no computer to worry about. 42RLE was a 4 speed unit found in ZJs, later TJs, and 3.8 JKs. Generally regarded as a "meh" transmission. Odd shifting and so-so reliability. One place manuals have a distinct advantage is deeper snow wheeling. Auto's will build heat at slow speeds where a manual has no slipping to generate heat and no cooler that can get airflow blocked by packed snow. Manuals have a disadvantage in terms of stress on the rest of the drivetrain. An auto will reduce shock loads to the drivetrain as the transmission is an indirect link at low speeds. Autos generally wont notice slop in the drivetrain like a manual will pronounce. Kris

Episode 109 - Auto vs Manual Transmissions What’s up everyone, welcome to the High Sierra 4x4 Podcast!! This is the best off road podcast on the internet!! I’m your host Greg Bakken and hanging out with me today is the awe inspiring fullsize guy Jeff Bakken and the mini me Forrest we are here to share our passion for off roading with you!! Episode 109!! This podcast episode is brought to you by Northridge4x4.com the best online store in the industry for your 4x4 parts HIGHSIERRA4X4 - 10% off and free shipping on orders over $70 to the lower 48. What's up Jeff? What’s up Forrest? What’s up Greg? CB mount and wiring hopefully, Preparing for nevada overland trip. Hydraulic steering. Announcements: March Giveaway Main Topic: Trannies Manual vs Auto Strength Considerations What are some popular trannies to work with? Manual: NP435 SM465 NV4500 NV3500 Automatics: 700r4 Turbo 350 Turbo 400 4lL60 4L80 C6 http://www.4x4review.com/the-top-10-off-road-transmissions-of-all-time/ Listener Feedback: Send us your questions and comments!!! podcast@highsierra4x4.com Thread of the Week Which kind of cable for my winch? Events and Happenings: Metalcloak Stampede April 8th - 9th Outro: HIGHSIERRA4X4 - 10% off and free shipping on orders over $70 to the lower 48 podcast@highsierra4x4.com www.highsierra4x4com/podcast www.facebook.com/highsierra4x4 www.highsierra4x4.com

Episode 108 - How to Build a Fullsize!! What’s up everyone, welcome to the High Sierra 4x4 Podcast!! This is the best off road podcast on the internet!! I’m your host Greg Bakken and hanging out with me today is the awe inspiring fullsize guy Jeff Bakken and the mini me Forrest we are here to share our passion for off roading with you!! Episode 108!! This podcast episode is brought to you by Northridge4x4.com the best online store in the industry for your 4x4 parts HIGHSIERRA4X4 - 10% off and free shipping on orders over $70 to the lower 48. What's up Jeff? What’s up Forrest? What’s up Greg? License plate delete, shopping for the best deal, Headlight upgrade. Announcements: March Giveaway Main Topic: How to Build a FoolSize Extended cab, regular cab, long bed, theres many shapes and sizes. Terrian Mud - Rock Crawling - Weekend warrior - Other considerations when building a fullsize Strength - Weight - V6? Dana 44 have a place on a foolsize? Listener Feedback: Send us your questions and comments!!! podcast@highsierra4x4.com Thread of the Week Which kind of cable for my winch? Events and Happenings: Metalcloak Stampede April 8th - 9th Big hat days clovis april 3rd Outro: HIGHSIERRA4X4 - 10% off and free shipping on orders over $70 to the lower 48 podcast@highsierra4x4.com www.highsierra4x4com/podcast www.facebook.com/highsierra4x4 www.highsierra4x4.com

Episode 107 - The Foolsize Invasion What’s up everyone, welcome to the High Sierra 4x4 Podcast!! This is the best off road podcast on the internet!! I’m your host Greg Bakken and hanging out with me today is the awe inspiring fullsize guy Jeff Bakken and the mini me Forrest we are here to share our passion for off roading with you!! Episode 107!! This podcast episode is brought to you by Northridge4x4.com the best online store in the industry for your 4x4 parts HIGHSIERRA4X4 - 10% off and free shipping on orders over $70 to the lower 48. What's up Jeff? What’s up Forrest? Announcements: March Giveaway Main Topic: The Foolsize Why would anyone want to wheel a foolsize rig? Fullsize invasion What are the advantages of going with a fullsize rig. Size Room Affordability Bigger components Power Uniqueness Disadvantages Weight Width Size Strength in components Listener Feedback: Send us your questions and comments!!! podcast@highsierra4x4.com Thread of the Week Which kind of cable for my winch? Events and Happenings: Metalcloak Stampede April 8th - 9th Outro: HIGHSIERRA4X4 - 10% off and free shipping on orders over $70 to the lower 48 podcast@highsierra4x4.com www.highsierra4x4com/podcast www.facebook.com/highsierra4x4 www.highsierra4x4.com

Episode 106 - JKs Effect on the Off Road World What’s up everyone, welcome to the High Sierra 4x4 Podcast!! This is the best off road podcast on the internet!! I’m your host Greg Bakken and hanging out with me today is the awe inspiring fullsize guy Jeff Bakken and the mini me Forrest we are here to share our passion for off roading with you!! Episode 106!! This podcast episode is brought to you by Northridge4x4.com the best online store in the industry for your 4x4 parts HIGHSIERRA4X4 - 10% off and free shipping on orders over $70 to the lower 48. What's up Jeff? What’s up Forrest? Announcements: March Giveaway Main Topic: how the JK changed the off road world Cost Functionality Capabilities Style Comfort Aftermarket On the trail Fabrication Listener Feedback: Send us your questions and comments!!! podcast@highsierra4x4.com I really enjoy the addition of Forrest to the podcast. Jason Thread of the Week What did you do this weekend Events and Happenings: Metalcloak Stampede April 8th - 9th Outro: HIGHSIERRA4X4 - 10% off and free shipping on orders over $70 to the lower 48 podcast@highsierra4x4.com www.highsierra4x4com/podcast www.facebook.com/highsierra4x4 www.highsierra4x4.com

Episode 105 - The Shady Tree Mechanic Safety What’s up everyone, welcome to the High Sierra 4x4 Podcast!! This is the best off road podcast on the internet!! I’m your host Greg Bakken and hanging out with me today is the awe inspiring fullsize guy Jeff Bakken and the mini me Forrest we are here to share our passion for off roading with you!! Episode 105!! This podcast episode is brought to you by Northridge4x4.com the best online store in the industry for your 4x4 parts HIGHSIERRA4X4 - 10% off and free shipping on orders over $70 to the lower 48. What's up Jeff? What’s up Forrest? Greg: http://www.fusion4x4.com Full float vs Semi Float? http://www.fourwheeler.com/how-to/0112or-semi-floating-and-full-floating-axles/ Announcements: March Giveaway Main Topic: Garage Safety Jeff, What happen to our buddy? We all have our ways of doing different tasks and working around our tool capacity. But what are some major do’s and don'ts of working in the garage? Listener Feedback: Send us your questions and comments!!! podcast@highsierra4x4.com Hello from the grain belt of Saskatchewaun Canada been a listener from the first podcast I have a question being I run a full size full size a k30 long box with lockers cross over steering and 37s and all the rest that goes with it what I would like to know is whether a truck of that size would make it through the rubicon as I'm thinking of loading up my k30 and my wife's samurai and making a holiday of it and also I think a show all on full size trucks would be interesting too hear as I know your brother is in the full size club thanks for a great show and keep it up makes for a interesting listen Thanks Steve Ok, so two things. One, the podcast from the app doesn't automatically roll onto the next episode . Had to switch to a different platform. (listened to all the episodes in less than two weeks) Two, the app should have a notification to phone option, so when someone responds to your post it will send a flash or pop-up to your phone window. Side note... Greg saying granted sounds like he's saying granite... Ocd kicks in. Love listening everyday, well now only twice a week 😂 Nicholas Thread of the Week What did you do this weekend Events and Happenings: Metalcloak Stampede April 8th - 9th Outro: HIGHSIERRA4X4 - 10% off and free shipping on orders over $70 to the lower 48 podcast@highsierra4x4.com www.highsierra4x4com/podcast www.facebook.com/highsierra4x4 www.highsierra4x4.com

Episode 104 - Easter Jeep Safari What’s up everyone, welcome to the High Sierra 4x4 Podcast!! This is the best off road podcast on the internet!! I’m your host Greg Bakken and hanging out with me today is the awe inspiring fullsize guy Jeff Bakken and the mini me Forrest we are here to share our passion for off roading with you!! Episode 104!! This podcast episode is brought to you by Northridge4x4.com the best online store in the industry for your 4x4 parts HIGHSIERRA4X4 - 10% off and free shipping on orders over $70 to the lower 48. What's up Jeff? What’s up Forrest? Greg - Sick as a dog...Sold some my wheels today. Announcements: March Giveaway Main Topic: EJS http://www.rr4w.com/event-details.cfm?eventid=8 Rex Listener Feedback: Send us your questions and comments!!! podcast@highsierra4x4.com As a 2012 JKU (sahara) owner who has investigated the RubiCrawler adapter, this unfortunately only fits the 2007-2011 JK's and not the newer 2012+ with the 3.6 engine as the tail of the automatic transmission is longer and not enough room for it to fit. From Dusty at Advance Adapters: We do not offer a Rubicrawler for 2012 and newer due to changes Jeep made in the running gear. We do offer Atlas transfer case for newer models to help lower your crawl ratio. Thanks, Dusty" I ended up getting a rubicon transfer case off ebay which I'll be swapping out the 2.72 t-case for a better rock crawling set up. I'm currently on stock D30/D44 set up (trussed and gussetted) and 35's but the near term plan is the the Ultimate D60's and 40's Was hoping I could have used the RubiCrawler rather than swapping out t-cases for either a rubicon or an Atlas, but nope. Just thought you should know and pass along. Thanks Scott Scottsdale, AZ Thread of the Week What did you do this weekend Events and Happenings: Metalcloak Stampede April 8th - 9th Outro: HIGHSIERRA4X4 - 10% off and free shipping on orders over $70 to the lower 48 podcast@highsierra4x4.com www.highsierra4x4com/podcast www.facebook.com/highsierra4x4 www.highsierra4x4.com

Episode 103 - How to Pick N Pull What’s up everyone, welcome to the High Sierra 4x4 Podcast!! This is the best off road podcast on the internet!! I’m your host Greg Bakken and hanging out with me today is the awe inspiring fullsize guy Jeff Bakken and the mini me Forrest we are here to share our passion for off roading with you!! Episode 103!! This podcast episode is brought to you by Northridge4x4.com the best online store in the industry for your 4x4 parts HIGHSIERRA4X4 - 10% off and free shipping on orders over $70 to the lower 48. What's up Jeff? What’s up Forrest? Announcements: March Giveaway Main Topic: Picking N Pull What to expect? Different type of pick n pulls Is negotiation an option? Are they worth visiting? Do’s and Don’ts Listener Feedback: Send us your questions and comments!!! podcast@highsierra4x4.com Thread of the Week What did you do this weekend Events and Happenings: Metalcloak Stampede April 8th - 9th Outro: HIGHSIERRA4X4 - 10% off and free shipping on orders over $70 to the lower 48 podcast@highsierra4x4.com www.highsierra4x4com/podcast www.facebook.com/highsierra4x4 www.highsierra4x4.com

What’s up everyone, welcome to the High Sierra 4x4 Podcast!! This is the best off road podcast on the internet!! I’m your host Greg Bakken and hanging out with me today is the awe inspiring fullsize guy Jeff Bakken and the mini me Forrest we are here to share our passion for off roading with you!! Episode 102!!! This podcast episode is brought to you by Northridge4x4.com the best online store in the industry for your 4x4 parts HIGHSIERRA4X4 - 10% off and free shipping on orders over $70 to the lower 48. What's up Jeff? What’s up Forrest? Announcements: March Giveaway Main Topic: Trail Composure There are lots of situations that you can find yourself in out on the trail. weather it be you going out with a couple buddies or meeting a large group for an event. There are considerations to be taken for each situation. Is it a family friendly event is it a party situation keep in mind other people's situations as well check your ego at the door Listener Feedback: Send us your questions and comments!!! podcast@highsierra4x4.com Suggested Thread of the Week! Adjusting your track bar? Events and Happenings: Meet and greet Outro: Leave comments on itunes help get the show up in the ratings to share the knowledge HIGHSIERRA4X4 - 10% off and free shipping on orders over $70 to the lower 48 podcast@highsierra4x4.com www.highsierra4x4com/podcast www.facebook.com/highsierra4x4 www.highsierra4x4.com

Episode 101 - Buying a Used Vehicle 101 What’s up everyone, welcome to the High Sierra 4x4 Podcast!! This is the best off road podcast on the internet!! I’m your host Greg Bakken and hanging out with me today is the awe inspiring fullsize guy Jeff Bakken and the mini me Forrest we are here to share our passion for off roading with you!! Episode 101!! This podcast episode is brought to you by Northridge4x4.com the best online store in the industry for your 4x4 parts HIGHSIERRA4X4 - 10% off and free shipping on orders over $70 to the lower 48. What's up Jeff? What’s up Forrest? Announcements: March Giveaway Main Topic: Used Vehicle Buying 101 There are tons of awesome deals to have in the used car market when looking for your next rig to build. It can be scary spending your hard earned cash on something that may or may not work when you get it home. What to think about when shopping for a used vehicle? What to look for when physically looking at the vehicle? Listener Feedback: Send us your questions and comments!!! podcast@highsierra4x4.com Suggested Thread of the Week! Dana 60 in my YJ Events and Happenings: Meet and greet Outro: HIGHSIERRA4X4 - 10% off and free shipping on orders over $70 to the lower 48 podcast@highsierra4x4.com www.highsierra4x4com/podcast www.facebook.com/highsierra4x4 www.highsierra4x4.com

Episode 100 - Where Have We Been? What’s up everyone, welcome to the High Sierra 4x4 Podcast!! This is the best off road podcast on the internet!! I’m your host Greg Bakken and hanging out with me today is the awe inspiring fullsize guy Jeff Bakken and the mini me Forrest we are here to share our passion for off roading with you!! Episode 100!! This podcast episode is brought to you by Northridge4x4.com the best online store in the industry for your 4x4 parts HIGHSIERRA4X4 - 10% off and free shipping on orders over $70 to the lower 48. What's up Jeff? What’s up Forrest? Announcements: March Giveaway Main Topic: Where have we been? Episode 100!!!!! What do we think Jeff? Favorite episode Favorite interview Mopar - Episode 20 switch pros - episode 26 Favorite story or experience Listener Feedback: Send us your questions and comments!!! podcast@highsierra4x4.com Suggested Thread of the Week! Adjusting your track bar? Events and Happenings: Meet and greet Outro: HIGHSIERRA4X4 - 10% off and free shipping on orders over $70 to the lower 48 podcast@highsierra4x4.com www.highsierra4x4com/podcast www.facebook.com/highsierra4x4 www.highsierra4x4.com

Panel Brennan Dunn (twitter github blog) Reuven Lerner (twitter github blog) Curtis McHale (twitter github blog) Ashe Dryden (twitter github blog) Eric Davis (twitter github blog) Jeff Schoolcraft (twitter github blog) Charles Max Wood (twitter github Teach Me To Code Rails Ramp Up) Discussion 01:37 - Brennan Dunn Introduction Planscope Double Your Freelancing Rate by Brennan Dunn The Blueprint -- Learning to Sell Online by Brennan Dunn Consultancy Masterclass 02:46 - Closing the Consultancy We Are Titans 04:31 - Working on and Marketing Products 05:37 - Recurring/Predictable Revenue Gail Goodman, Constant Contact. How to Negotiate the Long, Slow, SaaS Ramp of Death 11:28 - Onboarding Clients for Retainer Deals Provide Recurring Value 22:43 - The Proposal Provide a Guarantee 26:49 - Training Engagements and Seminars Lower vs Higher-end Offerings 35:19 - Scalable Training (Video) Mastering Modern Payments: Using Stripe with Rails 36:45 - Marketing Nathan Barry: How To Launch Anything “Be Everywhere” 48:14 - Struggles with building a product Marketing Finding Time Nostalgia for Consulting Pricing 56:05 - Packaging Picks Chromoji (Ashe) PuzzleJuice (Curtis) The Total Money Makeover: A Proven Plan for Financial Fitness by Dave Ramsey (Curtis) Thank You For Arguing, Revised and Updated Edition: What Aristotle, Lincoln, And Homer Simpson Can Teach Us About the Art of Persuasion by Jay Heinrichs (Reuven) INTRO TO JPEGOPTIM AND OPTIPNG (Jeff) Having a Clean Office (Chuck) Fujisu ScanSnap S1300i (Chuck) Informly (Brennan) indieconf (Brennan) Book Club Book Yourself Solid with Michael Port! He will join us for an episode to discuss the book on September 24th. The episode will air on October 3rd. Next Week Training & Coaching Transcript CHUCK: Eric is our ‘Yes’ man. [Hosting and bandwidth provided by the Blue Box Group. Check them out at bluebox.net.] [You're fantastic at coding, but do you have an action plan to take it to the next level? The upcoming book, Next Level Freelance, will help you optimize your freelance business for happiness. The book is packed with actionable steps to make more money, case studies, tips to find more clients, and exercises for you to establish your desired lifestyle. Extras include: 9 interviews with freelancers who make great money while enjoying great work-life balance, videos on strategies to find quality subcontractors, and videos on making more free time by outsourcing your daily tasks. Check it out today at nextlevelfreelance.com!] [This episode is sponsored by Planscope. Planscope’ is a project management and collaboration net built for freelancers in the way they work with clients. It makes it easy to price out new estimates, and once you’re underway and help answer the question, this gets done on time and under budget. I’ve been using Planscope to do my estimates and manage my projects and I really, really like it. It makes it really easy to keep things in order, and understand when things will get done. You can go check it out at Planscope.io.] CHUCK: Hey everybody and welcome to Episode 77 of The Freelancers' Show! This week on our panel, we have Reuven Lerner. REUVEN: Hello there! CHUCK: Curtis McHale. CURTIS: Hello! CHUCK: Ashe Dryden. ASHE: Hi everyone! CHUCK: Eric Davis. ERIC: Hi! CHUCK: Jeff Schoolcraft. JEFF: What’s up! CHUCK: I’m Charles Max Wood from DevChat.tv. This week we have a special guest, Brennan Dunn. BRENNAN: Hey guys! CHUCK: Brennan, since you haven’t been on the show before, do you want to introduce yourself? BRENNAN: Sure! My name is Brennan Dunn. I came from running a consultant business. Within the last year and a half, I’ve actually fully transitioned to making all of my income through products. I’m probably best known for Planscope, which is my project management app.

Panel Steven Bristol (twitter blog) Reuven Lerner (twitter github blog) Curtis McHale (twitter github blog) Eric Davis (twitter github blog) Jeff Schoolcraft (twitter github blog) Jim Gay (twitter github blog) Charles Max Wood (twitter github Teach Me To Code Rails Ramp Up) Discussion 01:15 - Steven Bristol Introduction LessEverything LessAccounting LessFilms LessConf 02:11 - Bookkeeping Why it Sucks 06:04 - Analyzing Numbers Categorization Tagging 08:31 - Why Use LessAccounting? 12:07 - Looking at Your Books (Frequency) LessTimeSpent 14:38 - Steven’s Accounting/Bookkeeping Background 16:42 - LessAccounting vs QuickBooks 19:54 - Building a SaaS Business 21:35 - Consulting 23:24 - Transitioning from Consulting to Product Work 26:34 - Marketing Niche Markets Blog Articles - LessEverything 31:32 - LessEverything Company Makeup Having Employees 34:27 - Building & Running a Business Picks MacBook Pro (Reuven) Relately (Jim) Capsule (Curtis) Manage Your Day-to-Day: Build Your Routine, Find Your Focus, and Sharpen Your Creative Mind (Eric) Software Indie Podcast: From Consultancy to a Product with Rob Rhyne (Eric) Nathan Barry: How To Launch Anything (Jeff) Daring Fireball: Markdown Syntax Documentation (Chuck) Readme Driven Development (Chuck) Dan Gilbert: The surprising science of happiness (Steven) Planscope (Steven) Couch to 5K (Steven) Book Club Getting Things Done with David Allen! He will join us for an episode to discuss the book on July 30th. The episode will air on August 7th. Next Week Recording Video Transcript CHUCK: Why can't those idiots who write software right software? [Hosting and bandwidth provided by the Blue Box Group. Check them out at bluebox.net.] [You're fantastic at code, but do you have an action plan to take it to the next level? The upcoming book, Next Level Freelance, will help you optimize your freelance business for happiness. The book is packed with actionable steps to make more money, case studies, tips to find more clients, and exercises for you to establish your desired lifestyle. Extras include: 9 interviews with freelancers who make great money while enjoying great work-life balance, videos on strategies to find quality subcontractors, and videos on making more free time by outsourcing your daily tasks. Check it out today at nextlevelfreelance.com!] CHUCK: Hey everybody and welcome to Episode 70 of The Freelancers' Show! This week on our panel, we have Reuven Lerner. REUVEN: Hello there! CHUCK: Curtis MacHale. CURTIS: Good day! CHUCK: Eric Davis. ERIC: Hi! CHUCK: Jeff Schoolcraft. JEFF: What's up! CHUCK: Jim Gay. JIM: Hello again! CHUCK: I'm Charles Max Wood from DevChat.tv. This week we have a special guest, and that is Steven Bristol. STEVEN: Hello! CHUCK: Getting started, Steven, do you want to introduce yourself? STEVEN: Sure! My name is Steven Bristol, I run a company called "LessEverything". We do a couple of things. The first thing we do is something called "LessAccounting.com", which is a bookkeeping accounting software we run up in the cloud geared towards small business owners and accountants that hate QuickBooks that hate difficult that want something finally easy in the world of accounting and bookkeeping. We've been doing that for about 6 years now. In addition to that, we have another company called "LessFilms", where we do small films animation, conference videos, that sort of thing for people. And we used to do a thing called "LessConf", which was the best conference in the world; just ask anybody. We started off as a consulting company and bootstrapped our way into a product company. So we've done a little bit of everything in the tech world. CHUCK: Nice. So between you and me and the other few people who might be listening to this -- STEVEN: Sure! CHUCK: Bookkeeping sucks! [Laughs]

Panel Reuven Lerner (twitter github blog) Curtis McHale (twitter github blog) Ashe Dryden (twitter github blog) Eric Davis (twitter github blog) Jeff Schoolcraft (twitter github blog) Charles Max Wood (twitter github Teach Me To Code Rails Ramp Up) Discussion 01:16 - Setting Work Hours “Do Not Disturb” iPhone feature 06:51 - Making Clients Aware of Boundaries 08:33 - Handling “Emergencies” Deciding How Clients Should Contact You 11:48 - Keeping Chat Logs, Meeting Notes, Recordings, etc. Ecamm Call Recorder for Skype 13:15 - Email 15:58 - When Clients Set Boundaries with You 17:44 - Working with/for Family and/or Friends 24:32 - Setting Boundaries for Working at Home with Family Metal Door Stop Sign Is Daddy on a call? A BusyLight Presence indicator for Lync for my Home Office - Scott Hanselman Messages (iMessage for Mac) Picks Drafts (Eric) Sleeping with Your Business Partner by Becky Stewart-Gross (Eric) Fluid App (Curtis) Postman (Jeff) Shift by Hugh Howey (Ashe) Google Apps (Chuck) Fringe (Chuck) Book Club Getting Things Done with David Allen! He will join us for an episode to discuss the book on July 30th. The episode will air on August 7th. Next Week Less Accounting with Steven Bristol Transcript CHUCK: If I ever disappear, it's because I told my Dad that I was moving more than an hour away with his grandchildren. [Hosting and bandwidth provided by the Blue Box Group. Check them out at bluebox.net.] [You're fantastic at code, but do you have an action plan to take it to the next level? The upcoming book, Next Level Freelance, will help you optimize your freelance business for happiness. The book is packed with actionable steps to make more money, case studies, tips to find more clients, and exercises for you to establish your desired lifestyle. Extras include: 9 interviews with freelancers who make great money while enjoying great work-life balance, videos on strategies to find quality subcontractors, and videos on making more free time by outsourcing your daily tasks. Check it out today at nextlevelfreelance.com!] CHUCK: Hey everybody and welcome to Episode 69 of The Freelancers' Show! This week on our panel, we have Reuven Lerner. REUVEN: Hello from Chicago! CHUCK: We have Curtis McHale. CURTIS: Hello! CHUCK: Ashe Dryden. ASHE: Hi everyone! CHUCK: Eric Davis. ERIC: Hi! CHUCK: Jeff Schoolcraft. JEFF: What's up! CHUCK: And I'm Charles Max Wood from DevChat.tv. This week, we're going to be talking about "Setting Boundaries" and how to handle that. Have any of you had a project where you tried to set boundaries with a client and then went poorly? ASHE: I have. Definitely with a certain type of client, my biggest boundary that I set with new clients is the hours that I work. There are certain class of clients that believe that people should be available all the time no matter what; no matter if it's emergency or not, they didn't really care for this trekked work hours. CURTIS: Yeah, I think we've all had that. I had a client email me once and then call me at 2 am, and my response was my rate went up based on how annoyed I am because -- [Laughter] CURTIS: I was really annoyed! I actually tell clients that my weekend rate and my evening rate is based on how annoyed I am. [Chuck laughs] ASHE: Nice. CHUCK: I just tell my clients that it's double after 5 or 6 pm, whatever is side, unless I decide to work. In other words, if it's on my terms; but if they call me, yeah. I also tell them I don't have an on-call rate because I won't be on-call. CURTIS: Yeah, fair enough. I had one client that was upset a couple of weeks ago that I wouldn't launch their site at midnight for their whole 10-people a day and I told them that I would for $10,000; if they want me to do it, that was my going rate for midnight launches. CHUCK: Nice.

Panel Ben Lachman (twitter blog) Robert Cantoni (twitter) Ashe Dryden (twitter github blog) Reuven Lerner (twitter github blog) Curtis McHale (twitter github blog) Eric Davis (twitter github blog) Jeff Schoolcraft (twitter github blog) Charles Max Wood (twitter github Teach Me To Code Rails Ramp Up) Discussion 01:29 - Ben Lachman and Robert Cantoni Introduction Nice Mohawk 02:26 - Finding Work Dividing Client Communication Handling Marketing and Sales 06:52 - Forming a Partnership Contracts 08:23 - Partnerships vs being on your own Finding work for others 15:39 - Managing larger consultancies 16:18 - Potentially expanding the business 18:33 - Marketing Avenues Referrals/Word-of-mouth 23:02 - Working with other consultancies 24:59 - Ideal vision for the business 29:10 - Advice for someone looking to build a consultancy Pick your projects wisely Picks A/B Testing (Curtis) 2k to 10k: Writing Faster, Writing Better, and Writing More of What You Love by Rachel Aaron (Eric) Coursera Public Speaking Course (Ashe) Nairobi Developer School Indiegogo Campaign (Ashe) Amy Cuddy: Your body language shapes who you are (Jeff) Patrick Mackenzie: What Product Companies Can Learn From Consulting Companies (Reuven) David Siteman Garland: Create Awesome Online Courses (Chuck) Jefferson's Bourbon (Ben) Matasano Crypto Challenges (Ben) ustwo Pixel Perfect Precision Handbook (Robert) Mike Monteiro: Getting Comfortable With Contracts (Robert) Book Club Getting Things Done with David Allen! He will join us for an episode to discuss the book on July 30th. The episode will air on August 7th. Next Week Setting Boundaries Transcript CHUCK: Ashe is our voice of reason. BEN: Great. [Reuven laughs] ASHE: Oh, we're in trouble. [Laughter] ERIC: Can we mute her then? [Laughter] [Hosting and bandwidth provided by the Blue Box Group. Check them out at bluebox.net.] [You're fantastic at code, but do you have an action plan to take it to the next level? The upcoming book, Next Level Freelance, will help you optimize your freelance business for happiness. The book is packed with actionable steps to make more money, case studies, tips to find more clients, and exercises for you to establish your desired lifestyle. Extras include: 9 interviews with freelancers who make great money while enjoying great work-life balance, videos on strategies to find quality subcontractors, and videos on making more free time by outsourcing your daily tasks. Check it out today at nextlevelfreelance.com!] CHUCK: Hey everybody and welcome to Episode 68 of The Freelancers' Show! This week on our panel, we have Ashe Dryden. ASHE: Hello from Madison, Wisconsin! CHUCK: Reuven Lerner. REUVEN: Hello there! CHUCK: Curtis McHale. CURTIS: Hey! CHUCK: Eric Davis. ERIC: Hello! CHUCK: Jeff Schoolcraft. JEFF: What's up! CHUCK: I'm Charles Max Wood from DevChat.tv. We also have a couple of special guests! Our first guest is Ben Lachman. BEN: Hello from Athens, Ohio! CHUCK: And we also have Robert Cantoni. ROBERT: Yup! That's my name! Hi, everybody! CHUCK: Why don't you guys introduce yourselves before we get going? BEN: Go for it, Bob! ROBERT: [Laughs] Okay! Ben and I work together, we have a company called "Nice Mohawk Ltd.". We do iOS development and lots of freelancing stuff. We have one app of our own that's sort of out in the store, that's what we do; mostly contract work at this point. CHUCK: You say nice mohawk, and I think bikers. ROBERT: [Laughs] Like motorcycle? CHUCK: Yeah. ROBERT: Motorcycle bikes? CHUCK: Yup. BEN: Not tricycle. ROBERT: Yeah. CHUCK: Not tricycles [laughs]. Sweet. [Robert laughs] CHUCK: Ben, anything you want to add to that? BEN: No! I mean we have -- so I started out on my own. And then a little over a year ago, we started Nice Mohawk together,

Panel Wayne Breitbarth (twitter linkedin) Reuven Lerner (twitter github blog) Curtis McHale (twitter github blog) Eric Davis (twitter github blog) Jeff Schoolcraft (twitter github blog) Charles Max Wood (twitter github Teach Me To Code Rails Ramp Up) Discussion 01:07 - Wayne Breitbarth Introduction The Power Formula for LinkedIn Success by Wayne Breitbarth 01:37 - Importance of LinkedIn 02:39 - Making Connections Advance Search Filtering 03:16 - Handling Random Requests/Spam 04:16 - Finding Others vs Getting Found 07:34 - Profile Advice Catchy Headline Descriptive Summary Establish Credibility List Resources 12:50 - Profiles vs Resumes Attention Span Calls to Action 17:39 - Groups 20:00 - Choosing LinkedIn over other platforms (i.e. Google+) 22:03 - Endorsements 26:06 - Free vs Paid Accounts 28:19 - Getting the most out of LinkedIn Cool Profile Strategic Connections 31:28 - Volunteer Causes and Experiences 34:39 - Profile Pictures 35:53 - Finding and joining good groups 37:38 - Handling Profile Views Finding out how people find you 41:27 - Spending time on LinkedIn 42:29 - Reaching out to others via LinkedIn 43:36 - LinkedIn Third Party Applications LinkedIn App Hootsuite 44:27 - Status Updates 44:48 - Company Pages Picks S5: A Simple Standards-Based Slide Show System (Reuven) org-S5 (Reuven) Backups (Reuven) PHPStorm Tutorials (Curtis) My Daily Scrum (Curtis) Scrivener (Eric) Bartender | Mac Menu Bar Item Control (Jeff) Platform: Get Noticed in a Noisy World by Michael S. Hyatt (Wayne) This Is Your Life Podcast (Chuck) Platform University (Chuck) Next Week Freelancers Show: Building a Consultancy with Ben Lachman and Robert Cantoni Transcript [Hosting and bandwidth provided by the Blue Box Group. Check them out at bluebox.net.] [You're fantastic at code, but do you have an action plan to take it to the next level? The upcoming book, Next Level Freelance, will help you optimize your freelance business for happiness. The book is packed with actionable steps to make more money, case studies, tips to find more clients, and exercises for you to establish your desired lifestyle. Extras include: 9 interviews with freelancers who make great money while enjoying great work-life balance, videos on strategies to find quality subcontractors, and videos on making more free time by outsourcing your daily tasks. Check it out today at nextlevelfreelance.com!] CHUCK: Hey everybody and welcome to Episode 67 of the Freelancers Show! This week on our panel, we have Reuven Lerner. REUVEN: Hello! CHUCK: Curtis McHale. CURTIS: Good day! CHUCK: Eric Davis. ERIC: Hi! CHUCK: Jeff Schoolcraft. JEFF: What's up! CHUCK: I'm Charles Max Wood from DevChat.tv. This week, we have a special guest and that's Wayne Breitbarth. WAYNE: Hi everybody! CHUCK: Since you haven't been on the show before, do you want to introduce yourself? WAYNE: Sure! My name is Wayne Breitbarth, I'm the author of "The Power Formula for LinkedIn Success" - sort of a self-taught, self-made LinkedIn expert; didn't want anything to do with social media, but now has found a way to actually make a living doing it and just having a blast doing so. CHUCK: Awesome. I've been reading your book, and it's really, really good. And I'm really excited to talk about a lot of the stuff related to LinkedIn. For us as freelancers, I'm a little curious, what do you think the most important part of LinkedIn is for us? WAYNE: I think what we all have to do -- we're all sort of in the game of trying to build our business every single day of the week, right? One of the most important things you got to do is make a lot of connections - the right connections. Secondly, you got to make sure that your profile has got all the critical keywords. I know you are very techy guys, so you probably get that part that many people don't.

Panel David J. Soler (twitter blog) Curtis McHale (twitter github blog) Eric Davis (twitter github blog) Jeff Schoolcraft (twitter github blog) Reuven Lerner (twitter github blog) Charles Max Wood (twitter github Teach Me To Code Rails Ramp Up) Discussion 01:04 - David J. Soler Introduction Relationship Marketing & Sales Podcast davidjsoler.com 01:54 - Building Relationships and Getting Referrals Trust, Likability, Credibility + Value (TLC+V) Handwritten, Personal Notes 13:39 - Trust Integrity Reputation Consistency 23:52 - Unconventional Marketing ‘Wow’ Factor Before, During, and After Items of Value 30:11 - Referrals 32:10 - Meet Your Clients 34:31 - Appreciation and Encouragement 36:37 - Relationships Over Business Picks Thou Shall Prosper: Ten Commandments for Making Money by Rabbi Daniel Lappin (Curtis) Ladda Buttons (Curtis) Freelancing Rules of Thumb (Eric) Apple Developer: for WWDC Videos (Jeff) Mac Pro (Jeff) httpie (Reuven) Reversing PDF Documents (Reuven) Explore It!: Reduce Risk and Increase Confidence with Exploratory Testing by Elisabeth Hendrickson (Chuck) The Compound Effect by Darren Hardy (David) Next Week Freelancers Show: LinkedIn with Wayne Breitbarth Transcript DAVID: Are we live on the show? Are we broadcasting...or just setting up? CHUCK: I'm just doing some quick sound checks and then we'll get going... DAVID: Okay, great! CHUCK: Which is just me watching the volume meter while everybody talks. So, go ahead. REUVEN: Ohh! Is that what secretly happens? [laughter] REUVEN: And here I thought you're just trying to get us to be friendly. [Hosting and bandwidth provided by the Blue Box Group. Check them out at bluebox.net.] CHUCK: Hey everybody and welcome to Episode 66 of The Freelancers Show! This week on our panel, we have Curtis McHale. CURTIS: Good morning! CHUCK: Eric Davis. ERIC: Hello! CHUCK: Jeff Schoolcraft. JEFF: What's up! CHUCK: Reuven Lerner is trying to connect. I guess the wiring in Atlantic Ocean got cut; somebody wrong it over or something. I'm Charles Max Wood from DevChat.tv. This week, we have a special guest and that's David J. Soler. DAVID: Hello everybody! Thanks for having me! CHUCK: No problem. Do you want to introduce yourself really quickly? DAVID: Sure! My name is David J. Soler, I am the host of the Relationship Marketing and Sales Podcast. You can learn more about me at davidjsoler.com. I am here to share and answer new questions that I can that you guys want to ask! CHUCK: Awesome! Now, I know David because we're in the same Mastermind Group, so we talk twice a month and he has helped me with quite a bit of marketing stuff. The thing that really kind of got me excited about getting you on the call besides your podcast, which is awesome, you've had some great guests, too. I think my favorite is the one with David Siteman Garland. DAVID: Yeah, it was blast. He's just a real smart guy, online entrepreneur, and just lot of great helpful tips. I'm glad you enjoyed it. It's been a blast to interview people like him. CHUCK: Yeah. Anyway, you did something that was a little bit kind of outside the box that got me thinking, so I thought we'd bring that on and have you talk to us a little bit about some of the, I guess, less conventional things that you do. What you did was you sent 'Thank You' cards out to everybody in our Mastermind Group. I have to say, I don't usually get Pay-Per-Mail unless it's Pay-Per-Mail that says, "You owe us money." [David chuckles] CHUCK: So, I thought that was interesting! I was just wondering, what other ideas or techniques or ways of coming up with things like that, that we could do in our freelancing businesses to kind of make a  connection? DAVID: Sure, definitely! Well, the thing about it and approach that I'm trying to take you say unconventional, really,

Panel Curtis McHale (twitter github blog) Reuven Lerner (twitter github blog) Ashe Dryden (twitter github blog) Jeff Schoolcraft (twitter github blog) Charles Max Wood (twitter github Teach Me To Code Rails Ramp Up) Discussion 42:46 - Social Media Panel Activity Levels SaneBox 03:12 - Primary Social Networks Twitter Facebook LinkedIn 04:07 - LinkedIn Recommendations Job Leads Resume @ProBlogger: The Ultimate Guide to Making Money with the Amazon Affiliate Program 10:25 - Twitter Censorship Visibility 16:54 - Facebook Games Facebook Ads Rob Walling: The 5 Minute Guide To Cheap Startup Advertising 22:10 - Social Media Management Apps Tweetbot HootSuite Buffer Instapaper If This Then That (IFTTT) Pinboard 24:57 - Automated Tweeting 27:47 - The benefits and pitfalls of using Twitter Is that Owned Content Worth Anything? - Curtis McHale Building and maintaining relationships 31:45 - Google+ Google+ Communities SEO Benefits Google Authorship 35:15 - Forum Sites Reddit /r/freelance FreelanceSwitch Hacker News Harassment and bullying Paul Graham: What I’ve Learned from Hacker News 43:11 - Membership Sites 5000bc Dynamite Circle Picks HappyCow: Vegetarian Restaurants, Vegan Restaurant, Natural Health Food Stores  (Reuven) Mouseflow (Reuven) Python Module of the Week (Reuven) xkcd: Is It Worth the Time? (Jeff) 78,000 Apply for A One-Way Ticket to Colonize Mars | Singularity Hub (Jeff) Favstar (Ashe) feedly (Ashe) TripIt Pro (Ashe) Chrome Messenger Bag (Curtis) Philips O’Neill Over-Ear Flex Headphones (Curtis) Review - Philips O'Neill The Stretch Headphones - Curtis McHale (Curtis) Ergotron Monitor Stand (Curtis) Authority by Nathan Barry (Chuck) Candy Crush Saga (Chuck) Next Week Handling Prospects' Poor Technology Choices with Jevin Maltais Transcript CHUCK: My daughter put, "My dad's job is cutting the grass," and my son put, "My dad's job is working..." [Hosting and bandwidth provided by the Blue Box Group. Check them out at bluebox.net.] CHUCK: Hey everybody, and welcome to Episode 64 of the Freelancers Show! This week on our panel we have, Curtis McHale. CURTIS: Hello! CHUCK: Reuven Lerner. REUVEN: Hello there! CHUCK: Ashe Dryden. ASHE: Hi there! CHUCK: Jeff Schoolcraft. JEFF: What's up! CHUCK: I'm Charles Max Wood from DevChat.tv. And this week, we're going to be talking about "Social Media" for freelancers. How active are you guys on your social media? ASHE: I'm on a limb here and say I'm probably the most prolific Squidoo-er of all of us. CHUCK: I would guess you're right. [laughter] CURTIS: I'd certainly go into heads down mode, probably once a day or I don't post anything for extended extended periods. CHUCK: Yeah. I put funny odds and ends that people say on Twitter and then I do interact with people on Twitter. So if you tweet at me, then I'll probably reply if you say something that is more interesting than just yes or no. But other than that, I'm really not on there too much. REUVEN: So I'm going to be at the other end of the spectrum from Ashe, and I think I might have not tweet once. I'm starting to get convinced that it's worth doing, but so far, that's like -- once you are sent out a note on Facebook, so in everyone, thanks for all the happy birthday wishes. So if there's anywhere I'm active at all, it's on LinkedIn. But even there, it's pretty moderate. CHUCK: Wow. CURTIS: Yeah, on Facebook, I always checks as my wife were saying happy birthday. So I'm going to get like a million updates in a day, and they all email me because I check it so infrequently that I just have it set to "email me". CHUCK: Yeah, mine set to "email me", and then I use "SaneBox", and SaneBox sorts it all off so I never see them anyway. [laughter] ASHE: Awesome!

Panel Curtis McHale (twitter github blog) Eric Davis (twitter github blog) Jeff Schoolcraft (twitter github blog) Reuven Lerner (twitter github blog) Charles Max Wood (twitter github Teach Me To Code Rails Ramp Up) Discussion 00:37 - Reuven Lerner Introduction 01:10 - Curtis McHale Introduction WordPress The Coderpath Podcast 01:57 - Consulting, Tools & Apps fvrb (Curtis’ Ruby Brigade) Billings Pro Ronin Trello Evernote Dropbox Evernote Hello Evernote Skitch Napkin Mailbox IFTTT (If This Then That) 10:21 - Ronin FreshBooks Harvest Harvest Online Invoicing & Time Tracking: Curtis McHale Multiple Currencies Marketcircle: Daylite Complete Review of Daylite 4: Curtis McHale 13:16 - Customer Relationship Management The Trello/Evernote Combo Highrise Salesforce Curtis’ Trello Gist Podio 15:50 - Trello 17:18 - Booking Out Work 18:38 - Consulting in WordPress 21:33 - Getting Leads & Establishing Connections 23:15 - Application Development with WordPress Tom McFarlin 25:51 - Advantages of WordPress Joomla/Mambo Drupal 29:18 - Dealing w/ new WordPress Versions Security Issues Metasploit 34:39 - Resources curtismchale.ca WP Theme Tutorial Become a WordPress Development Professional by Curtis McHale sfndesign.ca Picks IRS Cracks Down on Independent Contractors - What it Means for Your Small Business (Eric)  WordPress Core is Secure - Stop Telling People Otherwise (Eric) One Tab Chrome Extension (Jeff) Arrested Development (Reuven) ridiculous_fish (Reuven) zsh-syntax-highlighting (Reuven) Hanping Chinese Dictionary Pro (Reuven) iOctocat (Chuck) ioctocat on GitHub (Chuck) Kinesis Freestyle Keyboard (Curtis) Unfinished Business Podcast (Curtis) The Trello/Evernote Combo (Curtis) Next Week Social Media Transcript [Hosting and bandwidth provided by the Blue Box Group. Check them out at bluebox.net.] CHUCK: Hey everybody and welcome to the Freelancers Show Episode 63! This week on our panel we have, Eric Davis. ERIC: Hello! CHUCK: Jeff Schoolcraft. JEFF: What's up! CHUCK: I'm Charles Max Wood from DevChat.tv. We also have, Reuven Lerner. REUVEN: Hi there! CHUCK: We also have a special guest, and that's Curtis McHale. CURTIS: Hey! CHUCK: So I'm going to have Reuven introduce himself first, and then we'll have Curtis introduce himself. REUVEN: Sure! So I'm a web developer mostly doing Ruby on Rails and Postgres stuff; I've been freelancing since 1995. I would say I divide my time between actual programming and consulting, and then I'm off a lot of training as well; I teach a lot of courses. And I live in Israel, which you might not figure out from my accent. CHUCK: Yeah, we have 3 time zones, 4 time zones represented on the show right now. [Reuven chuckles] CHUCK: And Curtis, you want to introduce yourself? CURTIS: Sure! I'm Curtis McHale. I actually started, I guess many years ago now, doing some frontend Rails and Ruby stuff. But now, I pretty much only do WordPress work. That's what I do; I've been building sites and stuff since 1996, I guess. That's when I started dabbling in it in amidst to have a psychology degree. CHUCK: Yeah, I have to say I remember listening to you and Miles on the Coderpath Podcast. CURTIS: Yeah, that's when I was doing my list of it, like I was saying earlier just before the show, I went to Mountain West and did a bunch of stuff, but I did not come in as frontend Rails so I needed to pay the bills and that's what I did. CHUCK: That makes sense! [Curtis chuckles] CHUCK: So I'm a little curious, we got you on here to talk about WordPress, we also got you on here to talk about your consulting in general, so how do you wind up making that transition? Did you just take the work that was coming in, and that was WordPress? Or, was there more to it than that? CURTIS: Well,

Panel Ashe Dryden (twitter github blog) Eric Davis (twitter github blog) Jeff Schoolcraft (twitter github blog) Charles Max Wood (twitter github Teach Me To Code Rails Ramp Up) Discussion 00:39 - Experience working with fixed bids 04:08 - Risks Value 06:45 - Collecting Payment Working in phases and milestones 08:56 - Are fixed bid projects fair? 16:57 - Nailing down specifics 19:51 - Dealing with scope creep Contract clauses/additional contracts 26:15 - Getting clients to agree with your fixed bid or hourly preference 28:29 - Estimates Prioritizing Point estimation 37:11 - Transitioning from fixed bid to hourly work 38:42 - Figuring out what to bid Project management Value-Based Fees: How to Charge - and Get - What You're Worth by Alan Weiss Option pricing 44:41 - Ask clients why they prefer fixed bid pricing Picks Healthy Programmer by Joe Kutner (Ashe) DuoLingo (Ashe) #RubyThanks (Ashe) Becoming a Better Programmer Indie GoGo campaign (Ashe) Douglas Rushkoff: Wall Street Journal adaptation from Present Shock (Eric) Ruby Heroes (Chuck) Colloquy (Chuck) Value-Based Fees: How to Charge - and Get - What You're Worth by Alan Weiss (Jeff) Next Week How do you convince clients of the value of tests, refactoring, etc.? Transcript ERIC: Chuck, I'm cold. Keep me warm! [Hosting and bandwidth provided by the Blue Box Group. Check them out at bluebox.net] CHUCK: Hey everybody and welcome to Episode 57 of the Ruby Freelancers Show! This week on our panel, we have Ashe Dryden. ASHE: Hello from Madison, Wisconsin! CHUCK: Eric Davis. ERIC: Hello! CHUCK: Jeff Schoolcraft. JEFF: What's up! CHUCK: I'm Charles Max Wood from devchat.tv. This week, we're going to be talking about "Fixed Bids". How much of you guys done with fixed bids? ASHE: I used to do them a lot more than I do them now; I actually tried to not do fixed bids. CHUCK: Is there a reason for that? ASHE: Yeah. It never really sticks really well with the fixed bid; I mostly do hourly now. I prefer hourly because it allows the client to kind of expand or contract their needs without feeling limited by the contract and it makes me feel less mean. CHUCK: Oh, it makes sense. ASHE: So I don't have to constantly say "Well, that wasn't really part of the original contract". I can give them what they need and what they want without having to have that difficult conversation. CHUCK: How about you guys, Eric and Jeff? JEFF: I've done a few very small fixed bid projects. But by large, I'm mostly hourly mostly for the same reason as Ashe has. And beyond that, it's really hard to get a scope timed on off and it makes it comfortable for me to try to bid on something. ERIC: For me...I don't know, maybe 20% if that -- I actually have a different reason. I don't mind fixed bids, but the project has to be very specific. There has to be a lot of trust between me and the client first off so that I can trust that they're going to understand what's cocube is; we don't have those problems or discussions. The other side of it is, the project has to be [inaudible] and that it's something I've done before or there's not a lot of technical risk on the project. If there is a lot of technical risk for a lot of unknowns, then I basically say "We're going to have to be hourly because I can't guess this upfront and commit to it". CHUCK: Yeah. I've done a couple of fixed bids myself, they were less than a thousand dollars effect; both of them were $500 a piece and it was an enough work that it wasn't that risky. One of them, I really actually didn't get paid on; and it was because I was setting up some software, some third-party software, for somebody on their server. He was unhappy with the result because there was a bug in the software that I set up, but I didn't actually write it. Anyway, it's kind of interesting I haven't done major fixed bid projects,

Panel Ashe Dryden (twitter github blog) Eric Davis (twitter github blog) Evan Light (twitter github blog) Jeff Schoolcraft (twitter github blog) Charles Max Wood (twitter github Teach Me To Code Rails Ramp Up) Discussion 00:48 - Ashe Dryden Introduction Indie Developer and Conference Organizer from Madison, Wisconsin 02:39 - Contracts Signing yours vs theirs Having a contract The Ruby Freelancers Show 049 - Contracts with Attorney Jared Richards 09:08 - Working with Down Payments and Deposits 10:35 - Clients asking you to reduce your hourly rate or paying you in something other than money 13:26 - Discovery (DaaS - Discovery as a Service) 19:35 - Referral-based Work 20:58 - Business Hours & Availability Poor Project Management Needy Clients Setting clients up to work in a way that works well for you 26:28 - Clients treating consultants and contractors as employees Points of contact 31:49 - Clients not knowing what they want 33:58 - Signing unreasonable non-compete agreements 37:57 - Timelines and Deliverables Asking clients for what you need to do your work/keep deadlines Setting expectations before work begins 45:05 - Communication Meeting in the middle Has the client worked with a freelancer before? 48:02 - Deal Breakers Expertise Conflicts Emergency Deadlines 55:20 - Managing Non-Payment Non-refundable Deposits One strike, two strike approach Mike Monteiro | F*ck You. Pay Me.  (Video, NSFW/language) Freelance Contracts That Anyone Can Understand: Ashe Dryden ashedryden / freelance-contract 58:53 - Client Respect Disappearing Clients Punctuality Meeting Agendas Meetings Picks Arduino (Eric) amperka / ino (Eric) Block Fortress (Evan) Darmok and Jalad at Tanagra Star Trek TNG Shirt | eBay (Evan) Sevabot (Jeff) Google Calendar (Chuck) Amazon S3 (Chuck) graze (Ashe) Gittip (Ashe) DAYTUM (Ashe) Next Week Better Communications with Clients, Prospects, and other Contractors with Jenn Swanson (Communication Diva) Transcript CHUCK: That's true. I have pretty high tolerance for a lot of things. EVAN: Well, you work with Dave Brady, right? [Hosting and bandwidth provided by the Blue Box Group. Check them out at bluebox.net] CHUCK: Hey everybody and welcome to Episode 54 of The Ruby Freelancers Show. This week on our panel, we have Eric Davis. ERIC: Hello! CHUCK: Evan Light. EVAN: It's really episode 42.. CHUCK: Jeff Schoolcraft. JEFF: What's up! CHUCK: I'm Charles Max Wood from devchat.tv. We have a special guest this week, Ashe Dryden. ASHE: Hi there! CHUCK: Do you want to introduce yourself really quickly since you haven't been on the show? ASHE: Yeah, that's fine. My name is Ashe Dryden, obviously. I live in Madison, Wisconsin; I'm an indie developer and conference organizer, and generally, community harasser. CHUCK: [laughs] Yes. EVAN: It fits in the one who are troublemaker. [laughter] CHUCK: Yup. We're learning from the best. [Evan laughs] CHUCK: Anyway, this week we're going to be talking about "Red Flags" with potential and current clients. It was interesting the way it came about. I had been fighting with -- I don't want to use the word 'fighting' -- but I had been emailing former client who hadn't paid me for probably like 7 or 8 months. And so there was this whole discussion that we had on Twitter about deposits and things like that, and Ashe mentioned that she has this list -- I don't know if it's a formal list or kind of a mental list -- of red flags that she watches for. So we thought we'd get her on the show to see what red flags she has for current client, some potential clients. I'm sure we all have things to add and experience that we've had with clients that can tell you that some -- EVAN: Oh, no! All my clients have been saints, so I don't know what you're talking about. [silence]

Panel Evan Light (twitter github blog) Eric Davis (twitter github blog) Jeff Schoolcraft (twitter github blog) Jim Gay (twitter github blog) Discussion 01:30 - Dealing with unrealistic expectations 03:13 - “The Iron Triangle” Cost Performance Schedule 04:02 - Bad management 05:07 - Establishing expectations Prioritizing Schedule & Budget 08:08 - Rescue Clients & Projects 11:34 - Developers are not interchangeable 12:03 - Approaching a project 13:55 - Business owner and end user communication 16:58 - Client Communication Trade-offs Hired guns 21:47 - Amateurs vs Professionals 24:04 - Managing communication expectations 28:57 - Engagement & Evaluation of process 34:24 - Wrapping up a project 38:36 - Types of projects Clearly defined outcomes Ongoing 42:23 - Client domains 47:33 - Influencing clients and teams towards better practices 50:30 - Clients that don’t want your input Picks Kalzumeus Blog (Eric) gfxCardStatus (Jim) The New CTO: Uncle Bob (Jim) Verizon LTE (Evan) Kalzumeus Podcast 3: Growing Consulting Practices, with Brennan Dunn (Jeff) IBM 168 | Earning Passive Income with Software, an Interview with Dane Maxwell (Jeff) Anvil for Mac (Jeff) Transcript  JIM: Are we the optimal people to talk about this? EVAN: Oh, god. How long are we going to spend figuring this out? [Are you a busy Ruby developer who wants to take their freelance business to the next level? Interested in working smarter not harder? Then check out the upcoming book “Next Level Freelancing: Developer Edition” Practical Steps to Work Less, Travel and Make More Money. It includes interviews and case studies with successful freelancers, who have made it by expanding their consultancy, develop passive income through informational products, build successful SaaS products, and become rockstar consultants making a minimum of $200/hour. There are all kinds of practical steps on getting started and if you sign up now, you’ll get 50% off when it’s released. You can find it at nextlevelfreelancing.com] [Hosting and bandwidth provided by the Blue Box Group. Check them out at bluebox.net] EVAN: Hi and welcome to the Ruby Freelancer podcast. I'm your temporary host in lieu of Chuck not being here. This is Evan light and today, I got here Eric Davis. ERIC: Hey! EVAN: Jeff Schoolcraft. JEFF: What's up. EVAN: Jim Gay. [silence] Jim Gay? JIM: Yeah, I'm here. EVAN: OK. Cool. JIM: Thank you. That mute button is not working like I thought. EVAN: (laughs) Nice. And that is already in the recording. And today we are going to talk about Managing Client Expectations. So, who wants to get started? JIM: the first thing that comes to me with managing client expectations is an experience I had on a project where, we were in crunch mode right in the start of the project. It was a rescue project and it was terrible code and the project manager was agreeing to his superiors that we would get x,y and z launched by a certain and who would come and tell us the date. And that's always a recipe for disaster. And we have a new developer come on to the project. He had been there like, I think he came on Friday and we had to do work for the weekend. So he, like his first start on the project was over the weekend, Monday morning. We missed the deadline of course because things weren’t working right. And the project manager came in; we were doing our stand up meeting Monday morning and the first thing out of his mouth was, “You guys are killing me.” And it totally killed our morale. So right from the get go, we all have to put everything together and figure out, like, “Oh, how are we going to work on this person who clearly has a misunderstanding of what can be done on the project or with the development team.” So that was the challenge right from the get go for me. EVAN: In my experience,

Panel Charles Max Wood (twitter github Teach Me To Code Rails Summer Camp) Eric Davis (twitter github blog) Evan Light (twitter github blog) Jeff Schoolcraft (twitter github blog) Discussion Fixed bid Time and materials Give a budget to the client Scope creep Do you renegotiate the contract on scope creep? Short fixed bids can help manage costs and risk Customer management Fixed vs. Hourly is a discussion of risk Provide options for a fixed bid Multipliers for each unknown Risk is added for each new technology added to the stack Alan Weiss Start up with a courting period and then renegotiate after the courting period Shorten the scope of the project When you lower your bid, remove features (value) from the bid Charge more! Picks Find a Mastermind or Group of people who do what you do (Chuck) Heil PR-40 Microphone (Chuck) Other dynamic (Chuck) Behringer XENYX (Chuck) Roland R-05 (Chuck) Resounder (Chuck) Adobe Audition (Chuck) Million Dollar Consulting (Eric) The Consulting Bible (Eric) Peepcode Play by Play (Eric) Destroy All Software (Eric) (anti-pick) iMac Microphone (Evan) (anti-pick) Eric Davis' Internet Connection (Evan) Math Minute Additions (Jeff) Steel City Ruby Conf (Jeff) Mass Effect 3 (Jeff) Star Wars the Old Republic (Evan) Transcript CHUCK: Anyway I’ve got to hang up and get off so-- EVAN: Yeah, whatever. ERIC: Yeah you got what you need out of us. I see. CHUCK: Yeah exactly. EVAN:  At least you kiss us after you f--- us. JEFF: That has got to be the sound. CHUCK: Hey everybody! Welcome back to the Ruby Freelancer Show. On today’s panel we have Eric Davis. ERIC: Hello. CHUCK: We also have Evan Light. EVAN: Hi! CHUCK: And we also have Jeff Schoolcraft. JEFF: What's up? CHUCK: Now we’ve kind of been a quite bunch this morning, so we have to see how the show goes. So we were discussing what we want to talk about and one of the things that somebody brought up (and I’ve been asked a few times) is whether or not to take fixed bids. And I'm pretty sure I know what you guys are going to say, so if anyone wants to chime in and share their opinion on whether fixed bids or hourly, or either one or both are okay, go ahead. ERIC:   Well why don’t we start with actually defining what fixed bid is, because I see people say, don’t do fixed bids. But they actually don’t mean the same thing on someone else. CHUCK: Okay, so when I say fixed bids, what do you think? ERIC: For me, it’s basically a set cost, typically a set of features and then there will typically be like a set deadline which goes wishing by usually. CHUCK: Right, and then the other side of the spectrum is every hour I work, you pay me X amount of money right? ERIC: Yeah and some people consider that hourly. CHUCK: What else would you consider hourly? JEFF: Not government based, we will call fixed bid from fixed price and that's all the expenses everything, you are doing for whatever scope the project is, rolls up to some big number. And the other to way to do, is time and materials. So, you charge for every minute you work on that project and every pencil you buy or whatever you do to clear it up. But that is the other, I don’t know, vernacular terms I heard for those two billing concepts. CHUCK: Right. I want to see you code with a pencil, that would be fun. JEFF: Sometimes it will be faster. CHUCK: It's easier to debug. You just turn it over and use the eraser right? ERIC: Yeah I actually do it lot on index cards, when modelling or whatever, just kind of write stuff on index card. If it's not going to look like it's going to relay just throw the index card away. It’s a lot faster than removing code. CHUCK: That's true. That’s kind of an interesting planning phase or I guess modelling phase. And you can do agile, so that you are consistently updating your model as you code.

Jeff Wilcox is a developer on the Silverlight team. He spends a lot of his time (~80%) coding in C++. Strange? Of course not... Silverlight is a portable managed runtime and C++ (C with classes in this case) is what enables Silverlight portability. Of course, Jeff also spends a significant amount of his time writing the managed parts of Silverlight (controls, libraries, etc.). He is an expert in both the managed and native programming models and he's responsible for some of the really powerful and widely used Silverlight controls that you employ when you're programming WP7 devices or Silverlight apps for Windows or OSX. Jeff is a code-cranking machine and a very talented software engineer. Code on, Jeff!What will Erik ask Jeff? What rabbit holes will we jump into?This way, Alice. No, that way.Keep cranking out great code, Jeff...and checking it in!Tune in. Enjoy.