Podcast appearances and mentions of rob what

Josy Amann is Co-founder at Media Matters Worldwide, an analytics-driven, brand-power-focused omnichannel media buying, and planning agency serving B2B and B2C clientele. In 2005, Josy and her co-founder left a large agency where they had been providing media buying and planning to start Media Matters – with no money and a two-pronged plan – to get their own clients and to freelance with other agencies. Their first client was a “gift” from their prior agency. Josy says referrals sustained the agency for the first ten years. In 2019, MMWW hired a leadership team to help scale the business, to be able to serve larger clients and to meet the variety of technological demands. Completely remote from day one, MMWW tripled its employees from 20 to 60 in two years – during Covid! Omnichannel marketing encompasses both traditional and digital advertising. Traditional advertising includes linear (scheduled broadcast) TV and radio, outdoor displays, direct mail, and print. Digital advertising may involve: Programmatic purchasing (using automated technology to buy advertising space) OTT (over-the-top) delivery (customized, precisely targeted content on online streaming channels, CTV [cable TV], digital radio), or  The utilization of banners, videos, and social media.  In this interview, Josy explains that digital outdoors has increased in importance because this adspace is:  More available than in the past,  More trackable, and  Can be purchased in dayparts as is done on TV . . . increasing efficiency and reducing costs by buying the time and location that reaches your target (commuting?) audience. Josy says buying advertising to promote brand power affects strategies, the types of media purchased, “and even sometimes the audiences.” Josie finds the need to adapt to constant technological change is both a challenge . . . and exciting . . . and notes, in particular some current issues that will affect her industry.  Internally, the MMWW media team leads the overall strategy of the business and provides thought leadership and communications planning by: Consulting with clients to define target audiences  Researching where the audience lives and how they consume media Determining what the client can afford and the most efficient way to use the client's budget Establishing a strategic messaging framework that seamlessly aligns audiences with the messages, types of media used through the consumer journey, KPIs, and client goals Traditional media (which requires relationships with channel representatives nationwide) and  Programmatic and social media (which requires experience on all the different platforms). Purchasing a client's strategic mix of:  Utilizing analytics and attribution reporting to ensure the interrelationships between the various media channels are supportive. Josy can be reached on LinkedIn or on her agency's website at: https://mediamattersww.com/. Transcript Follows: ROB: Welcome to the Marketing Agency Leadership Podcast. I'm your host, Rob Kischuk, and I am joined today by Josy Amann, Co-founder at Media Matters Worldwide, headquartered in San Francisco, California. Welcome to the podcast Josy. JOSY: Hi, Rob. Thank you so much for having me. ROB: It's wonderful to have you here. Why don't you kick us off by telling us about Media Matters Worldwide and what your superpowers are as a firm? JOSY: Superpowers, I love that question. I always tell my kids, “Focus on your superpower, focus on your superpower!” [laughs] Media Matters Worldwide, we are a media buying and planning agency. We've been in business since 2005. We are buying omnichannel media across all different types of businesses. Half our clients are B2B, half are B2C. But we play in the media buying and planning space and the analytics. It's kind of the dorky side of the business. ROB: [laughs] Perhaps dorky, but very important to get right and also probably quite easy to do wrong. When you say omnichannel, right now in 2021, what channels are encompassed in “omnichannel”? What should people be thinking of? JOSY: The landscape is shifting very quickly, but omnichannel traditionally means traditional – how you think about linear TV and radio in your car and outdoor and direct mail and print – and then everything digital under the sun. It can be programmatic media, it can be OTT or CTV or digital radio or banners or video or social media, all of that. Omnichannel is truly everywhere where you can possibly consume media, we are buying it. ROB: I know even out of home is getting very digital these days. Is that increasingly in the mix, or is it static but different formats? How does that fit into the puzzle? JOSY: Digital outdoors is much more in the mix because it's (1) more available, (2) more trackable, and (3) you can serve up ads on digital the way you do on TV. So you can buy dayparts. If you just want to buy when people are going to work and coming home, you can buy that. It's little ways, a little bit more affordable and more targetable. ROB: That absolutely makes sense. You look at these digital billboards, and sometimes I wonder – I'll see a local restaurant advertising that they're hiring, and I don't even know how the economics of that work, but I suspect maybe there's a branding component to it as well beyond just the hiring. But it's a little crazy to think about a little seafood restaurant running a billboard ad to hire somebody for their kitchen. JOSY: Yeah. You asked about superpower, and brand performance I would say is our superpower. Thinking about, exactly to your point, a restaurant trying to hire someone, that's really lower funnel type of advertising. That's very pointed. It's not trying to say “We're the best restaurant in the world.” We're trying to get someone in the door to get hired. That's brand performance. Brand is a whole different world of types of media you buy, the strategies behind it, even, sometimes, the audiences. So linking those two and providing analytics, providing the thought leadership and the strategy behind that – that's our superpower. ROB: Someone's got to be a superpower. That sounds overwhelming. That sounds like a lot of different goals, a lot of different channels, a lot of different objectives to pull that together. How do you structure your team to be able to manage that range of channels, of thinking, of objectives, even just picking from the menu of options for a given campaign? JOSY: That's a good question because that has evolved so much over the last 16 years that we've been in business. Structure of the teams is that you have to have your media team as the overarching strategic group. Part of that media planning team is comms planning. They are setting up that framework. They're going to clients and saying, “Who do you think your audience is? Let's think about it in a media buying landscape. That might look a little bit differently because we have different targeting abilities and things like that. Let's set up that messaging framework that aligns the audience with the types of media, with the messaging, so that everything is aligned through the consumer journey.” We're thinking about how these people are consuming media. We're thinking about what messaging aligns with them, and that could look very different for the audience. So that comms planning team is really in charge of heading up that overall strategy. The media department as well leads overall strategy of the business; however, underneath that you have to have people that have traditional buying experience, that have the relationships with all of the different stations in the country. You have to have programmatic media buyers and social buyers that know all of the different platforms. So it's a really, really specialized skillset of people we had to hire along the way. Programmatic media is new to the scene – what, seven years ago now? To keep a media buying agency in-house and really have all the chops in-house takes very specialized people to hire. But you have to have that overarching media team that brings it all together. ROB: Talk about the relationship side a little bit, because that sounds almost counterintuitive. We're all used to just firing up our web browser, we go over to Facebook, we push some buttons, we have a campaign that lets us do the same thing. And then you're talking about TV, you're talking about radio – I'm sure you're even talking in some cases about print or detail newspaper – and needing a relationship to get that work done. What does the structure of that industry and those buys look like? It's a different animal, for sure. JOSY: Yeah. There's a lot of nuances to media planning, and a lot of it has to come down to budget and audience. Doing the research, getting back to that at the beginning part comes planning. To think about where your audience is living and how they're consuming media is Step #1. Step 2 is budget. What can you afford? You can't run nationally TV if you don't have budget north of $80 million. So you really have to start thinking about the most efficient way to spend your money, but also aligning with the audience's media consumption habits. That's the relationship that's really the most efficient. Then when you're talking about KPIs and goals and all of that, all of that has to align as well. ROB: That budget part I think brings us to an interesting intersection. It sounds like a lot of moving parts. It sounds like I have to have a big budget to play in this game. Maybe it helps, just for context, for us to understand and think through a particular client or two and what an overall campaign looks like for an example client. What kind of messages do you have, where, to facilitate that overall buyer journey? JOSY: A typical client could look like – I guess it would be pretty different for the budget ranges. We have some clients spending $10 million a year; we have some clients spending $100 million. That looks pretty different. The $100 million might have a lot of TV that's happening, linear TV. A lot of connected TV. A lot of video is great across all different audiences. Then you might have a layer of programmatic media, especially doing a lot of private marketplace deals or retargeting, and then 30% of the budget could be social, 20% could be search. It's broken up to support each other. There's a relationship between media that supports each other, and that comes through when you're doing analytics and attribution reporting, looking at the relationship. If you run a CTV campaign, you'd want to see your organic search and your paid search lift. Seeing that relationship between your paid channels is really, really important as well. ROB: That definitely helps us understand how you can keep eyes on it, because there's a lot at stake, and what a tremendous responsibility as well to be managing that sort of budget for a client. What is interesting to pull on here – you mentioned the relationships on that traditional media side. You've been doing this thing for a while. Take us back a little bit in time. What led you to start Media Matters in the first place, and what does that origin story look like? JOSY: It's always a funny one to me a little bit because I'd just moved to San Francisco from New York. I had no idea what I was going to do. I didn't even have an interview yet. A girlfriend of mine from college called me and she said, “I have this agency that you should go interview for. The boss is great.” I said, “Okay, let me go do that.” Went to go interview at Lowe & Partners, big holding company, and I had no idea what I was even doing there. I thought I was getting a job in creative. I had no idea what media was. I got the job. Not sure how, but I got the job. [laughs] That was my entrance into media. From there, I worked at the big holding companies where it's a very different life. It's great in your twenties. You work an unbelievable amount of hours, and I learned a lot, fast. But then I realized, “I'm 29.” I'd gotten married a few years earlier. I wanted to have children, and I couldn't see how that was going to be possible in the big agencies. I had met my business partner; we'd worked together at an agency for four years. We had a really, really good balance of our backgrounds and also a balance of the way we think about the world. We both talked about it for years. “How are we going to start our own agency? What is that going to look like and how are we going to build an agency that we want to work at and can work at, having families and children and all of that?” That was really the biggest impetus. ROB: Wow. What did those first few years look like? I think all statutes of limitations are over on this. Did you have some clients that were ready to follow you away from the holding company world? How did you scrap together those clients that made it make sense to make a run in those early years? JOSY: We had a two-pronged approach. One was to get our own clients and the other was to become a kind of a super-duo of other agencies. We worked for a really large agency and did all of their media buying and planning. That was a great way to get involved and get billings up, because we came into the business with nothing. We didn't have any money. We didn't raise any money. We didn't have any money from family. [laughs] We just had the shirts on our backs and that was it. So that was one approach, and the other one was getting our own clients. Our boss that we had worked together with at that agency, Roger Becker, ended up giving us one of his clients that I had worked on. He said, “You guys are starting your own agency. Have this client. You guys would be a great fit for them.” That was really kind. Really, it was the kindness of him getting us our first client and then the freelancing option. ROB: That's wonderful, and I think that is one of the stories of, overall, the marketing and agency industry. There's not a lot of room, I don't think, for sharp elbows. It all comes back around. All the people flow through the industry and you end up being tag teams more than enemies. One of those transitions that a lot of agencies struggle with from the early stage is getting from – a lot of agencies will come up and do those sub-deals for other people. A lot of agencies will get an occasional referral. But at some point you have to sharpen the tools and go out and hunt the elephants yourself. What did the development of that capability look like for you all? JOSY: Definitely developed through the years. I'll tell you, referrals have been our best friend. Very, very lucky to have wonderful people surround us, our entire experience. Really early on, I guess I wouldn't say it was that hard, but it was a little bit hard being a woman in business, starting your own business, back then. We were very careful early on to have our website, and we didn't really want too many pictures of us on the website. We wanted the website to look a little masculine. Our logo looked masculine at the time. So we hid that until the last minute, till we could show off and actually go to a meeting and show them we know what we're talking about. That was tricky at the beginning. But then once we got clients and built those relationships and they saw, I think most of all, that we were authentic and we were not salespeople and we really cared about their business and cared about media, that took hold. So I think the referral side of the new business development is what sustained us for the first 10 years. But after then, I think you get to a certain size and you have a lot of people on payroll. We have over 60 people. Even five years ago, we were at 20 people. You have to start thinking a little bit differently. If you want the larger clients, business development starts to look different. ROB: Is that something you're still largely handling? It can be one of those challenges you see sometimes; for a services organization to scale that business development away from the founders can be challenging. How have you handled either scaling yourself or getting someone else up to speed? JOSY: We made a decision early 2019 to start hiring a leadership team. It was a huge investment in general and a big leap of faith that this type of model could work, because we were so used to being the Josy and Taji show. We did that. We hired a leadership team, and they are phenomenal. It was 100% the right thing to do, and they are responsible for the new business development. We still show up for the pitches. We still are I guess the face of the agency, but they are the substance and what really leads all the new business development now. It's just been a wonderful transition to have more of a team in place for that. ROB: Some things are easy to hand off. If someone else wants to build a deck or something like that, have a nice day. Some parts of that transition, though, are a little bit harder to get your hands off. What are the pieces that were the last to leave your hands and your calendar, if you will? JOSY: Hmm. I think it's managing the decks, managing the flow of conversation. We were so used to being so closely tied to that; that was really hard to let go of, that control. But once we did, everything became better. [laughs] Better than it was before. I was just so thankful. ROB: It sounds like a relief. It sounds like an opportunity. Goodness, even what you're saying about going from 20 to 60 people requires a leadership team, but it's even a little bit messy no matter who you've got on the train. How do you think about scaling the organization, scaling culture? How have you been able to triple the company without breaking everything? JOSY: Yeah, and that tripling has happened in two years. [laughs] It's been a wild, wild ride. I think the honest truth is always be looking at your architecture. We went from a place where our agency – and I know, Rob, you have a background in analytics – we would have a client that would have one or two analytics people on their account. They would basically do everything. They'd pull all the data, they'd help with the data viz, they'd do all of that. Now we need three people to do that job, one, because the technical side of the business has gotten a lot more fragmented and hard to manage, but two, working on bigger clients, you have to have a different architecture to support them. Again, I go back to our leadership team really taking a close look at their departments and how they're set up. And we've had to reengineer that, sometimes in six months' time because that growth was so fast. Having that strong structure is what I think makes you build for scale. And being flexible in that structure, because it might have to change pretty quickly. ROB: Absolutely. That makes sense. It sounds like it's still probably a whole lot to think about, but at least you're able to think about that structure and not as much about the decks anymore. JOSY: Yeah, that's true. [laughs] ROB: Josy, as you reflect back on the journey so far, what are some key lessons that you have learned in building Media Matters that you might tell yourself to do a little bit differently if you were starting over? JOSY: One of the key pillars of our agency – I don't know if it's really a lesson, but I think it's a lesson to other business owners and agencies – is that true transparency and honesty will keep your business alive. Over the last 16 years, there's been a lot of ups and downs in the market, in our company, in our lives, and to weather those storms, the honesty, the transparency, but also what we were just talking about with the team structure, the flexibility and being able to adapt and evolve – and we've learned that in the past two years with COVID – to scale a business during COVID… [laughs] It's like a double whammy. I don't know if I would've done anything differently, but that would be my biggest advice for people starting out. Remain flexible. Don't be tied too closely to things, and be honest and transparent with yourself, your clients, and your employees. ROB: Absolutely. You didn't really harp on it too much, but the mix of media that you have been handling has changed remarkably over the life of the company. If you're starting something early to mid-2000s and up until now, you didn't have social media. How people even used pay-per-click was remarkably different. The quality of what you can buy and display and how you buy and display has changed dramatically. If all you were doing was calling up TV stations and newspapers today, you'd be – somewhere else, is what I'll say. You wouldn't have 60 people. JOSY: Out of business. [laughs] It's remarkable. Our industry is so cool. The second you think you have a grasp on it, the second you're wrong. It's about learning and moving quickly. It's exciting. ROB: For sure. Something I think you bring to the table that's also interesting is a lot of us are kind of new to this working from home and building a company remote, but you have been distributed for a little while. What are some of the key tools and key cadences and ceremonies that you have found to be essential to building the kind of company you want to build, but not to meet everyone in an office? JOSY: It was built out of stubbornness. My business partner, Taji, and I live 40 minutes from each other. I was not going to commute to Marin; she was not going to commute to the city. So it was really out of stubbornness that we were going to figure out how to work from home, and that's how it started. Then everyone we hired after that point wanted to work from home, loved to work from home, loved the culture of working from home. So for us to grow organically since 2005 till now as 100% remote always, and we're hiring people across the country, we've always had the true culture of loving working remote. I think that's different because a lot of people are trying to get used to working remote, or companies are struggling with hybrid. You have the “us versus them” mentality, the people in the office and the people at home and how they're going to solve for that. When you have a culture that's always been remote, it's a whole different world. I think the advent of video and Slack and all the collaboration tools have really helped that throughout the years, but also, especially pre-COVID, getting together in person and really spending the time with each other, whether it be a new business presentation or a client QBR, whatever it is. Getting together in person whenever we can, it lasts forever. It really does. ROB: What does getting together look like for you? Has it been visiting people in different places? Has it been getting everybody together in one place? How does that work? JOSY: It's hard because a lot of our employees have families, so getting everyone together in the same place – we'd have to plan it years in advance. [laughs] I would love to do something like that. But it usually looks like either regional hub parties – we might have one in New York, we might have one in LA, Seattle, wherever it is – and then people will drive in for those hub parties, or it looks like “Hey, we have a client QBR or new business. Please fly in” and we all get together. It's a little bit more fragmented instead of having a whole company thing, but it works. ROB: It's interesting to hear what different people are doing. Maybe the good news of where we all are is that we're going to hear a few more people with ideas, best practices, trying things and all of that. I'll certainly say it's been strange adding people to our team that I've never met. But it keeps on happening, and you're probably used to it. JOSY: Yeah, we are. It is really strange, especially when you meet people in person for the first time after working with them for years and not seeing them, and then they're taller than you thought or whatever. [laughs] ROB: I think that popped up in my LinkedIn feed the other day, an article on “You look taller on Zoom” or something like that. We know what that's like. Josy, when you're thinking about what's next for Media Matters Worldwide and the areas of marketing that you touch, what's coming up that you're excited about? JOSY: I think the whole media world is changing yet again. Deprecation of cookies, how we're thinking about personalization with our audiences, and just even the media types in general – a new social platform will be invented in the next year or so. So really thinking about how to make authentic – and I always go back to transparency and honesty, but it's true for brands, too – how to be truly authentic with your customers. I think that is the biggest struggle for brands, and they're missing the mark, some of them. But some of them are doing an amazing job, and that's because they're getting to the root and doing the research about their audiences and really figuring out what makes them different and what makes them excited and thrive. To me, figuring that piece of the puzzle out, having the research tools, having the analytics that pull it all together, and the artificial intelligence that's involved in advertising now – that to me is all really exciting. ROB: There's a lot going on there. How do you keep those data people and data tools together? It's a lot to wrangle. It's a lot to bring into one place. What's in your toolkit? JOSY: It is. We have an amazing analytics department, and that's our toolkit: their knowledge, their understanding of the market. But also obviously all the technology that goes along with that. And it looks different for every client because a lot of clients come to you with their technology that you have to integrate with. There's a lot to unpack with new client relationships and how to integrate their technology into yours, and really how to make things as seamless as possible. That's the tricky part. ROB: That's right. When you're talking about the budgets, I'm sure there's many a data lake that you have to feed into, many an internal analytics team that you're accountable to as well. JOSY: Exactly right. I love that you know “data lakes.” [laughs] ROB: [laughs] The data lake where you put the data and nothing ever comes out, maybe. JOSY: Very murky. ROB: Makes absolute sense. I think it's very relevant what you said there, Josy, about that transparency. In services, we have technology, we have tools, we have things that we're buying, but a lot of times what they're buying is people. I congratulate you also for being able to scale having what I would perhaps strangely say is buyable people. You have people on your team that clients can buy into that are not just the founders. That's a real challenge to get past. JOSY: Yeah, it's something that happens organically, and only with the vision of hindsight can you say “That was a great idea.” [laughs] ROB: [laughs] Josy, when people want to connect with you and connect with Media Matters, where should they go to find you? JOSY: They can find me on LinkedIn, or go to mediamattersww.com. ROB: WW. Worldwide, right? JOSY: Worldwide. ROB: Excellent. Josy, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. It's good to meet you in this remote way, like you talk to your team all the time. Someday we'll all get out of our houses again. We'll figure it out. JOSY: Yeah, I'd love to meet you. Thank you so much for having me today. ROB: Sounds good. Thank you so much, Josy. Bye. JOSY: Have a great day. Bye. ROB: Thank you for listening. The Marketing Agency Leadership Podcast is presented by Converge. Converge helps digital marketing agencies and brands automate their reporting so they can be more profitable, accurate, and responsive. To learn more about how Converge can automate your marketing reporting, email info@convergehq.com, or visit us on the web at convergehq.com.

Today, I have a very special guest, and fellow regular guest on The World According to Ben Stein Show; Robert Kendall of Indianapolis Radio Station 93WIBC. Rob dissects what  Critical Race Theory is, and how it is destroying the Public Education System in our country. I will admit, I know a little bit about CRT, but wanted to know more about it and how it is affecting our education system. Best way to learn more, bring on an expert who knows more than me!Miriam Weaver and Rob Kendall, or Mock ‘N Rob, are heard live in central Indiana Monday through Friday from 9 am to noon. Mock is co-founder of The Chicks On The Right, and Rob was the youngest elected official in Hendricks County when he won a seat on the Brownsburg Town Council. Every day they boil down a complicated world with passionate conversation and a wicked sense of humor. It's the stories you need to know more about and the stories other media hope you miss entirely. No topic is taboo and no public figure gets a pass! Topics Discussed:  * A bit about Rob and his super popular radio show Mock N' Rob * What exactly is Critical Race Theory (CRT)  * What are the origins of CRT * Why is considered so toxic in our Public Education System by many * Why is the teachers union waging a war on parents who dare ask what their children are being taught * Why is the teachers union and politicians denying they are teaching CRT, when they are  * Why teaching racism is not the answer to fighting racism * How do we combat some of the harmful things being taught to our children in schools today * How you can be a part of the solution Episode Resources: * Mock N' Rob Show: https://www.wibc.com/show/mock-n-rob/ * The World According to Ben Stein Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-world-according-to-ben-stein/id1540015480 * The Simple Life Website: https://www.thesimplelifenow.com  *Make sure to signup and be a member of The Simple Life Insider's Circle at: https://www.thesimplelifenow.com/the-simple-life/

In 2006, Angie and Will Scott, COO and CEO and co-founders, started Search Influence as a technically oriented search, social, and digital marketing agency, supported with tracking and attribution, and demonstrating value across very complex systems. Challenged at the beginning to find people with the needed skills, the agency outsourced its production work and developed an intensive training cycle and “robust” documentation for new hires. Will claims that, to this day, the agency's internal-facing superpower is training and education.  For the agency's first six years, SEO required seeding web content with relevant keywords. Will says that today's content has to be more nuanced . . . that SEO is now “more about meeting the customer where they are in the buyer's journey.” The agency concentrates on three verticals: midmarket healthcare (driving patient visits to individual practitioners on up to regional medical centers and, on the practice side, generating more leads), higher education, and tourism – market segments where the strategically complex buyer's journey is characterized by “multiple systems between a customer's first interaction with the brand and actually closing the sale.” When the real estate market crashed in 2008, two years after Hurricane Katrina destroyed New Orleans and decimated the region's small businesses, the national economy took a downturn. New Orleans was still rebuilding. Tourism was booming. Medical and – in particular, elective medical – remained strong. At a time when many companies were failing, Search Influence . . . grew. Unlike many agencies, Search Influence does not try to “do it all.” Outsourcing work that is not in its areas of concentration (SEO and paid advertising) and bringing on partners to provide services complementary to its quantitative efforts keeps the agency focused and nimble. Client websites are built by a cadre of website development partners. Early on, the agency built a process, an internal editorial team, and platforms to manage external freelancers who produced as much as 10,000 pieces of content monthly for a large direct-to-SMB digital marketing company. That creative management arm is still in place today. Angie questions whether it makes sense to try to develop “side skills” when the agency can so easily partner with “top talent.” With its practice built around content, the Search Influence developed an internal tool, UpScribed, that morphed into an external-facing platform. Through UpScribed, other marketers (including those who are not Influence clients) get direct access to the Search Influence content team. When Covid “shuttered” a lot of New Orleans's small businesses, the purposely overstaffed agency went to work for its clients . . . for free. That's taking a rare, long-range view on things. The same clients they keep afloat today will be tomorrow's even-more-dedicated customers. In this interview, Angie, who has an accounting background, talks about maintaining organizational balance. Will identifies a valuable list of free business development networks and ecosystems available to help small enterprises. They can be found on their agency's website at: searchinfluence.com or on their blog, Facebook, LinkedIn, or Instagram. Transcript Follows: ROB: Welcome to the Marketing Agency Leadership Podcast. I'm your host, Rob Kischuk, and I'm joined today by Angie and Will Scott. They are the COO and CEO and co-founders at Search Influence based in New Orleans, Louisiana. Welcome to the podcast, Angie and Will. ANGIE: Thank you. We're excited to be here. WILL: Thanks, Rob. ROB: It's a treat to have you here. We don't always get a little tag team like this, so that is an exciting change of pace. Why don't you start us off by telling us about Search Influence and what the agency's superpower is? WILL: Search Influence, Angie and I started it together more than 15 years ago. We started rather technical. I had come out of a position where I was very focused on SEO, so that's what we started with. Over the span of time, though, what we have decided our internal-facing superpower is, is training and education. Because we started in 2006, it wasn't really easy to go out and find folks who had the skills we needed, so we did do a lot of training. And to this day, we remain robust documentation and a training cycle for all new hires. Externally, we feel like the things that we do really well are still more in the technical realm. Our name is Search Influence, so search is a big part of where we spend our time. But we've also spent a lot of time thinking about tracking and attribution and how we actually demonstrate value across very complex systems. Our top verticals in which we work are healthcare, higher ed, and tourism. And in almost every one of those cases, there are multiple systems between a customer's first interaction with the brand and actually closing the sale, in whatever way that happens. ROB: I can certainly think that through. We're talking about healthcare – what part of healthcare? Obviously, it's a journey. We're not going to the ER here. What segment of the healthcare market is representative, would you say? WILL: Our focus has historically been on the midmarket, so think a handful of practitioners up to say a regional medical center. Very much about driving patient visits, and on the practice side, more leads. ROB: This is I'm coming to an area, I'm trying to figure out where I should go, or it might have an existing doctor and it's an evolution over time of where my loyalty is going to go. There's a journey there. There's a journey in travel. All of that makes sense. I can certainly see – you talked about 2006; there was I would say a lot of science around SEO, and it has evolved into art and science, to an extent. How have you thought about evolving your team and the documentation as there has become more of – I would almost say Google and the search engines have moved more towards searcher satisfaction with what they found, which is kind of an art. WILL: Yeah, in the early days, say 2006 through probably 2012-2013, it was easier to be a little more heavy-handed, to think about content primarily as a vehicle for keywords to correlate to what people were searching for. I think in the time since then, we and any company that tries to practice SEO in a serious way have learned that the content actually has to be more about meeting the customer where they are in the buyer's journey. And that's a much more nuanced piece of content than one where you're trying to have an appropriate keyword density and blah, blah, blah, and highly targeted internal links and that kind of thing. ROB: Right on. You started in 2006; a few years in, we hit a weird economic spot and the market of search was rotating at that time as well. How did you think through and evolve through that transition to emerge healthy on the other side? Maybe it was always healthy to an extent, but I don't know. The tourism thing was probably down a little bit if you were in that market at the time. WILL: New Orleans is interesting on a lot of levels. In 2008, when everybody else was suffering from the real estate market crash, we were booming because it was two years after Katrina. Where everybody else was seeing people drop the keys off at their mortgagor and walk away, we were still in a heavy rebuilding phase. Also, with the focus on medical, particularly elective medical – that was really a heavy piece for us at that time – there wasn't much of a downturn. We actually grew through that recession. ANGIE: Right. Our largest focus, though, at that point was medical. We were – I don't know, lucky or saw something coming, I don't know. WILL: I prefer brilliant. [laughs] ANGIE: [laughs] We almost felt bad at that time, I remember. It's like when your baby is sleeping through the night and no one else's is and you don't want to say that they are. I think we would talk about if somebody asked, but we just didn't talk about it because we felt bad. It was like, “We're growing.”  ROB: And that's been an echo for this year for a lot of people. This past year, this COVID, 15-16 months now, some people – restaurant industry, they're just scrapping to get by. A few restaurants figured out how to nail takeout and delivery, and they're doing better than ever. And then some folks in the digital realm are just doing great, growing. But it's hard to talk about. WILL: Totally. Sadly, we are not among them, because we did have a bunch of revenue in tourism and attractions leading into COVID. ANGIE: But they're starting to come back as the recovery comes. WILL: Yeah. And we did this thing where because we were intentionally overstaffed – we didn't cut nearly as much as we should have if we were trying to meet revenue. So we had staff and we reached out to our customers who were paused because of budget, and we created this thing – our core values spell CHARGE. We marketed it as the “Recharged Fund.” We put our team to work for free for those clients who were effectively shuttered because of the pandemic. ROB: That's a pretty bold move, and I wonder, when you first started doing that, how long did you think it was going to be before things echoed back, and when did you start wondering again? WILL: A handful of weeks. [laughs] ANGIE: Like everyone else. WILL: I was actually out of town and Angie was responsible for shutting the office down on March 13th. I don't think at any time until many, many weeks later we thought that it was going to be more than a handful of weeks that we were out of the office. ROB: That was a rude awakening for a lot of us. “Oh wait, this basement setup I'm in? This is a lifestyle.” That's when I went back to the office and I grabbed some tables and chairs and I said, “Okay, this is going to be for real. I'm bringing home a screen, I'm bringing home anything I want to see for the next few months.” ANGIE: Right. I think everybody had that happen. We did the same thing. We plotted out a very careful schedule for everybody to be able to come one by one and meet me at the office to get any equipment or furniture or anything that they needed so that they could set up some sort of workspace once you realized this may be life. [laughs] ROB: If we rewind a little bit, we mentioned earlier that you are co-founders. Talk about the journey that let you both into a place at the same time where you're like, “Hey, let's start Search Influence and drop whatever we were doing before.” What did that jump look like? WILL: At that time, we had come from working together – we actually met at work, which is I think part of what makes it so effective for us. But what happened was we found ourselves at the beginning of 2006 still in that Katrina hangover, if you will. I had actually just exited another company, and we were looking for what we were going to do next. We had the good fortune that Angie and I don't have the same skillsets. Angie is a businessperson. She has a degree in accounting and has spent her whole career in that side of the businesses, whereas I, oddly enough, have a degree in architecture, but I've spent my whole adult career on the more creative and development side. We saw this opportunity, especially post-Katrina, that there were a lot of small businesses that were decimated. It actually wasn't too much unlike right now, except that the infrastructure didn't exist for these companies to go online as they had to after Katrina. Angie's family runs a chiropractic clinic, and we saw them as sort of a prototype. They had been located in a place called Chalmette. They were the Chalmette Chiropractic Clinic. Chalmette is a New Orleans suburb that you really don't hear enough about in the context of Katrina, but it flooded from two directions, and one of those directions came through an oil field. So it wasn't just wet; it was wet and oily. We really had to restart their business online. For a little while, the Chalmette Chiropractic Clinic was practicing out of our garage. And then, because it was 2006, we were able to build their brand rather quickly online, rebuilding them as New Orleans Chiropractic and ultimately the Maple Street Chiropractic Clinic. ANGIE: And making sure that their patients could find them. At that point in time, it wasn't just about cellphone service and so forth. People were searching online for where did they go, where did they set back up. Thankfully, Will had exited; I still had my current role, an accounting and HR role at a business, so we were able to not only have the time, because I had moved into consulting, but also have the funds and also the time to really get it going and truly focus on the business between both of us. I think we were lucky and we also had an agreement that we would only start a business that didn't require going out and finding investors or getting loans. So we were able to get it going just between the two of us and devote everything we had to it. ROB: What sort of business were you working in together when you met? WILL: That business morphed over the time that we were there. It was originally a website business, and then we moved into online Yellow Pages. You remember Yellow Pages, right? ROB: I do. I sure do. WILL: We actually put them online so that they looked like the book, which was –  ANGIE: Weird. [laughs] ROB: It reminds me a little bit – I had a friend in the agency business who exited his agency, and what they used to do was take the corporate earnings reports and he would put them on CD-ROMs and make it look just like the real thing, but on a CD-ROM and maybe a little bit interactive. He built a good business of it. So you can never underestimate what that looks like. You can see how that would lead adjacently, then, to the search side where you would have some of those technical chops of how to do that right. I can see the transition there, for sure. ANGIE: Right. WILL: It really was. I remember having a conversation with a guy who was at Yellow Pages. It was shortly after I'd exited that business and I was thinking about maybe going to work for them, and I said to him, “What's your biggest priority for these phonebooks?” He said, “Anti-scraping technology.” He turned it around and asked me the same question: “What would be your biggest priority?” I said, “Making our data as accessible to Google as humanly possible.” So clearly, I didn't get that job. ROB: Yeah, there's a little bit of a strategy delta there. But somehow those businesses managed to wander around. I knew some folks here a few years ago who were working for YP.com, which is YellowPages.com. I don't know if they're in there selling to car dealerships and TV stations or what they're doing, but those businesses remain around. There was obviously at some point a step where it made sense, Angie, for you to join full-time as well. What did it look like when you started growing the team? Who did you need to join? At some point I'm sure it came from “We're doing this, we're not taking investors, we're not taking on debt” to “Hey, this is kind of a good business. We can grow it.” ANGIE: Right. If I had to guess, looking back, I maybe spent six more months consulting within the other company. Having two of us full-time devoted to it was not necessary when you only had – we weren't even employees; we weren't even getting paid. So once we started having employees, you start to have to build all the processes, the handbook, the payroll. I was bookkeeping sitting at night for an hour, no big deal, super easy. But once we started having employees and growing that side of the business, that's really when I think it took over for me. Our first employee was actually somebody who stepped in and worked with Will really closely on what we now would look back and probably call account management, because it was strategy, and then we had – at the time we were outsourcing all of our production work. They would basically strategize with our production teams outside of the company. ROB: Got it. That's an interesting little strategy there. Different people still recommend, even at scale, having different percentages of the work go outside the firm and then have some burstable capacity outside of there. I think probably one part of your journey where you've had to make a lot of decisions is what to add and what not to add. You mentioned you're in three verticals now, but you could be in 12 or 20, and there's probably some services you've added over time and some you haven't. How have you navigated that decision of “We're going to add this line of service; we're not going to add this line of service. We're going to add this vertical; we're not going to add this vertical”? How have you navigated the temptation to do everything? WILL: I think it was about 10 years ago that I coined the phrase, “If we really want to lose money, we'll take a website client.” The thing is, there's a very different skillset there. What we do instead is we have partners that we work with to build websites at different scales for different clients if they need them. But the things that we do really, really well are much more quantitative. We also developed a practice around content, so much so that we built an internal tool that we ultimately turned into an external-facing tool that we call UpScribed. It's a platform that other marketers can use to have direct access to our content team. We had a period in time where we were the backend for a company that has been acquired – and they may still have the same name – Yodel, who was one of the big direct to SMB digital marketing companies probably between 2007 and 2013-2014. We were doing as much as 10,000 pieces of content a month for them. ROB: Wow. WILL: As you can imagine, we didn't employ the writers and editorial staff to do all of that, so we built a process where we had an internal editorial team and platforms to manage external freelancers for the actual creative of that. ANGIE: That we will use today. WILL: Yeah, that we still use today. And UpScribed has clients using it external to Search Influence as well. ANGIE: Because it turns out that is an agency problem. [laughs] Which is probably not a surprise to anyone. I think right now – it's funny; I was actually chuckling inside my head that you maybe were a fly on the wall in the last few weeks, because we've been discussing literally writing out the services that we are going to spend all of our focus and time on. We do quarterly planning, we do annual planning. These are the services that we should be planning around, and that's SEO and paid search. Sorry, SEO and paid advertising. I have to get my words right. Then those other services that we do still offer, like website builds and PR and so forth, we would find really good partners if we don't already have them. A lot of it we already have a great partner for. And to your point of what things we outsource, we outsource and partner with different people who are really good at that stuff. There's people out there who are very good at video production. Why would we build that? That would be silly, because there's some really great video production companies out there that we can use, and use their strengths. WILL: And it turns out that somewhere in the last decade, people have forgotten how to do SEO. I think as everybody's gotten on the whole inbound content marketing bandwagon, we've forgotten the basic blocking and tackling of SEO. Oftentimes, we'll come across a site that has great content that's completely inaccessible to search. I think of myself as having grown up in SEO because back in 1999, we were using GoTo.com to try to figure out what keywords we were going to stuff into the metatags. So really, for us, when we think of the things that we've trained our team on historically and where we feel like we're adding a lot of value, it's in those places that are technical and quantitative and ultimately that we're able to demonstrate very good return on those investments because of that tactical focus. ROB: Has there ever been a service area that helped teach you some of these lessons? Like you dabbled in it and you realized – maybe it was websites, maybe there was something else. Sometimes our eyes get a little bit big for our appetites and we say, “Oh sure, let's do that too,” and then we get our hand smacked one way or another. ANGIE: I think maybe it wasn't services and it was more so certain clients, probably, that led us down “Yeah, we can figure out cross-domain tracking for this and that,” and then you get into it and you're like, whoa, this was a much bigger thing than we thought it was. But then you're there and you've got to figure it out. So I think it was probably more the client side that drove us down some of these more technical areas. ROB: That makes sense. If we broaden that a little bit, what are some bigger picture lessons you've learned along the way that if you were picking up the phone to yourself 15 years ago, you'd be like, “Hey, you're going to want to do this. Don't do that. Do this differently”? WILL: This is one of those things – and I think time and maturity allow you to really look at these things in the right way. Almost all of those lessons helped us to better understand the kind of company that we want to be. A great example is we spent about five years with a single reseller representing way too much of our business. The kind of work that they needed was much more fulfillment, much more high throughput work, and it was not as satisfying for our team to execute on. It didn't make for the greatest work environment for some of our team for a while. And then after all that, they decided to take that business in-house, which meant that they were taking a really big chunk of our revenue with them. I think that was a really good lesson learned. When you find yourself with too much concentration in one customer, you've really got to get busy making sure that you're doing the business development work that makes them not so monolithic. I think anybody who's ever worked with customers knows, when a customer comes to you and says, “Hey, I want to give you five times as much money,” you don't say, “Hey, sorry, we can't take that because that would screw up our customer concentration.” ANGIE: Right, because a lot of people do talk about that. They say, “Don't let a single customer get to X percentage of your revenue.” It's like, don't let them? So, say no? Who's going to do that? No one's going to do that. So really, the answer is not that. It's when they offer that, you go and you find more of that in other clients. ROB: Notoriously – I'm here in Atlanta, and one of the bigger agencies here for a good while has been Moxie, and they're owned in a holding company now. But when they were acquired, at least if the street reports are to be believed, they had 200 or 300 people and 70% of their business was Verizon. Every time a new iPhone launched, they had to do all the in-store collateral, just fire drill. Are you going to say no to that? You've got 150 people you can put on the payroll to serve this client. You figure out how to grow out of it. I think what is often the case with some of these reseller, these channel relationships, these subcontract relationships, is sometimes they're selling a deal that you haven't quite figured out how to sell yet. Was that your experience? Or did their business look a lot like business you were bringing in yourself? WILL: It actually didn't look like the business we were bringing in ourselves. In fact, we found ourselves with two account management teams, one that was serving our direct clients and one that was serving this reseller. And there were a couple of other smaller resellers as well, and their lived experience day to day was very different, and their understanding of the work that we did also was very different. So it was hard to move somebody from that partner account management team to the direct account management team or vice versa and have them be Day 1 ready. ANGIE: The reseller was selling packages because you could sell them – you didn't have to understand everything. If you have a large sales team, it is much easier to hand them a package that says, “This is what you're getting on this month in Month 2, 3, 4, 5, 6,” whatever it is. It was the same work over and over, whereas our direct clients were much more about the marketing funnel and creativity and so forth. ROB: So even some of those clients may have been – would it be fair to say they were a little bit smaller where the direct engagement might not make sense? Was there a delta in deal size, or was it just a matter of the relationship? WILL: I think generally speaking, those that were coming in through our reseller partners were smaller than we would've approached directly. ANGIE: Yes. WILL: They were much more true SMB. The other thing that we talk about as an opportunity and that we try to tell new business owners about when we encounter them is that we didn't know how many services were available for small businesses when we started this up. Things like SBA's Small Business Development Center and all of the different networks and ecosystems. We literally had a meeting with one of those organizations, the local big entrepreneur ecosystem entity, and we sat down with them and we were like, “Hey, you guys are doing great things here. We'd love to get engaged. How can you help us out?” As we were talking to them, they started asking us questions like, “How many people do you have? How much revenue do you have?” At the end of the conversation, they were like, “You seem like the kind of people who could really help us out.” ROB: [laughs] Wow. WILL: Yeah. Not the plan. But I think there are so many of those services available that smaller entrepreneurs who are coming up in that classic startup ecosystem don't really have a sense of. ROB: What are a couple more of those that you would say someone should at least take a look at and not miss out on? Maybe New Orleans driven, maybe more national in scope. What should people pay attention to? ANGIE: Later on – probably much later on, I went through the 10,000 Small Businesses program, I guess you would call it. It's put on by Goldman Sachs, and I would say that's a really good one. And it is everywhere. They're all over the place. They do a really great job of walking through – you don't have to go there with questions. They assume you don't know anything and you're going to learn it in the classes. So that's a really good one. WILL: I was going to say we have a number of purpose-driven organizations that I think are opportunities as well. There's one called the Good Work Network that tends to work mostly with smaller businesses primarily in marginalized areas, and I'm sure that there are sort of sisters around the country. There's one called Vet Launch, which is focused specifically on veteran entrepreneurs. I would say that there are going to be dozens of these, and if you can find one that you can plug in consistent with their affinity, the resources are going to be invaluable. ROB: That's a great thought, to think about plugging into the affinity. It creates that extra link. Sometimes it's hard to ask for help, it's hard to ask for mentors, it's hard to ask for advice. Sometimes that linkage can be a relationship you incubate over time, but it sounds like a great shortcut you're talking about there, about navigating through a shared interest. That's a really great thought there. Angie, Will, I'm sure when people want to find Search Influence, I'm sure they can search for you and find you pretty quickly. But if people want to connect to you, how else should they go about finding you, connecting with you, and keeping track of what's next for Search Influence? WILL: Our website, searchinfluence.com, and our blog are really great places to start. We are pretty active as a company on Facebook and LinkedIn, and Instagram as well. Those are all great places to connect with us. ROB: It's not to be missed. LinkedIn in some ways seems to continue in effectiveness, even though – you probably have this worse than I do – the random connections. I don't know how you handle them. I get a lot more than I'd like to get, I'll put it that way. WILL: What's funny is that I've been getting a lot of them – a lot of my random connections lately have actually been somewhat relevant. So if I do choose to connect with folks, I'll say, “Hey, I connected with you because I'm interested in this thing that's in your bio. I'm not a buyer today, but I wanted to have you in my list of connections.” ROB: Nice. WILL: Especially when you're working B2B. When we're approaching folks who work in higher ed or who work in hospitals and health systems, they're on LinkedIn and they're paying attention. So from a cold outreach to start a conversation perspective, I find LinkedIn to be the most effective. ROB: Makes so much sense. Angie, Will, congratulations on building, growing, sustaining a meaningful business through making it through some challenging times and some good ones. Thank you for sharing your journey with us. It's really helpful. I think it's motivating, and there's great little tips all along the way to learn from. Thank you so much for sharing. ANGIE: Yes, thank you for having us. WILL: Yeah, Rob, thanks for having us on. I was glad to be introduced to your podcast because in prepping for this, I came across a number of episodes that I thought were really useful. ROB: Well, thank you. We all need to get outside our head sometimes, and that's part of it as well. Thanks for coming on. Be well. ANGIE: Thank you. ROB: Bye. Thank you for listening. The Marketing Agency Leadership Podcast is presented by Converge. Converge helps digital marketing agencies and brands automate their reporting so they can be more profitable, accurate, and responsive. To learn more about how Converge can automate your marketing reporting, email info@convergehq.com, or visit us on the web at convergehq.com.

Mary Patrick is CEO and Managing Partner at Jasculca Terman (JT) Strategic Communications, a 40-year-old public affairs firm that provides issue education and crisis management and builds support for its clients' controversial legislative, regulatory, and public policy issues.  Over the past few years, crisis management has been close to 50% of the firm's business. “Topping the list” over this past year were Covid and social issues, but the agency's scope is broad: workforce and labor issues, leadership misconduct, immigration, environment, non-Covid healthcare, protest and rally management, and contentious leadership changes . . . anything where there is controversy or two or more sides to a story. Organizations might engage JT at any time – when they want to plan ahead to avert potential problems, when they know something is coming and want to put the key pieces in place to manage it, or . . . when the news chopper is overhead and news media are banging on the door. Mary believes storytelling is the most important tool in JT's arsenal. She advises organizations to be the first to tell their stories. Even if news is “bad,” being first to talk about it provides the opportunity to better define your narrative, bring forth your mission, present your position, and paint the picture, making it “resonant and memorable.” Story “examples” showing the human-interest side of an issue are most compelling. “People remember how an issue impacts a person or a family, or I guess even the world,” she says. JT comes with a full toolbox and creates for its clients a lot of videos (some even award-winning), infographics, animations, social posts on all platforms, vignettes, testimonials. and talking points. Stories are also communicated directly in person, through Zoom, and in written material.  The firm's major events division brings people together with turnkey, end-to-end solutions – from booking venues and speakers, planning breakout sessions, and providing all levels of seamless, onsite technical support. Covid and “going virtual” meant the firm had to add an additional technological layer. Does the client need their event to be interactive? How will people raise a hand, ask a question, put things in the chat? What needs to be done to keep “zoomed out” audiences interested and engaged? The most challenging PR question? What can an organization do when things have gone catastrophically bad and the story has gotten really big? Who should the organization contact directly to help people understand its perspective, its point of view, the scope of the issue, and what the organization is doing about it? When is “strategic silence” appropriate?  Handling this kind of crisis is where JT excels. Mary says there are times when mistakes have been made or things have gone bad for an individual or organization, and the entity (or JT on its behalf) has to own the responsibility, apologize, and tell people what will be done to correct the situation. . . if it wants to rebuild trust and credibility. “You can never say that it'll never happen again,” Mary warns. Mary can be reached on the Jasculca Terman website at JTPR.com. Transcript Follows: ROB: Welcome to the Marketing Agency Leadership Podcast. I'm your host, Rob Kischuk, and I am joined today by Mary Patrick, who is the CEO and Managing Partner at Jasculca Terman Strategic Communications based in Chicago, Illinois. Welcome to the podcast, Mary. MARY: Thanks, Rob. ROB: It's good to have you here. Why don't you start off with a little bit of an introduction of Jasculca Terman and the focus of the firm? Where do you all excel?  MARY: Sure. Jasculca Terman Strategic Communications – and we'll make it easy for everybody; we typically call ourselves JT – JT was founded by Rick Jasculca and Jim Terman 40 years ago this year. We're a public affairs firm, which means we focus on issues like legislative, regulatory, public policy, areas where there might be controversy or two sides. We do a lot of educating around issues, and we do a lot of crisis management work. I would say over the last few years, crisis management has been at least 50%, maybe more, of our business. ROB: Wow. MARY: Big picture, to describe us, I would say what our superpower is, what we're great at, is storytelling. That's how we look at the world. Storytelling in all its forms and all its situations. You can imagine, for instance, over the last year, if we are doing a lot of crisis management work, we've been working on COVID in all its iterations. We've had a lot of social justice issues that our clients are managing and trying to communicate around. Those currently top the list, but we have several crisis projects that don't touch either of those issues – things like workforce and labor issues, maybe misconduct by a leader. We've done a lot of work in the immigration space, in the environment, in other aspects of healthcare besides COVID. We've helped people handle protests and rallies and controversial leadership changes and a whole lot more. But storytelling is really where we excel, and we look at it, honestly, as defining the narrative on your terms. It's about bringing your mission, your position to life and really painting a picture, making it resonant and memorable. And we think examples really make a difference, especially the human interest side of an issue or what you're trying to do. Those are the most compelling. Those are the most connecting. Those are the things people remember: how an issue impacts a person or a family, or I guess even the world. And we tell those stories through a variety of vehicles. We have an in-house creative director and video producer, so we produce a lot of videos – some even award-winning. We use infographics and animations. We do social posts on all different platforms. We create vignettes and testimonials and talking points. We have a major events division, and we see that as a really important companion in terms of our public affairs work bringing people together. And of course, that has pivoted to also doing actually quite a few virtual events in the last year and a half. The other way we tell stories is directly in person or through Zoom, and of course, with the written word. We obviously put a lot of stock in what we write and those kinds of materials. ROB: Dig in a little bit on – during normal times, and maybe coming up, what does an event that you're involved in, that JT puts on, look like? What's an example or a big picture, at least, of who it's for, who comes to it, that kind of thing? MARY: We're working on a major event right now for a major not-for-profit that focuses on women's issues. They've done this for years in person, and it draws 2,000 people. The issues around missing that level of networking and how we bring that back through a virtual lens – they have a major speaker who I can't share yet, but they have a major speaker who we will bring in via satellite. There will be breakout rooms so people can have a little bit of that experience of networking with each other. We helped them produce some video vignettes around the women who have received grants through this organization for the amazing work they're doing in a variety of spaces. We'll package that all – our team works with a variety of platforms, depending on a client's needs. Do we need an event to be interactive? Are there places where people will be able to raise a hand, ask a question, put things in the chat? All those aspects are considered as we pull these things together. And what we've discovered in the many events that we've been doing over the last 16 months during COVID is that interaction is important. Visuals are important. Getting a lot of variety, so you've got some live components and then you also have some prerecorded components. Making it as interesting as possible for people who are experiencing Zoom fatigue at best. ROB: Got it. It really is turnkey, end-to-end. In normal times you're talking about everything from booking a venue, booking speakers, planning for breakout sessions in reality. It sounds like a turnkey, end-to-end, and very complicated situation. And then to also have to turn around and evolve that online while you're at it. MARY: Exactly. I think it's all about asking the right questions and really thinking about what it is our client is trying to accomplish with an event and managing all the logistics that go into pulling that together seamlessly, smoothly, and mainly, if we do our job right, then you're just troubleshooting the live aspects. And putting the technology into the middle of it in the last 16 months, there's an extra level of holding our breath a little bit. [laughs] But we've got some terrific people in-house who have really pivoted very well, and our event business is as strong as it's ever been, which has been in some respects a surprise to me. ROB: I'm sure when we dig into the crisis side a little bit, that seems like every day could be a fresh and new surprise and an opportunity to jump in. What does the life cycle of a crisis look like for you? MARY: Everyone is different, and people bring you in at different times. We have actually worked with clients who want to plan ahead, which we think is a great idea. That's even before the beginning of a crisis, when a client is thinking about their potential vulnerabilities and what they want to put in place so that they wouldn't have to scramble at the last minute. We've come in at that time. We've come in when someone knows something is coming and they're anticipating it and they want to plan for the real event and put all the key pieces in place. We've been called when the news chopper is overhead or the media is already knocking on the online door, asking the client for comment or pointing out the tough issues. And we've also been called when a client had thought or hoped that they could manage it internally, and a couple days into it they realize that they really could use some outside expertise. There are some wonderful, wonderful organizations, corporations, that have terrific communications staff, but a lot of the communications staff doesn't have crisis experience. So we often work hand in hand with an in-house communications team, helping them manage the crisis with the expertise that we can bring to the table. And it starts with asking all the right questions and thinking about scope and scale and audiences and who we can try to get to, to share your story before things get really big in the media. If things have already gotten big in the media, who do we need to reach out to directly to help make sure people understand your perspective, your point of view, the actual scope of the issue, and especially what you're doing about it. There are absolutely times when things have gone bad for someone, or mistakes are made, and you have to step up and own them. You have to step up and apologize for them. If you want to build back trust and credibility, you have to tell people what you're going to do. You can never say that it'll never happen again. ROB: [laughs] Can we highlight that and tell people that? Because some people want you to guarantee it will never happen again. MARY: Right. We're very careful about how we talk about that. But we do help a client put as many things in place to hopefully avoid it happening again. ROB: I think in any firm, there's a potential for conflicts between individual people on the team and the clients. You can imagine a marketing firm where someone's an ethical vegetarian; they have to market for a hamburger chain. These things happen. But here in your world, where you're talking about things where, as you say, stuff is out in the media, it seems to an extent unavoidable that your team and you – bringing your whole self to work – will have feelings about a topic that might be in tension with a client. How do you think about that / handle that? Does it impact who gets work on what client? MARY: Generally, I think everyone who works at JT believes in this idea that everyone should have a chance to tell their story. JT is 40 years old; I've been there for 36 of those 40 years, and in those 36 years, I've only been part of probably two experiences – and it wasn't even me – where we were working on issues that people either had a strong feeling that they could not represent a client as well, or they'd had a personal experience that made them feel they could not tell the story for the client just based on what the client was dealing with. But that's two experiences in 36 years. ROB: It resonates with the similar role of – not to say that someone's charged with a crime, but the defense attorney and the public defender. There is a right to being represented fairly and accurately. You did reference – I think it's interesting – that you've been with the firm 36 out of the 40 years. It's notable that you are not Jasculca or Terman, but you are the CEO and managing partner. How did you come to be involved? And how did you end up in charge? MARY: When I got out of college – I studied PR and communications at Miami University, and I thought as I was studying it that what I really wanted to do is agency work. I sort of thought that was the only path. Literally maybe a month before I got out of school, I went to some presentation or lecture where someone was talking about not-for-profit PR. It opened my eyes. I started to realize that agencies aren't the only place to practice; there are people who do PR for hospitals, for universities, for not-for-profits. I decided that what really interested me was the not-for-profit side. So when I moved to Chicago – and this will tell you how very, very old I am – I literally went to the library to look up all the not-for-profits that had headquarters in Chicago. I sent them my letters and I pitched them and called them, and my first job was with the American Red Cross in their Midwest chapter downtown. In my first year of being there as the Public Affairs Blood Services Specialist, the AIDS crisis hit. You can imagine what sort of baptism by fire that was for a 23-year-old fresh out of college, dealing suddenly with the safety and sanctity of the volunteer blood supply as it related to AIDS. I ended up doing lots of interviews and essentially learning, by being in it, how a crisis works. Our job was to keep people continuing to voluntarily donate their blood, because it very, very, very much matters in terms of the health of the world. And people were afraid. AIDS was so linked to needles and so linked to blood. So that was my first taste of this issues management piece, and I really found that I liked it a lot. So when I was thinking about a next step, I looked at agencies that were smaller and that might have some sort of political or cause-related path. I honestly, truly lucked into JT in its – I guess it wouldn't be infancy. In its toddlership. It was four years old. It was smaller then. I really got the ability to grow and then eventually help shape the agency over the years. And I think what keeps people there – I'm not the only one with such longevity. We have a number of people at our firm that have been there for 20 years or more. And its' honestly because of two major things. One is the people at JT, who are incredible and brilliant and strategic and passionate and compassionate. I think that's what really makes the firm. And secondly the variety of issues. As you said, sometimes you don't know what you're doing day to day. That's been 36 years for me. I mean, I think I know some days, but there's going to be a twist or a turn, or there's going to be something that comes up, a new issue to manage or a new way that someone has impacted what you're working on, and you need to address it. That variety, that adrenaline, and the people are what keeps us there. ROB: What did that transition look like from the original partners to – it seems like they're probably less involved now than they were initially. How did that manifest itself? MARY: Interestingly, that's not true. Most people assume that, and in fact, when my announcement went out when I became the CEO, we made sure that front and center, people knew that Rick and Jim weren't going anywhere, not even partially. They remain heavily, integrally involved. I've had a lot of people outside of the firm say, “Oh my God, don't you wish you could get those guys out of there?” And I don't wish that at all. They're fantastic and smart and supportive, and have been very, very good to me in terms of letting me lead and stepping back from those issues, but still with a great passion and drive to do the work. It's been a really wonderful experience for me. I've worked at every level of the firm, and as – the partners would probably kill me for saying this, but once they turned 70, they really felt like they needed to take a look at what was next and how the firm should be led going forward. So I've been the CEO and managing partner for a little over three years. ROB: That is excellent. Thank you for clarifying. Congratulations. It reminds me, actually, in some ways of an agency I know of in Atlanta called Nebo. These two guys started it together, and they had someone who came up through the business, and they put this awesome woman in charge as their president even though she didn't start the thing. I think they have benefitted from it, probably much as you have. And not for nothing, I think it has also really helped their entire organization to feel like they have a little bit more balanced leadership and it's not just two guys running the show. There's a woman in power all the way up to the top. MARY: I think that's true, and I think both J and T have always been very supportive of growing people internally. And again, that's why people stay as long as they have. I can't honestly think of a time in the recent past where we brought someone in at a high level. Our high level people are homegrown. And even when we're hiring an AE, it usually comes from our intern pool. When we're adding to the team, it's usually folks that have done some work with us. In the past, one of our more recent hires was an intern with us, went off and did something else for a couple years, and came back. We didn't have a job for her at the time when her internship was completed, but when we did, there she was. It's that training and that passion and, again, working with a group of people that really support each other and have the clients' best interest at heart. ROB: Got it. Mary, as you reflect on that journey, your past few years particularly in charge, but certainly all along the way, I'm sure it's been a journey of growth. What are some things you have learned in leading JT – some lessons you might've done differently if you were starting over today? MARY: I've given that a little bit of thought. There's so many things I've learned over the years – mainly, again, from my wonderful colleagues at JT, and often from clients and the issues that they entrust to us. Frankly, I say this all the time, but I actually mean it. It's true and authentic that I'm still learning every day, because the issues we manage and the crises we work on really test our skill, can often surprise you and can certainly stretch those strategic muscles. Obviously, over the years, social media has really changed the practice, often for the better but sometimes not so much. We're dealing with lots of issues right now that start in social media, and it's misinformation. In the past, you didn't have that as much because news was supposed to be vetted. People had a news cycle to confirm or test information. Those are newer and different challenges. The shrinking traditional newsrooms play a big role in how we approach media. The whole “it bleeds, it leads” mentality and “the first to get the scandal out there” has made our jobs different and more difficult. I guess one very key learning which is fundamental – I hope I grasped it from the beginning, but I may not have – is this idea of telling your story first. Even if it's bad. Your ability to shape and control the narrative is very important. So whenever you can, as much as you can, playing offense rather than defense is important. Another tried and true colloquialism around the office is that trouble fills a vacuum. We've learned and we've seen with our clients that if they put their head down and pretend something's not there, then someone else is going to define the story for them, and it's not going to be, generally, the way you want it to be. So again, getting out there first and defining things. And then a mistake that I feel like I made that I learned a lot from, and I thus far have not made it again – I worked on a project once where I never met the CEO, who was ultimately going to be the main speaker at a press conference that we were pulling together. Then the press conference that we had planned got overrun by protestors. It was a fairly controversial issue that was going to be shared. The mayor of Chicago at the time was going to be part of our press conference, and these protestors really took over at our venue. When that happened, I had no credibility with the leader because honestly, I'd never met her. So in a time of great turmoil and when there was a need for a lot of debate and conversation and decisions, she didn't trust me because she didn't know me. I mean, how could she, right? And so I vowed that I would never let that happen again, and it hasn't. ROB: That's such a good point, too: the value of relationship with clients, the value of investing, the value of having that connection. You do highlight something that plays very much also into the future of PR and marketing as well. I think it used to be, to an extent – and you know better than I do – most controversies that got any legs had some degree of substance to them. It almost seems like now, there are secret rooms on the internet where people just make up stuff for fun and see what sticks. Do you feel like that's an actual trend? Is that something you think is growing or shrinking, or is maybe overblown? MARY: Oh, absolutely. I don't know how to judge these back room making-up-things, but I will say that we have managed a number of issues that started with literally completely false information. Just completely false. And because it struck a chord or because people wanted to believe it or something, or God help you, goes viral, it puts a company or an organization or a person in a very, very difficult place. We're often balancing issues of you don't want to give something credibility by having your organization enter into the social media fray, but how far does it go before you have to do something? We actually call it strategic silence. Often, we're going back and forth with boards of an organization, for instance, who are like, “Oh my gosh, why are we not fixing this? Why are we not correcting this?” But you can actually elevate an issue by engaging. So we have to make sure that people understand, no, we're not ignoring it. No, it's not that we don't see it. We're actually making a decision to be strategically silent – to a point. A lot of times in those instances, we try to really think about, who are the audiences that matter most to you? Let's make sure they know the real story. ROB: What a tricky, tricky balance. Mary, when people want to get in touch with you and with JT PR, where should they find you? MARY: Well, you practically almost said it. JTPR.com is our website, and that's where you can learn more about JT and you can see case studies and clients and videos that we've produced and meet the team that makes up Jasculca Terman. ROB: Wonderful. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast, Mary, for sharing your expertise, sharing your journey. You have really been a long hauler in building this firm up, and I congratulate you on everything that you've accomplished together. MARY: Thanks so much, Rob. I appreciate it. ROB: All right. Be well. Thanks, Mary. Thank you for listening. The Marketing Agency Leadership Podcast is presented by Converge. Converge helps digital marketing agencies and brands automate their reporting so they can be more profitable, accurate, and responsive. To learn more about how Converge can automate your marketing reporting, email info@convergehq.com, or visit us on the web at convergehq.com.

Brandon Edwards started his career in the issues management / crisis / grassroots / public affairs-focused healthcare division of a multi-industry, multi-practice Santa Barbara agency. In 2009, a toxic rift developed between Brandon's growing medical services division and the rest of the faltering agency. Brandon and his division associates bought out their piece of the business and formed ReviveHealth. It took almost 6 years to go from being issue based to what it is today – a full-service. integrated, all audiences, all channels firm serving B2C, B2B, and B2P, the business to physician/provider side. Santa Barbara was “an extremely high-cost market” with neither a strong employment nor a strong healthcare base. In 2011 decision was made to move to Nashville, TN, which Brandon refers to as “the Healthcare Capital of the World.” He cites Tennessee's central time zone, big airport, abundance of talent, and lack of a state income tax as major incentives for the move.  Brandon feels his agency has a “good business moat” – healthcare is an extremely complex business with major regulatory impacts. Even if generalist firms are good at strategy, they won't be able to deliver in-depth, healthcare-specific strategies or may lack corresponding creative skills. Firms that specialize in “creative” have the potential to propose solutions that could “send you to jail.”  In this interview, Brandon explains how too many medical organizations try to bring customers in through “the side of the funnel,” perhaps by marketing heart surgery to people (who may or may not have a heart attack in the next two weeks). “That's not how funnels work,” he says. “You need to bring them in through urgent care, primary care, preventative care, diagnostic care – some percentage of people that start in the top of that funnel are going to end up needing other services, whether that's PT or surgery of some kind, and all of the other attendant care that comes with it.” What makes an agency in this niche market work?  First, Brandon says, “You have to start with the right people that have the right talent and the right knowledge base.” Even then, it can take 12 to 18 months for a new hire's skills to become a “mature practice.” Strategy has come from a deep understanding of the healthcare business. To be effective, creative work, which comes from outside of healthcare –needs to be interesting and provocative. And process? “Healthcare is not a hobby,” Brandon says. HIPAA restrictions dictate everything the agency does, including information architecture, how information is shared with clients, and marketing campaign design. One early strategy core to the company was the idea of “being built to be sold,” merged, or transferred to employees through an ESOP (Employee Stock Option Plan). The intention was to always keep the firm as if it were “for sale tomorrow,” which informed hiring, compensation, professional development, branding, business development, and marketing decisions. Profits were consistently poured back into company growth. The agency did not expand by adding offices. Instead, it invested in hiring to expand and deepen capabilities, increasing offerings, and buying the tools, technology and data needed for “doing the job” now and in the future. ReviveHealth was recently bought out by IPG, Weber Shandwick, which Brandon says has been and continues to be “a really positive experience.” From the beginning, he built to sell . . . and then, he sold. All it took was sticking to his plan and “little luck”  Transcript Follows:   ROB: Welcome to the Marketing Agency Leadership Podcast. I'm your host, Rob Kischuk, and I am joined today by Brandon Edwards from ReviveHealth based in Nashville, Tennessee. Welcome to the podcast, Brandon. BRANDON: Thanks for having me. ROB: Why don't you kick it off by telling us about ReviveHealth and what the agency's superpowers are? BRANDON: Revive is a healthcare-only agency. We're healthcare focused. Located here in Nashville, which a lot of people know for country music, but it really is in many ways the healthcare capital of the world. It's a pretty phenomenal healthcare city. While we founded the firm on the West Coast, we relocated out here to Nashville in early 2011. Our superpower is really helping healthcare brands thrive. It's helping healthcare brands that want to lead the way. What we mean by that is really bringing to bear the full spectrum of marketing communications in the truest sense of the word “full-service” in a way that is very strategically focused on what we view as an underserved segment of healthcare. Most healthcare firms are dominated by pharma or government or med device; our clients really focus on the provider sector of healthcare. So hospitals, health systems, large physician enterprises as well as health tech and health services. ROB: It's an interesting place to get into. I think there's probably some interesting stories around the conviction to move. How do you go about saying, “I'm in California” – it's like the opposite of the Beverly Hillbillies. You're like, “Tennessee is the place where we gotta be.” BRANDON: It might be the opposite of the Beverly Hillbillies, but I'll tell you the people from Tennessee are probably tired of Californians moving here. There's no state income tax in Tennessee. It's a huge growth market, and yet everywhere Californians go, so go property values. We drive up home values in a very unflattering way. The story is actually kind of interesting. We started in California. I'm from California, my wife's from California, we founded the firm in California. We started the firm September 1st, 2009, and we all remember what was happening in 2009. The recession couldn't have been any worse. If you think about the unique aspects of headquartering a professional services business, particularly one that is highly specialized in healthcare, we were located in an extremely high-cost market without a strong employment base – without a strong healthcare base, actually. All of our talent was going to have to come from somewhere else. In 2009, no one could move to Santa Barbara because they couldn't afford to buy a home there if they couldn't sell their home. No one could afford to sell their home. If they were married or had a partner, that person couldn't find a job in Santa Barbara. So, we really reached the conclusion that for purely strategic purposes, we had to go where the talent pool already existed. We considered a couple markets, but it wasn't even close. Nashville was far and away the lead for us. It has a big airport, central time zone, really easy to get around, and has an incredibly deep talent base. I didn't initially know I was going to move my family here. We thought we'd open an office and staff it. My wife actually suggested we move here. I'd been on the road 150, 200 nights a year for our whole lives, and I think the entirety of her pitch was “If we move to Nashville, you'll get to have a lot more dinners at home and be with the kids more,” and that was it. She's a rare person that volunteered to leave Santa Barbara. ROB: Yeah, that seems like a direction that a lot of people wouldn't go, except what you said: to an extent, you were a frontrunner. I imagine this past season, you read about what's going on with real estate prices, and basically everywhere is functioning as a suburb of the California real estate market. I think you might've beat some of your friends to Nashville. BRANDON: Yeah. We were maybe the front edge of the wave in the summer of 2012, and now the wave is in full force. It's everybody relocating here. It's California, New York, Chicago, big cities fleeing to a slightly smaller city, but a city where, again, there's no state income tax. From an affordability standpoint, it's a very different animal.  ROB: When we think a little bit about your specialty, Brandon, what is it? What are the distinct needs both from a strategy perspective as well as a channels and distribution perspective of this healthcare group specialty market? BRANDON: It's a very nuanced segment. On the one hand, I think we feel like there's a good moat around our business from the standpoint that generalist firms can't really parachute into a highly specialized area like this and deliver the same kind of value and strategic counsel that we can. So our competitive set is a bit more limited. You also tend to attract people who have more specialized careers. In some ways, from a recruitment standpoint, it's self-selection. My phrase for it is “healthcare is not a hobby.” It's an extremely complicated business with an intense regulatory overlay, and it also is highly emotional for people. I think maybe finance is the closest area to it in some ways because of all those factors. From our standpoint, the tradeoff that most clients had before Revive was they could pick a firm that could really help them with strategy, but that firm was going to suck at creative. The flipside is you could hire a firm that was really creative and interesting, and some of the work they were going to propose would send you to jail. Being able to bring together this deep understanding of the business so that the strategy is rooted in a deep understanding of the business of healthcare, how the organization is going to make money if you keep its mission alive, coupled with creative that largely comes from outside of healthcare so that we have fresh ideas and really interesting, provocative, and effective creative, was really not a value prop that existed in our industry 12 years ago. ROB: It would seem to me that part of that story of being able to bring in those outside folks, those new perspectives, but not going to jail, also plays into process a little bit. How have you thought about the emergence of process, of getting that regulatory overlay and consistency across the organization? BRANDON: First, I think you have to start with the people part of it. I promise I'll answer your process question, but if you don't start with the right people that have the right talent and the right knowledge base, my view at least is there's no process that's going to save you from that. When we look at more senior level leaders in the firm in particular – I would say even mid-career and up – we look at people who already have a pretty deep established understanding of healthcare. If you bring in someone who's never touched healthcare and they've been in business for 15 or 20 years, I defy anybody to sit and explain HIPAA to someone in a way that's going to make any sense to them. There are so many aspects of the industry that normal people just cock their heads and say, “That doesn't make any sense.” It's like, you're absolutely right, and it's just the way it is. So I think it starts with people. From a process standpoint, you still have to have process and safeguards. We do extensive HIPAA training. HIPAA and the restrictions around use of data dictate everything about our information architecture, how we share information with clients, how you design marketing campaigns that can be effective and still be well within the bounds of those. So you really have to think through the processes in terms of not just what you do in a normal agency to get good work, but to get good work within the guardrails of what's allowable in the healthcare industry. ROB: That seems like a totally different mindset, and I can see that domain expertise from the experienced voices helping to train and bring up the next wave of talent. One thing I'm curious about – the timing of your focus in the space seems impeccable. The narrative of this past 10-15 years of the consolidation of the healthcare groups, the rise of these regional healthcare-group-sponsored office parks – it's a real thing. I see it all around me. How did you end up at the right spot on that wave? It could've been easy to be too early and easy to be too late. BRANDON: Yeah. I would love to tell you that it was incredible wisdom and vision on my end, and that just wouldn't be true. [laughs] I wish that's what it was. There were a group of us that were in another agency. We were essentially the healthcare practice, a place where I was a minority owner, and it was a multi-industry, multi-practice firm but had built up and created this healthcare presence within that firm. But that firm was very focused. It was essentially an issues management / crisis / grassroots / public affairs firm, so the healthcare practice we had built was very focused on those kinds of services and that kind of work for clients because that was the firm's positioning. And I think it was the right positioning for that firm. We got to 2009 and the rest of the firm outside of healthcare shrunk dramatically. Remember, this is the same time that the ACA was being debated and passed. This was the same time that there was going to be a substantial need for all kinds of expertise in the healthcare space, including marketing communications work. I think unfortunately, when you're in an agency that may be struggling a little bit – what do they say? Character is revealed by difficult times, not created by it. I think what was unfortunately revealed in that moment was a somewhat toxic culture in the other agency. So, when we looked to buy out the healthcare practice and form Revive, we really viewed it as an opportunity to go from being a healthcare practice in a diversified agency to becoming a healthcare agency, as well as an opportunity to really diversify the offering into truly full-service integrated marketing work. For us, there was this really great established base of clientele to work from and help to fund that expansion, but what started was a journey that took I would say 5-½, almost 6 years to go from being issues-focused to being a truly full-service integrated firm. ROB: From a channel mix perspective, you mentioned a PR and comms legacy; what does the channel mix look like today, and where is it heading within the healthcare space? BRANDON: I think the simplest way to put it would be it's really all audiences, all channels. We've gone from planning for earned to planning for earned and social to planning for every stripe of media and every stripe of channel and bringing in people with integrated planning backgrounds, bringing in people that are deep in digital and social and traditional. We actually plan and buy our own media across all channels. Very unusual for a firm our size. But one of the interesting nuances working with media buying, for example, in this space is that most media buying firms really want to buy large campaigns on a regional or national basis, and hospital media in particular is bought almost exclusively on a local community basis. The joke is if you go to work for a big brand, you're going to spend $50 million in $5 million chunks; if you go to work for a hospital, you're going to spend $5 million in $50,000 chunks. It takes a very different structure and thought process to create the media function. And that's just one thing. You still have to think about all of the creative and all of the different areas. We really think about all audiences, meaning we're looking at consumers, we're looking at current and past patients, we're looking at employers and brokers, we're looking at physicians and board members and donors, and then the people within those hospital or healthcare organizations that are purchasing from our health services and health tech clients as well. We really have both B2C and B2B as well as B2P, the business to physician side. It's really a robust channel and audience mix. ROB: It's a really fascinating mix, and it reminds me, as you talk about the regulatory overhead, I could see somebody 10 years from now – you mentioned Fintech earlier; I think various dimensions of Fintech seem like they're positioned both for some real growth versus synthetic growth, but also probably a good bit of regulation ahead. I think if somebody has a brain for that sort of thing, they might do well to start navigating the legality. There might be a good practice there. BRANDON: I'm sure you're in the same boat; I talk to a lot of younger people that are interning or are interviewing with us or whatever it is, and I think there's this tendency when you're younger to think about the sexy things, whether it's gaming or sports or whatever it is. Yet I believe in many ways, the best way to create a career that's going to maximize your value is to find these industries where you can develop indispensable knowledge. I think healthcare is one. I think finance is another. I think maybe once upon a time, defense department type work was. Maybe higher ed. There are some industries that require an incredible amount of focus, and perhaps the skillsets aren't as transferrable between working for one set of consumer products or CPG or whatever it is, but boy, it sure is value-creating for you from a career standpoint. ROB: Brandon, to switch gears a little bit, one part of your story I think we would be remiss not to touch on is the experience of being acquired. Many firms have that wish, but I think I heard recently maybe 1 in 400 agencies will actually ever be acquired. How did that process commence? Was that something you engaged in intentionally? Were you just sticking to your knitting and somebody took notice of what you were doing? BRANDON: We have a lot of flaws as an agency, just like any group of people does. But not being strategic and thoughtful isn't one of them. In our very first strategic plan, September 1st, 2009, when there were four of us, the strategic plan says “Revive is being built to be sold.” There's a little asterisk next to “sold” that says “It's not really about sold; it's about merged or an ESOP to employees or whatever.” But the thinking was, and I think a lesson learned perhaps from previous agency experience, is the worst thing you can have is an agency that you need to sell and can't. It's a bit like owning a home. They always tell you when you're younger, don't have the most expensive house on the street. You don't want to own a house you can't sell. And most people love their home – of any day they own it, the love it the most the day they put it on the market because they've done all the things to make it beautiful and have curb appeal. They've landscaped it, they've painted it, they've fixed all the little dings and scratches. I think agencies are a lot like that. We viewed it as we wanted to keep the firm always like it was for sale tomorrow, and that meant how we hired, how we comped people, how we did professional development, how we thought about our brand, how we did business development and marketed ourselves, how we paid ourselves. We took the view that the owners would comp themselves as employees. We would not take money out of the business; we would pour everything back into growth. So it was always about building enterprise value. We didn't really set a timeline on it. I think maybe in that first plan we said 10 years, and honestly we just sort of made hat up because it seemed like a long time. It turned out not to be. [laughs] But we went into it with that attitude, and it became a filter for every single decision that we made for the business. And I think in a lot of ways it helps to keep you from being selfish. It's really easy to have a great year and think “I think maybe we should pull a bunch of money out and go buy something cool” or whatever, I don't know. We didn't do that. The only money we took out of the business was for taxes, basically, and our individual compensation, which was set and didn't change much during all those years. We would call the question every year in strategic planning, and every year the answer was “No, we're good.” Then we get to the end of 2014. We had grown 60% that year. We had added digital content, social, we had purchased another firm, and we got to the end of the year and called the question of strategic planning, and the group unanimously said this would be the right time to look for a partner. “Let's find someone who has been through this process of integration and can help us do this better and help us grow faster and help us avoid the pitfalls that come with going from being a single discipline firm to a really diversified agency.” ROB: It's interesting to hear that intentionality from the start. I think there's probably some threads to pull on there. For instance, I think you mentioned casually ESOP. It would be good to dig into that. When you think about building from the start, a technology startup will think about issuing stock options to their employees to ensure that they get to share in an acquisition. But that's so often incompatible with a services organization. How did you think about employee comp, sharing in an exit, that sort of thing? BRANDON: Probably not as well as we should've. [laughs] I think you'd always be better at this the second or third time than you were the first time. Let me back up for a second: we had a great experience with the sale. We went about the process in a very nontraditional way. We had a great experience with the transaction. We had a great experience with the earnout with our buyer, which is IPG, Weber Shandwick. You hear all these terrible stories from people, and I will tell you that we had none of that. we had a really positive experience and continue to. Our executive leadership team – we had no senior level departures at the end of the earnout. That's very unusual. Just a good experience. That said, I think we could've done a much better job – I could've done a much better job – leading up to the sale. We did not spread equity around as much as we probably should've. It wasn't so much that we sat down and decided not to as just it hadn't been a part of our plan, and by the time we went to sell, it was probably too late to make meaningful changes to the equity structure. We had five shareholders and five phantom equity holders just before the sale, and we then converted the phantom equity holders to real equity right before the sale because that was our buyer's preference. ROB: What is phantom equity? BRANDON: Think of it as another way of creating an incentive compensation structure that doesn't represent real ownership, so it doesn't necessarily give a holder rights to a percentage of the firm's profit or something like that. The upside is it can be given and taken away just like a bonus would; the downside is it gets taxed in ordinary income instead of capital gains. So it's a little bit more attractive for the company, a little bit less attractive for the holder. It may be a little bit less attractive, but it's substantially more attractive than getting nothing. I think ultimately, I wish we had distributed a little bit more ownership to some key people, particularly some people who really killed it in the last 5 years, but once you've entered into the transaction, it's too late to change the equity structure. ROB: And it's definitely tricky often, and not necessarily in your case – turnover in services can be higher. You also are dealing with the multiples that you sell for, typically. They're not the same in services as they are in startup land. What I want to pull on a little bit now – you mentioned a couple things. If you're building the sell, what comes to my mind is you have to be carrying decent margins on your services to be attractive to purchase. But then you mentioned that you and your partners were also not taking money off the table. I think where that probably points the flashlight a little bit is towards the question of: how do you strategically reinvest meaningful margins to build a business? I think that's where a lot of people typically throw up their hands and just take the money off the table. BRANDON: Yeah, and I don't think that's irrational. I say this as a predetermined outcome for us because this is what we wanted for our business, but to be fair, it's not at all irrational or even maybe a negative to say, “I don't want to sell the business. What I want is to get it to a point where I don't have to work so hard and I can make pretty good money and it creates an annuity for me and my family.” Yeah, there's some dangers of that, but there's dangers in selling too. So I don't know that there's a right or wrong answer to it. I think in terms of reinvestment, we really looked at it in two branches. I'll tell you up front the one we decided not to do, and that was that we were not going to expand on the basis of offices. We were going to look at reinvestment in people and technology as opposed to places. We've never opened an office for a client. We've never been in that mode. We've always had as few offices as we felt like we could get away with and still attract the right talent. So we looked at it in two ways. Early on, it was really reinvestment in hires that would expand our capabilities – sometimes deepen them, but mostly expand them. The reason I think that's a reinvestment is very often, when you're bringing on someone to build out a new capability, there isn't going to be enough revenue there really to justify that hire for some period of time. Typically for us, it was 12 to 18 months from the day we hired someone to the time that was a mature capability or mature practice. We would look at reinvestment in building out these capabilities, and that meant a creative department, that meant a media department, that meant digital capabilities, social media, content, research, all these different areas over the years. I would say hand in hand with that was reinvestment in the tools, technology, and data that could make those people effective. What does our media department need to do its job? What does our analytics group need to do its job? And what are they going to need in the future? What do we need to do in terms of data-driven marketing, whether that's Salesforce or other platforms that we use? All of which carry pretty sizable price tags and some of which are more difficult to monetize with clients than others. I think those are the big two. I would say a distant third was the constant reinvestment in brand building and business development for our firm. We have spent about 5% of revenue on an annual basis from the time we had 10 people in new business and corporate marketing, brand building, for Revive to always be punching above our weight, always be growing. As a result, we're showing 12-year compounded annual growth rates of about 25% a year. ROB: Wow. Sounds like a good company to buy if you're IPG. That's good. And you're still there, which must mean it's also a good job. BRANDON: I would like to believe that they could've bought anything they wanted and chose us. I find that flattering and a statement of confidence from them. But yes, they've been great to deal with, and honestly I've been glad to be here. It's nice to be part of a really great company. ROB: That's great to hear. That's a good acquisition story. Brandon, when you're looking ahead a little bit, what's coming up for ReviveHealth, and maybe more broadly healthcare marketing, that you're excited about? BRANDON: I think in some ways, in our segment of healthcare marketing, the pace of change is accelerating to where many of the things we're seeing now in healthcare marketing are the things that you would see more commonly in other industries. Typically, hospital marketing in particular trails other industries by a few years. We're starting to see that gap close. We're seeing a great deal more emphasis on data-driven marketing and personalized marketing. We're seeing a great deal more emphasis on social media and social media engagement – which, given how personal and human healthcare is, is sort of strange that it's just catching up to other industries now. But I think the biggest shift we're seeing is a mindset shift from hospital operators who have been accustomed to spending the bulk of their budgets on traditional advertising to build brands to hospital executives who see the power of real 4 Ps marketing that will drive volume and profitable growth to their institutions in a way that I think is almost taken for granted in many other industry sectors. ROB: Right. That's actually really interesting because many hospitals are massive institutions, but now they're also living under an umbrella where there was just one location and now there's four, and there's an attendant group of facilities around it beyond that. It's “Who's the brand?”, but also “Where is my local version?” That's what it seems like to me as a consumer. BRANDON: Not to be too flippant about it, but I think we all drive around town and you see these billboards with “heart surgery this” and “knee surgery that.” Does anybody really buy on that basis? I mean, it's not like you drive around and say, “That's interesting. I hadn't really thought about it, but my knee does hurt. Maybe I'll have surgery after all.” It's sort of silly when you say it like that. To me, this industry just begs for highly targeted, highly personalized, data-driven marketing. If I get you into what we call the top of the funnel – urgent care, primary care, preventative care, diagnostic care – some percentage of people that start in the top of that funnel are going to end up needing other services, whether that's PT or surgery of some kind, and all of the other attendant care that comes with it. I think most hospitals have tried to enter the funnel from the side, and it's sort of a joke for us. That's not how funnels work, right? You pour things in the top and they come out the bottom. We don't get to come in and say, “I just want to find those people that want to have heart surgery in the next two weeks.” It's like, no, let's engage people who are going to need heart surgery in six months, in a year, in two years, in three years. Look at more the lifetime value of the consumer as opposed to the transactional value of the consumer, and recognize that physicians play a huge part in it. Most of us go where our doctors tell us. ROB: Right. It starts with being in the provider network at some point. BRANDON: Absolutely. Who you have contracts with from an insurance standpoint, what your medical staff looks like, how effectively referrals are processed, if you provide easy access for consumers – telephone, digital, as well as other methods. It really is all 4 Ps of marketing. It is not just promotion. I think the industry was pretty dominated by promotion prior to maybe 5 to 7 years ago. ROB: That is tremendously interesting. Thank you, Brandon, for sharing your journey. Congratulations on everything you accomplished leading up to and even after the acquisition. It's a great part of the story to tell, and it sounds like the national marketing community is better for it. BRANDON: We have a great team, and anybody that does what we've done in the last few years and doesn't acknowledge some meaningful amount of luck is probably not being honest. [laughs] You can work hard all you want, but if you don't have a little bit of wind at your back, it's going to be pretty tough. ROB: The humility is definitely welcome. We all need a little bit of that luck, and sometimes you have to survive long enough to be lucky. Coming out of 2009 is nothing to dismiss either. Thank you so much, Brandon. We wish you and your team the best. Thank you for sharing your story. BRANDON: My pleasure. Thanks. ROB: Thank you for listening. The Marketing Agency Leadership Podcast is presented by Converge. Converge helps digital marketing agencies and brands automate their reporting so they can be more profitable, accurate, and responsive. To learn more about how Converge can automate your marketing reporting, email info@convergehq.com, or visit us on the web at convergehq.com.

The roundtable interview with Matt and Caleb Maddix and a small group of people who are trying to change the world. Enjoy part three of this special 4 part episode series. Hit me up on IG! @russellbrunson Text Me! 208-231-3797 Join my newsletter at marketingsecrets.com ---Transcript--- Russell Brunson: What's up everybody, this is Russell Brunson. Welcome back to The Marketing Secrets podcast. I hope you've been enjoying this series so far. This is The Roundtable of World Changers, a conversation I had with Matt and Caleb Maddix, and a whole bunch of young entrepreneurs, who are literally out there trying to change the world. This is part three of a four part episode, because the conversation went for three or four hours. And so, this episode's also going to be about 40 minutes long, and it's the next set of questions they asked me. And if you've listened to the last two, you know that these guys ask a lot of questions, in a lot of different directions, and angles, and went all over the place. And I think this time is probably 01:00 or 02:00 in the morning. And so, the questions started going from everywhere, from business, to relationships, to families, and a whole bunch more. So I hope you enjoy this next episode. Here's some of the bullet points of things you're going to learn about. We talked about the 10 commandments of marketing. I talked about my very first mentor, and a thing he taught me, not just to make money in the short term, but how to build a business that now has lasted me for almost two decades. I talk about one of my friends and mentors, Daegen Smith and something that he taught me. It was so simple, yet it's been the key to help me get thousands of people a day to join my email list. We talked about leadership, delegation, scheduling. We talk about, as you're building a team, understanding people's unique abilities. Talked about how much time you spend thinking about the future. Talked about proximity with billionaires. We also talked about how to balance your business and married life, so you can be a good husband and a good father, which is something that I stress about all the time. We talked about a principle that I learned from Stacey and Paul Martino, that has been one of the most powerful things I've learned, which is called demand-relationship. I talk about that. We talk about some relationship tricks, for those who are either married or getting married. Some of the newlyweds, and the engaged couples, were asking some questions about that. Hopefully I don't get in trouble for sharing some of my tricks. We talked about knowing what your values are, and your priorities. Talked about being vulnerable, and being honest, versus staying positive through challenges. We talked about some of the biggest principles and things I learned from Tony Robbins, including how to change your state whenever you need to. And we talked about my 12 year relationship with Tony Robbins, and all the things behind that. We talked about... I don't want to spoil any more. You guys, this is a fun interview. And hopefully, you've been enjoying these so far. So with that said, we're going to cut to the theme song. When we come back, we're going to take you guys immediately back into this conversation. This is, again, The Roundtable of World Changers, part three of four. Matt Maddix: Let's say there was a Russell Brunson 10 commandments. You know how God had one. Russell: Thou shall build a list. Matt: Yeah. How high is this in the 10 commandments? Russell: My first mentor, Mark… Matt: And what would be some of the Russell Brunson... Let's come up with some of them. Like, "Thou shalt..." Russell: We need some stone tablets. Matt: "To all the funnel hackers, thou shalt and thou shall not." I want to hear- Russell: That would be a fun presentation, actually. Matt: Yeah, that would be, actually. Caleb Maddix: That would be. Russell: That would be cool. Matt: Dude, you need to do that. Russell: Come back from the mountain, we have 10 things. Matt: Yeah, seriously. Caleb: Wow. That'd be awesome. Matt: No, the five 'thou shalts', and like, "Thou shall..." and then- Russell: "Thou shall..." Matt: ..."Thou shall not, no matter what..." What would some of those be? Russell: That could be a really cool presentation, actually. Well, so I would say, in my first venture was Mark Joyner, and he was the one... So in context, in history, 18 years when I started, Mark Joyner... I don't think it's probably known. He's brilliant. But he built a company, and sold it off. And at the very end of his career as a coach person, I got to meet him and get to know him a little bit. But I remember, at that time, Google AdSense was this thing that came. And so, if any of you guys are old enough, just try and remember the Google AdSense days. It was insane. They were software. You click a button on software, it would pop out of site, pop out another site. And these sites would make anywhere from 100 to $1000 a day. And you just keep clicking this button, it would pop out another site. And so, people were making $1 million a month. They had teams in the Philippines, that these guys just clicking the button to build the software. It was just... But it was all fake. But it was tons of money. Insane amounts of money. I had friends making so much money. And shiny object, very shiny object, the most sexy shiny object of all time. You click a button, you can make $1 million. That was it, that was the pitch. And it was true. Matt: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Russell: For so... Everyone I knew. Can you imagine that? Matt: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Russell: If I go back in time, 18 years ago, I would move to the Philippines, I would hire everybody, and we would just click buttons. And I would've been- Caleb: Wow. Russell: ...a billionaire. It was- Caleb: Wow. Russell: It was insane. That's how Google got people adopting the AdSense program. So people would put ads on every single site, every single everything. And so, I'm getting in this game, I'm seeing this, and I'm morons making insane amounts of money. And I was like, "Ah!" And Mark had just become my mentor, the very first time, and he's like, "That's going to go away. Focus on building a list." I'm like, "But this guy's a moron. He made $1 million last month clicking a button. No strategy, no brains, no nothing." He's like, "I know, but it's going to go away. Focus on building a list." I'm like- Matt: Wow. Russell: But- Matt: Seriously? Russell: "He's clicking a button. Building lists is hard." He's like, "Build a list." I'm like... And I remember fighting him and fighting him, he's just like, "Dude, trust me. I've been on cycle. It's going to go away. Just focus and focus." And I was so upset, but I listened because I do that. One thing I pride myself on, I'm very coachable. Coach tells me something, I do it. I obey all giants with helicopters and stage presence. Matt: I love it. Russell: They tell me to do it, I do it, right? So I was like, "Ah, but there's free money in piles-" Matt: Even when it's hard- Russell: "All right." Matt: ...you do it. Russell: So I did it. And sure enough, I was doing that, and doing that, within six months, this things collapsed, disappeared, destroyed people's lives. Because you're making $1 million a month clicking buttons, what do you do? Especially as a young kid. Matt: Spending that much money. Russell: You're buying Lambos, and Ferraris, and helicopters, and pilots, and girls, and insane amounts of money. And then it disappears overnight. Devastating, ruined these guys, ruined them, so many people. Matt: There's no skill behind that at all. Russell: Yeah. And I had a list, and I just coasted through it. Right? And I've looked at the SEOs, every single up and down, up and down, through the years, and I just listened to Mark and just focused on building my list, focused on building it, and- Matt: So you still feel that as strong today, as when you heard it? Russell: 100%. Matt: Even then. Russell: 100%. That's one of our KPIs. How many people doing lists today? Every single day. Matt: Really? Everyday? Russell: Everyday. Because I did it for a long time- Matt: Even now, you're saying? Russell: 100%, everyday. John Parkes everyday sends me a number. “How many people joined our list yesterday?” That's all I want to know. Caleb: What's your guys' email open rates? Russell: It fluctuates. 20 ish percent. Caleb: Okay. Russell: Around there. But it was funny because I remember, I had forgotten that lesson after a while. And if you guys know Daegen Smith, Daegen, he's getting back in the game now. He's brilliant. But I remember I had a list, and I was my money off of it. I wasn't focusing on it. And I remember he asked me a question, he said, "How many..." It wasn't, "How many people are on your list?" Because that's what most people ask, "How big's your list?" But he asked me a different question, which input output, right? Matt: Yeah. Russell: The question was, "How many people joined your list today?" And I was like, "I don't know." He's like, "Go look right now." I'm like, "Okay." So I log in, and look at the thing, it was like 12. And I was like, "12?" And I was like, "Is that good or bad? I don't know." And he's like, "Let me show you mine." And he showed me his, and it was like 1400. And I was like, "You had 1400 people join today?" He's like, "Yeah." "Wait, how'd you do that?" He's like, "I just look at it everyday. And when I look at it everyday, somehow it grows." And I was like- Matt: Wow. Russell: "Okay." So then, everyday, after I log in and look at my thing, it was like 12, I'm like, "Ah." In my head, I'm like, "Fricken Daegen had 1400. I only 12." Caleb: Yeah. Matt: Wow. Russell: And also, I was like, "What do I do to get people to join the list?" Matt: Yeah, start optimizing. Russell: And then, your mind starts thinking differently, and all of a sudden you start focusing on it. And it's crazy. I can't tell you how many entrepreneurs, that have been in my world, who have gone up and then come down. And what happens, mostly, is they do something, they build a big list, they stop adding fuel to the fire, they have this list, they sell things to the list, the list atrophies, and eventually starts shrinking and dying. And then, they don't know how to build lists, the business crashes and dies. Matt: I hope you guys are really listening. Really. I mean, he's- Caleb: That's powerful. Matt: ...saving your life right now. Russell: The question, the goal, every single day, is that, because it's a fuel to your fire. And what happens was you stop putting fuel on the fire, and it doesn't die immediately. So you're like, "Oh, I've turned off Ads, so I'm good. But I'm just going to focus on emails, let's focus that." But just every email you send out, your list atrophies, shrinks, dies. And then, eventually, it'll just die. And so, yeah, if you're not consistently, constantly feeding the list, every single day- Matt: And once you have the list, what's the biggest mistake people make with their list? Russell: They don't email it. Matt: Yeah. Russell: They're scared to... You think it's too much emails. It's not, it's the opposite. It's that they don't email. Caleb: Okay. Russell: Minimum of three times a week. Closer to everyday. Matt: Wow. Russell: If you talk to Daegen, it's twice a day, everyday. Matt: Really? Caleb: What other KPIs do you have sent to you every single day? Russell: I want to know how much we made yesterday, striped. Because first off, it's cool to know. Caleb: Yeah. Russell: But second off, also it's like, I want that number to be bigger everyday. So it's like, actual money in the thing, how many people joined the list today, and how many books are sold, how many ClickFunnels members. Those are the ones for me. Our teams have other KPIs they focus on. But those are the ones I care about. Matt: So out of 30 days, when you hear the numbers, how often are you pissed and how often are you like, "Yeah."? Russell: Nowadays, it's always pretty good. Matt: Nowadays, it's like, "Woo." Russell: Because it might go up or down a little bit, but the numbers are big enough, that it's just like, "That's so crazy." I remember... Anyway. I remember just the growth of ClickFunnels, because you know Stripe dings every day with your numbers. I remember when we started going, it got to the point where it's like $10,000 a day, I was like, "$10,000 a day is insane. That's just so cool." And then, it got to a point where it's like $20,000 a day, and then 30, and then $50,000 a day, and then $100,000 a day, and then 150, then 200, 250, 300. I'm just like, "This is insane to me, that this is a daily thing that come..." it was just... Anyway, that's when it got just weird. And it makes me mad because Todd made a commitment to me, that as soon as we passed $500,000 a month in sales, he'd move to Boise. Matt: And he didn't yet? Russell: No. So... Matt: You were out of there already. Russell: And then, I was like, "Well, we have $500,000 a day." And then, he still hasn't come. So I don't know. Some day. Do you think Todd will ever move to Boise? Speaker 4: Plus I'm curious if I could pop in to ask a question. Russell: Yeah, feel free. Speaker 4: I've always wanted to ask someone of your stature, that's done as much as you have, impacted as much people as you have, and really built the business that you have. So I'm curious on your take on leadership, building a team, delegating, and your schedule and how you go about scheduling your day, and prioritizing what's important for you, as a business owner, and what you delegate to your employees and their responsibilities as well. So leadership, delegating, and scheduling. Russell: Good question. It's interesting because I would say I'm not the best leader on my team, by any stretch. And so, it was interesting because I spent the first four or five years with ClickFunnels as the CEO, trying to do my best with it. But it wasn't my unique ability, is leadership. I feel like I'm good at leading a community, but I struggle a lot more with employees and teams, internally. And so, about a year ago or so, I handed the reins to Dave Woodward, to be the CEO of ClickFunnels. And he's been amazing. Man, what he's done inside the company has been awesome. And I think a big part of it is understanding, at least for me personally, I was trying to be a leader, and trying to develop that, but I wasn't the best at it. And I think sometimes we think it's always got to be us. Like, "It's my company, I got to be the CEO. I got to be the leader. I got to do these things." It's understanding that a lot of times there's people who are really good. Who's the best you could find to be that? Or any part of our business. You know what I mean? It's a big part of it. The second thing is, if you've studied Dan Sullivan at all, one of his biggest things is unique ability. That's the thing. What's your unique ability? What's everybody's unique ability? And I think when you start a company, it's tough because it's like everyone's in charge of everything, right? I'm the CEO, but I'm also taking out the garbage, I'm also doing... everyone's Speaker 4: Yeah. Russell: ...doing a little bit of everything, which is cool. When you're scrappy in the beginning, that's important, and everyone's doing that. But as you grow, that starts hindering you more and more and more, where we had people who are insanely talented, who if I could just get them doing this thing, 100% of the time... And that's when it got to the point with ClickFunnels, is that my unique abilities are writing, are being in videos, are building funnels, doing the... Those things are my unique abilities. Caleb: Engineering. Russell: Yeah. And I was spending maybe 10% of my time on that, and 90% of the time in meetings, and trying- Matt: Wow. Russell: ...coordinate people, and leadership. And it was stressful and it was hard. Matt: And you were draining. You were probably drained doing that. Russell: Yeah. And I was miserable, that was just... I wasn't good at it. Not feeling good, like, "Ah, I'm not getting through to people. I can't figure this out." But I felt like I had to own, I had to be the guy, I had to do the thing because this is my baby, this is my business. And the last 12 months has been crazy, because I handed it to someone who actually is good at that, that is his unique ability. And I'm watching company structure, and meetings, and KPIs, things that I was never super good at doing, and consistently having it all happening now. And now, I'm in the marketing department again, and I'm building funnels. People are like, "What do you do all day?" I'm literally in ClickFunnels, building funnels. "No, but you have funnel builder..." No, I'm literally in ClickFunnels, building funnels. I didn't start this business because I wanted to be a CEO of a big huge company. I did it because I love building funnels. I'm an artist, when it comes down to it, this is my art. Matt: Wow. Russell: And that's what I get to do now. And it's amazing. So Dan's got Fridays we book out, and we spend videos, he's got a whole bunch of YouTube videos, we film five or six YouTube vlogs last week, on Friday. So we have that times blocked out to do that, right? I'm writing my next book right now, so I've got my mornings blocked out to write books, because that's when my mind's got not a million things so I can do that. And then, after morning comes in, after I do my wrestling practice, I come in. And that's my teams there, and that's when we're building funnels. I got my designer and my copywriter, the people, and I get to facilitate that. And I feel like the... What's the guy in the orchestra, the maestro? Caleb: Conductor? Russell: Yeah, like I'm the conductor, I'm conducting all these talented people. And everyone's bringing... And I'm alive, and it's exciting. And at night, I can't sleep, because I'm excited again. And so, I think that's the biggest thing, is taking the pressure off yourself if you're not the best leader. That's okay. What are you the actual best at? And success, in business, I think, at least for me, I always thought I had to be the best at everything. And it's the opposite, where it's like, "How do you focus on the thing you're best at? And get the rest of the people around you." Speaker 4: Yeah. And it gets- Matt: And it's... You had to have been willing to let go of your ego, man. Or you wouldn't have been able to grow so much. If you try to do it all yourself... Caleb: So I have a question. How much time do you spend actually thinking about the future? Because it seems like, from what you've told us, you're very dialed in and obsessed on the process, and that's how you've gotten to where you are, up to this point, because you're in love with the game. How much of your time do you spend thinking about the future, and what's on the horizon next year, five years, 10 years? Does that cross your mind? Or what does that look like? Russell: It's interesting, I can't remember who was talking to about this... The further out you look, the fuzzier it gets. You know what I mean? And so, I think for me, it's like we have... I know where I want to go, but the in between is really, really fuzzy, right? It's hard to know. And so, it's like I know... For me, the last big boat was $100 million, the next one's a billion. So we know there's the thing. But it's so far from... I don't know the steps to get there. You know what I mean? And so, for me, it's more like, "Well, here's where we're at." In fact, that was my... We had a chance, last month, to go spend a day with Tony Robbins, and we each had a chance to ask him one question. So that was literally my question, just like... Matt: What was your question? Russell: My question... It'll be a blog soon. Not yet though. No, but it was basically like, "We've gotten to this point, and I know to get to the next goal, the things we've been doing are great and they got us to this point, but I have to think differently to here. I don't know how to think differently. How do you think... It's not another book I'm... Is it a book? How do I think differently?" And what Tony said, that was... it's a very... He said a lot of things, but one of the big things was like, "Proximity is power," like, "You have to be in proximity with people who have already accomplished the thing that you're trying to do." And it was interesting because I look at the path of how I grew ClickFunnels, I did that 100%. I was like, "All right, who are the..." and we found the people, got proximity, and then grew it to this point. So eventually, we kind of coded out of the people who I was aware of. So I asked Tony, I'm like, "Well, where would you go to?" And he's like, "Well, if it was me," he's like, "Who's built the billion dollar company?" He's like, "Marc Benioff." And he started naming all these different billionaires. And this and that, all these things. And I was just like, "I never even assumed those people could... I could be..." it seems so far away. And I was like, "Oh my gosh, that's..." Having a proximity to those people, and start thinking differently, because I don't know the journey but they've done it. Because someone in our world, and like, "How do [inaudible 00:16:13]?" I'm like, "This is literally a 13 minute project. There you go. [inaudible 00:16:16]." It's like I've done it so many times, it's not hard, right? But for them, it's like this is the rocket science to figure it out. And then the same way with these guys who have built billion dollar companies. So now it's trying to proximity to those people, and trying to get around them, and trying to figure out the journey. So the first thing we did, literally, I got out with Tony, Tony gave the answer to the question, and I knew the first guy I needed to get into proximity with. So I texted Dave, Dave called him up, we brought him on retainer. And now, we've got him an hour a week, to get on the phone with him and just ask him all of our questions. And have him introduce us all the different players at that next level. So a lot of it's that. Dave, who's the CEO, was very focused on all the... He's very much like, "Okay, first, to get to this goal, we have to have everyone here, here, here. These are the percentages, the numbers, all the..." Those things stress me out, I hate spreadsheets. He's always got spreadsheets. But he comes back with all the spreadsheets, I was like, "All I need to know from you is... Because I'm going to be building a funnel. What's the goal? What do you need from me to be able to do that?" He's like, "We need more ClickFunnels trials." Like, "Done. I can... Okay. That's where I'm going to focus my energy." And then, it's like, now I can creative on that piece, because I know this is the metric that I can do, with my skillset, to drive it. And everybody's got a metric, right? The traffic team, everybody's got a metric. But for me personally, it's like the only thing I actually affect in a short term, micro, and then I can focus all the creativity and effort on that, while trying to figure out how to shift my mind set to be bigger, to... Caleb: If Marc Benioff offered you $1 billion for ClickFunnels, what would you say? Speaker 4: Good question. Russell: I'd ask him for five. Matt: Good response! Rob: Can I ask you a question, outside of business? Matt: You asking a question? Oh. Rob: Yeah. Matt: Oh, go ahead. Rob: So I remember you were talking about your wife earlier, with how you wanted to get her the couch. Me and my fiance actually met at ClickFunnels, at your event. Matt: Yeah. Rob: So- Matt: ClickFunnels wedding. Russell: No way. Rob: So what I'm curious about is- Russell: Am I going to be the best man at the wedding? Caleb: I told you, you've got to come, I'm like, "You've got to invite Russell." Rob: So what I wanted to ask you is, obviously you run a nine figure company, and there's a lot that goes into that, how do you balance with, let's say, number one, your wife and then your kids as well? And then, what is your secret to a really successful marriage, that's worked for you? Matt: Dude, what- Rob: I think that's something that many entrepreneurs have good marriages that don't really get asked about. So I was just curious about that. Matt: Yeah. Russell: So I hear three questions in there, right? So balance, happy wife... What was... There was a third one? Caleb: Kids. Rob: Yeah, just balancing it, running a company. I mean, you do all these things, you also have a wife, you have kids. Russell: Yeah. So I would say a couple things. So number one is balance is this thing that we all, for some reason, in our mind, we all seek after. But everything great in my life has come from times of radical imbalance. When I wanted to become a wrestler, I wasn't a great wrestler because I was balanced, it was because I became radically imbalanced in that thing. Matt: Dang. Russell: It became the most important thing in my life, and everything else suffered. But I had to do it to be considered successful. When I met my wife, we didn't create a great relationship because we were balanced, I became radically imbalanced. And all my time and effort and focus was on her. And that's why it became great. ClickFunnels, same way. We built ClickFunnels, I was not balanced. We had to become radically imbalanced for a season, to focus actually to get... So that's the thing to understand. In anything great in life, you can't do it in a point of balance. It's radical imbalance that causes greatness. Matt: And that's golf. Russell: And so, you got to be okay with that. But it can't be for forever. It's got to be something that goes, and it comes and goes. Because people who get radically imbalanced for a long time, they can lose their family, they can lose their kids. Rob: Was there a point where you had to tell your wife, "Hey, this is what I really want to do."? Russell: A lot. She had to- Rob: And she had to just- Russell: ...be on board with- Rob: ...get on board. Russell: She had to get on board, yeah. And if she wasn't, I had to say, "Okay, what's more important?" If it was her, then I had to say no to that. And there's been many opportunities in my life I've had to say no to. Rob: What's that dynamic like, being that guys are together, just as far as working out just normal little things? Russell: So I- Rob: Just decisions, those kind of things. Russell: Yeah, well, marriage, you're going to find out, it's hard. Just so fully aware. No one told me that, going into it. I was like- Matt: Yeah. Russell: I was like, "This is going to be amazing. This is going to be the greatest thing in the world." And it is, it's awesome. But man, it is way harder than I thought. Rob: Just to be a person. Russell: Yeah, someone's... I, actually, I would highly recommend Stacey and Paul Martino have a course that my wife and I have gone through the last year, and it's amazing. There's a principle they teach about demand-relationship. If you just go through their... They have a 14 day quick start, it's like $100. But if you just learn the principles of demand-relationship, what they teach. The biggest game changer in a relationship I ever... Of all the things I've studied... Rob: Why? Russell: It is amazing. Rob: What was your take-away? Russell: The principle of demand-relationship is that, throughout history and society, the way that most of us get things done is that... So in a relationship, there's a power player, and there's someone less, right? And if I want my wife to do something, I'm going to demand, like, "I need you to do these things." Right? And that works, until the other person has the ability to leave. So prior to divorce being a thing, men, throughout history, have had a dominant relationship over women. They used to manage and get what they want, and women couldn't leave. And so, it was a horrible thing, right? But they couldn't leave. As soon as divorce happened, boom, it started happening. Right? When parents come over to their kids and give demand-relationship, as soon as the kids are able to leave, it breaks. And then, breaks his relationships. And so, that's the problem, is that for the last 5000 years, that's been our DNA, that men force women to do these different things. And that's what the demand-relationship is. Their whole training, their whole course, everything they teach is the opposite of demand-relationship. How do you create a relationship, where transformation happens through inspiration, not through demanding, and chasing. And it's tough because, for all of us, especially men, it's been so ingrained in our DNA that if we want something, we... That's how we do business, how we do things. But in a relation, especially an intimate relationship, it's the worst thing that could possibly happen. And that's what we all do. So it'd be worth... I'm hoping she writes a book some day, because it's... In my new book, I have a whole chapter, actually, teaching her framework on in demand-relationship. What's that? Rob: Were you high school sweethearts? Russell: College, we met in college. Rob: So she was with you before you started... Russell: Yeah. Rob: ...and had the huge success- Russell: Yeah. Rob: ...basically. Russell: Yeah. Rob: What was that transition like, from you guys, I guess, being... struggling, and you guys stay together- Matt: Good questions, Rob. Rob: ...to now- Russell: His mindset's on this. Rob: Yeah. Russell: Going into it. Rob: What is that like? I'm just curious, because I mean people don't really talk about this, I guess, a lot. Caleb: Relationship genius. Russell: Yeah. And it's different, because some relationships, both the people are in the business, some aren't. My wife's not involved in the business at all. She... Rob: Oh, okay. Russell: ...doesn't understand it, and she doesn't want to be part of it. And that's okay. It's like sometimes that's been the biggest blessing for me, sometimes it's been hard. Caleb: Yeah. Russell: Right? Sometimes I see the power couples, who are both in the business, and it's really, really cool. But I ask them, and they're like, "Sometimes it's a great blessing, sometimes it's really hard." So there's pro's and con's both ways. But I think the biggest part is just, this has been good for our relationship, and at first we didn't always have this, but it was like... Just figuring out how to get... You both have to have that same end goal, otherwise you're fighting against each other, right? And so, when we were building ClickFunnels and stuff, it was hard at first, because she didn't really... She's like, "What are you guys doing? You spend all this time and..." didn't understand it. And it was tough because I was trying to explain it. And luckily, for me, is that Todd was part of this too, and his wife was kind of struggling. So they had each other to kind of talk through it. But it wasn't until the very first Funnel Hacking Live, where... Because my wife had never been to one of my events before, anything we'd really... She knew what kind of we did, but not really. And she came to Funnel Hacking Live, the very first one. And she didn't come down at first, because she didn't realize what was happening. And she was doing some stuff, and then, she came down with one of her friends and walked in the back of the room, and saw all the stuff. And she started just crying. She was like, "Oh, this is what you're... I had no idea this is what was happening, and what was..." And then, it became real for her. And that was such a huge blessing for me, because now, the next time, it was like, "We have to work hard for this." Or, "We're planning for..." whatever, she was able to see this is the fruits, and like, "Oh, that's why you're doing it." Now, if you notice, my wife's, every Funnel Hacking Live, front row. She doesn't understand a word we're saying, but she's there, she's paying attention, because she's like, "Look at all the people, and their lives are changing, and impacting." And now, it's different, where when I got to do work, work late nights, or whatever, she sees the vision, and she's on board with it. So it makes so much easier. The other secret I learned is if I tell her, if it's like 05:00 at night, I'm like, "Crap, I got to stay late tonight." And I call her at 05:00 at night, nothing good can come from that. It's better if you just go home, right? If I know Wednesday night, I'm going to be working late, I tell her Monday. Like, "Hey, Wednesday night, there's a good chance I'm going to be late." And then, if I tell her that, she's totally cool with it, right? But you don't tell them the day of. It'll destroy your marriage more than anything. Matt: That's good wisdom. Russell: The other secret, this secret don't put on camera, I don't want my wife to... Matt: Is that right? Russell: Yeah, if I have any inclination that people are coming to town, or something's happening, I always like, "Just so you know, next week, Matt and Caleb are coming to town. There's a good shot we might go to dinner at night, just so you're fully aware." And she's like, "Cool." And then, it's fine. The other secret, this is the real one. So don't share this outside this room. Speaker 4: This is the off camera one. Russell: Yeah. So especially after... For my wife and I... So we started having kids, the same time I started this business, right? And so, I'm traveling, I'm going to events. And she's at home with the kids. And so, we never traveled before, so I'm going on these vacations, I'm meeting these cool people, I'm in hotel rooms. So every night, I'm getting back, and I'm like, "Oh my gosh." And I'm like, "Okay, I met so and so, and then..." all these things I'm so excited, so pumped about these things. And I'm telling her about stuff, and she's at home with twin babies, miserable, tired, horrible, feet hurt, body hurt. And I'm out having the time of my life. Matt: Yeah. Russell: And I'm thinking she's going to be pumped for me, right? Matt: Right. Russell: No. And for probably a year or so, I was just like... And then, one day, I remember I'm at some event, and I get cornered by people. And then, introverted Russell's like... anxiety, and it was horrible. And somebody cornered me in the bathroom, and asking me questions while I'm peeing. And it wasn't even... At least, sometimes, most of the time, they fake pee next to you, so at least it's not awkward. He was sitting next to me, watching me pee. I'm like, "Can you at least fake pee?" And so, anyway... It was so bad. And I got home that night, and I call her on the phone, and I was just like, "It was horrible." I went off about how horrible it was, and I was miserable. And she's like, "Oh my gosh, I'm so sorry." But then, she was cool. It was awesome. And I was like, "I didn't get in trouble." And so, the next time I went out, I got home that night, call her, I was like, "Oh, it was horrible. My feet hurt, my back hurts." Anyway, and I've told so many people this, entrepreneurs and friends, who do that, and they shift... Because they don't want to hear you're having this... Anyway, is this truly good or not? I don't know. It saved my marriage. Matt: Is it true? Russell: Literally saved my marriage, and it saved so many of my friends, who… so many of friends, who had the same thing. They want to hear the stories, but not in the moment. When you come back home later, you tell the stories, they love it. But in the moment, when they're miserable, and you're having fun, it is not... First time with Tony Robbins, when I walked on fire, I call her that night, I'm like, "I just walked on fire. Waaa!" And I hear the kids screaming in the background, and she was angry. And I was like, "Huh." And I'm like, "Cool, I'm sending you to walk on fire next month." I sent her to walk on fire, and then she was on fire. But it was like... Caleb: She's like, "No." Russell: Later, she wants to hear, but not in the moment, because it's just like... Anyway, so- Rob: Yeah. Russell: ...that was- Rob: Makes sense. Russell: ...life changing for... Anyway, so... And then, the other thing is just you have to understand what your values are. I learned this from Tom Bilyeu at a level that was fascinating, recently. But- Caleb: Who was that? Russell: Tom Bilyeu, he runs Impact Theory. Caleb: Oh, okay. Rob: Impact Theory. Caleb: Gotcha. Russell: But he writes out his values, but he prioritizes them. So his number one value is his wife, number two... And he has the values written out. And so, when a conflict comes in place, or he gets asked to speak at a huge event, speak for the Queen of England, or whatever, but it's the same weekend as his wife wants something. He's like, "My wife trumps the value... 100%, she trumps it. So the answer's no, and it's not hard for me to say no." Caleb: Wow. Russell: And so, it's figuring it out for yourself. What are your values? Personally, with your family, the wife, everything like that. And you define them, and then it's like there's no question. That's what hard, is when you value something here, and your spouse values something differently, and the conflict of that is what causes the fights, right? But if you get on the same page, like, "Look, this is number one, two..." You have these things, then it makes it easier to navigate those things, because it's like, "No, I understand this is one of the values we have together, as a couple, you should go do that thing." Or whatever the thing might be. So anyway... Caleb: That's awesome. Russell: But marriage is one of the hardest things, but one of the most rewarding things, at the same time. So it's worth it, but it's a ride. Go through demand-relationship, man. That's- Rob: That's a great point. Russell: ...so good. Speaker 4: I got a question. Rob: Yeah, go ahead. Speaker 4: So two big things that I heard from you, amongst your story, you were talking this positivity. When you were doing great at something, or you learned something, you're so excited about it, you're so positive, but then there's this other part of you that's very vulnerable. Russell: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Speaker 4: And so, you experience anxiety, or you have challenging days, or you're discouraged. How do you find the balance between those, of being vulnerable and being honest with how you're feeling, versus, "Hey, this is a challenge. I'm an entrepreneur, I can overcome this."? Matt: Right. Speaker 4: What's the balance? Russell: Yeah. That's good. One of the... Everyone who's met Tony has a story about how Tony's changed their life. But one of the biggest things that I... There's three or four things that I got from Tony, the very first time I went to his event and I heard him speak, that had a huge impact on me. One of the biggest ones was state control, understanding that. Have you ever heard him talk about the triad and things like that? Speaker 4: Yeah. Russell: I'd never heard that before, and I remember watching him do these things on people in the audience. And it was fascinating. He took a lady, who was... He picked somebody in the audience who was suicidal, and he's like... It was the weirdest thing. And he talked about the triad, right? There's three things that change your state, right? There's your language, there's your focus, and there's your physiology, right? So he takes someone, he's like, "I need someone who's suicidal." He takes this beautiful girl. I remember, we were up in Toronto, so then he takes this girl, and he's like, "I need you to get depressed. Not a little bit depressed, clinically suicidal." She's like, "What?" He's like, "Just get there in your mind. Whatever it takes, get dark." And you see her state change, right? And he keeps pushing her, and keep pushing her, and he gets her to this point. And anyway, it's crazy I'm watching this. And I'm kind of freaking out, because I'm watching him do this to this girl, getting her to a point... And soon, she's bawling her eyes out and everything. And he's like, "You got to get deeper. Get darker. More miserable." All this stuff. And you see him change this girl's state. And all of a sudden it stopped. And finally, it seemed like forever, finally he stops and he's like, "Everyone look at her. Watch her. Look at this." He's like, "What do you notice? What's her physiology?" You see her body, you see tears, and all this stuff. And you see her just broken. And then, he's like, "What do you say?" And he goes through the whole triad with her. And he shows that. And he's like, "Now I'm going to show you how quickly you can shift this." To the point where it's like... Anyway, it was crazy. And then, he shifts it, and he starts taking her back through, shifting the physiology, shifting her shoulders, shifting everything, shifting her meanings, shifting focus, shifting what she's saying. And he gets this girl, within three or four minutes, to literal ecstasy, it was crazy watching this. And you see her, where she's laughing... the opposite side of it. And I'd never seen somebody like that, the flip of emotions, how easy it was, by just shifting these three things in her. And it had such a profound impact on me. Caleb: Is there video of that? Russell: Not maybe the one I saw, but he does it at every UPW, he does it... I'm sure there's YouTube videos of it, as well. But if you type the triad, I think he calls it the triad or state control, things like that, you see it happen. But I saw that, and I was just like, "Oh my gosh, I never realized that we had control over that. I thought my feelings were my feelings." Like, "Here's your feeling." Like, "Okay, crap, this is the feeling I have today." And after experiencing that, I was like, "I could actually change this." I didn't know that. And it's interesting because I think sometimes when we're depressed, or we're sad, or we have these things, I think some of us like it. I've had times before, I don't want to be happy. I'm enjoying feeling miserable. And sometimes, I sit in there because I enjoy, because we do, it's weird. It's messed up. But I felt that. I'm like, "I could change this but I don't want to." But other times, I'm like, "I have to change it." Now that I've learned that. It's crazy you can shift your state, and you can do that and show up the way you need to be. And one practical example of how I use it a lot is, when I get home at the end of the night... And this kind of comes back to your question, I think, earlier, too. How do you do all the things? And I told you this yesterday. One of the things that I got the biggest, from being around Tony Robbins, the most impressive thing about him is when... Tony's got... As busy as any of us are, take that times 10, and that's Tony, right? He's the most busy person ever. But if you have a chance, a brief moment with Tony, where he's going to say a million things, and you have a second with him, he is the most present person I've ever met. The world dissolves around it, and it's just him and you, and there's nothing else. You can tell. And he's just zoned in on you, and it's this magical experience. And as soon as it's done, he's just gone, he's on the next thing. But that moment, he's hyper-present. And so, for me, when I'm doing things, it's like... Like, when I get home at night, at the end of the day, park my car, I walk in, and there's the door before I come into the house. And sometimes, I'm anxious, I'm thinking about work, and thinking about stuff, I'm stressed out, the FBI sent me a letter today, Taylor Swift suing me, whatever the thing is. And I'm like, "Ah." And then, I'm like, "I'm going to walk through that door, and I can't do anything about it now. My kids are there, my wife's there." And it's just like, "Okay, I got to change my state." And right there, before I walk through the door, I change my state. Get in the spot, and then like, "Okay, here we go." And I walk through the door, and it's like then I'm dad. And it's different, right? And so, I think it's learning those things. Because it's not... Your feelings are weird, they're going to show up in one way or the other, but the fact that you can control them, which I didn't understand or know how. But as soon as I realized that, it's just like, "I don't have to be sad, or miserable, or anxious, or whatever. I can actually change those things in a moment, if I understand how." And that was one of the greatest gifts Tony gave me, was just understanding how to do that, and seeing it in practical application with somebody. And now, it's like I can do it myself, any time I need to, if I need to. Matt: How do you act around Tony Robbins? Especially from the beginning to now, because you guys are close now. He probably looks at you like I look at a lot of these guys, that are Caleb's friends. I look at them like nephews, these are like... I'd do anything for them. And I know that... I can see that's how Tony starting to look at you. But take us from the very first time, because he didn't he have you come to an event, ask you a bunch of questions, take notes, and then just leave you hanging, or something like that. Tell the story, real quick. Russell: Oh, man. Tony's so intense. I still get scared to... It's still like, "Ah." Anyway, every time I see him, it's just like... I don't know, it's weird. His presence is- Matt: He still makes you nervous. Russell: Oh, yeah, for sure. But the very first time... So yeah, it was... I don't know, it was probably 04:00 in the morning. I don't even know. The shorter version of the long story is they asked me to come meet him in Toronto, at UPW, same event as this whole experience happened. So I went up there, and supposed to meet him one day, and it shifts to the next day. And if you ever work with Tony, just know if he tells you he's meeting you at 10:00, it could be like four days later you actually meet. You're on Tony time. Yeah, it's- Matt: That's just how it is. Russell: It's crazy, yeah. Just waiting. But it's always worth it, so you just wait and be grateful when it happens. But anyway, so we finally get to the point where we meet, and I have to drive 45 minutes. This is pre-Uber, so I'm in a taxi to some weird hotel. And we get there, and then me and his assistant stand outside for another hour, waiting in the lobby. He kept looking at his phone, nervously, like, "Ah." He's like, "Okay, Mr. Robbins' ready to meet you. Let's go." So we run up the stairs, we go to this thing, we walk in this room, and there's- Matt: And this is the first time you ever- Russell: ...body guards everywhere. First time I ever met him, yeah. Yeah, he's like a giant, comes and gives me a huge hug. And we sit down, and he's like, "You hungry?" I'm like, "Yeah." And he was vegetarian at the time, so he's like, "Get Russell some food." And brought me out this amazing plate of... I don't even know what it was. But it was... I was like, "If I could eat like this is every night, I'd be vegetarian." Because it was amazing. It was- Caleb: It was? Russell: ...insane. And then, got his tape recorder out, he's like, "You okay if we record this?" I'm like, "Yeah." So he clicks record, picks out a big journal, he's like, "You're Mormon, right?" I'm like, "Yeah." He's like, "I love the Mormon people. When I was eight years old, I went to a Mormon church and they told me to keep a journal. I've kept a journal ever since. Do you mind if I take notes while we talk?" Matt: Wow. Russell: I'm like, "Eh, okay." So he's recording, taking notes, and then he drilled me for an hour. Just like do, do, do. Just like- Speaker 4: And how long ago was this? Russell: This is 13, 14 years ago. Speaker 4: Okay. Russell: Anyway, it was intense. And I can't remember what I was saying, I was so scared, I'm second-guessing everything I've said. And then, he's asking me numbers and stats, because we were trying to do this deal with him. And it was so scary. Matt: So he was just drilling you with questions, and just trying to- Russell: Oh, like crazy, yeah. I'm trying to just... Yeah, dude. Anyway, it was crazy. And then, he had to go back to UPW to speak again, so he's like, "You want to drive with me?" So I'm like, "Yeah." So go down, and jump in his Escalade together, we're in the back seat, and we're driving. And it's just crazy. And I remember he asked me a question about this one... I won't say the person's name because the story isn't positive for the person. But he asked, he's like, "What do you think about so and so?" I'm like, "Oh, that person's really cool and really talented." He's like, "He's a very significant..." and he just talked about six human needs, earlier that day, so I was very aware of here's what the needs are, right? And he's like, "Yeah, I don't think I'd ever work with him, because he's very significance driven." And I was like, "Oh, that make sense." And all of a sudden, I was like, "Ah, Tony is reading my soul, right now." I was like, "What drives me? I don't even know what drives me. Does he know what drives me?" Like, "Oh my gosh, am I significance driven?" I'm freaking out, like, "Ah." And all I remember is panicking, thinking, "He knows more about me than I know about me, at this point." And all these things, I'm freaking out, we're driving in his Escalade. And we get to the thing, and he's like, "I got to go inside. Thank you so much, brother. I love you." Jumps out the car, shuts the door. I'm sitting in the Escalade, like, "What just happened?" Matt: It was that fast. Russell: It was insane, yeah. Matt: It was just like- Russell: And then, the driver's like, "Do you want to get out here? Do you want me to drive you somewhere?" Like, "I don't even know where we are." We're in Toronto somewhere, that's all I know. And so, it was just the craziest experience. And then, I don't hear from him for four or five months, nothing. And I'm like- Matt: What were you thinking? Did you think- Russell: I was like, "He must've hated me. Maybe I failed the test. Am I significance driven?" I'm freaking out about all the things. And then, one day, I get this random... It was actually my wife and I, we were celebrating our anniversary, so we were at... It was a StomperNet event, but we took her, it was this cool thing. And she'd just gone to UPW. I sent her like three months later. So she walked on fire, and she was like... And Tony talks about Fiji there, so she was like, "Someday we should go to Fiji." And then, we get this call from Tony, and it was like, "Hey..." Or it was Tony's assistant. Like, "Hey, Tony wants to know if you want to speak at Business Mastery in Fiji, in two weeks." I was like, "Tony Robbins..." I started saying it out loud so Collette could hear me. "Tony Robbins wants me to speak in Fiji, in two weeks?" And Collette, my cute little wife, starts jumping on the bed, like, "Say yes! Say yes!" Caleb: Aw! Russell: And I was like, "Yes, yes, yes. Of course, we will." And then, we're like, we've got three kids that are all toddlers at this time, and like, "Can we bring kids?" They're like, "There's no kids allowed on the resort." I'm like, "We've got three little kids." He's like, "Ah, all right. We'll figure it out." So I hang up, and we're like, "We don't have passports for the kids, we don't have anything." So anyway, it was chaos, we're freaking out. We ended up getting them there, they literally built a fence around our... The Bula house, where's Dan at? The Bula house we were in. They built a whole fence around, so our kids wouldn't die because- Caleb: Did they really? Russell: ...there's cliffs off the back. Yeah, it was crazy. And then, I'm speaking to this room, and there's less than 100 people. I'm speaking, and Tony's sitting in the back of this room, I'm like- Matt: While you're speaking. Russell: ..."I thought he was not going to be here. This is really scary." Yeah. And he's paying attention the whole time. Matt: Does it make you more nervous? Russell: He introduced me, he brought me on stage, which was like... I still have the footage of that, it's really cool. He brought me on stage, which was crazy. And then, I remember, because in the thing we're talking about lead generation, I was talking about squeeze pages. And afterwards, he got on. He comes up afterwards, he's like, "Yeah, I heard squeeze pages don't work anymore. Is that true, Russell?" He's like, "People say they're kind of dead, they don't work anymore." And this is, again, 12 years ago. And I was like, "Who told you that? They totally still work." Which is funny, because we still use them today. But he was just like, "Somebody had told me they don't work anymore." And I was like, "They..." anyway, "They work, I promise." But anyway, and then I don't hear from him for five years, and then something else happens. It's just weird, these long extended periods of time. But then, every time, every moment, I tried... Five years later, it was a call, it was like, "Hey, Tony's doing this thing. He wants your opinion on it." So I spent like two or three hours with his team, consulting, giving feedback, as much ideas as I could. And like, "Cool, thanks." And then, nothing for two years, and then something else, and then... Little things keep happening, and happening, and can do more and more together. And then- Matt: What did you learn from that? You think that's just- Russell: A couple things I've learned. Number one, I'm sure you guys get this a lot, people who want to work with you, they show up and the first thing they show up with is, "All right, I got an idea how we can make a bunch of money together." Right? They always come, and want to figure out how they can take from you. And I was so scared, and grateful, I didn't ever ask Tony for anything. The first time I asked Tony for anything ever was 12 into our relationship, after Expert Secrets book was done. I had just paid him $250,000 to speak on our stage, and just finished the interview promoting his book. And I was like, "Hey, I wrote a new book. Do you want one?" Matt: Wow. Russell: And he's like, "Oh." And he took it. I'm like, "Cool." And then, a week later, I'm like, "Ah, will you interview me on Facebook with this?" He's like, "Sure." And then, he did, and that video got three and a half million views on it. It was crazy, coolest thing ever. But it was 12 years before I asked him for anything. And I had- Matt: Wow. Russell: ...served him at as many different points as I can. I think the biggest lesson from that is that... And I get it all the time, people come to me and it's like they're trying to ask and take. It's just like... I get it, and it makes sense. But it's just like, "This game's not a short game. If you do it right, it's your life. This is your life mission." Right? Matt: Yeah, that's good. Russell: And so it's just understanding you're planting seeds, and you're serving, and if you do that, eventually good things will happen. And something may never happen with Tony, and that's cool. I do stuff for a lot of people, and nothing ever good ever comes from it. But hopefully something does. Sometimes it's indirect, sometimes it's not, sometimes it's just karma, or whatever you believe in. But if you just always go with the intent to serve, not to like, "What's in it for me?" It just changes everything. And then, if you do that, if you lead with how to serve, stuff comes back to you. But if you lead with trying to get stuff, it just doesn't work. The energy's different in the whole encounter. You know what I mean? Matt: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Russell: So I'm sure you guys have felt that with people, when they first come to you, and it's just like, "Ah." Matt: So is there a point where you... You went to his house. Russell: That was cool. The thing I can say is it was really cool, because most times when I'm with Tony, you're around people. In Fiji, it was fun seeing him, because he's more personal and stuff like that. But it was really special in his home, because it was him and his wife, and it was cool. It was fun just seeing him as him, like as a kid. And even my wife, like, "He seems like a kid here." He was so excited, and showing us his stuff, and all the things. Matt: Ah, well, guys, listen. Russell: Anyway- Matt: A few more questions, because I mean, man, you've been at it for almost two hours, dude. I can go all night, and I know he could. But Brea Morrison, give it up for her for letting us be here. Thank you so much.

Lewis Williams is Chief Creative Officer at Burrell Communications, an African-American-focused, female-owned agency that started 50 years ago to address the interests of Black consumers. Historically, African-Americans often have not been portrayed favorably in the media. Burrell focuses on depicting African-Americans in a positive, realistic way. The very first national-scale client? McDonalds. Other big-name organizations the agency has worked with include Toyota, Walmart, Proctor & Gamble, Google, Major League Baseball and Coca-Cola. Majority-owned by Fay Ferguson and McGhee Williams-Osse, Burrell Communications maintains a strong partnership and affiliation with Publicis . . . and shares clients with other Publicis Groupe agencies. The agency maintains its independence, but the association with Publicis provides synergistic backup and resources. Early in his career, Lewis was often the only person of color in an agency. After working five years at Burrell, he left to pursue other opportunities at some large, high-profile agencies. Twenty years later, Fay and McGhee contacted him and offered him his current position as Burrell's Chief Creative Officer. Like many employees at this agency, Lewis was a “boomerang” -- working for Burrell . . . leaving . . . and then coming back. He credits his success to having great mentors, “following the green lights,” and the chip-on-his-shoulder, I'll-prove-I-can-do-it attitude that came from being an African-American raised in the South. Lewis has seen a lot of change. In 1971, brands were afraid to feature Black people in their marketing: “other” people might assume that the product was just for Black people. Early MTV required Black artists “to have a white person in the video.” Back then, there were a few who understood that consumers came in “all different shapes, sizes, and colors” and the issue was not about race . . . it was about reaching out to untapped audiences.  The one thing that will never change in marketing, Lewis says, is “telling great stories.” Story length varies, depending on platform – from as little as two words in a tweet, six seconds on Instagram, on up to a story line running though such an epic series as Game of Thrones. Lewis reminds us, “Every platform has a personality and expectations.” In this interview, Lewis explains why advertisers use the abbreviated, frustrating, 15-second version of an engaging 30-second spot . . . it's not just about media spend . . . it is also because that 15-second, less-complete story, like a film trailer, leaves you “wanting more.” Lewis has a passion for mentoring “young creatives and young people in the business.” The agency is working with The One Club for Creativity, “an international nonprofit organization seeking to inspire, encourage, and develop creative excellence in advertising and design,” and Oriel Davis, Spotify Creative Director, on a project to provide advertising training to young people. The first session was presented six months ago in New York and LA. The most recent session will involve 15 students in Chicago and 15 in Atlanta. Lewis is also serving on the public relations judging panel for the Clio awards. Lewis can be reached on his agency's website at: burrell.com, on LinkedIn as Lewis Williams, on Twitter, at @willmsl, and as Lewis Williams on LinkedIn. Transcript Follows: ROB: Welcome to the Marketing Agency Leadership Podcast. I'm your host, Rob Kischuk, and I am joined today by Lewis Williams, Chief Creative Officer at Burrell Communications based in Chicago, Illinois. Welcome to the podcast, Lewis. LEWIS: Hey, Rob. Thank you for having me. ROB: It's great to have you here. Why don't you start off by telling us about Burrell and about the agency's superpower? Where do you all thrive? LEWIS: What's really great about Burrell Communications, first and foremost, we are celebrating our 50th anniversary of being in business. When you think about being an African-American-focused agency – for any agency, any business, to be alive and well right now for 50 years says a lot about us. We were started in 1971 by our founder, named Thomas Burrell. He saw a need that African-Americans were being left out of the marketing conversation for big brands. So he started an agency to represent the Black consumer. Our philosophy is positive realism; we always want to depict African-Americans in a positive way in media, because so often in media, African-Americans were not portrayed in the best light. ROB: Absolutely understood. If you look at where the firm is today, what sorts of clients are typical for you? What does the typical engagement look like? LEWIS: It's really great. We have national clients. Started back in 1971. McDonald's was the very first client of the agency, and I'm proud to say they still are a client today. We've had them for 50 years. We have national clients; we have Toyota, we have Walmart, we have a lot of Procter & Gamble business. We really have mainstay clients. We've done work for people like Google, Major League Baseball. Coca-Cola is one of our present-day clients that we've had. As you can see, we've had really big-name brands. ROB: It's quite an impressive client roster. You yourself have been with the firm, it looks like, around 15 years. How did you end up at the firm and how has that journey with the firm emerged over time? LEWIS: It's an interesting story. We call ourselves boomerangs. That's an employee that was at Burrell, went away, and then came back. I'm a Burrell boomerang. I worked at Burrell for 5 years much, much earlier in my career. Had you told me that I would come back to be the Chief Creative Officer, I would've thrown my shoe at you. It's interesting; Tom Burrell himself, the founder, hired me. I worked there for 5 years, I went to other agencies – mainly Leo Burnett, which is a big one in Chicago. I was gone a good 15 years, and I got a call from Fay Ferguson and McGhee Williams-Osse – and I'm proud to say we are female-owned. Not only a Black agency, we're female-owned. I got a call after I'd been away from the agency for 20 years or so – not to date myself – and they said, “Hey, Lewis, we're looking for someone to lead the agency.” That was really special to me. You get hired by the founder, and one day you're sitting in his shoes. Because Tom was a creative himself. He wasn't an account guy. So I really looked at, wow, I'm going to step into the shoes of this advertising legend. Tom Burrell, again, he's in the advertising hall of fame. It was just a great honor to have a career that comes full circle and sit in the seat that I'm in today. ROB: That's certainly a privilege. You're unique in being a sizable agency of consequence, of lasting beyond the founder, and then also, as I understand it, still remaining I think independent. Is that right? LEWIS: Yes. We do have a relationship with Publicis, but we're the majority stakeholders. Fay and McGhee are the majority stakeholders. They have a very strong partnership and affiliation with Publicis. So we have strong backup and resources. We do a lot of work with the other Publicis agencies. We share some of the same clients. It's good synergy at work with Publicis and Burrell. ROB: That's very interesting. I would imagine that you have probably seen an offer or two cross your desk in your time there to become fully part of someone. I'm sure there's an intentionality in staying independent, because it would be very easy just to say yes to a check. LEWIS: Yeah, you can see a lot of the big agency brands – I worked at Leo Burnett, and Leo Burnett was a huge, huge independent agency. So was Fallon. This is not pushing anything against the big conglomerates and everything, the holding groups, the holding companies, but you do lose a little personality. You lose a little bit of that individuality and culture. When you think about that, this way we really can represent ourselves and in the community that we represent. Once you get totally acquired by a holding company, it's just a different game at that time. You've got to fit into an overall much bigger picture, and you've got the limitations and the decisions. You're going to have to go through a lot more hoops. Even though those decisions may be beneficial to the entire group, it may not be the best decision for you. I applaud us being able to hold onto our independence. But even now, with a great affiliation with Publicis Groupe, they have been a great partner in helping us attain some of the success we've been enjoying. So I think right now it's having our cake and eating it too. [laughs] ROB: You mentioned having boomeranged almost from a different era of advertising. When I see “Communications” in the title of a firm, a lot of times that also hearkens to an origin in a lens of public relations, but then also through advertising. Now the world is very, very different in terms of the marketing mix. How have you seen the mix of services evolve at Burrell over your first tenure, your second tenure, and so on? LEWIS: I'll tell you, Rob, you're right. It is such a different industry. It is an entire different industry. One of the things I love is to mentor young creatives and young people in the business, and that's what's kept me excited. This is no longer the industry I started in. It's an entirely different industry. Like you said, communications comes in so many forms – even to the point where you look at advertising agencies and marketing people – we used to always push things on you. “You've got to watch this commercial. I don't care.” But now, in this digital and social world we're in, and this on-demand world that we are, and the streaming and all of those things, everyone is a marketer. The influencers now. Creativity is coming from everywhere. It's just such a unique time to be in this “industry” – and I put quotes around “industry” because what is it now? It's a little bit of everything. All the lines are blurred, from the content makers, and even when you talked about public relations. You see the work I'm judging for the Clios right now. I'm on the judging panel for public relations. I mean, they're marketers. No longer are PR companies about, “The CEO said something wrong, so we need to fix it with a letter, with a press conference.” No, that's gone away. Everyone is touching the consumer in so many unique ways where you can't tell “what is what” now. ROB: Absolutely. The distinction between ad, print, digital – it certainly mixes together. LEWIS: Yeah. ROB: As the Chief Creative Officer, how has your creative process shifted? People don't think about it, but 15 years is right on the edge of pre- or barely social media. LEWIS: Yeah. How old is the iPhone now? The iPhone might be 14 years old. It's so funny, Rob – you know how you keep your old cellphones, because what do you do with them? I have my very first iPhone. It's this little bitty thing. It looks archaic. I remember seeing the iPhone for the first time, and it's like, oh my God, wow, we've gone to Mars. Now I look at my first iPhone 1 and I chuckle. [laughs] ROB: So how has the creative process shifted with these different devices, with different audiences, with different audiences on different devices? Your audience for the iPhone in 2007 was different from the audience today, which is like everybody. Every age group, every demo is in the iPhone audience now. LEWIS: This is how I approach it, Rob. At the end of the day, one thing that's going to never, ever change is telling great stories. Telling stories that are relatable. You tell a great story, it will engage people. Now, the thing is the length of those stories. Who would've ever thought – and I couldn't have told you 15 years ago – that I'd be able to create a story from beginning to middle to end in 6 seconds? A lot has to do now with our attention span and how we consume content. I remember Game of Thrones. I don't know if you were a Game of Thrones guy. ROB: I definitely watched some Game of Thrones. LEWIS: That was a whole thing on social media. You could only engage people for 2 or 3 seconds. But now, you can see what the event of Game of Thrones became. It became appointment television. It became hours on hours of content in the midst of where sometimes you could hold somebody for 2 seconds. That just shows you the power of the storyline. So what I tell my young creatives and all of us: it really is about the story. The story could be a tweet. Popeye's Chicken exploded with one tweet, and it was two words: “…y'all good?” That was a response in a tweet. So you can go to two words in a tweet, you can go to 6 second videos on Instagram, or you can go to a whole series like Game of Thrones. But at the core of that is: what is your engaging story and how is it connecting to the brand or the message you're trying to give? At the end of that, throw all that away. There's so many ways to tell that story, you have to be aware of the medium that you're telling that story in. Every platform has a personality and expectations. If you're going to tweet something, you've got to put on your tweeting storytelling hat. If I'm going to Instagram it, I've got to put on my more visual storytelling hat. If I'm going to Facebook it, I'm thinking about more communities. Television, a lot is still served in the same way, but a lot of this social influence is finding its way into television as well and how you tell those stories. You see it a lot with user-generated content on YouTube. So many brands. You see something went viral on YouTube; you see that clip in a brand commercial during the Super Bowl. All of this stuff is coming together, but at the very core of everything is storytelling and how that storytelling matches the platform. ROB: That “…y'all good?” – it's such a concise example. It's like the “Jesus wept” of advertising. LEWIS: [laughs] Yeah. ROB: “What do you mean, Jesus wept? Tell me the story here, man.” [laughs] Did you have any involvement in that Popeye's campaign, or did you have clients looking at that and how to respond? How did you react when you saw that, or perhaps were involved in it? LEWIS: I want to make it very clear, I was not involved in it. But it's something which you see and you say, absolute brilliance. ROB: McDonald's had to start thinking about it. They're getting to it, right? LEWIS: Yeah, they're getting to it. What you saw was the personality of a brand on Twitter. Social media has been very difficult for brands to navigate because social media is for us. It's not for brands. You controlled us with making us look at TV commercials and stuff, but now this is ours. I'm following my people, I'm following my friends, I'm following my influencers, and I'm following the brands I believe in. So when you come into my space, you've got to really understand who I am and what I'm about. A lot of brands still go into social media with brand voice, like here's Mommy and Daddy telling us what we think and always pushing themselves first. What Popeye's was able to do was create a personality and become a person. How many brands would say “y'all”? It took on the persona of a person, so it gets much more easily embraced. Many brands still struggle with their voice in social media. How do I still be a brand, but at the same time be very relatable to my consumer? That's a tough line to walk. ROB: It's absolutely tough. I'm thinking of one of the ads of the moment – and of course, the insurance companies always get deep into this world. I think what people tend to forget is they take a lot of shots on goal. They just happen to have enough budget that they can take a lot of shots with big ads. Maybe other brands need to think more about how they can take more shots at success with smaller ads. But I think the ad of the moment that I think is even cheated by shortening is, of course, the Geico Tag Team TV ad. The 30 second version, there's an element of storytelling there. And I will tell you – and this may just be me – when I see the 15 second version of the ad, I feel cheated. I don't know. LEWIS: [laughs] Rob, the reason why you feel cheated is because you love it, and you know there's more. It's like, “Wow, I want that experience.” The 30 second spot allowed you to enjoy and engage, and you really were into it. I smile every time I see it. Every time I see it, I smile. I love it. I don't look away. It's so engaging. When you only get a taste of that, you know there's more and you want more. But that's good, because now I've got you still wanting more. It's like, come off the stage with them wanting more, not saying, “Okay, we're finished with you.” But also, that 15 seconds has a purpose. It's just a reminder. You've got to fit into the media budget. You've got to make the media expand. I'll hit you with the 30 every once in a while, and then it's sort of like the preview. It's the trailer for the movie. You see the trailer for the movie and you go, “Wow, I want to see that movie again.” It just reminds you that the other content is out there, that you can go on YouTube and watch it as many times as you like, if you want to. That's the purpose of the 15. But that's a great way of telling you, when you really tell the story on that platform, and it's 30 seconds in a world where people tell you they only look at it for 2 seconds, it just reenergized Tag Team's career. People fell in love with nostalgia again and the music and so many things. It's so clever, the generations. It says so many things in that story. ROB: Lewis, you've kind of blown my mind with the 15 second ad insights on that, because you've left me thinking about film trailers and how some of them just try to be a bad summary of the story and some of them work harder to get you to want to see the rest of the story. Now I'm thinking about all of the ways that the 15 second cut of that Geico ad is just meant to leave me wanting more. I haven't thought about it that way, and I'll watch every 15 second ad through a different lens now. LEWIS: Yeah. It has to do with media spend. 30 seconds costs more than 15 seconds. I've got two dollars, I've got to stretch it for as much reach as I possibly can. ROB: Got it. I've seen at least a good article or two out there about the production of that ad, about the creative process, about giving room for ad lib and free flow, and even the career decisions around it that Tag Team made, of the ads they didn't do. They didn't do the “Soup! There it is” advertisement that they could've done. It would've been very natural coming off of the SNL Justin Timberlake skit (while we're tagging all over the media map here for a moment). Lewis, when you reflect on your journey, your career so far, and your time in particular with Burrell, what are some lessons you've learned that you might consider taking the time machine back and giving yourself some advice on what to do differently? LEWIS: I tell you, man, Rob, I don't know what to do differently. Some of that is personal or not. One of the unique perspectives I do have on this industry is that I am an African-American creative. That's been tough, being in this industry. There's a lot of movement to rectify that, not only with African-Americans, but women and all minorities and people of color in the advertising industry. That's always been tough to navigate. As far as doing things differently, just on the personal side, I wish I'd had someone to help me navigate a little bit more. One of the challenges of being in these situations is often, especially early in my career, I was the only person of color in the entire agency. But from that, you do learn a lot. You learn how to interact with people that are different from you. You learn how to not lose your culture. I think I navigated that pretty well, because being from the South, I could navigate being the only African-American in the room and not losing who you are. Personally, there's maybe speaking up quicker. I had this fear of losing my job if I actually said exactly what I meant. That came with experience, that came with confidence, and it came with success. You get that behind you, and then you can speak a little louder because people really want to know what you want to say. But my whole thing I say for anybody is, there's talent and there's work ethic. They need each other. They really do need each other, because I've run into a lot of talented people without the work ethic, and I've worked alongside people with stronger work ethic but who lacked the talent. It really takes both. Both can take you so far, but until they really meld together, that's when bigger success happens. For me, I had one of those lives that I followed the green lights. I didn't go against something. If it was a red light, I didn't try to force it. I just followed the green lights – and I had help. I had people that believed in me. I had mentors. I like to feel like I deserved the mentorship. Somebody looked at this kid and thought, “Wow, if I can help this kid out, I can take credit myself.” [laughs] That sticks with me. And I've always had an underdog mentality. First, being Black coming out of the South, being Black working at predominantly white agencies. Even working at Burrell, a Black agency, it still is a resource struggle. But when you're an underdog, Rob, you get a chip on your shoulder. You just want to prove everybody wrong and make them eat their words. Whatever they were thinking, I want them to eat it. [laughs] ROB: Probably quite a privilege for you now, where you are – you certainly probably don't know everything, but you know enough to help some other folks that are coming along. One thing I wonder, coming from the other side of the table, if I'm just freelancing a little bit on the history of the agency, I would imagine early on, a lot of folks were engaging you, saying, “Can you help us speak to your audience?” Was that the earlier era? LEWIS: Yeah, and it's interesting how it's changed. It's sort of like here we are, back again. In 1971, a lot of brands were simply afraid of featuring Black people in their marketing efforts. That's why we give huge kudos to McDonald's. They were one of the very first people to actually show Black people in national ads. At that time – you've got to think about back in the '70s – people were concerned, “Am I only saying that this is for Black people? I don't want to piss off other people.” Things like that. You've got to think about that. So that's very different. But fast forward now and what's going on contextually in the country now, you're seeing people of color everywhere push for that. That's been a very interesting thing from then to now. But there was a time that brands were afraid. They just didn't believe in it. But at the same time, you had people in the '70s that felt that it should be done, but it wasn't social pressure. They just understood that, listen, these are consumers. We're consumers, and we come in all different shapes, sizes, and colors. They didn't look at it from race. They're like, “Here's a consumer that we're not talking to.” I remember early on this whole stigma around women buying cars, that women were intimidated, and if a woman wanted to buy a car, she should bring a man with her, because “what did women know about cars?” I remember Subaru was one of the first commercials that had this young lady come into a dealership, and this dealer was talking to her like, “Oh honey, you don't need to know nothing about that engine. Here's this vanity mirror. It comes with a vanity mirror. That's all you need to know.” And she walked out and she went to a Subaru dealer, and he treated her entirely different. It showed women are customers too. The same thing with beer commercials. I worked on Budweiser, and I'll tell you, back in the day, if you were a woman in a beer commercial, you had on a swimsuit or you're a Bilbo. Now I saw this beer commercial where the woman comes home and takes off her bra to have a beer. You've got to understand consumers. It's really about marketing and making your brand engage with more customers, which takes you to the bottom line. Real quickly, I remember how things changed. MTV – I don't know if you recall MTV – was very forward-thinking. But if you were a Black artist, you had to have a white person in the video. I laugh about – go to LL Cool J's “Around the Way Girl” music video, and you have this white girl dancing. First of all, you're talking about an around the way girl. “Bad attitude and a Fendi bag.” You go, why is a white girl in an around the way girl… [laughs] ROB: I remember that. LEWIS: It's like, what is she doing there? But MTV said, “Unless you have a white person in your music videos, we will not air you.” It shows you how things have changed. ROB: Right. One thing I think a lot about in this sort of conversation, part of my imagination is – we've talked to niche agencies, cultural agencies, but some of these agencies, and I'm sure you all in particular – it's unqualified. You're getting the national campaign. What I think about, sitting on the other side of the table – you mentioned on your journey thinking about what you say; how do I think about freeing people up and creating enough room around the table for everyone to bring their whole selves to the ideas, and not cutting off the conversation way too early? Because even letting people go out of bounds I think is how you get to where you're going to go in bounds. If you're not even bringing your full self to the table, much less going out of bounds for yourself, you can't get to the best ideas. LEWIS: Rob, you're right. I call it stretching the rubber band. You've got to stretch that rubber band to know where you are. It's uncharted territory. You take these elements and you put them together. But you've got to know what's on the other side of the mountain because it does a couple of things. Do you need to go there? Does it reinforce your position that you are in, or tell you where you need to go? And you may not use that information right now because it may not be the right time. But you might use it next week or next year or 6 months from now. It just lets you know. Creatively, you would think that we should always keep that open as creatives. But sometimes as creatives, we become by nature very protective of our own ideas, or we get there and we stop. We get to a certain level. That's what I love about how the industry has changed. I give myself credit because I've been able to adjust. Some of us have just become stuck, and you stay there. It's like a musician whose music couldn't evolve or change. But if I'm a musician, I still have my unique sound behind how I'm able to change with the instrumentation or my message with the lyrics or things like that. But unfortunately, as creatives sometimes we get stuck and we just stay there. ROB: We just play the hits, right? LEWIS: Yeah, just play the hits. But to your point, you stretch that rubber band till it almost pops. You know, Rob, sometimes it might just break on you. That's okay. That's all right because you know you got everything out of it. It's interesting, too, this whole pandemic world. It has us doing things that we would not be doing as an industry. All of us, the whole country, are doing things that we could've been doing; the technology was there for us to do it, but we just didn't do it because we didn't want to explore. This forced us to do things we never thought about that were always there for us to do. ROB: That's right. We did a 50-day road trip vacation last summer from Atlanta to Utah and back in the middle of a pandemic. It was Zoom and it was phones and it was all that, but it was there for me 5 years before. LEWIS: It was, right. Exactly. Now we're going to have family reunions and nobody will have to travel. [laughs] We had a little family thing, about 20 of us on the phone together. We've never been together, but like you said, the technology was there. It was great to see the kids come in, all over the country, at one time. It was just a Zoom call for an hour. It was great. ROB: Lewis, this has been a distinct privilege. I'm glad to talk to someone with your perspective and experience and, let's really note, runaway success. When people want to connect with you and with Burrell, where should they go to find you? LEWIS: The agency is simply burrell.com. There's contact information and you'll see some of the work we've done. Me personally, I'm on LinkedIn, Lewis Williams. On Twitter, I'm @willmsl. LinkedIn, just Lewis Williams, you can get me personally. I like to engage with, like I said, mentorship. Right now we're working with The One Club, which is in New York, and we have a skill for young people who can't afford to go to the very expensive advertising schools. We're starting that in about two weeks. We have about 15 students in Chicago and 15 students in Atlanta. Oriel Davis, CD at Spotify, put this together. 6 months ago they had New York and LA, and now they've extended to Chicago and Atlanta. If I can be of any help, I'm always there. ROB: That's wonderful. I think anyone should definitely avail themselves of that opportunity. You've followed a great path for people to learn from. Lewis, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. Although we can do all this stuff over Zoom, we'll also do stuff in person sometime, I think. I'm going to get on an airplane at some point and see some people face to face as well. LEWIS: All right, Rob. Thanks for inviting me. I enjoyed talking with you. Have a good time on the golf course, man. ROB: Thank you. Be well. LEWIS: Be well. ROB: Thank you for listening. The Marketing Agency Leadership Podcast is presented by Converge. Converge helps digital marketing agencies and brands automate their reporting so they can be more profitable, accurate, and responsive. To learn more about how Converge can automate your marketing reporting, email info@convergehq.com, or visit us on the web at convergehq.com.

John Limotte, Founder and CEO of Mustache Agency, started his career as a film producer making indie and arthouse films. When that business became more difficult (impacted by, among other things, the rise of the internet), John looked for a way to use his skills doing something that looked more like a real business. He saw potential in the field of marketing for “more cinematic . . . epic . . . more longform storytelling.” So, he started a very small video production agency and took jobs one by one to see where things would go. Ten years later, Mustache is a creative content agency with client services spread across three lines: integrated campaigns, video production and post-production, and social. The core of the agency's work is content and digital content, with a focus on storytelling and creating epic, engaging video content . . . doing high-quality, cost-effective work. Even from the early days, the agency produced hundreds of videos a month. The client “playlist” includes such “big names” as Facebook, Google, Netflix, Amazon, a lot of tech disruptors, Instacart, Grammarly, and YouTube. When Mustache works with Facebook and Instagram, the agency gets the “inside scoop” on their best practices, new products, what's working on the platform, and how to tailor content for the platform. John says the agency is learning from the platforms “how to hack them,” but then admits that the only real hack is creating “really good, sticky content.” Working on those platforms has increased the agency's effectiveness and provided the opportunity to work with the digital disruptor brands that heavily advertise on those platforms.  John says the key to his agency's success is “hiring good people who are passionate, have expertise, and know what they're doing; keeping the focus on high level storytelling; and demanding that whatever content goes out still moves the needle.” He says, “There is no hack. There is no foolproof system.”  You need to think about who your audience is, you need to think about who you are, and you have to think about what you want them to do and the best way to get them there, and you need to do that . . . through content and storytelling. You still need a hook. You still need to make people laugh. You still need to tell a story, have a journey. Even as the formats and the aspect ratios change, those things remain the same.  Mustache has never focused on a single vertical. John sees a lot of upside for his business across a wide variety of verticals. Why? John says industries today are evolving in the direction of increased video content . . . especially since COVID. He sees another upcycle and no end in the demand for and consumption of content.  John is best reached on his agency's website at: mustacheagency.com. ROB: Welcome to the Marketing Agency Leadership Podcast. I'm your host, Rob Kischuk, and I'm joined today by John Limotte, Founder and CEO of Mustache Agency based in Brooklyn, New York. Welcome to the podcast, John. JOHN: Thank you, Rob. Nice to be here. ROB: It's excellent to have you here. Would rather be up in New York, but we can talk about that. Why don't you start off by telling us about Mustache and where the firm excels? JOHN: Sure. Mustache is a creative content agency based in Brooklyn. We essentially offer three lines of services: integrated campaigns, video production and post-production, and social. Our clients are pretty evenly spread across those buckets. But at the core of everything we do is content, video content. We came up as a video production company focused on storytelling and creating epic, engaging video content. Eight or ten years later, depending on when you count the start date, our focus remains the same and it continues to be what we do best. ROB: It seems like you've really had the privilege to work with some clients that others would dream of. How do you make that jump from starting with – I don't know if it's you and a camera or what it looks like, but how do you start punching so heavyweight to work with some of these big names? You can run off whoever you're comfortable talking about. JOHN: Our first client was a plaintiff's law firm in the Bronx, and we were doing some pretty tactical digital marketing and $1,000 videos for him. We dubbed him “the King of the Bronx” and did a lot of man on the street videos of him because he was a true man of the people. From there, it's evolved greatly. These days we're working with everyone from Facebook, Google . . . Netflix is a big client of ours, Amazon, a lot of tech disruptors, Instacart, Grammarly . . . we do a lot of work with YouTube. How we got there is a great question. I wouldn't say that it was any sort of thought-out path. Some of it is just, I think, good fortune. But from the beginning we were focused on content and digital content, storytelling, video storytelling, and just doing that really, really well and cost effectively in a model that was outside the traditional agency model back in say 2012. With that focus, a lot of these companies just found us. We did some viral video campaigns, some YouTube campaign. We were doing some episodic web content that got some attention. In a lot of cases, being in the content business led to the work proliferating because we were creating, even from the early days, hundreds of videos a month. From there, word got out and eventually we found ourselves working with some of these bigger companies. I should say those are not retainer clients; we would be at an entirely different scale. These are all giant organizations that work with tons of companies in different niches and different capacities. So, it's the biggest companies in the world, but sometimes they're just small little campaigns that they hire us for, and we've been really fortunate that they do. One thing I'll add about that, too, is that for us it's created a kind of virtuous cycle. When we're working with Facebook and Instagram and we're talking about best practices, new products, what's working on the platform, and how to tailor content for the platform, we're learning from the platforms themselves how to hack them, really – although the truth is, there's not a lot of hacks except creating really good sticky content. But there are a lot of things you can do that we learn from them, and those make us more effective. I think that led to more work with the digital disruptor brands that are doing most of their advertising on those platforms. ROB: It's interesting because Instagram really has the visibility to look at every video that's made, just about, and decide who they want to work with. It's a pretty high compliment. One thing I want to pull on a little bit is that you mentioned even early on having hundreds of videos in flight at a time. That sounds overwhelming to me. I wonder how you're able to keep track of all of that. I know a bunch of people who have started video agencies, and not many of them that I know have crested that 10-20 person range. So, I wonder if there's some key in how you manage that scale and beyond that has helped you make it over the hump. JOHN: I will say that scaling great creative at good pricing is the bane of our existence. It's a challenge that you never win, in a way. It's never over. There's always the quest to do more and to do it better and to do it more cost effectively. I've never had that feeling of like “Oh, we cracked it. We're good.” It's just something that you have to continually be working at. We have a lot of smart people who spend a lot of time thinking on this problem and what kind of systems, what kind of processes. But again, one of my themes is that there's no hack. There's no foolproof system. There's not some proprietary technology that we've developed. At the end, at the core of it is hiring good people who are passionate and have expertise and know what they're doing, keeping the focus on high level storytelling, and demanding that whatever content goes out still moves the needle. People often ask me why we never focus on a particular vertical because we've always moved across verticals. I think for us, the question is easy because our focus has always been content, storytelling – just focused on that. We've built up a lot of expertise around that capability. At the same time, as I said, we're always working on the best workflow, the best system, the best structure. We've done a couple of reorgs over time as we gain new insight. We've also benefited from the fact that it's been organic. It's not like we started Day 1 making 100 videos per client per activation. I think much like the industry itself, it started with a TV 30 and then a couple of cutdowns, and the business has grown from there in terms of iteration and scale. We've had the good fortune of growing – from there it was 10 deliverables and then it was 100. Every client is different. Every circumstance is different. It's not like you need 100 videos or you need 10. But generally speaking, the numbers have gone up, and they've gone up steadily so that we've been able to adapt and adjust as the volume and the needs increase.  ROB: I think I have an idea, but for all of us, including me, what is a cutdown? JOHN: Basically just taking a 30-second spot or a 60-second spot, whatever the longer form of the content might be, and cutting it into smaller pieces – 15s, 6s, and so on. ROB: Got it. I think we've all seen that and now we know what to call it. It seems like one key may also be your involvement on the social side. With that as a line of service, it seems like that would give you insights into not just the overall raw performance of the content, but more specifically, you can get into the metrics and look at the performance of the content with the audience it was intended for as well as uncovering unexpected audiences. It seems like that would feed back into strategy. Are the platforms giving you the metrics you need to draw that sort of insight? JOHN: The clients are mostly pretty proprietary in terms of the platforms themselves, but you're able to track in social and digital performance yourself and see how things are working. When we're working with brand clients, often they'll share with us the data and the results, so we're also able to see from that. So yeah, it's been a tremendous feedback loop. In some ways we came into this with a very non-data, very intuitive approach, like “What is an insight that feels resonant? Let's tell a story about that in a way that to us feels compelling and impactful.” You never lose that eye towards the content, but then once you start working in social and you start getting more digital execution and getting that information about what's working and what isn't and you start being able to test different things and different hypotheses about content, then you're approaching it from both sides. You're using both your intuitive instincts around content and storytelling and you're able to look at the data. I think that's a pretty powerful one-two punch. ROB: For sure. John, if we rewind a little bit, go back in time even before that plaintiff attorney client, what was it that led you to take this jump and start the firm in the first place? Where did Mustache come from? JOHN: It was born somewhat of desperation, to be honest. I was a film producer back in another life and I was making indie films and arthouse films, the type of things that would go to Sundance and South by Southwest and hopefully find a distributor for it. I loved the business, but it was changing and becoming more difficult. Actually, with the rise of the web, that began to threaten that business in some respects, or at least in the form that I knew it. So, I started thinking about where else I could apply my skills. Is there something that more resembles an actual business? Film has this magical fantasy element to it where you're inspired by a story and you make it and hope that the world loves it. I was certainly drawn to the fact that there is a business that rewards creative and content and needs good stories. Especially at the time, in 2010, it felt like there was a real opportunity for more cinematic and epic storytelling, more longform storytelling. There was some minor identification of an opportunity and a shift. I think it was that combination of me looking for something new, seeing that there might be a place where this thinking might resonate, and then just starting in a very small and taking it job by job way and seeing where it went. ROB: It seems like very good timing. All of these video platforms emerged, and coming from a different perspective, you kind of got to take on being a video agency digital-first, where people probably had more TV experience. It's really interesting timing there, especially as all these video platforms have come around. I think we all know the key video platforms that we talked about and how Twitter has become, to an extent, a video platform, Facebook, Instagram, YouTube, etc., and then TikTok is in that conversation as well. Is there anything emerging that maybe is not quite in the mainstream conversation that we need to think about? JOHN: I'll say this. As I think about where the business is going, I feel somewhat stunned by the level of change that I think is upon us and the level of acceleration in technology and platform adaption and adoption. Every industry is moving towards, and evolving very quickly, especially since COVID, in a way that supports and needs more video content. If you think about obviously e-comm and omnichannel thinking around e-comm, if you think about the medical business, healthcare, it's becoming online and more digital. Work from home, IoT, driverless cars are going to need content inside them. I don't have my eye on anything new so much as trends that we've been tracking for a while just exploding, an inflection point on those trends, and the need for content. I think a lot of people think content's had a great run. People have been saying content is king for 15 years now, it's a cliché. But the truth is, I feel like we're ready for another upcycle in the demand for and consumption of content. I just see no end there. So that's our focus. Does that answer the question? It's not exactly something new, but it's what I'm thinking about. ROB: I think so. One thing that strikes me as you get into it is the absolute explosion of different formats and lengths. When you talked about the cutdowns earlier, it used to be a 30-second ad was normal and you knew the aspect ratio. But now you have square, portrait, landscape. Do you want 5, 10, 30 seconds? Are you injecting this ad in the middle of somebody playing a game? Where is this thing going? It seems like that continues to shift. You don't have to worry about Quibi, but you might have had to on ads that had to be able to be rotated to different aspect ratios. JOHN: We had to. Quibi was a big client of ours. [laughs] So yeah, we were very much up in their business and we did social for them. We've been thinking about these things for a while, and I think you're right; it's sometimes overwhelming to think about the proliferation of formats and lengths. Two things I'll say about that. One is that the core of what we do remains unchanged. You need to think about who your audience is, you need to think about who you are, and you have to think about what you want them to do and the best way to get them there, and you need to do that, at least for us, through content and storytelling. You still need a hook. You still need to make people laugh. You still need to tell a story, have a journey. Even as the formats and the aspect ratios change, those things remain the same. At a certain point you realize that it's helpful in some ways because you're like, okay, it hasn't changed that much. We're still doing essentially the same thing; we just need to make sure we have the expertise we need across these platforms, whether it's Twitter or Amazon, so that we know how they speak on those platforms. It also brings me to one other thing I like to talk about. A lot of times you'll hear people say with the amount of content becoming so overwhelming, people's attention spans have shrunk and people don't have time or interest in anything longer form. What you used to have to tell in 60 seconds and then 30 and then 15 and then 6, now you have to tell in 3 or the blink of an eye. I don't think that's true. I think there is an element of having to use the right format and length, the right platform, but you just need to think harder about how to make your content break through, about a hook, about something to get people's attention. Sometimes and in some ways the answer might be longer form content. I certainly reject the notion of a race to the briefest, shortest form content possible. ROB: Certainly understood on that. I've heard some conversations on how quickly you have to hook someone. Maybe they'll stick around, but do you have to set the hook sooner to earn the rest of their attention? JOHN: Well, that's true. It's true because people's thumbs are moving. Attention spans have changed. I do think that notion is very true. You do have to hook them because otherwise you'll lose them. ROB: I appreciate that I think you're holding strong to the value of, as you mentioned, storytelling, of creativity. It reminds me a little bit of these rules in the world of standup comedy. I think you're supposed to make them laugh every 6 seconds, and if you don't, then they'll not like you, and if you do, then they probably will like you. But then you have Dave Chapelle. Dave Chapelle gets to be himself, and he's not going to make you laugh every 6 seconds, but he has his own style that is nonetheless extremely popular. JOHN: I think that's a great point. The rules may be true and relevant, but the real artists break free of them and are able to operate outside them. Some things can be true and not true at the same time, and I think it's true whether it's the comedy rules or the rules of advertising. ROB: Indeed. John, looking at your background, looking at how you built up on the film side, I think that's interesting. This is not your first rodeo, starting a business. JOHN: That's right. ROB: You did that, you started over with Mustache; if you're looking back at what you've done, what have you learned that you might do differently if you were starting clean? JOHN: It's a really interesting question. I often think about myself say 10 years ago, and I often come to the conclusion, “What a dumbass you were 10 years ago. You really didn't know anything. If I had just had all the knowledge and experience then that I have now, I could've done so much more.” I think that's true now, but at the same time, all the experiences, all the choices, they were all made in a way that I'm happy with the way they played out. So, there's no one thing that stands out. I will say, though, one thing does stand out and that's diversity and inclusion. I think we've all come to understand the importance of that, and it's something that's been on my radar from the beginning of Mustache, but I didn't give it the attention that I should have in the early days. What I would say is it was very existential. You're young and you're hungry and you're small and you're desperate for any work. If someone wants to work with you, you're like, “Yeah, that's great. Let's go.” So you're less discerning. I had less time to think about it and really plan and do the work. I feel like maybe that is one thing that if I could go back and talk to myself 10 years earlier, I would've given myself that one bit of advice. I've found once we've done that, as we've done that over the years and gotten better at it over the course of the last 10 years, how beneficial it's been for the work and for the clients and for the culture. So that's something. ROB: What did the steps look like to start to turn that corner? I think we all understand the tyranny of the urgent, the “I have to solve this problem now. I need to hire this creative by next week or next month” or whatever it is. What did you put in place to get more intentional there and maybe recruit some people you might've otherwise overlooked? JOHN: That's really interesting because it never ends, especially in our business, which tends to be really fast and furious. A good chunk of our business is project-based. So, in some ways it's the realization that the perfect moment never comes. People talk about wanting to have kids but they're too busy, and they keep telling themselves they're too busy. People will say to them, “It'll never be the right time if that's how you think about it.” That's how I think about this. There's never a moment where I'm like, “Okay, I've checked off everything on my list. I've got it completely under control. Now I can sit back and do it right.” It just doesn't happen. You have to prioritize things and move things around. You have to do the things that you have to do, that feel like imperatives. I think for me, that was the shift. It was like, we're never not facing a client rush/crisis/huge opportunity that I have to focus on because we need to get it. What I had to do was figure out within that context how to move forward anyway with the things that matter. I think once that switch flipped and we were like, we're going to start building that into every choice and everything we do, then we started getting the results that that kind of work suggests. ROB: When you're on that topic, it makes me think back – we had an agency we talked to on this podcast at South by Southwest a couple of years ago. They're a neighbor of yours, but that doesn't mean you've heard of them just because you're in New York. The Soze Agency. Are you familiar with them? JOHN: Yeah, yeah. Isn't it a freelance style, like a loose affiliation or collection of creators or something like that? ROB: I believe they call it a co-op. When I first heard it, it rang as a very Brooklyn thing to say that you were a collective and whatever else. JOHN: I love the Keyser Söze reference. ROB: They're super, super intentional in this area, and I really have appreciated following them since they were on the podcast. But they have an equity model that is interesting. I think they're going to opensource – I don't know if they will or not. I don't mean to speak for them. Everyone vests in ownership, but then they don't take it with them when they leave, so it goes back into the pool and everybody gets to share. JOHN: Yeah, it's very interesting. I've thought about that over the years and struggled with how to pair that with the imperatives of running a small business in an epically fast-changing landscape. But I think it's really interesting, and I've certainly spent time thinking about if it could work, how it could work, what the problems are. In some ways, Mustache was a dictatorship in the sense that if I saw an opportunity or wanted to make a change, I just did it, and there's nothing faster than one person deciding to do something. And that speed was critical at times. But on the other hand, there's things that might've been lost, good choices and good opportunities that might have been missed because we didn't have a more collective style. So, it's a real head-scratcher in some ways. I see the upside; I get stuck on some of the downside. But I think there's something there and I think there's a future there. I just don't think I've figured out how to crack it exactly. ROB: Someone's going to have to pay some lawyers some money to figure it out, and that's a trick too. I think what's interesting is I have been previously very much in tech startup land, and there's a model there that's predicated around growth and around increasing valuations and giving equity. It just doesn't apply in a services firm. You can't hire somebody and give them 1% and then have them walk out the door a few years later. Then your cap table is just a mess. You can't keep giving people this promise of the unlimited upside. When a company goes from a $10 million valuation to a $100 million valuation, they can get away with giving away smaller and smaller chunks in a way that would seem silly in a services firm. JOHN: It's interesting you say that, Rob, because as you were saying, it also occurred to me that the valuations matter. If you have a billion dollar pie, it's a lot easier to split up. The other thing has to do with margins. We're in content/creative. It tends to be a very low margin, tight business. If you're not in the tech valuations, you at least need to have a business model that's geared towards really high margins, really fat profits, because that gives you a little more leeway to do things. And maybe that's self-serving in some way, like if you implement the model, you'll move towards a space that is more profitable. But I think you need one or the other. Those valuations or you need to be in a business that's not razor-thin margins, I think, to make it work. ROB: It's good to have the conversation. I hear from some people who say a services firm, you want 20-30% margins. I don't know how that holds up, but I think what you're saying about setting the sights high – it just gives you more freedom to execute. I think that's what you're hinting it. We went all virtual, and if your margins are good, when you have people coming from six different cities, you can talk about flying somewhere and meeting up. JOHN: That's right. ROB: If you don't have good margins, then you say “We're all going to hide in our caves and never meet each other.” JOHN: [laughs] That's right. So true. My reality. ROB: [laughs] John, when people want to get in touch with you and with Mustache Agency, how should they connect with you? JOHN: Our website is the best place to start, mustacheagency.com. There's plenty of different ways you can contact us from there. ROB: And people should go to that website. It's very visually stimulating. I think it puts your work in a very good light. JOHN: Thank you. ROB: I'm glad the work has gone into the front door there as well. Sometimes it's hard to spend the energy on yourself. JOHN: So true. ROB: Thank you so much for coming on the podcast, John. I think it's been helpful to learn from your journey and helpful to think about the areas of business, the lines of business you've chosen and how they synthesize together and where all this video, and particularly advertising, is going in the digital land. I really appreciate it. JOHN: Yeah, thanks for having me. It was a lot of fun. ROB: All right. Be well, John. Bye.  Thank you for listening. The Marketing Agency Leadership Podcast is presented by Converge. Converge helps digital marketing agencies and brands automate their reporting so they can be more profitable, accurate, and responsive. To learn more about how Converge can automate your marketing reporting, email info@convergehq.com, or visit us on the web at convergehq.com.

Ashley Logan is the Founder and CEO at Yakkety Yak, a full-service purpose-driven content marketing agency that provides blog writing, social media marketing, video production, and website design and development for brands and organizations that want to make the world a better place.  Ashley says that the agency's “sweet spot” is content creation and storytelling. She believes alignment with the greater good and “giving back” are two things that are necessary for changing the world. “You have to be purpose-driven,” Ashley says. “You have to stand for something.” A writer from age 5, Ashley graduated with an undergraduate degree in creative writing and landed a job selling for a private label candy manufacturer. She was  “a creative person trapped in a corporate world.” As she traveled around “slinging candy,” Ashley saw that widely different companies used the same words talk about themselves in the “digital space.” She decided she wanted a “bigger ticket” career and moved to commercial real estate.  To appease her creative drive, Ashley volunteered and created content for nonprofit organizations. Social media platforms were just starting to rise. She wondered, “How could you turn those social media engines into a marketing machine?” In 2012, Ashley finally understood that she needed to combine all of her “passions for business, storytelling, content, and nonprofit work.” She went back to school to pursue a master's degree in Journalism in a program renowned for teaching people how to write for target audiences.  Ashley officially launched Yakkety Yak in 2014 and took clients as they came . . . until she realized she could no longer tell stories and work hard for jerks. The agency now maintains a focus on content and storytelling for a far more restricted clientele:  Organizations that “do good” (nonprofits),  Have, as a component of their organization, the intention of “giving back” (perhaps a part of the company raises funds to donate to non-profits), or  Are amenable to adding a “do good” component to their organization (Yakkety Yak works with these organizations that do not yet have a purpose-driven mindset to help them define and build that “piece” into their company culture).  Ashley thinks it is important for its clients to inform people of their “contributions to the greater good” by “putting it out there in your story, putting it on your website, weaving it into your social media, holding your teams accountable, and shouting it from the rooftops.” She thinks high quality video will become an increasingly more powerful marketing vehicle. Ashley is working with a designer to “revamp” Yakkety Yak's office space with improved ventilation and flexible seating and intends to “open the doors” after Memorial Day. Ashley sees “the new office” as a safe place where “people can come and work if they want to escape” and gradually get people back together with flexible hours and a combination of in-person and remote work. She misses the “vibration” that comes from having a “team all together” but also notes that COVID has done wonders for work-life balance. Ashley is best reached on the agency's website at yakketyyak.com, where visitors can find links to all of the agency's social channels. Transcript Follows: ROB: Welcome to the Marketing Agency Leadership Podcast. I'm your host, Rob Kischuk, and I'm excited to be joined today by Ashley Logan. Ashley is the Founder and CEO at Yakkety Yak based in Chicago, Illinois. Welcome to the show, Ashley. ASHLEY: Thank you so much. I appreciate you having me here. ROB: Absolutely. Why don't you start off by telling us about Yakkety Yak and what makes the firm unique? ASHLEY: Yakkety Yak is a full-service content marketing agency based in Chicago. We do everything from blog writing, social media marketing, video production, website design and development – basically any mechanism to help our clients tell their stories, we work with them. I guess what makes us unique is that we focus on working with brands and businesses that care about doing good. We're a totally purpose-driven agency working with brands and businesses that want to make the world a little bit better. ROB: What does that look like when we actually get down to a client? What does a client look like who has this purpose-driven focus? Are there maybe some examples you can share of how they're getting out in the world? ASHLEY: Absolutely. That can be nonprofit organizations, of course. They fall into that category. We work with many patient-facing organizations like the American Migraine Foundation, the American Brain Foundation, and other brands in that category. But purpose-driven doesn't have to be nonprofit; it can be an organization whose culture focuses on giving back. They have volunteer events where they donate proceeds to a nonprofit organization. Ultimately, that alignment with a greater good is our sweet spot because one, it helps with storytelling, but also, in this day and age, giving back is such an important part of changing the world, making it a little better. ROB: Finding that sort of specialization and alignment can sometimes be a journey. How did you come to focus on that as a specialty? ASHLEY: That's such a great question. When I founded the agency back in 2014, we didn't have the luxury of selecting the types of clients that we worked with. I'm sure you've heard this a lot with your guests. We worked with some people that we probably didn't want to work with. Ultimately it came down to that if we're going to tell stories and work hard, we don't want to work with jerks. [laughs] So we didn't. We stopped working with jerks, and that's it in a nutshell. Is that terrible? ROB: No. I mean, who wants to work with jerks? I don't know anybody who says they do. I haven't heard that strategy yet. I'd be fascinated if we have somebody listening who has a strategy built around working with jerks and charging a premium for it. I'm here for that conversation. ASHLEY: [laughs] I love it. So that's really what it came down to. We also help businesses who don't have a purpose-driven mindset to build that into their company culture. Maybe they came to us and wanted to think about “How do we put our story out there in a way that has more employee retention, that we can attract more visibility from our clients?” We always say you've got to be purpose-driven. You've got to stand for something. So, we've also helped coach our clients into getting into this space, too. ROB: What does that transformation look like? Maybe an example of where a company was starting. The purpose is usually there, much like your own firm; you just have to find your way to it. ASHLEY: That's exactly it. Just setting the intention, putting it out there in your story, putting it on your website, weaving it into your social media, and holding your teams accountable too, and just shouting it from the rooftops. That's especially applicable to clients of ours that aren't necessarily nonprofits but are doing something to give back – make sure that their employees know about the work they're doing at an executive level and then down to a grassroots level. A little bit less in COVID time but coordinating fundraising events or teambuilding events around giving back. ROB: It sounds like it would almost pull you towards being involved in – if an organization didn't have core values, you might not even be working on marketing. You might be working almost on their internals before they get to the externals. Do you end up getting pulled in that deep? ASHLEY: Sometimes, yes, we do. But I think that primarily our sweet spot is in the content creation and the storytelling. That's where we really like to be. Certainly, we will help clients define their brand strategy, and that includes core values and messaging. But we definitely like to focus on the story element. ROB: Understood. You talked about not having as much of a focus when you started, but let's even go a little bit further behind that. What led you to have the sort of audacity to create your own job and create some other jobs along the way? How did you get into that lane? ASHLEY: I love that word. I love the word “audacious.” Let's see, I've been a writer for my whole life, ever since I was in kindergarten, I think. I won a Young Authors contest for a short story I wrote called “Crystal Met the Ogre.” I still have it. Kind of funny. But I've been a writer my whole life, and I loved to tell people stories, but I also had a knack for business and trying to create processes and connect people. After I finished my undergrad at University of Tennessee – I was a creative writing major; I worked at the school paper – I ended up in a sales position. I wasn't expecting that I was going to be in sales, but also that I was going to like it so much. I started off working for a candy manufacturer based in Chicago. It was a great experience. I was 22, had half the country as my territory, was flying all over, slinging candy. But I wanted a little bit more of a high-volume sale, and I moved into commercial real estate. Through that experience, I was a creative person trapped in a corporate world and interacting with people at the C level. What I found was that all of these brands and businesses didn't know how to talk about themselves. They were all innovative. Every single one of them called themselves “innovative.” All of them called themselves “streamlined.” I realized it was a problem that in this digital space, people didn't have the words to differentiate themselves from one another. You could close your eyes and hear across multiple industries and see people using the same exact words to describe themselves, with no differentiation. So that was an observation. In the meantime, I was volunteering for nonprofit organizations in Chicago and helping them with content creation. This was that sweet spot when social media was just starting to go from being that you needed a .edu email address to that anyone could sign up for Facebook at this time. How do you turn those social media engines into a marketing machine? I cut my teeth on that through nonprofit work and ultimately decided that I was onto something and needed to combine all of my passions for business, storytelling, content, and nonprofit work. So I left my career in commercial real estate and went back to school to earn a master's in journalism from Northwestern University's Medill School of Journalism. They have a great program for writing for a target audience. I simultaneously founded Yakkety Yak, and the rest is sort of history. ROB: That's a great upscaling moment on the writing there. I like that. I wonder a little bit – I'm just going to pull on a thread here that's a little random, but we'll see where it goes – if you don't mind me asking, what was the candy? Who were you selling to, and what made it desirable for them to buy this candy? ASHLEY: [laughs] It was a private label contract manufacturing. That's what we pitched. I worked with Cost Plus World Market and Harry & David, and we were doing premium toffees. We would produce it for them under their own private label brand. Coming from Chicago, we'd make the candy and then it would be in like a Harry & David package, for example. They also did those really beautiful Christmas candies, ribbon candies. That was it. No chocolates and no gummies, but pretty much everything else. It was cool. There was a factory. The CEO of the company gave me my first job out of school, tolerated me, trained me in sales. He actually passed away a couple of years ago, and he just made such a positive impact in my life, giving me this opportunity. It was pretty cool getting to walk through the candy factory and make friends with the factory workers and be part of creating something from end to end. ROB: That's very cool. Those are typically, in my reckoning, pretty high end, nice candies. It's a creative process. It's not what it sounds like at first when you say sales. I think we all sometimes miss doing tangible work, something you can put your hands on and something you can see sitting on a shelf. ASHLEY: Yeah, it was cool. And it was fun. It was my first experience in business. We would go to these candy conferences, and I was the youngest by far. I was the only female, interacting at Happy Hour with the good ol' boys who'd been in the business for 40 years. It was fun. It taught me a lot about how to defend myself. It taught me a lot about how to keep composure as a woman in business and overcome challenges. That experience grew me really well for commercial real estate, which was a little bit more of a cutthroat type of industry. ROB: Right. You went from a boys' club to a mean boys' club. ASHLEY: [laughs] I did. ROB: Even trickier. Maybe a little bit gentler in a more creative space. But I think what's interesting is the through line is, as we all know as an agency owner, you are selling, but it sounds like a common thing across your sales experience is you're really helping people get what they want – which is much easier than trying to convince them they need something they're not aware of. ASHLEY: I think so, yeah. ROB: Very interesting. Ashley, as you reflect on – you said 2014 was the starting of Yakkety Yak? ASHLEY: I have two dates. 2012 is when I founded the agency and I went back to school, and I had a few very small clients at the time. But 2014 is when I hired my first employee and Yakkety Yak became my full-time job. So I use that as my real date. ROB: Got it. Over the course of that 7+ year time, what are some things you've learned that you might do differently if you were starting from scratch? ASHLEY: That's a great question. My journey has been really interesting. I built the agency from scratch. I had no outside investors. I'm pretty risk positive; I'm comfortable in a space of jumping and leaping to the next level. It doesn't make me nervous. I don't spend a lot of time dwelling on mistakes made because I do believe that every experience leads you to the next, and you've got to build upon it and take with you the tidbits that help make you stronger. For example, looking at my career trajectory, the candy business, while I knew it wasn't my life's passion, that sales experience helped take me to the next level. Any adversity that I faced in commercial real estate, I took that with me to become a founder and CEO and be gutsy as hell. But one thing that stands out for what I would do differently is I think in the area of hiring. I have worn every hat in the agency, and I wish that I'd had more help sooner because that would've helped me scale faster. I haven't mentioned this part yet, but I've got three really little kids – and a COVID baby. It would've been great – when my second son was born, it was 2018; I was 38 weeks pregnant, and I had an employee resign, which meant that I was not going to get any maternity leave. I had my baby on a Tuesday and I was back to work on Monday. If I had built a deeper bench, then I would've been able to have a little bit more balance early on. ROB: What do you think it was that prevented you from building up that team? ASHLEY: I think when you're an agency starting out and you're competing in a market like Chicago – we have some major players here. I'm going up against, from a benefits standpoint, a salary standpoint, and a credibility standpoint, some powerhouses. It took a little bit of time to earn some credibility and name recognition. People, I will say, do remember the name Yakkety Yak, so I am proud of that. Recruiting top talent takes time and building up a team and building that referral network where people say “Hey, that's a place where I really want to be and where I want to work.” ROB: Got it. What were your first couple of hires when you went from a team of one to a team of more? ASHLEY: Oh gosh, one of my first hires was – and he's still one of my favorite employees; he moved back to California and is doing some really great things right now – a graphic designer. I had the way with the words, and I was bringing in the business but also doing a lot of the content creation, and Curtis was doing the graphic design elements. And then support from a writing standpoint, so I eventually started to be able to outsource that and build a team. I shouldn't say outsource; I mean delegate. That's the word I mean. And finally, 2018 was a breakthrough year for me where I finally was able to build – we had more than 15 people. Now we're a team of 20. It's great to have such amazing talent at the agency now. I wish that I had done that sooner. But when you're bootstrapping your own business, it's kind of part of the deal, I think. ROB: Congratulations on that growth. You mentioned a COVID baby, so I'm sort of expecting, by your story, that maybe you did get some maternity leave this time around? ASHLEY: [laughs] I didn't. Well, lesson learned from the second child, but we were in crisis – not crisis, but I didn't think that it would be good for me to have no visibility to my team when we're all suddenly working remotely and in the middle of a global pandemic. So, I made sure to still be around for internal purposes, but I did remove myself from some client-facing work for a period of time. I had my baby Memorial Day weekend, and by Labor Day my clients were seeing me on the regular again. ROB: Got it. I can definitely see a case for visibility to a team in a time where everybody's in uncharted territory. ASHLEY: Sure. ROB: Where are you and your team in terms of office? Did you have an office, do you have an office? Are you going to have an office? Are you keeping the same geographic footprint moving forward? How are you thinking about physical space in the context of Yakkety Yak? ASHLEY: That's such a great question and something that's so relevant right now. We have this awesome office in a loft building right near the train station, Union Station in Chicago, and it's great. I love the space. It's got that brick and timber feel, lots of natural light, open area. But we jammed a lot of people into that space. I'm currently working with a designer, Lauren Ashley Allan. She's a really awesome up-and-coming designer. We're revamping and rethinking our space so that it is comfortable for people when we return to work. Flexible seating options is what we're focusing on, in addition to little booths so that people who are a little more conscious or want more privacy can work in a confined space that has ventilation. The goal is that we're not going to mandate that the team come back to work, but we are going to open our doors after Memorial Day, and I'll be there and give people a place that they can come and work if they want to escape and gradually start getting people back together. I think what I've been noticing is I miss the vibration, like the good vibes that come from having a team all together. So, we're putting some thought and intention into how we're designing the space, and we'll move forward from there with some flexible hours, combination of remote work and in-person. ROB: Right, but you're probably not going to have folks moving to Portugal and being fully remote, that you could think of? ASHLEY: I don't think so. [laughs] ROB: [laughs] It sounds like you're being very intentional about your space, which is compelling, and it sounds like even within the office environment, you're really differentiating that work environment. Knowing Chicago, knowing where you are, you have a benefit of accessibility and transit and that urban lifestyle for those who choose it. And obviously, in Chicago, you can get into the city from very, very far out on a train if you want. And then not knowing the specific block you're on or whatever, during normal times, there's probably a good vibe, good places to grab lunch together, grab Happy Hour together. It's not just some nameless office park. ASHLEY: Right, exactly. That camaraderie is just important. I really felt for people – especially those who are in there, mid to late twenties, single, living by themselves, and stuck at home during COVID. That's a lot for people. I think that we've got a lot of healing to do as a country when it comes to finally starting to emerge back into everyday life. I want to be there and I want to create a safe space for my team to come in and get work done and feel welcome and safe and so we can continue doing the excellent work that we've been doing and build off of that energy. ROB: That sounds excellent. How's your team thinking about that? I know everybody's all over the spectrum, at least from people I know. Some people would be in a closet together tomorrow and some people are waiting until they get a shot or even longer. What's the range of what you're seeing? ASHLEY: A range, you're exactly right. I'm giving people space to make the decisions on their own for now. We continue to check in on it. I've said that in 2021, at this point, we're probably not going to do a mandate to go back to work. But we will open the doors and encourage people to come in if they want to. The beauty of the transition that's taken place from a remote workforce standpoint is that now we see that we can work remotely, that if you've got to coach your kid's softball team in the afternoon, you can work from home, and that's going to be fine. We're going to be able to connect, and no one's going to miss anything. I think this has done wonders for the work-life balance, and I hope at least at Yakkety Yak, that's a trend we're going to really continue to let permeate our office culture. ROB: I love the intentionality of it. I'm a little bit jealous. I'm a little bit more of a “ready, fire, aim” sort of person. Over the course of the past year, the last four people we've hired have all been remote, and we're going to figure it out later. I'm hoping that late fall/early winter, we'll get together and visit one of our team who lives down in Chile. It's completely different. Walking away from the office and loading the furniture into our basement kind of made it real, you know? ASHLEY: How did that feel for you? ROB: I am very comfortable with the change. The thing I don't like in my basement is there's no people there. There's fresh air and light. It's a little rustic, shall we say. I do miss the getting together, but if part of it means that instead of being in the office and doing little things, we get to do something more pronounced like spending a week in Chile and getting some different gatherings, I'm interested in it. It's a change of pace for sure. Ashley, when you think about the future of Yakkety Yak, the future of marketing and how you're working with businesses that give back, what are you excited about in the future that's coming up? ASHLEY: I couldn't be more excited about video. We are doing some really, really, really incredible work when it comes to especially the patient space, telling people's stories about how they've been impacted by various health conditions, diseases, disorders. I love using video as a mechanism for storytelling, regardless of the target audience. There are so many cool things now with TikTok and how to use visual elements to show a progression, and people are doing that every day in their homes as amateurs, and how that's going to translate to professional level videos I think is something that is so cool and something you're going to see exploding in marketing space over the next 18 months. ROB: One thing I wonder about, if you have an opinion on it, is when I think about audio and the way it's going, I see a lot more attention going into the sound on versus sound off experience and accommodating people who might be muted. What direction do you see that going? Are we going towards where every video's going to adapt, or are we going to where we're assuming that so many people have some sort of Bluetooth headset in that they're going to have audio on? How is that trending? ASHLEY: That's a really great question. I'm going to answer it in two parts. One, I think that the pandemic has shown everyone the importance of quality A/V, like when you can't hear someone on Zoom or there's a delay in a recording when you're watching things virtually. I think that high quality video and audio is something that's more of a priority than it's ever been. With that said, I think it depends on the platform. We wouldn't necessarily, for a virtual fundraiser or virtual event, have all of the text scrolling at the bottom of the experience, but when it comes to ads and what's happening when people are scrolling through Instagram, I think it's absolutely vital to have the words there because people are scrolling through Instagram in their beds at night when they're not necessarily wearing headphones and they don't want to wake up their partner, or they have babies that they're feeding and don't want to scare the babies. That's my personal experience, but I think it applies across a multitude of scenarios. And people are multitasking, too. They might have one window open or be on a conference call or a Zoom call and scrolling through Instagram. You can't have that dependence on the audio in those scenarios.  So, when it comes to social media, the text is vital. When it comes to other experiences where you're holding people's attention for a little bit longer, then I think you're okay without it.  ROB: Very, very interesting. Thank you for illuminating the topic. Ashley, when people want to find and connect with you and with Yakkety Yak, where should they go to find you? ASHLEY: Our website is the best spot to find us because you've got links there to all of our social media channels. You can find us at yakketyyak.com. The spelling isn't necessarily intuitive. ROB: How did you choose the spelling of Yakkety Yak? ASHLEY: [laughs] I don't know. I think it was probably the domain that was available at the time. But it was important that we were Y-A-K and not Y-A-C-K, so we went from there. ROB: Perfect. Ashley, thank you so much for joining the podcast and sharing your experience. I definitely wish you the best as you get that revamped office up and humming and get everybody back working together in person. ASHLEY: Thanks, Rob. I really appreciate your time today. This was fun. ROB: Thank you so much, Ashley. Bye. Thank you for listening. The Marketing Agency Leadership Podcast is presented by Converge. Converge helps digital marketing agencies and brands automate their reporting so they can be more profitable, accurate, and responsive. To learn more about how Converge can automate your marketing reporting, email info@convergehq.com, or visit us on the web at convergehq.com.

Melanie Querry owns Beyond Spots and Dots, a full-service advertising agency that frames its work around analysis, keeps client budgets on target, and utilizes proven marketing success in one industry to help businesses in other industries grow. Spots and Dots has been on the Inc. 5000 list five times.   In this interview Melanie discusses how her agency helps clients understand the customer journey and how prioritizing and implementing tactics will do exactly what a client wants . . . and meet budget constraints. Melanie claims that, for a roughly equivalent impression count, digital marketing can cost one-third of what traditional marketing costs. Still, all the layers have to work together. “You have to have synergy within your marketing budget,” she says. Tactic selection and prioritization are critical, customized to meet a client's needs, and are based on a mix of Beyond Spots and Dots' experience, knowledge, and research.   As an example, Melanie talks about geofencing, creating a technological fence to target programmed advertising to a specific audience. Another tactic she presents is secondary search retargeting, which uses proprietary software/connections to capture someone searching for information on a third-party website and then follows that individual with ads on the internet. Melanie informs us that “there are three satellites above us collecting every bit of data that we are doing on our cellphone, our laptops, our TVs, our computers, our desktops.” Legally, large companies (Oracle, BlueKai) can disperse that collected information. Beyond Spots and Dots is one of only a few companies allowed to utilize the information . . . which they can pass on to their clients so that their clients can target these potential customers.   Melanie wanted to be in advertising from an early age. After she earned her advertising degree, she took a job selling advertising at KDKA-TV in Pittsburgh, then another with a cable station to learn “the cable side.” Melanie says these organizations “didn't know about their clients, didn't know about their customers,” and only focused on rating points and the number of “spots” they got. She left the cable station almost on a whim (just because it was “time”), started her agency as a media buying firm that would be “Beyond the Spots and Dots” focus of her previous employers, and took on a Pittsburgh mega car dealer as a client “for the cash flow.”  Melanie convinced the dealer to fund a digital campaign at a time when even car manufacturers were not “doing digital.” The car dealer's business grew so significantly that it eventually hired ten people for an internal digital department. Melanie jokes that. while the dealership provided sorely needed cash flow in those early years, she was not able to “use them for profits.” Today, Beyond Spots and Dots provides advertising, public relations, marketing, branding, and digital services. Once things are “back to normal,” Melanie looks forward to reopening the agency's physical locations in Pittsburgh and Columbus, OH – she prefers working with clients face-to-face “120% over what we're doing currently.” Interestingly, even with clients “everywhere,” the agency does not charge clients for its travel expenses – Melanie considers travel as a way to reinvest in her company.  Melanie can be reached on LinkedIn, Twitter, and Facebook and on her agency's website at Beyondspotsanddots.com.  Transcript Follows: ROB: Welcome to the Marketing Agency Leadership Podcast. I'm your host, Rob Kischuk, and I'm excited to be joined today by Melanie Querry, owner of Beyond Spots and Dots based in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. Welcome to the podcast, Melanie. MELANIE: Thank you. Thank you for having me. I certainly appreciate it. ROB: It's a pleasure to have you here. Tell us about Beyond Spots and Dots. Where does your firm excel?  MELANIE: We really excel in helping businesses grow. We understand what it takes to grow. We've been on the Inc. 5000 list five times, which we're very proud of, and hope to continue to be there again in the future. We are able to take our experiences and really utilize the marketing efforts and successes that we have had with various industries and apply those to other industries. Our real growth has been in the digital world. We started as a media buying firm, so I kind of laugh and say that we do media buying with our eyes closed. However, the digital media buying is new and evolving, and we've been doing it for 15 years that we've been in business – which is great. Not many agencies can say that. So, we really excel at implementing those tactics for businesses, but helping businesses understand where their budgeting should be. I think what makes us different is that we really stay in line with budgets for clients and on behalf of clients and rein them in when they get out of line with budgets or things that they want to implement. Something that makes us very different is while we have super killer creative and award-winning creative, we really take an analytical approach to everything we do, including creative. That's pretty different from most agencies. Most agencies want to just be creative shops or digital firms, and we really do take a full-service approach. ROB: Got it. Congratulations on the 15 years, on the Inc. 5000 list. Those are all things – it doesn't pay the bills, but it is a recognition of that ongoing growth that you also seek for your clients. You mentioned being able to transfer tactics and strategies from some industries that we might think of perhaps to some industries we might not think of having such successful digital and media tactics. Is that the case? Are there some unexpected industries you've found yourself in the middle of? MELANIE: Yes. We really don't want to put all of our eggs in one basket. We started in 2006, and in 2008 had the economy fall out beneath us. Nothing like COVID, but certainly at the time, and through those years, we learned a lot and a great deal. What we did learn is not to put all of our eggs in one basket. We pride ourselves on working in various industries. Business is business, and while industries do have niche audiences or niche ways of advertising or marketing, there are still businesses that are being run through operations that really follow through all types of business. We have been able to successfully help businesses grow in various industries, but some of the industries that have been unique that we didn't seek out, if you will, have been property management, for example. That was one where we didn't seek it out. They sought us out. But we were able to be very successful with one property management company, and it filtered through to many others because of the tactics we implemented at a low cost and we were able to help them grow. ROB: In that case, were they seeking more properties to manage? Were they seeking tenants, renters? Not to focus in too deeply, but as a means of exploring what you do. MELANIE: Sure. Their goal is to seek out renters. They have several properties around the country, and near one of our offices – we have an office in Columbus and also Baltimore. In the Columbus market, they wanted to sell out a particular building, which was very specific, and they did it so quickly when they started working with us that they actually shut their advertising off early, but then diverted their dollars to a completely different market. That was really interesting and fun. It's fun for us. ROB: And probably meaningful for them. Behind the scenes, not always, but a lot of times in the real estate world, having something fully leased or above a certain percentage is a meaningful financial milestone. It lets you collateralize or sell the property. It's a big deal beyond just filling the space. But then on the “who you're targeting side,” finding a place, whether it's an office or a residence, is a customer journey. What does that journey look like, and how do you tackle people along that journey? MELANIE: That's a great question. You're speaking my language, Rob. [laughs] We do take that customer journey fully into consideration when we are making a recommendation for any type of creative assets or messaging and also the placement of the ads themselves, and whether it's a recommendation to do PR versus traditional marketing or advertising versus some kind of new media. In targeting, it's really fun to look at the customer journey because you have these five steps, if you will, from the point of time when someone is not even familiar with your service or product all the way to the point of no return where they have to make a decision and their decision is either “let's do it / buy it,” whatever it is you're asking them to do, or “let's not.” That customer journey has steps throughout in between those two aspects or behaviors, and there are advertising tactics that make sense for certain parts of that journey. In the very beginning, when you're trying to just make someone aware of your product, your book, your property that you have available or whatever it might be that you're selling, there are tactics that work better for that part of the customer journey versus the middle of the journey where they're now aware, they might be talking to their friends about you, they're doing their research, which is part of that journey – and then they're trying to figure out what makes sense for them and what's best for them, and whether or not they're going to buy. We utilize that customer journey for everything that we do, and we're always presenting that to businesses to understand the different parts of the journey. A lot of people will come to us and say, “We just want an awareness campaign,” and I ask them, “Why?” That is valid and relevant, and sometimes an awareness campaign is all they want or all they think they can afford, so we help them to understand that journey so that they understand the different tactics within. ROB: Right. It would seem deeper in the funnel, there's some tactics you can't afford to not do. I can imagine – and I'm just making things up here, because I don't run, let's say, an apartment complex – but if someone comes and they book a tour, they're so deep into that funnel, two things seem true to me. Number one, it seems like a lot of businesses – and I'll broaden this beyond real estate – would find it hard to operationalize the information of who has booked a tour in a timely manner. But it also seems like one of the best ways you could possibly spend your money is, let's say, remarketing to an email list of people who have visited you in the past X months. How do they operationalize that successfully? Or am I way off, number one? Number two, if I'm in the neighborhood, how do you help people meet some of those time-sensitive communications that would need to happen to execute on that sort of thing? MELANIE: We try to implement new media because of the technology behind it. Depending on a business's budget, our job is to help them understand those tactics that they can implement to do exactly what you're asking within the budget. Based on our experience and based on our knowledge and based on research, we will help that business to prioritize those tactics. For example, a tactic might be geofencing, which is one of the new ways of advertising through programmatic advertising. We can literally draw a fence, if you will – it's technology for sure, but you are drawing a fence around something. We've drawn fences on roads before, trying to reach people driving into a college when a competitive college wants to reach those potential students. We have drawn fences around convention centers, trying to target tradeshows for particular audiences. So, the geofencing is really cool. That's one tactic that we can utilize to grab people now. With COVID, obviously things have changed with geofencing because people aren't out and about and aren't going to these big events or aren't going to big tradeshows. That will start again, but there are other tactics. There's another tactic that we can utilize called secondary search retargeting, and that's one of the newest and latest and greatest, and a lot of fun to work with. We had a company that was very niche; they were implementing services to small to medium size businesses for Mac users specifically, but for companies frankly like ours, where we have mostly PC-based computers, and we have a few Macs because we have designers, and they need their Macs. This company would target businesses that were utilizing both PC and Mac, and they were specialists in the Mac realm. When you buy a Mac at the Apple Store, you can go online to search for companies like this to help us network the Macs with the PCs. A lot of companies are getting into this because people do like their Macs and they're very loyal to their Macs. This particular company was able to utilize secondary search retargeting by targeting third party searches. This is outside of the Google world and outside of just your search bar in Google. We've also been able to utilize on the spot, like you're asking, secondary search retargeting for students. College students are searching online for lots of things, for different programs, for different schools. they're searching in all of these third parties out there, and we're able to actually tap into those searches. It's really wild. ROB: What does that mean? Explore the tactic with me a little bit. Does that mean you're on something like US News, World Report, looking at college rankings, and you're searching for something and somehow that's able to feed back into search targeting? Where does this information come from? MELANIE: That's right. To give another example, probably an easier one to visualize is real estate. We have worked in the real estate realm and been very successful with that industry as well. A secondary search tactic that's really cool allows us to target – let's say you're buying a home and I'm a real estate company, and I want your business because you're buying a home and I've got homes to sell. But you are really hard to catch unless I can catch you through geotargeting by visiting other open houses. Right now, during COVID, we know that's not happening so much around the country. There are open houses, but they're few and far between. So. a different technology you can use is this secondary search retargeting. You might be searching on Realtor.com, and if you're searching for a home value or the home sale price, then I can capture you doing that search on that third party website. And when I capture you doing that through my technology, I can physically follow you with ads through the internet, which is the retargeting part. The way that that's done, to answer your question, is there are three satellites above us collecting every bit of data that we are doing on our cellphone, our laptops, our TVs, our computers, our desktops. All of our actions are being collected through this data, and huge companies such as BlueKai and Oracle now legally are allowed to spit that information back out. Companies like ours – and there are only a few companies like ours around the country that are allowed to utilize this information – we're able to use that data of that behavior from someone like you and give it to our real estate company and target those people. It is wild. It's pretty cool. ROB: That's remarkable. There's great power and there's great responsibility. I feel like I need to go close my blinds or something. MELANIE: Yes. [laughs] ROB: It's really just what I type into the computer that's probably the problem here. Take me back a little bit, Melanie. Tell us about where Beyond Spots and Dots came into existence. What led you to start running your own business that was not by any means guaranteed to be a multi-time Inc. 5000 company and so on? MELANIE: As a young child, I always wanted to have an advertising agency. And I don't know that I even knew what an advertising agency was at the time or what an agency really did, but I followed that. I probably at the time thought of more of the creative side, which is what most people think of when you think of an advertising agency. I really followed that through school. I got a degree in advertising. Back then, there were only three colleges across the country that actually offered a degree in advertising doing creative and media buying. Not many colleges and universities offered that then, but they do now, which is great. Once I graduated, of course, at that time I learned that TV was the most complicated of all media, and when doing media buying, TV was the most complex. So, I really wanted to learn about the inner workings of TV. I graduated from college, I moved to Pittsburgh – being a Penn Stater, I got to know Pittsburgh when I was very young – and started at KDKA-TV, which was the first TV station ever. That was really powerful to me. I worked like a dog as an entry level person. At the time, they also didn't allow entry level employees, so I really had to show them what I was made of to be able to even keep my job. I barely made a salary at the time. I think I made more in college waiting tables than I did at my first job at KDKA-TV. [laughs] I was going to power through it. After KDKA, I went to the cable side because I wanted to know and understand both sides of TV, broadcast and cable. One day I decided, okay, there's never a real good time, so it's as good as any. I put in my four weeks' notice and I just quit. I resigned cold turkey. I didn't take clients. I didn't do anything like that. I just stopped one day and resigned, and the next day I said, okay, I've got to figure out how to start a business. I started making phone calls to the state on how to register a business, and “What the heck is my name going to be?” When I worked in these big mammoth companies, Comcast and CBS Network, I worked with big agencies, global agencies, and they didn't know anything about their clients. They just didn't know about their customers. All the media buyers cared about were rating points and “How many spots am I getting?” The name actually came pretty easy to me. Beyond Spots and Dots became the name because I wanted to go beyond that. I wanted to go beyond the number of spots someone's getting and the rating points they're getting. And the name stuck. The first day of the business, I went out to celebrate and I met who would become my husband, which was awesome. ROB: Wow. Good day. MELANIE: Yeah. He was a finance major and he helped me with the books, and as I got revenue in, I needed someone to help me with that side of it, the business side. He ended up coming on board, we got married, and now we're a full-service firm. At the time, he was already developing websites and doing Google ads. So, Day 1, we picked up website development and Google advertising, which was really great. ROB: What did those first few customers look like? Who did you start working with initially? MELANIE: I made phone calls, of course, Day 1, and said, “I now have an advertising agency. I would love an opportunity to work with you and to handle your advertising.” I was willing to do what it took to get business as far as services that I wasn't familiar with. I was willing to learn new services. One was a mega car dealer in Pittsburgh. I had talked to them about some Google advertising, and at the time, manufacturers weren't doing that. So, I implemented a digital campaign for them 15 years ago. In order to get their business, which was big, I needed the cash flow. They needed someone that knew digital, and it was a win-win – except that from a cash flow standpoint, I was able to use them as cash flow; I just wasn't able to use them for profits. [laughs] I felt that it was a necessary evil. I loved working with the general manager there, and I knew that I could help their business grow, and we did. We were able to take their business to a digital standpoint that, at the time, neither manufacturers nor car dealers were able to do. They were able to hire 10 internal people as a digital department, which was unheard of at the time. This was during the time right before the fallout in 2008, so yeah, pretty cool and definitely a good story and something that I look back on, for sure. ROB: Right. What did the budget of a car dealership like that look like at the time for traditional media? Has their overall ad budget changed much, or has it just shifted a percentage to digital? MELANIE: Certainly, the traditional media spend was big. It was bigger. That's the beauty about digital; you don't actually have to spend as much in digital. You just don't, and you can reach – the impression count is similar by spending a third of the amount. Traditional media is more expensive on a cost per spot basis or a cost per impression basis. Our job is to help the client understand all of that and what that means and how they should be spending their money. So there always was a bigger spend for them specifically in traditional, and at the time, of course, the digital was just really hitting. I mean, 14-15 years ago, digital wasn't that big. You didn't have to have it. You dabbled in it and you knew it was coming and you knew it was out there. So, we helped them to utilize some of this new media at the time. ROB: What was someone like that spending on traditional per month? Was it $10,000, $50,000, $100,000? What's the ballpark? Or am I even low? I don't know. MELANIE: This particular dealer had multiple manufacturers, multiple brands, and each manufacturer would offer them incentives, and they had budgets that they had to spend by manufacturer. So, it would vary. In general, a dealer like that could spend anywhere from $10,000 to $100,000 a month. It truly varies. It varies throughout the year, it varies by the incentives the dealer is receiving, and it varies by the number of cars they have on the lot. There're so many variables when it comes to spending for something like that. ROB: It's helpful even just to know a general direction. I've certainly seen an increased appetite for digital, and I've seen even new real estate developments looking for very sophisticated website buildouts and that sort of thing. It starts to make sense when you put it in the context of the traditional ad budgets. If they've started to turn the corner on digital, you can start to understand that increased degree of investment in some of the places – a website used to be an afterthought. You might not even have one for a development, and now it seems to be a hub of activity. MELANIE: Sure. A website is a walking salesperson. I don't care what you're selling or what you're offering, any industry should have a decent website because that's where people go. And even social media. We find, in our experience – and I'm kind of floored by it, but it is what it is – people will go to social media. They'll go to a business Facebook page before they ever even get to the website. Which is also very interesting in my mind. To your point, the layering of dollars so that you can layer your tactics – your marketing tactics, your advertising tactics – the layering is what's really critical. When you have a budget – and we've worked with very small budgets and have put people on TV before, even with a smaller budget. It's all about the layering and where you're going to run and what the messaging is, and it all works together. It really has to be cohesive. I feel like the word “synergy” is so cliché, but it's true. You have to have synergy within your own marketing budget. ROB: Really interesting threads to pull on there, Melanie. When you look back at the history of Beyond Spots and Dots, what are some things you have learned along the way that you might do differently if you were starting anew? MELANIE: I wish I would've started sooner. [laughs] I had this in the back of my mind. I'm very fortunate to have started when I did. Today's my birthday, actually. ROB: Happy birthday. MELANIE: I'm turning 45, and I'm blessed to have what I have and to have been able to work this hard thus far. I have a child now. We have a little kiddo. But prior to that, working your tail off – I wish I started sooner. I wish I'd started earlier because having the energy and not having a family at that time and being able to work the 80 hours I used to work before kids – it's hard to do that. As you get older, it's tiring. So, I would recommend just doing it. You only live once. I think that's one thing. For the future, growth. Growth is important. We plan to get back where we were. We were on a roll. We have good planning. We've got the tools internally to be able to expand and scale at this point. So, we do plan to open other offices. We have an office in Baltimore and Columbus right now, and Pittsburgh, obviously; that's our headquarters. But we do want to keep growing. We want to continue to help mentor others and also continue to grow and help businesses grow. ROB: How do you think about that office planting strategy? Is it rooted in some of your clientele having a local base and being able to be in person with someone? Do you spin up a small lease, or are you in WeWork land? How do you think about the planting strategy? MELANIE: Part of it is a real estate strategy with respect to investing, and that's a whole other conversation. As we diversify our own portfolio, if you will, personally speaking – and from a business standpoint – real estate is important to us. Long term, I don't plan to purchase real estate all over for office buildings. I do have to tell you, you kind of hit the nail on the head with respect to having an office and then working with a local client. We've lost business, presentations we've made, because businesses want an agency that's right in their backyard. When COVID hit, I thought to myself, does this change the way businesses believe they can do business? For example, we own our building currently in Pittsburgh, and we have an empty building right now because we have our whole staff working from home. We will keep them working from home as long as we feel that we need to, to keep everybody safe. Hopefully, that ends soon, but the reality of it is, we are doing business and conducting business all over the world from home. There are a lot of securities that go behind that, and we're dealing with a lot of data and customers' data and customers' information. The security has changed, of course. But does it change the way businesses think in the fact that we could do business – I don't have to be right in Columbus to do business for you or to handle your native or your advertising. It's an interesting open question that I ask myself as well. ROB: I understand that. I think there will always be a certain scope and scale of client that you're going to want to go see in person. When everything's normal, there's just a certain size of client that you're going to win more or not lose if you're giving them some attention in person. MELANIE: Agreed. ROB: I'm a firm believer in that. I agree, it's a whole other topic that I think we'll probably pass exploring on this podcast. Most people don't want to talk a lot about profits, but profits are important. I come originally from a software background and now also have some services work that we do, but within a services firm, there's only so much reinvestment back into the business that makes sense. It's not like a software company where you're infinitely scaling and pulling additional capital. So, figuring out what to do with profitability is its own interesting topic, I think. MELANIE: Yeah. And to answer that, for us at least, I agree with you fully. We prefer to be in person. That is why we opened offices in Baltimore and Columbus specifically, because they are nearby; it's quick and easy for us to travel there. I do have family in Baltimore, so selfishly, I'm thrilled to have an office there. [laughs] It's an excuse, anyway. Doing business in person is way better, I believe. I prefer it 120% over what we're doing currently. And we do reinvest our profits into travel. We don't charge our clients for travel. Our hourly fee has been the same for 15 years. We know what it takes timewise to do business. Now that we've been in business 15 years, we're more efficient at what we do, so it doesn't take us as long to do things. So, I don't feel that I have to gouge clients. It's just not necessary. Those profits we do roll back into travel, and we travel to our clients as much as we humanly possibly can. I think the same goes for getting work done in person. There's something to be said for our staff to be able to walk upstairs and go talk to the designer real quick or go downstairs and pull our copywriter in and say, “Hey, what do you think about this tagline?” There's some camaraderie there, and that's missing during all of this COVID. But that's reality, and we divert, and we will – I'm positive; it's a new year, and we will get back to where we were. We definitely will. I think the world will as well. But as a business owner right now, you just have to go with the flow and figure out your plan and keep at it and stay positive as much as you can and be able to stay on top of it. ROB: That's excellent. I really do like that thought of travel as a means of reinvesting in the business. I think that's a solid way to think about that, investing in relationships there. Melanie, when people want to find you and when they want to find Beyond Spots and Dots, where should they go to connect with you? MELANIE: Sure. I'm a believer of connecting. I certainly have a LinkedIn page, and I appreciate when people do connect. I love to mentor, so I love when young people reach out. I probably volunteer a little too much for mentoring, but I'll take it. I'll do it all day long if it helps someone young who's trying to get into the business and break through. As long as they're a hard worker, they're going to be successful. Beyondspotsanddots.com is our website. You can also google us and find us. Lots of places. We have a Twitter account, Facebook page, and all the good things. ROB: Excellent. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast, Melanie. It's been excellent connecting with you and learning for you, so thank you for coming on and sharing. MELANIE: Thank you so much. I certainly appreciate it. ROB: Be well. Bye. Thank you for listening. The Marketing Agency Leadership Podcast is presented by Converge. Converge helps digital marketing agencies and brands automate their reporting so they can be more profitable, accurate, and responsive. To learn more about how Converge can automate your marketing reporting, email info@convergehq.com, or visit us on the web at convergehq.com.

Brian Phillips is Co-founder and CEO of The Basement, an integrated (technology + creativity + measurement) B2C and B2B marketing agency with its roots in production. Brian dabbled in art and worked in architecture before he took the artistic principles of rendering positive and negative space to marketing. He explains, “The positive space, the consumer journey, is one we can see and everything works.” He believes marketers can get a lot of understanding out of identifying and analyzing negative space – the things that don't work – and that these, too, can help define the client journey. He believes “Negative space helps define and form the positive space.” His interests today remain diverse. For the past year, he has avidly read scientific books, pursuing ideas related to how genetics might impact buying and selling. The agency manages all media and destinations (the social channels and websites where consumers engage), extracting and analyzing as much data as possible and using multivariate testing. As an example, the agency may “cross-reference data out of Amazon” with data from its analytics platform on the ecommerce side.” The Basement markets its clients through an often complex, multi-touch, multi-channel approach. Larger companies may have as many as 150 datapoints across their consumer journey from “high level impressions down to ecommerce platform conversions.”  Brian has found that insights gained by analyzing data about consumers in the lower funnel can provide information on how the consumer got there and what the consumer will do next. The agency measures its success through outcomes, which, Brain explains, ensures accountability. Brian says his agency's focus has always been on growth, but growth “has to be calculated.” When asked about his agency's culture, he says simply, “Stay fascinated,” and then expands on the thought, adding, “Stay curious, stay ambitious, stay competitive, stay genuine, and stay fascinated.” Brian can be reached on his agency's website at: thebsmnt.com. Transcript Follows: ROB: Welcome to the Marketing Agency Leadership Podcast. I am your host, Rob Kischuk, and I am joined today by Brian Phillips, Co-founder and CEO of The Basement based in Indianapolis, Indiana. Welcome to the podcast. BRIAN: Thank you. Thanks for having me. ROB: Excellent to have you here, Brian. Why don't you start off by telling us about The Basement and where the firm excels? BRIAN: The Basement is an integrated agency, and there's probably some backstory there of how we got to be an integrated agency with roots in a production company. It's sad but true, but one of our greatest strengths is being able to deliver on what we say we can do. I've sat at many tables with brands that are unsatisfied with whoever their partners are, and sometimes it's as simple as just being able to deliver. I think as a production company, at the beginning that was what we prided ourselves on, and over time we've evolved to include that same delivery mentality against the consumer journey and a fully integrated offering of technology and creativity and measurements with the consumer journey in mind. We've had a lot of success with brands. We're not afraid to talk about outcomes. Actually, we prefer talking about outcomes, and we prefer the accountability that comes with that. We've been very fortunate to align with some great brands, and they acknowledge and accept our approach. It's turned out to be very impactful for both their business and mine. ROB: Are those brands typically more consumer-facing, or is there some B2B in there as well? BRIAN: Mostly consumer-facing, but we do have some B2B. Certainly there are major differences there. But we really approach our work systematically and through a proprietary framework that we've developed. Technologies roll in, audiences roll into it, but at the end of the day we're still performing the same services against that framework for B2B and B2C. ROB: Interesting. Tell me a little bit more about that framework. I think you have some brands that are of a pretty big size, and their go-to-market with customers is probably very multi-touch in a way that would often be hard to measure and hard to be accountable for, but that very much seems to be what you've leaned into. BRIAN: Yeah, there's no question. It seems like the majority of our clients are that way with the multi-touch and the omnichannel approach. I think it's important when we start talking with a brand that we're all aligned on accountability, and where we're going to hold ourselves accountable and where the brands are going to be accountable. Throughout that initial phase where we're working on strategy, we have to come to consensus on how we're going to measure success. Measuring that success along the consumer journey is something that we work together on and then we measure against. So that becomes, in my opinion, a lot easier to have dialogue and to have fruitful conversations and collaborations if you're aligning at the beginning. And that approach has been the core of what we do and how we build our integrated offerings. ROB: What sorts of things are you measuring for brands? BRIAN: Oh, man. [laughs] One of our larger brands that we work with that is a consumer brand, we're measuring 150 datapoints across their consumer journey, and that's everything from high level impressions down to conversions through their ecommerce platform and everything in between. At that point we're managing all media, all what we call destinations – places where consumers engage, whether that be social channels, whether that be their enterprise websites. We're going to build that infrastructure inside of that journey so that we can extract as much data as possible. Then we want to analyze it. We want to understand if there's any insights we can gain in the lower funnel that can impact how the consumer's getting there and what the consumer's doing next. And we've got case studies where we've seen and applied insights that were upper funnel, that were on the advertising layer, where we were able to test what type of product mix through display ads – we would run multivariate testing and we noticed that these certain product mixes with color combinations and words were effective. That then translates all the way down to the way we communicate on our website and what products we show on the website, how we're driving conversions through the performance funnel online. That cross-analysis is very important to us. We use and leverage a lot of technology, don't get me wrong; technology is extremely important to our business. But at the end of the day, we want to make sure that our core teams that work with the brand are analyzing that data, and we're looking for those insights and we're trying to figure things out on behalf of the brand. Machine learning is helpful. Obviously, it's a trend and it's going to be here. It already has changed the business and it's going to continue to change the business. But at the end of the day, I think you still need to have humans involved in that analysis, and that's something that we do very diligently with our clients. ROB: It's fascinating because a lot of marketers think about knowing how to track marketing when they can track the individual user all the way around the internet, when they can get a hard link through to conversion, that sort of thing. Certainly, you will have that in cases on the ecommerce side. But it almost sounds like on the broader consumer/general market side – maybe they bought something on Home Depot's website or Costco's website or Amazon or someplace where you can't sink into the data – it sounds like maybe you're still pulling on the stages of the customer journey at a macro level to see what's pushing down the funnel. Is that how you're thinking about it? You know what the stages are, you know what people are doing; even if you can't link each person, you can still see the echoes of what you've done up-funnel. BRIAN: Exactly. That's exactly right. Amazon's a great example where we can get data out of Amazon and we can get data out of our analytics platform on the ecommerce, and we have to cross-reference those. We have to understand why this happened versus something else happened. My background is kind of an interesting background, but it certainly comes from the creative side. I often talk to my team and in general about the importance of the consumer journey and looking at it very similar to figure drawing. The way that I learned figure drawing is you have positive and negative space, and the positive space, the consumer journey, is one we can see and everything works. But with figure drawing, you need to leverage and use the negative space as templates to help you define and form your positive space. I relate that to marketing and the consumer journey in a way that says sometimes things don't work, but understanding why they don't work and having the measurements in place to understand and help define – that helps us define what's going to work and what didn't work. So we really want to look at the positive and the negative space. I think there's an idea or a wish for marketers and agencies to say, “We just want to find all the positive and that's it. That's what we want to base everything on.” We try to look more holistic than that, because we think we can get a lot of definition and a lot of insights out of the things that don't work. ROB: It's fascinating to hear such a – there's sort of a disciplined line of thinking around the creativity that probably frees you up to be creative in other ways. It's interesting how it echoes right into marketing. It almost sounds like we're talking about planetary physics or something while we're at it. BRIAN: Now you're really going to get me going. [laughs] ROB: Oh, how so? BRIAN: I study science. I don't read many business books; I never did. I mean, I've read marketing and business books, but I've found that the focus on our business and the focus on science, everything from natural order to epigenetics, is something that I've been really focused on over the past year and a half and applying that level of thinking. To your point, you mentioned the word discipline, and I think that's certainly a strength of the agency and it's something that my business partner and I have always strived for. If I were to analyze my career, I think a systematic, more scientific approach to creative is something that I've always done. The parallels of science and creativity are just so fascinating to me. ROB: I think you can't just drop epigenetics into the conversation without actually helping those of us who think we know what that is, but maybe we don't. [laughs] Can you give a definition of what that is and maybe how it ties into, if it does tie into, your work and marketing? BRIAN: Any of the scientists in your audience may say, “He's completely off,” so I'll use the caveat that this is how I've interpreted it. The genes that we have as humans are what I would consider more binary. They do simple on and off. They can't define the entire character of a person. They may define the way you look, they may define other parts of your genetic makeup, but epigenetics is a newer science that is the study of the chemicals that are how the genes are expressed. What's so fascinating to me and what really got me interested in the concept is that these chemicals, these imprints of chemicals can become part of your genetic makeup that you can pass down to your children. There may be a certain way that you move or the way that you stand that wouldn't necessarily be part of a gene. A gene doesn't have that in it, but epigenetics have put that imprint on you because of the way that things have happened through your environment. That is what I find so fascinating about it – that study of behavior and getting all the way down to that science to say these behaviors can actually be explored through genes. Tying that to marketing – I think this is way, way future-focused, but when that data becomes more readily available and people start mapping it, which they are now, how does that bring the science of genetics into the targeting of how people are buying and selling products? That is the stuff that I find fascinating and I read about. ROB: Is this something in the neighborhood of a gene drive or something like that? Is that what we're talking about here? Or am I completely out of the neighborhood? BRIAN: What did you call that? ROB: A gene drive, where they can take certain things and introduce them – like they can introduce sterilization into the mosquito population not by shooting a mosquito into a crisper or anything like that. It's called a gene drive. Basically, they can introduce this trait into the population in this external way. BRIAN: I'm not spending a lot of my time and energy on what they're going to do with that innovation. [laughs] I do think that the future of medicine is going to be more tailored based on the structural variations within people's genes. So I do think that's going to change medicine as a potential outcome. But right now, my fascination and interest has just been the data and what happens when that source, that mapping has been done, what you do with it. It's like Tesla having all the data of people driving their cars. ROB: I see. So, you're able to measure things you've never been able to measure before to get insight you've never been able to draw before, just by how deep you're able to look into the picture. BRIAN: Right. That's what we keep doing as society. We keep finding new ways to extract data, and that is a parallel to the way we look at our framework and the way that we work with our clients. How can we extract meaningful data from the journey? It's just going to get smarter and more robust, and the systems are going to be in place and the first party data is going to be there. It's an interesting time, for sure. ROB: You've alluded a couple of times to your own background and your own origin story. What is the origin story of The Basement? What made you decide to start the firm, and what have been some key inflection points along the way? BRIAN: How far do you want me to go back? I think there's some relevance to the first brush of creativity. For the record, I'm about 6'6” and I come from an athletic family, and I was a basketball player. There was a point in my life where I thought I was going to go play basketball. Certainly not professionally, but in college. And I was always an artist. When I was in high school – this was in the early to mid-'90s – I met a graffiti artist from Chicago. That culture didn't really exist in Indianapolis in a meaningful way. That culture really didn't exist in the common culture of society. Hip-hop culture was in its infancy, really, at that time. I became fascinated by that art form. I think one of the key powers or superpowers, if you will – and for the record, I think superpowers change over time. At that time in my life, one of the things that defined me was defiance, and I think that carried through my career, from graffiti art to wanting to be an animator when I saw the movie Toy Story. That became my goal. My dream was to be a character animator. That's what my career set off into: how can I make animated films or shorts or whatever? I didn't really have a definition. I ended up in architecture, and I spent a number of years in architecture. It was at this period when the internet was becoming relevant. It was getting introduced to businesses. This was pre-broadband. Everyone was on dial-up. We were just at that point in society where the internet and how people engaged online was being defined. Then I became really interested in creating these very rich, high-end experiences that eventually became online, for lack of a better term, engagements. That's how my career started. I was doing that in architecture, and at one point my business partner and I met, and I was frustrated with my career and the ceiling that I saw for myself and the work I wanted to do. I wanted to work at Pixar. I left. I just quit my job. I convinced my business partner to start a business. He was certainly more of a marketing business mind than me at the time. I was very much an artist and a producer. The combination of the two of us has worked out really well. And we left. He left McDonald's Corporation, where he was a very successful regional marketing director, and I was this young, probably cocky kid who was doing 3D animation and interactive 3D online and virtual worlds, and we took off. We ended up becoming one of the first digital agencies in Indiana, and from there we started The Basement because we saw a void with traditional agencies that didn't have an understanding of digital. We saw that as an opportunity and a void in the market and serviced agencies for the first 5 or 6 years of our business as a high-end interactive studio, doing animated TV spots, doing Flash games. We made a number of video games, we made a number of TV spots, we did a number of very high-end, rich websites for consumer brands and national product launches, until we saw an opportunity. We were really good at building the destinations and the engagement points with consumers, and we would always ask the agencies and the people we were working with, “How are we getting people here? What's the narrative? What's that consumer narrative and how do we extend it?” That's where we started to take on more direct clients. We had clients that were at agencies that went to the brand side and wanted to hire us directly. It really started to snowball, and then we built a media business, and now we have a full national internal media business and analytics business, and obviously creative is still there, still a studio. We still produce a lot of work in-house. There's a ton of content that gets produced along with consumer journey. Being able to build that content against a very robust media strategy that's looking at data, looking for data, that's the kind of integration that we've built. In a very, very short, run-on sentence, that's how we got to where we are. ROB: Brian, you mentioned something that I think is very common, which is that a creative firm starts up to work on a particular practice area that other agencies aren't focused on, and you'll either take a referral or you'll get white-labeled under them on the engagement – and then there's this jumping off point that has to come around to grow more. That's that graduation from taking other people's subprojects and leftovers and engaging the clients directly. How did you change the mindset and make that jump in the business? Because a lot of people get stuck there. BRIAN: I really give a lot of that credit to my business partner. We also have one of our vice presidents who took the client services part of the business. We all worked really hard together, and my business partner's background in the agency was account service. He knew that business. He knew it very well. He's very disciplined, and he understands how to build systems, and again, echoing the points that we made, we think systematically. So we built systems that will hold ourselves accountable, and we made sure that we were honest with each other and collaborated. We're transparent. I think that transparency was a very important key for us with our clients throughout. If we can do something, we'll tell you we can do it. If we can't do it at that time, we're going to be honest with you and we'll tell you when we can do it. That formula worked really well for us. I've always been an advocate for hiring people that are better than you, and that is what we did. At that time we had to build a culture, and we built a culture around growth not only for our clients, but for ourselves and for the individuals that are within the company. We fostered the culture, and that culture helped organically make us better. That is I think equal weight in the success of that adoption and being able to change and being able to recognize how something needs to improve. That's, again, been a big part of who we are. We have a tagline, which really is the definition of our culture, and that's “Stay fascinated.” Our culture is defined by stay curious, stay ambitious, stay competitive, stay genuine, and stay fascinated. That idea of staying fascinated is see something bigger than yourself, see something that we can become collectively. When you see something and you strive for something and you strive for growth, things need to change and things get better. That's how we define our culture, and that's how we were able to improve. Because I'll tell you right now, our account service business was not great when we started. It was good. We've made it great. ROB: It sounds like by being honest with yourself and with your clients – both of which takes discipline, which we said before – you were able to avoid getting yourself in the deep end in some areas and say no to the things that were too big while also growing into bigger and bigger capabilities along the way. BRIAN: Yeah. We expanded our services along the way. Again, very, very proud today. We've had tremendous growth over the life of the agency, and we still plan to grow. We are going to continue to grow. Thinking of it from a biological standpoint, organisms grow to the point where they peak and they start to decay. We feel that we're not even close to decaying. Growth has always been a part of our strategy, but it has to be calculated. We've said no to things that we knew we weren't going to be able to deliver against, and that I think is very important and has defined us by saying no to things versus saying yes to everything. That was a really good business lesson that we've learned along the way. And preservation of culture, because you can say yes to things and short term you can grow revenue, you can make more money – but at the peril of what? That was something we've always been very protective of: the culture, the people, the dynamics within the team. Because as we recruit and we want to hire the most talented people, then you have to protect them and you have to make sure that they are in a position to do what they're great at. The point I made about superpowers evolving – as I got further in my career and further into the growth of business, that became part of my role and what I strive to be good at. ROB: It's quite a journey, Brian. Thank you for sharing. I feel like there's a lot more we could pull on; I want to be respectful of everybody's time. Brian, when people want to get in touch with you and with The Basement, how should they connect with you? BRIAN: Certainly the website for The Basement, and that is thebsmnt.com. That's the easiest way to get a hold of us. We love challenges, and we love brands that want to swing above their weight class. We're actively looking for new partnerships. I really appreciate you taking a moment to have me on and talk about this business that we've built out of Indianapolis, which is not typically known for advertising. ROB: If people don't know, there's a lot there. ExactTarget didn't get as long in the sun as people might've wanted it to, but that was a big deal out of Indy, right? BRIAN: Oh my goodness, yes. ExactTarget has been a fantastic story, and Salesforce is there. Yeah, things are changing. There's no doubt. Things have definitely changed and momentum is with our city right now. ROB: Got that Atlanta to Indy connection with Pardot and Salesforce and all that. We appreciated ExactTarget as well. It was good for our ecosystem. BRIAN: Good. ROB: Thanks so much, Brian. Good to have you on. Be well. BRIAN: Likewise. Thank you again. ROB: Bye. Thank you for listening. The Marketing Agency Leadership Podcast is presented by Converge. Converge helps digital marketing agencies and brands automate their reporting so they can be more profitable, accurate, and responsive. To learn more about how Converge can automate your marketing reporting, email info@convergehq.com, or visit us on the web at convergehq.com.

Phil Case, now Chief Client Officer, joined Max Connect Marketing after running an agency for nine years – one that consistently lost clients to this highly performance-based digital agency. One key to Max Connect's success is that 90 percent of its 47 employees are compensated based on the performance of the campaigns it runs. At Phil's previous agency, the sales team would work 6 months to close a new client and then hand the client over to the digital team. The digital team would complain about the extra time they had to spend running the campaign without that effort generating any more financial compensation. Aligning compensation with performance boosts the Max Connect team's motivation to go “above and beyond” to produce outstanding results. Max Connect's clients are typically national or international  B2B companies or companies that sell big-ticket consumer goods . . . especially purchases that involve a complex, nuanced customer journey that requires education, brand-building, and a focus on the customer relationship, and involve “a lot of datapoints.” Phil refers to these datapoints as the up to 100 to 140 “digital breadcrumbs” that people leave as they navigate a “considered” several-hundred- or several-thousand-dollar purchase decision.  The agency targets audiences based on “real-time in-market data, demographics, psychographics, and online intent,” runs that data through its proprietary algorithm, and then places frequent, hyper-targeted ads in front of that audience on multiple digital channels. The goal is to provide a customer journey with a high level of detail and a “personalized touch.” Phil notes that privacy concerns are creating an international trend toward a “cookieless world.” The immense amount of data Max Connect collects is stripped of personal information to prevent potential privacy law violations. The sheer volume of information provides an opportunity to gain the insights needed to build more specific, nuanced customer journeys and increase sales, but also to drive a company's ability to innovate – to create the types of products and technologies consumers will demand in the future. Phil believes most digital marketers make the mistake of assuming they know their audiences and how to reach them without any real-time analysis. Max Connect starts with identifying a client's audience through empirical data . . . analyzing on- and off-line conversion data, hypertargeting the audience, reaching out to them through up to six different channels, and then assessing which channels are most effectively converting audiences. Phil describes this customer journey approach as both “more personalized” and “ubiquitous.” Phil, who grew up in the deserts of Arizona, is enamored with the diverse outdoor opportunities in Utah. When the Bear's Ears monument controversy damaged the businesses of a large number of Utah-based outdoor brands, Phil worked with the brands' CEOs to found a 501(c)(6) nonprofit trade association to promote thought leadership, knowledge sharing, events, and roundtables . . . all to strengthen Utah's natural resource interests and outdoor brands. Phil's goals for 2020 were to “be more deliberate in decision-making” and to put himself out of his comfort zone – which would give him the opportunity to “grow and stretch.” 2020s' challenges provided that for him without his even trying. Growing and stretching remain goals for the coming year. Phil can be reached on his LinkedIn profile: Phil Case, https://www.linkedin.com/in/philcase/ or on his agency's website at maxconnect.com Transcript Follows: ROB: Welcome to the Marketing Agency Leadership Podcast. I'm your host, Rob Kischuk, and I am joined today by Phil Case, Chief Client Officer at Max Connect Marketing based in the Salt Lake City area right in the heart of the Silicon Slopes. Welcome to the podcast, Phil. PHIL: Great to be with you. ROB: Excellent to have you here. Why don't you give us the rundown on Max Connect Marketing and what capabilities are really driving growth there?  PHIL: It's interesting; at my last agency, I came across these guys more than a few times, and I consistently lost clients to them – a few over the last couple of years. As I was able to begin to get to know them and ultimately join the team over a year ago, I began to find out that not only did they have a uniquely digital-only focus, but it was very much data-driven with an audience-specific approach that I hadn't really seen anywhere else. In terms of their capabilities and being able to see that customer journey, the level of detail and personalization that they provided blew me away. ROB: What's a typical client that you're working with over there? PHIL: The more complex the customer journey is – and what I mean by that is, if there's more datapoints, if there's more digital footprints – we think of Hansel and Gretel and breadcrumbs. The breadcrumbs that we leave as we make decisions in our own lives throughout the internet are immense. Most of us probably don't realize that. Going into a typical several-hundred- or several-thousand-dollar decision that a consumer might make, for instance, there's anywhere from 100 to 140 touchpoints or data digital breadcrumbs that you've left. What we do as an agency is harness that on behalf of the brands we work with. It could be an automotive client selling cars to a homebuilder selling homes to a SaaS tech company selling B2B software to consumer products and other brands in ecommerce. Really what unifies all of these clients across industries and sectors is when there's a nuanced customer journey, when there's education, when there's brand-building, but particularly when they're wanting to build a relationship with a consumer or a professional. That's when we tend to really thrive in terms of what we provide on their behalf. ROB: Got it. So, you're in both consumer and B2B, but the common theme is this is a larger ticket, considered purchase. It's not a “swipe your credit card right now and buy this piece of SaaS software you just saw for $10 bucks a month.” PHIL: That's right. It's when you're weighing options, you're doing your research, and potentially when there's a human being that you often will speak with, whether that's via chat – you're probably familiar with Backcountry and the guides and the experts or really gearheads that they provide at Backcountry.com. Comparing that with a car salesman or a homebuilder and a real estate individual involved, there's typically a human touch either verbally by phone or in person or via chat. That's when we tend to do extremely well working alongside that ecosystem. ROB: Got it. You've got web traffic maybe connected to email opens, maybe connected to digital chat, maybe with some logging of calls from a representative who's in on the sale? Is that a lot of the footprint, or what else is in that? PHIL: No, that's exactly right. I can get a little bit more into that, but to put it this way, when somebody in today's world goes and purchases a car – let's say you wanted to go get that new Mustang you've had your eye on. There's about 25 points that have been somewhat standardized across an auto buying journey, and 25 steps that need to be made. Up until this year of 2020, there's 19 of those that Google has now said “this is a digital first touchpoint.” Before, we used to think about car buying as “I want to buy a car,” so you just show up to a dealer and say, “I have no idea. Tell me what I ought to buy,” and they get those dollar signs in their eyes and they say, “Here's somebody that I can probably pull the wool over their eyes or sell them and guide them to what I'm going to either make the most money on or what my manager tells me we'll get kickback on incentives.” What's changed now is any time somebody steps foot onto a lot, they typically have down to the VIN number what they want to purchase. They know exactly what the dealership has, and they know what they're willing to pay because they've seen the invoice price. It's a little different. So as a dealer, those 19 digital touchpoints – with 2021, it's pushed us closer to 21 to 22. So, you literally show up to the dealership and it's, “I'd like to buy this car and I'm willing to spend X,” and it's a matter of will they do that for me or not? So, it's interesting. That's the challenge that businesses face now. Most of that research and backstory is done with research online. Consumers come more prepared than ever, and we need to make sure that whether it's across social channels, whether it's across video, whether it's just throughout the internet or on Google, you're being seen and found and providing relevant education and really driving that individual to purchase, that you're the right organization to buy that from. ROB: I laugh a little bit; I shared with you beforehand that I spent some time in Salt Lake City this past summer. What I didn't share is we were on a road trip and our van basically broke down, and we ended up purchasing a vehicle in Salt Lake City on the middle of a road trip from Atlanta. So, I've been on that journey in about five days. PHIL: There you go. And I'll tell you a little bit more on that note. Most digital marketers get it wrong, and they make assumptions about their audience that they'll behave a certain way or that they're a certain age or demographic. They feel like “Facebook can help me reach that audience,” so they have almost a single or maybe a dual channel approach by which they invest money in, and they say, “Is this channel giving me a return?” We think that's entirely the wrong way to think about marketing. We think you first identify your audience utilizing empirical data. Let the data speak for itself and let your audience be able to be uncovered as you're measuring and counting and looking at those conversions that come across your website or on- and offline transactions. As you understand then who that audience is, we feel like you first hyper-target your audience and then you reach them through four to five to six different channels. It's not about “Is this channel performing or not?” It's “Is this audience that we've defined converting at as high a level as this other audience?” It's really about being ubiquitous across that customer journey and providing a more personalized approach for that individual. For instance, if you've ever seen Minority Report where Tom Cruise walks into the store and he's got the new set of eyes, the Asian that he purchased from, you'll notice that it says “Welcome, Mr. Yakamoto. Last time you were here, you bought these jeans. Can we show you this size now?” That's really where we're headed. We've gotten to that level that in marketing, we should be able to provide a unique, curated, personalized customer journey for those audiences and individuals looking to interact with you as a brand. There's no reason that we're limiting ourselves by any one channel or medium. You should use any and all channels and mediums and digital marketing mix to allow you to reach that individual and develop a relationship with him or her. And that could be across anywhere on the internet. We all have different consumption behaviors and patterns. ROB: A lot of people do look at that Minority Report scene still as being a little bit intrusive and creepy, but we see that project into the world we're in as well. You'll hear people certainly say, “I was just talking about this thing the other day and then I started seeing this advertisement from something else. I know my Alexa was listening in on me.” I think sometimes we underestimate how much we've been influenced by some prior touchpoint or how much marketers just know our demographic in the first place. PHIL: I think it's a mixture of both. I think there's enough Big Data out there that we have an idea of the type of buyer profiles we're looking at, but I think you're exactly right; there is a lot of data collection that's happening on any of the big tech companies you can imagine. And just to address that point, we've been hearing as marketers there's going to be a cookieless world, that there's more stringent requirements in Europe and California, throughout the United States, with privacy. Which I think is a good thing. Any data that we collect is anonymized. We're in no way wanting to violate any PII type laws. But because we can integrate with Facebook and Google and these other major platforms and their SDKs and APIs, we can still get very granular data among audience with anonymized users in a way that not only allows us to have incredible attribution, but it allows us to get greater insight into the traits and attributes and digital breadcrumbs that really drive conversion. So even though we might live in a cookieless world, there's still a lot of anonymized data, and there's other ways to work through these big tech companies to almost replicate, if not even improve, the amount of data and personalization we're able to do. ROB: Right. It's almost like we've shifted the point of contact. If you think about a company the size of Verizon, all the different datapoints that they control, all of the different touchpoints, they may only do first party cookies on each site instead of third-party cookies, but if they can tie them together – and they certainly can – it seems like it's really going to move the boundary to some of these media companies selling the audience through to the people who want to buy it. PHIL: And particularly the consolidation we're seeing in media assets. I think you're right on. We see that – I'm forgetting the movie theater chain that's chosen – anyway, as you've noticed, some of the bigger movie producers are now simply coming straight out to HBO Max. It's interesting to see not only consolidation, but across networks and entities and as buyouts are happening, the amount of data being shared. To your point, it might all be first party data, but if it's packaged in such a way and they can have a holistic vantage point of a particular consumer across multiple properties, that data alone is very valuable. ROB: Right, because HBO Max is AT&T, it's TBS, it's TNT, it's Cartoon Network, it's Bleacher Report. It's a myriad of touchpoints. They're like a Fortune 5 company or something. They're going to figure something out. PHIL: And that really becomes the currency of the future. It's data. It's being able to not necessarily control data but have data in a way that you can draw insights that you know how to target your consumer, that you can provide more personalized marketing or touchpoints. Because we're collecting an immense amount of data, the companies that can harness that will have not only a more specific and nuanced type customer journey and approach and they'll sell at a lot higher rate, but it's that data that ultimately allows them to drive innovation, allows them to drive the type of products and technology that users and consumers are demanding in the future. So, I think we'll continue to see data be a major currency of business in the future. ROB: Very, very interesting. Phil, you mentioned seeing your own business that you built coming up alongside Max Connect. While you weren't necessarily at Max Connect on Day 1, what can you tell us about the origin story, and maybe the parallel journey you saw them on versus what you were doing that you learned from along that way? PHIL: I'll give a little bit of my background to give context. In college I studied international business and relations, and I actually for a semester did Arabic. I was working on a national political campaign for president, studying Arabic, really wanting to get into the government work. Then I met a girl who would become my wife, and when I described to her this vision of living in the Middle East and speaking Arabic and having our children in these international schools and I'd be a diplomat, she looked at me and said, “Well, that sounds incredible, and I'm really excited for you, but I probably won't be on that journey with you. I hope you can find a girl that will.” It caused me to pause, and as I began to reevaluate those opportunities of business, I began to gravitate into investment banking and finance. As I graduated with a minor in business, I had taken all but one marketing class and I kind of thought it was a joke. I thought, “This comes somewhat natural and it's easy. Who would ever read the textbook?” And I don't say that in a boastful way; I just didn't think very much of it. But when I looked to begin an internship and began in marketing, I was fascinated by it. For the first couple of years, I kept trying to leave to have my full-time employment be in finance and banking, but there was a moment in my career where I was speaking to a client and they said, “Boy, you must have the best job.” I said, “What do you mean?” They said, “I look forward to every week when we meet, and it's the highlight of my week because it's so fun. It's exciting, it's creative. It's what I look forward to. You get to do this every day.” I began to look at the solemn, stern faces and this lack of personality of those that work in the finance industry and I thought, why would I ever want to work in finance? [laughs] This is far too much fun. So, I've been in the agency world my entire career. My last agency, Fluid Advertising, I ran for about 9 years. I exited that at the end of last summer. But in that timeframe, one of my passions is the outdoors. I live in Utah; we were abundantly blessed with natural assets and resources, more so we feel like than other states. We have everything year round that you can imagine. So, I'm an avid hiker, mountain biker, I love to camp, I love to get in the backcountry and long distances in. But in the winter, one of my favorite pastimes and hobbies is hiking up a 2,000- or 3,000-foot mountain at 5 or 6 a.m. and then skiing down it in untouched powder. It's one you've got to be careful with because there's backcountry danger and avalanches. I'll tell you this: Salt Lake suffered a major earthquake in March of this year. It was right at the beginning of COVID. Everybody's a little nervous, and I decided one morning with a buddy that we were going to go scale a mountain and ski down it. So, we're in the middle of the canyons and the mountains, and you would think avalanches and earthquakes don't mix well together. I guess at 7:20 a.m. that morning, Salt Lake Valley suffered a major earthquake, more so than it ever had. There was damage and destruction. Not major as much as others, but fairly significant. My wife was just beside herself because all she knew was I'm in the middle of the avalanche terrain, hiking, and an earthquake happens and I must be dead. I didn't answer the first three times she called me because I didn't really have my phone on. Finally, when I answered – she thought I was dead. So, we finished the run, skied down, I got home, and it was one of those conversations of, “We'd better go get our food storage and how's your life insurance policy?” It was interesting; that day there was a major earthquake in the valley, we didn't even feel a tremor where we were. But with that context of my love of the outdoors, I helped launch the Utah Outdoor Association, bringing brands together like Black Diamond and Petzl and Specialized and Goal Zero and brands like Amer Sports – you have Solomon and Atomic and many other iconic brands. Most of them are located, at least their U.S. headquarters, in Utah. It's incredible. I found working with these brands that the Outdoor Retailer Show had left because there was a little bit of politics there a few years back. It got very political with President Obama and President Trump with Bears Ears and land grants of what's national versus what's state-owned land. It was interesting; in the midst of all that, Utah got left with a black eye and the brands themselves suffered because there wasn't leadership. So, working across these brands with their CEOs and executives, we formed a 501(c)(6) nonprofit trade association to help these brands band together to have a voice, to speak for themselves, to be able to further develop and grow what Utah's been, again, abundantly blessed with – not just in natural resources, but particularly with having an inordinate amount of outdoor brands here. We've begun to build over the last few years this nonprofit that I continue to be passionate about, and where we'll do thought leadership and knowledge sharing and events and roundtables. We'll tackle industry issues, we'll do joint marketing campaigns. It's been a lot of fun. ROB: There's certainly so much to direct people towards. If people get started and have a good experience, they're going to buy more of this gear. It makes a lot of sense. You just need to show people. I mentioned we were out in Utah and we did the Salt Lake City area and we did South Utah. I talk to people and I almost can't believe it when they haven't heard of some of the places around Utah because it is truly remarkable. PHIL: Again, there's wonderful places all over the country, but I grew up in Arizona, and in the back of my mind I always thought, “There has to be better places to live than a desert. Living in the foothills of beautiful mountains and all sorts of recreation, I certainly enjoy. To answer your other question on Max Connect, this agency began 8 years ago. Not necessarily a parallel story, although we were competitors. But they began in an attic. Couple of people left another ad agency, weren't being treated fairly. They recruited one of the top digital marketing minds that had done major work for Netflix and for Chevron and others. The four of them founded Max Connect, and over the process of time they grew out of the attic fairly quickly and another office building. We now have a massive space that houses about 47 professionals, most of which are doing the digital marketing efforts. It's all in-house. We work coast to coast. We work with international clients. They've built a remarkable team. The one thing I'll say that I think is somewhat unique is that most of the team – call it 90% of all employees – are compensated based on the performance of the campaigns we run. So if you as a client are selling more stuff – more cars, more homes, more software – we as an agency compensate our team accordingly so they have skin in the game. They're willing to go above and beyond because they know it means more in their paycheck. My last agency, we'd bring in a great client, give it to the digital team thinking “This took me 6 months to close. This is an incredible opportunity,” and they'd moan and complain and think “Now I have to stay an hour later to run this campaign and I'm not necessarily making any more money.” Just to have that alignment, even from a financial and performance perspective, it's been night and day. The team and the commitment and the willingness to really be strategic and insightful has been so fun to work alongside. ROB: Is that something that you then also put out in front of clients and roll out as part of the agreement? Or is it more subtle than that? PHIL: Some clients it's too much for. We actually have a homebuilder that every home they sell, there's a portion of that that goes into a digital marketing bank account by which it then funds the next month's marketing campaigns. So, we've gotten down to a transaction level. But a lot of clients will say, “I have a budget of $40,000, $50,000, $60,000 a month. We're going to deploy this with you. These are the results that I need,” and on the backend we then compensate our team with a portion of their compensation coming in terms of that performance. So rather than make it overly complicated, we just do that anyway. But with some clients that really want to dig deep, we're willing to structure a performance model. ROB: That would seem to me like that would create much more interest from your team and much quicker feedback on campaign data. Some people just know what they're supposed to spend in a month, and they spend it and then they ask questions later. Do you see a pressure towards tighter feedback loops? And how do you help equip your team with that information? PHIL: Great point. We have a lot of clients that are on a weekly cadence. We certainly will do a full month review where we're trying to draw a lot of insights and bigger pivots. But on a daily and weekly basis, whether that's a dashboard we're exposing to them that's starting to produce those insights and data or our team – I mean, our team's in every campaign almost daily because to get the level of results and performance, we have to. But on a weekly basis being able to report, “This is where we've been able to lower your cost per acquisition and this is where we've begun to pivot and adjust marketing dollars and how the response has been” – it is a tighter feedback loop, but it's one that for the client – I think we're more used to instantaneous type, “Hey, I put money in the market. Am I getting results?” So, we've really structured our agency around that. ROB: Right. You're talking about these longer buyer journeys. I guess there's an extent to which one week is probably rarely enough to fully measure something, unless it's me rapidly buying a car. PHIL: Some of the shorter cadences, we have several ecommerce and subscription. It's been interesting. COVID has driven that industry forward in unparalleled ways. It's experiencing as an industry phenomenal growth, and for most retail-like or brands that traditionally were selling in the, for the most part, wholesale consumer space, where there were distributors and people were buying it retail – because of COVID, what we've heard from big brands across the country and really the world has been, “Our traditional brick-and-mortar is down. Our ecommerce, we can't even begin to keep up with projections. We're 400% to 500% above forecasts.” They're saying, “How can we pour more money into both human assets, but particularly the digital ecosystem? Because that is our major focus moving forward.” We've actually pivoted as an agency and invested and put an entire team on just ecommerce alone. To put that in perspective, sometimes there's conversions that will take – it might be a multi-week period. But we're continually reporting on progress on touchpoints and conversions where the conversions for this week might have begun a customer journey that was the week prior. But what's important is there's week over week value creation and continuing to help sell on their behalf. ROB: It seems like once the Christmas push has passed, January could be a big opportunity. How are you looking at that with clients? PHIL: Again, there's a little bit of some cyclical nature of the businesses we work with, and some that really take advantage of the holiday season. But the cost of inventory is even more. We've had some clients that have actually, because they're not so much a Christmas gift-giving type sector, pulled back slightly in terms of their budgets because the cost per impression, the cost per click, the cost of inventory is high right now. We saw between the election – well, the election it feels like isn't over. But between that Black Friday and Cyber Monday week, the cost of all advertising spiked so dramatically because you still were getting political ads. You had the biggest month potentially ever of ecommerce that we've ever had in the history of ecommerce. So we see January as really level-setting with a lot of advertisers where it's really just blue sky. They're really excited because they can come out swinging. They've recalibrated; they've gotten past the Q4 push. They know that the cost of inventory, for the most part, is down. So we've done a lot of planning around Q1 of continuing – again, whether that's retail – but there continues to be major consumer type opportunities as we're building to tax-free day, as we're building to Martin Luther King and Presidents' Day weekend. Again, it depends on the industry, but that certainly has been a highly talked about timeframe for our agency. ROB: For sure. Phil, between joining Max Connect and building your own agency before that, what would you look at doing differently if you were starting over based on what you've learned on this journey? PHIL: It's interesting; first in my career it was very much about how I closed that next client and making sure I was involved in most if not all interactions and really trying to provide strategic insight. I realized it was all about me. I was a leadership athlete, I'd call it. It was “How can I singlehandedly push this agency forward?” It's interesting because we grew, but I don't think we grew nearly as quickly as we could've if I would've not only extended trust but continued to surround myself with individuals that can do the heavy lifting alongside myself, that were likeminded. I heard this terminology a few years ago, that it's not so much about being a leadership athlete, but a leadership coach. How do you help develop that next generation of leaders? How do you value the team and how do you work through others? It's about developing future leaders and helping them be totally comfortable in situations that may have been uncomfortable a year before, and really helping them in their own journey. And that's really where a lot of the satisfaction and retention comes about. Somebody is getting that fulfillment, there's autonomy at work, but there's also challenge, and they're continuing to be challenged mentally in the tasks they're taking on, and you're pushing them forward. So not only do they become more valuable to you running the agency, but they're becoming more valuable to themselves. Their earning potential continues to skyrocket, and they build that confidence. I think that's important. Another learning that I'd probably take away as I've reflected on this is focusing on the important few versus the eclectic many. So often, particularly in an agency that you're trying to grow, it's almost like “Hey, you want to pay us money? Great, we'll sign you up tomorrow. Let's go.” As you mature and as you take on bigger accounts, you begin to become more picky-and-choosy. But I will say that even with internal initiatives, just having a focus of just a few, just a handful, the simpler the better. I've found that the end of the row, the frontline employee, it's hard to focus on more than just two or three things at any given moment. So really simplifying business plans, simplifying go-to-market strategies –it's about the right clients. It's the bigger elephants, the mammoths that you're hunting. It's not about a race to more clients; it's a race to the right clients and providing real, lasting value on their behalf. I'll give you an example. I used to be the kind of guy that goes to a networking event, and it was kind of like, how many people can I talk to before this day is over? And how many business cards can I collect and then follow up with? Which I now know was the wrong mindset. Now the mindset is, is there a person or two in this room that I should get to know? And that's it. There might be hundreds, but what are the one or two relationships that I can walk out of here that might benefit her or him or might benefit myself? I think slowing down, taking a moment, and just being strategic with the decisions, the relationships, and the initiatives within an agency or a business in general – those are a handful of things that I've seen time and time again have proven themselves out, and a level of setting for the next agency and doing it right. I'd hopefully take that with me. The last thing I'll say with that – my two words for the year of 2020, which was well before COVID was a thing, were “deliberate” and “uncomfortable.” Those were the two words I wanted to take into the year. I wanted to be more deliberate in the decisions I made, in the turns that I took skiing. I wanted to be uncomfortable. I wanted to do those things that would put myself not only out of my comfort zone, but cause me to grow and stretch. 2020 just kind of took care of itself. I feel like in the future, that's where the growth happens, individually and with a team. So those are some words that continue to fuel me. ROB: That's all fascinating. It's very interesting to think about how the tone of those first interactions or the ongoing interactions with someone in a social setting sets it up. You can have a transactional interaction with them, seeking a transactional sale, or you can go deep and it sets the table for whatever you do eventually to be deep. It seems like there's symmetry there. PHIL: And the best clients that tend to stick around never begin from a transactional sense. Here as an agency, the two things we do well – one of those is digital, but the other that we do just as well is relationships. If you don't have both, you don't have a long tenured client. You tend to have a lot more churn. You tend to not be an integral partner of their business, and that's, I think, what clients value long term. ROB: Perfect. Phil, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. When people want to reach you and connect with you and Max Connect Marketing, where should they go to find you? PHIL: The only social channel I'm regularly on is LinkedIn. Profile Phil Case, linkedin.com/in/philcase/. Our website is maxconnect.com. ROB: Excellent. Thanks for sharing your journey, Phil. Congrats on everything, and onwards and upwards for Max Connect. PHIL: Hey, thank you so much. Great to be with you today. ROB: All right. Thanks. Be well. Thank you for listening. The Marketing Agency Leadership Podcast is presented by Converge. Converge helps digital marketing agencies and brands automate their reporting so they can be more profitable, accurate, and responsive. To learn more about how Converge can automate your marketing reporting, email info@convergehq.com, or visit us on the web at convergehq.com.

For 15 years, Leah Norton, Managing Partner at Fishhook, has been leading this communications team which focuses on “getting out the message” for churches and faith-based ministries. Leah had left her previous agency to stay home and raise her young daughters. She started working part-time at Fishhook, coming on board to build out the founder's ideas and work on long-term client relationships. Last March, with her girls in their teens and in the midst of the pandemic, she bought out the founding partner, Evan McBroom, and brought in a new partner, Shayla Kenworthy In this interview, Leah explains the similarities and differences between secular and faith-based marketing. As an example, many churches, in an attempt to be good stewards of their resources, are more likely to try to do their own marketing. The churches that work with Fishhook soon see that bringing on an outside partner is an investment that boosts ROI. Once Fishhook is involved, assessments of an organization's mission, goals, and its communications lead to branding and marketing strategies with a full range of integrated web design, social engagement, and YouTube channel “pieces.” Fishhook works to help churches uncover and embrace their stories and unique qualities and then to craft communications and marketing efforts that serve the congregations by bringing “hope and encouragement” to the church community. Much of what is happening in marketing in “the rest of the world” informs Fishhook's initiatives. Fishhook's goal for 2021 is to help client churches “make their communications very personal, creative, and authentic for the people they're trying to reach.” The agency is currently a team of seven – communication strategists, writers, graphic designers, visual designers, and web developers – and looking to hire. Client churches range in size from 40 members to as many as 80,000. Leah says that it is important that there be consistency between people's online experience and what they would experience on campus or in the church building. Covid has increased churches' awareness of online opportunities . . . digital programs that used to be secondary offerings are often now the main focus.  Leah is a strong believer in balancing priorities . . . in being “all-in” at work, but also being able to pull away and be “all-in” with family and friends outside of work.  She can be reached on her agency's website at fishhook.us, on Facebook and Instagram at Fishhook HQ, or by email at leah@fishhook.us. The agency provides a wealth of articles, webinars, podcasts, and videos covering communications and communications planning, strategies, branding, and digital ministry at: fishhook.us/learn. Transcript Below: ROB: Welcome to the Marketing Agency Leadership Podcast. I'm your host, Rob Kischuk, and I am joined today by Leah Norton. She is the Managing Partner at Fishhook based in my home state of Indiana. She's in Indianapolis. Welcome to the podcast, Leah. LEAH: Thanks so much, Rob. It's really a delight to talk with you today. Thanks for having me. ROB: Yeah, it's great to have you here. We've already had a great warmup conversation about Indiana winters and so on. But let's talk about you. Let's talk about Fishhook. Tell us about the firm and where the firm excels. LEAH: Yeah, thanks for asking. The Fishhook team, we are 17 years old. I've been part of the work and leading the team for the last 15 years. Evan McBroom was our founding partner. Believe it or not, in the midst of the pandemic, in March, I fully bought him out and then brought on a new partner, Shayla Kenworthy. That's added all kinds of interest and drama to the year in the midst of the pandemic. But it's been good. It's just a great opportunity, and it's been a joy to continue leading in this season. We have a very interesting niche. We're a communications team that focuses on serving churches. All of our clients are churches and faith-based ministries. Evan, the founder, and I both came from corporate and agency backgrounds where we were working with incredible, large companies, organizations, and we loved that work. Loved doing communications marketing with those large corporations. For us, our faith is an important part of who we are, and we looked around and knew that churches and faith-based ministries and organizations needed more help. They needed an outside partner that would come alongside them to help them communicate and market well to serve people and to get their message out, their story told. So Fishhook was born, again, 17 years old. What we really focus on is coming alongside our churches to help them uncover their distinct story, what makes them special and unique, and to help them then embrace that story and then translate it through their communications and marketing efforts to serve people, to bring people hope and encouragement. I would say that is really our focus. We're a team of seven and growing. We're actually looking to hire. We're a team of communication strategists, writers, graphic designers, visual designers, and web developers. We both work on the strategy side to help our churches uncover their distinct story, and then as they're translating that into personal, creative, and authentic communications – those are the keywords we love to say – as we look to 2021, we want to help our churches make their communications very personal, creative, and authentic for the people they're trying to reach. That's what we strive to do. A lot of that is online, obviously, through social efforts and web, and then in other ways as well. So that's our focus. That's who we are. ROB: That is a super fascinating niche, and that is one we have certainly not had on the podcast before. So I'm eager to dig in deeper here. When I think of churches and marketing, first of all, you're talking about a completely different kind of conversion than most marketers, and that's fascinating. [laughs] LEAH: But there are similarities. It's interesting. There are parallels. We want to be learning and growing with many people, but I think of inbound marketing – the Inbound Conference over the years, that community has been a huge inspiration to us. That's just one example. And there's so much to learn as you think about what people maybe in the more secular world are trying to do with their marketing and sales efforts, or as they're working with employees or shareholders or trying to acquire more new customers. There's just so many principles. We are constantly learning from what's going on in the rest of the world and in the marketplace and thinking about how that applies to our churches and ministries. ROB: It is perhaps the original customer journey before we got so wise in these new marketing ways. LEAH: Right. ROB: When I think about churches and staffing and particularly communications, it seems to me that quite often, they take the communications piece in-house. More than most functions, they try to DIY. What is it that you've seen in terms of churches and perhaps their tendency to DIY and how they reach that moment where they actually realize they can maybe get in a better cadence working with somebody like you? LEAH: Great question. I think in a church setting – and this also probably applies to other nonprofits. I think there's such a focus on being good stewards with the resources they have. A lot of times you bring on staff and you try to really be careful with the resources, the budget that you have. In a nonprofit setting, for example, you know that donors have given money or you've worked hard to receive grants and that kind of funding, so you want to be so careful with those dollars and those budgets and stewarding it all well. I think more and more, our churches are seeing that, my gosh, there's so much value that comes with outside resources, outside partners. The folks that want to work with us really see it as a valuable investment that brings so much ROI to their work. A lot of the folks that contact us or we get connected with and start working with us, they know it's a significant investment, and we don't take that lightly. We are so grateful for what they want to invest with our team, and we always hope that there's lots of momentum and fruit and results that really serve them well. ROB: What's a typical range of members or attenders for the types of churches you work with most often? LEAH: We get asked this all the time because I think people assume that we work with maybe the largest churches who have maybe more resources available. We say at Fishhook that we want to help every church that is connected to us, is reaching out to us. We have the privilege of working with churches across the country. Rob, we work with some churches that have 40, 60, 80 people all the way up to churches that have 60,000 or 80,000 people, and everyone in between. For our team, that is just a blast that we get to come alongside churches of different denominations, different sizes, different locations. We work really diligently to listen to them and their situation. Who are they? Where are they located? Who are they serving? We try to be so empathetic, and like I said, to listen so well to what their situation is, and then to customize our work for that. We say we work with churches of all shapes and sizes, and we really do. ROB: It's really, really interesting, the range of sizes and the range of communications. There's a whole lot of different sizes of church in the world, obviously. What you do reminds me a little bit in parallel of Dime. Are you familiar with them? LEAH: Sure, tell me. Tell me more. ROB: My understanding is that instead of marketing, Dime is the finance arm of a church, where you need some expertise outside of yourself. You need to have somebody in a church to do the books. LEAH: Definitely. ROB: There are so many stories within churches of somebody running off with the money. So having somebody guard that and even guard your ad budget as well, and use it well – it seems like it's an expertise that is really hard to hire for within a church. Now, one trend I am starting to see significantly – and maybe we are just extra crazy down here in Georgia, but – LEAH: I think the whole world is crazy right now, Rob. [laughs] The whole world is crazy, oh my goodness. ROB: [laughs] The churches that are meeting in person are starting to really hammer that message. I am seeing this on signs, I am seeing Facebook ads for churches that are saying, “Hey, we're meeting in person.” That's a very obvious differentiator for some people. Everybody wants to meet together. I'm not sure I would recommend it, but we will sidestep that for a moment. It's a question of how, I think also. It's a question of how that needs to be resonant. But you, I would imagine, also work with some churches that are choosing not to meet in person right now, which seems to present a tremendous marketing challenge. I think we can probably extract something out to other businesses from this. How are you looking at these churches that are not meeting in person? How are they engaging new people? How are they differentiating? How do you make this “Join a Zoom call and watch our Sunday video” appealing? Or is there a completely different strategy you're seeing that's also working? LEAH: You are asking some great questions, because this year has actually been an unbelievable year for all of our churches. I would say in years past, most of our churches were very focused on what they were doing in person – the experience that people would have as they came onto their campus or came into their church. There were online offerings as well, maybe either services being streamed online or available on demand or maybe a group or a class that you could be a part of online, but that was almost like a secondary offering that our churches made available for folks. Well, we all have lived through 2020. In March, April, as our nation was really shut down, our churches were so quick to respond. Obviously, they knew they needed to close to be safe and to make that the priority, and then very quickly they made digital, their online opportunities for their congregations and communities, the main focus. Even now, several of our churches are meeting in person; they are making that available – but all of the data that we see – I would say most of our churches are seeing less than half of what they had seen pre-COVID. They're seeing less than half of their numbers coming back. For a variety of reasons, people are choosing to stay home and be incredibly safe. We hear our pastors and church leaders wanting people to do that. They want people's health and safety to be a top priority. So our churches continue to make those online opportunities a high priority and are thrilled to be connecting with people in that way. ROB: I feel like I could pull on so many threads and go so many different directions here. One thing that does fascinate me a little bit also – when you're working with churches, because a lot of the job is on the weekend, I think many churches struggle with boundaries. When you have weekly communications that need to go out, for the sanity of your own team, Leah, I imagine you have to set some boundaries that you hold to that the client doesn't really like. How do you think about being adaptable, but creating a cadence and a process that is respectful of what needs to go out and also respectful of your team, even if the client doesn't like it? LEAH: You're right, Rob. There's so many ways that we could take this conversation. This has become so important for our team this year, and this applies to our churches. I think it would apply to your listeners as well. No matter who you are, where you work, this year has rocked all of our worlds, and I believe it's been a huge gut check time for every single one of us. Are you passionate about the work you're doing? So for us at Fishhook, for our churches – but I'm hearing this from my friends who work in all kinds of companies and organizations; maybe it's even a friend who's a stay-at-home mom or dad - this has been a year where we're all feeling unsettled and you've had to dig deep to carry on. So for us, with our team, we've done a lot of soul-searching. Are we called to our mission? And how are we going to live that out? What we're finding through these months is that we feel more passionate about our work than we ever have, so we kind of let passion over boundaries sometimes drive us. How that looks for our Fishhook team is we try to just be all-in with our work, but then all-in with our families or our friends or things outside of work. Sometimes there is a time to run hard to meet a deadline for a client or to be available, maybe as you're saying, on a Saturday or Sunday if something comes up, to be able to help them and troubleshoot. But then you know there's also a time to have rest and downtime and to step away. So we are always trying to balance those priorities. In a given week, if someone jumped in to do something to help one of our churches on the weekend, are they taking some time during the week off, or are they working shorter days or whatever? So I would say day in, day out, week in, week out, we're trying to juggle that. We work with our folks to make sure that they're getting to be the person they want to be, both in the midst of our work, being super passionate about our work, but also as a wife, as a husband, as a mom, as a dad, as a friend, as someone involved in their own church, in their own community. ROB: That's a great combination of focus on the client but also on providing that rest when it's needed. You mentioned an interesting dimension. Even the journey of the firm is interesting here. You came into this company two years in. How did you become enticed to join and eventually even to go so far as to buy out your partner? LEAH: Thanks for asking. It's my own personal story. Again, I've mentioned my faith means so much to me. For me, I just feel like God has been at work in my life and He opened up some opportunities for me. Step by step, I was able to take those, and it leads to where I now have full-time work with this growing team and getting to do work that I care so much about. That's a huge blessing. I would say 15 years ago, Evan McBroom, our founder, had just started the firm, and his hope – it was kind of aspirational at that point – his hope was to serve churches and ministries. He was definitely getting some traction and taking on different projects. He is an entrepreneur. He has lots of ideas. We had started our family. I have an 18-year-old and a 16-year-old, and I've been here 15 years, so I had left the agency that I'd been with for several years and was staying at home with my children. I knew Evan; we got together for coffee. The opportunity to do some part-time work at that point so that I could be at home with my daughters and to also do this work with him to start building a team – I was at the right place at the right time. Really, our skillsets, Evan's and mine, matched so much. He had big ideas and was looking for someone to come alongside and really help put arms and legs to that. And that's really my skillset, to really build things out and to work on longer term relationships with our clients. He had gotten some initial projects going, and I had thoughts and ideas about how to make that work that would be even more strategic and longer term to support our churches and ministries. For me, that is a huge lesson as a leader. I'm always looking for who is my complement, who is our team's complement. As you're looking for who will lead with you, as you're looking at who will serve on your team, who brings what you need? Who complements you? We all have our different gifts and strengths, but who can come alongside you and really propel you forward? That's how it started with Evan, and we've been able to build the team. We have an incredible team. They all care so much about our mission and add so much to the work that we do, and I would say of the seven of us, we need every single person. I could literally walk through each person and say what they bring to our team that is just so important, both within our team as we work together internally, but then also as we serve and support our clients. ROB: For the sake of the audience that may not know what a typical cadence of communications looks like for a church, what are the different touchpoints of communication that you find yourself involved in? Let's say for a church that's using most of what you do, let's say on a weekly or monthly basis. LEAH: Sure thing. For us, our favorite relationships are the ongoing ones where we really get to know – and I would assume this is true for every agency setting, where it's an ongoing relationship. There's trust, there's open communication. Those relationships where you can each say whatever you're thinking – in a respectful way, but it's like no question is dumb, no idea is too big or too small. I just love those kinds of relationships with our clients. Often with our clients we start with branding work. Let me step back. We do assessment work and then branding work, and those parallel together. Those are a great complement together where we're working to understand that church, how they're communicating. Their key audiences are often their internal staff and leaders, their congregation, and then their community – and when I say community, I mean both locally, who is physically their local community, but then also online. So, really assessing what their mission and goals are, what they're trying to do, and then thinking about how their marketing and communications efforts can propel their mission and vision forward to connect with either young people or families or the people of their community, whatever goals they have set out. Often we're assessing who they are and what we see and then working on brand development with them, and then working to carry that out. What does that look like? Obviously we're doing a lot with our churches and their online strategy and presence, so web work and social strategies, and what they're doing with their YouTube channel. It's fun because our churches, more and more, are thinking, “Where is our congregation and our community at? The people we want to connect with, we want to reach, where are they at? We want to be there too.” That's what a lot of our work is spent on: “Who are you, church? Let's define that. Let's define your distinct story. Who are you already connecting with? Who's part of your congregation? And who are you striving to connect with? Where are they? Let's build communications and marketing efforts that will help you reach those people.” In the old days, I don't know, the '80s or the '90s, when I was growing up, in a church setting you would have a bulletin which was handed to you as you walked in on a Sunday morning. You'd maybe have a printed newsletter or a flyer or a postcard. There's still a place for a couple of print pieces here and there, but so much of what we're thinking about now is I would say two things. Their online strategy and how they're connecting with people digitally – what they're making available, out of weekend services typically, but also what they're making available every day. How are they engaging with people online, answering questions, giving hope, encouragement? What support groups or classes are available? Really, churches are doing ministry every single day of the week, and obviously, online you can do it 24/7 as well. So helping our churches really stretch to connect and be ready where people are. The other thing we think a lot about with our clients is their experience when people do come onto their campuses, interact with them, whether through an event or a service or whatever they might be doing within their church building. Is that experience reflective of who they are, what their brand is? Just trying to make all of this consistent so that any time you interact with a church, it's on brand. It tells their story, and they're bringing value to you. ROB: Brand experience all the way through to churches. Makes sense once you say it and once you think about it. Leah, when you reflect on the journey so far with Fishhook, what are some lessons you've learned along the way? What might you do differently if you were starting anew – let's say in 2021, so you don't have to assume too much about 2020. LEAH: Is this like lessons throughout my career? ROB: What would you do differently in building Fishhook? LEAH: If you do Enneagram, I'm a 3. Myers-Briggs, I'm an ESTJ. So I love to achieve things. Like, what's our plan? Come hell or high water, let's get it done. Let's move forward. That can be my go-to or my default. What I've learned along the way – and goodness, 2020 has been an incredible reminder for this – is there's a time to really be most focused on how I can help and serve others, and a lot of times it's time to set aside my own personal agenda or thoughts. In 2020, as I lead at Fishhook, there are times where it's like “But this is what I want to happen. I want to move this forward. I'm ready to go.” And it's like, you know what? That's not what our team needs right now, or that's not what our churches are capable of right now or asking for. It's not a good fit for the situation. So I have to sometimes set aside my own personal drive or my agenda. The other leaders – Shayla, Amy, who I lead with – they are so great at processing with me what's going on and what's right in this situation. We're continually thinking, what does our team need? How can we be focused on serving each other as a team in this season? We have some internal values that we try to live out. And then with our clients, what do they really need? What will really propel them forward? Let's care for them first, let's build the relationship first, and then we're going to help them go fast and far, we hope. Those are some of the things I've been learning. ROB: It sounds really helpful to have those sounding boards around you as well. Leah, when people want to connect with you and with Fishhook, where should they go to find you? LEAH: We would love for folks to check us out online, fishhook.us. We just launched a new brand experience and a new website in recent weeks. So we are really trying to get even more focused on who we are and the value we bring to our churches. You'll have to let us know. We'd love to hear from folks what you see as you take a look. We are trying to put out more and more content, so if you go to fishhook.us/learn, there's all kinds of content there to interact with. We'd love to hear from people. Also, on social media, Facebook and Instagram, we're at Fishhook HQ for that. I'm happy for people to email me as well at leah@fishhook.us. ROB: Excellent. Leah, thank you for coming on the podcast. Congratulations to you and Fishhook. This has been great to dive into an unfamiliar niche for this podcast, but also see how much really is theoretically consistent, even though the purpose is much higher in your case. LEAH: Rob, thanks so much for the opportunity. Appreciate it. ROB: All right. Thank you. Be well. LEAH: Take care. ROB: Thank you for listening. The Marketing Agency Leadership Podcast is presented by Converge. Converge helps digital marketing agencies and brands automate their reporting so they can be more profitable, accurate, and responsive. To learn more about how Converge can automate your marketing reporting, email info@convergehq.com, or visit us on the web at convergehq.com.

Waylon Tate is Principal at J. Waylon & Associates, a full spectrum PR and marketing agency that provides traditional public relations, digital outreach, and advertising services, mostly for startups. He and two of his friends with their own companies have created what Waylon refers to as a “communications trifecta,” with the ability to collectively and collaboratively meet every need an entrepreneurial startup might have. Web development, graphics, and photography? The client works with Waylon's friend Tracy at Critical Launch. Printed material? The client may work with Waylon & Associate's inhouse printshop or with Waylon's friend Mikey at PrintRunner.    Although Marketing and PR are quite different fields, both rely on attention to the bigger picture and the longer game. With an understanding of both disciplines, Waylon believes it makes sense for his clients to be able to get both of these experiences “in the same place.” Public relations requires an understanding of what is “warm and fuzzy” to particular network and media audiences. Waylon works closely with each client to elicit their operational definition of PR. For some, it may be no more than editorial solicitation. Others may want to reach into the influencer market, an investment which Waylon often recommends, especially in direct-to-consumer businesses, for its ability to provide the biggest return on investment.  Influencers do not have to be “big names,” so much as they are people who have “come up through the ranks and are really good at taking pictures and developing a broad network of supporters.” Approaches to senior program producers or publication editors have to include not only the topic of conversation, but also how the material will resonate with that platform's audience.  Waylon believes the days of the promotional press releases are past and suggests that they may no longer be effective because of the intense competition for “air space.” The key to everything is communications which, Waylon says, “is all about relationships.” Relationships with the editors and the writers the agency works with have far more impact than sending out press releases. You have to think, “What does an audience want to hear about?” Waylon believes that, in the coming months, ecommerce is “going to absolutely explode into a level we probably can't even comprehend at the moment.” Waylon did not start his career in any form of Marketing. After completing his Master in Public Policy (capstone project: Citizens Prosecutor Attorney), he finished a prestigious fellowship in Washington, D.C., and returned to Dallas to work in the District Attorney's Office under the Texas's first African-American DA. When the DA left office, Waylon had a choice: to take a cushy job in corporate communications . . . or to strike out on his own. Today, his public service experience plays into a new gig that he and Tracy started: Politicize.co. Waylon explains that their success is the result of reinterpreting what PR and marketing look like for progressive political campaigns. They use the same model and flow for political campaigns as they use for marketing restaurants and storefronts. The purpose is the same: to get people to buy into a brand.  Waylon can be reached on his agency's website at: https://www.jwaylon.com/ or on politicize.co. Transcript Follows: ROB: Welcome to the Marketing Agency Leadership Podcast. I'm your host, Rob Kischuk, and I'm joined today by Waylon Tate, Principal at J. Waylon & Associates based in Dallas, Texas. Welcome to the podcast, Waylon. WAYLON: Thanks, Rob, for having me. ROB: Excellent to have you here. Why don't you start off by giving us a rundown of J. Waylon & Associates and the expertise of that business?  WAYLON: Absolutely. J. Waylon & Associates is a full spectrum PR and marketing agency here in Dallas, Texas. We really dive into both of those categories at the same time, handling everything from traditional public relations like editorial solicitation, navigating all of the editorial aspects of PR, but also diving pretty heavily into digital outreach and advertising as well. ROB: Waylon, you sit at this intersection of marketing and PR. What I've seen is quite often, firms will specialize in either one or the other and actively choose not to engage in the other side of the business. Why do you think that is? WAYLON: It's interesting that you say that, first and foremost, but my approach was always different. I think when I started my agency, I came into it with an active understanding of both of those different disciplines. Marketing definitely has its own angles and things that you need to do, and PR is a very specialized field as well. I really wanted to enter into the marketplace myself as a startup addressing both of those needs to the clients. We work mostly with startups, and it made more sense to me, as I think it made sense to our clients, that they were able to get both of those experiences in the same house. ROB: Got it. Nonetheless, we all have to draw lines in our business. What lines of business have you then chosen not to engage in? Particular practices or things outside of the lanes you've chosen to be in, and why? WAYLON: Gosh, that's a good question. I wish I had a better response for you. I'm kind of an all-inclusive kind of guy. To give you a little bit more of a backstory as to how my agency came out, there really is a creative hub. It's a trifecta of communications, if you will. About 6 or 7 years ago, me and two of my best friends decided that we wanted to start our own gig. We really did create a communications trifecta. Myself, J. Waylon & Associates, we do mostly marketing and public relations. My best friend Tracy owns another company called Critical Launch, which does web development and graphics and all of those kind of things, photography and a number of other things. My other friend Mikey owns PrintRunner. So we actually have two print shops, one in-house here in downtown Dallas and another one in a city not too far away. We were really able to collectively meet every single need that a startup would encounter as they were going on that journey of entrepreneurship – everything from printing business cards to building their website to building out all of their social accounts and then to fully engage and build out platforms to increase their brand awareness through public relations, but also increase their on-the-ground sales through marketing efforts as well. ROB: It's really interesting how you've created specialization and focus while still serving a broad set of needs by having different entities and brands to serve those different needs.  WAYLON: Absolutely. ROB: Public relations means a lot of things to a lot of people. How have you seen the definition of public relations evolve and maybe even refocus after some of the noise – PR has become so noisy that maybe it's not even effective. What would you say? WAYLON: Well, I'll tell you this. You just hit the nail on the head. In fact, when we're engaging with a potential new client, most of the time they don't really understand that public relations is a very broad term. I think it's important that we create an operational definition for each client in their own framework. What does PR mean to them? For some clients that means nothing but doing editorial solicitation; for other clients that means reaching into the influencer market. To touch on the question that you just asked, I can tell you that influencers, love them or hate them, have become a huge need for most businesses, especially in direct-to-consumer businesses that are selling merchandise. We represent a number of bars and restaurants, and I can tell you the influencer marketing that we do has made – I will actually encourage my clients to move a considerable amount of advertising dollars into hiring influencers because the return on that investment is normally much higher. ROB: What does an influencer look like for a local restaurant? Are these A-list, B-list celebrities? Or is it something more nuanced? Is it more of a social person with a high audience? WAYLON: Probably the second of those. It's not so much about fame. I think it's so much about the peer-to-peer respect. I don't know if you know this, Rob, but there's certainly an underlying group of influencers in the food marketplace that are really able to capture in a different way than an A- or B-list celebrity would in that I think the public at large has become much more cognizant of how the whole influencer marketing game works, and they're more willing to participate in an activity or maybe visit a place that they wouldn't normally, based on what an influencer suggests rather than what a celebrity is getting paid to talk about, even though the influencers are many times paid as well. ROB: For a food influencer, I'm picturing in my mind someone who got through half a season of Top Chef, so people got to follow them before they got eliminated. Is that one category? Or is it something I wouldn't even expect? WAYLON: I would think that might be one category, but the majority of influencers that we work with here in Dallas – and keep in mind, Dallas is the number five media market in the country; we have a big population here as well. But no, to be honest with you, these are people that have come up through the ranks and are really good at taking really, really good pictures and developing a broad network of supporters. I think, again, we always have to assign definitions to these terms, and they're forever evolving, but no, the majority of influencers that we work with have a really large following but have never had media exposure through reality television and those means. ROB: Really interesting. I've never really thought about this alignment between influencer and PR because both of them require an attention to the bigger picture and the longer game. To an extent, you can measure the lift to a restaurant as to how one month was over another, but in a broader sense, much like – as you would call it, I think – an editorial solicitation, you're not necessarily getting leads coming in or credit cards coming in that you can link back in the traditional attribution model. WAYLON: That is absolutely true. In fact, there really is no – and this is going to sound incredibly crazy, probably, to hear – but I tell my clients, there are metrics. There are analytics. If we deploy a digital advertisement, we're going to be able to follow that train, that sales tunnel to understand where it's coming from. With public relations, it is a much different ballgame, and many times it's very difficult to navigate earned media and to understand exactly how you're getting from Point A to Point B and was it effective in placing those dollars there. But they serve two very different purposes. For example, in March, believe it or not, during the beginning of the COVID pandemic, we launched a pretty high-end wine bar and marketplace called Trova here in Dallas. We knew going in that we were going to be up against some obstacles, obviously. But we really utilized each one of those services in a very different way. For the public relations avenue, we built out a communications plan that was driven in understanding that there would be some media interest in “Why is this woman investing so much money into opening this wine bar in the middle of a pandemic when the city is really shut down?” There was indeed a lot of interest in having that conversation, which really increased brand awareness. We saw a huge uptick to the website and other digital sources when those articles started generating. But for the marketing aspect, we understood that we were going to have to really pivot to different ways of getting people engaged and seeing the follow-through to purchase. Was that curbside? Was that order deliveries to go? Traditional ways of marketing a restaurant is you're trying to bring people into the space. Well, obviously, in a pandemic when you're mandated to not be inside of the space, you have to understand, this is moving forward; the client is moving forward with opening the space, so how do you do that from a marketing perspective? We did it. It wasn't easy, and we're still not easy. We're still working through that. ROB: I have a friend in the restaurant business, and I don't know whether he has a very good PR firm or whether he is an instinctive public relater. You mentioned, “Why is this woman opening a restaurant and spending lots of money on it to open during a pandemic?” There are so many layers and hooks and pegs to pull on there, versus what a restaurateur might want to do is say (A) “I'm opening a restaurant or (B) “I'm opening a restaurant; here's the kind of food I'm making.” They're such basic stories. How do you think about turning this factual story of “I'm opening a restaurant” into something that is worth talking about, that has a hook to it? WAYLON: The essence of public relations specifically dealing with the media is you really have to understand the audiences of each one of those networks or publications. What we always do as PR agents is try to figure out what is the warm and fuzzy. And you have to understand that if we're going to senior producers of morning shows or editors of particular publications, we have to explain to them in the pitch not only “this is what we're wanting you to talk about,” but “this is how it's going to resonate with your audience.” There are a number of magazines here in Dallas that focus on nothing but the food and beverage industry, so the pitches that we had to them were much different than the pitches we had to really engaged podcasts or the morning shows. For the first probably 4 weeks that we deployed this communications campaign, most of those conversations really circled around her, the owner, and this journey that she was about to go through. I think that what we found was there was a really good pickup of people that were interested – yes, there's a new space opening up and it's something that we want to visit, but also, I think she got a lot of support because everyone in the city understands what entrepreneurs are going through. I think they wanted to be in many ways the wind beneath her wings of making this journey that was about to take place a reality and support her however they could. ROB: Really interesting. I'll ask, with that level of customization going into the pitch to the publication or to the outlet, what then is the place in 2020 for the vaunted press release? WAYLON: Let me tell you this, Rob. I haven't sent a press release in probably 10 months. Again, I think that maybe it could be the difference in generational folks that are working communications, but press releases to me – and this is probably going to sound like sacrilege to a lot of other publicists that are going to listen to this podcast – in many ways are archaic because you're competing with so many other brands that are trying to push whatever it is that they're wanting to talk about. Communications in and of itself is all about relationships. We rely much more on the relationships that we have with the editors and the writers that we work with than we do on sending out press releases. It just doesn't make sense to me. I mean, maybe if you're in consumer goods and you're creating a new product or you're launching a brand new item, that might be a space for that, and then you put something on the wire. But for really hyperlocal communications, at least for me and my agency, we don't really send out press releases. ROB: Got it. Thanks for the take there. I appreciate that sort of thing. You can certainly get pitched on all sorts of platforms and all sorts of different plans to push out press releases, but that thought of “What is the audience wanting to hear about?” is a much more thoughtful approach to it. Waylon, you mentioned a little bit of the mechanics of starting and the partners and the trifecta of businesses, but let's step a moment into the “why.” What made you decide to put a stake in the ground and start your own business instead of being a part of joining/leading someone else's? WAYLON: I found my way to public relations and marketing in an odd way. I have a Master's in Public Policy. I had finished a pretty prestigious fellowship in Washington, D.C., came back to Dallas and started working with the district attorney's office. In fact, the capstone project that I did for my master's project was starting what was called the Citizens Prosecutor Academy. Now, keep in mind the Dallas District Attorney's office is the seventh largest in the country. It's huge. They have some 500 employees. So, to be able to engage as a master's student with such a large entity was a pretty cool experience for me. But what it did was it opened me up to a district attorney that was the first-ever African-American elected to that office in the entire state of Texas. He was on Bill Maher and in the New York Times, something on a much bigger scale than a normal district attorney would be. I really got a firsthand kind of power worker experience with communications just in that experience alone. When he left office, I really had two choices. I was going to go into a corporate communications job and have a cush-cush experience, or I would take that leap of faith and really jump out on my own. If I never make another good decision, that was the good one to make. That was really the way I found myself to PR and marketing. Then it was just a really good time for my two friends as well. I think we all foresaw what was coming. We really looked internally at our own strengths and what we could bring to the table, and it made sense, for us at least, that I would be able to, as a good communicator, bring in the clients and then offer them stellar web development that I could push over to Tracy, or all of their printing needs and move over to Mikey. And it worked equally with the other two; if Tracy was developing a website for one of his clients, it made sense for him to suggest PR and marketing to me. ROB: If one looks at your background, clearly you have that background in public service. You also have a branch of business that you work on involving political activity, and I would imagine some PR and marketing around that world. How do you think about the cyclicality of that business? The good part is you have a steady-state PR business that is operating when there's not anything of political note to dive into, but then you have a year like this year where there's everything political to dive into. How do you handle that burst of activity on the political side with also trying to build a resilient and ongoing business in the traditional PR and marketing space? WAYLON: Well, with a lot of caution and care, I'll tell you that. You always have to approach the situation when you own your own business with, like I said, caution and care. With J. Waylon & Associates, we are a PR and marketing agency for brands in particular – storefronts, authors, attorneys, doctors, things of that nature. You never really want to trail into the political conversation when you're dealing with storefronts specifically. So, we really wanted to separate those. Tracy and I launched a whole other gig called Politicize.co, and you're right; the cyclical nature of being in this 2-year or 4-year rotation, we gear up and we understand that in those crucial months, I'm going to have to pull back a little bit and let the employees work more on the marketing and PR side. We normally don't engage with new clients during those months because I'm all about giving a stellar experience, especially in the onboarding process, to new clients. So just making those wise decisions as to understanding your business as a whole. What does the PR and marketing agency look like on a year calendar? When are our busiest months? Specifically for us, we deal with a lot of bars and restaurants. September, October, November, we always know that's going to be the busiest months for those businesses. The same thing with the political company. We understand, even if it's a municipal election – that's going to be in May, so you have to give that 3-month ramp before that. Or in a 4-year cycle, a presidential election year, you're looking at November, so what does 4-6 months before that look like? ROB: It's interesting because what I hear you saying in a way is that on the political side, not that you don't have to work for the new business, but you know that for that season of time, your new business is going to come in through the political arm. So you can spin down some of the new business on the PR side. Overall, it's a fascinating solution. I did some work once upon a time in a political technology startup and watched as those different campaign workers would – a campaign ends earlier than you thought, so some of them – you kind of scatter to the winds. People scatter to other campaigns, they scatter to PAC-like entities, some into local. But you have a solution where you get to go back to your business when it's done. WAYLON: That's correct. Good for me, right? You always have to be cognizant of your time, and that's something, the older I get, that I really understand – understanding how much time I need to reserve for whatever aspect of my life, be it professional or personal. Tracy and I really brought a new interpretation to what PR and marketing looked like for progressive political campaigns. Again, I think that's what has been our success in that market. We didn't look at the campaign as campaigns have been looked at for many, many years. We engaged campaigns that were doing nothing but on-ground canvassing and had no digital plan of action in place, and we really approached even the political campaigns that we've worked on in a private marketplace approach. The campaign is in and of itself a brand, and you're trying to get people to buy onto that brand. So what do you need to do? It was the same model and flow that we use for the clients with restaurants or storefronts. ROB: Some of the work I was in – it was back in 2008, 2006, 2010 era. At the time, there was sort of a suspicion. Any campaign you engaged with at that time wanted you to declare your party allegiance, and it was almost outside of their frame of thought, even 10 years ago, the possibility of a neutral third party – even though as a technology firm you're going to think about how to serve the full scope of audience of parties. How has that trended? Are campaigns more open to something like a NationBuilder and this idea that technology can be nonpartisan? Or has it required a little bit more specialization into declaring an allegiance as a solutions provider? WAYLON: I have to say, the elections that we've been able to work on thus far have been in a municipal environment, or at least a local environment. We haven't really worked on state campaigns yet. With municipal elections, they are nonpartisan. You can always identify just through their actions, the pillars of their campaigns, what side of the equation they mostly fit on. Tracy and I were adamant from the very beginning about the side of the equation that we wanted to work on, and it's written into the DNA of the company itself. In fact, I think the tagline is that we are “bringing progressive campaigns into focus” or something of that nature. But I think that it would be difficult for a tech agency like you were talking about – and they are very much partisan when you get to NationBuilder and things like that and the fundraising technologies that are out there – but if you're handling the PR and marketing campaigning stuff, even on a local level, it would just be hard to have as much passion into the campaign if you don't believe in the cause of what they're doing. ROB: Right. That aligned purpose is really helpful. That's the conversation we had with Michael Skolnik of We Are Soze up in Brooklyn back at South by Southwest about a year and a half ago. They had very passionate people in Brooklyn who were aligned to progressive causes, but fascinatingly, I think they were more beneficially ideological than partisan. They knew what they wanted to happen in the world more than they knew the party. They just happened to line up. WAYLON: I'll tell you this: that passion goes a long way. From the owners of those two different agencies, you see the success measured in very different ways. If we're representing a new startup and they're selling something to the public, of course we get really excited when we start seeing growth or they start scaling. But it's a very different kind of excited or measurement of success when we know that a campaign is getting to the finish line and it's probably going to go in their favor because we understand the impact of those two different things. For a startup, you're going to see success measured in dollars, bottom line, what does that look like? But for a campaign, there are so many ideological things that are wrapped into campaigns, and you understand that in most cases, that campaign and the candidate, should they succeed, is going to be making hopefully changes for a lot of people. It's interesting the way we step back and look at what success looks like for each one of those situations. ROB: Really interesting that difference in the level of passion and involvement you have. It's hard to be so personally impacted by a SaaS product unless it's very, very close to your heart. Waylon, when you think about the history of the firm so far, what are some lessons you have learned along the way of building J. Waylon & Associates that you might do a little bit differently if you were starting – let's say today or even looking forward, post-pandemic, in case you would do something remarkably different right now because of where we are. WAYLON: I think probably the biggest lesson that I've learned – we had a lockdown, obviously, here for a couple of months, and it gave me a lot of time to really look back at what I've done so far and what I want the next chapters of my agency to look like. I think if I could go back in time and tell myself something when I first started, it would be to be a little bit more picky and choosy as to what you do. Don't take all of the business that comes your way just because you would have business. Really carve out somewhat of a niche into the brands that you want to represent. Just as any small business owner, in the very beginning you're excited to have any business, whatever that may be. But the more successful that we've become, the more I can be a little bit more picky and choosy as to who we represent. ROB: Where has that led you? How are you deciding what to say no to right now? WAYLON: I daresay low-hanging fruit. This probably comes from a personal trait of mine, which is I want everything to be perfect all of the time for my clients. So it's difficult for me personally to not give the same approach, thought, care, and attention to a $3,000 client that we give to a $20,000 a month client. So I'm constantly having to pull back and go, I need to be paid for my time. How does that look? What kind of clients can be we bring on? Even if I fall in love with the idea or the concept, I have to make really big decisions about myself and the clients we bring on because I wouldn't be a good businessman myself if I gave the same amount of time and attention to a lower budget client that I do to a higher budget client. ROB: Definitely something to learn from that there. Waylon, what is coming up for J. Waylon & Associates or perhaps the broader marketing world in general that is exciting to you? WAYLON: One and the same. I think that you're going to see – we are already seeing this – that ecommerce is going to absolutely explode into a level that we probably can't even comprehend at the moment. The agency is starting to bring on more clients that are in the ecommerce marketplace, which is good for us. We have clients now that have ecommerce shops. It's really forcing us as marketers to dive deeper and to really increase the tools that are in our own tool belt, to be able to offer those services to our clients at the same level of esteem that we offer other marketing solutions and public relations solutions to our clients. ROB: That's exciting. We'll look for much more through the end of the year and in 2021. I wish you and your team the best. Thank you for coming on the podcast, Waylon. WAYLON: Thanks so much, Rob. I appreciate it. ROB: Be well. Thank you for listening. The Marketing Agency Leadership Podcast is presented by Converge. Converge helps digital marketing agencies and brands automate their reporting so they can be more profitable, accurate, and responsive. To learn more about how Converge can automate your marketing reporting, email info@convergehq.com, or visit us on the web at convergehq.com.

Joel Matthew, Founder and CEO at Fortress Consulting, started his company after his experience selling advertising at CBS radio and television. When he “could not make the sale” because the companies he approached did not want to drive prospects to  their poorly-designed websites, he took action. Joel figured he could solve their problem (and his) by finding creative agencies to build content and great technical website and app developers to get out their messages. When he could not find that marriage of creative and technical in one organization, Joel founded Fortress Consulting to “bridge the gap.” Fortress Consulting began as an advertising agency, web designer, and app developer, but settled on being a digital marketing agency. (Joel says he loves the trackability and measurability of digital.) The agency's focus expanded to include  content development, video podcasting, and creating customized, tailored digital marketing strategies to drive increased traffic and revenue to client sites.  Fortress serves clients worldwide in a wide range of industries but finds the “sweet spot” for its strategies and price points with companies with over $20 million in revenue. From his seven pre-agency years in media, Joel learned customer relationship management and how to build friendships with customers. “Fortress family,” he explains. “That's how we treat our customers and our employees.” Before COVID, he relied on face-to-face social interactions to forge strong client relationships. The pandemic has “leveled the playing field,” so that customers now focus on the “value you bring, who you've worked with, and your results.” Joel continues to “show the love” for his clients by contacting them to see how they are doing and by returning to them a percentage of their marketing investment in the form of thoughtful, personal gifts. He reminds us that 80% of a company's business often comes from 20% of its customers . . . and it's those customers he wants to reward. While a business might need more margin in order to afford to “gift,” Joel says it's not so much about the cost of the gift as it is about thoughtfulness. He repeatedly emphasizes the importance of really knowing clients.   Income streams for Fortress are diverse. Retainer clients for digital marketing, social, SEO, pay-per-click,  content, or even integrated campaigns provide long-term recurring income. “Homeruns” come when the agency builds client websites and apps. Launching a site is a cause for celebration . . . celebrating the client in much the same way as does the earlier-mentioned gifting. Expanding services have brought in new levels of clients and the ability to justifiably increase fees.  Joel can be contacted at his agency's website at gofortress.com or on social with screennames that are some combination of Fortress or GoFortress. He also started a higher education company this past year. Beyond Academics' purpose is to “discover, design, and deploy” strategies that enable higher education and lifelong learning initiatives to thrive in the “new normal.”  Information about Beyond Academics, which sits in the position of a “client company” of Fortress, is at beyondacademics.com Transcript Follows: ROB: Welcome to the Marketing Agency Leadership Podcast. I'm your host, Rob Kischuk, and I'm joined today by Joel Matthew, CEO and Founder at Fortress Consulting, based in Chicago, Illinois. Welcome to the podcast, Joel. JOEL: Thanks a lot, Rob. ROB: Excellent to have you here. Why don't you start off by telling us about the focus areas of Fortress Consulting? What is it that y'all are known for? JOEL: Sure. When I first started, I struggled with how to describe it because we're part advertising agency, part web solver, app solver. So I just defaulted to saying we're a digital marketing agency. It's evolved over the years. We're heading into our 10th year in business. The way that I would say it's presently constructed is a lot of brand strategy, marketing, consulting, go to market strategy, but then our bread and butter and our passion lies in digital. Digital for us includes website design/development, building apps, and then customized, tailored digital marketing strategies to get our clients more traffic and more revenue to their sites. ROB: Are there any particular segments you focus on, whether that's a size of firm or a particular vertical market? JOEL: Yeah. We've gone through exercises to try to define this. As far as verticals go, we're pretty broad, more of a generalist approach. We've got clients in real estate, in legal, in technology, in retail – everything you could think of. Higher education, large nonprofit. But that's been really where we've focused: trying to serve everybody. We now have focused that a little bit more. Our ideal target are companies over $20 million because, based on the price points and based on the strategies that we like to employ, that seems to be a sweet spot for us. But we've got clients larger, smaller, everywhere in between. ROB: Is there a geographic pull around the Chicagoland giant area? Or has it become pretty dispersed on that side as well? JOEL: It's all over. Yeah, we have clients outside of the U.S. as well now – France, Canada, all over. But I'd say about 60% is in the Chicago market and 40%, we've got clients on both coasts and south and pretty much all over now. ROB: That's such a fascinating aspect. We really haven't talked much on the podcast about how there are so many agencies and consulting firms – and these clients you're talking about, these are meaningful, material – $20 million in revenue is a real size client. There are probably a bunch of agencies and development partners in their local area that they could work with, and they might like to meet up for a meal or coffee. But generally they just don't. You don't see an agency that's hit any sort of meaningful size and scale – I don't see them where they're just in their local area. How has your journey been in finding these clients outside of your geography? How do they come to you? JOEL: That's a great question. I look back at my career, 7 years in media and corporate for large corporations and television and radio, and I look at what I learned at each of those places, and one of my findings of what I learned from my time in television was customer relationship management and building friendships with my customers. I really took that when I started Fortress. We have this phrase, “Fortress family,” and that's how we treat our customers and our employees. A lot of that is entertaining and face to face and taking them out for games and taking them out for drinks or dinner or whatever that looks like, but especially with COVID, the game has changed. That is basically off the table. So now it's all about what value you bring, who you have worked with, what results you can show. It's kind of leveled the playing field a bit. So that's how we've been able to attain clients from all over the country. They see what we're doing for our clients that we started with locally, and it's more of the thought process of “How do I get some of that?” Now especially, people who work from home, they're virtual, they're remote, and it's less about taking them out to a nice dinner than it is about, “Hey, jump on Zoom, tell me how it's going and let's connect.” But there still is that personal aspect where you want to know what's going on with them in their lives or their families and what they're about, a vacation they just took, so you have those human touchpoints as well. ROB: Is there anything in your client entertaining – have you adopted any sort of gifting strategy or something to still show some love, even though you can't get together? Or has it been more on the personal side? JOEL: My wife and our CFO are not fans of this, but I'm big on gifting and going big on this. I look at it as a certain percentage of the revenue, and our clients get hooked up. I want something that's going to impress them and something that is going to be memorable, not “Hey, here's a branded phone charger” – which is actually what we did last year, which I still think is kind of lame. But yeah, I want to go big for the guys that – they say 80% of your business comes from 20% of your clients. I'm going to take care of those guys in a major way. ROB: You mentioned as a percent of revenue; even if you said 1% of client revenue is a gift, that's a meaningful thing. How many people are on your team right now? JOEL: We've got 15 here in Chicago and then we've got 40 guys overseas. ROB: You extrapolate that out – this is, I would imagine, a multimillion dollar business. So even 1% of revenue is a lot of money on gifts. JOEL: It is. ROB: How do you think about giving the right sort of gift for the client? Is that natural to you, or by having a meaningful allocation, do you find you can give an impactful gift without knowing exactly what they want? JOEL: It goes back to that personal aspect of knowing your customer. When Apple released AirPods, I was going to get AirPods for everybody. I found out from talking to people that some people didn't like AirPods. They liked the Beats version better because they worked out and it was a better fit. So just talking to people and knowing your customers helps with that. But I get a lot of joy from giving gifts and taking care of our clients, so it does come naturally. I see it as they've been with us for this long, and I want to make sure we take care of them and surprise them in some kind of meaningful way. ROB: I want to take some notes on that. It's such a good point. Some agencies you talk to keep a very thin margin and are very efficient, and they can deliver lower cost, but I've found that with that comes a limited ability to be generous in how you serve them and how you give back to them. So I think it's good to think about how to run a business with enough margin to gift the customer well. JOEL: Right. Yeah, it doesn't need to be anything big; it's not necessarily that you have to spend a lot of money. It's just the thoughtfulness of it is huge. For one client who I knew was into working out, we got him $99 Beats headphones and he was very excited about it. Obviously, they can all afford it themselves, but there's just a different element when your thoughtfulness goes into it. ROB: Early on, when you mentioned website development, app development, there can be such a range of expectations, particularly on the website side. You can really get into some engagements where somebody has a small site and they want small changes and they expect it to be done with a very limited budget – how have you found to manage expectations on a minimum project size for web and mobile development? Has that come naturally from that $20 million minimum revenue target? Or how have you navigated that? JOEL: That's been a challenge for us too. Obviously, any entrepreneur knows that when you're first starting out, you're doing stuff for cheap just to get some experience or to build up your client base or network or portfolio, and then the floor rises and all of a sudden you're doing a site for $1,000 and then it becomes $5,000, then it becomes $10,000, then it becomes $20,000 and so on. It has been a challenge because, for instance, one of our clients who's a private equity firm in LA has been working with us for years, so any time they buy a company, they come to us for all the branding and the digital assets and the websites. Three years ago, our pricing was probably a quarter of what it is now. Fast forward 3 years, now they're coming to us and saying, “Hey, we need an overhaul on our site.” Our pricing is now 4x what we charged their portfolio companies. But the feedback I'm getting is, “Wow, your quality has increased a ton. We can see you have people, you have a process,” so it warrants the price tag. ROB: A lot of times that price tag grows gradually and you kind of grow into it. Has there ever been a proposal that you sent out and internally, your jaw hit the floor when you realized what you had written up and the price tag you'd put on it? JOEL: [laughs] Yeah, I'm starting to have those realizations now more because we've actually grown quite a bit this year. Our average size of client has risen as we get into different services. But I don't send anything out without the expectation that we're going to win it and we're going to get it. I very rarely leave a pitch where I don't think we won it. Not much of it catches me by surprise, but yeah, there were a couple deals this year where it's like, hey, that's an extra zero than what we're used to, and it could be a game-changer if that comes in. So yeah, there are those. ROB: Congratulations. Joel, when we rewind the clock on Fortress Consulting, what's the origin story of the company? How did you come to start the company and what were those embryonic next couple of steps that made it into what it is now? JOEL: I would say it was always a desire to start something and do something. I really looked up to my older cousins, who were entrepreneurs and business guys. They were my role models for starting something. That's why I initially called it Fortress Consulting, because I wanted it to be broad enough where I could go in a bunch of different directions. But ultimately what was the lightbulb moment for me – I was working at CBS Radio and Television; I met with five clients in a row and they were all like, “Joel, I'd love to advertise with you, but my website's horrible. I can't send people to this website.” So for me, that was my lightbulb moment. I was like, I have a background in technology. I know how to code. I could probably hack this together or I could find some people that can do it so that it would be a mechanism for me to get more advertising revenue. Ultimately I started doing some research in the Chicago market for companies that could handle the creative side like an ad agency and the technical side of a web developer/app developer. I didn't really see anybody talking about it that way. What I found in my research was there were a ton of very creative advertising agencies that were building beautiful things and creating great campaigns but couldn't write a line of code. On the flipside of that, you have all these great developers and tech shops that would launch a website and then just pat you on the back and you're on your way and didn't think about the creative side or business side of how to generate traffic, how to generate venue. What happens after we deliver this technology platform? That was ultimately my lightbulb moment for creating Fortress. Initially our tagline was, “We bridge the gap between creative and technology.” That was how we started. ROB: That's an interesting mix. We've had this conversation a couple of times lately – the project-oriented nature of delivering a lot of websites and some applications versus the potentially ongoing partnership on the marketing side. But also, those are two different beasts. Delivering a software product or a site can be a little bit objective. It's done and the client is a lot of times the client itself. With marketing, you're getting outside of the client's world and asking to get a customer or a consumer in. How do you think about the different degree of accountability for results? For me, building a technology product, there's a level of certainty to it, and there's a high degree of uncertainty, I think, on the marketing side. But maybe you see it differently. JOEL: Yeah, it's definitely very nuanced and there are major differences. But the beauty of the way our business is set up is we have our recurring revenue from retainer clients who are on the digital marketing side or they're doing social with us or they're doing SEO or pay-per-click or content campaigns. Or often now it's integrated campaigns. They're on a monthly retainer with us. But then we hit these homeruns with these websites and apps, and those are the peaks and valleys of “I just closed this huge deal and this is major revenue on this project.” But yeah, ultimately what we've been focused on lately is really defining the scope of what we do so that we have a clearer understanding of what “done” looks like – because “done” to us may be different than “done” to the client. So we're very buttoned up on what the scope looks like. But the beauty of this business and why I started, and my frustration when I was working in television and radio, is a client would hand me $250,000 or $500,000 to run a campaign and there would be no tracking or attribution or data or analytics. I would have to go back to them 30 days later and say, “Hey, how'd it go? Are you selling more cars?” or “Are more people coming to the bank?”, and I felt like that was such a blind spot. So for me, that was one of the major reasons that I started Fortress. With digital, the beauty of it is every dollar they give us, I can track it and I can track it all the way down to the sale, down to the conversion. Based on the access levels that we have, I can track it from the ad to the click to what happened on the website to the actual sale. On the digital marketing side, it's great. We're really focused on data and analytics of proving the ROI. You gave me a dollar; I turned it into $1.50 or $5.00 or $7.00, whatever that looks like. On the website side, it's easier to quantify because you can see it, you can feel it. You know what your site looked like before and now you know how amazing it looks now, and you see it. What we're getting at now more is just making that more of a celebration, a launch party for when we launch a site. It goes back to the earlier topic of gifting, making it more a celebration of “Hey, you guys launched. Congratulations. Here's all this stuff.” With the digital marketing campaign, it's more of an ongoing, you're in the trenches on a long-term basis. And we want to keep those guys on forever, but it's a challenge for us to keep delivering quality results. ROB: What are the core marketing channels that you and your team are focused on, and what are the things you're maybe experimenting with right now? JOEL: The core marketing channels – we're really focused on content and video. It used to be “Hey, we'll do SEO for you and we'll do pay-per-click or search engine marketing and we'll do social media.” A lot of it is focused on content now. We put people in three tracks, typically, on our social side. One is they're not great at creating content and so we help them with that; they are good at creating content, so we can help them with strategy and scheduling; and then there are the guys that don't know what they're doing at all, and we can help them with strategy and content. So content is really something that we're focused on. Creating video. We have somebody in-house now who's really talented. She's originally a journalism major, but she's got great skills on video as well, so now we're starting to crank out these 1- to 3-minute videos, getting into helping our clients get on podcasts. Those are newer channels that we're exploring now. One of our clients that we helped launch their podcast were spending six figures a year in radio with programming and actually getting their content on radio. Since then, they've seen this shift to digital and podcasting and streaming, so they pulled all of their terrestrial radio, traditional radio budget and basically handed it to us and said, “Hey, navigate us into this digital world.” So podcasting and creating content is a huge focus for us right now. ROB: Got it. That makes sense because once you have the content, then the distribution mechanism can really vary with the client, vary with the strategy, vary over time, and vary with what's working. I would say amazingly, the podcast world still tends to be a little bit of a Wild West in terms of, if you're a listener, finding something you want to listen to; if you're a podcast host, finding guests; if you're a guest, finding hosts. How do you look to navigate what can be a very dispersed world, I think? JOEL: Yeah, you're totally right. It's almost like everybody you talk to has a podcast and it's like, “Hey, subscribe here, subscribe there.” I talk about this with a few of my colleagues. There's just saturation of everybody has a podcast. So now it's, how do you make it more meaningful? How do you make it more impactful? How do you think creatively on how to deliver the content? One of the nice things that we're doing with this podcast that we just helped launch for a client is they have the content, they interview these high level thought leaders, and then at the end of it, they have this roundtable, almost like kitchen table talk of dissecting what they just learned or heard about. So you get to hear from the same people over and over again. I thought it's just such a great idea of differentiating yourself in the podcast space. ROB: Got it. When you think back on this journey, Joel, of Fortress Consulting, what are some things you have learned along the way that you might do differently if you were starting over today? JOEL: I look back and I think everything, the good and the bad, are all learning lessons. So I don't know what I would do differently. I think what has helped make us successful is I've really latched onto mentorship and putting smart people in a room and trying to learn as much as I can from them. I would probably accelerate that more. One of the learning lessons for me that I've learned as our team has grown is I was always quick to hire and slow to fire, and that was a major learning lesson for me. At first it's like, “Oh hey, you want to work for us? Cool, come on, you're in” and not as focused on, do they fit our culture? Are they about our core values? Are they the right fit, not just with their skillset? Now we're pivoting that into much slower to hire. They have to fit a lot more boxes to come on board with us. And then just having a shorter leash on the flipside of that too, not to drag things out that need to be nipped in the bud sooner. ROB: How do you think about that filtering for culture? A lot of times results can be objective; culture fit can be subjective, particularly when it comes to how you do the work. How do you ask those questions up front? JOEL: I attended a conference and I was floored because they had something called their Culture Deck. It was modeled after Netflix – they have their Culture Deck, and it is like 100 pages about what they're about, what they stand by, what they believe. So we created ours, and we called it Fortress Foundations. It was eight things that we're about – seven or eight things; it's evolving. We have it up on a poster on our wall in our office. So now we're focused on hiring based on that. We actually have it on our website too. We'll have people that want to come work for us see that and say, “Hey, I'm on board with this. This is what I'm about too.” So it helps with that cultural fit when you have it documented, you have it displayed, and you proclaim that “This is what we're about. This is who we are.” You'll start to find more of those people gravitating towards you. ROB: What are some of those key things for you? JOEL: It's evolved. The number one thing is “We over me.” It's focused on what we can build together as a team. I tell people all the time, even though I'm the owner, it's not about me. It's about what we can do together as a team. We'll go further as a team than we will with me just as an individual. That seeps into how we tag-team on work together. You'll have designers jump in and help do quality assurance testing on a website, and we'll have developers give feedback on design. We'll have copywriters that sit in on a sales meeting. It's focused on teamwork. Really, when you asked about why I started and what was the push, it was really I saw how it was in corporate America, how it was just this rat race. There was no love, no loyalty, politics and all the above. Really, I strive to create a culture and team where that didn't exist. We're at a good size now where it's not an issue and we're all rowing the same way at the same speed. So “We over me” is one. Another one is “Family first,” which is something that is antithetical to what you hear at a business. But I really do firmly believe if you don't have peace and happiness in your family life and personal life, you're not going to perform at your highest when you're in the office. So if somebody has a personal issue or issue with their kid or a loved one, I'm like, “Get out of here. Go handle it and then come back when you're ready and you have your game face on.” I really do believe family is first. I expect everybody to have that balance between work life and home life. ROB: It's so valuable, and I think it really helps set apart an independent firm versus – we were talking beforehand a little bit about how people can go work for a big, big company and they can optimize their entire career around salary. That won't always happen in an independent consultancy or agency, but they can like coming to work and they can like who they work with in a way that sometimes you just can't on the enterprise side. JOEL: Right, exactly. It's interesting; I've hired two people that I used to work with in corporate. One was a manager level and one was more on the analyst side, more of the level that I was at when I was there. I joke around with them like, there's a whole reprogramming process here where you don't have to worry about somebody micromanaging you. You have authority. We'll hold you accountable, but you have authority to make decisions, and if it's the wrong decision, it's okay. We'll deal with it. But there's this whole corporate reprogramming that I joke around with our team about. This is a different way of doing business that I find the team really buys into. It fires them up, and it's just a different vibe, different mindset here. ROB: Excellent. Joel, when you think about what's coming up for Fortress or for the broader marketing world, what are you excited about? What's next? JOEL: I'm really excited about the ways that people are consuming information and consuming content. I have another company that I've started this year in the higher education space. We're all about how students are learning – and we don't even want to call them students anymore; we want to call them learners and focus on lifelong learning. You can't do the same things over and over again. As much as the pandemic is tough on people and has forced us all to think differently and shift and disrupt, it's a good thing overall. Businesses are adapting, people are adapting, people are pivoting. They're innovating. I'm excited to see what comes out of this, and I think the people that are doubling down on marketing and advertising and learning more about who they are and their customers are going to come out of this 3-4 years ahead of their competitors that went into self-preservation mode and just tried to survive it. ROB: We're certainly entering a new season as well, because a lot of the pandemic ad inventory has been aligned with the election. Now that we're post-election, for the most part – we're in Georgia; we still have a Senate runoff here – but I would imagine to an extent, there's inventory freeing up for people who are ready to double down. What have you seen? JOEL: Yeah, that is absolutely true. I spent 7 years in the media, and during political times it was overrun with political, and political got special rates, so it'd bump out other advertisers. We've got several clients that were just waiting for this election to end so they could start releasing budgets and really getting after it. But yeah, that's exactly right. There's less clutter now. I wish there was clear, definitive answers on things already, but we're heading into a season where marketers can really stand out and ad dollars are slashed. I was talking to another agency owner just yesterday about it, and he's like, “Man, all our friends in media are getting crushed. They're getting their ad budgets slashed and people are tightening up.” But that means that it's an opportunity for the advertisers that do want to be there to get great rates, to get placement that they normally wouldn't have, to have their budgets go further than ever before. ROB: Wow. That's definitely fascinating. I take your point about – two things. Number one, there's still some remnant political advertising going on. Number two, there's still some uncertainty that clients are probably not ready to fully pull the trigger on until we have tremendous clarity. I would just say when we have one person who says they're going to be the president and one person who says they're not, that's probably going to be the real comfort level for people. JOEL: Right. ROB: [laughs] Hopefully that's about as unpolitical as I can say that. I don't know. JOEL: No, you're right on. ROB: [laughs] Very good. Joel, when people want to track you down and when they want to find Fortress Consulting, how should they connect with you? JOEL: They can go to our website at gofortress.com. You'll find who we are, what we're about, some of the work that we've done, and what we do there. But yeah, the best way is to go to our website or follow us on social. We're at some combination of Fortress or Go Fortress as our screennames. But the website would be the number one place to go at gofortress.com. ROB: If people want to dig into the work you're doing in the education space, what is that? JOEL: I'm glad you asked. That's at beyondacademics.com. That's something that we're really excited about, me and our other two co-founders, about what the future of education looks like and how that industry is going to completely change in the next year to 3 years. ROB: Just on a little detour, nuts and bolts, in terms of structuring, how have you structured that venture alongside Fortress? Are they completely separate? Are they linked in any way? JOEL: They are completely separate, but the beauty of Fortress is it's almost like Beyond Academics came      meetings and our copywriters and our developers and just lay out what they need. So we're able to support Beyond Academics through Fortress, and it's just a great relationship where essentially Beyond is a customer of Fortress, and we get to see this whole thing develop from just a concept to where we're at now. ROB: Fantastic. We'll get that into the show notes. Joel, thank you for joining us. Best wishes to you and to Fortress as you finish out the year. JOEL: You as well, Rob. Thanks very much. ROB: Be well. Bye. Thank you for listening. The Marketing Agency Leadership Podcast is presented by Converge. Converge helps digital marketing agencies and brands automate their reporting so they can be more profitable, accurate, and responsive. To learn more about how Converge can automate your marketing reporting, email info@convergehq.com, or visit us on the web at convergehq.com.

In 2006, Carlos's fiancée (now his wife) was approached by a client to do SEO (Search Engine Optimization) and PPC (Pay Per Click). Carlos got into the agency in 2008 when the economy “tanked” and the funding for the startup where he worked dried up. From 2008 forward, the agency has been “tapped” on a regular basis by traditional (radio, print, TV) agencies needing digital services for their clients. Bloom works with a variety of different industries – retail, B2B, government agencies, and some non-profits. Hospitality, which is big in British Columbia, is currently challenged because of the pandemic. Over the years, the focus of needs has become more complex – from a “We need to be on FaceBook” to “We need to be on Facebook, on LinkedIn, on Twitter, on Instagram.” When asked why these traditional agencies did not develop their own digital services in-house, Carlos explained that many digital marketers who started in the mid-2000s were self-taught. They learned the craft by “reading blogs, by attending conferences, by networking with other marketers.” He says, “It takes time to build expertise and a skillset where you're able to run big-enough campaigns.” Partnerships with Bloom meet larger agencies' needs for solid, experience-based digital expertise and have given Bloom the opportunity to work with larger clients than they might otherwise have had.  Carlos gave a nod to Converge's marketing performance reports by relating that the number one complaint that he hears from clients coming from other agencies is, “We get an invoice every month, we don't know what our agency is doing, we don't know what they've been working on, we don't know what the next steps are.” Carlos notes, “You can save so much time and deliver so much better quality and end results using the proper tools.” Communication with clients is critical. Carlos commented on the problem that good digital marketing people are hard to come by and even harder to retain. He says, “Once somebody becomes skilled at running campaigns with six-digit budgets every month, they get poached.”  In this interview, Carlos discusses how Covid has changed his business and how the marketing industry has “always been on the leading edge of change.” He is looking forward to a disrupter in the digital marketing industry because there are no barriers to becoming an expert, no licensing, and the service is becoming commoditized. What that new model will look like . . . and who will do it . . . who knows? Carlos can be reached on his agency's website at bloommarketing.ca – (.ca for Canada), or on LinkedIn, Facebook, or Twitter. Transcript Follows: ROB: Welcome to the Marketing Agency Leadership Podcast. I'm your host, Rob Kischuk, and I'm joined today by Carlos Obregon, Co-founder at Bloom Marketing based in Vancouver, British Columbia. Welcome to the podcast, Carlos. CARLOS: Thank you very much, Rob. It's great to be here. ROB: I'm pleased to have you here. Why don't you start off by telling us about Bloom Marketing and what focus areas the firm excels in? CARLOS: We started Bloom Marketing back in 2006. Initially it started as a result of my then-fiancée, now wife. She was approached by a former client, and she was invited to become a contractor doing SEO, doing PPC. That was the first client. I joined the company two years later as a result of the 2008 financial problems. I was working for a startup, and at the time all their funding dried up as a result of it, so the staff was laid off. We were then expecting our first child. There is nothing to light up your entrepreneurial fire like having a mortgage and a baby arriving soon. [laughs] ROB: [laughs] Yeah. So, you started off in that SEO, pay-per-click; where has that path taken you in terms of the specialties of the firm now? What does a typical client engagement look like? CARLOS: We started our agency and organically, we started getting approached by traditional media agencies wanting to build up their digital marketing expertise because invariably – we're talking about 2008-2009. This is when they were doing radio, print, TV. They were asked by their clients, “We now need to be on Google, we need to be on Facebook, we need to rank better on organic searches.” That led to us developing several partnerships with traditional media agencies. That became our social growth. By having access to larger clients than what we would have had otherwise, we were able to nourish and develop these partnerships. That happens still today. We still maintain most of these partnerships. That has allowed us to tap clients that we probably wouldn't have access to because we don't have a radio department, we don't have a print advertising department. So more or less, that's been our path. We didn't really plan it that way, but that's how it's been working out. ROB: That's an excellent path. I've definitely seen a lot of these traditional media purveyors – they're used to selling TV ads, they're used to selling radio ads. Actually, some friends of mine were involved in a company that was acquired by Gannett, who was one of these big old school media companies. They tried to equip the sales folks to go out and sell digital, and it didn't go very well. What do you think it is in these organizations – by now they certainly could have built an in-house practice and an in-house capability. What do you think has made it hard for them to turn that corner? They really do need these partnerships. They need you. CARLOS: I think in part it's because those of us who started mid-2000s with digital marketing, we're all self-taught. There were no programs in universities or colleges for digital marketing. So, we just learned as we went by reading blogs, by attending conferences, by networking with other marketers. It takes time. It takes time to build expertise and a skillset where you're able to run big enough campaigns, where you're able to communicate with the client. That's a crucial part of the business, communication. I know you're involved in the reporting side of the tools. That's probably the number one complaint that we hear from people coming from other agencies, from past experiences. Communication. So many times we've heard, “We get an invoice every month, we don't know what our agency is doing, we don't know what they've been working on, we don't know what the next steps are.”  I think it takes time to build the marketing expertise. Once somebody becomes skilled at say running campaigns with six-digit budgets every month, they get poached. We're all trying to make a living, so understandably. ROB: Right. That training effect is challenging I think also, especially where you started out in some of that SEO and PPC world. I had some friends who ran an online marketplace for building products, essentially, and these two guys are running this $20-30 million a year business, and the founders are still doing a lot of the PPC because every time they get somebody up to speed, they get poached. CARLOS: Yeah. I've seen it over and over again. At one point I remember one of the biggest agencies here in Vancouver, a traditional agency, their entire digital marketing team was two people. They were both entry level, and here they were running gigantic companies. [laughs] ROB: Yeah. So, you had those beginnings in certain areas, and the marketing world has changed quite a bit since you started the firm. What are some of the more services you offer now? What different expertises are you working with clients on? You mentioned where the clients are coming from; what does a typical client look like?  CARLOS: We're actually involved in several different industries. Hospitality is pretty big here in British Columbia. At the moment it's going through challenges because of the pandemic. We're also involved in retail, B2B, and we have also done some nonprofits as well as government agencies. One key difference now is before, we would be approached and they'd say, “I need to do SEO because I need better rankings.” What I think now is the needs of the customers encompass more. Right now we get approached and they say, “I need to be on Facebook, I need to be on Instagram, I need to be on Google, Microsoft ads, on LinkedIn, on Twitter.” There's a lot more of a whole vision of what the needs are and all these different channels the business needs to be visible on. I think that would be the main change. More than one channel, now it's multichannel. ROB: When someone comes to you and they want to order everything on the menu, how do you help them in that decision process? They still have to choose where they're going to allocate more of their effort and budget, and also maybe some channels aren't quite appropriate for them. How do you think about that guidance?  CARLOS: Again, we go back to the communication. We have an onboarding process where we meet with the prospective client or client and first we try to understand, what are the goals? Usually you get an answer like, “I want more business.” Well, yeah, but what does that look like? Do you mean more subscribers initially? Do you want more people signing up for a trial?  Do you want more people ordering a sample? Do you want to get appointments? Do you want to get viewings for real estate? When we start narrowing down the goal, we say, “You're a business-to-business company, so perhaps Facebook is not the ideal channel if you're selling industrial equipment. Why don't we explore LinkedIn first, where you can target people based on which companies they work for and their job titles?” For the most part, it's a back and forth. We agree on what the goals are, we agree on how we're going to measure, what kind of timelines we have – because as you know, some products have a really long sell cycle, so it makes it tricky to measure sometimes. But again, it goes back to making sure you align and you understand what the client wants and they understand what you can deliver and how long it will be. That would be more or less how we approach it. ROB: That certainly makes sense. On this journey, you already gave us a little bit of a picture of the origin of the firm and how it sounded like your wife started the firm and then a couple years later she let you into the business. CARLOS: [laughs] Pretty much. ROB: How many people were on the team? Were you Employee #2, or were there some other people that had come in between the two events? CARLOS: We had contractors from the start. I was not Employee #2 per se. I was “Person on the Payroll #2.” Up until today, we continue to work mostly with freelancers and contractors who are part of our team, but they're not under contract. They're not just working for us. So I was #2 on the payroll but not necessarily #2 in the company. ROB: That's an interesting thing. I'm going to pull on that a little bit. When you talk about contractors, what percent of your team would you say is full time versus contract? CARLOS: I would say full time is about 40% and contract about 60%. ROB: That's a strategic choice, right? I know people who say that their target is 30% contract, but at the end of the day they can't help themselves and they end up being much more towards 100% of it being full time, or maybe 10% on contract. How have you reached that decision strategically? What led you there? CARLOS: We didn't really choose it; it just kind of happened. People we found that were really good at what they do usually wouldn't want to commit to working full time for any one firm. I think it comes down to quality and reliability. The contractors we work with, we know they're never going to come and work exclusively for us just because they've achieved a certain level of success and they want flexibility. They want to be able to turn down work occasionally. So it just happened that way. Now, looking back, I think it was a good thing that we learned how to work with contractors early on and how we maintained those relationships, given the changes that we're undergoing right now. A lot of people are working remotely. Those who already have practice in working remotely, it was an easier transition. Some other ones were more abrupt. But I feel like the days of huge agencies and huge offices are probably behind us. ROB: Is your team in any office right now or is everybody completely remote still? CARLOS: We're a hybrid. We do have an office, and I go about three times a week or so. But we have contractors who live 2,000 miles away from here, just as an example. We're never going to have them in the office, and that's fine. ROB: In that sort of environment, how are you thinking about people knowing each other, working together, team-building? What do you think that looks like right now, number one, and then number two – suppose we're in full regathering and getting together mode, but you're still distributed. How are you thinking about team? CARLOS: I'm a really social guy. I miss being able to hang out with groups of people. I really, really miss it. In some instances it's possible to have most of our team in any one place, especially at certain times of the year or if there is something happening in Vancouver like a big conference or some reason for everyone to be together. But I think moving forward, we're going to have to do a hybrid where those of us who are close by might be able to meet up and be physically in the same boardroom, but I think from now on we're always going to have people remote conferencing. ROB: It's definitely something I've been trying to sort my way through. Before, we had an office. I liked having an office. I wanted people who wanted to be in an office. And then I just kind of changed my mind. In February, we made a hire who's an American, but in Santiago, Chile. We just hired someone in Sacramento. We're looking at people in Chicago and Tucson, Arizona. I'm thinking a lot about how we get together, whether we have some sort of annual team event or what it looks like. I don't quite know yet. So I'm asking a little bit for myself as well. CARLOS: Yeah, we're definitely in – none of us were planning for this to happen, for these drastic changes. Who knows? Perhaps next year we'll be somewhat back to some normal, but I think especially in our industry, we're always at the leading edge of change. Things were changing rapidly in our industry to begin with, and now with the work from home revolution, perhaps we're going to have team members that we never meet in person. But I don't know if it happens to you – to me, I have people that I work with remotely and have for years, and even though I don't see them physically very often, I feel like I know them really well. It's like we're buddies. So, I don't think we're giving up that much by not meeting everyone in person frequently. ROB: Really interesting. It's good to have thoughts on that. It's good to talk to each other about that. Carlos, as you reflect on the path of the business so far, what are some lessons you have learned along the way that, if you were starting over today, you might do things a little bit differently? CARLOS: Definitely. You know what the number one is? ROB: What's that? CARLOS: I wouldn't accept every client that comes through the door. I learned that initially because I started working in the firm in 2008, and there was a lot of uncertainty. Huge banks were going under. Huge insurance companies were going under. Everybody was kind of in panic mode. So, I started getting customers and I would say yes to everything and everyone because I didn't know when the next one was going to be. I had bills to pay, I had a mortgage, I had a kid on the way. Looking back, I could've been pickier because with some of those projects, I had no alignment. I didn't really connect with the client. Perhaps I didn't understand their goals, they didn't understand me and how I wanted to deliver. Although we never really had any frictions or difficult breakups with clients, there were a lot of projects that I did not enjoy. We're in a free market and we obviously need to make a living and grow and prosper, but we also need to enjoy what we do as much as possible. So that would be my number one learning. Don't accept every gig. I put it down on paper here in front of me for our chat today. That would be my key takeaway. ROB: It's draining on your energy, those things that you take on that maybe don't align. There comes a point – and you probably have realized this at different times – there comes times when you're at capacity and you end up almost having to say no to something you'd rather do, or at least scramble to figure out how you're going to do it. It can be hard to keep the quality level high when you're scrambling for a solution. CARLOS: That, and obviously the contracts and the projects that you enjoy, we all do better. We're more creative. We come up with better ideas on projects we enjoy rather than something like, “I don't even know how to sell this product. What does the end customer want? Do I really want to be promoting this? I don't believe in this product or this service.” So yeah, definitely a learning. ROB: I think we all need reminders of this. It's so easy to get off track so quickly, and then you get into the mode where you're just handling the decision that you've made. Are there any tools you have found that have helped you think ahead and think about working on the business? Because you have a lot going on and a lot of people involved. CARLOS: Yeah. I love finding new tools and experimenting, whether it be marketing automation, reporting, or analytics. You're an expert in this industry. You can save so much time and deliver so much better quality and end results using the proper tools. Now, as you're fully aware, it's a highly competitive industry. There are so many new tools. It's hard to keep on top of it. You have to do a lot of reading, which I happen to enjoy. But we definitely love using and finding and testing new tools. I remember when I first started working in-house, running a huge technical company, I was doing the SEO for this company, for this startup here in Vancouver. It was comparison shopping. I was doing the SEO, and from one day to the next, the person who was running the Google Ads left. The CEO approached me and said, “Can you take care of this, at least on an intern basis, while we find somebody else?” I was like, “Okay, yeah, sure.” It was a six-digit budget in Google Ads. And this was in 2005. The days of Google Ads Editor were not around yet. [laughs] We had to download all the data to spreadsheets. The campaigns were so gigantic – we were bidding on over 100,000 keywords at the time – that Excel kept crashing. Whenever we tried to do any analysis of bids and conversions, it would always freeze up. Thinking back, if I had the tools we have now back in the day, oh my God, I would've done a full day of work in one hour. ROB: [laughs] Wow. If only you could travel back in time with tools, you could take over the world. One thing I think that's interesting that you have uncovered in your story – we've had guests before whose spouse is involved in the business, but they were very vague. They wouldn't really admit it on the audio. It's really interesting that you brought it to the forefront. What have you found makes it work well to work on a business, on an entrepreneurial venture, with your spouse? CARLOS: We can go back even further than that. I'll give you a little bit of background. I actually met my now wife at a marketing conference here in Vancouver. She was working for an agency at the time; I was working as in-house SEO at another company. So, we met, and that's how it started. We actually met because of digital marketing. Then we got engaged, and that's when she started working freelance. Then I joined in 2008. It's been 14 years and we're still happily married. I can't deny that there have been difficult times where we don't agree and I want to do things one way and she wants to do things different or vice versa, but for the most part I think we complement each other really well. There are areas of the business – a lot of guys will agree with this – I don't get involved in the finance. She's the treasurer. [laughs] I like to socialize and meet people. I do a lot of the business development. It's something that she doesn't enjoy. We've made it work that way. I keep my hands off the money and the checkbook, and then whenever she gets a new lead or someone that needs more information, I usually do the communication. We've made it work. Just for mental health, we work with different clients. She looks after some clients, I look after different clients. Occasionally we work on the same project, but we keep some things separate. ROB: That sounds like a good tip in general. That's good for division of work, I think, in any company. You want people who work on some clients and not others. You want some people to work in their area of strength in finance, and others in business development. We do that, but I think there can be maybe this pull as co-owners to have your hand in a little bit of everything. It sounds like being able to split that up a little bit has served you well just to not be all in each other's business literally every day. CARLOS: Yeah. When we're at home, we have a rule of no business discussion. We talk about the kids, we talk about dinner, and we talk about vacations. We try to stay away from work because otherwise you end up working 16 hours a day, one way or another. ROB: That makes sense. Carlos, when you look ahead at what's coming up in the marketing world, what's coming up for Bloom Marketing, what are you excited about? CARLOS: I think the digital marketing agency world is ripe for disruption. I don't know who's going to do it, but if you recall, real estate was revolutionized by Re/Max. They completely put the business model on its head by giving realtors a lot more control of their commissions and how they split costs. I think this industry is ripe for disruption somewhere along those lines where perhaps rather than having an owner, a founder, and account managers and strategists and business development, I wonder if it could be pooling a partnership of frontend developers, backend developers, usability experts, web designers, SEO experts, PPC experts, and put them all in one company, split the costs, and somehow share revenue. I don't know what that would look like, but I'm hoping there's disruption because we're becoming commoditized. Every week I run a search on Google for “digital marketing agency Vancouver,” and every week I see new names coming up. There is no barrier of entry in this industry. You just put up your website and you say, “Okay, I'm a digital marketing expert,” and you are. It's unregulated. It's not like you have a license. ROB: Huh. That's interesting. It's interesting to think about the different ways that we get clients and the different ways that realtors get clients. The real estate industry is set up to equip the realtor to focus on a few things and other people in the process – different people are – let's say most real estate firms, for instance, don't have handypeople on staff to fix up the house before listing it. They just don't. It's all parceled out. CARLOS: Yes. ROB: So, it's interesting. What's possible, what's not possible? I wonder, what are the next couple steps that would prove that to be more possible and more true? CARLOS: I'm sure there's going to be a better way of creating a digital marketing agency business model, different than what we have right now. But if you come up with it, remember me. Call me, okay? [laughs] ROB: [laughs] Yeah. One thing I have seen – I'll share this; it's been a little while since we talked about it on the podcast, but it's come up a couple of times here and there. There is one firm that we've spoken with that was a co-op. They were structured as a co-op, where they were owned by their employees, and when the employees left, they gave up their ownership in the company. Soze was the agency there, out of Brooklyn. It sounds like a very Brooklyn kind of thing. But I just swapped emails with Michael Skolnik, who's their – I don't know what you say – he's the founder, I guess, but I don't know what his official title is within that mix since everybody owns the business. But he's going to look at open sourcing the local documents once they've got all that ready. I've got him on commitment to check in with in the new year. That may not be exactly where things go, but it is an interesting model because it does feel strange. I guess as a founder, you take the risk. Some people would look at it and say, “Fine, you take the risk, you get the reward.” But there's other times, I think, where you have a business that's doing well, but its service is revenue, so there's only so much of it you're going to reinvest in the business. And when it's going well, maybe it feels like it flows a little bit too much to the owners. CARLOS: Yeah. You're saying the co-op models – yeah, that's one way. I'm sure some smart guy will come up with a really good business model for the 21st century. ROB: [laughs] Perfect. We'll keep our eyes out and we'll keep talking about that here. Carlos, when people want to find you and when they want to connect with Bloom Marketing, where should they look to connect? CARLOS: Our website is bloommarketing.ca – .ca because we're in Canada I'm also active on LinkedIn, Facebook, Twitter. That'll be the easiest way to find us. ROB: Excellent. Carlos, thank you for coming on the podcast. Best wishes to you and to Bloom Marketing going forward. CARLOS: Thank you. All the best, and thank you very much for the invite. ROB: Thank you. Be well. CARLOS: Thanks. Bye. ROB: Thank you for listening. The Marketing Agency Leadership Podcast is presented by Converge. Converge helps digital marketing agencies and brands automate their reporting so they can be more profitable, accurate, and responsive. To learn more about how Converge can automate your marketing reporting, email info@convergehq.com, or visit us on the web at convergehq.com.

In 2009, Yoel Israel, founder at WadiDigital, Israel's leading full service digital agency, was pursuing his MBA at Bar-Ilan University in Tel Aviv, Israel. A friend sat down with him for a cup of coffee and said, “Dude, you've got to get on Twitter.” Yoel fell in love with it, set his university up on Twitter (which brought in some international students), and got a scholarship for the effort He graduated and returned to his job at Xerox in his hometown – Philadelphia – and ran a social media management side gig (Facebook and Twitter) for small businesses. When he discovered the Facebook dashboard, this finance major found that he not only got to look at data . . . he could manipulate it. He was hooked. He learned Google Ads, started his own company, and moved back to Israel where English is the “B2B tech language. When LinkedIn rolled out lead generation in 2017, the agency took off – a “first mover advantage” payoff. Yoel explains: LinkedIn ads may be expensive, but they are powerful because of the discrete targeting capability the platform provides. Today, WadiDigital focuses on LinkedIn advertising, SEO, and lead generation for B2B technology startups, who, most likely, have already gone through Round A, Round B funding. After 3 customers asked for cybersecurity marketing and cybersecurity influencer marketing. WadiDigital decided to build a platform. Currently, a dozen cybersecurity companies are using an affiliate cybersecurity influencer distribution platform where influencer affiliates “can manage and track their own clicks.” WadiDigital's new platform launches in January and will consist of two parts: Cybersecurity clients and other cybersecurity companies can share and distribute blogs and non-gated content. Influencer CISOs (Chief Information Security Officers) can retrieve these links, share them, and get compensated based on clicks. WadiDigital cohosts and curates webinars where cybersecurity company experts present content for different groups of influencers. Cybersecurity companies get to showcase their expertise. Well-vetted cybersecurity influencers (who get up-to-date information at a fraction of the cost of what they would pay Gartner or SANS), can post the information and get paid. Yoel says, ” We bring them good content and they get compensated for it.” In this interview, Yoel discusses some of the security risks individuals and companies take, when to hire and the questions to ask when you hire, and the importance of processes in keeping things going. Yoel recommends that people follow him on WadiDigital.com, Yoel Israel on LinkedIn, (send a connection request and tell him you heard him on the podcast), and eventually cyfluencer.com, the distribution platform (again, January launch). The company will soon be hosting a cyber intelligence magazine: Cyber Intel Mag, details on all the “new stuff” to follow on LinkedIn and the agency website.  ROB: Welcome to the Marketing Agency Leadership Podcast. I'm your host, Rob Kischuk, and I'm excited to be joined today by Yoel Israel, founder at WadiDigital based in Israel. Welcome to the podcast, Yoel. YOEL: Thanks, Rob. Thanks for having me. ROB: Why don't you start off by running down for us what WadiDigital is excellent in?  YOEL: Actually, our focus is LinkedIn advertising and SEO. We're very focused on lead generation, and all of our clients are B2B technology startups. They usually have at least Round A, Round B funding. A large majority of them are cybersecurity, especially because we're in Israel. It's like the cybersecurity hub of the world. So, we do a lot with cybersecurity there. We also now do cybersecurity influencer marketing. We have a cybersecurity influencer distribution platform that we're still building, and we're currently using but we're building a new one right now. We do a lot of influencer marketing in the cyber space. So, we do a lot, but our focus is B2B LinkedIn, SEO, lead gen, and influencer marketing for cybersecurity. ROB: That's probably an underappreciated and unknown aspect of Israel for people who don't know. In the technology space you get a flavor for that deep security knowledge and that expertise in the venture funded companies in Israel, but a lot of people may not necessarily make that association, so I'm glad we get to dig into that a little bit. I want to pull on the thread a little bit – when you mentioned cybersecurity influencers, that's interesting. I'm sure it looks a little bit different than what people may commonly think of as influencer marketing. What does influencer marketing look like in cybersecurity? YOEL: We have two parts. How we got into it was a few years ago, a cybersecurity client of ours asked us if we do cybersecurity marketing. We just said no. Then two months later, a different cyber client asked us the same question. We looked around online like, “All right, let's help them,” and we didn't find anything. There's nothing really for B2B for influencer marketing, and if there was one, it was more like an Upwork where they come in and make the connection and there's nothing special about it. It's definitely not cybersecurity focused. When a third client asked us, we decided to build it. So, the influencer marketing, right now we're actually developing our own that will be ready in January. We spent over $60,000 on it. It's going to be epic. But what we're doing right now is using an affiliate network to manage and track clicks, where basically every affiliate, which is influencers, can log in and have their own unique tracking. We have about a dozen cybersecurity companies on our platform. There are two parts to our influencer distribution platform. One is where our cybersecurity clients and other cybersecurity companies want to share and distribute their blogs and their non-gated content, and then influencer CISOs and such, mostly in America, get to go grab these links, share it, and they get compensated based on the clicks. That's one. The second part that we're doing is now we're offering, within our pool of dozens of cybersecurity influencers, some of them are writers and they're real experts within their space, within cybersecurity, so we're not just writing content, but we're also co-hosting webinars. If you were to do a webinar with SANS or Gartner, it might cost you 15 grand. However, there's no reason to do it twice because they send it to the same audience. What we do is set up our cybersecurity clients with different influencers every single time, and those influencers promote their content in the webinar. They each bring a different and important audience to each webinar, not to mention it's a fraction of the price if they were to pay SANS or Gartner. ROB: Got it. In one case you're providing them a platform to showcase expertise alongside people they'd want to be appearing alongside, and on the other side it sounds almost like you are helping the influencer solve a problem. It's often not really the case in influencer marketing. The problem you're helping them solve is they want money. But in this case, it sounds like part of the problem somebody who would be sharing one of these links would have is actually that they want to talk about the industry. They want a source of good, credible content, and you're able to connect content with people who want to share good content. YOEL: That's correct. We're curating. These people are already sharing and engaging with excellent cybersecurity content that they're sharing, but now in addition to what they're sharing, we're curating that content from about a dozen companies, and more are joining, that are able to then go and grab your content, and they can share it. It's really fantastic that we make it so easy for the influencers. We bring them good content and they get compensated for it. ROB: That's a really interesting model I haven't heard very much about before. YOEL: That's why we had to make it. ROB: [laughs] That's why you had to build it. Especially considering, from a product perspective, how do you think about elevating towards quality? Because that is one of the problems in the affiliate and link sharing world; it kind of has a bad reputation. How do you evaluate that experience? YOEL: We don't let anyone who wants to come and share links. We review anyone that wants to share a link. We go to their profile, we see all of their posts, make sure the overwhelming majority of their posts are cybersecurity related. We look at their engagement, their follower count, their work experience. So, you have to apply to be an influencer and we manually choose who can and cannot be influencers. That's how we get rid of the junk, and then the companies, especially when our platform will be ready in January, get to choose what companies they want influencers from, if they only want to pay for clicks from what countries. So even though you might have gotten clicks hypothetically from Pakistan, you don't want to pay for those, so we're not going to charge them and we're not going to pay out our influencers that way either. We have a lot of control over it. It's not just like “set it up and do whatever you want.” Especially the cybersecurity audience, they're very conservative. They're professionals. They do things by the book. By definition, they kind of need to. That's just how they are and who they are, so we need to make sure everything is very clean and kosher. ROB: Excellent. I love the clean and kosher. Yoel, if we rewind this business a little bit, how did WadiDigital come into existence? What led you to start the business and how did you arrive at that point? YOEL: It was weird. In 2009 I was getting my MBA at Bar-Ilan University here in Tel Aviv in Israel, and I met with a friend of mine who's a huge tech influencer in Israel. I wasn't friends with him at the moment; it was in 2009, and he took me out for some coffee and he goes, “Dude, you've got to get on Twitter.” I'm like, “What's Twitter?” This is 2009, right? I really got into it and I loved it. It was a real intro to social media. I'd been on Facebook a little bit, especially from college for my undergrad when that was up and coming. But I got on and I set up my university on Twitter and they were able to get some international students. They actually gave me a scholarship, so I knew I was good at something here.  I went back to Philly, where I'm originally from, and went back to work for Xerox. On the side I was doing social media management organically on Facebook and Twitter for small businesses. Then I had a client ask me to take out ads on Facebook, and then I saw the whole dashboard and I kind of fell in love. Originally, I have a finance background, so I do love numbers and I love looking at tables of data. But once I understood that I could actually manipulate that data, I knew this was what I wanted to do for a living. Then I got trained up in Google Ads from a friend of mine and then started my own business and started selling Google Ads. I moved back to Israel after two and a half years in Philly. That was 7 years ago, and then naturally, because everything here in English is B2B tech, I started getting more into B2B and Google Ads and then getting all-in on LinkedIn ads, and we grew from there. Once LinkedIn rolled out lead generation forms on April 1st, 2017, we went all-in and we skyrocketed, bringing in enterprise leads and business because we were first mover advantage. ROB: That's a good wave to catch. For a while, a long time, you would hear that LinkedIn ads were expensive and that's all you would really hear about them. Then I think there started to be a transition at some point – I don't know whether it was an evolution of the platform or in strategy, but you started to hear instead that LinkedIn ads were expensive but effective. What do you think fed that transition, and what was your experience in that? YOEL: It's definitely expensive relative to other platforms, but it's totally worth the money. You can target whomever you want professionally on LinkedIn. You can't do that on any other platform. It's extremely powerful. ROB: Talk more about that target. What's that look like in practice to be really effective? YOEL: In practice, if I want to target CISOs (Chief Information Security Officers) at Fortune 500 companies only within the United States and who have just switched jobs in the last 90 days so they might be looking for new security opportunities for them to secure their companies, we can do that targeting. ROB: Got it. Does it line up a little bit with that enterprise hunting, account-based marketing mindset? YOEL: You could also do account-based marketing. You can upload a list of companies that you directly want to target and do that too. But then they also have different target options that you can choose, like the industry and the company size within that industry that you want to target. There's a lot of different ways – not just choosing what companies, but there's all kinds of different ways that you can target by company and you can target by the individual based on their experience. ROB: Got it. To justify the expense, do you look more at something that's in a lead capture mode? Is there any place for just pure brand and awareness marketing in LinkedIn? YOEL: Oh yeah, for sure. If you're a startup or you're a disruptor, people don't know that you're solving an issue that they don't know they have. They're not searching for that solution. Therefore, you can't use Google, but you can put in front of them the solution that you provide. So, awareness is fantastic. Video is very good. It's not necessarily good for lead generation but creating awareness videos and then remarketing people that viewed 50% or 75% of the video and then hit them up with a lead capture, you'll do very well. ROB: Wow, that's an interesting direction to take things. You started this and you got this thing moving; at what point did you realize that you were going to have to grow the team and this was really going to have to be something bigger than yourself? YOEL: When I stopped getting enough sleep. [laughs] I was working wire to wire, and then you get this really hot client. It was like, “Ugh, I'm totally full with time. I shouldn't take them,” but it was someone you really wanted. You're like, “Okay, now I need to hire.” That's how it happened. ROB: Got it. So, you just basically got to full capacity and then you said, “Well, I've got to do something that is beyond me.” YOEL: Right. ROB: Are you still in that sort of mode, or have you shifted in terms of capacity planning and hiring to some different metrics? Or do you still think about getting a little bit too busy? YOEL: I always try to make sure we're stretching before I do my hires. We're already 11 people full time, and I just signed last Thursday night a huge senior, the only other person that's worth – let's say it's someone else in Israel that's got perfect English, has LinkedIn ads, Google Ads experience, worked in an agency, built a team. So, I just made a big hire, a very expensive hire, who will be starting in January. I'm continuing to grow and I'm all-in, and I'm putting up a few more job postings now. To really build up a perfect team obviously will cost us a lot of money in the short term, but I think the medium and long term will be happy. But in general, as a rule of thumb for others that have agencies, do as much as you can, learn as much as you can, save up as much as you can, work wire to wire until you absolutely need to hire. Then hire. Too many people try to apply the 4-hour workweek before – the whole point of the 4-hour workweek is to escape the wire-to-wire working. First, you've got to build the business, build the revenue, and get all that. Then you can learn how to step back. Don't step back and start outsourcing things until you're really working like crazy. ROB: I know I've certainly had that experience of hiring for the business I wish I had instead of what's right in front of me. Have you had any either fractional or full-time hires that you've learned you may have made prematurely and had to pull back from it? YOEL: I used to say I hire on personality and then I learned that's not nearly as important. I think having a good work ethic is more important than anything. That's what I really learned. You need people to have a good work ethic. If they have a good work ethic, they're competent, and they really care about the quality of their work, I think that's the number one most important thing. ROB: How do you think about screening for a good work ethic and evaluating that before someone's on board? YOEL: Make sure they have a full year of working somewhere. If you're in marketing, digital marketing, maybe a 1 year of white collar, making sure that they haven't been fired, and calling the references – were they on time? I really think speaking to the references and making sure they actually have some full-time employment. You should be able to get it from the references. Make sure to ask difficult questions to the references. A lot of people try to be nice to references because they're being kind with their time, but that's really the way to know. ROB: Not only that, but people will often give you the good references. It's hard to get to sometimes the references you really need to understand the full picture of the person. YOEL: Right, but you need to ask the hard questions. You've got to pivot it and do it like this. Let's say Peter. “Is Peter more of an introvert or an extrovert? Does Peter excel better working alone or excel better working on a team?” Don't say “Has Peter ever been late?” They'll say no. You frame it as, “How many times a month has Peter been late?” Then you hear if they think or not. You get an idea. So when you frame it that way, you get a better idea. It's how you frame the question, you'll be able to get an honest answer. Also, ideally, when you do these reference calls, if you can schedule a video call because then you can see their reaction. If you can avoid the telephone and do a video call, which everyone now knows how to do because of the pandemic, you'll be better off. ROB: That's definitely an opportunity I've seen in this time. People are much less weirded out by a video call because we're all used to it. If you had told someone you wanted to do your first screen on a video call two years ago, I don't know if you would've had the level of adoption that I'm seeing with candidates now. YOEL: Right. It's a hiring market. Employers have a lot of leverage in a difficult economy. If someone asks for a video interview, I couldn't imagine anyone saying no. If you really want to weed people out, find out those that aren't willing to do a video interview. ROB: People find a lot of ways to weed themselves out. It constantly surprises me. Someone will spend the time on a video call, but then they won't follow up timely on the next step you ask them to do. It's a real tell. YOEL: It is, yeah. For those looking for employment, just a little tip: don't forget to send a thank you email after the interview. ROB: Man, it's such a way to stand out. YOEL: It's sad. I studied finance and they taught us a lot about business. We used to send handwritten letters. I'm not that old, man. I'm turning 35 next month. [laughs] I don't write in cursive and all that, but there's something to it. You want to stand out, you send a handwritten letter. You'll get that job. ROB: I think it's also interesting to recognize that one of the ways that I think you're really able to make those good premium hires you're talking about is in your choice of market. You're not talking to somebody who's selling a widget for $5 bucks a month. The cybersecurity market – the threats continue to grow. There's a lot of money on the line. What are you seeing when it comes to categories of cybersecurity that's emerging, trending? What should people be scared of that they don't know about yet? YOEL: Don't worry, all our clients are B2B. We're not selling VPNs like B2C to end users or anything like that. But everything and anything can be hacked. If you really want to be scared, to be honest, under no circumstances should you have TikTok or WeChat on your phone. They're stealing your texts. Anything you copy in your clipboard, even when you're not using the app, it's sending it to the Communist Chinese Party. That's the simplest and easiest thing you can do. I could really scare you, but I'm not going to do that. You wanted an easy answer. [laughs] ROB: I wonder if maybe there's a novel category of solution that you've worked with, a client you've worked with that people wouldn't even realize was a problem or a solution. YOEL: I don't use Zoom. Most people do, but we use Google Meet because Zoom is hosted in China, so it's not secure. And most of our clients are cybersecurity. A few of our clients don't care; most of them do. There's a lot. You have no idea. People know everything about you. They've watched you do everything on your phone through your camera, heard every conversation. They're recording everything. Everything you think Google's recording, which it's doing legally and with your permission, imagine what foreign governments are doing and getting information on you. I don't think anyone can run for office in a free country in the future with foreign adversaries knowing everything about you. ROB: Right, or they can and then it becomes a security risk. YOEL: Right. You can see that right now. ROB: Exposing the information is actually – you do that, you can never use it again. But if you hold it over someone's head, you can influence them for a long period of time. YOEL: Correct. That's what's happening right now maybe in America with Hunter Biden, with everything that he has on him and on Biden. It's a little worrying. But we'll see. ROB: You really do have to wonder. I hadn't thought about it too much. If someone has the dirt on you –  YOEL: People don't think about it. And they have the dirt on you. That's the thing. They have it on me. They have it on you. ROB: So turning over the dirt is the nuclear option. YOEL: You don't turn it over. It's taken from you. ROB: Yeah. But them releasing the information is the last play. There's a lot in between. It's really interesting. Some interesting trends I have seen in this world – I don't know what you've seen here – is an increase – we have one client who is moving to virtualized desktops. It was an S&P 500 company and they got ransomwared, and they're just over it. So they are deploying – all of their developers are going to be developing on virtual Windows boxes, I think on Amazon's cloud. Virtual desktops. YOEL: Yep, not surprising. You hear a lot more than that. I give examples of what people can do as individuals, but my clients are B2B, so it's more like how they present a ransomware, patching solutions, things like that. Having different keys in order to access different information, using cryptocurrency and things like that. All kinds of different technologies in order to be able to prevent different kinds of penetration for IT and OT and industrial and ICS. It's amazing. Think about it; if they take down the energy supply, you're screwed. You have no food. Nothing gets to you. They can't even pump the water that comes out of your faucet. Everyone's out in the street killing each other. ROB: We got a scary sneak preview. I don't know what the immediate COVID-lockdown experience was for you, but you realize how overoptimized and how fragile our supply chain is. What was your experience? YOEL: Yep, yep, yep. A lot. ROB: What could you not get and what can you still not get? YOEL: I have a couple old B2C clients from back in the day back in the States, and they're ecommerce. Ecommerce was through the roof when people couldn't go to the store. I was like, “Yo, we've got to up our budgets. This is amazing. Our ROI is like 5x the previous month. This will only last as long as the pandemic or until things open up.” He goes, “I can't. My supply chain is screwed.” We had to cut budgets, and it was time to rake it in. He couldn't supply. We had to go through and start removing products on their website. They sell beads for arts and crafts, high end beads and all that, like African beads. Just to get an idea. And that's not even important stuff. Then you talk about all of your medication and all that. I know we're totally off topic, but that's fine. All of your medication ingredients that go into medication and all of your technology and everything is made overseas, not to mention your master PPE equipment and everything. Nothing was made here at the time. Big changes have been made in the last 6 months, thankfully, for America to be able to centralize and other countries to start bringing their manufacturing back home. It's become a national security risk. ROB: Yeah. I was going to say, that's a good security story as well. We talked a little bit about some things you'd learned along the way. What are some other lessons you have learned from building WadiDigital that you might do a little bit differently if you were starting from scratch? YOEL: Starting from scratch? It's such a simple question but I never thought of it that way. I would've maybe hired a little bit earlier. I would have taken processes more seriously. I never worked at another agency, so I would've hired a consultant that worked at another agency to give me some tips on how to do and build things, processes, streamline, and save time. Oh, another thing I did, if you own an agency: get a personal assistant. I learned between me and let's say one junior when it was just the two of us, only one person working under me, all my time was client-facing, and then I would assign tasks on Monday.com and she would do them. But then my other time went a lot of times to stuff in my personal life. So you can hire someone pretty cheap either locally, in my case – I hired someone on my block – or you can hire someone virtually to do a lot of the stuff you need to do in your personal life. I freed up almost an hour and a half of my time a day. That's three client calls a day. That's a lot more work and business that I can take on. I only started that a couple months ago. After I got used to the personal assistant, I was like, “Why didn't I do this years ago?” ROB: [laughs] Right. What I have found is you start off thinking of a few things you could delegate and hand off, and then you just keep on realizing things you can hand off. There's a freedom that starts to come when you start to think about the additional things you can take off your plate instead of having the mindset that you have to do it. YOEL: It's a shift. It doesn't make any sense to people that don't. Once you start delegating and handing things off, your life changes. ROB: I think to some people it sounds very indulgent. It sounds like one of those first world problems of whether or not you have an assistant. But when you're trying to build a first class business, it's hard to imagine how you can go without it. After a time. Maybe not when it's just you. YOEL: But it's not even that. I know a lot of people, they're employees themselves, but they hire some help at home to help with the kids and dishes and cleaning and things like that, and it makes a huge difference. Then they can stay later at work, maybe earn more. And these aren't people building a business; they're employees. They just need some help so they can mentally recharge, so they're not up all night cleaning up after the house and the kids or whatever or helping with tutoring with children. In a sense, it's all a personal assistant in a way. ROB: Right, especially now, probably, to have someone who is in your inner circle, who you know and trust their habits. In the middle of the pandemic, I'm not scared, but I am careful. The list of people I'm going to call to babysit my kids has gotten a lot shorter right now because I want to know how you're living your life. YOEL: Yeah, I feel you, man. My wife and I went through the same thing. There's less babysitting. ROB: For sure. You mentioned processes. I think a lot of us, especially the creative class, “I'm going to go start a business,” bucks at the idea of structure and process. It almost feels like rules, but it's also kind of like having a bionic exoskeleton sometimes that can help you be a lot stronger than you would be on your own. What was it that helped you realize – was there a particular process that you realized needed to be tightened up or some experience that made you turn the corner on processes? YOEL: I found out that one of my competitors had some processes that I wasn't doing, and then I really looked into it and I figured out, “I need to get it together.” [laughs] I went all-in on these processes. I started making processes and spreadsheets, processes in Monday.com, processes on what I do before and after a call and everything. It's almost automatic. I don't think about it. It's become a habit, and everything's documented, and no work ever gets forgotten or unchecked by doing things a certain way. Processes are important. But you don't notice you need it until you either hear complaints from a client or you find out what other people are doing in the industry and you're like, “Oh, I should be doing that. Why aren't I doing that?” Which is why I recommended earlier to bring in a consultant, because you don't know what you don't know. ROB: Right. Those experiences beyond yourself, certainly. YOEL: Correct. Especially because I haven't worked at an agency, so I haven't really learned how to do that. I don't have that experience of “Here's how we do things, here's how we do training, here's how we do keyword research,” and the processes of hiring. You need other help sometimes to see things differently if you don't have that experience. ROB: We've had a couple of those sorts of folks on. There's a couple of gentlemen, David C. Baker and Blair Enns, who co-host the 2 Bobs podcast. They've both been on here, and they are both consultants to agencies that just have that longitudinal visibility. Even right now, if you want to say, “Hey, what are people doing? How are people's bookings? What categories are hot, what categories are not hot? What are people doing about office space?”, these are all things where you need some perspective. YOEL: Right. But get more specific. I don't follow what people do; I try to do the exact opposite of what everyone does. But when it comes to processes, you need to get specific. Don't follow the crowd per se, unless you want to enter a rat race, but sometimes you're straight-up missing the obvious, which you don't even know. ROB: Very solid. Yoel, when you think of what's ahead for WadiDigital and marketing and maybe cybersecurity, what are you excited about that's coming up? YOEL: We're trying to transition from a cybersecurity marketing agency to a cybersecurity marketing and media agency, so in addition to influencer marketing and doing those things, we're building some reading resources, websites, cybersecurity news websites, cybersecurity TV show. We're trying to do – that's for a few years from now. We're really trying to make the destination for everything cybersecurity marketing and media so if you're in cybersecurity, you're a fool not to work with us. ROB: Where's that going to live? Do we have a future parking spot domain for that, or some digital properties? Or just follow WadiDigital? YOEL: You can follow WadiDigital on LinkedIn, but right now, cyfluencer.com. “Cy” like cyber. That's our distribution platform. That's going to be launched January. There's a LinkedIn page we literally just made, and then Cyber Intel Mag is going to be where we do our cyber news and all of that. It's a cyber intelligence magazine. And then there's some other things I can't really share just yet. Just follow me or WadiDigital on LinkedIn to learn more. ROB: Got it. Is it WadiDigital.com? Where do we go to find you? We can find you on LinkedIn. YOEL: Yep, wadidigital.com, but the best is search “Yoel Israel” in LinkedIn. Send me a connection request, tell me you heard me from here, and I look forward to following and engaging. I'm very active there. ROB: Awesome. If we google your name, there's a nice Google ad that runs right up top too. It's pretty sweet. YOEL: As it should. [laughs] Control your name. ROB: Very good. Yoel, thank you for taking the time to share your experience. It's great to learn about what you're doing both within cybersecurity marketing, but also that goal and the thought and the distilled knowledge going into the platform and the media side. It's really, really instructive. YOEL: Awesome. Thanks. My pleasure, and I appreciate you having me on. ROB: Thank you so much. Be well. Bye. YOEL: Cheers. ROB: Thank you for listening. The Marketing Agency Leadership Podcast is presented by Converge. Converge helps digital marketing agencies and brands automate their reporting so they can be more profitable, accurate, and responsive. To learn more about how Converge can automate your marketing reporting, email info@convergehq.com, or visit us on the web at convergehq.com.

On Sunday evening, Indiana jumped out to a big lead on Nebraska, gave it all back in the second half, but then recovered down the stretch to earn an 8-point victory. The win got Indiana back to even in conference play after six games. After the game, our crew broke it all down on The Assembly Call IU Postgame Show.On the mics: Andy, Coach, and IUArtifactsAmong the topics discussed:— The key play by Jerome Hunter that helped Indiana avert disaster— Another strong night by Al and Rob— What did Nebraska do to slow Trayce down?— Big plays by Anthony Leal and Trey GallowayWe also point out a few meaningful moments you may have missed, go inside the numbers, and hand out our game balls. All of that, and more, on this edition of The Assembly Call.

John Lawson, Chief Executive Officer at Colder Ice Media, started in e-commerce in 2000 on eBay. He claims that people talked about business in Ebay chat rooms, making it  “the first social commerce platform” before there was such a term. At the time, John sold bandanas, and was pestered by constant customer questions for information on “how to fold a bandana.” So, he made a video and tracked ten thousand sales – not ten thousand dollars in sales – from that single video listing. Today's digital/social media was not the beginning of social commerce. John says, “No matter where you go, whether first world country or third world country, there is a central location that is a marketplace where people do commerce” and that no matter the channel, there is always a person on the other end. If you appeal to human instinct, people will respond. Commerce, by its very nature, requires human interaction and “social” should be much more broadly defined. John explains that there are social channels that many people do not recognize as social, e.g., Amazon Comments. John wrote a book, Kickass Social Commerce, which offers universal stories of social commerce (as opposed to social media). In one story the book, he tells how Madam C.J. Walker, an African-American entrepreneur, developed a line of hair care products, marketed them to her friends, then sold them door to door, and finally had her friends set up “product presentation” parties for a cut of the sales, a sales strategy later used by such companies as Tupperware and Avon. Walker became the first self-made female millionaire in the US. John describes this as “early social marketing.” John presented “Twenty-one Kickass Social Commerce Tactics to Sell More Today” at HubSpot's 2020 Inbound Conference, where he talked about the phases of social that make people buy and “the flywheel of contacting, engaging, getting people to take action, and then measuring that action to create better contact.” Two key concepts he covered were: Identify and define your avatar, your King Consumer . . . and profile in detail a minimum of three people who would purchase your product. Establish a need for reciprocity. DO SOMETHING for your King Consumer that creates an imbalance that makes them feel that the need to do something for you in return. In a candid and enlightening history lesson, John also discusses how race has impacted the growth and development of black entrepreneurship. Thank you, John. John can be reached through “Colder Ice” on LinkedIn, Facebook, Twitter, Pinterest – almost everywhere except on Tick-Tock. ROB: Welcome to the marketing agency leadership podcast, I'm your host, Rob Kischuk, and I'm joined today by John Lawson, Chief Executive Officer of Colder Ice Media, based in Atlanta, Georgia. Welcome to the podcast, John. JOHN: Hey, thanks for having me, bro. ROB: Yeah. Good to have you here. If we were you know, if it weren't COVID, we might meet up in person. JOHN: Right? ROB: We have an Atlanta episode today. JOHN: Absolutely. ROB: Well, why don't you start off, John, by giving us a rundown of Colder Ice Media and what you all do exceptionally? JOHN: What I do exceptionally. I do e-commerce. Right. And I started my e-commerce business back in 2000 on eBay as a necessity. People were asking me the same question over and over, how to fold a bandana because I sold bandanas. It was annoying. So, I made a video on YouTube on how to fold a bandana. I would give everybody who asked that question that link. That bandana video went completely viral. Three hundred thousand people watched the video. Out of that, we were able to track ten thousand sales – not ten thousand dollars – but actual sales from that single video listing. That was like a cavalcade of understanding for me as people started asking me, “Hey, how do you do videos for selling stuff online?” I'm like, “Answer questions that people want.” That got me on stages. Finally I was like, “OK, if you need help with how to use social – the whole world of social – then that's what we did with Colder Ice Media. ROB: That's a very fun story. I can see why someone would put you on stage to talk about it. I think within that, at a tactical level, there's some cleverness, I think probably in your attribution –  because when you're talking about was not the easiest time to tie through who bought this thing. So how did you sort out that people were buying OR buying more of your product from that particular video? What was your tracking? JOHN: We would just look at the Google tag. Google tells you where traffic was coming from and we would see YouTube, YouTube, YouTube, and I'm like, “Dude, this is crazy.: And then, like you say, back in the day, the tools were not that deep, but they would show you the views. I would see these peaks and valleys in the number of views.  The week of Halloween, the peak would be 10X normal viewership. I had no idea that Halloween would be a great time to run specials selling bandanas. And I got that kind of information just by the volume of watchers during that Halloween week. So, it's if you take all of the parts, then you start seeing trends. You can't see a trend in a month. I know people think you can, but a real trend comes over years. When you see something happen three years, you can jump on and really take advantage of those little blips that other people are not able to see because they're just getting started. So, there's value in being there for a long haul, especially on social media. ROB: Wow. How many YouTube channels do you have in your orbit now? JOHN: Five. Yeah, I'm short. I will tell you one thing that I do – every time I get a new client, I create their own Google space – go out and create a Google account – because you need a Google account to create the YouTube. You're going to need that for writing or using their Google advertising. I will create that entire environment and isolate it for myself. What we do – we can show them the value of one-to-one versus, “Oh, by the way, here's some other tracking inside of your tracking.” I'm like, “No, we're tracking this. Put this in your cart so you can see exactly what our efforts are bringing to your business.” ROB: That makes perfect sense. You got this start in understanding on the video side, but you have this, I think, a broader intentionality around social commerce in general. How has that unfolded – your understanding from that first moment of “a video driving sales” to the broader portfolio of social platforms and tactics? JOHN: That's great . . . I like that question. What happened with me is I got really fascinated with Twitter in the beginning. I'm talking about . . . there were like one hundred thousand people on Twitter when I joined. What was fascinating for me is that I had created this business and I left the office space and I didn't have a whole lot of conversations anymore. So, I started using Twitter to just conversate with people while I was sitting at home in my home office. All of a sudden, it just started naturally moving into, “Hey, what do you do?” “Here's what I do.” “Oh, Ok.” Then I start talking about what I did. The e-commerce thing just started bringing other people in that were in the same field. That made me say, “Why or what is it about being or putting your expertise out that makes people suddenly feel like you are their expert?” You hear about this – everybody today will say, if you want to be an influencer, the first thing you do is start going to places and giving your expertise, There was no playbook when I was doing this. But I would watch this happen and it would happen organically. So, you start wondering. Social is very organic. I know people think it is some technology, but it's really not. I've traveled all over the world and no matter where you go, whether first world country or third world country, there is a central location that is a marketplace where people do commerce. In that commerce marketplace, there's always at least one coffee shop where you have social. Social and commerce go together. I tell people. Facebook was not the first social platform neither was MySpace. Actually, eBay was the first platform. Why? Back in the day, we would sit in these chat rooms while we were waiting for eBay auctions to end. A lot of people were talking about business in those chat rooms. They were a social commerce platform way before there was a term. They were doing social because social has been here since chat boards and chat rooms. AOL was Facebook, 1990. Social has been here forever. And if you grasp what I'd like to call the flywheel of contacting, engaging, getting people to take action, and then measuring that action to create better contact  . . . it goes around and around in that flywheel. And that's kind of what I talked about when we were doing the Inbound thing. It was about the phases of social that make people buy. ROB: Let's get right into that. We were talking beforehand. We were probably hoping to meet up at the Inbound conference and record this live and in person or in Atlanta. But we're not meeting up for things like that right now. But Inbound still happened. HubSpot's big Inbound conference, tens of thousands of people, maybe more – online. And your session there was “Twenty-one Kickass Social Commerce Tactics to Sell More Today.” And so I'd love you to dig in and get us into some of the meat and potatoes, maybe some particular things that you saw resonate back out into your audience on Social because you probably were paying attention to that. JOHN: Yeah, I mean, the first thing I'm all about and I tell people and Ok, I get it these do feel very, "Oh I've heard that before." And that's probably the problem is that if you've heard identify your avatar, I call him the King consumer. If you can identify and get in the mind of your King Consumer, then everything that you do after that speaks to that King Consumer. Create at least one. But I say really, at minimum three people that actually purchase your product. They can be real people or they can be fake people. Let's say you don't have your product in market yet, or you think you know who's going to buy that product when you create this King consumer, what you have to do is start thinking about everything that that consumer is into. I want you to go deep into your thought patterns about, not just what they're what they want, but what do they need, what situation are they in? How do they know how many kids do they have? What job do they have?  What are they what do they listen to? What do they say? What are some of the terminology they use? And the more you find that out, the better your business is going to be. I know when I created our business and I was selling those bandanas, I bought those because I was into hip hop and everybody in my neighborhood was wearing the bandanas. I could sell that to people in my sphere. But once I started putting it out there and getting the feedback from others, I was like, whoa, wait a minute; these aren't hip hoppers that are just buying these. These are the bikers. Oh, wow, that's cool. Like I said, people do in the Halloween. Oh, Ok. Cool. And once I started asking my people, hey, how are you using that? How did you like that? You got to definitely go out there and ask. You have to ask. What you're going to learn from your ask are things you're never going to be able to come up with in your own mind. Things that you think when you think that your product and you are your customer – you're not. You're absolutely not. So back to the original question. Identifying that King consumer is one of the things you have to do. The next thing I talk about was reciprocity. If you do something for others, there becomes an imbalance in them that makes them feel like they have to do something for you. That was the whole thing about me teaching people – and I didn't tell you that is the main question actually was – how to fold a bandana like Tupac. Right. And it's so ridiculous. But remember, this is early 2000s, so or late 2000. So, the deal was in my mind, I'm like; everybody knows how to do that. But here's the deal. The people between the East Coast in the West Coast – those flyovers would watch videos and they wanted the same look and they didn't know. Once I taught them how to fold that bandana, then when they were making their choice on who to buy one from, they automatically thought about, “Hey, those guys taught me how to do it.” And just by the nature of who we are, we wanted to make the balance inside of ourselves with reciprocity. So, I'll buy it from them. They might be a dollar more, but I'll go ahead and do it. So, you really want to think about that. That's human nature. We want to get in balance. We always do. If I ask all my friends to help me move, I know, when one of them asks me to help them move, I can't say no. That's reciprocity. Right? ROB: And it's even more helpful in it's not just that they want to know this information. It's that the Internet to an extent and social have made it possible to ask questions that you're too embarrassed to ask your friends. So, you're bailing people out of feeling silly that they don't know how to fold that bandana. JOHN: Yeah, that's true. That's true. Or, they don't even know who to ask. ROB: Yeah. And that continues on out to – I think you look at the some of the beauty influencers and all these makeup tips. There are people who want to know how to do something with their makeup and they are embarrassed that they cannot. Yeah. YouTube bails us out of that. YouTube bailed me out of not knowing how to fix my toilet . . . anything. JOHN: And think of who are the biggest beauty influencers out there – a lot of them are males. That's crazy, right? But you think these guys wanted to put on makeup and a lot of their audience maybe never did. So, who are you going to ask? Your sister? There's a whole lot I got to do before I ask my sister how to put on makeup, There's a whole lot of steps I got to go through. ROB: Yeah, you're probably not going to get a straight up answer right away on that. JOHN: There's going to be some other conversation where exactly we need to have a deeper conversation. ROB: Amazing. I like how the story it started out. When did you realize that you were going to be into this world of social and commerce and Colder Ice Media for the longer run? Was that evident right away? Or was there something after the instigating moment that really cemented the business for you? JOHN: It was probably around 2012 2013. These guys were writing a column about eBay sellers and they asked me if I could do an interview as one of people who are eBay success stories. I agreed.  We get on the phone and were doing this interview and she's like, ”You're one of ten people we're going to feature blah, blah, blah.” But we stayed on the phone for 80 to 90 minutes. And I was like, “Just for a feature piece, this is kind of weird.” We were just having good conversation. At the end of that call . . . she and her husband are a team and write together . . . . . . at the end of the call, they said, “John, man, that was really good stuff. I think we're going to make a multipart feature just on your business.”  I was like, “Really? That's pretty cool.”  And then he's like, “Hey, and if you ever think about writing a book, I'd help you because we've written twenty-two books and we'd love to help you.”  I was like, “Really?” I had never thought about writing a book before because I never thought I had much to say . . . or how much you need to say. But once we put the treatment together, it became my social commerce book. First. It was about social commerce, not just social media. But the key thing was, I don't care how many people like me – I want you to buy from me. There are a lot of people out here who have social influence but couldn't get people to piss on them if they were on fire – they don't really have the ability to move people. There's a difference between having likes and having people that will buy from you. And that's the big difference to me in social media. For me, it was all about the commerce portion. ROB: And what's the name of the book folks want to go . . . JOHN: Kickass Social Commerce. ROB: Excellent. Excellent. Any additional publishings of it or is it still pretty fresh? JOHN: You know what? Here's the thing. When I wrote the book, I wrote it forever. Yeah, right. I did. I literally did because the concepts, again, of social and purchasing go together. So, I grabbed all of these universal stories. And one of my major stories, he first story I talk about is a woman called Madam C.J. Walker. Have you heard of her? ROB: I am not familiar with her. JOHN: Great. Fantastic. So, I could tell this story if you don't mind. ROB: Go. JOHN: All right. So, here's the deal. Madam C.J. Walker was an African-American, a black woman. OK, I like that better. Right? She was a black woman and she created a scalp ointment because her hair was falling out from straightening it. She created an ointment that would keep her hair healthy. And other women saw her hair from going to where she had maybe patches, bald spots, and not healthy hair to these long, luxurious locks. People asked, “What are you using?” She had created this thing in her kitchen and she ended up going from her sink and to the bathtub to create larger volumes of it to sell to her friends. Well, the business starts growing and she starts going door to door to do sales. So that's the first part, right? You go from friends telling friends to going door to door. Her door to door sales grew so much that she realized that she was limited by the number of doors she could go to in a day, and that was hampering the growth of her base simply because there's only so many doors you can knock on. So, she came up with this great idea. She said, look, I'll get one of my clients that already buys for me to have a party and I'll go to the party and display my products at the party. Sound familiar? ROB: Mmm-hmm. JOHN: She was the one that created the model that today Mary Kay and Avon use. She created that and that was, again, social. You're expanding your network by using small influencers to bring their friends in and allowing you to do that demonstration. Of course, you would give them a cut for the party. Ultimately, she built a house bigger than the White House . . . and this was in 1918. This is she is the first self-made female millionaire in America. She was ranked number six of the top 10 entrepreneurs in Entrepreneur magazine for all time, one of the greatest success stories. But I tell this story because, as I was listening and reading and researching, I realized how social media can grow for commerce because. literally, she had her own, quote “Facebook” by doing what she did with these people. So, it's universal. I wrote from that understanding . . . from that standpoint. ROB: Yeah. You can imagine a version of a book on social commerce that would get nitty-gritty – focus very much on the popular channels, marketing channels of the day, would talk about specific ad-spending tactics – and it would have a very short shelf life. But I get the sense from talking to you that you define social channels – and you did this a little bit with eBay – you define that remarkably differently from many people. So, when we think about social channels today, what are some other channels you think may not be intuitively understood as social, but yet are extremely so? JOHN: Hmm, that's a good question. ROB: Because we could talk about Tick-Tock, but we don't and we can, but we don't have to. I don't think you could write a book with a long shelf life if that was your frame of mind. JOHN: Right. Because the channels always change their rules. Yeah. But if your understanding is, no matter what their handle is, there is a person on the other end and there are certain things that we . . . we as humans are just a higher level of animals and there's certain habits that we have that we're always going to use. No matter what channel you use to get there, if you nail that human instinct, they're going to respond to it. Here's what I give you that you wouldn't think of: Amazon comments. Amazon comment, that is a social channel. There are some people that do nothing but read and post or try things and post and then they read other stuff from people. And then they respond in those posts. They do this all day long. Why are they doing that? Because that's their social world. ROB: Hmm. Have you seen some people using Slack communities in a business context, maybe? JOHN: Yes, absolutely. Because what they're doing now is they're getting people away – moreso Reddit. I mean, Reddit, its killer. Reddit is really killer. But a Slack community is a great way to get people that are interested in a specific topic away from the distraction that is social media, especially in an election year. ROB: Hmm, right. Plenty of that. JOHN: There's so much of that. And people's moods are being changed sometimes by the constant back and forth in these major social channels like Facebook or Twitter. It gets distracting. So, you get your people out from there into a nice global world that doesn't have all the noise in it. ROB: Mm-hmm. Yeah, it's almost in some cases, there's too much – If you were in a room, there are some rooms where there's too much shouting to be helpful. You can't help people who are in the middle of a fight. JOHN: Right. Exactly. It's like it's really hard to get my attention when there's a train wreck right in front of us. ROB: What does that pivot point look like? What's it look like? What's an example – help us kind of think through it and catalyze our thinking – of someone who's commenting on reviews on Amazon and they're selling something and it's driving – I understand it conceptually, but it's a bit abstract. Is there a concrete example you've seen where they comment on this thing because they were selling this other thing? JOHN: Well, what ends up happening is, if you comment a lot, Amazon flags you as a commenter. Once you get that known as a trusted source, once you get that flagging, then other people that are trying to get reviews by people that have that tag or that flag will start reaching out to send you products. ROB: Got it. JOHN: Right. So, here's the deal. Once you recognize that people are gravitating to you, starting to ask you for your opinion, you've probably got something going on there. I've got a client right now that built a business – and this is so weird – around selling old music media. So, it's flipping CDs. Who buys a CD today? Why don't I get that? I didn't get that. I get it now. He's done six figures just teaching people how to look for CDs at garage sales and thrift stores. That's just amazing to me. You wouldn't think there was a community around that before this. I just never knew. So, there are a lot of niches – there are people that do nothing but needlepoint – there's a niche for darn near everything and it doesn't take a lot of people for you to reach out and find an audience that will either purchase from you or take your recommendations and purchase other things so you can become that influencer for that thing. ROB: Right. It's like the kind of the Kevin Kelly conversation, around a thousand true fans and there are lots of thousands of fans that are looking to be with him.  JOHN: Who did you say? ROB: Kevin Kelly, I think. JOHN: Who's Kevin Kelly? Wait a minute, is not the original? ROB: It might be. Where have you heard it most? JOHN: I'm just going to check this out because. Ok, says Kevin Kelly. Interesting. I'm thinking. Anyway, go ahead. Go ahead. I want to talk about it, Ok? KK.org got it. Technically. ROB: Yep. JOHN: Yep. Yeah, absolutely. Because it's funny you say that. When it first came out, I was so into that. The reason why I was into it, just to go a little bit backwards. is because I'm a huge Prince fan. When Prince left the label, he left a multi-million-dollar deal with Warner Brothers. He was like, “You know what? You can have my entire song category. I just want to be free.” And I was like, “What the hell?” Right after that, he put out his own album. This was the early 90s, He used like a chat room, basically a chat board, to sell a hundred thousand records. Now, this is a man that sold 10 million records for just his Purple Rain album and now he's selling a hundred thousand. And he said, “You know what? I made more off that hundred thousand records than I ever made off of Purple Rain. And when that thousand true fans came out, I was like, ‘Wow'.” That is the basis from where I teach. If you can get a thousand true fans, you're in. ROB: That's amazing, I didn't know that story about Prince, but even in the music world, it brings me forward even to someone like Run the Jewels. Their first album, they put it on their website for free. And they kept on doing their albums for free. And now their albums are basically for free, even if on Spotify. But they were able to cut through a lot of noise and find their fans a lot faster, but still make a living and in a way that is far beyond just selling music. JOHN: Right. Most musicians don't make their money off selling music anyway. That's why they have to tour. Yeah. They have to tour to pay for everything because, I mean, the music business is an amazing thing. I don't want to go into how they really do their business, but let's put it like this: If you sell a million records, you're probably not a millionaire. ROB: Yeah, man. Well, John, this is this is quite a knowledge drop here. I hope that when we're back to meeting in person, people will get a chance to get out and see you and meet you and hear you. When people want to find you and when they want to find Colder Ice Media, where should they go to track you down? JOHN: Just put in Colder Ice. That's all you got to do. Put it in your browser and I will show up I'm Colder Ice on every platform. I am one of those branding crazy people that did that a long time ago. And I'm Colder Ice on LinkedIn, Facebook, Twitter, Pinterest. I don't care where you go. Pretty much I own Colder Ice except for Tick-Tock. Somebody stopped me on Tick-Tock. ROB: Oh man, that's tough. Well maybe you can make a phone call at some point and get it unlocked for Colder Ice. The handle you reserve when you were early on Twitter, did you get another good Twitter handle early. JOHN: Man, you are just pulling out all the good stories. But my name is so common. John Lawson. When I first looked it up, there were like eight million John Lawsons. I had the story in my head. I remember this story that back in segregation – a lot of people don't understand this, but African-Americans are some very original entrepreneurs, not because we had the entrepreneurial spirit – but you had to be an entrepreneur if you wanted to feed your family. You couldn't I couldn't walk into the regular grocery store and buy groceries back then. You had to have a black-only grocery store. There was a black-only cab company. There was a black-only bus company, black-only hotels. All of that. Run by black people because “white people wasn't sharing.” But literally, those storefronts that were serving the black community, the day that integration became the norm, they would see their customers walk right past their storefronts to go shop downtown. They came up with the saying, “Well, I guess the white man's ice is colder.” And I always remember that: colder ice. That's the story. ROB: Wow, I didn't know that either and you're gracious in your history lessons. There's a lot of strong feelings tied up in that. I know. We're all trying to figure out different ways to actually be sorry and be better. JOHN: No, we're all getting better, man. That it's all good effects on your ear. That's the great story of America. ROB: Well, John, thank you for coming on again. I can't wait to get out and hear you share something in real life, but I appreciate you joining virtually as well. And I think our audience is better for it as well. JOHN: This was a great interview. I really had fun. ROB: Thank you. Thank you for listening. The marketing agency leadership podcast is presented by Converged. Converge helps digital marketing agencies and brands automate their reporting so they can be more profitable, accurate, and responsive. To learn more about how Converge can automate your marketing reporting email info@convergehq.com or visit us on the web at Convergehq.com.

James Kwon is Founder and CEO of Figmints Digital Creative Marketing, a 20-person, full-service, multi-seven-figure digital marketing agency that specializes in accelerating leads to sales. The company utilizes SalesAmp, which James describes as “business development representative as a service.” SalesAmp came under the Figmint's “umbrella” when James and April Williams, now Fitmints President, merged their two companies. (The way these two companies “came together” is described in a short video on Fitmints' website's About page.) Eight years ago, when James discovered that his first chosen career in culinary arts did not provide him with sufficient creative opportunities, he started Figmints with a focus on providing UI/UX (User Interface and User Experience) web services, which he did for number of well-known companies back when few people were doing it. In this interview, James discusses the sales process gap the often occurs because “sales and marketing typically don't like each other” – the marketing department wants the sales team to take leads earlier, while the sales team wants marketing to push leads further along before the “hand off.” In 2018, James was looking for a partner to better fulfill his vision for where he wanted his company to go. The synergy between Figmints HubSpot operations and North Star Marketing's SalesAmp, a marketing process focused on building pipelines for individual salespeople, created a marketing powerhouse that far exceeded the expectations of the two merged companys' leaders. Today, the now-expanded Figmints develops the right content for the exact right audience. As individuals respond (download information, attend webinars, engage with content, open email), the SalesAmp piece takes over with Figments' internal sales team reaching out to prospects on behalf of clients. Over time, Figmints delivers a thought leadership, content marketing, and funnel program that nurtures customers through the client-journey until they are comfortable enough to talk with the client's sales team.  Unlike most agencies where generated leads are handed off for follow-up to client sales/ boiler rooms (which may or may not get the message right), Figmints operates as an “educational ambassador,” running the inbound HubSpot process on behalf of its clients' salespeople. Most of the Figmints' clients have long, complex sales cycles. When the questions get too complicated, the client takes over. In his HubSpot Inbound 2020 presentation, “My Cheat Sheet: How to Growth Hack Five New Companies or Offerings This Year” at HubSpot Inbound 2020, James promoted the idea that entrepreneurs should consider starting multiple companies at a time. He lists a number of reasons that this practice makes sense and lays claim to launching close to nine sub-brands, of which four or five are still active. James is a big proponent of systems, optimization, and efficiency for everything from workflows to automated engagement to follow-up processes. He says he uses “several dozen pieces of software that combine together to make my workflow easier.” But, he admits, people are complicated. Early on, the agency experienced high employee turnover. “There is no way to love people efficiently,” he says. Today, employees stick around a lot longer because the agency invests in employee growth and meeting with them for frequent one-on-ones. He highly recommends utilizing Entrepreneurial Operating Systems (EOS), as described in Gino Wickman's book Traction. James is available on his agency's website at: Figmints.com, by email at: james@figmints.com, on Twitter at Twitter.com/figmints, and Facebook.  ROB: Welcome to the Marketing Agency Leadership Podcast. I'm your host, Rob Kischuk, and I am joined today by James Kwon, Founder and CEO of Figmints Digital Creative Marketing based in Providence, Rhode Island. Welcome to the podcast, James. JAMES: Thanks so much for having me, Rob. ROB: Excellent to have you here. Why don't you start off by telling us about Figmints and what is the superpower of Figmints? Where do you excel? JAMES: I like that. Figmints is a 20-person, full service digital marketing firm. Started here about 8 years ago. My personal background – I guess I'll tell you a little bit of the story. I started in UI/UX and design. Actually, I have a degree in culinary, so that was where my creativity journey started. Got to find out that I couldn't be as creative in the kitchen as I'd like to be, and I wasn't that good at it, so I left to do design work. I could be more creative in front of a computer, so I started to do design and became what I call one of the first UI/UX designers because that category really didn't exist when I started. I was Employee #5 at CVS.com, helped them launch that award-winning site at the time. Worked at BEAM Interactive, got to work on some really high profile, awesome sites like Mini Cooper, Virgin Mobile, Deutsche Bank, the list goes on and on. Name drop, name drop. I started the agency because I really enjoyed working with small to medium size firms. Fell in love with marketing somewhere along the lines. I fell in love with business, fell in love with marketing, just this infinite pool. Today, we're really focused on accelerating leads to sales through a program we call SalesAmp. It's like a BDR as a service. What I've learned through the years – I don't like the term serial entrepreneur, but I guess it describes me because we have probably four or five different sub-brands that I've launched. Over the years, actually, it's like nine. But today we're still working on four or five of them. I've had a blast getting to trial things very quickly, test things very quickly, trying to measure the growth very quickly. And we do that for clients as well as ourselves. ROB: Right on. BDR, business development representative – a lot of times this is somebody who's banging the phones, banging emails, possibly even sourcing or scraping leads or has some process feeding into that. How does that thread go from a background in UX and UI to sales assistance? JAMES: Great question. What I love about design is coming up with creative solutions, and when I started the business 8 years ago, I realized that you get to really be infinitely creative in business itself. There are major levels you can pull within business operations, HR, people, but especially, of course, in sales and marketing that was the area that was closest to the world we were already living in, doing websites and branding and brand story. We merged about 2-½ years ago now with another agency. The CEO there is now our president, April Williams. She had developed a system that she called SalesAmp, and we really added a digital layer as they've folded into our agency. That process, we think, is really transformational. We have a lot of great clients. Philips Healthcare is a client of ours. That's probably our biggest. GE ABB is a client of ours. Lots of medium size clients as well. But the whole idea is sales and marketing typically don't like each other. Well, in a lot of businesses, they typically are frustrated at each other because marketing wants sales to take leads earlier, sales wants marketing to push leads further. There's this gap that happens in the middle, and we thought this was a tremendous need. So we actually developed a process to not only develop the thought leadership, the content marketing, the funnel, but also have an inside sales team that reaches out on behalf of the client to hand-hold that prospect all the way through till they feel comfortable having a conversation with the sales team. These larger organizations have felt tremendous benefit from having this service from us because it reduces that frustration. Salespeople are busy; they flat-out just don't want to do it. [laughs] So yeah, we've had a lot of fun putting this together. ROB: That's really interesting, and that makes your journey make sense. If we were doing conferences this year in 2020, you and I might have been speaking face to face at HubSpot's Inbound conference, where you were speaking. We've recorded there the past couple of years, and quite often we've talked to BDR/SDR as a service companies, but they're usually coming more from the perspective of building lists and then banging out calls for those lists. Do I understand that you're actually generating warmer leads and then also pulling those leads through to some point where you hand them off in the sales process? JAMES: Yeah. Not to give away too much of the special sauce, but for the value of this podcast, for the value of your listeners, I'll share with you what we've found to be more impactful is actually running the good old-fashioned HubSpot inbound process specifically for salespeople. We run that process on their behalf – because you're right, a lot of these outbound sales/boiler room type of “I'm going to call 1,000 people a day,” those tend to fail because they don't get the story right. The game is just numbers, “I'm going to call as many people as possible.” But the inbound process is all about connecting the right content, having as much helpful content as possible to that exact right audience. What we're doing is combining both of those worlds. We want to develop that content, do it on behalf of the sales team, and then as people engage, we're reaching out to those individuals. As people download, as people attend the webinars, as people start to engage with that content or even open an email, those are the people we reach out to. And then on the calls, we're actually leading them into more content, bringing them further through that journey. That I think is pretty different than a lot of companies out there that are just a roomful of salespeople reaching out. ROB: That definitely makes sense. Where do you get to the point where you hand that lead off? Are you sometimes able to bring them all the way through to closing sale, or is there typically a point where you're handing them off to an account executive, an AE or something like that? JAMES: Yeah, we're working on a program where we can bring the deal all the way to close. Of course, there's a lot of complexities. Most of the clients we work with have long sales cycles. They're very complex deals. You have to have some industry knowledge to be valuable there, to actually make the close or get people to sign on the dotted line. But what we do is become educational ambassadors. We know enough about the business to be able to guide that individual, and once it becomes complicated or once the questions become a little too complex for us, we'll immediately tee it up for that salesperson at the company. ROB: Got it. I want to pull on one thread you mentioned earlier. You mentioned a point of merging with another agency. Quite often, especially when you get to being more entrepreneurial, I think a combination of let's say ego and logistics and financial concerns can be an obstacle to getting together – JAMES: Just those little things. [laughs] Yeah. ROB: [laughs] Nobody has those problems. How did you come to this point where it just seemed to make sense to team up and pursue a whole that was more than some of its parts? JAMES: I'm going to throw a lot of that to April, who was the CEO of this previous agency and is now our president. There was a lot of humility from the start. We met each other actually at a faith-based Christian CEO roundtable group, and we've known each other for a few years. That story – we like to use the word supernatural. It feels like it was more about the things that were happening, and we were going along for the ride, really, and submitting a little bit to what we felt like was the best way to move forward. You can see that story, and I would highly recommend anybody to check out that full story, on our website, on our About page. I think there's a 4- or 5-minute video that explains the process there. But all the work that was done to start that humble process was really from April, and I was following along. ROB: We will look to get that video into the show notes. It's a great point that so often, some of these roundtables, some of these accountability type groups where you open up a little bit could be a place where you open up enough to figure out how you and someone else can work better together. Makes a ton of sense there. We mentioned Inbound, and at Inbound you gave a talk, and your talk was “My Cheat Sheet: How to Growth Hack Five New Companies or Offerings This Year.” Tell us about that talk and what some of the key takeaways and maybe even key questions were from that. JAMES: That talk came from our merger, I'd say was really the catalyst. It freed me up to dwell and live in – I think my gifting is ideating, looking towards the future, thinking about where we could create new products, new offerings. In the past, we really only ever had time to do half to one product or offering at a time, and we'd slowly test them. I realized that this probably means we're spending too much time trying to develop that offering before we launch it out. Obviously, as a speaker, I wanted the title to be as provocative as possible, so I made the argument that you shouldn't just start one offering or one new company; you should try to start five. It's kind of an arbitrary number. Three, five, ten – you should start as many as you can that warrants – that you think is a good idea. Go and test those MVPs (minimum viable products) out there. Very quickly into that segment, I talked about a few different reasons why you would want to do that. One, 80% of these ideas are going to fail, whether it's a new company or a new offering. So hey, if you start five, maybe one will succeed. It gives you this massive leap ahead. It gives you this opportunity to play in this blue ocean where your competitors may not be thinking smaller, running those MVPs, making sure that you're testing the biggest parts of the idea. It forces you not to spend too much time on it. And then of course, you get some thick skin. After failing many, many, many times, it becomes second nature, and you start to move forward much more quickly. ROB: This may tie together; you mentioned that your company had at one point up to nine offerings, and now there are five. Are there lessons and maybe an example of one of those that was an experiment and one that was put to rest? JAMES: Yeah, there's so many failures in there. [laughs] Happy to talk about it. Very early on, we built a platform for the wedding industry. Early on, when we introed video as a service, we were doing videos for weddings to make ends meet. We quickly knew that this needed to be not part of our brand, so we created a separate brand for that. The wedding industry is an entire universe. For any of your listeners who might be in the wedding industry, it is complex and unique and special, and there's a lot of people that you need to know and a lot of ways that you do business in it that are different than other industries – which I guess you could make the argument is true for every industry. But we quickly realized that we need a champion for this. We need a champion for any of these products that we create or sub-companies we create, and I couldn't be the best champion for it It did fail. We wound up twilighting the offering. There was actually a software component that was added onto it. But it was a lesson learned that the offering was a little too far away from what we do. Today, a lot of our products that we're testing are things that we can actually use ourselves or we can use for our own clients, which makes it a little bit more – the resources make sense to allocate for ourselves. ROB: How do you think about when it's too soon to put an idea to rest or maybe recognize after the fact that it was a little later than you should've turned it off? JAMES: I think it's always later. In hindsight, we should've stopped maybe at the beginning. [laughs] But I think you realize when you run out of money, certainly. I set some ground rules. “Hey, this can't take more than this much time” or “You can't spend more than this many dollars” or “We want to see this many customers come in and this type of feedback.” It's a good example of where everything was going the wrong direction. Our feedback was starting to get worse, it started to slip way behind in the priority, we couldn't devote as much time or dollars to it, and so we made the – I won't even call it a difficult decision. We made the very real decision that we needed to put an official stop to that project and move on. ROB: When you talk about feedback, some people are very numbers-driven and some people are very intuition-driven. Was that assessment of the feedback and the priority more of a gut feeling, or was that a measured consideration? JAMES: I'd love to sound smarter and say it was very measured. [laughs] At the time, that was one of our early ones, and it was a little bit more gut, which means we probably spent more money than we wanted to or needed to. But today we have much more strict measures of when things are going off the rails or when it feels like it's not getting the attention it deserves or we're getting feedback from our clients. I think you need both. You need to have some soft measures, asking people what they think, scale of 1 to 10. You start to create metrics around soft measures, which I'm a fan of. ROB: What's another offering that maybe is a little bit further along that was an experiment, but now looks a little bit more promising? And where did it come from? JAMES: At the end of my talk at Inbound, we created an offering that was born from this process. I give a little story about Tim Ferriss, which I'm sure you've heard of and maybe your listeners have heard of. Tim Ferriss is a prolific startup and entrepreneurial writer. He wrote The 4-Hour Workweek. There's a story about how he wrote the second book, The 4-Hour Body, and the way he arrived at the decision to write that book was really clever. Instead of surveying people or writing a chapter or anything like that, he designed a handful of book jackets and went to a bookstore – if you remember what bookstores were, they were these places people go to buy books. [laughs] This is probably illegal, so I don't recommend this necessarily. He took the books off the shelf and he swapped the jackets with his book jacket and he put it back on the shelf, and he stood back and actually tallied as people stopped, picked up the book, opened the book. He would give them scores – a point for stopping, 2 points for picking up the book, 10 points if you tried to buy the book. Then he arrived at the decision to write 4-Hour Body. And the subtitle of 4-Hour Body is “An uncommon guide to rapid fat loss, incredible sex, and becoming superhuman” – why would you not want to read that book, right? But that process, since we don't have bookstores anymore, or I don't recommend this same sort of process, we've developed a similar system using Facebook advertisements and other advertisements where we create what we call fake ads. They look like real ads, but they point you to a very generic landing page that captures information and lets you know that this is coming out later. This program, we like it a lot. We think many companies would benefit from it, and we've developed a separate offering just to do these validation tests. We call it BentoSpring. Bento like bite-size, spring like launch, so bite-size launch. The term “Bite-Size Launch” was taken, I think, so BentoSpring was our next best name. We're piloting that now. We're getting that off the ground. I think it's definitely still valid. But this is a great example of a product that we could use that we offer to our clients. It's relatively inexpensive, so when we offer it, we say, “Oh, we actually have an offering we call BentoSpring.” It could be its own separate company, but it doesn't need to be its own separate company. We have the offering out there, and if people want to engage with it, they can give us some money and do it. ROB: I can certainly see that sort of thing – from a distance, you can see the tea leaves. Even if you told somebody, “We have a scoring system like Tim Ferriss's. We give points for likes, we give points for comments, we give points for clicks, we give points for form fills” – the actual process of doing it could very easily be something that a client doesn't want to do. JAMES: Sure. They don't know how to do it. They don't know how to do it, they don't have an ad platform set up. Again, this is designed even if you wanted to start a brand new company and you have two or three in your ideation phase. “Gosh, these are all great companies,” or “These are all great things that I could be doing. Which one should we do?” Well, let's go test it. Let's go build out a bento test and test some ads out there. Let's see which ones are easier to set up, which ones can get the most impressions versus will see the most click-throughs. And then you have these prebuilt ads. Once you get that up and going, you can just re-run the ads and point them to real offerings. ROB: Exciting stuff there, James. JAMES: Thanks. ROB: We've talked a bit about your journey along the way. As you reflect on the 8 years since you took the leap and started the business, what are some things you've learned along the way that you might do differently if you were starting over? Maybe some broader lessons on running the show, more than maybe individual offerings. JAMES: One of the biggest lessons I've learned as an entrepreneur – and about myself, so this may not apply to everybody or all of your listeners – but for me, I'm a fan of optimization and efficiency. I love setting up systems. I think that's why I fell in love with marketing. I fell in love with HubSpot because we can create these systems, we can create workflows. You can automate a lot of that engagement and follow-up and process. I use sequences every day. I have probably several dozen pieces of software that combine together to make my workflow easier. But here's what I found out. There is no way to love people efficiently. You cannot do it. Loving people is designed to not be efficient, or relationships are designed to not be efficient. So early on, there was a lot of friction in the business because I would hire employees and they'd stay a year or two, and I'd get frustrated when people get that millennial itch. I had somebody say, “James, I've been here two years. I learned everything I could. I think I'm going to leave and travel the world.” And that guy did really well. But today, we've held our employees a lot longer. We're invested in our employees to see them grow, painstakingly taking time out of the day to set up one-on-ones with every individual, more one-on-ones with the people closest to me in the leadership circle. Those are the things that have been very painful lessons, but such powerful lessons growing the business to where we are now, about 20 employees, multi seven-figure. But that's something I think could be its own book of lessons, per se, for loving people, caring about people, just treasuring this opportunity that I have to make an impact on their lives. ROB: Really helpful. One-on-ones are such a key connector of that. You mentioned days. Are you doing those mostly weekly, or more often or less often? You said some people are a little lighter cadence if they're not as close to you in the organization? Maybe you do more of a touch base on occasion? JAMES: One-on-ones seem like such a simple answer. If I say it, some of your listeners might think, “Of course, I'm going to do one-on-ones.” But you wind up not doing it unless they're really regimented. I recommend highly that – first of all, we run on an operating system called EOS (Entrepreneurial Operating Systems), a book called Traction by Gino Wickman. Once you start to get into peer groups, you'll hear the EOS model over and over and over again. So I highly, highly recommend looking at EOS because it gives you a framework for meetings, a framework for how you do business, how you set it up, how to look at finances, how to look at hiring, core values, etc. It makes the argument that every business runs on an operating system – some on purpose and some not. The EOS model recommends doing one-on-ones at least every other week. I would say as the visionary or the leader of the company, with my integrator, who's April and my number two, she and I meet every week and we have a one-on-one cadence there. Then with the rest of the leadership team, I meet with them at least once a month. I do two or three one-on-ones a week, and the gaps are filled with the rest of the team. Other members of the team might have rotations with me once every 6 months, which I think is fine, but they're doing one-on-ones with their direct reports at least once every other week.  ROB: It's such a helpful tool. It's so good for empathy, for relationship, and coupled with process. When we do our one-on-ones, I have a cheat sheet. I take notes. I don't take the best notes on it, but even the simplest things of making sure you jot down the names of their family members and key milestones, those sorts of things – it's process, but it's process that, to your point, helps you love people well and maybe at a little bit better scale than just relying on your brain. JAMES: Totally. 15 minutes. Here's just a few of the questions we like to ask. One, we always start off with that personal touch: “Hey, how's your wife doing? How's your husband doing? How's your boyfriend/girlfriend? How are the things that we last talked about? I heard that you just bought a house. Congratulations. How's that going?” Then we dive quickly into “What's going well? What's not going well? What would you be doing differently if you were in my position? What information can I give you that you might be curious about in the company that you may not have regular visibility into?” This is a key one. I love when we both share, “What can I keep doing, start doing, and stop doing?” This is a really helpful framework. Keep doing is an opportunity to say “Hey, you're doing a great job. Love that you're doing X. Please keep doing that. I notice that you weren't doing Y. Can you start doing N? Also, I noticed this thing. Maybe you should stop doing that.” But the opportunity for the other person to say the same to me – what should I keep doing, start doing, stop doing? – opens it up. And honestly, if we'd had the opportunity to do that earlier on, I think we would've kept employees longer, they would've been happier, and I think we would've been able to see those frustrations or those pain points that there're bottling up internally and made decisions about those and tried to make some shifts around those sooner. It's pretty simple. I think employees just want to be heard. ROB: Absolutely. Much like killing a product offering, it's one of those things you will only realize that you started doing too late. We were talking a little bit before we started recording about taking your office virtual during COVID, so I'd imagine one-on-ones are an easy habit to keep going, but in terms of other habits and systems and things you had going in the name of the culture of the organization and connecting people, how has that changed and what are you doing differently now that you've embraced virtual? JAMES: What a great question. I wear this very proudly, so I'm going to take off the humble hat and say that I think we've been doing really well culturally as a remote agency. We've been practicing going remote once a month for the last 5 or 6 years just because we're very capable of it, and employees like going remote. We actually give all employees a day a week where they can go remote themselves. We were built to transition to remote fairly easily. We use Slack, and we have our virtual meeting rooms and things like that. But I'm very impressed by the way April and the team have risen to the challenge and stayed together culturally. We've always done a Monday morning huddle with the team, and that's continued, but we added a second meeting, a Wednesday morning check-in where we don't do any work talk. Or typically we don't do any work talk. We actually play a game together virtually. This has been really fun. We do online Pictionary, we've played Scattergories, Taboo, Bingo. We told scary stories. It's 30 minutes, 9:30 on Wednesday, and it's just a lot of fun. We make it the team's responsibility, so every team member, we rotate, they bring their game, and then they teach the game and we just play. That kind of culture has just kept us sane, I feel like, and it's kept this rhythm of “Oh, it's easy to keep this process going.” So that's been really helpful. And now, as the restrictions ease up a little bit, we're actually starting to do the opposite where we're trying to meet together more often and do things outside, have barbecues, bonfires, and have drinks together. We did a kayaking trip. Here in Rhode Island, we have the beautiful ocean. We're the Ocean State, so we have beautiful water activities we can do. So, keeping those things fresh has really helped our culture, and I feel like we've done a tremendous job at that. ROB: That's super solid. I think you are pulling towards what I'm seeing emerge also. “The new normal” is overused, but I think historically, many companies, including yours, and mine for that matter, have been default in the office. Not in the office is unique. We're probably moving more towards default remote and sometimes you're going to do something together. That's kind of what you're describing. There's a coworking space here that has an outdoor – they have like 50 picnic tables, and it feels nice to be near people without feeling uncomfortable being near people. I know that's kind of a weird, convoluted thing, but in our reality. I think you're really interestingly there. JAMES: Yeah, totally. There's just new things that we need to consider. Like since we're saving on office snacks, we just started to give our employees a stipend so that they can buy their own snacks or buy remote work setup that they can do. We're shifting some of the dollars that we did spend or we have been spending over to areas that make more sense. Those get-togethers or working together, sometimes we have a Zoom room open where we just aren't talking to each other; we just have it open and see each other's faces while we're working, which is really nice. Or getting together one on one to work together for half a day and just work next to each other. Not for any particular reason or particular meeting, but just to be in the same space, which is I think helpful for your psyche. ROB: Awesome. James, when people want to find you and they want to find Figmints, where should they go to find you? JAMES: Figmints.com. Fig like the fruit, mints like the candy. You can reach out to me, james@figmints.com, or on our website I think we have most handles @figmints, so Twitter.com/figmints, and Facebook. But email is pretty good, website is pretty good. We're not so big you can't get in touch with us. [laughs] ROB: Excellent. James, thank you so much. Maybe someday we'll go back to conferences and hear you speak live. Until then, thank you for joining us here virtually. JAMES: Yeah, Rob. Thank you so much for inviting me. I appreciate it. ROB: Be well. Thank you for listening. The Marketing Agency Leadership Podcast is presented by Converge. Converge helps digital marketing agencies and brands automate their reporting so they can be more profitable, accurate, and responsive. To learn more about how Converge can automate your marketing reporting, email info@convergehq.com, or visit us on the web at convergehq.com.

Recently a list was posted by Buzzfeed, on “adults sharing things they think every teen should know.”  Tricia brings this list to today’s chat, with plans to talk about some of those items and see if they agree—and maybe add a few of their own. In this difficult COVID19 season, Rob talks of how difficult it is for artists and others who can no longer get to do what they love. They agree that doing what you love is a wonderful privilege, but also doing what just needs to be done can be a worthwhile accomplishment as well—and also that not getting paid to do what you love doesn’t mean that your talent or skill is not real and valued.   Quotes “Microphones and Spandex tell the truth!”  - Tricia “When you challenge someone’s priorities, is it because they don’t match your passion?” – Rob “Everybody told you how hard it would be to be an artist, but nobody ever told us how hard it would be to not be an artist.” – Rob “What a privilege it is to have work that is fulfilling.” – Rob “Your work is not any less valuable because you’re not getting paid to do it right now.” – Tricia “If the goal is to be rich and famous, well…good luck with that.  But if the goal is influence, then that has the capacity and ability to bring you fame. But fame is not a guarantee of influence.” – Rob “This show is not likely to change the world. But somebody who sees this show might be changed, and that individual might go on to change the world. So how seriously should we take this upcoming performance?” – Jamie Kern   Resources Mentioned Cameron Matthews, amazing Christmas home lighting artist/designer in the Orlando area—contact Rob if you’d like to utilize Cameron’s services in your home or business!   Let’s Talk Soon is honored to promote our sponsor for this episode, Heyer Expectations, an executive recruiting company.  They specialize in the fields of technology and cloud design, but also Peter Heyer, CEO, can find anyone for any position to meet your company’s needs!  If you’d like to chat with him about your hiring needs, send him an email at heyerexpectations.com!  

Jay Taylor is the Managing Director of Leverage, an award-winning digital marketing agency and Certified Google Partner. Leverage partners with its client brands to help them dominate their market with custom-tailored, location-based digital marketing strategies and concentrates on verticals in legal, healthcare, real estate and construction. The goal is to position a client company at the top in terms of search visibility and digital presence for each of a client's geographic locations and practice areas. Key to this effort is utilizing a “hybrid strategy,” embedding websites with obvious search terms and then including other less competitive, highly targeted keywords. Jay provides the example of a “Tampa personal injury attorney,” whose keywords might also include “Tampa dog bite injury attorney” and “Tampa slip and fall attorney.” While great content is essential to successful SEO, the agency recommends adding paid search, PPC, Google Ads . . . all of these combined can be “very effective.: The goal is to get a client's site to show up once on the first search results page, and quite possibly once on the second or third pages, with a possible first position in Organic . . . AND in the paid results above that AND in the right-hand side knowledge panel.  Is that enough? Not yet.  Jay believes reputation management is essential for establishing a successful online presence and even more critical for establishing a successful search presence. Companies need to have a reputation generation and management strategy running alongside their SEO and PPC efforts. The objective is to beat competitors with both the number of reviews AND with a higher average rating. Perception: More ratings + higher average rating = CLEAR WINNER! Jay started his career in marketing working at someone else's agency. He studied finance and marketing while pursuing his MBA and started Leverage Digital upon graduation in 2006-2007, way too soon, he says, in retrospect. A few more years of experience at an established agency would have provided him with the opportunity to learn how run an agency, “from sales to operations to account management,” and to understand the services. He confesses to googling “how to write an invoice” upon securing his first client. Jay gave himself a deadline of “being profitable within 12 months” and two years later started hiring staff so the agency could grow. At the same time, he shifted his personal focus from technical work to working on client strategy. Today, Leverage's creative team handles design and copywriting, the development team handles programming and website development, and the account management team services the accounts. When Covid-19 struck, his agency went remote. They are back in the office now, masked, and with social distancing measures in place. They meet with clients either remotely or in person, depending on the client's preference – but the focus is always “on safety.” Jay defines agency growth more In terms of growing the size of the accounts they have rather than adding to the number of accounts.  Leverage has received a number of industry accolades and honors, including those from the International Davey Awards, Hermes Awards, W3 Awards, and Communicator Awards. In 2018, Leverage was named the 9th fastest growing company owned or led by a University of South Florida alumnus. Jay notes that it important “to focus on your strengths and be the best in your area of expertise and not try to be all things to all people.” Jay can be reached on his agency's website at leveragedigital.com and on LinkedIn at: linkedin.com/jaytennysontaylor Transcript Follows: ROB: Welcome to the Marketing Agency Leadership Podcast. I'm your host, Rob Kischuk, and I'm joined today by Jay Taylor. He is the Managing Director of Leverage, based in Tampa, Florida. Welcome to the podcast, Jay. JAY: Thanks, Rob. I appreciate it. Thank you for having me on. ROB: Fantastic to have you here. Why don't you start off by telling us about Leverage. What is your specialty? What is your superpower?  JAY: Sure. We are a digitally focused agency here in Tampa Bay. We are specialists in helping our clients engage their customers at the local level with custom tailored location-based digital marketing strategies. Essentially, what that means is that whether our client has one location or 100 locations, we help them dominate each of the markets that they serve in terms of their search visibility and their overall digital presence. ROB: With that in mind, help us flesh out that idea a little bit. What are some examples of types of clients that you tend to work with? JAY: We have concentrations in the legal, healthcare, real estate, and construction verticals. A good example would be a law firm. Let's say a law firm that has five different locations in five different markets. Each of these locations really needs to be front and center whenever somebody is searching for whatever the practice area may be. Let's say they're searching for a personal injury attorney. If their customers search for a personal injury attorney within one of the markets that they serve, we need to make sure that our client is populating at the top of the search results for that particular search within their market. Then we replicate that for each of their markets. Again, whether they're serving one market or five markets or more, we make sure that they dominate the search results in each of those markets. ROB: That's really interesting. For the example you gave of personal injury attorneys, they can be, shall we say, very aggressive marketers. I would imagine some of those search terms are pretty competitive. What is the state of the art in 2020 to get somebody ranking for the terms they want to rank for in a local market? JAY: That's an excellent question. Everyone tends to go after the obvious search terms. We actually try to avoid those. We try to help our clients outmaneuver their competition in terms of the search terms or keywords that they're going after. Sticking with the personal injury example, a law firm here in Tampa that specializes in personal injury are going to, in most cases, want to target “Tampa personal injury lawyer.” That's an obvious term that all of their competition is going to be going after. It's very competitive, and probably not the best use of resources. What we would recommend or advise is, hey, instead of putting all our resources into going after a handful of highly competitive keywords, let's go after lots of less competitive, highly targeted keywords. Let's go after “Tampa dog bite injury attorney” or something along those lines, or “Tampa slip and fall attorney,” something that's not as obvious and not something that all of your competitors are also going after. By having that what we call hybrid approach where, yes, we're going after the competitive search terms as well, but we're also going after a lot of the less competitive, more targeted search terms – and by more targeted, I mean they'll convert at a higher rate – we are able to help our clients compete at a lower cost and also outmaneuver their competition. ROB: That sounds like a meaningful long-tail strategy. That informs a little bit of what terms you're targeting, but sticking a little bit into how are you targeting, in 2020 is this still a game of content marketing? Is it crafting specific pages really well? Are there supplemental non-SEO strategies that are coming to bear there? JAY: Absolutely, all of the above. Content marketing is a significant component if we're talking about organic search or search engine optimization. Content really is the foundation of a successful SEO campaign. We do recommend adding a paid search component. SEO and paid search or PPC or Google Ads, whatever you want to call it, combined can be very effective. What we like to do is help our client literally dominate the search results page for each of the keywords that they target. What I mean by that is, instead of just showing up once on the search results page – let's say they show up once in the second or third, maybe even the first position in organic. We also want them to show up in the paid results right above that, and we also want them to show up in the knowledge panel on the right hand side. We refer to that essentially as the holy grail, if you will. We have them listed three times on the Google search results page for one single keyword. And if we can replicate that for 20 keywords or 30 keywords, that is a very effective overall search marketing strategy that consists of both organic and paid search. ROB: Makes plenty of sense. One thing we've often heard when it comes to local marketing is the challenge of local reputation management, of ensuring that your contact information, whether due to a lack of maintenance or due to maliciousness, is not being shown as incorrect. Is there much of a trend around the need for reputation, or is Google getting better about that, and Bing and Yelp and so on? JAY: Reputation management is critical in terms of establishing a successful online presence in general. I believe it's even more critical when we're talking about establishing a successful search presence. What we advise our clients is that you cannot have a successful search presence without also having a great online reputation. We typically advise having a reputation management strategy in place that coincides with your SEO and PPC efforts. When somebody finds your website on Google, as an example, they see that you have fifty 5-star reviews while your competitors probably have fewer reviews than that, and they're probably going to be somewhere right around 3 to 4 stars while you're closer to 5 stars. Because of the volume of reviews that our client has and because their overall rating is going to typically be higher than their competition, they're going to be the clear winner from a perception standpoint that a prospective customer might have when they find them after performing a search. ROB: Reviews have certainly become a battleground for getting noticed. These days, some businesses almost have so many growing reviews that there's a question of authenticity around that. How are you seeing that question of, “Are these reviews for real?” And sometimes maybe they're even not for a competitor. JAY: That's interesting. One thing that I see is sometimes all of the reviews will come from people who work for the company. That's great; it's great to get feedback from your employees, from your staff, and it'll give you that 5-star rating on Google in particular. That is good to a certain extent. There's nothing wrong with getting reviews from your employees, again, getting positive feedback. But at the same time, that's not what your customers are looking for. If they dig a little further and they start to actually read the reviews, they're going to quickly discover these aren't reviews coming from other customers. These are reviews coming from employees of the company, and they're probably not going to have much faith in those reviews. It's much more effective, much more powerful to have reviews from actual customers. It's pretty obvious when a real customer is leaving a review versus somebody that is not being authentic. Sometimes you'll see a review that's way over the top and it almost sounds like it came straight from the owner. And in some cases it might have. It's pretty obvious. I definitely would not recommend that. We recommend developing a review generation strategy, having a system, a program in place to request legitimate reviews from legitimate customers. That's the best way to handle it. ROB: So getting reviews just becomes a process you execute as a business, just like you would pay your bills and order supplies and whatnot. JAY: Absolutely. It just becomes a part of your marketing strategy. ROB: Perfect. Jay, if we rewind a little bit, what is the origin story of Leverage? How did you get into this business? JAY: It's a pretty long story, so I'll give you the short and sweet version. While I was getting my MBA, I figured out that I wanted to start working in the marketing and advertising industry. I got a job working at an ad agency here in Tampa and really fell in love with the work, fell in love with the day to day challenges. I was studying both financing and marketing while I was getting my MBA, so I was learning the theoretical side of marketing, but I was also getting the practical experience at my job. This was right around 2006-2007, and then the recession hit and I said, “Probably not the best time to start a business, but I've always wanted to start a business.” At that point in time, I was right out of school. Really didn't have a lot to lose at that time of my life. So, I said, “I'm going to take the risk and I'm going to do it now because it's now or never.” That was my mindset. I took what I learned in school, I took what I learned working at that advertising agency, and I used that to help launch Leverage. This was in 2008. At that point in time it was just me, and I was working out of my house. Bootstrapped. I didn't take any loans. I didn't borrow any money from my parents or anyone. I really started with a few hundred bucks and used that to purchase my equipment, purchase the necessary software. I did everything. I designed the websites, I programmed the websites, I did the SEO, I ran the Google AdWords, as it was called at that time. I did everything. Then after doing that for a little while, I realized, “If I want to grow, I have to start to hire.” I also realized that I really enjoyed working on the strategy side of things with clients, and if I was building websites and doing a lot of the technical work, I didn't really have time to work with my clients and communicate with my clients and work with them on developing their marketing strategy and overseeing that. So, I started to hire and fill those roles that were needed to meet our clients' needs and ensure that we were providing them with the best outcomes, because I certainly wasn't the best graphic designer. I certainly wasn't the best programmer. I went to school for business. I didn't go to school for these things. So, I hired experts who did, and here we are. It's been a long road, but a good journey, a fun journey. ROB: At what point on that journey did it become clear to you that this was going to be able to be more than an experiment and a “why not?” and that you were probably going to be doing this thing for a while? What did that look like? JAY: I gave myself one year and I said, “I want to build a profitable business within 12 months. I have to be able to support myself within 12 months, and if I cannot support myself within 12 months – meaning be able to comfortably pay my rent, buy my groceries, have food on the table, put gas in my car – if I can't do those things after 12 months comfortably, then I'm going to go get a job.” So, to answer your question, I gave myself a 12-month deadline and I was able to meet those goals. I was able to get to a point after that first year where I was still working out of my house, but it was comfortable. It wasn't a situation where I felt like I was being stretched too thin. By Year 2, I was able to rent my first office. By Year 3, I was able to begin hiring employees. Year 1 was by far the toughest, and then after Year 1, I really started to gain some traction and go from being a solopreneur, as it's called, to building a team and having a legitimate operation. ROB: I'm going to press in a little bit. I think a lot of people would want to know – just wondering how other people are handling work life and structure as we're 6 months into this COVID pandemic. How did you first adjust your team structure and working patterns, and what does that look like for you now, in October 2020? JAY: We went remote for a while, especially when things heated up in terms of the pandemic, when things got really bad there for a little while. We went remote. We thought that that was the responsible thing to do, the prudent thing to do. It was challenging because we're a very collaborative environment. We're in the office every day. So, it was challenging, and we really relied on technology to help us get through that. Lots of Zoom calls. As of today, we are for the most part back in the office. We've altered the way the office is situated so that everybody remains 6 feet apart. Everyone's wearing masks. It's a very safe environment. We want everybody here so that the collaboration can continue. And yes, you can collaborate through Slack and other means, but that face-to-face interaction I feel really helps us deliver the best outcomes for our clients, and ultimately that's what we're here for: our clients. So, we maintain a safe environment, but without sacrificing that collaboration that really allows us to achieve the best outcomes for our clients. ROB: That's really helpful context there. What are you seeing in terms of clients and their receptiveness to meet? You mentioned you have multi-city clients, so some of them I'm sure you would get on planes to talk to. Where are clients at in this day and age? JAY: For the most part, they're fine meeting via Zoom. We have meetings pretty much every day with clients via Zoom. It's worked out just fine. A lot of our clients are not local. That was not uncommon before, so it really hasn't impacted the way we do things now. But we do still meet with clients in person here at our office in Tampa if they're local and they prefer to meet in person – of course, adhering to social distancing guidelines. So, it's a little bit of a mix. But I would say that our clients who are local do have a preference in some cases, still, to meet face to face. ROB: Got it. Little bit of everything, and I'm sure it comes and goes a little bit. JAY: And Rob, I just want to mention this. At the end of the day, we're here because of our clients. We try to be flexible and meet our clients the way they want to meet. If they prefer to meet by Zoom, then that's what we do. If they prefer to meet in person, then we make that work as well. Ultimately, taking care of them is our number one priority. ROB: Absolutely. Jay, when you reflect on the life of Leverage so far, what are some things you might do differently if you were starting from scratch today? JAY: [laughs] I laugh because that is a very easy question to answer. I would have stayed with the agency that I started with a little bit longer. I think I probably jumped in with both feet a little prematurely. I think there would've been a lot of value in continuing to work with that agency, and if not that agency, another established agency to gain more experience and just learn more about the business before going out on my own. But of course, like every twenty-something, I thought I knew everything. I thought I had it all figured out. At that age you tend to be very confident in yourself and your capabilities, even though you probably don't know as much as you think you do. I suffered from that affliction and decided I was going to do it right then and there. So definitely getting a little bit more agency experience before venturing out on my own is what I would have done differently in hindsight. ROB: What are some of the things you think you might have learned staying and learning in that agency environment faster than you did on your own, or you had to maybe take some lumps? JAY: I think there were probably a number of things. I think I would've learned a bit more about the business itself. Just how to run an agency, and just the simple – everything from sales to operations to account management, and then of course the actual services themselves. I think I probably would've learned a lot more in all of those areas. I definitely took the more challenging road, which was basically “just figure it out as you go.” I remember when I first started the agency – this was probably within a few weeks, maybe a month of starting the agency. Landed my first client, and I had to google how to create an invoice. I had never created an invoice before. Google was a great resource for me at this time. This, again, is in 2008. So I googled “how to create an invoice.” I did not even know how to create an invoice because I'd never had a reason to create an invoice before. Just things like that. ROB: You might not even know how to get money from people. At least you knew that you needed to send an invoice, so that's helpful. You learned some in the other agency. It's a good start for sure. You started off – you mentioned that 2008 timeline. I think until recently you were known as Leverage Digital. I'm sure when you mention something like a personal injury attorney, there's probably a steady pull to get into other lines of business. I think attorneys are very famously – out-of-home advertising, buses, billboards, you name it. How have you decided which lines of business to open up and do and which ones to still stay out of? JAY: In terms of the types of services that we offer and the channels that we focus on? ROB: Yes. JAY: You referenced our recent brand refresh from Leverage Digital to Leverage. We did that because Leverage is easier to recall, it's easier to say. There's too many syllables in Leverage Digital. Even hard for me to say, even though I've been saying it for over 10 years. So, we dropped “Digital” for those reasons, and also because we feel digital is becoming somewhat antiquated. 10 years ago, it made sense to have that in the name, and now I think digital is expected if you're a marketing agency. I don't think there's a marketing agency – at least there shouldn't be – on the planet that doesn't do digital. That used to be a unique characteristic of ours; I don't think digital is unique to us anymore. So, we dropped it for those reasons. But we still decided to focus on digital because that is what we excel at. A lot of agencies that have started doing digital over the last few years, they're still learning it. They don't really know the space yet. They don't really understand it. There's still a lot of trial and error and a lot of testing, whereas we've been doing it for over a decade. It's in our DNA. It's what we do. There's really no reason for us to get outside of that and to start doing billboards and outdoor advertising and things like that. I truthfully am not interested in doing those types of things. Of course, we could if a client asked. We always want to be accommodating and we'll help them, but that's not really our focus. That's not what we excel at. I think it's really important to focus on your strengths and be the best in your area of expertise and not try to be all things to all people. ROB: That definitely makes sense. The focus thing, you were even able to categorize early on some of the vertical markets you work in most often. There were plenty of things we didn't hear. Some people go deep into auto dealerships. Some people go deep into restaurant marketing, multi-location restaurants, franchises, etc. So, there's definitely some focus there. When we look at what's next for you and for Leverage, if people look you up, at least on LinkedIn, it looks like you've got a few people that work with you on this thing. So, what is coming up next for Leverage or broader in marketing that you are excited about?  JAY: With the pandemic and some of the external factors that we've all been dealing with for the last year, or at least for 2020, digital channels are really becoming more competitive because budgets are shifting more and more to digital. Advertisers are – as the example we cited earlier regarding billboards, they're less inclined to get a billboard because there's less people on the roads. That marketing budget has to go somewhere. If it's not going to billboards, it's not going to tradeshows, it's not going to conferences – it's going to digital. That is making digital more competitive, but it's also creating opportunities for digitally focused agencies like ours. We're well positioned to help our clients compete and remain dominant players in the markets that they serve, and we're also well positioned to help clients that we don't yet work with become dominant players in the markets they serve because we have that expertise in digital and we've been doing it for so long. ROB: That makes perfect sense. How do you think about, within the agency, scaling up? When you think about the next 25% of people you're going to bring on board to serve your clients well, how do you think about structuring? Are you in a pod structure when it comes to clients? Do you have more departmental responsibilities and more vertical focus – this person focuses on content, this person focuses on creative, etc.? JAY: The latter. Basically we have our development team and then we have our creative team. Our creative team handles the graphic design and copywriting. Our development team obviously handles the programming and development of websites. We have our account management team that handles account servicing. And I'll tell you, in terms of scaling, I'm not so interested in scaling in terms of growing the size of our agency as much as I am in growing the size of the accounts that we work with. We're not a volume-based agency. We're more selective about who we work with. We prefer to have fewer, larger accounts than having lots of small accounts, if that makes sense. By doing that, we're able to provide our clients with a very high level of service. And that's really what it's all about for us: the level of service that we provide. If we have lots of clients, then we're going to have to have lots of people to service those clients, and they're probably not going to get the same level of service because we're managing so many different strategies for so many different accounts. By having just a few larger accounts that we can really learn and invest in and invest our resources into, we essentially are able to function almost like an outsourced marketing department for our clients. And they get the same level of service and they get the same or better outcomes than if they were trying to do everything in-house. ROB: That's great to think about the benefit, even for your team, of giving them the ability to focus on serving a client well rather than having to switch contexts between serving 50 clients, and maybe something slips and then you're serving more clients not as well as you'd like to. JAY: That's right. I've learned over the years that whether a client is spending $1,000 a month with you or $100,000 a month with you, their expectations are not that much different. Everybody wants to get great results. Everybody wants great service. There's no wrong or right way to do it; it's just the way we do it, we've discovered that we want to be able to give our clients the best level of service and the best possible outcomes. But we're realistic and we know we can't do that if we're spread so thin because we're working with a high volume of accounts. So we really prefer to be selective, make sure that we're the right fit for them and they're the right fit for us, and that we can deliver on their expectations. ROB: Got it. That's perfect, Jay. When people want to find you and they want to find Leverage, where should they go to track you down? JAY: Our website is leveragedigital.com, and I can also be found on LinkedIn. I'm going to try to do this from memory – I might get it wrong, but I think it's linkedin.com/jaytennysontaylor. ROB: Excellent. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast, Jay, and I hope people will look you up. I learned a lot, and hopefully we all will together. JAY: My pleasure, Rob. Thank you for having me on. ROB: Be well. Thanks. JAY: Thanks. You too. ROB: Thank you for listening. The Marketing Agency Leadership Podcast is presented by Converge. Converge helps digital marketing agencies and brands automate their reporting so they can be more profitable, accurate, and responsive. To learn more about how Converge can automate your marketing reporting, email info@convergehq.com, or visit us on the web at convergehq.com.

Ian Garlic is CEO at authenticWEB. He started his career in marketing about 15 years ago as a consultant for one of the world's largest information companies – back when good video production required hiring high-end, expensive, technically-savvy videographers. When Google purchased its video competitor, YouTube ten years ago, Ian saw opportunity, left the information company, and started authenticWEB. As a video marketing agency, authenticWEB crafts journey-stage-specific, people-story videos designed to reach “the right customers at the right time.” The goal: to engage potential customers with emotionally riveting content to “earn their love.” For each client, the agency develops 10 to 100 video packages from micro content to 15- to 20- minute mini-documentaries. The different types of videos they produce include:  the overview video (most people's commercials),  service commercials (covering the different services provided),  how-to videos,  process videos (explaining complex processes so people understand what happens at different times),  topical video blog posts (including social),  videos covering frequently asked questions,  About Us videos (Ian notes that “About Us” is the second most useful page on a website, an important page for conversion, and that people usually go from the “About Us” to making contact with a company), and video case stories. The most effective video case stories involve interviewing a client's customers and searching for that gem of a story that will evoke a positive response in viewers. Ian says there is no way of telling who will give a good interview and who won't. From raw footage, authenticWEB parses different edits and formats for different clients at different stages of the customer journey. Ian develops videos content to help customers identify a client's business as an “authority” and “a new best friend.” The agency's clients include attorneys, doctors, dentists, and other agencies (because agencies often have a hard time marketing themselves).  YouTube: The Next TV In this interview, Ian elaborates on the increasing importance of YouTube in marketing outreach – he likens it to “the next TV.” YouTube videos need a “to be on point, perfectly messaged, and . . . delivered at the right time.” A website only gives you a piece of the interaction data. YouTube gets all the interaction data: including total and percent view time. That kind of feedback facilitates cross-platform video and content improvement. Online video production does not require the same high-end equipment used in the past. Ian notes that today he does his own videography and that he travels “light.” The production process is simpler, so that the focus stays on story and editing the story for the audience. Ian recommends reusing content. He explains, if you drive traffic to your YouTube videos, YouTube will increase your rankings. YouTube's search engine is second only to Google. A Google search will start a well-indexed video at the exact moment in the recording where the answer to the searcher's question is provided.  Some people think they can buy YouTube followers . . . enough to get their own URL. Ian reminds us, “You can't buy love.” Purchased followers won't necessarily view your content, so view time is sacrificed. Ian also discusses some of the advantages and disadvantages of some of the online production tools. He can be reached on Linked in or on his agency's website at: https://authenticweb.marketing/. Transcript Follows: ROB: Welcome to the Marketing Agency Leadership Podcast. I'm your host, Rob Kischuk, and I'm joined today by Ian Garlic, CEO at authenticWEB based in Orlando, Florida. Welcome to the podcast, Ian. IAN: Rob, it's great to be here. Thank you for having me. ROB: It's excellent to have you here. I think you've got a very distinct perspective that our audience will enjoy. Why don't you start off by telling us about authenticWEB and what your superpowers are? IAN: We've been around for a little over 10 years. We are a video marketing agency. We do some other stuff too, but it's all around delivering people-story video. We're really good at finding that story, understanding how these videos have to be crafted depending on where they are in the customer journey, and then crafting them to deliver and get a response. We create anywhere from 10 to 100 video packages for clients, and then ongoing we create video, do video SEO. Really, what we do is, like really good marketers, we help connect the client's story to their prospect's story and make them the authority. When someone walks through the door, they feel like already they're their best friend and the authority, and that's what the video does for our clients. So that's what we've been doing for about 10 years. We've worked with all sorts of professionals. We work with attorneys, doctors, dentists, and we're working with actually a lot of other agencies now. We have a lot of other agencies, which is fun, because the agencies have such a tough time marketing themselves. I have that problem. It's nice for us to help other agencies market themselves. ROB: Fascinating. I think I heard you say 50 to 100 video packages. That sounds like a lot. Is that different formats for different platforms, different edits? Or is that just that much content? How do you put that together? IAN: It's a little bit of all of it. It's different edits, different formats. You've got to consider where they are in the customer journey. One of the things we're known for is our video case stories. People fly me around to interview their clients to get that story out. I don't try to make people cry, but I kind of do. When you can ask the question the right way, you get that emotional response from your customers, and you have this powerful tool. We get these 30-minute interviews with their customers, and parts of that story need to be used in different ways, in different parts of the journey, from early on, just to get attention and awareness, to longer form customer stories. We're doing some 15-20 minute ones, like mini-documentaries. And then pulling micro content, little clips out of there. Plus, we make essentially 9 to 10 different types of videos. We make your overview video, which is most people's commercials. We make this thing called a service commercial – because most of us have different services, and we want to have a little commercial for each service. How-to videos, which are important, especially on YouTube. Video blog posts, where someone's discussing a specific topic. Under that video blog post, I consider a lot of social posts. We just call it video blog posts. Frequently Asked Questions are a big one. The core videos that we make besides those are micro content, but besides that, we're really known for video case stories and About Us videos. That's the second most useful page on a website. Most people throw up either a bio or some funny video, but really it's a converting page. If you look at your analytics, it's not only going to be in your top three or four pages – it can be out of there depending on what you're doing, but it's top three or four pages. But where people usually go after that is some sort of contact. So really having a converting video on there. And then process videos. We make a lot of process videos because people don't know what happens at different points. The more complex it is, the more people need to understand what's going to happen next and how this is going to look. When you add it all up and you do all the different points and all the different variations, it really quickly adds up to a ton of content along the customer journey. ROB: I've talked to people where they feel like they're intimidated to ask their customer to be on this sort of video. What have you found in terms of overcoming that fear? Is it ever really well-founded, or would people be surprised that more of their customers are willing to get on camera than they might ever expect? IAN: They'd be surprised. There's people you'd think would be great on camera that aren't. It's a numbers game. There's people you'd think would be poor, but have these amazing stories. One of the other things we do is audio interviews like this and then make them into videos with pictures, so it makes it a little easier. But it's the timing of asking, it's how you're asking. One of the things I always tell people is never ask for a testimonial. I don't even like using the word “testimonial” because that's when people really freeze up. If you've done an amazing job for someone and they're really, really happy and you ask them for a testimonial, it's like, “Oh my God, these people did such a good job for me. I'm really nervous about screwing this up for them.” They get nervous. So, I always tell people to ask someone for their story. Talk about something specific that you know is important. That will help. But this is the number one piece of advice I can give for anyone's marketing: install asking for those stories into your process at different points. People want to know what the onboarding is like. What is it like right after the sales process? What's it like if you have a strategy? What's it like a year after you're done with your project? Ask along the way. And you can ask the same people multiple times. You've got to dig for those, though. You've got to make it a habit. ROB: You mentioned you have been at this for a little bit. I think you said around 10 years. Talk about the difference in – I think there used to be a perception of video as being expensive, and it's probably still more costly than some methods of marketing. You mentioned I think a little hack in there of being able to take audio and turn it into a video. But how has your production process changed with the advance of different production equipment and tools over your time running the business? IAN: When I started 14-15 years ago now in marketing, I was in New York, and I would hire high-end videographers. I saw that, especially when we came online, we didn't need that high-end production. Now, I think production value is very important, but I see it inflate a lot because people are like, “I need this gear and this gear and this gear.” I've definitely trimmed down our production gear. Especially since I travel, I like it light. [laughs] I would say that's the number one thing. It's gotten lighter and easier to set up. There's a lot of cool things you can do now, especially with B roll, to make it interesting. So, it's easier now to – everyone can have a gimbal, everyone can have a slider. There's a few of these other things – you can get a nice 4K camera inexpensively. So we're doing a lot of that stuff still, but as far as the production process, we tweak it, but for the most part we've just been improving how we get the story, how we edit the story, what parts need it. I would say the biggest evolution – I started really in video around when YouTube was purchased by Google. That's when I was like, “Hey, this is going to be a big thing. This is going to be huge. You're going to have this search intense, and people are going to be able to find things on Google and find your video right at that perfect moment.” At that point, we still edited really well. We had a process for editing, but our editing process has evolved and evolved and evolved because now there's so much content out there. Your video needs to be on point, perfectly messaged, and needs to be delivered at the right time. Those are the things that we constantly improved, adding more copywriting principles into our video process and that type of thing. Those are the big ones, and then post-production has definitely evolved. We've evolved the post-production side and we're constantly talking about that. What can we do to make this look different, be exciting, be entertaining on the post-production side? ROB: There's a lot of acquisitions that show up as sort of interesting. What do you think it was about Google acquiring YouTube that really made you sit up and pay attention? IAN: (A) It was Google, and (B) video was just happening. There was this idea that you can get your face and your voice in front of someone using video. We can do that, but now Google was not going to let YouTube – that was doing okay at the time; it was having these moments – it wasn't going to let it go away. Then when they started blending the YouTube videos into the Google search results, that's when I was like, this is going to be a game-changer. If you get a video thumbnail into the Google search results, you can be anywhere on that page and people are going to click on it. They're going to recognize your face. They're going to recognize your voice more often. I knew that was going to be the game-changer. Google wasn't going to let that not happen. ROB: In hindsight, the acquisition price was significant. I think it was around $1.5 billion or so. What I think is interesting there is there's actually a cohort between them, Twitch, and Instagram. All of them, I think, were around $1+ billion in acquisition and all of them are probably right in the middle of what you do every day now. IAN: Yeah, for sure. Look at the YouTube acquisition; at $1.5 billion. Of all the acquisitions, that was a steal. It's the second most used search engine. We're putting all of our time and effort into YouTube because it's going to be the next TV. It already is. My son watches it. He's 6 years old. He knows exactly how to navigate it. My niece wants to be a YouTube star. She asked me all about the stats, and she's 10 years old. “What's the view time? How many subscribers does that person have?” At 10 years old. Other stuff will come and go; YouTube is not going away, and if anything it's an essential part of our life. ROB: Just got to keep her away from the comments a little bit – but we probably all should stay away from the comments. IAN: [laughs] For sure, for sure. ROB: Ian, what led you down this path to start authenticWEB in the first place? What were you doing before, and what made you head in this direction, which can be a little bit intimidating at times for some people? IAN: When I first moved to New York, I was still getting back into working in a hedge fund. Worked for one for a little bit, didn't like that. I worked simultaneously in commercial real estate. I was trying to decide – and I worked at one of the top restaurants in the world, actually, as a bartender. Just like, “Okay, what do I want to do when I grow up?” type thing. I was looking at the theme, and the theme was always marketing. I loved marketing, and I always loved digital. I've been on a computer since I was like 6 years old, which is a big deal because I'm not a millennial. [laughs] It all made sense. So, I went to work for one of the largest information companies as a marketing consultant. Loved it, but the advent of Google and YouTube I knew was going to be a huge thing, and also, I saw them not spending time getting to know the client story and really making good marketing. Everything looked and felt the same. It really did an injustice to especially the smaller people with the smaller budgets, because at that point it was who threw the most money at that search channel or whatever. Now, we separate it out and go, “I can serve and connect people with their perfect clients, and when they do that, they're going to love their business so much more. When people walk through the door and they know them already, they're going to love their business.” That's really cool when I get that phone call. It's like, “Man, you're right. People feel like they know me when they walk through the door, and it changes how we run our business,” which I always love. I knew we could do it better, so I started the agency, and yeah, it was easy since then. No, I'm just kidding. [laughs] Not easy. It's always this endless cycle of – you get the improvement, everything's awesome. It's a rollercoaster. We improve with systems and stuff over the years. Spent a lot of money on consultants, spent a lot of money on a lot of information, and it really improved and created all of our systems. That's helped a lot, but there's always things that are going to come up. But I always know, too, all I have to do is go look at LinkedIn one time and look at jobs and I'm like, “I cannot imagine having to go to a job.” I mean, I guess a lot of people aren't going to a job now, but I cannot imagine someone telling me what to do. [laughs] ROB: [laughs] A couple of looks at a job posting and maybe whatever some people have to wear to their office when they go to offices and that's enough? IAN: Yeah. I just look at LinkedIn for a few minutes and I'm like, “Oh no, I could never do this.” I could never go for another job interview. I'm officially unemployable. ROB: I think I heard you speak a little bit about discoverability within YouTube and video. You could sort of call it SEO, with YouTube, as you mentioned, being the second largest search engine. We've talked a good bit about the evolution of SEO for web on this podcast; we haven't really talked a lot about the evolution of search on video. Is search on video still fairly understandable? Are there hacks that people used to use that are busted and gone and bad tactics to listen to if you hear them? IAN: Yeah. There's hacks, but unlike a website – a website you kind of get some interaction data. YouTube gets all the interaction data. Yes, keywords are still important – matching up the keywords, understanding the keywords, going for the longtail – but getting that view time – that's why I talk about getting that reaction, getting them to take action. Total view time and percent view time are huge, huge things. So really understanding those “content hacks” of getting the view time is super important. Those are the big ones. I actually had someone the other day like, “I think I'm going to buy followers so I can get my own” – because when you get to I think 1,000, you get your own URL. I'm like, “But if you go and buy followers, on a percentage basis you lose that view time because they're not going to watch your videos. You're going to have these followers that aren't watching your videos and aren't interacting and you're going to lose that visibility.” Those are some big ones.  I would say those are the big things. And then always be reusing your YouTube content. One of the things I see so much that people don't do is they don't use their YouTube content in other places. You can email it out on a regular basis. If someone has seen it before, they can see it again, as long as it's not just a straight-up ad, if it's informational. Send that content back out. Those are the big ones because if you're driving traffic to your YouTube videos, YouTube is going to reward you with higher rankings. ROB: Got it. In some ways, Google may have seen this on YouTube first, because now in search they'll look at where you land; if that site is running Google Analytics and you stay there longer, they'll consider that as a search ranking factor. But it may have almost been inspired from the video realm. IAN: Yeah, the scroll and everything. It's a lot of the same stuff, I'm sure of it. They can't actually tell what you read, but they can tell what you scroll through. Also, now with YouTube, they're now indexing inside of the videos, and if you add the different parts of your video into your description with links to it, you can actually get indexed for that exact moment inside of Google, which is pretty cool. So if you answer one question in there, Google could pop it up and show – I'm sure we've all seen this now – where it starts the video at 3 minutes in because you answered this one question I just googled. That's another little bit of a hack I think everyone needs to be doing. ROB: That seems true certainly across really almost anywhere Google is doing structured meta data. They don't collect that data for nothing, and if you see them start to add that sort of meta data – they do this for recipes, for song lyrics, for your sitemap – they're going to use it at some point if you give it to them, it seems like. It's great that that makes sense on video as well. Ian, you've been doing authenticWEB for a little while now. If you were starting over today, what are some things you've learned along the journey that you might do differently if you were starting fresh right now? IAN: I would've niched down faster and harder. People fight the niching down, and I think it's more important than ever. I would've gone into paid ads for us faster, I would've been emailing my list more, and I would've spent more time on my sales through onboarding systems. We did a lot on our backend systems. I was always big into that. Within a couple years, we had it down to almost an assembly line. Obviously, there's art inside of there, but it allows us to fix things when they go wrong. But I didn't spend enough time on my sales and onboarding systems, and I've really nailed that down and it makes such a difference. ROB: What made you realize that you needed to focus? Was it outside feedback? Was it one day where you realized for the bajillionth time you didn't have quite what you needed? How did you come through on that? IAN: All of the above. I'm constantly looking at the business as a whole. Yes, I'm the technician and I like to know a lot about marketing. I love it. I have a podcast, the Garlic Marketing Show, and I'm always learning stuff. We just did the Giants a video learning from 40 experts' techniques. But really working on the business as a whole is a constant, constant struggle. Not a struggle, but it's exciting. It's like, “Hey, what can I tweak here? Where did this go wrong and how can in fix this?” That's a big, big thing. I've been in masterminds. We've had consultants. I'm still in a lot of groups. I talk to other agency owners all the time. And that's another mistake I made, too: thinking early on that I needed to do this all on my own and that everyone was my competition. Now I don't even view people inside that do the exact same thing as my competition. It's the same thing I told my clients Day 1, and I didn't listen to myself. We all want to work with someone slightly different, and if you market yourself right, you're going to get that person. The more of a community you can develop around yourself, the better you're going to be. ROB: That part definitely makes a bunch of sense. Ian, you've been in this for a while; there's always talk about new platforms, new exciting things. What is coming up for authenticWEB or maybe video marketing in general that you're genuinely excited for and think is worth paying more than a little bit of attention to? IAN: I still think it's YouTube. Honestly, I think using YouTube – here's another shift that we did. Once again, it wasn't in production, but it was a distribution shift. I'm always looking at how we're distributing the videos. YouTube used to be the platform that we'd put on the website and people would watch the video there. Now we're really trying to drive people onto YouTube as a whole because we want to get them into those suggested videos. We want them to watch more of our content. They want to watch video content. And when you're a professional, if you're an agency owner, if you're any type of service business, and you get people to see your face and hear your voice on a constant basis, that is the best marketing out there because you get that mere exposure effect. They will trust you more and more. YouTube is going to keep evolving it. They're getting better and better and better. They're changing around the algorithms, and it's hooking people more and more and more. I think TikTok is evolving, and if they don't completely screw with it with the government, I think it's got some legs now. But as far as really marketing a business and becoming an authority, I think it's all-in on YouTube. The other part is it's really hard to get spammed on YouTube because there's no messenger or anything. LinkedIn feels like it's gotten almost too spammed. I think people are going to have a tough time killing YouTube. ROB: Sure. It's certainly 5 to 10 requests a day that are straight-up pitches for business, at least, in my experience. IAN: Yeah. ROB: Are there any platforms – you mentioned TikTok; TikTok seems promising but early for both paid and organic. YouTube is pretty mature for both. Are there any platforms that are maybe not primary for organic content that you still see as being pretty effective for paid, even if that gets into ad insertions in other digital formats? How are you thinking about that? IAN: I honestly think TikTok for B2C, almost everyone needs to be there. If you think that moms and dads are not there, they are. They're watching their kids and then they're getting hooked. I think organic-wise – they have this crazy algorithm, too, that's so good at suggesting stuff for you. I think it's a great place also to test. But as far as other platforms go, then moving back to webinars, I think webinars are coming back. Using Zoom in a different way, using more of this course work, and we're going to figure out new ways to have groups on and have smaller groups. I think webinars are making a resurgence because so many people are now used to being on Zoom for a little while, where they weren't before and they couldn't really pay attention. Now they're used to it and you can really control the messaging there. ROB: Got it. I heard you mention Zoom, and I was wondering – is Zoom especially good at the webinar thing, or is it simply that the average person's familiarity with Zoom at this point is so common that it's not even worth trying to force them to learn something else? IAN: I think it's the latter. Everyone's on Zoom all the time. I remember with GoToWebinar, you have to download software and whatever, and some of these other webinar platforms are really glitchy. Zoom, yes, it had a shutdown recently, but for the most part it's pretty smooth. I think other things will evolve out of there and we'll get used to them, but Zoom works well for livestreaming. I personally use Ecamm, which I love, but Zoom is easy for people to use. I think that's the big thing. ROB: I'm not as familiar with Ecamm. For those who aren't, what does Ecamm bring to the table that's worth paying attention to? IAN: I've been doing a lot more livestreaming. The algorithms are really paying attention to the livestreaming. Plus, if you do it right, Ecamm allows really high quality, almost like a TV show, to your livestream. You can add text overlays really easily. You can do different scenes, you can do an intro. You can essentially be your own TV show manager with Ecamm. I loved it. It does really, really cool stuff and makes your livestreams that much more interesting. You can pull people in, pull people out. The other day I was on a livestream with Gino Wickman from EOS and people were making comments, asking questions. You can instantly pull their questions up from the comments onto the screen, which is really nice interaction. I do love things like Zoom and livestream because of that. We're seeing this hyper-personalization. And that leads into the other one, stuff like Bonjoro that make it really easy to hyper-personalize videos for clients and send them to them right away. That's where I'm seeing things going, this interaction – because you get that feedback and then you get improve your videos and improve your content and get across a few different platforms, getting that feedback and improving your content constantly. ROB: You're talking about that live TV show. One thing I just started playing around with a little bit, and I wonder if you've seen this and how it compares – have you seen this package called Mmhmm? It's very hard to pronounce. IAN: Yes, I have seen it. I haven't used it yet. I have seen it. It's similar to what Ecamm does. I think it has a few different features. But yeah, that's the kind of thing I think we're going to see more and more of, because you've got to keep them engaged. Those tools allow you to add that to your livestream videos. It's not just the livestream; you can keep them engaged and do a lot of those cool things. ROB: Right. The tools just keep on getting more impressive. Certainly, at the beginning of this pandemic, some good news was it was filmed from a home, but it was filmed with a real production team behind it. But the tools keep on getting pushed down and simpler, and you start to be able to imagine producing this Daily Show-looking production just with you and a pretty simple piece of software. It's shifting. It's remarkable. IAN: It is. That's where we have to get better at the content, which is great for everyone. It has to be more about the content, understanding who you're talking to, getting niched down and super specific about who you're talking to. It's not just about having video. ROB: That's true with search, that's true with video, and it's true with the production quality of the video. Everything seems to keep coming back to content and all the little tricks. You can play a trick on TikTok and get somebody to loop your video one more time than you thought by lying to them, but it's all going to catch you in the long run unless you make good content. It sounds like that's what you all at authenticWEB are focused on doing. IAN: Yeah, always making it better and better, figuring out better ways to get it, better ways to deliver it. That's what we do. ROB: Brilliant. Ian, when people want to find you and authenticWEB, where should they go look for you, other than sending a spammy LinkedIn request? IAN: You can send me a LinkedIn request. Just don't make it spammy. Tell me who you are. Tell me you heard me here when I was talking to Rob. That's a great way. Or you can go to authenticweb.marketing, check out our website, and hit me through the form there. Seriously, if you want to open up a conversation and text me on LinkedIn, go ahead and do it. Now, I do get a lot of LinkedIn messages every day that are 90% spam, so if I don't respond to you for some reason, I apologize. Feel free to follow up and say, “Hey, I just wanted to make sure you saw this.” ROB: Fantastic. Ian, thank you for joining us on the podcast. Thank you for sharing that journey and so much excellent knowledge, especially thinking about how to go deeper on YouTube and realizing that that ship has not sailed, that game is not over, and good content can still win there. IAN: Yes. It was great. Thanks for having me on, Rob. I appreciate it. ROB: It's a pleasure. Be well. Thank you for listening. The Marketing Agency Leadership Podcast is presented by Converge. Converge helps digital marketing agencies and brands automate their reporting so they can be more profitable, accurate, and responsive. To learn more about how Converge can automate your marketing reporting, email info@convergehq.com, or visit us on the web at convergehq.com.

Today's show is about drone crashes. Specifically, ADU co-host, Rob shares how he ended up crashing his drone last week, and some of the biggest lessons that he learned from this. After so many years of hosting ADU, the flying bug has finally bit Rob. Last week, Rob was our flying in beautiful New Mexico when he crashed his Mavic 2 Pro into a tree. In today's show, Rob shares his experience and reveals some of the biggest lessons that he learned from this experience. Towards the end, Paul chimes in, and reveals some interesting information about all the drone crashes that he has had over the years. Tune in to this special show now! Whether you are just getting started or looking to increase your revenue stream, our drone service providers are ready to help you achieve your most ambitious goals. Check out all our classes for 2020 by going here - http://bit.ly/mapclass2020 Recently crashed your drone? Unable to find trained technicians who can repair your drone quickly and at a reasonable rate? Don’t fret. The cool folks at Fortress UAV can help you get your drone back up in the air in as little as 7 days! Use Promo Code “DroneU” to get 25% off. Drone U Members get an extra 5% off on total repair costs. Check them out now! Get Your Biggest and Most Common Drone Certificate Questions Answered by Downloading this FREE Part 107 PDF Make sure to get yourself the all-new Drone U landing pad! Get your questions answered: https://thedroneu.com/. If you enjoy the show, the #1 thing you can do to help us out is to subscribe to it on iTunes. Can we ask you to do that for us real quick? While you're there, leave us a 5-star review, if you're inclined to do so. Thanks! https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/ask-drone-u/id967352832. Become a Drone U Member. Access to over 30 courses, great resources, and our incredible community.Follow us:Site - https://thedroneu.com/Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/droneuInstagram - https://instagram.com/thedroneu/Twitter - https://twitter.com/thedroneuYouTube - https://www.youtube.com/c/droneu Timestamps Rob crashes his Mavic 2 Pro Where did Rob crash his drone? Do your drone settings reset every time you set flight? Rob shares how lack of spatial awareness resulted in a drone crash Importance of looking up and keeping your drone within line of sight After 11,00 episodes and so many years, the flying bug finally bites Rob What are some of the biggest lessons that Rob learnt from his crash? Paul shares how he ended up crashing his drone last week

Justin Seibert is President at Direct Online Marketing, an agency that focuses on and excels at – direct online marketing – to move clients' ROIs in a positive direction. In this interview, Justin describes the process of developing strategies to drive quality traffic to its clients, converting that traffic into leads, and sending leads through to generate sales. Justin says the process of vetting potential clients is “very long.” Some of what the agency looks for to get a good fit: Medium-sized businesses provide the greatest opportunity to make an impact. Smaller businesses will not be able to get benefits commensurate with what it will cost them to work with DOM. In the case of larger businesses, the agency will not be able to move the needle as much. Highly niched businesses, either the lead brand or the challenger brand within a specific niche. These businesses are not “household names” unless the household is one already familiar with that particular industry.  Almost any industry. The agency works heavily with a number of SaaS (Software as a Service) companies, higher education, and ecommerce retail and less so with everything else – from “manufacturing to finance to entertainment.” In 2001, Justin started his career in Los Angeles, working for a company in the financial industry. The company had been highly successful with radio marketing but was looking for the next thing . . . and assigned Justin the task of figuring out how to use the internet to generate quality leads. His office was right next to the sales floor, so he got fast feedback on how good a job he was doing.  In spring of 2006, Justin moved into his basement and blogged at least five days a week, trying to get the word out about digital marketing. By October, he hired his first part-time employee. Justin says he always liked the idea of hiring people . . . because of the positive impact it would make on those individuals, their families, and on the community at large. But, planning and timing the growth of a company, especially when there is no outside funding, is a challenge. Justin explains, There are two classifications: 1) the revenue producers (sales, marketing, and 2) the internal administrative staff. He now has the confidence to hire for those internal functions when he perceives it is best for the company.  For “client-facing” employees, Justin looks at the current book of business and the pipeline to decide which functions to hire and when. The problem is in the timing. If he hires ahead of need, he may not have the cash flow to support those new hires. If he hires when everyone is swamped, the workload increases even more because the new employee needs to be trained. Cultural fit is paramount – but not intransigent. The agency's employees are virtual due to Covid, the culture has changed, and, in the middle of all of this, Justin has been hiring. Two things Justin notes as important when starting an agency: 1) Know what your process looks like. (He cites Marcus Lemonis's “People Profit Process.”) and 2) Get some sales training early on. Sales plus process is key. Justin can be reached on his agency's website at: directom.com or on LinkedIn at Justin Seibert (S-E-I-B-E-R-T). Transcript Follows: ROB: Welcome to the Marketing Agency Leadership Podcast. I'm your host, Rob Kischuk, and I am joined today by Justin Seibert, President at Direct Online Marketing based in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. Welcome to the podcast, Justin. JUSTIN: Thanks for having me, Rob. Excited to be here. ROB: Excited to have you here. The name of your agency is tremendously straightforward, but tell us how that points you, points all of us, to your superpower and what you do best as an agency.  JUSTIN: I love it. I realized going into this that I'm really horrible at picking out names for agencies, but the reason that we chose it was I believe in being very straightforward. I just want people to know what we're good at doing. What I imagined this agency and what my strengths were and what I wanted to be able to offer to clients is about results, and not about being clever, not about being funny or winning awards. It was about how we could actually move ROI in a positive direction for them? So “Direct” was really important to be part of the name, and then “Online Marketing” just being what we specialize in. If you fast forward to today, what we do really, really well is strategizing on how to drive quality traffic to our clients and then help them convert that traffic into leads that become sales. I hate saying this because it sounds so cliched, but clients see us as trusted partners, and that's so important in this industry, as you're aware, just because there's so much snake oil out there. We want to be able to be that beacon for people that they can say, “Yes, we know that our agency has us covered, and they're acting as an extension of our team.” ROB: Makes perfect sense. One challenge that can happen that I've seen when you're setting that expectation with a client who is coming to you because they expect results – that can mean different things to you and to a client unless you align on expectations. How do you set that initial engagement and the expectation that all the leads are not going to show up tomorrow, but they also shouldn't be waiting a year for something to happen? JUSTIN: I think it's really important to get on the same page up front. I speak with a lot of people, our team speaks with even more people, and we turn down partnerships all the time just because we don't feel it's a good fit. We have a very long process, longer than some people would like. A lot of times it's “Hey, can't you just send us a price list or something like that?”, and we're like, “How can we do that when we don't understand what your goals are yet?” So, we spend a lot of time to understand what their needs are, who they are, to then evaluate to see if we even believe we're a good fit. Assuming that they still think it's a match, then we continue down that process. And a lot of times, depending on the particular service we're talking about, we are even sending them a projection range of what we think is realistic to see if that aligns. Sometimes it doesn't, so they choose not to go with us; sometimes it doesn't, and they rethink if this is even the right strategy for them. Sometimes it doesn't align and they say, “Do we really need to rethink what our expectations are?” Because when we haven't done that, Rob, it's exactly what you're talking about where we get into it – we know from doing this all the time and knowing the industry and knowing what is reasonable that we may be hitting something really well, but it's not what their expectations are. So we really try to get that up front as much as possible. ROB: Totally makes sense. Even within this performance and driving leads market, there's such a wide range of customers. You can look at anything from the medical profession and elective medical procedures to local services, plumbers and whatnot, all the way through to Software as a Service and almost bleeding into potentially high-end commerce. What sweet spots do you see for Direct Online Marketing? Is there a typical client that you find yourself engaged with? JUSTIN: There is a typical client in terms of some respects. Number one, it's a medium size business. A smaller size business, probably for the price of doing business with us, it's not going to drive the value that they need. If it's a larger business, we're not moving the needle as much. We're not being as impactful as we'd like to be. So, it's that medium size business, it tends to be a good fit. The more niched they are, the better. We typically tend to deal with clients that are the leader or the challenger brand within a particular niche, where if you talk to somebody on the street who isn't familiar with that industry, they have no idea who the client is, but if they're familiar with that group, they go, “Oh yeah, of course I know who that is.” We've worked with some really big brands, but that's not common for us. What's common is that market leader or the challenger in a medium size business. When you're talking industry, we're all over the map. We purposefully made that decision when I started the agency that we weren't going to specialize in one particular area. Again, there's some common traits, but in terms of industry we do a lot with SaaS, Software as a Service. We do a lot in higher education. We do a strong bit in ecommerce retail. But outside of those areas, anything from manufacturing to finance to entertainment, all the way down the line. We've worked in dozens and dozens of different industries. ROB: When you say higher education, I can't help but obsess in a little bit on that. I would imagine at the onset of this pandemic and the first year of virtual for many of them, there's been tactical adjustments. But when they're looking ahead to 2021, what are you looking at for the education world, and strategically how they are setting themselves up to recruit that next class in such a pool of uncertainty? JUSTIN: That's where the partnership really comes in. I love this question, by the way. We have to understand, how are they adjusting? Depending on what they're looking to do and depending on where they are geographically has a big impact on what their approach is going to look like. I'm thinking through one client right now. They're taking students in dorms this year. They are, for the most part, not doing anything but singles, and there's more spacing. So, they had to find more housing and had to get really creative with what they were going to do there. Or they had to turn those students into virtual, or they had to turn them away. Fortunately, they were able to find some solutions for that. Understanding what ground rules we have to work with is really important to understand that. I think the bigger thing within the industry is – and this has been coming for a little while now – “Am I getting the value out of the dollars I'm paying for higher education, particularly if I'm taking out student loans, which could be $60,000 per year?” It's really imperative on the schools to be able to show the value they're getting and what they're able to do to help students post-graduation. I think that's what the universities and the colleges are trying to convey right now, and we're trying to do in terms of helping more. ROB: It sounds like a good challenge. But to your point, this is a strategic challenge that has been underway for a while, and like so many things, it has been accelerated during this time. That makes so much sense. If I believe your LinkedIn a little bit, it seems like you have been in this industry, in this business, for a little bit. Rewind us back to how Direct Online Marketing came to pass and what made you decide to do this instead of going to work for somebody else. JUSTIN: I started getting my feet wet and really learning everything when I was living in Los Angeles. A company in the financial industry had hired me. This was back in 2001, very much the Wild, Wild West days still of digital. I was there for a few months, and they said, “We've been really, really successful in, of all things, long-form radio marketing. For us to grow, we need another marketing leg. We think it's the internet. Go figure it out.” I had no background in this whatsoever. This was brand new to me, like it was brand new to most people. What was really awesome – I had so much latitude to try things. If you remember this, for people that know the search engine days, this was back when it was goto.com. It was the first year of Google AdWords at the time. So, everything was brand spanking new. But what was so instructional for me was that I sat right next to the sales floor. This was all about generating quality leads. If I was sending them bad leads – I'm looking at my numbers thinking, “Hey, I'm doing an awesome job,” but if they were getting bad leads, not only was I not producing and wasting their time, but then they would start to look at my leads as a waste of their time and not put the effort they needed to into those conversations. So really getting that feedback from them on what I could do to keep the numbers up but also improve the quality of leads – and then really seeing the fruits of my labor, where if you looked at the sales board, I could see by source what was going in there. If we fast forward 4-½ years later, when I moved away from Los Angeles for family reasons, when I started with them, they were a $25 million a year company total in revenue. When I left in 2006, they were doing $35 million a year just attributable to paid search. I don't say that to brag. They had a tremendous, tremendous management team, they had an awesome sales force, it was a good market. But I bring that up because if you still remember back to 2006, as crazy as it seems today, people still weren't sure if Google and digital marketing was really a thing or if it was something that was just a fad, the way that they saw the bubble burst back in '99, 2000, 2001.  I had that knowledge that this was a real thing, and logically it makes sense. This is direct mail on steroids. I couldn't have been any luckier to have that as my background for when I moved and then looked at my next opportunity. ROB: Once you decided to go in on building this business, did you have any partners early on? Or was it just you and a card table in a closet coffee shop early on? What did it look like? JUSTIN: Absolutely. It was me in my basement, trying to keep the kids and the dogs upstairs so I could do some work and go out there and hustle. I used to blog every day, literally at least five days a week. I had to do something to get us out there and to get known a little bit and build that up. That was in I guess April/May of 2006. By October, I hired my first employee that was part-time at the time, and got some really horrible office space, but it was the only one that was correctly priced. So, it worked out for my needs. Then went off to the races from there. ROB: Excellent. Maybe from Day 1 you had a pretty good degree of confidence from your experience. At what point did it become evident that you were going to be doing this for a while and with more people involved? JUSTIN: That's a really good question. I think there's two ways to approach it. Some of this is more apparent today with the advent of the solopreneur. I don't think that model was quite as prevalent back then. But I could do that and be a contractor, or I could hire other people. One's not better than the other; it's just what fits you. I like the idea of hiring people for a variety of reasons. One, when you look back at what my dream was, I really take a lot of pride in being able to employ people and to help them make their livelihoods and to add to the local community and to help support their families. I feel very blessed to be able to play some small part in those things. So that was part of it. But part of it, too, was there are so many things in life that I am horrible at, or at least not very good at, that by being able to bring in people that are better in those areas than me and to be able to concentrate on the one or two things that I'm okay at was helpful. And then the final thing was, do I ever want to be able to take a vacation or a sick day? Of course, as an entrepreneur, you don't at the beginning. But do I want to be able to do those at some point? I really can't if I'm just doing it on my own, or it's a harder process. So, to build out a team – we have a tremendous one these days, and really, I've been lucky through the years with having really great people – that really was the right model for me and for DOM. ROB: Along that journey, have there been any pivotal hires that you realize in hindsight really helped you scale beyond yourself? JUSTIN: Yeah, there's been a few things that have happened. One of the challenges with growing the business, especially if you're not taking outside money, is you're in this position of “Do I hire now or do I wait?” If you're basically operating off of cash, you have to wait until you have the business to be there, so then you scramble to fill that position, get there, and then go on to the next spot. As you get bigger, then you're putting real strains on your people that are already working to the bone as much as they can, and now they have to become less productive because they're going to train somebody up and then move on from there It's been a constant battle for us. It's been getting better now that we get larger and that we have a little bit more flexibility with the things that we do. But I guess for agency or just business owners in general, what I'd share is that there are stages of the business. There are certain things, like getting our operations in order, that I couldn't really have somebody dedicated to for a long time. That's the type of thing where they're not being “productive,” even though they're incredibly important to being productive for the agency and for our clients and everything else. Everybody had to take their own pieces of that. I would say we've had a few different instances where it was great to be able to get to the next step. At the beginning of this year, we changed our model up once again and broke out a new department. So we're always looking at those areas. But I've been really, really lucky to have so many tremendous people that work here because without them, none of the success is possible. ROB: That's excellent. You mentioned outside funding. Very, very few agencies are able to raise outside funding, and arguably it doesn't really make sense to, either, in most contexts. You mentioned within that cash flow and the challenge of stressing the team, when to hire. You have some people on the team now; how have you resolved the decision of when it's time to add people or when it's time to stand pat with the team that you have? JUSTIN: If you look historically, sometimes you have your hand forced and sometimes you have that situation for yourself. When I had a little less gray hair than I do today, I remember we were a smaller company – I would guess we were maybe eight people, nine people at the time. I don't remember the exact number, but I had two key people that were managers of the company. I got notice from the one woman in the afternoon, let's say on a Thursday, and I go to sit to talk with the other one Friday morning, and she's like, “Well, I have more bad news to give you.” So, within 12 hours, I had all of my management team give notice. That was a scary proposition, and we had to learn from that and what we could do, but we got through it. I would say, as tremendous as those people are, we're better off today because of the learning from that. We're at a point now, though, that there's two classifications. There's the people that are in some way revenue producers from the standpoint of they're in sales, in marketing, or there's some other need that's not a client-producing function. Maybe a manager of a department, something along those lines. Where I've gotten now, I have enough flexibility that when I've identified that, I'm no longer scared. I just say, “I need it. This is what's best for the company. I'm going to go do it.” On the client execution side of things, that very much is more a function of, what does our book of business look like today? What does our pipeline look like? And then based on that, knowing which functions we need to hire when. ROB: You mentioned having two managers leave quickly – all of your managers, in fact. JUSTIN: Yeah. ROB: What do you do in that scenario? You can elevate internal staff, you can try and make a quick hire – although sometimes that doesn't work out so well – you can just eat the pain for a while and figure it out yourself. What path through did you take, and what would you do differently now, maybe? JUSTIN: I want to think through what I would do differently now, but let me answer the first part of that, which is a combination of factors. One, leaning heavily on some outside resources, from mentors to HR teams to other people that could give advice and help us get through it. One is putting my head down in the sand and just getting through it until we can get through those different pieces. I think you always have to take a step back and evaluate, why are you there? What do you need to do differently to avoid these issues in the future? Part of it can be through hires. But really, that was a turning point, along with going through a program with Goldman Sachs and Babsen College called the 10,000 Small Businesses. I don't want to derail, but I came to this epiphany all around the same time of how important culture was. And shame on me for not understanding that before. I had kind of taken the path of “I don't want to force culture down people's throats. I really care about these people in a very deep way, but I don't want them to feel like work is their life. I want them to have a work-life balance. So, if they don't want to share things with me or the office, I don't want to force that on them.” I didn't understand how much people were looking for that culture and how important that was. When we look at the things that led to our success and all of our growth in the last 6 years, fixing the culture to now where we have a really strong culture – and it makes hiring easier, it makes retention easier, it makes our outcome better – has been such a huge part of what we do. ROB: I definitely understand that desire not to overwork people. But also, I think people want to come to work. They want to like where they work. They want to like the people they work with. It sounds like that's something you've been able to form over time. What aspects of culture have shifted during this season of people largely being virtual, and what things have stayed the same, but maybe in different ways you didn't quite expect originally? JUSTIN: I was really worried about that. I think there were a couple things that helped us out. One is the fact that we have such a great team already, and we have people that are bought in and interested. The other thing – we added a lot more communication. Everybody was already used to Zoom; we'd been using that with our clients forever, so those things were pretty easy. And we're a digital marketing agency. We're not a manufacturer. So, switching to home wasn't as challenging as it would be for other people. But I think one of the things that helped us out, based on some comments and some feedback I received from the team – I think they were really appreciative of the fact that they weren't getting furloughed, they weren't getting their salaries reduced, and in fact they actually saw that we were hiring. We were growing and adding more people during a very turbulent time when everybody's world was turned upside down. I think some of those things played in our favor and didn't really have anything to do with me figuring things out. But the big one was really just increased communication. I will tell you one of my big worries still is I believe there's benefit to people being in the same office and bumping into each other and overhearing conversations, and that's gone right now, for the most part. Our offices are open; some people are choosing to come in. We've left it to them for now to decide whether they feel comfortable with that or not. We have a few people coming in. Most are staying home. But I look forward to getting to a point when we can continue to have some of those in-person conversations. ROB: Absolutely. Likewise. I definitely miss that camaraderie and the knowing each other in that casual way that comes from being in the office. You mentioned a little bit the lessons learned from that management shakeup that you had, but what are some other things as you reflect on your time running Direct Online Marketing that you might consider doing a little bit differently if you were starting from zero? JUSTIN: Looking back, January 1, I always say “I can't believe how stupid I was last year.” I am constantly on the move for how I can get a little bit better and how I can learn a little bit more. The one that I'll say from an agency – and then I'll give another one that I talk about typically with entrepreneurs – from an agency perspective, I really didn't get how important operations was, which I sort of touched on before. It's “We're marketers. We're so smart. We just figure this stuff out.” That's a really good recipe for letting things fall through the cracks and not being consistent. I would just say understanding what that process is going to look like – start out with it from the beginning. If you're not one of those people, like me, that is – I'm not the person that likes setting up processes. I can do it, but it's not what I'm naturally attuned to. But spend the time and do that. Very much the Marcus Lemonis's “People Profit Process.” That's the process part of that. The other one that I talk about frequently is I wish I would have done sales training earlier. What people don't realize when they come from another office, they worked for someone else, to then starting their own endeavors – whether you like it or not, you're a salesperson now. You are out there building the business. Sales has such a dirty connotation in our world. People don't like sales. They think of used car sales. But sales is really, ideally, just providing value and providing aid to somebody and being able to match that. We don't do hard sales. If you're a good fit, we'd love to talk with you. If you're not, good luck. I hope you find somebody that's a better fit for you and hope you are going to be there. The process of sales training is just learning some techniques that work for you to make sure that you're aligning with the person, you're understanding what their challenges are and how you might be able to help. The business could've grown much faster had I done sales training earlier. ROB: Was there any particular sales training that you went through that you found effective, or is it really almost anything is better than almost nothing? JUSTIN: I would say the latter. I've gone through a few different ones. I've had my team go through some different ones, and I think you pick the pieces of things that you like out there. I think Sandler is a pretty common one that I got a lot out of, that my team has gotten a lot out of. But if you look at it, I think there's an emphasis of finding the pain, and to me it has more of a negative connotation when you think about it that way. It's true you have to have the person understand what their challenges are and how you can help them, but I'm more of a positive person. I try to be. So I'd rather orient myself around what's my solution to help them. That's why I say, again, I think it's great – some people are diehard advocates. It's a wonderful system. For me, I take about 95% of it and just tweak a few things. ROB: Sandler does come up a lot. I think what you've hinted at – a lot of marketers find themselves much more relational sellers rather than the process and pain. It can feel a little bit more formulaic than maybe an entrepreneurial marketer. JUSTIN: Sorry to interrupt, but on that front, I think the formulaic part is really important because there's certain things you need to do. My sales process has become much longer than many other agencies out there, but I've found that it's really important for me to do because when I skip those steps, I'm not getting the right solution that the person needs or we're not aligning on it. So, I do think it's really important to develop your formula, whatever it is, and practice it enough that it's natural. I understand why people don't like that idea, but I think that if you're doing those things, it still can really help. ROB: Absolutely, yeah. Feeling natural versus unnatural is perhaps one of the bigger obstacles that people do have. Justin, when people want to find you and they want to find Direct Online Marketing, where should they go to track you down? JUSTIN: Easiest thing is to go to our website, directom.com. I'd love to connect with people on LinkedIn. That's where I'm most active on social media. If you look me up, it's pretty simple. I'm sure if they're listening to this, they'll see the spelling of my name. It's S-E-I-B-E-R-T. I would love to connect with people there. ROB: Sounds great. Justin, congratulations on the journey so far and the success so far and, heck, even staying in business through one and now arguably two recessions. That alone is something, but to do that with a team around you is quite a thing, and to go through so many transitions, starting from the world of Google ads being surprising to people to having to master so many more channels just to serve a customer well. Congratulations on everything so far, Justin. Thank you for sharing your story. JUSTIN: Rob, thank you so much. ROB: Be well. Thanks. Thank you for listening. The Marketing Agency Leadership Podcast is presented by Converge. Converge helps digital marketing agencies and brands automate their reporting so they can be more profitable, accurate, and responsive. To learn more about how Converge can automate your marketing reporting, email info@convergehq.com, or visit us on the web at convergehq.com.

Twenty-nine years ago, Alvaro Psevoznik, CEO of DM Agency, was a 19-year-old Argentinian law student, designing flyers for hospitality clients in exchange for admissions into nightclubs. Alvaro found himself frustrated with Argentinian politics – which is plagued with fiscal instability, political corruption, de-motivational handouts for a large percentage of the (unemployed) citizenry, and a cycle of massive financial crises every 5 or 10 years. Alvaro's experience was, no matter how hard one worked and saved, bank accounts could disappear overnight. This constant uproar, Alvaro says, makes it hard for people in South American countries to plan and work toward a future. Alvaro moved to the U.S. in 2002 and went back to hospitality marketing. He claims that early adversity provided lessons that helped him survive the 2007-2008 recession (which closed some of his small- and mid-sized clients' businesses) and prepared him for today's Covid-19 challenges. In this interview, Alvaro talks about the importance of positive messaging, adaptability, and being “transparent” when faced with crises. He emphasizes that changing Covid-19 “rules” requires fast response.  Today, DM Agency is a comprehensive, full-service, one stop shop for digital marketing solutions. Alvaro explains that there are costs associated with trying to provide a wide range of client  services—you either risk people discovering that you are not as “good at everything” as you claimed, or you find yourself supporting an expensive, diverse “stable” of top talent in order to be able to “deliver.” If he were to start over today, he says he'd focus on specific industries and doing only what he was best at doing – lead generation through online advertising. Most DM clients are restaurants or hotels, but DM has also started to expand into the Esports -- organized, online, multiplayer video game competitions that produce $2-3 billion a year through advertising and sponsorship. Esports, Alvaro says, is huge. DM has virtual offices concentrating on Esports in Chile, Argentina, Colombia, and South Florida. Alvaro has created “splinter” agency entities – pretty much the same staff/different “labeling” – that focus on specific unrelated industries in order to avoid such questions as, “What would a restaurant marketer know about marketing windows?” Agencies often advertise that they are “bilingual. Alvaro says that DM is bi-cultural. Speaking Spanish is different from thinking in Spanish or Latino. DM understands that the Spanish community in the US is not a homogenous group – the culture of origin varies significantly by geography across the US. The agency divides Hispanic marketing into four regions: Mexico and North America, Central America, South America, and the South Florida Cuban community.  Aside from South Florida, how do cultural differences play out across the United States? New Jersey, New York, Chicago have strong Puerto Rican communities with some Mexicans and Dominicans. Mexicans as a majority are located more on the West Coast – Arizona, Texas, and California. Because the words, the accents, the thinking patterns, and the cultures in each community are different, marketing needs to be different. Alvaro hires Hispanic staff that mirrors each targeted audience – so the messages “rings true.” Google translation does not work. Neither does human translation if the culture, vocabulary, and thinking patterns of the translator are not the same as those of the target audience. Authenticity cannot be faked. Alvaro can be reached on his company's website – DM agency, as in digital marketing agency – dmagency.us Transcript Follows: ROB: Welcome to the Marketing Agency Leadership Podcast. I'm your host, Rob Kischuk, and I'm joined today by Alvaro Psevoznik, the CEO of DM Agency based in Hollywood, Florida. Welcome to the podcast. ALVARO: Hey, Rob. Thank you very much for having me. ROB: Yeah, absolutely great to have you here. Why don't you start off by telling us about DM Agency and what makes DM great? ALVARO: DM Agency is the conclusion of 29 years of evolution, learning, growing, going back to small – especially after this pandemic – making mistakes, and many other things. Fortunately, good things, I'd say. When I was thinking, “What makes us different?” I said, “Too many things.” But I want to put in three things. Full service – I mean we offer for real a full service solution, a one-stop digital marketing solution to our clients. We can help most industries, but we realized a few years ago that we are really good and we have a lot of experience with hospitality. Mostly restaurants and some hotels. Now we're stepping in the Esports niche and we are doing really good things in that niche. We are a bicultural agency. It doesn't mean that we are bilingual. You can have anybody in your company speaking Spanish but thinking in Spanish or thinking in Latino is a very different thing, and we are different because of that. We've got this mindset and we understand the Latino community, the U.S. Hispanic community – which is not Mexicans only, like a lot of marketing managers or marketing directors think. These are the three things that make us different than most of the other digital agencies that I see in the market. ROB: That's fascinating, especially with that “not bilingual, but bicultural” distinction there. And for certain, the U.S. Latino population is not homogeneous in any way. How do you even think about bridging the gap? Because you could even get into many, many cultures beyond the Latino community. How do you find that messaging that transcends maybe some of the different cultures? There are different countries, and each country is different. We think our country is different; you mentioned you're from Argentina. Argentina is different from Mexico, Mexico is different from Cuba, and on and on and on. How do you balance it? Because obviously, many marketers are not going to go in for a 20-culture campaign most of the time. ALVARO: Yeah. It's not a 20-culture either. Mostly we divide Latin America when it comes to marketing let's say into four regions: Mexico and North America, Central America, South America, and there's a fourth one that applies mostly to South Florida, which is the Cuban community. When we build content for South Florida, where you also have Dominicans and you've got a lot of Mexicans as well and you've got a lot of Venezuelans and Colombians, the job is a little more difficult. But since most of the community are from Cuba, we focus on Cuban-oriented content. We're used to it. I moved to Miami 18 years ago, and the first thing I heard in Spanish was a Cuban accent and Cuban words. So, we got used to it. New Jersey, New York, Chicago is a different thing. You've got a lot of Puerto Rican community mixed with some Mexicans and Dominicans. So, the message is different, the words are different, the accent, if you do some video content, is going to be different. And then you've got the Mexicans, which are located mostly on the West Coast – Arizona, Texas, and California, of course. The message is not that complicated when you have to target these audiences. Now, I was talking about accents and words; there is also a cultural thing that you have to consider when you are building a message. These days we are focused mostly on digital and mostly on social media. I don't want to go deeper into this, but I'm going to just give you a quick example. When we build a campaign for the West Coast, when we know that most of the audience is first, second, and probably third generation Mexicans, we hire Mexican copywriters, Mexican voiceovers. We adapt the message to the community or to the target audience by using people with the same background. We do the same thing here in Miami and South Florida, and we apply the same system in other markets, and it works pretty good. ROB: It's sensible, but it would be completely opaque to somebody who didn't know how to break it down so clearly into four cultural segments. I think that's really, really fascinating there. I want to highlight also something you mentioned about your tenure in the industry. We are here – I don't know where we are in the midst of this COVID thing anymore. Are we in the middle? Who knows? But it is August of 2020. With your time in the industry, this is not the first set of economic headwinds you've seen where you've probably had clients react, you've had to think about changing tactics, changing messaging. How many times would you say you've navigated business through a downturn at least kind of like this? ALVARO: I'm laughing here because it was more than once. [laughs] Going back in the day, I started 29 years ago, when I was 19. Argentina is a market that goes up and down every 5 to 10 years. You've got a huge crisis every 5, maybe 10 years if you're lucky. So, I've seen a couple of crises in the market. But moving forward to the States, I had to deal with the 2008-2009 crisis. It was not only a recession; it was a huge crisis. I remember a lot of my clients went out of business. They just closed their doors. We had to downsize our company and adapt the message. Back in '08, it was the beginning of social media, and we were exploring that niche and that industry. I remember that we had to adapt the message to something very positive. People were doing really bad in those days. A lot of people lost their homes, lost their jobs. That was a huge impact, especially for mid-size companies and small size companies back in the day. The way we did it back in '08-'09, and now because of the COVID situation, was being very transparent. You've heard, Rob, this message, “We are in this together,” and it's true. We are in this together. At some point we were so tired of reading and listening on the radio, “we are in this together,” but at the end of the day, we have to adapt to the situation and understand that there's a lot of last-minute changes to do in your communication in businesses. I'm going to give you a quick example. We work with a lot of restaurants. Here in Miami, we got a lot of back and forth with regulations after COVID. “You can open up to 50% of capacity”; 48 hours later, they closed the restaurants again. It was chaos. We had to adapt to that. I feel the frustration of every restaurant and hotel owner, and I also understand, and my people understood, the frustration on the other side – customers, making plans for a wedding, for a bar mitzvah, for a vacation, and being frustrated. This is when we as an agency had to adapt our message and be very close not only to our clients, but to their customers as well. ROB: You mentioned a greater frequency of downturn in Argentina. For those of us who are not from that orbit, what's the difference maybe between the occasional big messes we have here, and it sounds like a more frequent – is it even more expected, perhaps, in Argentina? ALVARO: Yeah, the biggest word that synthesizes everything is corruption, like most countries in Latin America, some countries in Africa. Argentina is a big country. It's a rich country with poor people and rich politicians. I don't want to make this interview a political message about Argentina, but I think it's the situation that a lot of countries in Latin America have to deal with. Something worse than Argentina is what happened in Venezuela in the last few years. You've got a huge percentage of the population below the poverty line. In Argentina now – we used to have a populist government that gave all kinds of food stamps and all kinds of help to people. At the end of the day, you've got a government that is supporting a lot of people that are not working. A huge percentage of the population are not working because they get a check every month in the mail. That's what makes Argentina a country that doesn't give you the chance to plan long term. That's one of the reasons I decided to move to the States back in 2002 and start from scratch. I remember December 2001, the government froze everybody's bank accounts. Business and personal accounts were frozen. If you had $100, you were done. If you had a million dollars, “I'm sorry, but it's in the bank. We don't know when we're going to return that money.” That's why when you move and you start doing business in markets like the U.S. market, it's a completely different thing. You can plan ahead. Even if you get a pandemic, even if you are in the middle of this situation that we were talking about in 2008-09, the recovery is much faster than any other country I would say probably in the world. That's one of the things that I love about this country. We can recover. We will recover. And this is not a political statement. It's a fact. We're going to recover sooner than later. And I agree with you, we don't know when this pandemic is going to stop, when the effects of the pandemic will cease. If the pandemic probably stops, I don't know, in November – I don't think so, but let's say November – but the effects are going to be long term, especially in a couple of industries that I have to deal with: hospitality and tourism. It's going to be really, really hard. ROB: Yeah, restaurants may not be the same for a while. But there may certainly also, I think, be fresh opportunity for the ones who really iterate on their model. I appreciate the broad perspective you bring on Argentina and those differences and the downturns that you see there due to corruption. I don't feel like it's political. It is certainly helpful. I do want to take a turn towards some of the aspirational things you have going on in your world. You mentioned when we were talking beforehand that you have not just DM Agency, but you have a little bit of an empire growing. Tell us about the sister/sibling agencies that you have to DM and the broader marketing ecosystem that's on your mind on an average day. ALVARO: Empire is such a big word but thank you very much. I like it. [laughs] When I was doing this in Argentina during the '90s, my first customers were restaurants. The work that we were doing was really good. I had no marketing education back in the day; I was just a law student designing flyers to get free admissions into nightclubs and free drinks. Our first customers over there were restaurants. So, when I started again my business, now in the United States, back in 2002, my first customers were restaurants. A few years ago, I realized that half of my clients were in that niche and the other half was getting confused. “Hey, you're working for a lot of restaurants, and I sell impact windows and doors,” which is a huge niche here in South Florida. “I don't trust a guy that works for restaurants to reach people looking for windows.” I realized that I needed a second brand. It's not a second agency; it's almost the same team except for a couple of professionals that are focused, like myself, in the food and beverage industry. We created Foodie – which is a social media term that came out a few years ago – we created Foodie Restaurant Agency, basically offering the same services, a one-stop shop of graphic design and branding, social media, Google ads, Facebook ads, reputation management – which is very important for restaurants these days. Then, with a couple of partners, and after getting a couple of licenses to operate in Latin America and the U.S. Hispanic market, we started a third brand called EsportsHQ. As you know, Rob, Esports is a huge $2-3 billion a year industry when it comes to advertising and sponsoring. That's basically one big team under the DM Agency umbrella and a few small teams specialized in restaurants for the Foodie Restaurant Agency and Esports for the EsportsHQ Agency. That's how I distributed my team and our marketing. When we have to market ourselves to restaurants, we go as Foodie Restaurant Agency, and the same thing with the Esports agency. ROB: When did you start in Esports? ALVARO: We started back in October 2019. A friend of mine who works in a big company told me, “Hey, there's something big called Esports.” I said, “That's gaming. That's what my son does when he's bored.” He told me, “It's way more than that.” He introduced me to the industry, and he told me there's a huge opportunity for the U.S. Hispanic market. As you know, there are two budgets. A national company is going to have two different budgets – when it comes to advertising, I mean: one for the general market and one for the Hispanic market. When it comes to TV, for Univision or Telemundo or all the radio stations in Spanish. That advertising money comes from a separate budget. So, he told me there's a huge opportunity for the U.S. Hispanic market and also for the Latin American market. I couldn't do it by myself, so I invited him to join me. I got a couple of customers in Colombia and in Argentina, and we started this company, EsportsHQ. Because of the pandemic, some things were a little delayed, but so far we've got virtual offices in Chile, Argentina, Colombia, and here in South Florida. We are closing a couple of deals for Q4 and Q1 2021 with big brands that understand that you've got a huge number of gamers, but you have a much bigger, way bigger, number of viewers. There's a lot of people that, instead of watching TV or watching a movie on Netflix, they are watching games now. Instead of a football game or a soccer game, they are watching people playing Fortnite or League of Legends, and there's a huge market over there, and we are after that. ROB: I was going to ask what the key games were right now. League and Fortnite. And then what is the marketing opportunity? Are they sponsoring teams? Are they sponsoring streaming broadcasts? What is the advertising opportunity? ALVARO: They are sponsoring everything. There are brands sponsoring teams. They're sponsoring players. I always use this analogy with soccer, which is my favorite sport. Or basketball. You as a brand sponsor a team. You can sponsor a player. Let's say Adidas. They are sponsoring soccer players with their shoes or their clothes. You can run ads during a game broadcast. You can place ads on the commercials. It's the same thing on Esports. When you are a sponsor, you can put your money in all of these different fields. That's what we are doing with a couple of companies we're dealing with. They are going to sponsor a team that is huge in Mexico. They won several tournaments all over the world. They are going to sponsor and buy airtime on Twitch, which is the most relevant platform for gaming. They also want to have their own tournament, to be not the sponsors of the tournament – the owners of the tournament. This is how big Esports is becoming these days, Rob. ROB: Wow. When you get into it, it sounds more like sports than you would ever imagine, even all the way down to the equipment. I have a friend who's been running a company for a while called Control Freak, and all they make is add-ons for video game console controllers to make you better at playing Esports. When he first told me, I thought it couldn't possibly be a business, or a good one, but it certainly has been for them. It's a big, big ecommerce business. ALVARO: It's a big, big business. A few months ago, we were writing down a list of everything that is related to Esports, and I think we got like 95 or so different things, from sponsoring a game to mousepads. I'm serious. Mousepads, keyboards, headsets – you name it. There's opportunity for every single industry in this niche. Like I said, it's between $2-3 billion a year on advertising only. You didn't hear that 2 or 5 years ago, right? This is huge right now, Rob. ROB: Wow. I heard it from your mouth, and I believe you. Alvaro, when you look at the time you've been in business, you've got a good bit of experience. What are some things you might do differently if you were starting over today? Not that you would want to do that; I'm sure you've earned what you've earned. ALVARO: We are a full-service agency, so we've got all kinds of services. If I could start over, I would focus on two or three. I can't do it now because most of our clients like us because we give them everything under one roof. I could say now a virtual roof. But we give them a one-stop solution, so it would be really, really hard for us to change that. But if I could do it from scratch, I would say “I want to be the best on this or that service. If you need those other services, we can introduce you to our strategic partner or we can refer you to somebody else, we can work with your agency for this or that service.” That's one of the things that I would change if I could. One of the learnings that I have and I'd like to share with everybody is focus on one or two niches. I know we can do ads for window specialists, we can do random campaigns for dentists, jewelry stores, liquor stores, hotels – at the end of the day, it's so complicated because they are so different. Those industries are very different from each other. Even if you use Google ads for all of them, even if you post on Facebook for all of them, the industries are so different and the audience is different. So, one of the things I always tell my colleagues – even we were talking earlier about my presentations at some universities. One of the things I told one of the guys that was starting his agency at the age of 22, almost the same age I was when I started back in the '90s, is by showing that you know everything and you can do everything, you won't keep a customer. You may seduce the customer. You may sign the customer. But in a 3-6 month period, they're going to realize that you are not good at everything. Or, like in my case, we pay a high price to be good at everything we do – because we are good at branding, at social media, at reputation. The high price is that I have to have very expensive human resources to have the best people on each different department. So, make it simple. Focus on one, maybe two services that are related to each other, and keep it there. You're going to do great. That's what I would do if I could do it again. ROB: Where would you focus today and why? ALVARO: That's a good question. I wasn't ready for this one, Rob. [laughs] I would focus on lead generation through online advertising. I would leave social media – of course, I would use social media as an advertising platform, but I would leave social media content and engagement, reputation, web design, I would leave everything out of the picture if I could. I think this is where I would focus. ROB: What's appealing about those particular areas right now? Is it you know how to find the expertise? Is it opportunity to differentiate in those areas? ALVARO: I think as an agency owner, it's a very good source of income. When you bring your customers solid and qualified leads to their businesses, they pay very well. They don't mind paying. The reason I would do that only is because of the good income that I would get from that. ROB: Got it. So, at this point, you know what the margins are in different lines of business; you know if it's just creative, do people know how to pay more for that? Maybe they don't. But they definitely know how to pay for twice as many leads. ALVARO: Yeah. When you bring value to your customers, they don't mind paying. A very good lead and a qualified lead is value. That's what they need. Out of the restaurant industry, of the few customers that are not in that niche, we work for a company that sells and installs impact windows and doors. They were struggling with three or four different agencies, and the problem was that – yeah, the signs were nice, the website was cool, everything was okay, but they were not getting leads. When they came to us, they said, “Hey, we like everything that we got, but we have zero leads. Nobody calls our phones. What can you guys do?” So, we took over the account. That was almost 4 years ago. We built a strategy for them, and we understood where the problem was. I don't want to go deep into that, but the thing is, we created a strategy, we understood the problem, we did our market research to understand the industry because we were not familiar with that niche, and it's been over 3 years that we are bringing results to these guys. What do I mean by results? Leads. The website is there. It's cool, it's nice. The designs are nice. The content that we put for them on social media is okay. But they are getting the leads they're after. And especially during this pandemic, when everybody was downgrading their budgets, I told them, “Hey, do what I'm doing with my agency. I doubled my advertising budget. You do the same. If it doesn't work out, I don't know how, but I'm going to pay you back.” So, these guys went from around ten grand a month to $22,000 a month, and guess what? It paid off. They had to hire more people to work for them. It really worked. So, lead generation, when it's done in the right way, with a strategy and understanding the market, understanding the culture – because by the way, we did campaigns in Spanish and English. Not only translated from English to Spanish, but talking to people in their language, not doing just a translation. You know what I mean. ROB: Yeah, I get it. ALVARO: It works. When you understand the market and you tell them what they want to hear, and you come, of course, with a good offer, like affordable windows and doors, there's no doubt that it's going to work out. ROB: It probably felt like a disadvantage for a while, but such an advantage now, coming from your own background – you're here and you can find people with an expertise in the American market any day of the week, but to find people with expertise in the Latino market that want to work for someone for the right reasons, you have that credibility naturally. I'm sure it's a hiring advantage. ALVARO: Yeah, it is an advantage, and our customers – I am so thankful that they understand that we are not just a translator. You can use Google Translate. I've seen actually a lot of things in Spanish that were translated with Google Translate or from somebody who speaks Spanish in the office, but it's translating. It's not creating the content in Spanish and for that market. It's a huge advantage, definitely. ROB: Fantastic. Alvaro, when people want to find you and the DM Agency family, where should they go to find you? ALVARO: Very simple. DM, as in digital marketing: dmagency.us. ROB: Excellent. Thank you very much for joining us today and sharing your broad journey and experience across bicultural marketing, Esports, hospitality, and so much more. It's quite a journey. ALVARO: Thank you, Rob. I really appreciate it. I enjoyed it, and I hope we can do this again in the future. ROB: Sounds great. Let's find a good time. I'll catch you soon. Be well. ALVARO: Thank you. ROB: Thank you for listening. The Marketing Agency Leadership Podcast is presented by Converge. Converge helps digital marketing agencies and brands automate their reporting so they can be more profitable, accurate, and responsive. To learn more about how Converge can automate your marketing reporting, email info@convergehq.com, or visit us on the web at convergehq.com.

Erik Huberman is Founder and CEO of Hawke Media, an agency serving as “an outsourced CMO-level expert” which, Eric says, “puts client success ahead of our own.” The agency's “SWOT team” identifies “holes” in a client's marketing program and provides a “comprehensive à la carte menu of services and month-to-month contracts” to address those needs in a timely manner. Month-to-month works, Erik says, because the idea of signing a long-term contract with someone you have just met is like getting married to someone you've never even dated.” When the agency started 6-1/2 years ago, the scope of services was relatively narrow – primarily e-commerce. In short order, Erik added content creation, production work, and web design. Last year, the agency purchased its first affiliate agency. Erik says that it was the -commerce community that built Hawke Media and e-commerce is still 70 percent of the agency's business. Today, customized, data-driven, performance-based solutions facilitate product launch, scaling, and business vitalization for a broad range of industries and business sizes. “Big” companies are responsible for only two percent of the agency's revenues.  Erik says his agency's goal is to expand into 3 to 5 new territories this year. Rather than acquiring agencies or opening offices in new locations, Hawke hires talent in places “of interest.” When things in a particular area “start to open up,” the agency evaluates the kind of space they want . . . and if they want a space. New markets are selected based on market opportunity, cost of living. high concentration of ecommerce brands, SMBs, startup community, and agency saturation. He believes that TikTok, once it scrapes through the political issues, will be “one of the first things since Facebook and Instagram, to be a viable [and quite possibly great] advertising platform.” Erik notes that building community is one of his agency's core values. Hawkefest, an annual summit, has drawn 600 brand owners every year for the past 3 years. Since inception, the agency has sponsored weekly e-commerce Happy Hours, recently started fun bi-weekly Zoom events, and even more recently introduced a trivia night. The agency will partner with the city of LA to hose an e-commerce week starting September 28.  Erik says that one thing he has learned over the years is that hiring and investing ahead of expected growth is “always a mistake.” Reacting to reality makes growth far more sustainable than proactively building for something that might or might not happen. Hiring and training executive talent is more difficult than hiring and training staff. Hawke operates a venture fund that invests in marketing and e-commerce technology and e-commerce brands. E-commerce-related business doubled in Q2 of this year . . . both large businesses and small. Eric sees cellphone SNS (social networking service) marketing as a massive opportunity in the coming months, even more so than email. Erik can be found on his agency's website at https://hawkemedia.com/ or on any social media platform, including TikTok, @ or /ErikHuberman.  ROB: Welcome to the Marketing Agency Leadership Podcast. I'm your host, Rob Kischuk, and I am very excited to be joined today by Erik Huberman, Founder and CEO and Hawke Media based in Santa Monica, California. Welcome to the podcast, Erik. ERIK: Thank you. Thank you for having me. It's good to be here. ROB: Excellent to have you here. I've heard about Hawke Media for years; why don't you tell us about Hawke Media? ERIK: Sure. Started about 6-½ years ago, basically with the idea that great marketing is not accessible. As a business, it is really hard to find great marketing talent, whether to hire in-house or good marketers as agencies. I just got sick of the ecosystem and decided to build a small SWOT team to help the companies I knew needed help – a bunch of people each with their own expertise, like Facebook marketer, email marketer, web designer, fractional CMO, etc. I just created this a la carte, month to month really simple model where we go into a business, identify holes in their marketing, and then spin up those people. The whole idea is making great marketing accessible. ROB: A la carte, month to month is a little bit unusual. A lot of people aspire, especially as they grow and build their business, to get deeper into retainers, to get deeper into packages. How do you handle that degree of flexibility? ERIK: It's a few things. At scale, it's a lot easier because averages play out. We know on average, we're going to keep this many clients, sign this many clients, lose this many clients, etc., so that we can actually staff accordingly. Again, the percentage variability gets a little more evened out. Our people work on multiple companies. Our biggest clients are 2% of our revenue. It allows for a lot of spread-out, so it allows us to actually build a business that is sustainable around doing that. What's nice is our clients actually get the benefit of the efficiency of our employees working on multiple companies, so it allows us to charge less, make it easy, but then we get the benefit of the averages playing out and being able to ebb and flow as companies come and go when they need us. ROB: I feel like I hear a layer of systems-thinking underneath what you're sharing here. You're talking about thinking about average duration, and even when you're talking about sharing staff and clients and being able to spread the work around, there's some knowledge transfer that has to happen. Have you had a natural dispensation towards process? How did you come to the ability to build and hand off a client? A lot of agencies really can't handle that. ERIK: This is my fifth business, so I've done a lot of operations. I wouldn't say I'm necessarily an ops guy. I'm an operator in terms of the traditional sense of the word, but I'm not – honestly, it's 7 years of doing this, almost. Now I know the numbers cold. I manage my business, I care about it, I love it, so all these things have become very clear. In the beginning, it was a lot simpler. When I hired seven people, it was more just “How do I create something sustainable and profitable?” Then you start to see these benefits and you start to be able to scale off these benefits. It's the hindsight thing, where looking backwards, I can tell you why our company succeeded, but in the beginning I was like “This makes sense intuitively,” and it came from me running businesses and hating the way our agencies worked and continuing to have to make changes, and building off of that knowledge. But then a lot of the unforeseen benefits came in too. ROB: What were some of those prior businesses, if I dare ask? What was your journey? ERIK: There was a whole entrepreneurial journey of selling stuff door to door. Got into Beanie Babies when I was 8 years old and made a few thousand bucks. So, there's a lot of history there being an entrepreneur. But the real first business was actually filtering storm drains in California. California passed a law in 2006 that you legally had to filter your storm drain. If you were caught not doing it, you would end up getting I think a $75,000 curb drain fine. It was big. I had a friend that pursued solving that problem and being the one that would actually handle that. I came in as his partner and handled sales and marketing, and we started to scale it. There's a very long story here, but it was that. Then I went into real estate the week before the entire banking industry collapsed, made $350 that year and went, “I've got to figure out something else,” because that's a really rough sustainability in terms of salary, to live in LA on $350 a year. There's no arrows pointing there. So, I started an online music company, built it for 2 years, hired a CEO to take over. We got it to profitability and then I realized it wasn't going to be that big. Then I built and sold two consecutive fashion subscription ecommerce companies. Scaled them really fast, did really well. ROB: I imagine in that ecommerce you had some agency partners that maybe didn't function the way you were hoping they would? ERIK: Yeah. The number one thing, which is why we're so keen on month to month, was the idea of signing a year contract with someone I just met. Like, “Let's get married even though we've never dated.” ROB: In the early days of Hawke Media, how did you even come to the name? What's the significance behind it? What did the early days look like? ERIK: I wish I had a good story for the name. It really was as simple as I was originally going to call it Growth Hacker Group, and I mentioned it to a friend that was a partner of mine, helping me do some media buying, and he's like, “Erik, I just signed with Walmart. You think they'd ever put their name on a contract that says ‘Growth Hacker Group'? Just keep it simple.” I grew up in a small town called Ojai; I loved red-tailed hawks as a kid. Basically, I started looking on GoDaddy at 9 p.m. at night. I still remember sitting there, and I found that Hawk Media without the “e” was taken, but with the “e” wasn't. I was like, “That sounds good. I like that.” Made the website, and we were off to the races. It was that simple. ROB: And now, at least when we actually do go to conferences, your logo, that name – those are things that you see at conferences commonly. Hawke's a meaningful name out in the business world, so congratulations. ERIK: Thank you. And that's something to learn about all names and all brands. It's what you make of them. It doesn't really matter. I've really learned, especially in B2B, just make a name that isn't going to turn anyone off. It should be pretty simple. And then what it turns into is based on how you build your business – your reputation, your consistency. ROB: Did you ever have an inclination to pursue the rebrand, or was that an idea you had disabused yourself of in prior businesses? ERIK: Say that again, sorry? ROB: The name. Did you ever, over the course of the journey, have an inclination towards changing it? Or is it an inclination you shook yourself of in prior businesses and learned that lesson earlier? ERIK: The only thing we've talked about with Hawke Media is dropping the “Media” at times. But no, again, at this point we've made the name what it is and we're happy with what it is, so there's no reason to change it. ROB: Early on, were there any particular lines of business you were deep into? Were you deep into ecommerce from Day 1? Any particular things you said you wouldn't do? Were you not doing SEO or paid social? Or has it been the full board? ERIK: We definitely have scaled our services. We bought an affiliate agency last year; we didn't do it before that. We didn't do much content creation for clients for a while. We didn't do production work. In the very beginning we didn't do web design. That came in pretty quickly. So that's definitely evolved over time. Ecommerce was a big core of our business because that was my background, and in the beginning, it was all arm's reach. Anyone I knew that needed help is who hired us. So, it was mostly the ecommerce community that built us. We're still probably 70% ecommerce because those clients begot other clients, etc., etc., and it just scaled from there. But we're agnostic in what we want to take; just our reputation is massive in ecom. ROB: Certainly, and that probably drives some of where you show up, where you speak, where you market. Not entirely, but a good amount. ERIK: Yeah. That is the core. Again, it's 70%, which I like. I'm happy that we still have the 30% that isn't, and we do a lot of cool stuff in SaaS and brick-and-mortar stuff and even restaurants and gyms and all sorts of stuff that was more affected during this. But a lot of it has been – it's nice to have that diversification, but we've doubled down on e-com, too. We're hosting Ecommerce Week LA with the city of LA as a partner September 28th. ROB: Interesting. Have you done that before? Is this the first year of that event?  ERIK: This is the first year. We've done a summit every year for brand owners called Hawkefest and had about 600 brand owners every year at that, and then we wanted to parlay it into something bigger. I'm the guy that, when we accomplish something, I'm like “Great, what's next?” Hawkefest has gone really well. It's been awesome. We've done it for 3 years, and it was like “What's next?” So, we got the city of LA to sign off on doing a full week of events. We were trying to push it for last year, but we couldn't get it done with the city on time, so now it's this year. Now with what's happening with COVID, we're going virtual with it. But the nice thing about virtual – and we've already thrown some virtual events – is we can have way larger headcount and way bigger pipeline, which means for next year, it becomes a great audience and community to make next year that much bigger. ROB: Right. At that point we may be able to travel, we may be a little bit itchy to travel and maybe come on out to the LA area. ERIK: Exactly. ROB: Especially in the fall. Some of us are looking to get away from where it's getting cold. ERIK: LA's a beautiful place. ROB: Absolutely. As long as you have more than $350 a year to make a living. ERIK: Or at that point a really good max on my credit card. That helps. [laughs] ROB: [laughs] You mentioned it was the third year of Hawkefest. What did the first year of Hawkefest look like that you punched up to get to 600 people? What made you feel like it was something that you needed to pursue? ERIK: It was pretty big the first year. I think it was 300 the first year. It wasn't like some massive jump. We could afford more, so we spent more to give more room for people. We capped it out. That was 3 years into business, the first one. We knew we had a community around us, I had connections, etc., that we could pull it off. It was something I wanted to do from the beginning. We've hosted Ecommerce Happy Hours since before I started Hawke Media, and now we're hosting what we call NightHawke, which is biweekly Zoom fun events. Tomorrow night we're doing a trivia night. So, we do stuff like that. Build community is one of our core values. That has always been a big part of what we're doing. Once I started to see the momentum, I realized basically at the end of Year 2, “Hey, now we're at a point where financially we can take the risk. We have enough partners and sponsors we could probably bring in. I feel confident I can bring in the speakers people want to see and we can get it out to an audience. Let's go for throwing our big summit.” It was something I had in mind for a long time and then pulled it off. And then once we did and felt comfortable with it, then we started making it an annual thing, so then we had it for 3 years. We were going to have a fourth one this year; the idea was it was going to be the capstone of Ecommerce Week. But with COVID, we decided to literally just not have that piece. We don't need to have a virtual Hawkefest. We can just have Ecom Week. ROB: Seems like you're always thinking one step of what's been done and one step of what's next. What are we looking to see in Hawke Media in the next couple of years? I get the impression you might know where you're driving with it. ERIK: Oh yeah, 100%. It's shifted, and it's still shifting because of, again, the change in the world. But we wanted to expand into three to five new territories this year. We have a list, which is Dallas, Miami, Chicago, San Francisco, and Boise. They're places we wanted to open up this year. We already have New York, Boston, and LA. Originally it was, “Let's look at maybe acquiring a couple agencies or opening offices in those places.” Acquiring is harder because it's harder to meet these agencies. Opening offices makes no sense. But hiring in those places now really does, so we've actually made hires in Atlanta, Miami, Dallas, and Chicago already, and we're interviewing someone in Boise right now. San Francisco we haven't touched yet, but the rest are starting to move. We're just doing it backwards. We're actually making the hires first, and then when things start to open up, we can assess what kind of space we want, if we want any in those territories. So, we've started to execute on that. Our M&A is ramping back up. Just got off a call before this with a company we're looking to maybe acquire. So, we have quite a pipeline there. Hired someone new to build out that corporate development arm of our business. Our venture fund has performed incredibly well because we're invested mostly in marketing and ecommerce technology along with ecommerce brands – which if anyone's paying attention, doubled in Q2 this year because that's where the most benefit came from with this. And that includes Shopify doubling, not just Amazon. Small businesses doubled too. We're just seeing a lot of success on that side too. So that's the gist, along with I'd say the biggest new challenge, which is: how do you create nuance and camaraderie amongst a team when they don't get to hang out by the coffee machine or in the lunchroom? That's something we're working through. We're going to be hiring a new Head of People and HR and trying to think through how to build a really tightknit remote team. ROB: It seems like some of the things you're doing for fun with the NightHawke sort of events – it seems like there's almost a virtuous cycle between the stuff you're going to do to build a good remote team and the stuff that's going to be good for a broader community. You could do a trivia internally or externally, and it probably transfers well. ERIK: That's 100% right. We include our own employees in our events, so there is overlap. Community is community. Our internal people, external, etc., we try to open it up to everyone. But yeah, exactly. That's part of it, but the one thing that's hardest to replicate that we're still thinking through is, how do I create that nuance where two random people that don't work on the same team meet each other at lunch and then end up going out for drinks, being friends? The amount of people that become best friends or roommates, etc., through Hawke Media – even couples – is something I value. The fact that people can actually meet – if you survey our team – and we just did this, and I got a lot of the feedback yesterday. We asked all the good and bad, like “Be blunt with us; what do you love, what do you hate?” Number one thing everyone says is they love the people around them. We've got to keep that. That is critical for our business. ROB: Yeah. What do you do? ERIK: I work on it. [laughs] That's the fun thing. I'm interviewing for Heads of HR. It's my main question to them. It's a hard one. I've talked to people with 15-20 years of solid HR experience at great companies, and it's like, “Uh, happy hours on Zoom on Fridays?” Like, sorry, no. I mean, it's fun to have now and then, but that doesn't really do it. That gets the 15 people that like to drink and like each other already to hang out. That doesn't get the people that would've never met each other to actually do it. So, creating that – we have something called Donuts that automatically pairs two people a week to grab coffee. Someone random every week, or someone you already know. A lot of times it's people you already know. That's been fun, but we've made it optional. I'm almost ready to make it mandatory so that people just have to meet someone every week. Those are the kinds of things we're – again, it's not easy. ROB: You had to already be thinking about this, though, because you were looking at these new markets. You already were operating on a predicate of being even more distributed than you already were. I'm curious, though; what was your process in selecting the new cities that you're going into? ERIK: It was mostly market opportunity. Five of them out of the six new ones are basically the Top 5 cities where we already have business. They have the highest concentration of ecommerce brands, SMBs, startup community, etc. Most opportunity, along with – it's also measured against the agency saturation. There were a lot of cities that had similar opportunities, like Denver, that may have a lot of marketing agencies. It's just going to be too competitive for the market share. We did a whole analysis over a bunch of different – and also we were looking at cost of living. Like, are these places where we can actually build teams in a little more cost-effective way? And then Boise came up because actually my COO moved to Boise 2 years ago – I think it's been a little over 2 years – and has been commuting in to the office from Boise every week, in LA. Obviously with COVID, is not, and we're probably not going to be asking that again in terms of full-time. So that's always been a desire. Boise is a much cheaper place to hire, it's got great talent and probably a lot more loyalty. LA and New York are tough because our employees literally get emailed every day to get poached. So, we have to work really, really, really hard to keep them, and still it's almost a futile effort a lot of the times because you've got Google and Facebook offering four times their salary sometimes. So yeah, part of it is just diversifying. That's really good too. But mostly it was the market opportunity. We know that our clients like working with a local partner. ROB: Right. It is clever with places like Boise, where you're college-adjacent but you're not a college town, so you can make really high quality talent hires and keep them somewhere they like to be, but it's not just a stone-cold college town where there's no business there to be earned. ERIK: Yep. ROB: Makes a ton of sense. Erik, when we look back at the journey so far, 6 years or so with Hawke Media, what are some lessons you've learned along the way you might do differently if you were starting over today? ERIK: I'd say probably the most mistakes I made had to do around a few things. One is we learned hiring ahead of growth and investing ahead of growth, assuming growth is coming, is always a mistake. Things happen, things change. It's never what you predicted. So being more reactive than proactive in all the ways we build out our business has always been a much more sustainable way. It causes little pain points because sometimes you grow too fast and you've got to deal with a lot of stress, but that's better than not growing fast enough and being overstaffed, overleveraged, etc. That's been a big lesson that thankfully we got through, but that caused a lot of stress at times when we tried to double and we only grew 60%. That becomes a problem. Funny enough, growing 60% is still a huge win, unless you spent money like you were going to grow 100%. That's one thing I learned. Also, when hiring executives and building out executive teams, a lot of people think it's going to be – and including I used to – when you hire an executive, they take that thing off your plate. So, if I'm going to hire a Head of HR, now HR is handled. That takes a year plus, and you've got to be hyper-collaborative and working very directly with it during that time. That's been the other thing that's really helped at this point scale: spending a lot of time with our executives on how I want to see the business run so that they get up to speed and start to think similarly so they really, truly can run that piece the way we want it run. ROB: You're typically probably hiring people you have measured to be fairly capable. If someone's expecting, does it take longer to get an executive performing the way you want or a staff? ERIK: Oh, executive by far. There's just so much more nuance. People are the same. I get that there's people that are smarter and dumber, etc., but we hire smart people across the board. So, it's not an aptitude thing. A lot of times experience helps them do certain things, but there's so many moving parts for an executive that they have to pull into and understand all the nuances of the business. It just takes a lot longer to get those nuances so that in their quick decision-making, it starts to take account of the nuances they've been now accustomed to. It takes time because there isn't – our business in a lot of ways is unique. We do things differently. Most businesses do certain things differently, so they have to get ingrained with that nuance before they can really be productive. ROB: It's interesting what you say there. I think we all get happy hiring hands sometimes when we're excited about growth. We see it coming, but it's not quite there. But how do you know – it sounds like you hire at that point where it's almost too late, and I mean that in the best way. ERIK: That's correct, yeah. And every once in a while it is too late, in a sense, and it causes our team to work harder than they really want to or should. I've been very clear with our team that that's going to happen sometimes. That is part of the job. There will be times, like most agencies and consultancies and service businesses and any business, where you have to put in 60-hour weeks. That exists. Then we'll right-size and we'll get you back to normal hours, and then it'll happen again. It's kind of an ebb and flow. Unlike investment banking, we're not making people work 100+ hours a week all the time. But we definitely have ebbs and flows where there's some hard periods.  ROB: Is there a measurable you're able to use to figure that out? Is it a number of hours billable? Is it a utilization rate? ERIK: Exactly. We look at utilization and we look at our people, and how many clients they're managing and what the average time spent on a client is overall. At this point we've been doing this long enough, we have a lot of averages, so we can give an idea of like, “That person's fully loaded, that person's way overloaded,” etc. Again, we have enough size now that we should be able to never overload someone more than 10%, meaning going from 40 to 45 hours a week. When it gets more than that, it's usually either a perfect storm of a ton of sales and maybe someone leaving or something that is painful. But generally we're okay there. ROB: That definitely makes sense. I think it's hard sometimes for people to imagine – when you are at let's say 10 people, they're not even all interchangeable functionally, so you may have some roles that are overlapped only by two or three people. So, you're trying to figure out these huge step functions of “How do I increase my capacity here by 50% and when do I pull the trigger on that one?” Although I imagine in a lot of those cases, and maybe for you, that's also the founders eating some of the pain. ERIK: Exactly. Everybody has to jump in sometimes, so the pain gets spread out too. [laughs] ROB: Interesting. Of the different marketing channels that you're involved in, what has been bumping up as a good opportunity? What's been attenuating? And maybe an upcoming opportunity that we don't realize yet? ERIK: I'd say SNS marketing is a massive one. We're seeing crazy performance there, and I think that'll continue, especially as things open back up, because getting people on their cellphone and texting when they're out and about is a great way to reach people versus email. Email's still powerful, to be clear, but I think SNS will also be a great platform. I think TikTok, if you can get through the political stuff, is still – it's one of the first things since Facebook and Instagram that looks like a very viable advertising platform. I hope Snapchat figures it out, but it's still not as great. Twitter is not really great, YouTube is not really great. But I think TikTok will end up being a great platform. ROB: Do you think Microsoft can manage to not mess it up if they do buy it? ERIK: They did a great job with LinkedIn. They did a terrible job with Skype. [laughs] It just depends on how they manage it. If they keep it separate and let it go – I know a lot of the senior team at TikTok in the U.S. I think there's a great team there. There's an opportunity there, and I think Microsoft's way of M&A has gotten better. ROB: Sure. They've done a good job with GitHub as well. They really have chilled out on a lot of things they maybe used to goof up. TikTok, I imagine, has pretty strong alignment with where you are geographically. ERIK: Yeah. They also have offices in New York, but yeah. I think they've created something that's a very passive user experience. Once they build out their advertising platform better – again, ignoring the political side of this – I think the way people use it is going to be a really powerful ad platform. We're one of the first official partners to TikTok, agency-wise. ROB: What does that mean? ERIK: We've got a full-time team there that's working with us on everything we need to do to make the platform better and utilize it correctly, and if we have any needs to perform, basically. Same thing we have with Facebook and Google. We have full-time teams, we're on the Slack, etc., so we can make sure campaigns are run with best practices. We can have them double down with us. It's a true partnership in that sense. ROB: That's a real asset. What is your engagement with legacy media? You've got “Media” in your name, and some folks with media, it means very, very new media; some people, it only means very, very old media. What's your engagement with out-of-home and video?  ERIK: We utilize it all. TV, radio, out-of-home. We usually start with digital because it's a lot more iterative and we can actually test a lot better, but as our clients scale, we start leveraging all those other things too. We have great teams around more traditional media channels. And it works. It's different, and there's different ways to use all of them in a full marketing sense. ROB: I think what I heard in there is one of the things you may do is actually iterate on messaging in digital formats before amplifying it out to more analog. What's an example of maybe a campaign you can talk about where you figured that out? Maybe something a little bit unexpected in the digital domain. ERIK: Honestly, off the cuff, I have a hard time trying to think of where there was an “aha” moment. It's not like “Oh my God,” this epiphany like “That works way better. We should do that.” It was more like “Let's test these 10 messages. Okay, that's the message that's working really well on Facebook, but scale that a little bit. Okay, this value proposition has always performed the best. Let's use that value proposition on the billboards we're going to go buy.”  ROB: You're a tremendously sensible yet ambitious man. It's a fun thing to hear. It's all very matter-of-fact, “Yeah, we do it this way.” It's not so clever; it's just you almost seem to get out of your way by not trying to be too clever. ERIK: Yeah. We've had problems trying to work with big creative agencies that have these robust creative ideas. We're like, “Cool, but in practicality that means absolutely nothing and it's not going to drive any business. But it looks really pretty.” [laughs] We care about growth. We care about the company's goal, which is usually revenue and profit growth. That's what we're driving towards. ROB: On the ecommerce side, are you able to get everything dialed in enough to actually be able to tell them return on ad spend metrics and that sort of thing? ERIK: Oh yeah. We even like to talk more CAC to LTV because return on ad spend is super misleading if you have any kind of recurring business, and if you don't, that's a really hard digital business anyways. So yeah, we like to really give guidance into the real numbers versus – ROA ads is a very deep metric, and a lot of times it's misreported because they're not tracking long enough because the purchase cycle of a company, usually people forget. So, they'll spend ads today and look at ROA ads tomorrow. They completely forget that people take time to buy something from seeing an ad. It isn't instant. 95% of the time, it's not an instant purchase, so you're missing out on most of your returns if you look at marketing that way. That's the issue. That's not the way to look at it. ROB: It's interesting to hear that CAC to LTV mention, this customer acquisition cost to lifetime value. That kind of bleeds over into the startup and SaaS world. I know you're in the startup world as well with your venture arm. I think I saw you had somebody from Upfront speaking maybe last year at Hawkefest. Did that metric start more in the ecommerce side or more in the software side? How did it bleed over? ERIK: That comes from the ecommerce company I ran before. We were always CAC to LTV. That's a ratio that's mattered for a long time. Thankfully it's getting more and more prominent. Dollar Shave Club is a good example of this. Again, I worked at the incubator with them, and from what I've heard, their CAC was like $20 bucks and their average order value was $5. If you looked at their ROA ads, it was 25%. Like, that's terrible. But their lifetime value – I don't know what it was, but let's say it was 18 months. That would actually turn that $5 into $90. 20 to 90 is decent as long as you have the working capital to get through that. It's those kind of things – and it does matter. Also, knowing that payback period is super important too because you have to finance through it. So, there's all sorts of nuance there. Yeah, running a business is more complicated than just a return on ad spend, which is why you see all these guys that are posting on Facebook about their 50x return on ad spend that they're driving for companies and never seem to actually make any money. Because it's B.S. [laughs] ROB: [laughs] Perfect. That makes a ton of sense, especially with the subscription model. But I imagine as we go deeper and deeper into ecommerce, a lot of non-subscription businesses have become significantly more predictable and recurring. Have you seen something like let's say a Columbia Sportswear become almost like a subscription, even though it's not? ERIK: Not subscription in the sense that they're forcing people to buy on a certain regular cadence. It's more thinking about lifetime value, like “How do I get them to come back and buy more?” Managing your existing customer base and getting them to upsell and buy more is much cheaper than getting new customers and much more lucrative. Assuming you have a decent product that people like, it's way easier to get those customers to continue to buy. ROB: Perfectly sensible. Erik, when people want to find you and Hawke Media, where should they go to find you? ERIK: Any social media platform, @ or /ErikHuberman. Even TikTok. [laughs] ROB: [laughs] And what we will we find on your TikTok? ERIK: One video, I was sent a sweat suit by – what's Josh's last name? One of the biggest TikTokers. He just moved to Triller, too, because of all this stuff. Josh Richards, I think is his name. He's got like 20 million followers. He sent me a sweat suit. I had to wear it and make a TikTok video because it just felt like the right thing to do. It's me sliding in with the sweat suit on. It's important. [laughs] ROB: [laughs] Perfect. Erik Huberman of Hawke Media, thank you for coming on the podcast. Congratulations on everything you've done and everything you're doing. We'll look for your people in all these new American cities. ERIK: I appreciate it. Thank you for having me. ROB: Be well. ERIK: You too. ROB: Thank you for listening. The Marketing Agency Leadership Podcast is presented by Converge. Converge helps digital marketing agencies and brands automate their reporting so they can be more profitable, accurate, and responsive. To learn more about how Converge can automate your marketing reporting, email info@convergehq.com, or visit us on the web at convergehq.com.

Deeper Dive Theme: JWald, Dawn and Rob discuss how to instill morals in children, the dangers of unlimited phone plans for kids and preparing them for eternity. We also learn why Rob is smuggling mangoes. Episode Title: Will They be Ready to Stand?   Hosts: JWald & Dawn Williams Guest: Robert Stevenson Key text: https://www.bible.com/bible/59/DAN.1.8.esv Notes: http://bible.com/events/28049047 Subscribe for YouTube Videos: http://www.youtube.com/c/PlantationSDAChurchTV   Current Event RoundTable: How is Sawgrass going to be holding school during the 2020/2021 school year? Dawn and JWald's Deeper Dive Questions to Rob: What is the basis for your sermon and what is based on? Compare/contrast old school and new school values? How can you instill values in older kids? What do you tell a parent who's tired of trying to instill values in kids? Why are we slaves to lending institutions? What is a post-christian country and why do you consider the US post-christian? Why do you consider it dangerous to give a child a phone with an unlimited data plan? Is porn more dangerous now that it is easier to access? How can we keep our children safe on the Internet? What is a helicopter mom? How does diet affect kids ability to learn? What are the risks of kids drinking coffee? Date: August 1, 2020 Tags: #psdapodcast #psdatv #education #Daniel #christian #children #technology #gaming #food #media #youth #generation #sas #pressure #time #SawgrassAdventistSchool For more information on Plantation SDA Church, please visit us at http://www.plantationsda.tv.   Church Copyright License (CCLI) License Number: 1659090 CCLI Stream License License Number: CSPL079645 Support the show: https://adventistgiving.org/#/org/ANTBMV/envelope/start See omnystudio.com/policies/listener for privacy information.

Deeper Dive Theme: JWald, Dawn and Rob discuss how to instill morals in children, the dangers of unlimited phone plans for kids and preparing them for eternity. We also learn why Rob is smuggling mangoes. Episode Title: Will They be Ready to Stand?   Hosts: JWald & Dawn Williams Guest: Robert Stevenson Key text: https://www.bible.com/bible/59/DAN.1.8.esv Notes: http://bible.com/events/28049047 Subscribe for YouTube Videos: http://www.youtube.com/c/PlantationSDAChurchTV   Current Event RoundTable: How is Sawgrass going to be holding school during the 2020/2021 school year? Dawn and JWald's Deeper Dive Questions to Rob: What is the basis for your sermon and what is based on? Compare/contrast old school and new school values? How can you instill values in older kids? What do you tell a parent who's tired of trying to instill values in kids? Why are we slaves to lending institutions? What is a post-christian country and why do you consider the US post-christian? Why do you consider it dangerous to give a child a phone with an unlimited data plan? Is porn more dangerous now that it is easier to access? How can we keep our children safe on the Internet? What is a helicopter mom? How does diet affect kids ability to learn? What are the risks of kids drinking coffee? Date: August 1, 2020 Tags: #psdapodcast #psdatv #education #Daniel #christian #children #technology #gaming #food #media #youth #generation #sas #pressure #time #SawgrassAdventistSchool For more information on Plantation SDA Church, please visit us at http://www.plantationsda.tv.   Church Copyright License (CCLI) License Number: 1659090 CCLI Stream License License Number: CSPL079645 Support the show: https://adventistgiving.org/#/org/ANTBMV/envelope/start See omnystudio.com/policies/listener for privacy information.

Alana Sandel, Chief Experience Officer of the agency, Marketing for Wellness, has a deep passion for helping people “to be well.” Her personal health struggles inspired her to create her agency, which focuses on quality of life, healthy foods, and fitness. “better-for-you products” – “to build brands for a better tomorrow” – especially brands with solutions for people with chronic health problems.  Alana notes that 60% of our population suffers from chronic health issues. COVID-19 is dangerous, but even more of a threat to people with diabetes, asthma, cardiovascular diseases, and other ongoing health issues.  Marketing for Wellness works to link “best fit” social media influencers with client brands. Media events have been crippled by the pandemic, so the agency is exploring virtual and augmented reality options (for education and entertainment) to replicate the experiences audiences used to have with high-touch media events, where such events balanced digital-touch social. Alana anticipates an unprecedented expansion of companies' use of augmented reality and virtual reality technologies to create meaningful experiences for their prospective clients.  Alana believes that the companies that survive will be led by people whose work “resonates to the core,” drives them, and feeds their passion. With the strain of the times, a lot of talent will become more affordable. People will develop common goals to help each other through this crisis. Companies not prepared to go digital will need to act quickly if they are going to survive. And right now, Alana notes, there are some great deals in both digital and traditional format channels. Today, people's immune systems are the only protection they have against COVID. When will we get a vaccine? When will we have a treatment? How is this virus going to change? What other viruses are going to plague us? When? Alana emphasizes, “The only thing that we can rely on is our immune system.” Many niche brands, Alana says, are developed in people's garages or kitchens, out of inspiration or desperation. Because these small-time innovators understand their customers' “pain points,” their brands come across as being “authentic.” She expects to see a lot of innovative product development, both in foods and beverages, with a strong shift toward healthier ingredients. For the future, Alana expects brands already in foods, beverages, and wellness will expand their offerings in support of our immune systems. Companies not in those industries may support their communities by investing in health and wellness initiatives. Smaller brands will increase their corporate citizenship contributions and make a tangible difference to society through the products they create.  A lot of people will continue to support their wellness experience digitally, but Alana does not put her trust in health gadgets. Devices may measure some vitals, but the most accurate and complete picture of an individual's health is in the bloodwork. Simplicity – eating better, thinking of food as medicine, eliminating toxins and artificial ingredients from our diets, and “moving more” are the way to win health, even without the gadgets. Alana can be found on LinkedIn at Alana Sandel, and on her agency's website at: marketingforwellness.com. Transcript Follows: ROB: Welcome to the Marketing Agency Leadership Podcast. I'm your host, Rob Kischuk, and I'm joined today by Alana Sandel, Chief Experience Officer at Marketing for Wellness based in Chicago, Illinois. Welcome to the podcast, Alana. ALANA: Thank you, Rob. Happy to be here. ROB: Fantastic to have you here. Alana, why don't you start off by telling us about Marketing for Wellness and what makes Marketing for Wellness amazing? ALANA: Marketing for Wellness is designed to help better-for-you brands to succeed in the marketplace. What makes us amazing is really our deep passion to help people to be well. Whatever we do now is really built around health and wellness and how we can help build brands that have the next amazing, great-tasting product that's gluten-free and dairy-free, or a fitness company that can get people moving and get them excited about living their life to the fullest. How can we make them successful? It's really about our passion, our values, and about an outstanding team of professionals who put their best to help many brands out there who need a voice, who need their stories to be told. ROB: There's certainly been an explosion of these better-for-you products. What do you think has created that opening and that opportunity? And how do you think about some of the challenges, because there's almost so many that it's hard to break through the noise? ALANA: What created this huge demand is a new generation of more mindful people who appreciate the fact that wellness is the new currency. People are much more conscious about the choices they make, about where their attention goes. I think we're dealing with a new generation that looks at our Baby Boomers and ask themselves the question, “How can I have a better quality of life?” I think this is one of the areas where we see a lot of demand. In terms of challenges, how you break through the clutter, I believe if your product is truly great and you have a wonderful story to tell – and especially if it comes from your experience, because a lot of those niche brands were created in a garage, in a kitchen. They came from either a point of inspiration or being desperate. [laughs] They really understand pain points. Usually these smaller, authentic brands really get their audience and they're able to get noticed. I think it all boils down to what you're really good at. ROB: At the onset, you alluded to, in your introduction, the food category and I think fitness as well as some categories. Are those maybe some of the hotter areas for this better-for-you movement? ALANA: Absolutely. These are our basic needs. Food is medicine, and I think a lot of people are starting to appreciate that fact. We're looking at food differently, and we're reading the ingredients. We're getting ourselves educated. Because of social media, things are going quite all right now. If you have a great product, people will endorse you, they will embrace you. If your product sucks and you're not being true to your claims, it will also become pretty transparent relatively quickly. When it comes to fitness, movement is life. If you are not out there, if you're not taking the time to invest into your wellness and not giving yourself time to take a class or go for a walk or just do breathing exercises, your body is not going to be happy. So, food and fitness are definitely two big pillars that people are paying attention to and taking better steps than we used to in the past. ROB: What marketing channels are you most often involved in? What are the key avenues to get the word out on a brand that probably can't do everything? ALANA: I think it's obvious now that social media is one of the most important channels, especially working with social media influencers. Our agency has spent a lot of time to create valuable partnerships, working with social media influencers directly or through talent agencies. It's really an art to find the best fit between the influencer and the brand to make sure there is really an authentic relationship where it doesn't feel forced or staged. Many influencers actually don't want that. They're looking for brands that they can represent with passion and brands that align with their values. Social media is basically a space that we embrace, that we enjoy working with, and this is where a lot of our work is done now. But obviously there are other avenues with digital marketing, and most recently I have to say, because we can't do media events like we used to – we really appreciated the balance it could create between high touch during the events and digital touch social. We're exploring options with augmented reality right now, AR and VR, and how we can replicate experiences for people to connect with brands around entertainment and education. ROB: That's a very salient trend. Some places are opening up, but to a large extent a lot of people still aren't going out. They're certainly not getting together for events in the wake of this global pandemic around COVID-19. Are you also finding perhaps some amplification opportunities that were less appealing before? You've got these influencers, and at least what we're hearing sometimes is that some channels are opening up for paid media in ways where you used to have to spend a little bit more money to get the same message out. ALANA: Rob, clarify your question for me. ROB: Have you seen any opportunities open up because maybe the cost for certain ad channels is lower because some retailers aren't advertising, some movies aren't advertising, so you can get let's say an impression rate or a click rate or something that's lower than it used to be? ALANA: Oh, absolutely. In the last I want to say 5 to 6 weeks, we've seen a lot of great deals on different channels. Both I would say in digital and traditional formats. Yeah, I agree with you on that. ROB: That makes sense. Alana, tell us a little bit about how you got into this Marketing for Wellness. The business is a little bit newer, but your industry experience is quite extensive. What shifted your attention in this direction? ALANA: When I started with my own journey back in 2001, I always had a commitment to myself that I'm not going to compromise on what I believe in. Early on, pretty much as a team, we primarily went after brands that we knew improved quality of life, but it was really a mix of organizations, from food companies to financial services companies and not-for-profits. Last year, I realized that I really want to polish my focus on working with brands that can make a special difference for people with chronic health conditions, because I think with 60% of our population having chronic health issues and with COVID-19 putting a lot of these people in a very vulnerable spot, I think those people that have diabetes, asthma, cardiovascular diseases, and others need a lot more support today perhaps than before, especially when it comes to food and beverage companies. So, Marketing for Wellness is designed to build brands for a better tomorrow, and we're focused on quality of life, but our special attention now goes to those brands that have a solution for people with chronic health issues. ROB: It almost seems like this was a little bit of a reboot, that you had built this career and you had built a firm that could do more things, and you felt the desire and saw the need to go focus in a little bit more. Is that part of the journey? ALANA: That's right. This is under my skin. This is something that I'm vested in personally because it's part of my personal wellness journey and the struggles that I faced. I know there are a lot of people out there with pain points that have not been addressed. Obviously, there are medications and there are a lot of health options, but at the end of the day what's important is what you do every day and how you invest in yourself. What type of food you eat, how you exercise, how you develop yourself from within, how you make your life meaningful, how you look for purpose – this is all interconnected. It's all one big holistic picture that creates wellbeing for people. But for those with chronic health conditions, it's a lot more challenging. It's a lot more painful. It's a lot more expensive. I'm really embracing those brands that have great products to help those people manage life much better. ROB: You can definitely hear the resonance between this business and your own personal journey. I couldn't help but think as you were talking earlier about influencers, and now about some of these different conditions, it almost seems like a very good intersection where there could even be brands that would pay some influencer more to advocate on their behalf – but someone who self-identifies with a particular health concern, a particular need, may just be so grateful to find a product that helps them, whether they're dealing with celiac or lactose intolerance or whatever, that they might choose your clients over a lot of other options. Is that part of the dynamic? You get to resonate also with your influencers? ALANA: Absolutely. I'll give you one example. I have the privilege to support Lively Foods. They are a manufacturer of a kefir beverage. It's a probiotic drink that is rich with good bacteria that loves your gut. It's especially important now because most of the health of our immune system sits in our gut. About 70% is there. So, taking care of our digestive health is critical. Lively Foods is so loved by those people who appreciate how good this product is for their lives, both for adults and kids, that they're extremely popular with influencers, going beyond food. You can see it on Lively Foods' Instagram channel, classes that range from fitness to mental and emotional health. Influencers are drawn to this brand, knowing that this is one of the best choices you can make on a daily basis to keep yourself strong and resilient by taking care of your gut. So yeah, this is exactly right, Rob. ROB: That definitely makes sense. I can't help but notice when you talk about originally launching a business in 2001 – many would say that was not the best timing. Many would say that this year is not the best timing. Of course, 2001, we had 9/11 and the dot-com bust. Along the way, you also kept in business through the Great Recession as well. What are you seeing, knowing that we're probably heading into recession now – or maybe we will have an amazing recovery, as the stock market seems to believe – but knowing that we may be into a leaner time, what have you learned, at least the past couple of rounds of downturn that you have been in business through, that you're thinking about as we look forward? ALANA: Great question. Here's my big idea. I believe if you are doing something that resonates with your core, something that drives you, something that you're passionate about, you're going to make it. You're going to be resilient, and you're going to find ways to sustain your business and yourself and your family. It's not going to be easy in the next couple of years, but there's going to be a lot of talent available that perhaps before were a little bit pricy for small to mid-size brands to tap into. There's going to be a lot of I would say common goals to help us through this crisis and find better solutions, so people are going to be drawn to ideas, and those people who have tools and solutions that can actually help us. So, I think we're going to see a positive transformation where people are really working together on projects that inspire them and connect them to their better selves, and this will give us strength and resilience. We're going to see a lot of great ideas. We already do. I believe it's not going to be easy, but at the same time, we're going to tap into some areas within ourselves that are going to give us that superpower. ROB: Right. This is the time where the tourists in the industry might go away, the folks who could stick around when you could just throw a stick and find someone who needed some help with digital advertising. Those types might be on break for a little bit. People need thoughtful performance, and they need someone who's going to adapt and find those opportunities. It sounds like you are on that journey. ALANA: I believe I am, yes. ROB: If we widen the aperture a little bit, Alana, having been in the industry for quite a while and having been a business leader, a business owner, what are some things you would do differently if you were – I mean, you are starting over from scratch, so maybe it's more interesting to say what are you doing differently this time that you left behind when you left your previous business? ALANA: Happy to share. One of the things that I wish I did from Day 1 is finding a mentor or mentors. For me, when I found my mentor, Ted Pincus, he was a financial PR pioneer. Unfortunately, he passed away. He made a world of difference within my life. Within the short time that I knew him, he led me to some really important decisions that I'd make. Because of his guidance, I joined an executive management course at Kellogg Business School. I revisited how I managed the business and how I looked at priorities. I would encourage everyone, no matter where you are in your professional development, whether you work for a small business or a Fortune 5000 organization, I think having the right mentor by your side, who can listen, who can reflect, who can give you guidance, is the most important step you can take towards your success. ROB: That process of finding and then also recruiting a mentor can be a little bit intimidating. In other words, some people would say that going up to ask someone to be your mentor is a lot like walking up to a stranger and asking them to marry you. How do you think about that process of, number one, finding someone who's resonant and isn't just somebody who seems important, and number two, building that relationship to the point where it's not such a weird question, perhaps, to ask for a mentor? ALANA: I think there are a number of options. My path to finding Ted Pincus, my mentor, was through another private organization where I reached out to some of the people I knew and I said, “I'm looking for help. I need guidance.” Once people got to know me, they said, “You should talk with Ted and see if he could help you.” Then Ted led me to another person who I greatly respect, Lloyd Shefsky, who was also a part of the Kellogg School, who led me to other ideas and opportunities. So, it's kind of a chain reaction. You talk to people, you connect with people, and you find the right person. I see many universities now, their alumni programs, offering that as an option, or there are now online portals where you can go in and look for a mentor or make yourself available to mentor someone. I think it takes a conversation. It takes creativity, how you reach out to people. If you set an intention and you're clear on who you need in your life now, I think you'll find the right solution as long as you're creative and resourceful. ROB: Which is all part of success anyhow. I did want to poke in on one thing you said there. You initially said you didn't say, “I need a mentor”; you said, “I need help.” First of all, asking for help is a tremendously powerful thing, and it's also a much lower commitment. How soon into that relationship did you feel like it was going to be a long-term one? ALANA: I knew right away. Ted understood me. He immediately responded to some of the issues that I had, and he really lent constructive support on many levels. This relationship was meant to be, so I was really fortunate to find Ted. ROB: That's great. You also mentioned there was a geographic resonance with Northwestern – around Chicago. People do have that affinity around their school that makes them more likely to help, I think. So that all makes plenty of sense there. For those of us who are not as deep in the wellness industry – I think a lot of us know the lactose, gluten – what are some surprising categories of product that you see coming up? Maybe some new client categories or just the digital marketing world making the universe smaller for people to find exactly what they need? ALANA: One of the things that I see coming, which makes me really excited – again, I'm going to use the example of food and beverage because I think this is going to be one of the biggest areas where we're going to see change – is innovation around ingredients, what companies are putting in our food now. There are a lot of breakthroughs around alternatives to sugar. In fact, my team a few years back was working with an organization, Tate & Lyle, as they were branded a sugar alternative, which was monk fruit. We were engaged in this process, which I was really passionate about. I think we're going to see a lot of innovation from a product development standpoint, both in food and beverage. Also, I see a lot of digital innovation of how people experience wellness. With COVID, there are a lot of restrictions. Before, you could go into a yoga studio and take a class with 30 people in a really tight setup; now, that capacity is probably going to be cut in half and classes are going to become more expensive. So, we're going to see a lot of people continuing their experience digitally in terms of how they're going to support their wellness. Another thing that I see, and actually I'm a part of, is I believe we're going to see a lot of smaller brands creating contribution to the society at large, not just bigger brands. For example, my firm recently launched a project for wellbeing, which is a not-for-profit initiative. We are developing a platform where we make it much easier for people to practice wellbeing. It's not only about employees; it's also about the wellbeing of employees' families and loved ones. So, we're actually investing resources to build a platform that can create more wellbeing and wellness. I think we're going to see more projects like that coming from smaller organizations. Fortune 5000 companies have practiced corporate citizenship for a while, but smaller companies don't have as many resources. But now, with the transformation we're seeing, I believe a lot of people will be driven to make an impact and make a contribution and to make it tangible so people can really feel the difference of their efforts. ROB: A lot of that can line up with these brands also owning their own platforms. I know I've seen some things. What have you seen in terms of shifts around smaller brands and ecommerce, perhaps, in this season? ALANA: Oh, my goodness. I think those companies that were not prepared for digital transformation had to wake up and get their act together really quickly. If you are not prepared to sell your product online –whether on Amazon, on Etsy, or maintaining your independent platform, or a combination of all – you're going to have a really difficult time sustaining business. I saw a lot of companies, overnight, getting an online makeover in terms of getting their ecommerce act together, which was very impressive. And I'm not surprised, because we have a lot of tools and technologies. You can build a website overnight. If you know what you stand for and what you want to say, you can do that. We built the For Wellbeing platform in 5 weeks, and it has thousands of resources. Technology creates opportunities right now for people who get it done quickly. ROB: The toolsets are certainly remarkable, between some of your lightweight website things, your Wixes, your Webflows, your Squarespaces, but even into – a friend of mine runs a company that has been in the grocery space. They're in technology for grocery gig economy work, and a lot of that went away, and they very quickly stood up not just an online store, but a multi-vendor online store. They're a mini Amazon that lets all their different clients sell food products online, and they did it so quickly. It would've taken months and months, if not over a year, to do this in different areas, and now a Shopify store – I think there's a reason their stock went up. It's just so fast, and there are so many tools that integrate, that you can be shipping just shockingly quickly. ALANA: Absolutely. ROB: Alana, we've pulled forward several years of digital transformation already, so where do you see the next horizon now? People who have been pulled into the future now, what is their next future that they're being pulled towards that they're going to have to figure out, as maybe a challenger food brand having a wellness dimension to it? ALANA: I think brands that can will market around wellness, and this is how Marketing For Wellness is set up, to help organizations to figure out how they can market around wellness. With COVID, you realize that our immune system is the only shield we currently have to protect us against COVID. We don't know when we're going to have a vaccine. We don't know when we're going to have a treatment or how this virus is going to behave, and are we going to have other viruses that might intrude on our lives? The only thing that we can rely on is our immune system. So we're going to see those brands that are already in the space, in food and beverages and wellness, stepping up their game and helping people to support their immune systems. But then we're going to see companies who might not be in that play – they might be in a different industry, but they want to support their communities. They're going to start investing into wellbeing and wellness initiatives. That's one area that I see. Another one, I definitely forecast huge growth for AR and VR technologies to take off, and for many brands, figuring out how to use it wisely, in a way that people can have meaningful experiences – and there are already some interesting innovations coming, like from Lego, where they employed an AR tool working with a company called 8th Wall to create retail experiences to get people to stay in the store longer and get engaged with the product and buy more. We're going to see a lot of the area of AR and VR, I believe. ROB: Around wellness in the past few years, with things like the Apple Watch, and as it's actually become better, we see people trying to quantify some parts of their health. Same thing with Fitbit. But a lot of the sorts of health that you're talking about seem like they are harder to quantify – for instance, the quality of the sugar in a particular product or the quality of your gut biome. Is there anything emerging that you see that may quantify a new area of health that has been a little bit unobserved that may help a category pop? ALANA: Let me first share with you my perspective on all the gadgets. I think they're awesome. I think we need them. I do want to know how many steps I took. But at the end of the day, if you look at the number of insurance claims, they're the same. We still see doctors at the same rate as we did a few years ago, regardless of how much investment has been made into gadgets and into platforms. This is just my overall position. The most accurate measurement of how well your body functions and the most precise measurement is your blood work because gadgets measure some vitals, but it doesn't give you a complete picture. I saw some really interesting technology coming out of Germany where they actually measure your wellbeing and your wellness using your frequency. It looks promising. But what I believe in today is simplicity. As long as we can get people to eat better and to perceive food as medicine, if we eliminate toxic ingredients, artificial ingredients from our diet, if we move more, it's a win. Simple steps. Even if we don't have any gadgets. [laughs] ROB: Yeah, simplicity more than technology. ALANA: Simplicity, yes. ROB: I dig it. Alana, when people want to find you and find your company, where should they go to find you? ALANA: They can find me in two places. They can find me on LinkedIn, Alana Sandel, and they can go to our website, marketingforwellness.com. ROB: That's a good domain for it. I like it. Alana, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. It's been great chatting with you. ALANA: My pleasure, Rob. Thank you for inviting me. ROB: Now more than ever, I can say: Be well. ALANA: Thank you. ROB: Bye. ALANA: Bye. ROB: Thank you for listening. The Marketing Agency Leadership Podcast is presented by Converge. Converge helps digital marketing agencies and brands automate their reporting so they can be more profitable, accurate, and responsive. To learn more about how Converge can automate your marketing reporting, email info@convergehq.com, or visit us on the web at convergehq.com.

Jeff Jordan is President and Executive Creative Director of Rescue: The Behavior Change Agency. Rescue offers a broad range of marketing services for government agencies (public health departments, state and federal agencies) and non-profits seeking to promote positive changes in public health related behaviors.  Jeff started his agency when, as a high school student, he volunteered for his local health department's youth-targeted anti-tobacco program. He transitioned from volunteer to contractor, tweaked the anti-tobacco program to approach teens in an innovative way, and grew the agency through “a lot of referrals.” He opened his first office while he was in college and continued his focus on behavioral change for social good.  In this interview, Jeff tells us that marketing tactics that are used to sell products don't necessarily work in changing “fundamental behavior.” His team has to be expert, not just in marketing, but also in behavior change theory, psychology, and sociology . . . and know how to appeal to different subsets within targeted cohort groups. Jeff says that it can take years for a consistent message to bring measurable change, and although there is nothing equivalent to “sales data” to gauge message impact in “real time,” he has found there are some measurable interim “markers” on the path to behavior change. Tracking and measuring specific behavior-related attitudes or beliefs or pieces of knowledge over time can predict subsequent behavior changes. About 7 years ago, Rescue won a $150 million FDA youth tobacco prevention contract. These funds allowed the agency to increase in size from 50 to 150 employees in 3 years. Today, Rescue's 175 employees work out of 6 offices around the country. They serve government agencies and nonprofits in 30 states. Rescue creates programs for these organizations, but also has a library of campaigns that can be licensed. Over the years, Jeff has learned to say “no” to opportunities that are not right for his agency. Budgets that are too small can limit a campaign's success . . . . and blame for poor results will invariably fall on the agency . . . not on the tight budget. The smaller a client is, the more they tend to demand. Jeff has observed that agencies end up over-servicing smaller accounts to keep them, tie up senior personnel in servicing these smaller clients, and underservice their larger accounts. Jeff warns that really small accounts can hold an agency down. Jeff applauds the move away from condemning people who choose unhealthy behaviors and the increasingly broad awareness of underlying lifestyle situations that contribute to these behaviors. Jeff's agency attracts employees who want to do something good in their careers. He describes the agency as “responsibly rebellious,” and explains that is manifested in the way the agency encourages clients to take risks in a responsible way. Jeff can be reached on his company's website at: Rescueagency.com. The agency runs what Jeff describes as a “pretty robust YouTube Channel” at: youtube.com/rescueagency. Transcript Follows: ROB: Welcome to the Marketing Agency Leadership Podcast. I'm your host, Rob Kischuk, and I'm joined today by Jeff Jordan. He's the President and Executive Creative Director at Rescue: The Behavior Change Agency. Welcome to the podcast, Jeff. JEFF: Thanks so much, Rob. ROB: It's excellent to have you here. Why don't you kick us off by telling us – it's right there in the title, a little bit – Rescue: The Behavior Change Agency. But tell us a little bit about Rescue and where you excel. JEFF: We are a public health behavior change-focused agency. What that means is that we exclusively work for campaigns that strive to change health behaviors for social good. Almost all of our clients are public health departments, state and federal agencies. When we say behavior change, we refer to actually changing a fundamental behavior that a person is performing. So rather than changing what we would describe as a brand preference of someone who drives one car, changing them to drive a different brand of car, we're looking to change that fundamental behavior of actually driving the car and converting them to ride a bicycle instead. Or in other health arenas, things like quitting smoking or eating healthier, etc. ROB: Perfect. Is that something you've actually engaged in? Encouraging people to ride a bike instead of driving a car? JEFF: Not that one. [laughs] But it's an example people tend to understand. ROB: What are some examples, digging a little deeper, of campaigns? You mentioned smoking cessation. There's probably some other interesting things you've worked on. What are some examples? JEFF: We work from simple behaviors like quitting smoking or not using drugs or not vaping and things like that to more complex behaviors like healthy eating, where we're actually promoting specific types of foods, specific changes to what they eat, as well as mental health behaviors that are even more complicated – trying to get people to reduce stigma and recognize when to seek help, when to do something about the feelings they're having, and whatnot. ROB: Very interesting. You mentioned brand preference; in some cases, I think people think of brand preference as being kind of pliable. Maybe it is just as difficult to change as some health behaviors. How do you think about, or how do your clients even think about, measuring these behaviors over the long term? I imagine the feedback loop on one of your campaigns might be rather long in some cases, given the research required to gather those results. Or maybe there's something unexpected I'm not thinking of. JEFF: You're absolutely right. Behavior change, we usually say you need a couple years at least of consistent campaigning to really see a measurable change. Unfortunately, we don't have sales data to look at to see what's happening in real time, so we rely on self-reported surveys and things like that that either our clients perform or that we help them perform to see what people are saying about the behavior. You do have some interim steps that you can measure on the path to behavior change. Whatever your underlying theory is of what you think is changing in order to change the behavior, such as specific attitudes or beliefs or pieces of knowledge about a behavior, you can measure those, and then those can be pretty predictive of a behavior change later down the line. ROB: One benefit it seems like you might have in your industry – is the behavior change industry perhaps a little bit more open about what works and what doesn't than maybe some particular vertical market, like marketing soda or something? JEFF: I think it's a double-edged sword there. It's more open in the sense that you can survive on theory for a longer period of time. In the commercial world, you can have a great theory, but if it doesn't turn around sales in a quarter, you're kind of out of luck there. In public health, you can survive on theory for a few years. So that does allow you to explore more options. But that also allows bad work to remain for a long time. We see that there's a lot of mistakes and common pitfalls that clients fall into, usually when they work with traditional agencies, that just happen over and over again because it works to sell a product, but it doesn't work to change a fundamental behavior. ROB: What about openness in terms of tactics? In some cases you have organizations like the UK's famous – I may be misattributing it, but their Nudge Unit there. You have probably published research in some cases around behavioral change. How much of your work is synthesizing and adapting those things to a community and to availability of resources versus cooking up something completely out-of-the-box and new? JEFF: There's a lot of theory and approaches already within public health behavior change. I think the UK is interesting in that they tend to have movements that occur there within behavior change. 10-15 years ago, they were really social marketing, and then it switched to Nudge, and they seem to all move a little bit more cohesively, maybe because it's a smaller country. Here in the U.S., we don't see as much cohesiveness in the approaches. The latest and greatest CDC strategy or FDA strategy, those do have a big influence on the work, but a lot of states are making decisions for themselves and applying the theories and approaches that they're comfortable with – everything from states that might still be using hardcore scare tactics like the '90s in their drug prevention work, all the way to other states that are more open-minded in realizing things like adverse childhood experiences influence how people make decisions about risk behaviors later in life. That's something that the state of California is really looking at. You have a really wide range of approaches and comfort level with those approaches. One of the things that we have to do that is kind of unique to our industry is we often have to share some of that education and some of those case studies from other states with potential clients so that they can understand, these are your options. You don't have to just do the scare tactics. That's not the only thing out there, and actually it often doesn't really work. So, we have to be the experts not just in marketing itself, but in behavior change theory, psychology, sociology, all these things that go into it. ROB: It sounds like there's a difference of tactics, a difference of outcomes. Are you seeking cessation? Are you seeking some sort of treatment? Are you just seeking a reduction of use in something that is now legal in certain places? It sounds like you are able to pool that expertise and help – in the ways that many agencies are, but you don't think about it so much in public health – bring those best practices and learnings from other clients. That makes me want to pull back and dig in. You're in a very unique area of focus. I think we've done probably 120 or so episodes right now, and we have not been in a conversation with an agency owner who is in public health and behavioral change. You mentioned you've been in the agency, at least, for 20 years. Did you start off with that area of focus? How did Rescue come to be? JEFF: We are definitely a unique agency. I actually started the agency when I was in high school. I was a volunteer for my local health department's anti-tobacco program. That was a youth program. They worked with a local agency, and after volunteering for about a year, I noticed that the kids we were reaching, the teenagers we were appealing to, were not current smokers, and they were never going to be smokers, whether we existed or not. These were good kids. They were leaders. They wanted to put this on their college application. There was really no change I could see that we were causing, even though we were successful from the sense that there was a lot of youth involvement and we were doing a lot of things. Fortunately, we had an advisor at the health department that was also pretty savvy in terms of youth culture. I like to joke that she was a break dancer when she was in high school, and she was maybe 7 years older than me. So, she was still pretty connected with what high risk youth culture might look like versus low risk youth culture. I said, “Why are we spending all our money on these youth?” She was open to allowing me to move from being a volunteer to being a contractor to start to provide some of these services that would change who the program appealed to. That continued for the next year or so in high school, and very quickly we started to innovate in a way that just wasn't happening in public health, particularly with teens. That turned into a lot of referrals. While I was in college, we grew a lot through referrals and got our first office when I was in college and things like that. So, we really grew organically, and from Day 1 have been exclusively focused on public health. ROB: What does the team look like today? What are some of the scale points and key hires to where the team of the agency is now? JEFF: Today we have about 175 employees, six offices around the country. We are the largest marketing agency in San Diego, but most San Diego businesses can't hire us. [laughs] Our work, though, is spread around the country. We don't have a specific geographic footprint. There's not one place where our clients are clustered. We work with about 30 different states and with the federal government, with the FDA, as well as Veterans Affairs and others. Some of the big scale points that have occurred – there's been a few. The biggest one was about 7 years ago, when we were about 40 or 50 people at the time and we won a contract with the FDA to do youth tobacco prevention. That contract was a $150 million contract for an agency of 50 people. We very quickly grew thanks to that contract. We brought on our CEO, Kristin Carroll (who's still with us today), at that time, who helped us grow quickly. Within a matter of 3 years, we went from about 50 people to 150 people. But in that time, we've continued to grow with other clients as well. Some other notable wins are the California Department of Health's nutrition campaign as well as some other states that have brought on larger contracts. ROB: You mentioned that many San Diego businesses probably can't work with you. Does that reflect a change in the overall deal size that you've pursued? JEFF: No, no, that's just mainly because we don't do commercial marketing. You have to be a public health oriented campaign. We work with the local county health department, we work with the local school district, and we also work with the district attorney's office. So, we work with a lot of local government agencies, but we don't have any commercial customers here or anywhere else. ROB: I see. Once many agencies scale, and especially north of 100 people, I think a lot of times they become very focused on just the FDA size deals. How do you manage that different granularity of client size within one organization and not become really fixated on hitting those homeruns? JEFF: That has definitely been a problem of scaling up. There aren't that many FDA size deals in our space, so we're forced to continue our more modest deal size – which we're very happy with. But I think the biggest challenge that has occurred is being careful not to try and apply universal lessons to the entire agency. Some things that we do for our largest client don't necessarily apply to our smallest clients. We've gotten in trouble sometimes in starting to do things for our smaller clients the way we do it for our larger clients and then going over budget and overcomplicating things when they don't need to be. And vice versa, also making sure we don't get too simple with our biggest accounts. We have to operate in this limited budget standpoint for some of our accounts and then a more open budget to explore different things with our largest accounts. That's probably the biggest thing we have to remind ourselves of and be cautious with. Really, we're operating like two different agencies within one. ROB: We are chatting here right in the middle of the spring 2020 COVID-19 epidemic. How has that changed your mix of business? Do you have clients that are working within – do you have some stay home campaigns running and that sort of thing as well? I imagine any work you've done, you've had to learn very quickly. JEFF: Surprisingly, we haven't gotten into any stay at home work, mainly because we tend to focus on long-term campaigns so that we can measure these long-term changes. It does affect COVID because a lot of the reasons that people are passing away because of COVID is because of preexisting conditions that we're trying to prevent with some of our other behaviors. So in a way, they're all connected. But when there's an emergency like this, communications get out pretty quickly and go viral pretty quickly. You don't really need the traditional long-term campaign to figure it out. The one thing that has changed the most for us is the production of new creative and new messages. Right now we're focused almost exclusively on creating animated work and infographics and things like that. Our clients still want to produce the work, still want to put new messages out there. Right now, people are consuming media more than ever before, so we're still cranking away new stuff. ROB: That's excellent. Jeff, you've been at this for a little bit; you've built the largest agency in San Diego, which is quite a thing. What are some things that you've learned along this journey that you might do a little bit differently if you were starting Rescue all over again? JEFF: There's so many lessons you learn, but you almost need to learn them in order to grow from them. I think that one of the things that we learned was not to be afraid to say no to an opportunity if that's not the right opportunity. I have to teach this lesson to every new business development person we bring on or client service person we bring on. It might feel weird to say no to a small client, but keep in mind that if they don't have enough funds for us to do a good job, they won't blame the budget; they will blame us for not doing a good job. And without fail, the smaller the client, the more they ask for. Oftentimes I've seen a lot of agencies get stuck in this world where they are over-servicing smaller accounts to keep them and underservicing their larger accounts, and it's usually top-heavy. It's usually more senior people that are servicing these smaller accounts, who are now not able to go out there and pursue bigger work. So, you really have to be careful of the really small accounts holding you down. ROB: How do you think about positioning and communicating the scope with the small accounts so that their expectations are aligned? Or have you found it's hard to manage them and you just have to pick the right ones and let someone else have the ones that are going to ask for the full buffet for 5 bucks? JEFF: We definitely let someone else have those. [laughs] It's about being transparent upfront and saying, “Look, this is what it takes to do good work, and this is why. These are all the components that need to go into something.” We have found ways of being able to accept smaller accounts with different strategies. For example, something that's completely unique to our space is we actually license campaigns. We have about four different preexisting campaigns that governments can license from us and that are reused over and over again across the country. That has allowed us to open the door to some smaller – not the smallest, but some of the smaller accounts that don't have the funds to create new campaigns, but do have enough funds to implement a licensed campaigns. That's something that could never happen in the commercial world; no one would ever want to share anything. But in our space, the government loves to share, and they actually love the reduced risk that comes with knowing this has already run somewhere else. ROB: Right. I can see you coming with some results, and they can see what the campaign looks like out in the world. They can probably even go and visit and see in some other place how this campaign looks in the wild, which you can't do, to your point, for most businesses. Maybe you could get away with it in – I don't know, if you were just serving one lawyer per market, or one plumber, or something crazy like that. But even then, they probably wouldn't want to share. JEFF: Right, exactly. There's so many things that we do here because we are focused on this space that would just not be possible if we were a generalist agency. And that's part of our argument for potential new clients: look, you can hire your local ad agency that everyone has heard of that has done all the car dealerships and local banks and things like that, or you can hire a specialist in public health. What's going to happen if you hire a specialist in public health is you're going to get all this institutional knowledge about how public health marketing is different from commercial marketing and be able to be more effective, more efficient, and have all this research and tools at your disposal. ROB: Jeff, at 175 people, you're up above that 150-person Dunbar number that many people talk about as that maximum number of people you can be in relationship with, or people might phrase it differently. How have you thought about structuring, organizing, and persisting culture as you break through dozens and then triple digits and then over 150? JEFF: We had a pretty strong culture before I knew that company culture was a thing. It comes from the culture being embedded in the work. A lot of times, folks try to put this layer of culture on their organization that doesn't really have anything to do with anything. That's where culture tends to fail or feel shallow. Where culture is really strong and real is where it manifests through the work. For example, one piece of our culture is that we describe ourselves as “responsibly rebellious.” What that means is that we want to push our clients to take risks within a responsible way. That is manifest through a lot of decisions that we make for our clients, things that we present to our clients, ways that we approach how we work with our clients. Then, when we say that's a part of our culture, it's true. It is a part of our work. It's part of what we do. When we talk about being science-based, we have a giant in-house research team that does presentations for us that is then infused in the creative and in the strategy. So, I think the best way to maintain culture is to just have an identity that is real and that you truly apply every single time you do the work. ROB: It almost seems like some of the culture would be self-selecting. Not to say that people might not view Rescue as a very attractive place to work, but it seems like an odd company to sign up for unless you have a real interest in messages of public health and in helping people and helping communities. Do you find that in the interview process? JEFF: Yeah. This millennial generation that's now dominating our workforce, we are the ideal kind of company to work for. They want to cause social change. They want to have an impact, and we can allow them to have that impact. So, definitely the people that come in are people who have an interest in doing something good with their career. And that helps. Everybody in the agency wants to have a good outcome from that campaign on a deeper level than just simply delivering for a client. ROB: That makes sense. Jeff, what's coming up for Rescue that you are excited about? Or maybe it's even something in terms of either broad messages that you're seeing trends in, or even tactically? JEFF: One thing that's pretty exciting is that we're seeing a broad awakening of the underlying lifestyle situations that lead people to choose unhealthy behaviors. The best example of this is what's happening in California with the new – California has a Surgeon General for the first time, and she is focused on infusing adverse childhood experience understanding, which is this area of health research that talks about if you had these really, really big things happen to you when you were a kid – things like divorce or a parent dying or domestic violence or mental health in the family, these heavy things – those things set you on a trajectory to take on much higher risks later in life. And if you can embed an understanding of who people are and where they come from in your work, you can be more effective with these populations. So, an understanding of that, an understanding of mental health, an understanding that people don't do risky things in isolation. They do them from a complicated equation of everything that's happened in their life. That was just not existent for the past 20 years, particularly in things like drug and alcohol prevention, where it's like “people who use drugs are just making a bad choice, they're just stupid, they're just bad and they need to be told to stop doing bad things.” [laughs] That's just not how it works. It's really nice that a lot of public health is moving away from that perspective and instead moving towards a deeper understanding of the complexity of human identity. ROB: Absolutely. It brings to mind for me – you have a responsibility; the messages you're putting out there are not messages for any particular – you probably work with governments of every political party possible. JEFF: That's right. ROB: But we live in a world where – what you're saying even hearkens back to partisan politics. How do you think about putting messages out into the world that have to transcend politics and party? JEFF: I think we all suffer, across industries, across topics, from talking to ourselves and not understanding someone who's different. One of the things I like to say that I feel makes this so different is applied empathy. It's not just that we have more empathy than someone else, but that we actually apply that empathy to how we create our messages and can articulate, when we're going to create a campaign for rural men, why that campaign has to be so different from a campaign, for example, for African American women. What is different about their life experience, their attitudes, their worldview, their values that will change the way we communicate to them – but also change what we're saying. A great example of this is that we do a ton of tobacco prevention work, still, with teenagers, and you can talk to an alternative teen in an urban area who listens to rock and things like that – you can talk to them about the evilness of the tobacco industry and all the horrible things they've done, and they will get fired up. They'll say, “I don't want to support an industry that's destroying the world and manipulating people.” So, you can motivate them not to smoke just by talking about the tobacco industry to them. But then you take a rural teen, a country teen who maybe is a younger version of the right side of our political spectrum, and you talk to them about the tobacco industry and it just doesn't even faze them. They're like, “Well, that's their right as a company and you have the right to choose what you're going to do, whether you do that behavior or not. It's all about personal responsibility.” If you don't know that difference and if you don't know that they are processing information differently and caring about different things, then you're just speaking to yourself. You're just speaking about what you care about. And that can apply to so, so many different things. Within politics, its' so interesting to see people just yell within their bubbles about things that they care about and are baffled by why no one else cares about them or why the other side doesn't care. All you have to do is just spend a little bit of time on the other side and you'll understand why they don't care about what you're talking about. ROB: It's a great thought for all of us on meeting people where they are instead of where we think they are. Jeff, when the audience wants to get in touch with you and with Rescue, where should they look for you? Where should they find you? JEFF: Yeah, definitely. Rescueagency.com is our website. There's contact information there for different folks. But also, if you're just interested in what I was talking about and learning more about public health marketing and behavior change and things like that, we have a pretty robust YouTube channel, youtube.com/rescueagency. Lots of actual workshops and videos that we've done explaining our approach and research and some examples of the work. ROB: Perfect. Jeff, thank you for joining us. Thank you for the thoughtful work that you do. We're grateful for it, and look forward to a lot more of it in the future. Congrats on all the success. JEFF: Thank you. Thanks for having me on. ROB: Thank you for listening. The Marketing Agency Leadership Podcast is presented by Converge. Converge helps digital marketing agencies and brands automate their reporting so they can be more profitable, accurate, and responsive. To learn more about how Converge can automate your marketing reporting, email info@convergehq.com, or visit us on the web at convergehq.com.

Espree Devora, got tagged as “the Girl Who Gets it Done.” Later, when a friend observed her enthusiasm in tackling a number of business tasks for Tony Hsieh, then head of Zappos. Her passion for content creation began when she was in the 6th grade and her father gave her a video camera. She filmed hundreds of sequences featuring “extreme” sports (skateboarding, motocross) and built the first online action sports social network. In 2012, she attempted to start “We are LA Tech,” featuring local startup founders. She shot 12-episodes, but her enterprise partner refused to edit the material. Dead end. Two years later, in September 2014, Espree resurrected “We are LA Tech” as a podcast. By October 2014, it topped Apple's New & Noteworthy. She had learned on YouTube everything she needed to know to run a podcast. In 2015, Espree launched “Women in Tech” in response to the dire “glass ceiling” warnings so prevalent at the time. Her purpose? To “create a positive piece of content whose sole purpose is to show us what's possible, to expand our belief system, so listeners walk away feeling, “'If she can do it, so can I.'” Much of the theme of her work is what Espree calls “vulnerable leadership.” She wants to share “how people have built their companies and their professions in ways that are really empowering, and what can we learn from them.” In this interview, For people interested in getting started in podcasting, Espree recommends the technical equipment and software that she has found to be most helpful, planning and motivational strategies, She provides a series of podcasting training videos.  The first tool in Espree's podcasting toolbag was an app to help her maintain focus on daily goals, to help her deal with her fear of “ creating this thing, and then creating a thing that didn't work out.” Tools she uses today: An Audio Technica 2100 microphone, Sound Studio editing software. As podcasting has grown, the demand for podcasting training has likewise increased. Espree teaches everything from large groups to intensive, private, month-long master classes. She recommends continuous outreach to maintain relationships and lists a number of tools effective for doing this, and offers tips on techniques and frequency . . . in order to be “un—annoying.”  Espree had been scheduled as a speaker at this year's now-cancelled South by Southwest. She has given many presentations there in the past, performed live podcasts, and led meetup groups. She credits her success to being where hard work meets luck and opportunity, a variation of the Roman philosopher Seneca's “Luck Is What Happens When Preparation Meets Opportunity." Espree can be reached on LinkedIn and all social at (Espree Devora), and onTwitter @espreedevora. Her podcasts are on: WeAreLATech.fm http://podcast.wearelatech.com/ and WomeninTech.fm http://podcast.womenintechshow.com/.  Transcript Follows: ROB: Welcome to the Marketing Agency Leadership Podcast. I'm your host, Rob Kischuk, and I am joined today by Espree Devora, “the Girl Who Gets It Done.” She is the Creator and Host of the We Are LA Tech podcast and also the host of Women in Tech. Welcome to the podcast, Espree. ESPREE: Hello, hello! Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to be here. ROB: Very excited to have you here. Why don't you tell us a little bit about your own journey into becoming “the Girl Who Gets It Done” and hosting the things that you do?  ESPREE: Oh my gosh. A lot of people ask me when I became an entrepreneur, like when I made that decision. I feel like I was born an entrepreneur. I remember walking into Westwood Village with my father and looking into the empty office buildings, picturing what businesses I would put in them. As I went along my journey, I think I just became very resourceful in a lot of different areas, from junior high to high school to college, and eventually the tagline “the Girl Who Gets it Done” came from when I was hanging out with Tony Hsieh, who is the head of Zappos, and a bunch of his entourage. I was taking care of some things and people kept asking me, “Are you his assistant? Are you his publicist? Who are you?” My girlfriend who was with me at the time just said, “She's the girl who gets it done.” [laughs] It just stuck, and it's been that way for a really long time. ROB: Excellent. I think if you get a nickname around Tony Hsieh, you stick to it for the most part. ESPREE: Definitely. ROB: What about the journey into these podcasts that you host? When did you realize that was something you wanted to do and then really caught your ongoing attention? ESPREE: I think the first moment that I realized I was really excited by content creation was in the 6th grade, when my dad gifted me a video camera and I got to explore. I ended up building the first action sports media company online. It was the first action sports social network, and we produced hundreds and hundreds of video content across skateboarding, motocross, all these things. Then in 2012, I had this urge to continue creating content, but at that point in my life I was more interested in the startup world. I had already been in the startup tech world, obviously, building the first social network for action sports, but I didn't understand that. At that time I was just doing things. They weren't a global trend like it is now. Terms like “social media,” “entrepreneur,” “founder,” “accelerators,” these things were not a thing then. In 2012, when LA started to have more startups and have more founder stories, I wanted to capture that moment, so I partnered with someone to create a video series called We Are LA Tech. Unfortunately, that person didn't share the same work ethic I had. We shot 12 episodes, and that person's responsibility was to edit them and none of them were edited. My heart was broken. I waited a year, and I ended up going on a backpacking trip to escape this reality that this video series would never be completed that I felt so passionate about. While backpacking in Europe, my friend Mark who founded a company called BetaList, started showing me podcasts on his iPhone. At the time I was an Android person. He's like, “You've got to listen to these podcasts. They're so funny. You'll love them.” I get back to the States; I get an iPhone because I want to stay connected with my friends in Europe and it was the easiest way to do that at the time. I start listening to podcasts. I didn't realize that years before, I had actually been listening to two podcasts, Podcasts and Product People by Justin Jackson, who actually has now co-founded a podcast hosting company called Transistor. He was one of the early podcasters, and I just loved his show. But at that time I would move the audio files from the computer to my phone. It wasn't the thing it is today, so I didn't even know I was listening to podcasts. Anyway, at the same time, I was like, wow, if I start a podcast too, I never have to rely on a video editor again. [laughs] So in 2013 I started stirring up the We Are LA Tech podcast in my head. It launched in I think September 2014, and by October 2014, it was number one on Apple's New & Noteworthy. It was just really exciting. I'm completely a self-taught podcaster. I taught myself how to edit. I taught myself everything. I just watched a lot of YouTube videos, and I've been podcasting ever since. Then in 2015, I launched the Women in Tech podcast, and the story goes on and on. ROB: What made you realize that maybe it was worth at least experimenting with the Women in Tech podcast? Or were you all-in from Day 1 and you knew it had to be a thing? ESPREE: The Women in Tech podcast was inspired because at the time, these women's groups were becoming a thing. They were never a thing before. I'm like, “Oh look, that's me. I founded companies and I am a girl too, so I want to check out what's going on.” All these groups I would go to at the time, the whole conversation would be about how women are held back or statistics that are in the negative and this and that. I'm like, man, I've never felt held back. The only person I've ever felt held back by is me. If I had heard all these messages about how much was not possible for me, I would have never built the first action sports social network. I wouldn't have raised money. I wouldn't have done all these things because I would've believed it wasn't possible for someone like me. So I wanted to create a positive piece of content whose sole purpose is to show us what's possible, to expand our belief system, so listeners walk away feeling “If she can do it, so can I.” ROB: There's a common thread, it seems, between both of the podcasts. You have, with LA, an underappreciated market for startups – I think perhaps even still to this day, there's some very good companies, but also with a chip on their shoulder. And then with Women in Tech, similarly, there's sometimes a lack of appreciation, a lack of highlighting, a lack of encouragement in both cases, you're putting a positive spin on it rather than saying, “Hey, pay attention because you're not paying enough attention.” ESPREE: Yeah. I think my brand theme – I call it vulnerable leadership, where it's not that I want to just be positive. I don't want to be Instagram perfect. But I do want to share a vulnerable message in a way that we could shift our belief system to turn something that could be perceived as a negative into a positive. I think the process behind that is really important. It's not just about being like “Everything's great! You have it so much better than everybody else!” [laughs] It's about, okay, today sucks or whatever a person is dealing with, but here are the steps I went to, because do I want to feel sucky right now? No. If I don't want to feel sucky, what's something that I can do to potentially shift myself out of that mindset? I think that's what my shows exemplify, just vulnerable leadership: how have people built their companies and their professions in ways that are really empowering, and what can we learn from them? ROB: For those of us who are outside of the LA tech world, certainly we've heard of some of the newer fliers – I think maybe Byrd or Lime scooters is from there. I apologize for not knowing what you know. ESPREE: That's okay. ROB: I've definitely ridden plenty of scooters. But what are some of the companies that are maybe trending right now that people may not fully be aware of, but should be? ESPREE: Oh wow, trending? I don't know who's trending right now because I tend to stay laser-focused on sharing people's stories. But some companies that are iconic that you may have seen – of course, Snapchat is here. FabFitFun is here. There's really huge companies that are popular at least across the U.S., if not globally, that were created – Myspace was in LA. Google has tons of offices here now, and they're really a dominant force in the LA tech scene. YouTube has their Creator Hub here. It's definitely a thriving tech city. My primary interest is the lifestyle and culture of a tech professional, more than what is the latest gadget. However, if you tell me the latest video or microphone gadget, I will be interested, but that's just for personal, selfish reasons. [laughs] ROB: I was going to ask – I think a lot of people, when they hear about podcasting, they feel very intimidated in terms of the whole process, from creation of the content to editing and publishing. What was in your first podcasting tool bag? ESPREE: That's a great question. I'd say the first thing that was in my podcasting tool bag was actually the app. I don't even remember what it was called. It's like Daily Goal. It was some daily goal app. The reason that was the first one in my bag is because I was so afraid of, one, creating this thing, and then creating a thing that didn't work out. What I did was I created a goal every day. It could be like “create podcast artwork,” “get a microphone,” “schedule an interview.” Just one thing. And I wouldn't allow myself to not do the thing. I remember when I got my first podcast poster designed, and I didn't like the design and I thought it was really ugly, but my goal for that day was “post it,” like it's done. So I just went with it. It was about the forward movement; it wasn't about being perfect. I actually happen to really like that flyer now, but at the time I did not. That was my first one. Then as I became more educated by watching YouTube videos, I bought a Snowball mic because I knew my episodes would be in-person and it would be more than one person, so I wanted a mic that picked up more people. A Snowball mic is actually the lowest level mic because it's really meant for musicians, like a guitarist or something like that. It's not meant for multiple people. Those are for technical reasons that I can get into another time. Feel free to tweet me @espreedevora if you'd like to know more reasons why. But it was a Snowball. What I'd recommend to everybody starting out is an Audio-Technica 2100, and that's actually what I'm using right now. Again, I could share with you the technicalities of why in another conversation. Then I had my computer. I have a Mac, so I found an editing program called Sound Studio. I found it on a random forum. They do a terrible marketing job because they're very hard to find. [laughs] But they're an incredible software program. The way I describe it, it's like iMovie for audio. They just make it stupid simple to edit audio. It's great. So I used that. I remember my very first interview, I didn't even know how to record it. I was just confused, and I plugged the Snowball into the computer and I was trying to figure it out. It's scary, but what matters is that we take a step forward. In my speeches, when I give speeches on how to podcast, the thing that I tell the whole audience is on their way home, I want them to take out their phone and, in their voice memo app in their phone, I want them to record their first interview on the drive home, or their first podcast episode. Then I want them to send me that via Google Drive or email or whatever it is, because that's all that matters in the beginning, is taking a step forward and just taking action. ROB: If you take that step forward every day, which you were doing with your app, it's like those challenges when people talk about if you just get 1% done better every day, it really does add up. Are you still editing, or have you managed to delegate that opportunity? ESPREE: First of all, I happen to love editing. I call it “painting audio.” But it is not who I want to be in the world. [laughs] I'm very lucky; an editor that I hired in 2014 has been with me since, and he works with me and edits everything. I have other editors that I've worked with as well. So I do have the editing done. Every so often, I'll tell them that I want to contribute and I'll do an episode here or there, but I do not rely on my own time for editing anymore. ROB: It's the same as my experience. We actually did a quick cycle episode that we recorded yesterday about the financial stimulus involved in the CARES Act and how marketing agencies can claim that money for themselves to keep their team onboard. But normally, I have trained editors – and I think what you said before, audio versus video is very, very forgiving. ESPREE: Completely. ROB: If there's a glitch in the middle of a word, it's remarkable. You can just highlight it, delete it, and it sounds great all of a sudden, whereas if you did that with video it would look insane. ESPREE: Totally, completely. And there's so much that goes into video, from lighting, color correction, angles, audio. There are so many variables, you just cannot get away with high quality video if you don't know what you're doing. It's a huge learning curve. The main components of a podcast – and again, I can dig into this deeper in a different conversation – are the tracks: is each person's voice being recorded on a separate track or is everybody's voice on the same track? How does it sound, the mic that you're using? Are you doing it remotely or in person? Because that will have an impact on your equipment decisions. Things like that. But there's just so much more that goes into editing and shooting video. ROB: As you mentioned, all the information is out there. Everything is essentially figureoutable. I think there's a book to that effect. I first figured out how to record live because I was at the Social Shakeup Conference and I saw somebody there recording live, and I just walked up to them and asked them, and because they'd done it enough, they had a page that listed all their gear, and they had affiliate links. Normally I don't even click on affiliate links because I'm kind of ornery about that, but I totally clicked their affiliate links. It was something done with a mix of generosity and sharing, and if they get a few bucks, to your point, for that Snowball mic or for the Zoom recorder that we use when we're in person, who am I to be upset about that? ESPREE: Yeah, totally. But I don't have an affiliate link for you. [laughs] ROB: Maybe another revenue stream there. ESPREE: Yeah, it's something I've thought about. It's one of the many things that still is on my to-do list for way too long. ROB: But you're figuring it out step by step. How did you make that jump? I think a lot of agencies, marketers, organizations develop a competency without taking it to the next level. You went from creating podcasts to training people to do podcasts. How did you evolve into that shift? ESPREE: I think it's a few things. One, I was just asked by several people. I got into podcasting in 2013, when it wasn't a thing and it wasn't cool. It didn't start to become more – I mean, obviously podcasting has been around for several years, way before that, but it just became this mainstream thing in the last few years. In 2013, it wasn't on the radar. In 2014, it started to bubble up on the radar because of the StartUp podcast. Then Serial came out, so then the mainstream news started talking about podcasting, and it was a domino effect from there. At that time, I think it was just supply and demand. [laughs] Even today, it's supply and demand. People have a really hard time finding any indie production companies for podcasts, so I get a lot of inbound on that because I've been creating my show for several years. You can't find a lot of people who have been both producing and hosting for several years. Maybe they just started 10 episodes ago or something. I have hundreds and hundreds of episodes done and distributed. So sometimes it's just getting there early. Now my “why” is interesting. I get asked a lot to teach. Initially I did it just for the community so that they can learn and express themselves, but I found that it was really exciting to be a part of their journey in creation and to really help facilitate them creating something meaningful so it's not just another audio file, but it's something people feel mentally subscribed to. That's been great. So I do a couple things, whether I'm teaching classes for the general assemblies of the world or USC and organizations like that or I'm doing semi-private masterclasses that are a month-long immersive, and I meet with a small group of people and I have expert guest speakers on. It's just really, really fun. So I've really enjoyed it. That's why I do it, because I love it and love being a part of their journey. ROB: There's so many cool little hidden skills in there. I think you're able to keep going on a podcast because of that rhythm that you put into your life overall. I think people might not think entirely – you're based in the Los Angeles area, and that's content city. That has to partly pervade who's interested in talking to you. When I look at how you've picked up these skills along the way, one skill you picked up that I think a lot of people would look at with some jealousy is you have figured out how to be selected as a speaker at South by Southwest. That's where we originally intended to speak in person. How did you figure out that process? I know people who have been trying for years and can't sort it out. I imagine you did it one step at a time. ESPREE: Honestly, I feel like I got – what's that saying? “Where hard work meets luck and opportunity” or something like that, or preparedness? I've bene working so hard for so many years. I started going to South by as a journalist, and then I became a speaker at South by – I don't remember what year, but I've given many talks there and performed the podcast live and led meetup groups. But the meetup groups I've led have been the podcasters meetup, and like I said, in 2013 no one cared. I said I would do this thing; I was the only person offering myself up to do this thing. Or maybe there weren't a lot of people. And the talks that I've given have ranged from anything from in the early days it was more on entrepreneurship, and now, again, podcasting. It's just about demonstrating where my unique value proposition is, the unique insights, the energy that I bring to the table as a speaker, what makes me a speaker that stands out amongst the rest. So just really think about that for yourself. What is an interesting angle? Actually, I think I'll do a thing for you in a second, just for your audience, so you can have a little sampling of what that sounds like. The last thing is performing my podcast live at South by Southwest. I performed the Women in Tech podcast live last year and then also this year. Again, it's over time, establishing myself as a podcaster, my relationships, the audience that I have. The purpose and mission of why my content exists in the first place is very clear. It's just this stew of hard work, and then it's the luck of being noticed. Sometimes you can even manipulate being noticed. I should say positively manipulate, meaning that you're doing enough outreach, that you're using programs like Pipedrive and Contactually to make sure that you're continuously doing your outreach. That's maintaining your relationships. My mom comes from an entertainment background, and she always said – it was her or maybe my grandmother who said “the squeaky wheel gets the oil.” So when she talks about being in the entertainment business, she says they'd cast the people who called last because that's the person that was on the top of their mind. I'm like, that's really interesting. And it's true; the more you're on the top of people's minds, in a non-annoying way, the more they'll think of you when there's an opportunity. The more you make yourself helpful – I was featured in Forbes randomly, and the reason I was featured in Forbes, that feature happened because I was doing an interview I think a year or a year and a half before, and the interview went something like 3 hours late. So I was just sitting in a waiting room for several hours. I never complained and I just chilled there and I was nice about it. Then the person who kept coming back in to apologize to me was so grateful that I did that that when there was the opportunity for Forbes, I was the first person that was thought of. Just because I waited in a chill manner. [laughs] ROB: Which anybody can do. ESPREE: Totally. So it's like, how are you showing up to life in unique ways that make you stand apart? If it's okay with you, Rob, I'm going to do a quick thing. I'm going to show you how I start my speaking engagements and my podcast, because it's not this tone of voice. Is that okay with you? Can I do that? ROB: Run with it. ESPREE: Okay, cool. Everybody watch your eardrums just a little bit. I'm going to hold the mic a little bit away because I don't know the levels of how we're recording right now. But this is what it sounds like, and the reason why I'm sharing this with you is because this is what sets me apart and makes me a unique speaker and podcaster. I'd say the thing that sets me apart is my energy when I show up to the stage. Three… two… one… “Welcome back to the Women in Tech podcast, celebrating women in tech around the world! So excited for our next guest here today. Welcome…” and then you say the person's name. But that's just crazy, right? That's out of nowhere. Where it's inspired from is growing up, I was super into wrestling. [laughs] ROB: Yes, it sounds like wrestling. [laughs] That's amazing. ESPREE: I was super into wrestling and I loved the wrestlers being announced onstage, and then I was really into Steven Tyler's stage performance and how he would really be into the mic and really be energized. So that's why when I do my podcasts and my interviews, I stand. You never see people stand when they're doing it. I stand. And I do it for a lot of other reasons too, because of your vocal cords. Onstage, I stand. Sometimes I'll kick my shoes off. I'll never stand behind a podium. There's just all sorts of techniques. My friend Mark, who actually built the YouTube Player, gave me the best speaking advice. He said, “People don't remember what you say; they remember how you made them feel.” I think about that with my podcast. I think about that onstage. How am I making everyone feel? Are they feeling the way I intend for them to feel? And if not, what do I need to do? When I show up that way, the guest feels more energized, the audience feels more engaged, and to the event organizer, I'm a unique speaker that brings something different to the table. ROB: Absolutely. I love it. We have a wrestling announcement right here on the podcast. [laughs] I think you mentioned something that is really key that would be easy to get lost in the mix. You mentioned staying on people's minds in an un-annoying way. I think we are in a very perhaps more challenging moment for that, where people who don't have that skill may be a little bit lost. We are sheltering in place right now in our homes to avoid getting and spreading the coronavirus. What you can't count on is bumping into somebody in the halls, in a restaurant you usually run into, at a networking event. How do you think about staying on people's radar in an un-annoying way? Because quite often, I think people give advice of sending a link – and you actually did send me a very good link in our chat – but I think there are often times where that can feel still very inauthentic and people can tell. You're still just sending them a link because someone told you to send them a link to stay on their radar. ESPREE: A hundred percent. I think there's a lot of different ways, and we need to find the tools that are right for our own personalities. The kind of things that I look at – one of them, the first thing I want to say, there's a tool called Bombbomb which does video messaging. It's really great to make something a bit more personal, to show somebody that you care. I find that even when I send a Bombbomb video, if I don't say the person's name, they may think that I created it for a lot of people. I remember I made one for even my friend, who's also a customer, one time. She said, “You know, it was until you said my son's name, I thought it was a video for everyone.” It's really interesting to me because it was personalized. There's tools – like I said, Contactually. There's a ton of other tools. I know Tim Ferriss uses Evernote a lot. I don't necessarily know if he uses it for maintaining follow-up, but Evernote is a great tool. There's WorkFlowy. There's different programs that will spit out who you haven't followed up with lately. LinkedIn is such a powerful resource for all of us. I think it's about really thinking, who do you want to connect with? Why do you want to connect with them, and how often? And are you tracking that follow-up? I use a CRM system called Pipedrive, and like I said, I'm a huge fan of Contactually as well. I think Contactually is just a great follow-up tool. I've heard good things about Nimble. You could find out what's going on in someone's life via Twitter, via Instagram, via Facebook. Really paying attention to their social networks. I call it ego marketing. It sometimes sounds like a bad thing, but all of us – all of us – we operate on our egos. We feel like the world is revolving around us at all times. “What's that person thinking of me? What's that person doing,” blah, blah, blah, me, me, me. If you all of a sudden come to someone and say, “I watched your talk online,” and say the specific talk, and then say what you got out of it and maybe a timestamp, it is just so clear that that is about them. The kind of messages I can't stand – because I get an abundance of inbound messaging for the Women in Tech podcast, or even one yesterday, perfect example, the We Are LA Tech podcast. Someone messaged me asking to be on the show and they weren't in Los Angeles. If they knew the show, they'd know every single episode is from someone in Los Angeles. So obviously you don't care. You're just mass mailing. With Women in Tech, I'll get messages about the controversial topics someone could talk about, and if they knew the show, they'd know we do no controversy, no politics. So it tells me that you really don't care. I'm just some name on your list. So when you're thinking about follow-up, you want to think about: who do you want to follow up with and why? What's a meaningful way to follow up with them? And then tracking that follow-up. And not following up too much. Another example is somebody followed up with me three times in one week, and I hadn't seen any of the messages. Then on the third message they said, “I know you're probably getting annoyed with my messages” – which just shows me it's an automated system. “You're getting annoyed with my messages,” and the truth was I hadn't even seen the other two. My response back was, “One, I'm not interested, and two, I recommend you not follow up in such a short period of time.” [laughs] Imagine if I'm giving a talk, if I'm at South by Southwest this week, I am not really on email or paying attention. If you follow up three times this week, during this particular phase of my life, the chances of me seeing them is so low. That's why it's way more effective to follow up 3 weeks to a couple months apart. But just really be sincere in why you're even following up with the people in the first place. ROB: If you're following up 3 weeks or 3 months or anything like that, also, you have to have a mindset where you're playing the long game. You're not playing the short game where it's “How many times can I message you in 2 weeks and then either ignore you or maybe you've answered me.” ESPREE: Right. ROB: If someone looks at the Women in Tech podcast, I think one thing they'll realize is, number one, your level of commitment there. I think I'm seeing over 400, almost 450 episodes. But also, I think they'll notice that you do the work, and you do the work authentically. What I mean by that is you're not just cherry-picking and trying to ladder up to the biggest name. You have some names on the podcast that are known, but you also have – again, in this theme – people that your listeners might not know but they should. It looks to me like quite often you are going far and wide. You're doing the work of actually reaching out to people across the world, and probably even going there to have those conversations. ESPREE: Rob, I love how you did your homework. [laughs] You would be an email that I would open, because that is so spot-on. I get a lot of messages from a lot of super fancy people, thinking that they're just entitled to be on the show. My personal excitement is sharing a story of a woman that normally doesn't have access. I've traveled to Bosnia; recently I was in Kazakhstan. I've traveled to over 100 countries just to celebrate these women in tech in person, share their stories, be in their culture. People say, “Why not just do remotely?” I wouldn't see the bullets in the buildings on the streets of Bosnia if I wasn't in Bosnia, understanding that the girl I'm interviewing, as a child, she had to be in a bomb shelter to be safe from the war. These are just things you don't get on a 1-hour Skype call or something like that. So really discovering all these magnificent women in tech around the world, giving them the opportunity – I'm really proud that the Women in Tech podcast is, for the majority of guests, the first podcast they've ever been on. It just blows my mind. And it's not necessarily even, by the way, Rob, that these people aren't seasoned; they're just not the internet celebrities of the world. They're not the Gary Vaynerchuks. [laughs] Then I also have the more well-known people, as you mentioned, and I'm excited to share their stories as well. But my “why” in doing the show is not for social status. It's not to look good. It's really to be this bridge for women in tech around the world to be able to discover the resources and mentorship that they need to accelerate. Hearing stories of how women have pulled over to write notes, listening to the episodes, or shared the stories with their family, or investors have reached out to them because they've been on the show – truly social impact. It's amazing. So it's not about “do I look the coolest?” It's about “am I creating the biggest impact?” ROB: That resonates completely with who you are and what you want to accomplish. I think it's also a little bit of a secret – and it's not a secret because we're talking about it, but candidly, it makes booking a podcast a lot easier when you're booking people who are interesting and have a story, but it is their first podcast. They say yes a lot more. ESPREE: Oh yeah, I'm sure. Well, the one thing about women in tech – yes, I think your point is accurate, and, unfortunately, with women in tech – a lot of people ask me, “What's the biggest commonality of all the women in tech that you're met with?” They're expecting some technical answer. Unfortunately, the biggest commonality is that I think as a culture, oftentimes we feel we're not enough. So I will get women who will say “I don't think I'm good enough for your show” or “I haven't spoken before” or something. Then it's my responsibility as a person who wants to be empowering to give them the level of confidence, and also to say, “Listen, I wouldn't be picking you unless I thought you were good enough to be on the show, so how about I make the decision on that?” [laughs] I've had a couple people not want to be interviewed because they're scared, but yes, you are absolutely right that it's going to be a lot easier. You're also right that it's a huge pain point in the podcasting industry for new podcasters, or even a lot of seasoned podcasters, to get yeses from guests. It's a huge pain point. It is one that I do not have, and maybe that contributes to it, you're right. ROB: And you do in-person a lot, which always helps with that rapport. It would be great if we were, but that's not an option right now. We're not getting on planes right now. ESPREE: Totally. ROB: That is okay. We'll hope that we can meet up at South by Southwest next year, perhaps. ESPREE: A hundred percent. ROB: Espree, when people want to check out all the things that you're doing, where should they look to find you? ESPREE: Man, if only I had been smart enough to have one link that says all the things. [laughs] Honestly, look me up on LinkedIn, Espree Devora on LinkedIn. Add me there. It's also Espree Devora on all social – on Instagram, on Twitter, on Facebook. I do really engage on Twitter. And check out the podcasts, WeAreLATech.fm and WomeninTech.fm. ROB: It's all those little things. You put in the work on the domains too. ESPREE: Yeah. ROB: Fantastic. You're consistent on the brand. Espree, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. It's been a true joy to get to know you a little bit, and I know our audience has enjoyed your challenging example of just doing one more thing each day and how that carries through in everything you do. ESPREE: Thank you so much for having me, Rob. This has been great. I'm happy that you made it remote and we were able to make this happen. ROB: That's great. Be well. ESPREE: Bye. ROB: Thank you for listening. The Marketing Agency Leadership Podcast is presented by Converge. Converge helps digital marketing agencies and brands automate their reporting so they can be more profitable, accurate, and responsive. To learn more about how Converge can automate your marketing reporting, email info@convergehq.com, or visit us on the web at convergehq.com.

Oliver and his brother started Kemweb in 1998, providing coding for other agencies and then livestreaming the Sydney Olympic Games in 2000. Three years ago, frustrated with being a tech-supply company, they took their technical expertise and redefined their business as a full-service digital agency, . offering results-driven web design, online marketing, social media marketing, PR, consulting, podcasting, video production and hosting services. Today, Kemweb's 35 developers, art directors, social media experts, and performance team workshop with clients to discover their needs. Kemweb customers range from B2B small and medium sized companies to fast moving consumer goods suppliers. Oliver credits his agency's success to curiosity and agility, and a change in its approach to potential customers. A lot of companies will pitch what they can do for customers, without first finding out what the customers need, saying, “We can do this . . . and this . . . and this. What do you want?” Companies may think about “What are we offering? What kind of service?” – but fail to ask, “Why are we doing it? Why should our customers believe the things we're doing?”  Finding the answer to those last questions was pivotal in driving the Kemweb's approach to its own customers. Business consulting is rare in Germany . . . and it's one of the things that is an intrinsic part of today's Kemweb process. Oliver suggests that you have to drive a lot deeper than the “easy questions” to discover what actions will best serve a client's needs. Kemweb now begins a client business relationship with a workshop/consultation utilizing Strategyzer's Business Model Canvas and Value Proposition Canvas to map out a business's knowledge, unsnarl its inherent complexity, and structure a customer-centric solution, with a focus on communicate the messages their clients want to communicate.  Sean notes that there are cultural differences between businesses in Germany and those in the U.S. For instance: German business owners have greater fear of change and new ways of doing things. Legalities differ as well: Data protection laws are more stringent in the U.S. Sean explains that the linear career process in Germany also affects the way people think. After finishing a German citizens finish their education, they take an apprenticeship, then go to a company and move up the ladder within that company.  Oliver was supposed to serve as a mentor at South by Southwest 2020 in Austin, TX, but the COVID-19 pandemic changed all that. He believes that, “This is a special period in time (that) forces people to be more courageous and to try out new things.” He feels that it is important for businesses to work together – to help the customers with their businesses and to help them survive. “We have to take care of each other . . . worldwide,” he says Sean recommends looking at today's challenges as an opportunity to spend more time with family or to online to learn new skills – just use your time. He is using his time in quarantine to set up an English-language Kemweb landing page. Oliver and Sean can be reached on the social media channels or on the company's website at: www.kemweb.de. They have a German-American podcast, Robot Spaceship, at www.robotspaceship.com,. described as an industry-leading, European podcast network with a focus on technology, culture, innovation and living the digital lifestyle. (You may need to understand a little German.) Transcript Follows: ROB: Welcome to the Marketing Agency Leadership Podcast. I'm your host, Rob Kischuk, and I'm joined today by Oliver Kemmann, Owner and Founder at Kemweb in Mainz, Germany, and also Sean Earley, the New Business Development Manager for the firm. Why don't you gentlemen start off by telling us about Kemweb and where Kemweb excels? SEAN: You go. OLIVER: Maybe I start. [laughs] I founded Kemweb together with my brother about 20 years ago, so 1998, in a time without smartphones, in a time without Facebook and YouTube. We were pretty much doing some coding for other agencies. We started also with livestreaming in the year 2000 for the Olympic Games in Sydney, so we were quite tech-related. As time passed by, we started to ask questions. How can we get away from being this tech supply company and how can we find our own customers? So we started to talk about digital communication and how we could help people out there to succeed in their special business by using modern digital technology. This is what we're doing today. We have about 35 people in the agency and we have developers and we have art directors and we have a social media team and a performance team. We do workshops and stuff to find out what the business is all about and how we can help, and then we set up the channels where we can communicate to the target groups of our customers. We think in stories and experience, talking about the stories our customer wants to get communicated, and we develop the experience on different channels and different devices. This is what we're doing. ROB: A lot of firms I think start off in that mode where they are taking downstream work from other agencies, other firms, but now it sounds like you have a better idea of who your direct customer is. What sort of company and perhaps focus or stage of company is that now? OLIVER: There's not one special kind of customer we are serving. We have a lot of B2B business. In Germany, we have a lot of small and medium sized companies. They're doing a lot of engineering stuff, or small producing companies. Usually they are not very familiar with classic marketing topics and how they could use digital communication to sell their products and services. But we also have, for example, fast moving consumer good customers and help them, for example, with social media campaigns. So it is very widespread, actually, the customers we are serving. It's quite exciting. What do you say, Sean? [laughs] SEAN: Yeah, I think you hit the nail on the head there. I think from my point of view, I come from a background – it's a little bit different in Germany than it is in America. In Germany people have a linear process; they go to school, they do an apprenticeship, they go to a company, and they stay there in that skill range, and they just move up the ladder. In the States, as you all probably know, we work all kinds of jobs before we actually start our career. I've done all kinds of different things. I've worked in all kinds of different jobs. Lots of different agencies, consulted, tech, gaming. One of the things that I have seen is that there's always differences in everybody's needs as a business, but when it comes to marketing specifically, there's a lot of things that everybody needs. It really gets down to that value point, that use case that everybody needs, what is the problem that they have and how we can provide a solution. I think a lot of agencies particularly get a pitch and they go to a client and they say, “We can do all this stuff. What do you want?” When I started working with Kemweb, Ollie and I had a talk and it was like, that's exhausting. It's counterintuitive to what we want to do, and it's kind of counterintuitive to what the client needs because there are specific things that clients need. So we tried to refocus our strategy a little bit to work with clients to figure out exactly what they need first before we say “We'll take your 200,000 euro budget and we'll give you one or two or three things. What do you want?” We really try to focus in on the needs of the client and give them exactly what they need, and at the same time try to explore other areas to try to explore new places ourselves internally and externally so we can provide lots of services to clients. But at the same time, we really like to consult first and then give them what they need, and not just “here's your website, have fun with it.” Sometimes they say they want a website and they don't really need a website, so it's important to talk to people first. That's where the workshop and consulting come in. ROB: Got it. I think there's subtlety in the details there. You're not just talking about doing a bunch of discovery, if I'm hearing you correctly. You're actually talking about entering into a business relationship sooner with the client, where you have a process around a workshop, where you have a consulting arrangement rather than doing a bunch of unpaid discovery on an RFP. Is that what you're getting at? SEAN: Exactly. ROB: Very cool. What does a workshop look like for you? OLIVER: I'm a fan of a company called Strategyzer. It originated in Switzerland. These guys developed some canvas thing called the Business Model Canvas and the Value Proposition Canvas. I guess you're familiar with this. Our approach in the workshops is something Sean said. As a consultant, my job is to get the complexity out of the things. I'm taking all the knowledge the customer has and I'm structuring it in these canvases. This leads us to a very structured way, and at this point we start to look at our customer's customer, so it's very customer-centric. This leads us to exactly the customer pain we're addressing and what the customers are really looking for. Most of the time, it's the first time our customers have thought about their own purpose or why they're doing what they're doing. Most of them are coming from the “what?” – “What are we offering? What kind of service?” But not “Why are we doing it? Why should our customers believe the things we're doing?” This is what we do in the workshops. We try to get all the information from the customer and structure it down in canvases, and then we find the channels and we find the customer groups we should address first. ROB: That's probably been a part of your own journey as well. Business Model Canvas, anybody can google it. You'll find it, you'll pull it up. I feel like that tool flows from left to right, where it does flow into how everything leads in to the customer so you know what you're doing, but let's all tie that through to the customer. You probably had a little bit of your own journey on that as you transitioned from being a subcontractor coding shop to pursuing your own customers. What did that journey look like where you started to realize what the direct customers needed and you started to be able to pull away from taking parts of projects from other people? OLIVER: Good question, actually. Or the right question. When we started 2 or 3 years ago to find this way for ourselves, we always were communicating the “whats,” what we were doing. Websites, apps, firms. This is what every other agency is doing, too. They say what the output is. Then we started to dig deeper and find out, what are we good for? What has brought my brother and me to the point of founding a company or agency? Curiosity and agility are what's driving us. What we are doing now is we're very much curious about our customer's business. If we fully understand what the customer is doing and what the customer needs, then we can help. This was the turning point in our own company history, when we found out that. ROB: That seems like a neat intersection because you've not only found this curiosity for what they're doing, you're aligning this tool. You have a tool that actually facilitates your own curiosity that aligns the customer to where they're actually getting value out of the discovery process, unless they can pay you for it. You've aligned the customer and value for them with who you are in your own curiosity, it sounds like. OLIVER: Yeah. In Germany, at least, it's not very common that you do some kind of business consulting thing in a web project, for example. Most people, after the workshop, say, “This was a business consulting, what you're doing.” They start to look differently at their own business, at the company. In Germany, we're far behind you guys in the States where digital transformation is concerned. Most of the companies are very slow in changing things. The owner-driven companies really are shy to start changes, so they want someone who says, “Everything is okay. We have this web project, for example,” and you give them the money and it's ready by the 1st of June or so, and then you don't have to think about it. SEAN: I would just interject and say culturally, working in the States and in Germany, there's a lot of hyper-focusing on details here. There's also a lot of different rules when it comes to things like data protection, so there's a lot of hesitancy in a lot that goes on here as well. Especially with some sort of new and innovative tech project, a lot of people are like, “We can't even legally do that.” When it comes to things like sales funnels and where you store your customers' data, it's a whole other story over here, so it's not just – they're behind in their desire, but I think also they're behind because there's a hesitancy to want to try because sometimes it's difficult to make those steps. So I think it's a 50/50. There's innovation and there's also limitation. For us, we try to find a happy medium in there. Sometimes you have to talk a lot about that as well. ROB: In terms of adjustments, we were originally scheduled to have this conversation in person, in Austin, Texas at South by Southwest, and as we are in the midst of this global coronavirus pandemic, we're all doing this interview from home. I'm in a closet, to be candid. It's a different thing. But just for a moment, Oliver, you were invited to be there as a mentor. Is that something you've done before at South by Southwest? OLIVER: No, actually not. [laughs] I've been in Austin for the last 3 years, and last year I met some guy from Denmark and he was a mentor last year. He explained what he was doing there, and I thought it was interesting, so maybe I could help young people with my different perspective I bring as a German. Maybe I do look differently on things. On the other hand, I've been self-employed or an entrepreneur for more than 20 years. So maybe I can help some people. I just filled out the form and they picked me. [laughs] But I can't tell you what it's like because I didn't do this before. Maybe I will do it next year. SEAN: Ollie and I are both big music fans, and I actually played in a band at South by Southwest before. He was like, “Have you been to South by Southwest?” I was like, “Yeah, musically,” but the whole tech thing – and he was so excited. I was like, oh man. I felt so bad when they cancelled that. He was like, “What am I going to talk about now?” I was like, “You're a German guy there. You've got to talk about German topics.” I think that's stuff people want to know about. There's a whole different perspective there. It's not just tech in general. A lot of people talk general tech, but there's a lot of cultural differences in the tech industry here that I think he could really have provided. But I guess we have the internet now to communicate. ROB: Yes. People can reach out when they hear this and we can all talk in our closets. Or maybe we'll be out of our closets by the time we get this out there. Did they give you visibility into people signing up to talk to you and what they wanted to talk about? Or is it more so that you show up and people show up and go from there? How is that structured? OLIVER: I can't tell you. [laughs] We had a slot somewhere in a hotel for an hour I guess, or an hour and 50 minutes. I had 17 fans on the app, so 17 people were bookmarking me. Actually, I can tell. I guess you have to reserve a slot, but actually, I can't tell you if anybody already had the slot reserved. ROB: We're right here in the middle of March. At this juncture, as you are talking to your customers and potential customers and that sort of thing, how is the current state of things affecting both their mindset and maybe even how they do workshops? Are your workshops normally in person and you're planning for how to do them online? How is that changing your own business and your customer mindset? OLIVER: Wasn't it Macron, the French president, who said we are at war? [laughs] It's changing everything right now. We were well-prepared, actually. Sean, 2 weeks ago, said, “This is getting really bad, so we'd better be prepared.” We tried to get all our people home office ready 2 weeks ago when it just started to get really bad. But I have tons of customers who were not prepared for that. They're not even prepared to get their people in the home office, and they didn't think what they could do in this time. To be honest, I think this will not be a thing for 2 weeks or 3 weeks. I guess we're talking about months or years if this is getting better. We should for sure find very fast things we can change to have a workshop by Zoom or Teams and so on, but I can work with my customers even if they are not in the room. It's a little bit different, so I need my customers to be courageous enough to take such a step. I have a lot of customers who say, “Let's postpone the workshop and meet in 2 or 3 weeks. This can wait.” [laughs] I say, “Okay, go for it.” But on the other hand, there are a couple of people from the consulting business who were already setting up their remote setup. I can film the canvas and I can put the post-its there by myself. The important thing for me is to get all the information from my customers. They are driving this process, so I need all the information, and I can structure it at home in my closet. [laughs] My impression – maybe, Sean, you have your own opinion about this – I think people are getting aware. This is a special period in time, and not many people have experienced what we are experiencing right now. This forces people to be more courageous and to try out new things. This is my impression. SEAN: Yeah, I would just say that we were lucky to have enough time to try to be proactive and plan for it. Kemweb has a lot of experience in livestreaming and webinars as a core business, so it wasn't anything new to go remote. Since we do a lot of consulting for how to become more digital, it was not a scary concept for us. It was more about organization. We've noticed a lot of people who weren't ready, who are reaching out and trying to get an idea of what they can do to get ready, and I think it's also important for any business who does have any sort of strategic advantage – at this point, it's not about competition anymore. This is a global problem that nobody's ever dealt with, so I think we're just trying to take the opinion of let's try to be as helpful as we can. Let's be a resource for people. Let's do some consulting for people just so they can figure out what to do, much less take action on it. Everybody has different problems, but we have CEOs and managers, and everybody is quarantined in their house, worrying about their business. Some people are losing their business as we speak, and some people are like, “I need to figure out how to conduct business when we're here. How do we do this?” Luckily, we've just been in a position to be able to help people. For me, that's the most important thing. Just making sure businesses are running, people are being as successful as they can with the limitations, and hopefully when we get through this, everybody's going to be in a better place and not a much worse place. ROB: Right. That's an advantage I think you have in being strategic. I was talking to a client yesterday, an agency, and they have one client who's in travel, and they're very large, so that client is rightly putting a lot of initiatives on hold. But I think everybody has an inclination towards timidity in this moment. One of their clients was a beer company, and they said, “Should we cut back?” They said, “No, you can be bold right now.” SEAN: If you're not Corona. [laughter] ROB: Yes, for sure. I see it in my own feeds. People are talking about going out and buying beer right now. I think they look forward to it. So there are opportunities. OLIVER: That's what's different between Germans and Americans. Germans are buying toilet paper and noodles. [laughs] The French are hamstering red wine, and you guys go for beer. SEAN: The German term for prepping is hamstering, so there's a lot of hamster memes going on in Germany. [laughs] ROB: I had no idea. I've learned something there as well. Oliver, some people's agencies that we talk to are brand new, and some folks have been running them for a while. If you were in the U.S., we would probably talk about the 9/11 situation here. But you did navigate through the global financial crisis 13 years ago. What are some lessons that you may have encountered from that time that have helped you as you're looking at this new set of circumstances that is resetting global markets and making people worry a little bit? OLIVER: What we learned – our luck in this crisis 13 years ago was we had customers from all kinds of business areas. We were not only doing business with banks. So we survived it quite well, actually, but only because we had a widespread portfolio of customers. This is what we kept all the way from then to now. I guess this is also what maybe, or hopefully, will help us through this crisis too. We have also customers from the tourist business, so we're doing a lot of event stuff. Like Sean said, maybe now some livestreaming things. These companies are dying while we're talking. They're losing all the events, like South by, for example. All the catering people, our customers from catering. We have other customers from the public sector, for example, and we have customers from the hygienic field selling soaps. I think this is what we learned. Don't focus too much on one specific branch. 13 years ago, we were a much younger company. There were just a couple of people there. Actually, we were not flying high enough to be hit very strongly by the crisis 13 years ago, so it's hard for me to compare it this way. Sean, do you have a point here? SEAN: I wasn't with the company at the time, but I think just from experience and being in Germany at the time, it's similar in that there are companies that get financially hit and they're going to go down. There's nothing they can do. There's other companies that get hit hard, but they try to climb up. I think at this point, everybody is struggling and everybody is needing to be loud. Everybody is needing to communicate and reach out. Kemweb did video production, they did web production, so they had a rounded base of services that they could offer. If you have a diversified portfolio, then you can be agile with your approach to lots of clients. I think that's one of the reasons Kemweb has been able to be successful for so long through these ups and downs, at least in my opinion. Unless you know a secret I don't know. [laughs] That's just my outside opinion. OLIVER: Yeah, that's right. Maybe you know the new book by Simon Sinek, The Infinite Game. When I read this book, I didn't know up to the point I read the book we are in this infinite game. Since we are helping our customers, or trying to help our customers to succeed in a digital world – we did this for 20 years, actually, and every disruption or every crisis forces us to be inventive and to question our own work all the time. We did this for the last 20 years, and we came out stronger. So I guess he's right in his book. If you don't reach finite goals, to be the best in town or whatever, then you will find new approaches even for your customers, and you learn from every punch you get. You're learning. I think this is what we learned over the years. For example, when all the streaming was Flash – maybe your younger listeners remember, there was a software called Flash. Steven Jobs decided – all the streaming things we did were running on Flash from one day to the other. Nobody actually was using Flash, so our streaming business was down within a couple of months, for example. But you start finding workarounds and finding new solutions and stuff like this. If you get used to this, if you are not scared by disruptive changes – I guess such a crisis is a very, very disruptive change to everything. It's even a threat to your health, so this is a different problem. People are now really scared about their health, not only business-wise, but family and personal health-wise. So this is a different situation we have right now. ROB: That's a great point. With The Infinite Game, the objective, the point that Sinek makes is that this is not a chess game that you can win or lose. The goal is to keep playing the game. I think it could even be possible in this moment to take more encouragement. You mentioned Flash – Flash, for people who don't remember, was made by Adobe. It was Adobe's attempt to control the browser. SEAN: It was Macromedia and then it was Adobe, I think. ROB: Yeah. When Apple came out against Adobe, that was a specific headwind against Adobe, and a big part of their strategy and a big part of their business. They moved out of trying to control the browser into a bunch of other things. There's a lot of big companies that just take up space and are hard to admire, but Adobe, with having the primary paid enterprise for analytics up against Google Analytics, with the way they've managed to turn their creative suite into a subscription business, they really have figured out how to keep playing the game. I think anybody who's listening probably has even more of an advantage now because Adobe had a specific headwind; this is a headwind that we all have. Everyone's fighting this at the same time. So it's not just you. People are going to win here, and I think it can be Kemweb and it can be anyone else who's listening, if they figure out how to keep playing the game well. SEAN: Yeah. I'd look at this as an opportunity. You can look at it as negative as you want, you can get depressed about it and you can sit there and pout, or you can really try to think of the positive ends. For me, just being able to take time to spend more time with the kids when they're home, or to be able to teach them from home how I want to, or to be able to go online and spend my time with a course, learning something new – you've got to take this as positive as you can. You have to utilize your time. Everybody in the world is confined to their homes at this point, or almost, so do what you can do to benefit from that situation. I think that's really what you've got to do here. I think you will benefit in some way as long as you see it as a positive thing. OLIVER: I would like to bring up another point. It's actually about solidarity. We all have to take care of each other and the other companies. If our customers die, for example, we won't be able to do business after the crisis with them. So we also have to put up plans where we can help our customers not just on the business, but on the survival side of things. So maybe this will make people think about things they've done before or ways they saw things before. Right now we have to take care of each other worldwide, actually. ROB: Yeah, it has definitely taken that longer approach of, for people who are young, to say, “You may be young and you may not be likely to get sick, but what about someone else's parent, grandparent?” SEAN: We're getting up there. ROB: What about us on this call? Take care of us too. But really, how to think beyond yourself I hope is a lesson we can carry forward a little bit longer than just the memories of this unusual season. Oliver, Sean, when people want to track you guys down, when they want to find Kemweb, where should they go to find you? OLIVER: They should go to the internet, this new thing, you know? [laughs] ROB: That's all we got. That's all we got right now. OLIVER: You'll find us on the social media channels. We have our own podcast, actually, which is a German-American podcast form, and it's called Robot Spaceship. You need to understand a little German. I'm speaking German and Sean is speaking American English. But you'll find us on the web, www.kemweb.de. SEAN: Kemweb.de, and that's www.robotspaceship.com for the podcast. OLIVER: Sean is using his quarantine to set up an English landing page. [laughter] Isn't it, Sean? SEAN: It is. There's so much translation that happens. There's so much work. [laughs] I need to take a vacation from working because I've got so much work to do. [laughter] ROB: I think we'll all be looking to help the travel industry rebound in a little bit when we can all come out of our holes. Oliver, Sean, thank you for coming on. Thank you for sharing at this time. It's good to be able to connect over audio, at least, and share some of your learnings, lessons, and growth with the world. SEAN: Thank you. OLIVER: Thank you for the invitation. Great experience for us. ROB: Thank you so much. Maybe in Austin next year. SEAN: Definitely. OLIVER: For sure. ROB: Let's work that out. SEAN: Fingers crossed. OLIVER: On 6th Street. [laughs] ROB: All right, thanks, guys. Bye bye. Thank you for listening. The Marketing Agency Leadership Podcast is presented by Converge. Converge helps digital marketing agencies and brands automate their reporting so they can be more profitable, accurate, and responsive. To learn more about how Converge can automate your marketing reporting, email info@convergehq.com, or visit us on the web at convergehq.com.

Caren Carrasco is Senior Partner at Benjamin David Group, a 4-year-old marketing consultancy that excels at digital marketing – in particular, website creation, branding, content strategy, social media, email marketing, and paid media. Benjamin David group works with a wide range of clients, from startups focused on getting their Series A, others with their first infusion of venture capital, to larger, more mature corporations like Cirque du Soleil. The objective? To help their clients get fast, profitable growth.  Many clients are B2B. Benjamin David Group provides strategy, with a focus on figuring out how to get traction fast, and supplies the team to make it happen – either by handing off the strategic plan to the client's team or by facilitating the hiring of an appropriate team. “It doesn't make sense to pay a consultant to execute,” Caren says, except maybe at the very beginning when the marketing structure is not yet established. To maintain close contact, at least one member of Caren's agency will work in-office at the client's site. Except COVID-19 has changed things up. Caren explains how BDG is handling the imposed transition to virtual, the continued importance of weekly contact with their clients, the impact of an established and clear cut workflow, and why detailed meeting documentation is especially critical at this time.  Caren started her career in loyalty and email marketing, and worked in a variety of industries. At Luxury Retreats, a villa rental company headquartered in Montreal, she drove customer journeys, learned “fast and agile” marketing, and worked closely with Salesforce. Salesforce invited her and her Luxury Retreat co-worker, Benjamin David, to speak at Connections 2014 on building effective client life-cycle programs, engagement strategies, and campaign automation. Realizing the depth of their knowledge, Ben and Caren decided to form a marketing consultancy, and set up their first office . . . in a local Starbucks. (This year, Salesforce Connections 2020, originally scheduled in Chicago for May 4 through May 6, will be a virtual experience.) In this interview, Caren introduces a powerful market targeting tool, RFM database segmentation. RFM identifies different buyer groups so that marketers can apply group-specific strategies and optimize repeat business. RFM is an acronym for recency, frequency, and monetary – where recency is how recently the buyer made a purchase; frequency is the number of times the buyer has purchased; and monetary is the dollar value of the purchase. Each category of buyer type needs to be approached in a way congruent with their buying history. Caren admits that BDG does not provide all the services a client might need. Instead, they work with a network of trusted partners, many of them curated through networking at industry events. Over the past 4 years, the agency has actually invested in 8 of its clients, through either sweat equity or capital investment. This type of partnering is something BDG would like to further explore since a client's success then becomes BDG's success.  Caren and Ben can be reached on the company website at: www.benjamin-david.com or on LinkedIn. Transcript Follows: ROB: Welcome to the Marketing Agency Leadership Podcast. I'm your host, Rob Kischuk, and I am joined today by Caren Carrasco, Senior Partner at Benjamin David Group based in Montreal, Canada. Welcome to the podcast, Caren. CAREN: Thank you, Rob. ROB: Fantastic to have you here. Why don't you kick us off by telling us about Benjamin David Group and where your firm excels? CAREN: Sure. Benjamin David Group, we're a marketing consultancy based in Montreal. We do everything that has to do with digital marketing, from website creation, branding, content strategy, social media, email marketing, paid media. We excel at those verticals. Our clientele can go from bigger corporations like Cirque du Soleil, which is a very well-known brand, or we also work with startups. The startup scene in Montreal and Toronto is very big right now, so we find a niche to work with funded startups – startups that are either chasing a Series A or that just got funded and they need a marketing arm to execute and start having traction. So, we help them with their marketing efforts. We have been in business for about 4 years now, and we're a team of marketing consultants. Our main goal is to help our clients with fast, profitable growth – not only to help them grow, but do it as fast as we can. That's a little bit of the nature of the startup clients that we have. They need to show results fast. ROB: Now more than ever, startups are asked to actually prove that their economics are good, and it sounds like you have this sweet spot where you're coming in in that in-between time where there is something there, there is something worth marketing and something to prove, still. They're not at the point maybe past a Series B, C, D, E, whatever, where they would bring in a CMO and a bigtime team. When they're looking to get to that Series A, what are some of the key metrics that you're driving and some of the key channels that are working for them to get there? CAREN: We work with quite a few B2B clients. What we focus on at the very beginning is to really set up a model where we can track what is the recipe to start growing. The recipe will have a mix between paid media, of course content will be present everywhere, but our first approach is to try to understand the formula to start driving traction, either through account-based marketing or gaining leads through gated content on different platforms. We actually act as their de facto CMO. We not only bring the strategy, but we also bring the muscle, the team to execute. Once we find that formula, we have two approaches. Either we hand the strategy to our client so that they can execute with their team, or we can take the executive with us and help them through the hiring process so that at some point, once they have their marketing team, we can hand that execution to them because it doesn't make sense to pay a consultant to execute. It makes sense at the very beginning when you're creating the pillars and having the foundation of your marketing practice, but after that, our goal is to really make our client autonomous, and they can use us for direction and strategy. That's a little bit of our approach. ROB: You mentioned the CMO. Probably not typically a full-time CMO, but probably a lot of times actually a fractional marketing team. So, I'd imagine there's a point where you are incrementally replacing yourselves, and sometimes you're able probably to bring – do you have one super marketer that's assigned to a client? Or are you giving them a thin slice of a full-on marketing team? Maybe two, three, five people, where they couldn't imagine having five full-timers on staff, but with you, they get a piece of five different expertises that they wouldn't have. CAREN: Exactly. We have a few clients on that model, and it's very effective for them because, to your point, they're not getting only one person. They're getting a fraction of our team. Another thing that we do with our clients is that we have an office presence with them. We make sure that we have a seat in their office so that we can be with them, and it's not a remote collaboration; we're actually there to be part of the key decisions, to also train their future team if they're at the point of hiring. It's a very, very effective model, and it helps fast-track things and make sure that we're aligned with our business objectives. ROB: The in-person model is definitely a differentiator, and I think it probably distinguishes you from people who might even outsource a lot of their execution to maybe somewhere far away. It's often so beneficial to have someone who understands intrinsically the context of the company, the context of the location, and relationships with the team. Originally, you and I were scheduled to meet up in Austin, Texas for South by Southwest, and as everyone is probably well aware by now, that was cancelled. That in-person conversation for us was cancelled. I'd imagine some of your in-person conversations – perhaps all of them – have also been cancelled and that seat at the office is empty along with the rest of them. How have you thought about adapting that personal integration into the team operating in this coronavirus, social distancing, remote working environment? CAREN: Specifically, for South by Southwest – and this is a small collaboration that I did with another company through a webinar – there's still so many things that we can do even if events have been cancelled. We still have access to the attendee list for, for example, South by Southwest or any event. So, I think companies can still try to make those meetings happen, just not personally, but virtually. So that's one way you can still get the advantage of the whole event. With our clients, we're keeping the communications fluid through the tools that we have. We're making sure that every week, we're in touch with them. Because it's a situation that is not only on our side, but on their side as well, it has been very positive, the transition of not being in office, but making sure that we are online and available through different platforms and making sure that we have touchpoints with them. Actually, one of the things that we have at BDG is that we work with Jira and Confluence and we make sure that every single thing that happens for an internal meeting/external meeting, it's documented in meeting notes. That way, even if you're not physically there or if there's a meeting that was held between certain people, we make sure everyone is in the loop by giving access to those meeting notes. So far, with this whole crisis, I think we have managed well with our clients. ROB: That's really interesting. Jira and Confluence are pretty sophisticated and capable tools. Kind of a Basecamp on steroids sometimes. CAREN: Yeah. Thanks to us being very diligent on having our setup with those tools, it's actually how and why we are well-positioned to work remotely with our clients because we have a very clear workflow and process and methodology. So, I'm happy that we put that in place so that now we can actually work efficiently remotely. ROB: Excellent. You mentioned that you started BDG around 4 years ago. Tell me about that origin story. How did you come to start a business that you've now been glad to grow and work with some really excellent clients? CAREN: My expertise as a marketer was with loyalty and email marketing specifically. I worked in different industries, from luxury travel to loyalty. I worked at Aeroplan, which is the loyalty program of Air Canada. Here in Montreal, I worked at Luxury Retreats, which is a villa rental company that got acquired by Airbnb a couple of years ago. I was lucky enough to have the opportunity to work at a startup at Luxury Retreats and go through what it means to work fast and agile and where speed is everything. That's where I met my co-founder, Benjamin. We were very knowledgeable in everything that has to do with the customer journey and lifecycle. We worked closely with Salesforce. At the time it was ExactTarget. The people at Salesforce were very impressed with the way we were driving customer lifecycles with Luxury Retreats, to the point that they invited us to Connections and to give speaking sessions in Indianapolis and to basically speak to their clients about everything that they can do from a marketing automation standpoint. At that point, I think it was the very beginning of thinking that we could actually have a practice out of consulting, because we were very knowledgeable in everything that has to do with customer journeys. At that point, Ben had been at Luxury Retreats for 16 years, and I was working by that time at Aeroplan. At some point we got together and he was the one approaching me to say, “Caren, let's create a consultancy on marketing. We're very knowledgeable.” At the time I was like, “How are we going to find clients? How do we grow this?” So, we started together. I quit my job. We started working at a Starbucks, no office. Fast forward 4 years, we're a team of 20 consultants and we have big clients such as Cirque du Soleil and a very healthy pipeline. It was an interesting decision, but it was very rewarding to see how based on the knowledge you have and the expertise, you can actually build a business out of it and grow it. ROB: Congratulations on all of that. It seems like a lot of your success is rooted in some very – I see with Jira and Confluence, and then also with ExactTarget, there's this deep technical competency that seems to resonate throughout and elevates the work to a level of consultancy and not just some sort of lightweight content shop. Now, what I'd like to dig into that goes even deeper to that technical capability is you have prepared presentations on something called RFM segmentation. Tell us what RFM segmentation is, what we need to know, and how we should be deploying it. CAREN: When we worked at Luxury Retreats and the reason why Salesforce was very impressed about what we were doing in marketing automation and lifecycle journeys was the segmentation that we put behind it. Basically, RFM segmentation is a way for you to segment your database and monetize it and get the most out of repeat business. This is a model that is very easy to implement for businesses for retail and travel. Basically, what you're trying to do is have a very specific strategy for people that have purchased with you one time or more than one time and have a different approach for each one, because you shouldn't be targeting in the same way a first-time buyer as a three-time buyer. That will help you with your incentive strategy, how you give up promotions, how you incentivize your database to keep buying more. RFM stands for recency, frequency, and monetary – recency, how recently the purchase was; frequency, how many times the buyer has purchased; and monetary, the value. In a nutshell, you assign scores from let's say 1 to 5 to one of those dimensions, and you will have different clusters of segments that you can target differently. Think about having a big grid of different segments where you are going to have your VIPs, which are the 5-5-5s. Let's say someone that made a purchase yesterday over $1,000 and they have purchased more than three times. The way you target a 5-5-5 is very different than the way you target a 1-1-1, someone that maybe had purchased over a year ago for a very low amount of money and they just purchased once. This really helps you focus your efforts and understand how you should be moving your low-engaged segments through your high-engaged segments. It's a very, very strategic and detailed approach, and it's a methodology that we have put in practice with different clients, as I was saying, in the retail and travel industry with very good results in terms of repeat business. ROB: I think that makes sense, and it makes even more sense with your background in loyalty because as I think about you talking about a 5-5-5, I think about the different airline status programs, even some credit card programs. It seems like there are entire programs, your Delta Platinums and Diamonds and I don't know how high it goes, that are all about capturing the brain of a 5-5-5. CAREN: Exactly. Also, because you don't have infinite budget to give incentives to everyone, that's why the RFM segmentation helps to put exactly where you should be putting your efforts. And at the same time, not everything is going to be a monetary incentive. Sometimes recency, like the time where you're targeting someone, is the variable that will make you move the needle. Through analysis, you can understand when is the right time to send a communication – for example, an email – to a customer that just made a purchase for the first time so that you can convince them at the right time to make the second purchase. It's not about maybe the incentive, but to understand that, for example, on Day 72, that's where your database is the perfect timing to trigger a second purchase. ROB: Very interesting. Does this have any applications then into something like a Cirque du Soleil or even into some of the startups that you work with? CAREN: Yeah, absolutely. We implement it on different clients. Any type of business that has a repeat behavior that it's a product or a service that you can buy over and over again can use RFM segmentation. ROB: So if you're in something like Cirque du Soleil, you might know that someone's going to buy every time you come to town or they're going to buy – I don't even know if there are higher packages available that you can get them into. But you could actually design marketing around the knowledge that someone's definitely going to go and what they're going to buy, versus they might come let's say every couple of years. CAREN: Exactly. It's the same thing as in travel, for the travel industry. Depending on your niche, you know when is the right time for someone to start thinking of their next travel. Because you know that information, which is your recency factor, you know exactly the right time to push for the next trip. At the same time, for most of the businesses that I have been working with, there is a truth in the data, which is once you convert a first-time buyer into a second-time buyer, you basically have them for life. If you make sure that you convert a one-time to a two-time, to get them to repeat to three times, four times, depending on your industry, is not that difficult. The big step that you have to focus on at the beginning of the program is how you make a first-time buyer buy a second time. After that, if you give good service and the product is good, they're going to be happy and they're going to keep buying from you. So that's what I usually recommend to our clients and where we usually focus at the beginning, to transform the first-time buyers into second-time buyers. ROB: Suppose you've solved the initial part of getting somebody to be a repeat buyer. Are there industries where you can actually impact the recency, frequency, or monetization of the customers? It seems like in some cases, particularly in travel, moving someone up from a one, a two, to three, to four, to five on the monetization scale, for instance, would be a real game-changer for a business. CAREN: Exactly. For example, if you master the recency and frequency and now you are close in the window for them to book faster and you're making them book with you multiple times, then you're viable to start to tackle monetary, how you can get them to spend more money with you. And there's different marketing strategies that you can do around that. ROB: What's an example of a way you might be able to move somebody up the monetization or frequency scale, for that matter? CAREN: We did a very interesting promotion once at Luxury Retreats. We were giving free flights to anyone that would be booking for a certain period of time for certain locations. It was a very interesting way to move people, first of all from first-time buyers to repeat buyers, and also to increase their monetary value because we needed to lock them for a certain number of nights. That promotion turned out to be one of the most successful promotions in this particular niche. This is luxury travel. So, you're getting a free flight, and the gain for the company is right away because you're not putting money upfront. You're only giving away the incentive once they book with you. That's a promotion that is still alive, and it was very, very successful from an RFM perspective because we were tackling the three variables at a time. ROB: That's fascinating. It seems like in the case of luxury travel, in particular, one of the things you may be able to do is actually change someone's concept of themselves as being the sort of person who does this sort of travel. If you can get them to think of themselves that way, it probably becomes something that feeds itself a little bit. CAREN: Yeah. In particular with luxury travel, incentives have a different take because those are brands that don't get discounted. It's a luxury item, so you don't offer discounts. Everything that you're offering them, either to book faster or to increase the basket size, is actually on giving them a better experience, to upgrade their experience, to give them something more. So it's a different way to see the incentive and how you can make them increase their monetary value. ROB: Fantastic. Caren, when you think about your 4-year journey so far building Benjamin David Group, what are some things that you might do differently if you were starting over? Some lessons learned, if you will. CAREN: I think as we positioned ourselves as a growth partner of our clients, one of the things that we have been doing – it's not something that I would do differently, but I think it's knowledge that I wish I'd had since Day 1: to build a network of trusted partners that I can always go to, to enhance the service that I provide to my clients. Just to give you an example, we don't provide PR services. We're very focused on digital marketing. But we have a lot of clients that at some point, because of the different marketing strategies that we have with them, there's a right time for them, for example, to engage with a PR agency. Sometimes we don't have the right partner to send to our clients. So I think to have a very strong network of different service providers that don't necessarily have to do with my core business, but that I can always give to my clients so that they can continue with that execution is something that I would like to have curated faster during this journey. ROB: What have you found to be some of the keys to establishing those connections? It sounds like you have a lot of that in place now. CAREN: A lot of these connections and partnerships that we have developed right now have been based off networking, to be honest. In every event and every opportunity that we attend, there are other players attending there. Just to give you an example, at South by Southwest, there are multiple agencies going there. Myself, I was booked pretty much the whole week with other agencies where my services are complementary to them or where they actually complement my services. So the best way we have curated those relationships has been through networking. ROB: I think another question that comes into play with that sort of partnership is: how do you think about, when you're working with a client, whether that relationship is an introduction and a referral or whether it's a white label service or just generally provided under the scope of BDG? CAREN: The way that we have managed, it depends on the needs of the client. Also, it depends on our direction on the overall service. Sometimes we just connect the client with the service provider and they can work with them directly and do whatever they need to do. But there are other instances where it makes sense for us to be involved, just to give direction to this third party, and then they will be working with us behind the scenes and we will be assisting them with the direction and getting all the information from the client, and then we're able to brief the third party. So it really depends on the mandate and also where the client sits, where they want to move forward. But both angles have worked with us. ROB: I can imagine some startup where you are the entire marketing arm of the organization, they probably just want you there to solve any marketing problem possible and to bring solutions to the table. Is that part of the mix? CAREN: Exactly, and that's a big difference. For example, I'm just thinking from a startup. That's the difference between hiring for example five different freelancers – let's say that a startup goes, "I'm going to hire someone for social media, someone for SEO, someone for email marketing,” and so on; the client will still have to have someone to manage those five professionals and make sure that people are not working in silos and bring them all together with the direction. The difference with us is that we are that connection. We have the team and we have the specialists. The client just needs to make individual connections with the specialist because everything is centralized through our service. I think that's a big advantage for us to work in that way, mostly with our startup clients. ROB: Caren, what do you think is coming up next for BDG that we should be looking forward to, or maybe some lines of service that you're doing where you see some trends emerging? CAREN: Other things I would do at BDG – we do digital marketing, but we also have a small venture arm. Whenever it makes sense for us, we do invest in some of our clients in a mix between sweat equity and capital. That's something that we would like to explore even more. We have made eight investments during these past 4 years. Moving forward in 2020-2021, we really want to keep developing that ability to invest in companies where we provide the marketing services, but because we're also investors of the company, the dots are aligned, so our clients' success will be also our success. We want to keep exploring and get deeper into our investment arm. ROB: Very good. Any of those companies that we should be looking out for that you'd like to plug while we're chatting? CAREN: Absolutely. One of the companies that we're very, very proud of how they have success – it's a marketplace. They're called GoMaterials. Basically it's a marketplace between landscapers and vendors. We have been helping them since Day 1. It's a very, very interesting concept. They are disrupting an industry that is very old-fashioned, where everything is done through paper, and they're bringing technology to the industry, which is where they are succeeding in the space. So that's one of our investments that we're very, very proud of. ROB: Very, very interesting. That is probably a hot one right now, at least where we are in Atlanta. Landscaping is considered one of those necessary services where business is going to keep on humming except for maybe some people would pull back. But at the same time, probably having an online service to handle some of the logistics is better than going in person for a lot of people. CAREN: Absolutely. They have a platform where everything is centralized, so it's going to be a big, big change for the industry. The way that we provide and we support them is we have very good experience with marketplaces. Back at Luxury Retreats, it was basically a marketplace between the hosts and the guests. They're basically doing the same thing, but for landscapers. All industries that have been managed in an old-fashioned way, whoever can disrupt that and bring technology and make that marketplace unified has a winning angle to gain that market, and that's what they're doing. ROB: Fantastic. Caren, when people want to find you and want to find Benjamin David Group, where should they look? CAREN: Our website, www.benjamin-david.com. Also, we're very, very active on LinkedIn. I would say that our main focus in terms of content is through LinkedIn. So either our website or our LinkedIn page. That's where they can find us. ROB: Fantastic. Caren, thank you so much for coming on the podcast, and best wishes to you and BDG, and hopefully we can connect up in person at your first South by Southwest in 2021. Hopefully we can make that happen. CAREN: Absolutely. Thank you, Rob, for the invite. ROB: Thank you so much. Thank you for listening. The Marketing Agency Leadership Podcast is presented by Converge. Converge helps digital marketing agencies and brands automate their reporting so they can be more profitable, accurate, and responsive. To learn more about how Converge can automate your marketing reporting, email info@convergehq.com, or visit us on the web at convergehq.com.

John 5 returns to Talkin' Rock as he's currently out on tour with Queensryche. What a bill!  I had a chance to see the show last night, and it's a killer double bill! Since the show was in John's hometown of Detroit, he was nice enough to come by the studio and do this interview in person, with a film crew and his sister and brother-in-law. We cover lots of topics - the new Zombie album, his thoughts on his old boss, David Lee Roth, touring with KISS, a story of a high school teacher telling him he'd never make it and his live Invasion album that's coming out. How and why did he don the makeup? What happened the first time he met Rob? What were his thoughts at the passing of Neil Peart? As everyone knows, he's a giant KISS fan, so we talk a little about them, RIFF Fest and more.  Al Beck finally decides to come to work and do rock news. Lots going on today including news on Green Day, Ozzy, KISS playing America's Got Talent, Tommy Lee on the "Goldberg's", Foo Fighters news and a band that has this killer app to hear their new song. That is wild! Chase from Chase Engel and the Night Shift round out the podcast. They're an up and coming band, playing a big show with Sponge on February 22nd at Diesel Concert Lounge. He tells me about doing some shows with Buckcherry and some really exciting 2020 plans, as well as their connection to the band Tesla.  Thank you so much for listening!! 5 star ratings go a long way on Apple and iTunes. -Meltdown- https://john-5.com/main/ https://wrif.com/podcasts/talkin-rock-with-meltdown/ https://www.chaseengelandthenightshift.com/

In this episode, I get with Rob Dauster over at NBC Sports and we chat about a few different topics. We open with 15 minutes on Kobe Bryant, then we move on to discuss Coach K yelling at the Duke fans like a crazy person because it's hilarious.  Finally, we spend the majority of the podcast talking about prospects. Who has impressed Rob? What do we think of Anthony Edwards? What do we think of Memphis' guys? Of guys like Saddiq Bey, Daniel Oturu, and the players at Gonzaga? All that and a lot more. 

Today on the Wasted Ammo podcast we interrogate Rob Pincus. Most of our audience will know exactly who Rob is but if you don’t, Rob is a professional firearms instructor, author, and consultant. He and his staff at I.C.E. Training Company provide services to military, law enforcement, private security and students interested in self-defense, conducting well over 50 courses a year in over 40 locations. In 2005, Rob began production of the Personal Defense Firearms DVD Series which evolved into the Personal Defense Network, an online resource for training information. Recently, he spearheaded the 2A rally in DC and continues to fight for our right to keep and bear arms in a professional and responsible manner. Who is Rob? What kind of gear and tools does he recommend? What are his personal convictions when it comes to firearms? How can we, as concealed carriers, support the 2A? Lets find out. Enjoy! Show-notes can be found at Wastedammo.com/293 Become a Black Site member at Patreon.com/wastedammo

Does your brand have a written social media strategy? If not you need one as it’ll unlock a new area of growth and clarity for your brand. Gary Gorski, Founder of Wolverine Studios, joins Rob Cressy to talk about his experience in working with Rob in building out a social media strategy for his sports simulation game brand. What were the results he saw from working together? What was it like working with Rob? What were the things he learned? If you want to know the benefits of creating a written social media strategy then this episode is for you. - In each episode of The Sports Marketing Huddle, Rob Cressy, Founder of Bacon Sports, gives a forward-thinking perspective on some of the hottest topics in the world of sports marketing and then gives actionable advice on how you can implement it into your business. Our goal of the podcast is to create the best sports marketing podcast and take The Sports Marketing Huddle up to #1 on iTunes. One way you can help support the show is by subscribing to The Sports Marketing Huddle on iTunes and letting your friends who are in the sports and marketing worlds know about it. Your feedback is super important to us. We want to make sure that we deliver value for you and make this the best sports marketing show possible. You can connect with Rob & today’s guest on social media and let us know what you think: Rob Cressy - LinkedIn: /cressy/ - Twitter: @RobCressy - Instagram: @rob_cressy - Facebook: /RobCressyBiz/ - Website: www.baconsports.com Gary Gorski - Twitter: @wolverinestudio - Instagram: @wolverinestudiosgames - Website: www.wolverinestudios.com Other Awesome Content: Don’t have a written social media strategy? We can help you with that. All you’ve got to do is head to EasySocialStrategy.com. Have you ever wanted to create a podcast but didn’t know where to start? If so head to LaunchingPodcasts.com. I created a step-by-step course to help you easily launch a podcast. Check out the Bacon Sports Podcast Network where we mix together sports, business, and personal development with the goal of inspiring, educating, and entertaining. Check out Growing Bold on YouTube, Bold Worldwide CEO Brian Cristiano’s video journey of building a $100 million agency.

Rob Greenfield is a world-renowned adventurer and activist and is embarking on his next big project, Food Freedom. Through Rob's extreme projects from cycling across the USA on a bamboo bicycle for sustainability (three times), to dumpster diving in thousands of grocery store dumpsters to raise awareness about food waste and hunger, to wearing 30 days worth of trash to create a visual of how much trash just one American creates, he has inspired countless people to positively change. Rob has been featured on thousands of media outlets around the world, hosted shows on Discovery Channel and has given two TEDx talks. You can see his media page here. In this episode we cover: Rob's journey from nature-loving kid, to materialistic teen, to environmental changemaker Some of Rob's favorite adventures and experiments How his choice to give up his computer caused him to question his impact in the world Rob's best advice for those just getting started in eco-conscious living Rob Greenfield Online: RobGreenfield.tv Social Media: Facebook | Twitter | LinkedIn Rob's current project Food Freedom The Trash Me experiment where Rob wore all the trash he produced for 30 days Some of my favorite blog articles by Rob What is My Heart’s Deepest Desire? How to Create an Environmental Activism Campaign One of Rob's bamboo bike tours: Goodfluence Tour Suggestions & Green Resource from Rob: Take 12 hours off from devices each day if you can and go tech-free for 1 full day each week. Learn about Winona LaDuke and other inspiring people at RobGreenfield.tv/people Learn about educational and moving films at RobGreenfield.tv/films Check out the project, film and books from the Story of Stuff Books: Anything by Gandhi and MLK (access Gandhi's writing free at Gandhi Serve Foundation) The Moneyless Man and other books by Mark Boyle

Want holiday merch? We've got you covered #podcastersftw! Get yours today and support Podcasting and give that perfect podcasting gift! Quick Episode Summary: Intro :07 PROMO 1: Fighting Through 1:29 How you can be featured by Libsyn! 2:06 PROMO 2: Ghost Press 3:46 Audio Rockin' Libsyn Podcast: Chasing Ghosts. On Scooters. In Bars. 4:15 Elsie and Rob Conversation 7:51 The history of how long it took to get this Pandora deal going! PR announcements about Pandora The bottom line on what you need to know to get your podcast into Pandora How many people listened to our Pandora announcement when we published to the app? Data from Rob What does Pandora mean for podcast growth? Will Pandora be able to make podcast suggestions? The Poddie awards on SNL and what Rob and Elsie think about it with some insight from Steve Goldstein's article Elsie makes amends Where have YOU been via Alain 35:46 Apple Podcasts and what to expect to get your podcast approved, it seems it's now 5 business days MINIMUM Pocketcasts released 7.0! Apple is probing sudden declines in their listener stats A not so good article on Medium about the percentage of podcasts that have ads The Whiskycast is coming to Pittsburgh for a whisky panel and a good cause The 2018 People's Choice Awards Pop Podcast! If you want to change the title of your show, should you start a brand new feed or should I try to convert the current feed? Are Thursdays a better day to publish than Saturday? How should Elsie showcase information about apps and workflows on recording remotely? NPR is running a student podcasting contest and have published a simple guide for starting a podcast Worst email of the week PROMO 3: Comics Alternative 1:02:50 Stats, stats, stats! Geographic and user agents Featured Podcast Promos + Audio Fighting Through Ghost Press Comics Alternative Chasing Ghosts. On Scooters. In Bars Alain Guillot from the Alain Guillot Podcast One of the best podcast apps, Pocket Casts, just got a big redesign Recording remotely on Facebook Recording remotely on Twitter Recording remotely on Instagram NPR is running a student podcasting contest Starting your podcast guide for students Thank you to Nick from MicMe for our awesome intro! Podcasting Articles and Links mentioned by Rob and Elsie Our SpeakPipe Feedback page! Leave us feedback :) The Poddie Awards on SNL Did SNL just set podcasting back? Harris from Sleep Whispers Bijay from Inspiring Talk Where is Libsyn Going? (In Real Life) Podcon in Seattle Podfest in Orlando Proclaim 19 NAB in Las Vegas HELP US SPREAD THE WORD! We'd love it if you could please share #TheFeed with your twitter followers. Click here to post a tweet! If you dug this episode head on over to Apple Podcasts and kindly leave us a rating, a review and subscribe! Ways to subscribe to The Feed: The Official Libsyn Podcast Click here to subscribe via Apple Podcasts Click here to subscribe via RSS You can also subscribe via Stitcher FEEDBACK + PROMOTION You can ask your questions, make comments and create a segment about podcasting for podcasters! Let your voice be heard. Download the FREE The Feed App for iOS and Android (you can send feedback straight from within the app) Call 412 573 1934 Email thefeed@libsyn.com Use our SpeakPipe Page! Alain feedback 35:46 PROMO 3: 1:02:50  

Welcome to another episode of the Disruptive Entrepreneur Podcast. In today's episode, Rob interviews entrepreneur, businessman, philanthropist and proud Scotsman, Sir Tom Hunter. Tom is Scotland's first home-grown billionaire and is known as Britain's most generous tycoon. In 1998 after selling Tom's first business, Sports Division for a cool £290m, he started The Hunter Foundation. Helping to fund start-ups and grow business education. The foundation has since donated millions to help support education and entrepreneurial projects in Scotland. Tune in to hear, Rob and Tom discuss and share their own views, on Business, charity, entrepreneurialism and the value and importance of giving back to those less fortunate. KEY TAKEAWAYS Rob: You're known as Britain's most generous tycoon, why do you think that is? Tom: When I sold my first business 20 years ago I was only 37. I had already made more money that I thought I would ever make and it was at that time myself and my wife made some decisions. The first was that I wanted to stay in business, but as a family, we didn't need any more money. So we set up the Tom Hunter Foundation. Rob: What are the differences between learning in the classroom and learning by going out there and doing it? Tom: I really value learning from practitioners. If we're going to learn about entrepreneurs, I want to hear from an entrepreneur. MBA's are enough by themselves, you need to have done it also. I'm always listening to the person that's been there and done it, learn by doing. It's a mixture of learning in the classroom and having the experience to draw from. We like to talk about successes, but the best learning is through your own failures. Rob: Can you share some of your failures? Tom: During the financial crisis we were heavily invested, maybe over-invested and we didn't see it coming. It was my fault and we lost an awful lot of money. But the learnings from that time have benefited us in moving forward. But look, I've never met an entrepreneur that hasn't made a mistake, an entrepreneurs journey is up, down, left and right. But it's how we deal with failure that really marks us out. Aim to fail quick and fail cheap, and then get back on the bus. But Fail with some humility so people will back you next time. Rob: Best advice you've ever received? - It's too much wealth to have, go and find your purpose. Rob: If you lost it all and had to start again, what would you do? - I'd find partnerships and   Rob What would you change in the world? - I would have more practitioners in government to help write and advise on policies. Use that knowledge to better the country. Rob: Does money make you more or less happy? - Yes, money makes you happy if you give it away. Rob: What does the word disruptive mean to you? - We want to back disruptors, both in our foundation and our West Coast Capital, money making side. Disruptors are people who the status quo is not enough, they look at the world as it is and say no. They look to make a change and a difference. BEST MOMENTS “We are trying to do something good with our money, whilst we're still alive” “You can't connect the dots looking forward; you can only connect them looking backwards” “My dad is my hero, he made millions and lost millions, made a bit and lost a bit, but he has always had an amazing talent” “Our investment philosophy is backing the entrepreneur” “We want to encourage more entrepreneurs starting and scaling their businesses” “There are some things that people are naturally born with, but with coaching, we can accelerate our skills and make a difference, we all need mentors, coaches and teachers” “People should learn by doing, talk to your customers and learn from your mistakes” “What you've been through is invaluable and it's not just the money that can help people, it's the knowledge too. You need to find ways of leveraging your time so that you can work out what it is your passionate about so that you can help others.” “Leave your kids enough money to do something but not enough for them to do nothing” VALUABLE RESOURCES https://robmoore.com/ https://robmoore.com/podcast/ The Disruptive Entrepreneur Community https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Carnegie https://www.thehunterfoundation.co.uk Malcolm Gladwell Matthew Syed David Duke Andrew Carnegie ABOUT THE HOST Rob Moore is an author of 9 business books, 5 UK bestsellers, holds 3 world records for public speaking, entrepreneur, property investor and property educator. Author of global bestseller “Life Leverage” Host of UK's No.1 business podcast “The Disruptive Entrepreneur” “If you don't risk anything, you risk everything” CONTACT METHOD Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/robmooreprogressive/?ref=br_rs LinkedIn - https://uk.linkedin.com/in/robmoore1979 ABOUT GUEST Sir Tom Hunter is Scotland's first ever home-grown billionaire, with an estimated wealth of £1.05 billion. Tom set up his first business after graduating from Strathclyde University as he was in his own words "unemployable". With a £5,000 loan from his grocer father Campbell and matching funds from a bank he started selling trainers from the back of a van. Hunter built the business into Europe's largest independent retailer. Tom is a businessman, entrepreneur, and philanthropist, and along with his wife, Marion they established The Hunter Foundation in 1998 after selling Tom's first business, Sports Division for a cool £290m. The foundation has donated millions to supporting educational and entrepreneurial projects in Scotland. In 2005 Tom received a knighthood for “services to Philanthropy and to Entrepreneurship in Scotland”. and In October 2013, Tom was awarded the Carnegie Medal of Philanthropy. Described by some as the “Nobel Prize for philanthropy”, the medal recognises those who use their private wealth for public good and is awarded biannually to global figures leading the way in this field. CONTACT METHOD https://www.thehunterfoundation.co.uk/ Twitter - @SirTomHunter See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Listen now: Clive Chafer has been a namer for almost as long as naming has been a profession. In 1987, he started at the firm now known as Lexicon, where he helped develop a few names you definitely know, like PowerBook for Apple and Outback for Subaru. He went on to eventually become creative director at Master-McNeil in Berkeley, California, and he now runs his own firm: Namebrand. Clive also does freelance naming work. Clive and I dove right into a conversation about his process for name generation, which led us to a discussion of "sound symbolism." I brought up the bouba/kiki effect (but couldn't remember what it was called) and Clive pointed out that, "whether it's consonants or vowels, you can build something just on sound symbolism that will have certain tonalities and associations, even if the brief is very abstract. We linguists are not left entirely adrift." Clive talked about his "wonderful thesaurus" from the late 60's (so good luck getting a copy). Clive Chafer's well-used Roget's Thesaurus He listed a handful of other online ad offline tools* he uses while naming, e.g.: Wikipedia Foreign-language dictionaries (online) Forvo.com (to hear native speakers pronounce foreign words) OneAcross.com (a crossword dictionary, especially useful when length is a consideration) Clive talked about keeping the creative juices flowing by stepping away from a project for a bit and exercising, going out with friends, or doing a DIY project. He listed a few pitfalls young namers (and more experienced ones) can fall victim to, and proposed some solutions. Lastly, Clive shared his favorite thing about being a namer: "It keeps the brain young." If you want to learn more about Clive or get in touch with him, check out wemakenames.com. You should also check out the interview Clive did with Robert Siegel on NPR's All Things Considered. Below, you'll find the full transcript of the episode (may contain typos and/or transcription errors). Click above to listen to the episode, and subscribe on iTunes to hear every episode of How Brands Are Built. * To see a complete list of online resources listed by namers in episodes of How Brands Are Built, see our Useful List: Online/software resources used by professional namers. Rob: Clive, thank you so much for making time to speak with me. I'd love to just talk about process, and given how long you've been doing this, I figure if anyone has a process—I'm talking specifically about when you sit down to start generating ideas—where do you start? Clive: I knew in advance you were going to ask me this, and I had to sit and think for a moment about whether or not there is a start point, or indeed a process. Yes, there is a starting point. And, having been a project manager as well as a creative, I know a little bit more now about how those two things work together, and the brief is incredibly important in how well the creative process develops and how well it goes. And it may well be proved to be—as you probably know—way off track after the first or second round of creative. Back to the drawing board. But in terms of the actual creative process, I start narrow and broaden out. So if I get a brief, whether it's couched in single-word naming directions or explained content, I will draw up a list of words and word parts that I think might be useful. Now how do I get to those? Well, partly from the words that are already given to me in the in the brief. And then from there, broaden out to closely associated ideas, concepts, and directions. And I think, yes, I definitely use the thesaurus, but it really depends on the nature of the project whether the thesaurus is going to be a useful tool or not. Rob: Right. Clive: If you get a name, this rarely happens, but if you get a brief that says, "This name needs to have no content whatsoever," because perhaps it's a name for a company and they don't want to be tied to any one activity. Rob: Sure, a name like Avaya, or something ,  a coined... Clive: Yeah, or Hulu or something like that. You know if you're going to do that then there's not a lot of point in going to the thesaurus. I mean, the truth is that most names have something about them that does relate back to what they do. You just mentioned Avaya. If you kind of pick that apart for sound, the idea of 'a way,' "via," is buried in there somewhere. And so the idea that a buyer is a communications company and that it's providing the means the "via" for communications. Okay. Yeah. You know, it's not too many steps away from the thesaurus. Rob: Right. Clive: So sometimes, even when it seems like they want to take a step away from real-world vocabulary, you still can start with that kind of mindset, if you like—that kind of relatively pedestrian research that says, "Let's put together as many words that word parts that are relevant to this as possible, and let's use those as the springboard," rather than trying to find something entirely meaningless out of nothing, out of whole cloth, if you like. Rob: Yeah, I find that that's really hard to do. You end up sort of wandering aimlessly. Clive: Well yes. Now this is where, going back to Lexicon, I met the chap who was their kind of linguistics expert. His name's Will Leben—lovely chap—who I've come to know as a friend as well, and the exquisite irony of Will Leben is that he is almost entirely deaf. He is a linguist who doesn't really hear language the same way that we do. Plus which, his specialism was what they call "sound symbolism" or what he called "sound symbolism." And he really developed the idea of sound symbolism and it's not a particularly deep science, but short, high sounds tend to suggest things that are smaller, and larger, longer, deeper sounds tend to suggest things that are bigger. So, "Pixi," has to be something small. You don't know what it is, necessarily, although obviously a pixie is a little creature. But sound symbolism is a somewhat disputed area of linguistics and it's very culturally confined, but it does work as a way to look at the tone—the tonality, if you like—of what you're trying to put across. These are things that work without meaning, without semantic meaning. Rob: Right, and to some degree across cultures. I hear what you're saying, it certainly is culturally specific to a degree, but I think I've seen—and I'm not sure whether this would have come from Lexicon or if it's actually just from social psychology—but this diagram with two drawings, one of which is pointed and sharp looking, and the other is just a bunch of curves and swirls, and then there are two made-up name options underneath them, and one of them has hard stops in it like "t" and "k" and the other has, like you said, liquids, more vowels, more soft fricatives "s" and "f" and "v." And it's, I believe the finding is that across pretty much every culture, people choose the same way that the harder sounds, so to speak, go with the pointier made-up object and vice-versa. Clive: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Now what cultural associations they make with that can vary. But yeah, I mean by and large, that works and it works particularly well across all the romance languages. It's a little harder in the Germanic languages, but anyway, yes you're right. I mean whether it's consonants or vowels you can build something just on sound symbolism that will have certain tonalities and associations even if the brief is very abstract. We linguists are not left entirely adrift. Rob: Well, if you'll bear with me getting into the weeds a little bit on process: Let's start with timing. Do you generally sit down for a certain number of hours with any given brief? Do you have any kind of consistent approach along those lines, just with regard to timing? Clive: It's not entirely consistent but there is a pattern. When I first sit down with a brief, there very often quite quickly comes a point within an hour or so where I'm banging my head against a brick wall—where I've got through the obvious stuff, I've made the obvious connections and made the semantic and language word parts and phonemes, and so on, and listed them, and come up with some names based on them, and so on. And then I kind of go, "Ok, what's next?" I have found personally, that if I break off then, that isn't going to help. That's actually a barrier that I have to work through, so I generally don't want to start a project unless I've got about at least four hours clear in front of me. Rob: Wow. Clive: Because I find that a lot of really good stuff comes after that point where you're going, "Wow, this is a tough one. I don't know that I'm going to be able to come up with a lot of stuff for this." And then you just have to keep pushing back the borders of your own immediate responses to a brief. And that's the problem. I've been doing this for so long now—you know for 25 plus years—that there are tracks in my brain. And to get out of those ruts, you need to make associations that you haven't made before, or least if you have, it was a while ago and you can't read them. And I find that I need to work through that barrier rather than walking away at that point. Now, having said that, there then comes a point about—you know, whether it's 4 hours, or whatever in—where you've then had a little breakthrough and suddenly there's been this strangely rich period of productivity. And then I think, frankly, the brain just gets tired, and that's the point at which I take a break. Rob: Ok. Clive: And yeah, it helps if you can go away for 24 hours. There are other things you can do as well. Exercise is terrific at reframing the brain, at you know throwing the pieces up and letting them fall down in different places. Rob: Do you find that when you are exercising—or just, you've gone away from being immediately focused on the project itself—do you find yourself still thinking about it, and that sometimes ideas will pop up and maybe you'll need to quickly find a way to jot them down before you forget? Or do you really feel like you push it out of your brain for a while? Clive: Both. I find that I can definitely push it out of my brain for a while. I find that if I do go off and do something else, I'm not thinking about it. But ideas will come to me and it's clearly there in the subconscious, because something out of apparently nowhere will come and will relate back to what I'm working on—the project that I'm working on. And I'm not making any conscious effort and in fact, some of the best associative ideas—associated ideas—come from doing something completely different, but there's suddenly this connection with what you're doing or with an idea that you have to what you're working on. And your brain reminds you, or at least it does me, that this is an idea you might want to capture for what you're working on. But I never go to bed when I'm working on a project without a pad next to the bed. My partner, Christian, will tell you, I quite often turn out the light, five minutes later, I turn the light back on, because that moment between sleep and waking is absolutely the best time for my best ideas. Rob: Do you use a pad otherwise, or is it just for that space specific context. I was gonna ask anyway, do you work in Microsoft Word or something like that as you're coming up with ideas, or do you tend to stick to pen and paper? Clive: It used to be pen and paper. Partly that was because one of the great things about naming is you can do it anywhere, and I used to do it in the back of the tour bus when I was touring a theatrical production, and then it was definitely a pad, because laptops were way too big and expensive back in the nineties to do it any other way. But occasionally I'll do it with a pad if I'm travelling and getting a laptop out is a hassle, or whatever. I still make notes on pieces of paper. But generally, I work in Excel now. I used to work, for years I worked in Word, till I realized that actually, it's easier to manipulate data in Excel even if it's just text data. Rob: And what about, you mentioned the thesaurus earlier. Do you do you favor any particular thesaurus, whether it's print or online? Clive: I have a wonderful thesaurus... Rob: That sounds like a book, then. Not a website? Clive: Absolutely. I was awarded this. I was actually able to choose the modern languages reading prize at my secondary school—my high school—I won for reading a Russian poem, and was awarded Roget's Thesaurus in nineteen sixty...I can't remember, eight, or something like that, and it still has the sticker inside that says, "Modern Languages Reading Prize, Awarded to Clive Chafer." Rob: Congratulations. Clive: It's not because of that, although it's wonderfully battered now, because he used to go to Lexicon, it used to go to Master-McNeil, and so on. But it has words in it that I've never found in any other thesaurus. It's a treasury of the English language. I was given more recently I think a Bartlett's Thesaurus, which was given by a namer who said, "This is absolutely the best thesaurus I've ever found." And it's very good, and it has a lot more modern usages in it than my sixties tome, but it's nowhere near as comprehensive. Rob: Right, it sounds like if you cross reference both, maybe you get the best of both worlds. Clive: Absolutely, and I use both. I use them all the time, and I even use thesaurus.com although I pretty much hate it. But it's very convenient. So I do use it rather than lugging a book around with me. I find thesaurus.com is very poor at alternative meanings and concepts that are close to the words that you're looking up. There are some just outstanding omissions from thesaurus.com. Rob: Are there any other books that you keep close at hand as you're doing naming aside from those two thesauruses? Clive: Not for every project, no. I mean, clearly there are lots of books that I use, whether it's books on mythology or astronomy. You can get a lot of this online, as well, but I still like having...the way that you use a book is less linear than the way you use online resources. Rob: Right. Clive: And so, I like the fact that it takes me in different directions. If it's Bulfinch's Mythology, I end up looking at different things than I would if I had looked up Wikipedia for "Roman gods associated with agriculture" or something. Having those books around is very useful, but I would say that I probably use the thesaurus on 95% of projects that I work on, and then the Oxford dictionary and the other Bartlett's Roget's that I have, those I use pretty frequently as well. Beyond that, it's really specific to the individual project and brief. Rob: What about websites other than dictionary.com, are there any that you just find yourself going back to or...you know, even if it's not on 95% of the projects, even if it's only 25%. Clive: The things that I keep bookmarked are foreign language dictionaries and Forvo, which is a place you can go to to find the pronunciation of—by native speakers—of foreign words, which is kind of interesting. Rob: Interesting, how's that spelled? Clive: F-O-R-V-O dot com. There is one that I have been using in the last year or so. I think it's more of a crossword type dictionary. One of the parameters for a name is often length, and the thing about a crossword dictionary is that it will offer you solutions that are, you know, all the solutions that are five letters long. And that I find useful for projects where length is particularly important—if it's going to be on a name badge that has very little space, for instance. I think it may be OneAcross.com. Rob: Oh. That makes sense, speaking of names. Clive: What it lets you do, and this is what I was trying to think about earlier, is find every six-letter word of which the last three letters are "con," for instance. But at OneAcross you can put in three question marks, "C-O-N," and it will come back with everything in the dictionary. Rob: Exactly. Yeah, this can be very helpful. Clive: Yeah. And you can switch that around as well. You can make it "two blanks, "con," two blanks, or something like that. And it's surprising what it will come up with. Rob: Is there anything that you've done to get past that inevitable writer's block at some point when you're on a naming project? Any tips or tricks for other namers to help? You mentioned working out; I think that's a great one. Clive: Pretty much anything that takes you completely away from what you're doing is really what you need. I mean, going for a walk in the country, going for dinner with a friend. You'll get into conversation and your subconscious still has the brief in it, and you'll find that you'll find yourself bringing your pad out at the dinner table. "Excuse me a minute, can I just make a note, I just had an idea." And they all think it's very fun. "Oh, he's being creative again." So yeah. I mean it generally is not a social faux pas to do it. It opens up a whole new direction of conversation. As long as you walk away—physically walk away—and go off and do something else, whether it's a DIY project or whatever, it will help you to take a new perspective on what you're naming. The thing about exercise is that it's been scientifically proven to really help freshen up your brain. Rob: I don't know how often you have the opportunity to work with newcomers to the field of naming, but I'd love to hear any tips that you have for them or any mistakes you see them consistently making that you think you could help them steer clear of. Clive: I used to come into contact with them much more. It's funny, because back in the days of Lexicon, almost everybody did brainstorming sessions, which brought together—physically brought together—as many as a dozen people in a room. It did become obvious that a lot of people had...the way their brain worked meant that their creative output bore a very distinct resemblance across projects, even though those projects weren't necessarily related. So look at what you've put down as names over maybe five unrelated projects and look for patterns. And if you see them, be aware of them, so that you can break them. Rob: That's interesting. So, I almost imagine printing out those lists and circling anything, or highlighting anything that you see across lists and recognizing your own biases. Clive: Yes, exactly. Yeah, it is, it's biases. We all have ideas that we like and we are desperate to have them expressed in some form or another. And it's astonishing the lengths that we will go to to get them represented. And it's really good to be aware of them so that you can say, "Ok, I've got to be careful not to just fall into this pattern again," and find a way of breaking it, and find a way of expanding beyond it. And you can do that consciously. And if you don't do it, you'll probably find that unconsciously, you will continue to regurgitate the same stuff again and again. Rob: It feels a little bit like when you're new to naming, it's more about just sort of what interesting words do you know? And you're very tempted to throw those words into the list, whether or not they make sense. And maybe the more mature you get, the more you really stick to what is the brief asking for, and start there, as opposed to just having hopefully too much of your own bias to put into it. Clive: The other thing I would say—sort of advice to the young namer—is that you will be terribly disappointed, time and time again, by one, the names that get chosen, which will always be...they will always ignore the names that you think are the best. Rob: That's so true. Clive: And that's partly because a brief is a terribly inadequate way of communicating what a client actually wants. And it can be a very frustrating experience being a namer, because either you never find out what the client chose anyway, and you feel like you're just throwing this stuff into a black hole, or you find out afterwards that the whole directions—all the directions that you were working on—were not the direction they ended up going in. Or they abandoned the project, and it sounded wonderful, and you came up with all these great names. It's very easy to get dissuaded at that point and feel like a very small cog in a much larger wheel. And it's only by being a project manager as well as a creative that I have been able to understand how what I do fits into a bigger picture and not get frustrated about it. Rob: Absolutely, and I remember as a junior namer, it's not only the client. It's also if you're junior and you're on a larger team, it's the rest of your team. I remember feeling like my boss didn't get it. You know, they didn't get the names that I'd come up with and they weren't choosing my best names to even present to the client. Clive: The single biggest problem with naming, the single biggest thing that goes wrong from anybody's point of view, is that somebody in the company—somebody at the client—is not brought into the process early, even though they have veto power over the name. And very often, it's somebody down the line who is protecting their boss from getting involved because they don't want them to have to put time into this, and then they're saying, "No no no no, he's got much more important things to think about. We'll handle this." And then they come up with a name and they put it in front of this person who has not been involved, and he looks at it and goes, "No." And you know they, well, yeah. You know, the answer is no because you didn't ask him what the question was in the first place. Rob: It's a classic problem and we've all seen it too many times. Clive: It is the single-most frequent way that the wheels come off the project. You've got to involve them from the start. Ignore the fact that they have very busy schedules and that their calendar is all booked up. If you don't get them involved at the start, you are risking wasting everybody's time. Rob: Well just the last question, just for fun: You've been doing this for so long, I'm curious what do you like about it? Do you have sort of a favorite thing about naming and name generation that makes it something that you want to keep doing? Clive: Well I'm in my sixth decade now, and I am grateful for anything and everything that keeps my brain ticking over. It is really good to have something like this that makes me not just think conceptually around a problem but, as I said before, that gets me out of the ruts that my brain is in. When I come to a project, I try as hard as possible to make my brain do what is unfamiliar, because I really do think that that is part of what keeps my brain ticking over at a reasonably good level. Rob: There you go, naming keeps you young. Clive: Yeah. Keeps the brain young, certainly. Yeah. Rob: Thanks again Clive. Clive: You're welcome. Rob: I'll talk to you soon. Clive: Yep. Have a good day. Rob: You too. Bye bye. Clive: Thanks, bye.  

Listen now: Anthony Shore is one of the most experienced namers out there. He has over 25 years of experience in naming and has introduced more than 200 product and company names to the world. Some of the names he’s created include Lytro, Yum! Brands, Fitbit Ionic, Qualcomm Snapdragon, and Photoshop Lightroom. In 2015, he was featured in a New York Times Magazine article titled “The Weird Science of Naming New Products,” which tells the story of Jaunt, a VR company he named. And a BBC News article called him "one of the world’s most sought after people when it comes to naming new businesses and products." Anthony has led naming at Landor Associates. He worked at the naming firm, Lexicon, and now he runs his own agency, Operative Words, which you can find at operativewords.com. I had a great time talking to Anthony. He shares a bunch of knowledge, some great tips and examples, and we even got to nerd out a bit talking about recurrent neural networks. Anthony's using artificial intelligence to supplement his own name generation; it's fascinating to think about how tools like these might be used in the future. Anthony also gave a great overview of his naming process and provided a list of tools and resources he uses when generating names. Some namers I've talked to seem to prefer analog resources (i.e., books). In contrast, Anthony almost exclusively uses software and online tools*, including the following: Wordnik ("a great resource for lists of words") OneLook Rhymezone Sketch Engine (a corpus linguistics database) TextWrangler (a plain ASCII text editor) BBEdit Microsoft Excel Anthony and I rounded out the conversation talking some of his least favorite naming trends, as well as what he likes most about being a namer. I highly recommend you check out Anthony’s website and blog at operativewords.com, where he has a bunch of amazing content that goes into way more detail on some of the topics we discussed. Below, you'll find the full transcript of the episode (may contain typos and/or transcription errors). Click above to listen to the episode, and subscribe on iTunes to hear every episode of How Brands Are Built. * To see a complete list of online resources listed by namers in episodes of How Brands Are Built, see our Useful List: Online/software resources used by professional namers. Rob: Anthony, thank you for joining me. Anthony: Thanks so much for having me, Rob. Rob: One of the first things I wanted to ask you about is something I don’t talk to namers about that much. It’s artificial intelligence. So, I saw that you’ve written and talked about the potential for using neural networks and brand naming. Can you tell me a little bit about what made you start down that path and then maybe how it works today? Anthony: Sure. I love talking about this. Artificial intelligence, and really using computers in general as an adjunct to what I do, has always been near and dear to my heart. Way back in college, I created a self-defined AI major. And so, when recurrent neural networks started becoming available and accessible over the last few years, I took an interest. And a woman named Janelle Shane, who is a nanoscientist and a neural network hobbyist, started publishing name generation by neural network. And this really caught my interest. And she was doing it just as a hobby and for fun, but I could see that neural networks offered a great deal of promise. And so, I engaged with her and asked her to teach me what she knew, so that I could also use neural networks to help me create brand names, in addition to using the other tools that I use, like my brain and other bits of software and resources. Rob: And is there...how technical is it now in your use of it? Is it something that anyone could do or does it really require a lot of programming knowledge? Anthony: Well, right now I’d say it’s not for the faint of heart. The only interface that really helpful is through command line, really using a terminal. So it’s all ASCII. It’s done in Linux and there’s various and sundry languages that have to be brought into play like Python and Lua and Torche. Rob: So you’ve got to know what you’re doing a little bit. Anthony: Yeah yeah. It’s not something that’s just a web interface that you plug ideas in and it’s going to work like a charm. Now, that is right now and it’s changing constantly. I mean, even in just the few months, six months that I’ve been doing this, I’ve been seeing more and more neural networks front ends on the web pop up. But their results aren’t very good at all. But it’s clear that that’s going to change. Rob: And I saw that Janelle has named a beer I think using her neural network it’s called The Fine Stranger which is a cool name for an indie beer. Have you had any success using it yet for some of your naming projects? Anthony: I’ll say this: that neural networks have, in my use of them, have illustrated to me some really interesting words and ideas, and clients are interested in AI and neural networks as part of the creative process. But there haven’t been any names yet that a neural network I’ve trained has generated and the client said, "Yes, that’s going to be our name." But it’s only a matter of time before that happens. But I’m bullish on AI and neural networks. Rob: Well, it’s funny because, I know this isn’t the same thing, but every now and then, I’m sure you see this too, there are these doomsday proclamations of naming...the human aspect of naming dying out because computers will be able to do it themselves. What are your thoughts in terms of how people and computers will interact in the future to do this job? Anthony: Oh, without a doubt, accessible AI tools for name generation will increase everyone’s access to interesting names. But just because you are shown a word or a list of words doesn’t mean that you’re going to know, as someone in the company for instance, is this really going to be the right word? Does this have the potential to become a brand? And there’s other aspects of naming such as understanding and ascertaining what the right naming strategy should be. What should the right inputs that an AI should be trained on? You know, what kinds of words should the AI be trained on? Helping a client see how each word in a list of words could become their future could become their brand, and helping them to see the the assets and potential of each of these names. That’s not something AI is going to do. So there’s still a place for professional name developers. Rob: I want to back up a little bit and just talk more generally about about name generation. Can you just give me a 30,000-foot view of the entire naming process before we dive into some of the specific steps within it? Anthony: Yeah, sure, I’ll be happy to Rob. So, I’ll be briefed by the clients, and maybe they’ll provide me with an actual creative brief, or not, but from that, I’ll develop name objectives that succinctly capture what the name needs to accomplish; what it needs to support or connote. And once we agree on those marching orders, I’ll get into creative. Now the first wave of creative is a mile wide and an inch deep, where I explore many different perspectives of the brand, different tonalities, different styles of names, different executions. And that process takes about two weeks of creative development. At the end, there’s probably a thousand or several thousand words that have been developed. I’ll cull the best 150 names and run those through preliminary global trademark screening with my trademark partner, Steve Price. And from that, there’ll be 50 to 70 names, and I’ll present those names to the client. And I present them in a real-world context so they look less like hypothetical candidates and more like de facto, existing brands. And I present each name in the exact same visual context to really keep the focus on the name and not confound variables by changing up the color or the font. I present each name individually, talk about their implications and what they bring. And at the end the client gets feedback—what they like, what they don’t like, what they’re neutral about—and that informs the second round of creative work, which is an inch wide and a mile deep, where I delve into what was really working for them. And, it’s important to have a couple of rounds of creative because it’s one thing to agree in an abstract brief, but what clients really react to are real words, and that’s where you can really find out what’s going on, because it’s difficult for people to really understand what they like and don’t like in a name until they see them. And so that second round of work focuses on what’s working for them. And that process again is about two weeks, thousands of names developed, 100, 150 go into screening for trademark and domains, and then 50 names plus are presented to the client. And the client chooses from all of the names that’ve been presented across both rounds—typically over 100 names. They bring a handful of names into their full legal screening. Maybe there is cultural and linguistic checks that have to happen, and their full legal checks and then they choose one final name to run with. Rob: What steps do you take when you just start generating names? Anthony: All right, so once we all agree on what the marching orders are. The process looks like this: I’ll first bring up my go-to set of software and applications and resources that I use pretty much in parallel, and I bounce between them as I go through development. So, I’ll bring up I’ll bring up Wordnik, which is an important piece of software online, a great resource for lists of words. I use OneLook, Rhymezone, an engine called Sketch Engine, and various other applications. And I will use those to identify words, word parts, that are interesting to me. And so over the course of that development I will use different techniques in order to unearth every possible idea I can find. I will also go through prior projects that I’ve done through Operative Words, and if I find a good word for this project, I’ll search on my computer for all files that I’ve worked on that also contain that word, and so I’ll be able to mine from my prior work. And so, that creative process happens for about two weeks. At the end of two weeks I will have amassed thousands of ideas, and if I bring neural networks and software-based combinations and permutations there are literally tens-of-thousands of ideas in the picture. Rob: You mentioned Sketch Engine awhile ago as one of the online resources that you use. I’ve seen that you’ve written quite a bit about it and how you use it. But can you just briefly explain what it is and why you recommend it so highly? Anthony: Yes, Sketch Engine is a corpus linguistics database. So, let me explain that. Corpus linguistics is using a very large body of real-world language. That’s a corpus, and it’s plural is corpora. And using computers to sort of analyze and tag and organize what’s in there. So a corpus might be, for instance, the one I use is all of the news articles that have been published between 2014 and 2017. All of that real-world text—that’s 28 billion words—all of which have been tagged by part of speech, and it’s recorded all of the words that live next to all of the other words. In other words, it records what are called "colocations." Now, colocations are useful because you can learn a lot about a word by the company it keeps. So if there’s an attribute that a client is interested in, let’s say ‘fast’ or ‘smart,’ I can look up a word like "fast" or "smart" or any other related word, and discover all of the words that have been modified by it. So, therefore I can find an exhaustive list of things that are fast, things that are smart, or verbs related to things that are fast and things that are smart. And so, the benefit is, one, is exhaustiveness, two, is also linguistic naturalness. That is, you’re finding how words are used in a real-world context, and I believe that linguistic naturalness in names is very important for names being credible, for names being relatable, and for names feeling very adaptable. You’re not foisting ideas on people that make no sense. Rob: It rolls off the tongue, to use kind of the layman’s term. Anthony: Yes, that’s right. Rob: You’ve mentioned so many online tools, I’m just curious, is there anything offline that you frequent? Anthony: I’m typically watching some kind of movie or TV show or some other sort of visual stimulus while I’m doing my creative development. Rob: Interesting. Anthony: And those things provide visual stimulation and there is dialogue and other ideas that come up that provide an extra input to my creative process. Rob: Do you choose what you’re watching based on the project, or is it just whatever you happen to be watching anyway? Anthony: No, no, I do. Absolutely. So, with projects that are very technologically driven or scientifically driven, I’ll watch something that’s sort of technological or scientific. Rob: That’s fun. Do you ever just, you know, there’s been a movie that you’ve been wanting to see anyway, and you feel like, "Oh, that fits this project," and you put that on? Anthony: Yeah, absolutely. Rob: Another technique that I saw that you wrote about, it’s called an "excursion." Can you can explain what that is? Is that related to the idea of watching a movie while you’re doing naming? Anthony: In an excursion, you identify a completely unrelated product category. Sometimes the less related the better. And you look for examples of a desired attribute or quality from that category. For instance, if you’re naming a new intelligent form of AI, let’s go ahead and consider examples of intelligence from the world of kitchens. Let’s look for ideas of intelligence in the world of sports. By thinking through an attribute as it appears somewhere else, you are able to find ideas that are differentiated but relevant, because when you take a word from a different category and drop it into a relevant category, it immediately becomes relevant to that new category. People are very comfortable with this technique. Rob: I have a couple of tactical, logistics questions that I’m curious how you would respond to. What about the actual medium that you use when you’re writing down or documenting your name ideas? Do you do this in Excel or do you have a pad of paper with you while you’re doing all these other exercises, and you’re just furiously jotting down ideas? Anthony: I’m using Microsoft Word, by and large, for this. I also use another text application called TextWrangler. I use Excel when I’m charged with developing a generic descriptor for a new product. Rob: And what is TextWrangler? Is there an important difference between that and Word, or just, you happen to use both? Anthony: TextWrangler is a text editor. So, there’s no formatting whatsoever. It’s plain ASCII text. It has another sister application called BBEdit, and these applications are very useful when you’re working with pure text, and it has some terrific tools like the ability to eliminate duplicates, the ability to use pattern recognition, something called Grep, in order to find words that include certain patterns. So, very useful tool and an adjunct to the toolset that I use. Rob: And then the other logistical question is just about timing. You mentioned usually a two-week period of time for your first run at name generation, but I’ve heard other namers say they like to have a four-hour window to really immerse themselves in a project anytime they sit down to do name generation. Do you have any rules of thumb that you adhere to in terms of timing? Anthony: Over the course of two weeks, the process is, I will immerse myself completely in a project maybe for four hours, maybe for a day, maybe for two days, or three days even. And then I put it away. And then I forget about it, and I work on something else for a day or two, and then I come back to it. And so, I have this repeated process of immersion and then incubation and I repeat that in order to do creative work. That’s a process that’s been demonstrated and proven to help maximize creative output. Those "aha" moments—those Eureka moments you have in the shower—happen because you’ve been thinking about something and then stop thinking about it, consciously anyway. But meanwhile there’s something bubbling up under the surface that comes out when you least expect it. Rob: You’ve mentioned a lot of things that you could use if you get stuck on a project. Do you ever get writer’s block so to speak, and if so, is there anything that you haven’t already mentioned that you would use to kick yourself back into naming gear? Anthony: Sure. You know, the writer’s block happens when a client is looking for something that isn’t different. If their if their product or their brand doesn’t really have something new to offer, that’s a more difficult nut to crack. And so, in those cases, I will look at projects that are utterly unrelated in any way, or other kinds of lists. And in this way, I expose myself to words that have nothing to do with the project whatsoever. But, because of how I see words and how I think, I can look at a list and look at a word and go, "Oh, wait a minute. There’s a story there." I can see what would be related or that would be interesting. So, really, it’s a process of compelling me to look at words just in order to see what happens. It’s a little bit stochastic. It’s a little bit random, but it’s actually very useful and interesting and new ideas can come out of it, even for projects where there isn’t something wildly different under the surface. Rob: I like to ask whether there are any names or naming tropes that you see that you’re getting sick of. You know, like any other creative process, there are trends in the industry—startups ending with with "-ly," for example. Are there any specific name ideas or trends like that that you want to call out or that you wish would discontinue? Anthony: Well, Rob, there’re always trends that I wish would go away. In fact, any trends, by and large, I wish would go away, because they’re unoriginal and they don’t serve the brands that they represent. They look derivative. They look unoriginal. And what does that say about their company or their products? So, yes, I’m not crazy about the "-ly" trend that’s been going on, just as I wasn’t crazy about the "oo" trend that was happening after Google and Yahoo found success, just like I wasn’t crazy about the "i-" or "e-" prefix trend back when that was happening. You know, I’m just fundamentally opposed to these ideas because they don’t they don’t serve their clients and they, I think, reflect a company that isn’t truly original. I’m also not crazy about the trend to randomly drop consonants or vowels, or double them, because it’s clear that it was done just in order to secure a dotcom domain, and it feels like domain desperation. Rob: Right, it feels forced. Anthony: Exactly. And linguistic unnaturalness, where you do these things in order to shoehorn words in order to get a free dotcom, I don’t think serves a brand well either, because they’re immediately off-putting, they look unnatural, and they’re difficult to relate to. Rob: The last question I like to ask namers is just what your favorite thing is about being a namer or coming up with name ideas. Anthony: Well, I really love the process of identifying, exhaustively, every possible perspective of a new brand. If I’m looking at a list of a thousand potential names, those are a thousand different perspectives, a thousand different ways of framing you looking at this company. And those are a thousand potential futures. And then seeing when a company finally adopts a name that I’ve helped them with—to see how they adopted the name, breathe life into it, and then run with it, and do their own, get their own inspiration from the name. So, as an example, a while ago I worked with an architectural and design firm called Pollack Architecture, who needed a new name. And eventually, I worked with them and developed the name "Rapt Studio" for them, R-A-P-T, "Rapt Studio" for them. And they do brilliant interior and architecture work and branding work as well. Really brilliant and wonderful people. And so once I gave them "Rapt Studio," they ran with it and they called their employees "Raptors." I didn’t give them that idea. They have meetings once a week, which are called "Monday Rapture" meetings. All right. So, I love when a name can inspire a client with great ideas. That makes me very happy. Rob: That’s great. Well let’s leave it there. And I just want to say thank you again for your willingness to share some of your thinking and how you do what you do. Anthony: Well, thank you so much, Rob. You know, I really do this for selfish reasons because I hate ugly words, and names are an unavoidable part of our environment and our habitat, and wouldn’t you much rather be surrounded by beauty and gardens than blight? I feel that way about names and so I give away what I know, because I want other namers, even my direct competitors, to come up with with great names so that they can also populate the world with words that are interesting and creative imaginative, and words we like to have around. Rob: Well, you call it selfish but it seems selfless to me. I really appreciate it and thanks again. Let’s go make some more beautiful words out there. Anthony: Yeah, let’s do that. Thanks, Rob. Rob: Thank you.  

Using Data to Improve Sales Performance, Management, and Leadership Rob Käll is the CEO and Co-Founder of Cein, Inc.   Rob is passionate about data, machine learning, natural language processing, and using these technologies to improve organizations.   We met Rob through a listener of the Catalyst Sale podcast, and we think you will enjoy getting to know him as well.  On this episode, we discuss measuring things that matter, using data to gather insight and improve outcomes, how Machine Learning + Human Intelligence improve performance, and many other topics. Questions Addressed Why is data important to Rob? What does it mean to measure what matters? What is Natural Language Processing? How can AI, Data, NLP, be used for personal development, coaching, and management? What does the future look like when considering AI? How do we differentiate between the signal and the noise when it comes to AI and Machine Learning? What are some of the things Rob knows now that he wishes he would have known 5 years ago? Key Takeaways Replace hunches with facts See beyond KPIs Measure what matters - some numbers go up, some go down, but what do they really mean? Use AI to measure & reduce gaming We know that data is never perfect, it is likely incomplete, inconsistent, delayed, etc. Use data as a signal. Call John, Talk to John, John Reached Out to Me - all may relate, NLP (Natural Language Processing) allows you to connect these things, correlate, and identify patterns. NLP can be used for coaching - coaching in context. You cannot apply your playbook to every situation. Humans are excellent at picking up patterns - but we are also subject to our own biases. The combination of the computer analysis with human intelligence you can very quickly realize a new level of importance. Artificial Intelligence and Data Sciences will fundamentally change how we work within the next 10 years, across all industries. Small improvements can yield significant impact long term. Rob - "we use simple measurements of success.  Baseline, and illustrate changes in performance." Improving sales productivity can be the ultimate medicine for your business. You are going to feel like you are failing as you build your business.  If you are making progress, and you keep solving problems, you will have success. Continue to deliver something of value. Business partners are important, they can help with focus. You have to say No. Organizations work when you have a solid culture, and everyone is working toward the same goals. Communication is critical Don't forget about the importance of 1:1 communication, throughout the organization - know your people "As a startup founder, it is your obligation to care about every member of your team" Training should be more than an afterthought - as a salesperson, you need to know your industry. Nothing is more expensive than replacing a great salesperson. Show Links LinkedIn Twitter Cien.ai Measure What Matters Everything a Sales Leader Needs to Know About AI Call to Action How are you using AI to improve your craft?  Let us know via twitter @catalystsale or email us directly. Please share your stories with us @catalystsale on twitter or via hello@catalystsale.com  ---------------------- Thank you Ratings & reviews help others discover the podcast - thank you for helping us get the message out to the community. Please send listener questions and feedback to hello@catalystsale.com or contact us directly on twitter, facebook or LinkedIn. Catalyst Sale Service Offerings Growth Acceleration - Plateau Breakthrough Product Market Fit Catalyst Sale - Sales Fundamentals Training Program ---------------------- Subscribe to the Catalyst Sale Podcast Subscribe via iTunes Subscribe via Google Play Catalyst Sale In every business, in every opportunity, there is someone who can help you navigate the internal challenges and close the deal.  There is a Catalyst.  We integrate process (Catalyst Sale Process), technology and people, with the purpose of accelerating revenue. Our thoughtful approach minimizes false starts that are common in emerging markets and high-growth environments. We continue to evolve our practice based on customer needs and emerging technology. We care about a thinking process that enables results versus a process that tells people what to do.   Sales is a Thinking Process.

I know how easy it is to tell yourself stories that hold you back and negatively alter the way you view the world around you. These stories, often created by self-doubt and ego, become our identity. It’s not until we let go of this unhelpful ways of thinking, that we are truly able to be present, live life to it’s fullest and create deep self-worth and inner peace. Today’s guest knows what it’s like to be blocked by these stories as well as the strength and balance you can gain by overcoming them and mastering your mind. Steve Willis, also known as Commando Steve from his time as a trainer on The Biggest Loser, shares openly about his struggles, proudest moments and lessons from across his varied experiences. Before becoming a personal trainer, Steve joined the army to gain an apprenticeship and work as a tradesman in the military. Driven by a need to be accepted and respected by his peers, he moved into the school of infantry and eventually joined Special Forces. After leaving the Special Forces he auditioned for the Biggest Loser which helped lead to him finding his calling. This chat with Steve will help you overcome unhelpful habits such as self-doubt, the imposter syndrome, craving appreciation of others and the use of negative stories. To do this, he shares with you ways to create even more strength and balance by mastering your mind. Some questions and topics Steve and I talk about are below:- What was Commando Steve’s first dream job? Steve and I talk about his drive at the start of his military career. Steve talks about how the ego can be a roadblock. We can often tell ourselves stories. When we use the same stories long enough, we identify and attach to those stories, using them as a lens that we see the world through. To have a fullness of life we need to have balance and polarity with everything we do. We need to have time to be present and aware, amongst the stress and anxiety of anything we face. How did you make the jump from being a member of Special Forces to The Biggest Loser? Steve’s strategy for overcoming negative internal dialogue. Steve talks about his final season of The Biggest Loser and how his experience with the Auvales family affected him. Commando Steve recommends these books to get started! Resilience - Eric Greitens The Power of Now - Eckhart Tolle Books by Thich Nhat Hanh Rapid fire questions from the listeners: Matt - What is your morning routine? Ted - What are your daily non-negotiables? Lobenzo - What was it like going from a secretive commando to being in the public eye? Rob - What is your biggest sacrifice and/or what keeps you motivated? Mel - How do you create work, life, family and training balance? Steve answers the rocking chair test. What does Do Life Better mean to Steve? Respect for yourself and what it means to be human. Firstly, in your thoughts, and the way you perceive yourself which will give positive emotions. Secondly nutrition, so eating as healthy as possible but also not to deny yourself the tasty things. Thirdly exercise and your body and wellbeing. Steve’s challenge for the week: Create some ‘Ma’ which is the Japanese word for space. You can get in contact with Command Steve at - http://www.commandosteve.com Twitter - @commandosteve Instagram - @commandosteve Facebook - Commando Steve Follow us at facebook.com/projecthatch and Instagram at @project_hatch. To contact us about retreats, leadership training and workshops, visit www.projecthatch.com.au or email us at hello@projecthatch.com.au. Remember to subscribe to, rate and review the podcast to help spread the do life better message. Now, go out and create a great day.

Will we bring back A-Rob? What free agents should the Jags target? Which delivery pizza joint is the best? The boys answer all your questions in episode 5.

Welcome to episode 61 of The Copywriter Club Podcast. Today Kira Hug and Rob Marsh talk with freelance copywriter Alaura Weaver about how she’s grown her business, often working at night to get things done. During our discussion, we covered: •  how she went from acting to sales to copywriting •  how theater and acting has made her a better copywriter •  what she did early on to get her first clients and her advice to new copywriters •  how she saw herself as a business owner, not a freelancer •  her thoughts about seeing customers as humans, not consumers and living your message •  how copywriters can live their own message and values •  how to develop buyer personas and why you should use them •  how she gets to know the customers she is profiling •  the trap of writing for everybody and reaching nobody •  how she sells her clients on creating Avatars as part of her projects Plus we also asked Alaura about how often you should create new customer profile, what she’s doing to share how you can define your own customer personas and how she juggles family, course creation, and business and makes it all work. Want this one in your ear buds? Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript. The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: Sponsor: AirStory Textbroker Neil Patel Joanna Wiebe The storytelling post on CH Hillary’s coaching post Xtensio Alaura’s website @wordweaverfree Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group Intro: Content (for now) Outro: Gravity Full Transcript: The Copywriter Club Podcast is sponsored by Airstory, the writing platform for professional writers who want to get more done in half the time. Learn more at Airstory.co/club. Rob: What if you can hang out with seriously talented copywriters and other experts, ask them about their successes and failures, their work processes and their habits. Then steal an idea or two to inspire your own work. That’s what Kira and I do every week at The Copywriter Club Podcast. Kira: You’re invited to join the club for episode 61 as we chat with freelance copywriter and storyteller, Alaura Weaver, about how she became a copywriter, creating customer personas, and her course about them, juggling work and family, and various other products, and making business personal. Welcome Alaura. Rob: Welcome Alaura! Alaura: Hi! Thank you! Kira: Great to have you here, so I think a great place to start is with your story. As a storyteller, can you tell us your story? Alaura: So, it’s really ironic is that my verbal, like, speaking storytelling skills are a little bit off, which is why I like writing. But, I’ll tell you how I started. I’ve actually started in the theater. I was a child actress and, that’s what I thought I was going to do my entire life. I was on the stage, I literally grew up on the stage. Kira: Wow. Alaura: And I went to the Baltimore School for the Arts for high school. I majored in theater in undergrad and got my graduate degree in acting. So, it was kind of like, that was my path; I was going to be a professional actress. I focused on the creation of original works, so I did have that writing element in there. But, life is a lot harder—laugh—than your dreams, right? You know, the reality is most actors are unemployed for the majority of their careers, and I had to find a way to pay back those student loans and pay bills and be an adult. And so I got into sales. I got into business-to-business sales. One of my first jobs was actually on inside sales for a start-up, and I liked that environment a lot, of that small team, that kind of feisty, scrappy team, building and growing that business, and it felt like a good place to be. But then I got an offer to start selling, advertising for the Yellow Book.—Laughs—If you remember...do you remember the Yellow Book? Rob: Let your fingers do the walking, absolutely. Alaura: So you can guess how,

For the 58th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, Kira Hug and Rob Marsh sit down to talk with financial copywriter, Jake Hoffberg about all kinds of things related to writing copy in the financial niche, including: •  his first exposure to direct response and how he got into internet marketing •  how he was rejected by every division of Agora but one before he landed his first project •  the terrible cold email pitch template he used (we share it, don’t use it) •  his contrarian “I want to make money” path to copywriting •  the kinds of projects he willingly took on just to get started •  how he leveraged his new relationships into more jobs and more clients •  the real value that copywriters provide their clients (it’s not writing copy) •  the process for pitching new ideas and getting the next project, and •  how to double your income in 6 months Plus we also asked for his thoughts about getting royalties, which clients will pay them, and how to structure royalties the right way and he shared the advice he give other writers about how to get into financial copywriting... hint: don’t think you should start at the top. All that and more is in this money-packed episode (not literally). To hear it all, click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript. The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: Sponsor: AirStory Eban Pagan Jeff Walker Agora Financial Motley Fool Dent Research Sale of a Lifetime Freelance Financial Copywriter Group JakeHoffberg.com Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group Intro: Content (for now) Outro: Gravity Full Transcript: The Copywriter Club Podcast is sponsored by Airstory, the writing platform for professional writers who want to get more done in half the time. Learn more at Airstory.co/club. Rob: What if you could hang out with seriously talented copywriters and other experts, ask them about their successes and failures, their work processes, and their habits, then steal and idea or two to inspire your own work? That’s what Kira and I do every week at the Copywriter Club Podcast. Kira: You’re invited to join the Club for episode 58, as we chat with financial copywriter Jake Hoffberg about his path to becoming a copywriter and choosing the financial niche, writing long-form sales pages and VSLs, what a new writer should do today to break into financial copywriting, and advertising to the affluent. -- Rob: Welcome, Jake! Jake: Thank you for having me! Kira: Yeah, it’s great to have you here. Rob: We’re excited to learn a little bit more about you and your niche and how it all came about, which is probably a good place to start. Let’s talk about your story and how you became a copywriter. Jake: Sure. So, I guess the story probably actually starts in 2008... 2009... and I had a copy of Eban Pagan’s Get Altitude Training—I forget how I got it, but I did—and that was really my first exposure to direct response. This whole world of people that were making money on the internet and running these virtual businesses and putting boards together and getting paid and I just—I thought that was fascinating. I was in direct sales at the time and I was knocking on doors and doing it the hard way and man, it was just so awesome sounding. So I probably spent the next five, six, seven years on and off trying to get into internet marketing and figure out how to run an info-product business and kinda went down that rabbit hole for a long time and tried a lot of things that did not work over the years. This is all while I was doing sales, and switched sales jobs a couple times, and think it was two years ago—something like that—it was July of 2015—I was running a consulting business and I had that moment that everyone has at some point in their life where they’re just like, F it! I’m done with this! I’m tired of this crap! And I had a not so friendly conversation with my boss,

In the 57th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, Kira and Rob talk with Heather Dominick who coined the term, highly sensitive entrepreneur—a name for business owners who are more sensitive to the demands of start-up and freelance work. During our conversation, we asked her: •  what a “highly sensitive entrepreneur is” and whether it’s a weakness we need to overcome •  how to know if you were born highly sensitive—20% of us are •  whether there’s something wrong with Rob who is highly insensitive •  what being highly sensitive means (and the superpowers HSEs have) •  a few questions you can ask yourself to find out if you’re an HSE •  how to work (or live) with someone who is highly sensitive •  how to approach work (and life) as a highly sensitive entrepreneur •  the importance of processes and systems to support your work as a HSE, and •  how to network as an HSE. We also asked Heather about the similarities between HSEs and introverts (they’re not the same thing) and how her business has changed since she started approaching things as an HSE. This discussion is a little different from our typical episode but shines a light on a personality type that many copywriters deal with regularly. To listen, click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript. The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: Sponsor: AirStory Ali Brown’s Glambition Radio Quiet by Susan Cane HSE Quiz Heather’s Website Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group Intro: Content (for now) Outro: Gravity Full Transcript: The Copywriter Club Podcast is sponsored by Airstory, the writing platform for professional writers who want to get more done in half the time. Learn more at Airstory.co/club. Rob: What if you could hang out with seriously talented copywriters and other experts, ask them about their successes and failures, their work processes, and their habits, then steal an idea or two to inspire your own work? That’s what Kira and I do every week at The Copywriter Club Podcast. Kira: You’re invited to join the Club for episode 57, as we chat with business coach and founder of the highly sensitive entrepreneur movement, Heather Dominick, about how personality traits affect business success, what it means to be highly sensitive, how to deal with the sensitive people in our lives, and what this all means for copywriters. Kira: Heather, welcome! Rob: Welcome Heather. Heather: Thank you so much. So happy to be here. So happy to be here with both of you! Kira: Well, when I first heard of you, it was on Ali Brown’s Glambition Radio interview with you. I was on vacation and somehow randomly stumbled upon that particular interview and I remember being like, oh my goodness! This is me! I had no idea that this was a thing and it was kind of like finding out from Susan Cane that I was an introvert a couple of years back when I was like, oh this makes sense! This all makes sense! And then I forced my husband to listen to the interview again so that he would understand why I am the way I am and so ever since then, I knew that we needed you on this show to really help communicate what this is all about to highly sensitive copywriters and copywriters that maybe aren’t as highly sensitive as well. Heather: Fantastic! I love that so much. Did your husband listen to the interview that I did with Ali Brown? Did that help? Kira: It did help. I feel like this is already a couple of months ago, I feel like it’s something that maybe we need to revisit every once in awhile just to be like okay, remember why - this is why I’m doing this this way? So it doesn’t fade away. And I think a great place to start is with your story - just, how you discovered that you’re a highly sensitive person and entrepreneur? Heather: Sure! Absolutely. I’m so happy to share. Well, I would say first that I’m in my 14th year of being self-employed and in the first half of my self-employment career,

Ryan Johnson, Head Copywriter at IWT (short for I Will Teach, Ramit Sethi’s company) steps up to the microphone with Kira and Rob for the 53rd episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. This interview covers a lot of ground, including: •  how after a grueling interview in his car, Ryan failed to get a job with IWT only to get hired a few months later (never give up) •  how to get inside the head of your client so you can speak with his or her voice •  his process for laying out all the moving pieces of a launch, and •  how he maps emotions to his launch plans so customers can’t wait to respond •  the 7 deadly email funnel sins •  two reasons to use long-form sales pages •  the “leap stacking” technique he uses to help his writers uplevel their skill (and what doesn’t work when trying to improve) Plus Ryan shares the “copy levers” that Gary Bencivenga used to get better at his craft, how he avoids writer’s block, and the one thing he would do if he had to start his career all over. Lots of good stuff packed into this episode. To hear it, click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript. The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: Sponsor: AirStory Ramit Sethi The Briefcase Technique Jay Abraham IWT AIDA Gary Bencivenga Abbey Woodcock Justin Blackman The Headline Project Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group Intro: Content (for now) Outro: Gravity Full Transcript: The Copywriter Club Podcast is sponsored by Airstory, the writing platform for professional writers who want to get more done in half the time. Learn more at Airstory.co/club. Rob: What if you could hang out with seriously talented copywriters and other experts, ask them about their successes and failures, their work processes and their habits, and then steal an idea or two to inspire your own work? That’s what Kira and I do every week at The Copywriter Club Podcast. Kira: You’re invited to join the club for episode 53 as we chat with in house copywriter, Ryan Johnson, about he became a copywriter and landed a job writing for Ramit Sethi, how he tackles a massive launch, capturing the voice of your client, and how long it takes him to write a 50 plus page sales letter. Ryan, welcome. Rob: Yes, welcome Ryan. Ryan: Thank you for having me. Glad to be here. Kira: Yeah, it’s great to have your here, and I think a great place to start is just with your story of how did you end up becoming a copywriter? Ryan: It was kind of a circular process to copywriting. I didn’t even know what copywriting was at the very beginning. My original interests were in film and creative writing, which led me into a delightful career waiting tables. After a few years of that, my first real job was in instructional design, and I was editing textbooks, and building training programs. I actually ended up designing an associates degree in business. I packaged and edited textbooks on business, and economics, and entrepreneurship before I realized that doing that was with no experience was totally crazy. But it was a good baseline. But while I was doing this, I can still remember. I was in the middle of editing this 500 page textbook on economics, which is about as exciting as it sounds, and my wife was working as a creative copywriter, and she was getting paid much, much more than me to edit this glossy one page ad. It looked like so much fun and so much easier than what I was doing. I’m like, “I’m doing something wrong, ‘cause there’s clearly a cap on where I am, and there’s no clap over here.” So shortly after I figured out how I could transition into marketing, into copywriting. It’s been a race every since. Rob: You’re working as an in house copywriter, but what does that look like today? What is the day to day ... How do you spend your time? What are you working on? Those kinds of things. Ryan: Yeah, so with Ramit at IWT / Growth Lab, I am the head of the sales team and the editorial tea...

Direct response copywriter and video sales letter expert, Valentina Volcinschi, is in the house for episode 51 of The Copywriter Club Podcast. Kira and Rob ask her about how she became a direct response copywriter and how she developed her skills—she’s written a ton of successful promotions including one that pulled in $7 million in 5 months and saved a company that was headed toward bankruptcy. She also talks about... •  how musician Jack White landed her a job in direct response •  the “secret” 1000-page book that helped launch her career •  how she injects emotion into her copy •  her “puzzle structure” for sales pages •  how to get started working in the survival niche •  the biggest differences between sales pages and VSLs •  the EPW writing process that you probably use but don’t know it •  how she researches for her assignments Plus Valentina goes deep on how feeling your customer’s pain can make all the difference in a sales message and how she entertains with her copy (she looks for wacky characters). We also asked her what she charges for sales pages, emails and VSLS and her advice for new direct response copywriters. As usual, lots of good ideas and advice.  Click the play button below to listen, or scroll down for a full transcript. The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: Sponsor: AirStory Jack White Madonna The Ultimate Desktop Copy Coach (no longer available) Ry Schwartz Daniel Sanchez Copy School Ben Settle Valentina’s website Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group Intro: Content (for now) Outro: Gravity Full Transcript: The Copywriter Club Podcast is sponsored by Airstory, the writing platform for professional writers who want to get more done in half the time. Learn more at Airstory.co/club. Rob: What if you could hang out with seriously talented copywriters and other experts, ask them about their successes and failures, their work processes and their habits, then steal an idea or two to inspire your own work? That’s what Kira and I do every week at The Copywriter Club Podcast. Kira: You’re invited to join the club for episode 51 as we chat with copywriter Valentina Volcinschi about entertaining your customers with your copy, writing with emotion, video sales letters, and what it takes to break through in hypercompetitive markets like survival, health, and sass. Rob: Hey, Kira. Hey, Valentina. Valentina: Hi, guys. How you doing? Kira: Welcome. Thanks for joining us. Valentina: Thank you for inviting me. Kira: A good place to start, Valentina, is just with your story, how you ended up as a direct response copywriter working on VSLs and even in the survival market. How did you get there? Valentina: Well, it’s quite a funny story because I actually owe my debut in direct response copywriting to Jack White from The White Stripes and The Dead Weather. Rob: Okay. This sounds like a good story. Valentina: Yeah, kind of. I started as an agency copywriter. I worked at a local agency for a couple of years, but then I had to switch cities. I moved to another city, so I had to look for a job. I found an internship as a direct response copywriter and I was like, “What is that? I had never heard about that before.” I read about it. I found it very interesting and I thought that is a very good opportunity to learn something new. What I did was apply to that copywriting internship. What I didn’t know was that the person in charge of the applications was the secretary of the company. What she did was check every single person who applied on Facebook to see if they have the same taste in music as her because she had no girls on the team. There are only guys and no one there to, I don’t know, share a common interest with her. She looked at my Facebook page and she saw that I had liked Jack White’s page. She was like, “This girl, I want this girl on my team.” Yes. She went to her boss and she oversold me on the whole thing.

For the 49th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, Sean D'Souza is here to talk about about the psychological tactics that get people to respond to your sales message. Kira and Rob go deep with Sean asking about how he started his business and what he wants from it today. Sean talks about: •  how he got into copywriting, then out, then back in. •  how a short presentation inspired by Jay Abraham inspired The Brain Audit •  the seven “red bags” of The Brain Audit and how they work together •  the questions he asks when creating a sales page •  the “x-ray vision” problem that books and courses suffer from •  why teaching is the best kind of selling •  how to establish yourself as an expert •  what kind of testimonials you should have on your sales pages (would you believe they should be 1500 words?) • and more... Perhaps most importantly for overworked copywriters, we asked Sean how he manages to take three months of vacation every year and how his morning routine helps him maintain his energy and effectiveness. These are ideas we need to try. Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript. The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: Sponsor: AirStory Leo Burnett Psychotactics Good to Great by Jim Collins Jay Abraham The Brain Audit 5000 BC Superman Article Writing Course Six questions for testimonials Mixergy interview Michael Phelps Bob Bowman The Three Month Vacation Podcast Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group Intro: Content (for now) Outro: Gravity Full Transcript: The Copywriter Club Podcast is sponsored by Airstory, the writing platform for professional writers who want to get more done in half the time. Learn more at Airstory.co/club. Rob: What if you could hangout with seriously talented copywriters and other experts, ask them about their successes and failures, their work processes and their habits, then steal an idea or two to inspire your own work? That’s what Kira and I do every week at The Copywriter Club Podcast. Kira: You’re invited to join the club for Episode 49 as we chat with author, speaker, cartoonist, and copywriter Sean D’Souza about psychological triggers that get customers to say yes, creating brand fanatics, how to become an expert in any field, and why he takes so much time off to recharge. Welcome, Sean. Thanks for joining us. Rob: Hey, Sean. Sean: It’s a pleasure to speak to both of you. Kira: Well, we’ve love to start with your story. How did you end up as a copywriter and a business owner? Sean: I always wanted to be a copywriter. When I was in university, that’s what I wanted to do. I had this goal, when I was going to be 30, I was going to be in this agency. I was going to be creative director of that agency. So it was very clear to me, which is why in university when I was studying accounting and stuff, my grades started to go down for the first time in my life. As soon as I left university, I went to Leo Burnett, which is the … I lived in Mumbai, India, and the kind of branch of Leo Burnett that was there. I went and spoke to the creative director, and she said, “You know you’re just a cartoonist. You’re not a copywriter.” I said, “Yes, I know that, but here’s what I’ll do. I’ll work with you a month and at the end of the month, you decide whether you want me to stay, and then you pay me. Or you know if I don’t like you after a month, then I’ll leave.” So it was pretty brash, but they took me on and that was the start of working with several advertising agencies. We’re going back now to 1995, I think, so it’s a long time ago. So I worked in a couple of agencies, and then, at some point, I started thinking, “Well, this is not what I want to do,” and I went back to cartooning. At that point, I was drawing cartoons for these magazines, but also for these organizations. What I found was their copy was really bad, and that my cartoons were getting kind of mutilated or defaced or ...

Do you struggle with impostor syndrome (or more accurately impostor complex)? Then you’re going to love this episode. Tanya Geisler stops by The Copywriter Club Podcast to talk with Rob and Kira all about why we struggle to believe in ourselves and our work. It’s an evolutionary behavior that’s designed to protect us, but in today’s modern world, often keeps us from doing our best and most important work. In this interview Tanya shares: •  the background on the “discovery” of impostor complex •  how it affects both men and women •  the three primary reasons we have impostor complex •  the 12 lies of the impostor complex •  the six behavioral traits we default to when we experience impostor complex Plus Tanya shares a simple “hack” for dealing with the impostor complex when it rears its ugly head. You’re going to want to listen to this one. Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript. The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: Sponsor: AirStory Tanya’s TED Talk Pauline Clance Suzanne Imes Secret Thoughts of Successful Women Neil Gaimon Amanda Palmer Meryl Streep Maya Angelou John Lennon Brene Brown Dunning Kruger Effect Liz Gilbert Chumba Wumba OpenSource.com Mean Girls Amy Cuddy Malcom Gladwell Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group Intro: Content (for now) Outro: Gravity Full Transcript: The Copywriter Club Podcast is sponsored by Airstory, the writing platform for professional writers who want to get more done in half the time. Learn more at Airstory.co/club. Rob: What if you could hang out with seriously talented copywriters and other experts, ask them about their successes and failures, their work processes, and their habits, then steal an idea or two to inspire your own work. That’s what Kira and I do every week at The Copywriter Club Podcast. Kira: You’re invited to join the club for Episode 47 as we chat with leadership coach Tanya Geisler about the Imposter Syndrome and owning your authority, working with a coach, amplifying your voice, and how copywriters can deal with the comparison trap. Rob: Hey, Tanya. Hey, Kira. Kira: You’re welcome. Tanya: That’s so much for having me. Real excited to be here. Rob: We’re excited to have you here. Kira: Yeah. Tanya, you were recommended from one of our club members, Helen, who said that all the conversations in our club right now are ... Well, not all of them, but a lot of them are around feeling like an imposter, a lot of self-doubt, especially because we have a lot of new copywriters in our club. This is what you talk about day in and day out. So we’re really grateful that you’re here to kind of just address this challenge that we all are facing head on, and hopefully we can help some copywriters along the way. Tanya: May it be so. Kira: A good place to start is with your story. You know what, especially as I’ve heard you, I’ve heard your name in the past, watched your TED video, checked out your website, and you’ve stepped into your starring role, but I always wonder, when did you do that, and was it easy for you? Were you always in a starring role? Could you tell us your story? Tanya: I want to laugh. The first thing I want to do is laugh. Yeah, it was so easy. No, not much about this has been easy at all. It’s been tons of self-doubt, tons of, “What do I know? Who am I?” I talk about there are 12 lies that the Imposter Complex wants us to believe. And I believed them for probably the first ... Even if I put a name, a number on this, I worry that it’s going to trigger people, but really and truly for probably the first four to five years of my work as a leadership coach I was really coming up against the Imposter Complex, like huge. And what I started to recognize was this through line that was inhibiting me from stepping into my starring role. That wasn’t the language that I would’ve had back then, but the through line that was inhibiting me from being ...

This is the 45th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast and we're joined by online business expert Zach Spuckler. As you listen, you’ll see that Zach’s energy and enthusiasm is contagious—and it quickly becomes clear why we booked him for the show. Zach shares how he started his first business at age 12, started a food blog and a few other businesses before deciding he needed to work in a business that he loved. In the interview Zach talks about: •  how he knew it was time to do “something new” in his business •  how he built his “authority” as an expert (and what you should do to build yours) •  his process to ensure he focuses on the most important things first •  his approach to discipline and showing up every day •  what his idea of great copy is (we think it’s spot on), and •  how he uses funnels in his business Zach also shares his thoughts about what beginning copywriters can do to get their businesses off the ground and the massive difference a team and systems can make for your business. To hear it all, simply click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript. The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: Sponsor: AirStory Heart Soul Hustle Amy Porterfield James Wedmore Jeff Bezos (Amazon) Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group Intro: Content (for now) Outro: Gravity Full Transcript: The Copywriter Club Podcast is sponsored by Airstory, the writing platform for professional writers who want to get more done in half the time. Learn more at Airstory.co/club. Rob: What if you could hang out with seriously talented copywriters and other experts, ask them about their successes and failures, their work processes and their habits then steal an idea or two to inspire your own work? That’s what Kira and I do every week at the Copywriter Club Podcast. Kira: You’re invited to join the club for episode 45 as we chat with online business strategist Zach Spuckler about starting a business from scratch with no list and no prospects, how to create Facebook ads and funnels that work, the critical part discipline plays in a successful business and how we can think bigger about our businesses. Rob: Hey Zach, Kira! Kira: How’s it going? Welcome Zach. Zach: Thanks for having me. Rob: Yeah, it’s great to have you here. Zach: I am excited to be here. Kira: Zach, I think a great place to start is with your story especially for people or copywriters who don’t know who you are and what you’re all about. Zach: Absolutely. So my story interestingly enough starts about 10 years ago when I was about 12 years old. The only reason I remember that it starts when I was 12 is I made my first dollar online and I had to use my dad’s social security number because I wasn’t actually old enough to get paid yet. So really he made my first dollar online. I just cashed the check and did the work so to speak. Over the last 10 years, I started and I’ve done everything online that you can imagine in terms of dabbling. I don’t have extensive knowledge of everything, but if you can make a buck doing it online, there’s a good chance I’ve tried it. Whether it’s website flipping. I did some affiliate marketing through Amazon for a while. I used to run some niche sites. I was in a direct sales company that I still get a tiny almost not worth mentioning commission check for most weeks. I’ve done food blogging and digital courses in the marketing space and out of the marketing space. I’ll fast forward to save time a little bit, but about a year and a half, two years ago, I was running a food blog. I kind of hit this wall where I loved my food blog so much. It was starting to generate revenue. People were coming to me asking me about how to get more reach on their blog. We’ve got Pinterest pins now that are up to 10,000, 20,000 re-pins. We were getting featured in some major publications in the food blogging space. It was all really fine and dandy but I started to kin...

Former professional basketball player and current email copywriter, Big Jason Henderson, joins Rob and Kira for the 43rd episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. Jason shares how he went from Australian basketball star to highly paid email copywriter and in the process talks about: •  the too-easy-to-believe advice for writing great emails •  how he keeps his emails personal by writing to “one” person •  the recommended number of links that should go in every email (jk) • the tools he uses to track clicks and revenue •  his go-to writing formula for emails •  what it means to sell the click vs. sell the product •  which is the better motivator—the carrot or the stick •  why there’s no such thing as an email expert, and •  how he manages stress and overwork (when he doesn’t sleep for two days) Another eye-opening episode packed with lots of lessons, tactics and strategies you can use in your own copywriting business. Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript. The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: Sponsor: AirStory MECLabs Marketing Sherpa Email Summit Gary Halbert Caleb O Dowd Scott Haines Revolution Golf Clicky Email Response Warrior Course Clayton Makepeace Dr. Flint McGlaughlin Tepsii Arman Morin Seminar GKIC (Dan Kennedy’s events) Ryan Deiss Russel Brunson Tony Flores John Carlton’s Simple Writing System Samuel Markowitz Amit Suneja UFC Parris Lampropolous David Deutsch Shortcutcopywritingsecrets.com Tim Ferris Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group Intro: Content (for now) Outro: Gravity Full Transcript: The Copywriter Club Podcast is sponsored by Airstory, the writing platform for professional writers who want to get more done in half the time. Learn more at Airstory.co/club. Rob: What if you can hang out with seriously talented copy writers and other experts, ask them about their successes and failures, their work processes and their habits, then steal an idea or two to inspire your own work, that’s what Kira and I do every week and The Copywriter Club Podcast. Kira: You’re invited to join the club for episode 43 as we chat with email copywriter big Jason Henderson about what he has learned about sending more than a billion emails, creating high performance email funnels, the things you should do with email that the experts tell you not to do, and why your value proposition is the most important element for increasing conversation. Rob: Hi Kira. Hi Jason. Jason: Hi, good to be here. Kira: Great to have you Jason. Jason: Thanks for having me. Rob: Jason, I think we really want to start with your story, but before we get into that, I got to know how big are you? Jason: I’m only about 6'11". Rob: Okay, so not that big then. Kira: Not that big. That’s nothing. Rob: Yeah, why don’t we start with your story. You’re famous for email, tell us how you got started as an email copywriter? Jason: In 1996, I was playing professional basketball in Australia, and it was really laid back so I had plenty of free time and the local universities let me go into their computer labs, so I was just going around and I started with Acl and local businesses, and I started doing email and e-commerce back then. Little did I know, that e-commerce was going to be huge, I should have stuck with it. Yeah, I just started with that and I became ... Have you heard of the about.com brand? Rob: Yes. Jason: So back then, they were the mining company and I was the exercise guy. So they basically worked with us to drive as much traffic as possible, so they were teaching us about building email lists, writing articles, attracting free traffic, and for email all they said was, “You know it’s like having a one on one conversation, so if you can do that, then you can write an email.” And that’s basically all I knew. I was like, “Yeah, I can do that.” I think that’s an advantage for me starting way back then ...

Author, coach and career change expert, Jenny Blake, joins Rob and Kira in The Copywriter Club Podcast studio this week to talk about why she organizes her book shelf by color : ). We also talk about her book, Pivot: The Only Move that Matters is Your Next One. But this isn’t just a pitch for Jenny’s book. She walked us through the process but also talked about: •  How to figure out your strengths then determine where you want to be a year from now •  How to scan the horizon for opportunities, people, and skills that might take you to the next level •  How to experiment with your pivots to eliminate risk and find things that work •  How to deal with your inner CFO who says, “you’re out of your mind” to try something new or different •  The “Do, Drop or Delegate” formula for staying engaged in your work •  Why you should create scalable streams of income as part of your business, and •  How to build a platform so you get noticed If you’re thinking about changing careers to become a copywriter, or want to explore a new niche, or simply want to make sure you’re on the right career track, this episode is a must listen. Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript. The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: Sponsor: AirStory Life After College Pivot Pivot Method Tool Kit Momentum Actionable Communications SquareSpace She Can Coterie Powerbars Stand Out by Dorie Clark Harvard Business Review Fast Company Forbes Huffington Post Medium Book Yourself Solid by Michael Port David Moldawer Ramit Sethi Marie Forleo Daily Rituals by Mason Currey Delegation Ninja (use the code TCC to save $100 or just click here) Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group Intro: Content (for now) Outro: Gravity Full Transcript: The Copywriter Club Podcast is sponsored by Airstory, the writing platform for professional writers who want to get more done in half the time. Learn more at Airstory.co/club. Rob: What if you could hang out with seriously talented copywriters and other experts, ask them about their successes and failures, their work processes and their habits, then steal an idea or two to inspire your own work? That’s what Kira and I do every week at The Copywriter Club Podcast. Kira: You’re invited to join the Club for episode 41, as we chat with author and career strategist Jenny Blake about her Pivot Method and what it means for copywriters and others who might be wondering what’s next, leaving Google to start her own business, dealing with burnout, and whether she really organizes the books on her shelf by color, not subject. Rob: Hey, Kira. Hey, Jenny. Kira: Hello. Jenny: Hey, thank you so much for having me. Yes, indeed, I organize by color, but I will tell you, I know where every book is because the color imprint stays in my mind. It’s really easy to zoom in, like, “Oh, yeah, that was a red book, it’s over here.” It’s not as confusing as you might think. Rob: I think a lot of writers, if they go to your website, they’re going to see the video or the pictures that you’ve got of your bookshelf. That’s one of the first things, I’m like, “Oh my gosh, all of the white books are together.” Kira: I know. I love it. Rob: “All of the green books are together.” Jenny: Oh, yeah. Rob: It makes me laugh. Jenny: The funny thing is I’ve honed this thing over three or four years of living in the same apartment, so I’ll be watching TV and I’m like, “Oh, that book needs to move one slot to the left.” What you see, it’s like my bonsai tree. I just get to prune at it every single day. What you don’t see is the back of this Ikea shelf is all the reject books that don’t have a pretty color. Rob: That is too funny. Jenny, I think a lot of our listeners may not know who you are, have seen your work. You’ve got a fantastic book that we definitely want to talk about, but maybe you could start by just telling us a little bit about your story....

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Copywriter and cold emailing specialist, Jorden Roper, joins Kira and Rob in The Copywriter Club Podcast studio for the 39th episode. Jorden is a three time college dropout who lost her job (the same day her husband lost his job at the same company) and managed to find several freelance clients within a month. She shares how she did it, and how she used cold emailing to find clients plus: •  How you can do cold emailing that lands clients on day one •  The cold emailing formula she used to grow her business •  How she used Pinterest to brainstorm her brand •  How to be fearless as you “put yourself out there” •  How she uses Youtube to attract a different audience to her blog •  How much work she put into creating and launching her course •  The biggest mistake she sees new writers making today This one is packed with useful information and ideas any writer, beginner or expert, can use to grow and improve their business. Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript. The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: Sponsor: AirStory Craig’s List Problogger Job Board Limeleads Pinterest Jorden’s video about haters on Youtube Writing Revolt Blog Cold Emailing Course Mariah Coz’s Launch Your Signature Course Maggie Patterson Jorden’s FB Community Jorden on Twitter Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group Intro: Content (for now) Outro: Gravity Full Transcript: The Copywriter Club Podcast is sponsored by Airstory, the writing platform for professional writers who want to get more done in half the time. Learn more at Airstory.co/club. Rob: What if you could hang out with seriously talented copywriters, and other experts, ask them about their successes and failures, their work processes and their habits, then steal an idea or two to inspire your own work. That’s what Kira and I do every week at the Copywriter Club Podcast. Kira: You’re invited to join the club for episode 39 as we chat with copywriter Jorden Roper about getting fired from bad jobs, and finding copywriting to pay the bills, using YouTube for brand building and outreach, what she has done differently from other copywriters to get an edge, and how copywriters can find great clients with cold emailing. Rob: Hey, Kira. Hey, Jorden. Jorden: Hey, guys. Kira: Hello. Welcome, Jorden. Jorden: Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. Rob: Yeah. It’s about time. We’ve been trying to get you on the podcast for a little while. It’s time you got here. Jorden: Yes, I’m so excited to be here. Thank you so much. Rob: Jorden, I think maybe we should start with your story. I know you’ve shared this a lot with your list, but a lot of our listeners probably haven’t heard it. You went through a time in your life when you were going through different jobs and landed where you are. Tell us about that. Jorden: Well, before I started my freelance writing business, pretty much right before, I had been working at this full-time job at a marketing agency. I was doing some writing there. It was very stressful. It was a super toxic work environment. I know a lot of people who are probably trying to break into freelance writing can relate to that, like just going to work every day, sitting in your car in the morning, and just wanting to scream or cry or whatever before you walk up to the office. That’s kind of the situation that I was in. I ended up getting fired from that job. Just a few months before that actually, my husband started working at the same job. When his contract ended, they decided to just let me go, too. Kira: What? Jorden: Yeah, we’re both out of work on the same day. Kira: Oh, no. Jorden: We walk out of the office together like, “Oh my God. What are we going to do? This is insane.” It was very stressful. Actually, I had some other stuff going on at the time, too, just within ... I think within the same week before this happened,

Copywriter (and photographer) Misha Hettie is in the Copywriter Club studio to talk copy and Facebook Live this week. Kira and Rob asked Misha about her business and she shared a ton of great advice, including her thoughts on: •  the importance of branding yourself as a copywriter (and not looking like everyone else) •  how she became a “brand story evangelist” •  what beginners should do to get started on Facebook Live •  what is the biggest mistake people make on Facebook Live •  her “big rock method” for creating content for Facebook •  her “don’t-miss-it” advice to everyone seeking balance in their lives As usual, there’s a ton of great information in this episode. If you’ve ever thought about using video in your business, this is don’t miss advice. Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript. The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: Sponsor: AirStory Misha’s website Misha’s about page Silicone Valley Title Generator Joanna Wiebe Todd Herman 13 Reasons Why Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group Intro: Content (for now) Outro: Gravity Full Transcript: The Copywriter Club Podcast is sponsored by Airstory, the writing platform for professional writers who want to get more done in half the time. Learn more at Airstory.co/club. Rob: What if you could hang out with seriously talented copywriters and other experts, ask them about the successes and failures, their work processes and their habits, then steal an idea or two to inspire your own work? That’s was Kira and I do every week at The Copywriter Club Podcast. Kira: You’re invited to join the Club for Episode 35, as we chat with copywriter Misha Heady about using social media in her copywriting business, and what other writers could be doing better there. Juggling her time as a parent, writer, photographer and coach, how Facebook Live has impacted her business and spending an afternoon taking photos of Rob and me in San Antonio. Rob: Hey Misha. Kira: Hello Misha. Misha: Hey guys, how are you? Rob: We’re great, how are you? Kira: Thanks. Misha: Yeah, I’m okay. I’m having a bit of a morning here, and I don’t know if you can her my dog in the background, but I apologize if you could. Rob: We did hear a little bit but I think was might be able with cut most of that out. Misha: Okay, I’m sorry. I swear to God. She’s like, “Oh, you’re on a call, let me go freak out about something. Kira: It’s okay. I think it’s been one of those days for all three of us, which means this is going to be a great conversation. Rob: Exactly. Misha: Yeah. Kira: So, Misha, let’s start with, you know, where you come from. Because you are this multi-talented, creative, big personality, you’ve played a really big role in the copywriter club, so where did you come from. What were you doing before you were in the club as a copywriter? Misha: Well, Kira, when a man and a woman love each other very, very much ... okay, JK, terrible, terrible joke. So, where do I come from? I used to be a nine-to-fiver, like most people, and one day I lost my job, and I was like, I got to figure this out. It’s actually a longer story than that, but that’s, you know, the gist of it. And in that last position, I had been using a lot of social media tools to kind of grow people’s knowledge of our gallery. It was a tile gallery. This is like way back in the day when Flicker was like the hottest thing around. To grow people’s knowledge of our gallery, and at the same time I was studying photography more, so that is basically the short story of how I became and entrepreneur, because it’s not a very poetic story, but it’s the truth. Rob: Walk us this step-by-step. So, you lost your job, and then suddenly you weren’t a writer/photographer, whatever. As for as setting up your business, tell us more about that process. Misha: Oh, no. It was literally that next day. No, just kidding.

Our first guest to make an encore appearance on the club podcast is Canadian copywriter, Ry Schwartz, who just flew in from Costa Rica in time to talk with Rob and Kira about: • the new “product” Ry is launching soon with his girlfriend • using masterminds to meet potential clients • how he deals with “freak out” • how he vets clients (sometimes he asks them to sing with him) • how he conducts his R&D (and what client work has to do with it) • what he does to get people to take “uncomfortable action” • how he invoices for “giving a damn” • what he would do today if he had to start over from scratch There’s so much good stuff in this episode that we’ve already listened to it three times before we released it. Don’t miss all the great advice Ry has to share. Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript. The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: Sponsor: AirStory Copy School Joanna Wiebe Marc Angelo Capalla Superhero Academy The Wonder Twins The Babysitters Club Futurism High Existence The other Ry Schwartz podcast Marian Schembari Carpool Karoke Sam Woods TGIFridays Amy Porterfield Tarzan Kay Gabby Bernstein Jeff Walker Ryan Levesque Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group Intro: Content (for now) Outro: Gravity Full Transcript: The Copywriter Club Podcast is sponsored by Airstory, the writing platform for professional writers who want to get more done in half the time. Learn more at Airstory.co/club. Rob: What if you could hang out with seriously talented copywriters and other experts, ask them about their successes and failures, their work processes and their habits, then steal an idea or two to inspire your own work? That’s what Kira and I do every week at The Copywriter Club Podcast. Kira: You’re invited to join the club for Episode 33 as we chat with copywriter Ry Schwartz about what he would do if he had to start over from scratch, how he thinks through email sequences, how to focus when you’re freaking out, and vetting new clients. Joins conversation in progress... Kira: Well, maybe we can start there. We’re not doing an official intro, I don’t think. I want to hear more about your travels and where you’ve been and why you’ve been traveling and what you’ve been doing off the radar. Ry: Yes. Yes, so I’ve been really on the road since mid-February. I’ve been location-independent for three or four years right now. I never really took advantage. I get very romantic about the idea of travel, but in practical terms, I can’t leave my house without packing for Cliff Bars, just because I have this intense fear of starvation. It really took a lot to pull the trigger on that, but it’s something that my girlfriend, Sue, and I were talking about for two years, just even considering relocating to Costa Rica for the winter, because who wants to be in Montreal in the winter? Then yeah, I finally pulled the trigger. I surprised her with this three-week trip, part of it at this mastermind. A few of the things are already taken care of for us and we don’t have to pack too many Cliff Bars. Yeah, we ventured down there in mid-February. It was initially supposed to be on the backend, at the end of the launch I was doing with the Copy Hackers. We were going to launch Copy School. I was going to create my new program within in, and then we were just going to celebrate with this three-week cathartic release in the jungle. As luck would have it, our launch dates got pushed back. I was actually in the jungle trying to get any kind of Wi-Fi possible in any location possible in order to write emails for the launch and just work with that pivot. God bless Joanna for being patient with that. I’m like, “I literally am in the middle of the jungle. There is no Wi-Fi present. The only Wi-Fi providers are three hours away and they really don’t give a crap about my product launch right now.” Yeah,

Kate Toon joins The Copywriter Club Podcast for episode 31—all the way from Australia. She co-hosts Hot Copy, which we’ve jokingly referred to as “the second best copywriter” podcast. She casually throws out words like “scuppered” and “rubbish” and “bloomin’” as she talks with Rob and Kira about: • the backdoor she opened to land a copywriter job at Ogilvy • the “agency” skills she learned that she applies in her freelance work every day • why freelancing is so much harder than working at an agency • why creating products isn’t the path to easy street you might think it is • how she created products and courses—all while working for her clients • why she’s taking a year off from reading blog posts and articles And there’s much more in this episode to tickle your ears. Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript. The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: Sponsor: AirStory Ogilvy Mad Men The Clever Copywriting School Kate’s SEO Course Rand Fishkin Mustache wax Hootsuite Zencastr Moz Neil Patel QuickSprout Oprah Winfrey Netflix Crazy Ex-Girlfriend This American Life Ira Glass The Sydney Morning Herald The Misfit Entrepreneur (Kate’s Book) Kate’s website Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group Intro: Content (for now) Outro: Gravity Full Transcript: The Copywriter Club Podcast is sponsored by Airstory, the writing platform for professional writers who want to get more done in half the time. Learn more at Airstory.co/club. Rob: What if you could hang out with seriously talented copywriters and other experts, ask them about their successes and failures, their work processes and their habits, then steal an idea or two to inspire your own work? That’s what Kira and I do every week at the Copywriter Club Podcast. Kira: You’re invited to join the Club for Episode 31 as we chat with copywriter SEO expert and misfit entrepreneur, Kate Tune about creating three successful businesses without a plan, SEO copywriting, running a podcast and writing conference and how to rock a hula hoop. Rob: Hey Kira, hey Kate. Kate: Hello. Kira: Hey Rob, hey Kate, thanks for being here. Kate: Thank you for that lovely intro. Rob: We try to change it up with every guest and you’ve called yourself the misfit entrepreneur so we thought, yeah it was appropriate. Kate: Thanks, yeah. And you managed to drop the hula hooping in, as well which is awesome. Rob: Exactly. Kira: Well Kate, I think a great place to start is with how you became an SEO copywriter consultant and then we can talk about your job as a chatline operator later. Kate: Yeah, so I probably went a fairly traditional route. I’m not sure everybody’s route to copywriting is so different, isn’t it? So, I went to university and did an utterly pointless degree in history, Roman history or something like, can’t remember. And then I left and I desperately wanted to be a magazine journalist but I had racked up so much debt at university that I had to get a real job as a, pretty much a secretary. Then I worked in various jobs, in events, in publishing and eventually got hired by this weird agency that was building something called websites, way back. I’m showing my age, now. I worked there for a few years and then I moved over to Australia and managed to get a job at Ogilvy, which is a big advertising agency in America and also it’s over here in Australia, as well. From there I transitioned into being a copywriter and worked on lots of big brands, global brands and kind of hated it, kind of didn’t like the agency life and as I got older, it got harder. Then eventually I got with child and could no longer be an agency copywriter because you have to work like 70 hours a day. So I gave it all up and became a freelance copywriter. Whoo hoo! That was a potted history. Rob: Let’s unpack that jus a little bit. We talk quite a bit with copywriters who are doing freelance stuff but...

In the 27th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, Kira and Rob talk with a copywriter known by one name—yep, just like Cher, Prince, and Madonna—Tepsii. She shares her secret for getting referrals before she starts working with her clients, how she landed 10 clients at a conference by asking a few questions and how she organizes her projects and communicates with clients using Trello. And that’s just the first 20 minues. Don’t miss this great interview. Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript. The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: Jen Scalia Man Bun Ry Schwartz Hattie Brazely Trello Google Drive Sold Out and Booked Solid Psycho-Cybernetics Melanie Duncan Marie Forleo Danielle Laporte Hillary Weiss Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group Intro: Content (for now) Outro: Gravity Full Transcript: Tepsii dishes on how she went from a nobody to a superstar copywriter in a single month... Rob: What if you could hang out with seriously talented copywriters and other experts, ask them about their successes and failures, their work processes and their habits, then steal an idea or two to inspire your own work. That’s what Kira and I do every week at The Copywriter Club Podcast. Kira: You’re invited to join the club for Episode 27 as we chat with a copywriter and business coach known by her first name only, Tepsii, about quitting her job and earning enough within four months to retire her husband, getting the right mindset, as well as getting rid of limiting beliefs, and writing with personality. Rob: Hey, Kira. Hey, Tepsii. Tepsii: Hey. How’s it going? Kira: Hello. Tepsii, we’re excited to have you here today. Tepsii: I’m super excited to be here because if I was a brand-new copywriter, this would’ve helped me so much. I’m really always excited to help the next generation of people. Rob: We hope that we’re helping out a few experienced copywriters as well, and maybe you can help us with that in sharing some seriously great wisdom today. Kira: Tepsii, I was just going to share, I first heard about at a ... This is going to sound so posh, which is not my life ... but at a rooftop party in Manhattan, with a pool nearby. I was at Jen Scalia's membership party. I just randomly got an email from her. I like Jen, so I showed up just to mingle. I remember at this party chatting with different women and everyone was talking about you. Here I am, a copywriter. I’m like not pitching myself, but I’m chatting and trying to network. Everyone was like, “Yeah, there’s this other copywriter, Tepsii. She’s going to be here tonight.” Everyone was so excited to meet you. That was the first time I heard about you. I was like, “Who is this woman? I need to meet her. I need to know who she is.” Ever since then, I’ve kind of just like kept you on my radar and just knew that we wanted to chat with you about your almost like overnight success in copywriting. I know there’s a lot more to it that we can unpack in this show. We can start with just how did you become Tepsii, no last name, like Tepsii the copywriter? Tepsii: I’m all about just one name to make it easier. My domain name is super easy. I just introduce myself. We don’t have to confuse me with any other Tepsii’s out there. My business anniversary was two years ago. I was a digital nobody. Nobody knew my name. I never got any shout outs. It still feels weird to hear you say you went somewhere and people were talking about me. I think that’s kind of rude that you’re introducing yourself and somebody wants to talk about a whole different person. Like, who they heck are you- Kira: I know. I was like, “What about me? I’m a copywriter, too.” No, no, no. They didn’t care. They didn’t care. Tepsii: I apologize on their behalf for that. I care about who you are. My story is that I started out Digital Nobody. I was really interested in life coaching and how to go about making my life more...

Shanelle Mullin, copywriter and content curator for ConversionXL joins The Copywriter Club Podcast with Kira and Rob talk to talk about what copywriters really need to know about testing, how she picked her career path at the age of 15, what writers can do to network more effectively at conferences like CXL Live (where Shanelle plays a big role) and how she has connected with so many “big names” online. After the last marathon episode, this one is a more reasonable length. Lots to learn here... Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript. The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: Sponsor: AirStory Life Lessons Learned from 10 Years of Marketing Habbo Hotel Rene Warren OnBoardly Klout Joanna Wiebe Gary V Tim Ferris Peep Laja Talia Wolf ConversionXL Live ConversionXL Institute A/B Testing Mastery Psychological Backfiring Buying Modalities Oli Gardner Sean Ellis Jared Spool Krista Seiden Joel Klettke Shanelle’s twitter Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group Intro: Content (for now) Outro: Gravity Full Transcript: Kira: The Copywriter Club Podcast is sponsored by Airstory, the writing platform for professional writers who want to get more done in half the time. Learn more at Airstory.co/club. Rob: What if you could hang out with the seriously talented copywriters and other experts, ask them about their successes and failures, their work processes and their habits, then steal an idea or two to inspire your own work? That’s what Kira and I do every week at The Copywriter Club Podcast. Kira: You’re invited to join the club for episode 23 as we chat with copywriter and content creator Shanelle Mullin about choosing a career at the ripe old age of 15, taking risks, conversion optimization, analytics, and curating content for fast-growing startups like Onboardly and ConversionXL. Rob: Hey, Kira, Shanelle. Shanelle: Hey guys. Kira: Hi. Thanks for joining us, Shanelle. Shanelle: Yeah, thanks for having me. Kira: Great place for us to start is with an article you recently published, I believe you recently published it, on Medium entitled Life Lessons Learned from 10 Years of Marketing. It was a great read and I know you mention that you really got into marketing at the age of 15. I would love to start there and find out what compelled you to jump into this world of marketing at such a young age? Rob: Yeah, what kind of a kid thinks, “Hey, I know what I’m ready to do already”? Shanelle: Yeah, I mean, it’s kind of a weird story. I was probably 13 at the time and I was playing a game called Habbo Hotel, which if you’re not familiar ... Kira: What is that game? Shanelle: You create like a little pixel avatar of yourself and then you walk around this hotel and you can chat with people from around the world and you can collect furniture and play games and it was really fun when I was 13 and I was obsessed with it. Kira: Wait, it sounds fun right now. I kind of want to play. Rob: Check into that. Shanelle: Yeah. I decided to look into other people who were making these mini-Habbo Hotels and they were basically just teenagers like me and they were all hanging out on this forum. I joined this forum and I just ended up talking to them and getting to know some of the marketing people and I had no idea what marketing was of course because I was 13. They just explained it to me like simple price, product, placement, and promotion terms and I was like, “That sounds amazing,” for some reason. I started reading about it and by the time I was 15 I had gotten my first marketing gig, which was exciting. Rob: Where do you go to from there? You know, you’re 15, you’ve basically started your career. Tell us the rest of the story. What happens? How does it unfold over the next few years? Shanelle: Yeah, so I actually started working for the guy who ran this forum that I was part of.

Joel Klettke stops by The Copywriter Club Podcast studio to chat with Kira and Rob talk about how he launched his business as a highly paid copywriter, his process (and a roadmap for a roadmapping session), testing rates, working with other writers and relentlessly chasing down referrals to bring in new business. We asked Joel if anyone can learn copywriting and accomplish what he has, he didn’t sugar coat the answer (you’ll have to listen to hear what he said). And while we say this about a lot of our episodes, this one truly is stellar. The advice Joel shares should be a permanent part of every copywriter’s playbook. Check it out: Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript. The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: Sponsor: AirStory Upwork ProBlogger Job Board HubSpot Insight Squared Joel’s Process Page Brennan Dunn MozCon Joanna Wiebe Kate Toon The Copywriter Club Facebook Page Business Casual Copywriting Case Study Buddy Neil Patel Joel at TedX ConversionXL SearchLove Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group Intro: Content (for now) Outro: Gravity Full Transcript: Kira: The Copywriter Club Podcast is sponsored by Airstory, the writing platform for professional writers who want to get more done in half the time. Learn more at Airstory.co/Club. Rob: What if you could hang out with seriously talented copywriters and other experts, ask them about their successes and failures, their work process and their habits, then steal an idea or two to inspire your own work? That’s what Kira and I do every week at The Copywriter Club Podcast. Kira: You’re invited to join the club for episode 21 as we chat with conversion copywriter Joel Klettke about leaving a guaranteed six figure job for the uncertainties of freelance, the power of case studies to grow a business, speaking to audiences like Conversion XL and SearchLove, and what he did to land a big client like HubSpot. Rob: Hey, Kira and Joel. Kira: Hey. Joel: Hey, how’s it going? Rob: Good, how are you doing? Joel: I’m good. It’s finally warm here, so I’m enjoying not shivering in my boots as I try to type things. Rob: That’s always a good thing, right? Joel: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Rob: So Joel, we should start off with your story, how you got to be where you are. I know there’s a lot of different things that we can cover as we talk about that, but you left a very good job in the SEO world to take on a job as a freelancer, and we’d love to hear more about that and how you were so successful so quickly. Joel: Sure, so the short story is that I’d been working for an agency for almost five years. I’d kind of just fallen into that job. I really enjoyed SEO, but I knew it wasn’t what I wanted to forever. I’d always loved to write, but I’d never seen a business case for it. I saw the whole digital industry turning its head towards content. Content marketing, the role of copy and landing pages. I thought, “Okay, well if ever there was a time to take what I feel like I’m good at and turn it into a business, the time is now.” I had told the company that I was working for, “This is it. I’m checking out. I’m going out on my own.” In my head, I had kind of made up my mind to say, “Yeah, that’s what I’m going to do.” Shortly after I did that, I got an offer to go in house at quite a big firm with clients who are household names, big car companies and household brands, and it was a guaranteed six figure pay day. All of a sudden, these things that I’d thought I’d been so confident in kind of got thrown through a loop. Do I really want to go out on my own and be a writer? Everything I’ve read about this says I’m not going to make any money, I’m going to struggle to have clients, but do I really want to keep doing SEO and just have the same frustrations, and problems, and challenges on a bigger scale? Ultimately, I wrestled with it for a couple days, and thought, “No,

Upwork specialist Danny Maguiles joins Kira and Rob for the 19th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, where they talk about how to create a six-figure freelance writing career working with clients on Upwork, Danny's Crystal Ball technique for winning clients, and three things copywriters can do to separate themselves from all of the other writers out there. We didn't hold back in this one—we grill Danny on the truth about working on platforms like Upwork. And honestly, we were surprised by what he had to say. Don't miss this one... Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript. The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: Sponsor: AirStory Danny Interview at Bloomberg's Benchmark Podcast Upwork That Medium Post That Medium Post, Part II That Medium Post, Part III Freelance to Win Secrets of a Six Figure Upworker The Copywriter’s Handbook by Bob Bly Decisive by Dan and Chip Heath Start With Why by Simon Sinek Simon Sinek’s TED Talk Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group Intro: Content (for now) Outro: Gravity Full Transcript: Kira: The Copywriter Club Podcast is sponsored by Airstory, the writing platform for professional writers who want to get more done in half the time. Learn more at Airstory.co/club. Rob: What if you could hang out with seriously talented copywriters and other experts, ask them about their successes and failures, their work processes and their habits, then steal an idea or two to inspire your own work? That’s what Kira and I do every week on The Copywriter Club Podcast. Kira: You’re invited to join the club for episode 19, as we chat with copywriter Danny Margulies about his six figure success in Upwork, how copywriters can use job platforms to gain experience and grow their businesses, what he teaches other writers in his community and the shift from being overworked to running his own business. Rob: Hey, Kira and Danny. Danny: Hey, guys. Rob: Thanks for being here, Danny. So, I think a good place to start is your story before you started writing for Upwork and taking clients on Upwork and you really made a name for yourself. What were you doing before that? Danny: Not much is the short answer. It’s funny you should ask because people send me emails all the time and they’ll be like, “Oh, it’s so obvious you’re a great copywriter and you must have all this experience and I don’t have that much experience, so I can’t do this.” I’m like, “Whoa, take a step back, okay?” That’s like 10 assumptions too many. I’ll tell you, I was on Bloomberg News talking about freelancing about maybe six months ago and after the segment, I was talking to somebody who worked there. They were like, “Wow, I can totally see why you are able to take this to this level.” In my head, it’s kind of like one of those cartoons where my head is ... I got this bubbling image of me five years earlier, which is really not a very long time, picture this, sitting at my kitchen table unemployed. my wife and I both unemployed, expecting a baby. I have no college education. I have no real skills. The job I just quit was working for an insurance services company for 15 bucks an hour and by the way, just a spoiler for anyone listening, they really do pay you to lie. It is an awful, awful industry. All the stereotypes are true. Before that, I was working at a car dealership, another place where a lot of people get paid to lie. I made like 15 bucks an hour there. Before that I was doing telephone surveys. I would call people in the middle of dinner and say, basically, beg them for 10 minutes of their time, to take a survey. I had a series of really awful, non-career dead-end jobs and now I found myself ... it was Friday, July 20th of 2012 and I was just desperate. I had maybe a months worth of bills that I could pay with the tiny amount of money in my savings account. I mean, this is all very embarrassing, but I say it for a purpose,

Copywriter and analytics expert, Momoko Price, joins Rob and Kira for this 17th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast to talk about how she has created a unique niche business that combines copywriting with analytics, how she helps clients understand the importance of analytics, the course she created for ConversionXL and much more. Data geeks won't want to miss this episode—neither will any writer who works with clients that need more conversions. Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript. The people and stuff we mentioned on the show: Sponsor: AirStory Joanna Wiebe Conversion Optimization FB Group Peep and ConversionXL Momo’s Facebook page Kantan.io (Momo’s website) Kira’s website Rob’s website The Copywriter Club Facebook Group Intro: Content (for now) Outro: Gravity Full Transcript: Kira: The Copywriter Club Podcast is sponsored by Airstory, the writing platform for professional writers who want to get more done in half the time. Learn more at airstory.co/club. Rob: What if you could hang out with really talented copywriters and other experts, ask them about their successes and failures, their work processes and their habits, then steal an idea or two to inspire your own work? That’s what Kira and I try to do every week at the Copywriter Club Podcast. Kira: You’re invited to join the club for episode 17, as we chat with conversion copywriter and analytics expert Momoko Price about conversion optimization, the role analytics plays in her process, running a live copywriting course and how she’s attracted high-caliber clients like Intuit, Scotiabank, and AT&T. Hey Rob. Hey Momo! Rob: Kira. Momo. Momo: Hi. Kira: How’s it going? Thanks for being here, Momo. I think a good place to start with you, is kind of the story before this story. How did you end up as a conversion copywriter? Momo: Oh my god. Well, I started out ... okay, so I originally started out in Science. Can you hear me still? Rob: Yes. Momo: I started out in Science. I specialized in Evolutionary Biology. Went to grad school for that. Realized that, despite liking science and all that stuff, that lab work was not my lifestyle. I did not want to do that. And then I had always straddled between Science and also doing Journalism and Writing. It was kind of like a dual strength. So, I hopped over into Journalism right around the time of the financial crisis, and I worked as a copy editor for one of the larger newspapers in Canada, and did some freelance writing and stuff like that. And then as I started to do that ... I was living in Toronto and there’s a pretty healthy tech scene there. One of the things that really frustrated me when I was working in the news room, at a newspaper, was just you can kind of feel the luddite-ism in the newsroom. It was just the sheer feeling of apprehension when dealing with the internet and technology, and everything that was happening with publishing. I was like this is not where I want to be in my ... I don’t think it’s a good idea to be heading down, despite how much I like writing, I don’t necessarily see this being the best place to be. Like I want to actually be in a field of work that embraces technological innovation, as opposed to running screaming from it. Rob: Yeah. Momo: So then I can’t even remember how it happened but I met some people who were working at a couple of start-ups in Toronto, and then there was a guy who was founding one. He was like “I like the cut of your jib. I’m going to hire you.” I worked for him, and then the more I did that, I just started hanging out with more people in tech and eventually, that went from writing for tech and doing some freelance work and then I ... I can’t even remember how I started getting into conversion copywriting. Probably because I stumbled across Joanna Wiebe’s stuff and then when I started realizing that oh, there’s this whole world of writing,

It's time for another couple of questions in this week's edition of 'Ask Rob & Rob'. This week Tom & Reece ...Ask Rob & Rob – What's the minimum acceptable lease length? ...and are guaranteed yields too good to be true? The Robs give their take on these topics. What do you think? Head over to the forum to discuss. ASK YOUR OWN QUESTION TO ROB & ROB! Don't be shy! All you need to do is leave a message with your name and whatever's on your mind. Just pick up the phone and call 013 808 00035 (normal UK call rates apply). Or if you prefer, click here to leave a recording via your computer instead.   NEED MORE ANSWERS? The Property Hub Summit is the place to get all your questions personally answered by Rob & Rob, and build a network of other smart, motivated investors. Over the course of a full day at a swanky hotel we'll help you set your goals, form a plan to get you there, overcome your obstacles, and give you the support system you need to make sure nothing gets in your way. Just don't hang around - there are only four Summits each year, and just 16 places available at each! Interested? Click here to find out more. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This week on Ask Rob & Rob, Andy... Asks Rob & Rob – What checks should you make when buying remotely? This is somewhat of a specialist subject for The Robs, as they both invest this way, and run companies which help people to invest with a completely hands-off method.  This is an important question and Rob B starts by saying you need to be very clear in what you want from the people you work with. Give them really clear guidelines so people know exactly what is an investment you would consider, and what you wouldn't touch in a million years. This will help preserve your working relationships and save you all a lot of time and avoid frustration. Give as much detail as possible.  Rob D agrees with the advice given but also says to clarify all information given - even if it's coming from a trusted partner. Get images, check market information, and do your research. This will give you complete clarity on your investment, and you wont feel like you really need to be there on the ground. This method is not for everyone, but for us it works really well.    See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This week on Ask Rob & Rob, Sam... Asks Rob & Rob – What's the catch with student pods?   Rob D starts by agreeing that the propositions offered can look attractive and if all pans out as promised then they do indeed sound great. The key, however, is trying to figure out if things will work out as promised by the developer! So for this reason it's absolutely key to look at the previous projects of the developer and see if their history backs up their claims. Rob B is against student pods as he feels they're weighted heavily in favour of the people selling the product as opposed to those owning the product. He suggests that many of the claims made by the developers are greatly exaggerated at best. He also makes a very good point in saying that the mortgageability on student pods is pretty much non-existent, and the market if you want to sell is extremely limited.  Rob B finalises by saying he'd never buy one and he would never offer them to RMP customers - so no sitting on the fence here!  ASK YOUR OWN QUESTION TO ROB & ROB! Don't be shy! All you need to do is leave a message with your name and whatever's on your mind. Just pick up the phone and call 013 808 00035 (normal UK call rates apply). Or if you prefer, click here to leave a recording via your computer instead. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Rob Go is a co-founder and Partner at NextView Ventures, Next View are hands on, high conviction true seed stage investors. Prior to founding NextView, Rob was at Spark Capital and focused on early stage investments in consumer web and mobile. Before joining Spark Capital, Rob worked at Ebay as the Business Product Lead for “Finding”. In this role, he oversaw the launch of major products that enhanced the search, browse, and product discovery experience for tens of millions of users.  In Today’s Episode You Will Learn: 1.) How did Rob come to found NextView and what was his route into VC? 2.)  NextView are seed investors but what does that really mean today? Why has the entire seed stage moved further down the funnel? 3.) With regards to runway, there are two side son the table, those like Jeff Clavier and I who believe 36 months is optimal. What side of the table is Rob on? Longer or shorter runway? 4.) Why are smaller rounds optimal according to Rob? What do they allow you to do that you cannot do with larger rounds? What does the rise of pre-seed do for Rob as a true seed investor? 5.) Regadless of label competition between VC is now larger than ever, what does Rob make of the personalisation of VC and branding tactics used by Mark Suster etc? Items Mentioned In Today’s Episode:  Rob’s Fave Book: Ready Player One Rob’s Fave Blog: Wait But Why Rob’s Most Recent Investment: Dia & Co As always you can follow The Twenty Minute VC, Harry and Rob on Twitter here! If you would like to see a more colourful side to Harry with many a mojito session, you can follow him on Instagram here!   Attend one of the best conferences of the year, Sunrise, with speakers from the likes of Atlasssian, Canva and Planet Labs. Check it out here!   The Twenty Minute VC is brought to you by Leesa, the Warby Parker or TOMS shoes of the mattress industry. Lees have done away with the terrible mattress showroom buying experience by creating a luxury premium foam mattress that is order completely online and ships for free to your doorstep. The 10 inch mattress comes in all sizes and is engineered with 3 unique foam layers for a universal, adaptive feel, including 2 inches of memory foam and 2 inches of a really cool latex foam called Avena, design to keep you cool. All Leesa mattresses are 100% US or UK made and for every 10 mattresses they sell, they donate one to a shelter. Go to Leesa.com/VC and enter the promo code VC75 to get $75 off!  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JH-BbIJr1Co Subscribe on iTunes Have a question for the Podcast? Option1: Call the NINJA Hotline - (323) 834-9132 Option 2: Ask Jeff Today's CPA Reviewed Questions: Tressa - I've decided to get back to studying for the CPA exam after a 3 year hiatus. Given the exam changes and the upcoming exam changes, where do I start? I plan to use your study materials and am anxious to get started. What advice do you have for people coming back to testing after a long break and what section is the best to start with? Ru - I did a simulated practice exam and got 48%. I reworked all the problems and got 100%. Do I keep doing this until exam day? Snehal - I am studying Audit. I failed twice with scores of 66 and 70. I know most of the questions and answers from Wiley. What is the best way to study for Audit? Johnny - Do you think it's necessary to refrain from social media while studying for the CPA exam? I check Twitter a lot throughout day and follow several blogs. I know you've said it takes sacrifice to be able to get through studying. Would you say that sacrifice also applies to Twitter and the news and blogs? Roberto - I am taking BEC in a month for the third time. The first time, I studied half of my book and scored a 65. The second time, I watched all the videos got a 50. Do you have any suggestions for me? Will the NINJA system work for me? Rob - What is the most efficient and effective strategy for studying for the governmental and nonprofit accounting section for FAR? I'm going through this stuff and I'm hitting a brick wall because my mind is numb. Do you have an accelerated way of moving through this stuff? Jack - Is there anything I can do if my prior employer won't sign off on my experience? Aren't they obligated to do so? I keep sending them the form to fill out and 5 months later, still nothing. Caitlin - I have a complete video lecture course from 2010 that I never got around to using, but I’m going to get started with studying for the exam soon. Do you think I should buy an updated package, or can I get by with the 2010 materials if I add in NINJA and Wiley? Sylvia - I have recently taken the Auditing exam. I felt like the first testlet was straightforward, the second progressively harder, and the third much harder than the second. Is that a good sign? Do you know how MCQs are graded? Next Week's Giveaway x2: Ten Point Combo Lite   Free NINJA CPA Review Materials   Want to Study Less & Get Higher CPA Exam Scores? Can I send you $162.12 of Free CPA Review Materials that will help you... Study Less Avoid Common CPA Candidate Mistakes Get Higher Scores Spend More Time with Friends and Family Finally Pass and Get On With Your Life?