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Redwood is a state-of-the-art graphical interface that defines the look and feel of the new Oracle Cloud Redwood Applications. In this episode, hosts Lois Houston and Nikita Abraham, along with Senior Principal OCI Instructor Joe Greenwald, take a closer look at the intent behind the design and development aspects of the new Redwood experience. They also explore Redwood page templates and components. Survey: https://customersurveys.oracle.com/ords/surveys/t/oracle-university-gtm/survey?k=focus-group-2-link-share-5 Developing Redwood Applications with Visual Builder: https://mylearn.oracle.com/ou/learning-path/developing-redwood-applications-with-visual-builder/112791 Oracle University Learning Community: https://education.oracle.com/ou-community LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/showcase/oracle-university/ X (formerly Twitter): https://twitter.com/Oracle_Edu Special thanks to Arijit Ghosh, David Wright, and the OU Studio Team for helping us create this episode. --------------------------------------------------------- Episode Transcript: 00:00 Welcome to the Oracle University Podcast, the first stop on your cloud journey. During this series of informative podcasts, we'll bring you foundational training on the most popular Oracle technologies. Let's get started. 00:26 Nikita: Hello and welcome to the Oracle University Podcast! I'm Nikita Abraham, Team Lead: Editorial Services with Oracle University, and with me is Lois Houston, Director of Innovation Programs. Lois: Hi everyone! Thanks for joining us for this Best of 2024 series, where we're playing for you our four most popular episodes of the year. Nikita: Today's episode is #3 of 4 and is a throwback to another conversation with Joe Greenwald, our Senior Principal OCI Instructor. We asked Joe about Oracle's Redwood design system and how it helps us create stunning, world-class enterprise applications and user experiences. 01:04 Lois: Yeah, Redwood is the basis for all the new Oracle Cloud Applications being re-designed, developed, and delivered. Joe is the best person to ask about all of this because he's been working with our Oracle software development tools since the early 90s and is responsible for OU's Visual Builder Studio and Redwood course content. So, let's dive right in! Joe: Hi Lois. Hi Niki. I am excited to join you on this episode because with the release of 24A Fusion applications, we are encouraging all our customers to adopt the new Redwood design system and components, and take advantage of the world-class look and feel of the new Redwood user experience. Redwood represents a new approach and direction for us at Oracle, and we're excited to have our customers benefit from it. 01:49 Nikita: Joe, you've been working with Oracle user interface development tools and frameworks for a long time. How and why is Redwood different? Joe: I joined Oracle in 1992, and the first Oracle user interface I experienced was Oracle Forms. And that was the character mode. I came from a background of Smalltalk and its amazing, pioneering graphical user interface (GUI) design capabilities. I worked at Apple and I developed my own GUIs for a few years on PCs and Macs. So, Character Mode Forms, what we used to call DMV (Department of Motor Vehicles) screens, was a shock, to say the least. Since then, I've worked with almost every user interface and development platform Oracle has created: Character Mode Forms, GUI Forms, Power Objects, HyperCard on the Macintosh, that was pre-OS X by the way, Sedona, written in native C++ and ActiveX and OLE, which didn't make it to a product but appeared in other things later, ADF Faces, which uses Java to generate HTML pages, and APEX, which uses PL/SQL to generate HTML pages. And I've worked with and wrote training classes for Java Swing, an excellent GUI framework for event-driven desktop and enterprise applications, but it wasn't designed for the web. So, it's with pleasure that I introduce you to the Redwood design system, easily the best effort I've ever seen, from the look and feel of holistic user-goal-centered design philosophy and approach to the cutting-edge WYSIWYG design tools. 03:16 Lois: Joe, is Redwood just another set of styles, colors, and fonts, albeit very nice-looking ones? Joe: The Redwood platform is new for Oracle, and it represents a significant change, not just in the look and feel, colors, fonts, and styles, I mean that too, but it's also a fundamental change in how Oracle is creating, designing, and imagining user interfaces. As you may be aware, all Oracle Cloud Applications are being re-designed, re-engineered, and re-rebuilt from the ground up, with significant changes to both back-end and front-end architectures. The front end is being redesigned, re-developed, and re-created in pure HTML5, CSS3, and JavaScript using Visual Builder Studio and its design-time browser-based Integrated Development Environment. The back end is being re-architected, re-designed, and implemented in a modern microservice architecture for Oracle Cloud using Kubernetes and other modern technologies that improve performance and work better in the cloud than our current legacy architecture. The new Oracle Cloud Applications platform uses Redwood for its design system—its tools, its patterns, its components, and page templates. Redwood is a richer and more productive platform to create solutions while still being cost-effective for Oracle. It encourages a transformation of the fundamental user experience, emphasizing identifying, meeting, and understanding end users' goals and how the applications are used. 04:39 Nikita: Joe, do you think Oracle's user interface has been improved with Redwood? In what ways has the UI changed? Joe: Yes, absolutely. Redwood has changed a lot of things. When I joined Oracle back in the '90s, there was effectively no user interface division or UI team. Everybody just did their own thing. There was no user interface lab—and that was started in the mid-‘90s—and I was asked to give product usability feedback and participate in UI tests and experiments in those labs. I also helped test the products I was teaching at the time. I actually distinctly remember having to take a week to train users on Oracle's Designer CASE tool product just to prep the participants enough to perform usability testing. I can still hear the UI lab manager shaking her head and saying any product that requires a week of training to do usability testing has usability issues! And if you're like me and you've been around Oracle long enough, you know that Oracle's not always been known for its user interfaces and been known to release products that look like they were designed by two or more different companies. All that has changed with Redwood. With Redwood, there's a new internal design group that oversees the design choices of all development teams that develop products. This includes a design system review and an ongoing audit process to ensure that all the products being released, whether Fusion apps or something else, all look and feel similar so it looks like it's designed by a single company with a single thought in mind. Which it is. There's a deeper, consistent commitment in identifying user needs, understanding how the applications are being used, and how they meet those user needs through things like telemetry: gathering metrics from the actual components and the Redwood system itself to see how the applications are being used, what's working well, and what isn't. This telemetry is available to us here at Oracle, and we use it to fine tune the applications' usability and purpose. 06:29 Lois: That's really interesting, Joe. So, it's a fundamental change in the way we're doing things. What about the GUI components themselves? Are these more sophisticated than simple GUI components like buttons and text fields? Joe: The graphical components themselves are at a much higher level, more comprehensive, and work better together. And in Redwood, everything is a component. And I'm not just talking about things like input text fields and buttons, though it applies to these more fine-grained components as well. Leveraging Oracle's deep experience in building enterprise applications, we've incorporated that knowledge into creating page templates so that the structure and look and feel of the page is fixed based on our internal design standards. The developer has control over certain portions of it, but the overall look and feel of the page is controlled by Oracle. So there is consistency of look and feel within and across applications. These page templates come with predefined functionalities: headers, titles, properties, and variables to manipulate content and settings, slots for other components to hold like search fields, collections, contextual information, badges, and images, as well as primary and secondary actions, and variables for events and event handling through Visual Builder action chains, which handle the various actions and processing of the request on the page. And all these page templates and components are responsive, meaning they respond to the change in the size of the page and the orientation. So, when you move from a desktop to a handheld mobile device or a tablet, they respond appropriately and consistently to deliver a clean, easy-to-use interface and experience. 08:03 Nikita: You mentioned WYSIWYG design tools and their integration with Visual Builder Studio's integrated development environment. How does Redwood work with Visual Builder Studio? Joe: This is easily one of my most favorite aspects about Redwood and the integration with Visual Builder Studio Designer. The components and page templates are responsive at runtime as well as responsive at design time! In over 30 years of working with Oracle software development products, this is the first development system and integrated development environment I've seen Oracle produce where what you see is what you get at design time. Now, with products such as Designer and JDeveloper ADF Faces and even APEX—all those page-generation types of products—you have to generate the page, deploy it, and only then can you view the final page to see whether it meets the needs of your user interface. For example, with Designer, there were literally hundreds of configuration parameters that you could set to control how forms and reports looked when they were generated —down to how many buttons on a row or how many rows to a page, that sort of thing, all done in text mode. Then you'd generate and run the page to see what the result was and then go back and modify things until you got what you wanted. I remember hearing the product managers for Oracle ADF Faces being asked…well, a customer asked, “What happens if I put this component here and this component here? What will the page look like?” and they'd say, “I don't know. Render the page and let's see.” That's just crazy talk. With Redwood and its integration with Visual Builder Studio Designer, what you see on the page at design time is literally what you get. And if I make the page narrower or I even convert it to a mobile display while in the Designer itself, I immediately see what the page looks like in that new mode. Everything just moves accordingly, at design time. For example, when changing to a mobile UI, everything stacks up nicely; the components adjust to the page size and change right there in the design environment. Again, I can't emphasize enough the simple luxury of being able to see exactly what the user is going to see on my page and having the ability to change the resolution, orientation, and screen size, and it changes right there immediately in my design environment. 10:06 Lois: I'm intrigued by the idea of page templates that are managed by Oracle but still leave room for the developer to customize aspects of the look and feel and functionality. How does that work? Joe: Well, the page templates themselves represent the typical pages you would most likely use in an enterprise application. Things like a welcome page, a search page, and edit and create pages, and a couple of different ways to display summary information, including foldout pages, though this is not an exhaustive list of course. Not only do they provide a logical and complete starting point for the layout of the page itself, but they also include built-in functionality. These templates include functionality for buttons, primary and secondary actions, and areas for holding contextual information, badges, avatars, and images. And this is all built right into the page, and all of them use variables to describe the contents for the various parts, so the contents can change programmatically as the variables' contents change, if necessary. 11:04 Do you have an idea for a new course or learning opportunity? We'd love to hear it! Visit the Oracle University Learning Community and share your thoughts with us on the Idea Incubator. Your suggestion could find a place in future development projects. Visit mylearn.oracle.com to get started. 11:24 Nikita: Welcome back! So, Joe, let's say I'm a developer. How do I get started working with Redwood? Joe: One of the easiest ways to do it is to use Visual Builder Studio Designer and create a new visual application. If you're creating a standalone, bespoke custom application, you can choose a Redwood starter template, which will include all the Redwood components and page templates automatically. Or, if you're extending and customizing an Oracle Fusion application, Redwood is already included. Either way, when you create a new page, you have a choice of different page templates—welcome page templates, edit pages, search pages, etc. —and all you have to do is choose a page that you want and begin configuring it. And actually if you make a mistake, it's easy to switch page templates. All the components, page templates, and so on have documentation right there inside Visual Builder Studio Designer, and we do recommend that you read through the documentation first to get an understanding of what the use case for that template is and how to use it. And some components are more granular, like a collection container which holds a collection of rows of a list or a table and provides capabilities like toolbars and other actions that are already built and defined. You decide what actions you want and then use predefined event listeners that are triggered when an event occurs in the application—like a button being clicked or a row being selected—which kicks off a series of actions to be performed. 12:42 Lois: That sounds easy enough if you know what you're doing. Joe, what are some of the more common pages and what are they used for? Joe: Redwood page templates can be broken down into categories. There are overview templates like the welcome page template, which has a nice banner, colors, and illustrations that can be used for a welcoming page—like for entering a new application or a new logical section of the application. The dashboard landing page template displays key information values and their charts and graphs, which can come from Oracle Analytics, and automatically switches the display depending on which set of data is selected. The detail templates include a general overview, which presents read-only information related to a single record or resource. The item overview gives you a small panel to view summary information (for example, information on a customer) and in the main section, you can view details like all the orders for that customer. And you can even navigate through a set of customers, clicking arrows for next-previous navigation. And that's all built in. There's no programming required. The fold-out page template folds out horizontally to show you individual panels with more detail that can be displayed about the subject being retrieved as well as overflow and drill-down areas. And there's a collection detail template that will display a list with additional details about the selected item (for example, an order and its order line items). The smart search page does exactly what it says. It has a search component that you use to filter or search the data coming back from the REST data sources and then display the results in a list or a table. You define the filter yourself and apply it using different kinds of comparators, so you can look for strings that start with certain values or contain values, or numerical values that are equal to or less than, depending on what you're filtering for. And then there are the transactional templates, which are meant to make changes. This includes both the simple create and edit and advanced create and edit templates. The simple create and edit page template edits a single record or creates a single record. And the advanced page template works well if you're working with master-detail, parent-child type relationships. Let's say you want to view the parent and create children for it or even create a parent and the children at the same time. And there's a Gantt chart page for project management–type tracking and a guided process page for multiple-step processes and there's a data management page template specifically for viewing and editing data collections like Excel spreadsheets. 14:55 Nikita: You mentioned that there's a design system behind all this. How is this used, and how does the customer benefit from it? Joe: Redwood comprises both a design system and a development system. The design system has a series of steps that we follow here at Oracle and can suggest that you, our customers and partners, can follow as well. This includes understanding the problem, articulating the vision for the page and the application (what it should do), identifying the proper Redwood page templates to use, adding detail and refining the design and then using a number of different mechanisms, including PowerPoint or Figma design tools to specify the design for development, and then monitor engagement in the real world. These are the steps that we follow here at Oracle. The Redwood development process starts with learning how to use Redwood components and templates using the documentation and other content from redwood.oracle.com and Visual Builder Studio. Then it's about understanding the design created by the design team, learning more about components and templates for your application, specifically the ones you're going to use, how they work, and how they work together. Then developing your application using Visual Builder Studio Designer, and finally improving and refining your application. Now, right now, as I mentioned, telemetry is available to us here at Oracle so we can get a sense of the feedback on the pages of how components are being used and where time is being spent, and we use that to tune the designs and components being used. That telemetry data may be available to customers in the future. Now, when you go to redwood.oracle.com, you can access the Redwood pattern book that shows you in detail all the different page templates that are available: smart search page, data grid, welcome page, dashboard landing page, and so on, and you can select these and read more about them as well as the actual design specifications that were used to build the pages—defining what they do and what they respond to. They provide a lot of detailed information about the templates and components, how they work and how they're intended to be used. 16:50 Lois: That's a lot of great resources available. But what if I don't have access to Visual Builder Studio Designer? Can I still see how Redwood looks and behaves? Joe: Well, if you go to redwood.oracle.com, you can log in and work with the Redwood reference application, which is a live application working with live data. It was created to show off the various page templates and components, their look and feel and functionality from the Redwood design and development systems. This is an order management application, so you can do things like view filtered pending orders, create new orders, manage orders, and view information about customers and inventory. It uses the different page templates to show you how the application can perform. 17:29 Nikita: I assume there are common aspects to how these page templates are designed, built, and intended to be used. Is that a good way to begin understanding how to work with them? Becoming familiar with their common properties and functionality? Joe: Absolutely! Good point! All pages have titles, and most have primary and secondary actions that can be triggered through a variety of GUI events, like clicking a button or a link or selecting something in a list or a table. The transactional page templates include validation groups that validate whether the data is correct before it is submitted, as well as a message dialog that can pop up if there are unsaved changes and someone tries to leave the page. All the pages can use variables to display information or set properties and can easily display specific contextual information about records that have been retrieved, like adding the Order Number or Customer Name and Number to the page title or section headers. 18:18 Lois: If I were a developer, I'd be really excited to get started! So, let's say I'm a developer. What's the best way to begin learning about Redwood, Joe? Joe: A great place to start learning about the Redwood design and development system is at the redwood.oracle.com page I mentioned. We have many different pages that describe the philosophy and fundamental basis for Redwood, the ideas and intent behind it, and how we're using it here at Oracle. It also has a list of all the different page templates and components you can use and a link to the Redwood reference application where you can sign in and try it yourself. In addition, we at Oracle University offer a course called Design and Develop Redwood Applications, and in there, we have both lecture content as well as hands-on practices where you build a lightweight version of the Redwood reference application using data from the Fusion apps application, as well as the pages that I talked about: the welcome page, detail pages, transactional pages, and the dashboard landing page. And you'll see how those pages are designed and constructed while building them yourself. It's very important though to take one of the free Visual Builder Developer courses first: either Build Visual Applications Using Visual Builder Studio and/or Develop Fusion Applications Using Visual Builder Studio before you try to work through the practices in the Redwood course because it uses a lot of Visual Builder Designer technology. You'll get a lot more out of the Redwood practices if you understand the basics of Visual Builder Studio first. The Build Visual Applications Using Visual Builder Studio course is probably a better place to start unless you know for a fact you will be focusing on extending Oracle Fusion Applications using Visual Builder Studio. Now, a lot of the content is the same between the two courses as they share much of the same technology and architectures. 19:58 Lois: Ok, so Build Visual Applications Using Visual Builder Studio and Develop Fusion Applications Using Visual Builder Studio…all on mylearn.oracle.com and all free for anyone who wants to take them, right? Joe: Yes, exactly. And the free Redwood learning path leads to an Associate certification. While our courses are a great place to start in preparing for your certification exam, they are not, of course, by themselves sufficient to pass and you will want to study and be familiar with the redwood.oracle.com content as well. The learning path is free, but you do have to pay for the certification exam. Nikita: We hope you enjoyed that conversation. A quick reminder about the short survey we've created to gather your insights and suggestions for the podcast. It's really quick. Just click the link in the show notes to complete the survey. Thank you so much for helping us make the show better. Join us next week for another throwback episode. Until then, this is Nikita Abraham... Lois: And Lois Houston, signing off! 20:58 That's all for this episode of the Oracle University Podcast. If you enjoyed listening, please click Subscribe to get all the latest episodes. We'd also love it if you would take a moment to rate and review us on your podcast app. See you again on the next episode of the Oracle University Podcast.
The next generation of front-end user interfaces for Oracle Fusion Applications is being built using Visual Builder Studio and Oracle JavaScript Extension Toolkit. However, many of the terms associated with these tools can be confusing. In this episode, Lois Houston and Nikita Abraham are joined by Senior Principal OCI Instructor Joe Greenwald. Together, they take you through the different terminologies, how they relate to each other, and how they can be used to deliver the new Oracle Fusion Applications as well as stand-alone, bespoke visual web applications. Survey: https://customersurveys.oracle.com/ords/surveys/t/oracle-university-gtm/survey?k=focus-group-2-link-share-5 Develop Fusion Applications Using Visual Builder Studio: https://mylearn.oracle.com/ou/course/develop-fusion-applications-using-visual-builder-studio/138392/ Build Visual Applications Using Oracle Visual Builder Studio: https://mylearn.oracle.com/ou/course/build-visual-applications-using-oracle-visual-builder-studio/137749/ Oracle University Learning Community: https://education.oracle.com/ou-community LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/showcase/oracle-university/ X (formerly Twitter): https://twitter.com/Oracle_Edu Special thanks to Arijit Ghosh, David Wright, and the OU Studio Team for helping us create this episode. -------------------------------------------------------- Episode Transcript: 00:00 Welcome to the Oracle University Podcast, the first stop on your cloud journey. During this series of informative podcasts, we'll bring you foundational training on the most popular Oracle technologies. Let's get started. 00:26 Nikita: Hello and welcome to the Oracle University Podcast! I'm Nikita Abraham, Team Lead of Editorial Services with Oracle University, and with me is Lois Houston, Director of Innovation Programs. Lois: Hi there! If you've been following along with us, you'll know that we've had some really interesting seasons this year. We covered Autonomous Database, Artificial Intelligence, Visual Builder Studio and Redwood, OCI Container Engine for Kubernetes, and Oracle Database 23ai New Features. Nikita: And we've had some pretty awesome special guests. Do go back and check out those episodes if any of those topics interest you. 01:04 Lois: As we close out the year, we thought this would be a good time to revisit some of our best episodes. Over the next few weeks, you'll be able to listen to four of our most popular episodes of the year. Nikita: Right, this is the best of the best–according to you–our listeners. Lois: Today's episode is #1 of 4 and is a throwback to a discussion with Senior Principal OCI Instructor Joe Greenwald on Visual Builder Studio. Nikita: We asked Joe about Visual Builder Studio and Oracle JavaScript Extension Toolkit, also known as JET. Together, they form the basis of the technology for the next generation of front-end user interfaces for Oracle Fusion Applications, as well as many other Oracle applications, including most Oracle Cloud Infrastructure (OCI) interfaces. 01:48 Lois: We looked at the different terminologies and technologies, how they relate to each other, and how they deliver the new Oracle Fusion Applications and stand-alone, bespoke visual web applications. So, let's dive right in. Nikita: Joe, I'm somewhat thrown by the terminology around Visual Builder, Visual Studio, and JET. Can you help streamline that for us? Lois: Yeah, things that are named the same sometimes refer to different things, and sometimes things with a different name refer to the same thing. 02:18 Joe: Yeah, I know where you're coming from. So, let's start with Visual Builder Studio. It's abbreviated as VBS and can go by a number of different names. Some of the most well-known ones are Visual Builder Studio, VBS, Visual Builder, Visual Builder Stand-Alone, and Visual Builder Cloud Service. Clearly, this can be very confusing. For the purposes of these episodes as well as the training courses I create, I use certain definitions. 02:42 Lois: Can you take us through those? Joe: Absolutely, Lois. Visual Builder Studio refers to a product that comes free with an OCI account and allows you to manage your project-related assets. This includes the project itself, which is a container for all of its assets. You can assign teams to your projects, as well as secure the project and declare roles for the different team members. You manage GIT repositories with full graphical and command-line GIT support, define package, build, and deploy jobs, and create and run continuous integration/continuous deployment graphical and code-managed pipelines for your applications. These can be visual applications, created using the Visual Builder Integrated Development Environment, the IDE, or non-visual apps, such as Java microservices, docker builds, NPM apps, and things like that. And you can define environments, which determine where your build jobs can be deployed. You can also define issues, which allow you to identify, track, and manage things like bugs, defects, and enhancements. And these can be tracked in code review merge requests and build jobs, and be mapped to agile sprints and scrum boards. There's also support for wikis for team collaboration, code snippets, and the management of the repository and the project itself. So, VBS supports code reviews before code is merged into GIT branches for package, build, and deploy jobs using merge requests. 04:00 Nikita: OK, what exactly do you mean by that? Joe: Great. So, for example, you could have developers working in one GIT branch and when they're done, they would push their private code changes into that remote branch. Then, they'd submit a merge request and their changes would be reviewed. Once the changes are approved, their code branch is merged into the main branch and then automatically runs a CI/CD package (continuous integration/continuous deployment) package, build, and deploy job on the code. Also, the CI/CD package, build, and deploy jobs can run against any branches, not just the main branch. So Visual Builder Studio is intended for managing the project and all of its assets. 04:37 Lois: So Joe, what are the different tools used in developing web applications? Joe: Well, Visual Builder, Visual Builder Studio Designer, Visual Builder Designer, Visual Builder Design-Time, Visual Builder Cloud Service, Visual Builder Stand-Alone all kind of get lumped together. You can kinda see why. What I'm referring to here are the tools that we use to build a visual web application composed of HTML5, CSS3, JavaScript, and JSON (JavaScript Object Notation) for metadata. I call this Visual Builder Designer. This is an Integrated Development Environment, it's the “IDE” which runs in your browser. You use a combination of drag and drop, setting properties, and writing and modifying custom and generated code to develop your web applications. You work within a workspace, which is your own private copy of a remote Git branch. When you're ready to start development work, you open an existing workspace or create a new one based on a clone of the remote branch you want to work on. Typically, a new branch would be created for the development work or you would join an existing branch. 05:38 Nikita: What's a workspace, Joe? Is it like my personal laptop and drive? Joe: A workspace is your own private code area that stores any changes you make on the Oracle servers, so your code changes are never lost—even when working in a browser-based, network-based tool. A good analogy is, say I was working at home on my own machine. And I would make a copy of a remote GIT branch and then copy that code down to my local machine, make my code changes, do my testing, etc. and then commit my work—create a logical save point periodically—and then when I'm ready, I'd push that code up into the remote branch so it can be reviewed and merged with the main branch. My local machine is my workspace. However, since this code is hosted up by Oracle on our servers, and the code and the IDE are all running in your browser, the workspace is a simulation of a local work area on your own computer. So, the workspace is a hosted allocation of resources for you that's private. Other people can't see what's going on in your workspace. Your workspace has a clone of the remote branch that you're working with and the changes you make are isolated to your cloned code in your workspace. 06:41 Lois: Ok… the code is actually hosted on the server, so each time you make a change in the browser, the change is written back to the server? Is it possible that you might lose your edits if there's a networking interruption? Joe: I want to emphasize that while I started out not personally being a fan of web-based integrated development environments, I have been using these tools for over three years and in all that time, while I have lost a connection at times—networks are still subject to interruptions—I've never lost any changes that I've made. Ever. 07:11 Nikita: Is there a way to save where you are in your work so that you could go back to it later if you need to? Joe: Yes, Niki, you're asking about commits and savepoints, like in a Git repository or a Git branch. When you reach a logical stopping or development point in your work, you would create a commit or a savepoint. And when you're ready, you would push that committed code in your workspace up to the remote branch where it can be reviewed and then eventually merged, usually with the main Git branch, and then continuous integration/continuous package and deployment build jobs are run. Now, I'm only giving you a high-level overview, but we cover all this and much more in detail with hands-on practices in our Visual Builder developer courses. Right now, I'm just trying to give you a sense of how these different tools are used. 07:52 Lois: Yeah, that makes sense, Joe. It's a lot to cover in a short amount of time. Now, we've discussed the Visual Builder Designer IDE and workspace. But can you tell us more about Visual Builder Cloud Service and stand-alone environments? What are they used for? What features do they provide? Are they the same or different things? Joe: Visual Builder Cloud Service or Visual Builder Stand-Alone, as it's sometimes called, is a service that Oracle hosts on its servers. It provides hosting for the deployed web application source code as well as database tables for business objects that we build and maintain to store your customer data. This data can come from XLS or CSV files, or even your own Oracle database customer table data. A custom REST proxy makes calls to external third-party REST services on your behalf and supports several popular authentication mechanisms. There is also integration with the Identity Cloud Service (IDCS) to manage users and their access to your web apps. Visual Builder Cloud Service is a for-fee product. You pay licensing fees for how much you use because it's a hosted service. Visual Builder Studio, the project asset management aspect I discussed earlier, is free with a standard OCI license. Now, keep in mind these are separate from something like Visual Builder Design Time and the service that's running in Fusion application environments. What I'm talking about now is creating stand-alone, bespoke, custom visual applications. These are applications that are built using industry-standard HTML5, CSS3, JavaScript, and JSON for metadata and are hosted on the Oracle servers. 09:30 Are you looking for practical use cases to help you plan and apply configurations that solve real-world challenges? With the new Applied Learning courses for Cloud Applications, you'll be able to practically apply the concepts learned in our implementation courses and work through case studies featuring key decisions and configurations encountered during a typical Oracle Cloud Applications implementation. Applied learning scenarios are currently available for General Ledger, Payables, Receivables, Accounting Hub, Global Human Resources, Talent Management, Inventory, and Procurement, with many more to come! Visit mylearn.oracle.com to get started. 10:12 Nikita: Welcome back! Joe, you said Visual Builder Cloud Service or Stand-Alone is a for-fee service. Is there a way I can learn about using Visual Builder Designer to build bespoke visual applications without a fee? Joe: Yes. Actually, we've added an option where you can run the Visual Builder Designer and learn how to create web apps without using the app hosting or the business object database that stores your customer data or the REST proxy for authentication or the Identity Cloud Service. So you don't get those features, but you can still learn the fundamentals of developing with Visual Builder Designer. You can call third-party APIs, you can download the source, and run it locally, for example, in a Tomcat server. This is a great and free way to learn how to develop with the Visual Builder Designer. 10:55 Lois: Joe, I want to know more about the kinds of apps you can build in VB Designer and the capabilities that VB Cloud Service provides. Joe: Visual Builder Designer allows you to build custom, bespoke web applications made of interactive webpages; flows of pages for navigation; events that respond when things happen in the app, for example, GUI events like a button is clicked or values are entered into a text field; variables to store the state of the application and the ability to make REST calls, all from your browser. These applications have full access to the Oracle Fusion Applications APIs, given that you have the right security permissions and credentials of course. They can access your customer business data as business objects in our internally hosted database tables or your own customer database tables. They can access third-party APIs, and all these different data sources can appear in the same visual application, on the same page, at the same time. They use the Identity Cloud Service to identify which users can log in and authenticate against the application. And they all use the new Redwood graphical user interface components and page templates, so they have the same look and feel of all Oracle applications. 12:02 Nikita: But what if you're building or extending Oracle Fusion Applications? Don't things change a little bit? Joe: Good point, Niki. Yes. While you still work within Visual Builder Studio, that doesn't change, VBS maintains your project and all your project-related assets, that is still the same. However, in this case, there is no separate hosted Visual Builder Cloud Service or Stand-Alone instance. In this case, Visual Builder is hosted inside of Fusion apps itself as part of the installation. I won't go into the details of how the architecture works, but the Visual Builder instance that you're running your code against is part of Fusion applications and is included in the architecture as well as the billing. All your code changes are maintained and stored within a single container called an extension. And this extension is a Git repository that is created for you, or you can create it yourself, depending on how you choose to work within Visual Builder Studio. You create an extension to hold the source code changes that provide a customization or configuration. This means making a change to an existing page or a set of pages or even adding new pages and flows to your Oracle Fusion Applications. You use Visual Builder Studio and Visual Builder Designer in a similar way as to how you would use them for bespoke stand-alone visual applications. 13:12 Lois: I'm trying to envision how this workflow is used. How is it different from bespoke VB app development? Or is it different at all? Joe: So, recall that the Visual Builder Designer is effectively the Integrated Development Environment, the IDE, where you make your code changes by working with both the raw HTML5, CSS3, and JavaScript code, if need be, or the Page Designer for drag and drop, and setting properties and then Live mode to test your work. You use a version of VB Designer to view and modify your customizations, and the code is stored in a Git repository called an extension. So, in that sense, the work of developing pages and flows and such is the same. You still start by creating or, more typically, joining a project and then either create a new extension from scratch or base it on an existing application, or go directly to the page that you want to edit and, on that page, select from your profile menu to edit in Visual Builder Studio. Now, this is a different lifecycle path from bespoke visual applications. With them, you're not extending an app or modifying individual pages in the same way. You get a choice of which project you want to add your extension to when you're working with Fusion apps and potentially which repository to store your customizations, unless one already exists and then it's assigned automatically to hold your code changes. So you make your changes and edits to the portions of the application that have been opened for extensibility by the development team. This is another difference. Once you make your code changes, the workflow is pretty much the same as for a bespoke visual application: do your development work, commit your changes, push your changes to the remote branch. And then typically, your code is reviewed and if the code passes and is approved, it's merged with the main branch. Then, the package and deploy jobs run to deploy the main code to the production environment or whatever environment you're targeting. And once the package and deploy jobs complete, the code base is updated and users who log in see the changes that you've made. 15:03 Nikita: You mentioned creating apps that combine data from Fusion cloud, applications, customer data, and third-party APIs into one page. Why is it necessary? Why can't you just do all that in one Fusion Applications extension? Joe: When you create extensions, you are working within the Oracle Fusion Applications ecosystem, that's what they actually call it, which includes a defined a set of users who have been predefined and are, therefore, known to Fusion Applications. So, if you're a user and you're not part of that Fusion Apps ecosystem, you can't access the pages. Period. That's how Fusion Apps works to maintain its security and integrity. Secondly, you're working pretty much solely with the Fusion Applications APIs data sources coming directly from Fusion Applications, which are also available to you when you're creating bespoke visual apps. When you're working with Fusion Applications in Visual Builder, you don't have access to these business objects that give you access to your own customer database data through Visual Builder-generated REST APIs. Business objects are available only to bespoke visual applications in the hosted VB Cloud Service instance. So, your data sources are restricted to the Oracle Fusion Applications APIs and some third-party APIs that work within a narrow set of authentication mechanisms currently, although there are plans to expand this in the future. A mashup app that allows you now to access all these data sources while creating apps that leverage the Redwood Component System, so they look and work like Fusion Apps. They're a highly popular option for our partners and customers. 16:28 Lois: So, to review, we have two different approaches. You can create a visual application using the for-fee, hosted Visual Builder Cloud Service/Stand-Alone or the one that comes with Oracle Integration Cloud, or you can use the extension architecture for Fusion applications, where you use the designer and create your extensions, and the code is delivered and deployed to Fusion applications code. You haven't talked about JET yet though, Joe. What is that? Joe: So, JET is an abbreviation. It stands for Oracle JavaScript Extension Toolkit and JET is the underlying technology that makes Visual Builder, visual applications, and Visual Builder Extensions for Fusion Applications possible. Oracle JavaScript Extension Toolkit provides a module-based, open-source toolkit that leverages modern JavaScript, TypeScript, CSS3, and HTML5 to deliver web applications. It's targeted at JavaScript developers working on client-side applications. It is not for backend development. It's a collection of popular, powerful JavaScript libraries and a set of Oracle-contributed JavaScript libraries that make it very simple, easy, and efficient to build front-end applications that can consume and interact with Oracle products and services, especially Oracle Cloud services, but of course it can work with any type of third-party API. 17:44 Nikita: How are JET applications architected, Joe, and how does that relate to Visual Builder pages and flows? Joe: The architecture of JET applications is what's called a single page architecture. We've all seen these. These are where you have a single webpage—think of your index page that provides the header and footer for your webpage—and then the middle portion or the middle content of the page, represented by modules, allow you to navigate from one page or module to another. It also provides the data mapping so that the data elements in the variables and the state of the application, as well as the graphical user interface elements that provide the fields and functionality for the interface for the application, these are all maintained on the client side. If you're working in pure JET, then you work with these modules at the raw JavaScript code level. And there are a lot of JavaScript developers who want to work like this and create their custom applications from the code up, so to speak. However, it also provides the basis for Visual Builder visual applications and Fusion Apps visual extensions in Visual Builder. 18:41 Lois: How does JET support VB Apps? You didn't talk much about having to write a bunch of JavaScript and HTML5, so I got the impression that this is all done for you by VB Designer? Joe: Visual Builder applications are composed of HTML5, CSS3, and JavaScript code that is usually generated by the developer when she drags and drops components on to the page designer canvas or sets properties or creates action chains to respond to events. But there's also a lot of JavaScript object notation (JSON) metadata created at the time that describes the pages, the flows, the navigation, the REST services, the variables, their data types, and other assets needed for the app to function. This JSON metadata is translated at runtime using a large JavaScript extension toolkit library called the Visual Builder Runtime that runs in the browser and real time translates the metadata and other assets in the Visual Builder source code into JET code and assets, which are actually executed at runtime. And it's very quick, very fast, very efficient, and provides a layer of abstraction between the raw JET code and the Visual Builder architecture of pages, flows, action chains for executing code and events to handle things that occur in the user interface, including saving the state in variables that are mapped to GUI components. For example, if you have an Input text component, you need to have a variable to store the value that was entered into that Input text component between page refreshes. The data can move from the Input text component to the variable, and from the variable to that Input text component if it's changed programmatically, for example. So, JET manages binding these data values to variables and the UI components on the page. So, a change to a variable value or a change to the contents of the component causes the others to change automatically. Now, this is only a small part of what JET and the frameworks and libraries it uses do for the applications. JET also provides more complex GUI components like lists and tables, and selection lists, and check boxes, and all the sorts of things you would expect in a modern GUI application. 20:37 Nikita: You mentioned a layer of abstraction between Visual Builder Studio Designer and JET. What's the benefit of working in Visual Builder Designer versus JET itself? Joe: The benefit of Visual Builder is that you work at a higher level of abstraction than having to get down into the more detailed levels of deep JavaScript code, working with modules, data mappings, HTML code, single page architecture navigation, and the related functionalities. You can work at a higher level, a graphical level, where you can drag and drop things onto a design canvas and set properties. The VB architecture insulates you from the more technical bits of JET. Now, this frees the developer to concentrate more on application and page design, implementing logic and business rules, and creating a pleasing workflow and look and feel for the user. This keeps them from having to get caught up in the details of getting this working at the code level. Now if needed, you can write custom JavaScript, HTML5, and CSS3 code, though much less than in a JET app, and all that is part of the VB application source, which becomes part of the code used by JET to execute the application itself. And yet it all works seamlessly together. 21:38 Lois: Joe, I know we have courses in JavaScript, HTML, and CSS. But does a developer getting ready to work in Visual Builder Designer have to go take those courses first or can they start working in VB Designer right away? Joe: Yeah, that question does often comes up: Do I need to learn JET to work with Visual Builder? No, you don't. That's all taken care for you in the products themselves. I don't really think it helps that much to learn JET if you are going to be a VB developer. In some ways, it could even be a bit distracting since some of things you learn to do in JET, you would have to unlearn or not do so much because of what VB does it for you. The things you would have to do manually in code in JET are done for you. This is why we call VB a low code development tool. I mean, you certainly can if you want to, but I would spend more time learning about the different GUI components, page templates, the Visual Builder architecture — events, action chains, and the data provider variables and types. Now, I know JET myself. I started with that before learning Visual Builder, but I use very little of my JET knowledge as a VB developer. Visual Builder Designer provides a nice, abstracted, clean layer of modern visual development on top of JET, while leveraging the power and flexibility of JET and keeping the lower-level details out of my way. 22:49 Nikita: Joe, where can I go to get started with Visual Builder? Joe: Well, for more information, I recommend you take a look at our Develop Fusion Applications course if you're working with Fusion Applications and Visual Builder Studio. The other course is Develop Visual Applications with Visual Builder Studio and that's if you're creating stand-alone bespoke applications. Both these courses are free. We also have a comprehensive course that covers JavaScript, HTML5, and CSS3, and while it's not required that you take that to be successful, it can be helpful down the road. I would also say that some basic knowledge of HTML5, CSS3, and JavaScript will certainly support you and serve you well when working with Visual Builder. You learn more as you go along and you find that you need to create more sophisticated applications. I would also mention that a lot of the look and feel of the applications in Visual Builder visual applications and Fusion apps extensions and customizations come through JET components, JET styles, and JET variables, and CSS variables, so that's something that you would want to pursue at some point. There's a JET cookbook out there. You can search for Oracle JET and look for the JET cookbook and that's a good introduction to all of that. 23:50 Nikita: We hope you enjoyed that conversation. To learn about some of the courses Joe mentioned, visit mylearn.oracle.com to get started. Lois: Before we wrap up, we've got a favor to ask. We've created a short survey to capture your thoughts on the podcast. It'll only take a few minutes of your time. Just click the link in the show notes and share your feedback. We want to make sure we're delivering the best experience possible so don't hesitate to let us know what's on your mind! Thanks for your support. Join us next week for another throwback episode. Until then, this is Lois Houston… Nikita: And Nikita Abraham, signing off! 24:30 That's all for this episode of the Oracle University Podcast. If you enjoyed listening, please click Subscribe to get all the latest episodes. We'd also love it if you would take a moment to rate and review us on your podcast app. See you again on the next episode of the Oracle University Podcast.
Computer Aided Software Engineering (CASE) tools, which helped make the analysis, design, and implementation phases of software development better, faster, and cheaper, fell out of favor in the mid-'90s. Yet much of what they have to offer remains and is in active use within different Oracle tools. Listen to Lois Houston and Nikita Abraham interview Senior Principal OCI Instructor Joe Greenwald about the origins of CASE tools and model-based development, as well as how they evolved into their current forms. Develop Fusion Applications Using Visual Builder Studio: https://mylearn.oracle.com/ou/course/develop-fusion-applications-using-visual-builder-studio/122614/ Build Visual Applications Using Visual Builder Studio: https://mylearn.oracle.com/ou/course/build-visual-applications-using-oracle-visual-builder-studio/110035/ Oracle University Learning Community: https://education.oracle.com/ou-community LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/showcase/oracle-university/ X (formerly Twitter): https://twitter.com/Oracle_Edu Special thanks to Arijit Ghosh, David Wright, and the OU Studio Team for helping us create this episode. --------------------------------------------------------- Episode Transcript: 00:00 Welcome to the Oracle University Podcast, the first stop on your cloud journey. During this series of informative podcasts, we'll bring you foundational training on the most popular Oracle technologies. Let's get started. 00:26 Nikita: Hello and welcome to the Oracle University Podcast! I'm Nikita Abraham, Principal Technical Editor with Oracle University, and joining me is Lois Houston, Director of Innovation Programs. Lois: Hi there! In our last episode, we looked at Oracle's Redwood design system and how it helps create world-class apps and user experiences. Today, Joe Greenwald, our Senior Principal OCI Instructor, is back on our podcast. We're going to focus on where model-based development tools came from: their start as CASE tools, how they morphed into today's model-based development tools, and how these tools are currently used in Oracle software development to make developers' lives better. 01:08 Nikita: That's right. It's funny how things that fell out of favor years ago come back and are used to support our app development efforts today. Hi Joe! Joe: Haha! Hi Niki. Hi Lois. 01:18 Lois: Joe, how did you get started with CASE tools? Joe: I was first introduced to computer-aided software engineering tools, called CASE tools, in the late 1980s when I began working with them at Arthur Young consulting and then Knowledgeware corporation in Atlanta, helping customers improve and even automate their software development efforts using structured analysis and design techniques, which were popular and in high use at that time. But it was a pain to have to draw diagrams by hand, redraw them as specifications changed, and then try to maintain them to represent the changes in understanding what we were getting from our analysis and design phase work. CASE tools were used to help us draw the pictures as well as enforce rules and provide a repository so we could share what we were creating with other developers. I was immediately attracted to the idea of using diagrams and graphical images to represent requirements for computer systems. 02:08 Lois: Yeah, you're like me. You're a visual person. Joe: Yes, exactly. So, the idea that I could draw a picture and a computer could turn that into executable code was fascinating to me. Pictures helped us understand what the analysts told us the users wanted, and helped us communicate amongst the teams, and they also helped us validate our understanding with our users. This was a critical aspect because there was a fundamental cognitive disconnect between what the users told the analysts they needed, what the analysts told us the users needed, and what we understood was needed, and what the user actually wanted. There's a famous cartoon, you can probably find this on the web, that shows what the users wanted, what was delivered, and then all the iterations that the different teams go through trying to represent the simple original request. I started using entity relationship diagrams, data flow diagrams, and structure charts to support the structured analysis, design, and information engineering methods that we were using at the time for our clients. Used correctly, these were powerful tools that resulted in higher quality systems because it forced us to answer questions earlier on and not wait until later in the project life cycle, when it's more expensive and difficult to make changes. 03:16 Nikita: So, the idea was to try to get it wrong sooner. Joe: That's right, Niki. We wanted to get our analysis and designs in front of the customer as soon as possible to find out what was wrong with our models and then change the code as early in the life cycle as possible where it was both easier and, more importantly, cheaper to make changes before solidifying it in code. Of course, the key words here are “used correctly,” right? I saw the tools misused many times by those who weren't trained properly or, more typically, by those whose software development methodology, if there even was one, didn't use the tools properly—and of course the tools took the blame. CASE tools at the time held a lot of promise, but one could say vendors were overpromising and under delivering, although I did have a number of clients who were successful with them and could get useful support for their software development life cycle from the use of the tools. Since then, I've been very interested in using tools to make it easier for us to build software. 04:09 Nikita: So, let me ask you Joe, what is your definition of a CASE tool? Joe: I'm glad you asked, Niki, because I think many people have many different definitions. I'm precise about it, and maybe even a bit pedantic with the definition. The definition I use for a CASE tool comprises four things. One, it uses graphics, graphical symbols, and diagrams to represent requirements and business rules for the application. Two, there is a repository, either private, or shared, or both, of models, definitions, objects, requirements, rules, diagrams, and other assets that can be shared, reused, and almost more importantly, tracked. Three, there's a rule-base that prevents you from drawing things that can't be implemented. For example, Visio was widely regarded as a CASE tool, but it really wasn't because it had no rules behind it. You could wire together anything you wanted, but that didn't mean it could be built. Fourth, it generates useful code, and it should do two-way engineering, where code, typically code changed outside the model, can be reverse engineered back into the model and apply updates to the model, and to keep the model and the source code in synchronization. 05:13 Joe: I came up with a good slogan for CASE tools years ago: a good CASE tool should automate the tedious, manual portions of software development. I'd add that one also needs to be smarter than the tools they're using. Which reminds me, interestingly enough, of clients who would pick up CASE tools, thinking that they would make their software development life cycle shorter. But if they weren't already building models for analysis or design, then automating the building of things that they weren't building already was not going to save them time and effort. And some people adopted CASE tools because they were told to or worse, forced to, or they read an article on an airplane, or had a Eureka moment, and they would try to get their entire software development staff to use this new tool, overnight literally, in some cases. Absolutely sheer madness! Tools like this need to be brought into the enterprise in a slow, measured fashion with a pilot project and build upon small successes until people start demanding to use the tools in their own projects once they see the value. And each group, each team would use the CASE tool differently and to a different degree. One size most definitely does not fit all and identifying what the teams' needs are and how the tool can automate and support those needs is an important aspect of adopting a CASE tool. It's funny, almost everyone would agree there's value in creating models and, eventually, generating code from them to get better systems and it should be faster and cheaper, etc. But CASE tools never really penetrated the market more than maybe about 18 to 25%, tops. 06:39 Lois: Huh, why? Why do you think CASE tools were not widely accepted and used? Joe: Well, I don't think it was an issue with the tools so much as it was with a company's software development life cycle, and the culture and politics in the company. And I imagine you're shocked to hear that. Ideally, switching to or adopting automated tools like CASE tools would reduce development time and costs, and improve quality. So it should increase reusability too. But increasing the reusability of code elements and software assets is difficult and requires discipline, commitment, and investment. Also, there can be a significant amount of training required to teach developers, analysts, project managers, and senior managers how to deal with these different forms of life cycles and artifacts: how they get created, how to manage them, and how to use them. When you have project managers or senior managers asking where's the code and you try telling them, “Well, it's gonna take a little while. We're building models and will press the button to generate the code.” That's tough. And that's also another myth. It was never a matter of build all the models, press the button, generate all the code, and be done. It's a very iterative process. 07:40 Joe: I've also found that developers find it very psychologically reinforcing to type code into the keyboard, see it appear on the screen, see it execute, and models were not quite as satisfying in the same way. There was kind of a disconnect. And are still not today. Coders like to code. So using CASE tools and the discipline that went along with them often created issues for customers because it could shine a bright light on the, well let's say, less positive aspects of their existing software development process. And what was seen often wasn't pretty. I had several clients who stopped using CASE tools because it made their poor development process highly visible and harder to ignore. It was actually easier for them to abandon the CASE tools and the benefits of CASE tools than to change their internal processes and culture. CASE tools require discipline, planning, preparation, and thoughtful approaches, and some places just couldn't or wouldn't do that. Now, for those who did have discipline and good software development practices, CASE tools helped them quite a bit—by creating documentation and automating the niggly little manual tasks they were spending a lot of time on. 08:43 Nikita: You've mentioned in the past that CASE tools are still around today, but we don't call them that. Have they morphed into something else? And if so, what? Joe: Ah, so the term Computer Aided Software Engineering morphed into something more acceptable in the ‘90s as vendors overpromised and under-delivered, because many people still saw value and do today see value in creating models to help with understanding, and even automating some aspects of software code development. The term model-based development arose with the idea that you could build small models of what you want to develop and then use that to guide and help with manual code development. And frankly just not using the word CASE was a benefit. “Oh we're not doing CASE tools, but we'll still build pictures and do stuff.” So, it could be automated and generate useful code as well as documentation. And this was both easy to use and easier to manage, and I think the industry and the tools themselves were maturing. 09:35 Joe: So, model-based development took off and the idea of building a model to represent your understanding of the system became popular. And it was funny because people were saying that these were not CASE tools, this was something different, oh for sure, when of course it was pretty much the same thing: rule-based graphical modeling with a repository that created and read code—just named differently. And as I go through this, it reminds me of an interesting anecdote that's given about US President Abraham Lincoln. He once asked someone, “If you call a dog's tail a leg, how many legs does a dog have?” Now, while you're thinking about that, I'll go ahead and give you the correct answer. It's four. You can call a dog's tail anything you want, but it still has four legs. You can call your tools whatever you want, but you still have the idea of building graphical representations of requirements based on rules, and generating code and engineering in both directions. 10:29 Did you know that Oracle University offers free courses on Oracle Cloud Infrastructure? You'll find training on everything from cloud computing, database, and security to artificial intelligence and machine learning, all free to subscribers. So, what are you waiting for? Pick a topic, leverage the Oracle University Learning Community to ask questions, and then sit for your certification. Visit mylearn.oracle.com to get started. 10:58 Nikita: Welcome back! Joe, how did you come to Oracle and its CASE tools? Joe: I joined Oracle in 1992 teaching the Oracle CASE tool Designer. It was focused on structured analysis and design, and could generate database Data Definition Language (DDL) for creating databases. And it was quite good at it and could reverse engineer databases as well. And it could generate Oracle Forms and Reports – character mode at first, and then GUI. But it was in the early days of the tool and there was definitely room for improvement, or as we would say opportunities for enhancement, and it could be hard to learn and work with. It didn't do round-trip engineering of reading Oracle Forms code and updating the Designer models, though some of that came later. So now you had an issue where you could generate an application as a starting point, but then you had to go in and modify the code, and the code would get updated, but the models wouldn't get updated and so little by little they'd go out of sync with the code, and it just became a big mess. But a lot of people saw that you could develop parts of the application and data definition in models and save time, and that led to what we call model-based development, where we use models for some aspects but not all. We use models where it makes sense and hand code where we need to code. 12:04 Lois: Right, so the two can coexist. Joe, how have model-based development tools been used at Oracle? Are they still in use? Joe: Absolutely! And I'll start with my favorite CASE tool at Oracle, uhm excuse me, model-based development tool. Oracle SOA Suite is my idea of a what a model-based development tool should be. We create graphical diagrams to represent the flow of messages and message processing in web services—both SOAP and REST interfaces—with logic handled by other diagrammers and models. We have models for logic, human interaction, and rules processing. All this is captured in XML metadata and displayed as nice, colored diagrams that are converted to source code once deployed to the server. The reason I like it so much is Oracle SOA Suite addressed a fundamental problem and weakness in using modeling tools that generated code. It doesn't let the developer touch the generated code. I worked with many different CASE tools over the years, and they all suffered from a fundamental flaw. Analysts and developers would create the models, generate the code, eventually put it into production, and then, if there was a bug in the code, the developer would fix the code rather than change the model. For example, if a bug was found at 10:30 at night, people would get dragged out of bed to come down and fix things. What they should have done is update the model and then generate the new code. But late at night or in a crunch, who's going to do that, right? They would fix the code and say they'd go back and update the model tomorrow. But as we know, tomorrow never comes, and so little by little, the model goes out of synchronization with the actual source code, and eventually people just stopped doing models. 13:33 Joe: And this just happened more and more until the use of CASE tools started diminishing—why would I build a model and have to maintain it to just maintain the code? Why do two separate things? Time is too valuable. So, the problem of creating models and generating code, and then maintaining the code and not the model was a problem in the industry. And I think it certainly hurt the adoption and progress of CASE tool adoption. This is one of the reasons why Oracle SOA Suite is my favorite CASE tool…because you never have access to the actual generated code. You are forced to change the model to get the new code deployed. Period. Problem solved. Well, SOA Suite does allow post- deployment changes, of course, and that can introduce consistency issues and while they're easier to handle, we still have them! So even there, there's an issue. 14:15 Nikita: How and where are modeling tools used in current Oracle software development applications? Joe: While the use of CASE tools and even the name CASE fell out of favor in the early to mid-90s, the idea of using graphical diagrams to capture requirements and generate useful code does live on through to today. If you know what to look for, you can see elements of model-based design throughout all the Oracle tools. Oracle tools successfully use diagrams, rules, and code generation, but only in certain areas where it clearly makes sense and in well-defined boundaries. Let's start with the software development environment that I work with most often, which is Visual Builder Studio. Its design environment uses a modeling tool to model relationships between Business Objects, which is customer data that can have parent-child relationships, and represent and store customer data in tables. It uses a form of entity relationship diagram with cardinality – meaning how many of these are related to how many of those – to model parent-child relationships, including processing requirements like deleting children if a parent is deleted. The Business Object diagrammer displays your business objects and their relationships, and even lets you create new relationships, modify the business objects, and even create new business objects. You can do all your work in the diagram and the correct code is generated. And you can display the diagram for the code that you created by hand. And the two stay in sync. There's also a diagramming tool to design the page and page flow navigation between the pages in the web application itself. You can work in code or you can work in the diagram (either one or both), and both are updated at the same time. Visual Builder Studio uses a lot of two-way design and engineering. 15:48 Joe: Visual Builder Studio Page Designer allows you to work in code if you want to write HTML, JavaScript, and JSON code, or work in Design mode and drag and drop components onto the page designer canvas, set properties, and both update each other. It's very well done. Very well integrated. Now, oddly enough, even though I am a model-based developer, I find I do most of my work in Visual Builder Studio Designer in the text-based interface because it's so easy to use. I use the diagrammers to document and share my work, and communicate with other team members and customers. While I think it's not being used quite so much anymore, Oracle's JDeveloper and application development framework, ADF, includes built-in tools for doing Unified Modeling Language (UML) modeling. You can create object-oriented class models, generate Java code, reverse engineer Java code, and it updates the model for you. You can also generate the code for mapping Java objects to relational tables. And this has been the heart of data access for ADF Business Components (ADFBC), which is the data layer of Oracle Fusion Apps, for 20 years, although that is being replaced these days. 16:51 Lois: So, these are application development tools for crafting web applications. But do we have any tools like this for the database? Joe: Yes, Lois. We do. Another Oracle tool that uses model-based development functionality is the OCI automated database actions. Here you can define tables, columns, and keys. You can also REST-enable your tables, procedures, and functions. Oracle SQL Developer for the web is included with OCI or Oracle SQL Developer on the desktop has a robust and comprehensive data modeler that allows you to do full blown entity relationship diagramming and generate code that can be implemented through execution in the database. Now that's actually the desktop version that has the full-blown diagrammer but you also have some of that in the OCI database actions as well. But the desktop version goes further than that. You can reverse engineer the existing database, generate models from it, modify the models, and then generate the delta, the difference code, to allow you to update an existing database structure based on the change in the model. It is very powerful and highly sophisticated, and I do strongly recommend looking at it. And Oracle's APEX (Application Express) has SQL workshop, where you can see a graphic representation of the tables and the relationships between the tables, and even build SQL statements graphically. 18:05 Nikita: It's time for us to wrap up today but I think it's safe to say that model-based development tools are still with us. Any final thoughts, Joe? Joe: Well, actually today I wonder why more people don't model. I've been on multiple projects and worked with multiple clients where there's no graphical modeling whatsoever—not even a diagram of the database design and the relationships between tables and foreign keys. And I just don't understand that. One thing I don't see very much in current CASE or model-based tools is enabling impact analysis. This is another thing I don't see a lot. I've learned, in many years of working with these tools, to appreciate performing impact analysis. Meaning if I make a change to this thing here, how many other places are going to be impacted? How many other changes am I going to have to make? Something like Visual Builder Studio Designer is very good at this. If you make a change to the spelling of a variable let's say in one place, it'll change everywhere that it is referenced and used. And you can do a Find in files to find every place something is used, but it's still not quite going the full hundred percent and allowing me to do a cross-application impact analysis. If I want to change this one thing here, how many other things will be impacted across applications? But it's a start. And I will say in talking to the Visual Builder Studio Architect, he understands the value of impact analysis. We'll see where the tool goes in the future. And this is not a commitment of future direction, of course. It would appear the next step is using AI to listen to our needs and generate the necessary code from it, maybe potentially bypassing models entirely or creating models as a by-product to aid in communication and understanding. We know a picture's worth a 1000 words and it's as true today as it's ever been, and I don't see that going away anytime soon. 19:41 Lois: Thanks a lot, Joe! It's been so nice to hear about your journey and learn about the history of CASE tools, where they started and where they are now. Joe: Thanks Lois and Niki. Nikita: Join us next week for our final episode of this series on building the next generation of Oracle Cloud Apps with Visual Builder Studio. Until then, this is Nikita Abraham… Lois: And Lois Houston, signing off! 20:03 That's all for this episode of the Oracle University Podcast. If you enjoyed listening, please click Subscribe to get all the latest episodes. We'd also love it if you would take a moment to rate and review us on your podcast app. See you again on the next episode of the Oracle University Podcast.
Redwood is a state-of-the-art graphical interface that defines the look and feel of the new Oracle Cloud Redwood Applications. In this episode, hosts Lois Houston and Nikita Abraham, along with Senior Principal OCI Instructor Joe Greenwald, take a closer look at the intent behind the design and development aspects of the new Redwood experience. They also explore Redwood page templates and components. Developing Redwood Applications with Visual Builder: https://mylearn.oracle.com/ou/learning-path/developing-redwood-applications-with-visual-builder/112791 Oracle University Learning Community: https://education.oracle.com/ou-community LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/showcase/oracle-university/ X (formerly Twitter): https://twitter.com/Oracle_Edu Special thanks to Arijit Ghosh, David Wright, and the OU Studio Team for helping us create this episode. -------------------------------------------------------- Episode Transcript: 00:00 Welcome to the Oracle University Podcast, the first stop on your cloud journey. During this series of informative podcasts, we'll bring you foundational training on the most popular Oracle technologies. Let's get started. 00:26 Lois: Hello and welcome to the Oracle University Podcast! I'm Lois Houston, Director of Innovation Programs with Oracle University, and with me is Nikita Abraham, Principal Technical Editor. Nikita: Hi everyone! Last week, we discussed how Visual Builder Studio can be used to extend Oracle Fusion Apps. Lois: That's right, Niki. In today's episode, we will focus on Oracle's Redwood design system and how it helps us create stunning, world-class enterprise applications and user experiences. 00:56 Nikita: Yeah, Redwood is the basis for all the new Oracle Cloud Applications being re-designed, developed, and delivered. To tell us more, we have Senior OCI Learning Solutions Architect and Principal Instructor Joe Greenwald, who's been working with Oracle software development tools since the early 90s and is responsible for OU's Visual Builder Studio and Redwood course content. Lois: Hi Joe! Thanks for being with us today. 01:21 Joe: Hi Lois. Hi Niki. I am excited to join you on this episode because with the release of 24A Fusion applications, we are encouraging all our customers to adopt the new Redwood design system and components, and take advantage of the world-class look and feel of the new Redwood user experience. Redwood represents a new approach and direction for us at Oracle, and we're excited to have our customers benefit from it. 01:44 Nikita: Joe, you've been working with Oracle user interface development tools and frameworks for a long time. How and why is Redwood different? Joe: I joined Oracle in 1992, and the first Oracle user interface I experienced was Oracle Forms. And that was the character mode. I came from a background of Smalltalk and its amazing, pioneering graphical user interface (GUI) design capabilities. I worked at Apple and I developed my own GUIs for a few years on PCs and Macs. So, Character Mode Forms, what we used to call DMV (Department of Motor Vehicles) screens, was a shock, to say the least. Since then, I've worked with almost every user interface and development platform Oracle has created: Character Mode Forms, GUI Forms, Power Objects, HyperCard on the Macintosh, that was pre-OS X by the way, Sedona, written in native C++ and ActiveX and OLE, which didn't make it to a product but appeared in other things later, ADF Faces, which uses Java to generate HTML pages, and APEX, which uses PL/SQL to generate HTML pages. And I've worked with and wrote training classes for Java Swing, an excellent GUI framework for event-driven desktop and enterprise applications, but it wasn't designed for the web. So, it's with pleasure that I introduce you to the Redwood design system, easily the best effort I've ever seen, from the look and feel of holistic user-goal-centered design philosophy and approach to the cutting-edge WYSIWYG design tools. 03:11 Lois: Joe, is Redwood just another set of styles, colors, and fonts, albeit very nice-looking ones? Joe: The Redwood platform is new for Oracle, and it represents a significant change, not just in the look and feel, colors, fonts, and styles, I mean that too, but it's also a fundamental change in how Oracle is creating, designing, and imagining user interfaces. As you may be aware, all Oracle Cloud Applications are being re-designed, re-engineered, and re-rebuilt from the ground up, with significant changes to both back-end and front-end architectures. The front end is being redesigned, re-developed, and re-created in pure HTML5, CSS3, and JavaScript using Visual Builder Studio and its design-time browser-based Integrated Development Environment. The back end is being re-architected, re-designed, and implemented in a modern microservice architecture for Oracle Cloud using Kubernetes and other modern technologies that improve performance and work better in the cloud than our current legacy architecture. The new Oracle Cloud Applications platform uses Redwood for its design system—its tools, its patterns, its components, and page templates. Redwood is a richer and more productive platform to create solutions while still being cost-effective for Oracle. It encourages a transformation of the fundamental user experience, emphasizing identifying, meeting, and understanding end users' goals and how the applications are used. 04:34 Nikita: Joe, do you think Oracle's user interface has been improved with Redwood? In what ways has the UI changed? Joe: Yes, absolutely. Redwood has changed a lot of things. When I joined Oracle back in the '90s, there was effectively no user interface division or UI team. There was no user interface lab—and that was started in the mid-‘90s—and I was asked to give product usability feedback and participate in UI tests and experiments in those labs. I also helped test the products I was teaching at the time. I actually distinctly remember having to take a week to train users on Oracle's Designer CASE tool product just to prep the participants enough to perform usability testing. I can still hear the UI lab manager shaking her head and saying any product that requires a week of training to do usability testing has usability issues! And if you're like me and you've been around Oracle long enough, you know that Oracle's not always been known for its user interfaces and been known to release products that look like they were designed by two or more different companies. All that has changed with Redwood. With Redwood, there's a new internal design group that oversees the design choices of all development teams that develop products. This includes a design system review and an ongoing audit process to ensure that all the products being released, whether Fusion apps or something else, all look and feel similar so it looks like it's designed by a single company with a single thought in mind. Which it is. 06:00 Joe: There's a deeper, consistent commitment in identifying user needs, understanding how the applications are being used, and how they meet those user needs through things like telemetry: gathering metrics from the actual components and the Redwood system itself to see how the applications are being used, what's working well, and what isn't. This telemetry is available to us here at Oracle, and we use it to fine tune the applications' usability and purpose. 06:25 Lois: That's really interesting, Joe. So, it's a fundamental change in the way we're doing things. What about the GUI components themselves? Are these more sophisticated than simple GUI components like buttons and text fields? Joe: The graphical components themselves are at a much higher level, more comprehensive, and work better together. And in Redwood, everything is a component. And I'm not just talking about things like input text fields and buttons, though it applies to these more fine-grained components as well. Leveraging Oracle's deep experience in building enterprise applications, we've incorporated that knowledge into creating page templates so that the structure and look and feel of the page is fixed based on our internal design standards. The developer has control over certain portions of it, but the overall look and feel of the page is controlled by Oracle. So there is consistency of look and feel within and across applications. These page templates come with predefined functionalities: headers, titles, properties, and variables to manipulate content and settings, slots for other components to hold like search fields, collections, contextual information, badges, and images, as well as primary and secondary actions, and variables for events and event handling through Visual Builder action chains, which handle the various actions and processing of the request on the page. And all these page templates and components are responsive, meaning they respond to the change in the size of the page and the orientation. So, when you move from a desktop to a handheld mobile device or a tablet, they respond appropriately and consistently to deliver a clean, easy-to-use interface and experience. 07:58 Nikita: You mentioned WYSIWYG design tools and their integration with Visual Builder Studio's integrated development environment. How does Redwood work with Visual Builder Studio? Joe: This is easily one of my most favorite aspects about Redwood and the integration with Visual Builder Studio Designer. The components and page templates are responsive at runtime as well as responsive at design time! In over 30 years of working with Oracle software development products, this is the first development system and integrated development environment I've seen Oracle produce where what you see is what you get at design time. Now, with products such as Designer and JDeveloper ADF Faces and even APEX—all those page-generation types of products—you have to generate the page, deploy it, and only then can you view the final page to see whether it meets the needs of your user interface. For example, with Designer, there were literally hundreds of configuration parameters that you could set to control how forms and reports looked when they were generated —down to how many buttons on a row or how many rows to a page, that sort of thing, all done in text mode. Then you'd generate and run the page to see what the result was and then go back and modify things until you got what you wanted. 09:05 Joe: I remember hearing the product managers for Oracle ADF Faces being asked…well, a customer asked, “What happens if I put this component here and this component here? What will the page look like?” and they'd say, “I don't know. Render the page and let's see.” That's just crazy talk. With Redwood and its integration with Visual Builder Studio Designer, what you see on the page at design time is literally what you get. And if I make the page narrower or I even convert it to a mobile display while in the Designer itself, I immediately see what the page looks like in that new mode. Everything just moves accordingly, at design time. For example, when changing to a mobile UI, everything stacks up nicely; the components adjust to the page size and change right there in the design environment. Again, I can't emphasize enough the simple luxury of being able to see exactly what the user is going to see on my page and having the ability to change the resolution, orientation, and screen size, and it changes right there immediately in my design environment. 10:01 Lois: I'm intrigued by the idea of page templates that are managed by Oracle but still leave room for the developer to customize aspects of the look and feel and functionality. How does that work? Joe: Well, the page templates themselves represent the typical pages you would most likely use in an enterprise application. Things like a welcome page, a search page, and edit and create pages, and a couple of different ways to display summary information, including foldout pages, though this is not an exhaustive list of course. Not only do they provide a logical and complete starting point for the layout of the page itself, but they also include built-in functionality. These templates include functionality for buttons, primary and secondary actions, and areas for holding contextual information, badges, avatars, and images. And this is all built right into the page, and all of them use variables to describe the contents for the various parts, so the contents can change programmatically as the variables' contents change, if necessary. 10:59 Do you have an idea for a new course or learning opportunity? We'd love to hear it! Visit the Oracle University Learning Community and share your thoughts with us on the Idea Incubator. Your suggestion could find a place in future development projects. Visit mylearn.oracle.com to get started. 11:19 Nikita: Welcome back! So, Joe, let's say I'm a developer. How do I get started working with Redwood? Joe: One of the easiest ways to do it is to use Visual Builder Studio Designer and create a new visual application. If you're creating a standalone, bespoke custom application, you can choose a Redwood starter template, which will include all the Redwood components and page templates automatically. Or, if you're extending and customizing an Oracle Fusion application, Redwood is already included. Either way, when you create a new page, you have a choice of different page templates—welcome page templates, edit pages, search pages, etc. —and all you have to do is choose a page that you want and begin configuring it. And actually if you make a mistake, it's easy to switch page templates. All the components, page templates, and so on have documentation right there inside Visual Builder Studio Designer, and we do recommend that you read through the documentation first to get an understanding of what the use case for that template is and how to use it. And some components are more granular, like a collection container which holds a collection of rows of a list or a table and provides capabilities like toolbars and other actions that are already built and defined. You decide what actions you want and then use predefined event listeners that are triggered when an event occurs in the application—like a button being clicked or a row being selected—which kicks off a series of actions to be performed. 12:38 Lois: That sounds easy enough if you know what you're doing. Joe, what are some of the more common pages and what are they used for? Joe: Redwood page templates can be broken down into categories. There are overview templates like the welcome page template, which has a nice banner, colors, and illustrations that can be used for a welcoming page—like for entering a new application or a new logical section of the application. The dashboard landing page template displays key information values and their charts and graphs, which can come from Oracle Analytics, and automatically switches the display depending on which set of data is selected. The detail templates include a general overview, which presents read-only information related to a single record or resource. The item overview gives you a small panel to view summary information (for example, information on a customer) and in the main section, you can view details like all the orders for that customer. And you can even navigate through a set of customers, clicking arrows for next-previous navigation. And that's all built in. There's no programming required. The fold-out page template folds out horizontally to show you individual panels with more detail that can be displayed about the subject being retrieved as well as overflow and drill-down areas. And there's a collection detail template that will display a list with additional details about the selected item (for example, an order and its order line items). 13:52 Joe: The smart search page does exactly what it says. It has a search component that you use to filter or search the data coming back from the REST data sources and then display the results in a list or a table. You define the filter yourself and apply it using different kinds of comparators, so you can look for strings that start with certain values or contain values, or numerical values that are equal to or less than, depending on what you're filtering for. And then there are the transactional templates, which are meant to make changes. This includes both the simple create and edit and advanced create and edit templates. The simple create and edit page template edits a single record or creates a single record. And the advanced page template works well if you're working with master-detail, parent-child type relationships. Let's say you want to view the parent and create children for it or even create a parent and the children at the same time. And there's a Gantt chart page for project management–type tracking and a guided process page for multiple-step processes and there's a data management page template specifically for viewing and editing data collections like Excel spreadsheets. 14:50 Nikita: You mentioned that there's a design system behind all this. How is this used, and how does the customer benefit from it? Joe: Redwood comprises both a design system and a development system. The design system has a series of steps that we follow here at Oracle and can suggest that you, our customers and partners, can follow as well. This includes understanding the problem, articulating the vision for the page and the application (what it should do), identifying the proper Redwood page templates to use, adding detail and refining the design and then using a number of different mechanisms, including PowerPoint or Figma design tools to specify the design for development, and then monitor engagement in the real world. These are the steps that we follow here at Oracle. The Redwood development process starts with learning how to use Redwood components and templates using the documentation and other content from redwood.oracle.com and Visual Builder Studio. Then it's about understanding the design created by the design team, learning more about components and templates for your application, specifically the ones you're going to use, how they work, and how they work together. Then developing your application using Visual Builder Studio Designer, and finally improving and refining your application. Now, right now, as I mentioned, telemetry is available to us here at Oracle so we can get a sense of the feedback on the pages of how components are being used and where time is being spent, and we use that to tune the designs and components being used. That telemetry data may be available to customers in the future. Now, when you go to redwood.oracle.com, you can access the Redwood pattern book that shows you in detail all the different page templates that are available: smart search page, data grid, welcome page, dashboard landing page, and so on, and you can select these and read more about them as well as the actual design specifications that were used to build the pages—defining what they do and what they respond to. They provide a lot of detailed information about the templates and components, how they work and how they're intended to be used. 16:45 Lois: That's a lot of great resources available. But what if I don't have access to Visual Builder Studio Designer? Can I still see how Redwood looks and behaves? Joe: Well, if you go to redwood.oracle.com, you can log in and work with the Redwood reference application, which is a live application working with live data. It was created to show off the various page templates and components, their look and feel and functionality from the Redwood design and development systems. This is an order management application, so you can do things like view filtered pending orders, create new orders, manage orders, and view information about customers and inventory. It uses the different page templates to show you how the application can perform. 17:23 Nikita: I assume there are common aspects to how these page templates are designed, built, and intended to be used. Is that a good way to begin understanding how to work with them? Becoming familiar with their common properties and functionality? Joe: Absolutely! Good point! All pages have titles, and most have primary and secondary actions that can be triggered through a variety of GUI events, like clicking a button or a link or selecting something in a list or a table. The transactional page templates include validation groups that validate whether the data is correct before it is submitted, as well as a message dialog that can pop up if there are unsaved changes and someone tries to leave the page. All the pages can use variables to display information or set properties and can easily display specific contextual information about records that have been retrieved, like adding the Order Number or Customer Name and Number to the page title or section headers. 18:13 Lois: If I were a developer, I'd be really excited to get started! So, let's say I'm a developer. What's the best way to begin learning about Redwood, Joe? Joe: A great place to start learning about the Redwood design and development system is at the redwood.oracle.com page I mentioned. We have many different pages that describe the philosophy and fundamental basis for Redwood, the ideas and intent behind it, and how we're using it here at Oracle. It also has a list of all the different page templates and components you can use and a link to the Redwood reference application where you can sign in and try it yourself. In addition, we at Oracle University offer a course called Design and Develop Redwood Applications, and in there, we have both lecture content as well as hands-on practices where you build a lightweight version of the Redwood reference application using data from the Fusion apps application, as well as the pages that I talked about: the welcome page, detail pages, transactional pages, and the dashboard landing page. And you'll see how those pages are designed and constructed while building them yourself. It's very important though to take one of the free Visual Builder Developer courses first: either Build Visual Applications Using Visual Builder Studio and/or Develop Fusion Applications Using Visual Builder Studio before you try to work through the practices in the Redwood course because it uses a lot of Visual Builder Designer technology. You'll get a lot more out of the Redwood practices if you understand the basics of Visual Builder Studio first. The Build Visual Applications Using Visual Builder Studio course is probably a better place to start unless you know for a fact you will be focusing on extending Oracle Fusion Applications using Visual Builder Studio. Now, a lot of the content is the same between the two courses as they share much of the same technology and architectures. 19:53 Lois: Ok, so Build Visual Applications Using Visual Builder Studio and Develop Fusion Applications Using Visual Builder Studio…all on mylearn.oracle.com and all free for anyone who wants to take them, right? Joe: Yes, exactly. And the free Redwood learning path leads to an Associate certification. While our courses are a great place to start in preparing for your certification exam, they are not, of course, by themselves sufficient to pass and you will want to study and be familiar with the redwood.oracle.com content as well. The learning path is free, but you do have to pay for the certification exam. 20:29 Nikita: Thanks for those tips, Joe, and we appreciate you joining us today. Joe: Thanks for having me! Lois: Join us next week when we'll discuss how model-based development is still alive and well today. Until next time, this is Lois Houston… Nikita: And Nikita Abraham, signing off! 20:45 That's all for this episode of the Oracle University Podcast. If you enjoyed listening, please click Subscribe to get all the latest episodes. We'd also love it if you would take a moment to rate and review us on your podcast app. See you again on the next episode of the Oracle University Podcast.
The next generation of front-end user interfaces for Oracle Fusion Applications is being built using Visual Builder Studio and Oracle JavaScript Extension Toolkit. However, many of the terms associated with these tools can be confusing. In this episode, Lois Houston and Nikita Abraham are joined by Senior Principal OCI Instructor Joe Greenwald. Together, they take you through the different terminologies, how they relate to each other, and how they can be used to deliver the new Oracle Fusion Applications as well as stand-alone, bespoke visual web applications. Develop Fusion Applications Using Visual Builder Studio: https://mylearn.oracle.com/ou/course/develop-fusion-applications-using-visual-builder-studio/122614/ Build Visual Applications Using Visual Builder Studio: https://mylearn.oracle.com/ou/course/build-visual-applications-using-oracle-visual-builder-studio/110035/ Oracle University Learning Community: https://education.oracle.com/ou-community LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/showcase/oracle-university/ X (formerly Twitter): https://twitter.com/Oracle_Edu Special thanks to Arijit Ghosh, David Wright, and the OU Studio Team for helping us create this episode. --------------------------------------------------------- Episode Transcript: 00:00 Welcome to the Oracle University Podcast, the first stop on your cloud journey. During this series of informative podcasts, we'll bring you foundational training on the most popular Oracle technologies. Let's get started. 00:26 Lois: Hello and welcome to the Oracle University Podcast. I'm Lois Houston, Director of Innovation Programs with Oracle University, and with me is Nikita Abraham, Principal Technical Editor. Nikita: Hi everyone! Today, we're starting a new season on building the next generation of Oracle Cloud Apps with Visual Builder Studio. 00:45 Lois: And I'm so excited that we have someone really special to take us through the next few episodes. Joe Greenwald is joining us. Joe is a Senior Principal OCI Instructor with Oracle University. He joined Oracle in 1992 with an extensive background in CASE tools. Since then, he has used and taught all of Oracle's software development tools, including Oracle Forms, APEX, JDeveloper ADF, as well as all the Fusion Middleware courses. Currently, Joe is responsible for the Visual Builder Studio and Redwood development courses, including extending Fusion Applications with Visual Builder. 01:22 Nikita: In today's episode, we're going to ask Joe about Visual Builder Studio and Oracle JavaScript Extension Toolkit, also known as JET. Together, they form the basis of the technology for the next generation of front-end user interfaces for Oracle Fusion Applications, as well as many other Oracle applications, including most Oracle Cloud Infrastructure (OCI) interfaces. Lois: We'll look at the different terminologies and technologies, how they relate to each other, and how they deliver the new Oracle Fusion applications and stand-alone, bespoke visual web applications. Hi Joe! Thanks for being with us today. 01:57 Joe: Hi Lois! Hi Niki! I'm glad to be here. Nikita: Joe, I'm somewhat thrown by the terminology around Visual Builder, Visual Studio, and JET. Can you help streamline that for us? Lois: Yeah, things that are named the same sometimes refer to different things, and sometimes things with a different name refer to the same thing. 02:15 Joe: Yeah, I know where you're coming from. So, let's start with Visual Builder Studio. It's abbreviated as VBS and can go by a number of different names. Some of the most well-known ones are Visual Builder Studio, VBS, Visual Builder, Visual Builder Stand-Alone, and Visual Builder Cloud Service. Clearly, this can be very confusing. For the purposes of these episodes as well as the training courses I create, I use certain definitions. 02:39 Lois: Can you take us through those? Joe: Absolutely, Lois. Visual Builder Studio refers to a product that comes free with an OCI account and allows you to manage your project-related assets. This includes the project itself, which is a container for all of its assets. You can assign teams to your projects, as well as secure the project and declare roles for the different team members. You manage GIT repositories with full graphical and command-line GIT support, define package, build, and deploy jobs, and create and run continuous integration/continuous deployment graphical and code-managed pipelines for your applications. These can be visual applications, created using the Visual Builder Integrated Development Environment, the IDE, or non-visual apps, such as Java microservices, docker builds, NPM apps, and things like that. And you can define environments, which determine where your build jobs can be deployed. You can also define issues, which allow you to identify, track, and manage things like bugs, defects, and enhancements. And these can be tracked in code review merge requests and build jobs, and be mapped to agile sprints and scrum boards. There's also support for wikis for team collaboration, code snippets, and the management of the repository and the project itself. So, VBS supports code reviews before code is merged into GIT branches for package, build, and deploy jobs using merge requests. 03:57 Nikita: OK, what exactly do you mean by that? Joe: Great. So, for example, you could have developers working in one GIT branch and when they're done, they would push their private code changes into that remote branch. Then, they'd submit a merge request and their changes would be reviewed. Once the changes are approved, their code branch is merged into the main branch and then automatically runs a CI/CD package (continuous integration/continuous deployment) package, build, and deploy job on the code. Also, the CI/CD package, build, and deploy jobs can run against any branches, not just the main branch. So Visual Builder Studio is intended for managing the project and all of its assets. 04:37 Lois: So Joe, what are the different tools used in developing web applications? Joe: Well, Visual Builder, Visual Builder Studio Designer, Visual Builder Designer, Visual Builder Design-Time, Visual Builder Cloud Service, Visual Builder Stand-Alone all kind of get lumped together. You can kinda see why. What I'm referring to here are the tools that we use to build a visual web application composed of HTML5, CSS3, JavaScript, and JSON (JavaScript Object Notation) for metadata. I call this Visual Builder Designer. This is an Integrated Development Environment, it's the “IDE” which runs in your browser. You use a combination of drag and drop, setting properties, and writing and modifying custom and generated code to develop your web applications. You work within a workspace, which is your own private copy of a remote Git branch. When you're ready to start development work, you open an existing workspace or create a new one based on a clone of the remote branch you want to work on. Typically, a new branch would be created for the development work or you would join an existing branch. 05:35 Nikita: What's a workspace, Joe? Is it like my personal laptop and drive? Joe: A workspace is your own private code area that stores any changes you make on the Oracle servers, so your code changes are never lost—even when working in a browser-based, network-based tool. A good analogy is, say I was working at home on my own machine. And I would make a copy of a remote GIT branch and then copy that code down to my local machine, make my code changes, do my testing, etc. and then commit my work—create a logical save point periodically—and then when I'm ready, I'd push that code up into the remote branch so it can be reviewed and merged with the main branch. My local machine is my workspace. However, since this code is hosted up by Oracle on our servers, and the code and the IDE are all running in your browser, the workspace is a simulation of a local work area on your own computer. So, the workspace is a hosted allocation of resources for you that's private. Other people can't see what's going on in your workspace. Your workspace has a clone of the remote branch that you're working with and the changes you make are isolated to your cloned code in your workspace. 06:38 Lois: Ok… the code is actually hosted on the server, so each time you make a change in the browser, the change is written back to the server? Is it possible that you might lose your edits if there's a networking interruption? Joe: I want to emphasize that while I started out not personally being a fan of web-based integrated development environments, I have been using these tools for over three years and in all that time, while I have lost a connection at times—networks are still subject to interruptions—I've never lost any changes that I've made. Ever. 07:08 Nikita: Is there a way to save where you are in your work so that you could go back to it later if you need to? Joe: Yes, Niki, you're asking about commits and savepoints, like in a Git repository or a Git branch. When you reach a logical stopping or development point in your work, you would create a commit or a savepoint. And when you're ready, you would push that committed code in your workspace up to the remote branch where it can be reviewed and then eventually merged, usually with the main Git branch, and then continuous integration/continuous package and deployment build jobs are run. Now, I'm only giving you a high-level overview, but we cover all this and much more in detail with hands-on practices in our Visual Builder developer courses. Right now, I'm just trying to give you a sense of how these different tools are used. 07:49 Lois: Yes, that makes sense, Joe. It's a lot to cover in a short amount of time. Now, we've discussed the Visual Builder Designer IDE and workspace. But can you tell us more about Visual Builder Cloud Service and stand-alone environments? What are they used for? What features do they provide? Are they the same or different things? Joe: Visual Builder Cloud Service or Visual Builder Stand-Alone, as it's sometimes called, is a service that Oracle hosts on its servers. It provides hosting for the deployed web application source code as well as database tables for business objects that we build and maintain to store your customer data. This data can come from XLS or CSV files, or even your own Oracle database customer table data. A custom REST proxy makes calls to external third-party REST services on your behalf and supports several popular authentication mechanisms. There is also integration with the Identity Cloud Service (IDCS) to manage users and their access to your web apps. 08:47 Joe: Visual Builder Cloud Service is a for-fee product. You pay licensing fees for how much you use because it's a hosted service. Visual Builder Studio, the project asset management aspect I discussed earlier, is free with a standard OCI license. Now, keep in mind these are separate from something like Visual Builder Design Time and the service that's running in Fusion application environments. What I'm talking about now is creating standalone, bespoke, custom visual applications. These are applications that are built using industry-standard HTML5, CSS3, JavaScript, and JSON for metadata and are hosted on the Oracle servers. 09:27 Are you looking for practical use cases to help you plan and apply configurations that solve real-world challenges? With the new Applied Learning courses for Cloud Applications, you'll be able to practically apply the concepts learned in our implementation courses and work through case studies featuring key decisions and configurations encountered during a typical Oracle Cloud Applications implementation. Applied learning scenarios are currently available for General Ledger, Payables, Receivables, Accounting Hub, Global Human Resources, Talent Management, Inventory, and Procurement, with many more to come! Visit mylearn.oracle.com to get started. 10:09 Nikita: Welcome back! Joe, you said Visual Builder Cloud Service or Stand-Alone is a for-fee service. Is there a way I can learn about using Visual Builder Designer to build bespoke visual applications without a fee? Joe: Yes. Actually, we've added an option where you can run the Visual Builder Designer and learn how to create web apps without using the app hosting or the business object database that stores your customer data or the REST proxy for authentication or the Identity Cloud Service. So you don't get those features, but you can still learn the fundamentals of developing with Visual Builder Designer. You can call third-party APIs, you can download the source, and run it locally, for example, in a Tomcat server. This is a great and free way to learn how to develop with the Visual Builder Designer. 10:52 Lois: Joe, I want to know more about the kinds of apps you can build in VB Designer and the capabilities that VB Cloud Service provides. Joe: Visual Builder Designer allows you to build custom, bespoke web applications made of interactive webpages; flows of pages for navigation; events that respond when things happen in the app, for example, GUI events like a button is clicked or values are entered into a text field; variables to store state and the ability to make REST calls, all from your browser. These applications have full access to the Oracle Fusion Applications APIs, given that you have the right security permissions and credentials of course. They can access your customer business data as business objects in our internally hosted database tables or your own customer database tables. They can access third-party APIs, and all these different data sources can appear in the same visual application, on the same page, at the same time. They use the identity cloud service to identify which users can log in and authenticate against the application. And they all use the new Redwood graphical user interface components and page templates, so they have the same look and feel of all Oracle applications. 11:59 Nikita: But what if you're building or extending Oracle Fusion Applications? Don't things change a little bit? Joe: Good point, Niki. Yes. While you still work within Visual Builder Studio, that doesn't change, VBS maintains your project and all your project-related assets, that is still the same. However, in this case, there is no separate hosted Visual Builder Cloud Service or Stand-Alone instance. In this case, Visual Builder is hosted inside of Fusion apps itself as part of the installation. I won't go into the details of how the architecture works, but the Visual Builder instance that you're running your code against is part of Fusion applications and is included in the architecture as well as the billing. All your code changes are maintained and stored within a single container called an extension. And this extension is a Git repository that is created for you, or you can create it yourself, depending on how you choose to work within Visual Builder Studio. You create an extension to hold the source code changes that provide a customization or configuration. This means making a change to an existing page or a set of pages or even adding new pages and flows to your Oracle Fusion Applications. You use Visual Builder Studio and Visual Builder Designer in a similar way as to how you would use them for bespoke stand-alone visual applications. 13:10 Lois: I'm trying to envision how this workflow is used. How is it different from bespoke VB app development? Or is it different at all? Joe: So, recall that the Visual Builder Designer is effectively the Integrated Development Environment, the IDE, where you make your code changes by working with both the raw HTML5, CSS3, and JavaScript code, if need be, or the Page Designer for drag and drop, and setting properties and then Live mode to test your work. You use a version of VB Designer to view and modify your customizations, and the code is stored in a Git repository called an extension. So, in that sense, the work of developing pages and flows and such is the same. You still start by creating or, more typically, joining a project and then either create a new extension from scratch or base it on an existing application, or go directly to the page that you want to edit and, on that page, select from your profile menu to edit in Visual Builder Studio. Now, this is a different lifecycle path from bespoke visual applications. With them, you're not extending an app or modifying individual pages in the same way. 14:11 Joe: You get a choice of which project you want to add your extension to when you're working with Fusion apps and potentially which repository to store your customizations, unless one already exists and then it's assigned automatically to hold your code changes. So you make your changes and edits to the portions of the application that have been opened for extensibility by the development team. This is another difference. Once you make your code changes, the workflow is pretty much the same as for a bespoke visual application: do your development work, commit your changes, push your changes to the remote branch. And then typically, your code is reviewed and if the code passes and is approved, it's merged with the main branch. Then, the package and deploy jobs run to deploy the main code to the production environment or whatever environment you're targeting. And once the package and deploy jobs complete, the code base is updated and users who log in see the changes that you've made. 15:00 Nikita: You mentioned creating apps that combine data from Fusion cloud, applications, customer data, and third-party APIs into one page. Why is it necessary? Why can't you just do all that in one Fusion Applications extension? Joe: When you create extensions, you are working within the Oracle Fusion Applications ecosystem, that's what they actually call it, which includes a defined a set of users who have been predefined and are, therefore, known to Fusion Applications. So, if you're a user and you're not part of that Fusion Apps ecosystem, you can't access the pages. Period. That's how Fusion Apps works to maintain its security and integrity. Secondly, you're working pretty much solely with the Fusion Applications APIs data sources coming directly from Fusion Applications, which are also available to you when you're creating bespoke visual apps. When you're working with Fusion Applications in Visual Builder, you don't have access to these business objects that give you access to your own customer database data through Visual Builder-generated REST APIs. Business objects are available only to bespoke visual applications in the hosted VB Cloud Service instance. So, your data sources are restricted to the Oracle Fusion Applications APIs and some third-party APIs that work within a narrow set of authentication mechanisms currently, although there are plans to expand this in the future. A mashup app that allows you now to access all these data sources while creating apps that leverage the Redwood Component System, so they look and work like Fusion Apps. They're a highly popular option for our partners and customers. 16:25 Lois: So, to review, we have two different approaches. You can create a visual application using the for-fee, hosted Visual Builder Cloud Service/Stand-Alone or the one that comes with Oracle Integration Cloud, or you can use the extension architecture for Fusion applications, where you use the designer and create your extensions, and the code is delivered and deployed to Fusion applications code. You haven't talked about JET yet though, Joe. What is that? Joe: So, JET is an abbreviation. It stands for Oracle JavaScript Extension Toolkit and JET is the underlying technology that makes Visual Builder, visual applications, and Visual Builder Extensions for Fusion Applications possible. Oracle JavaScript Extension Toolkit provides a module-based, open-source toolkit that leverages modern JavaScript, TypeScript, CSS3, and HTML5 to deliver web applications. It's targeted at JavaScript developers working on client-side applications. It is not for backend development. It's a collection of popular, powerful JavaScript libraries and a set of Oracle-contributed JavaScript libraries that make it very simple, easy, and efficient to build front-end applications that can consume and interact with Oracle products and services, especially Oracle Cloud services, but of course it can work with any type of third-party API. 17:42 Nikita: How are JET applications architected, Joe, and how does that relate to Visual Builder pages and flows? Joe: The architecture of JET applications is what's called a single page architecture. We've all seen these. These are where you have a single web page—think of your index page that provides the header and footer for your web page—and then the middle portion or the middle content of the page, represented by modules, allow you to navigate from one page or module to another. It also provides the data mapping so that the data elements in the variables and the state of the application, as well as the graphical user interface elements that provide the fields and functionality for the interface for the application, these are all maintained on the client side. If you're working in pure JET, then you work with these modules at the raw JavaScript code level. And there are a lot of JavaScript developers who want to work like this and create their custom applications from the code up, so to speak. However, it also provides the basis for Visual Builder visual applications and Fusion Apps visual extensions in Visual Builder. 18:38 Lois: How does JET support VB Apps? You didn't talk much about having to write a bunch of JavaScript and HTML5 so I got the impression that this is all done for you by VB Designer? Joe: Visual Builder applications are composed of HTML5, CSS3, and JavaScript code that is usually generated by the developer when she drags and drops components on to the page designer canvas or sets properties or creates action chains to respond to events. But there's also a lot of JavaScript object notation (JSON) metadata created at the time that describes the pages, the flows, the navigation, the REST services, the variables, their data types, and other assets needed for the app to function. This JSON metadata is translated at runtime using a large JavaScript extension toolkit library called the Visual Builder Runtime that runs in the browser and real time translates the metadata and other assets in the Visual Builder source code into JET code and assets, which are actually executed at runtime. And it's very quick, very fast, very efficient, and provides a layer of abstraction between the raw JET code and the Visual Builder architecture of pages, flows, action chains for executing code and events to handle things that occur in the user interface, including saving the state in variables that are mapped to GUI components. For example, if you have an Input text component, you need to have a variable to store the value that was entered into that Input text component between page refreshes. The data can move from the Input text component to the variable, and from the variable to that Input text component if it's changed programmatically, for example. So, JET manages binding these data values to variables and the UI components on the page. So, a change to a variable value or a change to the contents of the component causes the others to change automatically. Now, this is only a small part of what JET and the frameworks and libraries it uses do for the applications. JET also provides more complex GUI components like lists and tables, and selection lists, and check boxes, and all the sorts of things you would expect in a modern GUI application. 20:34 Nikita: You mentioned a layer of abstraction between Visual Builder Studio Designer and JET. What's the benefit of working in Visual Builder Designer versus JET itself? Joe: The benefit of Visual Builder is that you work at a higher level of abstraction than having to get down into the more detailed levels of deep JavaScript code, working with modules, data mappings, HTML code, single page architecture navigation, and the related functionalities. You can work at a higher level, a graphical level, where you can drag and drop things onto a design canvas and set properties. The VB architecture insulates you from the more technical bits of JET. Now, this frees the developer to concentrate more on application and page design, implementing logic and business rules, and creating a pleasing workflow and look and feel for the user. This keeps them from having to get caught up in the details of getting this working at the code level. Now if needed, you can write custom JavaScript, HTML5, and CSS3 code, though much less than in a JET app, and all that is part of the VB application source, which becomes part of the code used by JET to execute the application itself. And yet it all works seamlessly together. 21:35 Lois: Joe, I know we have courses in JavaScript, HTML, and CSS. But does a developer getting ready to work in Visual Builder Designer have to go take those courses first or can they start working in VB Designer right away? Joe: Yeah, that question does often comes up: Do I need to learn JET to work with Visual Builder? No, you don't. That's all taken care for you in the products themselves. I don't really think it helps that much to learn JET if you are going to be a VB developer. In some ways, it could even be a bit distracting since some of things you learn to do in JET, you would have to unlearn or not do so much because of what VB does it for you. The things you would have to do manually in code in JET are done for you. This is why we call VB a low code development tool. I mean, you certainly can if you want to, but I would spend more time learning about the different GUI components, page templates, the Visual Builder architecture — events, action chains, and the data provider variables and types. Now, I know JET myself. I started with that before learning Visual Builder, but I use very little of my JET knowledge as a VB developer. Visual Builder Designer provides a nice, abstracted, clean layer of modern visual development on top of JET, while leveraging the power and flexibility of JET and keeping the lower-level details out of my way. 22:46 Nikita: Joe, where can I go to get started with Visual Builder? Joe: Well, for more information, I recommend you take a look at our Develop Fusion Applications course if you're working with Fusion Applications and Visual Builder Studio. The other course is Develop Visual Applications with Visual Builder Studio and that's if you're creating stand-alone bespoke applications. Both these courses are free. We also have a comprehensive course that covers JavaScript, HTML5, and CSS3, and while it's not required that you take that to be successful, it can be helpful down the road. I would say that some basic knowledge of HTML5, CSS3, and JavaScript will certainly support you and serve you well when working with Visual Builder. You learn more as you go along and you find that you need to create more sophisticated applications. I would also mention that a lot of the look and feel of the applications in Visual Builder visual applications and Fusion apps extensions and customizations come through JET components, JET styles, and JET variables, and CSS variables, so that's something that you would want to pursue at some point. There's a JET cookbook out there. You can search for Oracle JET and look for the JET cookbook and that's a good introduction to all of that. 23:47 Lois: Joe, thank you so much for joining us today. We're really looking forward to having you back next week to discuss extending Oracle Fusion Applications with Visual Builder Studio. Joe: Thanks for having me. Nikita: And if you want to learn about some of the courses Joe mentioned, visit mylearn.oracle.com to get started. Until next time, this is Nikita Abraham… Lois: And Lois Houston signing off! 24:09 That's all for this episode of the Oracle University Podcast. If you enjoyed listening, please click Subscribe to get all the latest episodes. We'd also love it if you would take a moment to rate and review us on your podcast app. See you again on the next episode of the Oracle University Podcast.
This episode features a conversation between Joe Dulac from the class of 1990 and Ely Bueno from the class of 1998. Joe and Ely first met because they went through the New Hampshire Dartmouth Family Medicine Residency Program at Concord Hospital. They have stayed in touch since then, but reconnected in a meaningful way during the COVID-19 pandemic. Their conversation showcases how the mission of Holy Cross and the lessons learned during their time on the Hill helped to support them in living a life of meaning and purpose in service of others. Interview originally recorded in May 2022. --- Joe: We were going to just stay home during a pandemic or we were going to step up and figure out... Honestly, the choice was close down the practice and maybe we'll open up in a few months or we're going to figure out a way to reopen and serve our patients. Maura Sweeney: Welcome to Mission-Driven, where we speak with alumni who are leveraging their Holy Cross education to make a meaningful difference in the world around them. I'm your host, Maura Sweeney, from the class of 2007, Director of Alumni Career Development at Holy Cross. I'm delighted to welcome you to today's show. This episode features a conversation between Joe Dulac from the class of 1990 and Ely Bueno from the class of 1998. Joe and Ely first met because they went through the New Hampshire Dartmouth Family Medicine Residency Program at Concord Hospital. They have stayed in touch since then, but reconnected in a meaningful way during the COVID-19 pandemic. This conversation offered Ely a chance to ask Joe questions to learn more about his professional journey, which included the opportunity to open and build a practice from scratch. It also gave them a chance to reflect on their past, discover shared connections and process everything they went through over the past few years. In particular, they speak about the challenges that doctors faced during the pandemic and how they lifted each other up during difficult times. Their conversation showcases how the mission of Holy Cross and the lessons learned during their time on the Hill helped to support them in living a life of meaning and purpose in service of others. Ely: Joe, thanks so much for agreeing to do this interview in this format. It comes from a place of deep gratitude for your professional contact and your friendship over the several years that we've known each other. And so now we get to dive in. Joe: Great. This is a great opportunity to meet with you and try something new, right? Ely: Yeah, definitely. And now, did you ever go on the spiritual exercises in Holy Cross, Joe? Joe: Right. Did a lot of things at Holy Cross, and so did do the one-week silent retreat in Narragansett, Rhode Island, which... it was very powerful, of course. Ely: Yeah. Joe: Yeah. Quite an experience. Ely: Yeah. So I also attended, and I think as we start invoking that Ignatian spirit of really the deep sense of giving of ourselves for others in contemplation, in meeting God through story, this is really a great opportunity that Maura has for us as alumni to connect and tell our story. So I'm really eager to hear about yours. And so diving right in, tell me about how you got to where you are now from Holy Cross and beyond. Joe: Okay, sure. Certainly, I always talk about paths being not really straight. You think you're going to go on a straight path and then path kind of zigzags. So to get to Holy Cross, so I was Chelmsford High School and was very interested in sciences and was accepted into Holy Cross for chemistry pre-med. And obviously that was challenging and stimulating. And so I went through the process there with all the pre-meds and the basic science and chemistry. And there was a time where there was a choice between being a chem major, going to chem grad school or going to med school. And so there was a time where there was some uncertainty, the path that I might take. So a lot of the professors were very supportive, really of either path. But because I was a chem major, I think they were very supportive of the chemistry track. So I did do research in the summer with Holy Cross and with Dr. Ditzer, and enjoyed that, but still found myself interested in the pre-med track. So I applied and went through all the steps with the MCATs. Did have some struggles in my junior year, so I did have a little bit more of a crooked path after that. So I did a year of grad school. I was going to go into Georgetown, but found that Boston University had a program on medical sciences, and I got accepted from that program and into the med school there. And so my first year was doing a thesis, but I was able to take several medical school courses including gross anatomy and neurosciences and physiology. So that really helped solidify what I wanted to do in the path. And though I had a little bit of struggles in my junior year in grad school and in med school. Well, the first year of grad school, my professors had remarked that I had caught fire academically and kind of on a tear. So the path was kind of a little bit crooked there. But once I settled in at Boston University after Holy Cross, the medical sciences just kind of took over and it's kind of a labor of love, learning and staying up late and being on call and all that. So I was at the Boston Medical Center there in Boston University, which was really interesting time because they were building the new hospital. So halfway through training, they completed the hospital there and then they crushed it down to smithereens. But in one day we basically were in the old hospital and the next day we were in the new hospital. And so that was really great training through the basic sciences at Holy Cross and experiences there. And then I was looking into residencies and as would have it, I had applied to a lot in the New England area for residencies for family medicine. And I had gotten a scholarship in Lowell with the Mass Medical Society and John Janice and his family, one of the doctors in the family was starting the residency in Concord and Lebanon, New Hampshire. And he said, "Hey, I'm going to give you the scholarship, but maybe you should consider our program." And so I applied and matched. And so I ended up in Concord and mostly Concord and Lebanon for family medicine. And it was the very first year of the program, which probably better I didn't really know what I was getting myself into. The program was really good, but as a first kind of run through, what I didn't understand at the time was that though you're a resident, you're basically a faculty member because you're developing all the programs everywhere. Every program, every rotation was the first time they ever had a resident or any kind of training. So that was a different kind of experience as well. Ely: I have some questions about your residency challenges. How much did you do in the bigger hospital in Lebanon? Joe: I did several rotations up in Lebanon, which were great. So I did a lot of pediatrics there with Chad. So that was our big pediatric kind of connection. And then I actually did obstetrics in Augusta, Maine because at the time... I'm not sure if you're trained for OB as well, but they wanted us to be fully trained for OB, which I was. So I did an OB rotation. I made that happen in Augusta, Maine, which was really interesting, delivering babies out. It's the state capital, but it's still kind of rural actually. And then I did also make a OB rotation in Beverly, Mass. And that was very developmental because no one had ever been there before. And then I did sports medicine, I made some sports medicine rotations in Portland, Maine. So those were interesting. And then I did put together a holistic herbal experience with Ascutney mountain and the herbalist. So that was up near the Lebanon area, but for pediatrics, I think I did a few months at Chad. So it was great being up there at that hospital too. Yeah, the Dartmouth Hitchcock Hospital is a really fantastic place to train. Ely: Yeah. I am very proud of our family medicine residency program. By the time that I had arrived in Concord, it was exclusively at Concord Hospital, so all rotations were there. And I did high risk OB rotation in Nashua, New Hampshire, and some of the main Dartmouth residents came to our program to do some rotations or came down to Nashua to do some rotations. So that kind of relationship with other hospitals in the area were nice to be able to have established from relationships that you guys forged. So that has always been a nice part about learning in community. Joe: Well, I know we had touched base about that, and I remember having mixed feelings about the training and starting a new program. I remember you mentioning to me one time how you felt that the program was really excellent and that you had gotten really well-trained there. I know the training was definitely good in terms of experiences because even though it's not necessarily big city, Concord is the state capital again of New Hampshire, but still a lot of it's rural, a lot of rural type of problems. At the time, at least, I don't know how it was by the time you got there, but still a lot of patients had hadn't had access to doctors in a long time. So most of the illness that we would see as residents were actually advanced and surprising, patients with really far along illnesses that you're kind of surprised that they could just still be walking around with that situation. Yeah. Ely: Yes, definitely. That kind of establishing disease management and identifying severe disease was really was an important part of training. And I think, yes, Concord is a catchment area for that area. And Concord Hospital's Family Health Center is a federally qualified health center, much like where you work in East Boston currently, but there were a lot of social workers that helped. So there was definitely this sense of team effort to help engage people's health and work together. So that was a really good part. That's what I really liked about the training is that I learned from our pharmacists, from our social workers and other community health workers. So that was a good part of the training there. And it sounds like that helped you establish your career with in Dracut because you started your clinic there. Joe: I think all experiences eventually helped you later on for sure. So you're right, in Concord starting the residency program, I guess to some degree I wasn't scared to start a practice. So I guess there's that component of it. But though after I finished with the residency program that you also attended, then I returned back to my hometown in Chelmsford. And so when I finished, I went and had physical make sure that I also checked on my health. And so at that time I had gotten a physical in Chelmsford, the doctor that there was working with some other doctors and offered me a job in their clinic. And I said, "well, I'm just here for a physical, I don't think I want-" Ely: You got a job. Joe: Yeah, "don't think I want a whole job, but my physical must have been good." Ely: God bless family medicine, we do it all. Joe: So I did work a couple years in my hometown in Chelmsford in Drum Hill with Dr. Gamasis. And then actually I went back into New Hampshire. So when Michelle and I were married, we moved up to New Hampshire and then I worked with Wentworth-Douglass Hospital doing family medicine. And at that time, certainly most of the career up until that point and even after was fall spectrum. So when I worked in Chelmsford, it was inpatient medicine, outpatient medicine, ICU care, the rehabs, home care. So it was a lot. And so we would admit patients to the hospital, we would follow them and also do ICU care, and that was very satisfying. But it's a different world than it certainly is now in terms of, I suppose, expectations, acuity, the length of stay. I don't think it's even possible to do both now, but we did. And so I did that up in Concord and then actually we put a hospitalist program in there, which was actually very controversial, and then we ended up just transitioning to outpatient medicine. So then in 2007, I actually came back down to the area of Merrimack Valley with Saints Medical Center. They were near and dear to my heart because I had still been on staff there and they were looking to open practices and they said, "hey, can you open one of practice for us in Dracut?" And I said, that sounds really exciting because for me as a physician, I've always enjoyed obviously seeing patients and being in different environments. But one thing that you may never have an opportunity to do is to start a practice. And as a physician, starting a practice means you can really put your own personality into it and you're not inheriting necessarily a practice that's already there, or maybe another doctor's patient with maybe their style of medicine. So that was really exciting for me to be able to do that. And so the cool part about that situation was they also wanted me to be involved in the design build of the practice, which was super exciting. I didn't know anything about architect work or designing anything. So that was really exciting. And then we opened the practice and we had no patients. Day one, no patients, which is different than a lot of scenarios. So that was exciting and scary at the same time. Ely: Well, the natural question now I have is how did you recruit patients? Joe: Gosh, that was exciting time too. So a couple things, you just never know how life's going to go. So while we were doing this project, it was supposed to start in 2007, but it was delayed. So I had left the job in New Hampshire, came down, and they said, okay, unfortunately it's going to take longer than we expected. We're going to put you at the walk-in clinic for the year that we're going to get all this project going. And that was in Lowell. So I had never done urgent care medicine, so it's a little different and exciting and somewhat scary too, actually at times. And so I did that for a year. And there was a doctor that Dr. Bousquet who was a really wonderful doctor and a friend, so he must have known his life path what it was going to be. So he basically introduced me to so many people, so many patients. Even though he was kind of retired, they would still come to the clinic and he'd do kind of a primary care situation for them and then he would introduce them to me. And so I wasn't even really kind of aware of that was what was happening. And then so when I opened the practice, I did have actually a core of patients, which was really nice. And then we just did a lot of different things. So we went to every possible event that they had. So we went to job fairs where they wanted medical people. We went to the old home day in Dracut. I went to the Dracut baseball night, the comedy night, the fundraisers, whatever just to meet people. So that summer was really interesting. So we had no patients and then we slowly developed patients. I just basically stayed on a call every day, which wasn't as bad as it sounds, but when you have a startup practice, it's kind of neat to be on call all the time because then you're connecting with the patients very, very well. And then we had excellent people. So basically, there were three of us. So the three of us basically started the start of the office. So it was kind of exciting times. Yeah. Ely: That is quite a journey and a lot of legwork goes into building a practice in terms of just building the relationships you had with Dr. Bousquet. And so I am curious though, just as much as you were really involved in the community, if you can talk about it, how did it impact the way you and your family were developing? How did that balance work with being on call all the time and having all these obligations with work? How did you- Joe: It worked out in some ways. So though at the time, and actually still now, so we live way up in almost near Portsmouth, New Hampshire, but the practice was in Dracut, but again, this is kind of how crooked lines work and nothing's ever kind of straightforward. So we're both from that area. So she's from Lowell, I'm from Chelmsford, so we have family there. So though it was challenging in some ways to be here and there, it also was doable because for instance, her mom lives there. Her mom lives right down the street. And then my parents live in Chelmsford, and then my brothers live in Nashua and Chelmsford. So I think if it was a different location, it probably wouldn't have worked, but I could check on her mom, I can check on my parents, I can see my brothers. So that was nice. And then we could stay there. We could stay there on the night or the weekend. So that worked out really well. And then starting a practice also meant that I had flexibility because I could tell patients to come at seven o'clock in the morning, they could call me. So there was a lot of flexibility and that allowed me to have time to coach baseball and soccer and flag football. And so I guess it just kind of worked out because I guess you wanted it to, if you wanted it to work out. There were times it was hard. So I coached a lot of baseball, and so I even started sometimes at 6:00 AM and then would try to complete by early afternoon and then kind of rush home and then run some baseball drills, run the practices or the games or whatever. So I guess it just eventually worked out. But I think having some creativity in it and then having it be my own entity was really exciting. You have a lot of ownership in it and you can make things work, I suppose. And I really enjoyed having a personal connection to the patients that allows them to tell me that the schedule doesn't work for them, for instance, and they need something, and I can say, well, why don't you just come in at 7:30 and I'll do your physical then, things like that, which is to me is very, very satisfying 'cause the patient obviously needs certain things and I can know what those are. And then having some flexibility allows you to meet that need and you feel like, okay, that's why I'm actually here. Ely: Yes. Joe: Yeah. Ely: Well... you did... you say... it's amaze... I love hearing about this story and it's just different than mine. I also had a zigzaggy kind of path to medicine. But what I really am getting the sense of, Joe, is that you worked really hard to create your network, your family, really, work family, and then you really worked hard with your wife to build a network and a team that supported both of you, all of you. And if we don't really have a supporting team around us, it just can't work. And that's really a wonderful thing that you had and have currently. But I can imagine the shift in the culture of medicine and the way it's been managed provides some challenges now too. How have the rules changed around you in terms of management? Joe: Those are really great questions. And I guess it's easy to just gloss over the past and think, okay, gosh, everything was just really rosy, but it's not, it's not always rosy. So currently I think I'm way more satisfied than probably I have been in maybe in a long time. And I think some of that is because, like you were mentioning about working with people or networking, I think a lot of it is because the other doctor in the practice and also another doctor that also is there, we worked together to create the systems. Again, not to maybe speak poorly about systems, but we were in systems thinking, this is not really kind of what we're thinking or this is not actually functioning how we want it to function. Oh, okay, so you're feeling the same way as me and you're feeling the same way. And then, okay, let's express that. So we actually met a lot. It's changed even over the COVID, but we met a lot as doctors to talk about what we thought about medicine, what we thought about and how things should go, and then why it was or wasn't at that point. So I think at some point we just became leaders of our own own destiny. Now that doesn't always come easy. Sometimes you got to fight for that and sometimes it just works out. Certainly to your point, and I've kind of learned this kind of the hard way over time, I think joining forces with people is way more effective than just being the only person that maybe is complaining about something or that wants something to change. If you have two or three people that you work well with and you talk about things and you actually make sense, it's going to go good places, right? Ely: Agreed. Joe: Hopefully. Ely: Yes. Joe: Hopefully. Ely: Well, collaboration always brings some good fruits. And I would have to say, I really felt like over COVID, as we progress in this age of COVID, I'll just say it's really the pandemic continues, let's remind each other, and- Joe: It is continuing. Ely: ... it continues. But I feel like throughout COVID, I would often send a little message out to you in a way that helped me process what was going on. And the confusion about how we were operating or guidelines, miscommunications or communications about certain guidelines that were changing daily and they still really are, but I felt like having someone to vent about stuff that was changing was very helpful. So I again want to thank you for that. And I think that it helped me just advocate for what was going around in my situation. So thank you for that. Joe: Yeah, I'm glad that we connected because though there were three doctors in my practice, there was a time where we were either not working in the office at all or we were all remote and not really even seeing each other. And then at some point, yeah, there was an isolation, even though the physicians and medical staff. And so I think though it feels like I helped you, you secretly helped me kind of realize that I was doing some of the right things or thinking of the right things or I wasn't kind of off base thinking about the same things that you were thinking. And I may have told you yeah, you're right. But I might have also been secretly questioning it too. So I think, like you said, kind of connecting is definitely powerful. And I can't even take credit for all of that because though I was doing the family medicine in Dracut, I was also blessed to be a part of the East Boston clinic and some of the doctors there are also very amazing and they do different things. And so one of the doctors I worked with there, he gets deployed for disasters. And so he had gotten actually deployed from our pediatric kind of practice there to the very, very first COVID response unit in California when they had the cruise ship and they had 300 patients and they had no place to put these people. Kim and his crew went out there. So he had already been in the thick of it. I think that was December maybe 2019 or something. So he had already been in the thick of it and he came back and then I just remember learning so much from him and then thinking, okay, you have to be organized, you do have to have protocols, and you do need certain things. You need PPE, you need testing, and whether you can get those things or not, or if people are going to support you, you actually do need it. So advocating for those things, super important. And maybe you couldn't get everything you wanted. We couldn't get any N95 masks, but the other doctor that was in the practice had had the forethought of buying them. So we actually bought our own. And they weren't that great really, but they worked. And then, strangely enough, we were able to repair them. So I actually did a lot of glue gunning for several months of the masks because I didn't have another one. So it's kind of exciting in some ways to make things work, right? Ely: Yes. And being in medicine during the pandemic really made us either just dig our heels in and say, we're staying, we've got this, we have to do this, we have to do something. Whether it is in actually facing COVID patients in the hospital or out in the field, so to speak, in outpatient field of we have to deliver care, whether that it was telemedicine or in office eventually, and how we're we going to be able to do that and getting those PPE, for those listening, personal protective equipment. I think now we probably know that that's probably colloquial more so than just a medical term, but yeah, we have come a long way. And then to really sit and talk with you now about, man, that was some tough times over the last couple of years specifically. I'm listening to your story. I'm really curious and very enthralled with your development of your practice, but also just knowing what we have shared together in our health system with what we went through in the last two years. That was a lot. And it's still really tough. So I'm glad we're, we're still going, but it is difficult. Are you feeling the same way about that? Joe: Well, it's very much a people profession and it's a caring profession, and I think we get energy off of each other. So your excitement, enthusiasm, and even your positive feedback helps to really motivate me and other people. And so I think that was one of the really exciting things about the pandemic. Sure, I could probably look back and have a lot of mixed feelings about different things, but I think one of the things that was really amazing was the administration kind of apparatus really froze up. And the clinical people, we basically had to rise up because it was either we were going to just stay home during the pandemic or we were going to step up and figure out... Honestly, the choice was close down the practice and maybe we'll open up in a few months or we're going to figure out a way to reopen and serve our patients. So that was the choice, and that was really the clinical leadership. A hundred percent. We even developed how we were going to screen patients and then for the limited testing initially what we were going to do. And then as testing became more available, what were we going to do, what questions we were going to ask patients, when were they going to be permitted in the office? All that stuff we had to figure out and then we just did it. So thought that was really exciting actually. So I guess to answer your question, compared to sometimes when you feel really just maybe you're not making a difference, this period has kind of felt like more like we're making a difference. So things do kind of get tiring, the electronic medical systems can get tiring and charting, and there are some mundane things. And I think also the other thing is the more that we're in charge, I think of the healthcare system, and even simple things like how we're going to do our schedule, it's really empowering. I guess that's some of the things that came out of it. Ely: Thank you for that perspective, because that learning by doing is precisely why I chose family medicine. And really the impetus for me to be just actively doing in medicine was why I then pursued a career in medicine. And so just to be reminded of that is exactly what we are doing. This is our calling to do it, and we are here to serve. And as difficult as it is, that's what we do and we do it the best. And yes, leadership comes in all form, including administration, and there's certainly guidelines and rules that we may admonish at times, but really it's an honor and our privilege to be able to help others and live out the dream we all had of becoming physicians and being able to realize that in the work that we do. So thanks. Joe: You're welcome. And it did really feel like patients really did need us. So for two years, there were times where we're running all kinds of tests for coronavirus, then helping patients with, are you going to be able to work? And for how long? And who's going to write those letters? And then when can you go back and well, maybe you're not actually doing all that well, so maybe we should run x-rays and labs and send you to the hospital and now working with some of these other therapeutics and whatnot. So yeah, I think there's a lot of components where the family medicine, you can really just jump right in. Yeah, you're right. And then you're also right too, where it's not all rosy. There are a lot of things that can get in between those things that we really want to do for patients and how we want to feel about our calling. Ely: It's not all rosy, but then again, really, I welcome the challenge. If I had to go back into where our education had formed us at Holy Cross, the challenges that we had in terms of asking the question, and this is really for me, formed from this first year program that is now the Montserrat program that I was part of. But this question of how then shall we live in this world of COVID there are constant changes and rules, how then shall we live and then dot, dot, dot as physicians, as humans, as a mother, as a father. So I think it really is a unique way of looking at where we are through the lens of having a Holy Cross Jesuit education. Joe: Absolutely. There are so many experiences during the time there that totally prepares you for a career in medicine, in family medicine, or even just caring for people. There's so many things. The list is just endless of events and experiences for sure. I had what they call a SPUD... suburban, I'm not sure of all the acronyms there. Ely: Program for Urban Development something. Joe: We had so much fun, we did so many different things. And I just remember taking him to the... I think it's the pub there where there's the bowling alley. We had a bowling alley on campus, we used to do that a lot and other fun events. But yeah, there was just a lot of good experiences. One of the things that I think was also really excellent too was I went for one of the breaks at the Appalachia Mountain. I don't know if that was going on when you were there. So I went to Kentucky Mountain Housing and that was I think about 10 days. And so that was really amazing experience. So not only were we serving others, and then we were building some houses up in Appalachia in Kentucky, but we had to work together as a team. So that was probably one of the early experiences of really team building. So we had several bands, I don't even know how many were in each band, 10 or 12 people in the band. And basically we were responsible for the budget and getting all our stuff and then getting there. So we had to meet in Virginia or something and then continue on. So I just remember we had to decide who was going to drive and when and what shifts, and then how we were going to do our meals and who was going to cook it and when and who was going to clean up, and then who was going to do what kind of jobs on the site there. So that was really amazing experience. And then of course, interacting with people in Appalachia and helping them build houses and learning about their life experiences was, I think that's obviously a really amazing experience. And it's very, very similar to being a physician, except not building a house typically, but you're interacting with people and connecting with them where they are. So that was definitely a formative experience and I'm really grateful I was able to do that. Ely: What I want to ask you, because now you're in a position of having one of your kids going to start at Holy Cross, do you have any certain expectations for her experience at Holy Cross? Joe: Yeah, no, thank you for mentioning that. Yeah, Olivia will be a freshman this fall, and she plans on the bio pre-med track or health professions track. And so yeah, super excited for her. I'm overjoyed. For both of my children, I often brought them to different Holy Cross events. And for Olivia, we did the move in together. Well, not her move in, but we helped the students move in about five years ago. And then we've done several Holy Cross cares days, and then we've gone to reunions or football games or things. So I was always hopeful that she would have an interest and since I've been there a million years ago, the campus, it changed so much. They've just added so many wonderful things and buildings and upgraded just everything. So I was more than excited for her to consider it. And I'm really hopeful that she has a lot of the experiences that I had or even more. And so what I had wanted for her is not just go someplace and just do science, just be in the lab, just doing science by yourself, with your head down. I really wanted for her to have a real well-rounded experience and really develop other parts of her person as well. And I really wanted that for her. So I'm really hopeful that she sees it that way too. And she's very interested in the science building there. So we had to go look during all of her tours, specifically at the science buildings, even though lots of campuses in the United States are nice, the science building may not be nice. It may not be where they focus. So we went there and the newly kind of renamed Fauci Center definitely looked like it had gotten a lot of attention and would be a good place to learn. So yeah, I'm just really hopeful that she may find experiences like I did, or even different ones, even different ones. I was on the campus ministry there. And I found that to be really amazing, the 10 o'clock masses. And I walked on the football team for two years and was in a great dorm and had a lot of great experiences and a lot of great memories and friendships. Yeah, so I was hoping that she would get a lot of those experiences. So can I ask you about your recent career situation? Ely: Oh, sure. Joe: Because you're making some changes. Ely: Yes. So I would have to say the challenges of COVID and the challenges of parenthood, specifically motherhood, have put my focus on how to best be at home and do the work that I do. So being in the office, in the clinic, taking care of patients is truly rewarding. And I wouldn't change the opportunity for the world. But moving forward, I think I needed to step out of that in clinic role. And so now I've chosen a path to do telemedicine, and I'm very excited about developing my role as a communicator on the phone or by video and listening to patients. And that role won't change, but how I listen and how I engage with patients will be a little bit different and I'll have to hone in those skills. So I am looking forward to it. And I have a few weeks off before then. Joe: Well, I'm excited for you. So we've almost followed the same pathway, but now you're going a different pathway, because we both went to Holy Cross and we both went to New Hampshire Dartmouth residency and we both were urgent care in Merrimack Valley and Primary Care. But now you're going a different paths. Ely: Yes. Well, the zigzags of our paths have crossed many times in one way or another, and I'm sure they'll continue to cross, and hopefully that will continue. Joe: No, I think it's good 'cause I think our energy kind of feeds off of each other and our experiences or even just sometimes questioning kind of feeds off each other. And I think it's really positive. And I find that as I'm getting older and I actually think about what makes me tick, I think interacting with doctors and nurse practitioners and physicians assistants in the course of doing your work is extremely rewarding. And I really enjoy it. And so I do a lot of work in East Boston and a lot of times in the emergency room, and there's several doctors or some doctors and nurse practitioners, and I never really can really put my finger on why I enjoyed it, but I just really enjoyed being together with four or five doctors. It's amazing. You can talk to someone who has major differences in their life experiences or the clinical experiences, and you can just talk to them like right there, hey, I'm doing this for this patient, and what do you do? It's just amazing wealth. It really can help to develop just your satisfaction. But I do want to mention something, and I don't really know how to say it, but I think you brought up and there are, I think, unique challenges to being a male physician and a female physician. And I think with COVID and the additional responsibilities, it's really complicated. You could speak to this more than I, but I think as a female physician or a female nurse, you're also expected to take care of your kids when they're sick, which they're sick a lot with the COVID or not COVID or finding out if they have COVID. So what I've also observed is that the intensity of the responsibility is huge for women in clinical positions, and COVID just has made that so much more apparent and intense. So I understand maybe why you're making some changes there, but obviously you know more than I how that all works. Ely: I really appreciate the acknowledgement of the role of mothers in medicine and fathers have equally distinct roles in managing family life. So for some reason, for me, it has fallen on me to really be at home when they are sick or in quarantine. And it's something that I don't obviously mind doing, I love my children, and I just want to be able to show up for my family, myself and my patients equally as strong. And in my most recent role, I wasn't always feeling like I could do that and for one way or another. And it's not the fault of the system or the role itself, it just happened to play out that way. However, I did find some agency in looking at other options and voila, COVID opened a lot of doors to telemedicine and other opportunities for physicians to practice. So that was a fringe benefit, if I could even say a benefit of the pandemic was some doors that opened. So I felt enough agency to be able to walk through that door, and that was not because I was suffering, that was because there was a lot of strength that came from learning from my colleagues in my previous role. So I have a lot of good feelings for where I came from and a lot of excitement for where I'm going. Joe: I know, I think it's really wonderful and fantastic, and I'm glad that you acknowledged the unique pressures or stresses that you've felt 'cause I don't think they're unique to yourself. And so I'm glad that you've articulated that. And what I always think is by the time you've become a doctor and you've done all the amazing steps to get there, and then you're connecting with patients, to feel like for some reason you can't do that work because of whatever, because of schedule, because you want to also be there for your family or whatever systems things, and to think that maybe someone might actually leave the career altogether, it's really upsetting to me because it's usually the people that are the most caring and connected because you've given out so much of your energy and you just realize it's not working out. So kudos to you to try to figure out a way to keep all that amazing energy, like caring for patients. So I'm glad that you've figured out a path. Ely: Thank you. Joe: Yeah, it's exciting. Yeah, because I know you'll be back doing family medicine at some point in person, that's why I'm saying that. Ely: Yes. Well, my roots in community are very strong. And so to really hear your story of community building, it restores my faith in the progress of medicine and in the intensity of how we serve each other. So again, I cannot say thank you enough. Joe: Well, thank you to you too. Ely: The way I would love to close the interview is to say one thing that you are really excited about the future of family medicine. And I think I'm excited about the continued relationship building and the connection with colleagues as well as patients because if we are stronger as providers, as physicians, then I think that really only encourages our patients to become stronger and to have their agency to take care of their health. And really healthy communities, healthy families are what the drive to family medicine is. And so I'm really excited about that, that relationship is going to continue and get even stronger. How about you? Joe: I think you're right about that. And in the perspective of my path is that training in Boston in the '90s, family medicine was not at all desirable. And so you had to actually leave the city at the time to even seek out the specialty. But in time now, family medicine's very important everywhere, including in the city, including at the academic centers. And with my family medicine background, working in the ER, I do work with the pediatric group in Boston. I do family medicine in the clinic. I've also done urgent care and I feel equally at home in all those settings. And that's really nice. And I think connecting with the patients, I do feel like they actually do need us to know about a lot of things there. There's so much more complexity to health, and it's good to be able to do that over a wide range of health. And the other thing I like too about family medicine is we don't always have to make health issues always necessarily bad. We can talk about them as things that are opportunities to improve and maybe even opportunities to work on holistic health maintenance. So yeah, I think there is a lot of positivity to the future. We're going through an electronic medical record transition to Epic, which was really challenging. But I've used Epic in other locations and I'm finding that it, to some level is restoring my joy of medicine because the system is very good and allows me to actually complete functions rather than having the functions kind of dictate my whole day. So I think that hopefully technology will also help, at least the technology part that should be in place to help us. So I'm optimistic hopefully. Ely: That's a wonderful place to be optimistic and also carries us into the future. Maura Sweeney: That's our show. I hope you enjoyed hearing about just one of the many ways that Holy Cross alumni have been inspired by the mission to be people for and with others. A special thanks to today's guests and everyone at Holy Cross who has contributed to making this podcast a reality. If you or someone would like to be featured on this podcast, then please send us an email at alumnicareers.holycross.edu. If you like what you hear, then please leave us a review. This podcast is brought to you by the Office of Alumni Relations at the College of the Holy Cross. You can subscribe for future episodes wherever you find your podcast. I'm your host, Maura Sweeney, and this is Mission-Driven. In the words of Saint Ignatius of Loyola, "Now go forth and set the world on fire." Theme music composed by Scott Holmes, courtesy of freemusicarchive.org.
Joe Barb is Executive Director and Founder of LGBTQ+ Family Connections Center. They have a mission to strengthen and empower all youth, however they identify, to overcome obstacles by providing housing, supportive counseling, community education, and advocacy. Victoria and Chad talk with Joe about identifying needs for the center, his own lived experience and connection to the LGBTQ+ community, and deciding what services to provide and evaluating which are most impactful. LGBTQ+ Family Connections Center (https://lgbtqfamilyconnectionscenter.net/) Follow the LGBTQ+ Family Connections Center on Twitter (https://twitter.com/center_lgbtq), Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/lgbtqfamilyconnectionscenter/), Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/LGBTQFamilyConnectionCenter), or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/lgbtq-family-connections-center/). Follow Joe on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/joe-barb-978ba0204/). Follow thoughtbot on Twitter (https://twitter.com/thoughtbot) or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/150727/). Become a Sponsor (https://thoughtbot.com/sponsorship) of Giant Robots! Transcript: CHAD: This is The Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Chad Pytel. VICTORIA: And I'm your other host, Victoria Guido. And with us today is Joe Barb, Executive Director and Founder of LGBTQ+ Family Connections Center, with a mission to strengthen and empower all youth however they identify to overcome obstacles by providing housing, supportive counseling, community education, and advocacy. Joe, thank you for joining us. JOE: Thank you. I appreciate it. VICTORIA: Wonderful. So you started the center over two years ago. If you could go back in time and give yourself advice to when you were first starting out, what would you tell yourself? JOE: Wow, very similar to for-profit companies, having the tenacity to keep knocking on doors, never accepting no for an answer, and understanding that tenacity is everything. Nothing happens without continuing the fight every day. VICTORIA: Great. And how did you first identify that need for the center? JOE: A million years ago, when I was a late teenager, my parents had a pastor in their church suggest to them that in order to bring me back to God and back to their church, that they should cut me off financially, you know, I was a young freshman in college prod me in that direction. So my parents took the advice, and I found myself in my second semester of college with no funding. The check for the second semester had been canceled from my family, and I didn't know what to do. So I called a friend in South Dakota that we had met on vacation. And she said, "You know what? I have an apartment building here. I just had an apartment become vacant. Why don't you move to South Dakota, and then we'll work on everything else?" So that lived experience kind of proded the whole thing. And then meeting the youth who had been displaced from home for being a trans youth caused the rest. CHAD: Well, I'm really sorry for that personal experience that you had. But it's pretty powerful and that you've gone on to help others in similar situations is really admirable. JOE: Yeah, it's been quite a journey. And my lived experience, honestly, I was with stability within 24 hours. The more I became comfortable and complacent in my life and then met somebody who wasn't; it brought me back to that. And then just looking at statistics, looking at how youth end up in a houseless situation created something in me that I had to address. VICTORIA: So you had your own lived experience and that connection to your community which helped you identify that need and start out on the center. Did you find there were a lot of resources for building nonprofits? JOE: There isn't. And it's really something that when you go into it, you believe that when you create a nonprofit and you finish that application, you send it into the IRS, and you get approval, that you put a great idea out there and that the community will respond and that everyone will immediately jump on it and say, "You know what? You're right. This is needed. We need housing. We need to make sure that youth are safe." And that's not the way it works. It doesn't work that way at all. It's a lot of connections and community and getting involved and putting the statistics and the numbers out there so that people are aware of it. But it's mostly connecting the stories. The more youth that I've met and worked with and connected them to a story and told their story, the more people respond. VICTORIA: Right. And so, what have you found to be the most impactful in sharing that story and in managing that content to get to the right people who can help you with this need? JOE: The most impactful part is people just aren't aware. We all know that there's a homeless population. No matter where you live, there's a homeless population, and it impacts communities. But what we aren't aware of is we all typically believe that the government is funding these things and it's being taken care of and that maybe those people just chose homelessness and don't realize that the resources are very limited. Until those resources are able to show a data of need, that person may not be counted that you saw on the corner. CHAD: You're pretty active socially online. I think where I first saw you was through a mutual connection on LinkedIn, and your posts started to be in my feed, and I liked and subscribed, I guess. How much of the awareness that you're putting out there is coming from social networks and online versus in-person and local communities? JOE: I'd say it's probably a good mixture of both. Locally, obviously, I'm deeply involved with other service providers, and I'm involved with local government. I'm on any kind of board that you can think of that impacts youth homelessness. So there's that within my community but having those LinkedIn...just this weekend, we had our pride, and at our pride, someone walked over to me, started talking at our booth. And he said, "Well, I know you from LinkedIn. CHAD: [chuckles] JOE: I noticed your picture with Sylvan Lake behind you from your LinkedIn, and I just had to come over to meet you and say hi." And I thought, how impactful is social media that someone who lives in Florida happened to be in South Dakota came to pride and recognized me from a picture? VICTORIA: Wow. Yeah, it makes our world feel a little smaller sometimes, doesn't it? JOE: Absolutely. VICTORIA: And the problem of youth homelessness and LGBTQ+ homelessness is very complex. And I think other nonprofit founders might be interested in how you decide what services you're going to provide and how you evaluate to see which ones are the most impactful. JOE: We did things kind of backwards. So I formed the board of directors, and typically what happens with the board of directors is they want to become your advisors. And I thought these people have great professional experience. We have doctors; we have PhDs, we have scientists literally on our board. And those people don't have the lived experience. So I thought, who do we go to to develop programming and support for people that are in need? And the answer was glaringly clear; it had to be the people who were in need. So I formed a Youth Action Board with the State Continuum of Care. And it comprises of youth ages 13 to 24 who have lived experience. We keep it at 66% have to have lived experience. And technically, most of them have even much more than that. But we connect with them through service providers who assist youth. And those were the people that we used to formulate what they needed, decide what was most beneficial to help them during vulnerable points, and then help them get out of situations. VICTORIA: Right. And I think that user experience, that experience bringing that into the products and services that you're creating, just makes a lot of sense for us, and that's what we bring into our design as well. JOE: Yeah, I mean, we do it in almost every industry. Whatever you create, whatever product you create, whether it's something tangible that you hold or whether it's a service, you bring in a test group. And that test group typically is people that you're seeking to utilize or buy your service or your product. And in doing that, we end up developing a better product. It's the same thing with a nonprofit. We had to get the voice of those who we would be serving in order to make sure that we were doing what they needed, not what we thought as professional people or personal opinions was the way forward. CHAD: Was there something as you were talking to people and learning that surprised you? JOE: Probably the same thing that everyone develops is an opinion of homelessness. We all think that people that experience homelessness it's typically through some self-inflicted issue; typically, drugs and alcohol come to mind and some type of cause that brought you there that you had influence on. And I've learned that most of the kids that we serve had no influence on their homelessness other than to be born where they were or to who they were born. A lot of our youth are coming from, oh, they've lived in shelters, or foster care, or aged out of foster care. It just changed my dichotomy of thinking that we would be serving people that had addiction problems or alcohol problems when in case of the youth...currently we're at, I think 68 youth served. I've only met one youth that had a previous addiction. CHAD: It's really just that lack of a safety net. And all it takes is your family not supporting you and not having a safety net. JOE: Absolutely. And that's just it. You said it very well. Most of us, when we have an incident in our life that we need some help because there's a vulnerability, we have people around us that we go back to. We have either family or close friends that we can say, "You know what? I lost my job. I need a little bit of help here," or "This medical incident happened, and could you assist us?" And we get a response from our family or friends that typically is supportive and helps us find a way. A lot of youth, especially youth that experience homelessness, don't have that connection to family. So that's where we need to bring in community to support them. VICTORIA: Right. And do you find there are unique challenges to supporting youth experiencing homelessness in the Midwest in South Dakota where you are versus in more urban areas? JOE: Absolutely. Carl Siciliano is my TA advisor. He created the Ali Forney Center in New York, which is the largest housing support for homeless youth for...they specifically only target LGBTQ youth in the United States. And in talking to him and in looking at our demographics, it was very different. For them, people in larger cities will just seek out their services. They learn about it word of mouth. They find out that there's a shelter in place. Here, our homeless population is much more hidden. And typically, what happens here is youth will gather together. And it'll be six or eight of them who will become friendly, and they will try to support each other by one of them will get a hotel, and then six or eight of them will live together. Or they're doubled up in one person's apartment, six or eight people live in somebody else's apartment, which truly isn't housed because it's not their place. And they try to support each other. So they're very hidden in our communities. CHAD: It's unfortunate there's a lot of stuff happening in the U.S. and worldwide with legislation being passed now anti-transgender. I think South Dakota was the first state in the country to pass an anti-transgender bill this year. Are there particular challenges to doing the work that you do in today's climate? JOE: Accessing mental health services, we had to overcome that obstacle by forming relationships with counseling services so that we could make sure that any youth, whether they were insured or underinsured, or uninsured, could immediately access mental health. And that took quite a bit of work on our part in order to make that happen. It should be easy. It should be easy to access mental health. And that's probably one of the biggest challenges because I can stabilize anyone tomorrow with either a hotel, or a house, or an apartment. But if you don't have mental health to help with what got you there, you're still living in trauma. If you're living in trauma, how can you focus on things like going back to school or having a career or what even tomorrow means for you? Because you're living in trauma today. So, absolutely, to answer your question, mental health. CHAD: And is that a matter of providers not wanting to provide services or not being able to pay for it? JOE: Not being able to pay for it. There are things that you can access if you're uninsured or underinsured if you meet the guidelines to get into mental health access. The problem with that is if you need to help today, that's a process. We wanted to skip the process. We wanted to make sure that if you walked into our drop-in center today that this afternoon I can have you with a therapist of your choice. MID-ROLL AD: Now that you have funding, it's time to design, build, and ship the most impactful MVP that wows customers now, and can scale in the future. thoughtbot Liftoff brings you the most reliable cross-functional team of product experts to mitigate risk and set you up for long-term success. As your trusted, experienced technical partner, we'll help launch your new product and guide you into a future-forward business that takes advantage of today's new technologies and agile best practices. Make the right decisions for tomorrow today. Get in touch at thoughtbot.com/liftoff. CHAD: You have a website. You collect donations online. And we definitely want to link all of that stuff in the show notes. It will be there, and I hope people contribute. But when it comes to the tactical stuff on the product and business side, are there particular tools or resources you were able to draw upon to put together online donations, the website, that kind of thing? JOE: As far as platforms, is that what you're asking? CHAD: Yeah. JOE: There are some great platforms that have been built specifically for nonprofits in order to help get the word out and help fundraise. That for us hasn't been the primary. In this type of nonprofit, typically, most of our donations are not donations or grants. They're things that we...like, I just spent two years on a grant that is quite substantial. But it was two years of work, literally 40 hours a week for two years. So there are those tools, there's the GoFundMe, and there are all kinds of tools for sharing on social media in order to get people to donate. They're great, but you have to have a large circle in order to utilize those. And you have to have people that are willing to do that as well. So I don't think we have the tool that's the best tool yet socially. CHAD: What would something that was better look like for you? JOE: It's more getting corporations and businesses and private companies involved in what a lot of companies are already doing. They will seek from their employees giving initiatives. And they will seek information to what does the company want to support as a community? Because that's what their employees care about. I think those things have a more sustainable development and a more sustainable footprint for nonprofits that when organizations get involved that are private and then offer to their employees a way to donate, that works best. CHAD: Yeah. For thoughtbot, to honor Pride Month, we collected a series of donations that we were going to make. And there was team suggestion...because we have teams all over the place, we wanted to have a local impact. And then when it came to actually doing those donations, I think we had 10 to 20 organizations that we wanted to donate, not a huge amount of money to each one but hopefully, it makes a difference. And the way that we needed to do that a person at thoughtbot needed to go and either find the donate link, the place to do it, and some of them didn't even have it. And we wanted to, you know, maybe it's a place in Brazil or something, and we need to get them the money somehow, wiring it or something. And so that was a fair amount of manual work to figure that out and then to make the payments. JOE: And I think because it goes along with we're learning as organizations that we have to take care of the social and emotional part of employees just as well as we do the work environment. It's part of the work environment. So I think that that kind of goes back to HR, which is my background. HR should look at those things in advance and find local nonprofits to support local ideas and then maybe some national ones as well. We all know of The Trevor Project and some of the great broader campaigns that do a lot of really good work. And have that ready so that when somebody joins your company you can show them and say, "Hey, by the way, these are some local organizations that we can do a payroll deduction for if you like, or we can buy annual contributions," and let the employees see that the company cares about the local area and also cares about things on a national platform that impact employees. VICTORIA: I love that. I think that's a great way to involve corporations in giving back and connecting employees to their local communities and the local groups that need support. Is there anything else that you want to tell our listeners in order to support the LGBTQ+ Center or in general? JOE: The majority of our youth are LGBTQ+. And that's because statistically, across the United States, the majority of youth seeking housing services unaccompanied are LGBTQ+, up to 40%. But we don't turn away any youth. It doesn't matter how they identify. It doesn't matter what their circumstances are. The only thing that we ask is if you're telling us you're homeless, then we're going to assist in that. We do have age criteria of 16 to 24 because that matches the federal guidelines for the programming that we're in through federal dollars. So other than that, I mean, we still would help anyone of any age, but that's the big thing to know is that we help any youth however they identify. And what could listeners do? Obviously, on our website or look into your community as well and see what is a support in your area and find something that you can contribute to. VICTORIA: That sounds great. Thank you so much. Do you have any questions for me or Chad? JOE: I think that what you're doing is great. I like that you are thinking of nonprofits as a company as well because a lot of people view it differently when it's actually a company. You have to figure out a way to sustain funding and bring money in just like any other organization in order to do the work. CHAD: Yeah, I think that's a common misconception that people have. And I'm sure it's not the case with you and your organization. But I like to remind people that nonprofit really just means that it can't show a profit. So there are lots of nonprofits out there that just end up spending all of the money that they have. That is really also technically what it means sometimes. JOE: And you bring up a great point. There's an IRS website to look up any nonprofit organization, and you can look at how they spend their money. I do that all the time before I make a donation. Because we've all heard those stories of CEOs, who make 30 million a year or whatever crazy number. You can always look up any organization and see how they spend their money. CHAD: Yeah, that's a really good tip for people to do before you get involved with an organization with donations or your time and really making sure it matches your values and that kind of thing. VICTORIA: Great. All right. I think we're about at time. So with that, I will wrap us up and let everyone know you can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. CHAD: If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. You can find me on Twitter at @cpytel. VICTORIA: And you can find me on Twitter @victori_ousg. This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. CHAD: Thanks for listening and see you next time. ANNOUNCER: This podcast was brought to you by thoughtbot. thoughtbot is your expert design and development partner. Let's make your product and team a success. Special Guest: Joe Barb.
Lying next to the River Avon just inside the Cotswolds, Avoncliff Wood is no ordinary wood. The site hosts one of the biggest trials in the UK to find biodegradable alternatives to plastic tree guards. As if that wasn't enough, it's also a living laboratory, revealing how ash dieback will really affect nature. Site manager Joe gives us a special behind the scenes tour to learn more. We also meet volunteer wardens Kay and James, and catch up with TV presenter Alice Beer who lives nearby. Don't forget to rate us and subscribe! Learn more about the Woodland Trust at woodlandtrust.org.uk Transcript Voiceover: You are listening to Woodland Walks, a podcast for the Woodland Trust presented by Adam Shaw. We protect and plant trees for people to enjoy, to fight climate change and to help wildlife thrive. Adam: Well, I've changed trains at Bath Spa for what appears to be a very small train which is taking me to Avoncliffe. Now, in fact, the train conductor has told me the platform is so short when I get there only one door is going to open. He came through asking “Is anybody getting off?” and I'm the only one, the only one. Well, I have to tell you, the station here is straight out of a 1930s style Agatha Christie film, that's what it screams to me. Beautiful signs, beautiful flowers, the River Avon just almost next door to the station, a great looking pub and down at the end of the platform one single man who I'm assuming is Joe Middleton with the Woodland Trust, site manager here and the guy who's going to show me around. Joe: So, welcome to Avoncliffe Wood in the Avon Valley just in between Bath and Bradford-on-Avon. We just crossed over the famous Avoncliffe Aqueduct and just followed the River Avon until we hit even Avoncliffe Wood which carpets the side of the valley across this area of the Cotswolds AONB, Area of Outstanding Natural Beauty, right at the southern end of the Cotswold AONB. Adam: There's very little woodlands right here, so what's going on in this first field? Joe: So, we're just at the edge of our woodland creation. So we bought 20 hectares, about 40 football pitches, of ancient woodland – untouched for generations – and to buffer that, to try and expand carbon storage and fight climate change and the ecological decline we're seeing we actually bought another 10 hectares, another 20 football pitches, worth of agricultural fields essentially and meadows which were very intensively grazed and we've planted that up with over 5,000 trees to try and get the next generation of trees in here. Adam: Wow, okay so shall we go through, have a look? Thank you. Joe: So just next to us as you can hear the birds singing away, there are blackbirds, robins and blackcaps in there. There's one acre, here, just on the right-hand side, which was actually planted up 25 years ago by a neighbour. So, the very small one acre square now 25 years later is teeming with you know 30-40 foot birch trees, willows, hazels and hawthorns, full of cherry blossom and hawthorn blossom, and birds nesting, tweeting, and insects buzzing all around us! It's quite rare these days! So hopefully we think everything we planted up here, all 5,000 trees would look like that in 25 years. A proper young woodland. Adam: And you've clearly, I mean, they're not uniformly planted so there's a big patch in the middle which you've got nothing and they seem to be done in clumps, so why have you done it like that? Joe: Do you want to know what that patch in the middle is? That's a sledging lane. Right well so we carried out community consultation when we first bought the woodland. We asked all the locals, we said look there's this really lovely kind of big expanse of fields all around the wood, we want to buy it, we want it to, you know, fight climate change, we want to try and do our bit for wildlife. And they said whatever you do leave us a sledging lane because when it snows here this hill is perfect for tobogganing down. Adam: laughs you see I thought it was going to be for some really technical reason! You need to do that for a very specific reason, I didn't realise it was gonna be sledges. Joe: There are also wide rides, you know, big areas that people can walk through. We've created a really good path network in here as well in some areas and natural regeneration so there are areas unplanted and there are areas purely for tobogganing fun in the middle of snowy winters. Adam: And why not? It's very important. Now, the thing that we can see in this immediate field is a lot of tree guards and well I'm also standing by a little sign which says biodegradable tree shelter. I always call them tree guards, but this was called tree shelter. Now that is not by coincidence. The tree guards are a huge issue, aren't they? Joe: Yeah, I mean with governments pledging to plant millions if not globally billions of trees to fight climate, you know hold onto carbon, stop floods, we have to be able to do it without using oil-based plastics. For the last 35 years people have just, every tree that's gone in you know, not every one, but most trees that've gone in have been planted with a giant plastic tree guard which doesn't biodegrade, it litters, it causes microplastics, and people… Adam: And are they reusable those plastic guards? Joe: They are to a certain degree, they're not easy to recycle, there are some better recycling schemes now just starting. But actually, probably one in three are reusable. But a lot of places are too far to go and get them, people don't bother they get left and derelict and are expensive to go and collect every single one, especially when you're planting hundreds of thousands. So the biodegradable alternative is the absolute key. Find something that naturally, you know, biodegrades away back into the soil, doesn't harm anything, it doesn't use oil. Adam: Right, I'm just going to go up to… So, this is a biodegradable one? Joe: Exactly. Adam: It looks sort of yellowish and quite canvas-like but it's very it's very firm, it doesn't feel, I mean that feels a sturdy old thing this. Joe: Yeah so, we've got 5,000 trees we put in. We are using some old recycled plastic ones, so we've been given a few, but actually we've got 16 different types of biodegradable alternatives to plastic here. So, they range from cardboard, you know, made from paper or mulch to biodegradable plastics, which the jury is out on at the moment, to actually resins and oils from things like cashew nut shells and pine resin. We've got a train coming past us! Train noise Two and a half years ago, when we planted the 5,000 trees in all these biodegradable guards, we launched something called Big Climate Fightback, a big Woodland Trust campaign to bring people out to help plant trees and do their bit. And actually, we ended up with over 250 people arriving one Saturday – spades in hand – on the trains in all the train stations. And the people in Bath, and Bristol and Bradford-on-Avon must have thought “what on earth is going on?”, with over 250 people arriving with spades on the platforms. And they came in here, they planted trees en masse – school kids, families, local groups. Everyone came here to try and plant trees and with that we, you know, told people about the problem of plastics and we've basically now got one of the biggest sites in the UK for trialling an alternative to plastic – to try and protect these trees so they get to five, seven years to get to a good height where they're no longer susceptible to browsing by deer, by rabbits, by voles, which is the main reason the shelters and guards are here to protect them. Adam: And correct me if I'm wrong but there is a sort of school of thought saying well don't use any guards. I mean it's now sort of established practice that you've got to use a guard otherwise the tree won't survive, but there is this sort of vague thought we never used to use guards in the distant past, so why have we suddenly got obsessed with them? Joe: I mean deer numbers are higher than they've ever been, it's a huge amount of browsing by deer with no natural predators, so it's complicated, that is the simplest answer, but putting up a giant 6-foot fence is probably you know the other solution which is in a lot of cases, depending on size, it can be much more economic, more practical. Very small areas – probably not massive areas, but medium sized – deer fencing is probably the answer, but then you've still got rabbits and voles you've got to fence out. So, doing nothing, over-planting, natural regeneration – we've got an area if you look up to the edge of the woodland we've left the buffer zone of about 20-30 metres around lots of this woodland, all around it, with nothing, we've just fenced it off and we're just going to allow the woodland to expand – every one of those berries and those nuts and seeds that drops into the ground will hopefully just have a, you know, wild natural generation. Like Knepp with a huge rewilding – that hope of what happens there doesn't happen as easily here but can take a long time. Hopefully that will establish woodland itself, but it may take 50 years. At the moment we've got a climate emergency on us and amongst us, so we have to do something now so planting trees is a very good quick solution. Adam: A huge issue because if we are planting for ecological reasons what we don't want to do is every tree comes with its own polluting plastic. I mean that's not the future. So, the answer to that question may well lie in the thousands of experiments you're carrying out in this field we're standing in. Joe: Absolutely. Adam: Right, well I've stopped us walking. We better… I better get my steps in. So, let's carry on. Where are we heading to now? Joe: So, we're gonna go and find our two volunteer wardens in a minute. Adam: So, we've got two volunteers hard at work. I can see just up the hill a bit. Joe: So, this is James and Kay who are both our two volunteer wardens. They've been working now replacing broken, rotted, fallen biodegradable tree guards, replacing the trees as they die as well, and these two have been working hard to help keep an eye on them for the last few years for us. Adam: It's got them hard at work! Joe: They are incredibly hard at work. Hey guys how you doing? Kay and James: Alright? Hi! Hello. Adam: They do have you hard at work! So Kay and James, so first of all before we get to what you're actually doing, why have you been doing it? What's your interest? Why did you volunteer to do all of this? Kay: Well, you've been a volun… a member of the Woodland Trust for about 25 years. James: Well, it's about 35 years now. Kay: Since this is really on our doorstep, this is a perfect opportunity to get really involved with the Woodland Trust. Adam: James, I mean, you've been a Woodland Trust member for a very long time. And, ah the debate around trees has changed enormously. Hasn't it? James: It has, and I am glad that people have suddenly valued trees. I was in the military but, before that, I was out of Kent, out near Canterbury and my uncle was a farmer with orchards and basically from the earliest days I knew about the trees, the names of trees. The pollards at the end of the field as windbreaks, the various wetland trees down in the floodplains around the Romney Marsh area. But I already had a fascination for the massive oaks, the spectacular deciduous trees on the horizon I think made this this countryside look like it does, so British, and so English, with these gorgeous round shapes, compared to a lot of conifers you see in all the European places I've been to. Adam: Okay, talk me through a bit about what you're actually doing here – I mean, you know, hammer in hand I can see. Kay: Hammer in hand, we're replacing some of the tubes that haven't stood up to the wind and the rain. We found that circular rather than rectangular and… Adam: works, circular works… Kay: circular works, because otherwise if it's square they act as a flag, especially cardboard ones. When they get wet, they just disintegrate – as you can see there's lots of bare sticks around here, so yeah, we're going through and replacing them with circular ones. Adam: Fantastic, now I know that the local community were very involved with the Trust, sort of when the Trust took over and sort of designed this site. Tell me a bit about what the local community feel. Kay: That was a great day. We had two schools frog marched in, and yeah, with their teachers and staff and they planted the whole area, which was lovely – they were naming the trees as they were planting them. I know the whole village got involved with planting 5,000 trees over a progressive few weekends and subsequently James and I have been replanting the failures. Adam: And James I mean very clear how engaged you are with this sort of issue but to tell me about the feelings then of the local community and what they what they felt when Woodland Trust first came here and how involved others are apart from you two. James: So, I'm very pleased that people are actually accepting, on the whole, that their backyard has been filled with trees and shrubs which are growing up for their children's lifetime. Kay: We have had some objections to this, but they haven't given their reason why. I assume it's because it's used when we do get snow, which is very rare, it's the sledging field. The Woodland Trust have kindly left a gap for sledging but then they moan that the grass is too long so you can't please everyone all of the time. Adam: But when it was first thought about, and I think it's really interesting isn't it, that you say the community are largely behind this, but I think if others are listening to you now where they may be talking about a woodland on their doorstep created by the Woodland Trust or their own sort of organisation – I wonder what people's first reaction, what were their concerns and hesitancies that you heard about that may have been overcome? Kay: People don't like change do they? And at the moment it's, yeah, it doesn't look picture perfect with the stakes and the guards on, but you've got to envisage what it will look like in 10-15 years' time. You've only got to look at the hedgerow, which is behind us now, and at this time of year which is beginning of May, it's absolutely gorgeous. The blossom's out, the fresh burst of the leaf is so colourful and vibrant, what's not to like about having a wood on your doorstep? And we were very lucky. Adam: Okay, well brilliant, well thank you very much. Look I don't want to disturb you anymore but that's brilliant. Thank you very much. Kay: Thank you! Adam: So, we're gonna head up now to the ancient woodland. Now this is certainly unique in any of the Woodland Trust sites I've been to, because normally the Trust actively encourages people to come in, but this is the only site I've been to where the ancient woodland bit you stop people from coming. Oh, look this is… Joe: This is our nifty little fenced area which… Adam: We're going through the barbed wire so just be careful going… So, explain to me why you've unusually actually kept the public out of the ancient woodland. Joe: Ash dieback really is becoming a huge problem across a lot of woodlands I manage. I manage about 30 woods across the West Country and every one of them has large amounts of ash that really grows really well on these sort of limestone soils and in these hills around the Mendips, the Cotswolds. Gosh there's a huge Buzzard just soaring over the edge of the woodland there. So, ash dieback is killing off essentially all our ash trees. Estimates vary at the moment. You know recently it was about 95% and then people said it was around 60%. So, the latest estimate is that about 60% of our ash trees will die over the next 50 years. How fast they die is the worrying thing but when we bought the wood in 2019 ash dieback was blowing across the landscape. It is a fungal disease. It naturally spreads. It came over from Asia originally in infected stock of nursery trees being planted out. So, no one's been able to plant any ash for the last three years. It's now being reported all the way from the east of Great Britain, all the way to the west, every year, until it's spread and spread and spread now our mature ash trees – whether they're in a hedgerow, along roadsides and country lanes, whether they're in woodlands – ash trees are essentially dying en masse, and this is killing off everything that lives and breathes on those ash trees. Adam: And the reason you're keeping the public out is because the trees are dangerous, are they? They might fall? Joe: Yeah exactly, so where you have a path or road or property you have to maintain, you know, what's reasonably practical safety for people to be able to walk under it. We realise if we were to create a load of paths, allow a load of people into now what is a fantastic ancient woodland, but it has never really had any paths in, it's been undisturbed for generations – over 100 years now – we don't think anyone set foot in it. So, we didn't want to create any paths because we didn't want to fell any trees, so we've kept it shut and all the locals have seemed to have bought into that and are really pleased this is just a woodland for wildlife. They're happy enough to walk around the fields where we've created woodland. Adam: And is it also something of a laboratory to see what happens to ash dieback? If you really don't step in and try and do anything? Joe: Exactly yeah, so, in so many woodlands across Britain because of the large amount of public footpaths, people are having to fell for health and safety reasons, so there's not very many examples where if no one goes in and nothing happens, what happens to that wildlife? Does it also dramatic- dramatically decline, with the trees losing? Or are there some winners? So, are there some decay species? Some fungi species? Some insects, beetles that love decay rotting wood that increase? So we don't really know. So, this site we've turned into a living laboratory, this is a unique case of where we are monitoring the species within the wood, how they react to ash dieback over time. Adam: We're now going into the bit of ancient woodland which the public are locked out of and so we have got this big “keep out, closed due to ash dieback” (sign). Joe: You have exclusive access! Adam: Brilliant, now I gotta say, I mean I've got to take a photo of this because this is a sea of amazing plants. I'm really, I want to be careful where I tread, I don't want to disturb anything. Because I'm completely ignorant, what are these plants? Joe: Can you smell it? Adam: Yeah sure, it's extraordinary! Joe: This is wild garlic. Adam: Is that what it is? Joe: Ramsons are all in flower at the moment and now we can see for literally, well, hundreds of metres is the white snowy tops of these wild garlic flowers that are just coming up across the thick green leaves and when there's no path in sight you have to be careful where you tread. So, luckily wild garlic's quite prolific, so we'll tread carefully, but an undisturbed wood looks like this. It's like a sea, or a carpet of sort of snow. Adam: That is extraordinary, isn't it? Yes it is a sea of snow and that's the advantage of actually having undisturbed places. Is that it, I mean, yeah sea is exactly what it looks like. These sort of white foaming tops to the rolling green waves of vegetation. Quite amazing. Joe: All you can make out are the occasional tracks of foxes, badgers, stoats, weasels, that have gone through it, maybe the odd deer as well. But insects seem to be declining catastrophically. The ideal analogy is, you know, people used to drive around even in the 80s and you get windscreens splattered with bugs and insects. It just doesn't happen anymore and that massive decline of insects, it's unknown the reason, it probably doesn't help with, you know, when people are using lots of pesticide sprays across the countryside, along with climate change, but as all those insects decline so do our birds that feed on them, so are our bat species – so they're not fat enough to basically get through the hibernation and then when they come out of hibernation and the young are born there are just not enough insects so they don't make it through the summer essentially, and they don't have another generation that makes it. So, yeah, bat species are declining at the moment, so that's one of the first things we've noticed, and well ash are declining en masse. There were a lot of these species of ash that we're monitoring that are all dying en masse. Adam: I mean so that, I mean, …you're telling me all these terrible things Joe: Yes, I know. Adam: But I mean that's important it's still amazing landscape still isn't it? Joe: Absolutely. Adam: And that's always been true with woodlands. That decay brings its own new life and decaying trees are very important parts the of the ecosystem, but even given all of those challenges that you talk about are there any, are there any high points, any reasons for optimism? Joe: Well, wild garlic's obviously doing really well in this particular wood! But there will be some species that do, really, there will be some species of butterfly that you know do really successfully with the increased amount of light. But one of the best success stories, the best things you can do to feel positive about it is to go back out into those fields, plant the trees, the next generation, so that if some of these woodlands do suffer for whatever reason then we've got far more woodland habitat. We need to increase our woodland cover from about 13% to 20% fast and then if we get 20% – we've got the shrubs, we've got the tree species, got the rewilding areas – to be able to provide those homes for the species that aren't doing so well. That's the key I think is to plant the next generation, get there quickly. Our woodlands have a fantastic history and have been managed over time. This is just the next phase in the management to basically keep an eye and ensure our guardianship secures for that next generation in the next 50-100 years. Adam: Well I'm going to leave Joe to smelling his wild garlic, because TV presenter and journalist Alice Beer, who I used to work with, I know lives not that far from this woodland. Now I know she's out and about today so I'm going to call her on her mobile to discuss what the countryside around here means to her and her family. Okay, so just Alice first of all we should explain a bit about our history, so everybody… Alice: Oh must we tell everybody? Do you think we should? Adam: I think we should share a little bit. I used to open letters on Watchdog which was a massive massive programme at the time and I can't, do you remember how many people watched it? I can't Alice: Well I don't know I'd come to watchdog from That's Life and That's Life, which was before you were born Adam I'm sure, had 15 million viewers in its heyday and I think Watchdog was around 7 million viewers, which now is completely unheard of, but then you know it was just 7 million people watching it and more importantly 7 million people putting pen to paper. No emails, pen to paper, and thank God Adam Shaw was in the post room! Adam: Yes I was opening the 7 million letters with one or two other people and Alice was much more senior, so we would come to pass those stories onto Alice and of course, you are now, what's your official title? Alice: I suppose I'm actually probably daytime television presenter but I'm far too much of a snob to say that! I kind of dip in and out of various things trying to still help the little guy or pass on information. Adam: You have a regular spot on a very big programme, This Morning? Alice: Well, This Morning, yes, it's every day, it's now two and a half hours, they keep extending it! I am waiting for it to bump up against the Six O'Clock News soon! But This Morning it was, “can you do a piece on brisk walking and the health benefits”, as a result of some survey that came out, so here I am for the second time today brisk walking and broadcasting at the same time which is fantastic! Adam: Very good! Don't trip over! You've got a couple of dogs with you haven't you as well? Alice: I have, I've got Stanley who's my five-year-old schnoodle and his girlfriend Tilly and there are times when they become quite amorous in the long grass but I'm going to try and keep it clean for your sake! Adam: I knew you when we used to work in Shepherd's Bush in London, but you are now a country girl aren't you? Alice: Yeah, wellies welded to my feet! I grew up in suburbia and in North London suburbia and the countryside wasn't really important to me, but my parents took me out, took me and my sister out walking quite a lot. There was always “shall we do the walk through the woods”, “should we do the walk through the bluebell woods” which is slightly longer or “should we go up and round” which involved the hill. So, there was always a consciousness of walking in the countryside as a pleasant thing to do, but as we've got older, the countryside has become more important to me and we have been doing that thing, my partner and I have been doing that thing where we're trying to move out of London and we've settled on this beautiful village, beautiful functional village not far from Malmesbury in Wiltshire, which is where I am now, walking alongside the River Avon. So not too far from Avoncliff and the same body of water sort of flowing past me which is rather nice. Adam: How lovely. I know, I've seen you on This Morning as you're talking about wellbeing, and in terms of actually, with your consumer journalist hat on talking about the gadgets you could buy to help with wellbeing and having lights I think that show, sort of, natural light. I mean, how important do you feel it's been for you and your family during these rather difficult times to have access to nature and the outside? Alice: It's been everything to me. Everything. I've got teenage girls in fact it's their birthday today, their 19th birthday today, so for them probably it spells isolation for them because they didn't grow up in the countryside, or this this particular part of the countryside, so you know this means being away from their friends, but for myself and my husband it's been, it's been really important. For me to leave the house and walk in space because in London everything has felt very close and very claustrophobic and I'm mentally not good at that at all! So, I'm incredibly lucky to be able to breathe and give myself sort of mental and physical space away from other people. I was able to work from here, so I did sixty live broadcasts from, in effect, my back garden during lockdown. Adam: It's really interesting that you talk about your girls sort of feeling a sense of isolation because they came from the city and now are in a very rural area. I often find that it's a curious thing to get one's head round because really the nature debate about sustainability and trying to be better for the world is often very strongly led by young people. Alice: Oh it's theirs, it's completely their campaign! But I'm not sure that they associate it with, I mean, I feel like I'm treading on dangerous territory speaking, you know, putting words into their mouths because they're both very eloquent, quite passionate girls. I feel that I'm not sure that they would stand out in a field and say “we must protect this”. Probably coming from the city, they feel more that they see stuff, they see things going into bins, they see landfill, smoke, pollution. So, they see the big preservation of our world from a city perspective, probably more than standing in a field and thinking “oh this must never have, you know, thousands of houses built on it”, which is what probably makes me panic as much as anything. Adam: Do you get a sense of a change in people's attitudes in the way they behave, I mean, I think people talk about the need for ecological sustainability. I see amongst my friends and family, I have to also be careful about what I'm saying, I see less actually willingness to change personal behaviour than a willingness to say it's important, but they don't do an awful lot. Do you see that real difference? Alice: I'm a huge hypocrite, but I am now suddenly, it was probably about six months ago I was putting something in the bin, and it sounds like a strange Greta Thunberg epiphany, but it slightly was. I was putting some plastic in the bin, and I was trying to clear out a room and I was thinking this is going nowhere! This can't be recycled. This has to go underneath the ground, and this is not going to break down. I had a sort of panic about the fact that well if I was doing this and everyone was doing this and though I sort of have had that epiphany and I am changing my behaviour, and nothing particular triggered that, apart from me clearing out a bedroom and realising I had too much stuff. You know, which is odd, but you know, in terms of the big picture in the world I think it's very hard to make individuals feel responsible when we see big companies not taking responsibility. It's that sort of, well what difference is little me gonna make? And I've sort of had that, well I'm going to make a difference, so I will. I've had that moment and I think we have to all have that moment and I'm just about to fall into the River Avon, which could be interesting! I'm trying to encourage the dogs to have a drink. There you go guys, come on, look Tilly have a drink! Yeah well they're sort of having a drink, but I'm the one that's most likely to go in here. Adam: Well look, Alice, I feel split because I quite like the sound effect of you going in to end this, it'd be a great end wouldn't it! But on the other hand not a great way of re meeting after all these years. Look I will let you get on with your walk but thank you very much, thanks a lot. Alice: Thank you, thank you. Adam: Well, let's leave Alice Beer there and indeed all our friends at Avoncliff Woods. I do hope you enjoyed that and if you want to find a wood near you, you can go to the Woodland Trust website, woodlandtrust.org.uk/findawood and you can find a wood that's local to you. So that's woodlandtrust.org.uk/findawood. I do recommend you do that. Until next time happy wandering! Voiceover: Thank you for listening to the Woodland Trust Woodland Walks. Join us next month when Adam will be taking another walk in the company of Woodland Trust staff, partners and volunteers. And don't forget to subscribe to the series on iTunes or wherever you're listening to us and do give us a review and a rating. Why not send us a recording of your favourite woodland walk to be included in a future podcast. Keep it to a maximum of 5 minutes and please tell us what makes your woodland walk special, or send us an email with details of your favourite walk and what makes it special to you. Send any audio files to podcast@woodlandtrust.org.uk and we look forward to hearing from you.
About JoeJoe Onisick is a polarizing technologist with nearly 25 years' experience architecting, building, operating complex IT systems and advising customers on the same. Onisick's passion is marrying technology to a customer's real-time business challenges and leading them through the entirety of the adoption curve. Onisick is a Principal and co-founder of Transformation Continuum (transformationcontinuum.com), and founder of Define the Cloud (definethecloud.net). Links: transformation CONTINUUM: https://transformationcontinuum.com/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/JoeOnisick TranscriptAnnouncer: Hello, and welcome to Screaming in the Cloud with your host, Chief Cloud Economist at The Duckbill Group, Corey Quinn. This weekly show features conversations with people doing interesting work in the world of cloud, thoughtful commentary on the state of the technical world, and ridiculous titles for which Corey refuses to apologize. This is Screaming in the Cloud.Corey: This episode is sponsored by our friends at Revelo. Revelo is the Spanish word of the day, and its spelled R E V E L O. It means; I reveal. Now, have you tried to hire an engineer lately? I assure you it is significantly harder than it sounds. One of the things that Revelo has recognized as something I've been talking about for a while, specifically that while talent is evenly distributed opportunity is absolutely not. They're exposing a new talent pool to, basically, those of us without a presence in Latin America via their platform. It's the largest tech talent marketplace in Latin America with over a million engineers in their network, which includes, but isn't limited to, talent in Mexico, Costa Rica, Brazil, and Argentina. Now, not only do they wind up spreading all of their talent on English ability, as well as , you know, their engineering skills, but they go significantly beyond that. Some of the folks on their platform are hands down the most talented engineers that I've ever spoken to. Let's also not forget that Latin America has high time zone overlap with what we have here in the United States. So, you can hire full-time remote engineers who share most of the workday as your team. It's an end-to-end talent service. So, you can find and hire engineers in Central and South America without having to worry about, frankly, the colossal pain of cross border payroll and benefits and compliance because Revelo handles all of it. If you're hiring engineers, check out revelo.io/screaming to get 20% off your first three months. That's R E V E L O.io/screaming.Corey: This episode is sponsored in part by our friends at Vultr. Spelled V-U-L-T-R because they're all about helping save money, including on things like, you know, vowels. So, what they do is they are a cloud provider that provides surprisingly high performance cloud compute at a price that—while sure they claim its better than AWS pricing—and when they say that they mean it is less money. Sure, I don't dispute that but what I find interesting is that it's predictable. They tell you in advance on a monthly basis what it's going to going to cost. They have a bunch of advanced networking features. They have nineteen global locations and scale things elastically. Not to be confused with openly, because apparently elastic and open can mean the same thing sometimes. They have had over a million users. Deployments take less that sixty seconds across twelve pre-selected operating systems. Or, if you're one of those nutters like me, you can bring your own ISO and install basically any operating system you want. Starting with pricing as low as $2.50 a month for Vultr cloud compute they have plans for developers and businesses of all sizes, except maybe Amazon, who stubbornly insists on having something to scale all on their own. Try Vultr today for free by visiting: vultr.com/screaming, and you'll receive a $100 in credit. Thats V-U-L-T-R.com slash screaming.Corey: Welcome to Screaming in the Cloud, I'm Corey Quinn. My guest today is someone I've really admired from afar for a while just because he's a study in contrast. By day, he is a transformation—effectively—expert. He's a principal at his own consultancy that focuses on helping companies achieve their digital transformation. Very forward-looking, very high-level modern technology. But he also wound up effectively leaving Silicon Valley to go live in the middle of the woods. It's not usually a common combination. Joe Onisick is the principal at transformation CONTINUUM. Joe, thank you for joining me and suffering my fairly ignorant questions.Joe: Corey, thanks a lot for having me and the brilliant intro there.Corey: [laugh]. So, I stumbled across you on Twitter of all places, which is where I spend my work time, my free time, my spare time, et cetera. When people say, “Where are you dialing in from?” I say, “Oh, Twitter.” And that usually gets a laugh, but it's also a little unfortunately true.And your pinned tweet thread talks about how you weren't particularly happy with your life, where things weren't serving you and you decided it was time to make a change. It's the kind of thing that I think an awful lot of people flirt with the idea of, but you actually went ahead and did it. What happened.?Joe: So, I did a whole series of things. I think the big thing I tried to do was not bite off everything at once. So, the first thing I did was quit drinking. I was a—you know, which it says in the tweet and I'm pretty public about I was an extremely heavy alcoholic. So, I cut that out because I wasn't happy with it.And you know, the whole idea was I thought it was keeping me happy and it wasn't. So, got rid of that to see how things were and then just started a series of changes, which has, I think, gotten more extreme over time.Corey: Well, one of the early tweets in the thread was one of your coworkers at the time was planning to climb I think it was Kilimanjaro, and your position was, well, that's not something I would normally do. May I join you? If that's how it starts, it seems like well, that seems pretty far on most people's extreme scale.Joe: Yeah, that was an interesting one. The idea of starting in a rainforest and ending on a glacier up 20,000 feet was not of any interest to me at all, but it seemed like a life experience I wanted to put under my belt.Corey: I'm assuming that you're probably glad you did it because you don't meet too many people who are like, “Oh, yeah. I climbed a mountain. It sucked. I never wish I hadn't done it.” It feels almost like it's writing a book, on some level where no one wants to write a book; they want to have written a book. Is climbing a mountain similar to that, or does it go in a bit of a different direction?Joe: I think it was very similar to that. We did a ten-day track, but you can do it much shorter. So, we spent about seven days acclimatizing around the mountain and hiking around the mountain. So, it was more a little up and down, but more level. So, the first 15,000 feet was actually pretty enjoyable. It's the summit day where you go from 15,000 to 20,000, that is—it's just sheer misery, especially if it's not something you do every day.Corey: I thought I had a rough time whenever I visit my in-laws who live in Colorado Springs, and it's great hanging out in their house and whatnot, and I run up the stairs and I get winded and it's “Wow, what a tubby piece of crap I am. How did this happen?” It's like, “Oh right, we're at 9000 feet; the air is a lot thinner here.” So, I basically spend the entire trip out there, trying to move as little as possible as opposed to at home where I sit in front of my computer attempting to move as little as possible. But it hits in a different way.You quit your job in Silicon Valley as a part of this journey of—was it a journey of discovery? Was it just a series of changes? How do you contextualize it? How do you describe it?Joe: I'm trying to learn how to be whoever I am would be the way I'd describe it. I've spent my entire life being someone I thought I was supposed to be, and I never stopped to think who I am. So, a lot of this is just trying everything to see what fits.Corey: And then you make one of the classic blunders as you do this; you decide, “You know, I'm not going to work a traditional job anymore. I'm going to start a consultancy.” That is truly the path of fools, speaking as someone who did exactly that. And looking back at it, it was one of the best things I've ever done for sure, but if I had known how much work it was going to be and all of the ins and outs and ups and downs in the managing of my own psychology, I'm not sure I would have the courage to get started.Joe: Yeah, that's a great way to say it. I look back—my favorite example is one of my mentors started a couple of companies. His wife has had several exits. I mean, he's just a wealth of knowledge of tech: Tech the industry, and starting companies, and when I brought the idea to him, he asked, “So, you're thinking of starting a consultancy?” And I said, “Yes.” He goes, “I have one word of advice.” And I waited for him to reply, “Don't.”Corey: When you said that to people in my experience, they think, “Oh, they're trying to hoard all the wealth and happiness for themselves.” It's yes, that is what I'm trying to do. I view consulting as a zero sum game. There's only enough room for one of us. Yeah, it never works that way.It's just such an up and down thing and when I talk to folks who work at big tech companies and they are asking, “Oh, you know, I want to become an independent consultant because I'm tired of my job and my company and the rest,” don't do that. It's going to be a few lean years and it's going to take an awful lot of trying. And honestly, the hardest part of all of it, at least in tech—this is, to be clear, not a sympathetic problem—is at any point, you can walk away and say, “The hell with this,” and within a week, wind up getting a salaried job somewhere very comfortable, where you don't have to deal with all the hard parts of running a business and it pays three times your first year's revenue. And it's so much easier to go down that path. Fortunately for me, that wasn't really on the table because I'm an insufferable jackass who, my personality shines through and it turns out, this is not a desirable component in most workplaces.Joe: I think we share that. I think I've made myself fully unemployable now, so I don't have that parachute, which makes the consulting a little easier.Corey: You also have an additional challenge that, for better or worse, I don't, which is I fix the horrifying AWS bill, which means that I could demonstrate ROI with, more or less, basic arithmetic when people say, “So, why should I bring you in?” It is one of the easiest enterprise sales—not that there's an easy enterprise sale—that's possible because it's, “What are you selling?” “Money.” The end. You advise on digital transformation, which is inherently a sticky concept itself. What is it that you do for companies?Joe: So, I'd say we started out with probably the stupidest business model you could ever come up with. We decided we were going to address Fortune 100 technology companies at the same time as addressing the largest value-added resellers in the world, and at the same time, driving adoption services on behalf of them for their customers. So, we have three customer bases: The end-user of technology, the reseller of technology, and the vendor of technology, and we're helping them all adapt to the transformations happening in the industry. So, off the bat, we were already crazy because everyone would tell you pick a segment and focus, right? Not just technology vendors, but a specific hardware or software.But to create the value chain we do of getting their products to market and making sure they fit that market, we have to have visibility into all ends of the spectrum. So, we tackled the hard challenge to be able to be successful with what we wanted to do.Corey: It sounds an awful lot like you are taking a more… I'll use the term ‘honest'—I think honesty is the right word here—a more honest approach to getting companies to their desired outcomes. There are a lot of folks who specialize in, “Digital transformation,” quote-unquote, and that's very much a thin veneer over, “So, what do you really do?” It's, “Oh, we do cloud migration, specifically into this one cloud vendor.” And that journey of their digital transformation generally involves writing a very large and very specific check to a third-party company. And that's the end of it, and it's rinse, repeat, go all-in. You have an established track record of very much not doing that. Was that something that you did originally, or was that how the practice wound up evolving?Joe: So, I've kind of worked in all components of it. I've built giant channel practices within some of the world's largest VARs; I've worked on the—or started my career on the end-user side and then I got kind of drafted into the vendor side for a while. So, I've got exposure to all of it. I think the honesty piece has been—to a fault, integrity is a thing that for me, right? It's a trigger. I always tell people, I'm opinionated; you're going to get my opinions, but you'll never get anyone else's opinions. So, they might be subject to change, but they're always mine.Corey: There's an idea of you could buy my attention, but not my opinion, and that has been something of a guiding star for what I do just because people look at it and say, “Oh, that's this bold moral stance, and that's just inspirational,” and no. Absolutely not. It's that I suck at biting my tongue. When I look at something and I find it ridiculous, I can only go so long without, more or less, asking why the emperor is prancing around naked in front of everyone. And contrary to popular opinion, in corporate life, this is not a particularly valuable skill, in fact, just the opposite.But it does lend itself to a certain perspective on the larger industry. When you talk to companies who are looking for digital transformation, how does that conversation go? It seems like, for better or worse, it is a nebulous problem, and companies are generally not the looking for things via Google ads, for example? “Yes, hello. I'd like to buy one digital transformation, please.”Joe: Yeah, so it starts in several different ways. A lot of our business starts with a vendor with a new product that they know fits the market and fits where things are going, but they can't get it to move, right? They can't get it to sell, they can't get customers to adopt it, they can't get sales teams to understand it. And so we come in and try and fit it into the bigger picture while tying it to what people already understand and know.You can call it, like, chunking learning, right? I'm not going to be able to learn astrophysics if I don't have a baseline in math. So, we try and tie the future to today so that people can grasp and understand it. And the same ends up at the opposite end of the spectrum: You can't go in and talk to a laggard customer about how machine learning and AI is going to transform their business operations if they're still wondering how to manage what they've got today.Corey: There's an underappreciated skill in meeting customers where they are, and very often that can express itself as a perception of being condescending in some cases, and I think that's where a lot of people get it wrong. The hallmark of a terrible junior consultant is to walk in and say, “Oh, what moron built this?” Invariably to said, quote-unquote, “Moron.” People don't show up at work hoping to do a crappy job today. There's a reason that things exist the way that they do.Yeah, maybe it's because they just didn't know any better, but maybe there's a constraint or context you don't have. And generally in my experience, failing to respect that context is just the kiss of death because, think, it's the only thing that separates software from being able to do your entire job.Joe: Yeah, and it's a lost art, right? It's one of the things I do and love doing is training engineers how to be consultants, or salespeople how to be consultants, and it tends to be a lost art. We have these products or solutions that we're positioning or that are our favorites and we try to shoehorn them in every hole. One of my favorite examples was, I was asked to go into a California government agency and buy them and sell them SDN, they wanted to know why they needed to adopt SDN. And instead of coming in and preaching SDN, which was what I was theoretically getting paid to do, I started asking some questions and immediately realized these people don't want Software-Defined Networking at all.They want, you know, to be on the command line whenever they can, and not have to touch the gear other than that. So, I started to dig a little more and eventually find out, they hired a new CTO, and that CTO had SDN-ified their last network, and so they thought it was going to get shoved down their throat. And they were trying to figure out how to get around that. And so instead of selling an SDN, I gave them the 15 reasons why their operation wouldn't benefit from it and found another problem to solve for them.Corey: There's really something to be said for having the courage to deviate from the engagement plan. I find that there's a certain type of consultancy that as soon as they realize the facts on the ground are not as described or things have changed, they keep trying to get back on track for the thing that they believe they're there to do. But I've always viewed it as being there to help customers, and sometimes that means that it's a bit different than what you expected. There are times I have actively advised customers to spend more on AWS. It's, yeah, you could not have backups for those incredibly important things over there, but I [wouldn't 00:13:12] generally recommend that. And I always get these strange looks. And it evolved my business practice a bit away from, for example, guaranteeing that I'd achieved a certain level of savings just because that it got people focused on the wrong outcome.Joe: Absolutely. I draw some analogies, I do some woodworking as a hobby, and occasionally I'll go out and buy a tool like a router or a bandsaw because I want that tool, and then I design projects around that tool. That's great for a hobby when you have some spare income to blow. That's a terrible way to run an IT operation.Corey: That's a lot of fun as a hobby, but if you're a professional carpenter, that's probably the wrong [laugh] direction to take things in. It's a different approach to things. Your background is fascinating, and I would argue makes you incredibly well-suited for the role you're in. You've been a principal engineer, you've been a CTO, you've been a VP of Sales and Marketing, you've sort of done, more or less, every major business function out there. The one I don't see on your background listed is accounting and finance, but yeah, turns out you run a business, you learn real quick how at least the important moving parts there are.What was it that made you decide to take that background, that eclectic group of skills and say, yep, consultancy, first off, and then it's going to be aimed at solving these expensive existential questions that companies are wrestling with? Because it turns out the world increasingly runs on computers and that's not something a lot of our customers are great at out of the gate.Joe: So, some of it happened just by opportunity and chance. My first sales engineering role pulled me out of the customer side, and when the hiring manager called me to interview me and explain a sales engineer role, I told him, you know, “This isn't for me. I don't want to sell.” And then he ended up calling back the next day and explaining this training certification knowledge and growth path he put me on, and I changed my mind real quick because he was going to invest in me. So, some of it started by accident, then I realized the value in the diversity of knowledge.I mean the human brain is a pattern-matching machine. The more data sets it has to match patterns on, the more powerful it gets, so the more diverse my job roles and the more diverse my education, my reading, my study become, the more I can help any given job I have by finding parallels to other things I've experienced.Corey: You started your consultancy right around the time of the pandemic if memory serves, and that the running gag has been for a while now—it's one of those haha, only serious type of jokes—is the global pandemic has done more to accelerate your company's digital transformation than your last ten CIOs combined. And there's something to be said for necessity forcing the issue in some cases. How have you seen it evolving?Joe: So yeah, the pandemic definitely accelerated digital transformation and in fact, it was part of our first-year revenue success was that. There were some challenges that came with it. Large companies didn't know what the financial market would look like, so they locked down spending and budgets quite a bit, so you got some good and bad there. But I think it accelerated a lot of things.I think the maybe the disappointing part to me is that a lot of the things that the pandemic accelerated, were things that should have been happening anyway: Expanding remote work, building out better hybrid models to be able to secure SaaS, Infrastructure as a Service, and on-premises properties together, those types of things. They were things that we should have been doing, but nobody was forced to until the ‘oh, crap' happened.Corey: It's one of those areas that is always felt like companies approach strangely. I've worked for a number of large companies over the course of my career who effectively decided to one day wake up, plant a flag in the ground and declare it we're not a finance company—or whatever it is that they did—we're a tech company. And in practice, I find that the execution of that vision doesn't tend to extend much further beyond just putting a sign on the wall. Is that something you've seen and is a common trope, or do I just have really interesting luck in picking employers?Joe: No, I think we see that a lot. I think we see a lot of large, intelligent organizations see a shift happening in the world and they decide they have to address that or do that, right? You saw a lot of this in the early days of cloud. They didn't figure out a business problem or financial problem to move to cloud; they just saw all their peers doing it, so they put a stake in the sand and said, “We're going to cloud.” And I think that's a bad way to design the business operations. If your core isn't a tech company, then, “What do you mean by that?” would be the first question I ask.Corey: One thing I want to talk about because I don't get to see it very often. I am almost always brought in to companies when they're already running in the cloud—specifically, AWS since that is where I start and stop professionally these days—and they're already there, and surprise, it costs money. You're there earlier than I am; you are helping them get there in the first place. I've viewed for a while the idea that moving to cloud to save money is a losing proposition. If you ask me in good faith to say, “All right, in five years, will we make money or lose money on this journey?”It really comes down to what answer do you want because I can make an extremely strong good-faith argument in either direction, but my honest opinion is that it's a capability story, not a cost savings play. That is how I've come to view it, but given that I'm viewing it after the fact, and I'm only seeing a very specific example of it, I'm curious to know how you see it.Joe: I would not recommend to a client to move to the cloud for the purpose of saving cost. If there's something else leading it, scalability, elasticity, operational flexibility, whatever you're looking at, that should be the primary goal. If you can also build it to save some costs, that's fantastic. And there's really two reasons I look at that. One is, IT should be a business enabler if you're doing it right, and if you have something enabling your business driving revenue, why would you want to starve it of funding? Why would cost be your primary goal—cost savings?And the second piece is, in my life, I always find that the success of a decision is 20% making the right decision and 80% making it the right decision after it's made, right? It's the effort afterwards to make it work that's going to show you whether you're getting the cost savings or not. It's not easy to jump to cloud and create the new operational model that's going to be the cheaper operational model, so if you're not willing to do that work, once you're in cloud, you're not going to save money on it.Corey: This episode is sponsored by our friends at Oracle Cloud. Counting the pennies, but still dreaming of deploying apps instead of “Hello, World” demos? Allow me to introduce you to Oracle's Always Free tier. It provides over 20 free services and infrastructure, networking, databases, observability, management, and security. And—let me be clear here—it's actually free. There's no surprise billing until you intentionally and proactively upgrade your account. This means you can provision a virtual machine instance or spin up an autonomous database that manages itself, all while gaining the networking, load balancing, and storage resources that somehow never quite make it into most free tiers needed to support the application that you want to build. With Always Free, you can do things like run small-scale applications or do proof-of-concept testing without spending a dime. You know that I always like to put asterisks next to the word free? This is actually free, no asterisk. Start now. Visit snark.cloud/oci-free that's snark.cloud/oci-free.Corey: You have a, I would say, unpopular opinion on taking multi-cloud as an action item in the direction to go in. The reason I don't call it that unpopular is because it echoes a lot of my own thinking on these things, and Lord knows, I have suffered the slings and arrows over the years for advocating such a thing, but what is your position on adopting multiple clouds?Joe: So, if I was going to put it in the least objective possible terms, it would be, I want to be single architecture—single cloud in this case—unless. Right? I should be architecting for the simplest environment, I can build given my requirements. And so when I see clients try and jump into multi-cloud because it's the buzzword or it's something that a vendor is trying to sell them, multi-cloud is not a solution, it's a necessity, in some cases.Corey: My perspective has been to pick a provider—I don't care which one—go all in until you have a reason to do something different. Multi-cloud is, in my experience, something that happens to you rather than something that is an intentional choice. But where your data winds up living is fundamentally where everything else is going to wind up centering around as well. The old-school procurement story of not wanting to be tied to one particular vendor because they're going to soak you is a good piece of advice and I apply it in almost every IT decision, except when it comes to cloud. Because the pattern is different, the model is different, the way the discounting works is radically different.And maybe that's just because I haven't done a lot of this work in traditional IT, but is this also the wrong approach, going back to the world of data centers and networking vendors and server vendors and the like, or is it really a different world?Joe: No, I think it's very much the same world. I'm religious about standardization wherever possible because it reduces the operational friction across the board that gets ignored in a lot of these costs. And that operational friction can end up in headcount and salary and cost that you see, but it also ends up in frustration for those teams, complexity of what you do, and another form of lock-in that prevents you from modernizing that infrastructure. So, anywhere you can find a standard single vendor that works—and it's going to have some caveats, like everything—I would. And that's not to say you should always standardize on everything; it's standardize in less.Corey: One of the things that I tend to see as far as a multi-cloud pattern that just doesn't work is in no small part, very much an intentional choice—I believe—on the part of the cloud providers, where inbound data transfer is free; outbound costs an awful lot of money. And that, if for nothing other than basic economics has acted as a brake on the adoption of those patterns, in many cases. Is that something that you experience as these companies are moving to cloud is something that they need to become accustomed to? Is that something they know going in and they just intrinsically accept it? How does that awareness play out?Joe: So, I think you're hitting on the biggest problem of multi-cloud is how do I get access to the data sitting in one cloud? Every cloud provider wants to give you cheap storage because once your data is there, you're going to use their compute, their bandwidth, everything else. And so when I am working with a client that is looking at multi-cloud, the first thing we want to solve for is, where's the demilitarized zone we can put your data that can serve it effectively to any cloud you're using? Because most of the time, your apps aren't going to work in isolation. And that tends to be a solvable problem, but one of the harder problems to solve, and one of the things I don't see a lot of people thinking of first when they start to put apps in different clouds.Corey: For me, when I was advising—lightly—on Cloud migrations and digital transformations as such, the problem wasn't the technology or even the budget or the rest, it was the growing awareness that people were going to have to think about things in a different context. Tying it back to economics, for example, when you ask someone who's in a data center and looking to move to cloud, “Okay, great. How much data per month are your app servers sending and receiving to the database servers?” And the answer? “Why on earth would I have to know that? Why would I care?”And it's oh, you're very much about to care. There's a reason I'm asking this. It's a cultural transformation, much more than it is a technical one, in my experience. Do you find that that comes as a surprise to folks or by the time that they get serious enough about digital transformation to bring someone like you in that they've already checked the basic boxes?Joe: I think we've improved a lot over time. I mean, I think there were great horror stories of they're ready to flip the switch on a cloud migration, and then they talked to the CFO who has no desire to deal with an OpEx model, or something to that effect, right? So, I think we've moved a lot past that. But I think people are still very naive about the overall dependencies, the data transfer. I used to say you can ask any given customer how many applications they have, and if they can give you a ballpark, that's amazing. So, to know what the dependencies are, what the data transfer rates [crosstalk 00:24:49]—Corey: [crosstalk 00:24:49] start counting on it, and it's like it's one of those, “Yeah, don't bother giving me specific count; just give me breadbox sizing. Are we talking dozens, hundreds, thousands, millions? At least give me an order of magnitude here.”Joe: Right. And if you don't know how many apps you have, how do you know how they communicate and how much data they transfer, and the rest? And oh, by the way, figuring that all out is an expensive exercise.Corey: Very often, I tend to view hybrid as something that no one intends to do, but they get there almost by accident where they start migrating some workloads, and it goes super well, then they realize, “Huh, I have a mainframe over there and there is no AWS/400 I can migrate it to, so we're going to give up, call it hybrid, plant the flag, declare victory, and the end; we're a hybrid now.” I feel like that is in many cases, what a multi-cloud… pattern might evolve to be. I think we're still early enough in the cycle that moving from all-in on Cloud Provider A to all-in on Cloud Provider B isn't an exercise most companies have undertaken. But it feels like that might be something that gives rise to a multi-cloud world, just because that is the pattern that people fall into turns out to be more of a trap than anything.Joe: Yeah, I think we're always more willing to spend $10 a month for eternity than $100 right now on a problem. So, we get this idea of we're not going to take that legacy, monolithic app and re-architect it for the cloud; we're going to leave it and run in a hybrid model. Over time you're over-engineering; over time, you're spending more money; over time, you're not solving the problem. One of the things that, you know, here on my ranch I try and do is never do band-aid fixes because as soon as I go put a bandaid on something, it's going to stay there until it breaks on me again. If you're not going to fix it right the first time, you're going to have challenges with it all the time.Corey: It's the idea of buying the best tool that you can find on this, when you buy the most expensive–or best tool—which is often the most expensive—it's one of those you cry once, whereas if you've buy the crappy tool, every time you use it, it irritates you, but you can't justify replacing it. It's the same model. One thing that I keep smacking into, it on some level, makes me feel like a bit of a fraud because I'm here talking to companies about their AWS bill, where it starts where it stops, but regardless of how big or how small that bill is, it is always dwarfed by payroll expenses. And the hard part of cloud migrations and modernization is not, “Well, how do we move all the applications from the data center into the cloud?” Compared to, “We have 5000 employees who are working in the on-prem environment and know how that works, and cloud is something they find in the sky when they go outside once in a while. How do we get those people upskilled?” That seems to be the challenge of the age, right now. I am bounded to only the computery bits, as far as what I tend to explore. You're not. How does staff upskilling and staff expertise point of impacting your work?Joe: That's a huge point, right? Your operational costs around your staff, staff tooling, and operations are always far exceeding any of your infrastructure costs, cloud or not. And I think one of the biggest hindrances I see to that is companies have this fear that if they train people and upskill them that they're going to lose them. And, you know, I take a pretty hard stance on that, if you're that worried about losing your people because you're training them a little bit that, maybe you should fix your culture or your paychecks, or both. That's a huge hindrance to it.You have to train your people because they're costing you more not knowing what you need to know. If they do leave, that happens, that's business, that's how things work. It's more expensive to you over time to not be investing in the knowledge they need. And wherever you can carry your existing staff forward, you're going to save a lot money over hiring that new staff, especially in this current market.Corey: There is a reality as well—and I want to challenge you on this one a little bit—that if you have a team of people who are working in your data centers on various things, and let's say their market rate is $60,000 a year—to pick a number arbitrarily—upskilling them to cloud-first is hard. And I want to be clear, not everyone either has the capacity or the desire to, “All right, I'm going to basically become a cloud developer now.” But for the folks who do and are able to make that transition, they're making $60,000 a year but they've just learned a new skill that has a going market rate of perhaps $120,000 in that market. On some level it's a well, I could go work somewhere else and double my pay. It's you'd have to convince me that there was a strong compelling reason for them not to do it. If they were asking me for advice, like, why wouldn't you? That's one of those obvious type of answers in most scenarios. How do you square that circle?Joe: There's going to be some risk involved either way, so I'm not trying to shy away from that. But I think if you have people that generally like their job and what they do, people tend to not want to switch jobs as much. We all experience inertia and complacency, right, at some level. I think the second piece is, using the numbers you're using as an example, if I'm making 60 today, and you train me for a $120,000 job, and somewhere along that line, when I showed the aptitude and have the skillset, you bump me from 60 to 80 or 90 without me asking, you just bought a level of loyalty for $30,000 a year cheaper than you would have bought my replacement. And that doesn't mean I'm going to stay forever, but I'm really going to like where I'm at when I get a giant bump without coming into your office and demanding it.Corey: I think that there's a misunderstanding across a lot of sectors of the economy that employment is not strictly about the numbers. And I know that because in my 20s, I was in crippling credit card debt, and every career decision I made was around what had the biggest number on the paycheck. And there's nothing inherently wrong with that approach, but it also didn't serve me super well, in some scenarios. If I'm chasing—even now—the thing that pays me the absolute most money, yeah, it turns out that running a boutique consultancy is not the answer to that question. I could do a lot of things that are considerable more ethically dubious; I'd be miserable, but it would make more money in some respects.Employees are in a very much a similar boat. It's yeah, I could go make 10% more somewhere else, but I like what I'm working on. I like the people. I like the culture, I like the baseline level of respect the company has for me, and I like the fact that it's not just empty words when they say that they invest in their people. And I think that is one of those things that really hits and convinces people that, yeah, is this place perfect? No, no place is, but that's why I stay. And that counts for an awful lot and I think that gets overlooked.Joe: I agree completely. And I think, you know, I want to be careful because there's a level of money that shifts at, right? At some point, you got to pay the bills, you got to pay off the loans, you got to pay the mortgage. And so the more money to get to that level is extremely important. And probably the most important thing in your career choice. Once you hit comfort and normalcy—Corey: Oh, yeah. Going from between 30,000 and 40,000 is very different than debating between 170 and 180. It's a percentage thing, and there are certain steps at which point it is a dramatic lifestyle improvement. At other points, that same amount of money is more or less, it looks suspiciously like a rounding error. And it also depends on people's individual situations, too. I want to be very clear, this is not in defense of underpaying people in any respect. I'm a huge fan of charge market rate and get more money if you possibly can.Joe: Absolutely. And I think it's a combination of those things. And you have to remember, it's going to be different to different individuals, right? A single person with no intent on a family might be one hundred percent okay, with 80 hour weeks for the right money because they don't have a whole lot of other commitments, right? Whereas it's somebody else in a different set of boats is going to care more about a four-day work week or the rest.So, I think two things would help companies maintain the talent, especially in a market like this, and that's having a rounded out package that includes great salaries along with benefits, and probably providing some choice so that the individual can get what they're really looking for within the big picture of the benefits package.Corey: I really appreciate your spending the time to talk with me about all this today. If people want to learn more about what you're up to and how you think about these and many other things, where's the best place to find you?Joe: I'd say so transformationcontinuum.com is probably the best place. I'm on Twitter, but I'll warn you I'm a bit of a porcupine, so I'm not for everybody's tastes.Corey: A lot of that going around on this [laugh] conversation today. Thank you again for your time. I really do appreciate it.Joe: This was fantastic. Thank you, Corey.Corey: Joe Onisick, principal at transformation CONTINUUM. I'm Cloud Economist Corey Quinn, and this is Screaming in the Cloud. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, whereas if you've hated this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice along with an angry, insulting comment that I will only accept if you send it from 20,000 feet above sea level.Corey: If your AWS bill keeps rising and your blood pressure is doing the same, then you need The Duckbill Group. We help companies fix their AWS bill by making it smaller and less horrifying. The Duckbill Group works for you, not AWS. We tailor recommendations to your business and we get to the point. Visit duckbillgroup.com to get started.Announcer: This has been a HumblePod production. Stay humble.
Joe Porter is a Roofstock Certified Agent and the founder of Lighthouse Real Estate LLC in Charleston SC. Joe is focused on helping clients buy and sell homes, while offering his considerable experience in construction and the large network of tradesmen he gained during his acquisition years. In this episode, Joe shares his knowledge of the Charleston market; economic factors, demographics, neighborhood scores, geographic considerations and the current environment on the ground Episode Links: joe@lighthouscharleston.com http://lighthousecharleston.com/ https://learn.roofstock.com/blog/charleston-real-estate-market --- Transcript Before we jump into the episode, here's a quick disclaimer about our content. The Remote Real Estate Investor podcast is for informational purposes only, and is not intended as investment advice. The views, opinions and strategies of both the hosts and the guests are their own and should not be considered as guidance from Roofstock. Make sure to always run your own numbers, make your own independent decisions and seek investment advice from licensed professionals. Michael: Hey, everyone, and welcome to another episode of the Remote Real Estate Investor. I'm Michael Albaum and today with me, we have our certified agent Joe Porter for the Charleston, South Carolina Market. He's going to be talking to us today about all the things we need to know as investors before getting involved in that space. So let's get into it. Joe Porter, what's going on, man? Thanks for taking the time to hang out with me today. Joe: Hello, you're welcome. Thanks for having me. Michael: My pleasure. I am super excited to talk to everybody with you about Charleston, South Carolina. Tell us a little bit Joe, first off who you are, where you come from? How long have you been an agent? And are you an investor personally, quickfire questions to get started… Joe: Absolutely, ready to go. So I moved to Charleston to attend the College of Charleston about 22 years ago. And like many other people, never left. I came from the Washington DC area and visited the region one time and never looked back. So shortly after graduating from the College of Charleston, I was one of the many residual recipients of ninja loans, okay, so, you know, I knew a ton of people who needed rooms for rent, and I got the bright idea, let's buy a house. And I was working at a bartender out on Folly Beach at the time, and was making tips and Wells Fargo decided to give me $200,000, which I bought my first house with that sort of kicked off my real estate career. Once I found that house, I kind of got the bug and never stopped looking. So I went in from there and got my real estate license. I'm not a very sales oriented person. So I knew from there, I wanted to embark on sort of the investing side of things. So I signed on as a buyer for: the we buy ugly houses franchise home investor. Michael: Okay. Joe: So that sort of gave me the framework of looking how to, you know, analyze a deal, the repairs, and how to present an offer to the seller. And right about that time, I established a brokerage to sort of dovetail my, you know, investing, dealings and offers to then list retail, I experienced some success there. And then the bottom of the market fell off and I just had a bunch of listings and no buyers. At that point, I guess this was around, you know, 2000/ 7, 8, 9 I came up with a bright idea to start buying houses. So I put together a little mean, machine of a crew with the idea to have the acquisitions improvement and management all under one umbrella. And we started buying houses, okay. So the first house I bought was in North Charleston, it was a single family detached home for $12,000. Michael: What? Joe: It pulled… Yeah, oh yeah. Someone had yanked all the copper plumbing out of it, all the copper wires. It had been, you know, sitting vacant as a foreclosure, you know, owned by, you know, the Bank of New York and so that was the first house. And we went in, renovated it, rather quickly. And, you know, rented it out and that was my proof of concept. I said, this works out great. You know, at the time, I rented it out for $800 a month. Today, I still have that house, you know, what now almost 15 years later, and it's a 1200 a month rental for me. Michael: And what did you spend on the rehab? Do you recall? Joe: You know, at this point, I did everything myself. You know, I knew enough to be dangerous, but now, I know I really didn't know anything about renovations and construction. So I cut some corners but you know, and I was buying used materials, things like that. I spent about seven grand on the rehab Michael: So you bought it for 12, put seven into it and then rented it for a 50. Dude… Joe: Yes, and didn't take an accountant to, to like those returns. Michael: That's incredible. I don't think I've ever heard of it like, that's like a 4% plus property. Joe: Yes, indeed. So after that, you know, I brought in more people on the construction side to help me out, we put… put a crew together, and I continued to participate in the labor, we bought one house after another. And then, you know, we did about 10/ 12 houses a year. And I currently own and manage about 55 rental units in the Charleston area. So they're all scattered site, single family detached. And, you know, so I spent a solid about eight years just doing that cumulating. And then, since the market has shifted, I've focused more on my brokerage activities, I brought my wife, Claire in on the business, and she helps with buying and selling. So last year, we did about 15 million in transactions, but 50 sites. Year before we did about 14 million. So right now, we are solely focused on the brokerage activity. And if you know something should present itself from an acquisition standpoint, we jump on it, our business model is, you know, will present when we go on a listing appointment, will present an array of options. So, you know, first option is, you know, hey, I see what you got, we could sell it as is, for this price, we can also help you with some of the repairs, and we'll pitch in on the repair costs, bring our crew in to help maximize the cost of the or maximize the value, we do a cost value approach there. And then the third and final option, when it's appropriate, we can buy directly from you, no commissions, no closing costs, you know, on your timeline, whatever, whatever you want to do there. So doing that we have, we'll add a couple to the portfolio, we'll buy maybe one or two a year that will be flips, and then we'll list you know, about 50 years. Michael: Joe, this is amazing. Man, there's so much here that I want to unpack, we'll have to have you back on just to talk about that side of your business. But I want to, I want to shift gears here a little bit and talk about Charleston, as a market so that all of our listeners can get an idea of what they could expect why they should be excited about the market. So can you give us just some high level overview of: Are people moving to Charleston? And if so why? You know, what companies are headquartered there? What jobs are available for folks? Joe: Yes, so the secret is out on Charleston. It is currently, I think ranked the 12 fastest growing metro area in the United States, we have about 38 people a day moving to the region. Especially over the past two years, we've seen a bit of a migration of both, you know, people trying to leave more crowded, you know, urban environments, or baby boomers coming to retirement age. And so those are the type of migration that we're seeing in the area. You know, Charleston, people might know it, as, you know, the historic downtown. You know, 20 years ago, our economy was based on tourism, and hospitality. So we were, you know, just in that service sector, and that was about it. But since then, you know, our economy has exploded, we now are anchored in manufacturing. So the state of South Carolina is very sort of, you know, company friendly. We're offering incentives for companies to move here and set up shop. You know, there's not a lot of labor unions or, you know, thing it's a right to work state, so companies like that. So that's lured Boeing from Seattle, to North Charleston. Volvo's setting up here, Mercedes, Daimler, Chrysler, Bosch, new core. Those are examples of some of the companies here in the Charleston area in the manufacturing sector. We also have a military presence. Okay, we have a joint base, that's Air Force. We have a naval, naval weapons station, and a nucular submarine school based in Goose Creek, which is just 15 minutes north of Charleston. And there's also going to be developing one of the larger Coast Guard schools here, so we have military and then education, my alma mater, College of Charleston, the Citadel and the Medical School of South Carolina. You know that along with our port activity, so Charleston, has just completed a port deepening. So that makes us the deepest port on the east coast. So lots of importing, exporting, is bringing a bunch of, you know, auxilary businesses with it to the… Michael: Yeah, oh my gosh, that's really interesting. I had no idea. So…okay… Joe: …there's a lot happening here. Michael: Uh, yeah, sure, sounds like it. Joe, I'm wondering if you could do a screen share and kind of give everybody who's watching this online, a visual tour of the city, if you will. And if you could share with us, where do you like to look for your investments? And where should folks be looking for there's based on if they're targeting cash flow, or some appreciation potential? Joe: So one of the things I like about Charleston is, you know, our sub markets, okay, this is a unique region that's geographically defined by all this water here, okay. So if you could see my cursor, here, we have the downtown Peninsula, okay. So everybody knows, the historic Charleston downtown. There is a district within the Peninsula downtown, that's been designated for short term rentals, okay. And as a result, you know, prices are up your average property will sell for over a million dollars. But that's situated in the middle of the peninsula here where, you know, you know, vacationers guests can come and, you know, walk the city, which is very walkable, you can see it's not very big the, the downtown Peninsula, okay. You know, one of the things that makes Charleston so unique is the fact that they've kept all their historic buildings. So there's buildings, you know, 1800s just beautiful along the battery here, which makes it a big attraction. They also have lots of rules to what you can and can't do with properties. So, for example, we have a height restriction. The buildings cannot be higher than the large, you know, the tallest church steeple. So they call it the holy city, you look at the skyline, and you see nothing but church steeples, okay, downtown. So as a result, they have lifted the height restriction, we call this the neck area, which is part of the Peninsula, that sort of, you know… isn't very wide. And so there's a bunch of growth here in this area, where, you know, there's some high rises, some more development happening, as opposed to the downtown area, which you know, was full about 200 years ago. Michael: Okay. Joe: Then, of course, you have your barrier islands, okay. This is a great place for short term rentals. So we have Folly Beach out here, we have Kiawah Island. And to the north here, we have island homes, and Solomon's Island. These are excellent places to invest in that beach house. Okay, I got one on Folly Beach, where it's a five bedroom, three and a half bath, where we'll do $100,000 in gross rental revenue this year, from our season that's getting ready to start in mid-March and go through September. Michael: Holy smokes, and what do you buy it for Joe? Joe: I bought that house for just over a million dollars. Michael: That's incredible. Joe: And then we have our more suburban communities to the south James Island. That's where I live most of the year. John's Island, one of the largest Sea Islands on the East Coast, that's mostly residential and upcoming area. A lot of this, you know, you could drive not very far outside of Charleston, say 30 minutes to get you through Johns Island, and to more rural places like Guatemala, where you think you're in the middle of nowhere, but you're still a stone's throw away from Charleston. One area of significant growth would be the Somerville area. Okay. So some of these manufacturers that I'm talking about Volvo Chrysler, Daimler, they are setting up shop along this I-26 corridor. And so as a result, we're seeing a lot of newer developments such as: Next in, you know, nicely done, new schools that are becoming great areas to invest. For example, you might see a, you know, three bedroom, single family home, new construction in the mid three hundreds low for hundreds come available, that type of property would rent for about $2,200 a month. Michael: This is great, this is great. And do you have more like entry level price point neighborhoods and suburbs? Joe: Yes. So entry level for Charleston would be right around that mid $300,000. So there's areas Mount Pleasant would be the most sort of desirable suburb. The entry level there is about 700,000, James Island entry level about 400,000. Now John's, we still were in the three hundreds. And then areas north North Charleston, this area of Goose Creek. This outlined area in gray here is the Naval Weapons Station. So this is a great area for rentals, and buying newer homes in Goose Creek, where you can get a house in, you know, around 300 to 350,000 and have a bunch of good renter's here. There's also some areas of North in the south end of North Charleston that are quite popular. This area is referred to as Park Circle, sort of Old North Charleston community developed in the 40s, 50s. And then these areas here where I own a bunch of rental properties, this is called Dorchester Terrace Waylon, where you could still get a house for under 200,000. This was all developed in the 30s and 40s. Because we had the naval base, huge naval base here on the Cooper River. So the houses are 80 years old, but they represent a good location and, you know, high demand for rentals. Michael: Fantastic and Joe, can you give everyone listening and watching an idea of some traditional things to be aware of if they are going to be thinking about investing in Charleston? So for instance, how do property taxes work? And then what kind of natural hazards or catastrophes are known to hit the Charleston area and that people should be aware of? Joe: Okay, well, I'll start with, with the second question here, of course, with all the water, okay, flood insurance, okay. Lots of properties, lots of areas are in flood, well, everything's in a flood zone, but a lot are in A, E, V zones, that would represent, you know, flood risk, and therefore, most properties carry flood insurance. Michael: Okay. Joe: Certainly the ones on the barrier islands do downtown, there are certain areas to be aware of where there's drainage issues. However, in the suburbs here, you get a little bit out of you know, that this 526 corridor here, your typical flood insurance policy in A zone will run you about $700 a year. So nothing, you know, cost prohibitive. However, if you get into some of these beach or low lying areas, you're looking at, you know, 2500- 5,000 a year, as well as you know, the risk of flooding. So there's always something to be aware of. That's one of the first questions I'll ask property owners or sellers: Okay, do you have an elevation certificate detailing how high your house is in relationship to the base flood elevation? And how much is your flood insurance policy? And is that policy assumable? So that's one thing to be aware of, in this area. Property taxes to address that are, I would say relatively affordable or cheaper than other areas. So your average price home, you know, say 350,000, which is the median price here in Charleston, your property taxes will be about $5,500 a year. So I think that's relatively pretty, you know, affordable. Michael: Got it, got it. So like one and a half percent 1.4%, roughly, of the purchase price, Joe: Correct, yeah. And so, um, we do a point of sale assessment. So a property's value is reassessed at the point of purchase and it's assessed for that amount, and then from there, there's a cap it can't, the value cannot go up more than 10% and then it's milled down from there. So it's not that you're there's a cap that it'll jump 10%, is the assessed value. So once you're there, you're locked in, basically, you know, incrementally increase if the, you know, if the market continues to do so. Michael: Okay, got it. And everyone's talking right now we're recording this middle of February, about how crazy and red hot the market seems to be. And we always like to remind folks that hey real estate is done locally and so well, one market might be red hot, others might be less so. So talk to us a little bit about what you're seeing in the Charleston market, how much supply do you have? How fast are these homes going for? And kind of that, what percentage of the list price are they moving at? Joe: So we've had a similar supply and demand dynamic as most markets, we have very little supply in high demand. Currently, in our more Tri County area in the MLS, there's about 900 properties for sale, if you strip out new construction or proposed construction, it comes closer to 500. Okay, that would represent under one month of inventory, so about three weeks. So you know, if another house doesn't come online, in three weeks, we'll be down to zero. So I've never seen it this low. So it's definitely inventory is constrained. As a result, you know, we've received, we've, you know, had basically 22% price appreciation over last year, so prices are skyrocketing. And, you know, it is a tough market. It's, you know, but investors who are willing to, you know, take on maybe a house that needs repairs, or act quickly, or have the ability to, you know, go in on an offer cash, they certainly have a leg up in this environment. Michael: Okay. Okay, and where are you coaching your buyers to do to win offers? Joe: As quickly, of course, sometimes, will awaive appraisals, or put in appraisal buffers, stating that, you know, if we are going to use financing, you know, we'll be able to kick in extra money towards the down payment. Sometimes we'll pitch a cash offer and be able to submit proof of funds in in, you know, saying we're willing to close with cash, and then we'll substitute with financing at the closing. Other times, we'll you know, say we're, you know, based on a walkthrough inspection, or you know, you do enough due diligence upfront that will buy the house as is. Average days on market are about three. So the speed of which you act is, is very important. And then average selling price to list price is about 98%. So, you know, if you're going to, you know, make an offer, you better bring it. So that's some of the things we do to coach our buyers in this market. Michael: It makes total sense and great insights. Joe, I'm curious to get your opinion kind of thoughts around as you're looking at properties to post to Roofstock because you're obviously our certified agent out in the Charleston market. What is it that you're looking for what makes a great investment property, in your opinion? Joe: One thing I'm super excited about is, Roofstock short term rental market, okay. And we don't have Charleston online quite yet, but we're working towards it. But I think some of the higher rate of return will be in this Isla palms, Folly Beach, Keola, on the short term rental side, as well as downtown Charleston. The numbers that are being produced here are amazing. So once we get the short term rental stuff up and running, I'd love for everybody to you know, hone in on, on some of those properties. Because, you know, we have properties on Cuba, for example, that are producing over well over $350,000 a year on a short term basis. Michael: Holy smokes and what are the list price on some of those just to give people some perspective? Joe: So that particular one I'm referencing, it's called the ocean blue and it's listed on our website: http://kiawahislandgetaways.com/ . And that was a million dollar, it was $1.4 million attached, so it's condo regime stuff, oceanfront home, that the owners spent a million on the interior. I mean, this thing looks like it's out of Southern Living… Michael: Holy Smokes… Joe: …and that's on Kiawah Island, which is a resort, I don't know if anybody saw the PGA Championship on the ocean course here. This past year Kiawah Island has five amazing golf courses, they have great amenities pools and a very nice beach. It's very walkable, there's, you know, parks and pass throughout the island. And so that's a nice spot for everybody to know about. But back on, you know, the majority of people doing the long term, buy and hold investing, I am on the outskirts of Charleston. Okay, so I'm looking at this more entry level pricing for the area around 350 and below, I'm looking for some of the newer builds, I'm looking for houses that are not in, you know, flood zones, not within expensive HOA areas, and ones that are within the path of progress. So, for example, this Summerville area here that is continuing to grow and flourish. I'm posting things in Goose Creek by the Air Force Base Hanahan, you know, that have good school districts, I'm posting those type of properties where there's been a strong demand for that type of housing, and strong growth in that area. Michael: Love it, love it. Joe, this has been super insightful man, I'm curious to know, though, in your opinion, how can buyers be best prepared to work with you in the Charleston market? Joe: Well, I think, you know, come and visit, you know, come, come take a look for yourselves. And I'd be happy to show people around and, you know, show them the different areas, you know, back to my point about these different sub markets. Okay, so, you know, we have these islands and sub markets, and each one has its own little flavor, each one has its, you know, is unique for different reasons. So, it really depends on, you know, whether the investors, you know, purely return driven, or maybe they want to have a place they can stay sometimes when they visit, there's, there's a lot of different angles here. So it really comes down to the investors, you know, needs, and, you know, from there, we could turn them on to different areas. So, come and visit, come hang out with me, that would be one suggestion, you know, and then, you know, get, make sure to have all your ducks in the row. And, you know, make sure of course, financing, if you're going to finance a property, you know, proof of funds ready to go and be ready to pull the trigger, you know, I'll be able to do a walk through inspection, I'm underwriting these properties for repairs, I have a strong knowledge base of, you know, the rental market, and know when it's appropriate to push on that rental price. And where we can eke out some more money and have a pretty good understanding of, you know, where the activity is, and where the growth is going to be. So, you know, give me a call, you can get in touch with me, you know, my website: http://lighthousecharleston.com/ , or email me at: joe@lighthouscharleston.com , and we can, you know, further the conversation, but, you know, in short, you have to act fast, and throw your hat in the ring to get in. I do think that, you know, we had a little bit of a law, as many markets did, you know, ended December, early January, but then, you know, really started pick up this first year, lots of activity, you know, more houses are being built, you know, you know, sellers now, you know, we're trying to convince, you know, people who are ready to exit the market to do so. So, you know, there'll be more opportunities coming and so just, I'm on the MLS checking every single day, you know, what's being listed, and posting those opportunities straight to Roofstock. So you're getting the, you know, up to date information because once something's posted, you'll probably see it go pending within a day or two. You know, you'll see multiple offer scenarios. One other tool we're using, you know, we're introducing escalation clauses. So we're setting a cap on the purchase price, based on you know, what type of return you want, or you know, the deal itself where it's priced, and we're saying we'll beat the next offer by, you know, depending on the price point 1000, $5,000. And so that way you're not going in blind leaving money on the table, we're just escalating that purchase. Michael: That's great, that's great. Joe, this has been super insightful. I know I'm getting really excited about the Charleston market, definitely want to be in touch with you. Thanks again for coming on, I appreciate you. Joe: My pleasure, thank you for having me. Michael: You're welcome and I will talk to you, I'm sure, take care. Okay, well, that was our episode, a big thank you to Joe for coming on. I know, I got super excited about the Charleston market, I need to do some more research on my own. Looking forward to seeing many of you out there. As always, if you liked the episode, please feel free to leave us a rating or review wherever it is, you listen to our podcasts, and we look forward to seeing the next one. Happy investing…
Females In Business with Rachel Edlich In this episode, Rachel Edlich shares how she started as an entrepreneur, the influence her father had on her success today, her partnership with her sister, how she learned to be a successful product creator and marketer and so much more. Radical Skincare, the business she co-founded with her sister Liz Edlich, is a powerhouse skincare line that can be found in over 900 retail stores and in more than 17 countries. They also have a Brand Partner program that is empowering mostly women and some men, to be successful entrepreneurs in their own right. This was an enjoyable conversation with Rachel and I look forward to interviewing her again down the road at their next successful milestone. Also, check out their book "Get Radical: Secrets to Living a Life You Love": https://amzn.to/3jkyoFD As always, thanks so much for listening! Joe Rachel Edlich Co-founder - Radical Skincare Website: https://radicalskincare.com Discount Code: Costello10 Their Book "Get Radical: Secrets to Living a Life You Love" Our affiliate link: https://amzn.to/3jkyoFD Instagram: @radicalskincare Facebook: @RadicalSkincare YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/user/radicalskincare Twitter:@radicalskincare LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/radical-skincare Email: customercare@radicalskincare.com Podcast Music By: Andy Galore, Album: "Out and About", Song: "Chicken & Scotch" 2014 Andy's Links: http://andygalore.com/ https://www.facebook.com/andygalorebass If you enjoy the podcast, would you please consider leaving a short review on Apple Podcasts/iTunes? It takes less than 60 seconds, and it really makes a difference in helping to convince hard-to-get guests. For show notes and past guests, please visit: https://joecostelloglobal.libsyn.com Subscribe, Rate & Review: I would love if you could subscribe to the podcast and leave an honest rating & review. This will encourage other people to listen and allow us to grow as a community. The bigger we get as a community, the bigger the impact we can have on the world. Sign up for Joe's email newsletter at: https://joecostelloglobal.com/#signup For transcripts of episodes, go to: https://joecostelloglobal.lybsyn.com Follow Joe: https://linktr.ee/joecostello Transcript Joe: Rachel, welcome to the show. I'm excited to have you. I thought I might also see this, but I guess Liz is not going to be here with us. So you're going to have to answer all the questions that I have. Rachel: That's great. I'm ready. I'm Joe: Ok, Rachel: Ready. Joe: Ok, OK. First off, the company's name is Radical Skincare. Is that correct? Rachel: That's right. Joe: Ok, this is really cool because I don't have a lot of women on the show as much as I would like to have more women, because I think there's a big separation in the amount of exposure to women that are running, businesses that are successful. So, first of all, thank you so much for coming on the show. Rachel: It's my pleasure, thank you so much for having me here. Joe: Yeah. Awesome. OK, so I always like to get a back story from my guests because I think it's really important that a lot of times podcast will just kick off and people either know the guest that they don't and they'll do a little reading on them and not saying me as the host, but people that might listen to it don't know who someone is. But more importantly, I think how you got to where you are today stems from all that happened before at this point. And I think so much of that is missed on a lot of podcasts. People all of a sudden they just start talking about what they're doing today. And the newest book that they have out and all this other stuff. So if you don't mind, I would love for you to give a little bit of history and you can go back as far as you want. I've had people go back to kindergarten, so I don't care. And and since Liz isn't here, you can also, if you want, put in a little bit about that whole, you know, how it happened with her and you and the connection of all of it. So now I will be quiet and let you click. Rachel: Ok, no problem, while I was going to say how much time do we have? Joe: Yes. Rachel: It's like if I go back to kindergarten. Yeah. So, you know, so for for us, we were raised in Virginia on an 18 acre farm, and our father was a very well known worldwide reconstructive surgeon who specialized in wound healing and skin rejuvenation. And he started the burn unit at University of Virginia. He invented stere strips. He invented dissolvable sutures. So, you know, his commitment was really to science and changing the world like that was my dad and my mom was a bit different. She was an actress on Broadway. She was in West Side Story. But, you know, she basically was just God kissed her and said, you will sing. And so she was in West Side Story, but then decided, hey, I'm going to I'm going to have kids. And then she met my dad. So we were really bookended by two very interesting people. And it was my sister, my brother and I. And growing up on a farm surrounded by my father's brilliance. And we were pretty much we'd go to the hospital with him, work in the lab. We did research with him if there was ever a problem. My dad was like, we'll invent it. See, my brother, my brother broke his clavicle and he's like, we're inventing the shoulder of the perfect shoulder pads. We did. Rachel: I've done I don't know how many research papers on lacrosse injuries because I was a lacrosse player or whatever. So it was like, you know, we we really were raised in that environment all the time. And we got a very, very strong work ethic, because imagine we were basically the ones running a farm as well. So from that, you know, I ended up wanting to really follow being able to help other people. I thought, gosh, I think I might become a therapist, that, you know, that's what I'm going to go and I'm going to I'm good at communicating with other people. I think I read situations really well. So I went to college. My sister went to we all went to actually we all went to the same college. And I got a counseling degree. And then I was like, OK, well, you know, if I really want to sit in a room all day and go through that process. So I ended up running a Boys and girls club for like 800 children. And I love working with kids and developing programs and drug prevention programs and all the different things that the Boys and Girls Club provided. But at the same time, I love to be able to give back that way. I also wanted to make money. Joe: This is. Rachel: I'm like, OK, you know, I love working with children and, you know, especially where a lot of them were in really tough situations. But I said I could do that as my volunteer time. So my sister was living in L.A. and we were always super close. And she's like, well, just come move out here. And it's like, I can't move without a job. You know, it's like having all these reasons why I can't. And I was like, you know what? I'm doing it. I was like, Liz, I can't come without a job. And she's like, well, you know, I just raised money for a company. She was in money management and venture capital, and she was like, and they actually need someone and to run their customer service department. And I was like, I can do that. So, you know, you're young. You Joe: Right. Rachel: Can make me make these big moves. So I packed up my dog in my house and I moved out to L.A. and Liz and I started working together and deciding we were going to start a company. Really wanted to always at the core of us is like it has to be driven with purpose. We have to have like we always need that passion. We're very entrepreneurial because we just can't help ourselves. It's like that's just our nature. So we got into the skincare business and in 1999 and doing, you know, product development, a lot of research, science, of course, you know, coming from a science background with my father, that was that like completely made sense to us. So we started creating products for celebrities, for retailers or QVC, Aitchison, a lot of brand development. So that was kind of our entree into working together. And I know everyone's like the big question is, how do you work with your sister? Joe: It's right, it's tough. Rachel: Everyone's like, how do you guys do it? And we're super blessed. I know we're rare. We're like or like a rare breed, but we're both different in our strengths. So we are able to really complement. Each other and I think there's the bond of our family and that we look after each other. And I mean, that's been probably one of the most special things about our relationship and being in business together, kind of coming into how Radical happened was we were doing our business. We were like at one hundred and fifty million dollars and sales. I mean, we were doing amazing, loving what we were doing. And then I had my second child and I developed rosacea. So, you know, life throws in like little things to move things around, make you start thinking. And I was like, wow, you know, I've always had good skin and my skin was red, splotchy, irritated. I tried putting makeup on. It made it worse. It was the first time where I had actually had this level of insecurity. Like I'd walk into a room and it's like my face walked in first and people I'm like, are they looking at me? Oh, my gosh. They can tell. And, you know, it's like this weird thing that you go through when you're when you're experiencing how you look on the outside matter so much. So you have to like say, OK, it's how you feel on the inside. It's a this is an inside job. You know, work life is not perfect. We don't we're not going to always look perfect. Right. Joe: Mm hmm. Rachel: So, you know, how we feel on the inside is felt by the world. And I went to the dermatologist. They basically said, you'll be on medication for the rest of your life. I'm like, are you joking about it? This is like a little quick fix. You know, you're going to Joe: Right. Rachel: Give me some cream and it's going to be gone and then I'm done. Poof, right. And they're like, no. I was like, oh, great. So I ended up trying on everything they gave me. And my skin was always more inflamed, burning. It was on fire. My face was on fire. And my sister, she's six years older. And since she's not with us, I can always like make her the older sister. Joe: Yes. Rachel: But she Joe: Yeah. Rachel: Is. Joe: There we go, I knew this was going to start sooner Rachel: Yeah, Joe: Or later. Rachel: Exactly. That's what happens when we're not together Joe: That's right. Rachel: On the Joe: That's Rachel: Podcast. Joe: What she gets for not being here. Rachel: Right. Joe: Right. Rachel: Right. So I'll make sure she listens to this. So she's like, Rachel, I'm older than you. It's going to be happening to you, too, but I'm looking in the mirror and gravity is really, truly real. Like this stuff is happening. My skin is just now bouncing back the way I used to, that I wanted it to. And I said, OK, Liz. Well, I guess this is the perfect storm. This is like between the two of us. And I said we have to create the strongest skin care for antiaging, but design for sensitive skin. So thank goodness we had the brilliance of my father and his ability for science and research. And then we got together with a team of chemists and we basically said we are going to put the best of the best in the bottle. We had no intentions of selling it. It wasn't like, oh, we need to be in another skin care business. Not at all. We were like, put the best of the best in the bottle. We didn't care about the cost. We weren't worried about the margins. We weren't worried. We're just like, let's just fix our face. So we got with the scientist, we really started to look at some of the leading reasons for aging skin coming up with solutions for that and coming up with a technology which was our TRALA cell technology, where we're able to deliver all the powerful ingredients to the skin without irritation. Rachel: And after my skin, after just three weeks, my skin completely transformed. I was able to get off all my medication. I'm telling you, it was like adversity brought complete opportunity for us in that moment. And my sister, people were noticing her skin changing. We gave it to friends and family and like little bottles that were like serum moisturizer, you know, it's like in the back of the lab, we're like, okay, here you go. You got a tray. And and people were like calling us like, what is this stuff? So listen, I looked at each other and we said, you know, that's pretty radical. And that's kind of where Radical was born. And we said, you know, our dad always said, if you have an asset sitting on the shelf that no one else knows about, it's not OK. You have to share with the world because there's other people going through what you're going through. You're not in this little world of just Rachel and rosacea. There's millions of people out there that are struggling with rosacea or problematic skin or sensitive skin. And the more research we did, it was like 80 percent of women believe they have sensitive skin. And so they're very particular about what they're putting on their skin and the irritation. So we really took a lot of time and developing our products to make sure they were consciously clean, that we were delivering radical results. Rachel: So we had science behind it. You know, we did clinical on our products because we like to prove out whatever we're going to say. We want to be there with confidence. So we launched in 17 different countries, in over 900 stores and just two years. And Liz and I hit the road and started to work with all the prestige retailers and training. And the interesting thing that we found is this yearning and hunger from all the associates and customers that we talked to about that feeling of were inner self meets. Outer beauty, which is so important to us, is, you know, how we feel on the inside is felt by the world. And we've been really blessed with working with Bob Proctor, who was very close to us and a lot of personal development work where we knew that there was a method to really getting amazing skincare science, to getting radical results. But also there is a technology for creating a life you love. And so we ended up really looking at that closely and listening to people really wanting more there or there are hungry for more purpose and passion in their lives. So that was like our aha moment. And we said when we came back to the states, we're a global so we have a global footprint where in Australia, Switzerland, the UK, all over the place. But in the US, we decided that we were going to buy our products back off of the shelf. Rachel: We we wrote our book, which is "Get Radical: Create Secrets to Creating a Life You Love." And then we said, we're going to buy all of our products back off the retail shelves, take the profit that we normally give to the retailers. Take our science. Take all of our from clinical to all the press that we've gotten over the 11 years and the investment of 20 million dollars into our brand and give that as a turnkey opportunity for others to be able to create passion, purpose, health and wealth. And that's when our brand partner program was born. And we did that. That was kind of like born out of. Covid and a lot of it and and that's just caught on fire because we have the selfcare element, that purpose element. We're a movement that matters. And we always know that if we stay close to our purpose and our passion, Liz and I, we've had moments, we've gotten off track where you're not waking up feeling passionate or purpose driven. Then it's like, OK, OK, I'm going to go do that today. And that was important to us. We wanted to we want to touch millions of people's lives. And we know through our brand partner program, we can touch more people than through any retail store ever. So that's kind of our journey to where we are today. Joe: Well, there's a lot to unpack here, Rachel: I know. Joe: Because any time you can correct me, but I would I would say that this is going to be a unique episode, because for the listeners are out there that are women. This will speak to them more than it will. Guys, I don't even know if you have any men in the brand partner program. Rachel: We do, actually, Joe: Ok, Rachel: We Joe: So Rachel: Do. Joe: See, that's why I wanted to ask you. Rachel: But Joe: Ok. Rachel: It's the majority, a majority of them are women. Yeah. Joe: Ok. And then the products that you have, are they mostly all women? Are there some men? And that's why you have a couple of men and the brand ambassador Rachel: Our Joe: For that. Rachel: Our brand is very unisex Joe: Ok. Rachel: From our packaging all the way through, it delivers amazing results. We do a lot of coaching, even with a lot of the women that are like, oh, what do we offer to the man? And it's like these core products that men just absolutely love. Like we were in Barneys, we were in the men's department there when we launched, and because we did so well and with the men as well. Joe: Ok, so here's the part where we're going to rewind, because Rachel: Ak. Joe: This is this is how I think your story and there's this story and this product and how you did all of this will really help the listeners and especially the women listeners. So you came from a background that was science based because of your father. It sounds like a brilliant man. Is he still with us or is Rachel: No. Joe: Not OK? Rachel: Yeah, my father had multiple sclerosis on top of everything else Joe: Yeah, Rachel: And Joe: I saw that, and Rachel: Yeah. Joe: So I was I was so I didn't know if he was still around, but Rachel: Would Joe: When Rachel: You Joe: You Rachel: Have. Joe: Started this process of wanting to do this with your sister, was he around to help with the initial part of it? Rachel: Yes, Joe: Ok. Rachel: My my dad basically, when I moved to or before I moved to L.A., was saying to my sister, you two need to work together. Like he he's like family. You need to work together. Joe: Right. Well, that's awesome. Okay, cool. So I'm going to put a pin in that one piece of it because I have to come back to that again, because there's more questions than if I Rachel: Sure. Joe: Was listening. I would be like, OK, there's one thing that was a plus for the both of you. Rachel: For sure. Joe: So I'll get to it. I'll explain where I'm going. And I'm sure you Rachel: Ok. Joe: Already understand. Your sister was a stockbroker, an investment banker, a stockbroker, whatever. She she took that route. And then I noticed that there was a company called One World Live. Is that Rachel: Mm Joe: Correct? Rachel: Hmm. That's Joe: Ok, Rachel: Right. Joe: So this is the company that she ended up creating, purchasing, investing, one of those. Right. Rachel: Well, it was actually a company prior to that that she invested money in, and I came out and I worked for that particular company. Joe: Ok. Rachel: But One World Life we created together, and that was really driven from product to we had a lot of celebrities with where we would do merchandising for them with their product. Yeah. So that was where we really got into product development, like the the whole process of making products, whether it was weight loss, whether it was jewelry, whether it was skincare. And that's where we actually had our first experience with skincare at that time. Joe: Ok, so if I was sitting and listening to this, I'd be like, OK, how do two women that are not in this world make this jump into this competitive marketing product delivery business? People usually have some sort of experience that they initially get in that and then they go, hey, I can do this, and then they go out on their own and start it. So explain to me how your system leaves doing the investment banking piece of this. You leave what you're doing and you move out and all of a sudden you're this powerhouse marketing team Rachel: Right. Joe: That has this company. And there's a there's a gap there that I want you to Rachel: Got Joe: Fill Rachel: It. Joe: Forms. Rachel: Ok, so my sister raised money for a company that had a weight loss product. That was the company that I started working for. And I started to learn about infomercials, commercials, direct mail catalog. That was kind of where I first learned like, oh, who was right when infomercials hit in 94, it was like all of a sudden it's like, what's this infomercial thing? And so we. Joe: But wait, there's more. Rachel: Yes, exactly. Hey, you know exactly what I'm talking about, Joe: Yeah. Rachel: And I'm so yeah, so we. I worked for that company and unfortunately the people that were running the company were not doing the right things with the finances. So I told my sister, hey, heads up, my check is bouncing. She's she has investors in the company. So she ended up having to go in and basically take over the company. And that's called like you're just thrown into the waters. You have no idea what you're doing. And it was crazy. She had to sue the company, a lot of the players, and she won, which was unbelievable and won the company. So then we all of a sudden inherited a weight loss company that was doing really, really well. But, you know, we didn't have a lot of experience at the time. So it was something that I do primarily and anything like all my businesses. If I don't know something, I get really smart really quick. And I talk to a lot of people that know a lot more than me. And so like no one Joe: Right. Rachel: Will find someone that knows more than you. Joe: Yeah. Rachel: And so that's what we did. And we worked with different individuals and started to understand the business more and how media spin worked. And I had to manage the media spend and I had to managed print campaigns and I had to buy inventory for all these products. I was like, buy what I like. All right, let's let's break open a spreadsheet and start getting organized. That was point one. But I actually realize I have a I'm super strong at doing those type of like I can operationally managing and dealing with a lot of moving parts and seeing how all the pieces fit together. So, listen, I basically kind of divided and conquered with that particular product. And then we did another weight loss product where we had investors involved in that. And then that launched. And then Liz decided that she was going to go back more into the investment banking. So I took the weight loss product and I went to another company and brought our product with us and had their infrastructure supports our product. But also, it was a great opportunity for me to learn side by side with other people that have been doing it for a long time. So it was for me like that part where we I worked with another company necessarily wasn't necessarily like my happiest time, to be really honest, because a little more entrepreneurial and. But I did that for two years and I was like, I'm going to get so good at all of this. I'm going to be so good. Like I'm going to just be a sponge. Rachel: I'm going to learn. I'm going to learn. I'm going to learn until I feel like I got my arms around this, all these tentacles that were flying around me and feeling proficient in that. And that was a really graceful time of firsts. Sometimes you're feeling and that feeling of uncertainty. And I'm sure everyone up there is gone through that feeling like lack of confidence, whatever it might be in that certain area. But again, I felt like one of the things that Liz and I had done is we surround ourselves with people that are mentors that can help teach and guide and trust me, you're going to pay it forward because there will be a time when someone's going to work for you that you can teach and you can guide. And so from that, I was Liz was doing her thing. So she started is a big thinker, a lot of creative ideas. And she she she and this other person decided we're going to start this company. And she called me up and she's like, rich, like, I can't do it without you. Like I need you. You know how to get it all done. You know, I had to make it all. I'll put all the wheels on the bus and make it go forward. And, you know, you've been in the business. And I actually haven't been in that part of the business. But we're going to kind of do that business again in a different way. And I was like, let's do it in our. So that's how one world was actually created. And. Joe: And what year was that? Rachel: That was in 19, I think it was 1999 is when one world was was created. I Joe: And Rachel: Actually. Joe: When did you when did you move out to L.A. from Virginia? Rachel: 94. Joe: Ok, so five years later is when Rachel: Yes. Joe: This happened, OK, Rachel: Yep. Joe: So you've had all that time. Rachel: Exactly. To Joe: It. OK. Rachel: Learn fast. Joe: Yeah. Have. Rachel: It was like a fire hose experience, like, OK, open Rachel, Joe: Yeah. Rachel: Insert all information. Yeah. So from there, that's when one world leader was born. And we did that for we still have that company. We still have a product line that we have on QVC. And so we had a. And we really had it was the that company was going to we were looking at it as a public, the public traded opportunity to do an IPO. And it was when the technology just fell, fell apart. And we ended up having to really pivot fast because a lot of money was raised for the company. And at that point, we had we had probably almost a hundred employees. We had a lot of VC and investors. And Liz, that was primarily her responsibility to deal with them. But at that point, they just weren't investing. And unless you were a true technology, you know, like you're an app or you're, you know, so we ended up really bringing back through our direct marketing, our direct response. We had we did infomercials the whole time. So we had a lot of things going on. And that's really when we got into the skincare business, it was an infomercial of skincare. And then I developed the whole line, which had about say about 30 skews. So I did all the product development, all the research, creative and just learned, learned a lot about science, working with manufacturers, working with the chemists. Of course, we were fortunate enough with our dad for hours. But the chemists, we started to really learn about product development ingredients, raw materials, clean, clean beauty. And that kind of took us on our journey to Radical. Joe: Ok, so here we go Rachel: Ok. Joe: Is I have to ask because it's I know that even if I was listening to this and I just reframed it to be something that a guy would do, I have ideas all the time. But we stop ourselves because of things that we think are going to be roadblocks. So my first question is, let's talk about your father and the science and all of that without that piece. Some of the audience listeners might be saying to themselves, well, that's that's a huge chunk like that help having that experience, having your father to lean on, having that around you, to be able to start the process of creating products. Because if you start thinking about it, it's like, OK, I'm not going to go in my kitchen and start putting all sorts of things in a little bowl and seeing it smells nice and it works nice and right. So Rachel: Right. Joe: What would you say to any of the women listening? They don't have that science background. They don't have that father with that Rachel: Mm Joe: Brain Rachel: Hmm. Joe: And that intelligence Rachel: Right. Joe: And background. BILLINA. Can they still accomplish this? Rachel: Absolutely. So, yes, we were very blessed, and we we understand that so much. But we also know, like when we were developing products for One World Lives, I was in product development all the time. But I lean on my manufacturers. I wasn't calling my dad saying, hey, dad, like what do you think about this? Because it wasn't personal then. It was just like, oh, I'm creating products for a client and this is what they want. Some of the benefits to be or I look at like what the story is like, what is it that they're trying to say about, you know, themselves and their skincare brand. So it makes like it's makes sense. And then I talk to my manufacturer, who has chemists on staff, and I go and I sit with them and I talk to raw material houses. There's shows that you can go to that have all the raw material houses that go there that are talking about a unique ingredients that they're using. But I find a lot I get a lot from the chemists that are from the manufacturers about what's new, what's hot, what's working, what's an alternative to like we have right now that we just launched are an alternative to a retinol cream, which outperforms retinol without all the side effects. I went I researched, I talked to my chemist. What's what is out there right now? It took us it's not an overnight experience, like, oh, poof, we we just developed a product because then you want to prove the results, right? So you want to have some science. So you have confidence that if you're saying any kind of a claim, that you can substantiate that. So the process for Radical, it was with our dad, but that was like the beginning of the ideas and the science footprint. But I leaned heavily on all of the chemists to really help direct and come up with formulations that we know were going to give radical results. Joe: Ok, great, so I appreciate that answer. Rachel: Yeah. Joe: The next thing that I put a pin in my own mental brain was the money portion of this. Right. None of this has to be divulged. I just but let's say your father was a successful reconstructive surgeon, potentially. He made a good living doing that. At the same time, I know when I read doing my own research that when M.S. came around, that was also a financial burden. Right. So. Rachel: Big Joe: So. Rachel: Time. Joe: Right. So we can just let's say we eliminate that fact that he could have helped you at all. But then you have you have Liz being this smart financial person. So potentially she made a decent amount of money in what she was doing to then be able to back this whole thing. So my second question. Oh, yeah. Well, it's easy when you have a lot of money. You have someone who's able to bring in voices and start out with a chunk of capital and all of that. So can you address that both in either how it helped you and how you still think people can do it without having all of that? Rachel: So a couple of things, I think absolutely you can do it without having all of all of that and the that that we had pretty much for one world. I went to a lot of overhead because we had so many people, because it was such it was the One World Live Web site was really like the hub of what that company was. And so there was a lot of big talent being thrown at that because the VCs wanted to see a certain thing. Right. So in product development, if you want to launch a product, I mean, it can be in skin care, whatever it may be. I know that I can go and create a product with a chemist. I can call packaging companies and get samples of what the packaging might be. And I can come up with a marketing plan. And you you can get small business loans to support you on your initial growth. And I am really believe in a grassroots approach. So Radical has like our new business, which is that our Brand Partners program where we're treating that as a brand new business. So just because our our retail business we have from a global that took us a lot of years to put together and create success that doesn't come into my brand partner like I really keep those separated because I want to have this sitting and standing on its own. We could have gone to raise money. We could have, you know, tried to find people that would invest in it. But for us, we actually didn't want to have to deal with investors. We've done that. There's there is a side to having investors in your company that is a lot of work. So there is something really cool about owning your own company and you owning your own company and not having to answer to five other people and tell them what you're doing and why you know that it's on you. So. Joe: I second that, amen, I Rachel: Yeah, Joe: Say that. Rachel: Trust me, we've we've done it, we've had it where it's been investors and we now we have it where it's our own and we much prefer it as our own. Joe: Mm hmm. Rachel: And we're not willing to bring in money to fund our brand partners program because we want that to be it can be done organically. It might not be as fast as the guy that has five million sitting next to me, but does it have the heart and soul that I have? Does it does it have the you know, the credibility that my brand has? Like there's so many different things and who my audience is. So there's always ways of getting into a business without needing lots and lots of money to do it. You just have to take it slow and bit by bit and grow, you know, have a plan in place that you're you're following into doing your own projections, giving yourself like, OK, you can you can go and get private label products, which sometimes is an interesting way of testing a concept where you don't you can buy 100. You can test it on a Web site. I mean, Joe: Mm Rachel: There's Joe: Hmm. Rachel: So many different ways that you can go through your social media, Bienen, you know, you can be your own influencer and whatever it is that your passion and dream might be. So there's definitely ways of starting your business and not being like, oh, gosh, you need millions and millions of dollars to do it. Joe: Ok, great. I love all these answers, because to me, it's encouraging to the audience. And I was hoping that I even though I backed you into a corner on these questions, I know that reading part of your story and empowering women, this is important. And so that's why I want to talk about it as much as I want to make sure that we talk about your business. And trust me, we'll get the word out about Radical. But I think it's important that what this business means to you. I can tell is coming through this interview. And that's what I think is even more important, because that is really what people are attracted to, people who care about people. Right. And there's something that you keep saying that's a great saying that I'm going to steal from you at some point, but I forget what it is. But you'll say it again, I'm sure. And Rachel: Ranchero. Joe: I'll be like, OK, I got to remember that. So quickly, explain to me then the the science part of it, where if you end up working with the chemist, let's say someone out there has an idea and they want to do something. How painful and how long is that process of tweaking and creating the product? And then do products that you sell have to get FDA approval? Rachel: Ok, so no so in skin care, you have ones that are considered like over the counter, which would be an SPF. So those have to go through certain testing in the United States for skin care in the U.S.. It's actually it's pretty loose. It's actually not very rigorous at all. So we are global, so we're EU compliant. So we have a compliance person in the EU that goes through all of our formulations. I make sure they're checking it against the list of all the ingredients that are not allowed on the market or about to not be allowed on the market. It goes down to the like the raw materials, make sure they're paraben free, that they're not using any preservative systems that to be able to make certain claims. Like I can say, I'm paraben free in the U.S. It's not as rigorous. It has some things. And you can literally like look them up online, but they're not regulated. Like people are not regulating your formulas to say what's in it is OK. And think about how many you have a lot of people that make up their own skincare and will sell it even locally that don't have, you know, strong preservative systems in it where, you know, you don't know really how long they can last and that they're good for. But I always encourage that when you're doing development and you're talking to your chemists to make sure that you're being as clean as possible, there's a list on like even on our website that shows all the ingredients that we do not have in under our consciously clean tab. So, Joe: I saw that, which I Rachel: Yeah. Joe: Thought was brilliant, that there's Rachel: Yeah. Joe: No you're not hiding anything, it's all right. There it was. Rachel: Exactly. Joe: It Rachel: So Joe: Was Rachel: It's Joe: Very Rachel: Actually Joe: Impressive. Rachel: It's a resource for other people, honestly, Joe: Yep, Rachel: So, Joe: Yep. Rachel: Which is great. You know, just knowing what you don't want to have going into your product, and the chemist usually have a pretty good handle on that if you're working with a good, good manufacturer. What is regulated is the FTC regulates claims. So you can't make a product and go on Instagram and say, my product reduces fine lines and wrinkles, 400 percent and then show before and after. That's not necessarily the right one or whatever. Like that's where you get in trouble in the U.S. So they regulate that really, really closely. So you do have to be with your marketing. You have to be accurate in your claims and making sure that you're not misleading a customer. Joe: Ok, let's talk about. So now I understand that you still have the global retail business that's still happening in over 900 stores, and I had a note down here in 17 countries, probably Berklee. Now it's 20. So this is amazing. What is the team that you have? So you said you kept you keep the two businesses separate. So what is the team that's running Radical as opposed to the team that's running the ambassador brand program? Rachel: Right. OK, so we used to have a team in London, an office in London, office in Paris, one in Hong Kong, and Liz and I, we're looking at each other saying this does not make sense. And this was when we started Radical. We had definitely some big players involved, which were more on the state lotor level. And so us being entrepreneurial or we're not like corporate girls at all. So put us into a corporate environment or like what do we do here? We're like, we have to clock in and clock out. We're like Joe: Yeah. Rachel: We work. We work 24/7 anyway. Joe: Right. Right. Rachel: That's being an owner of your own company. They wanted to have this really broad footprint. And Liz and I, they were the experts and prestige and we really weren't. So we really follow their lead. And we noticed that like we we built it. We had all the locations. But you really have to have boots on the ground everywhere. So, listen, I ended up saying, you know what, we're going to buy our company back and we're going to do this in a smart way where we have distributors internationally. So like, for instance, in Australia, we work with Mekka, who's the largest skincare or any cosmetics retailer there. It's like the Safar of the U.S. and but they handle everything. I don't have to put freelancer's in the store. I don't have to do anything. They own it and they do an amazing job. And then in the U.K., I have a distributor there, and in Switzerland I have a distributor there. So my international business is very much distributor driven. So they manage their own markets, they invest in their own markets. They have certain things that they're supposed to do in order to maintain their exclusivity there. But that operates pretty much separately. The U.S. it's I have a core team that works just on the brand partners program. And it's a small team because like I said, we're doing this in a very organic way and obviously bringing people that have the experience and building a peer to peer business. So that's been super exciting. And that's that's what's worked by just having a core team that works for only on brand partner business. Joe: Ok, can you talk more about the the brand the ambassador program, just so that we can get an understanding if someone is listening to this and saying, I love this, I love the idea. They go to your website and they look at all of this. They get hit up all the time with all these other programs to sell cosmetics and skin care. It's sometimes it's a hard sell for them. They end up dropping off or they just they can't figure out how to get into something like this. And I'd like to know what your program is about so they know and then why it's different. And obviously that the ingredients that you use that's really coming to the forefront these days is that you're not putting ingredients in that can harm someone. So that's another really important thing. So can you talk a little bit about that program? Rachel: Yes, absolutely. So we kind of what I talked about earlier is that we just started to recognize that our brand is so much more than skin deep, and it always has been. It's just been listen, I speak from the place of possibility all the time. And we with all of our brand partners were like invested in their future. That's like we are invested in their future. That's why we call them brand partners, like you are our partner in this. And that's a big shift in how you are within a company, because we've created such a turnkey solution and support to help you get to wherever it is that you want to go. And we are building a very, very strong core community. We have a our comp plan is very, very simple. We noticed and the different types of ambassador brand partner type programs where there's this exclusion element, if you don't do certain things and you are not a part and our part is you are included. We're like, you can participate with us, however it works for you. So we have people that just are more like influencers are on there. You know, they're selling through their social channels and they're making great money. Then we have people that are like, oh, my gosh, I've got like I want to build a business. Like I want to invest Radical like my new baby. And you guys have handed over the keys with science, clinical backing, credibility. You've been in prestige. You have press for over the past ten years, you know, steeped in science about a movement that matters. And our company is always listen, I only see things like it has to be larger than us. Like everything we do has to be larger than us. Rachel: It's not money. It's not it's like it has to be bigger than us. And so like our vision is and goal will be we're going to be a billion dollar company. And that means that we are we are making millions of dreams come true. Millions. And that is our number one goal is to do that. So and within our community, we have like our deep dive, which we just did on Monday, where we open that up to customers or brand partners, where we do a chapter in our book and we like unpack it and we talk about it. And it's always amazing because it speaks to people wherever they are, whatever they're going through. We have the opportunity to interact and communicate and share ideas. It's great. And then we have a lot of other activities where, you know, we'll be traveling some to meet different people. And we have a shared pool for company sales where you can earn into the share pool. That's three percent of our company. So we're taking profit for all of our brand partners to be able to participate and based on whatever their performance is. So it's like they are profiting. And we have a founder's club, which is a group of individuals that are just working super hard and achieving different levels. So it's it's really a straightforward program. And we have one of the best ladies on our team that really focuses on helping individuals figure out how to incorporate that into their life, understanding comp plans. And she's like the best cheerleader in town, like you want her behind you. You know what I'm saying? She's like, come on, you got Joe: Right. Rachel: This. You know, I call her like Joe: That's awesome. Rachel: So. Yeah, Joe: Ok, cool. Rachel: And it's super easy. You can go on to our website and it says, just become a brand partner. You just click on it and has a lot of information there. Joe: Great. OK. I don't. We're getting close to the end, and I want to keep you longer than I promise. So talk to me about the book, "Get Radical: Secrets to Living a Life You Love." Rachel: Yeah, yes. So that was a labor of love. It was definitely time consuming for the both of us. Like what? What an experience writing a book. Never did we think I mean, my father is like such a. He's like published like 3000 peer review articles. Written books. I mean, it's like that's like no, no problem for him. And Liz and I like we really want to put this to paper, like we want to share through the mentors that we have met. And just the stories, because we really know that there is a technology to getting a life that you love, whether, you know, really getting those fundamentals of goal setting visualization and then what gets in your way. So the fear of failing, you know, people get stuck in making decisions like paralysis. So we talk about a lot of that throughout the story. And we bring in different mentors that share stories that are super relatable, that you can be like, oh, my gosh, that's happened to me. Oh, yeah, I've been through that. Oh, I love that. And at the end of every chapter is really a Radical recap where it gives you back the ideas of like, OK, these are the things that you may want to focus on, the questions you may want to ask yourself some you know, some guided ideas of how to get where you want to go to creating that passion, purpose, health and wealth, you know, whatever that is for you. Joe: Yep. OK. That's awesome. A question I wanted to ask earlier that I forgot, which I think is important in any partnership, because I grew up observing my father in a family business. And it's really tough when you have your own family in the business. It's tough when you are in a partner relationship because a lot of them don't work out as we know, as entrepreneurs. We've heard the horror stories. So with you and Liz, you talked about it earlier, how you both have your strengths and weaknesses. Right. And you use those to conduct this business. Do you recommend or do you have a line in the sand that says, OK, Liz, you are handling all of the financial part of this and anything that comes out of this financial related, that's your baby. I'm doing all the product stuff or whatever. So I'm not putting words in your mouth, Rachel: Right, Joe: But I'm just Rachel: Right, Joe: Trying Rachel: Right. Joe: To give you an example of can you explain how that division works? Rachel: Gosh, I wish it was that clear cut. Joe: Yes. Rachel: Like I'm like, here, take that hat. Oh, wait, wait, I'll Joe: Right. Rachel: Wear Joe: Right. Rachel: This one today. Joe: Exactly. Rachel: That's Joe: Well, Rachel: Kind of. Joe: I think the fear is, is that with businesses and partnerships, it's stuff sometimes somebody say, wait, I thought you were handling that. It's one of those things or you did it, but you didn't do it as well as I would have done. You know, so I'm trying to make sure we get this out to explain that you really have to be honest with yourself and say, I'm really not any good at marketing, so I'm not doing it. And if you don't want to do it as my partner, then we need to get somebody who does. Rachel: Exactly. Joe: So. Rachel: Well, first off, I would always say really, you know, know your family dynamics like how you operate with whether it's a brother or a sister or a family business. And we been fortunate because we we both see things. We both have the same goals, right, so I always say like, know that first, do you do you are you in alignment on what your goals are for your company and what purpose you both have in that? Like make sure you're on the same page? Because if one person sees the company for something else and you see it, then it's always going to be like this. Right? So you have to be on the same page, an alignment on your goals and your vision for what it is that you want. So that's like the biggest thing I can say. Everything else for us. We both have a lot of creative ideas. So I would say that we take our creative ideas and then I do more a lot more on that implement and manage. She does a lot more in the network. And, you know, big picture of whatever it is that we might be be doing. So it's very we complement one another. So I think you do. I think if you can make some more clear boundaries, I wouldn't say we were maybe the perfect example. We're kind of a weird group because we can just kind of work together. Well, I don't know. Maybe since we've been doing it since 1994, I think my sister and I have had maybe two arguments in business, and they went for a good quality like ten minutes and it was over. But yeah, I think having a making sure your visions are in alignment really takes away a lot of the issues. Joe: Ok, so the website is radicalskincare.com. Rachel: Yes. Joe: There is the whole retail side of the business that if any of those people are listening, they can contact you for distributorship wholesale or whatever that might be. And then there's the whole brand ambassador side, Rachel: Yes. Joe: Which is really to empower mostly I think it leans towards women, and I think that's great. But obviously, we talked about earlier that men can get involved because you said that the products are Rachel: Unisex, Joe: What was the word, unisex, Rachel: Unisex. Joe: Right. Is there anything else that I missed that you wanted to talk about before I let you go? Rachel: No, I mean, I guess back to I always just feel like you want to be part of a movement that matters, like really having a movement that matters. And Joe: That's it, I think that's the saying, Rachel: That was Joe: You Rachel: That. Joe: Keep saying, that's Rachel: See, Joe: It. Rachel: I told you it was going to happen. Joe: I love it. Rachel: I Joe: I'm Rachel: Was going Joe: Still Rachel: To get it in right at the end for you. Joe: I'm stealing it. I'm stealing. Rachel: Yeah. So that's like really what we we stand for and being a part of something that's bigger than yourself. And that's what really Radical is all about. It is we're in herself meets outer beauty. And, you know, your purpose is our promise. And that's that's what we want, you know, surrounding yourself in life around like minded people. That's just a beautiful thing. And I think that's what we we want to be able to help others with, to really get to, you know, living a life that they love and dream and going above and beyond. And so we really appreciate you having me on today. And Joe: Yeah, Rachel: I was Joe: Absolutely. Rachel: Really I was happy to be able to distinguish that I'm the younger sister, Joe: Well, Rachel: Older Joe: That's how she Rachel: Man. Joe: Gets that, too. That's what Liz gets. And you can tell her that even though we've never talked, I'm no longer talking to her. Rachel: Right. Yes, OK, we're on the same page. Joe: And I want the I want the audience, the listeners, and then eventually the viewers. But right now, the listeners that listen to the podcast, your message, what you are accomplishing with this is very sincere. And the integrity is there. I hear it in your voice. I see it in your face. So when the viewers go to watch this episode on YouTube, they, too, will understand that this means a lot to you. This is not about making money. This is about empowering people to live the life that they love and to just do great things and feel good about themselves. And it's both with having potentially a small business of their own or a large business through this. It's about making some extra money on the side. It's it's about feeling good, both financially, physically, inside and outside. And I think it's awesome what you're doing. And I just I could tell. Like, I interview a lot of people and the comment maybe it's an L.A. thing, but the calmness in you is not this sales motivated conversation that we're having. It's a conversation from the heart that you love what you do. This is something you wanted to do to help us. And it comes across. So I wanted you to know that that I was hoping so much that it would be this and not be this powerful woman who is just like sell, sell, sell, sell. And if you get this and you come into our program and you can drive a Mercedes in a year Rachel: No, Joe: And Rachel: No, no, Joe: All Rachel: No. Joe: Of that stuff. So this was wonderful. I loved Rachel: Yeah. Joe: It. Rachel: Yeah, well, we're not those girls, Joe: Yeah, Rachel: We're we're definitely heart centered, so. Joe: Perfect. I will put in the show notes all the ways to get in contact with you, the website and all of that, if there unless there's any special spot that you like to communicate. If there's I don't know if your Instagram fan and that's where you like to do it, or just like people to contact through the company email. But now's your chance to tell me Rachel: Yeah, Joe: Or the audience. Rachel: Either way and I was also Joe: Ok. Rachel: Going to do a code, so people Joe: Beautiful. Rachel: That are listening that Joe: Yeah, that'd Rachel: They Joe: Be great. Rachel: Can they can get a 10 percent discount on our products, but also we can send them an eBook. Joe: Beautiful. Rachel: So, yeah, we'd love Joe: Ok. Rachel: To do that so we can do Castelo 10. Joe: Beautiful, I'm going to write it down because I'm old and I'll forget Rachel: There's the old. Joe: It. All right, Castelo, 10 is the code to get 10 percent off. I love Rachel: That's Joe: It. Rachel: Right. Joe: Ok. Beautiful. Rachel, thank you so much. I appreciate your time. This was really cool. It was an honor to speak with you. I love what you're doing. And again, please tell Liz to that. I don't know. I don't ever want to talk to her. Rachel: Ok, Joe: No, it can't. Rachel: I'll call her right now. Joe: Yeah. They say you had one chance to come on Rachel: You Joe: Joe Rachel: Know, Joe: Show Rachel: You had Joe: And you Rachel: It, Joe: And you blew it. Rachel: She Joe: And Rachel: Missed Joe: We. Rachel: You missed the best podcast ever. Joe: Well, we had so much fun and Rachel: We did Joe: Ok, Rachel: The clip. Joe: Thank you so much, and I wish you all the best and I look forward to seeing your progress with everything. And it was really an honor to talk with you. Rachel: Thank you. Thank you so much.
Dr. Shawn Dill and Dr. Lacey Book talked with me about so many things happening in their lives. Amongst the many of subjects we discussed, we talked about their book "None of Your Business: A Winning Approach to Turn Service Providers into Entrepreneurs", their organization the Black Diamond Club and their franchise business, The Specific Chiropractic Centers. It was great to talk with such a power couple as I like to call them and learn how they navigate through both their business and professional lives. The Black Diamond club is about helping service providers learn all the necessary tools to be successful while offering a community of support and like minded individuals. Their book gives you the tool in hand, to do the same. The Specific is their chiropractic franchise organization that helps chiropractic offices use a proven formula for growth is their specific realm of expertise being knee, chest, upper cervical specific clinics. I had a great with with Shawn and Lacey and I hope you get as much out of this episode as I did. Thanks for listening, Joe Dr. Shawn Dill & Dr. Lacey Book Owners - The Specific Chiropractic Centers Website: https://thespecific.com/ Founders - Black Diamond Club Website: https://blackdiamondclub.com/ Their mutual website: https://shawnandlacey.com/ Lacey's Info: Website: https://laceybook.com/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/drlaceybook/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/drlaceybook/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/laceybook/ Shawn's Info: Website: https://shawndill.com/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/drshawndill/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thespecific/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/dr-shawn-dill/ Emails: shawn@blackdiamondclub.com lacey@blackdiamondclub.com Podcast Music By: Andy Galore, Album: "Out and About", Song: "Chicken & Scotch" 2014 Andy's Links: http://andygalore.com/ https://www.facebook.com/andygalorebass If you enjoy the podcast, would you please consider leaving a short review on Apple Podcasts/iTunes? It takes less than 60 seconds, and it really makes a difference in helping to convince hard-to-get guests. For show notes and past guests, please visit: https://joecostelloglobal.libsyn.com Subscribe, Rate & Review: I would love if you could subscribe to the podcast and leave an honest rating & review. This will encourage other people to listen and allow us to grow as a community. The bigger we get as a community, the bigger the impact we can have on the world. Sign up for Joe's email newsletter at: https://joecostelloglobal.com/#signup For transcripts of episodes, go to: https://joecostelloglobal.lybsyn.com Follow Joe: https://linktr.ee/joecostello Transcript Joe: Sean, Lacey, thanks for joining me on the podcast. I'm super excited after I went and looked at everything that you guys are doing. It's like I probably need a week with you on air. I'm exhausted, actually, from my research, but I'm excited about this. So welcome to the show. I appreciate it. Shawn & Lacey: Thank you so much. Boy, that's that's a I never heard that before, I don't think we hear stuff similar to that. I would say, though, it takes a little while, it takes a little while for us to explain what we do. Sometimes Joe: Yeah, Shawn & Lacey: I get that. Joe: There's a lot going on, so I'm going to jump right in, I might have a different approach than some podcasters. For me, it's really about the origin of where you came from, because I think that's missed a lot of times. And I like people that are listening to the podcast as either entrepreneurs that are in the throes of it and trying to figure stuff out or they're they're on their way up or people that are on the sidelines going mad. Do I really want to do this? I hear how hard it is to be an entrepreneur and and I'm one myself, so I know what it's like. And I would love to at least get your history first. And if you want, you can obviously you probably need to both do it separately because you you didn't all of a sudden disappear together as this good looking power couple that you are. And so I'd like to hear a little bit about each of your story and then the connection and then we'll go from there. And I promise I won't miss anything. I have a ton of notes so either of you can go first, whoever wants to. Shawn & Lacey: Well, Sean is a couple of years on me, so I'll let him go first chronological order, chronological order. Well, I'll accelerate through the early stages of my entrepreneurial development. Joe: Not too Shawn & Lacey: I Joe: Much, Shawn & Lacey: Graduated. Joe: Though, not too much, because it's I like to know who you were when you grew up, like it's Shawn & Lacey: Ok. Joe: Important because I think, you know, people just think all of a sudden, hey, Sean, at least he had a lucky. They they had rich parents and they grew up in an affluent neighborhood. And Sean's trajectory was to be a chiropractor the moment he was born. And and I think it's important for people to know that it's not that easy. And not everyone most of us don't come from that sort of direction Shawn & Lacey: Mm Joe: Early Shawn & Lacey: Hmm. Joe: On. Shawn & Lacey: Ok, well, my both of my parents worked nine to five job superimportant, and I would say we were sort of just middle class, maybe just above middle class. Not definitely not upper middle class. I distinctly remember for my age, wanting designer jeans, Jordache jeans, and I was allowed a pair of Jordache jeans. But my friends, they wore Jordache jeans every day. And so unless I wore the same jeans every day, I wasn't wearing designer jeans every day, hated to wear the lead jeans. I worked one of the things that super important as I worked during high school, shining shoes at a country club in Fort Wayne, Indiana. That was sort of my first real job making money. Of course, I mowed yards, but nothing like nothing super sexy from the entrepreneurial space. I was I had a job. But what I what I noticed was that the members at the country club, they were able to play golf on Wednesdays and Fridays and Saturdays and Sundays. And there I was shining their shoes every day and something sort of sparked in me that made me wonder how they had that lifestyle. I know that you've had conversations with Steve Sims, a similar thing. I think that people people have that sort of that moment when they question what makes you so different than me. Shawn & Lacey: So that was sort of my moment. I fell in love with this idea. I was like, I think that if you truly have made it in my life, you're 16 years old. I thought, like, well, then you could have a country club membership and you can play golf on Wednesdays and Fridays. That became something that was super important to me at a very early age. Now, I didn't play golf at that time. I was shining shoes, but then I went on. My cousin was a chiropractor. This was during the 80s. And the chiropractic space, the 1980s are known as the Mercedes 80s because insurance reimbursement was high. My cousin drove three BMW, so I think he had two BMW cars and he had a BMW motorcycle and his license plate was three BMW s three BMW. And I thought, well, that's really cool. You must really do well. If you if you're a chiropractor and a chiropractic experience, then my cousin really encouraged me to go to chiropractic college, go to chiropractic college. I'm very passionate about chiropractic. But what I realize is that just like culinary art school, when you go to culinary art school, you're being taught how to be a great chef and every great chef's dream is to own their own restaurant. Joe: Yeah. Shawn & Lacey: Well, the same thing in professional trade schools. If you go to become a dentist, a chiropractor, medical doctor, lawyer, they teach you how to be a great practitioner. And of course, every practitioner's dream is to own their own place. But I didn't really have the business education that would be necessary to be successful. I graduated chiropractic college at the age of twenty four. I knew everything there was to know in the world at twenty four. I mean you just Joe: Yes, Shawn & Lacey: That said, Joe: Absolutely. Shawn & Lacey: You know everything. So I moved from the United States to Costa Rica. I didn't speak any Spanish where Costa Rica. The primary language is Spanish. But you know, you figure that out later. And my first year in business was absolutely terrible. It was just it was terrible. I ended that year wondering if I made the right decision, one to be a chiropractor, to to be in business. And I had to make a decision to either, like, bite down hard and press forward or to throw in the towel. I could probably go back to the United States and get a job working for someone else. Thankfully for it, for my sake, I decided to press forward one more time. I caught a break. I was invited to be on a television show. My Spanish was still pretty terrible, so the show was pretty terrible. Imagine you're interviewing me and my English was so broken that you were trying to piece it together right like that. That's what we did. But then slowly I began to get my bearings with the language. I got better and my business blew up. We ended up having four chiropractic offices in Costa Rica. That was sort of my first taste of that magic called scale. I was like, wow, so we could do that, end up coming back to the United States. Shawn & Lacey: I have two daughters and wanted to get them into school here and then here I really that's when I got to the states. That was kind of why would accelerate that. But it is important to know where someone came from. That's really when that sort of entrepreneurial bug started to really develop. I opened up one office and had that bug to scale. We eventually created a chiropractic franchise called the Specific Chiropractic Center. We began consulting with chiropractors and then consulting outside of the chiropractic space. We've worked with some great many. Tours like Jay Abraham and David Meltzer, who began to encourage us to look at other verticals, so we started to get into the software space, we are in the digital marketing space. We do events, but they're all interrelates. It's not like a hodgepodge of things. They they're all sort of interconnected and that sort of then that acceleration on the on the backside, you know, we've just been super blessed. I think a lot of people that really have their game together did well during the pandemic. And so we were blessed through this through this year. And then, of course, you know, looking ahead, trying to prepare the business for what's to come. Joe: So all that was amazing, and I appreciate you doing that for me, and I think the audience will really appreciate it. The only question in the whole thing that I had, and I always hate interrupting, so I just kept quiet, was why Costa Rica? It seems like such a random thing to say. And even though I want to go there and I want to possibly live there, I get it now. But at twenty four y. Shawn & Lacey: I just told the story last night, and I remember we also have a podcast and I appreciate when podcast and they say I'm actually going to tell you the answer to that. The real answer, when I was in St. Louis at Chiropractic College, my roommate, he was dating a girl and eventually became a fiance. And her grandmother was the president of Nicaragua. And my roommate was like, we should go down and visit Nicaragua. I was like, yeah, let's do that. So we stayed. We ended up staying at her grandfather on the other side of the family at the grandfather's house. And we were invited to have a couple of meetings. We were exploring. I wanted to go to Nicaragua and we sat down with a guy and very nice. And he explained he talked to me and he said, Sean, you don't want to come to Nicaragua. Not safe, not good, not stable. If you like Nicaragua, for some reason, you should go to Costa Rica. And I was like, OK, well, that guy, his name was Popl tomorrow. And there's a book written. It's called Everybody Has His Own Gringo. Pulpo was Joe: Well. Shawn & Lacey: Oliver North's contact in this whole Iran Contra affair. I was sitting in his guy's office and he told me so Jamal told me, you don't want to come to Nicaragua, go to Costa Rica. I did. A couple of months later, I went to Costa Rica. Costa Rica was just absolutely beautiful. I was honestly, too, trying to escape something that's interesting from the health care space. I was trying to escape the advent of managed care. This was nineteen ninety five. Managed care was coming on the scene. People didn't really know what that was going to mean for the providers. And so I was like, look, I mean, again, I know everything. The best thing for me is to go to Costa Rica. First it was Nicaragua and then I was convinced by some very powerful people that I should go to Costa Rica instead. Joe: That's amazing. All right, well, and did you end up buying any property there because by now everyone wants to be there and everyone wants to own property. Shawn & Lacey: I did, but I sold that property when we moved back to the United States. That was the other thing is that I worked very hard. You know, we may dive into that at some point here in our discussion as an entrepreneur. So people always ask me, like, wow, you're in Costa Rica like, what's your favorite beach? And honestly, the answer is, I don't know. I was working like a given. We have a home in Florida, but if you're working, you're not at the beach. So just because you live in Florida doesn't mean you're like out renting jet skis or doing all of these things every day. Yeah. Joe: Yeah, well, great, well, that's awesome. Well, I appreciate you doing that, Lacey, it's your turn now. I want to hear about you. Shawn & Lacey: Wonderful, and I'll fill in some of the gaps that Joe: Perfect, Shawn & Lacey: John glossed Joe: Perfect. Shawn & Lacey: Over when the two of us came together, so for me, I grew up a little bit differently. I actually grew up in Silicon Valley in Northern California. And you think Silicon Valley and you think just that the tech capital of the United States and it really was like that. I remember when I grew up, I literally grew up around the corner from Netflix when it was in one little tiny office and I could walk there from my home. But that didn't mean that I grew up with a lot of money. And so majority of my life, we actually lived off of a single family income. My mother worked. My dad, my father was a lot older and so he retired pretty early on in my childhood. And so my mom was really solely responsible for the money in our household, which especially in California, didn't go very far. Joe: The. Shawn & Lacey: And so for me, I actually started working since the day I turned 14. We got some permission from the school and I worked at a really horrible but really fun second run movie theater, probably doing things that no kids should have done. But it taught me a lot, taught me a lot about customer service and really being able to take care of people. And honestly, I can say to this point, I've never stopped working since that day. I've always been a go getter, I think for me, because we didn't have a lot. I always just had this desire for more. And on top of that, I a lot of people out there may relate to this because I wanted more. I had a rebellious side of me. I always wanted to to to break the limits, break the mold. And so I thrived in almost every job I had when I went to undergrad. Since I paid for it myself, I worked three jobs and went to school to get it done. And so I always had that spirit in me, but I never had the knowledge or the intellect or know how. Shawn & Lacey: I don't know how to put it all together. And I ended up going to chiropractic school. And along that road is when I met Sean and just I was just as passionate about chiropractic as he was and ended up we ended up working together in that office that he started in California. And then from there, that's where the two of us started our relationship and started working together as well. And I remember at that time, I we want to talk about beginnings. We tell this story a lot because that was in two thousand and eleven and we were in a six hundred and twenty five square foot apartment. I had a ton of debt coming out of school. Like carpenters come out of school with around two hundred and fifty thousand dollars in debt. He had just come to the United States quite a few years before that, but was still, I mean, really starting from scratch. So we had the six hundred twenty five square foot apartment and we had the two girls that are two kids there as well. I Joe: Scott. Shawn & Lacey: Mean, it was teeny tiny. And we always tell the story of our green couch because at that time we had no money. We had to get a hand-me-down couch from another student that was at the school that moved away. And that's what our girls slept on. And so oftentimes I know and I love that you said that because people automatically think, well, maybe they maybe they had opportunity. I didn't maybe they were blessed. Maybe they grew up that way. Honestly, not only did not grow up that way, but in 2011, it was actually worse. Right. We didn't know what we were going to do with the our actually I didn't know I should say I was the one in the relationship that really struggled with a lack of mentality. Sean has always thought very abundantly. And so we really had to work that out in our relationship to make it work. But the other thing about us is not only were we passionate about chiropractic, we're passionate about helping other people. And so that's what allowed us to go on that trajectory of having our chiropractic franchise and then becoming consultants for people that are service based entrepreneurs and really growing to where we are at today. And that's how we end up sitting here before you. And so it was it was a lot of work, a lot of struggle, a lot of wrong decisions, but mostly just a desire and a tenacity to continue to reach more people and make an impact. Joe: Yeah, and it's so I understand why Sean got into it, because he saw his cousin with the three BMW, right. It made sense. What triggered you to take that path? Shawn & Lacey: You know, it's really interesting, I was actually thinking about when he was telling that story. It's funny because I've heard that story many times. But where I grew up, because because it was Silicon Valley, I was surrounded by money, surrounded by it. There was a lot of entrepreneurs. There are a lot of people in the tech world. The high school that I went to, I, I drove the Cruddas car in the whole parking lot like it was so bad that it was like of those felt ceilings. You remember Joe: Yes. Shawn & Lacey: When they had that and the glue had melted Joe: Yes, Shawn & Lacey: Off. So the Joe: The liner Shawn & Lacey: Felt Joe: The Shawn & Lacey: With Joe: Liner starts Shawn & Lacey: The liner, yeah, it would be bumping my head Joe: Right. Shawn & Lacey: And I would have to tack it up. And I think for me, I would I would boil it down to one word and it was contrast. I was able to see what those what that life could look like Joe: Mm hmm. Shawn & Lacey: In stark contrast to where I was. And so I always wanted to have the opportunity in my own life like I saw like that my that my friends had. And it wasn't that I grew up in a bad household. My parents were amazing and phenomenal. But it's just when you grow up around that, you go, how do I get that? What do I need to do? How hard do I need to work? And so I think that a lot of that came down to it for me. Joe: That's great. So, Sean, real quick, you you and I are probably close to the same age, I might even be older, but the we had parents from potentially the Depression era. Right. Or at least my mother Shawn & Lacey: Oh. Joe: Came from that. So it was always even though they were encouraging, my father was more encouraging for some reason, it was just in his DNA. My mother was like the safety thing. Like, No, you just got to get a good job, work hard, go to school, go to whatever. And every time I wanted to dip my toe in an entrepreneurial pool, she was always like, Are you sure about this? Even as I got older when I was literally being successful doing various companies that I opened. So Lacey said that her parents were very supportive. How about you and your your parents? Shawn & Lacey: You know, my parents, and it's not that her parents were not supportive, but probably my parents were more supportive of of of just sort of the idea of being an entrepreneur. However, right now, as we are speaking, my parents don't really know what we do. So I still ask all the time, what do you guys actually Joe: Hey, Shawn & Lacey: Do Joe: I Shawn & Lacey: Exactly? Joe: Can't I can't blame them, because if you look at the websites and the events that you guys are like, my head is spinning, so I get it. Shawn & Lacey: But I I also was lucky that and I just think there's about people I think if you have a conversation with somebody and you dive deep enough, superstars in life have superstar characteristics and they exhibit superstar characteristics early on, most people don't realize that they are they themselves are Joe: Yeah. Shawn & Lacey: Superstars. But if you look at people that are successful, they have sort of these sort of interesting ways that they were successful. So I suppose I excelled in academics. My mother told me as an adult that there were many times that she was like, hey, are you going to study for that test? And I was like, now? And that she she was like, it was a dilemma as a mother because she wanted me to fail so I would learn the lesson. Joe: Yeah. Shawn & Lacey: But I never did. And she's like, somehow you just kept getting through. And I got great grades and I was successful in music. And so they at least in the area of music, I when I left high school, I either wanted to be a professional soccer player or a professional musician playing the saxophone. I went to Indiana University, which has Joe: Great Shawn & Lacey: A very Joe: School, Shawn & Lacey: Good soccer Joe: Great, Shawn & Lacey: Team and a great music program, Joe: Great. Shawn & Lacey: And it took me less than a semester to figure out that I wasn't going to be able to do either one of those. And so then I had to kind of figure out. But they were always very supportive in the sense of do what you want. I think also to a contrast, I didn't have any school debt compared to Lacey's two hundred and fifty thousand. So my parents at least, you know, they were they were, though, of that mindset. Right. You know, buy a house, save money, pay for your kid's education. That was the mark of success. And I was I was the beneficiary of that. And they were also very, very supportive. I will say to I think actually I'm more like you, Joe. Yeah. Yeah, Joe: Oh, yeah. Shawn & Lacey: Actually, Joe: Ok. Shawn & Lacey: Yeah. My my father was born in nineteen twenty seven Joe: Oh, and my Shawn & Lacey: And Joe: Father Shawn & Lacey: So. Joe: Was born in nineteen twenty nine, so. Shawn & Lacey: Yeah, and so I actually grew up and my mother, my father, it was in his DNA to just to just to just love one on me and like just say you can do these things. My mother was actually the worrywart. Joe: Yeah, Shawn & Lacey: And Joe: Exactly. Shawn & Lacey: So I always say she was one of those people that could could find the worst case scenario and anything. Right. And and that and I don't know if you can relate to that, but I meet a lot of people that, yeah, I Joe: Gosh. Shawn & Lacey: Grew up that grew up with somebody. And so it would be like, OK, but if you do this, here's what could happen. Right. So it was a it was an interesting, I think, balance that the two of them played in my in my life and I was in the middle of it. And so for me, I wasn't like Sean. Like I instead I pushed back and try to do everything as independently as I could. Right. And so it was very different, I think, growing up. Joe: God, it's so nice to meet someone who had the same dichotomy of the father and the mother, and it was she was so protective and so fearful because Shawn & Lacey: Yes. Joe: She they they had an alcoholic father who left. They had just there. Shawn & Lacey: My mom, too. Joe: Yeah. They just scrounged for everything. It was just it was devastating for them when they were young. So she didn't want any of those. She didn't want me to take any chances at all. But I was the middle child. I was the one that just constantly bought the system. And she just Shawn & Lacey: Yep. Joe: My poor mother, I from God. Man, old Shawn & Lacey: I Joe: Man. Shawn & Lacey: Know I said I told my mom, too, I don't know how you how you did it with me, No. One. And then we fed into their worrying, Joe: Mm Shawn & Lacey: Right, Joe: Hmm. Shawn & Lacey: Because Joe: Yeah, Shawn & Lacey: We kept bucking back. Joe: Yeah, Shawn & Lacey: So, Joe: Yeah, well, Shawn & Lacey: You know. Joe: That's that's awesome. So, OK, so you meet and it's is it twenty eleven when you well you met before then but twenty eleven is when you kind of really started this relationship and partnership. Shawn & Lacey: Yep. Joe: Is that true Shawn & Lacey: Yeah, Joe: For Shawn & Lacey: We met in 2006, Joe: Ok. Shawn & Lacey: And then I think we started dating like end of 2010, yeah. Joe: Ok, and you had one chiropractic location out in California. Shawn & Lacey: Yes. Joe: Ok, so what is the conversation that happens that you say, OK, we can do more than this and we can open up either other offices of our own or we've created such a successful practice that we could actually duplicate this and franchise it? I don't know what came first or how, but I'm Shawn & Lacey: Let Joe: Interested Shawn & Lacey: Me give you an idea Joe: Because there's Shawn & Lacey: The Joe: Many Shawn & Lacey: Answer Joe: Business Shawn & Lacey: To Joe: Out Shawn & Lacey: That. Joe: There that, like, I have a entertainment booking agency and I have systems in place that if I got ran over by bus today, literally someone could walk in and everything goes in order Shawn & Lacey: It's Joe: And Shawn & Lacey: Great. Joe: It's all planned out and it's totally franchise able. If I ever wanted to do that, I'm probably too old to do something like that. So but how did you how did this conversation happen? Because I looked in all the locations you have in some of them, you have multiple one of the locations. You have four offices alone in it, right? Four. Shawn & Lacey: Mm hmm. Joe: So you guys really blew this up. And I'd love for the audience who has this maybe in the back of their mind. How does someone go about this conversation and then take those steps? And I know that's part of what you also do in your training. So we're going to get to all of that. But this interests Shawn & Lacey: Absolutely. Joe: Me as well. Shawn & Lacey: So I think even if someone is listening, we are two people, but anybody listening is probably had this conversation with themselves as if even if you're one person, sort of this, you know, white right shoulder, left shoulder, good angel, bad angel. However you want to configure it. I my role in that, that is that my mindset always has been one of superabundance. I'm one that is the opposite of the risk of, you know, this is all the bad things that can happen. My position is always like, yeah, but this is all the cool stuff that could happen if it went the other way. And that's sort of where my my focus goes. Lacey can share that hers is is different and how it's different. But I always thought that man, we could just figure this out and then really what that the desire was for me was to reach as many people as possible. That was one of my big lessons in Costa Rica. I remember I had four offices in Costa Rica. There's four million people in Costa Rica. And what I realized was that four million at that time. There's probably more now. But what I realized is that I wasn't even making a dent. I was like, we've got four when we were busy, like my office was seeing two hundred and fifty patient visits, patient transactions per day, Joe: Oh, my Shawn & Lacey: Five Joe: Gosh. Shawn & Lacey: And a half days a week. People were pouring in. And I'm like, and we're still not making it that we're not we're not getting close like we're not. We would need to have such an incredible infrastructure to really reach more people. And that was sort of a big transition for me. I think that people that want to scale in the sense of multiple units, franchising, etc., as you come to this realization that you're just one person, seven billion people on the planet, this podcast, the reason why we agree to come on it is because it amplifies our voice, the people that are listening to the podcast or the people that don't normally listen to us and vice versa. And so the effort is gaining leverage by being able to scale your message for me and being in the service world to reach more people. So that was always in the back of my mind. I wanted people I wanted to just reach more people. Now, then, your question. So that's the pre answer, because then your question is like, so what does the conversation look like? And that's not as easy, because if it were that easy, everybody would do it. I always say people that are in the service world that have a passion to reach a lot of people, that is the answer. Well, then why don't they do that? Because here's the scariest thing to do before he adds sort of what that transition look like is that in the service world, if we are if we really believe that we are impacting and changing people's lives fundamentally by whatever it is we do, whether you're a massage therapist or a hairstylist or whatever you do, like you feel like the person on the other side of the transaction, that their life is radically changed as a result of your doing it. Shawn & Lacey: Don't you actually have an obligation then to reach as many people as possible? And I'll add to that and scale, because this is the problem. If you were run over by a bus and you hadn't put the systems in place, then the entire thing stops with you. Even the people that you are currently serving, they just all of a sudden don't have a way to continue on. So that's always been in my mind. Now, going to lazy and saying, yeah, let's just open up a bunch of those with zero money that is not necessarily very well received. And so she can tell you. Yeah, and people ask us all the time where you guys work together, you do everything together, you live together. And so very early on, I mean, one of the reasons I fell in love with Sean is his his ability not just to be just a visionary, but his ability to be a strategic visionary, like to see so many moves ahead, because the way that I grew up, I was taught to look at the very thing in front of you. Shawn & Lacey: Right. And so it's a very different way of going about and doing business. Not to say that I'm not a risk taker, but I just do it differently. And so we were very lucky because people saw the model that Sean had created with that original office and fell in love with it. It was all cash, no insurance, a very specific type of technique that we do. And they said, I, I want in on that. I want you to teach me how to do that. But here's the problem. He was still working in the office seeing patients with me. And it doesn't matter if you're in a relationship with somebody working together or you're in a partnership with somebody working together. What we learned very quickly is that we were doing the work of one person as two people, super inefficient. And so he's like, we need to we need a scale. We need to grow. But I'm being selfish. And I wanted him to stay and work in the office with me. And so I had a life coach. She was Russian. So she was very straightforward. Joe: Yes. Shawn & Lacey: She and she said she she didn't have a filter. And she literally said to me one day, she said. I want you to know that what I'm feeling is that you're holding Sean back from being able to do the thing that he's good at. It's like so crazy. Why Joe: Not Shawn & Lacey: Would you say Joe: Me, Shawn & Lacey: Something Joe: Be Shawn & Lacey: Like that? Joe: Right. Shawn & Lacey: Come on. And luckily, I don't I'm not an individual takes things personally. And so I went home to Sean and I said, you know, Cachalia, my life coach, she said this crazy thing to me. She said, I'm holding you back. And he looked me dead in the face. And he said, You are. And so the very next day, that's when he started doing his thing. And he never came in the office again. And because I'm an executer and I'm really good at that and I'm great at systems and infrastructure, that's my superpower. And I recognize that. And I recognize that he's a strategic visionary by having that separation and allowing us to do what we were strongest at, I think, was the catapult to allow us to scale that business specifically. Joe: And that is such an important thing that you just said, and I think it's the biggest problem with partnerships and like you said, even though you're married and you're also partners in a business, I think I learned this from a couple of restaurant owners that I'm friends with that are no longer in the business together. But just because one of them retired was that they had very strategic like a line in the sand. And this is your side of the room and this is my side of the room. And one of them was all front of house and the other one was all the back and part of it. And it was they never crossed those lines. And I think that's important to maybe like you said, you make a list of your superpowers and you say, OK, here's all the things I'm good at. I'm going to take all of that on my shoulders as part of the business. And do you agree or disagree? These are all the things that you're really good at. You take all those. I think that's a recipe for success. And it's so important that you said that. I think that's missed a lot. Everyone they Shawn & Lacey: It Joe: All Shawn & Lacey: Is. Joe: It's just like this is a big pot of soup and everybody wants to stir and you Shawn & Lacey: Yeah, Joe: Can. Shawn & Lacey: Yeah, let me get some Joe: Yeah, Shawn & Lacey: Of that you don't know what you're getting, Joe: Yeah, Shawn & Lacey: Right, Joe: Yeah. Shawn & Lacey: And I'll tell you, Joe, the other thing that we did when we learned that lesson is we translated that into our are the personal side of our life. And so we created very clear lines and roles and things that we do in our household as well, because that that we want that to be just as successful as our businesses. So it's never a question of who's doing the laundry or the dishes or responsible for shopping or paying the bills. It's never like, did you do that? Why didn't you do that? We know who does what. And that helps actually in that personal side of things as well. And it was just a great lesson to adopt on both ends. Joe: See, I knew I loved you guys. This Shawn & Lacey: Gus. Joe: Is good looking power couple, just I mean, Joel and my life partner were the exact same way. We've been together for twenty two years. We we do Shawn & Lacey: All that. Joe: Stuff together and we just it's just a perfect situation. But it takes like anything. All the little stumbles along the way. But you figure it out. But it's I love that. That's awesome. And I bet you're the only person who has the run of the house is Dexter. Shawn & Lacey: Oh, Joe: You're Shawn & Lacey: My gosh, Joe: Right. Dexter Shawn & Lacey: Yes. Joe: Gets away with anything. Dexter is your Shawn & Lacey: Well, Joe: Right. Shawn & Lacey: How could you tell he's here, somebody somewhere Joe: There is. Shawn & Lacey: He was scratching at the door and I just had to tell texting our team, get the dog. Somebody needs to get the dog. Joe: That's Shawn & Lacey: Yes. Yes, he has the run of the house. I'm sure you could tell. Joe: Right. That's awesome. OK, so what's the time frame when you opened up the second office or you started the franchise, however that happened. Shawn & Lacey: I'm just going to clarify for you some of these questions, my sense of time, that is my weakness. So if if Laci said it was three years after or said it was three months after, I would agree with either answer. So I'm going to have to if you ask me, how long have you known Laci? I Joe: I Shawn & Lacey: Don't know. Joe: Am exactly the same way. When did you meet, like where? I don't remember. Sorry. Shawn & Lacey: Do you want to know how bad is actually at time that he he thought it was the most brilliant idea and somehow he talked me into it for us to get married on my birthday, which also happens to be New Year's Eve. So he will never forget the dates on any of those. Joe: That's Shawn & Lacey: Talk Joe: Not Shawn & Lacey: About a smart businessman. Joe: True and that's not fair. She gets ripped off on two other holidays. Shawn & Lacey: No, that's false, and it's the world's biggest party on her birthday Joe: Oh, Shawn & Lacey: And Joe: My Shawn & Lacey: On Joe: God. Shawn & Lacey: Our anniversary, it's the best. So Joe: Oh, God. Shawn & Lacey: So two thousand nine is when people started coming and saying, I want to get in on this model. Joe: And Shawn & Lacey: And Joe: I'm Shawn & Lacey: We had. Joe: Sorry and I hate to interrupt you, but when you say Shawn & Lacey: Yeah. Joe: People because you brought this up a couple of times Shawn & Lacey: Oh, Joe: Now, Shawn & Lacey: Yeah. Joe: I don't understand who those people would be. They wouldn't necessarily be patients. They would be people that are in the chiropractic industry. And they look at you as being, wow, you guys are killing and how do I do that? Shawn & Lacey: Yeah, and I should probably I think for context, I don't know if you said it in your in your intro, your story, but when Sean came back from Costa Rica, because literally he was starting over, the first thing he did was take a job at the chiropractic college. I don't know if we had mentioned Joe: No. Shawn & Lacey: That before. Joe: Ok, perfect. Shawn & Lacey: And so he was at the chiropractic school and he was teaching chiropractic philosophy. And then he was teaching like the one real business class that they had at the school. And so that gave him exposure to a lot of other chiropractic students, people that were graduating to see and understand the way that he viewed business and what we were trying to do with the specific chiropractic centers. So those are the individuals that said, I want to be part of this. I see the vision. I see where you're going. I love the model. And early on, we actually had it created as a licensing model. But that just gets a little bit sticky for anybody out there that's trying to scale in a licensing model. You really have to have ownership, I guess, and all of them. But a true franchise, it takes time, money, energy and a lot of good advice to to create, especially in health care. So we had about six offices that were under the licensing model and we went moved into a legitimate franchise and then grew from there in two thousand and sixteen. Joe: Ok, and so how many do you have now? Shawn & Lacey: 13. Joe: Wow, that's incredible. Shawn & Lacey: And they span from we have to in Hawaii and then they go all the way to Tennessee. So far, this Joe: That's Shawn & Lacey: One. Joe: Incredible. Shawn & Lacey: No. Joe: Yeah, you guys are killing it. I love this story, and that's why I said I was so excited to have you on and I was like, I'm going to need hours to interview these two. There's just like so many things. OK, so the most important thing, not the most important thing, but one thing I want to touch upon, because there's I'm sure the people that are listening to this and eventually watching the YouTube version of this are going to say, how do I learn more? That is not going to get covered in the short time that we have together. So you put out a book called None of Your Business in twenty nineteen. And it's a winning approach to turn service providers into entrepreneurs. And I love that because even when I listen to a little bit of your interview with Steve Sims, it Shawn & Lacey: You. Joe: Was it was like it's more than just providing a service. You are it's not transactional, right? It's more of like you're doing something you're passionate about. And the ultimate thing at the end is that, you know, you've helped somebody. It's Shawn & Lacey: Mm Joe: That Shawn & Lacey: Hmm. Joe: To me, that's what it is for me for sure. With everything that I do, it's like, how can I help did this? How can I help you, you know, those sort of things. So I feel like that's the approach that that I get from the both of you and what your book is about. So can you talk a little bit about the book? Shawn & Lacey: Yeah, the book definitely has more in depth, our story, plus the fundamentals that we teach from from marketing sales mindset, and we've had to do a ton of work together as a couple on mindset mindset. You can have all of the right instruction and do all of the right things, but your mindset could blow that. And part of that is exactly what you are talking about. Sometimes service providers shoot themselves in the foot because they want to help a lot of people. And that becomes overwhelming to the point that that desire to serve destroys the business. And so you have a business hand and a service hand. Basically, these two hands are coexisting, but they really can't meet because they they they are they are the antithesis to the business hands. Like, we have to make money. The service hands, like, well, we should just give it away for free. And so how do you reconcile that and be successful? And ultimately, you know, it all circles back to if you really do have this wonderful service that can change the world, the fuel that makes it go as a successful business in all businesses, every single business in the world, the sole reason for their existence is to make a profit, because if there is no profit in the business can exist and then people can't be serviced, can't be helped, can't be changed, can't be impacted. And so service providers really have a hard time with that. And so Joe: Oh, Shawn & Lacey: That's why Joe: Yeah. Shawn & Lacey: The book. Right. And fundamentally, before we wrote the book, the premise was, is that the world's greatest service providers in the world live in relative obscurity. We don't know, you know, and I'm not knocking him. I've had the opportunity to meet him. He's a phenomenal guy. But the world doesn't know what kind of doctor Dr. Oz is Joe: The. Shawn & Lacey: And whether he's good. But he's on TV and that makes him, in our eyes, have a degree of reverence for him or belief and credibility in him. But there are people that are phenomenal musicians and artists, practitioners, hairstyles and everything, but nobody knows who they are because they refuse to embrace the business concepts that would bring their message to more people. And so that's why we wrote the book. Joe: And you hit on another thing that even at my age, it took me forever to not feel like making money was this dirty thing. Right. And our mutual friend, David Meltzer, he talks about it in such great ways that he expresses how you've got to help yourself so you can then help others. Right. You have to make sure that you and then your family and it's just changing. That whole dynamic of making money is not an awful thing and not a dirty thing. And just it I don't know. It's it's such a it was such a struggle for so long. I just I felt like, yeah. Let's just give it away. Like, I'll do this for pennies. I just want you to be happy and I can't it's not sustainable. Shawn & Lacey: Yeah, you can't give what you don't have. Joe: Yeah. Shawn & Lacey: I mean, and that's a lesson that we've learned many times over. I mean, you can't you can't serve out of abundance if you don't have abundance. I mean, it's very difficult. And that's the best way to reach a lot of people and make a bigger impact as to be is to be financially stable or financially full because it allows you to go out there and do the things that you need to do in order to reach them. And so that's what we that's our passion is to help service entrepreneurs to really fall in love with that idea so that they can not only touch the people and help the people that they're trying to serve, but that so they can get out of it the life that they desire to Joe: Yeah, Shawn & Lacey: Write because Joe: Yeah, Shawn & Lacey: They deserve it. Joe: Yeah, Shawn & Lacey: So, Joe: Yeah, and Shawn & Lacey: Yeah. Joe: Yeah, that's it, they deserve it, it's people Shawn & Lacey: Yeah. Joe: Don't think they deserve to have this success and Shawn & Lacey: Right. Joe: Whether it's business or financial or family or whatever it might be, it's it's amazing. The specific dotcom is all about the chiropractic offices and all of this is the franchise piece of that. Is that Shawn & Lacey: The Joe: Correct? OK, great. Shawn & Lacey: Correct. Joe: So we've already talked about that. So then we have this is where it gets complicated. And this might just be because you had certain websites before the websites and then you kept so you have you have one in together, right. So you have Sean and Lacy Dotcom and Shawn & Lacey: Yeah. Joe: Then you have Sean del Dotcom. And then on top Shawn & Lacey: There's Joe: Of Shawn & Lacey: Also Joe: That. Shawn & Lacey: Makes it look like we need to Joe: Oh Shawn & Lacey: Clean all Joe: Yes. Shawn & Lacey: These up, no. Joe: So it's just so and at the end I'm going to do this and all the show notes and everybody will know where to find you everywhere. So it won't matter. But so is it important to talk about Sean and Lacey Dotcom and Sean Del Dotcom at this point, or is it better to talk about the Black Diamond Club dotcom? Shawn & Lacey: Like Diamond Club Dotcom. Joe: I mean, we could talk about it all, I just don't I Shawn & Lacey: Yeah, no. Joe: We only have a little bit more time, but I want to make sure we get through everything and I want to also make sure that we promote the August event coming up in Carmel, Indiana. So let's talk about Black Diamond Club, because that'll segway into what you're Shawn & Lacey: Hmm. Joe: Doing with that organization, the events that you have and all of that. Shawn & Lacey: Yes, a black diamond club is the place where service entrepreneurs go to receive instruction or marketing sales mindset. But I think more importantly, support and accountability. Six hundred and twenty plus service providers that are all there sharing best practices. One of the things that people always talk about that the fast food drive thru concept is not a restaurant concept. It's a banking concept. Banks really don't. Few banks have that little tube thing that goes back and forth. But they were the ones that introduced this banking from your car, the restaurant industry. It was a swipe and deploy like that's genius. Can we put it in our and McDonald's and then they don't have to get out of their car and come in. And I always say, like, think about how much you could learn if you weren't just surrounded by people in your industry like you. You found out what other industries were doing well. And then you actually thought about how can you apply that into your industry? And that's really what Black Diamond Club is about, is looking at what's working in the world. You know, e commerce. We don't sell things. Shawn & Lacey: We sell a service. But still, you know, people in e commerce, they really get social media, advertising, Legian, they get email, follow ups, they understand retention. So if you are looking at how can I improve that, maybe it would be worthwhile looking at things that they were doing. And that's what Black Diamond Club really, really is all about. It's a great place. Never will you be talked down to, never will you be looked down upon. But also, I think really important. It's a place where you can come and also say, hey, guys, I had my biggest month. I collected two hundred and fifty thousand dollars in revenue this month and everybody will celebrate you as well. That's part of that, too, is we don't know when you're saying, like, the mindset around money. Oftentimes we're afraid to tell people how well we're doing because we don't want to be shot down, especially by someone that we hold in high regard or that is close to us. So we've tried to create a community where we can foster that high energy and help service professionals to to go out and reach more people. Joe: Ok, so you have the specific and you have this chiropractic franchise and you're building this amazing business. When do you decide that? Wait a second. This is something that is goes well beyond chiropractic and chiropractic offices. You are building a model of success. So all of a sudden, one night you're sitting down at dinner and a glass of wine and you go, hey, wait a second. We're once again, we need to expand our mind and say, this is this is too narrow. Obviously, we're helping all of these chiropractors build successful businesses and being part of our franchise. But we can actually take this a step further. We can create a black diamond club that actually works with all forms of entrepreneurs. So is that sort of how this came about? Shawn & Lacey: Well, I wish it was that easy or simple, but I like the glass, I Joe: See how I put Shawn & Lacey: Use that Joe: I Shawn & Lacey: Now. Joe: Put Shawn & Lacey: Why Joe: All Shawn & Lacey: Didn't Joe: Those Shawn & Lacey: We Joe: Words Shawn & Lacey: Have wine? Joe: In? Shawn & Lacey: I think I think first and foremost, from very early on, like all of the business principles that Sean taught were not, you know, from the old ways of chiropractic thinking, it wasn't from our profession and from our industry. In fact, very early on in our relationship, when we were still struggling financially, he wanted to hire a business coach and he had been teaching out of Michael Sportsbook yourself solid book for many years to all of the chiropractic students in learning how to build community and really attract their ideal client. And so he came to me one time and again in my mentality, I was like, there's no way we're ever going to be able to afford that. We can't we can't handle that. And he said we'll figure it out. The money will come. And we figured it out. And Shawn was able to become a book yourself, solid certified coach. And that was kind of the first movement in going, man, this stuff that's outside of our profession, in our industry translates really well into what we do. But, hey, business concepts are business concepts and they actually translate into any profession. So we always had those thoughts. But really the story goes that there was another individual, another group in chiropractic that was very negative, that based on people that talked down to people that didn't support their individuals that were in the group. And one day Shawn was just like, we're just going to create the exact opposite of that, the exact opposite of that. And that's what we did. And that's how Black Diamond Club in a nutshell, got started. And we want it to be everything. That group was not so that people could have a place to go, where they could grow, reach more people, be supported and not be ashamed. Joe: That's great. When did you start, like nine o'clock? Shawn & Lacey: Twenty sixteen. Joe: Wow, so you're Shawn & Lacey: Hmm. Joe: Already busy and you just said, let's the heck with it, let's tax something else on the plate. Shawn & Lacey: It was a need and, you know, if you listen to the people, they'll tell you what they need Joe: Yeah. Shawn & Lacey: And if you have the skill set to fill that gap, then you should. And that's what we did. Joe: Perfect. How about tell us about the summercamp twenty twenty one that's coming up on the 13th and 14th of August in Carmel, Indiana. Shawn & Lacey: Well, this is edition number five of Summercamp, it was started by our good friend Tristan Qof. He had created this event separate from us that had nothing to do with us. And he wanted to create an event that brought together chiropractor's and expose them to entrepreneurs, which really fits our brand. But that was an idea that he had birthed. The very first edition was held in Las Vegas and the keynote speaker was Grant Kardon. And a Joe: Well. Shawn & Lacey: Lot of people were like, oh, wow, how did you get greencard on? The second edition had a stellar lineup. Brian Tracy was one of the keynotes, had multiple keynotes. Tom, Billu was there. I mean, it was it was an all star lineup. It was starting to grow. And Tristin at that point was a one man show. And so we saw his his his struggles in trying to run around and put on events of that caliber. And we were like, hey, Lacey really gets scale and process and organization and we could really help you. And so he was like, look, why don't you just acquire me? So we acquired the company and we kept Tristant on. And then we did audition number three in Miami with DJ Abraham. Roger Stone spoke Joe: Resum, Shawn & Lacey: At that one. Also, Roger Love, Joe: Yeah. Shawn & Lacey: Audition number four last year, right in the middle of the pandemic in person, we had Jordan Belfort and Eric Thomas headline. And then this year we're celebrating our fifth year. Carmel, Indiana's just north of Indianapolis, just just north of Indianapolis. We have David Meltzer. We have Patrick. But David, who's all over the news right now with this Trump and Obama debate, we have Steve Simms's speaking, Chris Winfield, Jen Gottlieb, John, ruling from Gift. This the super Joe: Well. Shawn & Lacey: Pac lineup. It is all about helping service providers. These are these are speakers that normally you would hear at an entrepreneurial Joe: Mm hmm. Shawn & Lacey: Conference. But it's it's helping expose service providers to these concepts and helping them understand how to apply them in their business so that they can reach even more people. Joe: That's incredible. I have no idea what the cost of this thing is, but just the fact that David Meltzer is there. Shawn & Lacey: I Joe: I Shawn & Lacey: Had. Joe: Had the opportunity to spend a full day with him in his office in California. Joellen and I went out and literally shadowed him from nine o'clock in the morning. And then later on, we had drinks that night and met his wife. And it was just the most incredible thing. And that the positivity that comes from him and Shawn & Lacey: Yes. Joe: It's just amazing. So that alone is I don't even know what what it cost, but that alone is worth the price of admission, just that alone. Shawn & Lacey: Well, I'm going to throw in there I don't I don't even have a link to this, but one of the things that we'll be putting out here in the back half of the year, so if people plug in with Laci and and social media, we are we are collaborating with David and we are putting on a two two day, three night mastermind on a private island in the Caribbean in December. So it'll be myself and Laci and David Meltzer trapped on a private island. So that's great. You'll have us locked there to be able to help you to ask any questions. I mean, probably Laci mostly just being having cocktails. I'm sure David will be happy for everybody's going to want so when he's there. But that's something we're super excited about, being able to collaborate with him. And he's just like you said, and one day imagine two days Joe: It's. Shawn & Lacey: And imagine, you know, your dinner is together. Yeah. You're doing everything together. So we're super excited about that. And we'll have information out about that very soon. Joe: That's cool, because we Joellen and I like to go away during the summer because we don't really have family here in Shawn & Lacey: Oh. Joe: Phoenix, Arizona, so, hey, Shawn & Lacey: Yeah. Joe: Maybe you'll get stuck with us for that trip. Shawn & Lacey: I would love Joe: All Shawn & Lacey: That Joe: Right, Shawn & Lacey: Would not Joe: Cool. Shawn & Lacey: Be a bad thing. Joe: No, not to be awesome. Yeah, I'm sorry. I actually missed you guys. You were here in Phoenix in March, right? Shawn & Lacey: Yep. Joe: You ran an event here. So you. Shawn & Lacey: That was our first time in Phoenix in a long time. Joe: Oh, Shawn & Lacey: Yeah, Joe: Yeah. Shawn & Lacey: We do we do three events a year. We do one on marketing, one on sales, and then one around money mindset. And we typically like to kind of move them throughout the country because we've got clients Joe: Sure. Shawn & Lacey: From coast to coast. So Phoenix, that's where we were doing our Money Mindset workshop. Joe: Now, let's Shawn & Lacey: And Joe: Call. Shawn & Lacey: We shout out to Phoenix, you guys really had it together. It wasn't super restrictive. We have been very pro keeping our events going during this time. And Phoenix was very cooperative. We had a really good time there. So Joe: Yeah, Shawn & Lacey: It really sounds like a great place to be. Joe: It is, but we they get in trouble because there they are a little overzealous when the data is said, take your mask off. And I went to the Shawn & Lacey: Well. Joe: Gym and I got a lifetime, literally. I walked in. Not one person that I'm Shawn & Lacey: Yes. Joe: Like, there's there's no on ramp, folks. What's going on? It was ridiculous. I was like, you're telling Shawn & Lacey: That's Joe: Me, Shawn & Lacey: Funny. Joe: Oh, is there anything else that I missed? What's the best place to get in touch with the both of you or the specific or Black Diamond Club? And again, I'll put it all in the show notes. But do either of you like people to reach out on Instagram, any of that stuff? What works for you? Shawn & Lacey: Social media is great, you can reach me and Sean Black Diamond Club dot com, that's my email. Yeah, basically we try to be here's one thing that I've learned is that as I've been around more successful people. You mentioned Joe: David Shawn & Lacey: David Meltzer. Joe: Is. Shawn & Lacey: I specifically asked him, I was like, you're giving your personal email out all the time, all over the place, national television. You don't care. How does that work? And I just found, like, super successful people are hyper responsive. That's why they're that's why they're successful. And so this is me getting over that. I'm giving my personal email shonen at Black Diamond Club dot com. Yeah. Hit me up. And if there's any way that I can provide value to your life, I will be more than happy to do that. I'm usually I usually like maybe once or twice a year, send out an email to just saying, you know, tell me what I can do for you if I can do it within reason and on this day I will comply. So likewise, if it's an within reason and I can get it done quickly, I can't take on a project, but if I can get it done quickly, make the ask, I'd be happy to help. And we're on all the social media platforms. Sean Delisi book. I bet you could guess my email address. COVID-19 Club dot com super easy. And if you want any more information, Black Diamond Club dot com is the best place to find about all the things we're doing. Joe: That's perfect. One question I didn't ask during the book conversation was I know authors when they write a book, they say it's a struggle like it's a hard thing to do. It's not as easy as people think. How how easy was it or hard with two of you writing the same book and and how did you figure out who's writing what? Or did you just sit down together? It's just something that came to my brain that I wanted to ask that question. Shawn & Lacey: I'm going to shameless plug, and if I can help you, although you're very well established, you don't need my help. Tucker Max from Scribe, Joe: Oh, yeah, I know, yeah. Shawn & Lacey: That's all. So that's how we do. The book is a chain of the chain of command on this was Abraham sat us down in his office and said, you need to write a book. And I was like, I was like, no, it sounds like a terrible idea. And he was like, well, there's a lot of ways to write a book. We were introduced to Tucker by Tristan Sharp, who I mentioned earlier. We hit it off. Tucker was like, let's just get this book done in the process with Scribe is painless. I mean, they really do have it down. People that read that book after knowing me, they say it's kind of you get to pick, but the book is written in my voice. And so people are like, yeah, I can hear you. It's we don't have an audio book. If we did, I would probably be the one that reads the book. But super simple. We just collaborate on our ideas. You meet with the scribe people, they get the thoughts out of your collector right out, Joe: Yeah. Shawn & Lacey: Put it on the paper and write it. I highly recommend if you have a book in, you use Scribe. Yeah, well worth the money because you'll just it just amplifies your voice again. Joe: Yeah, that's great. It's so funny, I know Tucker's program, and I actually I think I started doing it and I was like, do I really have a book? I mean, so who Shawn & Lacey: You Joe: Knows? Shawn & Lacey: Do you do an. Joe: Is there anything else that I missed that you wanted to speak about before I let you go? Shawn & Lacey: Not me, I think you did a great job, Harry. A lot Joe: All right, well, cool. Shawn & Lacey: A lot of real estate. Joe: I was it's you you are both very busy, so I was very nervous. I got so many things I want to ask and we'll probably have to do this again because there's there's Shawn & Lacey: Oh. Joe: There's more. But thank you. Thank you both so much. I really appreciate you being on the podcast. I want that event in August to have a bunch of my listeners hopefully show up. So thank you again. I really appreciate it. And I wish you both all the success in the world. Shawn & Lacey: Thank you. Thank you for having us. If your listeners show up, we promise that we will make them feel right at home. Joe: Perfect. Thank you so much.
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In his new book, C-Roc offers life-changing lessons in personal transformation by asking yourself What Are You Made Of? This powerful question will ignite within you a thrust to greatness! Learn how to overcome painful past obstacles and achieve a fulfilling life where you're in command of your future. If you're ready to shoot for the stars, C-Roc says, "Thrust is a must!" Strap in and get ready for the ride of your life. Mike's latest book: https://amzn.to/3wwkTX5 CEO - People Building, Inc. C-Roc's Website: https://www.mikecroc.com/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/mikeycroc/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/mikeciorrocco YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCGWHuKojqZfcXmvGCAi_t1Q LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/michael-ciorrocco/ Email: info@peoplebuildinginc.com Podcast Music By: Andy Galore, Album: "Out and About", Song: "Chicken & Scotch" 2014 Andy's Links: http://andygalore.com/ https://www.facebook.com/andygalorebass If you enjoy the podcast, would you please consider leaving a short review on Apple Podcasts/iTunes? It takes less than 60 seconds, and it really makes a difference in helping to convince hard-to-get guests. For show notes and past guests, please visit: https://joecostelloglobal.libsyn.com Subscribe, Rate & Review: I would love if you could subscribe to the podcast and leave an honest rating & review. This will encourage other people to listen and allow us to grow as a community. The bigger we get as a community, the bigger the impact we can have on the world. Sign up for Joe's email newsletter at: https://joecostelloglobal.com/#signup For transcripts of episodes, go to: https://joecostelloglobal.lybsyn.com Follow Joe: https://linktr.ee/joecostello Transcript Joe: Ok, welcome, everybody. Today, my guest is Mike "C-Roc" Ciorrocco. I'm really excited to have this talk with him and I know you're going to enjoy this. Mike, thanks so much for coming on. I appreciate it. Mike: Thank you, Joe. I'd like to start every interview that I go on with gratitude and just really express that to you for allowing me to come on and share with you. And thank you to your audience for listening and showing up. Joe: Absolutely, man, I love that gratitudes a huge thing in my life, so I'm right there with you. I appreciate it. I think it's important that everyone has their back story makes up sort of what they've become in life. You know, it doesn't define who they become. But there is something about what has happened throughout your life leading up to where you are now that has molded this person that you've become. And I Mike: Right. Joe: Am interested in that. And and I always start with this, just like you always start. What is it? What are you made of? Right. That's what you Mike: They Joe: Start Mike: Had to turn your head sideways, I love Joe: perfect! Mike: It, you know, now, you know, I came from a broken home. I don't remember my parents together, Joe. I grew up around a lot of broken people, alcoholics, drug addicts, people suffering from anxiety, depression. My grandmother committed suicide after taking too much anti anxiety or depression medication. You know, a lot of things I went through as a kid just watching just destruction. And, you know, I think that decisions we make and Focus's that we have either go towards living and surviving or destruction. And I was seeing the destruction part and I wasn't OK with that. And I didn't want to accept that. So I would always try to help people switch around even from a young age. I was just not OK with what I was seeing. And, you know, my mom when I was three or four years old, I just remember her always telling me that I inspired her and I was going to be a leader. And I think subconsciously, subconsciously, she was doing that because she knew what was going on in the family and knew that I was gonna have to deal with some things. And so I had that programmed into me. So I was always just looking for people to help, looking for people to show them a better way and not buying into what they were telling themselves. And so, you know, that's just something I experienced at a young age. And really when it came down, what lit my fire and what I made of, I would say, is rocket fuel. Because when I was eight, my mom was moving on to her third marriage and I wasn't really up for going into another man's house and learned another man's rules Joe: Hmm. Mike: And but decided to give my dad a try who was moving on to his second marriage. And at that time, you know. I broke my mom's heart by doing that. I didn't know that at the time, but she told me later on that, you know, she cried herself to sleep at night when I left and I was our first child, you know, and when I moved to my dad's, everything seemed fine at first. But after three years, you know, during that three years, there was a lot of conflict. You know, there's a when you had step parents into the mix, any time that stuff happens. The kid is the only link between the past relationship and so a lot gets taken out on the children and anybody that's been in a broken home that dealt with child support, custody battles every other weekend, things that parents jealous, things like just everybody that's been through that knows what I'm talking about. And so a lot of that time they're in from eight to 11 hours, experience a lot of emotional, psychological abuse threats, things like that that were really probably not directed towards me, but came my way. And at nine years old, I would sleep with my baseball bat a lot of nights Joe: Wow. Mike: Because I was scared. And no kid should have to go through that, through that, of course. But that's what went into making me look. I went through these things. I went through court, child psychologists, to see if I was mature enough that at a young age to figure out who I wanted to live with, like all that kind of stuff Joe: Make Mike: And. Joe: Your own decisions, all of that, that crazy. Mike: Yeah, Joe: Yeah, yeah, Mike: Yeah, Joe: Yeah, Mike: And seeing parents fight Joe: Yeah. Mike: And, you know, just just not not happy environment, and so that's what went into me. But the thing is, is that I was always on the right side of the track. Thank God. I was always looking at how can I be better not being accepting of it. Let me look at the bright side of things. Let me look at, OK, what is this doing and how can I take advantage of using this to a better life? So one weekend I was coming home from my mom's house Joe: And Mike: And Joe: So Mike: I Joe: I don't mean to interrupt. Was this Mike: Noticed Joe: All Mike: For. Joe: In Maryland or all back on the East Coast or. Mike: This is in Pennsylvania, outside of Philly. Joe: Ok, cool. Mike: Yeah, Joe: Ok. Mike: So so my mom was living in Maryland, and you know what, I got to about 10, some 10 years old, give or take. I was coming home from my mom's house one day, one weekend after being there and my stomach was in knots. I was anxious. I don't want to go back. And my mom was saying something was wrong. She questioned me and I told her, you know, when you go through abuse, anybody that's been through abuse, you can probably relate to this. That one you don't just like to share because you're afraid that people won't believe you, too. You kind of you're so accustomed to going through it, you're not sure how bad it really is. Somebody on the outside would be like, holy cow, you're dealing with that really. Joe: Yeah. Mike: But as you're going through it, you just think it's ordinary. Another thing, maybe you're embarrassed that you let it go on for that long. And then the weirdest thing is that you're actually concerned with your abuser. You're like, what will happen if I share this to them? Joe: At. Mike: You know, just a weird thing. So I finally came came to the realization that I need to share that my mom said, you know, I'm going to get you out of there. I'm going to file court papers. You don't need to be going through that. That's not ordinary. You need to, you know, in a better situation, she said. But if you do if I do this, you need to stick to your guns. You've got to be like really, really firm because they're going to try to talk you out of it. And in life, when you believe in something, you've got to stick to your guns, man, because people will have agendas and they're going to try to talk you out of it, move one way or the other. And at the end of the day. If you do that, you're not going to live the life you want to live, so she reminded me that, you know, 10 years old, you know, filling my head with great stuff, you know, and I went back home that day and waited and waited weeks went by and waited for those court papers to be delivered. You know, I just knew it was going to happen. And I didn't tell my dad about it, of course. And then finally, one day I come home from school and the tension in the house, you could feel it like it was something was up. And I knew what the deal Joe: Mm Mike: Was. Joe: Hmm. Mike: I had to feel the first. I thought I did something wrong. You know, I'm looking around like, what did I do today? He had his papers in his hand. My dad did. And I knew, like, oh, here we go. And he told me to go to my room. Now, my dad was my hero. He had a successful masonry business, very hard worker, big forearms, rough hands. Joe: Yeah. Mike: You know, you tell he's a hard worker and he always cared a wad of hundred dollar bills in his pocket. And I thought that was the coolest thing and had a rubber band around Joe: So Mike: It Joe: Did Mike: And. Joe: My partner, it's so buddy. Mike: Yeah, yeah, it must be the last thing Joe: Yeah, and. Mike: He would always show me the money, and I thought it was a cool hundred dollar bills, Joe: Yeah. Mike: You know, so he came back in front of me and I didn't get into the discussion with him because my mom said, stick to your guns. So he proceeded to tell me how my mom would have guys coming in and out. Why would you want to go there? You have it made here. You have everything you need. They're poor. They don't have anything. You know, my mom was I mean, we look at the houses. Twenty five, thirty thousand. Our house broken down cars in the driveway. You know, we went on vacation to the Jersey Shore. Joe: Yeah. Mike: But we stayed in a rundown motel, one room for kids, two adults, and we were I just remember just the other day, we were actually able to bring some friends with us sometimes, which just makes it like just I don't even remember how that worked. And we would take black trash bags as a suitcase. So, you know, share my story. By the way, back in the day, I was kind of embarrassed by that. I just didn't like to share that, you know. Joe: Yep. Mike: But I started to realize that the more you share your story, the more impact you can have and the more people that can relate to it and maybe change your life for two Joe: Yep, Mike: Or millions, Joe: Yep. Mike: You know. So I started sharing that. But just to wrap it up real quick, so when I did confirm that my dad took that wad of hundred dollar bills out of his pocket, peeled one off, crumpled it up and threw it at me and said, if that's the case and you want to move there, you're going to need this when you're living on the street with your mother one day. And I remember that 30 some years I lived off that spark that was lit right there because I'm stubborn, my shirt that I think is, say, Joe: And. Mike: Stubborn, perversely unyielding, it's a good thing when it's on the right thing. But, you know, I was like, I'm not going to let that happen. And so 30 some years, I was driving off that spark until two years ago. I really subconsciously I was doing that. I really realized two years ago, wait a minute here, there's something magical that's going on. My life keeps going on its upward trajectory. No matter what happens, no matter screw ups, let downs, disappointments, what is happening here and what I found, which I wrote in my book that's coming out Monday, May 3rd on Amazon Rocket Fuel, I was taken everything that would stop normal human beings or slow them down, store it in my fuel tank instead of my truck, would weigh you down and converted it into rocket fuel for my future to become unstoppable. And I found that and I realized, wait a minute, this is not just a concept. This is an this is a law. If you do this, you really are unstoppable to live in the life of your dreams until you're plucked from this planet. So that's why I decided to write this book that Grant Carter wrote the foreword because it was so powerful. I got to get this message out to people. So that's a little bit about the story. There's you know, that's the short version, actually. Joe: No, that's all good. That's exactly what I wanted, the only piece that I still need to figure out is what did you do? How did you figure out what you wanted to do in life in that middle section of where people go to college or they get a job? Or what Mike: Yeah. Joe: Did you do during that time? Mike: Well, I played football and I didn't drink any alcohol or party all through high school, I played football, baseball wrestled, but football was my love Joe: Mm hmm. Mike: And I just I always thought about I want to go to Ohio State, play football, because I just love their team. I watched them play Michigan all the time growing up. And I never grew tall enough, never grew fast enough Joe: I feel your pain. Mike: That. Yeah. So five, six and three quarters, you got to be really, really fast if you're five, six Joe: Yeah. Mike: And three quarters. So I decided to go to Division three. I played football in college study business. But when I got to college, Joe, I lost my focus and I started chasing girls and party in which I never did before. And it was like Disney World first, you Joe: Yeah, Mike: Know what I mean? Joe: Yeah. Mike: And I just lost, man, I four, five, six, seven years in that range. I was just it's all I cared about was parties where the girls at and I need to be around people. And so that's that's the lead up to that. And then eventually I met my wife, who just the commitment to my wife straighten me up. And I was off to the races. I think that my thing with my wife right now, I joke with her all the time, is I have to outsource. I have to earn her spending on Amazon and deliveries to the house. So it's constantly like this. The other day she's like, I look I go up in the kitchen and there's a piece of decking, like the composite decking. Joe: Oh, you know Mike: We Joe: That Mike: Have Joe: That's Mike: A wood Joe: Going Mike: Deck. Joe: To be redone. Mike: And I'm like, I already told you, oh, not right now. It seems like I already had somebody come over measured Joe: Oh, Mike: On my car and drive back down into the cave. Joe: That's Mike: I call this my studio, my cave. I got to go make some money now. Joe: That's so Mike: A Joe: Funny. Mike: Great motivator. Joe: That is awesome. All right. Well, that's where and was college. Mike: Salisbury University in Maryland. Joe: Ok, and then ever since you've stayed in Maryland, Mike: Yeah, Joe: But Mike: I Joe: Now Mike: Moved Joe: You're Mike: To Joe: In Mike: Connecticut Joe: Ocean City, Mike: For a period of time, Joe: Yep, Mike: But we moved to Ocean City Joe: Yep. Mike: Now. Yep. Joe: Which is beautiful. I love it there. OK, cool. Yeah. And I'm Mike: Thank Joe: On the East Mike: You. Joe: Coast. I'm originally from New Mike: A Joe: York. Mike: Cool, Joe: So. Mike: Cool. Joe: So this leads right into the question that since you're going to do the decking, are you still doing. Are you still in the mortgage business because that's your. Mike: Yeah, Joe: Yeah, Mike: Yeah, Joe: Ok. OK. Mike: Yeah, we have a have a division that I run with three best friends, they take care of the day to day operations Joe: Yep. Mike: And it's a large division under our nation's lending. And we run it like our own business. And it's great people, great culture. It's just phenomenal. Joe: And Mike: So. Joe: You've been doing that quite a long time, right? I've saw Mike: Yet. Joe: You've gotten rated as number number one in Yahoo! Finance are right. I mean, you have. Mike: Yeah, so 2006, I got into it and started as a loan officer and just went from two employees and started a branch and vision and two employees up to 40. Joe: Wow, that's incredible. OK, cool. So when did you make this shift of and you talk about this in one of your videos about sharing your story and you share. You also mentioned it when you were giving your story, how important that is. And when did you make this when did you allow yourself to say, OK, I have this business and I have great partners and people to run this business? When did you decide to at least start your company now with what you're doing with your podcast, in your book and everything? What was the trigger for that? Mike: Yes, so early, twenty, nineteen, my stepfather, George, she took over from my dad when I was 11. He was a great guy and he passed away in twenty eighteen and a heart attack suddenly. And I wrote about this in the book, the story about how he found out and everything. It's it's you know, but but at the end of the day, he had a passion when he was passionate about something like football, baseball, hunting, fishing. He would get up and just go nuts, like deep voice, like everybody couldn't, like, really understand him. He was like so passionate, like they would be taken aback by him. And when he passed away, you know, a couple of weeks after he passed away, I had this passion or energy, something spirit come inside of me. Like, I just felt different. And I realized that I wasn't playing a big enough game in life. You know, I was doing well in the business and the mortgages and all that. But it just that's not the game that I was designed for. I was playing small and I started to realize, wait a minute, I need to open myself up to other opportunities, because if I just focus here, this is where I'm going to stay. And I was having truths that I was telling myself and beliefs that I was telling myself is that this is it for me. This is I'm stuck, you know, Joe: Mm Mike: And Joe: Hmm. Mike: I don't necessarily love the mortgage business. It's great and all that. But the end of the day, I just had a bigger, bigger calling. And so I started trying to figure out, OK, how can I get known in this calling of building people? Because that's what I actually do at the mortgage business. It wasn't the mortgage business. It was I was building people. I was helping develop people. And so I said, how can I get known more in a bigger, bigger scale mystate instead of just my town? Then I was like, that's not big enough. I'll come up short. How about the country and then the globe? And then I was like, you know, what? If I start really expanding my mind, I'm like, if there's aliens, which I've never seen one, but if there is, let me see if I can get aliens to know who I am and really go for that and then come up a little short and I'll be all right. And that's the way I started thinking about things and started trying to impact and share my story with tens of millions of people, hundreds of millions of people. How can I do that? And I started to obsess about that. And that's when the podcast came. The book idea came and and I just started networking like an animal and going on. You know, I've done three hundred interviews in the last year. Joe: Oh, that's crazy. Mike: So just really lean into it and that's how it all started, and then now I'm into tech, into the tech world where I'm developing a tech product. I co-founded the company. And also we have other we're creating a tech portfolio of other co-founders, non tech entrepreneurs that have ideas that think that they can never do it. They usually go to the grave with those Joe: Mm Mike: Things. Joe: Hmm. Mike: We're bringing them into the world and giving them the resources they need to actually co-found their companies and creating unstoppable people. Because my mission, Joe, is all people are unstoppable to live in the life of their dreams. And so everything I do, I filter through that mission. Joe: It's so cool, man, and it's so funny because you hit it right on the head with with the same thing with me, it's like you don't have a successful business. But I know it's not my calling. It's not what I was put here to do. And and everything that I do should be so much more impactful and so much bigger. And I've had this I had the conversation with David Meltzer. And at the same Mike: Yeah. Joe: Time, he brings you back in focus and he's like, yeah, but you should know that you you have everything you need. You just got to get out of your own way. It's not a matter that you should focus on wanting more. You have it all. You're just Mike: Yep. Joe: You're literally getting in your own way of getting it done. Mike: Yeah, and that's the thing, it's the truths that we tell ourselves we're living an illusion, we let the illusions that we have based on our beliefs and past experiences, and we let that affect us and limit us and block us. And really, at the end of the day, you know, we'd rather explain our life instead of actually intervening in it. We'd like to explain with excuses, you know, and justify things and, you know, at the end of the day, man, we just tell ourselves what we can tell ourselves that helps us survive. And to me, that's not good enough, because you're going to always come up a little short, so why not thrive and really go after it? And, you know, there's not everybody that's going to be able to do what we do. So why don't we take it up a notch and get get really abundance, like go after abundance so that we can help other people and distribute this information to other people. So that's the kind of things that I started thinking. I started hanging around people that coach and mentor me the right way, thinking big, you know, also, you know, still like Dave Meltzer talks about, you've got to be happy now. It's not like later, Joe: Yeah, Mike: So. Joe: Yeah, so I don't want to go down the current path, I follow him, I love the stuff that he does. I know that it fits the mold for a lot of people that are in the real estate world. And but Mike: Yeah. Joe: I also know that he's doing a lot of other things. But how he wrote the foreword to your book, which is amazing, how how much did he influence you making this jump to doing what you're doing now? Mike: So when George died, my stepfather, my brother was read in the next room and he said, Mike, you've got to read this book, this guy sounds just like you. I'll take a look at it. I started I saw Grant before and like pictures, but I thought he was like a real estate. Joe: Yep, Mike: I thought he trained realtors, Joe: Yep, Mike: I wasn't even sure, Joe: Yep. Mike: Right, so I read the book and I'm like, holy cow, this guy speaking to me, he's going through similar situations that I've been Joe: Yeah. Mike: Through. Like, I can totally relate. And I but but the big thing was about it was I've always had this big think, but I got cocooned for a while by people that I surround myself with that were broken thinkers, broken mindset, people, people that didn't fit my culture, but they produce. So I kept them around and people that quit on me. And I let that affect me personally. And I got into this situation where I was invalidated, me myself. I felt invalidated on being the animal that I actually am. And so when I was reading that book, I'm like, wait a minute, this this shows me something. I'm not the crazy one. Those people are the crazy ones. I have an animal. So I did unleash it. So I was able to unleash the beast and that's what it did for me. And then I just immersed myself in this content, hung around with all these people, build relationships inside his company, because I just want to be around those types of people. Joe: Yep. Mike: Great, great friendships. Like I said, Jerry Glantz, a friend of mine, I just you know, I'm proud to have them in my in my circle. And so when when I wrote the book, the book actually came from an idea that I got while I was interviewing grad on my podcast about I asked him the question, what would it take to get into outer space? Not like literally, but figuratively speaking, getting away from all the gravity and negative suppressors of people and things that can mess with you. When can you get that amount of money or that amount of whatever it is? And he said people aren't ready for that discussion. He said that's just something the answer doesn't people don't like the answer to that question and I'm like, well, what would it take? You know? And I started thinking about rocket fuel. Rocket fuel is what it would take. Take it all that stuff, converting it and fuel your way up there. And then once you do that, you remove all that stuff out of your way. There's nothing to stop you and you become unstoppable and indestructible. And that's the thought that started going through my head and I started obsessing about it. I'm like, I got to write this. So when I did that, I'm like the only person that would make sense to be writing the forward for this book is Grant. I don't know if he does afterwards. I don't know if he charged me. I don't know anything. I'm going to make it happen, though. And that's what I started thinking all the time. I just dwelled on it, wrote it down and. Book is almost done, and I made a phone call and there are some details that went into doing that and I just got done and his name is on the cover of the book is for Written Joe: Yeah, Mike: By Grant. Joe: Yeah. Mike: So that adds to credibility that I may not have had before, but the content in the book is just so powerful, man. It's just I actually can be honest with you about something like like I'm always honest, but like just totally transparent. I read that book over and over again during the editing process. Right. And I got so sick of it and because I've read it so much, but then I haven't read it in a while and I went back and my team, we go through in the morning and we'll pick a passage to read out of it just to see what what we come upon. And I don't even remember writing some of the stuff. I'm just like, wow, this is like this is really good stuff. Joe: That's cool, Mike: So it's a weird Joe: Yeah. Mike: It's a weird mind game when you're writing a book and then to see the actual finished product. It's a good time. Joe: That's really cool, yeah, I look forward to reading it, I it's, you know, just talking with you, I can tell we're in sync on a lot of this stuff. You're ahead of me because you wrote a book and I haven't done it yet, but I know that it's a good process to go through. Where did you figure out where you wanted to start in the book in regards to your life? Mike: So, you know, I started share my story that I share with you and I have other parts of my life in there, too, that are just crazy, blew people's minds. But I really what I did was I started writing in my phone while I was on airplanes and I would just write ideas in my phone and and I would write stories that happen in my life. And then my podcast, we transcribe the podcast episodes, the first few that were a monologue style, and we just created a framework. And then it doesn't look anything like it started. That's how I got started with it and just started, you know, what kind of what went into me, what am I made of? And I just went into that and started sharing it. And then the lessons that broke off from each of those things, because, you know, a lot of people have been through there's people that have been through a lot more than I have. But my story is pretty crazy. Like there's some stuff that happened to me that nobody could imagine going through. But I'm still here, brother, and I'm still going hard. Joe: I hear you. I see that and you brought up a good point and one of the videos that I watch where you said people discount their story, right? They don't think, why would anybody care? It's not that Mike: Yeah. Joe: Special. Well, when were you able to actually take your own thoughts as part of your own story and make that switch where you said, wait a second, you know, what I've gone through is important. If it can help one person in the world, that's value enough. I mean, when did you or did you not ever doubt that your story was powerful? Mike: No, so I would I never shared it and I saw Pete Vargas share his story on the 10x growth conference stage in twenty nineteen, I'm sitting there watching and this is the first big stage, I think, that Pete was on. He was nervous and scared and his face, you could tell, is sweating and he would tell you this. I'm friends with Joe: Mm Mike: Him, so Joe: Hmm. Mike: It's not something I'm talking about. Joe: Yeah, no, no. Mike: But I thought to myself, I'm watching that. I don't know who he was at that time, but he was telling a story about his father and he was like really connecting with me and the relationship and how he grew up in a rough spot. And then they came back together and how it all worked out. And I'm like, wow, this is just like powerful. I felt like everybody else disappeared in the place and it was just him talking to me. And I'm like, I need to learn how to do that. And if he can do it, I know I could do it. That's what went through my head. And I told the guys I was with when we got in the car afterwards, I'm like, I'm going to be on that stage. I'm going to share my story one day and I know I can do it. And so then I started sharing the story of one person, two people, five people. And they were like, that's all. I really can relate to that. Then I said, Well, shit, I need to go to ten million people Joe: Mm hmm. Mike: If I could do it and how can I do that? And that's when I started obsessing about getting known and sharing that story. And, you know, I was able to talk to Pete after that and actually learn from him how to share your story. And but I shared that that that story about seeing him in the audience and how everybody just disappeared and how he connected with me. And so it's pretty powerful stuff, Joe: Yeah, Mike: Man. Joe: That's really powerful, but that's got to be a little eerie to just be sitting there Mike: The. Joe: And all of a sudden it's just like a movie where everything around you blurs out and it's just Mike: Yeah. Joe: The two of you. Yeah, Mike: Yeah. Joe: That's incredible. Something real light like question I have for you. The logo is it is a logo. And I'm going to take a guess and I'm probably going to be wrong. And you're going to say, well, nice try, Joe, but does it have anything to do with the Lynch? Mike: So the sirocco, the blue. Joe: Yeah. Mike: Yeah, so it's just upside down, see, and in two hours that are, you know, for Cerak and then it just has a little dude in there holding up the world, if you can see him. That's what it has now. It doesn't. I Joe: Ok, Mike: Didn't see that. So linchpin, Joe: Only because Mike: Huh? Joe: When I read some stuff from you talking about, you know, in some of the verbiage that I read about you and on your website, you mention Mike: Yeah. Joe: The word linchpin. I can't remember the context, but it was. Mike: Yeah, no, you know what, I. Joe: And then when I looked at a picture of a lynchpin, I was like, wait, it is Mike: I Joe: Round. Mike: Got to Joe: And Mike: See what a picture of a linchpin Joe: You Mike: Looks like Joe: See Mike: Because Joe: Now Mike: Because, Joe: I have Mike: You know, Joe: You thinking. Mike: Like that's. Yeah, I got to look at this because maybe maybe, yeah, maybe it does, Joe: The. Mike: So I didn't design the logo myself I had professionally done, and maybe he had that in mind as well. Joe: Only because it's mean you could kind of say it a little bit. I don't know. Mike: Yeah, yeah, I see what you're saying, Joe: Right, Mike: Yeah, Joe: It's Mike: No, Joe: Round Mike: I didn't Joe: With Mike: Have Joe: The Mike: That. Joe: With the thing through it, and I'm thinking, OK, well, maybe it's kind Mike: Yeah. Joe: Of hinting towards it and and I Mike: Now, Joe: Said, Mike: It was really just the sea Joe: Yeah. Mike: And the two hour and holding up the world and helping lift up the Joe: That's Mike: World, Joe: Cool, Mike: That's what Joe: That's even cooler, so you can Mike: The. Joe: Throw my idea right out the window, Mike: Now, Joe: But Mike: I Joe: I Mike: Like that, I like that. Joe: Do I do some upfront investigation of the person I'm talking to in the life and all of that stuff. And I saw that, you know, because you're doing your mortgages. And I saw that Jennifer is in real estate and I don't Mike: Yeah. Joe: Know if she still is, but. Mike: Yes, yes. Joe: So that's a really cool synergy between the two of you, first of all, I think that probably works really well. But just for the people in the audience who had a great relationship with their significant other, how important has that been in the balance of your life, especially what you went through as a young, you know, a young man being able to have that support in and you found the love of your life and it's you know, there's that whole synergy there between you. Mike: Yeah, I mean, it's it's everything, I mean, like I said, I made a joke about trying to earn her spending with that, but then on the day she does a great job, she did she was a stay at home mom for a while until our youngest was in school. And then I said, you know what? I'm going to try to you know, we've got to figure out something because I'm giving deals away Joe: Uh huh, Mike: To people. Joe: Yep. Mike: And, you know, it would be great if you get a license and she ended up doing it. And she's just the type that if she gets into something, she goes hard with it. And she did great the first two years, just fantastic. I didn't even realize how much money she made last year until I saw ten ninety nine. I'm like, wow, you did great. But she's just phenomenal and aligns well with our business. Obviously I don't do mortgages much anymore. Joe: Yeah. Mike: I don't do it all. I just I work on the business maybe an hour a day. My team runs the day to day. They do a fantastic job. And so but it aligns well, obviously in a lot of our people, their spouse got their real estate license, too, because it aligns so well. Joe: Mm hmm. Yeah. Mike: So, yeah, but but at the end of the day, we are you know, I'm very clear with what I'm trying to do, my dreams. And she is clear on the fact of her dreams and the fact that she's willing to support me and run through fire for me. And Joe: Yeah. Mike: It's just a great feeling because I can't do it without her, obviously. Joe: Yep, yep, I just wanted to sort of bring that up, because I think it's important I have the same sort of relationship with Joel Mike: And Joe: And Mike: It's Joe: My significant Mike: Awesome. Joe: Other. So it's Mike: Yeah. Joe: To me, it's super important. And with what happened with covid, you know, a lot of things just stopped. Right. And Mike: Mm hmm. Joe: Changes were made. And so she got furloughed from doing her day to day job and has not been brought back. But she's always had this dream of doing photography. And so now I basically have said to her, you are not going back and you are going to from this point forward until whenever the world ends for you, you're going to follow your dream. So I Mike: Awesome. Joe: Think it's important. Right. And to Mike: Yeah. Joe: Support each other and it's nice to see that you have that same relationship. Mike: Yeah, so, so, so important that it aligns I mean, so much conflict comes from just not being aligned with the mission, Joe: Yep, Mike: You know, Joe: Yep. Mike: And I think that people need to realize that their personal dream, their mission, I call it their purpose, their mission. It's it's more important than anything when it comes down to it really is. Joe: Yeah. Mike: And that's why it's so important to share that with your partner, to make sure that they're on the same page with you. Joe: So let's talk about that. I'm sure I'm probably older than you at this point, but we're Mike: Yeah, Joe: At Mike: Definitely, definitely. Now Joe: The. Mike: I'm 40, I'm 40 for some, I'm Joe: Oh, Mike: A Joe: My gosh, I'm so Mike: Young Joe: Old, Mike: Pup, Joe: I can't. Mike: But I am going on 18 years of marriage. This May so. Joe: Congratulations, that's awesome, yeah, Mike: Thank Joe: Joel Mike: You. Joe: And Mike: Thank Joe: I Mike: You. Joe: Are 20, I think, at this point. Mike: Ok, cool, congrats. Joe: Yeah, I turned fifty nine this past February, so, Mike: Oh, man, I Joe: You know. Mike: Can't tell. I really can't Joe: Yeah, Mike: Tell. Joe: Well thank Mike: Maybe Joe: You. Mike: That's why that's why you shave your head, because that way you can't see any Joe: That's Mike: Gray hairs. Joe: Exactly, exactly right. They got my eyebrows Mike: Hey, Joe: Are still dark, Mike: Look, I'm with you the way the. Joe: So do you ever look at where you are now and you look back and go? I mean, and I think we've talked about this with some of the great people, like, you know, we can bring up David Meltzer again because he's just he's like one of my mentors. I love the guy at the Mike: Is Joe: Death. Mike: Awesome. Joe: You know, what is what's the saying? Something like the the teacher. The teacher appears when the student is ready, Mike: Yeah. Joe: Right? Mike: Yeah, yeah, yeah, teachers. Joe: Yep. Mike: Yep, exactly. Joe: And it's the same thing with life. Like things come when the time is right. And some people would argue against that. Some people would say whatever. But you just started on this path now, right. Something flipped when you're 40, when your stepfather passed away, it said there's you know, and you might have felt that your whole life because you people like you and I always were pulled towards something. Right. We're entrepreneurs. We've always worked towards a greater goal of whatever. Do you ever look back and go, God, I wish I had started this sooner? Or is it like, no, it's this is the time. This is the right time. It's happening now. You know, I'm interested in what your thought process is on that. Mike: Well, I'm curious, asking the question, you must have felt some kind of feeling about that in the past, maybe. Joe: I constantly go like I had, I chased another dream up until this point, and that Mike: Yeah. Joe: Dream didn't happen for me and I openly admit all the time that I didn't put in the work to make that dream happen. I'm Mike: The. Joe: I'm a trained you know, I went to college for music. So my whole life has been surrounded by music. And one day I was going to tour the world and be this famous drummer for and I always use the example because I love his music. John Mayer. Mike: Yeah. Joe: That never happened for me because I know now I can look myself in the mirror and go, You didn't put in the work. You didn't put in the Mike: Yeah, Joe: Tent. Mike: The commitment, Joe: Yeah. You Mike: Yeah. Joe: Didn't do the ten thousand hours. You Mike: Yeah. Joe: You would rather had gone down to the college campus bar and had a bunch of beers and chicken wings with your buddies Mike: Yep. Joe: Instead of going back into the practice room and spending another four hours at night. So I am fine with I get it now, but now Mike: Yeah. Joe: I'm trying to take like the rest of my life and make it amazing and live much Mike: Yeah. Joe: Bigger. And so I am at the stage right now doing that change, shifting Mike: Mm hmm. Joe: My my frame of mind. I know the world is abundant. I know that everything you know, I just have to look towards the good of everything. And the more I focus on the good and the abundance and the gratitude, more of it just keeps coming in. In the last two months, it's been incredible for me. And so and it's I always was the oh, woe is me. Like I work my ass off. Why am I not getting that? Why am I not Mike: Yep, Joe: Doing that? So Mike: Yeah. Joe: That's why I asked you this question Mike: Yeah, Joe: When that, Mike: Yeah. Joe: You know, was the shift with your with Mike: Yeah. Joe: Your father, your stepfather passing away and you just saying when you said you felt it in your heart, you were like, I need to do something bigger. Was that the pivotal point for this? Mike: Yes, it was, and I did look back and be like, man, I cannot believe when I started finding out things and becoming aware of things, I cannot believe I didn't start this sooner. I didn't know that. Like, I just felt like I had wasted I went through a period of time where I felt like I wasted time and time is so valuable. And I said, you know what? I don't know how much longer I have on this planet, but you know what, at this point, the window keeps shrinking. I got to pick up my urgency. I got to move faster. I got to demand more and be louder and be more impactful and be just more intense than I would have had to if I started a long time ago, that's all. And so at first I did look back and with some regret. But then I quickly got out of that and said, OK, what have we got to do to get this done in the window that I do have left? So, yeah, I definitely and that was the pivotal, pivotal point, of course, working towards it my whole life, not knowing it. Joe: Yeah. Mike: You know, there's a story in the Bible and they made a movie about it with Steve Carell about Noah's Ark. You know, it was told over some years he took to build this big arc and he didn't really know why he was doing it, he was just being told to do it by God. If you believe in God, Joe: Hmm. Mike: Which I do, or if it's intuition or whatever. And he got these animals and people were laughing at him and discouraging them and he just kept doing it anyway and building a ship in a place where there's never rain. Joe: All right. Mike: And did it make sense, it didn't seem to make sense at the moment, but he kept doing it and he kept being committed and doing it and doing it and doing it before you know it. The rain came, washed everybody away, and he survived with all the animals that he had and his family. And so I look at that lesson and I started to see this now. I started to see that the things when I'm committed and obeyed to my purpose, my mission, and I filter things through that, whether it's the people I hang out with, my actions, my words, my thoughts, my environment, when I start to filter through that mission. I'm obeying what I'm supposed to be doing and things just magically work out and I start to see opportunities everywhere, but when I don't do that, they're missing. And so you don't need to know what the end game is necessarily. You should be shooting for something, but just be looking for the opportunities. As long as you're obeying your mission and filtering everything through your purpose or mission or whatever you want to call it. Joe: Yeah. All right, well, that makes me feel good that I'm not the only one that had some regrets, so thank Mike: The. Joe: You for being vulnerable and saying that because I definitely have gone through it and I have like I said, I'm older than you. So I think, you know, think, Mike: None of us are alone, Joe. None of us are, you Joe: Ok. Mike: Know, I've anything that you go through, there's somebody else out there experiencing it for sure. Joe: Right, and I think that's what you're a lot of what you talk about is it's so important to share your story because it literally could help one person, which would be a huge help. You never know where they are in their state of mind. And if it lifts them, that's awesome. But imagine being able to help tens of thousands of millions of billions of people. Right. So I understand that's what the goal is for people like us who want to do that. So I I wish you the best of luck in doing that. And and same Mike: Thanks. Joe: With myself. Mike: Yeah, Joe: They've Mike: You, Joe: Got Mike: Too. Joe: To get it done. Mike: That's right, Joe: Ok, Mike: That's right. Joe: So you said something earlier about the book, which is the name of the book is Rocket Fuel. And you said it's May, May 3rd. Mike: Yeah, May 3rd, Monday, May 3rd, it's coming out on Amazon, and, you know, it should be a best seller based on we have we presold it. So I'm thinking that it's not going to have a problem being a best seller, number one best seller. Joe: Yep. Mike: What we shall see. But I'm going to do a bunch of lives that day, Instagram and Facebook lives, and just have some fun with it Joe: Cool. Mike: And celebrate. Joe: Ok, cool, so let's talk about it a little bit. Mike: Sure. Joe: You said something earlier that I thought was really cool, which was taking you said something about taking whatever comes in and not putting in it in the trunk, but putting it in the fuel tank and making rocket fuel. So explain Mike: Yep, Joe: That again Mike: Very Joe: To me, because Mike: Good. Joe: I I loved Mike: Yeah. Joe: It when you said I was like and I didn't even write it down. Mike: Yeah. Joe: I was like, no, that's got to go up here in my brain. So I would love to Mike: Well, Joe: Hear that again. Mike: Well, when you want something in life and things come your way to stop it or slow you down, if you remove a one thing, obviously that's going to help. But removing is not good enough for me. So I take all that stuff. Haters, people that discourage me laughed at me. What I'm trying to do, screw ups of my own people trying to screw me, all that stuff I just stored in my fuel tank. And usually people put it in their trunk and that weighs them down. You know, most people quit on their dreams because other people are talking Joe: Mm hmm. Mike: About them and saying, no, you're not the same. Why are you doing that? In all kinds of different things? I take all that and say, you know what, like here's an example, by the way, I stored in my tank, my fuel tank, to convert it into rocket fuel rather than my trunk, where it weighs me down. And some of the people closest to me, you know, like some of my business partners and friends and they know who they are. I talk to them about it. And I said, you know what? You keep saying the stuff like, hey, why don't you go do your podcast? Hey, you know, just this stupid digs like that, right? At the end of the day, they're trying to get at me, but they're really just talking about themselves, reflecting upon themselves and the fact that they should be doing that and they're not. And so I know that. And I tell people, you know, you want to say that, great, you're not going to achieve what you think you're going to achieve because all you're doing is giving me more fuel and I'm going to push it even harder. So when somebody says that to me, I'll do it on purpose, where I'll push harder and then I'll show it up in their face a little bit more to about. They're seeing so many posts on Instagram, I'll make sure I send it to them in a direct message, because that way it shuts them Joe: Yeah, Mike: Up Joe: Yeah, Mike: For Joe: It's weird, I don't Mike: Not Joe: Understand, Mike: Being. Joe: I don't understand, like people want to bring you down to their level, right? We deal with that all the time. And and social media has done so much to expose those people. And I just don't understand why they can't be happy for you. But they. Mike: Well, they can't because so I've already realized this in my mind now I know this, it's not them personally, it's their mind. And what it's happening is they just the subconscious mind just justifies where you are. It's trying to justify the truths that you told yourself and when something comes in to threaten that. You have to basically there there things fire off to protect their subconscious beliefs, and so it's not really them personally that's doing it and that's why you can't take it personal. You need to understand it. And then when they're doing it, you need to lay it out to them and let them know, hey, listen, I know what's going on here. I get it. You're where you are and you're trying to justify where you are. And you're saying this stuff to me. I don't take it personal, by the way. I use it as fuel. So thank you. And if you want to say more, continue to give me fuel. Great. But I would rather be able to help you. On break the like, just open up your truths and change them, change your beliefs. And expand your mind and see what you can achieve instead of worrying about what I'm doing and that's the way I handle it, I don't really get fired up or angry or take it personal. It's just a situation where they're going through it. And I think we've all been through it Zoom. I think I'm more understanding of it, Joe: Yeah. Mike: But I will not. But if they don't listen to me when I talk about that, I will not spend time with them because I'm not going to spend time with people that don't align with the mission. Joe: Totally agree. So the book Rocket Fuel coming out May 3rd on Amazon, who is this book for? Mike: Specifically, this is for people that have gone through things in life. And they feel like they keep getting held back or slowed down by things are stopped and they're just they're just done with it. They're they're at the point right now where they've had enough. They're getting sick of where they are and they want to do something about it. And they are looking for that breakthrough that that that superpower, because really it is it's like John Maxwell, House leadership, because this thing is so powerful. And I validated it so, so thoroughly that it's a law, it's the Rockefeller law. And so it's for people that are just sick and tired of being where they are. And they want to advance. They want to have a better life, life of their dreams. And I believe, like I said, my mission is all people are unstoppable to live in a life of their dreams. And so that's what's for. Joe: Yeah, and I saw that it seems like part of the focus is about past pains and obstacles and how you you basically help with the book to to change, take people and turn it around and say, you know, like you're saying, use those things as rocket fuel to get you to the next level. So don't lean on them. Don't have them in the trunk, don't have them as baggage, but instead take what you've learned, take what has happened and convert it to rocket fuel by doing whatever you talk about in the book. Mike: Yeah, Joe: Right. Mike: Yeah, the magic, the magic, here's the magic, right? The magic is when you have something happen and you get that feeling in your chest, that's where it hits me, by the way, like something Joe: Hmm. Mike: Bad happens and like this speed to which you can recognize that and convert it and look for opportunity. That's when you master the Rockefeller law. That's what it's all about, the longer time it takes, the more doubt creeps in, Joe: Yeah. Mike: A more negative energy creeps in, the more victimhood creeps in. And the missed opportunities happened during that period. So you want to shrink that window to as little as short as possible because we all feel it. We're all going to still feel it when something bad happens at first, but recognize it as fast as possible and start to look for the opportunity, not play the victim role, take responsibility for everything. Joe: Yeah, that's great. OK, I want to honor the time we have that we so we're going to do an hour or so. I want to just go through this real quick. So you have your own podcast, which is what are you made of? Which is on the wall behind you, where you interview. I assume, you know, other entrepreneurs and people that have amazing stories to tell and share. You release one week, twice a week with a human. Mike: Well, it started out once a week and then I had so many that I was doing, I had to do two weeks. Right now we're on a two week schedule. Joe: Ok. Mike: So, yeah, I just load up. I go hard, man. Like, if I see somebody I want to show, I go after him like an animal. I get them on the show and I don't care how many I've already had in the can. I just still just keep loading them up Joe: That's awesome. Mike: And uh. Yeah. So. Joe: Ok, cool. Besides that, you are you do some performance coaching, correct? You do some coaching in general, you Mike: Yeah. Joe: Are doing some speaking. You're going to continue to to build that Mike: Yeah. Joe: That part of your career. You're going to be on stage with Grant one of these days. Mike: Well, yeah, but so the coaching part, I want to do, the coaching part of switching that into, you know, I still have a couple of clients, but really focusing on the tech side of things and developing these entrepreneurs and young entrepreneurs into this tech world and using my specialty performance and business coaching and what have you into that, not getting paid directly for it. But but from the companies that I'm developing, Joe: Yeah. Mike: I'm really focused on that. And then I was on a 10x growth stage this past March. Joe: Oh, congratulations. Mike: Let me tell you, it took me two years to step on that stage. Joe: Hey, Mike: Thank you. Joe: That's awesome. The tech thing is it is there more that you can tell us about it or a way that people can find out about it or a. Mike: Yes, so the best thing to do, really, I mean, if you if you message me and follow me on Instagram, you're going to see all kinds of stuff coming out here very shortly on it. But I have a tech product called Blueprinted. It's being printed. This is my the one I co-founded. And this product basically, I looked at digital training and video training and I saw, like, how ineffective Joe: Mm Mike: It was Joe: Hmm. Mike: And the fact that only 20 percent of people actually complete the courses. So that means the people that are marketing these courses that are good at marketing are making money without concern for the Joe: Correct, Mike: Success Joe: Yeah. Mike: Of their student, their clients. And I thought that was an ethical problem. And I looked at why people get bored. They don't finish it, they get distracted, they don't retain the information. Or when they get done, they're like, what's the next step? Like, what am I supposed to do? Where do I put that Joe: Mm Mike: And Joe: Hmm. Mike: Where where do I take that and how long do I do that? And so I thought to myself, what if there's a way to have a project management based software technology that has a marketplace where people that have had success can come in and algorithmically step by step, put the success steps to what they've done, whatever vertical, Joe: Mm Mike: And Joe: Hmm. Mike: Build that blueprint in our platform and then sell it on the marketplace to to people that want to know how to be successful in that area. So it could be anything from a business to a podcast to digital marketing agency, whatever it is. Because if you look if you're going to build a house, you wouldn't want to watch a YouTube video. And on building that house, Joe: All Mike: You'd want the blueprints. Joe: Right. Mike: So this is a market disrupter, industry disrupter. And I can also see another industry being created from this, like there's web designers when websites came out. Well, there's going to be a lot of people that don't want to build their own blueprints. They want to take the content and give it to somebody and have them do the blueprint for Joe: Mm Mike: Them. Joe: Hmm. Mike: So there's going to be a whole industry just on blueprints. And so, yeah, this is a phenomenal thing. And it's coming out hopefully in the next 60 days, give or take. And I'm just fired up to get it in people's hands, man. Joe: That's great, man. You got a lot of irons in the fire. I like Mike: Yeah, Joe: It. Mike: But Joe: That's Mike: Thank Joe: Awesome. Mike: You. Joe: All right. So I want everybody to go and check out your podcast. The book is released on May 3rd called Rocket Fuel. Get in touch with you on on any of the social media. What's the best way to get in touch with you Mike: Instagram, Joe: On. Mike: Instagram, Twitter, LinkedIn, either one, but Instagram, it's Michy Cerak. Joe: Like you see rock on Instagram. Mike: Yep. Joe: Perfect. All right, man, this is a pleasure for me. I love talking Mike: Metohija. Joe: To another person Mike: Yeah, buddy. Joe: And it was great. And I really wish you a ton of luck with the book. I'll make sure when this episode gets released, I'll have a cover of the book. This will also go like you do on your podcast, will go to the YouTube channel so people will Mike: Thank you Joe: Be able to Mike: To. Joe: See it. I'll put the link to the Amazon in there. Anything else I can do to help? Let me know. But it was a real pleasure to speak with you. I appreciate Mike: Well, Joe: Your time Mike: Thank Joe: And. Mike: You. Thank you, Joe, I appreciate it was a great interview. Great questions and I really enjoyed it. Joe: Thank you, ma'am. You take care. Good luck with the book. Good luck with the podcast. Good luck with the tech software and Mike: Thank Joe: Everything Mike: You. Joe: Else. And just have an amazing year. Mike: Thank you, you, too, bye. Joe: Thank you.
I had the opportunity to sit down with celebrity cosmetic dentist, Dr. Bill Dorfman. We chatted about how he came up in the world from childhood to creating one of the most famous dentist practices in Studio City, CA. On top of the practice he created, he also started Discus Dental with a dear friend of his, which was a global leader in professional tooth whitening products with brands such as Zoom®!, BriteSmile®, and NiteWhite® and they eventually sold the company to Royal Philips Electronics for millions. Dr. Bill has appeared on Larry King Live, Oprah, The Doctors and was the only dentist to appear on ABC's Extreme Makeover. Now with his extremely successful career, he has turned some of his focus towards philanthropy and the LEAP Foundation for high school and college students. You're going to see this side of Dr. Bill and his passion towards entrepreneurship, success, giving back and his foundation. As always, thanks so much for listening to the podcast and I would so appreciate a rating of 5 starts and a review. It would really mean the world to me. Much love, Joe Dr. Bill Dorfman Celebrity Cosmetic Dentist, Partner of Discus Dental, Inventor of Zoom! and Founder of the LEAP Foundation Author of: Billion Dollar Smile: A Complete Guide to Your Extreme Smile Makeover Website: https://www.billdorfmandds.com/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/drbilldorfman/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/DrBillDorfman LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/drbilldorfman/ YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/user/DrBillDorfman Podcast Music By: Andy Galore, Album: "Out and About", Song: "Chicken & Scotch" 2014 Andy's Links: http://andygalore.com/ https://www.facebook.com/andygalorebass If you enjoy the podcast, would you please consider leaving a short review on Apple Podcasts/iTunes? It takes less than 60 seconds, and it really makes a difference in helping to convince hard-to-get guests. For show notes and past guests, please visit: https://joecostelloglobal.libsyn.com Subscribe, Rate & Review: I would love if you could subscribe to the podcast and leave an honest rating & review. This will encourage other people to listen and allow us to grow as a community. The bigger we get as a community, the bigger the impact we can have on the world. Sign up for Joe's email newsletter at: https://joecostelloglobal.com/#signup For transcripts of episodes, go to: https://joecostelloglobal.lybsyn.com Follow Joe: https://linktr.ee/joecostello Transcript Joe: Ok, my guest today is Dr. Bill Dorfman. Dr. Bill, welcome. Dr. Bill: Thank you. How are you? Joe: Great. So it's a pleasure to have you here with a lot of the guests that I have on, I really like to give the audience an idea of who you are and not just jump in to where we are today. So if can you give us some background of your time line, how you decided to get into dentistry where you grew up, just kind of bring us up to today is is slow, slower, as fast as you want to. Dr. Bill: Sure, I am a native of California, I grew up in Granada Hills as a little kid, I happen to have an accident where I knocked out my baby teeth. We had a great family dentist. And at some point I just thought this would be a cool thing to do and help people the way he helped me. And so at the age of about three, I said, I'm going to be a dentist. And it just never wavered. I was a weird kid. I mean, how many kids want to be a dentist? Right. But I've always been weird and I've always kind of marched to the beat of a different drum. I never felt like I fit into any, like, group or peg. I just kind of always did my own thing. I was like the Switzerland of a kid. I was friends with everybody, but not really part of anything, you know, like I swam. But I wasn't always with the swimmers and I played football, but I wasn't with the football players and student government. But, like, I just was kind of a free spirited kid that didn't really I didn't really, like, do what most normal kids do. I don't know. It was funny. I had this conversation with my parents recently and I said, you know. Dr. Bill: How was I as a kid, like was I easy to raise, hard to raise, and they're like, you are perfect like you. And, you know, and I honestly don't ever remember I never argued with my parents. I never got into trouble. I was a weird kid. I just I always just kind of did what I was supposed to do. I guess it was in my mind, like the path of least resistance. I didn't smoke. I didn't drink. I didn't do drugs. Like I mean, I always kind of just did what I was supposed to do and I was happy go lucky guy. And, you know, I went to school and it's funny because I was always voted most likely to succeed in kindergarten, in grade school and junior high and high. And I was like, why do people always say that? I don't know. It was just a weird thing, even in dental school and. You know, we grew up really poor. I mean, I was one of five kids, I started working when I was five years old. I had a job. I worked in in the in the yard for neighbors. I would go pick weeds. And then when I was old enough to push a lawnmower, I would pull weeds and do the lawn mower. Dr. Bill: And then when I got a little bit older, I got a job working at Ralph's, which is a grocery store. And then I worked as a janitor. My mother was a nursery school teacher. And so I would go to school and I would work as a janitor and clean the schools. And, you know, my parents, I would say we were rich, rich, rich in love, poor monetary things. And maybe that was good, you know? I mean, I literally supported myself. I mean, outside of buying food, all my clothes, everything I wanted, I just I bought you know, it's funny because I have three daughters and I almost feel like when they got into college, I got into college, too, because I was so active in helping them write their entrance stuff and did it. But my parents had no idea. You know, one day I got a letter, I'm like, Hey, Mom, Dad, I'm going to UCLA. They're like, Oh, that's great, sweetie. Then they'll clue, you know? I mean, it was just that's just how it was. I was the independent kid. I just did my own thing. I remember. Graduating UCLA, I got a call from the dean's office and I was awarded the outstanding senior award, which is kind of a big deal, right? Joe: Yeah. Dr. Bill: So I call my folks and my mom, dad, I get on the phone, they're both on the phone. I'm like, you won't believe this. I said, well, I just got a call from the dean's office and I'm going to be the outstanding senior at UCLA graduating class. My mother says, What's not to believe? A lot. They picked me, there's ten thousand students, Joe: Right. Dr. Bill: She goes, darling, do you really think there's somebody better? Joe: That's awesome. Dr. Bill: I'm like, Mom, you're like totally missing. My parents had no idea. And it was actually kind of funny, you know, and, you know, so, you know, I kind of went through and I graduate UCLA. I finished that, you know, going to UCLA. And then I got in a dental school. My first choice is dental, which was a great school. It was a three year program. And as I was entering my senior year, I realized, you know, I've never seen the world or anything. Actually, I had never even really been on an airplane. And it's like I need to open up this practice and be tethered to a specific area. Like I didn't want to do that. So I did some research and I found a program in Switzerland that was the only clinic literally in the world that wasn't a third world country where an American dentist could work legally. Problem is, there were four hundred applicants and only one position, and I was bound and determined to get that. So I had every professor in my dental school write me a letter of recommendation. And they were amazing letters, you know. I know. I wrote them all I Joe: That's Dr. Bill: Mean, Joe: Right. Dr. Bill: Basically, I would say, can you write me a letter and they do I know I have to Joe: Yeah. Dr. Bill: Write another letter and then say I'll write it if your personal lives. So I did that and I soon realized that was getting me nowhere. So then I started calling the director of the clinic back in nineteen eighty three. This was not easy. We didn't have cell phones. You know, I, you know, I couldn't make long distance phone calls from my dental school, you know, what am I getting like keep putting quarters like a lot of your millennialist. Don't you know that you actually used to have to put money in a pay Joe: Exactly, Dr. Bill: Phone. Right. Joe: I was there. Dr. Bill: Right. So there is and you can use a credit card and none of this. So I would have to time it at home. And and even then, it wasn't easy. A lot of times you couldn't get through. It didn't work at the bank. I start calling him and calling him and I tell kids and we'll talk about my leave program a little later on, there will be life defining moments in your life. Sometimes you plan on, sometimes you don't. Sometimes they just happen. And this was one that I really didn't plan, but it was so fortuitous that it happened. And I'm on the phone with the director. His name was Mr. Schreyer. And I said as I realized I was getting nowhere with these phone calls. Can I take you to lunch? Because I had heard somewhere that, like, you should take people to lunch Joe: Yeah. Dr. Bill: And the crazy thing is and he said it, he goes, But you're in San Francisco and I'm in Switzerland, I'm like, no problem, I'll fly there. Which is even crazier because I was broke like I had no money. I couldn't even afford, like the 30 cents to go on the bus every day of school. That's how broke I was. I would walk like two miles. And so he said yes. And I figured out a way to borrow money. And I went to Switzerland Joe: Wait, but don't Dr. Bill: And Joe: Go past Dr. Bill: I. Joe: This point. Wait, I want to know what you told your parents when you said I'm going to Switzerland to take the head of the department at the dental school. Out to lunch. I want to know what your parents said to that. Dr. Bill: They thought it was a great idea. Joe: That's incredible. Dr. Bill: Good luck. You know, Joe: That's Dr. Bill: I mean, Joe: Awesome. Dr. Bill: They had no clue. So anyhow, I did it. There was a girl that I had been friends with my whole life that, you know, I had kind of hoped that I would marry one day. That never happened. But we're still best friends. But I took her with me and I figured if I got stuck on words, she was very talkative and she could help me out. But the two of us took him to lunch and he hired me. Joe: That's Dr. Bill: And Joe: Incredible. Dr. Bill: It literally changed my life. I mean, I got an opportunity to live in Europe. For two years, I learned how to ski trip about salesmanship of the scandal to I'm completely fluent in French. I Joe: Wow. Dr. Bill: And I was really not gifted in languages in school. I mean, and I still I have a godson in Switzerland. I mean and I still have very close friends there. So it was a great, great, great experience for me. And it really gave me an opportunity to see the world. I came back to L.A. I really became enamored with cosmetic dentistry as opposed to just general dentistry. And so I did something that we also teach Italy. It's called Kopi Genius. I realized that the last thing Beverly Hills needed was another cosmetic dentist. So I found the five most successful cosmetic dentists and I called all of them and I said, Can I come in Chattanooga? Shadowing wasn't even a thing back then like they were what do what Joe: Yeah. Dr. Bill: I'm like now coming to watch you. And I did. And, you know, there weren't a lot of students at the time doing this, but they all five of them said the same thing to me. You're really different. I think what they were saying in a nice way is you're weird, but they're really different, you know, because students would come in and watch me do dentistry. And that's not what I did. What I did was I went in, I wanted to see how they brought the patients in the intake forms, what they said to the patients, how they brought them back to the treatment rooms, how they presented the treatment, and then how they performed the treatment, and then how they took the patient out of the room, how they collected money. I wanted to get paid and I didn't know how to collect money from people working in dental school. They teach you how to drill teeth. And in the clinic in Switzerland, I didn't have to deal with money. I just did the work. So I wanted to learn how a business ran and all that. And I sat there like a sponge in these offices. And my goal was to make an office better than theirs, to take the best of the best from all of these these guys and make a better dental office. Dr. Bill: And within two years I did it. You know, I had the busiest and probably still have the busiest dental office in all of Beverly Hills because I copy Genius and that's what I did on Instagram and Instagram became popular. I didn't just do it. I hired a whole team. I'm only going to in the world with a million followers on Instagram. You know, I didn't just do it. One of the things I teach, at least when you go go big and that's what I do, if I'm going to do something, I commit and I do it. So, you know, I started this dental practice soon after that, I started a company called Discus Dental where I invented Zoom. And we grew that company from zero to one point three dollars billion in sales. And I did it by hiring a great team. My best friend, Robert Heyman, was my business partner and he was a genius. And his father was Fred Hammond, who created Beverly Hills Giorgio Cosmetics, two seven, three of all Fred. Joe: Well. Dr. Bill: So Robert grew up in that industry. So he knew marketing and manufacturing and advertising. I knew dentistry and advertising. And together we built the largest tooth whitening company in the world. Zoom became Q to became the number one to fly new product in the world. And then we sold that company to Phillips back in 2010. And since then, I've been the featured dentist on ABC's Extreme Makeover, CBS of Doctors New York Times, best selling author, 20 Lifetime Achievement Award. Three Children, two ex-wives. This Thrill Ride. Joe: Incredible. So I have to ask you, and this is for the entrepreneurs in the audience, because the question that would come to my mind is you're fresh back in the states from Switzerland and you decide that you're going to plant roots and probably one of the most expensive real estate areas in the world. How do you start up a dental office in the heart of Beverly Hills? Dr. Bill: So I basically didn't put all my eggs in one basket, I grew up in Granada Hills, the difference between Granada Hills and Beverly Hills is astronomical. The only commonality is the word Ilze. Right. But I didn't know where I would usually drive more. I had the advantage holes of all the people I grew up with living there and coming to me. But I loved the allure of Beverly Hills. So I worked as an associate in two different dental offices. So it didn't cost me anything. I was a hired gun. I would go in and work and bring in patients. And I soon realized that I loved cosmetic dentistry. I love the mentality of people in a business area like centricity and, you know, and not so much kind of like family dentistry. And so I pretty much closed down the office and Granada Hills worked in in Century City. And the plan was I was working with an older fellow to buy him out. Well, as soon as we started getting closer and closer to the buyout date, I think my enthusiasm became infectious. And he decided he didn't want to quit anymore. Joe: Oh. Dr. Bill: And he was very sweet. And he said, you know, Bill, he said, you can do this by yourself. He said, you don't need to buy my practice. I'm going to stay here, open up your own practice. You have enough pay. I had more patients than he did Joe: Oh, Dr. Bill: After Joe: Wow. Dr. Bill: Just two years. And so I did. It was really fortuitous that the dentist right next door to us moved out of the building. And so there was a completely furnished dental suite. I didn't have to do any build out at all. All of the plumbing, the gas, the soft, everything was there. So I was really lucky. I moved into that suite is on the 11th floor, my building, and the only thing I needed was all the dental equipment, the chairs and the Joe: Mm Dr. Bill: Lights Joe: Hmm. Dr. Bill: And this and then another stroke of luck. There was a dentist in our building who was four or five flights above me who passed away. And there was a fully furnished dental office up there of all this equipment. And the building didn't know what to do with it. And it was a mess. It was a mess. So I went up there and and I had it evaluated and assessed. I was going to try and take out a loan or something. And the appraisal came in at close to seventy five thousand dollars for all that. I had three thousand dollars in the bank at the time. I mean, that's it. And so I, I went and I spoke to the owner of our building and I said, listen, I've been up on in that suite and it's it's a mess. I mean, and it was it was really disgusting and dirty. And I said, I will empty the suite. I will take all of the equipment, I will clean everything up and get it ready for you to read. And I'll give you three thousand dollars cash. And he said, fine. Joe: Wow, that's Dr. Bill: And Joe: Chris. Dr. Bill: I still I still have a lot of those instruments, and I this is 40 years I've been practicing. I have all the surgical like four extractions and I have all that stuff still in my office with that doctor's name engraved in it. But that was how I really opened up my office. I had no budget. I had no ad budget. Like, I couldn't advertise, but I realized something. And as an entrepreneur, I would say you need to sit back, look at your situation and really think outside the box. And this is what I did. I thought, OK, I'm in Century City. There is a five block radius of buildings around my office with 20000 thousand people coming to work every day. Right. Joe: Hmm. Dr. Bill: We know on average that 50 percent of those people don't have a regular dentist. OK, so that's you know, what was I'm sorry. It was fifty thousand people in that area. So that's twenty five thousand people don't have a regular dentist that work for me. Of those, twenty five thousand eighty percent of them work in companies with dental insurance so they don't even have to pay anything. They just need to come in and because I'm so close, they can walk over, they wouldn't have to drive. So what I did is I hired five kids from Beverly Hills High School, which is right next door to my dental office. And I made up these flyers for I think I paid three hundred bucks and I had them put a flyer in every single office in Century City. Now, this was way before 9/11, so there was no restrictions Joe: Right. Dr. Bill: You could go. And so basically by doing that, the flyer gave people a great first time offering to my office. If they had dental insurance, it was free. And I got something like 80 patients the very first month. And if we continue to do that and so we were basically getting patients in two ways, internal and external. Internal was taking the patients that came in, giving them the greatest dental experience we could and asking them to refer friends and then externally going out and putting out more and more and more flyers and bringing in patients. The next month I got something like one hundred new patients. And honestly, since then I have probably had no less than 90 new patients a month my entire career. And there were I mean, and the average dentist gets like 20. But I have never not been busy even during the pandemic. We've been busy. I'm busier now than I've been in years because I always say I invented Zoom when people think I the video conference, what it was. But people are sitting on Zoom looking at their smile, Joe: Yeah. Dr. Bill: Going, I'm not really happy with that. I'm doing more cosmetic dentistry right now than I've ever done in my life. It's it's a Joe: That's Dr. Bill: Boom. Joe: Crazy. And when you said when you started your practice you were going to concentrate on cosmetic surgery, so were all of these new patients coming in just for cosmetic stuff, not for cleanings, or were you doing Dr. Bill: Well, Joe: That also? Dr. Bill: First of all, it wasn't cosmetic surgery, it was cosmetic dentistry, Joe: Ok. Dr. Bill: But as a cosmetic dentist, yeah, we do regular dentistry too and do Joe: At. Dr. Bill: Fillings and crowns and cleanings and everything else that you need to do to maintain your oral care. But the focus of my of my practice, the thing that really differentiates me from most dentists is the fact that I do, you know, cosmetic dentistry. And I have a very high profile clientele for that. Joe: Yep, so that's my next question, you get right into it perfectly. How did you get Dr. Bill: Ok. Joe: Like with any entrepreneur? Obviously, if you provide a really great service, you're going to get talked about right. And automatically you're going to get known. And like for my business, I have an entertainment booking agency here in Scottsdale and Phoenix. Somebody writes to me, calls me. They have an answer. Within an hour or so, I'm known for my response time. And then the product I deliver is a very high product with you. How did you get that first step into a clientele that you now have? Dr. Bill: So there's a few things. First of all, you said something, you said you automatically get no wrong. You don't automatically Joe: No, Dr. Bill: Get Joe: You Dr. Bill: No. Joe: Do it yourself, you write. Dr. Bill: You know, it takes work, Joe: Yeah. Dr. Bill: You know, I was really fortunate early on in my career, there's a woman that I went to high school with as very close. But if you came in and needed a lot of dental work and said, hey, do you want to barter what I got, even though the barter was Joe: Yeah. Dr. Bill: I was so naive when it came to business. And then I said, well, what do you do? She goes, I'm a publicist. I'm like, I don't need one of those. She goes, Yeah, you do. I'm like, I don't even know what one was. So I don't leap of faith. I thought, OK, fine, we'll barter and we'll do it. She was genius. I mean, she got me in magazines, journals. She got me listed as the best dentist in L.A. in L.A. magazine, which was huge that, you know, she she was friends with the editor. She got the whole editorial staff to come in and be my patient. They loved their experience. And so they ranted and raved about my practice. And those things started building up my practice. And, you know, I can get more into the whole PR thing, but that was really a big mindshift for me. I never thought as a dentist I would have like a publicist. I mean, and the crazy thing is today I'm probably the best known dentist in the world. Go figure. Joe: Yeah. Dr. Bill: Right. But a lot of things happen. And, you know, I always tell kids when they come to leak, if there's only two concepts that you walk away from from this whole program, these are the two that I think are most important. Number one, don't wait for opportunities in life. Make them, you know, I mean, if I meet another millennial who's sitting there waiting for the universe to do something, I want to scream and pull my hair out. Like the universe doesn't care about you at all. You need to care about you. And number two, when you get an opportunity in life, don't take it. M. it. There's a big difference Joe: Yeah. Dr. Bill: When ABC put me on Extreme Makeover dentistry, great TV, not so good. You know, if I watch the first two episodes of that show, I literally stunk like they should have fired me. But at least I was smart enough to know how bad I was. So instead of waiting to get fired, I was proactive. I took acting classes, hosting classes, teleprompter in class. I hired the woman who worked with all the kids on American Idol to sit down with me and teach me how to do what we're doing right now. To interview, to talk. I mean, this was not natural for me. It wasn't at all. But, you know, if you practice and you practice and you practice, you get better at things. And there's a big misconception. We always think practice makes what? Joe: Perfect. Dr. Bill: Ron. Joe: Right. Dr. Bill: Practice makes permanent. Joe: Yeah. Dr. Bill: So with your practicing in, you're not getting the results you want, don't keep doing that, get a mentor, get a coach, hire somebody and learn how to do it right, because you need to practice it the right way. Right. To make it perfect. And Joe: So. Dr. Bill: So there was a lot of learning for me. But, you know, at the end of the day, it paid off. Joe: Then would your grandmother say you look thin? Is that what she said? She looks. Dr. Bill: The first time I was on TV, I said, Grandpa, this is a woman who never said anything bad to anybody. I said, Gramps, did you see me on TV? She goes, Of course I did. I said, What do you think? She says? You look very Joe: If Dr. Bill: Skinny. Joe: It's. Dr. Bill: I'm like, But what do you think about what I did? She goes, I'm telling you, you were skinny. Joe: I want to talk a lot about Lee, because even though you said, like, the universe doesn't care, I I also believe and I'm a big Dave Meltzer fan and he's sort of my mentor at this point that we get in our own way. And so there is abundance out there. And if we get out of the way and we just know what we want and we ask for it and we act accordingly, things come. So this connection with you means a lot to me because of Lee. Before we get to that, do you want to talk a little bit about your own podcast? Just because the lead part of it for me is huge and I really want to concentrate on that until our time runs out, so. Dr. Bill: Well, I mean, the know the way that my podcast ties in the league is, Leape is a motivational leadership program for high school and college students that we do every summer. And it's always been at UCLA Live. Obviously, last year it was virtual. This year, I think we'll have probably one hundred students live and maybe ten thousand virtual. Joe: Oh, Dr. Bill: But Joe: My gosh. Dr. Bill: It's been amazing. And if any of your listeners have kids or no kids, fifteen to twenty five will be July 18th to the twenty fourth. They could get more information at w w w dot leap foundation dot com. We've had amazing speakers Paula Abdul, Mark Wahlberg, Anthony Hopkins, Kathy Bates, Michael Strahan, Usher, Apollo Ohno, Jason Alexander. I mean, I could go on and on and on. And these people come, they speak to these kids and they they give them their pearls. They give them their words of wisdom to help these kids become successful. And it's it's an amazing program. And, you know, I was always fearful that people would look at is like one and done like we have them for a week. But by putting out content continuously, we're able to stay in touch with the kids and we have the students stay in touch with each other. And so because I've been able to interview all these amazing people, I started this podcast. It's called Meet the Mentor. And every week I. I interview another person. A big part of Leape is mentorship. The program culminates on Friday with a mentor workshop where I bring in doctors and lawyers and firefighters and writers and actors and actresses, you name it, and the kids get an opportunity to sit and talk to these people one on one and ask them about their careers. And it's so valuable. And it's it's literally the highlight of the week for these students. So I continue that throughout the year by doing this. Meet the Mentor podcast. How is it done? Crazy. I mean, we're number one in Yemen. We're number two in Iceland, number three in Finland. And I think I'm ninety fourth in the category of forty seven thousand of these podcast in the US. And it's it's it's been phenomenal. And the purpose is twofold. One, to keep students engaged and keep, you know, exposing them to different mentors and to to expose parents and friends and family to lead. And hopefully they'll send their kids to the program. Joe: So how did this come about? What was the light bulb that went off for you to say? This really speaks to me. I mean, I can imagine you are with all the things that you've done, your super busy, and then then all of a sudden have this light bulb go off and say, this is how this is. I want to give back and this is how I want to do it. Dr. Bill: You know, I've always been very philanthropic and it's funny because I had this common theme in my life where every time I've committed to do something purely for philanthropy, it's ended up becoming incredibly successful for me on a monetary basis with literally no hidden agenda. And I can give you an example after example after example. The first one being discussed, you know, I was working at at the sports club L.A., which is now an equinox. And a woman came up to me named Cynthia Hearn, who I didn't know and said, would you like to help raise money for children's cancer research? Well, I wasn't wealthy by any stretch of the imagination, but how can you say no to that? Right. Joe: Absolutely. Dr. Bill: So I said, sure. You know, she said, you are a dentist. I said, yes. And she goes, and you're single, right? I'm like, Yeah, but this is weird. She goes, Well, we're doing a bachelor auction and Joe: Oh, Dr. Bill: We need 10 bachelors that we can auction off to a thousand women for this charity, Joe: Oh. Dr. Bill: To be honest with you. That was stupid and humiliating. But out of that, I met Robert Hamit Robert Heyman with the other bats are standing in line beside me. By the way, Robert was over last night. We had dinner. We became instant. Best friends were brothers. Joe: A Dr. Bill: And Joe: Simple. Dr. Bill: Robert and I started discus dental and we literally brewed that company zero to one point three billion dollars. And along the way we've raised over forty five million dollars for children's charities. I mean, a lot of really cool things. But I was exposed to lead through another program that was very much like it was a precursor to lead. And that program was a program for students where they brought mentors in and they asked me to come as a mentor. And unfortunately, the founder of that program passed away. And when you did, I thought, you know, I can make this a nonprofit and keep it going so that that's how I actually got introduced to Lee. Joe: Wow, that's really interesting. So when did this start? By the way? Dr. Bill: So LEEP has been going this summer would have been our 13th, so the fourth theme fleet will come up this summer, but I've been doing the program prior to leave for probably 10 to 15 years before I started. Joe: That's incredible. And when they go out to you said it's on the UCLA campus and where are they staying in dorms, if they. Dr. Bill: Right, so students come from all over the world. We get kids from Australia, from New Zealand, from Europe and Asia and Africa, you name it, it's like a mini UN. It's really fun. And we get about five hundred kids. They all live in the dorms and we put on, you know, I think the best program of its type in the world. And a lot of the success of the program is the community. I mean, I get amazing speakers and they don't charge us. I mean, you couldn't afford to pay, you know, Anthony Hopkins, Mark Wahlberg. I think we'll get Katy Perry this year. I mean, I we couldn't pay, but when I when I talk to him about the program and they see how much passion we put into this, they say, I'll do it, doc, I'll do it. And now with Zoom, it makes everything so much easier because they don't even have to show up prior to the pandemic. If I had told kids. Oh yeah. Mark Wahlberg told Zoom in maybe like and Joe: Yeah. Dr. Bill: Now it's like it doesn't it's like live or Zoom. They're happy to see him. Joe: That's incredible. It's just really the reason this speaks to me is because I feel like in the world that we're in and I'm I just turned fifty nine in February. So next year is a big year for me. And I think about all the time and I don't want to say it was wasted or regret or anything, but I think about that we end up trying to repair ourselves as adults on things that might not have happened. You had your life a little different. You knew exactly what you wanted to do. You followed your path that you're wired differently, your DNA, and you were able to just literally do all of these things. And I'm sure you've had your struggles. So I'm not I'm not painting this picture of, you know, none of that. But it would be so nice to get to these young minds early and explain that the world literally is your oyster. And you need to follow your. And sometimes I don't know. Right. So you say follow your heart. Sometimes they're confused about it. But I love the fact that you're getting to these young minds earlier and you're helping them to understand things sooner. And that's why this program speaks to me so much. I think it's incredible. Dr. Bill: Well, I'll tell you what I have found empirically to be one of the most important factors in all of this. When I sit back and I say, you know, what am I most thankful for, you know, from my parents now, they never bought me a car. They never gave me money. But you know what? They did give me confidence. And confidence is currency, if you are a parent, the greatest, greatest gift that you can give your kids is confidence. And the very first thing we do, at least when a kid walks in that door and I open the program, I say to them, hey, when you woke up this morning, whether you think you did this or not, you put a number on your forehead once the lowest 10, Zayat said. How many of you did not put a 10 on your head? They raised their hand. I said, Who picked the number? You did have to take a test. No, did have to do anything. No, I said wipe it off and put a 10 on that. I said, from now on, I want you to walk like a ten top like a 10, act like a ten. But most importantly, surround yourself with other kids who are tense because you're trying to be a 10 and everybody around you use it to guess what, you become a two. So we give the kids these pop soccer Joe: It's also. Dr. Bill: Support on their phone ten. And you might hear something super crazy. Joe, we sold discus dental on ten, ten, Joe: Oh, Dr. Bill: Ten Joe: Well. Dr. Bill: At 10 a.m. to Philipps. Joe: That's crazy. Dr. Bill: I think about October 10th, 2010, at nine a.m., the merger documents came on like this is you can't write this stuff. I'm waiting till exactly ten o'clock so that when I go to sleep in 2011, I could tell the kids what a perfect ten day looks like. And we I signed that paper and, you know. It was an emotional moment for me. I always knew as against. I'd be comfortable, I had no idea. That I had the ability. To make the kind of money I made when we sold my company, that was like funny money to me, I didn't even think something like that could happen. I didn't grow up that way, you know? And, you know, and I thank my lucky stars every day for for meeting Robert Haymond, for participating in that charity auction, for, I mean, all the things that led up to that. Because I wouldn't I mean, you should see where I'm sitting right now. I'm I'm on the 30th floor of this beautiful condominium in in Century City. I wake up every morning the happiest guy I know. And so, so grateful for everything. It's it's really it's really been amazing. Joe: Well, you know what? Good for you. Well deserved. I can just tell by I do a little bit of research up front for these. I want them to be somewhat spontaneous. But I when I went and looked at what I felt, I wanted to figure out more about who you are. I can tell I can tell from just how you look at the kids that are part of the program. I watched one of your talks to them, and I can tell it really it's super important to you and and your generous and loving and giving back. And it just it's very, very cool. And I appreciate you. Dr. Bill: Well, I think my my my mantra is. Learn so you can earn and then return. And I feel if you can really accomplish those three things, you'll have a lot of happiness and and self satisfaction in life. So that's really what I focus on. Joe: I agree. Well, I literally could talk with you forever. This is amazing. I'm honored that you came on my podcast. What is the best way for someone to get my guests in touch with you in regards to what do you prefer? And also, the lead program has Dr. Bill: Yeah, Joe: The best. Dr. Bill: I mean, believe it or not, I'm the only person I know with probably a million followers who actually answered all of their demands. So Instagram, I don't do tick tock or even Facebook, but if you really want to reach me, it's super easy. It's Dr. Bill Dorfman, D.R Bilel Dorfmann on Instagram. I promise. I answer one hundred percent of my DBMS. If if you're interested in the program, please go to Sleep Foundation dot com. You can sign your kids up right now. And yeah, I think that's. Joe: Well, thank you so much, I appreciate it. I look forward to to seeing more about what happens with LEEP, and I definitely want to stay in contact with you. And I wish you all the best. Dr. Bill: Well, thank you.
I had a conversation with speaker, life coach and author Rocky Garza on life, the choices we make, our happiness and our individual pursuit our time well spent here on earth. We use me as the guinea pig and Rocky and I walk through my scenario, my situation, my thoughts and actions. It was enlightened and he brings up there really cool thought process about our choices and how there is always two truths and a lie and it's up to accept the two truths and how we take action with those truths. Once again, thank you very much for listening. I am humbled and grateful to be in your ears. Much love, Joe Rocky Garza Speaker - Coach - Author Author of: Kill Doubt Build Conviction Website: https://rockygarza.com/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/rockygarza/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/rockygarza LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/rockygarza/ YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC7ID8k8gJC9rR3_1ZuCGWEA Podcast Music By: Andy Galore, Album: "Out and About", Song: "Chicken & Scotch" 2014 Andy's Links: http://andygalore.com/ https://www.facebook.com/andygalorebass If you enjoy the podcast, would you please consider leaving a short review on Apple Podcasts/iTunes? It takes less than 60 seconds, and it really makes a difference in helping to convince hard-to-get guests. For show notes and past guests, please visit: https://joecostelloglobal.libsyn.com Subscribe, Rate & Review: I would love if you could subscribe to the podcast and leave an honest rating & review. This will encourage other people to listen and allow us to grow as a community. The bigger we get as a community, the bigger the impact we can have on the world. Sign up for Joe's email newsletter at: https://joecostelloglobal.com/#signup For transcripts of episodes, go to: https://joecostelloglobal.lybsyn.com Follow Joe: https://linktr.ee/joecostello Transcript Joe: Hey, everybody, thanks so much for joining the podcast and I appreciate you listening and I have an exciting guest today. Rocky and I only met recently on clubhouse. We don't know each other that well, but for me, this is going to be an exciting episode. What he does speaks to my heart. We're going to use me as an example today. He's going to work with me during this conversation. And I'm going to ask him questions that any of you might be able to ask him if you'd hired him to coach you and to help you through whatever it is that you're working on. And so I'm very excited to have. Rocky Garza, thank you for coming on, Rocky. It's a pleasure to have you. Rocky: Yeah, thank you so much, Joe. It is an honor to be here. It was fun being in in the room, a clubhouse together. And looking back now, I was trying to think about it this morning. Like, what room? What are we and where we even landed here. And I don't exactly remember even what the room was, but I know at some point you had mentioned and said something that I thought, you know what? I'm going to I'm going to reach out. I know I shot at the end and we went from there. But I was thinking this morning, how do we even land here? But you know what? I'm I'm the kind of person that. All I know is I was supposed to be here and something you said resonated enough to be able to say, I'm going to reach out and it's been less than 10 days and here we are. So I'm really glad to be here. Joe: Yeah, that's perfect. It's the way it should happen, it should be that people resonate with each other. There's something that that they can mutually benefit from and then also help the rest of the world by serving in some way. So I'm excited about this. So I like to always start these off to give as much time as you need. But I like to do a back story. I like to know where you are, who you Rocky: Yeah. Joe: Are, where you came from, where you are today. How did you get there from where you were. Rocky: Yeah, Joe: So if you don't Rocky: Yeah, Joe: Mind doing that, it would be Rocky: Yeah, Joe: Awesome. Rocky: Yeah. Yeah, I would love that, I love that. I think so much, yeah. So I'm going to go all the way back to the beginning because I think there is value for all of us as we begin to begin or continue to kind of unpack who we are and what that means for kind of the steps and the actions we will take moving forward from our present day. I think I think we kind of have to go back to the beginning. And I'm sure we've all heard phrase like our origin story or in childhood as like. And so I think there's there's an immense value in our ability to do that. And so I was born in Kansas, but I only lived there for like two weeks. And then I moved back to Dallas. And so I don't claim Kansas other than it's on my birth certificate. But Dallas, Texas, has always been home for me. My parents got divorced when I was two and so my dad got remarried when I was seven. He's still married, has two boys, so I have two half brothers, but I never live with my dad. Growing up after my parents got divorced, I moved a ton growing up like like 13 times before I graduated high school just from either my mom's house, my grandparents back to my mom's to a different house, to back to my grandparents and so on. And really, a lot of that was like pre seventh grade. My mom's been married and divorced a few times, slash jobs, slash just life change. Rocky: And so we moved. We moved around a bunch. I'm an only child, my mom's only child. So it's kind of just me and her slash me and my grandma immigrant, my grandfather. That's kind of how my life was growing up. And I went to junior high. I went to high school, graduated high school, went to junior college for a couple of years, mostly because I didn't know what I wanted to do and I thought I was going to go play football. And then at the last point, I was like, I don't even really like football that much. Like, why would I go do that for four years? That doesn't seem like a good idea. Anyway, I went to junior college for a couple of years, transferred to A&M here in Texas is where I went to college for my junior and senior year. Where I graduated from went there on a Fulbright scholarship. I'm not an academic and I barely graduated college. But somehow, via my survival tactics of charisma and words and being in the right place at the right time, I found my way into a full ride scholarship to college. After my first semester in college, I lost my scholarship because I didn't make grades. I didn't fail out of college, but I just didn't keep that GPA that you're supposed to have to keep or someone pays for you to go to school. And I look back and I kind of use that and there's probably, you know, a hundred pivotal moments prior to that. Rocky: But but I always kind of lead up to that moment because I think for me, that was probably the first time as a as a semi adult, I guess I really wasn't adult. Yeah. But a semi adult to realize that was kind of the first pivotal thing in my life that kind of put me in a position to look back and recognize what decisions I had been making up into that point. You know, I think for all of us, I'm a pretty firm believer that whatever happens to us between the ages of six and 12 that we do to survive. And when I say survive, I don't necessarily mean life or death, but I do mean what we do to get by right now. Some of us, that is our story. But for many of us, it's not to say life and death, but survival is how did we form what we knew to be true about the world, test those theories and then find out they were, in fact, true. That's kind of the progression of our childhood. And so to me, that that that a six to twelve age is really foundational in that it's where we are abstracting things to see how they work. I learned between ages of six and 12, if I could out. Thank you. Outtalk talk you out with you out, shmooze you out, connect. You get to know you what I would call it invulnerability now is more a mature adult. Rocky: I actually look back and say, call disclosure. I was actually not being about anything. I was just disclosing the same information to you. I was told everybody else, but I learned that if I could do that in such a way, it would allow me and in but also keep me safe enough that if you left or I left, you couldn't hurt me like the people in my past had right there. Like this fear of being left is fear of being abandoned, this fear of not being loved. I had found a way to navigate myself in such a way that I could keep myself away from you, but also convinced you we were close enough. Right. And I think this moment when I look at college and losing my scholarship was this moment of going. I'm finding myself. I'm twenty years old. I'm in college. I now have no money for school. I haven't talked to my dad in three years. I haven't seen my mom in a year and a half. I don't really have any really good friends because I've isolated myself in this weird dynamic of him. I close. Am I not close? What does it actually mean? And everyone thinks that I'm awesome and that they love me. And simultaneously I've never felt more alone in my life. And I think if I look at my life, this is not Saddam seven. And a lot of counseling, I feel pretty good about where I'm at today, OK, but I think as I look at that point in my life and go. Rocky: All the things that I was doing, all the activity that I was that I was involved in, all the pieces that I was attempting to put together have led me to a place where I am the most alone, the most isolated and recognizing, the most unfulfilled that I have ever been. And yet. There has to be something else, there has to be something different than what I have been doing over and over and over and over, and so I don't know what the answer was. I just knew whatever I'd been doing, it ain't working. And we've got to try something else. And so, thankfully, I ended up finding a way to get my grandparents kind of stepped in and help me pay for college. And really from that point on, that was back in 2000, 1990. Sorry, sorry. That's not true. I was back in 2003, really from then until now. So the last 17, 18 years has really been for me, I think as I look back has been this journey of discovery, this this space of going how do I, one, discover and uncover who I am to find a way to believe that is good. So clarity is one thing, but confidence in that clarity is something totally different. And then once I believe it's good, how do I like actively and then actually do something about it? How do I use that in my life? And I end up going to a place called Sky Ranch here in Texas. Rocky: It's a summer camp for kids. And I worked there full time for a few years right out of college. I was actually on pastoral staff at a church for about three and a half years. After that, I, I met my wife. We started a photography business back in 2010, and we did that full time together for about five years. And then I started the company I have now about six years ago. And so and that's that's a fast track of 15 years there. But in all of that, it was this discovery. Identify. Look to see if it actually is good, if I believe it's good, how do I uncover the wounds? You know, there's there's a kind of cheesy phrase I say often, but it's like in order to dress your wounds, you have to address your wounds. And I think for me, in that period of time, it was like me addressing my wounds, like, hey, how many times did somebody to say, Hey, bro, you're bleeding? Before I was like, look at look at that. That is what that is like. And I think the last 15 years has been this these continual perpetual moments. And it sounds a little bit like sad and hurtful. And this definitely moments of sad and hurtful. But how beautiful does it feel the moment we recognize we have a wound and we address it and then we address it? How much better is that? Right. Rocky: That's the only way healing can happen. And so for me, that career, such job I have now, for me as a marriage of my life experience, how do I take everything that I've seen and known growing up? How do I marry that with eight years of full time ministry, which I just defined as deeply caring for people with a fundamental belief that I think people are good and then marry that with eight to 10 years of entrepreneurship and go, how do we take what we have experienced in our life with a fundamental belief that we are good and put that together to go, what do I get to experience? What is the freedom that could come from the reality of allowing myself to fully be known? What is involved in that freedom, is it is it that I get to make more money if that's my desire? Probably is that I get to have deeper relationships, because that's something that I'm pursuing. Probably this that I have find a freedom to sit in isolation. I don't feel fear that everyone's going to judge me or not like me. And I consistently say I'm a people pleaser when in fact I'm just a relationship seeker, probably. But I think it comes back to we have to start in a space to go. Am I known? I mean, do I know myself? Do I have a language for that? Am I clear about that? Do I have confidence that it's good to have the courage to live it out? And then finally, do I have the conviction that says this is a deep sea to believe I am no longer willing to jeopardize? And that is that is that is a huge and mixed with millions of, you know, variables. Rocky: They go into all that. But for where I am today, you know, why why do I wake up every day today? I would say that I wake up every day because I want to be able to challenge others to live vulnerably so that you can experience the freedom that comes with being fully known. And in that freedom, as I think where we landed this place to go, financial freedom, relational freedom, confidence in ourselves, trust that we are good. But I think it begins by beginning to live vulnerable because I define vulnerability as creating the opportunity to see and be seen by others. If we can't start there, then we don't actually know what we're looking at. So there is no clarity. And if there's no clarity, then the other things don't happen either. And so it's not always that linear and that simple. But at the same time, I kind of think sometimes it is that linear and it is that simple. We've got to be able to go back, though, to a place to where we can begin to uproot and uncover what those fear, doubts, obstacles, insecurities are so that we can begin to make a path for. Joe: Wow, that's powerful. That's a you sure went through a lot in the short amount of time, but I appreciate you laying all that out. Do you feel like you're in the best place you've ever been at this point in your life? Rocky: I simultaneously feel like I am actively moving in the clearest I have ever felt about me, what I do and what I can do for someone and question almost every day, is this exactly what I'm supposed to be doing? And if I could really hone in to what I really think I should be doing and I say doing, I mean, for me to get really specific business, product, service price, like if I could if I could, you know, move ourself in, do I think in my life, is this the most clear and free I've ever felt? 100 percent. I was looking back and Instagram on my 30th birthday. I'm thirty seven now. I'll be 38 this year. So almost eight years ago I was in Marfa, Texas with two friends. We had no kids yet and I put an Instagram post. It was like me standing back when I used to have hair shout out to people like you and me and I used to have hair. If you don't know that John are both bald and I would sit in front of this bus and Marfa and I had a I was like 11:00 a.m. with a margarita taco on my hand. And my my my caption was like, I'm 30 years old today. It is the best I have felt physically, mentally, spiritually, like emotionally like man. Great. And I look back at that and I'm like, what a joke. Because today I'm like, I feel the muscle, you know. Joe: Right. Rocky: But but I think. What does that mean? It's been a constant upward trajectory. No, it's been I mean, it's been it's looked about ninety seven bell curves between that moment in this moment. Right. But I think in that to go why I think I come back to to answer your question. Why come back to go like like with like service, product and price. I guess that they're right because I think I feel so passionately about who I am and the belief that it's good and what I can do with that, that it's it's a whole other conversation and podcast episode to go. How do we take that and then find a way to meet a need in the market, find a way to communicate it effectively at a price point that is doable, that is actually sustainable, that it's not in exchange for time for money and really build a business out of that. That's the million dollar, no pun intended question for me. I think a lot of the time, and it's do I believe in myself what I'm doing? And I'm confident in my ability to affect change in someone's life. One hundred percent do I always feel confident, know how to sell that know. And I'm learning more and more that that's OK. And I need to go to people for help, because if I go back and say, what am I good at, it's not any of those things. And so that's OK. But I have to be able to be also confident if I need people in my life to help me, because I'm not sure I can get there. And I should say that I am 100 percent positive I cannot get there by myself. Joe: Right. So you, from my understanding now, you are a coach as one of the things that you do. You're an author, Rocky: Yeah. Joe: You're a coach. We're going to talk about your book later on in the podcast. Rocky: Yeah. Joe: The book that's coming out. But from my own research, I saw certain podcast episodes you were on, either the ones that you've done yourself with guest videos. And I saw a piece about identity mapping that Rocky: Yeah. Joe: You talk about. And I Rocky: No. Joe: Also saw another thing about self-love and but it was self-love focused towards men. Right. Because it is a different thing for sure, Rocky: 100 Joe: Because Rocky: Percent. Joe: Guys just don't think that way. Right. And so that was interesting Rocky: Yep, Joe: As well. Rocky: Yeah. Joe: But so let's use me as an example. OK, I am not allowed to tell you my Rocky: Great. Joe: Age because I've been telling my age too much and my girlfriend Joan thinks that I'm going to it's going to cause Rocky: Gary. Joe: Me harm if I keep saying the age that I am. And so I'm not going to tell you my age, but I'm all of that. So I've gone through my whole life, my and my ultimate focus when I first started was to eventually tour the world as a as a musician and be this this famous drummer and tour with John Mayer, let's say, as an example. So I went to college for music, but then when I got out, Rocky: Ok. Joe: I became an entrepreneur living down in New York City. I still played I was like a weekend warrior and would go play gigs Thursday through Sunday. But my focus was building a business because I took the mind frame of, hey, instead of me acting as, you know, like being a musician and struggling to make it, how about I do something that I know I'm really good at right now, which is being creating a business, being an entrepreneur, having that business be successful so that I didn't have to worry about the financial piece any longer. Rocky: Right. Joe: And then having the money I could go then now pursue a music career and buy my own tour bus and pay really great musicians to be part of my band. And so this was the frame of mind that I had a Rocky: Mm hmm. Joe: Bad, bad move. I would never tell any person in any career of anything, not just music, but anything that you got to go full steam ahead towards the thing that you want. And you can't have there. There's people that have different theories on burning the boats and not having a Plan B.. I'm all in on just have that plan and go for it. Burn the boats, do not Rocky: Yeah. Joe: Have a plan B and it'll happen if you put in the work. I didn't put in the work musically, so I am where I am today. I take on all the responsibility that I didn't do what I needed to the 10000 hours to be John Mayer Strummer. Rocky: Ok. Joe: Now fast forward, I am successful as a entertainment booking agent. I own my own company and Phoenix started Rocky: And. Joe: It in 2011 was when it first started and it became more official around 2013. Successful Management Entertainment Booking Agency does it. I like it. I'm good at it. I like doing it. Does it does it make my soul sing now? Probably not. Have I found what I should be doing in this world? I don't think so. Rocky: Hmm. Joe: Am I? Am I servicing? Am I, am I giving to the world something that leaves a legacy that I feel really good about? Yeah, I put hundreds of musicians to work every year, but is that how I want to be remembered? I don't think so. Rocky: Hmm. Joe: So this Rocky: Yeah, Joe: Is where Rocky: Yeah, Joe: You come in. So Rocky: Yeah. Joe: I sit every day now and I struggle going, OK, I like doing my podcast. I love meeting people like you. I love surrounding myself by humble, kind, successful entrepreneurs, not the ones who are constantly boasting on clubhouse that they're multibillionaires and this and that and taking pictures in front of Lamborghinis and jets. So I'm going through the struggle of identity purpose. Rocky: Yeah. Joe: How how do I service Rocky: Yeah. Joe: The world? Rocky: Yeah, so my first question almost always, and not because I expect you to be and if you rattle off an answer, we're going to get to work. If you don't, then you're in the 99 percent of us who don't always have an answer. So I'm going to give that give you that freedom, but. What do you want? Joe: So this is the part that's that's tough because we talk about I want financial freedom where I never have to think about money Rocky: Ok, Joe: And Rocky: Ok, so Joe: I Rocky: Let's Joe: Want Rocky: Let's Joe: It and Rocky: Yeah, Joe: I want Rocky: Let's. Joe: It also because I want it to be able to help my family first, which is what's in my brother. I don't have my my parents are no longer alive, but my brother and my sister, obviously my immediate family, Joel and my girlfriend of 20 some years, Rocky: Mm Joe: You Rocky: Hmm. Joe: Know, her daughter, my two kids and my immediate family. And then from there, I would love to be able to give four hundred thousand dollars a year to that charity and give a million dollars Rocky: Mm hmm. Joe: A year to that charity Rocky: Mm hmm. Joe: And go over and build schools and whatever. Just I didn't Rocky: Great. Joe: Have to think about that piece of it. Rocky: Yeah, OK, so tell me what you feel like, what is accomplished if and when you are able to achieve. If I say what do you want and your your guttural response is financial freedom. OK, then you broke down for me what financial freedom looks like the practical side of where the money would go and that what do you feel like is going to happen? What what what changes for you if you don't have to think about money anymore? Joe: That any action that I take that I feel is the right action. I don't have to think whether or not money plays a part in that because Rocky: Ok. Joe: That has been removed, that's been taken off the table. So Rocky: Ok, Joe: If Rocky: So right Joe: I Rocky: Now, Joe: Want Rocky: Right Joe: To. Rocky: Now, the biggest yeah, right now the biggest inhibitor to you really pursuing what you believe at any moment is that the first question that always comes to mind is what is the financial implication of this decision? And do I have the capacity to make this decision based on my other responsibilities? I have other places with money. If I choose this question number one always is, what is the financial implication of this? Joe: Correct, especially Rocky: Ok. Joe: At an older age, you're like, OK, Rocky: Yeah. Joe: I've been busting my hump, by no means am I in any financial distress, but Rocky: Sure. Joe: To just never Rocky: To not Joe: Have Rocky: Think Joe: To Rocky: About Joe: Think Rocky: It. Joe: About saying, hey, I'm going to go and spend a month helping someone to build schools because it's something that's good and it gives back that would be cool to do. Rocky: Ok, OK, so let's use that, let's use that, why can you not go to Guatemala in May for a month this year to go help build a school? Why can't you go do that? Joe: Because if my focus is on doing something like that, then I can't focus on at this point running the business that I have because I had four employees before covid hit. Now it's me. So I'm literally running this entire business alone Rocky: Ok, Joe: Again. Rocky: Ok, Joe: So Rocky: So Joe: Then Rocky: So Joe: The money Rocky: What? Joe: Dries up if I'm Rocky: Yeah, Joe: Not doing it right. Rocky: Yeah, right, OK, so what I want to say, so it's beautiful. Thank you. What I just heard you say is right now, the problem is not money right now, the problem is, is that given a million external circumstances that we couldn't control. I mean, I'm with I'm in the same boat as you right now. The problem is not money. Right now. The tension we are feeling is that we are in a position that our work requires us and therefore our work. We are questioning whether or not that work that we are doing is the thing we actually want to be doing. Joe: Mm hmm. Rocky: Because I think if you love your your work that you were doing. Again, we're not saying you don't like it. Everybody who's listening to shut out your client or work with him, he loves it. OK, just take that note. Joe Joe: I Rocky: Loves a job. Joe: Like that good. Rocky: What we're saying is it's not that you don't like your work. We're saying is you feel a longing to pursue and do something different with your time. Maybe we're not sure what that is, but it feels like the contingency point to give you the freedom to go do that is the fear that if I did that, will there be money? And by money we mean will there be safety? And by safety we mean will we be OK and be OK? Meaning will I have to rely on someone again? Because where I've relied on people in the past, they have let me down and I am unwilling to commit myself to something or someone where that you have the opportunity to walk and it is fundamentally destructive to me. You will not do that to me again, Joe: Yeah, Rocky: I Joe: It's Rocky: Fear. Joe: Yeah, and it's it's wanting to do something so much bigger. Rocky: And I would say I want to challenge you because it's part of my my role and who I am as a person. I want you to do an exercise whenever we're done here, just we'll chat about it again offline is I want you to really look at it and define what it is that you see and believe that impact is directly a result and equal to size as opposed it is to depth. I hear you saying I want to have a broad impact. I want to do something that is seen in big and broad. And I'm saying just as a challenge, not because I'm right. What about depth, though? What about the artist who you work with who couldn't pay their rent or buy groceries for their child if you weren't helping them get gigs? And their life is fundamentally different because you've taken a risk to be the person that allows them to pursue something they love that you are unwilling to do, that they are willing to do. And you are actually a proponent for hundreds of musicians to fulfill their dreams and feed their families. And without you as an integral piece in their life, they would not be able to fulfill something significant in who they believe that they are. And so because of that, your impact is so deep and with one hundred artists is in fact broad and wide that your breadth and depth actually are simultaneously changing the lives of every person that hires you and works with you because they could not pursue their dream in the way you wish someone would have stood in the gap for you. Rocky: Twenty five, thirty five years ago. You are consistently standing in the gap and providing that opportunity for somebody else. And so sure, it's not sexy like a school in Guatemala. Sure. It's not as elaborate as writing a massive check that we get to go to the gala for when covid is over and drink champagne and someone gives us a little plaque that we're going to throw away so we don't care about anyone. That's not why we gave the money. It's not the freedom. I wish I could just choose whatever I want. No, you don't. You are choosing what you want. If you didn't if you weren't choosing what you wanted, you wouldn't be doing it. Every human being. This is not just for Joan was for you as a listener. You say I'm doing something I don't really want to. Yes, you do. If you didn't want to, you wouldn't do it, period. Well, I can't do that because if I don't do this, I won't have enough money. Rocky: So go to an apartment, sell your house, get rid of your car, ride the train. You don't you don't want to do that. You want to do that. You do what you want. Generally speaking, outside of external circumstances were always out of our control, so I don't don't hear me say that if you're like no, you don't understand where I'm at, you're correct. I don't understand where you're at. And if you're in a position, you absolutely have to do what you're doing and you hate it. Hey, we've all been there to some degree. So, I mean, I'm not making a statement about your abilities any anybody who's listening, but here specifically for most of us. I think you are doing what you want. I think that we lose sight at times, that it is, in fact what we want. I think we lose sight at times about the impact we are really making. And so sure, maybe, maybe, Joe, maybe 40 years ago, you didn't actually make the step that you wanted to take. But there's hundreds of people a year that you are affecting change and given the opportunity to take that step and you and only you are the one who has the capacity to stand in the gap and help them do and see that. Joe: Yeah, I mean, you're right, I've gotten phone calls and texts and emails saying, dude, you saved my life this year, like you doubled my salary. You brought more opportunity to me than I have ever had before. But again, while I I do like getting those calls and emails and texts and I feel good about that, I feel like someone of my I don't know who Rocky: Say Joe: I am. Rocky: It, own it, own it, Joe: Yeah, Rocky: Own Joe: I Rocky: It, Joe: Know. Rocky: Say it. Joe: It's just like I feel like there's I could do so much more I, I feel like I'm not living big enough. Rocky: Ok, so Joe: That's Rocky: Now Joe: It. Rocky: So great, great. That is totally different and has nothing to do with financial freedom, it has nothing to do with depth or breadth. It is you feel in your soul there is something else before you die that there is you want to do and pursue. And so I'm going to challenge you to say, stop saying that it's financial freedom that's keeping you back. That is untrue. You have there has never been a moment you and I have known each other now for thirty five minutes. Exactly. OK, I know by just talking to you for thirty five minutes, there has never been a moment in Joe Costello's life where he did not do and have the capacity to make sure that he had the ability to care for himself and those around him, no matter how hard it was he was one to do, was required to make it work. Right. OK, so nothing is different today than it was five years, 10 years or twenty five years ago. So if there's something big and audacious, if there's something you're saying, this is this is it for me, if you're saying I want to get to the root of this, other thing that I can talk about is like money and freedom and donations and but all those things fall into a philanthropic legacy, giving of self to other space that we could pick a million things that fall in that category. Great, then let's do let's figure out what do you want, what do you where do you really want to have an impact the day you're gone? They say, man, that guy Joe. And I bet I bet if we went to your clients, you've had the longest that we pick 10 clients, you've had the longest and gave them a worksheet to fill out and say, could you give me the attributes about Joe? You appreciate what you like he has done for you, the impact he has had in your life. Rocky: I bet every single one of them would say something very synonymous to each other. And then if we could take that and say, where do you want to point that energy? That is, Joe, the music, the the gigs, the entertainment that just happened to be the cat catnap, the tunnel, the vessel, the we knew it and we liked it and we found it out. And then, you know, fast forward 20 years. We wake up and here we are. I think you're just saying I want to change the vessel, the work you're doing. We've already agreed as impactful that people texting you saying you are changing my life, saving my life. That's like shit that people send like a paramedic or their brain surgeon or like they don't send that to their music manager like that. What is it? What does that even mean? OK, so we're identifying the beauty. We are identifying the uniqueness. We are identifying the very specific impact that you have had, you currently have and you future have to continue to make. We are saying we got to do the work to identify where do I want to point that and where do I want to spend the next 15, 20, 30, 40 years? Pointing that energy, because I know that I have it and I know that I can now have a proven track record to say that it's there. So where do I want to point it? I don't want to think about what is inhibiting me from changing the direction. I want to identify the component that's going to allow me to push it in that direction, moving forward. Joe: So I've had other people on the podcast that in one of them happens to be a gentleman named Patrick Combs and Patrick and his partner Eric run a company called BLIS Champions. And the whole Rocky: Ok. Joe: Purpose of it is finding your bliss, right, Rocky: Mm Joe: Finding your Rocky: Hmm. Joe: Purpose. It's it's this and this has been the theme this whole past year. OK, what is it like? What covid hit the world shut down. Right. And so the entertainment business got hit really hard. So I basically had a list of things I wanted to do. Pot Rocky: And. Joe: Starting the podcast was one of them starting a YouTube channel, which alone was another thing we did. But when I sit here and I and I went through an exercise the other day where you make two columns and you make I forget what it was, if it was like all the things you're good at and all the things you're interested in or something like that, and you draw you draw an arrow from the left column to the right column to the thing that sort of matches that to narrow down what it is that you think you're here to do. That's the part. And I look at it like, oh, got at my age, why would I still be struggling to find that thing? And that's the frustrating part. It's like, how do people and this is for my audience to is anybody who's listening. I am so jealous of anybody that has found their purpose. Their bliss wakes up every day. And this is what I was put here to do. This is what I love to do. And not only does this all work for me, but it actually creates this world that I like to live in. And I Rocky: Mm Joe: Can Rocky: Hmm. Joe: And I and I don't think about money like the combination Rocky: Mm hmm. Joe: Of having doing having your bliss, your purpose in your bliss and at the same time not thinking about anything financial. To me, that's like the match made in heaven. Rocky: I mean, my answer to that is, yeah, if you can if you find that course, hey, I'll pay for both of us to go. And I say that and I say that, like 50 percent joking, also 50 percent serious. But I say that because I want to humanize for you and mostly for you and me, because we're the ones talking. But for all for all the listeners as well. I want to humanize the reality. I want to humanize the statement of what you are saying and feeling that even as me someone that I want to make a few assumptions and then you correct me if I'm wrong, but like, you go and you're like, OK, I look at this guy Rocky, and I look at this brand. And sure, he had a few broken links on his website, but that's OK because I helped him with that. But he has a brand and he's on point and his colors and his photos and he seems clear about what he's doing. I heard him on clubhouse and I said yes on a podcast. And like he seems to be speaking true that he seems to be genuine and all the words you would use that you hope you could say about yourself. Right. Joe: Mm Rocky: Like Joe: Hmm. Rocky: He has this and isn't it so? And I say, all right, because I want to humanize the reality of I'm sure that is true. I feel pretty good, like I have to be able to stand Konovalenko. I don't have to caveat that. Like, I feel like I have a good marriage and I work really hard at it and I'm trying to be the best father that I can that with limited knowledge and experience of not really having one growing up. And I feel like I'm I'm crushing it like I love my kids and they love me and and both, not one or the other like. And so I have this idea that's another a book that I want to write. So I'm going to pitch it here and we'll see if it resonates. It resonates. We'll write it if it doesn't and scrap it, it's terrible. So but I think we all live me too in this space. And there's an old game we used to play when we were young called Two Truths in a Lie. Right. And you say two things are true. One's a line. You got to guess which one. OK, I think we all collectively every day we have been lied to and conditioned that we forget that there are two truth in a lie and every statement that we make and then we go, I'm either going to have this or this, I'm either going to be the full expression of everything that I am and financial freedom. And it's this or. Life's really pretty hard. It's kind of dull and it doesn't make sense. And here's the here's the premise. There's always two truth in a lie. And the two truths always exist together. And the only thing that makes life real and worth living is that both truths have to be true simultaneously. The lie is, is that we think we only have to believe one. The lie is we think only one is actually true, so you know what 20, 20 was like for you and me, I'm going to chalk it up. It was actually. Man, it was good, like we Joe: Mm Rocky: Did Joe: Hmm. Rocky: Good work. Joe: Yeah. Rocky: And it was really is costing a lot on your podcast I don't get to listen Joe: Yeah, Rocky: To, Joe: Absolutely, Rocky: Ok, Joe: Yeah, Rocky: It was good and it was really fucking hard. Joe: Yeah. Rocky: Both. So the two truths in the lie are that it was really good and really hard, and the lie says it's either one or the other. And so for this scenario, for you guys, there's got to be more I got there's got to be something out there that I could just get this then this thing would happen. But instead I'm going to have this, which means Branfman, I guess it'll just be it is what it is and everything is fine, but like, it wasn't great. It was just like it worked. But no, what if what if what you're doing now is working and the fact that it's still working, it's just you and yes. Sad for employees are gone. So you're still kind of you're back in the weeds again. But what you're doing you can do in your sleep. You've got a podcast. You got this guy who's bald with big eyebrows on your podcast right now we're talking about. So you've got at least a little bit of autonomy to do what you want. Right. So Joe: Yeah. Rocky: Both can be true. Continue with what you're doing and streamline, streamline, put it down, the process is squeeze it, systematize it as more than you already. I'm sure it already has, but make it even more so that we only need one employee to make up for the three we had last time to give by your time a little bit for you to have a little bit of breathing room to go. Both. I think I can have this and I think I can create the the depth of impact in every arena of my life. And I'm looking for. Because I think if we could you and me are our listeners, but you and me. If we could find the places where we recognize the depth of our impact was not only significant, but but it scratch the itch we had in ourselves and our own soul. We would think less about money. And listen, I'm a proponent for money, I'm trying to make money, I got a business, I want money and I got a business. Got what? I want some asking me how much I could make. I want to try to find it, make as much as I can. I'm all about money. I'm not. Let me be very clear about that. But when I go to my son's room. He says, hey, dad, can you play with me? I say, sure, what you want to do. He says, I want to wrestle. Rocky: So Carlos Resum. And I am experiencing a moment in my own life that I. Hardly ever experienced. As the son in that engagement. I'm not thinking about how much money that I made. I'm not thinking about who did or didn't pay their invoice. I'm not thinking about it. I can I if I get enough money, you know what, I could wrestle as much as I wanted to if I made more money. Now, you know what? I can wrestle as much as I want to. That's the end of the statement. I want to challenge somebody asked me I did a bunch of along along here on Instagram with stories yesterday and a good friend of mine messaged me this morning, he was like, hey, this is awesome. Also, why does this matter? And he wasn't being a smart aleck. He was like, hey, I'm trying to help you to the expression to be fully known. He was like, what happens when you're fully known? Why is that good? Why does it matter? What do I get? Why don't I like hey, you're a really good friend because I don't want to talk about that much. I appreciate that. But I think our conversation today is kind of leading to that place to go. So. So. So then what, Rocky? You're just telling me to just do what I want. No, I'm telling you, friend, you're already doing what you want, but I feel like you don't want to do it. Rocky: So I'm asking you to ask yourself the question. What do you want? Do you want to know the language that you need to have for yourself so you can find the freedom to be able to pursue what you want? OK, then let's do that. Let's figure it out. Why do you do what you do? How do you do what you do? What do you do? That's what identity mapping is. Identity mapping is a four hour process that you and me walk through one on one or me meeting a group of your team or organization walking around eight hours and you will leave, I can guarantee you 100 percent you will leave with a clearest language you have ever had about how you operate as a human being, not in professional, as a human. You will create 13 words in a piece of paper that are make impossible, it is mathematically impossible for anyone in the world who has ever been alive or currently alive. To choose the same 13 words as you know, put them in the same order, it's impossible. And we're not even talking about you, is it what you're doing? We're talking like 13 arbitrary words on a piece of paper. Some of us need language. That's step one. We need language because we we're not clear. We would call step one clarity. But clarity only comes when you can see something. Rocky: If you don't have a language, you can't see it. So everything is a reaction. It is not as being proactive, as us being reactive. Right. So why aren't some of us need language, I just don't know I know what I'm good at, but I don't really know how to. OK, you need words. Some of us have words. And that's where we get calls. Like we have the words. I know why and how and what I know I've been doing a long time, but I just doesn't feel like it's good, you know, like I feel like I'm missing something. Well, that's that's comforting. Confidence is simply the ability to believe that it's good. You referenced earlier and we talked about self-love and self care and how much specifically for men. You know, I think men most men lack confidence. We make up for the fact that we lack confidence by trying to conquer something as opposed to cultivating something. We think if we could conquer it, then we win as opposed to cultivating in the last forever. Nobody nobody who conquered something has a good legacy there, Nazel. But every person you know, has a great legacy, cultivated something beautiful because it's still growing. That's what a legacy is. A legacy is not a marker of what you did. A legacy is the fact that what you did continues to thrive. Right, and Joe: Yeah, Rocky: So Joe: It's powerful. Yeah. Rocky: Some of us, some of us need clarity, some of us need language, we get the language, then we need clarity. Can we see it right can as it makes sense to us? Yeah, OK. Do we have confidence? Can we look at that and believe it's good self-confidence, the ability to look at yourself and say that is good. OK, got it cleared, economists break what's next? Do you have the courage? Courage is the ability to move forward at any pace, even in the midst of fear and unknown, are you willing to every day move towards the thing that you really believe? Yes, I am. Great. And you did yesterday? Yep. Today, yes. Great lasta conviction. Do you believe that thing in your soul enough? That it is a deep seated belief you are unwilling to waver from or jeopardize. No matter what comes your way. Motivation is still your mind, you can do it. Inspiration is telling your heart, you can do it. Conviction is telling your soul. You must do it. That's why Solasta takes a lot of work. And so some of us, we need language, some of us get the language and identity mapping, then we need clarity. That means you need help, you need a coach, you need somebody like that. Rocky: And me, it could be anybody you want, but we need somebody in our life to go, hey, help me see what I can't see and help me have the confidence to believe that it's good. And then at some point, people are in my space, I would say at that point, hey, we did our thing, we got the words, we got the clarity, we got the confidence. We're ready. We're doing it. I need a plan. Great. I have a good idea. Ideas. You probably know somebody other than me to execute the plan, though, because I'm still trying figure out my own plan. I'm problematic, I should say, about your plan. Right. Like I know where my but where the stops and I'm ready to pass you on to the next man or woman who can really help you. And so I think for all of us, we find ourselves in any variable of any one of those places at any point in time. I think it begins by us acknowledging that what is that place and where am I at and. Am going to do with that. Joe: Yeah, I feel like going through this process and and not only telling you this story on this episode, but having this conversation with myself, having this conversation with Joel and having it with other friends, that to me, it's the more and more I can talk about it. My hope is that the clarity will come because I have to like you said, it's super important. It's the language, right? It's how you you talk about it and it's saying more of what you want as opposed to more what you don't want. Right. Because what you think about and what you talk about is what ends up becoming more true. So you have to be careful about the words you use and the thoughts you think. That's why it's fun to talk about this with you, because the more and more I talk about it, I feel like it helps to my hope is that it helps to bring clarity at some point and say this is what you were here to do. And the cool thing is that you hit upon us. Don't throw away the baby with the bathwater, like you've already done a lot of cool things and you've helped people. But, you know, I think I'm in a different stage now. So what do I do with the remaining 40 years of my life if I if I actually reach that so. Rocky: And I think and I think I think that's a great question to ask, and I think there's great opportunity for all of us to think about, to consider, regardless of our age and where we are in our career, our job, whatever language we want to use, there is great opportunity for us to be able to say today, I'm not going to talk about what I don't want. I'm going to talk about what I do want. And then I'm going to I'm going to look and say, do I think I have the words to identify that I don't ask for help? I don't either. My whole business is how many people have identity, purpose, understanding who you are, what that means and why that matters to be fully known. And you know what I did last week and I'm doing this week, I got three different people coming to my office to help me work through a process to really hone in my why what it is because I can't do it by myself. Doesn't work that way, humans, we're not we're not designed that way. Right, Joe: Yeah. Rocky: We have only we only have eyes in the front of our head for a reason. So we were made to have somebody behind this or maybe have somebody with us. Joe: Yeah. Rocky: And so I hope if you're listening today and you're joining us wherever you are in the car at home, and I hope you if I could leave you with anything, it would be that don't let fear of school and security. They all exist. They're all human. We all have them to say, you don't. You're lying. Yes, you do. Showing the crowd coming to the party. But don't let those things be the lie that we continue to believe that inhibit us from really pursuing the things that we love, the people we love, the relationships that we love. Daouda, sneaky man. It doesn't it's it's sneaky. It doesn't care about us. It is. It will wait. It is patient. And just the moment you think you have the guts to do it, it's going to remind you of some B.S. story that somebody told you at some point in your life. Don't don't let it win. It's work, it's work, digging, uprooting, cultivating, unearthing, it ain't easy. I can tell you that right now. Not easy, but it can be not easy and good. Both things can be true. Is it's only going to be one or the other. That's just not how it works. Joe: Yeah, that's a powerful statement you brought up in this this episode. It's really cool that know the one line, the two truths, right? It's it's a cool thing to remember to keep that in your mind. And I. I like that a lot. It was really cool. Rocky: Yeah, yeah, thank you. Joe: So do me a favor. Let's talk about the book Rocky: Yeah, yeah, so Joe: Well. Rocky: The book is called Kill Doubt, Build Conviction, and kind of under the premise of really what I talked about here just in this last part. So I'm kind of at a place where in my experience in working with individuals in my own life, I believe there are two stories that are at play in our life at all times. The stories that are told to us about us and the stories we tell ourselves about ourselves. Those two stories hold an immense amount of weight. They become wildly impactful when they intersect. So I grew up people telling my whole life stories told to me about me. Rocky, too intense. You're too emotional. You're too this year, too. Right. And so when that story, I can't control that. Now, be very clear that if the story told to me about me, I can control that. But when the story I tell myself about myself is rockier, too intense, and you see their face, you see his face when you were talking to him, calm down. It's not too much. Now, what happens is those two stories collide. And upon that intersection, I believe, is where doubt, fear an obstacle is born. It's birthed in that moment. And every time those intersect again, it grows legs and grows feet and grows arms and becomes more active in her life. The book is a half one part workbook, one part my story, one part encouragement to you to go. Hey, how do we begin to unpack that? We lay out the concept of the two truths. We lay out each story and have you walk through that of your own life. Rocky: We have you get to a place, you go now look for ones that are complementary. That doesn't mean they're good. It just means they match. Right. Rocky, you're too intense. Rocky tells himself, Rocky, you're too intense. That's a complementary story at that intersection. I need to identify my doubt, that is. I'm too much for people, the lie people will not love me if that's who I am, the truth, I am intense and it is good, right? And so the book is out as I process about seven or eight chapters where we walk through that that process. He let me lay out the concept. Here's what it looks like and then get to work. Start making your chart, fill out your story, find that out, finally find the truth. And then we kind of walk you with that through either email or text options we have that we ask you then of a chapter and they text me right now. Tell me what you just found out and then we're to make sure we follow with you to make sure that we can do that. And so the book killed out. Build conviction. You can get a copy. You can order one today. Rocky Garcia dot com. There's a link there or Iraqi Gaza dot com sketchbook and it should take you right to it. Order copy. And we'll we'll ship it out. There it is in editing slash printing right now. So they should ship sometime end of April. Joe: Cool. OK, so are you only going to have it on your side or do you think it will eventually be up on Amazon or somewhere else like that? Rocky: Yeah, yeah, so we'll see for now, it'll just be on our site, Joe: Ok. Rocky: One for it in full transparency, just for a traffic and final just to drive people to our site. I Joe: Mm hmm. Rocky: Go to a conference, they speak, hey, go get it. Go to our website and read everything else while you're there. And I think also just this is my first experience and writing a book I would have if you'd have told me I was going to write a book a year ago, I would have laughed at you. I'm a talker, not a writer. Come to find out, you can write books by talking. You just use dictation and talk and that pops up into a word. Documents. Beautiful. And so so we'll see, I think, as as more things come, you know, for those for those folks who have written books before I thought about it, you know, it's a very interesting process to publish self publish, go to the publisher and so on and so forth. And Joe: Yeah. Rocky: Right right now, Rakhi Gaza is not a name that any publishers like, hey, do we want you to write a book? So if that happens, I'm sure we'd go the Amazon route and put in there at some point. But for now, I just I want to help some folks and I think the best way to do that is to go to go get it at that place. So. Joe: Perfect. What's the best way for the audience to get in contact with you, what's your preferred method of communication? So you have Rocky Gaza dotcom, correct, Rocky: Yep, yep, Joe: As your Rocky: Yep, Joe: Website Rocky: So you could Joe: And Rocky: Yeah, Joe: Then. Rocky: You could check out Rajab's dot com for speaking, so I spent about a third of my time keynote speaking in workshops both for what I call external conferences meeting and individuals going to put on a conference for a group of people they can buy a ticket to and then internal conferences. So business and organizations hire me to come and speak to their staff. A third of my time is kind of spent in the team space working directly with teams and organizations in a smaller format, more intensive identity mapping for teams, basically, and then about a third of my time with individuals. So doing one on one coaching, we've got a 12 week program that folks can jump into. It includes a four hour identity mapping session. And then we meet once a week every week for 12 weeks to really help people get to that stage lifecycle. Hey, you're clear and ready to be handed off to kind of jump into that next arena. So, yeah, hit me up on Instagram, clubhouse, Facebook. There's not a lot of rocky ghazi's out there. And so I try to be the first to grab those names. So it's just at Rockie, Gaza, on every platform that you could want to find me on or that I would want to be on. I'm there not a tick talker, but Instagram, Facebook, LinkedIn and website, also clubhouse. You can catch me on any of those. Joe: Right. All right, man, well, I appreciate your time today, I appreciate going through this this exercise with you. I hope it was helpful to the audience and I love the work that you're doing. It speaks to me, as you can tell. I'm going through the process myself. And it was really it was an honor to have you here and to talk this through with you. I really appreciate your time. Rocky: Yeah, thank you so much, Jim, I appreciate it was great to connect on clubhouse. Thanks for having me on the show and I look forward to talking to you again. Joe: Yeah, my pleasure, man, you take care. OK. Rocky: Thank you so much.
I had an amazing discussion with Tony Whatley about working twice as hard as the next person, never giving up, building a business from scratch, selling his business for millions, working for a corporation and now his new life of helping entrepreneurs. Check out his book "Sidehustle Millionaire": https://amzn.to/3fXEwmd Also check out his Facebook group: https://www.facebook.com/365driven and his website at https://365driven.com/. This was a fascinating chat with someone who has really done it...created a business and sold it for millions. So many people act as if they've done it but rarely do you find someone who has and is willing to share their knowledge to help lift others up. Enjoy and thanks so much for listening!! Joe Tony Whatley CEO - 365Driven.com Author of: Sidehustle Millionaire Website: https://365driven.com/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/365driven/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/365driven 365Driven Faceook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/365driven/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/tonywhatley/ YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCrETiHfxlI0Igei04hd1KVQ Podcast Music By: Andy Galore, Album: "Out and About", Song: "Chicken & Scotch" 2014 Andy's Links: http://andygalore.com/ https://www.facebook.com/andygalorebass If you enjoy the podcast, would you please consider leaving a short review on Apple Podcasts/iTunes? It takes less than 60 seconds, and it really makes a difference in helping to convince hard-to-get guests. For show notes and past guests, please visit: https://joecostelloglobal.libsyn.com Subscribe, Rate & Review: I would love if you could subscribe to the podcast and leave an honest rating & review. This will encourage other people to listen and allow us to grow as a community. The bigger we get as a community, the bigger the impact we can have on the world. Sign up for Joe's email newsletter at: https://joecostelloglobal.com/#signup For transcripts of episodes, go to: https://joecostelloglobal.lybsyn.com Follow Joe: https://linktr.ee/joecostello Transcript Joe: All right, my guest is Tony Whatley. Tony, welcome to the podcast. Tony: Joe, good to connect and thank you for having me on the show, brother. Joe: Yeah, man, so you and I connected on Clubhouse and there is a tremendous amount of noise on the Clubhouse, as with any platform, once it takes off and you stuck out to me because you're not one of those people that are leaning against a rented Lamborghini or sitting in a hollow like a fuselage. So and when I listen to you talk in certain rooms on clubhouse, just something attracted me to wanting to connect more with you and learn about your story. So what I like to do with all my guests, as I like to go back, I think it's important for people that become successful like you, that the people that are listening to this and who will eventually watch the YouTube video of this a few days after I release this on the platform that they understand where you came from, because I think that's always really important to know that you just weren't handed all of these things. And this just with any anybody becoming an entrepreneur, it's not an easy journey. So can you kind of bring us forward to today, but tell us where you started? I know that you got into oil and you had a regular career, quote, regular giving air quotes for the podcast listeners. So if you could take us from the beginning, it would be awesome. Tony: Hey, thank you for the opportunity. So my life grew up lower middle class to hard, hardworking parents, blue collar careers. My mom was a cafeteria worker in the public schools for over 30 years, serving kids meals. She had a really strong heart. She loved everybody, didn't and didn't dislike anybody. Even some of the people I disliked, she was like she could find the love in everybody. Right. And my dad, Vietnam veteran U.S. Marines, and after the military, he worked in chemical refineries here in the UAE, an area the rest of his career. They're both retired now, doing well. And I just learned the value of hard work and having to learn to be grateful for what I had in the houses that I grew up in. Three houses specifically in Friendswood, Texas, is really the lowest income neighborhood in the entire city, which had affluence and also had lower middle class, lot more of the affluence. But, you know, fewer of us. And we would basically buy the crappiest house and the smallest house in the neighborhood and live in it while we flipped it for a few years, while we were restoring it, making it nicer. And eventually those small houses would become one of the nicer houses on the street. And then they would go by a little bit nicer, bigger house, because me and my sister, which we're growing just like the house sizes. And so I just thought that was a normal life. I saw that there was a affluence nearby. I could get on my bicycle and my skateboard and run around and look at these big houses that had a lot of windows on the front. Tony: I remember being a kid and I only had one window on the front of my first house. I grew up and it was the one that was a bay window on the living room. And I would watch my sister, who was a year and a half older, get on the bus every day, and I would wave to her just like my mom would be standing in the window. And that was always my view of the house, the first house I grew up in. And I just thought that every house just had one view. So I just thought that was normal. And I remember when I became old enough to go right around and leave the neighborhood and go see what was outside, I saw all these big houses with multiple windows. And I remember thinking to myself, I wonder what the view at that window looks like. I wonder what the view at that window looks like. And I could just envision myself running through this house and like looking through the windows and seeing if was a different view. And each one, as funny as thing is, as my wife is a realtor and sometimes I'll go do some showings with her and I'll we'll be at these large houses and I'll still look out every window. Even to this day. I'll still look out every window just to see what the view is. Joe: That's Tony: And Joe: Right. Tony: So I started to catch myself doing this. Like, why am I so fascinated by what's outside? Each one is like, oh, now I remember. Now I remember. Joe: Yeah. Tony: So yeah, a little bit about me Joe: Yeah, Tony: And. Joe: Yeah, so how did you get into so what did you did you go to college for some particular subject or degree or. Tony: I went to college for the pursuit of the six figure paycheck. That Joe: Let's Tony: Was that was the only reason Joe: Get. Tony: Because because I turned well, my first job was McDonald's at age 15. I worked there through high school. Then I was a busser at Olive Garden. And then I became a waiter there because I was good busser. And then I went to work at a steakhouse where I was another waiter. And then I became a manager of this brewery steakhouse and Clear Lake, Texas, and. I turned 18 and it really wasn't enough money to live on just just working at the restaurant, so I actually started working in construction just like my dad and and working in Texas and fire retardant clothing with a hard hat and 95 degree temperatures. It only took me a few summers of realizing that that's not where I wanted to be. I saw these these men with collared shirts walking into air conditioned rooms on the same facility. I was like, well, what do they do? All their engineers like? Well, man, I need to figure out how to work in the air conditioning. Yes. So I just said, hey, if you've got to go get a six figure career, that's what we tell you. You could be a doctor, a lawyer or an engineer. Well, I happen to love cars. So I said, well, maybe there's something in engineering that I can learn about cars and I can maybe go get that six figure paychecks. I became a mechanical engineer and I worked full time during that whole ordeal. I paid for school myself and actually the first person and both sides of my family to go to a university. My dad was the first one in his family to to move to a house that didn't have wheels attached to it. And so it was the first one to go to university. So I really applaud him for not going back to his hometown after he got out of the military and just decided, like, I don't want to grow up there. I don't want my kids Joe: At. Tony: To grow up there. We're moving somewhere else. So he went where the work was and he facilitated that change. And I felt like it was my obligation to do, you know, a little bit better for him, for the work that they put in. Isn't that what we all should be striving to is trying to do a little bit more than our parents Joe: Yeah, Tony: Who struggled Joe: Absolutely. Tony: To put us in that situation? And so, you know, me getting that degree took me seven years. I was I was going to school at night time, usually between six and 10 p.m. and sleep deprived and broke and stressed out and actually had more gray hair in college than I do now. Is is strange and really a sleep and stress. You know, it really does has a lot of physiological, you know, turmoil on us. And my relationship struggled back things I just didn't have any time to dedicate to those kind of things. But, you know, I never changed majors. I never quit. I did drop some classes along the way because I struggled and my grades were suffering at the point said I didn't quit. And that was a testament to me is like, I'm going to see this through because I actually had friends that joined mechanical engineering program. Honestly, even when they tell you that when you start freshman year of school, they said only 20 percent of you are going to graduate. And then they said, OK, well, how many of you have a girlfriend or boyfriend or you're married and raise your hand? Remember that orientation freshman year? And I said, OK, well, only 10 percent of you will graduate. And they said, how many of you are working full time job to do this? And I raise my hand again, I said, well, only 10 percent of you will graduate. So I was like out of a 20 percent pool, 10 percent of that and 10 percent had really bad odds. But you Joe: At. Tony: Know what? I'm pretty defiant. And I said, you know, I'm going to prove them wrong. I'm going to be the one that defeats the odds. And upon graduating, it was only 12 people in my class that had graduated that that semester. Joe: Wow, that's Tony: And Joe: Crazy. Tony: I was the only one that was working full time. So I really did defeat the odds. And I thought that I wanted to go into automotive career. But automotive in Detroit just didn't pay nearly as much as oil and gas in my hometown of Houston. So I decided to just take the paychecks in Houston. And that's why I started businesses in the automotive performance arena, because I still wanted to satisfy that itch. Joe: Right. So you ended up taking a full time job in the oil and gas world. What was that job? Tony: Earliest was a project engineer role working for a manufacturing facility, we built subsea equipment and pay pay back then was probably 45000 base salary, you know, entry level at that time. So for context, this was around 1997, 1998, and I was getting home at four thirty in the afternoon, like most people with a 40 hour job. We started really early in the morning, but I get home at four thirty and I felt like. After going through seven years of hustle and grind and working three jobs, I was still a waiter working construction as a mechanic and said this feels like a part time job. So here I am with my big boy salary and my big boy degree feeling like, OK, I guess I'm on my journey. I'm on my early journey to go chase the American dream. And I've done it. And and I was just bored. I was Joe: Yeah. Tony: Bored and I would be really honest with myself. I'd look at my small apartment and, you know, I bought myself a nicer car, bought a Pontiac Trans Am when I graduated. So that that was like my reward to myself. Joe: Uh. Tony: And I felt like this is this isn't enough. This is not enough. And I got a lot of energy. I got a lot of time. So I actually went back and waited tables at the restaurant that I was a manager of because I had promoted one of my friends to be the manager when I left. And I called him up and say, hey, man, do you think I could just come pick up shifts and bartending and waiting? He's like, hell, yeah, dude, you're awesome. Like, come back any time. I don't even need to put you on the schedule to come pick up one. And so for me that meant seven nights a week. I just I put the apron on and people lot of the people that were still working there knew who I was. And I graduated and that's why I left. And to go, why are you back? And it's like because I'm not where I want to be. Like, I can sit home and sit on the couch and watch TV or I can come back and make an extra 150 bucks a night. Tony: So I chose to go suck up my pride and go do that. You know, his thing is I've never I've never felt shame for doing what was necessary to get what I needed to do. And I think a lot of times people put ego or self-importance above what they need to do. And, you know, I was fine if I was cleaning the bathrooms at McDonalds, I did it the best I could find, mopping floors. That is the best I could. And even as a kid, I go back and some of my long term friends like you just never complained. You just did what was required. Like football coaches would tell you something. You just do it. I've never been the complainer because I watched my parents work so hard and we literally were living inside of a flip house the entire time, and I just know that blood, sweat and tears is not just some a cliche phrase. And I learned from my dad like, hey, you know, he's a combat vet. Like, you should see what I had to do when I was 18, son, Joe: Right. Tony: You know, like like suck it up, Joe: Yep. Tony: Go do the work. Don't complain. You have it better than a lot of people in this world. And that's the mentality I adopted as a kid. And I grew into a young adult and I still carry that with me today. Joe: So you're at this job, you're doing part time at the restaurant. And when do you decide and is the first side hustle that you start? Is it is it less one tech? Is that what it was? Tony: Now, actually, my first side hustle. It's going to get really nerdy, but I learned how to build electronic circuits with resistors, a little bread boards and soldering, and I was kind of geeking out on this and I learned how to design a device that you could plug into an engine harness on a on a Camaro or a Corvette or a TransAm that would fool the NOx sensors and give you about 10 horsepower. So it basically would give it a little bit more ignition time. And it was a plug and play thing. And I knew how to design it and I built it. And so I would go to RadioShack back when those were everywhere, Joe: Yeah. Tony: Buy all the resistors and I would buy these little circuit boards and little boxes and the wiring and I would buy the GM harnesses from the parts counter at the local Chevy dealership. And I get home and I would bust out my little kit and I would solder things and it would take me about take me about an hour to build each one of these units. And I had about thirty dollars in parts. I can sell over 75 bucks. And so it didn't scale very well, obviously, because there was only a limited market, you know, I mean, hundreds of people that maybe wanted to buy that. And I can only build two or three a night without running at a time. And so that was my first online business. I actually built a little one page landing page is Joe: Mm Tony: What we Joe: Hmm. Tony: Call it now. But it was actually that's all my capability was back then. Joe: Yeah. Tony: And I sold I mean, I could sell six or seven a week and it was like good beer, money or aside, money was better than waiting tables, to be honest, because I could still make the same amount of time, but I could be at home. So that allowed me to leave the restaurants. And then I started building Web pages. I taught myself how to code HTML about really simple Web pages and do graphic design with Photoshop and take some good photos and build Web pages. Because I started that. A lot of people out there, a lot of automotive performance shops and manufacturers didn't have Internet presence at that time because they didn't have a website. So it's like, well, shit, I could trade my skills for car parts. So it's like a barter system is like Joe: Right, Tony: I can get free car parts Joe: Right. Tony: Of a website. And that funded my car and my racing hobby. Right. And so I got known for building these little simple one to three page websites, which I would have to basically layout on Photoshop visually first and then slice them and make the little buttons and like re rebuild those slices into like what looked like a Web page on the. There is a whole lot harder than it is nowadays and I probably got 100 of those websites over a period of two years. And so I got known as the guy that could build car stuff websites and I would get paid or I would trade car parts. And I was hanging out on other communities at the time and they weren't being managed very well. You know, they were they're not paying their server bills. Things were getting crashed. And sometimes all the content we create would be gone. You know, after you built all this, how to articles and you're writing all the stuff that's free of user generated content. And and finally we approached the owner of that Web site and we said, hey, we see you've got advertisers. We know how much you charge because some of my friends, advertisers have built their websites like, why aren't you paying your server bill? It's like it's like three hundred dollars a month, like what's going on. And rather than take that as constructive feedback from some of his best supporters, like a group of us, he said, well, if you guys think you can do a better job, go start your own. Joe: Mm hmm. Tony: And it never even was a thought in my mind until he said that he challenged me again, like you don't challenge me. I'm the kind of person if you challenge me, I'm going to go do it. I'm going to prove you wrong. And so I said, well, man, I could build websites and I don't know much about servers, but I'm pretty sure I can figure out how to load some software on there into a server. That's pretty easy. If I could read a how to. And so that's what we did is like, you know, two of us started a website that was at least one tech. That was November 2001. So 20 years from now and this year. And we just started as a hobby. Dude, it's like, you know, the Set-aside Kim, it's not reliable. Let's just go start our own place to hang out. And my partner, John and I, we just thought, you know, if we can make 500 dollars a month, which is the Karno to the Trans Am I had and the Karno to the Camaro SS that he had. So that would be pretty cool to be like we would have a free car just to hang out and a place to talk about cars. And I've got a big boy job and a salary and you've got your own too. And we don't need this and it's just something we want to have fun with. And I like to illustrate that because, you know, you know, shocker. Tony: Yeah. That thing went on to earn hundreds of thousands of dollars a year in profit. And we sold it for millions in 2007, but was never intended to make millions of dollars. You know, a lot of people are like, oh, did you were you a visionary? And could you stop this? And it's like, no, we just wanted to make five hundred dollars a month. But the main difference, why we became the number one in the category and why we really dominated that entire automotive form seemy we we set so many bars and taught those other forums and the BMW sectors and the the Porsche sectors, we taught them how to monetize the audience. We, we taught them how to build a strong community and attract advertising revenue. So I had clients like Chevrolet and Cadillac and Goodyear and big name brands that were paying me to advertise on my website. So the main difference is that we treated it like a business. What started as a hobby, we started seeing real dollars come in and within within six months we're making 10000 dollars profit a month and we're like, whoa, I think we need to go get one of those. What are they called an LLC or I think we need to go do that. And I think we may need to create a separate bank account instead of just paying ourselves Joe: Mm Tony: Like in Joe: Hmm. Tony: Our personal account, like. So I love to share that because I want people understand that you don't have to have all the answers. You don't have to be the best entrepreneur ever. You don't have to overdose on YouTube and podcasts and reading books and attending seminars. You've got to just start you just Joe: Yeah. Tony: Got to start and you're going to improve with time. Joe: Yeah, so the important things I want to touch upon about this before we leave the subject about Ellis one tech is how did you get the advertisers? Did you actually one of you go out as a salesperson, whether it was phone calls or in person, or did they actually care about you and come to you and say, hey, we heard about your site, we want to advertise. Tony: And this is a little bit going back to we hear about personal branding all the time, right? Nowadays, it's Joe: You Tony: Like Joe: Know. Tony: The buzz, personal branding. You've got to build a personal brand. Well, I was already doing that, and so was he, because we were active contributors to an existing community. So to put that in today's context, we have Facebook groups, you've got online communities. Go join those communities and actually be a contributing, valuable member. That's always helping people by answering their questions and giving encouragement and giving advice and sharing your resources and sharing your network. And then you start to build that personal brand of being someone that creates value rather than asking for all the stuff. And whenever it comes time for you to go launch your own community or write a book or launch a podcast or whatever, that's your side of the fence. Guess what? You're going to have a really strong group of supporters of, you know what, this person I like them because they're always helping and they've always never asked me for anything. So here's the thing they're finally asking me for. I'm going to go support that. And that's the way it worked. And I didn't understand that. It's just my nature to be that person. I'm the person that I follow on social media or a forum or anything that I'm spending time on. If I see somebody ask a question that I know the answer to, I'm not going to be. The person goes, well, you know what? Somebody else can answer that because I don't have time or I'm just super important. And Joe: Mm hmm. Tony: Oh, that's too trivial of a question for me to answer. I'll let some beginner answer that one for them. Know, guys, if I'm scrolling and I actually see someone that needs help, I respond. If I have the time, I respond and and it takes me a few seconds. But those few seconds of me investing into that pay dividends. If there's a few seconds here, a few seconds or a few seconds there, and people start to see because what you don't understand is on a social community, especially on the Internet, is that thousand people will see that response over a period of time. Let's say you're in a Facebook group and somebody asks a really good question and you happen to have the answer, even if you think it's trivial or a beginner. But you answer it, thousands of people will see that exchange of information. They will see who asked the question, they will see who answered the question. And if they start to see this pattern showing up over and over, hey, Tony is always helping people. He's always answering questions. You don't think that's a building you some kind of a personal brand capital that you'll be able to use later on if needed, because you may never deploy that, but if needed, it's going to be there for you. So, you know, that was how we built the advertisers because we were helping the manufacturers on other sites by answering some of the technical questions. Tony: I would buy those parts. I would install those parts. I knew how to. I would give the good and the bad of it and do a little review of those things. And we just answered questions on Web sites. And when it came time to go launch our own website, we were such contributors that they're like, you know, we're going to go see what they're doing, what's what's that's about. And we'd already established relationships with people who are willing to advertise that we actually had ten advertisers in the first week. And I was not the cold caller. My partner, John, he owned a recruiting, a technical recruiting agency, and he loved to call people on the phone. I was like, that is not me. I will build the websites. I will create the graphics, I will set up the servers. I will run things at a technical level like an engineer. And I'm a project manager by trade. By that point is like, oh, I'll plan things out and execute. And he was the one I was going to make the calls. I was OK emailing, but I still even to this day, I don't like making cold calls. And I don't I just don't. Joe: All right, so the timeline now is you're doing your day job project, managing in the oil and gas arena, and you have this website with your friend and you are selling advertising, you're building. And it's basically if it if it looked the way it did, then that it does now. It's literally a forum that you guys built. But Tony: Yes. Joe: Now it's it's probably expanded. Where I see it has the marketplace and it has all these other pieces of it that's helping to build that whole infrastructure on that site. Tony: Yeah, definitely, we we had access to all the activity logs of the forms that we created so we could see the response of the individual categories that we put in the community and the classified section. We were actually one of the first ones to do a class of five sections in a forum and an automotive forum, especially because we realized that hotrods have used parts to sell and they always want to upgrade or they're looking for a better this and that. So we put this classified in there so people can list their used parts, not new parts, because if they want to sell new parts, they need to be an advertiser. But the used parts, we're fine. And we saw that that really increased the the longevity of their visits by about 40 percent. And just give you guys a context of how busy this site was. On average, we had about 100000 unique visitors per day. Joe: Same. Tony: So. So if you're thinking about a speed shop or a car dealership or anything like that, imagine with a hundred thousand people walking through your front door every single day and spending an average of about 20 minutes, looks like that's how we were able to generate the advertising revenue because we had the data logs, we had the Google analytics and we said, hey, what are you guys spending on magazines and television ads? And they go, We're spending 5000 for a half page ad. And this automotive magazine, OK, cool that the automotive magazine has a circulation of about 250 copp, 250000 copies per month. We see that in two and a half days. And we're going to charge you 10 percent of what they charge. And they were like, whoa, like this is a no brainer. And said, even better, you don't have to give us content 30 days in advance ahead of publication because there's that waiting period for publishers to print magazines Joe: Yeah. Tony: And they have to have the content editors and make it all look pretty and put it all in the pages and number of the pages. And I said, so if you wanted to do and unveil of a product, you could actually show up that day and your representatives could log in with their account and post a video or something that they've created that day. And you could get real time feedback from the people who see it and give you questions and maybe even pull out their credit card. So, you know, forums and things like the things I created, you know, we were really were the the commercial demise of magazines in that regard. And we've seen the magazines, the publications struggle. But here's the thing. As much as I love magazines and I was a contributing editor for most of the automotive magazines for over a decade, what they failed to do was adapt. They had the brand name, they had the readership, but they were like, you know, we are super important and we're the media and we are magazines and nobody's ever going to replace magazines. And we're just super awesome in that forum stuff. That's just a waste of time Internet fad. And really, this is the kind of conversations that we would have with these publishers, say, hey, we're trying to partner up with you. How about we build out your forum and you've got the audience base? You could start mentioning it in your magazines and, you know, get them to drive to the forum and we can help you monetize that. And they're like, oh, no, we're not interested in that. Our business model is public catering and our ad rates are much higher than yours. So we make a lot more revenue than you and guys like me put them out of business. Guys like me sold my brands for millions of dollars when they went bankrupt. So that's a good lesson and adaptability and understand that you have to go where technology's telling you to go. Joe: And same with the newspapers, right? They didn't move Tony: Oh, Joe: Quick Tony: Yeah. Joe: Enough. Same thing. Yeah, Tony: They have the audience Joe: I Tony: And Joe: Know. Tony: They don't use it. Joe: It's crazy. Tony: The Joe: Ok, Tony: Men had it. Joe: So I don't want to harp on this subject too long, but I want to make sure that the audience understands the the exit route and how that happened out of this. And so still, at this point, you still have a dual career, right? You're still working and you still have this website. It wasn't like this Web site took off so much that you decided that, OK, I'm not doing the day job anymore. Tony: Now, that's one of the things people ask me is why didn't you quit your job? You know, when we were really the last two years that we're on this website, we're making about hundred thousand a year profit and. People are like, well, why don't you quit because at that point, my job was probably making 150, 175 range and I said, well, I also work offshore. I did a lot of offshore construction. So sometimes I was gone 28 days, sometimes with Internet, sometimes without. And so me being a project manager and engineer, I was very well adept at writing processes and procedures and systems that other people could follow. That's what I did for a career. And I said, I don't need to fire myself. So how can I create processes and systems to be able to hand these to other people that can do these in my absence? Because I don't can't guarantee if I'm going to be there or not. And so that's what I did, is we started to build a team at about 75 people on the team and we paid them in perks and free car parts and sponsorships and sometimes, you know, ten, ninety nine dollars just to do certain tasks. And that's what I did, is I fired myself. And what that did is allowed me to use my website as a consumer now. So I get to be at the same ground level and see what the problems were and what we could improve on and how we can add more features to attract more eyeballs and more time on screen. Tony: And a lot of the things that Facebook and Instagram do nowadays, we were doing a long time ago. We just had to do it manually versus, you know, with A.I. So that's what we do, is we try to stay focused on how can we increase engagement, how to increase eyeballs, how to increase time on screen, and what was the hot topics and what are the things that we can do to create content that was going to keep them coming back as the value proposition that needed exist for them to be entertained or get some information. And there's a reason my website is still existing and I sold it. And still it is still the number one General Motors website to this day. It's been 20 years. But the thing is that I didn't quit the job because I didn't need to. And it goes back to that scarcity mindset that I grew up with, that if I can work the career and make, you know, 150000 plus like, why would I quit that? Because, one, we were the top of the market share. We're number one. And they're always trying to people trying to take us down or literally hundreds of copies of our website, always trying to take us down. But we are way ahead of these people. Right. And so I had the market share me working one hour a day versus eight hours. There was not going to ATX my revenue. It wasn't going to increase revenue at all. I had the market share. Joe: Mm hmm. Tony: So the hours versus multiplication just wasn't there. Right. I was realistic about that. I could have been lazy and played PlayStation at that time or Xbox 360 and built cars and done nothing but. But why would I do that? Is like in I wasn't where I wanted to be at the time, so I was OK stacking money, working to career that also I had to struggle to get that engineering degree. And for a long time I felt like I didn't want to waste that effort. You know, I built it. I spent this time and investment and the hardship I explained earlier and I said, you know what? I don't want to waste my degree. I was pursuing the corporate executive path in oil and gas eventually. So I was very good at my career and I was very good at entrepreneurship at the same time. And I always find that was fascinating because I I saw my entrepreneur friends on one side of the fence and I saw my employee friends on the other side of the fence. And the mindsets are completely different between the two. And I would try to cross over. So I was what you would call an intrapreneur, someone who's an entrepreneur that works within a corporation to try to always enhance, improve, evolve. And I was always met with resistance, especially the larger the company names game. I was working for major oil companies in my later career. I mean, I left in 2015 and it was always like, hey, if it isn't broke, don't fix it. You know, this is the way we've always done it. Like all these things that Joe: Mm Tony: Make Joe: Hmm. Tony: Corporations collapse. Joe: Same old thing, yeah. Tony: Same thing over and over and over. And it drove me nuts. And but yeah, that's that's why I never quit, man. I was good at doing both. Joe: Ok, so how did you how did the approach happen to buy the website? Tony: And that's a funny one, because at the time, very few people understood the amount of volume and dollars that was coming through a business model like that, because they just thought, oh, it's a cool car side. People are hanging around and making, you know, talking about cars. They're probably making, you know, 50000 a year doing this. You know that that's probably what they're thinking. Joe: And Tony: Nobody Joe: I have Tony: Knew. Joe: To I have to make the point that when you did this, it was hard to do what you did. It was not the drag and drop and all of Tony: Uh. Joe: That stuff. It was not easy because I grew up I was telling a story the other day. I used to teach companies how to use an Internet browser like Tony: Oh, yeah, Joe: I Tony: You Joe: If Tony: Know Joe: I'm old Tony: You Joe: Enough Tony: Know, Joe: That Tony: We're from Joe: The Tony: The same era. Joe: Well, I'm probably older than you. But anyhow, you you did this at a really hard time. And when you're talking about the you know, the construction of the site and then on top of it being smart enough to keep all of the logs and Google analytics, I mean, it's hard to use today. I can't even imagine what it was like when you were trying to pull the data out when you did it. So I just wanted to make that point. I didn't mean to interrupt you, but I think people need to understand Tony: Now. Joe: That this you have to put it into the context of when it happened. And it was not easy at the time that you did it. Tony: Yeah, yeah. For context, I sold the website in 2007 and I was 34 and multimillionaire and Facebook and Instagram came out two years later. Joe: There you go. Tony: See, so everything that you see now, easy, like I could just do a video and Joe: The. Tony: I could do targeted ads and I can find all these people like we didn't have that we had we had to rely on joint ventures with media and racing events and person type events to be able to to really build the snowball of momentum. Joe: Mm hmm. Tony: There was no like buying targeted ads. And it's super easy nowadays. Like, really, there's the excuses nowadays for entrepreneurs to not have success is like it just makes me laugh. It's like, come on, it's never been easier. The information has never been easier to find. All the stuff is being shared nowadays, which we had to go learn ourselves the hard way. And, you know, so the approach going back to the question of the approach. So it wasn't uncommon for people to casually email us saying, hey, you think about selling your website and. We never really thought about it, to be honest, because we're doing pretty well. We didn't need to sell it and we were really taking a lot of the profits, rolling it back in the company to make it grow because we had careers. And so they would always just just out of curiosity, once someone was, hey, would you like to sell your website? We always would entertain the question. We would say, well, what do you think it's worth? Because we're curious ourselves. Like we Joe: All Tony: Didn't know anything about Joe: Right. Tony: Valuation. Joe: All right. Tony: Like, what do you think it's worth? Like what's your offer? And most of it would be like, you know, I was thinking like Dr. Evil. We know when he talked about the one million dollars like this and it was like it. Going to go watch that movie if you haven't. You know what I'm talking about, but they'll be like, how about a hundred thousand dollars? Joe: Right. Tony: Thinking like, man, we sold advertising packages for bigger than that, you know, like, do you want to buy an ad package or do you want to buy the website? Joe: Right. Tony: You know, and and it just shows you that they had no clue. And that probably happened a dozen times over a period of quarters. And we just kind of laughed about it like they don't know. And we're not going to tell them what we're making because it's just they just have no clue. And and this is one company came in and they their eventual buyers were a little bit different in their approach. And they said, hey, we're looking at acquiring the top level forums and each brand marquee. We've already bought this one, this one, this one and this one. And all of those brands we were well recognized with, like it was the best BMW side, the best Volkswagen site, like top level names on par with the one I'd built for General Motors. I was like, whoa, if those people sold, then maybe there's some there's something to this one. Right. Joe: Mm hmm. Tony: I remember having this conversation with John. And as a man, we're kind of getting long in the tooth on this. I want to go build on some different projects. I want to do something different. And, you know, what do you think? And he's like, we're both on board. Like, you know, if they make us this offer and we came up with a number. Right. And I said, if they come up to this and we can negotiate it, I think we both agree that will sell as I call. So we responded back and said we'd entertain this offer. You know, what kind of questions would you like answered? And they actually asked if they could put their Google Analytics pixel into our website so they could see for themselves if we're full of shit or not. I said, OK, no problems. I'll put it in there to help them put it in there. And then about two weeks later, they called back and they said, we're at it, have a discussion with you guys about the moving forward. And I said, OK, cool. And so their initial offer was double our number that we had come up with in our mind. Joe: Oh, my gosh. Tony: And we're like, oh. So we had to contain our excitement, first of all. And act like, oh, OK, well, we'll consider Joe: Right. Tony: That we're going to have a talk about that and we'll get back to you. And the first thing I said is like, John, we need a lawyer, we need it. We need to get an attorney. That's a good with M&A and we need to have some conversations with him on these early contracts, negotiation things. And of course, luckily, he had a good friend of his that specialize that in Chicago. And we got on the phone we talked a couple of times, went through some details of the preliminary offer. And he's like, so you're going to counter right? Or like, well, should we? And he's like, yeah, there are first offers, always the lowest Joe: Mm Tony: Offer, Joe: Hmm. Tony: Like, what do you want to make? And so we said, well, what about this? No, it's like worst they can say is no. And so we put that back out to them and they said, sounds good to us. And Joe: Wow. Tony: We're like, damn it, maybe we should ask Joe: All Tony: For some Joe: Right. Tony: More. So of course, we're not going to be greedy because it was already double our number in our mind. And we sold them and then they said yes, and we're so cool. We went down that road and it was about a better one year due diligence phase of going through all the accounting and understanding, all the systems and processes in place and negotiating the contract and the details. And that was a really, I would say, a semi stressful situation, Joe: Yeah, Tony: Because Joe: I can imagine. Tony: Even though that the millions of dollars is looking in your mind, you don't really think it's real. Actually, because I actually interviewed somebody on my show yesterday. It sold a nine figure exit and he and I had very similar, even though he was a whole different range of the money. I made very similar psychological things going through your mind because it seems fake until you see it in your actual bank account. Joe: Yep. Tony: And even when you initially see it in your bank account, it still feels a little fake until you, like, spend it a little bit, you're like it's real, OK, they're not going to call me back and say, oh, we made a mistake. We need to have our money back. Right. Joe: All right. Tony: So does these weird things that we go through the exit companies and only one percent of businesses actually sell. And to hear this kind of experience is very rare. But I wanted to be really transparent and show people that because it's a it's very intrusive to go through that your books better be damn right. If you think you can lie about things that your company is doing or not doing, you're going to get discovered during that because lawyers get involved and they're digging through all kinds of stuff. I mean, they're literally looking for ways to devalue your company and you're looking for ways to add value to your company during that one year process. So you just got to be transparent about things and keep your books in order. That's the main thing. And learn how to build valuation in your companies. And it just turns out we were just doing everything right. We had the recurring revenue business model. We had presold ads. We were cash flow positive. We had proven database of, you know, information of users and their emails and our names, which increased valuation based on customer acquisition cost. It would cost them to go find those people in the same market. So we had a lot of things that were checking the boxes. And it was also a tech platform with a really strong brand, which also increased valuation. So we just did everything the right way. And the reason we did that is because we just did things like business. Again, it wasn't a hobby to us. Joe: Yep, so you get to the final stage, it gets sold, they buy it, you sell it, you're still working. How long did you stay at your job once you exited this company? Tony: Another eight more. Joe: Eight more years. Tony: Eight more years. Joe: Wow, Tony: Yeah, Joe: That was Tony: I Joe: Not the Tony: Actually Joe: Answer Tony: Had Joe: I expected. Tony: I had spin offs, I had verticals that I created from that acquisition, I had a retail company selling wheels for cars because, one, we didn't have an advertiser that was selling wheels. And I was referring a lot of business out the door. And I said, you meant I could just do the buying and get another LLC and create my own wheel company and sell the wheels. And, you know, that became a seven figure business on its own. And when the website came up for sale, I said, do you guys want the retail side? Or like, oh, now we just want the data. We want the assets. We don't want anything to do with retail. They're a marketing house. Joe: Yes. Tony: I was like, so I could just create another LLC and keep this business to myself. And that's and so I did. So I still had a seven figure business even after that. That was part time that I enjoyed that kept me in the industry, kept me relevant, kept me engaged in cars. And so but I was also in that pursuit of becoming an executive with an oil and gas. That was my my goal. And I was really good at navigating that. And I made it towards making about 250000 a year in salary. And and near the end of that, I started to realize that the oil industry just doesn't treat people as good as they should. And I started to have to be that person that had to make tough decisions on employing certain people. And even though they were high performers and I got to see a lot of shady things in H.R., the things that are unwritten that we always hear about, like ageism and like cutting people before their pension fully Joe: Oh, Tony: Hits Joe: Man. Tony: Because, you know, it's a it's a it's a it's a financial decision. It's not personal. And I get to see this multiple times. And it started to impact me. And it's like, you know, I don't want to support another industry that does not support people, that we're we're basically disposable. And when I was young and disposable and making less money, it was very easy to find me a replacement job because I was it was inexpensive and unexperienced as I started to make, you know, multiple six figures. And in my 40s, if I were getting laid off, it was typically a six to eight month sitting on the bench waiting for the next bus to come around type scenario. And a lot of times I was having to fire myself and put people in my my desk that was ten years younger than me and 100000. I was less income than made just to keep the bench warm. For me to return at the market turned around. I was like, I don't like being in this situation. And so, you know, I took a near-death experience for me, racing cars to finally realize, like, I don't want to go back to that and I need to go create more impact in the world. And that's what I did, is I decided I need to go teach people what I have passions for. And one was cars, which I built a lot of success in cars. The other thing has always been entrepreneurship. And so I said, OK, that's how I'm going to best impact this world, is teach people business and confidence around being an entrepreneur. And that's what I've been doing since 2017. It took me two years, even after leaving my job, to think about what I really wanted to do. You know, was it was it a nonprofit, wasn't a philanthropy? What is it that I wanted to do? And for me, I just love to be a teacher, so that's why I do what I do now. Joe: So do you. I've thought about this question a lot in regards to you, if this if the site didn't do what it did and you didn't sell it and make that kind of money. Have you ever thought about where you would be today? Tony: Yeah, I would still be working in the oil and gas industry for sure. Joe: So Tony: For sure. Joe: With viewers, listeners and viewers that will hear this. What would you say to them if they were to say, well, he I mean, you did the work, it wasn't like you got lucky, but you got lucky in the sense that someone wanted to buy it. Right. I mean, and and Tony: Yeah, it wasn't for sale, Joe: Right. Tony: So you're right. Joe: So someone saying, well, what's the chances of that happening to me? Or how do I if that doesn't happen, then I do have to just continue on the path that I'm on. So what would you say to them about not getting a lucky break like that? How do you create that break for yourself to to then become this entrepreneur and service the world and do good things? Tony: I mean, honestly. My book, Side Hustle Millionaire, teaches people how to take the ideas for businesses and create reality out of those, because I was always ask, hey, what do you think about this business idea and what do you think about this? And the thing is that too many people take pride in having ideas. They think that there's their super smart. They think they're genius because they have this idea. And, you know, you and I both know that thousands of people die every single day with brilliant ideas and take them to the grave that were never materialized. And so ideas really aren't worth anything until you take any actions and see some results from those. So don't give yourself too much credit if you're listening to this or watching this, if you've got an idea, unless you try it and it's OK to fail, sometimes failing is actually the best lessons. But for people who are employed when you're all your bills are paid, you need to start thinking about what the number is and the number is what is the bare necessities. You need to be able to sustain your lifestyle or even downgrade your lifestyle. Tony: Let's be honest, because a lot of times people live above their means. What is the number? And I'm thinking a dollar number. What is the actual number like? Take your rent or your mortgage, your car, note your insurance, your food, your utilities, and put them on a spreadsheet and go, this is the number. And if it's 2000 or 3000 or 10000, whatever that number is, you need to have that number in your mind. Because once you start to make a profit in your side business that meets or exceeds that number, you need to really force yourself into a decision moment. Like you need to know that number is so important to know that number, because a lot of times we find that side hustlers and people that do things on the side will exceed that number, but never force themselves into decision mode. Because the question that you have to have in this decision is, should I just drop my career and go full time with this? And I have two reasons to do that. Right. Like you heard me give examples of why I didn't leave because it wouldn't have increased my income Joe: At. Tony: Like I was the number one in the category. I had all the market share. The extra hours would not have translated to extra dollars. It made no sense for me to leave. Now, if you do have a company and you realize that, hey, if I can contribute eight extra hours, maybe nine hours, if you have a commute to go to work, if I can commit nine extra hours a day to this business, what are the numbers look like? Does it scale? Does it make a higher profit? Because I'm already at the number I could actually leave right now. I actually have a parachute on my back that I could deploy that it's going to replace my salary already. So why am I staying here? And if the answer is like, yeah, extra hours will increase the business, it will also increase your freedom and your confidence. And most people really don't understand the confidence that entrepreneurship brings because I've never experienced that. There's something beautiful about commuting to your coffeemaker and walking to your office and you're in your own house, in your pajamas Joe: Aymen. Tony: And and waking up like you fire up the email, you go, Oh, I made three thousand dollars last night while I was asleep. I mean, it just sounds so unrealistic. But the reality is, is realistic realistically, when you start to surround yourself with people who are doing it and who could teach you how to do that, your eyes just start to open up and you go, wow, I remember thinking, eighty five dollars an hour at work was like a lot of money because that's close to two hundred thousand dollars salary. You know, I remember negotiating like they wanted to give me eighty, eighty dollars an hour and I was like, I want nineteen. OK, how about we meet in the middle eighty five. I mean I was at 180, 200 range. If you do the if you do the math. And the thing is, is there's this perception that multiple six figures is a lot of money and corporate and it is because I get it, the average income in the United States is 67000 a year. Some people will never make 100000 hours. It's sad to me because I can make that in a weekend now. Tony: And had you asked me twenty years ago if that was possible with a laugh, it's like there's no way you can make a hundred thousand dollars in a week. And that just sounds stupid, like you're dreaming. You get rich quick, you join some kind of network marketing or whatever, like it's bullcrap, Tony. But now I've done it a couple of times, like why did I ever have these limitations on income and why did that exist? And you start to think about where that comes from. It's because of your supervisors, from your parents is from your teacher, your professors. They're telling you what you they think you're worth based on what the market will bear. Oh, you're a mechanical engineer. Well, you can make one hundred fifty thousand dollars if you work twenty years. So, OK, so your self-worth becomes well, I can make one hundred and fifty thousand dollars by the time I'm sixty, and maybe they'll give a bonus to me and my last five years as an attaboy and I'll get a Rolex. And Joe: Right. Tony: Why the hell we give Rolex is to people that are retiring. Like what do they need to be on time anymore. Joe: Exactly. Tony: Like thank you. What, why don't you give me the Rolex when I'm twenty, so I'm always on time. Right. So a lot of weird things. They were created in these boundaries and and so people tend to define their self-worth based on a limitation of their salary. Their profession, which is really sad, is really sad. Joe: Yeah. Tony: And none of these limitations exist in reality. It's that there's no such thing as a limitation. And when you start to hang around people that think like I do, you're going to challenge everything you believe. And it's going to be really hard to to unwind a lot of the things that were were screwed up with. But it's crazy. The reality of. It really exists. Joe: Yeah, and this is why I do my podcast and I openly admit it to people, is it's because it's a selfish endeavor for me to be able to hang out with people like you and just virtually rub elbows. And at some point, hopefully we meet in person. But that's the goal, is to change the mindset. I watched my father just work himself to death. He literally was. I forget if it was two weeks away from retiring and had a stroke Tony: Oh, Joe: And Tony: Man. Joe: Was paralyzed on his right side. I watched him work harder than any man I ever watched. And I just I don't want to see that. I don't want to experience that. So I appreciate that. So you jumped ahead on me, which is great, because I want to know. So here's twenty seventeen. Your you decide that you're going to do you know, you're Tony: The Joe: Going Tony: Coaching Joe: To do Tony: And the Joe: The Tony: The Joe: Coaching. Tony: Community building, yeah. Joe: So when did you decide to write Side Hustle a Millionaire. When did you decide that. Well I have to write a book on this because that's a big endeavor. I everybody I hear that has written a book says it's probably one of the hardest things I ever had to do. Tony: You know, the funny thing about writing the book. Side Hustle Millionaire was a idea in my mind five years before I actually wrote it. Five years, because I knew even because I was around 40 at that time and I was like, you know, I need to do something that helps more people, you know, before the Internet flex on Instagram, I was the one that would post driveway photos with 10 cars and things like that, because, one, I had some insecurity issues and self validation things that I had to work through. And I didn't ever feel like I belong with the rich people. And I had to prove that I belong with them and a whole lot of weird things that we grow up through. But besides, the point is that as I wanted to start teaching people how I got those cars, because the only people that were benefiting from that knowledge were my friends and like people I worked with people within my close proximity because one, I didn't like being on camera. I didn't like being on stage. I didn't like my recorded voice. And I had a lot of insecurities around that, too. And I became a highly successful kind of in the background, and I was fine with that. So anytime people were like, oh, you should go write a book and you could teach all the stuff, I'd be like, Oh man, but I'm so busy. You know, I've got a kid and a wife and I've got a career and I've got this retail company. And I would just make a a list of bullshit excuses of things why I wasn't really serving the purpose that I am on today. Tony: And it was all stem based on the fear of criticism. Right. And so even when I go through this near-death experience, racing cars and deciding that I need to impact the world, I was still approaching it from a I need to make impact. But I was still being cowardly about my way of doing that, my method. And so I said, you know what, I could write a book. And that doesn't mean I have to be on a stage or a camera or radio or TV and I can just write this book and it'll be a good way that's affordable. It's portable, and I can get what's in my mind out to thousands of people. And so I decided in really November of 2017 I'm going to write a book and I validated the idea and use my social media to ask what they would want from me. And I asked them what questions they would want answered. I was really good at using my entrepreneurship, evaluating a product before I spend time on it. I did that. I applied the same principles to a book which is another product. And while I was writing the book, my editor, Mike, I was giving him a chapter at a time to review and he was like, Man, this is going to be a good book. I cannot tell because he's helped a lot of people become bestsellers and and one day he's like, they're going to want to interview. Joe: You're like, oh, no. Tony: Yeah, he's like because you might be on TV, radio, podcasts, and I felt that Stagefright, again, coming up was like, I'm in. But I'm kind of a daredevil anyways, and I said, you know what, this is a sign. This is this is a sign I need to go take care of this fear. So just like any other normal human with a fear or something or challenge like so just like most people with a fear of public speaking or any other challenge, they basically get on Google or they get on Syria, they ask, you know, how do we overcome this? And for the results, I said, join a Toastmasters or join a Rotary Club and hire a speaking coach. I said, OK, this is something I have to do. And and obviously, it was really, really avoiding this kind of scenario. So I joined Toastmasters. It's a it's a nonprofit that teaches public speaking and leadership. And there's local clubs all over the world and is really inexpensive. I think it was like 45 dollars for our whole six months. And I said this is like a no brainer. So I'll I'll try that. And so I said, if I'm going to go, I'm going. I'm not going to be a spectator. I'm going to make myself really uncomfortable. I want to sit in the front row and I'm going to raise my hand every meeting with, like once a week and just volunteer to do something in the front of the room and just make myself uncomfortable. And because I knew that the book was about five months out and I needed to get ahead of this. Right. So Joe: Yeah. Tony: So that's what I did is so I would learn a new tactic of public speaking at a meeting. And then for the next seven days, I would do videos. I would I would go on Instagram or Facebook and just practice what I was learning on public speaking to my phone and is really uncomfortable. And I did not. All those videos exist or like in May, June of 2017. And I basically just I just did them every day. And that's how I improved. And I used to be so afraid of just doing videos, I would do them in my truck. Somebody walked by in the park in like an aisle away, I would put the camera down and act like I wasn't doing any videos because I was so weird to go through that. And I would record myself like ten takes and I would finally get one. That was the best I could do at that given moment. And I would share that one. And and that's how I did better. And I did that for over a year. And now within six months of me joining Toastmasters and doing those reps and making myself uncomfortable and doing about a speech per month, I actually started competing and representing that club and the Toastmasters competitions. And I actually won and went three rounds like Joe: Wow. Tony: I went I was like fourth place in all of Houston, you know, after doing the club level than the area level that I went to district. And it was it was crazy. So even after winning a couple of competitions, I, I finally started realizing there might actually be something to this. Like I actually might be OK at doing this. Joe: Mm hmm. Tony: So it's me winning competitions to finally realized that. And like anything else that I get into, I just go all in. And to me, public speaking was the thing I needed to go get good at. And I focused on it. I studied who I thought were the best speakers. I learned from people to hire a speaking coach. And I did reps and and I actually became the president of that Toastmasters club. And I grew it to one of the largest clubs in Houston and had about 50 active members at the time. I was president for a year or so. I got to go from being transformed to transforming hundreds of people that came in and out those doors for a period of over four years of being in that organization. And and I just I've seen so many changes that most people really underestimate the the quickness you can change. And I would say for most Toastmasters, you can come in definitely afraid. And if you participate within three to six months, you'll be a completely different person. So it happens that fast. And I've seen it too many times to to argue the results. So if you're out there and you're worried about public speaking or doing videos like this or you have a fear of that, like go join, make yourself uncomfortable, do the reps and it is a skill is not a talent. When you hear someone speaking like I do now, it's not a talent. It's not something I was born with. It wasn't even a thought in my mind to be a public speaker. But I learned the tactics and the strategies of effective communication and how to use my vocal inflections and speed and volume control presence, hands. All the things that you never even think about are part of communication. You learn when you actually get coached and you actually it's a skill. It's just like learning a new language. Joe: Yeah, and it was a real surprise to me, because I actually heard you say that you had a real fear of public speaking in it. I think it was a clubhouse room because you were giving advice to someone. And when you said that, I was like, I can't be the same person. I just, you know, I didn't understand it. And I personally think, you know, I come from the entertainment side of things. I own an entertainment booking agency here in Phoenix, probably one of the biggest ones here. So I was a performer my whole life. So it's not hard for me to necessarily do this, even though, yeah, a lot of people don't like how they look. They don't like how they're their own voice, all these things. But Tony: Yeah. Joe: I think you have a great voice. It's it's incredibly soothing the way that's what I liked about how you presented yourself in those rooms. It wasn't like I'm great and it wasn't like there's a lot of people that just sort of yell and they're like, you know, that's how they Tony: I'm Joe: Get there Tony: Super awesome, Joe: Exist. Tony: And for nine hundred ninety seven dollars, Joe: But Tony: You can get the course that will make you a millionaire Joe: That Tony: And one Joe: Is
A conversation with the principal of Jotham S. Stein P.C. about his recent book called "Even CEOs Get Fired". This is an easy read for any entrepreneur, C-Suite executive or investor on the tips and tricks in today's high stakes business world. It's probably safe to say that most people who want to make sure they are protected in their work environment whether you're the CEO or you work for a company, should definitely read this book! Enjoy this very educational conversation with Jotham Stein. Thank you for listening! Enjoy, Joe Jotham S. Stein Principal - Law Offices of Jotham Stein P.C. Website: https://jotham.com Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jothamstein/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/jotham.stein LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jotham-s-stein-7b92474/ Podcast Music By: Andy Galore, Album: "Out and About", Song: "Chicken & Scotch" 2014 Andy's Links: http://andygalore.com/ https://www.facebook.com/andygalorebass If you enjoy the podcast, would you please consider leaving a short review on Apple Podcasts/iTunes? It takes less than 60 seconds, and it really makes a difference in helping to convince hard-to-get guests. For show notes and past guests, please visit: https://joecostelloglobal.libsyn.com Subscribe, Rate & Review: I would love if you could subscribe to the podcast and leave an honest rating & review. This will encourage other people to listen and allow us to grow as a community. The bigger we get as a community, the bigger the impact we can have on the world. Sign up for Joe's email newsletter at: https://joecostelloglobal.com/#signup For transcripts of episodes, go to: https://joecostelloglobal.lybsyn.com Follow Joe: https://linktr.ee/joecostello Transcript Joe: Jotham Stein, welcome so much, I'm glad you join me on the podcast. I'm looking forward to this. I don't do a lot of things that dig deep into legal conversation. So this is going to be very educational for me and I know for my audience as well. So thank you so much for joining me. Jotham: Thanks for having me on your show, Joe. Joe: Yeah, absolutely, so we're going to definitely talk about your new book, which is ""Even CEOs Get Fired"", which is very interesting because I've been a CEO my whole life. So it's kind of scary to think about that I would get fired from my own company first, get a little back story about you from the interviews that I heard. I know that you and I are both New Yorkers. So I grew up a couple hours north of New York City. And you grew up on Long Island. If I if I remember correctly. Jotham: That's true. I'm proud graduate of high school, Syosset, Long Island, New York City, Nassau County, sort of almost all the way to something closer to north and south shore, but pretty much in the middle. Joe: And do you still get back there or you're not there, right? Do you live in California now? Jotham: Yes, I live in Half Moon Bay, California, three blocks from the beach, so when I was growing up in high school, I used to love to go to the beach. That's where you go, you know, all the time in Jones Beach Those Joe: Yes. Jotham: Beaches, even Robert Moses State Park on Fire Island, you go there, too. Now, I live three blocks from the Pacific Ocean and Joe: That's Jotham: Happened back. Joe: That's awesome. I saw a kiss at Jones Beach. Of all Kiss and Aerosmith all in one night. Jotham: In one night, wow, Joe: One. Jotham: I think you have the theater there, like in the bay. Oh, Joe: Yeah, Jotham: That's cool. Joe: And I where I went to college, I went to New York State University and pretty much the entire university was Long Island resident. So I have a bunch of friends that live out a lot. So it's near and dear to my heart. Can you give me a little back story about you, like how you decided to get into law? You know, just I like my audience to know who you are, and we just don't launch into, like, who you are. Now, it's interesting to know the person and then we get into what's going on today. Jotham: So after high school, I went to college at Princeton in New Jersey, and I was actually interested in public policy. So one of the things people are interested in public policy do is they go to law school. So I wound up I never really been to California only one time in my life. So I was fortunate enough. I applied to California schools, got into Stanford and and went to law school at Stanford, which is right in Silicon Valley, as it turns out. So I got out of Stanford and I went to work for the big Silicon Valley law firm for two years. You know, the firm that probably I think started Apple are famous in this area. Not that I have anything to do with Apple, but but I went to work for that law firm for a couple of years and then left and traveled the world. I hitchhiked around quite a bit. I've been in quite a few countries and that I eventually hung out my own shingle in Silicon Valley and people knew that I was. I started out in litigation, meaning when people are individuals or companies to each other. But after a while, a lot of the local lawyers figured out that that I could probably write a contract to protect people as best you can from getting into lawsuits. Jotham: So that's how it started. And eventually, I'm an entrepreneur myself, so I like meeting a lot of entrepreneurs and executives of people. So I'm a lawyer that has a lot of people as clients, real people that have different issues. And so I like meeting them at all that show. When you start doing a good job with one entrepreneur, they refer you to other entrepreneurs. Lawyers refer you to other entrepreneurs. I ran an advertisement I talk about in my book, "Even CEOs Get Fired", which is sort of named after an advertisement ran 20 odd years ago and no longer existent magazine called Red Herring, which in those days was the hot Silicon Valley magazine. And it was titled "Even CEOs Get Fired". And you would not believe who called me off this advertisement because people have all sorts of problems at employment at every level. My book is for everybody from the entry level individual to the mid-level manager to the CEO. And all those people called me off that Ed. And and one thing led to another. And here I am. Now, I, I know a lot about protecting executives, entrepreneurs, mid-level employees, starting out employees, somebody with a new business and so forth. So that's that's the background. Joe: Perfect. And so I notice that you have not one, but three officers Jotham: I Joe: Said true. Jotham: Do. That is true. Joe: How? Jotham: How do you get to ask me how I wind up having three offices? So. Joe: Well, because it's like I know even when you were with David Meltzer on that interview, it's like, why? What was the first thing that came to your mind when you said, hey, I'm going to break out on my own, get out of the safety net of working at a firm? Right. You don't have to think about much of anything but what you're responsible to do. But then you break out you open up not only one office, but you have three offices. So I was looking going, OK, man, he really went for. Jotham: So that's the story of those offices, of course, that my longtime office has always been in Silicon Valley, in Palo Alto, although these days with covid you can work anywhere, we could work anywhere anyway when you represent as entrepreneurs do not care where you are in the world, as long as you're giving them excellent advice. And many of them won't even come to visit me in my Palo Alto office because time is money. They'd rather be doing whatever they're good at with the mobile games, whether it's by a pharmacy, but it's a Wi-Fi, whether it's security, whatever they're great at, they don't want to come visit their lawyer maybe once. So I could really work anywhere. But I had an office and I now have an office in Chicago land outside the Chicago suburbs, in part because I live there. And I can say that living near Lake Michigan in that area and those lakes out there is not the same as living by the ocean. We grow up along Long Island by the ocean, and it has to smell like salt. So I now moved back to California and I have an office in New York on Long Island as well. And that's actually because you're supposed to have an office in New York if your practice law in New York, and I'm licensed in New York, in Illinois and in California, Colorado and the District of Columbia. So that's Joe: Perfect. Jotham: How got. Joe: All right, well, good. Can I can I break down what your firm and what you do, like what's the specialty before we get into talking more about the book? Jotham: Look, the thing is, it's going to really help you, you know, the CEO, but it's also a breezy read. This is easy to read in the story. In the book, about 40 percent of the book is there. Fifty nine stories there that are fictional. They're the repetitive stories of genres of stories that happen, but they're not any specific story that made them up actually to Peet's Coffee in Half Moon Bay here. I wrote the I wrote all of those there. And so you might find out, hey, that happened to me or or it happened to somebody. I know. But it's because it's a kind of repetitive story that happened. So it'll be a really easy read for you. You can read it on a plane, you can read it on a train, you can read it at your house, you can read it on the beach or wherever, or you can read it, you know, looking for very straightforward advice about how to negotiate a contract and how to protect yourself. Joe: I think it gets confusing with people who don't understand the law and don't understand when they might need an attorney and when they don't. What would you say if you had to put down the bullet points of what your firm does? What do you specialize in? So if somebody said, hey, they hear this and then they eventually see this YouTube video, they say that's one of those is exactly what I need. And they reach out to your firm. So it'd be nice if we knew exactly what you could help a CEO with or someone who is working for a company at a high level, at sea level position, any of that. Jotham: So the first thing I have to do is be technical here and say that in California, you can't say you specialize in something, you have to say focus on it. That's some ethical obligation. So I don't want to mess it up for anybody who's from California listening to this. So what we focus on, I guess, is I've got I've got to turn that question around on you just to say that sorry about that, Joe: No, Jotham: Because, Joe: That's perfect. Jotham: You know, every every state has their own bloody rules. And so I pay attention to them 100 percent. And so I want to make sure it's focused. So what we do is what if you want one word is we help individual, whether they're the whoever they are, to protect themselves in the employment and personal relationships. So it could be a relationship with your boss, could be a relationship with your company, could be a relationship with your investors. That's typically what we do. So and we represent actually in their individual world, we even represent investors, professional investors like private equity partners, a private equity companies. Those are the venture capital or venture capitalists. We represent venture capitalists typically in their own deals. So when they're protecting themselves, when they're doing deals with other venture capitalists, for example, so with a CEO, for example, we would give us their contracts and they say, well, we should should we sign this? And I said, well, are you protected? Are you protected in your severance? Do you have a profession, what we call a professional prenuptial agreement, which is nothing more than a severance agreement negotiated on day one. So for the executive, that may be, you know, severance and equity protection may be protection for COBRA payments down the road for an individual like an engineer just starting out if they have any leverage at all. And honestly, many don't. But if they do a one line sentence, if you fire me without cause you've asked me six months of stock and and you pay me three months of pay, for example. And so that's what we do. Those kinds of contracts can be not just employment like you're thinking about, but they could be equity contracts. Jotham: So how not to for an entrepreneur, how not to get screwed by your own investors for yourself. It's your own company. Let's say let's just say you taken capital invested. You have an investor, right? So they invest in your company. Suddenly they have 20 percent of the company, suddenly have 30 percent of your company. How do you, Joe, as a CEO, protect yourself vis a vis those investors? Now, like I said, sometimes those investors, the professional investors come to us because they want to be protected against their own investors when they do a deal. So with their own investors. So what they are doing is becoming limited. They're becoming general partners or having some sort of arrangement. So we review contracts and give straightforward advice about how to protect yourself and honestly what the risks are if you don't, because people and businesses take risks all the time. You as a CEO have to be taking risks in your business. So you need to be fully informed about that. And so that's what we do on the individual level. We do represent companies as well. And we are some of our CEO clients have have us, for example, representing their company because they thought we did a good job for them individually. So we do a lot of that also on the separation side, too, and I've described the employment side, protecting, protecting the CEO, like your question was on the front end. But the back end is we helped negotiate separation agreements all the time so that somebody has sort of a smooth landing and can then professional reincarnate themselves. Joe: So I used to share office space with a what are called a placement agency. They were finding jobs for people Jotham: Brian. Joe: And some of these jobs would be at a high level and Jotham: Right. Joe: Really look fairly large salaries if the negotiation of that employment is is carried through the placement agency with the people at the company that are hiring and all of that stuff gets done. How can someone fit in, someone like you or your firm in the middle of that negotiation and make sure before anything gets signed and they get employed that they've been taking care of? Jotham: So Joe: That's Jotham: If Joe: Kind of tricky, right? It's it's. Jotham: It's very tricky because the employment agency is working for the company and the employment agency typically gets paid only when the person is place, so the employment agency has a very that's not always true. Some employment agencies get paid straight salary or commission or something. That's not per person. They're just given a job or a project. But often they only they only succeed if they place the person. All right. So if you're talking on a lower level of employee going into the company, they often don't want to take the risk of going to get a lawyer because I could create a real problem, frankly, in getting their job. If you're talking about a senior executive being placed by an agency that is there, the really best placement agencies that really care about their clients that they're placing, even though they represent the company, will say go get a lawyer, but almost all of them do not even at the highest level. So it's incumbent on the on the on the executive, whoever they are, or entrepreneur. But in this case, employment agency is going to be executive to go and to say get get their lawyer. So once they get a lawyer involved, then the employment agency sort of out on the outside and some liaison between the executive and the company and using us often as shadow counsel. So we don't even appear until the end to work on the contract. But, you know, if you're going into if you're a senior senior level person, you want to know what your downside risks are, what your recommendations are from from somebody who's seen it hundreds and hundreds of times, maybe a thousand times before. So. Joe: For someone who's listening to this, that is at that level that hasn't thought about that, step back for a moment. Take what you've been offered. Find someone like your law firm and say, I need you to review this contract to make sure it's in my best interests so that once I sign, I'm being taken care of all in there. And I have some sort of exit strategy that makes sense. That's fair on the way out. Jotham: Absolutely, 100 percent, I couldn't have said it better myself, Joe: Well, Jotham: So, Joe: I'm learning already. Jotham: Yeah, it's great you're learning and it's just to maximize the return, the person Joe: Right. Jotham: That's listening to the podcast. So they want to maximize their return. Why in the world would they sign a contract without being fully informed? And the only way to be fully informed is to come to someone like myself who's done it hundreds of times. I can tell you we've had the most shrewd executives, some that have been so successful in their lives, and they come to us after they get screwed and they say, well, what happened? And I say, well, if you talk with me before you sign the contract, either you wouldn't have negotiated this and you would have protected yourself or you would have said, you know, Jotham, thank you very much for that great advice. I'm going to take the risk. I hope I don't call you to tell me to tell me meaning, Jotham, Joe: All Jotham: The person Joe: Right, I told, Jotham: That you told me so. Joe: Right, exactly. Let's take me, for example, as a CEO of a company and like I had mentioned, I have I have had three or four companies up till now. Do you if what I ever come to you and say, I need help protecting my personal assets, I need some way for you to look at my business and look at my personal assets to make sure that as as an LLC, which I am an LLC with an escort on the tax side in my protecting myself, is that another thing that you would help someone do or that's just different? That's a different. Jotham: That's actually a complicated question, so I certainly read the operating agreement because many, many people start it depends on how you're asking the question of it's called context dependent. If you're asking me how can I set up a corporate formation that I'll best protect myself with trusts and estates, I'm not the person to do trust estates. Right. We send that out to lawyers we know all the time. That's a special area if you want to set up. Like I said, I trust the estate and lawyers in the legal world. They call that trust the state's law. If you come to me and say, how best can I protect myself in the corporate world by setting up an LLC, we certainly could set up an LLC have done that. We also work with other firms or give advice all the time to our entrepreneurial clients. I mean, I'm like a secretary or just just have been secretaries of companies before for our clients. But we might work with with another law firm if, for example, they had doing a sophisticated security transaction by selling stock or something. But so we could we give advice on that. And at some point we'll stop and say, no, you need somebody else. Jotham: If you're if you're talking about how you Joe, who has an LLC, can protect yourself vis a vis other investors or vis a vis partners, you might have strategic strategic partners or even vendors or contractors. Yes, we do that all the time. Then you would come to me. So basically we have client exactly like you're describing somebody who just starts a business. There's a bit of serial entrepreneur and they get most of their advice from us and we say, no, we're not giving you advice. For example, tax law. I never give advice on tax write. I know the lawyers who give the advice, but and I recommend our clients that to that. But I have I have clients who want me to give them advice on tax law. And I'm like, absolutely not. Let me let me let me tell you where to go. And, you know, most most people who are in business and and are will say, OK, well, my lawyer's telling me he's not the right person. We find them the right person. That's just an example. So your question sort of involved a number of possibilities. And Joe: Sure. Jotham: Without knowing the facts, I can't really answer 100 percent, but. Joe: Yeah, and I'm just trying to drive to the fact that if I was listening, like I listen to a podcast of the chat and things will pop out during an episode where I'll say, oh, that is something I've been thinking about or something I to get an answer for. So I'm trying to make sure that everyone knows who's listening to this and eventually will watch it, know the things that you can do for them in case something pops up. I'm trying to ask the questions that if I was listening to this, I wonder if he can do this for me. It's that kind of thing. I'm just trying to make sure that if there's something you can do, I want people to know you can do it for them. Jotham: Oh, yeah, I mean, you want to start a business, we knew that you want to get investment, we protect you, you want to do employment, work on any level, we could help you protect yourself. You got a strange sort of possibility for your next job, for your next business deal. You come to us, we give you straightforward advice, and that's really the key. And we give great business advice as well as great legal advice. And you'll see if when you read the book, "Even CEOs Get Fired" half of our work. Is that so? In other words, since we've seen so many different possibilities, people in the gym don't not going to see that the hair on my head on your YouTube channel. But but I've seen all these all so many different possibilities that go right in that go wrong. And sometimes they go right. The person's thirty third business, they say, oh, business one, that business do they reincarnate and they and they maximize their returns and they make it on the third go. But we have lots of people sitting there doing that on the bikes or in the gym and maybe on the rowing machine. Jotham: A row or so do rowing machines, you know, just because it's they've succeeded twice before and they're going to their third job doesn't mean that they don't have tremendous pitfalls in their deal, whether it's their equity deal or whether it's their employment deal, whatever the deal is, whether it's a deal to to have your perks, for example, cars, for example, to drive around, it doesn't mean that because you've been OK the first two times, there isn't some gigantic problem that might rear its ugly head the third time around. So if you're going in as an entrepreneur to a company or starting a company or as your executive or anybody with leverage in employment, it's always a question. Do you spend money on a lawyer? But if you want to protect yourself or want to see what your downside risks are, want to be fully informed. I want to have either the opportunity to maximise your personal returns, whatever they are, or know that you're taking risks in that attempt to maximize them. You would come to me or my law firm or or a lawyer who does similar type work wherever that person lives. Joe: Great. OK, so to lighten things up a little bit, Jotham: Ok, it's. Joe: So I thought about this when I heard you talk about there's fifty nine fictional stories there, actually there are real circumstances, but you've you've obviously protected the people by not naming names and naming companies or whatever. Right. So is that what you mean by those fifty nine. These are actual things that occurred, but you just created them to not name companies or names or anything specific. Jotham: More like they're not they're not individual to any individual story, I've had it just happen so many times over and over again. And so it's like, OK, I get something that happens. An entrepreneur walks in and I'm like, OK, this is like 16 other times it's happened. It's new to the entrepreneur, but to me it's happened a lot of times before. So that's what I mean by it's fictional, but it's based on my experience. So I literally wrote them at a Peet's Coffee. Right. And so, I mean, let me take one, for example. Joe: I was going to ask I said I was going to put you on the spot, say I love story, so I need you to tell us why. Jotham: Ok, so there's one in my book, I actually spoke just briefly about it with David Meltzer. It's one I like. OK, here's a perfect example. There's a very successful woman as a number two at the company. Essentially, she is also a biathlete. So I like athletics. I never did biathlon, but it's people who do cross-country skiing and shoot at targets. Right. OK, she's very successful. She has a doctor. She is a doctor. But like some doctors that you never think about, they go into business. Right? All these biopharma companies, a lot of these are ends. They never actually practiced. But I got clients who I have clients who are MDs at practice and those that never practice. They get their degree and they go right into business. So this this character goes into business. And her CEO, she's doing really well after four years of this company and her CEO gets changed out the prior CEOs to lead. This happens all the time. New CEO comes in and this character is as good, as honest as the day is long. And the new CEO wants a yes person. Jotham: So, you know, yes man, a yes woman. And she is not a woman at all. And so he decides he's going to push her out. OK, this happens all the time. So he makes her life miserable. But being a biathlete who's well trained, she's she's able to stays there and continues to work like we see so many of our executives and entrepreneurs, they think because they work harder and they do a better job, that the board and the CEO are going to somehow like them more. And that's not the way it works. If somebody who wants a yes person wants to get rid of you so or in a different world, very similar corollary genre. A new CEO comes in, wants to bring in their old team. They're going to fire people below them. And the literature is actually you should do it within 60 or 90 days. So it doesn't matter how good those people are. Anyway, she's a straight shooter. That's what I say in the story, right? She's a straight shooter at two hundred yard Joe: Right. Jotham: Shooting a rifle and she's a straight shooter. The CEO and the CEO finally can't take it anymore. And he fires her. He gets the board to approve the board votes. Five, nothing to fire after nine months. Maybe it's maybe I don't even my story. Right. Maybe it's ten months. Maybe it's seven months. But it's something like that. Joe: Ok. Jotham: This happens all the time. I've never had a biathlete as a client. I've always admired biathletes when I watch them on TV. I did spend time in Lake Placid while I was doing Lugt, a different sport Joe: Oh, nice. Jotham: So I could talk about that anyway. So what's the story? So this thing's all made up, but what happens after she's now out? She gets a severance agreement, she leaves, she's at the firing range, practicing at two hundred yards and she gets a text. Who's getting a text from she's getting a text from the investor of that company who sat on the board who voted to fire her was five nothing, remember? OK, the investor says, as so often happens in Silicon Valley entrepreneurial world, the investor says essentially this is all by text now. So I'm paraphrasing my own writing. So now north of our paraphrasing what I wrote and the investor says, well, why don't you look at two of my other portfolio companies? And she text back the character, text back to the investor and says, well, I don't understand. I got a great severance agreement. You fired me. Vote was five nothing. Why are you contacting me? And he says, well, it didn't work out so well at the other company, but one of my portfolio companies here might be a better fit. OK, that's a story that's happened multiple times in Silicon Valley, multiple times in the entrepreneurial world. I have no, that's what I mean. I created them. That's a genre of a story. So I could have a client come in today after our podcast, they could tell me a similar story and I'd say, don't burn the bridges with those people sitting on the board that you all those board members almost always invest in startup, not always, but almost always back the CEO until the day they fire the CEO. But you've just been fired. You're the EVP or the SVP or the VP, whoever you are, that board member sitting there who's a shrewd investor, the only thing they care about really is all of their other portfolio companies they're taking care of. Right. And so they may call you to offer you a job. So you don't know that. So what in this story comes in in a part of the book, which I guess I should show again, Joe: Absolutely. Jotham: "Even CEOs Get Fired". There's a chapter on professional reincarnation. So and this happens all the time to somebody just like this character gets fired. And so they reincarnate themselves in the next job. That's a very, very, very common circumstance. I often have clients. It's a terrible separation. They're having like this particular executive I described in my story, nine months of being beaten. I mean, it's a miserable place to work. But a lot of these a lot of these people soldier on. They've always been they think that they work harder. It's going to get better and often it doesn't. And but I often tell people six months later, you're going to call me and tell me it's the best thing that ever happened to you got fired. Joe: All Jotham: And Joe: Right. Jotham: Many of them, if they have protection, you know, they. They call me six months later, they say, hey, it's the best thing that ever happened to me, I got fired to have a better job. I have a better life at home. Whatever it is, I'm doing sports more often. I'm getting paid more. I get better equity, whatever. Joe: Right, so there was two takeaways from that story for me. One was that potentially that smart woman had you look at their contract. And so when they did finally get removed from the CEO position, they walked away with a nice severance package. It didn't have to fight to get anything. And the second thing that you mentioned was that they left in good terms, at least with the board, which showed that they could then potentially get more opportunities down the road by not having this giant blow off at the end of it. Jotham: So the I should say with what you just said, the second one is absolutely true and there's a part in my story where I talk about burning bridges and you should and I say, listen, sometimes it's the best thing personally, mentally to burn the bridge, to strike back. OK, Joe: Right. Jotham: I got that. But I what I talk about in the book and what I try to tell all my clients and the people on the podcast that are listening to everything in business coldly and calculatingly, if you're going to lose your crap in somebody and you're going to start yelling at them because they fire you and you're never going to talk to them again, that's fine. And but what I say is do it coldly and calculatingly, at least understand what you're doing. So in this in this case, and what I often talk about in the book is the character did not burn their bridges. It's true. They left the first part of your what you took away was that they had come to us for a employment agreement. Actually, in this case, two things. One is they got a great separation agreement even with the person who didn't like them and forced them out. They got a good separation agreement. So they negotiated that on the back end. And the other thing I should say is, as I say in the book, I am not into stories. It's modeled after the advice I would give. But I'm not in the story because the story is totally fictional. But it's as important to get a good separation agreement and be professional on the back end as it is to get an employment agreement on the front end. Joe: So this has been bothering me, like, why did you stop? Fifty nine and I go to sixth. Why did you go past fifty five to fifty nine? Jotham: The truthful answer is I didn't count them up until the end, so I didn't know how many I wrote, Joe: Ok. Jotham: But there is there is a story there's two stories in my acknowledgments, one with a colleague who's worked with my law firm a long time. I thank her for reading many versions of the book. And I tell a story there. And once for the four people I dedicated the book to, I tell the last story in the book and that actually involves for four Long Island guy going to the beach, Jones Beach. And so it could be 60 one by. Joe: Perfect. OK, I just it was something that I wanted to ask, Jotham: The. Joe: So just so with the way the world has changed it actually let me let me back up in the dotcom era. Right. But like when everything was all about equity, how Jotham: Right. Joe: Much has that changed now? Because I remember when that was going on, like, I literally this is going to be funny. You're going to. But when I was working for a software company before I opened my first company and I was working in New York, we were actually teaching corporations how to use a Web browser. I was literally at the beginning of the Internet. So I remember just companies starting and going come in and work with us. The pay is going to be low to nothing, but we're going to give you equity in the company. And it was just all over the place. Every company was giving shares away. Right. That's the that was that whole era of the dotcom portion of the world. How has that changed now? Jotham: It's exactly back to the way it was Joe: Really? Jotham: And absolutely there are hundreds of thousands, tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of people running around in Silicon Valley and elsewhere. Remember, I've license a license to practice multiple states. So we have clients all over the country. They want equity. It's all about an equity play. Now, having said that, there are many, many companies who don't really give equity to anybody but their senior officers. And there's many places in our country, in America, where you only get a salary. And there are many, many kinds of many salespeople who care about equity, but mostly what they want is commissions. And, for example, an uncapped commission plan would be there, their their golden golden goose. They don't want to have equity. But if you're talking about the old dotcom days, because I was there then, too. And now if there are many people whose deals is all about an equity play, they get less pay than they could on the market for whatever they're doing. They take the risks and and often, especially for those starting out, coming out of college, they may go to two or three startups which will fail. And then the fourth or fifth one is the one that gives them, you know, a tremendous upside so they can go buy their next their house or whether the house, multiple houses, whatever it is. So it's really the same as it was when you were doing that in the dotcom era. Joe: Was was there a lull at one point after the dotcom where everyone felt so burned about equity and all of that, that for a while it wasn't even on the table or. Jotham: I think there was a guy there was like it never went away for everybody, but yes, there was definitely a period of time when I remember the stock market was in, that was way down and there weren't so many IPOs and people wanted that was all about salary even before the start ups or upside bonus upsides. If you did a good job after a year, even though you got a lower salary. And so it did it did desire for equity and equity plays slackened? I would absolutely say that there was like a trough like this, but now it's back to the way it was in my view. And it's that way not just for the entry level person coming out of college, wants to get some equity in the company and not just for the mid-level individual who's moving from one company to another, but also all the way up to the CEOs who want more equity and and give up salary or bonuses. Now, at the largest companies that you hear about the fortune, one hundred companies, those executives are getting equity and very high. So and bonuses and what's called long term incentive plans. So it depends on where you're what you're talking about, what company context you're talking about, what region of the country. But in terms of the startups of the world, the smaller companies in the world, the equity play for everybody from from the person who takes out the garbage all the way to the CEO, it's it's it's the way it was. Joe: That's incredible, and you would see a lot of that where you are in Palo Alto, where you're know Silicon Valley right here. Jotham: All the time, Joe: All Jotham: And when Joe: The Jotham: You Joe: Time. Jotham: Think all the time and when you talk about that, if you're getting stock in a company and it means a lot to you, you better figure out or you should figure out how to protect yourself with that stock. So, for example, many times companies give out shares over four years, let's say, or five years, they vest over time. And in the first year they have what's called a cliff. So you got no stock, you don't get any stock, you know, right. To stock until the end of a year. What happens if you're fired at 11 months and 30 days just before the year the contract says you get nothing. So do you want to protect yourself against that possibility? Because that happens a lot. Right. Joe: That's crazy. Wow. All right, so I grew up in a large Italian family that owned a restaurant business Jotham: Ok. Joe: And I literally I partnerships for me make me cringe. Just just the word makes me cringe. Jotham: Right. Joe: And and I saw my own internal family fight and I saw my my father, who has since passed by his brother, is still living. But I saw that literally just separate and not talk to each other for years and the rest of the family hating each other. So that's just the lead in to the question of partnerships. Is there a part in the book? Again, the book is "Even CEOs Get Fired". Is there a part in that book that talks about partnerships and talks about what to look for, red flags, things that that seem to always go wrong in partnerships, any of that sort of advice? Jotham: So there is a little bit, but it does not heavily focused on partnerships because but but the teachings in the book on how to protect yourself, maximize your returns, put everything in a clear contract. That's very clear. There's two sort of parts of the Italian family having the restaurant business and then a fight among family members. OK, and and that is discussed in the book in a different way, which is, you know, make sure, you know, you're going into business with. But part of the problem is I can't protect you from a fight among man family members who are fighting for many other reasons and historical reasons. Right. I mean, they just weren't family members in the business. They had had a family history. Right. They grew up together. They had uncles and aunts and grandparents. And so that's that's a personal sort of a personal concern. Those people that's that that a lawyer can help you with, although we turn out being a psychologist all the time. So we might have been able to help. For example, somebody comes to us and this happens all the time to partners in fighting and we say, well, why are you fighting? You know, maybe it's better you break up. And before you have a fight about this, do you really want to sue each other? Because you wouldn't believe some of the lawsuits that are fought between family members of former friends. It's terrible. Joe: Well, yeah, and I was going to say this was a push out, my father got pushed out, so this was a thing where he worked there all the help build this business his entire life. And in the end, this could happen and he got pushed out. Jotham: So the worst part of those kinds of push ups that happens, and I'll tell you another one of my stories that repeats itself all the time, the worst problem of those stories that I hear about you're telling me about is the personal the personal suffering. Right, with getting getting kicked out of your own family business, getting stabbed in the back by your own brother or uncle. That worst part of that isn't the financial loss, although that can be terrible. The worst part is the personal loss and the personal relationships that are lost and the suffering that happens on a personal level, that sometimes people need psychologists for that to help them there rather than a lawyer. The second part of that is the financial potential loss that we could have helped to protect himself. Because if you have a contract and we've had some of these where nobody can fire the other person, contractually, you can't fire them. So they have to do a deal. Or in a typical family situation, somebody passes, you have a buy sell agreement. But imagine having a contract that we've had these with really sophisticated investors. So imagine like your manager, whoever pushed out your dad, not having the legal right to do that contract says the business is 50 50. And one or even the contract could say uncle gets 70 percent of the business. I get 30 percent of the business. But you can't fire me and you've got to keep paying me or well, if you fire me, at least you got to you've got to continue to pay me my exact same salary with a cola cost of living increase. You know, there are ways to help to make sure that it's negotiated out as opposed to a coup. Now, the story. You want to hear this story from the book. Joe: A Jotham: That's Joe: Totally. Jotham: All right there. The repetitive story that happens a lot. And again, the worst is just like your dad. The worst is the personal cost is the person who gets the entrepreneur who gets stabbed in the back and is forced out of their own business. The palace coup, the leader or not necessarily always the leader, but the person who following along, enjoying in that palace coup is a person who stood up at their wedding. And the wrongdoer is the person who stood up in the wedding. And so when the client comes to me with the story and it's happened many times, multiple times over the years, and the worst thing you feel both terrible about is the client here is now telling this story. They made a lifetime of decisions to have the wrongdoer stand up at their wedding and they believe that that person was their loyal friend. And the destruction of that friendship and and the and the new clients recognition that they got it wrong on a personal level, that's even worse than the the financial costs and the financial cost can be great. Being stabbed in the back by the person who stood up at your wedding stories only happened when money becomes involved. And the startup world, that's usually when equity suddenly becomes it goes from a penny a share and suddenly it's worth fifty dollars a share, twenty dollars a share. And by the way, unfortunately, I have to report that the wrongdoer can be a bridesmaid just as much as it can be a groomsman. Joe: Wow. OK, so here's the question I have based on the circumstance we just talked about with my father having that business and it goes for any any business. If you start to think something's going bad, is it too late then to try to figure out a way to protect yourself? Jotham: Maybe, but the first thing you should do if you get if you get concerned that something is going wrong is not wait around, it's go find a lawyer who knows what to do and might be able to help you. So this is something I do talk about in the book. If you get a lawyer while the things are going wrong and he or she acts as your shadow counsel, they can often help you, first of all, react in an appropriate way, in a way that protects yourself, maximize your protection while things are going downhill. But for example, in the email wars that might happen where somebody else is trying to paper file and and, you know, something's wrong, but you don't know what they're doing, you can paper that file to protect yourself. And so that's really important since actually what you just described. I've had that on my website. My my professional website, which is not the book's website, is "Even CEOs Get Fired" dotcom. So Joe: Perfect. Jotham: If you want to learn Joe: I was Jotham: More Joe: Hoping Jotham: About Joe: You Jotham: It. Joe: Would say that. Jotham: Yeah. Even see, it's one word, "Even CEOs Get Fired" dotcom. Joe: Our. Jotham: But even before that, I had a professional website being a Silicon Valley very early on and it talked about exactly what you just described as something you feel something's going wrong in business, in your job, in a relationship with an investor, whatever it is, call an experienced lawyer, not necessarily the your friend, the lawyer, not necessarily the person who did your your will or your trust, somebody who does entrepreneurial and executive law. And they've seen it before. And they can give you really good advice and you can really keep yourself from being really financially harmed if you do that. Joe: And when something like that happens, like my my brain initially went to, OK, if I felt something was going wrong and I was in a partnership or some sort of partnership, but any circumstance where there are other people involved, because I'm lucky in my case, it's just. I don't have to deal with anything. But if I was in that circumstance, do you have to get the other party to sign? Like, if I came to you and said, listen, something's going wrong, I need to start protecting myself. We need to write up some documents. Are they not official until the other party has seen them or sign the. Jotham: Now, you've asked me a complex question, Joe: Good. Now, here we go. Jotham: You could have an oral contract, right? Many Joe: Ok. Jotham: People have law contracts. You could have an oral contract evidence by a course of business doing business. So I really have to know more. That's something the first thing we ever do when somebody comes with a sort of a fact pattern, you just ask me is we want a full chronology of events. So if you come to a lawyer who's seen a lot of it before, they'll be able to figure out where you might have protection because you have an oral contract, for example, as one example, because the other side has it doesn't have anything in writing, even though they're trying to force you out. But I don't want to go back, if I can, to your father getting pushed out, Joe: Mm Jotham: If that's Joe: Hmm. Jotham: All right. Like, Joe: Yeah. Jotham: I don't know what happened. I never heard about it. So you just told me. Tell me now. But it's likely that your father groused a lot and was worried about it with his own family and didn't do what I just described, which is go find a lawyer who's shrewd and maybe unable, able to help him protect himself from the Paluska that that happened. And so it happens even in a small family business, you know, and now it's I'm going to a lawyer. You go to a lawyer and and you and you tell them the fact pattern. If they're good, they'll give you advice. And some of the advice might be, don't tell me I'm have a lawyer. Right. Just go along. You know when to disclose. You have a lawyer is it's a business decision and you want to maximize your return when you do that. So now that I went back to your father, I might have forgot what you just asked me. So Joe: No, Jotham: I have a question. Joe: No, that's OK, I just I didn't you you alluded to the fact that it could be an oral contract. I didn't even know there was such a thing. I thought that in the eyes of the law, everything had to be written and signed. So I don't know what you mean by an oral agreement. Jotham: So so OK, because you have listeners, I assume, across the country, I have to say, I'm not giving specific legal advice just so they understand Joe: Yep. Jotham: In every jurisdiction is different. And if you happen to live in Alaska or Louisiana, particularly Louisiana, it's really different. So, you know, if you're in North Dakota listening to this or you're in Illinois or wherever you're listening, you have to go see somebody in your own. And wherever you are, your own fancy word is jurisdiction, state, whatever. But in most places, they're an oral contract is equally as enforceable as a written contract. If two people come to a meeting of the minds literally about a contract and there's consideration and it's oral, depending on what the form of the contract is, you can have an enforceable contract. Now, they're in every state. There are certain contracts that can't be formed orally. A classic example in many places is you can't have a contract for land that's oral, but in most other places in all contract is enforceable. Is a written contract actually now a written contract is easier to sort of prove in some ways because you have it in writing. And if you ever have to go to a judge or a jury, you put that thing up on the screen and it says, look, you signed it and there it is. Joe: Right. Jotham: But it's equally enforceable, dependent, you know, there are always limitations on oral contracts that every state might be a little different, but absolutely. And so then there are other fancy things in the law, oral contract evidence by writing. So, you know, if you can prove it, you have an oral contract and you sent an email and that's your writing. So that might be a little different. An oral contract evidenced by a course of dealing. We always did this for the last 10 years. So that shows that we had an oral contract to always do this in the future. That's a possibility, too. So now I recommend in the in my book, even the CEOs get fired. You sign clear written agreements because that reduces your chances of getting into a fight. Right. If it's in writing and it's clear, even if the other side's a wrongdoer, you know, it's clear they're realize they're going to try to work around the clear language and and or what happens off to the business. If you have a really clear contract and they don't want you, they buy you out. The classic example being a separation agreement, they fire you, but they give you a good, good exit package. Joe: So I had no idea so that it's a huge light bulb went off that I thought if it wasn't written and it wasn't signed, if both parties didn't sign it. Both attorneys didn't review it. It doesn't if it's not done in writing and signed, it doesn't exist. So this is. Jotham: If you've had a meeting of the minds so so typically the kind of contract you're talking about in writing where it goes back and forth, back and forth to the lawyers and everybody, there is no meeting of the minds until the contract is signed. But, you know, now you're going to think about this. Well, have I ever had an oral contract with somebody else who might have something against me? So but yeah, sure, it could happen. So perfect. I'll give you an example. In your business, you're a CEO of your own companies. Imagine you. I don't know you. You met a successful person and you said, hey, I'll give you twenty five percent of my business if if you tell me how to increase my market share, using that as an example by by one hundred and fifty percent in the next two months. And that person then connects you that connect you with, I don't know, the great guru of market share. And suddenly in a month you've you've increased your market share by one and a half times. You might owe them 20 percent of your business as an example, Joe: Yeah. Jotham: Keep you from going out, making those promises. Joe: Plower. Jotham: So think of it this way. If you make an oral promise, you promise somebody something and they're giving you something back. I'm not talking about, you know, a family member or something, although it could be a family member. Lots of crazy disputes that way. But you promise somebody something in business and it's something to do with your business. And you say, for example, I'll give you twenty percent of my business if you do X, Y and Z. And the other person says, I agree, if I do it in the next two months, you might have an oral contract depending on what state you're in and depending on what it is you promised. Again, if you promise to to sell your property, not likely in most states, but Joe: Right. Jotham: If you're selling your securities 20 percent of your LLC, you might. Joe: It's crazy, I literally it's an eye opener for me. I had no idea. So I'm glad we talked about OK, real quick, because I know I have to let you go. I wanted to ask how covid has has either as it happened with all the things that were going on and what you expect to happen once we reopen up, because, you know, there are these circumstances where people are furloughed. But what does that even mean? Like some of these people are furloughed. They're not getting paid. They have no insurance. It's just like, yeah, we might bring you back. I don't know. Legally, it doesn't seem to mean anything. What happens with people that are taking home equipment from the companies to use it to work from home? The the security of that data, it's no longer within the premises of the company, through their secured network. I mean, all of these crazy things that are going to going to open up as time goes on is is are you starting to see some of those effects or work on those types of cases or any of that sort of stuff? Jotham: Sure, I mean, your question, we could spend another hour Joe: I know, I know. Jotham: Because it involved so many different things, right? I.P individuals coming back from furlough and so forth. So just as a general matter, covid obviously a lot of people working at home. And so there all those things that you just talked about are we get calls about both from the individual side and from the company side as well, because the IP sitting at home or on somebody's computer and not in the location because they're working at home, all of these things are really critical and they've happened since covid shutdown. And now what I think about coming back is some of those businesses wanting everybody back and people don't want to come back yet. So that's a big problem. On the other hand, some of the business want to keep people at home. They're like, OK, it worked really well, let's keep it at home. They don't need to be in an office lower overhead. And actually, sometimes they realize there's more efficiency at work because there aren't anybody to talk to when you're at the house. So it goes both ways. And then there are issues about how to come back from covid and what to do. So we've literally had calls and given advice on many of the things that you just discussed. And they're completely different, right? They're just issues that came up that nobody ever thought about before. I mean, they always thought about what they thought about them, but it didn't happen. Didn't happen. Like a whole country got stuck at home. And now there are all these issues. So happy to talk to you, Morna, in another podcast and we're coming to the end about it. But Joe: Yeah. Jotham: You just raise like so many issues. And one question. Joe: Yeah, I know it's a it's and I was just and for the listeners, it means intellectual property says I want to make sure they understand what we're talking about, what we're talking about that. But, yeah, I'm sure it could be an hour long. Just talking about it real quick for any new laws created because of covid-19 and all of that. Have you dealt with new laws? Jotham: Oh, yeah, there's a huge number, I mean, for example, the stimulus package that happened because of new laws, right? So there are other other laws associated with that. There's been a whole bunch. The legislatures, you know, have done done various things, but there's been three stimulus packages. That's just a one example. Joe: Yeah, yeah, OK, perfect. Can you do me a favor and show the book again, "Even CEOs Get Fired". Jotham: Even Joe: It's a. Jotham: Ceos get fired, you can get it on Amazon, so if you if you type in, "Even CEOs Get Fired", separate words like you're targeting in the words of a book, then you can get, you know, come up on Amazon right away. If you type in my name in the book, you know, do a Google search, it'll come up. The website is "Even CEOs Get Fired" dotcom. But it's one word. You have to type it all together. There's no spaces. So, yeah, like I said, I it's a really breezy read, so I recommend it to you whether you're at the beach, whether you're whether you're in the gym, like doing a bike and you want to, you know, wanted something to read while you're or something. And one of the other things at the gym or Joe: Hmm. Jotham: Whether you're on holiday, it will not bother you at all. Like those 59 stories. If you add the two at the end 60, what I think you really enjoy the read. Joe: Perfect, Jotham, I really appreciate you coming on. It was a pleasure to meet you. It was a pleasure to talk about this is a subject that I have very little knowledge of. And every time I get to meet someone like you and talk about something this in depth, it makes me feel like a better CEO, even though I probably should know more about this than I do. But I appreciate it very much. I wish you all the success with the book. I really look forward to reading it. Jotham: Thank you very much. Thanks for having me on your show, Joe. Joe: You're welcome. Thank you.
The accumulation of power seems like a good idea at first. Then we see how deeply insecure some billionaires and leaders of countries can be. What if no amount of power could ever make you feel safe? What if it was just another thing that could be taken away from you? What if being empowered is the key to the only security that truly sets you free?"Power is control over other people and empowered means that you are not looking for control of others. You are just being you despite the consequences."The accumulation of power seems like a good idea at first. Then we see how deeply insecure some billionaires and leaders of countries can be. What if no amount of power could ever make you feel safe? What if it was just another thing that could be taken away from you? What if being empowered is the key to the only security that truly sets you free? Brett: Joe, what makes this distinction so important?Joe: The empowered overpower distinction. I think there's a deep confusion in us as a people and internally between the two and that confusion is what creates the subjugation that we feel both in the relationship to ourselves and the relationship with the outside world. To clarify that confusion, to actually see that we are always a choice and that choice is always empowered, whether we want to admit it or not is a way to set us free from that subjugation.Brett: Power is real. There are people who really do have power over us and there are situations in which we have limited control. That must be partially responsible for our situation.Joe: Yes and no. The thing is, that we're all interdependent, everything is interdependent. It's like a gigantic machine if you will or a gigantic ecosystem. Who has the power, the ants or the mountain lion or the rabbits? If any of them go, the whole system changes. The whole system is dependent on all the other parts of the system. In that way, yes, there are things that have power over us. If you're a deer, deer ticks have power over you and mountain lions have power over you, but if you're a mountain lion, deer have power over you because if the deer disappear, you're screwed, you're not eating. There's a way of looking at it that says, "Oh, wow, everything that I'm interdependent on has power over me." You can look at it that way and it's absolutely true. The other way to look at it is that, our choice is ours. We get to choose and we might not like the consequences. We don't always have control over the consequences. I think when we don't have control over the consequences, that's when the mind wants to say, "Oh, somebody has power over me." But there's nobody on this planet that isn't dependent on somebody else or something else.Take the most powerful person in the world, if people stop buying their product or if people rebel against them or if the price of oil goes to $20 a barrel and all of a sudden, their money to control their society goes away. Everybody has something like that. It's something that I think about oftentimes when I'm thinking about CEOs and my experience in working with them is that they have more bosses than anybody. They have their key employees who they need to keep happy, their customers they need to keep happy, their shareholders they need to keep happy. They have Board of Directors they need to keep happy. There are so many people who they are dependent on or they need their approval or they need them to buy into their vision in some way. There's nobody in this system that isn't dependent on other people. There's nobody in this system that isn't scared to change the system because of consequences. As one person is sitting there and saying, "Hey, if I stand up for myself, I'll lose my job." There's a CEO that says, "Hey, if I don't give my quarterly numbers, I'll lose my job. If I don't get to the quarterly numbers, I'll lose my job." There's a billionaire that's like, "Wow, if I don't keep on finding more oil, I'm going to lose my fortune." There's something everywhere, everybody's got something. In that aspect, absolutely, everybody has somebody who has power over them. I think we often think about the people who diversified, like lots of customers or lots of people as more powerful, meaning that they're not dependent on one person. They're not dependent on one customer. They feel more powerful on our system but, everybody's dependent.Brett: It sounds like what you're pointing at in terms of power, when something has power over us, it's setting the constraints of our environment. If we have power over someone else, we have the power to set the constraints for the system in some way, but that doesn't tell the whole story. There's what we do within the constraints and which constraints we buy into or don't.Joe: That's it. Inside of the constraints, you're completely empowered. The way that you show up inside the constraints, the constraints have to adjust. Meaning, if you are scared of losing your job and you say, "Forget it, I'm going to show up the way that feels right for me and if I get fired, I get fired." You will change the system. There's no way for it not to change, even if you get fired. There's no way for the system not to change. There's no way that the way you interact with the system doesn't affect it.Brett: Even the structure of a company or even the interpersonal relations in your team will change if you're not being the same cog in the ecosystem that was existing before.Joe: That's right. You see this. Working with CEOs and working with billionaires, you see this all the time, that there's a whole bunch of things that they want to affect change on that they can't. They don't know how to or that nobody knows how to or it's just beyond their control. It's not like anybody in any situation doesn't have something that they're not able to affect the change on. There're billionaires that I know that if they could control everything, they would have more billions and there're billionaires I know, that if they could control everything, everybody would have social and economic equality but they can't, just like we can't, you can't, I can't, nobody can. As long as you need to control a situation to feel empowered, then you are subjugated.Brett: That's not real empowerment.Joe: That's right.Brett: Where does this come from? Where does this yearning for power arise from if not empowerment?Joe: Fear. If we're making the distinction between power and empowered and I think that even in our language, oftentimes, when someone says, "I feel powerful," they mean empowered. As far as the semantics we're going to use, that means empowered. Then some people are like, "I feel powerful, meaning I have control over you." People who want to feel powerful control over situations just fear. They are scared. On some level, we all are scared when we are looking to find power. Now, power might come to us and just because I have power doesn't mean I'm scared, but if I'm looking for it, then I'm scared.Brett: How does achieving some sense of power actually satiate or affect that fear, or does it?Joe: It doesn't. It's like any addiction. There's a short-term high that you get and then it's over. I remember when I was in one of my poorest times in my life when I had the least amount of resources and my attitude towards money and power was changing. I was driving in my car and I was thinking, "Oh, I don't have enough." As it turned out at that time, I knew several billionaires and I went through the list and I'm like, "Oh, they're driving around right now thinking they don't have enough either." Like, "Oh my God, I'm a billionaire." My situation, their situation is no different. They can affect some change in a way that I can't, but I can affect some change in the way that they can't.Brett: I could imagine a situation where a billionaire even feels more powerless, because they realize they have all this money and they're actually not able to change the world. So they don't get to believe that money would solve that problem for them.Joe: That's right. That's the thing is, one of the best investors I ever met said that if you see somebody who thinks that money is going to solve their problems, don't invest. They're dead right. Capitalization doesn't solve problems. It makes them bigger often.Brett: You throw money at problems and you end up with bigger problems that require money to sustain.Joe: Yes, that's right. It's like this illusion, once you have the power, then you got to worry about holding on to it. Another billionaire guy told me at one point, he said, “Everybody works, Joe. Everybody works.” If you have a billion dollars, you got to work to maintain it. Everybody works.Brett: If you're going for social capital, you have the billion dollars. You still have to work to maintain social capital and connections.Joe: Yes, or you've got $54 billion and you can't affect an election. One guy with maybe a billion dollars can beat another guy with 54 billion. Both of them can be beaten with somebody with less than a million. Power isn't accumulated by more power. It makes it easier in some forms of power, but sometimes having large amounts of power actually make it harder to accumulate power.Brett: In the current election cycle, trying to get elected as a billionaire takes you down a whole bunch of notches already.Joe: Right, or being a really big shot investor with a lot of power. On some level, there's some benefits to it and on other levels, a lot of people follow you, which creates complications as far as liquidity and other things. It's the same thing with somebody who has the power of leadership in a small community. On one level, there's certain things that they can affect change around that other people can't and in another level, there are certain things they can't.There's a certain balance that is struck in any leadership position and some things can be taken away from you more readily and some things you can't affect change on. It's something that I realized when I was in Boards of Directors. Sometimes in certain Boards of Directors, I had more power being off the board than I did being on the board. Being on the board, I was part of the dynamic and I couldn't help the leadership see through the dynamic. My capacity to help people see through the dynamic was more powerful than having a vote.Brett: Everything unseen and behind the curtain kind of thing.Joe: The way that I define power is, that power is the thing that can be taken away from you. Empowerment can't be taken away from you. Power is control over other people and empowered means that you're not looking for control of others. You're just being you despite the consequences. Power is looking to find safety. It's an expression of fear. Empowered is standing in the face of that fear and being truthful to yourself.If you think about every story that we've ever heard, it's always the story of the person who goes against the consequences for their truth. This is what we long for in ourselves is that, “I'm going to be empowered in a way that I will do the right thing despite the consequences whether I'm saving somebody from a burning building or whether I'm risking my job to be authentic.” That's what empowered is.Brett: Yes, burning building was a good example because, running into a burning building to save somebody, the fire has power over you. There's nothing anybody's going to do to change that, but you are going into the burning building to do your truth, to try to save somebody regardless of the consequences. You're willing to experience and feel the consequences of coming up against something with much greater power than you.Joe: Yes, that's right. There's the material power, like money or gun or fire and then there's also just the power of influence over you or other people. What I noticed is that when people act empowered, eight times out of 10, maybe seven times out of 10, the consequence that they're scared of doesn't come to pass. Even though the moment before they take that action, they're pretty sure it's inevitable. If I'm saying I'm going to be true to my wife even though I might lose her, eight times out of 10, I'm not going to lose her. If I'm saying I'm going to be true to myself even if I might get fired, eight out of 10 times, I don't get fired.If you're actually going into a burning building, I don't know what the odds are. It is not something that I have enough experience with. I will say, the other part of that is that even when you act empowered and things don't go the way you want them to go, they end up going the way you want them to go eventually. Meaning, yes, maybe your wife leaves you but eventually, you get in a relationship that works for you. Meaning that as you act empowered, as you act in your truth, the world that can handle your truth surrounds you and that becomes your reality bubble. We're all in these echo chambers. If I believe one political thing, I'm going to be in an echo chamber of verification of that. If I believe something else, I'll be in an echo chamber that verifies that. It's how our consciousness works and if we're true to ourselves, we end up in an echo chamber that is true to ourselves.Brett: It seems there's a difference between the actual constraints that our environment places on us and then the predictive constraints that we are simulating, that we are actually acting on, which are not exactly the real constraints of the environment. If we start operating in a way that doesn't fit the constraints of our immediate environment, we may end up losing a partnership, we may end up losing a job. If we stick with operating as though the world had the constraints that we want, eventually, we will only end up fitting into a system that fits those constraints.Joe: That's right. You see this in great leadership. I would say that one of the ways that you know that you're empowered is that you're acting in a way as if your reality is already true, that your vision is already true. If you're a civil rights leader, you're acting as if you are already equal and free. You're being that example for everybody to follow and you're assuming that everybody will treat you that way. It starts bending the world into that way of treating you. If you feel like you're less than, then your civil rights movement by its nature will have more friction in it. More people will treat you as you're less than.It's the same with anything-- if you're acting as a leader of a CEO and you're like, “Of course, we're going to be successful,” and you're acting like you're successful. When you're in the negotiations, you're acting like you're successful, then the world wants to bend towards that. It doesn't mean it bends towards it all the time, but it wants to bend towards that. That's what being a visionary is and that is, if you're empowered, then that visionary nature starts becoming more and more obvious to you. It just becomes something that starts happening.Brett: That brings up an interesting subtlety, the idea of acting as though you're already successful. It seems like there could be ways of performing success that are not beneficial, but the actual belief that you are successful. How would you distinguish between those two things?Joe: The way I would distinguish between those two things is, that there's a great story. It was an admiral in the Navy who got into a POW camp in Vietnam and he was asked who made it, who didn't make it? He said, “Well, who didn't make it was easy. That was the optimist.” The interviewer is like, “What do you mean optimist?” He said, “It means that they thought they were going to get out by Christmas or by the next season or whatever it was. They didn't make it, because when that came, that timetable came and left, they became defeated and they didn't make it.” He said, “Well, who did make it?” He said, “Well, that's clear, it's the people who thought that they would get out. The people who maintained that vision of their own freedom.”Brett: In that sense, if we find ourselves performing successfulness and then, signs of failure come, then that can just completely break down and we'll actually just believe our failure and that'll be the end, whereas realizing that this business can entirely fail and I still feel empowered as the person who can be successful.Joe: Correct and will be. It might be the next business. You see this all the time when people are transforming. When they're changing, they have this massive breakthrough and then they go, “Oh!” then, they feel disempowered because of the power of the pattern and they're like, "How do I keep it? How do I keep this breakthrough?" As soon as you see that, as soon as you see somebody start wrestling with how do I keep it, you know that it's going to be in flux. You know that it's going to pendulate back and forth for a while.But when the person sees it so clearly that they're like, "Of course, this is what's happening," then it's over. Even if it comes back a little bit, it's over. The whole process is quicker. If somebody has been getting angry a ton in their world and then all of a sudden they have this breakthrough of like, "Oh my gosh, it's not that I'm angry. It's that I'm hurt." They start crying and they see this new reality. They're like, "Yes." Of course, they don't need to hold on to it. Then you know that that change is going to be smooth and quick. If they are like, "Oh my God, I see it. How do I keep it?" Then you know that they're not fully empowered.Brett: That's a belief that's fragile then and that they don't really have it.Joe: Exactly. In that belief system, they still feel like this thing has power over them, this influence. What's interesting is, of course, it has power over you, of course and it's exactly that that you need to enter into. It's exactly that helplessness that helps us become empowered. What I mean by that specifically, because that can be incredibly confusing is, that going through the feeling of helplessness is what creates, oftentimes, that sense of empowerment.Brett: Yes, that's important, because what you were just saying earlier is that the power itself or the seeking of power as a deep expression of fear and it seems like that would be the fear of feeling the helplessness, the fear of being helpless. If you just move through that helplessness, then you end up on the other side feeling empowered.Joe: That's it. You just said it better than I could.Brett: Is there anything else you want to add to the definition of empowered?Joe: Yes. Empowered really is a feeling. It's a state. It's not a life condition. Meaning, you can be a billionaire and feel empowered and you can be in poverty and feel empowered. It's not really about how many resources you have. It's about your resourcefulness. It's knowing that you have the courage to do what's true for you. The other thing about empoweredness is that you can't really love without it. If you look at all the people who we see as beacons of love, there is a deep sense of empowerment to them. If you close your eyes and you go inside and you feel what it is to be unconditionally loving and then you feel what it is to be unconditionally empowered, you'll notice that they're two sides of the same mountain and you can't get to the peak without both sides of the mountain.Brett: I'm curious about what some of the different ways are that we allow ourselves to have power taking over us. What are some of the types of power? There can be economic power, there could be emotional power. I think a lot of this could allude to the victim-savior-bully stuff that we've discussed in some of the other episodes.Joe: When we're in fear, which is often when we're seeking power over another person, we're often in a victim, savior or a bully role. That is a good sign that you're in the power over. You can have power over somebody by being a bully. That role we know really well. Our society agrees with that one. They're like, "Oh yes, that person's a bully. They want power over." But you can get power over people as a victim too. I was watching a television show about magic and for whatever reason, they had this group of moms and they were all talking about guilt. They were all laughing and smiling over how guilt was a good way to control their kids. It's like, "Right, that is how people can control through the victim." Like, I'm so fragile that you can't tell me your truth. If there is somebody in your life that you can't tell your truth to because you're scared of hurting them, then you're being somebody who's controlling through victimhood. It's the same way with a savior. You can control people by saving them. You see this in very wealthy families all the time. They maintain control over their children by making sure that their money is there to save them. Or the Al-Anon saving the alcoholic. It happens all the time. There's all sorts of ways in which we are trying to have power over people. They mostly fit in the three categories, which is victim, savior and bully.Brett: The example with the rich people with the money doing the savior thing, I think there's many ways that that could apply to philanthropy as well.Joe: Yes, absolutely.Brett: Philanthropy can be done in a way that is entirely disempowering and that it can be done in a way that is empowering and I think a lot of that would come from the mindset of the people involved on all sides of it in the system.Joe: That's right. When I did a lot of philanthropy with schools and with kids, I would stay away from working with anybody who was coming from a place of guilt, that they were doing it because they felt guilty because their philanthropy just didn't work. If they were trying to help people, I would also stay away from it. If they were working with people so that both they and the people they were there to serve were being helped, then those were effective.Brett: What's an example of how that would work? Philanthropy failing, because it came from a place of guilt.Joe: I was in Nicaragua at one point and there was a group of Canadians there that had brought a whole bunch of clothing for this village. They all felt really great about themselves. When I asked them why they did it, they were all like, "Oh, I just feel bad that we have so much and I want to spread it." There's nothing wrong with it, but it just isn't successful. I remember sitting with them and saying, "Hey, there's all these turtles here that are going extinct." All these people could be saving the turtles. What if they earned their clothing by helping the turtles? How does that change this whole system?What it does change is, it makes people have an equal exchange and so they feel empowered. If somebody's just giving them stuff without an exchange, then it's actually quite disempowering because now you have power over them because they need you to give them stuff. In the '70s in Africa, you saw where food drops would happen. Then when the people who had the walkie talkies that helped the food drops happen went away, the native people tried to build fake walkie talkies and act like the person with the walkie talkies to get the food to drop.It's like you're not teaching that person how to fish. You're giving them fish. When people act out of guilt, that's usually how it works, because they feel like they have to give. Good philanthropy is an exchange. It's not a gift. It's a recognition that you're getting as much from it as you're giving.Brett: That segues to another interesting thing from earlier in the conversation about your empowerment is something that you have to give up. You choose to give up your empowerment. Let's talk a little more about that.Joe: There's a choice that you make and every time that you feel like you've been disempowered or that someone has power over you and you can't be true to yourself, then what's actually happening is that you are choosing to avoid a potential bad consequence. That's a choice that you're making. You have to choose that for it to be the case. Mandela had everything taken from him except his life. He was crushing rocks. He was beaten. It was not pretty for him and yet he stayed empowered. He continued to make choices and knew the choices that he was making despite the consequences.Brett: How does that work in daily life? Like with a job or perhaps with a receiver of philanthropy, trying to become empowered, but finding that the moment they become empowered, they stop receiving gifts and so, it's easier not to.Joe: Yes, it's really true. It's harder to raise money for something that's deeply empowered too, it's interesting that way. But then again, the people who truly feel empowered don't need to raise as much money. They have other ways of making things happen. Yes, it's a good question. How does it happen in daily life? One of the ways that I work with my clients on this often that makes it really acute is-- and I mentioned it a bit in the beginning, but I'll use a different example. It's like a husband that's deeply unhappy in his marriage. I'll ask the question, what if you act exactly how you want to act and see if they leave you, see if the divorce occurs. That's an empowered act. It's like, "Oh, I'm not going to compromise my authenticity, my truth to keep your love. I'm not going to compromise my authenticity and my truth to keep the job. I'm not going to compromise my authenticity and my truth to avoid the conflict and that's when people feel disempowered is, when they don't make that choice. That's when people complain about somebody having power over them.Brett: Right? Like believing that we're not going to be able to find another job, if we leave this job or believing we're never going to find another partner, if things don't work out with this one and we don't conform to this structure we're in.Joe: Yes. Then that becomes pretty obvious pretty quickly when you're dealing with one-on-one relationships, but then when it comes to being in a company or being in a country or being part of a geopolitical system, it becomes a little bit harder to see, because the change that you're creating is just less palpable. It's because it's a numbers game and so it becomes harder for people to see in that way.But that's an intellectual thing. On an emotional and a gut level, you feel it right away, you know it right away when you are acting empowered in those situations, say, "Oh, I'm going to be this way," and I see it all the time. It's like if you look at the people who are breaking the social norms in a way that is liberating for them, that are the front runners or the trailblazers, if you look at those folks, they are the ones who are not buying into the consequences.Brett: It's contagious then like, if you're looking for a social change, it requires empowerment on a population level. It might feel from a disempowered place that if you're the only person who becomes empowered, you're just going to get steamrolled by the system. Yet, you look at examples like MLK and it's, one person was empowered enough to have like a halo around them, creating more empowerment.Joe: Yes and he died. Right. There was somebody who had a gun and that's real power and it affected change. He had real power and it affected change. Both of the men who shot and the man who got shot in this particular case, both affected massive change in the world. The difference between the two is one felt empowered and one felt disempowered. The change that we affect when we feel disempowered usually doesn't serve ourselves or humanity.Brett: Yes, that reminds me of the archetype of the rebel, somebody who feeling what they think is power, ends up destroying their life and others in the name of their truth. Whoever shot MLK felt like they were following their truth and you see this all the time. Let's talk about that.Joe: Yes. It's really hard to see the difference sometimes, especially when you're in the middle of it and it's subtle until you see it and when you see it, it's clear. If you are in blame for another person or shame for yourself, then you are disempowered and you are trying to accumulate power. If you are not in blame or for others or shame for yourself, then that is empowered. That's the emotional way to know where you're at.Brett: Or guilt I guess, guilt and shame can be distinguished as well a little bit.Joe: Yes, guilt and shame. We'll put them together. Those are such-- semantically, that's a very interesting thing and it's very culturally based, but yes, guilt, shame, blame, all that stuff is a good indicator that you're disempowered.Brett: Earlier we were talking about the drama triangle with the bully and the victim and the savior and how that's based in fear. Can you relate that to blame and shame?Joe: Yes, so oftentimes, that fear is based on the sense of helplessness. That sense of helplessness is because we believe the story of blame and shame in our head. When you feel like someone else's making your life X, Y and Z way, then you're in blame and there's a helplessness and there's a fear that you will lose complete control and therefore, you need to have control over. Or, there's a shame, like, “I'm inherently bad.” There's no way out of that. It's a deep feeling of helplessness and we're scared of feeling that helplessness, so we then move into the drama triangle or the fear triangle. That's how it works. It's that helplessness is the feeling of that blame and shame felt all the way through, that we don't want to feel. That's the amazing thing about feeling helplessness. Feeling helplessness doesn't make you more helpless. Feeling helpless makes you more capable. It's so counterintuitive, but if you do it, you know it, right, because so much of our decision-making process is based on trying to avoid an emotional state. The emotional state of helplessness is one of the ones underlying most of our avoidance.Brett: What are some of the indicators for each of these particular roles? If all of them are fear state being set into place with blame and shame and we need to feel helplessness to get through them, what are some of the indicators for some of these particular roles of victim, bully and savior?Joe: The reason I don't call the drama triangle very often and I'm more prone to call it the fear triangle is because, the victim, bully and savior correspond with fight, flight or freeze, which are the states of fear. Fight is pretty obviously bully. Right? It's like, when I'm scared, I fight. When I'm scared, I freeze, that's more victim. When I'm scared, I fly, that's savior and that's the harder one to understand. But what happens is, I run away from myself in my own experience and I try to fix you, so that I can feel safe. If I can make it so you don't get drunk, I'll feel safe. If I can make it, that you're happy, then I'll feel safe.I'm running away from myself going into you to try to fix my issues and so, that's why I call it the fear triangle. There's a feeling for each one of them, right? It's kind of the indicator. The indicator is, if I am feeling all alone in it, that's the bully. If I feel obligation, that's the savior and if I feel stuck, that's the victim. In actuality, we'll feel all three of these things if you really slow it down for a minute and you'll notice that you'll feel all three of these things in a moment of fear. My wife comes home, she's in a horrible mood and I feel helpless that now my mood is going to be screwed up and the house is going to be screwed up and the kids are going to be screwed like, “I can't do anything.” I might feel alone, like, "Oh, God, I can't. I'm the only one who has to fix this thing." Then I feel, "Oh my God, I got to do something for her so that she feels better and then I'm stuck with this thing." It's like all three of them can happen slowly or quickly. But there's one that usually we dominate in situations that are dominating us in situations. Most people tend towards fight, flight or freeze most of the time.Brett: Yes, I personally tend towards the savior.Joe: Yes, I have tended towards both savior and bully. Those are the two places I'll go depending on the circumstance. Yes and often in quick succession.Brett: Let's talk a little bit more about how this works in companies and in teams.Joe: It works in a number of ways. The first is, you see this happening all the time in companies and teams, that somebody is acting like the victim or some group is acting like the victim. Some are acting as the savior. There's different ways that they're trying to create control. The less empowered the team feels, the more drama and that's a great-- as soon as you walk into a team, if it's super political, it's just like everybody feels disempowered. You just know it. Where everybody feels empowered and they feel like they can affect change, there's so little politics that are going on. It's a great litmus test.Brett: Right, because politics is a control mechanism.Joe: Correct. Yes, it's that fear. Drama. That's the thing that you see in politics everywhere. I don't mean politics as in people running countries. I mean politics. It might be people running countries.Brett: People being political. Joe: Being political, right. It's a deep expression of fear and people trying to capture power. Exactly. It's because everybody feels helpless and feels like they're not actually able to affect change in a way that's meaningful.Brett: How do you affect this kind of change in a company, whether you're leading the company or you're within the company or at the bottom of some ladder?Joe: Yes. Well, this is the tricky bit, because as a leader of a company, you want your people to be empowered. You also, often out of fear, want to limit their capacity to affect change. I don't want the new mail clerk to decide what my initial public offering price is going to be. It's this constant balance of people feeling empowered. You wanting people to feel empowered and at the same time, a fear of having that power runaway or this lack of control. This is the balance and the subtle war that's happening oftentimes with leaders.You'll hear it all the time because they'll say something like, "I wish everybody would act like the owner of the company." They mean that to a point, meaning they want everyone to take responsibility like that, but they don't want everybody to have all the benefits and they don't want everybody to have all the choice that they have. There's this very interesting balance that happens. What's happening in those companies is that the empowerment and the roles have gotten confused.If everybody can feel empowered in their role and their role is defined and how decisions are made is defined, then people feeling deeply empowered is incredibly good for a company. As soon as those roles aren't defined well, as soon as people don't know what they have to do to be successful, then a whole bunch of empowered people just creates a lot of mess. Brett: It sounds like there's a bit of a paradox here, where having well-defined roles and well-defined processes is structure and that could be something that people feel has power over them. Then also what you want is them to feel empowered to push back and change that structure or work fully within the structure and also perhaps challenge it. If you don't have structure like clear goals, criteria for success, loving accountability, transparency, then what happens there? There's a powerlessness in having no structure.Joe: That's right. Yes, if there's no way to affect change or make decisions, then what you'll have is this crazy politics with people trying to get power so that they can feel safe. Yes, you want to have some sort of structure that allows itself to change and a structure that doesn't change without very specific things happening, so that people can feel safe that they know what to do, that they know what success means. This doesn't matter if it's AA or Enron. In AA, there's a very particular structure that has to happen. There's 12 steps. There's the way that the meetings get run and that structure happens. It's important or people can't feel safe in those environments. In Uber, there's very particular structures in place. There's, "I'm going to rate you five stars or not," and there's another structure of making sure that drivers don't rip other people off by tracking them on maps. Those structures are really incredibly critical or people don't feel safe. Will those structures need to change over time? Absolutely. But, you need the structure for people to feel safe and know what their roles are. Then you need to be able to make room for people to grow and change their roles. The Constitution of the United States does a pretty good job of it, too.Brett: Yes, sets a structure. Joe: Yes. That's the balance that you're constantly looking for is, “How I create the amount of structure that makes people feel safe but also gives them autonomy and gives them the capacity to feel as empowered as possible.” Brett: Includes mechanisms for that structure itself to be updated to match reality.Joe: Absolutely. Right, that's it. That's how looking at company-- and what you see typically is, the more transparency and the less structure that creates safety, the more elegant the structure is that creates safety, then the more successful the company. Taxi cabs becoming Uber is an example of this, less structure, less infrastructure, but it creates actually more safety. It's the same thing that happened with GM and Toyota. Toyota became more decentralized than GM, which was at the time, the most centralized company. That decentralization, but still maintaining the structure, is what usually gives those companies a competitive advantage. The reason is, because it creates more empowerment with the employees.Brett: It seems like this would also promote scalability for a company, because if you have 100 empowered decision-makers instead of three, then more decisions can be made and more information can be processed.Joe: That's exactly right. Yes. You saw that there was a-- I can't remember, it was one of the Malcolm Gladwell books talked about, how in this war game that the Pentagon does, this small band of people beat the US Army, because their decision-making was happening at the bottom. There was some set of principles, some set of structure that they could all operate within. That's basically how you do it. It was in David and Goliath, was I think his book. You see that all the time and you see it in business books as well, like Reinventing Organizations, where the same principle is there. Brett: Yes, another war game example, just war example, would be when Rommel first encountered US troops in Northern Africa. He was like, "Oh, these guys are totally green and completely disorganized. It'll be a cinch." Then, not long after, he was writing letters back to Germany like, "Wait, don't underestimate these people. You can cut off an entire unit from their command and somehow, they'll still figure out how to fight."Joe: But this isn't just an external thing. This is an internal thing as well. When you become more empowered, you start operating on a set of principles and that set of principles, you're going to operate on whether it's comfortable or not. If I have a principle that basically says, "I am not going to work with assholes," and somebody says, "Here's a billion dollars to work with an asshole," I'm going to say, "No." It's a set of principles. I'm not going to operate any differently than that. If I have a set of principles and it's like, I'm going to be transparent with people and tell them my truth despite the consequences, that's my set of principles. I'm going to do it no matter what. That's when all the drama in me starts disappearing. That's when I feel empowered is, I've given myself a structure that it doesn't change very readily. It takes some time to change that set of principles, but I'm going to operate in that way no matter what. That helps me feel deeply empowered, which is strange. It's like a set of criteria that I live by that actually makes me feel empowered.Brett: Yes, as though this entire process of inquiry into values is to create a more and more consolidated, elegant structure by which we live our lives, so that we don't have to think about the complicated consequences and how the consequences are going to play out of, “What if I say this to my boss? Or speak my truth here or leave this job?” It's just, this is simply how I want to live and I'll accept the consequences if that's what it takes.Joe: That's exactly right. Yes, that set of principles is what frees us. If you look around at the people who you just saw like, “Holy crap, they didn't have resources, but they were empowered and they changed the world.” That's something else they all have in common. They were living by a set of principles internally and externally. Not perfectly, obviously. We're humans. We are not made perfect, but it's generally how one lives their life. When you see somebody who's living by a set of principles, you'll also notice that they never are blaming other folks. They're never worried about somebody's power over them. They're addressing it. Brett: That also will affect your opportunities as well. When I'm hiring, I'm much more interested in the resourcefulness and the ownership, the self-ownership of the person rather than the skills listed on their resume. People really detect that in any counterpart that they might work with.Joe: That's right, I'd rather pick the right mentality than the right skillset, for sure. I obviously like to pick both when I can, but yes, that's right. This is what happens internally, like I said, as well as externally, the drama internally goes away when we feel empowered internally, when we don't feel that we will make the choice even if it's uncomfortable. Even if I have to feel helpless, I'm going to make that choice. Even if I have to-- I'm not going to have power over somebody else or try to have power over myself. I will rather feel the discomfort of the fear and the helplessness. I'll rather enter into the shame. I would rather allow my own destruction as far as the destruction of my identity, my identity as one who's put upon or my identity as one who's valuable. I'd rather allow that to be destroyed, rather than move into fear and act from fear and try to have control over somebody. It's an internal and an external thing. When you figure it out internally, you have no choice but to act externally. If you feel like you are subjugated by something externally, then you also feel like you're subjugated by something internally.Brett: That sounds like a great point to wrap this up on. Thank you very much, Joe.Joe: Yes. Pleasure, Brett. Thank you very much.Thanks for listening to The Art of Accomplishment podcast. If you enjoyed what you heard today, please subscribe. We would love your feedback, so feel free to send us questions and comments. To reach us, join our newsletter, learn more about VIEW, or to take a course, visit: artofaccomplishment.comResources:Frederic Laloux, Reinventing Organizations, https://www.reinventingorganizations.com/Malcolm Gladwell, David and Goliath: Underdogs, Misfits and the Art of Battling Giants
We often try to figure out solutions to our problems intellectually. But modern neuroscience tells us that, if you removed the emotional centers of your brain, you would be unable to make even the simplest decision regardless of how much intellect you had. What if there were emotional practices you could do to clarify every decision? What if emotions were the key to finding whole new kinds of solutions?"The reason that somebody gets angry at somebody else is because they haven't gotten angry by themselves. It takes a while to build that kind of anger, so go release your anger and then talk to the person. Go get really, really scared and then talk to your boss about the raise that you want. You have the emotional experience and then go and take the action."Brett: Joe, many of us are taught to manage our feelings and to be logical, especially when it comes to important or complex matters. What makes feelings so important?Joe: That is a great question. I think it was a 2012 book called Descartes' Error, a neuroscientists talks about what happens to people if they lose the emotional center of their brain. It's a little more complex than this, but just to simplify it, if I took the emotional center of your brain out, you would cease to make decisions. It would take you half an hour to decide what color pen to use. It would take you four hours to decide where to have lunch. Your IQ would maintain the same. In fact, in the book, there's somebody whose IQ remains the same, very high level IQ, so incredibly intelligent, but their business falls apart. Their marriage falls apart. Everything falls apart because they can't make decisions. What it indicates to us is that we are thinking we're making rational decisions, but there's really no such thing. There's only emotional decisions. You can think about this in terms of your own life. Really simply, just think about how many decisions of your life were made because you didn't want to feel like a failure or how many decisions were made so that you could feel loved. How many decisions were made so that you could feel like you were seen by your friends and how many decisions were made so that you wouldn't be rejected?It's like tremendous amounts, huge swaths of our decision making, you can immediately see, are very emotional. The intellect is really good at trying to figure out how to get to an end, but the end that you're trying to get to is always an emotional end. Clarity doesn't come from being logical, because it doesn't work. You can't do it in your decision making. It comes from being okay with whatever emotional state arises.If you all of a sudden are completely excited to deal with sadness and you're completely excited to deal with joy and you're completely excited to deal with anger. It's not even deal with it, it's like you get to live that, then all of a sudden, you have incredibly clear decision making. That's why it's important. If you're in those thoughts that are recursive and they're just coming in over and over and over and over again, guaranteed there's an emotional reality, that if you felt it, it would clear up.Brett: Can you give me an example of what you're talking about?Joe: Yes, absolutely. For instance, I work with a lot of married couples and what happens in a lot of marriages is that people stop being true to themselves because they're scared of some result that'll happen if they do and eventually the marriage becomes not palatable because they're not themselves in the marriage. What I tell people in that situation is, hey, go mourn the heck out of your marriage. Your marriage is over. Just assume it and go more in the heck out of it, like feel all the grief of being left, feel all the grief of 20 years down the tubes, feel all the grief that your kids are going to not have two parents, like go through all of that stuff. At the end of that, then let's find out what you need to do. What they do is they're basically living through the result that they don't want to feel so that they can act with clarity. It's that feeling of loss that they don't want to deal with and since they don't want to deal with it, they're not speaking their truth and therefore, they're not in a marriage that accepts their truth. Eighty percent of the time, they then speak their truth and the other person is like, great. Or they're like, what the hell and then three months later, they're like, great. Twenty percent of the time their partners, like, no, that's not what I want.They leave and they break up, but it's definitely a much higher chance of success, if somebody has already felt the thing they're trying to avoid because then their actions don't come from trying to avoid the feeling, their actions come from what they want. This is something that you learn in even like The Tibetan Book of Living and Dying, the samurai did this, I think it was the Sufis who did this-- many traditions have done this thing, where they basically visualize their own death to get over the fear of death. They've lived that fear so many times that they no longer fear death. It's confronting the emotional reality that you don't want to handle, that you don't want to feel and then immediately your decision making can clear up.Brett: Recognizing that there is life on the other side of that emotion.Joe: Yes, exactly, or that emotion is a deep friend. There's no emotion I've run into that hasn't been a benefit to me.Brett: What do you mean by feeling these emotions? If something hasn't happened yet, for example, how do you actually feel the emotion associated with it to mourn the loss?Joe: The first thing you need to do is just recognize that there's always an emotional movement in your body, it is constant. There's no moment of consciousness where there isn't an emotional reality happening. We might not want to admit it. We might've been taught at a young age not to feel it, but it's constantly occurring and it's very muscular in nature. You can really feel it through constriction of muscles.If somebody has been told never to get angry, their body contorts. I can literally look at somebody and recognize if there's repressed anger. You can recognize and I'm not the only one there's tons of people who can. You can recognize who had the critical parent, who was beaten, who's holding back their authenticity all based on muscular structure. The muscles and the emotions are tightly, tightly correlated. That's the most important thing to know that it's constantly happening and that there's a muscular component to it. How do you feel these emotions? You're feeling them. The question isn't how do you, the question is how do you bring your awareness into it? Oftentimes what happens is we're feeling the emotion, but we're spending a lot of energy compressing that emotion. It's making it a different version of itself.The way I think about this is like, there's this emotionless called the emotion of anger and it's flowing like a garden hose. If you kink it one way, the anger looks like this, “No, I'm not angry.” If you kink another way, it looks like this, “That's fine”. If you're going to be a prick and if you kink another way, it sounds like this, “You son of blah, blah, blah, you goddamn blah, blah, blah.”All of those are kinks in the garden hose. When there's no kinks in that garden house, when it's fully allowed, there's no reason to resist the anger. It sounds like the anger of a Gandhi or Martin Luther King. It's clear. It's determined. We will not put up with this. We will be equal. That's also anger, but that's anger unresisted. The trick isn't to feel it in the way that it's like, you have to go and conjure it because it's there. It's really to stop restricting it. It's really to stop holding it down.Brett: It sounds like one of the things you were saying is that the first thing that people might feel is actually the resistance to the anger. This body tension, for example, might be the first thing you notice and be like, oh, I'm feeling a lot of tension in my body right now. Then maybe the secondary thing you might feel is like, I'm holding back this emotion.Joe: Right. It's the resistance that's actually painful. When people are like, “I don't want to feel sadness.” There's this way in which people talk about each of the emotions and there's this common fear of each of them to let them fully ride. If I allow my anger, I will destroy people. I will hurt myself. I will hurt others. If I allow my sadness, it will go on forever and I will be enveloped in sadness for the rest of my life. If I allow fear, I will be frozen and I won't be able to act. These are the traditional thought processes that people have about why these emotions aren't safe. The reason that they feel that way is because that's how the resistance is, when you're resisting anger, you do destroy shit. When you are resisting sadness, it does last forever. It looks like depression. When you're resisting fear, then you're anxious all the time and you are frozen. You're not doing stuff. People have confused the resistance with the emotion.Brett: Or with the feeling of being overtaken by the feelings.Joe: Exactly. You never are overtaken by the feelings, you're overtaken by the resistance to the feelings. If you're scared of an emotion, you are currently being overtaken by the resistance of the feeling.Brett: Right. Because the resistance is itself a feeling. It's like a secondary feeling that loops back and then fights the first feeling, which is just a massive waste of energy.Joe: Correct. It's really important to recognize that it is a waste of energy. It's also really important to recognize that in itself, it also isn't bad and it is there to be loved. I have a saying that says, “If you can't love the emotion, love the resistance to the emotion.” If you make the resistance the next evil thing that you have to overcome, that's another form of resistance. You are just adding a triple layer of resistance on it.Brett: Well, what about the danger of, if you have, for example, you have anger and it's deeply resisted and you remove the first layer of resistance and you start to let the anger through, but there's still enough resistance around it, that it comes out as an attack. It can be dangerous to be overtaken by-- to let ourselves be partially overtaken by a feeling and still have it constricted in that way, right?Joe: Yes, it absolutely can. You're playing a short game and a long game here. The short game is how do I start getting in touch with these emotions in a way that isn't destructive. Then there's a long game, which is, “If I don't do it now, then what am I going to do? Continue to constrict it for the rest of my life?” Like there's a risk involved. You have to risk a little destruction now to get to a place where the anger is clear and moves easily and is fluid and enjoyable.There's some tricks to it. The first trick is don't believe the emotion. Don't not believe it either. It's like when you're having the emotion, the important thing is to see yourself as an actor playing the part of you having an emotional experience. An actor always knows it's not their emotion. Even if they get caught up in it for a while, they know there's some part of their consciousness that knows that the story is a story. It's not true.It's about keeping that aspect of your awareness awake, so that you just know like, oh, this emotion is just moving through me. It's not personal. But it's also allowing that emotional experience in and that requires letting the emotion be garbly. Intellect speaks like this. It's like A plus B equals C and B equals D, therefore, A plus D equals C. That's how logic talks. The way anger talks is “ [makes sounds]...Oh, right. That's it. I got it.” That's how anger speaks.If you believe all the garbly gobbly glue of anger, like, “That person's an asshole and that person did this to me, blah, blah, blah, blah”, then you're never going to get to that clarity. If you don't allow all that garbly glue, you also won't get to the clarity. It's this interesting thing of listening to emotions in a different way than you listen to logic. If you start repressing it and say, “Well, I know it's really not them. It's really me. I know that they're trying their best”, or blah, blah, blah, all that kind of stuff doesn't allow the full expression of the emotion so you don't get to the clarity.The trick is, not to listen to the story, to see it as non-personal, to see yourself as an actor, just having it move through. It's like going to the bathroom. It's not a personal thing. It's just happening. Then the last part is to just not do it at anybody. This is the most critical thing is, don't do it at people. Most people think of anger like, don't get angry at the person. I'm speaking to that, but I'm also speaking to sadness. People get sad at people all the time, to try to create manipulation or guilt or whatever it is. I'm going to get sad at you, to make it so that you change your thing. You're never using your emotions to try to get someone else to change.Brett: Or afraid at people.Joe: Yes, exactly.Brett: This isn't safe.Joe: That's exactly it.Brett: You were speaking to feeling these emotions coming up within us and then viewing it as we are an actor, acting out the emotion that's coming up within us. It sounded like that could apply also interpersonally. Or if our partner is coming at us with a lot of anger, recognizing like, oh, they are playing the part of their anger right now and I don't need to take everything they say personally. I could actually hold space for this to occur so that they can find their clarity behind it.Joe: Absolutely. That's a lot easier if you are good with your anger. If you're like, “I love my anger. I can't wait for my anger to arise because every time it does, I find out some boundary that I haven't been drawing. I find out some way I haven't been being clear. I love my anger.” Then you see somebody else get angry. You're like, “Oh, I love that too.”When somebody sees you love their anger, man, that anger changes, they're like-- it happens with me and people are like, “Goddamnit, Joe, you da, da, da”, I'm like, “Oh yes, you're angry, come on. Tell me about it.” I want to hear this. I see that you feel alone and I see that you feel rejected and I don't want that. Let me hear what's going on with you. That changes their anger. It just changes it.Brett: You were speaking to the short and the long game that's being played. I think a lot of fear of letting our emotions fly is that we'll become worthless or unproductive or just the last straw will happen if we're deep in a relationship. We're just like, “Oh, man, one more outburst, then they're just done with me. I've got to suppress this.” What happens if we just let our emotions fly all the time?Joe: Again, just not at people, to put your emotion at somebody, to try to get them to change with your emotions subconsciously or consciously, it's emotional abuse. It's not healthy for them. If it's happening to you, draw a boundary and say, “I don't want that. I'm happy to listen to your emotions if I give you permission, but otherwise, I don't want the emotion at me.”I just say, don't do that without permission. If you are getting your emotions out by yourself or with a close friend and you're doing it, then they're not going to leak. The reason that somebody gets angry at somebody else's because they haven't gotten angry by themselves. It takes them a while to build that anger. There's lots of time before that, so you can release it. Go release your anger and then talk to the person. Go mourn and then talk to your wife about what you need from the relationship. Go get really, really scared and then talk to your boss about the raise that you want. Do the thing that you have the emotional experience and then go take the action.Brett: Just feel it. How do you recognize, in the moment, when you're in this like a spin cycle and you're like, “Oh God, this da, da, da,...This person did this or whatever? What should I do here? I don't know what to do!” How do you recognize that? What's the hook to get you out of that loop to remember this and to get into the emotions.Joe: Exactly what you said. If you are doing one of three things, you mentioned two of them. If you notice that you keep on looping on the same thought, it means there's an emotion that you're not feeling. If you are not clear about a decision you need to make, then there's emotion you're not feeling. If you are judgmental towards another person, there's an emotion you're not feeling.Brett: Can you dig into that one a little bit more?Joe: If I judge you for being angry, I don't want to feel out of control. Or if I judge you for being angry, it's because I don't want to feel the potential that I have to lose you, so loss. If I judge you for being uptight, it's because I don't want to feel controlled, or I don't want to feel rigid. Every time we have a judgement, it's just a way to suppress an emotion, which is what makes our decision making really screwed up because if you're judging, very different than discernment. Discernment is just a knowing of distinction. If it's judgment, then you're not clear. You're not looking at the data clearly. You have preconceived notions of the data and then you can't make great decisions.Brett: Or preconceived notions of intent on behalf of the other.Joe: Correct. That's right. Then the last one, another cool trick is, whenever you see your mind in binary thinking, "I either have to buy the car or not buy the car." Instead of, "I could buy that car. I could buy that car from 10 different people. I could buy that car with different packages. I can buy that car in different colors. I could buy that car in six months." Whenever you're in that binary black or white thinking, then you know that there's some fear there that's not being felt.Brett: Let's get into a little bit deeper. We've been talking a lot about the feeling side of this, what do you mean by figuring it out? What are some other ways that that can happen and that we can get caught in that loop?Joe: Figuring it out at its most essential is just your intellect. It's to strategize. It's to try to solve the puzzle. It's like, "This is the outcome that I want, how do I get there?" That is the intellect and it is really good at that. That's what it means when you're figuring, when you're intellectualizing. Some people say it's in your head. Some people call it being tactical and there's some really great uses for that. It's not a bad thing. It's just a lot better when you're not avoiding an emotion using it.Brett: It sounds like the purpose of the intellect here is to take a very narrowly framed context of assumptions and goals and then figure out the path from A to B, but then the emotions are what is creating those assumptions to begin with and the goals.Joe: Correct and the risk profile.Brett: Elaborate on that.Joe: If you really, really, really don't want to lose your girlfriend, then your risk tolerance is really low. If you're like, "I could do it under certain circumstances." Then you're more likely to be yourself, right? How madly you don't want to feel the emotion really affects your risk profile.Brett: Yes, that makes sense. We should figure some things out. Wouldn't it be silly to just shut that part of us off and never use that part of our intelligence?Joe: Absolutely. I wouldn't want to build a bridge without the intellect. I wouldn't want to have this conversation without the intellect. I would assume that would be horrible to listen to. Intellect is a beautiful, amazing thing. It's just recognizing its incompleteness. There's Girdle's theory of mathematical incompleteness, which is basically a logical proof that all sets of logic are either incomplete or they are based on a postulate. Basically it proves logic can't be logical. Brett: My favorite part of that is that he proved it with logic. He actually used logic to prove the incompleteness of logic and it couldn't have been done without logic.Joe: Right. Aristotle did it earlier in a different thing, but he didn't do it with the same logic without the math. It's a beautiful thing and our postulates are emotions. That's what our postulates are in our logical way of thinking. That's why people can logically justify absolute opposite things. It's not because their rationale is good or bad. It's because they have different postulates behind the rationale.Figuring stuff out is great and the intellect is beautiful. Even in the spiritual journey or the transformative journey, the intellect is beautiful. It's great for deconstructing itself, very good at hanging out in a way that allows you to describe what's happened. Usually after you've gone through it, right? What I notice is that it's not like, "Here's the description of it and now I go through it."It's more like "Here's a description of it that can give me some framework that I can rest on that I don't completely understand." Then I go through it. Then maybe like a month later, I can describe it. The intellect is really good for that as well. I love the intellect. I love watching great minds at work.Brett: At the same time, it can become the trap again too. You can have this major emotional movement or transformative experience or whatnot and then your intellect will step in and be like, "Okay, so what actually happened? Let me make sense of that." Like, "This was the childhood thing that happened to me and then that was what I felt in this meeting and then all that interacts and then this way." Then like, "Cool, now I have a model for understanding myself." Then once again, you've created this limited system that may be more useful than the previous one but then eventually will reach its limits of understanding and prediction.Joe: That's right. My words for that are every epiphany is the innocent beginning of a rut. Every epiphany-- it's so important to have these epiphanies, but what's really important about them is that it blows everything up. Then we reconstruct it and then a new constraint is found and we need to have that new epiphany to deconstruct or to destroy the old epiphany and the old rut. That's how transformation works. That's how evolution works. It's a beautiful thing and yes, there comes a point in this development where you can see that every single thought that you have is both true and not true. There comes a point in development where you can't believe any one of your thoughts.If you have emotional clarity when that development point hits, you become incredibly clear. If you don't have emotional clarity, you can use that same beauty of seeing both sides of every coin as a way to become indecisive, as a way to beat yourself up, as a way to limit yourself, as a way to continue to constrict emotions. Logic is a beautiful thing. It's just really important to know what it's good at and what it's not good at.Brett: Right. Now, what we've been talking about has been very much about the personal development journey, but I think we could actually apply this very easily to business, for example, product iterations. Every epiphany from your product research or your market research to come up with a new direction could easily become the new rut that you find yourself spending six months in $1 million investing in.Joe: Right. Or a government that had a great epiphany about a police force and then now that police force epiphany is a rut, that needs to be recreated and a new epiphany for is an example, right? There's a thousand examples of how the solution of yesterday is the rut of today. We villainize it and we make it bad, instead of just being like, "We need a new iteration. That's it."Brett: Okay, maybe we don't need one president with a lot of power.Joe: Right. Or maybe we need a financial democracy instead of a voting democracy. Thousands of new epiphanies.Brett: Somebody argued we already have that and it's a bad thing.Joe: Right, exactly. That's another one, right? It's like every one of our epiphanies, everything that locks us down was an epiphany at one point, was somebody's realization at one point.The CEO of Netflix, in his first business, he claims that he made everything idiot proof and then only idiots would come and work for him. In Netflix, he keeps a certain amount of chaos, a certain amount of creativity, a certain amount of risk involved, so that people who want smart challenges, people who want to be cutting edge, who want to have more freedom, show up and work for him. That's more important than having things idiot proof for him. It's that same thought process of, what's more important is, that we're constantly iterating that we are seeing through the logic that we used and relied on.Brett: That's a great example of how a leader's personal journey can then show up in their company, because for a CEO to get to the point where they can just say, “Hey, you know what? Let's just let some chaos happen.” They have to learn to feel that loss of control and welcome it.Joe: This is everything, right? Let me give a really sharp example. Almost every high powered CEO I know has an issue of, A, feeling alone and B, having this deep feeling of self-reliance that they need to rely on themselves. At the bottom of that emotional slide is this deep sense of helplessness that they didn't want to feel. You don't learn to be self-reliant unless there was a point when you had this deep sense of helplessness that you didn't want to feel.Maybe it was an alcoholic dad or maybe it was getting really poor, or whatever it was. That sense of helplessness and saying, I am not going to feel that again is what propels them into this incredible place in their life. It's also the thing that needs to be destroyed if they're going to be great leaders. They need to feel that helplessness, they need to go into that complete helplessness. I don't think it's any mistake that the CEO of Netflix had to go through the helplessness of losing a company to get to the place of allowing that feeling of helplessness all the time, because somewhere in that journey, he found out that that helplessness was just a feeling and it had an incredible intelligence behind it. It was trying to tell him something and it no longer needed to be avoided. It needed to be looked for and to be excited when it shows up.Brett: What's an example of that happening in your life?Joe: [laughs] I have children. Having children is like getting a deep tissue massage. If you resist, you are screwed, right? You have to constantly feel your own helplessness in your children. As an example of that, you have to feel that helplessness. For me, I think the first journey of it was abandonment. It was feeling emotionally abandoned. I was recreating that experience over and over again until I felt it, which is a really important part of this emotional journey. I'll use that as an example, I felt, for whatever reason in my childhood, emotionally abandoned and I didn't want to feel it. I created a whole world to not feel that, but in the way I created that whole world, like everybody, I reintroduced it over and over and over again. This is why we all have that friend who's been dating the same person six times in a row. It's not the same person as in-- it's like the same person in a different body with a different background, but wow. You just picked seven different men who all cheated on you. How did you ever do that? Right? I recreated people who would emotionally abandon me over and over again until I fell in love with the abandonment.Once I fell in love with it, my system didn't need to recreate it. I had found homeostasis. If there's an emotion that I wasn't allowed to feel, I recreate that feeling over and over again, until I fully allow that feeling and then I don't need to recreate it. The other way to say this is the things that we are most scared of are the things that we're subtly inviting into our life. If we're most scared of feeling helpless, we will invite helplessness unconsciously into our life so that we have that opportunity too.Brett: I've got a great example for that, growing up, I always felt I was being tightly controlled by school and society. That control made me feel helpless and I just didn't want to feel helpless anymore. I developed exactly what you described, that self-reliance complex and that self-reliance complex then made me feel like I had to be in control of everything that I was doing and made it difficult sometimes to cooperate or collaborate on something that I wasn't going to have the full reins over, which wouldn't often lead me to feel alone and helpless.Joe: That's right. That's exactly, beautiful. That's exactly how it works. Then once we're cool helplessness, then all of a sudden, we don't recreate the conditions, because our body has just found that homeostasis. It's like, okay, I'm back to balance.Brett: I think addiction has a lot to do with that as well, that feeling of avoiding helplessness, feeling like you can control something. For example, a gambling addiction, a lot of what I've heard about slot machine addiction is, it's not necessarily that those addicted think that they're going to be winning any money. They know they're not. They know the math. They're not stupid, but the feeling of just hitting the buttons and experiencing the spin occur, they're just in a very tight loop system, where the rules are almost like they're designed to look like they're almost figure outable, but they're not.Joe: I think there's definitely a lot of emotional avoidance in addiction. Oftentimes it's shame. I've heard a saying that says shame is the locks of the chains of bad habits. Shame seems to be a big part of an addiction cycle and there's others as well, but definitely, there's a big emotional component to addiction cycles. There's also some physical and neurological components as well, but emotional avoidance is a huge part of it. If you could just lift the shame out of people, then most of the addictions would fall away.Brett: As we move through our lives and start feeling more and more of these emotions that we've been repressing, what does that development look like?Joe: Emotional development looks pretty clearly the same way for different people, but the starting points are different. The earliest starting point that you can get to is just recognizing the emotions you have. It's just knowing that you are constantly in an emotional state as long as you're conscious. People think, some of them, especially if there's been more emotional abuse or emotional repression in the home, will have a very specific experience of not being able to feel their emotions.This is similar to somebody who's been physically abused. If you have been physically abused and I put a quarter in your hand or a key in your hand, you won't actually know which one you're holding, because you've learned to cut off your sensations of your body. Emotionally, you might also have learned how to cut off this sensation. The first thing is to feel that sensation and that is just to identify that the emotional experience is happening at every given moment, because the way that we feel right now is slightly different than the way we feel right now, which is slightly different than the way we feel right now.Identifying those emotions is a really good thing and it's a great epiphany. It will also become a rut later on, but it's a really great first stage. Then the second stage is an expression of that emotion. To really allow those emotions to be expressed through the body, through words, in a way that is not at anybody. It's just having that full expression of emotion.Then that moves into an emotional inquiry, which is how does it feel in your body? What color is it and where is it in my body and how dense is it? It's a literal-- what is the physicality of my emotions? Having a deep inquiry into that and then also having a deep inquiry of when I relate to my emotions differently, how do they work? When I'm angry at my emotions, what does that do? When I'm in love with my emotions, what does that do? When I am trying to get rid of my emotions, what does that do? When I am tickling my emotions, what does that do?You're literally playing with different relationships you can have with your emotions. Then there comes this place where you're just deeply in love with your emotions and then emotions become very fluid. It becomes just like this beautiful flow of life. It's so exciting and so pleasurable to feel your emotional fluidity. It allows for just very crisp decision-making and it allows for very decisive action to have that emotional flow.To give you a great example of this epiphany rut thing, I did not have a lot of emotional awareness when I started this work at all in my 20's and I got into this point where I realized, “Oh, I'm having emotions.” One day, I don't know, a decade later, or something I was saying to somebody, I'm like, “I'm feeling angry right now”. They said, “No, you're not.” I said, “Excuse me?” The person replied, “You're naming an emotion, so you don't have to feel it.” They were so right. I was like, son of a gun. Shit, I've named it so I don't have to feel it. The thing that was once freeing, to be able to see it and name it, had become the new constraint. Then I realized, oh, the feeling of it is a completely different thing. When you feel the emotion, it's all about letting the body just move. It's like dancing without being self-conscious. It's just your emotions know how to move your body. Your emotions know what to do. If they don't fake it and they'll figure it out. Don't judge them. Don't tell them how they're supposed to look. That's not crying. That's not fear. So many people who aren't good at crying when I see them cry for the first time, they think they're like that can't be real tears because it doesn't feel like that one time I cried, but there's 20 different ways of crying. You can cry of joy, you can cry of sadness, you can cry of grief, you can cry in a way like when you're yawning. There's so many different ways that sadness expresses and it's not your job to judge them. It's your job to just watch it like you would watch the Grand Canyon.Brett: Right. It seems each stage here is a meta awareness, a new level of meta awareness around our emotions. The first level being, just recognizing that there is emotions here and that we are not just a logical machine figuring things out and that there is always an emotional context that exists for us. Then we get deeper into that and we start to be in the emotional context, not just recognizing that one's there, but we flow in it and with it.Then another level seems to be the meta awareness around the emotion being wow, okay, as I'm letting this anger move through me, I'm actually clarifying my boundary. Or as I'm letting the sadness move through me, I'm grieving the loss of something tangible, or even just an idea. That this whole process of letting these emotions move through us is actually changing the assumptions, goals and the context and the risk profile of all of our future logical thoughts.Joe: Exactly. We are limited. Everybody talks about limited thoughts but in reality, the limited thoughts have a deep correlation with the way we limit our emotional reality.Brett: It's almost as though the thoughts are just the tip of the emotional iceberg. They are actually a part of the emotions. They are emotions that are most finally, the part of the emotion that is working in the finest detail.Joe: It depends on the perspective, which is the tip of the iceberg and which is the underside of the iceberg. What I do know is that they are in an intricate dance and when one side isn't working, the other side definitely helps.Brett: It sounds like what you've been saying all along is that the intellect is very useful and we do want to use it to figure stuff out, but first we want to get our emotional context right and allow our emotions to shift us into the place that is most aligned with our reality in our moment. Then in that space, figure stuff out.Joe: I wouldn't use the word right, but generally, directionally, that feels very right. [laughs] I would say it's when your emotions are blocked or when you're trying to deeply avoid an emotion, then your decision making can't be clear. It's just as simple as that. Feel the emotion whenever you can. That allows for clarity and it doesn't need to be any more complicated than that and see it as a process that maybe at the beginning, when you realize that you're not clear on something and there's emotion involved, it's going to take a while to get through it.Pretty soon as you get older in the journey, then the emotions flow so quickly. The recognition of it can just make the whole thing really, really clear, really quick. It's common for me on a daily basis to have a cry or shake or get angry. It's relieving of stress. It changes my neurochemistry. It clarifies my decision. It doesn't take but five minutes and it's just moves.Brett: It's almost like you could do a daily, emotional yoga.Joe: Indeed. I did for years. Indeed. I don't think I ever did it daily, but maybe like five times a week, I would take 20 to 30 minutes to do literally emotional yoga, where I would feel everything that I was not feeling and teach my body how to feel it and how to accept it and how to unlock. Because as the emotions start to be felt, then the musculature unlocks and then you can feel it deeper.Brett: Your cortisol levels will shift and your metabolism will update and start releasing an amount of energy into your body that is appropriate for the moment.Joe: That's right. The other thing to know is that each of these emotional streams that I talked about, like anger-- so there's anger that's constricted is constricted in a lot of ways and the unrestricted anger is that clarity and determination. The unrestricted sadness is a deep joy and the unconstricted fear is excitement, right? There's a saying that says, excitement is fear with the breath, or fear is excitement without the breath. It's from an acting school. Each of these things, when they're not resisted, become something very, very different.Brett: Right. Grief is a celebration of what you've had.Joe: Absolutely. Grief is this anger, sadness, fear altogether wrapped up in one. The feelings of these things coming through you when they're unresisted change deeply. You don't even-- can't even recognize them and they start blending all into one emotional state. It's like one stream that's happening. Brett: This all seems to really tie into something that we were working on a lot in your courses, which is this phenomenon where we can understand something intellectually, something about our story or about our traumas, or somebody could be listening to this podcast and understand it intellectually. We can still not get it all the way until we've had the emotional movement to consolidate it.Joe: This is really something that happens in coaching all the time. You get somebody who intellectually understands that, yes, okay. My boss is managing me and I'm angry, but I intellectually really, really understand that they're trying to get me to do my best work, but I'm feeling it as criticism. Intellectually, they understand that their boss wants the best for them, but emotionally it's just criticism. It's just what dad was doing, when the person I'm coaching was 13 or whatever it is. Then once they get it emotionally, when they grok it in their whole body, then all of a sudden it's like, thanks so much for the feedback. I appreciate it. I really appreciate you wanting me to do my best work here. It's on so many levels. It's even grokking complex ideas in your body completely, which has an emotional component to it.If somebody sees, here's this really complex marketing thought process and they don't fully understand it. They can intellectually get it, but it's not second nature. It's not just what they do. It means that there's some emotional component of that marketing. Some thing like, “Oh my God, I'm going to be asking people for stuff.” Or, “Oh my God, marketing is bad and dirty.” There's some emotional component of it that when that emotional component is fully felt, then it's understood. It might not be used. It might be used, but it can't even be fully understood until that emotional component has been felt.Brett: Until your emotions align with it. It reminds me of Einstein where for him, the theory of relativity was a spiritual experience to be working in. Many scientists, prominent scientists have said similar things. Simon, for example.Joe: Absolutely. You cannot have certain ideas without certain emotional clarity. You cannot have certain ideas or certain epiphanies without an experiential understanding of what's going on. You can't do the theory of relativity until you see through your own limited perception of time that society has taught you.Brett: Right. Or even your senses, your physical body has taught you.Joe: That's right.Brett: Right. How do we then stop resisting these emotions? What are some takeaways from all of this, that are some concrete practices? Joe: First of all, if you are resisting emotions and you try to stop, that's more resistance as we've already talked about. Love the resistance, that's the most important thing. Fake it till you make it. My personal story was I looked in a photo album when I was, I don't know what I was, like 20 something years old. I saw a picture of me crying and I realized that my parents were uncomfortable with the emotions I was having, because they were taught to be uncomfortable with their own emotions.One of the ways to make sure that I didn't make everybody uncomfortable was to tease me around my emotions. At one point, they took a picture of me and then they put it in the photo album. I found this picture. It was a picture of me crying. This picture you could see me crying and you could see me dumbfounded that I was having a picture taken of me. I was like, it's probably why I haven't cried in 14 years. I put a picture of it on my desk and I was okay, I'm going to learn how to cry but a year later, I hadn't cried. Then I was okay, I'm determined. I need to go and really give this thing a go and cry. I went out into the woods. I went to a faraway trail. Then I went off trail for three miles so that nobody could see me cry. I had that much shame around it. Then I would just fake crying. I did that for three months. I would just fake it. Then all of a sudden, it just happened. It started happening for real.When it happened, it was such a relief that I'd let it happen for four days. I could have stopped it, but I was crying when I was brushing my teeth. It's like my body was just like years of tension just evaporating in days. Then all of a sudden, I had a deeper access to my tears and then that led to deeper and deeper access to my tears. Then that led to, oh, every single heartbreak of mine increases my capacity to love. I cannot wait for more heartbreak. Even just saying that, just that in itself makes me want to cry, how blessed I am for loving heartbreak and for seeing how much freedom to love that gives me. Brett: That's beautiful. This has been a great episode. Thank you very much, Joe. We'll catch you again next week.Joe: Yes, man. What a pleasure to be with you.Thanks for listening to The Art of Accomplishment podcast. If you enjoyed what you heard today, please subscribe. We would love your feedback, so feel free to send us questions and comments. To reach us, join our newsletter, learn more about VIEW, or to take a course, visit: artofaccomplishment.comResources: Antonio Damasio, Descartes' Error: Emotion, Reason and the Human Brain, https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/297609/descartes-error-by-antonio-damasio/Sogyal Rinpoche, The Tibetan Book of Living and Dying, https://sogyalrinpoche.org/about-sogyal-rinpoche/tibetan-book-of-living-and-dying
On this episode, I have the privilege to have a conversation with John Lee Dumas, the founder and podcast host of Entrepreneurs On Fire. We talked a little about his journey in creating one of the top entrepreneurial podcasts in the world and then we dove head first into his latest book "The Common Path To Uncommon Success" due on on March 23rd, 2021. It was great to learn from JLD and what he teaches with his Podcasters' Paradise community as well. He has a wealth of knowledge in the all-audio format of podcasting and it's nice to hear how it all began and what's in store for the future. Enjoy this conversation with John Lee Dumas. Joe John Lee Dumas: John Lee Dumas Founder and Host of the award-winning podcast, Entrepreneurs on Fire Website: https://www.eofire.com/ **New Book** - "The Common Path To Uncommon Success" swiy.io/eof (Free courses for Entrepreneurs) swiy.io/freepodcastcourse (Free Podcast Course) swiy.io/eofsubscribe (Subscribe to Entrepreneurs on ) Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/johnleedumas/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/johnleedumas1 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/eofire/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/johnleedumas Email: Team@EOFire.com Podcast Music By: Andy Galore, Album: "Out and About", Song: "Chicken & Scotch" 2014 Andy's Links: http://andygalore.com/ https://www.facebook.com/andygalorebass If you enjoy the podcast, would you please consider leaving a short review on Apple Podcasts/iTunes? It takes less than 60 seconds, and it really makes a difference in helping to convince hard-to-get guests. For show notes and past guests, please visit: https://joecostelloglobal.libsyn.com Subscribe, Rate & Review: I would love if you could subscribe to the podcast and leave an honest rating & review. This will encourage other people to listen and allow us to grow as a community. The bigger we get as a community, the bigger the impact we can have on the world. Sign up for Joe's email newsletter at: https://joecostelloglobal.com/#signup For transcripts of episodes, go to: https://joecostelloglobal.lybsyn.com Follow Joe: https://linktr.ee/joecostello Transcript Joe: Ok, I want to welcome my guest today, Mr. John Lee Domus, I have been so excited to have this interview with him and as you will find out, he is the king of podcasting and many other businesses. And I'm almost a year away from my anniversary starting this podcast. My first episode was April 2nd. So nothing could be more fitting than to have this amazing person on the podcast. John, welcome man. JLD: Joe, thank you for the kind of words, brother. It is much appreciated. I'm excited to be here and congrats on a year. Joe: Thank you. I had a little a little lull, we went on a twenty eight day trip and so I couldn't record during that period of time, but JLD: Now, say, Joe: I'm back JLD: If you my if you are my mentee, we would have had you all booked our brother, Joe: The. JLD: You would have done all your episodes done beforehand, they would have been scheduled to go out on cue. You never would have missed a release date. Joe: The other day, I was listening how you say you actually do all of yours in one day, right? So you're done for the week, JLD: One day, Joe: One JLD: One Joe: Day. JLD: Day, batch go all in, crush it and you know, we go on seventy five to 90 day world trips every single year. So on those, you know I'll do like a month of just batch recording so that when I'm gone it's all scheduled. Joe: We're really going to talk about the release of the book, because I'm super excited for my copy, because I preordered I listen to your interview with Hal Elrod. And so I was in the gym. I had my Apple Watch on. I was listening to the podcast and I said, oh, man, he's got a book, OK? JLD: Yeah. Joe: So I rushed home preordered, looking forward to all the other stuff and the bonuses. But if you don't mind, can I ask you some questions first and then we can the rest of the time we can talk about what the book's about and all of that other stuff. JLD: Absolutely, man value first. Joe: Beautiful. OK, so first of all, I wanted to thank you for your service. I know you are a tank commander, 13 months as a tank commander and eight years in the army. JLD: Yeah, eight years in the Army, you know, a few years as a tank commander, but specifically during my 13 month tour of duty in Iraq, I was a tank commander in charge of four tank 16 men. So that was some pretty intense time, I can tell you. Joe: Yeah, it sounds crazy, so thank you for that. It was really unique to listen to the story of how you became who you are today, and it was the whole driving in the car you ran out of podcast. It was it's just an epic story. And and the part about it for me is how did you choose when when we talk about creating a podcast and being very focused on what you or your avatar is and what your audience is. How did you end up choosing giving to the the world of entrepreneurs when in fact, at that time you were you were actually working for the math? Right. JLD: So for me, it was all about, listen, I know from reading the business books, that's on the average of the five people I spend the most time with. And I looked around at that time in my life and I said, my five socks, like they're not evil people, but they're Don Doolittle's there, Debbie Downers. They're just not trying to motivate and inspire anybody. They're just kind of on this kind of miserable trajectory life. And I said, that's my average. That's who I am, too, was on the average of these people. So how do I fix that? And that's when I discovered podcasting and listening to podcasts and surrounding myself with the right people. Even if I was just a listener, just like you at the gym listening to those earbuds, Hal and myself, we were part of your five that day, brother. Did you spend some quality time with us and your average went up as a result? Because obviously he was a fantastic individual and I try pretty hard, too. And that was happening to me as a listener of podcasts. And I said, well, how can I take you to the next level and be the host that's asking those questions like that could be cool. And I would maybe even be getting closer to these people that I admire so much by by having one on one conversations with them. And it was a fantastic journey. I was such a bad podcast. And when I started, I'm sure you can go back to episode one of yourself and be like, oh, I've I've definitely improved since then because that's what we do. Shockingly, we get a little bit better when we actually start doing the thing over and over again. Know not all of us take twenty eight days off to going on vacation, but even when you do, you consider a little bit better stuff. And that was my journey man. Now is we're talking three thousand episodes, over one hundred million listeners, over one point four million monthly listeners of the podcast and just getting started. Joe: It's incredible, and so when you first started, how did you record your interviews, because now we've obviously gotten to the world of Zoom and some people are using the video portion like I am, to also put some YouTube channel for there are some people that just won't listen to podcast. Right. So there's both audience. But what did you how did you do it when you first started? I'm just wondering what went through the process of thinking about all of this. JLD: So I recorded Episode one the exact same way I recorded Episode Three Thousand and one, you give me your Skype I.D. We jump on Skype audio only and we record the interview. That's how I've done every single episode, audio only Skype to Skype making it happen. So, listen, we're all creatures of habits. Skype works for me. I've always used that. Joe: All right, well, cool. You're not interested in doing video and then repurposing it for you to can be just strictly podcast. JLD: Focused, maybe follow Joe: Yeah, JLD: One course until success. I know what I do best Joe: Yeah. JLD: In that audio only interviews and that's how that's how I roll. Joe: Let's take me, for example, I love what you do and I, I am struggling with when I started this podcast, I didn't know what it was going to be. And I own the entertainment booking agency. I went to music school. That's my was my life. And I didn't want that to be what my podcast was about because I've been an entrepreneur since the early well, I would say the early 90s. I like being around these type of people, you being Groseclose, Tony Robbins. All right. So my my focus is definitely going in the direction of being an entrepreneur and having those people. Is it too crowded of a podcast market to be another person interviewing entrepreneurs? JLD: One hundred percent, yes, it Joe: Ok. JLD: Truly is one hundred percent. Listen, I run Podcasters Paradise, I interview the world's most successful entrepreneurs for my podcast, Entrepreneurs on Fire. But my course, my community podcast is Paradise is all about people that join every single day. They're joining from somewhere around the world with a goal of launching their podcast, to create their podcast, to launch our podcast, to grow and to monetize. And the very first thing I tell every single one of them is, why would you want to launch a week pale imitation of somebody else's podcast that's already out there in the world's when you could instead look in the mirror and say, I've lived a life, what unique skill sets do I have? What real value can I provide to the world? And then when you can answer this question, Joe, this is your podcast, which is what is the one solution that I can provide to my audience? That is the number one solution in the world. If you could answer that question about something that you do or something that you're passionate about or something that fires you up and you can create the number one solution to a real problem in this world. That podcast will win when the one thousand and thirty fourth podcasts is launched that tries to copy entrepreneurs on fire or School of greatness or achieve your goal as podcasts. That podcast will loose because you're bringing nothing new to the world. Joe: Mm hmm. JLD: You're bringing no new value to the world. And frankly, your shows and I'm not talking specifically to you, Joe, I'm talking to the listeners who are looking to create their thing. That show is not going to be as good as the other ones I mentioned. So why would people listen to that show when they only have so much time in this world? So how can you be that individual that looks in the mirror and says, I can solve one problem better than anybody else? This is what I'm going all in on, because that's what the world wants. The world wants the best solution to a real problem, not the second best, not the tenth best, the best solution to a real problem. Those people win at a very high level. It's how it's step one of this book, by the way, which I know we're gonna get into more details later. But step one, I get you there. I tell you and I teach you and I show you how to get to your big idea, not somebody else's big idea, your big idea, the idea that's deep within you that you probably never even thought about or uncovered. But it's there. Let me help you get it there, because back in twenty twelve, Joe, my big idea was a podcast that would have failed. So I went down a niche into a business podcast that would have failed to. JLD: There's hundreds of those. I went down a third niche to a business podcast interviewing entrepreneurs. There were seven currently that we're doing that. Did I want to be the eighth best podcast interviewing entrepreneurs? Of course not. That would have failed even back in 2012 when there was just a handful of them. So I said, what can I be the best solution to a real problem? Well, what's the biggest problem that I find with these seven podcasts that are interviewing entrepreneurs? They all come out once a week. That's not enough content for me. I'm at the gym like Joe every single day. I am driving to work. I'm walking my dog. I need a fresh episode waiting for me every single day that doesn't exist in the business podcast world interviewing entrepreneurs. I'm going to become the first daily podcast interviewing entrepreneurs. So guess what, Joe? The day that I launch Entrepreneurs on Fire, it was the best daily podcast interviewing entrepreneurs. It was the worst daily podcast interviewing entrepreneurs. It was the only daily podcast interviewing entrepreneurs. But guess what? It was the best solution to a real problem. Those people like me, by the way, that needed more content, that needed a daily dose of inspiration. That's why I was on fire one. Joe: And it's funny because you chose the format of a half hour length and I would assume is because you were doing it every day, so it would be really hard to go into post-production and do all of that audio editing and everything else with it and have it be longer than a half hour. But then JLD: We Joe: You JLD: Are Joe: Stuck JLD: True, Joe: With JLD: And Joe: It. JLD: You actually kind of stumbled onto another truth is video is a whole nother layer. I mean, that's larger files, editing even harder. You've actually got to, like, sit here and, like, nod and smile when people are talking to you, which kind of seems funny. But, bro, it is massive bandwidth compared to like this video not being on right now and me being able to kind of like, listen to you. I'm still listening. Of course I'm interviewing you. But just like sip my coffee, kind of close my eyes, maybe rub my eyeballs a little bit, do some stretching back here, not have to try to make eye contact with you. And just nodding like this like you're having to do when I talk, like, that's all great videos. Got all of its pros, but doing a seven day week show of that, forget about it. That's Joe: Right, JLD: Why I do the audio. Joe: But you stuck with a half an hour since you started. Is it just who you are or is it the way you're wired that it did it come from your military training? You just have stuff. You picked a plan, you stuck with it. You stayed as a half an hour podcast this entire time. You never veered off and said, OK, now I'll do a one hour here and there. Every single one of yours is right on the money. It's like you cut it right off at 30 JLD: That's Joe: Minutes. JLD: Not true. If you go to my podcast feed right now, you will see that's, you know, some podcasts are 17 minutes, some are twenty three. You know, let's actually go live time right now. I'm going to go ahead and click on my podcast right now. Thirty three. Twenty five. Twenty seven. Twenty five. Twenty nine. Twenty eight. Twenty two. Thirty thirty seven. Forty twenty eight. Twenty three. Those are my last like fifteen episodes like I just read them off right there. That was right from my podcast feed. So for me I definitely use thirty minutes as a goal. You know, that's kind of what I kind of tell people, be honest about. Thirty minutes is kind of my response when people ask how long it's going to take. But I, I'm a big believer in every podcast should be as long as it should be and some of them should be twenty two minutes, some of them should be forty three minutes. And that's why you see those differing time frames, because I'm not actually trying to squeeze anything into a strict time frame. I have the approximate things that I know that works. And I really what I really do is have four to six bullet points. I want to get two for each interview and that's how it happens. It happens to be typically between 20 to 40 minutes is like the safe bet will be somewhere in that range, more likely than not within a twenty five to thirty five minute range. That's kind of the tighter range that we do have. So, you know, although we do have a lot of shows that are really close, that thirty minute mark, it's definitely not a Bible. Joe: Got it. So your new book, The Common Path to Uncommon Success on your website, I went through your big idea exercise, and it was funny because we were just talking about that in order to come up with the solution I can give to the world that makes me at the top podcast in that realm. And I, I went through it and I've gone through things like that before, but I struggled taking the left column and bringing the line over to the right column and making all of these things to come up with that idea, even though you gave time limits to it. I feel like I had to keep going back and doing it. And and I'm not sure that's the right way. But you say you go through that in the book, correct? JLD: Absolutely, it's a process, it is a system, and there are exercises behind it on how you can identify your big idea. So like you mentioned, we have timers, we have processes, there's areas that are being drawn. You're going to look down and be like, what have I just created down here? And you will get to your big idea for many of you for the first time in your life. Joe: Let's talk about the book and who it's for, what the end result of it is supposed to be for anyone that reads it when it's coming out. And I know there's a bunch of bonuses if they preorder. I just want to go through all of this and get the word out there. I'm super excited for my copy, JLD: Thanks, Joe. Joe: Like I said. JLD: No Joe: So JLD: One, I appreciate you preorder, thank you, because Joe: Absolutely. JLD: Preorders make or break book launches. So that's I'm very grateful for that. And what this book is to really answer your question is it is a combination of the three thousand plus interviews that I've now done over the past decade with the world's most successful launch, Nuers. And I've been a mentee to those three thousand mentors learning from every single one of them over these interviews, applying it to my business, which, by the way, is now a multimillion dollar business for eight years in a row. So I've applied a lot of those principles very successfully and I've been able to take those thousands and thousands of hours of conversations, boil them down and see what I've found are these 17 core foundational principles that every successful entrepreneur has in common. Seventeen I looked at and I said, that's a roadmap. This is a 17 step, step by step roadmap to financial freedom and fulfillment. This is the book I have to write. So I sat down over all of our little quarantining of twenty twenty and for eight months in a row, the first two hours of every day, I just wrote and wrote and wrote. And it turned out that in four hundred and eighty writing hours I was able to compile seventy one thousand words. Two hundred and seventy three pages of what comprise this book I'm holding in my hands right now. It is the common path to uncommon success. JLD: It is a 17 step roadmap to your financial freedom and fulfillment. So if that sounds like something that you want, if it sounds like this is a journey you want to embark upon, this is the process to do it. This book. Now, let me warn you, the road is hard. This is filled with exercises and there are examples. And there's a companion course that comes with this for free. But it's work like it is work. And it's hard because guess what? It is hard building a business that you love and that successful. It is hard to create content that you really know is meaningful content. It is hard sharing your voice, your message and your mission with the world. These things are hard, but you know, it's also hard. Broke living paycheck to paycheck, waking up every single day, not really excited about what lies ahead, like being miserable, that's hard to do and I've lived that life as well. So my call to action for people that are watching this right now is choose your heart. Like, which heart do you want to choose? Because it's both both paths so hard whether you take the common path to success and to get to that financial freedom and fulfillment, that's hard. It's also hard being broke and not being able to support your loved ones and and not living up to the dreams that you know, you have and you can achieve, but not doing it. JLD: That's hard to. So choose your hard and my recommendation, choose the common path, uncommon success. This book is going to get you there. And 17 steps. I've also compiled five amazing bonuses for those action takers who preorder the book. So before March. Twenty third, when the book goes live, I'm going to ship all three of my journals, The Freedom Mastery, the podcast journal. I'm going to ship to your door, literally. I'm shipping these to your door for free on my own dime. I am shipping you these three journals for free if you live in the United States. For those people outside, I'm going to email you the beautiful digital packs of all three of these journals. There's four other amazing bonuses and you can find those at Uncommon Success Book Dotcom. When you go there, you'll see endorsements from Gary Vaynerchuk, Seth Godin, Eric Armande, Dora Clark, Neil Patel. You will see the first chapter is there for free. You can read it and you can see like my writing style, there's a video of me jumping into the pool with all my clothes on, describing more details about the book. And again, you could see all five bonuses there. And then, of course, you can preorder uncommon success book. Dotcom Jobrani, thanks for having me on today. Joe: Yeah, man, this is awesome, I appreciate your time. I hope to have you back once I figure out what it is that I'm going to do and JLD: Your two year anniversary was due this. Joe: Ok, and hopefully I'll have this all aligned and everything, but. JLD: But listen, nothing you're doing is is without reason, I mean, every time you do this, you're getting better at your craft, you're improving your building connections, relationships, you're honing your skills. And so when that thing does come up, boom, you're off to the races. Joe: When we reconnect and we do this, that I can hold up the book and say this was my aha moment, this is what turned it around for me, this is what made me actually finally figure out what my big idea was. So that's really what I hope comes out of that for me. And I'm not a spring chicken, so I'm figuring this out sort of late, but JLD: That even Joe: I'm hoping JLD: Though I've got a little more hair than you, I'm not a spring chicken either. Well into my 40s. Joe: I hit 60 next year, so JLD: You look good, bro. Joe: So I'm in trouble if I don't get this going soon. So. Well, I really appreciate your time so much, and I wish you all the best with the book. And again, it's the common path to uncommon success. I'll have all the links in the show notes. We'll have all the links on the YouTube video when I put that out in a few days and I'll make sure I put it on social media. And I really do wish you the most success with this. JLD: Thanks, Joe. I hope you enjoyed this episode and I want to thank you for listening to my podcast. I know you have many options to listen to various podcasts, and I'm honored that you chose to listen to mine. I would love it if you were to rate my podcast Five Stars and write a nice review. It really helps to bring up the rankings of the podcast. Other listeners, once again, thank you so much for listening to the Joe Costello show. I appreciate you very much.
The problem with getting good at managing your life is that you end up with a life that has to be managed. What would happen if you found out that focusing on enjoying your life could make you more productive and happier than managing your life? We know most of the greats enjoyed what they did. What if enjoyment is an essential part of what makes us great?"Imagine that you are on a boat and you are going down a river. Management is when you are fighting against the river, but when you are in that effortless flow of the river, there's an enjoyment to it. What you have to do is, you have to be listening to that river deeply. You have to be listening to that impulse."We're told all of our lives that if we want results, we have to manage ourselves and the world around us in order to get what we want. What if that isn't true? What if intention and determination are critical, but managing life gets in the way? What if the way to get the life we want is to focus on enjoying our life, not only by doing what we enjoy, but also by learning to enjoy whatever is happening? This is what Joe and I will be getting into today.Brett: Joe, what makes this an important topic for you?Joe: There's a personal story behind it. When I was really young in my career, I did international stock lending for a while. I was still sorting through so much of my personal issues at the time. I decided in my head what I really wanted was to have a creative career. That was something that I decided, which was far out there that I had to attain, instead of realizing that it was really available, if I had the right perspective. I quit this great job as far as money goes and as far as career path goes. I went for seven years trying to have a creative career. There was this place where I had basically reached it. I was working on this TV show and I had written something. I was being brought in to train, to direct the show. I did this two-week stint on the show and I realized it was the same thing that international stock lending was, meaning that everything that I had run away from in international stock lending, I was running to in this creative career. One person had all the power. Everybody was working long, hard hours. They were unhappy. I remember the actor of the TV show saying to me, "Every time I come into work, it's like having a piece of my soul ripped out." Everybody wanted to be doing something else and not the thing that they were doing. They had some dream of the next level of their career. Most people weren't leaving because of the money. I said, wow, that's exactly the thing I was running away from and running to. I had spent all these years of my life trying to manage this outcome. I had finally achieved it, but I didn't have any idea that it wasn't the thing that I wanted. At that moment, the revelation came on me and I said, "Wow, you know what I'm going to do instead, what I'm going to do is I'm just going to say yes to whatever shows up. If I enjoy it, I'll keep on saying yes. If I don't enjoy it, I'll say no."Then all of a sudden, there was more and more stuff to say yes to and so I got to keep on picking the things that were more enjoyable. As that happened, everything took off; my money, my happiness, my career, everything in ways that I couldn't even have expected. It was like I had surrendered and I allowed that surrender into my own enjoyment to lead my life. All of a sudden, I was surrounded by a life that I enjoyed.I neither enjoyed stock lending, nor did I enjoy trying to become an artist nor did I enjoy being the artist, but I ended up enjoying my life, not by managing it, but by focusing on the enjoyment. That's why it's important to me. I think why it's important to talk about in general is, because it's the biggest misconception that a lot of people have is they think that if they're going to manage their life, they're going to end up with a life that makes them happy. In actuality, if you learn to manage your life, you end up with a life that you need to manage and that is not happiness.Brett: What does it mean to manage your life in the way that you're describing?Joe: One way to think about it is, intellectually, you're trying to assure an outcome. When I was directing films, one of the things that I really realized in that process was that, if I had a very specific outcome in mind of how the actors were going to do their thing, it was horrible. The result was horrible. Everything was horrible. The process was horrible. If instead, I gave the actor's direction and then I just waited until it felt right and I just allowed that impulse to carry us and go, "That's it. That's going to work," without the idea specifically of how it was going to be, the results were far better.That's one way to think about the difference between management and non-management is that you're not holding really specific future outcomes. You're holding the intention of the scene is going to be great and it's going to be emotional. You're holding the intention. The actors are holding the intention of whatever it is for them, getting the person to say they love them and getting out of the room, whatever their intentions are. Everybody's holding their intentions, but the outcome is something that you are recognizing when it's right. It's not something that you're being specific and controlling about.There's this implicit feeling of trying that happens when you are doing management and trying is very different than doing. Doing is just the action. It's like in mental waves, you think about doing as alpha. There's this flow state that happens and it's just everything's happening and there's not a lot of tension in it. Managing life is when you feel like you have to bring tension into the process to get it your way.Another great example of this, I think, that's really palpable is I see this with clients all the time is they're thinking about a big conversation they have to have. Maybe it's with their husband, maybe it's with their boss, maybe it's with a good friend. They're trying to figure out how they're going to say it in such a way that they're going to get the outcome that they want, instead of thinking about, what's the authentic way for them to say, what's their deepest truth that they're trying to share and let the chips fall where they may. If they're in the first, then they're in management and if they're in the second, then they are not in management.Brett: I think that film example is actually a great one, because in filmmaking, in production, you often have an art department that's trying to make exactly the igloo that's in the treatment for the director, when maybe they could make any number of igloos that fit the theme and that would work great in the scene. Many other parts of the scene are likely to drift through the course of production from the treatment. There are ways to flow with that and there are ways to try to manage every single detail, which you just ended up having the entire crew fighting reality for a while.Joe: It's something that I've realized. When I'm running businesses and I want something a specific way where it's creative or someone's doing something creative, like copy editing or some visual aspect or building slides, I've realized that if I just give them three adjectives, just I want it to be reliable, grounded and empowering, then the results are far better than if I start thinking I know how to design something. I'm like, well, it should be a little more blue and turn this a little bit this way. That broad stroke thing. We know that people in general, in the management of people, respond a lot better and are a lot more motivated, if they feel like they have autonomy. That doesn't mean that they don't want direction. It means they don't want management in the way that I'm talking about management.Brett: Right. I see that a lot in design as well. Micromanagement of design is a great way to get terrible work from a good artist.Joe: Exactly. That's everything. There's a way of looking at every person's role as an artistry. You're going to get bad work out of everybody's artistry in that. The other way to look at it is to imagine that you're on a boat and you are going down a river. Management is when you're fighting against the river. When you are in the flow of the river, even if your paddle's in the water every once in a while and you're doing that stuff, but when you're in that effortless flow of the river, there's an enjoyment to it and there's a non-management. When you're fighting against the river, then you're in the management.For that to happen, you have to not be managing a river, which obviously never really works. What you have to do is, you have to be listening to that river deeply. You have to be listening to that impulse. When people are in management mode, they usually are not listening to their internal impulse, or the impulse of the people around them.Brett: It sounds like a distinction to be made here is, management is to try to fight reality to conform to your results and enjoyment in this concept is more combining your intention with the randomness of reality and seeing what happens.Joe: Yes, that's right. I work with a lot of executives and this is one of the hardest things for the executives to really catch on to because they have all made a living in being able to have this determination and drive to get the results. Many of them have used management to get there. That determination and drive, that utter unacceptance of a result that's different than the one that you want, is really critical, but you need to be very general about the result that you want. It can be general like I want a company that's super successful. I want a product that sells better than all the competition. That's great.When you start managing that process and want it to be this specific way. You want it to have this kind of sales technique. You want to have, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, then that's when it goes south. You have to keep all that determination. You have to keep all that fortitude. You have to keep all that utter unacceptance of a reality that you don't envision and there is also reading the river and letting the river flow and paying attention to that river and following it to get there.Brett: A lot of this seems to happen by buying in the moment like, "Oh, no, this has to happen because if this doesn't happen this particular way, then the entire plan is ruined." Without this 30,000-foot view that we're discussing right now, how would you know in the moment, if you are managing rather than following your intention? What are some ways to mindfully recognize this in the process?Joe: One of the things that I see managers do, since we're on management, specifically, one of the things that I see managers do is they don't ask this question. They don't say, "What speaks against that?" Let's say I come into a room and I say I want to sell in question-based selling and then we're talking to the sales team. I'm like, "Let's do question-based selling." I might try to convince everybody and push everybody into it, motivate everybody and give a good speech. Everybody's like, "Yes, let's do question-based selling."What is usually far more effective and that tells you that you're not in the management of that experience is to say, "Let me give a good case for question-based selling. Here it is. Now, tell me what speaks against it?" People will tell you, "Here are the things that we don't think will work about it." That tells you the things that you have to address. Then you address them and then you're in the flow of the situation. Then you're like, "Okay." Most likely, you're going to get a much better solution because the things that they want you to address are important to address. If you can't address them, then you don't have real buy-in. Without real buy-in, they're not going to do as good of work. Without real buy-in, it probably means that there's a better solution out there. That's one of the ways to know is, if you're trying to push people into a result instead of being eager to find out what speaks against it. When you're listening to what speaks against it, your results are going to be far better. That's one way to know it.Brett: There's a delicious irony there, the idea of trying to sell a sales team on a sales process about question-based selling without asking any questions.Joe: I hadn't thought of that in my example. Yes, exactly. That would be incredibly ironic. Yes, exactly. It's why question-based selling works is, because you're not managing the customer. You're actually empathizing with, following the customer. You're following the river instead of trying to manage the river. That's one way to know it.Other ways are, when you're more listening to the outcome than you are to the impulse. Right now if you listen for the impulse, as to what to say next, that's a very particular somatic experience. You can still have determination in this experience. You can still be feeling like, "Oh, we're going to get to a resolution and I can be listening," and waiting for the impulse to speak. That's all a very possible situation. But when I want your next sentence to be something or I want my sentence to do something to you, to get to a particular place, then I'm in management.Brett: That adds another filter in the process of what you're going to say when you have to think about how you think it's going to be received.Joe: Exactly.Brett: Which then builds in all of your projections into the conversation.Joe: Yes, totally. It also builds a tremendous amount of inefficiency. When you're managing stuff, what you are always doing is not looking at the root cause. As an example, which is a more enjoyable car to own? Is it an MG or is it a Lexus? Most people who don't like fixing cars would say a Lexus is a far more enjoyable car to own than an MG, because you know with an MG, every 500 miles, you have the thing up on blocks and you have to do something.When you are in management, you're just constantly trying to figure out how to fix the MG with the least amount of money and as quickly as possible. When you're in enjoyment, you're looking at the core issue. If you are looking at the core issue, everything becomes far more efficient. You're not trying to patch the boat as it's sinking. Instead, you're thinking, "What's the right boat to build?"Brett: Getting out of context to the bigger question.Joe: Exactly.Brett: We have learned to manage things for a reason, many would propose. Don't you have to manage some level of things for anything to get done? If so, where is that line?Joe: It's not where you think it is, that's for sure. What I mean to say is, if you ask the people at Hyatt, "Hey, man, do you have to manage your properties?" They'd say, absolutely. If you ask the people at Airbnb, "Do you have to manage your properties?" They'd say no. If you ask SK Telecom and all those telecom companies that tried apps before Apple, "Did you have to manage your apps, the building of the apps?" They'd say, "Yes, absolutely. We need to manage it," but Apple said, "No, we don't. As long as they hit a minimum requirement, they can be on the App Store." If you think about all your great employees, how much management do they actually require? It's the people that you're managing that are not usually your great employees.Brett: Maybe because you're managing them so hard.Joe: Indeed. Do you have to manage and what's the boundary? The answer is that the better your system is in place, the better you have the mechanism working, the less management is necessary. Every place that you are managing is basically a way to look at an inefficiency that you have. If you build a really good machine, say like an iPhone, you don't have to manage the iPhone. You and I have never said the word, "Well, I really had to manage my iPhone yesterday." It's because it works.Brett: We might have to manage our iPhone use and that arises from inefficiencies in our attention.Joe: Exactly. That's right. Even that, that's the self-management part, which is you can say, "I need to manage my cell phone use," or you can turn off all your notifications. You can turn your phone into black and white and don't allow for color usage on your phone. Or you can turn on the sleep mode. There's all things that you can do, so that you don't actually even have to manage your cell phone usage, so that it's all done systematically.Brett: Or I can find out what it is in my emotions that makes me want to go to Instagram and start scrolling.Joe: Yes, exactly. All different levels of it. Even managing your own state is ineffective. In fact, that's the thing about meditation generally, is that most people call sitting still and trying to manage your state of mind meditation. It's not meditation. It's torture. Enjoyment of sitting there is meditation. Yes, management is going to happen. This isn't something that you get upset about. Is it something that you're going to never have to do in your whole life? No, but every time you're managing something, you can absolutely see it as a chance to become more efficient and the way that you find that efficiency is through enjoyment.Brett: That's great.Joe: The other thing that happens here, oftentimes when people are talking about they're like, "Yes, but I got to manage my company. I got to tell people what to do." Then you look at other companies. There's this company called Valve. There's this Valve Handbook, which is just amazing. The way they manage what they do, is they figured out how to choose really good people. They have a whole thing about that and then when you get to Valve, you have a desk that's on wheels. Where you push your desk is what projects they do. There's not even somebody saying, "Okay, these are the projects we're going to do. Here's our big initiatives." They literally just have people roll their desks to what they want to do and those are the initiatives that get done in the company.If you look at our entire economy. We have four tools to manage our economy and we don't do it very well. There's just interest rates and how constraining the laws are for businesses, et cetera. Our whole economy doesn't have a manager and yet, we're the biggest economy in the world. So far, we have been the most resilient economy in the world. Is there really a need for management? Is there really a need for that level of centralization? There may be in certain circumstances but guaranteed there is a more efficient system out there and when somebody finds it, they will be the winner of that business and their life will be more enjoyable.Brett: It sounds like, if somebody wants to start experimenting with loosening management and finding more enjoyment, there seems to be a requirement for a certain amount of slack in the system. If you're running a company that's just barely making payroll month after month after month and you imagine that if you just stopped managing people in the way that you're currently managing them and you even have one or two hiccups then everything is all over. Or imagine in a life, where somebody's like, "Well, I'm working three jobs right now to make ends meet. If I just started focusing on enjoyments, then if I left one of those jobs, then I'm not going to feed my family." How would you respond to there being a feeling for a need for slack or people's fear that they don't have enough slack to try an experiment in this way?Joe: I would say that they're looking at enjoyment in a backwards way, meaning there's one way to look at enjoyment, which is, "Here are the things that my head says that I will enjoy when I do it, like me having a creative career." Your head doesn't really know what you're going to enjoy. You can try to organize a life where everything you do is enjoyable, meaning that you've chosen things to do that you enjoy, that you think you enjoy, or you can learn to enjoy the things that you're doing.I'll give you an example of this. When I was 27 years old or something like that, I did this experiment where I said, "I'm not going to do anything I don't enjoy for a month and see how that goes." After the first three or four days, it was everything that I enjoyed. I took a nap when I wanted to take a nap, I did everything I wanted, then the trash started smelling. I was like, "Well, I'm not enjoying living with no trash and I don't enjoy taking out the trash. What the hell am I going to do?" I learned, "Wow, how do I take out the trash and enjoy myself? How do I write emails and enjoy myself? How do I pay bills and enjoy myself." I don't enjoy not having bills unpaid or having a bad credit rating. That's not enjoyable for me.The only way to really get to a life that you enjoy is to not avoid the intensity. It's not to run away from difficult things. It's finding the pleasure in whatever you're doing. It has to be a major part of the equation. If you have three jobs and you need the three jobs to get by, then learn to enjoy the jobs that you have. Learn how to do them with more enjoyment and watch, when you do your job with more enjoyment, your job changes pretty darn quickly. People want to be around people who are enjoying themselves. People want to work with people who are enjoying themselves and people will be attracted to you, people will give you more opportunities.It's the same thing in your business. Maybe you don't have the ability to reinvent your organization, where the management is so low that people are deciding their own payroll and people on the bottom line of a company like the manufacturing line of a company are deciding what $3 million pieces of equipment to buy. Those are companies that are run like that and maybe you can't get there tomorrow. Maybe it's not even smart for your company to get there, but the question that you can always ask is, "What's making this so unenjoyable and how do I enjoy this process?" That is going to build efficiency in your company.The thing is that there's somebody in mind right now when they're listening to me and they're saying, "This isn't necessary. I can be successful without enjoying myself." That is so true. You can be successful financially. You can accumulate a lot of power. You can have a good looking mate on your side. You can have all the toys that you want and not enjoy yourself. That's absolutely 100% the case. They're not actually being correlated-- that success and enjoyment. There's a lot of people that are successful who don't enjoy themselves and there's a lot of people that are successful who do enjoy themselves. What I am saying is that you can have both. If you are having both, you're finding efficiencies.Brett: Yes. Let's define enjoyment then. A lot of people think of enjoyment as there is a sense of control. People have the freedom to do what they want to do, but a lot of what it seems like you're describing with enjoyment is that it doesn't really require freedom. For example, you could be working three jobs and be micromanaged and potentially find enjoyment in what you're doing. Can you talk a little bit more about that?Joe: Yes, absolutely I can. There are people in jail right now enjoying themselves. There are people on this earth right now, who are sitting in three by three cells who haven't lied down in two years, two months and a day who are doing it to learn how to enjoy themselves. That's part of the Lama tradition. The enjoyment is available to you right now. Right now I can say to everybody who's listening to this, "Hey, enjoy yourself just a little bit more right now. Just a little. Just allow a little more enjoyment in this moment."Brett: My entire body just relaxed a little bit.Joe: Right. Exactly. What did that take? Your conditions did not change at all. You're in the same space. You have the same bank account. You have the same girlfriend. Nothing has changed and you just enjoyed yourself a little bit more. Enjoyment doesn't cost anything. Enjoyment is just a perspective. It's just an allowing. It's just a receiving. It's visceral. It requires us to be a little more present. That's it. It requires us, maybe to be a little bit more in our body, but it's not something that is ever inaccessible to us.Brett: It sounds like this is definitely an internal thing as well. We've been talking a lot about enjoyment in our environment, in our circumstances, in our businesses, in our organizations. How does this management and enjoyment dynamic work internally in the way that we just experienced?Joe: Yes, it's a bit of a mystery exactly how it works. What I've seen is that, internally, there is a capacity to feel pleasure that is almost like a muscle. It's a nervous system thing, but it feels like it's a muscle in the fact that you can build it. You can build the capacity for this feeling of enjoyment in your life and this feeling of pleasure. There's a certain amount of overwhelm that happens when you feel too much of it. Your level of too much is going to be different than my level of too much, which is going to be different than person C's level of too much.Brett: What makes it be too much?Joe: I'll tell you what I think it is. If you put your hands together, put your hands like your thumb and your fingers all together and then intertwine your fingers. Now, intertwine your fingers in the opposite way so that your hand looks the same but your pinkies have switched positions. You'll notice that one of those ways is comfortable. The first way is comfortable and the second way is uncomfortable.Brett: Yes, interesting.Joe: Pleasure being too much is very much like that. It's just what you're used to. It's very much a level of comfort based on what you're used to and based on what your nervous system feels safe handling. If your nervous system had to be on high alert to feel safe as a child, then there's a low level of pleasure that you are going to allow yourself an enjoyment that you're going to allow yourself because you're going to feel unsafe. If you were deeply nurtured as a child, then that level of pleasure and enjoyment is going to be much higher. We can train our nervous systems to start accepting higher and higher levels of pleasure.Brett: It seems like there's an inverse relationship between enjoyment and letting our guard down. The more enjoyment we're experiencing, the more down our guard must be and there's some baseline level of guard that we must viscerally believe is required to be safe. Does that make sense?Joe: Yes, that's right. That's exactly right. What you're basically saying there is, that you have to believe that a certain level of defense is necessary, to be able to protect yourself, which also means that you don't believe that you can respond in the moment, that you have to be prepared. That is one of the main things that creates us not listening to our impulse, not watching the river, is that idea that we have to be prepared so we're not in the present moment handling the thing that's in front of us. Or that we're in the future in a way that's very hard. We're not in the future in a soft way.You can be in the future and be like, "I'm dreaming the future and have intentions in the future," but most of the time when we're in the future, we're trying to control the future. That's like the perfect example of management. We do this internally all the time. We're literally having conversations in our heads to control the future. Have you noticed that the conversations that you've had about how you want the future to go, they have never worked out specifically as you planned? You think about how you're going to have the conversation 10 different ways and it never happens that way. It always happens differently.We're thinking about our thoughts. We're trying to manage our future. It never works out and it's definitely not enjoyable. That's called spin. We're just spinning. Now, I imagine that you're in that conversation with that person and you're just listening to the impulse and focused on enjoying the conversation.Brett: Which results in a lot more listening to what they're saying as well.Joe: Exactly and it helps them feel connected with you. You feel more heard and they feel more heard. The conversation goes better. It's the same thing internally. Internally, we're trying to manage ourselves all the time. "Hey, lose weight. Hey, get more in shape. Hey, you should listen more. Hey, you should stop managing." Whatever it is that your brain is constantly telling yourself you should manage and it doesn't work very well. It's not the most efficient way by any stretch.We do this in meditation and we do this in yoga. Now, what is it like to meditate and focus on enjoyment? Not just doing something that you enjoy, but also enjoying what you're doing. Now, what is it like to do yoga and focus on enjoyment or crossfit for that matter? What's the internal thing that you do when you're managing and how effective is it compared to enjoyment?The amazing thing is, I could say to somebody, "Hey, look, whatever internal exercise you do, just focus on enjoyment. Just enjoy that exercise. That's your number one thing to do." Most people won't, because they're like, "Enjoyment is scary," subconsciously, but if they do it, what they notice is that they do it a lot more, because it's more enjoyable. If meditation isn't enjoyable, you don't keep on meditating. If working out isn't enjoyable, you don't keep on working out.The enjoyment propels the practice. Telling yourself you should do it and you really have to do it and you have to do better and stronger da-da-da, it's not very enjoyable and so you stop doing it. The other thing that's important here to say is, that the reason you think you have to manage yourself is, because you don't see that you're inherently good. You don't believe in your inherent goodness. You believe that you're like some lazy gluttonous asshole, if you were left to your own devices and that you need to be whipped into shape.If you believe that about yourself, then that's who you're going to end up being. If you believe that you are inherently good, you want what's best for you and for the people around you and that you want to have an active, enjoyable, fulfilling life, then why on earth would you need to be managed for? If you want that stuff, what would make it, that you wouldn't just naturally do it?Brett: It seems that that would also show up in the way that you manage or treat your employees or expect to be managed or treated by a boss.Joe: Yes. Any boss you've ever had who is a micromanager, I guarantee you they micromanage themselves horribly. If they're not depressed now, they will be. If they don't have major anger issues, they will have. Any boss that you have, that is constantly in fear of how you are behaving is constantly in fear about how they're behaving. It's just the nature of it. The self-development-work works so well in companies, is because you are projecting your internal relationship externally.Brett: Yes, let's dig into more about how this management enjoyment dynamic shows up in relationships.Joe: Yes. Here's the story that I think freaks everybody out and it's very apropos. I have two girls. I don't think there's any time I punish them and I don't think my wife ever punished them. We got angry from time to time. That absolutely happened. I'm sure they felt ashamed from time to time, though we did our very best not to ever shame them. The thought process then is that, well, your kids must be spoiled and that your kids must not do what they're told and your kids must not behave well.If you get into my home, what you find out is that my kids are amazing kids. It's so palpable that when people come they're like, "Wow, you have amazing children. How did you raise them?" That question gets asked all the time. Even after they see our kids, most people are dumbfounded that that's how we did it. We trusted that they wanted to be connected with us. We trusted that they wanted to be connected with themselves. When they were connected with themselves, they would show up thoughtfully and lovingly and with care. That's what they did. That's how it worked out. We never said to them, "Hey you're a bad person. Hey, you're naughty and we need to control that naughtiness." That never happened. They never believed that they were naughty. They just saw that we saw them as good and they ended up as good.Obviously, some adults, that would take years and years and years of treating them that way for them to act that way. I'm not suggesting that you go around and go into a maximum security prison and treat all of them like they're amazing people who are inherently good, because unless they believe that, there's going to be friction to get to that point. In general, that's the way that you walk around in a relationship. The way you walk around is that you find out what's motivating them, find out what's moving them, find out what they want to do and follow that flow instead of saying, "This is what I want you to do and do that."You see this happen all the time. One person convinces another person to join a project. If I'm hiring somebody for a project, I basically say, "What's your dream job?" If they're not really close to the job that I have in mind, it's not a good fit. I'd rather have somebody whose dream job it is, to do the job that I have in mind than to convince someone to do something because, eventually, I'm going to have to manage them. It's something that I learned in making investments. What I realized was that the amount of management that it took to make a deal happen was the same amount of management that I would have to consistently provide to make the deal work. Then that's really inefficient investing. I've learned that if I had to manage to get a deal done, I just would not do the deal. It was the deals that happened with a certain amount of flow and ease that then continued with that same amount of flow and ease. Obviously, there's ups and downs with everything, but generally, that flow and ease was far more likely.Brett: There's also that disempowering factor of managing. If you invest in somebody's company and then you manage them, you're really saying that you don't trust their idea, unless it's done the way you think it should be done.Joe: Yes, that's right.Brett: That brings me back to that prison example, as well. You could go to a maximum-security prison and yes, on one hand, you can't just relax all the restrictions and behave as though everybody knows their inherent goodness, but we could actually stop doing a lot of the things that we do that reinforce the, "I am bad belief." There's a lot of talk about how the system reinforces itself.Joe: Absolutely. You can go in and treat every single person in a maximum-security prison like they are good people. That absolutely will help them. There's a great video documentary called Being Human. If you look it up online, Leonard, Being Human, you will see an example of somebody who has killed a woman and her child. The grandmother of that woman and the child showed him a certain amount of love that changed his life and you can see it. It's absolutely doable and that's how it works in relationships.The other thing is when you're trying to be managing a relationship, you don't want to be in the damn relationship. There's some part of you, whether it is you are getting sold a car and the person is trying to manage you into buying the car, you don't want to be in the relationship. That salesperson isn't as successful. They know that the best car salesmen are the ones who focus on having a good relationship and that don't try to sell the car and they outperform the ones trying to sell the car, usually, four or five to one.It's the same thing we see in our love life; our husbands, our wives, our girlfriends/boyfriends, that when we are trying to manage the other person's mood, there is less love. When we are trying to manage the other person's reaction, there is less love, there's less enjoyment in the relationship. If you are enjoying the person, there's a lot less management. If you're enjoying the moment, there's a lot less management.Brett: In the prison example, you can have boundaries.Joe: You can have boundaries without having to manage anything. A boundary is following an impulse. That's a great point. Having a boundary is basically the deepest act of non management on some level. The reason it is is because what you're saying is, "Here's what I'm going to do," and then you allow the other person to do what they are going to do, which is like, "Hey, what I know is that interacting in this kind of relationship isn't working for me. If I'm going to continue to act in this relationship, then what I want is to not have a lot of yelling and I want it to be respectful and kind." Now, that person can leave and they might leave you. It's really non management. It's just saying, "This is what I'm game for, this is what I'm willing to do in this world." That's what non management is to a large degree. That's what creates an enjoyable life even if it's scary to get there.Brett: It sounds like what you've been saying would be also if a partner is going to leave you and then you're going to have a lot of uncomfortable feelings, because of that and sadness, then that is also something to be enjoyed.Joe: Absolutely.Brett: Or we're going to be trapped by it.Joe: Right, that's another way. Most of what we are trying to manage in our life is an emotional reality. We're trying to manage emotions, trying to not feel heartbreak when our lover leaves us, trying to not feel like a failure if our boss gets angry at us. The non management of those emotional states and when I say non management, I don't mean that now you're like a puddle on the floor throwing temper tantrums and throwing tennis rackets around your house.I'm not saying non management in that way. I'm saying allowing yourself to feel the emotions fully, not act out on them, but allowing the non management of emotions so that you can actually feel them fully and you're not trying to push them down and repress them and hold your muscles to not feel them or judge other people not to feel them. That is a far more productive way of changing patterns in your life, than all the management of telling yourself you should do this or do that. You even mentioned it at the beginning of the podcast. You talked about, “...or I could just look at emotionally what's happening when I scroll on Instagram and what I'm trying to avoid.”Brett: How can we cultivate the enjoyment of those feelings that we are trying to avoid by managing?Joe: Well, stop resisting them. Half of the lack of enjoyment is the management itself. Stop trying to manage them and they'll all of a sudden become a lot more enjoyable. Stop resisting them.A lot of the things about emotional states that we find out is that it is the resistance to them that's painful, not the actual emotion itself. It's the fear of them that's painful, not the actual emotion itself. All of it is a physical sensation in your body. It has different intensities, but once it's unresisted they change rapidly, the sensation of them changes rapidly. No one's ever really been killed by an emotion or maimed by an emotion internally. Maybe an angry person maimed somebody else, but if you internally are feeling your emotions, you're not going to be wounded.Brett: Through the process of managing and suppressing our emotions, we can slowly kill ourselves with stress. That's true and depression.Joe: Yes, that's exactly it. Generally, that's the thing about management, we think we need it. What it actually is, is just a constant signal that we can find a more efficient way and a more enjoyable way. Just dropping the management itself can be enjoyment. Just to say, it's just about taking your hand of control away from it slowly.Some people, after listening to this, are like, "Okay, I'm just not going to manage any of my employees ever again." Then everything goes to shit and then they'll be like, "Yes that's right. I needed to manage it and I've proven that. I do need to manage it." What I'm saying is, see what the next level of enjoyment is, see what the next level is, because you have to find the new ways of being without management.An example that's really critical is, you're sitting with a bunch of employees or people that you work with and you need a job done. Let's say you need the car cleaned. One way to do it is to say, "I need the car cleaned." That would be maybe the least amount of management. The least amount of management is to see if anybody cleans the car, which may happen. If they have the right to defined roles and everything like that, reinventing organization style, somebody might just come and clean the car because they see it needs to get done.There's, "Hey, I need the car cleaned". Then there's like, "I need to get the car cleaned in this way, this way, this way and then make sure you detail this and do this and dah, dah, dah." Then there's car cleans just like, "Hey, I need the car cleaned and I need it to look like it looks when you get off of a new car lot. I need it to be done for less than $150 and I need you to enjoy yourself doing it." Where you give people the parameters of what a good job is but you don't tell them how to do it. You just tell them how to win.You don't see a lot of people doing it that way. You don't see that interim step, the interim step of letting people discover how to do it in a way that lets them win. Most people want to know how to win. If you keep determination and you keep intention and you keep boundaries and you keep maintaining and mandating the results that you want, then how necessary is management? The management is just the fear, that you're not going to get there. The management is just the fear, that people are going to hurt you, that people aren't going to show up.Brett: What you have been saying then in this entire episode is that in order to stop managing, we need to be willing to feel and enjoy feeling these emotions that we're trying to avoid like fear. That sounds like a really interesting topic to get into on another episode.Joe: Yes, indeed. That is a great way to think about that which is, we often try to figure stuff out before we actually allow the feeling of stuff. If we really let that feeling happen and learn how to enjoy that feeling, then most of what we're trying to figure out doesn't need to be figured out anymore.Thanks for listening to The Art of Accomplishment podcast. If you enjoyed what you heard today, please subscribe. We would love your feedback, so feel free to send us questions and comments. To reach us, join our newsletter, learn more about VIEW, or to take a course, visit: artofaccomplishment.comResources:Frederic Laloux, Reinventing Organizations, https://www.reinventingorganizations.com/Yann Arthus-Bertrand, Human, http://www.human-themovie.org/
If you do much Art of Accomplishment work, chances are good that you will have a transformational experience. When you return to your life after a profound breakthrough, you may experience feelings of confusion, being lost, or even being unmoored from everything that once grounded you. That's why integration is so important when doing this work. "As you're moving forward, it isn't a straight line, so what you think to be moving backwards might just be the way humans learn. Kids go from walking to crawling. To be easy on yourself about your learning process and be appreciative of those moments that you are learning, this helps integration out more than anything else."Brett: If you do much of Joe's work, chances are good that you will have a transformational experience. You may suddenly recognize some pattern you have played out over and over again in your life and find the ability to step out of it. These types of experiences have changed lives, but we know the moment of epiphany is not the end of the story. When you return to your life after a profound breakthrough, you may experience feelings of confusion, being lost or even being unmoored from everything that once grounded you. That's why integration is so important when doing this work. Joe, what is a transformative experience?Joe: Yeah, that's a great question. The funny thing is, when I was listening to your introduction, you talked about an epiphany. It's really important to distinguish between epiphany and transformation. With epiphany, epiphany is a recognition of a belief system that offers you relief. It is like you understand something. There's this click in your system, and there's this relief that occurs. Transformation is distinct from that in the fact that transformation actually changes the way that you act. It changes how you do things. The epiphany, it's a really important part of some transformations, not all transformations. It's a really important part, but the thing to recognize about an epiphany is, it is dead almost as soon as it arrives. You have this epiphany, and you are unburdened from a thought, but pretty soon that epiphany can become your next burden. Maybe in some part of the development, you're hanging out and you have this epiphany. I have will. I have free will. I can choose. That's a really important thing to get out of a victim mentality, or to see where you can be more empowered in your life. Then you're like choice, choice, choice. Then that becomes the next rut because, being completely in choice, which was very important, prevents you from seeing grace. It prevents you from seeing the fact that, maybe you've never really been able to control any thought you have had. They have all been gifts. Every emotional experience you have isn't something you can control. You can repress it or not, but you can't control it. Maybe you can't even decide to repress it or not. Maybe it's just instinctual. Each one of these epiphanies is like the tender beginning of a rut, and I think it's really important to see that, because the important part is lifting away. The important part is the freedom from a constrictive thought by seeing through it. It's not to attach yourself to the epiphany. It's to recognize that moment of freedom that is created, and to step into that moment of freedom more and more often. Transformation is a little bit different than that. Transformation is I now can't do things the same way. It's not will power. You can will yourself into some transformations potentially. It's not an effective way to do it, but you can do it. But it's especially transformation that gets especially confusing, when you can't choose the same way anymore. We have people in our work that all of a sudden, they go into a grocery store and they just can't buy the same things they have always bought. I know that seems weird, but it has happened more than once where people are all of a sudden more in tune with their system, where they just can't eat the same old crap they have been eating. Those are the ones that are a little bit more scary. It's why transformation can be a pain in the ass sometimes, because there are some moments of feeling out of control because you don't have the experience you have relied on, that habit you have relied on for years. Sometimes it happens in the weirdest ways, so transformation is just the change of what you do. Intellectually, the change is what you get done and how it gets done, but emotionally it is changing your decisions, because you are allowing more fluidity of emotions. You want to feel more emotional things instead of repressing them. Brett: That it's changing the emotional context within which all of your decisions are made. Joe: That's right. Because neurologically speaking, you make decisions based on emotions, as what you are willing to feel and what you are willing not to feel, what you are excited to feel, what you are excited to feel, that you used to be horrified at feeling. That will really change a lot of the decisions you make. Then there's another transformation that is created, not from the intellect or the emotion but from the sense of self. When that sense of self changes, those can be some of the biggest shifts that happen. It's an experience of deep freedom because usually when the sense of self transforms, it widens, it grows. It becomes less of a small thing, more of a big thing. So there's less to defend. Brett: What's an example of that sense of self changing? What's a common example in one of your courses that someone might experience?Joe: What would be somewhat common is, let's say there's a feeling of an abyss, a place in their life or their psyche that they don't want to look, a person doesn't want to look. Every time they kind of glance over it, they are like, “I don't want to look there.” Then all of a sudden they see it for what it is, and they see it as a direct path to freedom. They jump into it. They are like, “Oh, that's actually where I want to go.” It's very much the allegory of the cave, or Luke Skywalker going into the cave where they are just like okay, I am going to go and face that thing. Oftentimes when that happens, the sense of self collapses in on itself in some way, particularly because we define ourselves in contrast to other things. The sense of self becomes more universal. If you were to think about yourself in this moment and say, “What am I? But I can't think of it in terms of what I am not. Therefore, I am a soul, but what that means is you're not material.” Or, “I am my thoughts.”, but that means you're not your body. If you think of yourself not in terms of a not, everytime one of things you think you're not, goes away and you find out you are that, too, then the sense of self changes. Oftentimes, people avoid these big abysses, and when they don't, when they go into them, that sense of self completely shifts. Then there are some really shifts of sense of self that can happen, and those are the most disorienting transformations. Brett: What kinds of situations can trigger these breakthroughs?Joe: Almost anything. Deep depression often transforms people. Times of transition, stress, where the sense of self or your ideas or your emotional frameworks are not working, and so they have to change. Stress can change things. Sometimes just the truth smacking you in the face. You just have that moment where you are like fuck, that is not working. You can also just change people's contexts, like take a wealthy high falutin person and stick them in a ghetto with no money. They are going to have transformation, or vice versa. There's going to be a switch. Brett: A change in perspective. Joe: The change in perspective. It also changes who you think you are, because so much of who you think you are is based on context and what people tell you you are. If all of a sudden you aren't around people who tell you you are that, it starts to shift. Also, emotional fluidity is a big part of how transition changes. To have big emotional experiences, neurologically speaking, it allows you to reprogram some of the behavioral learnings you have. Big emotional experiences can do that. All of those things can trigger breakthroughs and transformation. Brett: What does transformation look like deep in the process? What different ways can it show up?Joe: Literally, almost any way you can imagine. For instance, if we talk about the awakening sense in the Zen, Buddhist sense of awakening. Everybody says awakening, and it can mean so many different things. But we are talking about that moment when the sense of self dissolves into universal, where you see that you are everything and everything is you. That moment of awakening particularly is what I am talking about here. For some people, they don't even notice it. It is such a gradual thing. It is like months after it happened, they look back and they are like oh, holy crap. For some people, people like Byron Katie or Eckhart Tolle, it is like they are in the deepest depression and the next day they have this utter freedom. For some people, it looks like Zen sickness where they have that epiphany. The Zen have a word for it called Zen sickness, where the sense of self shifts out of you, so you aren't you anymore. Everything is you. You feel depersonalized. I was talking to a psychologist who was a mediator and had some awakening experiences. He was saying a good percentage of what people call depersonalization disorder is like a Zen sickness of awakening, where you get that feeling of not being just you, but you don't like it so you try to stop it. You are like, “Er!” That tension creates a tremendous amount of dis-ease in your system. If you go on to the depersonalization disorder websites, and you look at people talking about when it happened and how it happened. It is like exactly awakening experiences that you read in religious texts. It is unbelievable. I mean to the letter kind of stuff. So it can happen every way. It can be like a dark night of the soul. It can feel like the bottom fell out from underneath you, like you have no place to stand anymore. It can feel like absolute bliss and love. Brett: It sounds like transformation isn't always a good thing then. Joe: For sure. Is it a good thing to get into shape? Yes, I would say. Are there going to be uncomfortable moments of getting into shape? Absolutely I would say. There's freedom on the other side of it. The question is, how much resistance and fear is there between the integration or how it looks. They are exactly correlated. If you get Zen sickness and you say, “Oh, okay, this is normal, this is Zen sickness, this passes, no big deal.”, you have a very different experience than if you are like, “What the hell is happening, how do I get it to stop?”Brett: It is again putting it into context. Joe: Yeah, exactly. There are moments that can be uncomfortable. Those moments can be seen through in an instant. I think a large part of my work when I work with people is, when they meet these states just to let them know it's common, to let them know I have seen it many, many times before. Almost that often can transform everything, because they just get scared. What they knew isn't available to them anymore. The thing about integration is when it is integrated, you have complete availability to where you were before, and you have availability to a new thing. It increases your flexibility. It doesn't decrease it. If you want to go be angry, prejudiced, hateful or if you want to go be in the bad habit again, or the habit you felt was uncomfortable, you can. You have that choice. You can go back and eat the stuff. It's just going to hurt more. Brett: So then let's talk about integration and how to support the smoothest integration from these experiences. What does integration mean to you? What makes it important?Joe: I think it is the integral people who talk about it as transcend and integrate. I think about it on those terms a lot. There's a way in which if you go from walking to crawling, you don't lose your capacity to crawl. You just walk most of the time. It is like that. There's a new flexibility. There's a new way of doing things. That's what I think about when I think about integration. It's that time of moving from the unknown of a new epiphany or a new skill set into the known. If you look at really early stage child development, there's a primary reaction, the tertiary reaction. It's basically a little kid, a baby, they have a hand, and they don't know that hand is part of them. The hand hits them, scratches them, and wacks them in the face, and the baby is surprised. What the hell is that thing? Then all of a sudden, they see that that hand is theirs, and they know it. But they don't particularly know how to control it. Then they learn how to control it. These are the ways that we develop in everything. There's the original epiphany that happens, and it leaves us in this unknown, like what the hell is going on. Then the second stage is oh, I see it but I haven't completely mastered it. Then there's the mastery of it. This can take many years for some epiphanies and it can take minutes for other transformation, other experiences. That's how I think of it, but there's almost always those three stages that go on. The integration is getting from that first moment of, “Aha, oh woah!”, to, “Oh this is normal.” The amazing thing is, oftentimes when it is normalized when you have mastered it, you forget it is there. The reason you forget it is there is because you've confused the skill with the feeling of euphoria or epiphany that you get when you first get the realization. Watching an infant for the first time, they walk and they are like, “Ah!” They get super excited. Then they are not excited when they are walking at three years old. It is just normal. They are hardly conscious that they are walking, but they don't confuse walking with the elation. But as you get into other stages of development, you confuse the elation with the new perspective, because it's all happening internally. It's not physical. You can't measure it or see it outside of yourself. Brett: What does it look like when this process is healthy? It sounds like that story with the baby is what healthy integration looks like. You have the epiphany. You see yourself in a way that you hadn't seen yourself before. You're not immediately sure what to do about this, but you start to find that your actions change, your words change and you start to develop this relationship with your fuller self. Eventually, it becomes second nature, and then you stumble into a new epiphany. Joe: I would say the choices you can make in the integration that I think are really important and that help with that healthy integration, are things like not trying to find the answers. After a good integration, you have less answers, not new answers. It's not going from like this is the right answer to this is the right answer. It's going from I know less in a way, and I am more comfortable with it. There's more of a mystery out there. I am more comfortable with it. At the same time, I know more of my own truth. I know more of my own self. There's a deeper knowing of self and truth, but less of a knowing of having solid answers to things. It's also choosing the sensitivity side instead of the less sensitive. Often, with transformation, we become sensitive to new things because we are not repressing stuff anymore. Embracing that new sensitivity and not trying to block that sensitivity. Those are some of the choices that you can make. Also, to see, as you are moving forward, it isn't a straight line, so what you think to be moving backwards might just be the way humans learn. Kids go from walking to crawling. Be easy on yourself about your learning process and be appreciative of those moments you are learning, this helps integration out more than anything else, these things. Brett: The first you draw a boundary of a particular kind or speak your truth in a particular way, it might be messy. Joe: Most likely it will be messy. That's right. Brett: It sounds like a lot of what you have just been describing is, as we transform and start to see ourselves more clearly, we let go of some of our deeply patterned behaviors so that they may just become a little bit more ambiguous. We don't assume to know what's going on in the world, and we have more space for curiosity, wonder and to see the subtlety in things. That leads to the not knowing what's going to happen. Joe: So there's more flexibility in life. It's a less patterned response. I think if you are saying, if you know the integration is going well, if you want to look, it's not short term. You can't monitor every minute and say is this happening, but over weeks or months the question is, “Do I have more emotional fluidity? Do emotions move through my body more smoothly? Do I take things less personally? Am I more aware of physical sensations? Am I experiencing that world differently? Are patterns losing their grip?” And pendulation, going back and forth between the old behavior and the new behavior, these are the marks of integration happening. Brett: Let's talk a little bit more about what can go wrong. You talked a little bit about the Zen sickness type thing. What else can happen?Joe: Almost all of it, I wouldn't say all of it, but almost all of what can go wrong is resistance to what is. Oftentimes when transformation is happening, we have a deeper acceptance and love of ourselves. The next thing that needs to be loved, the next thing that's been rejected shows up to be loved. We don't see it as showing up to be loved. We see it as showing up and fucking with us. “Er, I was just in this bliss state and now there's anger!” instead of, “Ah, there's the anger.” It needs to be loved now, too. It needs to be integrated now, too. When we start resisting the movement or start fearing the movement in particular, that's when things can go really sideways. I don't want to feel this way. I don't want to have emotions this often. I don't want to be this sensitive. I don't want to see the world in a non personal way. Instead of saying, “Ah, this is it and this is the natural flow of things. It must be, because I am experiencing it and being settled with it.” That lack of resistance is what makes everything go very smoothly. Usually most of the stuff that goes wrong is really just people in fear of the transformation that's happening, that particular stage of transformation that's happening. When I work with people, as soon as they find out it's normal and they see I am not bothered by it. It kind of feels like you are walking, but it is not entirely you walking. That could be an experience. Your visual field changed. Oh yeah, you go to the grocery store. That's happened before. Then they can get curious about it, and everything shifts. Some exceptions to this are things like some Kundalini energy awakening stuff, it's definitely impacted by how much you allow it but you can push transformation through your energetic channels. I don't really speak about this very much. I think the idea of energy is misinterpreted by a lot of people. I think as soon as you say it, anybody who defines themselves as rational can say energy, rah rah. There's no such thing, or whatever they want to do. Brett: I think one way to bridge that for anybody listening to this and looking for a rational bridge to this stuff would be to think of it as nervous system activity. There are a lot of different ways you can produce a lot of different nervous system type responses, that can be described metaphorically with energy. Joe: That's exactly right. Somebody who I learnt a lot from around it called them close cousins. They are almost identical, hard to see the difference between the nervous system and the energetic system. I absolutely agree. That's the best way to think about it. I think the other way to think about it that can be very helpful is bodily sensations, non muscular bodily sensations. That's another way to think about it. Anyways, those things can shift in such a way that maybe they keep you up all night or you are excited too much or something can go out of whack there. That's far more of a physical thing that's happening. It can be really exaggerated by certain breath work or certain yoga practices. If that's happening, and you've confused that Kundalini thing is going to set you free, then I really suggest going to see a professional, a really good acupuncturist or somebody like that that can rebalance that energetic system or nervous system. Then the other thing that can happen is, people can go into traumas and relive a deep trauma and not be held in a deeply loving container for enough time for them to integrate that trauma, and see that they are not living anymore. It was something that was in the past, and so that's another place where it can go wrong. Somebody goes into a trauma, and it's like they can't be held in love. They can't be held in unconditional acceptance. Therefore, it gets stuck again. It will move, but it's just not the skillful way to move through it, and it's definitely not the most gentle way to move through it or the most efficient. Those are some of the places where it can go wrong, where one person who is not very skilled at holding trauma. They have just processed their own and they decide they really know about trauma, and somebody moves some trauma because they know some of the exercises or things that can move that trauma, but they don't know actually how to hold it. That's another place where it can go wrong. I really recommend if you are moving trauma to move it with somebody who has some experience in that place, to really dive into those places. Brett: Along those lines, I am curious about a pattern I've seen before in this type of work, and this happens in all kinds of student teacher relationships, where there is a mentor in the role of transmitting the wisdom of some practice or facilitating a trauma release of some kind. The student walks away from an experience feeling transformed, but also increasingly feeling dependent on their teacher or some other projected gatekeeper of wisdom. What do you have to say about that?Joe: In general, avoid teachers who do that is what I would say, but it can get a little confusing there too. The kind of teacher I would recommend is a teacher who is constantly pointing you back to your own truth, who is teaching you the skills you need to be independent, to be more successful and more self aware, more skillful in your means so to speak. The way to get there most efficiently is to really teach you how to listen to yourself and follow your own truth and encourage you to not take their word as solid gold or even wisdom, but to take their words and experiment with it and find out what's working for you. That's the relationship. The relationship is where the teacher doesn't see themselves as better than, worse than or equal to you, but they see what can best be described as you. That's the best relationship, the most effective relationship. Maybe you need something else, and maybe you need to explore the depth of a dysfunctional teaching relationship or one where you decide somebody else knows better for you than you do. But it's definitely not anything I would recommend. If you are doing that, go into it consciously. The confusion is that if I was teaching you physics, you wouldn't assume that you understand physics after I taught you two workshops. Okay, we spent four hours together learning physics, and you are like okay, I got it. There are things the teacher should know, because they have more experience in the work that you might not know. You might not have spent the time on the landscape. You might not have been in the terrain as long. The teacher should hold some value, but it shouldn't look like dependency. It should constantly look like it is increasing your capacity as a person. For the most part, pretty consistently, there might be some strays, some backwaters you get caught in, but sometimes you have students who are just like okay, now I have spent 16 hours with you. I am ready to teach. They always find out the hard way teaching isn't as sexy as they think it is. Brett: There's the contrast between the pre transformation self and the post transformation self, where all of a sudden you feel like you see the world so clearly, and there's a part of you that immediately comes in. The ego comes in. Now I see the world completely. I'm ready. Joe: That's where the idea of a tradition holds power. I mean it holds some things back, and it gives really good things. Since we are talking about Zen today, let's talk about it. Somebody has a big awakening in Zen, and a master will smack them on the back of the back with a cane. It really hurts. They are like who felt that then, where they are basically challenging that part of you that thinks now, “I get it!” The part of you thinks that there's a finish line and it's not a constant evolution and there's some place where transformation stops. That's one of the really beautiful things about a tradition. There are other things that limit you in a tradition as well. You start thinking that the tradition is truth or the writings are truth or the teacher is truth, instead of what's happening internally being the truth. Brett: I think something that happens that contributes to the starry eyed teacher worship thing is having a transformative experience where what you have described is, you have been de-patterned a little bit. You feel like there's sort of 404 like you have described. You are sort of sitting in the unknown. I think that can lead to a fear of being in that unknown and a desire to collapse that unknown down onto something, like a teacher or some particular belief that gives us that sense of knowing again. Joe: Absolutely. We are constantly trying to find some way that we feel like we are in control. I know this is real. The truth is it's just the opposite. The more you go, the more you realize it's not real. At the same time, interestingly, almost paradoxically, you are far more grounded. It's far less likely you are going to be swayed from your love, your freedom and your truth. Brett: I think this speaks to the importance of community. The courses of yours I have taken, it has been really, really helpful to have other people who have been through the same experience and be able to cross reference with them how they are doing with their lives and not just be dropped back into my previous life and having a hard time contextualizing. Joe: Community is far more important than the teacher, I would say. They really help each other out hopefully. There's so much more wisdom to be gotten from a community of practice with a similar intention than there is from a teacher. If I am teaching someone how to access their anger, my capacity to do that is not as good as the person who just learnt or at least they have some capacity that I do not have, someone who has just learnt to release their anger in a safe way. It's like it's electric. A community can do that, because there are people at different stages learning different things. They can teach each other. We see this in learning math with 3rd graders. That community is incredibly important. I think that's really important. It's also really important because there's a relatableness that people going through the journey together can have, and so less fear can interrupt the transformation and maintain the pattern. I think that's another reason that community is just so critical, and to allow yourself to be a part of that community and be vulnerable in that community is tremendous. The weakness of a community is a whole community can decide the teacher is special. Brett: And the teacher can buy into that, and the whole system locks into something. It becomes a cult. Joe: That agreement between a community and a teacher, facilitator or leader. There's something natural in us that wants sex. There's something natural in us that wants somebody to know what the hell is going on, to have the answer, to know which way to go so that we can feel safe. It's why when we do longer term courses, one of the things we learn is that that wisdom is best found in the community. It's found in group intelligence, which is really tricky to access. You need a lot of skills to get there, but I mean that's the far deeper wisdom. I teach that, because I like to access that wisdom. I can sit here and talk. I can play the role of the person who knows something, but one of the places I get the most insight, I learn the most is to watch a community access it's deeper intelligence. I love that. I love working that way in business. I love working that way with people. It's where I learn and grow the most and I find everybody learns and grows the most. Brett: For people who are coming out of courses and going back into their world and trying to create or be a part of a community or be doing this work with the people in their lives, I have experienced it can be really difficult to present the work. How do we present what we are doing to people in our lives? I just did this course. It was really great. It was transformational for me. What is the best way to describe this to people?Joe: Don't. I would say don't try to describe it to people. Describe your experience to people. Don't describe the work, meaning just show up with more unconditional love for the people around you. Show up with more self awareness. Show up with less patterned responses. Show up in a way that inspires them to join you and meet you. But I don't recommend missionary work or using the tools on people who are not in agreement to do it. It's a form of like better than-ness. You have to think you have just discovered something. There's a very natural part of it where you just discovered something that gave you freedom and you want to share it with everybody. If you can even own that, like, “Okay, I just experienced something I really want to share, because it is giving me so much happiness, and I realize that I do not want to push anything on you. How do you want to deal with that?” I think that's a beautiful thing to say to somebody and see where they are with it, but to do it without permission, to do it without consciousness, just don't. Just be in your new world. Enjoy it. Enjoy them just as they are. That's what I suggest. Brett: What would be a good line to draw between the tools that are meant to be brought into the world, having a VIEW conversation and questions, and some of the tools that are perhaps not ready to be brought to people who haven't been exposed to the work, projection reclamation or something like that?Joe: If you are asking them to do anything, then don't do it. In VIEW, you don't have to ask them to do anything or be any way. You just ask questions and speak from a vulnerable, impartial, empathetic and a space of wonder. You are not requiring anything from them, but as soon as you are asking them to do something or you are telling them about their experience or you are trying to cajole them into a new way of being or trying to have power over them or feel in control or not feel the helplessness that you have being their friend. Anything like that, then don't do that. Brett: It sounds like that comes straight back to being in VIEW, not being partial, not trying to change them. Joe: That's exactly it. Brett: Do you have any more tips for those of us who have just come from a course and are ready to present our new, transformed selves to the world and to the other people in our lives?Joe: I think the main thing there is, there is natural pressure from society or a group or a marriage to have you be who you were. It's hard for people to see the new you. It's hard for you to see the new version of a person across from you. There are behaviors that you have agreed upon. You have an agreement. “I am going to save you. You are going to be a victim. You are going to bully me. I get to be resentful.” No matter how healthy or unhealthy those agreements are, there's a pressure to stay in those relationships. I think about the 3 to 5 rule in this, which is when you have a new behavior, you are drawing a new boundary, you should expect that the person is going to treat you like your old self 3 to 5 times. Each time they are going to up the ante on the behavior. Let's say you have got a husband who is a yeller, and you are like, “Okay, I don't want to be with your yelling, but I really want to be with you. When you are yelling, I am going to leave the house and I will come back in 30 minutes. If we can talk, great, and if we can't, I will leave the house again for 30 minutes.” It's going to take 3 to 5 times of doing that before the husband gets it and is like, “Okay. I got it.” Yelling doesn't work anymore. Most likely, they are going to use a whole bunch of other tricks to keep you in. They are going to up the ante 3 to 5 times, and then the behavior falls apart. So that's the expectation. I am really grateful that it's built this way and that humanity tends to act in this way, because it really forces us to learn to keep that boundary. It forces us to really learn what's necessary to change this behavior even under stressful circumstances. It's actually quite a gift, but it's good to keep it in mind that you are not going to go back into your world and everybody is going to be like, “Oh, hey, he's different. Now I am going to treat him like the new person he is.” Brett: There will be resistance, and it's an opportunity to double down on doing the world. Joe: That's exactly it. Well said. I think the other thing to know is, some people are going to go away. If you transform, some people are going to be like, “I don't like the new agreement.” That only happens I find, like 70% to 80% of the time people stay and 20 to 30 people leave. Everybody is very scared of it. Whenever somebody transforms, one of the ways they try to revert is to go, “I am going to lose so and so.” They are scared of the result, but it doesn't happen as frequently as you would think. Only 20 or 30% of the time, and it's basically like, “Hey, this is the way I want to live and this isn't the way I want to live.” If you can see it that way, it's really beautiful. It's not personal. It's just choices people are making. It's great to see it that way, because it can just be really transparent that way, too. It's like, “I have decided I want to live in a world where we show up and love, instead of showing up in shame with each other. Do you want to join me? Do you want to support each other in that transformation?” The more transparent that articulation of your vision is, then the easier it is for people to meet you. The less likely it is that they are going to decide to leave. Some people are going to leave. Some people are just not going to want to inhabit the world you want to create for yourself, but it's nothing to fear, because better people show up. Not better, but people who want to live in those agreements, they always show up. Brett: Those who stay are getting a more self aware version of you. Joe: That's right, and not only do they show up, you also start inviting people in who are also transforming. That propels your own transformation. It really works out well. Oftentimes, those people can't show up if the space is filled by someone who is abusive or doesn't have the same agreements. Brett: We touched on this a little bit earlier. You often highlight the importance of staying in the not knowing after a breakthrough or seeing through some habitual way of perceiving things, but integration necessarily seems to involve some kind of collapse of the unknowing state into some new identity, which becomes a new rut. How do we stay the most in that unknowing without collapsing it but still staying grounded in our lives?Joe: That's a great question. I think it's not about trying to stay in the not knowing. It's more about not trying to get into the knowing, I think. Some big thing happens, and your mind is like, “Let me figure that out. I've got to figure that out.” Your mind always figures it out. I guarantee it. If your mind at this moment hasn't figured it out, I guarantee it will. Have a little patience with it. It might take a couple months. I was talking about those three stages of development as far as the baby's hand, not knowing it is the hand hitting and scratching its face, and then there's I know it's my hand and then there's the I can control my hand. Those three stages are really important. If you cut any of them short, the full integration doesn't happen. Babies need to crawl for a while for them to get solid left right brain cohesion. It's just a really important thing to allow the not knowing to be there as long as it wants to be there, meaning not forcing it. Then the knowing shows up, like oh, I get it. It's not figured out. It's like I get it, and then all of a sudden you can articulate it. That process is the smoothest, and it creates the deepest integration. If you strive to put words on it and strive to understand it, then you are limiting it. You are containing it in a way that doesn't allow it to fully transform you.Brett: Thanks a lot, Joe. This has been a great episode. Thanks for talking to us about integration. Joe: Pleasure, good to talk to you as always, Brett. Love you, man. Brett: Take care. Thanks for listening to The Art of Accomplishment. If you enjoyed what you heard today, please subscribe & rate us in your podcast app. We would love your feedback, so feel free to send us questions and comments. To reach out to us, join our newsletter, or check out our courses at artofaccomplishment.com.
How does empathy affect our decision making? We often think we are making decisions based on intellect but in reality we make many, if not all, decisions based on trying to feel or trying not to feel certain emotions. If you look forward to all of your emotions what will that do to your decision making? "When you have empathy with someone, they are more likely to be open because they feel that you are with them, and you can't do anything to show it to them. You are just empathetic, and it just occurs."Welcome to the Art of Accomplishment, where we explore how deepening connection with ourselves and others leads to creating the life we want with enjoyment and ease.My name is Brett Kistler. I am an adventurer, entrepreneur and a self exploration enthusiast. I am here with my co-host, Joe Hudson. Joe is a business coach who has spent decades working with some of the world´s top executives and teams developing a unique model of human patterns that underpin how we operate with ourselves, each other and the world. A good entry point into this model is a mindset called VIEW, vulnerability, impartiality, empathy and wonder. Through understanding and cultivation we learn to easefully drop into the VIEW state of mind, deepening self awareness and increasing our connection with the world around us. To learn more about this podcast or courses, visit artofaccomplishment.comBrett: When we imagine a professional environment, we often see a world where emotions are held inside and remain unseen by others, filtered out as distractions. We might focus on the business stuff, that is the logistics and agreements that seem more relevant than the feelings behind them. Even in our personal lives, intense reactions from others can feel like a distraction from the connection that we want. What if learning to be acutely aware of others' internal experiences, can give us more useful information than the words they speak? How can our personal and professional relationships change as we learn to notice and address the hurt behind an angry attack or the fear behind a hasty agreement? This is the practice of empathy, the E in VIEW. Joe, how do you define empathy?Joe: It's so hard. Empathy is so much of a feeling, more than it is an intellectual understanding, but I would say it's being with somebody's experience without losing yourself in it. That's what I would say empathy is. It's not watching somebody's experience and it's not wanting to change somebody's experience. It's being with them in the experience without losing yourself in it.Brett: Give me an example.Joe: Oftentimes when I'm working with clients, for instance, they'll be all agitated around something, and I'll just ask a simple question like, "Is this yours?" Recently there's some COVID anxiety that one of my clients is feeling and I was like, "Is this yours?" They just immediately dropped. They're like, "No, it's not mine." That's one way. That's why, kind of when you're in it. The other way to define kind of what it isn't so to speak is, you see this all the time with babies crying. Baby starts crying and some people get instantly annoyed and some people can be with that crying, and that's really a deep expression of their capacity to have empathy in that moment. There's actually something biologically that happens too after a baby cries for an extended period of time. For a man, their testosterone increases. In those first couple of minutes of crying, our capacity to empathize with that child or be agitated by that child is really kind of that linchpin.Brett: Okay. You said earlier this question, is it yours? What do you mean by that?Joe: Yes. Oftentimes, highly empathetic people go beyond empathy, the way I would define empathy. They would go beyond it and then they're not being able to tell what's their emotional state and what's another person's emotional state. This really happens to people who were children of alcoholics or children of abuse, people who had to survive by knowing the emotional state of somebody when they walk into the room. They can very much get lost in the other person's emotions and think that they're theirs.We have these things called mirror neurons in our brain, and they basically allow us to feel the state of other people on some level. Sometimes when we're feeling somebody else, we forget that we're feeling them, that it's not us that's feeling that way. In a weird way, we start feeling that way, so then it's really even more confusing because then you're like, I'm feeling it. If you ask yourself the question, is this mine, and then that can clarify a lot.Brett: Yes. That makes a lot of sense. The idea of mirror neurons is a little bit interesting. The way I see it is, that basically our entire system, all of our consciousness is mirroring our reality in some way, mirroring and correlating perfectly with it and then losing ourselves or are we correlating with it and being with it and experiencing it and learning from it?Joe: Yes. Mirror neurons in neurology is such a mystery still. What is it that allows-- Is it some form of mirror neuron that allows a whole bunch of birds to know how to turn at the exact same moment? There's something particularly around mammals, where most mammals communicate without any words, and so they're really relying on their ability to sense the experience of the other animals.Brett: Yes, social nervous system. Tell me how practicing empathy will benefit us. What does this do for us?Joe: Well, one of the great benefits is, that if anything that you have a hard time empathizing with, means that you have a hard time with that emotional state for yourself. That's fantastic because our decision making process is really based on emotions. If I take the emotional center of your brain away, you cease to make decisions, it would take you half an hour to decide what color pen-- We're really making decisions based on trying to feel or trying not to feel certain emotions, whether we like it or not, whether we think we're being logical or not. If that emotional center of your brain gets taken away, you still have all the intellect, you still have all the rationale, but you still can't make the decisions.It really helps us clarify our decision making, it really allows us to help us be with our own emotional-- and to discover where we're having a hard time being with our own emotions. If you think about your life in this way, if you think about how much of your life has been decided by, "I don't want to feel like a failure," or "I want to feel like a success," or "I don't want to feel unhappy," how many decisions have you made based on that criteria and to be able to be with all of your emotions, what will that do? If you look forward to all of your emotions, what will that do to your decision making and how does it change your emotional state? If I have sadness and I don't want to feel it, it feels very different, than if I have sadness and I want to feel it. Those are a lot of the things that'll benefit us on an inward perspective. Externally, obviously, people like it when other people are with them. If you think about your friends and the people you feel closest to in the world, you can find that they're more able to be with you than people who you don't particularly like. If you look at your friends and you say, what is it about your friends that you want to have changed, oftentimes, it fits into the category of their inability to be with you or see you for who you are. There's that whole thing, too, where it's just, we want to be empathized with, most of us want to be empathized with. It just creates a deeper connection, more loving, more capacity to love.Brett: Yes, it seems like the first half of what you described as feeling into our emotions to find out where our thoughts and rationale are coming from, and then in others being able to see behind that, too. If somebody is presenting you with a solution or an idea, whether it's a business context or in a relationship, to be able to see behind that, what the feeling is that that's coming from can allow you to address a deeper root cause or need.Joe: Yes, at least it gives you the capacity to do it. Sometimes people get upset if you do that. [chuckles] It's like, "Wow, it really doesn't seem like you're angry, it seems like you are hurt." "No, I'm not." You know that kind of-- but generally, it goes pretty well and people want to deal with the underlying thing. So many logical arguments are really not at all about the logic. It's not really about the tactics or the facts. I mean just look at most public discourse. It's not really about the facts. It's about the emotional state of people and their fear, and what they need and what they want and what they are angry about. Yes, to be able to connect with people on that level and to not tell them that they need to be different, but to actually be with them, it's a huge capacity. It really allows you to have a much deeper authentic relationship or communication with people.Brett: I think the public discourse is a great example, because a lot of people get so triggered around other people believing different facts than them. I think that that's really just coming from a lack of feeling seen, a lot of that.Joe: Yes, or feeling that they are out of control in their world, or they are helpless or that there's forces beyond them that are controlling them or so many emotions are happening there.Brett: Earlier you said this a couple of times, "To be with somebody in their experience without losing yourself." How do you prevent that?Joe: The easiest way to do it, I mean it's just a really simple way. Just put some attention in your own body while you're with somebody. If you happen to be that type that has that deep empathy and you lose yourself in the person, the traditional way people do it is, they become defensive, just whole level of defense, and they are like "No." That works, but it doesn't allow you to be empathetic. It just prevents you from getting lost in them. To be empathetic in a successful way is to maintain a certain amount of your awareness in your own body. Like right now when you're listening to me, you could also be paying attention to the bottom of your feet or you could also be paying attention to how the sound of this podcast feels in your inner ear. Then that allows you to be with yourself while listening to me and being with me and my experience. It's about as easy as that, just putting some attention in your own body.The other more intellectual way is to just be aware of when it's happening. I think that's the biggest challenge for most people is that they just don't know when it's happening. A great sign that it's happening is, if you buy into the story of whatever anybody is saying. Let's say you have a friend and they are like,"Oh, my boyfriend, and dah, dah, dah, dah, and the world and my boss and dah, dah." If you're like, "Yes, you've been victimized and we need to do something about it." Pretty much you're in them now or just the opposite. "These people are bad and dah, dah, dah," yes, then you are in them if you buy into the story.If you are with them emotionally, but you know that the story that they are telling is true within their context, but not true within everybody's context, then you're pretty much not lost in them.Brett: Yes, this sounds very non-intellectual and a lot of people are going to want to try to understand this more. What would you say to folks who want to understand or analyze emotions or just have that tendency or just want to analyze this process?Joe: [laughs] Yes, you are screwed is what I would say. [laughs] I mean we can tell you a good story. We're doing it right now. We are telling you good stories about it, but it's not going to really help. Empathy is a felt sense. It's like, say, you close your eyes and you know where your left foot is. That's called proprioception. It's knowing where your body is in space. How do you describe that logically? You can describe what it is logically potentially, but you can't really describe how to do it logically. Similar with going to the bathroom. How do you know when you are done going to the bathroom? Where is the logic? Are you measuring something? Are you timing it? There's just a felt sense, "Oh, that's done." It's the same thing. Empathy is a felt sense and felt sense can't really be described by the intellect with any kind of accuracy. It's like looking at color. How do you describe seeing green? It requires a label that is arbitrary. Logic isn't really going to do any good here for that, and it's why it's so easy to dismiss things like empathy and energy or whatever words people are using. There's a felt sense to it, and I think you find this in a lot of things, prayer, or meditation. It's really easy to dismiss those things even if you hear the logic behind them, until you feel them. Then once you have a felt sense of what prayer can do, whether you believe in a God or not, or what the felt sense of believing in a God is like, and what the felt sense of not believing in a God is like.All those things, they are a very felt sense. You can argue it night and day, but it's why nobody changes their mind on this stuff until they have a change of felt sense. If you want a logical conversation about empathy, go and feel people. Go and be empathetic and stay in yourself while you do it. That's a far better way, just experiment.Brett: That is true across all of these VIEW podcasts. These are all pointers, intellectual pointers to something that you ultimately need to feel into and experience.Joe: It's why oftentimes in these conversations they could be logically contradictory. It's because we're just creating frameworks that make it easier to feel into or realize something. It's not about telling it like a truth. [chuckles] It's not like there's one way, or there's something that's right here. There's just, “How do you want to be?'', is the question and that question isn't answered with logic.Brett: Just feeling our way beneath any fear response we have, which brings me to another question. We have been talking about losing yourself in the other person, not being empathy as you are defining it. Losing yourself in another person sounds a lot like the flight-fear response that we've discussed before, like fleeing from your experience into theirs to try to fix it. Then you'll dive into a story about why they have that experience. Then you'll create some idea of who's the abuser of the tyranny or the victim. I imagine there's something equivalent that we do in the fight-- in the freeze responses as well. How do these other forms of fear impact our ability to be present with others in their emotions?Joe: Yes, if you think about it from an evolutionary sense, we have fear. If you are really scared, it's really not time to empathize. That part of your brain goes offline and your fear response comes online. If you are in flight, like you said, you're looking at the world around you, the environment, and the actors in that environment, and you're trying to figure out how to manage those. If you are in fight, then immediately that emotion that you're starting to feel in your system is going to make you angry and you are going to try to stop it, like the angry person on a plane when the kid starts crying, and the freeze response is the disassociation. It's like a checking out. You can just watch the eyes kind of haze over. It makes sense when we are in fear, it's really hard to have any empathy at all.Brett: How do you prevent this fear response, or let it pass through you? What do you do with this, when you know a deep bodily patterning to fear in a particular business context or a relationship context?Joe: Yes, you feel it. That's the trick to all of this stuff. It's like, how do you feel the emotion? When I say feel it, I don't mean be taken away by it. You know there's just some saying that I heard the other day, it was beautiful. I think it's from some supreme court judge. I don't know, but it said, "I wouldn't give you a fig for the simplicity on this side of complexity, but I'll give you my whole world for the simplicity on the other side of complexity." What it's speaking to, is that before we start our learning process, things are pretty simple, then we start learning processes that get really complex and somewhere along the line, it gets very simple again. With emotions, it's very simple for a two-year-old, "I feel angry, and so I'm going to yell at you or punch you." Then there's the complexity of actually learning what those emotions are, what's happening, identifying them in your body, feeling them, expressing them in a way that doesn't hurt people, letting them move without resistance, finding out that they're very similar to one another, finding out that you can love all of them. Getting to the other side is, "Wow, you just have emotions again," and they're just fluid, except for, you're not run by them. You're not controlled by them. You're not hurting other people with them.The only way to do that is to actually learn how to feel the fear. If you have a fear response, feel it and invite it in. Don't put it at anybody. Most fear is not wanting to feel something, which is pretty cool when you think about it, like "I'm scared that I'm going to get fired," but if I told you, "Hey, if you get fired, you're going to feel awesome," would you be scared of [chuckles] being fired anymore? It's really us not wanting to have emotions that we're at the core very scared of. When I say feel the fear, I mean welcome it. I really mean like invite it in, breathe it in.Brett: What's a good way to tell in the moment, if we're working on empathy and how do we tell if what we're feeling in the moment is true empathy and not one of these coping mechanisms or distortions? Another one that comes up is sympathy. There's a lot about how sympathy and empathy are different and often confused.Joe: It's a wonderful question. The main thing is, are you putting yourself outside-- It's not quite outside, I guess it's above the other person. The differences in, when you're putting yourself above the other person, like subtle ways. Like you want to fix them, but for you to fix them, you have to be less broken, or you want to help them not feel it, which is assuming that you're not feeling it is the better solution.Brett: That means buying into another story and being that story like, "Oh, yes, fuck that guy."Joe: Exactly. It's just you're with them. When you're with somebody the way that we all want to be with, it's like we're supporting. We are with, but we are not saving. There's this great phrase that, I think it was from an Aboriginal community or a native community in South America, and says, "Hey, if you're here to help me, no, thank you, but if you're here to work together on our mutual freedom, let's get to work." That's really the essence of it.Brett: Another thing that happens a lot is that being empathic is often associated with being manipulable or easily taken for an emotional ride. How could it be that deepening our empathy in the ways that we've been talking about makes us less likely to fall into a fear response and abandon our needs or our boundaries?Joe: You get that fear a lot from people, they're like, "Oh, if I empathize, then I'm going to fall for them." I think that what they're thinking about that person who's fully into the other person's reality and they've lost themselves in it. If you do that, you're more likely to be taken advantage of. If that's what the person wants to do on the other side or is capable of doing, but in all cases, we don't want to feel something, if we're allowing ourselves to be taken advantage of, "I'm going to sell you this magic pill and it's going to make you skinny in two days." If you buy that, it's because you don't want to feel something anymore or you definitely want to feel something.There's something that you want to feel or scared of feeling to allow yourself to be taken advantage of. To have empathy, it really requires you to be willing to feel whatever is arising for yourself and that other person. It actually prevents you from getting taken advantage of, because you're welcoming of everything and you're not trying to get rid of it. It doesn't matter whether you're non-empathetic or like, "I'm not going to feel that person." That means you don't want to feel shit. It means that you can be taken advantage of pretty easily. Just look at the most non-empathetic people on our planet. They are the most likely to be manipulated by politicians or authorities or advertising.Then the other side of that is someone who's totally like in that other person's world. Then they're going to sacrifice themselves for it, but if you're actually like, "Oh, I can feel you, I can be with you, and whatever you throw at me, I can feel I can be with." What makes you need to do anything that is contrary to your truth?Brett: It seems another example of that is in a business relationship where somebody is coming at you with a bunch of emotion and making you responsible for something that you're not responsible for. If you're with them in that emotion, but you're like buying into their full story, then you're going to think that they're entirely right. You're going to lose your boundaries and be taken for a ride.Joe: Absolutely. If somebody thinks that you're bad and you get locked into their emotion, then you start thinking you're bad, that's exactly a great place where you're going to be taken advantage of by somebody who doesn't think they're taking advantage of you. It's by somebody who feels like they're a victim in that moment typically.Brett: Back to what you were saying about the people who are the least empathic are the ones that are most likely to be taken for a ride. Many of us simply don't seem to feel emotions in others as much as we'd like. When we start doing this kind of work is when we start to notice this. When I started to work with you, I experienced certain emotions and others when we were doing exercises. I was watching them as an ant colony. I could see and recognize the patterns, but I wasn't in it with them. Like, "Oh, I didn't have an alcoholic father. That's not my problem." I can see what that does in you, and now I can see your problem. I think I can try to analyze how to fix you. How can we tell the difference between observing someone's experience in a non-empathic way and genuinely being with them?Joe: The body is the telltale sign here. I think I remember that when we were working together and you're doing that, and I believe I came up and shook you a couple of times. Then you could feel a different way. There's a rigidity that happens in the body when you are trying not to feel, no matter how you're trying not to feel, whether it's by creating distance or disassociation, which is somewhat of what you were doing, being the watcher or wanting it to stop, any one of them. It just creates rigidity in the system. This often happens in the belly, shoulders, jaw is locked oftentimes when I do a workshop, like this one. I'll walk around and I'll hit people's jaws, so that like tap their jaws to remind them they're holding all this tight, or their belly is really tight.That's the main way, is to keep your body loose and you'll have to feel it. Our feelings are a muscular thing. Our feelings live in our muscles. If you're the person who was told you can't get angry and you are not angry, all the time now, and anytime anger comes up, you either give it to yourself or suppress it really badly, your muscles have to contract in such a way and become distorted in such a way. It's why there's a whole science behind just watching how somebody walks into a room, you can tell a tremendous amount of their upbringing.Once you know what you're looking for and you've experienced it yourself, the way a person's face is, you can tell what emotions they want to feel, or they don't want to feel. By the way they hunch their shoulders, by the way they tuck their butt, by the way that they hold their lips, how they purse them when certain things come up. It is why we have body language and it's why we have micro-expressions.Brett: Something I've noticed over doing this work is, that I've started to detect when somebody is disconnecting from me in a conversation. I can roll back a little bit and recognize that I had actually disconnected from them, then they're responding to that. It's as though the feeling for them is the difference between being with a good friend who's there with them and their experience, and being with a shrink who's psychoanalyzing them. I think that happens a lot for people who want to be there to help others. A lot of it comes from wanting to deal with their own pain, their own history. I think this happens a lot in therapeutic communities where people take the therapeutic role, but they're really analyzing and they're not being empathic.Joe: It happens definitely in some places there. It happens just with a lot of people who find themselves like the savior or helper of their group of friends. You'll see a lot of that happen. The truth is what-- Sometimes what that is, is they're trying to manage their life by managing other people's emotional states. [chuckles] If you feel happy, I'll be happy. If you're not angry, I'll be happy. If you're in a good mood, I'm in a good mood, and A, it doesn't work and B, you can't change people's emotional states and C it's just far more enjoyable to be with them in the emotional state.Brett: Which comes back to that self empathy thing we're talking about, like, as I've experienced my ability to actually have empathy with others has directly grown from my ability to actually feel that equivalent feeling in myself.Joe: That's right, that's exactly how it works, is our capacity to love the parts of ourselves is directly correlated to our capacity to love the parts of other people and other people in general.Brett: Sometimes being empathic with somebody and holding a highly charged emotion can leave us with a sort of static residue in our system. It can linger or put us on tilt. It takes time for integration, or just leaves us feeling that thing for days. For some people, this is really strong, the empaths. The self-identified empaths will just avoid certain situations, because they are like, “I just can't handle that energy.” How can we navigate this and be deepening our empathy without closing ourselves off or avoiding situations, especially if we are frequently going from one high energy interaction to another in business or something else?Joe: Yeah, I had to learn that really the hard way. For me, when I started coaching people and you know the depth in which the coaching can happen. I would go from that to a conversation with negotiating lawyers over points on a contract, and then back into a coaching session. I had to go into these big, highly charged things, one right after the other, and similarly when I do the seven day really deep retreats, it is like one emotional baseball bat after another in the best possible way. Brett: With real baseball bats sometimes. Joe: Right, but obviously not hurting anyway. It is something I really had to learn. The main thing is avoid it, and the way you avoid it isn't by not feeling the emotion. It is by being in your body. It's just putting some of your attention in your body while you are with other people and their emotions so you're not losing yourself. That's a huge thing. If you do that, as you get better at that, that takes care of about 70% or 80% of the problem. Then the other stuff, it is really about grounding. It's about staying grounded, realizing what's yours and not yours. Your body and your breath is the best way to do this. Releasing whatever emotion residue you have, letting the tears flow, shaking it off, grounding yourself in the different ways people can ground themselves. There are some tai chi moves that can do that, yoga moves that ground you. Brett: Just asking, “Is this mine?”, that was a really good one from earlier. Joe: Yeah, is this mine? There are some things to calm the nervous system down, different breaths. There are all sorts of things you can look into. If you go into any kind of system that says how I ground, no matter what kind of system from functional medicine to this, you can find those things and they work really well. My personal favorites are deep breath, walking barefoot, sitting in silence, meditation. Those things, I feel very grounded in those things. Massage will help me feel grounded probably quicker than anything else. Brett: If you are going straight from a sprint planning meeting where everybody got in an argument, started yelling at each other, and you are carrying that energy straight into a performance review. You really want not to take that out on the person you are reviewing. You have got like five minutes between them. Joe: First, I wouldn't buy into the story you have to. I would say I am not prepared for this meeting right now emotionally, and I would rather give you the actual emotional attention you deserve. Let's postpone it. That's one thing, obviously. For instance, if there's a big fight in the sprint meeting, I would probably enjoy it, because I could be with the anger and energy, and I would say look at all these people who really give a shit. They really care. They really want it done right, or they wouldn't be fighting. Brett: Way better than a bunch of apathetic checked out people. Joe: Exactly, and because I would be enjoying the tension, it would also change the dynamic in the room, the anger, because so much of the fighting that happens is based on a level of resistance, because unresisted fighting feels very much like clarity and decisiveness and a deep care. Again, staying in your own physical sensation is a huge part to prevent it, but I mean literally just shake your body for two or three minutes between the meetings can work. Taking deep breaths can work. Getting in touch with what's aware of your emotional state instead of your emotional state can work. Yawning 10, 20 times in a row can work. Having a quick cry. Crying doesn't take very long. It can be a minute or two. All of those things can work. Brett: Can you tell me a couple of stories about how empathy transformed a situation for you in a business context, something like this or different?Joe: I remember a time when I was fundraising. I can't remember, somewhere in like the $10 million range of fundraising. I just noticed that I was with the person who I was talking to and I noticed that they were getting distant. I just said, “Wow, I notice you are getting distant. I notice something turned you off. What happened?” That is what allowed for a far deeper conversation about what they were looking for, what about my attitude had scared them. We could address it directly. I got to learn that I was objectifying the person probably a little bit more than I would want to. They could learn that they were in a past deal, not in the current deal in front of us. That's a good example of one. Same thing, raising money, I have been able to empathize with the people on the other side of the table to realize they have objectified me or they see me as an employee rather than a partner. I don't want that. I think investors who see their investees as employees, they are dangerous. You can sense it by the way that they keep a distance from you or how they hold themselves emotionally with you instead of the way somebody who holds you as a partner. That has prevented me from having some really bad investors that way. Another example is selling. Oftentimes you see in a sales process a customer goes into resistance, and the salesperson tries to convince them, which puts them into more resistance instead of saying be like, “I notice something is not working for you. What's going on? If this isn't working for you, I don't want you to do it. If it's not working for you, there's a potential there's a misunderstanding so I would like to clarify it. But I don't want you doing something you don't want to do, because then I just have an unhappy customer, and that's not good for business.” You can't really do that unless you can feel the person. Brett: What are some other examples, like working with peers, for example, or within a team?Joe: For instance, I hear something from managers all the time. They are like, “We all had alignment, and then nobody did it. We all agreed. We all sat in the meeting. We all agreed and nobody did it.” I always say, “In that meeting did you feel like they were excited?” “No.” I am like, “Okay, what stopped you from saying I don't feel the excitement in the room. What's preventing the excitement?” You can't do that with anything beside empathy. If you are addressing the emotional reality instead of just the intellectual reality, because people, like I said, make decisions based on emotions. That's why people can all agree to something in a meeting, but if they are emotionally resistant, they are not going to go and do it. You can feel into that resistance, feel into where the excitement is, feel into what's being held, where the rigidity is in the room and clarify it. That makes things far more-- It's the same with product development. Kind of a famous thing where people spend a lot of money on a focus group, and then the focus group goes, “This is great!” Then the product fails, or vice versa has happened too. It is because they are asking them about emotional decisions through the intellect. Sometimes it works, but it's not a perfect translator. It's really feeling your customer. It's really feeling, what makes it important for them to buy it. Henry Ford said, if I gave my customers what they wanted, I would have given them a faster horse, but you put a person behind the car, and you see them drive it and what happens to their face, and you see the way people look at them and what happens in their faces. It's pretty clear who is going to buy what. Brett: I've always thought that one was interesting, the faster horse thing, because it's not really what they wanted. If you asked them what they wanted, if you asked them the solution that would have solved their problem, they might have bought a faster horse, but really what they wanted was better transportation. Joe: Exactly. That's the exact point. The intellect is limited in its capacity to see what the emotions want. Transportation was horse and feet at that time, so that was the limitation of the intellectual part of it. But if you looked at the emotional experience, then you know there are other solutions. Brett: I think this happens in product research all of the time. The research will be conducted in some way where it is like, what do you like better, the red plastic or the blue plastic, and you will get an answer. You will have a meeting where there's a graph that shows how much of the market wants this versus the other thing, but you missed the deeper question and the deeper emotional connection to the product. Joe: That's exactly right. It's why there's a felt sense to great design. You see something designed with beauty and you feel it. You go, “That's beautiful!”, not just beautiful as in looking, but the design is elegant, and there's a felt sense to that. It makes it appealing to us. There's no way you are going to use the intellect to describe that, unless you have been trained in design for years. Brett: How will we see our lives and our work change as we deepen our ability to feel our emotions and empathize with others? Some of these good examples are good examples, but what are some other things that would happen in our lives?Joe: Decisions become more clear, because we are more likely to feel emotions and be happy to feel emotions. We start caring for people instead of care taking them, meaning we are not trying to make them feel better. We are just being in support of them and therefore we get that in return as well. You get more people who are happy to be with you. You also see the people around yourself, and you become more and more empowered. As you stop fearing all of these emotional states, then you just stand in your truth more and more and more. There's just a deeper level of empowerment that happens, for you and for the people around you. One of these things, I was working with a CEO of one of the companies, and he tended towards care taking. Obviously, because he is care taking, there are a lot of people that fall into that victim thing in this company, and there was this victim mentality in the company because he felt responsible for them. As that changed for him, as he could be with people instead of taking care of people, all of a sudden the decisions that could empower them could start to be seen. Instead of coming in and saying, “Here's how we are going to fix the world.”, he would say, “How do you want to fix the world? Clearly, you are unhappy. How are you going to fix it?” He would empower people to fix their own problems, and it changed everything for his company. Brett: You can just use my name when you are talking about me. Joe: That wasn't you. You were not the person in my mind when I was saying that. Brett: I know, but I just felt it as like yeap, that's exactly been my journey. What else happens? A lot of times when we do these kinds of practices, there are shifts in our lives that are short-term uncomfortable or destabilizing. Is there anything like that that would happen with practicing deeper empathy?Joe: As the emotions start to get felt and the resistance isn't worked through, it can be a bit turbulent. It's not the emotions that are uncomfortable. It's the resistance to them. There can be a little bit of turbulence. There can be moments of tears where you would prefer there weren't tears. They don't happen very often. They are pretty rare. People are like I am going to be crying all over the place. It is like I cried at this one place, and actually somebody came up to me and said something sweet. Yeah, it can be a little bit turbulent. There's also this idea that if I allow my emotions, then they are going to take over me and control me. It's the projection you have been controlling your emotions, so you think they are going to control you. It doesn't happen like that. I have seen anybody at all of the thousands of people I've seen go through this process, I've never seen any of them who are like, “I am controlled by emotions now.” Brett: Damn you, Joe. Joe: Exactly. It has never happened. I would say that. The biggest thing is what we have really harped on, on this talk-- If you empathize with losing yourself, that can be really damaging. Learning how to be in your own body while you are empathetic is so critical. I just even recommend for the rest of the week, put some of your attention into your physical body during every conversation. See what that does to your world. It will rock your world, if you do that for every conversation for a week. It will just rock your world.I just say it's important to take it slow. I would say if the emotional tube is kinked, just be gentle with the unkinking. Take it slow. Brett: There's the wisdom in taking it slow, and there's also another side of that, that I can see. A lot of times these emotions are stacked on each other. You get beneath one of them, and you let yourself feel it. You might get yourself to feel the anger, but then if you don't feel the hurt underneath the anger, then a completely different thing starts controlling you. You get the disruptive thing going on in your life, and you are entering another pattern. There's like being gentle with yourself and taking it slow, and then there's being curious about how far down it goes and what's beneath this one I am not feeling. Joe: I would definitely agree with that. To think there's an end is no good. It's not going to be servicing your journey at all, so seeing it as endless, being curious about it, being vulnerable with yourself about your emotional state, being impartial with how you feel. You can use all of those tools, and use it for this empathy. It might upheave and you might find yourself bawling, crying and shaking. All of that can happen while being gentle with yourself. Brett: What are some ways empathy can go wrong? What does it look like if we are trying to be empathic, we aren't quite there so it is shallow or it is false? How could it be used directly as a weapon if somebody starts using these practices and they are like, “I could actually use this to manipulate people? What happens then? How does that look?”Joe: Creepy, you can see it. The difference between a good interviewer and a bad interviewer is one is using real empathy and one is faking it, and you can tell. It makes your skin crawl on some level. It might work for some people, but it is only going to work on a small percentage of them where empathy creates connection consistently. You can use empathy as a tool. They do all these skills that are based on that, mimic their body language, nod yes when people speak, and blah, blah, blah. Brett: Mirror the last three words of the thing they said. Joe: Use their name in the front of sentences, and blah, blah, blah. You can do all of that stuff, but if you are not in empathy, it comes off as false, fake, and gross. We have all been with that person, but if-- you could do all of that stuff with deep empathy and then it's actually quite appealing. It is really the empathy that is appealing.I think the reason those tools work when they do work, sometimes is, because they actually hack the mind into empathy. Brett: They are disarming, and if the intent is to disarm, then it can get you closer to it, to disarm yourself that is, not to disarm the other person as a trick. So what are a couple of summary bullet points on how all of what we have discussed would apply to a VIEW conversation and practice with the rest of this course?Joe: One of the things is you can ask questions. You can ask how, what questions that are based on nonverbal cues, on empathy. “Wow, it feels like you distanced yourself right there. What happened?”You can say, “It looks like you don't agree with that. What's going on? What's happening with you right now? How did that feel?” You can ask questions like that, and people generally stay up on the intellectual and won't ask questions on the moetional. Brett: And in a curious way. “I saw you disconnect there. I saw you disconnect there. I know it. Tell me.”Joe: Empathy as an attack. That's right. Also, basically, you'll notice that, when you have empathy with someone, they are more likely to be open, because they feel that you are with them. You can't do anything to show it to them. You are just empathetic and it just occurs. Like I said earlier, there's this creepy thing where people know you are managing them, and when they do, they back off. You don't have as much data. You don't get as much truth. You don't get to see the problem as it is. You don't get their ideas for solutions. With empathy, you get all that stuff. You get more data, and more ideas for solutions. Brett: Or the solutions you get from them are actually their solutions to get you to stop managing them. Joe: Exactly. Also, if you are in empathy, you can catch yourself being partial. If you are using empathy and you see somebody have an issue with you, you can be like, “I was being partial. I will catch my own partiality from being empathetic to their response to me.” Brett: Like the way I was describing earlier, when I catch somebody rolling back, you are like, “Wait a minute, I see what I did there.” Joe: Exactly. Brett: As you close, I would love for you to tell us about an impactful experience you have had, that caused the deepest increase in your empathy for others in the shortest amount of time. Joe: I want to give you two. The first one was, I was having this experience where I realized where I really just did not want to be with people who were having meaningless conversations. It was so annoying. “I was driving 65 miles an hour.” “Really, 65?” “Yeah, 65 miles an hour down to Santa Barbara.” Uh, it was so frustrating for me. I was like “What is it that I don't want to feel? What is it that's happening for them, for me that I don't want to feel?” I just opened myself up to it. It was awkward. I would be weeping in these conversations that were seemingly benign. After two or three weeks of that, maybe a month of that, the personal recognition that came through it was so critical to my sense of self, that I had to be valuable. The idea that I might be spending time where I wasn't valuable, it was so hard on my system I didn't want to feel that kind of sense of worthlessness. That was an internal thing. Then to have the freedom to be worthless. “Oh yeah, I am happy to be worthless, and I am happy to be of value.” Having that freedom was tremendous. Then my capacity to immediately be with people who were having that level of conversation happened, and what I realized is, even in that level of conversation, there are different forms of connection going on. There are different ways people are connecting that aren't verbal, that aren't about the immediate intellectual thing that's up front. This one wasn't as quick, but it was bigger for me, which was getting in touch with Hand in Hand Parenting, which is really one of the main tools I learned empathy from. One of the tools in that is, it is called Parenting by Connection, and it allows parents to be deeply connected with kids, kids to feel deeply connected. The thought process is when kids feel connected, they naturally want to behave in a way that´s enriching for themselves and the family. All of the tribulations that we feel from children is just them being out of connection, and so how do you get them back into connection?One of the tools, they have five very simple tools. One of the tools is, stay listening. It's like allowing the kids to have temper tantrums, and being with them in that temper tantrum and even encouraging it to move through and making sure it doesn't get stuck. I was not good with a lot of my emotions when I started doing Hand in Hand parenting. I got good with them really quick. All of a sudden, I have a tremendous amount of emotional freedom I didn't have before. All of a sudden, my decision making got so clear, because I couldn't be with my child's temper tantrum until I could be with my own. I couldn't be with my child's anger until I could be with my own or their tears until I could be with my own. That process of empathizing and being with my children gave me so much more freedom. Brett: How did these two stories impact your ability to have value for people? Joe: I don't care. I mean if I were to look at it, seemingly I am more able to be more valuable to them, because I can be with them in a deeper way now, and I am not judging them or myself. That seems like that's probably more valuable. The bigger answer is it doesn't matter to me anymore. Brett: I love that paradox, the driving wound of your first story to just not caring anymore, actually having that impact. Joe: It was a great conversation. Thanks so much, Brett. Brett: Yeah, thank you. Thanks for listening to The Art of Accomplishment. If you enjoyed what you heard today, please subscribe & rate us in your podcast app. We would love your feedback, so feel free to send us questions and comments. To reach out to us, join our newsletter, or check out our courses at artofaccomplishment.com.Links/notes: "If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses." ― Henry Ford“For the simplicity on this side of complexity, I wouldn't give you a fig. But for the simplicity on the other side of complexity, for that I would give you anything I have.” ― Oliver Wendell Holmeshttps://www.handinhandparenting.org/ - a nonprofit that provides parents with the tools and support they need to listen and connect with their children.
On this episode of the Quiet Light podcast, we speak with Dillon Carter about his path to launching a wholesale CRM, why he pivoted to a slighted different business model, and how his company helps their clients succeed. Dillon Carter is one of the founders of Aura, a wholesale CRM that helps you with repricing, managing wholesale suppliers, and growing your Amazon business. Tune in to hear our interesting discussion! Topics: How he floundered before finding his true passion. Launching a wholesale-based CRM software, before pivoting into repricing software. Explaining wholesale. Working with an antiquated business model. What happens when everyone is using Aura at the same time. How Aura works. Resources: Aura Dillon Carter's Website Quiet Light Transcription: Joe: Hey folks, Joe Valley here from Quiet Light Brokerage and the Quiet Light Podcast sponsored by Quiet Light Brokerage, oddly enough. Everybody here is an entrepreneur. We've all built, bought, and sold our own online businesses. I sold my last e-commerce business in 2010. Things have changed a little bit since then. We've got to Dillon Carter on the podcast today. Dillon is one of those changes. He was; well, let's see, 2010, you were still in high school back then, weren't you? Dillon: I graduated in 2010, yeah. Joe: That makes me an old guy or you very good at what you do at such a young age. Probably just that, I'm going to call at Syed Balkhi right now. Syed I think might have just turned 30 years old and referred a client over to me so I was just chatting with him earlier today. Incredibly impressive at a young age and I'm looking at your LinkedIn profile, I'm looking at Vendrive, I'm looking at Aura Repricing and, man, you've got a lot going on in your life. Can you help people that are listening, who you are and what you do and summarize or give more detail to that summary that I just gave? Dillon: Sure. So I started out graduating high school not knowing what in the world I wanted to do, like most entrepreneurs. So, I kind of floundered for about four to five years, just testing a bunch of different things. I found myself being a personal trainer, working ridiculous hours and realizing I did not like a service based business because that's kind of difficult to scale. I realized okay, physical products is something that could theoretically scale in my mind at that time so I started playing around with the Amazon FBA model. Like most people, you get started with retail or online arbitrage, right? Low capital requirement, you could kind of test the waters. I did that and eventually me and the GM of the gym I was training at did not see eye to eye so I decided, you know what, let's go ahead and put myself in a corner and make it work. And so, eventually I decided retail arbitrage, although was better than being able to scale my time so I could not scale in the way that I wanted the business to. So like most FBA sellers, I decided to either go the wholesale or the private label route. I chose wholesale. It made a little bit more sense to me; low capital requirement, I could start paying the bills immediately because it was certainly an issue that I was faced with. I went that route and really spent a handful of years just crafting what wholesale meant to me, how I approached it. At the same time, I decided to go back to school full time for college. So it was one of those lingering aspects of my life where I was like do I really want to be that statistic where you took a few semesters, you kind of dropped out, and never went back. I'm like, no, I'm tripling down on my life at this point, no holds barred, and so that's what I did. And then eventually I met my co-founder, James. We eventually launched www.Vendrive.com, which is wholesale-based CRM software and then pivoted actually funny enough into repricing software. And that's our primary focus at the moment. So I've kind of traversed this world in a few different ways. I launched a podcast or two here and there. I shared all the knowledge that I've gained along the way and the podcast and blog posts and our Facebook group I mean, really just somewhat built an audience just teaching everything for free and I learned a lot from that. It's been a long journey, so to speak, but I feel like I'm just getting started. Joe: That's the way to do it. You help, help, and help some more. Give it all for free and make some friends along the way. It's amazing what you do when you help others, how it comes back to help your own business. In fact, we had Steven Pope on our podcast. I think he's www.MyAmazonGuy.com and so did you and he connected the two of us together. Strangely enough, I told you at the beginning of this call or before we hit record, that I sent a message out to the team that we just don't have enough wholesale guys; men, women, people, individuals, entrepreneurs on the podcast, because we have not historically sold a ton of wholesale businesses. But it's a funny thing, I come from the private label world. I didn't sell on Amazon. When I sold my e-commerce business it really wasn't much focused on Amazon. I did after that, but it was always my own products, always private label and some people look down on wholesale. At this point in my career; not that I'm going to change what I do, but if I were, I might look at wholesale before I look at private label. I might look at an agency before I make a private label. I might do a lot of different things. I might even look at content. But why don't you, for the sake of those that are listening, that are not as versed in it as you are define what wholesale is versus private label and how it works? Dillon: Sure. Wholesale is a very antiquated business model and I don't say that in a negative tone. What I mean by that is you are buying low and you are selling higher. You're literally finding listings on Amazon that are already doing well and you are doing what we call reverse sourcing. So you're finding listings already doing well, finding those brands, those products, and then you are going to the brand to open a wholesale account to purchase in bulk like pallets and stuff like that. It's actually very straightforward. There's nothing crazy to it. The difference here because you made a good point that a lot of people don't view the wholesale business model as a sexy business model. That's not your quote but that's kind of what I hear and you hear it a lot. And I think the reason why you have not sold a whole lot of wholesale Amazon business models is because the multiples are not that great. So, when I went back to school, I actually went to be finance major and so my focus was actually M&A. So doing a lot of valuations, some discounted cash flows, kind of nerdy stuff. But when you look at it, those businesses are easy to replicate. There's not a lot that you're really protecting, right? There's not a lot that I can really build up and get a decent multiple on. And so, I think they're very great in the sense of I can get cash flow positive within 30 days if you kind of know what you're doing and you're being serious about it. Right. Whereas private label is going to take a little bit more time. That's an investment for the future. I view a wholesale business model as a cash flow business where private label is more something you're looking to expand the value of your equity over a long period of time and potentially exit and so, it depends on what you're optimizing for. Joe: There's definitely a difference between the two, because the private label businesses that are growing like crazy, those folks are not taking a whole lot of money out of the business. They're constantly putting it back into inventory to try to keep up. But you said you said sourcing by looking out in the marketplace; Amazon, if that's what we're talking about, to see what other people are selling and then sourcing the product from the brand owner. So, we're talking about brands that have multiple sellers on Amazon in this particular case and you are then going to compete against the other sellers on Amazon as well, correct? Dillon: That's correct. Absolutely. Joe: All right, that doesn't sound very attractive. How do you compete against the others? How do you do a better job on your listings and your ratings and reviews and your pricing and things of this nature? Dillon: This is where it becomes an antiquated business model, in my opinion. And again, not in a negative tone where it comes down to relationships. So, a lot of people are jumping into the Amazon space want that lifestyle business, right. What a lot of people kind of project as this is what it's like to sell on Amazon. The reality of it is it's a lot of phone calls. It's a lot of old school relationship building. It's understanding that… Joe: We all have to do that. Dillon: I know right. Joe: It's now like rocket science. Yeah, it sounds much simpler than trying to figure out the thickness of a corrugated box that you're going to import from China. Dillon: 100%. I've said for the past three or four years that wholesale is simple, not easy. It's simple enough. I mean, we can sketch the entire business model on a napkin, and I've done that. It's not easy because it's a lot more work. Now, that's not a bad thing, right? This is not sending a bunch of emails to manufacturers in China and playing that kind of game. This is actually jumping on the phone and having a real conversation with somebody. What's different about wholesale and why it's uncomfortable for a lot of people is that you are essentially doing a sales job; you are calling a brand to sell them on allowing you to give them your money. It's a bit backwards, right? But that's kind of what it is. And so a lot of people get stuck where they jump into these relationships and they're trying to get these accounts and they're like I keep getting denied. Why won't they take my money? I'm trying to give them money. And what a lot of people have to learn, first and foremost, is the value add that you are bringing to the table is not your money, it's the relationship. What else can you do for that brand? Because what you're not doing is necessarily just jumping on the listing and taking another slice of the pie. You're strategically looking to increase the sales volume here, right? You're looking at running PPC campaigns, you're looking at listing optimization, and you're looking at how can I help my supplier negate other sellers. I keep going below minimum advertised price so, mat price. You're looking at this as a very strategic business model if you're doing it correctly and I think a lot of people view it too simplistically. And again, it is simple, but when you approach it from an operation standpoint as too simple, I think you negate the requirements that enable you to be successful. Does that make sense? Joe: Yeah, they're looking at the wrong things. Dillon: 100%. Joe: They're not looking at the most important thing, which is the relationship. With wholesale accounts, with wholesale clients, you've had friends; I mean, you're in the circles, people that you work with. How many wholesale brand relationships do they have or have to have; sorry, I know this is an unanswerable question with accuracy, in order to really make a good living out of it? Dillon: Sure. If you want to replace a job, the way I source, and the criteria I look for purchasing inventory, which is not super complex by any stretch of the imagination, 10 to 12 SKUs is pretty solid. I think you can get to a point where you're actually replacing job income and at least paying the bills. The cool thing about; so you have the spectrum, right, where private label is going to have like a handful; like a small amount of SKUs, in my opinion. One to two, obviously, you're trying to grow that over time, but if you look at the average it's probably a little bit less. Then on the other end of that spectrum, you have like retail and online arbitrage where it's like thousands upon thousands of SKUs. Wholesale is kind of somewhere in the middle, but leaning more towards the private label route. So a handful of great relationships is enough. You don't need to have 30 plus relationships. I think that's where you get really, really big but you don't really need that. You could do a quarter million in revenue with six to seven SKUs if they're the right kind of SKUs because it is repeatable and scalable. Joe: And what are your margins on that? What's left over for you at the end of the day, if you're doing a quarter million in revenue? Because if it's a private label, that's kind of doing a quarter million in revenue, there's not a lot left over. I guess maybe upwards of 50,000 maybe. But they're taking that money and they're putting it right back in inventory so there's not a lot of cash flow in that situation. Dillon: Yeah, it can vary. I've seen people have some pretty high margins. I've seen people take really, really slim margins. I look for at least 30% in gross margin. Obviously, the business expenses that's kind of going to be situational. But if I could do 30% outside of the business expenses, that's pretty good in my opinion. I think it's scalable. Joe: This is after Amazon fees. Dillon: That's correct. Joe: Okay, that's pretty good. That's pretty solid, actually. What about exclusivity? At what point do you get to be exclusive? Because in my view, that's going to make the business more sellable and have value. So, you're not only building cash flow but you're also building equity. Obviously you got to do better than everybody else and be really important to that relationship. Is that it? Dillon: For the most part, yeah. What's funny is it is that relationship and it's understanding that it just takes time; like any great relationship, it just takes time. So a lot of sellers jump in and say, hey, I just got this account, how do I get exclusive? You wait. You do a great job, you become their biggest buyer, you work with them, you add more value than just your money, and then you start to have that conversation over time. I had a friend, she started her Amazon business, it was doing well, and she followed up every two weeks for a year just to get an account. And not just like, hey, how's everything going? These are in-depth emails of, hey, I noticed this on your listing here's what I would recommend you do and gave them all of that knowledge. And eventually they let you know that that's a lot of work, what would it take for you to do that for us? Give me the account and I want exclusive rights. They go, you know what, let's test it for two weeks and if it if it pans out, we'll absolutely give you the exclusive rights. And she's got it now. Joe: Excellent. Yeah, I know that's the trick. Just again, help them. It is a ton of work so give it all the way and then they realize I really do understand the value of having you do it for me. Let's talk about competing on Amazon for the buy box and what Aura Repricing does because it's so very different than what most people have heard on this podcast because most people are content owners, SaaS owners, private label brand owners. They're not wholesale. Dillon: Yeah, so roughly 82% of organic sales come via the buy box. So that buy box is just that where you go as a consumer and hit one click purchase. That's what we call the buy box. When you're competing with other sellers on the same listing, you're not trying to optimize your listing to beat the other listings. That goes out the door. Now, it's about value. In terms of your price it obviously comes down to your competitive advantage in terms of getting cost lower from your supplier hence relationships matter. It comes down to seller feedback a lot of the times. So what we're having to do is stay competitively priced 24/7. And by the way, these things are changing every few seconds. Private label, you're used to set the price and maybe every now and then we'll change it. Joe: Yeah. Dillon: No, 24/7 here and so some of our larger users that have a few hundred thousand SKUs that are actively repricing, we're doing tens of thousands of price changes per second just for them. So, what we're having to do is say you can't do it yourself, it doesn't scale so let's hand that over to a computer with an algorithm with a set of rules that can say, you know what, the price just changed let's react to that as quickly as possible. And if doing so, we increased the amount of time you're in the buy box, which increases the amount of sales you get. Joe: What happens if you've got three products in the buy box, they're all the same brand, and two out of the three are using Aura Repricing? Dillon: Yes, we get this question a lot; what if everybody's using Aura at the same time? At that point, it comes down to two major things. One, your strategy because you have some control over that. Some people are willing to be more aggressive than others. And then number two, what's really more important, in my opinion, is your cost. A lot of sellers make the assumption that we got the same costs. I know what I paid for so therefore, I theoretically know what you paid for it. That's not true. I could have lower cost because I have a better relationship or I have more capital to play with. So, I'm purchasing in larger quantities, in which case I'm getting quantity breaks on my cost, in which case I can be more aggressive in my price. So, it comes down to those major two things. Joe: Okay, what else can people that are a wholesaler do to improve their rankings, listings, and so on and so forth on Amazon? Dillon: Yeah, one of the things we've seen; forecasting with wholesale is very important, just like it is with private label. However, it's a little bit different. So, if I'm not mistaken, a lot of private label people are purchasing like three months' worth of inventory because you have a lead-time for manufacturing. For us, it's like every two to four weeks we're placing restock orders. So, we're trying to get dense from when the capital goes out of the business to when it comes back with profits as small as possible. Joe: So, it's two to four weeks if you just average to three I mean that's a quarter of the working capital that you need for a private label business. Dillon: 100%. So, we're looking at stuff like that. What's important there was a lot of forecasting won't factor in regional distribution. And what I mean by that is a lot of times you can take a SKU that you're selling on and you have repeat sales and let's say you're moving a hundred units per month like clockwork. You testing increasing that to 200 can actually have a larger distribution in terms of where your SKUs are in the country and now you're starting to get access to what's called a regional buy box and you actually start to see a little bit more sales from that. I didn't believe it at first and then I tested it with a few selling friends, and sure enough, they increased sales by just doing that. So you don't have just the one global buy box, although that's what we're able to focus on as developers. You also have a regional buy box. Joe: And Aura Repricing can have an impact on that? Dillon: That's correct. That comes basically down to where is your inventory today, like right now. Joe: And how do you control that again with Amazon? Dillon: Increased inventory. Joe: Just spend more money and have more inventory and then you're going to… Dillon: Yeah, it's a test for sure. Joe: And you can do that over time, obviously, if you have personal overhead. Dillon: Absolutely. Joe: Okay, tell me about Aura Repricing and when did you launch it? To me, honestly, the development of this must have been crazy. I mean, you did finance and M&A; is your business partner a coder or a developer? Dillon: Yeah, so me and my co-founder, James, met actually via Instagram. So, we were both wholesale sellers, separate of each other and we just started to meet up once a week via Skype back in the day and just, hey, what's going on? What's new? He was kind of helping me scale my business because his was already at seven. Mine was at six figures so he was helping me understand some cash flow stuff that I needed to learn. And eventually he was like, hey, by the way, I'm at UMass and I am an engineering student. I'm already starting to work on some side projects. Do you want to partner up? And that's when we started to launch Vendrive. So, Aura, the beta took roughly eight to nine months of him by himself, because I'm not an engineer. I'm not a coder. I can script some stuff and that's about it. Joe: Yeah. Dillon: So that was him pretty much working 80, 90 hour weeks for eight to nine months, just grinding it out and we got the beta up. We tested with 20 to 30 users just from day one just to get that feedback loop going. Launched my winter break between semesters in December of 2018 and then we launched that and I had 50 users paying and we just started a feedback loop and scaling from there. Joe: And you both finished college? Dillon: We did. Yeah, we both finished college at the same time and now we're actually; we were fully remote. I was in Florida, now we're in Boston and we have our first like large office which you can see back here. We have the walls painted and the whiteboard is up, and we're actually hiring three engineers in the next month or two. Joe: Very cool. That's a great success story, man. Dillon: Yeah, thanks. Joe: I know that you said he was in college and you were in college at same time but developing it in college; doing seven figures in revenue while in college is pretty impressive. So let's say he's doing a million, he's doing maybe 300,000 in cash flow, in profit, even if you divide by two while a student in college, that's pretty damn impressive. Dillon: It's not bad. Yeah, it's definitely not bad. That's the thing about wholesale is I tell people, it can be at whatever scale you want. I think it's difficult to really take a private label brand and just be like, oh, I just kind of want to make a little extra cash. When I started mine again, I went back to school, and I was like if this thing just pay my bills and allows me to focus on school full time and get through that and not take six years to get through, it's kind of a solid win. And to be honest, that's kind of where I got it and I was happy with that. And then once I graduated, it's like cool now, we can go full force. And really I did like two semesters before because Aura started to really scale and outpace itself, which was awesome. But yeah, I think it's cool thing. Joe: Let's get back to the repricing part, because if I'm the wholesale owner, how am I going to work with Aura and Aura Repricing to determine how low it goes? Is this simply a matter of math and numbers and what my relationship is; how does it work? Dillon: So you have two major ways of setting a min max. We always require a minimum and a maximum price. This is the range of which Aura is allowed to play within because we don't want to go too low and not too high and all that good stuff. You can manually set that. Some people have their own formulas, some people just take current buy box price and reduce that by 30%. What I typically recommend is the second option, which is an automated option. So, you can set that based on an ROI. We'll actually import your cost that you give us or you're using a tool like Inventory Lab to store that. So, we'll import those and you'll say a minimum I want 20% ROI. What we'll do is we'll factor in your cost and then the Amazon fees, obviously factoring in that 20% ROI and say, okay, here's your calculated min price. We'll automatically set that for all your SKUs. So we create different strategies and those strategies can be assigned to a group of SKUs, one SKU, your entire account; it's really up to you. And then however you want to set those min max prices, you can definitely do that. Joe: That's pretty impressive. Dillon: Yeah. Joe: When it comes to wholesale, again, I'm a little ignorant on it, because it's probably a well-known brand; I would assume or a well enough known brand are people searching for the brand name and therefore there's not as much sponsored ads or are people doing sponsored advertising as well? Dillon: This is what's interesting, I know ads are very prominent and expensive for private label. What's interesting is when I started testing paid ads on wholesale, they were actually very cheap. And for whatever reason, the brands themselves do not seem to be doing that on Amazon. They don't. They just let the sales happen and they don't progress with it, period. The opportunity is that it's less competitive because from my personal experience, what I've done is I've created ads targeting the brand name and the product name and not the type of product. So the proverbial garlic fresh, right. Joe: [Inaudible 00:22:36.5]. Dillon: Yeah, but we're going to do as an example, Nike, blah, blah, blah. When you're doing that they're super cheap and very scalable. I had a product that retailed for $329.95, it was costing me an additional $5 per sale via paid ads, and they're already doing 30 to 40 units per month organically. But that netted me $55 net profit so minus the $5 we're still doing 50 bucks. So I'm able to increase my volume. I'm trading five bucks for 50 bucks at this point. Joe: Sure. Dillon: [inaudible 00:23:11.3] oh, that's expensive, five bucks. I'm like, not really when you do the math on it. Joe: Absolutely, you're paying five bucks and you're getting 50 bucks back. That's a good return. Dillon: Yeah, I'm not even very good at it. That's the important part. Joe: Are you doing any video ads; do you have the options to do whatever you want or can you not do video ads for wholesale? Dillon: I've yet to see any restrictions on that. I haven't done the video ads. There's this weird dichotomy where there's some things you should be willing to do for your brands and then there are some things that are just going to cost too much. It's very ROI driven. So, some brands are going to do that themselves and that's going to help you organically. Some sellers, if you have the right exclusive agreement, it can make sense. It just comes down to the math where it really will... Joe: We just had Judson Morgan on from www.Butter.la and he talked everybody through how to do videos from your iPhone or a Pixel, and it's not a lot of dough. An unboxing, if you will. You're making it natural and normal and he talked about the lighting and all that stuff. That's what I'm talking about. He talked about the bump in conversion rate with videos, either video ads or videos in your listings. I know that with private label, they get six or seven; maybe six to eight images that they're allowed to have and one of them can be video. Normally it's pushed to the very end. Do you do that with wholesale as well, the video, the unboxing, and things of that nature? Dillon: You do to a certain degree. So, part of the value add to the brand, again, is not just your capital. It's looking at where the listing itself can be optimized. A lot of sellers are hesitant to do that stuff because all that work is not just coming back to you. It's coming back to all the other sellers. And so that's where it gets kind of interesting, where there's some growth hacks, so to speak, that are only going to come back to you as the seller. So you're not really increasing competition's volume as well. I'm of the opinion if it raises all boats, I'm still probably willing to do it because I'm still getting a positive ROI on that it just depends on the person. So, I'm a huge fan of a growth strategy that I kind of created actually from Amazon affiliate sites. So, I was looking at different brokers. I'm just looking at what's for sale in the Amazon space. I'd like to keep a look at multiples and what's being sold. I was like, you know what, these Amazon affiliate sites are genius. They're there to make money and move inventory because that's when they get paid. So then I said, well, what happens when I start to reach out to these site owners and say, you know what, I sell a grill thermometer, you have a bestbarbecue.com Amazon affiliate site, what happens when I get you to replace your $200 grill thermometer with my $329 one, does that actually increase sales? And if we can structure the URL correctly, all of the sales are coming straight to me, not just anybody who happens to be in the buy box at the moment. It turns out you can. So, there's some more strategy there in terms of growth but that's where you have to really think through the relationship you have. If it's a very short term seasonal relationship, I may not be willing to go to that extent because it is a lot of work. However, if it's a brand that I want to work with for a long period of time, that's different. And I've always told people to approach it that way. If I don't in my mind think that I can work with a brand for the next 12 plus months, I really don't see the point in it. I'm not opportunistic in the way I approach wholesale. Joe: You're blowing my mind that you're 28 years old, I got to tell you that. Dillon: I appreciate it. Thank you. Joe: All right. So, Aura Repricing, anybody that does any wholesale got to go to Aura Repricing. Check it out and see what Aura repricing could do for them. Let's talk also about the two podcasts; I think you've got two podcasts or is it one? Anything else you want people to know about you and things of that nature before we wrap it up here? Dillon: Sure. So, I kind of got sick of the $3,000 courses. I'm not anti-course by any stretch of the imagination. Joe: We just launched one for $3,000. Dillon: So, I decided I was going to share everything that I knew, which is I'm not an expert in my opinion, but I know some stuff and so I'm willing to share everything that I do know. So if you go to www.Vendrive.com/blog, I've pretty much written some crazy in-depth articles on wholesale in terms of overcoming objections with suppliers, the cash flow management of it; all the fun nitty-gritty stuff. And of course, Wholesale Made Easy, which is the podcast. I'm not running that active anymore. That was structured to be like an evergreen podcast where it's not short-term tactics. It's foundational stuff like we're talking about here that if you listen to it a year from now, it's still going to apply. We do have the new podcast called Welcome to Growth, which is me and my co-host, Jonathan. It's way more casual and it's more just me and him going back and forth every Thursday on different topics. Joe: That's where I heard your first. I'm like I like these guys, they don't have any scripts at all. It's perfect for me. Dillon: We literally show up that morning. We might text the night before and say, hey, here's three topics that I would like to talk about. We'll pick one and just riff on it for about an hour. Joe: Yeah, it's awesome and you're a wealth of knowledge. We need to talk more about wholesale again someday. Thanks for coming on the podcast. I appreciate it. Dillon: Yeah, thanks for having me.
I sat down with my yogi Alex Schimmel from LifeTime Fitness here in Phoenix, AZ. Because I believe the health benefits of yoga are too important to ignore or at a minimum, spread the word, I had to have Alex on to share his knowledge with all of you, my listeners. If there is no other exercise you ever do, you MUST do yoga to stimulate every area of your body. It's amazing how using your own body weight in various poses, can make you really strong and get you in the best shape of your life. ********** Styles of Yoga taught at Life Time Fitness FIRE (HIIT)- Experience our new high-tempo format that blends intense anaerobic exercise with recovery periods ROOT (Fundamentals) - Start here and begin to understand yoga movement while holding the body in long basic poses SOL (Guided) - SOL is a guided yoga format that provides direction throughout from supportive teachers in a dynamic vinyasa format FLOW (Vinyasa) - Try our new guided practice where your teacher provides more deliberate cues throughout class SURRENDER (Yin) - Experience long connective tissue stretches and meditative breathing for greater breathing and self-acceptance BE (Meditation) - Develop a conscious, calm mind through meditation with a focus on breathing Alex's Links:"Inspire The F*ck Out of People" - eBook Presale Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/theyogageneral/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/alexander.schimmel.5 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/alexander-schimmel-374484a/ Email: schimmelyoga@gmail.com Alex Schimmel - Life Time LifePower Yoga Boutique Manager LifePower Yoga Teacher Training Faculty LifePower Yoga Master Trainer https://youtu.be/vo_c_5pILKU ********** Podcast Music By: Andy Galore, Album: "Out and About", Song: "Chicken & Scotch" 2014 Andy's Links: http://andygalore.com/ https://www.facebook.com/andygalorebass ********** If you enjoy the podcast, would you please consider leaving a short review on Apple Podcasts/iTunes? It takes less than 60 seconds, and it really makes a difference in helping to convince hard-to-get guests. For show notes and past guests, please visit: https://joecostelloglobal.com/#thejoecostelloshow Subscribe, Rate & Review:I would love if you could subscribe to the podcast and leave an honest rating & review. This will encourage other people to listen and allow us to grow as a community. The bigger we get as a community, the bigger the impact we can have on the world. Sign up for Joe's email newsletter at: https://joecostelloglobal.com/#signup For transcripts of episodes, go to https://joecostelloglobal.com/#thejoecostelloshow Follow Joe:Twitter: https://twitter.com/jcostelloglobal Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jcostelloglobal/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/jcostelloglobal/ YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCUZsrJsf8-1dS6ddAa9Sr1Q?view_as=subscriber Transcript Alex Schimmel: Joe: Ok. Today, my guest is Alex Schimmel. Alex and I met over at Lifetime Fitness in the Biltmore area. And Alex is the yoga manager over there. And I was super excited to take as many yoga classes as I could. And luckily, Alex is the person over there that we really fell in love with. The way he teaches is his demeanor, everything about what he does. So, Alex, I'm really excited to have you here. And thanks for taking the time to do this. Alex: Yeah, thanks for having me, Joe. A pleasure. Looking forward, Joe: Yeah. Alex: You get to know each other better. Joe: Yeah, man. So my first. What I want to do first is just get to where we are today in the sense of how you got into this. I would I would assume that, you know, you took yoga like me, and then it became more of a passion. And then you became a yogi. But what can you go to when you started? Why you did it? How long you did it? Before you decided to make the jump to be a yogi. And and then we'll go from there. Alex: Yeah, for sure. So I'll give the abbreviated version, because it could be pretty long, but so my mom's a yoga teacher, so I've had yoga in my life, like, forever. I remember being a young kid maybe like seven or eight years old, and my friends would be playing wild in my house. And my mom would like eat. Guide us through relaxation in my living room. Like, you know, just to get us to probably calm down is it's probably not just to show us yoga, but to help us chill out a little bit. And so I used to go to my mom's yoga classes and I was like a little kid. And then my teenage years kind of rebelled against it. I thought the yoga was something that just like women do. Just people my mom's age did. So I wasn't really too open to it. And then towards the end of high school, I started to just get more like into spirituality. I read some spiritual books as I was given a book, The Seven Spiritual Laws of Success, by Deepak Chopra. And there's a lot of yoga philosophy in it. And it was things that I really like. It made sense to me. And it was the first time that because I wasn't really religious, I grew up Jewish, but not really like strong in religion. Alex: And those that that book and those spiritual teachings, it just it just resonated with me. And so that kind of open my eyes a little bit. And then I had an injury. I was a baseball player in college and I hurt my shoulder just playing like backyard football. And to kind of help heal that, I started to get into yoga, go to my mom's yoga classes again and. Soon after. I noticed that yoga was like. Not only did it make me feel better in my body, it also really helped me balance my schoolwork and just help me. Like I felt like it was just making my life better. And a lot of ways. And then my mom encouraged me to do this like two week teacher training. That was when I was like 19. I was my first teacher training. And that was really for my for my own knowledge. I wasn't really sharing it yet. But it was something that I knew enough where I could practice in my living room at home. And then fast forward a few years. My senior year of college actually got diagnosed with Crohn's disease. And Joe: Allow. Alex: I was a pretty tough, pretty tough time in my life. There was a lot of challenges. And yoga then became like instead of it just being an exercise, it really became my medicine. And to this day, it's still my best, my best medicine. So that was like that was the moment in my life where yoga was no longer just like a hobby or something. I did sometimes just like it's what I needed. And it became a daily way of living again, not just what I did on my map, but like a way that I live and honor all my relationships. And then after college, I graduated and I worked a sales job in New York City and really hustled and then did the grind for about a year. And it just was not a good mix for my health. And I realized, like, I was making a lot of money, but I wasn't fulfilled at all. And I I left that job. And then for the next, like three months, I traveled around to different yoga retreats and I did my first real two hundred hour teacher training. That was seven years ago now. And. And then once I got back from that, I was like, yeah, this is my. This is my path. It's my purpose. And I just kept going from that. Joe: That's really cool. And where did you take this training? Alex: Yes, it was it was so special. I did a. It was like a three week immersion and it was twenty five days in Isla Mujeres, Mexico. So it's a little island off the coast of Cancun. And it was like a super cool kind of rustic resort hotel retreat center. Like no TV's in the room. Very, very basic. But it was it was just like super blissful. And, you know, I feel really blessed and privileged. I was able to take that kind of trip to do my teacher training. I definitely, you know, empty my savings account and those, like, months of, like, wobbling around. But it was super special. And that training, it was way different than what I teach now. But it really taught me how to be a yogi. So it taught me not just how to teach yoga, but what it really means to to live a yoga lifestyle, what it really means to be good at yoga. And it was it was really powerful. Joe: Yeah, that's cool, and people talk about going to certain places to become a yogi, right? I mean, I guess I think like even myself, you think that people that do meditation and yoga and it stems out of like being in India or something like that. Right. Is that true or is that just another fallacy that Alex: Yeah, Joe: You know. Alex: I mean, yoga's origin, like, you know, the first the first time yoga was kind of found in any text or whatever it did, it did seem to originate from India, at least the yoga exercises. Right. The poses if you look at pretty much every spiritual tradition as far as like the philosophy goes. All of them are ways to practice yoga. So that's why some people can be really religious and they can practice yoga and they can become a better or more devout Christian or Jew or Muslim. So it's it's not like yoga is not a religion, but it is a spiritual practice. And a lot of those teachings are are universal, which I think is another reason that yoga is growing so much because they realize, like, wow, this kind of goes with what what I believe in. But as far as like historically. Yeah. And India's India's the the the birthplace of it. Joe: Kind of like the Mecca. Right. Alex: Yeah, yeah, it takes Joe: Ok. Alex: A lot of people go to India for four different paintings and stuff. There's I haven't been to India before. I think a lot of yogis kind of consider it like a rite of passage. You know, once you spent time in India, maybe you get a little more street cred and some. Joe: So that's the I so I was wondering, I guess my next question was going to be, had you gone to India yet? But it sounds like not yet, but I assume at some point maybe that's a goal. Alex: At some point, I mean, it's not like the top of my bucket list. There's a lot I love from Alan Watts and I think it's really applicable to that. He says the only Zen that you'll find at the mountaintop is the Zen that you bring with you. Joe: Yup. Alex: So like, you know, India sure, you can be immersed in a culture. And I think it's cool to learn about the history, but it doesn't necessarily make you a better yogi to spend time in India. You can you can find all those teachings. They're already they're already inside you, right? Joe: Sir. Alex: That's the idea. Like, whatever, you know, whatever yoga you find in India is probably yoga that you already have. Know, it just helps you kind of uncover it. So for some people, it becomes a life changing experience. And I've heard from other yogis that, you know, it didn't it didn't do so much for them. Joe: So let's bounce back to something that you said was was when you were in high school, you rebelled a little bit against it. Right. And it was based on the stigmatism that we all think about. There's these yoga people walking around, burning incense and walk around and samples and, you know, draped clothing or whatever. I don't know. Right. Alex: Maria. Joe: But I. But the purpose of this podcast for me is to inform people and to bring subjects like this, especially when I believe in it. Like, I wouldn't do this if if it was something I didn't believe in. I know how it's helped me. And I look forward to being there in your class. So I don't think enough people do yoga. And I think it's such an amazing thing to do if you can't do anything else. Like, if I have a day where I know I'm slammed and I can't go and pump a bunch of iron or whatever, and there's days where I'll do it before yoga and yoga is like the release of all of it right from me. But I would like you for me, it's like God if there's one thing you can do. Just do yoga. Alex: Yeah, yeah, I mean, I think it's I think especially like the styles that that I've learned, you know, and I do feel really grateful that I've been taught the practices that I've been taught. It's really all encompassing. Like, there's some people that I know that practice just yoga and they are ripped. Strong human beings, if that's what you're going for. But then in addition to that, like in addition to the physical, you get the mental benefits of the focus and the memory and the kind of meditation aspect of it. And then I think also just moving your body and doing breath where there's an incredible emotional release. And to me, most importantly, it's it's a spiritual practice that you connect with your essence and who you really are. So, yeah, I think I think yoga is it's it's amazing to do. And I and I agree with you more people. It's growing for share. It's great. Becoming more and more mainstream. But there's still a lot of people, especially especially men, that would benefit, that would benefit from it. How long Joe: Yeah, Alex: Have you. How long have you been practicing? Joe: To be honest with you, when we got to Lifetime and started with you. That's the only time I had done it up to that point. And I think I might even said this to you is that we had the P90X disc right. From Tony Horton and that, that yoga program on that desk was pretty good. It put us through a lot of cool things, but I don't think I ever took a class until yours. Alex: Nice is awesome. Love it. You got them there. You guys been there almost every day, it seems Joe: Yeah, Alex: Like. Joe: Now I'm hooked. And so here's the thing that I want to convey about you, just to take kind of like my own little infomercial about you and the reason why it's it's such a great class and Joelle and loves it and Ashley loves it. And there's you have this combination about you that is like the perfect yoga instructor or I don't know what. Is that what you call it? Yoga instructor. What's the proper. Alex: I guess the guy's a teacher. Some people Joe: Ok. Alex: Say doctors I feel like instructors, correct? Teacher. Teachers connect. Joe: Perfect. OK. So to me, you encompass the perfect yoga teacher. Now I'm lucky that I found you as my first. And I didn't, you know, whatever. I didn't get tarnished by anything else. But you're, you're the tone of your voice. That's the first thing we all talked about when we got back, was like your. Your voice is like very soothing for the practice. And then you do ramp up really nicely through the class. And then it comes back down really nicely. The storytelling that happens intermittently throughout the class. So I encourage anyone to just go there and take one of your classes. I know that. I think. But you can only go. You can only do it if you're a member. All right. Alex: Yeah, I think that right now, with with everything that's going on, I don't think really guest, guest passes. Joe: That's right. Alex: But luckily for everybody and all your listeners, too, there's a lifetime app and you don't have to be a member to download the app. And there's recorded classes on there. And I was just in Minnesota, I just recorded like five classes. So probably in the next week or two. Everyone, if you have a if you have a phone, if you have an app and on YouTube, I believe you, you'll be able to take my classes online. It's not the same experience. I'll tell you about it really even. I made a post on my social media about it yesterday. It's different teaching to just a camera. Like I realized that I really feed off people's energy Joe: Yep. Alex: When I'm in class. And I think and this is a shift that's happened to me more lately when I teach now. I used to be like a big planner. I got a plan what I was going to say and what stories I would tell. And now I just go in there with maybe a loose idea of what I teach, but I just kind of let it flow like and I feel like the students that are in the class, in a way, bring bring what they need to hear out of me. So it feels really good when that happens. And it was just different, you know. There was no students to bring it out of me. So much so. So those online classes are a different experience, but yet still still good in a way. You can check me out. Joe: Yeah, that's perfect. So I'll make sure that in the show notes, I put the link to all of that so that everyone can get a taste. And then unfortunately, the reason I didn't want to do this episode with you is I don't want the class to get full. And then Alex: Oh, Joe: I can't get in it. So Alex: Yeah. Joe: I was this balance between I want to have Alex on and I don't want people to take my spot in the class. Alex: Make sure you get a spot to. Joe: So let me see what I had. Oh, so I want you to tell. I want you to tell a couple of stories that you've told. So I, I and I remember, too. So I want you to tell the water bucket story. If you don't mind. Alex: Ok, to that Joe: I think Alex: One. Joe: It's super cool. Alex: Yeah, so I love stories, first of all, I actually just wrote an e-book for teachers, leaders, speakers. It's called it's called "Inspire the Fuck Out of People." And. Joe: Awesome. Alex: And it's a book about it's really just a book about storytelling mostly and like themes. It's what I do a lot in my teaching. All of my students realize that, like, when you come to my class, it's going to be more than a physical. There's always gonna be there's not always a story, but there's something deeper. So I just I just wrote my book. I compiled, like, all my stories and everything together. So. So that's pretty cool. And I do love stories. And one of the things about storytelling that's really cool is, is we're wired for storytelling. That's how we like as it as through history. That's how we've communicated. And so our brains are actually wired and there's all kinds of research and studies that have been done. And one thing that's really cool is when you tell a story, your you and your audiences brains get sinks. So I kind of think about like Inception. Have you seen the movie Inception? Joe: I probably have and I don't read. I'm the worst at remembering that Alex: It's Joe: You'd Alex: A stupid. Joe: Be surprised how many times I purchased a movie on Netflix and 10 minutes into it and like, damn, that's $4.99 I just wasted because I already saw. Alex: So anyway, so it's just like the idea when you when you tell stories, you can you can like better plant seeds in your audiences mind. So it's a really powerful way to convey messages and meetings and deeper teachings. So that's where I look. What's one of the things I love about storytelling? So that that storytelling of the the water bearer. So it's a story that there's a water bear. And I think the story of the woman is in India. And every day she has to go and walk like two miles to get water for her family. And she carries this big pole on her back with two buckets on each side. And every day she fills up the buckets and or the pots. And when she gets back to her house or her family or whatever, one of the parts is always like a little bit down, like half empty because there's a crack in it and a cracked pot feels inadequate. Right. It feels like it's not enough. Very similar to how a lot of humans feel and different things, especially when we live in such a world of comparison and competition and starts to feel like upset. And tell us the woman, you know, I feel so bad. You work so hard, you know, to take this long walk. And I don't I don't carry my full weight. Right. I always, always let some water go. Norman says the tomorrow when we take the walk, just notice the beautiful flowers that are along the path. Alex: And so they take a walk in the pot sees all these beautiful flowers shining in the sun. And it's like, you know, temporary happiness school. Beautiful. They get home still, that pot is half empty and still is is upset. It's like, yeah, I noticed the flowers. But that doesn't I'm not full, you know. And the woman says to the pot, hey, I knew you had a crack. So every day I noticed that you were like dripping water out. So what I do is I planted seeds all along the path. And did you notice how there was only flowers on one side? So every day we take that walk. When you leave the water out, you're not leaking the water. You're watering these beautiful flowers. That makes my walk more beautiful. It makes my family happy when I can bring the bring the wildflowers home. And, yeah, it's just it's a really big reminder that we all have cracks. We all have things that we look at as flaws. And recently, I don't know. I heard this from from one of my teachers. But our our mess. Right. They got flaws can become our message and they can become our purpose. And a lot of times those things that we view maybe as as ugly or we hide from others can end up being the most inspiring thing that we have to offer the world. Joe: Yeah, yeah, it's it's so true. Man, this is part of why I started to share just some of the things that have gone on through my life. Just because I think you have to tell these things to let people know that they're not alone in in these struggles or these these turns in the roads or whatever might happen. It's like you were talking in class about I think you reference about, you know, getting knocked to our knees and getting back up. And it's when we're in certain poses and that you can feel the distress and that sensation. And, you know, my arms is doing the side planks today. And my arm was wobbling like crazy. And I like man and it's true in it. And it's it's the way you teach it and it's the metaphors that you bring up and and you never correct anyone in the class. You know, everyone smile. There's a slight hint like, no, raise your arms up, not for whatever. But it's it's it's you know, it's done in a very compassionate, gentle way. And that's what keeps me coming back. It's like I don't want to go to a class and not know the poses and be judged, you know. And I was lucky, like literally Tony Horton's disc taught me enough to at least initially walk into that class without feeling completely ridiculous, but. Alex: Confidence. Joe: Right. But the cool thing is that you have these classes online that people can learn. Some of these initial poses are what you call them. Alex: Yeah. Yeah. Joe: Ok, I got I don't want to say the wrong thing and go, oh, my God, it is. And then take your first class. If you do some of the basic things, you'll feel really comfortable. Right. Alex: Yeah, and I've I have begin people that have never taken yoga classes that come in and take take those flow classes that are hot and and challenging for sure. But, you know, one of the big things and one of the things that like let me rewind a little bit when I was first starting to get back into yoga that I didn't like is I would take classes that were very like alignment based where it was all like posture focused. And hopefully you get and when you take my class, it's not really about the pose. I like Joe: Correct, Absolutely. Alex: Most. OK. It's it's there and it's good to move your body, but it's it's not so important. So I use to take these classes in like the whole class would just be pretty much like you're doing it wrong. This has to be turned this way and this has to be done in this way. And I felt like it didn't make me feel empowered. It made me feel like I was just like not good and weak and that like that I really had to honor what the teacher was saying. And then I decided that I tried to teach. I want you to come in and realize, hey, if all you do is breathe for 60 minutes and that happens sometimes, it hasn't happened so much and more because it's a new community. Sometimes you just gotta come on to your mat and breathe and it doesn't matter anything else that you do. Like if that's what you mean. Beautiful. And the poses truly are secondary and they truly are just an opportunity to to have some awareness in your body. It's not about like perfecting the pose. And I really want people to know that not just for me, but for many yoga teacher, yoga teacher stressing or like or like marketing themselves on. I'm going to help you do this posture where you can get really good at poses if you if you practice my yoga. There's a there's a A out there. You know, I think that some people really like that. And I get it. For me, though, there's there's so much more. And like I say, in say in my classes, we don't practice. You're going to get good at yoga poses. We practice. You're going to get good at life. Joe: Yeah, man, it's it's so true. Like I said, I can't thank you enough for, you know, this the way you handled the classes and it's we're like we're signed up for as many as as many as we can take. I don't want to, like, dehydrate myself. Taking a high flow class every day. But, yeah, we keep signing up. We love it. So before you when you you took the training and to become a yoga and where. How did you teach and how did you get into. What did you do before you landed at lifetime. Alex: Yeah, that's a great question. So first of all, like when you do a teacher training, the kind of the introductory level is 200 hours. That's like that's the training and really 200 hours because yoga is so complex and deep and there's so much to it. Two hundred hours is like kindergarten, right. You get that that kindergarten degree and you definitely have a knowledge foundation. But then you have to become you have to continue to learn. You have to always be a student. And so for me, I finished my 200 hour. This was this was after I lived in York City. I moved back with my parents and I came home from that training and I convinced my parents to get rid of our couches in the living room and turn it into a little yoga studio. But a yoga studio at my house and I didn't I guess I didn't really feel that confident yet to apply. There was really only one yoga studio in my town and I didn't really feel that confident yet. But what I started to do is just have three classes at my house and I put it on Facebook and I invite people to come in sometimes and have three or sometimes five. A lot of times like one and a lot of times just no one would come because again, I was like new to my, you know, seven years ago even there wasn't a whole lot of people that were practicing yoga wasn't very popular where I was living in South Jersey. But I did that for like three months. And I probably had like three classes a week at my house and started sharing where I could. And then and then I felt ready to audition at a local studio and taught there. And then fast forward, like, you know, for my first year of teaching, I was teaching and probably like five or six different studios in South Jersey. They're all super spread out. Those times are I'll drive an hour to go teach a class Joe: Oh, Alex: And like, Joe: Gosh. Alex: You know, and when you're a brand new yoga teacher, you don't get paid a whole lot. So sometimes I would like, you know, drive an hour to teach a class for fifteen bucks. But if that wasn't what it was about, it's never been Joe: Right. Alex: About that Joe: Right. Alex: Night. I do feel like I've, I've been blessed and I am happy that I have an entrepreneurial mind where it's yoga. I live a good life. I'm very happy with with the lifestyle and able to live through it. But I was teaching for a while. And then what I really wanted to do was share yoga, like I wanted to share with as many people. That's been my my mission for a long time. I heard this somewhere that inspired me where they said something about like instead of focusing on being a millionaire, how about you influence a million people? So then I. So my goal for, like, I don't know, forever, when I heard that, I was like, OK, I want to be a billionaire. I want to have an impact on a billion people. That's a lot of people. And I know that the way to do that is to influence people that are influencers. So. So my my next kind of step in the process was I knew I wanted to lead teacher training. You know, I wanted to teach other people to teach yoga there. There I would have like an exponential growth on who I'm impacting. And I met someone actually out here in Arizona, which is funny, was way before I lived here. This was this is about five years ago, a little over five years ago. And they told me that they recommended a a three hundred hour teacher training. So that's like, you know, 200 hours, the kindergarten, 300 hours, like Joe: Hey. Alex: Maybe you got a high school little a little higher level. You go a little deeper in. And they told me to do this teacher training in Michigan with with my teacher, Johnny Quest. And I went there and it's funny, like the way I in life, I let things flow so. Right. That like that it felt very like just. It just made sense to me. So I didn't even do much research and I just went to this 300 hour training in Michigan. It was another immersion. It was like three weeks, three weeks straight. Joe: Wow. Alex: And when I was there, I realized that that training was the style that they teach at lifetime. And and that was. And then I was told when I was there about one of the other teachers that their friend was going to Grand Open. They were going to be the general manager of this club in South Jersey that happened to be like 40 minutes from my house. So when I get home from the training, I went to talk to the one of the managers there about just teaching that I was thinking, like, I you know, it's an hour away, 40 minutes away. Maybe I'll teach, like back to back classes. Let me see if it's worth it. And then, like, I show up one day and kind of just tell my story. And the woman who's a dear friend of mine now, she's like, well, we have a yoga manager. And you're hired like you're the you're our guy, you know, because I was the only person in that area that knew the style that Joe: Yes. Alex: We taught. So, yeah. So, again, fast forward a little bit. Got hired at that. That was my first lifetime. I was the yoga manager and we had like just a thriving community. Just incredible. You know, there would be we'd have classes where there would be 80 to 100 people in a Wednesday night. Joe: Oh, my Alex: Yeah. Joe: Gosh. Alex: Well, like, almost the whole floor was mats. You know, there'd be that maybe I would I would say it would it wasn't really a joke because it was true. I'd be like, if you don't know the person next to you, then you can have like two inches between your mats. If you do, another person next to your mats could be touching. So very different world than now. I don't think super to me people would be into that. But it was amazing. The energy was incredible. People made like lifelong friendships. And I was there for a while, kind of felt like I was without a teacher. So then, you know, and the universe provided me the next step where my teacher, Johnny, called me and said, hey, come to Michigan, learn from me, learn with me. There's no there's like we need a yoga manager at this lifetime, Michigan, when they're taught for a few years. Also, you know, is it amazing to be a part of that community because they had all really learned from my teacher. So it's just a really strong community. They just really got what we did. So a super cool. And then I got tired of the Michigan winter. So Joe: Yes. Alex: The last Joe: I don't Alex: Year Joe: Blame you. Alex: Last year, I was like I called my my boss who do directs Lifetime. I said, Terry, I need to know, like, what lifetimes are opening in the next year. And this built more. One was one of them. And, you know, I'd I'd come here on retreats. I'd led retreats in in Scottsdale, Phoenix, for three years, my first three years of teaching at lifetime. Not sure why Phoenix. Like, that's just just a synchronicity. I just happened Joe: Yeah. Alex: To have picked Scottsdale to come to you and I was again familiar with it. And now I'm here and I love it. Joe: That's awesome, man. That's a great story. Alex: Yeah, and I think that one of the things that's important about it, too, is like if you look from a from an external point of view, it might just look like, oh, like everything just fell into your lap. You're very lucky. And I don't believe it's luck. I believe that, first of all, it's blessed. I do feel very blessed in my life. My life, not my whole life hasn't been a blessing, but in a lot of ways and very blessed. And I recognize that. But also, I believe that when you are doing your work and yoga, get called Dharma, when you're doing like your soul's purpose. Doors are going to open up for you that you didn't even know existed. And and then, like the old paradigm is that you have to have, like, super hard work to live the life of your dreams. And the new paradigm is if you're on your path, your path. Right. That's important. Not what other people think Joe: So Alex: You should do Joe: Important. Alex: When you're on your path. It doesn't it doesn't feel like hard work. You know, I've had a lot of success teaching yoga. And I've been a student and I've put effort in and I've taken inspired action, but it's never felt like hard work. And I think it's. And I know it's because I'm doing what I'm supposed to be doing. I'm doing my my life's work. Joe: Yeah, it's so awesome. And this is great because my audience, the listeners, this is what I preach when I don't have a guest like you on, you know, it's all about that. Even though I'm older, it's taking me all this time to finally say I just need to do the things that that speak to me, that make me happy, that make me want to wake up every day Alex: Neverson. Joe: And smile. Yeah. And so I've come to the game late, but I'm working on it, you know, and hopefully I have a few more years before I take a dirt nap and I can get a bunch of really cool stuff done. So we'll see. Alex: And really, too, like your neck, it's never too late to to to to move in the direction of your dreams and really realize, too, like it's it's not a destination. It doesn't matter how early you start. You don't eventually get to this place where you like up there. I don't care Joe: Right. Alex: Anymore because it's there's always there is always a path, a continuous journey. So it doesn't matter when you get on the path. But it's it's a beautiful thing that you've found it, you know, because for a lot of people, they don't find it till maybe they're laying in their death bed. Right. Joe: I know. Alex: A Joe: Yeah, Alex: Lot of Joe: And I. Alex: It takes lifetimes to find it. Joe: Right. And I've actually I've I've talked about this in some of the. I've done a couple where it's just me kind of spilling my heart saying you don't want to have regret, you don't want to lay me there. And, you know, you want to have it be where you feel like you really live an amazing life. And so you more people have control over this than they think. And the problem is they they don't think they have control over it. They're they're just they're letting their life become something that is being steered by other people, other things, whatever. And. And I think that's why this time with the corona virus happening, this wasn't just a localized thing. Right? It was the whole world shut down and it gave everyone the opportunity to sit back and reflect on what it is that they do and what's the next step for them. And if they got laid off or fired or whatever, you know, they might not have a job. So what do you want to do with your life? Right. So to me, this is it's a cool conversation because it's it's not just about yoga. Your frame of mind is in the same thing that I'm trying to convey to the people that listen to this podcast is that let's, you know, pick what you want to do and make yourself happy. You have control to engineer your own life to to live the fullest life that you can. So figure it out and start. Now, we're never gonna get a plan. I did a podcast on this. We're never gonna get a break like this again. Our lease? I don't think so. Not in our lifetime, where literally everything just halts. Alex: Right. And also a lot of people get it individually, right? Sometimes it comes as like a diagnosis or a we're getting fired or laid off, you know. But this is a collective where we have an opportunity as a collective to reflect on, like, how do we want to be not just on our individual life, but how do we want to live as a community, as a whole, as a collective? And I think also that's why a lot of things are coming to the surface. You know, a lot of the tension and seeing like injustices and starting to the fact that there's more awareness there. It's a beautiful thing. Weather doesn't matter. You know, there's there's a lot of different opinions on how it's been addressed. But we're going to see. And I really do believe this is like a new paradigm. Things are no longer hidden. And and we're seeing that and more and more and more and more ways, like even restaurants go to go to new restaurants. They almost always have like an open kitchen. Right. Like you Joe: Yeah. Alex: Go to because you can see the food being prepared. And that's how our whole life is starting to be, where it's there's there's nothing hidden anymore. And we don't want the hidden. So, like, whatever's been in the darkness where we're shining light on it. And it's it's arising. And like what you said. Yeah. It's so important to do what you love doing, to do what makes you feel good, because there's a lot of people that are even super and putting this in quotes against successful. Right. And usually that's like a monetary thing. That's kind of how our American dream Joe: Yeah. Alex: Then equated that are like super rich and just like so unhappy and numbing themselves. They're addicted to all kinds. All kinds of shit. Whatever it is that that, you know, everyone has different ways to numb themselves. But, you know, it's not just about money. It's not just about like working hard. It's about loving your life and living the truest version of your life. That's that's what's going to bring you the most fulfillment. Joe: Absolutely. You know what? And here's a good segue way, because you talk about community and how we're all thinking about the future together. Now it's really like a shot in the head for everyone saying what is going on and we've got to fix this. And and it's not just singular now. It's it's your your family. It's your community. It's everything. And when you were in yoga and you talk like that, can feel it in the room that everyone is is realizing that we have to make the right changes to move forward. And. And it just it's it's powerful. So this is a Segway to that really cool story you talked about with the kids lined up and the Alex: Oh yeah. Joe: Basket. Alex: The trive...yeah. So there's a there's. A phrase in African culture from certain tribes in Africa. And it's I don't know exactly how to pronounce it, I think it's Ubuntu, Ubuntu. And the idea that phrase means I am who I am because of who we all are together. So like we're a product of our environment. And an anthropologist went to this tribe in Africa that kind of lives by this ritual. And they didn't experiment where they lined up all their all the children. And in the distance, like 100 hundred yards away under a tree, they put a basket of fruit and candy and all kinds of sweet treats. And this this anthropologist explained the rules of the game. He said, when I say go, it's a race. And the first person there, they get the basket of treats. They get the basket of goods. So obviously, like some of the older kids have a big advantage, they're probably going to be a little faster. So you lines them all out and he says, "Ready? Go." And the kids, they didn't have any time to talk to each other beforehand. And as soon as he says go, they look at each other that turns had side reach out and grab each other's hand. And together they like kind of jog or skip to the basket and they get there at the same time and they shared all. Anthropologists ask one of the older girls in the tribe that that probably was was one of the fastest, fastest ones. And you said why you could add it all to yourself. Why do you do that? And she said, you want to. How can one of us be happy if the rest of us are sad? Joe: It was so powerful when you told that story as a wow. Alex: Yeah, I mean, when you get that story mixed with, like, intense, you know, physicality, transformation, that's another thing that's beautiful about yoga. What I love about this platform is when your physiology changes. So if you're doing some kind of activity, you're also more open and receptive on on all those dimensions. So then when you hear something like that, it really lands. It really impacts you Joe: Yeah. Alex: More than even just listening to this or listening to a podcast or something. It's a different level when you're getting your physical involved. Joe: Yes. Absolutely. Alex: Huge one too like that idea, because a lot of us and this is another, like old paradigm we're taught. How many times we hear it like the idea of survival of the fittest and it's a shark eat shark or Joe: Yeah, Alex: Dog eat dog world or starve. Joe: Yeah. Alex: You've got to be a shark. And you've got to know in order to be successful that you need to kind of push other people. There's there's people that you need to kind of push down for you to to rise up. And that's that's bullshit. Like that's gone. That maybe that's how it used to be. But that's not how this new world, this new paradigm that we're moving into is like now it can be rather than competition, it's collaboration or conscious competition where we can kind of grow together. There's Joe: Yeah. Alex: A quote that my teacher used, always used that all ships rise in a high tide. So collectively we're raising each other up or lifting each other up and there's enough abundance for everybody. And that's huge to understand and to really get to and believe because we believe it on an individual level, the collective starts to believe it and then we'll start to really see it in our lives that like there's enough work for all of us. Joe: Yeah, yeah, and that's why the classes are so strong in the sense of it's the it's the work out that you get and it's that all of the things that that you get out of the class, but it's you get this benefit of all of this positive energy that comes out of it. And it's just it's amazing. That's what I want to touch upon. All I want to know for people that don't understand yoga. And obviously it's new to me. But I. I just know the benefit. I can feel it. I can already twist certain ways that I couldn't twist a month ago. Whatever it is. But I want to educate the listeners who have been on the fence about taking a yoga class. What are the benefits that you can express of what yoga does and why it's so needed? Alex: There's there's a there's a lot of benefits, and it really happened in in a lot of different ways. So I'll talk about the four dimensions. I talked about that a lot in my trainings and stuff four dimensions, physical, mental, emotional, spiritual. And yoga has it's going to improve your life and in all of those physically. Is gonna help you feel good, right? Like moving your body and breathing deep. It's medicine for your body. And and and like, if we're honest with ourselves, we want to feel good. And there's enough shit that we do that kind of brings us into a state of not feeling great that this will help balance it out. Right. So if you'd like to party a little bit and drink or maybe, you know, indulge in some unhealthy food, that's fine. But this will help you. This will help you be balanced and and moving your body has it has a ton of benefits and moving. You're like just body weight is really good, too. So I know that a lot of people like my age. And when you're younger or really I should say, like men, men in general, we we think and we've kind of been programmed to think that in order to be. I don't know, appealing and sexy. And we need to lift a lot of weights. Right. And it's good to be strong for sure. But there's just so much wear and tear that comes from lifting heavy weights. Alex: And in most cases, like, we don't need that kind of strength. Right. Like like in our day to day life, we're not doing things well. So then it becomes not even that functional. But yoga, moving your own body, that's it. We're constantly doing and through those body weight movements. Not only is it going to build strength, but it's not going to, like, wear you down as much as I'm doing other other types of exercise. So that's a one big one physically is just feeling good in your body, going even deeper. Like I can tell you. So I have two autoimmune conditions. I've been diagnosed with Crohn's disease, which is intestinal inflammation. Kind of throws off my digestion and diabetes, so affects my blood sugar. When I practice yoga or really now I see it more now and I don't practice yoga because I do it frequently. If I don't practice yoga, my blood sugar is way higher. So it regulates my blood sugar. And there are studies that show it helps really everybody's blood sugar, which is good. But you have diabetes or not. It's good to have regulated blood sugar, helps your body just stay in and kind of balance. And and my digestion is better, too. And there's a lot of people that that have digestive problems. So just moving your body around and a lot of the forward folds and twists, it's like a massage for your digestive organs. So those are just like little benefits. Alex: And I'd say that each person you kind of have to experience it for yourself to really get to know. Right. Like I could tell you that honey is sweet and delicious, and I could talk about it all the time. How good honey is. If you never taste honey, you're not going to really understand. But when you really do it yourself, then you'll start to realize, like, well, yeah, I do feel better. So that's physical. Mental. It's gonna help you. I think the biggest one is it's going to help you be less reactive in your lives. So reactions are like, you know, someone cuts you off in traffic and you die. You start getting crazy and like fight or flight response, start getting angry. Or maybe it's with your partner that you live with where they say something that kind of pisses you off and you you just get super agitated right away. And there's no like, there's no. There is no cause from like the stimulus to the response. It's just right away that you're super reactive. And it's really powerful to be able to increase that space. So something happens, there's some kind of stimulus, and you're able to take a little bit more time to respond with with your whole being, not just like out of emotion or not just like out of anger or you're able to more intellectually, intelligently and emotionally respond. So I think that helps a lot. Joe: That's really interesting, too. I never thought of it that way. But to have that space between between what happens in your reaction is really cool. Alex: It's huge when you can when you've made that space even bigger, when that gap becomes bigger. That's really you talk about regret a little bit. Usually we only regret things when we react to them. When you have that space and you usually have a little more time before you respond to something, then you're probably not going to regret you're probably going to make a decision that's that's going to be best for it, for all parties involved. Definitely increases your ability to focus. Right. So if you want to be more proficient, efficient at work, if you want to be able to have better conversations, be a better communicator. Is going to help you with that, too. So mentally really powerful. And it just goes to improve your mood like movement and breath helps you feel better. So you're gonna be in a better state of mind when you're not when you're in a better state of mind, in a more elevated state. You're going to attract better things into your life. That's the best law of attraction and law of attraction. Is not this like hippy dippy, crazy thing that is real. And we're all doing it constantly. Right. We just aren't necessarily aware emotionally. Yoga is a great way to express it. So it's another thing with men like men were taught that to to be a strong man, we need to be stoic and we need to not really show emotion. Alex: And that takes it takes a big toll. Right. And that's why more men have like serious health conditions, because this is a popular saying mom like wellness practitioners, our issues are stored in our tissues. Right. So if we never release emotionally, then then then we have so much stress that we're just holding in and holding onto. I think also that's a big part of why I had a disease, why I got diagnosed, because I didn't have a healthy outlet to express the things I was feeling and some of the challenges that I went through. So. So yoga like moving your body, breathing. Kind of shaking things I talk about. Like shaking. That's a way that our bodies release. So that's a really powerful thing on an on an emotional level. And it just allows us to feel right. Like, most of the time we're numbing ourselves. Yoga is like the opposite. Like, go ahead and feel. You can feel angry. It's OK. You can feel happy. You can. You can. You know, there's a lot of people that practice yoga. And they they feel emotional, like they might cry or like feel like they're tearing up beautiful and you off to try to make sense of it, just like that's a release that had to happen. Joe: Yeah. Alex: And then finally, the good news is that. Joe: Not I don't know if it's it's exc. I was just going to say that you talk about the emotion part of it and how I even said to you after one of the classes, I couldn't keep tree pose, I couldn't keep it without falling out of the pose and losing my balance. And I found myself getting mad at myself a couple of times. And over the months I've learned to to just breathe and settle into it. And then it's it's become a better way of doing it for me. But I used to get mad at myself because I want I'm one of those people I got to do everything good or I suck, you know, and it's. Alex: You know, that man and I and having the awareness of it. That's a huge benefit of the practice. I say it a lot in my classes. How you do anything is how you do everything. Joe: Yeah. Alex: And, you know, this is an opportunity to become more aware of, like what happens when you struggle. Right. Do you get pissed at yourself? Do you start to have this negative self talk? Because all that does is bring you to a downward spiral. Right. So as you become more aware of it, you go into your yoga mat and you might do something that like, OK, you're going to struggle in it, but can you still stay, like, optimistic? Can you still keep your energy up even when you're struggling? And that's going to help you so much in other areas of your life and your relationships in your in your work, in your, you know, whatever it may be. So that's really powerful. And in the final dimension where you get benefits is the spiritual and spiritual true. That's a pretty, like, misunderstood term. Couple of things that that it means to me. One of the one of the most powerful emotions or traits, I guess, to feel is inspired and inspired is that word in spirit. So it's like when you're connected to soul, right? When you're connected to your true self. Because you don't have a soul. You are so right. Every single human being is Joe: Mm hmm. Alex: A school. We have a body. We have a mind. But we are we are soul. And when we're in that place of spirit and soul, we get out of our own way. And we start to realize that we are our biggest obstacles, like our ego. Right. That that part of us that maybe gets pissed when we're not doing so good or maybe gets offended or overthinks things like we get in our own. Our ego gets in our own way all the time because we just want to be loved and we want to be appreciated. We want to be like, you know, our ego wants to be the best and recognized as the best. And when we're in spirit, we don't care about that. Like when you're really inspired, all that shit goes away. And I think everyone's experienced it in some way where they're just in the flow of life. So, like, I'm a big athlete, I love playing sports and I've had moments in life. I'm just totally in the zone. Right. I know musicians and runners. They experience it, too. And in the zone is the same thing. You could change interchange that word with being in a state of meditation or being in it in a state of inspiration. In spirit. Joe: Yeah. And it was interesting because, again, talking about the practice of yoga. And I wanted to actually ask you, what do they call it, the practice of yoga. Alex: Yeah, I love that because it's not a performance and it's not a competition, right. And it helps you realize that it's not a destination. So if you if you're not performing yoga, there's no one that you're trying to impress with yoga. Social media. Maybe there's some other things about it, because you'll see a lot of these famous yoga accounts that just pose like pretty photos. But to me, that's not really what yoga is about. And yoga for four more more of the time that it's been around, as has not been about postures, it never really was about posture. It's just in the past few hundred years, poses became became what yoga is like known for. It's never a performance and it's never a destination. And, you know, one thing about practice is like you don't really need to label or judge it as good or bad just by putting the effort in. You get the results out. And I think that's a pretty powerful thing because most of the things we do in life, we're doing to, like, impress other people or to to perform something and almost everything that we do, we do to kind of impress other people or or get some kind of recognition and yoga. It's not about that. Just you come to your mat. We just practice certain things. And what you're really practicing in yoga, not getting good postures. You're really practicing strengthening the qualities of the mind that serve you right. So equanimity, having a balanced mind, non reactivity, kindness, compassion, enthusiasm, inspiration, like those qualities, the mind you're strengthening and then you're learning to weaken by just not giving energy to the qualities of the mind that that detract from you. So like competition and judgment and negative self talk, those things. So really, that's what you're practicing. You're practicing getting better at living your life. Joe: Yeah, awesome. I want to, if you can, and I don't know I don't know how deep you want to get into it, but I want to get a little deeper in the physical part of it, because I think that that's what's important for people to understand. I don't want them to think it's like to showing like I think the other benefits will come out of it if if they understand the health benefits in a physical nature of what it can do to them. And I know that where we're in certain poses and when we're in class and you're talking about how your toes are spread out when you're let's say you're in downward dog or your fingers are spread out. And it's and they talked about us all getting more down into the earth, like sitting on the floor during the day occasionally, like feeling more connected to the earth. Alex: Yeah. Joe: And and I know that when we do these poses and you talk about how you're pushing on your ankles and your fingers and your toes, and it's it's creating this circulation in the areas that normally aren't getting that kind of attention. Alex: For sure. Yes. Love it so. So let's start by saying, like, first of all, in in our Western culture, right. In America, there's something like one in four people have chronic illness. It might even be higher. It might actually be like one and two. But we live in a culture where a lot of people have disease and disease dis Joe: Yes. Alex: Ease. So the opposite of having ease in the body is dis-ease and the cause of most diseases. And this is really according to like all traditional medicine practices that have been around for thousands of years. Right. Way longer than our modern like pharmaceuticals and what we do here in our health care system. But like traditional Chinese medicin, Ayurveda which is the kind of sister science of yoga, traditional medicine that was practiced in the Middle East for thousands of years. It all says that the main cause of disease is stagnation. Right. Like when there's just stuck, when we're stuck, they're stuck. Energy, that's the reason that we get tension, everybody. That's the reason that our digestion kind of sucks. So yoga in the poses and we work in the yoga posture to bring sensation to every single part of our body and wherever there's sensation that that's that goes hand in hand with there being stimulation. Right. So that part of your body is stimulated. And if you just, like, took your arm and you stack smacked your arm a lot. Right. This is stimulation. It's going to start to turn red. That's increased circulation. So wherever you stimulate whatever part of your body you stimulate. There's more blood flow, more energy flow. And when everything is flowing, that's when we're at a at a greater place of of health. Better place of healing. And I love using the analogy of like a stagnant pond. Alex: Right. It's like very murky. It's it's kind of nasty. A lot of mosquitoes and bugs compare. And that's that's when we're stagnant. And if you think about it, probably a lot of people that we know well, maybe people that are listening to this right now. We spend hours a day sitting in a chair. So there's a lot of stagnant energy, a lot of blockages. Tips are so tight, our low backs are so tight. That's the pond. That's real stagnant energy. And then if you look at like a stream, it's very clear. It's smooth. It's flowing. That's the. That's what yoga helps helps us get like, more circulation in our body, more energy flowing in our body. A huge one. A huge benefit of the practice is you don't you'll see that you, like, don't need to be addicted to coffee and caffeine to have energy. Right. Like, you can find weight. Just breathe deep. You'll have more energy. Do some sun salutations, which is like a basic yoga warm up super D. D series of movements. You'll you'll have more energy. And that's a beautiful thing too, because it's really empowering. You start to realize, hey, I can take my healing into my own hands. I can take my energy and my efficiency into my own hands. So that's a big part of how the physical postures work, is bringing more stimulation and therefore circulation to every little party about. Joe: Yeah, I think it's really important, so I wanted to just kind of drill that home because again, I think that the the idea of what yoga is, is you have to experience it. Like you said you can. You can tell me all day that that honey is sweet. And if I don't taste it, I'll never know. Right. So I just I want to encourage the listeners to initially if they just want to watch you online in a training, but ultimately I don't care if it's at lifetime or. I do care. I don't want anybody at lifetime. I don't want that. Alex: Save you a spot. Joe: No but I encourage people to go in and when they're ready to go take a class, because I really think it's super important. Alex: And I'm glad you said that because that it is a little bit of a blind spot for me, because if you talk to people that are close to me, like you'll see like I love yoga for definitely more than just the physical practice, like the physical to me is like really a smaller benefit to all the other practices. Like I said you don't practice yoga to get good at poses. You practice, you're going to get good at life. But I also realize it's really important for people to realize that, like, the physical is usually the introductory. Right. Most people come to yoga because they want to feel better in their body. They want to be more flexible. They want to kind of like, you know, if they have low back pain, they want to they want to help take care of that. So I think it's important for me to realize that and talk to that, too. And really, if you come just for the physical, that's fine. You'll get everything else. That's how it works for most people. They come for the physical. They want to Joe: Yeah. Alex: Be more flexible. They want to, you know, open up their hips a little bit. And then they start to realize, like, wow, this is. Like, I didn't freak out when someone just cut me off. I used to have road rage. Whoa. This is like my yoga practice is helping. I breathe. I did deep. I took a deep breath. Instead of, like, maybe yelling at my partner or yelling at my kids when they kind of pissed me off. Like, I saw that there's a little more space between my response. You don't have to. You want to go to yoga for that. But you'll get the. Joe: Right. So on top of that, this is just more of a personal question. Do you meditate also? Alex: Yes. Joe: Ok. I just that was a selfish question because I've done it off and on. And I was just wondering if it's something that you do as part of your daily lifestyle. Alex: Sure. I mean, I've I've been inconsistent over the years where I'll go and be really consistent with we're going to fall off. But that's like the seated meditation practice. And I feel like there's a lot of misconceptions about what meditation is. I've had I can't tell you how many students I've had say I can't meditate. I can't get my mind to still to be still. I can't get my mind to calm down to any thoughts. And like, that's very natural. But that's that's part of being a human having a human mind. It's not about making your thoughts go away. The practice of meditation and this is ancient yoga philosophy. This is like that the eight limbs of yoga, which is a really foundational yoga philosophy teaching before you get to meditation, that kind of the precursor is is concentration. So when you're doing when you're meditating, what you're really doing is concentrating on one thing. And if your mind wanders, it's OK as part of the practice. But you just sucks instead of letting your mind go away off into the distance. You notice it wandering and you bring it back. You notice it wandering and you bring it back. So the practice is concentration. Meditation is not really a verb. It's more of a noun that you might get into. But just because you sit and sit for five minutes doesn't mean you're gonna get into that state of meditation where you're like in the zone. Alex: And that's not it's practice another you know, another thing like you want to judge it as like, oh, did I actually meditate or not just take if you. And I like to teach when I do like one to one coaching, I just teach. Hey, guys, this is like we're just gonna practice concentration and let me call it meditation. We're gonna practice concentration. And as you get better at concentration, you start to get into the zone. And some people, almost everyone meditate just in different ways. Like runners. You know, I've talked to some people, too, that work with or might you have like a concentration practice, ignite or meditate. And I was like, well, what do you do to kind of like get out of your own head like or like, you know, what do you do to kind of if you have a lot of thoughts going on it, like why I like to run when I'm running, I'm just like fully in the zone and not thinking too much. Perfect. That's your meditation. Some people meditate when they play basketball and they play music when they create art. So there's a lot of different ways to do it. And I think that's important to realize, too, to. Joe: Yeah, and it's funny because what yoga has helped me to do is to understand how poorly I was breathing because I'm definitely a breath holder type person like I. The tension from holding my breath for certain things. And so it's opened up the fact that I need to breathe deeper and longer. And it's all part and it's all these little benefits that you don't realize you're getting. And that's why I think it's so important. I wanted to have you on because of all of this, you know. Alex: Yoga changes your life does Joe: Yeah. Alex: If you commit to it. And it just it just works for everyone. The big thing is you have to find the right teacher, right? The right Joe: Yeah. Alex: To feel like I'm not everybody's teacher. I've had people that don't like the way I teach. They don't. I talk a lot to a lot of stories. Some people like that. Some people like more silence. You know, I play my music really loud. Some people like that. And that's fine. And I and I realized that, like, not everyone's going to like me. I think if people if I wanted everybody to like me, I'm probably doing something wrong. I'm sacrificing Joe: Yeah. Alex: My truth. But there's plenty of teachers. There's plenty of styles of yoga. So once you find your teacher and your style and your person, you dive in and and like, it'll it'll change your life. Joe: And you touched upon something there that I wanted to ask you, this is about the music and how. How do you think that Paris, with what we're all doing in that room and and how do you I would, knowing you
Richard Maxwell has created and runs one of the most unique and inspiring creative musical arts and sciences program in the nation. For me, it reminds me of the entry level sound recording program I went through in college, only Richard's students get into the creative process early because of what he had the guts to create. This program happens in an area of the school campus where they have their own section of rooms that is their facility. It's made up of a larger classroom if you will that doubles as a performance room plus they have 15 Pro Tools stations and Pro Tools running in their A and B recording studios. They learn how to be expressive without fear of judgement, they write songs, they mutually assist and critique each others work in a helpful, loving way and it's magical to see what happens on a daily basis. Richard is a loving, caring person who, by his own efforts and fortitude, has created a platform where he can give the students, his very best in regards to guidance, ideas and processes.If you love music, talking about music, the process of making music, what music looks like in today's world, interested in how music could be handled in schools or always wondered how a single person can make a huge change in our education system, these episodes split into Part 1 and Part 2, are for you! Enjoy, share and spread the musical love. Richard Maxwell's Links: Richard's Website: https://sites.google.com/view/richardmaxwell CMAS Program: https://sites.google.com/view/arcadiacmas YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/user/RichardMaxwellMusic/videos Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/richard.maxwell.3538 Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/rchrdmxwll/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/rchrdmxwll LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/richard-maxwell-235ab513/ https://youtu.be/KPMuQNW9GL4 ********** Podcast Music By: Andy Galore, Album: "Out and About", Song: "Chicken & Scotch" 2014 Andy's Links: http://andygalore.com/ https://www.facebook.com/andygalorebass/ ********** If you enjoy the podcast, would you please consider leaving a short review on Apple Podcasts/iTunes? It takes less than 60 seconds, and it really makes a difference in helping to convince hard-to-get guests. For show notes and past guests, please visit: https://joecostelloglobal.com/#thejoecostelloshow Subscribe, Rate & Review: I would love if you could subscribe to the podcast and leave an honest rating & review. This will encourage other people to listen and allow us to grow as a community. The bigger we get as a community, the bigger the impact we can have on the world.For show notes and past guests, please visit: https://joecostelloglobal.com/#thejoecostelloshow Sign up for Joe's email newsletter at: https://joecostelloglobal.com/#signup For transcripts of episodes, go to https://joecostelloglobal.com/#thejoecostelloshow Follow Joe: Twitter: https://twitter.com/jcostelloglobal Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jcostelloglobal/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/jcostelloglobal/ YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCUZsrJsf8-1dS6ddAa9Sr1Q?view_as=subscriber Transcript Part 1 – Richard Maxwell Interview: Joe: Hey, Richard, great to have you, man. I'm glad you could come on the show. And as you know, I'm a huge fan and when I reached out, I figured, you know, while we're all in this COVID-19 thing, you aren't quite as busy as you usually are. So I'm glad Richard: Different Joe: I was able to Richard: And Joe: Get you in here. Richard: Different, busy? No, I'm I'm I am as I'm I'm as big of a fan of yours as you are always so kind to me as well. So Joe: I Richard: I think Joe: Appreciate Richard: A Joe: It. Richard: Mutual admiration society. But that's Joe: Awesome. Richard: A Joe: Yeah. Richard: That's a good thing. I'm flattered to be here. Joe: So I know just from my own personal experience with you that you are a multi instrumentalist because I know that you and I have a kinship with drums for sure. Richard: Yes, we do. Joe: But that's pretty much where my talent starts and stops. And then you go on to songwriting and playing guitar. And I'm sure you play the keys. Richard: Yeah, but. Joe: So. Richard: Yeah. But to be fair, your skill you have in, like your little finger in drums eclipses my entire rhythmic independence and abilities beyond belief. Joe: Now that you talk about being too kind, that's too kind. Right. Richard: Well, no. I mean, you are a masterful musician in your own right. Absolutely. Joe: Well, Richard: I am Joe: Thank you. Richard: A jack of all trades, master of none in some ways. But I think that I mean, for what it's worth, the multi instrumentalist thing is partially due to the control freak nature of my personality, I think. I've had time to analyze this over the years and some of that I'd like you know, I'd like to be able to sort of be like, yes, I love playing all these instruments and I do. But some of it is because somewhere along the line, it was hard to find people that I felt like I could say, hey, let's do it this way, you know, and some of that was because I was probably not probably I was really difficult to work with. I think myself. So I started just kind of trying to figure out ways to do it on my own. On the other hand, you do learn a lot when you explore other instruments. So there's a lot of instruments that I will pick up and play badly just for the sort of joy of seeing what it does. What's that? But I like that. I think I think I think musically, there's something about process for me. You know, I'm I'm at an age where, you know, there's a lot of "what ifs" in my life and in my career musically. So now, you know, it's interesting because, like, I think you're, you're in, you're at a point in your thirties where you like all of those things are sort of like, oh, man, if only I had. If only I had. And then, weirdly enough, you get to a point where you're like, wait a minute, I actually now this actually means like artistic freedom. Which has been fascinating for me, and I know we also want to talk about, you know, the program at the school and stuff, but it sort of relates to it like, like you start to realize, like sometimes that's actually more valuable. Like there's a ya know, there obviously we all want to be Springsteen or Taylor Swift or whoever is that, you know, that that A-list group. Of course. I mean, who wouldn't want Joe: Yeah. Richard: That lifestyle and and those opportunities and I think that anybody who says they don't, is probably not being entirely honest. On the other hand, you know, I remember, I've been biking through this COVID stuff as much as I can so I, I have one ear with a couple different podcasts that I listen to and when John Prine died, when and if you know who he was or Joe: Yeah, Richard: Not, is Joe: Absolutely. Richard: Really a brilliant songwriter. So there was this one podcast that was talking about him that had said something that just stuck with me. I was never a huge John Prine fan. I mean, I respected the guy, but they were saying how he looked at his career and at one point, the fact that he never had, like, that top 10 smash hit was a detriment. But then the music critic who, who's pretty, pretty brilliant guy, he goes, yeah, but on the other hand, when you talk to people about his entire catalog, everybody's like, yeah, but everything's brilliant and not having that hit, like, he wasn't identified by a particular sound or of particular time and he could always kind of do what he artistically wanted. I've become more fascinated by, by that than, than anything else. And I talk a lot about that with my students, you know, in their process to like, you know, that thing that you love is wonderful. But what's like, what's the step before and maybe what's the step after? And are you and frankly, are you allowed to even take it? You know, we get very critical of artists and what we see on TV and on, you know, any video and YouTube now and everything else, but sometimes I wonder, you know, man, it's that the pressure to sustain that, whatever that thing is for them. I don't know. I know it sounds weird to maybe people would say, oh, he's just copping out for whatever. I don't know if I'd want it at this point in my life. Joe: Yes Richard: You don't. I mean. Joe: That's funny because I've had the same conversation with myself. I totally in my heart and in my soul and to be truthful to myself, that's all I ever wanted. And then it took me until I don't think it was that long ago that I actually was able to look myself in the mirror and go, you just didn't put in the work. You didn't put in that extra thing to allow yourself to rise above to be noticed. It just, it didn't and I know that, you know, I just I just never went that last whatever it was Richard: Sure. Joe: To get Richard: But then, Joe: It done. Richard: On the other hand, you know that what's the cliche about, you know, one. One door opens and another and one closes and another opens. I mean, you just you know, I've come to realize that. That that. Things happen for a reason like, like, you know, along the lines of what you're talking about. So, like, I never took the risk to, like, go out to, I've been to L.A. enough times that I kind of have a love hate relationship with that city in some respect, I think, like everybody does. And places that nature in terms of the industry. But I never when I was in my early 20s, you know, I didn't do the stereotype I wanted to but the thing of it is, is that I know now, looking back, if I'm like you're saying, being truly honest with yourself, I'm truly honest with myself, I know for a fact that if I had gone out and done that, then, it wouldn't, I would have, I would have destroyed myself, probably like I wasn't going to hit it, like it wasn't going to happen then. It Joe: That's Richard: Just Joe: Interesting. Richard: It just wasn't I wasn't ready. Joe: The. Richard: I wasn't you know, I am a very slow process learner. It takes me a long time. I guess I'm not OK with it, you know? I mean, I'm sitting in this, you know, not to sound funny, but on the other hand, I'm this is everyday for me where I am right now. Like, Joe: Right. Richard: This is you know, I was I was in a position we were able to get a house built. And it's not like it's that fancy. And I'm not going to show you. I could show you what I'm looking at out my window. But like, if you saw like, there's just gear and stuff everywhere, it's a mess in the studio. But the fact that I'm able to sit in a studio every day, I have opportunities where I can make music on my own terms. You know, I'm thinking about everybody I grew up with and stuff like that, that's, that's not so bad. You know, I mean, I'm not like like taking a, like, sort of second place on that either, I mean, you know, I have I have friends, I have students who tour, former students who tour all over the world now. And I'm so proud of them. And it but it's brutal, I mean, it's just I mean, not even I'm not even talking about, like, the COVID stuff. I mean, just that lifestyle in general and trying to maintain that, I mean, it, it I did I did some of that, you know, like one hundred years ago. But, you know, it's I guess, I guess maybe I feel lucky we live in a time where I can feel fulfilled in some ways. Joe: Yeah, yeah, and it's so funny because I just the last guests that I had on it, we actually talked for two and a half hours and I won't do that to you. And it was I'm going to actually blame it on him because he's such a great storyteller. But I had Nate Morton on who is the drummer for The Voice, and him and I have become good friends over the past few years. And, you know, we went through his early childhood then, you know, going to engineering school, of all things, and quitting it because it was he knew it wasn't in his heart. Going to Berklee and then the connection that I'm making here was you talking about L.A., is he said that I knew I had to go where the gigs were of of the caliber that I wanted. I know I could have stayed in Boston, but I wanted to play on a hit TV show or I wanted to tour with the best of the best. And so he said, I just knew that that's the only move that I had with the two things that he he points out the two biggest things, decisions he's ever made in his life, even to this day was, number one, going to Berklee and number two, going to L.A. And without those combination of those two things, you wouldn't be where he is today. Richard: Sure, sure, Which Joe: So, Richard: Totally makes sense. Joe: Yeah. Richard: Which makes sense and for everybody, you know, and you've got to find your place in it. I don't know. Who knows? I mean, we're not that old. You never know. It's, I mean, to me, mean and the industry is different now. And there's, you know. I mean, because I work obviously I work with a lot of teenagers and a lot of 20 somethings and they're all and they're wonderful. But it is interesting how, like, you really can almost you can almost like feel the sort of like flash in the pan kind of vibe of whatever they're, they're currently into. Joe: Yeah. Richard: Which I don't see that as a criticism. I just mean, you know. Sometimes you, you know, I wonder, like, yhere are certain artists or certain bands and, you know, they used to get like, you know, the joke was like the oldies circuit kind of thing. But at the same time, you look at what those musicians are doing and there's something about the fact that they're that they're playing like, like I feel like that state, even with all the technology and I am a technology guy, let's not kid ourselves. Joe: Right. Richard: At the end of the day, it can't be about the technology. And I feel like there's something, you know, like. And I know they have all kinds of ups and downs with personnel and issues of personality. But like journey of all the, you know, sort of like stereotypical cliche kind of bands in a way. But it is interesting to me that decades on, when you see them play they're play like they're actually are playing Joe: All right. Richard: Late. And I think that's the right partially think that that's a big part of the reason I think that people go and see the Rolling Stones play. Because they're playing like like it's not tracks, it's not you don't you know, you don't go into their show going, well, they're going to produce it this way or produce it that way. And I don't think that has so much to do with age. I think that has to do with approach. I've become a big fan of all crazy things. I tell my students I always find this funny. I found myself a few years ago and I couldn't figure out what it was. At first I would I would be in here like in the studio and just kind of like I'd be doing like paperwork or like just whatever, like just I wasn't working on something, but I'd want happened in the background and I would find myself streaming from YouTube, live bluegrass. And I could not for the life of me, I don't like, I'm not like a country guy, I don't, what in the world is happening? You know, that's like my having, like, some sort of, like, long, weird dystopian out of body midlife musical crisis... Richard: I mean, like because I mean, I was, you know, my first musical love was classical and in prog rock. And then I got into rock and anything else. So like bluegrass is is just. We're, we're, we're moving on in a chain that was so bizarre and then I finally figured it out and it was because it was pure, like it's a bunch of guys and girls sitting with acoustic instruments, basically, and they have to play them. The instrument has to respond. You don't get the benefit of, you know, all the other stuff if you don't do it, it doesn't happen. And I have that has become incredibly compelling for me. And now so I've been spending years and I don't know if you want to get into this part of it or not. But I've been spending years trying to figure out a way to marry the two. How can you like my big thing right now is. How do you take like I love loopers, for example? The textures you can create. I really dislike the lack of in the moment control you have, though, with a looper, because once you do a loop, you're basically stuck with it. Joe: Right. Richard: You know, you can stop it. You can start it and sign. But in real time, I want to sit down like, like when you sit down behind a kit, you know, I want the high hat to respond as I'm playing it, not in some prefabricated way that I can no longer alter in any way. So I've been working on trying to figure out a way to play with all of the layers, but have them respond to me like I was sitting down behind the kit and doing it organically or at a piano or on a guitar or just, you know, a kazoo. I don't care what the instrument is but the idea that it responds immediately to me, that's a more interesting use of all of this. So anyway. Joe: What are you doing? Yeah. Not to go too far because we know, but it's interesting now, what are you doing to do that? Richard: So a lot of it has to do with um, figuring out ways to like, look what makes up the layer that you need. Do you know what I mean? So like like a loop for me, when I was like, you know, you there's there's people that are brilliant data. I mean, and that's the other thing, too. You know, you're you know, Ed Sheeran is a brilliant songwriter. He is gifted on so many levels and he's kind of perfected the looping thing. You know, Tash Sultana, I don't know who she is or not. Joe: I don't Richard: You should definitely look her up. She Joe: Work. Richard: Is. Oh, my gosh. She is about the most organic looper I've ever seen in my life to the point where you can tell that something glitched or made a mistake. And it's like she does it, it doesn't stop. She's so in the moment about the music she's making and it's it's just frickin' brilliant. It's unbelievable. But the point is, is that, you know, you start to look at all these textures and you start to see some commonalities. And then funny enough, I, I started looking at, well, what do I really need? Like like when when I when a singer songwriter starts a loop performance, a lot of times, you know, they start with like a drumbeat kind of thing, right? And, you know, they've got their acoustic guitar and they're doing all kinds of stuff. And there's not I mean, it's cool. But then it's like, well, what is that really about? You know? And so I had gotten really heavy into Mumford and Sons, of all things. And I'm watching Marcus Mumford, especially when it's just the four guys. Sorry, four guys [shows fingers]. And, you know, and the and he's doing you know, he's just got that kick drum and he's got that weird little pedal mechanism for the tambourine. But it's essentially he's doing all that momentum off of a kick drum. And because it's so well played organically, you can hear the rest of the drumkit, but you don't actually need it. I know for a fact that you in studio work because, you know, I've talked about this. You have a less is more kind of approach. You know, you don't have to you know, don't get me wrong, we're all fans of Neil Peart. I mean, Joe: Yes. Richard: You know, God rest his soul. The man was a genius on so many levels, but we're not gonna be able to pull that off. Like, I mean, he he could he could fill the space and you didn't go "Well, that was gratuitous." Joe: Yeah. Richard: You know, that's a I mean, you know, he's like he's not the only drummer. I think that could really get away with that consistently. Simon Phillips may be another one. But that's just and that's just just my opinion. But my point being, what I've basically been doing is I'm looking at the layers of what can you actually do and then essentially it's a variation on voice splitting. So if I take a tone and I branch it out and I noodle with it and essentially process it in a certain way, you don't necessarily know what it is that I'm playing from. But then it goes even further, and I promise we won't stay too long on this. But just because this is where my brain goes, Joe: That's right. Richard: Still, I had developed this hole and there's some video and stuff you can I mean, I'll send you some links and stuff of early, like prototypes of what I was doing and it's fun. But it's are real, first, I was a real pain to get a song prepped. Like the irony of the amount of time it would take me to get a song prep so that it could feel natural and organic was just like killing me. Like it, it became so creatively so, so I went back, I've gone back and I've read redressed it. And the crazy thing is, is so I started looking at instead of for the drum kit, I started looking at the relationship between the kick drum and the bass drum. And part of that was because at one point years ago, I had developed this really cool way to simulate what sounded like drums off of an acoustic guitar without having to play it as a loop like it was coming essentially off the strings, believe it or not. And it sounded really cool. And then I would do like some coffeehouse gigs or some, you know, whatever, some small shows and things, theater kind of gigs and stuff. And I realized that people like if they knew what I was doing, they'd be all over it. But just as a listener, it was like, oh yeah, he's got backing tracks. An I'm like, no wait, you've missed the whole point. And then I realize. And then. And then you like and I know, you know, you perform all the time. You can't really blame your audience if they if they don't get what you're doing, that's on you. You know, there's only so far you can go. Oh yeah. They didn't understand like Joe: Right. Richard: I mean, it's just, you Joe: Right. Richard: Know, you can't play that game successfully. I don't think anybody can. So I've gone back now and I've started to look at what really is required for momentum. And can I treat like for some reason, hearing a bass line off of a guitar? We'll make that jump. I'm still trying to figure out how far do I go with the actual percussion sounds and things, but that's also to me, part of it is I'm a big process guy. I come back to that all the time. This, to me is fascinating. I've been playing with this concept since before my oldest son was born. And I'm really, really freakin old. It's been a long time, Joe: No, Richard: But Joe: I Richard: I. Joe: Really friggin old. Richard: Fair enough... Joe: I Richard: Off. Joe: Don't. Richard: Fair enough, now you're not. And it's just a number anyway, Joe: Right. Richard: Even if you were. And even if I was. No. But seriously, you know, to me, it's the process. I think that. That's the fascinating part. I am reminded Mick Jagger has been asked how many times what you know, "How do you write a hit song?" And I love his response in certain in one interview. He's like, "I don't know and as soon as I figure it out, I'm probably done." Joe: Yeah, Richard: Like, I don't want to know Joe: Yeah, it's interesting. Richard: Why it looked like it. It kind of ruins the magic of it. Joe: Right. Richard: I think there's great merit in, you know, I think art in all of its forms. And for me, it's music is its own, kind of like its own living, breathing entity. And you communicate with it. And, you know, if you if it's if you're working with it collaboratively, it's there's some way, you know, these amazing things will happen. And if you piss it off, it's like it takes its toys and goes home and then you're stuck. And I don't know what to do anymore. I mean, that's but that's that's literally my my thing. Which maybe I don't like I said, I can talk for like I went two and a half hours. I can so beat that Joe. I have. Oh my gosh. I love Joe: So Richard: The sound of my own voice. Joe: That Richard: I'm not going do that. I won't do that to you. Joe: No. Richard: But I know what it's like about the program. Joe: Well, no but, but because we talked about a couple of things here, I'm just going to put. Just add my own two cents based on, you know, the whole looping thing for me. I also love and I'm enamored when I watch it done. The problem that I have when it's in a live situation and I deal with it with the people that, you know, my other persona is being the owner of Onstage Entertainment, right? So booking a lot of entertainment in here in both Arizona and Colorado. I, I have to ask some of them that, OK, I don't mind you looping, but you have to get into the song within the first, like, minute to loop the layer, you know, the layers. And there's I don't know, I don't loop I mean, I don't do it. So I don't, I can't tell them what to do and I can't feel their pain. But if you're going to do it, you got to be quick at it and you got to figure out how to get into the song quickly because people whose interest it just. Richard: Well, you're not wrong. I mean, that's the other thing. I mean, you know, mostly, you know, you do the looping thing and it's like the first time, the first song. That's really a two and a half minute song that takes you 12 minutes to perform. And the audience is like, okay, that was cool. Three songs in and I can tell you this from experience. Some of this is because I don't have the gift that certain people do for looping, which is probably why I gave up on looping in some respects, and now but now I mean, like again a door closes. This is so much more creatively interesting for me. But, you know, three or four songs in the audience is always like we've seen this trick before. We know. We know they. They don't know what's gonna happen specifically, but they kind of know where it's headed. And I think some of that's the lack of interaction in all honesty, I think that's why you see some people like, you know, time. But the looping thing I've I. The one thing that fascinates me about Ed Sheeran is genius level songwriter, brilliant performer. Albums sound nothing like the live show albums are basically a band. Then he goes out by himself, which is very fascinating to me, you know, but on the other hand, I kind of respect it because that kind of I absolutely respect it because to me that's using looping in an effective way, using technology in an effective way. But I'm with you. I, I can imagine, you know, that battle. You're right, people don't, but especially, you know, bars and clubs and stuff. There's Joe: Yeah. Richard: Only so they that you can go and. And again, I think one of the things I know I deal with this a lot with my students is, you know, there is a line that you have you have to accept the fact that if you're going to go off on those musical tangents, that may be incredibly invigorating for you personally, you have to be willing to accept the fact that, you know, you may not get all the gigs you want. You know, or you may not get the type of gig that you think you deserve because people are going to you know, if that's you know, if that's not what the listener wants, that's not what the listener wants. And then, then and then that needs to, but that has to be OK, too. I mean, I think, you know, I firmly believe it's kind of like there's two music industries in a way. There's the industry that we see on TV that, you know, is, you know, is is the big influencers and stuff. And the award shows and everything else. And God love him for it. I like I said, I would love to have their problems, but then there's all this other stuff, but isn't going to make it beyond, you know, it's going to play the smaller clubs and it's going to be in in more intimate settings. Richard: But that's OK, you know what I mean? Like, that's OK. And at least now that's when you and I were growing up. You know, we were we were still of the generation where if it did come on the radio, you didn't hear it. You know, or you had to really I mean, I can remember you would spend hours at a record store. Because you couldn't return it. You know, I mean, you really chose carefully, you know, those, those you know that 10 bucks or 20 bucks or whatever it happened to be, you know, before we really got into the whole Napster opens up streaming for us. You know, world. You know, it's a totally different thing in it's interesting talking to my students about that, because some of them... It's that they are still very careful and they'll tell me they're like, my time is valuable to me. And they'll stay, but, but there's still even with them, there's still a sense of acceptable risk. You know, for, whatever, 10 bucks a month or whatever you spend for whatever streaming platform. I mean, that's like, ya know, that's insane to me. Joe: Yeah, Richard: I mean, Joe: Yeah. Richard: That you can get pretty much every recording that exists for 10 bucks a month. Which Joe: Yeah, Richard: Then also Joe: It's. Richard: Begs the begs the question, is it worth being worried about signing the big record deal anyway? Because you're not gonna make any money for it anyway. Maybe just go make what your heart wants you to make artistically. You know, 50 percent of not much. OK, now you are getting that much in the first place. But. Joe: Yeah, yeah, and it's, it's for them, you know, for all of us these days with the streaming part of it, it's like drinking water through a firehose when it comes to the amount of content you can actually take in. Where you? Yeah, and you and I are talking. It's like, yeah. Go to the right. You know, you you mowed for lawns. You have ten bucks to go buy the one album that you've been waiting to get Richard: Exactly. Joe: In. Richard: Exactly, exactly. But Joe: Yeah. Richard: It made it so much more, you know, I cannot remember buying an album and not sitting down and listening to it, track for track, multiple times all the way through. Joe: Reading all the liner notes, Richard: Exactly. Joe: Knowing Richard: Exact. Joe: Everybody who played on it every yeah, Richard: Yep, yep, Joe: Yeah. Richard: Or like I can remember. I can't remember what album it was, but I can remember buying an album, taking it home to listen to and then we like I remember my parents were like, we have we have something to go to in like 20 minutes or something. And I can remember sitting there thinking, ok do I put on listen, like the first two tracks or do I wait till I get homesick and listen to the whole thing? And I waited. You know, because there was something about that experience. And even now I find myself, you know, fast forward and, you know, I mean, it just did it. It's I find myself with some of those bad habits a little bit that I wish I didn't, necessarily...but it is what it is. Joe: Yes. Well, and two other things you touched upon that I know you. You brought it up and it's something that I deal with. But I took a position a long time ago and I started Onstage, that I actually don't hire anyone that runs tracks. And I did it purely for the fact that I didn't want any musicians being put out of work on basically my watch for lack of a better term. Richard: Oh, that's awesome. Joe: So that's just the position I took. And I don't have anything, you know, like there's a like I had a corporate gig. So when I say that, it's really like the local type stuff. So I'm not going to, I'm not going to put a single guy in a resort and put a bass player and drummer out of work because he walks in with bass and drums on tracks and back and backup vocals. And, you know, these other people are sitting home and not working. But the caveat with that is if I there's a corporate band that I hired out of Montreal, Canada, who had amazing tracks that they had built from scratch for themselves. Now, the difference between them is that every single track that they had, there was literally an instrument onstage playing it. So all it was for was for the thickness of the sound. Richard: Sure, sure. Right. Joe: There was literally not one sound on those tracks that did not exist as a human being on the stage. Richard: Right. See, and I think that you're hitting on something to me that's really important, which is intent. Like, I think that gets lost in all of this because we're so we're so caught up in the spectacle. Or the site. You know, I was just at a wedding not too long ago for for one of my nephews and it was interesting because the band, the band was they were good. This is back in Ohio where I grew up, but it was lots of tracks. And it was interesting the way, you know, I'm sitting there picking the thing apart because that's where my head goes. But the rest of my family's just enjoying the sound. You know, almost to the point where, like I've seen deejay's lately, do a thing, oh, sorry, my son's come in and Joe: Hmm Richard: Interrupt Joe: Hmm, hmm, Richard: Here Joe: Hmm, Richard: For a second. Joe: That's Richard: We have Joe: Totally Richard: To Joe: Fine. Richard: Apologize. My apologies, Joe. Joe: No, Richard: That's Joe: It's all Richard: My Joe: Good. Richard: Ex, Gray. He's gone and he's gone in for your drumming job. Joe: All right, perfect. Richard: His no, but I think I'm, you know, like deejay's lately, you see them like they'll travel with a drummer. And I actually think that's a really good thing. You know, it's, it's, it is a little bit in the other direction, because I actually I respect that decision you've made and I actually I did not realize that that's awesome. And I think, I think the world of professional musicians would be better off if more of the owners of these companies, such as yourself, took a stance like you do. But on the other hand, you come from this as a player. So you have a you know, I think some of this is, you know, that battle. You know what that's, you understand on a different level. And nothing against promoters, managers and anybody else out there but a lot of them don't. Is my as a you know, they're well-meaning, but they don't you know, they don't get it. You know. Joe: Yeah, we've talked about this a lot. You know that the success of what happened with my booking agency is the fact that I take the position and I also have the business acumen part of it. So I'm kind of a hybrid in a way where I can understand what I have to deliver to the end client and how professional all of that has to be and at the same time, I have to put my self in the position of the performers or performer, either one. And that, you know, when it's really hot outside, they need shade and if it's too hot, it's just impossible to perform outside in Arizona. And yet, because we live in Arizona and it's the desert, you know what? It gets freaking cold in the wintertime. So, and the fact that other than a singer who then has to worry about catching some sort of cold or bronchitis or something, that all the musicians use their fingers and as soon as your fingers freeze up, the performance goes downhill and everyone's upset and it just doesn't make for a good... So in our contracts, it's very in-depth about, you know, needing shade and needing heaters in the winter and then if it's too hot or too cold, that has to be moved inside. And we, had ad nauseum, I could talk about all Richard: No, Joe: This, Richard: Of course. Joe: You know, circumstances, but that's the approach that I took. Richard: But it's interesting, too, because like as you're as you're describing all of us, I keep coming to the word legacy like like like your own sort of personal legacy and all of this like, you know, and I've known you now for years. So I kind of I feel like I, I. I can say this maybe with a little bit of insight, if you like. I know you to be like you need to be able to sleep at night like you don't like it. But that's important. Like, look, I know that, you know, some of that's just because you couldn't send somebody on a gig that you yourself wouldn't feel comfortable taking, which I think is important, because, again, I think, you know, again, I deal with a lot of younger musicians, you know, a lot of teenagers, lot of 20 somethings with, you know, with the the college stuff folks that I work with, too. And, you know, you do have to kind of be aware, you know, the pay to play thing that goes on a lot. I see a lot of younger musicians that get really excited over gonna get this gig at blah blah, blah, blah plays. That's awesome! Can you buy a ticket? Because we have to sell 200 of them Joe: Yeah, Richard: To get Joe: Yeah. Richard: The opening spot. I'm thinking to myself, I know I get it. I mean, I you know, I understand there are costs and everybody needs to be able to make a living and provide for themselves and their families. And I really do understand that. But it's, there's something off putting about like, like to me, I feel like art's disposable enough, like it's treated almost like a fast food meal sometimes that, that going into that world, I don't know. I just, I just feel like, you know, one of the things I'm always telling kids is, you know. To me and this is this has always been my approach, and if I ever decide that I want to get myself out of this studio environment here where I noodle around, which I might, you know, in my midlife extended crisis of who knows what the heck's going on right now. I actually had plans and then the COVID thing kind of hit. But that's a separate conversation, I suppose. But no, but to think about, you know. We look at gigs, I think, especially younger musicians, they look at gigs in this context of, I have to get the gig for the exposure and the, quote, "fame." But I also equally need the money from the gig, and I think that that's in some ways, the problem. Everybody's got to eat, everybody needs to. I get, I understand that. But I do think that when you can eliminate either one or the other from the equation, you actually give yourself more opportunities. Joe: Yeah, it's. Richard: You know, like if you can, you know, and now I realize I'm in a very unique situation. I could take a gig or not just for the joy of the gig. And then one of the reasons why I started to think about I should really start playing out again just for my own sense of self and to noodle around with this not looping looper thing, to be perfectly honest with you in front of people, was because I realized I don't really care if I make any money doing a gig. Of course, I would love to get some cash, you know, some money in my pocket for for for performing. But at the same time, it's like you priority, you know what what matters? And I think that that's part of it, you know, especially now, you know, because there isn't you know, it's really tough. As you know, being a gigging musician is really brutal and obviously right now it's basically impossible, Joe: All right. Richard: You know, with with the situation we're in. But I do think. Like, it's funny, like I've had a lot of conversations with a lot of my, my students about the fact that I know and just a lot of people in general. There are some you know, this is horrible right now. I mean, it just it is devastating the live music industry, which is like, what, eight billion dollars annually or something at a minimum is just devastated right now. And all of the ripple effect of it is, is just it's gutting. But I do think there is also some good possibly to come out of this. The number of people I talk to, younger people that are so excited at the notion of when I can go see another show, like the appreciation for it. You know, like when you're younger and like you can go to any show you want, anytime you want, basically because you've got all your income is basically disposable and, you know, whatever else or even if it's not but you can you can seriously prioritize it. You know, you not to worry about house and car and bubble on food. And I know some kids do, I'm, I'm speaking generalities, but just in general. Joe: Yeah. Richard: When that's been removed now. It is so interesting, the number of conversations I've had with kids that are like, WOW!, I'm just so appreciative of when I'll be able to do that again. Or, or the realization that that because we would we talk about it all the time and might within my classes, like, OK, you go to that show. I don't care what show it is. That person onstage, even if it's a soloist, isn't the only person involved in you seeing that show. They just aren't. There's no circumstance where it's just them. And you start to really now understand how it all changes, you know? You know, or not changes but how, I mean, it's gone right now, you know, and they're talking about 2021 before major tours happen again, major festivals and things like that. I want to get all the pressing and down on stuff. But but Joe: Oh, Richard: I think. But I mean, it's like you don't already know this. I'm sure you. Joe: I have. I have tickets to see the Doobie Brothers and the Eagles. Yeah. And and that the Eagles, I think, was supposed to happen in April. That's been delayed, I think, until October or December and you know, there's a good chance they're all going to be moved until 2021 to just Richard: Yeah, Joe: Me. Richard: It. Joe: No one's gonna want to go to a concert and sit, you know, six feet apart from the person they went with and sit, you know, have every other row with someone, it's just it would be weird Richard: Well, and Joe: Because. Richard: Not to even some more paranoid, but like I've been reading about different things about like I guess they did a study recently about that choir that had that rehearsal before anybody realized it was a pandemic. But then like 40 out of the 60 people that were in the choir wound up getting tested. They're testing positive. Joe: Oh, wow. Richard: And they you know, I mean, it's a horrible tragedy, I think like two or three of them passed away from it and the whole circumstance was awful and they were going off of all the information they had, which at the time was nothing. And I mean, the whole thing is a terrible tragedy. But out of that, they recreated the circumstances. They obviously didn't infect people again, but they started to look at how singing and things of that nature, what it does to the transmission of a disease, you know, of a virus of this nature and then you think about people that like an event where they're shouting or screaming or singing along and all this other stuff. And you just think to yourself, you know, how is this going to look? Joe: Yeah. Richard: You know what we know? I don't know. It's it's, a it's an interesting. If it wasn't so devastating to the to people that I personally know and just to the industry that I'm aware of and the ripple effects of all of that, it would be just fascinating. But instead, it's just I mean, it's just. Joe: Yes. Richard: It is really. It just makes me really sad and I'm really grateful, like I feel weird sitting in a studio talking to you right now because I feel like almost like I'm, I'm unintentionally flexing and I don't mean to be. It's just, you know. I never thought my life musically would be in a place where I could feel musically secure more than most musicians out there in the world. That is such a bizarre moment of clarity for me. I almost feel obligated to be making more music right now. Not because anybody needs to hear it or that it'll be any good, but almost because I feel like if I don't, I'm being incredibly selfish, that I have the option to do it and I'm not Joe: Right. Richard: Taking advantage of it. Joe: A. Richard: I feel like, you know. You can believe this, but I feel like I would just do like such an ass, like if Joe: Now I get it. Richard: I feel like, I feel like I believe in karma. And I just, I just feel like I have I have an obligation, especially I'm about to head into summer, which changes up my teaching obligations and my, you know, Joe: Yes. Richard: Obligations of that nature. And running the studios are going to be very different for the foreseeable future, at least. Joe: Yes. Richard: Wrote Joe: And it's then Richard: permanent excuse Joe: It's like, no, yeah. No. And I get it. And it's in a lot of our talent is struggling. You know, that that I personally know and had, had helped to get a fair amount of work that they, you know, at times where they don't have work and they're struggling just to put food on the table and pay their car payment, keep a roof over their head. They now are sort of forced into possibly going into debt to buy a webcam and a microphone and and learn, you know, some sort of software if need be, or if they just end up going live on Zoom or Facebook or any of the streaming platforms. But, you know, they're putting in there they're Venmo and PayPal handles as a virtual tip jar just to try to make any sort of money. Richard: Yeah, anything is Joe: And Richard: Anything. Joe: Yeah, Richard: Mm Joe: And Richard: Hmm. Joe: It's it's really tough. So, yeah, I keep brainstorming on ways to try to figure out a way to help. And I haven't come up with it yet. I but I'm working on it. It's not like I'm sitting here, I'm not you know, I'm lucky enough that I had a business where because at one point I was the seven day week musician, you know, I was playing, you remember, and Richard: I do. Joe: That's all I Richard: I Joe: Did Richard: Do. Yeah. Joe: Before. Richard: Yeah. You were impossible to get a hold of because it would always be like a message back, like dude I'll call you later, I'm on, I'm like, you know, 17 gigs today. Joe: Yeah, right. Yeah. But so I get it. Again, we go back to. I've I've lived it and I understand where it's all coming from. Now I just have to figure a way to help and so that's a struggle for me. But that's that's a whole like you said, it's a whole different conversation. And the one last piece that you touched upon that I don't want to forget is that in the conversation I had with Nate Morton, the drummer from The Voice, there's a connector in L.A. that you may or may not have heard of that that I knew when I wanted to, you know, possibly get a tour. A guy named Barry Squire and Barry is basically the music matchmaker out there. So if Cher is looking for a band, Barry will put out the notice that Cher is about to go on tour and they need this, this and this. Same thing with Pink or any of those, Barry was the guy to basically piece these bands together in L.A. for these big tours. Richard: Interesting, Joe: And Richard: I did. Joe: And so now the listing and Barry puts these listings up now on, on Facebook and it's obviously become a lot easier as part of the discussion I had with Nate, where it used to be, hey, you go to this executive's office and you pick up a C.D. or tape, you learn these three songs on it, you come to this studio/soundstage on the Saturday at 1:00, you play the songs and we'll let you know kind of thing. Now, Barry posts these things on Facebook and its he post the requirements. And, you know, everyone has to be pretty much for the most part, 25 or younger, you know, there's there's no none of these things that are going to take all these old dudes like us out on tour. Richard: Right. Joe: Her Richard: Right Joe: Or me Richard: Now, of course. Joe: Anyhow. Richard: No, no, no, no, no, I'm right there with you. I'm Joe: But Richard: With you. Joe: But the instead of it being the old style that you and I are used to, which is, you know, bass, drums, maybe two guitars, keys and a couple of back, backup singers or maybe a horn section. Now it's guitar, drums and a multi instrumentalist that knows Ableton. So it's, it's that and Barry and Nate were talking, they went to lunch a few weeks ago. They'll always be a drummer because the visual part of it, of of that makes it look like it's a band. So that that one seat, you know, thankfully, has not been necessary, eliminated as much as the others. But it's just so weird and Nate and I were talking was like, I mean, I know I, I don't know Ableton anywhere near that I could say I could do it to go get a gig and neither does Nate. But that's the state of things right now. And then, and then Nate's talking and he's like, and if the band becomes, you know, popular and there's more money in the budget, they don't turn around and then start adding bass and guitar and keys that they add more production, they add dancers, they are they whatever. It's just it's so weird to me. Richard: Well, yes, the idea of a show, it's different, you know. That's why, that's why it still comes back to me of this idea of playing. And I think that, I don't know, Like like, do you still sit down to play just for the joy of playing? Joe: I, I do here and there, but nowhere near as much as I should. Richard: Well, nobody ever does that as much as they should. Joe: Yeah. And it's like we Richard: But. Joe: Played a gig last Wednesday and we played out in the parking lot at an assisted living complex for Richard: Oh, Joe: The Richard: Cool. Joe: For the residents because these elderly people had not been out of this place for the last two months or whatever. Richard: Oh, Joe: They're Richard: My Joe: Just Richard: Gosh. Joe: Going stir crazy. Richard: Sure, Joe: So Richard: Sure. Joe: There was four different jazz combos and we were setup out in the parking lot where the people could come out on their balconies and Richard: Oh, Joe: We played to Richard: How Joe: Them. Richard: Cool. Joe: Yeah, it was fun and it was cool. And at the end, like all the guys in the band are like, God, I so misplaying, like I just the hell with practicing, I just want to play because there's that interaction on stage and anticipating where that that other player is going to next and just being able to interact and lock in with somebody. And because I left the gig going I really got to practice. And everybody's like, no, we're just gotta play, we just it's more fun just playing. So, Richard: Yeah, yeah, Joe: Yeah. Richard: And that's I think that I think there's something about that visceral live element. You know, Joe: Yeah. Richard: We it's funny when, when when, when the COVID shut down happened, it sort of sent obviously a lot of chaos into the whole educational system, especially into arts education, which regardless of titles and everything else, I am basically running an arts program. You know, call it what you want, but it's an arts program. And it's been it was interesting what wound up happening very much and that's why I truly thought I'm going to get all these kids that are just going to send me you know, here's this recording I worked on at home, here's this work and I've got a lot of those. I mean, that's. And it's great. But the lot of them, first of all, a lot of them, you know, you started to really see the demographic of the students and who had what available to them. Joe: Yeah, Richard: Lots of posturing and Joe: Yeah. Richard: In high school certainly about that and that's fine. But I don't begrudge because any we've distributed gear as much as possible in that. But it was, you know, was interesting how a lot of them really enjoyed the live streams we did more than anything else. So we wound up doing our big annual end of year concert anyway. But we did it online on Zoom. It was clunky we were subjected to all kinds of elements related to streaming and what mics they had and Wi-Fi connectivity and everything else and yet in the moment, the fact that it wasn't taped, that we, you know, like Joe: Yeah. Richard: I had some kids that played some sessions, that we just kind of watch the sessions on the screen, which was still cool and it was really awesome. I had one group that actually did go in and they pre-recorded their parts and filmed themselves while they did it and then we spliced it together into kind of like a live video and and whatnot. But most of it was a kid with their guitar, at the piano or whatever it happened to be singing. You know, in some cases it was just through their phone and imperfect, absolutely! But, it it had that kind of because you knew it was right then. And there wasn't a well, we're going to go back and fix it in post kind of option. It was interesting that, that, you know, you still got a little bit of that same charge. I mean, it was different because obviously you don't get the you know, you don't hear the applause in the same Joe: Yeah, Richard: Way that you're hopefully Joe: Yeah. Richard: Getting you know, there wasn't really production in terms of lights and stuff that we normally would do. But, you know, because I asked a lot of them, you know, should we be prerecording this and some of them are like, yeah, that would be better for me. But that was because of nervousness that they always have had inherently. You know, these are kids that don't like to get up on stage, even though they're wonderfully talented. They just may be, you know, at that age, they're, they're they get freaked out by it or whatever. But the vast majority wanted it live and in the moment, warts and all. And I found that to be very fascinating. Joe: Yeah, Richard: And Joe: That's cool. Richard: We wound up, you know. We did a tie. I think we did. I think we did like seven or eight live broadcast. We're still doing them. We've done a bunch of podcasts, but it's been interesting watching the students. Their response, and maybe it's not an entirely, like I'd like, I don't think that I can, I always look at my own students and I go, I probably shouldn't be lumping you in with every other teenager is like a generality because they tend to be a little bit of a unique and and if we're being honest, I probably do have a bit of an influence on their approach Joe: Right. Richard: In that regard. Joe: Yeah. Richard: Hopefully a good way. But I do think it's interesting, like what you're saying, that there's something about a live response, even if it's remote, even if it's from streaming, it still beats the just watching video. Joe: Yeah, Richard: There's something. And organic and visceral about it. Joe: Yep. Richard: Which is Joe: All Richard: Important. Joe: Right, well, you know, since we are now, you know, sort of talking about the graduation piece, I wanted to...so I always refer to it as CMAS and I think that's probably what most of you do. But it's Creative Musical Arts and Science program, correct? OK, So this is happening at Arcadia High School here in, are we, this is considered Phoenix. You're right down the street from me, right? So it's Phoenix. Richard: Yes, well, I'm yeah. Joe: The border is. I don't know. Richard: Yeah, it's Scottsdale Unified School District, but it's technically in greater Phoenix we're like I want to say, what's 48 Street and Indian School and what is it? 56th is the line into Scottsdale. Joe: Ok. Richard: I don't actually know. I mean, I've been at that school for, gosh, 20 plus years, if you can believe that...long time. Joe: Yeah. Richard: I don't know. I was long before my time how they managed to carve out that section of, you know why it's Scottsdale and not in Phoenix Union, I don't know. Joe: All right. OK. So you just mentioned 20 some years ago, so when did you get to this school? Richard: Ok, so let me see. How do I explain this? 1990 or something so I'm at the U Of A Joe: Ok. Richard: I have finished my second master's degree in orchestral conducting, which I still miss, I, you know, if only for not having enough time in the day. Basically, I start working in Tucson at one of the high schools and a middle school, I've got an orchestra program that I love. I am always still for years and years and when I did it, I grew up in the Midwest. So as an undergrad and as a grad student and at different times and in different places, I was always gigging as a very mediocre drummer. I like to say I was, I was sort of the, the, would you want to call it? I brought the game down for everybody else, But um..but, you know, and so I done some touring, nothing, nothing fancy. So but I had done a lot of it, I loved the studio experience and also their stuff. But there was no at the time at least available to me, you only were really able to do that kind of independently and on your own. And there was very much this sense of, you know, we were we were talking before about two different music industries well, there were sort of like two different musical experiences. You had the experience you could have as a student. I mean, you know, you know, it was one thing and there were in it, it was great. I mean, don't get me wrong, I have such fond memories of growing up. And I still every now and then I am lucky enough, I guess. I've talked to my old high school band director a few times, he's long since retired. He drives trains now, of all things Joe: Wow. Richard: Which he just loves. Old, old military, retired guy, sweetheart of a guy, brilliant musician, far more, I didn't realize his musical chops. This is another problem I have like I hadn't like it takes me a while to realize something in the moment. Oh my gosh. The level of lost opportunity on my count two, like not tap into more of his experience as he came out of a military band experience but he had this incredibly open view of what music was for, even if he had a particular love of a certain style and what not. But I'm I've Joe: Wait, Richard: Got this. Joe: Before before you leave, that point is just amazing that you just said that because I look at you and go, God, if I only had a band teacher in high school like you. My teacher, and God rest his soul, I think I'm sure he's gone by now but I was just there doing it, collecting the paycheck, Richard: Sure, Joe: Going through the Richard: Sure. Joe: Motions. Just it was just the worst. And. Richard: And it can't. Yeah, I mean, I. I don't know, I can't speak to that. I mean, the educator in me says, you know, at a certain point you can it's very easy to get disenchanted if you get wrapped up in it and you never know. I mean, you know, the further back you go. People that I get asked all the time, you know, did you have something like CMAS when you were in high school or whatever? And I can't tell if they're sometimes I wonder if they're being sarcastic, if they've completely misjudged my age, if, you know, I don't even know where it's coming from. But, but the truth of the matter is, is that it's not a matter of if I did or not, it wasn't even an option. It just literally wasn't a possibility. I can't, I can't fault Pete Metzker was his name, is his name or Jeff Bieler or Bob Wagner. I literally remember all of these people...West Frickey. They were brilliant! They didn't, if they, if you would come to them and said, we have this idea and you described what I built with the CMAS Program, what I designed, honestly, I think they would have been like, OK, that's really cool! We can't, like we, if we could figure out how to do that in the architecture or the in, the in, the the infrastructure, if you will, of music education at the time, I really think they probably would have been like, OK, sure! Let's do it! I don't think it was an option. I mean, I really think that, you know, there's a prospective element. I'm not that old but it does remind me a little bit of what I have conversations with students about classical music, for example. And I always tell them the same thing. Richard: You know, you can't, you can't fault Beethoven or Mozart and say you don't like their music because there's no electric guitar. Because there wasn't even electricity at the time. You can't you know, you're missing the whole point. You don't think, like that can't be your thing. In the same way when I have students who are very, very much of a more and this is fine too, but we'll say a more traditional mindset. I'm like, you can't look at a kid who wants to do like turntables and say that's not a legitimate musical instrument. You do it, for the same exact reason because you've got to deal with intent, you just you just have to. And that's the thing that like I said, I look back on those that band director and those teachers, all of them throughout all of my school years, as it were. And Dave Vroman, I mean, I could list all these professors throughout, you know, college that some of which I'm still friends with, which is really wonderful too, you know. Sorry, I, I have to I have to namedrop Molly Slaughter, I don't have anyone to know who she is but just for me, I got to say it karma again, and there's lots of others. Greg Sanders, Steve Heineman I'm gonna shut up now, okay...Ed Kaiser God, we would be here for a long time, but, but all of them would tell you...but, but the thing of his you is the best musicians are about intention. You know, Springsteen walks up onstage with the E Street Band and it's unbelievable and then the band takes a break for a minute and he sits down with just as acoustic guitar and it's unbelievable. Joe: Yeah. Richard: And it's I mean, look, the guy's a genius. And I mean, that's you know, you don't need me to say that. But I think the reason it works in both settings is because of his musical intentions. Joe: Yeah. Richard: It comes out different, of course, it comes out differently when you have more people and you can interact. And again, we go back to that visceral thing, but it's about intent. And I think that's what I've carried with me from all of those people. Joe: Right. Richard: I go on in any case, so I go, I go to Bradley University and become their first music educator, excuse music composition and theory graduate ever out of that university. I don't, I don't know if that's like I have two distinctions being a Bradley, one is I'm the first person ever to receive that degree from that institution, which I'm very proud of and two, I was probably the most arrogant pain in the butt student that's ever been through there in the history of that university's music school. And it was a brilliant place, it was wonderful. They had an old Moog synthesizer, that had been installed by Robert Moog himself. Joe: Oh. Richard: But it unfortunately didn't work. If I could go back now...know, you, you know, you always say if you know, if I knew then what I know now. But they allowed you know, they bought some equipment. We had, you know, an old Mac computer and we were able to do some sequencing and learn some bit. And I just kind of got bit by the bug of it. I just found it so compelling and so interesting. Didn't know what I was doing, had a couple of microphones, couldn't even tell you what they were. Probably a 58, like a beat up condenser, by whom...You know, I want to say there was a, I don't know, I want to say it was like an old Rode or an AKG or something, but it was I mean, we you know, we didn't know what we were doing. But freedom to explore the process. I mean, again, in hindsight, I see all of us greatest gift possible. Graduate, don't know what I'm going to do. So the Youngstown's, I don't know if I'm gone too far back Joe: No, Richard: Or Joe: No, Richard: Not in the story. Joe: No, no, no. Richard: So I'm going to I go to university, so Youngstown State University. Partially out of desperation, partially out of you know, I didn't, I was wandering in sort of like the the desert of my own immaturity and unawareness, you know? I just, I just I had this thought in my head that I was gonna be the next Leonard Bernstein. Not realizing that basically even the next Leonard Bernstein wasn't going to be the next Leonard Bernstein because that world doesn't exist. And it wasn't like people were telling me that but it doesn't, I mean, it just doesn't exist. And and I didn't, I wasn't that guy. I mean, that's, you know, kind of like what you were talking about before, which I disagree with your assessment of your skill set but we can have that conversation off of air sometime. But no, but, but in all seriousness, I mean, you know but I wasn't that guy. I mean, that's just that's a reality, I wasn't that guy. But while I'm in Youngstown, Stephen Gage, who's another one of these sort of like ah ha moment people. I'd done a lit..I'd done some conducting. I even put together for my senior recital at Bradley, I put together my own sort of like mini orchestra of friends just for the heck of it. And I seem to remember Vroman, Dave Vroman, who was head of the music department, and that can be one of the main conductors there, I seem to remember him saying, you know, we could have like. Richard: To help you out with this, like you didn't have to, like, do it covertly here. He's a guy I really did not appreciate nearly as much as I should have at the time, brilliant man, just brilliant, wonderful guy. But anyway, he, um, so but so Steve Gage basically goes, you know, I need a, I, I've got an opportunity for graduate student. And he was the band conductor is like, but you'll also work a little bit with the orchestras as well. And you'll get to do you know, you'll get to conduct and I'll teach you how to and he was my first real conducting teacher that I took seriously. I had taken cond
Nate Morton from "The Voice" In this episode, Part 2, we dig deeper into the audition he went on thanks to Barry Squire and his own networking becoming known as a "player" in town. Besides doing gigs around town and networking, he would go to some of the more well-known jam session so he could be seen, heard and start to build his network. As you'll hear as a constant thread throughout both parts of this conversation, networking and relationships have been key to Nate's growth and success. We talk about the sequence of auditions and gigs in a timeline so you can get a feel for the progression of what Nate went through to bring us current to today. In 2005, there's the lengthy audition for "Rock Star: INXS" and then in 2006, "Rock Start: Supernova". Then onto "The Bonnie Hunt Show" from September 2008 to May 2010. Finally in 2011, he lands one of the greatest gigs of all times, "The Voice" We talk more about his early days in Los Angeles and we walk through his timeline of auditions, touring gigs with well-known artists and end in the present day. Enjoy and thank you for listening!! ********** Nate Morton: Nate's Website: https://natemortondrums.com/ Fraudprophets Website: http://www.fraudprophets.com/ YouTube: Nate Morton Drum Cam Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/natemortondrums/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/n8drumz/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/n8drumz Nate's company affiliations include: Pearl drums & percussion Zildjian cymbals & sticks Roland Remo ePad Cympad GoPro Sennheiser Kelly SHU WingKey https://youtu.be/pjljYtm5DCQ Podcast Music By: Andy Galore, Album: "Out and About", Song: "Chicken & Scotch" 2014 Andy's Links: http://andygalore.com/ https://www.facebook.com/andygalorebass Subscribe, Rate & Review: I would love if you could subscribe to the podcast and leave an honest rating & review. This will encourage other people to listen and allow us to grow as a community. The bigger we get as a community, the bigger the impact we can have on the world. If you enjoy the podcast, would you please consider leaving a short review on Apple Podcasts/iTunes? It takes less than 60 seconds, and it really makes a difference in helping to convince hard-to-get guests. For show notes and past guests, please visit: https://joecostelloglobal.com/#thejoecostelloshow Sign up for Joe's email newsletter at: https://joecostelloglobal.com/#signup For transcripts of episodes, go to: https://joecostelloglobal.com/#thejoecostelloshow Follow Joe: Twitter: https://twitter.com/jcostelloglobal Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jcostelloglobal/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/jcostelloglobal/ YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCUZsrJsf8-1dS6ddAa9Sr1Q?view_as=subscriber Transcript Part 2 - Nate Morton Interview: Joe: And some of Nate: I Joe: The process, Nate: Will say. Joe: Like with the Billy Myers or gay. Right. With with that with that two day audition series that happened. Nate: Yep. Joe: Were you given music ahead of time or did you have to go in and just wing it? Nate: Oh, God. No, no, no, no. If you're gonna do an audition typically back in that era and they would say, you know, oh, go to her manager's office and pick up this C.D. and the he would have, you know, three songs on it and they would generally be listed in the order that they were gonna be released as singles. You know, here's the first single second, third. And in the case of Billy Myers, I feel like her single was already out or was a song called Kiss the Rain. Kenny Aronoff, I think, played drums on the original recording. Joe: Ok. Nate: And yeah, that dude. Yeah. You know that. Yeah. That that up and coming guy. Joe: Right. Nate: What Joe: Right. Nate: He's got, he's got a lot of potential. Joe: Yeah. Nate: I think if he sticks with it, he's really Joe: Right. Nate: Going to Joe: Yeah, Nate: Go far. Joe: Yeah. Nate: I hope, I hope people get my, my stupid sense of humor Joe: They Nate: Like Joe: Totally. Nate: They're just out there just not like oh my God. He said he thinks Kenny Arnow is up and coming. Joe: The Nate: Oh, my God. He's an idiot. That guy. Joe: No. Nate: So, yes, Kenny, if you're listening. I'm sorry. Just joking. So. So I pick up, you know, you pick up the C.D. and. This is twenty, twenty years before almost 20 years before I have to start. No, no, no, no, no. I think that that. I'm sorry. That would have been in the. That would've been let's call it let's call it ninety nine. Two thousand area. And then it wasn't until. Two thousand, five, six or so when Rockstar came along, which is which is this TV show that I did where we started having to learn these like kind of high volumes of songs, right. Where it's like, oh, there's fifteen songs this week to learn, which in retrospect doesn't seem like a lot because there are times on the voice when it's like, OK, here's the thirty six songs rolling this week. Joe: It's amazing. Nate: But at that time to have to come in and in a week learn 14 songs or 12 songs, it was like, I mean if you do a tour. If you do a tour, you might be rehearsing. Let's just say six days a week. Seven or eight hours a day. And you, depending on the tour you're doing and the level you're doing. I mean, you might be learning two songs a day. You're not Joe: Hey, Nate: Saying Joe: Yeah. Nate: Muddy Lane shoes on the day because the keyboard players are dialing sounds and this is that I didn't want to wear. It was it was actually literally that it was literally out of a 10 hour day. The keyboard players and guitar players were dialing sounds for seven and a half or eight hours of getting the sound right for you. The track was so the idea that you would come in and in the space of a week, from Monday to Saturday, Saturday, really Monday to Sunday, you know, it's like Monday and Tuesday, you've got to learn 14 songs because you're seeing the contestants on Wednesday and Thursday. I mean, at that, like I said now. I mean, I could I could, I could. You know, this sounds terrible, but, I mean, I could do that and read a book and crochet a sweater at the same time. Well, but then but then the idea of fourteens on the two days like war. So anyway, my Joe: And this Nate: Only. Joe: Was the rock star time frame that you're talking about. Nate: Correct. Joe: When? Nate: This was the beginning Joe: Ok. Nate: Of rock star. This is Joe: All Nate: The Joe: Right. Nate: Beginning of rock star. Joe: Ok. Nate: So. So. Joe: And how did you get that? Like. Morgan walks in the room and like every drummer runs its runs to the corner like a bunch. Nate: Are you out of your mind? Joe: So don't don't you know, don't belittle Nate: Okay, okay, okay, Joe: The Nate: Okay, Joe: Fact Nate: Ok. Joe: That you had to go do something to get these gigs. That's important. Nate: Ok, Joe. Joe: It's. Nate: Ok. Why did you ask me? Ask me? Joe: Ok, so you were with Nate: Ask Joe: Billy Nate: Me, Joe: Myers Nate: Ask me, Joe: And then. Nate: Ask me the big question, which is because this is this is this was this is the big question that I'll bring it on home. Ask me the big question, which is how did you get the gig on The Voice? Joe: No, because there's so many other things in Nate: No, Joe: Between. Nate: No, no, no, no. Just Joe: Oh, Nate: Try Joe: I thought there Nate: It. Joe: Was. Nate: No, no, no, just try Joe: Ok. Nate: It. Joe: Really? OK. So Nate, how did you get the audition on The Voice? Nate: No, no, no, no, no, no. The gate, the gate stretch. Joe: Oh, the Nate: Try, Joe: Gag Nate: Try again. Try again, Joe. Nate, how did you get the gig on The Voice? Joe: Me. How did you get the gag on The Voice? Nate: Funny you should ask. Joe: Oh, good. Nate: So back in, ho, ho, ho. Get comfortable people back. Somewhere around 2002. I always want to do like in the year 2000. Joe: Right. Nate: If anyone remembers that, I don't even remember that little Conan O'Brien bit. That has to do with Eddie Richter. So back somewhere around 2002, I was playing with the singer songwriter piano player named Billy Appealing. That was a little earlier named Vanessa Carlton. So 2002, 2002, 2003, somewhere in that neighborhood, maybe 2003. And for those of you who may not be familiar with Vanessa Carlton, she had a single called A Thousand Miles. It was a really big summertime single. So interrelates with Vanessa, and we're somewhere in the middle of somewhere and I get a call. Joe: See? But there you go again, you skipped over, how did you get that gig? Nate: Well, I actually didn't skip over Joe because I said because I said Nate's a jerk because because I said that many of my earlier auditions, of which Vanessa Carlton was one can't be very Swier, actually. Probably Joe: Ok. Nate: Did. I probably Joe: Ok. Nate: Admitted that. Yes, she. So OK, then I'll give you the quick I'll give you the quick. Overview of the various wire gate, so of the various of the gigs that I did or of the auditions that I did when I first moved the town, that I found myself in a room in some way, shape or form or fashion at the result of knowing or as a result of knowing various wire. The first one was Billy Myers. The next one, I think, was Tommy Hinrichsen, who is a guitar player, bass player, singer songwriter, rocker of all levels. He's currently playing guitar with Alice Cooper. Right. But it's time he had a deal on capital. Yes, capital is the only capital records. So Billy Myers, Tommy Henderson. Darren Hayes, who was a lead. I think he was the lead singer of Savage Garden. And so for a minute there, Darren Hayes had a solo project. Darren Hayes. And so I didn't audition that. I was fortunate to get through that. I was unable to do it because of a conflict with another very ask audition that I did, which was Vanessa Carlton. So Darren Hayes and Vanessa Carlton conflicted. So I found myself having to choose between the two or fortunate to have the, you know, good, good problem of choosing between the two. And and I elected to. Play with Vanessa Carlton and then also in there was there was a well, there is a he's a bad ass, a techno dance artist, ETM artist, if you will, called Brian Transito or Beatty is his name. So those those handful of auditions all came through the Barry Squire stream. So Joe: Perfect. Nate: Very smart, Joe: Now, I feel Nate: Very Joe: So Nate: Suave Joe: Much Nate: Stream. Joe: Better now. Nate: There you go. Barry Swier Stream led to Vanessa Carlton. So both now mentor Vanessa. Phone rings This might've been a Bery call as well, but it was Hey, Nate. There's a certain big artist who's auditioning and she is looking to put the band on retainer and the auditions are this day, she's heard a lot of players. They haven't said of the band yet. And we would like you to come to the audition and I won't say the artists. Name, but her initials are Alanis Morissette. So. Let's hope Joe: Oh, Nate: So. Joe: Good. Nate: So Joe: That Nate: I'm Joe: Was true, Nate Nate: So Joe: Martin Nate: I'm free. Joe: Form right Nate: Thank you. Joe: There Nate: Thank Joe: Was Nate: You. Thank Joe: Perfect. Nate: You. Thank you. Thank you. Joe: God, I'm so glad. Nate: So so I'm out with Vanessa and I get this call that Atlantis is auditioning. And I know that Vanessa's tour is winding down. And so I'm very excited. I'm like, oh, man, this could be a great transition. So in the middle of the Vanessa gate, I fly home. All of this, by the way, I'm still answering the question, how did you get to get on the voice? If you can't if you can believe it. So, so so it works out that the day she's auditioning it, it falls on like a day off that I've got with Vanessa. And so it's a day off with Vanessa. I don't remember where we are, but I raced to the airport in the morning. I fly home. I'm listening to Atlanta songs on the way home, the song songs if you're going to ask for a rhyme, charting out my little charts. And I think and I get there and I go to the audition and. And it was amazing. I played it. Yeah. Sounds great. You guys will rock it. And at the end of the audition they go, man, that was great. You didn't get to play. Oh, my heart broke. I was so sad. Right. So I did not get the gig. They said, thank you for joining us. You're you know, you did a good job. But we're going to you know, we have another guy. OK, I get back on a plane the next day, I fly back, I rejoin Venessa, which is a great gig. No disrespect to Buddhism. Joe: Anybody Nate: And so. Joe: Know where you went in that period of time? Nate: Sure, Joe: Was it Nate: Probably. Joe: That the van? Nate: Or you know what? Do you know what the truth is? I'll be honest with you. I don't even remember. I don't remember. I don't remember. I might have said maybe it would be not kosher to be like, hey, I'm going home to audition for a gig that's no bigger than this one. And so so maybe I wouldn't have said it. Maybe it would have added more a little bit more subtle approach. But nonetheless, I didn't get it anyway. So I arrived back and then I finish out of Inessa tour and I'm a little bit bummed that I missed out on that great opportunity because. Hashtag comments were sent. Joe: Yeah, Nate: All Joe: Yeah, Nate: Right. Joe: Yeah. Hell, yeah. Nate: Shoot. So if you called me today, I'd be like, I don't know, can I. Can I fit your voice schedule? Or is it here? I mean, she's amazing. Right, Joe: Yeah, absolutely. Nate: Though. So the Vanessa. Tour finishes and not too long after the Vanessa tour finishes, and I feel like this is I feel like this is the end of. Oh, for. I get a call from a friend and he says, hey, mate, Mark Burnett is putting together his TV show. It's called Rock Star. He needs a band. And so he is called upon however many in eight, ten, twelve days to put together bands to come in audition to potentially be the house band on this show. It's going to be like American Idol, but it's going to have like rock and rock songs. You know, it could be great. And so I go, okay. That man, of course, I would love to. And so the person who called me for that audition was a bass player named Derek Frank, who has a very, very long list of credits to his name. So Derek put together the band as the band leader, and we went and auditioned. So now we're in early 2005, because if memory serves the first round of auditions for Rock Star, we're in the first or second week of the year. That was like January 5th or something, right? Was the audition. We audition and again, multiple bands audition again. The whole process is going on and on and on. And eventually they wind up saying, OK, I get a call from Clive Lieberman, who is I'm still in my life at that time. I get a call from Clive Lieberman and he says, OK, we've narrowed it down. We have three drummers that we're looking at. And you're one of the three. And here's the next day, you know, can you be here on this day? At this time? OK, sure. Of course I can. So I go there. And now now we're in like late January because the process started like early January. Now we're moving into like mid late January. Joe: Wow. That's incredible. Nate: The man I was started. I'm just getting warmed up. So so I go there. And the other drummers are playing and the rotating Grumman's in and out in the way that. I mean, I've done several auditions and they all work a variety of ways. But generally, if none of the band is set, then some portion of the audition live audition is that drummer with that bass player, that bass player with that guitar player, that guitar player with that drummer that removes that bass player on that guitar player in there, especially in this sense, has a television show. They're analyzing it all. So so they're they're well above like, do these guys sound good? They're like, do I like that guy's dreadlocks? In my case, for example, I know that guy has a guitar that's like Dayglo pink. That's cool. Oh, I hate that guy's boots. Like, it's on that level because the TV show. Right. So at the end of the day, we're playing with vulnerably. Okay. I'm let's let's say I'm drummer number three. So we're playing, playing, playing, playing, playing. At some point they say, okay, drummer number one, you can go home. And then I look around and there's just like German number two and me bling, bling, bling, bling, bling. And at some point they say, OK, drummer number two. Thank you a lot. You can go home and then it's just me and I'm playing for like the rest of the day and well into the night. So finally they say, OK, we're finished for the night. Everybody can go home. Now, when they did that on Billy Myers, it was this is the band we're playing Vibe tomorrow. Let's get her done as opposed to on this, where they're like. All right. Joe: Go Nate: So Joe: Now, Nate: I Joe: Go home Nate: Could Joe: And worry. Now go home and Nate: Go Joe: Worry. Nate: Home. Now go home. Right. So I go up to Clyde. Clide Lieberman. Love them, love, love, love. I got to climb. I go say Hi, Clyde. As I look around, I don't see any other drummers. I said so. So can I. I said, so should I. Should I go home and, you know, have a celebratory drink? And Clyde's response was, well, you should definitely go home and have a drink, Joe: Yes. Oh, no. Nate: Right? It's so, Joe: Oh, no. Nate: So, so now we're at the end of January. The band that they arrived at. Sort of somewhere in February. They had this band. Right. And I was included among and within that band. And they had an M.D., a guitar player, a bass player and a multi instrumentalist. And so then that band did a gig for the. That was a CBS show. So we'd have done a gig for, like, those higher up CBS guys. Right. We would have had to have been approved by them. Then at some point, they kind of went like, well, what if we had this person on bass? So then that band did another gig for the CBS people. Then, well, what do we have this person on guitar? Then that band did another gig for the CBS people. Joe: Wow. Nate: Then I was like, wow, this isn't working out. Let's go back to the other band. OK, now then that band did. So. So there were there were there were hoops aplenty to jump through. But in the end of all the jumping through hoops and I remember this date, I don't know why it's burned in my head. I could have it wrong. But I remember this date. I feel like May. I feel like it was May 19th. We were all sat in a room with the executive producer of that show, Rock Star. His name is David Goffin and that band. Was myself on drums. Sasha could face off on base. Half Amaria on guitar, Jim O'Gorman on guitar and multi instrumentalist and musical director. Paul Markovich. So that was the first time Paul, Sasha and myself worked together as a rhythm section. Now, Sasha was my bass player on Vanessa Carlton. And Paul had also worked with Sasha in other situations. But this is the first time at that that this was the genesis of that rhythm section. So. From Rock Star, that rhythm section went on to do multiple sessions in town. Two seasons of Rock Star. That band went on to do a tour with Paul Stanley. Ultimately, that rhythm section wound up doing the Cher Caesars Palace run. So now I flashed all the way forward from 2000 and. Five. Right. By the way. So the first audition, the first part of that audition was in early January. And the band wasn't solidified until Joe: May 19th. Nate: The end of May. Well, May 19th was when they said, if you want to do it. Joe: Got it. Nate: And then ultimately, by the time contract or signed. Yeah, it was the end of May. It was the end of May. Beginning of June. Somewhere in there. Joe: So all of this time, you're not making any money. Nate: No, the auditions that we did and the rehearsals that we did were paid Joe: Ok. Nate: Because because at the end of the day, you are a professional musician. So even whether whether you have the gig or not, it is still your time, you know. And Joe: Ok. Nate: It is, you know, I mean, we were we weren't on some sort of, you know, incredible retainer or anything. But at the same time, the powers that be know that to expect you to dedicate the time to learning these songs and doing these rehearsals and showing up and, you know, wearing halfway presentable clothes and showing up with good gear and playing gigging town and good, that's not something that people would typically want to do for free. That's something that that you know, that that's what we do. And so Joe: Right. Nate: They wouldn't have expected us to do that for free. Joe: So any point during this interview process from early January to this may date where it finally gets solidified? Did any other tour opportunities come up that almost tore you away to go and say, OK, this great thing has just come in? And if I get this, I'm out here, I'm done with these auditions. I'm going. Nate: So, Joe, when you called me. And you were like, hey, man, can you come in my pocket hasn't got to me and I was like, Sure, sure. And then you were just like, Yeah, we'll talk about your life story. Joe: All. Nate: And I was like Joe: Right. Nate: I was kind of like, oh, there's gonna be like everything I've always been asked before and about we all the same stuff. I hope Joe comes with a new question. I hope so. That's the first time anyone has ever asked me that question. Joe: Seriously? Nate: And yes, that's the first time I've ever been asked that question. And that is an interesting question. And it is, is it is very insightful. Joe: So we'll think I'm Nate: So Joe: Looking. Nate: Absolutely. Joe: I'm looking through all of this because I live through you, you know that, right? So I am all of these questions are like, man, if I was in the middle of all this and all of a sudden, you know, share, I get the call from Barry saying Cher's auditioning. So anyhow, that that's why it was Nate: Well, Joe: Important. Nate: And like I said, it's a good question and it's a very astute question. And the answer is yes. I mean, because it was from early part of the year to like May, April, you know, in that in that neighborhood. Joe: And they're building Nate: So, Joe: Up Nate: Yeah, Joe: Their tour Nate: That's Joe: Vans. Nate: When things are Joe: Right. Nate: Happening. Joe: Right. Nate: Right. That's why things are happening. I can't remember specific things that I would have, you know, turned down or that I would have not been available for. But I will say that even in that context of it not being solidified. I felt like it was definitely worth keeping my. Carts hooked to that ox because it was a TV show. And all the time that I was touring, I was definitely like, you know, like touring is great. Touring is a blast. I love it. I may wind up doing it again at some point. That'll be amazing. We'll be fine. But there's also an extent to where it's like it might also be nice to be able to make a living, staying in town and seeing your family every day and sleeping in your own bed, driving your car and go into your favorite restaurants and not dealing with the fact that you showed up at, you know, 10 and the rooms won't be ready until two. So you're sleeping on a couch in the hotel lobby. You know, that's that's also an element of truth. So. So, yes. So things came in. Kate came and went, and I definitely decided to stay the course and, you know, follow that that that path towards what I thought would be a TV show which wound up being a TV show. And where was I? Sorry, Bella. Joe: So, no, it's OK. So Rockstar, you guys did Nate: Right. Joe: A bunch Nate: So Joe: Of Nate: That Joe: Shows. Nate: Was the first time I played Joe: Yes. Nate: It, right? Right, exactly. Exactly. Joe: You're the new Nate: So. Joe: Heart rhythm section in town, right? Nate: Where are the new rhythm section and how. Joe: Ok. Nate: Oh, we were that time. But but yeah, you know. And so so the whole the only the only point that I was really trying to make in this very, very, very, very long winded, you know, spool here is. The. The fact that I'm able to be on The Voice now is a direct result of the relationship that I started with Paul Markovich back in 2005 on Rock Star. So what is this, 2020? Joe: Yes. Nate: Right. So. This whole gig started coming about. A decade and a half ago. And so I. And so I say all that, I say that to even spend it further back to talk about what I was saying earlier about relationships, which is that you have no idea, you know, the the guy that you do a gig with one time for one hundred bucks at a club somewhere. Might be the guy who calls you for the audition that completely changes the course of your career. Joe: All right. Nate: So, you know, Joe: So Nate: I mean, and. Joe: So Rockstar was till when? Nate: Rockstar, unfortunately, only lasted two seasons, Rockstar was 2005, 2006 on CBS. The first season it was Rockstar in excess and the feature band was in excess. And we were going through the process to find a lead singer to replace Michael Hutchence. And then the subsequent season was called Rock Star Supernova. And they had chosen Tommy Lee. Oh, this is embarrassing. Tommy Lee. Jason is dead. And a guitar player. Joe: Tell us of. Nate: But they are putting together the supergroup. They're putting the supergroup. And and so they were basically auditioning for a singer to front this supergroup. And that was what that season was about. And so then, yeah, like I said, that's easy. It ended. And then Paul Stanley called like Vee Paul Stanley. Joe: Yeah. Nate: Like the walking, breathing, living. Iconic legend Joe: Yes. Nate: Paul Stanley calls and says, Hey, guys, I'm going to go out and support my solo record. You want to play with me and I will. Duh. Joe: Right. Nate: You know, I mean, Paul is amazing. Paul, Paul, Paul is Paul and Cher. Paul, Stanley and Cher share. Shares is a share on all adult donor list, but possibly in share. Both have this. They are at once incredibly. Sort of present and know exactly who they are. And the fact that they are literally. Iconic legends. But at the same time, able to make fun of themselves, able to laugh. Selves able to be down to earth, able to be. Just so what's the word I'm looking for, relatable. Joe: Authentic. Yeah, Nate: Authentic, relatable Joe: Yeah, Nate: In a crazy Joe: Yeah. Nate: Way. You know what I mean? Have figured. I didn't pause daily. I said to you, man, I was in this band, you know, however long ago or whatever you guys met and she was older than that. Oh, okay. Go. I love it. Was the early days as to whether I was the rock band. It's the story. Joe: Peter. Nate: Sorry. You know, because I was such a funny time. So it's the band from Rockstar Impulse Daily. And I hit the pause daily as it meant the band from Rockstar and Paulist Aliens is the best band ever played with us. Here it goes. Yeah. Yeah. I'm sure this is the best band you've ever played with. Joe: Nice. Oh, my guys, Nate: No, Joe: It's Nate: It was Joe: Hours Nate: It was Joe: Of. Nate: So great. He was so great. It's like the cool thing, too, is we did it. We did a show a while back. And one of the songs we played in season finale after the season finale is over and the show's over. I hopped my car to drive home and drink. And I have a text from Paul Stanley telling me, oh, my God, man, great job on, you know, such and such a song tonight. Joe: That's so cool, man. Nate: It's amazing. Joe: It's so Nate: You know, Joe: Cool. Nate: He is he is genuinely one of those guys who. I don't know. He's just he's he he's he's able to balance being an icon and still being sort of down to earth and, Joe: That's really Nate: You know, Joe: Cool. Nate: Relatable and. Yeah. Joe: So what year is this that you go out with him right after Rockstar ends? Nate: Well, Roxette would have been a five oh oh oh five was one season. 06 was another season. And so I feel like we did. I mean, it would have been 06. It would've been 06. Maybe in two oh seven. But maybe just because because Rock Star was a summer show, so we wider than rock star and been down at the end of the summer. And then we might respect, like the fall slash winter with Paul Stanley Joe: Ok. Nate: And then been done because because the the second leg of the Paul Stanley tour was Australia. And so Australia, if you don't know or if anyone doesn't know. Is backwards to us. So Australia winter is our summer. So it's 100 degrees in the winter. So I feel like it was that. I feel like it was like the fall here. I feel like it was 2006 rehearsals. Maybe in the fall tour here in the fall. And then I feel like that tour would have gone into like maybe. Like October, November in in Australia, Joe: Ok. Nate: Something of that nature. Joe: And at Nate: Yeah. Joe: This point, is this the biggest tour that you've done up to date to Nate: With Joe: That Nate: Paul. Joe: Yet? Nate: He is definitely the most iconic artist that I would have worked with up Joe: Up Nate: To that point, Joe: To that Nate: You know? Joe: Point. OK. Nate: Well, OK. Well. No, because I don't mean. I tried not to like. Joe: You've done so many great things, we can't leave anything out. Nate: No, no, I'm just. I'm OK. What exactly Joe: That's why Nate: Is Joe: I'm Nate: Going Joe: Prodding Nate: On right now? Joe: You for all of this stuff. This Nate: No, Joe: Is my job. Nate: I mean, man, I'm just fortunate. I'm fortunate that I've managed to eke out a living doing this thing. And I'm fortunate that, like, people calling me to do what I do, I feel like. Joe: And you're about the most humble person I've ever met in my life. That's the reason. Nate: That's nice. That's nice of you to say. Thank Joe: It's Nate: You. Joe: True. Nate: But it's Joe: It's. Nate: True. I know. But you know what? It is so so look. So when I was in high school. I wasn't walking around like, yeah. One day I'm gonna play a post alien, Chaka Khan, and, you know, remember me on TV? I didn't think that. I thought like Joe: That was like your Richard Pryor. Nate: I thought. Joe: Now it's like you're selling Richard Pryor. That Nate: I'm so not going to even try to do Richard Pryor. Joe: Was Nate: But Joe: Great. Nate: But Joe: Oh, Nate: But Joe: Good. Nate: I mean, I guess. But bye bye. But my point is that, like, my point is every day I am of two people. I am the person who gets up and goes like, OK, today it's time to get up and learn the Peter Frampton song that we're playing on the show today. Like what? Like the first. Right. Right, so so, so part of me goes. OK, let's learn. Peter Frampton on. That's the that's the current me. But the high school me is still in there, and one of the first records I ever owned was a Peter Frampton record, right? Not Frampton comes alive, but it's like one before that. The single was a song called I Can't Stand It No More. Which I'm not even going to try to sing. But it's a really cool tune. But like so the part of me gets up and goes, OK, let's go to Linda Peter Frampton song play today. But then inside that is still like the little kid going like, I can't believe I'm playing with this guy. That is one of the dudes that I learned to play drums by jamming along to my drum set Joe: Yeah, Nate: To the Joe: It's Nate: To Joe: Crazy. Nate: The LP. I'm a record player, so I say all that just to say, like in terms of being humble. It's not like I'm trying to be humble. It's just that I still the meet the young me still steps back and looks at what I'm fortunate to do and goes, Oh my God. Dude, you're you're a lucky friggin fortunate mofo to get to do what you're doing. So and then again, circling back to where we were, which was you said up to that point, Paul Stanley. And the reason why I paused. I had not played with Cher at that point, but I feel like I had played with Natalie Cole at that point. Joe: Ah, Nate: Yeah, so. Joe: So that's Nate: Right. Joe: Here. Nate: So so genre differences, obviously, and volume of people who know, obviously, you know, potentially different. Joe: Yes. Nate: But I mean, in terms of iconic, Joe: Yes. Nate: I mean, they're both they're both right there. I remember going out to dinners. Natalie would have these dinners. We were on tour in Japan at one point and she said, we know want everybody come down to dinner at the restaurant, at the hotel or whatever, and we're there. And she would say things like, you know what? When Daddy said that? And I'm like. Joe: Oh, my gosh. Your mind explodes. Nate: My mind explodes. Joe: That is so Nate: One Joe: Cool. Nate: Time Daddy said, and it was like, Wow. Joe: Yeah. Nate: So yeah, man. So I mean so so I can't remember the exact timeline. But up to that point. Yes, it would have been Natalie, Paul Stanley. I had a short I had a short run with Chaka Khan Joe: Ok. Nate: Up to that point. So she's you know, she's you know, I mean, Chaka Joe: Yeah. Nate: Khan. Right. Joe: Hey. Nate: I mean it again, like I said, even as I say this, that I have a hard time saying these things because I don't come across like I played with her. It's like to me, I literally look back and I like I play with a person like they hired Joe: So Nate: Me. They're bad. Joe: Call Soquel. Nate: So now I it's. Yeah, it's man. I'm so fortunate. I'm so fortunate. Joe: So where are we in the timeline now, because. Nate: Well, at this point, we're up to about where we're up to Paul Stanley. So impossibly ends, Joe: Yeah. And this again, Nate: Stanley Joe: What Nate: Ends. Joe: Year is this? Remind me. 2009, Nate: Well, Joe: You Nate: We're Joe: Said. Nate: All well, we're we're pretty much almost current at this point because when Paul Stanley ends. That's got to be like, let's see, oh, five or six or seven. That's got to be like in the O2 eight ish 07, Joe: Ok. Nate: Seven or eight ish ballpark. Joe: Yes. OK. Nate: And then I did a TV show. I was fortunate to do a couple of TV shows, and one of them was called the Bonnie Hunt Show, which was a daytime talk show on NBC. And circling way back to your way earlier question about in terms of who was at early with me, who that I know still. So Churchill era was the piano player and the band on the body honcho. And and it is and it is through Chechu Elora that I got the call to audition for the band or the Bonnie Joe: Wow. Nate: Hunt show right Joe: How many years later Nate: Later than Berkeley. Joe: Here? It's like. Nate: I mean, it's a little Berkeley, I graduated ninety four, the call for Bonnie Joe: It's crazy. Nate: Hunt to audition comes 94, 2004 to about a decade and a half. Joe: It's crazy, right? This is exactly Nate: It's crazy, Joe: What you were talking about. Nate: But it's relationships, Joe: Yeah, Nate: It's relationships, Joe: Yeah. Nate: You know. So, yeah. So then. So Bonnie Hunt. And then that ran for a while and then Bonnie Hunt for a stretch, ran concurrent with Cher. So I was playing with Bonnie. And share at the same time, and I can't actually remember which one came online first, but what I was basically doing was I was playing in Vegas with Cher and then on my days off from Cher, I was coming home to Bonnie here in L.A. and I was basically driving back and forth and doing sort Joe: Wow. Nate: Of double duty. Yeah, it was it was a little bit. It was a little taxing because Joe: Oh, my God. Nate: I. Joe: So was Cher a Barry Squire gig? Nate: Cher actually came through my relationship with Paul Markovitch dating back to 2005, Joe: Ok. Nate: So meeting him in 05, doing the show with all five of six rock star Paul Stanley tour sessions in town. Other things in town. And then Cher would have come about. I mean, it feels like. Oh, nine ish. But don't quote me on that. Oh nine oh nine. Give or take six months to a year. Joe: Ok. And the share gig was at a walk on for you because of Paul. Or you still had to audition. Nate: Share. That's what he called a walk on. Joe: Guy, Nate: It makes Joe: I Nate: It sound so Joe: Don't Nate: So Joe: Know Nate: It Joe: What Nate: Makes us so casual, like, Joe: Would Nate: Hey, Joe: Have Nate: Man, Joe: Come Nate: Come on over Joe: Up. Nate: And play with us and share. Joe: I don't even Nate: Hey. Joe: Know where that term comes from. Walk on. Was Nate: Oh, Joe: It? Nate: Well, we'll Joe: Isn't Nate: Walk Joe: That like Nate: On Joe: A Nate: Is Joe: Football Nate: Like. Joe: Thing? Like if you don't have to. You don't have to go through the audition. Nate: No, Joe: Are Nate: I Joe: The. Nate: Think it's. No, I think it's kind of the opposite. I think it's a college. I think it's a college athletics term. But it's not a good thing. I know you're using it as a good term, but I think that in college athletics, you have your your your top tier guys who are on scholarship. So like, for example, on a college basketball team, like a Division One team, I think there's like twelve kids, I think. And I think that, like, 10 of them are on scholarship, but there's like auditions, auditions, music nerd tryouts Joe: Tryout. Nate: To fill like those last spots. Joe: Hey, Nate: And Joe: I Nate: I think Joe: Said auditions, Nate: Those last Joe: Too. Nate: Spots. Joe: I couldn't think of the word. Nate: Right. I think those last spots are walk ons like, OK. We've got art, we've got our eight or whatever it is, our 10, we've got our we've got our blue chippers over here. We've got to fill out the team, open tryouts, and then there's like 100 kids. And of that one hundred kids, you pick like four or five, whatever it is to fill out your team. That's a walk on. So like a walk on. Oftentimes never even gets on the floor like in in that context. But Joe: So Nate: I understand Joe: I Nate: What you're Joe: Totally Nate: Saying. Joe: Use Nate: No, Joe: That. Nate: You did. But no, but I understand. I totally understand what you meant. I told you so. But and to answer your question, yes. I did not audition. Mark was playing with Cher. And I believe that Pink had dates that conflicted. And so I believe that he made the decision to go and fulfill his obligation with Pink, which vacated the Cher position, which gave Paul the leeway to basically call me. And then I came in and I finished out the whole run with Cher at Caesar's Palace in Vegas. Joe: Got it. And she Nate: So Joe: Was Nate: Then. Joe: Amazing. Amazing person, everything you actually got to hang with her a little bit. Nate: She's Joe: A lot. Nate: Awesome. She's awesome. She she is one of the people like and again, I never take any of this for granted. I never think any of this is assumed. None of it. But like those kind of stories that you hear about artists who are like, you know what, I'm just gonna buy out the whole theater for Tuesday night. So my whole band and crew and dancers and everyone can go and watch Boogie Nights. You know, I mean, like or hey, I'm just gonna, like, buy out all of the pole position, indoor, you know, go kart race track for a night. So my whole band and crew could just go and do that. So, you know, she really she did a thing once where Cher is the coolest. Like, shares the coolest. And the first person to make fun of Cher is Cher. Like, she's so, you know, like self-effacing. But at the same time knows that she's an icon. And that's an amazing thing. It's an amazing balance. But we did a thing one night where we played. Bingo. Right. Hey, guys, I want everybody to come down to the theater where we're going to play bingo. OK, so here we sit playing bingo. And the prizes, if you get bingo, is like an Apple iPad. OK. So this person wins, OK? He got B eleven I 17 in bingo. Here's my pad. Thank Joe: Nice. Nate: You. Good bye. OK. Here's your iPad. OK. It's like. It's like. It's like Oprah. You got a car. Joe: Right. Nate: You've got a car. You've got a car. Right. So. So. So the night is that we played. I don't know. There's there's 200 people on the crew. And we played 30 rounds of bingo. So 30 people have walked out with iPods. OK, well, it's late. It's you know, it's Vegas. So. So, so Vegas late. So it's, you know, hetero. 3:00 in the morning. OK, everybody. It's all good. Great job. Last round works on me. OK. Goodnight. Right. Bye. OK. Show up the next day. Do you know whatever it is, soundcheck? Oh, date. He's right that way. What you mean? I didn't win. No, no. Sure. Have for everybody. Joe: Nice. Nate: You know, I mean, like that kind Joe: Yeah, Nate: Of thing. Joe: Yeah, yeah, Nate: He get out Joe: That's cool. Nate: So. So. So, yeah, I know she was she was one of the. Coolest, most relaxed, she Ampol. I mean, I don't. I got to say, it's it's ironic or not that two of the most well-known, iconic, well respected artists that I've ever worked with are also two of the most down to earth. Relaxed. Nothing to prove. Cher has nothing to prove. Paul Stanley has nothing to prove. There's no attitude. There's no weirdness. Like. Joe: It's really cool. Nate: It's really cool. Joe: Yeah. Nate: It's really cool. And I've just been fortunate that. I. I have historically never shows in. Gigs, opportunities, situations. Politically, and here's what I mean. I've never chosen a gig because the artist was the biggest artist or because the guys in the band I thought were the coolest guys who would call me for gigs one day. I've always been the guy who. If you call me for a gig, you call me for a game. OK, Joe. Hey, Nate. Put together a band for this game of going on. I'm never gonna be like, let me call the four guys who I think are most likely to call me for a big gig. Let me call the four guys who are my boys, who I think could really a user gig or B are going to play this the best. I'm never. So that might wind up being four guys you've never heard of. Joe: Right. Nate: But they'll kill it. Joe: Sure. Nate: And they're my buddies and. And it'll be a great game. So I guess my point is I've always done that and I've never chosen gigs. By the way. Based on. Political or financial gain? So numerous times. I've had a. That might be more beneficial politically or financially, frankly. But maybe I hate the music or I've got gig B. Where I love the music and I love the dudes, but it pays half what gig pays on gig based. And the reason I've always done that is because I've always hoped that in the end, wherever I land, I'm gonna be playing great music with great musicians in a cool situation with guys that I really love being around. And I am so fortunate that that's the case. The guys in the band on the boys are my brothers. Those are my guys. Joe: Right. It could Nate: You Joe: Prove Nate: Know. Joe: To be a really long tour if you're on a gig where it pays a lot of money. But the music sucks and Nate: Or you Joe: You don't Nate: Don't Joe: Like Nate: Like Joe: The Nate: The Joe: People. Nate: People. Yeah, or you don't like the people you're playing with. And and yeah. And. Yeah, I like I said, I've just I've just been very I've been very fortunate, you know? And again, it's like the guys on the voice are my family and not even just the guys on the voice. The guys are the boys in the band. The girls on the voice in the band. The whole voice, music, family. People sometimes say, how do you guys get along so well? And I'll quote one of our keyboard techs slash. Brainiac Patrick, who knows the answers to all the questions. He just does he's like DOE technology. But someone once asked, how do you guys get along so well? And Patrick said, or no, they said, why do you guys go along so well? No. Was it. Hold on. Let me go straight. Yeah, I was how do you guys get along so well? And Patrick said it's because we have to. But we have to in other words, what we do and the product that we create and the amount of time that we spend around each other and working with each other. It could only exist if we had the kind of family relationship that we did. We have to if it if it's not that it can't get done, it can't Joe: Right. Nate: Happen. Joe: Right. Nate: You know, Joe: Yes. Nate: So I'm rambling, but that's kind Joe: No, no, Nate: Of where Joe: No. Nate: That's kind of that's that's the whole story. So, so, so an answer. Joe: So, again, in the timeline, year two thousand nine. Nate: Yeah. That's when the voice starts 2010, somewhere in that ballpark. Yeah. Joe: When the voice was, I guess I might be getting it mixed up with the rock star. The Voice wasn't a lengthy audition, right? It was you already because of Paul and everything. I don't remember. Nate: Well, I mean, the voice, so the voice came about. The voice was not an audition. The process that led to me being on The Voice. Started. A decade prior. Over a decade prior, you know, so. So, no, it wasn't an audition, but it was a relationship that built over the over the preceding however many years that was from. Well, I said it decades. So I guess I guess not a decade. But. The voice would have been 2009 10 and I would have met Paul is more than five. So about a half a decade. So, yeah, so would have been a five year, six year relationship prior that led to the voice ultimately Joe: That's Nate: For Joe: Amazing. Nate: Me anyway. Joe: Right. Nate: Yeah. Joe: And it's and it's going strong and you guys sound better than ever. And it's just amazing. And just to be on the set. It was so cool. I think the funny and I tell people the story all the time. The fact that I was able to have, you know, some ears to listen to Nate: Yes. Joe: The band, Nate: Oh, God. Joe: The banter Nate: Oh. Joe: On the bandstand. Nate: Woo! Oh, don't you ever put that out anywhere Joe: Oh, okay. Nate: Where the worst are the worst. Joe: Okay. Nate: All we do is back on each other all day. Joe: Oh, my gosh. It is amazing. So what else? I want to make sure we didn't miss anything. And I want to also give you a moment to plug anything that you're doing. I don't know if you still you still have your band outside of The Voice. Nate: Well, I'm involved in a side project with my buddy Sean Halley, Sean Halley and I, and sadly now do you always do these v a zoom? Joe: So far, because I just started it when all of this happened. Nate: Right. Joe: So. Nate: And all of this for your listeners who may see this down the road, years, three years, four years is that we are in the midst of a zombie apocalypse. Joe: Correct. Nate: There are cars being turned over. Joe: Better known as Cauvin Nate: Yes, Joe: 19. Nate: Yes. Yes. That's Joe: Yes. Nate: It's it's it's crazy. So, yeah, I mean, all of this is happening amidst this time when, you know, gigs are getting canceled and all of this. And actually, I had a gig with my side project, which is a band called Fraud Profits, which is myself and my dear, dear friend Sean Halley, also a genius, by the way. And we had this band for our profits, which was filled out by bass player Ben White. And Ed Roth was gonna be playing keys with us. And we had a gig booked on April 10th that we were all excited to do it. And so it's not happening. But in terms of things that I'm doing outside the voice, that is one of the primary things. So you can if you're interested, you can look up Frauke profits F are eight. You d p r o p h e t s dot com. And you can also find us on Instagram. You can also find us on Facebook. And so we will continue to keep you updated on what we're up to in the albums available where all albums are available. It's called Pop Ptosis and it's really rad. Yeah, Joe: Awesome. Nate: Yeah, Joe: All Nate: Man, Joe: Right, cool. Nate: It's. Joe: And then what about lessons? What are you doing Nate: I don't know, I guess trying to study with you at some point when you have some have Joe: Ok. Nate: Some availability Joe: Well, Nate: And you can you Joe: Yeah, Nate: Can fit me Joe: I'm Nate: In. Joe: Pretty tied Nate: Ok. Joe: Up Nate: We'll Joe: Right Nate: Get back Joe: Now. Nate: To me. Get back to me. You can when you can fit me in your schedule. Now, Joe: Oh, Nate: So. Joe: Good. No, sir. So how can people how can drummers that want to go to the next level take lessons from you? How I know that. Nate: Right. Joe: I guess if they're in L.A. and when things get back to whatever air quotes normal, if that happens, they could come there to your studio and Nate: Right. Joe: Do it. Nate: Right. But in Joe: You Nate: The meantime, Joe: Doing? Nate: I Joe: Yeah. Nate: Will. I am making myself available for online lessons. And it's a thing that thanks to this. I think I mentioned to you earlier, I got my whole rig up and running. So I'm talking into like an actual microphone as opposed to my my earbuds and I have on headphones as opposed to my earbuds, because the headphones, the microphone are all running through my studio gear, which I'm making like gestures at, but no one can see. But I am getting the rig here setup so that I can do online lessons. I have done some of the past and I'm thinking that with my new audio going on. Thanks to the motivation of getting with you and chatting tonight. I have it a little bit more under control. So sure, if you want to man if you want get together online for like a lesson or an exchange of knowledge or any of that stuff, I'm so easy to find. I'm on Instagram or Insta, as I call it, when I want to make my wife really Joe: It's Nate: Angry. She's like Joe: Nice. Nate: No one calls it. It's the I call it ads that no one calls it. It's. Oh. Joe: Oh, good. Nate: No, Joe: So Nate: It's very. Joe: What's your what's your handle on Instagram? Nate: Oh, no. Joe: Oh, man, I'll I'll find Nate: Shut up, Joe: It and put it Nate: Shut Joe: In the show Nate: Up. Joe: Notes. Nate: Wait, wait, wait. No, I think it's just. I think it's in in as inmate eight, the number eight D. Are you Amzi in eight D. Are you M z. I think that's me on Instagram. It's also my license plate. Oh, hey, buddy, sorry. So so the band was having a rehearsal at center staging. And my license plate on my SUV says in eight D-R, UMC meat drums. And there were some other band there and I can't remember who the artist was. But like the drummer and the guitar player of that band came over to our rehearsal. I was hanging out. And you know how it is. Musicians know, what is this? The voice. Oh, what are you doing? I'm doing this gig. And so the drummer talks to me and says, Oh, you know, you're the drummer on The Voice. What's your name? Nate anymore. Oh, Nate. Nate. Oh, is that your car in the parking lot? This is Nate drums on the license plate. I was like, yeah. And like, literally, I swear to God, that's because. I could be an atriums like like I felt like I needed to have a gig Joe: Right. Nate: Of a stature that would allow me to Joe: The Nate: Have the mic. Joe: Name Nate: And Joe: On Nate: They Joe: Your Nate: Trust. Joe: License plate. Perfect. Nate: Oh, yes. I was like, oh, you're so young, like young, you Joe: Oh, Nate: Know? Joe: Good. Nate: But he was funny. He was funny. All right. You could be aid drops was like, thanks. Joe: That's so Nate: Next year, Joe: Funny. It's awesome. Nate: Let me just give like a.. Joe: Yeah. Nate: Ok. Joe: Oh, God. Nate: David, he was girl. Of course. And of course, I looked him up and he's like, you know, what are these killing young drummers? There's so many bands. There's so many of those incredible guys Joe: Yeah, Nate: Just playing all that stuff. Joe: Well, cool. Nate: And I go, boom, boom, boom bap. Joe: Yeah, well, no, you don't, but you can say that if you want. You do a lot more Nate: It's Joe: Than that. Nate: True. Joe: So how about Nate: Well. Joe: Facebook? Do you know where they find you on Facebook? Nate: Yeah, sure, Facebook dot com slash Nate Morton drums. Joe: Perfect. So we did Instagram, Facebook. You have a website. Nate: I don't have an actual Web site. The closest thing I have is probably the for profit scam Joe: Ok, cool. Nate: Site. Joe: Ok. Nate: And what else we got? Joe: I assume Nate: Facebook. Joe: You don't hang out on Twitter or do you? Nate: You know what? So here's the thing. And I'm just being honest right now, it is being real. Somewhere along the line, I intentionally or unintentionally linked my Instagram to my Twitter. So it seems like whatever I put on Instagram winds up on Twitter. Or maybe it's my Facebook. But no, I'm not really active on Twitter. So if you actually want to catch up with me, find me on Facebook and I'm easy and like I'm not always the fastest to get back, but I get back to people. So if you find me on Facebook, dot com slash Nate Morton drums and you follow me there, you send me a message, whatever, whatever. I'm going to find it eventually. I'm gonna get back to you because it bugs me. My OCD would be bother. I can't look at a message and like, just delete it. Like, I look at it and I go back to that. So even so, if it's a it's over a day or a week or a month. I do my very best to get back. Joe: I'm sure. Nate: And and and you can always go, like super old school and just email me at an eight D argue Amzi at EarthLink thought that. Joe: Cool. And then really important is your YouTube page. Nate: Oh, I asked ask you to recite Joe: No. Nate: It. Joe: I'll put it in the show notes. But do you have more? Do you have your name? One and then. Is it the nake? Nate: No, no, it's just one. Joe: So it's the one Nate: It's Joe: With Nate: Just Joe: The Nate: One. Joe: Nait can. Like all the stuff. The Nate: Yeah, Joe: Voice videos. Nate: Yeah, it's all Joe: Right. Nate: On the same. That's all Joe: Ok, Nate: The same. Joe: Cool. Nate: Yes, that's all the same channel and it's YouTube dot com slash. See, like the letter C slash. Nate Morton drums, Joe: Perfect. Nate: Youtube dotcom Joe: See, Nate: Slash Joe: Nate Martin jumps. Nate: C slash O C anymore and drums. Oh, wow. Joe: There you go. Nate: I kind of just got that. Again, I swear. Joe: Oh. I think I should actually put some, like, cool Jeffs Nate: Yes, Joe: On the Nate: Yes, Joe: Video like that, lower Nate: Yes. Joe: Your head, just explode like the top flies off. Nate: I think Joe: All right. Endorsement's. Nate: If. You're awesome, Joe. Joe: Say always thinking. Nate: That's my endorsement. That's my words. Joe: No, no, Nate: That's my judgment. Joe: No. Nate: You said endorsements, Joe, your incredible. Joe: Yeah, well, you're amazing. But that's not Nate: What Joe: What you know. Nate: Does that mean? OK. So I am very, very fortunate to be affiliated with some really awesome companies. I'm afraid to say them all because like. I'm afraid to forget one and then Joe: Oh, I know. OK, Nate: So, so, so, so it's OK to put it in the Joe: I put in Nate: In Joe: The show. Nate: The text. Joe: Yeah. Is there anything else that I missed that you wanted to talk about? You know, I don't want to leave anything out. Nate: You know what? That's that's that's interesting, you should ask. And I will just I will just say this. I have it's going to be really weird. I'm going to go a little a little go a little left, Joe. Joe: That's Nate: And I Joe: Right. Nate: Know if you're expecting this Joe: That's Nate: Or not. Joe: Ok. Nate: I have six kids. I have a wife. Her name is Nicole, and outside of all of this, the show stuff and the gigs and this audition and that audition and this tour and that artist in that venue and that TV show and all of those things are amazing. I have to say that. I find my motivation and I find myself. Looking back on what is most important and all of those things are great. In the sense that. They allow me to do the things that I want to do with my family. Does that make sense? Joe: Absolutely. Nate: Know, I don't mean to be fruity or anything. It's just it's like I spend I spend a little bit of time getting to do things like this, like chatting to you. And I talk about drumhead to talk about music on the show. And I just never want to lose sight of the fact that within that world. I take a lot of pride and I put a lot of import on being able to spend time with my kids and my family as well. And one of the biggest words in our industry or in my life. I'll speak very small scale. One of the biggest words in my life is balance. And so while it may look from the outside, like the balance is completely shifted to all of that, there's also the other side, which is that you've also got allow yourself time to like spend time with your gnarly four year old to drive you crazy because she's insane or you're a two year old who might fall off the trampoline if you don't zip the thing closed. Or my 13 year old who has a tennis lesson or who can't play tennis right now. So I take him to Home Depot so he can hit on the on the wall or my 17 year old who I drag into the lounge room to play a game of chess with me or my 19 year old who is away at college while he's home. Now, who I communicate with and go, how's things going in your pursuits? You know. Or my. I left on my eight year old. Who? Who is it? Eight year old teenager. She's eight, but she's already a teenager. Isabelle, could that have a hug? Okay. Joe: Fine. Nate: You know, so. So it's like I don't mean to get too cheesy, but, you know, a long time ago, a great and dear friend of mine, Tony de Augustine, said the hardest thing about creating a career as a professional musician is finding a balance. And I said, a balance between what? And he said a balance between everything. And at the time, I was in my early 20s and I was like, what? What does that mean? And the older I get and every day, every week, month, year that goes by, I really do get it. It's a balance between. Gigs that you love. Gigs that pay the bills. Being gone on tour, making money and supporting your family. Seeing your family. Working hard and, you know, doing whatsoever versus having to work, but making yourself spend time doing things that are important otherwise. So again, I don't mean to get too cosmic with all of this, but yeah, I just want to make mention of that. I just wanted to make mention the fact that. Again. Certainly. Certainly way back again to Sharon, what's her name? Who said you don't sound very well rounded? I said I'm focused. Well, now I've adapted that focus. And that focus is, you know, to fill the time, music and and creativity and doing that side of things. But it's also in focus on Family and spending time with the wife and the kids. All those people who put up with me, Joe: Yeah. Nate: You know, all those little people who call me dad, I'm like, what? Joe: Yeah. Yeah. You have such a great Nate: And Joe: Family. Nate: My wife and my wife and the wife who puts up with me, the wife. Joe: Yes. Nate: I couldn't. I couldn't I couldn't be in my studio working 10 hours a day without her. Joe: No. Nate: I couldn't jump in my car and drive in the universal and work, you know, 80 hours a week without her. Joe: Go Nate: Right. Joe: Get. Nate: So. So those people are important and those people create the balance that that that makes my life really fucking cool. Joe: You deserve, brother. It's. I am honored to call you a friend. I am so glad we met. I don't even know how it happened. I, I know that we were both at one of those drum get togethers. It was a remote village in something. Nate: Yes, sure, probably, yeah. Joe: And I saw you as I was leaving and I handed you a card. And I had this funny slogan on the back of the card. And I was like a block and a half away already. And you're like, Hey dude, I love your card. Nate: It's Joe: It was really funny Nate: Like Joe: Like Nate: Me Joe: That. Nate: That Joe: Yeah. Nate: Sounds Joe: And Nate: Like me. Joe: Then it just it went from there and all the other stuff. So I appreciate you so much and I can't wait to Nate: I Joe: See Nate: Appreciate Joe: You in Nate: You. Joe: Person Nate: I appreciate Joe: Again. Nate: It. Joe: Please give. Nate: Hopefully soon. Joe: Yeah, I know. Please give my love to your family. Nate: We'll Joe: And Nate: Do, buddy, and you Joe: Yeah I will. Nate: And you. Joe: I will. And I really appreciate your time. And this is awesome. And thanks so much. Nate: Joe, absolutely my pleasure. And thank you for having me on. Joe: All right, brother, I appreciate it. You take care.
One year ago we listed a business that created a massive amount of activity, garnering ten offers, many above asking price. As part of our incredible exit series, today we welcome a seller who has had some time to reflect on all the things he did right in his sale and share what he has been up to since. Paul Anderson started his career as an accountant, taking the safe path and spending ten years in corporate America. An increasing lack of passion led him to start to build his own lifeboat. He avidly studied Amazon FBA and learned by following experts in the e-commerce space. Although his first launch failed he carried on, honing his awareness of product opportunities out there and eventually he hit it big. Today Paul delves into the building of the business, the pillars of his success, and the components of his path to becoming an exitpreneur. Episode Highlights: Paul's first product's failure to launch and what he learned. How he sourced the second product and what happened in the last quarter of 2016. Funding subsequent stock and the challenges of inventory planning. How Paul stands on all four pillars of a successfully built business as well as that invisible fifth pillar. The scheduling and nitty gritty of the sale process. How the final buyer was chosen and the deciding factors for Paul. Why the highest bidder does not always win. The toughest challenges of running the business. Why Paul decided to sell. What he has been doing since the sale. Tips for building a successful content website. Transcription: Mark: So almost one year ago to the date of the recording of this episode of the podcast I was on a car ride with Joe; you Joe from where was it? It was from Dallas down to Houston and then Houston back up to Dallas. We were meeting with a good friend of ours that lived in Houston and while we were in that car ride you had launched a new listing that went absolutely berserk. And I've referenced this; I think we've actually talked about this on the podcast a few times, I've referenced this deal because it was one of these outlier deals that seem to check every single box and the result was just a massive amount of requests for phone calls and I believe 10 offers within a very short amount of time. And it's been a year since that launched and obviously, the deal closed which we're super happy about but now you finally get to have the seller on the podcast talking about all the things that he did right. Joe: Yeah it's a great time because it's a year out so he gets to look back. And over the years of doing this podcast the people listening have heard us talk about the four pillars; risk, growth, transferability, and documentation and someone might go yeah ok whatever, the reality is that they matter. Paul Anderson sold his business; 10 offers, he checked off every one of these pillars and the six little subtitles under each pillar and then the fifth one which I know Mark there's no fifth pillar, but the fifth one is the man or person or entrepreneur behind the business. Paul being a former CPA turned entrepreneur who outsourced his bookkeeping to a bookkeeper is just a super likable guy, stay at home dad, buttoned up in so many different ways. The end result is I had to clear his schedule; he basically had three conference calls with highly qualified buyers for five days in a row. He was exhausted from it because each one was… Joe: So you had 15 conference calls then. Paul: 15 conference calls. Joe: And I remember again we were in the car going back up to Dallas and you were on the phone pretty much constantly telling people okay let me see if I can arrange a time for you. So there was a lot more requests for conference calls on this deal. Paul: A lot more requests and we say we had 10 offers but finally a few people dropped out because they just didn't want to compete because they knew what it is going to be. And the funny thing is people get concerned about that and we always say right up front look don't get caught up in the hype of multiple offers, don't go beyond your comfort level, offer-wise. We want you to make an offer that works for you and hopefully will work for the seller as well because we want it to go all the way from letter of intent through to due diligence and that's exactly what we wound up with. And oddly enough Paul did not choose as we always say they don't necessarily choose the highest price. He didn't do that. He picked the offer that was best for him and I think it was somewhere $150,000 lower than the highest price. So we talked about a little bit of that process, what makes a good seller, a good buyer, and then we talked about what he's doing today which is really interesting as well so hopefully, everybody will enjoy this podcast. Joe: Absolutely. Paul: Let's go to it. Joe: Hey folks. Joe Valley here from the Quiet Light Podcast and today I have an Incredible Exits client on the phone with me. It's Paul Anderson. We sold Paul's business I think; when was it, Paul? Paul: March of last year, so a little under a year ago. Joe: Spring of 2019; so a little under a year ago. So we're going to talk about Paul's exit. We're going to talk about what Paul went through when he built the business, sold the business after he sold the business, and what he's doing now so we're going to get the full picture. Paul welcome to the Quiet Light Podcast. Paul: Thanks Joe, good to be here. Good to talk to you. Joe: So for the folks listening why don't you give a little bit of background on your professional pedigree and your entrepreneurial journey? Paul: Yeah, sure. So I actually studied accounting and followed that path. I was kind of one of those people that never really knew what I wanted to do. Like some people I think they're just like hey I want to be a TV news reporter or a journalist, I never really had that strong thing tapped me on the shoulder that said this is what you should do so I took a pretty safe practical path. I went into accounting and got my CPA. I spent about 10 years working in corporate America doing accounting and finance jobs and didn't really ever feel like that passion and eventually it started to kind of wear me down. I got to the point where I had to think of something else to do and try to build my own little lifeboat to escape from that because something inside me just didn't feel right anymore doing that. So that's kind of what led into starting a business. So that's in 2016. Somewhere; I don't even remember where I started to hear about Amazon FBA and I kind of consumed everything I could about it like podcasts, there's this guy Manny Coats inaudible[00:06:09.6] Helium10, he had a great podcast back then, Amazing Seller; there's all sorts of good stuff online about the model and that's kind of how it started and I started really small. We can get into it from there but that was kind of the first step, learning about it and seeing like oh I think I could do this. Joe: So you learned about it from podcasts; you didn't pay for a course or anything like that, you were absorbing free information from experts in the space. Paul: I never bought a single course it was all podcasts, Facebook groups, Reddit forums, and I was just… Joe: I love it. Paul: Yeah I can tell you about the first launch which was a total fail but that was like my training course like the very first launch because I learned. Joe: Failure is a great lesson. How much money did you pull together to launch the business and were you working at that point in the CPA business? Paul: Yeah I was still working. It was 2016, I put $5,000 in to do; most of it was an inventory buy so I was on Alibaba like at night trying to find my suppliers talking with China and I put in probably about 5,000 bucks to start on my first product. Joe: Okay. And you just mentioned Helium10; did you use Helium10 to help you find that first product? Paul: Yes. So it's funny like almost all the products I launched I've kind of like encountered in the real world somewhere and the product that turned out to be my big business was I kind of got onto it from a discussion with my parents. We're just having a casual discussion like you would have many times a day and they mentioned this particular thing and I would always in my iPhone put down; anything that seemed interesting I would just like log it in there and then I come back to it. So I had a list of 20 to 30 things going and I went back and started doing some research. I actually was using Jungle Scout back then and I switched over to Helium10 for everything now. Joe: Oh they're both great products; both of them. Manny and Greg have both been on the podcast; great guys. Paul: Yeah, for sure. So I kind of punched it in there and said like oh this looks like; the numbers look good and that's kind of how it started but it really was that conversation being like; I think if there's a lesson there it's being aware, we have so many kinds of filters and blinders on like if you really put yourself in the headspace of looking for opportunities you'd be surprised how many little things you read online or you hear about through friends like this is really popular; there's just all sorts of those little things that pop up that could turn out to be big businesses. Joe: So pay attention to your surroundings; the stuff that you use every day, emerging products in categories and niches and try to pay attention to and think is there an opportunity? Did you use any tools to see if a lot of people were selling in that particular category and that particular product? Paul: I mean Jungle Scout helps with that but mainly you can just go on and kind of assess like if page one everyone's got a thousand reviews and they're really well-known brands or something that's probably going to be a tough place to break into. Joe: Tough barrier; okay. So tell us about your first test, it was an epic fail? Paul: Yeah, so I was really pumped and thought like here it is, this is going to be like my ticket out of full-time work and it's going to be amazing and it was actually an accessory. Have you ever heard of pour-over coffee? Joe: Yeah. Paul: So that was kind of just bubbling up, seeming like oh this is really a trending product… Joe: Too much work; I never bought it because… Paul: Too much work, yeah, but there's a lot of people that are really into the craft obviously a coffee one and having some artisan experience. So I sourced these little wooden coffee stands that's basically used to make pour-over coffee. And it was kind of a cool thing but it turns out products made out of wood can crack and can break and have issues and I was not an expert at sourcing at that point in time so the long story short a lot of the products ended up cracking and breaking. And then once you start getting all these one-star reviews and returns; like my garage was full all around with carts of returned inventory and there wasn't that much demand I think. At the start, I was thinking oh you really got a niche down into this little tiny space and own that and there just wasn't quite enough demand in that space either. So I kind of learned to be a little smarter on sourcing and just to look for ways that things can go wrong inaudible[00:10:31.6] thing that's just so niche that like even if you execute and everything is great like you're going to be selling a couple of units a day. Joe: So how much money did you test and lose on that first product launch? Paul: So that was about 5,000 bucks in and I didn't take to bad a bee but I think I lost about a thousand dollars on it which isn't bad. Joe: Oh that's not bad. Paul: Yeah. Joe: Not enough to make you go away and say okay this didn't work I'm done; I'm going to go back to the corporate world. You got a taste for it and you said okay I just picked the wrong product. Paul: Exactly. And I mean I was still in the corporate world and like 5,000 bucks it's not like a lot of money at the time so it wasn't like I was; I'm like yeah whatever it doesn't matter. At that point, the stakes felt real and high. Joe: Yeah. Paul: Because it definitely was like I can see the power here on Amazon it's just like finding the right thing to really get this thing spinning. Joe: Okay. So you learned a lesson; you only lost 20% of your money but you get an excellent education from it better than any course you could have ever purchased. You went out there tried it, failed, learned, and didn't lose so much that you couldn't do it again. So you came up with another product niche and decided to go at it again? Paul: Exactly yes. So then I was actually going over to; are you familiar with the Canton Fair which is the big supplier…? Joe: Yeah. Paul: So I had a trip booked to go over there and kind of in-between going there… Joe: Just out of curiosity did you book it with a group or was it just you? Paul: Just me and my wife went over. Joe: Oh okay, because I was just talking to Athena from China Magic and they have a group of folks that go on a regular basis for those that are terrified to go alone. So you and your wife chose to book a flight to China and go to the Canton Fair alone. Paul: I loved it. It was really, really full out and I'm eager to go over there. Joe: Okay. Paul: I actually ended up finding my supplier on Alibaba before I went so I can't really say that the trip necessarily paid off in terms of like… Joe: Did you connect with him in person when you got to the Canton Fair? Paul: No because it was still too early and he was pretty far away from the Canton Fair. I think it helped me really see kind of like the culture of China and doing business with China and I think just a little savvier about how things work. So it was a great education for that and just like a lot of fun to check it out; I mean the place is just massive, like multiple football fields. Anything you want to ever source it would be out there so it was a super interesting spot. But anyway back to your second question so yes I stumbled upon this other product and started kind of the wheels turning in 2016 to source it. I got it on I think in the fall of 2016 and I remember that Q4 for Amazon or e-commerce is like the prime time and I remember just refreshing that seller app that Black Friday, Cyber Monday, like all through up until Christmas and it was just mind-blowing the sales that were coming in off this new product. Joe: What was it like your first day that you got a sale, how many sales did you have all together; do you remember? Paul: Oh I mean it started slow. The first thing was probably just two or three units. I mean it's really; it was in such a momentum game like when you have no momentum it's hard to keep momentum and then once you get this momentum going and the wheels start spinning it can blow your mind like the amount of sales that… Joe: And that actually blew our mind within the first month or in that first quarter like what did you wind up with on the biggest day within a couple of months of launching it in the Q4 of ‘16? Paul: I don't want to say maybe like $8,000 of sales there. Joe: Oh, wow. Paul: Something big like and then when you look at the profits from that it's like wow I made more money like on this one day than; and I had a pretty decent corporate job, I'm like this is crazy like the potential. So the hooks kind of got in me right there and then '16 was kind of just getting off the ground and then the next year is when the ball really started to roll. Joe: When you started to get revenue in the fourth quarter of 2016 and sales started to come in you had euphoria with the fact that you were getting that kind of revenue and making more money in one day than you made perhaps in a month in the corporate world but did you also have the fear of oh my God I'm going to run out of inventory? Paul: I did. Joe: Okay. Paul: Yeah, inventory is like not something glamorous to talk about and you don't really hear about it that much in podcasts or anything else but it's like running a physical products company doing an Amazon business like the inventory planning is so difficult because your sales can change on a dime. inaudible[00:15:20.7] your supplier 30 days early to make something and another 30 days to put them on a ship to get it over here. So you've got these difficult variables to manage that can leave you stocked out or even a little bit too much stuck so that's always a tough thing to manage. Joe: Awesome. I don't think I've ever met an Amazon seller or an e-commerce business person that's been growing rapidly that's not run out of inventory at one point or another. All right, so you started with $5,000, did a test, failed, how long between the first failed test and the second product that took off; how many months was it? Paul: That was about three months I think. Joe: Okay, and all the time you kept your day job which is fantastic. So you've got some revenue, you've got some money in the account that's transferred to your business account, at what point did you order more inventory with and did you just use that money or did you sit down and talk as a family and say okay this is a winner we need to take a home equity line of credit; how did you fund the rest of the inventory purchases? Paul: It was all really funded with profits. Joe: It was? Okay. Paul: Yeah, it was. Joe: And you didn't have to take any money out for living expenses because you had your day job so that's perfect. Paul: Yeah. If I wouldn't have my day job it would have made it much more difficult but luckily I had some steady income coming in on the day job and then I was able to just take the profits and reinvest them back in and just go from there. Joe: Fast forwarding you had an amazing 2017, an amazing 2018; strong year over year growth, like huge year over year growth. For those listening, Paul's business was listed again spring of 2019 and it's those perfect situation folks where we talk about the four pillars of a sellable business and that invisible fifth one which is the person behind the business and that's Paul. We have a 30-month-old Amazon business with an incredible brand that's growing rapidly year over year. The financials we're set up impeccably. Paul is a CPA but he did something incredible which was what? You outsourced the books to an e-commerce bookkeeper; brilliant by the way. So those of you that are out there saying oh I can do this I'm not going to pay a few hundred bucks to a bookkeeper we've got a CPA here that chose to outsource to an e-commerce bookkeeper because he can do better things than bookkeeping with his time like grow a multi-million dollar Amazon brand which is exactly what you did. Your business checks so many boxes. It was SBA eligible. You were the owner behind the business. You built trust. People believed in you. During the recorded video interview, you're the first person; and I keep asking people to do it now, you're the first person that ever sat in front of the camera, reached down picked up the product and demonstrated the product. You showed the new packaging that you had just done. It was beautiful and the end result was an overwhelming request to buy the business, conference calls where you had to clear your schedule for a week. I said Paul cancel everything, right? We had to clear it and we ended up with I think three calls with qualified buyers every day for five days. We wound up with 10 total offers. I think we were at; the top one was something like $150,000 over asking price. Paul: Yeah, I think that's right. Yeah. Joe: Yeah, and we say this all the time that it's not always the offer that comes in with the highest number, it's the right fit more than anything else. We had; of the 10 offers, I think we had maybe six that were SBA and four that were cash. You ended up choosing a cash buyer and not just because it was a cash buyer but also the person behind the business. We did video interviews between the buyer and seller. How much did that matter and how much of a difference did that make for you? Paul: The interviews mattered a ton. I mean that was the deciding factor because when I went into the process I just thought like well it's pretty simple, right? You take the highest number and the highest bidder wins but as you get into it and talk to different people it's like a huge diverse set of backgrounds that people are coming through Quiet Light looking to buy, right? Joe: Right. Paul: And some people I felt like wow I could just hand this to them and they could run with it immediately and do like as good or better a job with this than I ever could. And others are like hey I really like this person and their heart is in the right place but I feel like the transition might take a little bit longer and then what if somewhere they dropped the ball and things get sideways like I don't want that somehow to come back to me. I don't know if that's a rational way to think about it but if there was a lot of comfort like feeling this guy or these guys I feel like really got it, they get it, they know what to do, they will hit the ground running from day one so to me that mattered a whole lot. Joe: Yeah. And I think given the fact that we're in this remote world where your buyers and sellers are all over the world literally sometimes doing a video conference call for that initial call breaks the ice. You're not reading the client interview anymore, you're not just talking to somebody on the phone; you can see the whites of their eyes and anybody that wants to see Paul we're recording this both on Zoom with video and audio and it will be up on the YouTube page as well. He does not look like a buttoned-up CPA today and I was making fun of him when we first got on the call. You've always looked like that but today you know what you're a successful exitpreneur. You got the sweatshirt on, a little stubble, working from home; I love it. All right so I want to you ask a couple of things just for the audience purposes. Number one back to running the business what was the toughest challenge in running the business? Let's start with that. Go ahead. Paul: Yeah. I'd say even at the start this isn't even a tactical thing but the hardest thing was just getting the momentum going. Starting an Amazon business is not like hey I'm trying to create an electric car and beat Elon Musk but even me like I had a lot of doubts at the start like is this is going to work, am I going to lose all my money? All of these doubts kind of creep into your head so I remember really kind of struggling to pull the trigger in a way thinking like I just don't know is this supposed to be my pathway? So I think that was really hard to overcome and you just kind of keep going one foot in front of the other and once you get a little momentum it just like brings all this energy and life into you that you just feel so energized to just keep improving and add products and make your products better and make the packaging better. Getting that first momentum can feel elusive and challenging so I think that was like a big thing at the start. Joe: And you failed and then you stuck with it and then you succeeded. Paul: Yeah. And I was kind of at an inflection point like should I keep going or is this just not meant to be and then you know. Joe: This may be a dumb question but are you glad you kept going? Paul: I'm very glad. It changed my life that I kept going. I mean I'd still be sitting at a desk in corporate America right now I hadn't kept going and like we've got a three-year-old son at home like the physical time we will spend with him and then mentally my head is so much like the stress is away from me. So I was always stressed working in corporate America so it's been the biggest blessing ever to go out and do this. It's changed my whole family's life. Joe: Okay. So let me ask the question that all buyers ask, why did you sell the business? Paul: Yeah, it was a tough decision to sell because I was having so much fun running it. And I think the honest answer is the value of the business became such that it really could provide a lot of security for our family. And it felt like if I was 23 and single and didn't have kids I'll like alright instead of going for this I might have just keep on going and try to sell it for three times this or five times this or just keep going. But knowing Amazon can be volatile and like I had all my eggs in that basket so it just felt like the responsible thing is to take some chips off the table and let go of the business but it was really hard. Joe: The responsible thing; I like that, the responsible thing. Your CPA background is coming out now. That's good. Paul: Yeah. Joe: All right so what was the toughest part about going through the sales process and selling the business; what was the hardest part there? Paul: Picking a buyer was really tough. Joe: It's a good problem. That's a good problem to have. Paul: I mean just even knowing how to approach it and you really helped a ton Joe in that process. When it's your first time through and you already have kind of these emotions like you built this thing and now it's worth something that people want it, it's a weird feeling and like how to value it and how to find the right fit and thinking about SBA versus cash; there's just a lot of things that are spinning through your head at that time so I think just getting a clear head and trying to identify what the right fit was the toughest part. Joe: Okay. I think you again exception rather than really had 10 offers, I think maybe one or two might have come in slightly under asking price but the vast majority was above. I think 2019 the average offers that we had on any single listening was two and a half so you are five times that amount which is pretty exceptional. That goes to the brand that you built. It goes to the way that you set the business up with its own entity. You didn't come and go books. You're a CPA but you hired a professional bookkeeper. You instilled so much confidence in buyers. They clearly came out of the woodworks to buy your business. All right, the toughest part was choosing the buyer; that's amazing. It's not what I would've guessed you would have said. Sometimes it's due diligence but with you, it was choosing a buyer. All right so now there's life after the sale, you were in the corporate world working 40, 50 hours a week or sometimes more in tax season and then you're an entrepreneur working from home spending time with your son now what are you doing? You've sold the business nine months ago, what are you doing with your time? Paul: Yeah so it's been nice to have a little; in life usually you're just like chasing after the next thing and I've had just the time to step back and think really what I want to do and what I want my life to look like so it's been like a real luxury. So I'm going into; I'm building a website, it's called WealthFam.com. Joe: Fam like family? Okay. Paul: Yup like family. It's brand new but basically it sort of like combines my background and what I like to do. So it's all about building wealth; becoming financially independent, starting and running online businesses. Basically, it's how to be smarter with your money and use the money to help kind of enable the life that you want to live whether it's being with your kids or going on trips or whatever else. So it's a content site which is a super interesting thing. I thought a lot about going back and doing another Amazon business but I just didn't feel the same spark for like starting it and it takes a lot of energy and mental fortitude to take something from A to Z and you've got to really want it kind of every step of the way. So this just kind of really energized me and there's been some great stories like Ramon's story; you featured Ramon. It like blew my mind the… Joe: His content site, yeah. Paul: And that happened in the content space so that was really exciting to me. And on top of that I just like doing this stuff so it feels like the right sort of fit. Joe: So what kind of subjects are you going to cover on Wealth Fam? Paul: So it's broken down a couple of categories like making money, saving money, investing money, financial independence, and then some stuff like how money intersects with having a kid and being married or buying a house. So I'm trying to make it like a modern personal finance site that people in their teens, 20s, 30s, can find well like at least from my experience like education society; like our schools and in general, there's not a lot of like real training about… Joe: There's none of it. There's none of it, yeah. Paul: And there's even a lesson mode like starting an online business and like the potential kind of betting on yourself. Joe: It seems like a great idea because you're taking your educational experience along with your entrepreneurial experience and marrying them together with a content site which is great. I love content sites. We work with SaaS, content, and FBA and content is just fantastic. Scott Voelker is really, really focused on helping people go beyond FBA and build content sites and some of them have great success and its driving more traffic back to FBA and getting their business products sold. For those that aren't familiar with content site monetization, how do you plan to monetize the site? Paul: So there's a couple of traditional ways that people will do it. So, first of all, you have to have traffic. I mean if I have traffic inaudible[00:28:43.3] selling eyeballs like it's tough to; getting traffic is really hard and you're playing like this SEO game and it takes a long time to rank in Google. Then there's a couple of primary ways, the first is affiliate links like you could be selling a course or selling something on Amazon or selling; the Amazon FBA thing is a really interesting thing for Amazon sellers to marry their inaudible[00:29:04.9] business with content. I love that idea. I think that's really smart. There's brand sponsorships, other partnerships; but it's like advertising and affiliate income are kind of the two main plays for monetizing. Joe: I got you, okay. All right how's life at home; what do you do with your time? I mean you've you don't have a job. You're starting a content site which might take a little bit of your time. You've got a baby. Paul: It takes a lot of time. Joe: It takes a lot; the startup phase is always the hardest, isn't it? Paul: Inaudible[00:29:38.4] the thing I underestimated about content is that like writing is really hard. Joe: Yeah. Paul: I think oh I can write something about Amazon, that's easy, I know this. It takes a lot of time to really do a good job at clarifying your thoughts but overall I'm just trying to optimize my life for happiness and contentment and I get that right now being with my son and my wife. So I spend a lot of time with my family. We do a lot of cool stuff together. And I'm really liking; I do some Amazon consulting because I'm still at the Amazon blog and I like to be involved in it so I'm doing some of that for some local companies which I love doing. Joe: Good. Paul: And then this content thing really is exciting and fun and I'm going to see where it can go and… Joe: So you didn't make enough on the sale of your business to never work again but enough to give you a pretty long runway and you're enjoying your expertise in the Amazon space and doing some consulting while you're building up another content or a content business? Paul: Yeah that's a fair way to… Joe: Does that sum it up? Paul: Yeah and I'd like to go up those kind of shift too, right? I'm not sure how in-tune you are with the financial independence world, all the people that want to retire early and be financially… Joe: Oh yeah, fire. Paul: So like if your burn rate or you can live on 40 grand a year once you stacked up a million bucks, in theory, you can quote-unquote retire. Joe: Sure. Paul: But as you think about education and college and healthcare and all these other things that number maybe gets a little bit… Joe: It gets blown out of the water. I have an 18-year-old and we're 14 days away from knowing what he's getting into which is schools and I'm rooting for the in-state schools; I'm not going to lie to you, I'm rooting for the in-state. Paul: Hey, I went to an in-state school and… Joe: Look at how it turned out; pretty damn good. Paul: Yeah. Joe: All right cool. Well, listen Paul I always tell the story about you and your brand and the fact that that fifth pillar makes a huge difference. It's the person behind the business that builds a great business with the next owner in mind. You kind of did that, I don't know if you did it intentionally or not but you said I'm going to build a great business. I want to put it all in a package that's going to help the new owner of the business do amazing things with it. And Matt the new owner of the business as you know is doing amazing things with it. And it pays off when you think about others exactly what you did that paid off for you, it paid off for your family, and now hopefully through Wealth Fam, it's going to pay off for a lot of other visitors to your website as well so people can start young and start smart and get on the right path financially. So listen man thanks for your time. I appreciate the business that you've built because it allows me to tell a story of how the person behind the business makes a tremendous difference so thank you and I appreciate you coming on the podcast today. Paul: You got it. Anytime. Thanks a lot, Joe. Links and Resources: Paul's Website Jungle Scout Helium 10
There is always a recession coming, we just don't know when. The US is in one of the longest expansion periods ever known but many predict a recession in the next twelve to twenty-four months. Business owners can make money in a growing economy and they can make also money in an economy that is pulling back. Today we are talking to Jonathan Slain, founder of Recession.com – a company he started in 2008 when he lost his fitness-based business. He saw an opening and borrowed the money to launch his successful recession-proof consulting business. In his new book, Rock the Recession, Jonathan and his co-author highlight ways savvy entrepreneurs can bounce back from internal recession and make plans to be buyers when opportunity knocks. Episode Highlights: Jonathan's recommendations for owners of online businesses to start assessing themselves as recession ready. How to benchmark a small online business with smaller revenues. Importance of board of advisors and mentors and how to find them. The cost and time involved in choosing advisors and mentors. Other actionable advice for someone running an online business to prepare for economic downturn. The importance of having access to capital and credit now rather than waiting for the pull back. Why Jonathan wrote his book. Internal recessions and how to avoid or rectify them. How to research whether what you're selling will survive or thrive. Advice for the business hunter in pre-recession times. Some final tips in Jonathan's own words. Hint; plan now. Transcription: Mark: Joe there's a recession coming. Joe: Is it? I'm not sure I thought it was here 18 months ago or was coming 18 months ago and now it's going to be fall of 2020. What's the story? How do you know this? Mark: Well there's always a recession coming, right? Joe: Oh, yeah. Mark: I mean we know we just don't know when but if you look at; I would encourage people listening; when you're in your car don't pick up your phone but when you get back to your office or get back to in front of a computer do a search for a graph of recession gaps and you'll get to see from 1900 until present when the recessionary periods were and when the non-recessionary periods were. And we are in a period of time right now, one of the longest expansion periods in our economy and so it's not really soot saying or you know looking in a crystal ball to see that there's a recession coming. We know it's going to happen, we don't know how bad, we don't know when exactly but we do know it is. And I had an investment professor in college who would say all the time bears get rich, bulls get rich, pigs get slaughtered and I always thought well bears get rich too but you need to actually plan for; I screwed that up, it's bulls and bears and pigs but whatever you need to plan for this… Joe: I'm just trying to think through what you just said so thank you I thought I was not keeping up with you. Mark: Well you know what I failed that class so maybe that's why I don't know the right answer. But bulls get rich, bears get rich, pigs get slaughtered. And the point was you can make money in a growing economy, you can make money in a declining economy don't get greedy; that's the lesson but there is an in lesson in there, you can make money in a down economy but how many of those listening right now are just looking at their last year being like that was awesome without any idea of what they're going to do when; not if but when the economy pulls back or they haven't pull backed within their own company. And I know you talked to somebody who specializes in this; he owns recession.com for goodness sake. Joe: I know what a great URL, Recession.com, it's Jonathan Slain and he's been through this. He started his own company in 2008 and just had to fight through meeting payroll and all these different things and learned so much in terms of being ready for the next recession and preparing for the next recession. And he's expanded beyond the actual economic recessions that we're talking about and focuses a little bit in helping companies with internal recessions so that if they had a client that had a subscription or SaaS business but only had 10 major clients and they lost two or three within a month or two that's an internal recession. If you've got a hero SKU that you're selling and 70% of your revenue is from that hero SKU you are setting yourself up for an internal financial recession with your business if competition comes in and hurts that. So he has a readiness assessment test; a recession readiness assessment test on his website and it goes through and compares how you are prepared compared to others and helps people take advantage of upcoming recessions and avoid the major pitfalls in being one of those pigs that get slaughtered. Mark: Well let's get right to it because I think this is an important topic for anyone. Anyone out there that has an online business, don't get too fat on your current earnings. Understand that businesses go through cycles, economies go through cycles, let's all survive this next cycle and thrive in the next cycle and it sounds like that's what we're going to learn here. Joe: Hey folks Joe here from Quiet Light Brokerage and today I've got Jonathan Slain with us. Jonathan is the author of Rock the Recession and is an expert in preparing for an economic downturn either in a worldwide situation or a nationwide situation or possibly in your own business. Jonathan welcome to the podcast. Jonathan: Let's rock. Good to be here. Joe: Can you expand on that background a little bit? We don't do any fancy introductions here. Can you tell the audience who you are what you're all about and where you come from? Jonathan: Yeah, so I come to you today from my home in Cleveland, Ohio but I really started my career; I have to disclose that I'm a recovering investment banker. And so that's where I started. From there I went on to own my own business which was five gyms all located in Cleveland. I think you mentioned earlier that I borrowed some money from my mother in law in the Great Recession so we can talk about that. And since then now I am full time doing consulting for large companies looking to grow revenue in or profit and that is what brought me to writing the book. And then when we were talking before we started the show getting me on Fox News lately. So we can talk about any or all of that but that's my story. Joe: Well congratulations on stepping up to the Quiet Light Brokerage podcast from Fox, it's a big show you're on now. Jonathan: Understood. Joe: Are you nervous? Jonathan: A little bit. Joe: We've got some pretty impressive people in the audience believe it or not; they're both buyers and sellers of online businesses, entrepreneurs that are building businesses that they're solopreneurs in some case sometimes they have remote VAs working for them sometimes they have staff. But what would your recommendations be for those that are; first we'll talk about the owners of online businesses and how they prepare for a potential economic recession. Jonathan: Yes. So the first thing that I would do is to assess where you are. So as a business owner it's really to benchmark how you're doing compared to where everybody else is in the market. So if you don't know where you stand then you can't figure out what you should do first to start to get better and improve. When it comes to benchmarking that was where my business partner and the co-author of the book; that's where we started. And so we put up a free tool. It's on our website so if the audience wants to go to recession.com they can go there. It's 20 questions. It only takes about 5 to 10 minutes Joe and you'll get a score from 0 to 100. If you're a zero then it's likely that you're going to go bankrupt in the next recession, if you're a hundred then you're licking your chops; can't wait to pounce when we hit the next downturn. So that's where I'd start. Joe: How do you benchmark in an industry like the online business with a lot of smaller businesses doing less than 10 million in revenue when none of the information is public? Jonathan: Yeah. So what I can tell you is that from all of the responses we've received to the recession readiness assessment, the average score right now is a 37. So I think for people looking to benchmark themselves with other private companies 37 is where we're seeing the mark. If you're above that score that relative to we've got a thousand plus responses you're probably doing better than the average and below that can be nervous. So I think that's one piece but it brings up a good point and I think part of what I was listening to on some of your other episodes is that private businesses, small businesses need to have their own board of advisors. And so that's one of the questions actually on our assessment is do you have a board of advisors? And I'm not talking about your lawyer, I'm not talking about your accountant, I'm talking about people that have a proven track record of making money in business preferably in a similar business to what you're doing to your online business and that will just give you straight feedback. Again I know that some people bristle when I say don't have your accountant or lawyer on the team. My issue is that your paid professionals may not want to tell you what you need to hear all the time for fear of losing your business. Joe: And I think that's a great idea. I call them mentors or board advisers whatever it might be. The question is I saw something on the hustle the other day, we focus on or I watched that and I know Sam and that was a question that someone came up with so like look I'm trying to find a local mentor or board of advisors; how do you find them? A lot of people gave a lot of different responses but what would your advice be in terms of trying to find the right type of mentor or board of advisor and is there a cost associated with it? Jonathan: So I always have a list. I call it the list. I keep it with me at all times. It's the 10 people I'd love to have on my board of advisors; the people I'd love to have as a mentor or a coach. And the issue is that most of them are not going to work with me right now. These are all folks that are super busy; they're overcommitted, and so they're on my list because once a quarter I bug them. I send them an email, I text them, I give them a phone call, I just drip on them and I try to wear them down until they finally get to the point where they're like fine I'll coach you; I'll mentor you. And that's literally I think how I've gotten a lot of my mentors because the people that I'm chasing don't have discretionary time. And so I don't think it's as simple as we listen to the podcast and we decide I'm going to do this thing and you just all of a sudden have a board. It's going to be a process that takes some time. In terms of the cost associated with it, I do think it depends on who you're working with. But I would think an honorarium of 500 to $1,000 per board member per quarter is fair. And I'll tell you that they shouldn't need the money. If the reason they're doing this is turning a little bit extra money I don't think you have the right person on your board. I think that in most cases they should be donating whatever you are giving them to their favorite nonprofit. And I think they should want you to pay them the 500 just to keep you honest and actually listening to their counsel and to keep them honest so that they feel like they have some skin in the game that they need to do some research; they need to read your financials before they get to the meeting. Joe: And how much time a quarter do you take up with someone like that? Jonathan: Yes. So my thought would be a four-hour meeting once a quarter and that they should do anywhere between two and four hours of prep of reading whatever packet that you send to them before the meeting. Joe: Okay, not too bad. What actionable advice can you give people that are running online businesses now in addition to the board members what could someone do now thinking okay, if there is an economic recession I want to do everything I can to prepare over the next 6 to 12 months. What can they do now? Jonathan: Yes. So the second step in the whole process would be to tune yourself and your business up. And by tune up I mean you're going to be doing things like looking at your line of credit. So do you have the right line of credit to be able to grow in a recession? Joe: Why do they need a line of credit? Jonathan: So by that, I simply mean capital access to cash if we get into a downturn and you see an awesome opportunity to buy assets to buy inventory for cheap, to be able to afford talent that you couldn't get access to during the recession or maybe they find a bolt-on opportunity for their business to purchase another business then you're going to need access to capital in order to make all those things happen. Joe: And what forms of credit would you advise someone seek? Jonathan: Yes. So I think that the best would probably be a line of credit that isn't secured by personal assets. If you can't get that done then look at a home equity line of credit and if you can't get that done then look at credit cards. The thing is to have access to capital; you don't have to use it. But here's the deal like right now when the economy is good this is the best possible time to go to your bank and ask for credits. When we're in a recession, when we're in a downturn the banks are not going to loan you money. They're going to laugh at you if you come and you try to borrow from them. I mean one of my favorite sayings is that you can go to a bank; it's like asking for an umbrella except when it's raining. So banks operate in the same way. They want to extend credit now because all the banks are competing for your business. When we're in a recession, when we're in a downturn they're going to start to contract their portfolios. They're going to start to mitigate risk. They're not going to want to open up new lines of credit especially for online businesses; especially for newer online businesses that they see as riskier and not asset-backed. Joe: I'm going to back that up, folks. I sold my business as you all know in November of 2010. I bought a house in June of 2010. I paid mostly cash for it. I sold my business in November and then got busy got delayed and didn't apply for that home equity line of credit until sometime in May the following year. Well, guess what? I had filed my tax returns. I didn't have employment. I had a ridiculous amount of equity in my home and I got declined for a home equity line of credit because of timing. It was ridiculous. It was 2011 at that point as well. So the economy was just coming back and I had a ridiculous amount of credit but because I didn't have a quote-unquote job or income at the time I got turned out for hillock. And I had been given previous advice exactly like this and this is from my mentor; a business person, a business advisor, always have some sort of line of credit available to you. Jonathan is right. Make sure if you can it's not tied to personal assets but the reality in this solopreneur world that we live in for the most part that's really hard to do. If you can't get that non-secured get secured and get it backed up as a credit line with your investment advisors or on your home equity line of credit or any other way that you can. What about credit cards and revolving credit cards; do you advise people to mess around with that at all or is that something that they should avoid? Jonathan: Well I would as a last resort. Again for me, you don't have to use them. But I'm a business owner too; I'm an entrepreneur I always want to have a backup in case things don't go as planned and so part of this is that I want everyone to look forward to the next recession. I know that's weird but that was the idea behind why we wrote the book. I mean the traditional plan for a recession is fire people and cut overhead and just survive and that book's already been written many times over. The idea here was what if we studied people that leverage recessions and use them as a way to hack the system to escape the usual need to hustle and grind to be able to grow your business and then sell it for a dream outcome. And so I'm always thinking of how can we use credit in downtimes to be able to buy assets to buy businesses from other people that weren't smart enough to listen to our podcast; from everybody that didn't prepare. And at the same time if all the stuff we're talking about isn't working; Joe, if people are listening and they're like look my business isn't growing and I'm in a recession myself then you need access to that capital just to survive. I mean at the end of the day we all need to protect the beehive as entrepreneurs because if the business doesn't survive then none of the rest of this matters. Joe: And that's almost moving into the second type of recession and that's just an internal business recession when someone has key employees that leave or hero SKUs where competition comes in. How do you help people in that regard or what actionable steps can you recommend to them that they take to avoid a situation like that or rectify it if it happens? Jonathan: Perfect. I mean I know a lot of people don't always agree with my predictions. I do think that we're going to have some sort of a downturn in the US economy towards the end of 2020. I don't think it'll be a full-blown recession but I do think as we get closer to the election that consumers and businesses will hold up in terms of spending and that will slow our economy down. But if you're rolling your eyes right now, if you're saying I don't agree with this guy I don't think the next recession still 2021 or 2022 and you're about to tune us out then just wait one sec. The idea here is that you brought up non-economic recessions so if your biggest customer leaves that would usually put most businesses into a recession. It could apply to a hero SKU in our case. If you have a competitor come in and attack your hero SKU; same difference, you're in a recession. If your best one or two employees leave and they go start a competing business, you are in a recession. The other one that has recently come up is what about government and regulatory changes? I mean I know the audience understands that vaping is a huge new business and everybody wants to get into marijuana, get into vaping well in New England they recently passed a law putting a moratorium on vaping while they studied the after-effects of it after there were several deaths. All of a sudden all those online businesses that were selling vaping cartridges were vaporized. And that happened overnight. It happened very quickly. So I want everybody listening to have a plan for how they can leverage those opportunities. Joe: Well the tariffs I guess could be considered a recession for some businesses. I've got a client who's tariffs are 42.6% on top of his cost of goods sold; a pretty big impact. Jonathan: They sell online? Joe: No, they don't. Jonathan: Okay. Well so it's thinking through if you're in one of those businesses what can you do? So the question then becomes you want to start to think about how you can diversify. And I know that the more practical tips for this are that I like to use online research. There's a site called Ibis World and it's a paid site. Joe: Is that I-B-I-S? Jonathan: I-B-I-S. Ibis World. You would have to make an investment but they provide industry reports on where they believe the future of different industries are going. So if you're selling line online they've got a report for that. If you're selling widgets online they've got a report for that. And the idea there is that you want to think about industries that will do better in the downturn and industries that will do worse. So in the book, we write about some of our favorite; some of the ones that got pummeled in the last recession, in the Great Recession and the ones that did well. The ones that got pummeled think like jewelry stores not good in a recession. If you're selling high-end jewelry online or in a store; not good, same thing with things like travel and tourism, discretionary goods. That's why I was selling personal training services in the Great Recession; not good. We all know that insurance and finance got hit especially hard in the Great Recession. Not good. So the ones that did well would be things like consumer staples; so if you're selling consumer staples like toothpaste, people are still going to need to brush their teeth in a downturn. If you start to get more exotic with your thinking; think about like veterinary clinics and veterinary supplies, people still spend money and take care of their pets in a downturn. And people don't care; if their dog is sick they'll put it on a credit card, if their dog likes Eukanuba and that's one of the most expensive brands, people will not change their dog food brand if we're in a recession. So if you're an online seller of those high-end pet products; I actually like that market. I think it will continue moving forward. My point just to answer your question though is that if you slow down, if you do some of the deep work of thinking instead of just being busy then I think all the answers are actually out there for how I will position myself, how I would start to diversify if I am in that hero SKU situation. Joe: In other words I had a neighbor tell me once; I was asking him, he was a bit of a mentor as well, he said Joe, you know exactly what to do. You just need somebody else to tell you to reinforce it. Same thing here folks; you've heard Mark and I say it and almost every guest that's ever been on the podcast, focus on the business. It's not about driving top-line revenue only, focus on the nuts and bolts of the bottom line part of the business and that's going to bring value; improve transferability, the documentation, the growth trends, the data behind the business and that's going to bring you more value in the short run and in the long run if you eventually do sell your business. And that leads Jonathan to talking about the other half of the audience; the people that are buying online businesses, those people that tune in week after week as they're on the hunt for that next business that they want to buy and they listen to us. What advice can you give to someone if they're out there hunting for a business in terms of looking for that business with a potential forthcoming recession? Jonathan: Yeah. So I want to start with the story and that's that Paul Belair who I wrote the book with; right before the Great Recession started Paul bought a business. He invested a million dollars with his management team to purchase the business and they grew it during the Great Recession. It was an HVAC business, so a business that helped out with heating, ventilation, and air conditioning; not a sexy business. And they sold it 63 months later. They sold it for over 70 million. Joe: He bought it for a million and sold it for over 70. Jonathan: So the purchase price was higher than a million but they put in a million in cash. Joe: I got you. Jonathan: And then they had some debt to fund the rest of it. Joe: Fair enough. That still sounds like a hell of a return on investment. Jonathan: Yeah well it's 70X on your cash plus; I can't tell you the exact number. He's under an NDA but in any case, it's even over 70 million. So that's why Paul writes the book with me but in terms of being on podcasts, you would prefer to be off playing pick-up ball in Florida. Joe: So hopefully he's using Amazing Aces. We've got a client that bought that business and it's a great brand. Jonathan: Really? Joe: Yeah. Joe: Jonathan: I love it. Well, it's Amazing Aces? Joe: Absolutely. Jonathan: All right I'm making; you know what? I'm still Christmas shopping for him. Joe: There you go. Jonathan: So I tell you that story because part of the way that they did that huge one million to 70 million dollar exit is that they picked a business and then they moved it such that it would have a tailwind in a downturn. And so if you're a buyer right now it's thinking about what kinds of businesses would get an economic tailwind if we were in a downturn and then like my mom says you've got to put yourself in the middle of the street if you want to get run over. So Paul… Joe: Very bad parenting; I don't know what the deal is with your mom but I got to say that's not very good advice. Alright. Jonathan: Paul put himself in the middle of the street because what he did was when he bought that HVAC business they moved it from doing mostly construction; so by construction I just mean when you buy a new HVAC system and they install it on the roof of your building that's a construction project. Joe: Yeah. Jonathan: Those units cost 5 to 20,000; that's a big project, a big investment. They moved it to doing service. So how could they take the equipment that was existing for a business owner and repair it because in a downturn; in a recession, people would rather repair their equipment than replace it. And so Paul saw that trend coming with his management team and totally changed the business to really capitalize on that. And that's how they were able to grow it into this recurring revenue business which again is another big thing I'd be looking out for your buyers. Joe: Yeah. Jonathan: Yeah. How do we get into a business that has recurring revenue? How can we be selling the razor cartridges instead of that one-time transaction? Joe: So find a business in a niche that's not going to be impacted by a downturn whether it's a critical service business or something like the pet space where people will spend money on their pets no matter what and adding some sort of recurring revenue aspect to it. Beyond that any thoughts in terms of their own personal financials and how to prepare for it in terms of buying; is it the same thing lining up as much line of credit and purchasing power as possible? Jonathan: Yeah well actually my favorite tip there is on the personal guarantee side. So I know right now with the economy booming; I mean consumer confidence is at record highs, unemployment is at record lows, the economy is still booming so banks are still willing to do more than they will at any other point in our economic cycle. I love the idea of capping, reducing, or eliminating personal guarantees especially for your buyers. So what does that look like to go to the bank and ask them to do the deal but to do it without a personal guarantee or to put a cap on that personal guarantee? Right now I think bankers are willing to have that conversation. You don't have to give up a blanket personal guarantee on all of your stuff. So this isn't possible generally with an SBA loan so don't worry about writing to me about that because I get it. But if you can do a conventional loan product can you get it so that you can cap those personal guarantees or reduce them? And it may mean that you have to shop banks, maybe you have to go to four or five banks, maybe you have to talk to your local credit union to make that possible. I just think it's worth having that conversation so that if we get into a downturn; if your business does go sideways that you've mitigated some of the risks that you would otherwise have. And it's free to ask. Joe: And on that aspect folks we've had Shakil Prasla on the podcast and Shakil has bought half a dozen businesses and he's done it mostly with non-SBA money and building up credit with banks and probably is avoiding that personal guarantee as well. So Google Shakil Prasla and Quiet Light Podcast and you'll find that episode. In fact, I think if you Google Shakil he's got a new course on how to purchase an online business as well so check that out. Jonathan before we go any last-minute thoughts or advice for anybody listening in terms of rocking the recession that may be coming in like 2020 in your words? Jonathan: Yes. The main thing is to put together the recession plan in the cool rational light of day as opposed to the emotional heat of the night. I want the audience to be thinking about putting together a plan now and then putting it under glass and then if you do have a recession in your business or you see on Fox or CNN that they're announcing that the economy's in a recession you can go over the glass break the glass take out your plan and start to execute it. The issue most of the time is that we don't have a plan and so when we get into a recession whether it's personal or affecting the entire country you're huddled in the fetal position in the corner of your office like I was when the Great Recession hit. I didn't have a plan. I had people knocking on my office door asking me what was going to happen with the business. And I just spent months trying to figure out what the plan was while all my competitors were executing and taking the best opportunities off the shelf. Well if you're still graciously listening to us that's what I really want for you is to be one of the people that can actually be looking forward to the recession and that can just move into execution mode when the next recession is announced. Joe: That's great advice. Thank you, Jonathan. How do the audience find out about more about what you do online and helping them rocking the recession? How can they find you? Jonathan: Sure. Recession.com is the website and yes we really do own recession.com. All my contact information is on there. They can get me at Jonathan@Recession.com or all the infos are on the site if they want to go do that. Recession Readiness Assessment. They'll see all my contact info right at the site. Joe: Excellent. Thanks for your time today Jonathan. I appreciate it. Jonathan: Alright. Rock on. Links and Resources: Recession.com Free Assessment Tool Rock the Recession Ibis World
In the world of e-commerce acquisitions, it is always beneficial to explore a transaction from both the seller and the buyer side. In today's Beard King follow-up episode we bring you part two, the buyer. Raj Patel is a law school dropout who has been an entrepreneur for several years. He started to build Amazon businesses while studying full time. Being and entrepreneur and making more money as a student than he would have if he had followed his original career path led Raj to abandon law for e-commerce. Raj looked at over 35 businesses before pulling the trigger on Beard King, his first sizable acquisition. He is here to give insight into his search criteria, the buying process, and some of the ideas he has to grow his newly acquired business. If you missed Part 1, you can listen to it here. Episode Highlights: Raj's background and how he found success in e-commerce. Why he began moving towards acquiring rather than bootstrapping. The new Amazon third party platform and any impact Raj fears for his businesses. The number of businesses he looked and how the search process played out. Whether any of the other deals explored in-depth came to offers. Why direct calls and face to face time between buyers and sellers is important. Aspects of the Beard King business that attracted Raj despite trends and competition. Raj's retrospective view on what was done right and what lessons he can share from the acquisition. How he boosted his bottom line quickly. What he's now doing to boost the topline. The foreign markets Beard King is focusing on and how Raj chose them. The sources of Raj's experience, how he learns, and how he weeds out useless information. How he interacts with other entrepreneurs on a regular basis to avoid loneliness. How many hours Rajputs into the new business each week. Transcription: Mark: Hey, recently Joe I know that you had Nick from the Beard King on the podcast to talk about selling the Beard King. And today we have part two. You have Raj on who bought the Beard King. Joe: Yeah it's a great follow up. The first one we get to see it from the seller's perspective and then we get to see it from the buyer's perspective. And Raj is pretty impressive. He is a young guy. He's in his mid-20s, a law school dropout that became an entrepreneur. He was going to law school and building Amazon businesses along the way and realized that there was just no way he was going to make as much money in law school with the demands of law school and life in general afterwards as he is as an entrepreneur. And this is the first sizable one that he's purchased and he goes through the process of the hunt for finding the right business, some of the criteria he was looking for, and some of the changes he's going to make to the Beard King to help grow it over the next 12 to 24 months. Mark: Yeah you told me before that he had been looking for quite a while for a business and he looked at was it like 30 or 40 different businesses before he pulled the trigger on this one? Joe: Yeah, exactly. He'd made a couple of offers on other ones that we had listed, it just wasn't in the right place at the right time in order to make it happen. So this one I think is going to work out great. AAs the audience knows that listened to the first one there's a lot of IP around this one with utility patents, design patents, and it's a big reason why Raj jumped on this very quickly. Mark: Very good. Let's get right to it. Joe: Let's go. Joe: Hey folks Joe Valley here from Quiet Light Brokerage and the Quiet Light Podcast. Today I have Raj Patel on the line with me. He bought the Beard King. We had Nick on the podcast last week talking about his exit as a seller and today we've got the buyer. Raj, welcome to the Quiet Light Podcast. Raj: Thanks for having me, Joe. How are you? Joe: I'm good man. But where's the beard? I mean we chatted last week there was a little bit of stubble I was expecting a big bushy beard today; what's going on? Raj: Unfortunately I am not the Beard King. I can't grow a great beard but I do know business though. That's my thing. Joe: You do know business that's for sure and at a young age; we're going to get into that a little bit as well. Why don't you tell everybody listening who you are, what you're all about, what your background is? Raj: Yeah pretty much my name is Raj Patel and I've been doing about e-commerce; it's my 5th year in I would say. And I primarily do Amazon FBA but we do some; I do own a couple of sites as well that we do direct to website sales as well like Shopify and those platforms. But yeah primarily we're doing; about 80% percent of my revenue is coming through Amazon FBA right now and riding this wave of how well e-commerce is really doing and this market is just exploding right now. Joe: And if I recall from our conversations you're 25 years old and were on the path to becoming attorney and said I can't do that, I'm not going to make enough money. I want to be independent, I want to be an entrepreneur and live this life. Is that right? Raj: Right. That's pretty much true. Yeah. Well, I just turned 26. But it was one of those things where I was making more money while I was in school than I would probably make with a job after I graduate. So I was kind of one of those things that didn't quite make any sense for me to continue that path and I was enjoying what I was doing I got to travel. I'm still traveling all the time and I'm kind of reaping the perks and just growing businesses. Joe: How many have you purchased; was Beard King the first actual purchase or were the other 2 or 3 that you might own are purchases as well or did you develop those from scratch? Raj: So I developed 2 from scratch and those are the ones I started with about 4 or 5 years ago when I was experimenting and I still have those 2 today. And I purchased another and then Beard King would be my second purchase. Joe: I got you. Raj: I moved away really now from starting my own businesses because I've accumulated the capital so I'm moving more towards acquisitions and finding the right fit and brand and adding my spin to it and sort of the knowledge that gained in the last 5 years in defying that 3 businesses. Joe: That's interesting you know we've had Walker on a podcast, he wrote Buy Than Build and then Amanda Rob another advisor here at Quiet Light took another approach which is bootstrap, build, and then sell. You've bootstrapped and built too but you're now because you have the capital buying. Do you find it's easier to get ahead when you're buying something because there's revenue that's already being produced or is there; what's the sort of logic between buying now versus taking the time to build? Raj: Right and to me, it's kind of a timeline thing. I've always been sort of aggressive in terms of expanding and it's to a point where if I start my own Amazon business, I'm looking at a year or 2 out before I can really see the return on my money in terms of the marketing, getting trademarks, getting brand registry, doing a whole bunch of things; graphics, creative, getting all that stuff together as well as building the supply chain in China or wherever you're supplying from and it's really a time thing. I know the work that I put into my first 2 businesses and the timeline it took me to get to where it's at now which was it took quite a bit of time and a lot of work while I was obviously doing other things. And now that I have the capital I'm able to skip those 1 to 2 years of just hard work; not hard work but that sort of figuring things out period and get right into the top where I'm already getting a cash flow positive business that I can just keep adding to it really. Joe: Yeah. And if you hadn't started those other businesses you wouldn't have been able to buy the Beard Kind. You wouldn't have gotten capital. So there's no perfect process or method for everyone. You've got to take your own path. It sounds like you took one that definitely worked for you and now you're evolving into a buyer instead of a builder. Raj: And I would say for anybody who's looking to get into it you know it always helps to know kind of what you're doing too. If you have a little experience that's going to help but that learning curve won't be as drastic. So kind of what I know and now that I'm able to pick these businesses I kind of have these 5 years under my belt I can figure out what I generally want and how I can improve the businesses that are out there. So I feel confident purchasing. Joe: So let me grill you with a bunch of questions as a buyer given that you've just gone through the process and on this one in particular. It's mostly an Amazon business at this point it started off non-Amazon, right? Shark Tank, Shopify, things of that nature and now it's mostly an Amazon. As a buyer, as an entrepreneur, how much do you fear the Amazon third party platform and things changing there and having an impact to your business? Raj: Yeah I think that's a pretty big concern for everybody because they're thinking oh well I only have one source of revenue but the truth is if you expand to a whole bunch of different markets on Amazon you're having kind of multiple streams of income. It's not just you had to stick to the US and that's it. People always forget that there is a lot of people in the world and expanding; it's not like you're putting all your eggs in one basket. And the way e-commerce is kind of going is Amazon is kind of just out there killing everybody right now. So it seems like though you have to follow this path and if you continue trending upwards Amazon looks like it's the way to go right now. Joe: So you're comfortable with the risk on Amazon and you don't think it's going away. Raj: I don't think so, no. I still think it's relatively new and the idea that a couple of years ago you can never build a business like this out of nowhere. First, it was always you take it to retail, you build the supply chain and you're talking 2 to 3 years of just negotiation and relationships and now you can build an entire platform, a business in like a matter of 2 to 3 months which is crazy to think. Joe: Yeah. Raj: Things change over time and you kind of have to go with the flow and that's what; this is where it's at. Most of these businesses; Amazon's made it so it's automated for you and you can run these businesses and pretty much just continue to grow it. And whether it be on Amazon's platform or somebody else's or it changes over time you just have to be willing to change with that too. Joe: And when you were on the hunt for a business to buy were you specifically looking for something that was Amazon based or were you looking for anything that was e-commerce physical products and you didn't care what they were selling. Raj: No I did like the Amazon platform just because they allowed me to; I do a lot of other things during the day as well and the one thing about the FBA platform is you can really optimize everything that I don't have to put in 30, 40 hours a week. I can kind of put it on autopilot and set it. But the other main thing was ad spend is getting kind of crazy in terms of running Facebook ads and Google ads and all that stuff. It's kind of getting really expensive and I've been noticing the last 1 or 2 years with the drop-shipping model that really pushed up the cost for acquisitions for these and getting clicks. So I was kind of trying to stay away from that because that was something I couldn't really control. I couldn't really control how much I'm going to spend on ads with Facebook and all that but I could kind of control my supply chain and have a relatively good idea of what my margins would be on Amazon. Joe: I got you. Okay, just out of curiosity how many businesses in total did you look at in the process of finding this one? Talk to us about that process because some people say they've been looking for a long time but they never actually looked at a full package or they've made 9 offers they must be doing something wrong. What was your process? How long you have you been looking and what was your process? Raj: I would say I was looking for a solid 4 to 5 months I would say and I was looking pretty aggressively. Every day I would look at at least any; I was subscribed to every single email list out there whether it be Quiet Light or whatever other brokerage; everything and I contact; I don't just subscribe to a contact list. I've talked to all the brokers and I would look through all the memorandums and all the offering material. I look through from top to bottom because to me I was always learning something in those. It didn't seem like it was a waste of time for me to read an offering material. You kind of learn how people worked their businesses and you can really gain a lot of knowledge just from reading those as well. So it was never like I didn't; I just skimmed them, I read all them and you could see on my; I don't know within half an hour I'd probably have signed up or whatever new businesses out there and getting their offering memorandum. So I would say 4 to 5 months of just aggressively looking for the right fit. Joe: And in that 4 to 5 month period how many; rough estimate how many listings did you look at in detail where you've looked at the full package? Raj: I would say probably more than 40. Joe: Wow. Raj: I'd say 35 to 40. And some of those weren't exactly Amazon FBA because not that many FBA businesses are available as you would think in the market that fast. I mean when I was looking I wouldn't see more than I don't know and in a month maybe 3 or 4 new businesses would pop up that was something different or something that fit my criteria really. Joe: Okay, and of the 35 to 40 that you've looked at how many offers did you make? Raj: 3 to 4 offers I would say I have made on businesses. Joe: Did you two go under LOI on any other businesses and have it fall apart in due diligence or did your offers not get accepted until the Beard King? Raj: Yeah I did actually do one LOI; no actually what happened was I missed it by a day. Another buyer came in and signed the LOI before I signed it and I literally missed it by one day. I flew in in the morning but my offer was late willingly. Joe: Well how do you; in that regard you said that when you look at these packages you have conversations, with all the brokers that you'd have conversations, it sounds like you're building a relationship with them, do you find that building that relationship with a broker advisor that is representing that client helps if you're making a lower offer or justify some sort of offer or did you that no matter what if you made a lowball offer whatever that lowball is that it was received with displeasure and animosity from the broker and the seller? Raj: Right. I would always try to talk to the broker because when you send a lowball offer by email it doesn't seem genuine. I mean lowball offers aren't too genuine anyway. But when I talked to a broker I can sort of tell them this is what I'm thinking this is what the business needs this is what's missing kind of justify why I'm shooting them that offer and it's the starting point for me. It's to get the conversation going. If I see that there's some room to work here it kind of gets me more excited to say okay maybe we can get to the number I have in mind. That's not the number I want but I can meet you somewhere in between just to know that you're able to work. Some sellers will be stuck on a price or as we've seen many times too I know we talked about business before that just shot through the roof and they're asking this they went over asking so I kind of can gauge where the audience is slash what the seller is really thinking. Joe: Yeah, so I think you've gone through the process with me twice because I think you made an offer from one of my listings that had 10 offers if I recall. And I don't recall specifically on that one or not did we do; with the interview with the seller did we do the video call? Raj: We did a video. Joe: We did a video call. Did we do that with Nick or was it just audio? Raj: Just audio with Nick as well. Joe: Okay. So we're doing video now. One of the things that we've done and moved to as often as possible when it's feasible is on that first buyer call; buyer-seller call we will pop on the video as long as everybody's comfortable with it. I felt that it makes a tremendous difference in terms of connecting. You're in one part of the world, the seller's in the other part of the world and you can bridge that gap. And I've been in situations that I'm sure you've heard this or seen it before where being likable kind of makes a bit of a difference in business especially when you're in other parts of the world. Raj: I think one thing I've really noticed is a lot of people with their business that they're selling this is kind of their baby, right? This is something that they've been working on for years and to see somebody that maybe is just looking straight at the bottom line and just wants to buy it and just do whatever they want, seller's don't like that. And they might take a lower offer from somebody who seems genuine in their intentions to grow the business and they have a passion for that business. And definitely, that face to face helps with that. That's for sure. Joe: Yeah. So this particular business it had plenty of interested parties. You kind of stepped up and got the ball rolling with Nick and went under a letter of intent. It's got what? Two utility patents, two design patents, multiple copyrights. I haven't seen a whole lot of businesses like that in my 7 years of advising with Quiet Light. The drawback or the downfall of this particular business I think was the trends. I think you've got a heck of a value given all of the IP protection that it has, the way that the revenue took off right before closing you almost ran out of inventory because things took off because of the Amazon patent protection program. In your searches were you specifically looking for something with this kind of IP or were you just looking for something with great trends that you thought you could handle and take over? Raj: Yeah. So I was looking for something that had some kind of; something that was proprietary about it and IP is always great because another way to collect and another source of revenue is to enforce the IP and it kind of takes away these competitors. And the one thing I was seeing with business was there were a lot of competitors at the time if you recall and the IP had just gone through. So it's one of these things where I kind of was excited to get in there and start taking off these competitors. And as you saw right before a whole bunch of the competitors got knocked off the platform and the sales they shot through the roof. So that got me even more excited to say well this is just the beginning, right? Joe: Yeah. If I recall we had a conversation and it was there's a possibility he might run out of revenue; out of inventory. Raj: Actually he did run out of inventory. Joe: Prior to closing? Raj: Prior to closing we went about 2 to 3 days; nothing is in it there but 2 to 3 days. Joe: But we waited to close. The goal was to no matter what we were going to close after inventory is in stock. Raj: Exactly, yeah. Joe: Talk to me about your review now that you've had the business for 3 or 4 months. Looking back you've looked at 40 different businesses, a lot of different brands, what was done right with this business and what lesson can you share that maybe was done wrong in terms of this particular business? And I don't want you to throw Nick under the bus. I think he did an amazing job with the brand. Raj: Yeah, 100%. I think that Nick has done an amazing job to start off with the marketing side. Joe: Yeah. Raj: What Nick has built-in terms of marketing and he has a real keen eye for how to put that vision out there and represent the product in a way that it's appealing to everyone. Also, he invented the idea too which is something that we don't really think of too much, right? Joe: We all come up with great ideas. He actually followed through and got it done. Raj: Right. Yeah, he came up with the idea and then he made such a great marketing plan and if you look at how well the website is made, how well the quality of the product is, everything is impeccable that he's done. I think that was really his strength just how well he executed on the marketing side of things. Joe: And what do you think the weaknesses of the business were in the months ahead of you taking it over or the 12 months ahead of you taking over? Raj: Yeah so what I kind of look the weakness is we're really just cleaning up the logistics of the business. I saw that there was a lot of money kind of left on the table in terms of the cost of goods was way too much when I was looking at the business and that's when I was already in talks with my own suppliers and everything figuring out like hey we can drastically reduce the price and t explode the bottom line really and get this business; make it extremely profitable from what it is. That was kind of the icing on the cake because I was able to; as you know with this business when we look at the numbers it was kind of like you had to kind of dig deep to figure out where everything exactly was. And by doing that and like you said reading the offering material I was able to figure out like if I clean up the logistics I will easily make this business extremely more profitable than it was. Joe: So you worked with a manufacturer to modify; did you modify the product or just found a manufacturer cheaper, less expensive, same quality? Raj: Manufacturer cheaper, same quality, I haven't even; I'm considering modifying it a little bit but the price point I have without changing anything I just knocked up 80% of the value which is crazy. I mean everything that happened off the product… Joe: Percent of the cost of goods sold? Raj: Cost of goods sold off of the product. Joe: Can you put that into dollars? Raj: Sure. Right now I'm paying; how much the cost of goods is right now? Joe: Don't talk about how much you're paying, how much did; well I guess people will figure out the math here and we have to…if you tell me edit after this I'll edit and if you're all hearing me say the word edit then we chose not to. What I'm trying to figure out is a lot of people think about how to drive more revenue and you've got a unique approach which is how do we actually maximize the bottom line? I know now that I'm an entrepreneur buyer that the value of this business is a multiple of the trailing 12 months; the discretionary earnings. So did you save $2 a unit times 100 units a month that you're selling or what kind of immediate boost do you see to the bottom line inaudible[00:20:25.5] negotiations? Raj: I've saved say $6 a unit. Joe: Holy cow. Raj: Yeah. Joe: Holy cow. That's tremendous. Raj: And it wasn't just the cost of goods it was also the method of shipping; that was a big deal. Joe: That's right. You've got the capital to do freight versus doing just in time airship inaudible[00:20:44.2] right? Raj: I had the cash flow to lock up for a month or 2; that's okay with me but when I can take that much off the bottom line that's definitely winning. Joe: That's amazing. What are you doing to boost the top line? You just said most people focus on the top line instead of the bottom you're doing the smart thing but now tell me what you're doing for the top line? Raj: Sales fix everything at the end of the day; sales fix everything. You know the logistics thing the reason I started with that first was that was a quick fix. That's something that you could do instantly. Improving the top line, now that might require a little bit of money, a little bit of tweaking, some marketing, and what we've done with that is really expanding and being aggressive with opening up in all different marketplaces; Canada, Australia, UK, Germany. I just kind of hit the ground running with those in the works of launching in all those different countries. Joe: Really? Raj: That's what we're working on now and sending inventory over there figuring out the VAT stuff and all that stuff I've done before is just kind of even as we talk some country is only going to see maybe 5 to 10% increase in sales but it's still 5 to 10%. It still adds to the bottom line and still, you're leaving money still on the table and you don't want to do that and so that's what we've been focusing on right now. Joe: And how did you choose those countries just out of curiosity? What kind of research did you do or is it just countries that you're comfortable with and you've done it before? Raj: I've done it before and as well as I did a little research on the European ones because as you know it's a little expensive to open up the VAT and all that stuff if you're not choosing but working with other sellers and the experience I know kind of what countries do really well. If you have a North America Amazon plan you can easily open up in Mexico and Canada within like an hour. It's not anything. The listings get sent over and it's not a lengthy process. I just had to send the inventory. Joe: Did you have to translate the Mexico ads and everything? Raj: Oh yeah, you have to translate it. They have the translator on there and then you had to run through each of the listings as well because even when they get sent over the listings get converted they don't end up being right anyway so you kind of have to inaudible[00:22:52.8] anyway. Joe: I got you. Okay, maybe we can do an update in a year to talk about how those international markets went and what kind of additional revenue it was driving. Let's talk about how you've learned to do what you've accomplished here. Are you tuning into podcasts, did you go through any training programs, what is the source of your experience; who do you listen to, what do you read that kind of thing? Raj: I'm kind of a simple guy in the sense that I really listen to what Amazon puts out there too. They haven't tons of seller university information which is great but when I started watching YouTube videos here and there kind of helps. I never paid for a course or anything like that because I kind of learn by trial and error. I don't think you need a course per se but you're going to make a lot more mistakes if you don't have a clear path to follow. There's a lot of information. I would say it's not really too useful for people or kind of misleading out there too. So it's kind of hard to find. But using Amazon's material and just going to trial and error. I'd say your first product is not going to always work. And I think people are under the impression that if they buy a course and they do this that this is a home run; it's not like that. It's trial and error really. Joe: Okay, so you're doing your own research; watching, reading Amazon stuff and what they put out versus paying for courses and programs and going to events and things of that nature. I just had a call this morning with somebody that is like Nick he's 12 months after selling his own business and one of the big reasons he sold was he felt isolated. It was growing and there was risk but he felt isolated and alone. And he did the same thing. He didn't have a Mastermind group or anything like that. How do you overcome that? Do you have friends and colleagues that are also Amazon sellers that you talk with? How does that work in your life? Raj: I'm in contact with a ton of people that we talk almost every day about what we're doing and say oh you know international sellers and see how they're getting what they're doing on Amazon. So they are mass; I'm not part of a thousand, 2,000 group mastermind group but I am part of groups where big power sellers kind of talk to each other and figure out what's going, what's working, these new changes Amazon's made. So we do talk about that every other day. Joe: Okay, and how many hours a week are you putting in on Amazon altogether or Beard King all together? Raj: Beard King? Joe: Sure. Raj: Beard King by itself I would say I'm putting in about 15 hours right now. Joe: A week? Raj: Yeah. Joe: And you're making more money than most people make when they do graduate from law school. I think you've chosen the right path here. Raj: Yeah I think I'm onto something for a while now so I'm happy with the outcome and grateful for everything. Joe: Well look, you did the work, you took the risk, you were in school and focused on building your own businesses as well. You studied up. You took the risk. You worked hard. The harder you worked the luckier you got. And here you are today buying a business with something very rare; a great IP and whole lot of protection with a lot of growth potential ahead of it. It's growing in the bottom line which is fantastic the way that you're renegotiated cost of goods sold and shipping. I'm excited to hear what it does over the next 6 to 12 months for the expansion to the other countries and some other focus. Raj: Q4 is coming up and we're super excited it's about; we're already up all across the board in revenues and it's just about to take off now so it's in the interesting lap in the next couple of months. Joe: That's great. Let's get every man in America growing a beard and using the Beard King products. Raj: That's the dream. Joe: You've got to do it too though you've got to grow that beard. Raj: Yeah I'm going to try. It's a patchy beard but I'll work on it. Joe: For anybody that does get over to the Quiet Light YouTube channel. I think it's Quiet Light Academy now. You've got to take a look at Nick's beard versus Raj's beard and my beard. You and I Raj are pretty pathetic. We don't have much to go on at all. Raj: Nick got a crazy beard though. Joe: Absolutely. Well, listen it's been great. I appreciate you sharing your story. What you've accomplished is pretty damn impressive and I'm excited to hear what happens over the next 12 months. How can people learn about what you're doing or reach out to you? Raj: Well you can find me on YouTube at Raj Patel and I'm going to be pretty much talking about everything from selling on Amazon to how to launch your product as well as just telling stories of what I've done over the last year that's worked for me and putting some information out there that people can use in whatever they're trying to accomplish by selling online and to learn sort of what I've done and help them out pretty much. So you can check me out at Raj Patel on YouTube. Joe: Alright and everybody watching we'll be expecting you to grow a beard as well or at least have a fake one on now and then Raj Patel at YouTube.com. Raj: Yeah, inaudible[00:27:43.3] progress made. Joe: Alright, perfect. All right man thanks for your time today. I appreciate it. Raj: No problem, thank you, Joe. Links and Resources: TheBeardking Youtube
In the second installment of our Incredible Exits series, we welcome Mike Jackness back to the podcast. Mike, one of our favorite guests, is here discussing the recent sale of his online business, ColorIt. Mike is a lifelong entrepreneur and hosts a podcast with a 30k listener following. On his show, he talks all things about e-commerce, email marketing, and Amazon. Mike's decision to sell this particular business was based not on struggling to grow it, but simply on the the need to offload something from his plate. He was well aware of what he'd done to grow it, and the potential for its future growth, he simply knew it was time to hand over the reins. We wanted to have Mike on to tell us firsthand how that process went, the challenges he faced, and how he eventually reached multiple offers. He shares some of the key things he did to get the business sold at 96% of the list price. We discuss how some acquisitions don't go as smoothly as others, even for someone who seems to have a great grip on how to grow and eventually sell an online business. Ths episode chronicles the sale and buying process: what Mike has done right and what he would change if he could. Episode Highlights: We hear about Mike's journey as an entrepreneur and what led him to start the Ecomcrew podcast. The factors that led him to sell one of his e-commerce businesses. Mike talks us through the 10 risk factors to take into account for e-commerce success. How Amazon can be the judge and jury when it comes to keeping your e-commerce business alive. The one thing he would go back and do differently in the transaction. The importance of planning in advance for an easier buyer transition. Why some entrepreneurs get caught up in the squirrel syndrome and often find that as they take on too much they run into trouble. Mike takes us through the launch process and how we got to the multiple with the right buyer. The importance of instilling confidence in the buyer. The inventory issue specific to this brand and how that affected the sale. Why one can't plan the perfect inventory in e-commerce business. How to find middle ground on the inventory excess in the sale and acquiescing when necessary. Why the seller makes all the difference in the sellability of the business. The way a seller should act under any circumstances. Transcription: Mark: Joe you got to have one of our favorite podcast guests on; Mike Jackness. And Mike actually retained you or hired you to help sell one of his properties. And we get to do another episode … is this part of our Amazing Acquisitions? I don't know … our Amazing Exits I'm sorry. Joe: Incredible Exits, come on Mark get it right. Mark: My goodness, I made it up. It's a good— Joe: I don't even know what it's called. Somebody's going to tell me there's a certain term for things that flow off the tongue very well … incredible. Mark: It's almost as if I'm not paying attention to what you're doing at all. You got to have him on the podcast about selling his business. Joe: Indeed. Mark: I'd like to know about it. Joe: You know he's just an awesome human being and that made selling his business and the person buying it that more excited about it. Look, Mike is an influencer. He has a podcast where he's got 30,000 people listening to him every month and he talks about e-commerce and email marketing and Amazon. We had challenges because people are like well if Mike Jackness isn't killing it with this I don't know if I can do any better. But the reality was Mike was just simply chasing too many rabbits as he says. He had four brands inside of one seller account. He has the podcast and he has other projects going on. So he wasn't giving his full attention to this. So really the reason I wanted to have him on was to have people hear from him some of his … well-known and an influencer much larger audience in his podcast than we have what he was doing wrong. If he could go back and do it all over again how he would have changed things so that it would have been an easier process for him and we would have had … we had multiple offers but would have had a much easier process in reaching those multiple offers. And some of the key differences that he did to seal the deal. He didn't do it to seal the deal, he was just doing it anyway and it is what sealed the deal and got us under LOI at 96% of the list price. Mark: Yeah you know one of the most popular articles that I wrote on our blog back when I was doing all the blogging on Quiet Light Brokerage was the story of my own process of buying a business and in my own estimation failing at it. And frankly, as the founder of Quiet Light, it's kind of humbling to go out there and say yup I made an acquisition I completely failed but here is why. And I got so much good feedback from that saying this is great thank you for sharing these details because it really helps. So hearing from someone like Mike Jackness and his episode that you did with him is probably my favorite episode that we have that I've listened to. I don't listen to my own episodes which is why they aren't like [inaudible 00:03:51.2]. That episode from Mike Jackness in all seriousness he talks about email marketing and how he does email marketing. That's fantastic so if you haven't listened to it, go back and listen to it. It would be interesting to hear what he had as far as his own self-assessment when it comes to selling his business and some of the struggles that he had as well. And I think it might be encouraging for those of us that are out there like how are these guys doing all of it because we only hear about the successes, right? Joe: Yeah. There are challenges in here and I was … my initial plan was to do a two part series but we managed to get it all in. It's a little long folks. It's about 45 minutes or so and then the plan is to do a follow up episode about due diligence, closing, transition, and training. We may even have the buyer on and have all three of us on the podcast. Mark: It's 45 minutes? Joe: Yes. Mark: Well, I should shut up. We should get to it. Joe: Let's go to it. Joe: Hey, folks Joe Valley here from Quiet Light Brokerage and today I've got somebody that's been on before; Michael Jackness from EcomCrew. Welcome to the Quiet Light Podcast. Mike: Welcome back. Joe: Welcome back is right. You actually inspired this type of episode as I said before we recorded. Folks Mike has … when he was on before he shared his expertise on email marketing and the use of Klaviyo. Today he's actually going to be our first exit entrepreneur or Incredible Exits guest. Mike decided to list his business for sale last December. We talked about it. We got it listed. And now we're under Letter Of Intent. We're recording this on February 12th and we wanted to share Mike's direct experience so that you hear it … hear about the process, and what you should do right, what you've done right and what you do wrong, and hear from somebody other than me. Mike has been through it. He's got an audience of 30,000 that listens on a monthly basis at EcomCrew. If you're not listening to EcomCrew … I know I'm promoting another podcast but it's one of the absolute best out there. Go to EcomCrew.com they're always helping entrepreneurs in the e-commerce space. So Michael Jackness, 30 seconds just tell some folks who you are again for those that didn't listen to the first episode that we did together. Mike: I'm basically a serial entrepreneur. I started my first business when I was a kid. I did have a stint for seven years in corporate life. One of my clients did hire me but for the last 15 years, I've been doing my own thing either in affiliate marketing or e-commerce lest the 5 plus years. And when I got on e-commerce I realized that we were coming at things a little bit differently. We kind of got at it as a tech company rather than a product company. And we realized we had a lot to share. So the entire process pretty much; as you mentioned EcomCrew, even blogging, and podcasting, and telling the world about what we've been doing. But one of the things that make us unique is we also talk about all the negatives not just the positive sunshine blue smoke up your ass crap. In fact we go out of our way to talk about some of the hardships of running a business and specifically e-commerce. So yeah that's a 10,000 foot view. Joe: And in just about 30 seconds; so thanks. Yeah, I get it, I can't emphasize enough. If you are a current e-commerce owner you should listen EcomCrew as well especially the Under the Hood series that I enjoy so much and inspired the Incredible Exit series here at Quiet Light. All right Mike at one point, you came to me. You reached out I think probably around Thanksgiving or so and said you wanted to exit. Did you plan that well in advance or did you just find yourself tired and ready to move on? Mike: Yeah, there were a ton of factors that went into that initial conversation. We had a different plan. I can tell you what. We'll talk a little bit about that but the plan was to do this a little bit longer. But I actually just did a podcast about risk factors in e-commerce and we don't have 30 minutes to go over the entire episode but there were 10 risk factors that I called out. Which basically were like the amount of inventory that you have, tariffs, taxes … just kind of like a risk to reward type of thing, competition, Amazon getting involved in brands, Amazon shutting your account down, getting unbalanced to be more Amazon than not off Amazon things of this nature. And for me what I realized … I started waking up one day realizing that for us this stuff they've kind of gone a little bit out of balance. We're at a point right now as we're doing this podcast because I haven't quite done the exit yet where we have $1.3 million in inventory total company wide as we've been growing. As you know in e-commerce it's hard to get any money out of your business because we are growing it 100% per year and it's a situation where money just keeps on piling back in the business. You have a tax bill every year and without the money to even pay for that because you're plowing everything back in the inventory for growth. And we have been running at that speed for almost four years. And because of some of those other risk factors, the kind of leverage is changing a little bit. I felt like it was time that we needed to take some chips off the table. And combining that with just honestly being a little burned out; running at that speed is definitely exhausting. I found myself either dreaming about Amazon shutting my account down or waking up every morning first thing and checking my inbox and seeing if they had been shut down. Not because we do anything black hat at all but because I see things that happen out there because of EcomCrew and also [inaudible 00:09:05.1]. You hear stories of people that legitimately didn't do anything wrong but it doesn't matter because Amazon can be the judge and jury and executioner all in one. And factoring all these different things in it just … it felt like it was time. And we didn't know it when I had that initial conversation with you. I didn't know exactly what that was going to look like. At one time we had talked about selling everything. I was kind of like just in a bit of bad mood that day and then we kind of start walking through some more realistic and better options to kind of end up [inaudible 00:09:35.9]. Joe: Yeah, let's talk about that the realistic option of selling everything I have things or setup because I really want people to learn from this process and what your goals were and the challenges that we've had and some of the amazing things that you have done throughout the process as well. So the first thing we looked at was selling all four of the brands that you have. You have it under one LLC and two of the brands are doing very, very well. And two of the brands are start up brands where they're really working at a loss because you have a tendency to just focus on organic traffic and brand recognition for a series of months to a year and don't mind operating at a lost. First and foremost Mark had a podcast with somebody from a PE firm that painted this picture. He said the thing about private equity investors is … well, think about it when you were a kid. And he says you get a bag of marbles from and you try to negotiate a deal with your buddy for the bag of marbles. The first thing you want to do is reach into that bag of marbles and take out all the chipped ones. You don't want to buy the chipped marbles. And then you want to focus on the best marbles. And so when looking at your four brands, two of them were really operating at a loss so my advice right away was let's take those out of the picture. Because when you're selling a business let's say at a three time multiple and you have two brands in the bag and they're both operating at let's say negative $10,000 in discretionary earnings; that's $20,000 times three that's $60,000 off the list price of your business if you go with the multiple of discretionary earnings valuation model which is what we do in marketplace valuations. So we had to pull those two out. And then we looked at what at the time was one of the larger brands of the two. We've got ColorIt that we've talked about. We've talked about it openly and you've done presentations all over the world on your email marketing campaigns with Klaviyo and ColorIt. But the other one, different space, and we had a challenge. See one of the things that we talk about all the time are the 4 pillars of sellable businesses; age, documentation, growth, transferability. And the big thing that we had a problem there was the transferability of that particular brand. Two of the SKUs that you had which were not the largest used by any stretch, you were reselling those, right? And you reached out to your vendor to confirm that you could transfer those and what did they say? Mike: They said no. Joe: Simple as that. So that takes away one of the pillars. It makes it more complicated. But again as you said you were in a bad mood that day that we talked. A lot of emotions in selling your business and as you say in the introduction that we did for ColorIt, you've been chasing too many rabbits. When you're doing that you're getting tired, exhausted, and pulled into many different directions and often going nowhere. So we ended up setting that one aside as well and focused only on ColorIt and went with that to launch. Before we get into the initial launch multiple and things that we found that were really amazing about it we found one more challenge or maybe two. You have one LLC with all four brands under one LLC and all four brands in one seller account. What have you done since our initial conversations back in late November early December to rectify that? Mike: Let me kind of set the stage just real quick of why we got there as well because it's interesting in business. There's two phenomena that is existing, first of all, I've been in business for 15 years so I kind of knew some of the hiccups and roadblocks we might get into down the road. But I had run multiple businesses in the past. So whenever you do something and you don't like it you tend to correct for that in another way in a future endeavor whether it's a business or in personal life. And the thought of like having … we actually have more than four things going through this LLC, there are other non e-commerce stuff and some other things as well. And the thought of having six or seven different tax returns and credit cards for each business and trying to figure out how we're going to separate employees or like the lease or back in software like Skubana or you know a UPS count; all these different things like having to have them all segmented out just was not appealing to me in any way shape or form. And I was more concerned about today than tomorrow as far as operating the business. And I also had this thought process of when I'm ready to get out of e-commerce I'm going to get rid of all of it once. I'm a pretty binary kind of guy like I'm either all in or not doing it. And I thought the day that … when it came that we would get out of e-commerce we would just sell that conglomerate. But life happens and business happens and like I said some of these risk factors changed and the reality was that we wanted to pivot and change our philosophy and our business plan pretty quickly. I equate this also to like when you want to pay taxes you want to have your business show the lowest amount of money. You're trying to figure out any expense you can have. That's really good for a tax but when you go to apply for a loan it better be showing lots of income. So it's like … it's a similar kind of phenomenon where like in one part it makes sense to do one thing but in another … on the other side, it makes sense to do another. So we were kind of at that spot where it was obvious that this was going to be a problem because the things that came up in the calls over and over again were really two things. Number one shared resources of employees or other resources which I understand the challenge there. And also the fact that everything's in this one Amazon account. And let me tell you man if there was anything I can go back and do differently it would be having multiple Amazon accounts at a much earlier stage. The challenge is Amazon doesn't make this easy. They won't allow you to just create multiple accounts first of all without getting permission. And in order to get permission, you have to have a separate company. You have to have a separate … either separate ownership structure, separate EIN, separate checking account, separate credit card. All this stuff has to be 100% separated out in order for them to grant you permission to create another Amazon account. So we are going through that now and I mean what a disaster. Like we're having to … we're trying to close within about six weeks of recording this. And to hand over the account at closing we have to have just Brand A which is going to be ColorIt and the Amazon account and Brand C or B, C, D have to be out of the Amazon account and in a new account and it has to happen as seamlessly as possible which is impossible because we're … we only have inventory in Amazon. All of our inventory is on Amazon. So we're having to recall some of it and relabel it, get it into the other account. And we keep a relatively [inaudible 00:16:34.1] amount of stuff in Amazon so it's not … looking on a SKU by SKU basis it isn't that big of a deal but because we're a high seven figure seller total we're recalling truckloads with the goods from Amazon. It's not going to be cheap and when you recall stuff it gets damaged a lot of times. The stuff shows up and looks used by the time that … you're shipping it in and it's getting … someone's handling it and putting it on the shelf and they got to go take it off the shelf put it in another box and crate and when you recall stuff it doesn't come back in the best of shape. So yeah I mean it's kind of a disaster all around but this is what we've had to do to get to where we are. And moving forward they all are all going to be in separate companies. So at any point when the time comes to put Business B up for sale, we'll have it all in one clear concise company; one account and we'll just pull the trigger and be done. Joe: You know I think you had said at one point you knew what to do and you had one plan and it was to sell the entity and all the brands within it at one time. And then we found three stumbling blocks. Two of them were operating at a loss because you are focused on organic traffic and brand building. And one where two of the vendors said: “yeah no, we like you, Mike, we don't know anybody else we're not going to do this deal with anyone else”. So you ran into challenges there. And you also said if you have to make those changes someday you'll do that. And all of a sudden you woke up and someday was here and we had an action that we wanted to take right away whereas the idea of I always say don't decide to sell which is eventually you do decide to sell but plan to sell. So my little slogan there doesn't actually work all that well. But seriously though I think the thing to do is to plan it out in advance as much as possible to make it strangely enough as easy and seamless as possible for the buyer. For that person that is going to put a million dollars of their life savings on the line or two or three or 100,000. The amount doesn't matter. It's a lot of money for the person that stroking the check or sending the wire. So that's the key thing. Mike: Can I just … I want to mention one other thing if you don't mind? [inaudible 00:18:48.4] this thing. Joe: Yeah. Mike: You're asking just kind of like some of the other things that kind went wrong and we could've done better. This is stuff that's often not talked about again in entrepreneurship but the reality is is that it would have been better just to have one brand and focus on it or maybe two rather than trying to do too many things at once which is a trap that a lot of entrepreneurs get caught in. Something I tell myself all the time, I even had it in writing on a blog post like eight years ago like I won't do that again; get into too many things. Entrepreneurs are different … there are different classes of entrepreneurs but the kind of entrepreneur that I am it's the squirrel syndrome. It's always exciting to do something new rather than what you're working on. I get bored really easily. To me, the business aspects are way less about the money than the personal enjoyment and excitement part of it. And oftentimes you end up with this … you chase rabbits both will get away saying that I use all the time. But I give that advice and don't follow it as well as I should. So that's another thing that you could really take away from this if your … the existing business you have is probably the best one that you have, the same type of thing with a car like the cheapest car that you'll ever have is the one that you own right now. You are then going on and buying a new one. Or any of these types of things can be applied to other aspects of your life as well. But if you are focused on one company like you typically have all your T's crossed and I's dotted and that's how I like to run my companies because I am a bit of a perfectionist. But as you spread your resources across multiple businesses things like to fall through the cracks that make things less attractive to a buyer. And the reality is is it's not as easy as it should be to just cookie cutter your business into another one. We had a really great podcast about this a year and a half ago. It was actually something we recorded live at E-commerce Fuel Live last year back in Gohana. So I just want to throw those things out as well as just other things that to be thinking about. As you're planning your exit you should be a lot of times it's … well, I want to get in this other thing or as you're growing it's really exciting and it's infectious and you want to keep on that path because it's fun to tell everybody how fast you're growing. And everyone pats you in the back and society makes things even worse because they're always like yeah man good job and everybody is like oh good job you only grew by 5% last year because that's just how we're all wired. Which the reality is that as Dave my partner always says is that revenues are vanity and profits are sanity. Joe: Yeah. Now I love that again this is … I want people to hear from you more than me. I say his stuff all the time and you're someone that's going through it right now and coaches thousands of people on a regular basis to improve their businesses and Dave as well. The other thing that is separating out the brands and separating out the LLC does for you the seller and the potential buyer is it casts a broader net of potential buyers. And the broader the net the more interest level there is going to be in the business. And the more interest level the more likely you're going to get an offer at or close to list price. And in this case we did not say SBA prequalified, technically you can take a business like yours and go through the process and have your accountant separate all those things out and certify it. It's not a full audit and you could try to go through the process and make it SBA prequalified. But in the time frame that you and I were trying to do this, you wanted to be under Letter Of Intent by January 31st. It didn't happen. We came close but we couldn't have gone through that process because that process would have taken six to eight weeks for your attorney to do it. And given the time of year, it might have taken longer because he's in full on tax preparation now. So that's the other thing that separating out your LLC's by brand will do for you is that when you wake up one day and you want to exit it's clean, it's simple and you can do that with a lot less work. And that work Mike we … it was a lot of work in preparing the listing for sale. In the Profit & Loss statements and then in that client interview everybody's heard about it … I told my wife when I sold my business I felt like I was working harder preparing the business for sale and going through the process of getting it sold than I was actually running it. And when I was running my own I was working about 20 hours a week running the business so that tells you what that workload is like. In terms of what we did, I want to talk a little bit about the launch process and talk about the multiples and some of the things we did but you did it just absolutely right spot on. We did go out a little early the right? We talked in late November early, early December and you had a goal and I wanted to help you achieve that goal. I'm human and I think that what I probably should have done in hindsight is said no, this is probably not the best approach. We went out in I think around the 10th of December, listed the business at a pretty strong multiple. It was at a four time multiple. And went out and said Look December is going to be great. Trust us these numbers will drop to a 3.5 once the December numbers are read. And the ultimate answer we got was cool, I think I'll just wait to see if that's true. So we've got a … I think we had a phone call, maybe we had one buyer seller conference call in the month of December and then you're a man of your word and you like to under promise and over deliver. And when December numbers came in they were up 80% year over year. Mike: Yeah. Joe: I've used this analogy with a lot of folks before and they've heard me say this again you can list something at a four time multiple and if it's growing 25% year over year consistently the buyer earns their money back in 2.7 years. I did not do the math on 80% and I won't but that really got people off the fence a little bit. We updated the P&L's, got the December P&L's and then we're relaunching I think on January 8th, 9th, or 10th, in and around there. And we actually dropped the price by $75,000 too. So the multiple didn't drop to just a 3.5 it dropped to a 3.2 multiple and we relaunched. And I think we had three or four phone calls out of the gate. The goal is to have three to five in the first 30 to 45 days and one acceptable offer. We did have just two offers in this case and one was just not there. We had two or three phone calls with them. One was interesting, right? I was traveling to Dallas so I'm on a conference call with Mike and the buyer and I'm actually going through TSA security on the conference call. And thankfully Mike can talk folks. So he was talking as I put my headset down and went through security. I picked it up on the other end and you were still talking. And you had a terrible cold. Mike: Yeah, that was a pretty embarrassing call. Joe: It was great though and the thing that you do so incredibly well is you instill confidence in the buyers. You're honest. People trust you. And it made them … anybody that had the opportunity to talk with you I think wanted to make an offer if they could pull it together. But we couldn't do an SBA buyer because of that commingling issue so we were focused primarily on cash buyers. Keep in mind though that not all SBA buyers don't have the cash. Many of them do they just prefer to make their money go further with an SBA loan. So I think we were both at ECF, that's E-commerce Fuel, at the event down in New Orleans and I drove you nuts a few times saying I think I may have an offer right? Did I—? Mike: It was so funny, you texted me at the opening party I think I have an offer and then you went to bed. I think like you didn't actually have the offer yet I just think I read the text a little long but … so I was like walking around the entire thing looking like anybody know where Joe Valley is? Like I want to know where Joe Valley is. Joe: Yeah, I think I heard somebody say Joe likes to go to bed early. He doesn't stay up late at these events. He's probably in bed. And that … I felt a little embarrassed there. I'm like okay I'm getting a reputation for going bed by nine. But we ended up not going under LOI— Mike: [inaudible 00:27:07.7] morning than I did. Joe: I think I probably did. I was really hopeful that we could go under LOI while at E-commerce Fuel because that would be a great feather in your cap and mine. We would be able to have a drink there and celebrate. But it didn't quite work. It took an extra … probably four or five days. But we had some challenges with the business. We ended up getting fairly close and I'll do the math as you answer this next question in terms of that asking price; that 3.2 multiple. But we had some challenges and the big challenge was something you talked about earlier. One of these big issues that you've got is you're taking all the profits from the business and putting it back into inventory. And when you have a business that's growing at the rate that yours was that's a lot of inventory. Can you talk about that a little bit in terms of the challenges that we had there? Mike: With inventory specifically in terms with ColorIt? Joe: Yes. Mike: Yeah. And this is something that we have worked really hard on in our business and we're very [inaudible 00:28:06.7] which is that you basically want as little inventory as humanly possible at all times. I mean you don't … there's a lot of reasons for this. If you have too much inventory when something goes wrong like you're stuck with a hot potato. That always sucks but probably more importantly especially when you're in this growth phase is cash flow is the most important thing. There's this saying that's been around forever which is cash is king and there's a reason for this; for every dollar that you have an excess inventory that's a dollar that you don't have in some new product … some new product launch or some other thing that can make you more money. And every inventory business is going to go through this. There is no inventory business I think on earth that … especially when it's newer and growing at this speed that can plan inventory perfectly all the time. Either you're going to err on the side of caution of not having too much inventory and be willing to run out of SKUs because of that. Or you're going to err on the side of caution of having too much inventory and err on the side of caution of never running out of a SKU. And for me, we went with the latter because in the early days of selling on Amazon we realize that when you run out of stuff it can be really detrimental. We had one SKU that we still are trying to recover from. It's a part of this issue here with this business sale we're now we have too much inventory because we could never get it to recover back to the point where it was before. So we try to in our inventory business turn our inventory three to four times a year which means that you should have no more than three to four months of inventory at any one time. And with ColorIt that was definitely not the case. So it was not the case. I mean there's a bunch of different exceptions that put things way further out than that but there was an old legacy book manufacturer that we work with that had very high MOQ's. So if we wanted to even sell the item we had to order a year worth of it at one time. And that was a decision that we made in Q2. We had a newer product that we just started selling and it was selling really well so we've ordered more of it and again at their MOQ so we have more than 4 months of inventory there. And so the bottom line was that of the 300 … actually it was $400,000 in total inventory that we have for ColorIt both from stuff that's in stock and things that we had already placed orders for that haven't shown up yet. There was about 100 … I don't have the numbers in front of me but $100,000-ish I think of inventory that that would take longer than 12 months to sell. And so for me because I've been on both sides of the fence as both a buyer and seller of businesses and I really believe living life like don't ask others or don't do what you want to do yourself, I realize that before we even start talking to the buyer that we probably have to make some sort of concession on the inventory. It just would be unrealistic to just be like no you're going to the inventory and too bad because I wouldn't feel comfortable doing that myself. The other thing that I don't like doing is like having someone pay me with my money. So that one thing I was steadfast about was that we're not going to take financing or delay the purchase price. I want an all cash offer for the for the purchase price but the inventory component I thought the right thing to do was to pretty quickly acquiesce and come into a middle ground with a buyer. So what we had agreed to do was, first of all, there was one SKU that I admit that just doesn't sell well. It was a bad buy on us. We just rid it off 100%. It's about $8,000 dollars. They can either … they were in a trash can if they want to transfer or they can keep it and do whatever they want with. There were a couple of SKUs that I kind of conceded to that were slower movers that I felt like was going to be kind of detrimental to their business to buy at with 24 months with the inventory at face value. So what we agreed to was we'll sell you anything that we think is going take longer than 12 months within that inventory at a 50% haircut. We'll just write off half of it and you can buy it for 50% off. So now you … yes, you carrying more inventory but you're buying it at a price that makes sense to carry it. And then the third group of SKUs were things that were basically like in this 12 to 18 month window, they weren't really that low for stock, and the biggest culprit of that was this new item that we're trending higher on. So I think ultimately and I convinced the buyer ultimately especially once the Christmas season comes they aren't going to have … they aren't going to actually have more than 12 months with the inventory. So we agreed that even though our forecast shows it's going to take more than 12 months to sell it's because we were using like a January sales number for that we weren't including sales growth in that forecast and we also weren't including what I believe that was going to happen in December which is December is about 3X any other month in our business. So ultimately we wrote off $40,000 with the inventory and agree to give them 12 months financing on the inventory at 5% interest which basically I think helps normalize that situation for them. And it's also something that I can tolerate as well. Joe: Yeah, and it happened and then we succeeded with it A. because of you; the likability and trust factor. But you have something that I preach again and that's when you've got an inventory based business you should have inventory aging reports. Sophisticated buyers are going to ask for them and they're going to want to see the inventory by SKU when you bought the inventory and how old it is, how many months you've got. As Mike said you want to turn your inventory every three to four months if you can but in his situation, it was 9, 12, 18 months in some rare instances. And so on that inventory report one of the key things that your buyer Matt said that made a difference for him in sealing the steel and getting it done was the inventory aging report and the notes that you put by each SKU and right there in one of them you said this is all inventory and it's not going to sell so we'll write this off. You just acquiesced on that 8,000. He didn't ask for it. You just put it in there because you knew it was the right thing to do. And then you went line by line on every other SKU and justified the 100% value or where you needed to discount. And let me just say for everybody listening, it is rare to need to take a note on inventory. It's rare to have to discount it. But when you've got that much you've got to do the right thing. What I don't want to happen here is for buyers to go “oh well hey Jackness took a note, I'm always going to ask for a note” because that's really, really the exception rather— Mike: Like I wouldn't do that with IceWraps for instance because there's … if we were to sell that we have four months with inventory. It's really clean and smooth. It's a more established business with fewer SKUs. It doesn't have a lot of the other things that cause us to have extra inventory. And like you said I mean just doing the right thing and being realistic of both sides. I mean this is what happens … like a lot of people when they're sellers they want to be way up here when they're buyers they want to be way now here and they're just like … they have this gap in which I think that just makes them not the best of human beings right? I mean you've got to be like more in the middle and realize the person that's buying and what they're thinking and what their [inaudible 00:35:24.6] is. And conversely when you're in the sell side be thinking about as well. It's not always just about you. There is another side of the coin. And I wish our politicians are covering this a little bit as well but it's just good business it's being a good human being. It's what makes deals get done. It's just doing the right thing and being fair about it; being equitable about it. I could … I just … I would feel like a dirty shyster if I have that guy by that one SKU that I know … like he doesn't know the business as well as I do. I know that one SKU [inaudible 00:36:00.9] it's been around here for two years. No matter how hard we try to sell it, we threw it at a 50% off sale or we even did a 75% off sale around Christmas to try to get rid of some of them. People just don't like that title. It was the one title that we made out of 25, it's a pretty good track record but one title out of 25 that was just this complete failure. I'm like how could you have someone take that? That's just basically like I'm stealing from them or trying to pull the rug over their head. And you know when they discover that later which they probably will in due diligence they're not going to trust you. Joe: Yeah, exactly I was just going to say that. They are going to discover in due diligence. And I'll tell you what for folks listening, we're going to run a little bit long on this episode. I'm going to lock this all up in one episode instead of doing two series here. The due diligence process would reveal anything like that so you need to get ahead of it. You have to be a good human being. This is a transaction that has to end with two satisfied individuals or entities at the closing table; that's the buyer and the seller. It's not winner takes all because the buyer is putting their life savings on the line again and they can walk away at any time. If you fake it, lie, cheat, or steal, it is going to be discovered in due diligence. More and more folks are hiring Centurica, your buyer is. That's Chris Yates' team. Chris owns the company called Centurica. C-E-N-T-U-R-I-C-A, they do due diligence for buyers. And honestly, as a broker, I love it when they join the team because they're working for the buyer. And I have yet to see a deal go sideways on any of the listings that we've put out. What they do more than anything else is they reinstill confidence that the numbers are right, that the seller presented information, and they create a roadmap to growth. They can point out certain things where there are flaws and sometimes it's a little scary but the buyer goes oh okay that's a flaw, I can fix that. I can make this better. And it's a path growth that we aren't able to do on the client interview which is great. One other thing I just want to say that we won't get into in great detail but without a question when you plan to sell instead of decide to sell, one of the things that you should always do, your partner Dave did it, is to take a look at your cost of goods sold. And if there's a possibility that you can renegotiate your cost of goods sold 12 months out in advance and reduce that cost of goods sold, for every $10,000.00 you save you're going to wind up with at least 2 ½ to 3 ½ times that depending upon your business and the trends and whatnot. Mike, you did it but you were able to renegotiate the cost of goods sold on just one of your SKU's and you placed an order for it so was locked in and loaded and the future sales would all be locked in at that lower cost of goods sold. And you sold through all of the other stuff at a higher price. So we were able to increase your seller's discretionary earnings by a total of $43,000 on that overall. And it was just because of that one SKU where you were able to renegotiate the cost of goods sold. In hindsight Mike do you wish you had done it on all of the other SKUs as well? Mike: Yeah I mean I don't think this is necessarily a selling your business thing more than this is just good business at that time. Joe: Yeah. Mike: What I've realized again after four plus years of importing stuff from China is that I wasn't as good of a negotiator as I thought I was. And I've always thought of myself as a really good negotiator in all aspects of anything that I do in business. And we had negotiated down from the original price they gave us but it still wasn't like the Chinese price. And when you get like a really good sourcing agent or you have someone that's more in tune with the local business and customs there they'll probably get a better price. And that's what happened for us. We met somebody … and these contacts are hard to find in business. We were out there doing it all ourselves like going to the Canton Fair, walking the floor finding manufacturers, and we did that because we're never really able to really find a good sourcing agent and didn't really know any other way to go about it. But because … mostly because of EcomCrew which is one of these things where the more you get back in life a lot of times the more you get rewarded. A lot of things we do in EcomCrew we don't get anything direct for our time for what we do. Like most of the stuff is just giving people free information and giving back to the community but what I found that happens in these types of situations is that makes relationships with people and the people you meet they know people that makes relationships with other people and eventually that path led to us finding this amazing sourcing agent that not only is he helping with ColorIt but everything else that we're doing now. And he was in our office here one day and we were actually sourcing something else for our tactical brand. I wasn't even looking to resource price I was looking to source new stuff. We were just chit chatting and we have this display up on our wall of all of our products and he is like what if I try to go source this for you? What do you pay for it if I can do better when you buy it from me? And I was like well man I'm also like not just about money. I'm really about relationships. I really like the factory I work with. We've been working with them for a while. It had to be like one hell of a cost savings for me. Like if it was I'm going to save you know a couple $1,000 here and there it's not worth it for me to blow that up. But he came back and was able to reduce the price of that particular thing from … well, he reduced it by 16% is what it was; which is massive. It's like this ridiculous cost savings. And at the same time the other factory as much as I … it's so funny like I'm really big on relationships and I was really concerned about them they actually copied our product during this process and even used our [inaudible 00:41:30.2] that we had paid for and everything and released our product to someone else. Sold our product to someone else. Which we then have to go spend money on a lawsuit to fight them which we got them to stop but … so between those two things we switched. Now the switch engine is going out and repricing our stuff and that's going to end up benefiting the buyer way more than it is for us on ColorIt which is fine. But I guess the end result is you should always be looking at price. Even when you think you have the best price you probably don't. There was a great … a presentation at ECF about this as well when it came to shipping rates. I don't know if you saw Craig Gentry's presentation on FedEx and UPS when he was just like if you think you have great rates you don't. Like there's … you can still do better because there's still another … they make you feel like you're getting the best deal ever because they're really good at negotiating. And it was similar with our products and we realize that we could be saving quite a bit. I mean 16% percent is a huge difference on COGS … I mean it ends up in your net profit. It's way more than 16% percent increase rate because it's going to be SKUed. It makes you … you could just throw money around the bottom line. So yeah I mean it was massive and the timing was great because we did get some benefit. But yes I wish that we had time to go through and renegotiate all those SKUs for sure. Joe: Yeah and I think you said it best. It's just good business. It makes smart business sense. Not necessarily sorry for the exit planning and the eventual exit and sale of your business. Can you say one more time what Dave always says it's not profit it's—? Mike: Yes. Revenues are vanity and profits are sanity. Joe: Perfect. Mike: I'm sorry I'm going to go off on a tangent; another tangent. [Inaudible 00:43:05.7] I got you and just like people are like counting their chest. Like I'm a seven figure seller and well I'm an eight figure seller and I sold this stuff … no one ever goes around saying well I sold 10 million dollars of stuff last year but I actually lost money. I mean there are plenty of businesses out there that are like that. It's very easy to get in that trap because it's actually pretty easy to sell stuff online. You can just spend way too much money on advertising and you can sell stuff but the profit is what really actually matters. Joe: Absolutely and that's where these marketplace valuations are. It's on the profits so discretionary earnings. All right so look I want to read one more thing and I'm going to wrap it up. I've said that you the seller, in this case, you Mike makes a huge difference in the saleability if that's a word, of your business. How you act prior to selling the business, how you manage your business, and how you represent yourself all throughout makes an enormous difference. And the way that you handled yourself on the client interview, on the recorded interview that we did as part of the package, on the conference calls with buyers, in the inventory challenges that we had, in writing those notes there, and just acquiescing on that $8,000 of inventory that you knew was no good; it all made the difference and it's why we're under Letter Of Intent. I did the math. We're actually under Letter Of Intent at 96% of the list price of the business. Again the inventory we're doing on a note which we don't love but sometimes you have to do that. I want to just read an e-mail that you sent to Matt, your buyer within a couple of hours of when we were under Letter Of Intent to just reemphasize what's important and the way that a buyer should treat their sellers … or seller should treat their buyer. So here we go. I feel like I'm in second grade standing up and reading this— Mike: I was not planning on this being read but it's okay read it. Go on. Joe: It says, Matt … his first name is Matt we're not going to say what his last name is. I just received the signed LOI from you and wanted to take a minute to thank you for putting your faith in me and my love child ColorIt. It's been one heck of a ride but I'm ready to pass off the baton and experience a year or two of not having too much on my plate. Of course, I realize there is still a lot to accomplish to get to the finish line but I wanted to say cheers. With the growth rate of ColorIt along with some of the other fundamentals, I'm convinced this will be your best purchase to date. My goal is to make sure that it becomes a reality for you as we progress through the transition. I look forward to working with you in that regard over the next few months. Mike. Guys, that is the way to transact business. It's just the right thing to do and it feels good. And I can tell you [inaudible 00:45:45.4] 80% year over year growth in December and didn't even mention it 74% year over year growth in January. It made a huge difference and Matt making an offer at 96% of the list price. But this kind of thing, the way Mike handled himself as a professional, as a good human being in this entire process sealed the deal ultimately. So Mike, thank you. I appreciate the way that it's gone so far. I think what we'll do is have a follow up episode to talk about due diligence and the training and transition and how the transaction wound up at the end of the process with this closing that we've got if you wanted to come back on. Mike: Yeah. Can I say one thing about the letter that I wrote? Joe: Of course. Mike: Since you took the time to read it I just … I got to preach because I've been on both sides of these deals. There have been times where I've been the buyer and at that moment that you sign the LOI there's always this anxiety, right? Where you like man I'm about to jump into this thing and you don't necessarily know what you're getting … everything that you're getting yourself into. And I just wanted to let the guy know that first of all I appreciate him again like it was sincere like I appreciate him … this was like now the sales person parts over like I'm not trying to sell him anything. It's always awkward when you're saying stuff in the call part of it. It almost sounds manufactured even though I don't do that but I'm sure to them it comes off as like this guy is probably just saying this to get me to write a check. But it's done. The finish line is there from that perspective I just … and I do want it to be a success story. I want the guy to buy it and look back at these years later and feel like he made the right decision. And yeah that was really all; just kind of being sincere about it. And I think all too often again people are more way about themselves they'd be all high fiving everybody and saying that we got an LOI and celebrating their success more than thinking about what this guy's about to endeavor in. And I think that's important. Joe: I appreciate that and the last thing I'll say is what I said to everyone which is we're under Letter Of Intent. There's no guarantee. Mike: You're right; the money is not in the bank yet for sure. Joe: It's not on the bank yet. So let's have another killer month in February. We'll get through all of this. Due diligence is very detailed but again they've got Centurica doing it for them. We've got to do a lot of work but we know it would be done right. And that emotion will be left out of it as much as possible and it'd be math and logic and we'll get through it. And then we'll have you back on the podcast to maybe high five. And maybe we'll get the buyer Matt on it as well. Mike: Yeah, I think it'll be cool to have him and come join us and talk about both sides. Joe: Alright, I'm looking forward to it Mike. You're a good man I'm glad to do business with you. I look forward to hearing you back on the podcast. Mike: Thanks, Joe. Links and Resources: ColorIt.com Mike's Podcast Email Mike Call Mike 703-216-3225
It seems that with certain Quiet Light Brokerage listings, there is just a mad rush of activity as soon as they come out. Most of the listings that we put out will receive at least 100 inquiries right away, but what does it look like when we put out a “hot listing” that garners two times that much interest? Today we are discussing the type of business that gets 9 offers. We go over how many inquiries those types of listings get, how much discussion and conference calls happen around these potential transactions in a short time frame, and just what it takes to get these listings under contract. We hope you enjoy this little case study of how to set up for a successful sale from the seller side and tips for how to act from the buyer side. Being thoroughly prepared and running a real, viable business are keys to success. Episode Highlights: The main characteristics that made this business so attractive. How the pricing decision played into the transaction. The process of selecting the 15 buyers we entertained. The conference call screening process between the seller and potential buyers, facilitated by the broker. How to choose a buyer and deal with disappointing those who lost out. The 4 pillars of success and how this business checked them all. The one intangible thing that took the business to the next level and attracted the buyers. How the packages that Quiet Light puts together tell a story about the listing and the journey of the brand and its seller. Transcription: Mark: It seems that with some Quiet Light Brokerage listings as soon as when they hit the marketplace there is just an absolute mad rush of buying activity towards those listings. Now to be clear most of the listings that we put out at Quiet Light Brokerage, the vast majority, in fact, it could be an exception to the rule is going to receive at least 100 inquiries from buyers and calls right away. So what does it look like when it we come across a “hot listing”? Well, it looks like a lot of conference calls scheduled very, very shortly and just a mad rush of inquiries probably upwards of 200 and 250 within the first 24 hours in some cases. What's the difference between a listing that is not as hot like that that gets on a 100, 150, which is still a lot and something that doubles that? Joe, I know you launched a listing 3 or 4 weeks ago from the time that we're recording this episode that we would definitely throw in that hot category. What were the top line statistics on that? Joe: It was a let's call it a 95 to 98% Amazon business. It was 30 months old. It was in the category of America's fastest growing recreational sports. It was run by a single owner operator that was a stay at home dad that was a CPA by training yet outsourced the bookkeeping to an e-commerce bookkeeper. $440,000 in discretionary earnings and we went out on a 3.3 which is lower than my recommendation. But in this case, the conservative CPA said no I don't want it to be listed for too long. I really like to get it sold let's … can we go out at a three. I suggested a 3.5. Rarely does somebody come back and say can you sell it for less and he did in this case and we ended up [inaudible 00:02:50.9]. Mark: The guy sounds like one of these unbelievably likable guys. How many inquiries did you get within that first 24 hours? Joe: You know I didn't count the first 24 but I know that you and I were … we were in Dallas and on the way to Houston for a meeting and I think we pulled it up and within the first 4 hours, we had something like 185. So within the first 24, I think it probably doubled to close to 400 would be my guess. Mark: That is insane. Now I do remember obviously these are all loaded questions so anyone listening like I know the answers to most of these questions— Joe: No, he doesn't. He forgot them all. He can— Mark: I actually— Joe: Yeah. Mark: I was introduced by the way this is completely outside; a complete diversion here. So sidebar I was introduced at a group of CEO's yesterday. And in front of the entire group of CEO's the guy that introduced me said “And Mark, by the way, took his son, they have seven kids or is it they're expecting their seventh kid. He's got so many kids he forgets their birthdays because he took his son to urgent care the other day and he got his birthday wrong.” I'm like thank you for that. I'm so glad to be known as the guy who forgets his kids' birthdays. Joe: You've got a lot of kids man. Mark: I got the month right. I didn't get the year or day right. I know the answer to this. We were in the car together and your phone was blowing up. We were at a conference. You were trying to schedule out all of these people wanting conference calls and you did this right over the conference itself which maybe we can talk about in just a little bit here. Within that first 24 hours if you would just guess how many conference call requests did you get? Joe: Well, let's keep in mind that that our process requires that the buyer either speak to me first before requesting a conference call or we've spoken in the past. So in this case in the first 24 hours, I had at least 10 requests for conference calls with buyers that I've already spoken to in the past that have looked at prior listings of ours and they wanted to make sure they were on a call with this one. We wound up with a total of 15 on this. As I said the owner of the business, Paul, is a stay at home dad. It's funny and I don't know if they loved this or just love making fun of Paul for this but he's a stay at home dad right? His son is a couple of years old but he takes his son to daycare at eight and picks him up at five. So I'm not sure how stay at home that is. Anyway so … but the beautiful thing is that he maybe … Paul if you're listening I'm sorry, maybe it's nine to four and you expanded it. Either way, you're a great guy and people love you and your business. I am not getting a Christmas card from Paul this year. Mark: I'm sure you are. Joe: Anyway, he was able to clear his calendar which was great. I was getting so inundated and I was at eCommerceFuel and I'm like I can't do these conference calls. And I had said to Paul on the way through eCommerceFuel look I want to bump this launch a week because it's going to get crazy and I'm not to be able to be on this conference calls. He says oh god really? Come on I really want to get it launched and it totally got my heartstrings so we launched it anyway. So I took the two days … it launched on a Wednesday I think and I took Thursday and Friday and all I did was talk to folks and schedule the calls for the following week. Paul cleared his calendar. We set up a link so that people could just grab a link and schedule them. We did a max of three a day separated by at least an hour a piece and we wound up I think by Monday closed the business. We had all 15 slots scheduled. We capped it at 15 which is really five too many. You just don't have to have that many conference calls. Normally we have three to five conference calls and we have at least one acceptable offer. Here we had 15 scheduled and we wound up with nine. Mark: These are 45 minute slots or are they an hour long slots? Joe: They were hour long slots. I go with an hour yeah. Mark: So just to put this in perspective for people that have not been on the sell side, I know I had this with a listing last year that I represented where it was just a really favorable price on the business and so we had that 15 conference call sort of scenario that we were doing in one week. For anyone on the receiving end of that our clients, the sellers, that's exhausting to go from one conference call to the next to the next; an hour where you're being asked the same questions and you're doing the majority of the talking during that time. This might be a little bit beside the fact but how did he hold up throughout all those calls? Joe: He did pretty well. They were spread out which was nice. He usually had … he had a minimum of an hour but usually, it was two or three hours in between. And we had one drop out so it ended up being 14. But he did pretty well. He had to keep moving around the house. That particular week his son was home because he got a fever a couple of days before and he was quite sick so he couldn't take him to daycare. And his mother flew up from Arizona to be with his son while he moved around the house to be in an appropriate place to do the conference calls. Most of the time he was actually in the nursery doing the conference calls from his laptop. Mark: Right. So I want to get into a couple of big topics here. I want to talk about what were the characteristics that made this business and you already talked a little bit about this but what were the characteristics that made this business so attractive? Because I also know that we suggested to Paul going out at a 3.5. He's the one that wanted 3.3 for the asking price on this. That's the multiple that we're asking on the earnings. So I want to go into what was it that made this such a hot listing where people just needed to look at the teaser that we gave and that alone generated 200 plus inquiries within the first 24 hours? So what's going on there and then second I want to go through a little bit more of the process that you went through in selecting the buyers that were going to get those conference calls. Because out of 250 finding 15 you know I know a lot of buyers out there would be like well how would I become one of those 15 if I'm going to be competing against this? And then last I mean this is kind of the darker side now or the bad side I guess of what we have to do when you have a hot listing like this is we have to disappoint a number of people that actually really want this business but lose out in a bid for it. So I want to go over those three categories with you and then obviously Joe you're better at this podcasting thing than I am so if there's something I'm missing let me know. Joe: Can you repeat that last part again, please? Mark: You are better at this podcasting thing than I am but I still have the number one episode thank you. Joe: And two and three, yes you've got them all, but you do the title so I think there's a little trickery going on it. Mark: And I used to do the promotion too so … your podcasts easy for me what with number one. Joe: I mean you talked about the four pillars; risk, growth, transfer ability, and documentation. And when you go through these things Paul's business just checks all of these off and all the subcategories within those checks them all off. He owned his own brand. He developed it himself. It's in a niche that is out there and there are other brands but he picked a … he specifically chose a niche within a larger niche to serve a certain segment of these people to start with. So there's a growth opportunity to go. He picked the sort of beginners in this sport. He didn't go with the top end of the product. He went with a middle of the road product that beginners … a price point that beginners would enjoy. So right away you could say okay well I'm learning this business and now I'm going to take this to the new level and go with the more professional people that play this sport. It's not quite professional but retired professionals can play. So he did a really nice job there in picking the category. It was just by happenstance. He happened to be on vacation visiting his folks in Arizona and saw this game that they are playing and said what the heck is that? Looked it up, studied it, researched it and it started growing like crazy and chose to go in that category. A registered trademark, beautiful brand, beautiful packaging, and again let the business age. We've been talking for probably nine months and it was getting close to the 24 month mark but we got through that Christmas holiday season. This particular business is not fourth quarter heavy seasonal. It's actually better in the spring and summer months. So we got prior to the spring and summer months so that a new one would have a great advantage with an upswing in the summer months. It was clean books, SBA eligible which helps cast a broader net to probably half the offers. I can't say half because they were nine. So four out of the nine offers, five out of the nine were SBA offers. The growth trends were fantastic; 80, 90, 100% year over year, month over month growth. It looked really good comparing month to month and from year to year. Transfer ability; super easy, he owned the brand. He wasn't reselling anything. He had a good relationship with his manufacturers. And the documentation, of course, good SOP's in place. He did it all himself so there weren't VA's that were combing [inaudible 00:11:42.3] anybody else or people that works on his house or anything like that needed to transfer. This sort of intangible thing that I think took this to the next level is the person behind the business. He's not transferring with the business but he is so, so likeable and so trustworthy; just the full story behind him. And I'm not suggesting that everybody goes and becomes a CPA, quits their job, and works from home and be a stay at home dad. But people want to invest in a business and buy something from somebody that they like and they trust. As Mike Jackness said on a call recently you have to be a good human being in order to get the deal done. It needs to work for both parties. And just describing who Paul is and then how he is in the video and how he came across, he's just a good person and people wanted to buy the business from him. Mark: Yeah, I'm looking at the teaser right now. It's cool if I read some of the teaser, right? Joe: Yeah of course. Mark: All right so again I'm just looking at this. I'm … this is selfish on my part, the next listing I put out I want to get 250 inquiries because that's awesome. I mean that's great for our clients. All right so I'm looking through this and look in through the prism of those four pillars of risk, growth, transfer ability, documentation. Risk; Amazon businesses, this is primarily Amazon. The biggest thing that I find and maybe you'd disagree is that it needs to be defensible against competition. In here I see towards the bottom there's a trademark and the brand is brand registered, there we go. There are over 2,000 reviews you are … these are getting harder and harder to fake. So you're speaking towards this … the main risk that people associate with Amazon. Right away people are thinking oh awesome that's great. Growth; this is rapidly growing. You leaved this but this is rapidly growing as one of America's fastest growing sports. So A. this business is growing, B. this niche is growing; two really good things, so growth is checked off pretty easily. You have some other stuff in here. Transfer ability; the owner, single owner, dedicates approximately 15 hours per week running the business. I could do that right? Who can't do 15 hours a week on something? And then lastly documentation; the owner is a former CPA. Do you need to say anything else? I think you checked each of those boxes with a giant red check mark to say everyone looking at this; this thing is going to check all of these boxes and become really valuable. It turned out surprisingly enough to be true. These four pillars work. Joe: Yeah, they do. They do. And one of the pillars is growth but within that is growth opportunities and growth trends. And the opportunities I'll dig into the package itself. I can't quite remember but he had launched new SKUs in 2018 and so we look at the revenue when did he launch those and the revenue by SKU during that time period. And it was clear that some of these SKUs had gained some traction in 2018 but they hadn't been available for the full 12 months. So that's a built in path to growth. So it's one other thing that buyers liked. And then when you … I mean that teaser it obviously checks all of those four pillars but then when you get into the package and we recorded a video, a video interview with him via Xoom like we're doing now. Obviously, people are listening to mostly audio but we do the video as well. And he's in his home you can see the kitchen in the background and he's got the packaging and he holds up the packaging and it's just beautiful. It's a really nice product and this is again hard for people to duplicate but this particular product it's just cool. It's just a cool niche and a cool place to be and he did a really nice job with the packaging. He did everything right as far as I'm concerned and obviously as far as buyers are concerned as well. Mark: Yeah, one thing I want to touch on here because we talked about this a lot for buyers that you want to be likable and come across well to the potential sellers. But it works both ways too right? I mean obviously, somebody who's selling who's a complete jerk probably isn't going to get too far with us because the process is just too difficult. So most of the … most of our clients are great people anyway but there are some people who have just magnetic personalities. And for this deal, you for I think one of the first times we experimented or you experimented by doing more video conferencing between buyers and sellers on that. How did that impact the deal and what should buyers take away from boy these guys want to do a video conference should I turn on my camera or should I, oh no, no I don't really have good lighting for this and a good set up for it. Joe: Do it. One of the best calls we had was with a guy named Noah. And he hadn't planned on doing video because he was on his dad's party boat. I know he's 35 years old but he's helping his father move this big boat from one port to another because it's being sold. And Paul and I are on video and we said the video is optional and said it's recommended but optional. And he said well both of you guys are there and he goes I'm kind of embarrassed. I'm on my dad's boat. I'm on a boat. I'm like we have to see it, turn it on. Mark: It's great. Joe: Yeah. His dad was in the background moving stuff around and he's shooing him out of the frame. It was fantastic. So Noah was like able and memorable and that stuck with Paul. Paul wanted to sell the business to Noah at the end of the call. So that makes a huge difference. Not everybody did it. There were two or three that were in the top three. Yeah, obviously three when the top three but two or three that stuck out. Two of them did a video one of them didn't do video. The very first person that we had a call with he chose not to do video. He made a great offer and he … we came close on having him but we ended up … Paul ended up choosing someone else. But I think you do the video. I'm doing it more and more and if you've got an opportunity as a buyer to do a video if your broker allows that then, by all means, do it. Mark: I think on the sell side this is something just to note. To people listening, we're going to be doing this more and more because it really makes a difference on the sell side as well. Sellers most likely will be doing video. And I love that he was able to just hold up some of the product on the video to be able to show it there directly. I mean how cool is that? Joe: People are … I mean they're buying a business potentially just based on the black and white information that we put in a package. It's worked for years but we moved to doing videos in the interviews and making it part of the full business summary. 24 months ago I remember doing the very first one. It was horrible. I just did audio actually. I recorded it on my phone and it was horrible but beneficial. And now we've moved beyond that to video. You get to look relatively in the likes of someone's eyes and gauge whether you trust them or not and if you're going to put your life savings on the line and buy their business. And I think it just makes a tremendous amount of information. Mark: Yeah, absolutely. That's really cool. And again this is coming from somebody like myself that does not like video … doing video personally. I tend to be one of those shut the camera off types of guys but I'm more and more warming up to it and definitely getting more accustomed to it as well. So that's pretty cool. And also the odd story, by the way, I know our content director Chris Moore and Chris I know you're listening to this you're going to hate this that I'm saying this but some of the most memorable conversations I've had with people have been in the oddest places. The podcast with Chad Annis where he was in his RV and I could see the pine trees out in the background or Andrew from ECF Live, eCommerceFuel, awesome forum, he was in his van holding up a microphone. I'm like this is great. It's this weird background that only entrepreneurs understand. Joe: Exactly it's classic entrepreneur stuff. You know people when I'm having calls with them and valuations and you hear the dog barking in the background oh I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm like you're an entrepreneur you're going to hear mine any minute. This is the life that we live. It's great. So back to the points, the last point I want to make in terms of what makes a difference … what made a difference for this particular business I think is the images. Paul provided me with great images for the package. And he had them because he had professional photography. And it helped. Obviously, everyone knows that runs an Amazon business what a difference good images make. But he had great images of packaging, of the product being used by human beings having fun and all that stuff. And I was able to litter them throughout the package and it just brought the whole thing to life. And I think it made a bit of a difference too. Mark: Yeah, you know something I've said over the years I've told you Joe and the others here at Quiet Light is that some of the packages that we put together are supposed to tell the story of the business. And I look for that with every business I represent. Like what is the thread that I want to tell you? What is the common thread throughout this? The data and everything else supports a story. And hey people love stories right? That's … we're all drawn to them. Joe: Right. And you said data, I just want to say one more thing I keep looking at the package and I'm like there's another thing. One more thing they gave me was data; data from the outside world that proved that this is one of America's fastest growing recreational sports. So I was able to link to outside magazine articles and newspaper articles and outside sources that backed up what he was saying and what I was saying in the package which is really, really helpful. Mark: Okay, I might regret this question because I don't want to go long on the episode here but you said more than once that he was just a really likable guy. Do you know what made him likeable? It's such a hard question to ask, right? How can somebody be more likable than another person? We've identified when Walker did an acquisition through Quiet Light Brokerage thanking the seller; taking the time to thank our client and saying thank you for agreeing to sell me your business and how much of a difference that made at that point. Was there anything that kind of stood out outside of the video that really made him stand apart? Joe: He was who we described him to be which was a CPA, a stay at home dad, and honest, and uncomfortable in front of the camera, and vulnerable, and real. He never watched the video that I did with him. I told him. He's like I might watch it because I hope that was okay. I was really conscious here and there. I'm like well let's not watch it because you were great. You were human. You were real. And I'm not editing anything out of it and I'm not redoing it because you were great. People are going to love you because you're just normal. And he never watched it. I don't know if he's … I ought to ask him if he's gone back and watched it since we've got it under contract. But he was just real. Just real and honest and he wasn't selling. He was just stating the facts and that's one of the things that we do … I get excited so maybe it feels like selling but stating the facts is what he did. He didn't try to pitch or sell. He was just being himself; likable. Mark: That's … I think I heard that somewhere recently about authenticity among like millennials and I would broaden that out and say among those within internet realm because we've seen so much stuff that it's so easy to colossal or make yourself look bigger or better or more polished than you are. I think people within the internet world we tend to value authenticity a bit more than people might think. And so that vulnerability I think is a key. I'm not saying that you put on a show like oh look at me I'm all vulnerable. Hey, look if you are really confident in what you're doing be confident. Be true to who you are. That comes through. You can tell that in people, right? You can tell when they're being real or when they're trying to make themselves sound better than they actually think they are. Joe: Absolutely, no doubt about it. You want to go on to process and what we do there? Mark: Yeah. I want to know. So 15 conference calls tell me … again mistake that you probably made in this and you told me this, I'm not accusing you of this; launching a listing during two conferences. You were sick that week. You were flying to two different cities, driving to one city with me as well. So how did you manage getting that many inquiries, that many requests for conference calls with everything else going on? Joe: Well, it actually worked out pretty well because I was not feeling well and I was at the conference and I said I am not doing this over the next two days we're going to push it all the next week. And it enabled me to communicate in writing with all the people that inquired, all the people that … look there were a couple of hundred in the first few hours of course but those that I've spoken to before that know the process they reached right out to me. They called me, they texted me, they e-mailed me and said, Joe, I want to talk to this guy. I want to get on a conference call. Because they know that's the process. And so those that have followed our process, looked at as many listings as possible so you know the right fit when it comes along and you can act quickly did just that and reached out to me. And so I just walked it all off and we scheduled the calls. For the process when we had the calls if anyone hasn't been on them, us the broker we talk as little as possible. We make introductions, hand the call over to the buyer to give a little bit of background on themselves and then go right into their calls. We put ourselves on mute and in this case, I took myself off camera as well and we listen and we jump in if we can help out but for the most part we stay quiet until the very end of the call and then we just wrap things up. At the end of each day, I had a quick wrap up call with Paul and I said okay you've had three today, its Monday, you've had three, who do you like the most? And then on Tuesday, I said all right you've had six who are your top two? And the same people kept rising to the surface. Although people near the end of the week very quickly got to the … Noah I think was probably on Wednesday or Thursday. So we ran through the process and I think one mistake I made Mark in hindsight when I look at it, I knew it was going to be a frenzy and as much as people think oh multiple offer situation you going over asking price etcetera. We did. Yes, we had them and yes we did go over asking price because we priced it right. We didn't price it too high or too low; we priced it right. And that gets more increase than anything else buyers know. We chose to go best and final. And I think in hindsight I probably would have had two rounds so that … you know what we did was we told everyone we're going to have a call with every buyer. You may submit offers prior to the following Monday at noon if you wish too but we will not be making a decision until close the business the following Tuesday. You've got to have it in my Monday at noon and we'll make a final decision close the business Tuesday. It gave us a little time to review. Everyone gave it to us in the same exact format that I provided so it was easy. We didn't have to interpret different offers. And most kept it simple which is what I knew Paul was looking for and what I suggested that they do. One made it a little complex but I know them and I know what their goals are. They're raising funds so they've got investors to satisfy. And then tell me what you did? We get a clear deadline of Monday at 12 pm Eastern Standard Time. I got one that came in maybe at 4 o'clock that day and one that came in at 9 o'clock that day, pm, with apologies and a text saying I thought it was midnight. Would you have allowed those offers to be presented or would you've been cold and said no? Mark: I don't … it depends on the situation. That's a tough one especially because of the [inaudible 00:27:08.9] when you said 12, and 12 is I mean you can interpret that both ways. Joe: 12 no we had a total of nine offers. We ended up with 14 conference calls because one fell out. We had nine offers. Mark: No I mean you put your deadline at 12. Joe: Why? I said 12 pm Eastern Daylight Time. Mark: Yeah but I mean you have to think like 12 pm, you think night and you know. Maybe I'm the only one that can read time but— Joe: I don't … I only speak Eastern as I tell everyone else in every other time zone. There's too many time zones and I just say Eastern. I try not to coordinate with their times anyway now we were accommodating. In hindsight I think we probably should've narrowed it down to the top two or three and gone back out to them. But the reality is that when you have a seller that has multiple offers it's hard on the seller. First is that they're on … in this case 14 conference calls that are lasting about an hour each. That's 14 hours. And then he's talking to me for 15 to 20 minutes at the end of each day as well. That's a lot of time in one week. More time than he spends running the business right? 15 hours a week of running it. More time selling it than running it. And then you've got to make a decision based upon we had one offer that was … let's see; it was $150,000 over asking price. Mark: Wow. Joe: A pretty big jump. Mark: Yeah. Joe: That one was an SBA offer. So the benefit there is that not only is it $150,000 over asking price but it's going to take upwards of 60 days longer to close than a cash buyer. So he's going to put another $50,000 in his pocket by waiting an extra two months. I mean just a cash windfall right? Mark: I want to disagree with you on something real quick before we get too far away from this point because it said that— Joe: Is it back to me being the better podcaster or something else? Mark: I'm going to say that to the end after this because I think I'm doing such a stellar job at this interview. Joe: You're doing great. Mark: It's easy when you know the person you're interviewing and you know the story as well. But I'm going to disagree with you on is should you have gone a second round with the offers. Okay, that would be the standard process when you're not expecting multiple offers and when maybe … like if I have a listing that's been sitting around for a month and we narrowed down and we happen to have three buyers that kind of called us around the same time then it makes sense. Because the buyers don't know that they're in a competitive situation but … and I might sound a little harsh here but hey if you're a buyer and you're in a situation where you know it is competitive, and the buyers, in this case, knew it was competitive, that there was a lot of stuff going on. Joe: Yeah. Mark: My guidance has been the same like put in your best and final. There's two sides of that coin; the first … one side is don't try and necessarily get a discount because the market is going to speak. It is going to push that price up necessarily. And two don't over bid what you're comfortable bidding. Find out if I get it at this price I'm going to be happy or satisfied at least? If I go above I'm always going to wonder if I paid too much. Find that, make the offer, and get it done. So I actually think that you did the right thing by doing one round instead of two rounds. I would recommend the two round again if it was kind of a surprise multiple offer situation. Joe: Well, I think … you know I had one person tell me they wish there was a second round. But it was crystal clear in writing in black and white that it was best and final. And so I took his suggestion and constructive criticism in a way that I thought maybe was worthwhile and we could do a second round next time possibly. But when you're in a multiple offer situation it's emotional for the seller. Mark: Yeah. Joe: Believe it or not people it's hard. It's hard for the broker as well. So I just want to reemphasize one thing that you said and that is you don't want people to get … the buyers to get emotional in their offer. We want them to make an offer that they're going to be happy with after they're under letter of intent because we want two happy individuals at closing; the buyer and the seller. It has to be a good transaction for both of them so we don't want them to overbid and so we work really hard to make sure that they're making an offer that they're comfortable with that assuming everything's good in due diligence that we'll get all the way through the closing with. Mark: Yeah and I think if you're a seller out there you're thinking why wouldn't you want to get something above what they're comfortable with? The reason is simple; the offer is the beginning of a longer journey, right? You've got to go through that due diligence, you've got to go through transition, planning, there's a lot of time in there for those cold feet to really, really freeze up a little bit. And for the buyer to say I made a mistake I got caught up in the heat of passion and now yeah. And I want to emphasize one other thing that you said here and that is we think multiple offers is a really good situation and it is but for anyone that hasn't been in that situation before where you have multiple buyers all of whom are very qualified to buy your business and given you good offers. It's really tough to choose because you can't choose five offers. You've got to choose one. Joe: Yeah. Mark: And in your head, you're going to be thinking I've got to get this right because I don't want to go through this again or I don't want to go through this due diligence process and then have to go back and what are people going to think I have to go back. So it's actually really stressful and one of those good problems to have but still a problem. Joe: And that's where I think the video … the folks that did video you know a better connection with Paul little bit although one of the top three didn't do the video but just a super nice guy. I mean I just wanted … we both, Paul wanted him to be able to buy the business. He travels all over the country all the time and has two teenagers that he just doesn't see enough and he wants to work from home. Mark: So there was that personal connection. Joe: Well, it's that personal connection tugging at Paul's emotional heartstrings, at mine. I think he's a great guy. I would love to help him find an amazing business so he spends more time with his family and becomes an entrepreneur which he's not now. He's in the corporate world. Mark: All right we're getting close to the end so let's wrap. I want to get to the end here and talk about— Joe: Sad news. I'm sorry. Sad news having to tell eight people they didn't get it. Mark: Then also I want to know the metrics. Because I know you had recommended to him go out, we should go out at a 3.5 multiple. We covered that the beginning and he said I don't know if we need that you know as … being and Paul sounded like a great guy 3.3 is what it went out at. I'd like to know where the highest and lowest came in and then also the sad news portion having to tell so many people that wanted this business sorry we're going to keep you in mind, we'll keep looking for you. Joe: Yeah, again I wanted it to go at a 3.5. I thought it was worth a push and I let him know it's a bit of a risk. We haven't sold one at 3.5 that's 100% Amazon business with discretionary earnings this “low”. It's still 440,000. We wound up with the highest one being at 3.6, 150,000 over asking and the one that he chose was 50,000 over asking at 3.4, 3.41. And it was an all cash buyer and had the funds on hand. Had had the funds and had the experience and has bought Amazon business before so he looked at the full package. Cash buyer, close in 30 days, hiring Centurica for due diligence but understands Amazon really well and that training and transition was going to be a breeze. It's the full package and that's why he chose that particular buyer. Mark: Yeah, again we've talked before about people winning with lower bids. Not necessarily being the top bidder but still being able to win. And we've also talked about the idea that financial motivation isn't always the sole motivation right? People sell for a variety of reasons and so being able to understand, as a buyer understand some of those secondary goals can really help you out quite a bit. Joe: Let me just jump in, it's not always a cash buyer that wins as well. If everybody remembers the story I've had Syed Balkhi on the podcast and he chose a buyer that was an SBA buyer at full price on his business versus a cash buyer because he just really bonded with that SBA buyer. And he carried a 10% seller note on that particular listing too. So he chose an SBA buyer and a seller note over an all cash buyer. So SBA wasn't necessarily the problem it was just a combination of a number of things and Paul really wanted to get the business sold. And he is kind of a nervous guy a little bit so he didn't want to have to wait upwards of 90 days; 30 was comfortable. Mark: All right what final thing should people know about this particular deal? Because this is a fascinating little case study of just a listing that's going crazy, how to act on the buy side, and also how to set your business up from the sell side. So what final things should we probably round this episode with? Joe: Well I hate to finish it with … you know just because this one sold a 3.4 doesn't mean yours is worth 3.4. This one has all of these little points and metrics to it. I launched one this week Monday at 3.3 and some of those same buyers, those eight buyers a few of them have looked at it and said no. Others are comfortable with the niche and like it and see the upside to it so I think we'll get at or close to asking. But just being prepared running a real business, think about it from a buyer's point of view. They're going to be investing their life savings and if you were them what type of business and what type of person would they want to buy that business from? We want them to succeed. You want them to succeed. And that's really what you need to focus on. Mark: That's fantastic. Hey, thanks for sharing all of this. I know that you always have the best case studies mainly been because you do the most deals at Quiet Light. So thanks for sharing this one. The next one I'm going to write a better teaser than yours and I'm going to try and get like 251 inquiries in the first 24 hours. Joe: You taught me how to do it so I know you can do it. Mark: Well, then I'll make sure that I'll let you know in every podcast. All right cool, hey thanks, Joe. I appreciate all of it. Joe: You bet. Links and Resources: https://www.quietlightbrokerage.com/ Listen and subscribe on Itunes
Another one of the top 10 guests of 2018 is returning today to review the SBA process for both buyers and sellers. We'll discuss what's changed and things buyers and sellers need to look out for in 2019. Stephen Speer of ECommerce Lending, based in Florida, is a specialist in eCommerce acquisition deals. He offers a superior financing experience to buyers and sellers. Stephen urges sellers reach out to him to get their game plan ready and advises buyers to get pre-approved in order to get the ball rolling in the right playing field. Episode Highlights: What Stephen looks for in a business when prepping SBA on the seller side. Why co-mingling of multiple business can be problematic for a seller. His recommendations for cleaning up and consolidating financials when preparing to sell. What the the “debt service coverage ratio” (DSCR), also known as “debt coverage ratio” (DCR), is all about. Where the add backs come from and where Stephen's team looks for them. He advises companies to use an external bookkeeping outfit – for a great ROI! How Steve and his group think outside the box when it comes to SBA lending and refinancing in order to make the purchases happen. What he looks for in an SBA financing candidate. Just because you can write a check doesn't mean you don't have to be likeable. Situations or factors that can stop an SBA loan. The importance of reaching out to Stephen before starting to shop for the business that falls into your price range. Stephen reveals his lending sweet spots – the floor, the ceiling, and his averages. All the financing details – down payment, terms, and interest rate. Why sellers and buyers both need to go through the vetting process. Transcription: Mark: Joe last week we aired the episode with Shakil Prasla and we started out the episode with me basically having you fess up to the fact that I have the number one most downloaded and listened to episode. Joe: You're amazing Mark. Let's just say it right now you're incredible. Mark: But you're [inaudible 00:01:07.9] with Stephen Speer and at the risk of becoming a rethread podcast where all we do is bring back our top guests. We are having back one of our top guests this week again. Joe: Stephen Speer that's right. He's an SBA lender which is interesting in that the top two podcasts that we had had been about buying online businesses and we're brokers that sell online businesses. But hey … look you are amazing and you started this company 11 years ago and your focus was education and helping buyers understand the process and helping them as much as the sellers. So it's worked. And the fact that our top two podcasts are about buying online businesses has proven out that theory. We had Stephen back because last year there were a lot of changes in the SBA policies and guidelines. The dollar amounts came down a little bit, seller financing wasn't required on certain deals, and we recapped some of that and we reviewed the process both for if you're a seller what you need to do to get yourself in good shape to be SBA pre-qualified. And if you're a buyer out there looking to build that portfolio of businesses or buy your first one what you need to do in order to connect with someone like Stephen and get yourself in a position that you best be able to act quickly when that perfect business comes along. Mark: So yeah these rules do update on a yearly basis but fortunately this year it doesn't sound like there's a ton of new changes. With that said there's a lot of good information in this podcast because we get these questions over and over and over again about what does it take to qualify. And I think one thing that … I know we talked to Stephen the other day as a company. We had him and a couple of other SBA lenders come into the company and just— Joe: Yup. Bruce from [inaudible 00:02:47.2] bank, yup. Mark: Yup. Bruce from [inaudible 00:02:48.8] bank. You know I think it's important for people to understand that there is SBA guidelines. Yeah, that's one thing, but then outside of the SBA guidelines, there are some individual bank guidelines as well. And to understand that even though these rules and these guidelines that we're going to cover in this episode might be out there they're not hard and fast when it comes to finding an individual lender. Did you cover any of those guidelines from Stephen's group with the podcast? Joe: Yeah, we went over some specific things that he looks for and his firm looks for. He's with Bank One now … or I'm sorry First Home Bank but some of the topics that we touched on on the podcast and even when we talked to him separately and that you and I talked about is why is it important to pre-qualify your business for an SBA loan? Sellers may be thinking well it doesn't matter why should I do that. And the answer is because it casts a broader net and not a broader net of buyers. There are definitely some buyers out there that only want to use SBA funds because that's … they only have 10 or 15% to put down. And then there's another pool of buyers that could stroke a check for one, two, three million dollars but they're building that portfolio like Shakil and using SBA money so they're only putting 10 or 15% down each time. So it's really important from a seller's standpoint to understand the value of clean financials and getting prepared so you're pre-qualified for an SBA loan. And from a buyer's standpoint, it's a great way to go if you're comfortable with that option. Mark: Absolutely. All right let's get into the episode, let's find out what's changed in 2019 and then also recap some of the rules and some of the things that both sellers and buyers should know about SBA loans. Joe: Let's go to it. Joe: Hey, folks, it's Joe from Quiet Light Brokerage, today I have one of our top 10 guests back for 2019 Mr. Stephen Speer. Welcome back Stephen how are you? Stephen: I'm doing great. Thanks for having me Joe I appreciate it. Joe: Awesome. Man, well listen I want to go through all of the SBA lending practices, what it takes to qualify for a business, what buyer's should be looking for, and I also want to get an update on you and your team. I think you made some changes in 2019 … I'm sorry '18 I want to cover those as well. But for those that have not listened to you in the podcast in the past can you give us a little summary, a little background on yourself? Stephen: So I have an e-commerce lending team at First Home Bank. The bank happens to be located in St. Petersburg, Florida. Our team are lending throughout the country. As a matter of fact very few of our loans are actually in Florida but I made a transition months ago with the privilege of being able to grow my e-commerce team and we provide a level of support as we go into the new year. So I'm pretty excited about that. Joe: Yeah, it's exciting and I know that we've done a number of deals together and you've done a lot of work with Quiet Light and some of the other website brokerage firms. How big is your team going to get to? Where are you at now and how big are you going to be compared to where you were before? Stephen: So my team comprises of four people. Myself, a gentleman named Bill [inaudible 00:05:55.9] who is kind of my right hand man along with my underwriter and closing team. So I'm pretty excited about that. I plan to add an additional person in Q1 and another person who I have identified for Q2. So I plan to have three people do what I do. In other words, myself and two more and then stick with my underwriter as well as the closing team. Joe: That's huge. I always worried about you getting hit by a bus. Now you can get hit by a bus and we'll be fine. Stephen: Well yeah, my wife would love to hear that so. Joe: We don't want her listening to the podcast [inaudible 00:06:32.5] buy a bus and start driving around looking for you. That's great man, that's great. One of the things that I want people listening to this to understand is that we've dealt with a lot of SBA lenders over the years and you're a … you're not a banker. You don't come across as a banker. You don't have certain boxes that you must absolutely check every time when you speak our language. And you hang out with e-commerce entrepreneurs which is great. Let's talk a little bit about what it takes to qualify for an SBA loan from the sell side of the business. What do you look for from a business? When I send you a listing and say “Hey Stephen will this qualify?” what things are you looking for? Stephen: Well, first I'd like to … I would say I'd request financials. So first what I look for is what type of business is it? Is it FBA driven, is it 3PL, or do they provide their own fulfillment? So I look at that. If it's a product based business I look at the number of SKU's, type of product. I really do dive into that because one thing I try to avoid is having … trying to finance a single type business that's [inaudible 00:07:45.1]. So that's one thing I look at. So once I get past that I really kind of dive in to the financials. When I mean financials, the holy grail of financials are the tax returns. So for example now that we've entered 2019 I look for tax returns for 2017, maybe 2016 [inaudible 00:08:05.5] year, solid tax return for 2017, and solid year ending financials for 2018, and as we continue down the path of Q1 obviously 2018 tax returns. So basically back to your question a wrap up of … in 2016 of the business, solid year of 2017, and a strong trailing 12 month or strong and the word strong – Joe: Lots of people listening that are on their business will say “Hey that's not a problem. I got tax returns. Everybody files tax returns.” and then they give you a tax return and it's co-mingled with four other businesses that they're selling and they're only selling one … I'm sorry four other businesses that they run and they're only selling one. That's a problem isn't it, the co-mingling of multiple businesses under one tax return? Stephen: That is a problem and unfortunately, it's a problem that seems not to go away despite your best effort and your team's best effort as well as my team's best effort. They just seem not to follow that advice so that is a challenge. Now I do … with that coming up so often I do have a set of things I'm able to put in place, for example, I direct this seller back to his or her accountant and be able to income streams and expenses done in a professional manner. It can't just be Quick Books and I've been able to still get financing for businesses that do have co-mingling within a tax return. Joe: Does it just take a little bit longer to get those worked out and closed? Stephen: It does take longer. Generally, it adds roughly two months to the entire process. Joe: Woah. Stephen: It does take time depending on the responsiveness of the accountant. Especially as we enter Q1 and then start working on returns and start getting buried because [inaudible 00:09:52.5] season. It does take a little bit of time but it's not something that's not doable. The biggest recommendation I have either if you're thinking about selling a portion of your business now is to get on that and have your accountant provide or put together what I call consolidated financials. And basically what we do is we take the tax return and compare it to the consolidated financial which show a delineation of the different businesses and we're able to perform. Joe: Okay so for the sellers out there listening to that and going well I don't have to have an SBA buyer I can just sell to a cash buyer. You're absolutely right, there's a ridiculous amount of money out there in the landscape for people buying online businesses. The reality is though that you want to cast this broad of a net as possible for potential buyers. And we see this over and over again somebody that's from another country that is selling a business if it's a multi-million dollar business but you're not US based, not filing US tax returns. It is more difficult to sell because the buyer pool is not as large. There are buyers out there that I know personally that have the ability to stroke a check for five million dollars but they're smart and they don't want to. They want to keep as much money as they have … as they can and buy multiple businesses and maybe use someone like Stephen and SBA lending and only put down 10 or 15%. So you do cast a broader net if you can do the consolidated financials. If you're just starting off in business your best approach is to have one LOC for that line of product that eventually you may sell. We had Syed Balkhi on the podcast as well and Syed has a number of different businesses and every time he says “okay I'm done with this one” we're able to list it and sell it very, very easily. And the last one I think we did cash … actually, I think we did two SBA loans and it was very easy because he files separate tax returns for each business. That's the ideal situation. How do you feel Stephen about someone selling a business and they're coming to you with Excel spreadsheets for their profit and losses versus Quick Books? You don't really care about that you're looking at the tax returns and a P&L anyway that's in excel format right? Stephen: Primarily if we're talking just a single business, single return, single P&L's yeah that is fine. So that's not a problem at all. Obviously, the more … accounting is all about substance over form, it's kind of an accounting term. That is true but it can't be hand written or something very unprofessional I mean because ultimately underwriters look at that. If that's just kind of run together and it doesn't make much sense it's not done by someone who knows how to do a P&L or a [inaudible 00:12:47.0] but as long as it looks presentable that's fine. Joe: Well, you and your team are betting on the future success of the business. So first you want to see that the business is run properly. And if somebody is not using Quick Books or Xero or some form of accounting software it's an indication that it's not being run in as professional a manner as possible right? So that … okay, and the buyers look at that that way as well. And I could tell you from a brokering standpoint when you're using Excel spreadsheets for your financials and co-mingling it's much more difficult to get maximum value for it because no matter what things are missed. I had a call this morning where there was several thousand dollars that was buried inside of a marketing budget that was actually a personal thing. We had to dig very, very deep to find it. And that times three adds nine, ten thousand dollars up to the value of the business. So ultimately your view is you want to make it a safe investment in financing this loan and make sure there's a success down the road for the future. Is there a … some sort of multiple barrier that is a ceiling for you? Is it … how do you … it's … I can guess you call it debt to income ratios right? Stephen: Debt service coverage. So let's say … okay, so debt service coverage is primarily what we look at. We really don't look at EBIDTA multiple. I mean we do and we don't. The valuation piece definitely we look at that but primarily we look at a debt service coverage. So for example, if the overall loan is the obligation, annual obligation for a loan is $100,000 let's say, the bottom line number on the tax returns needs to reflect at least $115,000. Giving us a debt service coverage of 1.15. Now a lot of sellers run their similar personal expenses through the tax returns. I'm able to add those back so you can't just take a tax return and say okay it's a bottom line of 115,000. You got to take whatever the bottom line number is and then their add backs. Standard add backs would be interest, [inaudible 00:15:02.7], depreciation, amortization, those are primarily some of the add backs. Some of the seller discretionary add backs might be … especially if it's an FBA setup type business where there's run expense, well, the new owner probably will just run it as a home based business, some people add that back. Some people tend to run their car expenses through even though it's a home based business. I'm able to add that back. And any one time expenses, the revamping of a website or other ancillary things or a one time they could add those back. And I take that number and determine the means and debt service coverage. Joe: Do you pull those from our spreadsheets because we have add backs and do you look at those or do you dig into the tax returns for the add backs? Wouldn't it be hard to find them in tax returns? Stephen: Yeah so both, I look at what you provide in terms of your spreadsheet but some of those I'm not able to add back like typically insurance would be really hard. It'd be hard fought to have an underwriter add back insurance expense for example. Joe: It shouldn't be added back. I agree. If it's an expense that's going to carry forward it shouldn't be an add back. Stephen: Yeah and really those … so of your add backs, the ones you reflect typically on your spreadsheet I'm able to add most of those back and those … I use that spreadsheet as a roadmap. But I do go into the tax returns and make sure that the numbers are aligned. And then I'm able to really dig into a tax return and see if there's any other type of add backs that I'm able to find. Joe: Okay, so from a seller's perspective they want to do the best they can not to co-mingle multiple businesses under one tax return. Obviously, have tax returns and a good financial so we can dig into the add backs and make sure that debt to income ratio is going to work, anything else that they should be considering? I think you said obviously you don't want a business that's balanced on just one SKU doing 90% of the revenue. Ultimately the bottom line is you want to make sure that the bank is going to get paid from the person buying the business and it's going to be a success right? Stephen: Yeah and another thing we look at if there's any sort of declining revenue or a blip where … for example I had a client last year that completely lift Chinese new year and didn't have inventory to sell. So there was a blip but I was able to explain that to an underwriter. And obviously with the new buyer who felt that this business [inaudible 00:17:38.3] little bit higher. He was able to avoid any blips in the coming [inaudible 00:17:42.9] for example. So it's also an explanation there. The key for sellers is even if you're not considering selling your business now get these things in place so when you go to sell you're going to get the most amount [inaudible 00:17:58.5] of your business. I had a lot of sellers come to me and it's kind of like they want to list now and their financials are a disaster now. So I recommended that buyers kind of get on the ball. Maybe it's a new year's resolution to fire your current accountant and hire a good one and to really get the financials in place and put certain financial things in place now or pay dividends in the future. Joe: Yeah, I'd refer people to certain e-commerce bookkeepers, two or three of them on a regular basis and have them go back … they'll go back in this case to 2019 and import all the bank statements and vendor invoices and everything and get things updated and accurate. And Quick Books actually helps the CPA do their job better. On a go forward basis, it's the best thing in my experience for a decent sized business to use somebody else. Let them focus on the bookkeeping and you focus on running the business and doing … driving revenue and maximizing profit. I think that's really going to work. Stephen: Oh absolutely. And the return on that investment Joe, I mean you had a podcast recently that— Joe: I'm touched. Stephen: The return on that investment is enormous. Joe: And it's incredible. I've seen it happen firsthand where we've had P&L's in Excel spreadsheets and the deal fell through three or four times and then the guy took the same information, hired a bookkeeper, they put it into Quick Books and we sold the business for 50,000 more of that … I think we had again three or four LOI's and it sold quickly which is fascinating; a fascinating study. Let's talk a little bit Stephen about you. About e-commerce lending and your group and how you think outside the box. Because I want to talk about this a little bit. Not all lenders are created equal. You and I have a transaction going on right now where you had to really think outside the box. And I'm going to summarize it and I want you to then just talk about what your thought process was and how you approached it. We have a buyer at Quiet Light Brokerage that again has the money to stroke a check but he is in a situation where he's building a portfolio of businesses and he's using the SBA lending process. Buyers can take up to what … five million dollars in money right? Stephen: Primarily. Joe: So somebody could buy five … I guess that would be one million dollars I'd then be putting in loans right? They're liable for up to five million. So he's buying multiple businesses— Stephen: One loan or 10 loans it doesn't matter. Joe: Okay perfect. So he has two under a letter of intent with Quiet Light Brokerage now and mine is in the process first. And he's got the wherewithal but I think he had some pretty sizable loans that threw off his overall debt to income ratio. How did you work that out? Stephen: So … and that definitely took a lot of out of the box thinking in the sense that he had … he has an Amazon loan and I can't divulge too much personal information but the monthly payment on the Amazon loan was staggering. It was five figures on a monthly basis. I looked at debt service coverage and throw in a very large five figure monthly payment through all the numbers ROI. Joe: And this is on a separate business that he owns. Stephen: Separate business that he owns. Joe: Right, okay. Stephen: Because it does affect what's called global debt service coverage. So on a separate business that he owns which happens to be an online business. Joe: Right. Stephen: He has very large payment and then he purchased a bunch of inventory and financed it through Amazon. So it threw all the numbers off. So you kind of have to dig deep and say okay how about we refinance at that, take that monkey off his … that large knot off his back and be able to incorporate, be able to reduce that monthly payment and still get the new purchase done. And that's what I'm in the process of doing. His new purchase, his loan on his new business acquisition was just approved and I'm going to process at refinancing his Amazon loan. Joe: Now the Amazon lending loan is very prevalent these days with Amazon based businesses. And you and I have done just for the record content site, SaaS business, all sorts of [inaudible 00:22:00.5] certainly not just Amazon. But in this situation, this particular individual had several hundred thousand dollars in loans and the money gets withdrawn out of their Amazon deposits. Do you recall what the interest rate was then? What his payments were? What the interest rate was and compare it to what you're going to be able to do for him? I just want to emphasize you thinking outside the box and how much money you're going to save this guy on a monthly basis. Because he's thrilled right now I got to tell you he's thrilled. Stephen: So his monthly knot with Amazon was 48,700 and something. Joe: Holy cow, okay. Stephen: It's going to be a couple of grand. Joe: No way 48,000 down to $2,000 … that's amazing. Thank you for thinking outside the box. You're helping him and you're helping a couple of the sellers of the businesses that were doing deals on now. That's fantastic. Stephen: Yeah, and you touched on something really important now. I do have a fair amount of buyers out there, actually, currently 347 buyers out there looking for businesses to buy. And quite a few of them can easily [inaudible 00:23:03.5] for a two three million dollar business but they're building a portfolio. So back to your comment about portfolios a lot of buyers out there right now are building portfolios. They want to buy two, three, four different businesses … online businesses for the course of the next two or three years. And they don't want to use up all their cash. And the fact remains is that when you're trying to scale a business cash is king. You need cash to scale a business. You need to buy additional inventory. You need to grow it. And if you're cash strapped it's really hard to grow an online business. So I'm helping several of those buyers accomplish that. So an SBA loan is not just for the person who needs a little bit lower barrier to entry. An SBA loan is also for the person that could easily pay cash but chooses not to, to stay in line with his or her business goals Joe: Absolutely. Well, let's talk about the buyers a little bit and what you look for in a buyer? You and I have never had a situation where we brought a buyer and you said yes and then it turned out they weren't qualified. But I had a situation a few years ago where I had a couple of Harvard MBA graduates. They literally just graduated a month before from Harvard. They got their Master's in business and they decided to partner on an investment in an online business. And they had some funds. One of the graduates had some funds from a parent. It went through the process. They're pre-approved from a different lender and then underwriting said these guys have absolutely no real world experience we're not betting … I think the deal was two million dollars. We're not betting two million dollars on these guys. Yeah, their pedigree is good, their education fantastic but no and the deal fell apart. What do you look for? Are you looking for real world experience? Is there a certain asset value that they need to have? How do you handle it when somebody comes to you? What do you look for? Stephen: So first I look at … I try to determine and I do interview my buyers. So once you refer them to me I do interview them as you know and one of the first things I really touch on is experience; so first determining if they have direct experience or indirect experience. And then as I mentioned in a previous podcast it's almost like going for a job interview, even if you don't have direct experience you need to make the person real comfortable with hiring you. The same goes with a loan is that even if you don't have direct experience what business … what skill sets do you have that's transferrable and also who's going to fill the void of having direct … let's say SEO experience or direct experience in the space? So those two things I look at. So if the person has direct experience, pretty much a no brainer. A person that doesn't have direct experience it's putting together the narrative like paying underwriter even though here she doesn't have direct experience but indirect experience in these categories. And additionally, they're going to have support via an employee or a contracted employee that that fill a void. Joe: I got you. Stephen: So I'm able to … I've never … honestly, I've never had a deal where an underwriter has said gosh that's great they went to Harvard but they have no direct experience. Joe: We had a situation … I'm going to name a name here but I'm only going to use their first name; a guy named Rocky. Rocky was I think he was in his 60's. He retired and ran a General Manager for some car dealership something … somewhere in the country. I loved the guy. I thought he was amazing. Just as a broker, as a lender you just … you connect with somebody like I want to help this guy. I want to find him the ideal business. Although let me say I told him he's crazy. He didn't need to buy a business. He was retired. What for? You have plenty of money I'm like you're crazy just go play golf or something. But he ended up buying something from us and he didn't have any direct online experience. He was a GM for dealerships that yeah they had websites but he didn't run them himself. I find there are a lot of people in the corporate world that are putting in 60 hours a week that look at the e-commerce entrepreneurs that are selling a business when they're working 20 hours a week and they're making more money and they want to live that life. They want to spend more time with their family, with their kids, travel. Are a lot of the folks that come to you these types of people, and is that in direct experience still okay? Stephen: Yeah so to answer your question yes a lot are. Be it Rocky or any other, they don't have direct experience. So the thing about Rocky is that … first, off he is incredibly likable, incredibly well spoken, and have a very strong resume. The guy was successful in his professional career. Joe: Yeah. Stephen: And then unlike somebody working at a low skill job the guy ran the car dealerships which he was 60 hours. Or he was probably working 90 hours a week now but with a transferable skill set. And also he filled that void of not having direct experience in running an online business but was able to fill that void by bringing somebody in. So we felt very comfortable with that and he ultimately was approved. And the last time I talked to him he's doing very well. Joe: Yeah, I think he bought a business from Amanda. I didn't have one for him at the time but Quiet Light, in general, had one. And I think Amanda loved working with him as much as you did. So the likability factor that Rocky had, when buyers come to you is that important? Do you have to like them to do business or? Stephen: Well not like … I think— Joe: Make a difference with human right? Does it make it a better—? Stephen: They are human. So an underwriter is human and if they have a good dialogue with the buyer, for example, Nathan was incredible as well. Joe: Yeah. Stephen: One of the reasons Nathan's loan sailed through is because he was very well spoken and had the incredible background to be successful. So yeah it does. Joe: Okay so we're going to just touch on that thing that everybody knows but they don't talk about and that is if somebody comes to me, if somebody comes to you and they want to buy a business we want to sell you a business. But if you are 10 times more difficult than the next person and they also want to buy a business, my client … my seller is going to say okay well I've got an offer from each which one do you like more Joe, talk about the plus and minuses. And we've got to do that. And in your case you just said you've got something like 354 buyers on your list. They're looking for a business, they're not buying it from you, they're buying it from the likes of Quiet Light Brokerage. Stephen: Right. Joe: But you still have to work with them on a regular basis and you still have to go through the process with them and be likable. Simple thing guys, everybody listening just be likable. Just because you've got the ability to stroke a check doesn't mean that you can push a guy like Stephen around. There's lots of people that are trying to buy a business, lots of people that are trying to sell businesses and being likable is so-so key because this is an online world. We're not sitting across the table from each other and it makes a huge difference being likeable in the process. Stephen: We've kind of touched on that. I was recently … I have a buyer who's been looking for a year and a half. Not to scare new buyers out there but sometimes it does take a while. But he's not likable. Joe: Okay. Stephen: And he was on a phone call … I was on it as well with the seller and he was beating up the seller on the phone in front of me like I wasn't on the call. I don't know but … and the seller chose another buyer. Joe: It's not hard. I'll talk from personal experience. When I sold my business I remember being on one of these buyer conference calls. I had three or four. Jason Yellowitz here at Quiet Light sold my business way back in 2010. And I had three or four calls with potential buyers before it went under contract and sold it. But I remember sitting … I was in the car on a call and I'm sitting in a parking lot and I've got this guy just belittling my business and talking about all the negative things and I'm just to all I can do to end the call. It's you know … to not end the call and to be polite and it was really hard. And even if he made me a full price offer … all cash, full price offer I have to take into account, sellers have to take into account how difficult that particular type of buyer is going to be in due diligence and in the training and transition period. There's a cording, a relationship it's … it ends at a certain period but you're going to be in a relationship with that person and you want to make that as pleasant and as enjoyable as possible. So being likable is critical without a doubt. Stephen: Absolutely. Joe: What are the top two or three qualities that you look for aside from good financials from the buyer? Like, do they have to have a certain debt to income ratio? Do they have to have certain assets in order to buy a business? Stephen: As I would say assets it's more present driven unlike buying a house. I think we definitely look at what's called post-closing liquidity. For example, when all the dust settles is it broke after closing or still has a fair amount of cushion. So we definitely look at that. Is there outside income? Does [inaudible 00:32:09.5] have a … what I call a day job to … for outside income? That's another thing we look at. So those are two very important variables. Credit score is important but it's not like buying a home where you get to really perfect your lending terms. It's pretty much either get a loan or you don't get a loan in the SBA world. A recent issue … if the person is being down with a ton of personal debt that's something that we look at. Generally, that's a character … it's the ones living beyond their means that's generally not liked. So those are just some of the variables. And also what I look at is does this person have the skill set to be able to scale a business or is the business going to go stagnant as it transitions over to him or her. So that's another thing we look at but [inaudible 00:33:00.5] just some of the variables. Joe: So when someone comes to you and says I want to buy a business part of what you do is you look at their financials. You look at all those variables and you say okay great you qualify to buy a business up to a certain amount. Is that the process? Do you say okay … do you give him a guide as in terms of you can buy something up to a million or two million [inaudible 00:33:19.8] like that? Stephen: Yes and a lot of the determining factor is based on their … is it direct, do they have direct experience or indirect experience? So that is going to move— Joe: Noted. Okay. Stephen: Secondly, post-closing liquidity that's really what I focus on. If the person is trying to buy a million dollar business he has to inject or put down a hundred grand and he has 110,000 in the bank that's not going to work. So we kind of have to move the needle down. Joe: And in that situation, they wouldn't … it's not that they don't qualify to buy a business but in that situation, they wouldn't qualify for a million dollar business maybe a half a million dollar business. Stephen: Right, it would move the target price down a little bit. Joe: Okay so just let me clarify that so that somebody has a $110,000 and they want to buy an SBA business and put 10% down, for those listening that's generally the number 10 to 15% down, 110,000 you're going to be left with 10 grand; not going to work. So you got to look at a half a million dollar business. Stephen: Or 800, 750 something like that. Joe: Yeah and then you look at their debt, what they have, what they need to live off of and that smaller business is not going to cash flow as high especially after the debt service from your loan. So you look at all of that and help them with what they're capable of buying first and foremost right? Stephen: Yeah, most of my buyers have what I call a day job so most of their … in most cases their day job covers their personal debt so that's rarely a real factor. Now I do have an individual recently who didn't have a day job and had tons of personal debts so that kind of blew her out of the water. But generally we do look at that. So again back to post-closing liquidity what I do is … so for all of you out there once Joe refers a client to me for pre-qualification I'm able to have an interview with that person on a scheduled call and ask some questions and also they provide me what's called a financial statement. And then I'm able to in most cases issue a pre-qualification and give them a target amount. In the case … in the example that was well over 800,000 for example. And then that person goes back to Joe and says okay I'm pre-qualified with Stephen, he told me to look at businesses around 800,000 let's go. Joe: And then they have a path which is the most important thing. Somebody that doesn't know what they're looking for, doesn't know what they're buying capabilities are is less qualified from our view. So one of the things we want you to do folks if you're out there as a buyer reach out to someone like Stephen and get pre-qualified so that it will help you narrow your focus. And then the next step is to look at as many listings as possible from the online world and figure out what you like and don't like about the business. When you find the right one if it's a great business you want to be in a position where you're already prequalified to act quickly. Because if it's a great business guess what other people are going to be looking at it and making offers as well, really important there. Stephen: Absolutely especially since there are a lot of buyers out there and if you snooze you're going to lose. So you need to kind of get your house in order before looking. Joe: Absolutely, I agree 1000%. So let's talk quickly about the qualifications of the buyer. Do they have to be a US citizen? Stephen: They could be either a green card holder or a US citizen living in the United States. Joe: That green card holder or US citizen living in the United States, the business itself does it have to be a US citizen or a green card holder filing US tax returns? Stephen: In most cases yes depending on the structure of the business. Joe: Okay, there's always a sort of gray area in the situation. Stephen: Yes, it depends on the structure, you kind of different components as in the past few company on the foreign entity— Joe: Right. Stephen: Things that does affect that answer. Joe: Right. Okay and then your business and the size of loans that you guys generally do, are we're looking at you're looking for a half a million and up two, three million, where is your sweet spot in terms of lending? Stephen: So generally my personal loan floor let's call it is half a million dollars. But obviously, if it's a client I've been working with and happens to just look at $800,000 businesses I would grant one for 400,000 on that person. My average loan amount is about a one and a half million dollar range. So … and you know looking at my 2018 numbers that's close to 60 million, 40 transactions, that's about that number. Joe: I got you. I think we have 38 of them that were directed at me I think right? No, I'm kidding. Stephen: 41. Joe: So you're loaning on the value of the business. And what about if it's an inventory based business are you loaning for the value of the inventory as well? And then working capital … does somebody, do you always loan … give working capital money so that they— Stephen: Always. So a very good topic here so obviously I'm going to finance the business itself. I'm also … if the purchase price of the business does not include inventory I finance the inventory, the on-hand inventory. And what I do is I work with you Joe in determining what that number is going to be at closing. So I finance that. I also include working capital. And that working capital I generally work it into a loan in a sense that I'm able to include it in your market … not directly your market, so okay of that 100,000 working capital 50 is going to be for additional inventory above and beyond what's being purchased with the business. And the other 50 is going to be marketing campaign or advertising campaign, it could be for hiring support staff. Joe: Okay and then lastly I want to talk about the term of the loans. We're talking five years, 10 years, 30 years, what are we looking at? Stephen: It's a 10 year loan and of all those components, by the way, it ends up being all in one loan. It's not where you have separate loans for each. So it's all incorporated into a 10 year SBA loan. Joe: Okay and 5, 6%interest rate somewhere in that range; five to seven? Stephen: Base prime plus two and three quarters, right now it's 8.25. Joe: Prime plus two and three quarters. Okay so for those that want to run their own numbers 10% down, 10 year note, prime plus two and three quarters, do the math on that. Stephen: Yeah. Joe: The seller note in 2017 and prior to that in most of the transactions that we did or did together you required some sort of seller note. And that changed in 2018 so for … got a business that's a million and a half and somebody wants to put down 15% are you requiring a seller note on a deal of that size or are you not anymore? Stephen: So up to 2017 a seller note was required by the SBA and not by the invidual lender. Joe: Okay. Stephen: So typically it was 10% down payment let's call it from the buyer, 15 from the seller or vice versa in terms of the seller note for a total of 25% down payment rejection. Joe: Okay. Stephen: In '18 the barrier to entry was lower. The overall requirement paying on a deal is the minimum 10%. In terms of what lenders require, some lenders require a seller note. We do not. Sometimes I incorporate a seller note to strengthen the loan especially if the buyer does not have direct online experience. So it gives kind of the underwriter warm fuzzies in the sense that the transition will most likely go smoother. The seller has a little bit of skin on the game. So there are situations where I do incorporate a seller note for approval purposes. Joe: So for buyers, sellers, even other brokers listening to this, this is you know you're hearing Stephen say I incorporate this or I incorporate that to help the underwriter feel better about the loan and make sure it goes through. What I do personally is when I have a deal that's pre-qualified by Stephen or someone like Stephen when I get an offer on the business A) I want to know if Stephen knows who they are and if they're working with him and how they look qualification wise. But B) I really like to send the deal structure to you Stephen and say this is the deal structure is this going to float with your underwriters? And I think that's critical to the ultimate success of the loan and the transaction process. Because the last thing that we want … it's happened once or twice and I don't recall if it was with you or not but … where you've … actually no it was with you where the underwriter looked at something and they had to tweak it just a little bit, had to increase the seller note by 5% or something like that. That's not what we want to do so now I run everything by you prior to having a letter of intent signed. I recommend everybody to do that if they're going to do an SBA loan through Stephen and e-commerce lending. Stephen: Absolutely, so that's a very good point as we continue down the path of e-commerce lending I am constantly tweaking the way I do things. And that's one thing I do is I bet really hard upfront so there aren't changes on the backend. Fortunately some of my buyers don't [inaudible 00:42:26.4] the businesses that they're looking at prior to signing a letter of intent. It's kind of an after they do that they come to me and say hey I just bought this business and here's the deal structure I want you [inaudible 00:42:38.3] well that's not going to work. Joe: Yup they don't do that with Quiet Light they have to [crosstalk 00:42:41.7] so the whole process we require that conference call. Because we … it's not, we don't want people to go under a letter of intent just to tie it up and then make a decision. We want them to make the decision, go under letter of intent, and close and go through that process. It just saves everybody a lot of time and hassle. Stephen: It really does. Joe: Okay, any last thoughts about … you want to share with the buyers or sellers that are listening to the podcast today? Stephen: Yeah in terms of sellers even if you're not selling a business now please reach out to me in general and have us put together a game plan for future sale. It's really, really important and again it will be dividends on the backend. And then for you buyers out there reach out to me. I'm more than happy to pre-qualify you for a business. You can reach me at stephen@ecommercelending.com and the first name is spelled ph or call me at 813-766-4524. Joe: Thanks. I will put that on the show notes as well. The last thing I want to say is just to reiterate what you're talking about there with the sellers and it's called choose your pain. Go through the pain of getting your financials in good shape now and having a great transaction and a sale or don't do it and you're choosing your pain later because it's going to be difficult. You're going to be … you're bank account is going to be in pain because you're not going to get as much value for your business. So make the choice and hopefully you'll choose that first one. It's not fun, it's not exciting but it's the right thing to do. Do some valuation exit planning, reach out to Stephen; reach out to anybody at Quiet Light. Go to inquiries@quietlightbrokerage.com myself, Mark, anybody on the team is happy to help you even if you're not planning to sell your business for another two, three, four years. That's what we're here for. Stephen, you're awesome as always. Thanks so much for your time. I look forward to a great 2019 with you. Stephen: Absolutely, Joe. Thanks for having me. I'm looking forward to it as well. Joe: All right man, talk to you soon. Links and Resources: ECommerce Lending Email Stephen Call Stephen 1-813-766-4524
Look, I know that supporting someone you love through cancer can really be the toughest job in the world. Not only do you have to support them through it, but you somehow have to try to find a way to deal with all the craziness and the uncertainty yourself. Today, we get to hear what it's like to be a caregiver from Honore, who went on this extraordinary adventure of supporting her husband through cancer. Here are some things that we cover today: The shock of cancer diagnosis in your 20s The tough challenge of switching roles as a caregiver Top advice on keeping life and treatment apart How to deal with stress and uncertainty when your partner has cancer The importance of keeping to new rituals and much, much more! Links 128 Days & Counting: Website and Blog 128 Days & Counting on Amazon 128 Days & Counting on Goodreads Episode 015: When Your Loved One Has Cancer Full Transcript Joe: What was your life like before cancer? Honore: Life before cancer feels really simple now. My husband and I, Tom, we were married three years. We had been together just over six. We were in our late 20s, establishing our careers and enjoying the opportunities of travel. We were at that age where every weekend was a wedding or a bachelor party or a bachelorette party. We were just in that time in our lives where we were constantly moving and really got to enjoy those first couple of years of marriage. Things were great. It came so abruptly that that time in our life just seems foreign now. Joe: Absolutely. How did you first find out that Tom had cancer? Honore: We were actually very fortunate. Tom was having a weird cough and some pain in his chest. He didn't really think anything of it. I remember him coming up the stairs that night and just making a face a little bit and pushing on his chest. He said something just felt weird. We thought, okay, a cold is coming or something like that. It's September, all the back-to-school stuff and we went to sleep that night and about five o'clock the next morning, I woke up and he was putting clothes on and he was getting ready. He said he needed to go to the hospital. Fast-forward an hour or so later, and he had an x-ray and they saw a shadow in the mediastinal, so in his chest. From that, they sent him to a CT and there was a baseball-sized tumour sitting in the centre of his chest, essentially, in the mediastinal. What was causing that chest pain for him was the fact that the tumour was touching his heart. We were actually in a way very fortunate because it mimicked symptoms that you don't mess around with. You go into the ER when you're having chest pain like that. Where some people who had gotten this type of cancer in their abdomen and it takes longer to diagnose because you just think you're having a food allergy or something like that. We were very fortunate in a way that it was in his chest. We got to the hospital a little bit 6:00am, by three o'clock that afternoon, we knew it was a late stage-three cancer. His particular cancer was a non-seminoma germ cell tumour, which is a rare form of testicular cancer. Joe: Yes, wow, it's just such a shock, isn't it, because you just never see it coming. What was the first thing that went through your mind? Honore: That I would wake up. It's funny because naively, in a way I woke up out of a dead sleep to Tom saying, “We need to go to the hospital.” There's an element of that that I honest to goodness thought I was in a dream. I would wake up, it would be okay, I would wake up, this is just one of those really vivid dreams you have. Unfortunately, not. Once I accepted that reality in that day anyway, I think it took long to truly accept our reality, but knowing that I wasn't in a dream, unfortunately, what you think of is every bad story you've ever heard about cancer and the financial impact it...
Merry and Happy Holidays to everyone listening! We thought we would take a chance on this mini-episode to say thanks to everyone who has supported Quiet Light over the past 11 years – especially over the past year with this podcast. We're also taking this opportunity to go through a year in review and look ahead to 2019. It is truly our pleasure to do what we do and provide you the expertise you need to buy or sell your business. We have plenty more in store in the upcoming year! Episode Highlights: Highlights from the past year. Looking ahead to 2019 with exciting guests queued up. 2018 was a record year for Quiet Light Thanks to all our brokers and veterans at Quiet Light. Quiet Light's referral program. Hear about surprise guest coming up. Success stories are also coming up on the podcast. Transcription: Mark: Merry Christmas Joe. Joe: Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to you Mark. Mark: Happy Holidays, thank you for being so politically sensitive. I really appreciate it. To everyone listening, Happy Holidays … Happy New Year. This is Christmas Day when this is being released so if you're listening to this turn it off, it's Christmas. Actually, listen for about 10 minutes and then you're going to turn it off. We're not going to do a regular podcast episode today because it is Christmas and we want you to be able to spend time with your families and friends. And if you don't celebrate Christmas be able to take a day off while everybody else does as well. We thought we would take advantage of this episode today just to give a quick thanks to everybody that has supported Quiet Light Brokerage over the past 11 years but especially over the past year that I've been supporting this podcast and do a mini year review. So Joe how has your year been? Joe: It's been fantastic. Yeah, I want to say thank you to everyone as well. Thank you to the folks listening to the podcast. This is our first full year right … 2018 we started late in '17. The feedback that you're giving us is fantastic and we feel like the guests that we've had on are really helping which is the most important thing. One of the things that I want to do for 2019 and beyond is do some of those sort of under the hood calls like Mike and Dave do and what the Ecom Crew would do for people that are looking for valuations so we can dissect your businesses in recorded calls. Keeping it confidential, not naming the business but having people see what it's like to go through a valuation because the most important thing I think is to understand what the process is like to someday sell your business. But it's been a great year. Look we've brought Walker Deibel on … Walker and his folks and we like to joke about this recently about Jason's chops about his Bathroom Millionaire book but Walker is truly a bestselling author. He wrote Buy then Build that launched in the fall; a fantastic guy, honest, hardworking, a great addition to the Quiet Light team and then Brad Wayland as well. Brad is unbelievable in terms of what he's accomplishing in terms of the volume of transactions and people that he's helping. These two are going to essentially replace me very quickly in terms of the volume of work that I've done over the years. But then the rest of the team is all coming together and we're just still that. You and I have swapped … talked about boutique brokerage firm. We are in a sense but it's been a great year where we've grown tremendously. Mark: Yeah we don't publish our numbers. I know this is something that some businesses choose to do to publish their numbers publicly. I've always opted not to. No particular reason other than I just haven't seen the specific advantage compared to some of the drawbacks. But I will say this 2018 was by far a record year for Quiet Light Brokerage. We more than doubled in growth this year in terms of the volume of deals that have been done both in total deal value and also in the revenue that Quiet Light Brokerage has brought on board. A lot of this is due to the new brokers that we brought on board over the past few years. It's also due to some of the vets that we have on the team now as well such as Amanda and Jason. Joe and I were just talking before this podcast about how nice it is to have those two on board who have been doing such a phenomenal job. For such a long time they seem to understand this industry just instinctively at this point where they know how just to find a good deal. And that's kind of what being boutique is in a way right? Being able to be selective and knowing what you're taking on board. And I'd be remiss not to also thank Bryan. Not only is he bringing good deal flow and he does a great job for his clients but he also has been helping Quiet Light here on the backend with some projects to help us get better organized, create better business summaries, in continuous to find ways that we can improve our fishing seas. You know when I started Quiet Light Brokerage … about six months after I started Quiet Light Brokerage I went out and I hired five sales people. And I was just looking for people with sales experience because I thought well we're selling businesses I need somebody who can sell. And they all flamed out pretty quickly. Some of them had moderate levels of success, some of them flamed out very quickly, and one by one they kind of dropped off. And it wasn't until Jason came on board and literally bugged me to come on board as a broker that I'd literally stumbled upon this model of having entrepreneurs who have all been there done that and have been successful on their own right. And the result has been pretty amazing because Quiet Light Brokerage is this group of entrepreneurs where I get feedback all the time. Sometimes I really want to tell everyone to shut up but at the end of the day, I get really awesome feedback about what we can do better at Quiet Light. Joe: That feedback is from the brokers, not the buyers and sellers just for clarification purposes. Mark: Yeah, thank you. Buyers and sellers you can tell me anything and please do tell me whatever you want. It's from the different brokers you know because as entrepreneurs what we do? We always find problems with other people's businesses or we think how we could run it better. But it's pretty phenomenal, it's like a built in board of advisors. Joe: Absolutely. Mark: So yeah and guys like Chuck, he gives us great feedback. And Chuck has been with us for a year and a half then. He's one of the best connected brokers that we've brought on in terms of the industry and the relationships that he has. So you're absolutely right it's an incredible team, a board of advisors. Maybe this podcast is turning into a thank you to our team more than anything else. Well, I was actually going to move on from the team because I do want to say thank you to the team. But I just want to say thank you to our past clients and also our buyers and those out there who have been referring business to us. Honestly the referrals, when somebody comes to me and says “Hey I was talking to so and so and they said I should talk to you” it doesn't even have to be about selling their business, it can just be I have a question about my business. Look that's completely something where it's flattering to hear that we're a referred source. So thank you for thinking of us as a resource. For those of you that are referring potential sellers over to us keep in mind, we actually do have a referral program where you can get paid on that referral. I know most of you … the vast majority of you, you don't do it because of that because most of you don't know it exists because we do a terrible job of actually advertising this. But we've received lots of referrals from people where we've done sent them a referral payment and like woah I didn't know this was coming. Joe: But you do that intentionally. You don't advertise it. We don't put it out there. We don't have it on the website because it's kind of fun to have someone refer a client to us, we close that transaction and then we send them a wire form saying “Can you give us your wire details we're going to send you $23,000?” that's kind of fun. Maybe it's selfish on our part and we should talk more about it on the podcast. Hey, we do referrals folks, we pay referral fees. Mark: We do referrals. Just let us know if you give it. Again we know that's not why you're doing it. We don't want you to refer us just for the referral fee we want you to refer us because you think that we're high quality. So thank you and then also to people that took the survey a few weeks ago, thank you for that as well. That's the thank you's unless you have anybody else, Joe. Joe: You know I just looked at Facebook last night and one of our clients posted something of a photo of about five years ago when he was in an airport and he was stuck in the airport with his four year old son and they couldn't afford the taxi fare to get to where they needed to go. Their flight was canceled and they couldn't afford to go back somewhere so they stayed in the airport for the night to catch the flight the next morning because they couldn't afford it. We sold his business for almost 9 million dollars last summer. And for those folks that are in situations like he was 5 years ago stick with it. I had a conversation with somebody this morning that's throwing their hands up in the air and is about to give up. Stick with it. Have faith. Listen to this podcast and the experts that we bring on, the people that are here to help, our entire team. Have a conversation. Pick up the phone and say I'm not ready to sell but I want to get better where should I go? Who should I talk to? What should I listen to? That's … strangely enough yes we get paid to do what we do but for me to read that story this summer and know that I had an impact on that person's life means more to me almost than the job itself. So thank you for allowing us to help you guys make differences in your life and grow and change and impact whether you're a buyer or a seller because that's what we're doing. I think more than anything else Mark is we are having an impact on people's lives and I get a lot from this. So thank you, everyone. Mark: Absolutely. All right let's look ahead real quick to 2019 first in terms of the podcast, the podcast we have some good episodes cued up. I know I have a few really exciting guests queued up ready to go including our number one ever listened episode … downloaded episode. I have that guest coming back on for a reappearance just like to try and take the top two episodes. We'll also be doing an updated SBA in 2019 episodes soon. But I need to get on the calendar still with whoever we're going to bring on for that episode. And then I have a surprise guest from a pretty big company, founder of a pretty big company and we're going to get him on board here for an episode which I think will be pretty exciting for everybody listening. Good stuff coming up Joe. I know you probably have a stable of episodes coming up as well. Joe: Yeah I've got a few coming on with their success stories either as buyers of businesses that they've bought through us and just to look back in the first six months on under ownership, what it's been like and people that have sold. I want some real actionable items and experiences that they could take away from the podcast. And a little bit more of what you're talking about, big guests that have big names but I really should inform or impact. You and I on a whim we didn't have a guest one week and we decided let's just talk and we ended up talking about the things that can improve or plummet the value of your business and now it's in the top 10 podcasts. We need to do more things like that that are actionable and that's one of the goals for 2019. Mark: All right so moving forward we're getting long on this and I want people to get back to their holidays or if you're listening to this the day after be able to get back to families affairs. Families are still in town. So I'm going to wrap it up and just say once again thank you for everything. We're looking forward to 2019 very very much. Our pipelines are very very full so I expect a good amount of deal flow coming out early 2019. Everything continues to seem to be pretty strong right now. Yeah definitely looking for 2019, thank you for 2018 and always feel free to reach out to Joe or myself or any of the members of the team with any sort of feedback; good; bad; otherwise. Direct all bad feedback to Joe all great feedback to me and I think we will be good to go. Joe: All good feedback about me to me that's fine. Mark: All right very good. Merry Christmas. Happy Holidays. Happy New Year. We will see you guys in the next year. Links and Resources: https://www.quietlightbrokerage.com/ Listen and suscribe on Itunes
Is really possible to acquire 101 Amazon FBA businesses in 2 years? At least once a month we receive a query from buyers and sellers about the company this week's guest founded, 101 Commerce, asking who is behind it and if they're going to be able to pull off what they say they will. It is hard to undertake, but of all the people that we've worked with here at Quiet Light, RJ would be the one to do it. He is here today to talk about what that process looks like so far. Richard Jalichandra, known as RJ, got his start in digital entrepreneurship back in 1994 and has been working in the space ever since. He is a CEO five times over, has held senior executive positions, and has generally been around the digital block several times over. While getting ready to retire – which of course hasn't happened – he founded 101 Commerce under the premise that he and his group would buy, invest in, and relaunch 101 niche private label brands on Amazon. RJ has the experience, the funds, and the team in place to make it happen. Stay tuned. Episode Highlights: RJ shares a few of the impressive businesses he's been involved in launching and growing in the past. How he got involved with 101 Commerce. Why the FBA business model attracted him the most. The 101 acquisition plan and how it came together. RJ stresses that this is not a fund, but an operating company. How 101 commerce is striving to create a next-generation CPG company. What top 3 things RJ and his team look for in a business to purchase. Why the person and the story behind the business matter immensely. How long Richard projects it will take to acquire all 101. RJ stresses the importance of the seller's over package and presentation of a well-run company. Why he recommends using brokers and seasoned experts for efficient due diligence and transaction processes. RJ's shares thoughts on brand expansion potential and tariff hikes. Why solid, prosperous deals need both a good seller and a good buyer to make them work. Transcription: Mark: It's probably at least once per month that I get an email about a certain company in our industry that seems to be making waves and the general question that I get … and actually I've just got this email a few days ago from somebody else that has been our podcast and I won't say who it was but asking who are these guys over 101 Commerce and are they going to be able to do what they keep saying that they're going to try and do? Joe I know you talked to RJ over at 101 Commerce, people that we know pretty well at this point and you talked about what they're doing. Joe: Yeah you know it's pretty incredible. His ability to network and we've done a podcast on networking and I'm telling you just a year ago I spoke to him and he came out of the blue and called me and said this is what we're trying to do and I told him that he was nuts. We laughed a little bit. I really should have looked him up on LinkedIn before I told him he was nuts because he's one impressive guy. What he's accomplished, what he's achieved in the companies that he's built I had him rattle them off after he did his intro. And I said stop being humble name names here and everybody listening will know some of the names that he named. But yeah they're pulling it off. Their goal is to buy 101 Amazon FBA businesses. They love the platform. They love the fact that it's got built in traffic and easy advertising platform and all they have to do is focus on a few things versus driving traffic which Amazon does for them. And I think they're going to pull it off. It's not going to happen in 24 months which was the original goal but they're well on the way. I tried to nail him down on the time frame and he was a little wishy washy on the amount of time it would take. Mark: Well I know the question I get from people on this all the time is isn't even possible to do what they're doing? Buy 101 companies within 24 months or even if it's 36 months. I mean could you buy that many companies? And my experience in this has been that I've seen people try to do this in the past, I've seen people try to acquire multiple businesses and roll them together and build this portfolio and they always end up running into buying a dog here and there. Or having an issue come up or trying to expand the team that quickly. So my response to people, who's pretty much universal … and RJ if you're listening to this, hopefully, you're listening to this, I'll tell you exactly what I tell everyone. It's really really hard to do but out of the people that I've met, he's probably the one person I would bet on being able to do this. And so I'm like a lot of other people I kind of grab my popcorn and I'm sitting back and I'm watching because this is really fascinating to watch them go through. How many are they up to right now as far as acquisitions that they've completed? Joe: I think the last time we chatted and we didn't get into specific numbers on the podcast but the last time we chatted I think it was about 14 brands and they're trying to get their systems and their processes in place and bring on more and more people. We ended up doing I think eight businesses for 14 brands with a total of three people. And then they realized we need to have some operations here and build some systems and processes so they've been hiring like crazy; and some really really talented people. So I'm with you. I think if anybody can pull it off … there's a few that I think could, but I think RJ and his team are one of them. We've had some other folks that are doing similar things as you know that have purchased a couple from us; Brad, in particular, has sold two to them recently but I think they'll pull it off. I think it will take longer than the 24 to 36 months. And I'd be betting on more from beginning to end maybe a total of 60 months. It's a big undertaking. Mark: Yeah and folks I want to say that again how many in how long? Joe: 101 businesses. Mark: No how many have they done so far? Joe: Oh 14 brands. Essentially eight purchases but within that there are … I believe there are 14 brands. And that has been less than a year. I think the first one happened early in the summertime. So it's really less than six months. Mark: Absolutely incredible and we're seeing this from a few different places. I know we had Shakil Prasla on quite a while ago now. I'm talking about how many he's bought, and he's bought more since we had him on. At that point, it amassed eight different companies … acquisitions that he had done over just a few years. So there are ways to do this. And by the way, Shakil's method is different than what RJ and 101 is doing. So there are a few different paths towards building up this portfolio and really scaling up pretty quickly. A fascinating example of somebody doing this at scale within the industry and definitely I'm sure this going to pop up there as one of the more popular episodes. Joe: So let's you and I stop talking about it and hear what RJ has to say. Mark: Sounds great. Joe: Today's guest is Richard Jalichandra … actually RJ. How are you doing today RJ? RJ: I'm doing great Joe. How are you? Joe: I'm fantastic. Good to see you. Hey, let's do the thing where you tell everybody about you instead of making me read the script. Can you give everybody some background on yourself? RJ: Yeah I'm an old digital entrepreneur. I dig my gut onto the internet in January of '94 building my first website for an agency client and I've been doing it ever since. I've done a whole bunch of different things. I'm a five time CEO now but I also hold senior executive positions at a whole bunch of venture and PE backed companies. So I just kind of have been around the block for quite a while. And then I tried to retire last year and then something I think you're probably going to ask me about kind of like I got a bug in my ear and back to your podcast got in my ear a few times and maybe influenced my current gig. But yeah recently we founded 101 Commerce and essentially what 101 is doing is we're buying, investing, and launching theoretically 101 niche ecommerce privately. We're running it on Amazon and we're a little bit into it as you know. Joe: A little bit. I remember that first conversation we had. Some guy named RJ called me out of the blue. I should have looked you up on LinkedIn before I told you you were nuts because that's exactly what I said. Do you remember the conversation? RJ: Yup. Joe: You're nuts. You're going to buy 101 Amazon businesses and you're going to run them, operate them, build a staff around that. You're crazy. RJ: You weren't the only one. Joe: You might still be crazy but you're pulling it off. Well, listen you're being very humble here in terms of your background. Come on share some of the businesses that you started and you rank them. Its name dropping please do it so that everybody knows. RJ: Well some of the ones that are … I mean depending on what your flavor is whether it's fitness or video games or … yeah let's see a couple, I mean I've done a bunch of things but the one that have seemed to kind of ring a bell on everybody, the video game space I was one of the senior executives of the company called IGN Entertainment where we ran a massive gaming network that have reached 50 million dudes; 13 to 34 year old dudes at the month. And famously of all the acquisitions I did, they are the one that always delights people at cocktail parties with Rotten Tomatoes. So I did a bunch of acquisitions there but Rotten Tomatoes is kind of the one that I can throw out there. And also everybody is like wow you did Rotten Tomatoes. I'm like no I didn't found it but I did buy it. I'm really good friends with the founders of it still today. And then let's see … I ran something called Technorati which at one point was a social media darling until a small search engine company in Nutview did some things that made it very hard to compete from other search engines. And then I ran- Joe: [inaudible 00:07:56.2] name. RJ: No we won't name any names but yeah, just some small company in Nutview. And then let's see, after that, I did a fitness company called Map My Fitness which was then sold Under Armour. I mean that was a really successful fitness set of apps Map My Run and Map My Ride [inaudible 00:08:14.8] doing the cardio, a lot of people touched those at some point. And then I did a company nobody ever heard of. I was an enterprise media space … advertising media space; I'm running behind the brands. I sold that in 2014 and then I tried to retire then. And then I decided to do one more fitness gig and was the CEO of BodyBuilding.com and then that led to my second retirement attempt. Then here we go. Joe: Maybe the third time will be a charm. I think the list of businesses you just mentioned probably touched on 90% of the people listening know of at least one if not more of those especially the Map My Fitness and all that good stuff. All right so about … what 18 months ago now? Or no it's less than a year ago or about a year ago you and I had a conversation and you said hey look I'm reaching out, we're putting together a fund. We're going to buy 101 Amazon businesses. Why? Why are you focused on Amazon? Why are you not retiring like most sane people would do when they have the ability … no, I'll skip that, why are you buying 101 Amazon businesses? What's the theory? What's the plan? What's the concept? RJ: Well I'll back up a little bit and kind of tell you how I stumbled into it. Joe: Okay. RJ: So I mean I was going to try and retire. I'm still young enough though. I figured at some point I might jump back into a CEO chair or something like that but I promised my wife I was going to take two years off. No W2ing, just literally going to play golf, mountain bike, have some fund, raise my daughter, advise, maybe do some angel investing. And that was kind of the plan but I was also I go and I ever do want to get back in the chair will be kind of hard to do. I just was really on the beach for two years and not really educating myself. So I had this idea that I was going to buy a solopreneur 4-hour workweek business which I'm sure you've heard that one a few times in your job. Joe: A couple of times. RJ: A couple of times today but that was literally the goal. It was to buy a 4-hour workweek gig. Joe: Yeah. RJ: And so hence I wanted something that was at least a couple of years old. So somebody else has already done all the hard work, done the early stage startups. I know how hard they are to get things off the ground. I wanted something that was more matured and seasoned where I was more twisting knobs than actually lifting heavy boxes. Joe: Yeah. RJ: I looked at a whole bunch of stuff, not just Amazon businesses. I looked at SaaS, content; I have a lot of experience in content. I sold a SaaS company. I looked at lead gen, affiliate, and I looked at digital content. I was on the board of a company called Click Think which a bunch of your listeners have probably heard of as well. I was the chairman there so I knew a lot about NAT ecosystems. I was looking at all whole bunch of different things and I kept coming back to Amazon FBA. And the more I dug in on it I was just kind of blown away by the operating leverage that you get out of Amazon FBA. I mean essentially as I explained it to people when I'm trying to fish investors or just tell people I'm doing this you know my last real job we had 800 employees, 6 fulfillment centers, 500 people on the warehouse and you have to generate your own traffic. We had to spend tens of millions of dollars on advertising and all that. Essentially with Amazon FBA, you outsource all those hard things. You don't have to worry about fulfillment. You certainly don't have to worry about traffic because you have 300 million of the highest converting consumers there are. So … and then, of course, the advertising platform is built-in. The customer service system is built-in. So basically I kept meeting and hearing about and listening to [inaudible 00:12:01.8] podcast including yours, people who are essentially running these really good businesses had really good net margins. And I wouldn't be shocked you know there's a plenty of people kind of running sub 1 million dollar businesses but every once in a while I meet somebody running a 15 million dollar business and was essentially a sole proprietor with a couple of VA's and they're running at 30% net. I'd scratch my head and go wow that's a way better business model than setting up your own ecommerce site and got in your head against you know Google and Facebook and trying to get traffic as well as having to compete against an Amazon itself why not lean into it, take advantage of that operating leverage, and see if you can build something that was incredibly profitable at scale. Joe: What about the risks? A lot of folks that I talked to are saying no, no, no, I don't want to buy an Amazon business. I think there's too much competition. It's too much risk and Amazon might pull the rug out from underneath me. They may just decide someday they don't want any more seller accounts or third party sellers. What do you have to say to those folks? RJ: You're right. Just go away. Don't look at Amazon businesses. Leave them all for us. Joe: You know what my answer is there are people out there like RJ that are a lot smarter than me that are doing it so there must be something okay with it. RJ: Look I mean there is no doubt there's proper risk of course. But when I was out in the open web there was platform risk as well. I've had Google like I said destroy one of the highest profile companies that I was at. Oh did I say that name? I shouldn't have said that. But I mean in other places and I've seen it happen and- Joe: It's okay don't worry about it. RJ: Okay, all right. Joe: The panda update, the penguin update they've all have affected … those have affected probably again 90% of the people listening so it's okay. They're probably happy. RJ: So everybody knows what I'm talking about. Joe: Yes. RJ: There is platform risk wherever you go. And even in today's thing where Google doesn't have quite the sway they used to, now you have Facebook and Instagram risk because those are the big traffic drivers of other third party traffic sources and stuff. So you're always going to have platform risk. And I just got comfortable with it because the FBA and the marketplace ecosystem on Amazon is literally what's driving its growth right now. I mean if you look at all the stats behind the curtains or whatever, it's driving the growth. And if you look at 20 years of operating history and behavioral study on Jeff Bezos he usually doesn't throttle things that are growing like a wheat. Joe: That's true. He doesn't. That's a good point. That's the answer I'm going to use from now on when people ask me about that risk. All right so in terms of- RJ: But I will make it clear there's a lot of stupid things you can that gets you into trouble and then there's some inadvertent things that could happen to you that do present risk. I don't want to make it sound like- Joe: It's not risk free. RJ: It's not risk free and we certainly are going into this with our eyes wide open knowing that even the best laid plan, buy 100 of these things who knows what happens. There's a portfolio theory and it goes both ways; good and bad. Joe: Right now Mark had an expert on from a PE firm in the last podcast maybe and I actually listened to it yesterday. By the time this this airs it's probably 3 or 4 weeks ago and the concept was buy them at a certain multiple pull them together and it's worth more automatically. We've all talked about that concept. Is that what struck you initially in addition to the scalability because of the platform itself? RJ: Well the first thing you should do is you should introduce me to that guy and we should get to know each other because there may be something we could do. The second thing is … I mean there's more to it than that. If it was just a financial arbitrage I probably wouldn't be that interested in it. There's a lot of places where you can do financial arbitrage. I love ecommerce so first off that just gets me from a personal standpoint. But what I like is just knowing that they're with resources, working capital, domain expertise, specialty expertise, how much you can grow these things is really kind of what interests me. I guess I'm not just interested in the financial arbitrage. I would correct something else that you said kind of the outset that we raised a fund. A lot of people think that's kind of what we do because they don't understand the PE and venture markets. But I would absolutely categorize us not as a fund. We are absolutely an operating company that works closely with venture and private equity funds. Joe: Yeah it's fine. We're trying to put a label on you recently and what you do and what some other folks are doing and it's … I mean it's … well, what is the label? You're just a company that happened to get some that you went out and raised money and are investing it in Amazon businesses. Is there an official label for your type of organization or is there not? RJ: Well what we're trying to do is create a next generation CPG company. Joe: CPG stands for? RJ: Consumer Packaged Goods, more than a CPG because Amazon obviously sells more. But essentially what we're doing is we're putting together a portfolio … a wide and broad portfolio of niche private label brands that sell predominantly; not exclusively but predominantly on Amazon. And that's really what it is. It's a multi-brand platform. You could think of it as any multi-brand consumer goods company like a Procter & Gamble or something like that. Joe: Okay so not unlike our friend Bill D'Alessandro at Elements Brands and what he's doing but it's a little bit more specialty niche and- RJ: Absolutely. Joe: That's what you focus on on Amazon. Okay. RJ: No and I love what Bill's doing too but it's very similar. He has a multi-brand strategy although he's taken a little more narrow focus than we are. Joe: Absolutely. Okay, let's talk for the sellers that are listening what is it that you and your team look for? What pops out to make you go I love that opportunity? Is it brand, is it gross margins, is it workload, is it … what three or four things do you generally look for when you're looking at one of these opportunities? RJ: I mean the first three things that we look at when we're just doing the highest level screens like when you send materials out we're just looking for a couple of really broad things. Because there's a lot of this for sale, between your guy's brands … absolutely a great deal flow. Joe's probably going to work at the Senate at some point but of our first cohort, almost 50% of the deals set were from Quiet Light so thank you for that. You guys do a great job. Joe: Thank you. RJ: With that said, some of your competitors also do a really good job putting together great materials and all that. So we're evaluating stuff. We're trying to screen just the sheer volume of things that come through the door. So we look at gross margin and net margin that tells us kind of a lot about the health of a business and what the opportunities are. But of course on Amazon the currency there is reviews so we're looking for what we term review restructure. It's not really a good phrase because what it really means is your relative strength, the velocity of reviews, quality of the reviews, how the reviews were generated. But right up the bat what we're trying to do is look at those three broad metrics to decide if we want to dig deeper or not. Joe: Okay and once you find a business that checks all of those boxes do you then go and jump right to the financial conversations with the sellers or do you say okay what platforms, are they selling in the US or can I expand internationally? Is there something else like a growth opportunity that sort of takes it over the top? RJ: Well one of the other things I love about what the materials you guys send us and some of … again some of your other- Joe: Include the competitors because this isn't about padding Quiet Light Brokerage. RJ: No, no, no I mean- Joe: And I won't pull a quote out of this just for the record. No, I'm kidding I- RJ: No, I'm good sorry. It's not just you but the other top brokers and guys that really put together quality materials and stuff. It really does save us a lot of time because normally you got to do a screen call before you even want to setup a call with somebody. Because of the interviews that you guys do you get to hear a little bit of the narrative. I think this is something that people forget when they're trying to sell businesses or sell anything; story and narrative is really important. If you basically have a very good narrative for everything from how you originally … what you did before you even started the business and then how that morphed into a business that narrative is really important for me to hear. And it's really important when I'm out pitching our investors as well. There's a lot of investment opportunities, a lot of money floating around and whatever but they want to know … they kind of want to hear your story and how the whole thing kind of morphed into what it is. And the same thing when I'm looking at even the smallest Mom-and-Pop business I've ever bought, I want to know about them. Where they're from, what they did in the previous career, and then how all of a sudden this thing kind of caught fire. Because that's really the moment like most of the things that cross those three bars, the first initial bars. Joe: Yeah. RJ: Somehow or another they've gotten some critical mass. They figured something out. In spite of the fact they might not have a working capital, they might not be a rocket scientist or an expert on PPC or fulfillment or something, they figured something out and that's kind of what we want to hear in that narrative. Joe: And the person behind the business I think is what you're saying matters tremendously it's not the numbers. RJ: Absolutely. So in addition to that narrative, the way they present that narrative tells you a lot about them whether or not … and again you can get this just by reading your memorandums. You can kind of get whether they're out for a quick walk or they're kind of at the end of their line and maybe just running out of gas and it's time for them to kind of move on and hand it to somebody who has even more gas. And it's also part of that narrative is getting me excited about the product category or something like that. But it tells you and then, of course, you're going to get to the … I know you're going to ask this but by the time we actually get on the phone with somebody or in video or whatever one of the most important things that I understand if a person is … a person integrity. Are they honest? It's often kind of like when you get on that first call, it's usually not in the books. Occasionally it's in one of the books but usually, on that first call a really honest person is telling you okay here's all the warts, here's all the things that aren't going well, you need to be addressed, I wish I could do better that kind of thing. So I think that's really important. So narrative and then the integrity comes out in that and then certainly I want to know … don't ever try and kind of hide the bad stuff because if you tell a great story and then you get indulgence and then all of a sudden the warts start appearing and you're like well you didn't tell me about that then there's an integrity. Joe: Yeah and you lose that trust. And this is not rocket science for the maybe the other brokers that are listening or people that are trying to sell their own business on their own. It's important to act with full disclosure and ask those questions and answer them thoroughly so that when you do get on that phone call that trust is continued to be built. And as I say … look creating a great package is not the hard part, connecting with great buyers like yourself RJ is not the hard part. Going at a letter of intent is not the hard part. The hard part is getting from letter of intent all the way through due diligence to closing. And if you do everything right, free LOI that becomes easier. Things still go off the rails. You and I had one go off the rails a little bit this summer and it got back on but it helps tremendously with full disclosure and trust being built and the people behind the business acting with integrity. It's not just the numbers. RJ: Right and the other thing you get and by those disclosures too is we also start operating the business pretty close. And I think that's a really important thing. I mean you're not operating a business but you're starting to think like the operator. Joe: I was going to say we don't … you don't get any control of anything- RJ: No but you're mentally putting yourself in the shoes of having a steering wheel in your hip. Joe: Right. RJ: And I think that's really important because it gives you a lot more confidence to get to the finish line. Joe: So let's talk about that and 101's operations. When you buy a business from a solopreneur or someone who has a small staff or VA's are you generally … and I know the answer to this, are you generally taking it over completely or are you bringing them on to help operate the business with you? RJ: That's a TBD I mean it really depends on the entrepreneur and the situation. Frankly, there are some people that they're just done. They want to go do something else. Joe: Yeah. RJ: This was their side hustle. They really love what they're doing. They may have financial reasons that they want to get out. We are looking for the rare entrepreneur and then the other thing is they can even want to jump on our boat but they may not have the right personality to be in a really high speed tech thing where you got to work as part of a team and any time we put more people together. They're humans and things don't always work right when humans interact even with the best of intentions. So it really is a TBD thing. If there are … in our first cohort we were probably looking to just take the businesses and actually create kind of a sandbox with these where we can build what I call platformization of the company; people, processes, frameworks, technology that allow us to go do this another hundred times and a hundred times after that. So with that said the first eight businesses that we bought we now have … I wouldn't call, I call it two principals have joined us from those eight. One was an owner and one was literally the guy who's like the GM who is running the business. Joe: Okay. They're going to help you with the other … what 93 that you buy, is that the plan and the goal? RJ: Yeah. 93 is the next milestone and then we'll see what happens after that. Joe: You're going to do that in 2019 or is it going to take a little longer? RJ: It's probably going to take a little longer then. Joe: Okay, I'll help as much as I can. RJ: I know you will. Joe: Talk to us about the importance of having a good presentation at package together before you ever get on that phone call in terms of … look I mean to be blunt you and I talked about you coming on the podcast a while ago and I said no. I said it didn't make sense because I didn't want people reaching out to you directly. And then I saw you up on the stage at Brand Builders Summit, you advocate now of a few different things. One is working with brokers because everything is handed to you kind of on a silver platter but then I think also you've talked about specific attorneys and things of that nature. What are those few things that you say now that you've learned and you've got a certain amount of deals under your belt that you're going to sort of also not just in terms of the business three check boxes but your processes going forward for somebody that is also maybe building a portfolio even if it's a smaller content site portfolio things of this nature, what certain things are you trying to put in place like working with brokers, like working with certain attorneys, and things of that nature, anything? RJ: Yeah no gosh you just hit on the mother lode there. Let's go in no particular order but let's start off first with the broker no broker question. So people heard about what we were doing, the word kind of got out there and frankly, we had hundreds of leads that came in through our website. A very few of those were for a surprising number that would have crossed kind of our minimum thresholds and something we would have been interested in. But when we do a deal like that we have to do a heck of a lot more work. A lot more work. And it's kind of hard pressed to sift through that. If they don't come with their own package, financials, a really good narrative, good transparency, it's going to be a lot of work for us. And most people don't know how to sell a business. I mean let's just call it like they make selling business hard. So we're happy; very happy to work with brokers because we feel there's a couple of things that brokers do. You validate a deal for us. I mean basically, you're not just going to take … your time is valuable; you have other opportunities and things like that. So we know that you're already in a little bit of a quality … you're checking a quality box. And then, of course, you help in put together really nice financials and things like that; things that you know are going to make it really fast for us to kind of do that. And then I'd say another really important thing for a buyer to consider and then we're going to link with a lawyer or other professional services because frankly brokers pride in professional service. When you're selling a business for the first time or even a second time, third time, fourth time, fifth time, but certainly the first time … if you've never done it before it is going to be emotionally traumatic. Joe: I know you're going to go there. It is so emotional. RJ: And it's your baby. It's your baby and guys on the other side of the table they're professionals and they do this for a living or whatever and it's not that you're going to feel like you're outmatched. It's just you've never been through it before and it's incredibly stressful. And some buyers are going to ask … they've got investors and they require them to check a whole bunch of boxes before they actually write a check. So they're going to ask you to check all those boxes too and that can be incredibly stressful. So having a shoulder to cry on i.e your broker and play- Joe: Or vent to. RJ: It's not … no that's it, a lot of it is just like I cannot tell you … I mean I have bought a small business once, probably 15 years ago … 14 years ago. I bought a small business that wasn't represented by a broker and I am not exaggerating when I tell you I hired him a therapist. Because otherwise, we're not getting … neither of us is going to get what we want because the guy is going to fall apart. And so I have a feeling a lot of people probably underestimate just how hard the emotional side of getting a seven figure deal done. There's a lot at stake on both sides of the table and [inaudible 00:30:59.4]. So there's a lot there. Of course, you guys do a lot on just the sheer process side that is there but I would say that's an underestimated really big value thing. Just being the therapist through the whole process. Joe: Yeah it takes a good buyer too; a good broker, a good buyer. But what about the attorney side of it? You've had some experiences with great attorneys and maybe some tough ones too. What is your view in terms of that aspect? I think you actually … you and I talked to at one point where you're going to do … are you still considering requiring your sellers to work with a select group of attorneys that you know have ecommerce experience? RJ: Yes. So and before I even get to that I would just give this is a huge bit of advice to any seller. Do not use your family attorney. Joe: Well there's … I mean I have an unwritten rule that if somebody comes to me and they want me to sell their business I ask them point blank do you have an attorney and are they related? Is it your mother, brother, father, sister, cousin, aunt, uncle, etcetera? Because I had an experience where I had someone that was a few years out of grad school, they started a business in college. We got the business under a lot of intent, over asking price and it was a few years ago so I was fairly new RJ. But his mentor in grad school was an attorney, my trade. His fiancée was in law school and his mother and father were attorneys. The deal blew up. It was a one sided contract and there was absolutely no way to fix it. And the buyer was fantastic it was very fair. It was fantastic, it blew up, went away and I learned that lesson. So what you're saying right now to anybody that wants to have a relative as an attorney it's a really bad idea because they're going to fight like rabid dogs for things that don't necessarily matter and kill the deal for you. Is that what you- RJ: Yeah … no, I would take it even a step further. I actually wouldn't mind if they were your family attorney if they happen to be an ecommerce lawyer because the domain expertise is also really important. You can't just take somebody even if they've done M&A that they sold dry cleaner chains or something like that. Ecommerce and digital assets are just different and so if you don't have a lawyer who has the domain expertise we're probably going to have issues because we're going to have to spend a lot of time educating. So I would highly recommend … and look Joe can recommend, most of the brokers have their stables of good recommended lawyers. But just because you have a lawyer, maybe you have a good business lawyer don't necessarily use that one. Look for somebody with the exact domain expertise of what you're getting into. And then the last thing I'd say about lawyers is lawyers love to point score. I mean this is kind of what they got graded on in law school when they're doing all that. They like point scoring and the one thing … a bit of advice I give to anybody who hires a lawyer is remember the lawyer works for you, not the other way around. So you need to watch whether they're going into point scoring mode just for the sake of wining points. And you have to understand it's not 100 points in a deal. It's usually like four or five that matter. And yet there's the long contracts, it's four or five that matter and then may be one or that lean or important to you and that's kind of what you need to focus on. Make sure you that manage your lawyers so that they know what's important to you. And they're not worried in section 17 and 19 where it's [inaudible 00:34:40.3] and crossing tees and that some warranties and things. Joe: I agree 100%. If I could look back at all the transactions, for the most part, the buyers are good people, the sellers are good people, and if we lived in a different world they could shake hands and the deal would be done. RJ: Yup. Joe: You do have to have contracts. We do have to have attorneys but it needs to be a fair and balanced deal for both parties. It's … I've only had one deal fall apart because of the attorney and it was, in fact, that situation that I just mentioned. Let's talk for a minute and jump over to owning an Amazon business for the people that are buying. We talked about what you look for from sellers but from people that are buying what are your thoughts on if it's 100% US based Amazon business and they've got the capital? In your opinion and experience now should they look at either expanding these skews in the US or maybe looking at the EU and different market places or does it simply depend upon the brand? RJ: I think it's highly contextual. Every situation is going to be very different. There's a ton of these Amazon podcasts that say skew expansion and international expansion which both require working capital. I don't think it's as simple as that. I think you really have to kind of look I have met people literally in the last month where they tried to go overseas and failed miserably because their product category just wasn't appropriate for European market or whatever market. So I think it really is highly dependent there. But it's certainly worth investigating. One of the things I like about Amazon is that you can experiment relatively cheaply for thousands if not low tens of thousands of dollars where you may not get hurt too badly if you made a big mistake. Essentially taking existing products and doing a small MOQ and launching it in Europe, if it fails miserably again if you have the right gross margin structure you're probably not going to lose money [inaudible 00:36:36.9] an opportunity cost. But look if you're going to be successful … I mean you've said this on your podcast you got to take some swings at the play and you're not going to always hit the ball. Joe: Got you. All right let's talk about another big fear given that you're an expert in this space now and you own … I'm not going to say exactly how many and neither are you probably, let's say more than 10 brands and FBA businesses altogether. How big is your fear of potential tariffs getting your individual brands? Does it keep you up at night? Does it hit every single brand or certain categories? Can you just touch on that as an owner in the space now? RJ: Sure. It's really also is highly dependent on your exposure to Chinese manufacturing. So yeah … so we certainly have our fair share of products that are manufactured in China. It's certainly something that we are monitoring and we are thinking about. At the same time … and Joe you know this personally, we've expanded rapidly into Europe. We own two European businesses now and so we will look at it later to expand it even more with Chinese based products as we go into Europe. Look I mean- Joe: [inaudible 00:37:47.1] Europe and not being impacted. Is that … okay, and will you have an opportunity? Have you done the financials? Does it make sense if you do that and shift from China to Europe to then import from Europe to the US and avoid the tariffs or is that just simply too much cost shipping wise? RJ: Oh that's a great idea, Joe. You should come work for us in our supply chain. Joe: No thanks I'm not that deep though you've got smarter guys than me. I know one of them … a lot of them actually. Is it something you guys are already working on and something you've crunched the numbers on? Come on I know you probably have. RJ: I think it's still early days and look we're thinking about it a lot. We're thinking about well … I mean it's too Wednesday about it. Everybody gets it. Everybody is all level playing field but it's not that simple. If it changes the price dramatically where there's price elasticity of demand issues in the category that can just impact overall demand. So look we're worried about it. We're hoping that it gets resolved and most of the time what you see in these geo political things is they usually the small period of exposure and everybody actually finally sits down and see when we get to the problem fixed. So that's what we're hoping for knock on wood. Joe: Let's both do it. Everybody else do it now as well. All right let's talk about a first, at least a first for me and I think a first for Quiet Light Brokerage although we've got a second in place now and it may happen before we close. On a transaction that we did together we actually instead of selling or transferring control of the Amazon seller account entirely we tested and successfully moved a brand from a well-established existing seller account took VA's in and tested it in another account that you happened to own. Can you talk about that a little bit for those … and I'll tell you why, because there's always a fear. Some people want to keep their seller account in particular over in the European markets. For some reason, some people are a little bit more fearful in some other countries. For some it's a legitimate fear, others I would say not but we tested that and it … can you just touch on that and what you did there and what you prefer whether it's buying a brand and moving it into your own seller accounts or buying the seller account entirely? And what the difference is between the two for you got. RJ: Yeah no, no, no, we'll just talk about the actual experience. So yeah we were certainly … we had our own questions, the exact process that we used was we did a test. So we didn't move all of the Asense over at once. We took three Asense, a top selling Asense, a medium selling Asense, and actually, it was two medium selling Asense and one longer tail Asense. I didn't want to jeopardize or risk a top selling Asense and until we moved into this other seller account. It was not equal. It wasn't too far behind. But it was definitely a smaller seller account than the one where they originated from. Joe: Were the reviews on the second seller account that you moved it into were the seller account reviews better or worse than the one you were moving it from? RJ: Worse. Joe: Worse, okay. RJ: They weren't bad but that's a worse- Joe: 4 ½ to 4 or something, okay. Sorry I had to clarify. RJ: Yeah I think it was like 2000 like 1200 or something overall reviews. Joe: Okay. RJ: But look the product reviews go with the Asense. So that's a really important thing in a seller account. If you are selling 3rd party products, you're selling Nike's and there are 20 other vendors on Nike's and you're fighting for the buy box, then your seller rating is a heck of a lot more important than the case for your private label. I know that's important- Joe: The big mystery and big unknown that so many experienced Amazon sellers people that are doing half a million or a million dollars a month is we don't know how important those seller account reviews are. When you … I mean obviously they're important in some way but when you go from 4 stars to 4 ½ and 4 ½ to 5. So, in this case, you moved some of the Asense over, obviously the review … product reviews carried over and if … was it a … I think we did a three week test and talk about how it turned out and we ended up closing the transaction. RJ: It was a 15 day test and then we extended it for a couple of days so it was just under three weeks and the seller was awesome. He is super cooperative. We were also risk averse as he was risk averse. We are risk averse so we really cooperated well to see if we could make the test as well. The other thing we had to replicate is GPC campaigns so they were identical. Joe: Yeah. Was that an automated process or a manual process? RJ: I didn't do it myself Joe so I can't tell you the exact process. I try and keep my hands where they're good and that's not one of them Joe: Okay. RJ: But from what I understand the seller actually created these campaigns for us and literally proved that it was a cut and paste. And then our team put it into our seller account. And then he had access to our seller account too … or viewing access or whatever so that he could make sure that it was setup. Because like I said he always intended to make it work. Joe: Yeah. RJ: So he wanted it to work and we had a couple of checks in there on our side to make sure that there's no way [inaudible 00:43:15.2] the situation even though we didn't really have any fear with him in particular. But it is something that you want to like at least have a couple of safeguards that somebody is not running a big Facebook campaign and juice in the results or something like that. Joe: All right so just for point of clarification for everybody listening the typical way that an Amazon business transfers is that the entire seller account transfers. Generally, in asset sales, the new owner takes control of the seller account and you're left with an empty shell of your corporation. What we did in this situation was move the Asense from one seller account to another. All the product reviews carried over. The seller account wasn't as high quality. We tested it out for a few weeks in a few ways and duplicated the sponsored account. And it turned out great. The seller has to help and it's in their best interest. And this is the big picture thing here Richard, it takes … and you talked about it throughout here, it takes a good buyer and a good seller to make a deal work. It's … nothing is cut and dried, there is lots of emotions involved in the process when you're selling and even for a first time buyer. Some people are putting their life savings on the line and they want to make the right choice so emotions run high all across the board. And it's never a winner take all situation, both a buyer and seller have to be happy at the closing table. It begins way back at the initial call and building a good package and managing your own personal brand and reputation. Doing the right thing as a seller and thinking someday maybe you're going to exit; maybe you're going to pass it on to your kids. Either way, you want to pass on something really great because if your kids take it over you want them to be successful because it may be your retirement money. And if you pass it on to someone else you're willing as a buyer Richard … RJ to pay more for a company that is really tidy and neat and you're able to just take off with it as opposed to sifting through the details and fixing things first I would imagine, right? RJ: Yeah and I'm going to say something that my team would probably kick me into shins over but I fundamentally believe this. And my mentor who kind of trained me in my career he always said always be willing to overpay for a great asset because the good ones are hard to find. And as you were saying that … so again if somebody is really running a great business we're not going to get in a pissing match over a couple of tens of a multiple or something like that. Because ultimately that's a great asset, we know what we're going to be able to do with it downstream and those are going to be rounding errors or something when we look back. You mentioned as you were saying that one of the things I'd like to remind sellers too is that I'm sure you kind of educate them as you bring them on board but there's a lot of these businesses out there. In 2017 Amazon announced that there was 20 thousand 501 million dollar sellers so there's a lot of choices; even if we're only trying to buy 100 of them. Joe: Did you just read Walker's book? What's going on here? You just quoted him exactly. And maybe you guys are reading the same stuff. Walker Diebel has published a book called Buy than Build. RJ: Yeah. Joe: Yes Buy than Build, you're not quoting him you're just quoting- RJ: No, no, no, if you read my narrative you would hear that. But I think what I'm getting at though is don't be a pain in the ass because we've got that 400 businesses in 60 days and we put … in that first 60 days we put eight in the LOI and then we bought a few more and whatever. My point is that at some point in this when we had a couple of your early ones get difficult, I remember being … Keith and Chris, they're sitting there I'm listening to a conference call with a seller and a broker and I literally got up on the whiteboard and I got in giant letters and I wrote NEXT! and that became kind of a mantra. If you're not acting your job well … it's not even if you're a jerk or whatever but if you're not acting that you have your buttons up there's a lot of another choice out there. And the same goes if you're a really good asset there's a lot of choice for you to who you sell to as well. If you're a really well run business and you're dealing with a jerk tell your broker find me the next one. Joe: Well let me say this you're saying to the sellers don't be a pain in the ass. To the buyers, the seller does have choices. The first time I was on a conference call with Keith we were on the call late at night with Max. Max was over in Europe and Keith was so professional, so good, so likable to the point where when the call was done my seller wanted to Keith to be the buyer. He did calls with other buyers. He wanted Keith to be the buyer and 101 Commerce. That is what you want to accomplish buyers on those conference calls. You want that seller to go I choose you because you're not alone and the one that wants to buy a great business. And that's hopefully what a lot of folks listening that are owners of the Amazon FBA business, and ecommerce, and SaaS businesses, content business in general. It really doesn't matter if you want to build a great asset and build a great reputation for yourself so that guys like RJ and Keith and other great professional buyers are willing to pay you maximum value for your business in a seamless, painless, exciting process so everybody prospers at the end. RJ you're awesome. I look forward to working with you for the next 24 months no more because you're going to buy 93 in 24 months and then you're done right? RJ: Yeah [inaudible 00:49:05.2]. Joe: All right I'll work with you as long as you choose to work with us here at Quiet Light Brokerage. RJ: Or eventually at some point, I'm going to find somebody smarter than me to run this and then I'll come work with you guys. Joe: There you go. Well, it's a privilege talking with you. Thanks so much for your time. RJ: Awesome. Joe: I appreciate it. RJ: Okay, thanks, Joe. Take care. Links and Resources: 101 Commerce
I've seen Ezra Firestone speak at events, online, and in his “how to” courses. But until I got to chat with him one on one for 30 minutes about work/life balance, did I realize he's the next Tony Robbins (OK, of the ecommerce world, and without the banana hands.) No kidding, Ezra is inspiring and full of passion. And he does what he does (rock 30 million a year in revenues without breaking a sweat) while giving back to others, focusing on family, and taking care of his health. If you're are a corporate exec wanting to live the ecommerce lifestyle, Ezra's approach is spot on. If you are an ecommerce owner and want to be the “navigator” of your business instead of the jack of all trades, listen and try to really hear what Ezra is saying. It will make a difference in your business, your bank account and your family life. Episode Highlights: Highlights from Ezra's unique upbringing and how he grew up with e-commerce. We follow the journey of his professional life from poker to yoga to where he is today, earning thirty million per year in revenue. Ways the apprenticeship model can be beneficial to young entrepreneurs. Ezra reveals the pivotal moment where he understood the freedom he could achieve from acquiring a skill and mastering it. How Ezra found his “mastery” in e-commerce after trying several things. Every type of e-commerce business requires the same kind of marketing. All the marketing that goes with the product: before, during and after is what smart marketers need to focus on. The easiest business to run at scale is the physical product in e-commerce. The importance of going premium in e-commerce. There are buyers for every level of the market. Why Ezra chose not to sell on the subscription model. Using consistent ongoing marketing content in customer communication can generate revenue by sending the customers back to the website over and over. Ezra describes how he made the transition from driver to navigator. The importance of setting boundaries. Work will fill the time that you give it but it is necessary to scale in order to create balance. Balance as an entrepreneurial leader allows you to give the autonomy to those around you to step into roles that they can be motivated to succeed at. Ezra runs his business based on the practice of permaculture. Serve the world unselfishly and profit, that is his philosophy. Transcription: Mark: I saw an ad on Facebook the other day Joe and it made me think of our guest today. The ad was for anyone … any guy who has just a regular hairdo like I do and it was a man bun attachment. You could actually buy a man bun attachment to put on the top of your head if you wanted to have a man bun. Joe: Don't say his name now, don't say his name. Mark: I want a minute here and think who in the industry … in the world of marketing is known for his man bun? Joe: You know when we had Syed Balkhi on the podcast I actually went out and bought myself a Florida gator hat to wear during part of the podcast. I seriously thought about going on Amazon and ordering a man bun and putting it on for this podcast. That's what I wanted to do. But you know what I don't know the guest well enough. I've seen him at events and we were a host, we're not a sponsor on his last event. Today we're on this podcast is the first time I really got to sit down and talk with him for 30 minutes or so. I guess we can say is name now is Ezra Firestone. If you don't know his name where the hell have you been? Because essentially he is … in my view he's the Tony Robbins of the e-commerce world without the banana hands if you've ever seen Shallow Hal. He's very impressive. When he starts talking you just sit back and listen and you go “What? Really, wow that's incredible. That's incredible.” He's so full of energy and so passionate about what he does that you would think that he works all the time. And that's kind of the takeaway from this podcast for me. There are lots of great insights to how to run a more effective e-commerce business in different channels and philosophies that someone like Ezra applies. And look he's doing 30 million dollars a year in revenue growing month over month and does incredible things. He does not get out of bed … well, I shouldn't say bed; he does not start his day until 10 o'clock in the morning. And that doesn't mean he works until 10 o'clock at night. He works maybe till 5 o'clock unless he's out doing events; like he's going to be at Blue Ribbon Mastermind next week which is just incredible … doing 30 million a year in revenue and not working 40 hours a week; a really impressive guy. Mark: Absolutely you know I have a confession to make. You know these courses, these e-courses online that are super expensive, I usually look at these and I'm like yeah who in the world would ever pay for this? So my confession is this, I've actually bought one before and it was one of Ezra's. It was on Facebook Marketing which is a little bit off from what you're talking about. But I can honestly say it was worth every single penny. I think those who have actually gone to Ezra's events and listened to his advice bought one of his courses and have followed him. He's big. He's known because he's a real deal. Starting work at 10 AM is an awesome testament to the idea of this work life balance and making sure that we're working so that we can live our lives. We're not living so that we can work our lives. That's awesome. I want to hear this because right now I'm working so much and Joe I know you are too. So hopefully you did pull away a few things from this as well. Joe: I did. I did and people don't want to hear you and I anymore so let's just go to Ezra. Mark: Let's go. Joe: Hey folks it's Joe Valley from the Quiet Light Podcast and today I have Ezra Firestone on the line with me. Hey Ezra how are you doing? Ezra: Happy to be here man. Thank you so much for having me on the show. I love doing stuff like this. Joe: So so glad to have you here. You and I have … we've been to a couple of events together, I've been to your Smart Marketer and Blue Ribbon Mastermind but we've never had a half hour to talk to each other so I'm loving the fact that I got your crew to schedule this. So thank you first and foremost, I know you're a busy guy. As I mentioned earlier we don't do a fancy introduction so for those that don't know who you are if you could tell us a little bit about yourself and your background that'd be fantastic. Ezra: Sure. Thanks. I am currently sitting in a presidential cabinet room, so that's my current location in the world. Joe: For those listening and not watching, get online and look. Ezra: Yeah get up take a look. This is actually an off … my wife and I bought 76 acres of land about 20 minutes from here that we're intending to sort of develop and build a home on and have kids on and stuff. We're renting this home and the person who lived here before was like some kind of a lawyer or something. And this room … it's all cabinets and for me for some reason that is confronting. Like I don't know why but I walk into this [inaudible 00:05:02.0] in my office and I love … I love it. I love that I have a space where I can work but all the cabinetry it kind of freaks me out because it's very not … much not my vibe. So I'm like putting in plants, I've got like a skateboard over here. You know I'm kind of trying to make it feel a little less intense. Anyways a little bit about me business wise is I never went to college. I went straight from high school to New York City to play poker for a living which I did really well as a teenager and into my early 20's. I was really fun but eventually, I sort of came across the concept of not trading time for money and began looking at building systems to generate revenue and resource for me without my direct time input all the time and sort of fell into e-commerce. Because you know e-commerce was really coming up in society at that time. We're talking 2004, 2005, 2006. It was my first years in e-commerce and I've been fortunate enough to grow up in this industry. And this was a time before events and before podcast and before this industry was … everyone, when you said you were an Internet marketer they thought you were into porn or gambling. Joe: That's right. Ezra: It was not looked at as a good thing. And so long story short is I've been doing e-commerce full time for about 13 years. I have grown and sold several companies. I currently have four different brands that generate about 25 million a year in revenue and 70 employees on my team around the country. And I'm just a guy. I'm just some random guy who loves this stuff. I really really love it and I think timing wise I came into it at the right time and fell in love with it at the right time and have been putting my full energy and attention in the direction of online businesses and e-commerce in particular physical products. Although I do have other business models e-commerce is my most successful model over the last decade. Joe: That's impressive. First and foremost the fact that you didn't go to college and you went right to life and you're a professional poker player. I don't tell my kids this, as I mentioned before I've got two boys, 14 … oh almost 15 and 17, some of the most successful people I know didn't go to college. One of the guys I worked with up in Portland Maine, Rob Graham if you're listening, absolutely one of the most successful people I know and he just … he got it. He worked hard, he was smart, he used common sense and intelligence which you have to have a combination of so kudos to you. Ezra: Thanks, man. By the way, you can't give me too much credit for that decision. There were no colleges that would take me with my problem. I just didn't fit the mold. I sort of always had this idea, you know I haven't … I had an alternative lifestyle. I grew up in an intentional community in the Bay Area of California with flower children hippie parents and so I kind of had some alternative views on life from my upbringing. And one of them was that the school system really felt like a system that was farming me into a model … into a workforce that I didn't want to join. You know sitting at a desk for eight hours a day and then you'll be trained to go sit in the cubicle eight hours a day. And I believe that in life you get what you want from people who have it. That's how … you find someone like you Joe and you learn about how to sell businesses from someone who is doing that. And I have always sort of believed in that apprenticeship model. And you know I looked around at college, I mean I attempted to get in, nobody would take me but there was like nothing there for me you know. The teachers didn't have anything that I wanted. I couldn't really see a future for myself there and I was a very good hustler. I always had little businesses and I was the guy at school … I almost had, I would have to go on to those stories but I always had something going on to make money because we weren't rich. We grew up without much means and I always had this goal of generating resource so that I could use it for causes that I found noble like taking care of my family and taking care of my community and participating in the world in ways that you can only do when you have access to resources. So I always kind of had my attention on that and yeah I fell in to entrepreneurship sort of because of that. Joe: So if people are reading in between the lines and the threads and lines here, we've got somebody that … you used the word hustle, you know I think the harder you work the luckier you get. You take from people who have it, in other words, you associate from … or with people that they can help you and you're in turn helping them it's never a one sided- Ezra: Totally. Joe: -you would think. And the noble cause is giving back. I have to ask though when you give the visual of 76 acres that you and your wife have bought, you're going to build a home and when … I just what state are we talking about? I keep hearing New York and Hawaii but I think you're up in New York. Ezra: Yeah so I live in upstate New York now, about two hours north of the city and I grew up in Hawaii and California. Moved to New York at 18 to play poker and just fell in love with the East Coast. I met my wife when I was 20 and this is kind of where our life is and where our community is and our friends are and just sort of I'm a big fan. I love it, it's a really really good place and yeah we got our problems, we got ticks and we've got the winter and like there are things you know. But it's like anywhere you go there's going to be stuff. Joe: Well you can have your events in the southern regions of the country so that you can get out of New York when it's 10 degrees and 18 inches of snow out there. Talk to me about that transition that you had from okay online poker or playing poker up in New York is not cutting it and you wanted to step into the e-commerce world, did you … was there a day, a moment, a person that you met that made a difference and you said okay this is the path I think I'm going to try it? Ezra: Totally. I think that entrepreneurs, in general, are chasing some form of freedom; financial freedom, location freedom, freedom of where they can spend their time and they're running away from pain in general. And then you kind of reach different levels of entrepreneurship that I'll talk about in a minute as I've gone through all the phases of like I started … my wife didn't like the idea of me being out all night sleeping all day under fluorescent lights with a bunch of degenerates just eating Butterfingers and just being like a New York City underground poker scene guy. I mean that is not an attractive package so she wasn't to excited about that so I took what I call a square job where it was one of my first ever jobs where I actually worked for someone else running this yoga studio in Manhattan. And this was at a time when Bikram Yoga was still in its heyday. It just kind of like we're talking 2007, I was running this studio. It was the biggest Bikram Yoga studio in Manhattan. I was the manager, the youngest manager. I was 21. I ran the whole thing and this was before everyone found out that Bikram was a creep and a rapist and the whole kind of Bikram thing fell apart. It was sort of as yoga was going main stream in society and that was a really fun gig being in service that … you know in the world service running a studio. But man I would be there 60 hours a week and I didn't like not having the … not being able to have choice in where my time was spent. And so that was the initial sort of pain point that pushed me towards man the poker gig was better than this because I had more flexibility of where I've got to put my attention. And I think that in life what you put your attention on grows and what you ignore gets smaller. You put your attention on your health it gets better, if you ignore your health it gets worse. If you put your attention on your relationship it gets better. If you ignore it, it gets worse like … just where you're directing your attention is everything. And I think that really as a human being the skillset you want to develop is the skillset of mastery which is simply the willingness to put your attention in one area consistently over time. Pick up the instrument for 30 minutes a day after a month you're better at it. It's a willingness to place attention and direct it consistently over time and I think that … so I kind of was playing poker for a living and I met a guy. Now, this guy was a really fascinating guy and he was a coach and a coach of coaches before coaching was mainstream. So now you know about relationship coaches, health coaches, life coaches, business coaches, coaching has really penetrated society as a mainstream concept. Back in '04, '05, '06 it really was not that big and this guy was an early life coach. He'd started the International Coaching Federation one of these things he started that was a life coaching sort of governing body. And the thing about coaching is there is no real governing body, any schmoe off the street can call themselves a coach and start charging. And that is both good and bad, right? You end up with access and to opportunity for people but also some people are you know schmucks and not so good at it or they're selling you stuff … you know they're not qualified. Anyways long story short this guy … we're talking '05, he was selling business opportunity information products, e-books, digitally delivered courses, DVD sets, and these were how to become a life coach, how to start a life coaching business, how to make your own money and have a practice as a life coach. And the way that he generated visibility for this offer was with the search engine optimization which was the traffic source of the day for internet businesses. You would rank on Google and you would buy query based traffic from Google Ad Words when someone typed in a search query like how to make money he would show up. And so I taught him how to play poker and he taught me search engine optimization. And that was like my first foray into … you know this guy worked from his laptop, he was making a bunch of money and I was like men his life and his production cycle is a much more effective production cycle than mine. If we're looking at like we both have the goal of generating wealth, the way he is doing it is far more appealing than the way I'm doing it sitting behind a desk selling people water and coconut water and being yelled at about how we don't have any towels. It was like your hustle is smarter man you got to teach me this. So I taught him how to play poker he taught me search engine optimization. I ended up taking over his business and running this life coaching information product business, learning about things like landing page optimization and conversion rate optimization, sales webinars, and product launches, and upsells, and just like traditional direct response internet marketing as it relates to the sale of information. And this was really where I cut my teeth as a marketer and I love that business. It was a lot of fun. And ultimately once I had developed the skill set of the ability to generate visibility for an offer which was not that hard back then, it was buying Ad Words and doing article marketing, link building, and SEO, I thought to myself man selling information is wonderful but it's got a couple of downsides which is you're reliant on a single influencer. You are only as … you only have as much value as the next month's cash, it's not … you can't sell the thing. It's not an asset, it's a cash flow business by its very nature because it's built around, in general, a particular persona and you can't ever sell that. And there's a number of reasons why I wanted a different model and I tried a whole bunch of them. You know I had a seven figure services agency. I currently run a multi seven figure software as a service business. I did coaching and consulting. I did development for people. I've done all kinds of models and e-commerce appeals to me as the number one model and has been my most successful model and the model that I've enjoyed most for a number of reasons and I'll go through those now. I don't even know if this is the answer to your question. I'm kind of rambling. Can I tell you about why I like e-commerce? Joe: Keep going, please I love this. Ezra: So if you look at the three main areas that result in a business's success … now I will determine a business at scale as a business that's doing between half a million and a million dollars a year and has at least three employees and consistent processes. I'm going to label that as “scale”, so being someone who has run probably 10 different business models, you know affiliate marketing … I've done everything in the last 15 years or so. At scale, e-commerce is my favorite for a number of reasons. When you look at what I believe to be the three things that you've got to have in place to scale a business there's … the first one is product. You need supply chain; you need the ability to produce this product at scale in a way that is not going to take over your life. So if you look at e-commerce, I literally sell tubs of goo. Okay this is not a tub of goo this is a stick of goo but basically, it's a plastic stick there's some goo in it. I mean and you can see here on the visual this is very very good goo, it's handmade goo. Joe: It's like fantastic all natural goo. Ezra: Yeah, it's really really good but it's like I got a tub and I got some goo and I got some labels right? At scale I buy more tubs, I mix more goo and I have more labels. Now let's look at product and supply chain at scale for software as a service which are also sold at scale. Software as a service I need front end engineers, back end engineers, QA's, I need to actually be creating new code and updating the product and integrations all the time. Like the product is morphing every single week; it's not the same product. It changes every week and then whatever I change breaks and then once I develop the product I have to document what I did for the people who are actually using it. And then I have to train and now we move into the second pillar; support. So you have a product you want to ask me something about that product? Joe: I want to point out that the products that you have in your hand also they get used up and reordered and auto shipped so it's a key differentiator between selling a water bottle [inaudible 00:18:06.6]- Ezra: Hey smart marketer all right. Joe: -versus a tub of goo. Ezra: [inaudible 00:18:12.7] is I mean obviously subscription based revenue things that are consumed is really really phenomenonal. If you look at information marketing the beauty of the product side of selling information is you create it once and then you don't have any more cost of goods. Every time I need to buy another one of these it cost me six bucks. When I create an informational course, I create it once and I can continue to sell it but the product goes bad after about six months to a year because it's outdated information. It's not self-help. I mean I sell very specific here's how you run Facebook ads that might need to be updated every six months. So it's very hard to keep that product up to date. Services, I struggled with the product side of setting boundaries. I had a multi seven figure consulting agency doing advertising for e-commerce businesses back in '09 and my problem was always around where does the service end? People would ask me for more. I would then do it like I just didn't have a … I wasn't good at boundaries and so I found that product very hard to fulfill on and as much as I had a very hard time. And this is maybe not other people's issues, I had boundary issues and it's therefore I failed as a services agency and I did well but like the model was not super profitable because I could not figure how to set boundaries. So as far as the product goes e-commerce has been the easiest one to scale without my direct involvement. And I'm looking for the ability to generate wealth and resource and have the most pleasurable model possible. And when you look at the most pleasurable models to run for me it's e-commerce. Let's talk about the support side because as your business scales you have to engage with and support your customers. And with software as a service, those support people need to be very high level. They need to understand the software, the highest level and be able to talk to customers about it. It's way more intense than support for e-commerce where it's like what's in the product, can I get a refund? You know I mean like the support is not anywhere near as high level for e-commerce. So if you look at I have a 1.5 million dollar a year in annual recurring revenue software as a service business that I launched about 24 months ago it will be about 2 million this year and 20 something but the point is that business at 2 million dollars a year has double the amount of employees that BOOM! does at 20 million dollars a year. Double the amount of employees at only 2 million a year because I need people for the product; i.e. front end, back end, engineers, QA people, project managers, I need more support people for the number of customers than I do for BOOM!. So support is something that you have to figure out and support on the agency's side if you're running an agency is very difficult because you got to get on the phone. You got to talk to people; you got to show them results, you're the punching bag when things don't go well. It's very difficult to be … do services well and on the support side it can be really tough. So support for e-commerce is easiest for me in my experience of every model that I've been involved in. And then the one thing that e-commerce requires is marketing. Every other model requires marketing as well, that's sort of the third pillar right? Product, supply chain, support, and marketing; I mean really this is like what we are doing at the end of the day. I mean there's other stuff but like everything kind of is an offshoot of one of those. So the marketing side which is storytelling, sales funnels, content, copywriting, social media, all this kind of stuff is what I excel at; that's my real specialty. It's one of the reasons why every model that I've engaged in I've done some kind of well at because I understand how to comment on a collective experience. And so this is my frame for it. I feel like every business that I have is serving a particular group of people who are having a collective experience and my goal as a marketer is to comment on that experience in a way that resonates with that particular group of people who's having that experience and then push them in the direction of my products ultimately. And so the example you know this product line is sold to women over 50 who are all having the experience of aging and everyone telling them that that is wrong. That's the group of people and that's the collective experience they're having and then I comment on that with my marketing. And so that for me is the same with every business. Every business requires the same kind of marketing; creating videos, amplifying them via advertising, creating sales funnels and technology stacks that push people through a 60 to 90 day sales cycle with retargeting, and then once they buy having content marketing and engagement to keep their attention and then up sells and cross sells after they've consumed with constant content post purchase all of that stuff. And so since that is what I excel at is the marketing side and then I'm looking for okay you know and some people struggle with that but that just happens to be my particular skillset. The model that I am most in love with and I think is the easiest to run at scale is physical product e-commerce because the supply chain is easy and the support is easy and marketing is the same level of difficulty as any other business at scale. Joe: That's a good point. You know I never thought of it. I was at a Mastermind a year and a half ago, someone got up on stage, talked about importing from China and she went into such detail about how important it is to determine the thickness of the corrugated box when you're importing from China. For when it's on that container ship, when it gets to UPS, when it gets to the fulfillment center and all of it … I got to tell you I practically fell asleep and said to myself I never ever want to own any physical products e-commerce business again. Ezra: Don't import from China. I don't. Joe: Don't import from China. I didn't. I had nutritional supplements and it's all US based. So I think it's the ideal business model if you're an e-commerce is something with a consumable product recurring revenue that is manufactured here in the United States. Ezra: I would agree and I would also argue that if you look at e-commerce you might as well go premium because there's buyers for every level of the market. Let's say you have supplements that cost $10 a bottle versus supplements that cost $90 a bottle. I'm always going to sell the $90 a bottle. The reason is it's about the same level of difficulty to generate the sale. And if you go premium you have much more margin that you can then reinvest back in to better product, better score, and better marketing. And so I fall more and more … and you look at the companies that are scaling, Purple Mattress like a lot of these companies have discovered all birds shoes for example by $90 … $5 a pair, it cost them like 10 bucks, they got $80 of margin to spend on growing the brand. So I really believe in premium, consumable … and it doesn't have to necessarily be consumable but line expansion, so if you are selling water bottles also have water bottle coolers and you know what I mean like [crosstalk 00:24:25.2] expand the line but- Joe: And an expansion of that line that is something that can be shipped on a continuity basis. Ezra: Yeah, ideally for sure. I mean listen I don't sell subscription. There's no subscription in my brand though 40% of my revenue comes from repeat customers. Joe: So why the choice not to sell subscription? Ezra: Well, you don't necessarily need to actually have someone on a credit card ding every month to have a high level of repeat business. All you have to have is really good marketing. And my particular demographic is afraid of subscription. And as much as they've experienced a whole bunch of people not letting them off subscription when they get on subscription … so I get all questions every day like is this subscription? Can I cancel my subscription? People don't want to feel obligated, they want to come back and buy when they want to buy. And my view point is that you can have … and my experience is that you can have a recurring business model without actually having people on subscription programs like I do with this product if your products are worth it. Joe: And the product in your hand and this is from experience, not everyone's going to go through that product in the same amount of time. And so that 30 day renewing charge to the credit card is going to be too quick for some, just right for others and too long for others. So you're an expert at reaching out to them and giving them what they need is hey it's time to reorder at click, reorder … that's your … instead of auto shipment you're reaching out to them with I would assume an automated email campaign or through a messenger or something like that. Ezra: Well, we do consistent ongoing content. So we're always sending out videos and articles and so we could generate a lot of revenue just from sending people back to our website. Joe: You mean you're helping customers? Ezra: Yeah, we're adding value to their lives by commenting on the conversations that they're already having. Joe: So to the newbies out there listen to that, adding value to their lives by helping them with the information that they have and making their lives better. That's ideal marketing right there. Ezra: And every six weeks we run a sale event. And I would say about 70% of our revenue from repeats comes from those sale events every six weeks with those sale events and 30% comes from just the random content emails. Those sale events work a lot better when the audience is engaged in ongoing content. So then when we do ask them to buy something, they've been hearing from us, they've been engaged with our content, they've seen our videos on Facebook and their feeds that are just interesting fun videos that are about beauty and help and stuff like that. And then they see this oh they're having a sale, I like these people, I know these people, I engage with their content every now and again. So the ongoing content strategy actually acts as a supporter of our ongoing sales. And when you do the sales every six weeks without the ongoing content they don't work anywhere near as well. Joe: You know it's almost like you just said how do I help more people not how do I sell more product. Ezra: I want to do both but yes. Joe: By doing the first you're doing the second. So it's more of a mature, seasoned approach to growing a brand where you're helping more people and generating more revenue. That's the end result and I'm saying this in a way that sometimes I see businesses from all shapes and sizes, we're doing four to five valuations a week and there's a team of eight of us here at Quiet Light and so we see a lot of different variations of businesses. And the toughest ones to sell are those that are just trying to make a quick buck. They've built a little … slapped their brand on it and they're to get it out there and they're going to get eaten up alive by guys like you in time. They can make a little dent but it's not going to last. What you're doing is something that I think is going to last and eventually will build a much bigger value and someday have a lifetime … if you ever choose to a lifetime event sale where you can say okay I'm done. I don't really ever need to work again but it sounds like you're full of passion, you'd probably be working for a long time. Ezra: Yeah, I feel like if you like what you're doing and you're enjoying it and you have a nice balance … because the problem that most entrepreneurs experience at some point and I can recognize this from across the room at an event and everyone goes through it at some point in the entrepreneurial journey or at least my experience has been like everyone I've talked to and I've talked to thousands of entrepreneurs that have gotten to this place at some point which is burn out. Joe: Yeah. Ezra: They're overwhelmed, overstimulated, they've taken on too much responsibility, and they feel at the mercy shackled to their production cycle … shackled to their business operation. And you know my big transformation in the last two years has been going from driver to navigator. So you know I spent my career driving on the road, taking turns, doing everything and as I've scaled I've seen that really like my most valuable skillset is that of the person who navigates the ship. If you're on the road making the turn you can't see the mountains in the distance. And so at some point you have to make the transition or at least part time the transition to a person who is setting strategy, who is reviewing what's going on, who's going out and meeting new people and bringing in deal flow, who's actually like holding the container and the vision for the operation. And then reviewing what the team is doing and delegating responsibility and giving autonomy and freedom to the people around you to step up in the roles like lead copywriter or lead advertiser or lead project manager or you know all the stuff that you might be doing yourself. And I think that when you are able to do that it affords you the ability to relax a little bit and kind of have a little bit more space for your business. The other thing I will say that people don't do enough of is set real clear boundaries around their work life. Because as an entrepreneur, particularly as an internet entrepreneur your business is with you at all times. I've got my cellphone on my hand but if you … you know it's like your wallet, just always with you and so you don't end up with separation between your life and your business. And when you look at the people who are burned out you find that oh they've been ignoring their bodies and their health. Oh, they've been ignoring their relationships and their intimacy and their connection and their social life and their hobbies. Oh, they've been ignoring like the home front. Like it's … the burnout stems from lack of balance between production cycle and other cycles. And work will fill the time that you give it, it really will. It will fill whatever time that you give it. So I don't actually put my attention on work until about 10 AM and I stop around 5:30 or 6, that's my time frame. I wake up, I move my body, I meditate, I hang out my wife, we have breakfast, we do our little morning thing. It's super fun. A couple of hours in the morning where I'm just partying and having fun and then I start out my work day and I'll work for a couple hours and then I'll have lunch. I'll put in a couple more hours and then I'll stop and that'll be it. And I'll enjoy my evening and my … I do that four solid days a week, sometimes five, and sometimes I don't work at all Friday, Saturday, and Sunday, sometimes I do and it's like you might think oh like my business is to crazy I can't actually do that. I promise you if you do not start working until 10 and you stop at 6 everything that important to get done you will get done. And that's so much working time that is your whole life man, 10 to 6, four days a week it's like you are asking too much of yourself if you're trying to put more of that in your production cycle. And then look I understand that sometimes you've got to run 14 hours a day for four weeks in a row because you're doing a product launch. It's like okay … cool but that … it's a marathon, not a sprint. [inaudible 00:31:25.8] explain this thing you're going to fail. And I can tell you that as someone who has gone through the stages of entrepreneurship from working off the couch with a full time job moonlighting the business to now running an eight figure set of brands with 70 members and a lifestyle that I really really enjoy. I've been there and you really … if you don't set the boundaries and don't set the container it will not exist and the work will permeate your entire existence and you will have no separation from it and you have no relaxation and no space. And a lot of times your best ideas come when you're not working. When you have space and you're enjoying yourself. It's like it is necessary to scale to set constraints around your work life. And people are unwilling to do this because they feel it will be a detriment to their success. But actually in my experience and the experience of everyone who has done this that I know it works the opposite. Joe: And a lot of folks that come from the corporate world when they're putting in 50, 60 hours a week traveling all over the world and they just want to get out of the rat race and they want to be an entrepreneur. And they buy an online e-commerce business and they feel like they need to put in 40, 50, 60 hours a week. And I said look the guy that you're buying it from has been working 15 hours a week, you've got some learning to do so just maybe cap it at 25. But don't work to the point where you're trying to fix things that are not broken, just learn. Go to events, go to Smart Marketer and things like that. You just don't have to work that much and you've worked so hard that it's time to take care of your own health and wellness as well. Ezra: And I think that totally and like hey go for it put in a full eight hour day or 10 hours a day multi work weeks as you're getting in to the game but like at least have the goal of setting some boundaries and containers around your work life because you will be a happier person. And like what is the point of all of this? Is the point just wealth creation because mine certainly is not. I would love to generate as much resource and I'm using resource as a lingo word to describe generating wealth so that I can then direct that resource towards causes that I find noble. Take care of my community where I grew up, take care of my family, provide a lifestyle for my wife that she's really excited about and our family, do other things that are … that have meaning to me like saving lands and all kinds of stuff. So not a lot of people have figured out how to generate resource, everyone is failing at this. Everyone thinks that success is the goal and they're running in the direction of success and most people are failing at it and most people are miserable. And it's like the goal … fun is a much less popular but more fulfilling goal than success. So if you can figure out how to have fun and enjoy yourself which means setting fucking boundaries around your work life and having hobbies and having a social life and taking care of your body you will have more success. You're guaranteed to be a winner if you're chasing a good time and fun. You're not guaranteed to have fun if you chase success. So it's like what the hell is the point? What are you doing person? I want to grab you by the shoulders and smack you around and say listen, stop it. Focus on enjoying your life. And yes but obviously focus on the production cycle and the success. Joe: We're not talking about being poor and happy we're talking about a combination of both [inaudible 00:34:37.5] which are successful businesses with recurring revenue models and a very happy and healthy home life. I think it's amazing that you really generally don't start work until 10 unless you're out at an event to a sponsorship or something like that and then you're walking away. Do you actually put that device down and walk away; that phone that's in your hand? Ezra: Oh yeah. There's no phones in the bedroom dude. Turn off the computers, get off the digital medium. I mean you're shackled to it, man. You're on it all day every day, give yourself a freaking break and all of a sudden you feel better and life is better. And you hop on in the morning and you respond to the emails and the slacks and then you start creating. I kind of use my morning time for my creation, strategy, content you know I create a lot in the mornings and then like throughout the rest of the day I'll be … I'm at a place in my business now where I have a lot of reviewing and talking to people about what's going on. And my job is a lot of like sort of directing, hey okay yeah this is good let's move it over here. I'm doing a lot of like kind of holding and sort of directing things and if you don't have the visual of my hands [inaudible 00:35:39.8] but … and that I find is so easy to do in the later parts of the day. And in the early parts of the day, I do my creation. Joe: Creation as in … you like, what does that mean you're? Ezra: Well creation as in like for me- Joe: Like creating content? What is it? Ezra: Yeah. Well for me it's like thinking about marketing campaigns, looking at strategy, thinking about what we should be doing, thinking … anything that involves thinking of new stuff or doing new stuff or like you know I do a lot of … for my SaaS business and my information marketing business I do a lot of content creation and blog videos and webinars and sales videos and writing scripts. And I do a lot of creating things and also creating strategies. And I find that that is easiest for me in the early parts of the day and then in the later parts of the day reviewing stuff that other people did, talking to them about it, directing things just a little bit. I know it doesn't require as much focus. I mean it's still focused but it's not like I don't have to be fully locked in I could kind of be doing other stuff and you know. Joe: I got you. Hey, you mentioned the word meditation I want to jump right in to that if you don't mind. Just are you up and meditating every day? Did you read a number of books? You've been doing it for a lifetime; I would imagine based upon the way you grew up. Ezra: Yeah I mean you know this hippie commune that I grew up on was not what you think of. It wasn't like crunchy granola, everyone meditated and you know we didn't have animals. It's very different than what you think. It wasn't one of these places where you had to subscribe to some ideology to be a part of it. A lot of these intentional communities in order to get in them you have to be a … you have to hold a certain set of viewpoints. I describe the difference between an intentional community and a cult in these ways because a lot of people are like oh you grew up in a cult like the group of … any time you get a group of people living somewhere with different viewpoints people call it a cult right? So let's just let me give you my description for this, from my perspective a cult is something that is easy to join and hard to leave. An intentional community is something that is very hard to join and very easy to leave. It's like hard to get in to the party and then if you want to go at any time you could get out of here. That's sort of the difference between those two models. And particularly in the place I grew up it wasn't like built around a hey you must believe these things to live here. It was like a bunch of hippies who sort of wanted to step away from traditional mainstream society and focus on how to live pleasurably in a group and do cool things like run charities. And yeah I mean there was definitely some alternative viewpoints and they definitely teach courses on things like communication and relationships and all kinds of stuff. It's a really really cool place but meditation was not like a part of my life as a kid. I was just like … I went to normal, I went to high school normal school. I was a normal kid. I just went home to a different place than most people and I didn't go home to the suburbs. So you know I kind of came across meditation through my wife. She was a yoga teacher when I met her. And she was all into this sort of Eastern philosophies and stuff. And we go through phases where we will be meditating 30 minutes in the morning and 30 minutes at night and then we won't do it for a couple months. We kind of like … I think that people think that they're failing if they don't stick to their routines. And it's like routines are meant to be broken. Part of the fun of having a routine is breaking it and coming back to it. It's like the goal is not to just do the same thing all the time. You notice if you work out and you do the same work out over and over your body gets used to it. So we go through phases where we'll do it a lot and we won't do it that much. I do find that when we are doing it I feel better. I feel clear and I like it. And you know when we restart we'll start with just like 10 minutes in the morning, and then maybe like 15 minutes, and then we're like 20 minutes, and I actually found this really cool meditation seats on Amazon. They're like a tiny little plank with a cushion on it and two short little legs and you kneel on them. And man they've been awesome because they keep you upright. But yeah I like meditation; I'm a fan of it. And I think that really it's less about the specific formula that you subscribe to and more about the intention to take time for yourself and take care of yourself. Have a bath in the evening, pay attention to what you're putting into your body, move your body. It's like … it's more about the intention of wellness rather than the particular formula that you are subscribing to for wellness has been my experience with it. Joe: Yeah. Ezra: Because … different strokes for different folks man. Different shit works for different people. Joe: Absolutely. We're running a little short on time but I can talk to you for another hour and a half but I want to talk quickly about the helping that you do in terms of the Smart Marketer. Because the people out there listening they've heard you mention a few different things. I first met you at the Smart Marketer conference in Austin last year, I was just at Blue Ribbon with you in Denver which is your Mastermind group and then I think you're going to Capitalism next week in Austin as well? Ezra: Brand Builders, are you coming? Joe: Brand Builders, yes we'll be there as well. Ezra: Hey, maybe we could actually talk to each other in person. Joe: I know, how about that? That'd be awesome wouldn't it? But you know with Smart Marketer Mark actually bought your Facebook program but you know I'm constantly talking to people about what they're doing within their e-commerce businesses and where to go what resources to look at. Can you just talk briefly in terms of what you do and what programs you have in there and what resources are available for those people that are listening that are e-commerce folks that want to grow their businesses but at the same time do it in a shorter day like yours is. Ezra: For sure let me introduce to you the concept of permaculture. Are you familiar with that concept? Permaculture, it's a farming term. Joe: No. Ezra: What it means generally … what kind of the high level meaning is to reuse all of your resources to their greatest benefit; so capture the rain water, water the garden, take the chicken shit use it for your compost. Reuse of resources. So I spend all of my time with my focus on innovation in the direction of e-commerce and I do a really good job at it. And then with Smart Marketer I document whatever is working and I share that with my community of business owners through my free blog and through educational courses where I have how we run Facebook ads or how we do conversion optimization on our website or how we run project management for our brand or how we run social media for our brand or whatever. I have all these different courses but what they are is they're a direct documentation of what's worked for me and my brands. I then take the money that I make from Smart Marketer and I reinvest back into the e-commerce businesses. And in my e-commerce businesses I'm also developing software. I'm developing things to make them function better. So anything that works really well I open source that and share it with my community of business owners in the form of software as a service. Any money that software as a service brand makes I dump back in to e-commerce. So all of these things sort of work together. The e-commerce is the heart that pumps the blood to the information which then takes revenue and puts it back into e-commerce which then lets me do developments which then I use for my software as a service brands so kind of all works together and Smart Marketer, in particular, is do and then document. And I only have two products, I have digitally delivered courses … digitally delivered educational courses in the forms of videos, PDF's, and handwritten notes on what they are that teach you the things that I have found to be most effective. Paid amplification, how to run Google traffic and Facebook traffic to your website, project management, how to run your e-commerce business with systems and processes at scale and hire people, social media, how to have ongoing content and engagement for people who bought from you in the past. I have all these different courses and they're on my website but I have digitally delivered educational courses and I have a Mastermind. A Mastermind is only for million dollars sellers basically. If you're doing 500 grand minimum most people are doing five million, 10 million, etcetera … then this group is for the high achievers; the people who have really made it. It's a more intimate intense program where it's like very high level 100 people all really kicking butt. So I have that Mastermind and I have the digitally delivered courses. And that's all Smart Marketer is. It's just my personal journey being documented and open sourced for business owners and thankfully for me, I think again timing was a big issue … a big thing here. I was the first you know. I was the kind of first e-commerce influencer and as much as I started a blog about my e-commerce journey before people were doing it really really and it got real popular early on. And I've kind of continued to put energy towards it because I love doing it and I feel really fortunate that people care about what I have to say. It was like really awesome that people want to hear this stuff because for me it's like you have to be a total nerd to be interested in this. It's like kind of dry content, it's not like … it's not dry but it's like if you're not into internet businesses you're not going to be interested in this blog. I mean yeah I talk about relationships and lifestyle and stuff like that too and that's fun but I think that like the real sort of core to base of subscribers are internet business owners and e-commerce business owners, and so that's that model. Joe: That's fantastic. I'm always impressed when you speak. I'm always impressed with your energy, your enthusiasm, and the fact you'd really really trying to help people more than anything else. And it comes back to you. It's not like you're doing it for free and whatnot. Then you're not trying to earn a living for you and your family and whatnot. Obviously, you are but you do it in a manner that is beneficial to others that comes back to you which I commend you for. Ezra: Serve the world unselfishly and profit; that's my motto in business. Joe: And you came on here not even knowing fully what we were going to talk about. It wasn't a pitched Smart Marketer or any of your services. Really it was to talk about work life balance which you laid out very very well. I loved your journey. I love your approach. I love your philosophy. And I'm really hoping that people go back and listen to this again and actually read the article that will be produced from it as well so that can really hone in on what you do and focus on it to, maybe get out to see you at some of these events that you put on and get to Smart Marketer and get better at what they do. Ezra: Thanks man, and I would totally share this. Let me know when it comes out I'll put it out. Joe: Absolutely. Thank you for that. We'll put it down and I'll put all the details on how to reach you and how to reach your courses and whatnot down on the show notes. And I will reach you when we get it wrapped up and ready for the world. Listen to it and watch it and thanks for your time, Ezra. I appreciate it. Ezra: Thanks man, talk to you later. Links: Smartmarketer.com Free Facebook Video Ad Training Full Course Selection Blue Ribbon Mastermind Ezra on Twitter Ezra on LinkedIn
Ryan Daniel Moran was a preacher-in-training turned entrepreneur. He moved to Austin with little to nothing to his him name, and launched Amazon businesses that he eventually sold for over 8 figures. Ryan did us all a solid – really – by documenting and sharing his journey. The Freedom Fast Lane Podcast helps entrepreneurs at every stage of their business, from startup to exit. In this interview, Ryan shares his top three “mistakes”, or as discussed, things he wishes he did differently as he looks back. He openly shares his story and journey, in the hopes that other entrepreneurs do things to maximize the value of their business (and life). Through Ryan's conference, Capitalism.com, he helps bring like minded entrepreneurs and experts in the ecommerce space together to build brands and businesses that last. While he may be a preacher-school-dropout, Ryan still has a way of delivering the goods when it comes to advocating doing the right thing…so good things follow. Episode Highlights: [1:25] Who is Ryan Daniel Moran? [4:38] Is it better to buy or build? [6:43] Ryan thinks we're in a “seller's market” [8:05] What are Ryan's “mistakes” and what would he do differently. [11:30] Does it matter if you like your buyer? Does likability matter? [13:52] The likable buyer story…who won out over an all cash buyer. [15:12] Mistake # 1 – playing the short term. [17:25] Mistake #2 – telling people what to do and diminishing their talent. [18:51] Ryan shares his staffing team numbers. Inhouse and remote. [20:06] Mistake #3 – Ryan wishes he spent more money on advertising, customer acquisition, and brand building. [22:51] Why is a 100% Amazon business worth less than a Shopify store? [24:00] What channels would Ryan expand to – beyond Amazon.com [25:30] The first “nut you have to crack” [27:02] Ryan disagrees with Joe! [30:40] Brands last, product businesses don't. [31:06] Should you be thinking about a possible exit at all times? [33:05] What gives Ryan the “goosies”. Ok…he didn't say goosies, that was JLo. [33:58] Know what you will do with your money before you sell! [36:10] Should you plan your next brand before you sell, or stay focused? [39:29] How do you get more Ryan Daniel Moran Transcription: Mark: So if I could go back in time I would do a number of things different than I did in my entrepreneurial past especially before I sold my first company. And I have told you the story before that when I sold my first company I sold it for $165,000 only to find out that a year later the same person who bought the company got an offer for 350,000 without changing anything about the business at all. So … and there's a lot of regrets I have by not going back in time obviously I think anybody would like to have that ability. Joe: I'm glad it's that instead of saying you're bringing me on as a business partner. Mark: Well, you're here so I can't … I might not say that to your face. Only when you're on vacation and I have somebody else filling in as guest host. Joe: Well, Jason doesn't listen to the podcast, let's talk about him. Mark: Right. Exactly. Joe: Conversation … no regrets there. Yes and Daniel Ryan Moran was our guest and he talked about some of the regrets or as we called the mistakes because that's how he learns in life as many of us do by making mistakes and in trying not to make them over again. Fascinating … fascinating yes they're our podcast today Mark. I don't know if you recall … if you were there for his presentation at Smart Record over the last summer in Austin but he got up on stage and he spoke for 60 minutes with no script, no PowerPoint presentation and everybody was captivated. And the information that he has in it … volume of entrepreneurs that he works with and the velocities, and the approach, and everything about the way he does business and the way he literally … I mean not literally, preaches business. Okay, he's a … he was going to be a preacher so I want to say preacher school dropout. He chose to be an entrepreneur instead but the way that he talks about things is spot on with the way that we see the most successful entrepreneurs run their businesses. They focus on a number of different things and they implement those and maybe someday if they choose to exit they're in a great position to do so. Ryan talks about all of that including his own two exits that combined totaled over eight figures. Mark: Daniel Ryan Moran, same Moran that comes from Freedom Fast Lane right? Joe: Freedom Fast Lane Podcast where he talks about his story. You know five years ago he had a car and he drove to Austin, Texas and he decided he was going to launch an Amazon business and record his journey. And his journey is not over yet. It's on a new adventure, a different larger adventure but his journey kind of came to a new chapter after selling the last Amazon business that he had. But he talks about it all the way through on the Freedom Fast Lane Podcast. He got tired of seeing people do things the wrong way and learned ways to cheat at conferences and started to do his own conferences through capitalism.com and bringing good like-minded people together that build strong foundation long term value businesses and he talked about all of that today. Mark: Fantastic I can't wait to hear it. Let's go to it. Joe: Hey, folks, it's Joe Valley from Quiet Light Brokerage and today I've got somebody that a lot of you might know already. His name is Ryan Daniel Moran. Ryan, welcome to the show. Ryan: Joe thanks about having me in, let's make some magic. Joe: Listen I was having a barbecue last night we had some friends over and this is an absolute true story and one of them is an entrepreneur wannabe. She's in the corporate world and she bought some Amazon products and she tried something and it didn't work but she's going to go at it again someday and she's grilling me … she always asked me how things are with Quiet Light Brokerage and she starts asking about the podcast. I said yeah we're doing all right and hey have you ever talked to Ryan Daniel Moran just like that and here you are today we're talking to you. You're kind of a little celebrity I should say … little, you're kind of a celebrity; a rock star maybe for this … look it was a 50 year old woman. She's rather attractive and she knows who you are. Ryan: Well you know it's like my ideal market is attractive 50 year old women. We all know that that's the market I'm after right now. So tell her to give me a … maybe call me maybe. Joe: She loves listening and the fact that you're first and foremost helping people that's what she loves about it. She says someday she's going to get back to it but she loves listening and she's going to take that leap at some point in the future so good for you. And listen as I said prior to the intro we don't do fancy intros. So if you would … I know it's hard to talk about yourself but give folks a little bit of background about yourself; who you are, where you came from, and what you're all about. Ryan: Yeah. I invest in and I start physical products brands. And the way that I got to that point was actually as a pastoral student back in 2006. I built my first website and started my first business in between high school and college on my shared dial-up computer in my living room and hand coded websites using raw HTML in a software program called Dreamweaver. If you are old enough to remember Dreamweaver and you know it well. So what's funny is we hear a lot of people who are talking about building and … or selling businesses thinking about the good old or either like all the opportunity is gone now or the good old days have these … man, I was hand coding websites in Dreamweaver on a dial up computer. Do you realize how much more opportunity we have now being able to build websites on platforms and sell products on Amazon? So the opportunities are way way bigger now but I was just trying to find a way to supplement my … what I expected to be $30,000 a year salary as a pastor. Now fast forward a few years I did not finish the pastoral route for reasons that would be probably best left on a second podcast that you have Joe that's going to be called quiet skepticism. Joe: Yeah, some kind of … something where we're helping people, we're guiding them off that path right. Ryan: Exactly; quiet go to the light we'll call it. And I did not finish that route and I became a full time entrepreneur. So I was in really involved in the internet marketing space for many years until I really decided or realized I hated that crowd. I didn't like hanging out with those people. So I was like what a conference where those people hung out and I took the skill set that I had from Search Engine Optimization from Pay-Per-Click Marketing from Email Copyrighting and I applied it to physical products brands. And I've had a couple of different exits in the physical products world and now I'm an investor in physical products businesses because it's what I know. It's who I can help the most. And I think it's one of the biggest upside is in the market right now whether you are selling or building a business or buying a business, I think there's a tremendous amount of white space with the transition from big brands into more what I call micro brands mostly Internet based that's where I see the biggest opportunities right now. So that's a … I've had a couple of exits and the total over billed were eight figures in cash exchange. I still own a minority stake in a few of those businesses and have a portfolio business but my primary focus is investing in physical products brands and I have a media company for entrepreneurs at capitalism.com. Joe: Okay, so when it comes to investing people look at buy versus build. In fact, we had a podcast recently with our newest broker Walker Diebel who wrote about a book called Buy Versus Build and there's a really long subtitle and it was a … it quickly rocketed to the top 10 podcasts that we have. And you're talking about investing, do you think it's better to buy versus build at this point in your career or would you recommend somebody that's just starting out to scrape some dollars together and bootstrap something and start? Ryan: Yeah, it's better for me to invest but it wasn't better for me five years ago. In 2013 when I took my first sale on Amazon.com for a physical product I know business investing in physical product brands. I know businesses buying physical products brands now … back then I was buying a lot of websites. And you know what I was buying Joe? I was buying search engine friendly websites with email lists … social media followings weren't this big back then, but with audiences, followings targeting each market that sold affiliate products; because that was what I knew. Joe: That's what you knew. Ryan: I would have been a lot of people who are like looking for the system and that you are the system. You are the machine. And your machine is unique to you. So applying your machine to different opportunities is where value is created. So for me, I'm … at this point, I have more upside as an investor because I already have all the retail connections. I have the connections to sell businesses. I'm connected to other investors. That's my own skill set but the entrepreneur who I invest in is way better suited to start that company than I am and that's what capitalism is. Where I get the value that I bring in combination of the value that you bring and when we bring them together it's greater than the sum of our arts. And so for me yeah I'm … I have more value as an investor but to say like it's better I think would be a mistake. Joe: You know I think you're absolutely right. It depends upon the individual's situation without a doubt. I bought and I've sold and I've invested as well and I can say each were successful in their own way and each were very very difficult in their own ways as well. You'll learn along the way from the mistakes mostly. Ryan: If I could Joe I will add though, I mean globally I think we're in a seller's market. I think we're looking at buying versus selling if I give it a binary choice I do think we're in a seller's market right now. Joe: I have to agree with you 100%. When we have a good quality listing come … I had a conversation with someone this morning who wants to buy. And he's a referral from somebody who already bought and this guy is doing great so I want to do what he's doing. And the response is look when a great listing comes along you need to be prepared. So the more listings you look at the more you're going to know the right shit when it comes along. And you need to be able to act fast because you and a dozen other people are doing the same thing and they're going to make an offer on that business. So I agree it's a seller's market but at the same time, the multiple still don't get pushed too high. It's still the buyer to decide that. You and I as sellers, as brokers can pick whatever number we think the value of the business is but we don't make the final decision at the end it's usually the buyer. The seller's got a lot to say about it because they can say yes or no. But it's still the buyer makes the decision in terms of the value for the most part. But you just recently said you've exited a couple of different times in the last few years. What did you learn in that process if you look at the exit? Or maybe do you want to talk about the fact … the mistakes you made maybe building and what you can do to help the entrepreneurs that are listening or perhaps the exit and maybe a little bit of both. Ryan: Yeah well, there's one thing in particular that I think was on the stake if you will and it was thinking that the buyer had all of the control. By the way, this is C money right here or by a … my … he is the one who wants to make great on the Internet. Joe: For those listening and not watching somebody just walked into the background. Ryan: Yeah, so the mistake that I made was thinking that the buyer had all of the control. And if I could redo this Joe, the truth is if you built something, if you built a business you're the one with the asset. You're the one with the goods that money is chasing you, people want to buy you and so often the seller comes into market and is like the thing that I'm after is the check and I'm hoping that I get the check and that immediately puts you in the frame in which you're the after. You're the one who is not in the power position. So we share them with an offer and the seller is like thank you please oh please Mr. Money Pants I would like your money. And now they're in a position to beat you up over earnings, over … in the negotiations. So what I wish I had done was recognize the fact that I'm the one with the goods. I'm the one with the asset that people want. I'm the one courting the offers. People are making offers to me. There they want one I got not the other way around. So if you're in that position and you're willing to say no and you combine that with the turn ship that says here's what I'm looking for, that to me puts the seller in the frame of mind repair and the negotiating position. I didn't do that. I discovered that after the fact and I really could only have learned that by going through the process. I learned … I personally learned by making mistakes and paying for them later. Joe: We all do. Ryan: Yeah but that's a mistake that I wish somebody had told me before I went to market. Joe: Or is it … the buyer that you're referring to is it a strategic buyer or did you have your business officially listed and people came to you? Ryan: Yeah, we had it listed and we were acquired by an equity group. I still own a minority stake in that company and I'm in great terms with the equity group. I'm really happy with the buyer. I have become friends and obviously business partners at this point. But had I gone to the market with terms that I wanted I probably would have ended up in a more favorable financial position when it came to closing. Joe: Well, the next time you have a transaction you'll know that and you'll be able to make adjustments. Ryan: Right. Joe: Really I think like you said the check isn't the end all, it's more about … I think almost in many ways what your next adventure is going to be. I know that a lot of folks that I work with and myself included when I exited I was just … I sold too late. I was emotionally tired and I think that's the absolute wrong time to sell. You should sell … you should plan to sell, just don't wake up and decide to sell. But when you're emotionally tired you're not doing everything that you can to maximize the profits of the business and that's going to drive down the value. And you're going to get beat up at the end if you're so committed to that check that you can't negotiate a little bit more for something else and be willing to walk away from that buyer if they're if they're not a good buyer. And correct me if I'm wrong but just tell me how you think here, I always find that it makes an enormous difference if you like the person that's buying your business or the one … if you're buying a business from. It's not just about the check. It's not just about the money. It's the people you're doing business with. And I think that as a seller you can get more value if you're respected and professional and likable and the same as a buyer, if you're a buyer and you're professional and likable and complement the owner on the business that they built that you're going to get a better transaction out of it versus all the hard core raw street negotiations. What are your thoughts on that? Ryan: I don't know if you are right or wrong because I intentionally don't do business with people that I don't like. [crosstalk 00:15:45.7] Joe: So, therefore, anybody that wants to buy a business from you if you don't like them then you've got to do that to work with somebody you like. A classic- Ryan: I don't think everybody has that mentality though. I think I would even go as far as to say the majority of people are buying and selling based on numbers or like the deal and very few entrepreneurs get to find every purchase as a person. And so I think most people are approaching it by numbers and logically rather than is there a connection here. I personally … just like for the protection of my own lifestyle am willing to say no to anything that I personally don't like. And what that does is it always puts me in a strong negotiating position because if I don't like somebody I have no problem walking away. And the person who has … the person who is most willing to walk usually has the upper hand in the negotiation. Joe: I agree 100%. I find that from a buyer's perspective one of the questions I get a lot from buyers if I'm up on a panel or speaking or something like this is how do I negotiate up against an all cash buyer, somebody that's got more money than me? And the tried and true answer is really is be likeable. It's … you don't necessarily have to have more cash to get the deal done and I … the classic example is I sold a business last fall. It was about two and a $2.5M and the guy had two full price offers within the first 10 days. One was from an all cash buyer who was a little rough around the edges and was hard to work with. The other was from a really likable guy who was buying with an SBA loan and actually required 10% seller financing in that. The entrepreneur, the seller of this business had the choice; you could go for the all cash or you can go for the guy that he liked. He actually chose the full price SBA buyer and chose to carry a 10% seller note versus working with somebody that he didn't like. So in that situation, I think it makes a difference in terms of … buyers that are listening be likable. If you're working with a broker you absolutely have to be likeable because they're … as you said it's more of a seller's market. And there's a lot of buyers out there. There are buyers that are competing for that same business and when they're likeable they're going to build rapport and when you build rapport you sometimes learn about things before they hit the market as well. Ryan, talk to me about some of the mistakes you've made in your own business. Maybe two or three of the biggest mistakes that comes up at the top of your head. Looking back and learning damn I screwed that up if I ever do that again I'm going to it a different way. Ryan: Well, every time I've made a mistake it was because I was playing the short term. So when I have made short term decisions I usually make bad decisions. I like to say that the longer term that I can make decisions the wiser I am and the better decisions that I make. I said before that people forget that behind every purchase is a person … that goes for customers too and all relationships are long term relationships. Or the best relationships are long term relationships. So if you are aware that behind every transaction is a person and you play it like it's a long term relationship you end up building the better company. Sometimes in spite of a short term decision, meaning … for example as we're recording this there's a … in the Amazon there's a thing we're calling review gate where Amazon is coming in and hit them onto your businesses and removing their reviews. And it's been a bloodbath. It's been absolute bloodbath. And the people who are soaring through it are people who have been doing of the right things the right way for the longest. And the people who are being hurt the most are the people who are the most profitable over the last couple years because they played the tactic game. And like there's absolutely room for tactics inside of every business but those who have been building really solid brands and building audiences and building followings they're going to soar right through this and capture a whole heck of a lot of market share. So the mistakes that I made were always in saying what's the Band-Aid solution here rather than building for the long term. So we take a rule now in the business that we're building, we say okay here's the situation that we're in rather than talk about how we're going to fix it let's say what do we wish we had started doing 90 days ago and that would have made today a lot easier to get through? That's the decision that we need to make today which is a really hard conversation to have when you're in reaction mode. But we force ourselves to ask that question because it usually addresses whatever the root cause is that we need to fix rather than going for a Band-Aid solution. So that being mistake number one, mistake number two would be as a leader telling people what to do. There's a great book called Multipliers that really morphed my brain in terms of how I can affect [inaudible 00:20:52.9] people. And what I realize after reading that book was that I have been diminishing the talents on my teams by telling people what I wanted them to do rather than casting a vision and inviting people to build their piece of that. Now that seems kind of a nuance and maybe overly simplistic but I couldn't emphasize enough the accountability that this book brought me on how much I was diminishing the people that I was working with, And the difference in energy and growth that happened once I started correcting those issues. So as an entrepreneur, we often have like our baby that we're bringing in to our team and we're telling people how to build the baby when reality if we're working with smart people they'll probably own that area of expertise better than we can even if we can't see it. And the big distinction of that book highlights is someone who diminishes their team is usually the smartest person in the room but a real leader makes the rest of the team like they're the smartest person in the room. And that was a huge shift in my overall happiness and with the growth of my companies and it's something that I wished that I had done before I was building companies to sell them. Joe: What kind of staffing do you have just out of curiosity? Ryan: Well, the company that I just exited was a team of four. The portfolio of companies … of brands that I have is a team of five. And my media company capitalism.com is a team of six. Joe: And are all of those people in-house or do you do some … or the VA's are they working remotely or they come to the office every day? Ryan: I'm only counting in-house people so that does not count freelancers. But no not everybody … we have … there's, we are a distributed team. So like I'm recording this in my office right now, one of my team members is just right here my side. But people will come in and out. Some people … like we have a team member in Canada, we have a team member in Germany, but they're all full time dedicated to [inaudible 00:22:47.0]. Joe: Good. I asked that because you know most people that are listening would probably be considered lifestyle entrepreneurs and they have to outsource staff and VA's and people working remotely. So it's good to know that even though they're not coming into your office every day this is really important [inaudible 00:23:02.3] get their short term vision don't have that long term vision so that you don't have major major stomach aches with algorithm updates we'll review gates in that situation and then over managing of the staff you know let them be their experts; anything else that comes to mind? Ryan: As far as big mistakes that I've made … I mean we talked about the mistake in selling and as far as building the business I'll say I wished that I had spent more money on cold advertising. Like always like there's never been a business that was like ah you know I think I spent too much on advertising. I've only ever said I wish I'd spent more on advertising. Joe: Yeah, where would you have spent it because these are primarily Amazon based businesses correct? Ryan: The businesses that I personally built, yes. Joe: Right. So where would you spend that money? Ryan: So we just identified the problem because you said they were mostly Amazon based businesses so had I done things even better I would have doubled down on non-Amazon advertising. Because what … if you're an Amazon business which is like nails on a chalkboard to me because it means you're dependent on somebody else. Joe: Right. Ryan: It means that you're dependent on this channel and you've got to go double down on building a business has a different leg to the stool and that when you combine those things together magic can happen. If you've got an email list of 100,000 people that you've built from cold advertising or from buying tripwires and now you're combining that with the power of something like Amazon.com that's really really powerful. Most physical products sellers never make that [inaudible 00:24:32.6] or they get so myopic into one channel that they never spend the money and the time to go develop the advertising for another channel. I wish I had been comfortable losing my rear end on other advertising channels until I figured out those systems. It's interesting Joe, it's true that every channel you will lose for a while and then you figure out the systems and then you start to grow through it and you get profitable. The strange thing is that most people once they've figured it out and get profitable they're unwilling to go do that hard work in another area. So the way that Amazon worked in 2013, '14, and '15 was if you spend until you grab long enough you could outrank everybody else and go win but I never … I lost that hustle when it came down to Facebook Ads or influencers and people start looking for the immediate ROI. In what business is there immediate ROI? When you're building a long term brand that has sales potential … like buyers are buying the systems; they're buying profitable systems because you've already gone through that hard work of developing the systems that are profitable. But it requires you to go build them so I wish I had spent more on advertising, been more willing to lay it on the line, rolled more back into reinvestment. So I'll call that mistake number three. Joe: So for buyers and sellers that are listening, entrepreneurs that are listening it's that one legged stool, two legged stool, three legged stool. If you're 100% Amazon business it's riskier than if you also have a revenue channel from Google Ad Words and driving traffic to your Shopify store and you might be doing wholesale or B2B things of that nature but right away as I've said before if you've got a business that's just at within $100,000 in discretionary earnings that's 100% Amazon same business $100,000 in discretionary earnings but you've got 60% Amazon, 25% Shopify, I guess that would be 15% percent [inaudible 00:26:36.4] my math here, another percent of B2B that business on the other side is going to be worth 15 to 20% more. So you might be breaking even or losing a little bit of money on that land grab trying to grab more customers but if you can turn that into even the same discretionary earnings that business automatically is going to be worth 15 to 20% more because the buyers will pay more for a risk averse business that'll be around for the longer term so very very good advice. What channel would you go to first? Because there are so many options these days and building a channel off of Amazon is hard as you know. You've got to learn a whole new expertise. Where would you go first and what do most of your successful folks do? Ryan: Yeah and I'm actually going to cue on very creatively sidestepped this question because the obvious is Amazon. But where I would suggest is actually people double down on where the audience is. To me, this is the nut has to be cracked if their building a sellable company. And what that means to me it is for some people their audience hangs out following influencers. For other people that is they follow blogs or they have a blog where the audiences are already hanging out. Or some people they've got a Facebook where there's an audience. Now what most businesses, especially like a million dollar businesses, are doing is they're going channel first and trying to extract as much of it as possible. Like I'm going to go to Amazon try to rank and pull as much out of this pie as possible. Only a few people can win that game but if you switch it and you say where are my people who is the ideal buyer and where are they then the channel where you collect the order can always change. And that makes Shopify, Amazon, B2B a whole lot easier. The first nut that you have to crack isn't where the buyers hang out apart from the sales transaction and then you bring those buyers to the transaction. So the transaction to me … Amazon, easy no question. Put your product on Amazon the credit card is already there, people are already looking for it. No question, easy, done. The nut that needs to be cracked is what happens one step before that. And if there is … like if you don't have the influence, the list, the following, the traffic, the pay-per-click strategy that some way to go get those people and bring them into your ecosystem I think you are struggling from the get go and that's the primary question that I ask the entrepreneur. Joe: Yeah and I think depending upon as you say the product and what they're offering some of those different channels will make more sense. You know I had a conversation with someone this morning that has several brands and one brand has incredible numbers with email marketing and that same expertise applied to that different brand doesn't do as well. Ryan: Right. Joe: They're driving people to their Shopify store though Amazon keeps growing and out phasing everything else. So I understand identify where your customers hang out and then you've got to go find those customers. To own that list though you need to send them to your own store, not to Amazon. So are you sort of balancing between sending them to Amazon because it's all there or? Ryan: No, I just disagree. So I think that the loyalty to the brand is the customer experience. And you give the customer the ability to give you money wherever they are most comfortable making the purchase. I heard Brian Lee say where it's … Brian Lee is the founder of the Honest Company, the billion dollar brand with Jessica Alba, and I heard him say once that he considers it a win when the product is in the customer's home. That's when you've wo, not collecting it online e-commerce site, not getting into retail. It's when the product is in the customer's home. However, they get it and you want to release as little friction as possible getting the product into the customer's home. You will own the customer experience when you have their data. You have the ability to communicate a message in front of them. So if you've got the email list and you send them over to Amazon, Amazon rewards that and your conversion rate is probably going to be higher sending them to Amazon that sending them to your Shopify store. So there's a balance [inaudible 00:31:12.7] I know that I can get a higher immediate customer value sending them to my own web site because I can put them through upsells and cross sells to get their immediate data versus sending them to Amazon where I am going to have to work to get their data. I don't have any upsell experience. They might see a negative review. And so the entrepreneur is going to have to play the game of where the numbers make the most sense over the long term. But I think that the actual customer experience happens in when you communicate with them. And that's in the email message, that's in the outside of just a transaction, not just where their credit card is being added but words being communicated. Joe: Okay, I get and I'm just going to repeat it for those that are … well not smarter than me; let's put it that way. So it's capturing the customer information up front, building that relationship with them, and then simply send them to the place that they can buy the product and experience the brand with the least amount of friction and get it in their home. Ryan: Nailed it. Joe: Okay. Ryan: That's my opinion. Joe: And it all goes back I would say and it's kind of almost unspoken that the brand has to be pretty amazing so focus on that first. Build a great product, a great brand so they have a great experience and then do all that other stuff as well. Ryan: Yeah and let me address that because that often brings up the question how do I identify a brand? Like what exactly is the brand. And the brand is the way that trust is communicated to a very specific customer. Most Amazon sellers have no idea over their customers they know what their product is. If you know what you sell and not who you sell to you do not have a brand. Or you might have a brand but it's really lousy whereas if you know who the person is, it makes the product really really easy. I was just meeting with one of my team members today; we were expressing the frustration over one of our brands in our portfolio. Because when we acquired it, it sold a lot of product but it had no target market. And so we've had to do a lot of work to convert that brand into an actual brand where people are not just buying a product but they're buying something and it says about them sells. Those businesses last, product businesses don't because they're commodities. You forget about commodities and the minute that there's a better price or better customer experience their loyalty changes. But when you've got the brand people are very stingy with their trust. I want to give it to you, you have them for as long as you keep their trust. Joe: Very important message right there. Ryan, any thoughts in terms of whether someone should be building this business and always think about the future and possible exits; do you try to instill in them that they should know the value of their business in the event they wake up some day and want to move on or do you just focus on building that brand and when you're ready the time will come? Ryan: You know the real … the temptation for me is to say that no, you shouldn't be necessarily thinking about selling but I know that I'm in a different spot than everyone who's listening. So I would say if you are building this to make money, be building it to sell from day one. Because the very act of being in it for the money means that you will burn out, you will wake up and want to do something else. It's going to happen. So if that … and like let's just be real about it, if you're in it because of the payday, build it to sell because that's what you're in it for and the payday is the cherry at the end of the rainbow here. If you were in it because you've got a product you want to bring to the world then still develop the systems and processes that will keep you in the position to be in your zone of genius. And that will make you more sellable one day but I don't think it's necessary for you to know what it's worth or be making decisions based on that. So these are different goals. Now I build companies that I'm excited about and I am building them in the same way that we make something valuable because I want to be in a position where I'm just in my zone of genius. But it's a different mindset than if I'm building something because it's going to be profitable. Does that make sense Joe? Joe: Absolutely; excellent …excellent. Hey listen I know we're running out of time here I just want to say that last summer I was at the stock market conference and you got up and you spoke as did another dozen or so very very successful entrepreneurs. Each and every one of them had a PowerPoint presentation. You got up there with nothing. And you talked for an hour and the audience was captivated as was I. You have a gift thank you for sharing it. I appreciate it. Ryan: I just got goose bumps. Thank you so much, mate. I really appreciate it. Joe: How do more people get to experience that and listen to you and hear what you do share? Ryan: You know I'd love to answer that question, can I offer one more piece of advice before we go? Joe: You can offer a dozen more pieces of advice. Ryan: Wow, awesome. I'll leave it to one but if you are in this to please have a plan of what you're going to do with the money when you get it. Entrepreneurs are magicians. We remake things up here on thin air. We create value out of thin air. We create a bigger pie. We make money show up. And we also make things disappear. Joe: Isn't that true? Ryan: And if you do not have a plan of what you're going to do with the money it will slip through your fingers. I know you think you're the exception. I know you think all I have to do is invest this at 8% and I'm [inaudible 00:37:11.5]. I know you think that's how it's going to be. You will ball the money. I … right now I just heard you think “no I won't”, yes you will. So if you don't have a net for catching the money and allocating the money for your lifestyle you will be back in the grind very very quickly. I promise you, I know you don't believe me. I'm here to tell you that's the case. Have a plan for what to do with the money once you get the money. It's actually my favorite conversation to have. At some point, I'll probably have more chops [inaudible 00:37:45.3] about investing once you have a big windfall. But for now, it's like have a plan like a plan is better than no plan. And that plan would probably be best done after you sat on the money for about six months and you've gotten used to that money being in the bank account. Your second question or actually your only question was- Joe: Can I interrupt that? Ryan: Please. Joe: I definitely want to get to that but in terms of having the plan to exit, I'm always telling people look have your next adventure planned. Because entrepreneurs like you say they blow through the money, it goes through their hands like saying. I'm often saying maybe get that other opportunity started and launched long as it's not competing to get the ball rolling. So that you got some working capital maybe you're going to put it in … some of it you're not as bootstrapped although you'll be more successful probably if you are. Do you think maybe they should 100% focus on what they're doing on that brand before they sell it up until the day they sell or maybe when it gets big enough and good enough and they've done enough right they can take some of their attention and start Brand B while they're selling off Brand A? Ryan: Wow, Joe. The reason I'm saying wow is because my experience is pretty unique and that was I took about a week off and then I immediately went back to workaholism and it was the worst. It was a horrible experience. Now full disclose like at the same time I was going through separation and I'm going through a lot life changes. I threw myself into work right after the sale. I celebrated by reading books on my patio for like eight days and I was immediately back to workaholism. And I like … I roasted my body, I mean I so needed a break and I did not give myself that break. I don't know if every entrepreneur was as burnt out as I was. I was more burnt out than I [inaudible 00:39:40.5]. Joe: Most ideal [inaudible 00:39:42.8] they come to me tired, exhausted, ready to move on. Ryan: Joe, it's been over a year. I wouldn't even say I'm back now. You know I'm probably operating at 75% of capacity because I never really recovered. So should you go right back into it? I don't know. I think it depends on the level you're at and your own wiring. I make really good decisions when I'm relaxed and creative. I make terrible short term decisions when I'm stressed. And when I'm in that workaholic mode I'm a terrible entrepreneur. I wish I had just blissed out for like three months; I didn't. Joe: I don't know what the folks that listen to you every week would do if you would disappear for three months though. Ryan: Well here's the thing though Joe. I kind of did. Like my podcast sucked for like three months, three to six months and I was trying … like I'm sitting in front of mic trying to come up with things to say and I was uncreative as heck. So I sort of did disappear it was just a different way. And now I'm getting back to it and it's a completely different experience. But I actually think I did my listeners a disservice by not taking a break. And if have been just really upfront and be like guys I just got an eight figure check I am going to the beach and I will call you when I'm ready. My audience would've popped but instead, I was like operating from this place of like I'm so … oh my goodness I'm so tired and I turned off a lot of people. I know it's not the answer that you expected it's not the answer I expected to give you. Joe: No, I like it. Ryan: But I think it's true. Joe: I think sleep and rest and meditation or whatever it is to focus on is absolutely necessary. So back to that original question and you know finding out what they do with the money after they sell. How do they get more of Ryan Daniel Moran? How do they experience what that audience down at Smart Market and myself experienced where you just talked and everybody listened and took notes and all that? Ryan: Well, thanks so much, man, my media company is capitalism.com. My podcast is called Freedom Fast Lane. And I say things into a microphone and we hold events at capitalism.com that are specifically for entrepreneurs. And we're actually … we just rebooted the Freedom Fast Lane podcast. I feel as though- Joe: With fresh energy. Ryan: What's that? Joe: With fresh energy right? Ryan: Well yeah, I think you'd probably feel it from me. Five years ago I started this journey as a boy and I was … I just put everything I owned into my car, drove to Austin, Texas, started some new companies, I documented the whole experience from startup to sale. And then I kind of grew up while documenting the journey. And now there's a new journey and it's a much bigger one and so we just rebooted kind of the entire audience, the whole experience in the podcast. And my podcast is called Freedom Fast Lane. My company is capitalism.com. Joe: Okay. Well, I'll make sure those are in the show notes. I'd love to see you be more successful on this new adventure, this bigger journey. Ryan: Thank you. Joe: Let's stay in touch. I think I may see you at the capitalism conference at the end of August; let's see. At the very least we'll be to as many as we can be over the next few years. Ryan: Good to see you man, thank you so much for having me. Joe: Thanks for your time, I appreciate it. Links: Capitalism.com FreedomFastlane.com
The way I see it, a clinical trial is a bridge between research and the patient, this is an opportunity to access the latest treatment out there to get the best outcome possible, which is what it's all about, right? So, in order to find out more about how it all fits together, I'm talking to Ian Davis who is the chair of ANZUP, a group of medical experts who look after clinical trials for below-the-belt cancers. Here is what we cover in this conversation: The Guinea Pig myth Are clinical trials safe? When is placebo given (if at all) Clinical trials as decision support tools Why you should ask about one now and much, much more! Links ANZUP Trials Group ANZUP ClinTrial Refer app Australian New Zealand Clinical Trials Registry Episode 007: How To Use Your Inner Resources To Better Deal With Cancer Full Transcript Joe: Ian, it's such a pleasure to meet you and to talk to you about clinical trials. I'm really excited about it because to me, really, clinical trials are the front line to fighting cancer. It's making a huge difference for folks out there. Unfortunately, most people don't realise how important this is and the critical role it plays in fighting cancer. What's your perspective on that? Ian: Yes, thanks, Joe, for the chance to talk to you and to talk about clinical trials. It's very important. Every time you go to your doctor to get your blood pressure medication, or the medicine for your cholesterol, or even if you're going to go and buy some vitamins from the chemist and you think that's going to help you, you do that because you got some information about it. You know that, here is a treatment that might help you in your condition or might not. You've got information about how safe it is. When you should use it and when you shouldn't use it. You might not be aware you got that information but it's there. That exists because clinical trials have been done in all of those situations. Every time you go to the doctor and you have cancer and you're having a discussion about what sort of treatment might be appropriate for you, the advice that's being given to you is being given in the context that a clinical trial has been done and it's given you evidence. Now, we hope that that's the case. The reality is, for many of the clinical situations we find ourselves in, the evidence is not there, we're extrapolating from what we know or from the basic science, or from our understanding of the condition but there might not be a clinical trial to guide us in decision-making. In that situation, it becomes a whole lot harder to make recommendations for people. That's why we need to continue to push this agenda of doing more clinical trials, doing them better, so that we can get more information, help people, and support them in their decision-making. Joe: Absolutely. Yes, that's fantastic, Ian. There are so many myths and misconceptions about it, I think it's really important to be really clear about that. A lot of them is that clinical trials are administered as a last resort, is that true? Ian: No, it's absolutely not true. Sometimes it's appropriate to think about taking part in a clinical trial as a very first treatment. We do a lot of those clinical trials here, at our hospital and through ANZUP Cancer Trials Group, where we do clinical trials for genitourinary cancers. Many of the trials we're doing are sometimes the first treatment that someone might have had from their disease. Definitely not a last resort. People should understand that if they're going on a clinical trial, they'll always get the best possible treatment. Joe: Yes, absolutely. I think that implies that it's an experiment, this has been thoroughly researched and it builds on this body of knowledge that already exists out there. Ian: That's right.
In this episode, Chris Martin of Type Classes and Joe LaSala of The Frontside talk about blockchain development. Do you have opinions on this show? Want to hear about a specific topic in the future? Reach out to us at contact@frontside.io or on Twitter at @thefrontside. This show was produced by Mandy Moore, aka @therubyrep of DevReps, LLC. TRANSCRIPT: JOE: Hey, everybody. Welcome to Episode 104 of The Frontside Podcast. I'm Joe LaSala. I'm a developer here at the Frontside and I'm going to be hosting today's episode. Today we're going to be associating blockchains and other cryptographically secure technologies and everything that has to do with the web and the future of the web. We have with us Chris Martin and he's currently with Type Classes. What do you do over there, Chris? CHRIS: Our goal is to teach functional programming with Types, specifically with Haskell and a little bit Nix. We do subscription video service. JOE: There seems to be, I guess a bit of an overlap between people who are into functional programming and people who are involved in this new space that has opened up, this new web, I guess and that's something that I want to talk about based on a tweet that I saw you made recently. You mentioned that there's a big section of the Haskell community that is being drawn into whatever the hot ICO is at that moment there, something along those lines. CHRIS: Some of it are bitcoin people or something else but there's definitely a weird overlap that I can't fully explain. JOE: It seems like strange bedfellows, right? CHRIS: Well, there's a couple of things that make sense, which I think the distributed systems in cryptography are kind of these notoriously hard problems. I think when somebody wants to convince their boss that they really need to use Haskell for this problem, I think they can make a persuasive argument in this case. JOE: That's interesting. There's actually, a lot of technology around blockchains around bitcoins, specifically being written in Haskell. I didn't know they were technologically overlapped like that. I guess I just thought they were two very kind of passionate communities but you're saying that a lot of the bitcoin startups that you might see coming out in any given week are actually being written with an eye towards functional programming. Is that accurate? CHRIS: I don't know about bitcoin along this bit but I think some of the people who are working for banks and trying to develop their own sort of novel internal blockchains and stuff, I think those are the people who see this. Although in the case of banks, we don't necessarily see what's coming out of them, so we can't verify whether they're actually shipping things or not. JOE: Yeah. That means there's a lot to touch on there. I would agree with you on your initial sentiment, also just to extend to say that I think personally that both communities are really evangelical. Functional programmers, people who are into functional programming, for me it hasn't clicked yet and I know that it will come into my heart. I've asked functional programming to kind of where things are starting to fall into line where I'm certain to see the world in that way but for people who have seen the light fully, I'm sure believers once monads and functors kind of enter the conversation. They don't leave. It's similar like when bitcoin first started and everybody's running about the gold standard. Really, it's just nothing. It was hard to find resources on it that did the most of the amount of screaming. CHRIS: Yeah, you're absolutely right, that culturally, they're going to attract the same group of people or the people who are willing to adopt something that's not fully fleshed out yet, people who want to take what they believe and sit in this community and try and spread it to the rest of the world. I think it's the same kind of people. JOE: The early adoption, I think is something I can consider too. I guess it's a very risk-oriented group. CHRIS: Yeah, kind of. I mean, Haskell is pretty old, I guess but -- JOE: That's fair, yeah. CHRIS: -- Some of the changes that really make it, it great and usable lately are pretty [inaudible]. JOE: That's interesting. You mentioned this idea -- we kind of skipped over a little bit but thanks, having their own blockchains and that's something that I think that maybe people not actively following this space, which is I will say, a very hard space to keep up for those of us who are actively following it. But those who may just know blockchain through the name of an iced tea company changing or some sensational news article or what have you or just through bitcoin even, but I know that it's not the blockchain. It's not a singular blockchain. It's very easy to implement the fundamental structure. It's a linked list, essentially, with the kind of a cryptographic thing that keeps from breaking that link. Those links are inserting new history, I guess the further you go back. I guess people are even exploring different data structures like directed acyclic graphs and stuff and how that could be used to map other domains but the reality is it's a linked list and you can spend up as many of them as you want and you can mine blocks based on all this different criteria. Bitcoin is a proof of work associated with the minting of a new block and that's been a problem for them as they scale as a currency but it could be a history of anything and the minting of those blocks can be based on anything. You mentioned banks, the financial kind of sector is certainly interested in these smaller private chains but do you think there's a use for that consumer market as well? How do you think that your personal blockchain or set of blockchains might be a factor in the hobbyist of the futurist life? CHRIS: Oh, wow. That's a different question than I thought. [inaudible] where you're going with that -- JOE: Where do you think I was going? CHRIS: Well, we're talking about banks and so, the question is now everybody other than banks -- JOE: Well, it could be everybody, including banks too, however you want to take it. CHRIS: Yeah. There's a much harder question, I think of what in the world we're actually saying when we are talking about blockchain, right? The notion obviously has started with bitcoin but if what you want to do is bitcoin, then you should just be as in bitcoin, so what are we talking about similar bitcoin and the general phrase people have they like to throw in here is Byzantine fault tolerance. I'm talking about any kind of system that can have multiple participants. We're used to talking about clusters of computers and making systems that can work if one of them fails, if one of them just stops working but now, we're starting to talk about how do we make systems work if one of them gets hacked, then we still have some assurances that the whole system works together as a whole. JOE: Would you consider Byzantine fault tolerance to be the defining factor of a blockchain because I feel like there's the timestamping element that goes along with it. I feel like they're kind of part and parcel, right? CHRIS: Kind of but if you're not considering Byzantine faults, if you're only talking about systems where you have benign faults, which is a machine goes down sometimes, then timestamping isn't really a problem because we can just use NTP and we all have a pretty sensible idea of what time it is. JOE: Time specifically, even just like, I guess order. I always considered sequence to be a massive part of what a blockchain fundamentally was. You have the distributed aspect of the network that gives this sort of resilience to malicious intent but not only is it protected, I guess against demolition and malicious intent by this crowd strength but also just fundamentally through the cryptographic side of it, you can't go in and insert things that didn't happen. Once that order has been said, it's been written in stone, basically, right? Because the way I understood is there were papers coming out of Bell Labs in the early 90s and those two things set as approaches to this independently and it wasn't until the internet advance so we put them together and we're able to achieve Byzantine fault tolerance through that. Is that, I mean...? CHRIS: It does help a lot, I think to buck up and think about what the state of research was in the 90s because I think that's something that a lot of people in blockchain space kind of lose sight of. You have a whole lot of people writing papers now who didn't used to be academics until a couple of years ago. It was the early 90s where we started having faxes and we started having what later turned into what's kind of known as raft. Like you said, they solved the ordering problem. Even something as simple as what we call Lamport clocks which is you have sort of a virtual timestamps and as long as nobody's malicious, if you remove the timestamp forward, then we can all have something that resembles the deterministic forward flow of time. Then, that milestone that I was like to remind people of this in 1999 is when we had the paper practical Byzantine fault tolerance. JOE: That was '99. You're talking about the... was it Castro and --? CHRIS: Liskov, yeah. JOE: Okay. I didn't know it was '99. CHRIS: Interestingly, the same Liskov that the Liskov substitution principles named for, Barbara Liskov. It's also a distributed systems research. JOE: That's swell as well. I kind of heard the concept of Byzantine fault tolerance but I never read this paper. I'm also surprised to find that it didn't come out of that same period of the early 90s and it was as far as '99. I haven't read its entirety but I did fall asleep reading it last night. You mentioned this specifically, I guess, when we're talking today, as a paper that is important. It's the work that we're trying to do at... was it Hijro, I think? CHRIS: Yeah. JOE: Yeah, so what kind of work were you doing there and what is important to you, I guess about this paper specifically, when you look at all the research that went into priming the community for the space that we are now in? CHRIS: When I joined Hijro, I got kind of a difficult and nebulous mission, which was that everyone in and around that space that was trying to sell to banks was if you said the word blockchain, you could get your foot in the door because all the banks were looking at bitcoin and saying, "Well, look, this is clearly something that's going to be big and we don't want to be missing out, so we have to figure out how this applies to us." JOE: What year is this? They were working this in 2014-ish, is that right? CHRIS: '15 or '16, I think. The question was trying to figure out what aspect of it was actually what they wanted here. What Hijro is trying to sell them, the details aren't even important for this conversation but we need an interbank solution. We needed a ledger of accounts that 'we weren't a bank so we couldn't be the one holding everyone's money and keeping track of the flow of money in our network.' We were on something that the banks were truly in charge of but we didn't want to necessarily have our platform be owned by a particular bank. We wanted to be the sort of consortium of all of our partners. JOE: Consortium is a keystone word I think here, that we should definitely come back to that. CHRIS: Yeah and people talk about, if I use the word consortium blockchain, I think sometimes in contrast with the public blockchain, with the 'free anyone can join' blockchain. JOE: Yeah. I'm particularly fascinated by this concept. That is a term that is used. I can confirm this. But you're doing that pretty early then because I feel like that concept didn't make it out into, I guess the public understanding, until recently or maybe I'm just behind at times. CHRIS: Yeah, I guess so. I don't know. When I start working on this, I just spent a couple of months trying to read papers about what was in space and I guess, the only big name that was trying to do something like this was Tendermint. JOE: Tendermint? Interesting. CHRIS: You can pick out technologies like this because the magic number is always one-third. They can tolerate Byzantine failure up to one-third of the nodes. That was a theoretical result that was reached, just sort of the best you can do. Before BFT and then BFT is one of those solutions in that category and Tendermint does something similar. JOE: That, I guess is sort of the background to this paper and it's impacting your life. I guess, what is put forth in this paper is to solve for higher tolerance. Would that be the right way to put it? CHRIS: Did you say higher tolerance? JOE: Yes. You're talking about the Byzantine tolerance is 30%, right? With Tendermint? But you're saying that they're doing something similar to that's before in the paper? CHRIS: The most interesting thing to me, I think is probably, hopefully possible to convey concisely is the rationale behind the one-third number because that took a while for me to really appreciate but I think it really clicked when it did. One of the hardest intuitions to get people to break, I don't know, way of thinking to shift, I guess is convincing people that consensus is even a hard problem because I had this conversation a lot with people that'd say, "I've got this JavaScript library here, for instance that just lets me broadcast a message to all the nodes in a cluster, so why can I just do that?" Why can't we just use one at a time to do it and if I detected someone's trying to cheat, if I get two different messages from someone that are conflicting, maybe I can just ignore them. JOE: Not in finance. That's kind of ironic, I guess that you found it difficult to get people to come to a consensus about the importance of consensus. CHRIS: Right. The basic flow of all these things is we describe them as voting systems. We have voting rounds where each time, like you said the blockchain of the ledger or whatever it is, just a linked list, so the problem of using consensus build database is we're just going to iteratively try to vote or come to consensus on what the next block is. What the next ledger entry should be? Obviously, since we don't have a synchronized wall clock to go by, we have to assume messages can come in any order. We might all sort of speak up simultaneously and propose different blocks as the next one, at which point we have to start over and retry that. But furthermore, I can send different votes to different people if I'm trying to be malicious and that's where the tricky part comes on. The rationale for the one-third number, maybe I can just try to come around to that and say it directly then, is that when we take a vote for what the next block is going to be, we need the supermajority. We need two-thirds of the participants to have all said the same thing and the rationale for that is it's actually easier to think of it backwards. Rather than saying, two thirds of the total, what we say is, "If we're going to allow some fixed number of nodes to fail, to behave maliciously --" you know, we traditionally call that number 'F' in the paper, then what we say is we need 3F+1 total nodes to be participating. JOE: I didn't know that was sort of codified into how conflict is resolved on things like bitcoin during blockchain. It's inherent, I guess. CHRIS: No. This is the total opposite of what bitcoin and Ethereum are going to do. JOE: Because I always thought it was just going to be like a majority, I guess but what you are talking about is more like how the Senate would were to pass a resolution to the constitution, like it has to be an exceptional majority. I'm starting to understand why one-third, specifically. It's 3F+1, I guess. CHRIS: The reason is because for each vote, every time I look at the results of a vote, I have to be able to assume that some number that we called F, of the people that I've heard back from are trying to cheat me. It turns out I need to be sure that the majority of the votes that I've heard back are from people who are actually following the protocol correctly and not lying. We need to be tolerant to two kinds of failure. One is that a node simply goes down and we don't hear from them and we don't receive a vote from them and then the other kind of failure is the Byzantine failure, that they're not following protocol in some way. The reason I need 3F+1 nodes is because we need to be able to make progress, even if F of these number is we didn't hear from at all because they're down and then, I need 2F+1 votes because I need to take into account the possibility that some F of these votes were from cheaters and then we need to have more honest votes than lying votes. JOE: That's pretty profound. I definitely going to finish the rest of this paper while conscious later today. I guess we're a little off with regard to math at this point and it's when you said, you spent I guess a month or so just reading papers around the time you started with Hijro and I guess did you stop because I feel like I've read just more white papers than ever thought I would outside of the academic setting, just trying to keep pace with what's been going on, particularly with regard to the web. I don't if you're familiar with like IPFS but these sort of directed acyclic graph things are popping up all over the place and platforms are even now being built on this concept. I guess, Ethereum feels impractical in a lot of ways. These dime-a-dozen tutorials, when you started talking about the global computer that is Ethereum and the blockchain and it's going to change everything in the internet and you won't have to pay Comcast like some central authority or you just pay for each transactions. The reality of it is every time you do a write against a data store have, first of all, thousands of computers go and verify that and also, you don't want to store your information on a linked list. It's not feasible for storing large data structures and it becomes very expensive for the user and for the person, if you're maintaining a smart contract for the contract itself. These are volatile, all little points of value. It's impractical. CHRIS: It's definitely a cost that you don't want to incur. In all cases, just a confirmation time is a cost you don't want to incur. JOE: Absolutely. CHRIS: There is one nice thing that that you can do in some cases, which is that people is talking about the piggybacking on these blockchains like if I have a system and I just want some extra assurance to keep it honest, then I can do things like periodically publish a hash of my database onto something like bitcoin or Ethereum. JOE: Yeah. That actually happen with anyone in financial... They do publish stuff in the paper and this was before cryptographic ledgers but to basically prove that this was the state of something, I remembered seeing this somewhere, like there would be in financial news, like there'd be some crazy number or string at the top to verify what was on the string. CHRIS: Yes. Of course, the irony there is that you really don't need some kind of blockchain if you want to do that because the fact that we're doing that before the blockchain has existed and doubly, it's funny because the first block of the bitcoin blockchain, the genesis block includes in it, I think a New York Times headline, which was intended as proof that Satoshi or whoever didn't spend years mining bitcoin prior to releasing it. It's supposed to be a proof of the time of the first genesis actually was. It's funny that we are actually already had this verification system and what that demonstrates is sort of a principle of consensus that I like to talk about which is that as you increase the time scale, consensus becomes an easier and easier problem. I think the reason why something like newspaper headlines are reliable means of a timestamp is just mostly because they're big and slow, because there's only one every day. I think the whole challenge like you said of, how a lot of systems kind of boiled down to having the white paper for bitcoin refers it describes bitcoin as a distributed timestamp server, something along those lines. The reason why you need a new technology to do that, I think so that you could have timestamps that are every of couple minutes, rather than every 24 hours. JOE: That's a very interesting take on it. I guess, the more time there is, it is easier to reach a consensus. It's just interesting to think about. It's funny as humans like the longer time passes, the less reliable memory is, I guess, less reliable history as we conceive of it, I guess. It's different when you record something than the way that you hold in the brain that sometimes I wonder how much impact that's had on. It's a little ephemeral, I guess but it's interesting. CHRIS: Yeah. I guess my statement is limited to the on-scale where we can actually fit into memory. JOE: Right, that most of the times, it's the only relevant scale, I guess, like a blockchain doesn't have use outside of our use of it, inherent to it, so it's going to be seen through that lens, I guess of our use of it. I think it is kind of profound, a thing to think about that I definitely considered. You mentioned using blockchains as adding a little bit of... how do you put it? Like truthiness, I guess, we'll say. I know that's not how you put it but adding a little bit of security, maybe around something else but the reality is you can get away with that on a number of other levels. I think that's important and interesting to think about. There seems to be this trend now talking about a blockchain as part of a bigger picture or consortium blockchain or a consortia of blockchains, right? Because a consortia would be multiple and then a consortium would be... No, a consortium would be a single grouping, consortia would be multiple groups. Basically, going back to the problem you're trying to solve with Hijro, you have multiple banks and I believe eventually, I don't know if you work on it, there was a protocol that came out of that company to unify these blockchains, like a few of them. They demoed and everything. That, I think gives you some power with regard to access control but again, I guess, that's not a thing that you really need consensus for. So, where does it fit in? Aside from things like voting and transparent finance for maybe a political cause or in the case of bitcoin, just finance in general. In bitcoin, I feel like we got Mongo DB super hard in the sense that it just got applied to every domain and it applies to very, very few. CHRIS: My boss at Hijro, Lamar Wilson really like to say that people talked about blockchain like it was hot sauce and they sort of sprinkle it on everything to make it better. JOE: That's sad. CHRIS: I guess, two answer to that one. One of the places where it absolutely captivates people's imaginations too far and doesn't work and then places where it doesn't work, so I want to start with the first here because the biggest mistake that people make is that there was this notion of tokenization that came out of Ethereum, where anyone could make a smart contract that represented something and now, also that I can trade digitally. Just like it's money or some kind of digital asset, so people want to talk about putting your car, putting your house on the blockchain or selling it there. But it's just shocking how many times I had to remind people that if I make a smart contract that represents cars and I put my VIN number on it and I transfer you my car, at Ethereum contract in an exchange for a bitcoin, if I call the police and report my car stolen, they're not going to look at the Ethereum contract, right? JOE: Yeah. Man, you're really right. People don't think about that enough. If your car is in the blockchain, your car still on the block. CHRIS: What we had realize when we're selling solutions like this is that they're great for some reasons but you need actual legal agreements to underpin things when you actually make connection to the real world. The magic of bitcoin that can't really be replicated is that the coin actually didn't need a pinning to the real world because the thing bitcoin was running was itself. It just depended on hoping that people were going to find the coin and ledger valuable intrinsically and bitcoin never really purported to control things in the real world. JOE: I guess, definitely not in the paper. There are some place that can buy in from some very specific elements of society that sort of cemented its place as useful but we don't really need to go to that road, I guess. I don't know. You know, my roommate is a lawyer and we have this conversation often and I feel like if we go down law and cryptography, we're going to be talking for too long, where we are at currently. CHRIS: Right and that wasn't your question anyway. It was just what I respond to easiest because being a critic is always the easier thing to do. JOE: I can feel you there. CHRIS: One of the interesting things that I never even found too much about but I noticed this in a couple of passing references as I was reading stuff about Byzantine fault tolerance in general is that it seems to have some application in things like flight control systems and space ships because when you think about a computer that you're going to send into space, you have two things that Byzantine fault tolerance applies to directly. One is you need a lot of redundancy. You need these control systems, maybe you have a dozen things computing the same result because you can't replace the hardware when once you shot something to space. The second thing is once you've sent something outside the atmosphere, all of the sudden, you're being bombarded with a lot more cosmic rays than you were before. Now, you actually really do this idea that computers can fail, not just by stopping but by producing wrong results. All of a sudden, it becomes a lot more real because you actually have physics slipping a bit at your computers. JOE: I don't even think you have to go as far as space if you talk about just like a fleet of something, like self-trading cards. I suppose, in domain where there is an interplanetary file system, it's good to specify the planet we're talking about. Just having worked a little bit with robots in college, they lie all the time and they produce bad data constantly, so not even bad actors just incompetent actors, I guess could definitely... This is something that has to be, I guess on our minds as we move forward as the society that has more connected devices, which I think as much as I would love to have left this conversation off in outer space, I think bringing it around to the internet of things, which is sort of where this all began months and months ago is probably a good place to stop meandering through these cryptographic weeds. You can probably put a pin in this. I think we've been talking about for a while now, I guess and just kind of trying to see what it is and where the applications are. It's constantly changing and never clear, I think is the conclusion that I've come to. I don't know. I think, just kind of shooting the breeze about it is a fitting end to a series of Frontside engagements in this space, for the time being. CHRIS: I've seen several people try to tackle the space of how to stop relying on things like Google Drive to store our data because I think a lot of us have realized that we're tired of losing all of our family photos every time a hard drive dies but a lot of people are uncomfortable with trusting Google with everything. This to me seems like a perfect opportunity for people to start building redundant systems among their home and friends. JOE: Yeah, I completely agree. I'm actively trying to do exactly that right now. CHRIS: Oh, cool. And you don't necessarily want your cluster of machines that's running on all of your family's computers to be able to go down if your 10-year old get some virus, right? JOE: Right and also, there's definitely things that you want just within your home or even just within your section of the home. I guess you could layer chains, to kind of manage those interactions? CHRIS: Sure. I'm not exactly sure what you mean by layering chains. JOE: You could have consortia in this case. If you had like a hypervisor, almost like a control notice, essentially or some type of view from above of this situation, you could say, think of it as a family scenario. We have three different houses on this call that all belong to our immediate family and cousins and whatever and it's like, me and my siblings, we have information that we all want just within the siblings. We don't want Mom and Dad to know. We don't want the cousins to know, so you could basically use like a blockchain to kind of date access to data that is held within that consortium and then the consortia could communicate amongst each other. Only the pertinent information that they wanted to allow access to at that time and then, internally of course, you could have all these different mechanisms for how you actually store that data or how you actually serve it up. It's pretty complicated. CHRIS: Yeah, I think you made a lot of sense, though. JOE: Yeah, cool. I'm hoping so. There's been some work on it out of Microsoft, actually. CHRIS: On the files storage problem, specifically? JOE: I guess this is like with a smart home and kind of just teaching devices to cooperate and ask each other. If you had a section of connected devices that maybe were related to the workflow that a human being might go through to get groceries or something and then a section that's related to doing laundry or whatever, eventually, they would learn to communicate in the laundry grouping and could say, "Hey, grocery people. We're out of soup," or something like that. It's sort of almost happened organically, I guess. I had not actually felt like I found that paper. I've only found references to it. This is where I need to get something like academic access but that was interesting stuff. I don't know how I end up here, either. This has always happening when you're talking about this domain. Anyway -- CHRIS: People's ideas, it's just sort of generally inspiring concept so people is following you everywhere. JOE: Yeah, it's heartwarming. You know, with my ICT, I could look back and see exactly where I usually came from than [inaudible], the name of the farmer who grew with. I don't know. It'd be so much easier to fake most things, really when you think about it. On that note, I hope that this conversation was... I know that there was no JavaScript and I apologize for that but I hope that our audience finds it interesting on some level and I want to thank you for your time. Chris, it was really great talking to you and getting your take on these things as somebody who's been in the industry for a while. Definitely, some fascinating points to consider and definitely, I will finish that white paper, probably this evening because it's pretty cool. If anybody in the audience has anything they'd like to ask you about pertinent to this conversation or anything else, where is a good place to get a hold of you? CHRIS: For me, it's mostly Twitter. I'm @chris__martin. I'm also at Type Classes, if you want to talk to me about our new business. JOE: Cool. This has been Episode 104, I believe of The Frontside Podcast. Frontside, we're a consultancy based in Austin, Texas and we love writing elegant, sustainable code and just producing good stuff, really. I think that's what we're all about. I think, we can agree at least, that's a core tenet of what we do and if you would like us to produce some good stuff for you, feel free to get in touch with us. Also, feel free to reach out via email if you have any ideas for future topics or any feedback about this episode. I also want to thank Mandy for producing this episode. You can catch us next week, I believe for our talk with Brian Douglas on Probot and Robert will be hosting that one, as far as I know. Thank you all for your time and feel free to reach out. This has been The Frontside Podcast. I'm Joe LaSala. Chris Martin, thank you for joining us and have a good day, everybody.
Rochelle Friedman was a corporate lawyer representing some of the top products and brands in the world. A few years ago she jumped ship and started the Walk Law Firm. Now more than 50% of her business is representing both buyers and sellers in transactions that involved the transfer of an Amazon Seller Account. Because of her specialty and expertise, I wanted to have her on the Podcast to share her approach, and what she sees other brokerage firms in the industry doing. In today's Podcast she covers the risks and pitfalls of transferring an account through an asset sale, and talks about the different types of transactions she sees occur. Rochell also delves into the two big “stomach ache” clauses in a typical asset purchase agreement, and how to address them up front so the due diligence and negotiation process is successful. As you've heard us often say…”don't decide to sell, plan to sell”. The same holds true with legal matters. Make sure you are properly incorporated, that your trademarks and copyrights are up to date and transferrable. All of these are part of the assets of your business, and hiring a firm like Walk Law Firm to review them in advance of a sale is advisable. Episode Highlights: Learn Rochell's approach to transferring an Amazon account. Hint…it is the same as ours. Transferring non-US accounts is the same process. Both buyers and sellers need to be happy at closing, or a deal falls apart. Having a qualified contract attorney truly matters. The same attorney will fight differently if their client is the seller vs. the buyer. There are TWO MAJOR stomach clauses in every APA. Address them early on in negotiations. Transcription: Mark: Joe how are you? Joe: I'm doing good Mark. How are you doing today? Mark: You know ever since you got back from Italy you are kicking my butt again when it comes to the number of interviews you're doing for the podcast. I think like three to one, four to one as far as the ratio is concerned and I'm sure our listeners are ecstatic. Joe: I don't know. I actually have the easy part. I just do the interviews you do all of the stuff in the background so thank you and I appreciate it. I just do the interview. And this time for this show I don't … falsely, folks, I talked to an attorney and it was actually a really good call and here's why I had; her name is Rochelle Friedman, she's from Walk Law Firm and you know look with physical products businesses and the transfer of an Amazon Seller Account everybody has questions about how to go about doing it, whether it's a US based account or one that's international. And I came across Rochelle through some other folks that I worked with and I had a call with her. And I just picked up the phone and I called her and chatted with her. Look she does close transactions for Quiet Light Brokerage, for Empire Flippers, for Website Closers and you guys know who they are so it's okay to mention them right? And I know she does that so I wanted to confirm with her what processes, what she does and shockingly Mark it's the same way that we do it believe it or not. And she goes into detail about it, and she goes into great detail about it. Not only that she talks about contracts in general, she represents both buyers and sellers. She's a contract attorney that came from the corporate world representing businesses, every day household businesses, she was their attorney a very good one in the corporate world last went out on her own and now represents both buyers and sellers in transactions. And I think it's worth listening to. I think it's really really important as you and I have talked about how important planning is. Don't wake up and decide to sell but plan to sell, same thing should be said for an attorney; talk to one. Get your ducks in a row and make sure that you're doing the right thing as you go into your transactions you can do it with confidence. Mark: I'm gonna put you on the spot because you said we're going to address in this podcast episode how do you transfer an Amazon business and how are people doing it pretty much across the board. But for anyone that already knows how to do that or has done that what else do we cover in this episode? Joe: She covers the two big stomach ache clauses in contract negotiations. That being the non-compete and the indemnification clause. I think the indemnification clause is the bigger of the two because we do a pretty good job up front addressing the non-compete. And so if you do that work up front in the client interview and work with the seller on that to make sure they understand what a non-compete is and make sure there aren't going to be any issue is never really a problem. The hard one to wrap your brain around, your hands around is the indemnification clause and what that is from a seller's standpoint. You sell your business you think you're done, you get 100,000 200,000 a million dollars in your bank account and you move on about your merry way. You sleep really well at night because you got a bunch of money in your account. Well, your buyer's attorney is going to have something in there that is going to have them reach back into your bank account and take some money out if you lied or cheated or stole or did anything fraudulent in anyway. Now you should sleep well if everything was done right but if there's anything that wasn't they're going to put that in there. And they're gonna put that in there anyway and the big question is how long is that grace period for? Is it six months or 12 months or 18, and then how much is it for? And Rochelle you know towards the end of the podcast she laughs and she chuckles and she talks about how … well she has one standard when she's representing the buyer and she has a completely other standard when she's representing the seller so it's good to hear from both sides for sure. But the stomach ache clauses are really important in there as well. Mark: That's fantastic. And those are easily interest almost guaranteed at it every time we send out a purchase agreement on those two clauses. Joe: Guaranteed. Mark: You always see stuff. All right let's get in to see what she has to say about all of this including in the indemnification stuff. Let's get to it. Joe: Hey folks it's Joe from Quiet Light Brokerage and today I've got Rochelle Walk from Walk Law Firm on the line with me today. How are you doing Rochelle? Rochelle: I'm doing great Joe, how are you today? Joe: I'm doing well. I have a sister in law name Richelle so if I mispronounce your name during the podcast at all today that's the reason why. I'm apologizing in advance. Rochelle: Not a problem at all. Joe: As we talked about a little bit before recording we don't do fancy introductions so if you could just give the audience a little bit of background on yourself. Tell them about who you are and the work you do that'd be great. Rochelle: Sure. Thanks, Joe. First off all thanks for having me on, I appreciate the opportunity. My background is actually a little bit complicated because I have been practicing law for 33 years but unlike a lot of other lawyers, most of my practice has been as a general counsel or as the chief administrative officer of very large public companies. So most of my time spent as a lawyer has actually been as a business person. And I like to explain myself as a business person who happens to also be a good lawyer. Joe: Excellent. Rochelle: And when I started this firm I was at the point where I was leaving a major public company, decided I wanted to do something different, and decided I wanted to use the same skills I garnered as a business person and lawyer for really large public companies and turn it into something that would work well for small to mid-size companies. So during my years in my big company world, I worked heavily in consumer products. I was head of license brands for Sherwin-Williams, brands like Martha Stewart, Ralph Lauren, I worked with Dutch Boy, I worked with Thompson-Minwax, Krylon, very famous brands. And then I left there and I was at a company called Oglebay Norton it was mining and minerals. We had clients and customers like Home Depot but we also had heavy industry as clients and lots of engineers. And then ultimately I went to a company called Anchor Glass and it was consumer glass, some of your favorite beverages, as a matter of fact, would be bottled in the glass containers whether you know beer, wine, Maker's Mark you know some famous brands. So my career has always been around famous brands and lots of retail. So when I looked at what I could do seven years ago when I started this practice, I thought about it and said I can really understand consumer brands. I really understand branding. I really understand intellectual property but it's a new world and we need to be able to do it online. And I dove into e-commerce understanding how Amazon works, how eBay works, how Jet works, of course, some of those came later, how Walmart.com as a marketplace work … Walmart used to be my customer at Sherwin-Williams and now here at Walmart.com it's a completely different animal and I dove into that. My practice has always been heavily mergers and acquisitions so about 50% of our practice is the mergers and acquisitions of businesses. And seven years later that has become a huge footprint of Amazon sellers, online sellers, e-commerce businesses that are seeking to flip. Entrepreneurs who have created … you know they have created great brands but in order to take them, to exploit them to the next level they need a lot more bandwidth. And it's, therefore, their time to move out of that business. Having spent a lot of years buying and selling Mom & Pop tank stores for Sherwin-Williams and Mom & Pop paint brands and Sundry brands it's no different, it's just now we're doing it through e-commerce instead of bricks and mortar. Joe: Okay. So about 50% of your business is the M & A side, the other side is what; working with people on intellectual property, branding, things of that nature? Rochelle: We're like their outsourced general counsel. It can be everything from intellectual property and branding to possibly contracts, employee issues, independent contractor issues, tax issues- Joe: Okay. Rochelle: Really almost anything they need. Leases, fire agreements, everything you might imagine a general counsel doing. Joe: I got you. So for folks listening, the reason I have Rochelle on the line today is because a lot of you have asked during the buy or sell process if Quiet Light can recommend an attorney. We have several that we work with; Shawn Hussain at the Ecom Law Group is terrific. We work with him often and Rochelle knows him and came across Rochelle and we were talking about the transfer process of an Amazon business. And I know now that you've worked with all of the website business broker firms that are at a high level like Quiet Light and you've been on both sides of the transaction. Rochelle: Right. Joe: Do you prefer or do you most often work with the buyer of a business, representing the buyer in contract negotiations or do you find yourself on the seller's side more often? Rochelle: It's really about equal and we don't really have a preference. We're perfectly prepared to work with both buyers and sellers. Buyers and sellers have different needs and one of the things that I think we're pretty good at and just so you know we're a firm of three full time lawyers. We are about to affiliate with a bigger national firm who also does quite a bit in e-commerce and emerging business and we can … I'm not prepared to tell you who and the details of that but that's coming down the pike so we'll have a lot more bandwidth. But what's important about us as we understand the difference between what a buyer needs, what a seller needs, financing it; if both you're a buyer and a seller how it's being financed matters, and understanding how this Amazon accounts transfer. Sometimes transferring the account actually isn't in your best interest or the buyer, sometimes it's the only solution for the buyer and- Joe: Let's talk about that- Rochelle: You have to assess that. Joe: You know that the listener's ears just perked up because we're talking about the transfer of an Amazon account. Rochelle: Yeah. Joe: You and I both know as does everyone who has an Amazon account that the Terms of Service says that the Amazon account is not transferrable and that- Rochelle: Generally. Joe: Right there's a bracket in there that says generally. To me logically it never made sense that you could build an amazing brand on Amazon and never be able to sell that. And I've had experience direct with Amazon and they've proven that they do in fact allow the transfer of accounts but- Rochelle: Of course. Joe: Tell us, tell the audience, tell me how have you seen an Amazon account most often transferred with the different transactions that you've done with the top websites and business brokerage firms. Rochelle: Sure you know a lot of times it's very much behind the scenes. If you are actually selling the ownership interest in the business you're not really transferring the Amazon account. Although Amazon may disagree with that but you're really not transferring the Amazon account, you're transferring the ownership interest in your business. And the only thing you're doing with the Amazon account is actually maybe changing an EIN if … depending on what you're buying and if you're getting the EIN of the new business and probably changing where you want the banking to go. I've even had situations where we haven't had to change the banking at all. If you're buying the assets however and you're leaving the ownership interest of the business behind by getting all of the assets of the business you're going to need to go in and possibly change the name of the owner of the account, change the … certainly, the EIN or the Employer ID Number, change the bank account number, and there may be some other things you're going to change as well. But there are some things that we recommend sellers do and frankly, it's better for buyers to help ease the pain of that process. First of all, we've never had Amazon stand in the way. As a matter of fact, if you text Amazon they'll even tell you how to go on and do it. So as much as they say it's generally not transferrable they actually don't get in the way as long as what you're doing is not disruptive. So where will they get in the way? If the IP address of the person making the change is different than the IP address of the person who has been running the account Amazon is going to have a big flag for fraud and they will get in the way and they may shut down the account. What they usually will do is let the sales continue. However, you can't access your account until somebody verifies that it was an intentional change. And they use to give you a couple of weeks to do that verification although my clients are typically through that verification process within a couple of hours. It may take Amazon a few hours to flag you but watch for the flag it's usually going to come to the seller. One of the great ways to avoid any of those issues, if you're using a VPN to access your account in the first place then you transfer the account with the VPN it has all locked in. You're not changing the IP address and that way when you do this transition there is no issue of the buyer or the seller plugging in the information as long as they're all going through the same VPN. Similarly, let the seller make the changes. Generally, the seller makes the changes. If it's a big enough account Amazon may flag it for fraud anyway but within a couple of hours the seller will get that email or will get contact from his or her account rep and that pain will be immediately fixed. We do it all the time and we haven't had an issue. Joe: So do you end up having to have a contact yourself with Amazon if there's an issue or is it just something that the seller contacts them and it's resolved eventually? Rochelle: So my rule of thumb, leave your lawyers out of Amazon at all times. We may be in the background helping draft the e-mails, helping respond to the emails, they always come from our client who has the most contact with their Amazon rep. Joe: That's the sellers. Rochelle: We want- Joe: That's the owner of the seller account. Rochelle: Exactly. We want the least amount of disruption in the communications. Amazon really doesn't need to hear from your lawyers. You just need to work directly with Amazon and frankly, it's a fraud detection problem. Amazon doesn't want to be caught where somebody somehow hacked into your system changed your accounts and you later come back and accuse Amazon of having changed your accounts or having diverted your money. So you can't blame Amazon for what they're doing. You just have to be able to work with them and be prepared for maybe a day or two of disruption. But typically we haven't seen it disrupt sales. Joe: Okay. Rochelle: We've seen product takedowns disrupt sales but we have not seen that transfer of the account disrupt sales. Joe: Excellent. Okay. Well let's take a few things, we talked about you're seeing the most method text and then we talked about the VPN and then you talked about … well, I want to talk about different Amazon countries so- Rochelle: Okay. Joe: What I've seen in the transfer process is the same. You know we wrote the 10 steps to transfer an Amazon account in 2016 I think and the process that we see is actual phone calls to seller central saying “Hey look I'm transferring the business, one of the assets of my business to the Amazon Seller Account. How do I transfer control to the new owner?” and they do the same thing you just talked about in Texas- Rochelle: Right. Joe: They give you written instructions and they'd sent it via email. Rochelle: Exactly. Joe: Our clients tell us that sometimes they get lucky; in the 1st call it works and sometimes it takes 10 calls. Rochelle: Right. Joe: At 1st hold on you can't do that and then on 10th oh yeah exactly I know what you're talking about, they do it. I've had some chats with Amazon chats do the same thing but you said text. Now do you mean email, do you mean the chats, what do you mean by text? Rochelle: I mean the chats. Joe: You mean the chats, okay. Rochelle: And it's usually the Seller Central chat system and we even have videos and screenshots of the chats that some of our clients have had. Joe: Okay. Rochelle: Remember with Amazon Seller Central you are dealing with … I'll describe this way my husband describes pizza. It's only as good as the 16 year old making it; when you order a pizza from a pizza parlor the quality control is a little bit lax. Well with Amazon it's not a quality control problem but the experience of a customer service rep is only what that person has had as experience. And depending on how specific you are, on how clear you are on what you're trying to ask them will depend on how good they are at getting it to the Amazon separate instructions and pulling back and telling you what to do. The more experienced reps are very good at telling you exactly how to go into Seller Central and make the changes. Joe: I like that. I wonder if on the chats that the more experienced reps answer the chats versus the phone calls. DO you know if there's any data behind that or is that just an assumption? Rochelle: No, I have no idea. Joe: Okay. Rochelle: I have not seen that and I really don't know and remember the chats are being answered by people all over the world. Joe: Okay same as phone call side too. Rochelle: Exactly. Joe: Okay, good. So just to back up a little bit of what you are saying I've had many many Amazon … Quiet Light Brokerage has many Amazon transactions transfer just that very same way. I personally have a situation for folks listening who or had an Amazon account that had a gold status, I don't know if that exists anymore but it was called a gold status and that meant that. It was old enough and large enough where they had an Amazon representative assigned to their account. So they had somebody they could always reach out to and during that process, they reached out to that person and said “Hey look transfer selling the business one of the assets of the business is my account how do we take care of this?” And that individual went to Amazon legal and said hey look this is what we're doing and Amazon Legal provided a form- Rochelle: Right. Joe: And all they wanted to know was the name of the buyer. And it's always been a theory that Amazon wants to make sure that those that have been banned are permanently banned so they wanted to know the name of the buyer so to do that search to see if they've been banned. That's all they did was check the name of the buyer and the transfer went through with no problem at all. So just backing up what you said there. The VPN, I had Norman Farrar on the podcast, Norm is an expert in SOP's and marketing Amazon. He guested on many many podcasts. Norm recommended the same thing and for those that are listening that do a lot of traveling to different events and whatnot, you're all at mastermind groups and you're getting advice if everyone is using the local VPN and there's a hundred people that get it sitting in listen to an expert and they get a great idea they'll all log on to their Amazon account using that IP address in the local wireless, local hotel, or whatever it might be- Rochelle: Right. Joe: The Amazon bots are gonna go crazy and you're all going to get shut down. Rochelle: Exactly. Joe: So Norm does that. Norm recommends VPNs. Rob Green who does the same thing, high level seller, a lot of podcasts, a lot of speaking all that events. He's got three or four different seller accounts, different VPN for each one so he goes even to a further level. Rochelle: All of my biggest clients are using VPNs. It is the smoothest, simplest way … as you said it's not just a matter of selling your business and having the VPN set up, it's actually an operational benefit. Because what it also means as you get bigger it's not just one person who needs to get into that account. You may have a team of people who have to go in and do different things at different times. They could be all over the world. But everybody coming in through the same VPN there's no confusion to Amazon bot. And frankly, it's a lot more secure. Joe: I agree. And it's you $10, $15 a month. Rochelle: Right. Joe: You should be doing- Rochelle: Absolutely. Joe: Okay. Let's talk countries, you haven't talked about countries yet. Rochelle: Right. Joe: You haven't said Amazon.com eu whatever it might be. Rochelle: Right. Joe: Are you finding the same transfer process to be successful for Amazon.com, UK, Germany, France, Italy, etcetera or are you doing something a little different depending upon the country? Rochelle: So generally we are using the same transfer process. Now one thing that I have to pull out when you are dealing with other countries you may have a V-A-T or VAT or Ad Valorem tax issue and generally that is not transferable. So you are going to need … the new company is going to need to set up their own tax ID in those countries. And there may be a change that has to be made and it may lag a little bit. Typically we use the same process. Most of our clients are driving their business through Amazon.com in the United States. It's a much smaller amount of traffic and a much smaller amount of sales going through the other countries. Although it's starting to pick up, it's starting to get a lot bigger. But we haven't focused as much on those international accounts but we haven't any trouble transferring them either. We just use the same process. There's been no disruption except for making sure that we have the Ad Valorem tax information necessary for those businesses. Joe: Got you. Rochelle: And it's been pretty seamless. Joe: Got you. Okay, we've experienced the same thing. In regards to the value added taxes for people listening we did a podcast with Alex Lyon- Rochelle: Excellent. Joe: From AVASK Tax Advisors three weeks ago depending from when this is launched is it. Rochelle: Right. Joe: Let's put it this way, it launched 1st of June or so. Great detail on how to set it up, what the pitfalls are in trying to do it on your own and the cost associated with it. And we also addressed the transfer of a seller account when to set that up and what comes first. Rochelle: Right. Joe: And she sort of detangled everything and it's not all that complicated. Rochelle: Perfect. Joe: Have you had a situation where the seller wanted to keep their seller account but transfer the brand out to a new owner and if yes tell us about it, please? Rochelle: We have. Actually, we've had it both ways where the seller wanted to keep their account because maybe their seller account had multiple brands, multiple A Sense and they were only selling one set of their product lines, maybe one brand. And if that happens it has to be up front at the beginning of the deal. Everyone needs to understand at the beginning of the deal whether or not the account is going to transfer. And the buyer needs to appreciate that they may not be getting the seller account and frankly sometimes it's not the worst thing. For instance if the buyer is already an active Amazon Seller, the buyer may be very happy to have its current Amazon account just take over the A sense and that is a very smooth transition and it's literally a relisting of the A sense moved over and then the seller account just delist those; takes them off their registry. Joe: The only challenge with it, you know it just piped it's … is the inventory. The inventory in the FBA account, Amazon will not transfer it from one FBA account to another. So you've got to time it so that new inventory is coming into that new seller account. You might leave the older account open, it still sells through that inventory but the new owner gets the revenue or the profit. Rochelle: And the seller, if they sell through the existing inventory, may do it for the benefit of the buyer. Joe: Yeah. Rochelle: So that the money still transfers and all of that inventory and we just do an accounting. Joe: Exactly. Rochelle: You're exactly right Joe that is what happens. Let me give you another scenario and I actually have this scenario right now. I have a seller I represent who has multiple seller accounts and he … they have multiple brands in their seller account and they're about to sell that business. That particular seller account is poorly rated. It has had lots of negatives for a whole variety of reasons part of it's because it's very old and part of it is because of mistakes that were made early on. But the nature of that particular business, the products they sell makes a lot of money but the seller account itself is not great. And the buyer is actually going through the process right now and determining if they would be better off just starting a brand new seller account and not taking that history because again, you're picking up the history of something that isn't really great. Joe: Yeah I guess it's better to have no history if the old history is very poor. But the challenge is let's back up and start with for those listening buyers or sellers if you have multiple brands in one seller account think about that transfer process. Someday you may wake up and say you know what I'm tired. I want to just unload something and put some money in the bank, set something aside so I can see something for the worth that I've done. The best way to do that is to have a clean transaction; you know separate LLC, clean documents, clean financials, and a separate seller account. Rochelle: Separate VPN. Joe: Separate VPN, exactly. You can have multiple seller accounts, I've talked to people that have six seven different seller accounts. You just have to get permission from Amazon and they will grant it again like Rochelle said at the beginning you just have to talk to the right person at Amazon. Rochelle: Or … and you have to do it right, you have to keep those businesses as separate businesses with separate seller accounts. They're not going to let one business have multiple seller accounts. Joe: Okay that's good information and it's hard for people when they bootstrap things and they test and certain things take off and they think this is great. Selling a business is more of a challenge and you got to have those things as separate as possible. I can tell you right now if you're going to spend a thousand dollars setting up a separate LLC and an extra thousand a year doing the accounting for it; you know $600 a year for separate Quick Books account you will get that money back tenfold in the sale [inaudible 00:28:26.9] your account so it's absolutely worth it to do it. So in terms of transferring the brand out of an account here's the drawbacks is that your buyer has to have another Amazon account with good or better ratings than the one that you have. Otherwise, your buyer pull is going to shrink and when your buyer pull shrinks the potential value for business shrinks as well. Rochelle: That's right. Joe: I've talked to many experts and I've named a few whom here that I have talked to about the transfer of a brand into a brand new Seller Account and they all think that's crazy. If it's got … if a good brand is in a good Seller Account you're transferring that to a brand new Seller Account they don't know anything about it- Rochelle: It makes no sense. Joe: And it's just risky. Rochelle: Exactly. Joe: I have a transaction that's going on now where the buyer had just purchased an Amazon Seller Account, it happens to be in a different country than the US and has got a great seller rating and they're going to buy another brand and move it into that same seller account into that same country versus taking over their Seller Account. Because the seller feels that there's a risk there that he doesn't want to take on. Rochelle: Right. Joe: So there's a lot of different ways to do these transactions and I hope that people can hear Rochelle through your communications that you're an attorney that actually thinks a little bit outside the box and understands that there's always two parties that are coming to the table and both have to be happy and satisfied in order to close a transaction. And you agree? Rochelle: I absolutely agree and you know Joe one of the things that I'd like to talk to people about is, remember it is the Seller Account you're selling and very often that's what's driving the value. But also keep in mind there may be other things you're selling such as techniques or technology that you've invented to support your Seller Account that helps to drive the business to that account. Or possibly even your own know how and they may need you as part of the transition team. There may be issues with a non-compete especially if you're running multiple brands and you're selling one channel or one brand. So as you're getting ready to sell your business you really have to think about what it is you're selling. It's the Seller Account, it's the brand, what else is being sold and can you really sell the things that the buyer wants? Joe: Yeah all of that should be done up front. What … the worst thing to do folks is to wake up and go okay I'm tired I want to sell my business so I'm going to call a broker. Rochelle: Right. Joe: That's the worst thing that … the best thing to do is to do what Rochelle is talking about and plan it in advance. Think … okay, maybe someday I'm going to sell my business let me just sort of get my ducks in a row. Rochelle: Right. Joe: Maybe I never will and maybe I'll pass it on to my kids but in the event, I get tired and want to move on I want to be prepared. And you want to think about all those things in advance and have those sort of all those ducks in a row. Rochelle: Right. Joe: In any contract negotiation let's touch on this briefly, both buyers and sellers you see both sides of the transactions all the time. What other stomach ache clauses that you see in an asset purchase agreement and how do you rectify them? Give me a couple of examples. Rochelle: So I can tell you the top two are always the non-compete and the indemnification provisions. Those are always numbers one and two sometimes you know in whichever order you want to put them in. But those are the two things that are almost always the most concerning. So the non-compete; the non-compete sounds easy. I agree I'm going to sell my business that sells paint brushes and I promise not to compete in paint brushes. Well, the buyer may be looking at it a little differently. The buyer may say, I don't want you to compete in anything that has anything to do with paint or anything that has anything to do with art or possibly anything that has anything to do with home or other kinds of activities. Very often they're going to look at Amazon categories and they're going to say I don't want you to compete in the category in which the product you sold is in. I've even had a buyer say I don't want you to be a … will compete in any category on Amazon or in any category in which I, the buyer may be in now or in the future. Joe: Definitely nuts because I would tell them they're nuts. Rochelle: Well, of course, we say as politely as we can. We don't like to queer deals but those are always fight issues. And my suggestion although I know people don't like to deal with difficult issues up front when you're in the dating period but my suggestion is that you understand the non-compete from the start of the transaction and the LOI point. Joe: Absolutely. We put all of that in our client interviews in depth, we ask about the non-compete, we talk to our sellers in detail about it because that is an important part of it from the seller's side. Look if this … the person selling the business is selling class fishing poles and they want to sell that business but still sell fishing poles it's too close and I'll tell them right up front as will any broker at Quiet Light Brokerage it's not going to work. Buyers are going to have a problem with that. I've never had a situation though I got to tell you, Rochelle, where a buyer has made an offer and said that we don't want you to sell anything on Amazon. That's simply too [inaudible 00:34:05.0]. I've never had anybody narrow it down to the category either because if you think about Home and Garden it's just too broad. It's usually been specific to the product and sometimes you know a little bit around that product. Let's say that if it's pick one that is not an actual- Rochelle: We can talk about your fishing poles. Joe: Sure. Rochelle: Some people will say nothing in marine so does that mean I can't sell a boat? A boat is really different than a fishing pole. Does that mean we can't sell a [inaudible 00:34:38.9]? Joe: Fishing tackle or things of that nature. I would say that it's … you can you can dance beyond that specific product a little bit but you can't go okay fishing pole and maybe lures but you can't go to boats, right? Rochelle: Right. And the reason I bring it up is I have had and I will tell you where it is the … a lot of the buyers today are private equity firms. Joe: True. Rochelle: And they're doing roll ups, and those private equity firms feel like they're buying the expertise of the person, not just the product and they are all over the idea that the expertise of the person could be used to teach or develop somebody else to sell against them. And as these private equity firms are rolling up multiple brands, multiple areas and their diversifying they have gotten very aggressive on this non-compete language. So we actually have seen … this may affect, I saw a language that was so broad that I said we absolutely can't have our client sign it because she couldn't even work at the makeup counter in Macy's. Because Macy's has an online site and even though she'd be working at the store it would be technically a violation. Joe: Right. Rochelle: And the private equity guy said to me well we didn't mean that. I said well that's your language says though. And he said I see where you're coming from. We were able to bring it back and this is really where the skills of your lawyer and your broker come in. Because the combination of the two helps bring people back to reality but it's important that conversation happens up front. Joe: I couldn't agree more. I find the vast majority of deals go off the rails at some point and the difference between a good lawyer and a good broker and a great lawyer and a great broker is pulling that back on the rails. I think the ability to have open communications and occasionally you know maybe I'm wrong I don't mean to throw you in a category here but- Rochelle: Yeah. Joe: You know I think attorneys when they respond to an asset purchase agreement and do edits and send it directly via email and make comments. It's vastly different than if they actually get- Rochelle: Get on a phone. Joe: When they get on a phone and speak to the other attorney, it's- Rochelle: Absolutely. Joe: You guys are brutal in emails and comments but then when you get on the phone you can generally work things out. Rochelle: So one of the challenges Joe is that really it's more than there was but today there are very few lawyers who have experience in this kind of business. Joe: Yup. Rochelle: And the typical document we're seeing has all sorts of stuff in it that makes no sense for an Amazon business. It's got loads of employee representations on employee benefit plans, it has loads of pages on environmental reps and warranties because they've taken the standard ABA form or the standard form they always use and they send it and say this is our asset purchase agreement. Joe: Right. Rochelle: And people like … and I'll use Shawn Hussain as a great example I do a lot of deals with them, people like us look at that and we just simply white out all those pages. So we start off with 75 pages when we're done it's about 35 and 40 of them were just garbage. Joe: Let's jump to the indemnification clause. Rochelle: Yes. Joe: Stomach ache clause number two, tell us about that one. Rochelle: So indemnification, for people who don't understand what it is, it's the clause that says if something goes wrong after the sale here's when and how I might be able not I the buyer may be entitled to get some money back. Or get some protection get some defense. So understood anything that happened in your business prior to the sale of the business is certainly the seller's responsibility. Anything that happens in the business after the sale of the business is the buyer's responsibility. But then there's the foggy world; what about product that was produced by the seller but not sold until the buyer owns that inventory? What about claims made on the websites, claims made in the marketing materials, claims of natural or organic that the buyer is relying on that the seller created, or what about simple … the business didn't do very well? You told me this business is a million dollar a month business but when the buyer takes it over the think tanks, the lightning deals go away. There's all sorts of speculation, the supplier doesn't supply quite as well to the buyer as the seller, and then the buyer comes in and says how do I get money back for this it's not what I expected. It's really really important that going into the deal you understand what the caps and limits are, what's the maximum amount of money a buyer can get back and under what circumstances, and is there a deductible. So for instance fraud; okay everyone understands that if the seller committed fraud, the buyer is going to expect their money back and probably all of their money. At the same time let's just assume that what really happened is that the seller had representation, some warranties and in it it said that the financial statements that are attached are true and correct and it turns out one line has one number transposed, it doesn't change the business, it doesn't change the quality of the business, it is an immaterial mistake, should the buyer get money back? Should they get all their money back for that? Should they get any money back for that? And so that's what I would call a typical representation warranty. Let's assume there was as a result of that mistake there really was a little bit of a material implication. Well, it will … let's say turned into a $10,000 problem, so what should the buyer get for that $10,000 problem? The language and the representation warranties are very important. What we recommend is that going into the deal there be a very clear conversation about the difference between fraud which might mean you get your purchase price back or maybe even the right to unwind the transaction versus an unintentional misrepresentation or mistake or something hiccups that you didn't anticipate. And we recommend that you have a clear cap, what's the maximum amount that the buyer can get back in the event of those issues and it might be we … generally, we see somewhere between ten on the low side and 30% on the high side as the range; that's today's market, as the range for those kinds of indemnifications. We might see a basket, so we might see something that says but if it's all under $25,000 or under $50,000 depending on the size of the deal the buyer gets nothing back. It's just a small de minimus issue whereas if it's hundreds of thousands of dollars of issue there might be a cap on it. There are fundamental representations such as title to the assets and if it turns out the seller sells you something it didn't have title to it, of course, the buyer is going to expect to be completely reimbursed for that. There are questions about whether or not you'll pay for the attorneys. These are provisions that both your broker understands and your attorneys understand. I strongly recommend that you line up an attorney at the beginning of the deal at the LOI for the base of this and you also line up an accountant who and as a seller. Joe: Well in advance. Rochelle: Well in advance. Joe: Yeah for sure. I hope you have one already for those listening that are sellers you know the four pillars that Mark and I talked about; the risk, the growth, the transferability, and the documentation are all critical. And you can't have that documentation in place without having a good a. bookkeeper and b. CPA to figure out what's going to be and left with after the sale. That's why I don't want you to wake up and go okay I'm ready to sell, list my business, please. Rochelle: Right. Joe: You want to think about those things in advance. I did a podcast with Dave Bryant from EcomCrew way back on importing from China and Dave talks about how he planned in advance selling his business and renegotiated the cost of goods sold on certain skews over a 12 month period. Saved himself about $40,000 and got that back in a multiple of three when he sold the business so all of these things are really important. As you talk about the indemnification, and as you talk about the non-compete for those listening you know I'm sure some of you nodded off right? Just like you did when I talked about the doing the valuation in cash versus accrual accounting. You can make so much more money in the sale of your business someday if you ever decide to sell or your heirs do when you take care of these things in advance when you plan when you have proper documentation. Now all of that will make these stomach ache clauses like the indemnification, not an issue. Proper documentation in advance of the sale you'll know that you did the right thing with your customers, you know that you don't have any cash and potential liabilities; you know that your financials are correct. That transposing of the number you know is it material, is it immaterial? Rochelle: Right. Joe: I've never had it happen pretty small if it's immaterial to material. I always go back to things can be worked out for the most part with math and logic. Emotion is the wild card, a good attorney a good a broker will help keep those emotions in check and on track to closing. And I think one of the reasons why I wanted you on the podcast Rochelle is because you seem to apply that math and logic into the conversations that we've had and you realize really really strongly that both buyers and sellers need to be happy. Rochelle: Right. Joe: Otherwise that transaction is not gonna close. There's no point. A one sided deal is never going to close folks. So if you have an attorney that is fighting tooth and nail for indemnification clause it's going to have the seller not cover anything, not cover any risk for the buyer, it's not going to close. It has to be comfortable for both parties. I always tell a story, I'm not going to tell the full story but it boils down to I will not take on a clients that is married to an attorney that has an attorney's her mother father sister brother that's going to do their contract negotiations because they fight like rabid dogs for things that you know there's one tenth of 1% of it happening but they fight like crazy to make sure that their client, their relative is fully protected. Because they're gonna have to have drinks to that relative at the next 4th of July barbecue. Deals fall apart for those clauses that we've talked about more the indemnification in my experience than the non-compete because again a good broker will handle that upfront and take care of it upfront and it should be both buyer and seller free LOI. Now one last thing on the LOI face in terms of when to hire the attorney Rochelle, our experience is the letter of intent is non-binding and fully contingent on the asset purchase agreements on due diligence and the further detail of asset purchase agreement so we don't recommend that clients hire an attorney for the language in the letter of intent. Because it says right in there is non-binding and contingent on those things. I think as long as some of these points or all of these points are worked out in advance you know particularly the non-compete that it's in there that 9.5 times out of 10 it's not an issue. Occasionally we have a little further negotiation in the asset purchase agreement, would you agree though that you should be hired once the LOI is signed and for the asset purchase agreement negotiations? Rochelle: Let me frame this a little differently. Joe: Okay. Rochelle: If you're getting ready to sell your business you should have a lawyer lined up who's taking a look at your business to make sure your ducks are in a row. Make sure if you have supply agreements that they are written signed enforceable supply agreements because if you're planning on selling those supply agreements then they have to have assignable supply agreements. So what I always suggest is just like you have your accountant in your back pocket you ought to have an attorney that you work with that's helped you think through your business. So I actually believe that you need to have a good business attorney lined up early on. Now having said that, 90% of my clients don't even though that is my advice and I wish we would be there. Joe is exactly right we are very often hired after LOI or right as the LOI is being prepared. And the only catch we have with LOI is if you have an LOI that doesn't address indemnification, it doesn't have a cap in it, when we go to do the asset purchase agreement the attorney on the other side will say the letter of intent didn't have a cap, the letter of intent said purchase price because it didn't say anything else. So when you're silent on those terms in the LOI you might have uphill battle. What you could do to protect yourself is to say a … indemnification with cap and basket to be agreed upon in the definitive document. So then you've at least left open the possibility that there's a negotiation to still be had on that topic whereas if you simply leave it silent the buyer is going to say that … I know I'd say when I'm a buyer I'm going to say no no no no no there were it said indemnification there were no caps, there were no baskets. Joe: Yeah, you're going to say different things as the attorney for the buyer than you are for the seller. Rochelle: Absolutely I'm very good at switching hat, as a matter of fact, I have represented clients who have been both buyers and sellers and they laugh about the fact that my tone changes and the way I look at the document changes. But we do what we have to do for our clients. Joe: Yeah for those listening look like many of you had … you don't want to contact a broker to talk about the valuation of the business or what it might be worth and I've had people tell me that because they don't want to feel like they're committing. You've got to do the same thing with the attorney, I think you should have a call with a broker a year two years in advance just to understand the valuation process and how to gauge what your discretionary earnings are on a monthly basis, quarterly basis, so you get an idea for the value instead of just listening to podcast, instead of just listening to people in mastermind groups and their experiences because the full story is never told. Instead of just looking at listings and oh that's a 2.5 multiple, that's a three multiple, it's a four multiple, you don't get the full story. You can't do it that way. You should have a conversation and have it directly applied to your business and your business only because every business has its own unique qualities. The same applies I think as you're saying Rochelle to having a conversation with an attorney in advance because if there's a problem with the way that you set up your LLC or the trademark or a design or anything like that- Rochelle: Right. Joe: You should have those things addressed in advance. Well worth it. Do you do any … do you have an hourly charge for that first call? Do you have a free consultation? Do you just talk about business what it … how does it work if somebody wants to reach out to you and have that conversation? Rochelle: Well we offer a 20 minute free consultation to all new clients. So we do it telephonically, most of our clients are not located. We're based in Tampa Florida which is a lovely place to live and do business. Most of our clients are all over the world. So we do it telephonically or through Skype or some other online method and we offer … we say 20 minutes and sometimes it goes a little longer depending on how in-depth we get. And in that call, we can then talk to you about what you need and how to price what you need. So sometimes what you need immediately is really just a few hours of our time and consultation and we'll bill it that way. Sometimes what you need is for us to dive in … as a firm we will do flat fees, we will do structured fees meaning that a certain price to cover the LOI and other price to cover due diligence a 3rd price to cover the asset purchase agreement and actually do it in phases. We will do capped fees, it all depends on the nature of your transaction and on how well we can get our arms around what you're asking us to do. So for instance, if we're doing it capped fee or a flat fee we're going to be very specific about the services you're getting from us and things that are outside those services might be in addition. If we're doing an hourly rate, of course, we'll have some sort of retainer up front and we will be specific about what's included in those services but you'll be billed by the hour. We try very hard to be transparent and easy for our clients to understand what they're being billed for and how they're being billed. Joe: Excellent. Rochelle listen we're going to wrap it up here, appreciate your time today. Can you tell those listening how to reach you, how do they find you either online or via phone call? Rochelle: Absolutely so by phone, our number is 813 999 0199 and I am in extension 115 if you press 0 when you call that number ask for Layla and she will set you up with me or one of our attorneys for an additional counsel. And by e-mail I am rochelle@walklawfirm.com And we have a policy of responding to people within 24 at the most 48 eight hours but we're usually pretty good about popping right back to you and getting something set up. Joe: Terrific we'll make sure that that phone number the e-mail address and the website address are in the show notes as well. Rochelle: Thank you. Joe: Rochelle any last thoughts for those listening that may be either buyers or sellers that you want to share? Rochelle: I just think in closing that when you think about buying or selling a business due diligence is the most important thing you can do. So even if you're an experienced Amazon seller whether you're a buyer or a seller you need to know who you're doing business with. Get some … if you're the buyer certainly understand the brand you're buying and understand what you're trying to accomplish by buying those brands, what services you need and frankly if you're the seller and you might be taking back seller paper which is a promissory note a seller promissory note you're going to want to know who the buyer is. Make sure you understand are they equipped to run a business like this and if they're not what kind of transition services do you need to provide them so they can hit the ground running. Know what kind of people there are, check them out. If you're dealing with people who are squirrelly get out of the deal in the … before you even sign the LOI. But if you're dealing with good people try and figure out how to make them successful because your success as a seller especially if you're taking back a seller's promissory note or consulting agreement your success is going to be very much related to their success. Joe: I love your approach you know if you're … if you ever decide to leave the law business give us a call. You may be a very very very successful advisor here at Quiet Light Brokerage. Rochelle: Thank you, Joe, I appreciate that and look forward to working with you again on some transactions. Joe: All right. Well, thanks for being a guest I appreciate it. We'll talk to you soon. Rochelle: Thanks, Joe. Links: www.walklawfirm.com Walk Law Firm, PA The Wells Fargo Building 100 S. Ashley Dr., Ste. 620 Tamp. FL 33602 Phone: 813-999-0199 Fax: 813-839-4896 LinkedIn
Collaboration and Authenticity in Nonprofit t Leadership Transcript of the Interview with Joe Homs Hugh Ballou: Greetings. Welcome to this edition of The Nonprofit Exchange. This guest today is a connection through the co-host, Russell David Dennis. And Russell, you met this guy a few years ago, right? Russell Dennis: A few years ago, yes. They were doing an interesting project that helped you expand your mind. Since that time, he has gone light years ahead of that. Don't let that youthful appearance that you're about to see fool you. This man is loaded. He's got lots of learning, brings lots of experience to the table. He's doing things to help people be more authentic, and he is all about collaboration. That's our language. I've got a bio here that's just to brag him up, but I'll let him tell you about himself. Go for it, young Joe Homes. Joe Homes: All right. So hi, everybody. My name is Joe. Last name is Homes. And, I'm now a partner at a company called Your Charisma Coach. And we teach people how to charismatically influence people to just kind of be a force for good in the world, to really connect and to share your own humanity with someone else and really to just again be a force for good in the world. We teach people through seminars, products, things like that. For myself, I came up a backwards way in industry, in jobs or whatever. My first job was at a venture capital firm, which most people don't start out with; they usually are successful entrepreneurs or something like that, and then they take all their money and invest there. I started there and was just the jack of all trades and worked my way up. I eventually became the entrepreneur in residence role. I got exposed to a lot of different companies, a lot of different industries, a lot of different things. Then I went to college, so I started doing that job when I was like 17. It was ridiculous. Then went to college, finished out that fund, and became a management consultant. Traveled around the world, did all kinds of stuff there. My job essentially ever since has been going into organizations, and make people act quickly, get in contact with them, know them, sometimes better than they know themselves, and help them fix problems and collaborate and do that kind of thing. I met some friends a few years ago, and we were at a seminar together. All of us are doing our own different things. These other two gentlemen are very successful in their own right. We all decided to come together and create something amazing. I just joined this company as a new partner. We are just so happy to basically connect the world because we see, at least I see the world going in a couple of different ways. One is where technology, software is eating the world. That was my old world. I have a degree in computer science. Software is doing amazing, cool technological things. The other way that the world I see is going is we are in a connection economy. We are in that place where you reach out on Facebook: Who is the best plumber in my neighborhood? You reach out to a connection that you met years ago, like I reached out to you Russell because I saw something go by on LinkedIn. I haven't spoken to him in a while; let me see how I can connect. I ended up being here on your podcast. This is great, of course, but it's just a wonderful thing where you can just go up and connect with people. We saw those two things happening, where technology and psychology are diverging. We wanted to bring them back together and give people a chance to connect with their fellow human beings and show people how to do that. Charisma is a skill. It's something you can learn. It's something you can always get better at. It's an interesting thing. I hope that suffices to say who I am and what I do. Russell: It does to a degree, but man, there is so much more there that is phenomenal. You talk about the word “charisma.” A lot of people think that charisma, they look at a figure that is out there, that everybody knows, somebody like a Les Brown or a Dave Austin or a Dan Car? That is full of energy, high profile, extroverted, but that's not who everybody is. When it comes to nonprofits or for-purpose businesses, that is what they really are, relationships are everything. I think we went through a period in our society of extreme narcissism, and now people are starting to understand that no matter what you do, relationships are at the center of that. A lot of people probably feel like they're in the dark. You either have all of this juice and charisma. You're either open or you're not. That is not necessarily the case because everybody's a little bit different. My first question is: Is there a natural tendency for people to step away from their authentic selves in order to try to make an impression on others? Joe: Absolutely. And you're correct that not everybody is Oprah. I would posit that you don't need to be. We already have Oprah. She is great at being Oprah. I personally am not Oprah. I don't want to be. My business partner is completely different from me. Russ, you're different. Hugh, you're different. We are all different. That's what makes us that much more valuable. There is definitely a natural tendency for people to step away from their own greatness. They look at those very charismatic people who are out there showing the world who they really are. The natural tendency for people to step away sadly happens to most of us in the Western world for various reasons, social circles telling us we're not good enough, the media giving us unrealistic expectations of who we should be or what life should be like. You've got to realize that most people are afraid to express who they are. That natural tendency is definitely there, but I look at people who eventually get to a point in their lives. It's usually someone who is a little older, and they realize basically no one else cares, so why should they? You look at someone who is old enough, experienced enough, and they just don't care anymore. They're truly who they are. They're themselves. They just go, “You know what? I'm just gonna be me.” Those people are the most interesting people to meet, to talk to, to work with because they're just being themselves. I'd say that yes, there is a natural tendency to step away from being their authentic selves, mostly because there is fear there. If there is, it's hard for you to be silent with another person, if it's hard for you to go out there and express yourself, if you're constantly having to say, “I'm going to fake it until I make it,” an authentic person doesn't have to fake it. They're going to say, “This is me.” Look to reducing that fear for yourself to help yourself there. Russell: I prefer “Act as if,” to “Fake it ‘til you make it” because you're not putting up a façade or trying to be something you're not. I think that throws people out of their greatness because really the further we move away from our authentic selves, the less greatness we have. You work with business leaders from Fortune 100 companies. You work with nonprofit leaders. You work with government entities, a little bit of everybody. People interact. It's all about relationships. How might the idea that people think they have to put up a certain impression, how could that hamper them in their role as a nonprofit leader or business leader or government leader? Joe: The important word there is “leader.” In business, in life, in government, in for-purpose businesses or nonprofits, however you want to call it, you're there to lead for a change. If you're going to step away from your greatness, that is going to hamper your ability to actually lead. An invisible magnet sit sin between people. It's called trust. We have huge sections of our brain that are dedicated, hard-wired to figure out congruency, trusting people. As human beings, we have to evolve over many thousands of years to learn: Is this person taking advantage? Is this person contributing to the group? We're very good at sensing any incongruence. When you have an incongruence, you don't trust that person. If you don't trust that person- Think about it. If you didn't trust someone, could you really be influenced by them? If someone is holding a gun to your head, you can't really trust them. They might influence you in that moment to get what they want done, right? But if the external threat is removed, you don't trust that person. You can't rely on their word. You can't rely on them to say what they're going to do. If I say, “I'm going to take this left turn, and I go right,” that erodes some trust. Sure, there are different things in life where you say you're going to do one thing and circumstances make you have to do another. That's fine. Again, if you're the kind of person who says, “You know what? I promised you this; this happened. Here is how I'm going to make it right,” an apology makes all the difference. We make mistakes. We all screw up somehow in our lives. It's the way we get back into trusting relationships with the people around us that really matters. If you are going to step away from being your authentic self, people will see an incongruence. They may not necessarily know what it is. They may not be able to put their finger on it, but they will say, “I don't know. I don't know about that person. I don't know if I can trust them.” So it will hamper your ability to be a leader in the world, to get the change that you're looking for in the world. If you're not going to be your authentic self, whomever that is- There are people out there who are, as far as I would be concerned, super weird. I'm not just gonna connect with that person. But they are totally authentic. And their audience is massive and exploding because the people who love them are there with them. The people who don't, mostly it's just like, “I don't care. I won't pay attention.” Being authentic creates trust. It creates relationship. If you step away from that, you're only hurting yourself and your cause. Russell: I think one of the important qualities that leaders in nonprofits recognize is this need to influence people. You have to influence people to serve on your board. You have to influence people to give to your cause. You have to influence people to use your services. Probably a lot like other businesses, this notion of influence makes people very uncomfortable. One of the troubles that I have seen leaders have in all types of organizations is this need to be a Superman or a Superwoman, where the buck stops here and they get it all done. How much of that have you run into? What are some of the problems you've seen that people have created for themselves as far as being able to build good collaborative connections that serve both parties? Joe: This is a multi-part question. In terms of people being a little bit worried about influencing and leadership, the right kind of leadership that you want is the kind where you go first, where you're the one out ahead, forging the path, doing the thing that you, creating the world that you want to see. If you're doing that the right way, people will follow you. The very definition of being a leader. If you are having to convince someone and cajole someone and force someone into a position, you're not really leading. You're forcing. And the idea of force versus influence is an important distinction. I could force lots of things to happen in my company, in my relationships, in my life. But force requires constant attention. It requires you to always be there forcing the issue. Eventually, force tends to backfire. The idea of physics: If you are pushing on something, whatever force you have, an action has an equal and opposite reaction. You want to be leading someone. You want to be pulling them along rather than pushing them along. That's first. That's what true influence and authenticity is about. You're saying, “Look, this is the world that I'm creating. Do you want to help me create it? Let's go! However you want to join is going to be up to you, of course.” The second part of: How do people go wrong? How do they get trapped in this? They will have several complexes. One is that savior complex of, “I'm the one who has to do this.” They feel that if they are not the one to do it, they somehow won't get credit. They won't feel good at the end of the day. But you look at massive organizations that tends to have to be a way—human beings, we set this up—is what business doesn't have one or two leaders at the top? Do they get all the work done in these massive organizations? Absolutely not. What they've done and their real contribution is systems, to delegate, to make this kind of thing happen. Stories that I hear where people do well by themselves in this is companies like Toyota. Massive corporations. They didn't use to be as massive as they are now ,but still pretty big. They're making cars for the American market. Long story short, any worker at Toyota could just stop the line. They had a little pull chain. You pull it like this, and this entire lane of cars, hundreds of cars in a row on the assembly line, just stops. Everyone rushes over and realizes there is a problem here that they have to fix. We have to fix it for good, not just fix it today. If someone collapses, that's obviously not good. But that is a system you have to put in place. Why did that person collapse? The idea of the five Why's comes out there. You're asking Why? five times in a row. You get to the root cause of the issue there. You can read about that kind of stuff. The other stories I remember of this guy I know is named Derek Sivers. He had a company called CD Baby for a long time. He sold it in an interesting way. He created a nonprofit that pays him while he is living. When he is gone, it is going to go toward music education. Very interesting guy. If you ever need to look him up, I believe it's Sivers.org. Really cool guy. What he did when he realized he was the bottleneck of his company is he did the same thing. He would get a question from one of his employees. He would stop and say we would create a system that solves this problem for the company. I never want to have to deal with this again. For the first few weeks, it was hell. I don't want to have to do this. He took the initiative. He led, and then he showed his team, “This is the way that I think. This is where the idea of culture comes in. Let me show you how I think about this kind of thing. Then you guys get to go and do this.” Eventually he said, “You guys come up with your own systems and your own things.” Eventually, he was able to exit the company because he had created this massive set of systems that let the company run and become its own organization and make its own way. Russell: And that is the work that SynerVision does. We teach people- Joe: Absolutely. Russell: How to implement systems that serve them and move them forward. Through creation of systems, co-creation of systems, everything comes together. In order to make an impression on people, good leaders need charisma. We talked about charisma. Marcus on Facebook asks, “What is your favorite book on charisma?” Joe: Ooh. Marcus, it's funny, is one of my partners. He is trolling me a bit. Let's see. Russell: He wants to make sure you are not sleeping in the board meeting. Joe: One of my favorite books on charisma is a book. I'm going to have to look up the name here. Give me a second. One of my favorite books is, there is a book called The Way of the Superior Man. I like this book because it's got a few really good insights in it. For me, I read this book about once a year just because I find it so interesting. Don't let the title scare you away if you're a woman. In fact, if you're a woman, you should read this because it'll help you understand the men in your life to a greater extent than I think a lot of self-help and development stuff might show you otherwise. We talked earlier about being authentic is one of the best ways of being charismatic. Without that authenticity, people aren't going to trust you. They're going to wonder are you for real? This book at least for me broke down what it's like to be a man in modern society, what you need to know, and helped me figure out. I remember there is a chapter in the book that says, Pretend your father is gone, that he's dead, that he has no more influence on you. What are you going to do now? I had to sit with that one for a while because my dad is one of my heroes. He is an important figure in my life. We also go about life in different ways. When I read that chapter, I remember going like, “You know, I'm going to choose this path for my life rather than another one.” It's an important book, I think, that people may not consider to be a leadership and influence book, but it helps you to discover yourself a bit more, especially as a man, but also again as a woman to understand yourself, too. We also have masculine and feminine parts of ourselves. Identities that we play into. Really good book. I would recommend that one to people. Hugh: Can I punctuate that, Russ? Joe, what generation are you in? Russell and I, we're both boomers, aren't we? Russell: Yep. We are crusty. We have been around for a long time. I plan to be around for a lot longer. Hugh: Crusty. So which generation are you in, Joe? Joe: I believe it's X. And maybe on the cusp of millennial. Hugh: Russell and I are champions of transformational leadership. You're anchored in your authenticity. You model, you practice what you preach. You model what you want to see. As a musical conductor, that comes back to me instantly. Your culture is what they see in you. Authenticity is a real key. When you talk about millennials, that is a key factor. It's a key factor, I think, more than any other generation. They don't want to put up with the BS they have seen us boomers create. We are on our way out of some corporate jobs and church jobs and nonprofit jobs. They come in with a whole different sense. There is a similar set of values. When you're looking at this community of collaborative thinking, how does this authenticity-? That is a really interesting book. I am hearing you talk about reading it again. I want to probe that authenticity as far as generations, how does that affect collaborations? As you read the book, tell me if you see different things every time you look at it. Joe: I'll answer the last question first. I see different things out of it every time I read it because I am a different person every time I read it. That is not the only book I read. My viewpoints change. My life changes. My circumstances change. I had a son a few years ago. When I- before having him and after having him, my life drastically changed in terms of the things I was doing, the businesses I had, and all kinds of stuff. But some of my risk tolerances changed for instance, like I used to go skydiving and motorcycle riding. You name an extreme or dangerous sport. I was there. Kite surfing. You name it. After I had my son, I said, “You know what? I'm going to hold off on that for a while.” I know there are people who would agree with that. I know there are people who would disagree. A bunch of the people I used to do things with were like, “What? Just because you have a kid, that doesn't change.” But honestly it changed for me. What's most important to me is going to be less important perhaps to someone else. To me, some of my most important values are family and freedom. I like to spend time with my family. I like to be the man around the house that's fixing my house. I fix stuff around here all the time. My life changed, and so in reading that book again, I got the one chapter I talked about, imagine your father is dead, I imagined myself as being dead and what I would want my son to know. I wrote some stuff down in a letter. It's in a fireproof safe or whatever. If I was ever gone prematurely, my son could get hopefully some of my wisdom passed along to him in some way. The book doesn't change, but I change enough that I notice different things in the book. It makes all the difference. That's why I read it about once a year. In terms of your other question, authenticity between generations, I don't think people are less authentic or more authentic between these generations. I think that technology has made certain things a bit more magnified than they were in the past. You look at stuff like: We're on Facebook live right now. Potentially thousands of people could be seeing this at the moment, whereas right now we are talking as this is a personal conversation between us three. These kinds of things have changed the social dynamics of where we're at generationally but also just as human beings. Normally, this would just be between us, and we'd get a good impression of each other. Maybe we'd learn some things, and we'd go off to our separate activities. Now this is recorded. People can watch this over and over. Hundreds of people are watching this outside of just us three. We have a different take. Human beings, when we know we are being recorded, when we know someone else can listen to this later, we edit our speech. We do these things commonly. I have gotten to the point in my life where it's like this is me. This is who I am. I'm going to express myself in the best way that I know how. Like I said, I'm not Oprah, nor do I want to be. I'm Joe. Nice to meet you. If one of my business partners Marcus was on here, he'd be joking with you guys a bit more. He's the more funny guy of our little group, and we love him for it. Marcus exudes this charisma in his own special way. Another partner of mine, Johnny, he's the hard-charging, intense guy that if you ever want something done, ask Johnny because he will just get it done until it's done. I am more the reserved type, but it works for all of us. If there is much of a generational gap, it's just because people have different values. They have different ideas of what they think life should be like, how they should conduct themselves. If you just look at the other person and look at what they care about the most, what they value, you'll find you have a lot more in connection than you think. You guys have probably seen the movie The Breakfast Club for instance. There is the stoner kid. There is the outcast. There is the jock. There is the whatever. Ostensibly, we all went through that kind of high school experience. Many of these groups don't really come together. All of these kids had detention on the weekend. It sucks. They're there, but they're all different. What they come to realize of course is that they're all very similar. They all have the same struggles in life. They all have hard things going on. They all realize they can support each other. It's a great movie, a great metaphor for how I think different social groups and generations can come together and realize we are all human beings. We are all here to live our lives. We are all here to connect with people. We are all here to collaborate, communicate, do all those good things. When you realize that powerful things can happen. Russell: These are the types of tools I use working with people. These are the tools we use with SynerVision: try to look at how all these different pieces and parts put together. The strength comes in the variety and diversity across different areas of knowledge, different skills, different personalities. The more you have, to find that common ground is phenomenal. This is what collaboration is about. I think a lot of people are afraid to look at collaborating because they feel that there is a piece of something that they're going to lose out on if they collaborate with other people. It's a scarcity mindset. Have you found that in business in general? I know we find it in nonprofits. What are some of the things you do to help people get comfortable with that and back up and understand how the differences that people have aren't as scary as they think they are? Joe: Yeah. You're totally right. The differences that people have are actually their strengths. An example I use when I talk about collaboration is when I was running a team in Atlanta, great city if you're ever there or want to go there, it's awesome—I was working for this really large corporation. Being a management consultant, I am staying in a hotel all week and living out of a suitcase. The hotel gives these little soaps and shampoos. I don't have a lot of hair. It's not long. I only need very little. Russell: It could be worse. Joe: It could be worse, right? But hey, I don't need a lot of shampoo. I definitely don't need all the lotion they give you. It's hot and humid down there. I'm good. I would often just look at these and leave them in the room or throw them away. One day, I went, “There's got to be something I can do with these.” I set up a box. I had about 40 employees working for me at the time. I set up this box in our team room. 40 people in their hotel rooms at the end of the week would throw their extra shampoos and conditioners and the hotel stuff that the hotel was going to throw away anyway because they can't really use this stuff. They put this all in a box. I went and took this box once it was full, it was just 100 pounds of stuff, I took it down to a local shelter and said, “Hey, this is for you guys.” They're like, “Whoa, what's this?” They got very excited because people need this hygiene stuff. “It's here for you. Take it.” That could have been the end of it. But I decided to- At Your Charisma Coach, we say, “Find your edge.” I went, “You know, this isn't enough. I gotta go one step further.” What I did was I said, “I am going to come next time with another box of this. Would you mind when I do this if I called up a news producer here in Atlanta, and we'll do a little news segment on your work here? I don't want this to be about me. I want this to be about you. But that will use what I'm doing as the in because it's news-worthy to do this.” They said, “Yeah, absolutely.” In the next month or so, I got enough of these bottles again and called up a news producer and said, “I am going to go down to this thing. I am donating 100 pounds of shampoo, conditioner, all that stuff. I think it would be interesting if you talked to these people, interviewed them, talked about why this was important to them, how it is going to help, and everything else.” The news producer said, “Absolutely, this is great. I'll meet you down there.” I met them down there, and I had the nonprofit do a quick interview about why this helps, what we were doing. I got on screen for a few minutes, not even a few minutes, like 30 seconds, and said, “Hi, I am a local guy doing this. I think it's important to support our local communities.” That kind of stuff. Through that news story, a ton of the hotels around have consultants there. They all started their own programs to be able to do this. It got to the point where this particular organization couldn't handle any more of the donations, so they started sending them out to other organizations in the city. The word got back to my corporate headquarters. They started doing this in every other city that they were in. This consulting company was all around the world. Around the world, people unlocked this potential. What's the key takeaway there? I looked at this as abundant thinking. I have this resource. I'm not using it. Maybe someone else can. The news media needs a story for the day. Great. I helped them create a story. That story helped influence a ton of people to say, “I could do that, too,” and they started doing that. Everyone in the community got to raise up. I couldn't have done that on my own. I couldn't be buying thousands of dollars of shampoo and donating it. Sure, I could do that. That would be where it stops. Instead of forcing myself to do that or forcing my employees to do that, I said, “Guys, I'm going to do this first If you want to join me, great. Then I will have other people get involved with their unique skills, gifts, abilities, and talents. We are all going to collaborate together.” When I look at companies and they say, “I don't know how to communicate or collaborate. They'll take my clients or my customers away,” I'd say, “Look to find someone who you can partner with. Look for someone to collaborate with who can do something you can't.” You guys together, one's chocolate, one's peanut butter, together, you're even better. Why not look at life that way where it's a positive sum game? The more that you put in and collaborate with people, the more you will get out than you would individually. Russell: Abundant thinking. That sounds like a quality that leaders should have, especially nonprofit leaders. How do you help them tap into the notion of abundant thinking? Put that into practice. Joe: Oh boy. That would take perhaps a little while longer than we have here, but I'll give the short answer. When you are collaborating with people, one of the best ways to do that is to listen to them, to find out what they actually need and want. When I want to collaborate more with people, individuals or businesses, for instance, a friend of mine was looking for a job. She has a decent one already. She just didn't like where she's at. She feels she is stagnating there; she wants to grow. I took it upon myself without her asking- A couple friends of mine are looking to hire in the same kind of role she is in. I sent them a message that said, “Hey, you need to reach out to this person because this person is great. They can do really good work. They are kind of looking for a move, but they don't know where to go yet. Can you reach out to them for 10 minutes and talk to them?” Fast forward a week later. I get this call, like, “I just got this offer from apparently a friend of yours? What did you do?” We say this at Your Charisma Coach as well. We try to put rabbits in hats. The other phrase is we put treasure in a chest. She didn't ask me to do this. I didn't have to do this. I look for opportunities to say, “How can I serve this person? How can I make it so that they'll get to shine in their own lives?” In a five-minute, ten-minute call from me to a couple of friends of mine, I got her a great job. She loves where she's at. My friends as well who had the company are ecstatic because they have someone who wasn't really even on the market. They didn't even know they were looking for her. They got a great fit. That was my gift essentially to all of them. I looked at it as like, Could I have gotten a fee for doing that? I recruited her. Sure. But the best way to collaborate with people is that you just give to them. You don't have a need to collaborate with them. I don't really want to collaborate with people. I'm not going to say, “Will you please collaborate with me?” It's more like I am out there doing cool stuff in the world. I want to make it so people are knocking down my door to collaborate with me. Do something interesting. Going back, be authentic. Be the organization, the person that you are in life, in the world, and people then kind of show up. At Your Charisma Coach, we have people emailing us, “How can I work for you? How can we intern for you? I will do unpaid work. I don't care what it is. I just want to be around you and absorb whatever it is that you have and maybe some of it will rub off on me.” We don't actually go out and look for most of these things. People show up because we are being who we are. That is so interesting to people. It's so, for lack of a better word, charismatic to people that they will want to collaborate with you. If you are having trouble collaborating with someone, look to yourself, be someone who you would want to collaborate with, and you'll find people starting to come out of the woodwork. Then all it takes is a dose of creativity. The example I gave before is, I had something that was going to waste. I guarantee you there is waste in your organization in some other way that it's something you're doing, or something like this, a conversation between high-level business people that would normally just be between them, record it, send it to an audience. Some people will like that. Other people won't. That's okay. But you will find people who resonate with those kinds of things you're doing. They will want to contribute and collaborate. There will always be people who want to compete and tear things down. I don't really pay attention to them. I look for the people who want to create more in life, to make something better in the world. I go, “You're doing that. Great.” There is a charity in the UK. It's called The Loneliness Project. We are looking to do some collaborations with them as well. We're not going to be like, “Please collaborate with us.” We are going, “Hey, we're helping people be more charismatic. Your message and our message are closely aligned. If you'd like to work with us, great. If you wouldn't, great. We will still support you anyway. We hope to send some people and some attention your way.” We're there to give. We're there to give all the time. We are not looking to force anyone into some interaction with us, but just to have fun. Hugh: Joe, speaking of drilling down on nonprofits, charities, for-purpose organizations, there is not really experience and knowledge on collaboration. We're duplicating efforts with multiple charities in the community. They are competing for donor dollars. What do you think is the bridge to help similar charities that are even local or around the country, what is the barrier that charities, leaders in nonprofits need to consider to break through to- Russell and I see collaboration as opening up a vault to a lot more success. What is the biggest barrier, and what is the antidote to that? Joe: The biggest barrier to collaboration? I'd say the biggest barrier to collaboration is value misalignment. If you value one thing and I value another, then it's gonna be difficult for us to collaborate. I would say don't partner with those kinds of people. Don't collaborate with them. You just won't have a good time. You could make it work. You could force things to happen. But again, that is force versus influence. But if you both want the same thing, if you both have the same kind of mission, then it's easy for you to say, “You know what? There is more than enough donor dollars to go around.” Believe me, there is. There is so much cash available in the world; it's just finding it and creating it in some cases that becomes the interesting challenge. Hugh: Sometimes the people who have the closest alignment, the most similar values, the most overlapping missions, see each other as competitors. Besides if they are aligned, what are some more barriers to thinking collaboratively from a leadership standpoint? Joe: That scarcity mindset of there is so many donor dollars to go around. That is just a belief. It's not true. I haven't seen that to be true in my experience. That is one of the biggest things that stops people from collaborating. They think that they do that. I think also another example is that many people don't have examples of how to do this. They don't know. It just doesn't occur to them that it might be possible to collaborate with another organization that maybe has a very similar mission or a very different one. They just don't do it. It's like saying, “Well, I didn't consider that I could use my car to drive to the store, but I drive to work every day.” It's the same stuff. You're just going to a different kind of destination. With organizations, often I tell them, “You can look outside of the nonprofit sphere for people you can connect with and collaborate with if that is where you want to start.” One way that is really great is something that I've done in the past with nonprofits and with larger corporations. This is a model that comes from a guy named Brendan Brouchard. What he does is similar to my hotel story where if you're some kind of a business or creator or someone that has a product or service that a nonprofit would be interested in, or if you're the nonprofit and you're interested in someone's services- Let's say Tony Robbins has some special seminar that you'd love all your people to attend, but Tony Robbins' stuff is high-end, it's expensive, so maybe you don't have the money to pay for that out of donations, or maybe your donors wouldn't like that. So what can you do? Add a third party. Let's say the Red Cross. Or scale this up and down to the size of your organization and who you can access. Let's use some well-known examples. If you're the Red Cross and you say, “I want to send 10,000 people to a Tony Robbins event,” great. How do we pay for this? How do we get this done? Tony needs to make some money to put this on at the very least. We need to get people excited and invited. But let's add in a third party. Let's call up Coca-Cola who really cares about people being able to buy Coca-Cola around the world. They have millions and millions of advertising budget for instance. Bigger corporations like Coca-Cola literally have entire teams whose job it is to help put funds in the right place to nonprofits. If you don't know that, go research it. It's pretty interesting. What a nonprofit or company who wants to offer this service can do is go out to the nonprofit or vice versa and say, “Can we use your name?” If Tony Robbins said, “Can I use your name, Red Cross, to go to Coca-Cola and say, ‘I want to put on this cool event.'” I did this for a local charity in LA. We created an event where we got a bunch of local businesses around LA to bring a lot of their employees and to donate some money to an event. This event was teaching charisma, soft skills, those kinds of things to the particular people who were 18-25-year-olds. They are called the transition age youth. They have aged out of foster care. They are technically adults. After 18 and up until 25 is this age range. They are in a very vulnerable age when you come from a disadvantaged home, life. These people are looking for jobs. They are looking to get out there in the work force. They are good kids. They want to do things right. What we did is we said, “We are going to bring these kids. They are going to come for free.” These businesses around LA, we said, “Please either sponsor the event, and we will put in a small advertisement in a flyer, or pay for a ticket and have your people come. It's still useful, great information for your employees, for your leaders to get in on.” Fast forward to the event. We had what amounted to a training event. At this training event, everyone got to learn greater skills on how to communicate better, how to collaborate better, how to connect with their fellow human beings. These kids got to learn a ton of stuff they wouldn't have learned otherwise. These companies got access to young, fresh employees who are great people. They wouldn't have known about each other otherwise. We put them together in a mentoring relationship during this weekend. The more seasoned employees got to sponsor and mentor a younger kid. Everyone really loved it. It's now an event that runs every year and has continually grown. We took this spirit of collaboration. We said, “This nonprofit can ask for donors. That's great. This company can try to advertise to these people. That's great. I as a businessperson can try and get into these groups and maybe partner with them. That's great. But all three of us together can do so much more.” Once this started going, they now understand this model, so they have taken it out. I know one of their executives left the organization and is now at another one, doing the same thing in another city. These ideas, these means start to spread out into the world. If you are looking to collaborate, look beyond just your local experience. Go out into the world and say, “Who has what I want?” Your problem I guarantee you is someone else's solution. You'll be able to find someone who wants to contribute to you in a meaningful way. Hugh: Russell, this last seven minutes has been a capsule of possibilities. I don't know what you're thinking, but I'm thinking we need to get on the phone with Joe Homes and see if there is a collaboration with SynerVision that we can pop out of a bubble and put some of these things to work. Joe: I'll show you how. Hugh: Joe, I have to be the hard nose guy here. We have come up to the end of our interview. We try to keep these under an hour. It is fascinating. We could talk to you all day. Russell, thank you for inviting him here. I think we are going to try to get you to write for Nonprofit Performance Magazine. I think there's a story brewin'. What do you think, Russell? Russell: Oh yes. He's done a lot with that. We talked at some length a little while back when I bounced the idea to him about the podcast. We talked about a number of different projects and the power of collaboration. The time has come for that. It's really time for all of us to point our thinking in that direction. The business networks I'm in do that. The organizations I've been working with do the same thing. Hugh: For those listening, go to info@synervisionleadership.org. Send us an email if you are interested in having a conversation. Our new website will be up soon. SynerVisionLeadership.org is up now just as a placeholder. But we have a lot more in our community for community builders. Before Russell closes us out, Joe, what would you like to leave our listeners with? Joe: Given that we are talking about community and leadership, a lot of leaders and organizations think they have to be really impressive to make an impression out there, to get donor dollars. I would say if you are going down the impression route, you're going to run into most likely the fact that it's going to be inauthentic in some way. People are going to lose the congruence that you have. Instead, look to express yourself in the world. Don't worry about what other people think. Don't worry about how you're going to be judged. Just be you. Be that person in the senior living home that is like, “I don't even care. I am just going to show you what I've got. This is me. Take it or leave it.” Think about all the most interesting people you know from celebrities like Oprah to even just the guy next door that you think is fascinating. Every one of them does not care what you think about them. They're just out there expressing themselves. I would say if you are going to be a leader in your organization, go first. Express yourself. Be who you really are. I know that is the best worst advice ever. Just be yourself, right? The reason people say that is because you are enough. You are everything you need. Express that in the world, and look to be the most relaxed, easy person in any conversation you're in. You will be more charismatic than you think. If I can leave you guys with that, that is what I would leave you with. Russell: Great stuff. It's been an absolute pleasure to talk with you. I am looking forward to talking with you some more because I have some tools we want to provide to these nonprofit leaders out here. Thank you out there, all of you, who got out of bed this morning with the thought of how you can do something to make other people's lives better. What and why are you doing your job today? How is none of your business. Trust. Trust and move forward. Pick up the tools, and you'll have it. This is Russell Dennis signing off. Joe Homes, thanking him again. My good-looking colleague, Hugh Ballou. There was a point in time where he was jealous of my naturally curly hair. Once he got over that, he decided he'd like to have me hang out with him and be here with all of you great folks every week. Keep doing what you're doing. The world is becoming a better place every day, every day that you're out here, swinging and going out here and doing a service and being you. This is Russ Dennis signing off. We will see you right here next week. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
I had a buyer recently tell me: “I don't trust SEO traffic. You can't change it. I only trust paid acquisition channels.” Times certainly have changed since just a few years ago. A lot of buyers look at natural SEO traffic as untrustworthy ever since the major index updates of Panda, penguin, and hummingbird. Others see SEO as a much more difficult (and possibly more expensive) avenue towards traffic. And some buyers think that the relevance of SEO will be discounted with new voice-enabled searches and paid advertising pushing natural search rankings down Google's SERPs. In this conversation with Corey Northcutt, we discuss the future of SEO, whether there is a good opportunity for buyers to exploit SEO opportunities, and what he would look out for on the SEO front before buying any online business. Episode Highlights Can we trust SEO long-term? Where is it going, and can you build a business on SEO traffic? What key SEO factors should you look at before buying an online business Google's primary goal, and why it is good for business owners Why SEO traffic will always beat paid traffic Why the major Google updates (Panda, Penguin, etc) were a good thing (and still are a good thing) Will paid ads continue to push organic rankings out of SERPs? Are voice-based search devices going to destroy SEO? Click through rates for top rankings in organic listings vs. paid listings Transcription Joe: Hey Mark, how are you doing today? Mark: Doing great. Joe: I understand you recorded a podcast with Corey Northcutt and it was all about SEO. Mark: That's right so Corey and I know each other through Young Entrepreneurs Council which is a great collection of entrepreneurs, some of the best resources that you can find online for anybody that is an entrepreneur out there and is looking for good networking opportunities. You do have to meet certain thresholds in order to join and Corey obviously hits those. I've used his services for another business of mine and was really really impressed with what he had to offer. Brad who works with us is actually the one who first recommended him to me. This guy has been working in the online world and SEO capacity forever. I mean he's a dinosaur in the SEO world, knows a ton about SEO. And one of the questions I posed for him and I really wanted to drill down on this podcast was whether or not there is value at all in SEO anymore from a buy in standpoint; in other words can it be trusted? I had a buyer tell me just a few weeks ago we were talking on the phone about one of the businesses I was representing and he wanted to know where our customers are coming from on the websites and I said well he's got good rankings and then he also does paid. And he came back and he told me and said I don't really care about the organic rankings because I can't control that at all. In fact all I care about is a paid acquisition channel. I think we hear that more and more from people that they trust that paid acquisition channel more than the organic channel. But I think it's almost an overreaction and there's a lot of opportunity being lost because everyone focuses just on the paid and just use the organic just has a sort of bonus to everything else. The couple of the topics that we addressed in this podcast is whether or not the future of SEO is going to be strong. You know we have more and more devices being added for voice-based search. We have the paid creep that's been happening on organic rankings where organic listings are being pushed down the page. And so this is really kind of a step back to look at your online business and say should I be focusing on SEO, what's the opportunity here with SEO as well. Joe: Okay so I'm not going to say whether I think you know you should be focused on it or not. What I can say is that a business with multiple traffics of multiple channels of revenue is worth a lot more money and from my experience a long time ago SEO was a long term game. I survived the Penguin updates, Panda update … actually I sold before the Penguin Update but it didn't matter because I didn't know anything about link building anyway. All I did was good quality content over a long period of time and I was rewarded. It's a lot more complicated than that I think. So I'm really excited to see what Corey has to say. Let's go ahead listen. Mark: Well one second, I'm going to give away a bit of a teaser on this and that is something that you said; I think what you said is perfect because it is the sense that a lot- Joe: Did you say that what I said was perfect just now? Mark: Dude, don't let it get to your head. Yeah it was actually perfect because a lot of people think that SEO is more complex. They think it's complicated. They think that it's a nut that's very difficult to crack. And a lot of us, especially those who have been around through the panda, penguin, hummingbird, you know all these sort of updates; animal updates that happened look at a SEO and like my goodness you can't trust this. Look what happened back then it got completely destroyed. One of the big takeaways from this and Corey gets into this is that SEO now is more predictable than it's ever been. Google's gotten better at what they're doing so they don't need to shake things up as much anymore. Now is a little bit harder to rank; sure because Google has done a better job of putting good information in front of people. But rankings are more stable now than they've ever been before. And so you need big takeaway is that while it's somewhat complex there's a huge opportunity because people like you and I have kind of looked at SEO as that thing as a bonus out there. Joe: From a buyer's point of view what you just said might be very valuable. You know it takes … it's harder to rank now and so if we're listening to business and there's good organic rankings, that in itself could have more value to a buyer. Because most everybody else just cheats to get to the top and you can't actually do that anymore but if you're at the top on page one that's really strong strong value. And I think hopefully in the long run for any business will add more diverse revenue channels which brings its a valuable. Mark: All right can we listen to Corey now? Joe: Absolutely, let's go. Mark: All right Corey, thank you for joining me on this quick episode here on SEO. Corey: Absolutely, thanks for having me. Mark: So yeah I know you've listened to a couple of the episodes before so you know that we like to have our guests introduce themselves. So why don't we provide everyone listening here with a background on yourself. Corey: Yeah I'd love to. So I've been doing SEO for going on 17 years. I've been … I guess running business of different shapes and forms for about as long. I came from web hosting and doing different IT brands and now I run an SEO agency called Northcutt. Mark: That's awesome. Yeah and I've actually … just full disclosure I have user services in the past but with a lot of the guests that we have here on the Quiet Light Podcast, the people that we've use in one cast in another their services so we trust the services, we trust you as far as your … the quality work that you do. And I also know Brad who works with Quiet Light Brokerage; he has used your services quite a bit in the past as well which is how I was referred to you. It was actually through Brad. So that that's pretty cool. Now you have a past in we posting as well is that right? Corey: That's true. Yeah I started at a provider called Ubiquity that was eventually acquired by LeaseWeb but not before I actually exited the company and sold it back to my business partners. Mark: That's pretty cool, so my background is actually web hosting as well. My first job out of college was with a company called Alabanza Corporation and they were the first ones to create the people know like web hosting manager or cPanel. They were the first ones to actually come out with a cPanel and cPanel's a competition to Alabanza. And I remember when we developed that the CEO talking about competition told me he's like I'm not worried about competition, it take … took us years to be able to create our I think he called it the account management [inaudible 00:07:01.2] stupid like that. And of course the temple was already out there so it didn't take them years to replicate what we were doing and it done quite well; so cautionary tale there. But the first business I sold under Quiet Light Brokerage was a web hosting company, so very familiar with the space. So you sold that, how many businesses have you bought and sold over the years? Corey: So I like to call myself a three time founder in all my bios. It's tough to say though because I have partners and in that I've had a lot of failed ventures too. A lot of projects that I've spun up or that maybe sold for cheap so it's been all over the map. I did web hosting. We spun off a data center services brand from that. We had Ventrilo provider called DarkStar Communications which was the largest provider of Ventrilo for quite a while. Most people I think don't even know what that is anymore. Mark: Yeah I've never heard of it. Corey: It was a big bank for a while. And it wasn't even my world but it was kids play World of Warcraft, they would need voice chat for that and it sounds insane today we've got Zoom and Skype and all these tools that are free but they would pay for it. So you'd have 50 or 100 people on one voice server and you needed tools to manage it. So a lot of different businesses; I kind of created a framework for how I like to build and market them but all in completely different spaces. Mark: You know I like to segment Internet entrepreneurs as to those that were started before the panda, penguin days and those that have come into it after because the world is so much different. You know people like you and I that have been in the online world for I'm going on 20 years here since I've built my first website. And you know back then and actually back when I started Quiet Light Brokerage, when I decided to start Quiet Light Brokerage what did I do? I went out and I built a website from scratch and then I custom coded an affiliate program in there and that was kind of how I launched everything was me going out coding, designing, launching, doing the SEO; everything top to bottom. And today I mean if you want to start a new site you can still do that but boy it's so much different today you don't … you really wouldn't want to take that approach as much. It's gotten a lot more complex. Corey: It's true. Mark: Yeah. And you seem to come from that sort of past entrepreneur pay and this is a good idea let me see if I can just build this out real quick. Corey: Yeah and yet it's changed so much. Yeah and I have … on one hand I love how quickly you can spend things up like you've got Shopify, you see people with stores in 10 minutes; it's completely insane. On the other hand I feel like a lot of people don't go as deep with their businesses now. You've got projects I can start a company and it might make 500 dollars a month and that's fine and it … I'll do 10 of those this week. The mindset has changed. Mark: Yeah I know definitely it's changed quite a bit. So I wanted to have you on to talk about SEO and I'll tell you kind of the question that spurred this on for me and I think it would be a good start for our discussion here. I was talking to a buyer the other day about one of my clients and he's Amazon and Magento mixed so he's got his own websites but you know a good portion of his business comes through Amazon. But we're looking at the websites because they're doing really well. Amazon is struggling but the websites are good; really really well. And we're looking at the host and this buyer was asking where does the client … where did the clients come from, are they coming from organic rankings or they're coming from paid service or good mature search campaign out there. So I told him well it's a mix you know there's really good SEO on the site, there's room to improve that as well but they also have a paid campaign that they will get. And this buyer almost seemed to dismiss the SEO side and said well I can't control the SEO world at all, I'm interested in the paid acquisition. And I see this more and more and I think this is kind of the people waking up from the hangover of the panda, penguin which is almost quick as far of be coming up on seven years or something like that; is that right? Seven years is that pretty close? Corey: Well- Mark: [crosstalk 00:11:06.9] try to also work. It's been a while since this happened and I think people have really adjusted their mindset to not trusting SEO at all. So my question to you and to ask in behalf of everyone that out there looking to buy an online business, can you trust SEO and can you build or grow a business on the back of SEO and have it be sustainable? Corey: Oh my God Yes. So there is one question that has been around since I feel like SEO began which is where this is going, it … can I trust it long term, and I think Google's actually been very transparent about what they want to accomplish. As much as we've had different updates like Panda, and Penguin, Hummingbird, chip things up to there's been quite a few but Google's always been forthcoming. And I feel like most of the media out there sensationalizes what's happening and it does a disservice to business owners. Because … and what does Google really care about? They want to reward an experience that is naturally relevant, popular, and enjoyable; that's it. And they've been working towards this goal for all of this time and I don't think it goes away. There is never going to be a point to where a better experience is paid advertising for what they deliver. If they ever reach that point I think all bets are off. I think somebody disrupts them; being or somebody else overtakes them. There's no way people want that. It is a better experience when it's not simply rented. So that doesn't go away it's just they keep it iterating towards getting better at what they set out to do. Like we talk about that pre-panda, pre-penguin world, I think it did a lot of good. I look back at how I did SEO back then and you know it was a little gray. It was hard to … like that was the conversation we were having with people. It's like I think we should be as white hat as possible. At that time I feel like that that was a source of a lot of that grand fish can spam. At the time he was not getting very much respect from professional SEO's and he was saying no, completely white hat, don't mess with anything, no schemes, no link real pyramid tetrahedron. Yeah like I'm sure you've seen all the different diagrams and wacky ideas that people were coming up with back then and that panda made him correct that just overnight everything shifted and it was like well yeah they finally got better and they really are rewarding people that aren't going against Google like do you want to work with them. Mark: Let me play devil's advocate a little bit here and argue against SEO. Now this is not my personal position. I actually agree with you. I think there's a ton of opportunity in SEO and I actually think the world is a … the SEO world is a lot more stable today than it was back in the pre updates of pre-panda, penguin, hummingbird updates mainly because the results are better and Google is still having a better experience and before it was very easy to came, the search engines. You were doing grey hat, I was doing grey hat, everybody was doing grey hat back then. But anyways let me play devil's advocate. Two changes that people look at and they see it as encroaching on the organic SEO. One would be the number of paid listings that show up above the fold on Google and where organic rankings start to be pushed down. And two voice enabled search. Let's start with the first one here the placement of organic rankings. I have another business that I own and I absolutely absolutely hate bidding on my brand keyword. Because it's my brand keyword, I show up number one, I show up number two, I show up number three, but if I don't bid on it I I've got four other people bidding on my brand and they're above me. So from that standpoint has SEO become less valuable for business owners or is that a trend that you think is going to continue where paid listings push out the organic rankings? Corey: I don't and in fact I … you know I saw the same trends. And by the way if somebody just for the benefit of listeners, if somebody is pushing you out that way on your branded searches if they mention you by name you can file a trademark request with Google and get them shut down. It … they're still able to use your brand name as a keyword but it can water down their messaging if somebody is getting too aggressive with that. So I don't see it going too much further and yeah that was a big story each time Google has experimented with expanding the ad block but there's data on quick relates that's out there. Rand Fishkin actually threw his new startup SparkToro all those Jumpshot's analysis on this and it's incredible how many people still click on organic overpaid. The overwhelming majority still click on organic across the board even in the most extreme like biased examples I've seen. I actually just sent out our quarterly here a few weeks ago that looked at this AAReps had their own click through rate data of tons of searches that they've scraped and in their example they said the maximum went up to 46% with click on ads. Up to is the operative word there I think that's the most extreme example. It's 46% where you know it's a branded, your brand is number one; obviously, that's what they wanted. We're going to click that sure but the Jumpshot data said 3% was their average. So somewhere between 3% and 46% are clicking on paid ads. It's still the minority and I don't see that ever changing. Mark: 3% to 46% is pretty broad. Corey: It is pretty broad. The average is three. Mark: Okay. Corey: But yeah. Mark: That's amazing. Yeah and in the example I have we have a lot of brand confusion in our space and my main competitor has been very very good at causing brand confusion. So it's a personal annoyance for me right now, my personal mission to get them out of that number one spot even though I'm losing money on it. Corey: Not this. Mark: Yeah. So that's interesting. I would have tend to agree that there's only so much real estate that they're going to give to the ad spot, to those ad blocks because it's … they have been focused from day one on that user experience. So they want users especially brand searches to be able to find the brand that they're looking for. What about voice enabled search? I know for myself and if I want to find out some quick data or whatever I've got a Google Pixel Phone I just give a little squeeze and Google's system comes up and I just ask it the question and more and more it's becoming intelligent in giving the response. More and more it's taking those responses of course from other websites and so they aren't getting any of the traffic to that. This wouldn't be so much a concern for e-commerce sites but for content sites I mean is this something to be looking out for and maybe something that's going to encroach on their opportunities in the future? Corey: Yeah there is definitely demographics that are going to be hit by this. You and I talked about famous quotations here a week ago in how that is an industry that got hit pretty hard by Panda. I think the nuance is any short simple information is going to have a hard time. Like just the example from last month, Google actually started returning no results searches and people asked for the time of day. And there was a website that was timeanddate.com it ranked number one for all of these and I'm sure they were raking in a lot of AdSense doing it, not probably great ads for those people but still it was working for them in the moment. So there are really nuanced types of businesses that I think buyers should probably be a little wary of. If it doesn't give deep information it can't be [inaudible 00:19:11.5] by a simple answer from Google. But if it does go deeper I think it goes outside the scope of what Google can accomplish with voice search because it's going to be complex. There's going to be value in multiple results then so that's [inaudible 00:19:26.1]. Mark: Okay well you know I think that's a fair answer. I think when you ask Google a question, if it's a quick answer like time and date that makes sense. But if you're asking how to replace a sprinkler head, Google might give you a short response but you're not looking for a three step process for that. You're probably looking for pictures or video or more in depth you know of your in-depth guide. And so getting that response is actually a good thing, getting that being that featured response at Google will probably be a good thing because more people are going to click through to your page right? Corey: Yup and there's also still value being lost right now from what they call no click searches. Where maybe you appear within the knowledge card, like the top of the results; people see your brand, they see that it's from you; they don't click through and see your analytics. But at some point who cares, if they still saw your brand you still helped them, and they still see then you may have accomplished what you set out to you anyway. It's just not going to be attributed as well. Mark: Right; of course. I get it the top of funnels sort of just brand awareness and awareness to your brand, what's better to vouch for you than Google right? Corey: Right. Mark: If Google's going to feature you on their search result page that's a pretty good thing and if people don't know what I'm talking about here do you have an example that you know off the top your head where a knowledge card will show up. Corey: Recipes are a big one now. I don't know any exactly at the top of my head but- Mark: Well didn't … wasn't there that one for a while which was why are fire engines red; do you remember seeing that? Corey: I think that so, it sounds familiar. Mark: Yeah if people haven't looked at this, do a search for why are fire engines red and take a look at what the response is. They may have updated it since I last did it but it was just somebody had the game of the knowledge card and it was kind of a crazy response. Corey: Yeah, but it's still not that hard to do. Mark: So I … okay so if I already had, you can't leave with that not go into it. Corey: Well we know what their data sources are so yeah you can … what Google is not good at is understanding what you're telling it, and that's what they're working on back checking right? Being able to actually understand is this good and not are these words here and phrase didn't maybe kind of mean something. And that's what I think they'll improve that maybe next. I think it'll take a while because they're still behind what a lot of the articles give them credit for now if you like but we do know which way they're going. There's an analogy. I love Aj Kohn as an SEO blogger; his company is called The Blind Five Year Old because that's how he perceives Google still. Kind of hyperactively bouncing out of your sight not really knowing what it's doing but they are still moving in a direction that makes sense. And with the knowledge cards there's different sources of data where I mean you can literally just put it in and hope that Google crawls it. So you can update Wikidata at wikidata.org put in some bunk information and sure they might index it. They might see that it's not that hard to fool it. Mark: That's funny. All right well I got some pressing question to get to here. Even though this is fascinating and would be fun to explore all the idiosyncrasies of the world of Google but let's talk about, let's put ourselves in a position of a buyer looking to acquire a business and I want to have more opportunities for SEO and how to uncover some of those and where some of the mistakes are. But before we do that let's talk about due diligence side of things. So he's looking to buy a business, it receives a good amount of traffic from natural organic rankings. What are some of the things that people should be looking out for when doing due diligence? For example private blog networks, are these still something to look out for or are there other things that you may want to caution people on inspecting before they do an acquisition? Corey: Right so without a doubt I would never buy any website without looking at its backlink portfolio. There are basically two arms of SEO right, you've got what happens on the website and off of it. I'm not so concerned about what's happening on the website. I know just based on my background I can probably make it a lot better. But I know that it's not a danger zone, the links are. So first are they trending upwards that's a good sign; bad links tend to get moderated. It makes sense, if somebody spams a whole bunch of forums or blogs they use a piece of software, it's going to get turned away and their Google patents that talk about this as a signal. Like if somebody blasts 100,000 links and all of a sudden they disappear I immediately know something's wrong. And even if something's not wrong if they had a good reason for that to happen, I still haven't really seen one, but if they did it … that pattern looks really bad. So that's the first thing, okay I guess I start to dig into it and I start to look for schemes like you mentioned; are there link wheels, are there … you mentioned that you and I are pre-Panda people a little bit here. I've … I know the schemes because I've used the schemes. I've tried the schemes and I know what all of them look like. There's any of maybe a dozen which might go beyond our time right now but- Mark: So with some of these schemes how would somebody identify these? Obviously link patterns so seeing declining back wings would be an example of things being moderated away from low quality sites or even high quality sites where it's been spammed to a public place. But for like a Link Wheel or a PBN, are there tools that you would recommend somebody use for this or is it really just something where you need to hire somebody like you to be able to help identify these schemes? Corey: Sure. Well I won't go so far as to say someone has to hire me but I do have a lot of skepticism in the tools only because we see them throw a lot of false positives. They do good things too but I've got a team that's used every backlink auto link tool I think at this point and they're flawed certainly. Especially when you pair them with the activity of disavowing links which is usually the natural next step. When you find bad links people tend to use the disavow form in Google Search Console and that's irreversible so it's really really dangerous. We've very frequently been approached by people that ran an automated link audit, got a lot of terrible advice, disavowed a lot of good links, their rankings went away, and they need help and all we can say is well now you've just got to rebuild like you shouldn't have done this. That was a bad idea. So I think it's just about recognizing the schemes and the most overarching witness test in my mind is does this double as good marketing. Sometimes it's just a completely automated site like you see a lot of these like statistics websites, and he ways websites, those big automated plays. I would usually say if a site links to every site on the internet which you can usually see, like is it linking to every domain alphabetically; you see that a lot on the backlink tools. I don't worry about those. I don't think you should disavow those because that's not a scheme. That's not a pattern that you want out and will and that's a flaw in every auditing tool I've used. So I wouldn't worry about those. I also wouldn't worry about anything that is editorially relevant. Like is it editorial, a guest post, a press release, a mention of any kind really that happened from a human but if it didn't and you can usually tell by this kind of thumbing through the side a little bit that usually means that your link is appearing besides other schemes. And if a link is really easy to get that by definition kind of makes it a bad link which is counterintuitive right? You've got all these SEO services that are offering fast easy links for everybody. That's flawed because if it's really for anybody that means that you're link appears besides porn sites you know fill affiliates like all sorts of really kind of sketchy looking stuff. It shouldn't be easy for everybody and that's really the way to tell it I think. Mark: So something that we see with Quiet Light Brokerage in our backlink profile is we'll get a piece published informs or entrepreneur or in [inaudible 00:27:36.5 a good piece and obviously we love those backlinks. But then sure enough there is these really low quality sites that will take that article that blog post and they'll republish it and you know it's just a complete spammy site. You can tell that there's never a human that has touched that site other than initially [inaudible 00:27:55.7]. Are those backlinks, if somebody is doing a backlink analysis on the site and they see some good high quality backlinks but then they see a whole bunch of copycats stuff is that anything to worry about in your opinion? Corey: It depends a little bit on the site. If they're purely just scraping forbes, I'd say well today link back because if they do it reminds me a little bit of press indication which is perfectly natural and it's a signal that I think any grown up brand is going to have. Like you've got basically every publicly traded companies running out regular press releases so if I put on my … like if I'm Google Ad that actually looks okay. But if it's a really low quality site you might see them also doing other shady stuff so you might have to look at their backlink portfolio and kind of pick apart what they're doing. Mark: Okay fair enough that is good advice. And if anybody is listening to this and you're completely lost as far as what Corey is talking about here I'm sure you could reach out to him and get a little bit more insight into some of these things. The world of SEO is kind of this big old rabbit hole, you can understand on a very basic level or you can get into [inaudible 00:29:02.3] sort of the more nuanced stuff. In which case you're talking about link wheels and different types of shapes as far as linking patterns which I've thrown most of that out the window years ago when I started seeing a lot of the updates come through. So and I want to talk about that you know we talked a lot about backlinks and backlink profiles, it's been my perception and please correct me you are the expert in this not me, it's my perception that backlinks haven't been so much devalued as might have been surpassed or might have … might be having other ranking indicators kind of come up alongside backlinks as being important. And one of the ones I've seen has been topic coverage, topical coverage on a page. So an example of that would be we have a blog post on I want the Seller's Discretionary Earnings well we also want to cover not only what a Seller's Discretionary Earnings but what does it mean for an Accrual Basis versus Cash Basis Accounting and you know what is Net Income, what is Gross Revenue because these are related topics to the one thing so having all that content now is a good signal to Google. In my correct or incorrect or off based when I say that the backlinks while still important are playing alongside some of these other newer ranking factors? Corey: Yeah I mean you'd be correct in saying On Page matters more and in more nuanced ways. It's tough to weigh like do links matter less because links are infinite really. On page is still finite so I think in that math equation links can never matter less because you can always do more with links. You can't always do more with your site so that makes that equation interesting. But yeah since the Hilltop Algorithm which I believe was written by Krishna Bharat, he published a paper that it's actually really old but it was pre-Panda by a lot and it broke down I think what they've been building upon for a really long time which for the first time defined what they call topical experts. And if you really dig into the paper it appears to be talking about domains as experts and they played but there's a little bit you know you had authorship of Google+ I think was one sort of riff on that idea of trying to figure out who really knows about a topic. And around that time SEO's like crazy with the concept of relevance. People are saying well you only want links from relevant sites. I think that's bunk because well do I not want to link from CNN they don't … they're not an SEO website, obviously I do, obviously that's still a good link. But there's more value if I get somebody from within my space on average. So it's just one more metric, it's a little bump I feel like in their favor if they're relevant or if you're relevant. They're looking at the themes throughout your site definitely. So to your point yeah that exact same idea, the more you cover a topic the more I think your ratio of expertise is strengthened there. And for the same reason Mike & Mitch E-commerce Shop should absolutely be able to outrank Amazon. They're generic, they don't have that focus and we see that a lot. Mark: That seems to be a recurring theme of this podcast here; how to be Amazon at their own game. And I've talked to so many e-commerce business owners who get frustrated by … when they put their own listings up on Amazon and all of a sudden Amazon's outranking their niche store. But I think your point of if you have good topical coverage on your site, if you're doing … if you're making sure the on page is right you should be able to outrank Amazon because it is a specialized site. And that actually said was a really nice link into the final section I want to cover and that is opportunities for pretty much any buyer when you're looking to acquire an online business opportunities in SEO. I see huge opportunities with most of the stuff I look at and working on the on page SEO, what are a few areas in your opinion that people should look at when they're looking to grow the SEO presence of either an e-commerce shop or a SAS business or a content business but really kind of looking at that a SEO portion, what are a few areas that are common pieces of low hanging fruit that you see? Corey: Sure. Well since Panda there are a lot more diamonds in the rough I feel like that just have broken on page SEO and the poster case study going all the way back was Danny Webb right? Everyone was talking about Danny Web which was one of the biggest tech forms, they lost easily all their rankings when Panda first hit and they managed to recover by removing what people later called thin content. Which were just pages that might have fifty words on the page, it was all the different individual profiles that people had, there were millions of them. Most of them were a bad search engine experience. So when I see a site that has a lot of pages that don't offer value to Google but don't carry the no index tag, the media tag, and the source code [inaudible 00:33:56.5] but code in the source that says keep us out of Google's index. I know well hey I can do that and overnight strengthen the stuff I want to keep and cut out the stuff that's just never going to be of any value and that's going to help a lot. I also look for sites that don't have a keyword strategy, sites that for whatever reason have never had any links but still enjoyed some organic success. There's a lot of ways to play this. In total there's I think a couple hundred ranking factors. I basically just look for a couple that have been 100% neglected because I feel like that's where people leave the most money on the table basically where I can see a quick one. Mark: Yeah, I think again coming back to round out this discussion, I think since the updates and after the updates everybody was scared of organic traffic and understandably so. I mean it was very difficult for a lot of people because they owned a business overnight an update happened and the rankings are gone, revenue is gone. A lot of businesses were built on this kind of shaky SEO and Google's done a good job of cleaning that up. But people now see the benefit of relying on paid acquisitions. As a result though I think there's a huge opportunity for buyers to take a look at pretty much any property that is not on Amazon. So any web-based property content sites etcetera etcetera and be able to really grow that business through good SEO practices. As you said looking at keyword strategies are, is there any keyword strategy there, or do they have good topical coverage, are they doing the basics to be able to rank well, and because no one is really doing that or very few people are really doing that on page SEO anymore it's kind of amazing how quickly it's fallen out of favor. Yeah so let me ask you if anybody wants to talk to you what's the best way to reach you? Corey: Sure. Well they can pop on our website which is just northcutt.com drop me an email it's just corey@northcutt.comor follow me on Twitter corey_northcutt to be my first name, any of those work. Mark: All right good. We'll all link to those in the podcast page the show notes so everyone can take a look at that. And you know again we don't get kickbacks from guests or anything like that but we do refer people that we've used in the past successfully and the services of yours is definitely a service that I've gotten good value out of. I know you did some work for me, I think it was back in October your group did some work for me and those pages are doing quite well now so thank you for that. I never gave you an update on that; they're doing pretty well. Corey: Yeah, sure. Mark: Yeah so thanks so much for coming on. I think this is an interesting topic and maybe one that we need to explore again in the future. Corey: Oh I'd like that. Mark: All right, thanks Corey. Corey: Thanks Mark.
Your online business is likely your MOST VALUABLE ASSET. And calculating its value is critical to setting goals and knowing your net worth. “But I never plan to sell” is something we hear often…and as entrepreneurs most of us @ QLB have said the same thing. Yet each of us has built, bought and sold our own online business…even the ones we never planned to sell. When I sold my web-based business in 2010 I was a novice. With what I know today if I could go back in time I would have planned my exit and likely sold my business for 2-3x more than I did. Instead…I waited until I was emotionally tired of the business, and sold it when the numbers were half what the once were. Not smart. Don't be like me…listen to this Podcast and implement our suggestions. You risk everything building and running your business, and you should get maximum value if/when you exit. The first step in getting max value is understanding the valuation process and being able to calculate your Seller's Discretionary Earning (SDE). Mark and I joke about falling asleep in this podcast due to some of the content…we're joking…and the material here is incredibly valuable. Episode Highlights: Learn the basic web based business valuation formula. Get to know what parts of a business swing the value range up or down. Net Income, plus Add Backs = Seller's Discretionary Earnings (SDE). What's an Add Back? Learn what are acceptable and unacceptable add backs. How add backs boost the value of your business. Using accrual accounting vs. cash for COGS…critical to understand for both buyers and sellers. Learn the typical multiple (value) ranges for an online business. Why a larger business fetches a higher multiple than a smaller ones. Inventory is SOLD SEPARATELY. If you own a physical products business, while listening to this Podcast your inventory levels will change. Including it in the list price artificially inflates the multiple of the business and results in an unstable list price. Transcription: Mark: Hey Joe how are you? Joe: I'm good Mark. How are you doing today? Mark: I'm good. Today we have an unusual guest at least for our podcast. Joe: That's what my wife calls me unusual. Mark: Well that's because you are the guest right? And in Quiet Light Podcast fashion, I'm going to have you introduce yourself to all of our listeners who have no idea who you are. Actually, they know you probably better than you may know yourself at this point because they've listened to you so much but I want to provide just a quick introduction for yourself. Joe: Wow this is how our guest feels. Now I'm on the spot. I hadn't thought that you were going to do that to me. But who am I? Self-employed since 1997, I'm kind of an old guy. Can you see that? A gray hair. 52 years old. Built box sold own online businesses, sold my last e-commerce business for a company called Quiet Light Brokerage. Jason here was my broker; you were the first guy I talked to. I loved the process in transactions so much. I reached out to you and six months later I said you know I'd love to be a broker and you said yeah let me talk to Jason. Jason thankfully said yeah talk to this guy. I came on in early 2012. You and I are now partners now. You're the majority and I'm just a small guy in the process but since then closed what approaching 30 million in total transactions might get 50 by the end of this year depending upon what happens, been around the block a little bit; lots and lots and lots of transactions of all shapes and sizes. Mark: And I think it's safe to say that you have built a name for yourself in the industry quite a bit. People know you. And I think for the first time in the history of the company we had a client you are working with and your plate was getting a little bit full so you thought about trying to hand him off to me and he said “No, I don't want to work with the founder of the company. I'd rather work with you, Joe.” And that's never happened. I'm totally happy about that though not that I don't want to be working with a client but it just goes to show the reputation that you built in the industry. Joe: Or how your represent…reputation is now destroyed. I'm not sure. Mark: Probably, now the word has gotten out. Well, he's not actually as good as we thought compared to Joe or Jason or these other guys. Well, we did a podcast episode a while ago with Chuck Mullins and we're going to be doing more of these words “Meet the Broker”. We also did one with Jason. So those you can find back in the podcast history but we obviously don't want to just talk about you and your background as fascinating as I'm sure that might be. You've got lots of years of wisdom to share with everybody. But we want to actually talk about a specific topic and I…and today we're going to talk about specifically how to calculate the value of your web based business or any web based business and what is the process that goes on behind the scenes to calculate that value. I know you gave a presentation recently, I think back in January out in California on this and it turned into a lot of questions about the actual valuation process. Like just the formula itself and how do we arrive at a certain number. So for those listening, we are going to talk you through this. But for those that are watching we will have something up on the screen a presentation that you can follow along. If you're listening in your car and you want to come back later you can find this on our YouTube Quiet Light Academy or on our podcast page at Quiet Light Brokerage. So tell us a little bit about the presentation Joe and how you kind of spent so much time just on the first half of this presentation. Joe: Yeah the presentation is really supposed to be about you know the pillars of growth. There's generally four of them and I put planning in there as a fifth. It was supposed to be about the pillars of maximum value but in order to get to that, I had to talk about how to calculate your seller's discretionary earnings in the value of your business and then it got into add backs. I really was going to do about a five minute presentation on that, about a 40 minute presentation on the rest, and then 30 minutes at Q and A. It turned into about 45 minutes of Q and A alone on calculating the value, in particular, the add backs. What was acceptable, what was not, and then the multiples and ranges depending on the net. So today in this first episode I want to touch on how to calculate the value of your business and then we'll get to the four pillars of value after that. So simply put Mark it's an easy formula. There should be no confusion about it. If you're looking at the screen there trailing 12 months seller's discretionary earnings times the multiple equals the list price of your business, simple; right? 300,000 in discretionary earnings times three you got a list price of a business of 900,000 in the key plus the landed cost of good saleable inventory on hand at the time of closing that. All of that language is really critical. Now I've been a guest on podcasts as well as you on other people's podcasts and we've talked about this formula at the beginning of the podcast and then literally 15 minutes in the host will say “So how do you calculate the value of your company again because it's simple but really-really confusing.” So I want to go through it. So we know this formula it's up to the screen again for listeners it's your seller's discretionary earnings for your trailing 12 months times A multiple equals the list price plus the inventory if you've got a physical products business. But the problem here is calculating the seller's discretionary earnings. We'll get to how to figure out what your multiple is but the most important thing is how to calculate seller's discretionary earnings. So it's up there on the screen now. It's simple if you use accounting software which is kind of important. Right, Mark? Mark: Very very very much important, yes. Joe: One of the four pillars. It's net income plus add backs equals your seller's discretionary earnings. So if you run a profit loss in Quick Books or Xero it's going to give you a net income number on the bottom. But every entrepreneur, for the most part, sometimes partnerships have better books…cleaner books. But most entrepreneurs, if you take a small salary, if you have a car that you ride after the business, you have your mobile phone as run through the business, all these things are personal in nature and then there's some one-time expenses as well. Those are considered add backs. So if you run a business and your net income is zero, that doesn't mean your business is worth zero. You could take a hundred thousand dollar salary and that's an add back as it's a personal benefit. Makes sense? Mark: Makes sense. But I'm going to back up just a minute here. Joe: Okay. Mark: Go back to the previous slide. Joe: Yup. Mark: Now where we're talking about the formula that we're using to calculate value. In that formula again, just to drill it into people's heads, it is the trailing 12 months seller's discretionary earnings which is close to a bit in most cases but not always. So we take that we times it by a multiple and that's where we come up with the asking price or the estimated value of a business. But let me ask you or to give an objection that we hear a lot from sellers when they see this. Isn't this too simple, what about all the other aspects of their business? What about the unique relationship that they have with the supplier or the upward mobility or upward scalability of the business and the trajectory of it? Isn't this just looking at the income only and not paying attention to all those other things? Joe: Yes and no. Right? And that's the answer is that we come up with a value range it's not a firm number, it's a value range and your business may swing in that range depending upon some of those things. If you've got a five year old business and you've got 30% year over year growth versus an 18-month old business, one is more valuable than the other. If you've got a patent on a particular skew that you have that prevents other people from competing with you that brings more value. If you have diversified revenue streams, you know Shopify, or your physical…your website, Amazon…different Amazon countries, Jet, Walmart, Daily Deal sites that's diversified revenue. Diversify…diversification means less risk. Less risk means higher in that multiple range. So all of those things come into play but as I say often we can't take an email list of 10,000 and say each email address is worth five dollars and do that math and add that to the value of the business. What it does simply is boost the value range of the business itself. Mark: Right. Joe: I think another way to understand this as well is that although our formula has two main parts the trailing twelve months seller's discretionary earnings in one part and in multiple being the other part, that doesn't mean that is…we're looking at two things. As we're going to go into both sides of this the multiple and the trailing twelve months are summations of bigger calculations. So when we could get to the SDE, when we're calculating that seller's discretionary earnings, we're going to go over that in this podcast episode, there's a lot involved in calculating seller's discretionary earnings just as there's a lot that goes into understanding what makes its multiples. These things kind of summarize the business and all of those intangibles as well. And I think a lot of people that do know this formula they focus a lot on the multiple. But I love the fact that what we're going to do here is we're going to unpack this seller's discretionary earnings number and see what goes into building that. Because this is actually an area where there is a lot of opportunity for optimization [inaudible 00:12:44.4]. And once you understand this aspect of it and you plan in advance sale of your business you're never to sell but someday you may wake up and want to move on, you understand the value you're going to have a much more valuable business down the road. And you know I think we were at a presentation together where someone got up and said adds are the most valuable asset that you own as your business and if you don't take care of it and you don't understand it's value you not really maximizing it; so really important. You know the key point here is Mark the trailing 12 months. It's not the trailing three, trailing six times two or anything like that; the trailing 12 always takes into account the seasonality of the business and we do every…a year over year comparison when working on that multiple valuation as well. Mark: Yeah and just one last [inaudible 00:13:32.3] on this, this is one formula that is used. It's used in this industry for online businesses which is why we use it. It is not the only way to estimate the value of a business but what I would tell anybody out there that wants to look at different valuation approaches they all essentially do the same thing. Some do it more complex than others and at the end of the day, these are predictive formulas right? I'm trying to predict what's base trying to pay. So anyways on with the next line, I took us back a little bit but I did want to get in to that a little bit. So add backs- Joe: Keep doing it I do this every day and it's simple language to me now but it is not simple, it's pretty complex. Mark: Right okay so let's get into the seller's discretionary earnings if I'm going to Quick Books because everybody I know that's listening is using Quick Books or Xero or a professional accounting software right? Everybody's using that I'm sure nobody's using Excel. Where can I go in Quick Books to calculate or see what my seller's discretionary earnings are? Joe: You can't. Mark: That is not in Quick Books? Joe: No. Mark: What is that, what is seller's discretionary earnings? Joe: It's your net income what you get out of Quick Books or Xero plus the add backs. That's what you call seller's discretionary earnings. So the big question is what's an add back? And this is why it took 45 minutes in the Q and A session that I did. So when you get to add backs and I'll go to the next slide here this is a lot of information but really an add back is something that is a personal benefit to the owner of the company or a one-time expense. Now there are always exceptions to the rule and you always want to use math and logic. But an example is owner payroll, if someone takes a payroll of 128,000 dollars to maximize their social security, that's an owner benefit and if your business is doing net income of 500,000 dollars, you add back 128 to that so now your discretionary earnings should be 628. Simple round numbers if you're doing 50 in net income and you take salary of 50 you're discretionary earnings becomes 100,000. And so if your multiple is 3X on the net income it's only 50, on discretionary earnings it's 300,000 big difference. Mark: Right. So why are we adding back these expenses? Because basically what you're doing is you're going through, you're taking a look at a company's income statement or profit and loss statement and that's something that you can generate in Quick Books or Xero or any professional accounting software. And you're going through those expenses and you're looking at some and you're saying okay we're going to add…and right now this is acting as a subtracting number to the revenue and that's how it would get to net income. But you're saying we're going to actually add that expense back so effectively take it out. Why are we taking out these expenses? Joe: They're personal in nature and they're personal benefit but you need to in your terminology taking it out you have to go with full disclosure to the buyers. They want to see every cent and so you don't go into the Quick Books accounting, you delete these personal expenses. You leave them there yet you run the report you export it to Excel and then below that net income you create an add back schedule and you go up to…okay this one's personal mail and entertainment travel or what you did a website redesign you spent 10,000 dollars three months ago. That's a one-time expense, for the most part, we could add that back. And you had an employee that did outside sales and she tried, she was only around for three months it was a 15,000 dollars expense she produced zero outside sales commissions is that an add back? We could talk about in some cases it is. But there's a lot of that today goes deep deep deep in the conversations with the owner of the business in order to get to the most important number which is a seller's discretionary earnings. Mark: All right very good. So when we're doing these add backs what we're doing is we're taking out these expenses because we want to present it to buyers and show them what the business operates from a standard starting point. So we call these discretionary expenses and we call them discretionary expenses because their expenses that the owner is spending at their discretion could be circular about it. So how do you go about or I'm going to hand back over to you, what's the next step for going through and explaining and understanding these add backs? Joe: Let's just give some example, some things that people brought up and I just pop something up on the screen you know question. Can I go to the gym every day? You go to the gym pretty often right? You try to get out and you might run it after your business is that a personal benefit you tell me? Mark: Yeah. Joe: Absolutely. So if you spend 50 dollars a month for the gym that's an add back, it's 300 dollars a year. That's a thousand dollars added to the value of your business if your multiple is over three times. Your car, your meals, and your entertainment; a big one that you and I and the entire team talked about recently was as an entrepreneur you may travel to different events. You may go to the Prosper Show that we were out in March. You may go to arket a conference. You may go to Seller Con, whatever the case might be. Can you write those things off as an add back? And we collectively said yes. Because it's a personal choice of the owner, in most cases you can learn those things online but you're going for the camaraderie and it's helping with your business in some ways but it's not a required expense that carries forward to the new owner. And that's the most important thing; it's not an expense that carries forward to a new owner. Mark: Let's talk about that trade show example because I think that's a really good example where we can get in and show how understanding what gets added back and what doesn't get added back and be somewhat nuance. So let's take two different scenarios and start with…well we'll start with Rhodium we talked about them a bit and we like the guys in Rhodium quite a bit, it's a good community. I would go to that event just for the camaraderie and the networking alone without necessarily have any business…there's always a business interest with what we do but my main reason would be to go there for the camaraderie. Looking at Quiet Light Brokerage would that be considered an add back yes or no? Probably because we're not necessarily selling our services at that point but if we display a pub con, if we get a booth display there, we're making out to contacts would you consider that an add back? Joe: Well let me tell you, let me correct you if you will on Rhodium. When we go to Rhodium and we are sponsoring the event, so it's an expense to us, we stay in hotels, we have meals, we have entertainment, and we produce revenue from it because we build relationships with those people who then come to us to list the business for sale; and that produces revenue. So when you've got an expense that produces revenue it's not an add back; simple as that. But an example of someone going to Rhodium…a real example, someone went to Rhodium recently and her husband decided to go as well, didn't go to the events but was there and then they stayed an extra week and called that their honeymoon. Went on a helicopter ride that…all sorts of different things and it was a complete business expense and write off. Absolutely a write off, she can't tie a revenue to that expense. So it's an add back. There's always math and logic with these, sometimes the buyers are not going to see it the same exact way that the seller or the broker will see it but we don't push them. It's got to be crystal clear because and full disclosure because once you're under [inaudible 00:21:01.9] we don't want any surprises. An example that is not an add back that someone brought up they said well I'm using an ad agency to do all my Facebook advertising and I pay them 15% and I spend [inaudible 00:21:14.4] a thousand dollars a month. That's 150 dollars a month expense. I'd like to add that back because my logic is if the new owner has those…that experience that doesn't need that ad agency then they're not going to have the expense so it doesn't carry forward right? Well, no it's an expense that that ad agency spends money, it produces revenue, you can't…it's a big leap of math and logic. We don't know if that particular buyer has that experience or not. If they do, good for them it's a savings on their part but we can't add it back assuming everybody has that experience. Makes sense? Mark: Yeah absolutely. I think there's a common sense factor here and that is what we want to do is we want to look at the expenses that have been used for the normal operations of the business, so expenses that's been used for normal operations they stay. The elements that are outside of normal operations of the business those are the ones that are typically going to be added back, so personal benefits, those one-time expenses that'll be outside of normal operations because it's…it is part of normal operations but it's such a rare occurrence. We want to show buyers what's their expected ROI from this business if they were to acquire it. And so you can't…you have to have a common starting around and that's where you end up getting into the add backs and taking out those discretionary expenses. Joe: Yeah. Let's talk about one more sort of not black and white example just to talk about what you said which is common sense. So I listed a business last fall and the owner of the business really literally worked five hours a week. He had a full time person doing inventory planning things of that nature customer service…doing inventory planning and design and then he had someone that he had do customer service. That someone that he had do customer service was his brother and he paid him 30 dollars an hour for customer service work. The customer service work involved canned responses and canned responses and email canned responses in a pop up chat. He was grossly overpaid doing that kind of work, 30 dollars an hour. My advice at the time and you laughed at me and called me a Scrooge at one point [inaudible 00:23:24.5] was fire your brother. Okay, you're paying him way too much. I think the total amount that he might have been paying him was roughly 30,000 dollars a year. When in reality he was paying him too much money was paying him for hours that he didn't really work. So he should have fired his brother, hired somebody with half the cost, it made up the difference of 15,000. Let six months pass and he would have…his business when it was listed at 3 ½, so it would have 3 ½ times 15,000 dollars which would have been added to list price. He wasn't willing to be a Scrooge because that was just before the holidays. He didn't fire his brother. So we went with math and logic and we presented an adjustment in the add backs accounting for his brother going away. Mark: Okay. Joe: It wasn't ideal, it was a little gray but the math and the logic made sense and it worked. We had multiple offers under LOI closed with no issues with that add back mostly because it was right there in black and white and detail that talked about prior to the LOI. Mark: Right. So it does work the other way as well too. I've actually had the opposite scenario where somebody had a bunch of friends and family helping out in their business and they were grossly underpaid because they were doing favors. And he was like the Uncle Vido or someone like that was doing the books for almost no money whatsoever. And in that case would go the other direction and we would actually inject a cost into that P and L that will basically say hey they're here in a sweet heart rate that's not going to continue we need to see what this role is important but necessary and here's a pretty reasonable market rate for math and logic once again. Joe: Yeah, it's math and logic in there as well. Okay, I have a look at our time here Mark and where we are but a really really important thing for physical product owners is in the valuation of the business is the thing that put me to sleep in college. Literally, I fell asleep in the classroom and the new students came in and I was asleep in a classroom. It's accounting. Okay if you're driving pop a couple of no doze for this part but it is so vastly critical and this is critical for buyers and sellers. For buyers listen to this closely because if you find a broker that lists something that is growing like crazy, physical products business and they don't do accrual accounting or flipped it to accrual, you're getting that business at a discount because it should be accrual. When it's accrual the business is…it's the right way to do it first of all but the discretionary earnings is higher and the business is more valuable. Mark: Hold on accrual? What are you talking about here…we're just doing something excel at this point. So what is accrual and why is it so important? Joe: You're selling a widget, so let's say you're selling a widget for 10 dollars and your landed cost of goods sold on that widget is two dollars, 20% landed at your 3PL at your Amazon FDA. That's a cost of goods sold of 20% that…that's accrual so that when you sell that widget in the month of June that cost for that widget is applied to that month of June, so it's 20%. So your cost of goods sold…landed cost of goods sold shouldn't be roughly the same every month, month in and month out when it's accrual. If it's cash you're going to see that 20% go to 60%, 102% down to zero back up again to be all over and what it's going to look like on the bottom line discretionary earnings is that your earnings are all over the place; up and down, up and down and it's uncomfortable for buyers. The way that they look at these things and the way that we train them to look at these things is discretionary earnings and then have some working capital for inventory. When you purchase inventory moving up to 4th quarter, if you are cash basis and you're wrapping up inventory and normally you've got 50,000 dollars' worth of inventory but all of a sudden your stroking checks and you've got cash out of the 150,000 dollars that depresses your net income and your discretionary earnings and the value of your business if it's presented on a cash basis accounting. Does that make a little bit of more sense and not put you to sleep? Mark: Yeah, that does make more sense and what I would…the way I've explained it to some people as well is that when you move to accrual basis accounting it's kind of like going from a two dimensional picture to a three dimensional picture because it looks at your business and where its value is in all places. So instead of just taking cash out when as you said your 4th quarter you're stroking checks because you've got to stock up that inventory you're expecting a busy Christmas season so you're writing all sorts of checks out. Instead of saying okay I've just lost that much value of business, no you haven't lost much value you're just taking cash and converted it over to inventory. So accrual says hey you still have value in your business because you have all those inventory, you just exchanged cash for inventory. And then when you sell that product now you recognize the expense of that individual item. Joe: That's the key when you sell that product that's when you recognize the expense. And a good bookkeeper can set it up for you. And trust me if you spend a little bit of money a couple hundred, 300, 400 dollars a month on a good book keeper you will make that back multiple times over in the sale of your business because buyers will have more confidence. Brokers will be able to do a better valuation with less complexities and you won't pull your hair out during the valuation process. And I've seen people do that it's really-really hard to go back and do it. We do it more often than not we do it right Mark? We have to go back and flip it from cash to accrual then and I want to show you how to do that. So right now up on the screen, I've got a sample profit and loss station, a sample statement. Net income you can see there we're going to call it 425,000 dollars. Again, we've got an add back schedule below it for those listening here is some of the add backs; we've got interest expense that they had a loan, legal and professional fees for a patent for example or a trademark those are one-time expenses, meals, and entertainment, office expenses you work from home but you've got your kids' school supplies that you [inaudible 00:29:33.0] your business, your own payroll and I've got vehicle expenses here. So we take that 425,000 in net income plus the add backs on 120 and we're not at 545,000 in change in terms of discretionary earnings. So again you just say a three time multiple we added 360,000 in value to this business just for the add backs. But when you look at this gray line in the cost of goods sold the cost of goods sold as a percentage of total income goes as high as 97% and as low as 5%. It's all over the place. In the next screen, I'm going to flip it down so we know that that's cash because it's all over the place so here we flipped it from cash to accrual. Mark: So this is the same company? Joe: The same company this is the same exact P and L but within the Excel spreadsheet there was exported from Quick Books or Xero or in some cases produced, we've flipped the cash to accrual on the total cost of goods sold line only. We don't change those numbers in the cost of goods sold expenses the only thing that's changed is that total cost of goods sold line. You see sometimes those total doesn't add up to the individual things it's because we flipped it to accrual and we work with a formula on that. So there's more than one way to do almost anything but we work with the seller on calculating new accrual and we'll go into that in a minute but the key difference is when you look at this we went from cash to we were at 425,000 in net income right? Now we've flipped to accrual you look at that net income line that's jumped from 425 to 485,000 so we've added 60,000 dollars in discretionary earnings just by flipping it to accrual. Let me repeat that for those that are almost asleep because we're talking about accounting. By not producing any more revenue, by not hustling any harder, by not renegotiating cost of goods, by not doing anything other than good accounting we've increased the net income from 425 to 485. By you know proper accounting. Mark: [inaudible 00:31:45.6] the question is this dishonest in any way? Joe: No. It's the absolute right way to do it. It's standard acceptable accounting principles. The other way is the ready fire aim approach that unfortunately most of us take, me included because I didn't know any about Quick Books or accounting, I fell asleep in class, I never had a bookkeeper. This is actually the right way to do it. Mark: All right so that [inaudible 00:32:09.8] both cash and accrual are acceptable ways of filing your taxes and doing books. That gap does recognize both, however, accrual for a product space business is going to be more accurate and more thorough and so what you're saying is that the cash basis actually undervalues the business when you record your books in cash basis. Joe: If the business is growing rapidly absolutely because they're taking almost every expendable dollar that they have and putting it back in inventory. So an example is you know you and I talk about this valuation a lot, I had a client that went to every other brokerage firm. They really needed to sell their business because they had a house under contract contingent upon sale of their business. It was for an income they lived in New Zealand they had an Amazon US Business. They had to sell the business [inaudible 00:32:58.7] tough situation to be and a foolish situation to be in. They went to…got different valuations and every broker is trying to push that multiple high to help them achieve their goals. Too high for that 18-month old business, [inaudible 00:33:13.4] we did the proper accounting flipped, we did it in accrual. I was able to push that multiples down and other brokers like 3 ½ it was never going to happen. We were able to push it down to about 2.7 yet the value of their business was a couple hundred thousand dollars higher. So we had a higher value and a lower multiple more attractive to the seller more attractive to buyer. We had a buyer that was really good at accounting, really good entrepreneur, fully understood it, bought it, went through to do diligence, really happy. Both buyer and seller happy. So there's just huge value. Mark: This is actually really good I guess pro tip for people buying as well. If you come across an opportunity that's now with Quiet Light because we are going to almost always be pushing our clients simply in order to accrual in pretty much every circumstance for an e-commerce business. But if you come across an opportunity as a buyer and you see cash based books for an e-commerce business, take a look at the trend of the business. If that business is growing as you point out Joe the net…then the cash basis accounting is going to undervalue the business. On the other hand, though if that business is shrinking and they are not adding new inventory, they are going to have inflated or apparently inflated margins because they've stopped by an inventory, they've stopped recording expenses and you could actually end up over paying for a business if it's on the decline. So that cash basis accounting just for a product based business it's unreliable because of the fact that it doesn't take into account when the expense of the item when it's sold and so you really have to pay attention to the other aspects of the business such as this trend. Joe: Absolutely and you know cash basis accounting is okay for SaaS business and things that don't have accounts receivable…things of that nature. But for a physical products business accrual is the way to go. Buyers will be aware if it's cash especially as Mark said if it's declining buyers get excited. And it's growing unlike crazy as cash basis you buy it hold it for a year or two and then you do accrual based accounting and your value is instantly higher. So in this example again to move things along we've added 60,000 in discretionary earnings if by example we were at a three time multiple that's 120,000 dollars…I'm sorry 180,000 dollars added to the value of the business by not selling a single widget more. Really [inaudible 00:35:34.3] so how do you calculate accrual? It's really complicated, to be honest with you and you've got to have a good history and records to do it. Again, start with a good goalkeeper but the formula is simple beginning inventory plus purchases minus ending inventory that equals your cost of goods sold. And this should all be landed and this is ideally on a monthly basis. Now you can do it, right? If you haven't done it yet you can't do it. So what you got to do is go back in history and figure out what your cost of goods sold are with different formulations and calculations and it's different for each client that I work with. Absolutely doable I get two listings in the last two months where we had to do that and couldn't do this. I'll be honest with you most of the times we can't get to this. It's ideal if we can but more often than not we have to go with another method which is take all of those purchases take all of the shipping cost average out the shipping cost times the number of units that your shipping…it's complicated and I can't tell you exactly how it is because every situation is different. But that's the formula. The end result again when you put to accrual is a higher value. Again going back quick review before we put too many people to sleep with this your most valuable asset is more than likely your business. You should know what the value is within a certain range 10% I hope and then the question is okay I know how to calculate seller's discretionary earnings, the final thing is what kind of multiple range do I put on it? And what I've got here up on the screen is for physical products businesses and I'll talk about content businesses and SaaS businesses and so on so forth as well. So a larger business is more valuable and in what ways Mark? Mark: Large businesses are more valuable. And at today's podcast episode that actually launched today was on that very topic is buying big better than buying small, I'll go back and [inaudible 00:37:27.9] that one fun episode. Larger businesses are more valuable because they are more stable. You have more resources available to hire out work or to reinvest in the business. So generally speaking businesses that have higher earnings and higher revenues end up getting a multiple boost just because they are more stable and have more room for or investing in and changing the format of the business. Joe: Right and the other thing is odds are we've been around a little bit longer too or they have multiple streams of revenue balanced less…essentially they are less risky therefore they're worth more. So in the examples, I've got up on the screen and we'll talk about [inaudible 00:38:10.6] for listeners. If you have seller's discretionary earnings on a physical products business of less than 700,000 you're going to be in the 2 and I'm going to do a broad range 2 ½ to 3 ½ multiple range. So if your business is 100,000 dollars in discretionary earnings, the value big range 250 to 350 plus the landed cost of good saleable inventory on hand at the time of closing. Again as Mark said at the beginning we take all of those other factors, how many streams of revenue do you have. do you have any patents, how do you launch new products, do you have a big social media following that proves that your margins are done without discounts or advertising. All of those things come into play and could push a multiple higher or push it lower even below this 2 ½ times in the even when we do that client interview we do the valuation process, let's say that you have a patent infringement issue and it's still something that's scary and hanging out there. That might push the value down a little bit. Or if you're trends are going down that's definitely going to push the value down a little bit. So again, less than 700 in discretionary earnings 2 ½ to 3 times plus the landed cost of good saleable inventory on hand at the time of closing. When you get that bigger more valuable business with discretionary earnings that are north of 700 and again these are great numbers by the way again nothing here is in black and white but the value is going to be higher. Because it's more established, less risk that somebody is going to pay more because their money safer. That value range is going to jump instead of 2 ½ to 3 ½ you're going to go from 3 ½ to 4 ½ sometimes possibly higher. Mark: And if anyone is listening to this a few years down the road and have dug back in the Quiet Light Podcast archives and are now listening up. Multiples do change over the years as well. So this is where the market is at today and always check with us to see where multiples are if you're listening to this at a different time. Joe: Got it. SAS businesses. SAS businesses is in the last 12 months good ones that are trending well that have a reasonable [inaudible 00:40:14.7] and have a good handle on the metrics, I'm going to talk about that in the next episode, you're in the four to five time range. Content sites again and much of the same dollar ranges here. Content sites probably 2 ½ to 3 ½ times unless you're much larger. I've got one with multiple offers that's between four and five times because of the size of it and because of the growth. It's discretionary earnings are well north of a million dollars. Affiliate sites, same thing. The real separator here is I think the SaaS business because it's generally B2B recruiting revenue and the value is a generally higher at least felt…buyers feel as though they're worth more. Buyers are usually right no matter what Mark and I and the seller thinks. Buyers [inaudible 00:41:03.1]. Mark: And we're going to be doing another episode of talking about multiples and how do you determine the multiple of your business because that's a pretty complex valuation as well. Where there's literally dozens of factors I know I wrote a guide…I think it's on the website right now called The Ultimate Guide to Website Value. I wrote it three years ago. I think maybe four people have read the whole thing because it's long. It was around 30,000 words of all the different things that can really impact the value of a website. I should probably go back and update that because I'm sure there's some things in there that needed to be updated now, a few years later. But there are a lot of things that can influence that multiple up or down. Joe: Let's leave the listeners with this Mark and it's something that we talked about a little bit. If you look at your own values and your own assets, anybody that's listening and you own a business, think about the different things that you own: your bank account, your retirement portfolio, your house, your car. Do you know what the values of those are plus or minus 10%? You probably do but do you know the value of your business plus or minus 10%? You probably don't. Hopefully, this podcast will help a great deal. But even with all the information we've shared you really can't figure it out until you do a proper add back schedule and do all those details. I've had calls, we've had lengthy calls with buyers, we've gone through it all and if I…yeah on my values about 850 and then we get to P and L it turns out their value is at 1.2, really important to get the details down. Get a handle on it even if you don't plan to sell the business either ever or six or 12 or 18 months down the road. Mark: Very good well if you made it to the end of the episode here congratulations and we really appreciate you while listening in. I'd be interested in hearing feedback what do you think about episodes like this where it's Joe and I or maybe we'd bring Jason on or Chuck on again and we delve deep into some of the things that we do on a day to day basis. Are these helpful for you? Do you like them? Did I put you to sleep? Do they…are they things that you would want us to do more of? Let me know send me an email mark@quietlightbrokerage.com if you absolutely hate it then email Joe at joe@quietlightbrokerage.com. So anything left to…anything more to say here? Joe: No, that's it. It's a lot of information it's a bit overwhelming and just digest it. We'll have a link to this presentation in the show notes so people can download it. You'll get a little summary video of it as well that we can share [inaudible 00:43:32.2] can go through their own process. And then one more thing I guess yes I do have something. I have a client recently that I've been talking to for 18 months and you know I said: “What's the one takeaway after all we've gone through?” And she said “More than anything else if I could convey and share something with people that are trying to understand the value of the business and might sell it is don't be afraid to talk to a broker, get a valuation, figure out those things that you need to fix so that 12, 18 months down the road, the business is more valuable and you're prepared.” That's the key thing. Mark: Absolutely we do have resources on the site, articles that break down how to do a seller's discretionary earnings calculation. We'll link to those in the podcast show notes. So if you want to get deeper and couldn't follow along everything in this episode there are some articles that you can refer to which will be easy to follow as well. so thanks for listening and we will be talking again in a week. Links: PDF Version – How to Calculate the Value of Your Business
When it comes to buying internet businesses, is it better to buy big or buy small? Today we are chatting with Jeff Hunt of Own Optimize. Jeff has one of the largest web business portfolios we have come across here at Quiet Light. Through close to 60 transactions, he has owned a total of nearly 500 websites. These days Jeff spends his time working on his websites and educating others on how to buy internet businesses. After a career with IBM in the services business, a move overseas led Jeff to the internet where he started a real estate website. Despite a tech background, he didn't really know anything about websites when he started out. Soon he learned that buying them was much easier than making them and started to build his portfolio. Today we talk to him all about what to focus on once a website catches your interest. Episode Highlights: Start off on the right foot at the very beginning of the process. When buying a site, what you're really looking to buy is a quality website that you can grow and automate. Jeff's range of investment is typically sites valued at $50,000 and under. Of course Jeff experienced failure, 8 out of 10 of his sites didn't make it. He admits to being guilty of chasing too many things at once. Success for Jeff has come from a combination of buying and building. Making a smaller purchase is not always for financial reasons, it can be for a new buyer to explore whether or not they even like the business. When a buyer starts small they get an opportunity to learn the transaction process. Smaller websites can carry more risk. They may not have had enough time to grow. With large sites, you still have some leverage even if you come across hard times. Owning larger sites that garner larger revenue allow buyers to afford to hire a team. Before a purchase, study the heath of the business; the historical data, the ratios, and the percentages of cost that make up the total cost. The seller should have found the key to attracting new buyers and that knowledge can be passed onto the buyer. The buyer needs to really understand the business model and hone the process that the seller has achieved. Transcription: Mark: Joe, How are you? Joe: I'm good Mark, how you doing today? Mark: Good, good! I got to talk to another member from Rhodium Weekend, which is one of those events that we talk about a lot on this podcast, to talk to Jeff Hunt. Joe: I know. Jeff Hunt's a good guy. I think he's bought four hundred (400) businesses in his lifetime. Mark: Websites, a lot of these– yeah it's about forty (40) or fifty (50) transactions that he's done, so mostly some 50,000 dollar transactions. Joe: Pause, I said four hundred (400). Am I completely wrong? Mark: No, you're not completely wrong at all. So forty (40), fifty (50) transactions but whole of about 400 to 500 websites at all. Joe: Okay, got it! Mark: Yeah, can you imagine trying to manage that many sites? Joe: Absolutely not! –trouble doing my job here at Quiet Light that is an immense amount! Mark: Yeah, I know everyone recognizes you as a slacker. Joe: (laughs) Mark: So anyways, he's bought a lot of businesses, he's bought a lot of sites and he has a lot of experience on that. Now he's teaching people, he's got the website investor– the book that he wrote. And he talks about developing systems to buy sites, successfully. And he talks a lot about some of the mistakes he made along the way. What we talk about some due diligence, but also about this ongoing question: Is it better to buy small or buy big? Now what was better for you, what's– could've helped you avoid risk more and how's that changed from the years. He's got a lot of insights into due diligence that were fascinating and honestly, the interviews I've done, I kind of wish we would flip this one around because towards the interview, absolutely, really going to miss some good topics. Joe: It's interesting that the subject of should I buy a million dollar business for– or ten– how many thousand dollar businesses always comes up. And all we can do is thought from own experience and on what other people like Jeff have done. And I think, I've had Kevin Peterson on the upsell buying portfolio SAS business as he said– I think we've quoted him that it– it takes the same amount of work to run a million dollar business as it does a hundred thousand dollar business in some cases actually takes less because it's more established. And Jeff bought forty to– 5400 smaller sites, right? Mark: That's right. And we talked about that. I do think that running-a-large of business is often less work And I wrote an article on this, years ago, We have not been blogging for almost a year now because we've been focusing on the podcast but I did right an article on this rad. I went into the data actually to take a look at: What are the average number of hours that people are working on smaller sites versus larger sites. And what is the average number of staff and how does that correlate with revenues. Really some fascinating data in there, so excited. I got to transcend you deep dive there. So all in to that much show notes, anyone wants to do some further reading. But larger sites, they're often less work. And in some ways, that's risky because there's– you have more cash flow and we talked about that. If you have a business that's– that has twenty (20) thousand dollars of revenue and you lose a key client or you lose a key-traffic source when things get cut in half, you don't have but ten (10) thousand. Joe: Absolutely! That's why, just to say it so people hear it that the– the multiple's evaluation on these jump when your discretionary earnings is up that million dollar mark, you're going to jump significantly in terms of the over-all value not– obviously because of numbers but because the multiple actually jumps too, from a– let's say from a three (3) to four (4) for an instance. Mark: Yeah and I was talking to a potential client the other day who has a business who– it's multi-million dollars of revenue but the earnings are starting to have troubles and he said, “Would anyone buy this?”. And I explained to him that if a business has millions of dollars in revenue, even if it's struggling from an earning stand point, yeah, that's going to really negatively affect the business but this is probably still is soluble. But if you have a business that makes five (5) or ten (10) thousand dollars a year in gross revenues and isn't making any money probably not going to be sold. An orgs couldn't be very difficult to sell for anything of value, so can newly certain size? It's just more flexibility on the part of a buyer. Joe: Yeah! But Jeff has a different model in system and he's buying lots of smaller one's so he's doing something very, very right. Different than your blog couple of years ago, talked about so be real interesting series got to say. Mark: Yep, let's get to it. Alright, hey Jeff! Thanks for joining me. Jeff: Hey, it's great to be here, Mark. Mark: I know we know each other from a mutual group that were both part of. And people who have listened to the podcast before will be familiar with this group, at least you've heard of it before, and that's Rhodium Weekend. You and I have attended it from the past some years, right? Jeff: Yeah, love–met a lot of fantastic people–Rhodium is a good– as you know, it's a group of people either buying, or have already bought in to operate online businesses so it's kind of really unique crowd and be part of it. Mark: Yeah, if anybody wants an introduction 0:05:43.3 let me know, I'd be more than happy and of course, Chuck will surely be able to provide that as well. Chuck Mullins who works at Quiet Light Brokerage, introduced me to Rhodium. And really– Chris had actually stopped me, but really Chuck encouraged me to go. And it's been a good investment of our time and place. It's good group and I met you there few years ago. We talked at the conference and we've seen each other at conferences since then. I think the last time we met in person was Afilias somewhat last summer. Jeff: Yeah! That's right! And I met Chuck there I think the first time at Rhodium and I formed a number of partnerships there so it's a great group of people, it's your (0:06:22.0) way around the business that were in. Mark: Alright! So, let's start getting into little bit in the– as our listeners know, we usually love our guests introduce themselves. So if you want just give, just kind of quick background on who you are and what you do, that'll be really helpful. Jeff: Okay. Well, you know, I maybe one of your older guest– I don't know but if the white here kind of gets it away a little bit, I'm in my fifty's and I'm still on the website business so… Mark: Oh, my! Jeff: Kind of funny like the bunch together that we hangout or they're a little bit younger than I am but I give them a run through their money. I actually started out in the corporate world. Probably like a lot of people buy websites and I had a crew with IBM and I was in middle managements. I had a pretty lardge organization, people who were in to service this business. So, big companies with give us their I.T. departments to run so I had development organization, infrastructure guys, and a lot. And how to buy a budget of about twenty five (25) million dollars, at that time. It's kind of funny that even though I was kind of that technical business, I didn't know anything about the internet at all. And so my first introduction to the internet was actually I started a real estate business. So I moved overseas, left IBM, moved overseas, I started this real estate business and I realized it needed a website. And so, I kind of just dove in and I learned out to do all the websites, staff and crew website for this business. And then after that , I– you know, my eyes kind of got opened to the side of the all. Starting website really hard and so I started looking at as ways to buy them. And I started buying websites and over the last ten years I actually– I've done probably fifty (50) or sixty (60) transactions and about something like three hundred (300) websites, actually probably closed to the five now but while it does ring, big groups like networks of websites that did some more functions than those kind of things. So– Then along the way, I kind of wanted to leverage some of my assets. One of my assets was just– I have been doing this for a while and you know, having my fingers and all kinds of online businesses and different business models across all the sites. And so I wrote a book called The Website Ambassador and then I've done courses on website investing and some networking like at Rhodium and other places and stuff. I really enjoyed this– I just love– I really love almost everything about online businesses. And just the lifestyle part of it but really like the analytical part of it, the marketing component and operations component. Component is just– is just low fun. So that's my story. Mark: So– I'm sorry, you said three hundred (300) and four hundred (400) websites in total? Maybe more? Jeff: Yeah! Like one of my purchases is something like two hundred and fifty (250) websites that were– I can't even read the domain names. They were German and French. And there were these affiliate websites selling Amazon FiliA products and to Amazon Germany and Amazon France. And I ran with those for couple of years some of them died off and then I sold them. Mark: Oh, okay. How in the world do you begin to even manage that many sites? Jeff: Yeah, well–you know, that's one of the many mistakes that I've made I think in the course of my website career is buying too many and chasing too many ideas that looks really interesting like– it's probably happen to you. Maybe it hasn't happen to you though like I see these things and I think “Woah! That's a very unique business modeling and that's really cool. I like to learn more about it and pick it up. Like uncharmed by those particular sites, actually those who're kind of template sites and so there was a lot of automation. There were programs that could make the same update to, ten's, twenty. Sometimes more sites at a time. So that's how we managed them. Mark: Okay, That makes a little bit more sense. Now when you say that you've been buying all these websites, we don't have to talk specific dollar amounts but who are we talking about larger sites, smaller sites, what's the range that you really been investing in. Jeff: Well I've bought in– again maybe this is something I would do differently for starting over again but most of my sites for sub- fifty thousand dollars only handful of that amount, just a lot of them as like mentioned. And I've done kind of a combination of buying and then building and typically for me the cycle's ban or buy something that I don't really know that much about like I started out with Google news approved sites and merely day so I bought a dozen different news site over time but then after a while after a year or two into that, I really understood that news business borrowed so it was very easy for me to actually create my own news websites and then go from there and I've done some more things. For example Mozilla site– so one of the reasons that we buy is because were learning something, were picking up. Were kind of learning from something that's already working. And then later on if you want to add to it by building from scratch, that's kind of a logical sequence for me. Mark: Yeah, alright, let's dive in to that topic a little bit because we get that–this question a lot from potential buyers, especially first time buyers. People that might become mean and in. They know that they want to get in to the website business or some sort of online business, they're coming from the corporate business world like you did and they might have good enough money to do a larger deal but their wonder, is that the right thing to do? And I think you might have touched a viewpoints here which might be interesting. let's talk about, specifically, let's just start with the benefits, binds small to start. You've done a lot of bind small sites and smaller sites. What were some of the big benefits that you've gotten from that and then maybe later on we can move in to some of the drawbacks from that. Jeff: Okay, yeah! That sounds great! And one of the first things that I say when I get that question by big or small is: Whatever you buy, it needs to be a good quality so it needs to be something that's very stable no matter how big or small it is. So, kind of get to your specific question, what are the benefits of buying small, first the obvious one is that you're risking less capital and for many people, that's important, especially when they don't have that experience that leads to the confidence to something bigger. So that's kind of important. And many people are running to ask me that question and it doesn't even matter what their capacity is. Some of them have a capacity in capital to buy very very large websites, multi-million dollar websites. They still don't want to do it. They want to spend five (5) thousand or twenty five (25) thousand or something like that and the reason is because it gives them the, yeah. One of the things that they think about necessarily is they don't even know what it's like to be a website owner. So it isn't just the risk of the money but they're not even sure that they'll enjoy the– be and stay which is being the owner and upper of your website. So that's one thing that binds small can do. Kind of give them a taste, what it's like. And then secondly it gives them an exercise of the transaction process. That's as you know, the transaction process is quite different from very small sites than from a large one but at least they're going through the steps of– during the evaluation, looking, evaluating, waiting, executing a transaction, setting up the accounts, perhaps hiring the team, and all of those kinds of stuff. And then some basic things that if you've never been on the website business, you've never done before like giving hosting setup and domain ownership and some of those basic things. So that's kind of the value. And the other thing is that, whereas the dynamics and management of large versus small can be quite different some of the basics in terms of the actual business models behind the sites are actually quite similar. So the content website monetized by advertising is very similar too. Whether it's big or small. Just the mechanism and process you put around that are different. So if you're unfamiliar with the business model, you can pick up some familiarity from buying a smaller site. Mark: So, you said that I think it's a key point here, and that is bind for education. And bind small for education is something that you've done quite a bit, in where you bought, you've learned in this industry a net shore, a style of online business. And I've been able to use that as an education, they will build your own as well. I talked to buyers a lot about their first purchase and an advice to buy smaller if they want to get that education set, understanding that, can you talk about that a little bit more how you've used buying small to be able to learn more about the nature, about the business style? Jeff: Yeah, that's excellent accredit in general sense education and one of the ways that we educate our self is through relationships and at working and so really, the important part when you buy a site is the relationship that you have with the seller and those have been valuable to me. I meet so many really , really instructional, educational relationships, from sellers who– and that starts with setting at the relationship– setting off at the right flow with the relationship at the very very beginning on the process. But many of the sites I bought I got really good coaching, I have relationships to this day with people that I bought sites from eight (8) years ago who were entrepreneurs, they figured something out. Most– as you know, most business is fail. Very high percentage of business is fail, off line or online. And even at higher percentage of online business is fail, been off. And I think it's just because more people try at the online business but when you have any site that's been around for a while and it's kind of built up a following and so on, is one that hasn't fail or at least not yet. And so the entrepreneurs who're able to do that and figure that out, a lot of times, they know things that you want to know from them so the key thing is actually learning what has been built, what the process is, that they use to attract customers and we'll probably talk more about that later. I hope we could. Mark: Yeah, I'll get you to talk about whatever you think will be worth talking about. I do want to talk a little bit about the differences though on bind big versus small. You mentioned in there one of the benefits to bind small is you're obviously risking what's capital. And I would completely agree with that. I mean, it's pretty obvious, if you're buying a million dollar site to buy in a ten (10) thousand dollar site, there's significantly less at stake. When I tell buyers to buy small, initially, often times I'd tell them that and say, you know, be prepared for a little bit higher risk profile. And in my experience in– feel free to disagree with this , that's in my experience buying small often comes with a little higher level of risk. I know you said you have to buy quality. What's been your experience as far as the quality businesses that you bought in this small range? Jeff: I totally agree with you and the reason that buying small carries more risk is because most smaller websites don't have the same age. They don't have the same momentum they haven't necessarily withstood the test of time. And what that really means is, in the internet business they change really fast so new competitors enter the space, there's changes in technology, changes in software, and most importantly there's changes unlike the big players like Facebook, Google and the like. And they're making policy changes and all those things, so when you buy a smaller site, in most cases, they may be successful, cause they're flying under a radar of sorts and they haven't been around long enough to see the change from desktop to mobile or from easily making Facebook ad purchases to a more competitive environment, faced to capture all those things, so as a result, the lower in sites is almost always more risky. Now obviously, you can mitigate the risk the longer you look but sometimes it takes a really long time to find the site that's– that has true stability. That's still kind of that low end so, yeah, that's right. So my experience with that, that answers a specific question is that I've failed a lot of times. Probably, my early sites that I bought, I bet you eight (8) out of ten (10) just didn't make it. Either they didn't pay for themselves and some of them might've made almost no money, most of them made some money but not nearly what I wanted and then they kind of take her off. It's hard. Mark: I found as well what larger sites having that extra cushion more discretionary earnings and more revenue, gives you a lot more ability to, not to make a mistake and absorb it. With the small site, if it's only generating twenty (20), thirty (30) thousand dollar per year, if it loses a major source of traffic, all of a sudden that twenty (20), thirty (30) thousand will go down to five (5). And now, all of a sudden you're questioning why I'm even doing this anymore. Where, you were as a few–you have a business's doing five hundred (500) thousand dollars a year and discretionary earnings and it gets hit hard. You're still probably making six (6) figures and have some leverage that are to be able to– may buy yourself out of this situation or fund what needs to be fixed Maybe place that better or so, there's a little bit of subordinate there. Workload as well, I mean– I've found in your website, in some sense, I found that with larger sites, sometimes that workload can actually be less because you can afford the higher people, where as with other site that's kind of on the edge. And I ran into this with my first company actually that I owned, I got it to a hundred twenty(220) thousand dollars in revenue and really I needed to hire people but I needed all the money. I was getting so– I couldn't really afford six months of that financial hit. What's been your experience with that? With dealing with casuals and maybe the freedoms that casuals would– of a large business would bring you? Jeff: My experience is exactly what you said where– and in fact I have websites right now where I'm forced to do things that I really shouldn't be doing, I should be spending my time thinking about the strategy, looking in for competition, time plotting on a road map, and in managing people on. And some sites is just aren't making enough money for me to hire someone to do that on month you have. So that's absolutely right, that when you get that, and you know– as I mentioned I– that there were intersections and that I've done everything where I sweep the floor myself, so I kind of gone the whole gimmick and certainly when you have a team then it really freeze you up to use your mind in a different way and that's a lot of fun if that's kind of where your skills are, what you want to do. So definitely not to big advantage of buying big. Mark: Alright, so you have done– how you told me at the beginning, I didn't worry about, how many transactions again, estimated? Jeff: Only sixty (60). Mark: Alright, that's a ton! I mean quite label with more or less than a thousand for ten years, that's with lots and lots of buyers and sellers. Sixty (60) percent is a lot. I'm going to put you on the spot and if you don't have an answer for this please just ignore it. I'm curious, what's one of the craziest thing that you can share that you've ran across in your process of buying sites? Jeff: Well. you know, I've ran across more than I– there's some crazy one's I've ran cross that I haven't bought. But there's several of them, one of them that I talk about in my book is– I found this site that– I had a hard time finding out what product is sold but it was insanely profitable like nine (9) percent profit margins but it was an E-commerce site. So it was a hard physical good and when I looked into it carefully, what they were selling was a urine. Laboratory processed urine for people who're trying to pass drug tests. And so they said, after I finally understood exactly what their product was, I understood why it was hard for me to understand, because they didn't want to like, advertise it too much that they had to do it enough to be on the safe side. Mark: There you go. One of the first clients I took on was selling poppy flowers and they were selling them for couple rearrangements, I may be naive. I had no idea that they were used for opium as well. And I had one person tell me, one buyer was like, “So are you okay with selling drugs?” I'm like, “What? What are you talking about?” Ends up, they were not, but there is people buying the poppies. At least my theory at probably buying the poppies thinking that they were buying drugs. They're probably just get stomach ache. Jeff: Alright, well, you know, that's interesting you bring that up because it's an example of one of the subtle eficlosures and we ran into this issues a lot in this business crossly, even for sites that you would think don't really have controversy around them. We ran into this kind of things. So it's one thing that buyers should be aware of. Mark: Let's (0:23:21.2) to that because you've got your course to write your book as well. Your course is at website investor.com? Is that right? Jeff: Yeah, ownoptimize.com is a good place right now. Mark: ownoptimize.com, Okay. Jeff: Yeah! Mark: We'll link to that in the troll notes so just go over to our website and look in the troll notes for the course, the online course. Let's talk about some of the lessons that you teach in this course. Obviously, we'll keep the best secrets for the courses. So– but, what are some of the things that you try and teach buyers who are taking your course? Jeff: Well, one of this– I don't want to over simplify and this may just sound too simple but one of the biggest mistakes I think that new buyers make is they don't just look at the graphs. And it's amazing what this simple graphs can tell you, the direction of the traffic, and the direction of the financial, those two simple things are really, really important. And a lot of times when you look at a graph, let's say twelve (12) month graph and it's– you can kin od tell visually that it's down or gently downwards sloping, but in truth it may actually be like twelve (12) or twenty (20) percent downward sloping and if you just extrapolate that into the future– I mean, business is going to be worth nothing in just a few years and so I think people tend to have an optimistic view when they look at numbers and sometimes they realize that their businesses that are losing money overtime and they feel like the moment that they buy this site, it's going to stop losing money, it's going to start– it's going to be flat or go up from there and there's no real reason to think that. So that's kind of really simple but that's a way that you can dismiss a lot of sites unless you have really specific knowledge about why it's going down and a very specific idea about how you can turn it around. Now we can talk about that way or two because a lot of people– that's hard to really know for sure. So then you need is just to stay away from those kinds of sites so we need to look–. So overall, key thing is you look at the graphs, if it's a stable business, you're looking for a stable business because the most important thing is– I kind of teach a risk-based methodology but for valuation and also for valuation-selection websites so for me, real core thing is you're looking for the engine for customer acquisition and you can– all kinds of sites she can evaluate, usually the successful ones. The owner, the creator, has found a way to systematically attract new clients and if it's a content site and the client is website visitor or if it's a services site, a client, whatever it is. And that process–whatever the process is, it might be toasting the Facebook every day, it might be buying Google ad words, ads, it might be just content creation regimen, it might be a product launch, philosophy on Amazon like these kinds of steps, I'd choose these kinds of products, I'd brand them in this way, I'd quadrant them in this way. And the process may be –it may not be like mind blowing in terms of what it actually is, but it might just be very consistent and perhaps complex and blast. and whatever that process is, it's that– is that engine it drives the site, that's really what you're buying because if you can get your mind around it and understand what it is that they're doing that attracts these customers consistently and then you can start envisioning how you would do that yourself and perhaps, how you would scale it, how you would tweak it to enhance it, then that's kind of the whole agree, So you want a process like that but you feel like doesn't have a hauls or gas in it, like you can see why it's working and how it's working and you get your head around that then you know the business model and then if it's historically if it's a cheap pretty solid results, consistent results, there's always going to be pivoting and changing strategies and so on but you get a model like that, that's kind of what you really want to buy, to probably grow what you're trying to buy as a buyer so that's kind of a key thing and then there's all kinds of methodology around you, valuation. We look like — there's like several dozen things you can evaluate that there's content and ownership and reasons people are selling and the financials and branding, legal aspects–all, all those kinds of things that you want to look at but the core thing is that how do they get their customers and what's the risk profile on this side. Mark: So how do you– how do you, work for– so that's really, really good advice, understanding the customer journey from beginning– from top of funnel, just awareness of the site that you're looking at down to the actual acquisition of the client. Right? How do you handle that insane environment like Amazon or were dealing with all the market places or even with– I guess with E-commerce, you do have a customer journey but have you worked much with Amazon to see how you would evaluate that? Jeff: Well, no, I don't have a lot of very specific experience with Amazon but I can tell you that– Amazon FBA is actually a very sophisticated business because there are so many elements of it and you have to do each of them quite well, actually. That's one of those cases were it's not just a simple three (3) or four (4) silver bullets and you win. It's like the people who do Amazon FBA well, do a lot of things well. They do product selection very well. Niche selection first, product selection well, then they understand the launch process like putting the right brand on their product and giving those initial reviews. And they understand the inventory process. They don't have cash problems with having generating a man and then having nothing to sell to people. Then they have to understand the operational aspects too like how do they wants making sales, how they actually get the product out and in a good way and then servicing the customers later on and answering their questions from there, just get a review and so it's really kind– it's a complex process so the– what I just said earlier about what's the engine behind it, well in that case, the engine is, are there good SOP's, is there a good team, is there like –what's kind of the new ones that has a loud– like some people, super good at branding and they're super good at that product launch process in Amazon and so that's kind of what's giving them the edge over the competition and other people were good with analytics and numbers and ratios and shipping cost, cost of good sold to whatever they're spending on customer service and all that kind of stuff. Which that's all fine but it's kind of that it's up front-end that's probably more important in Amazons like how they're interacting with the customer. Mark: Well this is why it's so important for pre-sellers to document their processes because a lot of this stuff is done almost from a skills like that is developed over years. Having those processes, documented, the stuff that you're doing on day-to-day basis helps buyers like you, Jeff or any of the buyers out there understand what's going on and try to sum it– that is as well. I want to go back about what you said about graphs because that really caught my attention. I–I'm with you on that. I love graphs. I think visualizing data, specifically the financial data is something people don't do enough. And I might geek out a little bit here, and save my finger craft that I used when I'm evaluating business myself, is year over year analysis that I like to look at both the revenue and to those gross profit. Definitely take a look at that if you're able to, if it's done on cruel basis. My discretionary earnings, it was a year-over-year because it soothes out some of the seasonality that you're naturally going to have in pretty much every business (0:31:12.3) has, even a little bit of seasonality. Is there a better–like a favorite approach or favorite sort of graph that you would recommend or any other piece of geo that you would look at to say, “Hey! Here's kind of a peak into the future or maybe what the drafts of help of these businesses” Jeff: First of all, I love year-over-year analysis too when you have a business that has enough historical data out there to be able to do that, and that's really, really helpful. But in terms of adding to that, for me, one of the important things is ratios and if you have a numbers degree, whether it's finance or accounting, whatever they teach you about that. But actually it's simpler than– you don't have to learn what you do in school. What it is, is your looking for things like the percentages of the cost that make up the total cost of the product or the service and a lot of times you can find problems where, for a few months, shipping was a lot of money or cost of product or cost advertising is a lot of money and then there's–and then some of those cost drop-off where the ratio changes, the percentage change radically. And for me, those are kind of– a lot of people are afraid of financial analysis in funnels but actually, we understand that what you're looking for is kind of that stability in the business and then a little– the flags or things that changes in the ratios, changes– the peaks and valleys in the chart. And is there good explanation for those peaks and valleys. Peaks and valleys are just fine. The only concern is what are the reasons behind those peaks and valleys and sometimes, for example, sellers, so they really have– they may not have any idea why they're getting more customers or any idea why they lost customers. And the big problem with that is that when you buy the site and something happens, you're not going to be able to get those customer back if you don't know the reasons for those things. So some of the tools and things that I look at. And also just say, they kind of end in the evaluation stage and stay on in due-diligence stage. One of most important tools for new buyers is to compare different sources of information, just in the content, for example, a lot of times, you'll have analytics reports then you have your ad network reports and sometimes you have bank statements, you have taxes, you have– you actually, a lot of times have a lot of different sources for very similar information and it's important to kind of compare those sources together to see if something's missing, something's kind of wack. And it kind of really helping, so in E-commerce is same thing, where a lot of times you'll have traffic and saying why I'm getting this many sales, repay-dues and then you have shopping cart software on your website, you have merchant processors who have similar data and then whatever is in half-thing in your back account and all of those things that's lying out. So , there's actually some, pretty simple tools, once your kind of aware them to take the mystique off of what're people are a little bit concerned about when they first enter business. Mark: Wow! there's– I kind of always restarted with this, rather than buy a big verse and buy a small sort of conversation that is a lot of details you get in to hear, but we are up against clock a little bit here. I think this idea of understanding the customer journey, understanding how they become customers, and the process they're involved there both can help any buyer understand how healthy a business is and how new was or how specialized they're going to have to be in their–works with that business but also potentially uncover some opportunities if there's leakage, for example in that customer journey wherein you're losing a lot of people at a certain step maybe they are taking advantage of cart abandonment technologies or maybe they don't have a good e-mail automation. Well these are opportunities that might be available for buyers. And then also this idea of looking at ratios; really, really solid advice. Jeff: Yeah, the ratios– what I will do again when I'm evaluating business is I'll look at cost of good sold– gross profits were the first things I will look at. Is that ratio staying healthy because you don't want a business where that's getting squeezed up at time or at least you need to understand that. But also you compare advertising to total revenue are you having to spend more just to keep the same revenue? Or has that owner adjusted another area so maybe they're spending more but cutting back on staff–But to make the bottom line look healthy but ,maybe lying underneath there's a few issues that you have to be aware of. Mark: I would love to sit and talk for a couple of hours because I think we could talk for a couple of hours. So, maybe what we'll do is we'll have you on again in the future and we can continue the conversation. In the meantime where can people learn more about you? Jeff: I've a website called “HeckYeah.org” and then “OwnOptimize.com” is where I'm selling my courses right now. So those are the two places. And yes Mark, I would love to– this is one of my favorite topics really is this idea. First time buyers, second, third time buyers; what are the questions that they have, which they look for and as you said, lots of things we could talk about. We're just barely scratching the surface so I'd love to come back and talk some more about it. Mark: Cool! Hey Jeff, thanks for coming on. Really appreciate you coming on and well, stay in touch. Jeff: Yeah, sounds good, great. Thanks a lot for having me. Links and Resources: Jeff's Website Jeff's Course The Website Investor
Who Is Going To Stay With You Through Cancer Listen, I don't know about you, but for me, honesty has become such a rare commodity these days because it's so hard to accomplish - you have to set aside your ego, you have to put your worries aside about how other people see you, but it also gives you this incredible power of clarity. Honest - that is how I would describe Matt Featherstone, our guest today. Matt is for real. Matt doesn't screw around. He takes his honesty and he turns it into insight, into how you can shift your focus during cancer, into how you can manage your energy. Who is going to stay with you through cancer? Matt is going to share some fantastic advice for dealing with cancer, including: How some people in your life fall away just when you need them most Why Matt's little c reframe can help put cancer in its place How the modality of cancer scares people off 3 things that are inherently different about men facing cancer Setting the rules up to deal with cancer as a family The importance of peer support during these tough times Matt's top lessons learned about dealing with cancer Who is going to stay with you through cancer Links Cancer Connect Men's Psycho-social needs Webinar Matt Featherstone (Cancer Council) Episode 008: Staying Positive Despite Cancer Full Transcript Joe: Matt, thank you so much for doing this, and I'm really looking forward to this. Matt: Yes, very happy to help. It's a worthy cause. Joe: Yes, absolutely. First, I want to ask, how did you react when you first found out that you had cancer? Matt: Yes, I remember it distinctly, it's one of those big life events, isn't it? I suppose I was very similar to many blokes. We've got 19 things going on in our heads at once, and I got a call from my GP and I remember coming into the office and actually in the office with my wife, and saying, “Sweetie, I've got some bad news, we'd better put aside some time to talk.” I didn't drop everything. I think it took me quite some time that evening before I even stopped work and went into the other office and said, “Look, we've got a problem that's got nothing to do with the business, we've got a problem here.” I guess the short answer is, I was a bit numb, actually, I wasn't expecting it. I think it was, as I say, quite some hours, then, of course, seeing her face really made a very big difference to my evening. We literally turned the entire office off and just went and sat down and had a cup of coffee and went, “Well, we weren't expecting that, what are we going to do?” It was a bit of a shock. Joe: Yes, exactly, like you said, I felt shocked, I felt numb, and I felt the whole world stopped and came to a close, like everything slowed down. The whole sound was muffled. It was just a really bizarre feeling because it's unexpected, right. Matt: It is, it's a very unusual experience. I suppose one of the positive things is, Joe, that since then, I guess like most people, we've had other things that have happened out of left field, not expecting them. Sometimes it's nothing to do with health but just things in the family. I must admit, we, as a family unit, now we're better at taking unexpected bad news and doing something with it than we were before. There was an upside. Joe: Yes, absolutely. That's a positive take on it, Matt. I think that's because you're confronted with it, you're forced to deal with it. You have to find a way. Matt: Yes, that's right. You're exactly right, Joe. It's almost like there's a moment now that you can't go back on. The die is cast, and you need to do something. You're right. It's a very specific type of life event that you've just got to deal with in a sense, yes, you're right. Joe: Absolutely. Your family, your friends,
This Frontsider panel episode explores what virtues go into making quality software, such as having tests, making sure software is performant and accessible, and why you should try to avoid technical debt. Transcript: CHARLES: Hello everybody and welcome to The Frontside Podcast Episode 98. My name is Charles Lowell, developer here at The Frontside and your podcast host-in-training. With me today, we're going to have a round table, a Frontside round table. With me today is Elrick. ELRICK: Hey. CHARLES: Joe. JOE: How you doing? CHARLES: And of course, Will. WIL: Hello, hello. CHARLES: Welcome, y'all. We're going to be talking today about some of the things that we do around here, aside from trimming the shrubs and making coffee and snacking on Altoids. Like, way too many of them. Yeah. I was thinking we could talk a little bit about software qualities of relative things, like this software has these qualities. And I think that that kind of lofty goal of software quality is comprised of having a bunch of little qualities. The quality of having fewer bugs or the quality of having these things. And so, talking about all these things that we do and kind of what we do to make sure that we continue to do them. Or the ways that we can ensure that our software has these things. So yeah, we can just start really anywhere. WIL: Yeah. So, one core thing is obviously tests. CHARLES: That kind of falls under we want to have – really, there's two qualities there that we want, right? Is we want to have… WIL: Maintainable software. CHARLES: We want it to be maintainable. We want it to be resilient to change. And we want it to work properly, right? Yeah, so we put tests in place to make sure that that happens. JOE: Tests also inform design in a really positive way. A lot of the time, anyway. WIL: Another thing that we like to include in our apps is responsiveness. CHARLES: Yeah. And just making sure that you have – that it works on a multiplicity of devices, right? WIL: Yeah. And not just the devices, but browsers as well. CHARLES: Yeah. And it turns out it's actually really hard to do that after the fact. WIL: Right. JOE: Yeah. CHARLES: Making sure that lots of browsers, lots of devices. Because yeah, sometimes you have some weird screen width that is on some weird device, and making sure that that works. I guess there's some overlap with testing there, too, isn't it, right? Like you want to be running your tests on those devices at those resolutions to make sure that they're going to work. This is something that we aspire to but I don't think we're quite there yet. It was making sure that our applications are accessible. WIL: Yeah. JOE: I'm very excited to learn more about this as we get into this, yeah. CHARLES: Right, right. And asking the question, how is it that we actually can ensure our applications are accessible? We have very paved roads for making sure that our applications are resilient to change and that they have low bug rates and that they're well-designed via testing. But what is the analog of testing for accessibility? What's the way that you can put those guardrails in for accessibility? I have no idea. And that's an ongoing conversation here at Frontside. JOE: So, I guess I'm curious as to what technologies are actually involved in accessing a web application in – would it be reasonable to say a non-traditional way? I know there's such things as screen readers, but is that all we're talking about? Or what is the ecosystem that we have to consider supporting? CHARLES: I'm certainly not an expert on this. We'd have to get Rob in here to chew our ears off this. JOE: Yes. CHARLES: But from what I've picked up from him and from our conventions with Marcy Sutton and some other folks that we've had on the podcast, it's a big umbrella. So, it's anyone using an application in a non-traditional way. So, whether that can have to do with limited vision, hearing, movement, range of movement, cognitive ability, it's a gigantic whale of a domain. WIL: Yeah. The topic of accessibility can definitely be several podcasts on its own. CHARLES: Yeah. One thing that we've talked about is it would be great if you could drive your test suite through a screen reader or something like that. What would that even look like? There are a couple of open source ones out there, but they're Windows-only. I think it was NVDA was the big one. And then you have a screen reader that then drives the applications in your operating system, so it's going to vary per operating system. So, making sure that it's accessible on Windows, at least as I understand it, is very different from making sure that it's accessible on a Mac. JOE: Yeah, it's like a whole other layer. And it's like BrowserStack outside of the browser. CHARLES: Right. WIL: There are things that you can do from the beginning that will make it easier when you get to that point. It's just like using semantic HTML, knowing when and how to use proper aria labels. All these things, if you do it from the beginning, it's not as big of a task as bolting it on afterwards. CHARLES: Right. And I think we do have a leg up when it comes to web applications. It's within our power to change. There are cross-platform of those technologies. But as you said, it's important to put them in from the beginning. Because as we've seen, for each one of those categories, you're accumulating debt if you don't address it. So, there's technical debt. But I think that technical debt can [inaudible] into a bunch of different areas. So, there's technical debt in terms of the internal quality of your architecture, the way your software components talk to each other. And I think that that's what people mostly think of when they talk about technical debt. But I think in terms of responsiveness debt, there's a slice of the technical debt pie that has to do with making your application responsive. And so, if you don't address making your application responsive, you're accumulating debt and you might not know it. And if you're not making your application accessible, then from the beginning you're accumulating debt. So that if you have to go and try and figure out your accessibility story six months, a year, two years, you might actually uncover and say, “Whoops. I've been swiping the accessibility credit card. And holy crap, with all this. All my fines and penalties and compounded interest. Now I'm accessibility bankrupt.” And that can be scary, right? WIL: Yeah. And a lot of people don't realize with all this debt after the fact is they think they're going in and adding things like responsiveness and accessibility and tests. But really, you're also taking away previous work that's already there, things that need to be refactored. If you put these things off, you're not just adding a few hours of time. You're inflating your time exponentially. CHARLES: Right. Right, exactly. It can be intimidating but I think it's also empowering, because technical debt is like a scary subject. But if you're like, “Oh, we can actually slice our technical debt into a bunch of different categories and address them individually,” just knowing that this is an area where debt can accumulate, that's half the battle. Because the worst thing is debt you don't even see. ELRICK: Yeah. WIL: I mean, [inaudible] is big. That's a big part of accessibility, that, is most people don't think of accessibility. So, that is a huge debt that a lot of companies don't see. JOE: What about something like internationalization where I feel like I've never been in an application where that wasn't punted on to some degree. That's kind of a well-known problem, but it still takes a back burner. Do you think that if accessibility had more exposure as a concern, would it actually get the attention it deserves or is it kind of destined to, “Oh, we'll get to those yaml files later. We'll send those off for translation later,” that type of thing. ELRICK: I don't know. Sometimes I feel as though people feel as though they're trading speed away when they're building applications when they go to implement these things. Like, “Okay, well we're not really going to touch on these right now because that's going to slow us down from pushing out features.” Which is not really true. Because if you don't settle on these things early, you're not really building a solid foundation for your application in the long haul. So, I think people are like, “Oh, we'll just do it later.” CHARLES: Right. ELRICK: And, “We'll just ship features now.” CHARLES: Right. I think that's exactly right. It has this kind of secondary effect where not only do you develop the debt but you develop a culture of accumulating debt, right? Like when it comes to people getting a hold of their finances, the first thing that they have to change is they have to change their spending habits. And that can be the hardest thing. It's not just balancing the equation. It's like saying, “I need to readjust my thinking about this.” ELRICK: Yup. CHARLES: So that I'm not consistently put in this situation again. JOE: So, there's an operative word there, right, in personal finance in that usually if a company is addressing technical debt especially down the road, something that they've punted on for a while, it's far from personal. There's a board of directors or there's a special interest group involved. There's people who want features that are putting money into it. There's a lot of pressure as the company grows and more people are involved. Priorities are more likely to be lost, I guess. CHARLES: Are you saying it can be hard when your culture is spread over that many people, it can be hard to shift? JOE: Absolutely, yeah. And I guess to keep with the dash-first thing, ideally were we starting a company, we would want to start a culture for this company. A culture that recognizes the vulnerability that we all have to technical debt as applications grow. We want that upfront. But the reality is, you know, startups are eager to get things out. Companies that have been around for a long time have high-paying clients that they depend on that want certain things. And yeah, I guess I'm just saying that it has to come in from the beginning. CHARLES: Yeah. And I think that – I don't want to completely disparage technical debt entirely, because technical debt like actual debt, like financial debt, is a powerful tool that you can wield. But it's also, it's like a table saw. You can also easily slice your finger off. It doesn't mean that it's not a useful tool, right? If anyone's bought a house, it's really great that you can borrow money to buy a house. It's great that businesses can borrow money and get small business loans to get bootstrapped. And that benefits us all to have that community. I don't think that – yeah, startups definitely, they need to have technical debt as a tool that's available to them. But they just need to understand the consequences of it and be able to get a hold on it. JOE: That's a super interesting take. I never considered it that way before. CHARLES: Yeah. It's definitely not my take. I actually think the person who coined the term ‘technical debt', that was the original idea. But then people realized that technical debt can also get way out of hand. WIL: It's just like real debt. If you're not paying down a certain amount every so often, it's going to keep growing. CHARLES: Yup. You're going to have to declare bankruptcy at some point and throw out the piece of software if you don't pay a down. And that's going to be more expensive. ELRICK: Yup. That's definitely true. So, I have a question. And we see this all the time repeating itself at various companies, whether it's a startup, a large company, where they put off testing and mobile-first, user-first, accessibility-first. Like all the firsts, they just toss it to the side. Why do you all think that that happens so frequently? CHARLES: I think it comes into people not understanding that if you don't address it from the start, it won't happen naturally. There is a prime motivator that has to happen. If you don't imbue something with those qualities when it's tiny, when it's a tiny seed, a tiny crystal, you're going to have to drill through layers and layers and layers of core to put it at the crystal to begin with. I like to think of software as kind of like a tree. And we eat the fruit of the tree, and that's the features that users use. And we can tell that a fruit is delicious merely by placing it in our mouths. And we can tell what fruit is bad. But we can't really look at the fruit itself to say what caused this fruit to be good, what caused this fruit to be bad. We have to look at the tree. And I think that that's what people miss when they're developing software, is that what you really want to do is you want to build a tree that builds good fruit. You can't just take the fruit off the vine and say like, “Hey, I've got this peach but it doesn't have enough sweetness. So, I'm going to take a syringe and I'm going to inject glucose around it and make it less tart.” You say, “I want a sweet fruit,” right? ELRICK: Yeah. JOE: You could probably actually do that. CHARLES: You could. And that might be a strategy. And we see a lot of software that has those qualities of, “Oh, we're going to make this accessible,” or, “We're going to try and make this beautiful.” I happen to think that pigs are adorable animals and look great in lipstick. But that [laughs]… you could put lipstick on a pig but people can tell. And you can say, “Oh, this peach needs to have softer fruit,” and you can whack it with a mallet to actually make the meat more tender. But people are going to be able to tell. So, what you really need to do is you need to care for the peach tree rather than worry so much about the fruit. Because if you have a healthy tree, then you will have healthy fruit, right? ELRICK: Yeah. So, you want to plant good seeds. JOE: Yeah. WIL: Back to you question, Elrick, about what motivates startups and other companies to put off these things. I think the biggest thing is just time and money. They have this misconception where they're saving a little time and saving a little money now just to add it back later. But in reality, it's going to cost them tenfold time and money for adding it later, versus just spending that little bit of time and money and all that to begin with. CHARLES: That's true. JOE: It could also boil down, as far as just personal intimidation. Not so much like a business side of a thing but maybe just, think of all of the things that you listed, Elrick. It was almost a dozen dash-firsts in there. If you're sitting down at a startup that you started with three friends and just approaching these things for the first time, that's a lot to tack on right upfront. It's intimidating. CHARLES: It is intimidating. I think my message to those people is I've felt intimidated by that. I think my message to those people is like, the nice thing about it is if you attack those, if you tack all of those things from the get go, the features will take care of themselves and feel more effortless as you go on. You say like, “Oh, well actually, I don't worry about a high rate of bugs.” I want to say recidivism, but that's not the right word. A high rate of return, not on money but on – or high rate of bouncing your users. You don't want that. And if you bake that in from the beginning, parts of the software development cycle that were stressful before just aren't stressful anymore. So, if we say, “We want to have a system that is easily maintainable, well let's put that in from the very beginning.” We say that a lot. We deploy to production on day one. But what that means is, we say we have this value that we want the system to be easily maintainable. And so, we're going to do it from day one. That means that we actually – it's not something that we worry about so much on down the road. Whereas that used to be very stressful. I don't know. I remember when I started my career, there were these long release cycles where every six months, you'd release software. And the last month was just absolutely terrible as you try to stand this thing up and get it into production and then realize it's not monitored. There's no one checking the health of this thing. So, it's pissing off users at one in the morning. And… WIL: Beepers. CHARLES: What's that? WIL: Beepers. CHARLES: That's actually a great – there's a story there. The one time I got a beeper, I went canoeing in the canals of London and I tipped over my canoe and I dropped both my cellphone and the beeper that they've given me. ELRICK: What? CHARLES: I never got put on pager duty again. [Laughter] JOE: I'm going to use that next time [inaudible] with an on-call position. That's a good move. CHARLES: I remember, I definitely remember how sour my manager's face was when I turned [inaudible] the cellphone that was like, dripping with water. JOE: He was eating bad fruit, probably. CHARLES: Yeah. [Laughs] So, the other thing is we like to build beautiful applications, right? So, you have to – that match the user experience. You have to spend that time on design and beauty upfront. You will not have a beautiful application after the fact. You just need to bake it in. ELRICK: And accessible design. CHARLES: Exactly. ELRICK: Don't forget that one. CHARLES: Don't forget that, right? A responsive design. WIL: Yeah, accessibility-first in design. Yeah, responsive and all that starts in design phase, yeah. CHARLES: Yeah, all that, right? So, you want a great experience. You want an accessible experience. You want a responsive experience. You want a quality experience. You want a performant experience. That's another quality that you say. Like, “We're going to make sure that this is performant.” If you want that – and that's something that we're not always great about, right? We don't actually put in benchmarks for our software from the get go. But maybe we should. But there's perhaps a hidden cost there that we might be actually accumulating performance debt that we don't even know about. JOE: That's true. ELRICK: Interesting. JOE: So, things that pop up that are new. Like, accessibility wasn't probably always a thing in computing. Internationalization probably wasn't always a concern. Beautiful certainly wasn't a concern if you look on Wayback machine. You will see that to be true, right? [Laughter] JOE: So, all code is tech debt, I would argue. Or at least has the potential to be. And yeah, as the ecosystem as a whole evolves, being responsive to that, having plasticity in that respect, sort of like meta-first. CHARLES: Right. JOE: That could be the real challenge. WIL: Yeah, Charles is mentioning all these experience things. And so, I was thinking X-first is simply experience-first. You want you users to experience a certain quality of your app. That experience needs to start in the conception phase. CHARLES: Yeah. ELRICK: That's true. And even your developers coming in, developer experience. JOE: Yeah. CHARLES: Right. And I think the core of that X-first, that experience-first, is you need to pick which experiences. Because you can't have everything. JOE: Right, yeah. CHARLES: One, there is going to be too much. You have to say, “I'm going to sacrifice on knowing that this is a performance thing. I'm not going to include that in the core DNA of my application.” And there's just going to be things that you don't know about yet that are just unsolvable problems or that don't necessarily work. And you can say, “You know what? Hypothetically, I'm not going to make this an accessible – I'm not going to focus on accessibility.” But then you need to own that. And you need to know that you're accumulating a huge amount of debt around that. And then I think that is a particularly bad trade-off because someone's always going to come along and you're going to have to know that your application is accessible. I think once we clamp down on that, that's going to be something that we have a strategy for and we include at the beginning on every single application, right? ELRICK: Yeah. CHARLES: But I think you need to have, almost like holding the cards in your hand, say, “These are the cards. These are the X's that I'm going to have in my hand. And they are going to be core to my app.” And they're going to be part of the DNA of that tree. So that I know that the fruit is then going to have those qualities. JOE: And then you as an engineer, that goes through an iterative process as well. Just starting out, you have no idea what that DNA should look like. And short of learning from people who are wiser than you who are around you, and reading blog posts and whatnot, really the only way to know the pain of strong-arming internationalization for instance into a 15-year-old Perl application, is to go through it. And then, you know, future trees will not have this DNA. CHARLES: Right. Right. And that's the other thing. Is if you are going to include, if you are going to try and splice something into the DNA, there's a lot of work. And you just need to go for it. You acknowledge that it's going to be a lot of work. And you need to, you just need to own it and go for it. And pay that expense of actually getting it deep, deep, deep into your application's core values. So that then, you don't have to worry about it anymore. Otherwise, you're going to be paying – you're just basically signing up for a lifetime of debt. Right? WIL: Yeah. And then to make the debt analogy even more, it's like people don't understand the total debt. The end debt. People get a $30,000 loan with a 4% interest and they think they're paying back that $30,000 loan. But really, they're paying back $36,400 after all the amortization of their interest. The debt is higher than you can see, always. CHARLES: Right. WIL: And it's true in tech debt, too. React is the new hot thing now, but in 10 years we're going to be on React debt that we're migrating away from. JOE: I hope so. [Laughter] CHARLES: Maybe less, I think less than 10. WIL: Yeah. The debt is always there. And people don't realize how much they have to pay on top of what's visible. JOE: Yeah. It's an invisible vig. CHARLES: What's a vig? JOE: It's interest, in the mafia. CHARLES: Oh. JOE: Sorry. Yeah. CHARLES: I forgot you're Italian. JOE: Yeah. ELRICK: So, for people that are listening, they might be in a situation where they need to advocate to the powers that may be these X-first values. What do you all think that some of the approaches that they should take to say to whomever it is that, “We need to do this first”? Because there's times where you might say, “Hey, we need to do this first,” and people just look and say, “Oh, maybe not.” Then you need to push back on that. CHARLES: In my experience, I find that the tech debt argument is a good one. Because I think it can be, it's both limiting and empowering. Because sometimes it really is the right call to pull out your credit card and put something on it. If you need to buy water and you need to buy food and you don't have any other means, man, put it on the credit card. Right? Seriously. Even if you have no idea how you're going to pay it back. Like, whip that sucker out and stick the chip in. And it doesn't matter how much it costs. And so, sometimes that is the right call. But I think draining it of a moral or a value as a human person thing, and approaching it from a business decision and saying, really trying to attach a cost to it. Because then I think if you can drain out the emotion of it, because people really want something. They're striving to go get it and trying, give them tools to think about it rationally. That I think is a good strategy, to just say, let them know that there is a debt that's being paid here or that's being accumulated here. And it's really large. And maybe even say, “Look, if we were to put this off by six months, this might cost not twice as much. It might cost ten or even a hundred times as much.” So, by saving $5,000 now, you might actually be accumulating $50,000 worth of debt. It's [bigger] than you think. But I do like – so, I think that's one important tool. But I think then also the other important tool is to say, “If we are going to attack this, let's drive it home. Let's put it at the core. Let's make this a value that we hold so that the tree can take care of the fruit itself.” So, if we say that we're going to put in accessibility – because not all projects are greenfields. JOE: Absolutely not. CHARLES: So, what's the message to them? Sorry. You're just SOL. I think if you're a year into a project, two years into a project, and you realize, “Oh no. We need to do internationalization,” recognize that that might be something that's – that's a pillar of your architecture. Or, “We're going to make this application accessible,” don't half-ass it. WIL: Weave it in. CHARLES: Say, “We're going to transform this. We're not going to add accessibility. We're going to transform what we have into an accessible application.” Or, “We're going to transform what we have into a beautiful application.” Otherwise… WIL: Yeah [inaudible]. CHARLES: I would say leave it ugly and focus your efforts elsewhere on things where you do have your values straight. Because you're never going to have everything in line. JOE: No. WIL: Treat software like immutably. You don't add something to it. When you want to add accessibility, you're creating a whole new accessible app. ELRICK: Ooh. That's deep. CHARLES: Yeah. JOE: So, having seen – I don't know. I think it was very apt, looking at it as a business decision. I've seen it go the other way. Because at least among engineers and people on the technical side of it, this can become a very strong moral issue that people feel very strongly about. CHARLES: Because we have to live with the consequences quite honestly, right? JOE: Exactly. And that's a hard thing to translate to say an executive board that may be three levels abstracted away from you and is making those decisions. I've seen people attack or approach this I guess with that emotion built in, with the, “This is the right way to do it. Everybody else is doing it wrong.” It gets nowhere, basically. What needs to happen I think, so you talk about having this beautiful tree. But that also requires beautiful gardeners. And so, where the moral thing or the interpersonal thing comes in is there needs to be kind of an inclusive and encouraging environment that is fostered among the people tending to the tree. And that's a totally separate thing than selling the business value of it. Those things should be completely divorced. CHARLES: Yeah. It's funny. It's always hard to reconcile those two things, right? Because on one you have, “You have to take care of the raw consumption of material and the output of product.” But then also trying to – so, there's some baseline math that has to happen but making sure that that goal, it doesn't slice people. And can enable them to be happy and feel like they're doing good work. And that the things that they're doing is having meaning. It's probably an insoluble problem that we're going to be dancing around for as long as people are around. If there's one thing that we've come to recognize around here, and we've stated it many different ways from a bunch of different angles through the course of this conversation, and I would say through the course of this podcast, but that is if you want to see something in your software, make sure that you attack it from the get go. ELRICK: Intertwine it in your DNA. CHARLES: Exactly. And then you can actually experience the fruit, rather than trying to always, always trying to jam it and change it and get it into the taste you want after the fact. So, I guess that's it. Thank you so much y'all, for this conversation. I really, really enjoyed it. For those of y'all listening, if you want to continue the conversation, you can get in touch with us we are @TheFrontside on Twitter. Or you can drop us an email. We're contact@frontside.io. So, thanks Elrick. Thanks, Joe. Thanks, Will. JOE: Thank you. WIL: Thank you. ELRICK: Yup. It was great. JOE: It was fruitful. [Chuckles] ELRICK: Frontside-first. CHARLES: And well, we'll see y'all around.
In this episode, I'm talking to Karen Barrow, a New York Times journalist who has put together a truly unique and inspiring project to tell the story of what happens when the treatment ends. This book should be on every cancer patient's coffee table for those dark times when you don't know if there's a light at the end of all this... Stay strong, you can get through it! Here's what we talk about in this interview: Why survivor stories make you feel less alone The universal emotions through cancer we all can relate to The importance of seeing the light at the end of the tunnel How you deal with cancer is a choice Why some people reject the term “survivor” The naturally occurring shift in priorities when you get cancer Links Picture Your Life After Cancer (Amazon) Picture Your Life After Cancer (New York Times) Well Blog (New York Times) Karen's Work at New York Times Full Transcript Joe: Hey, this is Joe Bakhmoutski and welcome to Simplify Cancer podcast. Today, we're going to hear from Karen Barrow, who's put together this incredible, this inspiration books called: Picture Your Life After Cancer. It's really amazing and I hope you check it out. Let's get into it. Karen, thank you so much for doing this. I really appreciate your time. Karen: No problem. Joe: Karen, your book puts cancer in a really different light. I guess in many ways, people find positives, a new appreciation of life, is that something that you expected? Karen: Just a little background, we stated Picture Your Life After Cancer online, as a digital project, in 2010. It was primarily a way of collecting images of people who were dealing with cancer, who considered themselves after cancer. After cancer for a lot of people could be after diagnosis, or after treatment, or after cure, or after accepting death or a relevant death. I didn't really know what I would get. It was amazing to see the percentage of stories that came in, that were very positive and that were stories of people who found spins to put on their experiences that helped them appreciate life more, helped them appreciate friends and family more, and help them appreciate their own health more. Joe: Absolutely, because it's given – I've seen a lot of books and I've tried to find a lot of resources online, offline and everywhere. I think your book really captures a voice that is missing, a voice that hasn't been heard before. Do you feel that voice is heard out in the greater community, like do people have maybe a better sense of what cancer is about? I know it started as an online project and turned into a book later, do you think people have a better sense of what it's like? Karen: I think within the book, people can find stories that they relate to, and that helps them feel less alone in the process of going through cancer, because if you're going through treatment, it's very individualized, it's very specific to you, the kind of cancer you have, the treatments you're choosing, how you're choosing to deal with side-effects, but the impact it has on your mental psyche and your family and your friends is more universal than I think people realize. If you go through the book and you read stories from other people, you'll find some that you have nothing in common with, but you'll find plenty that resonate with you and it makes your experience feel less unique and, in that way, easier to understand. Joe: Yes, absolutely, because I find when I was going through it, I remember that there wasn't really much out there that is positive, because there is a lot of academic resources and there are a lot of biographies and things like that. There really isn't anything that is positive, that is in the title of your book, Picture Your Life After Cancer. You can say, “Wow, I'm going through all of this horrible stuff right now,
In this episode, I'm talking to Daniel Sencier who shares his perspective in battling prostate cancer, dealing with a broken health system and finding new meaning and a new way of life despite cancer. Here's what you going to find out in this interview: The hammer-blow of your diagnosis How to deal with a broken system if you fall through the cracks Why starting your blog can help you deal with cancer The importance of gathering the facts about your cancer Why some folks disappear from your life when they found out about your cancer Starting a new way of life with cancer Links Prostate Cancer - Daniel's Blog Full Transcript Joe: Hey, this is Joe and welcome to Simplify Cancer Podcast. Today, you're going to hear from Daniel, who found a new meaning in life and a new way of life through prostate cancer, which is incredible, so check it out. Daniel, thank you so much for coming and chatting with me. I really appreciate it. Daniel, I really want to start at the beginning and I really want to understand where you're coming from with prostate cancer. When did it all happen and how did you react when you first found out you had it? Daniel: I only found out because I was having annual checks because my father had died of prostate cancer, and I knew it ran in families. I just went for an annual PSA check, never expecting it to be that at all, but yes, one of the times I went, and my doctor said, “We need to look at this a bit more.” I wasn't outside the limits, I was still 3.6, which is one inside the 4 in the UK that you have to breach before they send you to a specialist. He said because it had gone from, well, it had doubled within about a year, so even though it had gone from 1.8 to 3.6, normally, I wouldn't have been seen, it would have been classes as an okay by a less experienced doctor. Joe: Yes, how did you react? What was going through your mind? Daniel: When I was given the news? Joe: Yes. Daniel: Well, I skipped into hospital that day because I had just been accepted onto a University degree, a four-year course. I thought, wow, this is going to be amazing. I didn't even have test results on my mind because that's all I was thinking of. You know, at the age I was at then, you've been back to your doctor and the hospital so many times for your test results, and it's so boring, isn't it? They say, “Yes, everything's fine, Daniel, come back next year.” I just sat down for more of the same. Unfortunately, you have got prostate cancer. You know, when you see in the films, when someone's given news, and all the background goes blurred and the sound goes off? I thought, god, I'm having a stroke. It was just like that. Everything just went fuzzy and I couldn't hear his words and his words started to fade out, all I was thinking of was, my god, I'm dying. A child of the 60s, so cancer equals death. There wasn't any other scenario really. Looking back, I needn't have been as worried at that stage. At the time, it was pretty shattering. Joe: Absolutely. I remember that's what happened to me, as well. The whole world came to a stop and everything was in slow motion and the whole sound was muffled. It was just bizarre. Yes, I remember I was sitting at the urologist's office and nothing made sense, it just didn't connect. Daniel: That's right. I left that day with a pile of leaflets and the worst thing that day I left with was this 24-hour helpline number. I looked at that number and I was like, “This is like having a connection with god, at least I can ask anybody anything, anytime I want. I took that number home. The first time I rang it, it went onto an answering machine. Voicemail. I thought, wow, so I tried it a few more times. About the fifth time I tried it, there was nothing. At a later date, I found out there wasn't actually anyone manni...
Alison Davis: LinkedIn Ronald McCollam: @ronaldmccollam | ronaldmccollam.com Show Notes: 01:19 - The Future of IoT 04:57 - Where does Resin.io fit in? 07:04 - Founding Resin and The Unicorn 11:26 - How Resin Works 15:16 - Diffing 17:58 - Tooling and Workflow 23:02 - Resin is Open Sourced! 24:05 - Case Studies 30:04 - Security 34:47 - Scaling Up and Improving User Experience Resources: OpenROV Underwater Drones Etcher resinOS Transcript: ELRICK: Hello and welcome to The Frontside Podcast, Episode 80. We have a wonderful podcast today. My name is Elrick Ryan, a developer here at the Frontside and I'm going to be hosting the podcast today, in place of Charles because he's on the frozen tundra. I also have co-hosting with me today as well, another developer from the Frontside, Joe LaSala. JOE: Hello. ELRICK: Joe, how are you doing? JOE: I'm doing well, how are you? ELRICK: I'm awesome, man, and we have a wonderful podcast today. We're going to be talking about Resin.io and we have some wonderful people here from Resin with us, not one but two people came over from Arizona. We have Alison Davis, who is the director of product marketing and strategy at Resin. Alison, how are you doing? ALISON: Hey, Elrick, I'm great. Thanks for having us. ELRICK: Thank you for coming on. Also, we have Ronald McCollam, who is the solution architect at Resin.io, he's on the call with us on the podcast. Ronald, how are you doing? RONALD: I'm doing great, Elrick. Happy to be here, thank you for having me. ELRICK: Thank you for coming on. Thank you. Let's kick it off and we're going to talk about some IoT today, some Resin in IoT. What do you guys think is the future of IoT? What does it hold in your perspective? RONALD: If you had asked me a couple of years ago, I probably would have said that it's a bunch of connected refrigerators and maybe light switches and kind of left it at that. But the more I see the industry evolving, the more I realize that IoT really means that everything is getting interconnected and everything is sending data and exchanging data. I think we'll start to see IoT, not only in smart appliances and lights and so forth on the consumer side, but also on the industrial side. A lot of building automation, a lot of just more general information being provided by the environment and environments adapting to suit humans better. I think really the answer is IoT is going to be everywhere you look over the next few years. ELRICK: That is a broad takeover of IoT. It's going to be everywhere. ALISON: Yeah and I'll just add that we also think that IoT is going to become more prominent as compute power really does push further and further out to the edge. We see this trend happening already, where the amount of data and computing that needs to happen is too much to continuously be communicating back up to the cloud and more and more computing will need to take place on the edge in IoT devices and we really see these strong devices weakly connected as we often say as the future of IoT. One thing, we can talk about with Resin is, we see this creating what we call a management gap in between the developer and the fleet owner of these devices on the edge and the devices themselves and that's where Resin comes into the picture. ELRICK: That's interesting, so these devices are going to be sharing the computation and taking away some of that computations from the actual cloud? ALISON: Yeah, we think so. I think the devices themselves are getting stronger and it's becoming more and more possible for that to happen. Then there's just simple reasons of physics and economics why it will be too slow and too expensive to continuously be relying on the cloud for compute. This is a trend that we really see happening and something that we want to help fill that management gap between developers and their fleets of devices that are running out on the edge. ELRICK: I can see how that could be a plus for a company to not have to try to do all these computation on the cloud. As Ronald said earlier, since IoT is everywhere and it's going to be in devices all over the world, we could end up with probably trillions of devices trying to leverage cloud to do with computation and taken some of that away from the cloud would be a definite plus because I don't think that there is a platform that can handle that kind of data throughput. RONALD: Yeah and even as Alison said, there are just times that for reasons of the laws of physics, you really can't wait for that round trip to the cloud. We'll go sci-fi here. Let's say you've got some automated robot in an environment with a lot of people around, you don't want that thing sending all of the camera information that it has as it's moving through a crowd of people up to the cloud, waiting for the processing to happen there and then being pushed back. By the time it gets there, that robot may have already run over somebody. We really don't want that. You've got to do some of that processing out at the edge where the data is being collected. ELRICK: Yep. That's both technology issue and legal liability there so we got to make sure there's no robots running over anyone. RONALD: Yeah, exactly. ELRICK: How does Resin then blend itself to helping to promote this computation in strong devices that are weakly connected? RONALD: What Resin does is really enable you to be sure that you are running the right code on the right device and that any updates you push out to that device are not going to take that device offline or brick the device. Resin really sees whatever is running on the device as sort of a black box. We really don't have a lot of opinion about what the right thing to do on your device is. We think you know that better than we do. But what we can do is help you make sure that the devices that you have out in the field are always running the latest code, that when you find security flaws or you want to push an update out, you can always reach those devices and be sure that you can do that safely and effectively. Really, from our point of view, we want to make sure that the IoT is running safely and is always running the latest and greatest, the best code that you can possibly have out on your devices. ALISON: You need to have a way to remotely manage an update on all of these devices in a way that won't brick the devices or make you lose access to them when you can't physically access the device again. Resin is here to make it simple, easy, efficient, fast and most importantly, safe to update, as Ronald said, the code and software running on the devices so you can push updates as often as you like, send security patches and then remotely monitor what's going on with your entire fleet, all from your laptop. ELRICK: That's amazing. We've had some experience using Resin here at the office and we've been very excited and delighted with the service. I've been in Boston, actually pushing code down to Texas and it happens like almost instantaneously, which is amazing. JOE: Yep. We really enjoy using it. I think it's really cool. We're only using it currently on one Raspberry Pi but it be really fun to have a fleet of Pis and get expand that reach. I got to ask what the origin story is for the Unicorn that gets displayed. ELRICK: Yeah and in that vein, what is the founding story like? How was Resin founded? RONALD: The founding of Resin is really an interesting story because it's not that there were a bunch of people sitting around in a boardroom with a whiteboard and saying, "What's the next big thing coming along, what can we get into?" This really came about as a result of real world events. Back in the 2012 Winter Olympics in London, the team that would later go on to found Resin ended up in charge of a project dealing with a bunch of digital signs, so think of advertising and information about what was going on in the Olympics. These were all over the city of London. Mostly on a really, really interesting smart bomb proof rubbish bins. They really went all out to make sure nobody could come to harm as a result of these. But the team was intending to push some updates out to these devices -- update the information on the signs -- and had inherited this project that had been built where they were really doing what everybody was doing at the time. You just SSH into a device remotely, you run a set of script and you kind of hope everything works. That's how we had a whole bunch of people walking around the city of London in the middle of winter with USB keyboards and USB sticks, trying to get all of these individual rubbish bins back online and back up and running after a bad update. After pulling back from that, they said, "You know, this is terrible. There ought to be a better way to do this. Why did we end up in the situation?" It turns out, there really wasn't a great way to do it at the time. That's where Resin comes from. It's an effort to fix this problem, not only for ourselves but for everybody in the world to make it easy to push updates to remote devices and be sure that you're not going to have to walk around in the cold and the sludge to try to get those things back online if you do a bad update. I don't really know what the origin of the Unicorn is. I know it was an in-joke with that team that, I guess kind of slipped out more into the real world. I don't know, Alison if you know more about the Unicorn than I do but it's still a fun thing to see every time you do a push. ALISON: Yeah, I think our CTO Petros, who was also the first person we think anyway to -- when we get into this when we talk about how Resin works -- port Docker to ARM, which as a core piece of the Resin platform, he wanted to add in something fun so that when you complete a successful deployment on Resin, you see the Unicorn and that means that your push is successful and your device has fully downloaded the update. I think that's part of what makes Resin 'Resin' is where we're very, very serious and we want everything to be secure and completely buttoned up. But we also like to keep things a little bit fun and make sure that, not only is it safe and easy to deploy updates but also enjoyable. ELRICK: We definitely enjoy seeing that Unicorn as well. I've just been pushing the simplest code of all time just to see that Unicorn pop up on a successful build. RONALD: Yeah, it's always nice to get some feedback that everything worked well and everything is going perfectly for you today. ELRICK: Yeah, that's beautiful. We were thinking about that as we were talking about some IoT things before. We had not the best product idea in the world and since everyone drinks Topo Chico in Texas, we were like, "I wonder if we had a Topo Chico popper in the refrigerator," and then we're like, "If millions of people end up with this Topo Chico popper, how we then going to update the code on these Topo Chico popper in everyone's refrigerators?" That's where we're like, "Resin.io would be a perfect solution for that," or as you said, half people are walking around in the sludge going to update these devices. These devices could be located anywhere in the world and Resin seems to be a platform that could handle that type of requirement that you have to update these devices that could be anything and anywhere. I guess we can talk about how Resin then works in order to get that code deployed to anywhere and keep all of these devices updated with fresh code, as you said. RONALD: Yeah, absolutely and you're completely right. This is designed from the ground up to be something for working with distributed systems, devices that are not really under your physical control. They may not even be on a network that you control so this could be something that is out in the middle of the ocean, up on top of a mountain. Anywhere that you have network access and you want to be able to update a device is really the target for Resin. The way that this works is there's a lot of bells and whistles and things that we've learned over years of updating devices and managing devices but at kind of a high-level, we maintain a host OS on the device. There's a stripped-down version of Linux on that device that maintains a connection to the network. Really, its entire job is to just keep that device humming, keep it on the network and not do a whole lot else. Everything else happens inside of a Docker container and if you're not familiar with Docker, Docker is really sort of like a lightweight virtualization. It's a container technology that allows us to pack an application, all of its libraries, even its operating environment into one container that can be deployed and managed very, very easily. Because everything is sitting inside of a container, we can push updates to a container and not touch that underlying OS layer that is managing the network connection. Even if you do push bad code, that's not great. Your code might crash but the host operating system is still going to stay online. It's still going to maintain that network connection so that you can roll back or push another update to fix things very quickly. Then on top of that, we layer on a lot of technology that we have developed in-house to do things like computed delta between what is running on the device and what code you have just pushed to us to get on the device. You might have an eight gigabyte application running on one of these IoT devices but if you make a one kilobyte change, we're really only going to push about one kilobyte out to the device. We're not doing a full blast of a firmware update, making you pay for eight gigabytes of data over your 3G connection. We're really doing everything we can to minimize the amount of data that we send over the air, both so updates go faster but also so that we don't have to pay as much for bandwidth or wait as long in intermittent network connectivity environments. Then the final part of this is that by using Docker, we get for free some of the really cool things that Docker brings to typically larger data center environments. We have things like atomic updates. When you push an update out to a device, if you lose power or you lose connectivity in the middle of that update, that's fine. The device is just going to keep running the same code that it had on it previously until network connectivity is restored. It will resume that update and only once the full container is downloaded and put on the device, it will shut down the old version and start running the new one. There's really a lot of under the hood stuff that we've developed and we've layered on to make sure that when you push an update out to these devices, it's always doing it safely and always doing what you want to do. I get to say this because I didn't write any of the underlying code. I'm constantly amazed at some of the stuff that Resin does under the hood. It's really fun to see, just how easy it can be to update devices that are anywhere in the world. I'm constantly pushing things to London or to Seattle. I'm in Boston so it's really cool to see these things update all over the world. ELRICK: That is amazing, all of the various things that Resin gives you out of the box that you don't have to worry about as a developer, as a company. It provides you that underlying foundation for you to then build whatever product that you want to build or software that you want to build on top of it and it's absolutely amazing. I'm blown out the water every time I do something out on it as well. RONALD: Oh, cool. I'm really glad to hear that. That makes me feel good. ELRICK: That's interesting. There's so much in what you just said. There's so many different parts. I know that Joe one time, he was wondering how you guys actually do that diffing in the code that's pushed up to then on the download those changes and not the entire bulk of that code. Can you dive any deeper or give a further explanation on that portion of it? RONALD: Yeah, absolutely. I'm happy to. At a high-level, it's very simple to explain. Of course the devil is in the details. It's just like, "Updating the device. Oh, great. I'll just push bits out to it and run some stuff." If you think about it too simply, that's how you end up having to trudge around in the snow with USB stick. But at high-level, we're tracking what's already deployed on all of those devices. Because the devices out in the field are in contact with the Resin service on the backend, we know what version of your code is running on every single device at any given time. Because of that, what we can do is when you push a new version of your application, we can just do a binary diff against the image that was pushed out earlier to the image that you just wanted to push right now. We can say, "This device is running version one. I want to bring it to version three." I already know what version one is. I, obviously know what version three is because I have it right here. We'll just calculate a diff between those two versions and send only that diff out to the device. Then because the device is fairly intelligent, we can do a lot of computation at the edge to just reverse that diff and apply it on top of what's already there. These are Linux devices. They can run the same code that we use on the backend to generate that diff just in reverse, to generate the final image that we want to deploy. Even if you've got devices on five different versions of your application and you want to push them all out to the latest version, we can apply a different diff for every single device and push that diff out to the devices and they will then apply it on top of the container they're running. From the user perspective, it's nice and easy. Under the hood, there's a lot going on that we've developed to make sure that process always happen safely and securely. JOE: That's very impressive. We use Resin for our lights here in the office. We have a Raspberry Pi that controls a bunch of Philips Hue lights. I just started here a few months ago when I came on. Elrick had already have been poking around this Resin stuff and particularly that part, being able to do that diff and push only the code necessary, it was really impressive. It's also very easy to me, instead of 'get push' origins, it's 'get push' Resin, like you have the ability to send it out in your normal workflow. RONALD: Yeah, that was, honestly one of the big issues that we've seen in the IoT space in general is that the tooling and the workflow that people are using, I don't want to insult it but it's out of date. It's very much a 20th century mindset. People aren't tending to use the latest tools. They don't have continuous integration. It's really like I'm writing some C code or assembly and I'm blasting out a firmware update. That's worked in the past but it doesn't get to the scale that you can do things in the web and cloud world. Look at Facebook. They're doing multiple deployments a day sometimes to production and when was the last time you heard about a deployment taking Facebook down. There's a lot of tooling and a lot of really cool development that has been worked on and put into practice over the past 10 or 15 years to make those things possible. We're taking those same tools and we're bringing them to the IoT world. Just like you mentioned, when you do a deploy through Resin, you're actually doing a get push. We're using the exact same tools that you would use to deploy to a cloud environment but now, you're deploying those out to an IoT environment so we can fit right into a continuous integration pipeline. We can let you do things like distributed development. Resin is a very distributed team. We have people in something like 19 or 20 countries. We're using these tools to develop Resin. We kind of said, let's use those same tools to bring that experience to the IoT world. It's a really great way if you already have some experience with cloud development or modern desktop software development to be able to use those same tools for IoT, without having to come from a really heavy hardware background or firmware background. I, myself am a software guy and a web guy from way back so it's really cool for me to be able to deploy things on the devices without having to think about assembly code or firmware blobs or things like that. I can just write, even maybe some Electron code, get push that and it lands on a Raspberry Pi and I've got my code running on a device somewhere out in the world without me having to learn a new tool set. It's really powerful from that aspect as well. ALISON: An important point is that we want to bring the best and most modern and newest tools to the IoT but we also want to bring a workflow that feels native to developers who are coming to IoT from the cloud and web world. Given the growth that we think will take place in IoT and more and more devices moving out to the edge and more compute are moving out to the edge, we'll need more and more developers to be building software and code for these devices and we want to make it very accessible and easy and native to all developers and to the workflows that they're used to so they can develop applications for IoT and have it feel like a very native workflow. JOE: You've hit on what I think is like a very important point about this. The IoT is a marriage of these systems programming, embedded programming and web development in a way. That's a very different codes that is written. People who write code in embedded systems, it's a very different world than what we do as web developers. The one thing that you might be able to bridge that gap with is a common workflow and we're all used to version control or used to kind of pushing code out the way that we push code out and Resin sits right in the middle there. That's worth a lot, I think. ALISON: Exactly. RONALD: That exactly it. There are millions of mobile developers and millions of web developers but only hundreds of thousands of traditional embedded developers. Being able to bring those millions of developers using their same tools they're already familiar with to this IoT space, I think just really dramatically increases the opportunity for people to get involved and to build the next cool thing. JOE: Definitely. ELRICK: That is totally true because we were able to hook up Resin into CircleCI so we can get a continuous integration and continuous deployment pipeline. It was definitely a painless solution to set up. That is testament to that, if anyone wants to build something on top and start to add other things into Resin that you guys definitely do have those hooks for people to then, add whatever they need to build, whenever they need. RONALD: Yeah, definitely. We think that the days of walled gardens are really over. We don't want to see companies try to lock other people or locked developers into a single application or a single environment or a single device. We really want these things to be as open and interoperable as possible. Part of that is just making sure that everything that we do is also open and interoperable. We expose all of our APIs to anyone, you don't have to use any of the Resin tooling, you can wrap that right into CircleCI, for example, you can pull that into Jenkins, you can pop this right into your development workflow and just keep rolling right along and we're happy to be a part of that. ALISON: I think that brings up another important point about what Resin does too is that we're really committed to open sourcing all of Resin and currently everything that runs on the device, including our operating system -- resinOS -- is open source so that people can see exactly what's going on. We even had people take our operating system and tweak it to support new device types or add in their own functionality on top of that OS. We're working really hard to actually open source all of our backend as well. That's something that's really important to us in this world of open and accessible software for IoT. We want this to be something that feels approachable and open to anybody. ELRICK: That is amazing. I didn't know that all of the code or majority of your code was open source. You heard it here first. If you want to go and check out some awesome code, head over to GitHub and look up Resin.io's codebase. ALISON: Yeah, all of the code on the devices and the whole operating system is all open source already and then where we're releasing all of the pieces of our backend so that if you want to run Resin on your own, you can do that. Hopefully, by the end of the year, I think is our goal. ELRICK: We've been talking about Resin and all of the benefits that Resin would give developers and companies that want to build products and it has a slew of things that it gives you out of the box, if you don't have to build that you can then build on top of. It will be interesting to hear some case studies or how people are actually using Resin in the wild to bid out their products. Do you have any specific case studies or things that you can talk about in respect to how people are using it out in the world? RONALD: Yeah. We have a huge variety of companies using Resin. We like to say that it's everything from smart locks to skyscrapers. The smallest physical device that I know of that we're managing is smart locks like actual door locks on houses and buildings. Then we have things as big as skyscrapers like industrial automation, building automation. It's really all over the place. One of the most interesting use cases to me is there's a company called OpenROV that does underwater drones. They have remote submersible vehicles that are exploring and doing cool science underneath the ocean. They're managing the software that's running on those devices using Resin. They throw these submarines out in the ocean, they let him tool around on their own. When they come up to the surface, they send back data and check in for updates so they can be constantly refining what those submersibles are doing out in the ocean without having to physically go pick them up or bring them back in to make changes. It's a really, really exciting thing to see. But we've got similar stories in things like power generation. I mentioned earlier out in the middle of the ocean or on top of a mountain that was literal. We do have companies that are making wind turbines that are in all kinds of environments that are very difficult to get to. They really want to get the top performance out of these devices. If you can pull a 1% increase in power generation from a wind turbine, you've really started making a lot more money. That's a very significant improvement. They have devices in these wind turbines that are constantly monitoring every part of the turbine itself and the environment so they're feeding data back and then they can use that to build a new model of the best way to say, angle blades on a turbine and then push that new model out to the device without having to go miles out into the ocean or up on top of a mountain to physically touch those devices. Again it's a really cool way of being able to pull data back in, modeled it in the cloud and then push that back out to the edge for application without having to physically visit every one of those devices. It's just really exciting to see all the cool use cases that Resin has being used in. ELRICK: That is amazing. I actually gave a talk one time and I said, these devices could be out in the middle of the ocean somewhere, who knows? And someone could be pushing updates to it and it's amazing to hear that someone is actually doing that. I didn't just pull that out of the thin air. This is a real thing. RONALD: Yeah, absolutely. We've got, like I said, out in the ocean, on top of mountains. We've got ones in the middle of cities. Anywhere that you have a network connection, you can put a device. We even have some companies doing things over 3G or even 2G modems, I think like out in the jungle or in very rural areas where you want to be able to collect things like environmental data or maybe air quality information. Really, anywhere that you can have a network connection, you can have a device that you're managing and updating and making sure it's kept up to date without having to physically go touch that thing. ALISON: And Resin really is use-case agnostic and we see end users using Resin in their workflow, no matter what project they're working on. It all comes down to, I think all of these companies and projects are looking for ways to operate more efficiently and to gather data about their businesses and their projects. Any company in any business can use IoT to improve their operations. We see more and more companies finding ways to incorporate IoT into their work and I think part of that is driven by the availability and accessibility of tools like Resin devices, like the Raspberry Pi. That's affordable and easily available and quick to get up and running on. That's a new trend and I think it's enabling a lot faster and broader adoption of IoT. JOE: Absolutely. It feels constantly like we're right on the cusp of something with IoT. But we do work in that space a lot just in our own time and as part of the work that we do here at the Frontside, we're always finding the tool set seems a step behind and Resin is a stark contrast of that. We're coming into a whole new era of computing with something with a very powerful tool in our belt already. That is very well fleshed out. Thank you for that. RONALD: Yeah, thank you. It really does feel like we are on the verge of a sea change in how we see computing. We've gone, like I said from a few years ago thinking of IoT as sort of silly things like smart refrigerators. I shouldn't say silly but just sort of one off use-case like smart refrigerators or smart lighting. Now, to the extent where it's really about pervasive computing and I think we're just barely starting to scratch the surface of what that means and how that's going to change the world when we start having data about everything that's going on in the world around us. All of the equipment that we have and all of the compute power that we have around us is able to adapt to us and change as the needs of the environment change is just a really exciting time. I don't even think we can predict what the world is going to look like in 15 years as a result of this. ALISON: As IoT and edge computing becomes more pervasive, we touched on this at the beginning but this is where management and security become really important and you hear a lot of people in the press and elsewhere talking about the security of IoT devices and how they're vulnerable to attacks. This is where something like Resin is really important where you need to be able to access and be able to update and send security patches to those devices remotely and to send those updates constantly so that they're not vulnerable. As this field grows, which we think it will exponentially, we really need to find ways to fill this management gap and Resin, hopefully can help do that to some extent. RONALD: I think that traditionally, if you were building a device, you think like a hardware manufacturer like Alison says, you're not thinking about necessarily security and updates because in the past, it was just, we build a device, we'll put it out in the world and that's it, unless the things are catching on fire and we have to do a recall, we just move on to the next thing. But today, all of these devices are connected to the internet, which means they're constantly being attacked, people are looking for vulnerabilities and as soon as one of those is found, that spreads across the world like wildfire. We see the news articles on a weekly basis of IoT devices being used as part of botnets or being taken offline. Having a way to make sure that you can constantly address those issues as they come up is really, really important. Even if you're a hardware manufacturer, once that device is released, you have to think like a software company. You have to be thinking of updates. You have to be thinking about security all the time or you're really letting your customers down. JOE: Yeah, that's very true and the only way to mitigate threats is to constantly addressing those threats. I've worked in the security space. There's no such thing as secure really. We're never going to reach a level where it's like, we solved it. You have to constantly be rolling with the punches, so to speak. It's great that that's built in with Resin. RONALD: Yeah, exactly. Security isn't really an end state. You don't ever get to say, "Yes, I'm secure now." It's a process. It's how do I deal with things as they happen because they will happen. ELRICK: That is definitely true and people shouldn't be afraid to be constantly pushing data to these devices because as you said, people and some of your customers are using Resin on 3G and 2G networks so that is proof there because of the diffing that you do in the backend and you only have to push down a small subset of your code that you can definitely just constantly be pushing and staying up to date to make sure that you're on top of your security issues. RONALD: Yeah, exactly and it's only going to become more and more important as we expect these devices to do more things and work with more data and perform more analytics at the edge. We just have to stay on top of that as an industry. ALISON: And we have customers who tell us that before Resin, they used to be afraid to push updates and they would put it off until the last possible minute. We want to create an environment where the opposite is true, where you push updates all the time, not only to push any security patches but also to make your applications better and push better code out to your devices. We want people to feel empowered and they will able to do that as often as they would in the cloud [inaudible]. ELRICK: Yeah, that's definitely true because as you said, as we're getting more web developers and people into this space, we're used to, as web developers constantly pushing code and constantly sending updates about our codebase out there. As more developers from this base come into the IoT space, that's definitely something that they're going to be looking for and Resin does provide that capability out of the box. JOE: It's interesting that it follow the same pattern because we weren't always used to that. We used to plan on a quarterly basis and releases would be these huge multi-day headaches with people on call. We kind of started going towards this very fast incremental thing and it seems like that's a pattern that isn't just web, I guess. RONALD: Yeah, definitely. That model really has evolved from a lot of heavily painful work. Lessons people have had to learn over the course of years or even decades, tools that have taken thousands of hours to build, all of these processes are hard won knowledge. We really should be applying that everywhere we possibly can. Let's bring that into the IoT world and not start over from scratch and have to relearn all those lessons and reinvent all those particular wheels. ELRICK: Resin is being used by a lot of varying companies and you have a wide customer base. Are there any use cases that came up that then pushed you to say that we have to build some for the features into Resin or some other type of software to help Resin or leverage Resin? ALISON: Yeah, definitely. We've seen over the last couple of years, as you mentioned a lot of different use cases and customers using Resin. Our goal is really to make it easy and simple for fleet owners, as we call them, people who are managing fleets of IoT devices. We want to make it easy for them to scale as quickly and seamlessly as possible. Anytime we build something, either into the platform or adjacent to the platform, it's always with that in mind. One good example is the tool that we built called 'Etcher,' which some people may be familiar with even if they aren't familiar with Resin. Etcher is essentially a way to earn SD cards and USB sticks and essentially provision IoT devices in a way that's much easier than just using DD, if you use that or any other solution that you might be using and that was borne out of our realization that this was actually a big pain point for our users, that they were having a hard time provisioning their devices. We just built Etcher and actually released it as its own standalone open source tool. Similarly, that's actually why we built our own operating system, resinOS, because there was no operating system that existed yet that would allow us to run containers on constrained IoT devices. We did the same thing, where we release that as its own standalone open source projects so that people can benefit from resinOS, even if they aren't using Resin the platform. We're always looking for ways to make that process of scaling up and deploying fleets easier and releasing those projects as openly and broadly as possible. RONALD: Yeah, to add to that going forward, we're also looking to make some improvements into the Resin platform just based on a lot of the feedback that we've gotten as people are managing these very large fleets. We are, right now working on improving the experience when you are managing multiple containers on a single device. A lot of times, people will have microservices where they'll have separate Docker containers for each function that a device is doing and it's doing multiple functions. We're working on improving the user experience of deploying those individual containers and managing multiple containers on one device. We're also looking at ways to extend Resin from Linux devices into some smaller devices and some things that are not necessarily running Linux but are still out in the real world, out in a customer environment or out in nature, wherever you have those devices that you want to be able to manage them. We want to wrap that into the Resin experience as well. It's really a constant process of refinement just based on what we see as the IoT develops. Again, it's a really exciting time to be in this industry. ELRICK: That is wonderful that you guys are keeping your finger on the pulse, in terms of your customer base and the feedback that you're getting to how people are using Resin and then implementing and looking for ways to improve the platform and then also open source and get your solutions into the hands of developers and into the hands of your customer base and that is a testament to just how wonderful Resin is as a company and as a platform. I think everyone out there should then go out and use Resin or at least attempt to use it because the entry into using Resin is very low. You can ramp up and start using it any time and extremely quickly. ALISON: We encourage anybody who is interested to sign up and it's free to get started. Your first five devices are always free. We have great support. We have a really active community forum so there's lots of people there to help guide you along. But as you said, the barrier to entry is quite low by design so really anybody should go ahead and try it out. If you have a Raspberry Pi sitting at home or at work, we like to say that you can get started over a lunch break and it should only take you about 30 minutes to get your first successful push and see your first Unicorn. ELRICK: That's awesome. You heard that. Go and use Resin and on your lunch break, you can see a Unicorn. Well, that's it for our podcast today folks. We had a wonderful podcast talking about Resin.io, the future of IoT, all the places that you can use Resin and how to deploy code all over the world, to all your embedded devices and all of your IoT devices. On behalf of Joe, Alison, Ronald, the Frontside and myself, I would like to thank you all for taking the time out to listen to this podcast. Remember you can reach us at Frontside.io. If you have any projects that you're working on and want to tell us about it, you can reach us there and you can also, if you want to learn anything further about Resin, you can head over to Resin.io and remember you can see that Unicorn at lunch time. That's it for the podcast today and thank you all for listening.
Carolyn: Welcome to Circulation on the Run. You're weekly podcast summary and backstage pass to the journal. I'm Dr. Carolyn Lam from the National Heart Center in Duke National University of Singapore. I am thrilled to be your host every week. Joining me today to introduce our podcast are two very very special guests. Dr. Joseph Hill from UT Southwestern is editor and chief of Circulation. Hi Joe. Joe: Pleasure to be here, Carolyn. Carolyn: Thanks, and your second guest, Dr Amit Kara is also from UT Southwestern and the associate editor for digital strategies of Circulation. Hi Amit. Amit: Hi, Carolyn. Happy to be here. Carolyn: No Joe and Amit, if you don't mind I'm going to start the ball rolling by sharing my little story of how these podcasts came to be. Now do you guys remember when we first talked about this? All right well I do. Joe: Absolutely. Carolyn: Ha ha because frankly, and I don't know if you know this Joe, it wasn't a very good day for me. I had just landed very early in the morning from a long trip and I was battling jet lag while trying to get a million things done such as unpack, clear my mail, get ready for work. You know, the usual. Of course the thing I needed most was to learn that I also needed to do weekly podcasts for Circulation right. So after our chat I did I suppose what a lot of us do when things seem a little bit overwhelming. I dropped everything and I headed for a run in the gym. But in the gym as always I was trying to multitask as well, so I brought my mobile device for my jog so that I could read my mail at the same time, you know. I can already see the smiles of everyone listening because I know you've done this before. Anyone who's done it will know what a pain it is trying to read while you're bouncing up and down on the treadmill. It was just at this point when I was about to go cross-eyed that the radio in the gym started to play the morning news and the news headlines. I remember thinking to myself, oh wow, how I wish I could have someone read my mail or at least the headlines of the mail to me so that I could get the gist of everything even while I was literally on the run. That's how the Circulation podcast idea came to me and hence it's name, Circulation on the Run. To me it's an audio summary of the headlines of the journal so that you the listener can in 15 minutes get caught up literally on the run or drive or whatever it is you're doing when you'd rather listen than read. Just so you know you haven't missed the big things. But in addition to getting an overview of the issues contents every week, you get main take home messages as a clinician. Because it will be dull to talk to myself every week I will be inviting an author, an editor, of a featured article of particular clinical significance so that we can give you a behind the scenes look of the paper. That is the idea of the Circulation podcast. Joe, how does this fit with your vision of the journal? Joe: Carolyn, I love your story behind the scenes on how this all got started and I really, truly appreciate your energy and leadership here. This is such an important endeavor for where we want to take the journal. In fact, your leadership here illustrates one of the major initiatives that we have started and that is a global footprint of editorial oversight for Circulation. We are afforded an extraordinary privilege here to see the best science as it emerges from all around the world and we want to do everything we can to make sure that the journal meets the needs of the clinicians, the practitioners, and the investigators everywhere in the world. Here you are leading this important initiative from your home base in Singapore. That's exactly what we're looking to foster and develop going forward. Carolyn: Oh Joe thanks so much for that. I really so appreciate this privilege of doing this and it's true that I'm a living example of the journal going global so to speak. I also really like the way you say that with this overwhelming knowledge that we're facing, we do need help to synthesize and synergize that information. Especially in the clinically oriented way. I think you made that very clear to us in your leadership of our editorial board. Thanks for that. Maybe speaking of trying to reach the world, social media and digital strategies play a big roll. Amit maybe you could tell us a little bit more about how the podcasts fit in your larger scheme for the journal. Amit: Absolutely and I just want to echo Joe's comments and thank you, Carolyn, for taking the lead of this important endeavor. We couldn't think of a better person to do so. When we look digital strategies we have to remember that the journal is producing so much valuable content. The authors are working very hard and creating such an immense amount of new knowledge. We have to appreciate that people consume knowledge in different ways. In the current era there's so many different ways to do that. One hand we still have the traditional print journal which is incredibly valuable and important. Has depth of information that certainly many and most people would want to investigate. But the other end of the spectrum we have our bite sized information which is Twitter and Facebook and so forth which certainly helps people sort of prioritize or are able to glean what's exciting that week and then they can go back and do a deeper dive. The podcast fits somewhere in between. I love what you said, Circulation on the Run, you're example was a great one for people who are wanting to consume this information but perhaps in a different way. The audio component and also a time component where they have 10 to 15 minutes to take in this information. Your vision for this is a great one. We'll have a brief component where you will review the weekly articles and people can then learn what's in the journal and what's the most important findings and content that week. Similarly they have the opportunity to really get to know an author and get to know some editors and to really get behind the scenes. This backstage pass if you will. We finally have to remember that we're appealing to a broad audience. People of different ages and around the world. People like to consume information in different ways. We really like to have this as an important part of our offering towards helping people consume this information. Carolyn: Oh Amit. I couldn't have said it better. Thank you so much. Just to be true to ethos. Let me remind everyone that it's going to be a 15 minute podcast and we're going to do our very best to compress all that you need to know into those 15 minutes. I just want to echo what you said that this is only part of the broader strategy and it doesn't mean that the print journal is dead in any way. In fact I am so excited to see the new journal. I don't know about you. It's got a whole new look. It is really really quite good looking, if I might say so. Everyone out there, you're going to expect this new journal on June 29th, 2016. Look out for it. Trust me. You won't be disappointed because there's also a very special little part of the cover that I'd like to discuss before we sign off. That is the doodle. Joe could you tell us a little bit more about the doodle? Joe: As you say the journal look I think is fantastic. It has a clean and modern look to it. The judicious use of color to highlight the different types of content, which as before spans a spectrum of basic science, the definition going forward is vertebrate models, pre clinical models, and disease oriented questions. Starting there, traversing through clinical science, population sciences, health services research, the entire spectrum. Again we are afforded an extraordinary privilege here to help frankly shape the future of cardiovascular medicine. We take that responsibility very seriously. That's why we've recruited an extraordinary team of editors from literally around the world. At the same time, we want to have a little fun. We want to make it fun and engaging as well as very very serious. As part of that, we've launched something that we're calling the Circulation Doodle. That is an idea that leverages the google.com website where I think everyone is familiar with. They, based on an event that occurred that day or week or month, they play around with the visual depiction of the word Google. We're going to do the same thing with Circulation. Every month we will reach out and solicit doodles from artists all around the world. Everyone who's listening to this podcast, I encourage you to think about this. Every month there will be a doodle theme. The first one for July will be Texas. Commemorating the fact that the journal headquarters is moving back to Texas after having been in Boston for 12 years. Previous to that it was under the leadership of Jim Willerson. It's coming back to Texas and the first Circulation doodle depicts a Texas theme. In fact, if you're interested you can find this in the April 25th issue of the journal where in the third of four notes from the incoming editor in that third one on April 25th, we show the first doodle. We're asking people to submit doodles according to monthly themes. The month of August will be vacation. I can tell you start thinking about ways in which you might incorporate a vacation theme in the depiction of the world Circulation for August and the one that comes in that's the best, that the editors like the most, it will be placed on the cover of the print journal and on the website for a full month. We've also conceived themes for the rest of the year all the way through to June of 2017, and in the first issue that comes out from our team, we will list those themes and you'll have plenty of time to start thinking about what you would like to submit. Then in subsequent years, those monthly themes will also evolve. We'd like to get people's ideas about issues that come up related to holidays or national heritage months. Things that we might not know about from our base in the US. We want to do that around the world. It's an opportunity to be creative at the level of themes, and again artistic depiction of the word circulation. Carolyn: I love that. Thank you so much Joe and that just exemplifies that we are all about science and all about having fun at the same time. That was a brilliant introduction to what our podcasts are going to be like as well. Thank you so much Joe and Amit for joining me today. Again, everyone, this was Circulation on the Run. Don't forget, first issue coming out 29th June, 2016.
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